Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:19:49 (GMT)
From: Jun 24, 2001 To: Jul 02, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Tim Matheson -:- The Essence of MY LORD MAHARAJI -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:19:58 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Well HE HE HE ------------ wot a laugh n/t -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 23:16:40 (GMT)
__ Wildflower -:- The Essence of MY LORD MAHARAJI -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 18:53:29 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- How do you explain that? Easy: M and K are BS - NT -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 19:05:54 (GMT)
__ Margie -:- Thank You -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:32:08 (GMT)
__ __ Toby -:- yes yes the maharaji is the god! god! god! -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:42:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- Nails are in the mail, Toby --NT -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 06:45:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- BuuuuuuRRP........nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:46:44 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- The Essence of MY LORD MAHARAJI -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:03:13 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- The Essence of MY LORD MAHARAJI -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 22:35:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- You mean he's not wondrous? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 23:42:06 (GMT)
__ Tim Matheson -:- No wonder HE tells us to be grateful to HIM (nt) -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:30:37 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- The GRATES of Wrath -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 23:20:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- My feelings, Francesca -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 10:26:17 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Is Maharaji Posting Or Rading Here? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:11:25 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Slackaraji? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:34:57 (GMT)
__ __ Rick -:- Slackaraji? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 18:37:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Slackaraji's Web Site Is Sickarajism -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 21:26:14 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Is Maharaji Posting Or Rading Here? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:36:48 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Who's Bill Burke? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:45:47 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Reading, not Rading nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:12:20 (GMT)

Sandy -:- The matter of heart and the heart of the matter -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 04:43:44 (GMT)
__ Scot J -:- Jesus, Joe and Jim. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 14:04:05 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Take a close look at this, Scot -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 15:05:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scot J -:- A very close look . . . -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 21:21:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- An even closer look ... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scot J -:- The continuing looks continue. -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:54:34 (GMT)
__ MK -:- Yes well, words can be and are so confusing. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 05:29:01 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Maybe you just can't find the right words, MK -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:48:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Correction -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- That's nonsense -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 15:49:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oh Yes! -:- That's cruelty to animals -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:19:33 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Words are confusing when used deceitfully -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 07:45:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ MK -:- Bull doodoo Patrick -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 14:13:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- How many pot brownies did you eat, Marolyn -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:31:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel Hawthorne -:- This will be the last time I address you if... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 08:24:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Hey Nigel... -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:16:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Insult to the name 'Nigel' -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:24:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- I do not talk to disdainful people. -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 13:17:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Magical thinking....moi? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 23:49:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Sandy and Marolyn, the spirit moves me to answer -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:08:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Sounds good -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:47:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***WARNING! NEW AGE RUBBER TALK!*** -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:40:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Have some courage Jim, for Chrissake! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:54:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Thomas Jefferson was a magical thinker too... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 00:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bullshit! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:42:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Professor SuchaBanana -:- * heart vs. head, according to Thomas Jefferson * -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:31:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- * heart vs. head, according to Thomas Jefferson * -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:04:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I may not be on the same deck as Mr. Jefferson -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:02:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Through the magical medium of cyber space... -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:57:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- u r welcome (nt -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 06:26:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Oh, right, I forgot... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 04:02:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why your new age rubber talk sucks -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 15:47:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Why your argument blows -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 16:50:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SAndy -:- And while I have your attention, Jim... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 16:54:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Okay, it was a cheap shot, Sandy -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 01:11:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Spirits in the material world -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:00:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Spirits in the material world - lost body parts -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 05:15:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Duh -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 11:55:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Duh, counselor -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:13:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Boy, you really thought hard on this one! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 15:39:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Boy, you really thought hard on this one! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:15:31 (GMT)

Gina -:- What I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 22:51:13 (GMT)
__ Gina -:- Might try to do the nectar again, if I can get my -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:52:47 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Yes Gina. Nectar is snot. It's Official. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:02:05 (GMT)
__ __ Joni Mitchell (official) -:- Like I said, 'God must be a booger, man' (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:34:09 (GMT)
__ __ Victoria Bitter -:- And Anth is a know all prat -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:27:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC channeling Thelma -:- And Victoria Bitter is actually Catweasel -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 18:18:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- here pussy pussy -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:43:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scot J -:- He's only 'tweasing us. NT -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 21:34:27 (GMT)
__ __ Gina -:- Actual weight...contents may have settled -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:18:06 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Not taking what Anth will say -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:44:33 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- generally known as 'Kechari Mudra' - links -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- What a stupid statement -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 07:23:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Seriously, Mili ... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 13:20:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mili -:- Fine -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:46:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Fine -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:04:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Of course, oh omniscient one. (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 12:40:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gina -:- 'And he never sounded like a very good... -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 15:03:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 'And he never sounded like a very good... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 14:09:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gina -:- Yes! 'God's' self-appointed middlemen/women! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 15:33:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes! 'God's' self-appointed middlemen/women! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:35:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Hello Again -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 14:40:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Hello Again Again -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 04:07:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Thanks Again -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 06:39:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Hi Anna -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:29:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Hi Steve -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:26:39 (GMT)
__ __ Gina -:- 'Doing the nectar is the best way I've found...' -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:55:04 (GMT)
__ janet -:- there really is a nectar, gina. for real. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:01:00 (GMT)
__ __ Gina -:- 'it let me literally hold my tongue...' -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:29:50 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Don't forget Santa Claus -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 09:54:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gina -:- Yes, Virginia, there is.....sigh. nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:42:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- sorry, but there ain't no sanity clause... (nt -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:45:32 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- yes (nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:15:34 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- neck-tar was great;stretching tongue wasn't!(s)not -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 06:37:06 (GMT)
__ __ Gina -:- '(s)not' nectar, it's snot. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:38:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- you're welcome -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 06:29:34 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- kechari mudra; most phlegm-buoyant of techs! (nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 06:40:58 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- What I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:31:09 (GMT)
__ __ Gina -:- Just as I suspected, it's just so much hooey. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 04:20:09 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- That ''nectar'' was air-freshener, Jerry -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Pat: Once again,extraordinary insight.ThanksLOL nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 07:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gina -:- Was it that 'hooey-scent' air freshener?! nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 04:25:04 (GMT)
__ Timmi -:- What I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:31:47 (GMT)
__ __ Gina -:- Girl, I am so glad I made you smile! -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:11:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Timmi -:- Girl, I am so glad I made you smile! -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 21:55:38 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- You're onto something, Timmi. Silence is golden. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 01:29:56 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Superb Post, Gina -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:25:23 (GMT)
__ __ Gina -:- Thanks so much, Steve, for putting up that link -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:59:38 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Nectar = snot? It's not. It's just more guru-jism. -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:12:29 (GMT)
__ __ Gina -:- Guru-jism. Oh, I was supposed to swallow. Got it. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:27:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Guru-jism. Yep, some of us swallowed it hook, line -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:45:51 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- Nectar = snot? -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:40:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gina -:- Thank you for describing your experience in detail -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:33:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- Thank you for describing -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:03:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Nectar = snot? It's not salty. It's not sweet. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 01:34:00 (GMT)

FattyPNE -:- Divine Light -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:23:49 (GMT)
__ clarence clear -:- Divine Light Me neither -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:29:39 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- LSD plus desperation plus ignorance = -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:14:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bryn -:- I wandered in projecting youthful self-delusion... -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:29:49 (GMT)

Way -:- Pia gearing up? -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:10:01 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Pigs will fly first................nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:47:08 (GMT)

Suchabanana -:- m. and EV slip on a bunch of banana skins! -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:33:23 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- A perfect example of how history is bunk -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:39:00 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- yer welcome (nt -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 06:31:54 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Oh, Glen Whittaker! ''...born KING of yogis?'' -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 01:26:39 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- yeah, thought 'twas a curious EV 'translation'(nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:42:29 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Yet another Lord -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:16:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ wolfie -:- Yet another Lord -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:42:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Lahari Krishna: He alone is Holy! Holy!! Holy!!! -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:43:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- How many God incarnates? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:43:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- their arti -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:26:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- their arti is crappier than ours .. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 20:14:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- it's like deja vu - oy vey!!!! Leapin' lizards!(nt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill-christ! even now he -:- slams and lies about his mom. -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:29:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- If Hindus did not cremate corpses the Holy Cow -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 08:23:26 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Maharaji's Obsolescence -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:26:01 (GMT)
__ clarence clear -:- Maharaji's Obsolescence -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:16:15 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- A Treat - Quotes From The Great King -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:53:43 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- A sensible not space-cadet post, Steve. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:38:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Thanks For The Feedback, Pat -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:53:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks For The Offer, Steve, But I'll Pass. -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:36:54 (GMT)

clarence clear -:- Help! I've just been to Pia's site -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:16:04 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Help! I've just been to Pia's site -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 00:43:08 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Help! I've just been to Pia's site -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:28:21 (GMT)
__ __ clarence clear -:- Pia's site blind spot -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:35:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Leave no room for doubt in your pop. -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:47:37 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- As long as they keep reciting the 'hate' label -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:46:03 (GMT)
__ __ clarence clear -:- Thanks re Hate -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:04:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Many posts have been sent to Pia -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:17:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ clarence clear -:- Many posts have been sent to Pia ***Says it all -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:31:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Many posts have been sent to Pia ***Says it all -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 22:33:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Clarification: by 'their stuff' -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:18:31 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Best of Forum page updated/customized -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 15:37:26 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Das isht goot -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:54:43 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Un medal pour ce bloke. -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:30:44 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- Bravo, JM -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:58:36 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- I'll have to raise the fees next year ! (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:51:49 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Merci, J-M, you are such a busy little bee -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:53:56 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- Very Good! The catagories really help (nt) -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 18:34:35 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Very Good! Way to go JM- excellent work! -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:13:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mark -:- One Stop Shopping for SELF Mastery -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 22:44:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Hi Mark, How are you? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:10:33 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:19:58 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Essence of MY LORD MAHARAJI
Message:
All I can say is HE can drink 'til HE's falling down drunk, HE can deny knowledge of that pervert Jagdeo and HE can carouse with blonde women all HE wants. HE showed me these techniques and even if I could have found them elsewhere, HE told me I wanted them.

Now, HE tells me this life is so wonderful and without this breath I wouldn't be around to see how wonderful it is. I stand in awe of MY LORD MAHARAJI's unique wisdom.

OH LORD, please let YOUR thoughts be mine.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 23:16:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: Well HE HE HE ------------ wot a laugh n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 18:53:29 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: The Essence of MY LORD MAHARAJI
Message:
Some Questions To Consider:

1. Would you still have breath inside to enjoy without Maharaji?
2. What makes his message unique? Doesn't Zen have the same respect for breath? How about many other forms of meditation and those who teach them? Isn't breath meditation pretty common to most of them as one of their techniques?
3. Is practicing K about practicing techniques or about adoration of a master?

I can verify that practicing the techniques without adoration of M has brought me experiences of being filled with love, oneness with the universe, and peace of mind. These experiences are indistinguishable to me from the ones I had practicing the same techniques when I was adoring M. The only difference was that the adoration was missing.

I can also verify that I have heard other people who practice other forms of meditative practice describe experiences which sound similar, if not identical, to mine. These people never heard of M. As a matter of fact, a number of them have no guru at all, and they don't know each other and they use a wide array of practices to arrive at this state. How do you explain that?

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 19:05:54 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: How do you explain that? Easy: M and K are BS - NT
Message:
j
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:32:08 (GMT)
From: Margie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Thank You
Message:
I'm overwhelmed by the complements and good wishes received on this find web site. Any attention is better than no attention at all.
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:42:20 (GMT)
From: Toby
Email: None
To: Margie
Subject: yes yes the maharaji is the god! god! god!
Message:
Oh yeah ,

maharaji is the holy Lord , yeah listen to us.
He is the god who created everything and is our papa and mama.

The god ,god, god, holy spirit , jesus christ , every master in
one, kiss his feet , chew his footnails.

and when anybody says (even he himself, for monetary reasons,we understand,!lila! ) he is not, we don't
fucking care, because we believe that for so long.

So that's it and now a heavy fart.
Ah that feels good.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 06:45:55 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Toby
Subject: Nails are in the mail, Toby --NT
Message:
are best with chutney
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:46:44 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Toby
Subject: BuuuuuuRRP........nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:03:13 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: The Essence of MY LORD MAHARAJI
Message:
Now, HE tells me this life is so wonderful and without this breath I wouldn't be around to see how wonderful it is. I stand in awe of MY LORD MAHARAJI's unique wisdom.

You too? Isn't it wondrous? How wise is our Lord. How blessed are we.

Swoon.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 22:35:36 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: tim
Subject: The Essence of MY LORD MAHARAJI
Message:
There are lots of people who say life is wonderful, and pointing out that you need to breath to stay alive isn't really all that wise, is it? The point is, you can meditate all you like, but miragey takes all your time and money if you let him, and when you look back on your life, what have you really done? Suppose for a moment all the people on this site who have discovered he's a hypocrite and doesn't care for premies at all (those who've been close to him OFF stage) are right? Can you imagine how horrible it will be if one day you look back and see your life as wasted...you'd be pretty pissed off too!
Loving someone you don't really know is easy, it's your own fantasy, so it's perfect...Then, when reality hits, it's a shock, believe me. Better be really sure he's not lying to you and distracting you from the things you could be doing and learning for yourself. 'Let your thoughts become mine' is a dangerous abdication of the very thing that makes life fun and interesting - thinking and finding out for yourself. Do you want to think the thoughts of a drunk, anyway? Is that your idea of devotion - the enlightenment bit, that's too much work, isn't it?
It's sad to see you so far away from the shore of reality - you think you're waving, by the time you realise you're drowning it might be too late. Here, climb into this life-boat and think for a minute...It's o.k to use the brain you were given, you know. It's a challenge. Try it and see...
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 23:42:06 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: You mean he's not wondrous?
Message:
Seriously, CJ, I was only joking. Parody I think it's called. Irony. Sarcasm. Something along those lines. Thanks for all the good feedback, though. It's the first time anybody responded to me thinking I was a premie. I have to tell you, if I still was one, you just gave a pretty convincing argument why I shouldn't be :)
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:30:37 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Lovers of OUR LORD MAHARA
Subject: No wonder HE tells us to be grateful to HIM (nt)
Message:
as
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 23:20:46 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: The GRATES of Wrath
Message:
Ain't gonna work on Margie's farm no more. The teacher from whom one needs liberation.

Boiling shriek crapguru dev tax-a-dodge key hey!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 10:26:17 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: My feelings, Francesca
Message:
With much gratitude, I bow down to YOU and thank YOU for all you've done-

-Thank YOU for allowing many of us to spend the productive years of our lives in building YOUR DIVINE RESIDENCE

_Thank YOU for all the times YOU let us wait in those long lines to give you our money and Kiss YOUR HOLY LOTUS FEETS

-Thank YOU for YOUR strong insistence that it was in our best interest to feel gratitude to YOU

-Thank YOU for YOUR DIVINE LILA especially in regards to the Jagdeo sexual abuse issue-for as we all know from your teachings neither Jagdeo or his many victims really exist-all that exists is YOU

-Thank YOU for showing me by your example in YOUR own life that it's ok to drink, drug, smoke and be unfaithful to my wife-for they are just illusions-all that exists is you

-Thank YOU for being YOU and somehow making me think I should be like YOU

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:11:25 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Is Maharaji Posting Or Rading Here?
Message:
Somebody recently asked the question ss to why Maharaji isn't posting or reading here.

In my opinion, he is posting here. To me, he represents the spirit of 'slackness', of form with no substance. There are so many postings here with form and no substance that I think he is here in spirit, if not in form.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:34:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Slackaraji?
Message:
The words 'slack' and 'slacker' fit the bastard really well, IMO. From Encarta:
slack slacker
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 18:37:45 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Slackaraji?
Message:
Well, if it's slack you're looking for . . . http://www.subgenius.com/
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 21:26:14 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Rick
Subject: Slackaraji's Web Site Is Sickarajism
Message:
Some interesting shit on that site, Rick. Thanks.

I was just looking at Slackaraji's web site, if you can call it that. Sick looking site if I've ever seen one. Oh well, we fucked up following that idiot for x number of years, what can I say. Time to heal the past and move on, I suppose.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:36:48 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Is Maharaji Posting Or Rading Here?
Message:
Yes. Maharaji is the poster called Bill Burke, I'm sure of it.
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:45:47 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Who's Bill Burke?
Message:
Sounds like the name of a pamcake. Speaking of pamcakes, what ever happened to Michael Dettmers?

Steve

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:12:20 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Reading, not Rading nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 04:43:44 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The matter of heart and the heart of the matter
Message:
So much emphasis on the heart...

For those of you who find no credence in scriptures, please stop reading now and don't waste your time sending me your opinions about how you don't believe in anything about them, or what a jerk I am to give them any space. I respect you right to your opinion, but let's not waste space, OK?

Maharaji talks alot about the heart and how it must be heard and followed and so forth. I was reading the other day and came across some quotes from the Bible about the heart, from both the old and new testaments. There seems to be a very big difference between how the heart is recognized and its attributes now and then.

Jeremiah described man's nature by saying:
'The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it?' He even said that man's heart was so evil that God would curse the man who trusted in a man.

Jesus Christ said, according to certain books:
'For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts,
adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness...All these things come from within and defile the man.'

The use of the word 'heart' can be very cuddly and warm and fuzzy, but when one considers the words of our forebearers, one takes pause...

I think it's all in there, the good, bad and ugly. What comes out of who and when is the proof in the pudding. Actions speak louder than words.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 14:04:05 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Jesus, Joe and Jim.
Message:
One comment I liked - I forget where I heard this - was, 'Jesus said, 'Be innocent as lambs and wise as sepents.' The innocence of lambs is heavily stressed in Christianity, and the wisdom of serpents much omitted.' This is my paraphrase. Too lazy to look up the exact words.

'Actions speak louder than words' - well said, Sandy. And yeah, I know you didn't make that one up. But M really does, or should I say DID try to get you to leave your powers of judgement behind, let alone looking at the gap between his words and his actions. More lamb favoritism. No serpents are allowed.

To tell (what I think is) the truth, M has changed everything around so much, I don't know what to think of his new approachs these days, simply because it's completely a new ballgame, new rules all 'round. I just got thrown out of his car ride on one of those many curves, I imagine. Now I'm walking on my own, I don't need to worry about the curves on the HOW TO PRESENT KNOWLEDGE road. I hate PR slickness by temperament, not only M's. This may be inexcusable to some here on EPO, but I wish him well. But it's a kind of goodbye, glad to be gone wishing him well.

I took note of Suchabanana’s banana post below, where M’s words : 'When you slip on a banana skin, you can’t blame the banana or the person who threw it there. It was you, through a moment of unconsciousness, who didn’t look where you were walking.' could be converted to “ When you drive your luxury automobile over some bicyclist on the road and kill him, you can’t blame the bicycle or the guy who drove it in front of your speeding machine. It was you, through a moment of unconsciousness, who didn’t look where you were driving.” So much for the words part. The action part? That’s where the devotee comes in. No prob. He talks the talk. YOU walk his walk.

I remember Joe Anctil telling one of his stories about having to deal with someone - a mahatma, I believe - who was an idiot, and going to M to complain, and M telling him the “one finger points at him, but 3 fingers point back at you’ proverb. And even though I at the time definitely perceived M as Enlightened Master, I did NOT like that proverb. It was like a Jim Heller answer, when you are trying (sorry Jim, but you are such a case-in-point for many complaint issues) to pin him down on something : he diverts your attention back to yourself, rather than on the issue you think is important. One feels one is cheated.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 15:05:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: Take a close look at this, Scot
Message:
It was like a Jim Heller answer, when you are trying (sorry Jim, but you are such a case-in-point for many complaint issues) to pin him down on something : he diverts your attention back to yourself, rather than on the issue you think is important. One feels one is cheated.

I resent the suggestion that I've said anything here in any exchange with you that was evasive. Perhaps you feel 'cheated' because you just couldn't sustain your initial point once you had to defend it in discussion. If you feel 'cheated' maybe it's just because you weren't playing a winning hand. There's a big difference between losing, if you will, and being cheated. Don't you agree?

You know, we were talking, you and I, about whatever that semantic thing was .... oh yeah, 'rationality'. Here's how we left it:

[Scot]: But what about this one : Say you are the fish in the tank who’s function is to clean the tank, and draw sustenance from so doing. All the irrational debris floating out of various heads around the Forum V goldfish bowl, you latch onto it and do a number. Par excellence. My question : what if you owned the tank, and saw this most necessary fish cleaning up the other (alarmed) fish and not waiting till their debris actually detached from their scales?

That analogy is unfair. This is a discussion board. Once you've said something, it's out there, subject to the whole spectrum of responses. It's not as if I stopped you mid-sentence or anything. And it's not like a friendly game of chess where you still have your hand on your piece when I jump in to make my next move. Forget it, Scot, it ain't like that at all. Instead, people say things and other people comment. The 'debris', if you want, is already fallen.

That was the last exchange. Did I somehow 'divert the attention' back on you? Did you feel 'cheated'? If so how and why? I say we were just talking and that's about it.

Then, simultaneously, I was looking forward to your reaction to that long expose news article I'd posted about Ms. Schaefer who you'd invoked as some sort of source of wisdom. You never commented. Why? Did the article make you feel 'cheated'?

What's up, Scot?

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 21:21:32 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A very close look . . .
Message:
Take a close look at this, Scot
Message:  

[Scot ] It was like a Jim Heller answer, when you are trying (sorry Jim, but you are such a case-in-point for many complaint issues) to pin him down on something : he diverts your attention back to yourself, rather than on the issue you think is important. One feels one is cheated.

[Jim] I resent the suggestion that I've said anything here in any exchange with you that was evasive. Perhaps you feel 'cheated' because you just couldn't sustain your initial point once you had to defend it in discussion. If you feel 'cheated' maybe it's just because you weren't playing a winning hand. There's a big difference between losing, if you will, and being cheated. Don't you agree?

SCOT : I admit to agreeing, but I limit my agreement to the “big difference between losing and being cheated.”

[Jim] You know, we were talking, you and I, about whatever that semantic thing was .... oh yeah, 'rationality'. Here's how we left it:

[Scot]: But what about this one : Say you are the fish in the tank who’s function is to clean the tank, and draw sustenance from so doing. All the irrational debris floating out of various heads around the Forum V goldfish bowl, you latch onto it and do a number. Par excellence. My question : what if you owned the tank, and saw this most necessary fish cleaning up the other (alarmed) fish and not waiting till their debris actually detached from their scales?

[Jim] That analogy is unfair. This is a discussion board. Once you've said something, it's out there, subject to the whole spectrum of responses. It's not as if I stopped you mid-sentence or anything. And it's not like a friendly game of chess where you still have your hand on your piece when I jump in to make my next move. Forget it, Scot, it ain't like that at all. Instead, people say things and other people comment. The 'debris', if you want, is already fallen.

SCOT : As I think of an answer, I can’t help but imagine Sandy or someone else rolling their eyes at us as we get into this to me highly amusing debate again, from the inactive portion of FV, now. Will we go on to occupy most of their thread?

But I do like going over stuff with you. It’s my impression that we have such different brains. This could be a good combo, like that team of moose in the old cartoon. One moose had a big body but tiny antlers, the other had huge antlers, but a tiny body. Anyway, let me see . . .

The way I see the ForumV is as not ONLY a discussion board. As Peter Howie posted below,

“As for this site - posters and lurkers are at various points with regards MJ. Some come here for preparation - to find out, read about and don't conclude anything at that point and they are not stupid becasue of it. Some for verification - they have concluded or illuminated and are checking their ideas out. Some are clearly in an incubation phase - they are not clear - they are hesitant and swap sides even as they post (and consequently drive Jim, and others mad) and that is required. This isn't about rote learing or rote-unlearning. Some read something here and voila - illumination - something clicks/drips for them either in the way things are said, or the quality of the information or the reputation of the person or because they knew the person - and thank god then some decent verification can follow it up.”

I like his analysis of the site. What do you think of these ideas? Anyway, my comment is that you do seem to jump in on some or most of the “incubation phase” posts as if they were in the “verification phase.” My most current example of you doing this is :

MK wrote:
All we've got to go on is what we feel. I think the lesson is learning to trust that and be happy with the outcome.
stay well Sandy,
MK

Jim responded:
Even when I was first allowing myself to slip into the murky, tepid bath of new-age thinking, I was aware of the hypocrisy in talking this way. You're relying on words and concepts to say that you can't trust words and concepts. When you gonna grow up?

SCOT :Like, my personal reaction is laughter. I find myself quite in agreement with what you say. But then I think, you are misunderstanding MK because she is not putting this forward as a logical argument, this “all we’ve got to go on is what we feel.” I don’t think so, anyway. She’s just expressing friendly feelings to Sandy. This may be overreacting on your part.

JIM: That was the last exchange. Did I somehow 'divert the attention' back on you? Did you feel 'cheated'? If so how and why? I say we were just talking and that's about it.

Then, simultaneously, I was looking forward to your reaction to that long expose news article I'd posted about Ms. Schaefer who you'd invoked as some sort of source of wisdom. You never commented. Why? Did the article make you feel 'cheated'?

What's up, Scot?

SCOT: This particular exchange wasn’t one I was thinking of when I complained about you diverting the attention. Consider these exchanges of ours, from the inactive file : [Scot] Learning to love, to trust, is also learning, no? [Jim] Again, you didn't catch my drift apparently. And : [Scot] But do you admit there can be such a thing as “too rational”? [Jim} Scot, your last two sentences address the real problem here which is really just one of semantics.

Maybe you have an explanation for the seeming tendency here to “divert attention back on to myself”? Anyway, that’s what I was thinking of when I complained about discussions with you.

As for your expose on Schaef, I consider this a bonus, not a cheat. It was great, and the family member who supplied the Schaef quotes is going to visit us in a week or two and she will get the expose, too.

I admit to finding her insights into perfectionism and addictions very stimulating and enlightening. She is a cult leader, too? Maybe it takes one to know one? Or, maybe it could be that she is very iffy when it comes to her personal life, but dead on when it comes to her theory. Theorists may have to be considered like many artists, Charles Bukowski comes to mind. I read his books and I love the unique sense of freedom and humour but would I have wanted to associate with him? For even ONE pub crawl? My guess is NO! Hey! Again, you are not commenting on her theory of perfectionists being addictives, but “diverting the attention back onto her personal life.” Ah ha!

I do qualify my admiration for Schaef’s theory, as I did in my now inactive comment to Katie, that :

“I offer the Schaef quotes as a way of understanding what goes on with M. The multiple addictions - he sure fits the 'perfectionist' bill perfectly. You sound like a kindred spirit, who has learned to walk as well as empathize. I feel compassion for M, but I am GONE. And if I set an example for those still on his boat, I say good. I agree that (Schaef) goes too far, painting her perception over too wide an area, but I found her full of insight in the Recovery field, as you call it. I much appreciate the non-recent EX long views, by the way. “

I wondered when I first read Peter Howie’s post if you would find that Peter’s source, Berne Neville, was actually wanted in 14 countries for some abusive scam or other, no doubt of cult orientation. You did shock me, but I was pleased with the Schaef findings, all in all. I consider you a good influence on my brain. You get me clear. It is a scary thought, btw, that we may be fulfilling a function in M’s world, still, that of the digestive and excretory system. Some current believers in M apparently consider the EPO site that way. It’s good, they think - it gets the shit out of the M world. I sigh.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:18:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scot J
Subject: An even closer look ...
Message:
As I think of an answer, I can’t help but imagine Sandy or someone else rolling their eyes at us as we get into this to me highly amusing debate again, from the inactive portion of FV, now. Will we go on to occupy most of their thread?

Sandy?? Sorry, Scot, but the last person I'd ever turn to for quality control in terms of reasoning is Sandy. (Well, one of the last. Have you checked out the crew on 'Lifes Great [sic]' yet?) Hell, this is something to talk about. It's not insignificant or irrelevant. It's not as if we're just going in circles. No embarrassment, no apologies.

As for what Peter says, I don't disagree. But there's a difference between dealing with peoples' indecision and discussing matters rationally. If someone said to me they thought Maharaji was the Lord, I wouldn't jump on them at all. I'd just talk with them. The moment they started to shuck and jive, however, yeah, I lose my respect and don't mind showing it.

... I think, you are misunderstanding MK because she is not putting this forward as a logical argument, this “all we’ve got to go on is what we feel.” I don’t think so, anyway. She’s just expressing friendly feelings to Sandy. This may be overreacting on your part.

No way, Jose. What she said was this:

All we've got to go on is what we feel. I think the lesson is learning to trust that and be happy with the outcome.

It might not be an argument but it certainly is a statement with truth value. That is, it's either true or not. It's not a hug so much as a new age 'reminder' of some non-existing truth. Again, no apologies. If all she wants to say is 'hi' she should say it. But no, she's got much more to share. That's what I fel anyway and don't forget, Scot, all we've got to go on is what we feel. I think the lesson is learning to trust that and be happy with the outcome. Yech!

This particular exchange wasn’t one I was thinking of when I complained about you diverting the attention. Consider these exchanges of ours, from the inactive file : [Scot] Learning to love, to trust, is also learning, no? [Jim] Again, you didn't catch my drift apparently. And : [Scot] But do you admit there can be such a thing as “too rational”? [Jim} Scot, your last two sentences address the real problem here which is really just one of semantics.

Maybe you have an explanation for the seeming tendency here to “divert attention back on to myself”? Anyway, that’s what I was thinking of when I complained about discussions with you.

I don't follow you at all here. What are you talking about?

As for your expose on Schaef, I consider this a bonus, not a cheat. It was great, and the family member who supplied the Schaef quotes is going to visit us in a week or two and she will get the expose, too.

Just curious, why didn't you say so? Why'd I have to bug you to respond?

I admit to finding her insights into perfectionism and addictions very stimulating and enlightening.

I don't. Like I said when you first posted her stuff, she sounds like a fool to me.

She is a cult leader, too? Maybe it takes one to know one?

What's that supposed to mean?

Or, maybe it could be that she is very iffy when it comes to her personal life, but dead on when it comes to her theory.

Sure, that's possible. Only problem is her theory is far from dead on.

Theorists may have to be considered like many artists, Charles Bukowski comes to mind. I read his books and I love the unique sense of freedom and humour but would I have wanted to associate with him? For even ONE pub crawl? My guess is NO!

It's not going to do you much good comparing theorists with artists. The former have to be rational to be effective, the latter don't. Bukowski doesn't have to make sense at all. Schaef does. As for whether you like either the theorists or artists whose work you enjoy, well that's a different question. Both could piss you off on a personal level -- or not. It's the same with either.

Hey! Again, you are not commenting on her theory of perfectionists being addictives, but “diverting the attention back onto her personal life.” Ah ha!

'Ah ha!' yourself, big guy. I did indeed comment on her theory before I said anything else about her. What I did, in particular, was find and post the first chapter of her book (subject: 'This writer's an idiot -- where'd you find her?'). All I added was a somewhat rhetorical 'need I say more?'. Nobody seemed to want to actually talk about that chapter and then I poked around a bit further and found the article I posted. So I started talking about her ideas but turned to something more fun when I found I was talking to myself. (It happens.)

The way I see it, her ideas are so painfully cliched, wrong, histrionic or, alternatively, inscrutable, I'm not going to wade in there with a fork when a pitch fork will do. But you want to talk about her ideas? Scot, for you my friend, my time is yours. Let's do it!

I do qualify my admiration for Schaef’s theory, as I did in my now inactive comment to Katie, that :

“I offer the Schaef quotes as a way of understanding what goes on with M. The multiple addictions - he sure fits the 'perfectionist' bill perfectly.

Sorry, but to me, Maharaji is far, far, FAR from being anyone's definition of a perfectionist. As I said to you in another reply to your original post about her which you didn't respond to, I think you're confusing someone who strives for perfection with someone who pretends he's without fault. Want to talk about it?

[Scot to Katie from before] You sound like a kindred spirit, who has learned to walk as well as empathize. I feel compassion for M, but I am GONE. And if I set an example for those still on his boat, I say good. I agree that (Schaef) goes too far, painting her perception over too wide an area, but I found her full of insight in the Recovery field, as you call it. I much appreciate the non-recent EX long views, by the way. “

I wondered when I first read Peter Howie’s post if you would find that Peter’s source, Berne Neville, was actually wanted in 14 countries for some abusive scam or other, no doubt of cult orientation. You did shock me, but I was pleased with the Schaef findings, all in all. I consider you a good influence on my brain. You get me clear. It is a scary thought, btw, that we may be fulfilling a function in M’s world, still, that of the digestive and excretory system. Some current believers in M apparently consider the EPO site that way. It’s good, they think - it gets the shit out of the M world. I sigh.

Don't know about Neville. Thanks for the compliment but no, it doesn't bother me that premies might say that. It's a desperate stop-gap. At least I hope it is. Shit, can you imagine spending the rest of our lives being some sort of perverse quality control for Maharaji? Naw, I don't think it's really what's happening. Well, we'll see.

Hi Norma(l)!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:54:34 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The continuing looks continue.
Message:
Jim responded:

'As I think of an answer, I can’t help but imagine Sandy or someone else rolling their eyes at us as we get into this to me highly amusing debate again, from the inactive portion of FV, now. Will we go on to occupy most of their thread?'

Sandy?? Sorry, Scot, but the last person I'd ever turn to for quality control in terms of reasoning is Sandy. (Well, one of the last. Have you checked out the crew on 'Lifes Great [sic]' yet?) Hell, this is something to talk about. It's not insignificant or irrelevant. It's not as if we're just going in circles. No embarrassment, no apologies.

SCOT SAYS : I just mean, we are in his thread, but straying far off his original message. I’m none too serious, btw; Mr. S. seems pretty tolerant. I have looked at a couple of those (sic) sites. (IT AINT SO.) Is this (sic)ness contageous? Oh yeah - “quality control in terms of reasoning”? I’m not imagining him interested in our reasonings.

'... I think, you are misunderstanding MK because she is not putting this forward as a logical argument, this “all we’ve got to go on is what we feel.” I don’t think so, anyway. She’s just expressing friendly feelings to Sandy. This may be overreacting on your part.'

No way, Jose. What she said was this:

All we've got to go on is what we feel. I think the lesson is learning to trust that and be happy with the outcome.

It might not be an argument but it certainly is a statement with truth value. That is, it's either true or not. It's not a hug so much as a new age 'reminder' of some non-existing truth. Again, no apologies. If all she wants to say is 'hi' she should say it. But no, she's got much more to share. That's what I fel anyway and don't forget, Scot, all we've got to go on is what we feel. I think the lesson is learning to trust that and be happy with the outcome. Yech!

SCOT SAYS : You make me laugh and make me see your point. But, my opinion is, after all, the same. If she posted this directly to you, I’d have no opinion about it. But, after all, this was not TO you, although, admittedly it is on a Forum.

'This particular exchange wasn’t one I was thinking of when I complained about you diverting the attention. Consider these exchanges of ours, from the inactive file : [Scot] Learning to love, to trust, is also learning, no? [Jim] Again, you didn't catch my drift apparently. And : [Scot] But do you admit there can be such a thing as “too rational”? [Jim} Scot, your last two sentences address the real problem here which is really just one of semantics.

Maybe you have an explanation for the seeming tendency here to “divert attention back on to myself”? Anyway, that’s what I was thinking of when I complained about discussions with you.'

I don't follow you at all here. What are you talking about?

SCOT SAYS : I give an example. You could have answered my first question (Learning to love, to trust, is also learning, no?) with something like, “Yes, I agree, but . . .” or “No, I don’t buy that at all, because . . .” but instead I find out that I did not catch your drift. This is what I mean. It’s like, maybe you thought it was a rhetorical question - but it wasn’t.

'As for your expose on Schaef, I consider this a bonus, not a cheat. It was great, and the family member who supplied the Schaef quotes is going to visit us in a week or two and she will get the expose, too.'

Just curious, why didn't you say so? Why'd I have to bug you to respond?

SCOT SAYS : As you know, my ISP is pretty slow (not to mention my turtle thinking processes) and I often post something and take off and I don’t always remember to mention everything I think of. For being officially unemployed, I’ve been fairly busy lately. The director at the Con just handed me this 500 page book today. He liked it and said I would enjoy reading it and would like to hear my comments. I flipped to the back page and the final sentence was, “For, in pianism, as in physiology, ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.” I’ll try and e-mail it to you, if you’d like.

'I admit to finding her insights into perfectionism and addictions very stimulating and enlightening.'

I don't. Like I said when you first posted her stuff, she sounds like a fool to me.

SCOT SAYS : You are in complete agreement here with some people who very much trust Maharaji. NOBODY liked these quotes. I don’t mind going over them, to probably learn something. We are agreed, are we not, that M does exhibit addictive behaviour? And I don’t care to get into WHETHER or not he is or isn’t perfect, that’s beside the point. But he does call himself, and has been called for quite a while, the Perfect Master. I’m trying to understand how he sees himself. If he is insincere, I would have trouble with that, because it would mean my “sincerity meter” has not been working for sooooo long. (Continued below.)

'She is a cult leader, too? Maybe it takes one to know one?'

What's that supposed to mean?

SCOT SAYS : You know, like, to catch a thief? (It takes a thief.)

'Or, maybe it could be that she is very iffy when it comes to her personal life, but dead on when it comes to her theory.'

Sure, that's possible. Only problem is her theory is far from dead on.

'Theorists may have to be considered like many artists, Charles Bukowski comes to mind. I read his books and I love the unique sense of freedom and humour but would I have wanted to associate with him? For even ONE pub crawl? My guess is NO!'

It's not going to do you much good comparing theorists with artists. The former have to be rational to be effective, the latter don't. Bukowski doesn't have to make sense at all. Schaef does. As for whether you like either the theorists or artists whose work you enjoy, well that's a different question. Both could piss you off on a personal level -- or not. It's the same with either.

SCOT SAYS : We see things differently. You are such a rationality afficionado that you can’t help but seeing things through - permit me this - a rationality lens. For example, my point about Schaef is just that I, personally, like her theory, like I enjoy reading Buke - whether it’s rational or not (but I want to go on and discuss whether it really is worthy of the word “rational”.) It’s my way of saying that her personal life - I’m trying to put this in terms I think you’ll agree with - has no necessary relation to her ideas, whether those ideas are fiction or non-fiction. That’s all. I’m not saying she doesn’t have to be rational.

'Hey! Again, you are not commenting on her theory of perfectionists being addictives, but “diverting the attention back onto her personal life.” Ah ha!'

'Ah ha!' yourself, big guy. I did indeed comment on her theory before I said anything else about her. What I did, in particular, was find and post the first chapter of her book (subject: 'This writer's an idiot -- where'd you find her?'). All I added was a somewhat rhetorical 'need I say more?'. Nobody seemed to want to actually talk about that chapter and then I poked around a bit further and found the article I posted. So I started talking about her ideas but turned to something more fun when I found I was talking to myself. (It happens.)

SCOT SAYS : BUT! To me, you are providing another good example right here of approaching the argument “ad hominum” - is that a legal term? In your own words, “This writer’s an idiot.” Next, I point out, that I agree that you did print a page of her work.

The way I see it, her ideas are so painfully cliched, wrong, histrionic or, alternatively, inscrutable, I'm not going to wade in there with a fork when a pitch fork will do. But you want to talk about her ideas? Scot, for you my friend, my time is yours. Let's do it!

SCOT SAYS : And my time is yours. So far, I find this quite interesting. But then, I found 'The History of Philosophy' interesting. But hey, nobody else has been forced to read all these twists and turns. No guilt, let's forge ahead.

'I do qualify my admiration for Schaef’s theory, as I did in my now inactive comment to Katie, that :

“I offer the Schaef quotes as a way of understanding what goes on with M. The multiple addictions - he sure fits the 'perfectionist' bill perfectly.'

Sorry, but to me, Maharaji is far, far, FAR from being anyone's definition of a perfectionist. As I said to you in another reply to your original post about her which you didn't respond to, I think you're confusing someone who strives for perfection with someone who pretends he's without fault. Want to talk about it?

SCOT SAYS : I admit this at the outset, that I do see M as someone who strives for perfection. (Your phrase, “confusing someone who strives for perfection with someone who pretends he’s without fault” seems full of promise. Discussing that could be interesting.)

But to keep to the argument: M mentioned one time that he got a “perfect score” on one of his flying courses, and he did it in something like half the time normally taken to do the course. He projects humility, but he’s not to be taken as a humble faulty member of the human race. From his kicking that beach ball perfectly into the car door, to his perfect flying record, to the whole aura - well, this would be getting into unprovable and non-rational waters - of perfect surrender to the perfect master which brings perfect peace . . . what am I getting at here? Oh yeah, he is CONCERNED with Perfection, both uppper and lower case perfection, no? Is he achieving it or not is beside my point. I’m impressed with Schaef’s juxtaposing the addictions and perfections, and I am quite interested to see why you don’t find this interesting, at least. Use a fork, by all means.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 05:29:01 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Yes well, words can be and are so confusing.
Message:
All we've got to go on is what we feel. I think the lesson is learning to trust that and be happy with the outcome.
stay well Sandy,
MK
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:48:46 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Maybe you just can't find the right words, MK
Message:
Or maybe the words that Maharaji uses are such bullshit that if you were to actually consider what he's saying you wouldn't be able to bear just how much you've been had. So instead of contemplating what he says, realizing that it's mostly nonsense, you just blame the words he uses instead of the man using them for causing your confusion. I mean, it really is so obvious why new age thinkers and cult members have so little disregard for words. It's because their own fucking words are complete bullshit! Speak truly and maybe you'll have more respect for words. But don't blame the words. It's the people who misuse them that are the cause of confusion, not the words, themselves.
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:57:04 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Correction
Message:
I meant such disregard, not so little disregard, but if you had half a brain you'd know that without me correcting myself, now wouldn't you? Heh, heh. What's that... who cares? Well, I fucking do or I wouldn't have corrected myself!

Jeez!

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 15:49:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: That's nonsense
Message:
Even when I was first allowing myself to slip into the murky, tepid bath of new-age thinking, I was aware of the hypocrisy in talking this way. You're relying on words and concepts to say that you can't trust words and concepts. When you gonna grow up?
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:19:33 (GMT)
From: Oh Yes!
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's cruelty to animals
Message:
Right again JIm. That silly, daft woman.
Marolyn told me she was expecting a caning from you soon enough.
Right now she'll be cowering, humiliated and broken by your brutality.

Another victory for truth and justice.
heyho

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 07:45:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Words are confusing when used deceitfully
Message:
Marolyn,

If words are used with good intentions they can convey the truth. If words are used insincerely, irresponsibly and with the aim to deceive or confuse or mislead there is a word for that. It is called lying either by commission or omission. I think you are being disingenuous and a trifle coy here probably to leave room in your mind for a bit of excuse-making with regards to Rev Rawat's inept and disrepectful misuses of the English language.

Sandy,

The essence of all religion is ''satchitanand'' which Rawat incorrectly translates as ''truth is the consciousness of bliss.'' The sanskrit word ''sat'' means true, pure or clear. ''Chit'' means being, consciousness AND conscience. ''Anand'' means happiness or contentment.

''Satchitanand'' means that you will be happy if you have a pure heart or a clean conscience. It is not some mysterious eastern concept. It is common to all civilized religions.

The other part of religion which is common to all human beings is the rules which have to be followed in order to have a pure heart or a clean conscience. Do not kill, steal, lie and a few other sensible taboos. Where religion goes wrong is when it strays from that simple message and is deliberately clouded with mystic mumbo-jumbo or weird complicated moralities.

The ''heart'' or conscience can indeed be either good or evil.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 14:13:05 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Bull doodoo Patrick
Message:
Pat said:
'I think you are being disingenuous and a trifle coy here probably to leave room in your mind for a bit of excuse-making with regards to Rev Rawat's inept and disrepectful misuses of the English language'.

Absolute nonsense Pat, you are being mischievous here, putting your own psychological spin onto someone's words. Not a good habit on a forum like this. Or anywhere.

I'll attempt to make my post clearer for you.

Yes Sandy, it can be confusing when passages in the bible describe the heart as evil, wicked and impure, while today's culture revere the heart as the source and harbour of love, truth and honesty.

...and while you're sticking the boot into M's English Pat, how's your perfect fluent Hindi holding up?

MK

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:31:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: How many pot brownies did you eat, Marolyn
Message:
before you posted your wobble dance about words?

You know very well that I was not being mischievous. Don't you? Before you accuse me of being deceitful get to know me better and you will see that I am not. I was simply drawing yours and Sandy's attention to the New Age hypocrisy which allows us to denigrate words while at the same time make them mean whatever we want them to mean. Sandy is a magical thinker. Rev Rawat is a liar. What's your excuse?

You said: ''...and while you're sticking the boot into M's English Pat, how's your perfect fluent Hindi holding up?''

My Hindi is non-existent. I have not lived in India for 30 years. I have a dictionary to consult if I need to. What is Rawat's excuse for his direspect for the English language and semantics? And that was the most cult-like of your digs so far. I'm not in the business of going around India spouting inept Hindi in order to deceive Indians.

I just hope you are not going to turn out to be one of those premies who can never be wrong no matter what and who see everything through the stoned haze of bhakti juju and refer everything back to the cult paradigm. I hope not because it only comes off as smug and is ultimately a conversation killer and makes me wonder why you are on a DISCUSSION forum.

This will be the last time I address you if you give me some smart-alecky, amoral quasi-Hindu-its-all-maya answer. I do not talk to disdainful people.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 08:24:47 (GMT)
From: Nigel Hawthorne
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: This will be the last time I address you if...
Message:
Did anyone ever tell you what a pompous smug prick you can be?

Who the fuck are you? Grand vizier to the great Jim, and you both decide who's worth something on this site and who isn't? Yes, it looks like that. It all depends on whether or not posters offend your benevolent and open MINDS desn't it?. Or whether your day's panning out the way you want - or not.
Mood games.
You know what they call people like you? NET ENUFF NERDS - people who've gotten too comfortable in a chat room and started throwing their egos around the place. Ugly, but wait for the fall.

I'm waiting for Marilyn's response to your self righteous crap.
If she bothers. I find her stuff much more reasoned and clear than your roller coaster emotional tubleweed, you come over as the drug taker not her. over up sideways down

I find it unfortunate that my first post here (after months of looking) would be less than praiseful. I guess I thought better of you Pat and am disappointed.
one for all
Nigel

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:16:36 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Nigel Hawthorne
Subject: Hey Nigel...
Message:
Are you the same Nigel (as the guy from Pasadena).
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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:24:20 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Deborah
Subject: Insult to the name 'Nigel'
Message:
I haven't heard of any guy from Pasadena, but Nigel Hawthorne is a famous actor in the UK. The style of the post is very much Catweasel's. I can't confirm this but a while back Catweasel used a string of actor's names to hide behind when flaming.

FA..?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 13:17:17 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Nigel Hawthorne
Subject: I do not talk to disdainful people.
Message:
So said Pat, a man who eats disdain for breckie, and once again his own words are the most appropriate to use as a subject header. I won't reply to him.

Thanks Nigel (are you Richard's brother?)

Don't worry about Pat, he goes round in cycles. Sucks up to everyone until all messages say 'Oh you're so warm and cuddly'
Then he gets on his high horse and steps out of line (as demonstrated above) until someone kicks his arse, then he'll play Mr 'oh I'm so humble' for a week. And then when his confidence is boosted back up by all the co-dependent backslaps available here he climbs back on the magic roundabout. zzzzz

The really absurd thing is, he still hasn't addressed the ironic issue Sandy brought up, that being - the bible mentions the heart as a force of evil but today's pundits have it as the source of joy. I thought it was rather interesting but some people here just want to listen to themselves churning over their next clever concept or comment, not what is being said. I'll bet that happened while M was talking.
stay well, (I'll email Rich)
MK

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 23:49:30 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Magical thinking....moi?
Message:
Pat,

Pigeonholes are for pigeons, labels are for parcels.
We are multifaceted, all of us and are also changing all the time. Some of us are even learning things.

Life is magical. Thinking is magical. Without that magic, we'd probably still be in caves banging dirt for grubs.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:08:01 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy and Marolyn, the spirit moves me to answer
Message:

Sorry I didn't get back to you guys sooner but this is the first chunk of time bigger than a tea-break that I've had all day to answer you.

Marolyn says that I did not answer Sandy's question about the historical changes in the use of the word ''heart.'' I would have thought that it was obvious to anyone who has read English literature from Shakespeare to Burroughs that words change their meanings over time. That's why I din't get into it. Heart, mind, personality, soul, spirit, character and conscience have been used interchangeably and with different meanings depending on their context to describe human self-consciousness. I thought I made myself clear that words are only confusing if used deceptively and that it all boils down to having pure motives or a clean conscience but maybe I was being obtuse and haughty for which my apologies.

Marolyn, I can take criticism. A lot of what you said is true. However I probably need to explain why I was so critical of you. Frankly I am in two minds as to your motives for posting on FV. I feel that you are perhaps trying to introduce the concept that words are meaningless in order to push your agenda here - M does not speak to the mind but to the heart. You have not explained your motives and you have left me to guess at them and my guess is that you are presenting yourself as the cool hip instructor who eats pot brownies and once was a horse addict and is not a pious church lady and EV stinks but M is great - in other words the current propaganda being put out by SmartCard carrying smart PWKs. Tell me if I am wrong. However I will apologise for being hoity-toity with you.

Sandy, as for the idea of ''spirit'' - I haven't got a clue. I used to believe that god was love, you know - ''that feeling.'' If you are using the word to mean ''life'' then I will not argue with you. As to whether that ''life'' continues after death - well, I guess I'll find out when I kick the bucket. But till then I prefer not to BELIEVE in stuff. I don't need to guess at what I don't know or perhaps can never know. I'm just glad that I'm breathing today and hope I will have a lot more days to live. I leave theology to theologists. Sorry I can't get into a discussion about religion with you. My religion is simply armchair yoga - uniting my heart and my mind - being good and kind but also being rational and practical.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:47:09 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Sounds good
Message:
My religion is
simply armchair yoga - uniting my heart and my mind - being good and kind but also
being rational and practical. -PatC

Whatever floats your boat. I have no problem with any of the ritual traditions and practices of your religion as you described above. As a matter of fact, I spend some time practicing them myself.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:40:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: ***WARNING! NEW AGE RUBBER TALK!***
Message:
You know what he was talking about, Sandy. Your silly word games don't fool anyone.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:54:07 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Have some courage Jim, for Chrissake!
Message:
Sandy wrote:
Pat,

Pigeonholes are for pigeons, labels are for parcels.
We are multifaceted, all of us and are also changing all the time. Some of us are even
learning things.

Life is magical. Thinking is magical. Without that magic, we'd probably still be in
caves banging dirt for grubs.

Sandy

Jim responded:
You know what he was talking about, Sandy. Your silly word games don't fool
anyone.

Jim,

You always say 'we' or 'us' or 'anyone', when you are voicing your own solitary opinion, a very weak stance, if I say so MYSELF. Why do you do that, I'D like to know. Did you poll everyone first? Or are you psychic? Or are you really everyone else here in pseudonyms and posting all this and it's just you and me? hahaha

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 00:06:49 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Thomas Jefferson was a magical thinker too...
Message:
As was Leonardo da Vinci, Michaelangelo, Dali, Chuck Yeager, Martin Luther King, Dr. Wm DeBakey, and many others who pushed the envelope until the glue came loose. So I am in good company.

Thanks for the compliment.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:42:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Bullshit!
Message:
Go ahead. Obliterate the meaning of another term. Why not?
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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:31:10 (GMT)
From: Professor SuchaBanana
Email: None
To: Jim + Sandy
Subject: * heart vs. head, according to Thomas Jefferson *
Message:
To J. + S.:

For your information:

First, Thomas Jefferson and most of the so-called USA Founding Fathers were Masons! That's a historical fact. Masons = alleged magical thinking.

Thomas Jefferson was also the product of the Enlightenment, and his views may be better understood by reviewing his letters and inspecting the favourite books of his ample library:

It is a fact that Protestant-reared Jefferson was critical of metaphysical superstitions; this criticism was mostly directed against the Catholic Church, which he identified as synonymous with most of continental Europe. 'He thought that Christianity had been perverted by aescetical and unnatural Greek ideas.' [Cappon, pg. 433] From TJ's copy of a book by Chastellux: 'One can almost gauge a people by its ritual: When that is simple and modest, the people are active and industrious; when it is solemn and exaggerated, the people are puffed up and silly; when it is gloomy and stiff, the people are fierce, bellicose, and opinionated.' Accordingly, to prevent the installation of government-sanctioned religion, TJ authored Virginia's Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom, one of the 3 achievements he wished placed on his monument [the other 2 being the Declaration of Independence and the founding of the University of Virginia].

However, to understand Jefferson's concept of inalienable rights to 'happiness' [borrowed from the writings of Scottish political philosopher Francis Hutcheson, i.e. the 'pursuit of happiness'], one must also consider another facet of Englightenment thought of the period -- the science of morality.

Jefferson's favourite book: Tristam Shandy. Tristam Shandy by Laurence Sterne: wherein the head is shown to be subservient to the heart. [Jefferson owned at least several editions of this same book.] 'The best course of morality that ever was written,' wrote TJ. Read TJ's letter to Maria Cosway in 1786, in which 'all the arguments for duty and virtue come from the Heart; that the Head speaks only for a narrow, selfish interest, and that the Head lapses into ineffectual silence, with over a third of the dialogue left, to hear the Heart's concluding and triumphal argument.' [from Inventing America, by respected historian Garry Wills]. 'Jefferson considered 'sentiment' the superior faculty in man.' [Wills]

One of the more interesting aspects of Jefferson's letter is that he attributes the American Revolution itself to the moral guidance of the Heart: 'If our country, when pressed with wrongs at the point of the bayonet, had been governed by it's heads instead of it's hearts, where would we have been now? hanging on a gallows as high as Haman's. You began to calculate and to compare wealth and numbers: we threw up a few pulsations of our inmost blood: we supplied enthusiasm against wealth and numbers: we put our existence to the hazard,when the hazard seemed against us, and we saved our country: Justifying at the same time the ways of Providence, whose precept is to do always what is right, and leave the issue to him.' [Thomas Jefferson]

'The warm and optimistic love of Providence better expresses Jefferson's religious and moral views than does the ordinary 'deist' picture of a cold regard for the Great Watchmaker.' [Garry Wills, Inventing America ('The best and most thorough analysis of the Declaration ever written' New York Times Book Review, and Winner of the National Book Critics Circle Award)]

Peace and lentils,

such

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:04:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Professor SuchaBanana
Subject: * heart vs. head, according to Thomas Jefferson *
Message:
Such,

Thanks for the background. The way I read it, Jefferson is substituting 'heart' for passion and 'head' for reason, a classic metaphor I don't take issue with. However, this is a far cry from the kind of 'magical thinking' thinking that denigrates reason and plays fast and loose with the fair meaning of words. Sandy engages in that kind of thinking but I think it was wrong of him to try to place Jefferson in his same boat.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:02:40 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I may not be on the same deck as Mr. Jefferson
Message:
but I am definitely on the same boat. You are free to think whatever you wish about it. That is one of the magical thinkings of Mr. Jefferson, that people have such freedoms to think and say what they believe in the first place. Back in merry old England, folks were getting punished for the same thing. Very magical indeed.
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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:57:30 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Professor SuchaBanana
Subject: Through the magical medium of cyber space...
Message:
Dear Such,

I read your post about TJ and then got up to get a snack. While in the kitchen, I realized I had to thank you right now for the great effort you made to get all that online. I was enriched by the accurate account of events.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 06:26:33 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: u r welcome (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 04:02:36 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, right, I forgot...
Message:
the dictionary police is out tonight.

I suppose if I said I sunk $1,000.00 in my car you'd go to the river expecting to find it submerged and get the cash too.

You are just too damned literal. I was wrong. Mickey's not the Pharisee, you are.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 15:47:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Why your new age rubber talk sucks
Message:
If you said you sank money into your car everyone would know what you mean.

When people talk about 'magical thinking' that means something too. It does not mean excellent or marvellous thinking. It does not mean all thinking as in 'thinking is so incredible, it's magical'. It means believing in all sorts of magical things about the world. Your habit of twisting words in these juvenile whacky definition games is something that you picked up years ago in your new age readings, friendships, etc. It's a pathetic way to avoid discussion and the real meaning of words. Anyone can play the game but most people don't because they can see it for what it is: a communication blocker.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 16:50:18 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why your argument blows
Message:
When Thomas Jefferson wrote about all men being created equal and being endowed with certain unalienable rights, he was most definitely thinking magically in the contest of his era, especially in the eyes of the ruling class and the dominant social order, which based its existence on the opposite of all men being created equal. Damn straight he was a magical thinker in his day.

I have to give you a clean bill of health however on your 20/20 hindsight. But if you were a lawyer in England enjoying all the beneifts of your culture and your class status at the time of Jefferson, you'd probably think he was a magical thinker and not be shy about saying it because you'd be surrounded by your pals who also would have much to lose if his magical thinking took hold and became the norm.

It's obvious to me how much you condescend to so many here besides myself, I can only surmise how you would have been back then, all powder-wigged and buckles on your boots to parade your status, cursing the motley crew across the pond making a stir.
Or maybe you might have been a revolutionary yourself, in which case you would buy into the magical thinking and help to make it reality.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 16:54:52 (GMT)
From: SAndy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And while I have your attention, Jim...
Message:
There are some posts at the end of the thread about raising the bar you have not addressed yet. I challenge you to answer them with equanimity.
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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 01:11:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Okay, it was a cheap shot, Sandy
Message:
I used someone else's shortcut ''label'' for you. I used a shortcut because you were not the person with whom I was disagreeing. I was disagreeing with Marolyn and simply (unfairly) used your way of seeing things as a contrast from the way I see things.

Your cosmology is not far from what I used to entertain myself so I am a bit like a former smoker who is fanatically anti-smoking. I tend to be a bit disdainful of others who are steeped in scriptures.

What I really meant to say (if I had not succumbed to using a shortcut ''label'') is that you still see the world in spiritual terms and use words within that paradigm whereas I am materialistic and prefer to use words to describe concrete stuff.

For instance - eventhough I still meditate you won't hear me ever trying to describe it the way Janet does because it is absolutely subjective and unprovable to another and also probably boring to everyone but myself.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:00:08 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Spirits in the material world
Message:
What I really meant to say (if I had not succumbed to using a shortcut ''label'') is that you still see the world in spiritual terms and use words within that paradigm whereas I am materialistic and prefer to use words to describe concrete stuff.
-PatC

So Pat,
If, God forbid, you lost part of your physical body, would YOU not still be all here?
Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 05:15:01 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Spirits in the material world - lost body parts
Message:
Sandy said: ''So Pat, If, God forbid, you lost part of your physical body, would YOU not still be all here?''

Depends on which body part got mislaid, Sandy. A foot, a leg, an arm? Yes, I'd still be here.

My head, my heart, my lungs, my liver? Nope, I'd be gone.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 11:55:26 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Duh
Message:
So then if YOU would still be all here if you did not lose a vital part (duh again for being deliberately obtuse), then YOU are not a physical being now, are ya? And it's not magical thinking or spiritual vs physical, it's just the way it really is, from your own words.

It's the ones who think they are their bodies who are thinking magically, and trusting in only what their five senses tell them.
And the Magician has one hell of an act to blow those minds and bodies clear out of this pop stand. And you know what, it really will be a 'now you see it, now you don't disappearing act when we go, and nobody I know really knows for sure where you go after the magician has put your bod in that box. I'm convinced there's a chute to another location for us and we leave our bodies behind.

When I die and they lay me to rest
Gonna go to the place that's the best
When I lay me down to die
Goin' up to the Spirit in the sky...

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:13:46 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Duh, counselor
Message:
Didn't realize I was writing a contract here. OK.....

Should the bearer of this body lose any arms, legs, or any appendages extending from aforementioned, whereas et al, herein as aforementioned by the first or second party to the first part....please sign in the presence of three witnessses and notarize.

Nobody really knows if someone who is 'brain dead' and cannot communicate with this level of existence is still here or not. I do not know of any machine that can detect the presence of a conscious soul, do you? So you can keep your legalities and your definitions. As for quality of life, yeah, many would choose to have the plug pulled based on empirical data. I might myself.

Can you know for sure if the 'brain dead' still experience life on any level in any way? Doctors say things are chronic and terminal and use terms like that in their arrogance when what they really mean is 'we don't understand this one yet.' A hundred years ago, blue babies were left to die because nobody knew how to revive them, or very few who knew how to stimulate them by sticking them in the foot with a pin or holding them under cold running water to kick start their circulation. Frank Sinatra was such a baby. Just think of all the great tunes that would not be if the midwife who was there didn't know some of these tricks. And it's likewise on the other end too. We call something brain death for lack of the humility to say that we don't undertand it yet and we don't really know if the person is having any life experience in there or if it's fixable maybe someday down the road.

I know, I know magical thinking.....but if you were around when Columbus was about to set sail, I bet you a pint you'd be laughing at him too and calling him a very magical thinker to think the world was round. After the fact, you'd be there partying and enjoying the benefits of his trip and buying into the next journey once you'd seen the riches on board.

Face it man, you are a status quo dude, not a real creative or breakthrough kind of guy. I don't hold it against you, I just know who I'm dealing with and try to make the best of it. I don't have to attack you to make my point, it stands on its own merits.
8>)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 15:39:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Boy, you really thought hard on this one!
Message:
Sandy,

If you suffered serious brain damage and fell into a vegatative state, no, 'you' wouldn't be here any longer. 'Ronald Reagan' isn't here any longer. Use your brain while you've still got one!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:15:31 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Boy, you really thought hard on this one!
Message:
Please refer to above post 'duh, counselor.'
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 22:51:13 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask
Message:
Is the Nectar really just Snot?

Wait, don't click off yet. I know this is silly in light of all the serious issues being discussed here at present. I can almost hear y'all groaning, 'Please, yet another trash-talking rookie busting up into the forum asking the inevitable 'nectar=snot?' question.' Click.

I have waited for many years to ask someone to demystify the Nectar for me. I read Timmi's post below, 'techniques and broadcast.' She had taken a look at the page about the techniques and said, 'And if anybody thinks I am going to try and stick my tongue in my nose from the inside, they need serious help!' So my old unanswered question came up again, but out of respect for the serious nature of Timmi's thread, I am posting my question up here.

When I wrote my Journey (which I realize now was back-assward, I should have found the forum first and gotten a better understanding of the process, then submitted my journey...sorry) I remembered how one of the guys in the musicians house where I was housemother used to brag about how far he could stick his tongue up inside his head to taste the Nectar and I couldn't get what he meant. I thought maybe I hadn't paid attention well in that part of my Knowledge session. I would ask him what he was doing and his oblique answers (Maharaji-style) never made sense. I got so tired of smug premies like him. I just gave up on it, shut up about it, did more service. And of course I had no idea that it was just a yoga technique...but anyway.

I was never convinced about hearing the Music, either, because these guys in my house played such loud music every night in the rock and roll clubs (they weren't a premie-music band, they played covers of rock songs about love and light, quests for truth, loudly) that our ears were always ringing. And the bass player, who would fall asleep under his sheet as soon as he did pranam, and call it doing meditation!, was always snoring so loudly that I couldn't have heard the Music if a band of angels had been playing in the meditation room with us.

But...this is about Nectar. After I left DLM and started nursing school, I took Anatomy and Physiology and finally figured out what the Nectar technique was. But by then the only aspect of Knowledge I was practicing was meditation focused on the breath, sans the 'So Hung,' never having gotten what that was about either. (I wish I'd known then to substitute 'Fuck You,' which I just read about in the 'Third Technique Update' in the Best of Forum Archives...thank you, Jean-Michel)

So I went along, graduated from the university and became an in-hospital Perinatal Nurse. During my 20 years in the field I worked a lot in a Birthing Center setting, as well as in a Neonatal Intensive Care Unit in a large Atlanta hospital, did lots of newborn resuscitations and took care of many premies (no, not PWK's, but little tiny early babies!), which involved much suctioning of respiratory or gastric mucous, using either a bulb syringe or suction tubing connected to wall-suction.

Okay...one night in the NICU, about 10 years ago, I was doing routine naso-pharyngeal suction (tiny tube through the nostril, back through the naso-pharyngeal passage, down into the very top of the throat) on one of my little 3-pound premies (again, not a PWK!). For some reason, I suppose because the naso-pharynx is where you're supposed to stick your tongue to taste the Nectar, I flashed on the Nectar technique. I started laughing, couldn't stop laughing for a few minutes. Since it seems to me that many of you are involved in the care of other people in some way or another, I'm sure you understand that people who work in critical care units like ER, L&D, NICU, etc, MUST have a sense of humor to stay balanced...else we would freak out and burn out more than we do. Well, that's true for anyone, isn't it? Anyway, sometimes we'd just start laughing for no particular reason, just tension dissipating. But this night I told the crew about the Nectar technique. The Respiratory Therapist laughed so hard I thought she'd pee. The RT, 'Gina, the Nectar was Snot!' Me, 'I know...I JUST GOT IT!' They couldn't believe, nor can I, that someone would teach this as a meditation technique so special as to be kept secret at all costs, much less cloak it in vague references to the mystical, enrapturing experience of tasting the divine drop of honey we were taught it would be.

But...did I really miss something? Was the Nectar a really cool experience that I let slip away? Or a really slippery experience that I ... well, whatever. Have I asked the unaskable question? I know there is an answer and I think I already know what it is.
:)
Thank you and best to you all,
Gina

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:52:47 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Thanks, Y'all!
Subject: Might try to do the nectar again, if I can get my
Message:
tongue out of my cheek, where it tends to get stuck, and try to find that magic spot. We'll see. But thanks very much for all of your responses.
Love and respect,
Gina
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:02:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: Yes Gina. Nectar is snot. It's Official.
Message:
...but maybe there's a bit of spit and dinner back there too.

It's official. I just tried it. It's diluted snot.

Divine Light is patterns.

Divine harmony is blood in your eardrums and falling wax.

The Holy Word of God doesn't bob up and down on a spring in your chest.

Mary wasn't a virgin.

Moses didn't part the Red Sea (or was it the Dead Sea).

Thor doesn't fly around with a magic hammer.

There is no such thing as a Perfect Master.

(I can't read the last one, someone ripped the bottom off when they opened the crisp packet.)

Anth the Cheese and Onion Flavoured Wise Man.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:34:09 (GMT)
From: Joni Mitchell (official)
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: Like I said, 'God must be a booger, man' (nt)
Message:
bogie on, chillun'
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:27:09 (GMT)
From: Victoria Bitter
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: And Anth is a know all prat
Message:
and always was. So good to see the totally positive spin on life you have developed. You always did have a mucous problem and now in your deeply phlegmatic style you wish to share it with the world. Is that a poached egg ? Or has Anth just passed by?
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 18:18:02 (GMT)
From: PatC channeling Thelma
Email: None
To: Victoria Bitter
Subject: And Victoria Bitter is actually Catweasel
Message:
otherwise known as a polecat or stinky skunk. Please stick with one name CW. Not everyone here is apprised of your notoriety. If you intend to channel other personas it will be appreciated if you at least squirted your smelly Catweasel signature on them. I will not let anonymice insult my dear sweet Anth.

You just can't get enough of us huh? Premies too boring for you? Or they don't like you or pay any attention to your scintillating ego? Or are they just so selfish and navel-gazing that they don't have time for you? So you come here for your fix of human warmth?

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:43:36 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Victoria Bitter
Subject: here pussy pussy
Message:
you speak spanish now, yes?
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 21:34:27 (GMT)
From: Scot J
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: He's only 'tweasing us. NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:18:06 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Actual weight...contents may have settled
Message:
during shipping. Is that what the last one might have said?
Thank you, thank you, Anth!
Very much,
Gina
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:44:33 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: Not taking what Anth will say
Message:
The nector technique is not about sticking your tongue in the crack of your brain. If you can do the technique all you have to do is rest it gently on the palate of your mouth. Also it's not like opening a water tap or something. Once your tongue is in place you really need to stay aware of where it is. There is a spot somewhere where the shit comes from and [when I meditated] I had to probe with the tip of my toung very gently to find it. The first time it happened I was flat on my back, could not belive it and was much better than sex. As I got more experienced, I could with stand it. The shit makes you trip like acid, doesn't taste like water, but a bit of sweetnes and seem to give some satisfaction. Doing the nector is the best way I have found to stay focused during the day. People that brag about how far the can stick there tongue are nothing but assholes that want to show off, and yes if you shove your tongue up you nose you will taste snot. So Anth could be right in a way,

take care,

Salam

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:12:51 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: generally known as 'Kechari Mudra' - links
Message:
You're obviously not alone. Here are a few links

kechari mudra (nice diagrams!)


From kechari mudra - kriya yoga , 'When the Yogi is capable of performing the practice of Kechari Mudra (that is, placing the tongue up the nasal pharynx at the base of the palate) he qualifies for practice of advancements in Kriya whereby this evolutionary process of re-enacting of the Yugas is greatly accelerated, making it even much more possible to achieve the goal of complete Kaivalya (Liberation) in one lifetime. Processes of 'advanced' or 'higher' Kriyas allow the Yogi to remain steeped in the ecstasy of Kriya for longer and longer periods of time. Process of Kechari Mudra, untying of the 'knot of the tongue' shall assist the Yogi.'

Always seemed to me that m didn't have very much knowledge.

And from Summary of a very Enlightening 6 day visit with Shailendra Sharma, 'To my surprise, many of them had achieved kechari mudra under his guidance in some cases within a year or two of practicing kriya. One student achieved kechari mudra within 30 days. Kechari mudra is essential for progress in kriya.'

And he never sounded like a very good meditation teacher either, nor did his instructors. I remember your story about one of yours, Salam.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 07:23:09 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: What a stupid statement
Message:
Always seemed to me that m didn't have very much knowledge.

Knowledge of what, Anna? Of people, of life, of the human situation, of the inner workings of the soul? I'd wager he knows just as much about it as you and I do. And with his background and experience, maybe even just a little bit more.

And who are you to judge if he is a good meditation teacher or not??? Have you ever been his student? Have you even taken the trouble in your 'research' to actually see what he is like?

You are obviously basing all of your 'knowledge' just on the hearsay you are picking up here, and whatever dabbling in meditation you might have done in your spare time.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 13:20:17 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Seriously, Mili ...
Message:
You are in a cult, I am not ... it is not possible to communicate or discuss these issues with you.

I have asked many many people, including you, about their paths. Some have something to say, some don't. Those in cults have nothing to say to me except that they are in a cult, which is what you are saying above with your bias, assumptions and judgement. If you could only see how sickly incestuous cult-closed-mindedness is, and how much in denial cult members are, then we might be able to talk.

All the best to you, Mili,

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:46:33 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Fine
Message:
So I am in a 'cult'. I don't have any problems with that. I don't really care about that 'snarl' word anymore. It's just a bigoted way to stigmatize a group of people that you don't necessarily agree with, and to manipulate public opinion that way. If this is a cult, it's been that way since the time of Nanak and Kabir, to say the least. And I don't really understand your 'sickly-incestuous' comment there (except that it was malicious, whether you intended it or not - big surprise). But tell me one thing, how come you are sticking it around here for so long?
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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:04:09 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Fine
Message:
Nanak and Kabir have little in common with m - just read more of their writings -anything I've read by m is utter gibberish compared with their work. As to their relationship with their devotees ... we can only speculate, but I think they would be totally appalled by the way m operates.

Why I am still around is a very long story that I don't really have the time or interest to explain to you, but I have had a number of very interesting conversations. As I've said before, I try to benefit and learn from whatever context I find myself in. Actually, my time here has helped me to clarify issues related to an important decision I've made.

I have a difficult time talking with premies. What I honestly feel and think about the m-trip sounds malicious to them. What am I supposed to think about a group of 'lovers of God' who think they are the only ones with the true 'Knowledge,' and like you, act as though anyone else's path is 'part-time dabbling'. It was the exclusiveness of Churchianity that turned me away from that popular path as a child. I do honestly wish you well. I think of you whenever I talk with my Croatian neighbour. She's such a sweet woman.

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 12:40:56 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Of course, oh omniscient one. (nt)
Message:
How's your mum doing?
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 15:03:10 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 'And he never sounded like a very good...
Message:
meditation teacher either...' Apparently, this has never been about meditation, really, sadly. It's not personal, it's just bidness, and bidness has been gooooood.

Hi, thanks very much for such useful information and for taking the time to post these links.
Appreciatively,
Gina

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 14:09:50 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: 'And he never sounded like a very good...
Message:
Hi Gina,

I haven't been reading much lately, so I just went and read your journey. I think it's great to have so many different perspectives here, and the journey section has grown so quickly in the last year! I think I'll ask the FA to check what the growth curve looks like there! ;) And in case you don't know yet, I was never a premie or anything else, but I've done a lot of meditation and yoga of different types. I landed here because of an email conversation I was having with Mili about a year and a half ago - you don't have to listen to exes to pick up on the cult vibe! ;)

I particularly liked the way you ended your journey,

'So I feel like I learned some valuable lessons from the experience. I have taught my four children, though, to be very careful about all religions, to respect the great teachers, spiritual leaders, healers, wise women and men... they are all around us, to learn from as many directions as possible, and to think for themselves... and to always be wary of the middleman.' (thinking of 'God's' self-appointed middlemen/women?! ;)

Thanks.

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 15:33:35 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Yes! 'God's' self-appointed middlemen/women!
Message:
Precisely! It's just wrong that so many innocent seekers of truth end up having to negotiate their way over, under, around, or in the case of premies and other innocent people who are lured into a cult, THROUGH, the dangerous and greedy middlemen/women who plant themselves squarely in the middle of the path.

Anna, thanks so much for your message. I've been away for a day, tending to a new mother & baby, and I came back to the forum to post a thank you message to everyone, up at the top of my thread, and I'm surprised and happy to find your message. This forum is the first I've ever been to, so I'm still learning 'forum decorum' and getting a feel for the rhythm of dialogue here. I must say I feel quite honored that so many people took the time to respond to my odd, but very real, question.

Thanks for telling me how you 'landed here.' I agree that it is good to have the different perspectives here...makes for honest, thought-provoking dialogues, as well as some really rowdy ballyhoo. Educational AND therapeutic. I've developed a great respect for the people here. I've printed out some of the amazing discourses I've read here for my daughter who studies philosophy, comparative religions and history at college. There is a lot of valuable information and insight here.

Good 'talking' to you!
Go well,
Gina

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:35:13 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: Yes! 'God's' self-appointed middlemen/women!
Message:
Hi Gina!

This was the first forum I had ever been to too, and it's been a very multi-leveled learning experience!

I agree with you -
'It's just wrong that so many innocent seekers of truth end up having to negotiate their way over, under, around, or in the case of premies and other innocent people who are lured into a cult, THROUGH, the dangerous and greedy middlemen/women who plant themselves squarely in the middle of the path.'

Nonetheless, there are so many trips like m's out there, it seems that something more fundamental has to change before this phenomena ends, it's part of the human fabric at this point. I had no idea that this general problem was so serious, though - I've been doing a lot of web searches since I landed here, and many of them have been quite depressing.

The people here are great, I agree! I have files of posts I've copied and pasted into Word. There's a real wealth of information and ideas moving through here. I think your daughter is on a great path! You must be very proud of her! (have her check out that 'onebehindthemany' link I posted to Steve ... it's got a rather exhaustive overview!) What really impresses me is the patient love and caring so many of the exes show towards the premies when I am at my wits end!

I've enjoyed talking with you too! All the best!

Love,

Anna

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 14:40:29 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Hello Again
Message:
Firstly, I forgot that I moved in November and I talked to you in October - my how time flies. If you email me I'll send you my current phone number.

I've taken another quick look at your links. I'm not sure that stuff is really my cup of tea, but it does raise an interesting question. Whenever the Haha was asked serious questions about yoga, other eastern practices, or anything else for that matter, he always ridiculed the question and said that 'what you are looking for is within you, that's all you need to know'. Which raises the question - where within you? In your skin layers somewhere? In your navel somewhere? Where does 'within' actually start - in one of the skin layers? In your organs - which one?

It's absurd and sad. We followed Haha based on faith which was never fulfilled by the wanker.

All the best,

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 04:07:04 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hello Again Again
Message:
(I thought this one was to Gina.)

You wrote:
Whenever the Haha was asked serious questions about yoga, other eastern practices, or anything else for that matter, he always ridiculed the question and said that 'what you are looking for is within you, that's all you need to know'.

I'm not surprised. I think his problem is that he really doesn't know very much at all about what he speaks - neither theoretically, nor experientially. If premies started to look much anywhere else, the gaping holes in the m trip become very clear. Where 'within' us? If I knew the answer to that then I could be a guru, right? I don't even need to know the answer ... I can pretend I do!

If you're beginning to poke around a bit on the web, you might enjoy this link onebehindthemany - it will keep you busy for months!

And if you feel like you're losing perspective, remember, you're really headless!

Anna :)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 06:39:32 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Thanks Again
Message:
Those links look great, Anna. Thanks again.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:29:41 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Hi Anna
Message:
Nice to see you back. I know I was hard on you several months ago but I've gone through a lot of changes and obviously at the time you were triggering a lot of things in me. I've enjoyed your recent posts. Have you gone through a lot of changes too?

Thanks for those links - they look interesting and I've bookmarked them for future reference.

All the best, and phone me if you still have my number. And please feel free to email me. I got a couple of emails from Anth yesterday and today and they were delightful.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:26:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hi Steve
Message:
Hi Steve,

Glad you enjoyed the links. Yes, I've noticed that quite a few people go through a lot of changes when they start posting here, but everything settles down after a while, if we keep on keeping on and get to know each other a bit.

I've been very busy since the end of January, and that hasn't changed yet! But I check in and click around more than I've been posting. Thanks for the invite to get in touch with you ... I'll see if things level off a bit - right now I'm way over my head.

I appreciated your post about changing the font size for reading - I changed mine a while ago when I learned it was possible - there must be a lot of people out there who don't know it is.

Anna

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:55:04 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: 'Doing the nectar is the best way I've found...'
Message:
to stay focused during the day.'
Hi, Salam, thank you for telling me your experience. It sounds like this technique has been powerful for you. I respect that. And I see that there is confirmation of the brief taste of something sweet, relative or not to actually trying to get it, in several of the responses to my question. Very interesting.
And yeah, the guy who bragged WAS an asshole! In general!
Go well,
Gina
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:01:00 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: there really is a nectar, gina. for real.
Message:
I can get it, but it comes from a change in inner focus, not from reaching the tongue up the back of the palate.
i was never one of those who could accomplish the physical postition. I strained at it all day like a good little premie, trying to pass the tight, fearful boundaries of my ego and let go of the need to always be in control. at best, it let me literally hold my tongue, so i wouldnt utter things i would later regret or be ashamed for.
but the actual flood of sweetness, whether tasted or sented, came out of nowhere , and not from practicng the exercises. it was not snot. it seemed to come from some other place and took me by surprise. someone once told me it could only come fromtranscendent joy and communion with the divine. so I must have done something right now and again, to have it happen to me like that.
it has something to do with prayer and spasms of soul gratitude.
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:29:50 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: 'it let me literally hold my tongue...'
Message:
Janet, thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate your telling me about your real experience.
Those very words, 'it let me literally hold my tongue...' sent me reeling when I read them. I remember now how I was told, more than a few times (as I imagine many of you were), that I wasn't humble enough, that I needed to be quiet and do more meditation and service, that maybe then I would be humble enough. (Humility vs humiliation, there's another debate, or maybe just a round or two in the realm of semantics) And the same guy (the housefather at my house) who bragged about how he could do the Nectar (like, 'nah, nah, nah, nah, poo, poo...I can do it, why can't you') told me more than once that I should keep my tongue there and be quiet. Like the day he admonished me about spending 75 cents or so on a cup of yogurt while I was out driving a hot, tired van all over Atlanta all day (in July...oy) to the farmer's market, food coop, natural foods store, etc, to hunt and gather our food for the week. And I smarted off to him (I've never had much use for or respect for patriarchal authority anyway...might have had something to do with my inability to achieve oneness with the fat boy, eh) that I'd figured it was okay for me to buy a fucking cup of yogurt for myself since I had found numerous chocolate bar wrappers in the car the guys drove in to Underground Atlanta nightly to play. He just said for me to keep trying to taste the Nectar. I told him to get out of the kitchen. Snappy comeback, huh!!!!! I sure do wish I'd been quicker on the retort then...I had to learn the hard way, working with some of the doctors I've known.
Oh well,
Uh, humbly,
Gina
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 09:54:57 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Don't forget Santa Claus
Message:
He's real too. There's incontrovertible evidence. He fills millions of stockings of good Christian Children every year.

Anth, dancing on a ley line, checking his horoscope.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:42:05 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yes, Virginia, there is.....sigh. nt
Message:
yo
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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:45:32 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: sorry, but there ain't no sanity clause... (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:15:34 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: yes (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 06:37:06 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Gina + da ex-phlegmies
Subject: neck-tar was great;stretching tongue wasn't!(s)not
Message:
nt...not...snot...knot snot...hot snot... hot shot...pot shot...pot gut...rot gut...ru gu...guru -- und der phlegmies...

keshari mudra - turning tongue back and pushing up against the roof of the mouth, slowing da breath, i.e. da legendary Haridas' suspended animation, and maybe occasionally tasting da neck-tar or sweetness + scent.

can not tell a lie -- I experienced the mystical sweetness and ambrosia taste [as did some of my friends] - both before and after receiving kn. - but during moments of intense devotion or prayer to an inner God, without doing any yogic technique whatsoever.

He thought it was ice cream, but it's not...
(pun) [snot experience more common for some others here]

Peace + lentils,

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:38:30 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: '(s)not' nectar, it's snot.
Message:
Dear Such...Thank you for the information and for telling me your experience of Nectar. The more I read here the more clear it becomes to me that if I am meant to have this experience, I will.
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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 06:29:34 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: you're welcome
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 06:40:58 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: kechari mudra; most phlegm-buoyant of techs! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:31:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: What I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask
Message:
Gina,

I remember the first time I walked into an auditorium and saw Maharaji live, in the flesh, for the first time. I remember there being a distinct sweetness permeating the air (no, it was not flowers.... I don't think). Anyway, later I was told THAT was nectar.

I think the problem with K is that nobody knows what anybody else is experiencing when they practice it. It's a very subjective experience. Some people swear by it, and some (I think most) think it's just so much hooey. I'm in this latter group.

When I received Knowledge in 1980 I was told that I didn't have to force my tongue back too far and to just focus in the nasal passage area toward the throat. I was NOT told to look for a liquid that tasted sweet. In fact, my initiator suggested that nectar could be anything, even air, whatever that meant. But the point was to just focus in that area, and come what may. So that's what I did. To be honest, I never mistook snot for nectar.

But what nectar really is? I doubt even Maharaji could tell you. And that's the rub. It's so personal, this meditation stuff, that people can only measure their own experience to what Maharaji says about it. I, myself, could never relate to anything Maharaji had to say about it. As far as I'm concerned, it might as well have been snot.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 04:20:09 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Just as I suspected, it's just so much hooey.
Message:
Jerry, thank you so much for everything you said here.
Thank you for reminding me that there being such a subjective, personal aspect to meditation is the very reason that receiving Knowledge...four techniques supposedly secret, essential, divine, and somehow standardized only for the devotees of Maharaji...didn't 'take' very well with some people. I was so disappointed for awhile and thought that I was too undisciplined, unfaithful, undeserving of perfection, unpremie, un-whatever, to experience the ultimate experience of Knowledge. I was so much happier when I let go of trying to do the techniques and just did meditation. I do respect other people's experience of the Nectar, whatever it was...I just never had it.
Thank you,
Gina
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:43:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: That ''nectar'' was air-freshener, Jerry
Message:
I first realized that the sweet perfume that I always smelled in M's events was air-freshener when they overdid it once in Miami in 83 and you could see the aerosol filtering down from the ceiling and I nearly choked as I don't like those chemical scents. Took me ten years to figure that one out.
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 07:36:00 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat: Once again,extraordinary insight.ThanksLOL nt
Message:
aa
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 04:25:04 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Was it that 'hooey-scent' air freshener?! nt
Message:
yo
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:31:47 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Gina
Subject: What I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask
Message:
Gina, I don't know why, put your post was really helpful to me. And it made me smile! I was astonished when I read the techniques on that knowledge session page. (The vows and arti nearly undid me.) And not to offend anyone, please understand that!, but how on earth could a person get 'into' that stuff?!? But, my husband apparently is one of those. I do want to tell all of you that the 'Maharaji says' things are happening with less frequency. I just try and 'politely ignore' them. I've heard a lot of what rawat has said, and I have yet to hear him say anything either new or particularly helpful or relevant to real life.
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:11:08 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Girl, I am so glad I made you smile!
Message:
Hi, Timmi...my heart has really gone out to you, reading here about your situation. I don't even know what to say that could be helpful to you, except maybe go right to PatC's response here. He and many others here know quite well what to say and how to say it!
Go well,
Gina
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 21:55:38 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Gina and PatC
Subject: Girl, I am so glad I made you smile!
Message:
Thanks to you both. And to Anth who always makes me smile! Your words help so much. Pat is right, I am sure. It is so darn hard at times. A couple of weeks ago, my husband ordered something from EV. Okay, but that money, though it wasn't a terrible lot, had a lot of places it could have been used! Patience and love are my hopes now. Is his weird sort of blind spot about rawat and knowledge typical? It must be. Others I have met seem to be the same way. Astonishing.
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 01:29:56 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: You're onto something, Timmi. Silence is golden.
Message:
The more you educate yourself here and just give a knowing patient smile when he brings up the guru the more curious he will become. Be ready with the answers when he asks. That's if he is a sensible guy and he must be if he picked you.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:25:23 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Gina
Subject: Superb Post, Gina
Message:
I just read that whole thread - it was great. I've got to look at the 'Best Of Forum' posts more often from now on.

Here is the post you were referring to from 'Cheddar with attitude'. What a bunch of aliases have come and gone from here! Makes me wonder - we need a database of who's who. It creates a sense of mystery on the Forum IMO. The whole thread is here. And here's the post from 'Cheddar with attitude':


Meditation on the breath is a pretty standard form of meditation which is practised the world over. Pregnant mothers are often told to meditate on their breath and breath meditation is a standard form of relaxation therapy. If gurus want to add things to it to make it sound more mystical then so be it. But it's just the breath goddamnit!

Adding Hindu words and mantras to it or visualisations of the master only serves to try to make it appear like some special knowledge. In my view such additions only interfere with something that is quite naturally ours - the breath. There's no need to add a mantra or visualisation to the naturally occuring breath.

For those people who want a mantra to practise while doing breath meditation, here's one which you'll find helpful.

On the in breath repeat the word FUCK and on the out breath repeat the word YOU. This is the divine 'word' that is written about in scriptures. This has been called the 'Mahamantra' and has been passed down from master to devotee for countless ages. Visualisation of the master may also help with this mantra.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:59:38 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Thanks so much, Steve, for putting up that link
Message:
and that post I referred to. I don't yet know how to do that...I saw the instructions on Forum Help, but I have to have more brain cells lined up in a row, earlier in the day, more coffee on board, etc, before I tackle that tricky maneuver!

I'm glad my post started a meaningful read for you. One of yours certainly did so for me earlier today...well, a meaningful listen...Synchronicity. That is my very favorite Police album and I often listen to it while I'm working at the computer (I work at home now) and Synchronicity II is my favorite song. So, thank you for that, too.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:12:29 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: Nectar = snot? It's not. It's just more guru-jism.
Message:
All the techs are simple yoga techs for relaxation and mental health. The gurus (starting with kabir and Nanak) turned it into a revivalist religion. They attributed the nice warm fuzzy feelings you can get from the yoga as GOD.

The gurujism business has simply taken the yoga and added it to their own religious superstitious baloney for peasants. I can forgive Kabir as he lived five hundred years ago before scientific observation but Rawat Senior and Junior both had science available and as far as I know were not illiterate. They're in it for the power and money.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:27:34 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Guru-jism. Oh, I was supposed to swallow. Got it.
Message:
Pat, thank you so much for the information and your observations. I didn't mean to post and duck, but my daughter came home and needed the computer for some research she's doing.

I agree...the fact that all these lies and hype ('religious superstitious baloney') have been simply the means to secure Maharaji's power and wealth is absolutely unforgivable.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:45:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: Guru-jism. Yep, some of us swallowed it hook, line
Message:
and sinker. Ciao, talk to you later.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:40:24 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: Nectar = snot?
Message:
Doing the nectar 'all the way, like you describe, makes you taste a lot of snot. When you don't have a cold this tastes just a little salty, almost similar to your mouth cavity.
I have had a few occasions of a sudden sweet taste. since it was no more that a few tenths of a second, it cannot have been some discharge. That takes more time to clear. So it must have been a firing of some neurons near the tastebuds. It was unmistakable. no suggestion. It did NOT occur during a special concentration or devotion. Since I exed I sometimes enjoy to do this technique, especially since I found out it is not rawats monopoly. On several occasions after I exed I tasted this.

In my Chinese soft martial art lessons I learned this technique as a switch between the front and back midline meridian, to make the energy (chi) circulate with the breath. When you stand or sit in good balance with a real straight back, the experience becomes much more intense than k. within minutes....

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:33:52 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Thank you for describing your experience in detail
Message:
I didn't quite understand one thing: the technique you learned in the Chinese soft martial arts lessons...is this the same physical technique as the Nectar technique, but you were taught to use it to achieve a different result (to circulate chi with the breath during meditation)?
Thanks,
Gina
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:03:11 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: Thank you for describing
Message:
I was doing chi-kung (Qi gong) exercises with a Chinese master, for about a year, just before i moved to the US. I learned the nectar and the 'name' technique in much grater detail, and much more effective than with m. Was particularly surprised me was that his 'roots' were not at all in the indian guru tradition, but appeared to be developed completely independent for hundreds or thousands of years.
The greatest differences: -we cannot sit for hours in concentrations. Our fantasies will drift off. Shorter sessions.
Most of the meditation was done standing up, with a lot of emphasis on proper posture. Attention low in the abdomen (hara)
To make the energy circulate, with every inhalation, the perineal area was contracted. The nectar was used to prevent 'overload' in the head: the energy rises up in the spine, and can then flow back into the abdomen with inhalation
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 01:34:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Nectar = snot? It's not salty. It's not sweet.
Message:
hindu hyperbole describes a pleasant feeling of relaxation and the neurons firing (or whatever PHYSICAL explanation there is for the kundalini) as the ocean of nectar. LSD showed me how powerful the human imagination is but also showed me it was all subjective. feeling nice is different for everybody.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:23:49 (GMT)
From: FattyPNE
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Divine Light
Message:
I was one of the early seventies fools who fell for it. I never really liked the look of the little pudd'n so I don't know why I did.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:29:39 (GMT)
From: clarence clear
Email: None
To: FattyPNE
Subject: Divine Light Me neither
Message:
but everyone else was doing it and I thought maybe those posters saying he had the knowledge we were all looking for could be true and I did not want to miss out just in case. I was also ripe for it having had a hard and abusive life up until that point. Crazy the things of youth eh.
Clarence
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:14:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: clarence clear
Subject: LSD plus desperation plus ignorance =
Message:
me being ripe for the plucking by a duck-plucking guru.
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 10:29:49 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I wandered in projecting youthful self-delusion...
Message:
...in all directions. Unexamined, unconscious, untried, unrecognised speculations about myself, the world, and my role in it.

Bugger me if Divine Light didn't re-enforce and reflect them all-perfectly, willingly, enthusiastically, un-hesitatingly, specifically.
I was made!

Oh my God! How embarrasing!

Love on a long journey,

Bryn

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:10:01 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Pia gearing up?
Message:
Somebody called Saucy Crumpet reports on Lifes Great that he/she has it on good authority that 'Pia's site is going to gear up soon, they know it's too static and rigid right now.' Well, good luck, guys.
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:47:08 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Pigs will fly first................nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:33:23 (GMT)
From: Suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: m. and EV slip on a bunch of banana skins!
Message:
Excerpts from m's bio on the EV site:

key sections/sentences/phrases:

'most still hold their memory of him in high regard, while a minority are openly critical and at times scathing about both the man and his message.  [most/minority?]

Maharaji certainly presents something of an enigma. He is not a religious teacher. [not a religious teacher - not a guru? DLM not a church? m. not a minister? no worship or references?]

He says he is an ordinary human being, no different from anybody else, yet his gatherings often trigger a degree of enthusiasm and respect which to a neutral onlooker could justifiably be interpreted as adulation. [says he is an ordinary human/vs. adulation. Da Master/servant ordinary? justifiably interpreted as adulation?]

So just who or what is Maharaji, and does the private individual differ widely from the public face he presents? Truth, it can be said, is subjective... [does the private individual differ widely from the public face?]

he is better known in India as Balyogeshwar which translates 'born king of the yogis.' [born Lord of the yogis?]

At the age of six, he and his siblings were taught the techniques of Knowledge, by their father. As an exuberant six year old, Maharaji said he accepted it because it was given to him rather than pushing for it through any great longing or desire of his own. With time and practice however he became appreciative...

wanting to strip his teaching of all its traditional Indian trappings, he considered dropping 'Maharaji'. [huh?]

It is not a given that the new master emerges from the previous master’s family. Indeed from the tradition that Shri Hans Ji Maharaj came, this is the only time when it has stayed in the family. [Radhasoami and Sikh guru tradition -- and Satpal?]

However the circumstances surrounding how the young Sant-ji became Maharaji are curious. Those close to him at the time said that he had always behaved with a confidence and sense that he was to be the next master, and his father had made it known that it would be his destiny to take this teaching around the world. However his succession was not accepted by some of the leaders of what was now a large and widely recognized organization. [circumstances curious/not accepted]

On the day after the funeral, a large crowd waited in the grounds of Prem Nagar ashram for an announcement to be made on who should be the next master. Meeting in a small room— a meeting from which Maharaji was excluded on grounds of youth— the key people could not make a decision. Meanwhile, the young Maharaji went out to reassure the people who had gathered to mourn their master’s death. This speech apparently moved the people who heard it to tears. In it Maharaji said there should be no weeping, for what the master taught was always with them, and that he for one was ready to take Knowledge forward. And thus the decision was made, not through discussion but through the genuine feeling that Maharaji had evoked in the people present. [the decision made by m.]

The shadow of Shri Maharaji was long, and the young Maharaji was regarded by many as a cipher, a substitute for his father who would teach the same subject in the same way. Not only this, but amongst the public at large there was a general skepticism that would dog him until he had reached maturity. ...claims were made that he was coached in what to say... [general skepticism]
 
The movement which sprang up to promote his teaching faced many ups and downs and misconceptions, some of which impacted on his public image. Added to this he faced the constant glare of publicity which directed attention on him rather than on his message. In his private life however he was settled in his certainty that this was what he wanted to do, and he had very clear views on how he wanted to do it. [movement misconceptions? ups and downs? who has led/directed movement?]

The devout Hindu parent was not happy that her son was attempting to strip the Indian context from his teachings. He was becoming a teenager and, as a teacher, wanted to bring Knowledge to a point where it crossed all cultural boundaries. [strip Indian context? like Master, arti, guru worship, Krishna crown, thrones, meditation tech secrecy/monopoly, darshan, agya, lila, Kabir, etc.?]

At the time the organization promoting his teaching was seen as one of the fastest growing movements of its kind in America, if not the world. Maharaji wanted to concentrate on his teaching but was increasingly required to consider the practical aspects of responding to the growing number of requests from around the world asking him to come and speak. Now added to this he was maintaining a discreet romantic liaison right under the noses of a family that would certainly disapprove of such a relationship on grounds of race and caste. [maintaining discreet romantic liaison[s] right under the noses of a family?]

She accused her youngest son of betraying every tradition she held sacred. She disowned him and returned to India. Once there she helped his elder brother start a separate movement. The strain of this rift with his family took its toll on Maharaji's health. [betraying every sacred tradition?]

However his work continued, as did the process of putting down roots in America. In 1974, when being driven up the Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu, he saw a dilapidated structure atop an isolated mountain and it caught his eye. The leaking bungalow, built as a weekend retreat by a Hollywood director, was some way off from the celebrated beach-side community. Maharaji was unaware of the prestige of the area, but the beauty of the landscape was breathtaking and gave him a sense of refuge from the very adult responsibilities that he had to face on a daily basis. [walled Malibu hilltop 'dilapidated structure'/'leaking bungalow' with tennis court, pool, gardens, unpaid cult servants! / unaware of the prestige?]

The family still live in the same house, now rebuilt and added to. Maharaji relishes it as his quiet family retreat, when taking a break from his busy schedule of relentless travel and tours. [rebuilt and added added added to]
 
He has often talked of the times when, as a small child, he would hear planes flying overhead and dream of becoming a pilot.

At fourteen, accompanied by an instructor, he took his first flight as a student pilot in a Cessna 172, a small four-seater, single engine plane, and his career as a pilot began in earnest. ['career' as a pilot]

By the age of twenty two, in 1980, he had received a type rating in a Citation II, which is a small business jet, and was also given an instrument rating on the same flight. Most pilots get their first instrument rating in a single engine plane, the Citation is by comparison, a much more demanding and complex plane. [most pilots can't afford it]

What is notable and quite unusual in Maharaji’s track record as a pilot is his achievement of a broad array of type ratings in a relatively short span of time. Maharaji has a natural ability for flying and has made rapid progress through ratings for jets, helicopters and gliders. [who financed this broad array of aircraft, not owned by the non-profit church/organization which solicited the money?]

In 1983, Maharaji was given an Airline Transport Pilot License. One month later he received his type rating for a Boeing 707. By this time, he had also become a qualified helicopter pilot, and was to receive a private license for gliders in 1984. Just under ten years later, Maharaji qualified to fly a Gulfstream IV. [who paid for all these planes? what organization solicited/spent the money? but who actually owns the planes? why the diversion of all church assets to a separate private company controlled by m's inner circle? supports, protects, hides what and whom?]

Maharaji’s passion for flying is led by his commitment to regularly travel the world in order to bring his message to as broad an audience as possible. A jet is leased for this purpose as the schedule is often demanding, and it has proven virtually impossible to conveniently and safely construct it around commercial flight schedules. [impossible on commercial airlines -- like the Dalai Lama or Detroit Pistons or New York Yankees or Britney Spears? jet is leased? but the jet funding was solicited by DLM/EV and purchased for Elan Vital - a non-profit org by premies? why weren't the donors informed that the non-profit org would not be the owner of the jets and other assets generated from the thousands of contributions sent to Elan Vital? if EV were sued by a cult victim and lost bigtime, who would end up controlling All the assets accumulated from the premies' donations? Do any EV statements show zero assets and revenues? Wadahamar revenues? taxes paid by m. for the yacht purchased for the 'owner's' personal use and benefit? reporting of all cash and valuable gifts in the registered church not a religion guru minister worship adulation darshan?]

Elan Vital is fortunate that Maharaji is a qualified pilot and he likes that this arrangement offers him greater flexibility... For him, being a pilot is both a personal pleasure and a practical tool. [a personal pleasure - an ultra-expensive hobby? subsidized by whom?]

Maharaji has never been one to do something because it is the expected thing to do. His successful lifestyle does not fit with general concepts of what a teacher or master should be like. He is very open about the fact that for him there is absolutely no conflict between enjoyment of the things of this world while also pursuing a path of inner fulfillment, provided you are clear about where your priorities lie. For him there is a big distinction between enjoying material comforts and becoming attached to them. However when you take a closer look, he certainly doesn't lead what could be termed a high life. ['successful lifestyle'? 'provided you are clear where your priorities are'! 'big distinction between enjoying material comforts and becoming attached to them' -- ok, prove it! give up all the riches - ALL of it! certainly doesn't lead a 'high life'? $40 million jet, helicopter, $7 million yacht, 28,000 sq ft main residence + others, Rolls Royces Mercedes Ferraris Lamborghinis Aston Martins, gold-plated toilet fixtures, Rolex collection, mistress setup/perks, servants, chauffeur, personal secretary, valet, cook, gardener, Presidential hotel suites, bodyguards, choice pot, cognac, etc.?]

His life has been extraordinary: a childhood that reads like an episode from the notoriously complicated Indian sagas; publicity which both extols and damns him; from a teenage father to a father of teenagers; an artist; a musician; a computer buff; a qualified pilot; a successful businessman; and most of all an inspiring and articulate teacher with tens of thousands of assiduous students across all barriers of race, culture and religion. [a successful guru business man? +/- publicity (by whom?) which both extols and damns him?]

In private he comes across as a shy person though with an outrageous sense of humor. Speak to people who know him well and you find that he is at best a one-of-a-kind visionary, at worst unfathomable. And yet he is eminently practical, as reflected by his grasp of and liking for mechanics, electronics, flying, composing music, and the artistic and technical aspects of producing professional quality materials to promote his teachings. Kind is a description of him that frequently crops up and one insider comments: 'he can be tough, demanding and very focused on the standards he wants to achieve. However even when he’s had to take someone to task he always follows up with a reassurance that mistakes happen not because people are stupid or incapable, just that they have forgotten to be conscious of their actions.' Maharaji’s own take on this: 'When you slip on a banana skin, you can’t blame the banana or the person who threw it there. It was you, through a moment of unconsciousness, didn’t look where you were walking.' [eminently practical? explain kind, tough, demanding, mistakes, his involvement in 'producing' the materials which promote him?]

[r.e. the unmentioned miscellaneous little details omitted: vehicular manslaughter + hit and run, aiding and abetting top aide murder assailants, m. cult abuses, gross diversion of immense non-profit donations, revisionism about m's Lord and Perfect Master claims, the rituals, worship, belief system, 'misconceptions', shifting the blame, passing the buck[s]...
---- Maharaji’s own take on this: 'When you slip on a banana skin, you can’t blame the banana or the person who threw it there. It was you, through a moment of unconsciousness, didn’t look where you were walking.']

[Does this sound like a genuine spiritual Master to you?]

Well, folks, nobody can truthfully blame us here. Just the facts, ma'am...

[Note: to the general public, aspirants, premies, and their relatives: see for yourselves on this website the detailed documentation of official records and eyewitness top-level insider accounts]

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:39:00 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: A perfect example of how history is bunk
Message:
Or rather, so-called history.

Such! Your post is great. It clearly demonstrates that written history is so slanted, so selective, so spin-doctored as to make one ill with dizziness.

All the scriptures and holy legends are subject to the same thing, the inevitable hidden agenda to propagandize to justify or conceal temporal ambition for power (wealth).

I mean, who was Krishna, really? Rama, Vishnu, et al.? Valmiki and Tulsidas each had a more or less inspired agenda to perpetuate a legend, to 'tell the story', but while the actual scene was unfolding how-many-thousands of years ago, it may have been no more 'spiritual' than a feud between the Hatfields and the McCoys. It's the spin-doctors and apostles that create the inflated rhetoric and momentum, and then human gullibility takes over. Priest-class gets established. Soon it's landgrabbing and sleight-of-hand miracles and centuries of factioning. Same old same old.

Which is not to say there isn't beauty and instructive moral lessons to be learned from such legend-making. Even Aesop teaches much about human nature and the resolving of moral dilemmas. It just ain't history, that's all.

Governments, gurus, corporations . . . who can you trust? Your post reminds me yet again to be extremely skeptical, or at least cautious, of any 'official position' emanating from any organization. As time goes on, it is harder than ever not to be cynical about reportage. It's all about marketing, public relations, and advertising. Propaganda!

Are we expected to just immediately lap it up? Maybe not, but it is through repetition, repetition, repetition that the official position gets established. Weary humans can only absorb so much info, and memory is short in any case. Despots know this very well, and thrive. Which does not mean that an official position is static. Oh no, it can be altered to confront changing conditions. But it will be justified and reinforced with the same or increased vigor. It is all so Orwellian.

Facts, actions, and results simply and accurately reported -- sounds like it should be easy. But I guess there is no 'science of history' to get us to the truth (small 't'), too many competing voices to be the final word. We can only share our stories, and life is only so long.

It seems the essential premie vs expremie argument centers around the familiar conflict between 'higher' spiritual (i.e., inwardly experienced) and feeling-based understanding called 'Truth' and the more 'wordly' scientific (i.e., objectively provable) or historical fact-based understanding called truth. Is there ever any balance between these two world views?

However, one would expect that an Avatar of Truth would have other than contempt for 'worldly', i.e., verifiable, truth. Interesting, no? But I forget: the Satguru is unbounded by mere human expectations, and is, in fact, above all temporal law and responsibility. Who can argue with that paradigm?

And regardless of the lingo -- master/teacher/guru or god -- this imaginary and narcissistic private universe is one that M and his devotees (and many a similar group) desperately need in order to flourish. Blissful co-dependency.

I wouldn't expect him to capitulate nor have a soul-searching change of heart. He is probably completely convinced he is the (or at least 'a') Master 'for this age', as the living exponent of his lineage, family disagreements notwithstanding.

Again, thanks for your vigilant and thoughtful post.

Cheers,
Carl

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 06:31:54 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: yer welcome (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 01:26:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: Oh, Glen Whittaker! ''...born KING of yogis?''
Message:
Bal = born

Yogi = not the bear or the baseballer.

Eshwar means the lord god ultimate creator big kahuna the boss.

Hindu hyperbole aside it cannot be translated as ''king.''

Nice bit of Orwellian rewriting Mr Whitwash Whittaker.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:42:29 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: yeah, thought 'twas a curious EV 'translation'(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:16:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yet another Lord
Message:
I was doing a web search for 'eshwar' and I came across a web page about yet another Lord, this one needs a fashion consultant.

Lord Lahari Krishna

I tried clicking different parts of the page but nothing happens.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 12:42:50 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Yet another Lord
Message:
Hi

I have complet faith, that by his infinit grace, Maharaji will clone me so many times, that I can follow all this wonderfull manifastations of the one and only.

wolfie ...drowning in a crowd of holy ones :)

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:43:36 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Lahari Krishna: He alone is Holy! Holy!! Holy!!!
Message:
I bet he preaches at the breakfast table. What a piously ponderous (but earnest) face. Glad I don't sit opposite him at breakfast every morning. He looks more like a post-master at the local post-office than an avatar of Krishna. How many avatars of the Blue One do we have now? How is this possible? Did thay clone Krishna?
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 13:43:31 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: How many God incarnates?
Message:
That's what I wondered, how many people are running around claiming to be the one and only God-in-human-form? Of these, how many Krishnas, how many Christs? how many Buddhas?

It reminds me of the game show 'What's My Line?', except this this a bit different. In the game show, there was someone with a certain type of job and two fakes. The contestents ask the three people questions, then they are supposed to guess which one is the real McCoy. Except here, when asked what is your professsion, they say 'God', and when asked

Will the real God-in-a-bod please stand up?

All these fakes stand up.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:26:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: their arti
Message:
I figured out how to get to the other pages: by pressing next at the bottom of each page. Here is the next page, which has their version of arti:

Victory to the Lord of the Universe

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 20:14:06 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: G
Subject: their arti is crappier than ours ..
Message:
all those thees ,thous , thines : those inferior satgurus are such old fuddy-duddies .

How I hate all this shit ,I believe there's an org in India that goes around shooting some of the more out of order of these bastards . Anyone know if they've got a website .I'd be interested in looking at it .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 03:48:23 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: G
Subject: it's like deja vu - oy vey!!!! Leapin' lizards!(nt
Message:
Victory to Lord Lahari Krishna, the Lord of the Universe!

'Victory to Lord Lahari Krishna, the Lord of the Universe
Who removes our miseries and bodily pains
Who showers happiness and prosperity
On those who meditate on Him.
 
Thou art our Father and our Mother
We can always find shelter in Thee.
There is none else besides Thee.
Where we can put our faith.
 
You are the Supreme Lord in everyone’s heart.
Master of All and Protector of All
We are fools and ask only for Thy boons.
Have mercy on us, Thou Ocean of Mercy.
 
Unseen by the senses, Thou art the Lord of all souls.
How may dullards like us ever hope to meet with Thee?
Thou art the Friend of the poor.
Thou Remover of our sorrows.
Thou art our Lord and we are at Thy door.
Please extend Thine Hand and lift us up.
 
O Lord, take away our sins and erase our material attachments.
Help us increase our faith and serve the saints.'   

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 03:29:37 (GMT)
From: bill-christ! even now he
Email: None
To: such
Subject: slams and lies about his mom.
Message:
In the facts section bananand quotes,

'The devout Hindu parent was not happy that her son was attempting to strip the Indian context from his teachings.'

It is a lie and covers up why she felt he was out of his mind.
Why she felt his behaviour was 'despicable' was NOT because of
some propagation issue.

Even in death he wont leave her alone. He lies about her.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 08:23:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: bill-christ! even now he
Subject: If Hindus did not cremate corpses the Holy Cow
Message:
would be spinning in her grave. I wonder how ashes get their tits in a tangle?
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:26:01 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's Obsolescence
Message:
Nobody in their right mind would take a person they respected to a video of Maharaji, or whatever name he's asking people to call him today.

As I said recently, I brought around 50 new people to videos over the last ten years or so. One of them received the techniques of knowledge last year. The rest quit, and more and more walked out of the first video as the years went by. 50 drips, you could say. I'm slow but I'm not stupid.

Something's evolving. In the seventies there were reports of a few accomplished or famous people receiving the techniques from the Haha's cronies. These days it would be unimaginable. A change is as good as a rest, so they say.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:16:15 (GMT)
From: clarence clear
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Maharaji's Obsolescence
Message:
Hi
You were obviously better at being a premie than I ever was I never dared take anyone to a video or a programme. Thinking about it now maybe I always knew it was a load of bull, but couldn't admit it. Ah well being older and wiser has it's compensations. As for your other post you are doing sterling work on your reporting. Please don't make yourself sick.
Best wishes Clarence
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:53:43 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: A Treat - Quotes From The Great King
Message:
Excerpts from Haharaji's recent Rome program interspersed with commentary from the superpwk who's been given the privilege to comment on the great king's superwords. I hope you can tell which are Haha's words and which are the superpwk's - if you can't tell the difference just remember that if it actually makes a little sense, it comes from the ELK superpwk.

'This is all I have ever done: tell people that there is something real in this fake world.' This is how Maharaji described his life's work on the opening night of the Rome event.

So this is all he's ever done. False promises and slave labour don't count, I guess - they're fake things in this fake world, according to his brilliant thinking, I guess.

What is so remarkable about him as that although he says this is all he has ever done, he manages to approach the subject of Knowledge in a ever expanding myriad of illuminating ways.

So the superpwk is impressed by the modesty of the great king. I suppose great kings are supposed to be modest, I dunno really.

People had asked him about whether he would like to travel into outer space. He said he would like to, but qualified this by saying: 'There is a space inside me that is more spectacular than outer space.'

What king of space is he talking about that's inside him, maybe between his large and small intestine - I'm just guessing. And how does he know that that inner space is more spectacular than outer space when he's never been to outer space?

I was going to do more but I'm starting to feel sick - I'm risking my good health and hard earned sanity to do this report.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:38:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: A sensible not space-cadet post, Steve.
Message:
I especially liked this: ''And how does he know that that inner space is more spectacular than outer space when he's never been to outer space?''

Precisely. Captain Space-Cadet Rawat rides his rocket straight into subjective oblivion.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:53:04 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: Thanks For The Feedback, Pat
Message:
You can eat my balls any time.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:36:54 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Thanks For The Offer, Steve, But I'll Pass.
Message:
I only eat scrambled eggs.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:16:04 (GMT)
From: clarence clear
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Help! I've just been to Pia's site
Message:
and realise what a scary place it can be for us recent exes. It is full of isn't it all wonderful aren't those exes all awfull etc. I could see through it though which I am very glad about. One bit that really got me was,

'This site exists not to debate with critics but to respond to questions that have arisen from those who have encountered misinformation and miconception about...Maharaji'

Says it all really. They are only there to protect the illusion. I find this very disturbing and very cult like which they are desperatly claiming M org is not. I spoke to a premie I know about becooming an ex. He originaly took it on board and was keen to find out some of the stuff on this site, which has helped me to make up my already mostly made up mind. Now he is evasive and stops me from discussing it. I know he has spent a lot of time recently with a very devout premie. I am not sure how to deal with this any advice gladly recieved. I still feel strong in my ex status despite being described by Pia as being part of a hate group. I don't hate but I am concerned.
Bye clarence

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 00:43:08 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: clarence clear
Subject: Help! I've just been to Pia's site
Message:
Yes it is very sad when people's minds open up and then clamp down again. It's too threatenng for them to imagine life without M. Since you are a new ex, you will encounter that quite a bit, your premie friends being receptive and then not being receptive after being reinforced through more satsang.

It's very disturbing once you have walked through the ex-premie doorway to see others still trapped in premie-think. The saddest part is that people get into arguments over it and get divided over M. One of my friendships is on the rocks about this, and I am at the point where I have almost lost respect for my friend because of the blinders she wears when it comes to Maharaji. But I am trying to hang in there with her.

Take care
Helen

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:28:21 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: clarence clear
Subject: Help! I've just been to Pia's site
Message:
Hi Clarence,

Pia's site is strange. It is there to refute 'false allegations', but it doesn't say what the false allegations actually are. I wrote and asked Pia what she was talking about, but didn't receive a reply.

Does she claim that the allegations about Jagdeo are false? What the hell is she talking about?

Like you say, it's also wierd to bundle ex cult members along with racist groups. Pia is displaying intellectual bankruptcy by letting her cult persona show so publicly.

She's an old friend of mine. Our family and hers have been on holiday together, and she's a bright, feisty woman. But, like all cult members do, she has a blind spot when it comes to the Captain and his bullshit.

I hope she gets the courage to have an objective look at where she's at and what she's said. Maybe then she'll come out of hiding from her divine little bunker and debate openly with us about her allegations.

What's she scared of? Shit, she doesn't even answer my emails (I won't publish them Pia, if that's what you're worried about.)

Anth maybe it's something I said.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:35:55 (GMT)
From: clarence clear
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Pia's site blind spot
Message:
Hi Anth
What you said about a blind spot is right. This is what I am seeing with my friend. I can see I had one too. Even though I had left in the 70's and had nothing to do with it all until recently, I could not bring myself to see through it. I still held on to the idea that M is ok really. Typical cult thinking I suppose.
Yours learning quickly Clarence
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:47:37 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: clarence clear
Subject: Leave no room for doubt in your pop.
Message:
Yup,

It's all to do with faith, and never doubting. It's amazing, you can doubt any fact on earth, then check to see if your doubt was justified, but you can't doubt the Captain or the Knowledge.

That's because, as soon as you do, it falls apart, because it isn't real.

So, if you're not doubting, you have a basic assumption that the Perfect Master is here, he is giving Knowledge of the soul, or whatever, and anything that contradicts this has to be wrong. You don't even need to think about it.

If it's such a wonderful, rich, deep, real experience, how come it gets destroyed by a single tiny little doubt every time. It pops like a balloon meeting a pin.

How come it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, in a reasoned discussion or debate on the topic?

anth the popeyed weasle.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:46:03 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: clarence clear
Subject: As long as they keep reciting the 'hate' label
Message:
... like a mantra, and you keep worrying about it, they've got you. In their minds, any criticism of M is labeled 'hate.' I'm sure that if they thought about it, or read a lot of the contents of this site, they would know that they couldn't blanketly label the people who post here a 'hate group.' And believe me, the premies in the 'know,' have heard some of the stories about M that have been posted here, and possibly lived through them themselves. It just hasn't hit watershed or critical mass with them. And of course, there's always the excuse that anything he does is divine (i.e. teaching, lila (play of the master), etc.) And the PAMs (premies around maharaji) see it for themselves.

But premies who want to buy or chant the party line will continue to call you part of a 'hate group' or whatever. After all, they are afraid you or some of us might be right. All you can do is speak from your own experience. If you are not hating, and you are a person who posts here also, what defense do they have to that argument? And what defense to they have to the argument that there are many reasonable and not hateful people posting on here?

If they can handle it, print up some posts, like Jim Sander's letters (now in the new Best Of) section. Or Nottingham Mole's posts. It's just like being back in kindergarten again. Kind of the nya-nya thing. Well, here's some advice I learned back then:
'Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me.'
'I'm rubber, you're glue, what bounces off me, sticks onto you.'

Who is the hate group, really, in sheep's clothing? Pia and crew, at times. At least they are very willing to lie through their teeth because this is probably considered a divine service. It's not a lie if it's done to protect The Maser. They can't stand free speech. And this site is a major problem for M's PR brigades, because they can't control people just speaking from their own experiences. Many of us old-schoolers learned to do the satsang thing -- i.e. company of truth. We got together and shared the truth as we knew it. With his 'never delay in attending satsang' (one of the original 5 commandments) he started a habit for many of us. We found each other and are having a lot of fun!

By the way, I've been enjoying reading your posts.

love, f

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:04:51 (GMT)
From: clarence clear
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks re Hate
Message:
I agree that they are the ones with hate. I think they are running scared. Scared to look in case they find they are standing on mist. The friend I mentioned, I am sure is fearful to talk to me because he feels safe in the web he is entangled in. It is the same sort of web as the one we can be caught in as children. when we are fed whatever the adults or powers that be want us to believe. We thought that they were the authority figures therefore they must be right, and must be telling the truth. It is very difficult to challenge that, as you not only have to take on them but also your own internalised beliefs,at a time when you have very little power. I think it is exactly the same with premies.I haven't posted on Pia's site I was just looking at it. It says they will only select certain posts to show. Hardly very balanced. Anyway thanks for your post. It was very reassuring I am glad to be back here it feels real unlike over on devotion channel.
Cheers Clarence
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:17:12 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: clarence clear
Subject: Many posts have been sent to Pia
Message:
... by ex premies. She hasn't posted any of them. When the premie who has the Lifes (sic) Great site, Chris Dickey, wrote her to tell her about the inaccuracies on her site, she didn't put up his post, but took off some of the misrepresentations.

For a while people were posting their posts to Pia. I believe Jim, Sir Dave, and many others. However, they may not have made it to the archives yet.

Don't be afraid to read their stuff either, as long as it doesn't keep you from thinking for yourself. In time, it will look pretty foolish.

best wishes, f

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:31:59 (GMT)
From: clarence clear
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Many posts have been sent to Pia ***Says it all
Message:
that does. The site is only there to give out platitudes reinforce the status quo and act as a security blanket. If they are so sure of m and k why can't they be open to all comers. If something is real and solid it can stand up to scrutiny and critisim. It makes me feel angry the way the whole organisation sucks the life and vibrancy out of people. I know so many whose potential is stifled by clinging on to the rawat roadshow. I know it is up to them and not me to move on or not. I just felt annoyed that my friend was at least questioning but as now been got at by others but also I suspect by his own fears.
Best wishes Clarence
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 22:33:17 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: clarence clear
Subject: Many posts have been sent to Pia ***Says it all
Message:
Clarence:

I have not gone there, but the only premie bulletin board that is open to posters from here is Chris Dickey's Lifes (sic) Great. (sic means misspelling, not in the actual title of his site.) I don't know where it is, but some folks have been putting posts up from there.

We are about as welcome there as a raving premie is here, but people ARE allowed free speech within reason, or so I hear. It is not an official EV site, is why.

best -f

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:18:31 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: clarenceclear
Subject: Clarification: by 'their stuff'
Message:
... I mean the premie drek.

--f

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 15:37:26 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Best of Forum page updated/customized
Message:
I've just tried to organize the mess ....

Best of Forum

and quite some updates. Still one month to catch up ....

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 08:54:43 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Das isht goot
Message:
good one. Now I can find my way around :)
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:30:44 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Un medal pour ce bloke.
Message:
Bravo Jean-Michel,

the site continues to improve.

anth the back-seat-art-critic. (encore du vin s'il vous plait garcon)

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:58:36 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Bravo, JM
Message:
You've been doing some wonderful work on the site!

I'm glad that our $10,000 dollars isn't being wasted :)

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:51:49 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I'll have to raise the fees next year ! (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:53:56 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Merci, J-M, you are such a busy little bee
Message:
That is so nicely organized and much easier to negotiate. Thank you.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 18:34:35 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Very Good! The catagories really help (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 19:13:36 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Very Good! Way to go JM- excellent work!
Message:
This should really help newcomers zero in on pertinent information and experienced Forum users find reference posts. Really excellent organization. Even with all your media fame, you still have time for the Forum - impressive indeed.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 22:44:14 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: One Stop Shopping for SELF Mastery
Message:
Dear Jean Paul,

It's time you order your self a bottle of some famous French wine, Dr. Kahn. With the categorization you just created, all the assembled pieces come together. Voila! Mon Dieu !

Even Premie Pal himself might quit the fold, after reading the items on this page of pages you have assembled!(Or at least start drinking a bit earlier in the day than usual)

For the many people sadly still ensconsed in this Rawat belief system : the uninformed, deluded, programmed, fearbased,or confused, that DESERVE a straightfoward and reliable platform to reformat themselves, you have delivered in spades. From Master to SELF Mastery (A-Z)and a dollop of humor, you have created an extraordinary oasis of common sense. If future readers ignore the contents of the site you created, and still give control or spiritual leadership of their lives to Whatever He Calls Himself These Days, so be it.

But I have noticed a whole new wave of long timers disembarking fron the Guru's Boat

And for those, those who wish to reignite and/or resume the journey of journeys towards the Source within,OR for those who want to head off to the pub and laugh off 20 + years of Bollocks, or who want to embrance the simple joys and pleasures of the human frame without bowing curtsying or tithing THE MASTER or his local functionaries, your site is a MUST SEE.

For interested readers: Extra ! Extra ! 'And It Never Was Divine' is now in print. Though WE have always been divine. That,however,is another story for another day ...

Now after dinner, Monsieur le Docteur (Medecin?), I would appreciate if you could assist this fellow veteranarian Dr. Dolitte (Eddie Murphy). He's been having trouble, you see, with these talking critters again . . .

Thanks again, JM.

Mark Appleman

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:10:33 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Hi Mark, How are you?
Message:
I fired off an email to MD when I got here last month. He responded to me via email and mentioned that he's been contacted by numerous people who are upset with their deception of the CULT.

Email me if you get a chance...I'd like to gossip.

Cheers!

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