Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:19:49 (GMT)
From: Jun 24, 2001 To: Jul 02, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Timmi -:- techniques and broadcast -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 14:31:21 (GMT)
__ wolfie -:- not so easy -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:09:53 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- watching the defective -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 15:15:49 (GMT)
__ __ Timmi -:- watching the defective -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 21:50:44 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Maybe you guys should run away together! -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 15:55:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- or our other halves! -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:11:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- The dilemma of mixed relationships -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 14:35:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Astute post John -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 20:17:37 (GMT)

Hadijah -:- Don't Forget to Let Go.... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:05:16 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- We can do this stuff because we're not attachednt -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:20:21 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- What do YOU mean by 'Don't Forget to Let Go....' -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:52:17 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- I can't, I'm stuck. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:52:06 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- Don't Forget that the topic of this forum is.... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:49:15 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- We've definitely let go but just enjoy -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:26:01 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- PS Hadijah, for instance now I want to know more -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:29:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- PS Fat fag now I want to know more too. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 19:23:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- PoP -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 19:45:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- PoP -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 17:14:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- PoP goes the weasel -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 18:41:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Can't go until you've answered all the questions -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:15:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Just got back from brunch. You're probably in bed -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:01:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- PoP -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 20:52:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- When I saw your pic from Latvian Night -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 21:32:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- When you saw your pic from Latvian Night... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 21:56:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I've got special specs, John -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:06:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Cholesterol (ot) -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:21:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Cholesterol and homocysteines(ot) -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 00:30:46 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- What if people don't want to let go? -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 14:48:14 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- how about helping others to Let Go.... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 14:03:16 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- yup..............................nt -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 03:46:15 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- I hear what you are saying, Hadijah -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:34:30 (GMT)

wolfie -:- anserw from a tread below -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:45:52 (GMT)
__ wolfie -:- to Tonette from down below (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 14:24:16 (GMT)

PatC -:- I had Movie Star darshan last night (long post) -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 09:46:12 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Movie Star Darshan stories continues... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 23:22:06 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Movie Star Darshan stories - more, more -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 00:41:37 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- I had Movie Star darshan last night (long post) -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:55:40 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- ****GREAT POST BRIAN***** worth reading!!! -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 05:03:06 (GMT)
__ __ Someone who knows -:- Drummer in Fab T-Birds is Fran Christina not -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 04:04:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- The Drummer in Fab T-Birds is now Fran Christina -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 08:36:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- correction/ -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 08:59:39 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- I know what you mean, but isn't it involuntary?... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:15:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Andy is SO cool! n/t -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 05:06:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Someone who knows -:- It's not 'Boss' Skaggs but Bozz Skaggs and he is -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 04:39:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Correct Spelling = Good Darshan. Thanks ;) NT -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 00:26:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- The Illusion of Celebrity -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 00:08:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Very involuntary - for a while -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 23:47:42 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- Learned and projected aura = emporer's clothes /nt -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:47:21 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- By The Way, That's Better Than Doggie Darshan -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:33:12 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Mick -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:11:09 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- And -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 12:07:10 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- I had Movie Star darshan last night (long post) -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:25:42 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Rock stars, queens and coming out of the closet -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:18:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- Amen, brother, Amen to that !!! BTW - - - -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 01:18:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hunks aren't my type. I'm a snob. -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 07:53:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- I hear you -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:36:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- A hunk a hunk of burnin love -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 18:36:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- da Godfather's wife used 2 ask me 2 sing that! (nt -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:57:03 (GMT)

Mr. Mind -:- How to exploit/from EV newsletter -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 09:05:46 (GMT)

La-ex -:- You are warmly invited to donate...(not kidding) -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:27:59 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Wow, that's incredible -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:05:26 (GMT)
__ janet -:- woo. hoo. (cough). yip. pee.(wheeze.) bye. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 09:39:28 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- Rawat's token propogation efforts -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 07:26:57 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Rawat's TOKEN propogation efforts -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 09:51:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- I liked his tokin' efforts better -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 20:42:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- If his divine scam fails he can do ads as the new -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:08:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- He's just chumming -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 10:25:33 (GMT)

La-ex -:- This 'peace of mind' thing.I've got a question -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:11:51 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Yes. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:39:52 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- This 'peace of mind' thing is dangerous -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 10:01:00 (GMT)
__ __ Lesley -:- This 'peace of mind' thing is dangerous -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 19:42:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- I'll say it for you: Rawat a loathsome little slug -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 19:52:40 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- India -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:38:35 (GMT)

Jim -:- Superficial, superstitious, pompous and wrong -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:26:07 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Hmm, By golly, I 'recognise' those feelings. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:35:46 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Brilliant! you did it again Jim -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:03:51 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Brilliant! you did it again Jim -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:37:57 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Knowledge = paint stripper? -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:15:25 (GMT)
__ MK -:- THAT SUBJECT HEADER SUMS UP YOUR POST PERFECTLY! -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:43:14 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Are you cerise?----------nt -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:32:32 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- Serious question, MK. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:27:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ MK -:- Serious answer KH. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:33:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, MK -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 13:54:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian -:- Bold question -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:02:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Hint about using HTML on the forum -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 14:10:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Thank you * -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:13:43 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Stop shouting and explain, please, MK... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:58:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ MK -:- maybe Jim was the bloody Pharoah in Egypt I slaved -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:47:28 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Bonus question for you, MK -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:49:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ MK -:- That's a good one, and I agree... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:00:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Weird -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:05:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ MK -:- A 'modern' premie? Oh, I hope... -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:09:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- So is Maharaji God? -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:01:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- Yes -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 17:55:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- My cat too... -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:18:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- My cat too...but not my neighbour! -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 05:21:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Rawat claims to be Super Duper -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:49:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 15:28:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ MK -:- What? Where, Why, When, and with whom? -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:39:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Don't you have to have a body to have hands? -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:53:20 (GMT)
__ bill-My reccomedation to -:- any ex with a program near them. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:34:49 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- any ex with a program near them....For sure? -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:51:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill-Yes they will and I -:- volunteer to be the contact person...nt -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 02:37:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Bill - out of the frying pan and into the fire? -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 14:44:21 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Superficial, superstitious, pompous and wrong -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:07:57 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Paint -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:08:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- a post from bob from below -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:12:34 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Autobiography Of A Yogi -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 18:17:16 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Autobiography Of A bullshit artist liar. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 03:01:26 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Good Post -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:42:50 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Evolution Vs. Creation -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 01:20:53 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Celestine Idiot -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 03:07:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Celestine Idiot -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 13:49:33 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- One Step Further -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:23:35 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Hans Yog Prakash:'The servant is his Master's dog' -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 20:01:06 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- Really? A chapter called ''Servant or Slave?''... -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 00:41:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- A chapter called 'Servant or Slave': -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:54:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- YIKES! K-Lite it's NOT. It's really TOO HORRIBLE -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 18:38:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- 'Servant or Slave': That's some sick shit, Swami -:- Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:52:25 (GMT)
__ __ Deborah -:- You are such-a-wise-banana!.../nt -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 20:41:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- You're A Sweetheart, Deborah -:- Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 04:28:03 (GMT)

nagual -:- don puerco -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 13:38:25 (GMT)
__ cq -:- El Porco- oops, sorry, didn't mean to get familiar -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 19:06:46 (GMT)
__ wolfie -:- too much enlightenment -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 15:27:26 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- too much lighting up! dem drugs sho give good -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:13:55 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- I don't understand what you're talking about .. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 00:23:19 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Spinning silver disc -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:28:52 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Hi Nagual, most of us know this stuff already -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 19:04:29 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Naggie, thanks but ... -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 18:41:23 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- don puerco -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 14:10:44 (GMT)

Peter Howie -:- The only proof needed - we exist - so fuck off! -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 08:52:47 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- Releasing feels good, doesn't it!.... -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 21:33:15 (GMT)
__ __ Peter Howie -:- Releasing feels good, doesn't it!....Thanks D -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 22:29:04 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Aha,finally a purpose for you lawyers.Nice nt -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 16:37:00 (GMT)
__ clarence clear -:- The only proof needed - we exist - so fuck off! -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 09:45:40 (GMT)

Peter Howie -:- 'Drips' and Learning - a way to look at it -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 08:07:53 (GMT)
__ Gina -:- Great Sunday morning read...Thank you. (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:34:07 (GMT)
__ Dave Punshon -:- 'Drips' and Learning - a way to look at it -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:19:25 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Tribute To The French Government -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 07:18:48 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- Tribute To The French Government -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 07:39:52 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Good Post There, Sir nt -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 07:50:31 (GMT)

Henry -:- Rawat statements can't bear logical scrutiny -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 03:19:12 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Rawat statements can't bear logical scrutiny -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 17:35:16 (GMT)
__ Wildflower -:- M is a school dropout at 6th grade level -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 14:09:17 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- M is a school dropout at 6th grade level -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 14:13:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- M not just a high-school dropout -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 21:28:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Business Savvy Devotees -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 22:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- employees -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:17:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Business Savvy Devotees -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:05:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Everyone read this!!!! -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 21:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- It was LBJ who said it -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:25:31 (GMT)
__ Gina -:- I think the answer is #4. All of the above. (nt) -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:49:30 (GMT)

Bob -:- Placebo and knowledge and darshan -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 01:52:10 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Control group crucially important here.. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 08:23:23 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- Control group crucially important here.. -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 09:44:19 (GMT)
__ Henry -:- Placebo and knowledge and darshan -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 03:28:17 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- Placebo -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 10:21:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Placebo -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 11:57:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- This is called 'sensory deprivation' -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:16:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- Traffic ticket -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 01:25:18 (GMT)

la-ex -:- a theory about Pia and her site... -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 00:14:26 (GMT)
__ Deborah -:- regarding your theory about Pia and her site... -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 21:59:03 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Hey, that was my theory! -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 22:14:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Hey, that was my theory/The Excuse -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 07:04:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- No No -- It's my theory! -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:11:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disgusted -:- Theory is not reality -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:53:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Sorry the plot was sick before I joined -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 23:41:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Theory is not reality -:- Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:42:36 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- And no real debate -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 18:57:53 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- my possibly misplaced faith in human beings -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 01:53:28 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- I doubt it's Pia's trip. -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 03:44:42 (GMT)
__ Ian Dury -:- a theory about Pia and her site... -:- Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 00:37:16 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 14:31:21 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: techniques and broadcast
Message:
As for those techniques....didn't everyone as a child press on their eyeballs to see the weird things it produces? The changes in the blood circulation and pressure in the eye make interesting things to 'see'. That is a technique of knowledge? The same sort of thing happens when you put your thumbs in your ears. It sounds weird. And if anybody thinks I am going to try and stick my tongue in my nose from the inside, they need serious help! Was anybody lucky enough to watch the broadcast? He didn't say anything, but at least it only took him an hour to not say anything. No, wait, he did tell the audience to be grateful they live at a time when they have a master to show them these things. No wonder people stay with him. All he does is tell them they have to listen to him and convince people they can't make it without him. That they will forget everything, etc. Is that all he has going for him? I don't like to watch/listen to those broadcasts, because my mind is seething with replies I long to make to his statements, but I can't---at least yet. If, however, he thinks he is going to continue to entrap my husband, he is going to have to do it with me sitting right beside my husband. I hope and pray that my love and real presence will eventually replace whatever garbage the Raj has been shoving into my husband's head for all these years. Thanks, everybody, for listening to me. I have to blow steam somewhere now, and thank heavens I found this place!
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:09:53 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: not so easy
Message:
Hi Timmi,

when you would push him to a decision: Me or Maharaij? This can kill your relation. Maybe the problem is not Maharaji, maybe it is something deeper. Maybe he misses something and maybe you miss something you both can not explain so easy. Maybe for him, Maharaji is only the excuse do be lazy, and maybe you expected a mor busy one. Maharaji always is good for irrational behaviour. When you really like someone, according to my own experience the stuff with Maharaji gets secondary, I watched it in a few relations, but soon as troubles come in, then a premie always comes up with that stuff that he/she knows something that the other one does not know and then you can discuss endlessly.
Did he meditate during your Honeymoon? I'm nearly sure this was secondary in that time.

ciao ...wolfie

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 15:15:49 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: watching the defective
Message:
That reminds me of the time - the one and only time - MrsT prevailed upon me to attend one of the Master's video sessions.

The 'event' was open to all, and we were on holiday in Cornwall, in the far South-West of England where there are a few premies who continue to cling to their sad and futile delusions.

Anyway, along I went for the video show, to listen to that unhappily shouting voice for an hour or so. I didn't make a donation, I'm happy to say, and it was pretty dire. All I can remember that the Master made fun of men who wear loud ties and of people who go to the movies. Not too much spiritual content there, then.

But I was discombobulated. Why should such a worshipped and wealthy creep indulge in negative satorial comment on fashions in neck-ties? Surely just to let the audience of defects feel a little superior to the common man (who seems to be doing rather better than many of the defects, as it happens).

But knocking movie-goers was hilarious! We were ourselves at the movies. We were merely watching the play of coloured light on a screen while listening to a recording of the Master's Voice. Yet that screechy horrid voice was making fun of people who go to the movies to experience thrills, emotions and feelings as part of the movie-going experience. Wierd, so very wierd! We were there exactly to experience ersatz emotions a la movies!!

Afterwards I commented on what a load of tosh it had all been and some premies agreed that the verbal content was (ahem) crap. But it was graciously explained to me that really, one needed the heart connection to appreciate the real message. And that only comes with Knowledge.

What a smug and superior sanctimonious in-group premies have become! And how distasteful to anyone of democratic instincts.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 21:50:44 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: JohnT
Subject: watching the defective
Message:
I've seen him trash things like he did with going to the movies in the video you saw and think, 'Good grief! That is exactly the mindless sort of thing he wants from these people!' He contradicts himself way too much, just for starters. Why do premies seem to simply be putting in time until they can 'sit in front of Maharaji' again. Like he gives a rap about them? Are they crazy? I know one woman who has borrowed thousands and thousands of dollars to go to events and she just mopes about until she can go to another one. Jeez! Keep away from me! And, though our honeymoon was brief, probably the shortest on record, he did practice during it, to answer wolfie. But, I am here and passionately in love with him. Rawat is far away.
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 15:55:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Maybe you guys should run away together!
Message:
You know, I was just doing the math .....

:)

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:11:01 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: or our other halves!
Message:
Perhaps Mr Timmi and MrsT would make a good match as well, eh?

Except, as far as I can tell, MrsT has never really got off on premie men. She's got a number of platonic relationships with premie guys (you know, the kind where the woman says 'just good friends' but the feller never quite gives up hope...) But she seems to prefer her men pragmatic rather than newaged.

I do wonder about Mr Timmi. Have his past relationships been within the cult, or have they also been with 'outsiders'?

Actually, this stuff is a little awkward to talk about as one cannot but help talk about someone else in a rather personal way, and that doesn't feel right. Perhaps that's why we don't have much discussion of the topic here, even though there seem to be quite a few people who are or have been involved in 'mixed relationships' who visit the forum from time to time.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 14:35:09 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: The dilemma of mixed relationships
Message:
Hi JohnT -
Before there were very many people on this forum, the most heart-rending posts came from people who were married or involved with premies and found the forum to ask for help about what to do. It's been REALLY helpful to have people like you, Tony, Timmi, Magnolia, and so forth here in order to talk with people - because the rest of us really don't know much of what to say. I've learned a little bit from talking to two female friends who are EX-premies married to very devoted premies, but still have never been there. (My biggest accomplishment was getting these two women to e-mail each other!)

Anyway, thanks - I know it's not easy to talk about, but it's needed.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 20:17:37 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Astute post John
Message:
Dear John:

I know, I know. But your input because of your situation however, is probably invaluable to Timmi and to lurkers who are similarly situated. But I think you are spot on in that there is a lot going on in a person by themselves, and the overlay of the dynamic of the relationship and the two people involved. In other words, the premie factor is only one piece of a very complex puzzle, as individual, in some aspects, as the two people involved.

And though my husband and I met as premies, and later exited during the same time period (him way quicker than me), I know of couples where one person seems to purposely marry someone who thinks that the trip dearest to their heart and psyche is a crock-a-shite. Maybe it's a cry for help!

Mrs. T sounds like she's got some brains, and wants to hear an opposing point of view rather than same old same old. Good for her!

love, f

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:05:16 (GMT)
From: Hadijah
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Don't Forget to Let Go....
Message:
I stumbled across this site quite by chance ... I was once a 'premie' but left the 'organisation' 20 years ago because it didn't feel right ... that was all I knew ... it was a decision I felt good about inspite of the hell and damnation I was promised. I was recently invited to Nottingham and decided to go, after all this time, to see how I felt ... after one session (which was all I attended) I knew it was something I do not want to re-pursue.

Since then, out of curiosity, I decided to see what was going on ... reading these posts has been fascinating but it doesn't change anything because I let go a long time ago ... as others may or may not choose to do in their own time.

It's always interesting to look at all the facts, and thankyou to those of you who have taken the time to speak out, but inspite of the facts we still need to accept responsibility for our own lives. There will always be gurus who want to lead and those who want to follow ... and until they both get off the tread-wheel he may, for some, be the lesser of two evils.

Obsession with anything surely has two aspects ... 'for' or 'against' ... but isn't it the same pre-occupation? Whereas letting go means doing just that ... and walking away.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 02:20:21 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Hadijah
Subject: We can do this stuff because we're not attachednt
Message:
cc
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:52:17 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Hadijah
Subject: What do YOU mean by 'Don't Forget to Let Go....'
Message:
It's very weird to me that people come on to this forum, read fascinating stuff about their own history and then have the gaul to question our dedicated input.

Now imaagine that the evening news featured a 43 yr. Hindu pilot who has thousands (?) of followers who leave careers, school, spouses, children and their own ambitions to follow his programs. The news reporter goes on to describe how the governments are concerned with the cult and the material amass of luxuries only familiar to multi-millionaires, etc. etc.

You think 'Wow, I can't believe it - that's Maharaji...I caaan't believe it!!!'

The cameras cut to a highway scene with Maharaji in a limosine being escorted out of town (he's on his way to his luxury jet) and a whole convoy of cars are protecting him. Think OJ to conjure a cool image of what this would be like. Helicopters are flying over the highway filming this while cameras are cutting to groups of histerical premies around the world waving fists at reporters and saying he is the perfect master - you'll never get away with this. Other premies are jumping out of windows and ....

'This is getting real interesting, OH SHIT! who do I call, EV, oh shit I'm not registered as a premie any more - how can I find out what 's going on?'

BaddaBoom BaddaBing you type ex-premies.org and find out.

Cool eh?

Did that answer your question?

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:52:06 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Hadijah
Subject: I can't, I'm stuck.
Message:
Hi Hadijah,

If you were tied up with Rawat's cult as long as I was, (about 25 years) I think you'd see it differently. It's not simply a case of turning around, walking away and forgetting about it.

There are stages you go through when you cease heavy involvement with a cult. It's coming round to three years now since I consciously quit, and I still don't feel the sand has settled yet.

My exit has taken time, and involving myself in the forum has helped me get a handle on everything. Some of the discussions I've had with people here have been particularly helpful.

I've enjoyed the journey out, and like la-ex says above, I also feel quite liberated since I quit the liberation game. It's a positive experience to be involved on the forum, and, from time to time, to yell at the false God I worshipped for so many years.

Anth, casualty of the 40s, product of the 50s, lost the map in the 60s, didn't find it again until the 90s, (plus it got wet and the ink ran)

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:49:15 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Hadijah
Subject: Don't Forget that the topic of this forum is....
Message:
... ''Ex-Premie'', and all things related to that. That is the purpose of this forum, to provide a place to talk about those things. So naturally, that is what gets talked about most. When new visitors come here and tell us we seem obsessed, they need to remember the topic the forum is dedicated to.

We often squeeze in other off-topic stuff, but if it happens too much, the Forum Administrator starts deleting posts, and reminds us to stay on topic. There are other places on the internet to discuss other things, and many of us here talk about other stuff with each other via email. My point is, we are not as obssesed as you might think, by only reading what we post HERE. We're just staying on topic.

Many of the people who post here are clever and amusing, too. It's not all angst, it's entertaining also.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:26:01 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Hadijah
Subject: We've definitely let go but just enjoy
Message:
each other's company here, chewing the fat and listening to each others' stories.
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:29:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PS Hadijah, for instance now I want to know more
Message:
about you and also you've piqued my curiosity about attending Nottingham. Do tell.
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 19:23:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PS Fat fag now I want to know more too.
Message:
Hi Pat,

I read somewhere recently you were around in the Palace of Peace days. Tell me more. We lived in London then, in the Education Ashram. How long were you around?

Anth the 37 bus.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 19:45:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: PoP
Message:
I lived in Streatham from end of 73 to July of 75 and went to the PoP nearly every night. I've often wondered if I had seen you in those days. Wasn't the education ashram near the PoP? You probably were one of the high holy muckety-mucks I was scared of. I think I would have remembered if I had given you one of my notorious ''massages'' in the first aid closet to the left of the main entrance to the auditorium.

Actually I learned to give massages in the education ashram the week before the festival in Copenhagen. Whatshername, M's midwife, taught us. In Copenhagen I spent most of the time in the first aid tent giving massages to freaked out WPC brothers. I once was so excited by one beautiful brother I pushed too hard. Later we found out that he had pneumonia and I had collapsed his lung. Broke my heart. He was an angel,

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 17:14:07 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PoP
Message:
Hi Pat,

We lived in Tulse Hill and West Norwood. Whereabouts in Streatham were you? I knew lots of the premies around there.

One of my big memories of the Palace of Peace is an American premie, who unstrapped his false leg and threw it at the stage one evening.

Thanks for warning me about your massage technique.

Anth, Open uppa your heart...

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 18:41:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: PoP goes the weasel
Message:
I don't remember the address of the house in Streatham. Hey it was 26 years ago. But it was within walking distance of the High Street and the park and not far from the Britrail station.

I missed the wooden-leg throwing Yank. Must have been giving a massage.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 21:15:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Can't go until you've answered all the questions
Message:
Can you remember any of the people who lived in the house with you?

And have you ever seen a movie called Personal Services, directed by Terry Jones, of the Monty Python team? That too is set in a road off Streatham High St. If you haven't seen it, I'd recommend it highly. It's based on the true story of a Madame called Cynthia Payne, who ran her house of ill repute at the above mentioned abode.

Anth who sometimes forgets his address too.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:01:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Just got back from brunch. You're probably in bed
Message:
Sorry I missed you. I lived in a house with John and Pat Doyle with whom I was in a group marriage and a bunch of El Salvadorans. (You can now see nude porno pics of John on the net taken when he was in Oz. I'm not sure if he knows about them.)

I will look out for that movie. Sounds like just my cup of tea. I prefer true stories to fiction.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 20:52:52 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PoP
Message:
I received knowledge in an ashram near the PoP December 10th 1973, having come down from Leeds looking for a Mahatma two weeks earlier. I stayed in the WPC house in Gypsy Hill until just before Christmas. I went home for Christmas, but then hitchhiked back to London on New Years Day, and moved into Brighton ashram on Jan 3rd. During the time in London I went to the PoP every evening and during the day when I wasn't working to do service. We also had outings from Brighton on Saturday nights where half of the ashram premies were allowed out:-)

So anyway, Pat, I must have seen you there.

John.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 21:32:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: When I saw your pic from Latvian Night
Message:
I did remember your face which hasn't changed one bit in 28 years. But I think I saw you also in Brighton ashram or Bath in 75 when Arthur Brigham was touring.
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 21:56:25 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: When you saw your pic from Latvian Night...
Message:
... you must have been using some lens that makes things look thinner, which I was, signicantly, in 1974:-)

John

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:06:22 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I've got special specs, John
Message:
for looking at myself in the mirror so I don't have a heart attack. It makes everyone look thinner but doesn't reduce cholesterol unfortunately.

Trouble is I can't see Callista Flockhart when I watch Buffy the Vampire Slayer or whatever she's in.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:21:48 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Cholesterol (ot)
Message:
My mother was concerned about my cholesterol level as I am overweight, and eat eggs from our hens most mornings (these are from the best fed hens in Latvia). So she insisted I join her in having our cholesterol levels tested. It turned out mine was slightly below normal, but hers was off the scale! And she doesn't even eat the eggs.

Such is life.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 00:30:46 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Cholesterol and homocysteines(ot)
Message:
Mine's sky high but its hereditary. Fortunately one of my customers is a world famous walking medical encyclopedia. He gave up doctoring to study and is now consulted by physicians from all over the world. His conclusion is that cholesterol is not a major factor in heart disease. Homocysteines are the biggest culprits.

I was always skeptical of the cholesterol theory because I was still in pharmacy when the anti-lipid drugs were invented and they were so different from other drugs that we all had to study them. Eggs have enough lecithin in them to counteract the fats in eggs. Many skinny Chinese have high C and hypertension which only seems to affect fat Europeans. It's genetic.

I'm a bit of a cynic when it comes to many medical theories because they are too often tied to the marketing of profitable drugs most of which seem to have horrendous side-effects which make the disease look almost benign.

The latest drug scam is incontinence-controlling drugs aimed at the aging golfing crowd who don't like peeing on the greens. You read the fine print and it says it MAY make you piss yu liver out through your kidneys or something equally nasty.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 14:48:14 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Hadijah
Subject: What if people don't want to let go?
Message:
Some people don't want to let go. Not everyone is of like mind, you know. Each to his own. Nothing wrong with being obsessed and if someone is obsessed with something, nothing anyone says will change their attitude.

Personally, I'm obsessed with something else. I think obsession is a good thing, don't you? Better obsession than a luke-warm life.

.. Dave

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 14:03:16 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Hadijah
Subject: how about helping others to Let Go....
Message:
Not everyone has walked away from blubber like you. Premies read this forum, some wake up to it. This is the purpose of this site. People are here because they want to, and hey blubber reads some of the stuff, so you don't know when you're lucky and have his onesss read your post. You may get a free ride to heaven.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 03:46:15 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: yup..............................nt
Message:
dasga
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:34:30 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Hadijah
Subject: I hear what you are saying, Hadijah
Message:
And you may or may not be interested to know that lots of people have said it before - about this site in particular. So you might get some negative responses - just because it's been said so many times before.

You sound really sincere, and I think what you are saying has its merits. But although many people that post here may seem 'obsessed', the truth is that many people have come to this site, gotten what they needed from the site and the forum, and then been able to let go - finally. You were fortunate in being able to 'let go' at the time when you left - other people have had nagging doubts and bad feelings about leaving M, and need to talk about these, or hear other people's experiences. And some people are just beginning to think about leaving - after 25 years or more.

If this forum was populated only by people who had been here for a long time, and were saying the same thing over and over, I would indeed 'walk'. But there are constantly new people finding this site - and some of them get a lot out of it. If we all walked away, it wouldn't be here for those people to find.

Take care,
Katie H

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:45:52 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: anserw from a tread below
Message:
Hi Tonette,

I could not answer before, cause on weekend I'm free from websites an reading the Forum. My mind needs that rest from all of that stuff. Too much reading on the Forum, somehow makes me feel lonley, because I get too much information and less time to talk with people to digest it all. For example my wife has no acces to a PC, she even is not so interested to handle a PC, but I try to give her all the info I get from the Forum and it's not so easy and somtimes I get tired of talking.
No I don't come from Italy, I'm from good old Germany, I would have liked it to be borne in Italy, but I can't remember that anybody had given me the choise. But anyway I come from Europe.

When I wrote to Timmi, that premies can be good lovers too, so I tried to joke a little, to make her smile, she may have a problem with the fact that her husband is a premie. For me I can say, that most of the premies I've met were sweet and lovebale persons. Out of my perspective, I never saw more attractive women on one place then on programms. And out of the perspective from my wife, the male premies seemed to her more attractive than the men you for example can meet for example at a soccer game.
Most of the premies I've meet, all had some kind of passion for life and for me that is one thing a good lover should have.
I know about the guilttrip with sex in the 70's and still in the 80's and I myself always wondered about M as teacher not understanding this sexproblem in the ashram. Sex was for me a reason not to live in an Ashram even though I was in an Ashram for six weeks and there I was confronted with this sex dillemma. But, I was at least too naiv not to see how easy it would have been to have sex with a sweety housemother in the meditation room. I heard so much storys what happend in the lonley ashram nights. But I haven't experienced it for myself. I saw sexuell- pain during my stay in ashram, but I decided, cause of this reason, that this could not be my lifestyle. So it happend that I've got married before M got married and it was not easy at this time cause we all were pushed in this time to live in an ashram, because only there K could be practised proberly.
But all this does not answer your question. I really think that premies in the old times were speciall peoplé, who even tried to experimented with sex and a lot off other things. So far the concept about M is not touched premies have a good and loving perspective of live ( I hardly know people who recieved K in the 90's). I could watch a serious approach in premies life to be open hearted, but somehow a lot of premies reacted crazy and nearly autistic when it came down to go to the next programm or to do some speciall service. For me personnally it was more or less important to really learn to love and this includes sex of course. Maybe I haven't learnt so much I would have liked to learn but I still hope to have a good time left.
Anyway most of the people on the forum were premies and the potential that is shown here, the still to M devoted ones, have it too.
For me premies and expremies are speciall, I don't say they are the better ones, but they are a part of my life, my history and maybe a part of my future too.
I think, that there are not too many people in our culture who don't have somekind of sexuallproblems. Sometimes it seems easier to get rid of sexuallproblems, when someone agrees to a monasticlifstyle and for me this happend to a lot of us and I blame M for that, that somone who calls himself a teacher (Satguru!!!) and knows that people trust him very deeply, never took care for that. He should have known that people in the ashram suffer cause for sexuall needs.

now I wrote a lot.....but it's a big theme....and I see that, more I try to say .....less I really answer

ciao.....wolfie

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 14:24:16 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: to Tonette from down below (nt)
Message:
sorry
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 09:46:12 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I had Movie Star darshan last night (long post)
Message:
In a thread below Nigel analysed the psychological aspects of darshan. Chuck added his two cents about celebrity darshan and recounted the time he got a contact high from Robin Williams. I was there too but I didn't get the ''shaktipat a la Mork'' because I didn't really know who he was not being a Yank.

That got me to thinking about name recognition and darshan. Before I got K I was living with a friend of mine (who also did not have K) in Golders Green in north London. He came home one day and told me how he had met this girl at the tube station and she had invited him home. He thought it was for sex. When they got to her house, she asked him to wait in the living room and went upstairs. While he sat waiting a little Indian teenager walked in and said Hi and sat down in a chair near the window.

The two of them sat in silence for a while. My friend was not the type to make small talk and neither was he uneasy with the kid because his wife was Indian (like me, they also had to escape South Africa in the sixties because of politics.) The girl came back and threw herself on the floor in front of the kid and kissed his feet. The little Indian kid was Guru Maharaji.

I asked my friend if he had gotten a contact high from the guru and he said no. I pressed further because all my other friends were getting K and I did not like what I had heard about him but could not ignore him. ''Did you feel anything?'' I asked.

''No, what should I have felt?'' he answered.

He did not know that little Rawat was the Lord of the Universe and therefore did not see that. Even Balyouguesswhat himself has said as much when he told the story about talking with his neighbor across the fence. ''He doesn't have darshan. He just sees me as his friendly neighbor,'' Rev Rawat once recounted.

Rev Rawat is the only celebrity whose feet I have ever kissed. I've met others. I catered George Lucas' daughter's birthday in Marin and was tongue-tied when he came into the kitchen to thank me (and pay me.) It was 1980 and Star Wars still held a special place in my heart. I was awed and he was so unpretentious and friendly.

I've had any minor celebrities in the restaurant. Because of my libertarian friends I've had famous political writers and academics. In the opera world I have hosted the family reunion of a famous soprano and fed a host of other singers and musicians. In the culinary world I have entertained many a famous chef come to steal my recipes.

And, because it's a veggie joint, I've had famous animal rights activists, ''sustainable growth proponents'' and also plenty of New Age pundits and swamis. I've also met Governor ''Moonbeam'' Brown and Tom Hayden. The only one from who I got a contact high was the diva. She was the only one whom I admired, that I was in awe of. The others' accomplishments did not impress me.

So, for me, there have to be at least two aspects to darshan: name recognition and admiration. With Rawat I got a real good dose. Wasn't his family name GOD? He might as well have been called Prempal God. And who does not admire GOD?

Tonight in the restaurant, two quite ordinary young women arrived after the usual early Sunday rush. They had a reservation for 8pm. The first two hours had been a conveyor belt operation of feeding families with squealing rug-rats as is usual for Sunday. I had not seen the two women arrive because I was taking a tea break at my desk in the wine cellar and looking at FV on my computer when Andy came down to get some wine.

Andy was hunting so I asked what he was looking for. He answered that he was looking for our most expensive and oldest wine, a Plaisir de Merle cabernet sauvignon from Paarl. He added that he was surprised that two such ordinary young women would order a bottle of wine that cost ten times what one would expect them to buy. I rejoindered that they may be off-duty waiters at a fancy restaurant and had a taste for la dolce vita. They had assured him that price was no object.

Chuck took their dinner order and wondered if they had been in before because one woman's face was familiar. No new customers came after nine and I came up from the cellar to close down. Most of the customers started leaving.

At ten Andy came to me with a credit card and said, ''Isn't this a movie star?'' I took a look and answered, ''Yes, let me go and see.''

I went into the dining room and found myself shouting very loudly: ''Oh my god! Yes it is!'' The movie star and her lady friend were by now the only customers left so I gushed as only a fag can about how happy I was to see her and how much I enjoyed her movies and that I knew that she was a brainy person eventhough some of her parts were not much better than trailer trash and that I was a snob and didn't really like movie people.

She was upset by that so I had to backtrack and use a bit of tactful charm but I soon realized that she was feeling no pain and seemed tickled that I was so tactless. We talked for the next hour about her being a vegan and animal rights activist, joked about sleeping her way to the top, girl-talked about astrology, yoga, Brendan Frasier, Kenneth Branagh, adopting special needs dogs (I have five and she has six) Doris Day, another dog nut (she owns an elegant dog hotel just south of SF in Carmel), and her new boyfriend who is the first one not to mind dog hair in the bed.

I'm not saying her name because she comes up to SF regularly and has promised to send all her pals and become a regular and I need to be able to look her in the face without feeling that I have betrayed her confidence. Then they left and we closed up and came home and talked about it.

Chuck, who had been unimpressed by her before he knew who it was (she was looking pretty funky with no make and dressed in jeans and a sweater and obviously had a bad hair day) now got some movie star darshan as she walked past him to leave and he could hardly look at her. Suddenly, with name recognition, she became a princess, Hollywood royalty.

I thought to myself that I had not gotten celebrity darshan but I had. I realized that I was feeling very alert and full of energy. It could have been because she told me that she could not believe that I was old as I said I was - flattery will do that to me. But there was no getting away from it: she was a celebrity whom I admired.

Rev Rawat did once say, as is pointed out in another thread here somehwere, that darshan worked because we thought it would. Yes, what bigger celebrity can you get than GOD and who more to admire? When I stopped seeing him as god the shaktipat no longer worked.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 23:22:06 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Movie Star Darshan stories continues...
Message:
I've had lots of Movie Star Darshan. I lived a few apartment buildings away from a restaurant called HUGO's (Santa Monica Blvd. & Kings Rd)and had quite a number of my encounters there.

One evening (15 yrs. ago) I walked into Hugo's and requested a window seat. As the waiter sat me down, I noticed that the handsome gentleman sitting at the next window seat was Dick Smothers. I instinctively went over to him and announced that I was happy to have the opportunity to see him and told him that 'I evolved as a result of the Smothers Brothers shows'. He laughed whole heartedly and told me that was the most interesting advance he ever received and invited me to join him for dinner. I accepted and was treated to a little prashad as well.

Funny thing was, one week before that evening I went with the munchies to the restaurant at the end of the night and saw Tommy Smothers there with a young female assistant hamming it up. As I stood talking to the manager abut deserts togo Tommy came up and opened his arms and announced 'It's my birthday' so I gave him a big hug.

I almost got run over by a limosine with Bruce Willis in it. (This story is very similar experience I had with a limosine transporting Maharaji). As I walked in the alley of the Bodie Tree NewAge store I heard a car peeling. I jumped to side and a limosine came to a sudden stop. I thought 'Fuck You idiot' and went with my hands on my hips, stopped in front of the car, leaned over and glared at the chauffeur - my curious eyes glanced into the backseat and caught a childlike smirk - it was Bruce. He looked like a kid with his hands caught in the cookie jar and this made me smile. I went from pissed to blissed. I got out of the way and the limo gave me a little toot.

I have more movie star darshan if you want to hear. Funny posts today...shit you guys give me a laugh.

Movie Star Darshan :}

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 00:41:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Movie Star Darshan stories - more, more
Message:
Sometimes FV sounds like the founding fathers sweating over the constitution and the next its like People magazine.

I want to hear more but only of you also tell us if they gave good shaktipat. Whose shaktipat was the biggest, the best, the nicest etc.

I can't stand Mr Willis (well I don't know him, but his public persona puts me off) and that smirk of his is too much like the one I want so badly to wipe off the Shrub's smug mug. But I would probably get good shaktipat off Bruce because he's sexy in a naughty way bordering on being repulsive. It looks as if he enjoys ''doin' rude'' as the Jamaicans say.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:55:40 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I had Movie Star darshan last night (long post)
Message:
Good analogy of how we can easily get caught up in the subjected reality of other's fame and fortune, (darshan, stardom, celebrity presence)

I had a similiar experience myself recently, I was at a local jam session here recently and I joined a group of musicians on stage for a set. I just walked into the place and the host said grab your instrument and go up now, as a Bass player it is important to work closely with the drummer and set the rythym and groove. I immediately was impressed with the level of this drummers playing even though I did not recognize him.

We were back there yukking it up, high fiveing each other and carrying on as if we were long lost brothers having the absolute best of times.

As I got down off stage one of the local musicians approached me and I said 'Hey are you going to jam with this group they are great' he looked at me apprehensively and said NO WAY, these guys are out of my league, these are the big boys, I couldn't hang with them but YOU did great. I would be afraid to get on stage with the Fabulous Thunderbirds, hearing that I nearly fell off of my feet.

Here came drummer Jimi Bott to thank me only this time knowing who he was, he suddenly was larger than life and what a minute ago was a kinship of musical spirit was now entrenched and corrupted in this notion of celebrity.

I just could not be myself in the same natural way as before and I found myself behaving ackwardly and fumbling for clever words.

This is good example of how we mindfuck ourselves with information and concepts about people who's reputation and accomplishments proceed the reality of who they really are.

Just folks like you and me, unless of course you yourself choose to change the dynamic of the relationship by inserting your concept of awe, stardom, spirituality etc.

I took myself right out of the honest experience and expression I just had prior to and put myself into this inauthentic and subserviant conceptualized version of what I now thought, subjected to awe.

I learned a lot from that encounter

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 05:03:06 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: ****GREAT POST BRIAN***** worth reading!!!
Message:
And I totally agree. It's bullshit.

I grew up in a wealthy town and there were movie stars, business execs and all sorts of people successful in a worldly sense. When I was a child, and maybe still today, Fairfield County in Connecticut was the wealthiest county in the US.

Then I went to work in Beverly Hills when I lived in LA, where I not only saw movie stars but sometimes Rawat out shopping in his motor home. I knew the movie star darshan was unreal, even though it was sometimes a hoot, but didn't see through the Rawat thing.

But what a striking story about the change, once the concept came in of WHO the guy was. I'm sure it would have been hard to be natural if you'd known who the guy was. I know I'd have done the same thing.

Good insights there.

love, f

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 04:04:09 (GMT)
From: Someone who knows
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Drummer in Fab T-Birds is Fran Christina not
Message:
Jimmi Bott. Their original drummer back in the '70s was Mike Buck. In fact since Jimmy Vaughan left the band, Kim Wilson the great harmonica player/vocalist/front man filled the void with the likes of Duke Robillard (ex- Roomfull of Blues guitarist) and Kid Ramos and within the last year has been touring eponymously as the Kim Wilson Blues Band. So no wonder you didn't feel any darshan . . .
(a blues fan)
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 08:36:18 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Someone who knows
Subject: The Drummer in Fab T-Birds is now Fran Christina
Message:
who also blows a mean harmonica (harp) sings great as well and adds good back-up vocals. Richard Innes who came over from the Hollywood Fats Band was also on board as drummer for a while. As you know over the past 25 years there have been many changes and musicians in the T-Birds and Jimmi Bott was the drummer at the time of the incident I recounted here.

Jimmi Bott is currently busy with other projects and occasionaly shows up in the Jim Wallace Band and is producing a CD for his father and Wallace.

Kid Ramos a real rocker on guitar, adds an entirely new dimension to the group, he pushes the edge and takes the band to a level beyond the blues.

The only original T-bird left is Kim Wilson so on the strength of his name and reputation you could easily tour a band. Why not?

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 08:59:39 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: correction/
Message:
It's late and I just proof read my post too late, wallace is the harp player not fran, I somehow got out of sequence with my thoughts and with fran back on board you have two original birds in the band.

I am going to bed, goodnight

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:15:23 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I know what you mean, but isn't it involuntary?...
Message:
Hi Brian.

With the movie star last night, I had discussed the menu with her and her friend, chatted a bit, like I would with any customer. It was only when she went to pay the bill, and we saw her name, that the penny dropped.

Suddenly, I was seeing her differently, and I HATED that. Intelectually, I knew better. She was still the same person I had been talking to earlier. But now I was having this 'darshan' experience from her, similar to what I described about Robin Williams in a post below on Nigel's thread ''Euphoria and the Darshan Rush'', which has just gone into the Inactive Index.

The celebrity Darshan experience seems INVOLUNTARY to me. Why? I don't consider myself a groupie, I don't gush over movie stars, yet I have this involuntary feeling.

When I first came to SF, my first job was a bank Teller. At the branch I worked at, one of the customers was Boss Scaggs. You probably have heard of him Brian, I think he's a famous Jazz musician.

I had heard of the name before, but I had never seen his picture or seen or heard him perform, that I was aware of. So he was not a celebrity to me.

The bank staff would gush over him, and fuss over him, (which he loved of course), but to me he was just this old hippy guy with a pony tail and a nice bank balance. A nice enough guy. But the bank staff would keep saying, ''Don't you KNOW who he IS''? I could feel the energy from THEIR enthusiasm, but the guy himself did nothing for me. No darshan. Because he was not a celebrity to ME.

When I first saw M, it was right after recieveing K, and only three months after first hearing about him. The celebrity darshan I got from him was really quite small. I hadn't seen much of him, and I was more curious than anything else.

Six years later, when I accidently breached his security barrier and ran into him by chance in an elevator lobby, the celebrity darshan experience was much stronger. By then, I had been seeing him on stage and on videos, and listening to him on audio cassetes for years. He was an established celebrity in my mind. If I had attributed god-like, LOTU qualities to him as well, I'm sure my experience would have been much stronger.

I want to know WHY this happens? Interestingly enough, Andy says he got no darshan experience from the movie star last night, it made no difference to him at all. He said he has never had any kind of experinece from meeting a celebrity. Intellectually I agree with him, but on an emotional level, something involuntary seems to happen. Why?

Any thoughts on this, anyone?

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 05:06:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Andy is SO cool! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 04:39:02 (GMT)
From: Someone who knows
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: It's not 'Boss' Skaggs but Bozz Skaggs and he is
Message:
not a jazzer, but more of a roots/pop kinda guy. So, without knowing his True Name how could you possibly be darshanned????
(thought I knew the Boss once tho)
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 00:26:09 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Someone who knows
Subject: Correct Spelling = Good Darshan. Thanks ;) NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 00:08:11 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Pat /Brian /Chuck
Subject: The Illusion of Celebrity
Message:
Great posts guys & way too much food for thought to digest let alone respond to adequately .

I think that meeting a celebrity can blow your social fusebox because you suddenly realise that you know lots of stuff about a perfect stranger . You can't get into a normal conversation & build up a picture you know it already , & you also know that the picture although probably broadly accurate is certainly skewed on various points , but which ones etc . I mean saying something normal like 'where're you from' , you know that already .Mindfuck.

The power celebrities have is ersatz , manufactured by others , that must make THEIR social relations a nightmare .

Some years ago the work I was doing brought me into contact with individuals who have real power , power through their direct decisions to affect the lives of thousands & through their advice to those even more powerful than themselves , millions .

I got a great rush from talking ,
being privy on occasion to 'the real story' & finding out what they thought . A different sort of darshan , possibly like that of the x-rated premies .

Thing is these guys despised all celebrities but were perfectly prepared to use them (& anyone else ) in the interest of getting the job done . Indeed they seemed to think that celebrities were only created for that very purpose .

As to the job that needs doing : keeping the whole magic circus up & running at a time when it's clear that no-one really knows how the whole edifice hangs together . But they know that's always been the case so what's the difference .

Hold onto good manners & the rule of law , know how to eat a peach with a knife & fork , know you're capable of being a total motherfucker if left unrestrained & get on with ruling the hoi-polloi .

Rawat has recently floated into the view of the French wing of the global ruling class as a potential problem : darshan won't wing it there .

He farted in the wrong restaurant :Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 23:47:42 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Very involuntary - for a while
Message:
My take on this stuff is that the response takes about a nano-second. And it is all about making inferences based on filtered data. And these inferences are effectively instantaneous.

For instance - in Australia when the media has a story about aborigines (read people that lived here for 50,000 years before the British colonization) that is marginally negative - they will also put up a picture of a drunken aboriginal street bum - or of a person that certainly looks like one. As soon as the pictre is sighted BOOM - aborigines a drunks, can't look after themselves and need help is the instant inference - though now my inference is 'Useless media outlets purveying negative stereotypes'.

Another example would be in Britian where they had a big public outing of the names and addresses of convicted pedaephiles - and some poor bigger whose name was similar to a convited chap got his house stoned, and got hospitalised. Now the people there were full of hatred immediately for this person and it wasn't even him. Yet the hatred was real.

Another example that has been seen here - someone sees Maharaj ji at a distance and feels real bliss - and when that person comes closer they find it is a servant/brother/someone with a decent tan and build. Instant response.

The 'Ladder of Inference' is a useful lookup with an internet search. Peter Senge popularised it recently.

On the upside this instant inferential process lets us lead an OK life by not having to experience everything as brand new. There are many if not most things that we can accept for what they are and leave it at that. e.g. The light has changed to red. I and others will be stopping. If not an accident will ensue. e.g. I am wanted and liked.

By thinking back through the infernetial process - what conclusions have I based that belief on, what assumptions have I based those conclusions on, what meaning of which data have I chosen to belive, and what other meaning could I come to and what other data could I pay attention to certainly is the cognitive way of unravelling.

Like ingrained stereotyping processes such as racism - they take ages to get rid of. I was recently in our city centre and there was a large group (about 40) of african american service personel from a docked US aircraft-carrier mucking around and singing and dancing in a cirlce. They seemed to be having a great old time. However I noticed that MY responses where along the lines of 'They look dangerous', 'Is this all getting a bit rowdy'. I noticed that they all looked like they could have been crooks in a hollywood movie. I couldn't shake the feeling that as I looked at them I kept imagining them as about to start fights or go on a rampage. Now Australia is very white and at times very racist. Mostly I see few aboriginal people or any people of dark colour. Heaps of paler asian and mid-eastern complexions. So most of my response is based on the highly selvetive and biased US based hollywood style movies. My bet is that those guys felt like they were in 'Hicksville' and I sure felt like a hick.

Cheers for now

Peter Howie

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:47:21 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Learned and projected aura = emporer's clothes /nt
Message:
yowza
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:33:12 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: By The Way, That's Better Than Doggie Darshan
Message:
I've been hanging out with Shania Twain and Bryan Adams lately and I had a smoke with Mick Jagger a few months ago. He was with Sting at the time.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:11:09 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Mick
Message:
Mick talked about two things - owning a studio in North Vancouver and about the time he worked on the song '2000 Light Years From Home'. I'm listening to it now. Here are the lyrics.
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 12:07:10 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: And
Message:
I shook hands with Charles Prince Of Wales when he was in Canada a few months ago. I saw his parents from a distance of twenty five feet and we waved.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:25:42 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: I had Movie Star darshan last night (long post)
Message:
Fuck you, Pat.

By the way, a lady I met at the pub Saturday insisted I confess that I was gay. I finally did, so I guess I've come out of the closet.

Love Ya, Ya Shmuck,

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:18:19 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Rock stars, queens and coming out of the closet
Message:
I don't think I'd get shaktipat from rock stars and royalty as I don't stand in awe of their schtick.

I still haven't figured out when you're joking, Steve. Have you?

If you're serious, I wish you all the best. Coming out of the closet is the best thing you can do for your mental health. Lies and secrets are sure way to end up feeling alienated and isolated from the human race. I got out of the cult because it felt like another closet.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 01:18:46 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Amen, brother, Amen to that !!! BTW - - -
Message:
Can you imagine the real discrimination and inner struggle necessary for getting free of the cult if M was a real hunk, I mean, a drop-dead gorgeous, buff and chiseled, studly specimen of male pulchritude?

That 'test' is one we've been mercifully spared!

LoL,

Carl

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 07:53:59 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Hunks aren't my type. I'm a snob.
Message:
And Rawat just does not have class. If he'd been a decent solid citizen type without all the puffed-up ego, greed and pomposity; if he'd been a sensible, modest, democratic guy with a mind open to learning and growing and being part of the human race instead of some show-off silly, lower class nouveau riche, uneducated piece of Hindu trash from Hardwar - yes then I might still be stuck in the guru trip. I'm glad he was a useless piece of opportunistic detritus. It cured me of the guru mystique.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 11:36:59 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I hear you
Message:
Although I was going for humor with that M-as-a-hunk thought experiment, I do hear you loud and clear concerning what are the truly attractive (or truly revealing) human qualities of the inner character as manifest in actions and attitude.

M shouldn't forget that once having placed himself in the public arena as 'greater than God', he will naturally invite critical curiosity (at the very least) into his decision-making and the nature of his organization, and his 'product'. Not to mention his personal qualities.

So now it's all about ahow business, getting paying butts into seats, pushing expensive trinkets to a manipulated marketplace, and extorting an emotional dependency based on cosmic regret and fear.

This is sad, sick stuff. What next?

Best wishes,
Carl

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 18:36:07 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: A hunk a hunk of burnin love
Message:
He is not hot - not even warm. He is a cold and calculating phony. I think in the first ten years his youthful enthusiasm came over as love but basically he's always been a selfish asshole.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:57:03 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: da Godfather's wife used 2 ask me 2 sing that! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 09:05:46 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How to exploit/from EV newsletter
Message:
Next weekend 'Elan' will not cover this present tour. Instead, by way of a change, it will look back at a wonderful presentation Maharaji gave in Thousand Oaks, California, in March 1995. But a book of excerpts from the entire European tour will be produced and on sale via the Visions website from the end of July, while a 64-page illustrated anniversary book of quotes of Maharaji from every year from 1971 to the present day is also available from Visions, or in the UK from Elan Vital Ltd.
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:27:59 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: You are warmly invited to donate...(not kidding)
Message:
A premie I know who is on the fence, leaning out, told me today that he reeived an e-mail from his local community contact, stating that the new DVD knowledge session would be happening in Miami soon, and that his region of the country was 'warmly invited' to donate as much money as they wanted to help with this 'memorable event'.

Two DVD's happened in the US last year.
And this year, as of the 6 month mark, two DVD's have already happened!
Progress.
Propagation.
Participation.

Go team go!

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:05:26 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Wow, that's incredible
Message:
What excuse will be have for needing the plane?

This is almost like brainwash watch. Here's what I mean.

First you donate money for M to go around the world and spread K, and help him buy planes and stuff. Like I did in the old days.

The last thing I got before I asked them to take me off the list was something asking me to contribute so that people could get satellite broadcasts.

Now people are being asked to contribute to programs where he is not even going to show up! Does Rawat have some sexually transmitted disease that's finally gone to his brain, or what???

--f

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 09:39:28 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: woo. hoo. (cough). yip. pee.(wheeze.) bye.
Message:
i'm underwhelmed
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 07:26:57 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Rawat's token propogation efforts
Message:
It is absolutely essential for Rawat to make these token efforts. Besides being another way to generate cash, he must do this or the few remaining Rawatian cult members might start thinking they are some sort of idiots for wasting all these years. This way he can say he's doing it but there's no synchronicity. Then, he can push his sales seminars. and on and on.....
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 09:51:23 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Rawat's TOKEN propogation efforts
Message:
You said it! And he has to have the KITS propagation seminars to reinforce the illusion. Whatever happened to the Peace Bomb? From ''establishing peace on earth'' in his lifetime it has come to ''offering the possibility of Knowledge.''
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 20:42:34 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I liked his tokin' efforts better
Message:
At least way back in the Light Ages of DLM, M was tokin' and jokin' with the X-Rated PAMs and perhaps was a wee bit closer to being relatable. That behavior would have certainly been easier for me to justify than the Disembodied Infommercial Master (DIM) current PWK's have to deal with now.
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:08:44 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: If his divine scam fails he can do ads as the new
Message:
Marlborough Man
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 10:25:33 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: He's just chumming
Message:
Throwing a little bait out, taking the easily susceptible(these younger people aren't buying the weary and weak shit like we did).....but if he wasn't afraid of press exposure, he could still find thousands.
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:11:51 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This 'peace of mind' thing.I've got a question
Message:
My question, or observation, comes as a result of M trying to answer the premie who said that after one hour of meditation, his mind eats him up in ten minutes.
Of course, M has no real answer, just a platitude, probably because he can't remember the last time HE meditated for an hour.

My personal observation is this:

When I STOPPED trying to find inner peace through the 4 techniques given by M, I truly found inner peace.
It was there all along.
I found that when I stopped trying to reach this mythological gold mine through mining or digging with the 4 techniqes (these are examples that M has given), I was much happier, peaceful, and at ease with myself.
I also felt less removed from the people around me.
It was no longer 'premies' and 'non-premies'.
I was just me.
I felt more comfortable with my body and senses.
There was no place to go (like a video, or service), nothing to do (like meditate) to feel good. I just felt good.
I felt a comfortabe sense of being that I hadn't felt since before I received knowledge, and tried to do something other than just be myself.

Practicing knowledge is a very unnatural thing to do.
Once in awhile you may reach a place where your mind slows down a bit, and then it is quickly lost.

When I stopped trying so hard, I realized that everything is just fine.
It really is.

It's interesting to note that one of the last videos I attended about 2 years ago was from Australia.
A woman in the video asked M if HE practiced for an hour a day, every day.
He couldn't answer her.
He changed the subject and said that he was so tired, he once fell asleep in the shower.
I guess we can safely assume that he doesn't.

When I saw the video at a later date, that Q&A exchange had been carefully deleted.

I also think it was interesting to note that when Premlata received knowledge, the first thing she said on the video was something like 'now I see what the mind is. This is really tough'.
Funny that she mentioned how tough it was, not how beautiful it was.
And that her father can't tell premies that HE practices for an hour each day.

It is almost 2 years now since I exited, and I am still unravelling the story,feeling more myself every day,and giving thanks for the day I decided to question the whole thing.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 18:39:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: Yes.
Message:
Yes La-ex, that's how it's been for me too.

It reminds me of zen-buddhism, all that, 'you don't get it until you stop trying to get it.' stuff.

A bit like junk mail.

Anth, been out in the sun too long today.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 10:01:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: This 'peace of mind' thing is dangerous
Message:
Some people think that Rev Rawat's K is useless but I think it is dangerous. You noticed the same thing as I did in that sermon that Jim posted: the bit about the person's mind eating them up ten minutes after meditation. I know why that happens.

It's because Rawat is selling apples but calling them oranges. The techs are not important but the mystique that he has packaged them with is deluding. And, as you point out, he does not practice them and therefore does not know how to teach them.

Yes, I agree also that there is much more peace of mind to be obtained by just dumping the whole K BS and not trying to attain some weird mysterious goal that is becoming vaguer by the day.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 19:42:24 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: This 'peace of mind' thing is dangerous
Message:
The man receives an email from one of his students. That the premie gets as far as writing to him and complaining about his experience with meditation is surely a serious indication that the premie is disturbed. In his glory and compassion, the man drivels on, continuing to advocate meditation and devotion.

This is a theme that must have been played out over and over and over again, either Maharaji is so stupid it hasn't occurred to him that it is the meditation causing the instability, or he thinks it is worth the price that some poor premies pay, for him to keep on being satgoo.

Hi Pat, I want to call Rawat a loathsome little slug, but I don't want to come across as 'hate filled' do I now, lol!

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 19:52:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: I'll say it for you: Rawat a loathsome little slug
Message:
There, do you feel better now. The fucking creep is confusing thousands and pushing the less stable into insanity as we see so clearly by the ravings of the premies who post here.

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:38:35 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: India
Message:
I posted a short essay last year about cultural differences and how the world is fucked up partly because of cultural mixtures and exports of technology to countries not culturally equipped to deal with them.

As time goes on, I still find cultural differences to be astounding but have a little more insight into what it's all about.

In any case, I know three people from India quite well and have many more acquaintances from that country as there a lot of Punjabis and Fijians and other Indians in Vancouver.

I find Indians to be extremely wise and intelligent but not too interested in new technologies. They are leaders mentally but followers technologically. They also love the English language and can often express a lot in few words.

I also find that it's sometimes easier to be manipulated by someone from a different culture as their status as outsiders to my language and culture gives them more objectivity as to how my head works.

I hope I don't offend anyone with these insights and I think they are a lot more true and fair than what I posted last year. I'm growing as is my understanding. I offer this in the continued hope that we can all gain insight into how we were hoodwinked by the Haha.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:26:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Superficial, superstitious, pompous and wrong
Message:
Hamster report on ELK:

24 June 2001

'This is all I have ever done: tell people that there is something real in this fake world.' This is how Maharaji described his life's work on the opening night of the Rome event.Is that really ALL you've ever done? Your brother teaches 'Knowledge' too. Indeed, he does so a lot more like your father did. You know, the one you claim was your master? Yeah, Satpal's all over that shit. So tell me, is all of that 'fake' too? He's talking about the very same thing you are. Fake or real? Why?

The elegant setting of Rome's Cavalieri Hilton was a world apart from last weekend's Anniversary Celebration in the bleak drabness of Nottingham's National Ice Centre. England's cold, windy days had been replaced with bright Italian sunshine.

But Maharaji was as ever teaching us in his own inimitable way about how to approach life.

Rome was actually the first western city he visited. En route for London 30 years ago, his Qantas flight touched down in the Eternal City before heading to his destination, London.

What is so remarkable about him as that although he says this is all he has ever done, he manages to approach the subject of Knowledge in a ever expanding myriad of illuminating ways.If Maharaji doesn't sound like a cult leader, you sure as hell sound like a cult member, whoever you are. Just can't quite find the words to say how special he is, can you? Naw, I didn't think so. It's hard to praise someone as perfect as He is, I'd imagine. Why, his every glance is so full of magic. Yet, how could anyone but a fellow cult member ever really get it? Tough huh?

Tonight he started on a theme, which reflected the changes of the last 30 years rather than the changeless, although both were intertwined. He said he had received an email from someone who told him that ten minutes after 'I have practised I am all over the place.'

He acknowledged how easily this can happen and added: 'I started to think that it is a question of recognition. If I recognise what is real then maybe I can plot a course - take the necessary steps - to make sure I don't get lost.' Oh no! The worst thing that can happen here is beginning to take place. The Hamster has found another word to destroy! This time it's 'recognition'. Forget you ever thought you knew that word. It's time for the new age hindu love god rubber babble dance.

Problems begin because people believe that the beautiful life they have been given can be enhanced. He likened this effect to a piece of furniture which had been covered with layer upon layer of paint, which all have to be removed before the exquisite nature of the wood is revealed.

'We are very good with conceptual realisation; we are very good with conceptual recognition... It is so easy for people to create what they want to create and then to start believing it. That is conceptual realisation.

'Do we recognise what it is to be alive or do we only recognise what it is convenient to realise and recognise?'

But no matter what, he explained: 'Magic, divinity, grace is all the while coming and touching us' again and again. Well that's a relief! You mean I don't have to wrap my mind around that bullshit you just uttered about 'conceptual realization', 'conceptual recognition'? You mean the magic, grace and, yes, divinity -- that's like in 'God' or something, isn't it? -- is even now, as you speak, touching me? You mean that God himself is touching me while you speak? Okayyyyyyyyyy, I get it. Wow! Cool, huh? Oh my god! This is like, wow, this is like too fucking much! Yeah, I can feel it alright. Just keep talking a bit. I think I've got it!

'Your existence is taking shape every day. You know about your mortality, yet you continue to think you are immortal.'

Wow, heavYYYYYYYY! You went straight from feel-good magic to the fact that I'm gonna die and, despite your loving efforts over the years, that simply hasn't sunk in yet. Gulp!

Because of this he stressed that it was important that we recognise the opportunity that exists today - not tomorrow.

He then delivered two reality checks: first that the future knows nothing about us and secondly that the past has already forgotten about us. We might know of the past and imagine the future, but they do not acknowledge us.I love the way you anthropomorphize everything and its mother, Master. Why don't you talk about the fact that the hall itself will forget us or, at the very least, play hard to get. And fuck that past, huh? After all we did for it, it never calls, never writes. Yeah, you're right, it's just you and me, Maharaji. Who else can I trust when you put it all so clearly like this? Goddam fucking past, turning it's back like that!

'Precariously, you walk on a thin rope. There is not much elbow room and not much room for error,' he said. Oh no! What can I do? Where can I go? The past has forgotten me and the future won't take my calls! And here I stand ... I can barely move my elbows!

THE RECOGNITION OF BREATH
But he continued by adding that it should be 'very easy for the living to recognise the importance of breath. You would turn blue without it... nothing would function. And you would think that this would be a simple recognition, but all the concepts and ideas come in between.It IS a simple recognition. It's what's called a trite recognition, you idiot! But fuck you if you think I'm going to start worshipping my involuntary muscles. What about my heart? Keeps pumping, pumping, pumping. It's enough to make me cry out in bliss and recognition -- naw, that won't work. Could you imagine going to buy something in the store, the clerk takes your credit card but, instead of running it, she just stands there going off about how neat it is that her heart is pumping? 'Here, feel it,' she grabs your hand and puts it between her breasts. She's that eighty-five year old little Chinese woman whose family runs the corner grocery. You want to get back home, you're in the middle of cooking dinner. 'Nice,' you say 'Sure is beating away there. Mine too.' You're just trying to get away but that doesn't work.

'Oh really? Let me feel,' she says. Meanwhile, there are three people behind you trying to buy their stuff and get out of there.

No, bodily functions, involuntary muscles and all that -- hey, don't get me wrong. They're great. But fuck you if you think I'm going to worship them.

'And then there is the simple way of Knowledge with no pretenses, no discussions. You either welcome it into you life or you don't...

'Knowledge makes no statement about what we must do...'

He then embarked on a lovely analogy comparing the practice of Knowledge to a bee gathering nectar from flowers.

'How much nectar can one tiny little bee take?' he asked.
Good point, guru. I can see where premies like nagual rain get their deep wisdom now. Took me a moment but it's pretty clear now. You're a fucking idiot is what's clear.

BEE HERE NOW
Then, back to the email he received - 'If you can keep your head straight for 10 minutes that's good. But go for another second, that's what the bee does.'

'In this life we have to become like the bees, every breath we take is like a flower that it is opening up' to give us nectar.

'When you recognise this potential, can you tell me that this is not enlightenment, that this is not 100 per cent liberation, that it is not salvation? Can you tell me that this isn't real freedom?'HOLD ON THERE! YOU'RE ASKING US? You're supposed to be the guru and now you're asking US? Isn't that a bit like that old Moody Blues song where the guy goes to the top of the mountain and sees the guru who tells him that 'Life is like a beanstock, isn't it?' I'm sorry, I thought YOU knew where this was all going? And now you're asking us?

Well, if you must know, I'd say no. Appreciating your each and every breath like a village idiot is not my idea of a good time and it sure isn't enlightenment. Forget about '100 per cent liberation' or 'salvation'. You've got to be kidding. Tell me you're kidding, guru. You're kidding, right?

Doubt, he explained, was something we have always done. 'You are expert doubters.'

'But when,' he asked, 'are you going to forget the doubts and accept this beautiful, gorgeous reality.' Translate: your doubts are unanswerable. Therefore, can we do something else now? Please?

There is a 'gross miscommunication' - we know how to want, but we don't know what we want. What kind of whack rubber talk is that? The only 'gross communication' here is what you're doing to the english language, fella.

He said he would make no apology for declaring that until we start admiring what is real and not everything else, we would understand nothing. Hey, that's pretty extreme, big guy! Not to mention downright mean and insulting. You tlak to all your cule members this way? I'm surprised they don't just up and walk out on you. What's that? They do? Hm, well, serves you right. Quit whining and learn how to get along better with people. Until you do, you'll understand nothing.

Those who want to know how to gather the beauty of this breath in their lives, should come to the master with a heart that is real, a heart that is pure, he explained. They should not be driven by curiosity or doubt. Ah yes, the classic cult choice: either you're sincere or you've got questions. Cn you imagine Maharaji as a car salesman? Not like this, I can't.

The trouble is 'so much of what you do is to overcome doubt, and the doubt keeps growing. So come to the world of certainty...'The doubt keeps growing ... hm, wonder why, huh? Could it be because you don't make any sense and now, for the first time, you've finally told us that not only do you not really know what enlightenment is but, even worse, you think it's nothing but going ga ga over your breath? Yeah, the doubt keeps growing. The certainty you're offering is just a futile plan to avoid dealing with it.

IN STORMY WEATHER
'We pretend that we know that which we don't know,' he advised. And then gave the example of being in a little boat when a storm comes. The storm makes the water rough, so it is not the boat itself that creates the sensation of roughness.

'You have to find the place where the water is not rough. Take the boat that is tossing you around, take it into calm waters.

'Don't blame the boat, when it is poor navigation.'Yawn! ....yawn .....sorry, I've heard this....yawn, shake ... maybe go outside to stretch my legs .. no, I guess that's not on, is it? Sneak glance at watch, think about flight home ...

Maharaji then explained what real rather than conceptual recognition is. He told the story of Krishna giving Arjuna Knowledge in the Bhagavad Gita, and how Arjuna's heart was so deeply touched. He said to Krishna: 'Forgive me. I had no idea who you were...'

'The day that I can turn to myself and I say that I forgive myself for not realising what I have been given, when I have recognised Knowledge in that way, then doubt will go,' Maharaji concluded.You asshole! You come THIS FUCKING CLOSE to blaming everyone for not recognizing you're whatever it was Arjuna didn't recognize Krishna was -- God, of course. Like, duh! -- and yet you say, at the same time, that we fostered and perpetuated the myth that are divine. Here, you're pretty well coming right out and saying it but no, pity the poor premie who dots the 'i' or finishes the sentence. Creep!

'Then you'll be bad news for doubt. Confusion will stay as far away from you as it can.'

He had one other statement for which he said he would make no apology: 'If your heart is not content, you will never be at peace.' Wow! That's a real show-stopper! Good thing I DIDN'T sneak out for that fresh air. Where'd you learn to say such things? This is like a miracle or something! That was VERY, VERY impressive, guru. Too fucking much the way you thought that up.

The mind and the heart beat different drums. If you try to dance to both a the same time you will look like an idiot. Funny, you should say that because, quite frankly, I agree. Tell that to Pia, though, will you?

'Dance with no reservation to the beat of the drum of the heart. Be fulfilled every single day. First listen to the beat, then don't be shy, feel the gratitude, feel the elation. When the rhythm is in you, the rhythm has penetrated you. It is swinging in you and you are swinging with it.'

'This would make a long email,' he said with a smile, reminding us of the ten minute dilemma. Hey, that's novel! Maharaji usually rambles on so aimlessly, it's kind of like a trick when he actually returns that rare occasion to the 'point' he started making way back when. Of course, normal people are expected to do that whenver they talk to thousands of people sitting in rapt attention for hours on end. But gurus and other cult leaders just meander like motherfuckers. So this, then, was a real treat. Must have shocked everyone.

INCREDIBLE MISUNDERSTANDING
He likened the predicament of us sitting around 'watching the world go round' to the days when people thought that the sun revolved around the earth. That he said was an 'incredible misunderstanding', because 'the world is watching you go by...'More inane anthropomorphizing. So now it's the world that's laughing at us.

'The consciousness that you have, use it to be conscious of this existence... because it brings a joy unparalleled.'

The European events had been beautiful. He mentioned how many new people had come in Lisbon and Barcelona. And Paris? How as that, guru ji? Hm?

Coming together to make a difference is not an issue, he said. There is always a demand for Knowledge.

'Where we fall short is coming together to make an effort... People who have Knowledge are too smart... Everyone goes off into a discussion... But the objective of making Knowledge available to those who want it is greater than the sum of your differences.WARNING: YOU MAY BE TOO SMART TO UNDERSTAND THIS SENTENCE If you know that then everything is possible. If you understand that, anything is possible.' Yes, I agree. If you can understand that particular sentence, then surely anything is possible. Let's see now: 'The objective of making Knowledge available to those who want it is greater than the sum of your differences'. Sorry, I give up. Guess I'm too smart or something.

'Knowledge is like a flower, it offers a possibility to a little bee. There is no contract. Is there a name written on a flower?Okay, enough already! You're not going to anthropomorphize the poor little flowers and bees too, are you? That's harsh, man! It is a possibility not a contract. It should be made possible for anyone who wants it. If you don't want it, that is not an issue.' What if I used to follow you and think you lied about everything and thus took advantage me and my friends for years? Is THAT an issue? Yeah, that's what I thought.

'The breeze will gladly come through your little window,' he said, explaining that the breeze is actually the result of the huge forces of nature - the rotation of the planet, the pull of the ocean. 'It is nothing trivial.'OH NO!!!!!NOW IT'S THE BREEZE! LISTEN, YOU IDIOT, THE BREEZE IS NOT GLADLYDOING ANYTHING! Stop that!

'All you have to do is open your little window. That's a pretty good deal.

'I too, in my life, want to open that window, because I too want the beautiful breeze blowing to take away all that is stale, and to bring the new fragrance of fresh air.'

He finished by offering the chance to help make the possibilities happen - 'not in philosophies but in unity'.Rubber talk!

'This has nothing to do with Italy; it is about the world.'

Then it was over, unbelievably he had talked for just over 70 minutes...Did you come? Can't get enough of this shit, can you?

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:35:46 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Hmm, By golly, I 'recognise' those feelings.
Message:
Does M 'recognise' the full implications of what he's saying, here?

More important do long-term PWKs realise the implications ?

If M’s 70 minutes of instruction add up to a handful of beans, it is to make one point only:

…that the hour’s meditation you completed just ten minutes ago, premie ji, is in the past, and of no bloody use to you, now. The past has washed its hands of you and you are now up shit creek without a paddle, because your mind has come back in and would ere yet rob you of that recognition. (I thought ‘clarity’ was the new ‘realisation’. Seems like ‘recognition’ is now conceptual substitute of the month.)

…that your twenty-seven years’ devotional satsang, service and meditation have no accumulative effect whatsoever, because, in the present moment, you have lost that focus and the best you can hope to do is hang in there for a second or two longer and try to recognise you are breathing. (Think of yourself as a lovely little bee trying to get a drop more nectar…. There. Did that work?)

…all those trans-world trips you scrimped and saved for last year to be at the Master’s feet? Those automatic credit-card transactions…? - All in the past, and of no further use to man, dog or guru! You might as well have been an ex-premie for all the blessings your former devotions confer upon the here and now.

I deeply sympathise with Humpty’s email correspondent. I remember only too well those ten-minutes-after-meditation sensations, battling to stop the real world and its necessary scripts and thought processes from swamping out my lovingly-nurtured inner-glow - how fragile that left you feeling; how unable to function as either normal human being OR semi-realised soul. As regular life goes on around you, you become this helplessly introspective shadow on the wall, constantly monitoring the imaginary conflict between your inner workings of ‘mind’ and ‘heart’. Ugly, ugly, ugly…

(BTW: Another fine post, Jim.)

- Nige

the Unrecognised Soul

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:03:51 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Brilliant! you did it again Jim
Message:
You dissected this shit down to the smallest denominator and once again so aptly exposed the dysfunctional premise that holds together this crappy racket that Rotgut runs.

Its the carrot at the end of the stick trick revisited only worse. Many of the unsuspecting souls whom have placed all of their confidence and vision in this charlatan under the guise of finding truth may spend an entire life meandering right along the false path and words of this spiritual conman. Sorry disillusioned unquestioning robots that they choose to be.

Was it John Lennon who said 'you can get it wrong and still believe that its all right'? How true it is when it comes to the brainwashing one gets when they buy in to this shit cult. Look once, Its the Lord, look again no, I am a servant, wait a minute, no I am the master. You are not in a cult, but you can kiss my feet and tithe me your money anyway. This is not a religion, but oh by the way, it is divine and spiritual; wink wink, and the word religion is actually derived from realization, and realizing this knowledge is the ultimate purpose of this life, wink wink, but no this is not a religion. Rubber talk......

Who in the fuck can continually hide behind the facade, hypocrisy and falsehoods continually perpetrated by Rotgut and the cult and never stop to wonder what is wrong with this picture?

Once one steps into the rubber room with blubber at the controls, all that rubber talk and logic, although wrong suddenly seems right. Just buying into another fucking concept, Pinheads can't get enough of this Shit.

You are so right Jim, this is wrong, and it can't be worked out any other way. There is no room for negotiation when it comes to opening this thing up and exposing the facts about the snowjob scam that Rotgut has been getting away with all of these years.

Thanks for the enlightenment

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:37:57 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Brilliant! you did it again Jim
Message:
Was it John Lennon who said 'you can get it wrong and still believe that its all right'?

No, it was Paul MacCartney, but we get your point...;)

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:15:25 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Knowledge = paint stripper?
Message:
Nice job of carrying on a 'conversation with M' Jim - you are on a roll dude. Though you didn't pounce on it, I especially liked the way M suggests that Knowledge is some sort of cosmic paint stripper. Just put a bit on a hanky, now breathe in, hold it, now breathe out . . . aaahhhhh. . . and all those nagging fake world doubts are gone away.
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:43:14 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: THAT SUBJECT HEADER SUMS UP YOUR POST PERFECTLY!
Message:

TO THE LETTER!

Come on Jimbo, you know it makes no sense whatsoever. Have some respect for your readers. And stop wasting your time.

best,
MK

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:32:32 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Are you cerise?----------nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:27:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Serious question, MK.
Message:
Actually, I thought Jim's post was funny (I can remember thinking things like that 'in my mind' when listening to M.) But what really floored me was the NON-content and rambling nature of the quoted portions of Maharaji's discourse. (I am assuming they quoted the highlights, too - can't imagine what the whole talk was like.)

MK, Do you get anything out of hearing these talks by M ? THey seem to me to be a mixed up jumble of analogies and truisms. I guess he does remind people that 'what they are looking for is within them', as Jerry said, but I can't imagine sitting through 70 minutes of this kind of verbiage.

Seriously, I am interested to hear what you have to say.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:33:09 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Serious answer KH.
Message:
You're right Katie, Jim's post was clever and very funny. I was being a petulant old lady. Didn't think the caps would stand out like that in the subject box. I wasn't shouting but laughing and I think Jim was smart enough to notice. He answered in a spirit of humour and with a good question.

Talking of subject headers, I don't know how to make letters 'bold' on this site rather than caps. How does one do this?

Do I get anything out of M's talks? Well, you know you have to be there to grok the whole deal of an event with M, more happens without the words than with. Watching videos, like you and Jim said, mr mind's bored shitless and picks out all the weak spots and 'gets' M every now and then when he does a fast u turn or they do a crap edit. Sometimes it's astonishing, he'll begin a story, have you spellbound, then zoom off in another direction, and you sit there going 'hey wait man!'
But I go through the same mental gymnastics watching TV.
With M I feel an affection and sometimes he's incredibly funny and frank. Other times I sit there arguing with him but mostly find he's a good hour of fun. Each event is different in it's own little way. I generally leave the programs feeling closer to myself in a private sense and warm publicly.
best,
MK

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 13:54:58 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Thanks, MK
Message:
To each his own, I guess. I really had trouble listening to Maharaji even when I was a premie (I am more visual than auditory - maybe taking notes would have helped - snicker!) I used to just meditate and figure I was getting the 'benefit' even if I couldn't listen to him. In fact, when I watched some videos a year or so ago, I found myself meditating while he was speaking - guess it's an automatic trigger now.

You're correct that most of the videos are boring - I really do not see how people can watch them.

Anyway, thanks for the honest answer.
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:02:04 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: MK
Subject: Bold question
Message:
Talking of subject headers, I don't know how to make letters 'bold' on this site rather than caps. How does one do this?

Check out the link to Forum Help. It's explained there.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 14:10:45 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Hint about using HTML on the forum
Message:
Unless you have absolute confidence in your ability to close your HTML, PREVIEW your posts. It really helps :) - and you don't have to yell for the FA to 'fix' your post.
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:13:43 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thank you *
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:58:03 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Stop shouting and explain, please, MK...
Message:
'..superstitious and wrong'?

Please clarify, MK.

Jim.. ('Jimbo', is it? - sounds like you two go way back?) ..knows WHAT makes sense?

You certainly don't.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 16:47:28 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: maybe Jim was the bloody Pharoah in Egypt I slaved
Message:
for all those long desert days and nights! yes, we go back a long way alright. He was a hard and brutal man...but..and..also...

I was being a goof Nigel and I think Jim took me on face value.
That's what's fun about cyberspace. It doesan't have to be a struggle. I explained a bit to Katie above.
stay well,
MK

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:49:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Bonus question for you, MK
Message:
Seeing as you seem to need bite-size posts, here's a simple question for you. Maharaji also said this last week:

You come into the world empty-handed, and you were going to leave empty-handed, but I am going to give you a way so that you don't have to leave empty-handed.

He's recently said that he doesn't know anything about reincarnation, what happens after you die, etc. So tell me, MK, what the fuck is he talking about?

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:00:59 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's a good one, and I agree...
Message:
That's better.
I don't like it when the premier poster of FV doesn't kick butt or make sense.

You're right Jim, and you've got me there. Of all the stuff M says, I still haven't got that one! I presume he means we peacefully merge with the infinite bliss never to be troubled by anything again. From people who've had near death experiences that's what it seems to be like.

Yea, but how that translates to NOT LEAVING EMPTY HANDED is beyond my grasp. What's your take on it?

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:05:04 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Weird
Message:
MK,

It seems to me that the modern premie cares only about one thing Maharaji says:

'What you are looking for is within you.' (Remember when he said within-inside? He doesn't say that anymore, does he? Maybe nagual rain should take note. Maharaji does seem to care about proper grammar).

Right? After that, it doesn't seem to matter what Maharaji says. It's just his philosophy and you just tolerantly let him ramble on. Seems to be a strange relationship. Why bother even listening to anything Maharaji says if the only thing that matters is that one sentence? How many times during the course of a discourse does he actually say that, and is that the only thing you hear him say, and just poo-poo the rest? As I said, seems very strange.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 17:09:01 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A 'modern' premie? Oh, I hope...
Message:
Yes Jerry, he's rambled on about the same thing for thirty years, it's really quite astonishing. It surprises me that I can get anything original from him, it really does. I remember he once said that when he talks he likes to direct it at new people, he wants to introduce something. He always seems to be talking to new people, with the odd nod in the oldies direction. We used to want his attention and joked about having a 'veterens only' event where he could 'really let go' and we could laugh about the old days. Guess Amaroo is the closest to that. It was good fun actually.

The 'modern' premie? Oh, I hope I don't run into that.
best,
MK

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:01:32 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: So is Maharaji God?
Message:
Or the superior power in person?

Or someone has has come with more powers than ever before?

Or greater than God?

Please, MK, give us your answers to these questions.

A warning, though. This will cause conflict between what you believe and what you believe your master wants you to say.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 17:55:09 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes
Message:
and so are you and so is my cat.

Or the superior power in person?

Yes and so are you and I.

Someone who has come with more powers than ever before?

Yes and so have you and I.

Or greater than God?

It's a figure of speech meaning more 'significant' right?

Here's my little essay, I've tried to express it if it was an exam question, a study on the subject. It is.

When I did heroin we used to fit each other up sometimes, as an act of love, bonding. And when the 'giver' gently pulled the empty siringe out of your arm you'd look at them with this heavy, droopy, blissed out...'thanks man!' It was an amazing buzz, a sacred desperate connecting. At that point.....
(she said ernestly and with much openness)
who was the greater, the 'god' heroin coursing through my veins or my friend for giving it to me? I'd always go for the person and make them the issue. The buzz of the oozy love we shared was the deal for me. So when the heroin ran out, I didn't mind too much, we just moved on. I was bloody glad to have Knowledge through that period though and enjoyed the meditational flavour of the drug, it made so much sense to just fucking go inside and chill out. That's what the smack was, heaven for twenty minutes. I got addicted to K then I think.

Not a very good analogy of anything eh? (please don't show it to Jim, he'll put it through the shredder, grind it gently in the mortar and pestle and spread it on toast for his breakfsat)
True story though, astonishing memory actually, we had no idea what we were playing with at the time, early 70's, a steady diet of Tequila and smack, woa! Aren't the young brave, I watch my kids step close to the edges sometimes and I go woa...
Discovery has to happen though so on they go. I advise them to be very careful about source, regularity and quantity, they seem to understand it better than our mob did.
:::

Please, MK, give us your answers to these questions.
A warning, though. This will cause conflict between what you believe and what you believe your master wants you to say.
John.

No conflict. I no longer say what I think my master wants me to say. I definitely did attempt that kind of self abbregation a few times in the early days. My personality was too stubborn to be contained though so I always raved my own stuff anyway. Master or no master, we can't help but grow up a bit no matter what.

warms,
MK

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 23:18:32 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: MK
Subject: My cat too...
Message:
... is God. She has her own web page all about it. I'm not sure how good a Master she is though. Lately, she seems to be concentrating her powers on creating a gopher death-cult.

I understand all that hindu stuff about God being in everything and everyone, I've always liked it, and still do. I know it's not scientific, so I never talk about it like it's a fact, but it's more like poetry to me, I see it as a poetical way of looking at something I can't explain. Poetry is about feelings, so it fits for me.

I've heard premies express such sentiments before, about us all being manifistations of God or the Divine. I've heard M say it once, in twenty years. He seems to be teaching that the Master is a ''special'' manifistation of God, who should not be questioned.

I always liked the idea of having M. as a teacher, but the Master trip is too much for me. As time went on, and he started to bring the devotional stuff back, I felt he was pulling a bait-and switch on me. That's why it bugs me when the old timer premies keep talking about M as a teacher. I've heard M say several times how he despises being called a teacher or an inspirational speaker. Yet he presents himself to aspirants as a teacher, and the premies go along with that.

If he would just say what he means, and mean what he says, he would have many of the problems he faces now.

I've enjoyed many of your posts, though I don't know exactly where you are comming from, regaring the Master. It's not like I have to pin you down on the issue. I still enjoy meditation, even though it's regarded as riduculous to a lot of people here. Fortunately we don't all have to agree about everything. I've even enjoyed some of the arguments against meditation. It's not like I can argue with a single word that has been said about it. I understand the way people see it, and don't feel compelled to try to make anyone ''wrong'' about it, because they aren't. I just don't think I'm wrong for enjoying breath-watching, either.

I think I really wanted Yoga rather than a Master, though. The lies, the secrecy, the Idolization of M and the paranoia that surrounds him, are way more than I bargined for. I was one of those K-Lite people who got hooked on the simplicity. It's much simpler without the religion of Master worship. I prefer to feel nice without a lot of strings or baggage. My cat or anyone else can call themselves a Master if they want, but I won't be kissing their feet.

Best Regards,

- Chuck

Who tried foot kissing, and didn't like it.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 05:21:55 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: My cat too...but not my neighbour!
Message:
Yes, I agree Chuck, teacher, master, guru, god. Rubbish in my book, master's ok I guess, it's an association thing, I loved my geography master at school so that word is acceptable to me.
I was scared of the paranoia around the premies close to him when I was young. Whenever he walked past with the serious blokes in suits a voice in my head said 'fucking businessmen' but I ended up with a big smile on my face and felt stoned. I've NEVER understood it. Once I was talking to him, inches away from his face, he was being very gentle and kind to me, but in a stray microsecond I thought..'fake' but then walked away and had such a lovely day. I put it down to a little ego reaction on my part.
When the humantitarian leader crap started up I thought 'what a lot of shyte'. I truly believe (from gossip) that M is much more maleable than we are led to think. He's really open to ideas on how to 'spread K better' and will try almost anything it seems. There again, as we all know, he's the big bossyboots as well, a hard taskmaster and an arrogant tyrant at times. I don't think he's ever cared what observers think. I was relieved when I found out he wasn't MR Perfect - it never gelled - me the fucked up confused devotee and him so above it all in perfect bliss and clarity - bullshit. I wanted someone who'd been where I had. I forgive him his youthful exuberence the same way I forgive my partner for being much less perfect than I first thought! I think we all kind of learn and grow together, leave our glowing expectations behind. Talking of partners, are you Pat's? (sorry, n.o.m.b) if you are I can see how you'd enjoy life, that restaurant sounds like a really stimulating scene, I read Pat's excellent account of 'movie star darshan'. He is one funny dude you've got there - I like that you both have a capacity to be open and giving. When we lose that I think we're done here on earth.
stay well Chuck,
MK
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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:49:12 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Rawat claims to be Super Duper
Message:
'... master, guru, god. Rubbish in my book, master's ok I guess, it's an association thing, I loved my geography master at school so that word is acceptable to me.'

Which one is it, is 'master' rubbish or ok? When Rawat says 'the Master', he's not using in in the sense of a teacher as in 'geography master' meaning 'geography teacher'. You know that.

When Rawat claims to be God-in-a-bod (yes, he still does), he doesn't mean in the sense of everyone being a manifestation of God. You know that.

You don't go up to just anyone and start singing a devotional song to them, do you?

Rawat said either 'You're not God' or 'You're not the Knowledge'. He said that you could 'realize Knowledge' but you still wouldn't be like him. So he's claiming to be even more than a fully-realized soul. Given his words and behavior, it certainly doesn't appear that he is even partially realized (in a more down-to-earth sense). He's not even all that sane.

I assess him based on his words and behavior, not based on his claims about himself. That's a much more reasonable approach.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 15:28:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: What?
Message:
I truly believe (from gossip) that M is much more maleable than we are led to think. He's really open to ideas on how to 'spread K better' and will try almost anything it seems.

There is absolutely no evidence that this is so.

There is, on the other hand, lots and lots of evidence that m refuses to communicate with anyone outside of his very, small tightly-controlled world. Are you saying that you think he's got a few, select 'advisors' who he listens to? And that he'll be wanting to do 'x' but they'll talk him out of it? Indeed, that it's easy for them to do so, him being so 'malleable' and all? Are you dreaming?

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 16:39:42 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What? Where, Why, When, and with whom?
Message:
The evidence is not available to you Jim, you mean?

No sir,
M doesn't have advisors my good man, he strips down to his kurta, hold the lotus position for a minute then disolves into the infinte eternal energy of God. There he gets given the plans to overun the world. Seven hours later when he comes out of gurumahasamahdi he barks immediate and perfect orders to his reiltroops. And his cunning plan spreads to ever further shores.

I have 'evidence' (are you serious???!!!) which lends me to understand that M's a real soft touch actually.

You certainly aren't today Jim!
MK

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:53:20 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Don't you have to have a body to have hands?
Message:
and when you do leave your body, how are you going to carry anything with no hands?

Here again the logic escapes me MK ..... unless of course we wrap this concept up in rubber, bounce it off the blubber, then we can almost certainly create a magic solution.

Shit damn, when you have the Creator, Operator, Destroyer on the job, anything is possible !

Funny how this thing works that way (by the grace of blubber) when all else fails

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:34:49 (GMT)
From: bill-My reccomedation to
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: any ex with a program near them.
Message:
Print up a one page, front and back, report on the ex case,
Dettmers info ect... and ask for funds from us here, and print
as many as needed by your area, and have Christians hand them out
to the premies at the events.
For those in the USA, the PromiseKeepers.com website folks will
provide you with names in your area to contact. They will come
and hand the stuff out for you.

Those in other countries can mention here that they want
help contacting leaflet handout people in thier area. You will get that help.

rawat is merciless in his chokehold on those remaining cult
victims. If you are held back by not wanting to be the front line
person, no problem, the leaflet handout people are available
locally. Do your fellow man a favor, free them from the cult.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:51:40 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: bill-My reccomedation to
Subject: any ex with a program near them....For sure?
Message:
Have the Promise Keepers handed out anti-cult materials before?
Perhaps they should be contacted about M's family business activities and asked if they will help in a particular city on a particular date.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 02:37:00 (GMT)
From: bill-Yes they will and I
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: volunteer to be the contact person...nt
Message:
adfdg
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 14:44:21 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: bill-Yes they will and I
Subject: Bill - out of the frying pan and into the fire?
Message:
I really don't want to forge an association with the Promise Keepers (not that they would listen to anything I said in the first place!)

Don't you think their ideas about marriage are a bit strange?

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:07:57 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Superficial, superstitious, pompous and wrong
Message:
Problems begin because people believe that the beautiful life they have been given can be enhanced. He likened this effect to a piece of furniture which had been covered with layer upon layer of paint, which all have to be removed before the exquisite nature of the wood is revealed.

I haven't finished reading your good post yet but this got my goat. The paint in this analogy would be what? Our thoughts? Or our erroneous thoughts? Either way this type of thinking is a dead end street to nowhere.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:08:56 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Paint
Message:
Problems begin because people believe that the beautiful life they have been given can be enhanced. He likened this effect to a piece of furniture which had been covered with layer upon layer of paint, which all have to be removed before the exquisite nature of the wood is revealed.

O.K., if you follow this analogy of paint covering beautiful mahogany furniture, which indeed happened to me once when I discovered that a beautiful hutch that my girlfriend was given was mahogany covered with black paint, how would you categorize Haharatji?

A. The beautiful piece of mahogany furniture.
B. The black paint.
C. The paint remover.
D. The paint removing tool.

Here's my analyis.

A. I don't think so.
B. Yeah, like, I think so, duh.
C. No.
D. No.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:12:34 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: a post from bob from below
Message:
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Nottingham Mole
Subject: Sincere?
Message:
As long as we are human we are capable of being sincere, at least in small areas of our personality.
However I see more displays of sincerity in manipulative and abusive people than in 'good'people. (they don't appear sincere, just natural) Se how convinced a violent criminal can be about the valid excuse for his crime. The word love is used a lot in abusive relations. The point is that when people fool themselves, their emotions are starting to lead their own life and get a sentimental and impulsive caracter.
When rawat seems concerned that people don't like him, and he appears to be wronged, yes he is sincere-in that part of himself which is emotional. Don't pity him too much. he himself has built the walls of deceptions and lies within his personality, just like many criminals do, with the same purpose: to be able to look in the mirror and still have all the benefits of exploiting people.
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 18:17:16 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Autobiography Of A Yogi
Message:
When I first visited an ashram in May 1972 every ashram premie had a copy of 'Autobiography Of A Yogi' by Paramhansa Yogananda. Mahatma Krishnasukanand was in Montreal at the time and I heard him quote scriptures but never that particular book, nor have I heard anybody mention the book in satsang.

I read the book around that time and the only thing I remember is that Yogananda encountered a master who was technically deceased but whose spirit still lived in the mountains somewhere.

I actually remember that I enjoyed the book immensely, but not much more than that.

In any case, Jim has been posting excerpts from 'Hans Yog Prakash' by Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, Haha's father. They're inactive now and I feel like refreshing his memory.

The book is available here.

Lord, I bow before your Lotus Feet. I come to Your shelter, My Guru Maharaj Ji, and bow before You. You remove the three forms of suffering which we find in this world, disease, disaster and ignorance of the soul.

You remove the fear of this world. You are the very incarnation of good fortune, and filled with blissfulness. You are Shiva, the one who lets endless nectar flow.

You are Generator, Operator and Destroyer, You are the Lord of Lords, King of Kings, the most High. I do not know how to remember You nor how to meditate upon You. You are Lord Shiva incarnate.

You are hidden within the cave of the heart, and you expand to fill the universe. You reveal Yourself to be consciousness itself. I bow before you.

You are the Lord of all the blessed, the rescuer of Your devotees. I bow before You. You are beyond time, unique, incomparable. You are the one that all prayers turn to. You can be seen yet remain quite invisible. You are all power and glory, You are the noble Buddha. My Satgurudev, salutations!

I echo Jim's observation that Shri Hans Ji Maharaj could actually express himself coherently and in style. Haha can do neither. Something's amiss. Evolution dictates that progress is towards more completion and higher forms of life. This situation is clearly devolution. Please see definiton #4.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 03:01:26 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Autobiography Of A bullshit artist liar.
Message:
yogananda was a lying sack of shit.
prem rawat's dad was a mind fucking lying sack of crowned shit.
all the old man did in his talks was twist qoutes from other
confused indians to support his schtick. He was clearly mad.

evolution be damned, we will never outgrow Murphy's Law.
No one will ever have a perfect life, and no one will be without
problems. No one will go from success to success to success.
No one will avoid failure of some form. The dang god will not allow it.

It is the proof of god.

No one attains any state and stays except momentarily, except perhaps those ex's in Her Majesties Kingdom who go to raves and
maintain 'ecxtasy' for hours. All claims to a path to god are
fantasy. The god is there, you are there, no path.
Ignore or interact, the god seems most interested in creativity.
But the door is shut, and those that pretend that we can
enter and become god, or MORE god, are wasting our time pretending.

We dont want to admit boundries, but, reality is, they are there.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 11:42:50 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: bill
Subject: Good Post
Message:
I just reread your post. I guess sometimes you have to read things twice.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 01:20:53 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Evolution Vs. Creation
Message:
An excerpt from 'The Celestine Prophesy', p. 176.

He looked at me with condescension. 'Not just our religion; everyone's religion. Do you think there is no plan for this world? God is in control. He assigns our destiny. Our job is to obey the laws set forth by God. Evolution is a myth. God creates the future the way he wants it. To say humans can make themselves evolve takes the will of God out of the picture. It allows people to be selfish and separate. They think that their evolution is the important thing, not God's plan. They will treat each other even worse than they do now.'

I said above that 'evolution dictates that progress is towards more completion and higher forms of life'. I guess that to reconcile the two statements you could say that evolution occurs the way God wants it to occur. Then how does Mahamarji fit into this picture? The two things that come to mind are negative example and pendulum.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 03:07:57 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Celestine Idiot
Message:
Steve, the celestine guy was insane. And he is completely full of confusion and is lying.

The evidence does not support any of idiot claims about god.
'our job is to obey the laws set forth by god'-ha ha ha,
pathetic analysis. Too bad we dont live to 700 years old, we could watch these idiots finally live long enough to regret and be embarrassed by thier own unenlightened pompous teachings.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 13:49:33 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: bill and Steve
Subject: Celestine Idiot
Message:
I'm with Sylvia Browne on this one...

'You move a few rocks around and leave. Just make it through this life without committing suicide. And you're a success.'

Ok, that was not an exact quote - but, really close.

Regards,
Elaine

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:23:35 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: One Step Further
Message:
Degeneration. I think this word describes what I was trying to get across and is less mystifying than 'devolution'. Another way to say this is 'negative evolution'. There are sayings about this, such as 'two steps forward and one step backward'.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 20:01:06 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Steve Quint + everyone
Subject: Hans Yog Prakash:'The servant is his Master's dog'
Message:
r.e. DOG/GOD: 'The servant is his Master's dog.'

In the 'Servant or Slave' chapter, Hans writes that the devotee should be like a good doggie, serving and living only for the orders of the rugu. translation: devotee = mongrel slave of the greedy guru[s].

Premies, you are lowly 'dogs' - in the eyes of the materialist Rawat rugus. woof woof - here's a bone, doggy, now fetch my slippers. bad doggy - go outside in the cold rain.

Unquestioningly give guru all your money and love, doggie, and guru will just keep abusing you, reinforcing your wretched state of curdom, and periodically kicking you in the teeth or hind with condescending metaphors, guilt trips and putdowns -- until one day, by chance or the grace of intelligence [or outside intervention], you finally wake up and start using your brain and realize that you are NOT a dog, after all - but a human being. Then, you realize that guru is not an omnipotent, omniscient god - but a very fallible, selfish and deluded person entrapped in his own maya [3-D illusion] - and that any meditation experience you have had is coming from within you, that the techniques are freely available elsewhere without false guru strings, and that the greedy guru and his Big Brother videos and condescending rants are numbing, brainwashing impediments to one's continued personal growth - which gradually rob a human being of one's own personal power, self-esteem, motivation/direction, or uniqueness.

Upon reflection and self-examination r.e. the cult's conceptual modus operandus, the process begins of unburdening the implanted conceptual layers of guru cult indoctrination - the cult mindset which reduces gullible, trusting humans to dogs but elevates greedy Radhasoami gurus to gods. Indeed, the ritual dehumanization and degradation of the devotees [students] and the accompanying idolatrous enshrinement of the guru [master] and his entire 'holy family' was the cumulative live/evil of guru personality cult brainwashing.

Premies - remove the dog collars and stand on your own 2 feet! You are not lower than a guru [or his family]; he is just a fallible deluded person egotistically intent on protecting his ill-gotten riches extracted from the long-suffering devotees, whose backs he and his family have ridden upon for 50+ years. Remember the words of Kabir: a true saint or perfect master NEVER asks for or accepts riches from his devotees. If knowledge is free, then a guru should never expect or accept payment or material gifts/wealth in return. Any guru who deceives his followers by alleging [or even hinting at] divine or superhuman status, who takes advantage of people's spiritual sincerity to extort money and riches from them, and who places himself, his comfort and insatiable material desires, and his clan interests above the human beings who are trusting and serving him and his mission has grossly and vilely abused his position.

Apparently, at the Nottingham event m. played the 'victim' card. As if the fawning cur premies created HIS own imperial, authorized and regimented control-freak cult bs for the past 30 years. Only a certifiable idiot or brain-dead cult lifer would fall for the utter revisionist lies now being fed to the aspirants and premies by m. and his EVI spin doctors.

If m. ever had any integrity, he should have done the Krishnamurti back in the 1970s when Mishler and others urged him to come down off his fake throne and just present the meditation without strings or false concepts. Instead, m. continued to milk the simple instruction of supposed spiritual meditation techniques for his own selfish empowerment and accumulation of worldly riches. He made the conscious choice then to follow the path of cheat and deceit -- cheating trusting people of their finances, energies, and lives, while deceiving them by making them believe that he was the mystical personal connection necessary for the effectiveness of their inner experience. Predictably, blame his subordinates and the other premies now yet once again for his own misdeeds, mistakes, and his own historical papal bulls [decrees]? Where is His accountability for his patent promulgation and perpetuation of a personality cult of bogus concepts, rituals, cult abuses, and revisionist lies? Shame, shame, shame. The buck, literally and proverbially, stops with m. So, stop sending those bucks, premies, and the buck will surely stop with m. The truth will set you free.

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 00:41:06 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: Really? A chapter called ''Servant or Slave?''...
Message:
''In the 'Servant or Slave' chapter, Hans writes that the devotee should be like a good doggie, serving and living only for the orders of the rugu. translation: devotee = mongrel slave of the greedy guru[s].''

I'd love to hear some quotes from THAT. I especially liked:

''Remember the words of Kabir: a true saint or perfect master NEVER asks for or accepts riches from his devotees. If knowledge is free, then a guru should never expect or accept payment or material gifts/wealth in return. Any guru who deceives his followers by alleging [or even hinting at] divine or superhuman status, who takes advantage of people's spiritual sincerity to extort money and riches from them, and who places himself, his comfort and insatiable material desires, and his clan interests above the human beings who are trusting and serving him and his mission has grossly and vilely abused his position.''

That can't be said enough. M often quotes Kabir to show the premies what their proper attitude toward The Master should be. It's interesting to hear what he leaves out. Very telling.

Thanks for a great post.

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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 20:54:14 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: A chapter called 'Servant or Slave':
Message:
SERVANT OR SLAVE
'A servant is someone who is always serving. Kabir says, service alone entitles someone to be called a SERVANT.

A servant is always doing his service, he doesn’t wander off in the middle of it. He puts up with both pain and pleasure, says Kabir.

The intellect of the servant and the intellect of his MASTER become one. They merge with each other.

The Master is never pleased by cleverness. He is only pleased by the feelings of the heart.

Stay near the RICH man’s door, and accept his BLOWS. He may be pleased one day and give you his favour.

Kabir says that THE GURU WISHES TO OWN EVERYTHING, but no-one is willing to belong to the Guru. As long as you expect your body to be good to you, you cannot become HIS SLAVE.

He who is not TIED to the Guru is tied to this world, and he who is tied to the Guru is freed from the bonds of this world.

He who acts, but does not consider himself to be the actor, he it is who is called THE SLAVE.

The Guru is capable of doing anything, and He is always with you, HIS FEET REST UPON YOUR HEAD. What more do you need?

The goddesses of wealth and fortune, and the genius to accomplish all things, all are ready to serve the servant of the LORD. Salvation is never far from him.

If the Lord’s servant is weeping, the Lord Himself weeps with him. He appears before His servant in the twinkling of an eye, and grants him all his desires.

Such a SLAVE makes no demands on HIS MASTER, but serves HIM day and night. Kabir says, death will never call for him.

Guru is the provider of everything, and each receives according to his circumstances. His SERVANT loves Him from the heart, and clings to His FEET day and night.

THE SERVANT IS HIS MASTER'S DOG, his Master leads him on the string of love, and whatever his Master tells him, he does it.

When the GURU says 'GO,' he goes, and when HE says 'COME,' he comes. He lives AS HIS GURU SEES FIT to keep him, and eats whatever his Guru gives.

People call themselves the SLAVE OF THE GURU, but they do not feel that they are slaves from the core of their hearts.

How can my thirst be quenched, if I refuse to drink water? How can I be HIS TRUE SLAVE if I have no humility.

I do NOT ask for the pleasures of this world, NOT do I pray for salvation. I beg only YOUR devotion. I do not visit other people and make demands on them. It is to YOU alone that I turn.

'When earth and sky vanish, and Mount Olympus itself is no more, when all is one, where will Your SLAVES be found?'

'Let everything merge together, no matter. Let Olympus itself be brought down, let earth and sky be no more. MY SLAVES shall find refuge in Me.'

You should surrender your mind to the true servant, who would far rather die than betray his Lord.

This world is like an attic full of cobwebs. Happy are those servants of the Lord who can enter it without getting covered in dust.

Those who are not in love can rest easy, but he who has fallen in love knows no sleep at all. He is restless, he spends his night like a fish out of water.

Why should he be sad, who has the Lord dwelling in his heart? You should make more and more effort to see Him, and all will be light.

Kabir says that God alone is awake. He says that no-one is awake but Him. He says, EITHER worldly men are awake, or the true servants of the Lord are awake.

My Lord is enthroned in every heart. No-one is without Him. But blessed is that heart in which he reveals His presence.'

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 18:38:59 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: such
Subject: YIKES! K-Lite it's NOT. It's really TOO HORRIBLE
Message:
I remember M trying to justify the word Master, saying it's just a word, it shouldn't bother anyone, that it was Master-student, NOT Master-SLAVE. Did he not bother to read his own fathers teachings, his father who he revears so much? Or is he just a bold-faced liar? How disingenuous!

I'd like to see a place on EPO where this is quoted, so current aspirants can see what they are not being told. When I had started posting here and said Masters were for dogs, not people, I had no idea that Shri Hans had said in no uncertain terms that his devotees were their Master's dog. I would say ''LOL'', but I can't because what is being described in those quotes is SICK. It's the basis for all the abuse that has happened. It hurts a bit, because I feel betrayed all over again. :-( Yet it explains a lot, idolization and devotion of M, which never meshed for me with the K-Lite explanation of K I was given.

I've read about other guru's since finding EPO, and they all seem to talk drivel like that at some point. They all want dog-like obedience. Maharajism is just another brand of Gurujism. K-Lite is just a Spoonful of sugar to help the ''medicine'' go down. It covers up the bad taste so the bad tasting stuff can get through. But the ''medicine'' itself seems like a dysfunctional illenss to me. More like poisen. Dangerous, twisted religious hooey. No thank you.

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Date: Wed, Jun 27, 2001 at 17:52:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: 'Servant or Slave': That's some sick shit, Swami
Message:
No wonder Rawat Junior does not quote his father's BS.
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 20:41:45 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: You are such-a-wise-banana!.../nt
Message:
Beautifully written. I hope the prems appreciate this. You're sincerity and campassion is truly evident.
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Date: Tues, Jun 26, 2001 at 04:28:03 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Deborah
Subject: You're A Sweetheart, Deborah
Message:
I saw my psychiatrist today and it was great. I'm lucky, I've got a good head shrinker.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 13:38:25 (GMT)
From: nagual
Email: None
To: cq,f, jim et al
Subject: don puerco
Message:
my punctuation is my punctuation..period..but i thank cq for
bringing on the subject of gnosticism..in fact gnosis does mean
knowledge..there has been a great abundance of gnostic schools in asia minor mostly related to the christian myth but also
based on judahism, greek paganism and persian zoroastrism....
now the main difference between gnosticism and exoteric religion
is they are connected to circular time (like the mesoamerican
indians ) whereas the monotheists have a linear time scheme.
the main distinction between the church and gnostics is that
the former believe that the jewish creator god is identical with
the god that jesus calls his father.the gnostics flatly and
rightfully deny that because how could such a bloodthirsty tyrant
as jehohav be the father of light that jesus talked about..
all this is explained well in cq's post on the ophites...
on one hand the creator god that keeps people imprisoned in
this world, on the other hand that good god, the god of light,
that god's name is MAN..man is the supreme god him/herself..
in order to understand that the neophyte has to be initiated
into the secret, that is he must receive GNOSIS/KNOWLEDGE from
the hierophant, adept , master...those schools had a very sym-
bolic vocabulary and there was a need to dissimulate the true
teachings before the uninitiates since with the dawn of the
monotheistic religions who worked together with the rulers,
there was danger to life and limb to those who were members
of those schools..actually all religion was a mystery cult
prior to the advent of judahism with their wrathful one god..
the same principle one can find in the teachings of the bektashi
dervishes in turkey..and further east it is guru nanak and kabir
sahib-who were contemporaries- who uphold that very teaching,
both of them are best preserved in the radhasoami lineage of
gurus..they have excellent literature on nanak, kabir and other
mystics..again the same principle, the creator god, in india
called brahm (not brahma!) or kal is the bad guy, he is the
source of MIND..that controls the three lower worlds..beyond
the reach of kal are only the swans /hansas , the enlightened
souls whose ultimate goal is to reach satlok ,the indestructable
abode of the sant satguru (hence prempal's name sant ji)...
when a hansa reaches satlok he is called paramhansa..or sant..
so you see at least in the relgions dealing with a god, the
principle is bad god- good god and the good one is man embodied
in man,the perfect master as a symbol unto every man, because
every man/woman is capable of reaching this liberation thru the
guidance of a master, thus the famous ill-reputed principle of
guru is greater than god...but if one does not have the proper
understanding of those things, people think guru worship is a
personality cult...when you worship the guru you in fact worship
yourself, every human being as god....but maybe i should not
be disclosing these secrets...why don't you use your own brains?
what i mean is that there has been this endless battle between
light and darkness (circular time, go ask mani who also got
crucified in 273 or so, but he should be around again by now,
as one of these toltek serpents..), the battle between ignorance
and knowledge...the battle between the creator god and that
sweet' snake that giveth knowledge and delight ' (where's that
from ?)..the funny thing is that prempal succeeded in presenting
what is a mystery cult of gnostic background as something devoid
of spirituality and beyond religion..clever dude he is.. he uses
the principle of dissimulation like every mystic teacher..
because we're dealing with........yes ......
REALITY...so, sorry no dzogchen teachings this time...
but maybe at another time..by the way i been empowered by the
one called circe009 ...this is nagual don puerco..oink oink
thank you for reading all this.....
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 19:06:46 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: nagual
Subject: El Porco- oops, sorry, didn't mean to get familiar
Message:
There's a difference, you know (at least I hope you do) between learning about/studying the origins of mankind's belief-systems and actually believing them.

That's where we appear to differ, big-time, Nagual (or should I call you 'Hanuman', as Pat C indicates was your former alias on this forum?).

OK, so maybe the differences between us aren't as fundamental as some of us might think, (after all, I was a premie once, as apparently are you), but I have to be straight with you, Nagual (or can I call you Fred? Why? Hmmmmmm ... somehow seems more natural, y'know) and, in the spirit of honesty (why am I faffing about? - say it man, say it) - I have this to say about your attempt to enlighten us about the Gnostics -

frankly, it marks you out as a would-be unconventialist (and punctuation is an aid to communication, chummy, not an enemy) - as I say, a would-be unconventionalist whose knowledge of the esoteric is ill-served in merely boosting your own 'know-all' type boasting (an aspect of the human ego which I'm sure many of us have encountered, and some of us can still admit to).

Yup, Naggy, get down to it. You want to see the superiority of your 'master' i.e. Mr Rawat reflected in all of history and/or myth. Trouble is, chum, Mr Rawat, though he might have conned a few thousand of us into believing his claims to be our 'all' to us, is NOT the personification of the will to good in you, me or anyone else. He is a fallible human, much like the rest of us, though some people's attempts to turn him into some kind of aspect of divinity means that he can afford to spend his time ensnaring yet more suckers into the trap that even he claims to be unaware of setting.

.
.
.

Freedom? Now where in the name of GROK do you see freedom in being a premie?

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 15:27:26 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: nagual
Subject: too much enlightenment
Message:
Hi Nagual......

maybe, maybe there is somekind of religious logic in that what you wrote. But I speculate, that your life would be better without that stuff.

take care....wolfie

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 22:13:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: too much lighting up! dem drugs sho give good
Message:
HALLUCINATIONS!
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 00:23:19 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: nagual
Subject: I don't understand what you're talking about ..
Message:
..I do hope you haven't been shoving hallucinogenic cacti up your arse . What fucking secrets shouldn't be disclosed , you're like one of those dumbfuck characters in a Breughal (or was it Bosch can't remember offhand) painting carrying a bucketful of light from indoors into daylight .

I didn't have time to reply to your snake musings down below , but have you ever read Robert Graves' essay on being bitten by a viper ? He was crackers too but at least kept his esoteric musings within the culture he understood .

Anyway it seemed to him that the effect of the venom produced visions , particularly of a spinning silver disc which had been alluded to in many ancient texts , myths , hero stories etc.

Seems to me your snake is slowing down . He doesn't appear to be finding a lot more people to bite & the poison is working itself out of the systems of many of his past victims.

Greetings from the 4th lowest world . Ha ,you didn't know about that one did you . Fucking oink to you too .Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 06:28:52 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Spinning silver disc
Message:
There is this alcoholic musician here in town who has been spouting off for years about the spinning disc that he sees when he plays music. Moves around in rythym and time to the beat of the song he says, he calls it the axis.

Seems that he has been influenced by the venom of another snake, the bottle, he frequents the many weekly jam sessions here, tortured and tormented few have taken him seriously or even humuored him.

Maybe he is on to something, axis bold as love as Jimi Hendrix said

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 19:04:29 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: nagual
Subject: Hi Nagual, most of us know this stuff already
Message:
Remember we were all spiritual seekers once and that's why we became premies. I'm not saying that it is not interesting. It is but not for most of the guys here because many of us are moving away from ''received wisdom'' and are trying to find our own words and cosmologies and not just rehash spiritual cliches. But thanks anyway for taking the time to write it.

If your writings get ripped to shreds here consider posting them over on Lifes Great where people like my friend, Cosmic Traveller, will enjoy discussing spirituality and theology with you.

Also I am sure that I recognize your ''tone of voice'' and philosophy and know who you are and I must say that I appreciate that you are now being more polite and less condescending than you were when you posted as hanuman.

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 18:41:23 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: nagual
Subject: Naggie, thanks but ...
Message:
Naggie,

I did read this all, and some of it makes sense, in that it's your own personal view or 'take' on studying all these mystery traditions and religions. The mistake you make is assuming that many of us don't know all this. You said:

thus the famous ill-reputed principle of guru is greater than god...but if one does not have the proper understanding of those things, people think guru worship is a personality cult...when you worship the guru you in fact worship yourself, every human being as god....but maybe i should not be disclosing these secrets...why don't you use your own brains?

I do understand that that's what it's sold to be--actually finding your true self through working with a master or adept. And what many people here are saying, without taking the whole ride through all these other religions and cultures, is that we don't buy the theory. At least I don't. I don't think I need a 'master' to find what some people label 'the divine' in myself. To have the proper understanding of these things as you put it, is merely buying into the disciple/master thing. And these aren't such great secrets. There's loads of books on these subjects and even if one isn't initiated into some cult or system or other, there's enough information out there to glean the essence of the idea quoted above.

The Tibetan Buddhists sell that whole trip also. For example, when you do the whole extended refuge tree visualization, after prostrating to all these dieties and meditating upon them, they all dissolve into you. And of course, the main lineage deity, Vajradhara (at least in the Kagyu lineage) is supposed to be in essence 'your guru.'

This all justifies the fact that although you appear to be worshiping or bowing to deities and gurus, you are bowing down, in essence to yourself. These are all nice theories, but people do not find these practices or religions necessary, including Maharji's Westernized version of guru-jism.

But thanks for the discussions. You're at least putting it out there and trying to be less cryptic. It was the know-it-all cryptic attitude that was getting to me, and you've dropped that.

peace, f

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 14:10:44 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: nagual
Subject: don puerco
Message:
Nagual,

I've got no reason to believe any of this stuff, and really, neither do you. It's all in your own mind. You just can't see that. You have no ability, at all, it seems, to discern reality from fantasy. You don't even have good fantasies. Every bit of this fantasy you just shared has been around a long, long time handed down from one generation to the next. At least come up with something original, willya? This one's gettin' kinda old.

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 08:52:47 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The only proof needed - we exist - so fuck off!
Message:
Hi all.

This is an ongoing, incubating process of clarifying for myself about MJ and his work in the world.

Said in a fairly snooty and pompous tone by an overweight and be-wigged lawyer, much like lawyers in british films - with a few script suggestions. 'Now I submit, your honour, that it is entirely irrelevant to my argument, whether the Maharaj JI[big emphasis on the Ji], takes drugs, carouses, is an alcoholic, abuses peoples trust, choses inept managers, covers up felonies, sleeps around and is a thoroughly unscrupulous character. No, you honour it does not matter one whit whether he does these things in truth or they are only the slanderous ramblings or disgruntled ex-followers. And why is this so. Well you may ask. Please bear with me.

The ex-premie forum, your honour, is all that is required to prove that the Maharaj JI and his work is not only a failure but a terrible failure at that.

Is the ex-premie site a nice place to go? Is the ex-premie site an easy place to spend time? The answer must be no. And an emphatic NO!!!!. It is in fact a very troubled place. A very scary place for some. There is even a warning before entering. There is a lot of pain expressed on this site. There is a lot of hatred expressed on this site. There is anger flowing every which way. Even those that come for solace often get shoved around on this site.

Is it right that such a place should exist in this world? Again the answer is no. And more emphatically NO!!!!!!.

This place exists solely because of the Maharaj JI and the Marahaj JI's vain and inept attempts to bring some teachings to various countries.

Irrespecting of his intentions, laudable as they might be, this site exists because of his failures to undertake his work in a proper and fitting manner.

It matters not that there are numerous persons prepared to speak in his defence. It matter not in the least. We must remember that the end does not justify the means.

If there are people who follow the Maharaj JI and feel he brings them happiness, if there are people who follow the Maharaj JI and feel he brings them contentment this is all well and good for those people but what about the others? Who is taking care of the others? Who is concerned about the ex-premies and the ex-premies that post on the ex-premie site? The site is, I submit your honour, but the tip of an iceberg and a big iceberg at that. It is the smoke around a fire. It is indicative of deeper and more disturbing results from the Mahara JI's work.

The Maharaj JI's work in the world has caused the ex-premie site to exist. This site is clearly an abomination - it is akin to a survivors group for children who have been abused, or one for people who lived with alcoholics, or victims of crime. Such sites should not exist - they point to utter failures in our culture. And the only way to get rid of them is to stop the causes. Stop the alcoholism, stop the child abuse, stop the crime - and in the the Maharaj JI's case - stop him continuing to do his work so that there are not more and more people having to come to the ex-premie forum.

So there you have it your honour. I submit that the ex-premie site, far from needing to prove anything about the Maharaj JI[emphasis on the M and the JI], is indeed a proof in itself. [banging on the table and very het up]It is ongoing prima facie evidence of the bad works of the Maharaj JI.'

For your consideration.

Cheers

peter Howie

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 21:33:15 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Releasing feels good, doesn't it!....
Message:
Hi Peter...Sounds to me like you're the type of guy who likes his swallow the truth Whole. This forum is great for those releases.

How are you feeling?

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 22:29:04 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Releasing feels good, doesn't it!....Thanks D
Message:
Thanks for that!

I don't know quite why but I'm completely tickled by your response. And yes I do like the truth whole which I'm sure has its downsides, which I wont try and conjure up now.

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 16:37:00 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Aha,finally a purpose for you lawyers.Nice nt
Message:
nn
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 09:45:40 (GMT)
From: clarence clear
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: The only proof needed - we exist - so fuck off!
Message:
Good post absolutly spot on thanks.
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 08:07:53 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Drips' and Learning - a way to look at it
Message:
Hi all.

Been thinking about this for a while now. See what you make of it.

A natty character at Monash University - Berne Neville - writes a lot about a lot of stuff but the most interesting is on learning. He wrote a book called 'Educating Psyche' a few years ago - still available I guess.

Anyway the book was about learning and how it happens. I use it a lot when working with adults both to assist me with them, be compassionate to where they are at and assist to them to be compassionate about their own learning. Neville sees learning as a 4 step process - or at least these 4 steps are part of it.

Step one - preparation - this in formal learning terms is like school or uni, training courses, reading and studying generally - or in premie terms it is like when we get the first bit of disconfirming evidence about MJ et al - the first 'drip'. In our western culture it is often thought that preparation is the last step in learning hence first year out, 21y.o. Engineers are often supervising people with 10 -20 years more experience - or doctors. Those of us with a bit more life experience would recognise that this preparation phase is simply a step in learning. I guess this site is like about 50 drips for those looking and interested - concentrated drippings.

Step two - incubation - this is where the ideas, experiences, and other preparation material chugs around in our conscious and unconscious minds, in discussions with peers, colleagues and other assorted people. During this phase for premies other 'drips' may build into the incubation period. I've seen many people doing their incubation out in public on this forum - Sandy would be one that springs to mind or people who start here with a pseudonym and them move through to the next phase and revert to their 'real' name. In the world I work in it is people working out how to work effectively with people - a most difficult endeavour.

Step 3 - illumination - this is where it all 'clicks' or a person has an 'ah-ha' moment - the drips become a river. Everything is suddenly wonderfully clear on a particular subject. So it might be for a premie the moment that a premie becomes an ex, or understands why they must become an ex, or finally understands why they have been feelings so bad for so long, or why they have felt good for that matter(and not to do with MJ). It often happens when premies return after and absence of time and it is with MJ that they become ex-premies. In my work my clients suddenly get something about working with people - like, believe it or not - relationships are very, very important and people are not interchangeable cogs.

Step 4 - verification - the most important and often left out step. This means checking the ideas with others, other groups, with research, with other writing. Finding out how far out is this idea or insight. With premies becoming ex's this is essential. This forum is a great place for the checking out and you will often see people posting and lurking for that very reason - they have had an illumination and are now checking it out.

This model is also useful in understanding how we got in to it all to start with.

It might have happened something like this

An experience either good or bad (drugs, suffering, lonliness etc) that led to the illumination that 'searching was important'. This idea verified in a pseudo manner with other seekers and so the preparation and incubation is on with input from Carlos Castenada, Ram Das and endless other purveyors of interesting ideas - the incubation was more like a real mixed soup. Then ran into premies/MJ and he said things that brought about an illumination. No verifiaction took place at this point apart from MJ and premies. Because the illumination, which took place in the persons psyche, seemed to emanate or be caused by MJ a person mistakes it as coming directly from MJ and they am encouraged in this belief by premies etc - e.g. Pia's site.

The main mistakes here are that a) The illumination (which after all is just a good idea/insight comes from the person themselves and their previous thinking, planning, cogitating, preparation and the funny ideas they'd taken on - it was their hard work . At this point an illumination may be absolute crap (as with MJ)or a very good one (as with non-linear maths for instance - and their are other famous illuminations in science) b) MJ was the catalyst for the illumination not the originator if it. A person is the originator of it. Same with any other insights - a peron has them because they have been doing the hard work (or soft work in the case of drugs etc) that leads to the conclusions. c) No real verification process or selective verification from premies e.g. 'Tell me how much I need MJ' etc.

Comments - Step 3 - the illumination process is where guru's come in as well as high paid consultants and business wankers like Robbins and others. They say things that make sense - but only because a person has been thinking and considering that area for some time. They simply crystallise the words a person can't quite grapple with. These business guru's are only marginally ahead of the game. This process occurs on this forum regularly - the 'BEST OF FORUM' messages are where someone else has captured an accurate representation of mine or another's ideas. Take this process to a higher level and a person hears MJ talking to their soul/heart/psyche.

There is not one linear lerning stream but endless overlapping streams and indeed some learning needs many illuminations and verifications along the way - such as 'what is life all about' or 'how to be happy' etc. The verification process is usually absent because most of us have such a fucked relationship with learning from just about anyone - thanks mostly to our authoritarian teachers and schools - apologies to you teachers out there - but you know better than anyone. So when a person has these illuminations they are usually not well placed with relationships with a wide range of people whos ideas and input are trusted. Hence - who listened to their parents about MJ? - but I wish I had now. Who listened to their friends when they dropped out of MJ? - not me baby - I knew better - bugger it. So there is this tendency created to try and hold onto the illumination as it answers something and I don't want the question to keep coming up.(This is reminiscent of the ambiguity discussing below)

Anyway - see what you make of this stuff - preparation - incubation - illumination - verification.

As for this site - posters and lurkers are at various points with regards MJ. Some come here for preparation - to find out, read about and don't conclude anything at that point and they are not stupid becasue of it. Some for verification - they have concluded or illuminated and are checking their ideas out. Some are clearly in an incubation phase - they are not clear - they are hesitant and swap sides even as they post (and consequently drive Jim, and others mad) and that is required. This isn't about rote learing or rote-unlearning. Some read something here and voila - illumination - something clicks/drips for them either in the way things are said, or the quality of the information or the reputation of the person or because they knew the preon - and thank god then some decent verification can follow it up.

Enough - congratulations to you if you have got this far.

Cheers for now

Peter Howie

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:34:07 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Great Sunday morning read...Thank you. (nt)
Message:
yo
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:19:25 (GMT)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: 'Drips' and Learning - a way to look at it
Message:
Thanks Peter, great post !!!
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 07:18:48 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Tribute To The French Government
Message:
I was just flipping radio stations - I'm trying to get some softer rock back into my life - and settled on some beautiful Haitian sounding music which turned out to be on the local French language station. I'm still listening to that station and it makes me think kind thoughts about the French Government who put their foot down on insidious cults.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 07:39:52 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Tribute To The French Government
Message:
Yes, at least they have the courage to get involved in the GOD business. It's a very sticky situation since most governments no doubt view this religious/spiritual stuff as an opiate which shields them from even closer scrutiny.
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 07:50:31 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Good Post There, Sir nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 03:19:12 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rawat statements can't bear logical scrutiny
Message:
Got a hold of a slippery subject and need your assistance.

Let me try to subject a Rawatian statement, such as “I declare I will establish Peace in this world!” (Peace Bomb) to logical analysis, and see what results.

I will assume that if the statement is uttered in a public setting, then it is using the meanings (denotations and connotations) conventionally understood by most people. Sounds like stopping wars, bringing about ceasefires, etc., doesn’t it?

If we assume the statement is a metaphor, or in a secret code, then who is to decipher it? I remember rationalizing the above statement years ago, as “he meant he would establish inner peace, or a way to access inner peace.” That didn’t fly too well with the aspirant I was talking to.

If we cannot easily decipher these statements, then it looks as if Rawat is giving his own meanings to words. This brings us back to Lewis Carroll’s 'Alice in Wonderland': ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.’

Other possibilities:
1. He is lying.
2. He is posturing or play-acting (deceiving us to sound like something he is not).
3. He is manipulating or teasing the emotions (as charismatic orators do) to bring the audience to the emotional state he desires. This is analogous to the salesperson who will tell the customer anything in order to get the sale, or to the seducer who will say whatever it takes to get the seducee into bed.
4. He is not responsible for his utterances (talking under the influence of alcohol or drugs, channeling “somebody else,” or talking like someone who is mentally ill).

Both Occidental and Oriental systems of law and business are founded on the premise that one takes responsibility for one’s words, fulfills promises, and does not lie.

As a human being, a public figure, and a leader, Rawat needs to take responsibility for his words. Why then, did his organization (EV) make legal efforts to shut down the ex-premie sites that displayed his past statements?

Conclusions:
1. One cannot trust Rawat statements to mean what they appear to mean.
2. Rawat is unwilling to take responsibility for his words.
3. Rawat is not concerned about the truth-value of his words.

What did I leave out?
Thanks,
Henry

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 17:35:16 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: Rawat statements can't bear logical scrutiny
Message:
Interesting analysis Henry. What most resonated with me is that M is 'posturing or play-acting'. But really, that doesn't quite say it either. I think he is intelligent enough to realize what he has perpetrated and also he believes in what he says but, when confronted by another reality, has the fall back position of his 'mission' driven by the inherited mind-set Steve Quint set forth. M's psychology is a huge can of worms and not easily dissected. Thanks for trying though.
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 14:09:17 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: M is a school dropout at 6th grade level
Message:
You think maybe they taught logic in his Catholic elementary school?
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 14:13:04 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Wildflower
Subject: M is a school dropout at 6th grade level
Message:
With a devout Hindu mother, a devout guru worshipping guru father and a devout Catholic school education it's no wonder he was drowning in confusion when he became 'master' (???) at the age of eight. He was obviously a perfect puppet for whoever was pulling his strings.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 21:28:11 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: M not just a high-school dropout
Message:
yes Steve...but he didn't stay 8. That's the problem. He is 43 and surrounded by some pretty business savvy devotees.

I was doing service at the International Instructors Conference in 1988 (?) and got to sit in and listen to M as he was coaching the prems to be more confident and wordly in business.

One of the sleek little euphorisms he used was:

'First you grab them by the balls, then their head and their heart will follow.'

This impressed me at the time because i thought most prems were socially disfunctional and not unlike many artists, unsophisticated in the real business world.

M was in full charge at this training. He was smug-although at the time, it was a turn on-he was precise, and he was sleek.

It's time for him to fess'up. How much longer can he go on?

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 22:23:39 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Deborah
Subject: Business Savvy Devotees
Message:
Excellent post, Deborah. I look forward to a journey entry or more insightful postings from you. I just looked for a journey entry from you but couldn't find one. I haven't done one myself as I'm waiting for this to unfold before starting to write one, as there's too much unfinished business around these issues.

Your post complements mine well as in fact Haharaji moved gradually from mahatma influence to business savvy devotee influence. He may be a puppet who chooses who pulls his strings.

I ask myself what business savvy devotees could possibly get out of association with the Haha. What they get is possibly status but even more so valuable experience in manipulating people which they can apply to their own businesses and consulting practices while with the Haha or after leaving him. Cynical and very very sad.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:17:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: employees
Message:
'I ask myself what business savvy devotees could possibly get out of association with the Haha.'

Some of them get premie employees.

Some are getting money by running Rawat's shell companies.

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:05:59 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Business Savvy Devotees
Message:
Hi Steve,

No, I haven't written my journey yet but I'll tackle that job next week after my essay for (UVic)is complete. I've learned so much in the past few weeks about my own past experience that I can be clearer about 'how I feel' and 'what I going to say'. Needless to say I've gone through a lot of phases of cult detox and my point of view changes hourly, thanks to this forum.

Regarding my post-you say:

I ask myself what business savvy devotees could possibly get out of association with the Haha. What they get is possibly status but even more so valuable experience in manipulating people which they can apply to their own businesses and consulting practices while with the Haha or after leaving him. Cynical and very very sad.

Steve-I don't see this as cynical as you do, probably because I was one of the premies who would loved to have closed deals for the Chump. First and foremost-the business savvies were devotees not 'How to be a Selfish Egotist' seminar attendants.

Many of the PAMs natural skills were used for M and now that they're divorced from the BigHead they are allowing themselves to use these skills for their own career moves. I support them. I am angry that the talent I witnessed was hijacked for M's selfish purposes. Business doesn't have to be abusive, perhaps the PAM's have deep ethics because of the hurt that they also endured.

We're in this together, aren't we?

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 21:33:53 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Everyone read this!!!!
Message:
One of the sleek little euphorisms he (Maharaji) used was:

'First you grab them by the balls, then their head and their heart will follow.'

Wasn't this originally some political leader?

Anyway, it just shows the blatant psychological manipulation Maharaji is now using.

Any premies reading this - GET OUT NOW!!!

John Brauns
Middle-of-the-forest
Latvia

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 02:25:31 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: It was LBJ who said it
Message:
LBJ's version was 'if you've got their pecker in your pocket, they'll listen to you'. The idea is you control what is very important to the person you are trying to control and they will do what you say. This is the type of politics practiced currently by Shrub (US president) except his scheme went awry with Sen. Jeffords defecting. In M's case, I think what he gives the PAM's is attention. After witholding his attention, even the slightest nod gets interpreted as confirmation. Pathetic but there you are.
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 12:49:30 (GMT)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: I think the answer is #4. All of the above. (nt)
Message:
yo
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 01:52:10 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Placebo and knowledge and darshan
Message:
While reading the forum suddenly a thought occurred to me.
I once read that all placebos (I mean the ones which seem to have effect) can be stopped in their tracts by administering Narcan, which is an antidote for opiates, used in emergency rooms for OD's.
It made me wonder what would happen to all the bliss of even the most devoted premies when they would be exposed to this drug.
(This drug is not supposed to be an antidote to feeling good, just for the narcotic and imaginary euphorias.)
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 08:23:23 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Control group crucially important here..
Message:
It's an interesting experiment, Bob, but might there be a design problem to overcome? I mean, a 'euphoria-removing' drug might be be no more than 'a drug to make you feel bad', irrespective of prior state. To control for this you would need a control group of non-euphoric subjects. How would Narcan affect these..?

Even then if the controls' moods weren't significantly altered from neutral while the other groups showed a bliss-reduction, you still couldn't be sure that 'holy' and 'biochemical' euphorias were one and the same. The removal of one of these states might be no more than 'side-effect', or accidental secondary action of the drug.

But although this experiment would be insufficient to confirm the 'sameness' hypothesis, it would certainly be a necessary result - and, for that alone, worth doing...

Any premie volunteers out there?


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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 09:44:19 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Control group crucially important here..
Message:
It would be hard to get permission from the FDA for this expiriment.
But there is a lot of anecdotal info with ER workers about this drug. That is where I got the info that is does not affect 'normal' happiness. (Which has a lot to do with dopamine in the gratification center) But most ER docs are more into looking at a functioning level than a bliss level. If I go back to school one of these years, I will definitely look into it.
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 03:28:17 (GMT)
From: Henry
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Placebo and knowledge and darshan
Message:
Sounds like an interesting idea.

Placebos in themselves do not alter brain chemistry (they're usually just sugar). It is the belief system of those who take the placebo and expect them to work, that seems to produce the expected effect.

Do belief systems affect brain chemistry?
And does Narcan depress or normalize brain chemistry?
Is a meditationally-induced high any different in the brain than a drug-induced high?
I don't have the answers to these questions. Who does?

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 10:21:52 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Henry
Subject: Placebo
Message:
(I should be on my way to work)
Placebo's , or their suggestion, are supposed to trigger release of endorphins, which interact with the 'opiate- receptors' in the brain. Narcan removes the opiates or endorphins from the receptors to take its place for several hours. (only, it does not have any effect) I have no idea if meditation works on the same receptors.
I would think that true meditation would do more than just that.
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 11:57:20 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Placebo
Message:
I would think that true meditation would do more than just that.

Why would you think that, Bob? What if 'true' meditation wasn't more than that? In studies done by scientists on meditating Buddhists they found that there is very definitely an alteration in brain activity that correlates with mystical experience. If you want to learn more about this, there's a fairly interesting book on the subject called Why God Won't Go Away by Andrew Newberg and Eugene D'Aquilli. It's actually one of several books dealing with the new science known as neurotheology. Both scientists are careful to state that their findings don't disprove the existence of God, only if there is one, he communicates with us through our brains, which actually leads to the question how does he communicate with us when we're dead and have no brains? Hm, I guess the same thing could be said for some of the living, huh.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 13:16:16 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: This is called 'sensory deprivation'
Message:
and has a lot of drawbacks, including permanent damage for the brain.

There has been a lot of experiments on this issue recently, and I think an article's just been published in a recent Scientific American magazine's issue.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 01:25:18 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Traffic ticket
Message:
I should not have posted this morning. I got a bad speeding ticket on the way to work.
True meditation should be more than a release of endorphin?
Maybe. (the light technique actually stimulates a strong vagal response+ release of acetylcholine in the parasymphatic system)
(nectar might alter the balance between serotonin and melatonin)
Chinese martial arts work strongly on the cerebellum, and 'holy name' on the brainstem.
But more to the point: solving a mathematical problem makes the brain create beta waves.
The beta waves don't tell anything about the solution, right or wrong.
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 00:14:26 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a theory about Pia and her site...
Message:
1)Didn't we hear a few months ago when Michael Dettmers was in London (I believe staying with Patrick Wilson?) that someone from high up in the EV ranks told him that m reads the forum, knows of all the allegations about him, and was actually relieved in some ways, because it was getting harder to keep concealing this stuff from the premies...

2)Didn't he also say that there were talks in the EV upper echelons about how to deal with all of this?
Like how to spin it,what issues to deal with, and how and when?

3)Didn't it seem like they were trying to figure out how to minimize the damage?
Some sort of damage control.
Actually, I have heard that a friend of mine was contacted by EV to help with damage control (he has PR experience in the corporate world). EV would not tell him what they wanted, just that they wanted some advice. EV was VERY vague, which bothered him.

4)Wouldn't Pia's site be a perfect way to do it?

-Pia's site is probably be fully synchronized with EV, although it's supposedly independent.(so it's EV/M sanctioned, with no apparent connection to EV)

-Pia has announced that they will deal with the 'controversial allegations', although they will determine what ones, how and when.(a great way for EV to 'leak' information to the premies, without their fingerprints all over it)

-I can see Pia taking up the minor issues, with pat answers.
They will definitely take some minor blame (of course,99% will go to confused or overzealous premies)for small issues, maybe even let M take some small amount of heat for some tiny issue back in the 1970's.
They will acknowledge that no one was perfect, but that M still forges on with the heartfelt message.

-By acknowledging a few small things, they will attempt to paint themselves as open, reasonable folks who HAVE faced the issues.
And those nuts over at EPO, well they're just that hate club...

-This smacks of all the denial and evasiveness that M practices with his silly 'Q+A' sessions.
On the surface a 'Q+A' session looks good-the teacher is dealing with the sincere questions, comments and concerns of his students. Good stuff.
In reality, HE picks the questions.
They are generally stupid questions with obvious answers.
His attitude about questions also indicates that he considers them a stupid waste of time, and that if a premie were REALLY meditating, he/she wouldn't have any questions.

I see far too many parallels between the 'MO' of Pia,EV and M, to not believe they are all connected, and part of a plan to gradually leak certain minor pieces of information while denying the rest, to marginalize the critics,shore up the faithful, and look good to the premies who are trying to hang in there.

Keep up the stonewalling, look a little human, have a little humor,deny the critics....and most of all, keep up the donations to feed that rawat family business machine...

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 21:59:03 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: regarding your theory about Pia and her site...
Message:
Actually I agree with you and have been thinking differently about the Pia site for a few days now.

To me, it was in the tone of her latest posting. It sounded sad and deeply reflective. Although she didn't itemize anything exers said I sort of read her concern between the lines.

Also, someone posted with typical premie gush but made an emphatic plea not to refer to the EPO as a hate and anger site and insisted that she had 'friends' over here.

Q. Is it possible that the posting was a EV spin posting? If it is, it hints at the possibility that M is not going to try and perpetuate this game any more. I'm sure he wants to retire.

This possibility is very consistent with your theory that EV is about to engage in a massive Damage Control Project. It's the wisest move M can make? He can slowly but deliberately ride into the sunset.

Let's watch and see.

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 22:14:12 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Hey, that was my theory!
Message:
Although I'm sure anyone else could come up with it. I posted here several times earlier this year that Maharaji is seeking a way to retire. It's the only option he has. Continuing as a 'Master' will lead to excessive opposition as too many premies become exes and become angry. Retiring too suddenly will also result in an excessive reaction amongst premies. No, he needs an excuse that premies (at least most of them) will accept.

Of course this depends on Maharaji being sufficiently wealthy to live comfortably without further premies cash donations.

John the wondering if the Latvian pagan midummer bonfire is still burning after 26 hours.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 07:04:38 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Hey, that was my theory/The Excuse
Message:
He can tell them that they have all finally realized THIS WONDERFUL K and while he's not going anywhere, he won't be making anymore appearances except once a year in Amaroo(to stay ahead of the inflation curve).
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 23:11:50 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: No No -- It's my theory!
Message:
Just kiddin'...Tell me JHB do you agree with my specualtion re: Pia's latest posting and the EPO-friendly post is staged. What say you?
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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 04:53:52 (GMT)
From: Disgusted
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Theory is not reality
Message:
I'd say you are quite a sick woman if you think someone in their last days would 'stage' something like that.

Re-boot your hard drive, in fact re-write your entire system.

Who do you 'teach' at school? God help them.

disgusted.

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 23:41:56 (GMT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Disgusted
Subject: Sorry the plot was sick before I joined
Message:
Perhaps Pia does not realize that her site is being used for this. Certainly not above or beyond the strategists at EV. Best way to keep a secret is not to tell it? Is that also sick thinking or is it just thinking. Is thinking sick? Is thinking Maharaji is or was the Lord, sick? Is Maharaji sick for letting this cruel joke go on so long.

Have you considered the possibility that Maharaji is a fraud? Have you? Apparently you haven't or you would be joining the conversation not dictating it?

Are you scared that this is real? You should be, your belief system and inner security is revealingly fragile.

I'm not afraid to speculate. It's my birthright. So fuck off!

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Date: Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 05:42:36 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Disgusted
Subject: Theory is not reality
Message:
Dear Disgusted,

Of course someone in their last days would do service for their Lord. Why wouldn't they? And why is Deborah sick for thinking this?

It's obvious to me that Pia's site is officially sanctioned by Maharaji/EV.

John.

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 18:57:53 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: And no real debate
Message:
You're right on.

And since there's no real debate or presentation of the essence of opposing views, and their rebuttal, it's the sham we've all be saying it is. It's a pretend debate, or shadow-boxing, as I believe some one else put it.

'Pia's' site is a thumb-sucking baby blankie site for premies who have had their faith shaken a little bit, but don't really want to open Pandora's box. Psedo-debate and pseudo-opposition for those who are almost completely convinced, but need a little different type of medicine than is offered by the EV sites.

And, those are the only types of people it will work for. Anybody who's really got a fly in their ear about the whole M thing will simple do some Web searches and find this site, Sir Dave's site, House of Drek or whatever.

This is a major crack in M's armor. For years they did not acknowledge the opposition and denied it, and those in denial acquiesced. Pat Halley, Jagdeo, M's lifestyle, M's former statements. Now they seem to have no choice but to acknowledge the opposition, thus allowing the intellectually curious to find out for themselves and reach their own conclusions.

Thanks, la-ex

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 01:53:28 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: my possibly misplaced faith in human beings
Message:
I may be naive but...

I'm hoping Pia is really running her site herself.
I'm hoping she's actually concerned about the abuse by Jagdeo - which, btw, is NOT a premie vs. ex-premie issue.
I'm hoping EV isn't sanctioning everything she puts on her site.

I've become far more cynical since I've gotten older - and, la-ex, I can see why you posted what you did - but here's hoping.

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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 03:44:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: I doubt it's Pia's trip.
Message:
Pia is getting a lot of help, she even says other people are involved, but won't say who they are. I don't think she's doing the graphics or the web coding, it looks too slick, and she's a writer, not a web developer. There's just too much similarity between her site and other EV sites for me to think it's her trip. And I doubt Rawat would just let her do her own thing, even though it really isn't her own thing.
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Date: Sun, Jun 24, 2001 at 00:37:16 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: a theory about Pia and her site...
Message:
la-ex,

I think you've jolly well hit the proverbial nail right on the head!!

Ian

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