PatC -:- Premies are not our enemies -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:00:56 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- They sure as hell can be -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:00:44 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- I stand with Jim on this one, including vs Charles -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:54:10 (GMT)

__ __ MW -:- They sure as hell can be -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:10:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- it IS a war. a war of reality and our lives. -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:33:19 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Your last sentence said it all, Jim -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:54:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Yeah, I still care deeply about some premies, but -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:12:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- But! Yes quite a few buts. -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:25:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ such -:- and I'll have Assam tea with crumpets! (nt -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:32:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You're up late. I'm off to bed . Sweet dreams. NT -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:48:32 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- The Ubiquity of Human Folly -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:24:57 (GMT)

__ Tim G -:- Thanx Pat., Good Post nt -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:22:04 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Yes, thanks -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:20:31 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- PS: And some comic relief. -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:21:25 (GMT)

__ __ MK -:- I knew you'd suck me in again Mr C....OT -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:13:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- I don't talk to dish-drainful people -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:05:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ MK -:- And I NEVER talk to distrustful people -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 11:12:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Trust -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 18:31:09 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Pat -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 15:06:52 (GMT)

it-Is-so -:- update -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:13:10 (GMT)

__ It-Is-so -:- Poll -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 12:56:56 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- Salam, my dear -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:32:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Which tells you -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 16:18:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- I just looked at it again -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 16:55:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I just looked at it again -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 18:18:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- scroll down a bit - poll's in link box on left -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 18:37:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Anna (ot) -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 19:32:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Thanks, Anna (ot) -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 03:59:37 (GMT)

__ __ Stonor -:- I had no idea people are so interested in ducks! -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:19:24 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- GREAT WORK Salam -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:03:47 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- I'll try to send the file -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:57:45 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- Thanks -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:02:26 (GMT)

__ cq -:- SERIOUS error of judgement there, Salam -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:20:38 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- SERIOUS error of judgement there, Salam -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:05:25 (GMT)

__ it-Is-so -:- woops -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:14:36 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Holy Cow, Salam! What's with the DHTML? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:04:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ salam -:- Holy Cow, Salam! What's with the DHTML? -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 07:29:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Holy Cow, Salam! What's with the CG/MW? -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:29:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Holy Cow, Salam! What's with the CG/MW? -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 10:45:41 (GMT)

SuchaBanana -:- aspire:we're talking about simplicity,Charles+Pia! -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:19:09 (GMT)

__ such -:- FA! typo/syntax corrections thanks,P+L -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:30:09 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- Excellent post, Such (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:01:31 (GMT)

__ bill burke -:- Prestigious law firm (an oxymoron?) -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:18:37 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- hey, some of my beast fiends are lawyers! -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:16:01 (GMT)

Peter Howie -:- Reminiscing after reading Charles opener. -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:42:24 (GMT)

__ MW -:- Reminiscing after reading Charles opener. -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:23:52 (GMT)

__ __ Peter Howie -:- Please read about the major public -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:16:32 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Mr Williams, about your alias... -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:50:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Ditto Nige. Never liked anybody who used Mister -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:35:42 (GMT)

__ CW -:- Reminiscing on what really happened! -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 09:20:44 (GMT)

__ __ Peter Howie -:- Reminiscing on what really happened! -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:23:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Reminiscing on what really happened! -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 15:21:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- What really happened and surrender -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 22:59:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- What really happened , Evolution -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 00:41:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- What really happened , Evolution -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 11:17:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- What really happened , Evolution -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 13:10:17 (GMT)

__ __ Rufus Higginbottom -:- 'eh up lad!! -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:01:55 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- ***THIS IS SO FUCKING COWARDLY, CAT*** -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:48:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ CW -:- And your modus operandi is totally transparent! -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:03:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- And your modus operandi is totally transparent! -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:36:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Unlike yours? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:05:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- How could you know? -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:14:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You've gone too far, Catweasel -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:52:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- You've gone too far, Stanley!!!! -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 12:26:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Dr Livingstone, I presume? -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 18:40:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- No, Oliver Hardy, Stanley! -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:18:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I'm just Protean, Pussy -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 05:41:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- The familiar stuff may be all made up Jim n/t -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:43:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Yes, we all acted like idiots at times -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:49:35 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- Reminiscing after reading Charles opener. -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:39:17 (GMT)

__ __ bill-well, he is NOT 38, -:- more like 42+, thin, short, gay, a twin, from -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 05:37:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- His claims about himself are funny and revealing -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 06:25:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- His claims about himself are funny and revealing -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 21:19:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- 2 languages-premie and legalese-both dishonest -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 12:27:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- those posts are around bill on AG -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 05:19:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ bill-yeah, I also thought -:- they might be on 'MAIN' FA's list..:)..nt -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:14:26 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- Premies, there's nothing to be afraid of here -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:40:22 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Thanks, Dave. I don't hate His Holeyness or PWKs -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:05:47 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- they called this site a hate site -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:03:15 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Selene...Interesting, all the anger backlash... -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:28:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- 'if you don't like it, just walk' inaccurate -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:31:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- just so long as it's the SAHARA desert -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:36:08 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Laughing at peoples' Sacred Cows is hate? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:12:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ CD -:- Cows after you -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 05:55:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- You're right, Chris. Slap accepted. -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:43:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- oooo did the choir boys do that? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:14:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sonny G -:- Is the kitchen getting too hot? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:58:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Who cares what the cybercommunity thinks? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:27:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Did anyone cum? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:42:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sonny G -:- fair enough -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:41:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- a dozen perhaps -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:54:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Maharaji Rocks is a password protected site, huh? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:33:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- hey PatC we were . like . so synchronized -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:35:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Selene, so synchronized - yikes! -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:42:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ SelenieJi -:- yourselves? last I checked -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:31:52 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Elk Update -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:15:48 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- I know Bruce. I wonder if he knows his poem -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:27:45 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Haha Pay Someone For A Poem? -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 16:52:33 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Apology -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:25:50 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- Well,there goes my neighborhood! Holi schmoli!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:21:22 (GMT)

__ such -:- http://www.swaminarayan.org/ -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:15:05 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- something I learned from my neighborhood -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:45:12 (GMT)

Joe -:- Charles, the highly educated kind, man -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:13:18 (GMT)

cq -:- Good grief. I cannot beleive this -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:48:08 (GMT)

__ Mary M -:- Onae/Nellie's Watch/GULFSTREAM V -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:22:51 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- How is this connected? -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:44:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mary M -:- Thanks cq -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:22:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- thinking of this forum a 'hate site' is counter- -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:49:38 (GMT)

__ Sandy -:- *SIC 'EM, JIMBO! This is the time and the place!* -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:25:37 (GMT)

__ __ bill-YOU of all people -:- should not use the word US in any context..nt -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:26:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sandy -:- You didn't get it... -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:54:06 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- *SIC 'EM, JIMBO! This is the time and the place!* -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:55:08 (GMT)

__ __ clarence clear -:- Standing on mist -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:41:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sandy -:- Standing on mist -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:40:41 (GMT)

__ clarence clear -:- Good grief. I cannot beleive this -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:19:04 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- Actually, I vote for Mr. Williams -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:38:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Man, am I sick of ''I am a lawyer'' Shit... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:03:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Right on, Cynthia -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:07:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Gina -:- And this one's a chump, a 'practicing' jackass. nt -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:36:31 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- Good grief. I cannot beleive this -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:37:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ clarence clear -:- sorry again cq -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:55:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ clarence clear -:- Good grief. I cannot beleive this -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:53:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ clarenceclear -:- Good grief. enjoying life -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:50:10 (GMT)

Henry -:- A neo-bhajan song for Independence Day! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:21:38 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- I'll drink to that --- n/t -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:10:48 (GMT)

G -:- A link to Lifes Great (sic) -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:50:05 (GMT)

Lurker #27 -:- Excerpts from the 1979 Mishler radio interview -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 13:39:45 (GMT)

__ Marshall -:- Was Mishler murdered, or what? -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:03:14 (GMT)

__ __ Mr. Mind -:- I heard Joan Aptor tried to seduce him. (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 10:01:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Ewww, Gross! NT -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:50:44 (GMT)

__ __ Original Richard -:- Once and for all - it was an accident -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:18:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Marshall -:- Who are you? -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:52:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Marshall, are you Marshall/X? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:42:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Marshall -:- Marshall, are you Marshall/X? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:05:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Good to hear from you! -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:03:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard (original) -:- Who are you? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:52:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Marshall-you took the advice too harshly -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:41:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Check the archives -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:59:51 (GMT)

Abi -:- Pathologizing the victims -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 11:53:20 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Please forgive me Abi for posting this -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:21:18 (GMT)

__ __ Abi -:- Thanks Pat -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:30:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks Abi. Saw it quite a while ago but hesitated -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:27:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- PS: Another post from LG - I couldn't resist -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:47:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- PS: Another post from LG - I couldn't resist -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:24:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Abi I posted that so you could see how deranged -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:22:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Oh well... -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 10:51:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Abi, this is the typical response of ignorance... -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 21:07:37 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- I don't think he's a decent man -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:44:51 (GMT)

__ __ Original Richard -:- ATTENTION: 'Richard' in this thread is not me -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:11:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- You are always my original postie! love f----n/t -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 05:11:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Classic Richard -:- Oh yes, I love it when you call me Postie! /nt -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:33:58 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Abi, you are being disingenuous -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:37:32 (GMT)

__ __ Susan -:- Ugliness -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:33:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- Ugliness -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:48:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard2 -:- Ugliness -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:41:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- I need your legal advice Richard -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 09:19:11 (GMT)

__ __ Abi -:- sincerity -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:21:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard2 -:- sincerity -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:16:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ me -:- sincerity -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:17:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard2 -:- sincerity -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:13:49 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- FA - enough is enough. Please... -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:58:03 (GMT)

__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Richard - you are the dregs of mankind -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:37:12 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Richard (2) your mind is truly fucking ugly. -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:48:23 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- FA: We can always call him DICK!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:01:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard2 -:- FA: We can always call him DICK!!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:46:00 (GMT)

__ __ Forum Admin -:- Use of names on this forum -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:41:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ CD -:- Use of this forum -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:55:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Courts and police stations -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:22:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Courts and police stations -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:19:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- criminal v. civil -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:28:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- there's a problem with that, CD -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:21:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks Gerry. that's reality. (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:35:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard 2 -:- Amen!!! nt -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:01:44 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Richard #2, You Don't Know the Facts... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:06:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard 2 -:- The facts seem to be in the eye of the beholder -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:44:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Richard 2 - The Crux of the Matter.... -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:14:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Facts are in the eye of the beholder--yikes!!! -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:13:27 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- Well, Richard, should victims of sexual abuse -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:24:13 (GMT)

__ __ Original Richard -:- Please note: 'Richard' in this thread is not me -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:07:15 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Richard, how dare you! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:54:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard2 -:- Relax Way! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:00:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ clarence clear -:- you are not listening Richard2 -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:00:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard2 -:- No, you are not listening -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:19:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- No, you are deliberately not seeing -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:02:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- You are not listening -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:25:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Time to act the rhetoric -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:12:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Time to act the rhetoric, Thank you Peter n/t -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:49:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ clarence clear -:- Richard2 re not listening -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:31:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Be Honest Richard2! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:58:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve M -:- Excellent post Cynthia - best wishes S nt -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:00:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Way -:- Response to Relax Way! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:22:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard2 -:- Response to Relax Way! -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:04:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Your threats -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 05:16:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- And another thing, Richard 2 -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:42:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- Good grief man, - banned for presenting an ... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:13:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Way -:- Read Richard's post again, cq -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:32:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I did, I still stand by my point. -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:26:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Right on, cq (nt) -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:31:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- GOOD POST and GOOD point cq ---- n/t -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:06:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- For the record, cq, I agree (nt) -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:45:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ clarence clear -:- Read Richard's post again, -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:06:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- ATTENTION FA: The ''Richard'' posting in this -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:01:37 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Desperate attempts are being made -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 13:14:44 (GMT)

__ clarence clear -:- Pathologizing the victims -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 12:18:33 (GMT)

__ __ CD -:- path to a long winding road -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:53:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ clarence clear -:- re damage -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:48:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ CD -:- re damage -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 07:52:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- WHAT DAMAGE? -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:29:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ CD -:- WHAT DAMAGE? -:- Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 07:49:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Sorry CD, I miss-read your post... -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 17:28:48 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- I am tired of being branded a hate group too. -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:48:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- I don't hate you Richard -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:00:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Peter Howie -:- I am tired of being branded a hate group too. -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:27:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ clarence clear -:- I am tired of being branded reply to Richard -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:26:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- clarence clear, you're right... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:43:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ clarence clear -:- re you're right... -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:14:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Richard2 is a troll (internet slang) -:- Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:01:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ clarence clear -:- I am tired of being branded reply to Richard -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:10:09 (GMT)

__ __ Mercedes -:- Pathologizing the victims -:- Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 14:58:45 (GMT)

Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:00:56 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Premies are not our enemies Message:

FV was a bit frenzied yesterday - fired up in reaction to premies' new websites in defense of Rev Rawat. When passions are stirred it is easy to forget that premies are not our enemies. In fact I don't even regard Rawat as my enemy. He too was a premie and was conditioned by his father's Hindu gurujism BS. The fact that he also is an ignorant and greedy little man makes him particularly unlikeable but the real enemy still is and always will be ignorance. The info on EPO is a huge resource to get rid of that ignorance and I feel that my job here is to help people see their ignorance of the workings of gurujism and share what I have learned about it. Hopefully one day Rawat will also see the error of his ways and make amends or at least confess his ignorance and oinkishness. I am pleased that the thread about Charles' personal details has been removed. The fact that he has published an ANONYMOUS website says far more about his embarassment at being in a footkissing cult than exposing him. In fact exposing him will only turn him into a martyr. I am hoping that we can return to deconstructing gurujism and being proactive in our efforts to fight ignorance rather than getting our tits in a tangle in reaction to the socalled premie backlash. If we go about our business of exposing Hinduism and particularly gurujism and Maharajism in a sane and erudite manner we will eventually win. EV is a silly Hindu footkissing cult and an afront to democratic western principles. Let's remember our principles and leave the name-calling to premies. If they wish to see democratic criticism as hatred that is their prerogative. And yes I am a member of the Hate Club. I hate ignorance, stupidity, lies, secrecy and greed.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:00:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: PatC Subject: They sure as hell can be Message:

Anyone who calls me a liar when I recount our common past, when all along it's that person who's lying and not me, is my enemy. Anyone who stands between me and the truth and shields those who've wrong me from accountability is my enemy. Anyone who disputes my integrity, sincerity and truthfulness in order to maintain his own false sense of reality is my enemy. Need I go on? I've got friends, Pat. I know what that's like. And I guess I've had a few enemies as well. I know what that's like too. Premies are a lot more like my enemies than my friends. Most of the ones we encounter online in any event.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:54:10 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Jim Subject: I stand with Jim on this one, including vs Charles Message:

surprised? don't be. if Jim hadn't said it, I would have.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:10:46 (GMT) From: MW Email: None To: Jim Subject: They sure as hell can be Message:

Enemies? Spooky. This is not a war, although in your fervor and apparent anger, it probably feels that way to you. Things were culty. The core was the same. Now, IMO, things aren't culty, and the core is the same. Where we diverge is that you think the core is some Hindu bullshit, and I am clear that it's the species function, hard-wired into humans. Knowledge and the thirst for it, that is. If you were hurt or fucked up by Hindu trappings, promises unkept, perceived lack of respect, or whatever, then you have to deal with it in the way that's best for you. If this site is your way, then you have to go for it. That's fine with me, although I'm naturally pissed off when you disparage and insult someone I love; but there will always be gossip, there will always be anger & blame, there will always be opposition to the master. Let it come.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:33:19 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: MW Subject: it IS a war. a war of reality and our lives. Message:

please read the post by Way, about the premie belief system, for reference, before continuing. you say maharaji is someone you 'love'. I submit that the 'love' you feel for him is no more genuine than the 'love' you have for a rock star, or a TV star, or a movie star. he doesn't know you personally. He has no wish to know you personally. He goes to great lengths to establish security protocols so that you can not get to him personally when you feel like it. If you were to try to get near him, it would be seen as stalking, an obsession, a mental illness, a delusion, and a crime againt him as an individual. it is not real. it is something you have whipped up and fed and kept alive from your side, an imaginary relationship, not experienced on the other side by him. it is unrequited. you just can't face it yet. you are not defending him. you are defending your fantasy about him. and as with rock stars, it profits him to imflame it and tease it and stoke it and play to you as IF there was something between you, because that's what pays the bills and makes a living for him. if all the fans dry up, it's over. he'd have to go out and get a job, god forbid. so he's happy to put on a great show for you and encourage your 'love', but only so long as it's controlled and kept on a stage, at a safe distance, with plenty of barriers in between. If he actually had to face you alone like that, he'd be frantic to get away from you. what you don't understand or realize, is that it is YOU GUYS--the trapped PREMIES, whom we are defending, here. Starting with ourselves--because we were the premies, ourselves, first--that's what I mean when I say it is about reality and our lives. it's personal. It starts with us. -and then expanding, to reach you, too, who are still stuck where we used to be, the same way we used to be. Scenarios: Two friends get addicted together and slide down the slippery slope to the gutter. One finally decides to stand up and walk away and get clean and sober. S/he goes back, one day, to see if their old friend is still there. They are. Do you really think the clean one is gonna be happy to let the sick one just rot down there? Do you think hate is really their motive for going back to see? Two childhood girlfriends grow up together, get married to their childhood sweethearts, start families. One's husband gradually becomes an alcoholic. She stays, she suffers, she blames herself for the state of things. The other's husband becomes an alcoholic, starts taking out his abuse on her. Difference is, she walks. Takes the kids, goes to a safehouse, gets him arrested and into mandatory treatment. Gets herself training to help other women with it. She sees her old friend at the market one day. Bruised, black and blue, dark circles under the eyes, kids look terrified and clingy. They talk. Do you really think her outreach to her friend is motivated by hate? So you really think the help she will offer her friend, to get free, and back in charge of her safety, her sanity, her life--will be hate filled? Both friends may deny they have a problem, might insist on staying the way they are, where they are, might not want their saner friends help just then. but the dynamic is obvious to everyone else that's watching. the clean friend can only offer and talk from their own life experience. the friend who's at the bottom can only get worse and end up dead, or come to their senses, and realize what's become of them, and that they have to get out of it, if they are going to ever get their life back in time to live it as it was supposed to be. so is the motive hate? or something else? who's healthy and sane and clean? and who's ill and suffering in denial?

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:54:19 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: Your last sentence said it all, Jim Message:

Jim said: ''Premies are a lot more like my enemies than my friends. Most of the ones we encounter online in any event.'' I take all your points and understand and agree with them to an extent. I am glad you qualified it with saying that it fits the ones we meet online. These have turned themselves into our enemies by reacting to us and attacking us but they really are not typical of the premies I know. They seem mostly to be the jihad fanatics or deranged loosers. The majority of premies are sincere, muddled and ignorant of the facts and not in the least bit as hatefilled as the ones we encounter online.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:12:18 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: PatC Subject: Yeah, I still care deeply about some premies, but Message:

Yeah, I still care deeply about some premies, but/and - like Jim said - when some fanatic online newer premies call the historical factual truth[s] lies, and then maliciously, mockingly and fallaciously defame the victims of cult rape, suicide, [attempted] murder, vehicular manslaughter, perjury, extortion, manipulations, abuses, subterfuge, broken families, poverty, emotional scars and so forth - it certainly is enough to make one's blood boil. That having been stated, I have no wish to be angry; it only makes me feel bad. I would almost feel embarrassed about what I wrote recently about Charles Glasser's site, were it not for the fact that what he posted were insidious falsehoods premised on his own cult fanaticism and obvious ignorance of the past -- and present. It's a clear pattern to me, actually. Look at the timing of Pia and Charles' sites. EVI and m. won't attack EPO directly - but rather nebulously; they don't want to draw attention to this site. However, the Master's 'slaves' [i.e. Hans Yog Prakash - m's dada] are playing by orchestrated proxy. You know the cult pattern by now; premies doing m's dirty work. Later, he can disavow it and blame it on them, if problems arise. recognizing patterns, behaviors, cult m.o. ... I still have lots of love for my ol' premie friends, in spite of the fact they weren't ever privy to the bad m. cult stuff some of us know about and/or experienced, and they won't take a step back from being puppets on m's stage and look at the truth/facts more objectively. They never walked a mile in our shoes, so they haven't got a clue. Or, they are too psychologically codependent upon miragey and brainwashed from years of cult indoctrination to even see the contradictions, deceptions, lies, misrepresentations; their faculties of objective reasoning on this subject have been impaired. Who's to blame them? Except when they publicly make ignorant and malicious attacks which run contrary to the historical, documented and eyewitness facts which have been presented on this website. I mean, we were both premies for many many years [about 30] - definitely longer than most of them. Some of these nouveau 'defenders of the faith' simply don't know the facts -- which will set them FREE, too. So, Premies, throw down the guru crutches and stand on your own 2 feet. Rawatism = Master/servants, and always remember that 'the servant is the Master's dog', wrote Shri Hans Rawat. Take off the dog collars, equal human beings. Guru is no higher, more aware, or better than you. In fact, by his own conduct and gross addiction to materialist maya he has forfeited any legitimate claim to anything in the way of spiritual mastery - if there be such a thing. Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:25:21 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: But! Yes quite a few buts. Message:

I'm not sure if CG is a high-holy church lady or what his position in Ev is. My hunch is that he is a lower-echelon Church-lady who is trying to be a star. I won't blame him until I know his status in the cult. Same goes for Pia. If it transpires that it is a conspiracy then I'll have their balls for breakfast. However I do hold certain premies to blame such as the Joan Apter (who weeps and schmaltzes on DVD for You Know Who) and Glen Whitewash Whittaker (who wrote the lies on EV.) That is why I am collecting their names. I intend to make them squirm for their complicity in this undemocratic and primitive cult.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:32:58 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: PatC Subject: and I'll have Assam tea with crumpets! (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:48:32 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: such Subject: You're up late. I'm off to bed . Sweet dreams. NT Message:

j

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:24:57 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: PatC Subject: The Ubiquity of Human Folly Message:

Thas right, PatC. Thanks for the Big Picture. The other day Suchabanana posted a link to a different Maharaji cult that was moving into his neighborhood. I didn't have time to browse the site, but, then, I didn't have to. It looked mind-numbingly similar in its principles to all the other Hindu cults, including Prem Pal's. (Not just to pick on Hinduism, though. Christianity has spawned many of the most twisted sects. I have a soft spot for Buddhism, but they have their cults, too, like Perfect master Chiang Mai and Japan's Aum Shinriko...where Asahara's child is now in charge, I believe.) Two things distinguish DLM/EV from a lot of its guru-worshipping cousin cults: its once-upon-a-time popularity/notoriety in the West, and it predeliction for periodically covering its tracks - denying its theological roots and trying to pass itself off as a benign self-knowledge meditation path. (TM shares these, I guess, as do a few others to some extent.) So let's keep on taking potshots at the Man and His $Mission$. Premies were we once, so they can hardly be the enemy!

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:22:04 (GMT) From: Tim G Email: None To: PatC Subject: Thanx Pat., Good Post nt Message:

Yipee

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:20:31 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Pat Subject: Yes, thanks Message:

Your voice of reconciliation is a good one to have here.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:21:25 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: all Subject: PS: And some comic relief. Message:

From a site which analyses baby names: The name of Maharaji has given you an appreciation for many beautiful and refined aspects of life--music and art, literature, drama--and the outdoors, where you find much peace and relaxation, but it creates a far too sensitive nature. You sense and feel much that you do not understand, and sometimes you are alarmed at your thoughts and wonder about their origin. You rarely experience the tranquility that comes with stability of thinking or emotional control. At times, you are very inspired, desiring to be with people and to entertain others as the 'life of the party,' while at other times you are aloof and choose to remove yourself entirely from association. You crave understanding and affection but your intensity of desire and your self-consciousness prevent you from finding the happiness you desire. You have suffered many disappointments and misunderstandings because of your inability to express your inner thoughts. And this Maharaji only charges $1,000 for a lifetime membership. Doctor Maharaji

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:13:49 (GMT) From: MK Email: None To: PatC Subject: I knew you'd suck me in again Mr C....OT Message:

It's the self depreciating humour that does it. And the ability to take a little tongue in cheek social'observation' with remarkable agility. I was talking about myself of course otherwise how would we see anything in anyone else. Room full of mirrors. That's how we operate here to some extent. Of course we enjoy being appreciated. I certainly do. The word thing is interesting and your inciteful comments proved my point, it would have been excellent if you'd said that stuff to me in the first place! Those eight names/labels for what is the smorgasbord of human consciousness are stimulating to look at and wonder about I thought to myself...'which one of those am I with right now?' Answer, all of them I guess. Pat I'm not saying anything like 'words are meaningless because M says 'follow only the heart'. I love words, especially as a communications tool. MY agebda is jsut like yours Pat, to have a decent, meaningful discourse about L.U.E. without ANY judgement about what the person's personal beliefs are. One has to be honest with cyberpals and they will know and feel it when you are. We open up and a warmth develops that gels with a feeling of satisfaction - I am connecting with someone and that feels good, the common ground is where the sun shines. So like you, I come here for the people, there are posters here (won't embarrass them by doing a roll call) who I respect as people, I would see them socially if possible, others I wouldn't. It's like a bloody amazing cocktail party and we're all staggering around bumping into people saying 'Hi, how are ya?' Your summary of my 'PRESENTATION' is both colourful and offensive (ouch). One of the annoying things I guess, is that I'm not presenting anything but what pops up at the time, only here for the warm breeze. These days I don't enter a forum unless I'm ready to love people and NOT play games. It's a sincere commitment to enter with (ok, cornball) love. People think that love accepts anything shoved before it, but no, love has a big and arrogant a kick as anything else, anger just isn't the default program right? We all can tell who's in a sharp, bright, alive, slightly out there headspace whether they're being funny or obnoxious, only need to look at Jim to see that. Cripes, what's the guy on, good Canadian lsd? His energy to be able to produce dozens of mostly funny, sharp, interesting and (crouch) obnoxious posts, is astounding. The guy must send thirty a day. I start to fry after a few hours and walk away cursing that I am addicted to cyberspace and that I must immediately embark on a major gardening project. My gardening has become like my internetwork, precise, sharp, sincere and as best as can be done with the time and implements at hand and abandoned as soon as I allow myself a guilt free rush back to the beast to strap myself in for another session. I propose someone start a cyberaddicts forum where we can discuss ways to overcome our obsession to boot up, rev the engine and pretend we're slung on the back of a Harley in Easy Rider country again. More of us are realising and honestly admitting that it is taking over opur life too much and we wish surfing to abate but can't leave because of the wealth of energy flying around there. We gotta go back home more! So Mr Hoity-toity, keep vibing and please ease up on us poor and sensitive gugdi gudji toegobblers, after all we are only your old and much beloved BROTHERS AND SISTERS! Gudgieji caused another accident today, I was in the garden digging and this voice from deep within inside said..'Don't YOU REALIZE how lucky you are to be breathing?' Yes, I thought, descending into an immediate spiritual trance. The earth on the shovel overbalanced and the spade fell on my foot, Yik, I reached real quick into Holy third tech and hopped around the garden going gudjigudgi gaga godddammitt! I left the real gugugji absolutely flying last April, boy that is some greeeting. Fuck knows what goes on and why it happens, I'm totally ignorant about it and it feels like the most honest thing I can say. Looking at M and his life, past present and probably future plans, you'd never imagine in a million years that handing something 'within' to him in the passing could result in a seriously profound change in headspace. He is so annoying and confronting on so many levels, figure it out? I think when one treats one's lover with the same respect, openness and love then darshan can be had with them too, they are full of love and beauty. What's the diff, the letting go to bliss machine is ours in the bedroom too. Sorry, this is sounding dangerously like the old preachy I know something special rave. Or the 'see, M is just like anyone else' crap. Had the ganga tea tonight and yes it sends my tongue flapping away, the subtle wellbeing of thc is greatly undervalued I'd say. Oh oh, here comes the 'drugs are king rave.....got to run....and slow it down a peg... take care Pat, MK

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:05:19 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: MK Subject: I don't talk to dish-drainful people Message:

''Self-depreciating humor?'' I hope not. Self-depracating - yes. But the only thing about me that is depreciating is my real estate. Thanks, Marolyn. I think one of the reasons that I come across to you as being moody and changeable (as you accused me) is that I really am. It's because I'm constantly learning. That means I realize when I have been wrong and make mistakes. Anyone who knows me well knows that I put truth before pride. Now do you think we can get Mr R to do the same and come right out and say sorry he made some whoppers with the guru greater than god shit, rotting vegetables and breaking into a thousand pieces if you stopped practicing SS&M and all the other superstitious Hindu nonsense that he has since ''evolved'' from into the new ''friend of premies?'' Will we ever hear him say that K is simple gyanyoga mental health techs that Kabiri bhakti-gurus turned into a revivalist religion and that there is nothing mystical or magical about them? Will he ever apologise for not having stood up to Jagdeo when he first heard about the pedophilia 20 years ago? I hope so. I personally know several practicing and non-practicing premies (not exes) who would have a cloud lifted from their lives if he just said he isn't greater than god and they won't rot like veggies. ''Evolution'' from god to imaginary ''friend'' on DISH satellite is fine if you apologise for those you hurt while you were learning and making mistakes especially if those mistakes happened to consist of asking for total surrender to guru as god - to give ALL ones love and trust with the heart of a child. That is not small potatoes. I hope you are here to learn and not play games. I still don't completely trust you. And I do believe in trust. I'm not some weird twisted guru-worshiper who only trusts their imaginary friend but holds back from others as most of the PWKs that I know do - which is why there are no new aspirants - PWKS are not open to loving others except to ''propagate'' to them. I preferred the early days when Mahatma Gyanyoganand could say things like ''Peace of mind is when you love everybody equally'' to the modern days of love the ''executive friend of EV'' on your TV and fuck the community. I hope I'm not being too hard on you. Tell me if it hurts and I'll stop. But I think you're a tough cookie or is that hash brownie?

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 11:12:15 (GMT) From: MK Email: None To: PatC Subject: And I NEVER talk to distrustful people Message:

You still don't trust me? Oh golly gosh god almighty, well there goes my weekend. No, you're quite right Pat. Always keep a little distance between yourself and a skilled warrior with a sharp sword. I know why you're wary. You only trust people on your own custom made terms. But what's with all this Indian crap shyte you continously sprout at everyone? Hey man, when I was in India you wouldn't believe the endless stuff I heard about GANGA. Just like all your ranting I listened to every didactic, religious, philosophical, moral, spiritual, ANALytical explanation of the damn herb and why this and why that. That's India brother. In the West we treat it with a little more balance and simplicity like: Grow, harvest, cure, smoke, enjoy. You think Knowledge is any different? No of course you don't, you overdescriptive seer of quasi intellectual visions! What words can describe the experience of being totally shitfaced - and really enjoying it? No, don't try please, this is getting tedious, I'll catch you later, MK the footfondler

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 18:31:09 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: MK Subject: Trust Message:

Yes, Marolyn, of course I only trust people on my ''custom-made terms'' as you put it so well. But I probably used that word inaccurately to describe my few reservations about you. I do not think that you are untrustworthy. I probably simply meant that a) I don't really know you yet and b) I'm not sure what you are looking for here. Actually I trust everybody until they show me that they are not trustworthy. But what the hell has all that ganga stuff got to do with M apologizing for his mistakes? I don't think he deliberately mislead people with his guru spchiel 30 years ago. It was just ordinary old Hindu hyperbole which he had been force-fed by his pa anyway. It was not a crime but a mistake and he has ''evolved.'' But he doesn't make himself look good by blaming the mahatmas for it. You and I would have nothing to argue about if he came straight out and said he has learned and that he was mistaken when he first came to the west and that he has adapted his rhetoric to western culture but that his message is still the same: ''Never doubt the purity of the Master.'' I would say to you ''have fun you old foot-fethist - whatever cranks your engine.'' And you would smirk superiorly at me and tell me that I didn't know what I was missing. And we would agree to disagree. I just think it would be easier and cleaner to admit mistakes than rewrite history. Anyway I don't really care one way or the other. He's doing his thing and I'm doing mine. I'm not into convincing you about anything and don't ever expect any replies anyway. We'll never see eye to eye. I'm a moralist and you aren't.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 15:06:52 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: PatC Subject: Thanks, Pat Message:

You are a voice of reason and compassion here and I appreciate what you wrote above--both posts. I don't consider premies to be the enemy, yet premies have targeted us as their enemy. I think it's hilarious that Charles/Pia, et al have branded us as a ''hate group'' and full of mental defects. Yet I am feeling their hate and anger at us. I will never ignore any mean and vile attacks on Abi, Susan and the other survivors of Jagdeo. NEVER! I keep saying that the backlash is good. I expect more of what happened yesterday; it'll be interesting to see how this evolves!!! Love, Cynthia, (I must get offline and continue packing!!!) Bye

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:13:10 (GMT) From: it-Is-so Email: it_is_soau@yahoo.com To: Everyone Subject: update Message:

it-IS-so Have corrected some of the speeelling mistakes thanks to the help of many people. Also added more stuff. There things missing, like post that were sent to Pia and were not published by here. Please e-mail me your letters [to Piad, and Mr Charles]directly so I can add them. Still more to be done, but life sucks. Have fun it-IS-so and the ex-premie rapid responce top secret and highly synchronized team reporting from our secret hideout.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 12:56:56 (GMT) From: It-Is-so Email: None To: it-Is-so Subject: Poll Message:

please take the time to visit this link FORUM POLL ta ta

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:32:36 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: It-Is-so Subject: Salam, my dear Message:

I can NEVER make sense out of most of your site. Have you looked at it in both IE and Netscape - and on some monitors of different sizes? That helps a lot. Love, Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 16:18:41 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Katie Subject: Which tells you Message:

How confused am I, yar? I actually tried it on IE 5, 800x600 and over and it goes well. I know from people that have Netscape such as the person next in the thread that it works on Netscape and Mac. Ihavene't [wot] tried it on larger monitors cause I ain't got non. What's that blue doing there [who did that?]. There are some links that are confused too. But am doing it as I go. The only way to test it is to hoste it [for nothing] and ask people to tell my what they want. The site grows with many mums and dads instead of one boofhead like me. Anyway what your complain me dear?

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 16:55:23 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Salam Subject: I just looked at it again Message:

and it looks good. Am injured now. The pictures of fatty need to be retouched, but I think the way they are presented makes him look very Indian,wad u tink?

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 18:18:00 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Salam Subject: I just looked at it again Message:

Salam, one thing I have trouble with is your word wrap. I think you need to left justify your columns - although it looks like you have left justified SOME of them. Also, I don't get anything that resembles a poll on your poll page. Sorry you are injured... Love, Katie

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 18:37:35 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Katie Subject: scroll down a bit - poll's in link box on left Message:

I think Salam's asleep and I bet you wish you were! Love to you and Brian

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 19:32:32 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Thanks, Anna (ot) Message:

This sucks - I will write to you later...

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 03:59:37 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thanks, Anna (ot) Message:

what resolution are you using, 400x600? I will change the positon of the poll. The things I do.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:19:24 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: It-Is-so Subject: I had no idea people are so interested in ducks! Message:

Quack quack! Quack quack! Quack quack! Quack quack quack quack quack! Quacklishji XXX

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:03:47 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: it-Is-so Subject: GREAT WORK Salam Message:

Just took another look. Like your under construction graphic. cheerio, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:57:45 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: it-Is-so Subject: I'll try to send the file Message:

Salam: I'll try to send the corrected 'Who is Guru Maharaji' file tonight. Even if I haven't gone over my edits for a 3rd time, it'll still be a little better because the typos will be mostly gone. If I find any more I can always resend the file. But I still think you need to say who wrote that piece of trash, at the very beginning! The fact that THEY wrote it is a very significant piece of evidence, whether it came from EV press packets, the soundtrack of a movie, or whatever. (Such as: from And It is Divine, issue blah, or from Divine Light Mission press packet, dated blah, something to credit the author.) Those keys to the cities and statements by the politicians are especially hillarious. When I first received K in 1973, he was going around the cities collecting those accolades. Of course he wasn't expecting the cream pie salute in Detroit. Good job. I think most of us want our names on there, and told you so, and I think you've asked several times. peace and love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:02:26 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Thanks Message:

Am thinking of a better way to work around me typos. Actually more than one. The first is to write better inglich. Naaah. second, I will tell you in e-mail. I have more stuff to put, but I haven't got the time, been hoocked to f5 today. Heelllppp me.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:20:38 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: it-Is-so Subject: SERIOUS error of judgement there, Salam Message:

If you're going to use the names of everyone who posts here on a scrolling banner that appears to indicate that we are the authors of what's on your site, there are three things I want to say to you. 1. It would have been courteous to AT LEAST ASK PERMISSION FIRST. 2. If you insist on using my name AT LEAST GET IT RIGHT, I am NOT Christopher Gillies Quartus, my full name is Christopher Quartus Giles. 3. Please remove my name from your site.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:05:25 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: cq Subject: SERIOUS error of judgement there, Salam Message:

you are the first person that complained. I had it as CQ only, but someone gave it to me the way it appears. anyone wants their name removed?

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:14:36 (GMT) From: it-Is-so Email: None To: it-Is-so Subject: woops Message:

Sorry Mr. Charles, you just have to wait for a while. I hope your lawyer skills will improve by then.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:04:35 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: it-Is-so Subject: Holy Cow, Salam! What's with the DHTML? Message:

It looks great, Salam. Much better than Rawatsucks although that was hilarious.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 07:29:15 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: PatC Subject: Holy Cow, Salam! What's with the DHTML? Message:

I thought a bit of fancy work was in order seeing that EV loves to Flash.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:29:09 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: salam Subject: Holy Cow, Salam! What's with the CG/MW? Message:

Do you think Charles is MW? A hunch? It is obvious that ''he who should not be named on FV'' is Nice Guy on Lifes Great. The site looks great but I want my name in neon lights please.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 10:45:41 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: PatC Subject: Holy Cow, Salam! What's with the CG/MW? Message:

I thought that was clear. Mr charles the unmentionable is posting here [Mr. William] and [Nice Guy]. p.s. since this is a low thread and the FA may miss it, Anyone know how Mr. Charles is. Shhh. Keep it quite. What a bloody CG/MW? Neon lights? sheesh.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:19:09 (GMT) From: SuchaBanana Email: None To: Everyone Subject: aspire:we're talking about simplicity,Charles+Pia! Message:

I just saw the latest brochure for a Visions video: 'aspire: we're talking about simplicity of existence...' -- 'a consistent subject of Maharaji's talks is the human being's thirst to find contentment within' yeah, like, we're talking about the living proof role model Master of 'simplicity of existence': 28,000 sq ft Malibu mansion + estate $40,000,000 Gulfstream jet $7 million yacht Bell helicopter glider Rolls Royce Ferraris Mercedes Rolex Bijan Armani Lamborghini Aston Martin G-4 Lear jet Falcon jet Boeing 707 freebie premie corporation ownership shares etc. etc. etc., all made possible by the startup money and continued support of slave labor from the premie servant-dogs 'The servant is the Master's dog' - quote from maha's dada in the servant/slave chapter of Hans Yog Prakash. On his illogical pro-guru/slave propaganda website, Charles the self-glorifying law-whore premie puppy states that m. could have gotten rich marketing the kn. Duh, chuckie - he did, but doing it falsely and deviously - instead of upfront. It's called organized crime - the institutionalized diversion of church funds and tax evasion + criminal felonies and coverups. Also, if people hadn't fallen for the secrecy of the techs trick at initiation time and the Lord in the flesh/saviour of mankind official public claims made by m and DLM [aka Elan Vital] and its authorized propaganda i.e. 'Who is Guru Maharaj ji?', would m have legitimately made tens of millions of dollars? maybe/but maybe not -- we'll never know, will we?! However, if people hadn't thought they'd suffer the death of 10,000 scorpions or eternal damnation, then almost everyone I knew would have shown their friends the meditation techniques -- and the so-called knowledge would have been spread worldwide lightning fast. NO, instead m and his family hoarded these basic meditation techs and made superhuman representations about him. Then, when people had a lil' experience from the universal ol' yogi techs, this other idolatrous guru garbagio hocus pocus suckered folks, prevented the free spreading of the simple techs, and got people devoting their lives instead directly to miragey and pumping money into the cult coffers for propagation of the self-proclaimed living Lord of the Universe's mission - but that money that was NOT intended for the insatiably greedy Lard's own bulging pockets or addiction to a mega-luxurious lifestyle. Chuckie, you ridiculously dumb premie servant-dog, you weren't even around in the '70s to witness the real scam and how it was set up -- so, shut your stupid ignorant ex post facto face, councilor! The whole setup is a carefully contrived fraud to enrich and empower the Rawat clan. Now, EVI states on the org website that the media focussed obsessively on miragey instead of on his message. Crocodile boohoo wawawawa tears! Duh - the whole focus that Lard control freak pushes is HIM HIM HIM. only through HIM, only by the grace of HIM, the importance of HIM the so-called Master, etc., and He plays down the techniques. That's a Fact, dudes. So, EVI is totally full of BS [you lying lil' slimebags at EV]. Caveat emptor. NO, if these techs were truly given out 'free' -- with NO phased indoctrination to aspirants, NO strings attached, NO secrecy, and NO Masterbaiter phony gurujism baloney, the 4 basic yogic techs themselves would probably have spread freely and very quickly - in spite of m. and his delusions, indulgences, and incompetence, and he wouldn't have gotten obscenely rich riding upon the backs of gullible humans reduced to premie servant-doggies, while telling these same premies that they should become simple, both inwardly [simpletons] and outwardly [renunciants and paupers]. The secrecy of the techs, the cult indoctrination and bhakti voodoo concepts and rituals, and the org and Master blaster's own false representations about himself empowered and suckered tens of thousands of people. Now, that's how he got filthy rich, Charles, you pukey premie puppy lawyer. It's called racketeering, dude -- tax evasion, smuggling, fraud -- you name it, you legal beagle ignoramus. You obviously didn't get That knowledge in your dumb law college. You weren't even there, Charles. So, again, shut your stupid ignoramus dog-face! Why don't you go sell/hock all YOUR belongings and dedicate all your money and just trash your family, home, and career to follow miragey around [as he instructed us], bow down, kiss his smelly feet [as directed], put a bunch of cash in an envelope [as instructed], and lick his leather shoes -- you utter deceived fool. Phlegmies are the Master's Doggies, indeed. Putting a pile of fallacious crap on your website -- Bad doggy! Charlatan Charles and Pathetic Pia are just part of the latest cult revisionism, stonewalling, whitewashing, spin doctoring, deceitful reinvention of historical facts. You poor deluded premie-doggies. Maybe you need some more doggie darshan in order to 'realise the knowledge.' DUH!!! The miragey cult's present strategy: 1)saturate the internet with unsubstantiated gurujism sites to combat and villify the presentation of actual facts by former longtime devotees and cult insiders. Say it ain't so, wa wa boohoo. 2) concoct defensive videos and p.r. explanations to downplay the valid public criticisms worldwide and deter people from investigating the shocking and sordid facts for themselves. 3) use Visions and new aspirant-premie artists to pretend m. and the cult are the political friends of the downtrodden, the environment, etc. Like the 707 was environmentally friendly! 4) portray m. and his personality cult as the victims instead of the predators - this resembles a typical p.r./legal role reversal tactic of any rapist or pedophile's attorneys. Hey Charlie-mutt and EVI, how 'bout that proverbial 'simplicity of existence'? If m. and EVI were actually on-the-level -- instead of practitioners of ritualized 'cheat and deceit', the money trail of every single donation ever made at events and through DLM/EVI would be laid out clearly in reports for all the donors, the governments, and the world to see -- instead of a tangled web. There wouldn't be any shell corporations like SEVA and the diversion of almost all of the funds ever received by the organization registered church and its only minister [not a religion]. simplicity of existence? m. wouldn't be living like a maharajah off the backs of the long-suffering premies. EVI would have actual assets listed, not zero = 0 assets. m. would be a role model for simplicity of existence. m. would not put himself above everyone else. simplicity of existence? m. would travel by commercial flights instead of demanding the mega-luxury jet of the week. m. wouldn't DEMAND Presidential luxury suites at hotels and luxury cars for transportation. m would be a loyal husband. m's extended family wouldn't be living like spoiled rich pigs on the backs of the Master's premie-doggies. Charles, your factual distortions and EV's patent lies make even a longtime yogi angry. What's your day gig, representing securities scam artists and corporate thieves?! Well, that's what you're representing on your website, dude -- a spiritual gangster and international racketeering. simplicity of existence? oh yeah, breathe in, breathe out. So, who needs the extraneous complication of an unnecessary and greedy guru? Duh! The techs are free; pass 'em along, if you want. Forget the zombie Big Brother vids, the boring muzak, stand on your own 2 feet and take off the premie-doggie collars. If there truly is a God and it's within you [right?], why divert your misplaced devotion to an intermediary, anyway? That's utterly stupid. You need simplicity of existence? Then, dump the false baggage of guru-Master and the Indian guru concepts which miragey still spouts in India and spits out as watered-down pablum to naive and brainwashed Westerners. Simplicity of existence? Yeah, enjoy this life, this breath, standing on your own 2 feet. Throw away the false guru crutches and the doggie-premie-servant collars. Anything less would be uncivilized. Ex parte premie. Peace and lentils, j. suchabanana

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:30:09 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: FA Subject: FA! typo/syntax corrections thanks,P+L Message:

1. pumping money into the cult coffers for propagation of the self-proclaimed living Lord of the Universe's mission - but that money that was NOT intended for the insatiably greedy Lard's own bulging pockets or addiction to a mega-luxurious lifestyle. [correction: ...money was NOT intended...] 2. The secrecy of the techs, the cult indoctrination and bhakti voodoo concepts and rituals, and the org and Master blaster's own false representations about himself empowered and suckered tens of thousands of people. [correction: ...own false representations empowered himself and suckered tens of thousands of people.] thank you

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:01:31 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: SuchaBanana Subject: Excellent post, Such (nt) Message:

Really, you cut to the quick in a lot of your points.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:18:37 (GMT) From: bill burke Email: None To: SuchaBanana Subject: Prestigious law firm (an oxymoron?) Message:

'What's your day gig, representing securities scam artists and corporate thieves?' Worse than that Suchie, he is not a partner, and as such is worked to the bone with only the hopes of partnership to stive for. He will not get it of course, he is middle aged already and they want to drain someone of thier full career life blood before they would even consider a candidate. He calls his company 'most prestigious' which is pathetically like 'most supremest' lord in person. He serves 2 organizations that dont give a hoot about him. The law firm and the cult. Both drain him. He no doubt continued to live like a spartan in nyc because he had no money really and college debt must tower over him like the matterhorn. Living in manhatten is a constant reminder of what you do not have. What others DO have, and his coworkers can only feed that drive in him for acceptance that he will never find there. Remember, he is a wisp of a man, and like the little dogs that bark the most, the fenceing and the lawyering lets him fight others with a shot at coming out on top. His inflated bio, is another indicator of insecurity. He fights for the guru as a self proclaimed vast success who is not and never was sullied by any cult style stupidity like the ex's were. Imagine a guy sitting on his chair on some phone books, at his computer typeing furiously at those ex's presenting himself as a new york powerhouse lawyer vast success representing sensible aloof distainful agrieved regular people who benefit from the non lord maha(ultimate) raji(ruler). I would not want to be him! rawat has led this guy way out on a limb. As usual.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:16:01 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: bill burke Subject: hey, some of my beast fiends are lawyers! Message:

Bill: yeah, living like a poor cucaracha in NYC sucked -- it even drove me to the maha. haha! [in retrospect] Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:42:24 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Reminiscing after reading Charles opener. Message:

Hi all, I well remember at satsangs there were a group of people that had legitimate jobs, with legitimate social status and drove good cars and lived and ate well. Often when giving stasang they would use the argument 'Well I earn so and so, and I live in such and such as place, and I drive a great car.' The argument being, exactly like Charles argument, that because I've achieved certain social status then a) I should be listened to more than someone who doesn't have these things and b) This status gives shows that I can have the world as well as a guru and enjoy both. Poor old ashram premies - the closest we could come was to talk about what we gave up - 'I had a house, I had a family, I had a good job...' DUH!!! Anyway Charles is saying some delightfully dubious things. Anyone reading them would get the idea he is saying something like 'My Dad is better then their Dad' or 'My toys are better than theirs' or 'My dick is bigger than theirs'. Some girl frinds of mine would probably say 'It is a dick thing.' Which is reminiscent of how I felt about MJ way back. As I recall the logicians that set up ran Hitlers systems to eradicate the jew, gypsies and intellectually and physically disabled were superbly skilled in their crafts as well. Dumb argument Charles. Cheers Peter Howie

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:23:52 (GMT) From: MW Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Reminiscing after reading Charles opener. Message:

You are a foolish, boorish man, Peter Howie. Hitler, indeed. Get a fucking grip, man. You must be sorely lacking for excitement in your life if you can justify comparing Charles/Maharaji to Goebbels/Hitler. You are WAY out there, my good man. There. My one emotional outburst. It's OK, Peter; I don't condemn you; I've been there myself---said many things that are ill-considered and indefensible and that I'll someday regret. As you were. You whingeing tosser....... :--)

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:16:32 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: MW Subject: Please read about the major public Message:

supporters of Hitler - they were simple people who thought they were doing the right thing. Simple public servants The fact that people act like people did around Hitler simple says that simple human values can be utilised by all manner of people for all manner of ends. I'm not talking about Goebels I'm talking about that other chap - the one the Israelis caught in Argentina or wherever. It is good that you express yourself as you have. No offense taken. It is a rather bold point I was trying to make. It may not have come off or may need to be revisited. Cheers Peter Howie

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:50:01 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: MW Subject: Mr Williams, about your alias... Message:

I'll let others be the judge of the content of your post, ie. whether your critisisms were based on sound argument or spluttering emotional bollocks etc., but regarding your alias, please note: 'MW' is easily mistaken for Moldy Warp (who was here long before your present incarnation). In the interests of clarity could you go back to being Mr Williams. Thanks. Better still, tell us who you are. As Jim says above, it's only fair that one knows who is insulting one. N'est-ce pas?

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:35:42 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Ditto Nige. Never liked anybody who used Mister Message:

I don't see why we have to put up with ANY anonymous premies. Full stop!

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 09:20:44 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Reminiscing on what really happened! Message:

Speaking from a personal knowledge of your postion at the time Pete ,that is a fair whop of Bullshit from you. You guys revelled in walking around with the arse hanging out of your pants. You couldn't wait for your vechiles to fall apart. Your badge of courage was how many to a room you slept. You claimed not to need money You were RENUNCIANTS! And proud of it! And no matter how many times you were told it was a bullshit trip you just ate it up. And woe betide the one who walked away from it...For fuck's sake dont you remember that Pete! You guys were crazy and it had NOTHING to do with K or M. They were YOUR fantasies So think about some of the guys who walked on your crazy trip. You know ?Left the shelter of the Ronald houses and shacked up with a chick.How did you respond to them. Now lets not be hypocritical again............ Do you remember that?

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:23:58 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: CW Subject: Reminiscing on what really happened! Message:

Yes, yes I remember, We and I felt pity for them. Treated them like they'd fallen. I frankly admit to that. I was a front line storm trooper. I avoided them after they had left. The main reason I did that because I was sure that I would follow. I was full of defensive routines to make sure that I kept doing what I thought I should be doing. Not many people told us we were into some trip. Most thought we were doing the right thing and expressed some form of jealousness or envy or admiration. Now that was what they said to our faces. What they said to others or what might have been expressed as oblique criticism was probably views as 'mind'. No one expresses contrary veiws for our sake that was for sure. They may have done so because they were sick of our patronising tone - for that I can't blame them. I'm surprised anyone had anything to do with us at all. As for the other bit - you are wrong - I went to Ashram satsangs by MJ in Melbourne and he was very clear about where we should be. I don't mean working 24/7 for a dopey construction company. But he was clear regarding where devotion lay, where practising knowledge lay, where we shoul be if we were really focused on him. It was all clear and laid out. It was a straight from the horses mouth as it gets. Cheers Peter

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 15:21:16 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Reminiscing on what really happened! Message:

So? That didn't justify your trip. On the earlier matter maybe you just didn't want to hear because it was loud and clear -drop it and drop it quick. To tell you the truth we use to think you painters had lost it big time...To many fumes? Pete , the reason I question you is because you have a selective and one dimensional memory. My take on it was that you were under the spell of a coupla 'look at me boss! ' types and for whatever reason then ended up leading very bent lives. I mean we use to pity you.And remember a lot of people worked out there.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 22:59:02 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: CW Subject: What really happened and surrender Message:

Listen CW, All your criticisms of me are accurate. There were times when the fumes actually got to us. Occupational health and safety went by the board - the lord would look after us - yeah like he did for that Sydney initiator chook who got retired out here - Julie. We weren't solely under the spell of a coupla people - we were predominantly ashram premies - Loz, me, Paddy, - I think painting became the key to heaven (ashram). Now there certainly were spells that people tried on. Jof was always trying to create hype spells, John W was doing the same - but they only ever had an effect because of our susceptability from the cult conditioning. Bent lives - well yes. But entirely congruent if extreme with an ashram lifestyle. Now the ashram satsang was post cityscape in Australia. But we also got the ashram satsang from Kissimee in 79. And there as I recall he was saying he thought that real surrender, remember that word, would begin in the ashrams. Ashrams were the places where realisation of knowledge would begin (becasue it hadn't happened so far). Thinking back I also imagine that us citscape painters and the other carpernters and brickies - we were pretty impervious to criticisms however explicitly leveled against us. I think because we felt somewhat special (up ourselves) and also somewhat radical or frontiers-like (becasue working in trades is tough work and sites that look like bombs had hit them). I reckon we were perpetually in an altered state of consciousness most of the time - underslepped, overworked, oversatsanged, undermeditated (extra sleep time) - service out our ears. We used to rise at 5pm - sing arti in some places, meditate (sleep), have breakfast and if lucky - prepared by a housemother - go to work - work 7 ish until late - return for dinner, satsang and then arti and mediation - man alive. And this was usually packed into 3 -4 per room. I usually edned up on my own as I had a chain saw snore - I'd even wake people down the corridor and around the corner. Now I think your point about 'M didn't cause this' is entirely valid but only up to a point. He didn't order the perculiar organisation - but he did demand certain things - surrender amongst them - and he was explicit in his support of ashrams - and and organisation I have worked with usually reflects the CEO. You can argue otherwise - recent research by the Aust Govt has shown that in schools the principle and their values and actions is the main determinant of how kids turn out from that school. So there is complicity on both sides - never argued against this idea - at least I don't think I have consciously. But I am pissed that MJ takes no responsibility for any of the ashrams stuff. I personally don't give a stuff about the painting fiasco - I care that he said explicitly that he would accept me as an ashram premie - I oriented my life and thoughts around that and he pissed me off - and according the Mike Dettmers because of possible litigation and inadequate insurance in ashrams - re health etc. Now I was a 'shri' and here are still elements of that in my life (the focus etc)- not to many I hope or at least appropriate where they are. But please don't keep trying to exculpate MJ from his responsibility - well I guess you can if you believe it. Cheers Peter Howie ps One day I'll twig - but as I've said my memory is stuffed - even when I meet premies I've known and loved- I can't place many of them - too much altered consciousness I guess.

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 00:41:19 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: What really happened , Evolution Message:

It might interest you to know that the activities of the Rat(remember him?) and his exploitation of a willing and gullible workforce of mostly non tradesmen types in the fashion described by you was NOT sanctioned , ever!And yes, this company did reflect the MD...the Rat In fact the instruction went out (up to 6 months before it actually happened ) to wind it up and for people to simply act normally. Remember the meeting. All the guys ,DH and Pad... I'm sorry you went through it Pete. I guess my annoyance at the time was directed at the little fella holding it all together (and I can assure you it was NOT M) The one thing that remained a constant over the years for me was not the bitterness or distress at the early forms of powerplay levelled by other P's. It was and is the simplicity and beauty of Knowledge

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 11:17:20 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: CW Subject: What really happened , Evolution Message:

Yeah, yeah I know that M wasn't holding anything together in terms of day to day stuff. I reckon I was complete fodder for the Rat and Co. Did the Rat end up making any money at the end of the day? I mean he bought the city office cheap and sold into a rising market - but where did the money go? I remember when he joined the ashram his wife actually gave up everything while R kept managing the assets and probably still is and does. As for sanctioned - I know M didn't get his hands dirty on this one. But the whole Aussie organisation did. They pulled me up there basically to work with the others. After it had been clear M was not coming in any great hurry. I was pulled from the ashram, by the ashram heirachy as were others. So the sanction was approved organisationally. Then again they (the powers that be) always hated the Canberra ashram - becasue we always, all of us went to the programs without incurring debt or losing our jobs while still supporting head office - they couldn't work out how we did it. We actually did it because we learned, with hard work, to really respect and love each other without needing to fuck each other (emotionally or physically)and collaborated in a significant manner. Quite a lesson in organisation thuggery when they smashed us up. I'm still drawing lessons from that time. By the time I got to Brisbane I was somewhat of a broken person. As for your last point I get the strong feeling you're doing well, and you have managed to have kept those areas separate - it sounds like you are pretty happy with aspects of K and not too worried much about what M does. Probably less worried about what M does than what our PM Little Johnnie is up to and probably not too worried about him either. Cheers Peter

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 13:10:17 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: What really happened , Evolution Message:

Some of Johnnies henchman make me bitter and twisted . Ruddock? I think in time legend and fact will be well identified. Dont believe everything you read here Pete. The Rat got what he wanted.(And I believe you know what happens in the property market?) But to be honest I view him as a fairly tragic being. K is what I do. It's that simple. Dysfunctional people remain that way. I found it all to be a good learning curve.You'd be surprised how well (and how poorly) some of the company staffers have done.My motto has always to keep my wits about me and NEVER trust anyone who hasn't given me good reason to do so. And I can tell you that the same fuckers who tried to screw you back then would probably do the same given the chance again. Equally , those that would jump into a fire to save you would still do so. It's a values thing. But as we get older it gets harder for the power freaks to ply their trade. And its got nothing to with (and never did have)Knowledge So what would you rather have now Pete ? a loving family , a patch of ground and a few bob in the bank?....Or the approval of a few wankers. At least you are still breathing...........

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:01:55 (GMT) From: Rufus Higginbottom Email: None To: CW Subject: 'eh up lad!! Message:

woe betide Now THAR's an owd Yorkshire expression I 'aven't 'eard in years lad! Tha must be from t'moors, reet? Champion!

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:48:57 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: CW Subject: ***THIS IS SO FUCKING COWARDLY, CAT*** Message:

How ridiculously absurd for you to criticize Pete as a familiar like this without coming out of the shadows so he, or we, could know who's talking. One day, somehow, you'll be outed too. It's just a matter of time, asshole. And when you are I hope it's somehow embarrassing for you. Maybe it won't be, sure. But we all have to have a little faith in something, I guess.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:03:00 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: Jim Subject: And your modus operandi is totally transparent! Message:

Not in the least you aggressive fuck. I'd tell you now except it gives me more pleasure watching you squirm. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy however you might paint the bedroom wall. So , no ,it's not bullshit.We knew each other quite well. Leave him alone you big goof and he might do you all a favour and work it out. You are so predictable. Love to get a case up against you one day you little spider. I'd eat you for dinner.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:36:34 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: CW Subject: And your modus operandi is totally transparent! Message:

Cat, we all know how successful you are in your business. Just leave poor buggers alone, we like to live in poverty and grovel about the past. what you doing here anyway? if not watching with us.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:05:07 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: CW Subject: Unlike yours? Message:

CW, You are a joke, a cowardly jerk. That's your modus operandi. I guess your Master would be proud of you.     If he knew you existed.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:14:41 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: JohnT Subject: How could you know? Message:

At least I actually recieved K. You ? You just hang here because you have no where else to go. I cant think of anything more absurd. Complaining about something that NEVER happened to you. Good one Pommy John T you silly Git!

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 08:52:05 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: CW Subject: You've gone too far, Catweasel Message:

John is married to a premie. I bet you're not even married. Can't get anyone to put up with your crap. Fuck off you foot-fetishist snivelling creep. You'll rue the day you ever made an enemy out of me.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 12:26:51 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: PatC Subject: You've gone too far, Stanley!!!! Message:

What is it with you ? It seems you have the almighty licence to dish it out eternally to anyone who has the audacity to challenge the nonsense spouted here. The Rightuous moralist is not a mantle that sits well upon your fine shoulders Pat. I'm married to an alien but that gives me no clue to its galaxy. Now what is that has travelled up your proboscus this time Pat....Talk about the thin white line!! And incidentally I'm not looking to rack up a score here ... Dare you to be tolerant..........??????/

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 18:40:41 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: CW Subject: Dr Livingstone, I presume? Message:

Well, pussy pie, I am a moralist and you aren't which seems to be the main point of contention between exes and premies. And I am the most tolerant person I know but that doesn't mean that I don't speak out when I see an injustice which I perceived your insult to JohnT to be. Anyway I am not the avenging type of moralist. I prefer to give people enough rope to hang themselves.

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 04:18:05 (GMT) From: CW Email: None To: PatC Subject: No, Oliver Hardy, Stanley! Message:

And dont you forget it! Now see here Pat , John T has a bit of a history of slinging off to me about things he simply has no idea about . I mean his wife has K? So what? All of mine have borne at least one child ,menstrate and have breasts. Cant say I have a direct co-relatable experience of any of that. Hey I can be empathetic towards them , but ....( Well as we get older , maybe the breast thing! OK, OK !!!....) You seem to vaccilate between extreme tolerance and the school Prefect. What gives Pat? Is it a running with the pack thing? Or are you just not sure. Hey Pat , I've known the Sud Africaan brothers and sisters since the 70's. Introduced themselves to me as Cape Coloureds.(Did you go to Kissimee?) Fascinated me at the time. My only real experience of that part of the world up until then had been a 'poison' from Durban. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 05:41:50 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: CW Subject: I'm just Protean, Pussy Message:

The South African national flower is the protea named after the Greek god, Proteus, who could take many forms. This is because the flower has so many variations. It takes years to get to know me. The only thing consistent about me is that I never run with packs and therefore cannot be easily pinned down. As soon as it looks like someone is making assumptions about me they will probably be contradicted. My relatives on my mother's side are Cape Coloureds who do not fit in with either Africans or Europeans. We're a protean bunch all right who have an aversion for anything either black or white. We prefer the shades of grey in the middle. Durban Poison is dynamite. I remember when it was 25 cents for what people now pay the same price as gold.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:43:08 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jim Subject: The familiar stuff may be all made up Jim n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:49:35 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Yes, we all acted like idiots at times Message:

when we were premies (except maybe for Catweasel - snicker). I sure know I did - I've written about it on the forum and in my journey's entry. It would be pretty easy to generalize about someone acted even if you didn't know them very well - most of us did and said the same kind of silly things. I think Peter has got a good attitude about this. It has actually helped me to talk about some of the more embarassing things I did and said. I don't have anyone confronting me on them - I would find that challenging - but Peter seems to be able to roll with it. I admire him for that.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:39:17 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Reminiscing after reading Charles opener. Message:

I think we are all a little in awe of, a little blinded by, rich successful people. In V.S. Naipal's book 'Bend in the River' the main character talks about the human tendency of making the wealthy into 'holy people.' I didn't read Charles' opener, but I remember those premies as well, who defended M by saying 'Hey I fulfill the American dream, live well, AND have Maharaji too.' As if that is even the point! The moral conundrum is always there lurking behind these gleeful expressions of so-called normalcy within M's world. There is nothin 'normal' about M or what he is up to. It's very antithetical to what most 'normal' people hold dear, actually. Just had to chime in there with my two cents. Now my time is up (time I allow myself to lurk here) and I must dash...

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 05:37:16 (GMT) From: bill-well, he is NOT 38, Email: None To: Helen Subject: more like 42+, thin, short, gay, a twin, from Message:

the usa northwest, a fencer, hopeful(as you can tell!), a photographer, started attending law school in the 80's, lived in Brooklyn then Manhatten then? Well, I first met him in Miami, the 707 was done, we had finished the Hawker Sidley aircraft which m ended up hating because he thought it should work perfectly and Murphy's Law had other ideas, I was living on Rivo Alto Island in the house they had bought for m as an office. He didnt use it so they made it a house for initaitors to stay in when they were in town. Then they didnt know what to do with it so they made it a guy's pre ashram house. Bill Patterson let me in there. It was the closest I got to ashram life luckily. I believe Charles came there for satsang. I met him doing service with some good friends of mine I believe on a Holi stage set up crew. He lived in a premie apt with a few guys, one was sick and it turned out he had AIDS. No one knew what the heck it was back then. Charles went to India, and was as much a premie as we all were back then. Well, not Mili, he was on the sidelines fiddleing around following his mind, one of those guys Pat C so accurately described as being real premies. Charles moved to NYC in about 84. He tried to be a street photographer taking photos of couples and people in clubs like the Blue Note in Manhatten for money. He had fun and some success, but ended up working at a printing company. He did date Mary Minor, and I liked his premie devoutness, not that I saw him at NYC satsang all that much when I briefly lived there. He brought 3 fencing freinds to a m event in 95. He was happy with my interaction with those 3 freinds of his at that event, I had the right mix of cult speak going at the time. Enthused fraudulence and cultish baiting. Manhatten is so barren, and the climb up the legal rungs so demanding, having built his life around the m fantasy, and after donations he probably has little to show for all his decades of work, and with midlife crisis time knocking on his door, he is going to go down with the ship playing in the band till the water drives him here with a different attitude about forum 5 ......or forum 9 by that time. I would say that no matter how he protests, we should not contact his employer about his misdeeds, and just let him have his relationship with us, which we can certainly handle, and know that he will need us one day. Desperately need us.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 06:25:38 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: bill-well, he is NOT 38, Subject: His claims about himself are funny and revealing Message:

This from Charles Glasser on his site 'I’m a practicing attorney with one of the world’s most prestigious law firms. I was graduated as valedictorian with a dual degree in Political Science and Political Philosophy from one of the nation’s largest universities. I have a law degree from one of the very top law schools in the world. I speak two different languages, am an accomplished classical guitarist, and was a nationally-ranked foil fencer. Well, lets see, when I knew him well he did not play guitar and I guess he took some spanish courses from new york university. As of 1995, he was still a law student, so I dont see how the political degrees fit into the schedule unless they are just side courses he took that maybe qualify as a minor. Does 'nationally ranked foil fencer' really mean much? As small as that group is, just being a member that plays will give you a ranking, doesnt mean you are in the top 3, or even the top 10,000, just that you are listed. Since all his other claims are so hyped, how can I believe this is different? Before a thread below was deleted tonight for perhaps showing too much about Charles tying his employer to his website, there was a post that linked us to posts Charles made on some internet chat style forum where Charles said things that revealed that CLEARLY he IS what he claims he isnt.......... 'I’m a lot of things, but a brain-washed cult-member isn't one of them'

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 21:19:06 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: bill Subject: His claims about himself are funny and revealing Message:

Yeah, why does he feel like he has to hype up or over exagerate his accomplishments in order to legitimize his devotion to M? I'd almost rather deal with the mushball, total brainless devotees instead of this overbloated dossier/resume-type stuff. I mean, who gives a shit? Either way you slice it, whether you are a humble working stiff or a PhD from Harvard, if you follow M, you're being hoodwinked by a con artist. Try putting that on a resume!

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 12:27:45 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: bill Subject: 2 languages-premie and legalese-both dishonest Message:

and obuscating, designed to baffle, confuse,alienate and sound superior. neither of which is straight honest english.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 05:19:57 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: bill Subject: those posts are around bill on AG Message:

Excellent posts yourself here. Thanks and glad to see they have survived the scissors. L, Selene

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:14:26 (GMT) From: bill-yeah, I also thought Email: None To: Selene Subject: they might be on 'MAIN' FA's list..:)..nt Message:

sfgs

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:40:22 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Premies, there's nothing to be afraid of here Message:

Maybe I'm so far removed from premies and Maharaji that it only sounds weird to me but Premie Richard wrote: ''the reality of Maharaji and the people who have served him over the years'' Just why are people serving Maharaji? Is he God or something. Is he a reincarnation of Krishna or Jesus? On a different track, the more premies go on about how this forum is a hate club, the more hateful they sound themselves. This latest batch of premie posters and webmasters seem like a desperate bunch to me. Not much inner peace there, I'll be bound. Relax guys. This isn't a hate club. There's good vibes here, man. Me, I like cool sounds and playing with my kids and talking to the neighbours. And I like to express myself here, now and then. I don't hate Maharaji. He's history as far as I'm concerned. But The Truth about Maharaji has to be told in a dispassionate and accurate way and I'm pleased to participate in that. There is an old saying, ''Everything finds its own level'' and Maharaji is finding his. Ha ha ha - I guess I do have a warped sense of humour. Please forgive me brethren but I don't hate premies, Maharaji or his family. But the truth will come out, that's for sure. I mean, the Messrs Donner and Dettmers revelations made a few people sit up and pay attention didn't they. So all that's happened is that a few major details of the master have come to light. There's nothing to be afraid of. Maharaji's still there, as large as life only now he's a little more transparent. You may continue to follow his every word, there's nobody stopping you. Just like there's nobody stoppng the people here...

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:05:47 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Thanks, Dave. I don't hate His Holeyness or PWKs Message:

I honestly don't really understand why they have got their tits in a tangle anyway. My basic beef with him is that he has taken some very ordinary yoga techs and mystified them and esotericized them and obfuscated them and insisted that they be kept a secret. So all I'm saying is that either he knows this too and is doing this to make money or he really is deluded by his Hindu upbringing and needs to educate himself. He has not done me any good by mixing up some perfectly harmless yoga with arcane and supertitious gurujism but I don't even blame him for that. But neither has he done me any permanent harm. It was my own ignorance which allowed him to pull the wool over my eyes. I'm simply pointing out that he is wrong. What's so wrong with that? It's called criticism not hate. And I really don't hate premies. Some of the loonier ones may irritate me but mostly I feel sorry for them. I may occassionally criticize them too but, hey, that's called democracy.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:03:15 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: they called this site a hate site Message:

When I first came here my posts did reflect anger/hate/hurt. And off and on since. But things have been overall on an upswing and if I were to search my own posts I know I would be able to chart a progressive line graph toward healing. Everyone goes thoough a journey. Accurate name. I said in a recent post that my real journey began after I left the lotus footsies. It's been a rocky road. Some would indeed be able to stick me in a box. addicted, mentally ill, whatever!! I don't care what those assholes think, it was part of my process and I know the healing that has taken place and those morons like Charles have no idea what exiting and healing really means. They haven't done it have they? And how nice it is for them that this site has been wide open and those of us here have revealed our vulnerabilites. Now the Charles's of the world can exploit them to attempt to discredit this website. It's so ironic given the fact that Maharaji's official website is censored. A cult is a crutch and a whole nice belief system that shelters. They can have it. I have no interest in financing Mr. Rawat's wealth, his so-called mission whatever it is, or his families future. I have my own future and my own family. So this makes me part of a hate site in their eyes. fine. whatever.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:28:32 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Selene Subject: Selene...Interesting, all the anger backlash... Message:

Hi Selene, How are you? I've quit trying to talk to Richard the Second down below because it suddenly dawned on me that these premies who come here and jump up and down defending the lard actually don't realize that we were premies! Here we are, a bunch of people who were premies during a time when the cult was in full gurujism (I love that one, Pat) swing. These newer folks just snub there noses at us, call us haters because they haven't got a clue what it was like when we joined up. They've lost the ability to distinguish between anger and hate. Sure, I have felt hatred for goomraji over the past couple of years, but I don't really don't hate him, it has mostly been real anger. I just wish he'd knock off the ''poor me, no gratitude$$$'' routine, stop his family cult business, and take his yacht to the Sahara desert. Hasn't he accumulated enough expensive shit for a few lifetimes? Bill said it well in a one liner below to Mili. Something to the effect of 'yeah, I love ya, but we did all the service.' Premies who were around during the bad ole days have chosen not to remember what it was like. New PWKs are clueless. When I read about Amaroo, it stunned me that there was a cocktail hour and dinner with drinks. That's so foreign to me when I look back as an ex-premie on my live as a premie. Dinner and drinks with the Satguru? Weird, just so weird! Then they blame us for posting on a forum within a website that is, in my estimation, unprecedented in scope. This is not hate site. This is a cult-buster site. The backlash is difficult, but it is good. It means we're making an impression in some way that is changing things in that insidious cult. Time for bed. Be well, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:31:48 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: 'if you don't like it, just walk' inaccurate Message:

I think Maharaji forgot to add the following: 'If you don't like it, just walk, and SHUT UP ABOUT IT!!' Or at least that is what some premies seem to feel. Frankly, I hate being told to shut up, be quiet, move on, etc. about something that I feel is wrong - it reminds me too much of the 'don't talk about it' dynamic in my own family - which still exists. Or maybe it's more like, 'if you can't say anything nice about someone, don't say anything at all'. Ex-premies, with the notable exception of Bob Mishler, didn't say anything for years - mostly because they didn't have a venue. Unfortunately for some people, now we're talking. Take care, Cynthia and Selene, Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:36:08 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: just so long as it's the SAHARA desert Message:

not here Cynthia hi and, Thanks. Some of us newer posters have the uh - dubious advantage (?) - of having been there in the 70s and in the revisionist 90s. I think they hate that. they can't do much about our memories and our conculsions that we all seem to share. That was a lifesaver for me when I found this site in 98. Yeah Cynthia get some rest no need to waste further energy on r2. Think of it this way, there will be another one along any day now.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:12:26 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Selene Subject: Laughing at peoples' Sacred Cows is hate? Message:

Someone accused me of hating Rev Rawat and premies over on Lifes (sick) Great and I had to tell them that is not true. I satirize and poke fun at His Holeyness, Balyougyuesswhat, and tease premies. Actually I tried to play the conciliator over there but realized that I actually have a whole lot more fun poking fun at the Sacred Cow. Anyway the premies over there don't like debating or discussing. They simply preach to each other like choir boys between psalms. Like little boys doing mutual masturbation behind the organ during the sermon.

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 05:55:46 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: PatC Subject: Cows after you Message:

>They simply preach to each other like choir boys between psalms. Like little boys doing mutual masturbation behind the organ during the sermon. Don't know how you came up with that impression Pat. The fact is, it just exists in your head. Those words did spring from your imagination. Sweet dreams, CD

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:43:22 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: CD Subject: You're right, Chris. Slap accepted. Message:

Me and my smart-alecky mouth. You know I have nothing but respect for you and LG. But I'm famous for putting my foot in my mouth whenever I try to show off. My apologies.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:14:33 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: PatC Subject: oooo did the choir boys do that? Message:

While I trembled in fear when they draped the statues in black during Lent? well shit another icon bites the dust :) I looked over there twice this week and came to the same conclusions you did.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:58:42 (GMT) From: Sonny G Email: None To: Selene Subject: Is the kitchen getting too hot? Message:

Perhaps if you stopped trying to justify yourselves all the time you'd be more believable. It looks like the cybercommunity just isn't buying it. Pia's site starting up has opened the floodgates. Something many of us don't acknowledge is the younger generation. Amaroo and the European dates were populated by more under 25's than ever before. They seem to view this 'war' as little more than an amusing joke. This was seen on the MJRocks chatroom yesterday.....I'd post the url but it's p/w ptd. 'Looks like the tidal wave they've been taunting and mocking with their hateyou/hateme bravado is on its way at last. And whoever knew the WEB would be such a radical place right?!' and this.... The heat in the kitchen is going up by 10 degrees a week and it's hilarious watching the rats scurrying around all over the place. Nowhere to run geezzzzz! Now there's something they never thought about - they've run out of juice, said it all 300 times and still feel ill. SOS time is nigh.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:27:10 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Sonny G Subject: Who cares what the cybercommunity thinks? Message:

I don't, and I can't understand why premies think it's so important to keep making this point. This forum and site are for people who have found it and have a use for it. Even if 99.9% of the people on line think it is stupid, it's still serving a purpose if it helps one person. Sorry, but I really don't care what they are saying in the 'MaharajiRocks' chat room - although the idea of such chatroom is pretty funny.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:42:36 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Sonny G Subject: Did anyone cum? Message:

'Maharaji Rocks' chatroom eh? Mind if I miss that one. Sounds like a real barrel of fun - not. I can just imagine the scintillating conversation by the two of three Maharaji bores there. Personally, I'm very unmoved with people talking about Maharaji in gushing tones. It all seems rather immature. A bit like my children going on about 'Hearsay' (a manufactured pop nine day wonder). Except with them I can tolerate it.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:41:16 (GMT) From: Sonny G Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: fair enough Message:

You and Katie are right. It did suck a little of gopisicophant material. Though they're obviously enjoying a few silly gossipy chuckles. I'm amazed at all the sites popping up like mushrooms all over the place. Pat's right too, this is a democracy compared to a pw site which I did find a little strange I admit. I think the youthful exuberance factor kicks in with 'let's make it a secret site _ password only!' What they fail to understand is that bugger all people will just call in. Guess they'll open up shop when it gets to incestuous. party on dudes S

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:54:53 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Sonny G Subject: a dozen perhaps Message:

Where are all these youthful beings when one goes to a gathering of students whatever it is called this week? I see a handful, the children of the old ancient premies. Methinks you are pushing this youth thing a bit far.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:33:28 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Sonny G Subject: Maharaji Rocks is a password protected site, huh? Message:

Unlike this one. That's the difference between a cult and democracy. No free speech in a cult but you can post here all you like.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:35:06 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: PatC Subject: hey PatC we were . like . so synchronized Message:

Exactly my point below although more verbose.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:42:04 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Selene Subject: Selene, so synchronized - yikes! Message:

I bet EV is jealous since they can't get two premies together without brainwashing them with four hours of videos at their new KIT seminars which cost $135. Or maybe we were separated at birth?

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:31:52 (GMT) From: SelenieJi Email: None To: Sonny G Subject: yourselves? last I checked Message:

I only had one self. As for the MJRocks chatroom I have no idea what that is and do not want to know. BTW are EV and oh yeah Maharaji aware of this chatroom? Do they approve? Is it open? Private and monitored? Nice to see you here and able to express yourself :)

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:15:48 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Elk Update Message:

O.K. I'm sure everyone wants to keep up to date with Haharatsludge's fruits - what are his devotees saying? Here's a recent expression from enjoyinglife.org picked at random: Dissatisfaction/satisfaction Dissatisfaction lies in my mind while satisfaction lies in my soul At the end of my journey, a diamond will be made of coal Too much thinking leads me in circles while not enough leaves things up in the air The power of thought is one thing i've got and when i don't need it i haven't a care written by Bruce Allen Archer, (from San Francisco, Ca, USA) somewhere along the way I think Haharatsludge should quit while he's still got a little dignity left if this is what his followers are saying. It's too stupid to even comment on - a kindergarten teacher would be alarmed if a student came up with something like this. I think that's what they have child psychologists and psychiatrists for. You know, it used to be said that 'if you don't use this knowledge it will rot'. Any clue here maybe that Haharatsludge isn't teaching the knowledge properly? Steve

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:27:45 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: I know Bruce. I wonder if he knows his poem Message:

is on ELK. I told him about the other one that someone posted here from ELK and he was surprised. He is a poet and artist in SF, one of the old hippy Hindu school with a heart of gold and a Viet vet. I just wish they would pay him for his poems as he is not a wealthy man. I'll email him and tell him another of his poems is on ELK.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 16:52:33 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: PatC Subject: Haha Pay Someone For A Poem? Message:

You're kidding, right? Do bicycles fly now too? Love you, Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:25:50 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Apology Message:

Apology to the rats for using their name in 'Haharatsludge'. I'll have to come up with a name that's descriptive without insulting anything. 'Rawat' sounds like 'rat' but I can't help that - that's the name he was born with. Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:21:22 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Well,there goes my neighborhood! Holi schmoli!!! Message:

Another rugu cult, Bochasanwasi Swaminarayan Sanstha, is building a temple at the entrance to my quiet lil' residential neighborhood. check out this website: http://www.swaminarayan.org/ and regarding the 'possibility of knowledge': http://www.swaminarayan.org/philosophy/precepts/index.htm also: their arti, darshan, mega festivals -- all coming to my neighborhood soon [and other locations]. gurujism: mantras, bhakti juju, and the Lord in human form - God ishwar [eshwar] of this material universe. I just hope they don't proselytise door-to-door like the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses do. There goes da neighborhood! Merde!! Perhaps we ought to consider doing some educational outreach to other gurus' slaves. These really dumb slaves mentioned do mantras and rosary beads and prostrate before their Lord rugu incarnate, surrendering the reins of their minds and lives, too [also pocketbooks] -- guru catholicism! I moved to [what I thought was] a quiet neighborhood, put up a 'no trespassing' sign and got an unlisted phone number, hoping to get some privacy from solicitations, telemarketers, door-to-door salespersons, religious messianic fanatics and their intrusive church/cult recruiting and harassment of their residential neighbors. The Christian religious nuts just ignore my signs and bother me anyway, saying 'oh, we're not selling anything.' 'Oh, I see by that Bible you're carrying that you can probably read. Right? So, did you see the No Trespassing sign at the entrance to my property? Please advise your church or cult not to invade my privacy or property ever again. Bye bye!' Then they just do it again and again, anyway. 'We have the answer, we know something you don't, we are the chosen few, we are spreading the message, only by accepting -------- as your Lord and saviour will you receive salvation, the Word of God is in this black book, by chanting this holy name you will merge with the Almighty, here's an insightful publication The WatchMaker, we'd like to invite you to our church... ok, then, we'll pray for your tormented soul... [then the archetypal cult dumb-bunny giggle giggle]'. Yeah, like, a mind is a terrible thing to have. Just as I was writing the previous sentence, some recorded solicitation [for the umpteenth time] from a vile outfit called Shell Vacation interrupted my fax line and terminated my internet connection. These guys are like predatory harassers - even after receiving a cease and desist letter. What does a person have to do to get some peace and quiet around here - move back into a cave with no phone or electricity?! These telemarketers, solicitors and religious cult fanatics don't respect ANYONE else. At lunch: Oh, What a cute lil' pitbull puppy! You're giving Kali away because she has a tendency to bite and scare people who come uninvited onto your property? Hmmm - Well, now, for only $50 I'll take her off your hands. This afternoon: ring, ring, ring. Oh, it's another couple of Moron suits at the door. Ok, a test run: Kali, go get 'em! Grrrrr, grrrrr, chomp --- screaming fanatic Mormon missionaries running away. Good doggie! Now, you may have some doggie darshan and a dog biscuit. After all, 'the servant is the Master's dog' (quote from maha's dada). Down, stay, crawl, roll over, lick my toes -- haha hehe hoho!!! [Too bad Kali doesn't have a monthly donation to give me for 'participation', too.] What a good lil' premie dog you are, Kali Yuga!!! According to Indian mythology, when Brahma created the Dog, he told it to go and serve the most powerful being on the earth. So, the dog first went to serve the elephant and then the lion. When the dog learned that both animals feared the hunter, it went to serve the human being. Shri Hans was right: The premie servant is the Master's dog, and remember when maha talked about how stupid dogs are; so now: The dog is da Master's servant. Funny, I also used to have a mongrel dog named Hans [perhaps it was his next incarnation]. Maybe maha born 'Lord God of the Yogis' self-proclaimed 'Great King' will be lucky enough to return as dung beetle -- after all, he obviously likes ze bullshit very very much! Ok now, Good doggie, now may kiss da smelly feet. lick, lick, lick -- such bliss. Doggie darshan. Verily: The devotees are their Masters' dogs. There goes the neighborhood... I can almost hear the devotee doggies' out-of-tune voices blaring insipid arti to their Living Lord of the Universe and disturbing my lil' nap right now. Now, where are those darned earplugs when I need 'em - I can see that I'm going to have to stock up on thousands of foam earplugs. Realtor: I understand you want some privacy and a place to let it all hang out. May I interest you in some cheap remote land with great potential for development? Well, we have two parcels - one in Argentina and the other is in Queensland, Australia... location, location, location! Oh well, until I heard the news, it Was a beautiful day in the neighborhood... [but feeling like an ol' curmudgeon - probably means time for some chai and chapatis] Fleas and rentals [scratch scratch], er, Peace and lentils, da lil' swami

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:15:05 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: everyone Subject: http://www.swaminarayan.org/ Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:45:12 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: something I learned from my neighborhood Message:

Even if you are home, lights on, car in driveway you do NOT owe it to anyone to answer the door Don't know why this is a hard one for many but I learned! Before I moved in here I always lived by the University. Different set of eccentrics but the kind of people I could handle, even liked a lot of them. Then I moved here. A few years ago the meth addict woman who moved in across the street used to knock on our door every day. First time she wanted cigarettes and was offering a couple beers in trade. Next time she wanted something else and asked to use the bathroom and went through our medicine cabinet. on and on until I finally got it. I do not have to answer the door!! Not to her (she moved thankfully) not to the Jehovah or the Christians or even to anyone who hasn't called first or planned to meet me at home. It's a great feeling. and they learn believe it or not. The religious groups don't knock on our door anymore. I think the last time I was sitting right by the window and I just looked at them standing there outside.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:13:18 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Charles, the highly educated kind, man Message:

Sadly, a lot of these folks are clearly troubled people, many of them are drug abusers and former mental patients looking for someone or something remote, abstract and all-powerful to blame for their problems. I just don't think life works that way. Of course, this doesn’t make them bad people, but I wouldn't suggest taking too much of their advice, either. Isn't Charles kind? We aren't 'bad people,' we are just mentally disturbed drug addicts. Well, I'm glad Charles figured that out. I thought I had hidden these defects, but there you have it. Charles appears to be the epitomy of the cult member. He is highly educated but has absolutely no idea how idiotic he sounds. Keep it up, Charles. We need more examples like you to as fuel for our drug-induced, mentally disturbed hate campaign.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:48:08 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Good grief. I cannot beleive this Message:

Apparently there's a character called 'Charles' who describes himself as 'a practicing attorney with one of the world’s most prestigious law firms' and who publishes the following on the world wide web, under the heading 'QUESTIONS THAT DRIVE THE CRITICS CRAZY': QUOTE: Q: How come all the stories you (i.e. the critics, though Charles has voiced this question himself - TO himself) tell about Maharaji allegedly doing bad things are twenty-five years old? (to which Charles, replying to himself, adds:) Ask them this one, and they'll mumble but never give you a straight answer. That's because hate groups rely on the insidious urban legend: stories so old they could never be substantiated. Everything is 'I heard it from someone in the know who told them....' At best, these people are misleading themselves, at worst, they are trying to mislead others. They have no documentation of wrongdoing, because there never was any. Merely typing it up and posting it on a web page to look like 'archives' doesn't make it true. ENDQUOTE To which I would ask this supposed 'practicing attorney with one of the world’s most prestigious law firms' just WHY he thinks that crimes committed 25 years ago are no longer crimes? Hmmmm, Mr Attorney??? Ever wondered why war-criminals from the 1940s are still being brought in? Or is your world-view based on the concept of 'if someone can get away with it for 25 years, they should therefore be beyond the law'???? Like I said: ... good grief.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:22:51 (GMT) From: Mary M Email: None To: cq Subject: Onae/Nellie's Watch/GULFSTREAM V Message:

I only want to know three things no four: 1. What is the 'Onae Trust'? 2. Who owns the GulfStream V now that it is registered in Delaware. (No online Corporate Records ;-)? 3. What happened to Nellie's watch and jewelry 'squeezed' over the years for the Malibu Shack? 4. If Rawat hits me with his car and kills me would he do the Rawat/Prouty Chinese fire drill again? Now that's not too hateful is it? MM Mary M

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:44:17 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Mary M Subject: How is this connected? Message:

In an attempt to answer your questions, Mary, all I have at the moment to offer you is the following: . . . re. the 'Onae Trust': http://www.ex-premie.org/best/bof10242000160453.htm . . . re. the GulfStream V - who owns it? Er, the point surely is, who has exclusive (or should that be just 'free') use of it. Answer - Maharaji. My informed guess (though research HAS established the shell-corporations who owned the Gulfstream jets he previously owned before upgrading to G5) is that, again, a shell-corporation provides him with its use, free of charge. But please do tell me if I'm wrong. . . . Nellie's watch? - and inumerable other donations of family heirlooms - ask the IRS (or not, as you think fit). . . . And your last question - that's a big if. And Rawat's response (IMO) is a big IF too (plus ca change?) er... does that help?

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:22:46 (GMT) From: Mary M Email: None To: cq Subject: Thanks cq Message:

How is this connected? I was simply stating that I was more ~ curious ~ about issues surrounding the Guru and IMHO this curiosity does not fall into a ~ Hate Site ~ category. After all, if he talked the talk, but didn't walk the walk... that made quite a few ex-premies angry. He had no business claiming to be the 'Lord of the Universe'. He was not and never will be. As far as the premies and the Guru going on and on about 'breath' and 'breathing' as the ultimate experience nowadays .... well shoot any ventilator can perform the job of 'breathing' too. Hmmmm, following my 'stream of consciousness' method of posting I wonder if a premie 'clinically dead' but on a ventilator, thus breathing, still experiences knowledge.... ;-)Who would be the Guru in this scenario? MM

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 19:49:38 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Mary M Subject: thinking of this forum a 'hate site' is counter- Message:

thinking of this forum a 'hate site' is counter-productive, both for premies and ex-premies. We can communicate better than that (even though we frequently don't, but ... c'est la vie, c'est la guerre, and who am I to say what's truly fair?). If you'd care to read my reply to Mr Williams (above) I hope you'll be able to get a clearer perspective on where I'm coming from, and the direction in which I'd like to see the continuing dialogue between supporters and opponents of Mr Rawat go. PS, The 'breath-technique' that is part of the 'knowledge' has primarily an emotional effect on the practitioner. I don't think comparing it with an iron lung/ventilator is valid.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:25:37 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Jim Subject: *SIC 'EM, JIMBO! This is the time and the place!* Message:

This is the kind of person and ilk that you can let it fly and you will be in the same weight and ilk class to hold nothing back. I mean, after sparring with all of US here on the web, WE'D really like to see how you fare against someone of your own pro-fession. Come on, Jim, go get him!

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 07:26:33 (GMT) From: bill-YOU of all people Email: None To: Sandy Subject: should not use the word US in any context..nt Message:

asdg

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:54:06 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: bill-YOU of all people Subject: You didn't get it... Message:

I was busting Jim's chops about how he always says stuff like that when all he is really doing is saying his own opinion. It was a parody, bill.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:55:08 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Sandy Subject: *SIC 'EM, JIMBO! This is the time and the place!* Message:

Hey Sandy. Jim's postings are always welcome. It is nice to hear you making an effort to overcome your cyber tensions, though. Scary to read the senseless comments some of those premies are making, isn't it. Every REAL human attribute is a major crisis for prems. It prooves our point. The BigHead's Big Lie is doing a lot of damage to them. Sad, really sad. Poor Hector realizes he can never bring us back to Knowledge as if it's an external place. It really is gut-wrenching to hear intelligent adults admit such a non-sensical dribble.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:41:14 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: all Subject: Standing on mist Message:

The reactionary behaviour could be something to do with standing on thin air and not daringto look down.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:40:41 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: clarence clear Subject: Standing on mist Message:

Hey Clarence, My late brother used to see clearance signs at bridges and underpasses when we were little in the car, and he said so proudly one day that the clarence was 13 feet 6 inches. He also used to say that there was a clarence sale at the store when he saw the signs in the windows. He was just little kid learnig to read and I was four years older...He passed away in 1989. Your name made me think of him and that was cool... Back to the matter at hand... And I am the magical thinker? Perhaps it is standing on thin air and looking wherever the hell one chooses with a full 360 degree range and no shyness whatsoever...calling it how one sees it without the need for any approval from anyone else. Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:19:04 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: cq Subject: Good grief. I cannot beleive this Message:

I am wondering if Charles and Richard are the same person. They seem to have similar views regarding the minimising of serious crimes.Even more worrying if there are two premies supposedly experiencing knowledge and the wonder of Maharaji with such attitudes. Clarence

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:38:14 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: clarence clear Subject: Actually, I vote for Mr. Williams Message:

That 25 year old stories was his line, even though a bunch of us refuted it, and pointed to Jim Sanders' and other folks posts. Even posts like yours show him to be a liar. Of course, 'Charles' only had to lurk on the site to have found Deborah's and Silvia's posts. Since he doesn't even know how to cite the law (he cited the wrong code) I doubt he's doing more than blowing smoke. He's kind of a pit bull version of Pia. Also, he can't do math very well, because I believe Donner and Dettmers left around 1987, which is only about 14 years. And what about Nottingham Mole? They hate the 'haters,' most of whom are really only critical or disenchanted, until they themselves are full of --- hate, or at least its distant cousin, vindictiveness, as well as criticism. And when you think about it, they are tramplers of free speech, because they criticize the ex-premies for doing their own thing on a bulletin board. And even worse, Charles is a liar, because his stories about premies not being able to post on this board are just plain not true. Only vindictive spam, threats, or unwanted posts cluttering up the board with praise of M are removed. And only after they've been asked to chill it out a bit. And people with multiple alias are told to cut it out. And some of the offenders have been allowed back on the board. Also a liar about getting a 'punch in the nose' if a premie tells us to 'get a life' or 'move on.' There's threads every few days with reasonable answers to hit-and-run posters that often spew their critical venom and then don't even read the answers. --f

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:03:23 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Man, am I sick of ''I am a lawyer'' Shit... Message:

Hi Francesca, I agree. Mr. Williams is a good candidate. I worked as the Personnel and Health Plan Administrator for a very prestigious law firm in Conn. Forty-five attorneys and two branch offices. That experience opened my eyes that it doesn't matter where anyone went to law school nor where they practice. Assholes are assholes, even lawyers. I also learned not to ''fear'' lawyers during my employment in the law firm because some of the lawyers are not only assholes but unbelievably stupid when placed in a real law practice. The legal assistants and legal secretaries teach first year associates a lot of what they need to learn right out of law school, and it pissed off royally the (mostly) women I was responsible for in a personnel capacity. I get a chuckle out of folks who flaunt the lawyer title. And Chuck was too scared to publish his law school or law firm. Whether or not this Charles person is an actually an attorney is laughable because there is a huge glut of lawyers and law students in the US. Having a degree or even being a valedictorian means nothing other than they were good academicians. It's how they ''practice'' (excuse that word) that counts, and how they behave as people. I love the backlash, btw, that's a very good sign, indeed! Love, Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:07:34 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Right on, Cynthia Message:

I have worked closely with lawyers for more than 20 years and some of them are the stupidest people I have ever met. Moreover, as a rule of thumb, I have found it to be the case that anybody who shoves their law degree in your face as proof of some kind of intelligence, honesty or virtue, probably lacks all those things. Joe, the observant.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:36:31 (GMT) From: Gina Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: And this one's a chump, a 'practicing' jackass. nt Message:

yo

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:37:41 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: clarence clear Subject: Good grief. I cannot beleive this Message:

perhaps you could include 'Hector' (in the latest thread at 'Lifes Great'in the same mind-set?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:55:00 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: cq Subject: sorry again cq Message:

I haven't have I I must get a grip of this technology. Bye Clarence

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:53:03 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: cq Subject: Good grief. I cannot beleive this Message:

sorry I think I broke the link you put by copying the message. computer illiterate as you probably know by now.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:50:10 (GMT) From: clarenceclear Email: None To: cq Subject: Good grief. enjoying life Message:

I see what you mean. Talks a lot like rawat doesn't he. I like the bit about us all only having the realm of mind left. Sweeping assumption that. The best bit is that we exes are living with the, '...consequences of their choices reflected in their lives' Well I agree with that. I am feeling calmer, happier more joyful...I could go on but you see what I mean. Clarence

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:21:38 (GMT) From: Henry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A neo-bhajan song for Independence Day! Message:

I loved the bhajans. Part of the recovery process includes reclaiming the emotional capital that I invested in the music and the lyrics. Rather than continue to program myself with the old lyrics and the old belief system, this joyous melody can celebrate my freedom! Best sung loudly with a circle of friends at a Latvian Club, accompanied by a beer, a glass of wine, or even a frothy mug of carrot juice! So make up your own verses too! (to the tune of “In the Downpour of the Holy Name” - Charanand) Chorus: In the downpour of the cleansing rain, Truths are blooming amidst my pain! Amidst my pain, amidst my pain, Amidst my pain, amidst my pain, In the downpour of the cleansing rain, Truths are blooming amidst my pain! (1) Mind-numbing Word made problems disappear, But with no mind, life was too weird! Reason and logic are now dear to me, Lies and deceptions they help me to see! (2) Bliss was the only approved emotion, All feelings stuffed into static devotion, Expressing emotions keeps me sane, Accepting them all from joy through pain! (3) Overachiever, good student at school, I swiftly became the fat guru’s fool, Out from a static rathole burst I! I embrace truth, and I laugh and I cry! (4) Tears were stuffed, hypocrisy ignored, ‘Til I cut the umbilical cord, Sorrow flushed my heart free again, I found new joy in its healing rain! (5) I trusted too much and so I got screwed, To his rotund image my eyes were glued, My mind and emotions broke through my chains, I chose freedom with all of its pains! (6) Kissing the feet of the fat satguru, Without a mind was easy to do, But growing up demanded I change, I embrace freedom! I dance in the rain! (7) The guru gave me years to realize, Denial of feelings compounds the lies, Accepting myself has opened my heart, Lies have been conquered and Freedom attained! (Alternate Chorus): Freedom attained! Freedom attained! Lies have been conquered and Freedom attained! (8) As I walked out towards the EPO gate, Fears and doubts said, “Why don’t you wait?” “Wait for my friends? ‘Til I have no brain? “I’ve nothing to lose and my life to regain!” (9) Truth is too big and guru too small, Before I walked I learned how to crawl, No more pranams and darshan for me! I dance in the rain! Thank God I am free! (10) Follow the truth and it will set you free, Of bondage to lies and hypocrisy! I accept my body, mind and heart! I release the past and make a new start!

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:10:48 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Henry Subject: I'll drink to that --- n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:50:05 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Everyone Subject: A link to Lifes Great (sic) Message:

On Lifes Great, NiceGuy keeps on saying that links to Lifes Great are deleted from Forum V, for example, he says this in Re: It-Is-Called: 'When links to this page or postings positive about Maharaji are deleted from EPO you call it 'forum administration' or 'keeping the page on-topic.' When Pia does it, you're convinced it's the unseen big evil hand of EV. Puh-leeze... *sigh* C'mon, dude, do have any idea how UNTOGETHER EV is? They couldn't conspire to fart after a Hungarian dinner. Try looking for a simpler answer. Simple is good.' Well, here's a link to Lifes Great. Let's see what happens. If NiceGuy would actually look through the posts at this forum, he would see that there are posts that are positive about 'Maharaji'. Posts are not deleted here because of a pro-guru content, they are deleted for other reasons.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 13:39:45 (GMT) From: Lurker #27 Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Excerpts from the 1979 Mishler radio interview Message:

According to Bob Mishler, *************************************************************** He (Guru Maharaj Ji) turned what was originally a mission to spread meditation to people freely into something that solicited donations to do this type of work and had all of its funds essentially going to support his luxurious lifestyle. These people give all of their fruit of their labour to him. Some of them are probably under the impression that he is using it to spread his knowledge, to spread the practice of meditation and the means of inner peace to the people of the world. In fact, that's really not what happens. Most of the money just goes to support him in his lifestyle. It is very hypocritical to teach one lifestyle as a means of fulfilment to people, as a spiritual truth, and then live entirely opposite to that yourself. That becomes even more hypocritical, when in fact you don't just do the opposite, but you also make a great deal of effort and take a great deal of care in making sure that nobody knows this either. These were things that were deliberately hidden from the members of the members of the Divine Light Mission. It was just amazing how much money he could spend. He lives a very, very extravagant lifestyle. He had grown accustomed to a very luxurious lifestyle. A lot of the necessity of keeping the members believing that he was God was to ensure that they would continue to support him in this lifestyle. When he saw that he wouldn't have the same kind of ascribed status that he had as the guru being God, he suddenly realised he wouldn't have the same kind of control over people. He started worrying about what was going to happen to him in terms of his finances. ************************************************************** They have experiences that are very satisfying and fulfilling to them. The only thing that I object to is the way they are taught to attribute whatever experience they have to the guru himself. This is actually where they are actually being taken advantage of. When anything goes right in their lives, well, that's the grace of Guru Maharaj Ji. When anything goes wrong, well, that's themselves. That's their minds. So they are kind of in a bind, where anything that's beneficial they have to credit to the guru, and anything that's bad, well, they know that they're just not trying hard enough. ************************************************************** I'd see Maharaji go through a tremendous psychological deterioration during the time that I lived with him. Even though he was supposedly revealing the means to perfect peace to all of his following, he himself had tremendous problems of anxiety which he combated with alcohol. It even developed into a high blood pressure condition caused by essential hypertension, which is a form of internalising anxiety. So here was a man who was supposedly revealing perfect peace to everyone else, and I figured he couldn't even guide his own life, let alone guide others. Most of the members have never really seen him as he actually is. They have only seen him under very well-staged and planned conditions. They tend to rationalise everything that he does. I lived with him and I saw him as he actually is, not as he is staged to be. In doing that, I saw that he isn't what he purports himself to be. To that extent, I don't even think that he is sincerely wrong, I think that he is deliberately deceiving people. The thing is, they don't know who he is. There are very few people who do, because he keeps who he is very well hidden from people. He plays that role and he wants you to believe that he is God. Did he ever let go of this facade at any point in time? His own doubts? Oh yes, on a number of occasions. He is a pathetic person in this respect. He literally used to cry on my shoulder. Earlier in the show, I made reference to his own psychological degeneration. The anxiety that is caused to him by the role that he is in is tremendous. Unlike what he advocates, he is not capable of dealing with it by means of meditation. He ends up drinking excessively in order to cope with the stress. It was very sad to see him drinking himself into a stupor day after day. ************************************************************* I think meditation is something that could be of value to anyone who could learn these relatively simple practices to be able to focus their concentration inward and enhance their own consciousness in that manner. I still feel there is a value in that. But the way that it is being taught in the Divine Light Mission now, this whole way of life . . . it's a whole religious dogma that goes along with it. I think that's very detrimental. ***************************************************************** Amen!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:03:14 (GMT) From: Marshall Email: None To: Lurker #27 Subject: Was Mishler murdered, or what? Message:

I know this has been discussed here before, but will someone update me on the Mishler tale?Didn't he die in a heicopter crash after suffering a heart attack?Didn't this happen very soon after this interview took place?Am I the only one who thinks this sounds fishy?Would not Rawatt and crew benefit from Mishler being wiped out?Any ex-honchos out there know anything?

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 10:01:54 (GMT) From: Mr. Mind Email: None To: Marshall Subject: I heard Joan Aptor tried to seduce him. (nt) Message:

as

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:50:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mr. Mind Subject: Ewww, Gross! NT Message:

ddddd

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:18:36 (GMT) From: Original Richard Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Once and for all - it was an accident Message:

Creating a conspiracy theory about M whacking Bob Mishler and his pregnant wife Eileen, serves no purpose here.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:52:46 (GMT) From: Marshall Email: None To: Original Richard Subject: Who are you? Message:

Who are you to say what serves or does not serve a purpose here?Are you in charge now?Do you assume to speak for everyone here?I, for one, am served a purpose discussing this here.Anyone else?What do you know about Mishler or his pregnant wife, Eileen, and how they died, anyway?How did you get to be such a controlling, presumtious, know it all, asshole?Richard?Following the gurus example?Wake up, Loser!!

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 12:42:09 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Marshall, are you Marshall/X? Message:

Just wondering - if so, I'd like to say hello.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:05:00 (GMT) From: Marshall Email: None To: Katie H Subject: Marshall, are you Marshall/X? Message:

Hi Katie, It's the same Marshall that you sent L.O.T.U to a couple of years back. I'm still around occasionally to see what's new in the bizzare world of RawattLand. Bye, Marshall

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 18:03:32 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Good to hear from you! Message:

Yeah, well, it's been pretty bizzare *here* the last few days, as you can probably tell. It'll calm down, I hope :). Hope you are doing well - Katie

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:52:10 (GMT) From: Richard (original) Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Who are you? Message:

I posted as Original Richard because of the recent scewup with another poster named Richard. I guess I touched a raw nerve Marshall. Sorry. You have every right to your personal enquiry here and I applaud your journey. I suppose I could say you touched a raw nerve for me as well with your speculating about M being responsible for the death of the Mishlers and the emergency crew that was flying him to the hospital in Florida. It was a tragedy for sure. At the time it happened, I was a practicing premie living in Miami and I was sad for the loss. I worked with both Bob and Eileen in Denver and in fact, it was Bob's passion for GMJ's mission that influenced me to join the ashram in early 1973. As JHB more graciously informed you, this has been discussed here quite a lot. There is a good search engine to help you ferret out those threads where it was discussed. Who am I? As to M&K, I received K in 1972, traveled to India that year, moved into the ashram in 1973 and ended up designing publications in Denver from 1973 until 1979 - with a detour through COLL in San Antonio in 1976. Practiced K daily for 14 years. Quit practing in 1987 +/-. Got caught up in the late 90's Long Beach nostalgia buzz and began posting here late last year. So, who are you?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:41:43 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Marshall-you took the advice too harshly Message:

Richard did not mean to censure you, he meant to direct you. I've been here about a month. Exers are respectful but sometimes impatient. On the other hand, there is a lot of stuff in these archives and you can't be expected to review them all. Be patient. It's more fun to get to know each other and well, save your temper for some of the hit and run flaming that occurs.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:59:51 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Check the archives Message:

Marshall, You probably haven't been reading here long, so this may be new to you. Mishler's death has been discussed in depth here, and the consensus (although that may not be correct) is that his death was an accident. I can't be bothered looking up the links, so please do the reasearch yourself:-) John Brauns

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 11:53:20 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Pathologizing the victims Message:

Dear All, I just went into the 'Charles' site and was shocked and affronted by the patronising and abusive tone taken by this man towards the people who have been damaged by Mr Rawat and his cult. He seems to think that by portraying himself as an upper-middle class legal achiever his claims about EPO and Maharaji have validity. Doesn't he realise that there are a great deal of far more successful people out there in the world who would take less than a minute to recognise that Maharaji is the head of a cult. We have the weight of the worlds public opinion on our side and all EV have are a few, increasingly desperate, attempts to defend themselves. In the Wednesday edition of The Australian there was an article by a producer with 60 Minutes who described how his television team tracked down a pedophile called Dunn who was in hiding in Honduran. Once found he was extradited and is now in prison. Steve Barrett writes: 'Some of Dunn's victims became male prostitutes, some are heroine addicts, some are serving lengthy jail sentences - and some are dead' (p.4). We don't know how many children Jagdeo abused or what has become of them — doubly warped by being brainwashed, we can only imagine the worse. I know that one of them is dead. He was my brother. If we become angry about the abuse of human rights that has gone on in this cult and we speak out against it that doesn't make us pathological. The shame is all theirs. The fact that this apparently decent man 'Charles' remains silent about the Jagdeo issue says it all. Abi

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:21:18 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Abi Subject: Please forgive me Abi for posting this Message:

This is a post that appeared on Lifes (sick) Great this morning. I think the exes need to see it to understand what kind of deluded cult thinking is taking place there. Here is the post: Please send this to Abi: Dear Abi, If what you say is true about Jagdeo (and I could believe you) It must be pretty awful and I sincerely understand your feelings. But you see: People go through many awful things in life... and somehow through their strenghts as human beings they overcome these bad things and have a joyful life. People have been raped, tortured, put on the most awful situations for long periods of their lives and they somehow overcome. Problem here Abi is that you are 'used' by the active ex-premies to promote their hatred and confusion. Are they helping you? I doubt it. They are just perpetuating your bad experience. Who suffers: you. They don't. I am moving away from the discussion of who is responsible for what happened to you, and who should be held accountable. As a person you have the power to overcome whatever happened and move away from being the victim. The ex-premies want you and need you to STAY AS A VICTIM. You do not have to oblige. You have a life to live. You are a beautiful human being and you have the power, the right and the strength in you to be and enjoy your life. Do not accept any longer to be their pet victim. Sincerely nino

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:30:45 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: PatC Subject: Thanks Pat Message:

Pat, I guess I just have to say it very clearly: I am not being exploited or pathologised by EPO. Sweet of Nino to care I suppose. Abi

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 03:27:52 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Abi Subject: Thanks Abi. Saw it quite a while ago but hesitated Message:

to repost it here as I felt it was a bit snide and subtly insulting. His crocodile tears might fool himself and other premies.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 08:47:10 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: all Subject: PS: Another post from LG - I couldn't resist Message:

the warning at the end of this post to NOT post it on FV. A Post by Rachel Cunningham on Lifes (sick) Great: A guy called Richard said this (and a lot more, in a calm, clear, polite manner) to the FV's favorite victim, the woman who seeks not a cure for her ills but vengence. - Naturally he was lynched by the rabid dogs for saying.... 'Your attempt to demonize Maharaji has the collateral effect of funneling hate to all premies. Posts like Abi’s have that effect by pushing emotion-charged buttons in people such as “child abuse”, that they lose perspective and react strictly out of emotion. Incidences of child abuse by an Elan Vital representative were so rare that to harp on it like you guys do completely skews the reality of Maharaji and the people who have served him over the years, some of whom are the most genuine people I’ve ever met. If you really don’t like hate then why don’t you do your part to diffuse it instead of formenting it.' --- Want to see an emotionally charged button? The following is emotional manipulation at a truly vulgar level and is what Richard and many others find so ugly about this 'child abuse' crusade. --- 'We don't know how many children Jagdeo abused or what has become of them — doubly warped by being brainwashed, we can only imagine the worse. I know that one of them is dead. He was my brother.' --- Straight off a National Enquirer cover? Unfortunately not, but FV can be very similar. The exes keep crowing about this woman's 'courage'. It takes a lot more courage to say - THAT is not honesty, THAT is not truth, That is NOT someone seeking justice. It is emotional manipulation and it Stands Out A Mile. And they wonder why Maharaji doesn't arrive on her doorstep with chocolates and roses? --- This post is not intended to insult or enrage the woman in question. We all sympathise with her (them) and yes, the offender will be held accountable. There is a lot of work being done behind the scenes, to uncover not cover up. Patience will pay. ----- WARNING: This post is an attempt to clarify the nature of the ex.premie stance on the subject FOR PREMIES VISITING THIS SITE. If any ferreting ex wants to try and play the big hero by grabbing it and running back to ex.org shouting 'look at this!!' then you must WEAR THE CONSEQUENCES UPON YOUR OWN HEAD. There are unwell and unbalanced people on FV who should NOT be privy to information and opinion such as this. Enough said? I will respect this forum administrator's decision if he deems it necessary to remove this post due to the possible irresponsible behaviour of some people.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:24:42 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: PatC Subject: PS: Another post from LG - I couldn't resist Message:

Pat, I just SO don't experience anything which Rachel said as sympathy. Her lack of sympathy and her veiled hatred towards me comes across loud and clear. I am 'that woman' etc. I just wonder how Rachel can describe the use of inflamatory words like 'crap' and 'fucking' as polite? Because this is how Richard the Lion Heart addressed me. Charming it is not, ugly it is. I think the term is 'secondary abuse'. It looks like they want to persecute me for speaking out about Jagdeo. Maybe they want to break me so I'll shut up. They'll have to try harder. You see, apart from what happened to me, I have this little problem with pedophiles. Call me neurotic, call be deranged and unwell, but gosh I just can't stand child molesters. And the 'polite' Richard did not even have the courage to answer any of my posts. What a gentleman. Who ARE these people? Abi

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:22:29 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Abi Subject: Abi I posted that so you could see how deranged Message:

this Rachel woman is. Her warning alone shows that she has several sandwiches short of a picnic. However she is not completely typical of premie thinking. I got a long email this morning from another premie saying that your story has made him think twice and he is definitely not going to propagate K until M brings Jagdeo to justice. The saner premies all seem to be upset by your history on Lifes Great. But as I said to Jim - the sane ones will all leave the cult soon and only the diehards and nuts will be left. While they may have doubts about Dettmers they do not doubt you and pedophilia seems to be the trigger. It is obviously something that any decent person just cannot brush under the carpet. I just think you have been very brave to go public with this and to stick to your guns. It will help many to see through the lies and secrecy surrounding Rawat. Thank you.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 10:51:12 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: PatC Subject: Oh well... Message:

Dear Pat, it was pretty upsetting reading that post from Rachel. She has since offered some sort of apology on LG. I really don't think that Jagdeo will ever answer for what he has done though. Apparently he is in India somewhere and we all know what a huge place that is and how easy it is to hide. I just hope that maybe he's poor and sick and tormented and that one day when he's standing by a cliff some young children run past laughing, look at him and see that evil eye of his and feel a sudden urge to push him off the cliff. And I hope he breaks his back and spends a long time dying alone. Yuk! Abi

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 21:07:37 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Abi Subject: Abi, this is the typical response of ignorance... Message:

and that's not exclusive to premies. It's called blaming or re-victimizing the victim. Yet I don't perceive you as a carrying out a victim role in your situation. Not at all. You, Susan, and all the others who suffered so much from that horrid abuse deserve credit for surviving. I'm so sorry about your brother, too. Yet, it is quite surreal that some premies, who are supposed to be lovers of love and life and all that is good, have resorted to attacking you. Personally, I will never allow anyone to get away with that here without a response from me. It's beyond my comprehension that someone like Rachael and others have been so mean and cruel. It's denial and ignorance. From my own experience as a survivor of incest and rape I have learned to develop a thick skin about the backlash. But, I never had to deal with it inside/outside of a cult. That's why I consider you and Susan to be heroines in my book. I'm with you all the way, Abi. You can count on me. I'm moving in the next two weeks, so I've been very busy, but I will try to check in here. I validate your anger at this whole mess completely. The good news is that Jagdeo is old and won't be walking around on this planet much longer to hurt others as he hurt you. Please be well, take good care of yourself, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:44:51 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Abi Subject: I don't think he's a decent man Message:

... and I do think it's an affront to you and Susan and the memory of your brother, and every other victim out there. But there you have it. Insensitive followers of a megalomaniac narcissistic guru, who just wants them to have their own lovely experience and forget about everyone else. Who get defensive and sometimes militant when they are asked to take the moral high road and decide whether who they consider the 'source' of this good experience is a worthy object of their adulation, veneration or worship. But I'm preaching to the choir with you -- you only know this type of insensitivity too well. And as far as 'Charles'' worldly credentials, he could have easily made them up, even if he doesn't name the law firm, or the prestigious schools by name, or give us his name. Probably because if he did, he wouldn't have gone to school there, or work there. love, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 04:11:09 (GMT) From: Original Richard Email: None To: all Subject: ATTENTION: 'Richard' in this thread is not me Message:

Later in the thread he posts as Richard2 to avoid being mistaken for me. Richard the original - or perhaps I'll become Classic Richard

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 05:11:46 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Original Richard Subject: You are always my original postie! love f----n/t Message:

bbb

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:33:58 (GMT) From: Classic Richard Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Oh yes, I love it when you call me Postie! /nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:37:32 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Abi Subject: Abi, you are being disingenuous Message:

Stop painting all that Maharaji has done and all premies with your sanctimonious victim brush. That is just wrong. That demonstrates a misrepresentation of the real situation, and it shows what kind of character you are really made of. Right now I count 2 people who have stepped forward and claimed abuse by Jagdeo. Okay agreed, there is no excuse for even one case of child abuse, but 2 cases in 30 years does not represent a systemic corruption of the fundamental principles of a man or an organization, like you are representing the situation. Okay Abi you’ve been wronged. So is that your crusade in life now? And so you are willing to ally with a group of spiteful people with their own axes to grind to further your crusade while they use you to further theirs -- which by the way is not to protect the victims of child abuse. The whole thing you’re doing is crap and I don’t care if the whole fucking world sides with you, it is wrong. You are participating in the wrongful demonization of not only Maharaji but all premies, who on the whole are as sincere a group of human beings as you will find.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:33:20 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Richard Subject: Ugliness Message:

I don't want to go into all the details AGAIN on this subject. If you want to read them, and I doubt you give a shit, then read ex premie org Jagdeo page about what I have done to report Jagdeo, and what I did in the seventies and no one recalls. It isn't two victims in 30 years. There are other victims who are not willing to post here. Having to deal with ugliness like I have read here today is part of the reason they choose to keep silent. Congrats, you have done a great service Richard. EV knows well of other victims besides us. You can count on it Richard. Maharaji needs to deal with his past.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 14:48:57 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Susan Subject: Ugliness Message:

Hi Susan, can you believe this stuff? I mean, how low will they sink? They don't care at all about us or the others. All they do is pathologise, minimise, lie and abuse. It took me a long time for it to really sink in that DLM and EV had known about Jagdeo for so long. It was too disgusting to comprehend. It is horrible to think that a survivor of child abuse who is struggling with god knows what sort of awful scars would be intimidated by the ugly verbal abuse from these 'premies' into not speaking out. That sickens me. My therapist thinks these people are pathological. This cult just continues to shock me, it really does. Hope you are OK. Stay strong. Give your boy a hug. love Abi

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:41:28 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: Abi Subject: Ugliness Message:

Abi, what do you think someone who has been abused has the right to do for retribution? Anything? Do we stop the world, change the truth behind the universe? I cannot comment on why nothing has been done about your situation or if anything has been done. What is it you want Elan Vital to do? What would make it all better for you? If you want us to stand by idly as you sully inappropriately the good name of someone who for many people has done much good in this world, and denigrate an organization that has grown by the efforts of many sincere people who did so with great integrity, forget it! As a victim you do not have that right, and I for one am willing to call you on that. That is not verbal abuse my dear it is just me asserting my right to speak out against what I see as an inequitable behavior. As I said, I believe your behavior is inappropriate. I wish you all the best in getting past the damage Jagdeo has been done to you. Don’t take this challenge to what you are doing as any disrespect for you. Really.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 09:19:11 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: I need your legal advice Richard Message:

Richard or whoever you are, I am not your 'dear'. I was one of the people who contributed to the growth of the organisation you speak for. Do I have to say this yet again? Are you listening? I do not hate premies. I do not hate you. I do not hate Maharaji. I do NOT like pedophiles. In fact I HATE Jagdeo. What do you suggest Elan Vital do about Jagdeo then? Have you anything constructive to say about this matter at all? As a lawyer what do you think that Elan Vital should do? I would really appreciate your detailed feedback on this. Abigail

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:21:56 (GMT) From: Abi Email: None To: Richard Subject: sincerity Message:

Richard, first of all, I did not demonise all premies in my post. I suggest you try and get past your superficial take on everything and think a little deeper. It is probably easy for you to dismiss this site as a hate group. Reactionary positions don't take much thought. I hear endless stories of premies who are exploited and abused within Elan Vital. Their sincerity is exploited through service, through the constant demand to give money. I know premies who have been broken by all of this. From what I hear, Elan Vital is an organisation which doesn't really care very much about people. It is a tightly structured hierarchy with the majority of premies existing at the bottom to provide free labor, money, and whatever else the organisation requires of them. I don't think that the rank and file premies are bad - I just think they are exploited. Recently I watched a premie sell all of her belongings to go to Amaroo. She is a single mother and has hardly anything. It broke my heart. I was once a sincere premie. Most of the people who post here were once sincere premies. I got knowledge when I was thirteen and meditated for two hours a day, went to satsang all the time, did service, organised fund raising. I remember how the premies around me gave so much of their lives. I remember how our devotion was exploited. There is no doubt in my mind that Rawat promoted himself as God. I was there, I lived it. Why kiss his feet at Amaroo and sing Arti? I know what Arti means, I must have sung it, sincerely, a thousand times. If any group of people have been consistently demonised by Divine Light Mission and Elan Vital for the last thirty years it is the 'ex-premies'. The people you attack here were once your brothers and sisters. We are the people who once gave our lives to Maharaji. If this means nothing to you, then so be it. Your sincerity as a premie is undercut by the way you use words like 'crap' and 'fucking'. It demonstrates to me what sort of character you are. Abi

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 16:16:52 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: Abi Subject: sincerity Message:

>>Richard, first of all, I did not demonise all premies in my post. I suggest you try and get past your superficial take on everything and think a little deeper. Then you did so unconsciously. You colored Elan Vital and Maharaji as supportive of pedophilia by yours and a couple of others’ examples of abuse. It is not the norm, tolerated, or remotely common place. To imply it was, as you did, is misleading in a very dangerous way. Right now this kind of crap is being aired to a french public who are being lead by a biased press fueled by spiteful, one-sided angle of the story. Tell me, how far is it from your story to a public hatred against all things Knowledge related in France, including premies? When hatred is allowed to fester, people get hurt. >>I hear endless stories of premies who are exploited and abused within Elan Vital. Their sincerity is exploited through service, through the constant demand to give money. I know premies who have been broken by all of this. From what I hear, Elan Vital is an organisation which doesn't really care very much about people. It is a tightly structured hierarchy with the majority of premies existing at the bottom to provide free labor, money, and whatever else the organisation requires of them. “From what you hear” kinda says it all. You don’t know for yourself do you. Have you heard the saying “there are two sides to every story”? Have you taken into account the many people who have a positive story to tell? No, you have done what all ex-premies do. They write those people off as being too “brainwashed” to count. Believe me, you don’t know what you’re talking about. >>I don't think that the rank and file premies are bad - I just think they are exploited. Recently I watched a premie sell all of her belongings to go to Amaroo. She is a single mother and has hardly anything. It broke my heart. Who are you to judge? The hopes and aspirations of another human being is a personal sacred thing that you or I have no right to interfere with. If that is something that makes this woman happy, would you deny her this for the sake of “your” set of values? Remember, you may think he is fake but to me and thousands of others he is not. >>If any group of people have been consistently demonised by Divine Light Mission and Elan Vital for the last thirty years it is the 'ex-premies'. The people you attack here were once your brothers and sisters. We are the people who once gave our lives to Maharaji. If this means nothing to you, then so be it. I’m afraid you’ve it got it backwards Abi. It is you who are attacking me and your once fellow brothers and sisters by using inflammatory incidents to paint all things Knowledge related in a demonic light. And I am not attacking anybody, I am attacking what I see as extremely unconscious behavior. I will attack that kind of behavior whenever I see it, whether it be demonstrated by brother, sister, friend or foe. >>Your sincerity as a premie is undercut by the way you use words like 'crap' and 'fucking'. It demonstrates to me what sort of character you are. Get real Abi! If you think using these words has anything to do with a person’s character perhaps you need a lesson in character building yourself.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 17:17:18 (GMT) From: me Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: sincerity Message:

Richard2 said 'I am attacking what I see as extremely unconscious behaviour. I will attack that kind of behaviour whenever I see it ,whether it be demonstrated by brother,sister, friend or foe'. It is a pity you weren't there when Jagdeo was demonstrating his form of unconscious behaviour on innocent children.They certainly could have done with a champion like you on their side!

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 23:13:49 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: me Subject: sincerity Message:

Agreed.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:58:03 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Richard Subject: FA - enough is enough. Please... Message:

block this asshole forever. Never mind that 'Richard' (Charles?) has used someone else's alias - that is a minor offence. The bigger offence is not yet in the forum guidelnes. Time to act, maybe? Given the resources of courage and concern for other abuse victims which Abi and Susan must have had to summon to even make Jagdeo's crimes public, and given the kind of mistreatment they have received here from Bjorn (the prurient) and Mr Cerise (the unspeakably vile)... ..well isn't it time they were accorded the basic right to use this forum without fear of being insulted and ridiculed by anonymous cult apologists who know EXACTLY how to kick where it hurts? (And whom to kick). It's not on.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:37:12 (GMT) From: Moldy Warp Email: None To: Richard Subject: Richard - you are the dregs of mankind Message:

I don't know how you can write that poison and call yourself a human being. OH I FORGOT YOU'RE NOT A HUMAN BEING - YOU'RE A PREMIE. (Surrender the reins of integrity at the lotus feet of the living LORD...hey you're a GOOD ADVERT FOR THT AREN'T YOU BABE))

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:48:23 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Richard Subject: Richard (2) your mind is truly fucking ugly. Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:01:58 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Richard Subject: FA: We can always call him DICK!!!!!!! Message:

You fuckin idiot. How do you sleep at night?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:46:00 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: Deborah Subject: FA: We can always call him DICK!!!!!!! Message:

On my back.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 20:41:14 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Richard Subject: Use of names on this forum Message:

Richard, I am sure you are unaware that there is already a Richard who posts on this forum. I am sure you are aware, from reading the forum guidelines, that it is against forum rules to post under someone else's name. So could you please use a different name such as Richard X or some other meaningful identifier when posting in future. Regarding your post's content, you obviously haven't been reading here very long. A third Jagdeo victim has made contact with Anth (fourth including Abi's brother), so how many victims does it take for EV/DLM to take this seriously? Forum Admin

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:55:42 (GMT) From: CD Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: Use of this forum Message:

>A third Jagdeo victim has made contact with Anth (fourth including Abi's brother), so how many victims does it take for EV/DLM to take this seriously? Why do people expect EV to do what is the realm of the police? If crimes were committed and people are willing to testify then there are appropriate means to handle this case. A virtual lynch mob is not the answer. If Anth has hard facts and a sincere interest in the case, stop the talk. Do it. CD

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:22:27 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: CD Subject: Courts and police stations Message:

... are not always the first resort. This is not a clear cut 'realm of the police.' It is a short sighted solution to say 'run to the police and/or prove your case against me in a court of law before I'll pay any attention to you.' Sexual harassment is an insidious crime that can hurt people on both sides, and can't always be 'proven.' EV has not even tried to deal with this issue. Allowing EV to have a chance to deal with this and come clean is a gracious act of good faith on any aggrieved person's part. I'm assuming you don't know much about sexual harassment law, and what a difficult area of law it truly is. Many of the people on this forum, on both sides of the fence (ie exes and premies) have a very simplistic view of courts and the law. 'Talk to my lawyer,' is not the solution to all problems. If EV will not deal with this issue, Abi, Susan or anyone else has a right to any forum they choose. A court, the city square, the Internet. She has a right to pursue her remedies any way she chooses. The fact that EV would force an aggrieved premie or former premie to go to the courts rather than deal with the issue within its organization is enough to give many people pause to question the quality of the organization, and the quality of its leader. The EV people are not the only ones to blame. Rawat runs the show. --f

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:19:42 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Courts and police stations Message:

Well said, Fran. Agree with every word bar one. When you said 'sexual harrassment', didn't you mean sexual abuse? The former term is potentially ambiguous, suggesting various scenarios from the off-colour joke in the workplace to innapropriate physical contact. The latter is always physical and always damaging.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 02:28:42 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Nigel Subject: criminal v. civil Message:

At least in the US, on the criminal side (which I don't know a lot about -- Mr. Heller's the expert there), it's probably sexual abuse, i.e. against Jagdeo. Although by no means an expert myself, I think instinctively on the civil side, because that's where I've always worked. In civil cases, such as against employers or schools, such as US Supreme Court cases like Meritor v. Vinson, for example, where forcible rape by a supervisor was alleged, it was still called a sexual harassment case, i.e. against EV or the school or whatever. Different law for different parties. But point well taken as far as the true nature of the beast without the polite terminologies. bests, f

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:21:18 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: CD Subject: there's a problem with that, CD Message:

OK, say I have knowledge of a pedophile like Jagdeo, and there are victims willing to testify. What next? Where is Jagdeo? Under whose jurisdiction is he presently residing? Under what jurisdiction will he be tried? What about extradition? Who pays for that? How do we get the right people interested in bringing this man to justice? This is logistically difficult. I just don't see it happening. The best thing we can do is tell the truth about Jagdeo. But I think the victims should be compensated by EV or Mr Rawat himself as the employers responsible for the actions of Jagdeo. That's a no-brainer and I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet. But then, maybe it has...

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 13:35:27 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: gerry Subject: thanks Gerry. that's reality. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:01:44 (GMT) From: Richard 2 Email: None To: CD Subject: Amen!!! nt Message:

df

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 19:06:34 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Richard #2 Subject: Richard #2, You Don't Know the Facts... Message:

Richard #2, First, if you wish to post here fine, but you must choose another name to distinguish yourself from Richard who's been posting here for a while. Second, you said to Abi: Stop painting all that Maharaji has done and all premies with your sanctimonious victim brush. That is just wrong. That demonstrates a misrepresentation of the real situation, and it shows what kind of character you are really made of. Right now I count 2 people who have stepped forward and claimed abuse by Jagdeo. Okay agreed, there is no excuse for even one case of child abuse, but 2 cases in 30 years does not represent a systemic corruption of the fundamental principles of a man or an organization, like you are representing the situation. Richard #2, Abi is not behaving as a victim, she has survived child sexual abuse by Jagdeo. Susan and Abi are only two of many other victims. Other victims are not emotionally able to come forward right now. Why? Because it is a soul murdering thing to sexually abuse a child, that's why. Mix that in with a cult system such as Maharajism and the scene gets very foul and much more difficult to heal from. Abi has never misrepresented anything about her experiences. Abi and Susan were courageous to publish their stories on this website. Where else can they go? To EV? To Maharaji? They've done that with no satisfactory response or results. Maybe Jagdeo is old now and has given up his perverted activity, but that does not negate what he did to children in the U.S, UK, India, and who knows where else? Abi and Susan's first motivation for going public with this was to ensure that this monster was not free to abuse any more children. Is that self-serving or is it Maharaji who is self-serving by never taking responsibility for his mistakes and faults, some of which are huge. Guru Maharaj Ji and Divine Light Mission, now known as Elan Vital have done nothing but try to cover up the heinous crimes of Jagdeo. Maharaji was well aware of this when these two women reported it. Furthermore, Maharaji is the most unprincipled person I have ever met, and I spent quite a bit of time with him personally. He has done nothing but use and abuse his followers over and over again. He sent Jagdeo out of the country when reports of child abuse came out. Do you call that principled? And what about EV's legal team? What have they done other than ignore this very serious issue and here you come to ''straighten us all out.'' Wrong, Richard #2. Have you read this website? What do you think about Maharaji's womanizing with his female followers who believed he was the Lord, or God Incarnate? Is that not an abuse of power, too? Does a principled man willfully cheat on his wife again and again? What about the hit and run accident in India, reported by Michael Dettmers when Maharaji killed a pedestrian and took off--yes--a hit and run.! Is that virtuous or principled? I don't believe so, and premies would take off their Maharaji- colored glasses would understand this. What about the infamous DECA project where I personally slaved for Maharaji to build a B707 which he never even kept? Hundreds of premies slaved for him at his whim and we were slaves with no OSHA regulations, proper working hours--the whole thing was illegal from the get-go. This caused many people to suffer (to this day) from multiple toxic chemical exposure, physical and emotional exhaustion, and much more. What about his using premies' monies to satisfy his appetite for being wealthy beyond his means? Why does Maharaji need a $7 million yacht? To do propagation? He came to the west with no money to speak of and now he lives in oppulence. It's not the luxury I object to but the way he obtained it and continues to use people to support what you called a principled organization and purpose. Let him get a job or a career other than taking people's money for nothing, then I will accept his riches. No, Richard #2, you don't get to waltz into this forum and accuse Abi of using us exes to ''further her crusade'' as you put it. I know when the truth is being told. I also know a whole lot about pedophiles. Jagdeo is one, and I would guess he has abused hundreds of children of Maharaji's ''lovers'' while they trusted Maharaji to protect all of us from so-called ''maya.'' How would you feel if it were YOUR child who was abused? Maharaji continues to keep silent about a pedophile in his organization who has traveled throughout the world probably abusing countless innocent children. Maharaji is a coward because Jagdeo continues to be part of his ''organization,'' and is completely under his control. This is beyond my comprehension and beyond any level of the most basic human decency. It doesn't matter how long ago the abuse happened. In fact, usually when these crimes are committed against children, it isn't until victims/survivors reach their 30's that the healing process starts to begin. The double whammy here is a trusted ''Great Soul'' took children in dark rooms and hurt them badly. Worse, their parents trusted a very untrustworthy agent of Maharaji, and Maharaji himself. Maharaji has done nothing for these people, except to tell them they can breath, so they are alive! Richard #2, we know we are alive and don't need Maharaji to breath or even use techniques. I don't hate Maharaji. I don't hate premies, either. I have a close relative who is a premie. I am just beyond tired of his con, his lies, his undeserved wealth and his megalomania. Have you ever tried to doubt his sincerity? Try it, you may like it! As exes we have been freed from the bonds of his cult and are here to help others to exit the Maharajism cult and to discuss whatever we want here. What are you doing? Have you tried to write to Maharaji about this? I would guess no. So you come here, where you won't be censored (unless you become abusive) Never mind about contacting Maharaji or EV, he never answers to anyone but his own mind and ego. Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 22:44:15 (GMT) From: Richard 2 Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: The facts seem to be in the eye of the beholder Message:

Cynthia you have a massive chip on your shoulder and it comes through loud and clear. Neither you or Michael Dettmers or anyone else is in a position to judge Maharaji, just as he is not in a position to judge you. What happened between him and his wife is between him and his wife. And if these female premies who you accuse him of abusing were truly abused, which one of them has stood up and said so? You spent time around Maharaji and saw abuse, others have spent time with him and saw only kindness. Who is right? You? As premies we were given the opportunity to support him and I did so happily. As far as I’m concerned he was free to use my financial support however he saw fit. That’s called “no strings attached”. I remember when the yacht was purchased. Only people who had already expressed a desire to support him personally were approached. There was nothing shady about it. If you didn’t want to give that was your choice. So who are you to begrudge those of us who chose to do so? And I resent you saying he used “premies’ monies”. Whatever monies I personally gave to him became his monies. He never took a dime from me in an underhanded fashion. As for my time, it has been my pleasure to serve, as I am sure it was yours at one time. I certainly would not consider it “slave labor”. If you now look back and negate any pleasure you got from serving, that’s your loss, but realize yours wasn’t a universal sentiment. As for Jagdeo, I don’t know what is the holdup in addressing this -- I suspect it is a legal catch 22.Even so, as I said, those incidents do not color all of the good and virtuous things Maharaji has done. And most certainly neither does how he has handled his marriage or how he has chosen to spend his money.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:14:59 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Richard 2 Subject: Richard 2 - The Crux of the Matter.... Message:

Richard 2, Whether or not I have a ''chip'' on my shoulder is immaterial to the fact that you refuse to question Maharaji, his close associates, EV, and the many other companies which support him. You said: Neither you or Michael Dettmers or anyone else is in a position to judge Maharaji, just as he is not in a position to judge you. Richard 2, my question to you is why do you believe that no one is in a position to ''judge'' him? Is he infallible? Do you believe he is the Lord? Have you adopted the common thinking process (magical thinking) which is common in any cult that one never can judge the leader? You can come back with an insult such as my having a chip on my shoulder--so what? What's it to you? Does it alter your life with Maharaji? What is the need to protect him if he is beyond judgment? You refuse to answer these questions, and you obviously haven't read the EPO site. I believe you are afraid to give up your magical thinking system which has been ingrained into you since long before you took your knowledge vows. This is a dangerous way to live. And you're missing out on a hell of a lot of enjoyment by restricting yourself to him and him alone. You miss the point. Michael Dettmers was commissioned personally by Maharaji to find blonde premies for him to fuck. There is a distinct power imbalance between a premie woman (probably young) and someone who has placed himself in such a position of power, i.e., Lord of the Universe. Why is that mine to judge? Because I happened to be blonde and I don't like the fact that Maharaji was using his female followers who had a mindset at a time these things occurred, that he was their lord. That is an abuse of power in and of itself. But you don't get it. Then he just dropped them like so much shit. That's why I get to judge him. The proof? The testimony of Michael Dettmers who spent many, many years as his personal advisor. Why do I believe him over Maharaji? Because I was in a position to see how much Maharaji lies to get what he wants. But I don't expect you at this juncture to be able to think. When I was in the ashram I completely dedicated my life to him. When I needed him the most he was not there for me. Yet I always jumped at his command. He does not answer correspondence, and I don't know why. Personally, I think he is a real creep. He always complains about not getting enough ''gratitude'' for what he claims is the ''life he gave us.'' Well, what about gratitude to the premies and ex-premies who have slaved for him? Everything about DECA was illegal. I was there, I experienced it. I know ''experience'' is a key cult speak in Maharajism. If Maharaji were a real man he would never have done what he did to the premies at DECA during the 707 project. I was there through the whole thing. You were not around during the 70s. You were obviously not around during the DECA project. I was. I broke the law for him--serious violations which he was fully aware of. He had premies break the law for him countless times over during that project and I was there, I participated, and witnessed it, but I dared not question him. Why? Because I was in a cult and one ever questions the fucking the lord of the universe, that's why. And that's why you can do no more than insult people here who were innocent victims, such as Abi. You are starting to give me the creeps. I gave Maharaji everything I had and more. What help did he give me? He told me I was the worst of the worst. He told me I didn't even have a right to even talk to Maharaji or even look at Maharaji. He told me if I ever left him I would go crazy or trun into rotten vegetables. Of course, he gets away with this type of ''speak'' because he's never questioned. Why? Because he doesn't allow it, or he loses his temper like a 2 year old child in an adult body. How do I know this? Because I WAS THERE! Well, Richard 2, now we exes are questioning him. Too bad if you don't like it, but that's the way the world spins. Last time I looked we still have freedom of speech. You don't because you choose not to. I may seem to have a chip on my shoulder, but you couldn't be more wrong. I have been very happy since I left Maharaji and now because of the crimes committed against Abi, Susan, and countless other innocent children, as well as the many other crimes he has commited in the ''name of Perfect Master'' I won't stop speaking out against the outrageous way in which he has persisted in conducting himself. I don't pity him. I don't hate him. I just want him to stop being a conman and a liar. I want him to answer for his agent, Jagdeo. You, on the other hand, must protect him or else your entire believe system which Maharaji has implanted into you is at great risk. You are afraid because he has made you afraid and you don't even know it. It's obvious you are yet another premie who is so pissed off that EPO has received some publicity, and poor goomraji has been so inconvenienced (and I'm sure enraged about the France incidents) that you feel empowered to justify your accusations toward Abi by your brainwashed self within the cult. Educate yourself. Believe me, I didn't just jump ship, as goomraji would put it. It took me 25 years to rid myself of his insidious influence upon my life. Maybe you're a lifer. So be it, but don't come here blaming a survivor of child sexual abuse for Maharaji's problems. The problems Maharaji has were created by one person: Maharaji. He's a grown man now. Why all these websites about a so-called hate group? Because you are in a cult, Richard 2, that's why. Until you can wrap your brainwashed mind around that, you will be lost. He's a megalomaniac, a narcissistic brat, and a thief of lives. Chip on my shoulder? Shit no. I'm just very angry at Maharaji for stealing the prime of my life so he can live in luxury with no consideration whatsoever for the people who pay for his tab. What he has done in the past 30 years is horrendous, insidious and pretty stupid. He's not a very smart fraud. I won't be answering anymore of your posts. It's obvious to me you can't have a logical, rational, or thoughtful conversation because you are programmed, Richard 2, that means brainwashed. And leave Abi out of this, please. How dare you attack someone who was sexually abused by a Mahatma of your Guru Maharaj Ji? Have you no shame? Have you no moral backbone? Or are you like your master, a coward? No more responses from me pal. You're a brick wall with a guru up your ass. And if you think that Maharaji doesn't judge people, especially premies, you couldn't be more wrong. Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 00:13:27 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Richard 2 Subject: Facts are in the eye of the beholder--yikes!!! Message:

Who are you? And what have you done with Richard 2?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:24:13 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Richard Subject: Well, Richard, should victims of sexual abuse Message:

Well, Richard, should victims of sexual abuse just keep silent about it? Is that your advice? Surely, the first step in attempting to protect potential victims of child abuse is to inform people that there is an abuser in their midst. And to this day, Maharaji has done NOTHING about the fact that Jagdeo is still at large. And you side with the Maha on this one?

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 18:07:15 (GMT) From: Original Richard Email: None To: Richard Subject: Please note: 'Richard' in this thread is not me Message:

The person posting as 'Richard' is not the Richard who has posted here for the last half year or so. That's me. So, Newcomer Richard, please choose another screen name to avoid confusion. Thank you. Original Richard

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 17:54:18 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Richard Subject: Richard, how dare you! Message:

Richard, Who are you? If you are going to offer Abi or anyone else such unsolicited advice, then you should identify yourself. How could you possibly have the right to speak to Abi in that manner? Your post is pure crap. You should be banned.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 21:00:21 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: Way Subject: Relax Way! Message:

My post is in response to using these few incidents of child abuse to color the entire demeanor of Elan Vital and Maharaji. It is misrepresentation to the point of falsification. And yes, if Abi chooses to misrepresent the body of Maharaji’s work by these few incidents, horrible as they are, she is wrong. She is not wrong in demanding an accounting for the incidents, but she is wrong in characterizing Maharaji and premies in the sordid light that she has done. Such talk creates an impression of premies in the mind of the public that is totally wrong and harmful. As I said to clarence, if you are against hate then diffuse it, don’t promote it.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:00:56 (GMT) From: clarence clear Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: you are not listening Richard2 Message:

You are constantly focusing on Abi using what you call these few incidents of child abuse. You do not seem to have listened to the wider picture which has been presented to you by various people, nor have you responded to any of us apart from to Way and even then to have another pop at Abi. Cynthia for one has written a lengthy post outlining many more issues. You make it sound like as you say 'a few issues of child abuse' are a couple of parking offences. We are talking of extremely serious crimes here.You accuse me of hate what you are doing is hateful and as I said before cruel.Why are you accusing Abi of presenting Maharaji in a sordid light when she is simply saying how she feels about an unbalanced site, why not all of us if that is what you really think. I do not know personally about the issues which have been put forward, but I do know about my own experience which has led me to understand that I was wrong to believe in Maharaji.Why are you so worried about the impression of premies 'such talk' presents to the public. Is EV so fragile that it cannot withstand criticism. As I said before if it is so wonderful it will stand on it's merits. The proof of the pudding etc.

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Date: Thurs, Jun 28, 2001 at 23:19:02 (GMT) From: Richard2 Email: None To: clarence clear Subject: No, you are not listening Message:

Abi’s post paints a picture of systemic child abuse in Elan Vital being left unchecked, and being supported by anyone who is part of the organization. That is dangerous rhetoric, and contrary to your statement, not just harmless criticism. I for one have taken pride in my involvement with Elan Vital and have tried to exercise my duties in a responsible way with the utmost integrity. This is a common standard throughout Elan Vital. So I resent you supporting a broad-brushed attack on my character by posts like Abi’s. And I don’t care if you all think of her as some kind of saint for having been a victim, she’s not. If she hides behind her victim status to falsely characterize the people I know and love as anything less than what they are, I won’t stand for it.

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Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2001 at 14:02:27 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: No, you are deliberately not seeing Message:

as a matter of fact, 'EV and DLM DID tacitly allow Jagdeo to do exactly what he did, unchecked, to force unwanted sex on unknown numbers of children, while he was traveling freely, in venerated status as a mahatma around the world. Randy Prouty was told and he carried the message to Maharaji in the 70's. Judy Osborne was told and she took the second message to Maharaji and was told he' was relieved it was not a new incident'. BUt Jagdeo continued to live his priveleged role the same as ever.Maharaji did nothing to stop it. He gave no orders about it, he did not demote jagdeo, as he did with other mahatmas who had sex with premies, or broke his rules in any other way. You are lying to yourself about EV and maharaji. You are systematically stonewalling yourself not to call a this for what it is. EV lies. They lie for maharaji. Maharaji lies. There is no integrity there. Its all a deception.Self deception and deception to others. We know this. EV is premies, and we are old time premies too. We know from the inside what we did, what we thought, what we were told, how it worked. You can't lie to us about our lives. We lived them. We were there. We know what the lies are. The FAQ's on the EV website are lies, about our past. We have the old publications that maharaji wanted destroyed. we have our memories and our shared references. we refuse to live the deception any more. and we refuse to ignore you guys when you go on trying to feed it to us, each other and new people. your protest, of the people you decry, that you know in EV reminds me of a jethro tull song I used to sing, years ago: 'hello you straitlaced lady...dressed in white, but your shoes aren't clean...painted them up with polish, in the hopes we won't see where you've been.. EV is that lady, dressed in white with shoes unclean. fussing and putting on a great show of being proper, diverting, minimizing, trying to distract, all to cover the filth of what they've done before. no effort made to right the wrongs, to confess the truth, to integrate what was, with what is. just collude and cover up and hide and deny and lie. like it never happened. but it did, baby. we're the living proof that it did. there is nothing noble or virtuous about maharaji, and because EV lives to further his appetites, there is nothing virtuous about them, either. We are the only thing virtuous that has ever come out of maharaji and EV so far, and they are battling us tooth and nail not to blow it wide open. the french magazine is acting in completely responsible journalism. What they learned in the course of their investigation is being duly and officially handed over to the government authorities, and you can count on it to be fully pursued with all the intent of a world class nation. This is no tabloid rag that undertook this challenge. Maharaji has operated for three decades as a criminal, deliberately in purposeful breaking of the law in every nation he has set foot in, and we who were told to carry out, aid, abet, support and collude in his crimes are determined to put an end to it. that is what constitutes integrity. you don't have it. you haven't got the strength to take the step yet. a word of advice: do it voluntarily--before they come for you. It's a whole lot more clean and honorable to step out for your own reasons, than it is to be caught and prosecuted and punished, for continuing in it, once you know what you're a part of.

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:25:59 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: You are not listening Message:

I can't believe you are saying Abi hides behind a victim role. That is not true at all. Have you any idea what it means to be abused sexually at any age but as a child? I am sorry for you Richard2 you seem to have no clue and no kindness. Where is that kindness that your people talk about, hah? I know I've been in a cult. No matter what you or anybody says I know what I know and I feel what I feel and so does Abi and many, many more people who participate in this forum. May you find kindness, you seem to have none. You come across as a cruel sob. Mercedes

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Date: Fri, Jun 29, 2001 at 01:12:57 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Richard2 Subject: Time to act the rhetoric Message:

Dear Richard2, If your values and morals and the love you feel for other serving premies is worth what you feel it is, then please do something about these allegations from your side of the fence. Are you going to check out in a real way how these allegations have been treated. If you aren't then shut up and piss off because your vaunted values aren't worth anything. All arguments aside re:MJ - simply find out what you can do to clear the air from your side not get some of the victims to shut up. That is not their job. Usually it is the job of a victim to move out from under their victim role and be able to confront their abuser - which in this case is Jagdeo and by default because of lack of serious attntion MJ. What are you going to do about it - you love him, you love your fellow premies, you love the organisation - do something to prove it. Cheers Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

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