Francesca -:- He was talking to me .... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:13:01 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- You must be mistaken: He was talking to me .... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:46:59 (GMT)

Disculta -:- Incredible post from Life is Great -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:12:13 (GMT)

__ bill -:- Would someone email this to charles......nt -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 14:50:30 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- The post is riddled with both gems and bullshit -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 02:52:48 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- New Age Newspeak 101 for Jim -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 08:06:27 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- agree somewhat-yer valid points. still potent (nt -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:36:45 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- An arrow through the heart of darkness... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:30:10 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- She's still believing the PR on this point though -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:18:08 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- To tell you the truth, Francesca ... -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 01:28:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- I think Lifes Great is pretty toxic -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 04:00:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- I think Lifes Great is pretty toxic -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 15:58:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I'm glad LG exists, no doubt -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 20:07:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What a crock of shit, Katie! -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 17:22:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I think Lifes Great is pretty toxic -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 05:49:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- As long as the topic has to be M and K -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 20:02:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes and no. -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 02:16:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Tell us why your opinion should matter -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 04:53:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Why should there be any need? And who is 'us'? -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 14:37:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Stonor -- I'm glad to have you here -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:03:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks Francesca. -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:42:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- And who is 'us'? See my post to you above re -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:55:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Try speaking for yourself sometime, Pat, ... -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:54:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Lifes Great is toxic - like an overdose of sugar -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 05:00:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ such -:- saccharin+olestra!Warning:may cause analleakage(nt -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:42:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ nt -:- saccharin+olestra!Warning:may cause analleakage(nt -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:41:05 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- My thoughts exactly... -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 00:03:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ Goodygoodygirl -:- Well not exactly . . . -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 20:03:04 (GMT)

__ Bingo, GoodyGoodyGirl -:- Incredible post from Life is Great--a MUST READ -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:36:26 (GMT)

__ __ Monmot -:- The abv was from me...I screwed up the fields..nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:38:28 (GMT)

__ Brian -:- Thank you GoodyGoody Girl -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:30:45 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Thank you GoodyGoody Girl ****Best of Forum**** -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 22:04:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- ***YES, this one's a RINGER***----------n/t -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:55:37 (GMT)

__ Carl -:- Also, Prempal Rawat : READ THIS POST! -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:57:13 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- some potent sections! Everyone,please read thread -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:49:14 (GMT)

__ Disculta -:- Incredible post from Life is Great 91 more words -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:20:49 (GMT)

__ __ Daisy -:- Incredible post from Life is Great 91 more words -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:41:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- *** ALL LINKS ARE ABOVE *** -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:32:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian -:- [silent chuckles] nt -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 06:53:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ such -:- here's the link: cut 'n paste to address. (nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:52:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ such -:- http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=prem -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:53:13 (GMT)

Two Feet -:- My Story ... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 11:41:56 (GMT)

__ Patrick W -:- My Story ... -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 00:11:03 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- EXCELLENT! Repost as a new thread please...nt -:- Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 09:57:40 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- Would someone email this one to charles also....nt -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 14:59:08 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- GREAT POST PATRICK! -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 04:09:45 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Another great post Patrick -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 02:32:09 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Superb post Patrick NT -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 02:21:23 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- completely inferior:m.=drugs + alcohell hypocrite: -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:28:46 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Excellent post Two Feet,very articulate and honest -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:07:13 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- m.=sucha Fodder:‘do as I say, don’t do as I do’(nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:20:25 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Thanks, Two Feet, I hope to get to know you -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:24:52 (GMT)

__ Brian -:- Living with EV's history -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:12:39 (GMT)

__ __ Disculta -:- On exiting powerfully and the arrow of time -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 18:10:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Those who do not learn from the past... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 18:45:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- That was zen this is tao! nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:21:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Shri Sinatra Ji -:- Do. Be. Do. Be Do! (repeat) /nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:38:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- m.: doobie, doobie DO! but Dear Premies, Don't!(nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:12:10 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- Great post Brian -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 18:03:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- Great post Brian..nt -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 15:02:22 (GMT)

__ wofie -:- applause! nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 12:01:53 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- Hurrah for Two feet! Intelligent and straight. Nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 11:49:36 (GMT)

__ __ Tim G -:- Integrity in every word! Thanx 2 Feet nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:40:22 (GMT)

wolfie -:- I go to see M -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:46:54 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- Oh is't it wonderful to be here?' -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:15:01 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- makin' da hot post-partum party circuit! (nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:15:19 (GMT)

__ suchabanana -:- To:agent 007,mission=Operation Banana Cream Pie(nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:11:55 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Yes, it's hard not to be a member of the club -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:12:34 (GMT)

__ Tim G -:- Conditioned Reflexes -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:48:09 (GMT)

__ salam -:- We will be awating your return -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:23:06 (GMT)

__ Carl -:- Going to see M, with your eyes wide open -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 13:03:09 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Report From West Vancouver Front -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:53:50 (GMT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Report From West Vancouver Front -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 14:36:04 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Report From West Vancouver Front -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:12:41 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- Good to hear it Steve -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:22:29 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Hi John -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:45:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Hail Latvia -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 14:57:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Hail Latvia -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:53:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- I'm also glad to hear it, Steve -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:56:16 (GMT)

JHB -:- Reposted extract from Mike Donner re: Marolyn -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:38:38 (GMT)

__ MK -:- Sorry John, my boots are too expensive -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:33:13 (GMT)

__ __ DLG -:- That's more like it, Marolyn. Tell them! -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 02:24:25 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- MK-you are soooooooooooo convincing...NOT/nt -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 00:11:42 (GMT)

__ george -:- Reposted extract from Mike Donner re: Marolyn -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:26:54 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- the message remains the same? Lord of the Universe -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:33:38 (GMT)

__ salam -:- the message remains the same? Lord of the Universe -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:50:33 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- open up yer wallets to the universe of love... (nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:07:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Gina -:- open up yer wallets to the universe of love... (nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 13:55:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ salam -:- More, tells the rest please..nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:00:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Gina -:- Word up, Salam, here you go...rewriting 'His'story -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:02:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Very interesting historical document, Gina!!! -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:56:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Gina (rookie) -:- Oops, not nt, please do open above message -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 13:59:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ such -:- from m.:thanks a 'million' 4 yer participation (nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:02:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Gina -:- 'I mean, you already ARE just puppets.' m. 1976 -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:22:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- That was like a REAL Scary Movie! going to 'hell' -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:09:36 (GMT)

Carl -:- Question for armchair psychoanalysts: M is a human -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:42:45 (GMT)

__ Marianne -:- Be true to yourself - don't waste time on M -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:12:08 (GMT)

__ __ Carl -:- I try not to waste time on M . . . -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 06:05:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- The Stanford Experiment -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 06:18:43 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- Be true to yourself - don't waste time on M -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:26:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- donner guy... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:45:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Marianne you social butterfly... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:04:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- FA!!! ... ^^^^^^^ read Gerry's post!!!!^^^^^^(nt) -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 05:52:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- I did - and so??? -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 06:31:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- That's fast! -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:06:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- I'll write this really slowly -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 12:39:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- So sorry, I truly forgot. Thanks for patience.(nt) -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 16:47:38 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Does Rawat have a conscience -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:51:13 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- of course! he's got 'con' down to a science! (nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:35:08 (GMT)

__ __ Carl -:- Does Rawat have a conscience ??? -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:17:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Marianne's answer was really good too. Nixon OT -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:29:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Agree with Pat -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:51:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- ''Compassion'' and ''Deception'' Posts... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:58:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- These are strong medicine.Thanks for reposting /nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:22:49 (GMT)

Sandy -:- Travels with Charlie -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:07:18 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Charles: Here's hoping that you find peace, -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:42:59 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Charles: Here's hoping that you find peace in TIME -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 00:40:33 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Peace is all we can wish for anyone -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:21:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sandy -:- 'Peace be unto you' vs 'I hope you find peace' -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 15:46:32 (GMT)

Salam -:- changing Sofi to S -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 03:01:43 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Salam your last sentence didn't have any typos -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:53:56 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- I hired a proof reader -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:54:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- tell me that's a joke, Salam -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:34:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ salam -:- I wasn't aware that I had any sense of humor. -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 13:02:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Sorry -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:03:25 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- Life's Great cult gopi [gurupie] mindlessness: -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:27:38 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- You're sooo unhip, Such -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:56:02 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Doesn't That Insouciance Just Get You, Pat?nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:25:26 (GMT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- I Love You, Pat -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:34:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks Steve, I'm glad you see my goodwill -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:39:02 (GMT)

__ Carl -:- Poor kid, born too late for Sinatra or Elvis or -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:55:54 (GMT)

__ __ Gregg -:- Yo, Carl: -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:28:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Carl -:- Yo, Gregg: -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:57:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Greghg -:- Too true, Carl. Drunk on celebrity! (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:35:33 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- And It Is (not) Divine -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:45:25 (GMT)

__ Deborah -:- You had me fooled for a moment...Funny/nt -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:45:38 (GMT)

Disculta -:- I can't believe this dream I had last night -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:36:02 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- Darshan Dreams etc. -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 18:16:43 (GMT)

__ __ PatC -:- Oh Freunde! Hi, Joy. -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 18:41:09 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- I can't believe this dream I had last night -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:57:43 (GMT)

__ Lesley -:- peaceful sleep -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:28:32 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- I don't dream about Balyouguesswhat but -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:47:29 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- Rawats reinvented family roots, too. -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:07:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bob -:- Singh , does that not mean -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 06:38:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ such -:- yeah, they are sikh, sikh, sikh... (nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:08:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Carl -:- Called Kshatrya, I think, something like that /nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:42:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Mata Ji was a brahmin -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:10:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- So,Rawat family were caste climbers and racists... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:27:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- a wondering saddhu - I am tra la la la la- NOT -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:52:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Shri Hans:marrying Mata Hariji was sure Big of me! -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 18:45:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Bigamy. All knew both Hans' wives were alive -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:08:40 (GMT)

Standing on Two Feet -:- Shame on You -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 09:21:53 (GMT)

__ Timmi -:- Shame on You -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:55:37 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Both feet now on the floor -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:20:43 (GMT)

__ Lesley -:- The Emperor's new clothes -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:59:46 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- Welcome, SOTF -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 18:43:30 (GMT)

__ PatC -:- Welcome, Two Feet. Your questions -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:36:36 (GMT)

__ michael donner -:- Shame on You -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 15:44:02 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- JM, another saver............nt -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:18:37 (GMT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Question for you Mike... -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:22:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ Timmi -:- Question for you Mike... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:10:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ michael donner -:- Question for you Mike... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:56:45 (GMT)

__ __ Voyeur -:- Shame on You -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 16:06:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard II -:- Shame on You -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:58:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pedro -:- Question for richard -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 06:08:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Another question for Richard II -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 14:53:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Guess what, I dumped him BEFORE I knew this stuff -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:58:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Brava Francesca, me too! -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 18:52:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Bravo Richard, me too! -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:28:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Yes, it's good to 'cut the imbecilical cords'! /nt -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:34:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ donner -:- Shame on You -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:32:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- Shame on You -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:55:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard II -:- Shame on You -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:11:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- Shame on You -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 22:07:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- 'The Satguru shows no discrepancies...' -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:00:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Moley -:- Richard II - Maharaji - ' dealing with pressures'? -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:51:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- WHO asked YOU? You're not welcome here.... -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:36:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard II -:- Well if you are, then I'm glad I'm not welcome -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:24:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- You are full of shit! Go back and read your posts -:- Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 00:53:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Bill Clinton -:- Richard #2, where were you when I needed you? NT -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:30:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Hi Bill -:- Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:04:33 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- Welcome! Maharaji and Scotch -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:13:16 (GMT)

__ __ salam -:- it's a conspericy -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:37:15 (GMT)

__ magiclara(clarence) -:- Shame on You -:- Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 10:35:42 (GMT)

Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:13:01 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Everyone Subject: He was talking to me .... Message:

I read this little clip from today's Newsscan e-mail message (www.newsscan.com) and recalled the Ra(wa)T Poisoning. It's not all 'brainwashing.' Public speaking, persuasion and presentation and 'making it personal' are powerful tools. (I know, I know, too many peas. Sorry such, you are a dahl if you let me get away with this.) --f WORTH THINKING ABOUT: THE PERSONAL VOICE Author William Bird Jr, curator of the political history collection at the Smithsonian, says that the 'personal voice' is the one that 'sells': 'Historians have noted advertising's cultivation of a personal voice. The personal voice and its use in fending off the intrusions of an impersonal world are, in part, advertising's own. Conveying an impression of intimacy and confidence, the approach could be powerful indeed. Perhaps its most able practitioner was President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, whose inimitable style of address, the 'fireside chat,' built an audience for radio talk. A master of timing and tone, FDR, according to H. G. Wells, embodied 'the most effective transmitting instrument possible.' The characterization of the FDR talk as a fireside chat fit radio's newly won position as the focus of family attention in the home. Seated before the microphone, FDR imagined his audience individually. His audience in turn believed him to be responsible for their personal well-being and improvement. The superintendent of the White House mail room recalled that when FDR asked listeners to 'tell me your troubles,' most of them believed implicitly that he was speaking to them personally and immediately wrote him a letter.' Leila A. Sussmann, in a sample of listener correspondence in the Roosevelt Library, found that 'several writers treated these broadcasts literally as a conversation, listening and writing to 'Dear FDR' at the same time. Listeners interspersed their paragraphs with responsive comments such as, `Excuse me while I laugh at that remark you just made.'' Harold Ickes, traveling with FDR in 1936, noted the snatches of conversation he overheard from campaign crowds--on the order of 'He saved my home'--which confirmed the effect. Republicans alike acknowledged FDR's semantic gift. Republican congressional campaign pollster Claude E. Robinson, for example, noted FDR's 'marvelous sense of showmanship--use of words like 'social security,' use of channels of publicity, use of events to make the common man feel that at last he had a friend in the White House.' Others read into 'New Deal' the qualities of sportsmanship and fair play. Adman and Republican presidential campaign adviser Bruce Barton, no friend of Roosevelt's, though a dedicated practitioner of the personal technique, recommended the president's intimate method and heartfelt manner of expression to his clients. The New Deal's cumulative effect, Barton conceded after the 1936 plebiscite returned FDR to the presidency for a second term, was to impress upon the mind of the average man and woman that 'He is trying to do something for me.'' from William Bird Jr.'s 'Better Living: Advertising, Media, and the New Vocabulary of Business Leadership, 1935-1955.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:46:59 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Francesca Subject: You must be mistaken: He was talking to me .... Message:

Nice post Francesca! Kinda reminds us about M and the intimacy each prem felt during Programs or Off-program darshan, doesn't it? Notice how prems talk about their intimacy w/M ...it's not comprehensible that M is not a real part of their life. That's why they are dumb founded when we ask them to repeat M's words---M's not their teacher, M's their FDR. Obviously! FDR had more to offer than the BigHead Stay well!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:12:13 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Incredible post from Life is Great Message:

The other Katie just e-mailed me and referred me to this brilliant post on Life is Great by someone called 'the GoodyGoody Girl.' It's quite mind-blowing and very long. I highly recommend printing it out and learning it by heart;–) Here it is: What Happened Maharaji??? From my experience of old timers, even older than myself and I have had K for 22 years, I can see how those guys were really screwed up by the way the organisation was then, in the way that it treated people who were really, really inspired. We have been through years of unlimited servitude and servility through years of being pushed around and destroyed on many levels. To have believed that something was so pure and holy and good all these years and then suddenly find that its all pooh, not pure is a great shock to the system. Even now when I know that I am on the other side of devotion, when I see pictures of Maharaji my heart still wants to believe. Yet with M all my personal nightmares were starting to come true. It is almost as if M switched our whole consciousness around and we went into reverse psychology. Believe the psychologists then, what M did was to make our own humanness toxic to ourselves. “Toxic” at this point is an appropriate description of what has happened to all those ex’s who are really angry and screaming and shouting on the “toxic” web-sites, for in fact, this is what M has created, through his mind manipulation of the masses. They have nowhere else to go. My own feeling therefore is that I could be angry, my life too had spun out of my control, but far more constructive is my feeling to try and understand the damage. We have to be clear and really zipped out and do some healing for ourselves. Without some positive movement we may well continue in stalemate. If what M has is power, and if that power has been in some way extended to the whole world, through us as channels. How responsible then are we for what we have in a society that is based on blame and lawlessness without contention. This is the way in which M has behaved in his belief that he is above and beyond reproach in this life. Leading us into confusion by his revisionist structure. That is, he kept moving the goalposts so that we never knew where we really were. We were never good enough, we’d never get it, etc etc etc. My understanding so far leads me to believe that by denying our own feelings, in the light that we were supposed to be experiencing something else, “holy name, this experience” we in reality suppressed our emotional body. The consequences as we well know were the break up of so many marriages and relationships, time and time again. Not just because M encouraged us to believe that relationships were of no value, and that it was his treasure that we should be experiencing, but because on another level we were actually not allowed to experience our own true feelings about any given situation. What does seem to be true is that we are here as human beings with a soul to reconnect with and recognise that soul. To deal with the issues that our soul has to deal with in this lifetime, and to follow our soul’s destiny. We did believe, to some greater or lesser extent, when M came along our soul recognised that its destiny was being shown to us through the K that M was giving us. Some deep part of ourselves knew that, wanted that. Perhaps M's souls' issue is integrity. Has M has manipulated this understanding for his own purposes? Followers were not told that the ashrams were closed because Mata Ji did take M to court, she won, and the ashram ordered to be closed, whereupon M created Elan Vital. Any information that is withheld from its followers in order to serve its own hierarchical purpose is deemed as a cult. We have to understand how misinformed we were. That deception has taken place time and time again. So far not only was our emotional body being suppressed and channelled into M’s world, but our intellectual faculties were being derided constantly as well. In our misunderstanding we began to blame the world, M encouraged us to leave the world behind perhaps the knock on effect in the world has been truly enormous. Intellectually too, we were led to trivialise and adopt an approach that the world was another thing not to be trusted, we became insiders to some secret society of enlightened beings. What in fact we became were outsiders to society, in the same vein that ethnic minorities do not feel as if they fit in, or that drug addicts feel that they do not belong to the world. A state of being which in psychological terms is not producing integrated human behaviour. But even worse, we became outsiders in our own lives. Many P’s are still not integrated into the world, and having problems of dysfunction. In a society that already runs high on blame, M encouraged us to blame. First and foremost ourselves for “never getting it right”, and then the world for “always getting it wrong.” So we did, we blamed our partners, parents, children and colleagues for not having this K, for not understanding that they needed a Master. We channelled a lot of very strong negative concepts back into the “world” on behalf of M, of course, and love and light and peace. Meanwhile we were never really there for the world, just for M. Blame culture is destroying our society. The counterbalance to blame is credit, and that is precisely what M never gave us, credit. Always trivialization and denouncement of human values and achievements; ethical behaviour and codes of conduct were relinquished and the “anything goes” attitude became prevalent within the movement. We ceased to believe that Mankind’s history, and the culture of mankind had anything to do with the future; that we might be creating our own destiny that we were responsible human beings, responsible to each other and society as a whole. Coupled with the Thatcher/Reagan era of “there is no such thing as society” we were led all the way to destruction of moral and ethical behaviour within our communities and society as a whole. In terms of our own personal relationships, what we are left with is not a community that is self-sufficient but a lot of distraught single people who have no way left of being able to interact with the opposite sex without in some way being seen to be “needy.” M created that neediness in us. By continuously suppressing our emotions, our emotional bodies craved emotional contact, when that occurred we were like starved beings who were suddenly let loose at a banquet. Blame culture enables beings to empower the dysfunction of male/female relationships. People wanting love are deemed to be “needy” and everyone now is supposed to be self-sufficient and not needing to be coupled in the misconception that to be alone is the right way. How much of this resounds of M’s discourses about the way to true enlightenment. The point that is missing is that men have always needed women to make concrete their ideas, men are creatures of ideas and women are creatures of nurturing. Therefore life has always worked by man being nurtured by women, allowing him to make concrete those ideas, whilst woman has been taken care of by and protected by man for being able to concretise those ideas through her nurture. Nothing new or strange there. A fair and fundamental exchange. That quick aggressive response so normal in today’s society, is parallel to the quick aggressive response we so often felt and heard at the “lotus feet.” Directed at us was a huge amount of anger sometimes passive, but in order to cope we became more and more and more out of sync with our emotional bodies. Any normal human reaction would have been to get angry back at someone being angry with us, yet what we learnt was to be “nice” really nice, really, really nice. To all sorts of inappropriate situations, in my life I should have reacted differently, but instead had learnt to be “nice” because hey, surely this would lead people to think that we were in peace and love. By being nice my emotional body became completely unbalanced. If we already had dysfunction to begin with, then the teachings of M amplified that, and what started as a minor groove, became a trench from which we could not see out of, from which we were fighting the world and ourselves. What we had lost at that point was a sense of ourselves. We do have to function in this world, there is no question of it, as the ashrams were closed there was nowhere to retreat. We wanted to feel comfortable at the time with this dysfunction. As so many people had come out of the love and peace era and were still taking drugs it all seemed to fit together. At some point I believe that M should have allowed us and K (which remember originally was called self-K) to become integrated in a more holistic and positive way, creating functional people, as in the beginning - the medical house, education house, etc. He had the gift of love and devotion from thousands of people that could have changed the world and yet he chose to conduct his teachings in a way that led to self-glorification and one would imagine self-gratification. He changed from Guru, to Master. We were no longer premies but students. We had been given no choice in his revisions of the movement. For me the debate is not even about whether M is God or not, it is about the socio-cultural implications that his teachings have had on the lives of his followers, and the extent to which his teachings have been interpreted and misinterpreted and channelled out into society. What we are experiencing now in socio-cultural terms is the alienation and outlawing of anything that appears to be a cult. This is what is happened in the French incident. Generally because cults have been seen to be destructive, (from Manson, to the cult in Switzerland and their belief in Haley Bopp.) The governments of the world, but in Europe at the moment in particular will not be allowing cults to exist. In terms of free speech and non-destructive movements with benign intentions, this again poses the question of civil liberties being eroded once more in terms of further stringent control on any form of organisation. One gets this sense from looking at the web, its appears that there are many cult escapees, not just exes, but Jehovahs, Hare krisna’s etc etc etc. All complaining about mind control. Government would appear to promote the corporate identity of normality, hence globalisation, and what appears to be individuality is now an area of questionable debate. As I recall the very essence of M’s teachings were originally about the individual. What happened. We now see the organisation running around with their clipboards, albeit metaphorical ones, trying to tell the rest of us how it is or should be. At what point did we lose all sense of our own interpretation to our lives, insofar as I now need someone to tell me how it is. We always fail in the eyes of M, and therefore we have been diminished, sadly many P’s to a point of nothingness, I personally have known 3 P’s who suicided themselves over the years because they thought they couldn’t “get it.” Diminished, for in essence, what was a drip of K. Even practising made our lives a distant thing. For many that disengagement and denial carries on, therefore making it easier to dismiss everything because hey, “it doesn’t matter it’s only the world.” Yes only the world but this made it even more difficult for us to live in it. Therefore the manipulation was twofold. First we suppressed our emotions by giving everything to M and K, thereby not identifying with what we really did feel and think about our actual reality or the situation that was going on at that point, in favour of making connections, with, to, or by M. Therefore it was a self-fulfilling prophecy our lives did turn upside down, nothing did work because we had not paid our lives any proper attention in the first place. It is what we created ourselves by not responding appropriately in the first place. Steiner, the well known educationalist wrote as far back as the 20’s that if one were to distract one’s mind from the actual reality of a situation, then a solution would be able to manifest through the Universe. No original thinking there on the wonders of meditation. Jung wrote about synchronicity. So instead of making healthy connections with situations in our lives, M deliberately disallowed any functional connections to be made, in fact setting out to make sure that nothing of any value lasted from one discourse to the next, therefore always disrupting the process of life itself. It is an absolute necessity to make connections, personal, within connections of our own sense of ourselves, right through to connections with family, friends, community. Without family we cannot learn how moral behaviour works. Without love we are desperate human beings. It is still what the majority want, is love and be loved. Yet with misinterpretation in the modern world this has become sex. Without codes of behaviour learnt from within the family and that experience of love, then extended outwards, we have the model for society breaking down through lack of purpose, function, humanity. Without connections we would live in an isolated world of sorrow and malaise, eventually leading to disease – dis-ease. At that point of un-ease we were told it was our fault yet again, M reminded us how incapable we were of getting it right. Yet again told to go inside more, yet again more isolation. Yet again pay our dues to our Master, then our un-ease would be filled with bliss. We never dealt with our un-ease. Neither did M. M disempowered us time and time again, without his authority we were nothing. Perhaps through his own Indian ignorance, perhaps by not realising the complexity of the Western mind. The level of sophistication that the Western mind had already reached was not so easily dismissable. M’s ultimate and most powerful weapon was in dismissing our mind and concepts. It is not possible to carry on living without judgement. You have to know how to cross the road, tie your bootlaces, find out how much the shopping costs. Man’s mind has been his greatest asset. Given a moral code of behaviour and ethics, Mankind has made enormous progress from the days of swinging a club and landing a bison. For sure, we understand that man’s mind can be used for evil intentions, but usually through lack. Lack of money, sense, understanding or dysfunction of some more serious kind. What happened to honour, nobility, hope, courage, perseverance - the vital ingredients of crossing Antarctica, climbing Mount Everest, discovering penicillin, and what indeed is wrong with those aesthetic qualities in mankind. We now have dismissed so many positive human values in favour of greed, opportunity, triumph. So the Grand Slam. Nothing we ever think is right, its only a concept and nothing we ever feel is true or valid or justifiable in the face of the great experience of K, or more recently should I say the Master. By now subjugated to his every word for guidance, how many of us acted and performed our lives through the mesh of M. His dictum being the only right dictum. And now the nail that really hammered us into the coffin, the one about K being the Most Important Thing, for those of us old enough to remember that. So we grew up and nothing was more important. Not our minds, concepts, families, emotions, jobs, nothing. This is how he kept people hooked into his world. Ultimately, this is abuse, on a conscious or subconscious level that we plugged into for many years because we believed it was the most important thing. Catch 22. Inevitably at times of death, ill health and poverty we never were given any straws to grasp that were tangible. Wishy-washy sayings stolen from the Gita that “even in your darkest hour I will always be there.” How far from the truth is that. M could have seen people individually, had smaller events, praised people more, validated their experience, really shared that love if that is what he had. Not much solace in a world by now full of tragic consequences. What happened to benevolence? M never expanded on the spirituality of our souls and allowed us to live in the world as fully integrated beings. Instead by pooh, poohing and trivialising this life, the world as we know it, untold damage to millions of life has been done through his small-minded and greedy way. By using his army of devotees to channel attitudes of lawlessness and unimportance to life in other forms, that were not to do with him and our breath. Attitudes were put out that are just not concurrent with normal human behaviour. We have over-ridden queues, negated our family life, invalidated everything as mind, put out the wrong code of ethics on mass, to a globe absolutely ripe for a larger dose of darkness, but more cynical, it was all done under the guise of “love and light.” What began with pushing down the boundaries of the Old Age in the 60’s, ended up with M destroying all the boundaries within ourselves and our lives to a point where many of us have been left without even being able to make a right decision. Slaves to a Master. Empty, soulless shells that needed their Master to tell them what and how to do it. Hence the organisation. Is this really enlightenment? Did M himself become misguided. For most of us we have woken up and smelt the coffee. Looked at our lives and realised that indeed knowledge never gave us anything to do with our lives in the material world, but for some their material world was already in place, and yet for many their spiritual lives are no richer either. Because they are not experiencing love. Many have been left unfulfilled, unhappy because of loneliness, debt, ill health. In fact, looking around and seeing that we are normal human beings like everybody else, that what makes us happy is the same as everybody else. LOVE. Solvency, health. The feeling of being loved and giving love and that is what is missing in M’s world now. That two-way exchange of love and energy does make us bigger in our lives. We grow then. Given that I have a power as a human being to make changes through my own personal choices and understanding. It is vitally important to get it right in my life for me, and for the world as a whole. We are creating our lives, we are creating our future, creating our children’s future. To be exacting, getting the details right without harming myself, to get it right for the common good, to put my family first, to live my life with a set of values and moral ethics in place is right for me. What I can do now is reintegrate my life. The world is in regression. Economically yes, perhaps socio-culturally as well. Regression is far more sinister than recession To put my family first, to aid their survival; to stop blaming mother and thereafter all women for all the wrongs in my life. In essence to stop blame culture. M always taught us to blame the world for everything that was wrong, as if we weren’t a part of it. To really stop and see that we have got the power of healing and good energies flowing through our lives. To stop accepting abuse, to stop and really intend to get the best for our lives, in a proper way, and by proxy that extending out into the planet.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 14:50:30 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Would someone email this to charles......nt Message:

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 02:52:48 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Disculta Subject: The post is riddled with both gems and bullshit Message:

From my experience of old timers, even older than myself and I have had K for 22 years, I can see how those guys were really screwed up by the way the organisation was then, in the way that it treated people who were really, really inspired. Screwed, yes. Screwed up, no, not necessarily. Small point were it not for the fact that she picks up the theme later with that 'toxic' stuff. We have been through years of unlimited servitude and servility through years of being pushed around and destroyed on many levels. To have believed that something was so pure and holy and good all these years and then suddenly find that its all pooh, not pure is a great shock to the system. Even now when I know that I am on the other side of devotion, when I see pictures of Maharaji my heart still wants to believe. Yet with M all my personal nightmares were starting to come true. It is almost as if M switched our whole consciousness around and we went into reverse psychology. Believe the psychologists then, what M did was to make our own humanness toxic to ourselves. “Toxic” at this point is an appropriate description of what has happened to all those ex’s who are really angry and screaming and shouting on the “toxic” web-sites, for in fact, this is what M has created, through his mind manipulation of the masses. They have nowhere else to go. My own feeling therefore is that I could be angry, my life too had spun out of my control, but far more constructive is my feeling to try and understand the damage. Anger here's natural AND constructive. Good, all-purpose cleaner. We have to be clear and really zipped out and do some healing for ourselves. Without some positive movement we may well continue in stalemate. If what M has is power, and if that power has been in some way extended to the whole world, through us as channels. How responsible then are we for what we have in a society that is based on blame and lawlessness without contention. This is the way in which M has behaved in his belief that he is above and beyond reproach in this life. The assumption that m has 'power' and her following concerns leave me cold. M has nothing we didn't give him. Nothing. Leading us into confusion by his revisionist structure. That is, he kept moving the goalposts so that we never knew where we really were. We were never good enough, we’d never get it, etc etc etc. My understanding so far leads me to believe that by denying our own feelings, in the light that we were supposed to be experiencing something else, “holy name, this experience” we in reality suppressed our emotional body. The consequences as we well know were the break up of so many marriages and relationships, time and time again. Not just because M encouraged us to believe that relationships were of no value, and that it was his treasure that we should be experiencing, but because on another level we were actually not allowed to experience our own true feelings about any given situation. Like so much of what she says, this is all agreeable to me until she gets into new agey ideas like 'emotional body'. Don't buy it, myyself, although I know many of you do. What does seem to be true is that we are here as human beings with a soul to reconnect with and recognise that soul. To deal with the issues that our soul has to deal with in this lifetime, and to follow our soul’s destiny. We did believe, to some greater or lesser extent, when M came along our soul recognised that its destiny was being shown to us through the K that M was giving us. Some deep part of ourselves knew that, wanted that. Yeah, right. You KNOW what I think of this stuff. Too new agey by far. Perhaps M's souls' issue is integrity. Perhaps he's a fallen angel. Has M has manipulated this understanding for his own purposes? Followers were not told that the ashrams were closed because Mata Ji did take M to court, she won, and the ashram ordered to be closed, whereupon M created Elan Vital. Any information that is withheld from its followers in order to serve its own hierarchical purpose is deemed as a cult. We have to understand how misinformed we were. That deception has taken place time and time again. She's got the history wrong. Ashrams were closed long after the legal fight in India. So far not only was our emotional body being suppressed and channelled into M’s world, but our intellectual faculties were being derided constantly as well. In our misunderstanding we began to blame the world, M encouraged us to leave the world behind perhaps the knock on effect in the world has been truly enormous. Intellectually too, we were led to trivialise and adopt an approach that the world was another thing not to be trusted, we became insiders to some secret society of enlightened beings. What in fact we became were outsiders to society, in the same vein that ethnic minorities do not feel as if they fit in, or that drug addicts feel that they do not belong to the world. A state of being which in psychological terms is not producing integrated human behaviour. But even worse, we became outsiders in our own lives. Many P’s are still not integrated into the world, and having problems of dysfunction. Not sure about this 'emotional body' and later 'dysfunction' stuff but we were definitely outsiders alright. However, it's not as if we were ever persecuted as such so I don't know how helpful the minorities analogy is. We were smug in our sense of superiority more than anything else. In a society that already runs high on blame, M encouraged us to blame. First and foremost ourselves for “never getting it right”, and then the world for “always getting it wrong.” So we did, we blamed our partners, parents, children and colleagues for not having this K, for not understanding that they needed a Master. We channelled a lot of very strong negative concepts back into the “world” on behalf of M, of course, and love and light and peace. Meanwhile we were never really there for the world, just for M. Alright. Blame culture is destroying our society. The counterbalance to blame is credit, and that is precisely what M never gave us, credit. Always trivialization and denouncement of human values and achievements; ethical behaviour and codes of conduct were relinquished and the “anything goes” attitude became prevalent within the movement. We ceased to believe that Mankind’s history, and the culture of mankind had anything to do with the future; that we might be creating our own destiny that we were responsible human beings, responsible to each other and society as a whole. Coupled with the Thatcher/Reagan era of “there is no such thing as society” we were led all the way to destruction of moral and ethical behaviour within our communities and society as a whole. Good and true except for the first sentence. What's 'blame culture' and how is it destroying our society? Sounds a little hokey to me. Likewise, what's with this 'there is no society' stuff? In terms of our own personal relationships, what we are left with is not a community that is self-sufficient but a lot of distraught single people who have no way left of being able to interact with the opposite sex without in some way being seen to be “needy.” M created that neediness in us. By continuously suppressing our emotions, our emotional bodies craved emotional contact, when that occurred we were like starved beings who were suddenly let loose at a banquet. I thought the whole point of attraction to the opposite sex IS neediness? We ARE needy. Nothing wrong with that. Denying it was the mindfuck. Blame culture enables beings to empower the dysfunction of male/female relationships. People wanting love are deemed to be “needy” and everyone now is supposed to be self-sufficient and not needing to be coupled in the misconception that to be alone is the right way. How much of this resounds of M’s discourses about the way to true enlightenment. The point that is missing is that men have always needed women to make concrete their ideas, men are creatures of ideas and women are creatures of nurturing. Therefore life has always worked by man being nurtured by women, allowing him to make concrete those ideas, whilst woman has been taken care of by and protected by man for being able to concretise those ideas through her nurture. Nothing new or strange there. A fair and fundamental exchange. That quick aggressive response so normal in today’s society, is parallel to the quick aggressive response we so often felt and heard at the “lotus feet.” Directed at us was a huge amount of anger sometimes passive, but in order to cope we became more and more and more out of sync with our emotional bodies. Any normal human reaction would have been to get angry back at someone being angry with us, yet what we learnt was to be “nice” really nice, really, really nice. To all sorts of inappropriate situations, in my life I should have reacted differently, but instead had learnt to be “nice” because hey, surely this would lead people to think that we were in peace and love. By being nice my emotional body became completely unbalanced. Agree that suppressed emotions can be bad; again, don't know about this 'emotional body' stuff. Where's it come from anyway? If we already had dysfunction to begin with, then the teachings of M amplified that, and what started as a minor groove, became a trench from which we could not see out of, from which we were fighting the world and ourselves. What we had lost at that point was a sense of ourselves. We do have to function in this world, there is no question of it, as the ashrams were closed there was nowhere to retreat. We wanted to feel comfortable at the time with this dysfunction. As so many people had come out of the love and peace era and were still taking drugs it all seemed to fit together. At some point I believe that M should have allowed us and K (which remember originally was called self-K) to become integrated in a more holistic and positive way, creating functional people, as in the beginning - the medical house, education house, etc. He had the gift of love and devotion from thousands of people that could have changed the world and yet he chose to conduct his teachings in a way that led to self-glorification and one would imagine self-gratification. He changed from Guru, to Master. We were no longer premies but students. We had been given no choice in his revisions of the movement. Not sure what she's talking about here except I must say that K, in its original form, was no more integratable in life, holistically or otherwise, than you'd expect a mind poison to be. And that's what k was, supposedly, the antidote to the mind. In any event, I don't buy any of it so I can't be too concerned about the lost opportunity of integrating K into the world for the benefit of all. For me the debate is not even about whether M is God or not, it is about the socio-cultural implications that his teachings have had on the lives of his followers, and the extent to which his teachings have been interpreted and misinterpreted and channelled out into society. Well, this is pretty vague. What is she saying? That m's teachings were good somehow but got corrupted in the interpretation? Hey, anyone that thinks that needs to go read Nas Yog Prakash a bit. It's a severe hindu human sacrifice trip, this K stuff. Either you buy into it or you don't but there aren't too many ways to slice it. What we are experiencing now in socio-cultural terms is the alienation and outlawing of anything that appears to be a cult. This is what is happened in the French incident. Generally because cults have been seen to be destructive, (from Manson, to the cult in Switzerland and their belief in Haley Bopp.) The governments of the world, but in Europe at the moment in particular will not be allowing cults to exist. That's a bit of a hasty conclusion, I'd say. In terms of free speech and non-destructive movements with benign intentions, this again poses the question of civil liberties being eroded once more in terms of further stringent control on any form of organisation. One gets this sense from looking at the web, its appears that there are many cult escapees, not just exes, but Jehovahs, Hare krisna’s etc etc etc. All complaining about mind control. Government would appear to promote the corporate identity of normality, hence globalisation, and what appears to be individuality is now an area of questionable debate. Sorry, but the more I read this post the more I think this woman's just a little confused. She's got it all mixed in there, the governmental conspiracy to promote 'corporate identity of normality' ... not sure what she's really concerned about here. Is she? As I recall the very essence of M’s teachings were originally about the individual. What happened. We now see the organisation running around with their clipboards, albeit metaphorical ones, trying to tell the rest of us how it is or should be. At what point did we lose all sense of our own interpretation to our lives, insofar as I now need someone to tell me how it is. Sorry, the very essence of m's teachings, as I recall, were the transcendence of the individual. But I agree that, any which way you cut it, it's fucked. We always fail in the eyes of M, and therefore we have been diminished, sadly many P’s to a point of nothingness, I personally have known 3 P’s who suicided themselves over the years because they thought they couldn’t “get it.” Diminished, for in essence, what was a drip of K. Even practising made our lives a distant thing. For many that disengagement and denial carries on, therefore making it easier to dismiss everything because hey, “it doesn’t matter it’s only the world.” Yes only the world but this made it even more difficult for us to live in it. Therefore the manipulation was twofold. First we suppressed our emotions by giving everything to M and K, thereby not identifying with what we really did feel and think about our actual reality or the situation that was going on at that point, in favour of making connections, with, to, or by M. Therefore it was a self-fulfilling prophecy our lives did turn upside down, nothing did work because we had not paid our lives any proper attention in the first place. It is what we created ourselves by not responding appropriately in the first place. Agree with all that. Sad. Steiner, the well known educationalist wrote as far back as the 20’s that if one were to distract one’s mind from the actual reality of a situation, then a solution would be able to manifest through the Universe. No original thinking there on the wonders of meditation. Jung wrote about synchronicity. Imagine a dinner party with Steiner, Gurdjieff, Ouspensky and Jung. Yes, even Jung. Lots of hot air, fancy shmantzy words and ...what? Nothing? Maybe. So instead of making healthy connections with situations in our lives, M deliberately disallowed any functional connections to be made, in fact setting out to make sure that nothing of any value lasted from one discourse to the next, therefore always disrupting the process of life itself. It is an absolute necessity to make connections, personal, within connections of our own sense of ourselves, right through to connections with family, friends, community. Without family we cannot learn how moral behaviour works. Without love we are desperate human beings. It is still what the majority want, is love and be loved. Yet with misinterpretation in the modern world this has become sex. Without codes of behaviour learnt from within the family and that experience of love, then extended outwards, we have the model for society breaking down through lack of purpose, function, humanity. I don't buy this slam against the modern world as the corruptor of love in favour of sex. Sounds romantic, though, I'll give her that. The rest of the post is better, especially as she describes the real cost m exacted from us.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 08:06:27 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: New Age Newspeak 101 for Jim Message:

''Blame culture'' is the buzz phrase of boomer parents and teachers expressing their regret at having encouraged their brats to express their chagrin at not getting their own way all the time as envy, self-pity and resentment. ''Emotional body'' is a truly ugly expression mixing poetry and anatomy in the vernacular of therapists. It means all the thrills and tingles and feelings the body has when it responds to sensational (in the old meaning) and imaginary stimuli. Why poetry had to be anatomized I don't know. Perhaps it's because we're made out of meat. As for the rest I don't know that's 102 stuff. The essay was a parson's egg.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:36:45 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Jim Subject: agree somewhat-yer valid points. still potent (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:30:10 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Disculta Subject: An arrow through the heart of darkness... Message:

...shot by an old trooper . Thanks for that one ggg. Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:18:08 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Disculta Subject: She's still believing the PR on this point though Message:

GoodyGoody Girl said: “Toxic” at this point is an appropriate description of what has happened to all those ex’s who are really angry and screaming and shouting on the “toxic” web-sites, for in fact, this is what M has created, through his mind manipulation of the masses. They have nowhere else to go. I think that some newly minted exes are getting some toxics out of there system, but to brand the entire Forum (what else could she be referring to besides FV and AG) toxic, she's obviously convinced herself this is a terrible place for a mind to waste. Toxic websites? Hate club? And she says that: They have nowhere else to go. as if coming to FV was a fate worse than death, a court of last resort. I know I am nitpicking, but everyone was getting a bit overenamored of the post. (Nitpicker: that's my JOB.) I hope GoodyGoody Girl can quit listening to the PR and come on over to FV, but, truth be told she's doing a good job right where she is. If she gets too friendly with us, the 'Lifes a Foot' crowd will brand her as a member of the hate club, not worth listening to. --f

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 01:28:31 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Francesca Subject: To tell you the truth, Francesca ... Message:

I have found this forum to be pretty toxic at times. I wish goodygoodygirl would post here too, but I didn't urge her to, because I know that some of the people here would object to at least some of the things she said in that post. Anyway, I understand why she said that.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 04:00:48 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Katie Subject: I think Lifes Great is pretty toxic Message:

But different strokes for different folks. I'm glad it exists, however. Whenever I've lurked there I've heard such horrible things about FV that I've gotten pretty disgusted with it. In broad brushing this a 'hate club,' they've created one of their own. Usually works that way, doesn't it? I do like the idea of less personal attacks though. bests, f

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 15:58:46 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Francesca Subject: I think Lifes Great is pretty toxic Message:

Well, at least half of the people posting there now are EX-premies :). Seriously, I think some premies have fixed ideas about Forum 5 being a 'hate club' or 'hate group', and won't change them no matter what. But others do not, and are honest about their feelings about what they see here, and are willing to discuss them. I generally don't read, or am not bothered by, the satsang over there. It IS a premie forum, after all. I AM glad that there is a place where premies can post what they think and feel and communicate with each other. They used to do it a bit on Forum5 (in a previous incarnation), but obviously that is not possible now. Love to you, f - Katie

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 20:07:22 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Katie Subject: I'm glad LG exists, no doubt Message:

And you're right that there are more exes posting there than before. I also agree that we're not going to change their minds, and some of them (like Carlos) actually said some good things about the posters here along with his criticisms, so he obviously lurks enough. And even Catweasel did not paint every poster on FV with a broad brush. The cross polination won't hurt. I guess I'm just sick of the subject, but I'm glad Forum V is here, especially after reading Michael Dettmers post (above) that was posted by Nige. Even Dettmers did a 180 after he thought he'd 'moved on.' We never totally move on. Everything we ever did is a part of us, paradigm shifts, evolution and all that. I like Richard's analogy above of running off to join the circus (M & K) and ending up with a neat tattoo, and a story to tell. Becoming a part of the whole thing was not the worst thing that could have happened to me, and at least the whole trip was out in the open then, not like now. love, f

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 17:22:35 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: What a crock of shit, Katie! Message:

I AM glad that there is a place where premies can post what they think and feel and communicate with each other. They used to do it a bit on Forum5 (in a previous incarnation), but obviously that is not possible now. This is such bullshit. The only thing that's changed over time is that the case against m, evidence-wise, has gotten stronger. Former PAMs coming forward with stunning disclosure, m's cowardly lies in response, more quotes and archival stuff and all of the excellent analysis from the ever-increasing number of smart, thinking exes, has all made it that much harder for premies to 'represent' for m here. It's ridiculous to see you wringing your hands for a time when there wasn't as much evidence and the premies could lie better accordingly. You make it sound as if we've cut off their honest expression somehow. That's crazy.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 05:49:01 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: stonor21@hotmail.com To: Francesca Subject: I think Lifes Great is pretty toxic Message:

I agree with both you and Katie ... remember that 'Certs' ad? There are parallels, but Francesca, LG used to be a place where we could work things out in relative private. It was really helpful for me to work out a misunderstanding there, and I know Katie knows exactly what I'm referring to. Recently it has become decidedly polarized, but before then, as PatC learned, it was mostly exes and non-anythings, and before then, who knows what. It's quite fascinating how fluid it all is, and how important each of our voices is in each context, even if it isn't apparent to us at the time. And why is it always premies and ex-premies ... when do premies and exes become part of humanity in general again? Isn't that the point that Katie is trying to make at times? That is what is 'toxic' for me, this 'us' and 'them' stuff, and I think it is for most human beings, if they get a chance to think about it. Much love to you Francesca, I've enjoyed reading your posts, and talking to you a couple of times. I've posted my email address above, in case you ever land in Montreal. Anna

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 20:02:31 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: notinherent@yahoo.com To: Stonor Subject: As long as the topic has to be M and K Message:

It will always be premie and expremie unforunately. Which is why I'll probably be spending a lot less time on this Forum. Kinda sicka the subject! I don't like the us and them, and I can socialize perfectly well with the few premies I still am very close to, but we don't get right in the middle of the K and M thing. Here or on Lifes Great, it's unavoidable, as that's the subject. Thanks for the e-mail, mine's above as well. love, f

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 02:16:39 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Yes and no. Message:

It wasn't always like this here. Last year there were a lot more interesting 'ot' threads, which is one reason why I got more involved than I might have. PatC mentioned when he 'broke free' that it was some of the OT stuff that helped him to do so. It's been sad for me to see a lot of the less 'narrow-minded' people leave over the last 6 - 8 months or so ... usually because they got sick of the high level of overt-aggression. It's sad to me because I really feel that a less intimidating atmosphere would be more conducive for many more to leave the cult, especially those who are already borderline. You could try doing more selective reading and posting, as I've generally been doing for the last 6 months. People used to post some great links here, too. I don't see much of that at all anymore. Thanks for the e-mail! I don't have much time or money for travel since I started paying a mortgage etc., but you never know! And if you come across something interesting on the web, I'd love to hear about it! Anna :)

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 04:53:49 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Tell us why your opinion should matter Message:

You are not a premie. You never were a premie. You're not married to a premie. Your parents aren't premies. Your kids aren't premies. Why the fuck should anyoen give a shit about anything you say? What in the world are you even doing here? Listen, what you're calling 'narrow-minded' some see as discriminating. There's a new age swamp in these here environs, Stonor. Some like to stay on the catwalk above it, some like to swim in it. The thread with miraclelurker proves that in spades. If you're just looking for OT shit to talk about, go somewhere where those T's aren't so O or something. But don't start your stupid bullshit here all over again. This place is not for you in any sense of the word. None.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 14:37:37 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Jim Subject: Why should there be any need? And who is 'us'? Message:

Did I mention your name Jim? Why do you take my post to Francesca so personally? I'm not on trial here, Jim, but you've tried to put me into this 'mock turtle crap' soon after I first arrived. That's the one thing you seem to share with most premies - this particular form of 'xenophobia'. Remember Mike Fronke? Of course you do, but like many premies, you seem to have a selective memory, and to be quite adept at putting your own 'spin' on things. Again, for the record and in case Francesca doesn't know ... blame it on Mili Having fun with your private e-mail trashing of me? And don't you love that Mr. Bongo-List going bongo again? This particular discussion with you is over at my end, Mr. Advocate of Free Speech and Transparency. I have better things to do than re-hash this old shit ... don't you?

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 18:03:56 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Stonor -- I'm glad to have you here Message:

Telling someone who isn't giving us 'satsang' that they don't belong here only reinforces the criticisms that premies have of us. And yes, I'm going to be very selective in my reading and posting. This endless debate, where personal ideas that people put on here get picked to threads is sickening me. But people are coming from all sorts of orientations here, even the ones picking things apart. I get tired of it though. Sorry, Jim, but I do. These endless battles have me wanting to spend much less time here than I do. Jim is right though in that, never having been a premie, the OT stuff would be of more interest to you, where you can just interact with the folks here. It's starting to interest me more as well. :-O) I'm sick of the main topic of FV, and that's no one's fault I suppose, because that's the purpose of the board. love, f

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 22:42:50 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Thanks Francesca. Message:

At this point I am definitely more interested in the OT, but it wasn't that way at all at the beginning, and he still wasn't happy. Oh well. I was once told to just not read the posts of people I don't get along with, but just reading the 'Subjects' would often upset me, even if they weren't aimed at me, and especially if they were aimed at someone I knew and cared about. And I did try not to get involved in discussions I didn't know much about first hand, or when it didn't seem appropriate for a 'non-anything'. Would write more, but I'm feeling a little burnt out right now. (Another big reason why I don't post as much as I used to! ;) Hope we get to chat again sometime soon! Big hug to you, Anna

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 17:55:33 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Stonor Subject: And who is 'us'? See my post to you above re Message:

your relevance on FV.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 21:54:45 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: PatC Subject: Try speaking for yourself sometime, Pat, ... Message:

it's usually safer. And your personal opinion about my relevance here, even if shared with a handful of others, is of little relevance to me.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 05:00:32 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Lifes Great is toxic - like an overdose of sugar Message:

I quite enjoy the anti-FV stuff. It's the ''my inner experience'' treacle I can't stomach.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:42:14 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: PatC Subject: saccharin+olestra!Warning:may cause analleakage(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:41:05 (GMT) From: nt Email: None To: PatC Subject: saccharin+olestra!Warning:may cause analleakage(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 00:03:56 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Francesca Subject: My thoughts exactly... Message:

Yes, at first I thought it was a bongo letter but then it gathered steam and took off in some interesting directions. Her hostility towards this forum could be real...the voices here are more humourous to us then to someone who has not yet come to terms. Perhaps she'll see us in a different light when the pain subsides. She has to heal for awhile.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 20:03:04 (GMT) From: Goodygoodygirl Email: not provided To: Deborah Subject: Well not exactly . . . Message:

How those that agreed got the point and those that didn't get it, just didn't get it. Because they aren't capable of getting the bigger picture even when its presented to them. And anyway Deborah, how can you assume to know whether I am ex, a pwk or alien, and since when DONT WE ALL need healing. You're assuming just because I posted on Life's Great da da da . . .

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:36:26 (GMT) From: Bingo, GoodyGoodyGirl Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Incredible post from Life is Great--a MUST READ Message:

Last night I wandered into the nether regions of my Dish network, where I usually never go, and I saw displayed on the Guide the words 'Elan Vital.' I clicked on it, and discovered that I had just tuned into the beginning of Maharaji's talk in Portland. After getting over the shock of how much Maharaji looked like Chairman Mao (his hair was poofed out to the sides like Chairman Mao's used to be), and after a few moments of mental dithering about whether I really wanted to watch/listen to Maharaji, I decided to go for it and pay real attention with as much dispassion as I could muster. GoodyGoodyGirl brilliantly articulates exactly what I was feeling, but which I couldn't quite yet articulate. I was intrigued by the subtle cues, the hand gestures, the coy smiles, the changes in the tone and timbre of his voice which Maharaji used to elicit a response from the crowd. The content of his discourse was devoid of meaning, with him going on about coffee, and the many forms it now comes in, and how coffee is now trendy. He then segued into how the breath is not trendy, and how it never makes it to the 'list of bests' and how our breath is number one. I could go on dissecting what Maharaji said, but the real fascination for me was his cues and the audience's response to his cues. As I logged onto this train of thought, it felt like I was watching a performance of 'call and response', not unlike Pavlov's dog. Even more fascinating, though, was exactly what GoodyGoodyGirl so clearly stated: that Maharaji presents the world to us in a manner that would make one not really want to have anything to do with it, and that the only thing worth pursuing is him (as Master). At its worst, he inverts reality, crippling us from taking ourselves and the 'world' seriously, particularly in regard to positive actions which would benefit us, personally and societally. I could elaborate more, but I think Goody's cogent post says it all so eloquently. (I'm still surprised, though, at how much he looked like Chairman Mao. Perhaps he's morphed into Maoraji?)

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:38:28 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Bingo, GoodyGoodyGirl Subject: The abv was from me...I screwed up the fields..nt Message:

m

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:30:45 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Disculta Subject: Thank you GoodyGoody Girl Message:

I had someone point your post out to me, but kept forgetting to read it when I was over on LG. If you contact me and allow it, I would love to host it somewhere on EPO. There are people out there who feel or have felt what you've just shared with total strangers, but who have never seen it put into words as well as you just described it. I know that I'm one of them.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 22:04:11 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Brian Subject: Thank you GoodyGoody Girl ****Best of Forum**** Message:

Don't worry, you'll be saved ......

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:55:37 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: ***YES, this one's a RINGER***----------n/t Message:

n/t

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:57:13 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: so-called Maharaji Subject: Also, Prempal Rawat : READ THIS POST! Message:

Is your conscience clear? What are you going to do now? C.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:49:14 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Disculta Subject: some potent sections! Everyone,please read thread Message:

POWERFUL EXCERPTS: 'In a society that already runs high on blame, M encouraged us to blame. First and foremost ourselves for “never getting it right”, and then the world for “always getting it wrong.” So we did, we blamed our partners, parents, children and colleagues for not having this K, for not understanding that they needed a Master. We channelled a lot of very strong negative concepts back into the “world” on behalf of M, of course, and love and light and peace. Meanwhile we were never really there for the world, just for M. He had the gift of love and devotion from thousands of people that could have changed the world and yet he chose to conduct his teachings in a way that led to self-glorification and one would imagine self-gratification. We always fail in the eyes of M, and therefore we have been diminished, sadly many P’s to a point of nothingness, I personally have known 3 P’s who suicided themselves over the years because they thought they couldn’t “get it.” Diminished, for in essence, what was a drip of K. M disempowered us time and time again, without his authority we were nothing. Nothing we ever think is right, its only a concept and nothing we ever feel is true or valid or justifiable in the face of the great experience of K, or more recently should I say the Master. By now subjugated to his every word for guidance, how many of us acted and performed our lives through the mesh of M. His dictum being the only right dictum. What happened to benevolence? M never expanded on the spirituality of our souls and allowed us to live in the world as fully integrated beings. Instead by pooh, poohing and trivialising this life, the world as we know it, untold damage to millions of life has been done through his small-minded and greedy way. We have over-ridden queues, negated our family life, invalidated everything as mind, put out the wrong code of ethics on mass, to a globe absolutely ripe for a larger dose of darkness, but more cynical, it was all done under the guise of “love and light.” What began with pushing down the boundaries of the Old Age in the 60’s, ended up with M destroying all the boundaries within ourselves and our lives to a point where many of us have been left without even being able to make a right decision. Slaves to a Master. Empty, soulless shells that needed their Master to tell them what and how to do it. Hence the organisation. Is this really enlightenment? Did M himself become misguided. For most of us we have woken up and smelt the coffee. Looked at our lives and realised that indeed knowledge never gave us anything to do with our lives in the material world, but for some their material world was already in place, and yet for many their spiritual lives are no richer either. Because they are not experiencing love. LOVE. Solvency, health. The feeling of being loved and giving love and that is what is missing in M’s world now. That two-way exchange of love and energy does make us bigger in our lives. We grow then. M always taught us to blame the world for everything that was wrong, as if we weren’t a part of it. To really stop and see that we have got the power of healing and good energies flowing through our lives. To stop accepting abuse, to stop and really intend to get the best for our lives, in a proper way, and by proxy that extending out into the planet. M told us we were individuals, and then proceeded to stop us having our own thoughts and growth. What we experienced was a lack of individuation. A child at age 3-5 experiences individuation from its mother. That is existing outside of her as an individual in its own right. M took us to a point of not allowing us to be ourselves, everything was satsang, service and meditation to him. For me now I have to grow up, separate, find out who I am. Experience my emotions, validate my experience, stop having spiritual concepts, but more spirituality, trust my instincts, make those connections, live life without fear and enjoy being human.'

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:20:49 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Incredible post from Life is Great 91 more words Message:

M told us we were individuals, and then proceeded to stop us having our own thoughts and growth. What we experienced was a lack of individuation. A child at age 3-5 experiences individuation from its mother. That is existing outside of her as an individual in its own right. M took us to a point of not allowing us to be ourselves, everything was satsang, service and meditation to him. For me now I have to grow up, separate, find out who I am. Experience my emotions, validate my experience, stop having spiritual concepts, but more spirituality, trust my instincts, make those connections, live life without fear and enjoy being human.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:41:53 (GMT) From: Daisy Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Incredible post from Life is Great 91 more words Message:

Would you please post the address for Life's Great? I can't find it. Also the recent Charles site if you have it. Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:32:10 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Daisy Subject: *** ALL LINKS ARE ABOVE *** Message:

Just click on 'Other Forums & Sites' at the top of this page and you'll find Lifes Great and more than you probably want. Forum Admin

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 06:53:54 (GMT) From: Brian Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: [silent chuckles] nt Message:

x

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:52:07 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Daisy Subject: here's the link: cut 'n paste to address. (nt Message:

http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&all=yes

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:53:13 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: such Subject: http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=prem Message:

http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&all=yes

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 11:41:56 (GMT) From: Two Feet Email: None To: Richard II, Everyone Subject: My Story ... Message:

Richard, I read your response to my post - SHAME ON YOU - and I will respond to the issues you raised but first I will tell you my story. I took K in 1971, having met M in a small room in a house in London … at the time I would have literally given my right arm if I had been asked to. For the first time in my life I felt as if I had found something that I wanted more than anything else in the world. I felt that I had ‘come home’ and I wanted so much to ‘belong’. I was 17. I joined the Ashram and literally gave my all … I had nothing other than the clothes I stood in. My life was service, satsang and meditation … which was what I was told receiving Knowledge meant … a lifetime of devotion to M … mind, body and soul. I was ‘privileged’ … many of the ashram premies had to work … I never had to. I did Service all day … in the ashram, then in the DLM/ DUO office, as finally as an area co-ordinator. Evenings were spent in Satsang. I sang arti twice a day and meditated for an hour both morning and evening. Knowledge was my life and I lived the ashram lifestyle as instructed by M and his mahatmas/instructors … I can remember the ashram meetings that M held in order to encourage us in our selfless devotion to M and the K. As I got older I started to feel a need for what I would now call ‘normality’ in my life … I wanted things of my own: a job; a relationship; a home; a car; money to go out for a meal or to the movies or even on holiday … I wanted to be a part of this world. When I decided to leave the ashram I was ‘officially’ told that I would burn in hell for walking away from the precious opportunity that M was giving me … total devotion, with no distraction from the world. I left anyway, but felt like an outcast. Time passed, things changed, the ashrams disbanded, DUO became EV etc. etc. while I slowly made a ‘success’ of my life and grew to love the world I found myself in. I live with a history … a large part of my life that was totally dedicated to M, which I will always carry within me. I know why I took K, I know why I devoted my life to M. I also know why I am now leaving. As an aside … I have never felt ‘disadvantaged’ by the years I gave M … quite the opposite … I could even argue that this is the point that K has now brought me to. I like the person I am and the values I hold dear – truth, integrity and honest communication are very important to me. NOW TO YOUR POST … I have picked out what I consider to be the key words … they are: Why need to know intimate details of M’s life … K is either real or not … Is K just 4 techniques gotten off the internet … what kind of help looking to M for … not an independent adult who makes your own decisions about your life … if M wants to drink it’s irrelevant … pressures surrounding unique role … not my business … discovering sanctity of life … fulfilling its promise. Why do ‘I’ need to know the intimate details of M’s life … K is either real or not … My background and what I was taught is this: M and K are the same. If M is being drunk with himself, then he is being drunk with K; if M is disrespecting himself, then he is disrespecting K. I admit to having no respect … only a feeling of sadness …for ‘anyone’ who needs to get pissed or stoned in order to handle their life, with or without K. I expect a lot of myself … some say too much … and I expect a lot of others. K is either real or not … What is K? … I was taught that K is satsang, service and meditation … a path of devotion, and no one, to this day, has told me otherwise. Is it real? I lived it … I breathed it … I ate it … I slept it … it was my entire life … I gave up ‘everything’ for it … is that real enough for you? Is K just 4 techniques gotten off the internet … Of course not … that’s meditation … K is something else … it’s a path of devotion … how you choose to live and breath your life. What kind of help looking to M for … not an independent adult who makes your own decisions about your life … M was the one who came to the West … to me … and offered me ‘so’ many things in his satsangs. ALL I ever did was say yes please, accept his offer, and follow the path of devotion he laid out before me. Was I an independent adult at 17 when I was given K … that’s disputable. But I am now, and I am able to draw a line between ‘right’ and ‘wrong’. I understand that Truth isn’t just words, and that integrity is a way of life. If M wants to drink it’s irrelevant … pressures surrounding unique role … not my business … Hmmm, I personally expect people to do as they say and act with integrity around themselves and others. It’s only children to whom I say … ‘do as I say, don’t do as I do’. I expect no more of M that I expect of anyone … and consider that to be reasonable. As for pressures surrounding unique role … I was always under the impression the K brought, to those who practiced it, the ultimate Peace. Again, does this mean that M doesn’t practice what he preaches i.e. doesn’t himself experience Peace. Discovering sanctity of life … fulfilling its promise … I looked up ‘sanctity’ … it means ‘ holiness of life’, ‘santliness’, ‘sacredness’, ‘state of being hallowed’, ‘sacred obligations’. I looked up ‘fulfil oneself’ … it means ‘develop one’s gifts and character to the full’. Beautiful words … I continue to discover the sanctity of my life and I continue to fulfil myself … THERE IS LIFE WITHOUT MAHARAJI’S KNOWLEDGE …

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 00:11:03 (GMT) From: Patrick W Email: None To: Two Feet Subject: My Story ... Message:

Nice to hear from another person who remembers the special 'Ashram Premie Satsangs' Maharaji gave. I too gave (up) everything with absolute sincerity and trusting heart, to live in the ashram and walked the humble walk there for years. I expect our stories are quite similar. (I also received knowledge at 17 in London). But let me tell you - I was definitely pressured into it with a lot of fear-mongering that Maharaji himself was the source of. Nowadays premies seem to have become neurotic and tight-lipped about the past. I detect some reluctance to recall the past, as if it never happened or shaped the present in any way. Certainly there is a conspiracy to paint Maharaji himself as blameless for any of the suffering that people went through struggling to live up to his devotional demands. I am grateful to people like you (what's your real name?) who at least remember these occasions, because sometimes I think I must have dreamt it! I suspect that many current premies are so anxious to present a reformed image that they somehow have become victims to a sort of group denial or mass selected memory loss. One thing I would like to say while I'm here. I have read the new anti ex-premie sites that have sprung up lately and I just get this feeling that the authors of these web sites have been driven to create them largely to reinforce their personal belief that the allegations about Maharaji's behaviours are false. The sad thing is that this seems to be at the cost of, what I would call, Real Integrity. The conscientious thing to do would surely be to check whether the information, that ex-premies reported, is true before denouncing them so dismissively. One guy (a friend of mine actually) wrote Pia a letter saying how he didn't like her using the term 'hate group' or something. I think she called him Mr USA or something. Anyway this guy knows that the allegations are largely true, in fact I have talked with him on many occasions and he is more or less into the idea of being open about it all, but - you know what - for him I sense that it's really still partly down to 'don't bite the hand that feeds' . He can only go so far in his acceptance that Maharaji makes mistakes that he should rightly take active responsibility for. There is a reluctance to accord Maharaji blame, even though the known facts loudly proclaim his culpability, and an tendency to revere Maharaji the 'Spiritual Master' to the point where he is beyond accountability for some primitive weird reason -there is a lot of fear mixed up in what is called respect. Premies are so dependant and hooked on the whole thing that they daren't rock the boat too much even if their conscience occasionally wakes up and pesters them. They just like the trip so much - the travel , the lifestyle, the music, the being associated with the happening thing, the beautiful meditation / sorry 'practice' - Truth, accountability, ethics, empathy for others are aspirations that rank relatively low when Maharaji calls. As a premie, I became increasingly aware of contradictory goings-on on many occasions. I felt deeply uncomfortable about many things that I felt were unconscionable behaviours by influential people (not just Maharaji). This I cannot deny. I knew that a lot of what was denied hotly by premies was true and I personally had witnessed some things that I could have told them (from my own experience) that would have been very troubling to them and totally off-putting to newcomers. I felt awkward, embarrassed and ultimately confused by becoming unwittingly privvy to such things. To cut a long story short - I figured that the honest and integral thing to do was to take some steps to get clear about the truth and the implications thereof. Just for me - my clarity -yes Pia - 'clarity.' To this end I made the effort to talk with anyone who I met, who had direct experience with Maharaji (more than I) whenever the opportunity arose, and I also actively sought out information about such things as the Indian roots etc. to educate myself a bit more about the events and circumstances from the past that had resulted in the tidal wave of 'devotion to the guru-ism' that had travelled from India to effect me so wholly as a young teen growing up in England in 1974. I even telephoned Mike Dettmers (after his revelations on this forum) and asked if I could talk to him privately when he was in town, so that I could gauge the veracity and implications of his 'darshan stories' for myself - from the 'horse's mouth'. On the train to London I had butterflies in my tummy because it felt like I was taking some responsibility in my life to embrace the truth and it was frankly, a little scary. I would question whether Pia and the other people who denounce Dettmers as liars, have thoroughly done this before embarking on their campaigns to clarify the situation. I spoke with Glen Whittaker and invited him to discuss these things with Dettmers and myself. His reaction was basically one of horror. He simply did not wish to talk with someone who had so betrayed his beloved Master. It was kind of an emotional reaction I felt - an impassioned one -not a balanced reaction from someone who was in a strong and healthy position inside themselves. I like Glen but I felt that his refusal of the invitation to discuss these things showed a lack of some empathy that human beings really should have. Does loyalty to Maharaji mean that one can no longer discuss things like human beings - like gentlemen? I honestly believe that for a premie, who is convinced that Maharaji is some kind of benign authority (ie. if not 'God' then effectively 'a man-god') that it takes enormous courage to de-throne him in your mind (where he has successfully settled) and, like you originally did, invite the real yet unknown God (if there is such a thing) to inspire you with higher love and truth - even if (as in my case) this means facing the possibility that indeed that one has been effectively worshipping a false God and maybe has wasted time doing so. So anyway, I met Michael Dettmers and asked him everything that I wanted, and satisfied myself on where he was coming from - whether what he was saying was true - or should I say, rung true . It did and I quite believed what he told me. He was very open, human and warm and, I felt, refreshingly honest about his experience with Maharaji. I felt that he did not possess the twisted motives that some premies have tried to picture him as being driven by. I even got some impression that he had affection for Maharaji in many ways. He must have initially had to wrestle terribly with his feelings of loyalty to criticise him. I suppose I have been through a similar battle. On the one hand there is one's loyalty to Maharaji, that was a hugely influential factor for me, and then my conscience and wits telling me that this relationship was getting unhealthy and even abusive and the desperate urge to talk about it with others. I would say that those people who have reported Maharaji's private drunkeness, womanizing, drug use, driving off after killing a cyclist, general policy to cover-up such things etc. are absolutely shining with truthfulness and integrity - like beacons compared to those who cannot even bring themselves to talk about it, and who furthermore, can only posit suggestions that these things are wicked lies. Isn't it true that the whole premie Maharaji devotion dynamic fundamentally runs on confidence and trust? Should people allow themselves to feed only on a diet of one particular aspect of Maharaji to inspire them with trust for him? (ie just go to programs and admire the 'stage persona' and his words of wisdom and charisma) - ignoring the other aspects? Maybe one should just 'trust one's own experience' as premies pretend their doing (whatever that's supposed to mean I'm not so sure) but at the end of the day, the likes of 'Two Feet' and myself, and many other people who devoted their time and youth to him were fundamentally trusting him -the man -his words - that he spoke. Not the man toking on the joint listening to Peter Frampton. Not the man slugging cognac 'till he needed to carried upstairs to bed - Not the man looking for some extra- marital sexual experiences with other women -etc. BUT the man on the stage at the Ashram satsang, yelling at us what worms we were for even thinking about sex when we had this great opportunity to sacrifice our lives to Maharaji. (The more I think of this the more I am reminded of King Kong receiving sacrificial victims from the tribe who thought he was a God) I feel we should have been entitled to know more about the man we were listening to in such trepidation . We never saw the guy doing all this stuff -come to think of it -before Maharaji came to my recording studio a while back - I received a vist from the besuited Michael Woods who I seem to recall gave me a very mild x-rating , actually it was more of a 'w' rating or something - he said something to the effect that Maharaji had this private life that most premies didn't ever get to see, that they might find it hard to handle etc. and that if got to be around him you should respect his privacy etc etc. Maharaji eventually showed up with Mike and Monica whats-er-name, driven by Peter Dawson in blacked out Limo (I wonder what the neighbours thought) and I believe there is a video out in premieland showing the Maestro (that's him not me of course! :-) tickling the ivories (plastics) of of one of my synthesizers. So initially we have Maharaji brimming with confidence and whom we are attracted to to guide us in the ways of life - Is is not evidence of a fragile 'Knowledge' that his policy of secrecy (x-rating etc.) protects premies or newcomers from learning of behaviour of his that may shake their faith? Is it not sick that pemies should conspire to keep it that way for him? Anyway, I too for many years loved Maharaji for his good points and indeed, despite his faults, so it is not particularly with pleasure that I find myself drawing attention to his behaviours or criticising his ways now. I simply feel deep down that powerful people ethically should not hide behind walls of secrecy, and that the truth always needs to be known. I also feel that it was, in the past, very unethical and ultimately abusive, that whilst he was , at these Ashram meetings, dealing out orders for us to be celibate and clean living, he was secretly (emphasis on 'secretly') doing all these things himself - albeit though to ashamed to be seen doing so. Will the world ever know how controlling this 70's Maharaji really was? He attracted and ultimately mesmerised and entrapped a bunch of really sincere, intelligent , loving, honest, young westerners who had their lives ahead of them, and put them through a lot of unneccessary hindu surrender' nonsense, that was very painful at the time (the word torture comes to mind) and for which he has NEVER satisfactorily atoned as far as I can see. But then we're just a few lone moaners I guess. What the hell do we count for when he has all these satisfied customers. That's my contribution to this site for the next six months. Bye now.

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Date: Sun, Jul 08, 2001 at 09:57:40 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Patrick W Subject: EXCELLENT! Repost as a new thread please...nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 14:59:08 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: Would someone email this one to charles also....nt Message:

fghj

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 04:09:45 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: GREAT POST PATRICK! Message:

And I wasn't going to read the Forum tonight. Thanks for that. --f

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 02:32:09 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: Another great post Patrick Message:

Two astute 'journeys' in the same thread. Both you, Patrick, and Two Feet have presented representative first hand historical perspectives that are being denied by EV, Pia and CG. Good work.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 02:21:23 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: Superb post Patrick NT Message:

zzz

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:28:46 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Two Feet Subject: completely inferior:m.=drugs + alcohell hypocrite: Message:

On the use of drugs and alcohol: 'Well, the only thing I can tell you is that, look, you already have a Knowledge that is much more superior than that. It is like this: a person is in one city and he is telling everybody, 'Oh, I want to go to another city as soon as possible.' And he has a falcon jet which is A-OK. It runs; it's perfect. But all he does is take his suitcase and start walking. And that's not the quickest way. It's not good to just say, 'Oh, I want this enlightenment to be soon as possible', and then instead, going to something that is completely inferior.' -- Guru Maharaj Ji It's not good to just say, 'Oh, I want this enlightenment to be soon as possible', and then instead, going to something that is completely inferior.' You tell 'em, ya lil' blubberin' rugu!

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:07:13 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Two Feet Subject: Excellent post Two Feet,very articulate and honest Message:

appraisal of 3 decades of involvement with M & K. I hope that you are working on a journey entry, you have a very insightful and interesting story to tell. I strongly identified with everything that you said, particularly about the lack of disclosure of M's reliance/addiction to alcohol. Don't get me wrong here, I am not saying that everyone who drinks has a problem. I just would not expect a spiritual teacher to set that kind of example. I had drug and alcohol issues which I treated and have maintained sobriety for the last 18 years. If I an average person can deal with these problems, you would think that a perfect master could easily overcome his issues in this area. And why would a perfect master even need a drink at all? Given the peace and serenity that he holds the keys to that he says he will reveal within (inside) you ????? No, he doesn't pass the litmus test, his behavior here just does not add up, the drinking example is just one of the many disparities in his lifestyle that points to hypocricy and fraud. It brings to mind what mata ji said about him when she bailed 25 years ago, 'he is an irresponsible playboy' his mother knew that much even though she was a big part of the scam herself. Thanks for the great post Two Feet, you have opened up a whole new avenue of dialogue with your direct and honest insights.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:20:25 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Two Feet Subject: m.=sucha Fodder:‘do as I say, don’t do as I do’(nt Message:

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:24:52 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Two Feet Subject: Thanks, Two Feet, I hope to get to know you Message:

You summed it up all so well. I hope any ethical premies reading your post will see why you have made your decision. Most premies seem to think that life will be worse or we will not have peace after leaving rawat. The happy fact is that, since leaving him 6 months ago, I feel better than I have ever felt in my life. I did not know what real peace was until I cut the gooroo out of my life. Perhaps unethical people are not affected by being associated with a hypocritical gooroo but I know I was and it feels so good to have gotten rid of him. I hope that I will see more of you here.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:12:39 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Two Feet Subject: Living with EV's history Message:

I particularly liked this part: I live with a history … a large part of my life that was totally dedicated to M, which I will always carry within me. One of the most common 'arguments' that premies raise here concerns the apparent 'inability' of ex's to 'get over it' and 'stop living in the past'. Nobody actually lives IN the past. They always live in the present. But they cannot function effectively in any present without having a past. The idea that life consists of a series of unique 'moments', like passing signposts, that are completely disconnected from each other is a falacy. And it's the same falacy that allows people to piss away years of their 'moments' on fruitless ventures like DLM in the first place. Anyone attempting to put that viewpoint into practice in their lives loses the ability to accurately measure its impact on their lives in the process - since the true reference point for any measurement IS the past. They may experience life as the long series of 'happy' moments that result from this view, but only at the cost of completely abandoning GROWTH and LEARNING as standards of measurement. The trumpeted value of Knowledge is the ability to appreciate each 'moment' as it happens - to experience happiness now. But the only way to actually measure the value of Knowledge isn't by practicing it, but by measuring the impact of that practice as a means to enhance growth. Today those unmeasured premie 'moments' are being pissed away on EV rather than on DLM. Each event is the BEST, since it isn't being measured against any past event. Each word out of Maharaji's mouth is unique and significant, since their repetition is lost on those who forfeit memories of having heard it 'moments' before from the same mouth. EV is completely unwilling to acknowledge the past accurately. This amounts to moving the reference point used to recognise the ineffectiveness of the efforts wasted on it. EV refuses to stand against the same door edge where it placed its mark showing how BIG it was 30 years ago, so it doesn't have to acknowledge the fact that the results of those efforts have come to nothing - and more importantly, cannot ever be expected to come to anything based on the non-existant past. There will always be the next event and the next phase as long as there are people willing to waste their next moment on it in a 'happy' forgetfulness of the fact that NOTHING COMES FROM IT. The percieved injustice expressed here in demanding that Maharaji be held accountable for his PAST, is spoken in a language forgotten by many premies who are very happy in the present. Where there is no past there is no basis to reasonably consider holding anyone accountable for their actions - particularly in holding them accountable in any present 'moment'. But over the last 30 years, the efforts wasted on DLM, on EV and Maharaji's 'mission' to spread this Knowledge to the entire world have resulted in LESS people learning to forget that language every year.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 18:10:39 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Brian and Two Feet Subject: On exiting powerfully and the arrow of time Message:

Hi Two Feet. I received K in Oct 1971 in Alba Gardens (my name then was Katie Jones). I really love your post. I, too, gave my all, for most of 12 years. There was absolutely no doubt that it was MJ who instructed me to do this. How absurd that anyone is suggesting otherwise. In giving my all, I actually also felt that I got some benefit. I cleared away some debris from my upbringing that was a bit unhealthy. I developed powerful muscles of intention, which have served me well. Also, I got quite ill from feeling the need to push through whatever was going on with my body, and continue to struggle with the immune disorder I developed back then. I'm glad I left when I did (1984). I applaud you for leaving on your own terms, both in the face of pressures from the premie world and, perhaps, the ex-premie world, which may sometimes seem to be demanding that you disavow everything. Power to you, brother (or are you a sister?). Brian: Re time and the past and all that. I couldn't agree more! I think there is so much confusion about 'living in the present moment.' Of course, it's important to connect with life here and now, but very often the spiritual injunction to do this is in complete denial of large parts of our self which not only carries, but IS our past and our ongoing learning and growth into our present and future. In the evolution of the universe there was only ONE MOMENT when all the hydrogen atoms in the universe were - or could have been - made. One nanosecond. Things do have a development, a story, over time. There is even a new theory in physics by Ilya Prigogine, who won the Nobel Prize, called The Arrow of Time, which disavows the idea that there is no such thing as time, which is so cheerily toted by scientists and spiritualists as proof that it's okay to just ignore all that stuff that feels inconvenent to us. Like MJ's past and so on. I certainly don't want to spend much time exploring all the past problems, but there is a balance between not reiterating it all, and totally denying it all. The tendency to deny it just ensures that it will repeat itself, according to my understanding of things. love Katie

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 18:45:45 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Those who do not learn from the past... Message:

... are doomed to repeat it. (I just made that up in this present moment - yeah, that's right. >:) Excellent thread Two Feet and nice additions by you all. I love posts that wake up the few remaining brain cells I have. Richard who likes to Be Here Now, Be There Then, and Be Here Now and Again

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:21:59 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Richard Subject: That was zen this is tao! nt Message:

Not

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:38:58 (GMT) From: Shri Sinatra Ji Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Do. Be. Do. Be Do! (repeat) /nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:12:10 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Shri Sinatra Ji Subject: m.: doobie, doobie DO! but Dear Premies, Don't!(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 18:03:30 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Brian Subject: Great post Brian Message:

Reclaiming our own past is long and difficult job. The fact that EV and Maharaji lies about the past makes the task impossible unless you break away, and even then it's difficult to put the peices together. My position is a little different, in that I have also spent the last few years reclaiming my ethnic past. In England I never felt like an Englishman, although outside my family, I never mixed with other Latvians. But although I will always be a foreigner to the locals here in Latvia, I feel totally at home. John.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 15:02:22 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: JHB Subject: Great post Brian..nt Message:

fgfghj

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 12:01:53 (GMT) From: wofie Email: None To: Two Feet Subject: applause! nt Message:

hrtht

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 11:49:36 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: None To: Two Feet Subject: Hurrah for Two feet! Intelligent and straight. Nt Message:

gh

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:40:22 (GMT) From: Tim G Email: None To: Two Feet Subject: Integrity in every word! Thanx 2 Feet nt Message:

Yipee

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:46:54 (GMT) From: wolfie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I go to see M Message:

Hi everyone, how it looks like, I'll go to Mainz that weekend to confront myself with M. I want to see, what I'll see out of a complet different perspective. I will give a report, but it will last a few days, cause I have to move in another building at my work. I'm a little bit afraid, how to react to old premie friends when they approach to me in that manner:' Oh is't it wonderful to be here?' Anyway there was a way in, and there is a way out, and if all gets to much for my nervoussystem, maybe I find a good pub, an internet cafe or a good music store. so long ........all my friends out there ..............wolfie

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:15:01 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: wolfie Subject: Oh is't it wonderful to be here?' Message:

Yea but Wolfie 'Oh is't it wonderful to be here?' is ONLY a rhetorical question. My sincere suggestion: Go have a good time, and make the hot-postprogram party circuit. You could actually be the hit of the party if everyone going's googoo gaagaa Guru this and Gurugoogoo yaak-yaak that! THEN: You casually spike the babble-on dude session with ironic retorts like: 1. 'Oh! I thought I was going to puke, actually, when BigHead said that' or 2. 'DO YOU BELIEVE THAT! Geesh what a sucker!' or (for when the satsang gets deeper) 3.'Yeah right! And what do you think the Guru meant by that apparently assinine remark' Get the picture :} Note: this will really be effective if you say it with a shit-eating premie grin on your face while you massage some premie babe's shoulders. Trust Me!

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:15:19 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Deborah Subject: makin' da hot post-partum party circuit! (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:11:55 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: wolfie Subject: To:agent 007,mission=Operation Banana Cream Pie(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:12:34 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: wolfie Subject: Yes, it's hard not to be a member of the club Message:

I've done this before Wolfie, about 8-9 years ago. Just concentrate on being glad to see people. It is interesting how some of them are still my friends, regardless, but I went way down on some people's lists just because I had indicated to them that I wasn't practicing K anyone and (at that time) was involved in a Buddhist meditation group. With some of them, I got the feeling we'd become lepers--the unclean, the untouchable. ('Gee, it's too bad.') But when you think about it, some people weren't so much interested in 'me' as the whole package -- the fact that we inspired each other to do the thing that the premies still think is the most important thing in their lives -- follow M and practice K. It was awkward. My husband and I both agreed that if we ever go again, we will just stand out the front of the place after it's over or hang out in the lobby to say hello. Neither of us can stomach listening to Rawat and watching those cheezy videos. Of course, I don't know if I could handle the 'bliss' and the quotes from the talk, either. But do go if you feel you must, or you'll wish you did. That experience was valuable for me because much of my mental conditioning had worn off. I actually expected to enjoy the talk because at that point, although I'd left, I didn't see through the whole trip yet -- only knew there were better meditation methods and better teachers out there, for me. I thought at least that his talk would be inspiring, but after going to hear so many other teachers, it was pretty hokey, kind of kindergarten spirituality, and the adoration the premies had for him (including my own friends) was palpable even in silence. (As well as some tears and sniffing.) I'm sure your own experience of all this will be different, because there's no two of us exactly alike! love, f

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:48:09 (GMT) From: Tim G Email: None To: wolfie Subject: Conditioned Reflexes Message:

Hi Wolfie...I can't think why you want to go but maybe it still needs to be expunged from your system and you need a visible proof of that. Good Luck anyway. The conditioned reflexes will be strong and also the group dynamic..I would find it quite unpleasant myself and a bit like stepping into an old repetitive move, pretty damn boring. I feel so sure that these cult and group movements only rob us of our self knowledge and seek to impose their own views/methods/theories. Luckily Life is none of those things and has to be experienced directly. Peace and Love Tim

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:23:06 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: wolfie Subject: We will be awating your return Message:

don't you chicken out. He has no clue.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 13:03:09 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: wolfie Subject: Going to see M, with your eyes wide open Message:

Hi Wolfie, You should have a wonderful time, I would think. You are in a position of strength and objectivity, able to discriminate the overt and subtle manipulations M/EV habitually deploy in the battle for your affections. You've seen the marionette's strings, and the frantic man behind the screen. I imagine your inner smile will be very wide indeed during your adventure into the cult cocoon. It may be a struggle to not laugh out loud at the current packaging and silliness, or at the Disney-like sentimentality and hyped cosmic intensity. Your feelings may travel all over the map, of course. Effective theatre can grab your emotions and give them a disturbing twist. M has developed a his showman's craft quite well, apparently, and has a style that 'works' to some extent. But his ticket price is perpetual payment, enforced by guilt and blind allegience. But your eyes are open. And you are as free as you want to be. Enjoy the show! Carl

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:53:50 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Report From West Vancouver Front Message:

I would just like to say that I have had a very good week and I would like to thank all the people here for the tremendous help and support that I have received over the last nine months. Steve Quint

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 14:36:04 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Steve Quint Subject: Report From West Vancouver Front Message:

This month includes the national birthdays of Canada, U.S. France and other countries I'm sure. In the name of international peace and brotherhood, here are the lyrics of a song I love and just heard on the radio. Elevation.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:12:41 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Steve Quint Subject: Report From West Vancouver Front Message:

Here's a song I've got on C.D. by The Cult and have wanted to post for a long time now. The blanks are slurred words that they couldn't make out. Go Go Guru.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:22:29 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Good to hear it Steve Message:

When I had a few problems in 92 I found that when I tried to push it as far as getting back to normal, it didn't work. People avoided me. But when I just started doing normal stuff with the few friends I could count on at that time, or even alone, slowly my strength and confidence returned. I'm a great fan of the mundane! I wish you all the best, John the let's hear it for the mundane!

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:45:31 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_aven ger55@hotmail.com To: JHB Subject: Hi John Message:

Yeah, I was just saying the same thing today to a friend. Always brush your teeth at least once a day - when you start losing touch with routine, that's when big problems start. That was one of the big problems of the Haha, in that he took to many people too far away from their normal routine, and to everybody on earth, normal routine is the foundation of sanity. Best Regards, Steve

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 14:57:53 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Steve Quint Subject: Hail Latvia Message:

I just felt like saying that. Steve

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:53:50 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Hail Latvia Message:

Strangely enough it did hail yesterday, even though it's been very hot. A freak thunderstorm occurred, where we had rain. hail, thunder, lightning, and all through it the sun shone. Unfortunately, the hay that had just about dried got wet:-( John the not really a farmer but worries about these things cos the horses will need to eat in winter

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 10:56:16 (GMT) From: Mr. Mind Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: I'm also glad to hear it, Steve Message:

Hi, Unfortunately for me I guess, I completely understand your statement about having a good week. Recovery, for me as well, is slow but at least it's happening. I remember all to well the last few years in the Rawat cult, hoping that tomorrow would be better. The comments you and John are making in this thread about the routine and the mundane are very timely for me...and NO, I don't think it's Divine Grace Thanks

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:38:38 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Reposted extract from Mike Donner re: Marolyn Message:

I thought this extract from Mike Donner's post below worth highlighting to show the kind of person Maharaji is (my emphasis):- marolyn has always been completely co-dependent with the scene. the few times she tried to affect some change in behaviour she was bullied....my observation...and coopted in other ways, even threatened around who would get the children once at least that i personally know of...she also got into drinking a fair amount herself as dealing with it all... Comments Richard II, CW, CD, MK? John who doesn't devote himself to a bully any more.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:33:13 (GMT) From: MK Email: None To: JHB Subject: Sorry John, my boots are too expensive Message:

to walk around in this kind of stuff. Triple Industrial strength thinners wouldn't get the stench off. I managed to survive the 80's too. Man were they wild if you had plenty of dosh....

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 02:24:25 (GMT) From: DLG Email: None To: MK Subject: That's more like it, Marolyn. Tell them! Message:

Most exes spend all their money on drugs anyway and they have not been Blessed as we have with Gifts of success and wealth. Lots and lots of Love to you (eventhough it's not mine to give and is only by His Grace) DLG (Daddy's Little Girl and not ashamed of being rich and successful by His Grace)

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 00:11:42 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: MK Subject: MK-you are soooooooooooo convincing...NOT/nt Message:

zzzz

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:26:54 (GMT) From: george Email: None To: JHB Subject: Reposted extract from Mike Donner re: Marolyn Message:

hear yea.... here yee... order in the court !

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:33:38 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Everyone Subject: the message remains the same? Lord of the Universe Message:

from EVI website: 'Naturally, over the years his appearance has changed, how he expresses himself has changed and his methods of presenting his message have changed.' but da message remains the same, huh? 'how he expresses himself has changed' 'his methods of presenting his message have changed' comments, please?!

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:50:33 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: the message remains the same? Lord of the Universe Message:

da lord of da universe has come to us this day and he's come to show us the light and he's come to show us the back to our father. da .... .. da

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:07:12 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: salam Subject: open up yer wallets to the universe of love... (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 13:55:40 (GMT) From: Gina Email: None To: such Subject: open up yer wallets to the universe of love... (nt Message:

Such, I dug around through a box of my old papers and found some of the Atlanta DLM community newsletters, entitled 'All For One,' that I continued to receive monthly for about a year, 1976, after I left and went back to college. I understand from what I've read here recently about the revisionist attempt to undo or rewrite the history of that early DLM era, that Guru Maharaj Ji wishes copies of these papers, photographs, magazines, etc, no longer existed. Too bad, they do exist. I never did read them back then, but put them away...hmmmm. Don't EVEN know why! Guess I'm just now working up to closure, eh. These 'All For Ones' contain excerpts of satsang given by Guru Maharaj Ji in 1974, 1975, 1976, as well as editorials containing instructions to the community from on high...what was it called, Agya? Here's one for you from the February 1976 editorial: 'Peace for the City' 'This Knowledge is not something we want to limit to a few people. Maharaj Ji wants us to help spread this Knowledge. This means propagation. If we as a community can come together and be strong, then, and only then, can we do propagation and be effective, and please Guru Maharaj Ji. To really propagate this Knowledge - our basic service to Maharaj Ji - requires our (the rest is underlined but I don't know how to do that) individual clarity, our time, effort, energy, money, and overall coordination.' Money. Whoop, there it is. Right there. '...requires our...money...' Written instructions from the Lord of the Universe. Gina

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:00:44 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Gina Subject: More, tells the rest please..nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:02:33 (GMT) From: Gina Email: None To: salam Subject: Word up, Salam, here you go...rewriting 'His'story Message:

Excerpt from 'All For One' newsletter, Atlanta, April 1976: 'Use of Capitalization' 'In recent weeks, Divine Light Mission has been repeatedly represented in the media as a religious cult. Guru Maharaj Ji has been concerned with the public image we have created and has asked that we begin to focus on constructive ways to present Knowledge so that we do not confuse people. Maharaj Ji has said that it is necessary to change our actions and attitudes away from the religious, spiritual and 'cosmic.' Knowledge has brought practical transformation into the lives of those who use it and we must convey that to people without appearing to be offering another 'religion.' 'One of the things we are doing to help facilitate this understanding is reflected in a new policy that was instituted with regard to the capitalization of pronouns referring to Guru Maharaj Ji. When we use the words 'Guru Maharaj Ji,' we are referring to the person, the Perfect Master, and consequently, the 'h' in pronouns referring to him should be written in small case.' In my opinion, this instruction from 'Him' appears to represent the very beginning of the attempt by 'Him' and 'His' Divine Spin Doctors to 'turn the Titanic' and rewrite the Perfect Master's 'His'tory. And 'He's' still at it 25 years later. I'll keep reading through these papers today as I have time. There are also excerpts from some absolutely absurd satsangs given by 'Him.' Back Innaminit, Gina

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:56:11 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Gina Subject: Very interesting historical document, Gina!!! Message:

Especially since this was sent out from DLM/DUO IHQ during the more humanistic and relateable phase - early 1976. This phase of M stepping down from the throne and walking among humanity turned out to be both liberating for the premies and financially disasterous for M. Within a few months of this newsletter, out came the Krishna Krown and donation box darshan was reinstated. The devotional revival began at Atlantic City 1976. Richard Classic (I'm not Richard II)

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 13:59:44 (GMT) From: Gina (rookie) Email: None To: Gina Subject: Oops, not nt, please do open above message Message:

sorry.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:02:11 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Gina (rookie) Subject: from m.:thanks a 'million' 4 yer participation (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:22:01 (GMT) From: Gina Email: None To: such Subject: 'I mean, you already ARE just puppets.' m. 1976 Message:

Excerpt from 'All For One,' Atlanta, June, 1976: 'The Advantages and Disadvantages of Knowledge' Satsang Given By Guru Maharaj Ji in San Paulo, Brazil on January 4, 1976 'Every premie has two options. One is to really dedicate himself, really realize what this Knowledge is, really do that service, and really get the organization together. The other option is to just forget about everything. A premie can either say, 'Fiddle-de-dee,' (Yikes, do you reckon they had a private showing of 'Gone With The Wind' in the Divine Screening Room?) or he can say, 'No. I'm going to go ahead and I am going to really realize this Knowledge, because that's the aim of my life.' These two options both have their advantages and disadvantages. 'First of all, the advantage of just forgetting about everything, not meditating and not doing service, is that you don't have to work so hard. You don't have to sit down and do meditation; you don't have to go to the ashram and do service; you don't have to do any service at all; you don't have to do ANYTHING. The disadvantage of that is where that puts you: in total darkness, total confusion, what we call in the English language, 'hell.' What you experience when you do not meditate is a personal dissatisfaction. 'But then, what is the disadvantage and advantage of actually doing service, satsang and meditation, and really realizing what Knowledge is? Well, the disadvantage is that we have to do meditation. But it's so beautiful because that also has an advantage. Meditation is always within inside of us and if we just concentrate inside, if we really practice Knowledge, it's right there. So it's really beautiful, it's almost automatic. 'The second disadvantage is that you have to do service. But that is really not a disadvantage either, because we have to function, we have to work in this world. We work for our stomachs and all the crazy things in this world. So I don't think it would make any difference to us if instead we directed our actions to Guru Maharaj Ji. I think that's an advantage, not a disadvantage. But if somebody is lazy, that is a very, very big disadvantage. 'Then there is the next thing - you have to really DEDICATE yourself, you have to really SURRENDER yourself. Well, that is a disadvantage in a way, but then again it is not a disadvantage. The reason is, who are we anyway? We think we are Mr. Joe Blow, or we think we are so-and-so, but who we really are is just a puppet. Here we are today; the next minute we could be just totally gone, disappeared. But because we have these concepts, we have to keep on thinking these crazy things, 'Well, I can't surrender. I can't, I can't surrender.' But YES, you CAN surrender. You HAVE to surrender. And as a matter of fact, it doesn't matter what YOU think, you are in the hands of somebody else all the time. I mean, you already ARE just puppets.' Well, there you have it. Respectfully submitted, Gina

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 23:09:36 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Gina Subject: That was like a REAL Scary Movie! going to 'hell' Message:

Hell hath no fury like a guru on a stoned drunk rampage: You don't have to sit down and do meditation; you don't have to go to the ashram and do service; you don't have to do any service at all; you don't have to do ANYTHING. The disadvantage of that is where that puts you: in total darkness, total confusion, what we call in the English language, 'hell.' 'Then there is the next thing - you have to really DEDICATE yourself, you have to really SURRENDER yourself. Well, that is a disadvantage in a way, but then again it is not a disadvantage. The reason is, who are we anyway? We think we are Mr. Joe Blow, or we think we are so-and-so, but who we really are is just a puppet. Here we are today; the next minute we could be just totally gone, disappeared. But because we have these concepts, we have to keep on thinking these crazy things, 'Well, I can't surrender. I can't, I can't surrender.' But YES, you CAN surrender. You HAVE to surrender. And as a matter of fact, it doesn't matter what YOU think, you are in the hands of somebody else all the time. I mean, you already ARE just puppets.' So, cut da puppet-Master strings, ya poor lurking phlegmies out there! Think for yourselves instead of subscribing to superstitious bs Indian spoon-fed concepts about the self-proclaimed rugu greater than God.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:42:45 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Question for armchair psychoanalysts: M is a human Message:

being (let's assume) equipped with basic 'off-the-shelf' human psychological components. (I know this sounds a bit mechanistic, but bear with me for a moment): 1. Are there various kinds of conscience, the innate and the learned (or indoctrinated)? Any other kinds? 2. Is there a set of universal/fundamental human ethics, distinguished from regional, cultural or situational ethics? 3. What is the standard or measure of a healthy and balanced conscience, and can that ever be culturally neutral or unbiased? 4. What are typical behaviors that result from ignoring one's conscience? 5. Does M have a functioning conscience? If so, is it normal and healthy or something else? (or: Does M manifest behaviors consistent for someone with a healthy conscience?) I realize M was raised in an extraordinary situation, which has without question affected his thinking and world view. But I'm trying to understand the role of the human conscience in his case: Can one be and act with scrupulous ethics according to a cosmic dogma, and yet because of that be in conflict with a deeper sense of proto-ethics, if there be such a thing? [for example, soldiers, or even Arjuna: Do they not feel repugnance and regret, at some fundamental level, for killing people even if it is for a 'noble cause'? Or would a Timothy McVeigh have anywhere in his soul even a drop of regret for his monstrous and elaborate philosophically-self-justified actions, or is it possible that suppression and denial can become complete, total, absolute?] Certainly, there are conflicts with other institutional standards, legal standards for example, but I am thinking primarily about the possible emotional regret M could conceivably have for the enormity of his error. That is to say, we look on and judge that he is in utter delusion and error (which is, interestingly, exactly how we were trained by him to view ourselves and the rest of the world), and wish for him to acknowledge that and be ashamed and apologize. Is this even possible unless he has a crisis of conscience? I suspect that our vigorous denunciations will have little if any direct effect upon his conscience, although they evidently have considerable and increasing effect upon premies, bringing many to a clearer vision of their own self-delusion. But will this affect M himself? He is remote and protected by adoring sycophants, spectacular luxury, and a self-fulfilling and self-justifying cosmic philosophy. What could possibly penetrate that but the whisper of his own deepest conscience? And could he afford to listen? Does he have any sense of shame for going against some element of his conscience? Or is this a lost soul, completely filled with his overweening sense of his divine role, and that's that, buss, finished. He can simply do no wrong, ever. And in any event, never to admit it or explain. One wonders about how he feels, in his heart of hearts, about what he has wrought in terms of the human cost, the heart-wrenching waste of so many lives directed toward him for such self-aggrandizement. (I seem to recall something from the Mishler interview that suggests M had, at one point, a deep ambivalence about his role as 'master' ... I should go re-read that.) If this kind of discussion is too speculative to be useful, let me know. It's just how my thinking goes at the moment, bunches of unanswerable questions. Best wishes, (while sitting in my armchair tapping the old keyboard meditating and ruminating into the now late hours of the night...) C.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:12:08 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Carl Subject: Be true to yourself - don't waste time on M Message:

Hi Carl. Your post was really thoughtful, but my reaction to it is colored by weeks of disgust with the new premie sites. Carl, I think that one of the healthiest things to do is to focus on how you feel, and what seems right in your own heart, rather than trying to gain insight into the machinations of the purported Perfect Master's heart. We will never know what is at his core. We can only know how we found our own ways into and out of his cult. Trying to psychoanalyze Captain Rawat's conscience is an exercise in futility. We know how his behavior and his hypocrisy affected us as individuals. That is the test of our own assessment of his effect on our lives, that we have confronted and learned from. We can rely on the first hand reports of those who were closest to him, and can reliably report his behavior over a period of years, to inform our decisions. But I doubt we will ever really be given the facts about Captain Rawat's mental health given his exalted position within this cult. The questions you pose are so similar to some of those I would have asked my own alcoholic father who committed suicide when I was 17. Seek the answers to your own life's questions. Don't waste these intimate inquiries on him. I know, because of our email, that you have been through tough emotional times too. I do not mean to belittle your questions. Only to urge you along the path in a different way. Much love, Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 06:05:45 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: Marianne Subject: I try not to waste time on M . . . Message:

Hi Marianne, Thank you for your warm reply. I feel your concern, and am glad. Hope you are well and prospering. I can appreciate how my post may have appeared a tad obsessive, and perhaps it is. But the theoretical questions I pose vis-a-vis M are in some ways universal questions that I ask of myself as well. And the concerns aren't just about M, when you get right down to it. It's the whole issue of susceptibility to peer pressure, groupthink, responding to any charismatic figure, fear of rejection, suppression of one's own deepest conscience, mob mentality, all that stuff. Humans can herded like sheep, and provoked like rabid dogs, and this is frightening. I recall images of gleeful mobs celebrating the lynchings of blacks, not so very long ago in this country. Where is the conscience? Would I have had the strength to speak out? I recall images of the Holocaust. Where is the conscience? Would I have fought against it? I recall images of bullys and brutality against weaker members. Where is the conscience? Would I have been fearless in their defense? I always wonder. There was this psychological study about to what extent people would be willing to inflict pain upon other people if they thought that it was their duty to do so, for the purposes of some (contrived and staged) experiment. You probably know exactly which study I'm referring to. Even as a thought experiment, it is humbling to consider that one may have been only too willing to zap the poor subjects a little too aggressively just to please the experiment administrators. Re M, it is natural for me to wonder how he puts his ethical house in order. He is seen as a Master. Like a 'hero'. Someone of impeccable behavior. It is compelling to observe and consider the spectacle of his little world, wherein I spent some time, when fundamental ethics seem adrift if not forgotten altogether. PatC mentions the Golden Rule in this connection. As life goes forward, that rule gets more golden every day. Thank you again for your gracious reply, Marianne. Health to you always, Carl

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 06:18:43 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Carl Subject: The Stanford Experiment Message:

Oh Carl, I should have seen the greater issues you were addressing. I hope I have not offended you. You are probably referring to the Stanford Experiment conducted by Dr. Philip Zimbardo, concerning guards and prison inmates. (As an aside, Dr. Zimbardo was one of the defense experts in the Layton/Peoples Temple trials in which I was defense counsel). I think there is much to learn from these sociological experiments, for those of us willing to learn those lessons. Indeed, isn't that what we have devoted our lives to learning? We should never turn our eyes away from those lessons. You and I have shared some devastating emotional losses. I think those losses force us to see the world, and those around us, in a way that others who have not suffered the same loss can ever comprehend. And that is why Captain Rawat's message is so cheap. His message focuses on him, as an individual, as opposed to those of us who have learned life's lessons in the most difficult ways. How dare he suggest we should donate money to his next yacht when he has never learned the gift of compassion and understanding -- and giving to others? Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:26:10 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Be true to yourself - don't waste time on M Message:

so true marianne so true for me at least.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:45:22 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: donner Subject: donner guy... Message:

Please send me your email and phone number if you are so inclined. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:04:05 (GMT) From: gerry Email: gkl1@techline.com To: Marianne Subject: Marianne you social butterfly... Message:

Why don't you put the Irish Times interview on the web for all to read? It's very well done three page interview with Marianne in the 'Lifes Stories' section of the paper. Stuff on the cult and marianne's work as defense lawyer for death row inmates. Anyone have a suggestion where to put it? Dave? I have it in PDF format and so does Marianne, of course.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 05:52:33 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: gerry Subject: FA!!! ... ^^^^^^^ read Gerry's post!!!!^^^^^^(nt) Message:

I hadn't heard about this!

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 06:31:12 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Stonor Subject: I did - and so??? Message:

I just look after the forum. If you mean to say that the article should be published on someone's website, then by all means speak to someone who has a website:-) Forum Admin

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 07:06:20 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: That's fast! Message:

Just thought you might have missed something useful for EPO because it wasn't marked clearly. Why do you take it this way? Or am I misinterpreting your response? Anna

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 12:39:09 (GMT) From: Forum Admin Email: None To: Stonor Subject: I'll write this really slowly Message:

So that you can understand:-) I don't look after EPO. I just look after the Forum. Now is this clear? The webmaster looks after EPO, but he doesn't do much page updating these days. Jean-Michel does that, but he's very busy so if you want to suggest something, make sure it's well researched (like including a URL). Sir Dave and Roger Drek also have websites about Maharaji. Links to their sites are above, and I'm sure their email addresses are on their sites. Forum Admin who only looks after the forum and once had a website but it wasn't about gurus or meditating.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 16:47:38 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Forum Admin Subject: So sorry, I truly forgot. Thanks for patience.(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:51:13 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Carl Subject: Does Rawat have a conscience Message:

Apart from all the religious, moral and ethical definitions of conscience there seems to also be a very pragmatic definition: ''Enlightened self-interest.'' In other words, as one matures, one realizes that it is better to do unto others as you would have them do unto you for very practical reasons. If one does not develop this adult conscience then it is possible that the person is a sociopath or just pathetically stupid. While it is obvious that he does not have a fully developed adult conscience, I hesitate to guess at which of those two reasons fits Rawat best since I don't know the man.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:35:08 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: PatC Subject: of course! he's got 'con' down to a science! (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:17:59 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: PatC Subject: Does Rawat have a conscience ??? Message:

I wonder who knows him best, as a person, to shed insight into his real thinking. I mean, he exists as a performer, with his guru act and road show, and he has had the X-rated thing going where he (apparently) lets down his hair . . . but I wonder if he has ever just hung out with some fellas and just shared discussions without his 'master' role getting in the way. Just speculation, I know. He'd probably have to go into disguise, leave the entourage behind, and take a cross-country jaunt by himself on a Harley. Yeah, right. I just saw the film 'Nixon' tonight, and was very impressed. It was a disturbing picture about the abuses of power, self-delusion, and ethical dilemmas. Had a fair bit of resonance with what we have witnessed in cult-land. C.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:29:01 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Carl Subject: Marianne's answer was really good too. Nixon OT Message:

(Hi, Marianne - lots of love to you.) Yes, Carl, that was a good movie - pure Oliver Stone fiction of course but still interesting. It seems that Nixon had no conscience. He also was a heavy boozer and a liar, but I don't think he was a sociopath just a very stupid man who, like Rawat, thought he was cleverer than everyone else (a sure sign of stupidity.) He was also not a Washington insider or a blue-blood and was simply used by the establishment to further their interests and dumped when he became useless and an embarassment. Did you see Stone's JFK? But, like Marianne, I don't really care to analyze Rawat. I dis his public persona of ''Maharaji,'' yes - that's fun, but I don't like to think about his inner workings too much.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:51:58 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: PatC Subject: Agree with Pat Message:

Carl, I have made a couple of posts about my assessment of Captain Rawat's behavior and mental functioning which are in the Best of Forum. One is called Compassion or Condemnation. Perhaps it will enlighten you. There is another post entitled Deception at the Heart of the Cult, which draws analogies between the premies' and the cult's attempts to discredit their critics, just as Jim Jones tried to do. I hope you and others will read these posts and be informed that the current premie campaign mirrors that of Jim Jones against his critics. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:58:26 (GMT) From: Chuck S. Email: None To: Marianne Subject: ''Compassion'' and ''Deception'' Posts... Message:

Thanks Marianne. They were in the Best of Forum, under ''Maharajism''. For some reason, the posts there were wider than could be seen on my 800x600 resolution screen, which meant I had to scroll sideways for every line. Difficult to read. So I had to copy, cut and paste them into a text document to read. Since I've got them copied, I thought I'd just paste the two texts you had mentioned here: Date: Tues, Oct 24, 2000 at 02:57:58 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Compassion or condemnation? Message: I have been an active contributor on this forum for about a year and a half. I've come to love and appreciate the many permutations the discussions here take, and have developed personal relationships with a number of the regulars here. I've been preoccupied with my work lately, but I have been riveted to the discussions concerning Michael Dettmers' disclosures about M, DLM/EV, the ashrams, M's insatiable greed, drug use and attitude towards those close to him and below him. These disclosures and the discussions which they have prompted are moving our understanding of the cult and M forward as never before. I want to offer my personal thanks to Michael for making these posts. I was very skeptical of Michael for a long time. In the beginning of his contacts with some exes, I had the feeling that he was trying to steer a safe course between 2 worlds, because he had not fully rejected the M/cult world, nor had he cast his lot with the exes -- thus fully sealing his fate forevermore as an adversary of M, EV, and old friends. I now feel that I was correct in this assessment. This is not meant as a criticism. Michael had to go through the same process of confronting his experience with the cult that the rest of us did. It seems to me that he had not really dealt with many of the issues often discussed on the forum because he lived a very different life in the cult than most of us did. To Michael's credit, he seems to have grasped the enormity of the harm done to those of us who were the foot soldier devotees, who lived in the ashrams, gave up the best years of our lives and money, and were left with the chimera of a life when we departed the cult. That he has called upon M to apologize and to provide restitution to those who deserve it is remarkable, and no doubt is considered heresy in Malibu. I say, 'Right on, Michael. Keep those posts coming!' This brings me to the topic of this post. We have had an on-going discussion on the forum about we view M's ultimate responsibility for the mantle he assumed at a young age. Anth and others have said that they felt M was, in a sense, a victim of circumstance, having been told since he was a child that he was the Lord. Thus, his behavior has to been seen in that context, and we should have some compassion and understanding for him as a result. Others have argued that even if M was born into this situation, he knew and was involved in the machinations to retain and consolidate his power as early as 16 when he married Marolyn and then presided over the banishment of his mother and brothers to India. They argue that M taking control of DLM in the US and Europe demonstrates his true and predominant attitude about the affairs of the cult: as a money making machine for him. Therefore, he is to be condemned. As most of you know, I represent inmates on death row in California who have been sentenced to die. I take these cases in the last stages of review in an attempt to stave off execution and obtain a new trial for my clients. Day in, day out, I deal with the meaning of compassion and condemnation, who deserves which, and why. It is very hard work, but I have learned more about the nature of compassion and redemption in my years of working with society's outcasts than that fraud could ever hope to know himself. I do not have compassion for Prem Pal Rawat. I condemn him. I make this harsh judgment because Rawat has had every material comfort, every societal benefit, every desire -- even those others imagine he might have -- satisfied at every step of his life. What has he done with these never ending benefits? How has he treated those around him? What human suffering has he really addressed? We now know that he is a greedy, self centered little man who has an insatiable lust for power and material objects, no matter at what human cost. To me, that behavior, over so many, many years, must be condemned in the most vociferous manner, especially when we read here every day of the damage done in large and small ways to those who devoted their lives to him. I especially believe that Rawat and EV should pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to Abi and the other victims of sexual abuse by Mahatma Jagdeo. That Rawat continues to shun financial and corporate responsibility for the serial child molester he allowed to wander the planet is the most blatant example of his unwillingness to take responsibility for the lives he once embraced when it was financially beneficial, and then flung away when it was no longer convenient. I have compassion for my clients because they had nothing in their lives. I do not condone the taking of any life. These cases are a tragedy for all touched by them. But my clients were used and abused every step of their lives and knew no other way. They deserve compassion. Rawat deserves condemnation. He has more than earned mine. Marianne (Copied from: http://www.ex-premie.org/best/bof10242000025758.htm#P_0UJ4) Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 05:07:43 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message: On Saturday, October 21, 2000, Michael Dettmers started a thread (now in archives) which begins with his post entitled 'Email from Elan Vital'. Farther down in the thread, on Sunday, October 22, he made another post with the same title. Joe made the next post, entitled 'Being X rated', on October 23. Michael Dettmers' October 22 post disclosed that in order to work around Maharaji, and to be in his inner circle, a premie had to be 'X rated'. This meant that the premie had to be told that the rules that applied to ashram premies did not apply to M. In other words, M's behavior was not to be questioned and was to be kept secret. The premie had to accept this unquestioningly, and if s/he showed hesitation, they would not be allowed to serve in this capacity. Michael said that he interviewed many premies in order to determine if they met the X rated qualifications. I was very disturbed by this revelation and have pondered it repeatedly. Last night I finally understood why this information so affected me. As many of you know, I was one of the attorneys who defended Larry Layton at both of his trials -- he was the only person charged with a crime in the US related to the mass suicide at the Peoples Temple compound in Jonestown, Guyana. I learned everything there was to know about how Peoples Temple operated and how Jim Jones was able to convince his followers to administer poison to their children and then kill themselves at his command. What struck me so much about Michael's post about 'X rating' the people close to M is that this is exactly the behavior that happened in Peoples Temple with those around Jim Jones. Jones was presented to his congregation as a messianic, God-like figure, who was the embodiment of Christ, and who behaved (supposedly) in a Christ-like manner. In fact, like M, Jones drank to excess, abused drugs, had numerous mistresses amongst the congregation, perpetrated physical and emotional abuse upon those close to him and increasingly demanded larger and larger displays of devotion to him. In M's case, he demanded more ostentatious material donations as a demonstration of his followers' devotion. Jim Jones did not seek material assets -- he demanded that church members display their unquestioning dedication by carrying out his orders -- by doing things such as engaging in a physical altercation in a weaker family member in front of the entire church. Regular members of the congregation went along with these demands because they believed that Jones was living a Christ-like existence - a lie perpetuated by those closest to Jones. Those lies played a large part in why over 900 people went to Guyana and ultimately gave up their lives to Jim Jones. I can't help but see the similarity between the behavior of those closest to Jones and those close to M who were 'X rated'. Of course, M never took his flock to a remote jungle location in order to isolate them, no suicide ritual was practiced and then actually put to use. But, the way these organizations were run at the top is chillingly similar, and was designed to achieve the same result: allowing the leader to behave in a manner diametrically opposed to the rules set out for his followers, and investing those who perpetuated this lie to those below with power and prestige they would lose if they told the truth. Had those around Jones not perpetuated his lies, many people might not have followed him to the jungle and there have met their demise. In the same way, those around M who agreed to shield others from the knowledge that M did not have to play by the rules he insisted the rest of us follow on pain of forfeiting our souls, allowed people to give up their lives to ashrams and other devotional activities which were nearly the functional equivalent of suicide. People lost the best years of their lives based on this fraud. That is what I now grasp from Michael's post. I make this point because I think that it is time that the people who were and are around M realize the broad consequences in the lives of other premies of their blind devotion to M. Marianne (Copied from: http://www.ex-premie.org/best/bof10262000050743.htm)

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:22:49 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: These are strong medicine.Thanks for reposting /nt Message:

time for bed, C.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:07:18 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Travels with Charlie Message:

Below is a string of e-mails that began here. He answered me on my e-mail and I replied in kind. Due to the nature of the exchange, I thought it would be fair to all to know and see how this person operates. So the following is a string of e-mails between Charlie and me, with my original one last in line. Enjoy and beware. Sandy Subject: Re: To Charles the lawyer Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 00:03:06 -0400 From: Sanford Pass To: 'M. J. Truth' References: 1 Charles: How arrogant of you to assume that I have not found peace. In that one line you have revealed more about yourself than all the files on you at the bar association, your firm, your personal family papers, your parents' cardboard box of your stuff when you were a kid, your fingerprints, and your I.Q. test results, your bar exam and college boards, your best case you ever tried, plus any honorary organization you may be a member of. Let's go with what has been documented, that being the bicyclist's death. Tell me just about that one, Charles. Tell me you could look down into that ditch, see your own flesh and blood laying there, and then tell me you'd be able to cover for the person who put him or her there. Please tell me that or tell me something else. Tell me the truth about C.G. Serious as a heart attack, Sanford Pass Subject: Re: To Charles the lawyer Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 04:55:30 -0700 (PDT) From: 'M. J. Truth' To: Sanford Pass Thank you for your note. I do not believe the blanket allegations, or rather the implications to be gleaned from them, and you do. I say they are mostly exaggerated claims made by people with suspect motives, and you say they are credible charges. No amount of arguing will change that, so I suggest we agree to disagree. I'm not here to change your mind, and I'm sureyou have better things to do than to try and 'win me over.' Thank you for the civil tone, though. It is, sadly, a far cry from other notes I have gotten. Here's hoping that you find peace, Charles --- Sanford Pass wrote: > Dear Sir: > > I just read up on some of the > interactions between you > and some folks here on the ex-premie > forum. I have some questions for > you, if you would be so > kind as to answer. > > Would you be as 'I don't care' if > one of your children > had a really good business idea > and had it ripped off by one of > Maharaji's people and > subsequently made millions on > it? > > Would you be as 'I don't care' if > one of your children > had been molested by Jagdeo, > poisoned at DECA, propositioned by > Maharaji, or struck > and killed by Maharaji > himself while your kid was riding on > his bicycle? > > Would money appease your grief and > your sense of justice > if your son or daughter > were laying dead in a ditch tangled > in a twisted bike > that you might have bought him or > her for a birthday present, or > perhaps they earned the > money to buy it themselves, and > you had to identify him or her at > the scene or the > morgue? > > Furthermore, if you were in one of > the cars in the > entourage, would you let the Chinese > fire drill go down witout a word if > it was your child? > Are you that 'right-or-wrong' > devoted to Maharaji? Would you still > think that his > personal life is of no concern to you > and wonder why others are prying > into it? > > Could you write any or all this off > if it happened to > you and yours as easily as you are > able to do because it happened to > someone else? I would > appreciate a straight answer, > if you remember what that is. > > Sincerely, > > Sanford Pass > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:42:59 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Sandy Subject: Charles: Here's hoping that you find peace, Message:

The drip signs off to you: ''Here's hoping that you find peace,'' What a smarmy patronizing two-faced hypocritical arrogant condescending little twerp this Charles is. I'm sure he has peace of mind - NOT. Peace comes from having a clear conscience. How can anyone have a clear conscience by insinuating that someone else still has to find peace whereas the little jerk already has? Oh, sorry, I know - he's got K and is ever so superior to us mere mortals who never ever have peace. Sorry Charles you nasty little nerd you have lost any sympathy I may have had for you.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 00:40:33 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: PatC Subject: Charles: Here's hoping that you find peace in TIME Message:

Congradulations!...Your diligent practice with constructing 'compounded polysyllabic' insults are proving successful. Arrogant little dick, isn't he?

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:21:44 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: PatC Subject: Peace is all we can wish for anyone Message:

One of my ethical cornerstones is that I try to support anyone in life, liberty and the pursuit of peace/happiness as long as their peace doesn't come at the expense of someone else's peace. The 'I deserve peace and you don't' attitude is sick indeed. I saw this us-them battle played out during the US political debacle and I see it between premies and ex-premies. If a premie is at peace and can live with his relationship with M, so be it. But that wont stop me from trying to gain more clarity in my mind about M&K. After all, I am looking to be at peace with my choices and if that involves shining a spotlight on the dark wiggly things that are hidden in M's shadow, that's his problem and the problem of those who worship him. Fear of seeing the wiggly things wont make them dissappear. And starting websites called aint-no-wiggly-things.com only makes the spot light brighter. Richard Classic - who was Postie but never Richard II

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 15:46:32 (GMT) From: Sandy Email: None To: Richard Subject: 'Peace be unto you' vs 'I hope you find peace' Message:

One is a statement given laterally from the heart of one brother or sister to another. The other is a smarmy line of crap wrapped in religiosity. One is kindness and the other is the pretending to be kind. Anyone with a pulse and a good heart can see it. And this guy thinks he's flying under the radar? When he said he was a top laywer in a top firm, that was enough of a warning to expect this kind of behavior and worse. He doesn't realize what impresses who and where, so he flashed his credentials in a place that does not accept his credentials as the coin of the realm. I want CG truth from CG and MJ truth from MJ. Let's all speak for ourselves and from our own personal experience for a change. Then the cogs will engage and progress will happen in this conversation. As long as anyone is posing on either side, it's just gonna prolong the agony. Being straight ought to be a requirement to post, and by straight I mean accurate information, no speculation, and no head trips or power trips. I know this might sound boring to many, but I know from direct personal experience that communicating like I just described makes the energy level and the consciousness of the group go way up very promptly. Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 03:01:43 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Everyone Subject: changing Sofi to S Message:

or Debbie to D won't do it Charles. I told you the weekend is comming didn't I. Now let me see, what was that em-mail, oh yes here it is. Oh I really souldn't forget to say that Cee G.. is a bougous company, and that search I did on google that said something about Willkie yep all ready to go. Remove the fucking journey.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:53:56 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Salam Subject: Salam your last sentence didn't have any typos Message:

or syntax errors. What's wrong? You feeling okay? Go get him. I've lost all sympathy for him.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:54:45 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: PatC Subject: I hired a proof reader Message:

I was wrong about the weeked. australia is in the future. Well that should give charlie extra time.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:34:05 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Salam Subject: tell me that's a joke, Salam Message:

I need my daily dose of Salamese. There's something I need to ask you about. I email you tomorrow morning which will be tonight for you or is that yesterday?

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 13:02:05 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: PatC Subject: I wasn't aware that I had any sense of humor. Message:

I will check my e-mail and tell you in what space and time are you. Hang on to your vegies in the meantime

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:03:25 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: salam Subject: Sorry Message:

can tell you anything. E-mail gone to the wrong place.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:27:38 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Life's Great cult gopi [gurupie] mindlessness: Message:

'To me the most ultimate experience in my life became Guru Maharaj Ji not even Knowledge, and when it became Guru Maharaj Ji it was so beautiful because I could attach myself to that experience, because Guru Maharaj Ji was in this world, Guru Maharaj Ji was there, and I remember every experience of standing in front of Him and experiencing a state of Mindlessness, where even you can call upon the mind as loud as you want but it is not there. A stage of where future does not matter, past doesn't matter and you're definitely not in the present. I think that stage is called ecstasy an incredible bliss.' 'the most ultimate experience in my life became Guru Maharaj Ji not even Knowledge'. Oh, like the flipside of you are not receiving me but rather receiving my Knowledge, huh? This dumb bunny's a goner! 'when it became Guru Maharaj Ji it was so beautiful because I could attach myself to that experience'. An experience of what, groupiedom infatuation? 'I remember every experience of standing in front of Him and experiencing a state of Mindlessness'. Yep, guess a mind is a terrible thing to have! 'and you're definitely not in the present' Means then that you're nowhere, nonexistent, lost in blind adulation of another person. -- I think this stage of mental illness is called severe cult personality fixation, addiction, misguided infatuation, delusion - da proverbial guru bhakti voodoo juju. Incidentally, who fed and continues to feed that fixation and delusion via speeches, videos, photos, concepts, cult behaviors? 'You know who'! Peace and lentils

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:56:02 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: You're sooo unhip, Such Message:

Everybody knows that it's not like that anymore. Why just the other day in Nottingham, Mahahaharaji said that he isn't god and hasn't been god since 1966. He said: ''I never meant to say that I have come with greater power than ever before, greater than Krishna, Buddha or Jesus or even that I am greater than god. I meant to say that I have come with much less BO and better manicured nails, bigger houses, cars, yachts and planes and MUCH greater greed and insouciance.''

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 16:25:26 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: PatC Subject: Doesn't That Insouciance Just Get You, Pat?nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 09:34:00 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: PatC Subject: I Love You, Pat Message:

Pat, whoever you are, whatever you look like, you're a super-sweet guy and I love you. Steve

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 17:39:02 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Thanks Steve, I'm glad you see my goodwill Message:

You know I wish you everything of the best.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:55:54 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Poor kid, born too late for Sinatra or Elvis or Message:

Menudo or Mick Jagger or Rudolf Valentino. C.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:28:11 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Carl Subject: Yo, Carl: Message:

Please elaborate. You aren't a pwk, RU? Implying that in the old days, the LSD days, we stupid premies MINDlessly worshipped the Lotus Feet, whereas, these days, these more enlightened days, PWK's merely meditate...Guru M. being a (nudge-nudge-wink-wink) mere teacher?

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 04:57:16 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Yo, Gregg: Message:

Just riffing on the image of 'blissed-outed-ness' appearing so similar to adulation directed outward toward 'charismatic superstars'. This is a culture drunk with celebrity fixation, no? It just seems so amusingly yet sadly juvenile. And familiar, having been there, done that, long ago. Best wishes, C.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:35:33 (GMT) From: Greghg Email: None To: Carl Subject: Too true, Carl. Drunk on celebrity! (nt) Message:

x

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:45:25 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: And It Is (not) Divine Message:

Suchabanana points out: 'Incidentally, who fed and continues to feed that fixation and delusion via speeches, videos, photos, concepts, cult behaviors?' This pretty much says it all. The groups who market photos and videos of The Maximum Leader are into guru worship, period. There are only a few quasi-Hindu groups who don't promote bhakti juju, actually, like TM. Whatever its faults, at least it doesn't promote worship of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi as the supreme path to enlightenment. BTW, unlike many exes, I am not necessarily opposed to either bhakti yoga or learning from a guru. Guru worship is another matter though. One of the main points of EPO (and Such's post above), is that Guru Maharaji is a BIG FAT LIAR when he claims to be simply a non-Divine guide, like Oprah or even Deepak Chopra. Premies worshipped him; PWK's still kiss his feet. Tell it like it is, premies. Why hide your light under a bushel basket? Are you a little embarrassed to still be worshipping an Indian playboy, decades after the seventies have passed?

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:45:38 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: You had me fooled for a moment...Funny/nt Message:

Experiencing a state of Mindlessness, Experiencing a state of Mindlessness,Experiencing a state of Mindlessness,Experiencing a state of Mindlessness, Experiencing a state of Mindlessness,Experiencing a state of Mindlessness,Experiencing a state of Mindlessness, Experiencing a state of Mindlessness, Experiencing a state of Mindlessness, Experiencing a state of Mindlessness, Experiencing a state of Mindlessness, Don't mind me---I'm chanting! Now, Where Wuz I? Oh yea! Experiencing a state of Mindlessness, Experiencing a state of Mindlessness, Experiencing a state of Mindlessness, ..........

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:36:02 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I can't believe this dream I had last night Message:

I was at a premie program. Dettmers asked me to give satsang (thanks for the opportunity Mike!). I gave this impassioned rant which I relayed word-for-word to my surprised husband when I woke up. Something about having a direct connection to your source without needing an umbilical cord (which represented intermediary). And that it is okay to have an umbilical cord, and I understood that my audience really liked Maharaji for this purpose, and that was fine with me, but that personally I found him a fat, stupid con-man, no offense. I actually said 'no offense.' I was trying to be polite, but once the words 'fat, stupid con-man' left my lips, I knew my cover was blown. Next thing it was the next day, and it was darshan day. People were avoiding me and I was hearing rumors that I might not be allowed to go through the darshan line. Then I thought, 'Well, I don't want to go. I just won't go!' And I woke up feeling waves of empowerment and energy. Hah! That told him! The only thing is that it's been - what? - 17/18 years since I was involved with the cult at all. Some little part of me was apparently still in it until last night. I post this as encouragement to any of the new premies who may think they ought to be over it all immediately. Man, that shit has some deep roots! Believe me, in my conscious life, I haven't thought about MJ or even considered going to see him for nearly two decades. My only conscious remembrance of him is when I am at this site, and my main motivation is that I know how deep a hook this religious abuse (see excellent thread with this title below) sinks into the cells, the subconscious, the DNA almost. And I really am pleased that people have been able to be supported in exiting by having this site. And I don't think I would still be having such a dream if this site had been around when I left. So, new exiting premies, don't worry if you seem to sometimes backslide into some of the old cultish feelings and fears, and also, expect a fairly rapid and quite successful recovery. love Katie Darling

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 18:16:43 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Darshan Dreams etc. Message:

Hi Katie (and Richard, and Joe and PatC and Francesca and TimG and anybody else I know), Excellent tale. I had darshan dreams for many years after leaving the cult (the kind I would have LOVED to have when I was a premie but never did!). It used to unnerve me quite a bit. I also had lots and lots of dreams about being at programs and jockeying and competing for a good seat, and the program itself never actually started, it was just the whole dynamic of trying to get the best seat possible. I believe we've discussed this in its own thread, that whole competition, dog-eat-dog atmosphere. Anyhow, the most powerful of these darshan dreams I had in the 10-15 years after leaving the cult was probably about 10 years on, when I dreamed I met Maharaji at his residence and told him I would never be his devotee again, but would always love him. He then gave me a beautiful lace pillow as a gift for all my years of devotion. This was a very powerful dream for me in that it allowed me to integrate and claim the love I had felt, but make a clean and conscious and well-defined break from him. I felt very good after I had that dream. Now, of course, the love has faded into a distant memory, and seems totally unreal (and I get to own all my other feelings of dislike and anger), but at the time, I still needed to own that. Interesting note is that I have had much *less* in the way of darshan dreams since participating in EPO. It really has helped cut that umbilical cord, which, even though I consciously never had thought about Maharaji and felt like I'd severed the connection, was obviously still there. Yes, they really do go deep, those threads, and this is such an excellent place to be to help untangle and dissolve them and get free of the whole murky tangle. I think *any* lurking or hanging here really is valuable no matter how long you've been out, there's always more subtle layers to uncover. Take care, all. Joy

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 18:41:09 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Joy Subject: Oh Freunde! Hi, Joy. Message:

Lovely to see you here again. Hope you are well and happy and NOT having any darshan dreams. The last one I had many years ago was weird. I was flirting with Durga Ji and M came and started screaming at me and I told him that he did not appreciate her and to fuck off. I don't analyze dreams because to me they are simply hard-drive cleanup time. When I'm asleep my brain sorts out stuff, files the good stuff and trashes the shite. But I do enjoy my dreams especially the Dali-esque ones after eating cheese before bedtime.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:57:43 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Disculta Subject: I can't believe this dream I had last night Message:

Great story and truly amazing to hear how you continue to reclaim your personal power and authority. We laid ourselves wide open and the hook was set deep. The last several times GMJ appeared in my dreams it was as an equal - just two powerful people. Interesting for me to see myself as the source of the power and not fear his. Very different than believing it all flowed from him.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:28:32 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Disculta Subject: peaceful sleep Message:

You are so right Katie, the support of this site makes a profound difference to an exiting premie....I am relieved and happy to say that I have slept peacefully since exiting, now well over a year. Thought it was a great dream, you actually got to call him a stupid fat con man whilst speaking your truth!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:47:29 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Disculta Subject: I don't dream about Balyouguesswhat but Message:

every now and then I'll have a guilty pang that maybe I have thrown away my chance at immortality. This usually happens just as I am about to fall asleep and am not thinking clearly. The god in a bod poison that he fed us is not some minor ''cultural misunderstanding.'' I'm very annoyed by this lie of his and intend to demand an apology. I don't expect it which is why I come back to FV again and again. Until Rawat offers the antidote to his poison in the form of a grovelling apology, FV is my antidote. But I will keep on nagging the lying son of a brahmin.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:07:11 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: PatC Subject: Rawats reinvented family roots, too. Message:

e.g. 'son of a Brahmin'. Brahmin: priest/highest caste. But the unholy family used to represent that they came from the warrior/king/administrator caste. Also, e.g. m. and dupes at times have represented that m. came from a rich family that were kings once upon a time. But, Shri Hans came from poor peasant farmer stock. Any riches derived from gurudom.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 06:38:00 (GMT) From: Bob Email: None To: such Subject: Singh , does that not mean Message:

that they were sikhs?

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:08:03 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Bob Subject: yeah, they are sikh, sikh, sikh... (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:42:04 (GMT) From: Carl Email: None To: such Subject: Called Kshatrya, I think, something like that /nt Message:

yowza

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 19:10:31 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: such Subject: Mata Ji was a brahmin Message:

I was going to say son of a bitch but decided to be polite.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 07:27:56 (GMT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: PatC Subject: So,Rawat family were caste climbers and racists... Message:

From the EVI press kit: 'Now added to this he was maintaining a discreet romantic liaison right under the noses of a family that would certainly disapprove of such a relationship on grounds of race and caste.' 1. Marolyn was not a member of any phuqued-up Indian caste system. 2. Shri Hans climbed in caste by marrying da Mata hari ji. He came from peasant fodder. m.'s paternal genes are from dung elephant field plodders. 3. In India, it is common practice to advertise for a spouse in the newpapers, especially citing one's race or skin color -- and the LIGHTER the better. Hence, m. moved up the social ladder [also in America] by marrying an Aryan blonde with white skin. Also enabling him to get a green card, then citizenship, and thereby stay in the materialist US and not have to live in backward India, which he often mocks in his diatribes. 4. 'family that would certainly disapprove of such a relationship on grounds of race and caste' is an assumption. As we well know, assume makes an ass outa u and me. Another way for m. and EVI to discredit his own Rawat family competition [aka Satpal] over in India. 5. hey EVI: how about substituting 'disapprove of a sexual relationship between a 15 year old fat pimply spoiled KID guru and a 25 year old foxy WOMAN devotee'? that's closer to the truth. Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 08:52:39 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: a wondering saddhu - I am tra la la la la- NOT Message:

Rawat Senior had some kshatriya blood but it was tainted by the sikhs (who have not observed the caste system for 400 years.) Mata Hari Ji (thanks for that - your puns have been good tonight - the science of con etc) had Nepalese brahmin blood. Rawat Senior's first wife was a kshatriya but she only bore daughters (Pimple Rawat's half sisters) so Hans took a second wife while still married to the first - this time a girl from a poor brahmin family - not much of a dowery but definitely a step up the caste ladder. Mata Hari produced the four stooges we know. Pimple Rawat thought the blonde leggy air hostess was a step up. Mata Hari thought it was a step down. If you know any brahmins then you know they would think Prince Charles is a step down. So much for sanyassis.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 18:45:54 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: PatC Subject: Shri Hans:marrying Mata Hariji was sure Big of me! Message:

BIGAMY! As the Mormon fathers used to say: Bring 'em plenty and Bring 'em Young! boo hoo - First wife only bore daughters -- maybe the only legit claimants to the alleged Rawat crown. He wanted sons -- like a typical sikh guru -- to pass along the family business in trad dyed in the wool chauvinist fashion. So, he marries da down on her luck brahmin mata hari ji [she be a young thang then, too] -- after all, he was just a poor caste away himself. Leggy Marolyn literally was a step up for Prem -- the lil' man who would be King. At the 1974 Denver wedding, she'd have towered over him [probably unacceptable egowise], were it not for her shedding conventional shoes for the occasion. Peace and lentil dahl curry, P.S. If you knew Prince Charles, then you'd know that ANY self-respecting bra-man queen would think him a step down! Besides, he's terminally obsessed with living inside some hag's trousers.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:08:40 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: such Subject: Bigamy. All knew both Hans' wives were alive Message:

at the same time. pimple Rawat used to call her his stepmother euphemistically. It was not mentioned much in the west probably because it was embarassing. I guess the rawat family business didn't like people to know that Hans had put the old girl out to pasture and taken a teenage bride, Mata Hari Ji, while old Mrs Rawat chewed her cud in the background. Holy Cows!

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 09:21:53 (GMT) From: Standing on Two Feet Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Shame on You Message:

I have, in the course of a couple of weeks, read most of what is posted here. I believe Dettmers, I believe Donner and I believe others who have chosen to tell it as it is. Walking away is not easy but my bridges are already burning so I have no choice but to let go, after all these years. In some ways I preferred the early days … I was young and felt that I had found meaning to my restless life and something significant to contribute to. Possibilities seemed endless. But, as I grew up, I began to tire of it all and eventually left the ashram because I wanted a life of my own and friends who were ‘normal’ i.e. who helped, supported and cared for each other. I could never figure out why, if this Knowledge was so powerful, that it didn’t make those practicing it into the sort of people I wanted to spend my time with. I guess the truth is that practicing Knowledge is about devotion to M and that seems to be a singularly selfish pursuit. Since then, in hindsight, I’ve had one leg in and one leg out … but I’ve now decided to reclaim the one leg in … so here I am, standing on my own two feet. Apologies if this has been asked before … but I still can’t figure it out: How did M’s drinking start? I presume he didn’t sneak out one night for a ‘walk around the block’ and return with a brown paper bag … so who aided and abetted him in the first place? And didn’t they find it alarming given that he was presumably, at that time, under-age … not to mention ‘Lord of the Universe’ and living manifestation of Knowledge? Did everyone think it was a joke that went horribly wrong … but by then everyone was caught in a web of deceit? I presume that there must have been a collective, spoken or unspoken, decision that the premies should never know the truth. Which leads me on to what REALLY bugs me: Given that a decision, spoken or unspoken, was taken … WHO had the right to deny me, as an adult, the freedom to make my own ‘informed’ decisions? To receive Knowledge realistically means walking a path of devotion so WHY was I denied the right to know the truth about the man who claimed to be the Perfect Master, albeit often in the 3rd person. Surely, if this man is/was the Perfect Master … then no-one, including him, needs to be ashamed of his behaviour? SHAME ON YOU ALL, INCLUDING YOU MAHARAJI

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:55:37 (GMT) From: Timmi Email: timmi56@yahoo.com To: Standing on Two Feet Subject: Shame on You Message:

Two Feet, you give me hope for my husband. At times, I feel more positive about him eventually seeing the real light. Today, I am really bummed about it. He said something this morning about his 'love for Maharaji', and my heart fell. Sometimes, it is tough to keep going. I thank you all for your support and encouragement.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 21:20:43 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Standing on Two Feet Subject: Both feet now on the floor Message:

It is a shame isn't it, that we wasted so many years and tears trying to do the right thing when all the while behind closed doors the Goo was having a big ongoing party. I came on board in 1972 looking for answers beyond the problems of a Viet Nam Vet (1967) and the misadventures of a Haight Ashbury flower power experience(1968). Communes and causes compiled with heavy doses of dugs and alcohol left me empty and searching still. When I stumbled upon the Goo and his band of merrymen in 1972, I thought for sure that I was on a lifelong track to spiritual fullfillment. It is a shame that had I known the truth about the Goo, I could have gotten on with myself and my life much sooner, instead of 29 years later (I exited Jan 2001). I recall a huge hypocritical episode in India when the Goo gave us this big lecture about not smoking and how he could not imagine anyone breathing in that pollution. That and all the sexual taboo's that were constantly bandied about and drugs were unmentionable. All the while .... the Goo was carrying on behind closed doors. I think Bob Mishler caught on early, he was the first of the insiders to bail and speak out. His untimely death silenced what would possibly be a loud and clear voice given todays opportunity to be heard. Even so, he left a very valuable legacy and his insights can be reviewed here on the EPO. It's good to hear from you Two Feet, and thanks for the intelligent post, it sounds as if you are planting both of your feet firmly on the ground today.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:59:46 (GMT) From: Lesley Email: None To: Standing on Two Feet Subject: The Emperor's new clothes Message:

Hi, sotf, One of the first things I remember reading when I found this site was AJW retelling that famous fairy tale. The first decision I made was to publically refute my erroneous belief in Maharaji. I liked your post very much, a very clear statement. Personally, I decided to back off from getting hot under the collar with everyone, (and I included everyone who knew I was in a cult and didn't say anything to me), for a while until my perspective was broader. I found that I was involved in a fascinating learning curve on human beings, what we are made of, how we work, what we are capable of, the tools we use and misuse. I would like to think that if I had been approached to join the x-rated club, I would have been a whistle blower, however, I sincerely doubt it. A friend of mine told me a story about a journalist in roumania. He hated Ceaucescu, who was having a rally, he went along and pushed himself towards the front, as he got close, he opened his mouth, and with utter conviction called out 'I love you'. Best regards, Lesley

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 18:43:30 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Standing on Two Feet Subject: Welcome, SOTF Message:

When I first saw your headline 'Shame on You', I thought, uh oh another defensive premie trying to protect his religion and lord. After reading your post, I saw how clear and direct your questions are and how impossible it is to get a straight answer from a practicing premie. The reason it is impossible is precisely the 'one foot in and one foot out' delima. I remember quite clearly when it was explained that the west had a long material foot and short spiritual foot and India had the opposite. Therefore, M&K would perfectly compliment our western mindset. But now that M has grown a behemoth-sized material foot, the metaphor is laughable. Your description of reclaiming your other leg and standing on your own two feet works perfectly to describe the exiting process. When we reclaim our personal power, as Donner says, we can stand on our own without the imagined support of a bizarre belief system. As far as the shame part, I speak for myself but I think many of us have felt a twinge of shame for having stayed in so long and for having kept the cloak of mystery intact for so long. Part of my purpose here is to welcome yourself and others to the world of the upright bi-peds and shine a bit of Ru (light) on the Gu (darkness).

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 17:36:36 (GMT) From: PatC Email: None To: Standing on Two Feet Subject: Welcome, Two Feet. Your questions Message:

are our questions. That's why we're here. I don't have the answers to yours but someone else will. That's what's so great about a forum. You get many different POVs and snips of info. The honest, straightforward talk and intelligent, concerned company are what keep me here. It is such a contrast to the rubber double-speak and the selfish navel-gazing of the cult.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 15:44:02 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Standing on Two Feet Subject: Shame on You Message:

hi standing on two feet. congradulations on bringing your other leg under you, reclaiming more of your own power. i was one who aided and abetted m for many many years. i rarely was the one who literally purchased the cognac he drank daily from the first day in america...age 13, it was almost always someone on the residence staff, cooks, butlers whoever. and certainly there was a conscious conspiracy to keep this information from premies and the public. yes, it was and is a path of devotion and it is interesting that you wonder about your right to know who you were devoting yourself to at that time. there was always this false distinction between m the 'man' and m the 'master'. remember all those disticntions about m not being perfect, that the knowledge was perfect...somehow a perfect gift coming from an imperfect package, and the gift never contaminated by the package. in retrospect of course, it doesn't make any sense...but there was the whole lila concept floating around...the master can do anything in this world and not be affected by it...etc. etc. so,yes, the details and personal information about m was kept secret...a process called x-rating...who knew and who didn't, etc. (lots about this in the best of the forum section, archieves, etc). no excuses, just how it was back then...and still is when you hear how current premies constantly separate m's personal life from his public personna..from the giver of the gift, so to speak.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 23:18:37 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: michael donner Subject: JM, another saver............nt Message:

gdhjsd

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 20:22:14 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Question for you Mike... Message:

Hi, we've haven't met. I'm Deborah Rose. I understand how you and other X-raters were involved and the twisted paradox of master and man and of course, Lila. I was also aware of M's drinking (although not to the extent!)toking, etc. and it did not interfere with the whole Premie reality, but this is where I do get confused: How does Marolyn (today!) and the children fit into this scheme? I understand the late 70's Marolyn and babies scene but I do not and cannot understand the contemporary 00's Marolyn and grown up kids reality? Are they fooled? Are they perpetuating the scam? Please shed light!

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:10:39 (GMT) From: Timmi Email: timmi56@yahoo.com To: Deborah Subject: Question for you Mike... Message:

I don't know Marolyn, but I know Daya. It's hard to know where she's really coming from; if she swallows the whole thing or if she's playing along. It seems to be a comfortable life, so maybe she is going along with it all. She's 22, so hopefully she will wake up soon, or get tired of the scam.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:56:45 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Question for you Mike... Message:

hi i couldn't begin to comment on the children...hardly on anything past about 89 for direct information...though i do know some still deeply involved. marolyn has always been completely co-dependent with the scene. the few times she tried to affect some change in behaviour she was bullied....my observation...and coopted in other ways, even threatened around who would get the children once at least that i personally know of...she also got into drinking a fair amount herself as dealing with it all... but i am out of the loop for hard info of late. children? what can they really do until they are a bit older...and all that money honey...hard for any child of any age to walk from...but others will have more current info.,

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 16:06:55 (GMT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Shame on You Message:

Having been involved with 'knowledge' for nearly 30 years, I am pretty sanguine about most of the experiences I went through. As I have said before, I was on the periphery of it all most of the time. However, every time I read about how GMJ was drinking alcohol 'from the first day he arrived in the US' and that steps were taken to keep it from the premies I get really really angry and feel that I have been deceived in a major way from the very beginning. We have here a man whose inner core is based on deception and has been from the very beginning. The events of today as seen on this forum and the events to come result directly from this deception and nothing else.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 00:58:26 (GMT) From: Richard II Email: None To: Voyeur Subject: Shame on You Message:

I have a question for you. Why do you feel you needed to know the intimate details of Maharaji’s life before Knowledge would be real. Either it’s real or not. Is Knowledge just four techniques that can be gotten off the internet? Anybody who tells you that doesn’t know what they’re talking about. And what kind of help are looking to Maharaji for? Are you not an independent adult who makes your own decisions about your life? My take is if Maharaji wants to drink more heavily than me I don’t give a damn. It’s irrelevant, really. And that goes for every other aspect of his life. He gave me Knowledge and his support of me understanding it has been impeccable. That’s all I want from him. Period. How he deals with the pressures surrounding his unique role in life is not my business. I am just thankful he continues to take the time to help me preserve the most precious thing I have ever found. To the main issue at hand, which is discovering the sanctity of life and fulfilling its promise, this focus on dettmers’ and donner’s account of his personal life is a red herring.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 06:08:49 (GMT) From: Pedro Email: None To: Richard II Subject: Question for richard Message:

Dear Richard , ~I am aspirant and I would like you to explain why is not just 4 tekniqs. I try to meditate on the tekniks I got from internet and i do feel peace and have some experience like little bit of light and sounds ringing . I don't know. Anyway what maharaji give me when I one day get knowlidge that is more ? Pedro

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 14:53:01 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Richard II Subject: Another question for Richard II Message:

Richard II, I have a question. This is something I am really wondering about and it isn't a trick question. Like Francesa just below, I also left Maharaji before I knew much of any of the information now gathered here. You pretty much discount the importance of the negative information, and while I disagree, I don't think premies stay with or leave Maharaji based on his lifestyle. You may have seen my list of the Official Premie Belief System. I think that there are some basic beliefs that keep a person involved with Rawat as the Master. Most basic is the belief that there is something about myself as a human being that needs to change and this change can come about as a result of the influence of 'the Master' who always comes and who is now in the person of Prem Rawat. I came to the point in 1997 where I no longer had any positive feeling about any of the following beliefs: (1) that I need to improve my human consciousness, or (2) that people need a Master in order to change, or (3) that Rawat is any kind of a Master. From what you say about your practice of the Knowledge meditation and your continuing dependence upon Mr. Rawat's guidance, it seems you have a certain world view about yourself and the goal of human life and the nature of the universe. Would I be correct if I described your world view roughly as follows: human beings who are born into this world have an imperfect consciousness that needs to be elevated; Rawat is a person who is in the ideally elevated consciousness; by practicing Knowledge for my whole life my consciousness will slowly rise to the level of Rawat's. In addition, some of his 'energy' will rub off on me, so to speak, and help in the elevating process. This process is the essence of all religion. Jesus saving sinners is another example. Buddha reaching Nirvana is still another. This process is the true purpose of life, and all other aspects of human life is secondary. A simple life of 'ordinary' human consciousness and 'ordinary' human love would not be a total success. I would never be completely fulfilled as a human being unless I follow the Master and enter into the perfect consciousness. The simple, natural human state of humility to the Higher Power and loving others as myself would not be enough for me. All people who do not elevate their consciousness remain inferior. So my question, Richard II, is: Does the above paragraph fairly describe your belief system, and if not, could you please explain what your belief system is that makes you continue to practice Knowledge under Rawat's guidance? Please do not give me the answer that it is simply a matter of experience for you! I already know what the experience of Knowledge is, from my own experience and from knowing many premies and being able to tell what they are experiencing, to some extent. I am not at all interested in what your experience is, because that would not tell me anything that I don't already know. And please do not tell me that you are living your life without any belief system at all, because I wouldn't be able to understand or believe that. What I don't know, and what I am trying to get a handle on, is what current premies believe about the goal of Knowledge. Surely they don't practice it in a total philosophical vacuum, that would be humanly impossible. I am getting the impression that what distinquishes a premie from an ex-premie is something very basic and it is primarily this belief that human consciousness needs elevating. Thanks. -Way

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:58:13 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Richard II Subject: Guess what, I dumped him BEFORE I knew this stuff Message:

Like years ago. I got sick of him and his organization. The yuppie Simon Sez religion (oh, Maharaji's changed things again -- no one can give satsang, blah, blah, he changed the techniques a little, no baragons, just leave your arms up there in the air, blah blah). So I am here to testify brother, that even if he never had a drop of hooch, even if he didn't have Monica Lewis and his other babes, even if he hadn't run over the bicyclist, even if Jagdeo had never sexually abused children and gotten away with it, the fact remains, he's still not a very compelling teacher, in my book. He's a histrionic and hokey public speaker. He screams and coos. He tells arrogant jokes, and insinuates that everyone is lost and that we need him to show us the way. And there are a lot of other forms of meditation, not to mention being free of having to be grateful to Rawat for the rest of my life. And I don't put ANYBODY on the pedestal HE IS STILL ON TODAY WITH THE PREMIES. Up on the stage. Ooohhhh and aaaahhh. Joan Apter in tears -- let me serve you, oh please, oh please! Foot kissy at Amaroo. Enthralled premies laughing at every joke. How divoon. Oh swoon. OH BARF. So if you enjoy it. FINE. So do some of my friends. They think he is speaking JUST TO THEM. But luckily they are civil enough not to give me the barfy details of their devotion. And I spare them the details of my lack of respect for M. But they don't come to the ex-premie forum. On here, I can tell it like I see it, like I would in my own home without any premies present. --Henry the VIII

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 18:52:36 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Brava Francesca, me too! Message:

It occurred to me reading your post that I rejected the MKPD cycle (MaharajiKnowledgePremieDevotion) without any 'evidence' or 'data' to convince me in a logical way. I rejected M energetically and from my own gut and sense of self empowerment that was diminished by M. Much later when I had forgotten why I quit practicing K, it required the logic and analysis provided here to complete my exit.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:28:28 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Richard Subject: Bravo Richard, me too! Message:

The analysis and logic to complete the exit. Yes, yes. My husband didn't need most of it. When I discussed this stuff with him, he was, for the most part, already there. But I believe that even our small discussions at home on this (compared to my large discussions on the forum) have framed the issues and pulled together how we each feel individually about M, K, Buddhism and sprituality in general. (At least for today!) He is supportive of what we are doing on the Forum in the way of providing the processing needed for some of us to cut the umbilical cord(s) and to warn unwary spritual travelers to seek elsewhere. love, f

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 20:34:50 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Yes, it's good to 'cut the imbecilical cords'! /nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 05:32:37 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Richard II Subject: Shame on You Message:

ok richard II...put aside m's personal life for a moment...from where does he get his authority... to make his claims, to hold sway over so many lives? is it some lineage? some past down thru the ages master story? or does it come from his own personal integrety?? if it comes from within him, from his own integetry then his duplicity is absolutely relevant>

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 02:55:37 (GMT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: Richard II Subject: Shame on You Message:

Unfortunately one of life's lessons is that while you can delude yourself and intellectualize that the man is what he says he is not what he actually is, the reality as I have always found it, much as I did not want to, with GMJ and everyone else, is that the man (GMJ or anyone else) is ALWAYS what he is and not what he says he is. I don't want anything from him - but I do object to having given money to support his lifestyle that would have been better spent on myself - not now but when I was in my early twenties and had little - after all, we were told that we were giving to support his mission to spread this knowledge to every land - yes I know the person who wrote that song - not for him to live the high life under the pretence of doing it. But then the man is always what he is, not what he says he is.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:11:58 (GMT) From: Richard II Email: None To: Voyeur Subject: Shame on You Message:

>>Unfortunately one of life's lessons is that while you can delude yourself and intellectualize that the man is what he says he is not what he actually is, the reality as I have always found it, much as I did not want to, with GMJ and everyone else, is that the man (GMJ or anyone else) is ALWAYS what he is and not what he says he is. I agree. I didn’t say he is what he says he is. But what is he? And more importantly what is required in a Master. Should a Master be someone who is an example of the current concept of piety so that, by his example, we will have somebody to emulate, and by so doing we can be a part of a grand, virtuous society? By his example, we would know the appropriate number of drinks to have, that cigarettes are a no-no, and having sex with someone other than your wife is not accepted. Now is THAT what a Master comes to do? Not for me. All I want from him is Knowledge, period. And in the giving and teaching around Knowledge, no matter what he does in his personal life, I have the utmost respect for his strength, his wisdom, his clarity, his kindness, his forbearance, and his passion. You see, I don’t want Jerry Falwell as a role model. I want somebody who can show me how to be alive. >>I don't want anything from him - but I do object to having given money to support his lifestyle that would have been better spent on myself - not now but when I was in my early twenties and had little - after all, we were told that we were giving to support his mission to spread this knowledge to every land - yes I know the person who wrote that song - not for him to live the high life under the pretence of doing it. Gifts to Maharaji and gifts to support his work have been separated for a long time. Michael Dettmers, and the IRS, can contend that Elan Vital monies do not go to him personally. And if you think 30+ years of travelling the globe incessantly, the result of which is Knowledge being practiced in over 80 countries, is just sitting in a mansion living the high life, well, at best Voyeur you’ve missed a key point or two.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 22:07:08 (GMT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: Richard II Subject: Shame on You Message:

Oh I think I've got the key points. That's why I see that while there may be a legal separation between GMJ and Elan Vital, there is no real separation. What is the purpose of Elan Vital without GMJ - nothing. Where does all the money given to Elan Vital go? To support 'private rented jets' - specifically from companies owned nominally owned by people in the Maha's entourage. And on and on it goes from there to every other facet of this fraud that has been perpetrated. Yes I think I have the key points.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 21:00:54 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Richard II Subject: 'The Satguru shows no discrepancies...' Message:

The most important thing is to find a Teacher, but he should be one who practices what he preaches. There are plenty of gurus in the world but the true Master, the Satguru, shows no discrepancies between what he says and what he does. A real spiritual teacher will never tell you to merely believe what he says but forget about what he does. -Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj, Manav Dharam Magazine, July 2001

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:51:42 (GMT) From: Moley Email: None To: Richard II Subject: Richard II - Maharaji - ' dealing with pressures'? Message:

Do me a favour! If he is the Lord incarnate why would he need to get rat-arsed? Why would he feel 'pressures' at all?? If he's just 'Mr Ordinary Guy' then why the fuck do you you take anymore notice of him than you might do of, say, me, for example? For Christ sake man - use your brain for something more useful than spouting this garbage you've been indoctrinated with.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:36:08 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Richard II Subject: WHO asked YOU? You're not welcome here.... Message:

You're deplorable accusations against Susan and Abi are in- fuckin-excusable. Condoning sexual offenses against premie children (or adults) is inexecusable even if the fuckin prick was the Lord of the fuckin Universe. You appear to have more than cult-skeltons in your closet!!!

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 19:24:44 (GMT) From: Richard II Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Well if you are, then I'm glad I'm not welcome Message:

Forgive me but, what!? --- “condoning sexual offenses against children”???? I’m not going even respond to that, and just ask you to go back and read my posts to Abi. I can safely say we both DON’T condone sexual abuse. The difference is in how we react to it in this case.

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Date: Sat, Jul 07, 2001 at 00:53:30 (GMT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Richard II Subject: You are full of shit! Go back and read your posts Message:

Don't revise history for me DICK, you have condoned sexual abuse and your reputation on the line. Go Home, get out of here, you're not a trusty-worthy person. Have you ever been sexually abused? If not, the how do you know how you'd react to it? If you have been sexually abused, who are you to say how someone else should react to it? If it was someone other than a GURU M CULT figure--would you have said the same thing? And your also in a mind-fucking cult. You're soul's being raped as you read this. However, that's the least of your problems. Truly a very UGLY person. And truly, a very Little, little, little, little insignificant lifeform.

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 01:30:46 (GMT) From: Bill Clinton Email: None To: Richard II Subject: Richard #2, where were you when I needed you? NT Message:

j

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Date: Fri, Jul 06, 2001 at 15:04:33 (GMT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Bill Clinton Subject: Hi Bill Message:

If you've been following this forum the last few weeks, you know that I used to be afraid of falling in love with a woman online only to find out it was a man I fell for. Well I don't give a shit any more and I think you were the best president the U.S. ever had, at least in my lifetime. Steve

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 11:13:16 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Standing on Two Feet Subject: Welcome! Maharaji and Scotch Message:

Welcome, Two Feet (may I call you that?), I don't know the answer to your question about Maharaji's drinking, but I did hear an anecdote many years ago. Maharaji was returning to the US from the UK, and George Blodwell was ashram secretary in the Edinburgh, Scotland, ashram. George's leaving gift to Maharaji was a bottle of Scotch Whisky. The anecdote goes that Marolyn expressed concern (which may have been mock concern) and said that's he (Maharaji) had never drunk alcohol (or was it just Whisky?) before. So maybe George Blodwell is the man you're looking for. Last heard of he was dressing the rich and famous in LA. John Brauns

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 12:37:15 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: JHB Subject: it's a conspericy Message:

that started with shri hans and continued with maharaji. He is the one that denied you access to what the real truth is. you need to search this site on m's indian origins and bob mishler interview. there is a short version [not complete] on it-IS-so read also Sir Dave and Rogers websites.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 05, 2001 at 10:35:42 (GMT) From: magiclara(clarence) Email: None To: re Standing on Two Feet Subject: Shame on You Message:

Hi Good on you I had one foot stuck in the rawat quagmire for years and did not even know it. I am off on holiday now but will hopefully talk to you in the future. Best wishes Magiclara

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