Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Jul 10, 2001 at 04:47:33 (GMT)
From: Jun 29, 2001 To: Jul 08, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


PatC -:- Thank you, Charles Glasser -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:18:58 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Sheesh, Pat, I apologized for swearing! -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 22:43:56 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Isn't it fun, Katie? -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:07:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Well, not really -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:11:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- My potty mouth gets me in trouble all the time -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:34:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Yes, thank god I don't have kids -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:38:57 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry Garcia -:- Sheesh, Katie, I was communicating all the time! -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:02:37 (GMT)
__ cq -:- who gave some pretty hip advice to law students... -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:31:48 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Such as: '12. Not Losing your Mind...Possible?' -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:35:21 (GMT)
__ salam -:- bullcrap -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- Salam, ELK is copyrighted! -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 22:46:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Hypocrites? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 09:18:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Probably the wrong word -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 15:45:23 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Salam -- he didn't copy it -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:01:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Redhawk -:- Salam -- he didn't copy it -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:31:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Good point -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:35:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- I don't think so. -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:59:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- A technological fix -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 11:16:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- On point, John, and Salam a correction to my post -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:48:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hey F - not links -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:53:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You're right -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:03:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- They're aint linked -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:01:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I don't think so. -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:31:38 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Intellectual property - Bill Gates needs you -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:42:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- fuck bill Gates -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:07:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- we need copyright -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:08:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- John, please read my post to Salam, above -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 22:49:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Katie -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- To Katie -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 15:36:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- To Cynthia -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:44:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I don't think it is either -- I agree n/t -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:35:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- on the contrary -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:05:52 (GMT)

Timmi -:- damn broadcasts -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:54:55 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- When God Takes The Piss ..... -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:50:58 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- damn broadcasts - vent a bit more, Timmi -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:58:39 (GMT)
__ __ Timmi -:- damn broadcasts - vent a bit more, Timmi -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:13:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- There is also the Indian background... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 07:31:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- He's hooked on ''the feeling'' -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:28:03 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- What's With The Obsession With Charles Glasser? -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:13:03 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Just Checked Out Charles' Fantastic Site Again -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:02:03 (GMT)

Jim -:- Testing the waters talking with premies -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:08:16 (GMT)
__ MW -:- Testing the waters talking with premies -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:31:54 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You're flailing. How embarrassing for you -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:34:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ MW -:- You're flailing. How embarrassing for you -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:56:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Honestly, Saint Jim, why bother? -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:44:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- it's the same MugWump, Pat, and Jim is happy as a -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:47:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- MugWumps sit on barstools sipping horrible -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:55:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Burroughs, you say? -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:27:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Burroughs, you say? I'll bookmark that link -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:49:15 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Testing the waters talking with premies -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:22:35 (GMT)

gerry -:- this lady doesn't even know what country she's in -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:39:01 (GMT)
__ cq -:- in the land of the blind, as the saying goes ... -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:34:36 (GMT)
__ Ji m -:- Poor, poor Yanna -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:21:02 (GMT)

Bob -:- Gurdjieff and Ouspensky -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 12:58:17 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Skeptic's Dictionary entry on Gurdjieff -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:09:49 (GMT)
__ Beware -:- Gurdjieff and Ouspensky -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:32:19 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- There is a cult -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:21:59 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Yes, there is more than one cult in their names! -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:54:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Appreciate your views -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- PS -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:34:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Stonor this is WILD! -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:10:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- And then some! -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 11:53:58 (GMT)
__ Stonor -:- Gurdjieff and Ouspensky -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:05:35 (GMT)
__ __ Mili -:- You're in a CULT, anna -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Which one is that? (just curious ;) -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:55:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mili -:- The GURDJIEFF cult -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:33:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Oh my Whatever-It-Is!! That means you are too!!!! -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 12:02:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- shut up dumbo! nt -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:53:50 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Also, Bob -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:56:30 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- What Gurdjieff doesn't claim too loud -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 13:03:03 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- What you haven't read ... -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 13:58:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- OK, I'm not a specialist -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:16:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- They are not easy reading ... -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:47:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Not easy because it's gibberish -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:46:35 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- What Gurdjieff doesn't claim too loud -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 13:21:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Gurdjieff is empty of real meaning -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:24:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- This guy is catching attention though. -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:11:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Ouspensky got it from Gurdjieff. -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:44:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Often wondered if Rawat studied Gurdjieff -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:02:57 (GMT)

Bryn -:- Wherever I look your face is before me. -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 11:33:51 (GMT)
__ Mr. Williams -:- Wherever I look your face is before me. -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:21:51 (GMT)
__ __ Bryn -:- Oh Mr W. Why you still sleep? -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 11:29:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Beautifully spoken, Bryn. Don't know how you have -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:18:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bryn -:- Your response had a certain poetry Pat.nt -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:10:44 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- Censoring Premies -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:41:55 (GMT)
__ michael donner -:- Wherever I look your face is before me. -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 17:38:17 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- + never sit with your feet pointing toward rugu(nt -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:04:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- + don't lick the envelopes addressed to rugu (nt -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:07:02 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- **Hurrah for BD** (NT) -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:47:32 (GMT)
__ __ Moley (aka Moldy) -:- Loafie...OT -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:44:56 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Great Post, Bryn -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:14:57 (GMT)
__ __ Moley -:- Brilliant post Bryn -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:45:38 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- Wherever I look your face is before me. -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 12:42:44 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Great post, Bryn. The only time I now feel anger -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:56:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Drunken dad? Say more Pat... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:11:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Great post, Bryn. The only time I now feel anger -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:42:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Go fuck yourself you anonymous moron -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 07:11:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Uhh, Pat... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 22:15:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Subtext's on Ag, Katie......................... NT -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:36:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- And my best to you! n/t -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:21:30 (GMT)

Mark -:- Are there ex prem get togethers? -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 11:06:04 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- There certainly are! -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 11:26:10 (GMT)
__ __ Mark -:- Thanks for the info -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:57:07 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Where is that quote from m in Fiji 2000 -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 07:37:34 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- M: ''No one has ever saved himself...'' -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:15:46 (GMT)
__ __ Chuck Sprague -:- I think Way may have posted the quote once... -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:39:18 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- PatC ? Was it in one of your posts ? (nt) -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:17:59 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Rev Rawat: ''Belief is Relief.'' Fiji, 2000 -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:39:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- PatC? I think I've got it here -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 10:35:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I've read it in one of your recent posts. -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:15:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Sorry, J-M. I got rid of all my guru crap -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:03:56 (GMT)

bill -:- JM's report on EV ad in French paper. -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 05:13:44 (GMT)
__ G -:- independent means? -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:29:02 (GMT)
__ bill -:- JM's report on EV ad in French paper.-cpnt.... -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 05:18:08 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Vital Dash for your life! -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:30:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- breathe in,breathe out:his haircutter's joke...(nt -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:58:12 (GMT)

Salam -:- I think Pia is bullshiting -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 05:07:37 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Promise me you'll never use Spellcheck, Salam -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:41:31 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Wad u tlkig boot? -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:54:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Don't nag. I'll look at it .NT -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:06:00 (GMT)

mOLDY wARP -:- Ok guys - this is who I am -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 00:52:47 (GMT)
__ magiclara -:- Ok guys - this is who I am -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 17:40:27 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- That wasn't Richard. That was Richard2 -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:46:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ magiclara(clarence) -:- Sorry I meant Richard2 -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:24:10 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Oh Moley, you are so holy! -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:27:05 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Well Clarence/Clara you are not the first TV on FV -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:08:52 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Wasn't Moldy Warp the mole in Squirrel Nutkin?nt -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 10:00:50 (GMT)
__ __ michael donner -:- Wasn't Moldy Warp the mole in Squirrel Nutkin?nt -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 17:48:55 (GMT)
__ __ Moley -:- Bryn - no, but close! nt -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:49:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bryn -:- It was Little Grey Rabbit! -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:47:21 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- Welcome out into the sunshine... -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:11:27 (GMT)
__ __ Moley -:- Thanks Chuck - freeing it is - -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:57:26 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Moley (warp) -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 03:49:55 (GMT)
__ __ Moley -:- Thanks Bill... god send... yes if there was -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:08:11 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- But I knew all that already. I thought you were a -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 03:38:02 (GMT)
__ __ Moley -:- Pat - hey stop blowing my cover! -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:14:07 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Ok guys - this is who I am -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 02:22:59 (GMT)
__ __ Moley -:- Thanks Mercedes - don't get me on to 'the mind' -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:18:24 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- Ok guys - this is who I am -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 02:02:19 (GMT)
__ __ Moley -:- Thanks Bob, and ditto yours nt -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:20:13 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Holy Moley! -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 04:05:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moley -:- Holy Moley! - well that I'm not Richard! -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:25:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Holy Moley! Hallelujah and Amen, Richard! -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:44:33 (GMT)

G -:- 'fudiciary responsibility' -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 23:22:44 (GMT)
__ Carlos -:- 'fudiciary responsibility' -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:20:19 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- 'fiduciary responsibility' -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:01:08 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- That's actually *so typical* -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:26:14 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- WHOA G -- THANKS FOR THAT -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 02:40:07 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- 'fudiciary responsibility' -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 02:11:15 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- 'they are in on it' -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:44:37 (GMT)

Will -:- Small addition to forum guidelines -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 21:38:12 (GMT)
__ Richard II -:- Correction -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:26:47 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- On one side is an experience ... -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:56:06 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- Small addition to forum guidelines -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 21:43:06 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- log overdew -- a rainforest misty morning [bleep] -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:41:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- **BEST OF FORUM*** ABSOLUTELY -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:23:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- I finally grokked you, Such: Tristram Shandy -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:16:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ TJ [via such] -:- heaven smitten/possibility to trial on another pt. -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:55:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- How sweet, swami, to link my name with Cosway -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:02:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- This is bleeping funny -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:19:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- Yeah,every time I bleep up,it bleeps the bleep! -:- Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 07:36:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Dang, I've got gnaw ledge -:- Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 05:57:10 (GMT)

Marolyn Kyntyre -:- I'm an ex-premie according to Salam, my new God -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:35:15 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Dear Ms Kyntyre -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:51:07 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Pat the neon light -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:29:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- The answer has always been 42, Salam -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:20:35 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Comments, Please -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 16:19:18 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Comments, Please -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:05:35 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Nuts -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:23:50 (GMT)
__ Sonny G -:- For heaven's sake man! -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 17:24:39 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- No it doesn't -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 17:39:17 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Hi Sonny -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 17:36:41 (GMT)

Salam -:- Do premies 'sponsor' people who want to receive K? -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 16:02:11 (GMT)
__ MK -:- Don't need to, it's free -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:47:12 (GMT)
__ __ Salm -:- Don't need to, it's free -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 04:47:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Oh, and -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 04:57:40 (GMT)

Francesca -:- Where is this Lifes Great forum -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 15:52:15 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- A pat on the head for CD... -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 16:28:27 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- A pat on the head for CD...oh yes -:- Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 03:44:32 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- Once Again, Look above -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 16:07:51 (GMT)
__ salam -:- here ye go -:- Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 16:03:47 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:18:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Thank you, Charles Glasser
Message:
Mr Glasser is not all bad. He was the founder of the Blue Ribbon Campaign against the right wing christian fundamentalist inspired Online Communications Decency Act (which seeks to impose censorship on the net.)

He also used material (Journeys and posts) from this site on his site thereby again proving that copyright is unenforceable on the net. I could take this entire site and copy it and transpose it to another server. I could set up another forum just as easily if I get banned from here.

Ownership of anything on the net is a fallacy. Once you put something out here expect it to be copied, misused and disseminated everywhere. This cyber anarchy can be twisted into something nasty or it can be used to blow the lies and bullshit of every phony poseur in the world.

This past weekend's brouhaha re Mr Glasser here has shown me what nonsense it is to try to control peoples' opinions. What delusion to think that anyone owns anything on the net.

The good that will come of this is that some people will be relieved of the false notion that they own or control anything on the net. The bad is that Bazza was insulted and driven away and is now so confused he is having goddam darshan fucking dreams. Hey Baz, come back I miss you.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 22:43:56 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Sheesh, Pat, I apologized for swearing!
Message:
How come the rest of you guys get away with it, and I don't? It really isn't fair.

Honest to god, you should hear how much profanity I use in real life - especially when I'm stressed. I tend to be more polite in writing, but not always. Some of the incidents on this forum have pushed me to the edge of polite written behavior - I know everyone here doesn't 'get it', but I think the people that I swear at DO.

I will apologize again if you think it would do any good - but I don't think it would.

Katie
who is about to check into the rest home to occupy the bed next to Barney so she can commune with the ghost of Jerry Garcia.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:07:54 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Isn't it fun, Katie?
Message:
I hope nobody else takes all the arguments too seriously and starts having darshan dreams. To me the fact that premies can see that we are not some monolithic ''synchronized'' organization wihtout any dissent in its ranks speaks volumes.

You can cuss all you like and you can even use me as a punching bag. Give me passion and intellectual disagreements anyday over the pap they talk to each other over on LG.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:11:51 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Well, not really
Message:
Sheesh, Pat, I am trying to cut down on my swearing in real life (it really becomes natural when most of your family works in the trades!). The only problem is that when I get REALLY angry I cry and swear at the same time - not very effective!

Hey, please read my post about letting Brian out of the box below. I think it's important.

TC,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:34:22 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: My potty mouth gets me in trouble all the time
Message:
And keep me away from kids! That's when I really notice how much spicy swear words pepper my expression. Sometimes I can't tell the difference between expression and expletive.

wink wink love, f

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:38:57 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yes, thank god I don't have kids
Message:
(except for my step-children, who are all over 21, and who can handle obscenity!). Actually, I sometimes swear in front of my younger nephews and niece - but believe me, they've heard it all before (and I'm their slightly hip, unconventional, aunt - good excuse!)
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:02:37 (GMT)
From: Jerry Garcia
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Sheesh, Katie, I was communicating all the time!
Message:
Pick up your china doll
Pick up your china doll
It's only fractured
Just a little nervous from the fall

Keep on Truckin:-)

BTW that fat bastard was wrong about heaven (and just about everything else)

JG

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:31:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: who gave some pretty hip advice to law students...
Message:
the guy might be a pain in the ass to some, but to others ...

click here for good advice to law students.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:35:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Such as: '12. Not Losing your Mind...Possible?'
Message:
Answer according to Mr Glasser; ''Avoid head games.''

Sound advice if by head games he means lies.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:31:27 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: bullcrap
Message:
The only reason that Charles The Unmentionable is able to do that is because there is no copy right notice on the site. He has been informed that he has no right to copy 'Sofi's' Journey verbinetine, which he persest in doing. Sofi has the right to take legel action against him for unauthorized use of intelectual property. Which tell you what a shit bang lawyer he is. Any way, where is Sofi?
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 22:46:35 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam, ELK is copyrighted!
Message:
That has not prevented anyone here from reposting people's ELK 'expressions' and commenting on them or ridiculing them.

Maybe Charles felt that turnabout was fair play - I don't know - but the upset about a premie reprinting ex-premie 'expressions' on his own site seems quite hypocritical to me.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 09:18:08 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Hypocrites?
Message:
Hypocrisy is a very strong charge. I assume you do not make it lightly.

Yes, there is a doctrine of 'fair use' and by my lights the use of ELK droppings is 'fair use'.

Also by my lights, Charles Glasser's appropriation of my posting is not at all fair use. In fact, I explained it in a later post, putting it explicitly in context. It was no threat, just a short hand way of making the point that Mili (as a documented forger) has no credibility until he 'fesses up.

Glasser has omitted that later post making clear no threat was intended. No 'fair use' there, then.

No-one has said that premies have no right to complain about abuses of fair use. It would be hypocritical to do that, while reserving to oneself the right to complain about unauthorised uses of one's own material.

If you are not saying that is what has happened, than you can be re-assured that it is not hypocritical to defend against Glasser's unauthorised and unfair misuse of peoples' postings here.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 15:45:23 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Probably the wrong word
Message:
What I meant to say is that I don't hear people here complaining about expressions from ELK or quotes from Pia's and Charles' sites getting re-posted here, but everyone seems to be up in arms about posts from this forum getting re-posted in a premie site. I am not saying you shouldn't be upset about it - just that what Charles has done is no different than what is done here on this forum (including taking things out of context).

I wrote a longer post to you below, which I hope you read. Again, if you feel strongly that your post was used out of context, perhaps you could try and contact Charles and explain to him why you believe he should not use it as an example. I do not believe you have any legal recourse here - but trying to talk to the man as a fellow human being might help.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:01:55 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam -- he didn't copy it
Message:
I'll preface by saying this is just my opinion but I do study this stuff a little bit.

I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that all Charles did was link to the journey -- he didn't copy it. (Now there are some linking cases out there, but that is a real uncharted area of law, and it would be very expensive indeed to take someone to court over a mere link, unless there's been some real harm done.)

Also, I don't believe the Journeys are copyrighted, unless the author asserts a copyright, and even then they'd have to fight for it (more dollars wasted). Even then, as a former journalist, Mr. Glasser probably has the fair use stuff down cold. There's a certain amount of copying of parts of other people's works that come under the fair use doctrine, especially if you credit the author and don't plagarize (claim it as your own, or put it into a work you claim as your own).

And people's opinions stated on an open forum -- even a moderated one, I believe you can kiss those goodbye, especially when all he did was link to them and left everyone's names intact.

But I do agree that some things on the 'net ARE owned. You just usually need a big company with big city lawyers to go to court and fight over it. That's why some of the OLGA sites were shut down (that contained song lyrics and guitar chords), and Napster is a mere shell of itself (or soon will be).

I don't think you could, for example, take someone's whole website and put it up yourself and claim it was yours, or take the entire contents against the owner's wishes. BUT intellectual property lawyers do not come cheap.

But Charles is misleading the public with his gross misstatements (and journalists generally know how far to go with that and not be sued), and he is whining about the 'hate club.' Of course, one of his big things was studying libel laws, so he knows full well that he can say his piece and we can say ours, and there's damned littled you can do about it, for the most part. He's done enough whining on his website. I personally don't want to spend too much time whining about him. He'd probably really like that. Then he knows he's been effective.
bests,
Francesca

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:31:07 (GMT)
From: Redhawk
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Salam -- he didn't copy it
Message:
Francesca,

I see your point. I also think that any new ex'es visiting here should have it 'clearly' explained to them that whatever they write in their journey may be used by premies.

Now, let's see. Who is that person that always announces:

'Hark, New Journey On-Line'

RH

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:35:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Redhawk
Subject: Good point
Message:
The webmaster, I believe, announces the new Journeys are online. If you feel strongly enough about it, it might not hurt to suggest to him -- by e-mail of course, he can't be expected to troll the forum for suggestions -- that something explanatory be put on the page where people submit their Journeys.

And welcome, if you're new here. If you're not, sorry I haven't acknowledged your presence!

--f

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:59:36 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I don't think so.
Message:
I haven't look into his code to see if he has linked to the page or not. But a quick guess tells me he has not, as the images on the page are not being displayed. Even if he had linked to the page, it is illegal to open another web site page inside your own page. There was a big legel case a while back [can't remember the details] where a news caster opened major website inside a frame, the company was sued and was foreced to redo their site such that any page will open inside a new window and dsplaying the url of the web site in the address box stating very clearly who the site belongs to.

As far to copying ELK, most of the post have been and should be used in such a way as to comply with the fare use act. Which is simply saying you can use other people work with condition that the use is educational or if it is used into an explanation. what Charlie did is nothin more than cut and paste an entire text without addint his comments within the text. A total disregard to the 'LAW'. A lot of ELK posts have been dissimated and I really think that posters on this forum need to be aware that it is not correct to copy what the read and throw it here.

If you look at it-is-so comments on Pia, you will notice that I did copy the entire text, however i broke it down into small pieces with my own comments. That is the way to do it. If Mr Charles have used my own journey, he can rest assured that his ass is mine no matter how many degrees he has. It is obvious that he belives that no one can move one him, casue he is such a dumb ass lawyer which has entered into a fry. I know lawyers that do nothing more but deal with copyright issues on the net and I certainly advice Mr charles to reconsider his position of either removing the Journey, contacting Brian to get some sort of acceptance to use it or getting his lazy lawyer ass to add comments within the text.

And while am at it, Mr charles can sue fuck all. He has no case to sue anyone including this forum. If he is going to sue which is a million life times to come, he has to sue every single poster on this forum individually. Fat chance he has of doing that. And when was that mentioning someone's name a crime. How many Charles there are in the world.

So there you Mr Charles. Go and think your hate strategy agin, squeeze your eyeballs up your ass and know, that there are people that are not gonna sit down and take it on the chin without fighting back.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 11:16:21 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: A technological fix
Message:
Here's an interesting slashdot discussion on how to prevent such unwanted linking using technological means.

http://slashdot.org/yro/01/03/24/1534257.shtml

I do hope this is of interest to the site maintainers.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:48:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: On point, John, and Salam a correction to my post
Message:
... below.

I think that where they get in trouble in those linking cases is where a pop up window comes up, with a link to someone else's content, the back and forward buttons are 'greyed out' and you can't get the URL that is the source of the content they've linked to is gibberish.

And as I said below, if you are a big business, with something to lose of monetary value, such as copyrighted content, dilution of a trademark, etc. etc., there'd be something to fight for.

However, it is a dirty web trick, but I'm not even sure that Charles G did it purposely (although he may have). He pops up EPO content in a pop up window, and the URL stays to his site. As you said, and as the article John T posted indicates, pure links, under most circumstances are legal. Some web development programs make those shitty links, and he may not know what he's doing. (For instance, if you bookmark his site, it says 'first' instead of the name of his page.)

If our webmaster and Charles were on better terms and Charles hadn't started his website in retaliation for who knows what, our webmaster could contact him and say, 'hey, I don't mind that you link to our site, what I do mind is that you don't have a pure link, that shows our URL.' I do believe that EPO is copyrighted, even if it isn't registered. Just about anything put down in fixed form in a tangible medium since March 1, 1989, is copyrighted. Someone can't take a case to court without going and registering, but it is copyrighted, nonetheless.

But in a squishy area of law, it's more a negotating thing, and I don't think Charles is in the negotiating mood. But I may suggest this to our webmaster, by e-mail.

cheers, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 16:53:04 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Hey F - not links
Message:
They aren't links - because then the whole page would show up (including JohnT's later clarification of his post). They are copied pages - portions of them.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:03:36 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: You're right
Message:
Very interesting. If we are on negotiating terms with Charles, if the webmaster chooses to do so, he could ask him to link to our pages.

If Charles wants to take the stuff out of context to make it look more inflammatory than it is, and refuses to link, there's your answer right there. I mean, reactions to Mili. Come on! So he finally makes someone lose their temper and Charles chooses that!

We do quote the folks from ELK but like Salam said, there's always great commentary (usually by Jim or Joe or Such or Chuck), and credits are given, and on this site, we do it on the Forum, not on our MAIN EPO web pages.

bests, f

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:01:45 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: They're aint linked
Message:
It cut and past. Highway robbery. not only did he cut and paste, but he scrambled the text to make it hard to read. And if you look into the code, you will notice that Charles the dickhead has left the links inside the code and modified them by removing and reference to ex-premies.org. He wants to cover his ass, but his ass is hanging right up for everyone to see.

Not only he has used Sofi's journey without case, but now it appears that he has committed another theft, but blatently stealling someone's else work and livelyhood.

Well Brian, you got a case now. Tell him to remove the Journey, say sorry, ask formally to use it or I will put his website on every bulliten board on the planet. I will write to every friggin law firm I can put my hand on and tell them what a sucker they are dealing with, and I don't give a fuck if he sends me a million letters of defamation. His ass is mine.
Got it Charlie. Remove the bloody journey you dork. what is it worth to you?


THIS is the code from Charlies page it was written by Brian, with the server name clearly shown.

Now your honour, we like to show you exibit A:


IMG SRC='http://fr0./)d1(/srv1?a=/http://www.[ex-premie.org removed]/pix/line.gif'
A HREF='http://fr0./)d1(neys.htm
P ALIGN='CENTER'
IMG SRC='http://fr0./d1/srv1?http://www./pix/line.gif' WIDTH='570' HEIGHT='4' ALIGN='BOTTOM' BORDER='
MAP Name='logoline'
AREA Shape='Rect' coords = '528,26,558,40' HREF='http://fr0./)d1
http://www./pages/faq.htm'
AREA Shape='Rect' coords = '428,26,512,40' HREF='http://fr0./)d1/http://www./pages/breaking.htm'
AREA Shape='Rect' coords = '362,26,416,40' HREF='mailto:webmaster@'
AREA Shape='Rect' coords = '299,26,350,40'
HREF='http://fr0./d1
/http://www./pages/sitemap.htm'
AREA Shape='Rect' coords = '243,26,288,40' HREF='http://fr0./)d1

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:31:38 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I don't think so.
Message:
Salam,

You said:

I haven't look into his code to see if he has linked to the page or not. But a quick guess tells me he has not, as the images on the page are not being displayed. Even if he had linked to the page, it is illegal to open another web site page inside your own page. There was a big legel case a while back [can't remember the details] where a news caster opened major website inside a frame, the company was sued and was foreced to redo their site such that any page will open inside a new window and dsplaying the url of the web site in the address box stating very clearly who the site belongs to.

You said the key words: MAJOR WEBSITE. Much of what goes on in IP law is that the 800 pound gorilla has the money to hire IP lawyers and take people to the mats to protect their image, branding, content, whatever. I used to work for an IP law firm in the early 80s and Wells Fargo was one of the clients. Believe me -- no one could put a stagecoach on anything. They'd find some little restaurant up in the country with a stagecoach on the sign, send cease and desist letters and be ready to take them to court. But, we aren't a major website, and no one that I know has that kind of money. A major website can prove damages that are worth money, because of the monetary value of their business, and the value of their image and 'branding.' And there are plenty of websites that open up other websites within a frame. It's not illegal per se -- someone lost a case where that was one of the facts that helped them lose it. (However, it is a MAJOR pet peeve of mine. I told our webmaster the other day that webmasters should be strangled who do that sort of thing.)

As far to copying ELK, most of the post have been and should be used in such a way as to comply with the fare use act. Which is simply saying you can use other people work with condition that the use is educational or if it is used into an explanation. what Charlie did is nothin more than cut and paste an entire text without addint his comments within the text. A total disregard to the 'LAW'. A lot of ELK posts have been dissimated and I really think that posters on this forum need to be aware that it is not correct to copy what the read and throw it here.

Charles' comments were right next to the links that then lead to the content.

Anyway, I don't want to argue with you, but nobody's ass is nobody's unless you have major bucks and a lawyer.

But I love to hear you rant!

bests, f

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:42:29 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Intellectual property - Bill Gates needs you
Message:
Right now he is campaigning against Linux and other open source software because he knows ''intellectual property'' is an unenforceable anachronism in the age of the internet.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:07:44 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: fuck bill Gates
Message:
No one is stealing his property. He doesn't want to stop Linux, he is campaigning against Open Source. The nasty people that write better programs than the shit that MS keeps dishing out and give them away. Of course he is worried that his company will not be able to produce so many millioneir in their thirties any more, bad for business. When are they gonna split the woroon up?
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:08:39 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: we need copyright
Message:
Plagiarism has never been approved of, certainly not by Thomas Jefferson. And his notions about the freedom of ideas are unimpeachable.

Mr Gate's shenanigans are not so much to do with copyright, you see. In fact, the Free Software Foundation relies on copyright in order to be able to distribute its work without things being stolen by the likes of Mr Gates.

A most interesting subject, but the central point is surely: individual works or expressions may be intellectual property; whereas ideas (and it is important to understand that a computer program is the expression of an idea) may not.

An idea, once released, is public property, as free as the air. Ideas have a life of their own, and thrive best when openly shared.

But, who I share my expressions with is up to me, and I may control how they are used. It is for that reason that I place a copyright notice (originated by Richard Stallman of the Free Software Foundation) on my Unholy Trinity poems to permit their free distribution, but to prevent their being twisted into something false.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 22:49:02 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: John, please read my post to Salam, above
Message:
I would feel a lot more strongly about this issue if people here hadn't been taking material from ELK and Pia's site and criticizing it on the forum. I really do not see how this is so different.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 02:50:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie
Message:
Hi Katie,

You sound much better. Hope you're feeling good.

I never have expected anything I write on F5 to be proprietary to me. Ever. Even my first journey which I had removed to revise it. Rather, I was under the impression that this website owns whatever I write. That's why I feel so free to post my name and location. I am finally fearless of rawat. What's he gonna do? Sue ME? I'll just countersue for all the hours I worked for free a DECA, testify how he had a premie photocopy and smuggle out of Boeing, in Seattle B707 documents and specs by the volume. I'll talk about how such documents were illegally obtained, shipped, and received by DECA or IMMCO. I know the goob knew about it. He asked for them. SO there, asshole whatsyourname rawat!

Since the first time I ever posted here I posted with my real name and have never diverted from that. I think that is why the goob has such a lengthy, and boring waiver to enter his site. He's the one who's afraid! Good, he should be the creep.

I copy stuff from the EV newletters to here on occasion and I believe I have every right to do it. Is it legal? I don't know. I know one thing: I take personal responsibility for everything I write and post. Again, I don't have much fear of lawyers. I have known so many, even the DLM lawyers. Let them sue me! I remember 'participating' in a divorce mill with a DLM lawyer right out of DLM Headquarters in Miamia Beach part-time after I got canned from DECA for having a physical breakdown. The divorces were so premies could move into the ashram and live in the former Broadripple whorehouse that stank of urine and was infested with bugs. (They still couldn't just let me rest!)

That's why I respect and understand your reaction to the events on (what the fuck day was it)? I, too, am childfree, as you know, and love being an aunt. When my Mae West uncensored persona comes to call, I have to really watch it around the little ones. I digress. I'm a bit packing/moving silly right now.

My point is this: I am not afraid, but then, my name's not in anyway affiliated with this site as an owner. So I do understand what you must have been feeling and thinking.

Just wanted to put in my two cents. I do appreciate all you and Brian do here. Swear all you want, Katie. This is the place to do it.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 15:36:14 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: To Katie
Message:
Hi Cynthia -
First, thanks for understanding! I do feel better - got to spend a 'relaxing' day at my real job yesterday (snicker) - where I didn't have time to think about this stuff.

Re re-posting from ELK or EV - my understanding is that it is OK to repost portions of material (even copyrighted material) with comments if you give the author proper attribution. So I don't think there is any illegality involved in posting EV newsletters or ELK expressions on this forum. The point I was trying to make is that the same thing applies to posts made HERE - even if we don't like it.

Also, anything posted on F5 is NOT proprietary to the writer - it's in the forum guidelines (you probably already know this - just making this point for people who don't.) Brian has allowed people's journey entries to be proprietary to the authors - they can remove them if they want to. I don't think he HAS to do this, but he does.

Re my reactions to the events of this past weekend - I wasn't afraid, but I was angry (obviously) that someone had been harassed at work as a result of information printed on this site by another person who had access to priviledged information. I feel very strongly that ends do NOT justify means, and I don't think anyone had a 'right' to do that no matter WHAT Charles said on his site.

I know I'm going on and on when all you meant to do was express understanding - guess I'm in rhetorical mode right now as a result of being on a public forum! I really just wanted to thank you for your understanding and appreciation.

Good luck with the move. Wish I could help you pack - I am good at it because of all the experience I've had (I think I've moved over 50 times in my life.)

Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:44:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: To Cynthia
Message:
Cynthia:

I don't know all the ins and outs of it, but I suspect that there's no copyright violation for saying that something came from EV, and posting it along with the writer's name and information they had on the site (i.e. giving credit to the author and the publication). People are allowed to quote other people's copyrighted material. They just can't post it in its virtual entirely, or claim it is their own.

Happy moving (I don't envy you, but it sounds like a good move).

love, Francesca

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:35:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I don't think it is either -- I agree n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:05:52 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: on the contrary
Message:
I read an Internet law bulletin most days, or at least skim it. It's an uncharted area of law, and slippery as an eel, but there are cases coming down, internationally, each and every day. Also governments dealing with a lot of issues and making laws.

The Internet is not very free in China, for example.

But it is true that some of it got let out of the bag early on by the 'net being free. And I hope they keep it that way!

love, f

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:54:55 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: damn broadcasts
Message:
I am curious why the people at the events can't see that rawat is making fun of other people, and indirectly, of them. During yesterday's broadcast, (gag), he was poking fun at the people who were on whatever late night talk show it was where the audience went 'whoo, whoo, whoo' all the time. He went on with it for some time. Towards the end of his talk or event or whatever, he started making statements and each statement brought applause and cheers, as if on cue. That sort of blind reaction is exactly what he had been mocking just a few minutes earlier. After the broadcast, my husband was so happy as apparently he had 'needed to hear Maharaji's voice.' I may have to stop watching the things. It gets harder to hold my tongue when I see so much idiocy and crap. I really don't care about rawat and his broadcasts, but my marriage is something I care deeply about. If I can't get him out of it, I at least need to get him in a place and at a level I can tolerate. Thank you all for being there to vent this on and to learn from.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:50:58 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: When God Takes The Piss .....
Message:
....everyone laughs , because everyone at one time or another has taken the piss out of something or other , that's comedy : so Rawat's audience DO see that he's mocking whatever it is , that's part of the entertainment , to be in the presence of the superior power whilst he is knocking the 'world ' , 'mind', 'maya' whatever he calls it now.

If one feels oneself to be part of the butt then that's ok , he's just showing me what a sorry deluded fool I am & how great HE is to have sussed it out.

I can't emphasise this enough : although there are scumbags in any group premies generally aren't , & can be entirely rational about everything except Rawat , because he is , in some mysterious way beyond the power of the human mind to comprehend , GOD .

Sounds to me like your poor old hubby has got it bad , I can only suggest that you subtly encourage his curiosity to find out about the real man & otherwise try & ignore it all .

ps. I'm sure you're aware that electronic newtek hates strong magnets .

All the best:Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:58:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: damn broadcasts - vent a bit more, Timmi
Message:
It's music to my ears. You really are a treat to have here. Yes, Rawat really is not a kind and loving man. He is judgmental, arrogant and hyper-critical of everyone except himself. He has been making snide comments about people for 30 years and that criticism is all coming back to him now.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:13:34 (GMT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: PatC and Bin Liner
Subject: damn broadcasts - vent a bit more, Timmi
Message:
Thanks, Pat and Bin. It's so odd to watch from the outside. My husband is incredibly bright and logical and balanced---except when it come to rawat and his so-called knowledge. It amazes me at times. It's like an addiction or something. And the need to 'hear maharaji's voice'. What is that all about? Does rawat do something during knowledge sessions and events that addicts people to him? A drug or hypnosis thing? I'm absolutely serious about that question. I thought the several times a day of 'maharaji says.............' was going to drive me 'round the bend a few months ago. It's not so bad now; it's a lot less frequent than it was. I just smile vaguely, tolerantly, and if at all possible mention the others who have said the same thing, because there are always several dozen sources for anything worthwhile I have ever heard him say. Vent a bit more? Oh, Pat, I could go on all night! Some days, it is merely a nuisance. Others, it is really bad. I am hoping to eventually, gently steer my husband towards at least wondering why he is so 'hooked'. And get him to look a bit more clearly at the person he is apparently dedicated to in a very strange way. Again, thank you. You have no idea how much this helps me get through the days!
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 07:31:20 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: There is also the Indian background...
Message:
...which is discussed extensivly on this site. A lot of background information on where this all started from, what it evolved into in India, it's Rhadasoami roots, and how it changed when the Rawats got hold of it, and in particular how M has changed it since bringing it to the west.

Talking about the Indian background may be a more neutral, non-threatening way of looking at the whole thing for your husband, rather than criticizing M directly. If he doesn't know a lot about the background, he may find it interesting. Then again, the Indian background doesn't interest everyone. You are closest to your husband, so I suppose you would be the best judge of that.

People who recieved K in the 1970's often had a very strong emotional experience and bonding with M, and that really is what has held them for so long, that original, powerful emotional experience. Over the years, M has encoraged them not to question him, and they don't.

I found the writtings of Faqir Chand helpful in understanding how some Indian gurus decieve people, and why they retain followers. Faqir Chand has been called the most honest of Gurus, because he admits that many gurus claim to be god-like and abuse their power to obtain wealth. Some good insights into guruism and Indian culture.

I would say learn what you can; an answer for your particular situation may reveal itself.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 04:28:03 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: He's hooked on ''the feeling''
Message:
of love for the master combined with the meditation which makes you feel nice plus all of Rawat's superstitious nonsense like ''You cannot save yourself. Only the master can save you.''

The guru has mixed some very primitive ideas up with simple yoga and it is dangerous and weakens people and your hubby will need to realizes that all the good feelings are already in him and he doesn't need a thrid party to make him feel great. But he thinks it's more than feeling great. He thinks that hiis souls is being saved. It is a very heavy religion.

Ask him about the hit and run incident but first read about it or ask him about Rawat's ignoring the child-molester Jagdeo. He needs to see that Rawat is an ordinary businessman from India not the Master who saves you.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:13:03 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: What's With The Obsession With Charles Glasser?
Message:
First it was obsession with Guru Maharaji (a.k.a. whatever the fuck you can dream of). Then it was Michael Dettmers. Then Jean Marie Pantyhose. Now Charles Glasser? This is like textbook stock market mania. Beware of obsession - something bad always happens when you're obsessed with something.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:02:03 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Just Checked Out Charles' Fantastic Site Again
Message:
I looked at it a bit more closely this time. You know, it's somewhat embarrasing to admit that I was part of this cult for 20 years - after 30 years in the high technology western world, this Indian fatso has left only idiots and morons in his wake. Better to get out late than never.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:08:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Testing the waters talking with premies
Message:
I recently asked the premies on Lifes Great [sic] if they noticed how skittish they were about rationality. Some responded to the effect that, in fact they were. They might quibble with that conclusion but it's a fair one. Trust me.

Then, yesterday, a premie named 'bruno' said that he was entirely game for a rational 'chess-like' discussion about Maharaji. Fine, looks like fun. So I showed him three things. First, quotes from Shri Hans where he not only says that the guru is God in human form but goes so far as to say that anyone who CAN'T see that is 'blind'. Second, the quote of Maharaji's from Nottingham where he categorically denied being God. Finally, a quote of Maharaji's from Geneva the other day in which he was falling all over himself to praise his father as wise beyond description. How, I asked, could bruno possibly reconcile this mess?

The first premie to reply, one 'SC', opined that Maharaji really is God but people like me can't handle the truth. In essence, he's a liar.

Then bruno replied, suggesting that, like his father who used to tell him about fairies and goblins when he was a lad (and especially after dad had been drinking), Shri Hans was just pulling the kid's leg. In essence, he's a liar.

Fun, huh?

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:31:54 (GMT)
From: MW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Testing the waters talking with premies
Message:
Hey: Jim 'Madalyn Murray O'Hair' Heller again, taking great pleasure in the arcane world of mildly abusing premies---
Ooooooh, let's plumb the depths of 30 years of quotes for inconsistencies; let's spend hours every day insulting, judging, and blaming other humans for our pain; let's come up with a plan; let's take this fucker down; let's kick ass and take names; let's lay our apparent psychological problems on the table for everyone to ogle and comment on; let's see our names in print, again and again, in an 'official,''printed just like the big boys' way.
If I write something that somebody heard somebody else say they swore was true, then----it MUST be true!! Capisce?

I'm a naughty boy and must be punished.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:34:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: MW
Subject: You're flailing. How embarrassing for you
Message:
Thank god for anonymity, huh?
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:56:20 (GMT)
From: MW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're flailing. How embarrassing for you
Message:
Jim responded:
Thank god for anonymity, huh?

You betcha. I guess you've eaten people like me for breakfast on a weekly basis, oh great and powerful Oz? I'm just trying to lighten it up; you make jokes all the time, predatory as they may be. Just a little pushing back; you're used to sycophantic reactions, I know. A little spice in the gu-hee, my brother.

OK, musician: who are your top 5 artists/creators of all time?

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:44:28 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Honestly, Saint Jim, why bother?
Message:
You keep trying to save anonymous scorpions and they keep biting ungratefully. He belongs over on Lifes Great with the MW who insulted me there - or is it the same MW?
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:47:12 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: it's the same MugWump, Pat, and Jim is happy as a
Message:
... happy as a sandman?

Shame, really, when he's trying to wake them up.

;)

(ps, thanks for the kind words about my recent post to, er .. whoever it was).

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:55:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: MugWumps sit on barstools sipping horrible
Message:
concoctions with prehensile tongues according to Bill Burroughs. Ain't this fun, Chris. I just love the goddam internet. It's gonna blow the lid off every faker and fakir in the world.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:27:19 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Burroughs, you say?
Message:
excuse this, but ...

http://www.scifinoir.com/gallery/andrew.html

'UNTITLED'

We live in heaven and hell
Hell is AIDS and any other disease
Heaven is health not the sky over the land and seas
Hell is burned out neighborhoods of a city
Heaven is wealth and no self pity
Hell is gunshots, crime, and violence
Heaven is much love, peace, and silence
We live in the afterworld.

Consciousness keeps me alive
It helps me see and understand
Shit that goes on around me and
helps me keep a peace of mind
It shows me the good things
from the bad and sometimes even
bad from the worst, but it
lives through me so when
my consciousness is gone
so am I.

God is one being that lives
in all of us. He did not
create us we evolved from
a lower earthly life.
God is made of many different
parts mainly evil and good.
These two parts live in all
but in somebeings one side
outweighs the other.
If we all understood this
there would be a great peace
of mind but some are too
ignorant to even look for the
true answer.

http://www.godtheband.com/HTML/essay/nakedlunch.html

http://voidspace.hypermart.net/Other/burroughs.html

There's not much in this world left to horrify William Burroughs, but being
told at the same meal that he, Cronenberg, and Jerry Lewis have each been
elected members of the French order of Arts and Letter is nearly enough to
send him on another heroin jag.

``Here's my conceit,'' says Cronenberg. ``Burroughs and I have been fused
in the same telepod together,'' he says, referring to ~The Fly~, where Jeff
Goldblum and a housefly are fused at the molecular genetic level. ``And
what you've got now is the Brundlething, which is my and his version of
~Naked Lunch~. It's a fusion of the two of us, and it really is something
that neither one of us would have done alone. Now I don't know which of us
is the fly and which is human.''


What's the deal with the Church of the Subgenius?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Straight Dope:

I consider myself pretty hip. I'm fairly in tune with my generation of
fellow twenty-somethings. I know the difference between Beck and
Montovani.
So why is it that, when everytime I run into one of these 'Church of the
SubGenius' sites on the web, I have absolutely no clue as to what the
hell its getting at? What's the deal with these kooks? I can fathom the
put-up of sci-fi doomsday cults, but the overall tenor of weirdness just
boggles me. You've managed to debunk Dungeons and Dragons for us. Now how
about putting these specimens under the microscope? --bergevb@bsk.com

SDSTAFF Euty replies:

If you're just running into this kind of stuff on the web, you haven't been
paying attention. Ever watch 'Pee-Wee's Playhouse?' Take a look at his
bulletin board usually right before he hops on his bicycle at the end of the
show. You'll see a black and white picture of a grinning, pipe smoking man,
That's Bob. Watch 'Rugrats?' Catch the repeated references such as 'as Bob
is my witless' or 'children are a gift from a Bob.' It's much more prevalent
than you may think.

If the church doesn't have a real leader, it at least has a logo, and that
logo is the face of 'Bob.' His full name is J. R. 'Bob' Dobbs; the 'J.R.'
was dropped later because, as the church said, they didn't want to get in
any trouble with Larry Hagman. And it has a mission; the pursuit of 'slack.'
Slack is difficult to define. In a way it's like what Louie Armstrong said
about jazz, if you have to ask what it is, you'll never know. It can be
interpreted in the same way as the term 'slacker,' but to the Subgenius it's
more of a way of getting through life without being brought down by the
'normals.'

The Church is full of doomsday prophecies, endless rants, and shameless
appeals for your money. And it's all pretty much a joke.

The Subgenius foundation was actually begun back in 1979 by a Dallas
filmmaker named Douglas St. Clair Smith, who now goes under the name Ivan
Stang. He, along with Philo Drummond (possibly also a pseudonym) put
together the first pamphlet announcing the Church and then published the
'bible' of SubGeniuses 'The Book of the Subgenius.' Stang had always been
interested in fringe and weirdo groups, a lot of which he lists in his book
'High Weirdness
by Mail.' Although it's unclear as to whether this is what he had in mind at
the time, eventually, the Church began to become a clearinghouse for a lot
of these groups. Thus, the rather unspecific theology of Subgeniuses; that
one must merely be 'abnormal' to be a member.

Philosophically, the church owes it's origin to the Discordian movement of
the late 60's and 70's. The first pamphlet of the Church ('The World ends
tomorrow and You may Die!') reads a lot like the 'bible' of Discordianism,
'The Principia Discordia.' In fact, as Stang wrote in an e-mail to this
author, 'The only difference I've been able to see between Discordians and
SubGeniuses, is that SubGeniuses get laid.'

Sadly, though, there are some who believe that Stang has gone around the
bend and has started really believing his own joke. To be fair, he does
state that he really didn't ever believe that the Church would ever have
gotten as big as it has. He figured on a shelf life of a couple of years and
it would have all been over. But these things do have a way of taking on a
life of their own.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:49:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Burroughs, you say? I'll bookmark that link
Message:
I have to go and do stuff in the real world right now but thanks for the link. I'll read it later.

PatC, who would like to live in the Interzone without heroine.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:22:35 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Testing the waters talking with premies
Message:
Uh, gee bruno, Shri Hans wasn't just talking to his kid when he said those things. He was talking to his devotees.

You've found a whole new playground, Jim!

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:39:01 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: this lady doesn't even know what country she's in
Message:
But her unconscious mind knows...

By yana hoffman, USA/Canada

Taken over, Controlled and Helpless

I want to write something in response to the questioning and criticism of my teacher Maharaji and the experience which I have as a result of practicing the four techniques I learned from him. I want to be one of the people who stands up for him and what I believe in.

Unfortunately, I do not believe there are any words I can express about my personal experience that would impact someone who is afraid that Knowledge is a cult.

CULT is a scary and foreboding word. It conjures up images of being seduced, taken over, controlled and helpless....of losing one's faculties and the ability to know fantasy from reality, truth from lies.... of becoming isolated and shut off from family, friends, and the 'real' world. It means being vulnerable and unable to trust not only another but oneself.

This is scary. The fear that the 'ex-premies' and their criticism evoke is real. That is why it is so potent. It attacks our belief(s) in ourselves and the possibility that human beings are intrinsically good and kind and giving and that we can individually assess when we are being duped and when we are having an authentic experience.

I cannot convince you that your experience is either fantasy or authentic. You need to have the substance within yourself to discern that. And it is understandable to me (I am a psychotherapist and an addiction counselor) that doubting one's ability to discern reality is one of the greatest psychological fears. After all, who wants to be labeled 'crazy' or 'unstable' or 'impressionable' or 'weak?'

Experiencing Knowledge does, in a way, require a leap of faith. And that leap is that I give myself permission to claim my own autonomy and sense of agency. That I credit myself with the ability to trust what I experience, for myself, without needing outside authority or validation or someone to tell me what I should be experiencing.

I hope that anyone reading this who has been swept up in the fear that Maharaji somehow has some ability to have 'power' over them and seduce them into a 'cult' will be able to look within themselves and see that the ability to know themselves and the validity of any experience can only be answered within.

I say this because of all the learning I have had in my 53 years, of all the things I pursued to find happiness, Knowledge is the one thing that has not let me down.

You go girl !!! (Emphasis:yana's 'true self')

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:34:36 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: in the land of the blind, as the saying goes ...
Message:
in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
.
.
.
And Yana Hoffman calls herself '... a psychotherapist and an addiction counselor'

who claims that the ...'fear that ex-premies and their criticism evoke(s) ... attacks the possibility that human beings are intrinsically good and kind and that we can individually assess when we are being duped and when we are having an authentic experience'
.
.
.
Ahem.

Ms Hoffman. You appear to muddying the waters.

If criticism evokes fear for you, (and, by association, us ex-premies also evoke fear in you) then may I suggest that you deal with your own fears, rather than projecting them onto other people, in this case premies, who I hope have enough nouse (i.e. common sense) left to recognise a therapist in search of a needy patient when they see one!

Yana, HOW ON EARTH do you manage to imply that criticism of your so-called 'master' therefore denies that 'human beings are intrinsically good and kind'?

You appear to be putting him on a pedestal that would attempt to negate ANY criticism of him being valid. And yet you deny the cult aspect of him and (quote)'his' knowledge?

You seriously suggest that to criticise Mr Rawat is on a par with denying that intrinsic goodness and kindness and generosity are part of the human condition?

Are you seriously suggesting that to walk away from him is deny the goodness in ourselves???
.
.
.
Jeez, some counsellor you are ................................................................... NOT!)

(cult-apologist is a more apt description).

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:21:02 (GMT)
From: Ji m
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Poor, poor Yanna
Message:
I knew Yanna back in Tornto, back when she was still with Brian Klampf. Lots of kids, earnest, serious, lovesick gopi of a mom. A living sigh is really what she was. Quite intelligent, though, and I'm sure that the truth really is freaking her out. Too bad.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 12:58:17 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Gurdjieff and Ouspensky
Message:
I never saw any posting about these 2 guys, living in the first part of the 19th century. I know there is an organisation which might or might not be a cult.
Some of their books are very remarkable.
The crux of their teachings is 'remembering yourself' which means, while doing what you're doing, staying aware of being an individual, an I, instead of going through your day like a movie, on your instincts. I find it very hard to even keep this up for a few minutes. It is not unlike the old 24 hr holy name technique, but the result feels very different. Not that dopey premie feeling but a very sharp and clear state.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:09:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Skeptic's Dictionary entry on Gurdjieff
Message:
G. I. Gurdjieff (1872?-1949)
George S. Georgiades was a Greco-Armenian charismatic con man who was born in Russia but made a name for himself in Paris as the mystic George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff. In Russia he established what he called 'The Institute for the Harmonious Development of Man' (1919), which he re-established in France in 1922. It was at his Institute that Gurdjieff promoted a litany of preposterous occult and mystical notions about the universe, which he claimed he was taught by wise men while traveling and studying in Central Asia. He put down his 'insights' in books with titles like Meetings with Remarkable men, All and Everything, and Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson: an objectively impartial criticism of the life of man. Gurdjieff's mostly uninteresting or unintelligible musings were presented in more accessible language by his disciple Petyr Demianovich Ouspensky.

To some devotees of Gurdjieff, Ouspensky was an incomplete mystic. Other disciples find Gurdjieff and Ouspensky to be co-gurus.

Their current disciples presumably ignore Gurdjieff's more ridiculous claims, such as the following comment on the moon:

All evil deeds, all crimes, all self-sacrificing actions, all heroic exploits, as well as all the actions of ordinary life, are controlled by the moon.

What makes a guru such as Gurdjieff attractive as a spiritual conquistador is rather his more cynical beliefs, such as the notion that most human beings who are awake act as if they are asleep. Gurdjieff also observed that most people are dead on the inside. I think he meant by these claims that most people are trusting, gullible, easily led, very suggestible, not very reflective or suspicious of their fellow creatures, and need a guru to give their lives vitality and meaning. That is to say, I believe Gurdjieff correctly noted that most people are neither skeptics nor self-motivated, and that many are easily duped by gurus because they want someone to show them the way to live a meaningful life. He offered to show his followers the way to true wakefulness, a state of awareness and vitality which transcends ordinary consciousness. He was able to attract a coterie of writers, artists, wealthy widows and other questing souls to work his farm for him in exchange for sharing his wisdom. He offered numerous claims and explanations for everything under the moon, rooted in little more than his own imagination and never tempered with concern for what science might have to say about his musings.

Gurdjieff obviously had a powerful personality, but his disdain for the mundane and for natural science must have added to his attractiveness. He allegedly exuded extreme self-confidence and exhibited no self-doubt, traits which must have been comforting to many people. His teachings, however, often seem like the delusions of a Gnostic madman, such as Dr. Daniel Paul Schreber, whose Memoirs of a Neuropath were analyzed by Freud. (Available in Three Case Histories)

My favorite Gurdjieff story is told by Fritz Peters. To explain 'the secret of life' to a wealthy English woman who had offered him £1,000 for such wisdom, Gurdjieff brought a prostitute to their table and told her he was from another planet. The food he was eating, he told her, was sent to him from his home planet at no small expense. He gave the prostitute some of the food and asked her what it tasted like. She told him it tasted like cherries. 'That's the secret of life,' Gurdjieff told the English lady. She called him a charlatan and left. Later that day, however, she gave him the money and became a devoted follower.

To those on a quest for spiritual evolution or transformation, guides like Gurdjieff and Ouspesky promise entry into an esoteric world of ancient mystical wisdom. Such a world must seem attractive to those who are out to sea and rudderless. There are Gurdjieff Ouspensky Centers in over 30 countries around the world; they are operated by the Fellowship of Friends.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:32:19 (GMT)
From: Beware
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Gurdjieff and Ouspensky
Message:
I knew someone involved with a Gurdjieff group in NY state. They had a leader who was never referred to by his name, just a code, and people hung onto his every word. When he died a lot of politics was involved over who would lead the group from then on.
People communicated by letter with the group, and who was invited to know where it was or to live there was tightly controlled. You had to think along the right lines or you were not considered a serious enough student to gain access to this information. Sounds pretty cultish to me.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:21:59 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: There is a cult
Message:
There may be more than one Gurdgieff (sp?) cult. The one I know about that is located closest to me is called the 4th Way, I believe, and is in Oregon House, California. I had a co-worker many years ago (when I was still in the San Francisco ashram) who had moved out of their version of the ashram. She was quickly losing all respect for the cult leader, a guy named 'Richard.' They were into cultured talk, fancy wine, beautiful art and music. She told me that when they spoke, they weren't allowed to use contractions. (i.e. can't had to be can not.) She took a second job because she was deeply in debt to the cult, and washed her hands of it after the debt was paid off. She confided all this in me because she knew that other people would think that it was just plain wierd, but as someone in an ashram I could understand. I did move out of Maharaji's ashram myself while at that job.

After I moved out of the San Francisco ashram I had another survivor of the 4th Way in my circle of premie friends. This man did not receive K because of his aversion to cults, although he loved the premies. He said that the people involved in the cult, the devotees, were extremely sincere, but that this Richard character lived a high on the hog lifestyle with the cult's money, and had a debauched sexual lifestyle with many gay male lovers. I believe he had been one of them, and couldn't stand the deception.

YEARS later, one of my close friends, a symphony orchestra player and cello teacher was hired on several occasions each summer to play classical music for the cult up at Oregon House. She said that they were always trying to recruit her.

Several years ago I was in a reflexology class with a very nice woman (I believe her husband is a doctor -- they were from South America) who were members of the cult. She was a very nice person. Beware of Gurdgieff cults!

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:54:19 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yes, there is more than one cult in their names!
Message:
Richard Burton's seems to be the most infamous. One group I contacted wanted 5% of my gross income!!! Good bye!

You should always be very wary ... that's for sure.

Anna

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:38:43 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Appreciate your views
Message:
Dear Anna,

You seem to be a student of a lot of different streams of thought and views, and that is a good thing!

Never a leader or a follower be.

bests, f

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:34:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: PS
Message:
It's Robert, not Richard Burton, and the name of the cult is Fellowship of Friends. There must me more, because that's not the one I called. I read up on it quite a bit a while ago - financial and sexual abuse. Some former members have set up a forum similar to this one. It's quite sad to see the same patterns in all these cults.

Rick Ross

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:10:26 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Stonor this is WILD!
Message:
I knew the group was wierd, but this confirms everything I heard and expands upon it. And there are chilling similarities, such as the cult saying about ex cult members who criticize the group, 'why can't he just 'get on with his life.''

Yowsa:

Gurdgieff and Ouspensky cult

It also confirms Robert Burton's wierd sexual appetite for young men, his debaucherias. Thanks for the links. I've bookmarked it.

Francesca

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 11:53:58 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: And then some!
Message:
I couldn't agree with you more, Francesca!

I read one story somewhere where Burton had told someone that they had to kill their dog because it's 'octave' was over! I've read a number of accounts of people who had immediate contact with Gurdjieff and I've never heard of anything even remotely like that.

I always wondered why I was so cautious about these 'esoteric' groups - over the last year and a half I have stopped wondering! Nonetheless, of all I've read (and that's a lot!) I've found Gurdjieff and Ouspensky writings to be the most interesting and, at times, close to my intuition going back a long before I read about any of this at all. There are only a couple of other books on these topics that I have found comparable. The whole phenomena of religions and cults is quite fascinating, and Gurdjieff is the only source I've read that discusses this in any coherent way.

Well, I guess I should see what Mili's raving about.

Anna

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:05:35 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: Bob
Subject: Gurdjieff and Ouspensky
Message:
I posted quite a bit about them last year. Here's an interesting quote I came across recently:

'If the tendency in new religious movements toward a cult of the personality could be measured, the Gurdjieff movement would surely score at the very bottom of the scale.'

It's from this site, which has an excellent overview
Gurdjieff in America: An Overview

I've posted my email address above, but please be patient with me ... I can be slow with emails.

Anna (a non-anything who has been growing more and more interested in the Gurdjieff work over the last 15 - 20 years.)

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:52:16 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: You're in a CULT, anna
Message:
CULT, CULT, CULT, CULT !!!
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:55:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Which one is that? (just curious ;)
Message:
hmmm ... 'Dumbo' ... maybe you can't help me find out.

And didn't you say you didn't want to talk with me Mili?

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 08:33:17 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: The GURDJIEFF cult
Message:
That's what this whole thread is about, get it?
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 12:02:25 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Oh my Whatever-It-Is!! That means you are too!!!!
Message:
And I must be in a Muktananda cult, a Mother Teresa cult, a Tompkins cult, an Evans-Wentz cult, a Attar cult, a Dag Hammerskjold cult, a Rumi cult, an Erikson/Ghandi cult, an Islamic cult, a Lewis Carroll cult, ...

Shit! I had no idea reading could be so dangerous!!! No wonder m tells you his breath is his Bible, his Gita, and his Koran!

(does that mean Jim's in a 'Skeptic's Dictionary' cult too? I think I'm beginning to understand!;)

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:53:50 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: shut up dumbo! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:56:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Also, Bob
Message:
If I remember correctly, you mentioned an interest in Native American spriritual traditions. If so, you might find this site interesting as well. Here's a brief description of their areas of study:

'The DuVersity sponsors seminars, workshops and dialogues, publishes and sells books and tapes, and networks with allied or complementary people and organizations in such fields as biospherics, management, music, Native American tradition, and psychotherapy.'

The Duversity Index

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 13:03:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: What Gurdjieff doesn't claim too loud
Message:
is that he's been a disciple of Radhasoami gurus also, as well as some other pirs etc
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 13:58:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What you haven't read ...
Message:
He discusses all of this quite openly, Jean-Michel.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:16:42 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: OK, I'm not a specialist
Message:
the only thing I must say is that I found his writings and theories quite obscure. Maybe simply because he wasn't not using modern language.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:47:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: They are not easy reading ...
Message:
Out of curiousity, what have you read? Some parts of what I've read are quite obscure, and I can only get a vague idea of the concepts discussed and others parts are clearer to me than most of what I've read on the topic. I've also found that my reading and experiences in general have helped me to understand the Gurdjieff work better over the years. Some of the books I have read more than once, and I realize how much I have already absorbed as well.

Anna

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:46:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Not easy because it's gibberish
Message:
Stonor,

There's no real meaning in any of Gurdjieff's stuff. It's all smoke and mirrors. Surprised you can't see that.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 13:21:50 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What Gurdjieff doesn't claim too loud
Message:
Surprise! But he does uncouple the awareness part with breathing which I think is really original. It makes it more authenthic.
I am really not well informed about all this, but of course not anything which the radhasoami gurus ever touched will be forever contaminated. (although it often does feel like that) The success of the movement(s) is not just rooted in illusion. It is the mix of illusion, half truths and universal truths which makes it so toxic.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:24:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Gurdjieff is empty of real meaning
Message:
The success of the movement(s) is not just rooted in illusion. It is the mix of illusion, half truths and universal truths which makes it so toxic

Bob,

Just the other day, as it happens, I was looking at a few quotes from both these guys. They're 'true' only if oyu buy into the general, new age spiritual shit we all assumed was true going back to Watts and Ram Dass. I don't think any of it's true now. None of it. It's all wrong.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:11:45 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This guy is catching attention though.
Message:
i remember in the book: 'the fourth dimension', of Ouspensky, written in 1904, that he describes Rubrik's cube puzzle in detail. (The mind bender of the 70's). I like Gurdjieff's book: 'meeting with remarkable men', the rest is gibberish to me.
Ouspenski is the writer I do like. He brings up many interesting and cool vieuwpoints and parts of it are practical! To me his technique of self remembering is superior to the radhasoamis, superior to mahhaa's 'holy name.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:44:26 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Ouspensky got it from Gurdjieff.
Message:
Out of curiousity, why are you discussing it with Jim? He seems to get all his info from the Skeptic's Dictionary, and I know for certain that his quote from Fritz Peters, for example, is false. There was a story about a woman and Gauloise cigarettes, and she went back to the US - she never did any work with him.

Anna

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:02:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Often wondered if Rawat studied Gurdjieff
Message:
and Ouspensky - their mind-bending pseudo-intellectualism, tongue in cheekness and total disrespect for common sense. The most smug and loopy people I have ever met were G and O cultists.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 11:33:51 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Wherever I look your face is before me.
Message:

It is not an easy task to clear up after K. M's facile comments about 'just walk' are deceptive. Premies who come here and bluster about 'move on', 'get a life' etc. are talking about something about which they know nothing. As ever premie jis are happy to trot out what they have extrapolated from their masters comments as self-evident truth.

When a premie says to me just drop it and move on,what are they telling me? Are they saying that their own relationship to the master is just that of a disposable passing acquaintance- M. as a mere technique dispenser? I don't think the boss would like to hear that, and anyway it is blatently not the case. M.goes deep and he makes sure he does.

I conclude that premies have no idea about just how deep inside their own psyches, their relationship with PPSR extends. And how could they? Since recieving K, they have never made any attempt to differentiate themselves from the K,M package. Heresy treason-why should I,I am perfectly happy,it works, (whatever that means)
and so on. (what do premies mean when they say 'it works'?)

When I got knowlege from the GURU Maharaj ji, I consented to assosciate his being by means of four techniques with certain deep aspects of my psychic life. I consented and vowed. Up to the point of K these aspects of my being, had been un-conscious to me, forgotten, in me. They were re-awoken and immediately stamped with the face of the Guru. Thereafter they were burdened with association after assosciation, all connecting my inner life with the personality of the Master.

The four ( think of a number) techniques go deep, and with them the influnce of the master. Tech no 1 effects your image making-imaginative capacity-a pretty universal function-and there right in the middle of it dressed in his Krishna costume is the Man himself!

Number two, perceptions of sound, balance, form, language(at least thats what I percieve) all tainted with the presence of The Great One who initiated you.

Number three.The breath itself! Give me a break! This is MY breath! I don't want to be thinking of a DVD image of a twenty foot high brown face telling me about a swinging motion! Fuck off! leave my breath alone.

Number four (controversial here), but to me the deepest of all. An 'inner' perception of my metabolic and digestive processes! Christ,it doesn't get any more personal and intimate than that does it? And there HE is in living slow motion 'doing it'!

So dear Premies!
I am trying to get the toothpaste back in the tube-not an easy task-but I AM succeding by my grace. Until you make your own personal attempt to reclaim what is yours and yours Alone, please no more facile and transparent suggestions to me to fade away gracefully.
You have no idea what is going on here.

Love Bryn

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 19:21:51 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Wherever I look your face is before me.
Message:
Hi Bryn---
I have an opinion about what's going on here. When I practice Knowledge, I don't see a DVD image or a brown face, or any of the the lurid descriptions you put forth. And for me, Knowledge IS me, the most personal and private thing. I'm grateful to my teacher for giving me the opportunity to have a private, individual experience of joy. I absolutely support your right NOT to like the experience you had, and to think M is a bozo. However, please respect my right to feel differently. Most people here tag everything they say with a personal insult. And that's, ultimately, more telling than anything any 'gooey' or air-headed premies could say or not say.

'We have met the enemy, and he is us.'
Pogo

Love is simple, and powerful. You can't think your way into it.
It's there, or it's not. I love M. You don't. Okay. We're both still cool; you have to process the loss and hurt you feel, and I honor you and respect you for doing that. Everybody has to do that, and then move on. It's not cold or unfeeling when I say that to you----it's my experience in love.

There have been many, many posts here from PWKs who are smart, funny, kind, and strong. Some have been immediately censored, most have not. PLEASE take a look at some of your mistaken(IMO) beliefs about my relationship with M & K. Out of respect, and openness, and a desire for growth. My best to you......

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 11:29:05 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Oh Mr W. Why you still sleep?
Message:
Dear Mr Williams, It is hard to respond to you.

I get the feeling if you bend over backwards any further to be 'open' and 'groovy' you will break. This is not a Fredrick S Perles its all one man issue. And your Walt Kelly quote cuts both ways.

Spiritual experience is not a matter of rights-rights for me to feel my truth, rights for you to feel yours, rights to criticise, and we all 'love' each other really. I know you think it is. It is exactly that vagueness in your world picture that makes you happy to be a follower. It is also what enables others to lead you.

When you say, as you do, knowlege IS me, well I can only assume you are short circuiting somewhere in your use of language. (and that is a charitable interpretation in my opinion))

Neither is this a psychological issue about me 'processing hurt' Obviously from your surging, vague, feelingful stance it must be.

Mr Williams it is time to broaden your understanding of yourself and your context in the world. You lecture on the nature of love reveals an attempt to appear at once naive and authoritative. You are obviously neither. What is interesting about your outpouring is the evident longing you have to impart on matters about which you know so little. Is this because you yourself have spent too long in the listeners position?

Mr Williams, it is possible to bring to bear on to matters pertaining to the spirit, strong individual forces of will and personal discrimination. By means of individual insights won in this way, processes of spirit become transparent, lucid, and (dare I suggest it) beyond the realms of subjectivity. Heresy I know. No opinions, no advisors, no loyalties, no mystic feelings, no mumbo no jumbo. No waffle.

Mr Williams, to you Maharaji represents an absolute frontier. How can there be anything beyond? Well Mr Williams I suggest you curb your urge show your respect for others points of view including Mr Rawats, and mine. It is no more than an attempt to appear all embracing and superior-a stance that you obviously are conditioned to, but as yet have no right to.

In all your generousnes you fail to acknowlege the simple fact that I was where you are now-but have moved on.

I remain, your respectfully,

Mr Bryn Davies

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 17:18:45 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Beautifully spoken, Bryn. Don't know how you have
Message:
the patience. Just a really nice answer. Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:10:44 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Your response had a certain poetry Pat.nt
Message:
fg
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:41:55 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Censoring Premies
Message:
Mr. Williams,

You said:-

There have been many, many posts here from PWKs who are smart, funny, kind, and strong. Some have been immediately censored, most have not.

Thank you for saying that most such posts have not been censored, but which posts have been immediately censored, apart from Djuro who only posts one line posts, and never responds to anyone else's posts? He/she could hardly be described from the evidence here as 'smart, funny, kind, and strong'.

Forum Admin

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 17:38:17 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Wherever I look your face is before me.
Message:
great post bryn! it took me a long time to disconnect from m. i would try to meditate but end up semi consciously going into my 'normal' meditation routine, which included doing pranam on the floor to m, praying to him for his guidence and help with my practice...remember anyone...all those years between 1971 and mid 80's (at least) hearing about praying to him for help, all the pranammimg we did before him in adoration and 'appreciation'..being chided if we did not show the proper respect (dare we stand in a room when he entered, etc).

all this is to say simply, that i agree completely that m was deep in my psyche and he consciously engineered that (with our help and semi conscious consent...certainly our help...festivals, all the service we did to reinforce him onto his throne).

are things really all that different now...still seems to be lots of emphasis on m...the pictures, dancing, singing songs to and about him...arti and darshan in australia and other places...

but frankly, i skip right over the posts from premies spouting the party line about 'just walk'...the party line will always be to direct those that leave to do so quietly...to avoid direct conversation with critics...for m and his followers to just keep walking remember the elephant story...how to avoid being bothered by the small animals that would come to try to bring it down...how those small animals would try to circle it, barking and jumping...but if the elephant just kept walking...etc remember that party line story years ago??? that is m's favorite strategy in dealing with critics like me and others.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:04:45 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: + never sit with your feet pointing toward rugu(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 20:07:02 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: such
Subject: + don't lick the envelopes addressed to rugu (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:47:32 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: **Hurrah for BD** (NT)
Message:
Badgers Brace yourselves !
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:44:56 (GMT)
From: Moley (aka Moldy)
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Loaf
Subject: Loafie...OT
Message:
Hi - its me, with new name (did you see my coming out thread below??)...
How are you? - long time no see - must remedy that soon. Wondering if you have been on your big trip yet?
Can you Email me or ring Nige... nothing urgent.
xxxxx
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 14:14:57 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Great Post, Bryn
Message:
Bazza posted on Life''s Great that he had a darshan dream and it confused him. Just another symptom of how deep Maharaji penetrated.

Not a cult?

John.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:45:38 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Bryn and JHB
Subject: Brilliant post Bryn
Message:
In times of extreme stress I still sometimes catch myself doing nectar technique. That's the last thing I would choose to do now if I needed solace, but my nervous system obviously still remembers the years when I did it.
It's a nasty thought that we have been so successfully programmed that the programmes are still running against our will (not to mention the question of what these programs consist of - that's an even nastier thought).
The ramifications of that are pretty horrendous.
I always remember someone here saying that getting rid of Rawatland on a cellular level was the hardest.
I think your post has brought up a very necessary subject.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 12:42:44 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Wherever I look your face is before me.
Message:
It is like a large can of white paint and dropping just a spoonful of red in it. the result is VERY pink.
By having practiced k. it is very hard to ever own back the spontanious way towards higher states of conciousness.
(like in my situation where I do acknowledge spirituality, but have to remain agnostic)
When I was exing 10 years ago I spent a lot of time researching other disciplines, bought some volumes about yoga and Tao.
By getting the information from other sources, and most important, exeeding the intensity of the experience(not so hard, the experience of m. and k. is not all that fantastic) it becomes obvious, even for our subconcious mind ('heart'??), that rawat is just a little creep making totally unjustified claims.
The intensity of devotional feelings is harder to crack. Fortunately I was spared most of this: I always had an instinctive dislike for him and at darshan I felt many times this was mutual. But even so the full force of my religious drive was in pursuit of 'realizing' k. This intensity is almost impossible to match.
The way out I found is going back to my childhood, around 6 years old, my relation with God then. Absolutely nothing can match the purity and intensity of a childs' religiousness!
That way I could own up to all the intensity I ever put into m. and k. and his cult...
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:56:56 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Great post, Bryn. The only time I now feel anger
Message:
towards Ratwat is when some unexamined Maharajism floats up from my subconscious. The new improved and evolved premies can say that they never bought the god in a bod BS but I think if ever they try to divorce the urug they will find that that is not the case.

Yes, Bob, I never liked him either but I did love him in a religiously fanatical way. Funny you say you felt he never liked you either. That was also my experience. The dozen or so times that I was close to him (in darshan etc) and looked into his eyes, he would always squirm and look away and sometimes a fleeting scowl would pass over his face. This would devastate me. My first ten years (from 73 to 83) with him were a mixture of moments of bliss and years of torture that he did not approve of me. All of his lies, pretenses and deceptions will eventually catch up with him.

But he probably believes all that devotee as dog shit that his drunken dad stuffed down his throat and is probably more superstitious and fearful about it than we are given that he does not have the intellect to think his way out of it. Poor bugger. And, if he does not belive that dad was god in a bod and has been cynically using it, then that will eventually show on his face. He is been becoming coarser and uglier every year. Peoples' faces do reveal their characters and his is very ugly.

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 03:11:05 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Drunken dad? Say more Pat...
Message:
Is MJ the alcoholic adult child of an alcoholic?

Yes, I agree with you all, it goes very deep. I have also found that as someone put it above (sorry can't remember who), exceeding the experience of Knowledge was the way to deprogram it.

That same poster mentioned that what had worked for him was going back to the age of six, reclaiming his prior spirituality. This really resonated for me. I was just back in England, seeing my parents. I had a few days to go down to Glastonbury, my favorite place in England. I had an amazing spiritual awakening there 30 years ago. Wait a minute, I realized, it was EXACTLY 30 years ago! After not going to England for years, I managed to take myself there, and to Glastonbury exactly 30 years to the day from the summer solstice Glastonbury festival where I had this incredible experience of my spiritual oneness with everything, before MJ. Now, as you may know, MJ was at that festival, but I just thought he was a stupid, fat kid with unbelievable sycophantic followers. Later, when I got Knowledge, I stupidly attributed my experience to his having been there. Hah!

It was so wonderful at Glastonbury. Very magical, in an earth mysteries kind of way. Hard to describe. I remembered what I had felt so long ago. It was so wonderful to go back to my authentic pre-Maharaji spirituality.
Ah, nature! The birds that have shown up around my house today!

Swooning, love Katie

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:42:32 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Great post, Bryn. The only time I now feel anger
Message:
To: PatC

From: Mr. Williams

Re: your post

Irony content: 0%

What you wrote deeply touched me. I'm so sorry you felt rejected
and unloved. That's a terrible, hellish thing to feel, especially regarding someone who may be the Lord, according to your beliefs at that time. I'm glad you've gotten the help you need to deal with that pain---I assume and hope you have.

I felt pretty much immediate, powerful love for M from the first time I saw him, and that feeling has continued until now. I've sincerely never felt rejected or violated by him in any way.
I've seen my own fear-based remnants of Hindu cosmology kick my ass and depress me a number of times---a big number, to be honest---but my actual experience in the same place with M has always been pretty loving, and, for me, I can't control or understand, even, other peoples' perspective or reaction; all I have control over is my reactions to my own perceptions---to me, that's what growing up is, completely independent of Knowledge or Maharaji---to understand that you can't really know jack shit about anybody else's experience, and that you are not a slave to your emotions and thoughts---you have the power to forgive, and to put your attention on something else (thank you, Albert Ellis, Byron Katie, et.al.)

Different strokes for different folks, as Sly Stone used to say.

My best to you......

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 07:11:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Go fuck yourself you anonymous moron
Message:
You don't know me you smarmy patronising piece of brainwashed mincemeat. Or should I put that politely - you're making assumptions you silly fellow. You really don't seem to speak English. Is it your second language in which case I'll cut you slack but really you always seem to read something entirely of your own fabrication sprung from a guru-addled brain into other peoples posts and yet never seem to actually address what was said in those posts. Why are you here?
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 22:15:37 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Uhh, Pat...
Message:
(I'm on a roll of post titles beginning with 'uhh...')

It's my impression that Mr. Williams post was quite sincere. There may be some subtext between you and him that I don't know about and that would justify your response (that happens a lot here!). But otherwise, I would just say that maybe he made some assumptions that weren't true.

Anyway, I'd like to cut the guy some slack because he truly appeared to be honest about what he was saying - including an irony content percentage.

Take care - both of you -
Katie

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 01:36:28 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Subtext's on Ag, Katie......................... NT
Message:
h
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:21:30 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: And my best to you! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 11:06:04 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Are there ex prem get togethers?
Message:
As I am a very occasional checker outer of this site, (due to pressure of time etc)so this may be something that has been covered before and I have missed.

I had a quick trawl around the web today looking at this site and other ex prem sites and it seems the best thing that I recall about the whole experience was the people that I met. Certainly, I recall enjoying the company of my fellow aspirants and premies hugely and over a long period of time. (though I failed miserably as a spiritual student because despite long and painful hours of 'meditation', I saw no light, heard no sound, tasted no nectar and felt no vibration so I eventually slipped away from the group, a failure in my own mind - at the time)

It struck me that it would be a nice idea if there was say a monthly or quarterly gettogether in all cities where premies lived.

A permanent pub or bar could be nominated for each city in all relevant countries and a universal date - say the first Friday of every quarter at 7.00pm (Jan, April, July, Oct). The venues could be posted to this site and wherever ex prems are in the world today, they could meet and enjoy each others company for a couple of hours, say 4 times a year.

No doubt some cities would fizzle out or not happen at all but others would probably thrive and provide a nice and ongoing interlude.

Bye for now.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 11:26:10 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: There certainly are!
Message:
Hi Mark,

We've had a few in London and there have been at least two in SF. Smaller ones have happened elsewhere. I'm not sure your schedule idea would work, but what do I know. If you want to search the archives, some exes refer to these gettogethers as 'Latvian Nights'. Try a search ( engine on Sir Dave's site - link above) on Latvian and there's a good chance you'll find previous threads on the subject. By all reports, they have been very enjoyable events.

Where do you live?

John Brauns

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:57:07 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks for the info
Message:
Ah so thats what Latvian nights are. I have wondered.

I live in Australia but have not come across anything similar.

Do you knoe how the name came into being??

Regards

Mark.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 07:37:34 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where is that quote from m in Fiji 2000
Message:
where he said something like

'you need m to be saved '

I'd like to have the whole excerpt with details, if anyone has it, to have it on EPO.

I genuinely thought that Mr Rawat wasn't saying things like that, and never said anything like that.

JM, still recovering from brainwash ...

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:15:46 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: M: ''No one has ever saved himself...''
Message:
M went through a period of saying in many videos, ''No one in the history of mankind has ever saved himself.''

This really bugged me, because it begged the question, ''saved'' from WHAT? Premies still die like other people, so from WHAT is M going to ''save'' anyone?

Christians use the word ''Saved'', and they definitely have a ''from WHAT'' in mind when they use it. M is pretty vague these days about what he means. Deliberately, I would say.

I eventually discovered that the Rhadosoami's teach that the guru comes to the devotee at the time of death, and ''saves'' them by lifting them up into a higher dimention, or some such unprovable religious hooey. It would seem to explain M's other remarkes as well, such as ''think of the Master when you die'', and ''Belief is Relief''.

If I had been told such things when I first became interested in M and K, I would have dropped it quickly. It's too much like the unprovable crap fundamentalist christians try to shove onto people.

Sorry I can't find the exact quote or satsang for you. I do know he said ''No one has ever saved himself'' quite a lot for a while, in many videos, as justification that people needed the Master to do it (salvation) for them. I hope someone reading here can get the complete text for you.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:39:18 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: I think Way may have posted the quote once...
Message:
Perhaps he'll see this respond?
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:17:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: PatC ? Was it in one of your posts ? (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:39:23 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rev Rawat: ''Belief is Relief.'' Fiji, 2000
Message:
This was his sound bite for over a year throughout 1999 and 2000. Variations of ''You are like a fly caught in a spider web. The more you struggle the more you get entangled and then the Master in all his kindness and mercy comes and gently lifts you out. If you relax and let the Master save you blah blah blah. In the history of mankind no one has ever saved themselves. You need the Master to save you from that spider web. Believe in the Master. Have trust. Belief is relief.''

Not only in Fiji, Jean-Michel. He said it several times at several places.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 10:35:22 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PatC? I think I've got it here
Message:
His Holeyness has admitted that he has ''evolved'' from being perfect into being more perfect. But he is still saying some pretty heavy stuff like: ''In the history of the human race there has never been one person who has saved themselves. You need the Master to save you.'' Rev Rawat, Fiji, 2000

Do you have an EV document or anything else ?

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:15:04 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I've read it in one of your recent posts.
Message:
Don't you have the quote ?
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:03:56 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Sorry, J-M. I got rid of all my guru crap
Message:
just before I came to FV. I did not realize that it might come in useful. Hopefully some of the other recent exes will have videos from 1999 and 2000. I gave mine to a premie. I could always borrow it back but I know I could not watch it unless I had insomnia.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 05:13:44 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: JM's report on EV ad in French paper.
Message:
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Surreal add paid by EV in French newspaper today
Message:
Page 13 in 'Le Monde' dated Sunday July 1st - Monday July 2nd.
Whole page paid by EV, in answer to the campaign and defamations published by a part of the French media last may.

I'll have to scan the article and translate this for you (unless it's already on some EV website, I'm going to check first.

The usual EV PR blabla.

Last sentence is quite funny (the rest too), where they say :
M doesn't teach a religion or a philosophy or a lifestyle, but a simple way to feel the inner satisfaction ........ ..... when EV is registerted as a church in the US and several other countries !!!!!!

I understand that EV IS a religion, but doesn't *teach* a religion !!!! What's wrong here Mr. PR ?????

Another funny thing: During the past 12 years, M travelled about 3.5 millions kilometers aboard private rented airplanes .......

I'm not hallucinating, this is the REAL newspaper I have beside me now.

Le Monde is one of the most read and serious daily newspapers in France. I should check some other newspapers maybe, like Le Figaro.

One page in such a newspaper is EXTREMELY costly !!!!!

I must be hallucinating.

What's most ironic, is that page 12 (vis à vis) is dedicated to the horrible events in Soweto 25 years ago, where the police shot school children. Do you remember that Rajaji's satsang (or was it Bhole's) when he said that M is going to bring peace in South Africa ?

Not such claims anymore I guess. Are these premies at peace actually to start such a campaign against the media in France ?


From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here's the Babe Fish translation
Message:
Vital Dash
A development of l?association Vital dash
The congress organized by Vital Dash May the 26 and 27 in Versailles gave place to defamatory attacks on behalf of part of the newspaper industry and audio-visual, for which association is reserved to require repair.

Vital the Elan association, which supports the teaching of Maharaji in France, makes a point of making the following development:

1 / Vital is Élan indexed in the parliamentary report/ratio ' Guyard' of January 1996 - without to be intended nor to have been able to profit from a debate? among 172 movements suspectés to be sectarian. The Commission retained these movements on the basis of not recognized criterion
universally by the experts and in whom Vital Elan is not recognized. Precedents already showed that certain groups quoted in this report/ratio appeared in it by error. Unfortunately, it is impossible to modify a report/ratio when it officially was already adopted by the Parliament.

2 / Vital Élan makes a point of stressing that associations working towards the same end, in other countries, enjoy a governmental recognition. It is the case in Europe where several saw themselves granting the statute of foundation or are recognized of public utility: in the United Kingdom, in Spain, in Slovénie. In Belgium, association received an official distinction for its good legal and financial management.

3 / Maharaji teaches since 1966. Since this date, it gave 2 500 conferences in more than 250 cities and 50 countries. During twelve last years, it travelled intensely: to address itself to approximately two million people in the world, it traversed approximately 3,5 million kilometers on board rented private aircrafts.

4 / the teaching of Maharaji, primarily oral, is available on audio-visual supports. Each one is free to follow it, give up it and to return there to its liking. To follow this teaching does not require to be member of association, to support its activities or to take part in it financially. The recent congress of Versailles, for example? as all conferences organized by Vital Dash - at summer financed exclusively by gifts which did not constitute a condition of access at all.

5 / This teaching is exempted free. Maharaji itself never drew any income from the conferences which it gives and gave up voluntarily very royalty on their diffusion. He and its family has independent means of existence. Élan Vital covers only the transport charges and stay relating to the conferences to which it is invited.

6 / In its teaching, Maharaji recalls, as much did before him, than what we seek finds in ourselves. L! teach neither a religion, neither a philosophy, nor a life style, but a means simple and concrete to feel the satisfaction which already exists in an inherent way in each human being.

Association Vital Dash

Statute
Association with nonlucrative goal recorded with the prefecture of Paris in 1990.

Activities
Organization of conferences with Maharaji as well as video or satellite conferences; availability of the French public of the teaching of Maharaji on audio-visual supports and via satellite in residence.

Budget
Two million francs:
· 70 % for the organization of conferences,
· 20 % for the production of audio-visual and written supports,
· 10 % for the administrative expenses.

A number of people attending the conferences organized by Vital Dash
1 000 approximately. No need for adhering to association. The file contains only the names of those and those which wish to be personally informed of the activities of association. It is deposited at the National Commission of data processing and Freedoms.

www.elanvital.fr
Postal Address: LP 96 -
75862 Paris cedex 18? Tel.: 0142524028

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:29:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: independent means?
Message:
Translation of what Elan Vital wrote
'He and his family have an independent means of existence.'

That is a lie. For his 'means of existence' to be independent of Elan Vital, Elan Vital would have to have nothing to do with premies giving him money. I and many others know for a fact that this is not the case. We were repeatedly asked by Elan Vital personnel to give money to Rawat. We were instructed on how to do that. Mahatmas/initiators/instructors has taken 'love gifts' for Rawat from premies and the beginning of darshan lines. These darshan lines occurred at Elan Vital events. Giving money to Rawat is an underlying theme in Elan Vital events. At least one of his kids works for Elan Vital, do they not?

Even IF it were true that Rawat doesn't somehow get money indirectly from donations to Elan Vital or the sale of Elan Vital products (via Visions International), that statement is still a lie.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 05:18:08 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: JM's report on EV ad in French paper.-cpnt....
Message:
Subject: I don't know how they have the guts to publish
Message:
such lies !!!!!!
And how much they actually paid to print such a thing !!!!

Anybody reading this and checking their website understands what EV is about ....

Their naiveness is touching

Who paid for this ? The Swiss EV foundation ?
EV France claims a $300,000 annual budget.
How much are they going to ask the French media for the dammage caused by their defamatory campaign ?

$ 1,000,000 ?????????

Jean-Michel, still wondering where this is going to end ......

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:30:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Vital Dash for your life!
Message:
Thanks for reposting this. It got kind of lost in the shuffle of the Charles ''Who Lives in a Glasshouse and should not throw stones'' Unmentionable (thanks Nige) brouhaha.

A development of association Vital Dash

The congress organized by Vital Dash (I definitely enjoy Babel Fish more than the Pornolizer) May the 26 and 27 in Versailles blah blah blah.

Vital the Elan association, which supports the teaching of Maharaji in France, makes a point of making the following development:

1 / Vital is Élan indexed in the parliamentary blah blah blah etc.

2 / Vital Élan makes a point of stressing that associations working towards the same end blah blah blah etc.

Ed. Most of this is true. The cult law in France seems to be aimed at cults with closed societies (much like DLM in the seventies with its weird ashram culture and DUO, DECA, WWA, WPC etc.) not at loose associations such as EV which relies on volunteers drawn from ordinary society. No matter how much the old ashramites might scream bloody murder the fact is that EV is not now viewed by society at large as being a cult. It may be odd and quaint but it is no longer sinister in the eyes of the law.

3 / Maharaji teaches since 1966. Since this date, it gave 2 500 conferences in more than 250 cities and 50 countries. During twelve last years, it travelled intensely: to address itself to approximately two million people in the world, it traversed approximately 3,5 million kilometers on board rented private aircrafts.

Ed. Well the figures are anyone's guess but the IT part is true.

4 / the teaching of Maharaji, primarily oral, is available on audio-visual supports. Each one is free to follow it, give up it and to return there to its liking. To follow this teaching does not require to be member of association, to support its activities or to take part in it financially. The recent congress of Versailles, for example? as all conferences organized by Vital Dash - at summer financed exclusively by gifts which did not constitute a condition of access at all.

Ed. This is all perfectly true. It basically says he's a windbag televangelist like thousands of others who rely on the donations of generous idealists.

5 / This teaching is exempted free. Maharaji itself never drew any income from the conferences which it gives and gave up voluntarily very royalty on their diffusion. He and its family has independent means of existence. Élan Vital covers only the transport charges and stay relating to the conferences to which it is invited.

Ed. This is all perfectly true but lies by omission. I think Rev Rawat has by now amassed sufficient wealth to generate a healthy interest income and has therefore stopped taking money from EV's dwindling funds as donations in the west drop drastically. (There are currently ten regular poster to FV who have recently left EV and stopped sending money. I know how much I sent so I'll multiply that by ten equals $20,000 and probably more per year. I know people who raise families on that. There goes that monthly mortgage payment on the Malibu mansion!) They also fail to mention how the money was amassed and how many other peoples' unpaid labor, inheritances and trust funds supplied it.

6 / In its teaching, Maharaji recalls, as much did before him, than what we seek finds in ourselves. L! teach neither a religion, neither a philosophy, nor a life style, but a means simple and concrete to feel the satisfaction which already exists in an inherent way in each human being.

Ed. Rev Rawat teaches ''the satisfaction which already exists in an inherent way in each human being.'' Yep, so, if it already exists, why do we need him. He's redundant - a mere metronome to tell people to remember to breathe and be happy and enjoy life. Hey any fool knows every breath is precious. My barber told me that the other day.

His Holeyness is a nurse maid for people with a sort of Alzheimers that makes them forget to feel appreciation and gratitude for this miracle of life. Apparently they need to be reminded constantly to enjoy being ALIVE. Duh! Like someone said over on Lifes Great: ''If this is a cult then it's a Monty Python cult.'' Reminds me of the best joke Rev Rawat ever told.

It's the one about the woman who goes to the dentist with a walkman tape-player plugged into her ears. She tells the dentist NEVER to remove the earplug/headset. He gives her a pain shot and she dozes off. He removes the earplugs. Woman dies. (Rawat chortles - he sure enjoys his schadenfreude.) Dentist is curious and listens to what the woman has been hearing on her walkman. It says: ''Breathe in. Breathe out.'' I guess Balyouguesswhat is a Sony walkman for those who are just a bit forgetful.

Association Vital Dash

Statute
Association with nonlucrative goal recorded with the prefecture of Paris in 1990. Blah blah blah.

Ed. I suppose so. Yawn.

Let's not demonise Rev Rawat beyond what he really is. He's a preacher for peasants and the hoi-polloi. We were silly enough to fall for the Hindu drag and guru showbiz. And some of us were silly enough to stick around for the Krishna in business drag show. Yuk.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:58:12 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: breathe in,breathe out:his haircutter's joke...(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 05:07:37 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I think Pia is bullshiting
Message:
There are more exes than premies in the world. that's what the stats show, have a look for yourself. Click on the flashy botton then 'current vote stats' [scroll down]. And if you haven't voted yet, plleeettz do so.

Forum Poll

click on your browser back botton if you don't want to go to the main bage,

Happy dimmpling.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:41:31 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Promise me you'll never use Spellcheck, Salam
Message:
I love your typos. They are priceless.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:54:02 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Wad u tlkig boot?
Message:
Pat the neon light

So now you can go and redo what you've written or I take it off. Any I will sue you, just like Mr Charles that can not be named. Yah.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:06:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Don't nag. I'll look at it .NT
Message:
l
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 00:52:47 (GMT)
From: mOLDY wARP
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Ok guys - this is who I am
Message:
This is me - in all my entirety... as I don't want to be anonymous anymore...
I've been variously known as Mad, Maddy and Madeleine...
I got knowledgie in Edinburgh (Scotland) in 1978, being a member of the Newcastle-upon-Tyne (England) community as an 'aspirant' (god - or any other deities - help me)for 17 months.
When I was first 'an aspirant' my name was Maddy Phillips..,
Then I married a premie...(but that's another story for later!!!) and henceforth became known as Maddy Simon...
I discovered FV about 3 years ago at uni when I was an undergraduate music student.... and got on line, at was once my home, about 9 months ago, and have been becoming increasingly 'addicted' (whatever that means) to FV ever since.
I want to say to you all, that without you I don't think I could ever have got so far so soon....
And I can't do without this place...
For years (over 10) I wrestled with the fact that fuckingbastardface said he was god-in-a-bod and then denied it. None of my premie (or floating-voter) friends saw what my problem was ... so when I found you lot, it was like a water-hole in the desert...
And without you lot, I would still feel like I was on my own...

And totally out of the blue, without looking for him, I met my other-half here... as you all must know by now...
(sorry - correction here - Nige says 'you're my other three quarters')
So anyway guys (and that includes gals too)... henceforth ('or fifth'says Nige - but he's got a 1st class degree in that scientific stuff) I would like to be known here as Moley cos that's what I call myself in real life, having disassociated myself from my former nomenclatures, none of which seem like the real me anymore.

Best love, Moley

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 17:40:27 (GMT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: mOLDY wARP
Subject: Ok guys - this is who I am
Message:
Hi Moley
You have inspired me to come out a bit I am not ready to go the whole way yet, this is all new to me. I have been posting as clarence clear. I am female I did not intend to pretend to be male but in my computer incompetence, I was trying to be clara clear but it would'nt work so that is how I came to be clarence.
So I would like to be magiclara for now if that is ok. I am glad I found this site and am grateful for the support I have recieved. I could have done without Richard having a go at me as I said I am new to this and just finding my feet. I do remember trying and failing to have a sane conversation with fanatical premies in the 70's. Anyway I digress congratulations on coming out.
Best wishes Magiclara
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 23:46:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: That wasn't Richard. That was Richard2
Message:
Our original Richard used to post as Postie before he came out. Maybe you will too, but if not, thanks for the name change. You may want to say magiclara(clarence clear) for a while until people get used to the change.

love, f

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 00:24:10 (GMT)
From: magiclara(clarence)
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Sorry I meant Richard2
Message:
Sorry yes I meant Richard2 thanks for the post. I will one day, I need to work through some stuff first.
Love Magiclara
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:27:05 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB @aol.com
To: Moley
Subject: Oh Moley, you are so holy!
Message:
Maddy, how are ye? Glad to see you have given yourself up here.
Summer has arrived. The guest room is waiting. San Francisco is hot today (an unusual event) and the city is shining.

Hope you are doing well.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:08:52 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Well Clarence/Clara you are not the first TV on FV
Message:
I first started posting as Thelma. But now I've got balls.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 10:00:50 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: mOLDY wARP
Subject: Wasn't Moldy Warp the mole in Squirrel Nutkin?nt
Message:
fg
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 17:48:55 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Wasn't Moldy Warp the mole in Squirrel Nutkin?nt
Message:
congradulations and thanks to both of you for coming more into your own power. i strongly believe that using our own names is both beneficial in our own process of regaining our sense of ourselves...realizing that m and premies have no power over us and we have nothing to fear...and also because it helps others who view this site see our fearlessness and perhaps connect with us in a place of deeper honesty...and personal familiarity even.

thanks again.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:49:08 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Bryn - no, but close! nt
Message:
x
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 23:47:21 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: It was Little Grey Rabbit!
Message:
gh
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:11:27 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Moley
Subject: Welcome out into the sunshine...
Message:
I've been enjoying your posts, and hope to see many more. When I stopped being anonymous, it was very freeing, some paranoia went away that I wasn't even fully aware of till then. It made posting here easier in many ways.

Welcome and Best Wishes,

- Chuck

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:57:26 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Thanks Chuck - freeing it is -
Message:
I feel different. Not just here - but in 3D too - reclaiming in public the bits I gave to Rawat, if you know what I mean.
And, ditto, I've been enjoying your posts
lots of love
Moley (AKA Madeleine - just thought I'd put that name again even though I'm not using it much in my present and future 3D incarnations)
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 03:49:55 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: mOLDY wARP
Subject: Moley (warp)
Message:
Hi Moley,
I have loved reading your posts all this time and must congradulate Nigel on his smart move in attempting to nail you down for a lifetime. I will of course not tread into the
breakup subject!
I agree, the forum is an evolution send. Or as Jim might put it,
a god send. Glad you came out public. Might help a lurker.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:08:11 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Thanks Bill... god send... yes if there was
Message:
one - I reckon she/he would send us FV...In my 'should-I-get-into-christianity-at-least-it-has-some-vestiges-of-morality' last ditch (and failed) attempt to find a religion,
I was going to write a book along the lines of C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters... substituting the devil's temptation methods for those of Rawat..
But hey, I've got better things to do!!
And yes, Nige is a very smart cookie (if I say so myself!)
xx
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 03:38:02 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: mOLDY wARP
Subject: But I knew all that already. I thought you were a
Message:
CIA counterspy and were going to give us the dirt on the Princess Di mystery. And where are the nude pics?

Congratulations Moldy and thank you for your wonderful sense of humor and for being my penpal. Now watch how much more fun it gets to be.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:14:07 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat - hey stop blowing my cover!
Message:
Jesus, I've had to wear a false beard all day!
Hey, re: pics, I told you Nige has temporarily mislaid his extension (but I love him anyway)
xxxxx
PS penpal... ditto and ditto
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 02:22:59 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Ok guys - this is who I am
Message:
Hi Moley, good to know a bit more about you.
I agree that without FV it would have been a lot harder to get out of the mind f*#@*.

Mercedes

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:18:24 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Thanks Mercedes - don't get me on to 'the mind'
Message:
or I'll never get the ironing finished!
No but seriously, Jesus, we all fell for that crap, though I can't now conceive how I managed to!
love Moley primarily a body
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 02:02:19 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: mOLDY wARP
Subject: Ok guys - this is who I am
Message:
Welcome Moley! Always enjoy your posts
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:20:13 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Thanks Bob, and ditto yours nt
Message:
xx
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 04:05:48 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Holy Moley!
Message:
Welcome again to Forum Five in your latest incarnation. And thanks for starting a thread that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not CG, Esq. should be outed.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:25:14 (GMT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Holy Moley! - well that I'm not Richard!
Message:
Thanks for welcome.... This 'the name that cannot be spoken' is taking over...can't resist going to have a look at the thread above (Lady Charlene et al)... oh dear, will never get ironing finished!
xxx
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:44:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Holy Moley! Hallelujah and Amen, Richard!
Message:
Enough is enough.
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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 23:22:44 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'fudiciary responsibility'
Message:
Steve at Lifes Great (sic) suggested that I copy a post of mine on Lifes Great. Below is a copy of the post. It is a reply to Carlos saying that Elan Vital has a 'fudiciary responsibility' to ? (not sure who, maybe its 'clients', 'someone else', a certain non-entity, or 'You Know Who'). This was his justification for Elan Vital personnel not telling him 'confidential details' about EV's finances, even though he was involved in EV's finances. In a prior post he wrote 'I was refering to the FACT that, absent my having a legitimate need to know, details of someone else's financial affairs were none of my business.'

Text below within quotes is from Carlos. Clarifying comments from those with knowledge about 'fiduciary responsibility' are most welcome.

The post:

'Any financial representative owes 'fiduciary responsibility' to his clients.'

Elan Vital is registered as a charity and a church, it is not a financial institution, at least it isn't supposed to be. Is there some 'client' of Elan Vital who needs to be protected? Who?

'Trustees are not the only fiduciaries, either.'

How are you defining fiduciaries in this context? Who are the parties involved?

'And 'fiduciary responability' is different from 'fiduciary' ( or whatever else close to that it was that you looked up the definition of, I haven't gone back to your earlier post to refresh my memory). Trust me on this one, part of what I do for a living has involved both analysing and writing Securities Offerings, where 'fiduciary responsibility' is a very important concept.'

Why should I trust you? You haven't earned my trust. What exactly do you mean by 'fiduciary responsibility' in this context? You've been pretty vague about this.

My source was www.dictionary.com. Here is more from the entry on fiduciary, see the entry for its sources.

fiduciaries
One, such as an agent of a principal or a company director, that stands in a special relation of trust, confidence, or responsibility in certain obligations to others.

[Latin fiduciarius, from fiducia, trust. See fiducial.]

fiduciary n.
1. One who holds a thing in trust for another; a trustee.
'Instrumental to the conveying God's blessing upon those whose fiduciaries they are.' --Jer. Taylor.
2. (Theol.) One who depends for salvation on faith, without works; an Antinomian. --Hammond.

fiduciary
adj
relating to or of the nature of a legal trust (i.e. the holding of something in trust for another); 'a fiduciary contract'; 'in a fiduciary capacity'; 'fiducial power' [syn: fiducial]
n :
a person who holds assets in trust for a beneficiary; 'it is illegal for a fiduciary to misappropriate money for personal gain'

So how exactly is their keeping Elan Vital's finances a secret justified? Please be detailed and specific.

'And if you are worried about M misusing EV money, relax.'

I don't think you understand, I'm not 'worried' about it, I'm convinced of it. 'relax' is simply your word for 'don't doubt'. You're not in a postion to tell me not to doubt. I have many reasons for doubting Rawat. He has misused EV money, at least in other ways. EV resources have been used to solicit 'love gifts' for Rawat (aka 'Guru Maharaj Ji', 'Maharaj Ji', 'Maharaji'). I know that for a fact, since I attended meetings organized by EV officials where 'love gifts' were directly asked for. Giving money to Rawat is an underlying theme at just about all EV events. It's actually part of the full 'practice of Knowledge' (gotta have that 'gratitude' you know). It's reasonable to suspect that some of the money given to EV goes indirectly to Rawat. What's a little more misuse of resources?

'It covers all of his work expenses,'

That it does, and in the most luxurious style, and then some. It also covers the production of video and audio tapes. Who profits? We are not told much, but his kids for sure, they work on the production of these tapes. Do they rent equipment and space, if so from whom? We are not told. I have reason to believe, based on information from the web, that Rawat gets rental money (e.g. from Dunrite). Rawat has lots of A/V equipment in his mansion, including a two million dollar studio. It's very reasonable to assume it's used in the production of these tapes. He very well could also own (or at least control) equipment in the LA area that is used by Visions. Dunrite (for one) rents A/V equipment. Put two and two together.

'and he gets more than enough personal gifts to cover his personal expenses.'

See above. How is it that premies know they are supposed to give personal gifts (money preferred) to Rawat? How do they know the address to send the moola to? In how many religions do members of the congregation give money to the religious leader? Elan Vital is a religion, despite the claims on their web site. It is legally a church, so don't give me any bunk about it not being a religion. Oh sure, people write checks to 'Benny Hinn', but he's a televangelist. It also happens in other cults, but many wrongs don't make a right.

'Plus, they have been very careful to segregate donations from gifts for far longer than exes seem to be willing to adknowledge.'

That's a bit of a straw man argument. I'm not saying that money goes to Rawat DIRECTLY from EV accounts. No, they are a little more slick than that. But consider what you just wrote: 'they have been very careful to segregate donations from gifts'. That is a very damning statement. They shouldn't have ANYTHING TO DO with gifts to Rawat. By saying 'segregate donations from gifts', you are admitting that they have been involved with gifts to Rawat.

Let's see, darshan lines. Mahatmas/initiators/instructors have taken envelopes from premies at the beginning of darshan lines. We were instructed to put money or checks written out to 'Maharaji' (or one of his other names) in the envelope and hand them to these sycophants before entering the tunnel. These darshan events have been put on by Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital.

What else? Elan Vital Ltd., a private company owned by the trustees of 'Elan Vital Trust'. These are separate from Elan Vital Inc. and Elan Vital UK. Premies wrote checks out to 'Elan Vital Ltd.' in order to attend Amaroo. Who ended up getting the moola? Consider that 'Amaroo' is really 'Ivory's Rock Conference Center' which is owned by 'Jeep Nominees'. A nominee is a trustee. Here's a little of that 'fiduciary responsibility' you're talking about. Now who drives a jeep at Amaroo? None other than Prem Rawat.

What else? Dunrite, Wahadamar, Visions International expenses, International Conference Management, Travel Lite, etc. It's extremely nieve to think that Rawat doesn't get any money from these sources.

What else? I attended a meeting put on by EV personnel in which a video was shown about Rawat's new Malibu marble mansion. It showed him happily operating a fork life. They were asking me to give money to support the building of his new mansion.

What else? We were instructed to write out checks monthly to Rawat in the amount of 5% of our take home pay. Oh, and make sure you write 'love gift' as a comment. We were given the mailing address to use for these 'love gifts'.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:20:19 (GMT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: Any exes who care about a
Subject: 'fudiciary responsibility'
Message:
I don't know where G got the idea I stated that EV had a Fiduciary responsibility to anyone, 'casuse I never did. What I thought I had made clear in 3 or 4 replies to him before the 1 he copies excerpts from, above, was that my sources for the information I discussed in my post (since removed) on Pia's page had fiduciary responsabilities to EV, hence kept confidential details I had no need to know. But G seems good at ignoring data or interpretations that don't fit his agenda. It's why I don't enjoy responding to his posts, unlike seemingly fair minded exes such as PatC and Katie.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 16:01:08 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: 'fiduciary responsibility'
Message:
You wrote:
'It's somewhat similar to the confidentiality a doctor owes a patient. Without the patient's consent there are limits a docter should not pass.'
'Any financial representative owes 'fiduciary responsibility' to his clients.'

Elan Vital officials did not tell you the 'confidential secrets' of Elan Vital's finances.

You proposed 'fiduciary responsibility' as an excuse for Elan Vital keeping its finances a secret; that there are 'confidential details'. For this to be valid, Elan Vital would have to have a 'fiduciary responsibility' to another party, it can't have a 'fiduciary responsibility' to itself. When there is 'fiduciary responsibility' there must be two parties involved. How can you possibly consider Elan Vital to be two parties?

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 09:26:14 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: That's actually *so typical*
Message:
premies parroting stuff they don't understand, and saying things that are actually detrimental to their purpose !!!

What a joke ...

Like that ad in Le Monde ! Too funny ....

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 02:40:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: G
Subject: WHOA G -- THANKS FOR THAT
Message:
I am a longtime ex, and my memory is short on the methods of giving money.

Yeah, Knowledge is free. But if you want to grease that inner pole your monkey mind slides up and down on instead of thinking, a few buckolas don't hurt.
--f

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 02:11:15 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'fudiciary responsibility'
Message:
There is one problem with the legal and financial system which makes obvious fraud by rawat so hard to indicate.
In a general fraud situation the con tries to uphold the illusion that they are sincere.
Every premie knows that the main purpose of the donations are for the personal luxury of rawat. It is part of the 'secrets of the cult' and they see the legal shell for what it is, a shell, because premies know that there are no laws applicable for god in a bod. They are in on it.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:44:37 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: 'they are in on it'
Message:
That is so true, any premie 'in the know' knows that is what's going on. I certainly understood that when I was an 'active' premie. The attitude is 'Oh, those stupid worldly laws, they shouldn't hinder Guru Maharaj Ji. They don't apply to him.'
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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 21:38:12 (GMT)
From: Will
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Small addition to forum guidelines
Message:
In the forum introduction you say We advise that you read the messages for a few days before you begin posting. This will give you a general idea of what people are talking about, and of the style of communication commonly used here.

New comers should also be advised to read as much as possible the many pages on this site before coming to the forum. Most premies have no idea what they're talking about when they browse to this web site, go straight to the forum and post. M has always stressed propagation, some premies come to F5 and try their recruiting skills here, of all places. And they wonder why they get blasted, we've been through it all, seen both sides of the coin, they haven't, and they think they can show us something!

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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 01:26:47 (GMT)
From: Richard II
Email: None
To: Will
Subject: Correction
Message:
As premies we've all seen both sides of the coin Will. Don't flatter yourself. On one side is an experience and on the other side is doubt. If you think by virtue of the doubt you've accepted you somehow have deeper insights into Knowledge and Maharaji, I think you are misguided. I've read and entertained it all and remain unmoved.
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 05:56:06 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Richard II
Subject: On one side is an experience ...
Message:
... and on another side is an experience. Life is an experience, death is an experience. It's all an experience. It isn't patented by a guru.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't enjoy yours. Some of us have no use whatsoever for your middleman.

--g

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 21:43:06 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Will
Subject: Small addition to forum guidelines
Message:
Your point is already in the log overdue revised forum guidelines. Thank you for suggesting it.

Forum Admin

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 08:41:27 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: log overdew -- a rainforest misty morning [bleep]
Message:
Heart: long overdue: let's ban truly profane flaming....

Head: what the bleep are you talking about, you bleepin' lil' bleepy piece of dogbleep -- typical bleepin' new bleepy bleeped-up bleep bleep which you can bleep up your bleepin' bleep, and if anyone disagrees with me, then they can go bleep their bleepin' lil' bleeps and bleep the bleep up!!!

I mean, who needs a vocabulary or a civilized comprehension of language anymore when everything can be reduced to bleepin' bleeps, all of ya bleepin' bleepers! So, bleep off, and just go bleep yourselves cause you ain't bleep, and furthermore, just bleeep blbeep bleaapee a bleap bleat bleap jeep bleeep apapeaap epepepppeeeppepepepableep attatatatatpeetpeatpeat pleet pleat bleat plebe pleep peep beep bleep first amendment aclu bleepin' censors! bleep the aclu johnny cochrane the lil' bleep is on the way - bleeep bleep that bleep - and if the bleeped up piece of bleep fits then you must acquit, unless yer so bleepin' bleeped....

Heart: excuse me, but have you taken your prozac yet today, dear? care for a nice cuppa tea? just a moment, please...

Head: bleep, I don't get it. what's your bleepin' point? duh...................................................................

TJ Daddy: Well, when you build a cedar lodge, and you have some main structural log beams supporting the roof of that lodge, and you also have a set schedule to follow, and there are building codes, architectural specifications and blueprints to abide by, well then you certainly don't want so much as one log overdue. I guess, right? ok...

Ch. Gasser: Now I grok your meta 4 -- like a misty morning dew on the freshly clearcut banks of Lake Quinault in the Olympic rainforest. Thanks bigtime for bleepin' your own bleepin' ex bleeps! Y'know, m. and I love the smell of bleepin' chainsaws in the morning!...

ex-bleep: stickin' up and givin' special rights to the bleepin' bleeps now, huh? well, i'm outa here - hasta la vista!

Ref: sheesh.... ya just can win fer loosin'!

Head: yer so bleepin' bleeped! bleep off!

Heart: c'mon, can't we all just git along?!...

[da capo al coda]

Police and Parentals,

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 03:23:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: such
Subject: **BEST OF FORUM*** ABSOLUTELY
Message:
Such me literary friend,

You've done in again.

Irish spring: (high, pipsqueaky voice) Manly, but I like it too.

Heart: huh

Head: bleep

Body: clean

--f

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:16:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: I finally grokked you, Such: Tristram Shandy
Message:
I'll have to go back and read again. You're a gem.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 20:55:05 (GMT)
From: TJ [via such]
Email: None
To: PatC + Maria Cosway et al
Subject: heaven smitten/possibility to trial on another pt.
Message:
The Letters of Thomas Jefferson: 1743-1826
DIALOGUE BETWEEN MY HEAD & MY HEART'  
-----------------------------------------------------------------
To Maria Cosway Paris, October 12, 1786
-----------------------------------------------------------------

http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl50.htm

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 21:02:45 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: TJ [via such]
Subject: How sweet, swami, to link my name with Cosway
Message:
Maria was TJ's real guru. I will bookmark the link and read it later. Right now the dogs are hounding me for a walk.
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:19:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: such
Subject: This is bleeping funny
Message:
bleep bleep. Did you use a bleepelizer?
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Date: Tues, Jul 03, 2001 at 07:36:48 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Yeah,every time I bleep up,it bleeps the bleep!
Message:
Yeah,every time I bleep up,it bleeps the bleep! -- almost like it's lookin' out 4 me -- must be my garden angle, or somepin,,,waddya tink? go figure...

dungi rules > apply: acquire Hope -- all ye who enter here.

hey, once you been dungi beetle, the only way is Up -- so, groove with it, babee! enjoying life w/o the possibility of gnaw ledge or participation in the plenitude of googoo games, and boats, and planes -- which will only cause panic attack or transport one back to zombie phlegmie blain and just make one's mind insane.

yep, i got such appweciation dese days - yaya - suchabonanza of life's energy: Bum diddy dum diddy dum diddy dum diddy nannnnn zzzza.

Peace and lentils,

ye ol' dungi matey

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Date: Wed, Jul 04, 2001 at 05:57:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Dang, I've got gnaw ledge
Message:
Don't jump! Don't jump!

--f

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:35:15 (GMT)
From: Marolyn Kyntyre
Email: None
To: Patrick Condom esq
Subject: I'm an ex-premie according to Salam, my new God
Message:
Sorry, our scintilating verbal exchange was about to go offline so I posted my reply here.

Very true Pat, I'm not a moralist, gave it up the first time I got caught shoplifting and received the biggest bollocking load of bullshit in the known northern hemisphere. From then on I got real good at the game. The British teaching morals? What a very peculiar thought.

How many times to I have to tell you why I'm here? DOH!
The reason I'm here is that RIGHT NOW I am writing to someone who I would no doubt (in me anyway) have a bloody great time sinking a few cold ones down the local pub with. It brings me pleasure to make someone feel good and appreciated! Also to challenge ignorance or stupidity when it rears its dumb ass. But you're right, I socialise and do other things in other places, so why on FV? Guess I'm trying to convert you back to GooGujisji (shit - I'm finished now).

For instance , it really saddens me when I read you say...
'You and I would have nothing to argue about if he came straight out and said he has learned and that he was mistaken when he first came to the west and that he has adapted his rhetoric to western culture but that his message is still the same:'

You know why I get sad about that? Because these days he is saying exactly that, in many different ways. Ok he doesn't say 'I Was Mistaken' because he wasn't, he was a young kid getting to know the western world and it's most peculiar ways.

Pat, you and I have NOTHING real to argue about. THAT is my whole argument which I'm arguing with you arguing about.
(work that weird logic out, and I'm not even stoned!)

I noticed Salam put MY NAME ON THE EX-PREMIE LIST on his website. (It's well put together S)
Do I have any legal recourse? Jim, come here immediately, this could net me millions in litigation slush!
Things have gone insane, frantic friends are emailing and phoning now saying 'have you really left?'

I say No, I just ran out of money

Marolyn - too upset to go on

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:51:07 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Marolyn Kyntyre
Subject: Dear Ms Kyntyre
Message:
At least you didn't call me Pat Colon and go on about my sexual proclivities as one nasty premie once did. I've really tried so hard to pick a fight with you but you are too damned funny. Now I see that you are a Brit and that explains it all for me. You guys turn everything into a joke.

Okay, so His Holeyness has admitted that he has ''evolved'' from being perfect into being more perfect. But he is still saying some pretty heavy stuff like: ''In the history of the human race there has never been one person who has saved themselves. You need the Master to save you.'' Rev Rawat, Fiji, 2000.

Now that's some heavy juju, darling.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 15:29:01 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat the neon light
Message:
Just out of couriousity, who is this woman you're talking too and why am I here god?
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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 18:20:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: The answer has always been 42, Salam
Message:
It answers all the mysteries of the universe.
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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 16:19:18 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Comments, Please
Message:
This is a repost from last Saturday, June 23, of a post by Deborah. The thread was called 'Rawat statements can't bear logical scrutiny' and was started by Henry. I've included the relevent posts from the thread.

'Rawat statements can't bear logical scrutiny' by Henry

Got a hold of a slippery subject and need your assistance.
Let me try to subject a Rawatian statement, such as “I declare I will establish Peace in this world!” (Peace Bomb) to logical analysis, and see what results.

I will assume that if the statement is uttered in a public setting, then it is using the meanings (denotations and connotations) conventionally understood by most people. Sounds like stopping wars, bringing about ceasefires, etc., doesn’t it?

If we assume the statement is a metaphor, or in a secret code, then who is to decipher it? I remember rationalizing the above statement years ago, as “he meant he would establish inner peace, or a way to access inner peace.” That didn’t fly too well with the aspirant I was talking to.

If we cannot easily decipher these statements, then it looks as if Rawat is giving his own meanings to words. This brings us back to Lewis Carroll’s 'Alice in Wonderland': ‘When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.’

Other possibilities:
1. He is lying.
2. He is posturing or play-acting (deceiving us to sound like something he is not).
3. He is manipulating or teasing the emotions (as charismatic orators do) to bring the audience to the emotional state he desires. This is analogous to the salesperson who will tell the customer anything in order to get the sale, or to the seducer who will say whatever it takes to get the seducee into bed.
4. He is not responsible for his utterances (talking under the influence of alcohol or drugs, channeling “somebody else,” or talking like someone who is mentally ill).

Both Occidental and Oriental systems of law and business are founded on the premise that one takes responsibility for one’s words, fulfills promises, and does not lie.

As a human being, a public figure, and a leader, Rawat needs to take responsibility for his words. Why then, did his organization (EV) make legal efforts to shut down the ex-premie sites that displayed his past statements?

Conclusions:
1. One cannot trust Rawat statements to mean what they appear to mean.
2. Rawat is unwilling to take responsibility for his words.
3. Rawat is not concerned about the truth-value of his words.

What did I leave out?
Thanks,
Henry

'M is a school dropout at 6th grade level' by Wildflower

You think maybe they taught logic in his Catholic elementary school?

'M is a school dropout at 6th grade level' by Steve Quint

With a devout Hindu mother, a devout guru worshipping guru father and a devout Catholic school education it's no wonder he was drowning in confusion when he became 'master' (???) at the age of eight. He was obviously a perfect puppet for whoever was pulling his strings.
Steve

'M not just a high-school dropout' by Deborah

yes Steve...but he didn't stay 8. That's the problem. He is 43 and surrounded by some pretty business savvy devotees.

I was doing service at the International Instructors Conference in 1988 (?) and got to sit in and listen to M as he was coaching the prems to be more confident and wordly in business.

One of the sleek little euphorisms he used was:

'First you grab them by the balls, then their head and their heart will follow.'

This impressed me at the time because i thought most prems were socially disfunctional and not unlike many artists, unsophisticated in the real business world.

M was in full charge at this training. He was smug-although at the time, it was a turn on-he was precise, and he was sleek.

It's time for him to fess'up. How much longer can he go on?

I invite comments on these posts, in particular the quote in bold about 'First you grab them by the balls, then their head and their heart will follow'.

Is it plausible that Hahasludgy really sais this? If so, what did he mean?

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:05:35 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Comments, Please
Message:
I take this stuff very seriously.

'Balls' in the slang sense of the word means courage most commonly in the dictionaries I've checked.

Here's the relevant entry from the OED:

d pl. Courage, determination; (manly) power or strength; masculinity. Cf. ballsy a. and cojones. slang (chiefly U.S.).

[1928 D. H. Lawrence Lady Chatterley's Lover xiv. 236 You say a man's got no brain, when he's a fool... And when he's got none of that spunky wild bit of a man in him, you say he's got no balls. When he's sort of tame. ] 1958 in Wentworth & Flexner Dict. Amer. Slang (1960) 17/1 (oral) That copy is too weak. Rewrite it and put balls on it! 1968 Internat. Times 5 Jan. 5/1 The castrated version of Olympia Press which was for a time published in England has gone..sadly..for even that watered down stuff, all promise and no balls..was better than..third rate mimeographed merde. 1970 Daily Tel. (Colour Suppl.) 15 May 35/4 [American loq.] Maggie's no mop..she's got more balls than a Christmas tree. 1979 Tucson Mag. Jan. 29/3, I told him I just can't do it that way... I suppose it took balls, but it is no more balls than anyone should have for themselves. 1984 M. Amis Money 315 Just keeping a handhold and staying where you are,..even that takes tons of balls.

So if Deborah's report is correct, Hahasludgy aimed and taught people to attack his followers' courage, determination and strength. How did he do this? By claiming he had the 'keys' to heaven. Pretty strong assertion, innit.

Bollocks.

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:23:50 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Nuts
Message:
JHB was almost right, only he's a little too nice to grasp the full meaning. I can help, though.

First you get 'em by the balls, then their hearts and minds will follow is used in a couple of contexts:

a) by a gold-digger such as some of us can only imagine the young Mrs Rawat to have been. In this case its sexual innuendo is clear. You can fuck a man so silly he thinks he loves you. (sorry guys, but hey! you know it's true...)

b) In a business or political situation such as the old fat Mr Rawat used it, it means establish your absolute power, then the mugs will believe in you.

Imagine someone does have your nuts firmly in their vice-like grip... you could easily learn gratitude they don't squeeze as often or as hard as they could, right? Might even grow to like them for not hurting you... They have the power but are so-o-o merciful, you see.

The trouble with this bully-boy theory of persuasion is simple. You can fool some of the people all of the time; or all of the people some of the time. But you can't fool all of the people all of the time

Which category do you think CHARLES GLASSER is in?

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 17:24:39 (GMT)
From: Sonny G
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: For heaven's sake man!
Message:
You ask...'I invite comments on these posts, in particular the quote in bold about 'First you grab them by the balls, then their head and their heart will follow'.

You don't know what that means?

Back to high school with you chum.


it means.....

WAKE THE FUCK UP AND LISTEN TO ME I'M FOR REAL!!!

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 17:39:17 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sonny G
Subject: No it doesn't
Message:
No it doesn't. It means once you have established a means of control, persuasion is easier.

One of this forum's strengths is that we value clear communication. So we often challenge attempts to change the meaning of words. It's impossible for any of us to clarify with Maharaji what he meant when he said this, so we have to rely on established meaning within the language and culture we live in.

Don't you agree?

John.

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 17:36:41 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Sonny G
Subject: Hi Sonny
Message:
Are you related to Kenny G or Boney M?

Steve

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 16:02:11 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Do premies 'sponsor' people who want to receive K?
Message:
I got an e-mail from someone asking me this question. Did not know how to answer it. Looks like a premie wants to convert someone to the straight and narrow.

I know that premies are not clear and straight forward with their relation with other people when it come to G & K. They will invite anyone to a Video presentation claiming that it's an introduction with no hassles, but in the back of their heads their aim is to convert the person and get him to recieve k. I can't think of the right world, something about trying to change someone's religion or belif. Maybe someone can answerr this better.

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 18:47:12 (GMT)
From: MK
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Don't need to, it's free
Message:

Your site's great S but the pages scroll down a bit far don't you think?

love from Marolyn, the latest 'ex' it seems

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 04:47:12 (GMT)
From: Salm
Email: None
To: MK
Subject: Don't need to, it's free
Message:
MK,

I thought to make something clear about the list of names on my site. first the site is not mine. there are few people helping. Second I did not prepare the list of names. Someone else did, all I did is to place on the page.

to tell you the truth, I don't even know who you are. you could be the missing link as far as am concerned. I did remove your name seeing you are are grumpy and crabby about it. Sorry I got you on EV's most wanted list, but shit does happen.

So just for my own knowledge [not not that knowledge] who are if you don't mind telling me. Also thank you for promoting me to the status of god, I just made few universes, it's fun.

Salam with red eyes because he is staring at the computer all night.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 04:57:40 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salm
Subject: Oh, and
Message:
if you want you name back it's gonna cost you 50,000 dollers, that's only to cover the adminstration fees. The rest is free.
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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 15:52:15 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Where is this Lifes Great forum
Message:
I couldn't find it last night. Too bad, besides here, it's the only online free speech that premies get, but I could not find it.

Oh well. Life's Grate. And I am so Grateful.

Carl reminded me of a little insane and cynical poem my friend and I used to say in our Bhole Ji's band monmotmania when we couldn't stand bliss that was thrown our way by the premies:

I'm so blissed out and happy
I feel so gay and snappy
There's an ice cream stand on every corner
and lollypops in all my pockets
I'm SO BLISSED OUT.'

We were usually screaming by the end. Whenever we bumped into premies they tried so hard to be nice to us and get us to come back to the fold. Some were genuine nice people and old friends--some were undead bliss zombies. It worked. Just like the night of the living dead. I spent too much time with them and became undead in the mid 70s till I woke up in the mid 80s. By then the love bites from the zombies didn't work. I was free!

--f

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 16:28:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: A pat on the head for CD...
Message:
When I first posted on 'Life's Great', the post was immediately deleted. This was awhile back. Since this was a premie site and they clearly didn't want ex-premies posting, I stayed away thereafter.

However, looking in this week, not only do I see many exes posting there, I also see Jim's post about Charles Unmentionable has NOT been removed - at the same time as Joe was being rebuked for mentioning his name on this forum.

Funny old world, heh?

Anyway, provided CD continues this trend towards open, uncensored discussion, it can only serve the greater interests of truth.

Well done, Chris.

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Date: Mon, Jul 02, 2001 at 03:44:32 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: A pat on the head for CD...oh yes
Message:
I got slagged off by an anonymouse over there trying to discredit me in the eyes of the premies and Chris stuck up for (as did four other premies) and even offered to delete the posts. I decided not to go back to LG because I didn't feel like dealing with anonymous insults but Chris emailed and told me I was welcome back. He is a good guy. Thanks Chris.
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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 16:07:51 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Once Again, Look above
Message:
There is a link to 'Other Forums and Sites', a bit cryptic I know, but the best we could do on our resources.

Forum Admin happy to answer the simple questions

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Date: Sun, Jul 01, 2001 at 16:03:47 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: here ye go
Message:
http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum
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