Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Jul 28, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Posted at CT's request...enjoy -:- Cult of the US Marines -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 02:51:49 (EDT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Hymn..Hymn...Fuck Him -:- Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 19:26:50 (EDT)
__ don puerco -:- Re: Cult of the US Marines -:- Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 07:22:14 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- military cult - responded at LG [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 15:08:25 (EDT)

Deborah -:- Can you please email me -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 19:46:42 (EDT)
__ me again... -:- Re: Above message for Disculta -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:01:07 (EDT)

AJW -:- Brits, set those video recorders. -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:11:51 (EDT)
__ magiclara -:- Re: Brits, set those video recorders. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:50:01 (EDT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Hi Anth -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:42:24 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Not God, Greater than God. -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 15:16:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Hey, Anth, when you say... -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 15:32:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- What Anth means... -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:50:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Don't forget. -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:49:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Country matters or inter-species shagging (ot) -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 19:02:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Now you're talking John. (nt ot ott) -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 19:10:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Actually yes! -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 19:26:58 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- Re: Brits, set those video recorders. -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:17:59 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- UK / US VCRs are not compatible [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:56:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- oh and copyright issues -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 19:05:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- True, but..... -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:02:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Thanks, PAL -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:09:28 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- I'm with stupid -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 15:01:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: I'm with stupid -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:01:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ oops, me again -:- Re: I'm with stupid -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:03:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Yeah, them casual 'gods' LOL [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:23:55 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- That's right Selene. -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:23:15 (EDT)

swami j. suchabanana -:- 4-PART GURU EXPOSE:CHEATANANANDA -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 13:32:37 (EDT)
__ Disculta -:- Re: 4-PART GURU EXPOSE:CHEATANANANDA -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:01:04 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: **Best of Forum** -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:20:51 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- He he 'guru gult' nt -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:01:44 (EDT)

Way -:- Question to Abi or Anth -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:57:17 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- an answer -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 22:50:20 (EDT)
__ __ More Info -:- Balou's Brother -:- Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 18:33:59 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- Thanks so much, Abi -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 10:53:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks so much, Abi -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 11:51:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- OOPS! Posted twice, sorry -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 11:52:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks so much, Abi -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 11:51:00 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- Synopsis -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 00:10:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Synopsis -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 16:29:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- a decent person -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 08:22:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Action was taken. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:03:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Action was taken. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 16:35:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- sick feeling -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 07:51:21 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Question to Abi or Anth -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:28:23 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- To Deborah -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:34:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: To Deborah -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:05:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: To Deborah -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:16:32 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Re: Question to Abi or Anth -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:05:43 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- New question to Anth -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:54:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Answer for Way, (J-M, m'aides stp) -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 15:06:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'They knew for years' - link lower down.. -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:37:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- time sequence is important -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:29:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- I want to add... -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:44:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- something else -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 22:59:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Nothing has changed Abi. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:08:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Nothing has changed Abi. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 07:49:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- I found the date of Jagdeo's 'restrictions' -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:29:13 (EDT)
__ la-ex -:- Re: Question to Abi or Anth -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 12:17:44 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Charanand, the Jerk -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 15:00:21 (EDT)

Nigel -:- Passing Through – please define your terms… -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:25:47 (EDT)
__ Passing Through -:- Definitey NIgel -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:42:06 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- You argument dude is unreal! -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 08:52:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ Passing Through -:- Yo dude! -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:30:39 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- mentally unstable, depressed, acid head -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:11:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Passing Through -:- To AJW -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:38:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Didn't we all PT. -:- Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 19:50:40 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- *** J-M - Best of Forum!!! *** -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:08:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- My favorite bit -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:15:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- My favorite bit -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:43:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Passing Through -:- Gee JHB, where have you been.. -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:38:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Gee PT, where have you been.. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 16:48:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Read it again Deborah -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:52:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Think again PT -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 21:40:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- True (sadly) and he never answered the question... -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:28:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Nigel corrected -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:27:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'clear' or 'clean' - Q still unanswered -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 02:52:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- ''clear up'. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:07:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: ''clear up'. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:48:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- What Maharaji said does matter -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:15:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill-jeeze pt, as if feeling your breath -:- negates all other factors. [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:40:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- And finally bill -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:49:15 (EDT)

~)Catweasel ~) -:- And the Police and I are VERY close -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:19:32 (EDT)
__ such -:- Cat,did you show 'em da baseball bat? [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 13:29:24 (EDT)
__ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Cat,did you show 'em da baseball bat? -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:49:00 (EDT)

Catweasel -:- Who I am( NOT) -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 10:46:02 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Who gives a shit anyway? (nt) -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:17:11 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- Re: Who I am( NOT) -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:55:42 (EDT)
__ __ Catweasel -:- That Word -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:32:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: That Word -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 00:09:07 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Who you are.... -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:21:46 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- But Cynthia -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 00:19:34 (EDT)
__ __ CW -:- Who ,Who............... -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:38:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Who ,Who............... -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 12:17:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- You love to bait folks, don't you? -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 09:26:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ CW -:- You think? -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 11:29:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: You think? -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 12:09:03 (EDT)

Steve Quint -:- Hope -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 07:42:50 (EDT)

Carlos -:- My reply to an eMail from Jim Heller -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 06:25:43 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- Here's Jim's email to Carlos -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 13:53:06 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- nice to read a Jim post [nt] -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:43:17 (EDT)
__ __ Carlos -:- I agree it's fair, Nigel. I didn't wish -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:31:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: I agree it's fair, Nigel. I didn't wish -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:19:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- As a 1/2 Puerto Rican, from my name, -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:49:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What the FUCK are you talking about? -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:17:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I can believe in something without a -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 02:09:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Sugar Pie Honey Bunch. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:51:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Lookout! It's a Believer! -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 04:49:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I did not set out guidelines to debate,; -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 19:17:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dave -:- It won't work -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:58:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: It won't work -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:18:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- How about this, Dave? -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:22:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dave -:- True -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:14:45 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Thanks, Nigel (and Jim) -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:24:20 (EDT)
__ Moley -:- Carlos - aren't you meditating at the moment? -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 09:12:16 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Get a Fucking Life Dickhead. -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 08:45:43 (EDT)
__ __ Carlos -:- Anth, you've never played the 'better -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:43:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- You don't get it Carlos. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:16:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Your post makes a lot of sense, Anth. -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 19:25:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Advice on how to deal with Jim. -:- Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 19:59:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Good advice, Anth. Don't know if I'm capable -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:25:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- You gave way 10 keys at a peace demo?? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:00:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hi Carlos -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:57:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I wish Jim would participate, in a -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:26:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: I wish Jim would participate, in a -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:43:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Happy, productive studying, Deb. No, I do -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:59:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Happy, productive studying, Deb. No, I do -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:13:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I meant you were one of his defenders -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 02:23:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hey Carlos... -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:53:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: I meant you were one of his defenders -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:32:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- If I was Jewish and he'd talked about -:- Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 19:44:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Carlos -:- FA, my 2 replies disapeared and then -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:22:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I've been away for over 8 hours -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:48:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Mind you -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:51:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Don't see how they could show after I -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:08:06 (EDT)

la-ex -:- possible shift in strategies? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 23:01:34 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- Re: possible shift in strategies? -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:01:51 (EDT)
__ Way -:- Re: possible shift in strategies? -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 12:02:07 (EDT)
__ such -:- a news/publicity committee -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 06:18:42 (EDT)
__ __ dv -:- Count me in for the street warfare(nt). -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 08:07:04 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: possible shift in strategies? -:- Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 23:20:50 (EDT)
__ __ la-ex -:- continuing strategies... -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:37:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: continuing strategies... -:- Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:17:24 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 02:51:49 (EDT)
From: Posted at CT's request...enjoy
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Cult of the US Marines
Message:
You know Such, I wanted to post a funny dig at the French and John Michelle but if you know semper-fi, then maybe you can dig this.
OK, here's the situation: I was in a cult called the Marines, we were unable to leave, or face the brig. Bootcamp was torture, all the way around. We had doctrines, such as the 'chain of command' The prez was Chief honcho. Enlisted men didn't get paid shit, we were turned into mercenaries, shoving our doctrine (which was drilled into us) of Democracy down the throats of farmers and peasants, most of which didn't speak our language. The cult gave us 12 weeks in bootcamp where we were tortured in a number of ways by cult leaders called drill instructors. During this time we were forcibly seperated from our familys, had weapons thrown at us and told that they were made for one reason, to kill. We were taught umpteen ways to kill, including the naked stranglehold, which can snap a neck in less than 2 seconds. We were taught the elemnt of surprise, where we learned to kill the enemy before the ememy kills you. We were given all kinds of weapons training. M-16's, 3.5 rocket launchers, M-60 machine guns, grenades, k-bar knives, 45's etc. I was trained in radios for 3 months, taught how to call in air strikes, napalm, naval gun fire, re-enforcements. Learned how to use all this stuff by setting up ambushes, avoid punge-pits, detect mines, clean all these great cult toys and keep them clean. Oh and don't forget hand to hand combat. Went on 20 mile forced marches with full packs, to build our bodies for the cult, told that Marines bring back their dead, the Army doesn't (pitting one cult against the other) Then we were all ordered to get on a plane, go tens of thousands of miles to a foreign country
with people we didn't know but that's ok because the cult rep said it was and we called everybody Sir, from private on up for 5 months in the cult indoctrination process. Keep in mind that most of the new cult recruits were around 18 years old, except those that got drafted into the cult. Some of them had families and were, say, top age 23. We learned to defy pain and that pain was good. We learned to take orders and think not. We learned cult speak and we learned that we were no longer individuals, we were part of the Green Machine. Part of the indoctrination was that if we could not make it in the Marines, we would never make it in life. We were told that there was an island where Marines with syphallis, who had made it with 'gook' girls were taken to and never allowed to return to the states. We were ordered to kill..kill..kill, everything that moved at night. And so on and so on.

So France, you self-righteous authoritarian knowitalls, with your new anti-cult law, don't ever ask our Cult, the US Marines to ever come to your rescue again, the next time you are invaded by a Hitler 3rd Reich cult, and you come crying to the US we won't come because you won't allow cult members into your country. 'Once a Marine, always a Marine. OH NO, I'LL NEVER GET OUT OF THE CULT...

Surprise, Maharaji to the rescue. Surprise, knowledge to the rescue. Surprise, premie love to the rescue. Surprise, I haven't been in a cult since 1971 when my hitch ended. Cult, what cult? Those who really believe that I would fall for another cult, ain't seen nothin

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Date: Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 19:26:50 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Posted at CT's request...enjoy
Subject: Hymn..Hymn...Fuck Him
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 07:22:14 (EDT)
From: don puerco
Email: None
To: Posted at CT's request...enjoy
Subject: Re: Cult of the US Marines
Message:
so far, no responses to this post..wonder why ???
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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 15:08:25 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: don puerco
Subject: military cult - responded at LG [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 19:46:42 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: All
Subject: Can you please email me
Message:
Hi Disculta,

I want to try and dig up names of Jagdeo's paedophile accusations in Miami in early '80's. I know exactly who to ask.

Maybe you can help?

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:01:07 (EDT)
From: me again...
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Above message for Disculta
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:11:51 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Brits, set those video recorders.
Message:
Hi,

I just noticed that very late tonight on Channel 4, (3.35 am, 25 July) they're showing a repeat of the documentary 'Far Out', with footage of Rawat at Millenium, (They have the him sitting on his throne, with big neon lights spelling 'GOD', and an arrow pointing down at him.) There's also an interview with Syd, an ex-premie who used to post on Forum 4.

So set your videos and have a laugh. It's an excellent programme.

EV UK totally fucked up when the programme was made. They refused to talk to the programme makers, who were more than fair with the other cults like the Hare Krishnas, and allowed them to have their fairly unedited say.

There was no-one to defend Rawat however, so only the Exes viewpoint is given.

Anth the goggle-eyed.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:50:01 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Brits, set those video recorders.
Message:
I have taped the programme LOL I can make a copy and send it to someone so that you can have it converted. Where shall I send it?
Bye Magiclara
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:42:24 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Hi Anth
Message:
Hi Anth. I'm really starting to believe that Guru Hahamamamiapizzaria Jeez really didn't know what the fuck was going on when Mahatmas made 'God' signs pointing at him. However, the law of Karma says that if you allow your assistants to go around for year after year calling you god in songs, signs, words, magazines, newspapers, leaflets, posters, t-shirts and assorted other media, you're responsible. A master who's responsible for nothing may be master of nothing except his own destiny. In fisherman's terms, if you're good at baiting a fishing hook, you're a master baiter.

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 15:16:12 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Not God, Greater than God.
Message:
Hi Steve,

The funny thing is, most premies believed Rawat was 'Greater than God'. And lots of them still do.

All this shite comes from a book of Hindu mumbo-jumbo, called Hans Yog Prakash. It often quoted by the Captain, and there are extracts on EPO.

It's full of stuff telling us why Guru is actually Greater than God, more important than your parents etc.

Claiming 'Rawat is not God', is merely a smokescreen to throw us off the scent. Really the Captain is Greater than God.

As it says in the back of the early cult publication, 'Eternal is he. Eternal is his knowledge.',

'I found the greatest of fortunes when I met my Satguru.
All my troubles and sorrows disappeared from my mind.
He has set me free from the bondage of life and death, and saved me from the cycle of rebirth.
Truly his importance is greater than God.'

There's also my old poster on EPO, 'God is Great, but Guru is Greater.'

Only brain dead morons would deny stuff that's in print, on film, and in the memories of thousands of people who were there.

Anth, who has come with more power than ever before. Time is coming soon....

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 15:32:38 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hey, Anth, when you say...
Message:
that you have come with more power than ever before,

'Anth, who has come with more power than ever before. Time is coming soon....' what exactly are you saying, here?

I mean, I don't want to miss the opportunity of a human lifetime, but perhaps you're talking about some tantric breakthrough. Please clarify.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:50:07 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: What Anth means...
Message:
Disculta,

When Anth says he has come with more power than ever before, he means that he has upgraded his computer from a 386SX to a 486/66.

John the computer expert.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:49:32 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Don't forget.
Message:
Disculta,

When Anth says he has come with more power than ever before, he means that he has upgraded his computer from a 386SX to a 486/66.

John the computer expert.


---

Don't forget the new batteries in my torch.

(Disculta, I was doing a parody on the Captains 'Peace Bomb' talk, when he very modestly said he had come with more power than Jesus and more power than Buddha, and was going to establish 'Peace on Earth'. He even said the lion would lay down with the lamb.
And the bit about 'Time is coming soon..' is a quote from a talk the Captain gave in Colorado, when he told us, 'Time is coming soon, when there will be no more guns'.

He really believed he was going to establish 'Peace on Earth' in those days- before he got into fast cars, private jets, pissing it up on cognac and shagging his devotees.

Ah well, you can't win them all.

Anth, still waiting for the lion to shag the lamb (if it doesn't hurry up, I'll have to do it myself. Baaaaaaaah humbug.)

Disculta, the last two words are taken from Charles Dickens, 'Christmas Carol'.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 19:02:44 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Country matters or inter-species shagging (ot)
Message:
Two years ago, we had pigs, and my cousin's dog shagged one of the pigs. Now we have hens, cockerels and ducks. One of the cockerels regularly shags the female duck, although the other cockerel and the male duck object strongly. Is this evidence that peace is being established on earth?

John the understands the term country matters.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 19:10:04 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Now you're talking John. (nt ot ott)
Message:
Cock-a-doodle-doo.

got any photos?

Anth, time for bed.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 19:26:58 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Actually yes!
Message:
I have photos of the dog shagging the pig, which I was shocked to discover offended some friends of mine!

John the should also be in bed.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:17:59 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Brits, set those video recorders.
Message:
I guess he didn't notice the GOD word in neon and the arrow when he was never saying he was god. After all we have been told just recently by someone on here that M had little to do with much of the planning over the years.

If someone makes a copy for me I'll be happy to pay for tape, shipping.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:56:33 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: UK / US VCRs are not compatible [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 19:05:06 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: oh and copyright issues
Message:
I didn't mean it I dont' want it no no if you send me email asking where to send it I'll delete it. So ...

There I feel better now.

Selene learning slowly

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:02:37 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: True, but.....
Message:
True, but it doesn't cost that much to convert, and there are quite a few VCRs on the market that can play both.

John the European LOTU video converter

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:09:28 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks, PAL
Message:
That said, I'll pay for a copy and shipping to the colonies and forward it on to whomever.

Richard the NTSC

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 15:01:18 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I'm with stupid
Message:
I guess he didn't notice the GOD word in neon and the arrow when he was never saying he was god. After all we have been told just recently by someone on here that M had little to do with much of the planning over the years.

If someone makes a copy for me I'll be happy to pay for tape, shipping.


---

Sorry but this reminds me of a 'Quigman's' cartoon. Bob Quigman is wearing a shirt that say's 'I'm with Stupid' with an arrow pointing down (at himself).

Would anybody really be able to say that M couldn't read the word GOD, when even M's early satsangs went on about God, as well as the G-O-D concept, which meant generator, operator and destroyer (the Brahma Vishnu Shiva thing, though I'm not sure I've got them in the correct order). And tied to that, the words to Arti:

creator, preserver destroyer
bow their heads and pray to you
all bow and pray to you ...

or something like that. He knew full well what was up there. His whole shtick, ever since the early 70s was to say that he didn't say all those things, and that his devotees said them. Then he'd give these fire and brimstone satsangs (quoted many times on the various forums as well as in print materials I still have) that said how one should treat Guru Maharaji, and WHO Guru Maharaji was. Often examples of how he treated "his" GMJ, which was, of course, how we should view "our" GMJ. So if Guru Maharaji is blah, blah, blah, and he's Guru Maharaji, then 'I'm with Stupid' if I can't connect the dots.

M and his followers know quite a few mantras. When I start to hear them, I get very sleepy.

I'd love to see that tape too!

bests, Francesca

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:01:33 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: I'm with stupid
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:03:29 (EDT)
From: oops, me again
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: I'm with stupid
Message:
I love it when you said,

creator, preserver destroyer
bow their heads and pray to you
all bow and pray to you ...

or something like that.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:23:55 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: oops, me again
Subject: Yeah, them casual 'gods' LOL [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:23:15 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: That's right Selene.
Message:
I guess he didn't notice the GOD word in neon and the arrow when he was never saying he was god. After all we have been told just recently by someone on here that M had little to do with much of the planning over the years.

If someone makes a copy for me I'll be happy to pay for tape, shipping.


---

and when he put on his Krisha suit, he thought he was just playing Santa Claus at a childrens party.

They also did a book of the series. There's a copy in my basement in London.

We don't have a video down here, or I'd do one for you.

Anth, the ex-devotee of Father Christmas.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 13:32:37 (EDT)
From: swami j. suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 4-PART GURU EXPOSE:CHEATANANANDA
Message:
SWAMI CHEATANANANDA -- GURU EXPOSE SERIES:

This four-part series appears online at:

r.e. securing a spiritual empire:

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/news/oregonian/guru_day1.frame

r.e. 11 women charge guru with sexual abuse, abuse of power:

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/news/oregonian/guru_day2.frame%00

r.e.the guru money ties :

http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=ex-premieforum&id=12946.537843860200

r.e. disciples leave cult:

http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=ex-premieforum&id=13679.4548810753502

'I bust my guts out for people who mostly wonder, you know, 'What in the hell happened?' and 'What's that son of a bitch trying to get from me anyway?' Well, the truth of the matter is, I'm after your money. (laughter from audience). Or, I could be after your bodies. (more laughter). -- Chetanananda, during a talk in February 1998

'If you're going to do any kind of deep experiencing . . . the first thing you're going to have to get through is that piece of plastic in your head called the mind. It's just Saran Wrap.' -- Chetanananda, May 11, 1988

Former disciples say the sexual conduct described by the 11 women affected a wider circle of people. 'Now personally I think celibacy is total baloney. In India it's one thing. But here it's something totally different.' -- Chetanananda, April 1992 tape-of-the-month.

'Spiritual growth is about surrender, not about understanding. Whenever that part of you that wants to figure out, or know why, or what for, or so on or so forth, kicks in, kick it out. Kick it out.' -- Chetanananda, in an April 21, 1993, talk

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INTERNET CULT DEBATE
see this website: www.leaving-nityananda-institute.org

On Dec. 21, 2000, an e-mail from an outsider alerted W. to a new Web site, launching a battle that continues. Former members had created the site -- www.leaving-nityananda-institute.org -- that featured an anonymous statement about Chetanananda by 11 people.

'He told us the only thing we had to surrender was our tensions,' the open letter said, 'when in fact we were expected to surrender everything to his program: our families, our girlfriends if we were men, our bodies if we were women . . . our money, our former religious beliefs and morals, and our sense of belonging in the society at large.'

Soon afterward, institute members registered Internet domain names, such as www.leaving-nityananda-institute.com, resembling that of the former members' site, to steer Web surfers their way. The sites accused the former members of using hate-group tactics to incite prejudice and intolerance.

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--

FEEDBACK LETTERS FROM THE GURU CULT EXPOSE:

I received an email from a friend who had been sharing a series of critical articles about swami chetanananda on the internet and had then read some feedback about the articles. One letter was written by someone who has done 25 years of counselling with survivors of closed groups:

'I found that whenever such a group finds itself being held accountable for its behaviors in the public media, the same denials, in literally the same words, are forthcoming.'

'We never did that, some mistakes were made, we don't do that anymore, these allegations are completely false, anyone is completely free to leave whenever they want; my critics are unspiritual, dedicated to destroying the truth, and their words cannot be given credence, and besides, there are just a few of them, and so on.'

'The people...who criticized the swami's program are neither mean-spirited nor weak personalities. Rather they are strong, intelligent people who in a moment of vulnerability were conned, like any of the rest of us could be.'

A 2nd letter I found on the internet today in response to the series was written by Melanie Rubin, who was a student at the ashram from 1985 to 1998.

Missing the message on quest for spirituality:
07/24/01 by MELANIE RUBIN

'Some people wonder whether I said this to defend Swami Chetanananda or justify my own participation in the community. Actually, I made this statement to address a gap I often perceive when I hear people discussing the ashram. I believe The Oregonian performed a valuable service in publishing the ashram series -- but the issue I hoped to address was largely missing.

Participating in community and having a structure for spiritual development in the ashram exacted an extremely high cost. Still, I think it's important to note that these aspects reflect values our society is desperately seeking and often not finding. I'm concerned that readers will see the ashram story only as something foreign and dangerous -- another example of a weird cult gone wrong -- and not look beyond the sensationalism to consider what relevance this story may have in their own lives.
From the articles, one might conclude that most students came to the ashram to escape a very disturbed past. Although this was true in many cases, my impression was that, overall, these new students were not more damaged than any cross-section of the same socio-economic group, since there's so much emotional, physical and sexual trauma throughout our culture. And many people came to the ashram seeking to meet the healthy human needs we're all after -- such as love, contact, security, fun, feeling special and valued and finding personal meaning.

So many people today feel lonely and disconnected in their families and communities. This happens everywhere -- with the middle school kids I've mentored recently; with friends who have the good jobs, homes, spouses and children often thought of as defining the American dream and with my mother, now a senior citizen struggling to find a place in a society that often overlooks the elderly.

So many people seem confused, wishing for something deeper in their lives, but they're not sure what. The fact that huge crowds came to see the Dalai Lama on his recent visit speaks to me of this craving.

It was the shared experience of community in the ashram that I found valuable -- of living, working, having fun, creating and building together, of having so much common experience over the course of years.

And I believe there is a value in having a life that creates space for inner reflection and spiritual pursuit. In our culture we move faster and faster past each other, trying to keep up with all the demands and information, trying to 'get ahead.' There's not much reinforcement, I find, for taking time every day to sit quietly and explore a deeper source of creativity and connection.
For me, the price of these benefits in the Rudrananda ashram was way too expensive and ultimately did not compensate for the abuse. Even surrounded by many people, I felt lonely because I was taught my questions were unacceptable and that I should not express my true thoughts or feelings. Even with daily meditation, I found it difficult to hear my own inner voice, competing as it was with the voice of the guru who I was told knew better than I did what was good for me.

But, to use an old cliche, I'm hoping readers will not 'throw the baby out with the bathwater.'

The bathwater is abuse on many levels, repression and turning one's power over to any other human being. But the baby is the need each one of us has to find community and a connection to spirit in our lives, however we choose to pursue these values.

I'm hoping readers will see the ashram story as yet another sign, beyond the violence occurring in high schools and the growing use of antidepressants, that we have to find new ways to meet these critical human needs, and, in so doing, begin to heal the disconnection, trauma and loneliness so common around us.'

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami j. suchabanana

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:01:04 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: swami j. suchabanana
Subject: Re: 4-PART GURU EXPOSE:CHEATANANANDA
Message:
Thanks Swamiji

I like this letter from Melanie a lot. I wish there were a cooler phrase than the cliche about babies and bathwater, but this is a major thing that I want to communicate almost every time I post.

My experience of life has been that things are very complex. It's not either/or, but both/and, in almost every situation. Sometimes it's right to embrace something as part of oneself rather than objectifying it and resisting it. At other times - perhaps a nanosecond later or perhaps a millimeter further - it's appropriate to objectify the thing and get rid of it or oppose it. And this can change and change. I continually experience that what I resist persists, even to the point of getting into complaining rants about the waiter or the phone company or whatever.

When people first leave a cult, it may be appropriate for them at first to be really negative and totally resist the whole experience in order to free themselves from it. Then there may be a phase where enough of you is out that you can calm down and evaluate a bit more clearly. 'Ah, I attracted this part of it because I was avoiding A or desiring B. This other part really does suck and I'm going to report it to the authorities. This part over here is great and I'm keeping it.' etc.

I never even remotely considered leaving my spiritual path when I left K and MJ. I did find more powerful meditational approaches than K, and I had had it with sitting still and meditating, I think, for life. But I have been continuing my explorations with great enjoyment and thrills ever since I left in 1984. And I also was absolutely determined not to lose the family feeling. In fact, I very quickly upgraded it, getting involved with various loose-knit communities that are so much healthier and more PERSONALLY supportive than a guru gult where all resources go into his psychic or physical coffers.

Just wanted to say this, because I feel that it can hardly be said enough. It's confusing waking up from years of not allowing one's innate wisdom to guide one. The last thing I think people need is to be dragged into a completely oppositional stance and held there by group pressure. It doesn't create the desired freedom to pick through the pieces and create whatever new reality one wants.

I put forth a strong intention for this forum to help people unravel the sensitive edge of their own transitions, with sensitivity, kindness and open-mindedness to all possibilities. Allowance is a really good word, too.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:20:51 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: **Best of Forum**
Message:
Thank you for your very uplifting post. I absolutely agree on every point you made.

It is one thing to gauge your relationship to Maha when you have not considered the implications. It is completely another thing to accept the circumstances and behave as if nothing happened.

I left around the time that you did and thoroughly enjoyed a growth in my spiritual experience. Slowly but surely I let go memories of Maha and the premies because my life was replaced with the rewarding and challenging experiences of everyday life. And not with a life that revolved around service to Maharaji.

He has gotten to a financial secure postion (assumedly, but knowing EV, maybe not) on the backs of trusting devotees. These were not students. I was a premie.

Releasing the belief system at the root, has indeed been a wicked experience but the rewards are exhilarating.

Premies attracted me to Maharaji, not Maharaji. If it wasn't for some of the sincerely beautiful experiences I would never have stayed.

Thanks again,

Deborah

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:01:44 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: He he 'guru gult' nt
Message:
agf
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:57:17 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Question to Abi or Anth
Message:
I'm reluctant to revisit this Jagdeo stuff again, but Passing Through's vapid remarks has made me wonder about one fact. I am not aware of what year Charnanand was first told by Abi's father about the abuse.

Passing Through is still maintaining that the known facts do not put any blame on Rawat. If it were known when Charnanand first knew about the situation, premies would have to acknowledge that Jagdeo was allowed to get away with his crimes, by Charnanand at least, and most probably by Rawat as well.

I don't think Charnanand's duplicity in this affair has been stressed enough. Charnanand is currently choosing who among the aspirants is ready to receive Knowledge. If aspirants knew that Charnanad helped hush up Jagdeo's paedophile activities, I don't think they would want to have anything to do with him.

It is disgusting that Jagdeo was still living in honor at the Delhi ashram in the late 1990's, but it is also objectionable that Rawat continues to use Charnanand as one of his major representatives.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 22:50:20 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: an answer
Message:
Dear Way,
my father told Charanand when he was visiting Perth, Western Australia in the mid 80s. If there is somesort of record of Charanands activities from the mid-80s then the year and month would be there. I think it was 86,87. I was in my late-teens and radically questioning Maharaji. My father, I guess, wanted to know why I wasn't the devoted premie I had been and so I told him. Charanand spent quite a bit of time with my father when he visited. My father also told another PAM during this time who apparently laughed in his face for some reason. The PAM was the brother of someone called Balou (?).The only feedback I got about this was a hand written card from Charanand. It was one of those golden Japanese print cards that had three panels and he'd written in a fountain pen all about meditating and elivating my soul so that I would know my own true Father. No mention of Jagdeo at all. I guess it was his way of saying that he was sorry. I kept it for years and threw it out after Susan was stonewalled by EV and Maharaji. I wish I'd kept it so that I could scan it and post it on EPO.

My father told Maharaji that Charanand was told and he also mentioned this to Dr Pascotto. Apparently Charanand has no recollection of being told. I think it must have made some sort of impact though because he wrote me that card.

But, horrible as the thought is, there is no doubt in my mind that people knew about Jagdeo for years before EPO made it public.

Apart from this, I told other people not connected to the cult about Jagdeo.

Charanand was meant to visit Perth this year after Amaroo. All the local premies were expecting him. I was hoping to talk to him about this issue. And asked EV Australia how to get in contact with him but apaprently he just cancelled his trip to Perth and vanished. It seems EV don't want me to talk to him.

I'm sure that someone in EV knows where Jagdeo has 'retired to'. I imagine that he feels no shame and has no regrets. Pedophiles don't easily acknowledge what they do and he was an arrogant creep.

On the pretext ot teaching me how to play chess once he gave me a lesson is being quite. He said that he was the white side because he was holy and enlightened and with Maharaji and I was the dark side because I was mind. He told me that his side would always defeat my side because the light was stronger than the dark. He was a pretty fightening man. I was only about nine at the time.

Amamzing that after all these years the same old creepy rhetoric is being used. EV tells me and my father that I am part of a dark international force and the EV and Maharaji are spreading light.

They are beyond the pale.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 18:33:59 (EDT)
From: More Info
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Balou's Brother
Message:
In your message you mentioned that a 'PAM' was told about Jagdeo's activities and he laughed in your father's face. If he is, as you say, the brother of Balou, then his name is Sury. The brothers lived for years in the Toronto ashram and Suri later in the Ottawa ashram, I lived with both of them at different times in both ashrams. The main memory I have of Sury is how, like clock-work, as soon as arti would finish and meditation began, his head would start nodding off and every once and a while he would jerk it back to attention and eventually people would have to prod him with baragons when he began snoring. Both were made initiators by m. Balou and Sury were shortened versions of their long Indian names, which have escaped me.
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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 10:53:00 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: wwilliam@kumc.edu
To: Abi
Subject: Thanks so much, Abi
Message:
Abi, and everyone,

Thank you, Abi, for continuing to add facts to what we know about this issue. The more we know, the worse it gets, and still premies like Passing Through just won't look at it realistically. I think we should continue to force the issue. The more information we gather, the more clarity there will be. And Rawat loves clarity, doesn't he!

I heard today by email from an ex-premie who lives nears Brisbane. Her ex-husband is a current PAM so she does not want me to post her name on this Forum. She says that Jagdeo toured Australia in 1988, and maybe a year or two later. (Email me, Abi, if you wish.)

So what we now know is that Charanand was told about Jagdeo's crimes by Abi's father in 1986 or 7. But many instructors already knew about the Jagdeo problem in 1983-5. But even after all these instructors knew about it, Jagdeo was touring Australia as late as 1988. He was not allowed to tour Europe or the US, but we have not been told who put these restrictions on him. Maharaji finally met with a family member of one of the victims in 1999, after the ex-premie website forced the issue out into the open.

Here is what Maharaji and Elan Vital want us to believe: Randy Prouty, Judy Osborne, and Charanand all have no recollection of being told about Jagdeo. Even though Charanand was directly told by Abi's father in a long conversation after which he wrote a satsang letter to Abi, still Charanand simply cannot remember any of this. The fact that he was informed that one of his fellow long-time mahatmas was a pedophile simply escapes his memory. Nobody ever told Maharaji about the Jagdeo problem at no time between 1975 through 1999. Somehow Jagdeo's activities were restricted without Maharaji's permission or even knowing about the restrictions. The most that Maharaji has ever done about the problem is to meet with Abi's father at Amaroo, and to turn his back on Jagdeo the last time he saw him. Turning one's back on a pedophile is a very effective thing to do, and Maharaji should be praised for knowing nothing about the situation for two decades and then doing virtually nothing about it once he finds out. Neither Maharaji nor anyone at Elan Vital have any idea where Jagdeo is now hiding out. If the ex-premies had not brought this issue to light, Jagdeo would still be a man of honor in Maharaji's ashram, his every whim being attended to by premies. Even though Charanand was told in 1986, he never informed Maharaji about the crimes. Evidently, Maharaji is not at all upset at Charanand for not informing him about this serious issue, because Charanand is still the top instructor who is now choosing which aspirants will receive the precious gift of life-long servitude to Rawat.

The above is the BEST scenario that premies can now make of the situation, but the obvious truth is many, many times worse. It is obvious that Rawat would have been informed about the dangerous activities of Jagdeo, because they would be dangerous to Rawat's success. If Rawat had not been informed by Charanand, he would have been furious with Charanand. Rawat has no doubt known about the Jagdeo problem since the late 70's. He has consistently chosen to keep Jagdeo as his devoted servant rather than lose his services. We can only imagine what has happened between Rawat and Jagdeo directly over the years. Rawat obviously cares only about his personality cult and will do anything to perpetrate it. He has instructed Judy, Randy, and Charanand to say that they remember nothing about the situation, even though that is patently absurd. Rawat and all those who serve him are doing everything they can to hush this problem up. They are doing absolutely nothing to compensate the victims or to properly deal with Jagdeo himself. They are all moral cowards, as is any and every premie who refuses to look at the truth.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 11:51:04 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Thanks so much, Abi
Message:
Dear Way,

That was a tremendous post.

Your comment:

'So what we now know is that Charanand was told about Jagdeo's crimes by Abi's father in 1986 or 7. But many instructors already knew about the Jagdeo problem in 1983-5. But even after all these instructors knew about it, Jagdeo was touring Australia as late as 1988. He was not allowed to tour Europe or the US, but we have not been told who put these restrictions on him. Maharaji finally met with a family member of one of the victims in 1999, after the ex-premie website forced the issue out into the open.'

My question is this: was Charanand at the instructors' meeting when so many instructors were discussing this in 1983-85? If he knew, I have no doubt he told Maharaji. It doesn't make sense that he wouldn't. I also maintain that Marolyn was told by Judy. I don't know how this could be proven, but if Marolyn did know, she must have also told Maharaji. This is a gut feeling I have because Judy was Marolyn's midwife, and it may have been a 'woman to woman' type of discussion. Just a speculation, but I have a hard time believing that Marolyn was left out of the loop on this.

Also, the BEST evidence IMHO, is the testimony of the victims. The Maharajism cult can put out all the smokescreens and obstructions, not to mention the harrassment to Abi's parents, but they cannot deny victim/survivors testimony. Children were hurt and Maharaji did nothing. And to think I once worshipped his ass!

It is vital to remember that Abi, Susan, and others, who currently feel too vulnerable to publicly tell about the abuse, are the one's who are telling the truth. Why would anyone make that up? Especially children so young?

Maharaji, et al, obviously have no problem lying. And I agree with you that if we persist, the cult will have to acknowledge the truth about who knew what when. I remember during the Watergate hearings, the word 'specificity' became so important because of the 'loss of memory' by the members of Nixon's administration who were actually lying in order to protect HIM. At the end of the whole mess, it was Nixon who was found to be guilty. The specifics of who knew what when became clear once a couple of people told the truth.

So, EV, PAMs, when are you going to look into your consciences and tell the truth? By protecting Maharaji, you are protecting a pedophile who was under his control. You want that on your life's resume? How could you lie about this, yet continue to harrass Abi through her parents? You call yourselves 'lovers?' You call yourselves searchers of truth? Shame on you all.

The politics of Watergate have reminded me of the politics of EV because of the PAMs who are so willing to lie. Yet, the Watergate thing pales in comparison to a grown man sexually abusing children in the context of the Maharajism cult.

I will never give up on this until that coward fesses up. Shame on Judy, Randy, Charanand, all the instructors who knew children were being severely wounded and did nothing. Especially shame on Maharaji for thinking only of himself and using his power over his cult members to cover up this heinous crime.

They are digging a hole of deception so large that I believe they will one day fall right into it and destroy themselves. We can only hope.

Meanwhile, my goal is to support the survivors as much as I can from afar. They deserve it after this awful behavior of someone who has said he is 'Greater than God.'

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 11:52:33 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: OOPS! Posted twice, sorry
Message:
I'm with stupid, too...
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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 11:51:00 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Thanks so much, Abi
Message:
Dear Way,

That was a tremendous post.

Your comment:

'So what we now know is that Charanand was told about Jagdeo's crimes by Abi's father in 1986 or 7. But many instructors already knew about the Jagdeo problem in 1983-5. But even after all these instructors knew about it, Jagdeo was touring Australia as late as 1988. He was not allowed to tour Europe or the US, but we have not been told who put these restrictions on him. Maharaji finally met with a family member of one of the victims in 1999, after the ex-premie website forced the issue out into the open.'

My question is this: was Charanand at the instructors' meeting when so many instructors were discussing this in 1983-85? If he knew, I have no doubt he told Maharaji. It doesn't make sense that he wouldn't. I also maintain that Marolyn was told by Judy. I don't know how this could be proven, but if Marolyn did know, she must have also told Maharaji. This is a gut feeling I have because Judy was Marolyn's midwife, and it may have been a 'woman to woman' type of discussion. Just a speculation, but I have a hard time believing that Marolyn was left out of the loop on this.

Also, the BEST evidence IMHO, is the testimony of the victims. The Maharajism cult can put out all the smokescreens and obstructions, not to mention the harrassment to Abi's parents, but they cannot deny victim/survivors testimony. Children were hurt and Maharaji did nothing. And to think I once worshipped his ass!

It is vital to remember that Abi, Susan, and others, who currently feel too vulnerable to publicly tell about the abuse, are the one's who are telling the truth. Why would anyone make that up? Especially children so young?

Maharaji, et al, obviously have no problem lying. And I agree with you that if we persist, the cult will have to acknowledge the truth about who knew what when. I remember during the Watergate hearings, the word 'specificity' became so important because of the 'loss of memory' by the members of Nixon's administration who were actually lying in order to protect HIM. At the end of the whole mess, it was Nixon who was found to be guilty. The specifics of who knew what when became clear once a couple of people told the truth.

So, EV, PAMs, when are you going to look into your consciences and tell the truth? By protecting Maharaji, you are protecting a pedophile who was under his control. You want that on your life's resume? How could you lie about this, yet continue to harrass Abi through her parents? You call yourselves 'lovers?' You call yourselves searchers of truth? Shame on you all.

The politics of Watergate have reminded me of the politics of EV because of the PAMs who are so willing to lie. Yet, the Watergate thing pales in comparison to a grown man sexually abusing children in the context of the Maharajism cult.

I will never give up on this until that coward fesses up. Shame on Judy, Randy, Charanand, all the instructors who knew children were being severely wounded and did nothing. Especially shame on Maharaji for thinking only of himself and using his power over his cult members to cover up this heinous crime.

They are digging a hole of deception so large that I believe they will one day fall right into it and destroy themselves. We can only hope.

Meanwhile, my goal is to support the survivors as much as I can from afar. They deserve it after this awful behavior of someone who has said he is 'Greater than God.'

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 00:10:54 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Synopsis
Message:
The general disbelief that Deborah describes in Miami would not be unique.
I'm sure many people would either not have believed it or not believed it enough to do anything about it.
From the posts in this thread it seems to me that once CharanAnand was informed some action was taken.
It would also seem probable that once Jagdeo was out of the way people would not think it necessary to inform M.
If Barni's comment is correct, that M said he didn't hear about until '99, I have no reason to disbelieve it.
No decent person will excuse what Jagdeo or any paedophile does.
PT
It is
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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 16:29:00 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Re: Synopsis
Message:
PT, there wasn't a disbelief at all. I believed it whole-heartedly and so did the premies I knew. I could see it in the eyes of the person telling me. This is not a joke. It is the cult-think that made us not deal with issue appropriately. It was the in-grained kernal of ultimate fuckin reality that Maha was the unapproachable SatGuru, Supreme Lord mentality, and how lucky, oh so lucky, weren't we fuckin lucky mind-fuck set that made us not deal with it head-on with Maha.

Please don't twist my words.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 08:22:04 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: a decent person
Message:
especially one who is apparently Enlightened and once felt comfortable being called The Lord of the Universe and even know has his feet kissed because he is so compassioant and aware would do everything he could to make sure that all of Jagdeo's victims were helped. A decent person would have the stregth and the courage to publically apologise to Jagdeo's victims. A decent person would admit that Jagdeo is a pedophile.

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:03:01 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Passing Through
Subject: Action was taken.
Message:
You say, 'From the posts in this thread it seems to me that once CharanAnand was informed some action was taken.'

When you say, 'action was taken', I presume you mean the letter of satsang that Gurucharanand sent to Abi. Fuck all else was done.

And the only 'action' that seems to happen when an instructor or official reports Jagdeo's paedophilia is that they have sudden 'memory loss' afterwards.

Get real Passing Through. Maharaji and cult officials knew what Jagdeo was up to for years and did nothing whatsoever about it.

And when we finally dragged the information into the open, the cult, and all its representatives have done nothing but lie, evade, throw up smokescreens, and generally behave in a despicable manner.

As a premie, you must be able to understand why nobody has anything on their agenda but protecting the Captain- who has also behaved despicably in this matter.

When I first wrote to Glen Whittaker about this, he said there had been an 'enquiry' about my allegations. He wrote to me saying,

'I am of course concerned that the allegations and your strength of belief being such that you have made this allegation publicly. As a result of this, I have conducted some enquiry but can find no evidence to substantiate the allegation, including any record of any contemporaneous or later complaint made by the alleged victim.'

The 'enquiry' ommitted to consult any of the victims, myself or my wife, who were both at Unity School Uk, responsible for the children in our care. Surprise surprise. They couldn't find any evidence.

According to Jethro, this conclusion was contradicted by Ron Jeaves, who took part in the enquiry. I know this because I spoke to two people he interviewed afterwards. Ron told Jethro that the results of the enquiry were damming (my own words, but perhaps Ron will enlighten us one day, instead of covering up for the cult paedophile.)

Anyway, Glen refused to release the results of the enquiry and later denied there had even been one.

There is plenty of evidence that Maharaji knew. Judy Osbourne spoke to Susan after she had told Maharaji about her complaint way back in the 80s or early 90s. Judy even told Susan what Maharaji said about it. Maharji also told Judy that he'd heard previous reports of Jagdeo.

Is this hard for you to swallow Passing Through? That your master could have known about it for so long?

Or maybe we're all lying.

Have you read the accounts and reports on EPO? If not, you should go and read them.

Quite honestly, I've read loads of posts like yours, and they give me a sick feeling in the stomach.

I bet you never thought your life would end up with you being in a cult, defending a paedophile and his master did you?

So, what evidence is there that Rawat knew before 1999?

Three instructors told him.

Other cult officials, national co-ordinators etc, discussed the paedophilia at internation cult conferences, and surely told the Captain.

You know how premies are scared to move without the Captain's authority don't you Passing Through? Is there anything you wouldn't do if the Captain called you up and asked you personally?

Answer my questions please. You ignored my post below.

Otherwise fuck off with your pathetic excuses. You're as bad as the rest of them.

Anth Ginn.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 16:35:56 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Action was taken.
Message:
Hi Anth,

By the way, has anyone ever checked Jagdeo's criminal background in India. Anyone with contacts?

Afterall, it was common knowledge that the other pot-smoking skirt-chasing Mahatma, I forget his name,(you know that guy who hollered the big Boli-shrees who made great Halva and had that wild moustache), well he was an ex-con before he came to AMERICA.
Who remember's his name?

Maha rode into town with on a bandwagon of non-holiness.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 07:51:21 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: sick feeling
Message:
Anth,

bet he doesn't have the courage to reply.

I am sickened by all of them. I am continually disgusted at their methods.

Abi

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:28:23 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Question to Abi or Anth
Message:
Hi NA,

I want you know that when I first started to read about Abi & Susan's story I thought it was about people from Miami. Turned out Abi was on the other side of the globe.

I lived in Miami w/K starting from 1980. I was visiting premies and heard about Jagdeo molesting at least one of the little girls in the community. It was a shock! We were so culted out that we didn't even imagine confronting Maha. Isn't that sad?

This is unconsciousable. How could any healthy person see differently?

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:34:53 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: To Deborah
Message:
Deborah,

Is there any chance you could contact those premies you knew who told you about Jagdeo, and see if they remember how they were told or any other information? Was it common knowledge among the Miami premies?

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:05:09 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: To Deborah
Message:
Yes, I know exactly who to talk with, but I need help locating people.

Yes, I believe it would have been common knowledge among a huge sub-community of premies. Of course, not the Miami community at large
Yes, I remember some names. Disculta may be able to help me, we were had a lot of premie acquaintances in common.

Would you like to discuss this via email? Perhaps other stuff to talk about?

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:16:32 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: wwilliam@kumc.edu
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: To Deborah
Message:
Deborah,

Email anytime, especially if you come up with any additional information from the former Miami people.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:05:43 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Question to Abi or Anth
Message:
I'm reluctant to revisit this Jagdeo stuff again, but Passing Through's vapid remarks has made me wonder about one fact. I am not aware of what year Charnanand was first told by Abi's father about the abuse.

Passing Through is still maintaining that the known facts do not put any blame on Rawat. If it were known when Charnanand first knew about the situation, premies would have to acknowledge that Jagdeo was allowed to get away with his crimes, by Charnanand at least, and most probably by Rawat as well.

I don't think Charnanand's duplicity in this affair has been stressed enough. Charnanand is currently choosing who among the aspirants is ready to receive Knowledge. If aspirants knew that Charnanad helped hush up Jagdeo's paedophile activities, I don't think they would want to have anything to do with him.

It is disgusting that Jagdeo was still living in honor at the Delhi ashram in the late 1990's, but it is also objectionable that Rawat continues to use Charnanand as one of his major representatives.


---

Hi Way,

I don't know when Abi's dad told Charanand. Only that he told him.

Susan also reputed Jagdeo's abuse to Randy Prouty and Judy Osborne, both instructors at the time, and asked them to tell Maharaji. Judy even reported back to Susan what Maharaji told her.

Unfortunately, they both have memory lapses about the incident. They don't say, 'No. It didn't happen,' rather, 'We can't remember.'

And then there's the letter I got from a National Co-ordinator telling me Jagdeo's crimes against children were discussed amongst small groups of representatives at the conferences. As a result of this, he was banned from touring in the West, and limited to Asian communities in the Far East.

Anth of course he bloody knew.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:54:33 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: New question to Anth
Message:
Anth,

Thanks for your response.

This is the first time I have heard about Jagdeo being banned from touring in the West and limited to Asian communities in the Far East. Perhaps I missed a post about that. I don't think that fact is included in the 'The Truth About Maharaji' site. Can you say when this banning took place? It must have been 1999 or after.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 15:06:00 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Way
Subject: Answer for Way, (J-M, m'aides stp)
Message:
Hi Way,

I can't remember exactly. I put all the info I got in a post called, 'Jagdeo. They knew for years.'

I think it is on EPO, in a post under the Jagdeo section, called
I just had a look for it but can't find it. I think someone put up a link to it the other day. Maybe Jean-Michel can put a link up.

I do know it was a while before 99. I think around 93, but I'm not sure, you need to check the post.

Anth, sorry to be so vague.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:37:26 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: 'They knew for years' - link lower down..
Message:
..in my reply to Abi: 'The world is watching'.

Click 'view all' first and go straight to your 'They knew for years' post...

Nige the not-supernaturally-talented librarian, call it synchronicity or something..

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:29:44 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: time sequence is important
Message:
The Jagdeo info on Sir Dave's 'The Truth About Maharaji' site reprints posts from Kelly about her correspondence with Deepak Raj Bhandari, who is Maharaji's current right-hand man in India, replacing Sampuranand. Bhandari says that he himself had not heard of Jagdeo's offenses until 1999, when they came out on EPO. Bhandari also says that he talked to Maharaji at the time, 1999, and Maharaji told him that he (Maharaji) had not known anything about the crimes earlier than 1999.

But if Charanand was told before 1999, then he certainly would have told Maharaji, wouldn't he? (So it is important to know when Abi's father first told Charanand).

And if Jagdeo was banned from touring in the West sometime around 1993, then Rawat would most certainly have known about that, and he would most certainly have known why Jagdeo was being banned.

Yet, Rawat claims he knew nothing until 1999. How could that be?

It appears that if we put all the pieces of the puzzle together, that Rawat knew about Jagdeo's paedophilia offenses and yet continued to allow him to tour, at least in Asia. And it can also be shown that Rawat lied to people about when he first knew about the situation.

It is important to make this point as clearly as we can, because I think that most premies are still hanging on to the hopeful belief that Rawat did not know about Jagdeo until 1999 and that he was as shocked and appalled as anyone normally would be and that he then demanded that Jagdeo leave the Delhi ashram.

I hope Jean Michel, or somebody else, will refer me to Anth's post about the conferences in which Jagdeo was banned.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:44:44 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I want to add...
Message:
I, myself, am convinced that both Judy and Randy told Rawat when Susan asked them to and that Rawat has been lying about the situation ever since. The reason I am trying to pin down this other information is only because it takes more evidence to convince the pwiks.
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 22:59:36 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: something else
Message:
You know what else?

I asked and asked Dr Pascotto to tell me where Jagdeo was and he said no-one knew. Some PAM called Bobby approached my father at Amaroo and said that the last time Maharaji had seen Jagdeo he had turned his back on Jagdeo and that even Jagdeo's own sons didn't know where he was. Which is odd given tht EV said he had left the ashram in India to return to his family village. Eventually, after I pleaded with Pascotto to tell me where jagdeo was, Marcia Lietner called me and gave me the name of a village in India where Jagdeo was last seen. She said 'some Indian' had given her the information but din't know when he was last seen there or by whom or who the Indian was. I said, do you really expect me to fly to India and search for him myself? i asked her about the report into Jagdeo and if I could see it and she said it was confidential. Marcia Lietner was involved in the investigation. Pascotto told me this and Lietner herself admitted this to me on the phone. Pascotto was also involved.

None of them will give me a straight answer.

What have they got to hide? A pedophile perhaps?

Abi

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:08:44 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Nothing has changed Abi.
Message:
It's a familiar scenario.

From the very start, the cult's reaction has been to protect their master with lies and deceit.

Eventually they are going to have to face up to their responsiblity, and accept the consequences of protecting a paedophile.

They really are a despicable bunch of pathetic, spineless, lying, brainwashed, scumbags.

Anth on the cliffs.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 07:49:18 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Nothing has changed Abi.
Message:
Hi Anth,
read your e-mail.

Abi

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:29:13 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I found the date of Jagdeo's 'restrictions'
Message:
I found Anth's post called They Knew For Years, or something to that effect. It is in the Best of the Forums section.

Anth posted that somebody he called Phyllis (not her real name) told him that during several instructor conferences in the 1970's and 80's that several of the instructors would discuss the Jagdeo problem and that they knew about his paedophilia. Jagdeo's activies were 'restricted' starting in 1983 and by 1985 he was entirely restricted to Indian communities in the Far East.

Rawat MUST have known what all these instructors knew. Surely he knew that Jagdeo was being 'restricted.'

But we still don't have enough hard evidence to convince the current pwiks, I'm afraid. They will say something like Jagdeo's activities were being restricted because of his poor health. We need Phyllis to help us out here, if she would be willing to provide Anth with more details about who knew what and exactly how and why Jagdeo was restricted, and if she knows anything about Rawat's directives in all of this.

Anth, can you contact Phyllis again and ask her specifically (1) if Charanand knew in 1985, and (2)who it was that made the decision to restrict Jagdeo, and (3) what Rawat was told by the instructors at that time, and any other info that might be useful.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 12:17:44 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Question to Abi or Anth
Message:
Has anyone ever made a concerted effort to publicly and directly confront charnanand with this?
I have always considered him to be an honest, almost saintly man, and would be curious to see what his reaction might be.

It would be nice to think he might show some reaction, but I would bet that his response would be the same 'I don't recall' that Randy and Judy have had.

Do you think his name should be more prominently referenced in this?

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 15:00:21 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Charanand, the Jerk
Message:
I don't believe that any premie would question Charanand, m's pet mahatma. He's been placed upon a pedestal far too long.

My personal experience with Charanand (advocating my abortion by giving advise the father of my unborn child that we both should enter the ashram) tells me the guy is a creep.

This ''I cannot recall'' business is pure bullshit. Politicians use it all the time when they are called to be questioned about bad behavior.

Of course rawat knew. I have no doubts about it. Charanand knew, rawat knew, Judy and Randy knew, and I have a strong feeling that Marolyn knew as well. I believe the key is now Marolyn. A mother of four, whose midwife was Judy Osbourne. I believe she was told. Now this isn't fact--I'd hate to spread rumors, you see.

But Charanand is now charged with the ''service'' of picking and choosing who is worthy of receiving k. I, too, would like those aspirants who come before him to ask HIM a few questions....

Cynthia, without a doubt, an ex-premie

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:25:47 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Passing Through – please define your terms…
Message:
Passing Through, in a thread lower down you challenged ex-premies to give it their ‘best shot’ to try and come up with something which might convince you M and K were other than ‘clean’ (Your choice of term).

To save both your own and others’ time, it would probably help if you could offer some sort of a baseline – a working definition of what you would consider dishonourable behaviour on M’s part. A definition of unclean.

For example, you are not persuaded by Way’s assumption that M must have heard something about Jagdeo’s sexually abusing children. Fair enough – we each set our own standards of evidence when weighing-up its persuasiveness. But in this particular case would the itemised minutes of an EV board meeting from 1983 where M was present and Jagdeo discussed qualify? Or maybe the earwitness testimony of somebody who was present?

(NB: I have no personal knowledge of any such meeting or evidence – this is a hypothetical example – and I am not specifically talking about the Jagdeo case. In spite of its seriousness, Jagdeos’s activities are peripheral to M’s accountability to premies and exes in a broader sense)

For many of us the well-documented lies (eg. about his powers and divinity), his hypocrisy and broken promises provide adequate cause for holding M to account. But nothing, it seems, even in the ‘14 objections’ letter raises the least doubt in your mind regarding Maharaji’s personal integrity, or lack thereof.

So could you please give us an idea of the quality of evidence which might make you reassess the man?

Unless you can do this there is precious little chance of your having any bottom-line conversation with folks around here. Without such agreed terms of engagement you are wasting not only our time but yours too, IMO.

Thanks.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:42:06 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Definitey NIgel
Message:
Dear Nigel,
It's pretty simple for me.
I received K in 1972, within days of first hearing about M & K.
For the next 4 months I practiced fitfully without talking to another person with K.
During those 4 months, using only the techniques, I became aware that the techniques connected me with a non mental, non judgemental, stillness within me.
And the more I practiced the more solid it became, K was creating a subtle but significant change within me..
I went front a mentally unstable, depressed, acid head to a positive, happy, 'found' person.
No brainwashing, no satsang, no other influences other that the four techniques.
I have practiced them ever since.
For me, they are the emotional version of hatha yoga.
An hour in the morning keeps me flexible, relaxed and happy.
As for M, I have always accepted a clear distinction between M the teacher and PPRawat the human.
I don't consider those to roles contradictory.
As a teacher, it was M who showed me the techniques and it is M who makes that effort to remind me of the possibilities.
As a human, he seems normal to me.
Yes, I have obverved him to drink alchohol, swear and tell rude jokes.
But so do I.
If he is a drug taker or an adulterer, I have no problem with that.
Most people I know haved smoke pot or taken Ectasy.
And most people I know have also had sex outside their partnership.
To me they are non issues.
Like condemning the Beatles as musicians because of the drug use, womanizing or John Lennon's 'more popular than Jesus' comment.
None of the criticisms leveled at M in this Forum are unacceptable to me.
I accept that when M came to the west his opinions, concepts and statements were soaked in Indian spiritual mumbo jumbo.
He soon learnt and changed.
Don't we all?
As for Jagdeo, I know M well enough to know that he would be outraged at Jagdeo's activities.
I have no doubt it took a long time for even a hint of Jagdeo's activities to have filtered through to M, passing through dozens of mature adults on the way.
All could and should have done more.
The fact that M is at the end of this terrible game of Chinese whispers does not make him an accessory.
Nor is he responsible for punishing him.
What offends me most about this Forum is that behaviour that is acceptable in the posters is unacceptable in M.
Let those exes who have got drunk, smoked dope, cheated on the partners, accumulated money, said things 25 years ago that they wouldn't say now, please leave the room!
Is there any one left?
I don't know?
I had to leave the room.
PT
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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 08:52:56 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: You argument dude is unreal!
Message:
As a teacher, it was M who showed me the techniques and it is M who makes that effort to remind me of the possibilities.
As a human, he seems normal to me.
Yes, I have obverved him to drink alchohol, swear and tell rude jokes.
But so do I.

So you present your respect to him, kiss his feet, recognize him as THE LaRD OF THE UNIVERSE, savior, you accept him as an authority in your life but he is just another person, with flaws like everyone else....

That shows clearly the level of brainwashing premies have and who put those ideas in your HEAD-IDEAS-HE, maharaji himself, a drunk, materialistic dilussive being who lies to people to get their money to liVe like royalty! YOU APROVE? YOU ARE SICK! Go talk to a shrink.

SCRAM, YOU MORON!

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:30:39 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Yo dude!
Message:
Hooray!
Maharaji was hospitalized for an ulcer in the early '70s.
It was common knowledge.
He got married in the early '70s.
How could any sane person think he was anything else but a normal person doing normal things.
PT
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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:11:15 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: mentally unstable, depressed, acid head
Message:
So PT,

when you came along to join the Captain's cult, you were, in your own words, a 'mentally unstable, depressed, acid head'.

I guess that gave you the discrimination and understanding to judge carefully what you were getting into.

Good job you weren't vulnerable, you might have ended up in a cult.

You can smell the smoke, how come you can't see the fire.

Do you know anyone who wasn't fucked up on drugs, or emotionally unstable, who got into the cult?

Maybe you should look at the wall and read the writing PT.

Anth, mentally unstable, fucked on rugs.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:38:14 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: To AJW
Message:
I didn't say I was unintelligent or innocent.
I didn't get into a cult, I got into the techniques.
PT
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Date: Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 19:50:40 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Didn't we all PT.
Message:
I didn't say I was unintelligent or innocent.
I didn't get into a cult, I got into the techniques.
PT


---

None of us wanted to be in a cult PT. We all thought we were doing something of benefit to ourselves and humanity by following the Captain.

We could all see the cult, but inwardly diassociated ourselves with it.

But if you line up with the rest of them to kiss the Captain's feet, hand over your dosh week by week, and believe all the stuff you're supposed to about 'Perfect Masters' (See Richard 2), and the techniques being, an experience of perfection, or god within or whatever it's called nowaday, then, sorry to be the one to tell you, but you're in a cult mate.

Anth, was in there too.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:08:07 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: *** J-M - Best of Forum!!! ***
Message:
I know it's unusual (without precedent?) to nominate a premie's post as a BOF, but Passing Through's admissions about Maharaji's behaviour deserve to be stored to back up the exes' testimonies.

John.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 06:15:08 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: My favorite bit
Message:
Hi John,

My favorite bit of his post is where he describes the typical mental state of someone about to receive knowledge, mentally unstable and fucked up on acid.

They really have a big blind spot don't they?

Anth, that's how they got me too.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:43:05 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: My favorite bit
Message:
Since we both started off in the same place, how come we ended up so different?
PT
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:38:05 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Gee JHB, where have you been..
Message:
I would estimate thousands of peope have heard at least one of M rude jokes.
He knows more jokes than anyone I know.
And hundreds would have seen him drink alchohol at the many functions he attends.
Swearing? Well even the most saintly of us slip.
I'm just wondering why this perfectly normal behaviour is a revelation to you.
PT
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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 16:48:00 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Re: Gee PT, where have you been..
Message:
This is small potatoes compared to the REAL reasons why we are here.

Stick around, you'll see what some of us mean. You, again, You, posted the silly post taunting us about the drugs and dealers and subsequent supporters of Maha. This was not OUR outburst.

Then, you, again you, post to the fact that you know he's a mere womanizing, average joe with a fat wallet.

So why are defending him? Why would you propagate? What's Maha's purpose in life?

Seriously, you have not come to the realization of what you really believe Maha to be or not to be. Who gives a fuck about the question.

News Tip: The forecast for this evening is only cloudy, but believe me baby, their is 100% possibility of precipitation in the morning.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:52:57 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Read it again Deborah
Message:
No Deborah I didn't post 'that you(I) know he's a mere womanizing, average joe with a fat wallet.

I SAID: IF........
'IF he is a drug taker or an adulterer, I have no problem with that'.
This is one lesson that this Forum never learns.
The difference between a personally observed fact and mailicious gossip.
PT

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 21:40:20 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Re: Think again PT
Message:
Ok, so that was a little paraphrazed, I admit. But your summation of the forum:

This is one lesson that this Forum never learns. The difference between a personally observed fact and mailicious gossip.

Well PT, this is purely laughable. Many of the people have first time experience and you think because you put that silloy little statement in print that someone will read it and say, 'OH, he told her' without going to read for yourself.

Do you realize that you have only ignited a fire under our ambition because of these statements. Do you have any idea where this is about to go? Sending clowns like you to write this shit is stupid. Not because you are a waste of time but because this stupid statement is permanently recorded. You can't erase the post. You are burying yourself and your fucked up shit-for-brains MASTER. It's totally laughable. Everytime you write this shit, you bury yourself more and more.

did you watch the video last night, you know, with the neon arrows pointing to God over the Maha gurushit's head?

Answer the real questions. Or are you too scared. Yes, you are. You are so fuckin frightened that you think you are actually doing something. Well the more I read that brain-numbing head-be-fucked answers to post the more I realize that premies and EV shit-for-brains are not the targeted market.

You are killing the cult as you speak. Thank you.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:28:49 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: True (sadly) and he never answered the question...
Message:
It was PT's own challenge, re. 'best shot' and M being 'clean'. I asked for clarification and we get what...?

To 'Passing Through': I think you have a few problems with M and K you are not admitting to yourself. No problem. Most of us have been there. But don't pass through, stick around. Deep down you know it makes sense... ;)

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:27:08 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel corrected
Message:
Dear Nigel,
Below is my original post.
As you can see you are mistaken.
There is a world of difference between 'clear' and 'clean' but in your rush to judge you have gone off on a tangent.
I am not offering to judge whether M or anyone else is 'clean' what I said was that after reading the postings and allegations in this Forum, I believe M & K are 'in the clear'.
Do bother apologizing, it would set a terrible precedent for this Forum.
PT

Come on!
Give me your best shot.
I've read all the postings.
I still think M and K are in the clear.
30 minute free for all, starting now.
PT

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 02:52:17 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Passing Through
Subject: 'clear' or 'clean' - Q still unanswered
Message:
OK, I misquoted one word. Sorry. But the meaning is essentially the same - whether you talk about M being 'in the clear' or 'clean', you can still set a bottom-line of acceptable behaviour. (Simply rephrase the question: what sort of evidence would convince you M is no longer 'in the clear'?)

That is what I was asking for and you have gone to some lengths to avoid anwering that question.

The point is, PT, this is your challenge to the exes. You started a whole new thread to make that post. It now sounds like you are saying 'I don't care what M may have done. However flawed his character I still value him as a teacher...'

Which is your choice, of course - but if so, what the fuck was the point of your challenge?

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:07:52 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: ''clear up'.
Message:
I was asking for something a little more important than this Forum's puritan pre occupation with M's wealth, marriage, size, the fact he drinks alchohol and comments made as a 15 year old 26 years ago.
The Jagdeo stuff is awful and you're anger should be directed to him.
I have no reason to disbelieve the statement made in another thread that M says he didn't know until 1999.
PT
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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:48:35 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Re: ''clear up'.
Message:
Believe me, I'm no 'puritan' and I'm not preoccupied (one word) with Maharaji's wealth except to the extent that he made it off the backs of his cult members, which I used to be. I worked very hard as his slave and I certainly do resent his lifestyle--I'd like some compensation for the illegal work I did for him, so there, Mr. Passing Through.

Whoever you are, why don't you take a hike over to Lifes Great (sic) and harrass people there. You certainly don't have the brains, intellect or humanity to think clearly about being in a cult (which you are). Fact is, if you've been meditating on the techniques as taught by the Fatguru, you've been taught incorrectly.

Maybe that's why your brain seems damaged. Stop wasting our time with your shallow statements. You don't think logically, in order to do that you ought to ask your guru some questions (but I doubt he'd answer your questions) and if he did, he'd lie, as he always does.

Get lost, fuck off, I'm sick of you fucking brainwashed, head in the sand premies.

THIS IS AN EX-PREMIE FORUM, get it? EX-Premies. I don't have to be polite to you, nor do I have to tolerate your stupidity. PASS THROUGH, just hit your link to Lifes Great (sic), Pia's site, Charles Glasser's site, or any other EV site that you can heartily agree with.

YOU ASSHOLE!

Bye Bye!

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:15:14 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: What Maharaji said does matter
Message:
Why are you discounting the statements Maharaji made? It was those statements that helped to convince me of his divinity. But it's not just what he said as a 15 year old. He said similar stuff as a 20 year old, and as a 30 year old, and as a 40 year old. Are we allowed to quote him in our discussion with you?

John.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:40:24 (EDT)
From: bill-jeeze pt, as if feeling your breath
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: negates all other factors. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:49:15 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: bill-jeeze pt, as if feeling your breath
Subject: And finally bill
Message:
I love your nerve.
Do I have to check with you before I can give an opinion about something I've experienced?
I was there.
I lived through it and believe me at first I thought it might have been bio rhythms, karma or coincidence.
But no, it was definitely the Knowledge and I've proved it over and over again for 28 years.
Give it a try.
Surely it can't be bad for you to go within your own body and experience something.
PT
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:19:32 (EDT)
From: ~)Catweasel ~)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: And the Police and I are VERY close
Message:
So enough of this garbage about them . I showed them some wondrous stuff. Oh yes , Mr Plod was very impressed. Especially with the Goddess of the Frozen Tundras............
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 13:29:24 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: ~)Catweasel ~)
Subject: Cat,did you show 'em da baseball bat? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 18:49:00 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: Cat,did you show 'em da baseball bat?
Message:
No such. Now that had them laughing. Apparently they were more intertested in chasing down an international big mouth with a penchant for harrassment. Our laws are not easily manipulated by opportunistic law vendors
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 10:46:02 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Who I am( NOT)
Message:
I'm a little tired of being outed as someone that I am not. I live 2000 Klms away from where the fellow in question supposedly resides.
John T you should get a life. Are you really as stupid as you seem. EV does not bother with trivialities like my identity. My style is quite different to those I have been accused of being. Think about this JohnT and Nigel . Every one of the people you have accused me of being is a separate funster yanking your chain barr one person I noticed using two handles.
Now I actually dont give a fuck who any of you are so how about you just let me be the little weedy guy in the long green cape. Or I might turn you into a frog.
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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:17:11 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Who gives a shit anyway? (nt)
Message:
Not me pal.
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:55:42 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Who I am( NOT)
Message:
Did you say FUCK, you erudite? LOL
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:32:54 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: That Word
Message:
Why? Do you like the sound of the word? To me this is as boring as it is for you. But I feel it is important that the confused ones at least understand they are not talking to some multi-headed Hydra , unless of course they might be conversing with Drek.
Yes it is a lovely word . Expressive ,alluring and sensual - Why dont you use it baby! I'm ready........
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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 00:09:07 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: That Word
Message:
I hate Catweesels. Couldn't use it with you, EVER. Besides, It wouldn't be proper: I am monogamous and I am taken. My fiancee can explain more but he doesn't post here. He is a totally free person. Never a premie or an ex.

You know? Premies fanatics like you look to me more and more as time go by as 'demonic' evilish beings. In my lands we say: Even if a moneky dreeses itself with silks is still a monkey.

Funny what impressions can do to our minds: We may be very well eating shit and we may think that is nectar from above.

You using the word fuck shows clearly that you are not special as you think to be: Just an ordinary insulting, low weesel. All dressed up and nowhere to go.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:21:46 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Who you are....
Message:
Catweasal, you're a royal pain in the ass, that's it.

So, you're tired...well, I for one, am very tired of YOU!

Your fleas are jumping all over this forum and I'm allergic. This, plus your other annoyances like scratching up the furniture and bitting people tells me you have less dignity than any of my three cats.

Bye bye,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 00:19:34 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: But Cynthia
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

I read your post to CW and realized that the problem is in PAPA land the word dignity doesn't exist. Do you think CW knows what you are even saying? I truly doubt that. Power corrupts and the only power mariachi gives the premies is only a very strange power: The power to brake everybody's balls who doesn't agree with their nonsense.

CW seems to have a strong need to convince himself to be right,as if he uses us to reafirm his weak faith: Deep inside he has doubts... and well, maybe he is the last to leave, the last one to subscribe for the satellite BS...Poor miau.

Well, we ex-premies know that unless you crossed to this side one is unable to see the REAL forest. CW is playing still with toothpicks.

I wish him luck. Poor guy, so fanatic and obtuse.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:38:49 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Who ,Who...............
Message:
Cynthia Policewoman. Another Northern Ice Queen. Your three cats would be most interesting. What are their names? Sooty ,Fluffy and
Felix? Mines called Bluey.....after Robert Redford.....
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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 12:17:34 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: Who ,Who...............
Message:
Btw, my cats' names are:

Miles, Milo, or Milos (pronounced Milosh)
Clara Bella (with an Italian accent)
Nina Benigni Giancarlo Giannini (also with an Italian accent)

Very dignified felines, indeed.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 09:26:51 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: You love to bait folks, don't you?
Message:
Northern Ice Queen, LOL! (Can be!)

Cynthia Policewoman, LOL! (not of this forum, but of my life)

I am a woman who can see through your facade. I am also very strong physically and emotionally and intellectually. I don't care who you are, I just hope one day you can see that you are in a cult, following a master who doesn't have the credentials or level of education to teach kindergarten. And because of his indifference to what Jagdeo did to little children, I don't even consider him a man--forget about the LarD!

Think about it. How long have you wasted your life on goomraji? What do you seek by coming HERE?

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 11:29:03 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You think?
Message:
You are wrong about one thing. He cares about what happened. But until Abi talks to the people who can do something about it , it just stays out here in Limbo.
No lectures please. I have worked with victims of abuse.
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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 12:09:03 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: You think?
Message:
You are wrong about Maharaji caring about anything but covering his ass. I, too, have worked extensively with survivors of child sexual abuse, and one does not talk to the parties who are protecting the perpetrator. Period. They were in collusion to protect a pedophile and continue to be in collusion in order to cover m's ass.

You are lost in their cloud of confusion if you think they 'can do something about it,' because I know how these things work and what they are doing to Abi's parents is despicable. You read her yourself, she is stressed out and physically sick. Is that what you call a solution? Is that how people are to be treated in this situation?

And you want her to talk to them?

I know how it feels to be a victim, too, so don't ask me not to tell you how it really is for a victim of abuse. EV and Maharaji are the ones stonewalling and hunting for information. If they had any decency they would end this now.

The ball is in their court!

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 07:42:50 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Hope
Message:
From maharaji.org 'Response' section, 'Hope' subsection. As the pop-up box says, the 'Response' section is 'My views on selected topics and my responses to selected Emails'. (Don't ask me why 'Emails' needs to be capitalized here - I don't know. It's wrong.'

Hope is a light in the darkness, an island in the midst of the water, an oasis in the vast empty desert.

Hope is the element that can move us from sorrow towards joy.

What do I hope for?

I hope for that which can come true.

I hope for joy.

I hope for love.

I hope for the betterment of each being on earth.

I hope for peace.

Thirst will not be quenched if the thirsty do not drink the water. Darkness will not be removed if the light is not ushered in.
We have the ability to do something to make our hopes come true.

The guy's been a supposed 'master' for 35 years and he still hopes for love, peace and joy. Can any follower of hahahaharaji explain this?

Steve

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 06:25:43 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My reply to an eMail from Jim Heller
Message:
Jim, you are clearly still in denial.

As to who 'won' our discourse, well, you never got to me so badly that I lost control of myself and swore at you on a public forum.

As to my motive in trying to talk to you, well, let me put it this way. When you aren't being verbally abusive to others I just don't find you important enough to spend much time on.

As to my mentioning your name on LG, don't flatter yourself that it is cause you 'touched a nerve'. You are just a very good example, or I should say your posts were, of inappropriate behavior. And especially now, when your behavior in the controversy on F5 right before and as you left was such that even some who had been your supporters expressed disappointment in you.

Jim, I had only been posting a few months when you left. And I didn't read very many of your posts during that period. But I found 1 with racism being demonstrated. And the posts in which you were verbally abusive were legion. Being a victim of racism and abuse, like Abi I have a low tolerance for abusers. She informed me that you were very gentle and supportive of her in her early days as an ex. So for her sake, when you do come back to the forums I'll leave you alone if you leave me alone and aren't too abusive, IMO, of others. But I put you on notice that if you trouble me I will go thru the archives and find your own statements that will expose you to the ex community, and any ione else reading their public forum, for the bigot and abuser you have demonstrated to me that you are.

The eMail letter I am responding to was not overtly threatening or harassing; it was unwelcome, as well as pompous and grandiose. I request that you cease and desist from communicating with me; any further unsolicited eMails from you will be regarded by me as harrasment, and will be dealt with accordingly. I will forward a copy of this eMai, and my reply, to the administrators here at Yahoo, and will request their help should I receive any further undesired corespondance from you. I will also post this reply on LG, AG &F5

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 13:53:06 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Carlos
Subject: Here's Jim's email to Carlos
Message:
Carlos: in the interests of fair play, I am posting Jim's email to you here. If you want to make this everybody's business then let's give them the whole story. Fair enough?

(I have Jim's permission to post this)

>
> > Carlos,
> >
> > While I'm not posting anymore I have dropped in to the forums once
> > or twice and looked around a bit. You seem to have developed
> > something of an obsession about me in that you can't stop talking
> > about me even when the conversation's about something or someone
> > lese entirely. I guess I hit a nerve, huh?
> >
> > For what it's worth, here's what I think's going on with you.
> > Maybe you're aware of this, maybe you're not but, in any event,
> > here's my theory.
> >
> > Any reasonable outsider familiar with the facts of Maharaji's life,
> > from his childhood in India through his early Lord of the Universe
> > days up to the present would have no problem dismissing Maharaji as
> > an obvious charalatan. The case against him is multi-facted and
> > equally indisputable from any angle. Indeed, his only defenders
> > are his current cult members and, as both you and I know, they
> > represent a tiny percentage of the people who once called
> > themselves premies. In that respect, premies are no better than
> > flat-earthers. They can confirm each others' faith all they want
> > but the outside world, to the extent it even knows such funny
> > thinking's taking place, can't take this cult seriously.
> >
> > Now you are too smart to think you can ever defend Maharaji
> > point-for-point. He HAS no defence. That's obvious. But you're
> > not even trying to really defend the guy. What you're undertaking,
> > in my view, is far less ambitious and that's why you're at it.
> > Your whole goal seems to be to have the ex-premies treat you with
> > respect regardless of your beliefs. If you can only get them to
> > concede that Carlos is a reasonable guy, well that's all you can
> > ask for. Then you can shake hands, agree to disagree and that's
> > it. Mutual resepct all around.
> >
> > The problem, Carlos, is that there IS no way for a reasonable and
> > reasonably informed person to believe in Maharaji. Sure, you might
> > get exes to back off from the actual debate out of some misguided
> > sense of courtesy but the moment the issues are addressed your
> > position emerges as laughable. I'm sorry, Carlos, but that's the
> > way the outside world would see it and there's good reason for
> > that.
> >
> > Now I tried to debate Maharaji's credibility with you myself before
> > I quit. You failed miserably. It's hilarious to see you continue
> > to cry about how illogical, rabid or unfair I was. Carlos, those
> > complaints are useless. The truth is that neither you nor any
> > other premie can logically defend Maharaji. You tried, got burnt
> > and have been licking your wounds ever since. And though you may
> > have a pack of other anonymous cult jackals cheering you on, the
> > outside world, should it ever look in, would side entirely with the
> > exes. You can bitch all you want about civility but at the end of
> > the day decorum is irrelevant. The truth is what matters, Carlos,
> > and that's something that's simply against you.
> >
> > I'll come back one day and when I do I'll invite you to debate
> > these issues again. No frills, no cheating, no bullshit. Just
> > facts and arguments. This isn't about whether Carlos or Jim is a
> > nice guy. It's about the truth. And the truth just happens to be
> > that Maharaji is not the Lord of the Universe but rather is a fraud
> > and parasite. Maybe next time you'll have the guts to actually
> > stay in the ring instead of jumping over the ropes as soon at the
> > first bell. To tell you the truth, though, I don't expect it.
> > Premies are simply unable to sustain a real debate about Maharaji.
> > That's why they call it a cult, don't forget.
> >
> > I had an idea, though. Wouldn't it be interesting to set up some
> > sort of mock 'tribunal' on these issues? The issue could be no
> > more than is Maharaji a fraud? Premies interested could find one
> > nominee for the tribunal, exes could find another and the two would
> > then pick a third between them ultimately creating a three-person
> > board. The only restriction would be that only people who'd never
> > been either premies or members of any similar sect or cult would be
> > allowed. The point is to keep this as arms-length neutral as
> > possible, of course. Once a three-person panel is selected, the two
> > sides would then be free to put together their case, perhaps with
> > some provision for reply and rebuttal. The parties then rest and
> > see what the panel decides.
> >
> > What do you think? Premies have for the longest time discounted
> > ex's as lacking perspective for various reasons and it's not secret
> > that exes think that premies generally make no sense whatsoever.
> > So fine, let some outsiders take a look. See how difficult THEY
> > find it to make sense of Maharaji's various statements and the
> > like. Hm? Would you be interested in this exercise? Isn't this
> > really the test of just how much faith you have in your own words
> > and arguments?
> >
> > On the other hand, you may feel that only a premie can properly
> > appreciate the arguments of a premie. That the proof of Maharaji's
> > legitimacy is abundant although one needs to have the right
> > subjective mindset to appreciate it so. That, of course, is the
> > hallmark of any cult philosophy: only insiders can really
> > understand. But you premies pretned that you actually believe that
> > your arguments are reasonable. Hence the challenge.
> >
> > What do you say? Ready to put your money where your mouth is?
> >
> > Jim

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:43:17 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: nice to read a Jim post [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:31:04 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: Carlos_Harden@yahoo.com
To: Nigel
Subject: I agree it's fair, Nigel. I didn't wish
Message:
to seek it since he made a racist crack (on F5 a few Fridays ago) while talking about me, and swore at me (on LG, a few weeks ago) and was generally abusive and manipulative in all of my contacts with him.

But I meant what I said about leaving him alone if he leaves me alone; I didn't post this out of a desoire to stir up shit, but rather to put him on notice that any discourse with me will be in public and will, on my part, mostly consist of showing the sides of him that seem to me to be racist, bigoted and abusive sides. And to do it thru documentation consisting of quotes from him, not by mere assertions.

I will respond to some of the posts this will undoubtedly stimulate, perhaps. Since my agenda is only to have him not be a pest, I may not. I really don't wish to expose him if he doesn't mess with me.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:19:58 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: I agree it's fair, Nigel. I didn't wish
Message:
Carlos,

Don't you think you're going a little far with this bigot bullshit? You said you were going to do some kind of healing dance for Jim and he mocked you by expressing his astonishment that you would do such a thing. Like he really needs it, eh? Heh, heh, maybe he could use it on second thought. Hey, it's a nice gesture, I guess, to do such a thing. I guess it shows your heart is in the right place, but seriously, do you think Jim's is in the wrong? I don't think so. And I don't think he's a racist either. Really, racism goes a lot further than goofing on somebody, playfully, that he's going to do a 'rain dance' for my soul. It was a goof, Carlos, no harm intended. I think you're just playing this card for what you can get out of it, hoping you can discredit Jim by doing so. It's not working, not with me, anyway, Tonto. Oops! Sorry, I didn't mean that the way it sounded. I mean, you know what I mean, it's just....

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:49:36 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: As a 1/2 Puerto Rican, from my name,
Message:
Carlos,

Don't you think you're going a little far with this bigot bullshit? You said you were going to do some kind of healing dance for Jim and he mocked you by expressing his astonishment that you would do such a thing. Like he really needs it, eh? Heh, heh, maybe he could use it on second thought. Hey, it's a nice gesture, I guess, to do such a thing. I guess it shows your heart is in the right place, but seriously, do you think Jim's is in the wrong? I don't think so. And I don't think he's a racist either. Really, racism goes a lot further than goofing on somebody, playfully, that he's going to do a 'rain dance' for my soul. It was a goof, Carlos, no harm intended. I think you're just playing this card for what you can get out of it, hoping you can discredit Jim by doing so. It's not working, not with me, anyway, Tonto. Oops! Sorry, I didn't mean that the way it sounded. I mean, you know what I mean, it's just....


---

I've been the victim of racism. So I'm sensitive to the subjedt. And, having been raised by my mom (the Latina 1/2 of my family) and knowing that in 'La Isla Bonita' racism against blacks just has never been like it was here on the mainland, I thought I was free of racism 'cause of the way I was raised. But a black panther buddy of mine, in New Orleans in '69, helped me see and accept and face, so I could keep in check, the residual racism everyone raised in white N. America has, in his opinion & in mine.

Using a racial stereotype to belittle someone is classic racism, Jerry. Believing it is OK to 'attack' a group merely because they are a member of that group, is classic bigotry. So are, IMO, a number of his other behaviours. So, no, I do think he's in the wrong, and, no, I'm not 'playung thus card for all its worth'.

It may suprise you to know I discussed my feelings about his racist remark with a responsible ex well respected in your community BEFORE I went public with it, cause I know as well as you do I'm biased against the man due to his treatment of me.

But my only agenda really is to get him to leave me alone. He complained in his eMail to me of my talking about him now that he's gone. I hate to give up what seems to me such a perfect example of innapropriate behaviour, but it might be fairer if I did since I don't want him contacting me. That much of a peace offering I will make.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:17:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: What the FUCK are you talking about?
Message:
Carlos,

Don't you think you're going a little far with this bigot bullshit? You said you were going to do some kind of healing dance for Jim and he mocked you by expressing his astonishment that you would do such a thing. Like he really needs it, eh? Heh, heh, maybe he could use it on second thought. Hey, it's a nice gesture, I guess, to do such a thing. I guess it shows your heart is in the right place, but seriously, do you think Jim's is in the wrong? I don't think so. And I don't think he's a racist either. Really, racism goes a lot further than goofing on somebody, playfully, that he's going to do a 'rain dance' for my soul. It was a goof, Carlos, no harm intended. I think you're just playing this card for what you can get out of it, hoping you can discredit Jim by doing so. It's not working, not with me, anyway, Tonto. Oops! Sorry, I didn't mean that the way it sounded. I mean, you know what I mean, it's just....


---

I've been the victim of racism. So I'm sensitive to the subjedt. And, having been raised by my mom (the Latina 1/2 of my family) and knowing that in 'La Isla Bonita' racism against blacks just has never been like it was here on the mainland, I thought I was free of racism 'cause of the way I was raised. But a black panther buddy of mine, in New Orleans in '69, helped me see and accept and face, so I could keep in check, the residual racism everyone raised in white N. America has, in his opinion & in mine.

Using a racial stereotype to belittle someone is classic racism, Jerry. Believing it is OK to 'attack' a group merely because they are a member of that group, is classic bigotry. So are, IMO, a number of his other behaviours. So, no, I do think he's in the wrong, and, no, I'm not 'playung thus card for all its worth'.

It may suprise you to know I discussed my feelings about his racist remark with a responsible ex well respected in your community BEFORE I went public with it, cause I know as well as you do I'm biased against the man due to his treatment of me.

But my only agenda really is to get him to leave me alone. He complained in his eMail to me of my talking about him now that he's gone. I hate to give up what seems to me such a perfect example of innapropriate behaviour, but it might be fairer if I did since I don't want him contacting me. That much of a peace offering I will make.


---

I'm just dropping in. Carlos, what is this 'racist' bullshit? Just another excuse to avoid the facts? Come on, talk about red herrings!
All of the 'constructive' time you spend on this site and LG seems dedicated to building some reserve of respect so that people will just kind of respect you even if you are afraid to face the fact that you're in a silly cult. It's pretty obvious, Carlos. So what about my idea? How about taking it ALL outside our various personalities and finding some intelligent outsiders to review this situation? Look, dude, either you sincerely believe your arguments or you don't. If you don't, fuck off already. If you do, let's find a way to put them -- and ours -- to some sort of test.

For example, the ongoing issue as to what m said and what it all means. Surely, intelligent, informed outsiders could best judge these words, don't you think? Why not join any other premies or exes interested in settling these matters in some sort of mature arbitration? Parties that arbitrate often hate each other. Right now, I hate premies as a group. Yes, I do. I think you're all broken human beings, quite frankly. Dishonest in the extreme and that includes smooth smoochers like David Andersen and his lovely sister and even 'nice' guys like you. But so fucking what? After all, maybe I'm the detestable one. Maybe this, maybe that ... in the end, like I say, it's all beside the point.

What about the truth, Carlos? Either you believe in your opinions and think the facts back them up or you don't. Right now, you look like you're just playing a game. Indeed, your post on LG where you say any 'sane' premie wouldn't dream of participating in any such exercise certainly confirms my prejudices. Balls in your court. You want to play or not?

Or is it that poor, little Carlos wants to only PLAY at playing? Is that more like it? Look at the crowd of premies on LG! Is that really as good as you premies get? I'm ashamed of ever being part of that cult. But, again, I digress. Personalities are beside the point. Do you want to test the reasonableness of your views or not?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 02:09:52 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I can believe in something without a
Message:
Carlos,

Don't you think you're going a little far with this bigot bullshit? You said you were going to do some kind of healing dance for Jim and he mocked you by expressing his astonishment that you would do such a thing. Like he really needs it, eh? Heh, heh, maybe he could use it on second thought. Hey, it's a nice gesture, I guess, to do such a thing. I guess it shows your heart is in the right place, but seriously, do you think Jim's is in the wrong? I don't think so. And I don't think he's a racist either. Really, racism goes a lot further than goofing on somebody, playfully, that he's going to do a 'rain dance' for my soul. It was a goof, Carlos, no harm intended. I think you're just playing this card for what you can get out of it, hoping you can discredit Jim by doing so. It's not working, not with me, anyway, Tonto. Oops! Sorry, I didn't mean that the way it sounded. I mean, you know what I mean, it's just....


---

I've been the victim of racism. So I'm sensitive to the subjedt. And, having been raised by my mom (the Latina 1/2 of my family) and knowing that in 'La Isla Bonita' racism against blacks just has never been like it was here on the mainland, I thought I was free of racism 'cause of the way I was raised. But a black panther buddy of mine, in New Orleans in '69, helped me see and accept and face, so I could keep in check, the residual racism everyone raised in white N. America has, in his opinion & in mine.

Using a racial stereotype to belittle someone is classic racism, Jerry. Believing it is OK to 'attack' a group merely because they are a member of that group, is classic bigotry. So are, IMO, a number of his other behaviours. So, no, I do think he's in the wrong, and, no, I'm not 'playung thus card for all its worth'.

It may suprise you to know I discussed my feelings about his racist remark with a responsible ex well respected in your community BEFORE I went public with it, cause I know as well as you do I'm biased against the man due to his treatment of me.

But my only agenda really is to get him to leave me alone. He complained in his eMail to me of my talking about him now that he's gone. I hate to give up what seems to me such a perfect example of innapropriate behaviour, but it might be fairer if I did since I don't want him contacting me. That much of a peace offering I will make.


---

I'm just dropping in. Carlos, what is this 'racist' bullshit? Just another excuse to avoid the facts? Come on, talk about red herrings!
All of the 'constructive' time you spend on this site and LG seems dedicated to building some reserve of respect so that people will just kind of respect you even if you are afraid to face the fact that you're in a silly cult. It's pretty obvious, Carlos. So what about my idea? How about taking it ALL outside our various personalities and finding some intelligent outsiders to review this situation? Look, dude, either you sincerely believe your arguments or you don't. If you don't, fuck off already. If you do, let's find a way to put them -- and ours -- to some sort of test.

For example, the ongoing issue as to what m said and what it all means. Surely, intelligent, informed outsiders could best judge these words, don't you think? Why not join any other premies or exes interested in settling these matters in some sort of mature arbitration? Parties that arbitrate often hate each other. Right now, I hate premies as a group. Yes, I do. I think you're all broken human beings, quite frankly. Dishonest in the extreme and that includes smooth smoochers like David Andersen and his lovely sister and even 'nice' guys like you. But so fucking what? After all, maybe I'm the detestable one. Maybe this, maybe that ... in the end, like I say, it's all beside the point.

What about the truth, Carlos? Either you believe in your opinions and think the facts back them up or you don't. Right now, you look like you're just playing a game. Indeed, your post on LG where you say any 'sane' premie wouldn't dream of participating in any such exercise certainly confirms my prejudices. Balls in your court. You want to play or not?

Or is it that poor, little Carlos wants to only PLAY at playing? Is that more like it? Look at the crowd of premies on LG! Is that really as good as you premies get? I'm ashamed of ever being part of that cult. But, again, I digress. Personalities are beside the point. Do you want to test the reasonableness of your views or not?


---

need to defend it, Jim. That would only serve your agenda, not any purpose I aprove of or find fulfilling. Since you continue to use verbally abusive attacks in this post, and brought out the racist thing again, I guess that's the first archive post of yours i'll refer to.

Archive #83, 7/6-7/15, 2001. Section E. Friday, 7/8 2001, titled: The limits of civility.'Carlos wants to do a Lakota rain dance for me to cleanse my soul.' This was as part of a post where you were being patronizing and condescending in manner towards premies in general. I was not alone in being focussed on with derision. And what is the use of a racial stereotype, ie, rain dance, to demean or belittle someone if not classic racism?

And racists often don't bother much about accuracy. In the 3 posts in whuch I offered to pray for you the Lakota way, in a dance, that it was a 'healing circle' was stated each time. I don't even think the Lakota HAD rain dances; they were plains Indians. It was the tribes who lived in or near the deserts that I know have rain dances. The Apache, the Navajo & Hopi, my people, the Comanche (I am only 1/8th, but I am more proud of that part of my ancestry than the rest of what my dad contributed.) And everyone who was been around F5 much at all knows of your policy regarding premies as a group. 'Attack' was the word you used in 1 post, you are quite open about it. Well, what is a person who decides it is OK to attack someone not in self defense, not as an individual for something that individual has done, but because they are a member of a group, often called? Substitute the word 'black' in place of the word 'premie' in Jim's willingness to attack someone just because they are a member of a group if you need to in order to be able to see it, but my answer to that question is , 'bigot.'

I don't say you realize you have some racist tendancies and are a bigot, Jim. I do NOT think you are a hypocite. I know that when a Black Panther helped me find the residual racism I had, in 1969, it was a suprise to me. I thoughtb that, as a Puerto Rica-0American (primarily, 50% by blood and raised by my Puerto Rican mother) that I was free of that. But I wasn't, Jim. And neither are you. You can learn to control it; I did. But it requires that you become willing to find apropriate ways to act out your anger. Can you even admit to the rage you so clearly carry? If you can, that may be a first step towards healing.

By the way, I have prayed for you in the healing circle twice now, and will continue to do so. I have no idea if it'll do you any good or not. But the old ways make me feel good. And praying for those I resent or am angry with makes it easier for me to let go of my anger.

And, again, no, I will not debate you while I continue to see abusive behaviour in your posts. If that ever changes in my eyes I'll be happy to talk with you. Till then I ask you to leave me alone.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:51:00 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Sugar Pie Honey Bunch.
Message:
Hey,

you accuse Jim of being a racist. He asks you for evidence and you produce this quote,

'Carlos wants to do a Lakota rain dance for me to cleanse my soul.'

Is that it? Is that the best you can come up with?

That's supposed to be racist. (And it looks like you did offer to do the dance anyway.)

Carlos, if this is the best you can do, your time would be better spent sucking snot under your meditation blanket.

By the way Carlos, I hate racists and racism, and speak out against it whenever I encounter it. But to call Jim a racist based on that remark is pathetic.

We're all 100% African anyway. Where do you think the Lakota came from in the first place?

Either you're more stupid than I thought, or more malicious than I thought.

Jim must have really got your goat.

Hey, while we're at it, why don't you do a Lakota rain dance for me too? My soul needs cleansing. 25 years of knowledge only muddied the waters.

Anth going to dance to some Tamla Motown to cleanse Carlos' soul. 'Sugar-Pie Honey Bunch. You know I love you. I can't help myself...'

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 04:49:52 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Lookout! It's a Believer!
Message:
Carlos: I can believe in something without a need to defend it, Jim. That would only serve your agenda, not any purpose I aprove of or find fulfilling.

Of course you can Carlos. Just like my kids can believe in Santa Claus or the tooth-fairy, without a need to examine that belief in the light of reason.

In this respect YOU (and not Jim Heller) are like the fascists marching through British ghettoes to spark off riots. Listen up! They too believe in their notions of (in their case, racial) superiority without a need to defend their ideas in the light of reason.

You say you feel in need of no reason to defend your ideas of your own spiritual superiority and that of 'Captain' Prempal Rawat of Malibu, the fraud who you accept as your spiritual master under his stage name of Maharaji. Prejudice and not reason is your guide. Take a good look at the company you keep, Carlos.

You have plumbed the depths with your ad hominem arguments. But even you must be able to see that you have no right to set out guidelines for debate while you continue to deny the role of reason in human affairs of this kind.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 19:17:36 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: I did not set out guidelines to debate,;
Message:
I declined the invitation.
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:58:25 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: It won't work
Message:
Premies will say that you have to have that experience to understand Maharaji etc etc. Maharaji's and premies' views can be unreasonable because they purport to be talking about some reality which other people don't have any inkling of.

Therefore, I think the only people who can really debunk Maharaji are ex-premies, who have been in that supposed "other reality" and know all about it. Outsiders won't have a clue what the trip is.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:18:31 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Re: It won't work
Message:
Hi Dave,

I disagree with this statement:

Outsiders won't have a clue what the trip is.

I talk with people on campus now, they are very interested.

And juxtoposed against similar cult cleansings we're finding on the web and the Oregonian expose of Cheatananda.

What we need to talk about is how to 'package' it for media consumption.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:22:29 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: How about this, Dave?
Message:
What we could do is present a quote like the following and ask impartial arbiters what they think of the premies' insistence that it doesn't mean Maharaji was really claiming to be God in the western sense as we understand it, that it means something else, whatever the hell that could be. Here's the quote:

'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......

How well do you think a premie is going to fare with trying to reconcile this statement with Maharaji's current claim that he never said he was God before an impartial arbiter? They're going to look like they've got boogers for brains is how they're going to fare, that's how.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:14:45 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: True
Message:
and to tell the truth, I don't know how today's premies can reconcile the obvious difference between Guru Maharaj Ji, the incarnation of God come with more power than ever before who could make everyone without knowledge turn blue and float three feet off the ground and could unzip the sky and poke his head out and tell everyone to get knowledge - I don't see how they can reconcile that with today's very diluted 'master'.

Obviously, Maharaji is a charlatan and if the general public know all the details, they'll agree. We know that. The premies who are still around probably believe that Maharaji still is God incarnate and that would mean that any group of Joe Public who give their opinions will be disregarded by the premies.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:24:20 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks, Nigel (and Jim)
Message:
So Carlos is resorting to personal attacks to avoid the arguments, and then setting himself up as the wounded party to justify his unwillingness to debate. Typical cult member behaviour, and particularly interesting as Carlos's 'nice' exterior is shown to be a sham.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 09:12:16 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Carlos - aren't you meditating at the moment?
Message:
What's the matter with you? Why don't you go sit down and stick your fingers in your eyes... then 'the world' won't get to you,
Love Lady Maharaji
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 08:45:43 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Get a Fucking Life Dickhead.
Message:
Really Carlos,

Do you think anyone wants to read this shite?

If you want to write to Jim, send him an email.

Get a fucking life, bloody bollock brain, bastard, buggering, twat face dickhead, arsehole.

Anth, losing control of himself, swearing on a public forum.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 14:43:49 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, you've never played the 'better
Message:
Really Carlos,

Do you think anyone wants to read this shite?

If you want to write to Jim, send him an email.

Get a fucking life, bloody bollock brain, bastard, buggering, twat face dickhead, arsehole.

Anth, losing control of himself, swearing on a public forum.


---

than' game with me. You've never (in front of me,at least; I haven't seen many of your posts yet) twisted facts to support your position, or stated opinions as facts, or told me what I felt/thought/believed (and been wrong every time). He has.

And I got tired of it before he left, don't want to have to put up with it again, and certainly don't want private correspondance with someone who has stated he believes in attacking folks like me simply because we are premies. And I feel thrashing it out in public is my best bet to convince him I'm serious; I'll expose as little of the stuff that will likely hurt his image with his fans as I feel is the necessary minimumn to do that because I'm not out to expose him, I'm out to convince him I will if I have to to get him to leave me alone. For that to be an effective inhibitor I need to not over do it.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 05:16:18 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: You don't get it Carlos.
Message:
You don't understand the dynamics of the forum Carlos. It is ephemeral.

If you don't post for a week or two, everybody forgets about you.

Most people who read your post don't even know who this James character is you're talking about.

This makes your posts seem like nonsense.

And those handful of folk around here who do remember James, don't really give a shit about what you think about him anyway.

Anth, here today, gone tomorrow.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 19:25:22 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Your post makes a lot of sense, Anth.
Message:
You don't understand the dynamics of the forum Carlos. It is ephemeral.

If you don't post for a week or two, everybody forgets about you.

Most people who read your post don't even know who this James character is you're talking about.

This makes your posts seem like nonsense.

And those handful of folk around here who do remember James, don't really give a shit about what you think about him anyway.

Anth, here today, gone tomorrow.


---

Unfortunately, since exposing Jim's 'Dark Side', or being willing to if bothered by him, was and is the only defense against his bullying tactics I've come up with. If you could suggest others (other than capitulation or going away, neither of which is going to happen), I'd love to feel I have a viable alternative to honest mickraking.

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Date: Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 19:59:14 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Advice on how to deal with Jim.
Message:
Hi Carlos,

Ignore him and he'll go away. For god's sake don't encourage him. We only just got rid of him.

At least, we thought we did, but as you can see, he's trying to make a comeback down below.

My plan is to trick him into a diabolical death that will either look like suicide or an accident. So I've publicly challenged him (see below) to eat six cream crackers without drinking anything. This will cause him to dehydrate, and the Peter Frampton songs will sap his will so much, he won't be able to make it to the fridge to get a drink.

Whaddya think Carlos?

Anth the senile.

PS. You weren't once known as 'The Jackal' were you? I may have met you.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:25:53 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Good advice, Anth. Don't know if I'm capable
Message:
Hi Carlos,

Ignore him and he'll go away. For god's sake don't encourage him. We only just got rid of him.

At least, we thought we did, but as you can see, he's trying to make a comeback down below.

My plan is to trick him into a diabolical death that will either look like suicide or an accident. So I've publicly challenged him (see below) to eat six cream crackers without drinking anything. This will cause him to dehydrate, and the Peter Frampton songs will sap his will so much, he won't be able to make it to the fridge to get a drink.

Whaddya think Carlos?

Anth the senile.

PS. You weren't once known as 'The Jackal' were you? I may have met you.


---

of totally ignoring him. Because of the thing I have about abuse, the best I can usually do is not let him get to me. Knowing that the way I do the 12 Steps will force me to pray for him, every day for up to 30 days if I cop a resentment against him, usually helps me not take it personally other than my feeling the need to stand up to him in order to not feel like I'm being a doormat for him.

Carlos the Jackal, the terrorist? Na, when I was political, in the '60s, it was mostly funding non violent anti Viet Nam goups. And at one of the smoke outs in DC a few of my buddies and myself paid some speed freaks to twisr up 10 keys of Panama Red (which I donated) that were given away free on the ellipse. Or that little park near the White House. On reflection, I don't really eecall which.

As to our knowing each other, it is certainly possible we met I lived in Denver for awile, in the winter of '74-'75, in a premie house on Race St. And I think I remember you saying in some post or other how you were involved with the Unity school? I believe I met everybody involved, tho I didn't really get to know Any of them.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:00:06 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: You gave way 10 keys at a peace demo??
Message:
Hi Carlos,

Ignore him and he'll go away. For god's sake don't encourage him. We only just got rid of him.

At least, we thought we did, but as you can see, he's trying to make a comeback down below.

My plan is to trick him into a diabolical death that will either look like suicide or an accident. So I've publicly challenged him (see below) to eat six cream crackers without drinking anything. This will cause him to dehydrate, and the Peter Frampton songs will sap his will so much, he won't be able to make it to the fridge to get a drink.

Whaddya think Carlos?

Anth the senile.

PS. You weren't once known as 'The Jackal' were you? I may have met you.


---

of totally ignoring him. Because of the thing I have about abuse, the best I can usually do is not let him get to me. Knowing that the way I do the 12 Steps will force me to pray for him, every day for up to 30 days if I cop a resentment against him, usually helps me not take it personally other than my feeling the need to stand up to him in order to not feel like I'm being a doormat for him.

Carlos the Jackal, the terrorist? Na, when I was political, in the '60s, it was mostly funding non violent anti Viet Nam goups. And at one of the smoke outs in DC a few of my buddies and myself paid some speed freaks to twisr up 10 keys of Panama Red (which I donated) that were given away free on the ellipse. Or that little park near the White House. On reflection, I don't really eecall which.

As to our knowing each other, it is certainly possible we met I lived in Denver for awile, in the winter of '74-'75, in a premie house on Race St. And I think I remember you saying in some post or other how you were involved with the Unity school? I believe I met everybody involved, tho I didn't really get to know Any of them.


---

Carlos,

You gave away 10 kilos at a Peace demo. Carlos, I apologise for everything I said about you. You deserve a Nobel Peace Prize.

Anth, who overslept and missed the coach to the demo at Grosvner Square in 68, or was it 67?

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:57:45 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: Hi Carlos
Message:
Take some time before responding to think about what you want to say.
We're in cyber space not a vacuum.

Carlos, I know you have integrity.

In all fairness, that email of Jim was hardly manevolent. It was just direct, matter of fact, and a challenge to the comments Jim has overheard in your posts.

This doesn't have to turn into a Jim 'expose'.

Most people on Ex-Prem have already have drawn their own conclusions about Jim's character. And exposing him to the premies is only 'preaching to the choir'. Personality bashing is a last resort. Talk to him, issue for issue or tell him you don't want to answer something, but I don't want to see you resort to that. I think you're above that. Start fresh!

Exposing some of his old posts may only make some of us wish he'd drop a line here more often.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:26:12 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I wish Jim would participate, in a
Message:
Take some time before responding to think about what you want to say.
We're in cyber space not a vacuum.

Carlos, I know you have integrity.

In all fairness, that email of Jim was hardly manevolent. It was just direct, matter of fact, and a challenge to the comments Jim has overheard in your posts.

This doesn't have to turn into a Jim 'expose'.

Most people on Ex-Prem have already have drawn their own conclusions about Jim's character. And exposing him to the premies is only 'preaching to the choir'. Personality bashing is a last resort. Talk to him, issue for issue or tell him you don't want to answer something, but I don't want to see you resort to that. I think you're above that. Start fresh!

Exposing some of his old posts may only make some of us wish he'd drop a line here more often.


---

civil way. If he could be there for Abi when she first got here, and help her 1/2 as much as her comments about him make clear she feels about how very helpful to her he was, then he's got a lot to offer when he isn't pushing his agenda.

But I don't trust him, when it comes to how he'll behave with me' 15 times burned, 30 times shy. So I broke out the biggest stick (to paraphrase Truman, NOT as a threat!) I could find, one based on irrefutable documentation he knows I can lay my hands on, and went public with it in the hopes he'll realize I'm serious.

But I really don't want to get into the muckraking game; I agree with you. And if he leaves me alone, both in private and here when he comes back, and if the responses in this thread continue to be ones I feel no need to go beyond what I stated in my reply to him, then I won't dig up the trash.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:43:32 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: I wish Jim would participate, in a
Message:
Why don't you ask him? You sorta brought that little incident on, yourself.

My suggestion is to leave a thread stating that you were still ruminating about the events and that you'll take some time to revise your statements and comments. A little acknowledgement goes a long way.

Fair? Afterall, Jim wasn't here, but he overheard (read) your posts.
You may want to reflect on the thoughts you arrived with and those thoughts you have now.

I have to admit, your posts sound radically different from the posts at PIA. You think for more yourself. Try communicating again. You have more tools now, you have experience dealing with oppostion, and some wicked posts to flaunt back in his face. Maybe, your interactions with Jim will look different in retrospect.

Go for it! Or ask for some time to think things over.

Bye Carlos, I got to study up!

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 20:59:46 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Happy, productive studying, Deb. No, I do
Message:
Why don't you ask him? You sorta brought that little incident on, yourself.

My suggestion is to leave a thread stating that you were still ruminating about the events and that you'll take some time to revise your statements and comments. A little acknowledgement goes a long way.

Fair? Afterall, Jim wasn't here, but he overheard (read) your posts.
You may want to reflect on the thoughts you arrived with and those thoughts you have now.

I have to admit, your posts sound radically different from the posts at PIA. You think for more yourself. Try communicating again. You have more tools now, you have experience dealing with oppostion, and some wicked posts to flaunt back in his face. Maybe, your interactions with Jim will look different in retrospect.

Go for it! Or ask for some time to think things over.

Bye Carlos, I got to study up!


---

not want a 'fresh start' with Jim. You were only defending a friend. He has behaved the way he did with me with others for years, I understand. I'll try to be fair. When he comes back if he is NOT verbally abusive of others for an extended period I'll quit 'putting that jacket' on him, as they say. But having earned a few jackets in my day I know you have to do the footwork to NOT be seen in one once you've made it for yourself.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:13:31 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: Happy, productive studying, Deb. No, I do
Message:
Actually I was defending you and your proven ability to diffuseas well as resolve misunderstandings.

p.s. I don't need to defend Jim. The guy does a good job by himself.

Anyhow, thanks for the homework support, take it easy.

Deborah

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 02:23:18 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I meant you were one of his defenders
Message:
Actually I was defending you and your proven ability to diffuseas well as resolve misunderstandings.

p.s. I don't need to defend Jim. The guy does a good job by himself.

Anyhow, thanks for the homework support, take it easy.

Deborah


---

when he got banned for a couple of days.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 18:53:11 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Hey Carlos...
Message:
Get off the racist pulpit, okay? Jim is not a racist.

Furthermore, go back to Lifes Great (sic) and talk with the premies who agree with you.

I'm getting pretty goddammed sick of you idiotic premies and your cult-think shit coming here to OUR forum and making stupid remarks about pointless issues.

Go away! You bother me.

Have a nice day, premieji.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 17:32:56 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: I meant you were one of his defenders
Message:
But you made the comment in the moment.

I guess you can say I was defending him, but from my perspective I was protesting the blatantly cowardly assertion that it was a post and not an email. I was really pissed off because nobody was challenging CD. People posting revealing emails and revealing posts is fair game. But people calling on thing another because they are weak is a different case. But that episode is over. And I've moved on.

But please Carlos, for your own sake and sensitivity, jim did not make a racial slur. It's just his sarcastic wit. It's difficult when you don't have a voice to go with posts. You imagine a voice. That voice you hear when you read his post may not be HIS voice. That's what we're saying to you here.

Jim has earned that respect. Yes, he's a bugger. NO one will argue. But your accusations are unnecessarily inflamed. Maybe you'll just have to trust me on this one. We live in the same town, I've met him.

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Date: Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 19:44:38 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: If I was Jewish and he'd talked about
Message:
But you made the comment in the moment.

I guess you can say I was defending him, but from my perspective I was protesting the blatantly cowardly assertion that it was a post and not an email. I was really pissed off because nobody was challenging CD. People posting revealing emails and revealing posts is fair game. But people calling on thing another because they are weak is a different case. But that episode is over. And I've moved on.

But please Carlos, for your own sake and sensitivity, jim did not make a racial slur. It's just his sarcastic wit. It's difficult when you don't have a voice to go with posts. You imagine a voice. That voice you hear when you read his post may not be HIS voice. That's what we're saying to you here.

Jim has earned that respect. Yes, he's a bugger. NO one will argue. But your accusations are unnecessarily inflamed. Maybe you'll just have to trust me on this one. We live in the same town, I've met him.


---

'moneygrubbers' it'd be more blatent. And I'm sorry to call someone you respect a racist. But 'sarcastic wit' using racial stereotyprs to demean someone is a racist use of wit.

All I initially did was respond to his unsolicited eMail publicly in an atempt to get him to leave me alone. If he does that I'll have no reason to dis him further.

Also, to Cynthia in the post above. I don't lay premie trips on people here. This is (or at least, in its earlier incarnation as F5, was) an important forum for Jim. So if I'm going to seek to stand up to him this is an apropriate forum to announce that. And my agenda is not to bring him down or drive him away. I just want him to quit acting like a bully, and I insist he behave apropriately towards me under pain of every reasonable, legal and morally acceptable pressure to require him to do so I can come up with.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:22:18 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: FA, my 2 replies disapeared and then
Message:
came back. How'd that happen? I'd love to believe it was just a glitch of some kind. Please respond.
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:48:04 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Carlos
Subject: I've been away for over 8 hours
Message:
and have just looked in again. I don't see how posts can disappear and then re-appear. If someone is responsible for this, there will be an execution at dawn.
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 16:51:54 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Mind you
Message:
before I get the gallows out and get the rope ready, there could be a simple explanation. Sometimes with Hotboards, it gets 'tired' and if your computer has not been rebooted recently, it will bring up a previous cached version without the updated posts.

Clicking Refresh or Reload will bring everything back again but you really need to reboot your computer to get everything back to normal.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 21:08:06 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Don't see how they could show after I
Message:
before I get the gallows out and get the rope ready, there could be a simple explanation. Sometimes with Hotboards, it gets 'tired' and if your computer has not been rebooted recently, it will bring up a previous cached version without the updated posts.

Clicking Refresh or Reload will bring everything back again but you really need to reboot your computer to get everything back to normal.


---

posted them and then not show, later, when I come back after visiting another site or 2. But it does sound more plausible than a hacker storing them in order to put them back later to F88k with my mind... tho that is probably doable.

Anyway, I am satisfied by tour response, as I hoped and expected to be, that it wasn't censorship. Thabx, Sir D.

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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 23:01:34 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: All
Subject: possible shift in strategies?
Message:
I've noticed over the last one and a half years since I've been posting, that there has been an incredible amount of information put out on the EPO.

It really is amazing to see how much has been exposed, and hopefully will be continued to be exposed.

Information can certainly be helpful.

Many great dialogs and observations have been posted here, which I think has helped many people.

I'm wondering, now that so much has been assembled, from so many diverse and credible sources, if some sort of strategy could be developed and posted somewhere that would outline the different ways that interested people could contact the different media outlets about the Captains's wherabouts...

Things like: media coverage before programs or tours, cable access spots, radio spots, local newspaper contacts and how to find them,possible authors to write a magazine article etc.
(Is there a book about how to do this?)

It seems that an incredible body of useful information has been assembled here.

It seems to me that we could gather different ways together to help people with a little bit of spare time to get the EPO site out at appropriate times to potential media contacts.

Maybe it could be an ongoing list, posted somewhere on EPO or here...

Comments?...

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 23:01:51 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Re: possible shift in strategies?
Message:
There are usually cult watch groups in all major cities who can be told. If they are any good they already have contacts with the local media.
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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 12:02:07 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Re: possible shift in strategies?
Message:
laex,

I will want to get in contact with you when Rawat again holds a program in the United States. When a program is announced, I think some off-forum discussion should take place.

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 06:18:42 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: a news/publicity committee
Message:
form a news and publicity committe with updated press releases/announcements, web press kits, and info links to epo, here, and the other pertinent sites. whenever there's an upcoming scheduled event, email every major network tele channel and newspaper in that city, first finding out the names of the appropriate editors and top reporters, if they are listed on their websites. As Deb suggested, start a monthly newsletter. Suggest this newsletter could be emailed to a contact list of all the major newspapers and television + radio talk-show stations in the countries where m. has any activities, and keep expanding the contact list. For example, 60 Minutes, Dateline, Howard Stern and similar tv shows might be interested, if the initial contact and presentation are good.

provide the newspapers with emails for referrals to responsible, informed people with good communications skills, r.e. answering questions, making statements. Have a list of exes for this purpose who not only speak English, but French, Spanish, Italian, German, Hindi, Dutch, Danish, Danish, Swedish, Latvian [haha] etc. Write to the tax divisions of US, Canadian, British, Indian, and Australian govts with requests to audit and investigate the expenditure and alleged diversions of non-profit donations. Demand total disclosure of all cult funds. In the USA, anyone who donated money to EVI within the last 3 years can demand that EVI provide a full and detailed accounting [financial statements] of how much money was raised, and how it was spent, or where it went. and so forth.

People with print media, tv/radio, public relations, and good reporting/research/writing and organizational skills. Have enough enthusiastic and committed skilled people involved so it does not become a burden on any one person. Apportion and rotate the assignments/roles by field, skills, and language. network regularly r.e. progress, etc.

would require a consistent commitment of people's time.

If anyone has video documentary skills, an ex-premie vid could air free on community cable access television stations.

that's about it, for starters.

Line up volunteer demonstrators with signs in cities scheduling tour events.

Recommended key cities with a cult base to focus on: LA, New York, Miami, Washington, London, Paris, Copenhagen, Amsterdam, [New] Delhi, SF/Oakland, Boston, Chicago, Denver, Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Madrid, Berlin, Vienna, Roma, Rio, Mexico City, Buenos Aires, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Singapore, Mauritius, Katmandu, Seattle, Malibu, Dallas, Houston, Philadelphia, Frankfurt/Mainz, Auckland, Brussels, Dublin, Athens, Barcelona, Geneva, Hamburg, Bonn, Atlanta, Kuala Lumpur, Stockholm, Kaohsiung, Santiago, Caracas, and Johannesburg.

It would take some initial research to develop the list of contacts, then update and expand that list.

develop strategies for media targeting each tour event, and anywhere where there are satellite event up/downlinks.

develop tactics for media contacts, follow-through, response for each event.

Remember, m and EVI depend on cash to continue -- 95% of the money comes from N. America and Europe. Superstitious, guru-trad populous India is still the heaviest recruiting area for aspirants, so that is key, too. Consequently, there's a need for some Indian ex-premie volunteers.

+ any time m. schedules a public appearance, have a cream-pie brigade ready for action. + some guerilla street theatre.

Utilize any and all germane skills learned from years of doing propagation and video events!

Spread da ex-premie kn. to every land - grass-roots approach!

...slam-dunk! = no more magic carpet ride or G-5!

will require a small group of committed volunteers with related skills.

Good Luck to whomever goes for it! Post updates and announcements on the forum - esp when more volunteers are needed, and in advance asap whenever any tour event is announced.

[hey, m, Whittaker et al, you just gotta be lovin' these ideas, too, huh?!]

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 08:07:04 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Count me in for the street warfare(nt).
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001 at 23:20:50 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: la-ex
Subject: Re: possible shift in strategies?
Message:
Hi La-ex,

The topic was raised in a thread the other day for suggestions.
I would like to see a monthly newsletter. The newsletter could be developments on EPO, as well as Maha's destinations and propagation plans.

We could lay out the newsletter with the following documents:

Best of Forum
Worst of Forum
Interesting posts and the dates and times and threads
New exes (if they agree)
New journeys (again, upon agreement)
Gossip Column
Media developments and contacts

Tips:

*Which posts to avoid and why
*How to avoid flaming
*etc.
*********************************************************************

Regarding Maha:

His agenda: This could track his destinations and propagation strategy
His Satsang: What the heck is he saying now?
His revisions: The latest spin-doctoring and denial stuff

**********************************************************************

If you are interested in talking with me in detail, please feel free to email me. See above

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 11:37:56 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: continuing strategies...
Message:
A few thoughts about these 'media' ideas:

1)I like the idea of a monthly update newsletter type of thing.
I think it would have to be simple, and not take too much time, for it to work.
Possibly someone could collect any 'Best OF' references during the month, along with new 'current events' concerninng m's whereabouts, and comments on his latest 'spin-sangs' ....questions, comments,and comparisons with old 'spin-sangs'...
Also, I love the idea of 'M-funnies' for it.
I guess it could be compiled online and printed out for anyone who wants to share it with others.

But I do think it would have to be easy to manage, or it would probably fall away after a few months or so...

2)Concernig media contacts:

Once again, I think any strategy would have to be very simply outlined and easy to execute.
I'm thinking that if it were simple enough, anyone with an hour or two in the week before an upcoming program with m could use that small amount of time to send out e-mails and phone calls to a few well placed media contacts in that area.

If this was something that really worked, I think that people who really want to see maharaji take some heat on these issues might possibly find it more valuable to spend an hour/week on something that actually accomplished something, rather than venting on the forum...
(I'm not suggesting that people not post, or that posting anything is not helpful.
Just suggesting that we could take this extensive body of knowledge and put it to some very effective and productive uses.)

Bottom line:
I believe anything devised has to simple, easy to use and effective for anyone who wants to implement it.

I will be researching possible books and online references on this today.

Anyone have ideas on where to start?

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Date: Tues, Jul 24, 2001 at 17:17:24 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: la-ex
Subject: Re: continuing strategies...
Message:
I agree with all your points. Email me please.
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