Birthday God -:- Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:21:43 (EDT)

Peg -:- request for support -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:18:18 (EDT)

jondon -:- what happened -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:30:03 (EDT)

__ la-ex -:- can you elaborate on... -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:38:28 (EDT)

Salam -:- Janet -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:38:26 (EDT)

__ janet -:- Re: Janet -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:32:48 (EDT)

__ __ Bin Liner -:- That's a great post Janet -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:14:07 (EDT)

__ Salam -:- sheesh, forgot the url -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:40:34 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- Re: sheesh, forgot the url -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:40:29 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: What a story, Janet! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:27:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ janet -:- do one for your history. -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:44:50 (EDT)

Passing Through -:- Honesty test -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:05:20 (EDT)

__ janet -:- Re: Honesty test -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:50:46 (EDT)

__ Nigel -:- YO TURNER!!!! - Own up.. it's you, isn't it?? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:44:50 (EDT)

__ bill-pehaps you should analyze -:- some of your own sentences [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:58:24 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- It depends on what that means -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:56:37 (EDT)

__ such -:- I am [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:52:07 (EDT)

__ Selene -:- can't do it with a simple I disagree -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:13:44 (EDT)

__ Abi -:- critical thinking vs individualism -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:29:22 (EDT)

__ __ PatC b) -:- Re: critical thinking vs individualism -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 16:57:37 (EDT)

__ __ Passikng Through -:- Welcome Abi. -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:42:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Are you just pretending to not understand? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:59:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- he/she doesn't care -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:17:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- I think therefore I am an ex-premie -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:57:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Library open -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:08:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- try reading then! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:24:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Over and out (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:38:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- I'm too busy reading you! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:37:37 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Individualism? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 07:37:29 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- Collectivism? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:19:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- needs attention from Rawat -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:49:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Ah Abi, you are a soul -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:14:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- now that's what I call a zen answer -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:31:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Briefly to Abi -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:49:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Hey PT -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 10:09:33 (EDT)

__ Dave -:- Re: Honesty test -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 06:52:57 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- Go for it Dave (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:20:23 (EDT)

__ PatC -:- Honesty test - I disagree too -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:17:13 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- Thank you PatC -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:22:41 (EDT)

Jim -:- Alright! My proposed nominee has accepted! -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:00:40 (EDT)

__ la-ex -:- On second thought Jim, how about... -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:56:06 (EDT)

__ la-ex -:- Great, but what premie will volunteer -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:50:38 (EDT)

__ __ la-ex -:- On third thought, Jim... -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:01:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- A fourth and last thought, Jim -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:11:41 (EDT)

__ PatC b) -:- See, it pays to be lovable like you -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:41:15 (EDT)

__ Danny -:- My Nominations -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:32:15 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- Re: My Nominations -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 05:20:09 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- My update on LG -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:37:13 (EDT)

__ Zelda -:- Yup. [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:32:09 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: Alright! My proposed nominee has accepted! -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:29:35 (EDT)

__ __ me again -:- Sure! [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:35:16 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- BB is ok by me (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:14:01 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Your votes please? (Exes only) [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:11:12 (EDT)

__ __ Bryn -:- Sounds Good.OK. (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:54:52 (EDT)

__ __ Loaf -:- no problem [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:26:33 (EDT)

__ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Yes. -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 07:13:32 (EDT)

__ __ Silvia -:- Sure: Sounds great. NT -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 23:27:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Yes [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 01:05:55 (EDT)

__ __ Selene -:- go for it -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 21:48:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ Ian Dury -:- He sounds perfect, Jim, -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 01:11:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: He sounds perfect, Jim, -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:56:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Ulf -:- yes. nt, -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:31:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry the contrarian -:- NO (NT) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:30:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- ok,other nominations, folks? [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:46:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Exactly. If not Beyerstein, who? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:49:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- If Beyerstein is up for it then he's the man -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:38:47 (EDT)

Deborah -:- Dalai lama's Advice -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 18:56:19 (EDT)

__ such -:- like perjury,pimping,aiding hitmen's flight [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 21:48:21 (EDT)

Deborah -:- Can we have ID's? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 18:32:50 (EDT)

__ Selene -:- Re: Can we have ID's?????? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 19:50:28 (EDT)

__ __ Forum God +) -:- No -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:36:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ Forum God +) -:- Passing Through is -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:58:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Abi -:- not another Aussi bloke! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:13:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Passing Through is not -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:48:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- If 'Mala' is also 'Passing through'.. -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 22:17:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- like,'No cheat, no deceit' right! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:50:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Passing a nasty turd -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:14:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Tony -:- Not a blade of grass -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:58:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- My answer to PatC -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:26:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Dermot Munmot -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:51:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- sp: 'deceive' duhhh (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 22:20:02 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Can we have ID's? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:34:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ Passing Through -:- Sure Deborah. -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:30:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- what I meant -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 21:28:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Give up Selene. -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:34:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- give up reading your spam? ok -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:11:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: give up reading your spam? ok -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 16:54:04 (EDT)

Stonor -:- Sandy: Nat'l Geo-4 pgs on Farm (OT) -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 13:57:35 (EDT)

Sir Dave -:- Premie wisdom and tradition -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:17:10 (EDT)

__ janet -:- and they call US hateful???? [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 05:35:48 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- Here's more 'premie wisdom' -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 16:44:26 (EDT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Jeez, Richard -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:40:39 (EDT)

__ __ PatC -:- More 'premie wisdom' and love - not -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:20:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Re: More 'premie wisdom' and love - not -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:37:13 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- i.e. oxy-Moron [or maybe Big Mac attack]! [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 15:20:05 (EDT)

__ don puerco -:- Re: Premie wisdom and tradition -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 12:01:22 (EDT)

salam -:- good on you charles -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 10:05:11 (EDT)

__ Silvia -:- Re: good on you charles -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 17:47:21 (EDT)

Abi -:- A challenge for CW and other premies -:- Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 22:01:30 (EDT)

__ CW -:- No Contest -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 04:11:07 (EDT)

__ __ Abi -:- hmmm -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:10:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: hmmm -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:16:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Abi -:- double hmmm -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:48:07 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Oh-me-gawd! -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 09:51:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Who is talking to you? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:15:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ MrT -:- I is talking to you -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 02:31:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- what a gentleman -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 07:49:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- The Mother Statement? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 13:08:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: The Mother Statement? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 17:21:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: The Mother Statement? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:30:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Oh-me-gawd! -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:03:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Abi, I told you once I'd do almost anything -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 14:34:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Care to explore that delicate point, Carlos? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 19:12:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Jim, I prefer not to have my -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:34:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC b) -:- You called, Carlos? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:32:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Maharaji's responsibility -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 17:36:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Maharaji's responsibility -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 18:14:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Careful you don't look a gift weasel in the mouth [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:10:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ salam -:- why? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 09:54:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: why???? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 10:23:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- No more . That's it. -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:23:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ OK -:- Re: No more . That's it. -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 12:24:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Above post from me to Cynthia -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 12:26:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, you! That's right, YOU! -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:32:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Glad you're back n/t [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 13:28:55 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- So this is what it comes to .. -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 08:56:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: So this is what it comes to .. -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:25:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Who are you? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:52:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- LOL! -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:05:52 (EDT)

__ __ Abi -:- ? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 06:22:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: ? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:27:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: ? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:45:45 (EDT)

__ such -:- Jagdeo? probably rotting in some rawrat-hole [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 04:09:38 (EDT)

Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:21:43 (EDT) From: Birthday God Email: None To: All Subject: Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!! Message:

Perhaps the Birthday Goddess got banned or forget the day or didn't know the day or retired or maybe I missed seeing the announcement. Disculta's 50 birthday was Thursday. Many happy returns!!!!!!

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:18:18 (EDT) From: Peg Email: None To: All Subject: request for support Message:

I have recently been looking at the ex- premie site in detail... obsessively in fact. Before this I have glanced briefly and only seen things about Maharaji being rich. However since I read what Michael Dettmers has said about alcohol and sex and secrecy it is as if my whole thinking of the last 28 years has been rearranged. At the moment I am not talking about this to anyone,not premies or ex-premies or people who have never been involved. One thing that scares me about posting on here is that some of the messages do seem to be venomous about Maharaji and premies and I am not sure where I stand at the moment. What I (of course) would like is to talk to someone close to Maharaji who feels honest but i don't really expect that. Anyway I have never really been a frontliner and am not close to anyone like that. So I am putting this out in the hopes of having a conversation with someone as that usually works with me to get my feelings clearer. Anyway here's hoping..

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:30:03 (EDT) From: jondon Email: None To: All Subject: what happened Message:

Wow, go away for a couple of months and the whole cyberworld has changed. I got some info. on the reason for the change on this site from JD, but it seems to much for me to try to comprehend. I came back from the west coast to greet the Lord of the Universe in person back here in Massachusetts, but he is a no show this weekend. I guess that Dave Mancophf does'nt have the juice he pretends to have, what with rubbing elbows with the Rawat Clan and all. And he was so sure that it was confirmed. Nice call Dave. A recent visit to these parts by Dave Snider (?) and his lovely wife revealed some tidbits about the K-Lite DVD and some of the stuff she tried to do with it but could'nt, interesting. I should be getting more info on that soon. I have a couple of friends attending the K-Lite retreat in August. A couple of fence sitters who have now become ex's but haven't let on. We should get some audio from this and maybe more. I will bid all adieu. This site just does'nt seem the same. I will check in occasionally but will still be posting on AG, as always, under my original handle. Stay tuned, this August 11th shindig should prove eventful. Bye to all, jondon

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:38:28 (EDT) From: la-ex Email: None To: jondon Subject: can you elaborate on... Message:

Jondon- Can you elaborate on: 1-the k-lite dvd that you talked about. 2-the Aug 11 k-lite retreat? Thanks, la-ex

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:38:26 (EDT) From: Salam Email: it-is-soau@yahoo.com.au To: All Subject: Janet Message:

I just thought to mention that in the name list, on it-is-so, your name is linked to the page that you requested published. check here I've made it clear to all the charlies that the author of the page is the rightful copyright owner. If anyone is interested in having a rap posted about them, my e-mail is up.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:32:48 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Salam Subject: Re: Janet Message:

cool. yess , i checked it yesterday when you posted the link. you know, i found composing my 'knowledge resumé' more powerful than anything i have done as an ex to date. I came to realize, as i poured it out, that it hit me for the first time, how many years i was crushed down in the premie world, with repeated put downs to keep me believing that i was 'bongos', not worthy, a piece of shit, a lowly nothing, that i had to try harder, that i should feel bad for the way i did or didn't do things i wa asked to or told to-- and i realized, as i wrote it, that i was rising up in explosion of self value, to destroy once and for all that continuing premie campaign of grinding down my self esteem. take a good look at the things they keep saying about us!! charles' site? Pia's? Elan Vital?? Look at how they do it right now, in present day!! The more I wrote about my 'knowledge resumé', the more it dawned on me that , goddamnit-- I was NOT some sniveling little pathetic urchin, scuttling around the furtive edges of the mighty, shining castle, begging for scraps at the back door!! I was right THERE, in the thick of it, where the ACTION was! I had Maharaji walk me through Heathrow and escort me into England personally, the first day I met him, and I was there for him and no other reason. I was there, in the depths of New York City, at the ashram, in the bowery, on the streets of midtown manhattan, in the trains, in the restaurant smack in the center of grand central, fifth avenue, times square and the public library, living it. I went out fearlessly into the new york city public maelstrom and stood my ground and blazed what i had found into people's eyes and ears, hearts and souls, against all their new york city hardass walls of denial and avoidance. And dammit, I got through to them, despite their pretenses of being 'too busy'. I EARNED my Knowledge rank, the RAW way. How many of these bashers who speak of us in such dismissive terms ever laid themselves out for the cause as nakedly as I did? I'll be DAMNED if i'll let some snotty, cold, prissy, judgemental, fake little shit hide behind their precious Elan Vital prim façade, and call ME 'confused'. Let's see them do what i did! Let's see them live hmeless in NYC and count on nothing but Grace to protect them! Let's see them stand out in midtown at lunch hour and get people's genuine attention by the sheer strength of their radiance and conviction and genuine experience!! COME ON. I DARE them to prove their realization the way i did! I was in Denver for Maharaji's wedding. Damned straight I was. That's why i went and I witnessed the legendary 7 programs leading up to it. I was THERE when rainbow grocery went from our private co-op, to a public and countrywide chain to show america how a business COULD be. I STILL have yet to see another health food chain of stores that can operate with the consciousness that WE had. WIld Oats sure as hell ain't it! GNC? Name me one! WE were IT! I KNOW what we had. I KNOW what knowledge had. I mean to shut these mealy mouthed lying bastards up once and for all. I walked my talk. I lived it 100%. No one is gonna tell me I don't know what Knowledge can do. I know. I once took a resuméwriting seminar, and they told us before we got started, that we probably had never made so much focused effort to think of ourselves in such positive, affirmative, valuable terms before, and that we were going to be surprised by the time we were done with the course. I never understood that until i wrote mine in Knowledge. I urge each of you to try writing your own 'knowledge resumé's'. it's different from your journey. the journey is more of an emotional evolution. your resume is more of a matter of your value, dignity, pride, fact of presence and valid membership. Do it with intent to destroy once and for all the claims that you must not have understood, or practiced, or really given yourself to it, or only hung around the edges pretending to be part of it. After having written mine, I told salam i wanted it to go up exactly the way it was written. I want them to see it. Let's see Charles Glasser go stand out on the sidewalk in midtown Manhattan at lunchtime and personally look into the eyes of thousands of strangers treaming past him in a bug hurry to get somewhere, and let's see HIM stop them in their tracks with the sheer compelling truth in his voice, the blazing holiness in his face, the heart-stopping compassion radiating from his soul and the complete absence of fear in his demeanor. I DID IT, CHARLES. 24-7 IN MIDTOWN, WITH NOTHING BUT MY EXPERIENCE, AND I CHANGED THE COURSE OF PEOPLE'S LIVES. LET'S SEE YOU DO IT NOW. Put up or shut up.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:14:07 (EDT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: janet Subject: That's a great post Janet Message:

Exactly how it was at maximum intensity . Glasser doesn't know what he's missing. It would do his ego a power of good too if he could just get out there in his spare time , say a couple of evenings a week with a pile of Divine Times & tell people face to face that the Lord is here . Why not ? We did.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:40:34 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: Salam Subject: sheesh, forgot the url Message:

cut and paste, saves me time. http://www.geocities.com/it_is_soau/who/minijourney/janet.html

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:40:29 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Salam Subject: Re: sheesh, forgot the url Message:

don't call them 'mini-journeys'. that diminishes them in language that reduces them to something small and negligible. let's call them our 'knowledge resumé's'. make em objective and factual and powerful. we all know where we went, what we did, who we worked with, why we did it. refute lies with facts. rebut smears with dignity. confound libel with realities. stand up for yourselves and speak out who you are.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:27:35 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Salam Subject: Re: What a story, Janet! Message:

Salam, thanks for that post. Janet: That's a whole other side of the premiedom, and what an ugly side, indeed. I never saw shit like that first hand. Amazing that you could have been that close and important to Maha at one time only to later suffer senseless, thoughtless humility. Truly Amazing. p.s. I'm glad you're here.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:44:50 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Deborah Subject: do one for your history. Message:

watch what happens to your self esteem as you see your actions in a whole new light. not shame. ferocious value.knowing who you are. fatal blows to the empire. join me. have a taste of it. lifechanging. write yours.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:05:20 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: All Subject: Honesty test Message:

Abi says that 'individualism is the refuge of the irresponsible'. I could hardly disagree more. What do you think? I'm interested to see whether this is a common ex opinion or not. A simple 'I agree' or 'I don't agree' as the subject heading will make for a quick conclusion. PT

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:50:46 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Honesty test Message:

i think she was citing it in illustration of those who trot it out everytime they are cornered in their own cavalier immorality. i think both are necessary to adult maturing. one needs to know both the definition of one's sovereign and personal individuality and one's inextricable answerability to the whole. One cannot exist apart from it. the answer is 'both/and', not either/or.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:44:50 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co,uk To: Passing Through Subject: YO TURNER!!!! - Own up.. it's you, isn't it?? Message:

You have been stringing us along all this time.. (I have the negatives) I asked you whther you were the original 'Passing Through'. You didn't reply. Maybe embarassed because you were that PT, or otherwise reluctant to admit who you previously posted here as...? I'm not sure - but maybe if Turner is reading he/she will show up to deny such a sordid accusation...? Correct me if I am wrong, PT, but it looks bloody obvious to me. Yours in His Grace etc..

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:58:24 (EDT) From: bill-pehaps you should analyze Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: some of your own sentences [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:56:37 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: It depends on what that means Message:

The way that phrase makes sense to me is exactly the way I think Abi intended it. Take David Andersen for example. Yet another premie trying to avoid any discussion about Maharaji or Knowledge on the basis that he, David, is an 'individual' and thus no one could ever know anything significant about what his so-called 'experience' is who Maharaji is to him. That kind of individualism is bullshit. It's as dumb as saying that I had sex last night and there's NO WAY anyone on the planet could ever understand what that was like for me. Sure, you could understand. We could talk about it. As much as there's so much room for variety in personalities and the like, there are some common aspects to the experience. That's just one example; I'm sure we could think of millions. So, in that sense, individualism's just what Abi said, essentially a hiding place.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:52:07 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: I am [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:13:44 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: can't do it with a simple I disagree Message:

You told me to 'give it up ' IN A POST BELOW. NO ONE IS FORCING YOUR DAZZLING BRAIN TO READ MY POSTS AT LEAST SOMEONE KNOWS WHEN IT'S ME AND THEREFORE CAN CHOOSE TO READ ME OR NOT fuckface lying creep that you are why do not you get lost you stinkpile of shit There. Honest enough for you? SC Crumpet MW Marolyn Ezekial whoever else you are you sicko freak? I'm sick of you I wish you were blocked from here for good There, honest enough for you? Bite my what you called a fat ass

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:29:22 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: critical thinking vs individualism Message:

By individualism I am thinking of the way that certain premies, when challenged about the possibility they might be in a cult, refer to their own personal experience as a way of passing through (or avoiding) some of the more problematic criticisms made by people who think there is something a bit exploitative about the cult. Some premies just try and terminate discussions with ex's by saying that they have a pleasant experience with Maharaji as if that was really the issue. It's almost like saying I like buying Nike products, they make me feel good, so why should I care about how Nike make their things. By individualism I do not mean the ability to practice critical thinking which is what I think Pat C thinks I mean. I just don't think that thinking ever happens in a vacuum and that the tools we use to think critically come from the world around us, the conversations we have with other people, the words we read, how we are trained to process information. I think there is something very paradoxical about the way that a sort of slick feel-good American individualism has become part of the EV ethos ('it's about you', it's about having fun, enjoying life, etc) when on the other hand it is also about having a Master, kissing his feet and the rest of the Hindu thing. Also, I think that the idea that every premie has this deep personal connection with Maharaji and that no-one can ever really articulate what that special connection is, is a little bit spooky. In fact I think the whole idea of kissing someones feet and thinking they are God is a bit spooky and it is ironic that the rhetoric of individualism is used to defend what looks like a form of brainswashing and fundamentalism. But then how else to describe it? Abi who thinks Nike are exploitative.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 16:57:37 (EDT) From: PatC b) Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: critical thinking vs individualism Message:

That American individualism taken ad absurdum is nauseating and manifests as road rage where drivers shoot you if you honk at them. I'm not sure why you mentioned me because I did not disagree with you. Perhaps better words to describe Rawat and his gurupies is ''solipsism'' or ''narcissism.'' I am constantly astonished and disgusted by the premie trolls who post here. Another word that comes to mind is ''antisocial.'' The worst seem to be bordering on sociopathy.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:42:09 (EDT) From: Passikng Through Email: None To: Abi Subject: Welcome Abi. Message:

Thanks for jumping on the Nike bandwagon, we do need your support. I appreciate your reference to Nologo. But you did say 'individualism is the refuge of the irresponsible'. And yet you just used the phrase 'I think' five times in seven paragraphs. Give it up! We all behave like gods. PT

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:59:18 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Passikng Through Subject: Are you just pretending to not understand? Message:

What's with you, PT? I read her explanation and it made perfect sense to me. Perfect. Yet you, the one who raised the issue to begin with, seem to miss all of it. You premies ... You can see why I'm so into this panel thing. There's just no talking with you guys.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:17:26 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: he/she doesn't care Message:

PT understands exactly what he/she is doing. And all the attention this troll is getting is absurd. The persona twists Abi's words. PT, a deep thinker indeed. Meanwhile PT is defending and following Maharaji. A view much more honestly presented is in this post: Here's more premie wisdom

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:57:34 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Passikng Through Subject: I think therefore I am an ex-premie Message:

oh, yawn. I just tried to explain that when we think we do so within a CONTEXT which includes a multiplicity of other thoughts. Thought doesn't happen in a vacuum. Read James Joyce's Ulysses and then maybe you'll get an idea. Descartes said 'I think therefore I am' and he certainly didn't think he was a God now did he, given that he was the philosopher of the Englightenment and all..

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:08:18 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Abi Subject: Library open Message:

My copy of Ulysses is 780 pages! Rene Descartes was famously wrong. Leaves don't think and they are. Maybe 'the philospoher of the Enlightenment and all', certainly not 'an enlightened philosopher'!

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:24:21 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: try reading then! Message:

So, just go and read it again. Do you think Bloom needed to recieve Knowledge? Yes, RD has been criticised for creating a mind/body split etc etc. But some of that criticism is wrong. Hiedgger said 'Questioning is the piety of thought' How do you define thought? Why are you scared of your mind Passing Through? Or: what is wrong with your mind?

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:38:50 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Abi Subject: Over and out (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:37:37 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Abi Subject: I'm too busy reading you! Message:

How do you define thought? Ideas. Why are you scared of your mind Passing Through? I have already told you I'm not. Or: what is wrong with your mind? Working fine, a little forgetful but otherwise a great source of pleasure. PT

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 07:37:29 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Individualism? Message:

As a member of a religious cult which discourages thought, questions and criticism, and sees the human mind as some kind of distraction from the soul, you're not really qualified to lecture us on 'individualism'. You are a cult zombie, incapable of thinking straight. I can prove it. What are your masters biggest faults? (I can hear you squirm from here.) Anth the brainwashed clone.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:19:25 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: AJW Subject: Collectivism? Message:

AJW says: As a member of a religious cult which discourages thought, I OBJECT: Thoughts are fine in their place. AJW:questions PT: answers are better than questions AJW: and criticism PT: aren't we criticizing 'questions and criticism' AJW: and sees the human mind as some kind of distraction from the soul PT: Hooray AJW, you've got. The mind is 'some kind of distraction from the soul'! That's why I practice Knowledge. AJW: you're not really qualified to lecture us on 'individualism'. PT: In this Forum, I'm a persecuted minority. AJW: You are a cult zombie, incapable of thinking straight. I can prove it. PT: Yes AJW: What are your masters biggest faults? PT: That he doesn't pay enough attention to me. AWL: (I can hear you squirm from here.) PT: I'm not getting off. Anth the brainwashed clone. Passing the phone

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:49:47 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: needs attention from Rawat Message:

Define soul. Define mind. (Without resorting to your own individual experience) Explain why mind is a distraction from the soul. Explain why you are scared of your own mind and why you need more attention from your Master Guru Maharaji aka The Lord of the Universe aka a pilot called Rawat. And if all this Hindu anti-mind stuff really works how come India is such a mess. How come all the Hindu anti-mind stuff hasn't changed the caste system, the horrific treatment of women and children etc. Long live the Enlightenment btw PT that was when religious superstitions were recognised as irrational. It happened several hundred years ago. Religion is the opium of the people, premies have nothing to lose but their chains and I'm off to bed because I've got a nasty chest infection. spam away yawn

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:14:59 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Abi Subject: Ah Abi, you are a soul Message:

Define soul. The thing inside. Define mind. The little voice inside Explain why mind is a distraction from the soul. Mind is a little voice that interrupts. Explain why you are scared of your own mind I am not and why you need more attention from your Master Guru Maharaji aka The Lord of the Universe aka a pilot called Rawat. I don't need it. But it's always nice. PT And if all this Hindu anti-mind stuff really works how come India is such a mess. How come all the Hindu anti-mind stuff hasn't changed the caste system, the horrific treatment of women and children etc. Long live the Enlightenment btw PT that was when religious superstitions were recognised as irrational. It happened several hundred years ago. Religion is the opium of the people, premies have nothing to lose but their chains and I'm off to bed because I've got a nasty chest infection. spam away yawn You asks these questions because you know they cannot be adequately answered.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:31:46 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: now that's what I call a zen answer Message:

So soul is the thing inside? And mind is that little voice inside. Why is it a little voice? Doesn't the soul have a voice? Do they have a problem with each other? Who told you that? Why is it all inside? What's outside then? Other peoples minds, souls? Or do they just stay inside too? How do we communicate? With what? Is your soul speaking to me or is your mind? But ow can they if they just stay inside? Do they come out to play sometimes? I asked those other questions hoping that you would offer a half-way intelligent and HONEST answer. But maybe you can answer some of these new questions in a less Zen manner?

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:49:16 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Abi Subject: Briefly to Abi Message:

So soul is the thing inside? And mind is that little voice inside. Why is it a little voice? It isn't very loud. Doesn't the soul have a voice? I don't think so. Do they have a problem with each other? No. Who told you that? I made it up. Why is it all inside? I don't understand.. What's outside then? The rest of the universe. Other peoples minds, souls? Or do they just stay inside too? How do we communicate? Just like this. With what? What ever is available. Is your soul speaking to me or is your mind? It's my mind but influenced by my soul. But ow can they if they just stay inside? Do they come out to play sometimes? I'm out playing most of the time. I asked those other questions hoping that you would offer a half-way intelligent and HONEST answer. I hope your satisfied. But maybe you can answer some of these new questions in a less Zen manner? Is the Pope catholic?

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 10:09:33 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Hey PT Message:

I started a 'Golden opportunity' thread over on LG. Any contribution from you? Cheers Dermot

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 06:52:57 (EDT) From: Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Honesty test Message:

Hardly. I never really fitted in to being a premie because I was too individualistic to fit into the group. Ask any of my old ashram premie buddies, wherever they are. I'm off to the beach now so you can spam all you like till I get back.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:20:23 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Dave Subject: Go for it Dave (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:17:13 (EDT) From: PatC Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Honesty test - I disagree too Message:

Deceitful and cowardly anonymity is the refuge of the irresponsible.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:22:41 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: PatC Subject: Thank you PatC Message:

Non sequitor

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:00:40 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Alright! My proposed nominee has accepted! Message:

Just got email back from Dr. Barry Beyerstein, a psychologist at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver. Dr. Beyerstein, who is, among other things, a director of CSICOP (The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims Of the Paranormal) and a really nice guy to boot has agreed to participate on the panel I've proposed. Dr. Beyerstein, if any of you recall, is also head of the BC Skeptics Society and was, by coincidence, the guy the French government emissary consulted with regarding cults and the law. I posted a his own proposed cult checklist a few months ago and now remember that JM actually put it up permanently on EPO. I put the URL in the link slot on this post. Haven't tried this before so, just in case, here's the address of the page itself: http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/cultchecklst.htm Barry's brother, Dale, interestingly enough, is the author of a book exposing Sai Baba which you can find online here and there. I retained Barry recently as an expert in a case I did and found him really wonderful to work with. He's sharp and sincere and extremely generous with his time. I explained that the ex's could pay up to $10,000 U.S. for his service (less my commission) and he didn't quibble with the money. What a guy, huh? No, seriously, he's more than willing to participate freely as a public service. I called him after I got his email and talked about the process a bit. He likes my idea of letting the panel control their own process. He explained, in fact, that that's like the model that James Randi's offered for his own million dollar challenge for proof of the paranormal. Challengers and Randi agree to appoint a mutual acceptable third party who then determines the actual process for testing those claims. What could be fairer than that? Anyway, I can't imagine how we'd every find a better candidate than Barry. Mind you, he's just my nominee. Perhaps someone has someone else in mind. It'd be good, though, if you guys do agree that he'd be suitable, if you could say so early so that we can then throw the ball into the premies' court and see who, if anyone, wants to play. [ Barry Beyerstein's cult checklist ]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:56:06 (EDT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Jim Subject: On second thought Jim, how about... Message:

how about if there are no premie reps that step forward, we e-mail well known high profile premies to volunteer? People like Charles Cameron, Joan Apter, Mitch Ditkoff, John Miller, John Hampton, David Smith, Tim Gallwey (my personal choice), the psychologist (Alvaro?), Glen Whittaker etc..... Do you think even one would respond?

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:50:38 (EDT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Great, but what premie will volunteer Message:

to contact a premie/m/k representative? Any rank and file/lifer will pass, as will EV... Are there any 'maverick premies' who would be willing find someone for the panel to represent their side? Also, it could be started on-line, even with no premie rep., with questions submitted to the exes rep, awaiting the 'word of the master' in response...

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:01:25 (EDT) From: la-ex Email: None To: la-ex Subject: On third thought, Jim... Message:

Maybe the best premies to either pick a rep or BE the rep would be... 1-Pia 2-Glen Whittaker 3-Kathie Thomas 4-Charles Glasser (if we can pry him away from his fencing matches) 5-Chuck Nathan (amtext) 6-Michael Nouri (he says he's been listening to m for a long time, on of the satellite broadcasts) 7-I still like Tim Gallwey 8-Charnanand 9-Sampuranand 10-Sat Pal 11-Prem Pal himself....

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:11:41 (EDT) From: la-ex Email: None To: la-ex Subject: A fourth and last thought, Jim Message:

OK- I just had an idea. Let's do it the way that m wants-no lone rangers, we go by the book. We sincerely write to Elan Vital, because they are the group with no membership that gets together every once in awhile to invite maharaji to come somewhere in the world to spread his message. We ask EV to pick a representative for the debate. We offer to co-sponsor the program with them. The ensuing dialog could- 1-allow exes to ask ALL the questions and express ALL the feelings that they have ever wanted to. 2-allow M to once and for all really lay out his message, and explain how all of these things that he says really make sense. Premies and exes alike could get something out of it. A lot of clarity might come of this. It might help people resolve some of these issues in their lives. Ground rules would be established to insure that it would be civil, fair and impartial. It would be videotaped. It certainly would be interesting... If M/EV don't respond (highy likely) to such a fair and sincere proposal, it would speak volumes... Comments?

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:41:15 (EDT) From: PatC b) Email: None To: Jim Subject: See, it pays to be lovable like you Message:

Absolutely fabulous, Jim.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:32:15 (EDT) From: Danny Email: None To: Jim Subject: My Nominations Message:

Fila-mints and Ex-Lax, in association with Bill Graham and Sound & Fury Signifying Diddly Productions present: Our Possible Debaters (aka the Master debators)... Stephen Hawking for the premies and the Amazing Randi for the exes. or Anita Bryant for the exes and Pat Boone for the premies. (Even-handed, huh?) or Walter Mondale for the premies and Harold Stassen for the exes. or Buddha for the premies in Canadian Doubles against Judas and Antonio Salieri for the exes. (appears a wee bit unbalanced?) I see your point. Okay. Shoeless Joe Jackson for the premies and Pete Rose for the exes. or William Burroughs for the exes and Alan Ginsburg for the premies. or Claudia Schiffer for the exes and Letitia Casta for the premies. (Wake me up for this one.) or Perry Como for the premies and Merv Griffin for the exes. or Werner Heisenberg for the exes and Rabindranath Tagore for the premies. or John Miller for the premies and Michael Dettmers for the exes. Mmmm. Hotcha! or Jimmy Caan for the exes and James Gandolfini for the premies. or Catherine Zeta-Jones for the premies and Steve Guttenberg for the exes. At this point, I feel I'm losing my fairness and objectivity. Call me if a serious cat fight breaks out. It's the weekend, enjoy yourselves! Danny

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 05:20:09 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Danny Subject: Re: My Nominations Message:

i think i'd definitely be there for these two: William Burroughs for the exes and Alan Ginsburg for the premies. or Werner Heisenberg for the exes and Rabindranath Tagore for the premies.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:37:13 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: My update on LG Message:

Over on F6 you can see my post wherein I proposed a psychology professor, Dr. Barry Beyerstein, as the ex nominee for the panel I've been talking about. I've asked the other exes to consider his nomination and, quite frankly, I think they'll find him agreeable. If they don't, though, we'll just carry on and find someone else. The ball will then be in the premies' court. Unless you want to simply avoid the challenge altogether, you'll have to come up with your own person -- anyone you like so long as he's never been affiliated with Maharaji -- as your own nominee. That person and Dr. Beyerstein (or whoever the exes choose) will then choose a third panelist between them. Look, guys, this is a completely fair and legitimate challenge. No one's asking you to let someone else judge your 'experience' or anything of the sort. I mean, that'd be impossible in any event, wouldn't it? No, this is much more straightforward and manageable than that. The purpose of this exercise is to get some sort of fair, arms-length determination as to whether reasonably informed outsiders, judging him on the evidence available, would say that Maharaji is a cult leader. Why did I resort to this? Well, for years now I've seen premies and exes argue about matters that just left me scratching my head. To me, it was so damned obvious that certain words had inescapable implications as did certain actions and events. However, the premies, in my opinion, refused to concede those points. Exes would argue that 'any reasonably informed outsider would see ....' this or that but the premies would disagree. What to do in that situation? To me, this is the answer. Let's go to that 'reasonably informed outsider'. In fact, let's go to three of them. Let's all put our money where our mouths are. Honestly, if you have any interest in standing by your words on these issues you should, like I've said, welcome the opportunity to resolve at least that one issue of how would the world see Maharaji if it bothered to look. Naturally, if you don't participate it only proves that you don't actually believe what you've been saying about the fair meaning of so much that we've debated. Again, this isn't the time or place to argue about the merits of meditation, darshan or the wonderful feeling you get when you see His Shining Face. It's about the other stuff. And don't give me this shit about how that other stuff isn't debatable because you've been debating it one way or the other all along now. Even CD can't resist trying to argue the odd point now and then. Okay, this is everyone's opportunity to pony up. Come on, guys, don't be chicken. This'll be fun, huh? Don't you want to know that it isn't jsut premies who interpret Maharaji's words the way you all do? Wouldn't that give you some comfort to know that the world at large, if properly informed, also sees things your way? Well, that could happen. Oh yes it could. But you have to play if you want to win. Don't be scared. Jump in.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:32:09 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yup. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:29:35 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Alright! My proposed nominee has accepted! Message:

Sure. I had the feeling this was the guy you were trying to contact.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:35:16 (EDT) From: me again Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Sure! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:14:01 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Jim Subject: BB is ok by me (nt) Message:

xx

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:11:12 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Your votes please? (Exes only) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:54:52 (EDT) From: Bryn Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sounds Good.OK. (nt) Message:

fg

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:26:33 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Jim Subject: no problem [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 07:13:32 (EDT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes. Message:

Sounds good to me.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 23:27:55 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sure: Sounds great. NT Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 01:05:55 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Yes [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 21:48:45 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Jim Subject: go for it Message:

I hope it works out for you. He sounds like a very good person for the job.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 01:11:45 (EDT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: Selene Subject: He sounds perfect, Jim, Message:

Let the games begin! This ought to be even better than Rennie Davis and Ken Kelly (?) debating during Millenium '73!

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:56:28 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: Re: He sounds perfect, Jim, Message:

I dont know, Rennie made such a great ZEALOT. sO HONesT aBOUt HiS tHiNkINg AND cuLT pROGrAMmINg Jim, I Have to read more to understand what all your posts are saying, but I agree with you proposal. Glad to see you on a mission.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:31:23 (EDT) From: Ulf Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: yes. nt, Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:30:52 (EDT) From: gerry the contrarian Email: None To: Ulf Subject: NO (NT) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:46:33 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: gerry the contrarian Subject: ok,other nominations, folks? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:49:26 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: such Subject: Exactly. If not Beyerstein, who? Message:

I know Gerry's just kidding but, then again, maybe he's not. If anyone doesn't think Beyerstein's good enough, for whatever reason, please explain why and please suggest who you've got as an alternative.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:38:47 (EDT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Jim Subject: If Beyerstein is up for it then he's the man Message:

It's a thankless task after all . Who gives a fuck in the big wide world about this shit ? So ANYONE at all from the BWW willing to open up their heart to the Universe of Love has got to be given the green go go go. Let's see the Rawatist nominee , whoever that may be is fine by me.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 18:56:19 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: All Subject: Dalai lama's Advice Message:

THE DALAI LAMA’S 1994 PROCLAMATION ON SPIRITUAL TEACHERS WHO ABUSE THEIR POWER The following quotes are from the article 'Toward A New Spiritual Ethic,' by Kate Wheeler; March/April 1994 edition of Nexus. The Dalai Lama’s own words are in bold. 'At a symposium with 22 Western Buddhist teachers, the Dalai Lama had strong words for teachers who abuse their power—and students who give theirs away.' 'A teacher who behaves unethically or asks students to do so can be judged as lacking in ultimate insight, His Holiness said. ‘As far as my own understanding goes, the two claims—that you are not subject to precepts and you are free—these are the result of incorrect understanding.’ No behavior is free from consequences. For this reason, true wisdom always includes compassion, the understanding that all things and beings are interconnected with (and vulnerable to) each other.' '’Even though one’s realization may be higher than the high beings,’ His Holiness said, ‘one’s behavior should conform to the human way of life.’' When teachers break the precepts, behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others, students must face the situation, even though this can be challenging. ‘Criticize openly,’ His Holiness declared. ‘That’s the only way.’ If there is incontrovertible evidence of wrongdoing, teachers should be confronted with it. They should be allowed to admit their wrongs, make amends, and undergo a rehabilitation process. If a teacher won’t respond, students should publish the situation in a newspaper, not omitting the teacher’s name, His Holiness said. The fact that the teacher may have done many other good things should not keep us silent.'

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 21:48:21 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Deborah Subject: like perjury,pimping,aiding hitmen's flight [nt] Message:

THE DALAI LAMA’S 1994 PROCLAMATION ON SPIRITUAL TEACHERS WHO ABUSE THEIR POWER The following quotes are from the article 'Toward A New Spiritual Ethic,' by Kate Wheeler; March/April 1994 edition of Nexus. The Dalai Lama’s own words are in bold. 'At a symposium with 22 Western Buddhist teachers, the Dalai Lama had strong words for teachers who abuse their power—and students who give theirs away.' 'A teacher who behaves unethically or asks students to do so can be judged as lacking in ultimate insight, His Holiness said. ‘As far as my own understanding goes, the two claims—that you are not subject to precepts and you are free—these are the result of incorrect understanding.’ No behavior is free from consequences. For this reason, true wisdom always includes compassion, the understanding that all things and beings are interconnected with (and vulnerable to) each other.' '’Even though one’s realization may be higher than the high beings,’ His Holiness said, ‘one’s behavior should conform to the human way of life.’' When teachers break the precepts, behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others, students must face the situation, even though this can be challenging. ‘Criticize openly,’ His Holiness declared. ‘That’s the only way.’ If there is incontrovertible evidence of wrongdoing, teachers should be confronted with it. They should be allowed to admit their wrongs, make amends, and undergo a rehabilitation process. If a teacher won’t respond, students should publish the situation in a newspaper, not omitting the teacher’s name, His Holiness said. The fact that the teacher may have done many other good things should not keep us silent.' ---

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 18:32:50 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: All Subject: Can we have ID's? Message:

I agree with Selene and Francesca (see thread below) regarding the increasingly riotous trolls running amuck. In my opinion, the open-door policy of posting has got to be stopped. There are too much bullshit to weed through. And we have posters like ABi who don't need to be abused by some insensitive premies. Now, I know there aren't a lot of asshole premies, and I do know that some premies have many assholes. But this is the type of behaviour that gets mimicked. And it is a waste of time. Some of these buggers have been here for years. When is enough, enough? How can we have a professional debate when you-know-whos gets freaked out and disassociates into a thousand personalities, each one sicker than the one before? If everyone has only one ID, then s/he can only be one person and will have to stand up like a wo/man and be responsible for their own words like the rest of us. Moral: Don't let the nuts run the asylum

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 19:50:28 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: Can we have ID's?????? Message:

Hi Deb Salam and I discussed this briefly on AG. I agree individual accounts make sense. But then we need the right software and a systems admin. lots of work goes into password protected accounts, for them to be done right. I have done this but only on systems I have control over. Also, having one password for every one is foolish and a waste of time IMO. To find a canned software, like HotBoards, that also has good user account management features is quite difficult. And I don't think there is a queue for anyone wanting to be forum programmer. Maybe there is a people solution? If enough of us are sick of a certain persona, irregardless or what browser or name he/she picks for the hour, we can protest and be heard doncha think? I know this isn't perfect but throwing technology at it is very do able but takes work and dedication. I know who'd go first if I had any say. shall ve vote ja?

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:36:23 (EDT) From: Forum God +) Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Selene Subject: No Message:

I did try experimenting with Hotboards' built in individual password protection and signup facility when I first set up this forum but it's seemed too unreliable to be useful. Also, if someone wants to, they can easily get another Hotmail or Yahoo address and signup again once they'd been banned. If people want a closed foum, they should set one up themselves although I realise there is already one of these with the recent exes forum. I'm only into blocking people who have nothing to contribute but nonsense and I've only blocked two people since this place started. One was McGruff who is in California and the other was Juicy in California too. They could be the same person using two ISPs. Snake/Mala is in Australia and so I gave him another chance since it's not his fault his ancestors were convicts. Vice Versa is in Canada and probably bored. I meant to check Passing Through and will do so before going to bed tonight. Although I don't regard him as a nonsense spammer like McGruff & Co. I'll never reveal IPs but I will reveal approximate geographical location of certain people who have committed the sin of spam and also connect the various handles if they're the same person and annoying some people. I won't block anyone for their honest views, even if they are completely different to other people's, otherwise this place becomes too cliquey.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:58:37 (EDT) From: Forum God +) Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Forum God +) Subject: Passing Through is Message:

'Passing Through' is also 'snake' and 'Mala' and resides in Australia.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:13:05 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Forum God +) Subject: not another Aussi bloke! Message:

aaarrrrgghhhhhh.......

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:48:10 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Forum God +) Subject: Passing Through is not Message:

No I'm not. PT

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 22:17:24 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Forum God +) Subject: If 'Mala' is also 'Passing through'.. Message:

In a post down below 'Mala' calls himself a new premie. I'm pretty certain (but at this point don't quote me on it..I'm not 100% certain)that PT called himself an old timer when he first came here. At any rate the ' lingo ' and his historical knowledge of the whole trip points to that being the case. It seems he's not only learning how to get in touch with the source of the universe via his gracious master but also learning how to lie and decieve. A fine student !!!

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:50:24 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Dermot Subject: like,'No cheat, no deceit' right! Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:14:20 (EDT) From: PatC Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Passing a nasty turd Message:

I guess some people can still sleep at night knowing that they are despised. Am I imaginging it or do the premie trolls seem to be trying to mask the pain of their masochistic martyrdom by being anonymous?

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:58:13 (EDT) From: Tony Email: None To: PatC Subject: Not a blade of grass Message:

stirred,nor a dog stirred.I could'nt resist that one Pat. Cheers Tony.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:26:51 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: PatC Subject: My answer to PatC Message:

No PatC. I don't know who you are and I'd rather not. By keeping my identity secret I avoid the possibility of you and some of the others who post on this Forum contacting me. PT

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:51:33 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Dermot Munmot Message:

I wasn't on the grassy knoll. PT

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 22:20:02 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Dermot Subject: sp: 'deceive' duhhh (nt) Message:

xx

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:34:27 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Selene Subject: Re: Can we have ID's? Message:

Hi Selene, I don't know why the single ID is foolish and a waste of time, but I'll take your word for it for now. This is a good time to talk about security, especially we want to have a good debate. And I'm really sick of the relentless abuse by certain premie(s. Let's do something about it. Cheers ;}

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:30:45 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Sure Deborah. Message:

Deborah says: I don't know why the single ID is foolish and a waste of time, but I'll take your word for it for now. This is a good time to talk about security, especially we want to have a good debate. PT: This is straight out of the WPC manual. Deborah: And I'm really sick of the relentless abuse by certain premie(s. PT: Occuring on a site created to abuse Maharaji and premies. Deborah: Let's do something about it. Can we have ID's? PT: Can we join a cult?

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 21:28:15 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Deborah Subject: what I meant Message:

If you password protect a forum by giving all users the same password in other words alll 40 have the password lifeSucks101, it is the same as none, IMO, since if it is given out or misused there is no audit trail. Well the Forum God hath spoken and I was not surprised at his stand. I like him for his honestly and hands off approach. I do think the old fashoined 'shunning' concept is the best and most effective but only works if everyone does it, which will never happen here ! We are a group of strong individuals. If I did not have a very demanding computing job I might look into all of this more. As I said, I think Salam is (and where is he anyway sleeping or what?) Believe me I do understand your statements.No easy answers. Thanks Dave for your input.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:34:26 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Selene Subject: Give up Selene. Message:

Selene says: 'We are a group of strong individuals'. Abi says: 'Individualism is the refuge of the irresponsible'. PT: 'You are a group of irresponsibles?' PT is confused. Thank God Jim's back.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:11:28 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: give up reading your spam? ok Message:

Will do SC, Ezkial, MW, Marolyn and not a Catweasel. Too bad it takes up two thirds of the active., You must be quite proud of yourself fuckWad.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 16:54:04 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Selene Subject: Re: give up reading your spam? ok Message:

Exactly, this one person make is 2/3 of all the premies who posts. Fuckin asshole is dense, really dense. Look at his foolish responses. The guy is a certifiable moron.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 13:57:35 (EDT) From: Stonor Email: stonor21@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Sandy: Nat'l Geo-4 pgs on Farm (OT) Message:

Hi Sandy, Just came across a 1977 National Geographic with a 4 page colour photo shoot about The Farm and I thought of you right away. Just wish I knew if you are in any of the pics! ;) If you're interested, I'll send it to you. I've posted my public email address above in case you no longer have it. Hope you're doing well with your new job! Anna

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:17:10 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Premie wisdom and tradition Message:

On Lifes (sic) Great, Mack wrote: ''Jim what are you doing back? You demonstrated yourself to be the backstabbing sleaze ball that you are and got the boot from your own side even. Now you're back with nowhere else to go. Just like the song: 'Leaving your hate filled web pages Oh where would I go?' You're such a pathetic looser Heller. Say, defended any low-lifes lately. I'm sure anyone who could afford it wouldn't go near a sleazebag like you.'' Ah, it's good to know some things never change and can always be relied on.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 05:35:48 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: and they call US hateful???? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 16:44:26 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Here's more 'premie wisdom' Message:

Sir Dave, I think this this dovetails nicely with your post. After much deliberation, I decided to take a chance and forward the Best Of Forum link to an old premie acquaintance. I figured what do I have to lose and maybe a dialogue would ensue. Here is their response - it speaks for itself (and for many other premies, I'm afraid). I don't care about all this bullshit.... don't send me anymore.... GMJ and all the premies are only human and thus exhibit all the regular human traits.... You can be a murderer and receive Knowledge....or have any other vice.... I never thought anyone was 'higher' than anyone else.... Our President gets blowjobs,... hey I'd like one too.... Just because a bunch of confused people changed their minds is of no concern to me.... I've enjoyed the ride... and continue to do so.... Spend your time being happy not trying to shit on other's experience. If you got regrets.... let them go and concentrate on your future. Synopsis: Facts are bullshit. We're all human including M. Anyone not still practing K is confused. It's my experience. Move on. Note to self: You can't even bring a horse to water much less make them drink. Richard / Postie

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:40:39 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Richard Subject: Jeez, Richard Message:

That must have felt horrible! I had many experiences like that when I was first exiting. Since then I haven't bothered. In fact, I barely know any premies. It felt good for me to leave Miami, because it felt to me like a premie ghetto - I'm not saying it is, it just felt that way to me. The letter you quoted was really the classic premie stance, I imagine. I can see how it is internally coherent, like all long-lasting belief systems. I'm sitting here thinking about this. How does this whole belief system get created and remain so strong. Of course! It's the gosling-imprinting thing. I've mentioned it many times, because I'm really into this great new book 'A General Theory of Love' that basically talks about the power of initial imprinting to shape our beliefs and patterns. For many of us, the experience of MJ and K at the beginning was an initiation into certain levels of experience of ourselves. Perhaps through the breath, or through the sense of belonging, or through the guru-juju, we got our initial experience of a new realm, different from growing up in our families, through MJ and/or K and/or the group. Even those of us who had - er - experimented with expanding our consciousness found someone to attribute it to when perhaps feeling insecure. The fatal flaw was that this attribution of our experiences to MJ and K and the addictive loop of 'getting' this experience from MJ and K went unquestioned. Of course they don't care - that much anyway - about MJ's pecadillos. Although approving of him feels better, the real attachment, the LIMBIC LOOP which is a near-unbreakable and undiscernible bond, was already created. 'Any experience I get that is good comes from Him.' This is drummed into us, and how many zillions of times do we repeat it subconsciously before we begin to break out and question it? And gratitude is a feel-good endorphin-producing emotion. We were entrained to be grateful - to HIM - for everything. Imagine a business where you get commission on every sunny day, every brilliant idea anyone thinks of themselves, any sense of joy from the life energy streaming through. No wonder he is rich! love Katie Darling

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:20:34 (EDT) From: PatC Email: None To: Richard Subject: More 'premie wisdom' and love - not Message:

Sounds like your friend has given up propagating truth and love and peace - just like the anonymous premie trolls.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:37:13 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: More 'premie wisdom' and love - not Message:

PatC & Disculta, Glad to see you both here in my home on a Saturday morning, cup o' tea?. Well I sent the link in a neutral way, like 'check this out', not like 'you're in a cult'. I was totally shocked by the venom that came spewing back. It is obvious to me that this reply is just another form of defense of 'my experience' at all costs. Pia, Charles, et al are just more polite versions of this fear of losing one's religious fantasy. On the other hand, another friend responded thusly: Well....................2 hours later, I MUST stop! Fascinating!!!!!! Discusting!!!!!!!Amazing!!!!!! I knew it!!!!!!!!!! I CAN'T stop reading, have to eat, have to pee, have to have caffine........CAN'T stop........ By the by, the link to the page that illicited those two reponses is shown above. [ ***Best Of Forum*** ]

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 15:20:05 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: i.e. oxy-Moron [or maybe Big Mac attack]! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 12:01:22 (EDT) From: don puerco Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Premie wisdom and tradition Message:

premies really shouldn't be on this forum because it's just a waste of time ...well maybe it's a way to fill the sparetime in between the various practise sessions...look over yonder ....

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 10:05:11 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: All Subject: good on you charles Message:

looks like your words the spin of town at present 'The Hate Club', you won my heart man, such a loving and caring DICK HEAD that you are. So lets see if the propossed debate will take place ha, I hope you have someone writing the minutes. Anyway, I've already finished writing your chapter, keep in touch, will be up for the whole world to see.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 17:47:21 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: salam Subject: Re: good on you charles Message:

I congratulate you for your efforts: Deeply appreciate that you have taken some of your time to trash mariachi; he truly deserve it. As for Charles, I feel sorry for premies in general, specially for the ones like him because the truth is they are all under a very strange, dillusive spell. I have been busy Salam but when 'all' slows down I'll be glad to give you 'an exclussive' on my interactions with EV as one of the Aspirant Contacts of mariachi. Take care, Silvia

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Date: Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 22:01:30 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: All Subject: A challenge for CW and other premies Message:

In a thread down below CW told me to stay away from lawyers because they are sharks and he said that I need a personal touch and offered his support. Dear CW could you please help me. Could you write an open letter to Maharaji about Jagdeo and post it here and on LG. Maybe Richard 11 could do the same along with all the other premies who express such concern about the Jagdeo situation. They could ask Maharaji where Jagdeo is for a start. Will you CW? I'd appreciate it. I'm waiting... Abi

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 04:11:07 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Abi Subject: No Contest Message:

I know this. If you want to deal withit, it aint going to happen here. His whereabouts? You want to gain closure or not? If yes them let's deal with it - elsewhere.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:10:15 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: CW Subject: hmmm Message:

It's OK CW, I didn't really think that you meant what you said below or that you really want to DO anything. I didn't really think you'd be my knight in shining armour and help me get 'closure'. It's just that because you said you would help I thought I'd just confront you with it. Because you so often confront ex-premies. Abi the vampire slayer

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:16:48 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: hmmm Message:

The offer stands. But I wont help you or anyone else grandstand on this site.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:48:07 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: CW Subject: double hmmm Message:

Oh where oh where doth CW propose action is taken? Huh? And how? I really must go to sleep soon. Have a writing dead-line.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 09:51:13 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: CW Subject: Oh-me-gawd! Message:

I know this. If you want to deal withit, it aint going to happen here. His whereabouts? You want to gain closure or not? If yes them let's deal with it - elsewhere. --- If I hear the word 'closure' on more time I will SCREAM!!!!

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:15:28 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Who is talking to you? Message:

You seem pretty keento play the mother statement.You are not being addressed. Clear?

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 02:31:25 (EDT) From: MrT Email: None To: CW Subject: I is talking to you Message:

Now fuck off.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 07:49:44 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: MrT Subject: what a gentleman Message:

Charming, just so very charming. The elegance of the message, the simplicity. I take it you know about 'that experience' and are in touch with 'that joy'? Amazing what meditation does for your manners...

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 13:08:57 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: CW Subject: The Mother Statement? Message:

You seem pretty keento play the mother statement.You are not being addressed. Clear? --- Wassamatter, Cat, got a hairball today? Think you own the ex-premie forum? Yes, I've always been called 'the mother' by all my friends. I have that protective instinct. I have come with more power than ever before and not a leaf moved without my permission. And Catweasal, don't come here clawing about telling me I am not being addressed. Who the fuck do you think you are? If you have one iota of decency you will stop playing games with Abi, leave her alone, or put your name out here. It's her choice, of course, whether or not to respond to you. Her point is clear: Who the hell are you and what's your email address? HISSSSSsssssss

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 17:21:58 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: The Mother Statement? Message:

You dont get it. None of your................

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:30:53 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: The Mother Statement? Message:

I'm totally at ease about Cynthia being involved.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:03:38 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Oh-me-gawd! Message:

And the word' heal' and the trite 'move on'. Has American pop psychology taken over the world? Abi who is in favour of primal screaming and slaughtering pedophiles

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 14:34:51 (EDT) From: Carlos Email: None To: Abi Subject: Abi, I told you once I'd do almost anything Message:

And the word' heal' and the trite 'move on'. Has American pop psychology taken over the world? Abi who is in favour of primal screaming and slaughtering pedophiles --- I could to help you. You didn't name me, and I think you really only intended to call what you saw as CW's bluff.But to me it'd be a cop out to hide behind that. I don't feel an 'open letter' on a public forum would help, so I don't want to do what you ask. Yet at the same time I don't feel that your request is unreasonable. So I feel ashamed of myself. If you want to discuss this off forum, perhaps gerry or PatC, both of whom already have my eMail address, would be willing to forward eMails back and forth for us, if you don't mind giving one of them, both of whom are wellknown exes of goou reputation, yours. Or perhaps you'd be comfortable with Sir Dave, if you don't want to discuss things thru them. I don't press you to have an off forum exchange with me as, despite my feeling ashamed I can't promise you anything other than apropriate behaviour on my part. But it is possible you could convince me, tho not likely. It is also possible we could find something else you would wish me to do. That seems to me more likely, and is the reason I suggest an off forum discusion.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 19:12:03 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Carlos Subject: Care to explore that delicate point, Carlos? Message:

You're damned right you feel ashamed! You feel ashamed because you support a cult leader who you know has handled this most serious matter most unethically. Your problem is that you support him. That's your problem and yours alone, Carlos. Look, why not do the easy thing and avoid your conscience. Lots of premies do that. It can't be that hard.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:34:16 (EDT) From: Carlos Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, I prefer not to have my Message:

You're damned right you feel ashamed! You feel ashamed because you support a cult leader who you know has handled this most serious matter most unethically. Your problem is that you support him. That's your problem and yours alone, Carlos. Look, why not do the easy thing and avoid your conscience. Lots of premies do that. It can't be that hard. --- conversation with an abuse victim co-opted by an abuser like yourself, tho I'll admit your verbal abuse is radically different from what Abi declares Jagdeo did; a declaration I believe, incidentally. Also, you have never once been accurate in the motives you ascribe to me, so please desist trying to guess at them. No reply is needed or desired from you; any made I will most likely simply ignore.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:32:32 (EDT) From: PatC b) Email: None To: Carlos Subject: You called, Carlos? Message:

Let me say this right now: I hope you and Jim don't get stuck in a pattern. Jim has arrived at a certainty but I also know that he really has an open mind because his certainty is based on common sense. I think you too have an open mind but have arrived at your certainty through wishful thinking. At least I have a hunch that you prefer the truth to fibs. You know you are welcome to talk to me about anything by email.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 17:36:34 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Carlos Subject: Maharaji's responsibility Message:

Maharaji has already accepted that the abuse happened when talking to Abi's father about it. So Maharaji should have himself brought this matter to its satisfactory conclusion. He has the power to do something about it and yet all he's done is mouth empty words to Abi's father. Well, it's about what I would expect.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 18:14:56 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Maharaji's responsibility Message:

You got this one right. Creep should give AGYA not to harrass Abi, not the other way around. How do the premies not see this?

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:10:46 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Abi Subject: Careful you don't look a gift weasel in the mouth [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 09:54:10 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: why? Message:

'closure'. am off. [please don't dissappoint me]

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 10:23:50 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: salam Subject: Re: why???? Message:

'closure'. am off. [please don't dissappoint me] --- Hi Salam, 'Closure' is a worn out word that some people use to tell other people how to feel, how to heal, how to 'just get over 'it',' 'it' being whatever life's tragedies have caused one to feel bad, wounded, etc. It's kind of like 'forgiveness,' which is used as a magic word that will erase all pain. It's just too fucking easy to say that to someone. Another expression is 'just get over it,' or 'put it behind you.' Okay, I'll just get over it and put it out of my mind. Sound familar? My Mom, bless her heart, felt so bad when I told her about the sexual abuse I endured from my father, and she supported me. But she felt so much guilt about not doing anything about it at the time, she'd always say 'just put it out of your mind, don't think about it!' Now, with Alzheimers, just about everything is leaving her mind. But I love her, she told me that Maharaji ought to be strung up by the balls, so she does understand how creepy he is, despite her illness. She very funny, too. Closure is a word that makes me want to scream because it's just too easy to say to someone in the middle of a campaign of harrassment (Abi) by EV. Too cruel, too cruel... Love, Cynthia, who still wants her name on the Who We Are section of IT IS SO! I'm proud to be an ex-premie. Now I can think guiltfree!

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:23:51 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: No more . That's it. Message:

That's so much self indulgent garbage. It means nothing of the kind. It's about getting a result. Getting the the thing dealt with to YOUR satisfaction. Dont think you are Robinson Crusoe on this one Cynthia. I am of the opinion that people live with the residue of abuse for the whole of their lives. But there are things you can do. That's what I am talking about. And a witchhunt rarely helps the victim.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 12:24:29 (EDT) From: OK Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: No more . That's it. Message:

got you, thanks for the explaining. I thought I already had your name on the list, butit looks like someone nicked it. Anyway I placed it back with John's. I hope spelled it correct. This is the link in case you need it. who are we take care Salam

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 12:26:49 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: OK Subject: Above post from me to Cynthia Message:

sorry.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:32:47 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: CW Subject: Hey, you! That's right, YOU! Message:

One of the key issues for Abi, as I understand it, is whether or not Maharaji, her supposed 'Lord' and protector, actually knew, as per Susan's story, that Jagdeo was abusing kids. Are you prepared to confront the various parties (i.e. Prouty, Osborne and Rawat) in order to resolve that question for her? And what if, like others, you determine to your own satisfaction that Maharaji did know? What are you offering, Cat? Moreover, why in the world sohuld Abi take you seriously? Like she says, she doesn't even know who you are? Put your cards on the table.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 13:28:55 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Jim Subject: Glad you're back n/t [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 08:56:05 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: CW Subject: So this is what it comes to .. Message:

Jagdeo deal with it ? nope. Maharaji deal with it ? nope. Glen whittaker deal with it ? nope. Instructors deal with it ? nope. Elan Vital legal team deal with it ? nope. Charananand deal with it ? nope. Bring on WEASLEWORD , the man hiding in the bush somewhere on the Australian continent !!!!!! He'll bring closure. He'll sort it all out.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:25:28 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: So this is what it comes to .. Message:

Stranger things have happened .

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:52:54 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: CW Subject: Who are you? Message:

who who?

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:05:52 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Dermot Subject: LOL! Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 06:22:13 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: CW Subject: ? Message:

Do you mean 'let's' and in you Catweasle and me Abi 'deal with it -elsewhere'? Where is 'elsewhere' exactly? In a pesonal letter you write to Maharaji about this? What sort of ideas do you have for dealing with 'it'? Do you have a plan of action? Sorry, but I don't really understand what you mean. Why don't you think that writing an open letter to Maharaji on LG or here wouldn't have an effect CW? Abi btw I don't even know your real name.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:27:34 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: ? Message:

As I said . If you are genuine, where this a will...

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 11:45:45 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: ? Message:

CW, you are such a secretive chap. How on earth do you propose that we plan our move when I have no idea who you really are or what you have in mind? Do you have an e-mail address or a name or something? Of course I honestly want to get to the bottom of this sordid thing. And like Jim said, one of the things which bothers me is that it is likely that M knew about it and the DLM and EV knew about it for years. So who are you and what's your e-mail?

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 04:09:38 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Abi Subject: Jagdeo? probably rotting in some rawrat-hole [nt] Message:

[nt]

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