gerry -:- Premie delusions -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 18:19:48 (EDT)

Barry/Jim's friend -:- Gasoline on the fire? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:28:05 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- It's very simple, Barry -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:35:43 (EDT)

__ __ Barry -:- Re: It's very simple, Barry -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:54:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Do it! -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 18:24:48 (EDT)

Abi -:- Jean-Michel are you OK? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:05:31 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Which post on LG ? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 14:53:24 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Here 'tis -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:14:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Am I on trial ? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:46:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Some of those posters over on LG ... -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 18:19:39 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- I'm fine !!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 14:49:23 (EDT)

gerry -:- Pia has died -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:24:13 (EDT)

__ Jim (repost from LG) -:- SO WHERE THE HELL IS SHE ANYWAY? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 14:58:45 (EDT)

__ __ Bjørn E -:- You are losing it, Jim (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:57:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- And you are afraid to deal with it, Bjorn -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:01:30 (EDT)

__ __ Jim (repost from LG) -:- Was Maharaji bullshitting or what? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:04:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ la-ex -:- Jim, that's the question you must ask -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:48:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- The final insult to Pia is m's -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:00:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ When Dermot -:- When I wept over my fathers coffin. -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 18:26:58 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- That's sad gerry. -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:21:28 (EDT)

__ Abi -:- very sad -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:35:09 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- I salute her passion for life! [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:58:05 (EDT)

__ wolfie -:- my love and respect NT -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:52:31 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Very sad indeed. NT -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:30:54 (EDT)

__ David -:- Re: Pia has died -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:30:23 (EDT)

__ __ SC -:- A dear friend of hers sent me this -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:46:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Thank you SC -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:26:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Sad news.... -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:40:29 (EDT)

Jim -:- Fanatic alert? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 08:41:37 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Spew and Hate -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:46:39 (EDT)

__ Francesca :C) -:- Yes, give the premies ... -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:40:05 (EDT)

__ Abi -:- frightening stuff -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:17:38 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- How 'bout this nutter? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 10:56:05 (EDT)

__ __ Abi -:- god, how vile! -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:14:11 (EDT)

__ don puerco -:- Re: Fanatic alert? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:08:16 (EDT)

__ CW -:- Re: Fanatic alert? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 08:43:20 (EDT)

__ __ hamzen -:- Fanatic ism= inability to discuss -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:06:03 (EDT)

__ __ JohnT -:- Re: Fanatic alert? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:06:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Funiculi Funicula-Below -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:24:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Gotcha! [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:04:35 (EDT)

Dermot -:- Is Harry blocked FA? If so, why? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:22:04 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- Here's Harry's post from LG -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:09:37 (EDT)

__ David -:- No he's not -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:40:44 (EDT)

__ __ David -:- On the other hand -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:54:39 (EDT)

bill -:- A post not to miss from Bob -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:38:34 (EDT)

__ la-ex -:- Thanks Bob,feel free to post again nt -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:03:50 (EDT)

__ Ian Dury -:- Yo, premies! -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 00:12:35 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- Yo! Ian Drury -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:12:41 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Is this Bob Kirby, by chance? -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:41:26 (EDT)

__ __ Richard -:- Re: Is this Bob Kirby, by chance? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 00:42:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ Richard / Postie -:- Welcome Bob -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:48:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ Disculta -:- Hey, Bob Kirby, are you there? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:18:09 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- company of truth...Peace and lentils, [nt] -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:40:26 (EDT)

__ bill -:- Re: -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:54:47 (EDT)

__ bill -:- Re: -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:54:44 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- I agree,,moving,sincere & revealing NT -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:44:20 (EDT)

la-ex -:- Visions,regarding satellite costs... -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:38:06 (EDT)

__ Been Thee -:- Re: An Idea of Where The Money Goes -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:31:53 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Harry's just sneaked in LA-ex to put us right NT -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:46:31 (EDT)

__ __ SoDepressedaboutMJ -:- Harry, theres a REASON why Im SoDeppressedaboutMJ -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 00:34:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Instrumental versions of 'teacm me devotion/Arti' -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:11:44 (EDT)

Dermot -:- Test -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 21:54:02 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Dave/FA -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 21:59:28 (EDT)

__ __ Dave -:- Re: Dave/FA -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 03:35:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Yep I know that Dave but -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:24:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- this happens to me with IE -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:05:20 (EDT)

Silvia -:- TO ELAN VITAL/MAHARAJI -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 19:24:26 (EDT)

__ don puerco -:- Re: TO ELAN VITAL/MAHARAJI -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:11:04 (EDT)

__ __ Sir David -:- Here donny boy -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:21:07 (EDT)

__ __ JohnT -:- Porky's porkies -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:22:09 (EDT)

__ David -:- Re: TO ELAN VITAL/MAHARAJI -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 04:39:13 (EDT)

__ Passing Through -:- Sieg Heil Silvia -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:19:35 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- Re: Sieg Heil Silvia -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 05:19:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ Passing Through -:- Read it again Janet -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:50:06 (EDT)

JHB -:- Message to Abi from EV official -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 19:20:36 (EDT)

__ Abi -:- to deneb -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:35:42 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- Reply to deneb -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 19:26:20 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Deneb -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 20:07:48 (EDT)

Francesca -:- Latest Internet libel case -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 13:26:08 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- Another blurb on the case ... -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 19:46:49 (EDT)

gerry -:- Hey Baz, what's the deal? -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:45:46 (EDT)

David -:- Jagdeo the paedophile is Maharaji's responsibility -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 06:59:25 (EDT)

__ Passing Through -:- Dave made me do it -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 17:47:04 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- That sucks, try this one -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 21:15:59 (EDT)

__ __ Dave -:- Re: Dave made me do it -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 20:32:22 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Or PT -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 18:42:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ Passing Through -:- For Dermot -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:22:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Briliant pt -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:34:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Glass houses Dermot -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:27:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- charity -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:42:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Be charitable Abi -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:12:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- A gift !? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:58:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: Glass houses Dermot -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 05:34:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Go Janet- you're great (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:54:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ David -:- I know what you mean, Passing Through -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 04:58:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Did not!Did!Did not!Did! Did not! -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:24:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re:So what's his excuse???? [nt] -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:47:00 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- Jagdeo the paedophile -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:09:45 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- Re: forgetting molestation -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 17:41:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- I agree with your synopsis [nt] -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 18:40:07 (EDT)

__ __ Passing Through -:- A statisic for Gerry -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 17:35:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- boys too -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:13:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: boys too -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:38:18 (EDT)

__ __ Dave -:- I know -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 14:00:16 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- About Forgetting Abuse -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:16:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ xx -:- dave delete? -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:37:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- How does it work?? -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:37:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: How does it work? -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 18:10:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: How does it work? -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 14:20:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Monmot: WOW! -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:01:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Thanks Cynthia, Monmot, and Janet -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:48:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Thanks Cynthia, Monmot, and Janet -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:04:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: How does it work? -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 14:12:02 (EDT)

__ CW -:- No, it's the Crowns. -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 10:42:41 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- Re: No, it's the Crowns. -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 18:18:58 (EDT)

__ __ Abi -:- Dear daft one.. -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 13:13:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Abi, don't listen to the Cat... -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 14:16:45 (EDT)

__ __ Chambolle Musign -:- Cat, If 'Simply being practical' -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:10:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ Abi -:- but what if -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:22:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ David -:- Chambolle Musign is Passing Through [nt] -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 20:55:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ David -:- Can't you read English?? -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 14:03:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Monsignor Musign -:- He does care Dave -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 00:25:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Monsignor, what would be more important -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:24:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ David -:- Nonsense -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 03:42:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Monsignor Musign -:- Don't be bloody absurd -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 06:04:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Busy Sitting on His Throne -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:55:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monsignor Musign -:- Awe come on Cynth! -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:23:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ David -:- Wrong again and here's why -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 08:00:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monsignor Musign -:- Yea well... -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:28:38 (EDT)

__ __ hamzen -:- And such sensitivity in your use of language -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:08:23 (EDT)

__ __ Dave -:- Re: No, it's the Crown's -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 10:51:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: No, it's the Crown's -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 10:58:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: No, it's the Crown's -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 18:32:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Abi -:- not that old stunt again -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 13:15:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: not that old stunt again -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:24:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- trust -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:28:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: trust -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 08:41:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: trust -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:30:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Retired From WHAAT? -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:29:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- GM the sensitive one -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:13:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: GM the sensitive one -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:27:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 00:02:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Perhaps you may reconsider? -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 04:04:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- And such wit too, a classy act mr intelligence -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 04:17:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- You really shouldn't -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 08:46:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- you're up late -:- Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:33:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Dave -:- Maharaji's hand washing excersise -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:02:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Maharaji's hand washing excersise -:- Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:07:53 (EDT)

Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 18:19:48 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Premie delusions Message:

this post takes the cake: I did not really know Pia, though I spoke to her a few times. Last time I saw her was in Amaroo in 97 (I think). Our eyes met frequently, and somehow I knew she had cancer. Nobody told me. It is hard to explain, but I sensed that she in spite of the misery, knowing that she probably would die soon, she has an incredible strength. Her eyes were shining, and to me she was the most beautiful woman in that place. It was like within the terrible situation she was in, she still dedicated herself to the joy within her. Even though I did not really know her as a person, ever since those moments when our eyes met several times a day, I have admired her immensely. My sympathy goes to her family Bjørn E This is magical thinking, is it not? Even that is being charitable, because I really think Bjorn is a pathological liar. Of course when you have that damn fool Rawat telling people he can save them from the clutches of death, it goes to reason that you'd believe just about anything.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:28:05 (EDT) From: Barry/Jim's friend Email: None To: All Subject: Gasoline on the fire? Message:

The last couple of days I've been seriously looking over posts etc...and I can't help but think (or at least I always come back to this) Why keep this up when possibly all it does is give M a spot light? Even if it's an extremly negative one, I still can't help feeling all it's doing is keeping that creep in biz-ness to some exstent. At this stage, with M been brought down as low as his corp. can get, maybe he's even liking the fact that there's this pile of ex-M ass lickers that spent loads of free time wanking about there salad days being wasted by a phony cult leader? He could be like Andy Worhol, So long as he's still in the shot with nichole kidman-he's still in biz, or if he's in the tabloids no matter if it's a story about how he exploited hundreds...well good press, bad press, who cares at this point. He's still in the minds and hearts of the general puplic. I think this may only breed potencial victims? Heres a question: Does anyone know if M's organisation (whatever's left of it!) check the forum out, and harness it's negative energy to only redefine it's own agenda? You all could be giving him and his upper elite's the stuff they need to answer wary, new ,broken hearted potencal members. I know all of you have come so far from the days of bondage (mind and heart) but maybe it's time to not pay this asshole M any tribute what-so-ever! Negative or not. I mean hell, you already added an anything goes forum...why not go all the way? Like I said..I have never been a premie, or for that matter never been gullable enough to join a human being in the belief that he or she is God. I learned early on in life there's no such thing as ghosts. But hold on! This may be my downfall I admit. Not ever being in complete bondage to another humanbeing. I don't claim to know what that feels like-if you feel anything at all at that stage...I'm just asking Why? Why do we still talk about Manson, or Hitler for that matter? and don't give me that we must never forget shite! we give this scum life eternal through books, and costant attention. Youshould kill this fuck Maha-fuck-pimp once and for all in your lives. Take back what he's taken from you. The rest of your lives.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:35:43 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Barry/Jim's friend Subject: It's very simple, Barry Message:

Barry, Followers of Maharaji deserve to know the truth about him to allow them to make an informed decision about whether they want to follow him or not. There is a steady stream of people rejecting him. We know this from emails to the webmaster at EPO, and new posters here. Also, anyone thinking of getting sucked in, can come to the ex-premie sites, and avoid making a huge mistake. So, we're just a public service:-) Ask Maharaji if he thinks we're doing him a favour by shining this spotlight..... BTW, Anything Goes has been around for at least a couple of years. John.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:54:26 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: It's very simple, Barry Message:

John! thanks but is it that simple? Maybe I should start a forum on the poisoned Tylenal victims. Just because the advent of safety packaging came along doesn't mean it's stopped.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 18:24:48 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Barry Subject: Do it! Message:

If you feel strongly about it, then do it! The vast majority of ex-premies don't have anything to do with Maharaji or these websites. It's just a good thing that some people are willing to put this info out there. Oh, some of us do get a bit addicted (like your friend:-)), but it's not as bad as heroin is it? John.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:05:31 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: All Subject: Jean-Michel are you OK? Message:

J-M, I just read on LG that you were under investigation of some kind. Have EV tried to sue you and Combat?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 14:53:24 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Abi Subject: Which post on LG ? Message:

would repost it here ? Didn't find it. I don't have the time to read all their nonsense.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:14:02 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Here 'tis Message:

Some of those guys in the LG 'hate club' are really doing a good job over there of shooting themselves in the foot. Peace and love, bro'!! Francesca --- --- --- Posted: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:47:20 (EDT) Original: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:32:00 (EDT) Posted by: Lord Sutch Recipient: gwpnp Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) Subject: Re: Hate Club threats again Message: *laugh!* Yeah, it's pretty funny, actually. I can just see Jim and Deborah feverishly banging away (at the keyboard, not each other, of course) foamy drool dripping from those cro-magnon faces, sending e-mail to the Indiana Commission of Corn Futures that they need to investigate Catweasel immediately. LOL! Nonetheless, you must admit, it's pretty revealing stuff. It's a hateful agenda, and they are clearly obsessed with Maharaji as an icon for their own regrets and us as individuals as a target of their envy and confusion. Speaking of investigations, the EX's ought to start with the Human Rights Tribunal. There's investigation going on, all right, but it ain't about Maharaji or Elan Vital!!! Poor Jean Michel, he's gonna look good in prison clothes! And from what I hear, european prisons are delightful!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:46:48 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Francesca :C) Subject: Am I on trial ? Message:

I didn't know anything about it !!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 18:19:39 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Some of those posters over on LG ... Message:

... are so misinformed and paranoid. I think the guy may have been joking. Since there are so many anonymous trolls on all the Forums, people begin to think these shadow people are real, and actually have something to say. Or maybe they just don't know what to think. They are real people playing trolls of course, but hopefully they have not completely merged with their troll personas. Yikers. bests, f

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 14:49:23 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Abi Subject: I'm fine !!!!!!! Message:

Nothing happened so far ...... The weather is very hot in Paris these days. EV and Rawat are paper tiger IMO.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:24:13 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Pia has died Message:

Pia passed away quietly sometime very recently, according to SC at Lifes Great forum. My sympathy goes out to her friends and family.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 14:58:45 (EDT) From: Jim (repost from LG) Email: None To: gerry Subject: SO WHERE THE HELL IS SHE ANYWAY? Message:

[SC posted] Pia has passed quietly on. She was clear and aware until the end. M mentioned her at the program. --- [I replied] M mentioned her at the program? What'd he say? Did he say anything about what happened to her? This is from the summary of M's talk in London, July 13, this year: He said that it was easy to understand and discuss the trivial things in life, but that when it comes to the discussion about this life. most people don't even want to consider it. Yet if we really want to start to exist, we must understand the importance of the breath and the value of life. He recounted the death of a wealthy friend, who did not have Knowledge. 'All his wealth, all of his achievements, none of them could help him to breathe.' We know, he said, that we come into the world empty-handed, but do we know that when the master comes we don't have to leave empty-handed. The problem is that we feel that we come into the world to make a profit, but actually when we leave, we don't even leave with what we came with. However, it is not as if there isn't a reminder. It is not, though, in the mind, it is in the heart. The heart always longs for fulfillment; it is always calling out for it. If we can embrace that which is not dependant on time, which neither comes nor goes, then we can free ourselves from the grasp of death. From birth, we are actually in the grasp of death, he said, but we forget this. 'That is why there is Knowledge, so you can feel your originality again. If you connect to that experience, your don't have to worry about the clutches of death.' (emphasis added) So what exactly did Maharaji say about her? Did Pia 'free herself from the clutches of death' or not? Did she avoid leaving 'empty-handed'? Yes? No? Or is more like 'I don't want to talk about it but it sure is fun to play with!'?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:57:55 (EDT) From: Bjørn E Email: None To: Jim (repost from LG) Subject: You are losing it, Jim (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:01:30 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bjørn E Subject: And you are afraid to deal with it, Bjorn Message:

Hey, Bjorn, did Maharaji save Pia from the clutches of death or not? If he did, why feel sorry? If he didn't, why did he say that he does exactly that as recently as two weeks ago?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:04:57 (EDT) From: Jim (repost from LG) Email: None To: Jim (repost from LG) Subject: Was Maharaji bullshitting or what? Message:

Maharaji said this in Mainz on July 8: What is being given is so pure, so simple, and so real. Accept it. For that student and that Master, let there be nothing else in between. Just that focus. When the Master's need to teach is greater than the student's need to learn, and when the student's need to learn is greater than the Master's need to teach, you've got some very incredible phenomena taking place. 'Let me teach,' and, 'I want to learn.' Those two have met up, and that's that. Simplicity now begins to dance, and every breath settles down into its rhythm, neither fast, nor slow. Every breath and every moment is understood. Every day is enlightened. Now the light is escorted in, and enlightens this heart. And then I begin to live. I am back on the path I came here for. Everything is put in its balance. Because now, I'm not asking the question: what did I come here for? Now, I know. And I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to be alive. All that was wrong has been put right. And now, I walk with surety. Before, my steps wallowed, because I was uncertain. They stopped because I questioned where I was going. Now, they move swiftly, they glide. Because I know where I'm going, I take every step with dignity. This is not false pride, but real pride. To walk this life with eyes wide open, not shut: to walk with assurance. And for those who may have come empty-handed, there is the guarantee that they're not going to leave empty-handed. Knowledge is no mystery, life is no mystery. This is the challenge, and this is the simplicity that each of you is being offered. You have Knowledge in your life, be thankful. (emphasis added) What guarantee? What's he talking about? Anyone? It sounds to me like he's offering some ticket to immortality or something. Isn't he?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:48:05 (EDT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Jim (repost from LG) Subject: Jim, that's the question you must ask Message:

and the answer you must know.... (lifted from the song 'Who is Guru Maharaji?', by suzi bai whitten, I believe, or maybe alan thomas from ny. Isn't it interesting that m will never allow REAL Q&A sessions, so that obvious, common sense questions like that could be asked, and hopefully answered by the master himself. If he is selling immortality(which it certainly appears to be, although in a veiled sort of way)then you would think he would want everyone to know it. Why would he play cutesy with it? I wonder what he would say in a Q&A if some sincere person asked him if he was in fact giving the key to immortality? What would he say? No wonder he doesn't do Q&A anymore...he'd eventually have to account for his mystical bullshit that he sells in couched, veiled terms, but refuses to actually come out and proclaim as fact. When he plays cutesy with it, the premies get to feel 'special' and 'saved', while he doesn't have to account for what he promises. The rest of his talk is generally so bland that no one could argue too much with it, because he says little or nothing of merit or value. 90% blather, and 10% silly mystical references that are so vague that he can't be held to any accountability for them. Just this one quote would be enough to expose him.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:00:02 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: la-ex Subject: The final insult to Pia is m's Message:

You're so right, La-ex. You know, as I think of it, m really gets that final kick in here. Pia's family ... should they be mourning her as dead, gone, lost forever or, alternatively, should they be grateful that she, of all the billions of people who ever lived, was saved from the clutches of death by the Master?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 18:26:58 (EDT) From: When Dermot Email: None To: Jim Subject: When I wept over my fathers coffin. Message:

When my 'ole fella' died 20 yrs ago the coffin was kept in the front room at home prior to carrying down to church the next day. The house was packed but I spent the night sleeping in the coffin room. I had a little pic of Maharji, did a fair bit of meditation in between intense weeping ( incidentally, the only time I wept ...my 4 bros all wept at different times ...one at the graveside) Ringing in my ears was a Maharaji ism I remebered....' parents of all premies are looked after when they died'. Comforting in a way .....but now I think, totaaal bullshit. My ole fella probably doesn't exist now at all now he's dead. None of us really know, maybe there is some form of life after....I don't think so but who knows? Pretty sure Maharji was just bullshitting though.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:21:28 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: gerry Subject: That's sad gerry. Message:

Pia was an old and dear friend of Dot and myself. We went on family holidays together a couple of times, and watched each other's children grow up. She usually stayed with us when she came to London. She was bright and intelligent. I remember her proudly showing me the proofs for the book on technology and education she had published in Denmark a few years ago. She was happy and full of life at the time. She was a strong brave woman, who reared a lovely family, sometimes single-handed. My heart, love and sympathy goes out to her children, Tomas, Judy, Maria and Martin, who must be missing her more words will ever say right now. Anth Ginn

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:35:09 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: gerry Subject: very sad Message:

Hope her children will be alright.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:58:05 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: gerry Subject: I salute her passion for life! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:52:31 (EDT) From: wolfie Email: None To: gerry Subject: my love and respect NT Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:30:54 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: gerry Subject: Very sad indeed. NT Message:

x

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:30:23 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: gerry Subject: Re: Pia has died Message:

I hope she passed away peacefully and with no pain. My sister died of cancer a few years ago and she was able to die at home, well medicated and with the pain well under control. Very difficult for those caring and who are close to the dying person.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:46:12 (EDT) From: SC Email: None To: David Subject: A dear friend of hers sent me this Message:

It was calm, without struggle or pain, and she was reportedly able to keep focused and peaceful. She lived such a remarkable last year with her heart and spirit shining through an increasingly deteriorating body. Maharaji mentioned her passsing at the program and quoted her saying, 'If I had known what I know now about life, I would have lived very differently.'

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:26:52 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: SC Subject: Thank you SC Message:

I lost my father to cancer a few months ago, and it is indeed an intense, fierce, but also peaceful and beautiful journey. So thanks for sharing that. bests, F

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:40:29 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Sad news.... Message:

A friend of mine passed away this April from colon cancer which was diagnosed too late. I want to say I felt no personal animosity toward her and the website. It's so hard for those who are left behind....

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 08:41:37 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Fanatic alert? Message:

Something Richard 2 posted on LG: And if the ex-premies think they are up against a man with a few silent supporters who, because of technology, they are able to slander with impunity, they should think again. They are up against people like me who have nothing to lose. If they ever come out of their lairs and choose to stand in my way, or in the way of someone who is thirsty to hear about the real water, they will find out what commitment is. Guaranteed. And every day that I see the garbage and ignorance these guys spew, the more committed I become. I guess that’s because the more the darkness reveals its true nature, the more attractive becomes the light. It has forever been this way. So be it. Makes me wonder, is this guy channeling Fakiranand?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:46:39 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: Spew and Hate Message:

Hi Jim, Those two words, spew and hate seem to be the key words on LG, (I stay away from there, btw, one forum is enough for me). I'm so scared, I'm shaking in my boots. LOL! What a crock 'o shit--this forum is alive and well as ever, even though it's not on the EPO site. What fools! Love, Cynth

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:40:05 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yes, give the premies ... Message:

... a free-for-all unmoderated site of their own and it is soon full of hate and bile. However, I must say that the threats that get posted on LG are are pretty vile, and directed at people. I wish I had the time to make a mirror site to Charles Glasser's and collect them. For example, calling the Maha a 'dickless piece of shit' as opposed to saying you are going to get someone with a baseball bat are two separate things. One is arguably a fact. The other is a threat. And yes, this guy sounds like Maxwell Silverhammer. Yow. Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:17:38 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Jim Subject: frightening stuff Message:

That's a bit creepy. Careful Jim, he's after you.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 10:56:05 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: How 'bout this nutter? Message:

You expected these people to play it straight? C'mon, the only honest and sensitive people openly and very vocally left the Hate Club earlier this summer after they consipred to hassle premies at work, threatened them, and violated privacy rights. (It's all in their archives.) Why do you think they had to move the forum off EPO? Christ, when even the die-hard 'anti-cultists' throw them out, YOU KNOW what's left is a pretty bad smelling gang. All that's left over there are the marginally insane, tin-foil hat, pure hate crowd. Their numbers have greatly diminished because so many of them realized that there's nothing but a hateful agenda at work. Most sane people who stopped practicing Knowledge have just moved on with their lives. The few that remain (they pop in here to urinate all over themselves) will do anything to justify their actions. I guarantee there will be at least two nasty responses from them (at least Jim and Deborah) to this posting. When your mind rules you (rather than the other way around) there's no limit to the sickness. Peace, harry. I really enjoy your sharing. I love the 'peace' bit at the end. These guys must really be experiencing the glory of the Perfect Master of our Time and his holy and perfect Nollidge. (snicker)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:14:11 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: gerry Subject: god, how vile! Message:

I don't know why (maybe it was the way I was brought up in Divine Light Mission) but I still have this idea that premies are nice. loving, gentle, sweet, kind people at heart. All these childhood memories of softly singing arti and meditating peacefully get totally shattered when I read that sort of stuff. And at the least it's just not very strategic of them to be so vile because it cancels out any anger here.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:08:16 (EDT) From: don puerco Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Fanatic alert? Message:

channeling fakiranand?? this guy is still alive and hopefully KICKING !!!!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 08:43:20 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Fanatic alert? Message:

No , you have been for over three years .

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:06:03 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: CW Subject: Fanatic ism= inability to discuss Message:

Since when has Jim been unable to discuss, rationally, point by point? Are you sure you're not an ex warped out in disgust at brownnosing big boy. An ex who's having difficulties coming to terms with it, masquerading as a premie. I'd forgotten the irrational hilarity you could display, maybe even describable as fanaticism. Maybe english isn't your first language but you are a hoot cw, even if quite often a soulless hoot.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:06:04 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: Fanatic alert? Message:

CW: My tormentors are all dead ... I'm a deaf , dumb and blind mute. You never answered my question as to whether you had been forcibly deprogrammed, except to (grandiously) reply ' ... you're fucked then, aren't you?' Of course you are wrong about the people here. They have broken free of cultish mind-control. Your intelligence troubles you with the truth about your situation, yet your resentful, hurting heart prevents you from dealing with it. You are caught in an agony of reactive denial. It's not a pretty sight. You are an ugly warning of the damage Rawat's cult can do. Who were your tormentors, cat? Was it your family? Your father? Your husband? What reason do you have to nurture your hatred? Is it to revenge that you poison your heart and cling limpet-like to a perverted cult?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:24:45 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Funiculi Funicula-Below Message:

Slime

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:04:35 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: CW Subject: Gotcha! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:22:04 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: All Subject: Is Harry blocked FA? If so, why? Message:

He reckons he's blocked. I don'yt agree with much of what he says but can't find any really 'blockable' behaviour of his here. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:09:37 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Here's Harry's post from LG Message:

Is this Harry Payne the security guy, perhaps? Whoever Harry is, it's interesting how quickly the Thousand Oaks bliss injection passed. - R F6 blocked me after I wrote the real satellite expense numbers as they were having this bogus analysis of how 'little' it costs to put on an event or a satellite transmission. Real freedom fighters, huh? I didn't attack anyone, merely couldn't stand reading that someone was depressed over these ridiculous numbers that were being postulated/represented as the event and satellite expenses. I also added that for a person to whom MJ doesn't make sense, I'd imagine that $1.50 would probably be too much to pay. I'll tell you something. I saw a real freedom fighter yesterday. Encouraging me, through all changes, mine and his, for almost 3 decades to find the freest perception, freshest outlook, fullest lovetank, wildest worldview, most timeless and sublime satisfaction and most resonant, perfectly tuned point within myself. Even the fact that such a point exists, when I'm out on the prairie somewhere, is a priceless blessing. And the occasions, all too rare, when I let myself truly submerge in that distinct, powerful and completely consistent central throb, that feels so undeniably right, are highlights of my existence and tend to seep into other areas, making them richer and more full-bodied. Where, if you're not overburdened with leftover how-a-good-Hindu-boy-should-behaveisms (either for you or him), you can feel radically freed up, open-air liberated and larger, hopefully not calorically. So, go ahead over there. Make up whatever you want. Repeat it as often as you like. And those things that DID happen, stretch 'em, make 'em worse and blame them all on Maharaji. That'll help folks move forward. Yes, people can make ill-formed judgements, based on partial facts, filtered memories and personal vendettas. But you know what? Anyone who actually really wants to get to the bottom of this and not just dance with the Dish Patrol will go see Maharaji at some point for themselves. Which is the only way a person can even remember whom they're talking about. And then, game's over for a lot of people because you start remembering the best part of yourself. And he looks much different from there. As do so many things. 'Cause he's beautiful. I'm not worried for one sec about him holding his own in any situation, for if a person really wants to see where he's coming from, it's quite apparent. Of course, it has nothing to do with him. He's merely been the catalyst for it in the lives of oodles of real and varied people for 35 years. Can't be any connection there It was unmistakable yesterday. Undeniable. As plain as the sun. Block that!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:40:44 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Dermot Subject: No he's not Message:

His server is probably just running slowly.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:54:39 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: David Subject: On the other hand Message:

Someone calling himself 'Juicy' was blocked last week and if Harry is juicy then he'll have some problems. But Harry posted here yesterday while the Juicy block was in effect, from the same ISP as Juicy so the Juicy block depends on which way it's routed?

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:38:34 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: All Subject: A post not to miss from Bob Message:

Posted: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 20:19:24 (EDT) Original: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 18:04:19 (EDT) Posted by: Bob Recipient: David Smith Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98; MSOCD) Subject: Re: He used to humliate me... Message: And I LOVED it. Then, I used to humiliate the premies in turn. I LOVED that too. --- David, Are you an ex-premie now? I only recently found this website and have read only a smattering of postings so far, but I do remember seeing several (I don't recall their dates) which implied that you were still a coordinator somewhere and givin' 'em hell on the lord's behalf. I was in the Chicago Ashram when you came there after 'Millenium' in 1973. Whether you are an ex now or not, I sincerely hope you no longer traffic in humiliation for the LOVE of it! One of the reasons I left M in 1986 was due to my recognizing how he used to put people around him down constantly, in subtle and not-so-subtle ways. I used to go to the Residence every day for several years, and was around him fairly often. I don't ever ONCE remember him complimenting or praising anyone. One time there was a problem with his Mercedes that even Beverly Hills Mercedes couldn't fix. They hadn't a clue as to what was wrong even. So M was stuck. I had an idea what the problem was, but I knew it would be difficult and time consuming to fix. But I loved the guy and wanted his car to work, and he said to go ahead and try. I ended up pulling the entire dashboard out of his $80,000 Mercedes, fixed the problem the experts couldn't fix, and put it all back together again perfectly. This took days, and my body was sore from lying on his floorboards the whole time. Do you think he was grateful? Do you think he'd say 'gee,thanks, I can drive my favorite car now'? No way. All he did was mention the 'mess' I'd made while the work was in progress.(the car and garage were IMMACULATE when the job was FINISHED, however.) The tone of his half-humorous put-down was hurtful to me only because, I then realized, that I felt he was spiritually superior to me. Then I recalled that he almost ALWAYS put me and everybody else down after they would make heroic efforts on his behalf. I began to see that this was his way of keeping his devotees in their place....always doubting themselves and therefore needing him in their lives. When I saw through this ploy of his, I began to lose my respect for him. The final straw came when I was invited to his new year's party at the residence a few months later. There in his living room, in the presence of about 35 people, he got so drunk that he could barely stand. He would make incoherent statements and slur his words in the process. It seems everyone but me got a great kick out of this! But I was frankly disgusted. This guy wasn't fit to lead his own life, let alone the lives of countless sincere people around the world. That's when I quit for good. I continued to do 'service' at 'the residence', but only if they paid me $25 an hour.....Which they did for over a year, till they could find someone knowledgable enough to handle what I used to do (which wasn't automobiles, by the way). Since leaving him my life is much more fun, free, and spiritual, as WELL as more worldly. I've come to see that there are no mistakes in the universe, and that the time I spent following this guru was NOT wasted, nor is he a 'badguy'. We all do the best we can and we all (including M) learn at our own pace. I do not envy M his opulent lifestyle, because I feel it is a SUBSTITUTE for real happiness. I sense that M is in pain, and has low self-esteem. A person who is experiencing the spiritual bliss of being alive to the moment has zero interest in putting another person down, don't you think, David? And to want to HUMILIATE another? I can only say that, for myself, I'd have to be living in my own private self-created HELL to want to do something like that now. So, in many ways, I have compassion for M and what he must be going through, opulent lifestyle notwithstanding. He seems to have inherited the role of Perfect Charlatan from his dad and is lost in an delusional world precipitated by this form of child abuse he suffered early on. And my worldview, when I came to him in 1972, had me looking (unconsciously) for a loving father-figure, to heal my very deep father-wound. Together M and I made a perfect match to fulfill one another's fantasies. I needed a leader and he needed to be one......and in both of us, our needs were rooted in self-doubt and low self-esteem. My lesson in all this is to take responsibility for my life and what I experience in it. This makes me no longer a victim in any circumstance(since I'M the one who defines what meaning that circumstance has for me), and to not blame others, because doing so defines me as a powerless victim (which was why I came to M in the first place). So that was a great lesson to learn and it only took 14 years....some people may never learn it in a lifetime! THIS IS A GREAT WEBSITE, ISN'T IT? Love, Bob (edit this message

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:03:50 (EDT) From: la-ex Email: None To: bill Subject: Thanks Bob,feel free to post again nt Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 00:12:35 (EDT) From: Ian Dury Email: None To: bill Subject: Yo, premies! Message:

I CAN'T WAIT to see how you are going to rationalize this post from Bob, who, by the way, WAS THERE, but that never really matters, right? Let's hear from some of you know-it-alls who have never been closer to Rawat than the hundredth row at some program!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:12:41 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Ian Dury Subject: Yo! Ian Drury Message:

If you can't get fall down drunk in your own house, where can you? This is the point you guys never get. M has a right to a private life. This isn't some Big Brother TV program. Or do you think that movie stars must always wear movie makeup, so that fools won't be shocked and disappointed? If you hide a camera in the toilet, I'm sure you'll find M shits as well. Grow up! PT

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:41:26 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: bill Subject: Is this Bob Kirby, by chance? Message:

Bob Kirby and I ignited our ex-ness together. Haven't heard from him since he left L.A. in the late eighties and I, soon, after. Bob, is that you? In any event, great post, Bob, whoever-you-are.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 00:42:01 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Is this Bob Kirby, by chance? Message:

Bob...that was a GREAT Post..If that is the same Bob..I remember you from San Diego in 73..with Mickey..Earl and the Like..If so..Thank you for Your Courageous and Eloquent Post..and I hope to hear more from you...;-)) How are you doing?...Richard

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:48:59 (EDT) From: Richard / Postie Email: None To: Richard Subject: Welcome Bob Message:

Thank you for sharing your story here and please do share more as you feel moved. My guess is you are Bob K. as well but similar assumptions have been made before and proven wrong. Welcome whoever you are. Richard who used to post as Postie and may have to resort to that again, what with all the Richards posting here now. (To the Richard who already posted in this thread, since I've been posting as Richard for awhile now, to avoid confusion maybe you could pick another name to post under. There is already Richard (me), Richard II (a premie) and Richard W. Thanks.)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:18:09 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: Darlingwave@aol.com To: Richard Subject: Hey, Bob Kirby, are you there? Message:

Hey Bob, If you are Bob Kirby, how are you doing? This is Katie, formerly Baier (now Darling). I loved your post and completely agree with you about responsibility etc. I'd love to hear what you're up to these days. If this is you, did you know that the ex-premie site hosted a popular and famous scene of you walking out of MJ's party years ago? I live in the SFco Bay area and am re-remarried and very happy love Katie Darling

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:40:26 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: bill Subject: company of truth...Peace and lentils, [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:54:47 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: Re: Message:

Bob, at present, you view it like this: 'I've come to see that there are no mistakes in the universe, and that the time I spent following this guru was NOT wasted, nor is he a 'badguy'. We all do the best we can and we all (including M) learn at our own pace' I think you will find that as time goes on you will alter this view as your analysis of things will improve even more, and you will be able to grow in your understanding of this 'universe'. Maybe someone said there 'are no mistakes in this universe' or in life, but that idea will fall by the wayside. Human nature is what it is, and ideas dont alter it. The understanding of human nature is a great subject, and it does get covered here.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:54:44 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: Re: Message:

Bob, at present, you view it like this: 'I've come to see that there are no mistakes in the universe, and that the time I spent following this guru was NOT wasted, nor is he a 'badguy'. We all do the best we can and we all (including M) learn at our own pace' I think you will find that as time goes on you will alter this view as your analysis of things will improve even more, and you will be able to grow in your understanding of this 'universe'. Maybe someone said there 'are no mistakes in this universe' or in life, but that idea will fall by the wayside. Human nature is what it is, and ideas dont alter it. The understanding of human nature is a great subject, and it does get covered here.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:44:20 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: bill Subject: I agree,,moving,sincere & revealing NT Message:

zz

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:38:06 (EDT) From: la-ex Email: None To: All Subject: Visions,regarding satellite costs... Message:

Here is my basic question to EV or Visions, regarding their costs for the weekly satellite transmissions.... I am assuming, since the satellite programs are NOT live, but tapes of live programs, that there are very few, if any, extra costs involved in the production of these videos. In other words, there are are no real added costs to these videos, except for the fact that they are broadcast bi-weekly on Dish network. The cost for Dish network to broadcast them seems to be about $50,000-$100,000/year. I am assuming that they can be taped at the programs where m speaks, and those costs can be covered as program expenses. A little editing afterwards at Visions to clean them up, take out m's embarrassing moments and off color jokes, etc... Does anyone know how much is taken in each year to cover these satellite transmissions? It would seem that probably $100,000 would cover it. Based on a premie contributing $50/month: 1000premies=$600,000 4000premies=$2,400,000 8000 premies=$4,800,000 I'm wondering HOW MUCH they take in to pay for these costs? HOW MUCH extra is taken in? And do people who contribute actually get a breakdown of these costs and where their money went? I know that in the beginning, ev/visions would not tell ANYONE how much it cost or why it was so high.... I'm wonedering now how much is made off of the 'free' videos? Are they required to disclose this? Also, when premies hostd the videos at their homes, people would give them money or checks, and the host would generally write one check to visions. At one point they were told that the check could be tax deductible as a donation to a non-profit. Any comments?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:31:53 (EDT) From: Been Thee Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Re: An Idea of Where The Money Goes Message:

LA-Ex: I just thought of two possibilities of where the money goes: 1: Salaries, overhead, and equipment for Visions and EV, and Maharaji's travel expenses (Presidential suites, fuel for the G5, etc.) Visions is a subsidiary of EV. Both organizations have full-time employed people who are in mid-life and probably aren't accepting peanuts salaries. Both organizations have space rentals. And both have travel expenses for the people who travel on business to the events. Also, all the full-time instructors are salaried and have benefits (health, etc.), and I think they are EV employees technically, so their full-time salaries have to be paid. Re tax-deductions for satellite feed 'contributions' to Visions: This is probably so. Visions is an EV subsidiary so probably also has non-profit status. Hope this helps. 2: Visions is an international operation now

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 22:46:31 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Harry's just sneaked in LA-ex to put us right NT Message:

xx

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 00:34:13 (EDT) From: SoDepressedaboutMJ Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Harry, theres a REASON why Im SoDeppressedaboutMJ Message:

Well..Its funny..I found this site..and the Very Compelling Revelations about Maharaji/Rawat just last week. I believe its Reasonable that having had and practiced knowledge for 28 years ..there might be some Valid Questions that Come up...yet Premies like Harry... seem to be Incredibly threatened when anyone starts sincerely questioning things....That is Sad. Well Harry (?) if you want to Practice Knowledge and Follow Maharaji Fine no problem...I dont attack anyones Religion..but I DO HAve questions...Valid Questions for MYSELF....and I feel I've earned the Right to ask them after ALL I've Gone through in the 28 years since the Living Lord told me that the Purpose of my life was to Surrender to Him... This is the ONLY Forum..Ive EVER Found..where people are actually talking and Responding in a NON Sanctioned..but REAL Way about their Experiences with Knowledge and Maharaji/Rawat. So Harry, If you want to, in a Civil way, State YOUR Experience...fine...but just dont attack us who have given so much..so that Maharaji can Chop cars in two...ok? And By the Way...a large part of the Reason Im so Depressed about Maharaji/Rawat..is because, Just last Week, on this Site I Found Credible, Consistent and Compelling testimony by Bob Mischler, Michael Dettmers, Mike Donner et al., all esentially Confirming the Same Thing......that the REAL Maharaji/Rawat (not the one who performs for us a few times a year) appears to be Alcholic, Abusive, Greedy, Manipulative and more....I HAD NO IDEA THIS WAS THE CASE...In the absense of REAL Information, I have been projecting (apparently) my Idealized fantasy of Maharaji the Master/Lord/God Now their multiple and consistent Testimony shatters that illusion.....It is difficult for me to come to any other conclusion, but that they are telling the truth. THESE REVELATIONS ARE, I BELIEVE, UNDERSTANDABLY DEPRESSING TO ONE WHO HAS WAITED 28 years for Maharaji to Fullfill his Promise.. Yet, having just discovered these Startling Facts,I am in the Process of Questioning and Reframing the Experiences of Knowledge and Maharaji/Rawat accrued in 'just over 50% of my life.' (in this case an accurate representation of the facts) So as to the matter of the Satellite Feed...I'd be very curious about what costs besides the $1000 uplink are included in your $40-50,000 estimate of the Satellite Feed. If you have the Specific FACTS on that...I would be interested in hearing it. If you just have the Hearsay, from the guy who negotiates these things or his best friend then....well...I guess thats all you have... And by the Way, Harry, I actually went to the 'Event' also. And sat and listened to Maharaji/Rawat. I did have to resist the Tendency to get Nostalgically emotional when Maharaji had premies play the 'Instrumental Version' of those 2 top 10 Premie favoriteS 'TEACH ME DEVOTION' and 'ARTI'. Apart from that, I found the program.....without projecting on Maharaji my Idealized image of him as My Savior/Lord.... to be mildly pleasant...and a bit dull...Thanks for sharing...SODEPRESSEDABOUTMJ

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:11:44 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: SoDepressedaboutMJ Subject: Instrumental versions of 'teacm me devotion/Arti' Message:

Hi Mate Good post ! The instrumental versions were probably to remind the praetorian guard who they're dealing with but not let any newish aspirants or the wider world think he's more than just 'a normal human being simple meditation teacher* ....'Our FATHER has come to lead us along the path of perfection .....he's pure and HIS love is deeper than the ocean' ... *********************************** 'Creator, preserver, destroyer.....bow their heads and pray to ... all bow and pray to you......Satguru gives true knowledge.....satguru is eternal knowledge........' ****************************************** OR how about.....'I don't know how to love HIM .....he's just a man ....just a man....or maybe Andrew Llyod webber can update that with a few Prem pal references.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 21:54:02 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: All Subject: Test Message:

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb xxxxxxxxxx

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 21:59:28 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Dave/FA Message:

I'm trying to work out how 'edit this post' works? You can edit soon after posting or before? Whenever I try to edit it just has a 'save this message' button ....which leads to 'my download files' ......then finally.....'incorrect message' Any ideas? Cheers Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 03:35:37 (EDT) From: Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Dermot Subject: Re: Dave/FA Message:

Look down from these words and you'll see the (edit this message) link. Click on that and you'll go to the edit page. After editing you have to click Save Message button. But not in this post of course. In one of your own you've posted.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:24:07 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Dave Subject: Yep I know that Dave but Message:

when I go through the procedure it doesn't edit the page it just takes me to download files then comes up as error.....ah well !!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 17:05:20 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Dermot Subject: this happens to me with IE Message:

On 'doze NT/2000 but I haven't had it happen anywhere else. I do know the error you are talking about though.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 19:24:26 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: All Subject: TO ELAN VITAL/MAHARAJI Message:

Start disclossing the cost of each of yoru programs to the premies and the real amount you are pocketing and if you don't, if you continue lying to the robots who follow you, poor souls, the consequences will be as follow: I WILL CAMPAIGN TO DESTROY YOUR BUBBLE OF LIES AS HARD AS I CAN. HOW? WITH MY E-MAIL SYSTEM I WILL ASK TO EACH GOVERNEMNT AGENCY available in the net to investigate you and to AUDIT ALL OF YOU. EACH OF YOU!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:11:04 (EDT) From: don puerco Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Re: TO ELAN VITAL/MAHARAJI Message:

ever contemplated consulting a shrink ???

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:21:07 (EDT) From: Sir David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: don puerco Subject: Here donny boy Message:

Well, with a name like yours... For insuting a fair maiden and acting in an ungentlemanly manner - I challenge you to a duel. Choose your own sword and bring your own sandwiches.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:22:09 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: don puerco Subject: Porky's porkies Message:

are you saying the wisdom and purity of THAT K is insufficient? That a person needs more than THAT K ? That's heresy, Porky.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 04:39:13 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Silvia Subject: Re: TO ELAN VITAL/MAHARAJI Message:

I'd go ahead right away with your email campaign. You're not going to get any answers from EV.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:19:35 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Sieg Heil Silvia Message:

Well done Silvia. Question for all exes- Do you agree with Silvia that she should try to get Governments to investigate :poor souls' with K. I hope the answer is 'no' but this is a hate site after all. Sieg Heil Silvia. PT

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 05:19:04 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Sieg Heil Silvia Message:

hey--what's so hateful about getting all the various agencies to look close? after all, MJ loves to put down people who knock themselves out for him, and he loves to set impossibly perfect standards for them to try and meet, so what;s wrong with returning like for like? if he expects it of others, he can't be surprised if it's expected of him. aint no seig heil goin on here except in the mind of the sat gooroo. bhole shri, baby. do unto others

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:50:06 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: janet Subject: Read it again Janet Message:

Because Silvia is now saying that she is going after the 'poor souls' with Knowledge. Her tide of hate is now spreading out to embrace not just M but every one who disagrees with her. If you can't understand the difference, it's no suprise you got the other stuff wromg. PT

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 19:20:36 (EDT) From: JHB Email: brauns@apollo.lv To: All Subject: Message to Abi from EV official Message:

Abi, I don't know if you spotted this below:- Posted: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 03:33:56 (EDT) Original: Thurs, Jul 26, 2001 at 22:01:30 (EDT) Posted by: deneb Recipient: Abi Email Address: deneb@dingoblue.net.au Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0) Subject: Abi: please read Message: Hi Abi, I'm interested in getting this issue sorted in an honourable way. I am within the EV structure in Oz. Maybe I can help. I don't want to dicuss this here on EPO though. Not the place. Email me and we can talk on the phone if you like. take care, deneb

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:35:42 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: JHB Subject: to deneb Message:

Dear Deneb, if you want to do anything at all you can ask Maharaji to speak to me. That is all. I know that Elan Vital is an exhausted and confused organisation and that the people within it, however honest and sincere they may be, can only do so much. And I recognise that there is a great deal of paranoia surrounding what is understood to be my ex-premie agenda. If you can do something, great. All of this is so sordid. I feel polluted by it all. Abi

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 19:26:20 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: JHB Subject: Reply to deneb Message:

Deneb, I have reposted your invitation to Abi, in case she missed it. I know you don't want to discuss this here, but you have posted here, so you have already started the discussion. Are you acting officially, with Maharaji's permission? If so, shouldn't you give your name? If not, then you must believe that EV is not dealing with the Jagdeo situation correctly, and you want to try to do the right thing. If this is true, then I hope you have also written to your own management within EV, which of course includes Maharaji. So, Deneb, you have posted here - now you need to let us know your views. John Brauns

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 20:07:48 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: JHB Subject: Deneb Message:

There are official channels for these issues, deneb. Use them. Are you acting in an official capacity?

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 13:26:08 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: All Subject: Latest Internet libel case Message:

For those who like to follow the law (but not too closely, you may get in a fender bender and need to call a lawyer) :C) Honk if you love cheeses! Francesca --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Internet Libel Opinion Court of Appeal justices may have to sort out an Alameda County Superior Court judge's groundbreaking ruling which gives sweeping libel protection to Internet users. Last week, Judge James Richman dismissed part of a lawsuit filed by two physicians who claimed that a woman re-posted a libelous article that accused one of the doctors of stalking a Canadian journalist. [ Internet libel case ]

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 19:46:49 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Another blurb on the case ... Message:

From Educause. The other article said this one is getting appealed, so we haven't heard the last of this case, in this particular jurisdiction: INTERNET DEFAMATION LAWSUIT IS DISMISSED A Northern California judge has dismissed a defamation lawsuit involving postings in an Internet chat room, further defining free speech rights on the Web. Two doctors, who operate the 'Quackwatch' Web site, alleged they were defamed in a chat room hosted by a woman running an Internet support group for women who suffer from breast implant complications. The judge, however, cited the Communications Decency Act in giving the woman the same protections as an Internet service provider and relieving her from the responsibility of postings on the message board she hosted. Previously, such judgments have protected corporations such as AOL, and experts say this case is noteworthy because of the treatment of individual actions on the Internet. (Los Angeles Times, 31 July 2001)

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:45:46 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Hey Baz, what's the deal? Message:

Are you back at the Lotus Toes? Enjoying Life with Knowledge? Being inspired by Maharaji? What's this Curucao trip about? Whoever appointed you FA so soon after coming out of the cult did you a huge disservice, IMO. I'm sorry you got hammered in the hotseat, so did I when I was FA, and I hope you are feeling better now.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 06:59:25 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Jagdeo the paedophile is Maharaji's responsibility Message:

Since I'm still the FA here, I should make it clear that I strongly believe that the responsibility for sorting out the past alleged child abuse of premies' children by Jagdeo; that responsibility lies firmly and squarely at the feet of Maharaji and nobody else, except Jagdeo of course. Child abuse victims never forget their abusers and it is extremely insensitive to ask such victims to forget about it. I was watching a programme on TV the other night where victims of 'flashers' who were exposed to at the ages of 8-12 by adult men; these women were now in their thirties and forties and yet they were still traumatised by the acts of these men, even though they had never actually been touched. If anyone tries to trivialise child abuse, they clearly have no understanding of the effects that such abuse has.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 17:47:04 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: David Subject: Dave made me do it Message:

Using David's logic- David is the FA. Passing Through posts on Forum. David lets Passing Through post David supports Passing Through posting David is repsonsible for PT's postings David is responsible for PT's opinions. David is responsible for PT's actions PT PS How insensitive it is of you to bring this up again!

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 21:15:59 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: That sucks, try this one Message:

Using David's logic- David is the FA. Passing Through posts on Forum. David lets Passing Through post David supports Passing Through posting David is repsonsible for PT's postings David is responsible for PT's opinions. David is responsible for PT's actions PT PS How insensitive it is of you to bring this up again! --- PT is a moron David is the FA Therefore, PT is a moron Fewer premies, er, I mean premises.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 20:32:22 (EDT) From: Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Dave made me do it Message:

I let you post here because you're a good example of a premie.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 18:42:12 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Or PT Message:

Putting aside the FA / poster analogy... PT rapes a child Daves knows PT did this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Dave can (a) Help the child victim as much as he possibly can AND try his best to bring PT to justice. OR Dave can (b)Ignore the child victim AND make sure Pt is never in a jurisdiction where he's likey to be prosecuted. Forget LEGAL responsibility....just the MORAL responsibilty suffices. Yes or no, PT ?

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:22:46 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Dermot Subject: For Dermot Message:

Children are starving to death everywhere. Dermot sits typing at a computer. PT

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:34:07 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Briliant pt Message:

I knew you'd dodge it ! Just save ya man from anyone and everything.....nice premie...good premie.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 01:27:43 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Glass houses Dermot Message:

It's not just M, I get a little annoyed when anyone is being criticised by such an arrogant hypocrite. When was the last time you- gave blood feed a homeless person opened your home to the homeless sold your possessions and gave the money to the Red Cross. I've only given blood but then I'm not claiming to be the superior power in person. PT

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:42:14 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: charity Message:

When was the last time Maharaji gave blood, fed a homeless person, opened his home to the homeless, sold his posessions and gave the money to the Red Cross? He claims to be a superior power in person.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:12:55 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Abi Subject: Be charitable Abi Message:

Or wiped the tears from an orphaned baby' s eyes. Carried the legless leper 'long life's lonely lanes. But then M has given tens of thousands of people a gift that they cherish. A gift that many people say has saved their lives and enriched them in ways they never thought possible. Then on the other hand, he has pissed of a few people because he is obviously a human being with all foibles intact. Every body can be criticised. Even Jesus that paragon of virtue had his detractors. They were probably pissed off because he supported the adulteress. PT

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:58:25 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: A gift !? Message:

The knowledge that he claims as his alone to give, in fact was gifted to us all in Yogic scriptures. It's falsely he intones those four techniques work only by his grace! THAT false God lies, I'll spell it out for you -- were he unborn they'd work in any case! [ J'ACCUSE ! ]

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 05:34:53 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Glass houses Dermot Message:

a) I cant donate blood anymore because they found the hepatitis C marker in my blood. until that happened , i gave plasma twice a week for years, and accepted injections to make specific antibodies that were needed in high demand. b)i feed the homeless right after i feed myself--which is usually right after I go out and find huge amaounts of perfectly good food thrown away in the dumspters because it reached freshness date and they had to toss it, and they cut open the wrappers to spook the squeamish away from eating it or the desperate from collecting it at selling it for some money to buy drugs or alcohol or god forbid, food or a room for the night. someone speculated that perhaps thats how i got hep C in the first place--from dumpsters, since i dont do drugs or promiscuous sex. c) i have opened my home to homeless people at various times. some have robbed me. some have taken all they could get and bitten my hand when they could find no more to take. some wasted months in the same greasy spot in my living room making no effort to improve their lot with the opportunity i gave them. some put up a fight when i asked them to go. so come back and do it all over again despite our loud fights over the past times. at the moment its working out nicely, theyre living in the yard. what possessions i have, i rescued from dumpsters. i held a yard sale last year and made pitiful little. i donated the unsold goods to a charity. they were picky and only took a few things. the rest had to go back into the dumpster. the world is a funny place. it doesnt always work the way you think it would. people have hidden agendas. they dont want what you think they want.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:54:27 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: janet Subject: Go Janet- you're great (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 04:58:14 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Passing Through Subject: I know what you mean, Passing Through Message:

Passing Through wrote: ''I get a little annoyed when anyone is being criticised by such an arrogant hypocrite.'' I know what you mean, Passing Through. I used to get annoyed at the way Maharaji criticises people but I'm over it now.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:24:59 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: David Subject: Did not!Did!Did not!Did! Did not! Message:

I've just run the transcripts of M's last one hundred talks through my 'Critical Comments' software. And yes David, you're right. Of the millions of sentences M spoke- 78.1% were neutral 21.7% carried a positive sentiment about life or contained positive words 'love, joy, happiness, peace, contentment etc' and .2% contained critical material. Just for fun I put this thread through the software and got- 68% neutral, 2% positive (mainly me) and 30% negative. PT

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:47:00 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re:So what's his excuse???? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:09:45 (EDT) From: gerry Email: gkl1@techline.com To: David Subject: Jagdeo the paedophile Message:

Child abuse victims never forget their abusers and it is extremely insensitive to ask such victims to forget about it. Where did you get this idea that abused children never forget their molesters, because I have heard it before repeatedly and I believe it is true. Now, Bjorn comes here and claims that the discussion about Jagdeo 'awakened' his memories of being molested at age ten. He claims he had forgotten this incident until we 're-traumatized' him here. I said then and I will say it again: I think this is bullshit and Bjorn is lying about being molested or lying about having forgotten it. A person just doesn't forget that kind of stuff. Also Dave, about the header thing: I emailed you about 24 hours ago at the worldwide link hotmail box. Did you receive it? Is that the only way to contact you? I don't see a link at the top of this page for email contact. Perhaps we need one there.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 17:41:02 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: forgetting molestation Message:

you must not be familiar with the protective devices of the subconscious and unconscious mind. those parts of the memory never forget anything, but for the sake of continuing to handle each new day, and the demands of simply growing up, year by year, the mind quickly finds ways to pull the horrific experience out of conscious circulation at the forefront and files it away, out of conscious thinking, so that the person can get backs quickly as possible to 'normal' life. the memory lives, allright, but not out in the open. have you ever been mugged? robbed? burglarized? moested, yourself? initially there is a period of shock, in which you function by sheer pattern of habit or numb reflex, unable to make sense of what is happenning or has happenned. or you can't function at all, it is so great a blow. then you undergo a period of bizarre fear and beliefs and behavior in reaction to the event, all of it , your psyche, trying to dump out everything you ever thought or experienced as true, which the event has radically altered, and must be reorganized in order to integrate the new experience into the previous intelligence. seemingly minor details learned from the event have to be categorized and worked into one's understanding of reality. something as small as never permitting anyone to walk behind you ever again, because the attack came from behind you when it struck, --or never going into a dark room again, because that was the state of things when you were jumped--these findings get imprinted into the corresponding areas of the brain to ensure future survival of the organism, and when the experience is pretty much finished integrating, the person emerges changed from how they were before. most of it is not conscious. new guards are in place. new beliefs, new feelings,new practices, new idiosyncracies, all of them the organisms response to what it understood from the experience(s). the event itself gets erased in its vivid immediacy, as the new measures are added to the personality in answer to all that the organism learned from undergoing it. by its very nature, the experience was a radical threat to survival, and no organism can live in a state of permanent threat in the immediate foreground. our whole wiring is programmed to devise our coming out of threat, victorious and arriving at the sense that we can overcome it and live on. the memory is filed, buried from immediate conscious recollection, but it is definitely there, along with all the responses to it that it triggered us to learn and devise to face it's happening to us. it is doubly bizarre for a child, who doesnt have the reams of rational exlanations for life that an adult has; who, according to the statistics, is molested by a close figure the child innocently trusts and looks to, for how the world works. a child in that state of innocence has nowhere to put such bizarre experience, no alternate 'knowing' that it is supposed to be otherwise, besides their strange feeling that what is happenning is icky and bad. that it is committed by an adult the child has to surrender to, and is additionally accompanied with the threat never to tell, to keep it secret, or the condition that if the child tells, the adult will tell everyone they're just making it up, further scares and silences the victim. that is, if they c think at all. added further there is the willfull wall of denial other adults place between their own comfort world and what a brave or upset child might blurt out or whisper to someone, despite the perpetrator's tactics. I know of two families where the father repeatedly sexually tormented the daughter(s), and the mothers and other siblings formed a wall of refusal to believe anything bad about the father, and chose instead to ostracize the victim and send her away, in order not to have to listen to her pleas and desperate tries to be heard. between the original trauma of the experience, the organism's own response to it, the perpetrator's threats, and the rest of the world's tendency not to want to listen to such an uncomfortable report, it is more often the case that the child or victim 'forgets' that it happened, as quickly as possible, and the effects live on only as odd habits, phobias, personality quirks and the lik, changes the mind put in place to increase survival, after experiencing the trauma. in healing, the saying is, 'the body never forgets, even when the mind has to'

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 18:40:07 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: janet Subject: I agree with your synopsis [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 17:35:32 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: gerry Subject: A statisic for Gerry Message:

Approximately one out of four American women have been sexually abused as children, most by someone they knew. 'Newer research...indicates that as many as 38% of women are molested in childhood. There are many acknowledged problems with even this research, but the greatest is this: what is not remembered cannot be reported. It is my (Blume's) experience that fewer than half of the women who experience this trauma later remember or identify it as abuse. Therefore, it is not unlikely that more than half of all women are survivors of childhood sexual trauma.' (Blume, 1990, xiv)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:13:01 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: boys too Message:

Lots of boys get abused too but don't ever report it or tell anyone. I've know several men who were abused as children by their fathers and uncles and strangers and it has led to a chronic pain problem throughout their lives. One man was in his late 40s and a Professor and still hadn't delt with it, just kept on drinking and suffering from awful panic attacks where he'd shake and cry and shiver with pain. He was always thinking of killing himself although he was brilliant and handsome. Tragic. I wanted to murder his father. I don't think abusers understand the legacy of damage they leave behind. Children are sacred.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:38:18 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: boys too Message:

Hi Abi, Yes, and thanks for your contributions to the discussion. My friend the social worker tries to help these guys out, it's an uphill battle One man she is counseling had to be hospitalized recently for being suicidal. It's often times a daily battle for the victims of childhood sexual abuse and I salute you for your courage and straight talk on the subject.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 14:00:16 (EDT) From: Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: gerry Subject: I know Message:

My email address is on every post here. Also on the Webmaster's note page. I got your email but too busy to reply as yet. Hotboards have improved that function and now headers can be changed. If I put email link on main page, just get spam.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:16:26 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: gerry Subject: About Forgetting Abuse Message:

Child abuse victims never forget their abusers and it is extremely insensitive to ask such victims to forget about it. Where did you get this idea that abused children never forget their molesters, because I have heard it before repeatedly and I believe it is true. Now, Bjorn comes here and claims that the discussion about Jagdeo 'awakened' his memories of being molested at age ten. He claims he had forgotten this incident until we 're-traumatized' him here. I said then and I will say it again: I think this is bullshit and Bjorn is lying about being molested or lying about having forgotten it. A person just doesn't forget that kind of stuff. Also Dave, about the header thing: I emailed you about 24 hours ago at the worldwide link hotmail box. Did you receive it? Is that the only way to contact you? I don't see a link at the top of this page for email contact. Perhaps we need one there. --- Hi Gerry, It's true that children often forget about sexual abuse or any other type of abuse. It's called having occluded memories. It's been controversial because some professionals claim it's not possible, but it is. What Bjorn claims what happened is that he was triggered, not reabused, although I have read different accounts of his stories and have many doubts about his veracity about ANYTHING! One reason I disbelieve him (at this point) is because he claimed he was abused by a 15 year old cousin. He recently posted that 'he didn't get his perpetrator's name.' Setting Bjorn aside for a moment, it is very possible for children to 'bury' all recollection of being abused, and as I said, memories can come back for no clear reason except for something that might trigger the subconscious mind to bring it to the surface. And the memories don't usually come back like motion picture. Sometimes, they come in a flash, or many flashbacks, and sometimes in fragments. So actually, you and David are both correct. No child ever forgets their abuser. Even if the memories are hidden. From experience, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:37:44 (EDT) From: xx Email: None To: xx Subject: dave delete? Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:37:43 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: How does it work?? Message:

What's the psychological mechanism for occluded memories? Any pointers to further information on this? What do you think about the so-called false memory syndrome?

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 18:10:14 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: How does it work? Message:

my personal study of the false memory syndrome generally indicates that the real memories surface unbidden and unexpectedly, without any counselor encouraging or 'leading' the person who had the traumas. in the false memory cases i have looked at, the 'helping person' was damned eager, aggressive and personal-agenda driven to lead the victim, to suggest, tell, even push them, to produce 'memories' that satisfied the counselor's own beliefs. i say this with reference to everything from little children in daycare, on up to grown women in therapy. by contrast, real memories, that are buried for survival's sake, float to the surface without anyone's deliberate agenda operating. the victim may watch a movie, or see a report on TV, or hear a song, or smell something from the distant past, or may get some bodywork done-such as rolfing or deep tissue massage--and the memory triggers unexpectedly, either whole or more often in flashes and parts, until the person can bear to witness and remember it as it was, again. it may not resolve, either. it may come again and again, for years, with no closure or new direction. it may stay under the surface and result as a lifelong peculiar behavior the person never wants to examine any more closely. not to stereotype, but i was friends with a number of lesbian women who were sexually molested in young childhood by men in their immediate family and their survival reaction was to be with women the rest of their lives. understandable. there are any number of cruel jokes made by males about other heterosexual women who are spoken of as 'frigid', who for reasons even the women can't define, have a block against men, but are not lesbians, either. some of these women arrived at their state unconsciously, stemming back to unremembered or unacknowledged experiences of the same type. occluded memory is no rarity. can you remember what you wore last month on the first day? can you remember who phoned you 5 weeks ago? can you remember what plants grew around your elementary school building? can you remember what you said three hours ago? you can forget things both unimportant and very important to you. it's hardly a damnable thing. the real memories come regardless of anyone's agenda. you can't force em and you can't stop em.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 14:20:45 (EDT) From: Monmot Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: How does it work? Message:

Hey Gerry and Cynthia: I've been taking a break from El Forumo, but like a true addict, I had to take a quick look-see and I came across this thread. All of this to say that a great book to check out is 'Betrayal Trauma: The Logic of Forgetting Childhood Abuse.' The author is Jennifer J. Freyd who's a professor at U. of Oregon. The publisher is Harvard University Press (www.hup.harvard.edu). This book also discusses recovered memory, as well as the forgetting of trauma as a survival mechanism. The 7 chapters: 1. Betrayal Blindness 2. Conceptual Knots 3. Context and Controversy 4. Why Forget 5. Ways of Forgetting 6. Testable Predictions 7. Creating Connections If you're interested in this subject (memory and its many mutations are fascinating to me), then this is a great book to have in your library. Hope all is well. Ciao M

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:01:19 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Monmot: WOW! Message:

Hi Monmot, Pamela J. Freyd is the daughter of Pamela Freyd and (John??) who are the founders of The False Memory Syndrome Foundation. I looked up her website. All this is making me sick. I've gotta take a break today. Sexual abuse is soul murder! Childhood Theft! Life without parole for the perps! I feel like I need to take a shower. I am very interested in Jennifer Freyd's book, however; later..... Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:48:52 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Thanks Cynthia, Monmot, and Janet Message:

Thanks for your responses. I read Satan Remembered several years ago as it was about a case in the county in which I was living at the time. The author made a very good case for false memory syndrome and the instillation of false memories by over zealous therapist. I do believe this happens. Thanks again for the conversation. Sometimes I feel like I don't respond adequately and timely enough on some posts. I hope no one takes it as lack of interest or respect. I got the shit whupped outta me on a regular basis as a kid and endured daily humiliation and shame as 'learning lessons' so I have a lot of sympathy for sexually abused kids and am taking a volunteer rape/crisis training under the supervision of my MSW gal pal, sometime this fall.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:04:18 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Thanks Cynthia, Monmot, and Janet Message:

Hi Gerry, Thanks for your concern. Don't minimize any pain, neglect or abuse you experienced as a child just because it didn't happen to be sexual. All children are precious and no one deserves to be hurt. I'm sorry you were hit so much as a child. Daily humiliation is no picnic either. I have to be careful when I write about this stuff or else I trigger myself! I take full responsibility for how I react to these discussions, and excuse myself when personally required. Just had a panic attack, logged off. Settled myself down, and now I'm back. So many people in general have no clue how much damage is done to a child who isn't loved, but hurt. Be well, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 14:12:02 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: How does it work? Message:

What's the psychological mechanism for occluded memories? Any pointers to further information on this? What do you think about the so-called false memory syndrome? --- Hi gerry, This site below discusses dissociation, which is what causes memories to become hidden, along with PTSD, and related disorders that come along with childhood trauma: http://www.voiceofwomen.com/centerarticle.html It's difficult to explain dissociation but it happens to all people on some level. There is no diagnosis called 'False Memory Syndrome.' You can look it up, but I refuse to go to their website because in my opinion, it is nothing more than a bunch of perps who committed incest and got high brow professionals to sign on. It is an organization which was started when a female psychology professor at Washington University confronted her parents about incest with her father. The backlash began. I read her story years ago, when this organization got started. It ruined her career because in their own denial of their daughter's incest, they went public on her, contacted her employer, etc. It's an organization which many incest perps look to because they want to deny their crimes. I don't say all members are perps, just the founders and original members. In my case, I always felt as if I were sexually abused, but the other heinous behavior of my father to me, my sisters and mother made it impossible for me to bear it all, i.e., in order to live day to day I had to forget something or I surely would have died. On some of the cult sites I've read that in particular, meditation cults use meditation, along with other programming, to put people into a trance-like state. People like me, who dissociate very easily, go into fugue-states, are extra susceptible to auto-hypnotic states such as meditation, etc. It's no wonder I fell into m's trap so easily. Btw, I feel very strongly about this subject and I know some folks don't believe dissociation exists in the extreme (MPD, or DID), so I'm not willing to debate the issue about occluded memories because I know that it happens and how it happens. Believe me, remembering any kind of severe child abuse is no picnic. And psychotherapists are not a panacea to getting over it, either, although with a good one, much progress can be made. Some shrinks are clueless about anything but handing out pills (which is just about all they know about). That's all for now... Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 10:42:41 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: David Subject: No, it's the Crowns. Message:

Never said that Dave. But you are drawing a long bow. Does this mean that the Prime Minister was responsible for his ministers sexual misconduct? It's just not feasible. It's Jagdeo's responsibility. My point below is that the spider is likely over 90. I suggested criminal law rather than pursuing a frivilous and doomed civil litigation that some here seem hellbent on . Quite simply it would never fly for a lot of reasons I'm not going to discuss. Their is no statute of limitations on the type of crime he has been accused of. Hence I suggested that to be the best avenue of getting a result. Simply being practical and speaking with more than a modicum of experience.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 18:18:58 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: No, it's the Crowns. Message:

cat, are you telling us that you yourself have personal experience in this? you speak of having more than a modicum of experince. I would be interested to listen to what you did. what was the case about, what did you want, what did you find out you had to do, how long ago this hapened, and so on. were you molested, yourself?? at what age? more than once? how did you react to it? did you have help from anyone or any entity? talk to me, seriously. you've got my attention. how did you learn yours?

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 13:13:05 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: CW Subject: Dear daft one.. Message:

You see, CW, the thing is that Jagdeo has apparently vanished so there isn't going to be a trial is there now. Even if I didn't have pneumonia at the moment I could hardly afford the time or energy to hunt him down in India could I. Do you have any idea how many people live in India. So your suggestion is not practical and the expereince you boast about must be very limited in scope. But hey, maybe the neumonia will get worse and I'll die and then the Jagdeo problem will go away!

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 14:16:45 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Abi Subject: Abi, don't listen to the Cat... Message:

Hi Abi, Catweasal is just a creep who doesn't know what he's talking about. I'm sorry you're so sick. I got your email and will write back soon. Give yourself lots of love and comfort! Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:10:01 (EDT) From: Chambolle Musign Email: None To: CW Subject: Cat, If 'Simply being practical' Message:

was the modus operandi of this site they'd all be practicing Knowledge and having a blast. It's about the condition of the grapes man, the grapes! Blaming M is like blaming the vineyard owner for someone getting cazoodled. Our good Knight must be extremely bored methinks.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 13:22:36 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Chambolle Musign Subject: but what if Message:

you still meditated and you still had questions. Everytime I close my eyes I see light. I hear music all the time. It's been like that since I got knowledge when I was thirteen. It just wont go away. But I still have questions.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 20:55:09 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Chambolle Musign Subject: Chambolle Musign is Passing Through [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 14:03:44 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Chambolle Musign Subject: Can't you read English?? Message:

I'm not blaming the Maha for child abuse, here. I am blaming him for doing nothing about it now that he does clearly know about it and has accepted it happened. He doesn't give a damn about the victims. So what does that make him? "Uncaring" would be a massive understatement.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 00:25:41 (EDT) From: Monsignor Musign Email: None To: David Subject: He does care Dave Message:

and he is doing something about it. It's just that he has untold more people to 'care' about than we do and he's busy doing about a thousand other things every week that we don't have much of a take on, except when we're fortunate enough to get caught up in the circus when it's in town. I know that, among the exes, you would have the insight and intelligence to understand this. I sent him a tape once, it took almost three years before he called me up to say thanks very much, that was beautiful. The trouble with unchecked, unbalanced, resetful emotions is that they completly ignore the file marked 'Patience'. Sad.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 16:24:46 (EDT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Monsignor Musign Subject: Monsignor, what would be more important Message:

than dealing with the jagdeo/abuse issue? I'm really quite curious about your perspective on this. Let's agree that m is extremely busy, all the time. Can you tell me a few things that should come BEFORE dealing with this issue, especially since it would only take a few phone calls and a visit or two? We know that m doesn't work for a living like most of us do. He lives off of donations and contributions, so he doesn't really have to do much to stay alive, does he? So in his busy schedule each day of 'spreading knowledge', can you tell me a few things that would be so important that he couldn't find some time to deal with this? OR, is he possibly hiding/denying/stalling?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 03:42:20 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Monsignor Musign Subject: Nonsense Message:

All it would take is a phone call to wherever Jagdeo is living. He could even phone from his luxury yacht. I have employees. If one of them had accused another one of sexually abusing one of their children, I'd find the time to check out the facts and bring the said abuser to book.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 06:04:22 (EDT) From: Monsignor Musign Email: None To: David Subject: Don't be bloody absurd Message:

'All it would take is a phone call to wherever Jagdeo is living' Yea RIGHT I've been looking at your posts today and have surmnised that you're just in a silly, thoroughly bitchy mood, with everyone. Put the sword down, take off the armour, find yourself a comely wench and swig on a glass of ale. Obviously you have never ever been close to the action around M and his daily activities. You guys can spray on about Lard of the Universe, Bighead, Fatboy etc etc but the fact is, M is one of the busiest people on this planet right now. I thought that you Dave, would fucking understand at least THAT much - whether you agree with what he's doing or not. Apparently not. God you guys are so bloody annoying sometimes...

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 09:55:36 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Monsignor Musign Subject: Busy Sitting on His Throne Message:

which is probably gold plated. Maharaji doesn't do anything but play. Busiest person in the world my ass! Ever talk to a poor single mother with three jobs and no money at the end of the week? Maharaji looks likes he's busy--but he's just playing around with toys bought for him by premies. If that's what you like, so be it. I DON'T!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:23:56 (EDT) From: Monsignor Musign Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Awe come on Cynth! Message:

You must know he got rid of the heated, sterophonic, adjustable, air conditioned throne in the late 70's. He just uses a pissy little secretarial chair these days. Has for years.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 08:00:19 (EDT) From: David Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Monsignor Musign Subject: Wrong again and here's why Message:

I am one of the busiest people on the planet these days. Three children on holiday from school, taking them all over the place, a business to run and this fun place. And if someone abused one of my employees' children, I'd find the time buddy, believe me.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 11:28:38 (EDT) From: Monsignor Musign Email: None To: David Subject: Yea well... Message:

That's probably how you got to be called 'Sir' Dave! Pia passed on by the way. She stayed clear, aware and bright right until the end. M mentioned her at 1000 Oaks.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:08:23 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: CW Subject: And such sensitivity in your use of language Message:

I'd forgotten what an idiot you were

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 10:51:32 (EDT) From: Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: CW Subject: Re: No, it's the Crown's Message:

Yeah but a prime minister doesn't own his minister's lives like Maharaji owns his Mahatmas or whatever he calls them. Also, a prime minister, if he knew one of his ministers was accused of paedophile activities, would not let the minister 'disappear' but would ensure the abuser was brought to book. It would be a political disaster to do otherwise.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 10:58:41 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Dave Subject: Re: No, it's the Crown's Message:

Ok, but you are projecting. If M was to know Dettmers would have had to tell him. His story doesnt ring true . Lets say I know a little. Dettmers is covering his arse. People like Mike saw it as their duty to shield M from such incidents. I never have.To respond you have to know. I was around when JD retired.And he did.I think if any-one took the trouble to search , he wouldn't be too hard to find.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 18:32:33 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: No, it's the Crown's Message:

you say you were around when jagdeo retired. and you assert that he REALLY retired. you mean, as in, no more work, no more touring, no more being a traveling mahatma? staying in one spot and living like an old man with nothing more to do in life but breeath, eat, sleep and reminisce? you speak in a way that seems leading, implying that you yourself know where he is, and that anyone could discover it if they knew where to look. if you know, or know how to find out, why aren't you doing that for abi? what do you get from keeping it to yourself?? don;'t you understand that colluding in that makes you a part of his crimes by extension? the laws today are written to paint anyone who has the information and doesnt report it, to be complicit in the crime. cat, by all means, if you think you know where he is, or how to locate him, then for god's sake, do so and bring it to the table!!! i can understand you wanting to protect maharaji, but jagdeo????

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 13:15:45 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: CW Subject: not that old stunt again Message:

Oh, sure. It is Dettmers fault. Why are you always doing this strange secretive trick of acting like you know something and hinting at things and never actually saying or doing anything which means anything much? Do you have PAM envy or are you a PAM? Come on CW come clean. ps Maharaji has a fat ass

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:24:06 (EDT) From: Catweasel Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: not that old stunt again Message:

What do you think. Could I trust you? Off site? From what I've seen I'm dubious. That is why I am vaccilating. PS; Your definitions to me are irrelevant(PAM etc) They were coined here by disatisfied souls).Lets say I can get around.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 07:28:42 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: trust Message:

It seems to me that people in Elan Vital are very paranoid. People in Elan Vital don't trust me because they think I have an ex-premie agenda. Really I am weary of all the silly games. If you really want to do something to get to the bottom of the Jagdeo thing then I'm sure you know what to do. If you don't trust me then fine. At the moment I feel sad and just want to get better. All of this is sordid and hurtful.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 08:41:37 (EDT) From: Catweasel Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: trust Message:

Elan Vital? Figment of over active imaginations. As Robert De Niro says 'Are you talking to me?' Yes you are. Can I help ? Yes I can. How? Stay posted and relax. It will take a little while. Forget about India though.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:30:01 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Re: trust Message:

He had this really horrible eye. Really nasty. And he stank.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 12:29:35 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: CW Subject: Retired From WHAAT? Message:

Ok, but you are projecting. If M was to know Dettmers would have had to tell him. His story doesnt ring true . Lets say I know a little. Dettmers is covering his arse. People like Mike saw it as their duty to shield M from such incidents. I never have.To respond you have to know. I was around when JD retired.And he did.I think if any-one took the trouble to search , he wouldn't be too hard to find. --- When did Jagdeo, as you put it, retire? At what age was he when he retired? While he may have retired from being a mahatma, he most likely didn't retire at the time he was abusing American and UK children. He was simply sent away. That tells me that M didn't have any concern whatsoever about Jagdeo's victims, and possible future victims. That's Maharaji's full responsibility. And the comparison of Jagdeo to an underling at a corporation, it just doesn't wash. Maharaji is only interested in saving his own PR ass, and it won't work anymore. Now m and EV are trying to cover it up again. If it never was their responsibility, then why would they bother? Again, m has full ownership type control over those who work closely for him. He was and is in collusion with honchos at EV/DLM to keep Jagdeo out of the places (countries) he perpetrated the crimes.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:13:45 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: CW Subject: GM the sensitive one Message:

You have business contacts, lets leave out all the info that has been posted before about gm's knowledge of this incident. The org is gm's, his every wish is the key, if they are protecting him they do so under his guidance, he is the md after. He is also the serial shagger of his followers, so trying to paint gm as little miss innocent is stupid, but then since when has been displaying intelligence been one of your strong suits.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 23:27:30 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Re: GM the sensitive one Message:

OHHHHHH You abusive little bitch!!!!How dare you bring up 'Business Contacts. You impertinent twerp!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 00:02:20 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: CW Subject: Coming from you I'll take that as a compliment Message:

Impertinent implies higher & lower, see ourselves as superior do we, wonder where you picked that up from, such an attractive aspect. That's what comes from brownnosing lardarse all those years.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 04:04:57 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Perhaps you may reconsider? Message:

Ive never even set eyes on you fat boy. How could I brown nose you? To me you seem fucked up. Hung up about nothing.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 04:17:30 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: CW Subject: And such wit too, a classy act mr intelligence Message:

duh

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 08:46:21 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: hamzen Subject: You really shouldn't Message:

And look you are dribbling.Michael Jordan would be jealous!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 02, 2001 at 12:33:18 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: CW Subject: you're up late Message:

how do manage to function in the day?

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:02:21 (EDT) From: Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: CW Subject: Maharaji's hand washing excersise Message:

Maharaji knows now. That's all that matters and his little talk with Abi's Father clearly indicates that he accepts that Jagdeo has abused people's children. So why has Maharaji washed his hands of it? You tell me.

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Date: Wed, Aug 01, 2001 at 11:07:53 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Dave Subject: Re: Maharaji's hand washing excersise Message:

He hasn't. Take my word on it. I'll pick another frozen moment in time Dave to continue this . It's way too late. I'll catch you in a quieter place? PS Ascot Gold Cup? Who won . Over at AG Cheers and goodnight.

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