Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Aug 02, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Marianne -:- Justice seeking premies -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 22:10:19 (EDT)
__ Sandy -:- Re: Justice seeking premies -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 02:19:46 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- Premies seeking justice -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 06:55:56 (EDT)
__ __ David -:- Re: Premies seeking justice -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:47:16 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- for the record B -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:05:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Just for the record Abi -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:05:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- bye -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 22:49:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- bye, then -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 03:43:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Sorry abouve post is from Bjørn E (not Abi)nt -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:26:50 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Justice seeking premies -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 05:10:40 (EDT)

Birthday God -:- Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:21:43 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- have a wonderful year:) nt -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:29:21 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- Re: Disculta turned a corner.. -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 10:39:03 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- Happy bithday Katie -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 07:01:53 (EDT)
__ Birthday Goddess -:- Re: Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!! -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:06:53 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- hi Robyn -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:41:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: hi Robyn -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:46:42 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:40:59 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta the Crone/Babe -:- Re: Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:16:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- dahling, 50 is nifty!! [nt] -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 02:16:32 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:53:49 (EDT)
__ PatC b) -:- Happy Birthday, sweetie dahling -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:37:13 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Happy Birthday, sweetie dahling -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:56:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Very happy birthday, Darling -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:39:00 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Belated happy birthday from a felow 50yo (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:28:05 (EDT)

Peg -:- request for support -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:18:18 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Welcome back to the Human Race Peg. -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:35:24 (EDT)
__ Jim Sander -:- Hey Peg, I know what you mean... -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 23:49:37 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Hey Peg, I know what you mean... -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 01:47:07 (EDT)
__ Marianne -:- Hello Peg -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:35:53 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: request for support -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:52:51 (EDT)
__ PatC b) -:- You are welcome to email me -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:40:10 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- email Donner or Dettmers? (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:23:51 (EDT)
__ __ Peg -:- Re: email Donner or Dettmers? (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:41:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ David -:- Donner has put himself forward -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:47:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: email Donner or Dettmers? (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:21:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: email Donner or Dettmers? (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:01:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ janet to peg -:- the above has text, not an 'nt' -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:04:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- Peg to Janet -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:30:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: Peg to Janet -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:50:50 (EDT)

jondon -:- what happened -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:30:03 (EDT)
__ la-ex -:- can you elaborate on... -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:38:28 (EDT)

Salam -:- Janet -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:38:26 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: Janet -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:32:48 (EDT)
__ __ PatC b) -:- Well done, Janet! Thanks for tip too. -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 04:33:51 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Knowledge-resume -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:35:01 (EDT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- That's a great post Janet -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:14:07 (EDT)
__ Salam -:- sheesh, forgot the url -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:40:34 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- Re: sheesh, forgot the url -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:40:29 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: What a story, Janet! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:27:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- do one for your history. -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:44:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: do one for your history. -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:27:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Okay -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:13:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Okay...LOL (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:38:29 (EDT)

Passing Through -:- Honesty test -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:05:20 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- either/or is your 'loaded' limited question [nt] -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 02:14:22 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: Honesty test -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:50:46 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- YO TURNER!!!! - Own up.. it's you, isn't it?? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:44:50 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- The One and Only (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:13:43 (EDT)
__ bill-pehaps you should analyze -:- some of your own sentences [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:58:24 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- It depends on what that means -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:56:37 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- Thank you Jim -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:20:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- context -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 01:32:16 (EDT)
__ such -:- I am [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:52:07 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- can't do it with a simple I disagree -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:13:44 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- I'll take that as a 'Don't know' from Selene -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:21:39 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- critical thinking vs individualism -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:29:22 (EDT)
__ __ PatC b) -:- Re: critical thinking vs individualism -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 16:57:37 (EDT)
__ __ Passikng Through -:- Welcome Abi. -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:42:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Are you just pretending to not understand? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:59:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Not understanding Jim (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:24:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- he/she doesn't care -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:17:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- I think therefore I am an ex-premie -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:57:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Library open -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:08:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- try reading then! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:24:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Over and out (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:38:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- I'm too busy reading you! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:37:37 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Individualism? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 07:37:29 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- Collectivism? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:19:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Quck, get me a standing order. -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:41:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- needs attention from Rawat -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:49:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Ah Abi, you are a soul -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:14:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- now that's what I call a zen answer -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:31:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Briefly to Abi -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:49:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ David -:- VERY unhealthy in my view -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 08:03:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Dave the Doctor -:- Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:36:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Hey PT -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 10:09:33 (EDT)
__ Dave -:- Re: Honesty test -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 06:52:57 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- Go for it Dave (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:20:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dave -:- The beach -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:23:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Hang 10 Dave (nt) -:- Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:26:49 (EDT)
__ PatC -:- Honesty test - I disagree too -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:17:13 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- Thank you PatC -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:22:41 (EDT)

Jim -:- Alright! My proposed nominee has accepted! -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:00:40 (EDT)
__ la-ex -:- On second thought Jim, how about... -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:56:06 (EDT)
__ la-ex -:- Great, but what premie will volunteer -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:50:38 (EDT)
__ __ la-ex -:- On third thought, Jim... -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:01:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- A fourth and last thought, Jim -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:11:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- These are all pretty interesting -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:25:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What I just told the premie dave on LG -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:49:01 (EDT)
__ PatC b) -:- See, it pays to be lovable like you -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:41:15 (EDT)
__ Danny -:- My Nominations -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:32:15 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- Re: My Nominations -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 05:20:09 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- My update on LG -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:37:13 (EDT)
__ Zelda -:- Yup. [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:32:09 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Alright! My proposed nominee has accepted! -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:29:35 (EDT)
__ __ me again -:- Sure! [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:35:16 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- BB is ok by me (nt) -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:14:01 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Your votes please? (Exes only) [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:11:12 (EDT)
__ __ Bryn -:- Sounds Good.OK. (nt) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:54:52 (EDT)
__ __ Loaf -:- no problem [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:26:33 (EDT)
__ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Yes. -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 07:13:32 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Sure: Sounds great. NT -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 23:27:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Yes [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 01:05:55 (EDT)
__ __ Selene -:- go for it -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 21:48:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ Ian Dury -:- He sounds perfect, Jim, -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 01:11:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: He sounds perfect, Jim, -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:56:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Ulf -:- yes. nt, -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:31:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry the contrarian -:- NO (NT) -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:30:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- ok,other nominations, folks? [nt] -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:46:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Exactly. If not Beyerstein, who? -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:49:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- If Beyerstein is up for it then he's the man -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:38:47 (EDT)

Deborah -:- Dalai lama's Advice -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 18:56:19 (EDT)
__ such -:- like perjury,pimping,aiding hitmen's flight [nt] -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 21:48:21 (EDT)

Deborah -:- Can we have ID's? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 18:32:50 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- Re: Can we have ID's?????? -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 19:50:28 (EDT)
__ __ Forum God +) -:- No -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:36:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Forum God +) -:- Passing Through is -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:58:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- not another Aussi bloke! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:13:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Passing Through is not -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:48:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- If 'Mala' is also 'Passing through'.. -:- Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 22:17:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- like,'No cheat, no deceit' right! -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:50:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Passing a nasty turd -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:14:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tony -:- Not a blade of grass -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:58:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- My answer to PatC -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:26:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Dermot Munmot -:- Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:51:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mr D -:- Or do they? -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 09:24:56 (BST)


Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 22:10:19 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: All
Subject: Justice seeking premies
Message:
This post is directed to the premies who have been posting here and on all the related sites concerning their expressed desire to see that Abi gets 'justice' from DLM/EV, Maharaji, and Jagdeo for the repeated sexual abuse she endured as a child.

If you really want to help Abi, and believe that she should receive financial compensation for the physical and emotional abuse she suffered at the hands of an employee of DLM, write your own letters to EV, Maharaji and Valerio Pascotto and tell them that's what you think. Post the letters on LG. Create a groundswell of support for Abi. Bring this issue up to your community contacts. Write to your national coordinators.

You don't need to involve Abi in your efforts. They would be so much more genuine if you did it yourselves. I am urging you to do this because it appears that, despite Maharaji's meeting with Abi's dad in Amaroo, all that has happened is further harassment of Abi and her family, as she has reported here.

I am convinced that some of you are genuine in your support for Abi and believe she should be treated fairly and compensated for what was done to her. I have absolutely no faith that anything will come of your letters because Maharaji failed to yield to the heartfelt entreaties of Abi's father and Abi herself on this site. Your personal and public demands, from throughout the world, may have some small impact on the EV decision-makers.

The non-public 'dialogue' which has been going on does not appear to have worked at all. EV only responded when public postings were made here about Abi's situation. If you truly want to do something that might actually help Abi, organize yourselves (without enmeshing Abi in your efforts -- she's done enough already), write the letters and make them public by posting them. Perhaps Maharaji will listen when he realizes that the premies also believe she should be compensated. At this point, they still think she's a weak person who is being manipulated by the evil ex-premies. If you've read her posts, you know she is a strong, independent woman and is no one's pawn.

I hope that some of you will find it within your consciences to act accordingly.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 02:19:46 (EDT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Justice seeking premies
Message:
M,

Thanks for the inspiration and the heads up about the LG site. I went and stepped in it too. I want justice...and mercy too, not Jagdeo's sick head on a platter or anyone else's. But the damage is already done and time has gone by. Even if Maharaji does something now, it will most likely be because of the exerted pressure and the pr issue. Timing means alot, and the timing is off even if he acts now. If he did not deal with it when it happened, I will not be that impressed with yet another performance.

I wonder what Prem would have done to Jag or any other poor sick fool who was clueless enough to mess with HIS kids?

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 06:55:56 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Premies seeking justice
Message:
In an previous post I offered Abi 100 dollars to use for the purpose of chasing Jagdeo. She did not reply, (Later she stated that she felt sorry for me since I had a twisted mind, she has called me a jerk, a creep, and she has told me to FUCK OFF. When I replied to one harrassment post of her, as nice as I could, I was told by Cynthia to stay away from Abi. Sir Dave, posted a treatening post, stating I would be banned, if I harrassed people here again. (Later in an email, he admitted that he had not seen that Abi had been harrassing me.

My offer still stands. I think a fund could be made (administrated by Sir Dave or the person behind LG), so that there could be a possibility for Jagdeo to be prosecuted. But I still think it shoulød be an 'off Forum issue' due to the fact that many people, (myself included) has been sexually abused and suffer from reading about phaedophile issues.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:47:16 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: Premies seeking justice
Message:
I also said in the email, Bjørn, that communication between you and Abi was going nowhere, except to further bad communication and I suggested you drop all communication with Abi about this subject.

This is only one person's responsibility and that is Maharaji's. In his meeting with Abi's Father he mouthed words of regret that abuse had happened. So now, he should follow through and act upon his own (professed) concern otherwise his words of regret are seen to be totally empty.

The only thing that premies need do is ask that Maharaji take on the responsibility for the abuse and do something about it. It's a waste of time appealing to Elan Vital since they're a bunch of sychophants.

Was it Trueman who said, ''The buck stops here.''

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:05:06 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: for the record B
Message:
Listen Mr B,

I tried to be nice to you even though you posted some pretty questionable things. I suggested you drop the issue. I thought maybe you'd decided to be 'nice'. Then after Jim posted his idea for a panel disscusion you vented a great deal of harsh and abusive stuff at him and I butted in, as one does occassionally in this forum, and said that I though you were the twisted one and needed help. I turned what you'd said about Jim back at you. You responded to me by saying that you felt sorry for me and that I should get on with my life (which you know nothing about btw). You were patronising and rude and quite frankly I was feeling a little disgusted with the way you operate here and especially the way you respond to me so, yes, I lashed out and I told you to fuck off.

The way you present our exchanges above, you appear to have offered me money and I then abused you. That's not what happened.

Thanks for offering me $100 but I have to decline because for me that offer comes out of a context which I don't think is sincere or really healthy.

I had no idea you have been sexually abused and I am sorry to hear it.
I hope that you are healing and that whoever did that to you has been brought to justice somehow. But if you think that the idea of bringing Jagdeo to justice should be an 'off Forum issue' on the grounds that discussing the issue will trigger people who have been abused (including me) then I don't follow your logic. This issue is already public. In fact you have often asked for details of the abuse. It is odd that you should now say that this subject is too sensitive to discuss when in the past you have rarely considered this. Doesn't make any sense to me except perhaps that you don't want to put yourself on (the) line and write an open letter to EV, M or whoever.

If you really suffer from reading about pedophile issues just imagine what it is like having premies cross-examining me about why I've been public, and worse still, having people like you fish for details.

Nice one B.

Thanks but no thanks.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:05:08 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Just for the record Abi
Message:
Abi, I was sexually abused as a very imature 10 year old kid. The person who did this was about 15 or 16 and according to my theraphist it was therefore not a crime.
I only addressed you once about the subject (except for replying you), At that time I stated that I was shocked when I heard about it, and I wished you well. (Which is the truth). I also asked a question about your father, I cant remember what, but you answered politely until the FA outed me, my post was deleted and people twisted what I said and so on.
The truth is that the first and the only tread I made about the issue, was stating the fact, which I still find to be true, that Jagdeo should be imprisoned, and the fact that premies at the time it happened were in a religious mood, and had a tendency and a belief that 'grace takes care of everything' and thus to sweep things under the carpet.
I had myself indirectly experienced that. When I lived in the ashram, the housemother (who later became my wife) was sexxually harrassed and almost raped by mahatma Krishnashokanand . Being the 'general secretary' in my country, but organisational under Denmark, I reported it to the person in charge there. The guy did not believe me or my wife so hw did nothing. Later however, Krishnashokanand did the same to another girl, and when M heard about it, Krishnashokanand was immedeately sent back to India. Therefore ironically I think I can understand your anger, though there are some questions I find unanswered, but I realise it is none of my business.
Being the victim also of sincere violence, it is sickening to me both to read about violence and phaedophiles. I am not saying I am not reading about such stuff, but it makes me really upset. As a victim, I also have experienced for myself, never count on anyone; lawyers, police, the law system or whatever. A lot of work has to be done. I have chosen to address this issues, (seemingly with some success to politicians) and I am still working on it. In a way I am working both for my own case and for victims in general. Due to this I have done a 50 page report on my research which is going to be presented to the law committee in a hearing in the parliament.

Anyway, I sincerely wish you get it together, but even if you count on M in this issue, I think that is not going to work out as you maybe hope. The reason for this is quite natural, being 'outsiders' their words dosn't count as much as yours, and they have a lot on their agenda. That is why I offered you a contribution. My offer is still open.
Bjørn

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 22:49:19 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: bye
Message:
Look B, good luck with your report. Hope it has an effect.

Not sure what you mean half the time. Maybe it's a language problem.

Can I suggest that we stop communicating with each other from now on?
I really don't see the point.

Thanks but no thanks

Abi

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 03:43:22 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: bye, then
Message:
Thanks.

There might be a communication problem.

Leave me alone, and I will leave you alone.

And yet still I am a man who has always been seeking justice and fairness, so I can't promise I will not address issues that are of importance for me.

As I have said, I wish you well and hope things are going fine for you

Sincerely Bjørn E

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 18:26:50 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Sorry abouve post is from Bjørn E (not Abi)nt
Message:
Nt
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 05:10:40 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Justice seeking premies
Message:
do you think you'll get a reply?
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:21:43 (EDT)
From: Birthday God
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Perhaps the Birthday Goddess got banned or forget the day or didn't know the day or retired or maybe I missed seeing the announcement. Disculta's 50 birthday was Thursday. Many happy returns!!!!!!
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 11:29:21 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Birthday God
Subject: have a wonderful year:) nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 10:39:03 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Birthday God
Subject: Re: Disculta turned a corner..
Message:
HAppy Birthday disculta !!! (I suspect that the number involved has been greatly exaggerated.)
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 07:01:53 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Birthday God
Subject: Happy bithday Katie
Message:
I remember you with joy from the time we spent in 1560 Race Street toghether. (But I still think you owe me the 10 dollars i sent you to purchase a book for me 'Will the real teacher please rise'.

Hope you are doing fine. If you read my posts have been through rough times, but things are improving every day.

Bjørn E

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:06:53 (EDT)
From: Birthday Goddess
Email: None
To: Birthday God
Subject: Re: Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Happy Birthday Disculta!
No, I didn't know your birthday but your 'in my book' now. :) My older daughter's b-day is the 25th and I just love her! :)
Hope it was a good one.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:41:30 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Birthday Goddess
Subject: hi Robyn
Message:
How is everything with you and yours?

Love, Marianne

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 19:46:42 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: hi Robyn
Message:
Looking up Marianne, thanks. Looks like a multi orgasmic week! :) Jess home on Wed, Jade HOME on Thurs and a wedding where I live on Saturday!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:40:59 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Birthday God
Subject: Re: Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Am not sure if you are supposed to say how old the person is on their birthday, the ladies might complain.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:16:17 (EDT)
From: Disculta the Crone/Babe
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Hey Salam darling, thanks for your concern, I already posted that I love being 50 50 50 50 50.

Say it loud, I'm 50 and I'm proud.

Also, now I've read Janet's Premie Resume idea below (checkitout), I am chanting:

Say it loud, I was a fanatical premie and I'm proud!

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 02:16:32 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Disculta the Crone/Babe
Subject: dahling, 50 is nifty!! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:53:49 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Birthday God
Subject: Re: Disculta turned 50 on 7.26.01!!!!!!!!!
Message:
You are a turn of the century lady.

Hope you had a great birthday bash.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:37:13 (EDT)
From: PatC b)
Email: None
To: Birthday God
Subject: Happy Birthday, sweetie dahling
Message:
Now your next birthday will be your 49th as you go backwards after 50. Well those of us who started our second childhood early do that. Wishing you wealth, health and happiness.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:56:22 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: darlingwave@aol.com
To: PatC b)
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday, sweetie dahling
Message:
Thanks your godliness whoever you are (I think I know!).

Thanks for the well-wishes. I love being 50! Being 50 rocks! Are you coming to my party next week those of you who know me and live near? (E-mail me if you haven't gotten an invite).

love Katie Darling

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:39:00 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Disculta
Subject: Very happy birthday, Darling
Message:
Hi Katie. Happy, happy 50th birthday! Congratulations. And thanks for sharing part of your life with us.

I did get the email about the big doings. Send it to me again, and I'll talk to Rafael about it.

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:28:05 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Birthday God
Subject: Belated happy birthday from a felow 50yo (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:18:18 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: All
Subject: request for support
Message:
I have recently been looking at the ex- premie site in detail... obsessively in fact. Before this I have glanced briefly and only seen things about Maharaji being rich. However since I read what Michael Dettmers has said about alcohol and sex and secrecy it is as if my whole thinking of the last 28 years has been rearranged. At the moment I am not talking about this to anyone,not premies or ex-premies or people who have never been involved.
One thing that scares me about posting on here is that some of the messages do seem to be venomous about Maharaji and premies and I am not sure where I stand at the moment.
What I (of course) would like is to talk to someone close to Maharaji who feels honest but i don't really expect that. Anyway I have never really been a frontliner and am not close to anyone like that.
So I am putting this out in the hopes of having a conversation with someone as that usually works with me to get my feelings clearer. Anyway here's hoping..
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:35:24 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Peg
Subject: Welcome back to the Human Race Peg.
Message:
Hi Peg,

Sounds like you're 'coagulating' to me.

It's a wonderful, moment when the scales start to drop from your eyes, and you stumble back into the light of reality.

If you read the 'Journies' on EPO, and have a look around the other stuff, everything will start to fall into place.

Things can seem quite confusing for a while, as your ancient premie concepts drop away, but hang on in there.

If you want to discuss things offline, there are plenty of folk here who will be happy to chat to you as you exit the cult, including myself.

Take a deep breath and leap Peg. It's totally safe, and you'll be so relieved when you start thinking for yourself again. Even if you get it wrong, at least they will be your own, honest mistakes.

The downside of course, is that you'll lose your air of superiority. As you know, Premies, being disciples of the Living Perfect Master, Messiah, Avatar of the Age etc, are far superior to the rest of the human race- having recognised the creator etc. Unfortunately, this special status has to go.

But when you take your 'devotee hat' off, what you find is, rather than respecting your 'inner wisdom and spiritual state,' your fellow humans saw you a bit of a prat, but were too polite to tell you.

Anth, welcome back to the human race.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 23:49:37 (EDT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Hey Peg, I know what you mean...
Message:
Hi Peg-

I know what you are talking about when you say that 28 years of thinking a certain way can drastically change with the input of some information.

I have gone through many changes in the last year or so, mostly from this information, and talking directly to some of the people posting it.

Feel free to read the letters I wrote to EV about this-they are on the EPO site.
Go to Best of Forum, and look under open letter to EV/M.

Feel free to e-mail me if you'd like to communicate further.

This stuff is disturbing, to say the least, and any thinking/feeling person should really question this and find out the truth.

Unfortunately, maharaji and EV refuse to respond.

I think it is up to us to petition maharaji to honestly address these issues.
The more he evades the truth, the more he hurts the very people he claims to care so much about.

Take care,
Don't let it get you too freaked out,

Jim Sander (sjimsander@aol.com)

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 01:47:07 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Re: Hey Peg, I know what you mean...
Message:
Peg, do read Jim Sander's letters. They are incredibly clear and moving. He wrote them to his community about his concerns about MJ, and they are a model of clear, courageous communication.

All the best

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:35:53 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Peg
Subject: Hello Peg
Message:
Hello Peg. You must be a Margaret. Lapsed Catholic who joined DLM in your late teens possibly? There's lots of us here.

Please keep reading the site, and read the Journeys. Our stories will help you to better understand your own evolving feelings. Your feelings are your own -- that's one good thing about posting here. No need to conform, just be yourself, and come to terms with your own involvement with Maharaji.

The exes who post here have all sorts of differing views about Maharaji and meditation. Some of us are really angry at Maharaji for things he did to us personally, or for things he allowed to happen to people when they were premies. Some of us have fond memories of our involvement and grew out of it early on. Frankly, I find myself bouncing among these categories.

We are not a hate site, even though the premies like to call us that. But we have gotten over the heresy of criticizing Maharaji. Even though I had been out of the cult for nearly 25 years when I found this site in 1999, I felt emotionally stymied when I wrote down some criticisms of Maharaji in my posts. I was amazed that the conditioning was still there. As for being shell shocked at having spent so many years in a cult, well, all I can say is that you were in good company. Lots of those who post here have made the same lament.

Sort your feelings out in your own way. This is a very personal process, and it goes through phases. There are many genuine, caring, supportive folks who will extend themselves to you and offer assistance. You can read the archives and the Journeys to get a sense of who we are in order to decide to whom you wish to respond.

Welcome here, and welcome to a liberating new viewpoint. It's scary in the beginning but you'll feel a weight off your shoulders in the near future.

Good luck with your journey. Feel free to email me.

Marianne Bachers

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:52:51 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: Jai_Choix@webtv.net
To: Peg
Subject: Re: request for support
Message:
welcome. you are exactly where we all started. everyone here remembers. there's noreason to fear the so called 'venomous' posters. their postings say more about them than they do about you.

i understand your state, having been there myself. a great deal of what is going on inside you now is unconscious or subconscious, and it takes its own time to work its way out. while it is, you will feel unstable and confused and not know what you feel clearly. it's ok. ultimately this is a n experience of discovering YOURSELF. it's not so much about maharaji, in the end. it's about finding your real integrity and getting yourself back. no one's salvos of opinion have as much impact on you as your own realizations. don't be surprised if you blow hot and cold, go from mad to sad to bad and back again, in cycles. there's a looooootttt of programming jammed down in there, and it takes your psyche time to un jam it and expel it. but the good news, is, once someone helps you break the lock holding the lid on the box, you can begin to unbend and unwind and stretch out again, and gradully resume your natural, original shape you knew yourself as, before you got blindsided by this entity with an agenda.

you've come to the right place. you're among those who have done it. we will recognize the stages as you go through them. we do this for you. that's a fact.

we didn't come looking for you, recruiting, looking to spirit you away from your own life. you found the site and did your own looking, and have reached this turning point by your own brains and guts. what happens now is unique and strictly your own awakening. we can only be here and let you know it was like that for us as well.

as uncmfortable as it may be to not know for a while, after 28 years of carping and counting on th brainwashed assurance that we Knew The Answer, it is normal and ok to be unclear and changing a lot while you return to your original shape and reclaim your own intelligence and sovereignty.
coming here is your best place. despite what the detractors claim about us, we won't try to program or deprogram you. you unkink those for yourself as you discover them..we just designate a place that's precisely for that purpose, and offer whatever we have found to be helpful. how it plays in your brain is all yours. we have nothing to gain out of it. we already have gotten ourselves back, and that's all we wanted .

again--welcome. come in. thats what we're here for.
you're crumpled from being shut in the box, but you arent broken. luckily, the fabric of your being has memory, and will return to its true shape, now that the box has been taken off. it won't exactly spring back instantly, but it WILL spread back out and get back to what it's supposed to be.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:40:10 (EDT)
From: PatC b)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Peg
Subject: You are welcome to email me
Message:
I was not a EV honcho but a big donor for 28 years and know a few frontliners mostly instructors. I discovered this forum 6 months ago.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:23:51 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: email Donner or Dettmers? (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:41:21 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: email Donner or Dettmers? (nt)
Message:
Thanks for your suggestion . Don't they get a million and one e-mails? Have they put themselves forward for this? I think they have been generous already.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:47:12 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Peg
Subject: Donner has put himself forward
Message:
Donner has put himself forward, as have others. Donner's email address is at the above linked Support Network web page.
[ Suppport network ]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:21:28 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: email Donner or Dettmers? (nt)
Message:
Peg, Hi my name is Deborah. I came by two years ago accidently and took a peek and I saw the same thing you're describing.

Two months ago I came by intentionally to read some posts. Michael Dettmers' post was the first I found. It blew me away for two reasons:
One, of course, was the contents. It sickened me. All the doubts I held over the years as I drifted away were softened by the comforting impression that at least 'Maharaji never did THAT'. Wow, was I ever disappointed. Shocked as hell.

Two, was the fact that I was very aware of his position. Michael Dettmers was a name some premies knew but never knew anything about. He was shrouded in mystery. I used to hang out with his brother in Miami. And, of course, every now and then, Michael's brother would tell stories from Michael's involvement and proximity to Maha.
I knew that he handled Maha's affairs. So when I read his posts, I knew instantaneously, it was true.

So, I emailed him. He responded very quickly. This was comforting for me. And he told me many exes have contacted him and were continuing to do so. He has also been mature enough to help some of the women who were sexually abused by Maha.

One of the posters on the EPO also happens to live in walking distance from where I live. This helps me a lot. Coming here and discovering this stuff scared the shit out of me. It' nice to have someone to talk to who truly understands.

The need to both dig up the past and resolve it are seemingly conflicting, indeed. But this is your life. Do what you have to do.

Please feel free to email if you want to talk off forum. This is relatively new for me as well.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:01:01 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: email Donner or Dettmers? (nt)
Message:
that sense of humility and belif that they are somehow 'bigger' than you are is one of the classic symptoms of cult brainwash.
the answer is no--both michaels are just plain ordinary humans like yourself and they both welcome your asking. be warned--donner's written emails are rife with misspellings. he lets his warts show happily. he's not worried about being his real live self!

that heirarchical stuff is an artifice. its a house of cards built by imaginary ego and imaginary importance.
in fact....( she leans over gently)
allow me to pull away another wall of that box for you
---
-
here.
doesn't that feel better? i won't laugh if you fall out slowly. the stiffness leaves in degrees.

here's their emails:

dettmers@gylanix.com,

mdonner@netidea.com

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:04:59 (EDT)
From: janet to peg
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: the above has text, not an 'nt'
Message:
forgot to correct the subject line
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:30:17 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: janet to peg
Subject: Peg to Janet
Message:
Thanks for all emessages and Michael addresses.
I am new to posting on internet too.
I prickle a bit when you talk of my symptoms of cult brainwashing. I think that neurosis preceded maharaji although I don't suppose he helped. I am hating to think that I have been part of a cult for more than half my life. I know every other master and answer to life spawned a cult but surely not the one I was involved with. AAARGH!
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:50:50 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Peg to Janet
Message:
yup. it's started. the self hating seethes awhile, but it boils off. it won't last. don't be afraid tosay whatever is on the surface at the moment. it all keeps moving thru. the bad stuff doesnt last. don't think you're nuts or sick or get down on yourself (for very long).
isnt it a law in chemistry or physics that if you keep something under pressure a long time, you have to let it off slowly, or you risk explosion? so consider this the early stages of the valve being turned and the hissing being the sound of the pent up internal pressure beginning to come out.

as someone once assured me during a horrendous illness;;'it hurts more coming out than it did going in. going n, you didnt have the luxury of time to pay attention to it. coming out, you can see all of it at your leisure, and feel it for what it really was'.
look at it like a tremendous cleansing. it hurts as it leaves you, but its a good kind of hurt you wouldnt want to keep stuffed inside, and go on living in, piling still more on top of it.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:30:03 (EDT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: All
Subject: what happened
Message:
Wow, go away for a couple of months and the whole cyberworld has changed. I got some info. on the reason for the change on this site from JD, but it seems to much for me to try to comprehend. I came back from the west coast to greet the Lord of the Universe in person back here in Massachusetts, but he is a no show this weekend. I guess that Dave Mancophf does'nt have the juice he pretends to have, what with rubbing elbows with the Rawat Clan and all. And he was so sure that it was confirmed. Nice call Dave.

A recent visit to these parts by Dave Snider (?) and his lovely wife revealed some tidbits about the K-Lite DVD and some of the stuff she tried to do with it but could'nt, interesting. I should be getting more info on that soon. I have a couple of friends attending the K-Lite retreat in August. A couple of fence sitters who have now become ex's but haven't let on. We should get some audio from this and maybe more.

I will bid all adieu. This site just does'nt seem the same. I will check in occasionally but will still be posting on AG, as always, under my original handle. Stay tuned, this August 11th shindig should prove eventful.

Bye to all, jondon

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:38:28 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: can you elaborate on...
Message:
Jondon-

Can you elaborate on:

1-the k-lite dvd that you talked about.

2-the Aug 11 k-lite retreat?

Thanks,
la-ex

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:38:26 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: it-is-soau@yahoo.com.au
To: All
Subject: Janet
Message:
I just thought to mention that in the name list, on it-is-so, your name is linked to the page that you requested published.

check here

I've made it clear to all the charlies that the author of the page is the rightful copyright owner.

If anyone is interested in having a rap posted about them, my e-mail is up.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:32:48 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: Janet
Message:
cool. yess , i checked it yesterday when you posted the link.
you know, i found composing my 'knowledge resumé' more powerful than anything i have done as an ex to date.
I came to realize, as i poured it out, that it hit me for the first time, how many years i was crushed down in the premie world, with repeated put downs to keep me believing that i was 'bongos', not worthy, a piece of shit, a lowly nothing, that i had to try harder, that i should feel bad for the way i did or didn't do things i wa asked to or told to--

and i realized, as i wrote it, that i was rising up in explosion of self value, to destroy once and for all that continuing premie campaign of grinding down my self esteem.

take a good look at the things they keep saying about us!!
charles' site? Pia's? Elan Vital?? Look at how they do it right now, in present day!!

The more I wrote about my 'knowledge resumé', the more it dawned on me that , goddamnit-- I was NOT some sniveling little pathetic urchin, scuttling around the furtive edges of the mighty, shining castle, begging for scraps at the back door!!

I was right THERE, in the thick of it, where the ACTION was! I had Maharaji walk me through Heathrow and escort me into England personally, the first day I met him, and I was there for him and no other reason.
I was there, in the depths of New York City, at the ashram, in the bowery, on the streets of midtown manhattan, in the trains, in the restaurant smack in the center of grand central, fifth avenue, times square and the public library, living it. I went out fearlessly into the new york city public maelstrom and stood my ground and blazed what i had found into people's eyes and ears, hearts and souls, against all their new york city hardass walls of denial and avoidance. And dammit, I got through to them, despite their pretenses of being 'too busy'. I EARNED my Knowledge rank, the RAW way. How many of these bashers who speak of us in such dismissive terms ever laid themselves out for the cause as nakedly as I did? I'll be DAMNED if i'll let some snotty, cold, prissy, judgemental, fake little shit hide behind their precious Elan Vital prim façade, and call ME 'confused'.
Let's see them do what i did! Let's see them live hmeless in NYC and count on nothing but Grace to protect them! Let's see them stand out in midtown at lunch hour and get people's genuine attention by the sheer strength of their radiance and conviction and genuine experience!!

COME ON. I DARE them to prove their realization the way i did!

I was in Denver for Maharaji's wedding. Damned straight I was. That's why i went and I witnessed the legendary 7 programs leading up to it.
I was THERE when rainbow grocery went from our private co-op, to a public and countrywide chain to show america how a business COULD be. I STILL have yet to see another health food chain of stores that can operate with the consciousness that WE had. WIld Oats sure as hell ain't it! GNC? Name me one! WE were IT! I KNOW what we had. I KNOW what knowledge had. I mean to shut these mealy mouthed lying bastards up once and for all. I walked my talk. I lived it 100%. No one is gonna tell me I don't know what Knowledge can do. I know.

I once took a resuméwriting seminar, and they told us before we got started, that we probably had never made so much focused effort to think of ourselves in such positive, affirmative, valuable terms before, and that we were going to be surprised by the time we were done with the course.

I never understood that until i wrote mine in Knowledge.

I urge each of you to try writing your own 'knowledge resumé's'.
it's different from your journey. the journey is more of an emotional evolution. your resume is more of a matter of your value, dignity, pride, fact
of presence and valid membership.
Do it with intent to destroy once and for all the claims that you must not have understood, or practiced, or really given yourself to it, or only hung around the edges pretending to be part of it.

After having written mine, I told salam i wanted it to go up exactly the way it was written. I want them to see it.

Let's see Charles Glasser go stand out on the sidewalk in midtown Manhattan at lunchtime and personally look into the eyes of thousands of strangers treaming past him in a bug hurry to get somewhere, and let's see HIM stop them in their tracks with the sheer compelling truth in his voice, the blazing holiness in his face, the heart-stopping compassion radiating from his soul and the complete absence of fear in his demeanor.

I DID IT, CHARLES. 24-7 IN MIDTOWN, WITH NOTHING BUT MY EXPERIENCE, AND I CHANGED THE COURSE OF PEOPLE'S LIVES.
LET'S SEE YOU DO IT NOW.

Put up or shut up.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 04:33:51 (EDT)
From: PatC b)
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Well done, Janet! Thanks for tip too.
Message:
Charles K-lite Glasser probably wouldn't have K if it weren't for you and all us other fanatical premies.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:35:01 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Knowledge-resume
Message:
I like it.

Hey, thanks for your help with the other stuff.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:14:07 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: That's a great post Janet
Message:
Exactly how it was at maximum intensity .

Glasser doesn't know what he's missing.

It would do his ego a power of good too if he could just get out there in his spare time , say a couple of evenings a week with a pile of Divine Times & tell people face to face that the Lord is here .

Why not ? We did.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:40:34 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: sheesh, forgot the url
Message:
cut and paste, saves me time.

http://www.geocities.com/it_is_soau/who/minijourney/janet.html

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:40:29 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: sheesh, forgot the url
Message:
don't call them 'mini-journeys'. that diminishes them in language that reduces them to something small and negligible. let's call them our 'knowledge resumé's'. make em objective and factual and powerful. we all know where we went, what we did, who we worked with, why we did it.
refute lies with facts. rebut smears with dignity. confound libel with realities.

stand up for yourselves and speak out who you are.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:27:35 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: What a story, Janet!
Message:
Salam, thanks for that post.

Janet: That's a whole other side of the premiedom, and what an ugly side, indeed. I never saw shit like that first hand. Amazing that you could have been that close and important to Maha at one time only to later suffer senseless, thoughtless humility. Truly Amazing.

p.s. I'm glad you're here.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:44:50 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: do one for your history.
Message:
watch what happens to your self esteem as you see your actions in a whole new light. not shame. ferocious value.knowing who you are. fatal blows to the empire.
join me. have a taste of it. lifechanging. write yours.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:27:04 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: do one for your history.
Message:
I will. Thanks for the encouragement. I keep thinking I'll start but other things come up and I think maybe I want to sort out more of this shit but that might be procrastination.

p.s. It was a very moving story. How could people not get angry coming here and finding out about all this stuff.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:13:08 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Okay
Message:
I will write mine one of these days.

It's an interesting way to reclaim some energy. Say it LOUD. I was a fanatical premie and I'm PROUD!

Yeah!

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 20:38:29 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Okay...LOL (nt)
Message:
XX
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:05:20 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Honesty test
Message:
Abi says that 'individualism is the refuge of the irresponsible'.
I could hardly disagree more.
What do you think?
I'm interested to see whether this is a common ex opinion or not.
A simple 'I agree' or 'I don't agree' as the subject heading will make for a quick conclusion.
PT
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 02:14:22 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: either/or is your 'loaded' limited question [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:50:46 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Re: Honesty test
Message:
i think she was citing it in illustration of those who trot it out everytime they are cornered in their own cavalier immorality.
i think both are necessary to adult maturing. one needs to know both the definition of one's sovereign and personal individuality and one's inextricable answerability to the whole. One cannot exist apart from it.
the answer is 'both/and', not either/or.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:44:50 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co,uk
To: Passing Through
Subject: YO TURNER!!!! - Own up.. it's you, isn't it??
Message:
You have been stringing us along all this time..

(I have the negatives)

I asked you whther you were the original 'Passing Through'. You didn't reply. Maybe embarassed because you were that PT, or otherwise reluctant to admit who you previously posted here as...?

I'm not sure - but maybe if Turner is reading he/she will show up to deny such a sordid accusation...?

Correct me if I am wrong, PT, but it looks bloody obvious to me.

Yours in His Grace etc..

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:13:43 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The One and Only (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:58:24 (EDT)
From: bill-pehaps you should analyze
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: some of your own sentences [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:56:37 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: It depends on what that means
Message:
The way that phrase makes sense to me is exactly the way I think Abi intended it. Take David Andersen for example. Yet another premie trying to avoid any discussion about Maharaji or Knowledge on the basis that he, David, is an 'individual' and thus no one could ever know anything significant about what his so-called 'experience' is who Maharaji is to him. That kind of individualism is bullshit.

It's as dumb as saying that I had sex last night and there's NO WAY anyone on the planet could ever understand what that was like for me. Sure, you could understand. We could talk about it. As much as there's so much room for variety in personalities and the like, there are some common aspects to the experience. That's just one example; I'm sure we could think of millions. So, in that sense, individualism's just what Abi said, essentially a hiding place.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:20:04 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thank you Jim
Message:
Jim says: Individualism is essentially a hiding place.
PT: So that when an individual seeks to express an opinion that is different from the group, they're hiding?
I would have thought that was standing oout.
PT
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 01:32:16 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: context
Message:
You keep taking things out of context and then twisting them around. That's not a fair way of debating.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:52:07 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: I am [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:13:44 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: can't do it with a simple I disagree
Message:
You told me to 'give it up ' IN A POST BELOW.

NO ONE IS FORCING YOUR DAZZLING BRAIN TO READ MY POSTS AT LEAST SOMEONE KNOWS WHEN IT'S ME AND THEREFORE CAN CHOOSE TO READ ME OR NOT

fuckface lying creep that you are why do not you get lost you stinkpile of shit
There. Honest enough for you? SC Crumpet MW Marolyn Ezekial whoever else you are you sicko freak?
I'm sick of you I wish you were blocked from here for good
There, honest enough for you?
Bite my what you called a fat ass

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:21:39 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I'll take that as a 'Don't know' from Selene
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:29:22 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: critical thinking vs individualism
Message:
By individualism I am thinking of the way that certain premies, when challenged about the possibility they might be in a cult, refer to their own personal experience as a way of passing through (or avoiding) some of the more problematic criticisms made by people who think there is something a bit exploitative about the cult. Some premies just try and terminate discussions with ex's by saying that they have a pleasant experience with Maharaji as if that was really the issue. It's almost like saying I like buying Nike products, they make me feel good, so why should I care about how Nike make their things.

By individualism I do not mean the ability to practice critical thinking which is what I think Pat C thinks I mean. I just don't think that thinking ever happens in a vacuum and that the tools we use to think critically come from the world around us, the conversations we have with other people, the words we read, how we are trained to process information.

I think there is something very paradoxical about the way that a sort of slick feel-good American individualism has become part of the EV ethos ('it's about you', it's about having fun, enjoying life, etc) when on the other hand it is also about having a Master, kissing his feet and the rest of the Hindu thing.

Also, I think that the idea that every premie has this deep personal connection with Maharaji and that no-one can ever really articulate what that special connection is, is a little bit spooky.

In fact I think the whole idea of kissing someones feet and thinking they are God is a bit spooky and it is ironic that the rhetoric of individualism is used to defend what looks like a form of brainswashing and fundamentalism. But then how else to describe it?

Abi who thinks Nike are exploitative.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 16:57:37 (EDT)
From: PatC b)
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: critical thinking vs individualism
Message:
That American individualism taken ad absurdum is nauseating and manifests as road rage where drivers shoot you if you honk at them. I'm not sure why you mentioned me because I did not disagree with you. Perhaps better words to describe Rawat and his gurupies is ''solipsism'' or ''narcissism.'' I am constantly astonished and disgusted by the premie trolls who post here. Another word that comes to mind is ''antisocial.'' The worst seem to be bordering on sociopathy.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:42:09 (EDT)
From: Passikng Through
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Welcome Abi.
Message:
Thanks for jumping on the Nike bandwagon, we do need your support.
I appreciate your reference to Nologo.
But you did say 'individualism is the refuge of the irresponsible'.
And yet you just used the phrase 'I think' five times in seven paragraphs.
Give it up!
We all behave like gods.
PT
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:59:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passikng Through
Subject: Are you just pretending to not understand?
Message:
What's with you, PT? I read her explanation and it made perfect sense to me. Perfect. Yet you, the one who raised the issue to begin with, seem to miss all of it. You premies ...

You can see why I'm so into this panel thing. There's just no talking with you guys.

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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:24:28 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not understanding Jim (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:17:26 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: he/she doesn't care
Message:
PT understands exactly what he/she is doing. And all the attention this troll is getting is absurd. The persona twists Abi's words.
PT, a deep thinker indeed. Meanwhile PT is defending and following Maharaji. A view much more honestly presented is in this post:
Here's more premie wisdom
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:57:34 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Passikng Through
Subject: I think therefore I am an ex-premie
Message:
oh, yawn.

I just tried to explain that when we think we do so within a CONTEXT which includes a multiplicity of other thoughts. Thought doesn't happen in a vacuum. Read James Joyce's Ulysses and then maybe you'll get an idea.

Descartes said 'I think therefore I am' and he certainly didn't think he was a God now did he, given that he was the philosopher of the Englightenment and all..

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:08:18 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Library open
Message:
My copy of Ulysses is 780 pages!
Rene Descartes was famously wrong.
Leaves don't think and they are.
Maybe 'the philospoher of the Enlightenment and all', certainly not 'an enlightened philosopher'!
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:24:21 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: try reading then!
Message:
So, just go and read it again. Do you think Bloom needed to recieve Knowledge?

Yes, RD has been criticised for creating a mind/body split etc etc. But some of that criticism is wrong.

Hiedgger said 'Questioning is the piety of thought'

How do you define thought?

Why are you scared of your mind Passing Through?

Or: what is wrong with your mind?

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:38:50 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Over and out (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:37:37 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I'm too busy reading you!
Message:
How do you define thought?
Ideas.
Why are you scared of your mind Passing Through?
I have already told you I'm not.
Or: what is wrong with your mind?
Working fine, a little forgetful but otherwise a great source of pleasure.
PT
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 07:37:29 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Individualism?
Message:
As a member of a religious cult which discourages thought, questions and criticism, and sees the human mind as some kind of distraction from the soul, you're not really qualified to lecture us on 'individualism'.

You are a cult zombie, incapable of thinking straight.
I can prove it.

What are your masters biggest faults?

(I can hear you squirm from here.)

Anth the brainwashed clone.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:19:25 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Collectivism?
Message:
AJW says: As a member of a religious cult which discourages thought,
I OBJECT: Thoughts are fine in their place.
AJW:questions
PT: answers are better than questions
AJW: and criticism
PT: aren't we criticizing 'questions and criticism'
AJW: and sees the human mind as some kind of distraction from the soul
PT: Hooray AJW, you've got. The mind is 'some kind of distraction from the soul'!
That's why I practice Knowledge.
AJW: you're not really qualified to lecture us on 'individualism'.
PT: In this Forum, I'm a persecuted minority.
AJW: You are a cult zombie, incapable of thinking straight.
I can prove it.
PT: Yes
AJW: What are your masters biggest faults?
PT: That he doesn't pay enough attention to me.
AWL: (I can hear you squirm from here.)
PT: I'm not getting off.
Anth the brainwashed clone.
Passing the phone
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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 06:41:37 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Quck, get me a standing order.
Message:
Passing Through,

Your wisdom speaks for itself. I'm sold on it. You're right, I should never have left the cult.

Rawat, send me a donation form to give to my bank. Passing Through, with his razor intellect and deep spiritual insight, has persuaded me I made a big mistake.

Your reply speaks for itself PT. There's no need to continue this conversation. And to think I mistook you for a cult zombie.

Anth, conceding to the wise one. (It was your honest criticism of Rawat that tipped the balance PT)

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:49:47 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: needs attention from Rawat
Message:
Define soul. Define mind. (Without resorting to your own individual experience)

Explain why mind is a distraction from the soul.

Explain why you are scared of your own mind and why you need more attention from your Master Guru Maharaji aka The Lord of the Universe aka a pilot called Rawat.

And if all this Hindu anti-mind stuff really works how come India is such a mess. How come all the Hindu anti-mind stuff hasn't changed the caste system, the horrific treatment of women and children etc.

Long live the Enlightenment

btw PT that was when religious superstitions were recognised as irrational. It happened several hundred years ago.

Religion is the opium of the people, premies have nothing to lose but their chains and I'm off to bed because I've got a nasty chest infection.

spam away

yawn

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:14:59 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Ah Abi, you are a soul
Message:
Define soul.
The thing inside.
Define mind.
The little voice inside

Explain why mind is a distraction from the soul.
Mind is a little voice that interrupts.
Explain why you are scared of your own mind
I am not
and why you need more attention from your Master Guru Maharaji aka The Lord of the Universe aka a pilot called Rawat.
I don't need it.
But it's always nice.
PT

And if all this Hindu anti-mind stuff really works how come India is such a mess. How come all the Hindu anti-mind stuff hasn't changed the caste system, the horrific treatment of women and children etc.

Long live the Enlightenment

btw PT that was when religious superstitions were recognised as irrational. It happened several hundred years ago.

Religion is the opium of the people, premies have nothing to lose but their chains and I'm off to bed because I've got a nasty chest infection.

spam away

yawn

You asks these questions because you know they cannot be adequately answered.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:31:46 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: now that's what I call a zen answer
Message:
So soul is the thing inside? And mind is that little voice inside. Why is it a little voice? Doesn't the soul have a voice? Do they have a problem with each other? Who told you that? Why is it all inside? What's outside then? Other peoples minds, souls? Or do they just stay inside too? How do we communicate? With what? Is your soul speaking to me or is your mind? But ow can they if they just stay inside? Do they come out to play sometimes?

I asked those other questions hoping that you would offer a half-way intelligent and HONEST answer.

But maybe you can answer some of these new questions in a less Zen manner?

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:49:16 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Briefly to Abi
Message:
So soul is the thing inside? And mind is that little voice inside. Why is it a little voice?
It isn't very loud.
Doesn't the soul have a voice?
I don't think so.
Do they have a problem with each other?
No.
Who told you that?
I made it up.
Why is it all inside?
I don't understand..
What's outside then?
The rest of the universe.
Other peoples minds, souls? Or do they just stay inside too? How do we communicate?
Just like this.
With what?
What ever is available.
Is your soul speaking to me or is your mind?
It's my mind but influenced by my soul.
But ow can they if they just stay inside? Do they come out to play sometimes?
I'm out playing most of the time.
I asked those other questions hoping that you would offer a half-way intelligent and HONEST answer.
I hope your satisfied.
But maybe you can answer some of these new questions in a less Zen manner?
Is the Pope catholic?
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 08:03:33 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Passing Through
Subject: VERY unhealthy in my view
Message:
This supposed seperation of 'soul' and the mind is very unhealthy. We are what we are and if people want to put labels on different feelings and thoughts and subdivide them - it doesn't mean they are real.

We ebb and we flow, just like the tides. Happy and sad, joyful and depressed. The whole symphony of human experience cannot be divided into two groups!

Incidentally, I don't know any premies or ex-premies these days but some of the people I am fortunate enough to know possess immeasurable love and compassion. They are as they are, without teachings and without Hindu soul/mind nonsense. You learned all that from the 'master'.

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Date: Mon, Jul 30, 2001 at 05:36:20 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Dave the Doctor
Message:
Dave says: This supposed seperation of 'soul' and the mind is very unhealthy.
We are what we are and if people want to put labels on different feelings and thoughts and subdivide them - it doesn't mean they are real.
AND then Dave says: We ebb and we flow, just like the tides. Happy and sad, joyful and depressed. The whole symphony of human experience cannot be divided into two groups!
PT says: Dave has just divided experience into ebb and flow, happy and sad, joyful and depressed.
Please make up your mind.
PT
Incidentally, I don't know any premies or ex-premies these days but some of the people I am fortunate enough to know possess immeasurable love and compassion. They are as they are, without teachings and without Hindu soul/mind nonsense. You learned all that from the 'master'.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 10:09:33 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Hey PT
Message:
I started a 'Golden opportunity' thread over on LG.

Any contribution from you?

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 06:52:57 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Passing Through
Subject: Re: Honesty test
Message:
Hardly. I never really fitted in to being a premie because I was too individualistic to fit into the group. Ask any of my old ashram premie buddies, wherever they are.

I'm off to the beach now so you can spam all you like till I get back.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:20:23 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Go for it Dave (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:23:25 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Passing Through
Subject: The beach
Message:
Going off to the beach for me & Co requires over a seventy mile drive and the ascent and descent of the biggest sand dune in the world. The sea was lovely and actually felt warm and I didn't want to get out of it.
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Date: Sun, Jul 29, 2001 at 00:26:49 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Hang 10 Dave (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:17:13 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Honesty test - I disagree too
Message:
Deceitful and cowardly anonymity is the refuge of the irresponsible.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:22:41 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Thank you PatC
Message:
Non sequitor
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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:00:40 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Alright! My proposed nominee has accepted!
Message:
Just got email back from Dr. Barry Beyerstein, a psychologist at Simon Fraser University in Vancouver. Dr. Beyerstein, who is, among other things, a director of CSICOP (The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims Of the Paranormal) and a really nice guy to boot has agreed to participate on the panel I've proposed.

Dr. Beyerstein, if any of you recall, is also head of the BC Skeptics Society and was, by coincidence, the guy the French government emissary consulted with regarding cults and the law. I posted a his own proposed cult checklist a few months ago and now remember that JM actually put it up permanently on EPO. I put the URL in the link slot on this post. Haven't tried this before so, just in case, here's the address of the page itself:

http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/cultchecklst.htm

Barry's brother, Dale, interestingly enough, is the author of a book exposing Sai Baba which you can find online here and there.

I retained Barry recently as an expert in a case I did and found him really wonderful to work with. He's sharp and sincere and extremely generous with his time. I explained that the ex's could pay up to $10,000 U.S. for his service (less my commission) and he didn't quibble with the money. What a guy, huh?

No, seriously, he's more than willing to participate freely as a public service. I called him after I got his email and talked about the process a bit. He likes my idea of letting the panel control their own process. He explained, in fact, that that's like the model that James Randi's offered for his own million dollar challenge for proof of the paranormal. Challengers and Randi agree to appoint a mutual acceptable third party who then determines the actual process for testing those claims. What could be fairer than that?

Anyway, I can't imagine how we'd every find a better candidate than Barry. Mind you, he's just my nominee. Perhaps someone has someone else in mind. It'd be good, though, if you guys do agree that he'd be suitable, if you could say so early so that we can then throw the ball into the premies' court and see who, if anyone, wants to play.
[ Barry Beyerstein's cult checklist ]

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:56:06 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: On second thought Jim, how about...
Message:
how about if there are no premie reps that step forward, we e-mail well known high profile premies to volunteer?

People like Charles Cameron, Joan Apter, Mitch Ditkoff, John Miller, John Hampton, David Smith, Tim Gallwey (my personal choice), the psychologist (Alvaro?), Glen Whittaker etc.....

Do you think even one would respond?

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:50:38 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Great, but what premie will volunteer
Message:
to contact a premie/m/k representative?

Any rank and file/lifer will pass, as will EV...

Are there any 'maverick premies' who would be willing find someone for the panel to represent their side?

Also, it could be started on-line, even with no premie rep., with questions submitted to the exes rep, awaiting the 'word of the master' in response...

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:01:25 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: On third thought, Jim...
Message:
Maybe the best premies to either pick a rep or BE the rep would be...

1-Pia

2-Glen Whittaker

3-Kathie Thomas

4-Charles Glasser (if we can pry him away from his fencing matches)

5-Chuck Nathan (amtext)

6-Michael Nouri (he says he's been listening to m for a long time, on of the satellite broadcasts)

7-I still like Tim Gallwey

8-Charnanand

9-Sampuranand

10-Sat Pal

11-Prem Pal himself....

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 19:11:41 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: A fourth and last thought, Jim
Message:
OK-

I just had an idea.

Let's do it the way that m wants-no lone rangers, we go by the book.

We sincerely write to Elan Vital, because they are the group with no membership that gets together every once in awhile to invite maharaji to come somewhere in the world to spread his message.

We ask EV to pick a representative for the debate.
We offer to co-sponsor the program with them.
The ensuing dialog could-

1-allow exes to ask ALL the questions and express ALL the feelings that they have ever wanted to.

2-allow M to once and for all really lay out his message, and explain how all of these things that he says really make sense.

Premies and exes alike could get something out of it.
A lot of clarity might come of this.
It might help people resolve some of these issues in their lives.
Ground rules would be established to insure that it would be civil, fair and impartial.
It would be videotaped.
It certainly would be interesting...

If M/EV don't respond (highy likely) to such a fair and sincere proposal, it would speak volumes...

Comments?

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:25:06 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: These are all pretty interesting
Message:
These are all good ideas, LAX. First, regarding what to do if the premies don't come up with a panelist, I like your idea of inviting Pia or Charles, or the Cainer-less crew at ELK or the faceless folk at EV to participate. Maybe, we can put a web page together for EPO with a reference on the opening page, displaying the invitation and explaining the challenge. You're absolutely right that this is nothing but a natural reply to Pia and the like. It's a fair and reasoned reply, they should appreciate that. It's entirely possible that the panel won't, as a whole, see things our way. That's a risk we take and one reflective of the fairness of the process. This truly is the chance for all of us to put up or shut up, as it were.

Your other idea, of an invitation to Maharaji himself to join in some similar process is cool too. Now this is a much more complex proposal. Barry Beyerstein agreed to do something that, as I've always thought of it, could be done from the comfort of his own office. But a live panel somewhere? Shit, if we got the money together, paid expenses, I bet Barry or someone else we all thought good enough would be game. You and I both know that, if past performance is any indicator of the future, the chances of Maharaji agreeing are negligible. But, again, we could publicize the invitation permanently on the front of EPO. It would make an obvious point in spades.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 21:49:01 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What I just told the premie dave on LG
Message:
Dave wrote:

[Let's have a panel] It can be like one of those consel things the Pope calls; lets see,'for discussion, How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?' Or maybe we can skip that and go right to writing the scriptures. The gospel according to Jim,or Tom, Dick and Harriet. Sorry but God, what a dumb waster of time.

I replied:

Dave,

Would you tell EV that their attempt to deal with this in their Frequently Asked Questions was a 'dumb waster of time'? I mean, what's the difference? They thought it was worthwhile to put together a cult checklist and to evaluate EV in light of it. Do you think, for a nanosecond, that they did that without Maharaji's okay if not command? Come on, Dave, you know better than that. So Maharaji's already signed off on this kind of analysis.

So what do you do? Say that EV already examined itself and has determined that, thankfully, it's not a cult after all? That's kind of funny, don't you think? I mean, like truly, really, honest-to-God funny? Saturday Night Live kind of funny? No, that won't do. It'd be like asking a company accused of shady business practises to audit itself. Like the IRS calling you at home and asking you to please take some time and consider whether or not you've been cheating on your taxes. If you find that you have been, please let us know..

This proposal is simple, manageable and eminently fair. Furthermore, as La-ex so correctly pointed out on F6, it's a natural and appropriate response to Pia's or Glasser's sites which, after all, issue their own challenges (without giving exes the benefit of any way of responding to them!).

Any premie who says that this effort to examine the issue of Maharaji's alleged cult leadership is nothing but a 'dumb waster of time' better first ask themself how that jives with all the above-mentioned efforts.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:41:15 (EDT)
From: PatC b)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: See, it pays to be lovable like you
Message:
Absolutely fabulous, Jim.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:32:15 (EDT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My Nominations
Message:
Fila-mints and Ex-Lax, in association with Bill Graham and Sound & Fury Signifying Diddly Productions present:

Our Possible Debaters (aka the Master debators)...

Stephen Hawking for the premies and the Amazing Randi for the exes.
or
Anita Bryant for the exes and Pat Boone for the premies. (Even-handed, huh?)
or
Walter Mondale for the premies and Harold Stassen for the exes.
or
Buddha for the premies in Canadian Doubles against Judas and Antonio Salieri for the exes.
(appears a wee bit unbalanced?) I see your point. Okay.
Shoeless Joe Jackson for the premies and Pete Rose for the exes.
or
William Burroughs for the exes and Alan Ginsburg for the premies.
or
Claudia Schiffer for the exes and Letitia Casta for the premies.
(Wake me up for this one.)
or
Perry Como for the premies and Merv Griffin for the exes.
or
Werner Heisenberg for the exes and Rabindranath Tagore for the premies.
or
John Miller for the premies and Michael Dettmers for the exes. Mmmm. Hotcha!
or
Jimmy Caan for the exes and James Gandolfini for the premies.
or
Catherine Zeta-Jones for the premies and Steve Guttenberg for the exes.

At this point, I feel I'm losing my fairness and objectivity. Call me if a serious cat fight breaks out.

It's the weekend, enjoy yourselves!

Danny

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 05:20:09 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: Re: My Nominations
Message:
i think i'd definitely be there for these two:
William Burroughs for the exes and Alan Ginsburg for the premies.
or

Werner Heisenberg for the exes and Rabindranath Tagore for the premies.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:37:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My update on LG
Message:
Over on F6 you can see my post wherein I proposed a psychology professor, Dr. Barry Beyerstein, as the ex nominee for the panel I've been talking about. I've asked the other exes to consider his nomination and, quite frankly, I think they'll find him agreeable. If they don't, though, we'll just carry on and find someone else. The ball will then be in the premies' court. Unless you want to simply avoid the challenge altogether, you'll have to come up with your own person -- anyone you like so long as he's never been affiliated with Maharaji -- as your own nominee. That person and Dr. Beyerstein (or whoever the exes choose) will then choose a third panelist between them.

Look, guys, this is a completely fair and legitimate challenge. No one's asking you to let someone else judge your 'experience' or anything of the sort. I mean, that'd be impossible in any event, wouldn't it? No, this is much more straightforward and manageable than that. The purpose of this exercise is to get some sort of fair, arms-length determination as to whether reasonably informed outsiders, judging him on the evidence available, would say that Maharaji is a cult leader.

Why did I resort to this? Well, for years now I've seen premies and exes argue about matters that just left me scratching my head. To me, it was so damned obvious that certain words had inescapable implications as did certain actions and events. However, the premies, in my opinion, refused to concede those points. Exes would argue that 'any reasonably informed outsider would see ....' this or that but the premies would disagree. What to do in that situation? To me, this is the answer. Let's go to that 'reasonably informed outsider'. In fact, let's go to three of them. Let's all put our money where our mouths are. Honestly, if you have any interest in standing by your words on these issues you should, like I've said, welcome the opportunity to resolve at least that one issue of how would the world see Maharaji if it bothered to look.

Naturally, if you don't participate it only proves that you don't actually believe what you've been saying about the fair meaning of so much that we've debated. Again, this isn't the time or place to argue about the merits of meditation, darshan or the wonderful feeling you get when you see His Shining Face. It's about the other stuff. And don't give me this shit about how that other stuff isn't debatable because you've been debating it one way or the other all along now. Even CD can't resist trying to argue the odd point now and then. Okay, this is everyone's opportunity to pony up.

Come on, guys, don't be chicken. This'll be fun, huh? Don't you want to know that it isn't jsut premies who interpret Maharaji's words the way you all do? Wouldn't that give you some comfort to know that the world at large, if properly informed, also sees things your way? Well, that could happen. Oh yes it could. But you have to play if you want to win. Don't be scared. Jump in.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:32:09 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yup. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:29:35 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Alright! My proposed nominee has accepted!
Message:
Sure. I had the feeling this was the guy you were trying to contact.
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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:35:16 (EDT)
From: me again
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Sure! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:14:01 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: BB is ok by me (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:11:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your votes please? (Exes only) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:54:52 (EDT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sounds Good.OK. (nt)
Message:
fg
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:26:33 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: no problem [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 07:13:32 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes.
Message:
Sounds good to me.
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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 23:27:55 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sure: Sounds great. NT
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 01:05:55 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Yes [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 21:48:45 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: go for it
Message:
I hope it works out for you. He sounds like a very good person for the job.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 01:11:45 (EDT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: He sounds perfect, Jim,
Message:
Let the games begin!
This ought to be even better than Rennie Davis and Ken Kelly (?) debating during Millenium '73!
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 14:56:28 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Re: He sounds perfect, Jim,
Message:
I dont know, Rennie made such a great ZEALOT.
sO HONesT aBOUt HiS tHiNkINg AND cuLT pROGrAMmINg

Jim, I Have to read more to understand what all your posts are saying, but I agree with you proposal.
Glad to see you on a mission.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:31:23 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: yes. nt,
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 11:30:52 (EDT)
From: gerry the contrarian
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: NO (NT)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:46:33 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry the contrarian
Subject: ok,other nominations, folks? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 15:49:26 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Exactly. If not Beyerstein, who?
Message:
I know Gerry's just kidding but, then again, maybe he's not. If anyone doesn't think Beyerstein's good enough, for whatever reason, please explain why and please suggest who you've got as an alternative.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 18:38:47 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: If Beyerstein is up for it then he's the man
Message:
It's a thankless task after all . Who gives a fuck in the big wide world about this shit ? So ANYONE at all from the BWW willing to open up their heart to the Universe of Love has got to be given the green go go go.

Let's see the Rawatist nominee , whoever that may be is fine by me.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 18:56:19 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Dalai lama's Advice
Message:
THE DALAI LAMA’S 1994

PROCLAMATION ON
SPIRITUAL TEACHERS WHO ABUSE THEIR POWER

The following quotes are from the article 'Toward A New Spiritual Ethic,' by Kate Wheeler;
March/April 1994 edition of Nexus.

The Dalai Lama’s own words are in bold.

'At a symposium with 22 Western Buddhist teachers, the Dalai Lama had strong words for teachers who abuse their power—and students who give theirs away.'

'A teacher who behaves unethically or asks students to do so can be judged as lacking in ultimate insight, His Holiness said.

‘As far as my own understanding goes, the two claims—that you are not subject to precepts and you are free—these are the result of incorrect understanding.’

No behavior is free from consequences. For this reason, true wisdom always includes compassion, the understanding that all things and beings are interconnected with (and vulnerable to) each other.'

'’Even though one’s realization may be higher than the high beings,’ His Holiness
said, ‘one’s behavior should conform to the human way of life.’'

When teachers break the precepts, behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others, students must face the situation, even though this can be challenging.

‘Criticize openly,’ His Holiness declared.

‘That’s the only way.’

If there is incontrovertible evidence of wrongdoing, teachers should be confronted with it. They should be allowed to admit their wrongs, make amends, and undergo a rehabilitation process.

If a teacher won’t respond, students should publish the situation in a newspaper, not omitting
the teacher’s name,
His Holiness said. The fact that the teacher may have done many other good things should not keep us silent.'

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 21:48:21 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: like perjury,pimping,aiding hitmen's flight [nt]
Message:
THE DALAI LAMA’S 1994

PROCLAMATION ON
SPIRITUAL TEACHERS WHO ABUSE THEIR POWER

The following quotes are from the article 'Toward A New Spiritual Ethic,' by Kate Wheeler;
March/April 1994 edition of Nexus.

The Dalai Lama’s own words are in bold.

'At a symposium with 22 Western Buddhist teachers, the Dalai Lama had strong words for teachers who abuse their power—and students who give theirs away.'

'A teacher who behaves unethically or asks students to do so can be judged as lacking in ultimate insight, His Holiness said.

‘As far as my own understanding goes, the two claims—that you are not subject to precepts and you are free—these are the result of incorrect understanding.’

No behavior is free from consequences. For this reason, true wisdom always includes compassion, the understanding that all things and beings are interconnected with (and vulnerable to) each other.'

'’Even though one’s realization may be higher than the high beings,’ His Holiness
said, ‘one’s behavior should conform to the human way of life.’'

When teachers break the precepts, behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others, students must face the situation, even though this can be challenging.

‘Criticize openly,’ His Holiness declared.

‘That’s the only way.’

If there is incontrovertible evidence of wrongdoing, teachers should be confronted with it. They should be allowed to admit their wrongs, make amends, and undergo a rehabilitation process.

If a teacher won’t respond, students should publish the situation in a newspaper, not omitting
the teacher’s name,
His Holiness said. The fact that the teacher may have done many other good things should not keep us silent.'


---

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 18:32:50 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Can we have ID's?
Message:
I agree with Selene and Francesca (see thread below) regarding the increasingly riotous trolls running amuck.

In my opinion, the open-door policy of posting has got to be stopped. There are too much bullshit to weed through. And we have posters like ABi who don't need to be abused by some insensitive premies.

Now, I know there aren't a lot of asshole premies, and I do know that some premies have many assholes.

But this is the type of behaviour that gets mimicked. And it is a waste of time. Some of these buggers have been here for years.

When is enough, enough?

How can we have a professional debate when you-know-whos gets freaked out and disassociates into a thousand personalities, each one sicker than the one before?

If everyone has only one ID, then s/he can only be one person and will have to stand up like a wo/man and be responsible for their own words like the rest of us.

Moral: Don't let the nuts run the asylum

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 19:50:28 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Can we have ID's??????
Message:
Hi Deb
Salam and I discussed this briefly on AG.
I agree individual accounts make sense. But then we need the right software and a systems admin.
lots of work goes into password protected accounts, for them to be done right. I have done this but only on systems I have control over.

Also, having one password for every one is foolish and a waste of time IMO.

To find a canned software, like HotBoards, that also has good user account management features is quite difficult. And I don't think there is a queue for anyone wanting to be forum programmer.
Maybe there is a people solution? If enough of us are sick of a certain persona, irregardless or what browser or name he/she picks for the hour, we can protest and be heard doncha think?
I know this isn't perfect but throwing technology at it is very do able but takes work and dedication.

I know who'd go first if I had any say. shall ve vote ja?

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:36:23 (EDT)
From: Forum God +)
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Selene
Subject: No
Message:
I did try experimenting with Hotboards' built in individual password protection and signup facility when I first set up this forum but it's seemed too unreliable to be useful. Also, if someone wants to, they can easily get another Hotmail or Yahoo address and signup again once they'd been banned.

If people want a closed foum, they should set one up themselves although I realise there is already one of these with the recent exes forum. I'm only into blocking people who have nothing to contribute but nonsense and I've only blocked two people since this place started. One was McGruff who is in California and the other was Juicy in California too. They could be the same person using two ISPs.

Snake/Mala is in Australia and so I gave him another chance since it's not his fault his ancestors were convicts. Vice Versa is in Canada and probably bored. I meant to check Passing Through and will do so before going to bed tonight. Although I don't regard him as a nonsense spammer like McGruff & Co.

I'll never reveal IPs but I will reveal approximate geographical location of certain people who have committed the sin of spam and also connect the various handles if they're the same person and annoying some people. I won't block anyone for their honest views, even if they are completely different to other people's, otherwise this place becomes too cliquey.

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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 20:58:37 (EDT)
From: Forum God +)
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Forum God +)
Subject: Passing Through is
Message:
'Passing Through' is also 'snake' and 'Mala' and resides in Australia.
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 09:13:05 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Forum God +)
Subject: not another Aussi bloke!
Message:
aaarrrrgghhhhhh.......
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:48:10 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Forum God +)
Subject: Passing Through is not
Message:
No I'm not.
PT
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Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2001 at 22:17:24 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Forum God +)
Subject: If 'Mala' is also 'Passing through'..
Message:
In a post down below 'Mala' calls himself a new premie. I'm pretty certain (but at this point don't quote me on it..I'm not 100% certain)that PT called himself an old timer when he first came here. At any rate the ' lingo ' and his historical knowledge of the whole trip points to that being the case.

It seems he's not only learning how to get in touch with the source of the universe via his gracious master but also learning how to lie and decieve. A fine student !!!

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 12:50:24 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: like,'No cheat, no deceit' right!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 04:14:20 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Passing a nasty turd
Message:
I guess some people can still sleep at night knowing that they are despised. Am I imaginging it or do the premie trolls seem to be trying to mask the pain of their masochistic martyrdom by being anonymous?
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:58:13 (EDT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Not a blade of grass
Message:
stirred,nor a dog stirred.I could'nt resist that one Pat.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 08:26:51 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: My answer to PatC
Message:
No PatC.
I don't know who you are and I'd rather not.
By keeping my identity secret I avoid the possibility of you and some of the others who post on this Forum contacting me.
PT
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Date: Sat, Jul 28, 2001 at 03:51:33 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To:

Subject: Dermot Munmot
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 09:24:56 (BST)
From: Mr D
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Mr D
Subject: Or do they?
Message:
I dunno.



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