Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Aug 07, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


gerry -:- More Magical Thinking -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 12:49:16 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- tanks, goobie boy -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:31:56 (EDT)

salam -:- no comments -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 10:35:20 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- a nice picture, -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 16:37:27 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Re: no comments -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 11:39:31 (EDT)

cq -:- Shri Hans - a Master? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 09:20:33 (EDT)

Barry -:- Everyone goes limp? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:20:50 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Everyone goes limp? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:29:29 (EDT)
__ __ Barry -:- Re: Everyone gets shit! -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:35:31 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca -:- See my posts and Jim's below -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:27:43 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- Here's a good post ... -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 14:11:53 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Sorry, I completely disagree -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:10:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Well, since you're arguing the other side -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:24:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- But you ARE a bully, Fran! -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:31:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Jim I know....... -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:29:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca ~) -:- My evil eyes burn your computer screen -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:39:49 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- I don't understand what... -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:27:31 (EDT)
__ __ Barry -:- Read your post again (above). -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:18:29 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- I'm getting hard -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 04:00:32 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :P -:- You and Anth and Pat are my faves [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:28:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- This stuff above is just goofy. Who cares!nt -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:31:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :P -:- oh, I forgot salam!!! [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:28:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Barry -:- Thats rich! -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:08:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Rules of engagement -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 04:36:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Re: Rules of engagement -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 13:47:42 (EDT)

Passing Through -:- Apology Corner -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:38:44 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Poor PT...boohoohoo -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:50:12 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Your what? -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:54:55 (EDT)
__ __ Barry -:- Boo! nt -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:24:31 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- Legal advice from Jim -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:17:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- ad hominem from Anonymous Troll ! [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:12:39 (EDT)
__ David -:- I can be kinder than that -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:42:18 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- disturbing the peace -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 06:52:00 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Please do block him-her-it [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:41:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Don't block nobody... -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:27:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- anybody [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:32:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Right.....anybody -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:39:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- One more time? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:41:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good. Whose? [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:51:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Yvonne's mom and Joseph Gerbels!nt -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:00:28 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- Anonimity -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:02:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- COWARD!!! n/t -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:53:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Carlos uses his own name here -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 06:36:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Steve -:- I request that no one responds -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 05:03:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: Anonimity -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:31:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PatC b) -:- Re: AAnother excellent post, Janet - NT -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:16:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Maybe your worried.. -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:30:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- what else do expect -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:32:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- LOLOLOLsssssssss -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:54:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC b) -:- Fran, Salam thanks for LOLs NT -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:19:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca ~) -:- So good to see you Pat -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:33:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Weell -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:05:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- p.s. -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:10:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Don't worry I have frogya -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:42:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- he should change aliases again? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:09:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC b) -:- Why's your arm in a brace? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:24:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene b) -:- cause it hurts -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 12:14:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: cause it hurts -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 14:07:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- I don't compute as much as you -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:52:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- to Francesca and Cynthia -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 18:00:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca ~) -:- you mean the 'Dollar Bill' keyboard? -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 00:12:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Computer things -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 14:09:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Ergonomic devices -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:17:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Ergonomic devices -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 18:36:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Dear Magiclara -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 00:14:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Re: Why's your arm in a brace? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 10:33:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Aint life tough -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:28:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PatC b) -:- Nothing more to say, ham -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:33:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Sure Hamzen! You Mac user (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:36:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ rank frank hamzen -:- Is that it? It doesn't seem right to me -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:50:19 (EDT)

Passing Through -:- JHB's kind offer -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:21:13 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- A Little Help -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 11:35:54 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: JHB's kind offer -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:46:49 (EDT)
__ Marianne -:- Prove otherwise -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:52:01 (EDT)
__ Common Knowledge -:- His MaMa Was Right Bout Him -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:10:20 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- I'm shocked Jim. -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:34:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Listen jerk -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 07:05:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: I'm shocked Jim. -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:13:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Hey Janet, did you notice -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 18:17:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Common Knowledge -:- What did I say PT -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:56:19 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Francesca? -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:30:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Yo friend. Innaccurate! -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:34:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Common Knowledge -:- Re: Yo friend. Innaccurate! -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:09:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Common Knowledge -- one addition -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 00:24:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Re: Yo friend. Innaccurate! -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:56:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Yeah, Kenny Geltman & Tom Quick. -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 11:43:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Re: Yeah, Kenny Geltman & Tom Quick. -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:39:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- It sure sounds like fun, doesn't it? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:56:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DEborah -:- Jim, what's that? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:20:32 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Everyone should read this! [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:28:33 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- What? -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:57:05 (EDT)
__ David -:- That's my site, not EPO -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:37:25 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- This is like EV -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:53:29 (EDT)

Jim -:- Would you guys please give me your opinion on this -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 21:38:22 (EDT)
__ Bryn -:- All or nothing at all -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:29:37 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- CD? What do you think of Bryn's post? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:37:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bryn -:- Hooray for thinking -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:14:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Hooray for thinking -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:32:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Sorry, I'm powerless;) -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 18:48:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bryn -:- Lets differ ! - with a unifying enthusiasm. nt. -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:44:28 (EDT)
__ __ donner -:- Re: All or nothing at all -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:36:36 (EDT)
__ CD -:- Re: f y p -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:13:45 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- What's that mean, Chris? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:18:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ CD -:- Re: What's that mean, Chris? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:49:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do you FEEL like a coward, Chris? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:37:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- No, I am doing just fine -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:49:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's what YOU think -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:02:24 (EDT)
__ sivan -:- bullshit -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:54:35 (EDT)
__ Barry -:- easy money Jim! -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:20:27 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- For the record -- this is NOT Beyerstein -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:28:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Jim! are you a hole lota Heller? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:46:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Jim! are you a hole lota Heller? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 19:26:18 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Francesca? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:49:23 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca -:- They just have to be nice to me -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:59:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, got that ... but, please? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:05:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- In his own mind, probably yes -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:05:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, Fran -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:22:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- That place -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 14:06:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: feelings -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:02:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- But as you know from playing music ... -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:35:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: But as you know from playing music ... -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 17:30:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Deer in the spotlight -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 18:11:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't forget stitch in time saves nine [nt] -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 19:08:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Re: Come on, Fran -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:53:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hm, let's talk about this -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 14:41:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC;) -:- FA, please block Jim -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 21:12:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: you got it! -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:06:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- FUCK OFF YOU WEENIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:11:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Sidebar -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:39:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You've got the same problem CD has -:- Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 14:42:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Haven't got time for the pain -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 01:41:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't you get it? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 02:31:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What is this, profession envy? -:- Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 02:21:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You flatter yourself, missing the point entirely -:- Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 00:55:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Re: Hm, let's talk about this -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:26:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Hm, let's talk about this -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:25:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Re: Hm, let's talk about this -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:50:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, already! I heard you the first time! -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:06:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Re: Hm, let's talk about this -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:50:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Re: Hm, let's talk about this -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:50:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Addendum -- just reread your post -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:08:34 (EDT)
__ Carl -:- CD's tap-dancing & being deliberately thick. [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:18:40 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- CD was right Jim, you've COMPLETELY twist -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:00:21 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Isn't it something? -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:05:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- I worked with people with ld's for six years -:- Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:14:26 (EDT)
__ Dave -:- I'll take the clutches of death -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:19:05 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Dave, perhaps I wasn't clear enough -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:27:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dave -:- Re: Sorry, Dave, perhaps I wasn't clear enough -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:34:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Can we talk about this? -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:53:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dave -:- Yes -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:58:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, Dave [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:03:38 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 12:49:16 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: More Magical Thinking
Message:
I like Coz, (Cosmic Traveler on Lifes (sic) Great) and I'm not trying to make fun of him or denigrate his experience but this post of his is a clear example of magical thinking:

Around 1982, I was houseman 2 doors away from Maharaji, on North Bay Rd. I had gone through a breakup with a girl and was feeling a bit down. I asked Maharaji from within to show me that he loved me. This occured 2 blocks away from where I worked. So as I felt a bit better from the emptying out, I started to walk towards the house I worked at. As I got there and was standing out front, Maharaji came out of his house and slowly walked across the street. It was so incredible. Just 10 minutes before, I had been 'feeling the blues' but with that one gesture, I knew that he had somehow heard me. For the next week, everytime that he came in back of his house in the boat, he would blast the horn to let me know. So I would drop what I was doing and watch the show as he docked the boat.

Well, I have to poke a little fun at this sentence structure:

For the next week, everytime that he came in back of his house in the boat, he would blast the horn to let me know.

I can just see the Filament, little widdle in hand, spewing all over his velvet covered boat seats and blasting the air horn at the moment of truth....(snicker--sorry Coz I couldn't resist.)

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:31:56 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: tanks, goobie boy
Message:
Janice Wilson: Grateful
From Baldwinsville, New York

Thank you, Maharaji
that I could know
for even one day of my life
what an incredible, immaculate gift
this life truly is.
This is the best knowledge to have,
the Knowledge of life .
Essential,straight, true to the core of my being.
I am soo grateful that I don't have to live
without it.
And I highly reccomend it
to anyone sincerely wanting to enjoy and appreciate this life.
The heart will never let one down,
on the contrary, it seems to always help one rise,
arise, to the greatest calling within.
So sweet.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 10:35:20 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: no comments
Message:
X
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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 16:37:27 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: a nice picture,
Message:
that X you posted. When I first saw that I thought it would make a good intro for the nameless one, you know, show he is human for all his hate-site posturing. Guess he thinks of himself as some kind of enigma, yah?
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 11:39:31 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: no comments
Message:
Nice axe. I always liked those flying vee's. I might just whittle one for myself. I like a wider fingerboard these days as I'm regressing in my playing abilities (if that's possible, that is--snicker.)

gerry-proud owner of the world's worst guitar collection and one measley peavey amp with an eight inch speaker.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 09:20:33 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Shri Hans - a Master?
Message:
On M's website, all mention of Shri Hans (his father) is with a capital H and a capital F, viz:

' I know that for many kids a father is very beautiful. My Father was very
special. He was a Master, His majesty magnificent.

He worked hard to give all of us the best care possible, and indeed, we
were all very well taken care of.

To please Him was a delight. To this end, everyone did what they
could.'

This raises an interesting question - who does Maharaji think Shri Hans was? After all, it was Shri Hans who said that when '... a spiritual master is in the human body, he is not human. He is the Word made flesh. ... The Master
incarnates to take human beings away from their sins and show them the way to salvation.'

And he also said 'Only those who obey the commandments of the master are blessed in their lifetime. Only those who so love and obey the master so that they
become one with Him can hope of becoming one with God. For Guru, or the Master is God and if you can realise the Master you have realised
God'.

Is this why Maharaji wants to promote himself as a 'Master'?

'Quite a few people wanted to see me as a figurehead. I didn't want to be one and I am not one. A few others saw me as a leader, and I didn't want to be one and I am not one'. - Maharaji, the 'Master' yet not a figurehead, and not a leader.

And if you prefer to ignore all these contradictions, ... you just might be a premie.

(especially if you're not bothered that the man you called 'Lord of the Universe' for all those years says he never claimed to be God!)

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:20:50 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: acousticoutlaw@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Everyone goes limp?
Message:
First of all i just wanted to thank everyone who took the time to post back to me about the gas on the fire issue. I mean that.
But I have a problem with something. Why is it when someone posts a le-git concern or question, and they finally get a little support or understanding from another (Debora)thank you. Others come along and trip on that person to the point where there changing their tune just to calm down the bullies. Pretty soon by the end of the thread. The one person who gets your stuff, is now saying whatever it takes to the point of complete dismissle of the original back-up posistion? It makes one feel like only the long time posters get the affirmations. Is this all this is....'calm down son. I win because I've been playing this game longer than you!' Fran?
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:29:29 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: Everyone goes limp?
Message:
Hi Barry,

You said, Others come along and trip on that person to the point where there changing their tune just to calm down the bullies.

Francesca has never been a bully to me, as a matter of fact, she has definitely been one of most supportive exes I've had the priveledge of discourse with (cyber-style) on this forum.

I'll go back and re-read the posts. But in all fairness, we have so many posts to read and so much new and old data to process, that grasping all intended purposes in every post is often impossible.

Hey Francesca, what do you think?

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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:35:31 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Everyone gets shit!
Message:
Hi Deb..sorry for all this shit, but I just felt Fran was wearing you down to the point of sizzling out like a spent candle. that bugged me.
Anyway-you know Fran much better than I so...it's cool, whatever!
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:27:43 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: See my posts and Jim's below
Message:
Better off to read mine and Jim's posts below, and thanks for the kind words. I do try, but I'm not always perfect, and I'll be the first to admit it. Not being neurotic here, just truthful.

bests, F

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 14:11:53 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Here's a good post ...
Message:
... on really listening to each other. I've got a lot to learn too -- and can improve the way I 'probe' as Mike Donner puts it. He's responding to Jim in a thread below, but here's the link.

bests, F
[ Donner post ]

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:10:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Sorry, I completely disagree
Message:
All that stuff is new age bullshit. If you're talking to someone principled enough to be honest with you, who cares how you 'probe'? And if you're not, what we're really talking about is no more than how to trick the person into being honest. No thanks.

Here, let me use myself as an example. In a thread below Richard 2 accuses me of lying about when I read peter's 'maharaji is dead' post vis-a-vis when I commented on it. I said that I'd read it a couple of hours before and had forgotten, or never noticed, the more troubling words he'd written. Richard 2 called me a liar, not once, but twice. I tried to explain to him what had happened but, because he's a dumb ass premie and can't think straight, he didn't understand and asked me again. Now, here's the point: Richard 2 was a complete asshole in his post. He's sneeringly assuming that he's caught me in some big lie and is dancing up an down celebrating ... it's just crazy. That was how sensitively he 'probed' me.

But so what? I figured that I had to try at least one more time to set the record straight so I replied again. I said what happened as best I could recall and who gives a flying fuck if Richard asked me politely or not? This way or that? The point was that I knew what he was asking and I was either going to answer it or not. I chose to answer it and so I did.

Now, if I'd been inclined to see all communication as a form of groping for some form of verbal hug, I might have been put off. Clearly, I wasn't about to get any hugs from Richard, sad to say. But, because I'm not so inclined -- that is, because I'm not mired in this new age mudhoney (brief editorializing, rather disrespectufl, father forgive me) -- I stayed focus and tried to communicate. A hug is not communciation. I'm not saying there aren't lots and lots of places for hugs but they're no substitute for clear, honest communication. Not on a discussion board where there are actual issues up for debate.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:24:44 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well, since you're arguing the other side
Message:
Well Jim,

Maybe you've helped Barry see there are many ways to communicate, and many ideas about how it is best and honestly done. And tell him, please, that I'm not a nasty bully, just because I don't agree with him. I don't intentionally play with people where there is an issue worth discussing, although I may throw in a few jokes to lighten things up. :C)

You, for one, should understand a good probe-fest.

bests always, f

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:31:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: But you ARE a bully, Fran!
Message:
No, I agree with all that. I agreed with your earlier post to Barry too but just not Donner's.

Barry, what is this 'bully' shit? It's all argument and persuasion here. You also can't read that much into what gets replied to and what doesn't. I've seen really great posts of one kind or another that often seem neglected. Sometimes they aren't, people jsut read them and don't comment for whatever reason. And even if they are somehow how overlooked, it doesn't really mean anything.

But yes, I think Fran IS a bully, in a way. It's not even the words so much as how she looks at you. It's subtler than tone. Tone I can live with. This is, um, subtle. Really, really subtle.

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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:29:19 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim I know.......
Message:
the bully word was a bit over the top, and I told fran that in a post lower in the thread. I was not whining because I was ignored. I was simply getting pissed because Fran just didn't get what I was saying. That's fine. i can't expect everyone to get whart I'm trying to ask or say, but it seemed Fran didn't want to ask for me to define things-She just sort of took over the thread. and then when Deb got egsactly what I was saying, and at the same time wrote about her new company and how she was sick of being in this thing. Fran pipes up and does this hold it barry stuff etc...and procieds to wear down Deb for complience? Anyhow..it felt like she was pissed off because I was now chasing away a poster she likes. Which i was not doing. Or was that what the plant joke was about? I don't know. Anyhow!
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:39:49 (EDT)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My evil eyes burn your computer screen
Message:
Turn it off, quick, before I melt you with my stare.
'Can you f-e-e-l it?'

Jim, I have come with more power than ever before, and not a dog shits on your lawn without my frogya. I learned the acid stare at the feet of the lotus one, and it is the 5th technique.

bests, F

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:27:31 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Barry
Subject: I don't understand what...
Message:
... you're trying to say here. Did you ever think that what you said offended me deeply and I tried to be as civil as I could? I always try to be civil with people. Deborah agreed with you and I didn't. Support and agreement are two separate things. If you're looking for support on a personal level, I'll give it to you -- you're a friend of Jim's after all -- but I'm not always going to agree with you. I agreed on some of Deborah's points, and somewhat with yours.

Support and agreement are two separate things.

Are insinuating that I'm the cause of all your problems in that thread because I questioned you and got into a discussion with you? Didn't you start the thread by calling it 'gasoline on the fire'?? That seemed to indicate that you were aware that some of us were not going to agree with you.

Or are you saying that people who agreed with you should have posted and backed you up, and all you got was mostly me, who didn't agree with you? For me personally, some of my comments were trying to understand what you were saying, and trying to get you to understand what I was saying.

You will find that you'll hit a nerve with many people on this Forum if you try to tell us we should be doing something other than we're doing, and that you've got a better idea, and maybe we're doing it all wrong.

Anyway, if you've got a problem with me personally, you should e-mail me instead of wasting other people's time. And if you've ever seen your friend Jim cross-examine someone on this Forum that doesn't agree with HIS views, I really don't know what you're on about. You like him, right???

I have no bad feeling towards you, and I think you're also taking the fact that I (and maybe others) didn't agree with your suggestions on that topic way too personally. They're just ideas. I'm not picking on you as a person or something.

So are you using this thread to complain about me, or someone else on here? If other people didn't back you up, maybe it's because you just didn't find a lot of support for that idea with the people who happened to be posting that day, not because anyone's "ganging up" on you.

peace,

Francesca

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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:18:29 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Read your post again (above).
Message:
Fran it just seemed to me that you really didn't get what I was asking, and yes you admitted that. eg: some of my comments were just trying to understand what you were saying) So why didn't you ask me to define what they were? why just post obviouse answers and belittling non-connective opinion. I'm not taking it so personal that I'm flipping out or anything, but when you posted back to Deb, I feel you just wore her down to the point of compliance- I'm sorry I said bully..that was over the top.....but taking it all personal? Just read your post above. That's taking things all personal. Everythings cool. I'm not going to be crapping on you every five minutes or anything. Peace too

Barry

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 04:00:32 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Barry
Subject: I'm getting hard
Message:
I didn't read all of that thread but I think Deborah's reply was good. However, we're not revealing all our cards here. There's more going on than a forum and a couple of websites.

That is why I am doing my special training down at the beach at weekends.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:28:28 (EDT)
From: Francesca :P
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You and Anth and Pat are my faves [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:31:09 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Francesca :P
Subject: This stuff above is just goofy. Who cares!nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:28:58 (EDT)
From: Francesca :P
Email: None
To: Francesca :P
Subject: oh, I forgot salam!!! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:08:23 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Francesca :P
Subject: Thats rich!
Message:
When-ever I post a mistake or somethingn like that, all salam does is post an nt like 'Duh?' or some other jab.
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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 04:36:32 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Rules of engagement
Message:
Hi Barry,

Long time. Last time we conversed I seemed to frighten you so badly I felt I had to compose a long and very English apology! I'm afraid you had taken what I wrote as some kind of a threat, although I was just clowning around. Uh, maybe it's 'cos I live in a pretty tough ghetto.

Whatever, Jim had posted a satirical note about what a bunch of crazy deludes folk here are. Then I satirised his satire by claiming that (on the contrary) Forum posters are a bunch of ruthless rationalists who would rip and shred every cosy belief one has. I urged you to flee while you still had something to believe it ...

I see you foolishly ignored my advice. For that, you must TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF THE TOOTH FAIRY. Just kidding.

Anyway, to help the sincere newbie cope with this place, I've composed a guideline, just the one. Like must simple truths, it is TOO awesome in its simplicity to be fully understood immediately. So I've also composed corollaries and derivatives to spell out the dreadful message in gruesome detail. Enjoy!

The Guideline: What a poster intends their post to mean is NOT the same as each reader will understand.

Corollaries:
1) People post here in English, thinking they all share a common language. This is a mistake. English comes in 57 varieties, none of which have anything in common, except vocabulary, and sometimes not even that. The words all mean different things to different users, especially Australians. And premies.

2) Under no circumstances should you attempt dialogue with any Australian premie. Not without first learning 'strine, premie-speak, and logical contortionism.

3) What you thought you intended to mean by your words will NEVER be the same as what your readers will conclude that you were getting at. How could it be? At least one reader just knows you've just made some gross and snide insult based on information you have got by luring from to a honeypot website and then placing spyware on their 'puter. That person will never trust you again, especially when they discover your fiendish abilities enable you completely to cover your tracks.

4) A dynamic expose of the contradictions and absurdities that riddle another poster's position will appall and offend. People don't do logic. Why should they, it makes their heads hurt.

5) It's a nasty, abusive and bullying thing to do, making a person's head hurt. See (4) above.

6) Some of the smartest people here make the least effort to communicate. Given 1 thru 5 above, you can see that makes sense.

7) Salam? See (6) above.

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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 13:47:42 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Rules of engagement
Message:
Thanks John. I will put your guide book in a special place!Kidding!
Thanks for the note.

Barry

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:38:44 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Apology Corner
Message:
Dear Forum,
Could we set up an 'Apology Corner' for people to retract things that are provably wrong.
In just one thread 'Bobo's Claim', Cynthia accuses me for bringing up Milosevic in the Forum and says I'm a heartless son of a bitch for doing so.
In fact it was Bobo who introduced Milosevic.
And JohnT says that I claimed to be a new premie and had just found this site.
I have never done either.
Two gross errors in just one thread.
If I wasn't here to defend myself, this Forum would never know the truth and my reputation seriously damaged.
Gee, that sounds familiar.
PT
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:50:12 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Poor PT...boohoohoo
Message:
I'm in a corner right now, typing this with a Krishna crown on...

Good enough? Btw, who the hell are you?

Now fuck off!

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:54:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Your what?
Message:
Your reputation? As what? A ghost?
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:24:31 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Boo! nt
Message:
dddd
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:17:30 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Legal advice from Jim
Message:
I thought non sentient being could have a reputation.
Please advise.
PT
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:12:39 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: ad hominem from Anonymous Troll ! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:42:18 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Passing Through
Subject: I can be kinder than that
Message:
Your reputation? You're a nobody, 'Passing Through' and by that I mean that you're a no name faceless person.

Wouldn't it be kinder if I just blocked you?

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 06:52:00 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: David
Subject: disturbing the peace
Message:
This person is annoying and follows the pattern of people disturbing our EXES forums, wouldn't you say? I think discussion is fine, but only when people want to be fair: If a person is going to come to fight what we say violating our freedom of speech why have them around? Beside, as you say, what is posted about LARD is true.

In my opinion this premies are plants who want to slow down OUR discussions picking fights with ex-premies. IMHO, we ex-premies have suffered enough abuse to have to be abused in a daily basis here also. I find that very unfair. Except that I may be misunderstanding the finction of our forum...

His/her tone sickens me. So familiar, so maharashi, so full of bullshit.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:41:13 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Please do block him-her-it [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:27:20 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Don't block nobody...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:32:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: anybody [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:39:20 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Right.....anybody
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:41:21 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: One more time?
Message:
Hey we are coming out sept 8 for a wedding! Jamage?
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:51:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Good. Whose? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:00:28 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yvonne's mom and Joseph Gerbels!nt
Message:
ooooooooooh
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:02:26 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Anonimity
Message:
Yes, that's right David.
Cynthia gets it wrong and abuses me.
JohnT gets it wrong and calls me a liar.
And Sylvia wants to get the government to investigate me.
And you're response is to threaten to ban me!
I think there's something wrong here.
As for anonimity, I'd love to post under my own name but the personal attacks that greet anyone who dares interrupt the flow of lies and distortions is too much for me.
I don't want the polce knocking at my door at 3am because some vengeful, frustrated ex has made an anonymous complaint to the drug squad.
PT
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:53:24 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: COWARD!!! n/t
Message:
Boohoohoo
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 06:36:53 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Passing Through
Subject: Carlos uses his own name here
Message:
and nobody has attacked, threatened or hassled him in any way. My dear chap, my home phone number is on the Worldwide Linkup site and nobody has hassled me. I did get a wrong number once though.

Just paranoia, that's all it is. You've nothing to fear here.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 05:03:56 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: I request that no one responds
Message:
to this PT non person any longer . Then he may go away instead of monopolising the ex forum for his premie cult propoganda.

PT if you came here for a sincere exchange of views I wouldn't say this but as you are such a complete braindead cult ashole , I will say it .

Go fuck yourself.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:31:57 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Re: Anonimity
Message:
Yes, that's right David.
Cynthia gets it wrong and abuses me.
JohnT gets it wrong and calls me a liar.
And Sylvia wants to get the government to investigate me.
And you're response is to threaten to ban me!
I think there's something wrong here.
As for anonimity, I'd love to post under my own name but the personal attacks that greet anyone who dares interrupt the flow of lies and distortions is too much for me.
I don't want the polce knocking at my door at 3am because some vengeful, frustrated ex has made an anonymous complaint to the drug squad.
PT


---

interesting. you have just revealed the pervasive depth of the paranoia i remember well from my days as an unexited premie. interesting how it still goes on.
i remember well how afraid i was when i first began to explore myself here. i remember the magical, fearful beliefs i had that i was being watched, that maharaji 'knew' everything i was doing, that i would be singled out by agents of elan vital foracts of retribution. the conditioning does indeed worm its way deep into our psyche's.

consider instead the reality. has anyone here been assaulted? have they come knocking on the door in the middle of the night? so far, all the tactics have been directed at ex's who put up websites, and the tactics came in the form of lawyer's complaints to the ISP or the host of the webpage. and then nothing further. eDrek won his reasonable right to put his back up because nothing further followed the first threat. It was a paper tiger.

Abi's parents are getting harassed by EV/MJ lawyers. Perhaps that's the stripe of midnight calling you dread. The KGB of your own organization. Pretty horrible association to claim membership in. Personally, that's why i finally left. I respect myself too much to stay in alignment with any collection of human beings that obnoxious. I don't need them.

If you actually fear the consequences of revealing who you really are, I suggest you ponder from which direction you actually fear the unwelcome intrusion upon your life to come from.

Myself, since i chose my direction, I haven't had the slightest desire to go to the homes or workplaces of any premies i used to know, and to disturb them. Unlike my 'prachar/propagation days of old, I don't feel that need of the newly converted to go out and exhort the rest of the world to believe like I'm trying to. I don't need the rest of the world to believe like me. I'm happy just believing it for myself.

But I thought you might like to know --your fear is a classic cult symptom. We all had it. If you exit, it does leave you. It's part of the programming that reinforces your staying in.

As a matter of fact, we have had ex's come here absolutely sure that exactly the kind of scenario has been sent to 'get them' by Mj as you say you are afraid of, and we worked for days trying to disabuse the person of his notions. He was clearly delusional, mentally ill, and wedded to the belief in the face of rational, reasonable, more plausible views.

terrible thing, that paranoia. afraid to be yourself. afraid to speak your own name. what a pity.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:16:22 (EDT)
From: PatC b)
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: AAnother excellent post, Janet - NT
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:30:20 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Maybe your worried..
Message:
..that M will put an ear hammer in your head for talking to the ex's thus far. Maybe you just want out?
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:32:06 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: what else do expect
Message:
exes are a bunch of hatefull lies spreading people that can't stand anyone telling them what the truth i because when they do tell the exes they block the truth speakers. Exes just can't handle stuff like that. Charlie Glas-Snot has proved it, so you are fighting a losing battle.

I think you better off on LG. There you don't get hassled and everything is honckey doory. There is even a guru that will save you from the cluches of death man.

Really, you should consider it. It a precarious position that you're in.

and by the way, I think you alias is not reflecting your true self. you can only pass through for that long then you become a pesant.

Are you a boohead?

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:54:26 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: LOLOLOLsssssssss
Message:
I am sitting here laughing until I'm tearing up and trying not to wake up my husband! I think Passing Through got stuck on a freeway onramp.

boohead? That was brilliant! Jim's been calling the anons 'ghosts.' Maybe he is Casper Whine-berger, also known as the 'Wailing Whinge.'

I finally got my computer back. Let's hope I don't crash it.

bests, f

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:19:55 (EDT)
From: PatC b)
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Fran, Salam thanks for LOLs NT
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:33:36 (EDT)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: PatC b)
Subject: So good to see you Pat
Message:
Pat, my post disappeared -- hmm. Well I was saying that I thought you abandoned this accursed place. Make it yours by adding something to the pot, but no rotting vegetables please, especially not by the ton.

They are an illusion created by the Maha and they will melt in the mist of their own accord.

LOVE,
Francesca

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:05:58 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Weell
Message:
What else to say. The fellow's been hanging about for a while. He appears to be a prolific poster, comment each time someone farts, so he is starting to get something in return.

The general advice will be to change aliases and to take his head out of his butt and start talking like a normal person.

But then we all have choices to make, though I don't think that Sir Dave should block him. I found people like that make the gray matter[or what's left of it] in my head tingle.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:10:50 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: p.s.
Message:
hey I hope that your computer is not crashing because of some agya from rawat, dah? you know, everytime you try to correct my spelling agya kicks in and the machine stops.

Salam being overly paranoid.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:42:44 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Don't worry I have frogya
Message:
And when I get frogya I croak, but am saved from the clutches of death.

:P Francesca

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:09:13 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: he should change aliases again?
Message:
too funny.
I have stolen your boofhead word and used it. But boohead is sooooo cute. Am laughing too. With my one hand. Other one is in a big old brace so don't no one get any ideas.
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:24:35 (EDT)
From: PatC b)
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Why's your arm in a brace?
Message:
You said you were laughing with one hand. Is that harder than clapping with one hand? I thought perhaps you were going to say that your other hand was playing with your joystick.
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 12:14:38 (EDT)
From: Selene b)
Email: None
To: PatC b)
Subject: cause it hurts
Message:
I have relinquished claim on b)
As I said below, I still have the experience within inside of b)

I have carpal tunnel or something.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 14:07:00 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Selene b)
Subject: Re: cause it hurts
Message:
Hi Selene!

I haven't talked to you in quite a while. 'Cause it hurts' made me laugh a lot, (not at your pain) but you said it so funny.

Carpal tunnel? It's not related to darshan tunnels, is it?

Having a few laughs this afternoon,
Love and comfort to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:52:41 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Selene b)
Subject: I don't compute as much as you
Message:
But a Microsoft Natural keyboard (yes, I hated it at first) and a Logitech TrackMan Marble with the scrolly wheel (yes, I almost threw it out the window at first) really worked WONDERS. A programmer and a friend told me about it, and that's what made me put up with the changes. The keyboard was easier to get used to. All the techs who work on my computer bitch about the trackball, but it saved my arms, wrists, etc.

bests, F

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 18:00:19 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: to Francesca and Cynthia
Message:
before it went inactive I wanted to thank you for your advice regarding the BillSucks keyboard.
My co-worker swears by it also. My manager is getting me one next week.
Thanks and also to Cynthia, glad I could make you laugh. we all need to lighten up at times and I appreaciate the posts from you both right now as things are strange.
Love to you both.
Selene
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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 00:12:31 (EDT)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: you mean the 'Dollar Bill' keyboard?
Message:
Yeah, try your manager's. The first time I thought about buying one, I tried it and said 'no thanks.' But my neighbor got one and swore by it, and so did a friend. We've gone through two at home over the past 5 years and I bought one for work two years ago.

But 'Bill' does suck!!! Too bad I can't use him to vacuum my floor! I like the laffs too. Things get w-a-a-y too serious around here but sometimes I contribute to it.

love, Francesca who promises not to wear her black dress

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 14:09:55 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Computer things
Message:
Hello
I am starting to have problems with my arm since I started this palaver. Could someone tell me what a trackball and natural keyboard is please? Can they be obtained in the UK? I can't work out in my mind how they could help.
Thanks Magiclara
Thanks
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:17:42 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Ergonomic devices
Message:
A natural keyboard is where the keyboard is split in half (but still all on one keyboard) and angled for a natural positioning of the hands. All you have to do is check out Microsoft's website and Logitech's website. There are cheaper knockoffs of the natural keyboards but my last one only cost $30.

Ergonomic devices are made to conform the tool to the body and its most natural movements, rather than make our body comply to the tool.

Here's Logitech. Click on the various mice.
http://www.logitech.com/

By the way, if you first start using a computer a lot, you'll end up with problems that will go away if you back off a bit. If you're having pain, one thing I do is to pay attention to the pain and see what OTHER activites I do besides computing bring it on. Some of my problem was the way I sleep (trying to curl my hands in fetal position). That is hard on the wrists and I had to sleep with wrist braces to change the habit. Lately I haven't had to use them.

So the computing wasn't the total problem -- it was just the straw that broke the camel's back.

bests, Francesca
[ Microsoft Keyboards ]

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 18:36:44 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: Ergonomic devices
Message:
Thanks Francesa
I will look into that I do that with my hands when trying to sleep as well. Weird.
Best wishes
Magiclara
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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 00:14:40 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Dear Magiclara
Message:
We learned it in the womb! It beats wearing those things at the keyboard at work. I found that sleeping with them on whenever my wrists hurt was a big help.

bests, F

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 10:33:58 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: PatC b)
Subject: Re: Why's your arm in a brace?
Message:
because she uses the brace to type with, well that's what she told me.
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:28:56 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Aint life tough
Message:
Why worry about the personal attacks, remember the parable about the light and darkness, and if k saves you from death, well remember krishna arjuna and the rest, it's your chance to show the world all the love in your heart and the strength of your convictions, what a service for the non-lord

As for the lies and distortions, I assume then that you have sent an e-mail to the non lord of the universe who states he never said he was such a thing, when everybody in the known universe knows he's a blatant liar, I think not. Another premie guru brownnoser.

And while on this topic, here we are on a public forum, and you are able to give vent to your disgruntlement, to the general public. Could you give me the site address of either an ev or official bigboy where I can give vent to any number of calumnies that have been heaped upon me by mr squeeky clean I never knew one of my mahatmas was a paedophile and I'm doing everything in my power to put it right but ev is an independent organization and it was the mahatmas who said I was lord of the universe and the blondes forced me to have sex with them even though I kept telling them it just didn't seem right site where I could post for all and sundry to see?

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:33:43 (EDT)
From: PatC b)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Nothing more to say, ham
Message:
You said it all. Especially liked you final paragraph.

Could you give me the site address of either an ev or official bigboy where I can give vent to any number of calumnies that have been heaped upon me by mr squeeky clean I never knew one of my mahatmas was a paedophile and I'm doing everything in my power to put it right but ev is an independent organization and it was the mahatmas who said I was lord of the universe and the blondes forced me to have sex with them even though I kept telling them it just didn't seem right site where I could post for all and sundry to see?

I'm too busy at present to spend much time here. This thread's been great although I haven't bothered to read PT's posts. I don't read premies especially cowardly anonymice. Totally insincere, pretentious, holier than thou, fundamentalist and phony. I will email you tomorrow.

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:36:44 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Sure Hamzen! You Mac user (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:50:19 (EDT)
From: rank frank hamzen
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Is that it? It doesn't seem right to me
Message:
And that's your response, you mean all the comments I made were accurate, weren't accurate?.
As a guru bronnosing representative surely you can put these things right for me, like put a word in for the boss and those are just a small number of the gripes with big boy that I have.

Or is that it, the usual premie zomboid posts?

Anyway big boy has a bunch of fat cat lawyers who would jump on the lies if they were lies, after all mr squeeky clean.........

Maybe he doesn't because he knows that the darkness in this site is vanished, jus like that, when the light from his cars, and boats and planes just glance in our direction, stop worrying, have faith, have you forgotten the power of THAT perfection

remember jai sat chit anand

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:21:13 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: All
Subject: JHB's kind offer
Message:
Dear JHB,
Thank you for your offer to remove inaccuracies from the EPO website.
The first one to go should be the headline in 'The Truth About Maharaji' which says 'Drug money finances Maharaji'.
It goes on to say 'The manufacture and sales of illegal drugs is used to help finance Maharaji's lavish lifestyle'.
This is clearly dishonest and inaccurate as already pointed out in previous posts.
Once this is removed I'll will provide you with another exaample.
Looking forward to working wiith you.
Thanks
PT
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 11:35:54 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: A Little Help
Message:
PT,

My offer still stands. Just to help you through the maze of internet sites concerning Maharaji, the pages I am responsible for all begin with www.ex-premie.org. I know that some of the other websites do contain inaccurate statements, but there is nothing I can do about that. One site for instance claims that Maharaji never claimed to be God.

I'm looking forward to your help in cleaning up www.ex-premie.org.

Thanks,

John.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:46:49 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Re: JHB's kind offer
Message:
PT
you seem to have overlooked the fair trade aspect of the request. Nature abhors a vacuum. If the money does not come from drug manufacture or sales, it must be coming from something else. We request an accurate accounting of where it has come from, and what it has gone to. These numbers are known, because books are kept. Lovers of money always delight in counting up how much they get and how much they spend. The only information that should rightly replace error, falsehood, innaccuracy or ignorance is the truth, don't you think?

So by all means, we would like the true accountings, if you please. We would act in all dispatch to take down our partial information, which came to us from a firsthand source who was involved, and replace it with much more complete and true information.

By all means--we are waiting for your better information. And I mean that without a trace of insincerity.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:52:01 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Prove otherwise
Message:
When you come up with hard evidence to dispute the information on EPO, then someone will listen to you. Just saying it is inaccurate is useless.
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:10:20 (EDT)
From: Common Knowledge
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: His MaMa Was Right Bout Him
Message:
Hey PT,

Lifted this from an archive. What do you think? I know about 'drug deals' and the 'Immigrant Marriages' demanded by GM to build the foundation of his world. Oh, and the tapes. Let's just say copies were made and kept in case of... revisionist tactics.

Here is the interesting archive:

xxx's Story

My name is xxx....and I'm an ex-premie. It took me about three years to get in and finally out of the corrupt and spiritually bankrupt
organization called Divine Light Mission. I don't know if it's
changed...but the person who heads it, Guru Maharaj Ji is still
playing people for the suckers that they are.

I was a premie from April 12, 1972, when I received 'knowledge' in
Hartford, Connecticut, until I left the Divine Light Mission (DLM) and
Guru Maharaj Ji (GM) following the break-up of his family in 1974-75.

I grew up a devote Baptist going to church every Sunday...singing in the choir . My grandfather and uncle had been lay preachers, and my brother became a minister. Yet I decided that Christianity and other trappings of Judeo-Christian religion were not for me after reading Aristotle and other philosophers in junior high. While I attended
church with the folks, more and more I yearned for a deeper spiritual
understanding of the universe, myself and my place in it. I could not fully accept everything by faith alone and needed a more fundamental understanding of things.

I came to hear about GM through a close friend of mine from college. Ray and I had done a lot of spiritual and personal experimenting: we had plied our brains and systems with LSD scores of times and had visited Meher Baba's retreat in Myrtle Beach, SC. I practiced Transcendental Meditation and was into reading about Zen, Buddhism and other things spiritual.

Ray came down from Hartford to tell me that he had found the answer to a lot of our inner questions. He had found the answer to what we called 'IT.' So, I went to satsang with him, and something (at the time) did seem to ring true. Whether this was wish fulfillment or whatever, I can't tell you. I went with Ray and his girlfriend and future wife to hear Mata Ji in Hartford. It was an incredible event...one that filled me with peace and joy and
most definitely love. This was something I thought was REAL. I went the next day to take knowledge. I was turned down. I went again and
Mahatma Rajeshwaranand accepted me and then taught me and the few others in the room the meditation techniques and the Truth (with a capital T) that was GM. Little did I know then what a lot of BS the organization that surrounded the meditation really was....

Following receiving the knowledge, I moved in with three other premies
in a small house outside Bridgeport, Connecticut. The four of us turned our living room and home into a devotional center. We had all been former Dead head and our hair was cut short and we wore
ties. We put on programs at the University of Bridgeport and at Yale University where people would give satsang, trying to convince others that the '...'Lord of the Universe' has come to us today....'

I had, by this time, dropped out of college, and eventually contacted
DLM in Denver, responding to an ad they had for people who had worked in radio, film and audio. I had done radio work in college and had
volunteered to join Shri Hans Productions in Los Angeles. Denver gave me its blessings, I packed a duffle bag and a small satchel...and ith $50, a one-way bus ticket to L.A. via Denver, and all my earthly possessions went to Los Angeles.

When I got there, no one knew I was coming. Apparently, things had
gotten screwed up between Denver and L.A. I remember the person who
headed the DLM in Los Angeles, a short, dark-haired guy by the name of
David who asked me accusingly who I was. I never felt so out of place
and unwelcome in my life.

Luckily, however, I was placed with a premie house...as I could only
stay in the ashram a day or two. People in that house and I became
close, close friends...whom I have unfortunately lost touch with over the last 10 or 15 years. But in that house we became very close to.
Los Angeles

Our house was very involved in the Los Angeles DLM. We did flowers
arrangements for the ashrams and for the major event when GM and the
rest of his family were in town and for lesser events.

DLM's Shri Hans Productions could not use me. Their needs were much more specific for handling film sound synchronization. So, I had to find a job. Because of my background in radio and music, I eventually took a job with a sheet music company in L.A. But that was short-lived because I quit to fly to London in 1973 for Guru Puja. I drove cross-country with two others in a two-door Ford Pinto to get to New
York City and the charter Icelandic Airlines 707s that carried us to London.

Coming back from London, I found another job, and our house continued to become more and more involved with GM and DLM. I did grounds keeping and some electrical work at GM's house on Sunset Blvd. We helped renovate a new ashram that DLM bought in mid-town L.A. (seems
like it was on Wilshire Blvd. or just off it).

I remember working at the Sunset Blvd. house one day when GM drove in
with a bright red Austin Mini Cooper S...a neat little sports car. GM
was riding behind the car along Sunset Blvd. in his Rolls Royce, pulled the guy over and offered him cash for the car. The guy sold him the car on the spot.

We all had various jobs we did at GM's house on Sunset. One of the
people in our house became involved with Raja Ji's security force,
helping to guard GM and the family when they were in town. I did my turn of duty there, standing alert at the end of the drive way...which had a wrought iron fence installed for security reasons.

One of my house mates, Leslie, worked for a business in Santa Monica.
She introduced the owner of the company to DLM, and the owner eventually took knowledge. John was much older than any of us baby
boomers. Being a successful businessman, John was courted by DLM and
introduced to GM. He eventually became very close to GM and the rest of the family.

Houston was a bust...but we continued to serve. We peddled copies of the DLM magazine And It Is Divine door-to-door in West Los Angeles.

Marolyn Johnson -- some know her as Durga Ji -- lived in our premie
house for a while when she was a stewardess (that's what they called
them then) with Pacific Southwest Airlines (PSA). She owned a VW minibus that she parked in the driveway and slept in. She would come in and eat with us and used the bathroom. Though she lived
out of her VW. She really was very much a sexy, earth mother. She
wore very long flowing dresses....picture her twirling at a Greatful
Dead show and you get the picture.

We called Marolyn 'Mini Corn' because of a nick name given to her by her niece. We believed she seduced the GM and then black mailed him
into marrying him. Another reason for him marrying her was so that he
could become a U.S. citizen and be declared legally beyond the influences of his mother.

This was in-keeping with other DLM-arranged marriages. A number of
Americans, both men and women, married foreign-born premies so that the foreign premies could become legal U.S. citizens. Some of these
marriages were in name only, the husband and wife never having
consummated their marriage.

When GM and Marolyn married, all hell broke loose.

During this time, I had moved into my own apartment in Venice and became friends with members of Blue Aquarius....Bhole Ji's jazz big band. Some of the members were living in apartments in Venice, but Bhole Ji and other band members were renting a recording studio in Malibu called Shangri La. The place had separate motel-like cabins, but there were not enough to house all the band members.

When the split occurred, Bhole Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji sided with Mata Ji against GM and Raja Ji. Mata Ji declared that GM had been seduced by maya and had lost his divine spark.

So crazy was it that Raja Ji's security team swooped down on Bhole Ji
and the band in Malibu with guns and tire irons. Luckily no one, to my
recollection, was hurt. But the band members split very quickly....this was during the time that the Paul McCartney album
and song 'Band on the Run' was popular...it was number one on the
charts in May 1974...so it was totally appropriate. The band left in a
couple of cars and vans and split for Oregon and the Crater Lake area.

Just prior to the split, people who I had lived with in the premie house and I had become aware of a lot of goings on behind the scenes that were not appropriate. It was common knowledge, for example, that GM's first U.S. visit was financed by a hashish deal that premies had made. Reportedly, an entire table of carved hashish -- that was shellacked to look like wood -- was smuggled in, then broken apart and sold to finance the place trip for GM and some of his Mahatmas.
Most of us being ex-hippies shrugged our shoulders as the idea of
good smoke financing GM's visit.

But there were other things that were even more disturbing that
eventually caused us to leave the DLM. John had secretly taped recorded some conversations that he heard over the phone at GM's Sunset Blvd. house. There was a five-button phone...and when GM went into another room to take calls, John secretly tape recorded some of GM's private conversations from the front sitting room.

One of these calls included GM talking about a mahatma that had raped a woman at an ashram in the East Coast of the U.S. Another call was GM
talking about smuggling money in a suitcase into the U.S. over the
Canadian border to support his now growing extravagant lifestyle. Him
saying that he needed the money....

John brought those tapes back to us and played them for us, and we just flipped out. We could not believe the extent of the corruption that had infiltrated the Divine Light Mission. The marriage to Marolyn Johnson was the straw the broke the camel's back.

We wrote a letter from us concerned premies and mailed to ashrams world wide, basically outlining the facts that things were not as they
appeared. This was not 'lila' as some would called it, but it was ownright criminal activity that was occurring. We now know that this letter never made it to the premies in the ashrams.

We were literally excommunicated, but we had all decided to leave DLM,
to support Mata Ji, Bal Bhagwan Ji and Bhole Ji . . . but most definitely to leave DLM.

John continued to work with Mata Ji and the rest of the family....helping to get them safely out of the country. We met with Bal Bhagwan Ji and Bhole Ji a couple of times...wtih members of the
band.

But my friends and I eventually parted DLM and even the rest of the hold family. We lived with each other on and off in shared homes and
apartments for many years....but we eventually all have gone our separate ways.

I became totally disillusioned in organized religion that I've become
probably more an atheist or at least an agnostic. I guess my spiritual
beliefs system is closest now to the later Joseph Campbell...and am 'Following My (OWN) Bliss.'

t wasn't until I was doing some Web surfing and put a search of Guru
Maharaj Ji into an Internet search engine that I came across the
ex-premie.org Web site. I hope that my story, especially the things in
the last few months during the break up and split, will be enlightening to current premies and ex-premies alike.

I think GM believed himself to be Lord of the Universe. We premies fed
that diillusioned belief. This is a man (only a man) with a huge ego
that needed stroking. Who had a lust for fast cars and many things of THIS world. This was the basis by which we gave up literally everything to follow him. It was illusion....we saw only one side.
What most premies didn't see was the lying, the subtrifuge, the criminal on-goings behind the scenes. This was worse than the unravelling of Jim and Tammy Fay Baker to me. At least Baker was only a preacher. GM thought himself the Sat Guru, an incarnation of Krishna, the Perfect Master. But in the end, he was just like any one of us....and certainly he is no God, big 'G' or little 'g.'

This has all been interesting, remembering. Cathartic is the word for
it. It has been a 'long strange trip' for me. But I've moved on.....

September 15, 1997

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:34:54 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Common Knowledge
Subject: I'm shocked Jim.
Message:
What a great story.
You're point being that M's first to the U.S. in 1971 was supposedly funded by a hashish deal that premies had made.
Unbelievable.
I had no idea premies smoked dope.
Next you'll be telling me some of them work in the porn industry.
PT
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 07:05:13 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Listen jerk
Message:
Before you come here to disrupt our forum go and read around so you can inform yourself, Oh, I forgot. You are a premie. A special being who has learned to thing in such a particular way, non-discrimitation is your way, isn't? You say what sounds good onle: Go buy a brain. You seem to need one.

You are either a mahariachi friend who is trying to clean his dirt or a silly brainwashed cult member who would forgive his MASTER even if he commited murder because you have lost all morals...

go away, you silly being, silly either way; if you are a cult memmber or mahariachi's friend!

I had no idea premies smoked dope.

Yes, many premies I know smoke dope, why? Because K doesn't work and for you to deny it, pleeeeeeeeeeeeease.....

PREMIE NUMBER ONE >B>YOuR MASTER DRINKS AND SMOKES HIMSELF.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:13:57 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Re: I'm shocked Jim.
Message:
let's hear your rationalization apologia for his wanting the suitcase full of money smuggled in.

oh--and PT?
the DEA doesn't see a few hippies smoking dope the same way they classify importing under false documents a table made of carved and shellacked hashish, which was then broken up and distributed on the streets to several hundred, for a profit sufficient to fly a family and several attendents from India to America, and then provide for them handsomely in luxury, during their stay and travels
it isn't only a story, PT. It's first person testimony of felony criminal conspiracy.

you know the meaning of the term 'conspiracy', right? it means 'breathing together'.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 18:17:40 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: janet
Subject: Hey Janet, did you notice
Message:
he didn't question my arms for drugs post about supporting Maha. We be talking Big Time Cocaine:(Hundreds of Millions of Dollars worth, yea! I personally met the Attorney who Prosecuted the case in California at a political fuction). We talked about our common premie friend for quite a while. Real nice guy. This was the 80's. Big Big Big case. PT should be careful what he challenges.

Anyhow I have a question and perhaps a favor to ask of you, could you please email me at your convenience.

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:56:19 (EDT)
From: Common Knowledge
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: What did I say PT
Message:
Jim didn't post this. Neither did Francesca.

His mother was right about him PT. He continues the cycles he adapted to as a teenager.

He is nothing. He is the void ALL premies will eternally deal with. He is darkness personified. He is cold and empty. He is the child of no one, he is the father of no one, he is the friend of no one, he is the lover of no one. His eyes reflect the image of no one.

He Nothing.... once one looks closely... he is nothing at all....

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:30:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Common Knowledge
Subject: Francesca?
Message:
Fran,

This is the report I asked you about earlier re 'Band on the Run'. Do you take issue with this guy?

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:34:54 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yo friend. Innaccurate!
Message:
Yeah, that Band on the Run story is inaccurate. Carl and I could straighten it out with the help of another friend (we were all in the band at the time). Several of the band members had to leave town, but it was over immigration stuff, not the scene where DLM seized our equipment by force. Those two things weren't connected. Some of the Europeans did go up to Crater Lake in Oregon for a few weeks due to the immigration problems caused by something screwy that DLM did with their passports. I'm in touch with one of them in Europe via e-mail, actually. I could go on straightening out various parts of the account if someone wants, and e-mail it to Carl if JHB or Drek wants me to, but it's not correct. I know it's in the Journeys, and it's on Drek's site too.

I mean, people are allowed to post whatever they want. Thanks for pointing this out though. It used to bug me to see it there, but the person who wrote it didn't see my posts on this.

bests, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:09:40 (EDT)
From: Common Knowledge
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: Yo friend. Innaccurate!
Message:
Hi Francesca,

When I found that 'posting' I wondered about 'some' parts of it. I know about the sundry drug deals over the years as well as the 'Agya' for certain 'premies' to gain entrance to the U.S.

What I would like to know is your take on the 'Hashish' incident, the Canadian Suitcase incident, and the Asten Martin incident. If you feel comfortable commenting. The Asten Martin had me wondering. I know about the Mazerrati and how that was obtained, and presented. I am not certain about the other car.

So, whatever you're comfortable sharing ... please do.

P.S. Was the band's equipment seized? If so, by who?

CK

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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 00:24:15 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Common Knowledge
Subject: Common Knowledge -- one addition
Message:
What you have to understand regarding the information we're discussing, however, is that the innaccuracy lies with the poster. Someone said this constituted erroneous information on EPO (www.ex-premie.org), and that's not quite correct. EPO's information portions, such as the White Papers are well researched. There's a difference between the information on EPO posted by the webmaster and the 'Journeys' section.

The 'Journeys' section is personal impressions posted by individuals, and it's just as much a free speech thing as this Forum (which is a separate entity from EPO). Unlike EV websites, the Journeys are close to uncensored. In other words, posts like this Journey, or any of the Journeys, do not constitute any 'official' position on the part of EPO.

bests, F

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:56:31 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Common Knowledge
Subject: Re: Yo friend. Innaccurate!
Message:
For most of those things you mention I have no comment, because I don't know, wasn't there, don't want to add to the misinformation. There was a green car, I believe an Aston Martin, but it could have been one of the many others, and Marolyn wanted to get it for M's birthday, so the premies all over were pressured by their communities to raise money for it.

Since I lived in LA I got to be at the big party when M opened a huge package that had the car inside. He was very happy with it, and acted very surprised.

DLM seized our band's equipment during the family split-up. Since it was clear that we were not coming back to the fold (I did go back eventually, from 1976 to 1985), DLM felt they owned it and wanted to break our spirit and make us come back. The equipment was seized by force. Our equipment guys (think their names were Kenny and Tom) were guarding the equipment and I know there was a scuffle. Tire irons could have been involved. Either way it was ugly. Then end of the premie 'peace and love.' Pure ugly business. I do remember DLM honchos and others from the LA area community.

Donner did make the point on the Forum that the band was a major expense for DLM, so once we gave DLM the heave-ho, they wanted to 'liquidate' our assets, recoup their losses, whatever. Always two sides to every story like that.

--f

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 11:43:02 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yeah, Kenny Geltman & Tom Quick.
Message:
Do you remember Larry Hart? Big heavy guy, sweetheart with a southern accent. He was one of the manager/tech guys with the band. I think he had his credit cards maxxed out in 'service-related' expenditures. We roomed together in Thousand Oaks to where the band had retreated at one point. Also, do you remember Peter Martin? He was one of the first to leave. It was pretty traumatic. He went through a silent hell during the unsavory revelations at the time of the 'big split', and Bhole Ji was deeply saddened by his decision to leave. He was Bhole Ji's personal assistant as well as a trumpet player in the band.

Such strong memories. Emotions ran deep and we were wrenched by the 'cosmic drama' of it all. Even though it may seem sort of comical in retrospect, the feelings of the time were full of anguish and sense of betrayal and subsequent deep doubt. In the long run, it was a lucky thing to have been on the opposite side of the schism. It really was an eye-opener into the nastiness of M's DLM world. And it clearly planted a seed of confidence in one's own unfiltered, 'undogmafied' experience of personal reality. Somewhere I still have the letter that they sent around at that time, to explain the unravelling situation.

So, Fran, how are you doin'? I've been away from Forum for a while, but I did follow its own recent 'lila' (nyuck, nyuck). Delighted it's back on track. Glad the usual cast of characters are back in full force.

It's so amusing to watch the premies squirm and dodge. They seem to forget that 'that experience' is not unique to them. We have also felt 'that' connection, felt 'that' grace. And may even continue to do so, in some deeply personal way, to the central energy of our lives. After all, the people in the Satpal world also claim the same thing about him. Some people are ecstatic over Jesus, or you-name-it.

I think some people are just wired for a different destiny or a different realization, perhaps as jnani-come-lately's, and have little attraction to the current bhakti-field-in-motion. It's just so curious that premies (and M!) ascribe or promote the idea of a proprietary ownership and responsibility for their individual inward experiences to that odd little Rawat fellow. Then they are smug about it. It's both funny and quite sad, like seeing grown-ups stuffing themselves into kindergarten desks and mewling in baby-talk in front of an M-featured inflated balloon. Talk about 'get a life'!

Best wishes, Fran,
Carl

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:39:56 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Re: Yeah, Kenny Geltman & Tom Quick.
Message:
So glad you had the names. Yes those were interesting times. Larry Hart was the roadie for the Apostles, for my short stint with that band when it was in Atlanta, GA. He loved us so much and had a lot of music industry knowledge from the trenches. And he gave great foot massages, as I recall. He kind of puppy dogged us and you can't turn down someone busting their butt for free, because of their devotion to the cause (which was our cause -- propagation through rock-n-roll).

When Colleen Veader and I were called up by Bhole Ji and traded for Susan Burns and Dana Whitney (they were sent to the Apostles, where Susan married Mad Dog Phil Marriott, and Dana got together with Mark, the lead guitar player). We got Larry somewhere along the line, probably when someone or other sung his praises to Bhole Ji. He gave his all, and got burned out. I stayed in touch with him for a while in LA, but lost track of him. Last time I talked with him he was doing the sound for an Elton John rehearsal in LA.

I remember Peter Martin, because when I went back to the premie community in LA he was there. Always quiet. 'Grace chops' -- the envy of the other trumpet players because they practiced for hours, and Peter drove Bhole Ji around and was always taking care of things and didn't have much time to practice. But then when the band was really cooking, into some improv jam or other, Bhole Ji would point to Peter and that solo was always s-w-e-e-t!

I'm doing OK, just got my computer back from the shop -- haven't yet tested the hardware they installed, and trying to stay away from arguing with premies while interacting with some of the folks here. Glad to have you back, and was wondering where you were. But I think it's healthy to take a break from this place. I only seem to last a few days and then I'm back.

You really hit the nail on the head with 'uniqueness' issue. We have something that you don't have. The cry of most religions, isn't it. Not so obvious as the 'chosen people.' And Satpal and probably 1,000 other gurus or masters in India are teaching the same kriyas. And people are having an experience through whatever gateway they choose.

Religion and politics. The raw material for wars.

love, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:56:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: It sure sounds like fun, doesn't it?
Message:
That BA tour sounds like a lot of fun now, doesn't it? Sure beats the regular ashram tour. Music all the time, a looser than ashram lifestyle, darshan, of course. I'm not being faceitous; it just sounds like a fun, if crazy, thing to be caught up in. Kind of like M*A*S*H.

And therein lies the irony. We did have our youthful idealism and community energy. It was kind of fun in so many ways. Mind you, I'd imagine that even verterans of the Chinese Cultural Revolution would have their memories. Yet, to be fair, we weren't exactly killing our teachers and eating them.

That was the first thing Raja Ji asked me when I spoek out at that program in L.A. in the late eighties.

'But, were you HAPPY in the ashram?'

I'm still satisfied with my answer, though --

'That's not the question! I could have been happy by disposition. Or not. The question is 'was it true? I moved into your brother's ashram because he was supposedly the Lord of the Universe and this was the beginning of the end of Kali Yuga. I moved in to realize God. To surrender my life entirely to him in exchange for salvation. And the question is, my question anyway, 'was it true?''

And, as we know, the answer's 'no'.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:20:32 (EDT)
From: DEborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, what's that?
Message:
Jim,

I never read a post about you speaking out abot FRAUD at a program in L.A. What year?

Was this one of the BigHead's programs?

Could you repeat that story, please.

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:28:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Common Knowledge
Subject: Everyone should read this! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:57:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: What?
Message:
Your earlier posts failed on this point as they were poorly reasoned. No one agreed with you. So what the hell are you talking about?
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:37:25 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Passing Through
Subject: That's my site, not EPO
Message:
That's on my site and not EPO. I'm not removing it because I have been told that it's true. So please move on to your next example. I've got to go back to bed now.
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:53:29 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: David
Subject: This is like EV
Message:
Apologies.
I didn't realize that EPO and EPF are completely seperate.
Since EPF has not made the offer to remove inaccuracies there is not point in giving you another example.
I'll speak to JHB directly.
PT
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 21:38:22 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Would you guys please give me your opinion on this
Message:
Starts off me asking CD in particular the same question I'd asked all the premies generally:

Do YOU think Maharaji really means it when he says that he can save you from the 'clutches of death'? You know, you can make your answer as 'positive' as you want, I don't care. I'm just curious what you think, that's all.

Chris then answered:

I don't know THE answer to what is meant by being saved from the 'clutches of death'. Possibly means death can be terrifying and the feeling of peace can be soothing.

I then referred to Chris' answer as follows:

CD suggested that maybe he meant that he could make death less scary.

to which he replied:

That isn't what I said at all. Only your interpretation.

What do YOU think? Is Chris right that I entirely 'misinterpreted' his words? Or, alternatively, is Chris playing games?

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:29:37 (EDT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: All or nothing at all
Message:
Totally sympathise Jim. I have given up trying to communicate rationally with premie-ji. He has a conceptual disconnect point which cuts in very suddenly. The problem, as we all have noticed, is that beyond a certain point, he has no language to describe,let alone debate his experience. And as I say this point cuts in very suddenly.

All he has is a contextless 'experience' and a determination to talk big. Taking a mighty in-breath, throwing the head back and uttering can impress in many circles too. Not here.

I can see why CD feels misinterpreted though. He's been caught thinking for himself, speculating about the words of the master, and he is desparate to cover his tracks and stop it going any further!

He poses two megalithic and absolutely divorced concepts.(death-terifying, and the feeling of peace-soothing.) They are separate, self-contained notions, and when confronted, he is determined to keep them that way. This is classic premie absolutism. Either you're in that place, and everything is perfect, or your in your mind, and suffering.

For you to jump in and confuse the issue by suggesting that M makes death 'less scary' is unallowable. Premie ji can't talk about the relationship of death to K, or the subtlties of K and changing states of consciousness because he hasn't a clue or the vocabulary. He hits premie vanishing point, and to prevent himself entering prem void, beyond which he has no conceptual grasp,digs in. He thumps his fist and insists on fundamentals.
Death, is either scary or nothing. there is no 'less scary' option. Your phrase is a distortion, a smearing. Making death less scary is not a possibility. Its either death or its peace.
The only remedy to scary death is peace, which he states is a feeling, and can be soothing-and thats all. These are the choices as put (as the master would like them), so take it or leave it. Don't try to interpret.

Oh my God. I have been this guy.

Love Bryn

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:37:07 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: CD? What do you think of Bryn's post?
Message:
Excellent, excellent post, Bryn. I just wonder, what must it be like for someone like CD to get such incredible live-off-the-floor feedback? Do you think any of it penetrates? What goes on 'up there' when he reads this?

By the way, CD is definitely an asshole in that he knows that we would love to look in to his thought process at times like this but he a) pretends to not know that and b) enjoys the confusion he causes.
Once, we actually had a real debate going on about whether or not he's brain-damaged. He must have loved that one! No, I honestly thinke he does.

How about you, Bryn? What's your guess? Do you think he's enjoying himself in moments like this? I know you can't really know for sure but what's your guess anyway?

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:14:26 (EDT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hooray for thinking
Message:
Dear Jim,
I am truly indifferent to CD and his mental life. What interests me is myself! A longing for clarity of thought is not something all of us have, so CD is welcome to his ramblings. After 25 years of mental slurry at the hands of K,I, however am desparate to get a grip!
Jim, I like your posts and pointed style, don't stop. Its a pity that there isn't a restrained editing process hereabouts though. It would stop people like you (are there any?) shooting fish in a barrel, and also keep the brainless attention seekers from cluttering up the airwaves.
Hooray!
One point I am learning. There is no need to leap from Maharajiism into unmitigated scientific materialism. Can we agree to differ on this ?
Love Bryn
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:32:02 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Re: Hooray for thinking
Message:
One point I am learning. There is no need to leap from Maharajiism into unmitigated scientific materialism. Can we agree to differ on this ?

What do you think? :)

And as for your concern about me shooting too many fish, too often, thanks. It's a problem. Can I get blocked again? :)

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 18:48:13 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, I'm powerless;)
Message:
One point I am learning. There is no need to leap from Maharajiism into unmitigated scientific materialism. Can we agree to differ on this ?

What do you think? :)

And as for your concern about me shooting too many fish, too often, thanks. It's a problem. Can I get blocked again? :)


---

I was thinking about what to type here, and looking at the normal, dirty, cream colour of my computer equipment, I decided that I didn't like it. My keyboard, monitor, computer, mouse, scanner, and printer are all the same crap colour. Who chose it anyway???

John.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:44:28 (EDT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Lets differ ! - with a unifying enthusiasm. nt.
Message:
df
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:36:36 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Re: All or nothing at all
Message:
great post bryn...of both the content and the context.
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:13:45 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: f y p
Message:
Jim,

Your interpretation of what I believe is like drinking Sunny Delight instead of fresh squeezed orange juice. And there are people who drink both.
Me, its got to be Naked Juice.

Get it?

CD

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:18:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: What's that mean, Chris?
Message:
Chris,

Everyone who's really looked at this has called you wrong here. Does that mean anything to you?

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:49:48 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What's that mean, Chris?
Message:
>Does that mean anything to you?

Yes, Sunny Delight is a bigger seller than Naked Juice. And also a lot cheaper.

CD

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:37:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Do you FEEL like a coward, Chris?
Message:
Because you sure look like one.
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:49:52 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No, I am doing just fine
Message:
Jim,

You write a lot. You are prolific.
Doesn't mean you know what you are talking about.
Sure, you stick to your thoeries. But so what.
They are just your theories.
And your rants and misdirected headlines, cries to gain legitimacy.
You have your fan club. Fine.
I have my sanity and am enjoying playing my guitars.
And for a retarded type of guy, I have a decent job and friends.

You don't have any answers to promote peace. But, what an ego!

Cheers,
CD

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:02:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: That's what YOU think
Message:
You think you're doing fine but I see you as one very fucked-up individual. Honestly, I don't know any other adult who avoids rational interaction like you. It's almost like you're in a bubble. Wonder what'll happen if and when the bubble breaks.
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 03:54:35 (EDT)
From: sivan
Email: sivan28@yahoo.com
To: Jim
Subject: bullshit
Message:
I've seen 2 (practising) premies die- m didn't even enter the equation- they were only into family-loved ones. This is shit. Sadly m didn't come through- once again... only made the passing sadder.. he has no magic powers. At least those who know that can avoid one big disappointment.
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:20:27 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: easy money Jim!
Message:
Terrifying vs. soothing?
scary vs. less scary? Sounds like you win that one Jim!
I am God vs. I never said that?
CD and M both loose!
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:28:46 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: For the record -- this is NOT Beyerstein
Message:
Hey, Barry, have you ever? Monkeys at keyboards. Worse. Premies.

I swear to God I was never like that. Never. In my day, you tried to talk straight and if, somehow, things got too delicate (i.e. someone started talking about a subject that was confusing and you didn't have a good party line off-the-rack comeback) you begged off saying that you just couldn't use the mind to understand the truth. That kind of nonsense. But to lie like these assholes?? Never!

By the way, you know that you're Barry Clarke and not Barry Beyerstein, don't you? Beyerstein's the prof that's agreed to serve on the never-to-be panel I proposed to shut those fuckers up. You're the guy that moved to Edmonton.

By the way, you should see 'Planet of the Apes'. Best movie I can remember in a long time. Right up there with 'The Wedding Planner'.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:46:19 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim! are you a hole lota Heller?
Message:
Jim is this you? My friend and co-consperitor in musical crime?
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 19:26:18 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: Jim! are you a hole lota Heller?
Message:
Hi Barry,

Thanks for your kind words and concern. Francesca and I are okay. I want to tell you that I thought you were the other Barry at first when I posted. oops. You didn't sound confused that I congradulated you on accepting Jim's offer to judge the debate. Taking credit where it's not due, eh?

So, you lived here in Victoria before moving to Edmonton?

Deborah

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:49:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Francesca?
Message:
I'm just curious what the criteria are for your 'premie good list'. Does being a bald-faced liar help?
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:59:09 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: They just have to be nice to me
Message:
I don't even need bribes. The premie good list is people who are nice to me and don't rip into me every chance they can. I'm not asking for much, but most of the premies who post here don't pass muster. But maybe the anons are not premies. Maybe they are ghosts, saved from the clutches of death, but given the divine service of haunting the ex-premies.

--f

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 01:05:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Okay, got that ... but, please?
Message:
Fran,

Take a moment, if you will, and read this over. Do you think that CD was being honest or sincere when he said that I misinterpreted him?

Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:05:21 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: In his own mind, probably yes
Message:
It's a matter of semantics. I think by 'feeling of peace' he was meaning something more than just 'less scary.' 'Feeling of peace' might have meant 'that place,' a deep spiritual experience, who knows?

As bare words, it comes out to about the same thing, but he put it in a softer, if you will, more poetic light, and you gave it a mug shot.

Speaking of mug shots: 'Wherever I look, your face is before me.' Aahhhhh. Could you IMAGINE that??? Maybe that's what will happen if I post here too long.

--f

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:22:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Come on, Fran
Message:
Fran,

What are you saying here? I asked CD what m meant about being able to save premies from the clutches of death. CD replied that maybe Maharaji meant that death is terrifying and that he, Maharaji, might be able to bring a soothing feeling of peace -- obviously, in the face of that terror. Referring to his answer in another post, I said that CD thought that maybe Maharaji meant that he could make death less scary. Fran, it's the same thing, for God's sake! Bringing a soothing feeling of peace in the face of terror is indeed making something less scary. It's a simpler, less florrid way of saying it but it all amounts to the same thing. Of course it does.

CD, however, reacted by saying that I didn't get it 'at all'.

But if you want to see how really nuts he is, unable to quote himself properly let alone actually discuss something, look at his fuller answer:

That isn't what I said at all. Only your interpretation.
Finding a true feeling of love and hope is not the same as making the source of fear less scary.

Think about it. CD is claiming -- now -- that when he said:

I don't know THE answer to what is meant by being saved from the 'clutches of death'. Possibly means death can be terrifying and the feeling of peace can be soothing.

he was talking about 'finding a true feeling of love and hope'!

Fran, do you see anything about 'finding a true feeling of love and hope' in his answer? I don't. I just see a comment about 'soothing peace' which, given the context, must mean [in the face of] death which can be 'terrifying.'

This is madness! CD is so skittish about being actually caught up in a logical discussion that he plays absurd, nonsense games like this one. It's reprehensible, isn't it?

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 14:06:57 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That place
Message:
Jim:

That phrase 'that place.' Says it all. Premies have jargon that means more to them than the actual words said, so he may think that he meant more than what he said. But you're not a mind reader, and you're not a premie. His interpretation may be what a premie would have understood him to mean.

A few words = the whole ball of wax, K, M and that peace, that place, whatever.

You're spot on when you say: It's a simpler, less florrid way of saying it but it all amounts to the same thing.

He meant more than he said, obviously. But why couldn't he have just said that, instead of saying you didn't get it??? Not having seen all the posts and the dynamic of your exchanges with CD, he's probably quite defensive with you. Which of course, only makes the whole thing worse.

Here's for example, is EV latest description of Knowledge from its website:

Maharaji offers more than words alone. He teaches a practical way to access and understand a profound inner experience. 'Knowledge', as it is called, is the means to know that feeling.

Ai yi! Feelings, whoa, whoa, whoa, feelings ....

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:02:26 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: feelings
Message:
>Ai yi! Feelings, whoa, whoa, whoa, feelings ....

Yes, like the magic feeling of just having performed a great song.
Yeah, its the adrenaline ...

CD

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:35:20 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: But as you know from playing music ...
Message:
... yourself, it's way more than adrenaline, eh?

bests, F

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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 17:30:28 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: But as you know from playing music ...
Message:
>... yourself, it's way more than adrenaline, eh?

I don't have any desire to go about classifying the experience as some sort of chemical reaction. A useless exercise for my purposes.

What I do know is that , yes, performing music can be a wonderful adventure with suprising rewards that feel great.
Oh, and there are those times when it doesn't work and you feel like a deer in the spotlight.
We don't have any simple switches to turn the good vibes on. We just have to keep doing our best and have the hope and desire not to give up when the beauty eludes us.

Cheers,
CD

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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 18:11:27 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Deer in the spotlight
Message:
Been there, done that!

Wasn't trying to classify anything as a chemical reation though. I'm not one of those science majors.

Doing out best and not giving up when the beauty eludes us ... definitely! Nothing comes into a cup that's turned upside down. Receptivity creates the space.

Cheers to you too,
Francesca

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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 19:08:40 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Don't forget stitch in time saves nine [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 13:53:23 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Come on, Fran
Message:
hi jim, i cann't believe i am actually posting here in this conversation...but here goes anyways. whereas i generally agree with you most of the time jim, you often go to a level,type of conversation that is 'logical' and always agumentative. on one hand you say you are just curious and invite some to comment but when they do you generally make the same judgements about their responses.

my experience with those i love and with those i generally disagree with is to really try to listen and make a sincere attempt to understand the essense of what they are getting at. this often takes the form of what is often refered to as reflective listening...that is, speaking back to the voice/person...'this is what i am hearing you say', or ' this is what i get from what you are saying'..and it is important in this type of conversation to realy try to reflect it back in the spirit in which it is stated...no matter how much i might disagree witgh it. to reflect it back with a tone of cynicism, or derision for example would defect the purpose of establishing some communication...a foundation of trust that is needed to really have communication. for a conversation to go forward, the speakers must FEEL heard.

the next part of the process is to ask clarifying questions...again, it is important to do this in a way that is not threatening and certainly does not come off as judgemental. a tone of judging or threatening..even a tone, will defeat the purpose of building real conversation. so, gently probing questions to clarify is important.

the emphasis here is on gently...not judging, striving to find the feeling behind the words ...these are generally accepted foundations to creating conversation and dialogue.

of course, at the end of the process, one is certainly entitled to respectfully disagree once one is sure they have understood the essese of the point of view the other has taken.

my experience in my life has shown that when these elements are missing, then generally i doubt that other is really interested in genuine conversation and would rather continue to strive towards being right rather then being intimate. being right was (still is too often) very important to me (and a form of dominance in my way of relating). I have learned (sometimes even practice) trying to be intimate rather then right. (and intimate does not mean, in love or agree with of course).

so, the nitpicking of words hardly helps create any of the foundation(s) necessary to real joining.

now, when i have expressed ideas like this before in various posts they have been met with critical sloganering (?)...like being put into some new age category out of hand etc.

but one of the main reasons why i participate so rarely these days on the forum is mainly due to the tone, the nitpicking, the judging and shouting that goes on...the lack of honest attempts to dialogue, to gently probe the other for deeper understanding.

that is not to say that i do not end up at the same bottom line in my ideas and feeling about the personality cult that i saw and still see reflected that m has created and his followers pertetuate.. but you claim with a straight face to be merely curious (which is a soft, open stance to someone or something) and you do not seem, by your words and actions to be really sincerely just 'curious'. your agenda is always totally on your sleeve. no problem with that, rather with the feigned innocence of curiosity...and surprise that someone else then feels attacked and threaten by your language.
thanks for listening.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 14:41:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Hm, let's talk about this
Message:
Sorry, but I have to ask you, are you really that sensitive? I'm sorry, I don't think so. I think that's a certain kind of new age affectation I've seen before that really does stand in the way of rational discourse. (By the way, before I go any further, thank YOU for listening too! I have no joy in disagreeing with you for its own sake. Believe me or not, like you, I'm sure, I'm just trying to talk straight and call it like I see it.)

A few things, Mike. For one, I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that I'm dishonest somehow? That when I say I'm 'curious' I'm not all that curious, really? What? I've got some sort of dagger up my sleeve and the moments the premies answer the question ('Do YOU think Maharaji really means it when he says that he can save you from the 'clutches of death'?) I'm going to jump all over them? Maybe. I mean, I don't know. I just said it. But I guess, in retrospect, I really do think I know what the premies think it means. Well, maybe yes, maybe no. I don't know. Hell, Mike, I'm curious. :)

But so what, anyway? You know what I immediately thought when I read your post? I thought that you were truly being a 'hothouse flower'. Now, I don't mean that to be insulting, I really don't. Here's what I do mean. 'Hothouse flower' in the sense that you think that you need this protected environment to think or communicate clearly whereas I believe that that's nonsense. New age nonsense. Why do I say that? Because I work in an environment, the legal world, which is anything but touchy feely, soft and comforting like that. It's all a matter of words and arguments. Logic prevails and that's about it.

Let's say I'm dealing with an issue. Say I want to argue that a case should be stayed because of abuse of process or something. I marshall my evidence of where I think the cops or crown fucked up, why I think it's so serious and why I think the only fair remedy is to have the charges dismissed. I have to find and rely on the black letter statutory law of the criminal code as well as the precedential value of prior cases. It's all logic and persuasion. The crown, of course, does the same thing. They spin the facts their way, argue the law their way. At the end of the day, the judge has to apply the law to the facts, consider our repsective arguments and decide. You think there aren't a ton of underlying emotional currents involved? The accused, his or her family or friends, the victims, their family and friends, the public, the lawyers, the cops, even the judge -- everyone has their stake in the outcome and some of those interests are extremely charged, sensitive, raw and just plain smoking!

But so what? It's all a matter of logical argument, really. If the judge misapplies the law the court of appeal will review the whole thing, read all the words, all the arguments made in the court below, and then they'll hopefully get it right, applying the law to the facts.

I know you know all this, Mike, but I think you're so far removed from this kind of logical arena that it's worth mentioning. Nowhere in any of that process do people stop for the kind of sensitivity training you seem to be offering. Why? Because it isn't necessary. People come to the table knowing that they're expected to argue faihtfully, reasonably and logically. Everyone maintains that standard and no one gets hurt. If someone asks a question rhetorically (which seems to be what your complaint about my saying I'm 'curious' is largely about), so what? You have to play. You hit the ball back over the net, even if you can see it's a 'set-up', because that's the game. You'll have your turn to hit the ball when it's your turn. Right now, it's the other guy's serve.

What happens here, though, is a complete degradation of the communication process. Talk about 'nitpicking'! In the instant example, CD wasn't even doing that. He was just pretending to nitpick. There wasn't even anything to do that with though so he had to reinvent his earlier statement and pretend that he'd really been talking about love and happiness. This kind of chicanery wouldn't last ten seconds in a court of law. And no, neither the judge(s) nor any of the parties would be too delicate in giving it the bum's rush either. It's an infantile abuse of our ability to communicate and should be scorned accordingly.

My point, Mike, is that it's no excuse for the premies to argue, as they sometimes do, 'Hell, I don't have to answer your question because you're just going to diss my answer anyway' That's like a tennis player saying 'I don't have to receive your serve because you're just going to ace me anyway'. This is a discussion board and if you don't want to discuss the issues on the table, don't engage. That's it. The rest is all irrelevant whining.

I mean, coudl you imagine in tennis if your opponent suggested to play without lines? Or to get rid of the net? Or to only hit the ball back over the net if and when he felt like it? It'd suck, wouldn't it? So what's the difference?

Anyway, as I re-read your post I'm not really sure what you're saying, to be honest. Are you? And, while we're at it, could YOU please tell me what CD's doing when he says I entirely misinterpreted his initial answer?

Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 21:12:23 (EDT)
From: PatC;)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: FA, please block Jim
Message:
I'm trying to get some work done and this is the third post of his that I have not been able to ignore.
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:06:29 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: you got it!
Message:
>That when I say I'm 'curious' I'm not all that curious, really? What? I've got some sort of dagger up my sleeve and the moments the premies answer the question ('Do YOU think Maharaji really means it when he says that he can save you from the 'clutches of death'?) I'm going to jump all over them?

Very good self analysis!

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:11:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: FUCK OFF YOU WEENIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:

YOU'RE A PIECE OF SHIT, DICKEY!! YOU'RE A DISHONEST CULT MEMBER WITHOUT ANY SENSE OF HONESTY. EITHER YOU ENGAGE OR DON'T, BUT THIS POT SHOT STUFF IS BULLSHIT. FUCK OFF!!!!

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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 01:39:39 (EDT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sidebar
Message:
Jim,

Still at it, eh?

Chris may be a dishonest cult member, but you are a living obstacle to him possibly becoming anything else by coming here. Of course it is ultimately up to him to change, but you make it harder by your chronic unkindness to those with whom you disagree, whether you are right or not.

Beter to give him no energy at all than to create more negativity by carrying and manifesting your self-righteousness like a sledgehammer. It's not tough love with you, it's the meanness that lawyers use and become to win cases coming out here, just like it's always been.

If you have a job in the skunkworks, it would be considerate and mature of you to shower and change clothes before you go out visiting. Who else here throws their weight around like you? What gives you the right to be rude, crude, ugly and impolite? What's that you say? Chris MADE you do it? Come on Jim, you know better. Whoever you are angry at controls you.

I think if you start using more positivity in your presentation you will experience better results and more people respecting you and paying more atttention to you. When you are being more positive about what you are doing and less negative about what others are doing, I think you will like the results, that is, if happiness and fulfillment is what you seek, and not the urban legend of how you should be being.

Sincerely,

Sandy

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Date: Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 14:42:22 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You've got the same problem CD has
Message:
Sandy,

It's ALMOST as hard to talk with you as it is CD. You both play the same games (although, to be fair, he's worse).

Here's what I mean, You first said:

It's not tough love with you, it's the meanness that lawyers use and become to win cases coming out here, just like it's always been.

so I replied:

I'm sick of your stupid slams against lawyers.

Then you come back:

They are not stupid. They are most well-founded and documented. I do not speak against all lawyers or the legal profession. I speak against the heavy-handed sons-of-bitches who act like you when you think you have to do so to get your point across or win an argument. You cannot twist my words and get away with it, so don't even think about it. I know your game, even though I don't have a degree. That's what it is, a game of upmanship, fuck the truth, in so so many cases. That's the game you are in, even though you may have thought it was all about the truth when you were a starry eyed idealistic law student.

Now what is this, Sandy? Your comment was indeed a slag against lawyers generally. Or, to be fair, against any lawyers that try to win cases. Yes, of course, I'm being faceitious. As if there are any other kind! So I respond and then you pretend that I'm somehow twisting your words. You're impossible, Sandy. No wonder you're sensitive to CD's plight. You guys both either don't know how or choose not to argue honestly.

And, face it, Sandy, you've been busted herer on that point by lots and lots of people here, not just lawyers.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 01:41:53 (EDT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Haven't got time for the pain
Message:
Jim,

It's not sympathy for CD, it's being fed up with how you deal.
Enough said. If you don't get it, then you don't get it. Go try to do a turnabout with somebody who isn't as aware of your trip. I ain't turning 'round for you, like the old song says. Bye.

Sandy

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 02:31:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Don't you get it?
Message:
I'm a straight shooter, Sandy. Stand by your words, I'll stand by mine and maybe, just maybe, we can talk with one another. Do this funky-ass rubber language trip, we can't. Same for you, CD or anyone.
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Date: Sun, Aug 05, 2001 at 02:21:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: What is this, profession envy?
Message:
Sandy,

I'm sick of your stupid slams against lawyers. As for my 'unkindness' to Chris, I see it quite the other way around. Having said that, you're right that it's probably useless talking with him. I've got a problem with that, I know. But that hardly gets him off the hook. He's an asshole as is anyone who'll lie to your face just to see you lose it. Do I lose it? Yeah. So what?

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Date: Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 00:55:37 (EDT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You flatter yourself, missing the point entirely
Message:
Sandy,

I'm sick of your stupid slams against lawyers.

>They are not stupid. They are most well-founded and documented. I do not speak against all lawyers or the legal profession. I speak against the heavy-handed sons-of-bitches who act like you when you think you have to do so to get your point across or win an argument. You cannot twist my words and get away with it, so don't even think about it. I know your game, even though I don't have a degree. That's what it is, a game of upmanship, fuck the truth, in so so many cases. That's the game you are in, even though you may have thought it was all about the truth when you were a starry eyed idealistic law student.

As for my 'unkindness' to Chris, I see it quite the other way around.

>You would.

Having said that, you're right that it's probably useless talking with him. I've got a problem with that, I know. But that hardly gets him off the hook.

>What freaking hook? Yours?

He's an asshole as is anyone who'll lie to your face just to see you lose it.

>And you are an asshole for treating people like shit whether they deserve it or not. You are not the angel of vengence. You are a man.
Know your role. Do you think it makes any difference what makes an asshole an asshole to the ones who are being lied to or treated like shit?

Do I lose it? Yeah. So what?

>No farting in the house, that's what. It stinks. You can do better. Refine, regenerate and renew yourself. Grow and change while keeping your beliefs and ideals intact. You can do it and you know it's the way to your own future. Forget it was me who told you. I would hate to think that because Sandy told you this you blocked it out. Take care.

Your brother,
Sandy

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 15:26:57 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hm, let's talk about this
Message:
hi jim i don't have lots of time today but a brief reply. i was saying that you didn't sound just curious....that, as you say, you do have an already formed opinion of the premie belief system (generally, i do also by the way). so, the use of the expression or expressions like...'i'm just curious' are probably not true...more like a come on for further discourse, logical wrangling etc.

your examples of tennis and the legal enviornment are well spoken and reinforces my main point...generally, i think, the legal courtroom situation should be the last resort, not the first resort. we go to a judge/jury if all other remedies are exhusted (well, probably that is idealistic, but my ideal anyways). so in a civilized culture i hope that sincerely attempts are made before going to court...and it is the nature of those sincere attempts that i was discussing.

i am not thinned skinned nor do iNEED a gentle environment..but i do prefer one...i can mix it up if need be . but i prefer the more sensitive environments and aspects of covnersatin/dialogue.

and i am practical about my philosophy...i think it is more useful and constructive...more effective ultimately towards bridging differences and building consensus....towards discovering any common ground. name calling, shouting, judging, etc do not have the effect of reaching the listener. generally they close down, become defensive and then not much is shared, really communicated...like shouting across a great divide.

now, that is not bad in and of itself. if one is satisfied with shouting ideas and beliefs from one side to the other...like in tennis for example then hit it hard and score the points. but if some other end result is desired then a different (and i believe) more effective stratege must be used.

so, i do believe that real dialogue requires trust building, some mutual respect and the guidelines i mentioned in my previous post. just stating and re-stating our different points of view does not require those guidelines my observations is that you generally use the tactics of a courtroom, are hard hitting, often use insult and name calling, derision to stidently put your point of view across. that is my observation over these past few months. not bad...i do not judge it as bad, believe me. but you do not come across as a casually curious disinterested conversationalist.

so when you say this is a discussion board...how can we have effective discussion...and is that your goal in particiating in this forum?
one does not generally go to court for discussion and the tactics of the courtroom do not generally lend themselves to meaningful discussion.

on the subject of commenting on your conversation with cd...jim, you do not need to use the forum to get my approval, to use the forum as a jury in a dispute about whether or not cd understands, is truthful or whatever...it feels to me that that is your intention with your original question and request that we comment on 'who is right'. cd sounds to me like a premie with a pretty closed belief system and your strategy in 'communicating' with him/her apprears to me to only drive him/her deeper into the shell of that belief system. and being the intellegent person that you are, i imagine that you know that and therefore have little further intention then that re cd.

but, then i for one ignore cd, passing through and others because it take two hands to clap and generally i am not interested in making music or sounds with them.

so, i do know what i am trying to say...in case yur question in the seconde to last line was sincere. and if i am not making myself clear please ask further clarifying questions. i am not trying to make myself believed nor believable...but understood would be nice.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:25:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Re: Hm, let's talk about this
Message:
hi jim i don't have lots of time today but a brief reply. i was saying that you didn't sound just curious....that, as you say, you do have an already formed opinion of the premie belief system (generally, i do also by the way). so, the use of the expression or expressions like...'i'm just curious' are probably not true...more like a come on for further discourse, logical wrangling etc.

Mike, might I say 'big deal' on this one? I mean, I'm talking to them, you're not. Surely it's no big deal if I soften the argument a bit now and then with a little rhetorical posturing?

your examples of tennis and the legal enviornment are well spoken and reinforces my main point...generally, i think, the legal courtroom situation should be the last resort, not the first resort. we go to a judge/jury if all other remedies are exhusted (well, probably that is idealistic, but my ideal anyways). so in a civilized culture i hope that sincerely attempts are made before going to court...and it is the nature of those sincere attempts that i was discussing.

Your'e missing my point. I wasn't talking about if and when we need to resort to litigation. Rather, I was saying that, once you're there, things proceed smoothly because everyone's forced to be rational. It's a rational process.

i am not thinned skinned nor do iNEED a gentle environment..but i do prefer one...i can mix it up if need be . but i prefer the more sensitive environments and aspects of covnersatin/dialogue.

I, too, enjoy a nice, civil conversation. People who know me know that's true. We're no different on that score, I'd imagine.

and i am practical about my philosophy...i think it is more useful and constructive...more effective ultimately towards bridging differences and building consensus....towards discovering any common ground. name calling, shouting, judging, etc do not have the effect of reaching the listener. generally they close down, become defensive and then not much is shared, really communicated...like shouting across a great divide.

No, here's where we disagree. Look, if al you want is civility as a goal in itself, you're right. But if you want, as you say, to 'bridge differences' and 'build consensuses' you have to confront or somehow resolve differences (unless they're trivial, of course). You know one thing that made me start posting again, sooner than I wanted to? I didn't like what I saw as some sort of fake 'bridge-building' that was happening with premies, David Andersen in particular. I saw his agenda as being to establish this fake front of mutual respect with exes. The premies know they can't really defend their cult on the facts so their best ambition has to be to walk out of the room thinking that we somehow accept that they're intelligent, reasonable people, living intelligent, reasonable lives. That's all Andersen wants from us and, it appeared, we were somewhat giving it to him. And how? By allowing him to set the agenda vis-a-vis 'respectful dialogue' and all that. (Not everyone, of course. Exes who did argue with him brushed his arm-over-the-shoulder aside, nicely but firmly.) I was worried that, in the wake of our big internal conflict, we'd somehow accepted that civility trumps truth or reason, as the bottom line. The fact is, even the civility offered in these circumstances, when it's a substitute for clear, unabashed argument, isn't all that civil. Andersen, for example, was more than happy to dismiss all we say as just the moaning of disgruntled lovers.

But, to me, you argue the points fairly. If you other person starts cheating, you call them on it. If they cheat more you keep calling them on it. If you lose your patience in the process, you let them know. Anything short of that just plays into their hands. Premies aren't looking for any 'consensus' with us other than the one I just mentioned, the consensus that we're all reasonable people. I think condeding that is giving away the store. There's nothing reasonable about being a premie and no, this is not a matter where fair minds can disagree.

now, that is not bad in and of itself. if one is satisfied with shouting ideas and beliefs from one side to the other...like in tennis for example then hit it hard and score the points. but if some other end result is desired then a different (and i believe) more effective stratege must be used.

Hell, Mike, you don't even engage with these guys. Is that your 'more effective strategy' to make your point(s) heard and undertsood? Is that 'trust building' in action?

so, i do believe that real dialogue requires trust building, some mutual respect and the guidelines i mentioned in my previous post. just stating and re-stating our different points of view does not require those guidelines my observations is that you generally use the tactics of a courtroom, are hard hitting, often use insult and name calling, derision to stidently put your point of view across. that is my observation over these past few months. not bad...i do not judge it as bad, believe me. but you do not come across as a casually curious disinterested conversationalist.

Why are you harping on this? Are you suggesting that I have misrepresented myself, where I'm at, and all that in any serious way to anyone here? A little throwaway line like 'I'm curious' and you're going to town with that like ... what? What was it you were saying about 'nitpicking' before?

But, again, Mike, you aren't even playing the game! That's how much faith you have in any attempt to reason with these guys. Yet you can tell me how it should be played? I don't know, Mike. Looks a little sketchy to me.

Look at what happened with Suchabana (hope you don't mind me using you as an example like this, Such). He used to diss me intensely for essentially what you're saying. I wasn't sensitive enough, patient enough, wasn't kind enough and, ultimately wasn't fair enough with premies. Such and I had some pretty heated words about this. But then he stars posting in that loony bin, LG. Such is obviously a peas-loving kind of guy. He's an old hippie for God's sake. But it didn't take long before even he was calling those guys every name in the book. Why? Because, they wilfully, intentionally, at least recklessly, brought no integrity to the table. They lied and abused his sincere efforts to communicate so despicably that he lost it. He still loses it when he goes over there. Can you honestly say that Such didn't exhaust every possible 'bridge building' gesture beforehand?

so when you say this is a discussion board...how can we have effective discussion...and is that your goal in particiating in this forum?
one does not generally go to court for discussion and the tactics of the courtroom do not generally lend themselves to meaningful discussion.

I'm sorry but that last line is bullshit as far as I'm concerned. Ever been to the Court of Appeal? Maybe you should sometime for a lark next time you're in Vancouver. It's in the law courts, the big, open building near Seymour and Robson. Go there someday and sit in on an appeal and then tell me that that isn't a place for meaningful discussion. It most certainly is.

on the subject of commenting on your conversation with cd...jim, you do not need to use the forum to get my approval, to use the forum as a jury in a dispute about whether or not cd understands, is truthful or whatever...it feels to me that that is your intention with your original question and request that we comment on 'who is right'.

No offense but duh! Of course it's my intention. CD and I were talking and he cheated. I had no choice but to just quit talking to him altogether, to try to show him that he was cheating or to get some ad hoc jury to make a line call (thank god for instant replay). What's wrong with that? Nothing as far as I can tell. It's a damn good thing that we can sit in judgment of each other like this. Keeps us honest.

cd sounds to me like a premie with a pretty closed belief system and your strategy in 'communicating' with him/her apprears to me to only drive him/her deeper into the shell of that belief system. and being the intellegent person that you are, i imagine that you know that and therefore have little further intention then that re cd.

My intention with CD is to force him to smell his own poo poo. Now, again, like I said before, if you've got a practical alternative, please, I'm all ears. But if all you've got is some general criticism that this isn't working, don't you see how the onus then shifts to you to show someway better? Go on, Mike, take the matter up with CD! What would you tell him? Asked what Maharaji means when he says he can save premies from the clutches of death, CD's response, again, was:

I don't know THE answer to what is meant by being saved from the 'clutches of death'. Possibly means death can be terrifying and the feeling of peace can be soothing.

Take it from there. I'm sure he'd be happy to discuss it with you. And I, for my part, will be happy to watch.

but, then i for one ignore cd, passing through and others because it take two hands to clap and generally i am not interested in making music or sounds with them.

Yes, well I know.

so, i do know what i am trying to say...in case yur question in the seconde to last line was sincere. and if i am not making myself clear please ask further clarifying questions. i am not trying to make myself believed nor believable...but understood would be nice.

Believable is out of the question, Mike. But understood's underway. :)

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:50:57 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hm, let's talk about this
Message:
no, not civility for its own sake...only discussing tactics here really and generally i do see your posturing most of the time as just that; fainted surprise et al.

my tactic is to basically tell the 'facts' is i see them and saw them and speak from my own experience and let folks judge and listen if they will and can.

you might recall that my only comments to david andersen when he was on was that he was not as close to the scene as i was and was full of shit with his nice guy routine and pretend insider shit.

premies are always gonna cheat then cornered, what choice do they have except to perhaps seriously reconsider their life and situation. not too likely...those that change and move seem to be those who lurk and read our statements of fact and experience...and they report, as you have read, that most of the other stuff they find distracting and off topic for them.

and, believe me, i am not trying to tellyou how to be or do. but don't be surprised at the reactions you get...and your jury already understands the whole cheating thing. i'd rather not see the forum become that part of the show...just personal really.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 17:06:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Okay, already! I heard you the first time!
Message:
:)

Mike, my life would be a whole lot easier if I followed your way. But I've tried and I just can't help talking with them.

I admit it's a problem. Look at the time it's taking. And for what? I dunno. I really don't.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:50:37 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hm, let's talk about this
Message:
no, not civility for its own sake...only discussing tactics here really and generally i do see your posturing most of the time as just that; fainted surprise et al.

my tactic is to basically tell the 'facts' is i see them and saw them and speak from my own experience and let folks judge and listen if they will and can.

you might recall that my only comments to david andersen when he was on was that he was not as close to the scene as i was and was full of shit with his nice guy routine and pretend insider shit.

premies are always gonna cheat then cornered, what choice do they have except to perhaps seriously reconsider their life and situation. not too likely...those that change and move seem to be those who lurk and read our statements of fact and experience...and they report, as you have read, that most of the other stuff they find distracting and off topic for them.

and, believe me, i am not trying to tellyou how to be or do. but don't be surprised at the reactions you get...and your jury already understands the whole cheating thing. i'd rather not see the forum become that part of the show...just personal really.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 16:50:20 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hm, let's talk about this
Message:
no, not civility for its own sake...only discussing tactics here really and generally i do see your posturing most of the time as just that; fainted surprise et al.

my tactic is to basically tell the 'facts' is i see them and saw them and speak from my own experience and let folks judge and listen if they will and can.

you might recall that my only comments to david andersen when he was on was that he was not as close to the scene as i was and was full of shit with his nice guy routine and pretend insider shit.

premies are always gonna cheat then cornered, what choice do they have except to perhaps seriously reconsider their life and situation. not too likely...those that change and move seem to be those who lurk and read our statements of fact and experience...and they report, as you have read, that most of the other stuff they find distracting and off topic for them.

and, believe me, i am not trying to tellyou how to be or do. but don't be surprised at the reactions you get...and your jury already understands the whole cheating thing. i'd rather not see the forum become that part of the show...just personal really.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 02:08:34 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Addendum -- just reread your post
Message:
I'd say 'entirely' misinterpreting is a bit over the top. But hey, are we splitting hairs tonight? It's hard enough to talk to premies, let alone split hairs with them.

:P ==f

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:18:40 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: CD's tap-dancing & being deliberately thick. [nt]
Message:
yowza
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:00:21 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: CD was right Jim, you've COMPLETELY twist
Message:
ed what he said

Fucking sad, I spend months away from all this not thinking about it all for a moment, to come back to this, this, .....

Thank god I don't have to spend a moment of my life with one premie ever again, it's unbelievable how unbelievable they are, and how very VERY sad.

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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:05:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Isn't it something?
Message:
Shameless, isn't it? CD lvoes it too. He's like one of these jerks you hear about who likes to fart in crowded elevators. He'll look around, smile a bit. That's CD!
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Date: Sat, Aug 04, 2001 at 00:14:26 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I worked with people with ld's for six years
Message:
people who are supposedly the least intelligent people in the world, but not once can I remember a comment as brainless as that and any number of others I've seen in the last few days.

I'd like to think it was some shameless ploy to drive us all away with their sheer unbelieveability and banality, I mean who in their right minds would want to waste a moment of their life on them, but I suspect they are just so removed from reality they have no idea how stupid they look

ha ha ha, little do they know about ANYTHING, so it would appear

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:19:05 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: I'll take the clutches of death
Message:
I'll take the clutches of death, any day, in preference to Maharaji 'saving me'. Death's not so bad. If it's a Jim type death and leads to oblivion and no consciousness, what's so bad about that?

And if we drift off to some other place where we're met by those who've passed on before us - that's OK.

I've watched two people die and they were both very peaceful and relaxed. They just 'shut down' as the body slowly switched itself off, bit by bit.

CD will have to have his own opinion on what Maharaji means but since Maharaji always tries to instill in people a fear of death, I can see that Maharaji's trying to make out to be the saviour and giver of eternal life.

Maybe premies, when they die, are greeted by an entity dressed as Maharaji who takes them to another place. Just as Christians are greeted by a Jesus type person. In Maharaji's tiny little world, he has set himself up as God. So maybe premies drift off to a premie heaven where the little god will strut around and they'll all sing arti to him forever.

No, give me the clutches of death any time.

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:27:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Sorry, Dave, perhaps I wasn't clear enough
Message:
Dave,

I agree with all you say but my question was a simpler one:

Do you think CD's sincere when he says that I didn't 'at all' properly interpret what he, CD, had said?

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:34:38 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Sorry, Dave, perhaps I wasn't clear enough
Message:
He's sincerely trying to defend Maharaji's words but being somewhat obtuse in the process.
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:53:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Can we talk about this?
Message:
Dave, how do you get 'sincerely'?

Again, I'd said:

CD suggested that maybe he meant that he could make death less scary.

And isn't that exactly what he meant when he said:

[Being saved from the 'clutches of death]possibly means death can be terrifying and the feeling of peace can be soothing.

My point is that CD's full of shit when he says that I'm not interpreting him correctly at all. As far as I can tell, there was nothing to interpret, it was so simple. Don't you see? Giving someone a soothing feeling of peace in the face of an otherwise terrifying death is indeed making death less scary. It's all the same thing, for God's sake. No?

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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 22:58:54 (EDT)
From: Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Yes
Message:
Yes, you were interpreting him correctly. We finally got there, didn't we.
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Date: Fri, Aug 03, 2001 at 23:03:38 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Thanks, Dave [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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