Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Aug 11, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Jethro -:- Found this while cruising -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 03:20:21 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- A parallel Latvian conference! + cult defined: -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 13:39:49 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Was this conference a 'Latvian Do'? -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 12:15:16 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- dog eating grass may barf [nt] -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 13:42:14 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Read it again -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 12:29:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- So Ron Geaves knows what a cult is? -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 16:24:29 (EDT)
__ Barry -:- Found this while cruising! -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:28:50 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Barry, what are you doing this for? -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:37:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Sorry Jim! Just bored I guess. -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 14:29:37 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Found this while cruising! -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 05:35:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Superman -:- Re: Found this while cruising! -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 14:31:26 (EDT)

Sandy -:- Carl's and Prem's Amazing Adventure -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 01:49:06 (EDT)
__ Carl Spackler -:- 'Caddyshack' Carl FINALLY Speaks Out!! -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 12:20:22 (EDT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Re: 'Caddyshack' Carl FINALLY Speaks Out!! -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 23:56:29 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- I have heard m say -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 02:43:08 (EDT)

BeenThereDoneThat -:- Could It be for -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 00:13:55 (EDT)

Abi -:- Att: Elan Vital -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:17:10 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- EV+Linda G. commited a legal no-no -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 13:27:58 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- What can I do to help you? -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 00:39:15 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- thanks -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 00:48:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Let me help -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 01:01:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- 60 mins -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 03:58:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Forwarded this to Combat -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:30:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Forwarded this to Combat -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:45:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- This won't go the trash, believe me -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:59:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: This won't go the trash, believe me -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 05:09:27 (EDT)

Dermot -:- Aaaaaaaaaghhhhhhhhhh LG -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:43:19 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Aaaaaaaaaghhhhhhhhhh LG -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:44:10 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- I hear ya' -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:19:53 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- It helps to remove LG from your bookmarks -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 03:24:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ SC -:- Or he is utterly, totally brilliant Pat.... -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:30:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Ye stole my head - cn we be twins? -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 11:47:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Can we be twins? We are! -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 13:08:46 (EDT)

Joe -:- Linda Gross Misleads -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:27:29 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- Re: Linda Gross Misleads -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:41:15 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Keep your temper -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 05:03:11 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Is this the 'proper answer' to the Combat review? -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:38:30 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- yes. they might sue me -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 05:00:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- No, no, not in a million years! -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:43:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dropout -:- Re: No, no, -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 11:05:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do you have a name? -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 11:25:31 (EDT)
__ DERMOT -:- Katies post on LG is spot on NT -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:01:10 (EDT)
__ Bobo -:- trow a bone -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:08:05 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- What are they suing FOR? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:18:01 (EDT)
__ such -:- Saving Face, Window-dressing -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:32:25 (EDT)
__ __ Bobo -:- Blackmail ? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:15:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- during holi family breakup -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:25:47 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Linda Gross Misleads -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:25:30 (EDT)
__ dv -:- DUO? What the fuck? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:09:35 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- I think DUO is EV in India nt -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:28:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Little Mo -:- Re: I think DUO is EV in India nt -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:38:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks and.. -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:42:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Little Mo -:- AND.... -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:49:49 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- Get your facts straight Joe -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 18:49:25 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Bjorn, You Are Truly Stupid... -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:57:10 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Bjorn, you are very strange. -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:24:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Re: Bjorn, you are very strange. -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:57:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- strange?? Bjorn, you're stranger than fiction. -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:01:21 (EDT)
Block THIS! -:- And the expremies DECIEVE -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 18:35:21 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- sue ME nt -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:58:33 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Elan Vital is Reprehensible -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:34:57 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- tell 'em, bro! -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:41:06 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- And is it ethical? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:45:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E -:- What is ethical? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:32:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: What is ethical? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:49:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Come on Joe? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:02:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bjorn, please do not move into my neighborhood -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:25:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Re: And is it ethical? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:54:03 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- MAHA is the DECEPTIVE one, IDIOT [nt] -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:28:34 (EDT)
__ annie -:- Re: And the expremies DECIEVE -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:28:29 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- It's a question of who you believe -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:25:49 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Some questions for you -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 18:51:08 (EDT)
__ __ Bjørn E -:- Some questions for John -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:34:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: Some questions for John -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 06:59:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Thanks Janet for trying to reply -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 07:59:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ David -:- A question for Bjørn -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:27:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bjrøn E -:- Reply David -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:32:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- 'Her urge to tell facts' -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:07:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Bjorn, You are a Stupid Fuck! -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:04:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- At least I am not a PAM (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 08:25:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Go to HELL BJORN, you Troublemaker -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:51:38 (EDT)

BeenThereDoneThat -:- Thank You -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:16:19 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Best wishes to you, BTDT -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:22:40 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- Totally OT - something pretty for fun -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:11:12 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Thanks Pat, really beautiful link [nt] -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:34:01 (EDT)

Richard -:- Civil suit against Jagdeo!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 14:59:04 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- A few points -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:34:59 (EDT)
__ BeenThereDoneThat -:- Re: Civil suit against Jagdeo!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:26:44 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- no, I'm not OK -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:07:40 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: Civil suit against Jagdeo!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:25:47 (EDT)
__ __ Bjørn E -:- Re: Civil suit against Jagdeo!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:45:47 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Huh? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:27:04 (EDT)
__ Hey..dipwad... -:- try reading -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:50:04 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- DUO and EV are the same thing you nerd. -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:08:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- What does 'CYA ' stand for? (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:11:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Cover your arse (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:18:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Cover Your Ass (US)nt -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:50:38 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- Hey dipwad is... -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 16:20:10 (EDT)
__ Richard -:- Just read the rest of it -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:06:12 (EDT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- Yes, it is outrageous!! nt -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:39:32 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- But did you see the slap ... -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:02:35 (EDT)
__ __ Timmi -:- Re: But did you see the slap ... -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:06:24 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- See what I mean? [nt] -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:40:43 (EDT)
__ __ Joey -:- At least we're learning what cults are all about -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 16:41:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- ps: correction -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:07:36 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- What I don't understand -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:48:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Get real Way -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:05:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ dv -:- Yes, but as the plot thickens, this becomes -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:25:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Right. -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:22:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ fatty boom batty -:- YOU ADMIT -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:29:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ dippity do and tyler two -:- Re: Right. -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:25:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ David -:- Hey Mr McGruff -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:47:57 (EDT)

gerry -:- Importing the swami ***BEST OF*** -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:43:56 (EDT)

gerry -:- The Virtual Guru -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:29:01 (EDT)

Dermot -:- Parting shot:)Brit TV tonght -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:08:15 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- 9PM BBC2 NT -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:11:37 (EDT)

kap -:- now some will listen -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 09:49:50 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Kap, do this right or not at all -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:47:25 (EDT)
__ Test -:- - ) - ) - ) - ) : | :| -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:59:41 (EDT)
__ salam -:- sure -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:04:37 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- kap, sign me up -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:30:52 (EDT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: now some will listen -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 10:17:30 (EDT)

Salam -:- da'lil swami -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 05:32:20 (EDT)

Disculta -:- Dear children of God (revised) -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 04:28:22 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- he also said in that -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 01:04:13 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: Dear children of God (revised) -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:22:01 (EDT)
__ Salam -:- Re: Dear children of God (revised) -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 05:44:48 (EDT)

BeenThereDoneThat -:- Any ex-Indian premies? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 02:30:30 (EDT)
__ Steve -:- Methods -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:14:30 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Beentheredonethat got the t-shirt -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 14:19:18 (EDT)
__ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: Any ex-Indian premies? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:34:56 (EDT)
__ __ donner -:- Re: Any ex-Indian premies? -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:30:14 (EDT)
__ such -:- A: Dr. David Lane did experiments -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 02:51:59 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Techs without Massa -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 02:58:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ donner -:- well said, nt -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:32:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: Techs without Massa -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:42:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: Techs without Massa -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 10:01:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: Techs without Massa -:- Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 08:22:30 (EDT)

Dermot -:- Like the Chinese cultural Revolutions -:- Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 22:31:07 (EDT)
__ wolfie -:- Re: Like the Chinese cultural Revolutions -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 10:38:06 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Hi Wolfie, great to hear ya, as usual NT -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 13:31:25 (EDT)
__ don puerco -:- Re: Like the Chinese cultural Revolutions -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 07:17:01 (EDT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Sympathy for the Devil ? :D :D :D [nt] -:- Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:35:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mr D -:- Or do they? -:- Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 09:24:56 (BST)


Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 03:20:21 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Found this while cruising
Message:
http://www.cesnur.org/conferences/riga2000/chryssides.htm
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 13:39:49 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: A parallel Latvian conference! + cult defined:
Message:
Psychological definitions relate to the alleged psychological hold that NRM leaders or their organizations have on enquirers and members. Saliba quotes Philip Cushman, who defines the characteristics of a ‘cult’ as follows. [It]

is controlled by a charismatic leader who is thought to be God or some one who carries an exclusive message from God that elevates him or her above others;

fosters the idea that there is only one correct belief and only one correct practice of that belief;

demands unquestionable loyalty and complete obedience to its restrictive ideas, rules, and totalistic methods;

uses methods of mind control;

uses deception and deceit when recruiting and interacting with the outside world;

systematically exploits a member’s labor and finances; attacks and/or abandons members who disagree with or leave the group. (in Saliba, 1995, p.5.)

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 12:15:16 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Was this conference a 'Latvian Do'?
Message:
Riga's a fine place to hold such a conference as Latvians seem to want to believe anything. For instance, did you know that if your dog eats grass, it's going to rain?

John the believer

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 13:42:14 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: dog eating grass may barf [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 12:29:51 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Read it again
Message:
I suggest you look in the notes towards the end of the article to see who the author gives thanks to.
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 16:24:29 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: So Ron Geaves knows what a cult is?
Message:
Jethro,

I didn't get that far when reading the article, although I did glance through the bibliography. So Chryssides must know that Ron is involved in a NRM (unless he's an ex?), so does EV fit Chryssides' criteria?

John.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:28:50 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Found this while cruising!
Message:
http://www.liquid-latex.com/prod08.htm
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:37:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Barry, what are you doing this for?
Message:
Barry,

Why are you posting this shit here? Are you just trying to harrass people? That's really cool. I'm SOOO glad I showed you the site. Yeah, right.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 14:29:37 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry Jim! Just bored I guess.
Message:
I guess I was getting tired of not really knowing whats going on here anymore etc..I'm going to anything goes for a while. i'll try not to make you feel dumb for showing me this very serious forum anymore.
Just bored..you know?
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 05:35:09 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Barry
Subject: Re: Found this while cruising!
Message:
Anyone who can maintain a hard-on for ten minutes while it's stuck into a cold, wet goo while they're standing on their head in the shower deserves the title of 'Superman'.
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 14:31:26 (EDT)
From: Superman
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Found this while cruising!
Message:
and its a good 9 if not more friend!
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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 01:49:06 (EDT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Carl's and Prem's Amazing Adventure
Message:
'So I Take out the Driver and give it to the Guru..and
He CRACKS one..Bout 5,000 yards into The Bottom of a Glacier...Big Hitter the
Guru..and he says to me..Not even a Leaf moves on a Tree without My Wish....Quite
Impressive..
Well By the 7th hole he's developed this wicked slice...maybe a few to many
cognacs..and he starting swearing in between puffs of a cigarette. ...well i think hes
swearing at me...slurring invectives I think they call it....telling me im almost as bad as
those Fuckers Dettmers and Donner..and stuff like that.....Im thinking....This guy is kinda
strange for being the all powerful Lord of the Universe but Im just glad Im not these
Dettmers Donner Cats...

So We get to the 18th Green and I see the Gurus about to Stiff Me...So I say to
him..Hey...Guru..How bout...you know....a little something for the Effort??...And HE says
to Me..Oh...there will be No Money...but on your Deathbed...You will Receive TOTAL
Consciousness...So I got THAT going for me...Which is Nice.' -Carl Spackler

So, if not even leaves move without Maharaji's wish, then how much more would he be aware of the thoughts and deeds of his mahatmas? And if that is so, then it is not a question of if he got the message from Randy or Judy or anyone. He claims to not only know everything, but be in control of everything as well. And if that is so, then what in God's Name was he thinking about while Jagdeo was doing his dirty deeds unattended and unstopped by his omnipotent, omnisicent Master? That is the question? By his own words he claims to know and control everything. So letting the world go to hell in a handbasket is perhaps part of the plan, but to allow premie children to be hurt by his own emissaries, now what's up with that?

Does not compute in head or heart, separate or in tandem. Tilt.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 12:20:22 (EDT)
From: Carl Spackler
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: 'Caddyshack' Carl FINALLY Speaks Out!!
Message:
Please If You're Gonna Quote Me....Dont take me outta Context...even if we Was Smokin some Bluegrass/Sensimilla together...

'Its Me..Carl...You know me as the Assistant Groundskeeper At Bushwood
Country Club...Made famous in the Movie 'Caddyshack'.

Well...I was talking to some Premies the Other day...Strange people...those premies...and someone pulled out some Sensimilla/Bluegrass and we was smokin the Begeezus out of it...When the Subject of The GURU came up..

Well...I had to tell them that in the old days when I was a Loopa....a Caddie...I was traveling through the Himalyas and took a job at this course..I told them I was a Pro Loopa...and Who do ya think they Gave Me to Loop For?.....Yep..The Guru...Maharaj JI.Himself.....Fat Stomache..Flowing Robes..Full of Grace..The whole Nine Yards...

Quite Impressive... And The Guru Turns to Me and Says..Hey..You...Did you know that if Guru Maharaji just Started to close the Door on you...Just the SUCTION of That Door Would Be SO Powerful..Just The SUCTION that you Wouldn't Know what HIT you..

Im Thinkin to Myself does this guy ALWAYS Talk about himself in the
Third Person?..Seems a Little...full of himself..Probably NOT gonna Be A Big Tipper ...But what The Hell...I Got a Job to Do...So I Take out the Driver and give it to the Guru..and He CRACKS one..Bout 5,000 yards into The Bottom of a Glacier...Big Hitter the Guru..and he says to me..Not even a Leaf moves on a Tree without My Wish....Quite Impressive.. Well By the 7th hole he's developed this wicked slice...maybe a few to many cognacs..and he starting swearing in between puffs of a cigarette. ...well i think hes swearing at me...slurring invectives I think they call it....telling me im almost as bad as those Fuckers Dettmers and Donner..and stuff like that.....Im thinking....This guy is kinda strange for being the ALL POWERFUL LORD OF THE UNIVERSE..... but Im just glad Im not these Dettmers...Donner Cats...

So We get to the 18th Green and I see the Gurus about to Stiff Me...So I say to him..Hey...Guru..How bout...you know....a little something for the Effort??...And HE says to Me..Oh...there will be No Money...but on your Deathbed...You will FINALLY Realize Knowledge...So I got THAT going for me...Which is Nice...

So I Tell this story to the premies...in between tokes of the
Bluegrass/Sensimilla...and They're BLOWN Away...Start Talking about
the GRACE of The MAster...and How LUcky I Was To Have
DARSHAN..and all This Stuff...Totally Ignoring that their Lord was A
Drunken Stiff who Couldnt break 100 even though hes got all the leaves in the Universe under his control...and i think to Myself..Carl you are one LUCKY Cat...Not to be in this Cult, Man...Anyway...I got Bigger Gophers to Fry...Nice talking with You...'
CArl Spackler..HEAD Groundskeeper, Bushwood Country Club

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 23:56:29 (EDT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Carl Spackler
Subject: Re: 'Caddyshack' Carl FINALLY Speaks Out!!
Message:
Hi Carl,

Sorry if I offended you in any way. I just wanted to point out the interactions between you and Maharaji in relationship to what else is going on...I don't think I warped your message, and that was certainly not my motive. But I will respect your wishes regarding any future times I may quote you.

In the presence, spirit and love of God Most High (hey now!),

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 02:43:08 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I have heard m say
Message:
we should listed to all his mahatmas/coordinators/staff as they were him. He said this in answer to premies who use to complain about DLM/EV.

I.e. agya.

In my book he is resposible for their actions.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 00:13:55 (EDT)
From: BeenThereDoneThat
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Could It be for
Message:
Could Linda Gross' letter be to hand out at the Hindi only event this weekend with Maharaji?
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:17:10 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Att: Elan Vital
Message:
Dear EV,
I would appreciate it if you had the decency to contact my lawyer and inform him that private negotiations are now a matter of public record. I shall ask him if I should now make public every move you have made.

Where do you get your information about 60 mins from? Why do you think I have negotiated with Combat?

I have not spurned your offer of therapy. I am still waiting for you to actually do something.

Will you pay for me to see a therapist or not?

Will anyone in Elan Vital ever say sorry?

What are you going to do now? Sue me?

Or are you going to sue Jagdeo? I get confused.

Will you even contact me? Will Ms Gross even reply to my letter?

Abi

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 13:27:58 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: EV+Linda G. commited a legal no-no
Message:
publishing private negotiations between attorneys: that's what the legal profession terms 'snake attorney' tactics. [And I used to think Linda G. was better than that -- sheesh! She stoops to conquer...]

lotsa Peace and lentils to you, Abi,

da lil' swami

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 00:39:15 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: What can I do to help you?
Message:
Abi, your situation causes me so much grief sometimes. I worry for you and feel helpless while this shit is going on.

What can I do to help you? It would easier for me to do something than stand by and watch this shit unfold.

In a post the other day to Barry, I said that we are doing a lot of homework for EV, meanwhile they are using their resources to counter attack. This confirms my statement.

I know it's up to you, but I'd stay far away from Bjorn.

Deborah

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 00:48:27 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: thanks
Message:
Thanks, but I don't really think that there is anything much you can do.

I have no idea what they are capable of really or how far they'll go.

It's depressing. I'm so fed up with it all. I'm sure they'd be happy if I just died.

Just wish that my parents had never gotten involved in Divine Light Mission. Life would have been better for all of us and I'm sure my brother would still be alive.

abi

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 01:01:03 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Let me help
Message:
There are not the only one's who can go far with this. I truly believe it is just a smoke screen.

Please email me. I want to discuss this further with you. It's 10:00 and the computer lab is closing so I won't answer you tonight.

Let me help. I'm pissed at them for doing this shit, and I don't have the same emotional attachment or buttons to push. But I do have some holy breath I would like to return to the BigHead and believe me he will get it.

I'll answer your email tomorrow. Try and take it easy meanwhile.

Stay away from the voltures at LG, Bjorn, etc. They will get their concepts blown real soon.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 03:58:47 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: 60 mins
Message:
Thanks.

I just spoke to a producer at 60 min and he doesn't know what EV are talking about. So I'm not sure why EV think that I have been negotiating with 60 min.

As for Combat.. more lies.

But I am now very tempted to blab about the whole sordid thing. Talk about being provoked!

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:30:28 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Forwarded this to Combat
Message:
Hi Abi,

I'm with you !!!

I've just discovered the whole issue this morning, and forwarded this to Combat.

Of course EV's trying to cover their ass, this is so transparent.

But the way they're treating the victims is too much, this is a scandal.

Does Linda Gross really believe all the crap she signed ?

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:45:34 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Forwarded this to Combat
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

if Combat want to sue Elan Vital for misrepresenting them about this then it goes without saying that they have my full support.

I imagine that Ms Gross has been deliberately lied to. I have e-mails to prove that EV are lying.

They are revolting. I'd have enough.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:59:01 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: This won't go the trash, believe me
Message:
How could they think this is an appropriate way to answer such crimes ?

They're making their case worse every move they take.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 05:09:27 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: This won't go the trash, believe me
Message:
How could they think this is an appropriate way to answer such crimes ?

They're making their case worse every move they take.


---

The answer to your question is that they are in a cult and can't see beyond their dissonence.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:43:19 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Aaaaaaaaaghhhhhhhhhh LG
Message:
I'm never ever going to look at it again.I know for a fact most premies in real life are not like some of those there. Most premies I know anyway are decent people just (IMO) deluded by Rawat. Reading LG is bad for ones health.

Why the fuck I ever bothered to post there I don't know.Stupid. I get so frustrated there I can barely spell right, think straight or anything. It's just a huge wind-up.

I think one good thing to come out of this civil action crap is to make us exes despise the silky smooth cynicism of Elan Vital even more than we did before.

My theory is that the decent premies are deluded into thinking that EV and Rawat are seperate. We know that his selfish meglomania is at the root of it all.

I sometimes wonder about this forum too. It's great and all but it reminds us of EV and Rawat.
Shit. I need a break. For the millionth time I'm gonna take it.

Dave, how about if you delete any posts I write after this, for the next week.:) Maybe then I'll stop reading too. I can't bear to think about any of this right now hahahahaa.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:44:10 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Aaaaaaaaaghhhhhhhhhh LG
Message:
Dear Dermot,

Yes, the freaks over at LG are the bottom of the barrel of premies.

The premies I knew were much cooler and definitely a compassionate bunch who would never stoop to the low life shenanigans or spout such braindead remarks. They leave no doubt in our minds they are fucked.

You have to remember that their are only about 6 premies, although there and 25 self-deprecating psuedonyms, (except when news like this Linda Gross shit breaks, then they acquire 4 or 5 new psuedonyms each) to inflate their inferior representation.

Well up until today, they said we were lying, today they are rejoicing because they THINK EV is doing something about it while we just have an agenda to fry Maha. They can't see their own revisionism when it's slapping them in the face. These guys are pathetically wasted human beings, so I support your decision not to talk to them.

LINDA GROSS is also fucked. She submitted stuff in writing and as we know that's an attorney's wet dream. So, let's put our efforts where they belong.

As Donner says, 'We have bigger fish to fry'

..........and the FISH over at LG are already fried. So, let them rot.

I thought you told me you were going to the countryside? Bon Voyage.

Don't worry, this shit will still be here when you get back?

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:19:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: I hear ya'
Message:
Dermot,

For years I asked and wondered what it'd be like if the premies actually got their own on-line discussion pit happening. I had some ideas but I must say I was wrong. I expected that the premies would get into earnest arguments about the fundamental confusion points in the Hamster's (haven't said that in a while!) dogma. You know, the basics.

Now there has indeed been a bit of that there. For example, guys like Carlos of Cosmic Traveller, or that woman, what was her name? Creativejani (not to be confused with Creative Jane who posted here for a bit??) -- these guys still spout out some funny, childish ideas about gurus and the like. Sometimes other premies challenge them. There's a bit of fun in that.

But, for the most part, they're just the ugliest, stupidest bunch of people I've ever seen. Imagine them as a far side cartoon. I sure can.

But then you have to remember, they think 'this world', which must include the internet and all their worldly interactions, is worthless. Unreal. They can act like assholes because, they believe, they're not real anyway. So long as they can keep going back to their imaginary friend inside, they can kick and scream here all they like. What difference does it make? This is all bullshit out here. Home is where the heart is.

I mean, doesn't it amaze you to think of some of these assholes meditating and cooing silent whispers of love to Maharaji? It makes no sense because that's how they've split up their lives. Inside, real. Outside, who cares?

So, yeah, I hate them. I hate them all. I hate what they represent. A complete disregard for morality, honesty, courage, reason. Aaarrrrrrgh is right.

As for posting too much, well, Dermot, surely it can't be that hard to stop. Watch me. I'll post nothing at all for the next ten minutes. (At least I'll try).

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 03:24:50 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It helps to remove LG from your bookmarks
Message:
I did that last month and it felt almost as good as getting the sewer fixed, or a rotten tooth pulled or a boil lanced or having any number of nasty things removed from my life.

As Deb says most of them are the scrapings from the bottom of the barrel and are nothing like most ordinary premies. In fact I am convinced that most anonymous premie posters are actually satirical personas such as Pauline Premie created by a devilish conspiracy of expremies trying to make premies look bad.

Of course, apart from CD, CT and Carlos, the other possibility is that they are all creations of David Whitla aka cerise, Marolyn Kintyre, Selena Crumpet etc. and either he is really an ex trying to make fun of premies or he really is stupid.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:30:00 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Or he is utterly, totally brilliant Pat....
Message:
That's 25 different personalities I have breathing on this forum and LG as we speak. Bloody incredible feat I reckon.

Makes Rob's little effort in 98 look real lame don't ya think???

Anyway, I love you for your amzing powers of perception and recognition. I never thought any of you wopuld be that smart. One day I'd love to share a Dom P with you and find out how you recognised me...

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 11:47:30 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Ye stole my head - cn we be twins?
Message:
Dear Pat,

Ye stole mah head! Occasionally I use this one when it suits the post. ~)

But I think we can be twins. You said we were separated at birth!!

Love, F

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 13:08:46 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Can we be twins? We are!
Message:
My favorite is ;) but it doesn't spell PatC.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:27:29 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Linda Gross Misleads
Message:
DUO LAUNCHES CIVIL SUIT AGAINST MAN ACCUSED OF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT BACKGROUND NFORMATION

Conflicting and spurious allegations regarding the alleged incidents of sexual abuse have been posted anonymously on the Internet and EVI is concerned to set the record straight. We make the following points:

Neither alleged victims has ever taken law enforcement or legal action over the alleged childhood incidents.

How does Linda Gross know this? According to Anth and at least one of the victims, they have said publicly that they have reported the incidents to the police.

Both alleged victims claim to have previously notified EVI about the incident. Our inquiry determined that these claims were unfounded.

Linda, this is very misleading, the truth is that neither Randy Prouty nor Judy Osborne can remember whether or not they were told that Jagdeo was molesting little girls in the 70s. This doesn't make the contention that Elan Vital was informed 'unfounded.' Another victim said that her father told Gurucharanand. I have no idea what Charanand says now.

Linda Gross also conveniently ignores the fact that, despite recent reports to Elan Vital of the incidents, and despite their public statements on the internet, Elan Vital for some time claimed on its website that it had received no complaint. That statement has subsequently been removed from the Elan Vital website.

The second alleged victim detailed psychological difficulties encountered as a result of the alleged abuse. Although under no legal obligation to do so, EVI responded immediately with an offer of help, including payment for professional counseling of the person’s choice. This offer was rejected.

While I am impressed that Elan Vital might do something that it isn't legally required to do, I doubt very much that Elan Vital ever believed that the victim would accept this proposal. Besides being too little too late, as both victims have publicly stated, they no longer have faith that Elan Vital is interested in helping the victims. The lastest press releases, and their transparent duplicity is just more proof that Elan Vital's motives are not honorable.

The person then demanded a large amount of cash, public apologies from persons uninvolved with the episode, and, finally, that EVI buy her a house. Later, the person’s attorney told EVI that the organization would have to pay dearly to buy the alleged victim’s silence. We found these actions disconcerting. Subsequently, EVI learned that the person had been simultaneously negotiating with the producers of Australian television’s “Sixty Minutes” to broadcast the story, who apparently turned it down.

I am unaware of what the victim was seeking, but if the allegations are true, this would be small compensation for having been sexually molested by an Elan Vital minister at the age of 6. Who the victim might want to talk to about what happened is irrelevent to Elan Vital's obligation, but it again demonstrates that Elan Vital's motives are really about avoiding bad publicity for Maharaji and not helping the victims of abuse.

The person then began negotiating with the French Communist magazine “Combat Face Au Sida,” which advocates actions based on the recently passed “About-Picard” law. This law, which restricts freedom of thought, conscience and religion in France, has been denounced by the US State Department, members of the United States Congress as well as by civil rights leaders worldwide. According to the Helsinki Federation for Human Rights, the law ” goes against freedom of association, expression, religion and conscience; it imperils the rights of minorities and creates prejudices incompatible with the notion of tolerance intrinsic to human rights.”

Hello? What on earth does French legislation have to do with these sexual molestation allegations against Jagdeo? Do you think there is some kind of conspiracy, Linda. You are sounding more paranoid all the time.

EVI spokesperson, Linda Gross, said that even after DUO had indicated that, to the best of its knowledge, Upadhaya was living in Buxar in the Indian State of Bihar, the alleged victims continued to make false and conflicting claims that DUO was harboring Upadhaya and had not revealed his whereabouts.

Linda fails to mention that reports have circulated that Jagdeo was touring in Africa. Other than this self-serving press release, Elan Vital did nothing to correct any misinformation those sources had. Moreover, Elan Vital continues to fail to mention any attempt to locate Jagdeo, to warn others that he is an accused child molestor, and, again, no mention of any effort to uncover other victims of Jagdeo's molestations, of which there are likely many.

“Any statement that EVI harbored this man, and innuendo that EVI knew of and ignored the allegations of sexual misconduct are flatly false and defamatory. It is just not true,” Ms Gross said.

Exactly what kind of investigation has Ms. Gross performed to give her such certainty?

For more information, please contact Elan Vital Inc.:
Tel: (818) 889 1193 ext. 145
Email: pr@elanvital.org

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:41:15 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Linda Gross Misleads
Message:
Where do I begin with this? Do I have to post e-mails from their lawyer to prove that this is wrong? Or would they sue me if I did that?

Shall have to seek some advice on that.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 05:03:11 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Keep your temper
Message:
They've made their case even worse.

We'll just put all the facts online, and people with brain will see this. Don't worry. This is so transparent.

They're checkmated every move they take. Nobody (beside premies) believe their PR crap.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 04:38:30 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Is this the 'proper answer' to the Combat review?
Message:
I'm appalled by so much stupidity ?
What's going to be their next step ? Sue Jagdeo's victims ?

One thing is for sure: the case will last for years in India, specially given the fact that the crimes happened abroad !! And EV/DUO will claim they're doing something.

This is a tragic farce. I'm really sorry for the victims.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 05:00:53 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: yes. they might sue me
Message:
You are right. They will claim that they are doing something and it will drag on for years and years. In the meantime they will continue to trash me and the other victims and do nothing decent.

I think they also might try and sue me for defamation. I think they have been toying with this idea for a while. They know this will look bad so they have to invent me in a certain way to justify it. So I am demonised for asking for compensation and therapy and they make up all this stuff about the media and pretend that I refused their kind offer... When their lawyer contactd me from Texas I did not have legal representation. Knowing that I had no legal representation they tried to silence me for as little as possible. Once I had a lawyer they went behind my back and got their lawyer to contact my father so that he could pressure me into being silent. It didn't work. But what next?

They are disgusting!

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 09:43:52 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: No, no, not in a million years!
Message:
Abi,

One thing's for sure, the last thing in the world this cult's ever going to do is sue you for anything. Believe me, that just ain't ever going to happen. It drags Maharaji right in as a deposable witness at which point his whole life's subject to cross-examination.
And that's just one of the reasons. No, you are the last person they'd even think of attacking.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 11:05:36 (EDT)
From: Dropout
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: No, no,
Message:
Is this legal advice?

I'm not a lawyer, but how do you know this? And if someone OTHER than Maharaj Ji sues, then how could they depose him? Doesn't that depend on what they sue for? If EV is so duplicitous then they could come up with a lot of reasons to sue people without involving Maharaj Ji, couldn't they?

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 11:25:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dropout
Subject: Do you have a name?
Message:
Tell me who you are and I'll answer your questions. Fair?
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:01:10 (EDT)
From: DERMOT
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Katies post on LG is spot on NT
Message:
zz
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:08:05 (EDT)
From: Bobo
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: trow a bone
Message:
Premies are extremely sensitive to suggestion. This lawsuit looks to me being intended for premies/ asspirants. Any mentioning of Jagdeo or combat by critical voices will now be counteracted by this bogus lawsuit. the press can't hurt them too deep in this weak spot anymore.

But no worry, the weakest spot is still in place. the fat lord of corruption himself!

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:18:01 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: What are they suing FOR?
Message:
Very true. Like Such mentioned, what kind of money do they think they could get out of Jagdeo and what possible good would that do? This was a CIVIL case, only money damages can be awarded, and Elan Vital can't get money from Jagdeo unless the allegations of the victims are true, but Elan Vital is, at the exact same time, taking great effort to drag the motives of the victims through the mud. So, tell me, is this the Twilight Zone, or what?
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:32:25 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Saving Face, Window-dressing
Message:
First, everyone, it's a 'civil' suit, Not 'criminal' trial. means rupees [or maybe a settlement], not prison. But Jagdeo probably has no money, either.

Looks like a grand-standing show. Jagdeo was an agent of DLM/EVI; perhaps Linda G. et al are trying to deflect the org's own negligence, culpability [blame], and shift any potential liability and public fallout/bad publicity away from Elan Vital.

Please notice EV's continued attacks on the victims' reputations, whom EV first tried to discredit, too. Fact: Chicago RC priest rape victims got millions! I mean, what's getting molested, raped -- and as a result being hurt and messed-up emotionally for years -- Worth to YOU, or anybody?! What would be Your Price, besides belated non-existent justice [and no criminal sentence]?!

Also, if the premies who told me knew, and their Denver friends, and the Unity school teachers who reported a Jagdeo 'problem', and DLM ihq officials -- then you-know-who was probably informed, too.

But Jagdeo had heavy-duty influence w/ miragey, especially during and after the holi family breakup. I saw them together many a time during the '70s.

This is face-saving, window-dressing, imho.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:15:42 (EDT)
From: Bobo
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Blackmail ?
Message:
Suddenly occurred to me: Did jagdeo have some secret leverage over rawat? was there a blackmail situation? Was there a link with DLM India? A deal with the holy family?

Any theories?

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:25:47 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Bobo
Subject: during holi family breakup
Message:
+ thereafter, Jagdeo was a close confidante, adviser, and mahatma around m.

r.e. theories: who knows? only m. and jagdeo [maybe a few others, too].

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:25:30 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Linda Gross Misleads
Message:
Who is being sued? What the fuck is going on now? Joe, could you spell this out a little better.

And who the hell is Bjorn? Is he involved? It sounds that way to me.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:09:35 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: DUO? What the fuck?
Message:
So DUO still exists? Is it being used as a corporate shell to limit liability?
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:28:35 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: I think DUO is EV in India nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:38:01 (EDT)
From: Little Mo
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: I think DUO is EV in India nt
Message:
Yup DUO
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:42:44 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Little Mo
Subject: Thanks and..
Message:
Not that the DUO website links to all the Elan Vital websites around the world.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:49:49 (EDT)
From: Little Mo
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: AND....
Message:
No mention of any lawsuit on the site of the agency filing the suit.....maybe it's on 'The Humour Of The Saints' page.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 18:49:25 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Get your facts straight Joe
Message:
Just some comments Joe,

1, Joe, I think Anth is not telling the truth about his 'reporting to the police', or if he did, at least they did not take him seriously. (I once had an argument with anth about his 'reporting' but when I came to the closing arguments, my post was deleted and I was banned from the forum - Anth was the FA). I never heard any victim state they reported the case to the police and if she had, surely EV would have been informed. (assuming the police took the report seriously)

2. Allogations were made that EV was informed is 'unfounded'. If EV would have been informed, both Donners and Dettmers would also have been informed. According to the victims own testimonial her father when he spoke to Charanand was concerned about his daughters dedication towards K & M.

3. Once EV had not received any complaints from the victims they wrote that on the FAQ, when they did get a letter from the victim they removed the information from the FAQ. What is wrong with that?

4. If it is according to your opinion late or not to sue J, they have at least done so. I think it is in everybodys interest to do this.

5. When '60 minutes' rejects to send a program about this, it might be 2 reasons for this: either they find the story of no public interest, or they dont find doubts in the story! But the motives of the victim becomes pretty obvious. Unfortunately I think her lawyer must be very unprofessional.

6. Re J. whereabouts. Get real, Joe, If you consider everything you read at F5 or F6 as the truth, I think you are extremely naive.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:57:10 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Bjorn, You Are Truly Stupid...
Message:
Oh Bjorn,

'Just some comments, Joe'...

Bjorn, you went on a rant last week about all your good work for victims rights.

Now all you are doing is saying really dumb things and blaming on the fact (or lie) that English isn't your first language.

You offered Abi a hundred bucks to help her. Well, if you're so into victims rights, why don't you sell your mountainside home and give her the proceeds?

Bjorn, give it up. You are a confused, simplistic, boring person.

Go away. You have nothing to offer here. Go away.

You don't know diddley squat about this issue. You are ignorant. You follow a cult leader. Pray to your mountain to give you the wisdom to give HIM up!

Whoever you are, go away, you're not making sense.

Incensed,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:24:26 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Bjorn, you are very strange.
Message:
You have one of the strangest viewpoints on things I have ever seen. It's just bizarre and I almost don't know how to respond.

Yes, I believe Anth. I have met him personally and he is an honest person with integrity and I have never heard anyone say otherwise. He is a very well respected individual.

For Linda Gross to say NO ONE at Elan Vital knew about Jagdeo is a pretty broad statement and she hasn't disclosed how she knows this. Who did she ask? What kind of investigation was done, and did they investigate beyond the two incidents?

Elan Vital removed the FAQ when it was pointed out that they had ALREADY been informed of the incidents. Then they removed it.

A lawsuit that is frivilous, that no one intends to pursue, for which there is no evidence, and when, at the very same time, Elan Vital is impuning the integrity of the claimants and witnesses, helps no one, and is nothing more than self-serving window dressing.

All we have is Linda Gross' word about 60 Minutes, but, again, I question Linda as to what this has to do with pursuing Jagdeo, and why she is bringing it up if not to discredit the victims as just after money and publicity. Why is she saying this if her interest is bringing Jagdeo to justice?

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:57:37 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Bjorn, you are very strange.
Message:
Joe English is notr my language, but to me there is a difference in saying; 'Both alleged victims claim to have previously notified EVI about the incident.' which is what Linda Gross is saying and 'For Linda Gross to say NO ONE at Elan Vital knew about Jagdeo is a pretty broad statement' which you say.

It is up to anyone to believe whoever one chooses to believe. I have my doubts about Anths 'reporting', but I think it will be really stupid of Linda Gross to state that noone reported the case to the police. Dont you agree? If he or she in fact had reported the case to the police, dont you think that would be easy to prove???

According to what I could read from this case, Dettmer and one victim contacted EV, and then they removed the FAQ. I think that is fair. I assume that you take Charanand for EV, but believe me instructors and individuals in an organisation are told a lot of things and I imagine they dont take everything seriously. I dont know what happened between Charanand and the father of the victim, neither do you.

I did not expect EV to do what they did, I wrote to one victim and offered her a contribution of 100 dollars to chase Jagdeo. She refused my offer.

I am pleased that EV really did what they did, you are obviously pissed off. I see a pattern of motives from the exes perspective, you see a pattern of motives from the perspective of EV.

If you have not noticed the victim has spoken ind public load and clear about things from her perspective. Accoring to what has happened, it seems that her motives were not to chase J, but to nail M. If someone in public, smeared your name and came with accusations, would you think it was unethical for you to redress your reputation in public??

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:01:21 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: strange?? Bjorn, you're stranger than fiction.
Message:
...Accoring to what has happened, it seems that her motives were not to chase J, but to nail M.

Well if those indeed were her motives, may God bless her. It's m after all, who SHOULD be nailed. Who else?

If someone in public, smeared your name and came with accusations, would you think it was unethical for you to redress your reputation in public??...

Common, smell the fucking coffee for god's sake! M isn't the victim here who's suffered the crime. He's the cult leader who benefitted beyond belief from a belief system and structure that called for surrendering to HIM as the ultimate authority and power. And THAT is WHY we're witnessing this pathetic perversity today.

IT's a cult that in it's root, can only breed corruption.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 18:35:21 (EDT)
From: Block THIS!
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: And the expremies DECIEVE
Message:
What's transparent here are your motives and agenda. You don't give a damn about the victims...all you want is another way to go after Maharaji. They don't deny that something happened to this woman. I notice you don't deny that they made an offer to help, or that this woman was negotiating with 60 Minutes. Was that your advice to her?

geezus christ on a cracker, man, you have defamed them on your webpage alleging that Maharaji is 'harboring a pedophile.' What do you fucking expect? That is so totally false, and I hope they sue the ratfuck out of all of you.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:58:33 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Block THIS!
Subject: sue ME nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:34:57 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Block THIS!
Subject: Elan Vital is Reprehensible
Message:
Hey Block, calm down. Remember holy name or something. Get a grip on yourself. My AGENDA, is that I personally know at least one of Jagdeo's victims, and I respect her enormously. I believe she is telling the truth, and I believe her when she said she told Randy and Judy about Jagdeo in 1977 and I believe her when she said Judy Osborne told here maharaji knew about it way back then. I get outraged when I know from my own experience that Jagdeo was touring for many years after that. I worry about how many others have been molested and maybe still are being molested. That's what I care about. Is that 'Harboring a Pedophile?' Sure sounds like it to me.

But the bottom line for Elan Vital is that at the time Jagdeo molested these kids, he was an minister, and employee of Elan Vital. So, Elan Vital may well have strict liability just like the Catholic Church has liability for priests that molest kids, even though the Pope knew nothing about it.

And that's why Elan Vital is talking out of both sides of its mouth. On the one hand, they want to act like they are doing something with a meaningless and completely ineffective gesture of filing a lawsuit against Jagdeo, a lawsuit they claim they have ZERO proof to support, and that they don't even know where Jagdeo is to get him served.

Then, at the same time, Linda Gross publishes a website atacking the victims of Jagdeo as money-grubbing claimants who just want to get publicity. This is deceitful. This is wrong. This makes me angry.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:41:06 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: tell 'em, bro!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:45:00 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: And is it ethical?
Message:
Is it ethical for Linda Gross to be disclosing discussions between Elan Vital and one of the victims over the internet, when likely the victim thought those discussions were confidential? Is Linda Gross 'DEFAMING' one of the victims, something she is very concerned about lest it be done to Elan Vital? Is the pot black?
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:32:29 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What is ethical?
Message:
For you and me to discuss this when we really dont know the facts, but are just guessing?
For the victim to ask for a big sum of money for her silence??
To smear another persons name in hateful posts on an internetsite?
Or to try to keep up the promise of M to the victims father?

If you have the right to inform your version or belief of what has happened, should not other persons have the right to inform? Or is this only a privelege for you, Joe?

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:49:08 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: What is ethical?
Message:
Bjorn, note that Elan Vital is making these allegations against the victims with no proof. True, they have the right to come here and tell their side of the story about what was discussed, and I look forward to hearing that, although the victim's lawyer may not want this discussed publicly, for obvious reasons.

But again, why is Elan Vital dragging the reputations of the victims through the mud if their motive is only pursuing Jagdeo, especially when it undermines the case against Jagdeo?

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:02:52 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Come on Joe?
Message:
Do you really believe Linda Gross to be so stupid that she would in public would say things that are not true???

Whatever the outcome of the case would be, what has been written by Linda Gross, would not influence the decicion of the court:

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:25:57 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Bjorn, please do not move into my neighborhood
Message:
That would freak me out.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:54:03 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: And is it ethical?
Message:
And is it ethical for Linda Gross, as an attorney for Elan Vital to be posting information about 'psychological problems' of one of the victims?

Also, has Linda Gross lost a screw? One of the victims was negotiating with a magazine (about what is not mentioned) and that magazine is real bad because that magazine is in favor of a law that Elan Vital opposes. What the hell is she talking about and how is this relevent to anything about child sexual abuse by Jagdeo?

Anybody got a clue? Linda?

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:28:34 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Block THIS!
Subject: MAHA is the DECEPTIVE one, IDIOT [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:28:29 (EDT)
From: annie
Email: None
To: Block THIS!
Subject: Re: And the expremies DECIEVE
Message:
'all you want is another way to go after maharaji'..you see not everyone here thinks maharajshit is so full of shit just cause they read it here, I and many others came here because we knew for ourselves that we were being SUCKERED... so no-matter what is written here about maharaji and ev, it doesnt matter really, as i said, we ALREADY KNEW, and just had the bollocks to listen to that REAL KNOWLEDGE inside and get the hell out of that damned cult!!

mmm you must be rather lacking gonads!!!

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:25:49 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Block THIS!
Subject: It's a question of who you believe
Message:
I have been told personally, by one of the victims, that she personally told Randy Prouty that she had been sexually molested by Jagdeo, and she told him in 1977. She also spoke to Judy Osborne about it some time later, and she told this victim that Maharaji already knew about it. I believe this person is telling the truth.

All we have on the other side, is Randy Prouty and Judy Osborne saying they can't remember whether they were told or not. They do NOT say they WEREN'T told. I find it beyond belief that if Randy and Judy knew about it, that Maharaji wouldn't have known as well.

Now we have 'Elan Vital' saying that nobody in Elan Vital knew. But just who did they ask? What investigation did they perform?

Plus, it is beyond hypocrisy for Linda Gross to say that Elan VItal is filing a lawsuit against Jagdeo on behalf of the victims, and then devote an entire page of the Elan Vital website impuning the motives and veracity of those same victims. It's deceiftul that's what it is. Elan Vital is not interested in the victims and never have been. If they were, they would locate Jagdeo and let the authorities know where he is.

By the way, dimwit, if they don't know where Jagdeo is, how do they expect to ever SERVE him with the summons and complaint. The truth is, they don't even plan to serve it, because the only purpose of the lawsuit is a smokescreen to protect the ass of Prem Pal Singh Rawat.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 18:51:08 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Block THIS!
Subject: Some questions for you
Message:
Answer these questions, please.

Since first knowing about Jagdeo (whenever that was) why have EV not made any public attempt to contact any other victims? Surely that would be the first action of an honorable organisation.

Why did EV claim they have investigated the allegations, but had made no attempt to contact either of the women who had reported the assaults?

And why do EV contact the parents of one of the victims (who is a grown woman) regarding this issue?

My agenda is simple and transparent. I can do little for the victims, but if I can do something to bring to light the contributory actions of EV/DLM/Maharaji in this matter, then I will.

John.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:34:54 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Some questions for John
Message:
1. Why did Anth refuse to give the names of the victims to Glen Witacker when he asked?

2. How could EV contact the victims when they did not know their names?

3. If the catholic church or whoever would have some complaints of the behaviour of one priest, how could they make an attempt to contact other victims if they did not get any more complaints?

4, If the victim refuses to communicate, who should EV then contact?

5. Apparently your agenda is transparent. But why are you concerned about EV / DLM / M and not the victims?

Please answer these questions.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 06:59:51 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: Some questions for John
Message:
1. Why did Anth refuse to give the names of the victims to Glen Witacker when he asked?

2. How could EV contact the victims when they did not know their names?

3. If the catholic church or whoever would have some complaints of the behaviour of one priest, how could they make an attempt to contact other victims if they did not get any more complaints?

4, If the victim refuses to communicate, who should EV then contact?

5. Apparently your agenda is transparent. But why are you concerned about EV / DLM / M and not the victims?

Please answer these questions.


---

good questions, all.
and probably the crux of why this disgusting issue is stuck where it stands, to date.
If these sticking points can be courageously and resolutely moved through, and both sides recognize their honest part in creating this situation, then the much voiced objective of bringing this history to its morally right end can be reached.

let me try to give some answers to these questions. O dp this not just for you, Bjørn, but through you, I address one and all whom these questions implicate, every one of whom must face the truth and make right on what has been made wrong.

1. Why did Anth refuse to give the names of the victims to Glen Whittaker when he asked?
>I would say that, most likely, Anth did not trust Glen's motives. Glen would be a person acting in the interests of protecting what Elan Vital had to lose, and would be suspected of using sensitive information, not for the good of the victims, but for the furtherance of the intentions of Elan Vital. Anth was a Unity school teacher and knew these children. He puts their state of well being far above that of anyone at EV, and is taking stringent measures to see that none of these once-children-in-his-care are further harmed, damaged, traumatized or hurt by any actions or negligences committed by EV, as he is of the conviction that the pain the victims have endured already, as a result of DLM/EV's negligence, and Maharaji's, on this, never should have happened and must never happen to anyone again.
In short, Glen Whittaker did not seem one to trust. Better likely parties with fairer, impartial views seemed better. He felt he must wait for a better offer, for the sakes of his confidantes (those victims who made themselves known to him)

2. How could EV contact the victims when they did not know their names?
When you speak of 'EV', here, you need to be clear about which tentacle of EV you are referring to. Do you mean the attorneys protecting maharaji from the law? The PR people protecting Maharaji from damning public awareness ? The program organizers? The financial accountants? The propagation team? The newsletter? The travel bureau? The website authors? The real estate acquisition experts?

Which agenda driven personnel, in what role, are you referring to? Do you see a single department anywhere in EV devoted to anything but getting for or shielding Maharaji? Do you see anything remotely aproaching an office of victim's rights? Internal affairs? Anything at all that provides an equal balance of justice for the devotees, the families of devotees, the children of, for parties harmed or wronged by Maharaji or anyone acting in connection with him???

I never have.
Knowledge supposedly opens our hearts. Which in turn should lead to wanting to do right by all. Which we repeatedly tried to do in the 'begg-'ning, with all our heartfelt efforts to start service oureaches to the world. And which Maharaji unfailingly shut down and forced us to give it all to him, him, him. The Lord Thy God is a jealous god.
In short, there IS no part of EV that can be trusted to advocate for any victim, wronged party, injured or suffering individual or group, inside or outside their walls. In the view of EV and everyone in it, no such exists. In their view, everything is for Maharaji--and in HIS view, everything is for Maharaji.

3. If the catholic church or whoever would have some complaints of the behaviour of one priest, how could they make an attempt to contact other victims if they did not get any more complaints?
>Let's take your example and line it up alongside what's happened here:
Let's say a catholic priest sexually violates children in the church. One tells their parents. Their parents don't catch their meaning. They don't realize what their child is saying. They don't want to. So it goes nowhere. The child has to wait till they grow up into adulthood to make themselves understood and heard. So with or without the parents factored in, the only difference is time elapsed.
So with or without their parents, let's say they do. First they approach the offices in the church. They can't find anyone in the church to listen. They meet with repeated deliberate putoffs. Or denial. Or seeming deafness. Or outright shutting out. So they leave. Or they go public. They tell the media. The church's PR office meets the media with the same attitude of discrediting. Either the victim drops it and gives up, and lives with it as a private hell, or they grow stronger, more determined, and decide to get louder, more insistent, more unavoidable. Perhaps they take out ads in the papers, on radio, on TV. Perhaps they start a group or an organization for such victims. Perhaps they start a newsletter or a magazine. Perhaps they lobby lawmakers for redress in legislation. Perhaps they write a book. And in the age of the internet, perhaps they start a website or a club or a chatroom.
At any point along this timeline, the church could do the right and moral thing, and face the truth, both within and without, by taking the information and investigating the priests and the membership honestly, to determine the perpetrators and the victims, and set their house arights themselves. But since they opt instead to cover it up, to deny, to spin, to protect the wrong individuals, they leave the victims no other way left:
Perhaps the victims have to get a lawyer. Perhaps they have to sue.
EV is this church. The reports about this corrupt, perverted priest have been coming in since 1976. They had their earliest chance to make it right when they first heard. 'Watchers' were assigned to escort jagdeo around in every town he went to. If I heard and knew about this, then others knew. I was no IHQ honcho. I was homeless and a street-common, garden variety premie, and I knew in 1976. If they assigned 'watchers'to him, then they knew, before they sent him out on tour. And they have known 'again', now, since we made it public on the website. They don't need the names from us. They could make an open request on their own website for all such victims to contact a given address or phone or fax or email them. The key is to name a trusted party to handle the matter. Not an in-house EV operative. Not a biased party loyal to one side. Arbitration, or mediation, or conflict resolution specialists, with nothing to gain from the outcome, would be such resources to employ. A kind of escrow of confidence , held on neutral ground, and trustworthy of engagingand abiding by, to control the proceedings.

4, If the victim refuses to communicate, who should EV then contact?
See above.

5. Apparently your agenda is transparent. But why are you concerned about EV / DLM / M and not the victims?
This question should be asked of EV/DLM/M.
But you ask it of us because we are asking it of them. And the answer is in my response to question 1): In the view of EV/DLM/M, it does not exist unless it exists to serve Maharaji, which is the horrible and real world outcome of all those years of his exhorting anyone who listens and becomes spellbound to it, that the purpose of life is to serve the Master. Which is the only thing EV is interested in doing, and the only thing Maharaji is interested in doing. No one in the entire phenomenon is interested in serving the victims, or serving as a watchdog or ombudsman or advocate for any other party who might be adversely affected by Maharaji.

Very much like the church you cited, Maharaji is going to have to be forced into a position where the only way he is going to want the victims to be made right to, is if it makes him look good, and works to his selfish advantage. If it serves him, in other words.
Only then will anyone in EV embrace it, because only then will it fit the category of 'service to Maharaji'.
Doubtless, he will spin some lovely, wafty, cotton brained philosophical 'appreciation' of it, first, and then everyone at EV will suddenly discover it as a new and glistening jewel of understanding, to be ever so reverently implemented in synchronized participation and strictly by the manual, in their ever- evolving enjoyment of life.

Please answer these questions.
I have. But the one who needs to answer them is not here. Go pose these to he who most needs to reckon with them.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 07:59:31 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Thanks Janet for trying to reply
Message:
I cant say that I agree to all of what you are saying, but I will not discuss this furhter.

Anyway I dont approve that Linda Gross makes the comments about the victims. I find that out of line, but I also find the public discussion and accusation of the victims and the exes out of line.

IMO everybody would benefit if they would be able to regard this case with unbiased perspective, with no prejustice and being able not to regard each other as enemies.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:27:39 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Bjørn E
Subject: A question for Bjørn
Message:
Why are you obsessed with this affair? It looks like a very weird and unhealthy obsession to me.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:32:54 (EDT)
From: Bjrøn E
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Reply David
Message:
Everything is relative.
I wrote 5 posts about this case, Jow wrote 10.So why didn't you ask him why he is obsessed about this.

I am obsessed for justice and fairness to happen. Unfortunately I don't think justice will happen, mainly due to the bad advisors of the victims.

But I don't like when someone turnes everything upside down or smears another person name. (AND btw I don't really approve that Linda groos wrote that about the victim, even though I can understand her urge to tell facts.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:07:44 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Bjrøn E
Subject: 'Her urge to tell facts'
Message:
She only has one one urge. To protect Rawat and ensure his followers don't find out that he's been ignoring Abi, Susan and others for years. Whilst simultaneously employing jagdeo to impart his K techniques.

That's all Linda Gross is interested in, NOTHING MORE.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:04:04 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bjrøn E
Subject: Bjorn, You are a Stupid Fuck!
Message:
Go away Bjorn!

Shoo! Shoo! You are an annoying, boring, OCD (obsessive, compulsive disorder) person. You have no intelligence, and if you do you are doubly dumb for posting here.

You offer nothing of value here. I am sick to my stomach at your veiled efforts to dialogue here. Go Away, slime!

Are you in Holy Name? What happened to your campaign for victims rights? Go away, Bjorn, you're stupid and obnoxious!

Have fun, Bjorn, you like to upset people, don't you? You are transparent, and if you are a PAM, you are beyond slime.

EV and Linda Gross, hang your heads IN SHAME!

Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 08:25:42 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: At least I am not a PAM (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:51:38 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Go to HELL BJORN, you Troublemaker
Message:
Fuck you, you never anser questions. Who the fuck do you think you are, you slime bucket.

YOU ARE A DECEPTIVE CREEP LIKE YOUR MASTER.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:16:19 (EDT)
From: BeenThereDoneThat
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Thank You
Message:
Thank you all very much for taking the time to respond to me. You've each done so with a sensitivity that I especially appreciate at this time in my life.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:22:40 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: BeenThereDoneThat
Subject: Best wishes to you, BTDT
Message:
I wish you complete freedom to be true to yourself alone without any interference from anyone including a guru.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:11:12 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Totally OT - something pretty for fun
Message:
Here's a site to keep open in a second window while perusing more serious stuff. Turn up your sound as the music is sweet and have patience for the java applets to download.

If you want to see the next gallery click on Gallery 1 and it'll take you to the next one. There are three galleries.

Also I'm experimenting with hotboards link thingy. Hope it works since there is no review mode for starting a new thread.
[ Shimmering water ]

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:34:01 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Thanks Pat, really beautiful link [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 14:59:04 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Civil suit against Jagdeo!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
WT posted thon LG and I thought it must be a joke but apparently not. Check it out. This could explain why EV was so interested recently in gathering info on allegataions against Jagdeo.
[ Jagdeo ]
[ Graphic Link ]
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:34:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: A few points
Message:
Oh, God, is this weird! Frankly, it's too bizarre to get a handle on. Like, what the fu ...?

First, there's the matter of EV talking out of both sides of its mouth, like Joe said. How can they sue Jagdeo while at the same time diss the complainants' credibility? And how can they sue at all when they have no witnesses? Moreover, what are their damages? This is just crazy. It appears to be nothing but a cheap publicity ploy, something designed to impress naive premies who don't understand the law at all and have no interest in changing that. If Jagdeo's whereabouts are unknown, he can't be served and without witnesses there's nothing anyway.

However, if the complainants themselves join in, EV might rue the day they every started this litigation. I know nothing about Indian law specifically but I'd expect that there is some way that the complainants, meaning Abi and Susan, could, if they wanted, join the action themselves, now that it's filed, and sue both Jagdeo and EV. Maharaji as well, for that matter.

These are issues to be explored and, I assure you EV monitor, they will be.

Also, for those foolish premies who keep harping on the notion that exes really care about getting Maharaji as opposed to helping Abi and Susan, give me a break. One can have several motivations for doing something. This is a perfect example. Personally, I'd not only love to see the victim's get royally compensated, I'd also like to see Maharaji roast for how he handled their complaints from the beginning. You premies might not understand that but the courts certainly do. It's not an either / or thing.

Oh boy, is Maharaji going to regret this!

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:26:44 (EDT)
From: BeenThereDoneThat
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Civil suit against Jagdeo!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Okay, Abi gets some offer from someone 'in the land of oz' then all this happens? Was she being set up or was it for real? And is Abi ok? This is typical corporate law shenanigans.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:07:40 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: BeenThereDoneThat
Subject: no, I'm not OK
Message:
In fact I feel bloody awful. Thanks Bruce P, friend of Kevin and my father. You really sank the boots.

They wont even pay for a therapist. I don't see why I shouldn't just expose what they have been doing all along. But I guess I have to wait for my lawyer to get back to me first.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:25:47 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Civil suit against Jagdeo!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
How can this civil suit go anywhere unless they have other victims in India who are prepared to give evidence. And if they have such victims, why a civil suit?

This really makes no sense whatsoever. Can any premies out there explain this?

John.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 21:45:47 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Civil suit against Jagdeo!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
I don't know.
I imagine, the victims of the exes might witness in the court and the case will go on. If they refuse to do so, I think EV has no other choice than to drop the case. Then J. could sue EV.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:27:04 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Huh?
Message:
This is either the most transparent bit of CYA, or Linda Gross needs to go back to law school. Some things just don't add up.

First, Linda goes on for a full page discrediting the claimants, and reiterates continually that EVI has no knowledge of any wrongdoing. So, then, on what possible grounds are they filing a civil action against Jagdeo, when they have stated publicly that they have no evidence any of the allegations are true? How can Elan Vital accuse Jagdeo of 'inappropriat and tortuous behavior' and that he 'breached his duty to the organization [Divine Light Mission], when they state on the internet that they don't have any first-hand proof of anything? This makes no sense, except as a CYA action because the whole Jagdeo sexual-molestation problem is just getting a little too hot.

Then, in addition to stating they have zero first-hand evidence, the lawyer Linda Gross proceeds to publish an entire press release undermining the only known witnesses, including impuing their motives, apparently saying they are just into this for the money. What kind of a lawyer is Linda Gross? A cult lawyer, that's who. She is either incredibly stupid to undermine her own organization's case, she is a cruel manipulator to protect her 'master,' or she should be disbarred for malpractice. Can someone report this to the California Bar Association?

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:50:04 (EDT)
From: Hey..dipwad...
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: try reading
Message:
Maybe YOU should GO back to third grade. EVI ain't suing anybody. It's DUO. You also drop the ball in about 4 other places, but I guess that's why it took THEM to do something instead of YOU.

I'll bet they knew to the minute when someone like you would find fault in trying to at least do SOMETHING. More than YOU ever did.

Jerk.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:08:06 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Hey..dipwad...
Subject: DUO and EV are the same thing you nerd.
Message:
To suggest they aren't all controlled by you know who is absurd.

Well, one thing they could do is do an all points request that anyone who was molested by Jagdeo come forward, and give any information they have. They haven't done that, and it might be a start, instead of this CYA bullshit they are doing.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:11:15 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What does 'CYA ' stand for? (nt)
Message:
hguhygyurt
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:18:57 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Cover your arse (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:50:38 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Cover Your Ass (US)nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 16:20:10 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Hey..dipwad...
Subject: Hey dipwad is...
Message:
...Wango Tango from Lifes Great.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:06:12 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Just read the rest of it
Message:
I just read the fine print and at least 3/4 of the article on EV is spent covering their asses and trashing the alleged victims and making EV sound like saviours of humanity. More spin and lies. Godammit this is outrageous!!!
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:39:32 (EDT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Yes, it is outrageous!! nt
Message:
[qto
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:02:35 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: But did you see the slap ...
Message:
... at Abi and Susan and other victims?

Yipes.

However, I AM glad they are finally doing something.
[ Background information yeah right ]

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 22:06:24 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: But did you see the slap ...
Message:
''Neither alleged victims has ever taken law enforcement or legal action over the alleged childhood incidents.''

Alleged? The presumption is that they are lying, apparently. Another point, and one I would like some authority on child abuse and sexual abuse to address, is that child victims rarely, I mean almost never, report or bring legal action. To expect such an action from children, or indeed any victim or person in a victim situation, is absurd and cruel. This is a cruel action on EV's part, in it is actually another abuse of the victims.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:40:43 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: See what I mean? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 16:41:08 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: At least we're learning what cults are all about
Message:
What's really happening is that they're using Abi to shmear or discredit the entire Jagdeo issue.
...The second alleged victim detailed psychological difficulties encountered as a result of the alleged abuse. Although under no legal obligation to do so, EVI responded immediately with an offer of help, including payment for professional counseling of the person’s choice. This offer was rejected. The person then demanded a large amount of cash, public apologies from persons uninvolved with the episode, and, finally, that EVI buy her a house. Later, the person’s attorney told EVI that the organization would have to pay dearly to buy the alleged victim’s silence. We found these actions disconcerting. Subsequently, EVI learned that the person had been simultaneously negotiating with the producers of Australian television’s “Sixty Minutes” to broadcast the story, who apparently turned it down....

But hold on, now they're going to use Abi to do a shmear job on the Combat piece as well:

The person then began negotiating with the French Communist magazine “Combat Face Au Sida,” which advocates actions based on the recently passed “About-Picard” law. This law, which restricts freedom of thought, conscience and religion in France, has been denounced by the US State Department, members of the United States Congress as well as by civil rights leaders worldwide. According to the Helsinki Federation for Human Rights, the law ” goes against freedom of association, expression, religion and conscience; it imperils the rights of minorities and creates prejudices incompatible with the notion of tolerance intrinsic to human rights.”

Beautiful. Kill two birds with one stone. First the Jagdeo issue and then the credibility of 'Combat' too.

Man, is THIS perverse or what?!?

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:07:36 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: ps: correction
Message:
Beautiful. Kill two birds with one stone.
should read,
Beautiful. Kill two birds with one stone, or at least try.

And what an effort! I wonder what grace it will bring them in return???

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:48:01 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: What I don't understand
Message:
I don't understand how this move can end up benefitting Elan Vital. In order to pursue their lawsuit, they will have to have the collaborating testimony of the victims. But these victims will no doubt testify that they came forward much earlier than 1999, and how many people are going to believe that Charanand just doesn't remember being told. I really don't get this.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:05:55 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Get real Way
Message:
Elan Vital does not intend that this lawsuit will go ANYWHERE. And since Elan Vital is in charge of prosecuting it, it won't go anywhere. The bottom line is Elan Vital must feel that it is in deep shit and needed to do SOMETHING as a red herring to look like it is doing SOMETHING. But they didn't do ANYTHING, except, once again, try to protect Maharaji's ass.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 19:25:40 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, but as the plot thickens, this becomes
Message:
good potential 20/20 or 60 minutes stuff.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:22:48 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Right.
Message:
Yes, after thinking more about it, I came up with the same conclusion. They must be trying to deflect any possible claims against themselves, and not really serious about their own suit. But even that strategy doesn't make much sense. Their suit only keeps the issue active.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:29:08 (EDT)
From: fatty boom batty
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: YOU ADMIT
Message:
that your real interest is as an anti-maharaji issue, and not helping the victim or bringing a creep to justice. All you talk about is Maharaji this and EV that...'keeping the issue active' the women are PEOPLE not an ISSUE. You craven manipulators!

Your agenda is SHOWING!!!!

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:25:00 (EDT)
From: dippity do and tyler two
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Right.
Message:
here's something to read on the bus:

Rep. Christopher H. Smith, Chairman
Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell, Co-Chairman
For Immediate Release
www.csce.gov
July 20, 2000

Freedom of Religion Remains in Peril
Helsinki Commission Panelists Report Grim Findings
in Search of Religious Liberty Protections

(Washington) – Governments are still imposing restrictions on individual religious
liberties, despite a prior agreement to curtail anti-religious laws and governmental practices
designed to prevent people from practicing or expressing their religious beliefs, according
to panelists at today’s Helsinki Commission briefing on religious liberty.

At a Capitol Hill briefing today, the Helsinki Commission formally released an in-depth
study examining the religious liberties laws and constitutional provisions of France.

The report documents a “frightening” trend in France to limit an individual’s right to freely
express religious views or participate in religious activities according to one Library of
Congress researcher who, as part of a team of legal experts, has spent nearly two years
compiling information for the report.

The lower house of the French parliament last month passed a law creating the new crime
of “mental manipulation” and established civil and criminal penalties for activities by
religious or philosophical groups that government officials have deemed unacceptable.

“This is the latest French parliamentary action to threaten the religious liberty of French
citizens,” said Helsinki Commission Chairman Rep. Christopher H. Smith (R-NJ). “I have
urged the French Parliament to abandon this course of action.”

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 17:47:57 (EDT)
From: David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: dippity do and tyler two
Subject: Hey Mr McGruff
Message:
Dear Mr McGruff; please use just one name and not fatty boom batty and dippity do and tyler two as well.

I don't want to have to block you again.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:43:56 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Importing the swami ***BEST OF***
Message:
here's one for the scrap book. Funny as all heck too, or was it the byb?

Title: da Special-K conceptual cult cereal

Dear Alan,

r.e. appropriation of 'knowledge': the concept and term 'Knowledge' is NOT limited to da self-proclaimed god-master-materialist m. and da 4 simple meditation techs he calls 'knowledge'.

Knowledge per se is infinite - music, science, quantum and astrophysics, botany, insight meditation, mathematics, engineering, genetics, breath consciousness, medicine, cooking, art, literature, individual expressions, diverse spiritual paths on the mountain, sports/games, technology, and so forth.

However, m. and his conceptual 'kn' terminology box-trap -- the knowledge you can't get in college, the be-all, end-all of everything, etc. -- fosters erroneous premie condescension, complacency, inertia, learned helplessness and submission to dysfunctional massa m., wearing blinders and earplugs vis a vis other messages + other messengers -- except for programmed/ritualized reinforcement of da massa and the all-encompassing 'kn'-in-a-box -- da Special K cult cereal. [guess that also implies dat Premies = da special k. 'breakfast club'.]

Special K: i.e. cramming the whole concept of universal 'knowledge' into a guru-monopolistic-imperialist spiritual cereal box, disdaining any other brands that do not include submitting oneself to a Napoleonic person called Prem Rawart, blinding oneself to the infinity of other knowledges, or objectively researching any knowledge to the contrary, and hazily and lazily ignoring a whole universe of Knowledge that isn't conveniently crammed into a lil' guru-packaged fast-food conceptual box.

yeha, knowledge IS great! But it's too bad there are still some smug, privileged-few brainwashed 'great unwashed' folks around who confine 'knowledge' to a guru-meditation secret-initiation concept label. 'We know something you don't, our path leads to salvation, we're the lucky few, you just didn't 'get it'...'

Knowledge -- sheesh!

I spent several hours late last night watching my own inner light (as I have done for more than 40 years, and without using fingers to poke eyeballs, stimulate neurons). Knowledge? yeah, My Knowledge, my light, my creator. zippo = nothing to do with rawat. knowledge? like, how to drive a car -- m. never created da car, and he never wrote the definitive manual, either. also, he's no driving teacher. a vehicular hit-and-run + perjury permanently disqualifies a driving instructor. [< dere's Knowledge in dat sentence, too!]

peace and lentils,

suchabanana

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:29:01 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Virtual Guru
Message:
Well, duh!

Of course MrRawat has this in operation already: you download video conferencing software,(ya gets your smartcard debited) you receive an email telling you the evening's password,( ya gets your smartcard debited) and voila! up pops the Filament live on your computer screen for your personal consumption.

Now if mr Rawat wants to cut me some sort of a deal, I've got some sure fire ways of making the tuned in premies paying off much better than they are now. I dare say I could double or treble the take on each video conference using existing technology. And the Speaker wouldn't have to change a thing, he could keep his same schtick intact.

Of course all this is proprietary and (TM) so if you are interested, Prem (can I call you Prem, pal?) have your gal call my gal. Thanks.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:08:15 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Parting shot:)Brit TV tonght
Message:
For any Brits (Northern Europeans if you can get it) there's a 1 hour documentary in the 'Reputations' series (usually informative and interesting).

Tonights subject is Rev Moon. The blurb goes :

' Leader of the Moonies and self-proclaimed Messiah of all Mankind,Rev. Sun Myung Moonis a man who provokes strong reactions. To his friends -including George Bush Snr and Edward Heath (former Brit PM btw)- he is a hero and a man of profound spirituality. To others, he is a fraudulent Dr. No figurewho brainwashes his followers and plans to dominate the world. This in-depth profile tries to reveal the truth behind the two extremes.'

Could be interesting. Not wholly similar to Rev Rawat but it will be revealing all the same.

Now , once and for all, it's time for my sabbatical :)

See you in the Light

Jai Sat and all that ....

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:11:37 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: 9PM BBC2 NT
Message:
XX
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 09:49:50 (EDT)
From: kap
Email: qwerty@pdai.com
To: All
Subject: now some will listen
Message:
Maybe now that the ex prems are on a new site more interest will be taken in the fact that 2 mahatmas came to my appartment to kill me long ago b ye kap
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:47:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: Kap, do this right or not at all
Message:
Kap,

Have you no sense of what it takes to persuade people of things? Seems like you don't. Here's what you've got to do. Spell out your allegations in clear, coherent detail. Chapter and verse. It's an extraordinary claim. If you want us to give it some credence, you're going to need some extraordinary proof. Do you have any? What? Spell it out. Give us all the facts, the proof, everything so we can decide for ourselves. Are you capable of doing that? If so, do it. If not, quit whining. No one's going to believe that kind of shit without proof. You know that.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:59:41 (EDT)
From: Test
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: - ) - ) - ) - ) : | :|
Message:
sorry I just tested the funny heads....but I think I hope it works
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:04:37 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: sure
Message:
kap the krapp
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 12:30:52 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: salam
Subject: kap, sign me up
Message:
I might like a little r'n'r on a friendly ranch one these days. Will there be horses?
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 10:17:30 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: Re: now some will listen
Message:
No, the change of location does not change the craziness of your claim.
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 05:32:20 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: da'lil swami
Message:
denial page
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 04:28:22 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Dear children of God (revised)
Message:
I am up with a bit of insomnia, waiting for the benadryl to take, so I went to Enjoying Life for the first time, and found this revisionist quote from MJ about the time he ascended the throne:

He recounted his memory of that day, in July 1966 , at Prem Nagar ashram in the North Indian town of Hardwar, to those who had made it to this 'surprise event':

'A long time ago, on this day, there was a big gathering of people... and they were crying because my father had passed away. And nobody knew what was going to happen. I came on and I said: 'Don't cry. That's not what you've been shown. That's not what you've been told. True, this is a very awkward situation and a very painful situation but what you've been shown is incredible joy inside. Don't you know that's what it's all about.'

'I don't even exactly remember all the words that I said. I was very young, but I could see that people didn't know, and people needed to be reminded of that one thing that makes a difference in our lives.'

I remember something like, Dear children of God, why are you weeping. I am here. The perfect master never dies etc.. Am I imagining this?

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 01:04:13 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: he also said in that
Message:
speech(The Peace Bomb)......'if only people would let me lead them'.

And this from a person who said he never wanted to be a leader.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:22:01 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Dear children of God (revised)
Message:
well, ya know, the memory goes as one ages, especially after 40, so it's real handy to have movie footage of the event by which to remember the exact words. and hey- there just happens to be such a movie, by the title 'satguru has come', which wonderfully refreshes our collective memories when viewed, for we can hear and see again, just as if we were on the stage that day with little prem pal, when he stepped up to the mike and exhorted the crowds to recognize that Maharaji never leaves, that he is before you now, so obey him, worship him and adore him!
yes, indeed, he said the very words you so clearly recall. 'dear children, why are you weeping?'
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 05:44:48 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Dear children of God (revised)
Message:
maybe he needs his memory juggled
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 02:30:30 (EDT)
From: BeenThereDoneThat
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Any ex-Indian premies?
Message:
Tinkering on the edge of what I'm beginning to fear is a nervous breakdown, I wonder if any Indian premies have left and talked about it....I took the advice and read the lengthy history. Whew! This is a lot to digest. The thing is, if Maharaji isn't a perfect master then what is the point of all this? That's what I'd like to ask. Did DLM/EV think a person like myself took the techniques because I needed to mellow out? I'd already been through transcendental meditation and it meant nothing. For me, Maharaji and the techniques and everything that came with it was the only reason I accepted it. A perfect master, the lord,was an entirely different story. It never occurred to me such a thing was posible and then of course, why shouldn't it be possible? I was asked here if I thought a person couldn't experience what k promises without ties to Maharaji. I honestly never thought about it. The techniques could have been anything in reality. I could have been standing on my head. They came from Maharaji. And of course we've been told that people get these techniques out of books etc and they don't mean a thing until the person is connected to Maharaji. I accepted that totally. Does anyone know of someone who does these techniques and has a pleasant experience without ever being tied to m/ev/dlm?
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 15:14:30 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: BeenThereDoneThat
Subject: Methods
Message:
Hi BT ,

A few years ago an ex premie who had moved into other areas of inner exploration told me in a nice way that Maha had turned me into a narrow minded git. She suggested that I should check out some of the other stuff on display in the spiritual supermarket.

I did . 5 years of checking it all out . I found a lot of new age bollocks ie ridiculous belief systems , however amongst it all there were many people who were doing various techniques of concentration and having more profound and real learning than most premies.

A lot of people I met were using a variation of light technique , usually just concentrating on the region between the eyebrows and many of them were seeing inner light shows. The breath technique is so well known that pretty much every group I checked out were using that to good effect.

On the whole I found a lot more genuine higher consciousness ( I know you'd consider that an oxymoron Jim ) amongst those people than amongst the current premies. Perhaps because the love they connected with was not being drained by Maha. Their good feelings were being expressed more indiscriminately to everyone around them . In particular I was impressed with various long term yoga practitioners who would teach slightly more involved versions of the nollij techs completely without obligation . Maha's techniques are clearly fast food versions of traditional yoga methods. I've found excellent teachers of meditaion who really explain how to focus inside. Much clearer ...and guess what .. they actually do it themselves and don't get sloshed on cognac instead.

We were had. There is an experience but it shouldn't ever be franchised to us by anyone. It's our own business!

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 14:19:18 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: BeenThereDoneThat
Subject: Beentheredonethat got the t-shirt
Message:
Hi BTDT, I have been reading your posts with interest. I first left Rev Rawat in 1980 but continued enjoying the techs on my own for the next 20 years. But I still had remnants of psychological attachments to his holeyness. Last year I went back as I missed doing service. Going back in cured me of Maharajism. It was so obviously a cult.

Since then I have enjoyed practicing the techs even more without all the Maharajism concepts. I left M because I enjoy K so much and he is an incompetent and irresponsible teacher and a deeply flawed and greedy little man.

It is not easy to make the break from him because of all the subconscious fear that he instilled (You will rot if you leave the master, you cannot be saved without the master etc)but once you make the break you will see how simple and easy K really is and begin to enjoy it for yourself. I wish you all the best and please feel free to email me anytime you want.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:34:56 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: BeenThereDoneThat
Subject: Re: Any ex-Indian premies?
Message:
I personally think that the meditation techniques (practices) will work for anyone who is prepared to do them intently enough.
The rewards are clearly realated to the degree of sincerity, conscientiousness, time and effort which one puts in. It's that simple.

The interpretation of the more 'trans-personal' experiences that one has in meditation, whether it be Light, Sound, Stillness, Nectar, Bliss is, to my mind, where the whole thing becomes messy - given the huge variety and wishful-thinkingness of these interpretations and the variety of the beliefs about who (or what) one should thank for them.

What a guru / teacher / master / authority figure (or whatever you want to call it) brings into the equation that could possibly be interpreted as 'positive', is that they can persuade you (by hook or by crook!) to actually make the practice a part of your life and that it is at all necessary, beneficial or usually 'essential to your soul' for you to do so! (ie from the old satsangs whereby if you don't you will be born as a worm or mollusc in your next life etc.to the modern more toned down threat that you will be prey to negativity or just plain missing out on appreciating life with The Master ). In short they sell it to you which involves them saying 'you have a need for this -this is what you are really missing' etc.

In practice, the negative side is that usually there is a lot of very undivine power play, manipulation, humiliation, threats of the consequences of ignoring the advise, religion, dependency and general 'cultism' that goes along with this. One has to seriously weigh up the pros and cons.

I haven't been to a satsang for several years although I do discuss the subject passionately with premies very often. I fully admit that for years Maharaji fulfilled the role of an adopted teacher, in that he encouraged me to meditate - as I said sometimes through inspiration and sometimes through scare tactics (visa-vi during his Kissimee satsangs).

Clearly in India there have been and still are other Guru's that play this role quite satisfactorily for their followers. Indeed they practice the same techniques and their teachings are absolutely proven to be different branches of the exact same tree. For example, Maharaji's father's guru, Sarupanand actually spawned a generation of several would-be 'Satgurus' of whom Shri Hans was but one. The followers of these new gurus are similarly impressed with the results of their Guru's power as any premie is with their Maharaji, although Shri Hans may have been apparently more succesful.

Of course Maharaji's very own brother Satpal, has a large following of satisfied customers and yet they claim that Maharaji is a bogus renegade who is misleading his flock. Premies believe the converse.

Common sense tells me that what makes one follow a particular guru is not so much a matter of whether they are or are not the real Mcoy. (If there is indeed such a singular entity in reality), but more whether their appeal is to our taste, acceptable, on a more social level.

One can see that Maharaji, as a young Guru and in the spirit of the times, had considerable appeal to us westerners. It is of no surprise that he has achieved great success, indeed possibly greater success (in terms of number of converts globally) than some of his Indian similars who are still bogged down in their own limited cultural appeal.

Maharaji's success seems largely due to his having sold the 'Knowledge' in a manner which has appealed to westerners . He has moved with the tastes of the times.

It was very much in his favour that at the time he started out in the 70's, there was considerable affection by young westerners for all things Indian and the mysterious East. It was therefore not neccessary at all for him, at first, to drop the more traditional Indian religious aspects of his inherited teachings. In fact it was only when he himself became enamoured of all things western that he felt that it may look a bit odd to be subjecting his 'devotees' carte-blanche to such a culturally different regime and one which became increasingly contradictory to his own behaviour and obviously unpalatable to the majority of people of the world - who he intends to propagate his teachings to. So he changed his tune.

To your question:
Does anyone know of someone who does these techniques and has a pleasant experience without ever being tied to m/ev/dlm?

I personally occasionally do the techniques and don't consider myself tied in this way although the experience is there. In some ways I miss the encouragement that comes from the whole Maharaji/premie scene -but against that I am weighing up

a) How much does this experience really mean to me and how much time do I really want or need to give it?
b) Could I stomache the negative part of the Maharaji scene and influence in my life enough to feel that it is worth pursuing?

At the moment the bad effects seem to have out-weighed the good , so I find myself , somewhat reluctantly, but not without some considerable reward, going it alone in the universe for once.
As I said once here, it got to a point where I was having a physical gut reaction to going to programs so in a way, my body told me to back off -I was getting ill.

For me I think rewards of backing off from M's influence have been:

Not feeling torn apart and guilty about having misgivings. Beng healthier and happier as a result.

I am really on my own and finding out how I really feel - rejecting as it were - the sugestions of others about what I should feel and to whom I should be grateful. Ie. I have to really consider and work things out for myself.

Not dependant on meditation like some drug or anaesthetic to make the day bearable or to stave off negativity -thinking etc.

Not feeling 'obliged or pressured' in any way, which I did as a premie -certainly to ''practice' and 'attend' -'be involved' etc.

Having to really look at myself and my integrity and to take more responsibility for my life- in itself this is a great pleasure.

Not feeling intimidated by him as an authority figure.

Shedding a whole load of beliefs about him and the idea of a Master as a part of some universal plan from a higher power to redeem mankind.

Not having to interpret my meditational experiences -peace- as being dependant or revealed by Maharaji - and not feeling that I owe him for anything. I feel that Krishnasuchanand showed me how to do something on 28 July 1974 that, although was presented as a secret Knowledge, should be, in a healthy world, common knowledge.

Being able to see how Maharaji, religions and their teachers actually work and how there are very prosaic explanations for the things that I supposed, believed and assumed with wishfull thinking, were examples of 'His Grace'.

Dealing with a formless unknown God again in my prayers - not holding Maharaji in my mind as some idol or icon or adopted archetype for something that in reality I do not know.

Not worrying that I somehow harbour an 'evil mind' which is, like some inner traitor, plotting against me. Nor that I need to be 'saved' from this by some God.

Having more time to enjoy life in other ways.
Keeping my earnings entirely for my family and I to benefit from.
I stopped smoking too - I have an extra £35 a week in my pocket that's £1820 a year. Practicing Knowledge ain't so cheap either!!

Not feeling that I have to guard any secrets or be held to some vows that I made ages ago under some duress and as a naive, sincere but anxious teenager.

Not trusting in someone whom I feel let me down to some extent in the past - after I had invested much faith in him, and made many sacrifices to serve him full-time. What I am saying is that it is a relief to admit to oneself, against the strong emotional reluctance to do so, that one really does not trust someone for clear reasons and that one has in some ways been an emotional prisoner of that person.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:30:14 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Re: Any ex-Indian premies?
Message:
nice post patrick...and to the question...after many years of seperating from m, i started meditating fairly regularly and still do most days for different lengths of time. i have wonderful experiences of the life force that is me. meditation reminds me that i am connected to a much larger reality then i often assume and i feel wonderful for that.

i took me a long time to delink from the maharaji energy that i had given my power to. i would occasionally unconsciously 'pranam' or say my little pray to m by rote...gradually i made the process my own completely and seperately and believe that it benefits me considerably in my daily life.

i also went thru a period of strong anger and rebellion to anything that had to do with m...hated his sense of ownership of the techniques etc. this period lasted a few years...remanants are still in dark corners of my psyci (sp?)..which i now take as friendly reminders of the fact that i am not as realized as i want to be...personally empowered as i want to be...humbling even...which is fine really, keeping me honest on my path of self actualization. and i like tht the desire to go within myself to places of subtler essesence is now self generated from an experience of its personal usefulness.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 02:51:59 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: BeenThereDoneThat
Subject: A: Dr. David Lane did experiments
Message:
Dr. David Lane showed some of the same meditation techniques to his college students. They reported the same experiences as premies have.

Other people have done these techs w/o a guru.

Others and I have also experienced inner light and sounds ever since we were kids -- many years before becoming adults and ever hearing about a young self-proclaimed boy-god-satguru named miragey.

We naively bought into the now-evident maha materialist empowerment/enrichment trip -- because of the well-promoted savior/guru-god incarnate + kn. connection, bringing peace to the world, etc. - like a fulfillment of Aquarian hippie pipe dreams.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 02:58:09 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Techs without Massa
Message:
There is a post somewhere below (anyone remember it and can repost) from someone who went to a satsang of another satguru with the exact same techniques, story about P.M./Lord, etc. They were all having blissful experiences.

I have met followers of Charan Singh and Kirpal Singh who got the techniques, thought they were following the one P.M. of the age, and were having blissful experiences. There is a lot of information about all this on EPO, especially in the Radha Soami section.

And beyond that, many of us who post here (although not me) have continued to practice the techniques after leaving the massa, and many have reported that it is better, freer - that is if he didn't get so far into their head that they are consumed with guilt and confusion. The fact that so many go through these agonizing feelings regarding something inside their own being demonstrates what a mindfuck MJ's trip can be.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 23:32:28 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: well said, nt
Message:
zz
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 08:42:48 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Techs without Massa
Message:
i have a friend who came to me 10 years ago as a confused, emotional boy of 20, and I made a cautious decision to help him and taught him as much as i could while he stayed with me. I never showed him the techniques, but he did come to programs with me to see MJ in person. Every time he asked to receive knowledge, they refused him, because we never went to videos and no one but me knew him, so they didnt think he was sincere or 'preparing' properly.
This guy used to sit with me when i meditated, just trying to be quiet and go into the silence and find his center as best as he could, without getting any techniques or whtever.

First he got nectar. it came over him repeatedly outta nowhere. i was thrilled for him and explained it.

some time months later, he heard the sound and went into it and went far away with it, and came back a changed man. I explained that one too, and shared his amazement.

the kicker was the day years later when he was meditating alone by himself and came in , radiant, to tell me he had gone into the Light for the first time, and once there, it had answered everyquestion he had ever wanted to know--which imediately gave rise to a whole new slew of questions! and he knew the Light had all those answers for him, too, if he could just stay IN there.
He stood there, blazing and excited and confided to me that he understood, now, and realized why meditation was a discipline you had to work at. He told me--completely without my commenting--that he saw how his mind got in the way of his staying there and soaking it up, and he was gonna really bukcle down and practice, cause he wanted to go there again like he just had.

no knowledge session. no videos. not the remotest instruction in the four techniques. never met a mahatma, never did pranam, never once set foot in an ashram or the residence.
but he got nectar, sound and the light, full blast.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 10:01:22 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: janet
Subject: Re: Techs without Massa
Message:
Interesting story Janet.

You reminded me that I saw Light, with my eyes closed, very brightly before even hearing about Knowledge - I was really very much as you descibe this boy . I however assumed, when M came along, that anyone who was teaching or promoting this Light was trustworthy. I am wondering whether this young boy maybe went on to receive Knowledge.

It seems that Knowledge - Maharaji's teachings - at the end of the day, are inescapably about recognising that Maharaji is somehow the Guardian or the living manifestation of this inner Light and Being of Wisdom - God in short...or at least that he can show you your own God within and continue to guide you in that prescence. At least that it how it has been for me and most premies I know (from my generation).

After I got Knowledge in '74, I practised all the time with increased gusto and more and more, I naturally interpreted it and associated it with Maharaji. There was however a lot of suggestion about this at satsang - it was not as if I saw Maharaji's face beaming out of the Light inside!

Whereas once I had experienced this Light inside as a brief revelationary contact with a friendly 'un-named' formless God I now learned to completely associate it with Maharaji the man. Of course my trust in him became implicit and I soon sacrificed my worldly aspirations to do what he wanted - which at the time meant becoming an ashram premie. The word God became synonymous with the word Maharaji, and similarly with the man.

All I can say is that following Maharaji the man, and his instructions at the time, resulted in my having a rather rough time and I basically did not enjoy life so much as a 'surrendering premie' . In retrospect it was an extremely drab, often humiliating time, punctuated with a general feeling of hope that better times would unfold - or be given to me. Also I had many suppressed misgivings about the surrender stuff, the pressure to dedicate, the Hindu influences and the general craziness and selfishness in premiedom. I think that the whole premie world was basically a disappointment (as Maharaji turned out to be in some ways) although I just stomached it at the time . I reckon I would have been a lot happier, made more of my life, and indeed done more really sincere meditation if I had not been so caught up in the external world of 'becoming a devotee' and all the dependancy that that entailed. And I really do hold Maharaji responsible for intimidating, as well as inspiring me, to make choices about surrendering to him . I don't buy this talk that to hold Maharaji partly responsible for the choices one made as a premie amounts to having the attitude of an obsessive victim. I credit Maharaji for a lot of inspiration and encouragement but I cannot ignore that in many ways he put me off the very knowledge I enjoyed. It's strange but true!

For me, after many years as a premie exploring and practicing this belief (which in many ways seemed reinforced by experiences) I feel that it is really a folly to believe that, just because someone speaks about , or even speaks to your heart about these experiences, that they necessarily deserve gratitude or service, or indeed that they are authorities on the real puropose of life as a human being.

It has been extremely hard to come to terms with the fact that Maharaji seems to have been occasionally deceitful, made mistakes and is himself a far more 'earthly' person than the divine master that he associated himself with by implication.

I suppose he speaks of 'Maharaji' in the 3rd person a lot of the time to make the distinction that he is, on one level, this ordinary fellow with all the faults, quirks, talents or whatever. On the other level he implies that there is this Master and that he somehow is that too.

The confusion for me arose in that it was the former, the flesh and blood man Maharaji, who gave 'Agya', said I should dedicate my life, etc. etc. not this formless being that is Lotus-like, and beyond the world and disaccociated from it's chosen channel's vices and mundanity.. I therefore feel he has some responsibility, some ABILITY to help people make the distinction that he seems so clear about, between who they should follow and serve.

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Date: Wed, Aug 08, 2001 at 08:22:30 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Re: Techs without Massa
Message:
in answer to your wondering--no, my friend never DID get a knowledge session. He became aware of EPO the same time I did, and together we became disgusted and pissed off about it all.
After listening to pat conlon and suchabanana's tutorials on yoga, I told my friend that I have decided to hold a knowledge session and show him the techniques myself. I leave it to him to ask for the day when he feels ready to do it.
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Date: Mon, Aug 06, 2001 at 22:31:07 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Like the Chinese cultural Revolutions
Message:
As I'm about to take a sabbatical from all things Rawatist I thought I'd take a good mooch round the EPO site as I haven't done so for a while. Boy did it take me back! Way back. So far back that I was recalling the days and weeks just before receiving the beloved Divine gift of knowledge.

It got me thinking how , at first, I tried to resist the lure of Guru Maharaj jis offer. In the end though the cult snatched me up and gobbled me whole.( destined to reside in its stomach for …wait for it…….a quarter of a century ) Anyway, Before you could say 'Jack Robinson' I was serving in the upstairs café as an aspirant for a few months before 'initiation' (not too demanding…just 7 or 8 AM to midnight , 7 days per week…quit a job, signed on the dole and got a bedsittter a short walk from the Palace) but hold on I'm jumping ahead here.

It also got me thinking how the present day premies say we are just deadbeats stuck in the 70's and not only that, they also claim we are deliberately lying about our experiences. They claim a whole load of stuff just never in fact happened. Take Such's recent post on LG . He was contrasting present day Maharaji comments with latter day Guru Maharaji comments. One premie accused him of using ' dated' material and claiming, therefore, that it wasn't valid. Well, excuse me , Mr and Mrs Modern day premie , as recently as Thousand Oaks Mr Master was talking about this being a lifetime (should I repeat that? Lifetime) journey. He also talked about right up until the moment of death. Elsewhere he still talks in terms of eternity and infinity. So in that context, I'd sure like to know where this concept of ' dated' fits in. It doesn't does it? I mean what's 30 or so years give or take a few? I mean generally ( for the very reason of avoiding the accusation of being stuck in the 70's )I try to avoid going back so far and keep things as up to date as possible but hold on one goddamm minute this is also about my life, my life experience, my history. I'll be damned if some jerk here in 2001 says I'm deluded or lying and thus rewrite history so that he sits comfortably in his cult.

So anyway, what is it? It's about July 1973 and there I am , sharing a flat in London with an old college mate. I'm 22 years old. We are just aimlessly dropping acid, smoking dope, drinking booze, grabbing as much sex as we can, going to as many live bands as we can and occasionally , in quieter moments, contemplating whether there is a deeper meaning to life apart from the everyday debauchery that we were wallowing in. Then down below , move two premie couples sharing the large garden flat (apartment) below. Not your average suited ashram types. Cool, friendly tokers but pretty regular satsang goers and financial contributors to the Mission

Before long I'm down there listening in awe and asking so many questions wheras my flat mate reckons it is just a weird cult. 'You gotta be fucking joking man ' he tells me. 'That little fat Indian kid ….some sort of god, avatar, messenger, perfect master or whatever.! ' I thought he had a point . Then again these premies and the things they said ….man , it sounds enticing! I'll just go to the Palace of Peace and if I think it's a weird cult…..well I'll just refuse to be drawn in. Besides, I'd already given up the Cathoilic faith and I definitely won't get into any strange devotional trip.

What do I find at the Palace . A large table covered with a white cloth and lots of fruit on it and a big picture of the boy guru. Well fuck me ! It's an altar ! Not only that EVERYONE who comes in bows down to it ( pranams , as I'd later find out). Many people would bring fruit or whatever with them and place it on the alatr. Jesus Christ! Tis is worse than the catholic church. As the meeting gets under way I hear all this weird shouting ' BHOLIE SHRI SATGURUDEV MAHARAJ KI JAI!!! BHOLIE SHRI SATGURUDEV MAHAR KI JAI!!! Over and over again. Sort of fanatical chanting.Also passionately sung songs like ' THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE HAS COME TO US TODAY ' People wearing huge badges of the boy on their lapels. A newspaper called DIVINE TIMES claiming the LORD WAS IN LONDON. Yep it really said that in big headlines. I'm a bit stoned on some good Lebanese and I'm thinking ' WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS PLACE !!!!! GET ME OUTA HERE. '

I freaked and told these new friends of mine ' no thanks' ! They didn't give up on me though .Many a night of toking, talking and cajoling for me to just go one more time. It wasn't long before I was serving at the Palace, given up all smoking and drugs and considered my premie friends back in the flat as a little bit space out, Sort of not really focused. Nice enough and all but really!! What were they doing as just part time devotees !!

These days the ELAN VITAL web site says that stuff didn't go on. Maharaji didn't claim anything of the sort. Well excuse me once again ……I lived it. Here on planet earth, in flesh and blood. Ii went on to give mind , body and soul as it happens. I lived in ashrams. None of your one hour a day meditation. Threee or four hours if you don't mind. All sorts of service activities. Satsang till it was coming out of my ears. Yep I lived it . It happened. I was there. Believe me , I was there. It lasted YEARS. So fuck of MR and Mrs Modern day premie. Fuck off Elan Vital. Fuck off Prem pal singh Rawat. Don't tell me I imagined you said and did all that stuff. I was you !! Don't you remember????? You swallowed me up.

.

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 10:38:06 (EDT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Like the Chinese cultural Revolutions
Message:
Hi Dermot,

sure your Mum and Dad had told you not to take drugs, maybe you would not have spent 25 years in a cult. No I don't mean it serious. I was a macrobiotic freak at that time, and had already stopped takeing drugs and I ended up under the same conditions as you as a devotee of the Lord of the Universe. I gave up my studies, sold my records, gave away my golden watch, gave away my money and my furnitures, moved in a premiecenter, worked for jumble sales. Satsang every night. Fakiranand told us to have two or three jobs and 4 hours of meditation, and we should use every chance to give satsang to people evrywhere we are but when we go to the toilette we should take off our MJ-buttons and we should prostrate before every picture of MJ even before MJ-posters on the streets. MJ himself said: Premies don't be shy to shout out my name in the streets. And remember the slogan: who can chang atombombs into flowers? ' GURU MAHARAJI' and he said: ' When God would have manifested one year later, it would be too late'
Can you imagine what would have had happend when he would have come one year later?
I was pretty naiv at that time. Now my kids are in the same age like I was át that time and I would have a lot of sorrows when my kids would now end up in a similar situation. But my kids were allways distanced to that MJ-thing. There was a time, were I thougt, I have done something wrong in educating my kids because they never showed any interst in M and K even I once have taken my son to a programm in India. Today I think I have done something good. They times they are a changing.

ciao .....nice to hear your story.....same time, same places...wolfie

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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 13:31:25 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Hi Wolfie, great to hear ya, as usual NT
Message:
cc
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 07:17:01 (EDT)
From: don puerco
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Like the Chinese cultural Revolutions
Message:
those were the days my friend, i thought they'd never end...
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Date: Tues, Aug 07, 2001 at 20:35:50 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: don puerco
Subject: Sympathy for the Devil ? :D :D :D [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jul 14, 2001 at 09:24:56 (BST)
From: Mr D
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Mr D
Subject: Or do they?
Message:
I dunno.



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