Ex-Premie Forum 6 Archive
From: Jul 14, 2001 To: Aug 11, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


Good for the Goose -:- WHO's a sex Offender??? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 16:54:19 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- You guys missed the point in all this -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:27:24 (EDT)
__ __ Barry -:- Oh! well this dick still Slandered you? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:38:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, sure. -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:59:31 (EDT)
__ Barry -:- This is so bad! -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:24:11 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Libel, Barry, it's LIBEL -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:45:16 (EDT)
__ Steve -:- Wango Tango -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:09:25 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- In defense of Wango Tango -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:14:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ CD -:- Re: In defense of Jim -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:03:10 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Then let's lynch Jagdeo and Maha -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:57:19 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Careful Deb - looks like threat... -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:31:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- My words were carefully chosen -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:03:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Ha ha ha ha! (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:45:53 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Yes, coward, even you have rights -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:01:06 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- CW or SC perhaps??? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:10:07 (EDT)
__ __ SC -:- Fuck off you stupid cow -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 04:57:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ HEY - DID DURGA THE COW -:- SWALLOW? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:26:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- revolting woman-hater -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:19:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- Absolutely correct -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 06:53:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- And I -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 07:06:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Abi whay can you expect. -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 06:11:07 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- The browser type matches -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:32:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Re: The browser type matches -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:43:25 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: WHO's a sex Offender??? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:09:49 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Re: WHO's a sex Offender??? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 03:14:35 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Since when is Maharaji a defense attorney? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:06:02 (EDT)
__ __ Goosie Goo -:- Your hypocrisy is showing, folks! -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:03:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- on being a thing -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:33:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Twit! (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:48:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Moron..? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:40:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Steve -:- wanker Tanker -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:12:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Nobody can 'use' Abi -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:52:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Liar!!! -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:19:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Get a Grip! -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:49:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Barry -:- I agree Cynyhia! -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:55:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, you can be both cowardly AND stupid -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:07:20 (EDT)

la-ex -:- William Straight....should we laugh or cry? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:48:35 (EDT)
__ bill, well La-ex, he DOES -:- 'hate', at least THAT is correct [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:03:26 (EDT)
__ silvia -:- Re: William Straight....should we laugh or cry? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:09:59 (EDT)

Joe -:- Martin Gray -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:25:40 (EDT)
__ la-ex -:- JOE: Re: Martin Gray -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:26:48 (EDT)
__ Carl -:- Re: Martin Gray: Very good work /OT -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:07:33 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Looks like Joel Gray's son. [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:53:25 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- He's too tall for that...nt -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:54:00 (EDT)
__ Way -:- Another oldie -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:36:08 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Yes.... -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:50:22 (EDT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- Re: Martin Gray's Guru Scam -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:34:51 (EDT)
__ __ bill- -:- he wants to rule the world [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:20:15 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: Martin Gray not a Guru Scammer -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:59:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Agree, seems like he's into ... -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:33:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- He's really Martin Baysdow, -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 16:00:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Scott, glad to know you're still around! [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:16:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Re: Martin Gray not a Guru Scammer -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:14:40 (EDT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Re: Martin Gray -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:53:32 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Anybody in the Boston area ? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 05:59:33 (EDT)
__ bill -:- Sure JM, if it aint vacation time:) [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:04:34 (EDT)

salam -:- EV -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 05:54:15 (EDT)
__ BTDT -:- Re: EV -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 00:27:48 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: EV -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:30:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ BTDT -:- Re: EV -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 10:23:26 (EDT)

Timmi -:- no answer -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:52:20 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: no answer -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:54:46 (EDT)
__ such -:- don't hold your breath,Timmi... -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:24:15 (EDT)
__ CD -:- Re: life -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:44:14 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Correction: You had a life, until you met MAHA -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:40:49 (EDT)
__ Salam -:- Re: no answer -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 05:51:37 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- Is called taxes... -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 02:54:49 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Definitely, taxes and reporting -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 12:01:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- dat's very taxing! -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:29:17 (EDT)

Jim -:- Here's your answer, SC -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 00:31:17 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- Don't follow leaders;check yer parking meters... [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:05:47 (EDT)
__ SC -:- Hi Jim -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 05:18:08 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hi SC -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:40:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ SC -:- Re: Hi SC -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:38:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I see, you've got David Andersen disease -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:39:21 (EDT)
__ CW -:- Loser -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 04:45:43 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- Cat,da official spieling = 'looser' -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:16:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Reality Check -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:48:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Cat, you should see yourself! -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:40:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- You dont get it do you? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 09:02:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is that a threat? Try again -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:46:09 (EDT)

Jim -:- Here's your answer, Richard2 -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 21:06:13 (EDT)
__ Richard II -:- And mine -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 02:14:23 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- No, Ricahrd2, you're wrong -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:43:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard II -:- Re: No, Ricahrd2, you're wrong -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:15:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Not to make M look as bad as... -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:25:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- '( *( '( %( #( @( $( !( ?( -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:07:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- My, How Sarcastic... -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:41:52 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- A suggestion -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 03:34:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ R2 -:- Re: A suggestion -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:22:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- and what's wrong with wanting compensation? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 23:24:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ R2 -:- Hey, it's done every day -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 00:51:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Really, R2? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:19:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Richard II, UNCALLED FOR REMARK! -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:14:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- the EV anxiety -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:31:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- where's your answer -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:12:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Hey, it's done every day -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:02:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ R2 -:- Thank you -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:54:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- WHAT?????????? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:23:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- No thanks -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 04:56:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard 2 -:- Re: No thanks -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:03:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ BTDT -:- Re: and what's wrong with wanting compensation? -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 00:33:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ XYZ -:- The Pascattos -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 09:38:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: The Pascattos -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:13:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Dr Valerio Pascotto -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:05:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Abi, this post and your other below rock -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 23:43:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- R2: artists formerly known as URL/Nil? [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 06:09:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: A suggestion -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 09:43:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Re: A suggestion -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 09:52:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: A suggestion -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 10:23:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Krishnamurti was a hypocritical windbag -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:04:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Don't you mean R2-Detour? [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 04:22:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- don't want to take that particular detour ;) -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:54:16 (EDT)

Joe -:- David Horsford -- still a premie? -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:22:12 (EDT)
__ A Friend -:- Re: David Horsford -- still a premie? -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:09:28 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Don't quite understand -- is that the Debbie -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 00:15:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- the horsford files -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:48:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Thanks, la-ex -:- Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:07:19 (EDT)
__ la-e -:- Re: David Horsford?--I think so... -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 23:26:20 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- David Horsford -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:53:10 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Why don't you email him and ask him -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 22:01:24 (EDT)

Deborah -:- Hey, check out LG -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 17:37:30 (EDT)
__ bill really Deborah? CD took -:- the 'ultimate' and just left 'ruler'? [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:06:28 (EDT)
__ Way -:- Re: Hey, check out LG -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 10:51:21 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- Correction to above -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:09:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Another correction -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:11:11 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- Linda Gross and -:- Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 02:57:40 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- that is rich -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:13:50 (EDT)
__ __ Selene -:- so is M -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:25:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: so is M, It is So! -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 19:00:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- ARE WE HAVING FUN YET? -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 21:54:06 (EDT)

Joe -:- Maharaji Report: Foundation for Religious Freedom -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:00:20 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Interesting: 80% of premies left the cult -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 17:09:49 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Maharaji Report: FORF -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:23:39 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- ABOVE, don't know where LINK came from [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:25:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Here is the link -:- Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:22:16 (EDT)


Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 16:54:19 (EDT)
From: Good for the Goose
Email: None
To: All
Subject: WHO's a sex Offender???
Message:
What would you say about someone who tried to assist someone in evading justice KNOWING that they had RAPED AND KILLED an 1 year old girl?

What would you say about someone who said that the guy should NOT be convivted of MURDERING AN 11 YEAR OLD GIRL WHO HAD BEEN RAPED?

Abi, You say 'children are precious.' Ask Jim Heller if he agrees....did Jim Heller apologize to the parents of Jessica States?

If Maharaji is a Sex Offender by association, isn't Jim?

Public documents and proof at
http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca
The Queen versus Roderick Patten.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:27:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Good for the Goose
Subject: You guys missed the point in all this
Message:
This ruling was a side issue in the trial. It was all about me retaining an expert who, unfortunately, lied about his prior committments this forcing an adjournment (highly irregular in a jury trial). As the ruling shows, I was honest to the 't', notifying the court immediately when I learned of my expert's deceit. Blah blah blah blah blah ...
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:38:48 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh! well this dick still Slandered you?
Message:
correct?
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:59:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Yeah, sure.
Message:
Barry,

He slandered me just like Stockwell Day did in Alberta. Stock Day, a fundamentalist Christian and leader of the Alliance Party, the official opposition here in Canada, wrote a letter to a newspaper editor a couple of years ago about his local opponent, a guy who happened to be a criminal lawyer. Day criticized him for defending a pedophile in a high-profile case and insinuated that the lawyer condoned his client's acts. The lawyer sued and Day ultimately settled for lots of money. In fact, the fact that Day got his party to cover the settlement and his legal fees ($750,000!) became a real bone of contention with his constituency. He's on the way out as all Canadians know.

So, sure, this anonymous dweeb libelled me (slander only covers oral defamation). But whatever, eh? These aren't regular human beings, Barry. They're cult members.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:24:11 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Good for the Goose
Subject: This is so bad!
Message:
Yo! Good for your up your ass, or whatever your name is. You just accused and slandered an attorney in print. Your a friggen idiot! Heller's cases are of public knowledge to anyone who wants to see them. Its all there in transcripts etc.. He's got nothing to be ashamed of at all. you on the other hand..are standing very close to a dangerous line here. Slander and accusations of pedifealia are very seriouse. And toward an attorney...that's just plain stupid, but hey stupid is as stupid does, right gump!

Jim is an excellent defence lawyer. Why the fuck do you think his firm gives him such high profile shit? Jim completly uderstands the issues of the victims in his cases, good defence lawers have to. I know for a fact he feels terrible for their suffering, just like most human beings--well maybe besides you. He has children of his own and I know he would go to town on anyone that would try to hurt them. This doesn't mean he should throw away the disapline it takes to defend a killer just because he feels bad for the victim and there families does it? you just wouldn't uderstand any of that would you?
I tell you this shit for brains! When it's your turn, and your awaiting the judgement for something horrendice, that you say you did not do...well sometimes a guy like Jim is the only mother fucker in the your puny shrunken social world that gives a shit! You think your prennie pals are gonna hang close to an accused child killer?... you get the drift? At that point in your life, or whats left of it, all you got is your defence layer. Simple. I'd watch the slander pal.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:45:16 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Libel, Barry, it's LIBEL
Message:
Good post, dude. My sentiment exactly.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:09:25 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Good for the Goose
Subject: Wango Tango
Message:
Please stop this harassment of Jim. You are being a naughty boy and up to your old tricks and just after quoting that inspiring stuff about ' that place of non judgement !' Tut Tut.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:14:37 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: In defense of Wango Tango
Message:
1) He is in a cult. All his adult years he's wrestled with the embarrassment of that fact. Look what it's done to him. Moment of silence, please.

2) He just might not have much education. People who can't think through the pros and cons of our legal system often, not always but often, lack a good education. Now that's likely not his fault either. He's in a cult which doesn't exactly encourage learning anything outside the four corners of 'Knowledge'.

3) He's desparate. This whole latest gesture on EV's part must make even WT think 'what the fu...?!' But who can he talk to? No one. Poor guy. Min doyu, I guess that's why there's mediation, right?

4) He just may be Jack Tuff. Jack, is that you?

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:03:10 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: In defense of Jim
Message:
Certainly defense of criminals with the aid of an attorney is a good thing. And no problem with Jim doing that job which must be difficult at times.

I read a bit of the Supreme Court of British Columbia case material and found this interesting quote by the judge who Jim always politely calls 'My Lord' and 'Your Lordship':
'That gave rise, not surprisingly, to a further rather lengthy exchange between the Court and Mr. Heller. '

Can you imagine the expression on Jim's face as he has to use 'Lord' amd 'Lordship' to address the court. But according to the records I looked at, Jim seems to conduct himself respectfully while addressing the court. Then when he gets home, its a quick kiss for his girlfriend, then to the computer to let them have it with that energy he has been repressing ... The judge does seem to know that Jim loves a heated debate!

CD

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:57:19 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Good for the Goose
Subject: Then let's lynch Jagdeo and Maha
Message:
Or do you believe they deserve their day in court?

Fuck you premies are so derranged. Seriously, get yourself committed.

In drawing this comparison is bordering on the danger zone.

Real live ones. Don't you wish you had their experience? Yccchhhhh

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:31:57 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Careful Deb - looks like threat...
Message:
...which isn't what you meant in your post, but the title gives that impression, I think.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:03:58 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: My words were carefully chosen
Message:
I know you acknowledged that, but there is no threat involved.

If that's how I felt, I wouldn't broadcast it. I'd just pay someone to do it. That simple. I think these guys better watch what they're saying. other people might get ideas.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:45:53 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Ha ha ha ha! (nt)
Message:
dddd
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:01:06 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Good for the Goose
Subject: Yes, coward, even you have rights
Message:
You don't understand dick, fella. I have no shame for my representation of this client or any other. Got a problem with it? Go order the transcript of my closing arugment (you can, it's a public proceeding). I'm proud of what I do, what I did in this case in particular, the representation I gave my client, the way I dealt with the victim's memory and her parents, all of it.

Unlike your cult leader, asshole, I stand by my words. Unlike you I stand by my words. You're a nothing. A little ghost of a cult member in cyberspace making cowardly and stupid arguments. Gary Larson ('Far Side') should do a cartoon of you guys sitting in front of your computers. Can you imagine? Ha hahhah!

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:10:07 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Good for the Goose
Subject: CW or SC perhaps???
Message:
Posting last msg I mean.
ha almost typod and wrote WC. heeeeee... or Richard II?
Give it up. Whether it's true or not it has no relevence.
Jim is an attorney and he is not hiding his life.
And what do you do for a living troll? Can you give us a little background to go on? easy to pick on those who have exposed their lives isn't it? You are a creep for that. Just that is enough, to hide anonymously and attack others. How fucking stupid are you that you think this would hold up to daylight against an attack on Jim.
I think M and EV are a bit disturbed about Abi. Seems to have brought out the best in premies like you.
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 04:57:33 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Fuck off you stupid cow
Message:
and keep your pathetic sick personal biases out the public arena. If you want a fair fight with me, then FINE, start a thread and let's go. Your cowardly backhanded insinuations really expose you for the piece of crap you are.

So cerise kicked your sorry butt. GET OVER IT!

Anyway how the hell would I know details like that about Jim when I live 12000 miles away you moron? I don't do that kind of shit to anyone so fucking sod off and crawl back into MSdos coding hell where you live.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:26:34 (EDT)
From: HEY - DID DURGA THE COW
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: SWALLOW?
Message:
HA HA HA.... A FAIR FIGHT WITH AN ANONYMOUS GUY.

What happened to you bub? Did some lady once hum, 'Is That All There Is?' when she first saw you AHEM MEMBER?

Hey I bet Durga Ji thought that when she first went down on your fifteen year old Master. Now there is a COW for you. Hippie doodle doodle blond diddling a young 'Lord of the Universe'.

Hey, do you think she encouraged her sons.... to go out with femaleS that like little teenage boys?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA .... Can you see it now? They get some gorgeous bimbo interested in their fancy cars, parked in a dark canyon and what do you know..... the boys don't have it either. HA HA HA HA HA.

Is that all there is? What a joke you and your MASTER GOAT AND MISTRESS COW are.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:19:08 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: revolting woman-hater
Message:
Good god man. Try some manners.
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 06:53:13 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Absolutely correct
Message:
I hate revolting women.
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 07:06:12 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: And I
Message:
strongly dislike men who write to women like that. You sound almost proud of what you said to her. God help the women in your life if that's the sort of sexism bubbling under your skin.

Why not apologise to her and take back some dignity for yourself.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 06:11:07 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi whay can you expect.
Message:
Good god man. Try some manners.


---

SC emulates his master.

Take care

Jethro

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:32:54 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: The browser type matches
Message:
Wango Tango and Mr. Mcgruff
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:43:25 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: The browser type matches
Message:
could be. Only our FA knows for sure :) As you can see I have a certain lack of trust in browser detection.
No matter. The point is, they hide everything and then attack us and expect it to be accepted. They actually get angry and upset when it is not accepted. And here I am, here Jim is, many of us with all our warts and all hangin out. I do not call that fair play.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:09:49 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Good for the Goose
Subject: Re: WHO's a sex Offender???
Message:
So you don't believe that accused people are entitled to legal representation, or is only for the innocent ones. What sort of legal system would you support?

John.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 03:14:35 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: WHO's a sex Offender???
Message:
'What sort of legal system would you support?'

Since the goose is obviously a premie really scratching the bottom of the barrel(who else would do a search on Jim's cases?).

I distinctly remember m saying that GMJ's world is not a democracy.

Regards jethro

PS thanks for passing on those tapes.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:06:02 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Good for the Goose
Subject: Since when is Maharaji a defense attorney?
Message:
I would call Jim a criminal defense attorney. Even in Canada, everyone is entitled to an attorney. It's how the system works, you moron.

Maharaji has no such excuse. He's just a money-grubbing charlatan.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:03:29 (EDT)
From: Goosie Goo
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Your hypocrisy is showing, folks!
Message:
PROOF: You have been using Abi as a 'thing' to batter Maharaji.
PROOF: If someone asissts a sex offender for money--that's OK? Where is the State's family apology from Jim? Don't you care about an 11 year old girl, or is it that you don't care if she's of no use to your campaign?
PROOF: You people are deluded liars and snakes. You will say ANYTHING.

By the way, like this browser better? I'm Deborah. No, I'm Wango. No, I'm CW. No, I'm Bongo. No, I'm Bill. Better to worry about who and where I am than to face your own dishonesty, though.....

Also, Leeds are bunch of pussies, John. Man U 4 ever.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:33:46 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Goosie Goo
Subject: on being a thing
Message:
I am not.

And I really find it gross when men use the word 'pussie' to denegrate. Didn't The Lord of the Universer teach you any manners?

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:48:30 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Goosie Goo
Subject: Twit! (nt)
Message:
sss
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:40:14 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Goosie Goo
Subject: Moron..?
Message:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:12:19 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Goosie Goo
Subject: wanker Tanker
Message:
Arch hippo critter ....... forget your medication ?
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:52:57 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Goosie Goo
Subject: Nobody can 'use' Abi
Message:
She is her own person, even though I have never even spoken to her, I can tell that.

Maharaji batters himself. He is his own worst enemy. Just put up some pictures of him dancing half naked on a stage with a crown on, or just print some of the stupid things he said about being God and all, and that about does it. It shows what liars he and Elan Vital are. You don't need anyone else to do that.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:19:24 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: Liar!!!
Message:
That's a bare faced lie if I ever heard one. I have never seen Maharaji ''dance'' on stage. I saw him flap about a bit and wobble his tits.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:49:07 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Goosie Goo
Subject: Get a Grip!
Message:
You obviously don't know much about the legal system. Everyone has a right to a defense. If Jagdeo was available, he'd be the first one to hire a defense atty--that's if it's a criminal case.

If he becomes the defendent in a civil case, he will hire a litigator, legal defense, okay? Now do you understand? You're talking apples and oranges and using your anger at your Lord for being so stupid about all this and taking it out on individuals to which you have public access.

Abi is not a thing--that's the point, perhaps you can explain that to EV/Maharaj cult?

Who are you to speak about fairness? What's your Name, Address, Phone #? I presonally don't give a shit but it's just too easy to hide behind a 'handle' and spew hate and anger.

Take a deep breath....then go away...

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:55:11 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I agree Cynyhia!
Message:
Jim doesn't hang out with his clients playing cards in jail. He does his job. He trys to defend the best he can, not only for the client, but also for himself. I can not imagine what it can be like to defend some of these people, but I'm sure Jim puts all that aside(like he should) and does his job very well. The whole defence lawyer thing has been going on for so long. it's easy to make the jokes..until we, ourselves are the accused..then a guy like Jim is our only friend! Jim has to deal with that as well I imagine..these ever developing relationships with people acused of a crime, only after it's all over to see if they were ever real. thats hard on anyone.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:07:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Goosie Goo
Subject: Yes, you can be both cowardly AND stupid
Message:
You know zip about the case, don't you? It shows. By the way, why are you afraid to satnd by your words, put your name to them? Is there a reason besides the fact that you're just flailing and know that you're probably not making any sense even as you hit 'submit'?
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:48:35 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: All
Subject: William Straight....should we laugh or cry?
Message:
I can't help but comment on the staff editorial on Pia's 'It aint so' site....

It's laughable, until you realize:
1-how many people were abused and hurt by maharaji, which is now flatly denied...
2-how pathetic it is for people like Mr. Straight to lie so blatantly...this goes for Ed Hanzelik, Glenn Whittaker etc.
3-how premies from the old days can see this stuff, and blindly accept it, and not speak out and call maharaji on his bullshit...this is what shows the average onlooker just how cultish it still is-the fact that this stuff is undeniably true, and premies can't seem to see the manipulation....

Here's a few quotes from the horses mouth...

On Maharaji:

He hates mental manipulation and strongly opposes any form of cultish thinking within his work.....

He is a champion of independent thinking and has the highest standards of integrity regarding each persons continuing right to choose their degree of involvement...

OK, William, can you tell that to the former ashram premies with a 'straight' face?

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:03:26 (EDT)
From: bill, well La-ex, he DOES
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: 'hate', at least THAT is correct [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:09:59 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Re: William Straight....should we laugh or cry?
Message:
premies can't seem to see the manipulation....

The possibilities are few of why they do not see it. One, they cannot reason because they were disensitized by maharaji to accept his BS with the excusse that THE MASTER IS PURE AND WHATEVER HE DOES wrong IS THE MIND'S FAULT, yeah, sure.

Two, Premies don't want to see the manipulation because they have become needy of maharaji to the point that as I used to think, I didn't care who he was anymore but I needed him, I depended on him in my everyday life=maharaji can get away with everything. To doubt would maybe mean one has to leave him. The door is open then and maharaji has closed it, to 'ptotect' you; premies do not want to doubt. He protects a person from becoming free= he jails a person in the cult and premies feel so, so special...yuck.

Premies are not allowed by their cult leader to question the master's actions. IT IS A CULT. IS NOT ABOUT THE HEART: YOUR MIND IS MANIPULATED PREMIES!! If it's only about your heart and feeling how did you acquired your present belief system and ideas? daaa

Thanks la-ex. Good point.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:25:40 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Martin Gray
Message:
Remember Martin Gray? I remember him as an ashram premie, who I understood had spent time in India, where he received knowledge in the early 70s. Anyhow, he has a beautiful website, at:

www.sacredsites.com, that has some incredible photography.

In his biography on the site he mentions he found a 'young Guru' and lived as a monastic for 10 years and said he learned some things from that experience. He doesn't mention Maharaji's name, and appears to have 'moved on' from being a premie, pwk, and Maharaji in general, but his website is worth checking out.

Good looking guy, too.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:26:48 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: JOE: Re: Martin Gray
Message:
Hey Joe-

Yes, Martin is busy being...Martin, if you know what I mean...

He's quite a guy, and if you ever get to see his sacred sites slide show, it's worth taking it in.

Martin is quite brilliant, and quite intuitive, and quite paasionate about his work.

He believes he is being guided by some sort of higher forces, but doesn't ram it down your throat.

He's also a good bit full of himself, but all in all, is a good guy, quite a character, and one of the few people I know who is going all-out in pursuing his dreams...whatever you think of him, he is truly 'following his bliss', and for that alone, I have to reapsect him. He doesn't do anything half way and I also respect that.
He's also in tremendous physical condition.

Concerning m, he left a long time ago, after the deca thing ended, probably in 1983-4 or so.
A guy I know has traveled a lot with him and says that he doesn't talk about m at all....I think he hated him quite a bit for awhile, and has now cooled down about it.
He also had major problems with the dlm power structure, as he rose into some power himself in the organization.

It's interesting to note, as you did, how he hides his involvement with guru m....originally, in his bio on his site, he hid it completely, making his premie involvement seem to actually be some sort of intense spiritual involvement with a real guru in India.
Later he revised to be a bit more accurate about m...
I'm not sure what he thinks about him now...he gives him credit for getting started on the spiritual quest, but is not too big on him, I suppose...

It's funny how people try to explain their involvement with the guru, and attempt to 'normalize' it, isn't it?

I have a friend who recently tried to jump start his career, mainly because he doesn't have one, after believing for 12 years in the ashram that it was an 'illusion'.
He's rambled on and on, going from one meaningless job to another, basically because he missed his opportunity at a career from his ashram involvement, and figured he was 'over the hill' as far as career goes.
A friend finally encouraged him to go to a 'career workshop', and he did.
The workshop leader helped him write up a resume...he said that the premie probably had more going for himself than he gave himself credit for, and by putting all of his life experiences down on paper, it might illuminate things and empower himself a bit.

The premie did it, and came up with all sorts of interesting things like:
-childcare facilitatior for international seminars...(festival childcare)
-groundskeeper for an estate...(residence service)
-seminar/workshop leader....(satsang mc)
-experienced in 'stress managemnt' techniques...(meditation)
-familiar with working with other people from other cultures...(travelling to other countries for festivals)
-experienced 'team leader'....(brief stint as 'house father' in ashram)
-lots of experience with 'non-profits'....(dlm)

What got really interesting is that the workshop leader felt that the resume could actually be quite good.
He asked the premie to list the specific organizations where he had gotten all of these wonderful experiences, and the premie told him that he didn't want any of the names listed, as they would possibly hurt his chances for employment...

The workshjop leader couldn't understand this....
I think the premie understood ony too well...

Isn't it amazing that even after you leave m, your past involvement can still hurt you?
Not only did most people get no help with advancing their talents and abilities, but even after you leave, the past will haunt you unless you cover it up or lie about it....
The resumes of so many premies we've seen on the internet bears it out...
And m goes on believing that it is your great honor to serve him, and that it is 'saving' you...

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:07:33 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Martin Gray: Very good work /OT
Message:
Wow, impressive efforts and beautiful work.

Talk about following your dream: he's really on a roll.

In that pix with the hat he resembles Ron Howard (Opie).

There seems to be a slight messianic vibe to some of his 'requests for assistance', but given that he has really put out the hard effort to bring such beauty and information to light, I don't object.

Wonderful website. I've put it on my 'favorites'.

Thanks Joe!

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:53:25 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Looks like Joel Gray's son. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:54:00 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: He's too tall for that...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:36:08 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Another oldie
Message:
Joe,

Did you ever contact Sheldon after you found out he worked near your own office? Did you ever report back on that? Can you?

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:50:22 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Yes....
Message:
I sent him a very nice email and he didn't respond. Some time later, I passed him on the street, and he ignored me. He works accross the street from me, but it might as well be accross the country.

Sheldon, is, Sheldon.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:34:51 (EDT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Martin Gray's Guru Scam
Message:
This taken from his site:

Ongoing financial support

I am at a critical time in my teaching and leadership work. I have wonderful information to communicate, a great deal of personal energy, and a practiced ability at filling large halls, but what I need now is financial assistance so that I may take my work to a much larger level. I am speaking about partnership here. I will do the organizational, promotional and teaching work but I need significant and ongoing financial assistance to support that work. Such support can come in various forms from a monthly ten dollar bill in an envelope to a large grant from an individual or foundation. For those of you reading these writings, please open your eyes, heart and imagination to the great potential of what I may accomplish, and help me to reach those goals.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:20:15 (EDT)
From: bill-
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: he wants to rule the world [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:59:27 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Re: Martin Gray not a Guru Scammer
Message:
I don't think you can call this a guru scam. Martin is completely up front with what he is doing and why he is requesting help. Now if he asked for money to help publish a book, say, and bought a new BMW motorcycle, then you could say it was a scam. Everything I know about Martin is that he is very passionate about what he is into and not trying to deceive anyone. Let's be careful about trashing people here without knowing the facts.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:33:59 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Agree, seems like he's into ...
Message:
... some good stuff. He even has some meditation instructions on his site and is definitely doing his own thing.

It is quite common for academics, writers, researchers, etc. to seek funding for their work, and using his website to do that and being up front about it is not bad in and of itself.

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 16:00:26 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: He's really Martin Baysdow,
Message:
the 'six-pack abs' guru. Seriously though, no self-respecting academic solicits small donations with this sort of appeal. This is clearly 'extra-curricular.'

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:16:32 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott, glad to know you're still around! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:14:40 (EDT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Martin Gray not a Guru Scammer
Message:
Maybe he is..maybe he isn't...just my first reaction to request for money in spiritual pursuits..I guess it just comes down to whether there's any value in anything spiritual even for those purported to mean well

I say 'I doubt it'

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:53:32 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Martin Gray
Message:
This site looks beautiful, thanks.

I'm glad to see that someone survived maharaji hell and has done something attractive.

All the best to everyone.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 05:59:33 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: All
Subject: Anybody in the Boston area ?
Message:
I might be there soon, maybe we could go out for dinner ?
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:04:34 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Sure JM, if it aint vacation time:) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 05:54:15 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: EV
Message:
Appears to be in trouble of some sort.

What have you guys done this time, ha?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 00:27:48 (EDT)
From: BTDT
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: EV
Message:
What kind of trouble?
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:30:11 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: BTDT
Subject: Re: EV
Message:
nice try? who are u?
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 10:23:26 (EDT)
From: BTDT
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: EV
Message:
Nobody special. Just a person practicing knowledge since '74 and faithfully accepting it all. Then I found this site and understand some of the weird things I've been tolerating from some EV'ers for years. That's all.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 01:52:20 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: no answer
Message:
Still no answer from EV as to why they are registered as a church. I haven't expected one, but if there is a legitimate reason, I would like to hear it and I would think that would want to tell it. I will let you know if and when I hear from them. And I will write to them again this weekend, I think.
PS. Who the heck is C.D. over at LG? Jeez, he needs a life!
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:54:46 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: no answer
Message:
Hi timmi,

I appreciate you asking this question. Thank you for taking the ball and running with it. This, along with other inconsistences all add up to a public investigation.

Let's see how far we can go with that.

RE: CD....He's scared to answer questions. He asked you a dumb question instead of answering you because that's his style. He figures it makes him look like the thoughtful one instead of you.

Of course, no one reading the posts except for the fried fish at LG are fooled. But it's his website and in his mind, those brainnumbing comments are profound.

On the sympathetic side of the equation. Imagine how much investment those premies have, it's their repressed ego's decision to hold on to the lie to save their investment. Up to 30 yrs. Timmi, could you imagine?

That's why the exes are so impassioned over Maha's fraud. You must really confuse him, because he can't accuse YOU of being disenchanted with Knowledge and Maha's divine plan to bring peace and truth to the priviledged. He has to convine himself, for personal survival, that he's right and we're wrong. Answering questions will destroy that process.

Your question as to why people need a MASTER was spot on. They couldn't answer that one, not even in an insulting way. YOU cornered them baby on that question.

Keep up the good work. You are going help a lot of aspirants think for themselves and not dive into the Cult cesspool.

Good work

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:24:15 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: don't hold your breath,Timmi...
Message:
+

C.D. = Censorius Dictatorus [genus: cultus dementus]

Hey, CD, like get a wife, alweddy... hohoho

POlice and Parentals,

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:44:14 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: life
Message:
>PS. Who the heck is C.D. over at LG? Jeez, he needs a life!

I have one!

CD

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:40:49 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Correction: You had a life, until you met MAHA
Message:
That's the truth. Your life is his, he's got you by the balls baby.
After all, that's his motto:

First you grapb 'em by the balls,

then their head and their heart will follow

Sorry buddy, I was sitting in the same room as him when he said it.

Maha is very revealing at times.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 05:51:37 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: no answer
Message:
Timmi,

They are registered as a church so that they can run a scam of money laundering, that is why. Everyone knows this.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 02:54:49 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Is called taxes...
Message:
Not that I thought you didn't know the answer. LOL
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 12:01:44 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Definitely, taxes and reporting
Message:
Timmi,

Churches get an amazingly good deal. They don't even have to file returns with the IRS, so that no one can see what they are doing with their money. Plain and simple.

Also, they are NOT registered with the California AG's Registry of Charitable Trusts because they are a church. Most charitable organizations have to be registered and have to file certain forms with the CA AG every year, again giving some form of disclosure of their income, outgo, etc., and of course, just like federal IRS tax returns, these forms are public record. So the link I gave you was given to me by someone at the AG's office to show me that they are a church and don't have to report.

So it's tax breaks, but perhaps more importantly, almost NO accountability to their nonmembers (they claim not to have any) or anyone else who gives them money. It's so Divine! Who needs to play by rules, be accountable to anyone. It's the truth. It's that feeling. It's in your heart. Oooh la la!

love, Francesca

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:29:17 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: dat's very taxing!
Message:
but... da church's toxin = golden opportunity for a govt. investigation r.e. gross misuse of church funds, resulting in da loss of da church's non-profit status -- for funneling donations as personal cash cow for da charismatic cult minister and his fam.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 00:31:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Here's your answer, SC
Message:
SC,

This is your tongue-in-cheek post from LG. I won't post there anymore because I hate getting censored. Yesterday, CD deleted my posts where I asked premies how they might deal with the fact that Maharaji claims on his website that he isn't a leader and never wanted to be one. Yet, in the once highly-touted Peace Bomb satsang, he urges the world to accept him as just that, a leader. I posted that one twice; it got deleted both times.

I also posted a very, very angry post to CD who'd been giving Timmi shit. Timmi, you might know, is one of those unfortunates married to a premie. Can you imagine? He's in his own untouchable world. What does he think, I mean what does he really think? Is Maharaji his saviour? Is Timmi evil for trying to break the master's hold on her guy? She can't even talk to him. Sounds like a special little room in hell to me. Forget the reason, to have to compromise communication and intimacy like that with your spouse of all things! Anyway, CD told her it was great that her husband sticks to his guns and I got angry. If the kind of communication CD has to offer is what goes on in that marriage, I'm so sorry. (Sorry, as well, for talking about you in the third person, Timmi, but, well, hope you don't mind). CD deleted that post too. So, no, I won't be wasting my words over there anymore.

But here's your post:

After careful reading of all Deborah's posts on this page, I'm convinced that we are the deluded ones. I can tell from what's behind the words, if you know what I mean. I feel that she and Jim and one or two others are coming from an acute point of true perception and intelligence. They've forged ahead where we are too scared to go, they've let go of the pathetic dependence on someone else. Ok, so they get a little passionate, but why should truth and love be calm, simple and measured like you and CD? Nature isn't simple and clear at all!
I think true love and the natural order of things would be, and is, very forceful and direct like Deborah and Jim who have such love and compassion for us that they are prepared to risk losing our love and friendship in their efforts to save us from an illusion of devotion to a ****ster who only convinces us we're worthless when we're with him. Then he asks us to pay for him to go and tell other people the same thing. I've been on tour playing music and haven't been to satsang in weeks or had time to practice.
It works wonders!
I feel new and refreshed, like I've got my life and my power back, it's mine to share with who I want and I'm happy to share it with my fans. Why should some guru take all the credit for me playing good rock and roll? I want the credit! Thanks to Deborah I feel that this tour is really MINE and I'm going to spend the money on wine and more equipment instead of giving it all to EV and to sponsor all the traing session happening. I really admire her strength and courage for persisting against all you premie know alls (about love and peace) in her efforts to save just one of us. Well, she got a fish and it's me and now I'm swimming in MY river in any direction I want, hurrah! Deb, I need to get to know you more. I must. I feel I'm beginning to depend on your love and clarity, I want you every day, I hope you stay with me for years and years, I really need you. I'm prepared to pay for your love like I payed ****raji for his. I can send about $200 a week if you'll give me an address. Please send a photo, preferably a, you know, summer one, on the beach, or, you know, well, after a bath or something...when the towel slips, well, you know.....
I'm starting to fantasize already. Oh god this feels sooo goood. Thanks Deb! And Jim, just keep hammering away at these deluded morons, I know there's more souls like me just waiting for our chance to bravely go where no cowardly premie would ever go!

Don't think we haven't seen this kind of premie joke before. It's common. What's so interesting about it, though, is what it unintentionally reveals about the premie making it. Do you know how many premies, humorously or not, have asked the same question? If I don't follow Maharaji does it mean I have to follow you? or, alternatively If I don't follow Maharaji, who will I follow?

SC, the world really doesn't work that way. The reasonable alterantive to being a cult member is not being a cult member. Think about it.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:05:47 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't follow leaders;check yer parking meters... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 05:18:08 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hi Jim
Message:
I hope you aren't serious about never posting on LG again. I for one will miss you, after all, how many intelligent perceptive exes like you are there? (I'm being serious) I don't really care what you ask or what you say, I just really dig intelligent writing and expression, I've always gotten a buzz off it. Like me, you are very good with words and it's great to read, so please reconsider that decision.

You know I'm not in a cult mate, I cringe when I read the First Class messages conference called 'Positions Vacant in EV'.
The job descriptions give me the creeps, so in that sense I feel like a real outsider. I would never have gone on tour (like I am on) in the old days, would have been paralysed with fear and guilt. No, I feel great being brave and stepping outside the cult comfort zone, I did it years ago and have never looked back.
As far as Deb goes, I don't exactly want to 'follow' her. My devotion is err, a little more , um, carnal than that and I can see she's a very smart woman. That's a turn on. I think, we, as humans naturally gravitate towards those we think can provide us with something new and exciting. Pretty simple really.

Timmi should leave if she's living with a closed church lady type guy, nothing worse than that. It takes a brave person to leave but I think she'll be happier in the long run and it might wake him up a bit too.
Hope to see you back on LG soon Jim...
SC

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:40:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Hi SC
Message:
I hope you aren't serious about never posting on LG again. I for one will miss you, after all, how many intelligent perceptive exes like you are there? (I'm being serious) I don't really care what you ask or what you say, I just really dig intelligent writing and expression, I've always gotten a buzz off it. Like me, you are very good with words and it's great to read, so please reconsider that decision.

SC, those are nice sentiments. I'm surprised. I don't think I'm any clearer or more perceptive than any of a large group of exes here, probably just more impatient now than anything else, but, SC, I'm confused. The many times I've tried to engage you -- others on LG as well but you in particular -- you've laughed me off, pretending, as it were, to 'tweak' my nose rather than actually discuss things with me. Con't you remember? Now I'm not saying you didn't mean it all in good sport or something (although I think if we went and looked at the interaction that's still in the threads you'd be hard-pressed to pass it all off as light-hearted fun, if that's what you'd say at all), but the fact is you never tlaked with me. Indeed, you started talking about musical gear, etc. as some sort of filibuster, as far as I could tell. So what gives?

You know I'm not in a cult mate, I cringe when I read the First Class messages conference called 'Positions Vacant in EV'.
The job descriptions give me the creeps, so in that sense I feel like a real outsider. I would never have gone on tour (like I am on) in the old days, would have been paralysed with fear and guilt. No, I feel great being brave and stepping outside the cult comfort zone, I did it years ago and have never looked back.

SC, I agree that there's something 'grayish' about some of these issues. Surely there's a difference between the most fanatical Heaven's Gater or member of the Japanese Sarin Gas cult (I'm going to call it that from now on, they deserve it) and your average premie. And maybe you think there's a big difference between the average premie and you as well. But still, I'm well-satisfied that Maharaji is indeed a cult leader and those that follow him in any respect are, by definition, cult members.

Take the home test: can you criticize him? How? Can you really look back through his past as well as his present and detail the many things he's been wrong about, in terms of predictions, broken promises, personal excesses, character flaws, bad or confused policy decisions? Can you? I mean, I was a big Trudeau-lover but I can easily find fault in the guy in all those categories. Can you? AND -- big question -- can you do so with your real name on it?

There are other ways of approaching this but that's a damn interesting one.

As far as Deb goes, I don't exactly want to 'follow' her. My devotion is err, a little more , um, carnal than that and I can see she's a very smart woman. That's a turn on. I think, we, as humans naturally gravitate towards those we think can provide us with something new and exciting. Pretty simple really.

Are you asking me to get you her phone number? Sure. Deb?

Timmi should leave if she's living with a closed church lady type guy, nothing worse than that. It takes a brave person to leave but I think she'll be happier in the long run and it might wake him up a bit too.

You must see that that's a very harsh prescription for a long-term married person. Don't you see that? So why be so glib about it? Are you conceding that there's something non-negotiable about being a hard-core CL such that there's simply no use her even trying to get through to him? And what? Maharaji's not a cult leader?

Gotta run ....
Hope to see you back on LG soon Jim...
SC

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:38:28 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hi SC
Message:
I'll start from the bottom of your post.
No it isn't at all glib to advise someone to get out of an unhealthy realationship. I left the mother of two children and also a long term relationship after that because of these things. They were two of the hardest and most painful things I've ever done or inflicted, but all parties now agree that we are better off, especially the (now grown up) kids. So, no it isn't glib, if Timmi really loves the guy then she should shut the fuck up about what he wants to practice and believe. If it TRULY bothers her, she should split. People are so godammned scared to step out of their little compfort zone - when it's the best damn thing they can do sometimes. Sorry, I have zero sympathy for her.

Yes I've criticised M many times in my own name. I just happen to diagree with the bulk of expremie criticisms expressed here that's all. I know he said all sorts of stuff when he was young both about himself and K. I don't have any problem with revisionism, we all live our entire lives revising, honing, focussing. Anyone who thinks they don't is blind, dishonest or just plain stupid. I've also heard M being arrogant and I've freaked - and got over it. My dad and I have a similar realationship and we've grown to love one another more as the years roll,we accept the differences and focus on the common ground and it works real well. Same with M for me, the pluses are so many more in number than the minuses that I feel very well disposed both when I'm with him or watching him speak.

There's no diff between me and the average premie, because there is no average premie. For every person with K there's a different perspective on M and K. Occasionally a little clique gets formed and they all become clones and make the rest of us sick.
It happened in 1971 and it happens in 2001. I couldn't care less. Really Jim, I don't think you (and others here) realise how dramatically things have changed within the bowels of this so called cult. I believe the only finger that could be pointed like that would be at us singing arti to M at Amaroo. That looks like a cult!!! For some it was a bad shock, for others a rather lovely sentimental opportuity to sing that stuff to M'J's face, something not many of us had done except at those mega events in Kissimee. No big deal.

If something I write appears as lighthearted fun then you can almost bet that it is. I get on my computer in the best of spirits and attempt not to lose that feeling while engaging in this sort of thing. It's the unbalanced over emotional posters who are a danger to everyone and crush all vivant and goodwill with their sour whinings. In my opinion this is most definitely NOT the place to work out mental or psychological problems. Why some people persist in this madness is completely beyond me.

And I'm still amazed that CD thinks that poncy try hard guitar player is good. It galls me to think that he (CD) has this priceless collection of amazing axes while poor little me has only my trusty 82 strat and my black beauty SChecter left in my collection! I thought I'd given up playing after the last band and sold a lot of gear. I want a bloody McInturff now and I'll make the bugger sing like a Lark on ecstacy!
It's 1.30am, I think I better crash, the missus wants to play tennis tomorrow morn.
stay well Jim,
SC

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:39:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: I see, you've got David Andersen disease
Message:
Superficality going to see you through, SC? Yeah, that's the ticket.

Woman has real frustration being married to a cult member. Your answer? Leave. Nothing about ever even hoping to be able to communicate with the guy and nothing, in particular, in response to my specific question to you about that. David Andersen, I presume? (Not literally).

As for criticism of M, the only thing you mention is arrogance. You excuse his revisionism away in such a way as to exonerate him fully without any real analysis. No, it's arrogance and arrogance alone. Fine, let's look at that. Are you willing to spell out just what he's ever said or done that you think was arrogant? Furthermore, again something I asked you about but which you conveniently ignored, are you willing to do that under your real name? If not to me, how about to M himself? Is that even, in a million years, imaginable? And then what about this arrogance? Do you concede that that means that Maharaji himself is far less than perfect? That he's got much to learn as well? Can you say all that? Again, say it to him with your name on it? Further, would you agree that Maharaji is unbalanced in this way? Yes? Then why, if he's got a problem with arrogance, would you exacerbate the problem by joining the herd and singing arti to him? Don't you think that people with an arrogance problem shouldn't be worshipped as the Lord in human form? Or do you dispute that that's what arti's all about? Or are you trying to find the right kind of Andersen-style shoulder shrug because suddenly, in your heart of hearts, you know this is ridiculous? Arrogance? Arti? Give me a break, huh, SC? Like what the fuck?

As for there being no such thing as an average premie and each person having ' a different perspective on M & K', boy you really are trying to do an Andersen, aren't you? Sure, every person has their own perspective, that's right. That's why it takes five months of careful shepherding, the same videos, the same scripted presentation, the same fucking Brave New Cult everything, culminating in the same DVD imaginary insemination, the same satellite indoctrinations, with absolutely no room for any individual contact with the same cult figurehead, the same meditation techniques, the same human bodies, the same world, the same universe, the same tradition -- true or false, that's not the issue for a moment -- and you say what? Give me a fucking break, SC. You're full of it.

As for your explanation as to why you refused to dsicuss these matters with me before but rather just made fun of my efforts, sorry, dude, I'm not impressed. I can't imagine anyone being impressed with that sorry jumble of irrelevancies. Here's what you wrote:

If something I write appears as lighthearted fun then you can almost bet that it is. I get on my computer in the best of spirits and attempt not to lose that feeling while engaging in this sort of thing. It's the unbalanced over emotional posters who are a danger to everyone and crush all vivant and goodwill with their sour whinings. In my opinion this is most definitely NOT the place to work out mental or psychological problems. Why some people persist in this madness is completely beyond me.

This has nothing to do with what I asked you which was how can you complain about my leaving when you didn't talk with me seriously when I was posting on LG. Why not go back and read my original question again if you sincerely want to answer it? This, SC, is no answer.

And you're right. That site CD linked to is a joke. Bad taste or what?

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 04:45:43 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Loser
Message:
Common Joke? You just dont get it.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:16:36 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Cat,da official spieling = 'looser'
Message:
like 'hang loose', dude. ya know, like da 'whiners'/da 'loosers'. hohohehehaha
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 21:48:23 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Reality Check
Message:
Actually I'm Salam?????. The thing for me is that this is getting incredibly boring. The 'victim' is badly advised. The gallery are deranged and I couldn't be bothered. The facts are that the club here is getting nowwhere. It is like a flea on an elephant. My opinions are based on my training which is the equivalant of any so-called 'experts' here. Heller is the only person here qualified to speak on pedophiles. He defends them so understands the hopelessness of pursuing a legal result. He certainly is NOT qualified to comment on Civil law strategies and as such I would be litigating against him if I was ill-advised. By the way just because I dont tell you what I do for a quid and because I get lazy with my spelling doesn't mean I'm on the dole queue. I might even have a Degree or two?
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:40:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Cat, you should see yourself!
Message:
You're really too much, fella. Like some very ditzy, long past-her-prime drunken ho' sitting in a bar showing a little leg. As if, Cat! You have some degrees? Good for you. What are they? Oh you can't tell us? Yawn!

Your presence here is worth less than zero. And yet you spend so much time here. What do you tell your friends (assuming you hve some)? That you're a ghost on a forum of former members of your cult? That you've been posting here for years but have never gotten past the frightened sneer phase of denial?

My guess is that you don't have any friends. Everything about you shouts 'pathetic loner'. Am I warm?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 09:02:21 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You dont get it do you?
Message:
Now Jim , that's just derogatory. And I can do the same old any old day of the week. Here's a fact to stew on. I am hell bent on building a case against you. My angle is that you are abusive and stalk people on the internet. I am a legal professional so let's dance you Galapapagos Tortoise. Here is the rub. You think with the backing of a bunch of lunatic ferals you can say what you want with total impugnity.Money talks Jimbo. Bullshit walks. Let's tango...
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 13:46:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Is that a threat? Try again
Message:
What are you talking about? 'Stalk people on the internet' my ass. You're just a cowardly and ugly cult member who can't find anything rational to say in his cult leader's defence. Your only option is to sneer and threaten. First it was the baseball bat, now it's what? A false report that I'm stalking people? What a joke you are!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 21:06:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Here's your answer, Richard2
Message:
Look Jim, your beef is you believe EV covered up the Jagdeo situation -- yes? If Jagdeo is convicted, that clears the way for Susan et al to take EV to court on charges of covering up the affair. You see Jim, that is your (i.e., those acting in the interests of Susan, et al) job, not EV's, to prove EV culpable. Do you think EV is going to take itself to court after they made statements, which I believe were made by sincere people, that they could not find anything supporting Susan's claims? Get real Jim.

You miss the whole point, Richard. You say 'if Jagdeo is convicted' ... but Jagdeo will never be 'convicted' (you mean 'found liable')! How could he be? Can't you see that? It's a bullshit claim, a bullshit lawsuit.

Assuming, for argument's sake, that there really is a lawsuit. (I haven't seen one. Have you? Is EV going to produce a copy of the pleadings? Ha!) But, even if there is something file, so what?

Well, the next step is to serve Jagdeo. Doesn't sound like EV's too hopeful on that score, does it? Here's what they say:

When confronted with the allegations, he left the ashram and has not been seen since.

But, fine, let's assume that a) there really is a lawsuit and this isn't just a lie; and b) EV serves Jagdeo and the game begins. Then what?

Don't you see, Richard, then nothing? There is not case without the witnesses and EV doesn't have any! End of story. The whole thing's a sham. Worse, it's a pathetic sham designed to fool, not the outside world which a) isn't exactly getting papered to death with this press release as far as I can tell and b) would see through this in a second. No the sham is to satisfy premies who just want something to happen, no matter how ridiculous, just so they can stick their thumbs in their ears and fingers in their eyes again.

If the courts establish that Jagdeo did in fact perpetrate the crimes, there is clearly a much stronger incentive to go after EV for a cover up. It's simple linear logic. It is not until a crime is proven to have been committed that there is the resolve to investigate allegations of a cover up. Do you think Nixon would have been in trouble if no proof of a burglary had been established?

Oh, you're absolutely right. But so what? The case is stillborn because, like I said, no defendant and no witnesses. It's just silliness.

So get off your ass and do something instead of continuing to flog your dead horse Jim.

Do something? Like what? Find Jagdeo? Get a couple of witnesses together for EV in India? What?

Another thing. It is clearly inappropriate for EV or anyone else 'offical' to make an apology before Jagdeo has had his day in court. In the eyes of the courts it has not been established that a crime has been committed yet. It would be unfair knowing a court case is imminent for EV to assert his guilt by virtue of making an apology. You should know that if you were any kind of a lawyer and had any integrity!

Here's where you really show how dumb you are. EV has, by its press release, admitted that Jagdeo was an abuser. If there really is a lawsuit filed in some court somewhere, all the better. It's EV's admission that counts. Once they've taken that step there's nothing left for them to do but apologize. The proof's already there. Just ask Linda Gross.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 02:14:23 (EDT)
From: Richard II
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And mine
Message:
Here's where you really show how dumb you are. EV has, by its press release, admitted that Jagdeo was an abuser. If there really is a lawsuit filed in some court somewhere, all the better. It's EV's admission that counts. Once they've taken that step there's nothing left for them to do but apologize. The proof's already there.

The press release states that legal action has been taken against an alleged felon. That is clearly not an admission of anything. If what you said were true, then anyone charged with a crime by the state would by virtue of the charge be considered guilty. As you know Jim, that is not the basis for common law.

As for your expected cynicism regarding EV's intentions, it's just Jim Heller speculating about things he knows very little about. I guess like the rest of us you'll just have to wait and see.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:43:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard II
Subject: No, Ricahrd2, you're wrong
Message:
Filing the lawsuit, or even claiming they have, cements EV's position. They must, by definition, be asserting that Jagdeo's liable (TRY, please, to keep criminal law out of this. This is about a civil lawsuit, nothing more.) Sure, amybe he isn't liable, but that doesn't change the fact that EV is claiming under oath their belief that he is. See?
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 19:15:14 (EDT)
From: Richard II
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: No, Ricahrd2, you're wrong
Message:
Yes EV has enough cause to believe Jagdeo is responsible for the alleged offenses to file a civil suit. But that doesn’t mean it is a given that a formal public apology is appropriate at this time, over and above the overtures of goodwill that have already been turned down. IMO there are other factors that come into play.

I find it hard to stomach how the ex-premies, including the principles in the case, divulge only those details to the public that make Maharaji and EV look bad. With the recent press release, it is clear to everyone that there is another side to the discussion that is conveniently left out by the ex-premies. Of course the reason for that is blatant. Besides being a reaction to not being in control of the agenda, the principles are being influenced by the rest of the pack to use the situation to try and make Maharaji look as bad as possible. People like you Jim. Sweet, level-headed people like Deborah, and Cynthia, and gerry. And Marianne, the cause for all seasons. Then there’s Joe, who wins the prize of the millenium for the premie who understood the least what Maharaji was saying. Not a hell of a lot of integrity or honesty expressed here Jim.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:25:29 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Richard II
Subject: Not to make M look as bad as...
Message:
possible: HE IS BAD: HE INVADES PEOPLE'S BEINGS AND IT NEEDS TO BE SAID TO WARN OTHERS!

You like it? I assume you are a premie, needy of the guru, so, go ahead. Live the dream but also make an effort to understand that other people may be seeing something you are missing. Maharaji is a son of a bitch! Don't answer. I don't have time to come back to you.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 05:07:25 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Richard II
Subject: '( *( '( %( #( @( $( !( ?(
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 22:41:52 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard II
Subject: My, How Sarcastic...
Message:
EV/Maharaji is a cult. I don't expect you to understand. You don't have the reasoning power because you are still under the influence of cultic brainwashing. Maharaji has brought this upon himself and how his ass is in the sling. With everything he has taken, which includes allowing a pedophile to roam freely ANYWHERE in this world, he owes something to these women and men.

You don't agree. So be it. Go do pranam goomraji and sing arti and meditate. You have nothing to offer here. You have lawyer envy. You wish you were a lawyer that's why you needle Jim.

You malign people here to get into arguments. You are living an unproductive life. Go and Enjoy! Tell your cult leader what you tell us here.

Carbon copy everything you post straight to the big M, make sure you count your words, though, I hear he has a limit to how much he can read. Send it to the PR and Legal Depts. of EV, too. I'm sure they will appreciate your help.

You're a wannabe, a cult member. I'm not. See the difference?

Cynthia Gracie

P.S. What's your name?

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 03:34:56 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Richard II
Subject: A suggestion
Message:
Wouldn't it be nice if Maharaji himself set up some sort of charitable organisation for the victims of sexual abuse, especially child abuse, where premies who have children who have been hurt could be helped, offered therapy and support. I think that Maharaji should become proactive in reaching out to the victims of sexual abuse, express some sort of public concern about these awful things and try and help as many victims as possible. He could, out of the kindness of his divine heart, offer support and love to all those who have been hurt within his organisation.

But I suppose R2(D2) that you think I am being manipulative by suggesting this...

Frankly, I don't think that Maharaji cares. But I can't help wishing he did.

Abi

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 13:22:10 (EDT)
From: R2
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: A suggestion
Message:
Sounds like you would have preferred a house to therapy Abi. Maybe the other 4 or 5 victims would feel the same way. Then what?

'...express some sort of public concern'?? You mean you want him to do the politically correct thing in the eyes of the public? Then Elan Vital would look good, you’d be happy, and Maharaji could get on with his work without the drag created by this issue. Hmmmm, I think EV should hire you for their PR team Abi.

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 23:24:45 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: and what's wrong with wanting compensation?
Message:
R2:

Their lawyer talked with me at length and over several weeks knowing full well that I did not have any legal representation. He asked me what I wanted and I said I wanted to assurance that Jagdeo was out of circulation, that EV had fully investigated him and found him and that I wanted security for me and my son. Call me a foul, greedy, manipulative, under-hand bitch all you want.

I have a record of correspondence between me and the lawyer EV hired which makes it clear that I did not refuse therapy. The offer came with a list of conditions some of which I found disconcerting, especially in the context of several other suggestions previously made.

Thankfully I finally found a lawyer.

I was trying to negotiate those conditions via my own lawyer when Dr Valerio Pascotto phoned my father and then soon after the EV lawyer spoke to my father at length. Instead of dealing with my lawyer and me directly they decided to go behind my back, and my lawyers, and put pressure on my father to put pressure on me to accept their conditions. Instead of phoning my lawyer who is also in the States, they chose to call my father in Australia. I think that is underhand and manipulative. I have since written to the EV lawyer asking him if EV are willing to pay for me to see a therapist and he has not responded. Instead they have distorted the negotiations in a press release which is designed to warn me off from ever going to the press.
As far as I know they have also neglected to respond to my father's letter to the EV lawyer which asked that the phone offer be put in writing. Their lawyer assured my father that they were willing to help me in specific ways. However, none of that has ever been put into writing.

I am going to wait to hear from the EV lawyer and from my own. The EV lawyer has not replied to my e-mails requesting therapy. I shall wait for a week and if I still haven't heard from them I can only assume that nothing they have ever offered was made with good-will.

Trash me all you want Richard 11.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 00:51:58 (EDT)
From: R2
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Hey, it's done every day
Message:
Call me a foul, greedy, manipulative, under-hand bitch all you want.

Abi I didn't call you any of these things. Would you prefer if I did? No, I pointed out how silly you looked asking for a trust fund for therapy when it was reported you rejected therapy in favor of a house. You can refute the contents of the press release if you want but it did look rather odd. And please don't project your frustrations with the EV lawyers on me.

Look Abi, if you want compensation go for it. But you cannot have it both ways. If you get a big settlement, you will undoubtedly look like an opportunist to some. If you except that, fine, but then are you going to spend the rest of your life defending yourself on the ex-premie forum? Or worse, join the other ex-premies making claims the only reason the big bad cult settled was to buy your silence.

I asked you many times what you need to heal and you have yet to provide an answer. That's fine if you don't want to answer but it is a valid question. Therapy I'm sure could help. If you think you also need to punish, well give it a shot.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:19:32 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: Really, R2?
Message:
Look Abi, if you want compensation go for it. But you cannot have it both ways. If you get a big settlement, you will undoubtedly look like an opportunist to some.

Sure, that's always the case. There are always 'some' who'll think that in any case where there's substantial compensation. Question is, is that what you will think? Are you part of the 'some'?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 12:14:13 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: Richard II, UNCALLED FOR REMARK!
Message:
Richardii,

You stated the following in the first sentence of the above post:

Abi I didn't call you any of these things. Would you prefer if I did?

The implications of that statement are so derogatory and demeaning on that basis alone you owe Abi an apology. Your sarcasm isn't amusing in the least.

You are a bully in the worst way. You have no conscience, no empathy. You bring nothing but negativity to this site. Don't forget the statement above which says this is a site for ex-premies.

Do you really think it bothers me that you are calling me names? That, R2 is laughable. You aren't even worth the laugh, but I can't help it because with all the resources here, you STILL remain in a cult.

Wrap your mind around that for a while instead of bullying someone who is vulnerable.

You probably need anger management therapy, R2,

Cynthia Gracie, NOT AFRAID OF YOU!

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:31:06 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: the EV anxiety
Message:
which you expressed so well in this post just struck me again.

EV are wary of me because they think that I will not honour any sort of agreement they make with me. They are wary for several reasons.

Any agreement I sign is frought with legal problems because I am in Australia and they are in America. They would have to find a way of binding me which overcomes this.

Also they are wary that if I sign an agreement now when they are not convinced that I am 'healed' they know that there is probabaly a legal loop-hole I could slip through if I chose to not honour the agreement. That loop-hole has something to do with the state of my mind when I sign any agreement.

All of this and more comes down to an anxiety about my association with the dread ex-premie community and the fact that I am now posting. They are paranoid about my agenda because of this. In fact they are so paranoid that they think I was negotiating with French communists!

But I also think their paranoia is an excuse to treat me badly because they hate the way I have spoken about their Master. If I said 'I love you Maharaji, plesae teach me devotion', publically denouced all ex-premies as evil beings who have exploited me, then maybe they would make some sort of move.

But in my heart of hearts I don't really think so because the crime I have committed is speaking out against Maharaji and I don't think I will ever be forgiven for that.

I should be meak and mild, I should be a passive little victim. I should behave. I should do as I'm told by the men in EV.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:12:54 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: where's your answer
Message:
to my post below in your 'too fucking much!!!' thread?

And who are you Richard 11 and who has sent you here and how well do you know Charles and Linda Gross, and Valerio Pascotto and Marcia Lietner.

I think you are a coward for not telling me who you are.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:02:55 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: Re: Hey, it's done every day
Message:
You asked me 'what I need to heal' and I never responded??? Shall I spel it out again for you Richard.

I grew up worshipping Maharaji with all my heart. I prayed to him every day. I meditated an hour before school, on the school bus, as muc as I could during school, and an hour before I went to bed. I went to satsang as other as possible. Lived for seeing maharaji at festivals and kissing his feet. I did fundraising for him. My mother made his children toys. I had an alter to him in my bedroom. And so on and so on. Gosh, I just wish he'd speak to me. He spoke to my father about me. I asked to speak to him but apparently he only speaks to people who love him.

Speaking to Maharaji would help me heal.

Having therapy to heal from the sexual abuse and it's effects on my life which have been very damaging would help me heal.

Being offered compensation in recognition of the damage the abuse created would help me heal. I've detailed the effects it has had. It's not very pleasant. Sometimes I'm surprised I didn't end up dead like my brother.

Having Jagdeo brought to account for what he has done to me and others would help me heal.

It's very basic really. Other 'churches' have done the right thing before. Why can't Elan Vital?

Can I say once again I did not reject therapy in favour of a house.

I can prove it if necessary, Richard.

And yes, I think it would nice if Elan Vital did something to help the victims of sexual abuse within it's organisation. Took responsibility for their strange Indian Mahatamas, people like Padarthanand for example. These men are abusive. They exploit the power they have been given. Women have been raped. That is wrong, wrong, wrong.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:54:46 (EDT)
From: R2
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Thank you
Message:
And to partially satisfy your curiosity, I am nobody official and speak only for myself. I am not Charles Glasser. I'm afraid I do not trust the ex-premies enough to be more specific. People like Jim, maniacs like Deborah and Cynthia, I have seen how they can stop at almost nothing to get revenge for airing your views.

What are your claims against Padarthanand?

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 14:23:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: WHAT??????????
Message:
People like Jim, maniacs like Deborah and Cynthia, I have seen how they can stop at almost nothing to get revenge for airing your views.

'Stop at almost nothing'? What's that supposed to mean? Specifically, please!

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 04:56:51 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: R2
Subject: No thanks
Message:
Oh sure, Richard 11. You present yourself as a tough guy and you're scared of Deb and Cynthia? And you're scared of Jim too? Sorry, don't buy it at all. In fact I am sure that you would only reveal yourself in order to provoke someone into making what you would read as a threat so that you could take legal action against them.

You do not speak for yourself. You speak for an organisation. I do not trust you.

What are my claims against Padarthanand? 'I do not trust' YOU 'enough to be more specific'.

You scare me. You are nasty.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:03:36 (EDT)
From: Richard 2
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: No thanks
Message:
My thank you was sincere Abi. It's a shame your paranoia has gotten the better of you. You've misread me. Cheers.
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 00:33:04 (EDT)
From: BTDT
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: and what's wrong with wanting compensation?
Message:
Pascotto as in Linda Pascotto, one of EV's head participation people?
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 09:38:44 (EDT)
From: XYZ
Email: None
To: BTDT
Subject: The Pascattos
Message:
Pascotto as in Linda Pascotto, one of EV's head participation people?


---

The Pascatto brothers, Valerio and Alvaro, are from a very wealthy Italian family, and have been closely associated with Maharaji for over 25 years, coming and going from M's house without special permission, over the years. They were both initiators at one time.
Linda Pascatto got her last name by marrying Alvaro in Malibu about 16 years ago. Back then she owned a multimillion-dollar home off Busch Drive, and Alvaro moved in. She is the heiress of an American food-processing mogul (like Folger or Nestle). All three people are way above average in intellegence. Why they are still with M is beyond me, unless the 'perks' of their 'privileged' PAM status has severely blinded them.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 11:13:37 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: XYZ
Subject: Re: The Pascattos
Message:
How funny. Valerio told me he didn't have much contact with Maharaji. I guess he was lying. I wonder what else he was lying about.
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 02:05:49 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: BTDT
Subject: Dr Valerio Pascotto
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 23:43:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, this post and your other below rock
Message:
R2 is several rungs below you on the evolutionary ladder. You have to remember that. He can neither think nor emote as clearly as you. He can't remember as well either. He's suppressed, repressed unblessed and a mess.

You, on the other hand, rock.

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 06:09:13 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: R2: artists formerly known as URL/Nil? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 09:43:25 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: A suggestion
Message:
oh, but then he would have to go find all those buxom young blondes he had Dettmers arrange to wait for him at the four seasons in his reserved room, and he would have to make amends to them, first. He'd have to start with the man in the mirror, wouldnt he?
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 09:52:29 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: A suggestion
Message:
Good point Janet...yes he would have to start with the man in the mirror...as we all do...

Which would make a good letter to him that could address these issues...maybe starting with the broader theme of helping alleviating suffering that he CAN help with(because he created it, and can, with some truth telling, clean much of it up), simply by 'coming clean' about his past and making amends for it....

Maybe something along the lines and tone of 'Posties' wonderful letter to m, suggesting how to make amends for his harmful actions from the past...

I'm serious...a thoughtful, compassionate letter could be a powerful addition to EPO....part 'postie', part 'MRC' etc.....

Comments....

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 10:23:46 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Re: A suggestion
Message:
yeah. let's do it.
pathetic how we even have to spoon feed him how to do it.
there needs to be a 'guru's anonymous' 12 step recovery network. he needs a sponsor, to show him how to work the steps.
can ya see it? a GA network of meetings for recovering Gurus--each one, teach one?

'Hi--I'm Krishnamurti, and I'm a recovering Guru'
Hi krishna'
'I've been normal for 20 years now, and i still have to watch myself every day to remember that I'm nobody's saviour, and only a higher power can help me make amends for all the things i did when i was in my addiction'
'I'm Osho, and I'm a recovering Guru-holic'
hi Osho
'I just want to do some 5th step, here, and say that I admit to myself, the higher power, and at least one other person--you- that I have made a list of all the people i harmed and am ready to have those weaknesses removed. I am humbly asking for help in working on that'
'thanks, Osho'
'uhhh, I'm Prem Pal...and I'm , ahh, new to all this..'
'hi prem pal'
'I'm, ah, just coming to the realization that my life is outta control..you could say that the more I tried to control everything, the worse it got...and I, uh...guess I'm gonna need all the help I can get with learning how to, uh, give up control and learn how to clean up all the mistakes made when I was, uh....practicing Guruism. I don['t have a sponsor, yet, so if any of you feel you could help me, I'd uh...well, I'll be around after the meeting looking for someone to talk to. That's all for now'
'thanks, prem pal'
'hello, I'm Maharishi, and I'm a recovering guruholic'...

its an idea whose time has come.

let's see--
it would have to have submeetings, led by experienced members from

sexaholics anonymous
gambler's anonyous
spenders anonymous
alcoholics anonymous
emotions anonymous
and probably
overeaters anonymous, too

it's do able.
wonder who could get it started.

I think krishnamurti was the Bill W of gurus.

maybe the dalai lama?

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 18:04:58 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Krishnamurti was a hypocritical windbag
Message:
Krishnamurti was about as hypocritical as I am when I keep saying I'm outta here but never leave. The consummate guru for people who just learnt from their guru that they don't need a guru. And a major bore to boot. Talk about going on and on and on and on saying nothing about nothing! Talk about saying it with a constant exaggerated sense of self-importance! Krishnamurti my ass!
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 04:22:31 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Don't you mean R2-Detour? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 11:54:16 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: don't want to take that particular detour ;)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:22:12 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: David Horsford -- still a premie?
Message:
David Horsford succeeded me as Elan Vital community coordinator in Washington DC in 1979. Before that, he had been coordinator in Gainsville, Florida. His sister Debbie was also a premie and I knew her in San Antonio.

Anyhow, around 1981, David got an ashram sister in a 'family way' and they were banished from the ashram and got married. Anyhow, go to the following site and see David today, a successful Acura salesman, who has put on a few pounds and his hair looks darker, but it's definitely him.

http://www.rosenthalacura.com/index-welcome.html

Anyone know if David (or his sister) is still a premie (sorry, a PWK?)?

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 20:09:28 (EDT)
From: A Friend
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: David Horsford -- still a premie?
Message:
Debbie Mills (Horsford married) and divorced Ed Mills and has 3 children. She is an energetic healer in the Miami area. She 'walked' about 10 years ago, and celebrates her freedom from the Mahaha .
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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 00:15:12 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: A Friend
Subject: Don't quite understand -- is that the Debbie
Message:
... that married Horsford that you're talking about? She and I lived in the ashram together in Playa del Rey (LA area) in 1980. I was the outgoing ashram coordinator and she was the incoming. I got transferred to San Francisco and didn't see her after that.

Horsford had come to LA as community coordinator before I left. I heard that they got romatically involved and that she married him. So if that's the Debbie you're talking about, and if you are in touch with her, give her my love. I am glad to hear that she is an energetic healer, and that she walked, and that she has been free of the cult for so long. Thanks for the news.

Francesca Reitano

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 16:48:13 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: the horsford files
Message:
I think the genealogy goes something like this:

David Horsford has a sister who is/was a premie.
She maried Ed Mills, had 3 kids, and lived in asheville,nc.
They divorced abut 5-8 years ago.

David himself was the cc in wash dc, until he got a very pretty sister pregnant and left the ashram and got married.
This was obviously a great scandal at the time, but was probably the best thing that happened to either one of them.
I think they have 2 kids, and live in the dc area.
David is a successful car salesman/manager.
I think he gets to drive m around dc when m visits...david alway sdid have a way of getting around the power circles...my guess is that he is happy to still do this, but beyond that, has very little desire to do much with m...

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Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001 at 17:07:19 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Thanks, la-ex
Message:
Dear la-ex,

Think you're probably right. The two Debbies is the problem. As I recall, this other person who married Horsford was also named Debbie. We used to call him 'Horsefeathers' when he was the CC, I forget whether we told him that, but I wasn't around long after he came to LA.

How long have you been in LA? I was there 1974 through 1980.
Did service in the DUO office with Eric Rheinemer and Kevin.
Was ashram coordinator when Booth Dyess was cc, and Jessie was treasurer, and then when Steve Price was cc, and Marc Lerner was cc. Then they 'retired' me and Debbie came in, and Horsefeathers came in somewhere. Can't keep it all straight. I went to Berkeley and San Francisco in 1980, moved out of 'shram in 1982.

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 23:26:20 (EDT)
From: la-e
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: David Horsford?--I think so...
Message:
Joe-

I know that David kind of hangs with a group of premies in DC that are known as the 'in crowd', or at least used to.
Consisted of the more successful types, and were generally thought of as a bit snobbish.

I don't think he attends any public videos...he may watch a few in his house...

I do know that anytime m comes to DC, it's generally David who chauffers him around town....someone told me that he's still into it, but toned down quite a bit....I think he uses his connections from years ago to get the 'plum' services when the maha arrives....

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 14:53:10 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-e
Subject: David Horsford
Message:
Well, I guess it would make sense that he could drive HIMSELF around, seeing he is a car dealer and has access to luxury cars.

One of the things that always made me sick about both DLM and Elan Vital, was that you got the good or exaulted service by who you knew, who you were in good with, and possibily how much money you had. A meritocracy it was/is not, which partially explains how wasteful and inept it is, and why so many premies hate Maharaji's organization.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 22:01:24 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Why don't you email him and ask him
Message:
I noticed that he has Contact Us email link> I was really tempted to click and say HEY DAVE, YOU STILL A PREMIE? in the subject. But I don't know him personally. Although I do recognize his face.

Or: You can email him and tell him that his meet the staff page has broken links (which is true)

If he was my friend, I'd email them.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 17:37:30 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hey, check out LG
Message:
CD is trying to censure all words that aren't premie coated. So I'm trying different words.

Give it a shot. Let the asshole censure every word. You can't say Maharaji because Maha is censured. So, it says ****raji.

What a bunch of moroons

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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 17:06:28 (EDT)
From: bill really Deborah? CD took
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: the 'ultimate' and just left 'ruler'? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 10:51:21 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Hey, check out LG
Message:
Also new on LG is a count of visits for each poster, the count is directly under the browser type.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:09:26 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Correction to above
Message:
The visit count is not for each poster but for each individual post, I believe.
[ ]
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 15:11:11 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Another correction
Message:
There is no attached link for the above message, not sure how that happened.
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Date: Fri, Aug 10, 2001 at 02:57:40 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Linda Gross and
Message:
all EV personnel call 'him' THE SPEAKER'.

WHAT A BUCH OF DILUSSIVE ASSES...

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:13:50 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: that is rich
Message:
****raji? poor CD! Wish I had more time to 'help' im in the middle of work but taking a peek. go for it deborah.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 18:25:43 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: so is M
Message:
now *aharaji? There is something disclosureish about that. As in aha

Ok back to work .

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 19:00:26 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: so is M, It is So!
Message:
Hi Selene and Deborah,

I can't stomach that place. Have fun, Deborah! Sounds like a wordsmith's nightmare!

Love,
Cynthia

P.S. Mahaha is SUCH AN ASSHOLE! LOLOLOL!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 21:54:06 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: ARE WE HAVING FUN YET?
Message:
Did you ever? I couldn't help myself. I mean, I haven't wanted to leave any messages there, but that was too much fun to pass up.

Someone in a post said to CD that they need to secure the border.

F*** these guys are not too institutionalized. But I guess they figure it's good to come here. You know, their F****** D*** of a MASTER owns the Universe. ****raji rules.

Hey FA & JHB, this is not funny :(

Bye,

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:00:20 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji Report: Foundation for Religious Freedom
Message:
I found this interesting report on Maharaji online by the Foundation for Religious Freedom. you can find it at: FORF.org/Groups.html

It's a very interesting analysis and surprisingly accurate:

Elan Vital (Divine Light Mission): Elan Vital grew out of Sant Mat (literally, the way of the saints), a nineteenth-century spiritual tradition which developed in Northern India. One of the goals of the movement was the instruction of the world in a type of yogic meditation technique that was said to connect the devotee to the universal primordial Force through meditation on the Holy Name (Word) and on the Divine Light and which pervades everything.

The Divine Light Mission was founded by Shri Hans Maharaj Ji. When Hans Maharaj Ji died (1966), he was succeeded by his youngest son Prem Pal Singh Rawat, who was initiated at the age of six and who, two years later, was recognized as the new 'Perfect Master,' an embodiment of God on earth and hence an object of worship and veneration, assuming the title of Maharaj Ji. When his father died, he was commissioned as the one to take the Knowledge to the world. Although he became officially the autocratic leader of the Mission, his whole family shared the authority because of his young age.

In 1971, Maharaj Ji made his first visit to the West, after having been invited by some Americans who became initiates while in India searching for spiritual guidance. Against his mother's wishes he went to Colorado, where a large crowd heard his first set of discourses given in America. A considerable number of people were initiated, and the American headquarters of the Mission was established in Denver. By the end of 1973 several hundred centers as well as over twenty ashrams had emerged, and two periodicals, And It Is Divine and Divine Times were begun. However, in November 1973, the Mission suffered a major reverse because of the failure of 'Millenium '73,' an event organized to celebrate the birthday of Maharaj Ji's father and the beginning of a thousand years of peace and prosperity. The event had been scheduled to take place at the Huston astrodome, and all of the movement's resources were invested into the event. When the anticipated large crowds of people failed to manifest, the movement fell into deep debt which effectively crippled it.

After the Millenium '73 fiasco, the Mission gradually withdrew from the public scene. Many followers left the movement and many ashrams were discontinued. A number of ex-members became critics of the movement, attacking it with charges of brainwashing and mind control. Maharaj Ji himself was described by the anticultists as immature and unfit to be a religious leader, and his teachings were condemned as lacking in substance.

The movement also suffered from internal problems within Maharaj Ji's family. Mataji, Maharaj Ji's mother, disapproved of his life-style and of his marriage with his secretary Marolyn Johnson, whom he declared to be the incarnation of the goddess Durga. After accusing her son of breaking his spiritual disciplines, she took control of the Mission in India by replacing him with his oldest brother. In 1975 Maharaj Ji took his family to court. He received control of the movement everywhere but in India, where his brother remained the leader. By the end of the 1970s, an estimated 80 percent of the followers had left the Mission. In the early 1980s Maharaj Ji ordered all of the ashrams disbanded, and he was no longer to be venerated as God. When the Divine Light Mission was disbanded, the organisation Elan Vital was created in order to relate Maharaj Ji to his students on a one-to-one basis and to support his travels in 34 countries worldwide.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 17:09:49 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Interesting: 80% of premies left the cult
Message:
I thought it was interesting that this report said 80% of premies left the cult by the late 70s.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:23:39 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji Report: FORF
Message:
Wow. That's interesting. i tried to get to website to learn why it was written but it says NOT FOUND.

Can you tell us more about it? Is this something EV would have written for themselves?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 15:25:04 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: ABOVE, don't know where LINK came from [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 09, 2001 at 16:22:16 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Here is the link
Message:
http://forf.org/GROUPS.html
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