Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Aug 23, 2001 To: Aug 27, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Joe -:- Are premies homophobic? -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:59:40 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- I don't think so.. none that I know are [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 10:59:44 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- Re: Are premies homophobic? -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 06:01:55 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- some are, some aren't -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:30:59 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re:we know the fat bastard is... -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:53:10 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Re:we know the fat bastard is... -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 09:41:50 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Too small a sample size -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:10:55 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Re: Are premies homophobic? -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:00:55 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Please contact GLAAD, Joe -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:09:09 (EDT)

AS I said -:- It's only time CACA -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:56:06 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- A wee bit more content, if you please [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:02:20 (EDT)
__ __ AS I said -:- been doin some readin -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:26:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ [Blank] -:- an a bit of zippin -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:07:51 (EDT)

Jim -:- A basic theological problem -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:19:19 (EDT)
__ The Devil -:- Re: A basic theological problem -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 15:39:37 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Aren't you just part of the QC team? -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 16:01:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Aren't you just part of the QC team? -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 19:23:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ The Devil -:- Oh, shit, I blew my cover! -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 19:24:45 (EDT)
__ TED Farkel -:- It's kinda like this, Mr. Heller.. -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 12:44:13 (EDT)
__ Bob -:- Re: A basic theological problem -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:43:09 (EDT)
__ Carl -:- The premise is flawed, I think: -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:26:10 (EDT)
__ cq -:- God-Devil:2 sides of the same (counterfeit) coin -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:10:44 (EDT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Re: A basic theological problem -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 10:37:58 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- ::Pascal is C's Pretty Sister -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 14:54:56 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: A basic theological problem -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:17:04 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Re: A basic theological problem -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:28:01 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yeah but ....... -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:34:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Lucifer is misuderstood -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 08:09:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- :: primate misdemeanor :: -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:54:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :: primate misdemeanor :: REPRISE -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:19:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Jim's got flu. What's your excuse, Chris?;) [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:39:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- And ANOTHER question ... -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:41:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jorge -:- In a nutshell.. -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 09:50:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Satan means adversary in Hebrew (OT) -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:05:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jorge -:- Re: Satan means adversary in Hebrew (OT) -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 13:19:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :: night gallery :: -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:01:02 (EDT)

btdt -:- M's UK days -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 00:50:27 (EDT)

[Blank] -:- p.s Selene -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:14:33 (EDT)
__ [Blank] -:- Re: p.s Selene -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:18:54 (EDT)
__ __ Selene -:- whew that was close -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:06:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ [Blank] -:- Re: whew that was close -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:13:43 (EDT)

Salam -:- reposted from below on the advice of Zelda -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:54:04 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- :: yawnni :: -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:20:04 (EDT)
__ __ Boris' phone number -:- Moscow 795-915-1594 [nt] -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:26:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Moscow 795-915-1594 -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 17:01:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Moscow 795-915-1594 -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 17:09:17 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: :: yawnni :: -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:30:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Anyone speaks russian here -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:26:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- scrap dat -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:30:47 (EDT)

Internet Informer -:- CAC -- Beware -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:48:58 (EDT)
__ bill burke -:- 16 jay street wethersfield ct usa [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:47:14 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- 16 Field Street Torrington CT USA -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:57:30 (EDT)
__ Brian Smith -:- SO WHAT! -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:05:58 (EDT)
__ The Ghost of F7 -:- Waddya mean SO WHAT? -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:04:18 (EDT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Let me explain -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:29:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You explained it very well, Brian -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:52:33 (EDT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Re: Waddya mean SO WHAT? -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:32:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Good to hear from you Brian -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:49:28 (EDT)
__ __ sushi -:- trembling -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:52:39 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- :: not :: [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:06:22 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: CAC -- Beware -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:55:44 (EDT)
__ __ Internet Informer -:- Re: CAC -- Beware -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:57:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- :: bring it on :: -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:01:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: CAC -- Beware -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 19:08:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- They are extremely slippery -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:59:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Internet Genius Type -:- Thought they were asleep -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 20:43:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Re: Thought they were asleep -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:01:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Stop scaring me -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:06:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Omerta (ot) -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:27:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::insert S&W endorsement here:: [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:59:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ The Ghost of F7 -:- Bad things -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:38:14 (EDT)

janet -:- so what happened?? -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:27:40 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: so what happened?? -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:32:24 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- Re: so what happened?? -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:46:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- The Truth About Maharaji -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 12:45:58 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: so what happened?? -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:06:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: so what happened?? -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:50:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: so what happened?? -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 05:29:48 (EDT)

Timmi -:- more questions and stuff -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:10:20 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- :: bad news on the doorstep :: -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 20:36:45 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- REPOST - :: bad news on the doorstep :: -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 20:45:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Whadda ya mean.... -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:32:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Whadda ya mean.... -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 16:47:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- Also repost RE charanamrit water -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 10:56:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ test -:- nt -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 13:56:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- God, is that funny!! -:- Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 00:40:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- ghee smurf? devotion plasma? -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:16:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :) [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:51:42 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- Charanamrit; holy water from feet of M -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:30:55 (EDT)
__ __ Timmi -:- Re: Charanamrit; holy water from feet of M -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:46:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Charanamrit; holy water from feet of M -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:52:24 (EDT)

Joe -:- CAC Allegations -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:12:08 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Re: CAC Allegations -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:12:23 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- As they still say in Canada, right on! -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:23:36 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- To be accurate, Joe -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:57:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Half a Point, Richard -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:05:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Half a point -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 20:06:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Patrick Wilson -:- No shame in remembering crazy premie types -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:59:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Exactly Patrick -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:22:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Ya Patrick -- I think that...! -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:55:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: No shame in remembering crazy premie types -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:06:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- David Smith wont care 'cause he has goats eyes. [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:57:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- beautifully said, PatrickW -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:51:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::: G R E A T P O S T ::: -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:25:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- i read my bio to my live -in girlfriend -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:45:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Isn't it time you married that woman? -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:20:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: ::: YES, G R E A T P O S T ::: -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:40:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :: DS more wooden == is that possible? :: [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:42:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Natural consequences -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:31:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- OK Jim, I'll say it -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:42:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: OK Jim, I'll say it -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:07:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: OK Jim, I'll say it -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:13:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Style, Intent and Who Has Control, Anyway? -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:58:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- Seville: It Tea -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:26:52 (EDT)
__ __ Salam -:- Re: As they still say in Canada, right on! -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:54:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Hey Salam- your post deserves its own thread- [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:07:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ wimp -:- when you write to... -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:41:04 (EDT)

a0aji -:- :::message in a bottle::: -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 12:57:52 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- :: she wasn't banned from here -- my mistake :: [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:44:11 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Deb and I are banned from LG, not here -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:01:18 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: Deb and I are banned from LG, not here -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:51:39 (EDT)
__ salam -:- why is she banned? -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:19:18 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: why is she banned? -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:27:54 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Re: why is she banned? -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:27:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Re: why is she banned? -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:36:41 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Back from vacation in the US -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 12:19:18 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Re: Back from vacation in the US -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:51:31 (EDT)
__ bill -:- Re: Back from vacation in the US -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:58:47 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Yeah I think it's Mili, too [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:11:23 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Hi Jean-Michel -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:45:32 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Hi, J-M, hope you had a good vacation -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:34:41 (EDT)
__ silvia, afraid of maharaji's POWER -:- Here is your page at CAC -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:03:53 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Here is your page at CAC -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:08:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Georgette H. -:- Perhaps COMBAT would like to do a follow up [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:06:07 (EDT)
__ __ Roger AK eDrek -:- Glad you slipped through the U.S. dragnet -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:39:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Nice work, comrade. -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:54:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ silvia, afraid of maharaji's POWER -:- I do, and admire your courage -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:32:14 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: Back from vacation in the US -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 12:29:35 (EDT)
__ __ Timmi -:- Re: Back from vacation in the US -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:18:09 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Back from vacation in the US -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:10:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- good to see you here -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:23:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: good to see you here -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:31:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- I just e-mailed you -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:42:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::tnx I will:: [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:47:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- don't you talk to me like that -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:15:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::Lcueless in eSattle:: -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:32:18 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:59:40 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Are premies homophobic?
Message:
It is very clear that the reason a couple of the targets on the CAC web site were chosen is because they are gay. In those two instances they make a big deal of mentioning that fact. In my opinion, that's why the two openly gay men attacked on that site were chosen. I can't see any other reason.

Way is about the most ethical and respectful person I have ever encountered. And yet HE was chosen as a victim, I think, only because he's gay.

I think for the same reason Patrick was chosen.

Unlike Dettmers and some others, neither Way nor Patrick had damaging information about Maharaji or his cult, and only expressed their own experiences and opinions.

I think the perpetrators of that hateful site chose their victims carefully.

How comfortable are premies with this kind of homophobia. Michael Dettmers has told us that Maharaji often engaged in homophobic jokes. Dennis Murphy, Maharaji's cook for a number of years, told me personally that Maharaji often made fun of gay people.

So perhaps the homophobia starts at the top.

Patrick and Way, did you contact GLAAD about that website?

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 10:59:44 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I don't think so.. none that I know are [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 06:01:55 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Are premies homophobic?
Message:
i think its more a case of just looking for any 'dirt' in the tabloid eyes of the moral majority. I dont think maha is homophobic, i have heard him tell gay jokes 'melts in the mouth not in the hand' - and he teases the patrick mccracken rather affectionately and has been heard repeatedly trying to get him married, even promising patrick a dowery.

I think the CAC thing is just gutter press scandal-mongering, and when there is no scandal - they have to imply or find one. I mean why would Mike Dettmers be a threat to young hockey players ? They are heavily armed.

Loaf

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:30:59 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: some are, some aren't
Message:
M may be but that doesn't mean that all premies are. I knew a couple of very sweet gay premies, one of whom died of AIDS years ago. And bisexual and lesbian premies too.

But the point is that CAC displays homophobia. I bet if they put a woman up there they would trash her as a slut or a lesbian. It's not very sophisticated stuff.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:53:10 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re:we know the fat bastard is...
Message:
now I'll bet you THERE's some blond trade he hasn't sampled yet. woo hoo! and he calls himself a connoissuer of the good life......
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 09:41:50 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: Re:we know the fat bastard is...
Message:
check your e-mail.
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:10:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Too small a sample size
Message:
Joe,

I'm sitting here enjoying what must be the flu virus you had and inadvertently sent me in email. Laurie was just speculating that CAC's anti-American because, beside Dave, who was FA, of course, and thus in a class of his own, target-wise, all the Worst Alleged Cyberstalkers are American. Too small sample size, girl!

Look, I know you're itching for your own page on CAC. But you'll just have to wait. They're apparently following a geographical / alphabetical index that won't take them back to California until later this week. That's just my guess anyway.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:00:55 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Are premies homophobic?
Message:
By the way, if you don't, I will.
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:09:09 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Please contact GLAAD, Joe
Message:
I haven't had a chance (too busy) to write an explanatory letter to GLAAD to go with the info about the other Patrick Conlon yet but I saved the original page which mentioned him and I will see if I can interest them.

I never actually thought of the homophobia in connection with myself (and it never occurred to me about Way until you mentioned it) other than that B was using societal prejudices against communism, guns-nuts, gays, porn, drugs etc - picking on the most vulnerable aspects of my life which I freely shared because they really don't bother me because I live in SF but which a nazi minded nasty paranoid person like B knows would not play well in Peoria.

Most of the planted hints about all the exes named was stuff like that - deliberately playing up to middle-class prejudices against slightly unusual and individualistic people. I haven't gotten too fired up about the gay angle because I guess I've always known that (outside of SF) that's my achilles heel.

Actually I'm at a loss to know the criteria for including people on CAC other than maybe we all talk too much and tell too much about ourselves. I really don't understand Way's inclusion. He is so much more circuspect than me and I have never heard him gossip irresponsibly or be nasty the way I have. I think his inclusion may be triggered simply because he is openly gay. But I am at a total loss to see why Jondon was included.

We've all got our theories. Jim's got his alphabetical/geographical one. I've got my Brit one (if you're interested I'll send you a copy of an email I sent Jim today about that.) Also Jim raises the fact that all but one are Americans. Oh, and a Frenchman of course but they're all iffy.

Jim and J-M I can understand (they picked some very vulnerable people there - everyone hates vets and lawyers - that's a joke cw) and isn't J-M Jewish too? Two Jews, two gays. Yep B must be a nazi or at least so paranoid that he thinks everyone is as insecure and narrow-minded as he is.

Sorry you got a bug, Jim. Ever heard of the South African cure? Put a hat at the foot of your bed and drink a bottle of brandy. When you see two hats you are cured. Okay so you'll have a terrible hangover.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:56:06 (EDT)
From: AS I said
Email: None
To: All
Subject: It's only time CACA
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:02:20 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: AS I said
Subject: A wee bit more content, if you please [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:26:17 (EDT)
From: AS I said
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: been doin some readin
Message:
russian Ministry of Telecommunicatio

an am thinkin of goin and seein the Old Volga, u commin.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:07:51 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: AS I said
Subject: an a bit of zippin
Message:
I wonder what's here
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:19:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A basic theological problem
Message:
Sitting around last night with a couple of buddies someone mentions a problem he's got with God. God, he asks, can send you to hell, right? There, you'll be put through, well, hell, of course, by the devil and that will suck, right?

Yeah, I said. That's certainly the way I understand it.

Then here's what I don't get, he says. Isn't the Devil just playing along, co-operating even, with God? Doing his dirtywork, so to speak? So why's the Devil going to do that for God if they're supposedly enemies, he asks.

Beats me, I answered.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 15:39:37 (EDT)
From: The Devil
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A basic theological problem
Message:
It's like this, Jim. God sends me the sinners, then I put them through hell. I torment them like, well, hell. This DOES piss off God! You see, God loves everybody, except me of course. Then why does he send them to hell you might ask? I don't know. God works in mysterious ways, as it's said. If you don't understand something, it's always good to fall back on that adage.

Anyway, so God sends me rotten souls, me, his sworn enemy. Now, you figure if I'm God's enemy why would I do his bidding? It's a good question, and remember, God DOES work in mysterious ways. But in this case there's no mystery really, because if it wasn't for me, everybody would do the right thing. You see, I tempt them into doing evil deeds. Without me tempting them, they'd be pure as the driven snow.

So, it's kind of like God fulfilling a sort of bargain I have with him. He can keep the souls that don't succumb to my temptation and I get all the rest. Then I torment them because that's my thing. I like fire and I like watching things burn in it. This pisses God off because he sees how much fun I have burning his creation. Capiche?

See you soon.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 16:01:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The Devil
Subject: Aren't you just part of the QC team?
Message:
Mr. Devil,

When God sends you someone, wouldn't you be better off just letting them go, or letting them play with the chicks, or something, just to piss God off? I mean, it's not as if he's got anywhere else to send them if he wants to get them good or anything. You're it, baby! So why don't you just fuck with God on this one?

I don't know, man. This system's been going on for how long? You guys pretend you're all enemies but really you've got the whole cosmos covered between the two of you. Looks pretty damned -- sorry -- pretty well slick, of you don't mind me saying so.

BTW, where's Jesus in any of this? Is he able to intervene either with you or his heavenly father? Who should we be praying to? Frankly, it sounds as if we might as well pray to you. For one thing, youv'e got the chicks, like I say, but also, well, you've been around. You, of all people, should know what it's like to feel the burning shame of fucking up. You're the one who's gonna understand that, aren't you? More than some fucking God who, well, thinks he's God, for Pete's sake.

Hm, that reminds me, what about Pete and all the other saints? Any point praying to them? Maharaji? Who?

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 19:23:50 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Aren't you just part of the QC team?
Message:
Jim, I like you. I'm gonna have a special place for you when you arrive. Heck, I think I'm even gonna make you my right hand man! I'll let you in on a little secret. All those premies and their fucking 'experience'? Well, they haven't experienced anything yet. They're actually a lot like me, y'know. I don't care about right or wrong as long as I get mine. That's why I don't give a fuck if I'm playing into God's hands. As long as I can burn the motherfuckers once I've steered them from the straight and narrow, who cares? And Jim, I've already explained to you that everybody would be pure as the driven snow if it wasn't for me, so effectively, all God is doing, reluctantly I might add, is living up to his part of the bargain. But back to that little secret. You think Maharaji is the Lord Of The Universe? Well, you did, but you wised up. But anyway, guess who's little scheme that one was? Uh, huh, you got it, your's truly. And all the suckers who think they've been saved by the 'Lord'? Hee, hee, I gotta tell you, Jim, there's nothing like the look on a premie's face when they see what all that idolizing of the 'Perfect Master' (my idea too) finally gets them. It's a scream. You're gonna love it. And one other thing, Jim, for you, all the chicks you want. But don't start grinning too much. Laurie's heading the other way, to The Big Guy. You can't have everything, y'know.
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 19:24:45 (EDT)
From: The Devil
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Oh, shit, I blew my cover!
Message:
Fuck!
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 12:44:13 (EDT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's kinda like this, Mr. Heller..
Message:
Hey there Mr.Heller-

Ole TED'S glad to see ya back online these days.
Sure am sorry to hear about your theological dilemna...especially comin on the heels of that 'Big CAC Attack' that they put on you...

Ya know, me and some of the boys down here at the TRAC Center talk bout that kind a stuff all the time here, especially after a few foamies and a nature video or two...

I even asked Dave Smith bout it the other night, but ole Dave told me that he don't specualte on anything of a spiritual nature because his lord and master maharaji says it all for him, period.
(Ya know, Dave went into that ole rap where he says something like 'why would you want to hear me play a lousy violin, when you can hear a master play a perfect one?'...)

So, sorry to report, no help on that front.

And the Raja, well he only talks bout stereo stuff and hot cars...we sent him down to the transmission repair shop, but he wasn't too interested in old pickup trucks, tho he did take a likin to that young biker gal who was changing the oil...she's been comin to the 'ladies night/free foamy/wet t-shirt night' that we've havin to bring in them hordes of aspirants which seems to be happenin all over the world, xcept here in the States, for some reason...well, the raja took a likin to that oil change gal, specially after the wet t-shirt part of the aspirant video, and had a little personal satsang with her out back...went on for a long time, lots to talk about, I reckon...I guess he's allowed to do that, being the lords, er, speaker's brother and all that...so I guess he's not interested in your spiritual dilemna either.

Well, them two's bout the wisest fellers I can think of...most of us at the TRAC Center are just lowly peons in the premie world....funny how we all used to be kinda happy proud of ourselves before we took the knowledge...now we all feel like worthless jerks, but that's OK, as I've been told that it's all part of the process of havin the lord, er, speaker, work on our egos so that we can then be right and ready to recive his further divine outpouring of grace and wisdom...kinda like that honey and the bee stuff that Mr. Conlon put online today...certainly was inspiring, wasn't it Mr. Heller?

Oh well, gotta go and finish that new outhouse we're puttin in for the lords, er, speakers divine hiney to plunk itself on, if he ever decides to grace the TRAC Center with his divine butt...

I'd send ya a few bucks for all your troubles, but I just lost my shirt, and pants as well, on that 'holy fmaily action figure collectible set' with Mr. eDrek....

I got a small bone to pick with that Mr. eDrek, but it can wait, as I see he's on that 'CAC Attack' list too...

You take care, son,
TED Farkel

Ya ever think that ole Boris might be the devil, doing the speakers, er, lords work for him?

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:43:09 (EDT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A basic theological problem
Message:
Our lords prayer: 'and lead us not into temptation...'
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:26:10 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The premise is flawed, I think:
Message:
Why do humans persist on 'anthropomorphising' these cosmic or moral dichotomies? Like 'God' is an all-powerful ultimate fellow (like a guru) with an attitude problem, as if he would 'send you' to hell (what, buy you a ticket and see you off at the station?), or the 'Devil' is a similar being (fallen angel Lucifer), with a grudge against the other guy.

Sorry, I just don't think that the premise is valid to begin with. It seems that the culture has some penchant for creating these fairy tales to try to control itself. I suspect it is a primitive urge that reflects the way creation is created, i.e. ying-yang polarities, so-called positive and negative charges or forces. The Judeo-Christian thing of making it 'personal' with big scary bogey men strikes me as puerile.

I've heard it said that heaven & hell are here on earth, that we create them by our actions and attitudes, God & Co. being morally neutral energies. Makes sense to me.

Cheers,
Carl

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:10:44 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: God-Devil:2 sides of the same (counterfeit) coin
Message:
God and Devil - 2 sides of the same (counterfeit) coin

From the Book of Job 1:12

1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
1:7
And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up
and down in it.
1:8
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth
God, and escheweth evil?
1:9
Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
1:10
Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his
substance is increased in the land.
1:11
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
1:12
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of
the LORD. 'And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of
the LORD.'

Isiah 45:7
'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things'.

.
.
.
.

It's not about God and Devil, Jim, it's about human beings' power over other human beings (I was going to say Man's power over Man, but why be sexist?)

God, Devil ... both archetypes for humanity's projections. Unfortunately, some people identify with being agents of God or agents of Devil ... that's when the trouble really starts.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 10:37:58 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A basic theological problem
Message:
Interesting stuff, Jim.

The way I see it, and this comes from many years of trial and error, God is somewhat like the sun. You can sing and dance the praises of the sun, and it may help you feel better or your crops grow, but when you try to blame the sun for your crop failure, it doesn't seem to accomplish much.

I agree with Pat that Zoroastrianism is very interesting. It's one of the oldest religions and tackles the problem of good and evil head-on. This is it's central theme. God (Mazda) is sometimes seen as the force of good, sometimes as the all-encompassing universal force.

I jump to Buddhism - I'm currently reading The Tibetan Book Of The Dead - Robert A. Thurman translation. Some excerpts:

For even the most diehard materialist, Pascal's famous 'wager' is still compelling: If we become nothing after death, we will not be there to regret having prepared for something. But if we are something after death, and we have not prepared at all, or are badly prepared, then we will long feel bitter, painful regret. So we have everyting to lose by not preparing, and nothing to gain: we have everything to gain by preparing and nothing to lose. Should our preparation be for nothing, a little time spent on it in this life will not be regretted for eternity. Should our preparation be for something, the time taken away from it for the sake of this life's business or pleasure will be deeply regretted for eternity as the waste of a vital resource. (Page 26)

This translation also has an interesting discussion about karma, translating it as 'evolution'.

I just bought a King James translation of the bible and have read the first three chapters of Genesis. From Genesis 2:16 - 2:17:

And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'

O.K. I'm not 10 years old any more. I see now that this relates to free will having a lot of responsibility attached to it. I also see that all religions, from Taoism to ancient Egyptian mythology to Islam etc. say similar things in different ways. Chinese thought focused on living a good life in a microcosmic sort of way, talking at great length in the I Ching, for example, about the minutiae of keeping a balance between the opposing forces of Yin and Yang. Christianity seems to be more macrocosmic, talking about things such as Armageddon. Same cake, different vantage point.

All the best, Jim

Steve

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 14:54:56 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: ::Pascal is C's Pretty Sister
Message:
For even the most diehard materialist, Pascal's famous 'wager' is still compelling: If we become nothing after death, we will not be there to regret having prepared for something. But if we are something after death, and we have not prepared at all, or are badly prepared, then we will long feel bitter, painful regret. So we have everyting to lose by not preparing, and nothing to gain: we have everything to gain by preparing and nothing to lose. Should our preparation be for nothing, a little time spent on it in this life will not be regretted for eternity. Should our preparation be for something, the time taken away from it for the sake of this life's business or pleasure will be deeply regretted for eternity as the waste of a vital resource. (Page 26)

---

No.

If you're sure it is a waste to prepare, then to not prepare is to
preserve the only measure of eternity that there is, for what there is.

In other words: life is short, and nothing after: don't waste what
little there is in preparation for what isn't and can't be.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:17:04 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A basic theological problem
Message:
Your friend hasn't studied Zoroastrianism.
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:28:01 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A basic theological problem
Message:
Sitting around last night with a couple of buddies someone mentions a problem he's got with God. God, he asks, can send you to hell, right? There, you'll be put through, well, hell, of course, by the devil and that will suck, right?

Yeah, I said. That's certainly the way I understand it.

Then here's what I don't get, he says. Isn't the Devil just playing along, co-operating even, with God? Doing his dirtywork, so to speak? So why's the Devil going to do that for God if they're supposedly enemies, he asks.

Beats me, I answered.


---

No.

The Devil offers you rewards God won't offer. It's more like
two competing businesses, across the street. God offers you
rewards for being good. The Devil offers you rewards for being
bad.

The Devil's rewards are better, but you must do (and enjoy doing)
evil, to get them.
Watch 'Devil's Advocate' for a better explanation than that.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:34:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Yeah but .......
Message:
I know that the devil solicits and God doesn't (although wasn't that Jesus' whole trip? Come down here and solicit?). Okay, so the devil's trying to entice you and, I guess, trick you so ...what? So he can get you in hell and laugh at you forever?

I don't know about any of that but, tell me, isn't it true, yes or no, can't God get pissed off enough to send you to hell? And if he's done that isn't he just counting on his enemy, the devil, to do his bidding? Put it this way, if God DID send someone to hell, wouldn't that be the poor soul's best chance of getting the royal treatment there, just so the Devil could piss God off?

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 08:09:29 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Lucifer is misuderstood
Message:
Read

PRince Lucifer - A Biography of the Devil

by Simon Staughton

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:54:20 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: :: primate misdemeanor ::
Message:
I know that the devil solicits and God doesn't (although wasn't that Jesus' whole trip? Come down here and solicit?). Okay, so the devil's trying to entice you and, I guess, trick you so ...what? So he can get you in hell and laugh at you forever?

I don't know about any of that but, tell me, isn't it true, yes or no, can't God get pissed off enough to send you to hell? And if he's done that isn't he just counting on his enemy, the devil, to do his bidding? Put it this way, if God DID send someone to hell, wouldn't that be the poor soul's best chance of getting the royal treatment there, just so the Devil could piss God off?


---

Oh I don't know; I'm hardly the expert on Hell.

Hell is a place; the Devil is a person (an angel) (a fallen angel).

So it stands to reason God can send you to Hell whether the Devil
resides there or not.

I think in medieval times, Hell became what we think of today;
prior to that I don't think it was nearly as pejorative a term.
It was simply that place that was 'away from God' -- kind of like
what secular living is, for those who can't get into the God thing
(anymore).

The Devil gets pleasure from destroying others; that's the trick
angle. Everything else is basically a straight deal with the
Devil; you get what you pay for. Your destruction is the 'and
then some' factor. ;)

I wasn't going to watch 'The Devil's Advocate' and then I thought,
'Well, that's silly -- didn't hurt Al Pacino any, to *play* the
god-damned devil. Why should it hurt me to *watch* him play it?'

I think there's something in the primate brain -- that responds to
ritual -- that elaborates on something else in the primate brain --
that reacts to certain viscera, when viewed. A primate skull is
part of our iconography -- we see it, we react to it. I don't
know when in development that gets formed, or if it is avoidable.

But I think we confuse sex and death and viscera and get it all
mixed up, and there's plenty of fear there. We're a primate
line that only recently got smart; and it is only through an
elaborate set of discipline rituals that we overcome anything
of our (separate) base nature(s).

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:19:21 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: :: primate misdemeanor :: REPRISE
Message:
I wasn't going to watch 'The Devil's Advocate' and then I thought,
'Well, that's silly -- didn't hurt Al Pacino any, to *play* the
god-damned devil. Why should it hurt me to *watch* him play it?'


---

This, of course, should have read:

I wasn't going to watch 'The Devil's Advocate' -- but then I thought, 'What the Hell -- didn't hurt Al Pacino any..'

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:39:26 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Jim's got flu. What's your excuse, Chris?;) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:41:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And ANOTHER question ...
Message:
If the Devil can trick you to get you, why is the only thing God's got to save you from that terrible fate, his mouth? The devil's got every last ability to morph into different shapes, to bring on the chicks (I DID see 'The Devil's Advocate') and all God's got is his mouth. Which you don't really hear anyway, you're supposed to hear him in your heart or inner ear or something!

Why is God as helpless, then, as your mom telling you when you're ten not to play too hard with your younger cousin's new toys? I mean, maybe you'll listen and maybe you won't. What's THAT all about? Is it just a matter of God trying your conscience, to see if it's strong enough? Well what if it isn't? Whose fault is that, anyway? And why doesn't he just build stronger ones? Shouldn't God be giving you even better than average treatment if he's going to put you through all that embarrassment of having a faulty conscience? One that can't understand him properly even though he never says anything and you have to hear him in your heart of all places??

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 09:50:27 (EDT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: In a nutshell..
Message:
Dear Jim:

The devil is a christian invention.
In judaism God creates both good and evil inclinations in man, giving us free will to choose between them.

Hell is only temporary. A place of purification rather than punishment. Once you are done there, you can go to heaven.

Just a little trivia that might interest you.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:05:02 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Satan means adversary in Hebrew (OT)
Message:
Have you read the story of Bontse Schveig? (from 'A Treasury of Jewish Folklore'.)
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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 13:19:43 (EDT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Satan means adversary in Hebrew (OT)
Message:
No I have not, but in jewish tradition, 'ha satan' more than a specific angel, is rather the role of adversary to man that the angel plays at a specific moment. For example, the story of Balaam's ass where an angel is sent to him as a 'satan' to prevent him to do wrong (curse Israel); and of course, the more familiar story of Job.

On a side note, some ultra orthodox rabbis I know, speak quite highly of Freud, but but say his work was incomplete, stating that he focussed almost exclusively on the 'yetzer hara' (evil inclination), and comented next to nothing on the 'yetzer tov' (good inclination).

I lent them my video copy of '2001 A Space Odyssey' a couple of weeks ago. I was surprised that they loved it. Life is truly stranger than fiction.

Jorge

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:01:02 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: :: night gallery ::
Message:
If the Devil can trick you to get you, why is the only thing God's got to save you from that terrible fate, his mouth? The devil's got every last ability to morph into different shapes, to bring on the chicks (I DID see 'The Devil's Advocate') and all God's got is his mouth. Which you don't really hear anyway, you're supposed to hear him in your heart or inner ear or something!

Why is God as helpless, then, as your mom telling you when you're ten not to play too hard with your younger cousin's new toys? I mean, maybe you'll listen and maybe you won't. What's THAT all about? Is it just a matter of God trying your conscience, to see if it's strong enough? Well what if it isn't? Whose fault is that, anyway? And why doesn't he just build stronger ones? Shouldn't God be giving you even better than average treatment if he's going to put you through all that embarrassment of having a faulty conscience? One that can't understand him properly even though he never says anything and you have to hear him in your heart of all places??


---

Human beings have an innate sense of aesthetic. The way it works is
that the mind percolates choices, more or less at random at first,
but also will bring up the more recently accessed choices one has
considered (with some success) during previous percolations (like
a coffee pot percolating).

The aesthetic selects from among several percolated choices.
Parents (or God) merely guides us towards ones seen as advantageous.
That's the reprogrammable part.

The 'voice of God' is nothing more than our sense of aesthetic,
which does seem to transcend birth and death, to an inexplicable
degree (as though the template of Who We Are is part and parcel
of being born; as though the body carries knowledge in its
structures passed on through dna and other sequences that manifest
as our body and its structures). I forget who (Jung?) called this
a collective unconscious. It was meant to be taken as something
that carries across, simply by being born into the world --
unearned knowledge of some kind.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 00:50:27 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: All
Subject: M's UK days
Message:
A bit ago, someone posted about the time Maharaji spent in the UK before he ever came to the USA.
This is interesting to me because I never really thought about that time span. Does anyone have input about those days? It makes me wonder if the currency exchange rate was bad-which I know it was for US conversion into pounds at that time, so maybe his standard of living was easier to attain in the US. Or were the laws easier here to set up DLM? Bigger country with no borders to cross via state to state vs country to country.

I have to wonder what the pams are being told these days to keep them inline? They are the true devotees and the rest of the sheep are just there to fill in for event lowly work, propagate and send in monthly contributions? Still trying to comprehend being considered a 'loser sheep premie' in the eyes of EV. Wonder where that attitude could have possibly come from?

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:14:33 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: All
Subject: p.s Selene
Message:
am trying to locate the number. Don't panic, give a minute or two.

the headless phantom

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:18:54 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: [Blank]
Subject: Re: p.s Selene
Message:
got it. Now stand back everyone in case is blows.

There goes nothing.

BBbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...b....z..........

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:06:52 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: [Blank]
Subject: whew that was close
Message:
And to think I would have cut the blue wire.

I got a long ways to go heh? But next time the ghee must be purified more purely. Will do the trick then I think.

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Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:13:43 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: whew that was close
Message:
now that I have been put back together, I forgot to say. I was walking my dog the other night and I found and arti try. No kidding. A full blown arti tray, with a candle holder in the middle.

Beats x-mas puddings in august :):):)

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:54:04 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: reposted from below on the advice of Zelda
Message:
Joe,

I have visited boris several times, read his site and did few queries.

stopcyberstalker is owned and run by Boris. He is either an unemployed person, works part time or has someone else helping him. This is a charade and I don't believe that there are many people involved.

to begin with, I don't think it is the work of Glasser or EV. This is an individaual group of people composed of Boris, his wife and most likely some of the same people that owrked on Pia's site.

The site itself is hosted by da.ru a very strange and ambigious ISP. In fact da.ru is most likely not an ISP but a sub zone dynamic name service. It is very likely that it is a wholesale reseller of webhosting for register.com, which is a registrant and an ISP in the USA.

As for the contents of Boris's site, well it is made to confuse you and point you to the wrong direction. I have read somewhere what you have quoted, it is a lot of garbage.

the people that run the show at CAC are a bunch of amatures, they have no idea or a clue about what they are doing. they are hiding behind the fact that we all think that the site is hosted in Russia when in fact it is in the USA. I am not sure what contract condition does register.com gives, but that is easy to find. for those that live in the USA please contact them and enquire. The plug could be on your side. And hey the legal crap that's on their site was compiled by a lawyer, only it is not Charles but Boris's wife. How many lawyer female in America are

Cat, my fiancee, is American; she is a criminologist, she travels a lot, but manages to spend a lot of time her with me here.

married to a Russian. Jim check your register.

Don't be threatened, blackmailed, intimidated...etc by those idiots. They can be tracked down.

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:20:04 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@hafey.com
To: Salam
Subject: :: yawnni ::
Message:
Here's a few standard lookups (nslookup, traceroute, whois):

$ nslookup
> www.stopcyberstalkers.org
Non-authoritative answer:
Name: www.stopcyberstalkers.org
Address: 195.2.70.38

> 195.2.70.38
Name: jam-slb-1.msk.zenon.net
Address: 195.2.70.38

$ traceroute jam-slb-1.msk.zenon.net
traceroute to jam-slb-1.msk.zenon.net (195.2.70.38), 30 hops max, 38 byte packet
s
5 564.at-5-0-0.XR2.NYC8.ALTER.NET (152.63.26.62) 156.238 ms 148.492 ms 153.
453 ms
6 182.ATM7-0.GW3.NYC8.ALTER.NET (152.63.18.181) 154.639 ms 137.887 ms 157.6
60 ms
7 apscom-gw.customer.ALTER.NET (157.130.14.70) 295.218 ms 288.388 ms 291.81
8 ms
8 m9-2-fa0-0.msk.zenon.net (195.133.62.5) 309.905 ms !A 314.909 ms !A *

$ traceroute jam-slb-1.msk.zenon.net
traceroute to jam-slb-1.msk.zenon.net (195.2.70.38), 30 hops max, 40 byte packet
s

14 121.at-5-0-0.TR1.NYC8.ALTER.NET (152.63.2.166) 124.056 ms 124.455 ms 123.
903 ms
15 285.at-1-0-0.XR1.NYC8.ALTER.NET (152.63.19.189) 113.206 ms 113.905 ms 112
.144 ms
16 183.ATM7-0.GW3.NYC8.ALTER.NET (152.63.18.173) 123.777 ms 123.323 ms 124.5
86 ms
17 apscom-gw.customer.ALTER.NET (157.130.14.70) 259.091 ms 258.319 ms 257.69
2 ms
18 m9-2-fa0-0.msk.zenon.net (195.133.62.5) 261.439 ms !X 264.772 ms !X *

http://www.networksolutions.com/ (whois)

[Network Solutions(R) -- the dot com people(TM)]
Registrant:
OOO 'Zenon N.S.P (ZENON2-DOM)
1-ja Jamskogo Polja str.,19
Moscow, Russia 125040
RU

Domain Name: ZENON.NET

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
Zenon Hosting Dept. (ZH3376-ORG) domreg@ZENON.NET
Zenon N.S.P.
1-ya Yamskogo polya, 19
Moscow
RU
+7 095 9561380
Fax- +7 095 2515702
Billing Contact:
Zenon Billing Dept. (ZB193-ORG) bills@ZENON.NET
Zenon N.S.P.
1-ya Yamskogo polya, 19
Moscow
RU
+7 095 9561380
Fax- +7 095 2515702

Record last updated on 17-Jul-2001.
Record expires on 23-Jul-2003.
Record created on 22-Jul-1997.
Database last updated on 24-Aug-2001 13:04:00 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS1.ZENON.NET 195.2.64.38
DNS2.ZENON.NET 195.2.83.38

Organization:
Boris Kontchalovski
Boris Kontchalovski
12 Trubnaya Uliza
Moscow, 103045
RU
Phone: 795-915-1594
Email: Kontchalovski@johndoes.org

Registrar Name....: Register.com
Registrar Whois...: whois.register.com
Registrar Homepage: http://www.register.com

Domain Name: STOPCYBERSTALKERS.ORG

Created on..............: Tue, Jul 24, 2001
Expires on..............: Thu, Jul 24, 2003
Record last updated on..: Fri, Aug 10, 2001

Administrative Contact:
Boris Kontchalovski
Boris Kontchalovski
12 Trubnaya Uliza
Moscow, 103045
RU
Phone: 795-915-1594
Email: Kontchalovski@johndoes.org

Technical Contact:
Register.Com
Domain Registrar
575 8th Avenue
New York, NY 10018
US
Phone: 212-798-9200
Fax..: 212-629-9305
Email: domain-registrar@register.com

Zone Contact:
Register.Com
Domain Registrar
575 8th Avenue
New York, NY 10018
US
Phone: 212-798-9200
Fax..: 212-629-9305
Email: domain-registrar@register.com

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS1.ZENON.NET 195.2.64.38
DNS2.ZENON.NET 195.2.83.38

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:26:40 (EDT)
From: Boris' phone number
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Moscow 795-915-1594 [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 17:01:21 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Boris' phone number
Subject: Re: Moscow 795-915-1594
Message:
It's more like 7-095-915-1594 .. I think he probably filled out the
form incorrectly. I could not find a 795 area code in the US or
abroad... but Moscow is 095 (I don't know exactly what that
corresponds to; there's also a '+8' in there, so it may be like
this:

1-8-7-095-915-1594

That's my best guess, based only on what I posted earlier. Look
at the Moscow number for the other entity (Zenon maybe; I don't
have it in front of me). You'll see the 095 thing.

Seems likely (though by no means certain) that Boris lives in Moscow.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 17:09:17 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: Moscow 795-915-1594
Message:
It's more like 7-095-915-1594 .. I think he probably filled out the form incorrectly. I could not find a 795 area code in the US or
abroad... but Moscow is 095..


---

Forget that 8 -- that is the # of time zones away Moscow is from here!

From where I live, it's probably dialed as:

011-7-095-915-1594

011 - international direct dial prefix (from eastern USA)
7 - Russia
095 - Moscow (city code)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:30:03 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@hafey.com
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: :: yawnni ::
Message:
:: new material appears after quoted material ::

Here's a few standard lookups (nslookup, traceroute, whois):

$ nslookup
> www.stopcyberstalkers.org
Non-authoritative answer:
Name: www.stopcyberstalkers.org
Address: 195.2.70.38

> 195.2.70.38
Name: jam-slb-1.msk.zenon.net
Address: 195.2.70.38

$ traceroute jam-slb-1.msk.zenon.net
traceroute to jam-slb-1.msk.zenon.net (195.2.70.38), 30 hops max, 38 byte packet
s
5 564.at-5-0-0.XR2.NYC8.ALTER.NET (152.63.26.62) 156.238 ms 148.492 ms 153.
453 ms
6 182.ATM7-0.GW3.NYC8.ALTER.NET (152.63.18.181) 154.639 ms 137.887 ms 157.6
60 ms
7 apscom-gw.customer.ALTER.NET (157.130.14.70) 295.218 ms 288.388 ms 291.81
8 ms
8 m9-2-fa0-0.msk.zenon.net (195.133.62.5) 309.905 ms !A 314.909 ms !A *

$ traceroute jam-slb-1.msk.zenon.net
traceroute to jam-slb-1.msk.zenon.net (195.2.70.38), 30 hops max, 40 byte packet
s

14 121.at-5-0-0.TR1.NYC8.ALTER.NET (152.63.2.166) 124.056 ms 124.455 ms 123.
903 ms
15 285.at-1-0-0.XR1.NYC8.ALTER.NET (152.63.19.189) 113.206 ms 113.905 ms 112
.144 ms
16 183.ATM7-0.GW3.NYC8.ALTER.NET (152.63.18.173) 123.777 ms 123.323 ms 124.5
86 ms
17 apscom-gw.customer.ALTER.NET (157.130.14.70) 259.091 ms 258.319 ms 257.69
2 ms
18 m9-2-fa0-0.msk.zenon.net (195.133.62.5) 261.439 ms !X 264.772 ms !X *

http://www.networksolutions.com/ (whois)

[Network Solutions(R) -- the dot com people(TM)]
Registrant:
OOO 'Zenon N.S.P (ZENON2-DOM)
1-ja Jamskogo Polja str.,19
Moscow, Russia 125040
RU

Domain Name: ZENON.NET

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
Zenon Hosting Dept. (ZH3376-ORG) domreg@ZENON.NET
Zenon N.S.P.
1-ya Yamskogo polya, 19
Moscow
RU
+7 095 9561380
Fax- +7 095 2515702
Billing Contact:
Zenon Billing Dept. (ZB193-ORG) bills@ZENON.NET
Zenon N.S.P.
1-ya Yamskogo polya, 19
Moscow
RU
+7 095 9561380
Fax- +7 095 2515702

Record last updated on 17-Jul-2001.
Record expires on 23-Jul-2003.
Record created on 22-Jul-1997.
Database last updated on 24-Aug-2001 13:04:00 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS1.ZENON.NET 195.2.64.38
DNS2.ZENON.NET 195.2.83.38

Organization:
Boris Kontchalovski
Boris Kontchalovski
12 Trubnaya Uliza
Moscow, 103045
RU
Phone: 795-915-1594
Email: Kontchalovski@johndoes.org

Registrar Name....: Register.com
Registrar Whois...: whois.register.com
Registrar Homepage: http://www.register.com

Domain Name: STOPCYBERSTALKERS.ORG

Created on..............: Tue, Jul 24, 2001
Expires on..............: Thu, Jul 24, 2003
Record last updated on..: Fri, Aug 10, 2001

Administrative Contact:
Boris Kontchalovski
Boris Kontchalovski
12 Trubnaya Uliza
Moscow, 103045
RU
Phone: 795-915-1594
Email: Kontchalovski@johndoes.org

Technical Contact:
Register.Com
Domain Registrar
575 8th Avenue
New York, NY 10018
US
Phone: 212-798-9200
Fax..: 212-629-9305
Email: domain-registrar@register.com

Zone Contact:
Register.Com
Domain Registrar
575 8th Avenue
New York, NY 10018
US
Phone: 212-798-9200
Fax..: 212-629-9305
Email: domain-registrar@register.com

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS1.ZENON.NET 195.2.64.38
DNS2.ZENON.NET 195.2.83.38

:: begin new material ::

---

He's [presumably] a member of www.johndoes.org -- there are chat boards and
message boards there.

Registrant:
LesFrench.com, Inc. (JOHNDOES-DOM)
9790 SW Pembrook Street
Portland, OR 97224
US

Domain Name: johndoes.org

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:26:08 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Anyone speaks russian here
Message:
what does zenon page say?

Zenon is part of a tracking networkbased at

http://www.demos-internet.ru/new/index.html

which is also russian. Common guys.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:30:47 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: scrap dat
Message:
found the inglich page.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:48:58 (EDT)
From: Internet Informer
Email: None
To: All
Subject: CAC -- Beware
Message:
Everyone should beware that the CAC website very likely has a tracking mechanism that reads your computer, type, etc., where you have come from to get to the site and other information. You might be well to know that if you visit that site, you are likely leaving quite a bit of information about yourself.

Just a word to the wise.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:47:14 (EDT)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: Internet Informer
Subject: 16 jay street wethersfield ct usa [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:57:30 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@hafey.com
To: bill burke
Subject: 16 Field Street Torrington CT USA
Message:
:: bring it on ::
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:05:58 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Internet Informer
Subject: SO WHAT!
Message:
Stop spreading useless paranoia, I concur with JHB that all of the info that they might glean about me from my browser or other sources or whatever is virtualy useless, and of little interest to a very small audience.

However, the impetuous of this expose action that CAC has initiated may well spill over to a much larger arena of national media interest, they love this kind of drama and could really have fun with it. That kind of attention would end up focused back on you know who. Who knows, it might even give rise to future legislative rulings concerning privacy protection issues and the internet. Lots of good things are sure to evolve from all of this CAC attention.

You are right about one thing CAC BEWARE, CAC may end up neck deep in CACA in of itself, you can't throw CACA without getting some of it on yourself.

At the very least, this issue has already attracted negative attention to Maharaji himself, it cannot help his image to know that there are people at his disposal who perpetrate against other internet users for voicing an opinion on a public forum.

The cult will mock concern and try their best to distance themselves from the actions of CAC, but CAC holds a smoking gun when Sir Dave complied with CAC demands to remove his information from the net concerning maharaji. The transparent affiliation is amusing at best.

Lets not give teeth to a Tiger that has gum disease already, CAC'S teeth are already falling out and rotting away.

Concentrate on telling the truth about the cult and your experience of it and the cult leader maharaji, support the freedom and the courage that it takes to do so.

We do not need to hear your wimpy woes and petty concerns about internet paranoia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:04:18 (EDT)
From: The Ghost of F7
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Waddya mean SO WHAT?
Message:
It might be useless paranoia to you ,buster, but it's a matter of life and death to some of us. I thought his 'wimpy woes' were rather touching. He might not have been right but his concern was sincere enough. It shone through like a lighthouse in a storm. Much better than your revolting post all about gum disease and guns. Anyway, Gerry's the boss round here and he says what's OK not you, grumpy. If anybody want's to get paranoid about the internet feel free and go right ahead. Still plenty of time for cult-bashing. EEK!!, I'M SCARED!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:29:51 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: The Ghost of F7
Subject: Let me explain
Message:
and examine SO WHAT a little further with you ghost, So what would happen to me say if CAC publishes one of their infamous expose's on me.

Say they come up with some dirt, (fabricated or true) whatever, and post in on CAC, So there I am hanging out on this seedy little hole in cyberspace. All embarrassed and everything, OOOOOH, Now what, do you think I will live? I say after a short time the brief embarrassment dissipates, whatever fears held founded or otherwise turns into freedom. NOW whatever percieved power or fear wielded by is gone, poof.....

The illusion of power through fear depends on what I allow CAC or anyone to control by my fear of consequence. Once the percieved consequence has been dealt their power goes out the window.
So What.... another dramatic embarrassing episode, big deal, who cares

I am at peace with myself, I am not perfect, I have made mistakes, I have already survived my most embarrassing moments, I also have made ammends to those that count to me and life goes on.

I am not afraid of ghosts either, go back into the light junior, you have taken a wrong turn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 04:52:33 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: You explained it very well, Brian
Message:
Rawat's little trip is based on fear and his current devotees seem to be getting more paranoid all the time.

This is a gem from his holeyness which a premie posted over on Lifes (sic) Great today as an example of Rawat's wisdom:

You have been borrowing from time and time is a mean lender. You should never borrow from time. That's one guy you need to stay away from. But naively, you borrow from time, saying, 'I'll do that tomorrow,' or, 'I'll get my life together when I'm older.' But time charges too much interest. And when time comes to collect, it has no mercy.”

Of course this has to be the most meaningless bunch of crap I have ever heard any adult speak but it's gist is ''be afraid, you are wasting time, wasting your life!''

Ooh, baby, now I'm just shitting myself. For christ's sake this is the Hindu bogeyman version of pure fundamentalist bible-thumping and fear-mongering.

Some premies are in denial, some are insecure, some are afraid, some are bordering on neurosis and some are definitely full-blown paranoids like CAC.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 01:32:47 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: The Ghost of F7
Subject: Re: Waddya mean SO WHAT?
Message:
You call the possibility of airing out ones dirty laundry over the internet life and death, that is small potatoes in my world of fear and intimidation.

I survived 2 tours of duty in Viet Nam at the height of The horrific Tet offensives of 67 & 68, That was fear, that was intimidation, that was life and death my friend.

What you are peddling is pale in comparison

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 02:49:28 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Good to hear from you Brian
Message:
Lost your email when my hard drive melted. Send me one when you get a minute.

Richard who was Postie but now I'm found

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:52:39 (EDT)
From: sushi
Email: None
To: The Ghost of F7
Subject: trembling
Message:
are the water gun ready?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:06:22 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: The Ghost of F7
Subject: :: not :: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:55:44 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Internet Informer
Subject: Re: CAC -- Beware
Message:
So what? I leave that info when I visit Maharaji.org, the EV sites, ELK, Glasser's site, It-aint-so, Life's Great, etc., and I have already told everyone I live in Latvia.

So what are they going to do with this info?

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:57:40 (EDT)
From: Internet Informer
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: CAC -- Beware
Message:
What could they do with it? Considering what they have done with the 'info' they already have, just about anything.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:01:21 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Internet Informer
Subject: :: bring it on ::
Message:
just about anything.


---

Fly? Room-temperature ('cold') fusion? Bring back penny candy? What?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 19:08:05 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Internet Informer
Subject: Re: CAC -- Beware
Message:
Well they haven't done just about anything. All they've done is post some malicious garbage on an obscure website in Russia that is very unlikely to ever appear in a search engines' listing.

The only info that could possibly have helped them establish some of the personal info is the exes' ip addresses. The rest they got from the forum, archives, and other dubious sources. For instance, they didn't get Sir Dave's childrens' address from his browser type or ip address. So what are you advising, stop accessing internet websites? Should everyone use a proxy service? Or only browse the internet from internet cafes?

Your serious warning needs a little fleshing out.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:59:57 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Internet Informer
Subject: They are extremely slippery
Message:
And smart, too. I wouldn't put anything past them. Thanks for the heads up, Internet Informer.

.
.
.
.
.
..

..
..
.
.
.
.

.
.
(snicker)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 20:43:41 (EDT)
From: Internet Genius Type
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thought they were asleep
Message:
VERY SMART and VERY TRICKY. They were also asleep or they were about half an hour ago and they have anti-TRACKING DETECTION SOFTWARE software that makes you think you're safe but they've really got your browser hostage and they're going to shoot it if you don't hand over the cash and sing arti (l....o.....n.....g version real s....l....o.....w , y.....a.....w.....n) RIGHT NOW!! and be good and no swearing and say your prayers.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:01:16 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Internet Genius Type
Subject: Re: Thought they were asleep
Message:
Am not sure if you've read about the latest software. Really really something. It's called Graber. Once installed on a server, it will work itself therough the host computer, then it will go down. crawls on the floor, clims up the chair and grabs hold of your balls. The're working on a women version. No })
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:06:20 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Internet Genius Type
Subject: Stop scaring me
Message:
I'm sensitive and I'm reading Mario Puzo's Omerta. So I'm a little spooked. Looking extra hard at the cars that drive by and checking under the deck before starting the car. That kind of stuff...

Besides, that was then and this is now and I've evolved.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:27:11 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Omerta (ot)
Message:
Omerta is the quality that defines a human being.That makes him stand up & spit in the eye of an oppressor.That makes him defend his own, that makes him a man.

The silence thing is by-product of having Omerta.

If you have Omerta then you don't betray your family or friends when you're up against the wall.

So lowlifes have corrupted the attitude.

God give me Omerta.

Pat Dorrity

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:59:27 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: ::insert S&W endorsement here:: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:38:14 (EDT)
From: The Ghost of F7
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Bad things
Message:
and they got these things called nookies that can come down the internet right into your house when your not looking and go WHOOOOOAAAHHHH!!! and tell what you're thinking and everything and tell your parents if you been smoking and everything. promise
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:27:40 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: Jai_Choix@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: so what happened??
Message:
in the aftermath of my debacle with webtv, i have been out of touch for a week. what transpired with sir dave and the forum while i was out? what did CACA do to him? did anyone download and save forum 6 for archiving before he pulled the plug??

i am so sad to see him cowed off like this. the republicans did this to ross perot in the summer of 92 and he folded too.
the hateful aspect of it is, you have no power to make the ransomers pay up after you comply with their demands. you can give them everything they extort you for, and they still can kill the hostage-- or blow up the target-- or keep the plane, etc.
sir dave could still get harassed and stalked and terrorized, despite his having 'complied' with the terms of the CACA=phonies. it's all very troubling and I mean to follow this as much as i can to watch where it leads.

i would welcome catchup emails bringing me up to date on what i miss. use the new email address above.

i spent the week negotiating with microsoft for the return of my service. and thereby hangs a tail/tale i would be interested to relate in email. you will all find it most bemusing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:32:24 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: so what happened??
Message:
Janet,

I wrote a summary for Jean-Michel below. I have all the F6 archives.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:46:26 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: so what happened??
Message:
ah--excellent.

did anyone download sir dave's other sites for mirroring or excerpting?
there was too much hard hitting stuff on those to lose to these terrorists. it should be resurected elsewhere, paraphrasd if need be, to take the heat off sir dave.

if you would, can you find the post to jm and ccp it to me in an email? it might go inactive before i can get to read it.
real clumsy on this new access. not my accustomed method and all.
gotta learn all over agiain. sigh.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 12:45:58 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: The Truth About Maharaji
Message:
It's contents, have been saved by several people.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 23:06:28 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: so what happened??
Message:
Janet,

Sir dave's website is clogging the internet, it has already been mirrored on multiple sites and I belive it will be relunched again very soon, but as JHB says, Alha is great and know better, that what my folks use to say. Be tuned to website near you.

Question: has your disconnection from WebTV anything to do with Maharaji and his gang?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 03:50:09 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: so what happened??
Message:
as far as i can determine, webtv completely misunderstood the essence of three letters i wrote them with my reaction to their upcoming 'transition' in which they intend to move all of webtv into more absorprion into the microsoft network. they never asked us if we wanted this. they gave us no way to opt out or stick with what we had that worked for us. i foresaw chaos on a mass scale and they wouldnt listen.

write me so i can tell you the rest. you would be an wxcellent one to confer with on this.

I'm now taking my correspondence at

jai_choix@yahoo.com

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 05:29:48 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: so what happened??
Message:
will do. At last you decided to use a 'natural' e-mail. Hey I was going to give you one of my computers. Do you want me to e-mail it to you :):):) Lovely to see you
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:10:20 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: more questions and stuff
Message:
You all must be tired of my ignorance by now. I apologize. I read something below about some kind of water, 'cha..........?' I can't remember now what it was, nor can I find the post. Can someone explain this, please? Ghee, I know is butter but only because I cook a lot. I am a little afraid to ask why it was mentioned in the post! But, I will ask anyway. Why is ghee mentioned?
Though I sent another leter to EV about their posing as a church, I have still not received any answer. The letters were quite polite and non-accusatory, I believe. Simply requests for information, which is
---
or should be
---
public knowledge.
The premies I know around here still have photos of rawrat up all over
---
and I do mean ALL over
---
their homes. I usually have to stop myself from saying something obvious like, 'Why don't you go to the library and check out some good art for awhile, because that makes you look like a mindless twit.' I haven't yet, but it is tempting!
I am considereing going to rawrat's website where you can send him e-mail and putting the question directly to him: ''Why is elan vital registered as a church if this is not a religion?'' Won't get an answer, but the very fact that they won't answer it, implicates them in some kind of shady activity, in my mind. They are listed that way in public documents. Therefore, they should be accountable to everyone as to why they chose that designation. It was their choice, not one forced upon them. That being the case, I am completely at a loss to understand their continued failure to anser the question.
Regarding rawrat: Why does he not openly discuss these issues raised here? These people, for the most part, gave him many, many years of their lives. He owes them frank discussion of the issues. That marks him as nothing better than a coward, any coward who, when things get hot, disappears. I hold him, and all who display such behavior, in contempt. I do not fear him, though undoubtedly he could try and make many things in my life messy. That, however, is a reflection on him, not me. It is the same with all harrassment of ex-premies and with the CAC site. It shows his true self. What a pity. I'll take him on in an open and honest discussion of the issues. Pity he has no courage or guts to frankly and openly talk about what he has done and what he is still doing to his followers.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 20:36:45 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: :: bad news on the doorstep ::
Message:
You all must be tired of my ignorance by now. I apologize. I read something below about some kind of water, 'cha..........?' I can't remember now what it was, nor can I find the post. Can someone explain this, please? Ghee, I know is butter but only because I cook a lot. I am a little afraid to ask why it was mentioned in the post! But, I will ask anyway. Why is ghee mentioned?
Though I sent another leter to EV about their posing as a church, I have still not received any answer. The letters were quite polite and non-accusatory, I believe. Simply requests for information, which is
---
or should be
---
public knowledge.
The premies I know around here still have photos of rawrat up all over
---
and I do mean ALL over
---
their homes. I usually have to stop myself from saying something obvious like, 'Why don't you go to the library and check out some good art for awhile, because that makes you look like a mindless twit.' I haven't yet, but it is tempting!
I am considereing going to rawrat's website where you can send him e-mail and putting the question directly to him: ''Why is elan vital registered as a church if this is not a religion?'' Won't get an answer, but the very fact that they won't answer it, implicates them in some kind of shady activity, in my mind. They are listed that way in public documents. Therefore, they should be accountable to everyone as to why they chose that designation. It was their choice, not one forced upon them. That being the case, I am completely at a loss to understand their continued failure to anser the question.
Regarding rawrat: Why does he not openly discuss these issues raised here? These people, for the most part, gave him many, many years of their lives. He owes them frank discussion of the issues. That marks him as nothing better than a coward, any coward who, when things get hot, disappears. I hold him, and all who display such behavior, in contempt. I do not fear him, though undoubtedly he could try and make many things in my life messy. That, however, is a reflection on him, not me. It is the same with all harrassment of ex-premies and with the CAC site. It shows his true self. What a pity. I'll take him on in an open and honest discussion of the issues. Pity he has no courage or guts to frankly and openly talk about what he has done and what he is still doing to his followers.


---

charnomrit was holy water, and you drank it.
ghee is clarified butte. you burn it.

Satsang is a nightly meeting (seven nights a week;
three hundred sixty-five days of the year) that
begins at 7:30. It ends at around 9:30 or 10:00.

At Satsang, people get up (there's a small platform to
stand a foot or two above floor level, so you can
make eye contact with everyone in the room -- usually
about 30 people) and talk about their experiences with
Knowledge, and with Maharaji or with his followers.
They praise him. They speak of his lovely features.
They speak of this wonderful gift of life. Ah.

Then someone gets up and sings a song. But first,
they sit real quiet-like, all smiles, and just look
out at the room -- at you. They hunch their shoulders,
cute, like a bunny. They breathe a deep sigh of
contentment.

Then they do their song, which is usually them accompanying
themselves on the guitar.

Most could carry a tune.

When everyone had had enough of this, the meeting would
break up into the ritual goodbye portion of the evening,
where the lights go out. Someone brings a sterling silver
tray, with a little smurf of ghee in the middle of it,
and someone straps on a guitar (so they can dance and
play and sing all at the same time).

then the first chord begins .. it is strummed slowly and
deliberatly. About half the voices sing 'Meditation begins..'
and they start to sing in synchrony, if they can -- and
sometimes in the same key.

It is a very long song, and it is patterned on Don McLean's
'American Pie' -- about the same length, with a big
rollicking middle part, and a gentle part at the beginning
and end.

The whole time this is going on, someone is undulating (usually
a chick, because they undulate better) in front of a gigantic
photograph of the urug -- hung on the wall or on an easel.
The photo is behind a chair, where an imaginary urug sits
and takes all this in -- the whole 15-minute scene.

The undulator undulates while swinging the tray that has
the burning ghee (see? it's a candle in the dark room)
which is somehow made more interesting by having a whole
song sung to it, by thirty dancing singing premies.

So that would be thirty dancing.

The ghee-made-interesting comes into play in a moment; we'll
get to that then. Right now we're all dancing and swaying
and a few of us are closing our eyes and dancing anyway,
and everyone is singing. You can't not sing -- that's rule.

Just ask Chuck.

The song winds down to the soft part '.. the three men
I admire most .. the father, son, and the holy ghost..
they caught the last train for the coast. The day
the music.. died.'

So we're singing goodbye to miss american pie, and getting
to the end of it. When it stops and we all get off the
train, first we fall to our knees, and do the Ula-tek
thing where you slide your hands on the floor in front
of you, until you are entirely bent over your knees.
It looks a bit like a yoga posture, and once you're flat
out, with your knees under your chin, you can just stay
there and rest as long as you need to -- it was a long
song, after all, and a long train ride, too.

Then the whistle blows. Everyone in half-synchronized
shouting yells 'Bow Lay Shree Sot Goo Rue Def Maw Haw Raw Key Jay!'
and they all think they know what it means. Then (and only
then) do they make eye contact with one another -- the
entire ceremony is conducted in reference to an empty chair.

This trip was called 'Arti' and it is done every night -- every
single night. No exceptions. I think I recall times where for
some reason we did Arti in the ashram, instead of at the Satsang
hall, but I can't think of why.

We also did Arti every morning, in the ashram, if I recall correctly.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 20:45:39 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: REPOST - :: bad news on the doorstep ::
Message:
You all must be tired of my ignorance by now. I apologize. I read something below about some kind of water, 'cha..........?' I can't remember now what it was, nor can I find the post. Can someone explain this, please? Ghee, I know is butter but only because I cook a lot. I am a little afraid to ask why it was mentioned in the post! But, I will ask anyway. Why is ghee mentioned?
Though I sent another leter to EV about their posing as a church, I have still not received any answer. The letters were quite polite and non-accusatory, I believe. Simply requests for information, which is
---
or should be
---
public knowledge.
The premies I know around here still have photos of rawrat up all over
---
and I do mean ALL over
---
their homes. I usually have to stop myself from saying something obvious like, 'Why don't you go to the library and check out some good art for awhile, because that makes you look like a mindless twit.' I haven't yet, but it is tempting!
I am considereing going to rawrat's website where you can send him e-mail and putting the question directly to him: ''Why is elan vital registered as a church if this is not a religion?'' Won't get an answer, but the very fact that they won't answer it, implicates them in some kind of shady activity, in my mind. They are listed that way in public documents. Therefore, they should be accountable to everyone as to why they chose that designation. It was their choice, not one forced upon them. That being the case, I am completely at a loss to understand their continued failure to anser the question.
Regarding rawrat: Why does he not openly discuss these issues raised here? These people, for the most part, gave him many, many years of their lives. He owes them frank discussion of the issues. That marks him as nothing better than a coward, any coward who, when things get hot, disappears. I hold him, and all who display such behavior, in contempt. I do not fear him, though undoubtedly he could try and make many things in my life messy. That, however, is a reflection on him, not me. It is the same with all harrassment of ex-premies and with the CAC site. It shows his true self. What a pity. I'll take him on in an open and honest discussion of the issues. Pity he has no courage or guts to frankly and openly talk about what he has done and what he is still doing to his followers.


---

charnomrit was holy water, and you drank it.
ghee is clarified butte. you burn it.

Satsang is a nightly meeting (seven nights a week;
three hundred sixty-five days of the year) that
begins at 7:30. It ends at around 9:30 or 10:00.

At Satsang, people get up (there's a small platform to
stand a foot or two above floor level, so you can
make eye contact with everyone in the room -- usually
about 30 people) and talk about their experiences with
Knowledge, and with Maharaji or with his followers.
They praise him. They speak of his lovely features.
They speak of this wonderful gift of life. Ah.

Then someone gets up and sings a song. But first,
they sit real quiet-like, all smiles, and just look
out at the room -- at you. They hunch their shoulders,
cute, like a bunny. They breathe a deep sigh of
contentment.

Then they do their song, which is usually them accompanying
themselves on the guitar.

Most could carry a tune.

When everyone had had enough of this, the meeting would
break up into the ritual goodbye portion of the evening,
where the lights go out. Someone brings a sterling silver
tray, with a little smurf of ghee in the middle of it,
and someone straps on a guitar (so they can dance and
play and sing all at the same time).

then the first chord begins .. it is strummed slowly and
deliberatly. About half the voices sing 'Meditation begins..'
and they start to sing in synchrony, if they can -- and
sometimes in the same key.

It is a very long song, and it is patterned on Don McLean's
'American Pie' -- about the same length, with a big
rollicking middle part, and a gentle part at the beginning
and end.

The whole time this is going on, someone is undulating (usually
a chick, because they undulate better) in front of a gigantic
photograph of the urug -- hung on the wall or on an easel.
The photo is behind a chair, where an imaginary urug sits
and takes all this in -- the whole 15-minute scene.

The undulator undulates while swinging the tray that has
the burning ghee (see? it's a candle in the dark room)
which is somehow made more interesting by having a whole
song sung to it, by thirty dancing singing premies.

So that would be thirty dancing.

The ghee-made-interesting comes into play in a moment; we'll
get to that then. Right now we're all dancing and swaying
and a few of us are closing our eyes and dancing anyway,
and everyone is singing. You can't not sing -- that's rule.

Just ask Chuck.

The song winds down to the soft part '.. the three men
I admire most .. the father, son, and the holy ghost..
they caught the last train for the coast. The day
the music.. died.'

So we're singing goodbye to miss american pie, and getting
to the end of it. When it stops and we all get off the
train, first we fall to our knees, and do the Ula-tek
thing where you slide your hands on the floor in front
of you, until you are entirely bent over your knees.
It looks a bit like a yoga posture, and once you're flat
out, with your knees under your chin, you can just stay
there and rest as long as you need to -- it was a long
song, after all, and a long train ride, too.

Then the whistle blows. Everyone in half-synchronized
shouting yells 'Bow Lay Shree Sot Goo Rue Def Maw Haw Raw Key Jay!'
and they all think they know what it means. Then (and only
then) do they make eye contact with one another -- the
entire ceremony is conducted in reference to an empty chair.

This trip was called 'Arti' and it is done every night -- every
single night. No exceptions. I think I recall times where for
some reason we did Arti in the ashram, instead of at the Satsang
hall, but I can't think of why.

We also did Arti every morning, in the ashram, if I recall correctly.


---

But I promised you something about the ghee-made-interesting:

The burning flame, now chock full of premie-worship plasma, is
presented to each premie who comes forward to get it presented
to them, and they run their hands through the air above it, like
they were trying to find a good spot where the devotion plasma
was the purest. They'd then try to transfer the devotion plasma
(which is invisible, odorless and is the same temperature as the
air around it) to their forehead, because they weren't seeing very
much light in meditation and this should correct that -- like gassing
up with petrol, or priming a pump. The motion to me was about the
same as trying to drink water from a stream, by cupping some in
your hand -- like you had to be quick about it, to get it to your
mouth without losing too much.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 11:32:40 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Whadda ya mean....
Message:
''most could carry a tune, Chris!!';)

Anyway you forgot prasad, the scraps off of Maharaji's plate which mahatmas or initiators or instructors often brought with them to share.

And the ghee candles were shaped like Hershey kisses...I made many. We stored them in the freezer to keep them Hershey fresh.

You silly ex!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 16:47:50 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Whadda ya mean....
Message:
''most could carry a tune, Chris!!';)

Anyway you forgot prasad, the scraps off of Maharaji's plate which mahatmas or initiators or instructors often brought with them to share.

And the ghee candles were shaped like Hershey kisses...I made many. We stored them in the freezer to keep them Hershey fresh.

You silly ex!


---

I didn't name names now, did I? ;)

prasad

I never got any prasad. There were a lot of more-agressive
premies around who would always get stuff like that, first.

hershey

I say they were smurfs.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 10:56:55 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Also repost RE charanamrit water
Message:
Oh yes, the charanamrit water routine:

The little spoon, holding your hands just so, the slurping, then wiping the residue into your hair or forehead or somewhere.

Also, it was interesting and often amusing to watch the various ways people waved their hands over the arti flames, somehow pulling the presumed blessings toward their foreheads.

Some folks were rather ostentatious, I recall. There were a number of variations:

The quick multiple waves, 'gatherings' you might say, with a final flourish.

The one-stroke-johnny with a 'namaste' gesture, fingertips at the third eye.

The slow, stately wave, like hoarding the glow, while the holder of the tray grew impatient to move on to the next person.

Years and years of this stuff! Amazing, really.

Fiat lux, everybody,
Carl

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 13:56:08 (EDT)
From: test
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: nt
Message:
zz
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2001 at 00:40:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: God, is that funny!!
Message:
The burning flame, now chock full of premie-worship plasma, is
presented to each premie who comes forward to get it presented
to them, and they run their hands through the air above it, like
they were trying to find a good spot where the devotion plasma
was the purest.
They'd then try to transfer the devotion plasma
(which is invisible, odorless and is the same temperature as the
air around it) to their forehead, because they weren't seeing very
much light in meditation and this should correct that -- like gassing
up with petrol, or priming a pump. The motion to me was about the
same as trying to drink water from a stream, by cupping some in
your hand -- like you had to be quick about it, to get it to your
mouth without losing too much.

Too good, that part especially.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:16:48 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: ghee smurf? devotion plasma?
Message:
You're on a roll, Chris. What a hoot!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:51:42 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:30:55 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Charanamrit; holy water from feet of M
Message:
This was supposed to be cleansing and healing I think. You would only need a drop in a whole bottle it was supposed to be that powerful. I believed this!!!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:46:29 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Charanamrit; holy water from feet of M
Message:
I wish I could think you were joking. I'm pretty sure you aren't. I am so sorry this delusion was laid on you. And all others. Rawrat has a lot to answer for.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:52:24 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: Charanamrit; holy water from feet of M
Message:
Yes indeedeeee....once bought a very expensive Baccarat(sp) crystal jam jar to give to M at a program to keep his holy father's water in. It's lead content is something like the highest of any crystal and consequently, the security x-ray machine at the airport picked it up as a firearm! They made me open this beautifully wrapped box and show it to them! What did Maharaji say at that program? Yes, he would (abligingly) accept our gifts but really they weren't of use to him. Money was. Oh well, so much for gifts from the heart.

You bring up a really good question, and if anyone out there knows the answer to a similar one, I'd certainly appreciate it. There was a program at LA. We were all waiting for M to arrive and suddenly the floor started bouncing like some giant was walking in. Everyone thought at first it was an earthquake then, of course, realized Maharaji had arrived without his body. No, I'm not jesting. Raja ji even said something to the effect that they were all leaving the residence when M supposedly stopped. When Raja Ji asked what was wrong (or something similar), M replied along the lines of that he felt like he was already there. Then a big bowl of some punch arrived and was supposed to be prashar (sp). It was delicious and gave us a decidedly intoxicated type feeling. Could it have been that bong stuff I've heard mentioned?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:12:08 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: CAC Allegations
Message:
The defamatory and probably illegal CAC Website, contains the following allegations, that I would hope we could discuss. Can anyone shed light on this, or are they total fabrications? Can we bring this out in the open as much as we can?

They say:

For several years, a few persons, working together, have tried to damage the personal and professional lives of many persons interested in Maharaji's teachings.

Does anybody know what they are talking about? The EPO website and the Forum, have focused on Maharaji, and premies only to the extent that they have been helping Maharaji deceive people and be the fraud he is.

The only incident I recall is when Charles Glasser Jr's website, which is a direct attack on the reputations and even mental conditions of all the ex-premies who post on the Forum, have written journies, etc. came onto the scene. Glasser tried to have it both ways. First, he gave all kinds of biographical information to puff himself up as some kind of really reputable and respectable person, and then totally freaked when he couldn't hide behind anonymity anymore and somebody revealed who he was, and every easily, where he worked. Was his employer contacted by ex-premies? What happened?

And if Glasser is one, who are the other three (they say there are four of them, but you never know)? Does anybody have any idea? Is this, again, just a total fabrication? Who sent 'viruses' to people? This is lala land. Here's what they say:

They have posted thousands of defamatory messages about us

Well, this is a lie, except I think that many premies, think that if you talk about what a charlatan Maharaji is, that somehow it defames them personally. Well, it does kind of make them look foolish, but what 'defamatory' messages are they talking about, again, except for people like David Smith, Joan Apter, etc., and then only to the extent they did and said bizarre things while they were IN THE CULT, and not anything else about their lives.

[They} have called our employers

What is this about? Is this the Charles Glasser thing? Did somebody call his employer? What do they imply people SAID to the employer, if indeed they did call, and who are the employers? Anybody?

, taken anonymous ads against us in the press,]

Well, this I know is a blantant lie. The only 'ad' was taken out by a group called 'The Maharaji Responsbility Campaign' who took out an ad in a Boston newspaper, I believe right around the time Maharaji was speaking there about a year ago. It certainly wasn't defamatory to Maharaji, and never even mentioned premies, from what I saw. It referred people to a website where and 'open letter' to Maharaji was posted, asking that he clearly dissuade his followers from continuing to believe he was divine. It was very respectful, and, again, did not mention ANY of Maharaji's followers. Is there another ad I don't know about?

sent us email viruses,

Oh, please.

fabricated documents bearing our names,

Bearing whose names, and what documents? What the fuck are they talking about?

doctored our photographs,

The only photographs I have seen 'doctored' are some of Maharaji himself, and even premies have to admit they were very, very funny and he kind of had it coming, seeing that Maharaji is so excessively narcissistic that he has sold thousands of photographs of himself in all sizes over the years, many of which sat on altars and were bowed down to by these very people who are complaining. Perhaps premies really are COMPLETELY humorless, but I don't think they ALL are. But I have never seen a 'doctored' photo of any premie.

and threatened us of violence and even death.Once again, please. Who threatened you with 'death?' I know Maharaji threatens it frequently. He talks about death all the time and how quickly it's coming. Is Maharaji a 'cyberstalker' too?

All this because we chose to follow these teachings..

You know, sometimes ex-premies get on the cases of premies because they are JERKS, not because they are premies. Ex-premies can be jerks too and they also need to be called on it. We're all just people in the end with all our imperfections and frailties.

But perhaps premies might make a distinction. Just because somebody says what you believe is ridiculous, contradictory, illusory and incoherent, it doesn't mean YOU are ridiculous or incoherent. Since by definition ex-premies once believed the same stuff, most of us can understand that you don't have to be an idiot to believe it. I believed it, for quite some time, and I don't think I'm an idiot because I did. Naive maybe; programmed certainly, but not stupid.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:12:23 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: CAC Allegations
Message:
Well .. here's the thing: They are posing as some agency that
is general in scope: 'cyberstalkers' rather than owning up to
the fact that they are one faction of an obscure cult arguing
with another faction of the same obscure cult
-- which would
be a plain admission (to the public who would care a shit about
any and all of this nonsense) that this is an in-house spat and
has nothing to do with the rest of the planet's occupants.

I think *anyone* outside the cult reading this would give it about
a paragraph before muttering 'what the fuck? Charlie, get in here'
(in the case of an employer) and then demanding an explanation from
someone *involved* in the disagreement.

Somebody's watched too much television.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:23:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: As they still say in Canada, right on!
Message:
You're right about all this. Mind you, it's all so obvious so why am I making such a big deal about it? Please forget the subject line. Make it something more apt like 'Of course...'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:57:55 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: To be accurate, Joe
Message:
I agree with everything you say except there is a bit of wiggle room in the argument that notable premies have been unfairly mentioned on the forums. Names of current and past premies, and in many cases their websites or other personal info has been posted. Sometimes this was done benignly like 'I wonder what ever happened to so and so'. If someone has a website then no biggie because that's already public info. But often, because of the context in which they were mentioned, those people were trashed by present or past association with M and witch-hunted a bit. Am I wrong about this? Down below, Rich Mandrake very eloquently speaks to this point and I agree.

I came to the forums anonymously as a fencesitter and was grateful not to be outed, though I could have been. Recently I defended Martin Gray, whom I barely knew, against unwarranted accusations made simply because he was a former devotee and was requesting donations for his work. Somehow he was equated with M which I thought was wrong and said so.

I know for a fact that there are former followers, including PAMs, who will not post here because of the underlying (if only occassional) witch hunt atmosphere that happens. I have been in email contact with one person who wont post but has become an ex by reading the EPO archives.

OK, fine, maybe the forum is a more rough and tumble venue and not for everyone but I have to point out why others may take exception to postings about individuals, regardless of what CACa or other sites may do.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:05:44 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Half a Point, Richard
Message:
I agree this is probably something that we should be more sensitive too. Actually, I was the one who mentioned Martin's website and although I had nothing but praise for it, I know there were a couple of negative comments. But it was public information and this IS a discussion and people can express their opinions. I didn't think he was lambasted, somebody just questioned why he was asking for donations. And to be fair, Martin is an ex, from what I understand, so he can't be what CAC is referring to. But new agey stuff might not get much praise here, because of the heightened sensitivity ex-premies often have to it.

I do want to apologize to Teddy Tannenbaum. I found his website, and I was a little sarcastic about it, but I meant no harm. But I also understand Teddy is an ex, too, so also not applicable to what CAC is saying. So, Teddy if you hear about this, I never knew you personally, but no disrespect intended, and we'd all love to hear what you think about all this.

Alvaro? Fair game, don't you think?

Who else? Joan Apter. Was there something wrong there?

But I think my main point is valid.

I would like to see most exes post here, and, frankly, if they DID post here there wouldn't be any speculation about what they are doing, now would there? All it takes is one post. Just to say, here I am I'm an ex, I don't want to post here, but I exist and I appreciate what you've done. I mean, especially if somebody found the archives helpful, where do they think they came from? Perhaps they ought to be a little more forgiving and now to unwilling to dirty their hands.

I mean it, Richard. It bugs me that people think it's so beneath them to come and talk to the mere mortals who have been dedicated to keeping this thing going.

I agree that we need to be reminded to be respectful to people, but I think there are sometimes a lot of other motives for not appearing publicly. Things that are a lot deeper like: What if he really IS God? What will my premie friends think? Why was I such a fool? ETc.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 20:06:40 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Half a point
Message:
Joe, I didn't intend to draw focus away from your main points in the original post. Yes, of course CACa is totally full of it, illegal, predatory and the work of an extremely small minded individual. You put a lot of effort into countering their lies and that effort is appreciated.

I too would most definitely like to see anyone who was a follower come forward and tell their story. Every story puts more flesh on the bones of this skeleton in M and EV's closet.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:59:32 (EDT)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com
To: Richard
Subject: No shame in remembering crazy premie types
Message:
I have absoulutely no compunction of writing on these public forums about my unpleasant experiences at the hands of various named authorative premies, like David Smith, who to my recollection, seemed to actually take some pleasure in humiliating and scaring people whilst exersizing his hard line approach to his 'service' as an instructor- persuading the likes of myself how worthless and useless we were, and how much we should surrender etc. and how deadly serious this whole ashram trip was. I mean these guys put the absolute fear of God into us and it does no harm to remind oneself and others that these guys exerted considerable intimidation on their captive audiences - largely because of the respect they commanded as Initiators, Instructors. (remember they were once called 'Mahatma's or 'Great Souls' - in retrospect that was an utterly risible title wasn't it? But one that gained them huge respect and credibility.)

In some ways of, course, most of us probably behaved badly at some times as zealous 'premies', but then we too should be able to admit that now, and come to terms with the fact that we were passing on a doctrine that fundamentally made some very 'heavy' demands, which of course were approved and endorsed by Maharaji himself. Smith just happened to be an outstandingly perfect example of the kind of nastiness that Maharaji, inadvertantly or otherwise, had bred in his more ardent followers. That fact that Smith appears stillunrepentant, and may be still in some position of trust within the organisation (anyone know about this?) singles him out to be deserving of criticism and even some confrontation, especially that quite a few people apparently still suffer nightmares about the guy twenty years down the line. I am not saying that people should be singled out and punished for their past, indeed I forgive all my abusers, but it is healthy to express ones anger and disdain for everything their former behaviour represents.

regarding www.stopcyberstalkers

I was wondering how I would react if CAC posted a page on me. Well, frankly I have such a clean, spotless past (and present) and I have absolutely zilch to be ashamed of, so they would really have to make something up or, at a stretch maybe, spin something nasty out of something truly innocuous that I have said or done. My consience is clear - apart from an incident in my childhood when I shot a bird with my airgun for which I am utterly repentant. People like Pat and Dave whose anger has been justified and whose sexual activities seem hardly to be uncommon or illegal should not be ashamed of expressing their feelings as they have done .

Anyway the upshot is that CAC have actually provided some entertainment and really done Maharaji a disservice at the nd of the day. Nobody apart from Sir Dave seems to be too upset about the whole thing and most of his blacklisted seem deliriously pleased to be mentioned. I think I would find it funny as opposed to being outraged, to be included.

After all, nobody takes this site seriously that I have spoken to. How could anybody? It's blatantly hypocritical to anyone who reads it! It's a joke. Let the poor CAC author carry on pretending that he has some genuinely altrusitic motives for his Jihad. In his dreams! No-one but a complete fool could possibly miss the glaring evidence that he has the agenda of a madman, a religious zealot... a terrorist in short. It's SO transparent. Nothing to be afraid of or threatened by. He just HATES freedom of speech as far as I can see.

I read a few lines of their intro to my work partner who joked 'Are you sure it doesn't say 'SupportCyberstalkers.com'. Anyway we both went on to have apoplectic hysterics at their profile of Gerry.

Nobody I know or work for would give a toss about anything they could possibly make up about me fortunately, and if anyone chose to judge me by the dubious profile that would no doubt accord me by this zealous fundamentalist, then I could do well without their admiration or friendship.

Frankly I am a bit sorry that Sir Dave took it so badly. No one could criticise him for his reaction since his main concern was his daughters safety. But I happen to think his fears were unfounded. Frankly I think that any danger to his family would have been extremely unlikely. I suppose that CACK can congratulate himself for having successfully Sir Dave and made himshut down his forum for what it's worth. (ie. a result worth nothing because the forums just pop up elsewhere).

I think this Cack fellow has already established a reputation with his readership (premies included - judging by people I have spoken with ) as being totally incredible, unethical and basically a rather sad loose cannon. So let him spin and threaten. The only threats that I would take remotely seriously are physical ones. But then, if this guy stooped to physical threats and was caught, he would be in really deep trouble. I am sure it's only one or two people who are particularly sad, bored, unemployed premies who could be bothered to waste so much time playing nasty practical jokes.

The only rather sad thing I have noticed about this episode is that some premies, although they say they think CAC is beyond the pale, then aside that they are really rather perversely pleased that ex-premies have had it coming etc. and somehow deserve this treatment. My feeling is that the ex-premies, who have accused Maharaji of various things, will only be getting true justice when the things they have accused M of are proved wrong. That has not happened yet..They no way deserve this sort of attack.

Whatsmore, ll that the piqued premies have come up with on their various websites (itaintso.org, Glasser's page, CaC etc.) are unsubstantiated suggestions that their accusations are lies. No denial or confirmation from the accused himself I note.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:22:54 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Exactly Patrick
Message:
I agree with you completely.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:55:51 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Ya Patrick -- I think that...!
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:06:11 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: Re: No shame in remembering crazy premie types
Message:
Great post Patrick. I'm glad my post stirred up at least part of that. In regard to posting about actions of extreme authoritarian characters that did you harm - have at it. But I don't think it works to paint every current follower with the same holi gun sized paintbrush you'd paint David Smith with. I would also object to even his personal contact info be published for the same reasons I object to the CrAC heads publishing the stuff they did about ex's.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:57:49 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: David Smith wont care 'cause he has goats eyes. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:51:48 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: beautifully said, PatrickW
Message:
Thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful and long message.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:25:19 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Patrick Wilson
Subject: ::: G R E A T P O S T :::
Message:
I have absoulutely no compunction of writing on these public forums about my unpleasant experiences at the hands of various named authorative premies, like David Smith, who to my recollection, seemed to actually take some pleasure in humiliating and scaring people whilst exersizing his hard line approach to his 'service' as an instructor- persuading the likes of myself how worthless and useless we were, and how much we should surrender etc. and how deadly serious this whole ashram trip was. I mean these guys put the absolute fear of God into us and it does no harm to remind oneself and others that these guys exerted considerable intimidation on their captive audiences - largely because of the respect they commanded as Initiators, Instructors. (remember they were once called 'Mahatma's or 'Great Souls' - in retrospect that was an utterly risible title wasn't it? But one that gained them huge respect and credibility.)

In some ways of, course, most of us probably behaved badly at some times as zealous 'premies', but then we too should be able to admit that now, and come to terms with the fact that we were passing on a doctrine that fundamentally made some very 'heavy' demands, which of course were approved and endorsed by Maharaji himself. Smith just happened to be an outstandingly perfect example of the kind of nastiness that Maharaji, inadvertantly or otherwise, had bred in his more ardent followers. That fact that Smith appears stillunrepentant, and may be still in some position of trust within the organisation (anyone know about this?) singles him out to be deserving of criticism and even some confrontation, especially that quite a few people apparently still suffer nightmares about the guy twenty years down the line. I am not saying that people should be singled out and punished for their past, indeed I forgive all my abusers, but it is healthy to express ones anger and disdain for everything their former behaviour represents.

regarding www.stopcyberstalkers

I was wondering how I would react if CAC posted a page on me. Well, frankly I have such a clean, spotless past (and present) and I have absolutely zilch to be ashamed of, so they would really have to make something up or, at a stretch maybe, spin something nasty out of something truly innocuous that I have said or done. My consience is clear - apart from an incident in my childhood when I shot a bird with my airgun for which I am utterly repentant. People like Pat and Dave whose anger has been justified and whose sexual activities seem hardly to be uncommon or illegal should not be ashamed of expressing their feelings as they have done .

Anyway the upshot is that CAC have actually provided some entertainment and really done Maharaji a disservice at the nd of the day. Nobody apart from Sir Dave seems to be too upset about the whole thing and most of his blacklisted seem deliriously pleased to be mentioned. I think I would find it funny as opposed to being outraged, to be included.

After all, nobody takes this site seriously that I have spoken to. How could anybody? It's blatantly hypocritical to anyone who reads it! It's a joke. Let the poor CAC author carry on pretending that he has some genuinely altrusitic motives for his Jihad. In his dreams! No-one but a complete fool could possibly miss the glaring evidence that he has the agenda of a madman, a religious zealot... a terrorist in short. It's SO transparent. Nothing to be afraid of or threatened by. He just HATES freedom of speech as far as I can see.

I read a few lines of their intro to my work partner who joked 'Are you sure it doesn't say 'SupportCyberstalkers.com'. Anyway we both went on to have apoplectic hysterics at their profile of Gerry.

Nobody I know or work for would give a toss about anything they could possibly make up about me fortunately, and if anyone chose to judge me by the dubious profile that would no doubt accord me by this zealous fundamentalist, then I could do well without their admiration or friendship.

Frankly I am a bit sorry that Sir Dave took it so badly. No one could criticise him for his reaction since his main concern was his daughters safety. But I happen to think his fears were unfounded. Frankly I think that any danger to his family would have been extremely unlikely. I suppose that CACK can congratulate himself for having successfully Sir Dave and made himshut down his forum for what it's worth. (ie. a result worth nothing because the forums just pop up elsewhere).

I think this Cack fellow has already established a reputation with his readership (premies included - judging by people I have spoken with ) as being totally incredible, unethical and basically a rather sad loose cannon. So let him spin and threaten. The only threats that I would take remotely seriously are physical ones. But then, if this guy stooped to physical threats and was caught, he would be in really deep trouble. I am sure it's only one or two people who are particularly sad, bored, unemployed premies who could be bothered to waste so much time playing nasty practical jokes.

The only rather sad thing I have noticed about this episode is that some premies, although they say they think CAC is beyond the pale, then aside that they are really rather perversely pleased that ex-premies have had it coming etc. and somehow deserve this treatment. My feeling is that the ex-premies, who have accused Maharaji of various things, will only be getting true justice when the things they have accused M of are proved wrong. That has not happened yet..They no way deserve this sort of attack.

Whatsmore, ll that the piqued premies have come up with on their various websites (itaintso.org, Glasser's page, CaC etc.) are unsubstantiated suggestions that their accusations are lies. No denial or confirmation from the accused himself I note.


---

I love it. Spot on, as the Brits are fond of saying.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:45:47 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: i read my bio to my live -in girlfriend
Message:
Before she set off to work to support me. She cracked up laughing. Other than that she has expressed absolutely no interest in the mess. Totally indifferent.

She only hopes I don't spend too much time administering this forum.

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:20:51 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Isn't it time you married that woman?
Message:
Gerry, the ex-premie churchladies, of which I am a member, are wondering if it isn't about time for you to stop living in sin and marry your woman?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:40:22 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: ::: YES, G R E A T P O S T :::
Message:
Yes, a great post it was, indeed.

I saw David Smith give a presentation as recently as either 1997 or 1998. He's still around and he's weirder and more wooden than ever. David, it's time to cut your losses and get some therapy and start learning to love yourself and your fellow man again. Your idealized love of your Lord as Saint Peter is taking its toll.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:42:41 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: :: DS more wooden == is that possible? :: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:31:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Natural consequences
Message:
Richard,

I'm sorry but I think it IS about more than Rawat. A good example of what you're apparently taking issue with might be my own treatment of Joan Apter. I contacted her (harrassment? :) )and reported back what she had to say (invasion of privacy? :) ) and we all had a good well-deserved laugh at St. Joan's salvaging of premie gunk in the form of a ditzy, new-age consulting business.

All well-deserved and I'd love to argue the point with anyoen who thinks otherwise. That woman relished her exalted position as Joan the Baptist. She's got something to answer for. Hell, Richard, we all do. Her answer might be no more than 'God, I'm sorry. I was stuck in the same cult you were.' Fine. I'd buy that just as I did with Dettmers. But don't tell me she doesn't have a bit more to deal with than the average premie. Especially when she's still whitewashing the past for Maharaji and stumping for him as much as she's called upon to do so.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:42:13 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK Jim, I'll say it
Message:
Awhile back, you had dinner with Donner and Gary O and reported your adventure on the forum. As I recall, you trashed Donner soundly because he wasn't as interested in being a visible ex as you were. As a result, Donner later said he was persuded to post by you but was turned off by his subsequent public trashing on F3, 4, 5 whichever it was. In fact, he stayed away for a year or more and only posted in order to correct inaccuracies. Of course, all's well that end's well but my question is: was it a good thing he, for example stayed away?

Similar thing happened to Dettmers when he was outed and attacked on another ex site. To his credit, he stood in the goalies' cage and took the puck in the teeth, but was that a good thing to trash him and attack him like that?

Yes, we all have something to answer for but I think it's up to the individual to decide when, where and how much.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:07:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: OK Jim, I'll say it
Message:
Richard,

I hear you. All I can say is this. I beleive there are many, many former PAMs, instructors, whatever out there who already know about EPO and environs but who aren't involved and probably never will be involved. And they all have their reasons. Well, sorry, I'm not suspending my expression or opinions forever in the off chance that one of these dainty personalities just might, someday, feel the urge to speak out. When I described my dinner with Donner and Gary Ockendon I was just being honest, reporting the event for the benefit of those who wanted, maybe even needed to know what I found out. That's where we got our first solid ex-PAM confirmation about Maharaji's mistress and drug use. Yet, I know, I also ridiculed Donner's dinner speculations that Maharaji was sone sort of perfect part of a perfectly planned universe teaching us all perfect lessons. Donner read that on the site and didn't like my criticism of him as a little too 'new agey'. I know because when he finally did post he said so. Fine. The thing is, though, that Donner DID finally post, find his own voice here amongst those who not only left the cult but are willing to look back openly. We've sorted things out, I'd hope. He and I don't see eye-to-eye on some stuff but whatever. I'd like to think we have a good level of mutual respect now. No harm, no foul, in other words.

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:13:22 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: OK Jim, I'll say it
Message:
OK, clear. We all have different styles and that's what keeps the ball rolling here. And who are you calling a dainty personality or New Agey? Sorry, I'd love to hear more about you but I gotta go to my Course in Miracles support group right now.

Richard

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:58:05 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Style, Intent and Who Has Control, Anyway?
Message:
Awhile back, you had dinner with Donner and Gary O and reported your adventure on the forum. As I recall, you trashed Donner soundly because he wasn't as interested in being a visible ex as you were. As a result, Donner later said he was persuded to post by you but was turned off by his subsequent public trashing on F3, 4, 5 whichever it was. In fact, he stayed away for a year or more and only posted in order to correct inaccuracies. Of course, all's well that end's well but my question is: was it a good thing he, for example stayed away?

Similar thing happened to Dettmers when he was outed and attacked on another ex site. To his credit, he stood in the goalies' cage and took the puck in the teeth, but was that a good thing to trash him and attack him like that?

Yes, we all have something to answer for but I think it's up to the individual to decide when, where and how much.


---

You can't know that the pressures applied to Dettmers (in particular)
didn't affect his presence here. There seems to be a real connection
between what Jim did and Michael's eventual presence here.

I think Jim has a right to operate on any theory that suits him, so
long as it isn't illegal. I think you have the right to critique
that. I think I have the right to critique anything I hear on
this forum.

We all have lots of sweet and lucious rights here.

:::the internet interprets censorship as damage, and routes around it:::

Good thread.

a0aji

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:26:52 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Seville: It Tea
Message:
I agree with everything you say except there is a bit of wiggle room in the argument that notable premies have been unfairly mentioned on the forums. Names of current and past premies, and in many cases their websites or other personal info has been posted. Sometimes this was done benignly like 'I wonder what ever happened to so and so'. If someone has a website then no biggie because that's already public info. But often, because of the context in which they were mentioned, those people were trashed by present or past association with M and witch-hunted a bit. Am I wrong about this? Down below, Rich Mandrake very eloquently speaks to this point and I agree.

I came to the forums anonymously as a fencesitter and was grateful not to be outed, though I could have been. Recently I defended Martin Gray, whom I barely knew, against unwarranted accusations made simply because he was a former devotee and was requesting donations for his work. Somehow he was equated with M which I thought was wrong and said so.

I know for a fact that there are former followers, including PAMs, who will not post here because of the underlying (if only occassional) witch hunt atmosphere that happens. I have been in email contact with one person who wont post but has become an ex by reading the EPO archives.

OK, fine, maybe the forum is a more rough and tumble venue and not for everyone but I have to point out why others may take exception to postings about individuals, regardless of what CACa or other sites may do.


---

Some of my friends here mention other premies from our local
community -- none of whom, quite frankly, were anything but
low-tier gophers in the DLM family.

I don't understand the need to do that! What good does it do?

I think if you're angry with that person, then, ok, you may have
a good reason to want to vent and (admit it) embarass your target,
publicly (in this case, 'publicly' only means 'amongst other
premies and ex-premies reading this sordid forum').

It isn't so much that what is said here is harmful -- it is that
third, disinterested parties, could easily *search* here and dig
up dirt. I don't think people want exposure to that; so if their
name *is* their brand name (and it often is) why would they have
any need to gain that kind of exposure, willingly?

It's harmful because of how the media presents it as a story, mostly.
It's bad press. Unfortunately, what is said here is regarded as
press, in some instances. This is (again) my argument for a more
private venue.

People argue that a private venue would exclude others. I think it
quite the opposite -- it would include others who require a bit more
anonymity on a net-wide basis; it would also give a legal basis
(it is illegal to break into a passworded system) to claims of private
discourse here, which we currently do *Not* enjoy, afaict. We are
doing all this naked on the front lawn, and *that fact* is no one
person's 'fault' here.

It certainly behooves all of us (especially me; I mouth off plenty)
to watch what we say here, and to gently guide newcomers to do the
same.

To be honest, I think the tone here is a lot better than it's been
in a very long time. I think it's getting better as we progress.
Holding the door wide open (no passwords) is an inherantly larger
task we've set for ourselves -- a quantum leap in energy required,
to keep it civil.

The only thing that has ever worked in any of this is to set a great
example -- that sets the tone much more than anything else can, and
is infectious. But I'll tell you right now, I won't take the pledge,
to clean up my speech, because I'll feel a fool, the only civil voice
in the monkey-house, when (as it always does) all hell breaks loose
here, again.

2 cents worth, and speaking with temerity and lack of foresight-Ji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:54:37 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: As they still say in Canada, right on!
Message:
Joe,

I have visited boris several times, read his site and did few queries.

stopcyberstalker is owned and run by Boris. He is either an unemployed person, works part time or has someone else helping him. This is a charade and I don't believe that there are many people involved.

to begin with, I don't think it is the work of Glasser or EV. This is an individaual group of people composed of Boris, his wife and most likely some of the same people that owrked on Pia's site.

The site itself is hosted by da.ru a very strange and ambigious ISP. In fact da.ru is most likely not an ISP but a sub zone dynamic name service. It is very likely that it is a wholesale reseller of webhosting for register.com, which is a registrant and an ISP in the USA.

As for the contents of Boris's site, well it is made to confuse you and point you to the wrong direction. I have read somewhere what you have quoted, it is a lot of garbage.

the people that run the show at CAC are a bunch of amatures, they have no idea or a clue about what they are doing. they are hiding behind the fact that we all think that the site is hosted in Russia when in fact it is in the USA. I am not sure what contract condition does register.com gives, but that is easy to find. for those that live in the USA please contact them and enquire. The plug could be on your side. And hey the legal crap that's on their site was compiled by a lawyer, only it is not Charles but Boris's wife. How many lawyer female in America are

Cat, my fiancee, is American; she is a criminologist, she travels a lot, but manages to spend a lot of time her with me here.

married to a Russian. Jim check your register.

Don't be threatened, blackmailed, intimidated...etc by those idiots. They can be tracked down.

Salam

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 18:07:29 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Hey Salam- your post deserves its own thread- [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:41:04 (EDT)
From: wimp
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: when you write to...
Message:
abuse@register.com they give a link to their abuse policies.
Also was posted on the old new forum. Write to them, get the url!
Or, sigh look here:
http://www.register.com/service-agreement.cgi?1|2629064020|
in particular:
read this part:
Prohibited Conduct
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 12:57:52 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: :::message in a bottle:::
Message:
Deborah asked me to post for her because she is banned.


---
quote
---

Carlos and Isabella: Thank them for me, they are wonderful.

---
unquote
---


---
quote
---

David Anderson: Tell him I am not paranoid, this is not a conspiracy theory, it is a blackmail website that is really up in the web. This is not an imaginary fear.

---
unquote
---

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 16:44:11 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: :: she wasn't banned from here -- my mistake :: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:01:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Deb and I are banned from LG, not here
Message:
Deb and I are banned from LG, not here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:51:39 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Deb and I are banned from LG, not here
Message:
Deb and I are banned from LG, not here.


---

That makes more sense.

Well, I don't actually visit there. I got sucked down the
rabbit-hole by accident once; posted back and forth with you
there, till I got my bearings and realized I was in the
twilight zone.

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:19:18 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: why is she banned?
Message:
who banned her?

Tell her I tried to e-mail her but my e-mail bounced back.

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:27:54 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: salam
Subject: Re: why is she banned?
Message:
who banned her?

Tell her I tried to e-mail her but my e-mail bounced back.


---

You know I just don't know .. I was passing on her (somewhat
cryptic) message, which arrived in today's e-mail.

BTW I made friends with a muslim family last year -- wonderful
people (Pakistanis).

Khadafis. (sp?)

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:27:11 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: why is she banned?
Message:
what is your e-mail?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:36:41 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: why is she banned?
Message:
who is losing e-mails now?

I haven't written to you because I have 3 e-mails and don't know which one to use. Been long time since I spoke to you. e-mail me

Salam.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 12:19:18 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Back from vacation in the US
Message:
Guess what ?

I've brought a lot of new stuff for EPO ....

1/ People Weekly magazine article June 75
2/ My (borrowed) copy of 'Sacred Journeys'
3/ About 220 more pages of the 'Paramhansa Advait Mat' book, with details on Shiv Dayal, Sarupanand, Vairag Anand, pictures etc (borrowed the book from the Harvard library)

and some other secret stuff ...

Don't expect this to be tomorrow on EPO, that will take a few weeks. Hundreds of new pages will be online.

Don't understand much of the caca issue. Would someone summerize the whole issue ?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:51:31 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Back from vacation in the US
Message:
Dear JM,
Where in America were you this time? I think I have found my own place again so if your every in or near Pennsylvania you let me know, ok?
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 21:58:47 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Back from vacation in the US
Message:
Hi JM, I just got back from vacation today.
Too bad, I would have liked to visit you in Boston.
I had a wedding of the 23 yr old boy who grafted himself to us when he was 10 and his mom was on heroin. I made him a bedroom and he settled in. His Mom didnt mind, heroin has a way of doing that kind of thing. So his wedding went well, and then we went to Cape Cod for
a week. Provincetown, about the finest beach town in the northeast.

The gay forum members would be happy there.
The boris thing is a fraud, it is just a front of some other premies.
Mili perhaps, he is very adept with computer things.
Not that this clumsy belligerance of the cult will help them.

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 22:11:23 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@hafey.com
To: bill
Subject: Yeah I think it's Mili, too [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:45:32 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hi Jean-Michel
Message:
Glad you had a safe trip and didn't get stopped at customs for being an anti-cultist!

Hope you're well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:34:41 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hi, J-M, hope you had a good vacation
Message:
I'm sorry that you have been included on that ugly CACA site but I am very proud to have my name mext to yours.
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:03:53 (EDT)
From: silvia, afraid of maharaji's POWER
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Here is your page at CAC
Message:
link:

http://www.stopcyberstalkers.org/jean-michel-khan.htm

Sit down well to read it: It may make you a little mad.

I hope your vacation was a fun one: it seems it was. ;)

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:08:59 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: silvia, afraid of maharaji's POWER
Subject: Re: Here is your page at CAC
Message:
I'm glad to discover that so many people love me, finally !!!
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:06:07 (EDT)
From: Georgette H.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Perhaps COMBAT would like to do a follow up [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:39:41 (EDT)
From: Roger AK eDrek
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Glad you slipped through the U.S. dragnet
Message:
We ask readers to provide us with any leads that may help institutionalize him or extradite him to the U.S.

J-M, thank god they didn't catch you here in the U.S. Must be some of that good old spy training you got when you worked for the KGB.

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:54:17 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Roger AK eDrek
Subject: Nice work, comrade.
Message:
I trust you got the materials in OK?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(snicker)
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:32:14 (EDT)
From: silvia, afraid of maharaji's POWER
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I do, and admire your courage
Message:
and determination to expose what you know.

I had the pleassure to meet you in person and of sharing few days, with your company and that of other ex-premies we visited together.
You are a very nice person.

Even that our trip around US was not all great all the time, I know who you are.

The police scene was funny though: I will never forget it! hahahahahaha......those teeth...LOL

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 12:29:35 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Back from vacation in the US
Message:
There's a new site - www.stopcyberstalkers.org. It gives personal details of a number of exes including some communist ex-instructor in France. It's hosted by a Russian ISP, and the domain is owned by some Russian guy called Boris who says he lives in Moscow.

Sir Dave was one of the victims and got very upset about the address where his children live being given as his address (he lives elsewhere), and a photo of himself with his daughter being published. He decided that he could not risk his family, and so acceded to their demands for him to close all his sites, and stop 'cyber stalking' Maharaji. Sir Dave has therefore retired from on-line anti Maharaji activities, and CAC have removed his entry from their site.

Other exes have made copies of his Truth about Maharaji site, and I have all the F6 archives. Gerry started F7 to continue the debate.

EV have issued a statement condemning these types of sites.

At the same time, I received a request from EV to remove the 'harboring a paedophile' allegation. I have done this (although all the evidence remains), and I'll email you to let you know my current thinking.

John.

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 17:18:09 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Back from vacation in the US
Message:
John, Is ''The Truth About Maharaji'' available somehow? I tried to get things downloaded, but couldn't get anything before it was all shut down. I had read some of the ''truth'' site, but there was so much more I wanted to learn. I'd love it if you can tell me where I can find that info. Thanks! Timmi
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:10:19 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Back from vacation in the US
Message:
Great !!!!!
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:23:03 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: good to see you here
Message:
and since your a commie and Boris a russkie, do you think you can work out somwthing :)
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:31:36 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Salam
Subject: Re: good to see you here
Message:
Yeah, you commies all alike. All Your Base Are Belong To Us!

Good to see you here, Jean-Michel.

Chris (And On Anand Ji)

Follow the link if interested in a new private forum to discuss
the future of some of the web sites associated with the Ex Premies.
[ [Sign Up Sheet] ]

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:42:20 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: I just e-mailed you
Message:
check your yahooji mail
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:47:27 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: ::tnx I will:: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 14:15:22 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: don't you talk to me like that
Message:
or dissappear. What's next?
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 15:32:18 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: ::Lcueless in eSattle::
Message:
or dissappear. What's next?


---

care to share with the rest of the class?

I sense a massive nonsequitur energy build-up on the event horizon

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