Steve Quint -:- Letter To Maharaji -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 12:00:35 (EDT)

Vera -:- Bill Patterson, Claudia -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:36:53 (EDT)

Mail Carrier -:- Milli-FROM Lifes (sic) Great -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 09:48:35 (EDT)

Silvia -:- Is reasoning with premies worthless??? -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 09:20:30 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Reasoning with Premies: Oxymoron -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 12:01:21 (EDT)

__ Me -:- Enslaved? Noooo! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 12:00:02 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Enslaved? Noooo! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 12:08:16 (EDT)

btdt -:- carl's post -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:55:20 (EDT)

__ cq -:- Re: carl's post -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:45:55 (EDT)

__ ggg -:- Re: Carl's 2nd post to Harry -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:44:35 (EDT)

__ __ RichMandrake -:- I Agree. Brilliant Post -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 10:03:32 (EDT)

Bang the Magnificent -:- Life on the farm -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 03:56:13 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Re: Life on the farm -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 08:37:53 (EDT)

__ George Orwell -:- All Rawat cult members are equal but.... -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:46:29 (EDT)

__ janet -:- into bestiality, are you? -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:23:45 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Life on the farm - a load of crap -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:32:11 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- Re: Life on the farm - a load of crap -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:23:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Life on the farm - a load of crap -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:30:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Sausages, frankfurters and links -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:34:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Sausages, frankfurters and links -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:38:22 (EDT)

Jim -:- At the Back of the North Wind -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 00:00:48 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Life is great -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:19:02 (EDT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Life is great -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:17:27 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Good Post, Pat... -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:04:29 (EDT)

__ __ Silvia -:- Good Post!!! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 09:35:32 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- Re: Life is great -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:53:56 (EDT)

__ __ Tonette -:- I hope your surgery went well. OT -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:45:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I knew it. You're a lover -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:49:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Sigmoid colon, you can live without it! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:02:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- How did Tonette's message appear here? -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:31:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- What on earth are turbinates? -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:18:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Located in the nose -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:43:59 (EDT)

salam -:- CW -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 20:27:53 (EDT)

Loco -:- couldn't have said it better -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 20:21:16 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Really? -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 22:23:07 (EDT)

__ __ Loco -:- Ahh uhm Jim -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 23:29:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Okie dokie -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 23:52:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Loco -:- Re: Okie dokie -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 02:24:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Okie dokie -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:07:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Loco -:- Re: Okie dokie -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:37:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Learn to spell! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:41:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Yes, but -:- the WhoIS search really doesn't... -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 06:10:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Use a decent search program -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:47:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ A S Fisher -:- Re: Charles Glasser's website -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:44:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nice going Mr Fisher -:- please tell who come u acting -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:41:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- It's significant in what it doesn't say. -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:40:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Re: It's significant in what it doesn't say. -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:42:49 (EDT)

pierre -:- amazing (without the grace) -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:13:52 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- Re: amazing (without the grace) -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:40:00 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Hi Pierre, nice to meet you -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:30:30 (EDT)

__ __ pierre -:- Hi JHB & Pat -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:09:44 (EDT)

Jim -:- Question for premies -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:34:37 (EDT)

__ Tonette -:- Re: Question for premies -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 03:54:02 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Bliss versus sanity -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:09:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Bliss versus sanity -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:11:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Maharajism not mercury -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:19:57 (EDT)

__ Nick -:- Not strictly true, Jim -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:34:20 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- This, Nick, is a most important post! -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:43:37 (EDT)

__ __ Thanks Nick -:- Re: Not strictly true, Jim -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:47:56 (EDT)

__ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Question for premies -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:12:41 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Always a pleasure, Jer -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:47:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Slight embarrassment time -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:59:13 (EDT)

__ CW -:- Re: Question for premies -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 18:36:09 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- I'm not interested in what you say, Cat -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:48:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: I'm not interested in what you say, Cat -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:18:34 (EDT)

__ __ Silvia -:- Sherlock! NT -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:13:15 (EDT)

__ Passibg Through -:- Re: Question for premies -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 16:57:13 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Good post, PT (?? LOL !!) -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:50:23 (EDT)

__ __ Jerry -:- Re: Question for premies -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 18:56:00 (EDT)

__ __ Bin Liner -:- What fictitious principles ? -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 18:02:12 (EDT)

__ Menache Bernstain -:- Re: Question for premies -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 16:30:10 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Re: Question for premies -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:55:28 (EDT)

__ __ Gregg -:- The ghost of Richard Nixon -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:12:16 (EDT)

Tife -:- The ultimate Art -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:15:43 (EDT)

__ Jerry -:- How ironic -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:50:22 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- a recent disproof to the breath -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 06:50:10 (EDT)

pierre -:- Like the story of the Old empty Barn -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:38:15 (EDT)

__ This is Premie Spam -:- Breathing is great, but what has it... -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 15:27:32 (EDT)

__ salsa but no ketchup -:- HE CAN SHOW A LOT! -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:21:55 (EDT)

cq -:- If it works, who wouldn't use it? -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 09:34:03 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Picture this... -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:33:01 (EDT)

__ Tonette -:- Does that bring back a memory! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:23:49 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- Re: Does that bring back a memory! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:20:38 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- Re: Does that bring back a memory! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:01:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ cq -:- Re: Does that bring back a memory! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:25:51 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Holy Cow, Tonette! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:35:40 (EDT)

__ Peg -:- Is this really true ? -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:18:46 (EDT)

__ __ cq -:- Re: Is this really true ? -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 08:01:20 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Is this really true ? -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:59:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ Peg -:- Re:Re; Is this really true ? -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:00:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- I had a premie husband too! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 06:09:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Re:Re; Is this really true ?? -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:17:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- My One Cent -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:59:44 (EDT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Pieces to the puzzle here, thanks cq -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 15:37:36 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Maha does use it? -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 15:03:33 (EDT)

__ Silvia -:- Some reasons why I hate Rawat -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 09:50:38 (EDT)

Bob -:- Michael Jackson -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 08:30:13 (EDT)

[Blank] -:- Boris -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 05:46:32 (EDT)

__ teeth -:- Get lost, asshole! -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:28:44 (EDT)

__ __ [Blank] -:- Re: Get lost, asshole! -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 02:26:18 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- Oh, Lord of Hosts, Provider of this Universe -:- Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:46:06 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Amen. Praise the lord and pass the affidavits [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 01:09:53 (EDT)

__ __ such -:- avid Davids? ok... -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 02:45:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Bye, I'm leaving -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 04:53:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Bob -:- Re: Bye, I'm leaving -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 08:16:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Exactly, Bob -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 13:29:24 (EDT)

Loco -:- could this be rob e-mail? -:- Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:36:22 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- That's interesting -:- Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:40:43 (EDT)

__ __ [Blank] -:- Re: That's interesting -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 00:29:45 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- And when Jesus was thus criticized by Judas -:- Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 22:34:14 (EDT)

__ janet -:- nahhhh. PPSR aint no son o god -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 03:53:51 (EDT)

__ michael donner -:- Re: And when Jesus was thus criticized by Judas -:- Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:46:27 (EDT)

__ __ Jorge -:- Re: And when Jesus was thus criticized by Judas -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 07:25:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ Silvia -:- OT -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 09:25:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jorge -:- Re: OT -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 13:27:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ yo -:- Re: OT -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 14:33:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jorge -:- Re: OT -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 16:28:48 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Judas got a bad rap -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 00:45:59 (EDT)

Steve Quint -:- Is There A Real Threat To Anybody's Safety -:- Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 20:40:31 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Yes, Steve, yours! -:- Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:41:36 (EDT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Re: Yes, Steve, yours! -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:11:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Steve -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:45:57 (EDT)

__ __ Joey -:- Re: Yes, Steve, yours! -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 08:17:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Oh great ...... -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 10:36:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: Oh great ...... -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:10:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, wish I did -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:40:23 (EDT)

__ One of the CAC Victims -:- Until Maharaji says something, YES -:- Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 20:49:00 (EDT)

__ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Until Maharaji says something, YES -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 02:55:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Until Maharaji says something, YES -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 18:45:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Darshan dream agya -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:22:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- God Peter, that's scary -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:54:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ Bob -:- he is too scared -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 08:27:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Nice, Peter - the Monty Python jihad -:- Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 04:58:00 (EDT)

__ __ Steve Quint -:- Maharaji Should Issue Common Sense Statements -:- Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 21:42:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ such -:- Right,Steve! + take care of yourself,bro. P+L [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:34:48 (EDT)

Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 12:00:35 (EDT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Letter To Maharaji Message:

I have written numerous letters and emails to Maharaji over 20 years and have received not one response from him. I have one more thing to say to him, and will do so here and now. There is a chance he might receive the information through this channel. Maharaji: You have said and implied that you were God. Many people in our society believe that God controls their destiny, in this life and after death as well. Now you deny, beyond all evidence and in great insult to the memories of your current and former devotees, that you ever said or implied you were God. Many people who trusted you, gave you all their time, attention and money, placed their destinies in your hands, are now confused. Do not play with peoples' relationships with God. Don't you see the psychological damage and confusion this causes? Come clean and make a public statement about this, including information on exactly who you are and why you had peple believe you were God or 'greater than God'. This includes sitting quietly many many times while people sang such verses to you as 'Our lord's the superior power in person, I bow down before such a wonderful lord' and 'The lord of the universe has come to us this day'. Please stop playing with people's lives and deepest concerns as if they were so much debris. Steven Quint

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:36:53 (EDT) From: Vera Email: None To: All Subject: Bill Patterson, Claudia Message:

I remember some years ago seeing an 'interview with Bill Patterson', and a description of Claudia's lawsuit (against EV?), on an ex-premie site(s). Does anyone know where these pages are now, or - alternately - can anyone update me on the activities they discussed? Thanks, V

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 09:48:35 (EDT) From: Mail Carrier Email: None To: All Subject: Milli-FROM Lifes (sic) Great Message:

Posted: Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 02:24:01 (EDT) Original: NA Posted by: Mili Recipient: All Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) Message Count: 81 visits (2 today, 81 this week, 2 this month, 81 this year) Subject: Today's EV Newsletter Message: All your life, you desired freedom. The day when you turn within is the day when you achieve your freedom. You have found the open window, you now know how to escape. You have found the key to the prison. Simplicity, every day, is yours. You are then able to come, to be alive, to celebrate this existence, to listen to the Master and say, 'Thank you. Thank you for what you told me. Because what you told me, no one else ever did. They tried to, but their words did not come from the heart.' It is in the Master's Knowledge, it is in his wisdom, it is in his teachings that his proof lies. It is not in a certificate. The Master who removes the inner ignorance does not have a certificate hanging on the wall saying, 'Remover of Ignorance.' It hangs in the heart of all those from whom he has removed the ignorance. That's where you will find that certificate.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 09:20:30 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: All Subject: Is reasoning with premies worthless??? Message:

I think it is. And why premies refuse to reason properly if not to protect their dream? Because is just a dream. What maharaji teaches doesn't make any sense and I say that by having studied his words in my service as aspirant contact. Five months of preparation/brainwashing to become a cult member....then you can receive Knowledge.... Gurus of his caliber justify their empty words saying that K is not for everyone and that only few can understand... with the heart.... but then, why he talks so much to his devotees? Does the heart understand words? Yeah, you can justify that too. But he talks to people's minds, doesn't he? Why people continue watching videos and satellite events WEEKLY and feel lost without his empty words if 'all what you are looking for is inside of you'? Why is there a need to listen to that empty garbage? Because premies depend on it. Isn't? Their need to hear the same over and over again is a learned, programmed behavior, because the teacher, the not so friendly teacher wants it that way. But premies are in a stage that they have surrendered their reasoning power. They cannot ask anymore why they do what they do. They got trapped by the teacher's lies and empty promises and happily have bought a dream. They became cult members but insist they are not in a cult. (?) Maharaji says is not a cult. Maharaji doesn't lie. Maharaji is this, and that... premies believe.... He himself tells his devotees openly to 'never question the master'. How convenient! And yes, his devotees are sheep....and do not want to contradict the one enslaving them, and do not question him. They respect maharaji too much to even consider that maybe they are being lied to. Is that REAL freedom? You were denied the right to think for yourself and you call HIM a friend, your best friend? Something is very wrong there. But I understand. I was were you are right now; blinded by the appearances.... Since I began to read forum 5 as an ex-premie I have noticed premies' failure to reason sincerely about our allegations, plus proof against maharaji: He is a fraudulent person/master/guru. However, time after time premies have avoided answering our questions. Time after time these premies have attacked us with stupid arguments but avoided acknowledging OUR reasons, well explained ones, and chose to lie to us and to themselves to continue proclaiming maharaji is a good teacher. We cannot reason with these premies. We cannot. These people many of you ex-premies (I'm not good at it) try to reason with have lost many of their capacities in the name of happiness and bliss. They are gone mentally. They have crossed dangerous lines and have become something very weird, very programmed, very insane, very irrational, very scared, very confused, very empty. To understand anything one have to first want to know and the bottom line is that a devotee, a premie doesn't want to know what they are doing with their lives for the simple reason that they have bought the dream, the fantasy maharaji sells, and since they have followed it for more than two decades, they are gone. They do not welcome logic because the teacher, their best 'friend' programmed them to hate the REAL truth. He frabricated TRUTH for them, a lie. WE ARE FREE SINCE WE ARE BORN AND WE DO NOT NEED A GURU TO ENSLAVE OUR MINDS INTO HIS FALSE BELIEFS. GET IT? I feel somewhat sorry for the premies who are trapped in the cult: There is no valid justification for the kind of silly life they live. I'm very bothered very much by the fact that they recruit and deceive new people into the cult just because they cannot reason anymore. Becoming fanatic cult members killed their need for good logic. Don't you think?

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 12:01:21 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Reasoning with Premies: Oxymoron Message:

I agree. You said it well. There was a point in my life when no one could tell me that m was not the lord, and that I was in a cult. I've concluded that the Maharajism cult is much more dangerous than I ever imagined. For premies to answer questions is nearly impossible. The ones who set up the CAC site are dilerious with joy at having done some service to their lord. How does one reason with that? I've tried. Knocked my head against that wall of cult-thinking. There's an excuse for every question we ask. There's a rationalization for every one of the guru's failings. Yet, we're here, right? I was in the gopi club. I was physically close to the bastard. I held onto my beliefs until my mind came clean with me: this is a bunch of shit, Cynthia--he's a fraud. So, while reasoning with premies is an oxymoron, there are premies out there who just need a push, a nudge, a possibility that they won't die if they reject the cult. That's all I can hope for, and of course, my own increasing understanding of how I got there and out. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 12:00:02 (EDT) From: Me Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Enslaved? Noooo! Message:

WE ARE FREE SINCE WE ARE BORN AND WE DO NOT NEED A GURU TO ENSLAVE OUR MINDS INTO HIS FALSE BELIEFS. GET IT? You think yourself free? This is the best joke in years! You are enslaved by: - your prejudices - your concepts - your judgement of yourself and others - the ideas of others that you have assumed as yours - the fact that you post here so often - the fact that you consider yourself right and others wrong - the fact that you have a NEED to 'reason with premies' Your are not free lady. Your are as enslaved as you can get. Wake up! Me

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 12:08:16 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Me Subject: Re: Enslaved? Noooo! Message:

Your name is me? Come on! The content of your post above is filled with prejudices, concepts, judgment of others, the ideas of another (Maharaji) that you have consumed, the fact you consider youself right and Silvia wrong, and your need to attach youself to the need to respond to open and honest discussion here--a place where former followers of Maharaji come to have discussion, and you posted here. You can't see the forest for the trees. The forest is real freedom, not that big ole log who sits on his throne in order to keep you as HIS, and enslave you with his brainwash. Wake up! Wake Up! WAKE UP! Me, Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:55:20 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: All Subject: carl's post Message:

is carl's 8/30 post on LG brought over? I can't find it and it's good. If so, excuse the new thread.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:45:55 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: carl's post Message:

Here 'tis: http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=5157.90546191065518 Posted: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 08:20:57 (EDT) Original: NA Posted by: Carl Recipient: All Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) Message Count: 103 visits (5 today, 103 this week, 5 this month, 103 this year) Subject: For Harry to consider. Message: You say something very curious, Harry: 'So, the central thrust of this man's [M's} teachings has virtually nothing to do with lifestyle, judgement, circumstances and personal behavior choices.' Let me ask: Just how valid, sincere, inspiring or effective would be the teaching of a writer who doesn't write, of a musician who won't or cannot perform adequately, of a meditator who doesn't meditate, of an investment counselor who begs for alms, a mathematician who cannot count to ten? Some people may be excused for thinking that a 'true spiritual master' would proffer more than banalities and impart more than public domain meditation techniques in an atmosphere of secrecy and exclusivity while exacting personal adoration and cash from his devotees. Does M position himself as God incarnate, or even greater than God? Yes he does. Now, don't be coy, Harry. You know this is the fundamental subtext to the whole enterprise. Does M now lie about that? Yes he does. Does M continue to arrange for activities such as arti/darshan/footkissing to take place? Yes he does. Did M cause the death of another man and lie about it to avoid all responsibility? Yes he did. Did M knowingly put children and others into harms way by deciding to facilitate and promote the proselytising activities of certain 'saints' who had violent and/or psychosexual pathologies, thereby inflicting serious physical and psychological damage upon a number of victims? Yes he did. Did or does M regularly ingest alcohol and other drugs while at the same time promoting an experience of inner divinity and peace, and yet condemn the use of the same drugs he ingests? Evidently, yes. Does he claim or assume a divine status, far above mere mortals, for doing this. Yes he does. Does M fail to see any hypocrisy in this? Evidently, yes. Does M enrich himself and his immediate family in an astoundingly lavish and opulent lifestyle far, far in excess of any need, primarily on donated or psychologically coerced labor of 'followers' around the world? Yes he does. Does M regard himself as above the laws of this world that are designed to mete out justice equally for all people regardless of their social standing? One wonders about that. I would like you to review the following material and report back please: Identifying Traits of Abusive Groups We offer a shorthand list followed by a longer list of cultic traits compiled from: Recovery From Cults, by Michael D. Langone, Captive Hearts, Captive Minds, by Madeleine Tobias and Janja Lalich, 'Crazy' Therapies, by Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich, Combating Cult Mind Control, by Steven Hassan Michael Langone, in his article 'Cults, Violence, and the Millennium,' suggests the following three characteristics as essential in the definition of a cultic group: 1. centralized control by a charismatic leader 2. an us-versus-them mentality that isolates 3. a lack of tolerance for dissent Compiled list: 1.Control-oriented leadership – leader claims to be an all-knowing, liberated being. 2.Hierarchical structure with an elite inner circle – including leader’s assistants. 3.Group leader not accountable to any authorities, as are, for example: military commanders, and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations. 4.Polarized us-versus-them, black-or-white mentality causing conflict with wider society. 5.Manipulation of members by alternating guilt/anxiety/fear/ostracism and attention. 6.Group perception of being spiritually unique/elite and separate from normal culture. 7.Denunciation of other spiritual/religious leaders and groups. 8.Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about group and leader. 9.Spiritual practices emphasize experience rather than rationality. 10.Sexual abuse - leader uses power to sexually exploit members. 11.Economic exploitation of members by leader and assistants. 12.Confidentiality of members private affairs (legal, medical) violated by leader and assistants. 13.Members’ subservience to group causes them to cut or weaken ties with family, friends, and personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining group. 14.Reliance on outside professional help, doctors, therapists, etc., discouraged. 15.Leader poses as self-sacrificing divine agent who only promotes members’ well-being. 16.Service is inner directed toward the group not the surrounding community. 17.Revamping of members’ cultural/moral values to suit leader’s lifestyle and program. 18.Conformity to group’s/leader’s values, life style, mode of dress, diet, esthetics, and so on. 19.Promotion of dependence on group/leader – often disguised. 20.Important personal decisions must be approved by leader – members seek his blessing. 21.Phobia induction vis-à-vis leaving the group/leader. 22.Painful exit process – ex-members ridiculed, threatened, and dumped. Note: If you check any of these items as characteristics of the group you are concerned about, and particularly if you check many of them, you should reexamine the group and your relationship to it. Such reexamination usually runs against the dictates of the group leaders and will be difficult for the member to do. Begin by speaking to outside health and legal professionals and ex-members. If your group is indeed healthy and non-abusive, there is nothing to fear from taking these cautionary steps. --- --- - Thought provoking, yes? You see, Harry, life is great, even while challenging one's assumptions and delusions. Your breath by breath awareness and freedom can only improve when you are free of cultish dependency. You may even find yourself 'closer to God' and much more in tune with, and in love with, the breath of life. Good luck, buddy. Carl

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:44:35 (EDT) From: ggg Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: Carl's 2nd post to Harry Message:

Here you are:- Harry, Let's look at this then, without rancor: 'Carl, Other than reciting the telephone-enhanced version of Dettmers' laundry list and re-printing your handbook, which could apply to everyone from the Dallas Cowboys to the Rastafarians, you haven't dealt with a single question I posed. --- --- --- Your questions do not address the real issues, one of which is the hypocrisy of a man positioning himself as God Almighty, and then attempting to publicly backpedal that when it became inconvenient or embarrassing, yet to perpetuate that concept as an underlying premise of his current entrepreneurship. Sorry, but that is frankly dishonest. Surely you must see this. As far as the 'laundry list' and the cult 'handbook', they are both useful compendia of salient issues, given our mutual interest. Although I understand your discomfort and denial with dealing with the 'laundry list' and marvel at your blithe dismissal -- more like willful ignorance -- of those questions (btw, what do you mean by 'telephone enhanced'?), the 'handbook' is, as I said, a useful tool for evaluating whatever group with which you may choose to be involved: Unitarian, Rastafarian, Rotarian, or even Mahararian. Enjoy. --- --- --- Here they are again. If you're going to attempt to answer, please do so based on something resembling actual reality from the last two decades. Recycled, revised and re-written conclusions of others doesn't pass muster. --- --- --- I suppose the ten commandments wouldn't past muster either, not having been generated within the last few years. I suspect nothing an 'ex' writes will pass muster with you (as if one needed your approval!) Don't forget, however, that the whole K trip is/was couched in an absolutist, eternal and cosmic framework. Timeless truths, you might say. So your two decade threshhold of tolerance is a little silly. But no matter, we shall go forward. --- --- --- As far as 'banalities' and 'public domain meditation techniques' (another parroted slogan) goes, those are clearly in the eye of the beholder and I'd imagine you wouldn't have characterized them so at other points in your own life. --- --- --- The 'banalities' refer to the self-evident common sense notions that M has himself been 'parroting' for years. As for 'public domain meditation techniques' (a useful phrase, even as a cliche it seems to threaten you a bit . . . sorry, brother!) I still practice them daily and derive IMMENSE benefit from doing so. While it is true I would not have dared to think of them in these terms, that I do so now in no way diminishes them. In fact, having left the self-limiting manacles of cult involvement, the enjoyment is much more sublime. But I really don't care whether you believe that or not, sorry. --- --- --- I see profound wisdom, delivered regularly with humor, empathy and clarity, and the strongest, most effective and simplest way to completely and reliably center and satisfy a person being offered. It has worked for me through every conceivable stage and thrill and spill of my life. It has worked with and without various belief systems. It has worked beautifully for every imaginable type of human being, utterly independent of their location and circumstance. If that's meaningless to you, then so be it. I think that's an astounding achievment. --- --- --- Here we may have points of agreement, Harry. Like many, perhaps most, 'exes', I still value the practice of meditation. And I agree that it is a most efficacious centering and peace-inducing practice. It has accompanied me through almost 30 years of, shall we say, an interesting life, and I cherish the inner world as my refuge and source of wisdom and love. But what we need to recognize is that it is not the big secret -- nor need it be -- about which M makes such an issue, and, it must be acknowledged, through which he has amassed an inordinately lavish, if not decadent, personal fortune. I understand you will find it convenient to rationalize his behaviour, and that is your right, and your problem. Others have a right to question that, and that is their problem. Meanwhile, the business keeps chugging along, with the K as carrot that can never be bought, but which is paid for over and over and over again. Some people have an instinctive problem with that. You may not appreciate that. That's fine. The thing is, the K is simply not the exclusive province of M and Co. Believe it or not. --- --- --- This time, please try to read what's actually written, not your own mental mutterings. --- --- --- Now Harry, please don't be snotty. Everything you write could just as well be called 'mental mutterings', yes? Don't resort to cheap shots, it is unbecoming and dishonorable. --- --- --- What percentage of Maharaji's time and teachings would you say have been dedicated to telling others how to behave, how not to behave, who to fall in love with, what to look like, what to eat, how to express yourself, who to have sex with or what to believe blindly? How much marriage counseling and love life advice has Maharaji given from the stage? Or off it? Whose personal habits have you heard him publicly criticize? What age, physical condition, sexual preference, religious background, nationality, literacy level or affluence status have you seen him unable to deal with or accept? --- --- --- Again, Harry, these aren't even the issues worth addressing. 'Percentage of time' on your own 'laundry list'? Come on, lad. Get with the program: HE is/was/will ever be the self-styled incarnate 'Lord of the Universe' (whether formerly explicitly stated or currently denied yet implicitly communicated). As such he meticulously directed the behaviours of tens of thousands who, willingly, innocently, accepted the whole routine. I am surprised that you are surprised that people may have been sincere enough to take him at his word, and who were dedicated to the knowledge and to him personally, at what ever distance, and who felt profoundly betrayed when his manifestly selfish agenda became harder and harder to deny. Go figure. --- --- --- What does any of this gossip, snottiness, victimhood and speculation have to do with what he teaches? Which happens to be, in case you've forgotten, regular reminders to find, know and immerse one's self in the pure, perfect and infinite within. That hasn't changed one bit. If you don't find the infinite and timeless to be impressive and it's a little too ordinary and mundane for your taste...so be it. --- --- --- Again, points of agreement and points of divergence: What you characterize as 'gossip, snottiness, victimhood and speculation' I might call 'personal testimony, fair criticism, sharing and communication'. Eye of the beholder, indeed. The 'reminders' are sweet, clear and charming for many, no doubt. That's fine and dandy. But there is a powerful subtext that accompanies all of these reminders, no? To acknowledge M as the only one who can afford you 'salvation' and you had better understand that or you are damned, and, by the way, 'please support me monetarily in my 'work' '. --- --- --- Can you answer based on what you have seen and felt, yourself? --- --- --- I always do, Harry. --- --- --- Anything you've 'heard' is of no interest to me whatsoever, as I've spent enough time around Maharaji to judge for myself how he is both on and off 'stage. --- --- --- You are not the only one, my friend. --- --- --- Do you realize that the behavioral cage you've tried to place Maharaji into is entirely based on theory and doesn't apply to anyone else on earth? Do you apply the same standard to what a brilliant musician is supposed to act like, what a painter is supposed to eat, should architects enjoy after dinner cognacs? How much should a writer weigh? What should or shouldn't Ray Charles smoke? How long should a mathematician's hair be? Are exceptionally perceptive people not allowed to notice beauty in earthly as well as ephemeral formats? Does that make them 'lower', higher or neither? --- --- --- Again, you persist in deflecting the main issues into these 'red-herring' ideas. Neither I nor anyone I know has tried to 'place M into a behavioural cage' (that wouldn't be a slogan now would it? Just joshing!) Seriously, no rational or wisdom-loving person would question or judge M (or any teacher, or anyone for that matter) about issues of deep importance, based upon the length of his hair or his diet or weight or superficial markers. Come now, this is not the issue. The main issue has more to do with his being honest and straightforward about his claims and revisions of claims, to acknowledge and try to rectify his human fuck-ups (please excuse the term, but they are legion and well-documented elsewhere), and to diminish or dismantle the abhorrent citadel of greed that is his most evident life's work. You know, 'exceptionally perceptive people' are going to notice beauty in earthly as well as ephemeral formats whether they are 'allowed' to or not. This also is not the question. No one denies anyone that right. The point is, Harry, many of us have noted a profound imbalance in our lives as cogs in M's world, K notwithstanding. Part of that has to do with the dissonance between M's relentlessly vaunted 'divinity' and the abject codependency of the average premie. So, does that make them 'lower', higher or neither? You tell me. Best wishes, Carl P.S.: Here is a selection from Lao Tzu. Hope you won't object that it predates our era by 2500 years or so! 'Be humble and you will remain entire.' He who has little will receive. He who has much will be embarrassed. Therefore the Sage keeps to One and becomes the standard for the world. He does not display himself; therefore he shines. He does not approve himself; therefore he is noted. He does not praise himself; therefore he has merit. He does not glory in himself; therefore he excels. And because he does not compete, therefore no one in the world can compete with him. The ancient saying 'Be humble and you will remain entire' -- Can this be regarded as mere empty words? Indeed he shall return home entire.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 10:03:32 (EDT) From: RichMandrake Email: None To: ggg Subject: I Agree. Brilliant Post Message:

Carl's Post very eloquently states the core of Maha/Rawat's Deceit. a Must Read.....Carl..if you are around, I would very much enjoy hearing more from you on this Forum...All The Best..Rich

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 03:56:13 (EDT) From: Bang the Magnificent Email: None To: All Subject: Life on the farm Message:

In my present incarnation as Bang the Magnificent, a Mighty Eagle of strength and wisdom untold, I was flying the thermals, at one with life, feeling good. As I glided towards earth, I spied a desolate little farm where all the animals were arguing and a bickering, throwing rocks and insults every which way. Coming to land in their midst they at once gathered around my formidable being and sat down silent and respectful and asked my counsel, for I sat upon the board of the wise and was know for my wisdom and forbearance. “The problem as I see it” I began “is that the pigs think that the only way to live is a pigs way and the cows then argue that the only truth is a cows truth, etc, etc, when in fact truth is relative, not absolute. Life is beautiful in the infiniteness of possibility, at which point all the animals went “ahhhhhhhhh”. The farmyard bitch then tool slight at the way one of the sheep was looking at her, and picking up a handful of horse pooh, let fly straight at the sheep. Now this sheep was no bunny and just before impact lithely swayed to one side. The odorous projectile sailed past and hit the baboon, (who had just climbed onto his soup box, puffed up and full of self importance), hit him right in the face, knocking him off the box, right onto his bum, forcing the banana even further up his ass, causing him to scream in delight. The scene degenerated into an all in brawl, at which point Bang the Magnificent remembered a prior engagement and flew up into the heavens, glorying in the magic of flight and hoping they would soon discover their wings. Bang the All Wise

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 08:37:53 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Bang the Magnificent Subject: Re: Life on the farm Message:

get lost

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:46:29 (EDT) From: George Orwell Email: None To: Bang the Magnificent Subject: All Rawat cult members are equal but.... Message:

some are more equal than others. Now, if you are the head pig that's really equal. Some might say you're chasing a pig in a poke; while, others might just say look out because THAT PIG's been a pokin'

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:23:45 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Bang the Magnificent Subject: into bestiality, are you? Message:

i do it to cats and white mice. its the fur, y'see.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:32:11 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Bang the Magnificent Subject: Re: Life on the farm - a load of crap Message:

Go play with your toy trains, Cacweasel.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:23:22 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Life on the farm - a load of crap Message:

This site had a great deal of insite into cult behavior and psycological repercusions (sp). If I can do that link thing. Might take me a few tries in which case, I do apologize in advance. [ Page Link ]

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:30:45 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: Life on the farm - a load of crap Message:

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/g2699/0004/2699000433/p1/article.jhtml I can't make the url link work. UGH........................... [ Page Link ]

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:34:06 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: btdt Subject: Sausages, frankfurters and links Message:

Copy and paste the link into the box marked ''Link URL.'' Type a name in the box marked ''Link Name.'' Voila. Like this: [ Interesting article ]

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:38:22 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Sausages, frankfurters and links Message:

Goody!!! Thank you. Now it makes sense. Where were you when I was taking chemistry in college for the fifth time and had to change my major because a section of my brain is missing? Oh, never mind, I got knowledge instead and thought I got a whole lot smarter....!!!!!

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 00:00:48 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: At the Back of the North Wind Message:

Here's the ELK report on what Maharaji said in Buenos Aries: During his speech on the first day, it touched me very much when he said that for the students who are listening to the master and doing what he says, he will help them succeed. And that this is for sure. At the second day, he told a very beautiful story about a conversation between a rock and the water flowing in a river.. The rock asked the water where it goes. And the water responds that it flows everywhere, into fields, mountains, valleys, until it reaches the ocean. Then it flies to the clouds, falls down as snow flakes, melts and only to come back again to the river. The rock was willing to do the same journey and asked how the water could take him with it. 'Only if you can change to a form where you can come and flow with me,' said the water. Maharaji encouraged us to change to a form where we can flow with the heart and with the breath, instead of staying where we are - fixed. We have the choice, he said And then, he talked about how comfortable he feels with a particular pair of shoes. He has been wearing them for so many years and does not want to change, because they feel so comfortable. When something feels comfortable, he explained, we do not want to change it. But regardless of this, we have to pass through all the changes that are necessary, like that rock, until we reach a place where we are comfortable living with the heart, and admiring the breath. Only then we will not feel the need to change any more. We need to o transform, until we get to a point where transformation is no longer needed - where we are flowing with the heart, with the breath, like that river... Romantic, isn't it? Reminds me of a children's fantasy. Sigh ... it's so beautiful. Makes me want to start my very own CAC-type site.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:19:02 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jim Subject: Life is great Message:

Now, Jim, please don't give me a hard time. I've been itching to make a post with that title. But I was just thinking that I couldn't just talk about the obviously beautiful things like rivers, waterfalls, clouds, flowers and the breath the way Rev Rawat does. My most recent ''Life is Very Hard'' experience happened when I was rushed to hospital two years and two months ago suffering from peritonitis. Unfortunately I am stoical when it comes to pain and I had already endured five days of septic shock. (Organs and glands etc begin to shut down or get damaged after two days of septic shock.) I really did not care if I lived or died by the time I got to the emergency room. I was told that I had a fifty percent chance of survival if I had surgery. In fact I was half dead already and then ''died'' on the operating table and had to be rescusitated (sp?.) For days afterwards I was on assisted breathing and eleven IVs per day until finally I pulled through and found out that I had a colostomy and had to shit out of a hole in my abdomen through which the colon dangled into a plastic bag. A week later Chuck and Andy brought me home. I've lived in SF for 21 years, longer than anywhere else in the world, and I know it so well that I barely look at the sites anymore. The drive home was like a trip through the Garden of Eden for me. It was like I felt when I first took acid or got darshan. I was looking at the world with Adam's eyes, like I had never seen it before. My euphoria lasted for months after that. I got used to the fact that I had to shit in a bag which often leaked, or irritated the skin or my colon would fart embarrassingly when I least expected it (no valve to control the emissions.) I saw how it was possible for people to live with the most dreadful disabilities like blindness or paralyisis and still enjoy life. After all a hole in the abdomen is not up there with cancer or AIDS. Sure I missed my asshole. It really is the most under-appreciated organ, very efficiently designed and perfectly placed. I was feeling so good and life was so great I created a funny colostomy bag website which helped many people and still does. (I wrote an ode to my colostomy bag which Chuck said was better than odors from a colostomy bag.) I felt so high that I decided I really needed to share my good fortune with others. I attributed my happiness to Knowledge so I decided to go back and do service and propagate Knowledge after not being involved with the cult for 17 years. One day I will write about that in detail. For now suffice it to say that I found that half of the premies in SF were miserable, some suicidal, a few depressed and all but two neurotic (and those were the mavericks.) I could not believe it. I tried to steer the focus of service into helping these people and making sure that they were mentally healthy (or at least employed and functioning) before bringing any new people to K. I knew that I could not introduce my friends to the premies with a straight face and say: ''These people, like me, have benefitted from K and M.'' It was obvious that they had not. Most never meditated or made any effort to be strong, healthy or even employed and got all their juice from watching videos. I also found that service consisted of ''synchronized participation'' in ''training seminars'' and ''fund raising.'' I kept thinking that I could change it. People listened to me but there always came the point where I would be told ''Maharaji would not approve of that.'' I said fuck it and walked. But it was not easy. It took me quite a few months to accept defeat. Yes, life is great if you are strong, optimistic, mentally healthy and...well, sane. And at least half of the premies in SF are not (sorry guys - you know what I'm talking about, you know - collecting welfare for mental disabilities, having horrendous financial problems, being insecure and lacking self-confidence, drifting from one pointless job to another, being alienated from friends and family, suffering from hypochondria and depression.) Okay the other half is fairly well-adjusted to society and quite contented but I don't know how they can live with themselves seeing the plight of the other half. It is disgustingly uncivilized. This lack of civility, sanity and democracy is what drove me out of the cult. Rev Rawat does not teach the importance of mental health probably because he is so arrogant he thinks he knows the answers. But his own behavior and his speeches show that the man is not sane or balanced or even sensible. Or maybe he is quite contented and knows that his scam will be over if he actually helps his devotees. Once they're sane they won't need him anymore. Who knows? Who cares? Is the crime of arrogant ignorance worse or better than selfish and cynical exploitation? Yep, life is great if you're sane and happy but half the premies are not. And they all seem either to post here or create websites while the sane half boasts of their financial, familial and professional success and how many guitars they bought this week. Give me a break, guys. Wake up and be honest enough to admit that whatever you have got is a result of your own efforts and choices. If Life's great it's probably because you are fairly sane and strong. If Life Sucks it's probably because you are expecting the master to help you. He won't. He is really only interested in helping himself and there's nothing wrong with that (we all do it) as long as he does not help himself at the expense of others. The most Monty Pythnesque aspect of this whole set up was that these miserable, indigent, dysfunctional premies were supposed to propagate K (happiness) to Californians who were having fun making lots of money, being dot.commies, surfing and partying in some of the world's finest restaurants, clubs and theaters. Rawat has nothing to offer anyone in the west. PS For those who haven't been around for a while: I had the colostomy reversed and I have got my own asshole back again after nearly two years of shitting in a plastic bag and life's great when you have a fully functioning asshole and a sane mind.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:17:27 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Life is great Message:

This post has absolutely made my day, Pat, and it's only just begun! You got your asshole back! This is great news. I didn't even know they could do that! Plus, you created that colostomy support site in your journey out of and into assholiness. Life really is great! I just read a book about my particular health condition which finally makes sense (after 20 years of partial explanations). It explains how you can reverse it by addressing 6 factors simultaneously, rather than sequentially. Sounds a bit like spinning plates, but the bottom -ah - line is that I now feel much more confident that I can reverse my problem too. Ah... I'm so grateful!

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:04:29 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Good Post, Pat... Message:

I appreciate your frank and honest style. Life is very good, even when physical and emotional afflictions get in our way. My way, I should say. I also appreciated your statement about missing your asshole. And Tonette's list of organs one can live without. Nurses are saints, aren't they? I've had a few surgeries in my life and the worst and most difficult was a hysterectomy when I was 32. Ovaries, cervix, everything was removed, including my appendix. I got a terrible post-operative infection (not unusual in hospitals) and was so sick and I remember those nights when one angel of a nurse would come into my room and stroke my forehead, and say ''there, there, it's all right, you'll be okay.'' Learning to live without my reproductive organs was difficult, but in the long run I have no side affects at all. Although I have recently learned I'm not exempt from menopause. Going through these kinds of experiences gave me more of an appreciation of my life, my husband, my sisters, and my mother. You mentioned living sane in this world. Taking responsibility for one's success and failures is a lesson learned hard. I'm reading Steven King's latest epic Dreamcatchers. You may scoff at Steven King, but I love mamy books because he has a way of combining rich writing with satire, as well as speaking in the voices of regular people. He hooks me, and I'm forced to read late into the night and laugh. (I'd never want to get into his head.) The discussion in this thread about the Maharajism mediation and how it can cause insanity reminded me of one word King used in the book that I read last night. The ''unsane.'' I liked that word. Never heard it before. I laughed because when I was a premie, I was unsane. I was a drone, looking for scraps of prassad from his unholy plate, seeking to please, and meditating a lot. Unsane. Yeah, that's a good word for premies. Reading about Fakiranand, I remember hearing stories about him as recent as 1997. Sitting around a premie's kitchen table (only us ole timers) and his name came up. The story about the pie incident was all mixed up with stories of his behavior when he visited the ashram. Everyone laughed. Unsane. It was excused. I went along and laughed, too. That was before. Now I am here. My rejection of Maharaji and his cult has made me sane. Sure, I have emotional difficulties, but I am sane. I look out my window and see a world full of beauty. I walk through the mountain forests and see that however all this stuff came to be, (and I've got no clue right now), doesn't matter, because it is there. I don't have to look to anyone to be filled with the happiness of seeing the wildness of nature. I don't have to have explanations from Maharaji about it. I can reject out of hand, all the brainwashing he put me through and be sane, be alert, be finely tuned into the true meaning of enjoying life. Love with a partner of 20 years. In love with my animals which unconditionally give me comfort in hard times. Most of all love for myself without giving anything, not devotion, stupid superstitions about who that guru is, and especially my time. Oh yeah, not giving money is nice, too. So you be well, Love to you, Charles and Andy....(the forleggeds, too) Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 09:35:32 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Good Post!!! Message:

I'm glad you don't have to carry the bag anymore. A friend of mine did (she passed away, she was a lost, sick in all senses premie) and boy, how inconvinient that was for her. Thanks for your post, beside the shit and farts that is. :) Be well.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:53:56 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Life is great Message:

Well said!!!

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:45:46 (EDT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: I hope your surgery went well. OT Message:

Hey Pat, I'm glad everything worked out. I would of taken good care of your if you had been my patient, had come to my OR. Congradulations! Be well, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:49:24 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: Tonette Subject: I knew it. You're a lover Message:

I smelled your humanity long ago. I'm fine thanks. Missing a sigmoid colon but fit as a fiddle. thank you for asking. I'll understand if you don't elaborate but I would love to know if you are an OR nurse.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:02:27 (EDT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Sigmoid colon, you can live without it! Message:

Yes, an OR nurse. Actually a charge nurse. I run the place. List of things people can live without and never really miss: A kidney 95% of their liver Appendix Tonsils Adenoids Gall Bladder 65% of their Stomach Wisdom Teeth Uvula Turbinates Fibula List of things that one is better off without: Maharaji! I know that was a cheap shot! Tonette

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:31:05 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Tonette Subject: How did Tonette's message appear here? Message:

No one will believe this except Janet. I was going to post a message to SC aka cerise aka Marolyn Kintire aka David Ro...(oops sorry David I nearly let the cat out of the bag) and suddenly Tonette's response to me in a thread above about sigmoid colons appeared here and so did my answer to her. It must be the Taelon UFOs doing mind-control experiments again or else it is 2.30 am and I should be asleep. Yep, night night.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:18:16 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Tonette Subject: What on earth are turbinates? Message:

I worked in hospitals for 30 years (pharmacy) but I'm stumped. Most of my best friends are nurses. The most practical people I know and with a sensible approach to love and care not some pie in the sky blissy pissy BS (Belief System.)

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:43:59 (EDT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Located in the nose Message:

You have three on each side, called appropriately the superior, middle and inferior turbinates. They help heat and humidify the air you breathe before it enters the lungs. I think they also have cilia on them which helps to cleanse the air. They are located way up your nose, in each nostril, near the ethmoid sinus. And no, for you nectar lovers, you can't lick them with your tongue while doing the nectar technique. You say very kind things Pat. I like you. BTY, are you worried about all the crap and personal information posted on CAC about you? Just curious. Tonette

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 20:27:53 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: All Subject: CW Message:

It's just the thin edge of the wedge in my opinion. There's a few here who take themselves a wee bit too serious. That stuff ole Pat is cookin? How thick is he? Think about it this way. There is an international group that is very well resourced , clued up and never set foot into these places. You and your buddies throw acres of shit around for over three years. Two pissant nobody public defenders put up this charade of legal expertise. And then when it's all said and done , it's all the work of one lone nutter, me , the weasel. Ohh I dont think so. I REALLY find it flattering but no I really dont think so.................. =============================================== I think you understood me wrong. Am not saying that you did it, am only trying to satisfy my non-cat curiosity.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 20:21:16 (EDT) From: Loco Email: None To: All Subject: couldn't have said it better Message:

From Charles glasser web site: This month, someone named Boris created a website doing the exact same thing, and then some, targeting people who he felt is trying to hurt Maharaji. This new site site mixed some apparent ugly truths with what is claimed to be exaggeration or outright fiction, and also reveals private information about these people. This was wrong.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 22:23:07 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Loco Subject: Really? Message:

'Exact same thing'? What would you premies say about some of the Scientolgy sites designed to silence that cult's critics? First, do you agree that Scientolgy's a cult? And, assuming you do, you'd agree that Hubbard was a cult leader, no? In that case, what do you think about people exposing Hubbard, may he rest in peace, warts and all? Are they asking for like treatment? There's a big storm brewing over Sai Baba's chia doll head. I bet if we looked around we could find, not just the critics sites, but also sites designed to harrass and silence them as well. David Lane, for instance, the University of California prof who has a web site that has recently set its focussed glare on Sai Baba's deceits has been the subject of the same kind of harrassment and character assassination campaign that the premies are starting to hit us with. But honestly, do you really think that Lane's character is an issue when one's discussing Sai Baba's? These 'God Men' stole the limelight. Look at me, they screamed. I'm divine, I'm the one. Trust me. Give me your all, your everything. None were worse than Maharaji who actually pretended he was the greatest incarnation of God to ever manifest in human form. His character is in issue and no, that doesn't drag ours in too. Seriously, loco, anyone but a member of your cult could see that in a flash. Even members of other cults. Just like you can see it about Sai Baba, they could see it about you. It's that obvious.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 23:29:40 (EDT) From: Loco Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ahh uhm Jim Message:

Sorry, I think I confused you a bit. Am not a cult member. I was only posting this for those that haven't read it, not in support of Mr Glasser, but for criticism. Loco

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 23:52:12 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Loco Subject: Okie dokie Message:

My mistake. Sorry. But, listen, if you ever do become a cult member, please let me know. But for now we'll seat you in the blue section. No smart cards. :)

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 02:24:19 (EDT) From: Loco Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Okie dokie Message:

Be Nice. It appears that www.stopcyberstalk.org have deleated all entries from the InterNic database. A Whois search can't locate them.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:07:34 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Loco Subject: Re: Okie dokie Message:

People keep spelling this wrong:-) John. [ CAC Still there ]

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:37:41 (EDT) From: Loco Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Okie dokie Message:

Host Information Host Connectivity Resolve/Reverse Lookup Get DNS Records Whois (Web) Whois (IP owner) Check port: Ping host Traceroute (visual) Do it all Resolve www.stopcyberstalk.org www.stopcyberstalk.org DNS Query Results for www.stopcyberstalk.org: ; <<>> DiG 8.3 <<>> q-class any q-type any www.stopcyberstalk.org ;; res options: init recurs defnam dnsrch ;; got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 4 ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 13, ADDITIONAL: 11 ;; QUERY SECTION: ;; www.stopcyberstalk.org, type = ANY, class = ANY ;; ANSWER SECTION: org. 3H IN SOA A.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. hostmaster.nsiregistry.NET. ( 2001083101 ; serial 30M ; refresh 15M ; retry 1W ; expiry 1D ) ; minimum ;; AUTHORITY SECTION: org. 9h45m12s IN NS A.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS G.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS H.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS C.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS I.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS B.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS D.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS L.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS F.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS J.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS K.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS E.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. org. 9h45m12s IN NS M.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: A.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. 9h45m12s IN A 192.5.6.30 G.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. 9h45m12s IN A 192.42.93.30 H.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. 9h45m12s IN A 192.54.112.30 C.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. 9h45m12s IN A 192.26.92.30 I.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. 9h45m12s IN A 192.36.144.133 B.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. 9h45m12s IN A 192.33.14.30 D.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. 9h45m12s IN A 192.31.80.30 L.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. 9h45m12s IN A 192.41.162.30 F.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. 9h45m12s IN A 192.35.51.30 J.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. 9h45m12s IN A 210.132.100.101 K.GTLD-SERVERS.NET. 9h45m12s IN A 213.177.194.5 ;; Total query time: 1 msec ;; FROM: ns1 to SERVER: default -- 127.0.0.1 ;; WHEN: Sat Sep 1 13:34:28 2001 ;; MSG SIZE sent: 40 rcvd: 499 WWWhois Results for www.stopcyberstalk.org: NOT FOUND: No match for www.stopcyberstalk.org Whois Server Version 1.3 Domain names in the .com, .net, and .org domains can now be registered with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net for detailed information. No match for 'WWW.STOPCYBERSTALK.ORG'. >>> Last update of whois database: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 02:18:09 EDT <<< The Registry database contains ONLY .COM, .NET, .ORG, .EDU domains and Registrars. IP Whois Results for www.stopcyberstalk.org: Connecting to whois.arin.net... No match for 'WWW.STOPCYBERSTALK.ORG'. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% NO MATCH TIP %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% % % % ALL OF THE POINT OF CONTACT HANDLES IN THE ARIN % % WHOIS END WITH '-ARIN', IF YOU ARE QUERYING A POINT % % OF CONTACT HANDLE PLEASE ADD -ARIN TO YOUR QUERY. % % % %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% The ARIN Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Network Information: Networks, ASN's, and related POC's. Please use the whois server at rs.internic.net for DOMAIN related Information and whois.nic.mil for NIPRNET Information. Checking Port 80 of www.stopcyberstalk.org: Port 80 does not appear to be open. Ping Results for www.stopcyberstalk.org: Ping failed. Host may not be active. Traceroute Results for www.stopcyberstalk.org: Traceroute failed. Host may not be active.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:41:36 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Loco Subject: Learn to spell! Message:

Look, I told you already you spelt it wrong:- It's www.stopcyberstalkers.org NOT www.stopcyberstalk.org Now try again. John.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 06:10:52 (EDT) From: Yes, but Email: None To: JHB Subject: the WhoIS search really doesn't... Message:

... show anything for 'www.stopcyberstalkers.org'. How is that possible?

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:47:36 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Yes, but Subject: Use a decent search program Message:

I did this search just now using WS_Ping ProPack:- Official name: www.stopcyberstalkers.org IP address: 195.2.70.38 % This is the RIPE Whois server. % The objects are in RPSL format. % Please visit http://www.ripe.net/rpsl for more information. % Rights restricted by copyright. % See http://www.ripe.net/ripencc/pub-services/db/copyright.html inetnum: 195.2.70.32 - 195.2.70.63 netname: ZENON descr: ZENON N.S.P. country: RU admin-c: ZNO1-RIPE tech-c: ZNO1-RIPE status: ASSIGNED PA notify: registry@zenon.net mnt-by: ZENON-NOC changed: sfy@zenon.net 20010109 source: RIPE route: 195.2.64.0/19 descr: ZENON N.S.P. descr: 1-ja Jamskogo polia 19, 706 descr: Moscow, Russia origin: AS6903 notify: noc@zenon.net mnt-by: AS6903-MNT changed: scream@zenon.net 19980511 source: RIPE role: ZENON N.S.P. Network Operations address: ZENON/Internet Network Operations address: ZENON N.S.P. address: 1-ja Jamskogo polia 19 address: Moscow, Russia address: 125124 phone: +7 095 251 1071 phone: +7 095 232 3736 fax-no: +7 095 251 5702 e-mail: noc@zenon.net trouble: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- trouble: ZENON N.S.P. NOC is available 24 x 7 trouble: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- trouble: Points of contact for ZENON N.S.P. Network Operations trouble: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- trouble: Routing and peering issues: noc@zenon.net trouble: SPAM issues: abuse@zenon.net trouble: Network security issues: security@zenon.net trouble: Mail and News issues: postmaster@zenon.net trouble: Customer support: support@zenon.net trouble: General information: info@zenon.net trouble: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- admin-c: BT21-RIPE admin-c: VB3371-RIPE tech-c: VLB1-RIPE tech-c: KIP3-RIPE tech-c: SVM2-RIPE tech-c: AVK99-RIPE nic-hdl: ZNO1-RIPE mnt-by: AS6903-MNT changed: ser@zenon.net 20010625 source: RIPE **complete**

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:44:04 (EDT) From: A S Fisher Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Charles Glasser's website Message:

My client has informed me that Mr Glasser's website has been changed recently. I would very much appreciate any information about the original site. Did anyone save the original version? If so could you please post the details. Apparently he deleted references to insanity, drug-taking and other accusations of a libelous nature. Recent developments not related to the website have arisen and it is important that my client find these original quotes. Please post your information here as I realize that you may not wish to email a stranger. Thank you, A S Fisher

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:41:10 (EDT) From: Nice going Mr Fisher Email: None To: A S Fisher Subject: please tell who come u acting Message:

on behalf of CG. What's the reward?

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:40:47 (EDT) From: Tonette Email: None To: JHB Subject: It's significant in what it doesn't say. Message:

Okay it's going to merge. Like when exactly? And with whom exactly? And since the merging is imminent, where is the link? Naw, the site creators have realized their mistake in putting all the personal information of a few chosen ex's and have esentially, IMO, closed the site. Probably scared witless of being sued as they well should be. I was on vacation. How long was the site up anyway?

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:42:49 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Re: It's significant in what it doesn't say. Message:

mate u ask too many questions. Instead u should buy some shares in this merger, u have first class info.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:13:52 (EDT) From: pierre Email: None To: All Subject: amazing (without the grace) Message:

Greetings all, God, this whole scene is amazing to me. I dropped out ages ago and never really gave it another thought. Actually that't not true. It was a hard decision to make and I have wondered since over the years whether or not I should have wandered back into the maya. But it has never bothered me that much. It was more like growing older and leaving behind the things that were important as a child. I seem to remember some film 'Elmer Gantry' that quoted something about leaving behind those 'childish things' - I think it was from Corinthians Anyhow it always reasurred me that being a premie was just a phase and that I was grateful for what I learnt but now I needed to be independent and move onward and upward. Not that I've really moved anywhere except into the doldrums. Maybe I'm experiencing instant Karma. All that Karma & spiritual stuff means nothing to me now - all I care about is my family and trying to make a buck without selling my soul. Anyhow - great to find the ex-premie and the life's great site. Although my time on the internet is limited to how much I can afford the phone bill, I think I will enjoy reading all the info that you guys have got together. toodleoo pierre

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:40:00 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: pierre Subject: Re: amazing (without the grace) Message:

Pierre, Welcome! And well done for getting out on your own. I needed the EPO site to kick start my rational thought processes. I hope you can share a little more of your time in the cult. John Brauns

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:30:30 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: JHB Subject: Hi Pierre, nice to meet you Message:

I would really be interested to hear more of your story. Best wishes.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:09:44 (EDT) From: pierre Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Hi JHB & Pat Message:

Thanks for the welcome. I will certainly stick around - although I haven't much of a story to tell. Just one of the run-of-the-mill premies who never had the courage to completely surrender and join the ashram ( even though not married !) From what I read of some of you who did - I'm glad I never did, although often felt guilty for not doing so. I never realised so many people were hurt so much by all this, although I suppose it is obvious that falling into premiedom and clawing your way out must leave a few psychological scars. Good job on all of you for easing the transition for new escapees all the best pierre

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:34:37 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Question for premies Message:

Various premies, here, on LG and in private communications with ex's, have voiced their opinion about CAC over the last few weeks. Some, like Catweasel below (can't you get rid of these guys, Ger?) can't help gloating about it. They might not be involved but they fully support it. They think its great, simply fantastic that anyone who dares to question or criticize their cult leader doesn't 'get away with it.' Others, at least in public, spout the EV party line: This harrassment of ex's is wrong and ugly and should be stopped and all that but, let's face it, our attacks on Maharaji's private life are just as wrong, so what'd we expect? Finally, there are some premies -- at least I THINK there are -- who think that CAC is just so wrong, emblematic of everything wrong about cults. Some premies appear to have already left the cult because of CAC although I'm sure the hardcore fanatatics think that's okay too. After all, if others leave and they stay, that just proves shows who the true devotees are, right? So my question, then, is one that is currently merely hypothetical. For all I know, it might only stay that way. A mere thought experiment at this stage .... or is it? Here's the question: What will you think or do if it turns out that Maharaji himself is involved in CAC? Or, what I'm really trying to ask: is there any limit to which Maharaji could go to stifle dissent and criticism which you won't accept? For approximately five years now, ex-premies have challenged, confronted, questioned their former cult leader online. Maharaji has responded in a number of ways, none honourable. First, he tried to get all premies to avoid the internet and particularly the ex-premie sites. When that didn' work, he tried to out internet us, with his own bullshit sites, for example, his personal site where he claims that he's neither a leader nor a figurehead and can't understand why anyone would ever see him as such, or ELK where,a swe learned, the 'editors' were prone to changing peoples' expressions to fit the current party line. When the ex's pressed further, Maharaji finally bit the bullet and, through EV's website, issued his first formal response to us. He lied abotu and twisted his entire past. I'll never forget how our jaws dropped when we read those FAQ answers for the first time. Who could believe he could sink so low? Then there were Maharaji's initial attempts at intimidation, when he tried to shut down our websites with his lawyers. That backfired completely, though and was, in hindsight, yet another public relations disaster for him. For us it was great, as if Maharaji was just serving us on a silver platter further proof that he's really nothing but a cult leader. Now we've got this latest broadside, an attempt to seriously intimidate us personally, to threaten our livelihoods individually, to smear us with as much dirt, real or imaginary, as they can -- as HE can? One of the things we've often said is wrong with being in a cult is that one necessarily gives up one's own personal moral compass. The question now is whether, if it turns out Maharaji himself was behind this cowardly and evil attack, you premies will be able to find yours again in time. Frankly, I don't hold out much hope for some of you. Although it was a classic cult response, I still found it rather chilling to see some premies on LG, before CD banned me for not being positive enough, gloating about CAC. What was so frightening was their attitude that so long as they could steer their mind into the next breath, they could just keep feeling how Lifes Great [sic] and avoid even dealing with the moral bankruptcy of CAC. Essentially, they were trying to get 'blissed out' at our expense. Scary as it is, one can't help but imagine that the uglier the thing they can't afford to think about, the greater the incentive to try to avoid just that by meditating, the more exciting this is for some of these guys. Anyway, like I say, right now it's only hypothetical. But, trust me, we're going to find out. And when we do, if it turns out that Maharaji had a hand in this, I'm asking you guys, is there any limit? Is there anything Maharaji could do that would cause you to part ways with him? Years ago, when Fakiranand tried to kill Pat Halley for throwing a cream pie at Maharaji, most of us who were around then weren't in Detroit. We only heard about what happened in the days and weeks that followed. Maharaji was careful to not publically condone Fakiranand's act and, as we all heard, he even banished mahatma ji forever. Still, though, we all got a chance to sound out our own consciences. What if I'd been there? What would I have done? And, at least among the premies I knew, the average reaction was that Halley pretty well had it coming. You don't throw pies at the Lord of the Universe and expect to walk away karma-free. Ineed, I remember people -- including me -- speculating about how Maharaji had done Halley a favour by imposing that fierce, but immediate punishment, so Halley wouldn't necessarily have worse, more cosmic, dificulties later in his soul's travels. But the point is, sadly, I don't remember a single premie ever saying that if he ever learned that Maharaji was somehow behind, or even condoned, that attack, they'd leave. No one thought like that. Thinking itself was forbidden then, much less attempting to individuate one's morality from Maharaji's. He was our Lord, our creator. How could we even think of such blasphemy? But now Maharaji says that he's just a human being, no different than you or me. He just happens to have this 'gift', that's all. Well, even human beings with 'gifts' can make bad decisions. Human beings with 'gifts' can be terribly wrong. Will you premies be able to see it if that's the case here?

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 03:54:02 (EDT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Question for premies Message:

Answer to question number one: What will I think? That's as far as I can go with that question. I'm a PREMIE for petes sake! I try to avoid thinking at all costs! Don't you realize that thinking is associated with Mr. Mind. Besides there's no time for thinking, I'm too busy trying to remeber to BREATHE! Answer to question number two: Well this is an easy, easy question. Of course there's no limit to Maharaji, the MASTER! Uh, was that the question? No wait, maybe this is an answer. Sorry got confused. Was in 'that' feeling you know. That place, the experience. Kinda causes the neurons to missfire a little, sometimes, a little, but gee, isn't life great! Having a master, with no limits, that knowledge with no limitations. The one true thing, the only thing that a human being can always depend on for that breath, that heart inside like a little child always breathing, feeling our essence of what being alive reaallllyyyyyyyy means. The source of what we really are, the knowledge. What makes us human beings. Oh the beauty of it all. Hey, what was the question again?

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:09:35 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Bliss versus sanity Message:

A guy called Pierre posted this on Lifes (sic) Great: Hi, I just got into all this jiggerpokery and have been surfing the cyber-mystic world. Used to practice k but lapsed about 10 years ago although still wonder sometimes if i made the right decision and have not found anything to replace it - I still focus on the breathing and look for the light before I go to sleep etc. But I did come across this and it made me think what is the value of 'turning off' anyhow - especially if you are not depressed or mentally ill? 'Meditation The second thought stopping technique is meditation. If you spend an hour to an hour and a half a day in meditation, after a few weeks, there is a great probability that you will not return to full beta consciousness. You will remain in a fixed state of alpha for as long as you continue to meditate. I'm not saying this is bad--if you do it yourself. It may be very beneficial. But it is a fact that you are causing your mind to go flat. I've worked with meditators on an EEG machine and the results are conclusive: the more you meditate, the flatter your mind becomes until, eventually and especially if used to excess or in combination with decognition, all thought ceases. Some spiritual groups see this as nirvana--which is bullshit. It is simply a predictable physiological result. And if heaven on earth is non-thinking and non-involvement, I really question why we are here. ' Whaddya think? pierre Sorry - forgot to credit the site where i read the quote http://www.ctyme.com/bwash/bwash.htm#ff love pierre

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:11:37 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Bliss versus sanity Message:

And I thought it was the mercury in my filling that was causing the short term memory loss!

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:19:57 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: btdt Subject: Maharajism not mercury Message:

causes premature alzheimers.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:34:20 (EDT) From: Nick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Not strictly true, Jim Message:

Jim What you said about Fakiranand is not strictly correct. After the custard pie incident, Fakiranand was not so much 'banished forever' but sent to Switzerland to continue to propagate. This was at the time leading up to the Millenium Festival and for several months I drove him around Switzerland. As Millenium approached, I asked him why he was not going and did not get a very clear answer. It was only later that I learned that he was, at the very least, persona non grata in the States. In retrospect, I am horrified that M could consider sending him to do his work in light of the vicious attack he perpetrated. No-one mentioned to me at the time what he had done, and I treated him as one of the so-called 'realised souls' and, as such, trusted him implicitly. For those of you who did not meet Fakiranand, he was a mahatma who had almost psychopathic tendencies. He would literally hit people who showed 'disrespect' to Maharaji - e.g. put a photo of M on the floor, have their feet facing towards a picture of M. He demanded the construction of altars featuring the entire 'Holy Family' and spanning the width of a wall, and introduced very elaborate physical demonstrations of devotion. On one of the first occasions I was with him, someone was translating his satsang from English to French. Fakiranand was very strong about the incompatibility of engaging in sexual relations and the receiving of Knowledge - abstinence was the only path. An aspirant asked him, if that was the case, how come that M came to be born. The translator did not translate the question and just dismissed the remark to Fakiranand as something trivial. After the satsang, I asked the translator why he had not reported the question faithfully. He replied something to the effect that Fakiranand had previously attacked an aspirant who had asked a similar question and told him never to return to the ashram. Although the incidents with Fakiranand took place back in 1973, the fact remains that Maharaji refused then to take responsibility for the actions of his chosen emissaries. My personal experiences with Fakiranand were good - but given M's awareness of Fakiranand's tendencies, it is simply shocking to witness his (i.e. M's) total disregard for potential consequences of his orders. But nothing really seems to have changed these days in this regard. From my recollection, it was only a few days before Millenium that Fakiranand returned to India. I never heard of him again after that.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:43:37 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nick Subject: This, Nick, is a most important post! Message:

God Nick! You are so damned right. That's it exactly. Just like sexually exploitative mahatmas that Maharaji kept on tour, thus compromising premies' safety, Fakiranand was another powder keg he stored in the nursery closet. Hey, have you been here before? I seem to recall a Nick at some time. Who are you? (Or is that info no one wants to share anymore given the CAC harassment, etc.?) Great post in any event.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:47:56 (EDT) From: Thanks Nick Email: None To: Nick Subject: Re: Not strictly true, Jim Message:

I was living in one ashram when Fakiranad was coming to town. Knowing of his psychotic tendencies, we worked for what seemed like weeks to 'Fakiranize' the house. We thought everything was perfect by the time he arrived, but when he did, he scrutinized the ashram and went ballistic when he found a picture of Maha hanging on the wall in one of the rooms WITHOUT a cloth behind it. Yes, Fakiranand considered it a mortal sin if a picture of Maha touched the wall. If a picture sat on a table, it had to have a cloth under it. And the altars, oy vey. The guy was clearly insane, but I think Maha was afraid of him. Also, according to Donner, Maha was reluctant to go after Mahatmas who did bad stuff because he was afraid they would defect to the Mata Ji camp, although that was probably after the Fakiranand period.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:12:41 (EDT) From: Ben Lurking Email: BenKurken@aol.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Question for premies Message:

Jim, The us versues them distills to a very simple answer - M stands to gain or lose finacially, as far as I know none of the exes gain anything other than satisfaction when an ex leaves. Its like a 'for profit non profit' fighting to keep market share. If its free and unencumbered why fight for market share? If it isn't a church why fight for 'participants(?)' Why would anyone worry about not being able to give away a free gift? (If it is free) All the rest of the issues are just M and EV fighting to maintain their market, like we have something to sell to their customer base - what we give away is quit wasting your life, time and money. No M and a few PWK that are X rated have gained financially, it is that gain they are fighting for. Its not like we get the donations when a premie leaves the fold, the premie keeps them. It is not like after 5 years you have qualified for a free house from the ex pledges. What does an ex have to gain? What does M and the inner circle have to lose - money and power. See the problem is M is out on the branch and we are cutting it from the trunk. My 2 cents before I go back to lurkerville

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:47:17 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: Always a pleasure, Jer Message:

Jerry, We've been meaning to contact you about your lapsed ex pledges but thought we'd contact your employer and mother first. No, really, you so often have a fresh angle on things, this time no exception. What you say is probably all true. Maharaji's doing the numbers here, he's not worrying about lost souls.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:59:13 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Slight embarrassment time Message:

What I said about Jer, Ben, applies to you too. There are a number of people here I feel that way about. Sheesh!

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 18:36:09 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Question for premies Message:

You misjudge me James. (Not unusual) . I suggest you think before you post. My point below was the absurdity of loading me up with the responsibility for CAC. What I was saying is simple . But for a moron like you I'm prepared to expand a little. You , over the last 3 years have solidly abused , insulted and harrassed a huge number of people on these X sites. It should come as no surprise to you that when you decide to harrass over 100,000 people (minimum) there will be SOMEONE seriously cashed up,savvy and pissed off enough to serve it right back at you. You claim to be intelligent , witty ,urbane and clever. In my humble opinion you have never varied from being dog stupid. Now if you dont mind I'm going to jump back up on the fence. Keep on barking boofhead!

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:48:43 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: CW Subject: I'm not interested in what you say, Cat Message:

Cat, You keep fighting to salvage some creidibilty here but, frankly, Cat, that's impossible.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:18:34 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: I'm not interested in what you say, Cat Message:

Oh yeah??

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:13:15 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: CW Subject: Sherlock! NT Message:

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 16:57:13 (EDT) From: Passibg Through Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Question for premies Message:

Q: What will you think or do if it turns out that Maharaji himself is involved in CAC? A: Nothing. You seem to be under the impression that Maharaji should conform to a set of fictitious principles or morals determined by you. He shouldn't drink, smoke, fuck, spend, get angry or sad, make mistakes etc. In fact, he should behave like the public image of the Dalai Lama except wear normal clothes. Even the sanitized version of our Lord Jesus Christ, surely the most moral, honest, admirable person in history, has him blasting into the holiest temple of the time and smashing up the furniture. And I particularly like the bit of him having his feet dried by a devotee with her hair. Grow up. No one can live up to your fantasies. We all expected Forum posters to be celibate, god fearing, humanitarians constantly engaged in charity work and morality studies. Naturally we we're pissed off when we found out that the people behind the names were humans with all the foibles. Can we be blamed if we strike out at you? Or should we just walk away and get on with our lives? Q: what I'm really trying to ask: is there any limit to which Maharaji could go to stifle dissent and criticism which you won't accept? A: Yes. But CAC's nowhere near it. CAC, like the Forum and EPO, is people using their free expression to say what they like. You do it, why shouldn't others, why shouldn't Maharaji. I think it's pathetic that after years defending your harasment as a search for truth and healing, you start crying when CAC conducts its own search. PT

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:50:23 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Passibg Through Subject: Good post, PT (?? LOL !!) Message:

Listen, PT, you're in a cult and thus can't think this through clearly. No one outside your cult would ever agree with you. No one.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 18:56:00 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Passibg Through Subject: Re: Question for premies Message:

Q: what I'm really trying to ask: is there any limit to which Maharaji could go to stifle dissent and criticism which you won't accept? A: Yes. But CAC's nowhere near it. Could you qualify that PT? What would be the limit, the minimal, if you please?

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 18:02:12 (EDT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Passibg Through Subject: What fictitious principles ? Message:

You are really on the edge with that statement. Whether rawat fucks himself into a coma is not my concern : telling his followers that all that sort of thing is a big no-no whilst doing it himself IS. Regardless of your views on morality, are you so far gone that you find rank hypocrisy an acceptable character trait in the Perfect Master? When you say that CAC is nowhere near the limit to which rawat could go to stifle dissent which you would disaprove of, then I know exactly who you are. I don't know your name or where you live , but I've got your number. You've got the same mindset as the guy who popped the xyclon-B into the shower rooms at Dachau. Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 16:30:10 (EDT) From: Menache Bernstain Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Question for premies Message:

Or, what I'm really trying to ask: is there any limit to which Maharaji could go to stifle dissent and criticism which you won't accept? First of all, you are wildly speculating that Maharaji is involved. Your speculation (an the others here) is probably due to the paranoia and obsession that you have so well developed over the years and your thousands of postings. Second of all the CAC website simply gave you a test of your own medicine. You use slander, obscenity and hearsay to disrupt the lives of Maharaji, his family and people that follow his teachings. Well... now you know how it hurts. And please don't give me that shit about public and non-public figure. You are vociferous and public as any other. Jim: You guys are so deep into your own beliefs that there is nothing impossible for your obsession and fear to fabricate. The mistake that the CAC site made, was that basically it gave you and your friends in this forum too much credit and simply added more to your paranoia and stupidity. How can you guys be soo stupid to believe in your own CACA? You are obsessed, paranoid and infantile in your obscenity, hearsay and righteousness. Piss off, Menache Bernstain

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 21:55:28 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Menache Bernstain Subject: Re: Question for premies Message:

First of all, you are wildly speculating that Maharaji is involved. Your speculation (an the others here) is probably due to the paranoia and obsession that you have so well developed over the years and your thousands of postings. No, my speculation is based on the facts and certain things I've heard that may be facts. I'm not going to share all that with you but, well, stay tuned, huh? Anyway, it is speculation. I said that. Deal with it or not. It's a hypothetical question. By the way, do you know that Maharaji was not involved somehow? Do you know for a fact that Maharaji didn't give a general 'sic 'em' command to his little lap dogs? Second of all the CAC website simply gave you a test of your own medicine. You use slander, obscenity and hearsay to disrupt the lives of Maharaji, his family and people that follow his teachings. Well... now you know how it hurts. And please don't give me that shit about public and non-public figure. You are vociferous and public as any other. No, you're wrong. I'm not a public figure, Maharaji is. And, like I said to PT above, no one outside your cult would ever agree with you. Jim: You guys are so deep into your own beliefs that there is nothing impossible for your obsession and fear to fabricate. The mistake that the CAC site made, was that basically it gave you and your friends in this forum too much credit and simply added more to your paranoia and stupidity. How can you guys be soo stupid to believe in your own CACA? You are obsessed, paranoid and infantile in your obscenity, hearsay and righteousness. Piss off, Menache Bernstain You don't make any sense. Hopefully, you fucntion better in your other activities. Defending your cult leader isn't your forte.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:12:16 (EDT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Menache Bernstain Subject: The ghost of Richard Nixon Message:

This exchange really is something else. As is this CAC attack. Reminds me of the Scientologists, who go ballistic on anyone who publishes the truth about Scientology. Another example: The last two days Salon magazine (online) ran a detailed account of a woman who wrote an article about what really happened in the family that runs the Ringling Brothers organization. An ex-CIA guy hired by the family harassed her for eight years! This is the same kind of thing. A group of ex-cult members reveal the truth about the cult and its leader on a website, and cult members retaliate by trying to dig up dirt on the 'reporters' (in this case, unpaid ex-premies.) And, unbelievably, current cult members cannot see anything wrong with this dirty trick campaign. Scratch the word 'unbelievably.' I'm now remembering when I was in the cult and had somehow convinced myself it wasn't a cult, even though it talked like a cult, walked like a cult, and smelled like a cult. The ghost of Richard Nixon is smiling benevolently on whoever is behind this CAC thing.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:15:43 (EDT) From: Tife Email: None To: All Subject: The ultimate Art Message:

IN THIS ISSUE • The ultimate art             Maharaji in Kaohsiung, Taiwan, 2nd May 2001 (edited and abridged) I am very glad to be here in Taiwan to talk to you about life. And I will try to express what I have to say by referring to something that happens, but we don't pay much attention to. Last October and November - at least in the northern hemisphere - things began to change, and slowly, the winter started to come. Many trees shed their leaves, many plants became dormant, and as the season approached, summer faded away. In between was the fall, and there was a struggle going on. One cold day would be followed by one warm day, but there was no mistaking what was to happen, there was no mistaking the inevitable that eventually, winter would come. And it came. In places that are cold, the snow came - things changed very dramatically and stayed that way. And then around March this year, once again this drama began to stir, began to unfold, with some cold days and some warm days - then more warm days, fewer cold days. And now it's warm, the leaves are back on the trees, most of the snow is melted, and everything is settling down for a season of summer. It's hard to think about winter. A tree certainly has something wonderful to offer, to show for its existence. What do we? In this time, so much has happened that maybe we didn't even pay attention to. So many things are no more. Some little plants survived, some didn't. There was no judgment about it - that's not the point. Everything evolved. Trees are a little bigger than they were last year. Little trees that managed to survive the harsh winter managed to grow. And they have something to show for it. Having lived that day, having lived that season, they have grown taller. Their branches have grown a little thicker. Their leaves this year will be a little larger. Their little fruits will be a little bit bigger. The trees that give fruit are preparing to give fruit once again. The mango trees are readying themselves for their flowers to come. And those little buds will become incredibly beautiful sweet mangoes once again. And, do you know, it's not really any different than that for us? We too have our seasons. I'm not talking about feeling cold because we have taken care of that. We have jackets, we have heaters. I'm not talking about feeling hot because we have thin shirts, air conditioning, fans, and windows. But our seasons still come and we endure them, we go on, with one more day of life, one more day of existence. The question is: what do we have to show for it? When I was little, growing up in India, we used to have a lot of mango and litchi trees. Even a little mango tree would try to give fruit, but it was not good. It never quite turned sweet. The fruits were too small. And next year, it would have grown and it would try again. And finally, one year, it would give fruit, and we would all be excited because from that tree the fruit was ready to eat. And that tree certainly has something wonderful to offer, to show for its existence. What do we? The most auspicious Indian culture is not too different from the Chinese culture that you have here. It really isn't. Everything has to be an auspicious day, things should be better. Everybody hopes that their life will be more harmonious. We desire success; we hope blessings will come: 'Oh, I hope that you are successful in your endeavor, in your business.' 'Oh, I hope that you are good in your school.' But what about this breath? Don't you understand that the most auspicious thing that is happening in your life is this breath? This is the most auspicious thing because if this breath stopped, nothing would be auspicious. This is the greatest fortune because without this breath, there would be no fortune. There would be no tomorrow. What is wisdom? What makes a wise person? It is somebody who can look beyond today, who can look beyond what is happening right now and say, 'Well, there is more.' Somebody who understands that what you see is not how it is - there is more to it. Somebody who knows that there is no excitement in looking at a color, because it will fade. It is its nature. What is wisdom? You do not build your house at the edge of the ocean when the tide is low. That's wisdom. Don't you understand that the most auspicious thing that is happening in your life is this breath? Someone might ask, 'Why can't I build my house here? The ocean is over there.' But somebody who is wise will say, 'No. This is the nature of the ocean. It goes through low tides and it goes through high tides, and when the high tide comes, the house will be gone. If I want to build my house, I need to build it in a place where it will be safe.' People can come together and discuss how hot the fire is, but only a person who is willing to touch it can find out how hot it really is. People can come together and try to figure out what the smell of a rose is like, but only that person who has actually smelled it really knows. Such subjects are beyond discussion. Why do you ask? Why do you want to be liberated? People ask me questions but I only have one question for them: 'Why do you ask this question?' 'Oh, I want to go to heaven.' 'Why do you want to go to heaven?' 'Because it will feel good.' 'Ah, so something inside of you wants to feel good?' 'Yes.' 'So, this thing inside of you that wants to feel good - shouldn't it feel good now? Or, should it wait until after you are dead?' It's a very strong point because all your life, you have learned you will go to heaven when you die, so nobody asks you, 'Why do you ask this question?' But my question is not why you want to go to heaven, no. My question is, why do you ask the question. Because, to me, it doesn't matter what question you ask, I want to know why you want to ask it. 'Is there a God?' 'Why do you ask this question?' 'I want to know.' 'Why? Why do you want to know?' 'Oh, because it would be nice.' 'Oh, so something wants to feel nice.' It's the same thing. People always want to feel good now, they want to feel peace now, they want tranquility and harmony now. But their planning is for the end - not for now. The value of the breath Seek the value of this breath and understand what it means to be alive. Then accept and celebrate. I can teach you how to celebrate. I can show you how to celebrate. I can show you how to go within, and I can show you how to turn on that light that removes the darkness of ignorance. It's simple, not complicated. The Master brings news of hope. Why? Because there is hope. The Master brings news of joy. Why? Because there is joy. I can teach you how to celebrate. I can show you how to celebrate. I can show you how to go within. In your life, don't be so happy that you end up becoming sad, and don't be so sad that you never become happy. Walking this life is like walking on a tightrope. To do it successfully, you need a balance, a pole to stop you falling off. And this is the pole of Knowledge, the pole of the Master, the pole of his teachings, so you can balance successfully as you walk along the tightrope. While the world debates, 'Is there a tightrope?' or, 'Why is there a tightrope?' or discusses the difficulty of walking across the tightrope, the Master is saying, 'You can go across. Here. Use this and walk carefully.' So, once again, I ask, as the tree grows a little bigger with each passing season, what do you have to show for the seasons you have gone through? Just a few more gray hairs? A few more wrinkles? Where is the passion for this breath? Where is that fascination to be alive, to find joy, to be touched, to be enlightened, to be in that light where there is no more ignorance, to be in that place where you can feel that gratitude in your life, where you can be alive? That's the day you really begin to live. That's the day you have a reason to smile. This is not about turning rock into sponge. This is not about turning a flower into honey. Even little bees do that. Cows are not particularly bright, but even they are capable of turning water into milk. Even a little lizard can walk on water. A cow takes green grass and turns it into white milk. You would think that at least the milk should be green, but no, it's white - green grass, white milk. Pretty amazing. Accept simplicity Empty-handed you came, but empty-handed you don't have to go. Once somebody asked me, 'What do you think of yoga? I said, 'Zero.' They became upset, and left. But what I wanted to say to them was, 'Knowledge is one, and everything else that we do is a zero. Put Knowledge at the beginning of everything you do, and you have millions and trillions. It's depends on whether you place the one at the end or at the beginning. With one zero, you have ten. With two, you have a hundred. Everything becomes more - the more, the merrier! It doesn't matter how many you add on. It depends where that one is. So many people put that one at the end, but it should always come first. Remember the saying, 'Empty-handed you came into the world, and empty-handed, you will go.' I am letting you into a little trick so that, though empty-handed you came, empty-handed you don't have to go. You can take something with you. Not in your head but in your heart. So be full, be fulfilled. This is the art. There are so many arts, but knowing how to go within is the ultimate art. Learn this art, practice this art, get to know this art. It is one art that anybody can do. There are people in hospital wanting to receive Knowledge. They've been watching videos, and now that we have a new way for people to receive Knowledge, they can. It's very beautiful. Pretty soon, there is going to be a Chinese version and a Japanese version. We already have versions in Hindi, Nepalese, English, Italian, and Spanish. Soon, there will be more. Now what kind of art do you think people lying in hospital can practice? They cannot practice martial arts. Maybe if they had enough strength, they could do a little painting. But they can still practice one art. All the way to the very end of your life, you can still practice one art and that is the art of going inside. It's the only one you can practice all the way to the very last breath. There is no other art in this world, no mantra, no ritual, nothing, that can be practiced until the very end. Deaf come, mute come, blind come — and some are all three. And even for them, Knowledge puts a smile on their face, an unmistakable smile on their face. This will take you to the beautiful, joyful, timeless place where you will be merged with eternity. And, truly, that is liberation. So find the joy that is in front of you. Discover it, touch it, feel it, enjoy it. That is the truest happiness. The happiness of family is good, but it is limited. The happiness of being successful is good, but it is limited. None of these happinesses, none of these joys, removes the darkness of the inside. It doesn't matter how many degrees you have, they can never take away ignorance. But something else does. This is your companion. It will take you inside to the same place where it has always taken you, to the same beautiful, joyful, timeless place where you will be merged with eternity. To be one. And, truly, that is liberation. That is salvation. So, those of you who have this gift of Knowledge, please practice and enjoy and grow. Those of you who are aspiring for this gift of Knowledge, hopefully soon, you will have it. And when you do, take it and accept it from your heart, and enjoy it for the rest of your life.         Copyright © 2001 Visions International Your feedback is most appreciated - enews@elanvital.org   Subscribe to the Elan Vital newsletter                  

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:50:22 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Tife Subject: How ironic Message:

But our seasons still come and we endure them, we go on, with one more day of life, one more day of existence. The question is: what do we have to show for it? If Maharaji were to gather all the people who ever received Knowledge and asked us all that question, how many people would think they've gained something for it? What a laugh, that Maharaji is asking such a question. Don't you understand that the most auspicious thing that is happening in your life is this breath? This is the most auspicious thing because if this breath stopped, nothing would be auspicious. Nothing like beating a new, big word you just learned to death, eh? Hahaha! How auspicious could THAT be? But what Maharaji doesn't understand is that the respiratory system is just one vital system necessary for our survival. What about the cardiovascular system? Why don't we just take our pulse for an hour a day and be soooo grateful we have one? Why just be grateful for the respiratory system? Nothing would be very, er, auspicious, wihtout a heartbeat, now, would it? And how about the digestive system? Let's sing praise to the stomach, or better yet, saliva. Yes, saliva is a digestive juice which without woud rob us of the ability to break down starch, and if you can't do that, you ain't gonna be breathing for too long, booby. And let's not forget the immune system. Why doesn't Maharaji tell somebody with AIDS how beautiful it is to breathe? I'm sure they know but without an immune system working properly, nobody breathes too long in this world. Maharaji's harping on the breath as if it's the end all of what it means to be alive is nothing more than sharing his own ignorance. It's boring and it's tiresome. 'Is there a God?' 'Why do you ask this question?' 'I want to know.' 'Why? Why do you want to know?' 'Oh, because it would be nice.' 'Oh, so something wants to feel nice.' It's the same thing. People always want to feel good now, they want to feel peace now, they want tranquility and harmony now. This is interesting. Maharaji reduces the desire to know God to wanting to feel good. I think it's more than that. It's wanting to know the truth that drives people to find God. Is there one? Why do I ask? Because I want to KNOW, not because something inside will 'feel nice' if I do. Sheesh! Imbecile. So, once again, I ask, as the tree grows a little bigger with each passing season, what do you have to show for the seasons you have gone through? Just a few more gray hairs? A few more wrinkles? Yeah, that's about it. But I was kinda hoping I'd have a lot more by now. You see, I've got this thing called Knowledge which was supposed to work wonders in my life. But like a lot of things, it never did pan out. Ah, life. What're ya gonna do, eh? Promises, promises, who hasn't heard a shitload of them? And, Maharaji, THAT's wisdom, knowing there's no easy way. Life is a rough ride. And the only people I've known who claim to have a map to a smoother ride have all been conmen making a pretty penny with their con. You're just one of them. Enjoy your yacht while summer's still here.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 06:50:10 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Jerry Subject: a recent disproof to the breath Message:

last week, i had a close friend accidentally ingest a huge amount of liquid GHB on the local beach, as a result of drinking thirstily from what he thought was a water bottle being passed around a drum circle. His companions say he became stuporous and drowsy in moments, groped for them incomprehensibly, them staggered and fell facedown in the sand and went into vomiting convulsions, unconscious. 30 minutes had elapsed by the time they managed to get the paramedics there for him to get him to the hospital in an ambulance. i spoke with the same medics an hour later on my front steps, when the same friend who had seen him off, arrived home with similar symptoms, that the poison control line advised me to call 911 for. the medic answered my questions about the first friend, as to where they had taken him. this medic tome in no uncertain terms that my longtime buddy was NOT BREATHING at the time they put him in the ambulance and set off for the neares emergency room. they confirmed that he was still like that when they delivered him and left him in the ER. calls throughout the night to the hospital reported to me that he was put on a respirator and multiple Iv's and moved into the ICU, condition guarded. At morning, they reported that he had regained consciousness but came back 'wild', and had to be resedated and tied hand and foot in straps for his and their safety. we feared brain damage from his stopping breathing from the overdose. i allowed the ominous possibility that he had lost so much brain function that perhaps the overdose and lack of oxygen had reduced him to the leel of a feral animal, maybe never to enjoyhuman thinking ability again. i wondered if he would forever be trapped no higher than his mamal or reptile brain could give. at midmorning the news was a relief: he was awake and off the throat tube and perfectly himself again, albeit quiet and muted, reserved, reflective and circumspect. I receied permission to visit him in ICU. Once there, I asked him what he remembered. this is the same friend who has asked for knowledge since 1991 and been repeatedly refused by the EV frontline because he wont go to videos and therefore no one among them recognizes him. this is the same friend who reached the Light, the Music and Nectar by himself, just by sitting bside me when i sat in meditation, without ever reeiving the techniques. he went to see maharaji every year from 91 to 97, with me. he pondered what he remembered of being at the beach, and recounted this for me: he rmembers drinking from the bottle and passing it on. he remembers a feeling coming over him like utter release and lightness of being. he remembers a wondrous feeling of feeling himself being surrounded in living light and floating off the beach, neither going away nor being able to go down into his body. he does not remember whether he saw the others on the beach. time did not seem something to trouble about. he does remember there being a presence with him, but he could not see it, only feel it with him. the next thi he remembers is hearing funny sounds, like a persistent repeating beep. then it changed pitch. he was puzzled about where he was hearing it from. then he became aware that his body was around him agai, only it felt heavier than it ever had, like a suit of wet cement around him. he felt like he was hovering in and out between being in his body and not. at some point he remembered his eyes coming open and being astonished and confused that what they saw was a white ceiling he didnt recognize. them he felt the nauseous roiling in his gut of the need to puke coming, and a sense of panic when he realized there was something hard and unknown blocking his throat. he reached for his mouth to find out why his throat felt so raw and chiked, and on contact with the trach tube, tried to tear it out of his mouth in readiness to throw up. it was this that the nurse saw as his waking up 'wild' and ran in to restrain him. she would not let him get it out, telling him he was not breathing. he obviously was, or he could not have reached for the tube and wanted to get it out before he vomited all up against it and possibly suffocated himself in aspirated vomit! unable to speak with the tube crammed down his throat, he could not make her understand what he needed to do. she overpowered him and strapped him down again and he fought her, the need to vomit still surging from in his innards. she put him under, and time passed. he could not get his questions answered until he awoke the second time. by then they had taken the tube out and he awoke able to speak and tell them his state. i carefully went over the experience with him several times, listening closely and carefully. the doctor confirmed that medically speaking, he did indeed die. he was not breathing when he was brought in. his account of where he went and what he felt, saw, heard, sensed, all tally with classic bona fide NDE spectrum. nowhere in all of this did he 'go into his breath' or 'realize that the breath is life' or 'the breath is all that is left'. its a crock. it was not his last friend going out, it was not his first embrasure coming back. so all these years of boogie man scare tactics about remembering the breath so you wont waste your life or your death, its all a crock. no one who's had an NDE has seen maharaji over on the other side. he aint nobody over there. noone who has had an NDE has anything to report about Who he is when they get back here. its all a huge and truly slick gamblers bluff that this one little guy has worked for decades on and kept going, thinking theres no way to KNOW, so you better take MY way. he's flat out wrong. he's flat out ignorant. and he;s a flat- out con for working it. i have it firsthand from someone who went there and just came back. who do you think I'm gona listen to? anbody here ever seen maharaji overdose and go into unconscious vomiting convulsions? anybody here ever held him for half an hour while the paramedics came to get him and he wasnt breathing anymore? anybody got anything to put on the table next to my freshest report? anyone? he's workin it. cant wait till his time is done. guaranteed he aint gonna be 'remembering holy name' when it comes for him. bet me. name your price. I'll double it.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:38:15 (EDT) From: pierre Email: None To: Tife Subject: Like the story of the Old empty Barn Message:

THERE WAS NOTHING IN IT There was nothing in it ! Wow, I've been out of all this for a long time but, having read this I can see that it is saying absolutely nothing. pierre

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 15:27:32 (EDT) From: This is Premie Spam Email: None To: Tife Subject: Breathing is great, but what has it... Message:

... got to do with a greedy, lying, megalomaniac Indian man in Malibu?

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:21:55 (EDT) From: salsa but no ketchup Email: None To: Tife Subject: HE CAN SHOW A LOT! Message:

The question is: what do we have to show for it? Lard talking about how all comes and go....he can show much, bastard. ALL THE MILLIONS HE SKIMMED FROM US....hmmm....

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 09:34:03 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: All Subject: If it works, who wouldn't use it? Message:

from 'The Battle for Your Mind' by Dick Sutphen (from a talk he delivered at the World Congress of Professional Hypnotists Convention in Las Vegas, Nevada). 'I have personally experienced sitting in a Los Angeles auditorium with over ten thousand people who were gathered to listen to a current charismatic figure. Twenty minutes after entering the auditorium, I became aware that I was going in and out of an altered state. Those accompanying me experienced the same thing. Since it is our business, we were aware of what was happening, but those around us were not. By careful observation, what appeared to be spontaneous demonstrations were, in fact, artful manipulations. The only way I could figure that the eyes-open trance had been induced was that a 6- to 7-cycle-per-second vibration was being piped into the room behind the air conditioner sound. That particular vibration generates alpha, which would render the audience highly susceptible. Ten to 25 percent of the population is capable of a somnambulistic level of altered states of consciousness; for these people, the suggestions of the speaker, if non-threatening, could potentially be accepted as 'commands.' ' More at: http://www.ctyme.com/bwash/bwash.htm [ Page Link ]

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 11:33:01 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: cq Subject: Picture this... Message:

A big hall filled with premies meditating on the breath, listening to satsang for hours and hours. A weeklong festival with the urug making surprise appearances, and thousands of premies meditating. Music playing. The urug walks out. Surging through the crowd is a massive feeling and tongues are back, eyes glazed over, trancelike, dreamlike, and the physical appearance of the godhead brings all that crap together as if an aircraft dropped valium dust over the crowd. Darshan. Quiet. The lord's in there, better be on the word. The blue silk tunnel which we were told is to prepare us for the tunnel we will see upon our death at the end of which sits the urug. Buzzing ears. He's thinking about me. Lila...that ten bucks I lost doesn't matter, I will survive by his grace. The hours and hours of satsang. Now videos. New age drippy muzak in the background of flowers, oceans, sunsets, all the things in real life that give us joy without the urug. But a premie must believe he created it all. There's an interruption, his voice overs describing in his drivel, how only by his way can one truly enjoy life. Buzz, Buzz, unsane. It's brainwashing. I remember Maharaji once saying that he WAS brainwashing us. His explanation for that was our evil minds, which he made us believe we didn't want nor need, so he was washing it away with meditation, and devotion to the master. Now, does he use machines? Don't know. In these settings, after all the juju inflicted, does he really need a machine? Even so, I am curious. It's no wonder I hate hearing his voice, and looking at his face now. That's why when I went to LG and while reading the satang of premies I felt both mentally and physically sick. Very upset. My system rejects it all now. Then there's the cultspeak. I won't even mention any of those. I'm still working on reclaiming those words for my self.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:23:49 (EDT) From: Tonette Email: None To: cq Subject: Does that bring back a memory! Message:

Guru Puja, 1978, I had taken my brother to Florida with me to attend the three day festival there. I figured he might be interested in knowledge. He decided to go along for the trip, not the knowledge trip mind you, the actual trip to Miami. Anyway, this was back in the grand old days that anyone could go thru the darshan line. You didn't have to 'have' knowledge. And let's face it folks, having 'knowledge' actually equates with avoiding the real facts or knowledge of who Ralwat is. But I digress. My brother did go thru the darshan line and rather than kissing the frogs feet he bowed respectfully. I was more than a little keenly interested in having my brother describe his 'experience' to say the least. He was somewhat upset, not that he didn't have an 'experience' of bliss but he went on to describe what he referred to as a low vibration machine that he spied located near the darshan tunnel or thereabouts. He wanted to know what was wrong with me that I didn't hear and feel the drone from it, the low frequency and slow oscillations it was generating. I thought he was just being wierd and paranoid but he was insistant. 'And by the way, Tonette, don't you know this is a device that is excellent in controlling crowds and in producing a slightly hypnotic state?' I thought he was crazy. In actuality he was the sane one. He left shortly thereafter for the hotel. Destined in my mind to be forever of 'this world,' alas. How lucky he was that I wasn't able to do him any favor. My brother's remarks sure sound remarkably similar to what is described by your post, CQ. Wouldn't surprise me at all if Ralwat used this type of shit on people. Tonette

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:20:38 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Re: Does that bring back a memory! Message:

only one problem with your recollection. guru puja wasnt held in miami in 1978. i was pregnant with my son that year ,and was dragged all over the country against my will, and by the time guru puja was held in tucson, i flatly refused to be made to change course yet again. we were in new jersey, east orang ecommunity, and went to listen to a phone feed of mahraji;s satsang from tucson at their hall. i remember my kids dad mouning and moping wistfully that he couldnt be there because of me and 'my' doing this 'to him'.(!) maybe it was earlier in the year. tonette.Holi WAS held in miami earlier that year, and i WAS at that one.. the darshan line wasnt set up in the back the usual way, on the side furthest from the front doors. that time it was set up so the line moved TOWARD the front doors, because the stage he sat on was along the left side of the hall relative to the front doors. i remember it well because of the sunlight coming in the front windows blinding me with glare as i waited in line for my turn. i also remember my baby doing nuaeating flips in my gut when i bent down to kiss his feet. wonder if the machine had anything to do with that?? btw--someone else further down refers to jean michel having seen the machine. i wonder if bazza knew about this when he was asked to set up the security rigged cameras around the hall. he said he was backstage at miami recently within the last year as a detached observer, disguised as convention hall union staff (this was aparently during his brief phase as a disaffected outsider, before his darshan dreams wooed hiack into rejoining the fold) and saw the database for the smart card reader and he could have plugged in his laptop and copied it all into his own RAM if he was that kinda guy. theres always the future. maybe he'll come back again some time. i am very interested in this machine. i have some tapes from the 80's in which a figure who called himself 'brother charles' filtered all his talks thru a mixer which embedded his voice into 8cps (cycles per second=alpha frequency) so that all the listeners would be put into alpha state when they listened to him. he made no secret about it, he advertised it openly and i got the tapes for free as demo products to see how they made me feel. i hope we probe into this more.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:01:19 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Re: Does that bring back a memory! Message:

Otaaaay, this be a bit weird. The first time meee hubeee went thru the ole tunnel in Miami, he got to the entrance and the hair stood up on his arm. To this day he's always wondered if there wasn't some magnetic, electrical thing going on to produce something. I, in my never ending trove of knowledge, assured him it was none other than real, live, darshan......

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:25:51 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: Does that bring back a memory! Message:

If the tunnel was created using silk fabrics on a metal frame, it could well have been static electricity that caused your hubby's hair to stand on end. (then again, maybe it was just his common sense kicking in!)

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 04:35:40 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Holy Cow, Tonette! Message:

Very interesting.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:18:46 (EDT) From: Peg Email: None To: cq Subject: Is this really true ? Message:

Gerry said below about low frequency alpha whatchamacally at programmes. Was that something seen once or a regular thing? Do they still do it? When did it start? Does anyone know anything about this for sure? I just can't believe it.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 08:01:20 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: Peg Subject: Re: Is this really true ? Message:

Can't vouch for the author, Peg, but he seems to have at least researched his subject. As for whether Rawat/EV use such technology - I've no proof of them doing so, but Tonette's post seems to indicate that they might. And as I said in the title of this thread - if it works, why wouldn't they use it? Here's a bit more from the website: 'SoundWaves below 6 cycles per second caused the subjects to become very emotionally upset, and even disrupted bodily functions. At 8.2 cycles, they felt very high...an elevated feeling, as though they had been in masterful meditation, learned over a period of years. Eleven to 11.3 cycles induced waves of depressed agitation leading to riotous behavior. If you spend an hour to an hour and a half a day in meditation, after a few weeks, there is a great probability that you will not return to full beta consciousness. You will remain in a fixed state of alpha for as long as you continue to meditate. I'm not saying this is bad--if you do it yourself. It may be very beneficial. But it is a fact that you are causing your mind to go flat. I've worked with meditators on an EEG machine and the results are conclusive: the more you meditate, the flatter your mind becomes until, eventually and especially if used to excess or in combination with decognition, all thought ceases. Some spiritual groups see this as nirvana--which is bullshit. It is simply a predictable physiological result. And if heaven on earth is non-thinking and non-involvement, I really question why we are here.'

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 17:59:45 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Peg Subject: Re: Is this really true ? Message:

Peg, maybe not, but I wouldn't be surprised. But do you notice how many other characteristics fit the bill. Do you think it would be beyond the BigHead to resort to technological 'tricks'. I don't. The fact that the premies are carrying around the 'pre-set condition' is strong enough to create what illusions they want to see. Also, the chemical conditioning from Maha expectations would be enough to set a crowd off at a program. That's why people go to the programs. Unfortunately, they give maha the credit for the high. but is it a high? Do you love the part about the fanatics, meet the CAC. Go read the posts to Jim's thread to premies. Pretty sick isn't it? Glad you don't think like them? Yuuucccckkkkkk t's not

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:00:31 (EDT) From: Peg Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re:Re; Is this really true ? Message:

I spoke to my (now severely wavering premie) husband about this and he could not believe it was possible in fact I could see he rose to m's defence that anyone would say such a thing. Also the friend who likes the knowledge but not M said she went to the programmes for the good feeling she got there. I think if it is true it would be the last straw for many, to be so obviously manipulated and also for the fact that there is a need for a supplement to the reality I agree with what you say about pre set condition so many people together with the same expectation. I think it is a high, there are many ways to get high though. I really think those caca catweasle passing through types are the exception with premies. I'll know for sure when I start talking more openly I suppose. after all if you are a really full on devotee type: giving loads of money, practising two hours a day, doing service at local events or perhaps full time service, bringing other people to knowledge going to every event you can possibly manage possibly neglecting your family ...not enough time left for them and having the main aim of your life to spend time with Maharaji ...then you will be PRETTY DESPERATE to avoid the reality that you are just in another cult and your leader is a bit of a creep.... wON'T YOU? I was lucky really...I was like that in the early days but was getting a lot from the real world as well by the time I arrived here. I think I'm going to survive this.

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 06:09:05 (EDT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Peg Subject: I had a premie husband too! Message:

He took a look at EPO, read some of the stuff here, there, where ever we are and stopped practicing one day. Just like that! He was never Mr. Knowledge mind you, but he did practice knowledge and meditation for 25 years or so. I wish you luck in your household with your husband. It's harder for some in leaving. Don't be surprised to find him very angry and cynical after he wakes up. Hang in there and be gentle with him. There's no formula in figuring out how long his exiting will take now that the seeds of doubt are sown but at least he's looking at it. Tonette

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:17:39 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Peg Subject: Re: Re:Re; Is this really true ?? Message:

Well Peg, if those caca weasel and Pissing through types are the exception to the rule of 'premies' than that must mean they are the CACa perpetrators. I believe they are involved, i just don't know to what degree but I am doing my homework. And I don't think the premies who do all the work and bring people to the fold are their type. They are too angry and rebellious to get the good service gigs. NOPE. Bet you they are unwanted even in premie circles. They'll say they are not, but they lie or freak-out in every post. Never had a sensible post. Never. Never heard a calm word. Never. Could you imagine being that angry and UGLY 24/7. Abnormal. I was a service freak in my premie career days and you didn't get those type of people close to Maha. IT's called 'Bongo List'. People motivated to be around the BigHead never spoke out with demonic slurs. Can you imagine those idiots ever having a moment of peace? They don't. They are frustrated as premies and know they are miserable but can't give themselves permission to say they were wrong about the big Fraud. So they attack the messenger. Most people that you describe simply don't come here. If they do or did, they would see it was contrary to their belief and leave. They (caca weasels and pissing throughers) have made a career about being here. See the difference. Just speculating, however. Nice chatting w/you. Sorry, didn't realize your husband was still on the fence. Take care, Deborah

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:59:44 (EDT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Deborah Subject: My One Cent Message:

The few premie friends that I have are SCARED to look at EPO. They do NOT want to even hear about it! Not at all! Does not matter how gently I approach the subject with them. Definately reminds me of an ostrich with his head in the sand. I really do feel sorry for them. The inability to dare take a close look at and examine who and what they believe in. It's so sad. Tonette

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 15:37:36 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: cq Subject: Pieces to the puzzle here, thanks cq Message:

Thanks for this contribution cq. It all goes to the question asked years ago, Who is GMJ? Well, this info indicates that he is no different from what many charismatic leaders become as they skillfully utilize many of the mind control tactics covered in the web page linked here. Thanks for posting this [ > The Battle for Your Mind' ]

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 15:03:33 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: cq Subject: Maha does use it? Message:

This is excellent web page for understanding the external 'mechanisms' that account for that internal 'feeling' the cultists are talking about. Whether or not Maha is sophisticated enough to use the technical 'tricks' he has Mastered the brain and thought conditioning 'tricks'. The very fact the apriori reasoning tells the brain that the BigHead is the Perfect Master affects the way the brain perceives him. And another important statement Dick Stuphen says abbout the ability to be brainwashed follows: As long as those commands did not ask the viewer to do something contrary to his morals, religion or self-preservation. This is one very good reason why Maha doesn't have to say anything. The wanked out premies are blindly acting out for the BigHead while other premies are convinced that the BigHead would never condone that action. Why? He never said it to them. But we know that the BigHead is either behind this with an X-rated group of Guru groupies who think this task is cool. Or it is subtlety suggested that the premies retaliate with his blessings. Either way, is this someone you want to be in bed with? Sick little fucker that he is. I HATE MAHA and proud of it!

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 09:50:38 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: cq Subject: Some reasons why I hate Rawat Message:

Hi cq, Thanks for the link: Very informative....and UNNERVING!! Steps in the Decognition Process Once the initial conversion is effected, cults, armed services, and similar groups cannot have cynicism among their members. Members must respond to commands and do as they are told, otherwise they are dangerous to the organizational control. This is normally accomplished as a three-step ˜ Decognition Process. Alertness reduction Step One is alertness reduction: The controllers cause the nervous system to malfunction, making it difficult to distinguish between fantasy and reality. This can be accomplished in several ways. poor diet is one; watch out for Brownies and Koolaid. The sugar throws the nervous system off. More subtle is the 'spiritual diet' used by many cults. They eat only vegetables and fruits; without the grounding of grains, nuts, seeds, dairy products, fish or meat, an individual becomes mentally 'spacey.' Inadequate sleep is another primary way to reduce alertness, especially when combined with long hours of work or intense physical activity. Also, being bombarded with intense and unique experiences achieves the same result. Programmed Confusion Step Two is programmed confusion: You are mentally assaulted while your alertness is being reduced as in Step One. This is accomplished with a deluge of new information, lectures, discussion groups, encounters or one-to-one processing, which usually amounts to the controller bombarding the individual with questions. During this phase of decognition, reality and illusion often merge and perverted logic is likely to be accepted. Thought Stopping Step Three is thought stopping: Techniques are used to cause the mind to go 'flat.' These are altered-state-of-consciousness techniques that initially induce calmness by giving the mind something simple to deal with and focusing awareness. The continued use brings on a feeling of elation and eventually hallucination. The result is the reduction of thought and eventually, if used long enough, the cessation of all thought and withdrawal from everyone and everything except that which the controllers direct. The takeover is then complete. It is important to be aware that when members or participants are instructed to use 'thought-stopping' techniques, they are told that they will benefit by so doing: they will become 'better soldiers' or 'find enlightenment.' For the ones criticizing my anger in the past. Yes, I could have left the cult sooner..... if tricks wouldn't have played in my head! BRAINWASHING/ENDOCTRINATION/SERVITUDE/NO CONSENT/TWO AND HALF DECADES LOST=ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES:MAHARAJI HAVE TO BE EXPOSSED. AUGHHHHH

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 08:30:13 (EDT) From: Bob Email: None To: All Subject: Michael Jackson Message:

Did anybody see Michael Jackson opening Wall street yesterday? I see many similarities!!

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 05:46:32 (EDT) From: [Blank] Email: None To: All Subject: Boris Message:

Nice move, da? Removing all connection to CAC on your site, plus the other stuff. Not long now.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:28:44 (EDT) From: teeth Email: None To: [Blank] Subject: Get lost, asshole! Message:

except you are just a bad writer and an ex. lol

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Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 02:26:18 (EDT) From: [Blank] Email: None To: teeth Subject: Re: Get lost, asshole! Message:

what sort of teeth are you? A hourse ass type?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:46:06 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: All Subject: Oh, Lord of Hosts, Provider of this Universe Message:

look unto All these humble people, our blessed Creator, Sustainer, the giver of Life. i do beseech thee, our Mother, our Father, the universal cosmic energy of All. Bless all those in suffering, and for your name's sake, please, I beg of you, PLease -- redeem and release all those enslaved by delusions of false and greedy prophets, by materialist manipulators, by both worldy and spiritual enslavers, and help all those who suffer in silence and in the humbleness and the sanctuary of their own hearts. Let my People go! Let my People go! Thank you. thank you. thank you. Amen.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 01:09:53 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Amen. Praise the lord and pass the affidavits [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 02:45:53 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: avid Davids? ok... Message:

lotsa mozzarella and matsy on da rocksy Peace and lentils...

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 04:53:11 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: such Subject: Bye, I'm leaving Message:

I have had my say and really have nothing further to add. That was the message that I was going to post a week ago. After I had been posting on the ex-premie forum for about six months I began to think that I had run out of things to say. I had already written about why I left Rawat and, in writing about it, had clarified it for myself. I had lampooned Rawat and called him names and been totally irreverent almost as a way to purge myself of the misplaced and exaggerated esteem in which I had held him for 28 years. Then I began to chat OT and simply socialize and gossip for which I have already apologised. (BTW when the anonymous cacweasels gloat and say that CAC gave us a dose of our own medicine and now we know the way Rawat feels about our criticism, they are being disingenuous. As I said to Passing On: I didn't say I was god or make millions of bucks out of starting a religion. I didn't say no one could be saved except through the master etc etc. Neither can I afford to build a gatehouse that costs $2.5 million. The gatehouse is almost the size of my house and must contain an awful lot of security and surveillance sytems to cost that much. No I don't have millions to protect myself from murderous fanatical premies like Fakiranand. So when Rawat cynically and maliciously lumped me in with child-molesters and published my address for all to see he was exposing me to a danger that he would never have to face.) During my 8 months involvement on the forum I still believed that Rawat was simply a silly ignoramus and a greedy selfish pig and if anyone said to me that he was evil and dangerous I would laugh and say they had been out of the cult for too long and that really he was only another flakey new age religion salesman not the creator of a sinister cult. So I got to the point where I pretty much stopped posting and hardly ever read the forum because I was too busy and because I had said my piece and did not feel like rehashing the same old stuff and I did not think Rawat warranted my attention any longer as I did not see him as a danger. Well, thanks to CAC, I now see that Rawat is evil, that he runs a sinister and dangerous cult and that he will do the most unethical and irresponsible things to stop his religion business from being hurt. CAC is all about money. Premies are leaving and donations are down and the cult is finished in the west and will never recruit enough people to continue the pyramid scheme that it is. Thanks to CAC I will not be going away any time soon. Why? Because the pyramid scheme really isn't just about money. It is also about enslaving people into a primitive and astonishly silly religion. The Belief System survives through propagation. By enslaving another person one's belief system is re-inforced. When people are no longer interested in your religion it erodes your faith. When people actively criticise your religion it seems like a you are under attack and must eradicate your opponent. Any religion that needs to be defended by inciting hatred and jihads is a sick religion. So, all of a sudden, I find I still have a lot more to say.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 08:16:10 (EDT) From: Bob Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Bye, I'm leaving Message:

Had exactly the same experience. Actually the cac made the forum a lot cooler!

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 13:29:24 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Bob Subject: Exactly, Bob Message:

It brought the focus back to what we really are here for - not fighting with each other over petty differences but concentrating on what we all have in common - the conviction that what Rawat is doing is wrong.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:36:22 (EDT) From: Loco Email: None To: All Subject: could this be rob e-mail? Message:

found it on the net Robert note: bori cua

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Date: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:40:43 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Loco Subject: That's interesting Message:

Could you elaborate?

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 00:29:45 (EDT) From: [Blank] Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: That's interesting Message:

goto http://www.da.ru/ click forum and have a look. Too close to home to ignore. Remember Boris second name?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 22:34:14 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: All Subject: And when Jesus was thus criticized by Judas Message:

And it came to pass that Judas did criticize the master saying; ''Why are you wasting all that money on a whore like Mary Magdalene when we could give it to the poor.'' And Jesus answered saying: ''The poor are always with you but I am not.'' Judas was sad unto death at hearing this and decided to expose the master as an insouciant wastrel and womanizer. And it came to pass that Jesus hired some expensive New York lawyers and created a website to smear Judas' name and attacked Judas and tried to destroy his livelihood and spread false rumors about him and intimidated him by publishing his personal deetails, phone number, email and address on the internet so that his most fanatical follwers would track down Judas and smash his head in with a hammer. Okay, guys, I'm not knocking Jesus. In fact I don't think he did that. But of course in his current incarnation as Rev Rawat he has. How the internet has changed the lord god almighty!

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 03:53:51 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: nahhhh. PPSR aint no son o god Message:

jesus was a cool dude. he let things take thier course. rawat, on the other hand, aint got a lick of faith, and his acts prove it: all the paranoia, the security, the distancing himself from his followers, from the public, from just people, period. he's so ordinary...no, wait--he's below ordinary! he's so sleazy and greasy and covetous and materialistic... when jesus needed money, he went out and worked to make some. he carpentered. he fished. fatboy just sits up in his airconditioned fortress and stokes his ravenous appetites. gimme gimme gimmee. nahhhh. rawat aint no son o god. he jes a con.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:46:27 (EDT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: And when Jesus was thus criticized by Judas Message:

interesting re judas. i went thru lots of doubt in leaving m. i was raised catholic and had fair awareness of scriptures...and later the more modern..life(s) of jesus etc. and as i was kinda one of the apostles of the guru who was kinda like jesus in mind for some time...when i left all that came down on my head inside my head. as i understood the judas story...he joined the gang becasue he felt that jesus's message was to estabilish a kiingdom on earth...judas came from the activist side of judaism..secular side...some other apoltles did as well. and when he realized jesus was not interested in establishing anything 'on this earth' he was disappointed...to say the least he felt betrayed....and that feeling of betrayal lead him to 'betray' jesus...and then he felt guilty for that 'betrayal' and killed himself. how deep the message that m and the mahatmas around him went into our (my) being. the places inside that the message resinated with, how set up by my personal biography i was...

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 07:25:31 (EDT) From: Jorge Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Re: And when Jesus was thus criticized by Judas Message:

Check out Jorge Luis Borges' short story 'Three versions of Judas': A very interesting theological twist. Fun too. I won't spoil it for you. Regards

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 09:25:59 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Jorge Subject: OT Message:

sos de bs. As.?

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 13:27:24 (EDT) From: Jorge Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Re: OT Message:

de Lima limon, Peru. Muy fan de Borges y Sabato. ¿Y tu?

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 14:33:06 (EDT) From: yo Email: None To: Jorge Subject: Re: OT Message:

soy de ahi. Entenderas porque no quiero hablar...

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 16:28:48 (EDT) From: Jorge Email: boethius@qrio.com To: yo Subject: Re: OT Message:

Si quieres, escribeme. Arriba esta mi direccion. Chau

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 00:45:59 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Judas got a bad rap Message:

Mike I also was catholic and lived in a monastery for two years (before the cult involvement) and was very idealistic. I think many of us believed that we were part of a beautiful movement to bring peace and love to earth - to establish heaven on earth, feed and clothe the hungry and sick etc.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 20:40:31 (EDT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Is There A Real Threat To Anybody's Safety Message:

Is there a real threat to anybody's safety from CAC, with or without Maharaji's support? If so, is action being taken in league with the proper authorities? The comparisons to Jonestown seem more incisive than ever. It's sad but inevitable what's happening. I hope the future unfolds without any further mental or physical harm to anyone. Untold mental anguish and deaths, specifically from suicide, have occured to premies and their friends and families. Mr. Rawat, come out come out and come clean. No more suffering by your followers, please.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:41:36 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Yes, Steve, yours! Message:

Do we rally want to talk like this on the forum?

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:11:58 (EDT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Yes, Steve, yours! Message:

You O.K., Jim? You seem to be in good spirits lately judging from your recent posts? Why this type of paranoia now? Steve

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:45:57 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Sorry, Steve Message:

Sorry, Steve, In a way, I'm being hypocritical seeing as I kind of alluded to this same question in my post above 'Question for Premies'. On the one hand, I don't want to give any crazy loose cannons any crazy-loose-cannon-type ideas, on the other, sure, it's a good question. So, sorry for beign a bit two-faced on this ... gotta run ...late as hell

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 08:17:05 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Yes, Steve, yours! Message:

Do we rally want to talk like this on the forum? --- Has it dawned on you that not everyone has the capacity to be as twisted and two faced like youeself? Some people just wanna be real.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 10:36:34 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joey Subject: Oh great ...... Message:

Jstu what I need, a Joey attack. Give it up, Joey. I've got better things to do.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:10:59 (EDT) From: Ulf Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Oh great ...... Message:

Jstu what I need, a Joey attack. Give it up, Joey. I've got better things to do. --- Hi Jim Perhaps you have some news, about Reno Renegade for us ? Ulf

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:40:23 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Ulf Subject: No, wish I did Message:

Sorry, Ulf, but nothing. Reno?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 20:49:00 (EDT) From: One of the CAC Victims Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Until Maharaji says something, YES Message:

Until Maharaji, Prem Pal Singh Rawat, publicly says, and communicates it to his devotees, that what CAC did was wrong and he doesn't want them doing it, there is no reason to assume it won't happen again. I am of the opinion that Elan Vital has very little power in this situation, as most premies hate and distrust Elan Vital anyway, and the people who did the CAC site, only state they follow Maharaji, so only he can prevent further such problems. Doesn't this just make common sense? So, until he says something and we have it clear that he did, I think we all should be very, very concerned about our safety. So, why, oh why, hasn't he done anything? Mr. Rawat, are you listening?

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 02:55:26 (EDT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: One of the CAC Victims Subject: Re: Until Maharaji says something, YES Message:

Well maybe on a good day. But it is entirely plausible for a devotee who is receiving personal messges inside their head from the indivisible lord of the universe - it is possible for that person to view anything MJ says, even direct orders, as a lila which only they (the devotee) can really understand. i.e. MJ could say 'quit it!' and the devotee could say 'I know he is saying that but I also know that what he really means is .....' or 'The way he said it really means he wants me to continue and he is really pleased with what I have created.' So MJ has only limited abilites to deal with some devotees. He really does live in a Monty Python world - 'I am not the messiah' 'yes you are not the messiah' etc That is if MJ actually wanted it to stop. Far be it from him to stoop to petty revenge. Cheers Peter

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 18:45:14 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Re: Until Maharaji says something, YES Message:

Easy to see you left a long time ago Pete. I'll bet you dont still wear your clothes from 1980. Why do you persist in projecting YOUR thought patterns from that period?

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 19:22:23 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: CW Subject: Darshan dream agya Message:

At least four premies I know still take that serioulsy. Not all premies have ''evolved'' from the Hindu hippie stuff to be a thoroughly modern enlightened PWK.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 11:54:59 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: God Peter, that's scary Message:

You mean there are still premies around with 'inner agya,' like happened when that premie killed those sisters in Talahassee in the 70s? But then, Maharaji DID come out with a statement then that there was no such thing as 'inner agya.' I remember he did do that.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 08:27:03 (EDT) From: Bob Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: he is too scared Message:

rawat is seriously in doubt if he has enough control even over his premies. Even there he shields himself behind EV. He does not dare to come out and condemn certain actions, being afraid that he loses control. He sees many moves he makes backfiring and therefore hinds behind the caricature of a corporation , which EV is.

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Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 04:58:00 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Nice, Peter - the Monty Python jihad Message:

Yes it is a Monty Pythonesque cult. Only problem it's a bit like a Monty Python skit being filmed on the set of a slasher movie by Alfred Hitchcock.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 21:42:34 (EDT) From: Steve Quint Email: None To: One of the CAC Victims Subject: Maharaji Should Issue Common Sense Statements Message:

I like your response, in particular the phrase 'common sense' touched me. Yes, isn't it becoming clear now? If Maharaji is or was 'Lord Of The Universe', etc. then his followers might be tempted to follow his real or perceived 'agya' or instructions implicitly. They might break the law in order to 'save their soul' if that's how Maharaji's real or perceived communications have come across to him. If a follower has a mental illness this can exacerbate matters, as some schizophrenics and such tend to comb statements for various possible meanings and tend to take things literally. The only way that Maharaji can avoid some renegade follower flying off the handle and doing something strange to save his soul or some such religious or spiritual goal where the perceived ends may justify the means is to issue statements that he is not God and explain why he used to have followers sing such things as 'The lord of the universe has come to us this day' and 'Our lord's the superior power in person, I bow down before such a wonderful lord'. I believe that public advertising to educate the public about such potential Jonestown-type occurances and to request Maharaji's public explanation and clarification is a good idea if the funds are available. Should the American, Canadian, etc. publics be subsidizing people like Maharaji through tax sheltering of donations when his type of teaching can trigger the most horrendous kinds of mental illness and irresponsible actions? Steve

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Date: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 23:34:48 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Right,Steve! + take care of yourself,bro. P+L [nt] Message:

peace and lentils

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