SC -:- Norman Mailer Speaks -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:26:42 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Whole new section of The Book online -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:11:23 (EDT)

__ **** -:- Re: Whole new section of The Book online -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:41:00 (EDT)

__ btdt -:- Re: Whole new section of The Book online -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:29:47 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Sarupanand HAD female mahatmas! -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:24:52 (EDT)

__ Mili -:- Are you really getting paid for this? -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:03:17 (EDT)

__ __ Jethro -:- where is you appreciation? -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:04:54 (EDT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Are you jealous? Money better/Grace? -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:46:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Are you jealous? Money better/Grace? -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:06:17 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Fuck off Millie... -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:09:35 (EDT)

Hope this is OK -:- Thought it was very appropriate for 12/9/01 -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:01:02 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Divinity within. -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:47:14 (EDT)

__ Silvia -:- is not OK -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:56:56 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- Not OK no gooroo shatsang EVER!!! (NT) -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:23:53 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- No shitsang here... -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:32:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The greatest love -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:20:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: The greatest love -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:34:50 (EDT)

The Qur'an -:- You shall not kill any person -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:23:05 (EDT)

__ cq -:- the terrorists are in big trouble with Allah -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:09:04 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Yup, that's in the Bible too. -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:52:11 (EDT)

__ Jethro -:- Here's another one -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:18:32 (EDT)

__ Now this Allah -:- is one smart dude -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:44:03 (EDT)

salam -:- to yelnaws -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:17:01 (EDT)

__ Silvia -:- Please, read your mail NT -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:50:56 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Silvia.... -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:03:00 (EDT)

__ janet -:- probly lives in Swanlea -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 07:01:28 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- New strategy -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:13:33 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: New strategy -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:20:09 (EDT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Here's an excerpt of his emails -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:18:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ don p. -:- Re: Here's an excerpt of his emails -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:43:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I think he's a troll... -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:59:20 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- After the terror: silence (OT) -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:18:09 (EDT)

__ JohnT -:- America's agony -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:46:55 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: America's agony -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:37:17 (EDT)

__ Scott T. -:- Re: After the terror: silence (OT) -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:52:25 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Settling the world affairs -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:04:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Settling the world affairs -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:51:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Settling the world affairs -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:21:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- thanks Cynthia -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:39:52 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- for fucks sake scott !! -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:41:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ Katie from cyberspace -:- Dermot and all -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:15:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Little retaliation. -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:15:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- I don't see any anti-American sentiment here -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:37:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie from cyberspace -:- Re: I don't see any anti-American sentiment here -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:46:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey Katie. -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 14:03:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Why? -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:28:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: for fucks sake scott !! -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:30:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- What's a terrorist Jerry? -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 14:18:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Ddermot -:- 'something's got to be done' -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:20:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie from cyberspace -:- Re: 'something's got to be done' -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:38:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Well let's hope so Katie -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:20:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- How can it be 'war'? -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:03:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: How can it be 'war'? -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:33:40 (EDT)

__ Brian Smith -:- I wish I were there now -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:15:46 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- I wish you were here now -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:11:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Re: I wish you were here now -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:46:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- hopefully -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:44:35 (EDT)

__ a0aji -:- :: nice post, Pat :: [nt] -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:15:22 (EDT)

__ bill -:- Re: After the terror, well, Ive been dancing. -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:12:52 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- So that's the answer, Bill -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:17:21 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- That's so like you, Bill...:;) [nt] -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:34:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ a0aji -:- :: yeah, it really is :: [nt] -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:10:15 (EDT)

Silvia -:- MAHARAJI TEAChINGS sickens people's minds -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:14:34 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Sorry to disappoint you but -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 03:35:39 (EDT)

__ __ Silvia -:- clap me with the truth... -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:12:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Of course the abuser IS responsible -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:02:13 (EDT)

yelnaws -:- re i need help -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:58:43 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- I will email you -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:18:59 (EDT)

__ __ magiclara -:- How are you Pat -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:32:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Much better thanks -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:09:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Hello Pat -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:31:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Hello Pat U.S. anthem played at Buckingam Palace -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:46:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- World peace -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:51:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You're not a sissy, Pat... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:43:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hey there Cynthia -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:46:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I okay, thanks for asking... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:56:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- My thoughts -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:05:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Hello Marianne -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:51:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi Brian -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:02:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Thank You Marianne -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:25:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: My thoughts -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:25:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Cynthia, read your email -nt -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:31:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Hi Cynthia -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:01:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Pat... -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:10:38 (EDT)

__ Silvia -:- No, relax -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:34:59 (EDT)

__ __ yelnaws -:- Re: No, relax -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:48:36 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Yelnaws... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:05:25 (EDT)

__ __ yelnaws -:- Re: Yelnaws... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:32:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Yelnaws... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:46:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Hi Cynthia -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:52:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Yelnaws... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:50:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Yelnaws... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:52:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:55:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 21:34:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 22:20:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 21:29:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Just read what you said -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 21:42:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: Just read what you said -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 22:16:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I emailed y several hours ago, no response yet -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:26:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:06:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 22:22:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Look here... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:53:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- You are so right! [nt] -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:30:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: Look here... -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:27:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Look here... -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:28:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- thanks for answering -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:49:13 (EDT)

yelnaws -:- jay sat chit anand -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:49:48 (EDT)

yelnaws -:- re are you french -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:15:55 (EDT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Please Speak, tell us what you are feeling -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:33:51 (EDT)

__ __ yelnaws -:- Re: Please Speak, tell us what you are feeling -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:45:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Please Speak, tell us what you are feeling -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:57:55 (EDT)

yelnaws -:- is there anyone out there -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:43:08 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Are you French? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:53:15 (EDT)

yelnaws -:- I need help -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:36:43 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Just start typing -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:42:09 (EDT)

__ Brian Smith -:- You just Did -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:51:51 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- Black and White and Red and Brown... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:35:28 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- ***Really beautiful post*** -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:15:58 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Deborah... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:22:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- That's wild! -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:58:31 (EDT)

Dermot -:- Reports this side of pond -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:34:33 (EDT)

__ Voyeur -:- Re: Reports this side of pond -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:18:54 (EDT)

__ __ Katie from cyberspace -:- to Voyeur -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:54:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: to Voyeur -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:47:19 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Good thoughts to you -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:03:23 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- I feel for you -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:39:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: I feel for you -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:11:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: I feel for you -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:10:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: I feel for you too -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:26:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: I feel for you too -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 07:53:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Good news, glad to hear that :) -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:22:24 (EDT)

Francesca -:- Survivor info (OT) -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 14:03:53 (EDT)

Suedoula (Susan) -:- Musings on a post apocalyptic day -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 12:15:52 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Hello Suedoula... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:57:08 (EDT)

__ __ Suedoula -:- Re: Hello Suedoula... -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 14:08:12 (EDT)

Francesca -:- Don't say anything you don't mean on the Internet -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 11:53:35 (EDT)

__ [Blank] -:- Re: Don't say anything. -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:05:14 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Very convenient'declaration of war' -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:10:47 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- My thoughts exactly Francesca... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:47:45 (EDT)

Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:26:42 (EDT) From: SC Email: None To: All Subject: Norman Mailer Speaks Message:

THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 13 2001 'Ruin more beautiful than the building' BY ANN TRENEMAN NORMAN MAILER, America’s greatest living novelist, raged against terrorism last night and said that the remaining steel prongs of the World Trade Centre would inevitably become a national monument. “It is more beautiful than the building was,” Mr Mailer, 78, who described the towers as “two huge buck teeth”, said. “I think they will keep it. If they have any sense they will. And politicians usually have exactly that kind of sense, if no other. I don’t disapprove of that. You’ve got that many people killed who’ve had nothing to do with bringing on their own death other than working in a monument to corporatism.” Mr Mailer was speaking to The Times from his home in Provincetown on Cape Cod in Massachusetts. He said that like everyone else in America he had been watching television non-stop for hours. “That only happens a few times in your life. Jack Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy. Martin Luther King. Maybe ten times.” He said he was given a running commentary on the attack in New York by several of his children (he has been married six times and has nine children) who live in his old flat in Brooklyn Heights, across the river from the World Trade Centre. Terrorism was detestable, he said, and violated the human desire to control their deaths to some extent. “If I am going to be killed, I want to see the eyes of the man who shoots me. I don’t want to be killed by surprise. “Apart from all the other horrors of the Nazis, the true horror was the way they gassed people who thought they were going to get a shower. That was the ultimate horror. This form of terrorism is equal to that.” Mr Mailer, a critic of American power and governments over many years, said several ironies would come out of the attack. “One benefit from all this horror is that we may be able to stop talking about Star Wars.” It would also hurt globalisation, of which he disapproves. He said that America and globalism were inextricably linked. “It is McDonald’s cubed. “Which huge corporation is now going to invest billions and billions and trillions of dollars in something that can be destroyed by terrorism? So globalism takes a blow. Star Wars takes a blow. Those are the two ironies that I can withdraw from this with some feeling that it has not been a total disaster. On the other hand the damage it has done to America is immense.” “America is frightened by the sophistication of the attack and that will fuel the paranoia that is inherent in such a young country. “In America it is very hard to find the house or hospital in which you were born. It’s all been changed. “In a certain sense, all Americans are actors because in a spiritual sense they never know which bed they are going to sleep in. They are like actors on tour. “That does create an awful lot of paranoia. One doesn’t feel rooted and one doesn’t know where the threats are coming from. It is very easy for the imagination to swell and fester.” Now there would be a new patriotism, he said. “People are going to care again for a while. I’m always dubious about patriotism. “But when our country hasn’t any young people who are willing to die for an idea, that country is in trouble. So now there will be people who will be eager to fight a war in America. The only question is how are they going to find the enemy?” Mr Mailer believes that the attacks were masterminded by Islamic terrorists willing to die for their cause and that Americans must begin to try to understand why so many people abhor their country. “What Americans refuse to recognise is that large parts of the world, particularly the most backward nations, see us as cultural oppressors and aesthetic oppressors. We come in and we insist on establishing enclaves of our food there, like McDonald’s. We put up our high-rise buildings until the meanest, scummiest capital in the world will nonetheless have a ring of high-rise hotels and buildings around their airports. “A lot of people resent it profoundly. They don’t have money. “They don’t have comfortable lives, they don’t have democratic government but what they do have is roots. That’s all they have and this is taking it away. America is doing that. Until America realises the damage it is doing by insisting that that way of life, the huge profit-making way of life, is not necessarily a good fit for most countries, we are going to be in trouble. “We are going to be the most hated nation on earth.” Mr Mailer, whose first novel was the brilliant The Naked and the Dead in 1948, has written about 30 books including Armies of the Night, The Executioner’s Song and Harlot’s Ghost, a 1,310-page epic of life in the CIA. Copyright 2001 Times Newspapers Ltd. This service is provided on Times Newspapers' standard terms and conditions. To inquire about a licence to reproduce material from The Times, visit the Syndication website.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:11:23 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: Whole new section of The Book online Message:

Quite some interesting stuff on the 2nd and 3rd master (Swaroopanand and Vairag Anand): THE THIRD ILLUSTRIOUS MASTER OFTHE LINE SHRI SHRI 108 SHRI SWAMI VAIRAG ANAND JI MAHARAJ MEETING WITH SHRI SADGURU DEV JI MAHARAJ THE SECOND MASTER Sadhu's Garb Spiritual Succession At Shri Anandpur Among other things, you'll read that they had 'Bai Jis'), thus would gave initiation to women ... Thus invalidating Mr Rawat theories on why his father left the fold. [ P Advait mat Book - Page 312-389 ]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:41:00 (EDT) From: **** Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Whole new section of The Book online Message:

You are an Apostol!!!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:29:47 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Whole new section of The Book online Message:

Where can I read about why hi father left the fold? I missed that one. Can someone please direct me?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:24:52 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Sarupanand HAD female mahatmas! Message:

First mention of Bais (female mahatmas) can be found in the 84-88 part. Sarupanand definitely had female mahatmas. That's not why daddy Rawat left the fold .... Prempal ? Comments ? [ Sarupanand's female mahatmas ]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:03:17 (EDT) From: Mili Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Are you really getting paid for this? Message:

..by the French Inquisition, or whomever? Is it true?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:04:54 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Mili Subject: where is you appreciation? Message:

When I was premie I loved JM's site. It was the only place to get real satsang. Don't pretend you don't drool over the pretty pictures. :>)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:46:00 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mili Subject: Are you jealous? Money better/Grace? Message:

What's your problem? I'm sure you've printed and read it religiously. Right?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:06:17 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Are you jealous? Money better/Grace? Message:

What's your problem? I'm sure you've printed and read it religiously. Right? --- You bet he has !!!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:09:35 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Mili Subject: Fuck off Millie... Message:

Now GET LOST, you sarcastic fool! Get the hell outa here you guru, footkisser. You are not a guest anymore. You are not welcome here. Leave my friend Jean-Michel alone! You don't belong here, go back to LG or your egocentric website(s). And DON'T WRITE BACK TO ME, you fool.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:01:02 (EDT) From: Hope this is OK Email: None To: All Subject: Thought it was very appropriate for 12/9/01 Message:

Vol. 2 - Issue 183 - Sept. 12, 2001 Daily Edition A profound blessing Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Anaheim, California, 30th January 1993   In spite of their actions, there is divinity in each human being. We don't believe it, but we are blessed. We're very fortunate, because there is a divinity within each human being. I said 'within' because the way human beings act, sometimes something in me fails to recognize them as the divine. But there is the divinity, there is a blessing - a profound blessing - in each one of you. Copyright © 2000-2001 Visions International --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Powered by List Builder Click here to change or remove your subscription

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:47:14 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Hope this is OK Subject: Divinity within. Message:

Yeah, I heard about this 'Divinity Within'. All you've got to do to experience it is poke yourself in the eye, make a regular donation, and worship some Indian geezer. Sounds great. Anth pissing in the street.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:56:56 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Hope this is OK Subject: is not OK Message:

I ditto Gerry. No guru BS here!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:23:53 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Hope this is OK Subject: Not OK no gooroo shatsang EVER!!! (NT) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:32:48 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: gerry Subject: No shitsang here... Message:

Unless it is posted for discussion or proof of what he said that he denies, etc.....

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:20:21 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: The greatest love Message:

The 220 or so fire-fighters who entered the World Trade Centre after the initial plane crashes and before the buildings collapsed, were given the last rites by a priest as they entered the buildings. Both the priest and the fire-fighters knew that they were walking into almost certain death but they were trying to save the lives of those inside the buildings. As they climbed the stairwells, carrying the heavy fire-fighting equipment, they were cheered and applauded by the office workers who were coming down the stairs, fleeing the burning building. All of those 220 fire-fighters died when the buildings collapsed. I suspect the priest died too.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:34:50 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: The greatest love Message:

I heard that, too. Firefighters are among the least appreciated rescue workers. One of my brothers-in-law has been one in CT for 30 years. They virtually live together because of the type of shifts they have, and they have a bond which is built out of the necessity to be able to work together because of the constant danger of their jobs . Firefighters risk their lives everyday. My b-inlaw has been awarded many citations for bravery for saving lives. When we lived in CT, a fire broke out during the night down the street. We were living in an old Italian neighborhood in a third floor flat when we hear the engines going by. Tom and I walked up the street and saw a man on a ladder to the third floor of the buring house carrying children down to safety. I later found out is my sister's husband. His heart is very heavy about those particular losses. Around the country cities are assessing how many firefighters they can release to go to NYC to help. These guys are fully aware of the danger they are traveling to. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:23:05 (EDT) From: The Qur'an Email: None To: All Subject: You shall not kill any person Message:

'You shall not kill any person - for God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder, he will be helped.' (17:33) There it is folks. Just in case you were wondering. Posted by JohnT [ The Noble Qur'an ]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:09:04 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: The Qur'an Subject: the terrorists are in big trouble with Allah Message:

These two quotes are interesting: 002.224 'And make not Allah's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth all things'. 004.93 'If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him'. (I wonder how many Muslims, were in the World Trade Centre when it was hit by the terrorists?) Unfortunately there are verses which appear to condone acts of aggression: 008.038 'Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them). And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do'. Useful link, John - especially the index. Thanks for passing it on.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:52:11 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: The Qur'an Subject: Yup, that's in the Bible too. Message:

'Thou shall not kill', or something. But I guess nobody takes any notice, particularly when the priests are encouraging the soldiers to fight. Ugh the Arrgh.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:18:32 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: The Qur'an Subject: Here's another one Message:

'Whoever kills a soul, unless for a soul, or for corruption done in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one, it is as if he had saved mankind entirely' [Qur'an 5:32]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:44:03 (EDT) From: Now this Allah Email: None To: The Qur'an Subject: is one smart dude Message:

he knew to add an addendum to Thou Shalt not Kill

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:17:01 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: All Subject: to yelnaws Message:

You're either a dickhead or a boofhead. you keep crying for help, claming you have a problem with maharaji, don't know how to use computers and live in Britan. Well I don't belive you. You have managed to get to this forum, you can use hotmail and your English sucks. People have asked you to write here what your problem was, but you keep fucking around and posting the same crap. are you collecting exs phone numbers and e-mails. Your name sucks too. So to give you the benefit of the doubt, why don't you tell everyone what your problem is, who you are and what it that that you want, otherwise fuck off.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:50:56 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: salam Subject: Please, read your mail NT Message:

y

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:03:00 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Silvia.... Message:

I don't know what this person said in the email to you. Why don't you post it? Have you received emails back? I'm concerned for you and you may be wasting your time. My intuition is telling me something is wrong here. Be careful.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 07:01:28 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: salam Subject: probly lives in Swanlea Message:

just an obvious guess

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:13:33 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: salam Subject: New strategy Message:

I've also recently received a couple of emails from a person, obviously a premie, playing nutcase, in order to draw some info from me, threaten me a bit etc. Quite stupid tactic. A bit too transparent.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:20:09 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: New strategy Message:

And I got a letter from Limoges in France asking about my restaurant but the letter was delivered to my home address which puzzled me.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:18:44 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Here's an excerpt of his emails Message:

I won't post the rest and my answers. +++++++++++ Respected sir, Thanks for calling; I was not able to call you on 11.sep 2001, as I was busy in my camp {hepatitis B} vaccination. And when I came back I come to know about the disasters in U.S.A. it was real bad thing happened. Sir, I want to point on the name you used in your 'Parody, sir if you can ply change the name from sarup to shree swaroopananad ji, this is all we want. If it's possible I will be highly obliged. Sir I am writing the first incident when I went to divine light mission Once I got the mail from your divine light mission from New Delhi meharulli. To come and visit there. I went with my records of this linage. when I reached there I saw massive crowd over there it was just like a fair rich ones very entering from another gate the poor from another. There were many foreigners sitting there in tents just like they sit in sand near pool or sea. Peoples looking at them I was then taken to head p.r.o he then taken me to some another p.r.o (publicity} I was taken in a hall with many young girls an boys with somebody senior on there heads. This was called the reception for vip respected sir sorry for any thing if I write wrong or bad abut the mission pls sorry. I was introduced to a person some Mr. sigh from Delhi,that he will take care of you and your brother (my younger brother companied me} . I asked him that I want to meet Mr. Rawat. He told me that he is resting, as there is a program in the evening we can meet him after lunch. I said ok. Then they told us to have a walk around. we said yes. When I left the room I saw 2 3 Personsnkeeping an eye on me. I started asking pepls.abt mission they were in such mood as they think they were in Paris saying look the English peoples they have come all the way to met our guru. then I asked do u worship your guru they said yes then I asked many persons abt shree guru maharaja ,they just said we have only heard his name as he was the real grand father of Mr. vital. As in there views Hans raj Hans was his son. )(of shree guru maharaja ji}. When the saw me talking to peoples I was b risked away by security. He asked rudely what u were asking for. I said I just want to know that u people worship guru maharaja ji having his swaroops and doing aarti.every body was shocked .he immdly.teleohone to mr vital he told them that he is not interested to meet me. As he is busy then every body asked for shree guru maharaji ji.i asked from them they showed nil. I got angery there as you r doing wrong thing as Mr. vital is no one to say that he is the grand son of shree guru maharaja ji as he was not even married and then he started aruments some body came with my brother to cool me down. I was taken to another room there were all girls Indian and foreigners I was asked to stay there for some time for relaxation we sat there . there I saw some bad girls looking at us like with no good intentions. from there I was taken to the t.v.room.there they switched on the tv running the sat sang of Mr. vital. I started laughing at his one comment that heaven is here only in this world as he believes he can do anything to be in heaven a people say that there is a heaven after death who will come after death with me to get me heaven what is the use of heaven after death? We said good bye to them and walked of. this was the high tech asharam and guru I visted.(he was wearing a 3 pic suit with matching tie) Sorry if I hurt you. Pls see the link vision in our site u will see after shree guru maharaji no one has became his sucssers.all the mahatmas in this linage say that don't worship us but to worship shree guru maharaja ji and dadaguru . Can u be live shree guru maharaji has meditated for 13 years without food &water only on eating leaves of neem and drinking water boiled of neem leaves in agara up India.there is a holy fire still flaming sending smoke from 110 years who on earth has the right to be his sucssers and abt mr prem pal rawat forget it Sir if you have any quarries pls ask Thanks Skdewan. 12.9.2001 ++++++++++++

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:43:08 (EDT) From: don p. Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Here's an excerpt of his emails Message:

i don't think this guy is a prempal premie, i presume he is someone from the advait mat or nangli sahib lineage

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:59:20 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: don p. Subject: I think he's a troll... Message:

The syntax of his accent, misspelling, and poor grammar are inconsistent within his email to J-M. Ironic the most responsive people here were those targeted by CAC. I read it carefully and the accent, language is also inconsistent with his many postings for help. Whether or not it's a premie troll or whoever, be careful folks. EV is watching. We must not let our guards down because of the NYC event. EV/Maharaji doesn't care about that stuff, and they aren't going to pause in their efforts because of it. It's all well and good to try to be kind and helpful, but everyone in the world who posts here acting crazy and desperate is not our responsibility. We are not an emergency psych ward. We cannot be so bold as to think we can save people's lives either. I reiterate what I posted in a thread below. If someone comes here and is suicidal, we must impress upon that person to seek immediate help. This is cyberspace. I've been trained to know what to do in situations like this in the real world. I used to work on a sexual assault hotline. The first response to someone with any suicidal ideations (suicidal thoughts) or severe psychological trauma is to call 911 or where I live, the emergency psych. hotline for them. Untrained people, even hotline workers are not capable of assessing such an individual and it is dangerous to the person seeking help, if they are legitimate. How can we do this in cyberspace? We can't. My gut tells me that we're being spammed. Tread carefully with this one... Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:18:09 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: All Subject: After the terror: silence (OT) Message:

The part of San Francisco that I live in is called the Sunset. It starts on the western slopes of the ridge of mountains that runs down the city's spinal cord and descends to the Pacific Ocean. Here is the four-mile long Ocean Beach. That's where I live. Every night the sound of the surf lulls me to sleep and every morning screeching seagulls wake me up. For three or fours months every summer a heavy layer of fog moves in from the ocean and blankets the area. The mournful sounds of the deep bass foghorn on the Golden Gate Bridge and the tenor horn on the lighthouse (marking a dangerous shoal further out to sea) are carried for miles in the soft blanket of fog. (The central mountains prevent the fog from blanketing the eastern half of the city and that is where all the action is, downtown, the Wall Street of the west, the expensive condos and mansions - except for the southeastern corner, the Mission district, which is populated mostly by Hispanics but also has lots of young people drawn here by the now floundering dotcom boom.) The Sunset used to be the cheapest neigborhood in SF because no one wanted to live in what is known as the ''fog belt.'' It was built on sand dunes during and after WW11 for the working class and returning soldiers. The houses are small identical two story row-houses (which originally sold for $5,000 and now cost $400,000.) Supposedly they inspired the song with the line ''ticky-tacky houses.'' But everyday in summer between 8 and 9pm when the sun is just about to set, the fog dissolves and we are treated to breath-taking sunsets over the Pacific Ocean. That is the ideal time to take the dogs for a walk along the beach. This is not a southern California beach. It is usually cold and windy and the surf is heavy and dangerous and icy. It becomes very chilly as soon as the sun sets and you can imagine it rising in Japan. This is where the planes from Japan, China, Hawaii and Alaska begin their descent to the airport 13 miles to the south-east. The planes are still high enough that the noise is not overwhleming but, when I first moved here, they were noticeable. After a while you get used to it and stop noticing - except when they are not there. Yesterday afternoon I heard the roar of a plane that I thought was coming in too low. Later I heard that it was the last plane to land in the USA since the attack. It was a plane from Thailand and the roar was because it was being escorted by a squadron of F16s to make sure it did not suddenly crash into the downtown skyscrapers. Since then the only planes are so high up you can hardly hear them. These are military planes patrolling the skies. The silence is shocking. The last time we had that silence was after the 89 quake when the airport was damaged and closed for days afterwards. But the people are also subdued. When I first came to the US I hated how loud and extroverted Americans were. They talked loudly in public and often shouted from one side of the street to another. Girls sometimes screamed in glee and the boys would whoop and holler. Now I miss their exuberance. After the quake we were all pulled together as a community and talked to total strangers and helped each other much as New Yorkers are doing now. But there is no local disaster to bring us together in this city. People are quiet and serious. Midwesterners like to think of New Yorkers as being nasty, rude, selfish people but anyone who has been there will tell you that, although they may be brusque and terse, they are usually friendly and helpful. (I forget which 19th century British cuntess came here and wrote a book about her trip to the US but she said that there were more nice people per square mile here than anywhere in Europe.) This is the first time that the mainland US has been attacked from the air by foreign enemies. Pearl Harbor so shocked the US that it finally drew them into WW11 but that was in Hawaii three thousand miles away. The Oklahoma bombing was done by one of our own nuts. European civilians were bombed in WW11 but we were not and this was like our first air-raid where planes were used as bombs. Bombs loaded full of innocent civilians. The video footage was almost unreal, like bad special effects in a disaster movie. The whole attack was so surreal that we have been stunned into silence. Except for the politicians braying about declaring war. On whom? Where? This Jihad is being fought by mostly young testosterone and religion crazed men stirred into suicidal hatred by irresponsible priests and politicians. In the Gulf War we knew who and where the enemy was. How do you bomb little secret groups of fanatics scattered throughout the Arab world? In the movie 15 Days (about the Cuban missile crisis) Kennedy bemoans the fact that the generals and politicians want to solve the crisis using outdated military methods. They're doing it again - sounding the trumpets of war. Meantime the rest of us are numb and in mourning, silent.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:46:55 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: America's agony Message:

How do you bomb little secret groups of fanatics scattered throughout the Arab world? If the assault was planned thousands of miles away, then it would have been a very complex and expensive operation, that took years to plan. And if an obvious suspect 'rogue' state were involved in the planning and preparation it is likely that Federal signals intelligence and allied trades would have had wind of the attack. On the other hand, if it were planned and trained for by people who are an intrinsic part of American society, it could have been rather more opportunist. Local knowledge would have been far more detailed -- no need for reconnaisance parties and reports back to a foreign handler with all the difficulties that would entail. And the Federal intelligence networks would have been far less likely to pick up rumours or reports of the plans. The lack of forewarning and the complexity of the operation point to the latter, and I would imagine the perpetrators were not so much lead by ideology as a deep sense of personal grievance and hurt, perhaps occasioned by the loss of loved ones. Mass murder can be driven by ideology, but it seems suicide bombers tend to have lost loved ones in violent circumstances, yet cannot find justice through the law. I'm sorry Pat, but America's agony may be just beginning.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:37:17 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Re: America's agony Message:

I know, John. And it did help not matters that Bush snubbed last week's racism conference in South Africa. The least they could have done was to debate the Arabs' claim that Zionism equals racism. I know that it is not as simplistic as that but that is how the Arabs perceive it and this is one of the issues that is not being addressed honestly. Most educated Americans' real agony is the agony of being liberal and seeing all sides and having to watch incompetent and sly politicians weasel around the truth and see the media stir up the hoi-polloi.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:52:25 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: After the terror: silence (OT) Message:

Pat: You're one eloquent dude, man. I and the former Drug Czar and Secretary of Education William Bennett are of one mind. I can't find a single point of disagreement with him, on anything. We have no obligation whatsoever to bring anyone to trial, not moral, not legal, not anything. The Declaration of War, which Congress is about to pass, may be against the Taliban or Bin Laden or Afghanistan... but I think it ought to be against terrorism in general, and all nations and entities that support terrorism in particular. If that includes China, Syria, Jordan (unlikely), or Egypt then sobeit. We might, for the sake of prudence, give some sort of 'fair warning' but that's a political consideration. That answers 'who' and 'where.' I was mistaken in advocating immediate action. I can see now the value in the slow, deliberative, inexorable rise of the hammer... not only as a moral inspiration, but in terms of the awe it must inspire in those who surely feel we are a nation of hot air. The pictures of morning rather than fear, and of deliberation rather than confusion, must be unsettling and in it's way as shocking as the images we've witnessed ourselves. Scale? Resources? Think about the ramp-up after Pearl Harbor where it took us 55 days to get to the Marshall Islands. It will not take that long to arrive in Kabul... but the overall struggle may actually be longer than WWII, and more bitter, and potentially more costly. The prize? A union of law and moral philosophy into one world government with no homeless outcasts, because that's the only thing that will quell the moral dilemmas we feel about the justice of this war and war in general. War, by it's very nature, is unjust. But war is also the state of anarchy that leaves sovereign nations in charge of their own behavior toward other nations, and safe harbors for 'Hume's Horror.' But to declare *that* as the objective now would lead to WWIII at once, so I'm willing to accept the legalisms proposed in the UN concerning the relinquishment of national sovereignty by any entity that supports or aids acts like the suicide bombing of the WTC. It's enough, in light of the alternative, to get us past the hump. Commentators are fond of saying that the world is no longer the way it was before that WTC sank in a dirgelike reverse parody of the launch of Apollo. But in reality the world will be unrecognizable in 10 years. Let's talk, because I really have no idea how to do any more than take the first step. Your eloquence is welcome, and necessary. I know you hate this, or at least I'm pretty sure. But I also think an irresistable series of events has been set in motion... and it's not evil in the long run. The alternatives are horrendous and unthinkable, but not out of the question. Be careful of what you advocate. We're more vulnerable than you think... and the next goad will be far far far worse. I don't sleep well, because I see no way out. Do you? Really? --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:04:30 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Settling the world affairs Message:

Well I love settling the world's affairs too, Scott. From the age of 17 till I was 21 I thought I could change the world by politics and ended up in jail instead. My friends and I sat up all night settling the world's affairs and inspiring each other to defy the apartheid nazis. That was 1964 and apartheid did not fall until 30 years later. Then I thought M and K could change the world and bring world peace through universal love. Well we've seen how far THAT got. Now I realize the limitations of my political power - it's limited mostly to friends and customers. If I am kind to them they will in turn be kind to others - hopefully. But I also still believe in talking - in ''settling the world's affairs.'' Speaking out, calling a spade a spade eventually works. What the political (and demagogic) elements of radical Muslims want is national sovereignty - to be free of the US oil game being played out at their expense. The theocrats want something slightly diffrent but their hatred of the US is shared by the political wing who listen to the crazy theocratic priests because it inspires them and fires up their indignation. The religious and political wings both despise American imperialism. They feel that the US is cynically using the Middle East for oil and is bankrolling a puppet state (Israel) as a means of destabilizing the area and keeping a foot in the door. To the Islamic radicals it appears that the US is racist and despises them and does not want them to control the oil independently because they hold Arabs in such contempt. But the US also fears total Arab control of the oil lest the nutty priests take power. The Muslim radicals think a lot like the Africans did in South Africa, and, like the anti-apartheid movement, Islamic fundamentalism is heavily tainted with Marxism. In Israel the Palestinians live under a regime which closely resembles apartheid South Africa. The Israelis, of course, are seen in much the same light as the Afrikaners were by the Africans - despised nazi thugs. Some of the more educated Arabs realize that the Israelis are being used as policemen in much the same way as the Brits (in the form of the fourth largest corporation in the world, the British based Anglo-American company) cynically used the Afrikaners to protect their mining interests from communism by exploiting the Afrikaners' racism. Only when the Middle east is looked at honestly and people start calling a spade a spade and realizing that there is a lot of shennigans taking place, will the problem be solved. The state of Israel must adapt or die (just as the Europeans in South Africa had to.) 74% of Israelis are immigrants and don't really belong there. They are being as silly and childish (sorry Jethro - I know you will not like me to say this) as the Afrikaners who wished to live separately in their own sovereign Boerestaat. The Afrikaners also thought of themselves as the chosen people just like the Israelis do. No one is all right or all wrong. Each has their reasons for being the way they are. But facts are facts and the present state of affairs in the Middle East is creating Muslim radicals just as apartheid created Mandela. Remember he was imprisoned for 27 years because he was found guilty of terrorism and found with guns, ammo and bombs. The original Zionists also once were regarded as terrorists. Will it take 30 years to fix the Middle East? We don't have that much time. These terrorists are much better equipped than Mandela ever was and can do a lot more damage. It's time to call a spade a spade and then hope that you'll be heard sooner than 30 years hence. But Bush and his oily friends have so much might and so little farsightedness. I personally am speaking out in favor of recalling Bush. He was a traitor to all that America stands for by accepting the unconstitutional decision of the Supreme Court which put him in power. As long as he sits in the White House there will probably be a risk of more terrorism against what is regarded by the Muslim radicals as the American oil oligarchy. It stinks but I don't lose any sleep over it, Scott, as I am powerless other than to do my bit through the little bit of democratic say-so that I have. If I can't work to get rid of Bush at least I can work to make sure that he is so ridiculed that he will not be re-elected or once again be enthroned unconstitutionally by the judicial branch. These attacks were a direct result of Bush's criminal usurpation of the Presidency.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:51:33 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Settling the world affairs Message:

Dang Pat! That was a great explanation. Yesterday, on the tv, a lady who has studied these guys since '83, says unless these guys are looked at realistically, the US will never get what's going on. They are fanatics but they aren't crazy. They are well organized and have access to better electronic doo dads than the US because of whosey what's it's money. She also went on the say these guys, mostly 20-22 years old feel hopeless and helpless, especially the educated one. There's nothing for them. The this guy uses them in his quest to even the score for the US defiling Muslim soil. She was quite informed. Don't forget Big Daddy was head of the c i of a for years and years. Now you know how his son was able to snag the highest office.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:21:03 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: Settling the world affairs Message:

Hi btdt, I was watching CBS last night and Dan Rather interviewed a retired CIA operative who worked extensively in Afghanstan. He knew Bin Ladin during the war there. He said that Laden isn't the all-powerful terrorist as he is proported to be. He was unable to say some things, but he explained that he doesn't think that Bin Ladin is responsible. Interesting interview. When asked who he thought was responsible, the guy (sorry didn't catch his name) couldn't say, although he looked tempted to divulge. He also expressed that the media is giving Laden too much status and power. He said that this attack was far beyond Laden's capabilities. It was an interesting slant given the assumptions which the US and media have been making.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:39:52 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: thanks Cynthia Message:

Darn, I wish I would have seen that one. Oh, I absolutely agree that there is much we are not privy too. The people that are would dare not go against daddy bush and baby bush. I found it interesting that this woman, who I spoke of, had some intelligent things to say. I haven't heard that many women, except newscasters, on the air during all this.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:41:47 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: for fucks sake scott !! Message:

Britain and Europe have suffered terrorist attacks for decades. Same in the middle east. It happens to America ONCE in its history. Your solution? 'all nations ...if that includes China, Syria, Jordan, or egypt then so be it '. For fucks sake man lets have a fucking big world war. Lets kill millions. Lets let it escalate.Lets accuse the Pakistanis (theyve got nukes) then India can have their war too. Lets not forget the Russians .....bring them on board ......they hate muslims too. Let's go for it .....Bring back the crusades but this time let's make it global!!!!! Yipeeeeee lets nuke every fucker !!!!!!! OR ......let's fight terrosits calmly, carefully, precisely, with immense force whentruly appropriate but in such a selective way that doesn't involve 'declaring war ' on any fucker we don't like or agree with. .......God help us from ung ho America when it thinks God is on its side.......... Cheers Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:15:10 (EDT) From: Katie from cyberspace Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Dermot and all Message:

Hey Dermot - First, as Jerry said, there have also been terrorist attacks in the US for decades - some home-grown terrorists, and some from other countries. I think you need to understand though, that all Americans are not trigger-happy blind-eyed patriots. Part of the reason I believe that little retaliation was taken when the attacks on the US embassies in Africa and the attack on the USS Cole occurred is that most Americans do NOT want another Viet Nam. This attitude is probably changing now, however. There are a lot of people in the US who do not want a war (me included) but I think those people are not being realistic if they think that the perpetrators of this event can be stopped by shooting off a few missles or by forgiving and forgetting. I'm just trying to be realistic. I think there will be a war, but it won't be World War III, and it will be more like what you said: let's fight terrosits calmly, carefully, precisely, with immense force whentruly appropriate but in such a selective way that doesn't involve 'declaring war ' on any fucker we don't like or agree with. I have to say that I've been really depressed by the anti-American sentiment I've seen on this forum. People in the US are not all Bush, who I dislike, and who is obviously WAY over his head in this situation - thank god he has decent advisors around him. The people who were killed in the Pentagon were not all warmongers - and the people who were killed in the World Trade Center were not all fat cat rich people who deserved to die. It makes me sad when I hear people from other countries abstracting the situation to ideology - that's what caused this and other terrorist attacks in the first place. And if anyone here thinks the people in the US 'deserved' this, that reminds me of the premies who said the ex-premies 'deserved' the CAC site. Not addressing this to you, Dermot, at all - your post just triggered it, and I wanted to say a few things before I disappear back into cyberspace. Love, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:15:02 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Katie from cyberspace Subject: Little retaliation. Message:

Hi Kate, After the bombing of the two embassies in Africa, Clinton launched about 35 Cruise missiles at Afghanistan in retaliation. There are at least two ways of trying to understand why the Pentagon and Trade Centre were attacked. One is the line Tony Blair was giving on TV- this is a war of 'Good versus Evil', a sort of Western jihad. The other is to try and understand the motivation of the hijackers. I've taken the second approach. I don't in any way support or condone or sympathise with the people who did it. I simply want to understand what motivates them. If you find out why things like this happen, then you may have a way to prevent them happening again. If you don't take care of the cause, there's a good chance it will keep happening. I don't think anyone deserves to go to work and get blown up Katie. It is a terrible thing. But when I saw the Palestinians and Iraqis celebrating on TV, it wasn't too hard to understand why. It's not enough to simply say, 'It's a terrible. Shoot the bastards.' The world is a bit more complex than 'good guys' versus 'bad guys'. I grew up at the time of the Civil Rights movement and the Vietnam protest movement. I'm a big critic of US foreign policy, but like I said somewhere below, I have no problem at all with Americans. Sure you have your wierd side, but so does every nation. Slaughtering civilians is not a new thing. In World War 2 it was part of the Allied policy to kill German, and later Japanese civilians. It is a terrible quality of human beings that we can do this to each other. It's being reported that 300-500 of the dead in the Trade Centre were British. This is also the biggest terrorist act against the UK. Anth, citizen of Planet Earth.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:37:08 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Katie from cyberspace Subject: I don't see any anti-American sentiment here Message:

Hi Katie Nice to hear from you again. I see a lot of anti Bush/ military complex etc sentiment here. This is because America is the only superpower so what the US govt does or plans to do has consequences for us all not just those of you who vote (and then get the guy with less votes:) ) There's also a lot of anti-Blair and Brit govt here. I draw a clear line between the ships of state and the passengers in the ships:) I'm not in the slightest way anti-American people per se neither am I anti-anyone per se. I really don't trust the Bush Govt though and the terrible tragedy of the recent terrorist strikes is a real opportunity for crazed hawks to take centre stage and play at war , war, war. Yep, I was actually aware of the home-grown US terroist activity. I meant international terrorists striking the USA but even there I'm probably incorrect as the WTC was a target once before. As for anyone thinking the USA 'deserved' it.....hey Katie, I don't think anyone here thinks or feels that.No person or country deserves such a thing. Also the victims, as I've pointed out, are not just American. Latest estimates here are up to 500 Brit deaths as well as other countries citizens yet to be determined. Anyway , as always, nice to hear from ya katie....from the beyond:) Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:46:15 (EDT) From: Katie from cyberspace Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: I don't see any anti-American sentiment here Message:

Hi Dermot - Yeah, I agree that a lot of those military guys want to 'play war'. Both Brian and I grew up in military families, and so I have a respect for the military and also a distaste for those military people who are only happy when they are at war (and they usually aren't those on the front lines.) I think that one thing you may not understand is that the legacy of VietNam hangs very heavily over people here in the US - including the hawk politicians - and nobody, no matter how hawk-like - wants to get involved in an endless war that is unwinnable, as in Vietnam. People may be angry now, but when it comes to sending their sons and daughters to die (which will happen in any large-scale conflict), there's going to be a re-assessment. All my opinion, of course - and I could be wrong. Anth's and JohnT's posts really depressed me the other day - I know there is horrible stuff that happens all over the world, but that doesn't make this any less awful. It helps that we've gotten a lot of e-mail from our friends in Britain expressing shock and condolences - that has made me feel better. Love, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 14:03:49 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Katie from cyberspace Subject: Hey Katie. Message:

Don't let me depress you. I thought everybody knew that most of what I say is bullshit anyway. Anth, sorry.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:28:33 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Katie from cyberspace Subject: Why? Message:

There is a great deal of talk in America about what happened and how, but little talk of why. It should be pretty clear that there are many people in the world who do regard America (and to a lesser extent, Britain) as The Enemy. Why has America made so many enemies, especially among Muslims, more especially among Arabs? Maybe your friends can tell you is why that is the case. You don't have to listen, but neither Anth nor myself deserves to be singled out for castigation because we try to explain why so many people from both our countries got killed on Tuesday. Brits lost friends, family and colleagues too you know. Some of us want to know why, and are prepared to discuss it. So what's your theory?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:30:14 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: for fucks sake scott !! Message:

We've had terrorist attacks before, Dermot. This is the first time we've lost an estimated 20,000 lives in one fell swoop on our own shores. This IS war. Maybe you're willing to sit on your laurels for the next strike. We're not. Terrorism has to end. Something's got to be done about it. Maybe things are going to go from bad to worse in the fight against it, but you know how us Hollywood types can be. It's all just one big movie to us.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 14:18:22 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jerry Subject: What's a terrorist Jerry? Message:

We've had terrorist attacks before, Dermot. This is the first time we've lost an estimated 20,000 lives in one fell swoop on our own shores. This IS war. Maybe you're willing to sit on your laurels for the next strike. We're not. Terrorism has to end. Something's got to be done about it. Maybe things are going to go from bad to worse in the fight against it, but you know how us Hollywood types can be. It's all just one big movie to us. --- OK. The people who flew the jets into New York and Washington were terrorists. It seems most of them came from Canada. Is it OK to send Cruise missiles into the Moslem communities of Toronto? It seems their leader is a Saudi who lives in Afghanistan. Is it OK to blast those places with Cruise missiles? What about Hezbollah? Can we fire off missiles at the Palestinians too? After all they were dancing for joy, I saw them on TV (well about 30 of them). And what about Bagdhad? Fuck it, fire off a few at them too. After all, it's retaliation. That's nothing like terrorism is it? They are evil, we are good. Is it something like this? Anyone else we feel like nuking while we're at it? What about the Pakistani community in Leeds, England. They were rioting a few weeks ago. They're Moslem. They're not white. Fuck, fire off one at Chapeltown too. Anth, bang bang bang.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:20:18 (EDT) From: Ddermot Email: None To: Jerry Subject: 'something's got to be done' Message:

Agreed. So what to do? Do as Scott T and the politician he cited, suggests? Declare war willy- nilly, left, right and centre? Make the problem a thousand times worse? Assuming these nation states would be scattered around the various regions of the world what you would, in fact, be advocating is a global conflict that would inevitably escalate beyond control. Most likely the casualties would run into the hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions. The vast majority of course would be innocent bystanders including thousands upon thousands of children. Not only that., the infrastructure of hundreds of world cities would be devastated. The pollution of the planet would be accelerated in leaps and bounds in a matter of weeks or months. And with Bush Pentagon Inc at the helm , most likely nuclear, chemical or biological weapons would be introduced for good measure. All of this to counter a few hundred or at the most a few thousand terrorists. Maybe a lot less than that in reality. This is picking up the proverbial sledgehammer to crack the proverbial nut. In my opinion, a thoughtless, mindless purely emotional response. Given that we are all in this together (as I posted yesterday, the Brit casualties run into the hundreds so one could probably assume Other Euro, S.American etc casualties would in total perhaps be in the thousands. Yes, the vast majority obviously American and obviously the infrastructure damage wholly American) and given that the problem of terrorism is a global problem, do you really think the gung - ho ' let's go at 'em ' approach is really the wisest and best approach? What about pooling all the resources of all the allies global, regional and local intelligence gathering to an extent that hasn't been tired before? What about applying political, diplomatic and economic pressure on any states harbouring terrorists, to an extent that hasn't been tried before? What about even using globally agreed specially commissioned special services snatch squads acting on information provided by cleverly placed informants? Last but definitely not least, how about the global community really and truly addressing the root causes of the problems of this world instead of a 'might is right', ' fuck the starving poor and powerless' etc approach to everything? It is generally accepted by political and military analysts that , for example, Iran and Libya have genuinely softened their approach to state sponsored terrorism as a result of global pressure. Imagine the results if, like I suggest, that pressure was accentuated on all such states as never before. With such concerted effort and global co-ordination I'm pretty sure the terrorists could to a great extent be rooted out or at least muted so that they no longer pose a huge global threat. Admittedly they possess a lot of advantages over conventional military forces. Anonymity, subterfuge…..a bite bigger than their bark so to speak…….but still a credible , effective defence could be set up without resorting nation-state war . You see, I think the problem with the gung-ho approach is like I've already stated. It would inevitably exasperate the problem a thousand fold A subtler , intelligent yet equally determined approach would pretty much eliminate the problem .Not completely , I suppose. There will probably always some cell or other fighting for some cause or other even without a state to sponsor them. So I'd advocate BRAINS with BACK UP BRAWN ONLY WHEN NEEDED as opposed to a BRAWN with START USING THE BRAIN WHEN IT'S TOO LATE approach ! ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; To digress slightly……the guard outside Buck Palace played the 'Star spangled banner' to a load of yank tourists today and a very emotional time was had by all. They're all stranded here due to the flight cancellations. The gesture of solidarity was much appreciated. Cheers Dermot. .

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:38:02 (EDT) From: Katie from cyberspace Email: None To: Ddermot Subject: Re: 'something's got to be done' Message:

It's not going to be like you fear, Dermot - more like what you project as a solution. That's my opinion, but I think I'm right. Sure there are people in the US like William Bennett and Orrin Hatch (neither of who I can stand - I believe they are the epitome of 'old men sending young men to die' and I believe Scott is thinking way too abstractly when he agrees with William Bennett) advocating all out retaliation on any countries that 'harbors terrorists', but I don't think that will occur. I agree that Bush doesn't know what the hell he's doing (he's never been in combat and has no idea what he's sending people into), but I don't think he's gonna be in charge here - I don't think he's in charge NOW (thank god). I have walked away from the television every time he is on because he is so obviously incompetent. I may not agree with Colin Powell, who is obviously going to have great influence on Bush in this matter, but I don't think he is a fanatic warmonger - he knows the costs personally, and I believe he is a good diplomat as well. JMHO, as always, and I could be really wrong. love, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:20:31 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Katie from cyberspace Subject: Well let's hope so Katie Message:

and I'm sure there are stacks of shrewd and astute analysts to advise Dubya. The thing is , it all depends on how things pan out. If there are more attacks on America in the next few days/weeks/months then I'm afraid that would be it as far as meausured approaches go. Also, once a formal declaration of war is declared (depending on how many countries declared against and who they are etc) then things will just take a momentum of their own.Then I'm afraid your country would use its overwhelming force overwhelmingly !! I think this because America was prepared to cover every square inch of Vitnam with napalm/agent orange etc (I really like and admire that lil ole country Vietnam.....so brave and determined .....and chased out the French then the Americans)and America was prepared to drop two nuclear bombs. These are just facts. Anyway, let's all hope not eh? hahah your comments on Bush made me laugh. It's as if he's just playing at being president isn't it? All the trappings, his macho walk, his 'make no mistake about its', hahahah ....I'm also convinced he flunked his degree (where was it? Harvard or Yale?)but Daddy pulled a few strings :) Anyway, got to log off now ....got some work to do. OH, I meant to use the word 'exacerbate' not 'exasperate ' in one of my posts there duhhhhh !! Just one of my Bushisms. Byeeee Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:03:12 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jerry Subject: How can it be 'war'? Message:

Unless the word has changed its meaning, I don't see how the present situation can be considered a 'war', scale of casualties notwithstanding. The linked article outlines some of the dangers and difficulties of applying that term. [ HItchens in the Guardian ]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:33:40 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: How can it be 'war'? Message:

Is it war because it as such it voids insurance claims as well as legitimising other more sinister intents ?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:15:46 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: I wish I were there now Message:

You describe the Sunset district so well, when I lived on Moraga St. just around the corner from where you now live, that is just the way I remember it. Those fog soaked summer days and the beautiful sunsets each evening. As I recall this time of the year, September through October is the loveliest of all. I had the benefit of those great prices and rents at what they were then back in the sixties. What a magical time it was in my life in one of the most enchanting places in the world to live. I guess it is true when Tony Bennett say's 'I left my heart in San Francisco' I may just show up for dinner one evening at your restaurant Pat, I am not that far away and you are such a fine chef. It would be worth the trip. I am glad you are feeling better, it has been such a troubling time, say Hello to Chuck and Andy for me, cuddle up together with the dogs and make the world go away for a while. I hope to see you soon,

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:11:53 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: I wish you were here now Message:

Our Indian summer has not started yet. Today was so foggy that it was like a thick drizzle. Soon it will be blue skies and warm weather just when everyone else starts to shiver. The winters are beautiful. Yes, please come but you won't want to bunk up in our old beach cottage with five smelly dogs and three adult slobs.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:46:05 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: I wish you were here now Message:

No Pat I would never impose on you in that way, You know we like to stay downtown in the fisherman's wharf area, and there is parking at the hotel which is a rare commodity there. I will make sure to book ahead to ensure reservations are available, no surprises, I am your customer as well as a good friend. I was so sorry you were closed the last time we were there.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:44:35 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: hopefully Message:

Hopefully you can come not only when I am open to feed you but also on one of my days off so we can have a real visit. Last time was too short and too many people to talk to.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:15:22 (EDT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: :: nice post, Pat :: [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:12:52 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: After the terror, well, Ive been dancing. Message:

Hi Pat, good post. I have been a bit ahem, expressive today. sparking off wildly in conversations and I finally hunted down a copy of REM singing -shiny happy people- and listened to it a bunch of times and dancing wildly in some sufi style blank out the world and find the joy dance.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:17:21 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: bill Subject: So that's the answer, Bill Message:

Maybe I got blue because I listened to the Carpenters on Sunday for the first time in years. Yes, I know that's a terrible confession to make but I'm an old fag and we love that stuff - sometimes - that lovely mezzo of the doomed Karen, perfect pitch, not one wrong note and so wistful and haunting and hinting at tragedy to come.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:34:48 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: bill Subject: That's so like you, Bill...:;) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:10:15 (EDT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: :: yeah, it really is :: [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:14:34 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: All Subject: MAHARAJI TEAChINGS sickens people's minds Message:

Maharaji's teachings do not empower people, but the opposite. He makes people weak and dependant of him. Needy. Weak and sad. I went to see a premie friend today and the guy is at 12 p.m. drinking vodka....he looks pathetic and sick, but he feel afortunate. ?????? How can being a premie be really good? I see many people who don't have any type of involvement with any religion, or false belief and they have a normal, simple, peaceful fun life, full of interest and activities. Being a premie sucks! I became disturbed by yelnaws post and I feel very angry at maharaji, again. YOU SUCK LARD, YOU REALLY DO. When is his trip going to end? How many more people are out there suffering emotionally because of him? I'm very upset.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 03:35:39 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Sorry to disappoint you but Message:

There will be NO END to it ! The Rawat story will definitely end one day, but charlatans will be in business as long as there will be people naive enough to buy snake oil. Same thing for fanatism: there will be fanatics and extremists as long as some people will believe in simple answers (and their messengers) to solve their problems. You can't win that war. Nobody will eradicate crazyness, specially violently. One martyr will be replaced by the next one. Khomeiny has been replaced by Bin Laden. B Laden may eventually die or end up in jail, another one will sprout.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:12:32 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: clap me with the truth... Message:

Thanks JM for your words. You are so right but when it touches home is hard to 'buy', to accept, to put up with. I feel affected indirectly by having problems in my home, with my son, with his premie father and I cannot help to see who is really behind, how those problems generate themselves: The cult leader is responsible. The oppressor. The greedy guru who sits comfortably somewhere and the stupid people suffer. I am sick and tired of all. Reagards, silvia

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:02:13 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Of course the abuser IS responsible Message:

but look: everybody don't buy that sort of crap ! I've talked with people who went to various cult meetings for newbees. None of them got into it. We have to admit that for some reasons, we also had some responsibility in the process. That doesn't undermine Rawat's responsibility.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:58:43 (EDT) From: yelnaws Email: None To: All Subject: re i need help Message:

I am having a very bad expierience at the moment can somone please help me. Is M the devil or what i feel as if i have been destroyed(I have)can someone get back to me urgent . Is there a better way to talk

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:18:59 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: yelnaws Subject: I will email you Message:

Hi Yelnaws, No M is not the devil but he is evil and I am guessing that what you are going through is similar to what I went through went I left him. It is very scary. I was lucky that I had someone other expremies to talk with and I also talked to the guys here a lot about it. Hopefully somebody here will email you soon. I will email you later as soon as I get some time. Or you are welcome to email me as soon as you want. Try to spend time with some nice down to earth friend of yours or your kids or mom or anybody who will help you not to take your imagination out of proportion.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:32:29 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: How are you Pat Message:

Hope you are feeling better Love Magiclara

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:09:20 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: magiclara Subject: Much better thanks Message:

I let my imagination get too involved and began to think of the horrible deaths those innocent people had. It didn't help that I kept watching the TV. I blame my morbid mind. Thanks for asking. I tend to over-react. When the Gulf War happened I burst into tears at work and was the laughing stock for weeks after that. Just a big sissie I guess.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:31:13 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Hello Pat Message:

Perhaps you watched TV too much, so did I. it is hard not too when something like this happens. I do not think you are overeacting. What has happened to innocent people who just went to work is awful. Your collegues at work who laughed at you are the sissies for not being big enough to feel others pain. I cried too today when I saw on TV stories about individual people. They played a message one of the people who died had left on his family's answer machineto say he loved them and goodbye. When you hear of thousands killed it is sad, then you hear the stories of individuals and it becomes more real. Do not berate yourself for being caring. Love to you Magiclara

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:46:47 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: magiclara Subject: Hello Pat U.S. anthem played at Buckingam Palace Message:

For the first time ever the changing of the guard was altered and the U.S anthem played. I am not a monarchist but it was very moving. Lots of stranded americans and ex pats were there alongside Brits and the U.S.mbassador and members of the royal family.Many people were crying. People are leaving flowers outside U.S. embassy and British muslims and christians are holding services. Tomorrow is to be a day of mourning throughout europe with 3 minutes silence at 10 AM. This affects us all many Brits and other Europeans died alongside Americans in the WTC. I am crying as I write this Pat not only for those who have died or lost loved ones in this terrible tragedy but for people and animals who suffer constantly throughout the world because of human cruelty and greed. This was what brought us to the likes of Rawat who promised to end the suffering and bring peace. For me it feels bad because I once believed that peace would come. Lots of love Magiclara

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:51:23 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: magiclara Subject: World peace Message:

30 years ago we all thought that we were going to usher in the millenium of peace with M and K. Most of us were very idealistic and compassionate. I think this is why the cult is so disgusting now. It is so childish and selfish. It also is why many of us are quite angry at Rawat. He really subverted our revolution and made himself rich with our enthusiasm and seflessness. And lots of love to you too.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:43:18 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: You're not a sissy, Pat... Message:

You're a loving, sensitive, feeling human being. There is no shame in getting upset over such a loss. You didn't over-react, but you did probably watch tv too much. I hope you're okay. The country's a mess. You're good and kind. Believe it. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:46:56 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Hey there Cynthia Message:

How are you doing? Marianne

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:56:09 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Marianne Subject: I okay, thanks for asking... Message:

considering what's going on in our country, and my personal life... I'm a survivor. Always have been, always will be... And how are you, Marianne? I've been thinking about you a lot since our last conversation. I hope you're doing okay. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:05:37 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Cynthia Subject: My thoughts Message:

I was supposed to fly to LA today for an oral argument in the federal court of appeals on Thursday in one of my death penalty cases. Obviously, I couldn't fly there as there are no flights in the US still. The court postponed the oral argument late yesterday afternoon. I was greatly relieved. All of the death and destruction is so disturbing to me. My heart aches for everyone touched by these tragedies. I cannot imagine what it must have been like in the planes as they approached their targets. Press reports say one plane had elementary school kids on a field trip. Bush was pathetic last night. Looked like a deer caught in the headlights. The situation is so complex. Its roots do not point to a single, identifiable government. Even among my lefty friends, I have heard xenophobic comments. My heart is heavy. Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:51:50 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Hello Marianne Message:

It is good to see on the board, What a crazy time we have been going through lately huh. The past couple of days been a very emotionally draining for so many of us, and Bush scares the hell out of me. He is so totally ill equipped to handle a crisis of this magnitude, him and all of the other saber rattlers in Washington will undoubtably put us in an untenable position.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:02:12 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Brian Smith Subject: Hi Brian Message:

Nice to see you too. I have some photos of you from our celebration. They are quite nice. If you want to see them, I will email them. These events are so upsetting. I feel such sorrow and compassion for all those touched by this tragedy. There is no easy answer to what happened here. It isn't as if a single governmental entity attacked us. It is far more complicated. I just can't imagine what it was like for those in the planes as they hit the towers, or those in the buildings as they saw it coming. Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:25:51 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Thank You Marianne Message:

That would be nice to see some of the photo's from the latvian night last year, go ahead and email them if you would please. I miss San Francisco, seeing those pictures would get my mind of the current issues of the day. Thanks Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:25:18 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: My thoughts Message:

Marianne, I'm glad you didn't get on a plane yesterday. I'm relieved you're safe. My brother-in-law, the ATC at Providence airport went back to work today. Tomorrow, the only flights they will allow (at least at Providence) will be those planes that are all over the place and need to be re-routed back to where they are supposed to be, including all the pilots and flight crews. Btw, I was in a small gift shop in town today and we were talking about the NYC thing. A woman who works there told me her husband is a jet pilot for private aircraft and said he didn't know when he'd be able to get home. He said that even if the commercial airlines are allowed to start flying, they are grounding all private aircraft! I bet M will be pissed about that. But he's probably fixated on this event. When I was at Deca, he loved reading accident reports. Only one person in the office was allowed to compile them for him because they are so gross to read and the pictures, oy. What a freak! Another freaky coincidence. My sister whose married to the ATC called me today. Air traffic controllers are required to do what's called ''ride alongs.'' So they coordinate their vacations or trips so they can get to a destination for free. They have to sit in the cockpit to observe the pilots and other cockpit crew. Four years ago, on September 11th, my sister and her husband took the same 175 flight out of Boston, the exact same flight that hit one of the Trade Towers, on a trip they took to San Francisco. Weird, huh?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:31:48 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Cynthia, read your email -nt Message:

xxxx

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:01:37 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Hi Cynthia Message:

I figured you would have mentioned what your difficulties were if you wanted us to know so I haven't asked but I hope they're resolved soon.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:10:38 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Hi Pat... Message:

I did in the long post that started yesterday. I experience a near miss sexual assault by whom I thought was a good friend, a brother, and close friend to my husband. The betray and shock has begun to wear off, and yesterday, I got very emotional on the board here, obviously triggered by yesterday's tragedy. I don't want to go into details with anyone, my husband knows and he's a wonderful support. He was out of town at the time and I couldn't reach him by phone, so it was hard for me for a while. I'll make it. Not the worst thing that's happened to me. I'm minimizing it. It was awful, but I'm working it all out. I'll be okay. I'll make it. Thanks for asking.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:34:59 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: yelnaws Subject: No, relax Message:

Hi, If you are sincere I can understand what you may feelng, well, because in the past my mind became quite sick, I became confused about maharaji and what I was feeling. To begin, it will help you a lot to express what you are feeling. Nobody is going to pass a judgement in your words: We understand. Please write. Where are you? In the US? To what extent are you feeling bad? As Deborah said, if you are really feeling bad call 911 and go to a hospital. Sometimes when the mind becomes confused, disturbed, it is good to accept external help, psychiatric help. I did in the past and it helped me inmmensely. I am willing to write here my phone number,if you want it. Please write. Don't go away, we can help you. Love, Silvia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:48:36 (EDT) From: yelnaws Email: yelnaws@hotmail.com To: Silvia Subject: Re: No, relax Message:

Hi sylvia thanks for your kind letter. No i am not in need of psychiatric help it is purley in relation to maharaji. nd how he has destroyed my life. I am in united kingdom.Thanks for offering your phone no.If u have a chat i use msm that would be great.I am sorry if i am pannicking everybody i dident mean to but i am really desperate.. come back to me silvia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:05:25 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: yelnaws Subject: Yelnaws... Message:

There are many people here to answer your questions. No Maharaji is not the devil, he is just a fraud and a conman. What is your problem and needs this moment. If you are spamming, stop it now. If you are sincere, you have had many offers of help already. Start typing here or answer emails. With no real name or details, no one here is going to give you their phone number. Are you suicidal? If so, go call 911 right now, or any emergency number. If you are suicidal, get help now. We are not equipped here to deal with such matters. Calm down. You are not going to die over Maharaji. You sound desparate. Help is available, but not by starting thread after thread. Deep breaths. Call for actual help if you feel you are in any danger. Meantime, tell us what you need. Best wishes, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:32:20 (EDT) From: yelnaws Email: yelnaws@hotmail.com To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Yelnaws... Message:

Sorry u think i am not genuine. I am not totally familiar with computers. What to click or what not to click. I have been a premie for a very long time now it seems as if M is some sort of psychic conman. I would prefer if you could contact via e mail,or if u have a chat. To me the situation is really bad .It is helping me to talk to someone...........come back to me..........Y

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:46:48 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: yelnaws Subject: Re: Yelnaws... Message:

It's not that I don't think you are genuine. I just heard the frantic desparation in your posts. I apologize for sounding harsh... It's been a difficult 2 days here in America. I'm happy Silvia has offered her number to you; I hope you take advantage of this forum, it's not too hard, and I'm not totally familiar with computers either. Again, it's been a difficult 2 days. Hold on, you can talk here, and the offers of emails from some of the people here will most certainly be positive for you. I wish you well, all is not lost Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:52:43 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Hi Cynthia Message:

Hi Cynthia I am thinking of you all over there. Love Magiclara

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:50:00 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: yelnaws Subject: Re: Yelnaws... Message:

Hi I have sent you an e mail so you can e mail me if you want. There are lots of good people here who were once premies. If you can talk on here you will be able to get input from others who can help you to make sense of things. You say you are unfamiliar with computers, people are not here all the time so it may take a while for your posts to be answered. Best wishes Magiclara

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:52:58 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: magiclara Subject: Re: Yelnaws... Message:

Hi again Yelnaws I am online now for a while so I will answer if you post.I am in the UK too. Best wishes Magiclara

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:55:55 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: magiclara Subject: Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? Message:

I smell a rat. Anyone get anything otherwise?

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 21:34:53 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? Message:

I tried to get Yelnaws to interact with some sort of meaningful dialogue and could not get'em to put anything tangible down. So I don't know what to think, with all of the crazy shit going on around here and in the world I am in no mood to suffer another fool or prankster. This person seems to know more about computers than they let on, he/she started many threads and answered posts so there is some familiarity there. I see many others here have extended offers of help and advice so the ball is in yelnaws hands to show sincerity. This could be a case of crying Wolf, maybe not, In any case this is a poor example of how to introduce yourself around here.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 22:20:46 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? Message:

This could be a case of crying Wolf, maybe not, In any case this is a poor example of how to introduce yourself around here. Why do you say that? maybe you don't know how a person in distress that you never experience may feel like. I do. I was there. Lets give ANY person the benefit of the doubt, since we don't know we may be causing more harm and discouraging them from participating/helping themeselves. lets be caring. Some people are very affected mentally by the cult, unlike others. People's circumstances differ, right?

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 21:29:26 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? Message:

I don't. She/he wrote an e-mail to me and sounds sincerely in bad shape emotionally. Another victim of the cult mentality. You left long a go. Some people who were involved longer have been affected badly. The longer a person is in a cult the more they forget who they really are or who they should be. The cult sucks people into becoming somebody weird, to themselves, it stripes a person of simple defence mechanisms and leaves them vulnerable to become mentally confused.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 21:42:30 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Just read what you said Message:

I hope that Yelnaws pulls through, I will email to him/her privately to see what I can do. Thanks for the heads up Silvia, It sounds as if this individual needs some coaching and re-assurrance and possibly professional help before they are ready to do effective prime time public participation

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 22:16:37 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: Just read what you said Message:

I could not have pulled out of my 'mental ensalada' without the help of this forum and good reading/information and therapy. My mind had become confused, sick. I had many unrealistic thoughts, a mixture of failure and desolation feelings when I realized maharaji was fake. I too felt my life was never going to be the same and that I was going to stay in a emotional suffering state, forever. Yes, it's necesary that this person, Y, seeks professioanl help and I hope she/he is willing, if he/she is not doing already. Most premies do not believe in Psychology. In the e-mail he/he sounded thankful that we offer help, though, he/she feels life will never be the same, thing which is not true. I just hope this person comes back to this forum and doesn't keep all to her/himself. I gave Y my phone number in an e-mail and offer to take a collect call. She/he needs support it seems, by the writing style here. best regards Brian, silvia

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:26:21 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Silvia Subject: I emailed y several hours ago, no response yet Message:

I hope that Y is alright, we will just have to wait and see

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:06:30 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? Message:

Hi Gerry I wasn't sure but thought if genuine he/she needed help. I e mailed but got no response. Who knows. Best wishes Magiclara

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 22:22:04 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: magiclara Subject: Re: Yelnaws, possible Prankster? Message:

she/he wrote to me. Not a very nice mail. She is legit, in bad shape. Lets be caring.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:53:20 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Look here... Message:

Silvia, Don't be so free to give out your phone number. It's just not safe. I had great concern for this person and responded. We are not a psychiatric facility nor are we equipped to deal with people who are having suicidal ideations. This is serious business. I know from experience. That's why I told this person to call or go to an emergency facility to get some care. That has to be the first step if someone comes to this forum in such bad shape. When someone is experiencing deep emotional wounding, they must be advised to seek professional help immediately. We are not able to provide that. A long while ago ex-premies spoke all night with a suicidal person (I'm on the east coast so I wasn't on line at the time). Being caring is important, but our safety must come first. Until we know who this person is and her emotional/mental state, it is not advisable for any of us to take on that huge responsibility. Especially because we are not professional mental health care providers. I told her to call 911 or a crisis hotline. If she is not suicidal, she will live through this, we all have, as painful as it has been. Be careful is all I'm saying. She has a responsibility to herself to take care of herself in the walking around world, not in cyberspace. Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:30:27 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: You are so right! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:27:46 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Look here... Message:

Lard/EV, all the US has my phone number Cynthia. I was involved for years. What can happen to me for giving a person here my phone number? Nothing. With respect to the state of mind of some people, sometimes professioanl help is not the right answer, not what they need. A person may need to talk to someone who understands what it means braking away from false beliefs toward maharaji and what they are feeling. I responded because I can relate to anybody feeling he is evil because I did in some point myself. I have i think an easy way of feeling compelled to reach people who have mental problems and I have some training. You say: Be careful is all I'm saying. She has a responsibility to herself to take care of herself in the walking around world, not in cyberspace. How are you so sure to judge how she/he feels 'hearing' so little from this person? I find your comment as unrealistic, more, for the e-mail this person set me. Sometimes people need understanding from somebody who feels/felt the same way they are feeling. I will hate to think I could have done soemthing to help other suffering and I got myself mislead by my wrong judgements. A friend of mine called me to go visit him one night and I thought, go find help somewhere else....he killed himself the next day.... But I appreciate Cynthia your concern about my safety. Really. Silvia

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:28:33 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Re: Look here... Message:

Hi Silvia, I'm sorry. I'm just feeling paranoid lately and if you have been able to reach out to this person I support you fully. My main concern was for your safety and confidentiality...I heard on the news that the gov. is monitoring websites in the wake of New York. I'm sorry about your friend. Don't blame yourself. You could have gone to visit him and he still may have gone through with the suicide as he did. I have a friend whose brother was a Vietnam vet (3 years over there) and in great despair. He was virtually guarding him because he wouldn't seek help. One night the brother had to go to the store (they were living in a remote spot in northwestern Connecticut) and Greg said, I'm fine, go ahead. When the brother returned, Greg had shot himself in the head. I appreciate your response. I'm not in a place where I feel I can help anyone right now, but I'm relieved that you are here and able to do it. Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:49:13 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: thanks for answering Message:

Hi Cynthia, I'm glad you understood my post. I have a helping spirit to begin with but I also understand, to clarify further, by my own experience that if it wasn't because of my loved ones I would have committed suicide more than once and since I didn't know in what state of mind this person was posting here and felt my words could make a difference. Depressed/confused people sometimes need simply a receptive ear, someone who can relate to their pain. That is what I offer. Take care of yourself. I too feel at times I have nothing to give or energy to write.... Silvia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:49:48 (EDT) From: yelnaws Email: yelnaws@hotmail.com To: All Subject: jay sat chit anand Message:

I need to talk to someone seriously

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:15:55 (EDT) From: yelnaws Email: yelnaws@hotmail.com To: All Subject: re are you french Message:

hi i am desperate to speak to someone bout guru maharaji.I am freaking out really badly

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:33:51 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: yelnaws Subject: Please Speak, tell us what you are feeling Message:

Someone will answer you

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:45:24 (EDT) From: yelnaws Email: yelnaws@hotmail.com To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: Please Speak, tell us what you are feeling Message:

Someone will answer you --- Hi i need to speak to somone about guru maharaji.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:57:55 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: yelnaws Subject: Re: Please Speak, tell us what you are feeling Message:

Just write what you want to say down. I emailed you if you want to ask a question off the forum. Please don't start any more threads for now. We can answer the ones you started.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:43:08 (EDT) From: yelnaws Email: yelnaws@hotmail.com To: All Subject: is there anyone out there Message:

hi can somone get back to me asap thanks

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:53:15 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: yelnaws Subject: Are you French? Message:

There is a french forum .....and a regular poster here .....jean Michel Khan also posts on the French forum. I don't have his email right now but I'll try to get it. What is it you want exactly?

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:36:43 (EDT) From: yelnaws Email: yelnaws@hotmail.com To: All Subject: I need help Message:

Hi how can i contact somone positivly about ex premies, Ie guru maharaji

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:42:09 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: yelnaws Subject: Just start typing Message:

Write your thoughts down in French, some people here can speak or read French. Also, please let us know if you have contacted anyone else.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:51:51 (EDT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: yelnaws Subject: You just Did Message:

Keep reading here, share your story with us and review the information on the Ex-premie site. If you are for real, there are many here who will help you. By the way are you or have you ever been a premie? Tell us more about yourself. In the mean time check this out http://www.ex-premie.org/ [ EPO ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:35:28 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: All Subject: Black and White and Red and Brown... Message:

It's all about intolerance. My intolerances all of which I haven't yet faced, and on a grand scale, the intolerances of those white people who came to America and slaughtered the indeginous (sorry, I can't spell today) people by Europeans who considered them savages. They were/are pagans. Worshipping and placing value on every living thing, the ground, the sky, and even rocks. Then came slavery. American would never be the rich country it is today without the stealing of human black people, out of their villages in Africa, out of their homes, and slave-shipping them to America for profit. I spoke with a friend today who is white and married to a black man. She told me her husband's attitude about the bombing is quite different than the rednecks around these parts, considering his heritage: slavery. And what about the African/White/Native American people? Many people refuse to accept that against their will, right here in America, women were raped by their owners and produced a new race. Then, these people also intermarried with Native Americans. White and Red and Black and Brown. Intolerance for those people who don't look like us. One thing upon moving to Vermont many years ago is that I was completely unconscious about how white this state is. Very white-anglo-saxon. People in America are so proud to state: My ancesters came over on the Mayflower, or whatever. I say, I am very glad mine came over in the early 1900's from Poland, a very repressed country throughout both world wars, escpecially WWII. Yes, I am white. No one can plan their own color. No one can plan their gender. We don't ask to be born, we are simply born. What right do we have to look down with so much hate on people of color? For years I lived in a home where the father was a racist of the Archie Bunker kind: ignorant, hateful. Some miracle inside my mind and heart knew this was wrong. So I invented my personal rebellion on this front since the day I escaped, $4 in my pocket and I never went back. Since then, I have studied extensively (not in a college but by reading) the true history of this country. Genocide was commited against the Indians (Natives). Slavery was widespread and the economy boomed until the Civil War. But that didn't stop predudice and intolerance, it enhanced it. I am happy with who I am and the color of my skin. But I am also happy when I meet people of color. As recent as five years ago, an AfricanAmerican woman was denied access to a bathroom in a local store because of her color. Yes, she sued. Glad she won. Flowers grow in many beautiful colors. So do human beings. I look inside myself every day to find the intolerances, residues of the culture in which I was brought up, cast those remaining predudices out of my mind and heart. The root of evil in this world is intolerance and peoples' unchecked greed for attaining enormous wealth, stepping upon the backs of the middle and working class people, the poor, too. Stop it now! That's a slogan I learned from a wisened woman who spent many hours of her time helping me become a whole person. Her mission in life is to stop all child abuse in America, but particularly in Vermont. Now Gov. Dean, a good man, announced he is not running for re-election. His father died a month ago, and was a huge bigwig on wallstreet. I don't agree with all his politics, but he has responded to this mentor of mine by ensuring that her agencies receive all the state and federal funding needed to further her cause: Stop It Now: Violence against children, women and yes, men, too. If a republican gets into office much will be lost. She taught me not to hate men. She taught me tolerance. She taught me how to become a healthy and whole being, with love in my heart for all living things, human and otherwise. Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:15:58 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: ***Really beautiful post*** Message:

Hi Cynthia, Hi Cynthia, What great thoughts you shared. I wish the people in power could be so reflective. I was a little disturbed at Bush's comments like 'Freedom bieng attacked'. Please no loaded words Bush, not a time to play games. I want to hear sincerity. I'm glad I have the forum to come to so that I can get a healthy perspective. A couple of guys I frequently have coffee with in the morning were discussing a phone in talk show. They mentioned that someone called in and had a critically thinking statement they were politely said 'good-bye' to but others that were rambling but towing the political rehetoric were allowed to blather on and on. I am so grateful for this site for a number of reasons. Thanks for sharing such a deep and meaningful thought. Been to Vermont myself when I was younger. Just an hour away from Montreal. Neighbours with Michael J. Fox?

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:22:23 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Hi Deborah... Message:

No, I'm in north central VT, and Michael used to have a farm in Woodstock, VT, the town that the Rockerfellers built. That's southeast from me. Canada is close, but I don't go there very often. And now is not a good time to be crossing the border obviously. My husband has a friend whose house is 1/2 in Vermont and 1/2 in Canada. Everyday she has to drive out of her driveway, go through the US border/customs on her way to work, and everyday she has to go through the Canadian customs to get to her driveway. Wild, isn't it? They all know her, but have to follow the rules.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:58:31 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: That's wild! Message:

I never heard of that! Too funny. Yeah! Been at least 15 yrs. since I saw the beautiful green state. One of these days. Summer time would be best. I never did fancy Mtl in the winter months. Victoria, now that's the place for me. I came to go to school, but who knows. It's been home for 5 years now. Of course, you have to cope with neighbours like Jim Heller. He busts up this town the same he does the forum. Seriously. No difference. It's funny being at his house sometimes, especially when I'm in a room full of non-premies and they are all yakking about how sick it all is. Then someone who is reading something will scream out, 'This could be a SOAP Opera' or something. One of Jim's friends drew a picture of Maha as a cubby 13 yr. old with little legs sitting a lotus postion. He has a devil tail and horns on the head with a 70's button with a $ sign. It lights in the dark. Too funny. Well there you go. That guy up there needs help. We'll talk soon. Deborah Thanks again for your thoughtful reflection.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:34:33 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: All Subject: Reports this side of pond Message:

It turns out that there are probably hundreds of Brit fatalities in the WTC according to govt; and media reports over here. One British lawyer gave a moving report of his experience. His office was on the 56th (or 52nd?) floor. When a plane struck he was hurled over his desk. From his window he saw burning parts of the plane falling down ....seats etc etc. He started to go down ....first a few people and as he descended, more and more people. 20 floors down they came across NY firemen on the way up. He said everyone applauded them .....the firemen were exhausted hauling heavy equipment up and climbing the stairs plus their clothing making it all even hotter and hotter. Hhe said they were so selfless and heroic. He said he'll remember them for the rest of his life. He reckons every one of the firemen who passed him , later died.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:18:54 (EDT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: Reports this side of pond Message:

My 'moniker' is frightening me. I witnessed the entire event from the windows of my apartment. I think it has changed my life for ever. In memoriam to the thousands of innocent victims who were just trying to earn their daily bread.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 09:54:54 (EDT) From: Katie from cyberspace Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Voyeur Subject: to Voyeur Message:

Dear Voyeur - I have given up posting on this forum, but I just had to answer your post. I hope you are all right. I saw the buildings collapse on TV in real time, when no one knew it was going to happen, and I still can't get over it, so can't imagine what it is like for you. I could imagine how many firefighters who went into those buildings to try and save people, and who were caught in the collapse. My stepson lives in South Manhattan and we, of course, didn't know where he would be at that hour of the morning, but finally got in touch with him and he is all right (although he had to be evacauated from his apartment.) It was so scary. Also, I am from Washington, DC - my dad worked in the Pentagon for many years, and I have many friends whose family works there. They are all OK, thank god, but that really hit me hard too. People who work in the Pentagon aren't all awful warmongers (as I'm sure you know) - they are just real people like those who worked in the WTC. I realize that this tragedy is being politicized both on this forum and in real life, but that tends to make things abstract, and difficult to comprehend that this happened to innocent people - who were not representatives of the 'US Power Machine' or whatever. I hope that people on this forum who are saying things like 'the united states brought this on themselves' realize that that is exactly what the hard-line premies said about the CAC site. Anyway, still trying to cope with the shock here - hope you are all right. Love, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 11:47:19 (EDT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: Katie from cyberspace Subject: Re: to Voyeur Message:

Yes, my wife and I are fine, though we watched a greater part of this tragedy live as it happened, and I was on the phone to a friend downtown urging him to get out. It was during this conversation that I said to him 'get out' as I watched the second tower collapse through the window, and he (not hearing me) said 'it's getting awfully dark down here'. He did get out. I have also virtually given up posting on this forum. I have contributed something where I had some factual information to give (which was not much), but the activities of some people over the last few weeks have made me more of a reader. Plus my political views are the direct opposite of everyone who posts here, and while I believe that this should be a non-political forum, after GMJ did not ask us to declare our politics before we all went on the same ride, but it seems that a great deal of politics is around on this site these days. I also feel that I may have contributed little to the discussion but I aslo have not made promises, threats etc which only tend to destablize the discussion. I hope I have not revealed too much in this email. I use a moniker because I do not trust Elan Vital or the people in it. As you realize, they are ruthless in their own way, and I don't believe that as individuals, except for people who had significant status like Donner and Dettmers, we can effectively deal with them. TO do that you need an organization, and as you can see from this and the previous forums, ours would not last long.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:03:23 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Voyeur Subject: Good thoughts to you Message:

My heart goes out to you. If you need to chat, you can email me. Marianne

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:39:24 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Voyeur Subject: I feel for you Message:

But we all are closer to the tragedy than we might realize. I live in Victoria, BC. Last night some people I was talking to saw the nuclear submarines going out to sea. Learned from Pearl Harbour that they are not safe at land. People in city of Richmond opened up their homes to put up and comfort stranded travellers. I think 40 planes were diverted to Vancouver alone. How are people in New York coping?

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:11:56 (EDT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: I feel for you Message:

This is the most wonderful city in the world. Tens of thousands of people on the streets and everyone is subdued and polite, helping wherever they can. Truly wonderful.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:10:26 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: Voyeur Subject: Re: I feel for you Message:

Thinking of you all over there. I have seen from personal experience how tragedy and shared horror bring people together and bring out the best in us.Most people I think are intrinsically loving it just gets lost in the chaos of our busy lives. Love Magiclara

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:26:26 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Voyeur Subject: Re: I feel for you too Message:

Yes, New Yorkers are great. Midwesterners like to give them a bum rap but I find them unpretentious and straightforwrd. The scenes of solidarity on TV are wonderful. Best wishes to you.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 07:53:01 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: I feel for you too Message:

Dear V, Just want to add my voice to the others. I can't get my mind around this and yet it has made me feel more connected to being an American. Glad, at least that you made it through and hope your up for the work of healing. Love, Robyn

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:22:24 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Voyeur Subject: Good news, glad to hear that :) Message:

Keep us posted will you. M. Voyeur, tell us what you see. isn't this a great forum? So glad I have you guys to talk to, i must go to class. The time keeps flying by. Deborah

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 14:03:53 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: All Subject: Survivor info (OT) Message:

If anyone needs information about the survivors of the World Trade Center collapse and the destruction in NY, here's a great resource from MSN.com It has tenant lists of the WTC, a survivor's I'm OK board, etc. http://tech.msn.com/ip/msnart97.asp Francesca

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 12:15:52 (EDT) From: Suedoula (Susan) Email: None To: All Subject: Musings on a post apocalyptic day Message:

Hello all, Just wanted to say I'm grateful to have found this place and this group. Am feeling so very displaced today. My kids are home from school and I cannot wrap my mind around or put my heart into a regular routine. I am surprised that I feel so lost. But why should I feel otherwise? Used to live in the city and then in Brooklyn Heights. Can't tell you how many times I walked over the Brooklyn Bridge into Manhattan and marvelled at the site of the skyline reflecting the morning sun. Can't tell you how sad I am that it will never be the same again. I am mourning the loss of the towers as the symbol for the bigger toll of humanity inside. I am fearful of the changes this event bodes for all of us. Will our lives ever be the same? How can our lives ever be the same? I will have to go back to the city when I can and look at the skyline as it is now or I will never truly believe in the horror that has occurred. Best wishes to all, Susan

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:57:08 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Suedoula (Susan) Subject: Hello Suedoula... Message:

By the way, that was a beautiful choice for a handle. You have such an honorable profession. When my youngest sister had her last baby (a beautiful boy) she hired a mifwife and a doula. After the birth, she told me it was the best choice she ever made (she didn't have either when she had her first child. When I saw the scores of peole walking over the bridge it reminded me of a holocaust. Yet I have come to believe that those towers symbolize and actually are, the financial center of this country of the world. I won't miss them. The loss of humanity yesterday will resonate for years to come. I don't want to got to war. War does stimulate the economy, but it also stimulates inflation. The buildings were beautiful, but the kings of money inside were not. That doesn't justify mass murder in the least. However, I was never surprised that this happened, it was only a matter of time. I was shocked, yes. Griefstriken, yes. Surprised: not at all. To me these high rises are all phallic symbols built for power. (sorry guys I'm on a feminist roll these days). Suedoula, I am glad you are here. After the initial shock of yesterday, we will get back to the main topic. Meanwhile, hug your kids, play with them, reassure them that they are loved and safe...and turn the tv off from time to time. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 14:08:12 (EDT) From: Suedoula Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Hello Suedoula... Message:

Hi Cynthia (and all) Thanks for your post -- I love being a doula, am so happy to have found it as my calling. I am thinking of so many women who are having babies in the midst of these uncertain and trying times. I heard someone today refer to the Twin Towers as the 'Twin Temples of Capitalism', and while I know that to be the truth, I will still miss the sight of them. The time that I spent walking to and from Manhattan over the Brooklyn Bridge was the same time I was taking to rediscover myself and heal from my years of servitude to the massa. I was taking my life back and finding out who I was without the restraints and limitations of the lifestyle defined for me by M. I walked over the bridge almost every day and that became my meditation time -- I walked, I mused and I took in the sights of the city before me which looked as limitless as the possibilities I had before me. So the thought of the skyline changed so drastically does sadden me. Tomorrow I am meeting a friend and we are going to Norwalk Beach to see what the skyline looks like from CT. I will venture closer to the city sometime, but not quite yet. I guess I am not letting myself really think about the politics of this event because I have been trying but can't seem to write about it yet. Suffice it to say that I feel much the same as you in that regard. I appreciate that you are expressing what I can't just yet. Best to all, Susan

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 11:53:35 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: All Subject: Don't say anything you don't mean on the Internet Message:

The latest news: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,46747,00.html Anti-Attack Feds Push Carnivore By Declan McCullagh (declan@wired.com) 2:00 a.m. Sep. 12, 2001 PDT WASHINGTON -- Federal police are reportedly increasing Internet surveillance after Tuesday's deadly attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Just hours after three airplanes smashed into the buildings in what some U.S. legislators have dubbed a second Pearl Harbor, FBI agents began to visit Web-based, e-mail firms and network providers, according to engineers at those companies who spoke on condition of anonymity. An administrator at one major network service provider said that FBI agents showed up at his workplace on Tuesday 'with a couple of Carnivores, requesting permission to place them in our core, along with offers to actually pay for circuits and costs.' [...] Microsoft's Hotmail service has also been the target of increased federal attention, according to an engineer who works there. 'Hotmail officials have been receiving calls from the San Francisco FBI office since mid-(Tuesday) morning and are cooperating with their expedited requests for information about a few specific accounts,' the person said. 'Most of the account names start with the word 'Allah' and contain messages in Arabic.' [...]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:05:14 (EDT) From: [Blank] Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Re: Don't say anything. Message:

The Feds are morons. A Boston newspaper warned them a week before that a hijacking will take place, and what did the do? Fuck all. Now they want to blame it on anybody. I tell you what they need, Bruce Willis, he will save them.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:10:47 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Very convenient'declaration of war' Message:

Now watch civil liberties in US, UK AND Europe fly out the window in the name of (irony of ironies) protecting 'freedom'. Obviously governments will be freaked by what happened but also , in one way, they'll be rubbing their hands in glee. Over here we have the 'official secrets Act' and other legislation (don't know what you have in the USA)and add to that a 'state of war' even if it's a bit hazy (ie enemy unknown)and the governments have the perfect recipe to set up a nice little police state. I sometimes think the term 'democracies' should be replaced with 'Capitalates'....sod our civil and human rights .....let's jsut make money !! haha

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:47:45 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Dermot Subject: My thoughts exactly Francesca... Message:

Yesterday, while the forum was pretty quiet except for me and a some of the guys talking, I was wondering about whether or not the ''Jihad'' (I hate that word, holy war, which is an oxymoron) would also disable the internet using hackers. I also thought of the possibility that surveillence would start on the internet by the goverment. Oh what a wonderful world. Love, Cynthia

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