Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 07, 2001 To: Sep 13, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Bob -:- spontaneity -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:36:08 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Re: spontaneity -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:51:33 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Thanks Bob -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:51:16 (EDT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Re: Ditto Now M. sells Denial retail -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:38:02 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- My apologies to Gerry deleted -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:33:17 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Why are you doing this? -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:39:23 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Because poeple read you accusing me of rudeness -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:50:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Deleting posts on a whim. -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:06:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Deleting posts on a whim. -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:33:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hare today, rabbit tomorrow. -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:19:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Now you're pissing me off -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:30:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Now you're pissing me off -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 20:57:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Re: Now you're pissing me off -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 21:44:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- gerry please dont -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:59:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Me having the password -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:58:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gery -:- Yes, John, thanks. -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:29:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- So whose feet do I kiss -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 04:19:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: hey salam -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 05:28:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- yeah,r.e. ya beefherd [er, boofhead] -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 22:43:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: hey salam -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 05:45:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Re: hey salam -- ok, hahaha -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 22:48:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Oh, that feels good -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 04:33:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Gerry, you and I are not meant to fight -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:48:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Now I'm really envious... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 23:00:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::schwimmer dow gnaw :: [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:53:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- 'Bufus' =term of endearment . Light hearted . [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:09:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- I understand -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:50:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Advice from an old FA. -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:28:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Gerry, Please don't go... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 22:57:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Thanks Gerry -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 19:31:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Thanks Gerry -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:15:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- a dollar an hour and all of the ink jet -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:01:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: a dollar an hour and all of the ink jet -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:35:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- You might be on to something Pat -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:00:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- EPO's IPO -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:20:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- you're fine -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 21:04:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: I understand -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:25:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: I understand -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:17:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Re: I understand -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:15:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Re: I understand -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 21:09:19 (EDT)

Francesca -:- To PEG: your post is gone -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:08:04 (EDT)

eBay Alert -:- Blue Aquarius LP For Sale -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:10:54 (EDT)
__ Bin Liner -:- I've got one under my bed... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 21:40:50 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- Okay, Once again...re: no text... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:49:02 (EDT)
__ Brian S -:- I want to make sure iam doing this right (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 21:48:20 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- You're doing it wrong:) -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 06:44:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ Brian S -:- OK I think I've got it [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:51:47 (EDT)

btdt -:- re;Lady Charlene Glasserly -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:26:45 (EDT)
__ cq -:- Re: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:57:56 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:47:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ cq -:- WAHADAMAR and Dunrite -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 08:06:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: WAHADAMAR and Dunrite -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:39:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Ego strokes can mean a lot ... -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:38:13 (EDT)

btdt -:- re;Lady Charlene Glasserly -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:26:44 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Cost of the 'conference' for big donators -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:48:17 (EDT)
__ la-ex -:- That's nothing,compared to BIG donors -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 22:27:43 (EDT)
__ michael donner -:- Re: Cost of the 'conference' for big donators -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:55:26 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- What? Donations Down? -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:32:52 (EDT)
__ MahaMoneyBags -:- Wow!!Count Me IN!!(is toe kissing Extra?) -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:31:47 (EDT)

bob lesch -:- deca -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:59:03 (EDT)
__ Jim Sander -:- Bob, didn't I know you in Wash.DC? -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:07:23 (EDT)
__ __ bob lesch -:- Re: Bob, didn't I know you in Wash.DC? -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:16:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim Sander -:- Bingo, Bob...that was it... -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:19:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bob lesch -:- Re: Bingo, Bob...that was it... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:22:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bob lesch -:- Re: Bingo, Bob...that was it... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:18:02 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Your ''Recollections'' -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:37:27 (EDT)
__ __ bob lesch -:- Re: Your ''Recollections'' -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:24:00 (EDT)
__ RichMandrake -:- DECA, an Acronym for... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:20:09 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: DECA, an Acronym for... -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:57:38 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Great Acronym, Rich [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:48:57 (EDT)
__ bill -:- oh that tendency to paint things as if. -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 09:57:51 (EDT)
__ __ bob lesch -:- Re: oh that tendency to paint things as if. -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:32:56 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: oh that tendency to paint things as if. -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:59:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill -:- I would know her but not her name now. -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 18:39:54 (EDT)
__ __ bill-just in case, -:- 'I suppose' means we didnt have them. [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:39:55 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- well done, Bill (NT) -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:03:44 (EDT)

cq -:- How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:23:24 (EDT)
__ Passing Through -:- I beg you, please show me the quote!! -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 20:06:58 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- You won't hear him say 'I am a Master' either -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 11:52:20 (EDT)
__ __ RichMandraek -:- This is a Test... -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:59:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ RichMandrake -:- Trying to Post a Link -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:12:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Guidelines to creating Links within a post -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 12:51:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: Guidelines to creating Links within a post -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 13:00:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: Guidelines to creating Links within a post -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 12:58:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: Guidelines to creating Links within a post -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:07:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ me again -:- test -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:31:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ all -:- Re: Guidelines to creating Links within a post - message to JHB -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 12:56:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Somebody help me! How do I edit message here? (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 13:06:04 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Your rationalisation is impressive -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 20:27:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- They're no better than holocaust deniers -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 21:24:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- I am not PT -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:39:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You're a liar, David Roup... -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 04:10:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- The two numbers are different you Buffoon. -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 12:10:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: The two numbers are different you Buffoon. -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:28:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- This is getting funnier by the moment -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:06:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I may not be an IT pro but I am not cruel -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:26:44 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- CD censored this on Life's Great -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 11:53:54 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- Re: CD censored this on Life's Great -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:23:19 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Another quiet, excellent observation, Jerry -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:02:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Re: Another quiet, excellent observation, Jerry -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:34:37 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- Yep,how M claimed to be God! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:24:25 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:24:47 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- Oh, yes, that imprint on our souls -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:35:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Oh, yes, that imprint on our souls -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:31:00 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:24:47 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- Fringe premies, church ladies, fanatical cultists -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 04:13:28 (EDT)
__ such -:- r.e. LG premies -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:15:49 (EDT)
__ Toette -:- You hit the ail o the head! nt -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:20:06 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Did you have an n-dectomy, Tonette? -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:47:15 (EDT)
__ Gregg -:- premiespotting -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:09:39 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- PWKs are not premies, Gregg -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:10:18 (EDT)
__ BTDT -:- YES!!! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:10:36 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Now I want to hear your story, btdt [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:08:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Now I want to hear your story, btdt -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 01:01:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I'm not interested in PAMs -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 04:19:51 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Pat and BTDT...both Excellente! [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:58:23 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- great, Pat -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:38:56 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- EXCELLENT PAT ! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 06:02:55 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:07:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:22:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:22:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Many thanks Loafie -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:52:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Me, too...More, please -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:45:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- The ''Evolution'' video Loaf mentioned... -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 15:35:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: The ''Evolution'' video Loaf mentioned... -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 13:08:46 (EDT)

Barry -:- So! Maybe M did use the forum eh? -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:50:05 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- THIS COULD BE MY FIRST 'FLAME' !! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 02:46:15 (EDT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Oh Loaf...!! We are all misty. Cngrats!! [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:04:49 (EDT)
__ __ Barry -:- Re: Just call me Bobby Brady! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:29:07 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- How are you Barry?? -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:14:06 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Also... -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:21:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Joe, I think this Jim's friend, not Bazza [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:50:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Isn't Bazza Jim's friend? -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:59:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- This is Barry Clarke, Jim's friend -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:04:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Hi Francesca and HI Barry you troublemaker ;) -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:37:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Hi Deborah (OT) -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 02:19:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Re: Hi Francesca and HI Barry you troublemaker ;) -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:12:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Thanks Fran -:- But keep ya day job Barry -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:01:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Yo! Joe Satriani -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:22:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Yo! Joe Satriani -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 14:14:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ok Dude! -:- Actually I liked the simple style -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 08:28:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Barry! -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 13:19:46 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:36:08 (EDT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: All
Subject: spontaneity
Message:
Fortunately the CAC miseries are over for now.
What I regret is that these attacks cause a lack of spontaneity on the forum, everybody is more on guard.
It has done nothing for cacaraji, exept put serious doubts in the heads of his followers.
We need to deal with the sense of vulnerability: I like the forum to be a place like home, where I can meet my friends. We had similar ideals and we were screwed similarly. Sometimes we take action together, we welcome new exes and we share experiences and opinions. It is good that trolls are excluded and deleted.
Of course some of them think we are fair game.
After all this forum and EPO had a huge impact on the expansion plans of cacaji: The European tour was a near debacle with the press criticism in France, the empty seats in Spain and the rain and mad cows in England. The forced press release about Jagdeo(insulting and incorrect as it was).
And now the incriminating activities of the CAC site, hastily withdrawn.
We have forced rawat and EV in a defensive position all the time!! This is as much victory as we could expect.
It has probably saved hundreds of people from falling into the same trap as we once did.
I hope the spontaneity, the intelligence and the creativity will soon get the upper hand over the initial shock of some of us after what happened with caca. These are just desperate attempts of some premies holding on to straws...
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:51:33 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@hafey.com
To: Bob
Subject: Re: spontaneity
Message:
Fortunately the CAC miseries are over for now.
What I regret is that these attacks cause a lack of spontaneity on the forum, everybody is more on guard.

---

I think the time off is just as valuable in terms of building
a more robust base of conversationalists who will also engage
wrt Divine Light Mission historical fact. One thing is for
sure: the mark left on me by DLM is permanent; a large part
of my character was formed during my involvement with it, and
during the subsequent years when I had not fully crushed
certain ideological concerns placed in my thinking by DLM
cult programming.

I spent many years programming myself into DLM cult-think;
I expect to take as many years deprogramming DLMisms from
my thinking, and creating new programming to build new ways
to think about things.

I'm not worried about losing momentum here -- that's
expected; it is (to me) part of the selection process, where
decide where to best invest their energy while engaged in
conversation, online. There has been a lot of stability
lost, in the past year, wrt the EPO forums. AFAIC,
the former stability came in the form of a benevolent
dictatorship which has since fallen into ruins.

I feel strongly about my convictions wrt the online
architectures, and how they influence the way people
interact while online. How could it be any other way?
There are many rules imposed on our interactions, by the
mediating software.

Change the software; change the interactions.

etc ji
[ EPO:CT ]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:51:16 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Thanks Bob
Message:
We had such great times on FV but I know that the old-timers also had problems and lived through bad times on all the previous forums. Give it a couple more days and we'll all be having fun here again sharing our experiences.
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:38:02 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Ditto Now M. sells Denial retail
Message:
thanks for the recap- It is true that Muffinfat and premies are on the defensive. The past months have been rough on exs but also on ev/m. So it is working- good reminder

best part is premies are researching and aspirants are making informed choices.

The one trap that worked so well in the past . Namely 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' has fundementally changed.
No longer is M trying to dispel doubt that meditation is good or bad. He is having to sell DENIAL.
He is so out of touch he is still HOPING people doubt the advantages of meditation wrapped in the fancy paper of his 'knowledge'.
Marolyn is the one with the key. If she runs a reality check and stops enabling Him - it will all gently come to right.

go marolyn
Z

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:33:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My apologies to Gerry deleted
Message:
So you had second thoughts about resigning and deleted your post from F7 but you also deleted my public apology. Perhaps you need a break. However I do think you are being hasty and hotheaded. I will repost my apology and suggestion. This is what Gerry deleted:

Gerry, my apologies

I don't know why you thought my email was rude. All I said
was: ''Turn the IP#s off on F7...NT.'' I emailed you because it seemed that you may not be looking at the forum and had not seen the problem.

All of us who were victims of CAC and also others who felt our pain are a bit on edge. But I am hoping that we will all regain our normal strength and composure and continue to provide a venue for ex-premies as well as questioning premies who visit EPO and the forum.

If you still feel that you don't want to continue being FA of F7 then I will set up Forum 8 and pay for it. We can continue with hotboards because it is a familiar format. Like you, I will delete spam and block malicious trolls.

Since all my skeletons were rattled out of the closet by CAC, I cannot be blackmailed as I have nothing to hide.

I did not mean to be rude to you and I apologise if that is the way it came across.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:39:23 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Why are you doing this?
Message:
You know what irritated me? Your sending me an NT email, with nothing in the text box. Also, you sent it on the back of an email I sent you five days ago to which you didn't bother to reply.

PS it's all yours. That's what you want anyway, right?

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:50:56 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Because poeple read you accusing me of rudeness
Message:
But did not have the opportunity to see my apology. I'm sorry if my email seemed rude. I grabbed the first email in my inbox as a quick way to email you. I had other stuff to do as well and was in a hurry. The problem had gone on for quite a while and I thought you were not aware of it since Francesca's polite request and Salam's were ignored. It was not my intention to insult you.

I am also offering a way out for you if you are feeling upset. The forum needs calmness and stability not temper tantrums. People need to know where they stand and that their posts will not be deleted on a whim.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:06:58 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Deleting posts on a whim.
Message:
Pat,

When I was FA, deleting posts on a whim was the only perk of the job.

It was the highlight of my shift.

Anth the goodyear whimp.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:33:13 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Deleting posts on a whim.
Message:
Oh boy! So that's what happened to my huge and erudite essay about the history of the entire universe that I wrote when I was stoned and forgot to save a copy.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:19:04 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Hare today, rabbit tomorrow.
Message:
...or was that bald tomorrow.

It's OK man. It's all part of a dream a wino is having in Bayswater. He's going to wake up soon for another drink, and then we'll all be gone.

Anth...'Only the lonely, know the puddles I've been through'. etc

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:30:32 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Now you're pissing me off
Message:
I do not remove anyone's post on a 'whim.' I've been very light handed and deleted MY thread and other references to the IP fiasco. That's it, unless you call that troll from Spain a 'person.' And I'm entitled to blow a little smoke from time to time.

AS SOON AS I FOUND OUT THERE WAS A PROBLEM I IMMEDIATELY CORRECTED IT.

There is no way I was ignoring Salam's or Fran's posts. No way. I had not seen them or I would have acted earlier.

I've always been in favor of other people having the forum password and one person has had the password for a couple of weeks. Unfortunately he didn't catch the IP thing either, although he might not feel authorized to act, it would have been welcomed.

I provided a smooth and easy transition in a difficult time. Perhaps you or someone else could have done a better job, but I did what I could out of a sense of loyalty and concern. Personally, I don't need this forum anymore.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 20:57:19 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Now you're pissing me off
Message:
gErRy,
If you followed Goober for more than a week, you need all the help you can get, for the rest of your life. Take your current prison-yard behavior over Pat's lapse of manners... first you're on your way out the door, then you're staying, then you don't need us anymore again. Which is it?

If you didn't need this forum anymore, you wouldn't have reacted to Pat's email. No, you need us alright; more therapy. You're like the D-j-u-r-o of the ex-premies.

Seriously, I hope you stay. The other FA's have done a fine job but you're the phat, dope shit.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 21:44:09 (EDT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Now you're pissing me off
Message:
Thanks Rick, It's nice to be understood. Just when I was feeeeling like I wasn't getting enough graditude or appre$iation.

:)

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:59:00 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: gerry please dont
Message:
dear gerry

What you have done and are doing here is very much appreciated. Can you two have your fight in private, and please do not move forums again.

Whatever happens.. we are healing people here.

Loaf

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:58:30 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Me having the password
Message:
Gerry,

I saw the encoded ip addresses and assumed you were looking at someones (probably ****'s) ip address. I didn't try to read one as I didn't want to abuse my access, so I didn't know that the password protection was off. Because of some posters' reactions to me as FA during the final days of F5, I have been very careful not to be seen as FAing in any way on F6 or F7. I have the password for taking archives and that's all.

My personal advice on this issue is the same that has been given by other FAs many times, and that is that it will blow over very quickly. You have, as you say, FA'd with the minimum of interference, and I think that is appreciated. People are jumpy in general after the CAC thing, so I wouldn't take anything too seriously.

Anyway, rather than just say you want others to have the password, why not advertise for Forum Administrators? You know how people like titles:-)

John.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:29:56 (EDT)
From: gery
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes, John, thanks.
Message:
I really appreciate what you have written here and want everyone to know that you in no way have abused your confidence. YOU are doing a great job on EPO and we all owe you a debt of (ahem) graditude.
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 04:19:49 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: gery
Subject: So whose feet do I kiss
Message:
So I called you a boofhead. So what? I call everyone a boofhead, even Rawat. No need to be offended.

Anyway, stop being such a ninny. You know we do like you and we have 'gratitude' and all that. I don't want you to quit. And am fed up with having to change links everytime the forum change places. so there you go, chop my head off.

CAC has left everyone on edge and fights will break up for no big reason, so give me the big fingure and flame me.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 05:28:06 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: hey salam
Message:
Gerry wrote below

''I took Salam's name calling just fine.'

he was fine with it and was not offended. no prob.
Z

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 22:43:33 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: yeah,r.e. ya beefherd [er, boofhead]
Message:
what's a 'boof', anyway? is dat like dufus, biff, butthead -- or just Good Buddy?! hey, where's da boof? hehehe

love,

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 05:45:25 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Re: hey salam
Message:
am disappointed. I thought I will get the big finger })
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 22:48:27 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: hey salam -- ok, hahaha
Message:

[ http://www.oz.net/~drek/pics/the_finger.jpg ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 04:33:34 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Oh, that feels good
Message:
Now you see that EV monitor kind of person, give him one too.

He ha

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:48:45 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry, you and I are not meant to fight
Message:
Let's talk about it tomorrow after a good night's sleep. Tonight six of us SF exes are having a little dinner party and hopefully it will make us all feel more relaxed and friendly again. I wish you were here.
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 23:00:56 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Now I'm really envious...
Message:
Six of you are having a dinner party?

Well, have a drink on me!

Everybody, take a deep breath. I mean it. Cool it. Simma down na.

Have a good time,
Cynth

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:53:22 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: ::schwimmer dow gnaw :: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:09:41 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: 'Bufus' =term of endearment . Light hearted . [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:50:24 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: I understand
Message:
I took Salam's name calling just fine. It WAS a dumb thing to leave the IP codes on and I HEARTILY APOLGIZE TO ANYONE WHO WAS COMPROMISED OR FELT THEY WERE COMPROMISED AND PARTICULARLY TO SUCH. It was the first time I had the need to go there and although I'm familiar with the works of Hotboard forums, I hadn't had to ID anyone's IP in a while. So shoot me.

Seriously, if there is a concensus of NO CONFIDENCE IN MY FA status, I will step aside immediately. If people are OK with it or indifferent, I will carry on.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:28:19 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Advice from an old FA.
Message:
gerry,

don't listen to them. They are all moaning minnies. They just sit at home, eating chips and biscuits, watching tv, and mouthing off all the time. Tell them to put their money where their mouths are. That will shut them up. They are not capable of giving advice. They are all nuts. If they bug you, tell them to get lost. If they don't, ban the bastards. Kick their posts off. Let them back when they have some respect, humility and manners for the almost superhuman effort it takes to keep the forum going day after day.

YOU HAVE THE POWER.

Anth who could have been a contender but couldn't take the heat in the kitchen so he ran off with a barmaid instead.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 22:57:13 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry, Please don't go...
Message:
Gerry,

HALT. That is what I was going to post as a new thread. Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired?

You are doing a wonderful job here. I especially appreciate it because I wouldn't even think to click on the ISP or even notice it! I am great at using computers but a dunce at all the website administration shitola.

So I appreciate your work. I also appreciate JHB's work, too.

Folks are a bit uptight lately and that's understandable. I know you understand. You can't be here 24/7.

So, I hope you have a nice relaxing evening and rest.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 19:31:13 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks Gerry
Message:
I can only imagine what a hard job you have as FA and how impossible it is to please everyone all of the time.

You came through on this thing without hesitation and were there when we needed you and you corrected mistakes as soon as they were noted.

Frankly, what more can be expected of you?

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:15:11 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: Thanks Gerry
Message:
I can only imagine what a hard job you have as FA and how impossible it is to please everyone all of the time.

You came through on this thing without hesitation and were there when we needed you and you corrected mistakes as soon as they were noted.

Frankly, what more can be expected of you?


---

Thus spake Brian.

Well, for starters, Gerry could pay us to post here.

Yes, Gerry, you did come through when we needed you and have done a good job.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:01:52 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: a dollar an hour and all of the ink jet
Message:
cartridge's you can eat. What can I say! this is a new start up company with limited capital and benefits
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:35:30 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: a dollar an hour and all of the ink jet
Message:
But what about stock options? gerry could pay us in stock and one day we'll all be rich and run new age consulting companies.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:00:54 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: You might be on to something Pat
Message:
I missed out on Nike back in the 70's when my now very wealthy friend who had just started work in the warehouse here in Portland told me of this new local tennis shoe company that had this strange way of compensating its employees with stock options.

I was too busy chasing some teenage guru around the world to listen to worldly materialistic advice like that back then.

I have no such excuse now, count me in on the first stock issue.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:20:16 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: EPO's IPO
Message:
Yes, I missed out on the Zantac opportunity - couldn't stand being a drug pusher. Prefer a good night's sleep and an easy conscience to money.
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 21:04:56 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: you're fine
Message:
let them come over: I'll receive them....hahahahaha

Hey, are you human or what? don't feel bad.

love,

silvia

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:25:44 (EDT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: I understand
Message:
Gerry,
As an occasional poster but constant lurker, I think your FAing has been fine and I hope you continue.
With reference to todays flare up I think someone should engage brain before hitting the keyboard
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:17:08 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: I understand
Message:
hi gerry
since I dont know what an ISP is - I just figured it was some computer thing that someone realized was in the wrong place and they posted on the forum to let sombody know about it.

It was obvious to me that the person who needed to know about it was not looking at the forum and it took a while to get straightened out.

I know how it can be to have a crisp non personal email arrive! It feels like a little lance . but then I also know that the letters on the screen are souless.

If pat was just tossing you some info while he was busy he could have given you a smily face at least. ;)

finally, i never can keep track of who is running the show there has been so many changes. But I thought this forum was going fine. Too bad forums cant be sublet if you need a vacation.

thank you for your work and lifeboat

Z

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:15:06 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: I understand
Message:
Gerry,

You are OK. I think you feel worse that we do about it, so don't kick yourself. It happened. It was corrected. It's over.

Bests, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 21:09:19 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: I understand
Message:
You're doing great Gerry just to keep the show on the road.

The curtain has been pulled down , the emperor is revealed as a bag of shit & the public need a place to discuss & let off steam.

Thanks for your efforts : this internet shadow boxing stuff is just the prelude I fear.

All the best : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:08:04 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To PEG: your post is gone
Message:
Dear Peg,

Your post is gone, but you've reminded me why I'm here. I can kibitz with my friends offline, and by private e-mail, but this public discussion has an important purpose.

I have met many good people here.

THANK YOU.

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:10:54 (EDT)
From: eBay Alert
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Blue Aquarius LP For Sale
Message:
The description mentions that it looks like the LP was never played. Mint Blue Aquarius.
[ Come And Get Yer Blue Aquarius LP ]
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 21:40:50 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: eBay Alert
Subject: I've got one under my bed...
Message:
...anyone who wants it can have it for nix.
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:49:02 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Okay, Once again...re: no text...
Message:
Will you folks puleeze try to remember to click 'yes' on the no text button?

If you're posting within a thread is right there to the left of 'post'.

If you're posting a new message, just simply place nt on your subject line.

It's starting to bug me. My machine is slow enough....no responses necessary....

That's all

Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 21:48:20 (EDT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I want to make sure iam doing this right (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 06:44:41 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: You're doing it wrong:)
Message:
Just below where you type there are a number of boxes. One of these says 'Textless Message?'. Change that to Yes. Not that it matters a great deal if you remember to put the nt on, but the subjuct becomes italicised which helps a little I guess.

John the helpful

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:51:47 (EDT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: OK I think I've got it [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:26:45 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: All
Subject: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly
Message:
Not knowing how to bring this post up here, I hope ya all will know what I'm talking about. Lady Glasserly brings up an interesting point about the registered agent for the Rawat children's latest venture. Is it possible Maharaji is making money off Vision sales in the same or similar way?
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:57:56 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly
Message:
Click here: http://sitelevel.whatUseek.com/query.go?crid=2bd1a44735545585&query=Wahadamar&slice_title=&page=&domain=&exclude=&autocustomize=
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:47:38 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly
Message:
Do I have this right? Dunrite has been around since 1988? The premies saw the latest batch of films at the event in Oregon, La and ooood and ahhhhhhed that the kids just started this company to make these marvoulous films.

All those links gave me a headache! Geeze, I wish I was smart enough to figure how all these shell corporations link to each other. But here's something I've been wondering about for awhile and I think I'm not far off the mark. All the sophisticated 'participation' services that are available now, it's like applying for a real job. So I get to thinking, the fruits of unpaid premie labor for supposedly EV can be used via data, info, etc for a real company presenting itself to the public which is none other for Maharaji or Wahadamar. Just like Dunrite. Man what a deal! Free premie labor parlayed into profit for M and Ev=M.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 08:06:59 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: WAHADAMAR and Dunrite
Message:
M's finances are well protected, I'd say. Michael Dettmers intimated as much when he first started posting here. But you never know what you can find out til you try.

Dunrite I know next to nothing about, but with a bit of luck, other posters here might be able to fill you in about it.

I guess all we know for sure about WAHADAMAR Inc. (apparently named after M's children: WAdi, HAnsi, DAya and AMAR) is what's on file with the relevant authorities, namely this:

(info current through 7-21-2000, filed w/ Secretary of State)
State ID Number: 01710708
Type: Domestic Stock Corporation
Status: Active
Good Standing Status: Only available directly from Secretary of State.
Date of Incorporation: 8-03-1992
Mailing Address: PO Box 1437, Thousand Oaks, CA 91358
Duration: Perpetual
Title: President
Name: John K. Bale
Address: 516 N Pennsfield PL #108, Thousand Oaks, CA 91360
Title: Registered Agent
Agent Name: Alvaro Pascotto
Address: 1800 Avenue Of The Stars #600, Los Angeles, CA 90067

I know Jean-Michel was of the opinion that the Wahadamar stuff was the 'one to nail Rawat.' He also said:
'A few years back, DLM was distributing internationaly videos through Relay Intl (Dick Regan), and those videos were copyrighted Wahadamar, which was (and still very likely is) a private company owned by the Rawat family.
I guess lots of videos with the Wahadamar copyright on them are still around, and this could easily be traced in EV's and Relay Intl's accounts.'

BTW, this might be a good place for a reprint of a post from Joe (Fri, Jan 07, 2000) which puts the whole situation in a nutshell, IMO.

He says:

'In the past, probably through the 70s and into the early 80s, the non-profit Divine Light Mission, and later Elan Vital, violated the tax laws repeatedly by siphoning money donated to those organizations to Maharaji's personal use. I saw this with my own eyes, especially in connection with the plane project, but also in regard to other things Maharaji wanted. Mishler made it clear in his interview that DLM bough M's property in Malibu and spent a large part of its money on stuff M wanted for his personal use.
But I am fairly certain that those kinds of blatant violations have been cleaned up, and EV is careful not to jeopardize its non-profit status by doing those things. In fact, I would bet not all that much money even goes through Elan Vital. Certainly nothing like the millions that did when it used to be called Divine Light Mission. To disassociate itself from the violations of the past is part of the reason, I think, that the name was changed, and why Maharaji would like people to believe Elan Vital is different from Divine Light Mission, which it isn't; it's just DLM with a name change, legally at least.
So, because M realized he couldn't get away with siphoning the funds from the organization for himself, he gets money from other sources, namely, the following:

1. As we did when I was a premie, premies send money directly to Maharaji as a 'gift'. It doesn't go through a non-profit corporation, or anything else. The money is NOT tax-deductible for the premies who donate it, and whether M would have to pay taxes on any of it is questionable, as to whether it is 'income' and subject to income tax, or 'gifts' which are not.

2. Amtext Inc., and possibly other businesses give him money. Clearly, there is plenty of testimony from people on the forum that Amtext has given Maharaji large quantities of money over the years. In fact, Maharaji has supposedly stated that it largely paid for that palatial mansion in Malibu that he lives in.

3. Through indirect means, he may make money off the trinket bizarre at programs and sold through Visions. This isn't altogether clear, but he or his family may be part owners of Visions and hence share in the 'profits.' There may be similar schemes, ostensibly legal, concerning videos and profits from the satellite feeds.

4. Although Elan Vital can't legally pay Maharaji money directly, it can cover his 'expenses' for his attendance at 'events' that are officially sponsored by Elan Vital. This could include leasing the plane from another corporation directly or indirectly owned by Maharaji or his family from which they profit, paying his fuel, meals, living and other expenses in connection with such events, and a mirade of other 'expenses' that apply to him personally. This is probably technically legal, but kind of a gray area regarding what is a reimbursable expense under the tax code and what is income. Note that on M's website it is stressed that he isn't paid by EV, only has his expenses reimbursed by EV for 'events' which they 'sponsor.' This is stated for a specific purpose to emphasize that the non-profit isn't paying M an income and EV is totally separate and just sets up programs and 'invites' Maharaji to attend. In reality, we all know that EV doesn't do a damn thing that M doesn't tell them to do.

5. Premies, companies, and/or the organizations buy Maharaji things and property he wants.

6. He may have money from the past which he got from DLM and the premies that he has invested and is getting income off that.

So, although it's great that the corporate investigations take place, I would assume that those things have been pretty much cleaned up within the past 15 years or so. So, I wouldn't be surprised if not much was uncovered.
JW

Best of luck with the investigations!

Chris

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:39:06 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: WAHADAMAR and Dunrite
Message:
Good grief, Charlie Brown. Mighty tangled empire for something so simple, what was that again that was so simple? Oh ya, knowledge.
Thanks for putting this altogether. Geeze I wish I was a tax lawyer or detective or somthing useful. What a crock. All these premies all these years giving their hard come by cash to a multiCONglomerate.
Those instructors, especially the Indian ones, are never going to give this up and go back to a life of poverty or selling cars. The big inside EV'ers must be getting something more than ego strokes to keep them in this corporate sham.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:38:13 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Ego strokes can mean a lot ...
Message:
... especially to those who think they've transcended their ego.

Let's face it, what would your average Brahmin mahatma prefer to say: 'my car's a Porshe' or 'my guru's Hari (God) incarnate?'

It's all about one-up-manship and pretentions to divinity, isn't it?

Of course not. (that'll be $23,000 thank you).

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:26:44 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: All
Subject: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly
Message:
Not knowing how to bring this post up here, I hope ya all will know what I'm talking about. Lady Glasserly brings up an interesting point about the registered agent for the Rawat children's latest venture. Is it possible Maharaji is making money off Vision sales in the same or similar way?
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:48:17 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Cost of the 'conference' for big donators
Message:
with Rawat: $9,000

I've just got the info from one of my moles.

That doesn't include the trip, and the 'gift', of course !!!!!!!

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 22:27:43 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: That's nothing,compared to BIG donors
Message:
Bazza, when he was posting on EPO, told me that the official BIG donors program, consisted of those who gave a minimum of $50,000/yr.

This number was changed to $100,000/yr in the year 2001.

He said that there were about 150 people at the meeting, and probably each of them had a spouse or loved one with them, so the actual number of donors was probably about half of that, maybe 75 people...

He was filming the event...according to him, the funny thing was that when he went to get some shots of the crowd for the video, people started to hide behind papers that they put up in front of their faces, or actually hid under the tables when the camera went near them, as they didn't want to be seen on the video...

This Arizona thing is probably for the 'lower tier' of major donors...about a year ago it was in amaroo, and I think the starting point was about $5,000 per person...

Oh well, I guess there's one born every minute...

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:55:26 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Cost of the 'conference' for big donators
Message:
what conference? the one in arizona? what is purpose and content? more details please. thanks
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:32:52 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What? Donations Down?
Message:
Nine thousand bucks! Christ, nine thousand bucks!?

I am curious to know how many premies have canceled their regular donations to him/EV.

Nine thousand bucks. Guess we know who he's targeting for the $$!

Maybe he needs a new toy.

Maybe he's going to discuss our terrible ''hate club.'' LOL

I hope he's shitting his pants.

Thanks, J-M,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:31:47 (EDT)
From: MahaMoneyBags
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Wow!!Count Me IN!!(is toe kissing Extra?)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:59:03 (EDT)
From: bob lesch
Email: None
To: All
Subject: deca
Message:
this is actually in response to cynthia and gregg.

people were all told they were endangering their health due to exposure to toxic chemicals. i know they were because i was the one who continually told them. the people involved - guys all (except one woman named nancy who took a few precautions) all chose to be 'cowboys'.

it seemed odd calling 'm' the cient so i started refering to him as the boss - and still do to this day.

cynthia - you were not the only one who had trouble working for jim and guy - many of us did. and as for the food - i actually thought it was pretty good.

now the issue of sleep - yes indeed - people got stretched. most of it was by there own doing. you see the initail policy was for people to work 6 days, sunday was a complete off day to enjoy the beach or get extra rest or whatever they chose. and we were back at the broadripple fairly early each evening. the guys all pushed themselves past limits of exhaustion - as if they had something to prove. as time progressed - the people who stuck to the original schedule started to be released, or transfered back around the country. there were exceptions. those who had special skills remained no matter their schedule. and when the 'cowboys' stared to burn out, they started to get released as well. now i am not familiar with the workings of the office staff, most of my dealing w/ them were to process po's for my department - 'motor pool'. and i did everything i could to get around office visits after we moved from hialiah to miami.

as for health care - i went to a local chiropractor who also practiced keniseology twice a week in the beginning, down to twice/month when i left. lots of others went as well. as far as folks seeking/needing other kinds of care - all i know is that i provided lots of cars to folks going for 'doctor visits'.

we were adults! we needed to insure that our needs were being met. yet for some reason, i was constantly reminding people at deca and in the aqshram to take care of themselves.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:07:23 (EDT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: bob lesch
Subject: Bob, didn't I know you in Wash.DC?
Message:
Hey Bob-

I think I remember you in Wash. DC in the late 1970's.

Are you still involved with m and k?

Just curious.

BTW, my experience of DECA was that it was a total nightmare, the worst year of my life, and an experience that I would never wish on anyone.
I was tricked into going there, worked 60 hours a week for $160/week, left a successful career which I would now be retired from, and watched my health suffer tremendously, which I attribute to the toxicity and dangerous conditions of the shop there.
It was an OSHA nightmare, and many illegal things were done there.

I was appalled to hear Steve Sardoni say a few years ago that maharaji told himn that deca saved thousands of lives....did he ever comment on the thousands it disrupted, for a plane that maharaji didn't even want before it was finished, and ended up losing his shirt on, with all that premie labor going down the drain? (with all the other ramifications that came form it, like permanent health problems, divorces, debts, kids and parents living in sub standard housing, lost careers etc?

This really deserves an honest discussion sometime.
M used many people, and never once explained any of it to anyone, except to say that it wass a great success and saved lives.
As usual, his version of the story is regarded as gospel, and anyone who challenges it is 'in their mind' (modern day equivalent=they are angry or have emotional problems, or have a need to lie and hate maharaji).
This is transparent, and it is exactly this type of behaviour that enables people to see past the hype and finally see m for what he really is...

Please, let's not whitewash or romanticize that era...if it wasn't that bad for you, fine, but there are hundreds of horror stories that abound from there.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:16:17 (EDT)
From: bob lesch
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Re: Bob, didn't I know you in Wash.DC?
Message:
i used to go to your shop at the school to do wood turnings jim.
why did you leave teaching to come down to miami?
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:19:13 (EDT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: bob lesch
Subject: Bingo, Bob...that was it...
Message:
Hey Bob-

Yes, that's right, you used to come to the school I was teaching at in Northern Va.

Nice to hear from you...

Where are you residing these days?

If you would like to know a bit more about where I am coming from, you can read the letters that I sent to EV this year.
After EV refused to respond or post them, I posted them on the EPO site.
I think they are on the 'Best of Forum' or something like that, under letters written...something like that...
Anyway, the letters were supposedly forwarded to m's office....I asked to speak to him or communicate directly with him about them, but that never happened...

As you might surmise, I'm at a bit different place now than when I knew you about 20 years ago in DC...

Why did I go to DECA?
I never wanted to go to DECA....I loved my job in DC, and everything about my life there....I was called by DECA and told that M had a job for me....I was told that he personally knew about me and my skills, and that everyone was needed....I was also told nightly by instructors like Randy Prouty, Alan Imbarrato, Brian Mcdermott etc. that the lord was calling, and that the plane project was the missing piece of the puzzle in m's plan for world peace.....that's why I went, and after the first day, I realized what a huge mistake I had made...tried to get back into the school system (at that time, the highest paying county in the US), but no luck....out of guilt, and waiting for grace, I stayed for a year at DECA, bearing with, but disliking almost every moment of it (there were other things that made it bearable, like some good new friends I made, a few women I went out with, and the Florida surf and sun)...

Left Miami after 3-4 years, came to NC.

Anyway, that's a bit of the story...

Now, happily living on a small farm in the Chapel Hill area of NC....gave up teaching and counseling, built some houses for awhile here, but now am concentrating on making documentaries, mostly about environmental issues...some have been on PBS,some shown in NC museum of history, and different colleges etc....

Have even considered doing some kind of documentary on the m and k experience, but not sure that I would want to do it, or have the time to...

And how and where have you been?

Sincerely,
Jim

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:22:19 (EDT)
From: bob lesch
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Re: Bingo, Bob...that was it...
Message:
hi jim-

i got shipped out so fast - i never got to thank you for sharing your shop. it was a great time for me. in fact, it was a combination of the two things i make for M in your shop and a mixing valve i designed that got me sent to deca - then immco.

my time in miami was unlike anything i've seen from people on this site. M spent many hours in the auto shop at the complex. his workbench was about 50 feet from the 2 bays and benches where i worked and so i got to be around him quite a bit. he really is a thoughtful, respectful and dilligent worker. being in the position i was in, i got to see/hear the execs come and go for meetings each day. i gained tremendous respect for him there. i also learned how to circumvent beaurocratic systems. but,when we become an outside business and started doing comercial work, one of my 'collegues' turned me in for circumnavigating the purchase order procedeure and i was on a plane to portland, oregon.

got moved around a few more times for bypassing 'proper procedure' until i found myself in providence, ri where the ashram was about to close. realized i was unhappy one night while washing the dishes and moved out the next day - 12-31-82.

as far as my ashram experience - only my last 2 or 3 months were a pain because i was becoming unhappy.

i did partner up w/ a wonderful woman w/i 5 months when the rest of the ashrams closed and lived w/ her in manhattan for 3 1/2 years. became a pretty good woodworker along the way - which always pays the bills.

married, divorced, masters degree

been w/ the woman of my dreams for 18 months now. live on a 105acre lake in NW jersey, which is my main sorce of recreation and relaxation. resumed my practice of shiatsu and am studying many forms of asian and electro-theraputic medicine for the past 3 years. never became a good speller. and i practice the techniques about 10 hrs./week.

got lucky in this life. have had lots of good folks surrounding me my whole life. am thankful i get to enjoy my life and loved ones.

be well jim

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:18:02 (EDT)
From: bob lesch
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Re: Bingo, Bob...that was it...
Message:
hi jim-

i got shipped out so fast - i never got to thank you for sharing your shop. it was a great time for me. in fact, it was a combination of the two things i make for M in your shop and a mixing valve i designed that got me sent to deca - then immco.

my time in miami was unlike anything i've seen from people on this site. M spent many hours in the auto shop at the complex. his workbench was about 50 feet from the 2 bays and benches where i worked and so i got to be around him quite a bit. he really is a thoughtful, respectful and dilligent worker. being in the position i was in, i got to see/hear the execs come and go for meetings each day. i gained tremendous respect for him there. i also learned how to circumvent beaurocratic systems. but,when we become an outside business and started doing comercial work, one of my 'collegues' turned me in for circumnavigating the purchase order procedeure and i was on a plane to portland, oregon.

got moved around a few more times for bypassing 'proper procedure' until i found myself in providence, ri where the ashram was about to close. realized i was unhappy one night while washing the dishes and moved out the next day - 12-31-82.

as far as my ashram experience - only my last 2 or 3 months were a pain because i was becoming unhappy.

i did partner up w/ a wonderful woman w/i 5 months when the rest of the ashrams closed and lived w/ her in manhattan for 3 1/2 years. became a pretty good woodworker along the way - which always pays the bills.

married, divorced, masters degree

been w/ the woman of my dreams for 18 months now. live on a 105acre lake in NW jersey, which is my main sorce of recreation and relaxation. resumed my practice of shiatsu and am studying many forms of asian and electro-theraputic medicine for the past 3 years. never became a good speller. and i practice the techniques about 10 hrs./week.

got lucky in this life. have had lots of good folks surrounding me my whole life. am thankful i get to enjoy my life and loved ones.

be well jim

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:37:27 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: bob lesch
Subject: Your ''Recollections''
Message:
I don't remember you at all. If you were in charge of the motor pool, I probably did know you but can't place you.

As for your remarks about Deca. You have it completely ass backwards. Btw, I didn't have any problems with Guy or Jim. We got along quite well. Hession was very kind to me, as was Guy. It was Maharaji who was the demanding fool. He'd prance into the design room and look at renderings, etc. and say, ''no, do it over, this way.''

Bill said a lot below that I don't need to repeat, but he's got it right. I know this because I was there hearing all of M's demands which were beyond unreasonable.

I never got Sundays off, either. And to call the 'mostly male premies' cowboys...who worked night and day to meet guidelines for the Lord, well, that is such an insult to the people who slaved. This was a secret cult slave-labor company and I protected his identity.

Don't get me wrong. At the time I was in gopi-ville. I thought I had the best job going. But it was a cult. It was secret. Maharaji gave orders and we followed them to exhaustion, because we thought and believed he was protecting us. Turns out, he didn't give a shit about anyone but his big playground there at the complex.

He complained and complained and complained. Were you there at the little Hialeah warehouse satsang when he told everyone that we were not working fast enough, not working up to his standards, and not fulfilling goomraji's agenda? I was there, ten feet away from him. We were gearing up to move to the complex and he said we had to get going.

Were you one of those 'cowboys' (the carpenters and ruglayers) who converted the admin. section from a drab warehouse into plush offices in like no more than two weeks? No. you managed the carpool.

BFD. Maybe you got health care. I had some wisdom teeth pulled out. The only health care I received was from the doctor at the Broadripple when I started having migraines. He put me on some kind of anti-depressant which made me climb the walls. I took myself off of them.

You don't know jack-shit about what really happened at Deca. Motorpool coordinator. BFD. You got Sundays off. We didn't because we couldn't.

Your post is very inaccurate.

Cynthia
P.S. Besides everything else I had to do, I assisted Swan with her special projects (direct agya--whoopeee) which consisted of mostly painting portraits of Shri Maharaji, embroidering his krishna pants with gold thread, making malas for all the programs--this was done after our deca work was done for the day, in our broadripple room. It also meant that I had to drive her around (I didn't mind it at all) but the point is that she didn't drive and we wasted hours looking for do-dads, and gold and silk thread, often getting lost in the bowels of Miami during a time when riots were going on and it was unsafe.

And I also cleaned his offices, raked his rugs, and cleaned his toilets! Charanamrit, Yeah, Maharaji was a gem.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:24:00 (EDT)
From: bob lesch
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Your ''Recollections''
Message:
sorry you had such a bad time of it. i have lots more good to remember than bad about my time in miami.
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:20:09 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: bob lesch
Subject: DECA, an Acronym for...
Message:
D(id) (h)E C(are) A(tall?)

Bill, you miss the Point....From what I can hear, Cynthia, Bill and many, many other Premies at DECA (I was not there) worked Extremely Long exhausting hours under conditions that were not optimized for safety and probably at times unsafe. You say that you told premies to 'take care of themselves' while working at DECA. I believe you. But who was the 'BOSS' there? Who was the one that these exhausted Premies were Really listening to..for direction..guidance..and yes..ORDERS?

It was none other than MahaRawat. So the question becomes...What was Mahrawat's Guidance? What were MahaRawat's Orders? what were HIS Priorities?..What did HE Care About?..

First and foremost (as I'm sure you'll remember if you try) Back then MahaRawat's clear and direct message to Ashram Premies was that the Purpose of their Life was to Serve and Surrender to the Living Lord (Himself). ( I can elaborate if you wish). Thus any Orders and Direction that MahaRawat gave at DECA were, Im Sure, Given ABSOLUTE Priority by All those Premies Working there.

The Question then becomes..what orders did MahaRawat Give those at DECA????...Was It..Make Sure the Premies are Safe..and follow ALL Safety guidelines???....Make Sure they get enough Sleep and eat well and take care of themselves..Because I love and Care for them so Much???...

OR Was it..DO This Semi Impossible Task (for My luxury and Convenience) ...No I Changed My Mind..do IT THIS Way....And Have it Done..By YESTERDAY...That is My AGYA to Be Followed Impicitly......and THAT was the Priority and NOTHING ELSE not Premies Safety or Health or Well Being?...

I think I know the answer..and I think..if You have the Courage to HONESTLY look at the facts (shocking and disillusioning as they are) you do also, Bill....All the Best..RichMandrake..

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:57:38 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Re: DECA, an Acronym for...
Message:
I was there. It sucked.
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:48:57 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Great Acronym, Rich [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 09:57:51 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bob lesch
Subject: oh that tendency to paint things as if.
Message:
THere were no respirators lining the walls collecting dust in the
Paint and sanding areas.
We were not recklessly thumbing our noses at pesky health reminders.
We had gloves and respirators I suppose when we were all asked to work with MEK and wash plane parts and in fact the whole wings at the hanger and also at the complex.
I dont recall any catagory such as -adults-.
We were devotees and that was that.
We had no air fed respirators at the hanger till one day one guy ran out of the hanger doors and took off his resirator and said 'help me'
and m happened to be nearby and THEN we got an airfed system.
That was long after the 707.
If it was your job to handle safety issues at the complex and the hanger, then you were VERY bad at your job and are really out of line
dismissing all your lack of proper behaviour as oh what could you do?
You cant MAKE people act like adults and be safe.
How about the shop where gold plating was done?
Call that a safe environment?
How about the lack of gloves for all those working directly with
chemicals?
How about the welding shop? We all got to breathe the air from that as there was no fan system. How about all the people brought in to wash parts with MEK from the helicopter, the hawker sidley, the sanding dust.
How possibly do you state that we were not told to work 7 days a week and also nights and that facts are that we ALWAYS had deadlines that could not possibly be met without tremendous effort and time.
You are also wrong about the health care. Sure, there was a 100,000
dollar a year insurance, but there was no one coming around telling us
about how we could possibly benefit from it.

Why does your memory have such enormous gaps?
I could type more but I must leave at the moment.
Maybe in the office or wherever you worked there was some disconnect from the reality of the work.
But if as you claim you were responsible for safety, your disconnect is unforgivable.
Let me say something that should have been told to you way back then.
You are fired.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:32:56 (EDT)
From: bob lesch
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: oh that tendency to paint things as if.
Message:
my job wasn't safety - i just saw people practicing unsafe habits and pointed out there own actions to them. it was/is common sense to be safe and practice safe work habits. a lot of the people who worked at deca had no common sense.
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:59:43 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: oh that tendency to paint things as if.
Message:
Anyone know the name of that sister from the unventilated paint shop who got cancer, and someone else whom i didn't know who also did?
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 18:39:54 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: I would know her but not her name now.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:39:55 (EDT)
From: bill-just in case,
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: 'I suppose' means we didnt have them. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:03:44 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: well done, Bill (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:23:24 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ...
Message:
I will tell you about Satguru, and if you have any
questions or doubts in your mind, then you will repel
what I have said to you. Yes?

Shouldn't we give our devotion to God?

What is God?

Well, Guru is a personification of God in the
Earth, right?

I told you yesterday: Who is Guru? The highest
manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God
is here, to whom will you give your devotion? I want that
the general should sign some papers. I need not go to his
office when he is sitting in my home. Is it necessary to
go in his office when his is sitting in my home? When God
has come here, then what is the need to give devotion to
God there?

Why didn't Jesus say -- or does it say in the Bible
anywhere -- that He would manifest Himself again? For
future generations, so they could have a living God?

He has said, He has given you a hint, but you want
everything in a perfect state. He has given you a hint --
you don't recognize that hint.

In Mark, Chapter 13, he says that One would come
after him, not the son, not an agent, not a messenger,
but the Father.

I think in Srimad Bhagavat Gita, it is written that He
will come full, He Himself will come. That first when He
came, particularly to some places He saved; but now
because He will come to save the whole world, He will
Himself come, full.

Why so puzzled? It is a very fortunate thing for the
people of this age that He Himself, full, will come. Or
has come. Yes?

Doesn't it say He will come with a shout through
the clouds?

Not at all. Not at all. I came by airplane!
(laughter) When I came there were clouds, many,
many clouds.'

'So where are you seeking to give devotion? You have to give devotion if you have some devotion left. Because you just were wasting you devotion
into these materialistic things. You are a devotee of your wife sometimes, and wives are devotees of their husbands. Some were devotee of this wealth,
some were devotee of this house -- how many things! If you have some devotion left, then give it to the Guru.

Guru is that practical thing that can say: 'Okay, come on!' Light has got no hands to use. That's why, because we have got no words to put him in a
word, we say, 'Guru is the highest manifestation of God.'

Remember, Guru is God. Bigger than God. Bigger and bigger than God. They have said, 'Nobody in this world has been yet born who can describe
about Him, who can describe about Him.'

'So, see that if you want to give devotion, give it to Guru. Guru does not deal with us as father or as friend, but as children. As children.
Something happens to us; He takes care of that. How many medicines are there in this world? How many medicines has He created? So see, search in
God; you will find that Guru is the Supremest of all.

It is said that 'In a day I should bow many thousands, thousands, thousands, thousands, millions, millions and millions of times to Satguru.' Such a high
thing, such a high power, has come. 'I was seeking for God, but God has come in body! What can be higher and holier than that?'


Maharaji, Alta Loma Terrace,
Hollywood, California, August 15, 1971.

'Do you need me? I am with you.
You can't see me, though I'm the light that allows you too see me. You can't hear me though I talk through your voice. You can't feel
me, though I'm the power that works in your hands. I'm working within you though you ignore my paths. I'm working though you don't
recognize my work.
I'm not a strange vision. I'm not a mystery - only in absolute silence beyond the personality that you seem to be; and then only like a feeling and
like faith. Still I'm with you, still I hear you, still I can answer you.
When you need me, I'm with you and I help you. In the moments in which you think you only find yourself, I'm with you. Even in your fears.
Even in your pain, even when you meditate and when you don't meditate. I'm within you and you're within me. Only in your mind are the
problems of 'mine' and 'yours', but still only with your mind you can know and perceive me.
Empty your heart of ignorant fears because apart from your personality, in between, I will be with you. By yourself, you cannot do anything,
but I can do everything.
Though you cannot see the good - The good is there. Because I am there, because I have to be, because I am everything. Only in me
the world has meaning. Only when you are in me, the world will take it's true shape. Only because I am the law, in which rests the
movement of the stars and the growth of each living cell.
I am the love that is the fulfillment of the law; I am safety; I am your peace; I am everything. Though you fail finding me, I never fail finding
you. Though your faith in me is insecure, my faith in you never vanishes. Though you give your faith and love senselessly to others, My love is
only for you, because I know you, because I love you.'

(Maharaji, Speaking to IDP Group - February, 1982)

'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru
Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion
and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world.
Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of
humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are
already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the
Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......'

(quoted in the book 'Who is Guru Maharaji?')

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 20:06:58 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I beg you, please show me the quote!!
Message:
Surely with all your research and the fact that M is one of the most recorded people on the panet, finding a quote to support your claim should be easy.
So just post any quote with date and location of M saying 'I am God and you are not'.
Saying 'the Guru is a manifestation of god' doesn't qualify.
We're all manifestations of god.
Saying 'the guru is greater than god' doesn't qualify.
Because M means it in the same way as - what is greater to the dying man in the desert, the abstract worth of unavailable water or the person who brings them water and saves their life.
As I've said before, you're problem is not that you don't respect Knowledge, you don't respect any knowledge.
Facts and logic are ignored.
Analogies, metaphors and stories are taken as facts.
Gossip, hearsay and rumor are treated as sacred texts.
PT
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 11:52:20 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: You won't hear him say 'I am a Master' either
Message:
You won't hear him say the words 'I am a Master' either …

… but he's not exactly discouraging premies from thinking he is one, is he?

No doubt he's keeping his options open so, one day, he can deny that claim as well, - perhaps in a decade or two?

The point you're missing, PT (whether deliberately, or as a symptom of cult-induced myopia - who knows?) is that premies DID believe him to be God incarnate, i.e. the Saviour, - the Lord, - just as current premies today believe he IS a Master, even though you won't be able to find him saying so in actual print. His trick is to imply that he's a Master, just as he implied he was the one of whom it was said 'and a little child shall lead them'.

It's futile to pretend he didn't foster that belief system, PT. And it's abundantly clear that he did NOTHING to discourage premies from believing he was God. Quite the opposite, in fact (just as it's abundantly clear that you're obviously in denial about this).

If ever there was a biblical verse to describe your attitude, PT, it's the one about people who …'strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel'(Matthew 23 v.4)

Never mind, as the old saying goes 'this too will pass'
(you're gonna need a pretty big suppository, though).

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:59:25 (EDT)
From: RichMandraek
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: This is a Test...
Message:

[ Page Link ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:12:04 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: RichMandraek
Subject: Trying to Post a Link
Message:
from the EPO pages where MahaRawat States CLEARLY that God takes a HUMAN FORM..and Comes HIMSELF to Reveal this Knowledge....Well..I suppose he never in Public said I AM GOD.(but who the Hell else was he talking about??? Joe Anctil???..) I do personally remember him say Guru Maharaji is God...So...Of course you can rationalize ANYTHING but really PT...its ridiculous to try to convince anybody who was THERE That MahaRawat wasnt clearly implying...that he was the SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON..aka..GOD....Its probably useless even trying to talk to you about this...because...short of a Direct quote saying I AM GOD..you will have a rationalization...(which still totally amazes me)..but just about everyone..(maybe everyone) else who takes the time to Read MahaRawats Now Forbidden Past Quotes...Will Understand that he CLEARLY was Declaring that he Was GOD in a human Form...Thanks For Listening...RichMandrake
[ Page Link ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 12:51:43 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Guidelines to creating Links within a post
Message:
With a bit of luck, this should take you to a site which explains what a link should look like when you type it into the 'your reply' box. Don't forget all the carats, quote-marks and slashes though!

click here for detailed instructions

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 13:00:22 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Guidelines to creating Links within a post
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 12:58:21 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Guidelines to creating Links within a post
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:07:18 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Guidelines to creating Links within a post
Message:
type
your name for the link here
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:31:52 (EDT)
From: me again
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: test
Message:
type whatever you want to call the link here
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 12:56:20 (EDT)
From: all
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Re: Guidelines to creating Links within a post - message to JHB
Message:
Message to JHB:

Hey John, what happened to the "Forum Help page" on EPO - any chance of getting it back?

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 13:06:04 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Somebody help me! How do I edit message here? (nt)
Message:
that'll teach me to show off my HTML skills
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 20:27:04 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Your rationalisation is impressive
Message:
Yes, you're right. I remember well singing Arti:-

'We are the superior power in person'

Those are the right words aren't they?

I'll dig out more later, but try to rationalise Arti.

John.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 21:24:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: They're no better than holocaust deniers
Message:
Yes, John, arti is the perfect answer.

By the way, do we know for a fact that this guy is also SC?

Do we, PT? Are you SC? Are you honest? Do you lie? Do you lie here?

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:39:06 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I am not PT
Message:
If you look more carefully you'll notice that I am usually abrasive, rude and veer off into personal agendas and opinions.

While PT tends to stick to the specific facts and topics being discussed by you lot.

We're on the same page though.

At a rough guess, I'd say there's about 20 of us prem posters with identical perspectives, so confusion of identities would arise. That shouldn't surprise an old warhorse like you. What probably does surprise you guys is that us prems don't see the need to constantly boost each other's confidence via a plethora of backslapping posts to each other on the forums.

We're all individual units who stand happily alone on our own feet. Interesting difference to the gang like mentaility that prevails here, eh?

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 04:10:46 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: You're a liar, David Roup...
Message:
Passing Through, IP# 198.142.179.73 SC, IP# 198.142.179.79

Thanks Gerry!

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 12:10:24 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: The two numbers are different you Buffoon.
Message:
Come on, let's see the REAL IP# numbers exposed on this huge world changing critically important public internet forum...

....you big brave hero 'expose' boys.

Let's see how truly dumb you can get before Hotboards kick you off here for protocol breaching and PI fraud. That is, spreading false information about the identity and IP addresses of private users of a public forum.

I am not PT and I can prove it. So can he. I'm afraid the deck is stacked boys. The closer you (or the authorities) look, the prettier the picture gets for us. Bravado is a dumb game, really childish and totally embarrassing when you get it wrong.

Gerry, I challenge you to come clean with ALL the IP# facts pertaining to SC and PT. Don't publish them here or PT will do your ass I guarantee. But I want to see a public apology on this forum admitting (when you realise it) that you've fucked up.

Firstly, by making a wild, incorrect guess based on flimsy coincidence.

Secondly and much more seriously for an FA, by handing false information about people's IP# identities to a vindictive, known and publicly recorded cyberstalker.

Patrick Conlon has been stalking me for almost a year with threats to expose my 'real' identity. I have records of all his scaremongering attempts to intimidate me by threatening to 'out' my real name, including posting the name address and telephone number of a completely innocent party. I will tender them when required. I'm not the slightest bit concerned who knows my real name. But it is a private matter and a perfectly legitimate civil right to be able to use a handle, which I do. His behaviour is admissable harrassment and I've had enough. It's time to act.

Back up quick fast FA. Or you get roasted. It's up to you.

Your biggest fear Pat, is of being an irrelevant nobody.

Isn't it Mr Conman?

Sorry, but deep down I'll bet that little voice is still reminding you.

That that's exactly what you are.

So am I.

But when one is guilt free, fearless and RIGHT

Life's Great just as it is...

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:28:03 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: The two numbers are different you Buffoon.
Message:
The first groups of numbers refer to your ISP and your computer. It is like your phone number. The final group of numbers is variable and changes whenever you log onto the net. Anyone wishing to verify this can use ARIN to check it.

I know you are a writer and you seem to have blurred the line between the real facts and your fiction and between who you really are and the characters you make up in your imagination. In other words you are a liar and probably descending into the insanity that comes from blurring the distinction between truth and fantasy.

I would advise you not to post here because your posts reek of cult harassment and intimidation and can be construed as attempts to induce guilt in former cult members and lure them back into an immoral, solipsistic and mind-bending cult.

This forum is for EXPREMIES not cult apologists. Posts here by cult fanatics are seen by anyone reading them as cyberstalking and cult intimidation. I do feel sorry for you as you seem to have some good traits but your game-playing and lying really are infantile.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:06:47 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: This is getting funnier by the moment
Message:
It happened when you took on CW as well. Every panic stricken step you took only bogged you in more of your own doggiedoo.

'The first groups of numbers refer to your ISP and your computer.' Oh really?

Man, you must think I'm a ninny. Pat, stop. Slow down and for GOD's sake THINK before you say stuff like that.

Do you realise that what you are saying can and will be used in evidence? Let the records get this right now.....

The first group of numbers has NO bearing on the computer that is processing the data. IT IS NOTHING LIKE A TELEPHONE NUMBER

Any other IT geniuses care to correct me if I'm wrong?

Sometimes humility and admission of fault is the only way Pat.

The fear and confusion must be fucking killing you son!

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:26:44 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: I may not be an IT pro but I am not cruel
Message:
You said: ''The fear and confusion must be fucking killing you son!''

What a perfectly horrible ugly thing to wish or say to another human being. I really feel sorry for you.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 11:53:54 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: CD censored this on Life's Great
Message:
CD was explaining to Sylvia if she only shared how enjoyable her life was, everybody would be nice to her. Be positive, that sort of stuff. So I told him here's something positive for you, just bursting with energy, after which I posted your excerpt from Who Is Guru Maharaji. At the end of it I got a little sardonic bemoaning the fact that nobody ever celebrates the things Maharaji use to say. Instead, people make excuses for it, about how it was the fault of youth, or rationalizing it in some other way. But never celebrating it or remembering it fondly, instead trying, it seems, to forget that things like this were ever said. Wonder why that is. Why can't premies see how suspect it is to treat the words of the master as if they're an embarassment instead of as pearls of wisdom to live by? How are they going to feel twenty years from now about the things he's saying today? I wonder what kind of excuses they'll be making then? Do you think Maharaji will send out the word to burn all the videos? Anyway, the post is no longer at Life's Great. The words of the master have been censored.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:23:19 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: CD censored this on Life's Great
Message:
CD has also seen fit to delete my post (well, if he can delete his own master's words, I guess mine don't stand much of a chance) about SC, which, ironically enough, was entitled 'The truth is not your enemy'

QUOTE:
Not content with trying to re-write history, SC now attempts to re-define the meaning of the word 'modest'. (see his post below where he says:

'For his part, M' (I presume he means Maharaji) 'was most often extremely modest in his claims'.

Apparently the word 'modest' can now describe someone who sat on a spotlit throne 50 foot above his audience, wearing a jewel-encrusted crown and a highly-placed official (Mahatma Charanand) kissed his feet. This being part of an event described by Maharaji himself as 'the most holy and significant event in human history'.

If that's what humility means to you, SC, then you really should read Orwell's novel '1984' again.

You'd make a fine recruit for the Ministry of 'Truth'.

ENDQUOTE

I guess that whole LOTU scene is now just an embarassing reminder to both Maharaji and his premies.

It seems that their so-called 'Master' has yet to come to terms with his own past.

Let's face it, he can't even admit it happened!

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:02:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Another quiet, excellent observation, Jerry
Message:
Funny how you just kind of hang in there, no histrionics (unlike me at times), seeing shit. Good for you. Yes, you're right. Why DON'T premies ever celebrate Maharaji's history, up close and personal?
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:34:37 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Another quiet, excellent observation, Jerry
Message:
Yes, that certainly is an astute observation, isn't it?

Sure, the old days would look funky and hippiesh now, but shouldn't those old sayings and beliefs and quotes make all the premies feel nostalgic and dewey eyed for the 'good old m'?

It certainly is funny how those quotes are not even looked at in ANY way, except to either-
1-try and explain them away, as cultural or language 'misunderstandings'
2-pretend they never happened
3-pretend that the person never heard them
4-the most pathetic, and infuriating one....when the current day premies say 'Oh, I didn't buy ALL of that stuff, did you?'...You must have been a bit gullible (which by the way, is also YOUR fault)....

It's also interesting to see how in some of these newer videos where the original old days are presented, they are heavily edited and revised to portray m as not having presented himself the way he did....if anyone was shouting 'Lord' or something like that, it was some crazy hippy, but certainly not maharaji, because he never said he was the lord, right?

Thank God for all of those old divine times and old tapes the exes still have in their basements and attics....

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:24:25 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Yep,how M claimed to be God!
Message:
'I told you yesterday: Who is Guru? The highest
manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God
is here, to whom will you give your devotion?' - miragey
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:24:47 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ...
Message:
Thank you for finding all this. It is what haunts me to this day.
Evidently, all those years thinking I wasn't 'surrendered' enough
I was actually too surreneder, too opened, because these words went to the core of my being. They are still there. How long does it take to get separated from these words that were etched on our trusting souls?
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:35:28 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Oh, yes, that imprint on our souls
Message:
Hi BTDT,

any thanks should go first to the people (I know Jean-Michel's one of them) who typed up these quotes and put them on ex-premie.org, which is now a huge resource of info and quotes about the Maha.
Me? I just forwarded the info.

But as to your post.

Oh boy. You ask 'How long does it take to get separated from these words that were
etched on our trusting souls?'
Hmmmm, ... how long is history?

Aye, there's the rub.

It's all very well for M's spin-doctors to bleat 'move on; that was then; this is now' but for those of us who, in the early days, really took M's message to heart, the scar it leaves is not so easily forgotten.

M's denial of responsibility in all this can be summed up in two words: pathetic and repulsive. In fact, if there's one thing that marks him out in the history of the mass-manipulation of people's minds, it's the fact that he somehow got many thousands of people to believe that he was the one of whom it was said in the Bible 'And a little child shall lead them' and yet he's the same one who now allows EV to publish a disclaimer to the effect that he never promoted himself as the Messiah.

Well, I'll say this to the Maha (and you'll have to excuse my French): You fucking well DID. And it's about time you owned up to how much damage you did in the process.

To think that you, Maharaji, still have the audacity to deceive impressionable minds into thinking you're some kind of 'Master'. - Well, shame on you for denying your past, yet still attempting to 'have your cake and eat it'.

Let history have the last bitter laugh at your pretentions of divinity, MahaRaji, you King of Beggars.

sheesh ... and I thought I was over this ...

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:31:00 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Oh, yes, that imprint on our souls
Message:
Thank cq. That was a deliciously refreshing blast of truth.

That;s the way to deal with it btdt. Get it out of your system. Wash that man right out of your hair and send him on his way. Even if it means cussing him out or poking fun at him. Whatever it takes to get rid of that feeling of having been lied to manipulated and raped.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:24:47 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ...
Message:
Hi btdt,

I know how you feel. It takes time to re-wire the circuits of my though processes. When I think of the uncountable hours that I listened to satsang, listened to tapes, read his satsang, and ate it up whole, I have to give myself a pat on the back and say ''Well, done, Cynthia, you've come a long way out of that black hole of a cult.''

It does take time and patience. Lots of stuff still pops up. I loved Maharaji so much and believed everything he said. He's a liar and a conman. An actor. A charlatan. A fraud.

He is bad, you are good, btdt. If you need to use affirmations to reclaim yourself from his terrible programming, use them. Everytime you catch yourself thinking about him or feeling ill when those thoughts feel entrenched in your mind and heart. Just say NO MAHARAJI, YOU LIED.

Get angry. Shoot darts at a picture of him if you still have one (and can stomach putting one up. Take pictures of him and scribble all over it. Get out the anger safely. It's healthy.

Work on forgiving yourself for being dooped into the cult. It is so amazing to me now that I actually joined that (or any) cult--it's very unlike the real me to have been sucked in.

When I read on this board I am in awe of the intelligence of exes. When I think about it, Maharaji really wasted us on his hindu juju.

I still cannot bring myself to do meditation (err, excuse me, practice):) So I don't, because it's intrinsically connected to m for me and gives me the ickypoos.

Everyone's exiting experience is different. No time schedule.

There's no mix and stir method of existing this Maharajism cult. Maharaji certainly wasn't the panacea to life and now I am happy without him.

Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 04:13:28 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Fringe premies, church ladies, fanatical cultists
Message:
Jim asked the other day if there were only two types of premies in the context of the way they interact with exes here. There are those who don't discuss but simply disagree and resort to evasions, illogical rationalizations and outright lies. Then there are those who seem to listen to reason.

I tend to agree that there are broadly two types who post on cult-related forums: the good, honest and sincere guys either kick the gurujism habit or argue for a while and then disappear; and then there are the bad guys who seem to be maliciously opportunistic, cynical and dishonest.

If the good guys begin to see that Rev Rawat fits into the latter category of evil, cynical guys, they will leave. The bad guys know Rawat's dirty game and concur with him in his anti-social and immoral ways - but they are not rotten to the core and they are eaten up with the mental contortions and game-playing that they have to resort to in order to maintain their belief system unless they are real sociopaths and there definitely seem to be a few of those around - witness the anti-ex websites and a few nasty trolls who post here.

There at least two good guy premies who post on LG. Neither of them are cynical cult apologists. One of them I know personally. He believes in being honest and having a social conscience. I may not agree with his Hinduism but we live in SF and here we all agree to disagree and live and let live. We have to. There are too many conflicting minority groups here. You learn to judge a person by his character not his beliefs or politics or race or sexual orientation.

This premie is very much a typical fringe premie and was out of the cult for 15 years before I turned him back onto K about 4 years ago. (Yes, mea culpa.) But he disliked EV even more than I did and would not get involved with ''synchronized participation'' in the cult. His Hinduism is politically incorrect and an embarrassment to the church ladies who have ''evolved'' along with M.

I don't know the other good guy premie on LG personally but have figured out that he knows he has to remain honest because of his 12 step program. It does not work if you compromise the truth, live dishonestly or tell lies. I sometimes have thought that the reason why he is a decent guy is because of AA. He was addicted for many years despite having M and K. I wish he would entertain the possibilty that his life was turned around and is great because of his own efforts. He also has a slightly politically incorrect belief system about M and K but seems to be a bit more of a church lady than the first guy.

But church ladies don't often post on these forums. Some have tried but given up. Most of the church ladies that I know are also pretty uninvolved in the cult and are married, middle-aged, middle-class people who do the whole particiapation thing because they love the M that they see on TV and as a speck on a stage a few times a year and they enjoy K. To them it is a nice comfortable new age religion.

Last year, when I went back into the cult for a while, I met up with some old premie friends whom I had not seen in years and found that most of them were much like they were 17 years ago when I last saw them except to me it was now obvious that they had always been church ladies and were comfortable with a religion of waterfall and guru videos. The same guys did all the work like AV stuff. The same ones donated all the money. The same nuns of both genders were instructors.

But I also met a few new premies whom I had not known before because I used to be a fringe premie. Now I had returned as real cash cow church lady and suddenly I was moving in higher cult circles than I had ever moved before. These were the fanatical cultists. Suave, rich, cynical, selfish, cold, calculating. I knew some of their faces from the 80s. These were the guys who wore designer clothes to M events and gossiped with Charnanand and sat in the front seats because of connections or big donations. Most of them don't actually do ''synchronized participation.'' They leave that to the church ladies who don't have big bucks.

The guys who did the dirty work of setting up the anti-ex websites did it to impress these A-list premies because they are A-list wannabes. M is the topdog in the dog eat dog world of the cult and he draws up the A-list. (Pia was probably a sincere church lady who was cynically exploited by this bunch.)

The other dozen or so premies posting on the cult forums who toe the party line and spout the revisionist cult propaganda are not all bad or nuts or even A-list wannabes but the few who are leave such a bad taste in my mouth that I find it hard to listen to ANY cult apologists even the few sincere church ladies who stray in and leave quickly.

Sorry guys, but it's hard to hear about how M and K have ''evolved'' and that it isn't any of our business that he ''made a few mistakes which weren't really mistakes but a learning process and he really has got everything sorted out etc.'' If you make arguments in favor of the cult it means that you think that Mr Rawat's flexible (I'll be kind) treatment of the plain truth is not an unethical pack of lies.

The only reason that I can think of why people would think the cult is okay is because they are fringe premies who are so uninvolved that they don't know what's going on or they are so involved that they have something to lose. The only other possibility is that they are such lonely social misfits that the greatest thing going for them is the whole sterile and weird culture of ''propagation training seminars'' and futile ''synchronized participation'' which can never achieve any semblance of human warmth and naturalness because it has had all the spontaneity and democratic enthusiasm crushed out of it by the dogma that ''M must first approve of it.''

M and K may just be a joke and a game to these guys but to me he was the master without whom I could not ever go home and whose purity I should never doubt. When you realize that that is not the case and that the whole game is just a nudge-nudge/wink-wink joke then you feel soiled, dirty and fucked in the ass without vaseline. You feel used, raped and deceived.

Fanatical cultists of course cannot see this because their social identities and status and sense of self-worth and the very purpose of their lives are inextricably linked with M. They are desperate to protect that and will not hesitate to stoop to any form of intimidation.

Rev Rawat is THE topdog fanatacal cultist. Sure he's in it for the money but he is also very likely just as deluded by gurujism. Well, he also likes the pomp, power and adulation - that's probably what he is addicted to more than the money or the religion.

Fanatical cultists share in his sense of superiority and importance. The delusions of having the True Knowledge and knowing the meaning and purpose of life are heady drugs not easily kicked.

So, the church ladies don't post on the forums. The good guy premies seem mostly to be mavericks who aren't rich and may be muddle-headed but are sincere. Usually they are too boring and cliche-ridden to engage in an interested conversation. The mischief-makers, cacweasels and cult apologists are either oily A-list cynics or their wannabe imitators. I don't understand these people and have never liked them and take no pleasure in speaking to them as they make me feel dirty.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:15:49 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: r.e. LG premies
Message:
Except for 2-3 bad apples, there are also some nice premies at LG. I mean, only a lil more than a year ago, but for da grace of Allah, it coulda been some of us posting as diehard phelgms over there.

'The only reason that I can think of why people would think the cult is okay is because they are fringe premies who are so uninvolved that they don't know what's going on or they are so involved that they have something to lose. The only other possibility is that they are such lonely social misfits that the greatest thing going for them is the whole sterile and weird culture of ''propagation training seminars'' and futile ''synchronized participation''...' Righto.

Also, da patently feeble 'premie logic' is an auxi-moron (aka oxymoron). [because dat brain has been ritually denigrated to auxiliary or demonic status by da maha's Hindu trad incultcation].

breathing + using one's brain is really good -- for anyone. For premies, however, looking at the cult situation honestly and objectively is difficult, because of the mental conditioning and blinders effect; for dem, 'denial' is like a river in Egypt.

feeling that breath, that Brain, that healthy holistic bliss -- hohoho

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:20:06 (EDT)
From: Toette
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: You hit the ail o the head! nt
Message:
t
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:47:15 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Toette
Subject: Did you have an n-dectomy, Tonette?
Message:
But your missing 'Ns'' provided cute typos: ''Toette.'' Is that a footkisser? LOL! And hitting the ''ail'' on the head? Yep getting out of the cult is good for what ails you.
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:09:39 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: premiespotting
Message:
Thanks, Pat. As one who never looked back until this forum appeared, I am very appreciative of updates like yours. EV truly is a different colored horse than DLM.

Back in the late seventies, there were lots and lots of us lumpenproletariat premies: guru-worshipping foot soldiers a million miles from the Malibu mansion, with no hope of getting close to M outside of a darshan line. Absence made the heart grow fonder: we were able to keep our rosy-glasses image of the Lord unsullied by real info.

Now, there is too much real info available, and it takes a real act of desperate will to maintain a belief in God made Flesh (or, at least, flesh manifesting Spirit).

Your report on the dynamics of the twenty-first century version of Premieman made for some very interesting reading to one who will always be interested in the outcome of that very strange phenomenon of which we were once a part.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:10:18 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: PWKs are not premies, Gregg
Message:
I loved being a premie - just hated being a PWK. Aren't you glad you got out early?
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:10:36 (EDT)
From: BTDT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: YES!!!
Message:
Another vote for 'Best of the Forum' ! Well done. This has been a good week. Much intelligence MANIFESTING around these here parts.

You know, a person can watch and see this stuff but not understand what the hell is going on because it just doesn't jive with what we were steeped in for years and years and years. Maharaji's world was supposed to be 'for the weary and the weak', instead it's a corporate nightmare on acid. How does it last? One word......'surrender'. Catchy little word, that one. Surrender when you're being abused by premies, surrender when Maharaji makes no logical sense whatsoever, surrender when you learn yes indeed it's possible to buy a good seat at an event, surrender when you learn the lord of the universe drinks, smokes, has affairs, doesn't give a rat's ass about child molestation, surrender when you are badgered for money, surrender when you are guilt tripped and whipped into telling everyone you know there is this possibility (choke) of knowledge, surrender when the EV'ers use you and then make fun of you for speaking the truth and never apologize when they use your ideas, surrender when the lord of the universe who told you he was the lord of the universe tells you it's your fault for calling him the lord of the universe. What is the matter with you people around here, anywhere? Just surrrender! You'll feeeeeeeeeeeeeel better.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:08:15 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: BTDT
Subject: Now I want to hear your story, btdt [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 01:01:24 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Now I want to hear your story, btdt
Message:
Okie dokie but it's just fringe stuff. I'll try to write a short synopsis (sp- right word?).
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 04:19:51 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: I'm not interested in PAMs
Message:
I want to hear about the troopers in the trenches. I'm not in the cult so titles and status don't impress me. I think that you will find, the more you get to know the regulars here, that most of us are more interested in stuff that us ordinary premies can relate to.

Sure some would like to hear stuff from those who lived around Rawat but not me. I don't dislike him because he's fucked blondes etc but because he is a phony and fake who has fucked with our hearts and minds.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:58:23 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: BTDT
Subject: Pat and BTDT...both Excellente! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:38:56 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: great, Pat
Message:
Goddammit, Pat. You nailed down a whole truckload of 2x4's there. That shit is magazine ready. Best layout of modern fatboy toekissing culture I've seen so far. I felt like I was watching a two hour movie repleat with Pattie Hearst as a greying official of EV and Mark Wahlberg playing a younger version of Michael Nouri. You really captured the smell of the bathroom after the church ladies (male and female) made messy-poos. Eiuwwwwwwwwwwe!
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 06:02:55 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: EXCELLENT PAT !
Message:
what a great post.

The social structure and tensions within elan vital are anaesthetised and supressed by practice, holiness and desperation.

It is refreshing to see the WHOLE THING INCLUDING MAHARAJI AND KNOWLEDGE as a social construct - its so useful for everyone to seriously QUESTION whether the patterns of belief set up in maharaji's childhood are really doing us any favours now. No matter how synchronised and corporate the animal.. somewhere deep inside there is someone who knows better.

Something deep inside us all knew Maharaji's poetry was attrocious - and yet we trusted him and went along for the ride.

Trust is a key issue here - beacause it BINDS and BLINDS people to structures of thought which are not their own.. and to promote Trust as a FEELING, without ever supplying something to Trust.. is a very strong delusional tool

How can people in this subjective state see what is going on around them ?

In Nazi Germany, decent, sincere people got caught up in something, which had they had the chance to stand away from, they would have seen it for what it was.

THEREFORE the SUBJECTIVITY of 'Knowledge' is doing the Premies no favours at all. Next time you get a chance .. even at an event or more importantly at participation meetings or Trainings..Stand back.. Think, see and feel a whole different set of responses above and beyond the pavlovian conditioned ones of 'gratitude' and deep peace.

Knowledge is no big deal.. and it wont bring peace to the world. Sorry chaps. Its purely HIS TRIP you are playing with here.. and he doesnt love you.

Never did.

He is drunk on his own feelings... addicted to status. Its not a good way to be.

Where do you want to go today ?

Loaf

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:07:42 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this
Message:
I was out of premiedom for 17 years and when I went back last year I was stunned by the revisionism. During those 17 years I kept in touch with some premies but they were fringies like me. What I would like to hear is the stories of those of you who hung in there throughout the ''evolution.'' How did the revisionism just creep in?

I can imagine that the loyal church ladies just swallowed whatever came down the EV pipeline and were told by the A-list premies that ''this is what M wants - he wants you to hand in all your old pics of darshan and any printed or taped mention of him saying he is god etc.''

I was not around during the bookburning period and had a lot of old politically incorrect stuff. Now I can kick myself for getting rid of it when I left 8 months ago.

Anyway I would love to hear the stories of those of you who hung in there for the past 20 years.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:22:59 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this
Message:
revisionism started around 1983/4.. although in truth the seeds of it began when he had his hairs cut in 1980.

The ashram closure was put accross to us new premies in 1983 as a 'new beginning' - and then in 1985 darshan was queitly dropped. I was at an event in miami in '85 when he got shirty about people asking him to dance again.. and I think a lot of it had to do with his pilot status and corporate executive mindset, surrounded by advisors and 'suits'.

He dropped the Guru around this time.. and the second j - and even contemplated using Prem Rawat for speaking engagements.. and gradually we were asked to stop speaking.. satsang was abolished and videos and 'authorised speakers' were provided to toe the party line.

In birmingham 1985 he showed a film he had put together.. it was called 'evolution' - and really that whole period addressed the issues of letting go of the past, but sticking with him and not gettting left behind

I was around instructor conferences in the late 80s and was aware of a lot of very unhappy 'hippie' premies who had not made the transition to 'events' from 'festivals' and who didnt like the new style of things.

He started hosting dinners where we all gawped and ate.. black tie... and gradually the social tone of elan vital changed, from a free for all, to an exclusive, controlled, sleek, corporate function.

The ones who got left behind were generally those who did menial service or none at all.. most ambitious career premies found some niche.. there were endless meetings..and so the absence of nightly satsang and all the community feel was gradually replaced with a Regan/Thatcherite yuppyism - and those who didnt buy into it were to some great extent left floundering.

By the early 90s M had quite simply re-invented himself.. and anyone calling him Guru Maharaj Ji was clearly marked as someone who wasnt in touch..and therefore a bongo or a potential security issue at events.

Security gradually became 'steward' - and events were controlled - more importantly we controlled ourselves.. the 'in crowd' were up to speed with M's terminology and view of himself and his work and the way he wanted to be perceived, but if you weren't.. then you needed tuning or bringing into the fold.

The whole tone at this time was 'this is maharaji's game, not ours, and we must play it his way.. its his knowledge, his event, his video... etc etc'

Written publications ceased in 1982 (in the west.. India was always different).. and music tapes became 'non-explicit' such as Oasis of Love and Fire in my heart etc which did not name him.

Indian terms and hindu trappings were frowned upon.. huge pictures of him were discouraged, altars dismantled, and arti trays relegated to catching crumbs under toasters.

Ashrams and premie houses split up.. (DIVIDE and CONQUOR)and when premies did come together, it was very much on his terms.

I hope that gives a flavour of the 80s...knowledge lite years. It was gradual really - I didnt realise how far things had changed until sometime in the 90s I listened to an old tape (from which we were dicouraged) and it sruck me how 'explicit' maharaji was pre 1984 - after which he changed his tone to an expansive, inclusive, non specific slant on life.. and he did not address the issuees of community and master and devotion to him other than to say 'it is an individual connection between him and you'.

This divide and conquer tactic effectively stopped us thinking or talking amongst ourselves, to have said that you thought things were better int he old days would have been heresy - but moreso it would have made a fool out of yourself.. to criticise maharaji was to doubt him...

thats enough for now

Loafie

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:22:11 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this
Message:
Man, that really brought back some memories for me. I was living in L.A. when nightly satsang was discontinued at the Loyola Theatre. I think it was '82 and satsang was moved to the ashrams in Westwood, Westchester, Van Nuys and Santa Monica. It was a tiresome juggling act to get satsang every night.

I was no longer friends with any premies. I'd moved from Honolulu to Miami in '79, and to L.A. in '80. I wasn't aware of it at the time but the reason I'd left Honolulu was to escape the subtle oppression I'd boxed myself in with. I had developed a character who played a role; the premie who was devoted. I couldn't stand it any longer but I was conflicted between what I saw as duty and the freedom I wanted.

I kept going to satsang in Santa Monica. It was held only twice a week. Because I wasn't really friends with anyone, I had no idea of the changes that were happening. All I knew was that I felt abandoned when satsang was scaled down.

A few months later, or maybe a year later, I remember there was no more satsang at the ashrams, and I remember vaguely hearing they'd closed (or something). But not being 'connected', the impact didn't really hit.

The only satsang available then was in a small stuffy conference room at a hotel in Santa Monica, and you had to call an answering machine to find out when it was held. It was 'introductory' satsang so it was absolute pablum. It was also very bad satsang, and I know you all remember that. Fingernails on a blackboard.

I remember going to one of those fancy dinners, probably around '85. The whole thing was absolutely dumb, and it was one of the most awkward evenings I'd ever had.

By the time I left L.A. in '86, it had become so boring, I rarely went to satsang. I'd see maharaji once or twice a year, in Long Beach or downtown L.A. The whole thing had lost its soul and I was just hanging in by a thread.

When I moved to New Mexico, Satsang was once a week, I think. It was also pretty bad satsang, and now there were part time initiators. Up until that point I had looked up to initiators and thought they had at least earned their stripes. The woman in Albuquerque who was an instructor was completely faking it. It was like Dubya Bush being president. One time I asked her for a ride to a little intro program being held in Santa Fe, and she tried so hard to weasel out of it, but I wouldn't let it go and she begrudgingly took me in her little Toyota. It was so obvious I'd upset her little Barbie-doll version of being a princess initiator.

The final straw, the very last drip was in '91 or '92 when I went to San Francisco to see maharaji, and all the seats were taken in the auditorium. Some drone premies ushered us into a conference room to see a video feed. The whole thing was so lifeless, and it was so easy to just quietly drift away from my involvement.

I remember seeing maharaji for the last time in '93 or '94, again in San Francisco. I took some friends and this time I saw it through their eyes. All I can say is I was embarrassed.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:52:31 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Many thanks Loafie
Message:
Of course I'd like to hear more.
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:45:12 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Me, too...More, please
Message:
I had been away during the revisionist years and when I went back for a short time no one would tell me anything about how the transitions took place nor how they felt about them.

It's all in Maharaji's plan is the answer I'd always get.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 15:35:43 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The ''Evolution'' video Loaf mentioned...
Message:
... was one of the videos we owned. We donated it to the premie community library, where one of the churchladies made it ''disappear''.

The video was all about how M was modernizing, with his new jet, and the corporate look, and how all of this was NECESSARY, for him to be able to spread K throughout the world. It was the begining of the slick corporate stuff, the begining of what we used to call ''yuppie crap'', and we didn't buy videos for a long time after that. The video's are still slick now, only more polished.

It's interesting how they've taken that video out of circulation. Does the new revisionism, the lastest version of The Truth, now claim there was never anything to evolve from?

I sometimes wonder if the lies and revisionism aren't the biggest factor in making people turn to other souces of information like EPO, and start asking questions. I know the obvious revisionist lies made me start asking questions more earnestly.

Hi Cynthia, how did the move go? Are you all settled in? Are the Kitties adapting o.k.?

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 13:08:46 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: The ''Evolution'' video Loaf mentioned...
Message:
I've still got a copy. I didn't know it was supposed to disappear!
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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:50:05 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: So! Maybe M did use the forum eh?
Message:
Hi all! Fran reminded me the other day that my post a ways back wasn't to far off after all! The Cac attack comenced, and surely it was due to all the info and babling back n forth around this place. I specificly said that M would find a way to use this forum against you. Look whats happened in the last month eh? I'm not trying to rub nothing in, but sometimes I feel like anybody who posts, who was not a premie before isn't taken seriously at all....just my feel on the scene is all! Anyhow, maybe I'll hang around for a bit. La la la la lala la.....
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 02:46:15 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: THIS COULD BE MY FIRST 'FLAME' !!
Message:
Barry.. taking someone seriously is all well and good - but when you post adolescent rubbish like this.. I wonder if it even merits a response.

Francesca seems to credit you with some intelligence, but I suspect she is a diplomatic soul.

What do you want ? Why are you here ? Do you feel that as an 'outsider' you have a special point of view ?

well.. if you do, let us see it. You seem like a friendly and delightful teenager.

All the best.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:04:49 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Oh Loaf...!! We are all misty. Cngrats!! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:29:07 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Just call me Bobby Brady!
Message:
Sorry ya feel that way.
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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:14:06 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: How are you Barry??
Message:
How are you doing guy? You seem to have had quite a few ups and downs these past few months. Hope it hasn't affected your blood pressure too much. Got any new friends, not anybody in particular, but perhaps new, like somebody who was angry at you, but isn't anymore? Somebody you've been doin stuff with and the like? Just wondered.
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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:21:10 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Also...
Message:
Been to any good 'events?' Did they let you sit up close and everything? Seen any celebrities? Did you get to talk to them? How is your diet? Getting enough sleep? Getting enough exercise? Have you tried zinc tablets and bee pollen? Does soy do anything for you?

How are your cats? What are their names? Any of them named Chucky Cheese or maybe Borsh? Good names. I have a Dalmatian named Nigel. He's a good guy, but getting on in years. Dalmatians shed a lot you know, sometimes you have to look real hard to see what's causing that. You have to look into it very, very carefully, so you know, you know, why he's shedding so much and what you might do about it, and sometimes that's expensive, but I'm committed to do it and it' worth every penny, because you have to find out, I say. Sometimes you have to call in experts, even. But he's doing fine. Doesn't like cats, though. It's a real problem sometimes.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:50:40 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, I think this Jim's friend, not Bazza [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:59:36 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Isn't Bazza Jim's friend?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:04:58 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: This is Barry Clarke, Jim's friend
Message:
Joe, that Barry is Barry Clarke, Jim's musician friend from Canada. He's at
http://acousticoutlaw.tripod.com/page2.htm

By the way, some of his tunes are great!!! I just downloaded It's Only Furniture and Cowboy Angels yesterday.

He had said a while back on the Forum that he thought we were showing too many of our cards, and that M would use all our good work on the forum against us. He was trying to be supportive of Deb, who was starting to get Forum involvement overload. I thought he was wrong.

Turned out it was very prophetic indeed. He's never been a premie. All he knows about it comes from what's he's read and heard.

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:37:46 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Hi Francesca and HI Barry you troublemaker ;)
Message:
Barry, How ya doing?
I love your music by the way, encourage others to give it a listen. When are coming to Victoria, I'm looking forward to meeting you?

Francesca did Barry give you a link to the free CD? Lots of good tunes. I've been busy lately, how about you?

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 02:19:35 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Hi Deborah (OT)
Message:
Yes he did give me the link. Been enjoying it. Been busy too!

Love, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:12:28 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Hi Francesca and HI Barry you troublemaker ;)
Message:
Hey Deb! I'm fine. I don't know why I did it? I guess if you look at Joe's post at the very bottom ( the 1 I posted Blind Joe to), well his reply sez it all. Vain, unforgivable, ego-driven back door runaway reply if you ask me. Don't know when I'm comen home. Soon me hopes! E mail me for some chit chat OK? Thanks for the support on the music. I'm in the middle of producing my 2nd CD, so I'm just trying to get interest up again to the 1st one. later Deb.
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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:01:50 (EDT)
From: Thanks Fran
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: But keep ya day job Barry
Message:
best ta lern howta play de guitar before commiting to CD mate.

makes a great 'ex-premie' soundtrack though, miserable as fuck!

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:22:42 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Thanks Fran
Subject: Yo! Joe Satriani
Message:
What-ever! If you love Eddie Vanhalen, well woop de doo! I like simplistic guitar-so what! Lets hear your CD Joe Satriani. Miserable?
Guitar rock is miserable buddy!
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 14:14:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: Yo! Joe Satriani
Message:
You know, I'm sure that in real life Joe Sartriani's just a great guy. He's probably a pretty good guitar player too, I'd imagine. But somehow he's just so funny here. 'Joe Satriani' ... can't help but keep laughing.
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 08:28:20 (EDT)
From: Ok Dude!
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Actually I liked the simple style
Message:
of your playing. Disciplined, humble. I always over do it by playing way too much fancy 'expressionist' shit. I listen back to a take and go, 'yea, great for the first 16 bars, then fuckn boring show off crap.' Joe Satch's new album gets like that, I mean how much perfect technical wizardry guitaring can a dude stand?!!
At least Eddie breaks his shit up with a few mediocre songs.
Good luck with the new album Barry.
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 13:19:46 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ok Dude!
Subject: Barry!
Message:
Last night we jammed with December from Purr, Al, who played guitar in Purr (and Subtitled as well as a bunch of other shit). Beezon. Mason. It was great. Too bad you couldn't get to town this time.

Hey, where's Yvonne? Boz and Mocha had a vicious one the other day. Mocha got a piece of Boz's ear apparently (Cam was there). Sometimes they almost seem to accept each other then this shit happens. You know? Cat's today! It's not like when I was a kid.




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