Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 07, 2001 To: Sep 13, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


suchabanana -:- On Dogs, Collars, and Chains -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:29:28 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: On Dogs, Collars, and Chains -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:52:08 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- But doggies give good darshan -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:58:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: But doggies give good darshan -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:57:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Re: But doggies give good darshan -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 19:55:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Life's a bitch - so get a doggie -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:03:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- seriously, Steve -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:39:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Couldn't agree more, such -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:10:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- yes,kindness extends to creatures/nature,too -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:01:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Beauty, bounty and blessings -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:13:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Four legged darshan... -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:58:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Rawat's boxer -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 18:14:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- Rawat's boxer's too big fer his bitches -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:47:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Rawat's boxer's too big fer his bitches -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:15:47 (EDT)

btdt -:- teleport -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:27:50 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Voila: Such's Life ith Great -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:34:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- Pleath, I m unworthy -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:55:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Pleath, I m unworthy -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:53:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- premonition has become reality already -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:34:55 (EDT)
__ Messenger of the Gods -:- Re: teleport -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:34:52 (EDT)
__ __ MOG Again -:- Re: teleport -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:36:29 (EDT)

Gregg -:- Rev. Moon Ji -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:21:36 (EDT)
__ DeProGram Anad Ji -:- Re: Rev. Moon Ji -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 02:19:36 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Not a bad idea. -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:00:10 (EDT)

Jim -:- My apology to Holocaust Deniers -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 13:06:26 (EDT)
__ Ulf -:- Rich Neel ,,, 1978 -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 18:16:50 (EDT)
__ __ Carlos -:- Thanks, Ulf. I know you didn't post Rich's -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:31:09 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: Rich Neel ,,, 1978 -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:58:16 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Cult fanatics are liars -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:50:22 (EDT)
__ __ SC -:- Desperation sets in... -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:53:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You're a masochist, David -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:09:50 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Look Who's Stalking -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:35:47 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- Or rather: Cult fanatics say what they told to say -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:23:27 (EDT)

Does this sound familiar -:- Group Affirmations -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 06:32:45 (EDT)
__ **** -:- Re: Group Affirmations -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 06:25:16 (EDT)
__ cq -:- Re: Group Affirmations -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:37:18 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: Group Affirmations -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:55:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Jeez, I read that word the same way ... -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:29:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- channeling Hyacinth Bucket -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:06:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: channeling Hyacinth Bucket -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:00:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: channeling Hyacinth Bucket -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:21:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Hyacinth Bucket? - fouquet! -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 06:35:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- channeling da Honey Bucket.oy vey! [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:54:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Group Affirmations -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:09:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Carl -:- I actually Laughed Out Loud -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:23:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: I actually Laughed Out Loud -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:24:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: I actually Laughed Out Loud -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:04:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- We could do a collaboration on AG -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:25:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- We could get Tom Cruise -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:46:21 (EDT)

Dirk -:- Whatever Happened to Rennie Davis... -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:46:29 (EDT)
__ Loaf (You know you have -:- arrived when you have a SYNDROME named after you ! -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 03:05:11 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- oh great. a name for what hooked me -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 06:49:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ michel donner -:- Re: oh great. a name for what hooked me -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 10:48:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- yep, same news reports -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:41:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Aw fuck it...(ot) -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:48:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian smith -:- Re: Aw fuck it...(ot) -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:25:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Re: Aw fuck it...(ot) -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 18:40:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Aw fuck it...(ot) -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:04:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Greetings, Anth the apostate -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:09:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hi Fat Fag. (ot) -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:56:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I love OTs but yes you better email -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:07:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- 'wild', is that a STD? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:06:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ RichMandrake -:- Donner.thanx..how bout Bill Patterson? -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 12:04:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Re: Donner.thanx..how bout Bill Patterson? -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:00:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Re: Donner.thanx..how bout Bill Patterson? -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:55:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ RichMandrake -:- So Sorry to hear About Bill Patterson -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:57:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: So Sorry to hear About Bill Patterson -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:25:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- About Bill -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:55:55 (EDT)
__ Rennie Davis... -:- died an ex - do a search [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:00:50 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- i doubt he's dead. any proof? -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 06:54:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ I heard he died of a -:- heart attack in the 80s -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:05:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::RD alive in 1996:: -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:54:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: ::RD alive in 1996:: -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:32:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Like I said - -:- read the links on Google below - -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:16:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PS - around '98 -:- hit by a car crossing a street I think [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:17:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ XXX -:- That was Gerry Rubin -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:41:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ You're right! -:- Sorry - got mixed up! Thanks. [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:14:13 (EDT)
__ __ Dirk -:- nope.did Search.nothing (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 02:27:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Google -:- search on Rennie Davis -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 02:48:10 (EDT)

salam -:- how does that look? -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 22:03:51 (EDT)
__ **** -:- Re: how does that look? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 06:32:38 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Rin yure spall chucker (tn) -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:50:11 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Rin yure spall chucker (tn) -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 19:32:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- salam salam -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:08:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Now I'm a flat tire! -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 01:13:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: Now I'm a flat tire! -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:22:56 (EDT)
__ silvia -:- Great job! -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 02:53:19 (EDT)
__ such -:- ok, 'cept 4 -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:53:16 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: ok, 'cept 4 -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 04:01:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- well,I m a mac daddy -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:43:24 (EDT)

Jim -:- If someone doesn't say something fast -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 14:15:23 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Les Francais. -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:52:09 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Mao Tsetung -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 18:21:42 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Re: Mao Tsetung (ot) -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:13:59 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Mao Tsetung -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:10:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- The White Hair Girl -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:16:37 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Don't believe me, eh? -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 14:26:34 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Something Fast...okay? -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 17:24:36 (EDT)

Jim -:- SC? PT? Could it be ........... ??? ....!! -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 13:49:14 (EDT)
__ SC -:- Err....Knight 6 to King 4 Jim -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:05:20 (EDT)

Bai Ji -:- Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 02:24:20 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Welcome Bai Ji - great post -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:28:03 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:38:12 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Hi Bai -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:00:36 (EDT)
__ WMary -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:42:27 (EDT)
__ janet -:- you're a good you! -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:08:21 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:42:52 (EDT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- very Clearly stated btdt -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:40:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: very Clearly stated btdt -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:47:28 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- That's the truth, btdt -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 03:48:21 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- This thread is ***BEST OF FORUM*** -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:38:41 (EDT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Good Morning, Bai Ji -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 19:06:03 (EDT)
__ Cl -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 16:05:48 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:20:56 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Welcome Bai Ji and CL -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 19:58:13 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- You sound tres cool, fool -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:14:09 (EDT)
__ silvia -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 07:03:31 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 05:57:40 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Awakening -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 15:55:55 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- You guys are really what it's all about, huh? -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:07:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- yep, ain't it true! -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:05:34 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 02:55:54 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:15:47 (EDT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 11:52:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:29:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Donner, this post floored me -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:18:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- The Cultural Revolution Within. -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:17:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Donner -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:19:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I can relate -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 13:12:16 (EDT)
__ __ Loaf's biggest fan -:- WOW !! WHAT A FAB POST LOAF ***(nt) -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 08:49:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Yes it was FAB -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:51:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Chuck S. -:- It IS a FAB post... -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 14:58:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- awww.... -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 16:43:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bryn -:- Owning it -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:03:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: Owning it -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 08:35:30 (EDT)

btdt -:- just a giggle -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 00:42:06 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- Can I Place an Order? [nt] -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 05:40:33 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: Can I Place an Order? -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:29:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ link -:- Re: Can I Place an Order? -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:48:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ link -:- Re: Can I Place an Order? -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:46:31 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:29:28 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: wernotdogs@freeatlast.org
To: All
Subject: On Dogs, Collars, and Chains
Message:
Q: Is it true that if for some reason the disciple leaves the Master, that the Guru will never desert the disciple?

A:'If he is a disciple. And you don't become a disciple just by taking Knowledge. You become a disciple when you do meditation on it. If you are doing meditation, you can't be away. Dog's chain -- dog wants to go there, he is free to go there. When he sees him there, master does like that (pulls on chain). So you can be -- that is just if you are doing meditation regularly. See, dog thinks that 'Yes, I am free. Now I can run.' He runs, but chain is there; master pulls. Yes?' - Prem Rawat aka Maharaji

'Servant or Slave? - The servant is his Master's dog!' - Shri Hans ji Maharaj, from his book Hans Yog Prakash

See, to maharaji and his family premies [aka disciples] are subhuman -- dogs.

Do you remember miragey's public discourse in the mid-1990s about his dog messing up his lawn on the estate of the Malibu mansion, and how 'stupid' dogs are to miragey? [He even did a thilly lil' pantomime, mocking his own poor dog.] Clearly, da Rawats hold premies at that same bestial level of esteem [or lack thereof]. Now, are the Rawat gurus, er massas, correct in their imperial assumption that people who follow, trust, and believe in them are stupid dogs, their slaves/servants, perhaps?

hmmm. dat's food fer thought... fer sure!

To all lurking premies + aspirants: Take off the doggie collars. Then, you won't get yer chain pulled! Without that doggie collar and those chains, you Are Free. No earthly massa can control you.

Miragey wants you to think there is no escape from da dog warden and massa's pound, and that if you breathe in consciousness you are under his power or voodoo spell -- well, that's blatant superstitious ladus, my dear brothers and sisters. We weren't born with chains or dog collars on, after all.

The only chain we carry within is the chain of that moving breath of life, that spiritus [Latin for 'breath'] that gift from da universal energy operating all existence -- unless we become weak, seduced, or choose to be enslaved in our own minds to some earthly human power.

So, breathe Freely, my friends. That breath consciousness, that spiritus is ours, not the property of any other deluded person's to manipulate or lay claim upon. For anyone to even imply, let alone assert, that they control others when they breathe or look and listen within themselves is very very sick, indeed.

WE ARE FREE! So, Please Wake up, dear premies and aspirants from da incultcated dream. Take dat power and da mental reins of yer life back. Trust within yerself, not the brainwashing and da mind-numbing external hypnotic suggestions of da voice of a self-proclaimed massa. We were not born 2B slaves -- but FREE!!

Yep, dere's no place like om, dere's no place like om,dere's no place like om,dere's no place like Home. hehehe [om, i.e. an operating mentality]

lotsa love, und
Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:52:08 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: On Dogs, Collars, and Chains
Message:
Such a great brain, Swami Suchabanana!

I honestly know of a premie who gave k up from the doggies are stupid discourse you mention. She said something to the effect that
if he, maharaji, and this knowledge was supposed to be about love and bliss, then why all the crass mocking of little animals? She was so disgusted at the immature ugliness he displayed, that was it for her!

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:58:01 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: But doggies give good darshan
Message:
Doggie Darshan

And, check this out if you haven't seen how YOU TOO CAN BE SATGOOROO

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:57:36 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: But doggies give good darshan
Message:
OH CRIPES!!! I AM ROTFLMAO BIG TIME!!! What a howl!!!!! Finally, some oxygen to my brain!
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 19:55:40 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: But doggies give good darshan
Message:
I broke up with my girlfriend yesterday and was rather despondent since. I went to visit my previous girlfriend today, my buddy's dog Cashew. Your post is very timely and appreciated. I told the ex-girlfriend yesterday that I was getting more love from her landlord's dog than from her. Oh well. Life's a bitch.

Steve

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:03:55 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Life's a bitch - so get a doggie
Message:
Nothing like that wagging tail to greet you as you come home to make you feel great and put everything in perspective. Sure beats being the Massa's dog.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:39:56 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: seriously, Steve
Message:
you sound lonely and sad. once you have a fairly stable place to stay at, consider getting a pet companion. like, a cute lil' pup or kitty. as long as ya feed 'em and don't abuse 'em, they give back love unconditionally. very therapeutic (according to da experts, anyway).

Even after all this time
The sun never stops
to say to the earth:
'You owe me.'
Look what happens
with a love like that -
It lights up the whole sky.

-- Hafiz

Peace and lentils, brother,

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:10:31 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Couldn't agree more, such
Message:
having a living being to care for and feed and look after quickly takes the mind off one's own troubles. Stroking a pet releases tension, lowers blood pressure and (according to the Chinese) can even remove pain.

I adopt special needs dogs, blind, deaf, old, lame etc. Actually they are even more special because they make up for their handicaps in cleverness and personality.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:01:47 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: yes,kindness extends to creatures/nature,too
Message:
I have no domesticated pets right now - but the birds outside sing along with me, the bees busily sip nectar from my flowers, the stray lil' cats prowl like wistful tigers through the bushes, the groundhog tunnel engineers make mounds of dirt in the yard, and occasional curious deer come and visit and peer at me peacefully with their large watery brown eyes. The raccoons and cranes ate all my pretty fish, but I guess they were simply hungry.

Perhaps one day I may adopt a lil' puppy or kitten, too. But the butterflies and songbirds grace these woods. Just the other day, I heard and mimicked the song of a flock of birds that warbled the first 4 notes of Beethoven's 5th symphony - in staggered harmony [like a round, the birds and da lil' swami singing blissfully]. such sweet joy, such pleasure in the first faint changing of the colours of the leaves, the shifting glimmer of sun-dappled greenery, the breath of the wind playing the wind-chimes, the rush of nearby cascading waterfalls. Ah, what bounty what priceless magnificence resides before our disbelieving weary eyes.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:13:13 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Beauty, bounty and blessings
Message:
Life certainly is wonderful. Thanks for that picture of you in your garden. that's my favorite place in my home.

I've been enjoying your blessings at the end of your posts. Now if only Rawat had ever realized the power of words and affirmations of beauty and bounty instead of yakking on about his watches and criticizing dogs and putting messages of fear and guilt into our minds about rotting veggies etc.

It's wonderful to be a fakir, a beggar - but not at his greedy grubby feet.

To be in awe of this beautiful world, the sweet inexplicable mystery of life.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:58:33 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Four legged darshan...
Message:
Pat,

I love your doggie darshan page. They are so sweet.

Cats give great darshan too, but not when they come home with fleas! My cats never have had fleas until I moved. I had to treat all three yesterday with the transdermal type of stuff and it's amazing how good it works! I never bath my cats....they do a good enough job grooming themselves, and I'm not into getting major cat scratches.

Cynthia (The woman who actually got cat scratch fever several years ago)

P.S. How mean Maharaji is to dogs. Where the fuck are they supposed to take a shit. I wish one of them would doodoo on his feet!

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 18:14:02 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Rawat's boxer
Message:
He once told how dogs are so stupid because his boxer was dumb. He would enter a room and everyone would sit up and take notice except for the dog who just lay there and he had to step over him. Clever dog.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:47:48 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Rawat's boxer's too big fer his bitches
Message:
hohoho

how much is dat doggie in da window? woof woof. da one wid da waggly tail
how much is dat doggie in da window? woof woof. on kindness his massa did fail.

hehehe

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:15:47 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: Rawat's boxer's too big fer his bitches
Message:
When I heard him tell that story live at some event I thought: ''For crying in a bucket of doggie doodoo - does he really expect a DOG to realize that he is the Perfect Master? Must everything bow wow and adore him?''

How could he ever be even an imperfect master if he thinks dogs are stupid? His attitude towards dogs (he told many stories of his disdain for dogs) was a big off-putting factor for me. If he had ever loved a dog he could have been adored unconditionally. But dogs don't send checks.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:27:50 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: All
Subject: teleport
Message:
Would one of you computer adept be so kind as to beam Such's 'Life ith Great' post back over here?
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:34:54 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Voila: Such's Life ith Great
Message:
Watchin' my inner light, tunin' in to my breath, bein' dat captain of my own ship, offerin' dose prayers to da only bondafide massa of us all -- dat universal energy -- dat creator, dat preserver, etc. of dat Life itself.

accepting NO substitutes or human posers for dat ONE eternal massa - blaster of ALL; nope, wouldn't be prudent. like, a thousand points 'o Light. hohoho

like a lamp lighting other lamps, dat massa dat GOD dat created me, that showed me dat inner light within when I was just a wee lad praying for guidance and salvation.

Remembering now to offer all praises to dat ONE TRUE massa alone. No concern about dat massa's lifestyle, No hypocrisy there. No hypocrisy in dat pure vibrating energy - unlike da discourses and delusions of any all-too-fallible self-proclaiming selfish human beings.

feeling dat breath -- that love, that peace. just as it [breath consciousness meditation] was revealed to me directly and intuitively one day a long time ago when I was almost dying.

No need for any human interlopers in dat love, dat understanding, dat gratitude und appreciation. No need for interpreters, 'cause dat eternal teacher is and always has been within me, guiding me all da days of me life.

Respecting dat God-given intelligence, dat mind which is dat manifest aspect of da Divine Mind itself - of dat One Intelligence and energy which runs the whole Big Show.

respecting dat heart and dat brain - working together holistically. yes, Dat brain, Dat healthy mind which gives one dat ability to cognize, to understand, to know, to discern, to be conscious.

No duality of mind. no civil war of head vs. heart, and therefore no need for surrender at Appomattox Courthouse or Berlin or Waterloo or da plains of Dehra Dhun, or at da feet of any other human bean or entity or worldly power.

Life IS great. Freedom is Great! Free to think fer meself, respect meself and all others who believe in dat equality and uniqueness of each and every human being, at the essence of it all. No person is superior to others, in da eyes of dat Creator. We are created equal dat way, verily, with inalienable rights of life, liberty, and da pursuit of happiness.

having me evenings free ['cept fer gigs], me lil' money to spend and travel as I please, without imploring from/by anything outside meself.

donating to my own choice of worthy causes -- charities, scholarships. no guilt trips to donate fer anyone else's gilt trips.

not subscribing or surrendering to outside belief systems, externally imposed or inculcated spiritual concepts, cults, religions, or other false indoctrination or delusional massas or doctrines which only demean and enslave da human soul.

Daily Thanking dat One True Eternal Energy for dat Freedom, dat love, dat feeling -- that only comes with dat cosmic union, where all da obstacles of reinforced concepts and relative human relationships disappear. Indeed, All human relationships are subjective, relative and co-dependent.

Yep, Life ith Gweat! Tastes Great [more Filling],too! Ain't it sweet!

Thanks to dat Creator of Us ALL - dat One True massa and teacher - dat Universal Energy within.

In God We Trust -- all others play cash, er, catch. In God We Trust -- accept no worldly/human substitutes.

Life ith twuly gweat! well, thuffering thuccotath!

breathe in, breathe out [and just like da medical doctors prescribe]. lessee, inner light is in dat head, inner sounds are in dat head, sweet taste is in dat head, consciousness is in dat head, and da breath flow and dat subtle breath equilibrium sensed at da nostrils. head is above heart. heart is good, too. but just like uncontrolled thoughts of an unmastered mind, sometimes heart, human relations and emotions can mislead us, deceive us and our intelligence, make us dependent, make us weak, make us susceptible, make us trust in things and persons who are untrustworthy, make us ignore da warning signals of our God-given brain and intelligence. Yes, warm feelings of dat heart may sometimes be good. But, dat intelligence of dat brain, dat life consciousness of dat brain is truly good. working hand in hand with dat heart. no duality there, folks. Verily, head+heart were made to work together, in harmony. we can't have one without de other. demonization of dat head, of dat God-given mind, intuition and intelligence = bad, unhealthy, dualistic. Truth is One, Not duality [2, separation, division]. demonization of mind is incultcation of duality of mind. surrender of mind, heart, life to any worldly/human power is duality. surrender of da reins of one's life to any worldly/human massa is duality.

In God We Trust -- Accept No Substitute[s].

A-team. er, A-men. er,-woemyn, alpha and da omega, da om, da ohms, da om sweet om, dere's no place like om, dere's no place like om, dere's no place like om,dere's no place like om,dere's no place like om,dere's no place like om,dere's no place like om,dere's no place like om,dere's no place like om. yeha!!

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:55:27 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: +++Such's Fan Club+++
Subject: Pleath, I m unworthy
Message:
I m jest a lowly messenger of dat universal energy.

lotsa love,

Peace + lentils,

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:53:21 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: Pleath, I m unworthy
Message:
Professore Suchabanana, is it getting nearer the time when you can reveal that dream? Put us out of our misery!
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:34:55 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: premonition has become reality already
Message:
btdt,

sorry, I have been hesitant. heck, I have waited patiently several years. honestly, just didn't want to freak anyone, or be cyber-attacked, or worse. ok, some lil' revelations coming soon. the first one shall be the gist of a communique from Mr. Pat Halley (you may remember him: i.e. simple simon met a pie-man going to the fair...)

these revelations deal with facets of understanding, personal growth, and some of the choices we each may have on our respective journeys moving away from da cult. i.e. action, forgiveness, letting go, moving forward, the high road vs. the low road, the pearly gates of true freedom from the entangled cult strings [which many of us are still carrying as excess baggage, in one form or another]. I can not say more here right now.

soon. Please, I am just a lowly feelthy person, a poor, feeble old swami. sometimes i even forget myself, too, and respond to jabs and just 'lose it' a bit on these forums. I hope to do better, in that regard. stho, i am juth a thilly thervant of that energy within uth all.

May the universal energy bless, heal and uplift all our brothers and sisters everywhere. that is my simple prayer right now.

peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:34:52 (EDT)
From: Messenger of the Gods
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: teleport
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:36:29 (EDT)
From: MOG Again
Email: None
To: Messenger of the Gods
Subject: Re: teleport
Message:
Let's try that again
[ Such is Life ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:21:36 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Rev. Moon Ji
Message:
You know, this cult thing is getting old. It appears to be harder and harder to be a follower of Guru Maharaji, for example. You have to pretend he's not the Lord anymore (to others, that is) - not that he ever was, of course.

So the rationalizations are getting more baroque, less tethered to words, ideas, reality. It must be hard to keep all that ideology (officially: non-ideology) straight.

And it's all so dry, so bureaucratic, so paranoid. If you want a chance at the Lotus Feet, you gotta go halfway around the world where no one's watching. Jeez. What's a PWK to do?

And I know it's that way in other cults, too. The Internet has given everyone a peek behind the curtain (Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!) and it ain't a pretty picture. And you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

So here's my solution: play switcheroo with the leaders. EV would now be headed by the Reverend Moon and his charming wife, while Maharaji would become Heavenly Father. Maharaji would get a break from being ex-Lord of the Universe. Being a simple Messiah would be a breeze for him.

The Moonies would get a break from the brain-numbing drivel they're forced to internalize, and have an undemanding Indian Playboy for a leader. Worship him, send him money, hey, that's it. You're off the hook and going to heaven (or something).

Premies would benefit from the change, too. They'd get a little discipline, a little direction, a little doctrine. Well, a lot of each, I guess.

And all those premie marriages broken up cuz one spouse didn't have it in 'em to worship Maharaji? Hey, no problem. The good Rev will fix them up with a nice Asian partner and they'll be back in business!

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 02:19:36 (EDT)
From: DeProGram Anad Ji
Email: jflynn77@home.com
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Rev. Moon Ji
Message:
Dear Rev. Moon if i join yer cult can I git an asian mail order bride too. It sure beat the the daylights out livin in yer assram. (that's ashram fer u literate types)
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:00:10 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Not a bad idea.
Message:
If you swapped the leaders around, the devotees probably wouldn't notice the difference. Particularly as they both are rather rotund and like to wear flash suits.

Shit, we all make mistakes.

Anth the Harry Harry.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 13:06:26 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My apology to Holocaust Deniers
Message:
In a thread below I hastily accused premies like SC (PT apparently) of being no better than Holocaust deniers. Upon reflection, I have to say that was unfair. Premies like SC are much, much worse than Holocaust deniers. Why do I say that? Because, from what I've read and seen, it strikes me that most, if not all, Holocaust deniers are sincere though woefully confused and misguided. Premies like SC or PT are not sincere. That is, they don't really believe what they're saying. They might want to believe it, they might like the sound of their ridiculous lies but, no, you'll never convince me that they're sincere. Sincerity is something they left behind a long, long time ago in their 'search for truth'.

Superficially, though, I admit there's a striking similarity between cult apologists and Holocaust deniers.

Both, for example, refuse to accept blatant evidence against their views. PT's post below, challenging us to find a single quote where Maharaji claims that he's God, not you, is exactly
the kind of game Holocaust deniers play. The evidence for the Holocaust is overwhelming. Still, these guys scan the vast mountain of evidence looking for one, arbitrary piece that might be available but isn't. For instance, say Eichmann kept a diary (I don't know if he did or didn't). The revisionists might claim that unless Eichmann specifically wrote that 'today I personally witnesses the gassing of two thousand Jews pursuant to the specific instructions of Hitler' the evidence just isn't there for the Holocaust at all. After all, Eichmann might have written that, no? The fact that he didn't, therefore, proves the Holocaust didn't take place.

This is crazy, whacky thinking. It's offensive to the truth and inherently repugnant to all who care about the truth. Yet premies likes SC are far worse.

Why?

Well, for one reason, premies like PT deny the very facts they challenge us to produce. Here, for instance, is a quote wherein Maharaji blatantly states that he is the Lord of the Universe and we're not:

Question: Guru Maharaj Ji, what does it feel like to be Lord of the universe?

M: What should I tell you about it?

Question: Just what it's like.

M: What it's like? Nothing. Because you are not in yourself; somewhere else; one with someone else.

Question: How is it to be like a puppet?

M: You don't know.... Do you? When you become Lord of the Universe, you become a puppet, really! Nothing else; not 'you'. Not 'I', not 'you' no egos, no pride, nothing else. One with humbleness; servant. Very, very beautiful. Always in divine bliss. Creating your own environment - wherever you go, doesn't matter. Like my friends used to play and I used to sit right in the corner of my ground and meditate (laughter).

She wants to change places with me! I wish I could change places with everyone, and give one hour of experience to everyone! But it's not possible.

Maharaji is clearly saying that he, sthe Lord of the Universe, that it's like so-and-so and that, much as he'd like to show everyone else what it's like to be the Lord of the Universe, he can't. Therefore, he is, we're not. End of story.

PT knew this. He probably re-read the small, sample quotes section on EPO before he wrote his post. So what's that about?

But where I think Holocaust deniers have a leg up on premies like PT is that those fools will actually seek out some sort of external confirmation of their views, no matter how vain and quixotic that effort may be. Hence, David Irving's defamation lawsuit in England. The guy actually thought that his bizarre theories might be vindicated in a court of law. Premies, on the other hand, wouldn't dream of subjecting their ideas to such a test. That panel I tried to set up, in which both sides would pick one panelist, the two then choosing a third between them, a classically fair procedure to both sides? The premies wouldn't dream of participating. Why? Because, unlike David Irving, they know they're lying.

Anyway, history will swallow up this dumb 70's cargo cult of Maharajism. Maharaji might have boasted about coming with 'more power' than Jesus but the fact is he's already a virtual non-entity.

Indeed, he's not even a worthy People Magazine 'Where are they now?' curiosity. A couple of years ago a few of us spoke with a writer from People. She called us, I believe. Wanted to do just that, a story covering the withering, has-been child Lord of the Universe. I spoke with her several times. She was completely into it and quite excited. In the end, though, her editors nixed the idea. Why? No one cares anymore. Not even as a minor footnote to the seventies. No one gives a damn.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 18:16:50 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Rich Neel ,,, 1978
Message:
Hi Jim
here is a letter from Rich Neel
i am sure that all the premies now,, would tell you , that
he got it all wrong

The letter is from 1978

Dear Premies

What a graceit is to be aliveat this time
It is always a grace to have a human body and life that goes along
with it, but really it is only true to the extentthat though this body one can reach the fulfillment of all life itself.
And that is what we have been given by guru maharaj jis grace, is the capability, the means, by which we can totally merge into our true destiny.

Sometimes it almost seems toogood to be true, but all we have to do is flow with the experience and we know itis complety true.
Then, having had this most incredidle gift bestowed upon us, it then
becomes our responsibility to do it .

Obviously, that is only posseble by Maharaj jis grace, but once we realize that we do have his grace, we should completly dedicate our every breath, our every thought, our every action towards fulfilling this most incredible gift he has bestowed upon us.
How can we be lazy, how can we sit back and relax into the trips that our mind constantly encourages us to get into when we been shown our
true purpose.

We have no excuses but to completly surrender to our lord by following his agya.

It seems we are really slow to learn sometimes.
We keep falling for the same tricks the mind puts before us and we ntinur to reap the same consequences, inother words total devastation, total frustation.
Now is the time to completly bathe in the glory of guru maharaj jis
shelter.
Stand under his shower of grace and completly drown in it .
If you take a shower and become clean that doesnt mean you will never get dirty again.
You dont even have to try to become dirty,
the dirt comes to you.
It just collects on us and soon we are just as filthy as we were before taking the shower.
So why leave the shower ever again.
Just stay forever planted at guru maharaj jis most precios holy lotus feet and be constantly showerered by his love, mercy, compassion and grace.
There is no reason to ever leave, everything we need is containeain in maharaj jis world, we dont ever have to worry about a shortage of anything.
Inhis world there are no shortages, no crises, no wars, no unfulfilled desires, no powertry, no discrimination or differences amongst the citezens, no poletics, no fears , nohate, only his pure , shining love.
Only the presence of the lord.
The only absence is absence of mind , of absence itself, for only the supreme presence exist there.
It seems quete clear what we should do and that is to completly surrender to maharaj ji and pray that he make our will one with his will.
Thy will be done maharaj ji , for only you know what it is that needs to happen for each one of us jndividually, then all of the us collectively, the whole world, the entire creation thoughtout this and all other universes that excist.

So , as maharaj ji said on one of the recent phonrcall satsanga, what he is doing is indeed changing the polarity of this universe .

All we have to do is make sure we are at the right end of the pole and that lies at the lotus feet of our belowed satguru.
So may everyone be etarnally filled with the satchianand of devotion
to guru maharaj ji and his most holy lotus feet

His premie

Rich Neel

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:31:09 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Thanks, Ulf. I know you didn't post Rich's
Message:
Hi Jim
here is a letter from Rich Neel
i am sure that all the premies now,, would tell you , that
he got it all wrong

The letter is from 1978

Dear Premies

What a graceit is to be aliveat this time
It is always a grace to have a human body and life that goes along
with it, but really it is only true to the extentthat though this body one can reach the fulfillment of all life itself.
And that is what we have been given by guru maharaj jis grace, is the capability, the means, by which we can totally merge into our true destiny.

Sometimes it almost seems toogood to be true, but all we have to do is flow with the experience and we know itis complety true.
Then, having had this most incredidle gift bestowed upon us, it then
becomes our responsibility to do it .

Obviously, that is only posseble by Maharaj jis grace, but once we realize that we do have his grace, we should completly dedicate our every breath, our every thought, our every action towards fulfilling this most incredible gift he has bestowed upon us.
How can we be lazy, how can we sit back and relax into the trips that our mind constantly encourages us to get into when we been shown our
true purpose.

We have no excuses but to completly surrender to our lord by following his agya.

It seems we are really slow to learn sometimes.
We keep falling for the same tricks the mind puts before us and we ntinur to reap the same consequences, inother words total devastation, total frustation.
Now is the time to completly bathe in the glory of guru maharaj jis
shelter.
Stand under his shower of grace and completly drown in it .
If you take a shower and become clean that doesnt mean you will never get dirty again.
You dont even have to try to become dirty,
the dirt comes to you.
It just collects on us and soon we are just as filthy as we were before taking the shower.
So why leave the shower ever again.
Just stay forever planted at guru maharaj jis most precios holy lotus feet and be constantly showerered by his love, mercy, compassion and grace.
There is no reason to ever leave, everything we need is containeain in maharaj jis world, we dont ever have to worry about a shortage of anything.
Inhis world there are no shortages, no crises, no wars, no unfulfilled desires, no powertry, no discrimination or differences amongst the citezens, no poletics, no fears , nohate, only his pure , shining love.
Only the presence of the lord.
The only absence is absence of mind , of absence itself, for only the supreme presence exist there.
It seems quete clear what we should do and that is to completly surrender to maharaj ji and pray that he make our will one with his will.
Thy will be done maharaj ji , for only you know what it is that needs to happen for each one of us jndividually, then all of the us collectively, the whole world, the entire creation thoughtout this and all other universes that excist.

So , as maharaj ji said on one of the recent phonrcall satsanga, what he is doing is indeed changing the polarity of this universe .

All we have to do is make sure we are at the right end of the pole and that lies at the lotus feet of our belowed satguru.
So may everyone be etarnally filled with the satchianand of devotion
to guru maharaj ji and his most holy lotus feet

His premie

Rich Neel


---

letter to give me an emotional boost, but it did. And on this post terrorist attack day I needed one. Hope my thanking you is not repugnant to you or any other ex. It is sincere.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:58:16 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Re: Rich Neel ,,, 1978
Message:
Wait, I remember him being at the Pasadena event with his wife Peggy.
Some other guy is singing one of those big time songs he used to play at the festivals. I was told no one ever asks him to sing, only M, at some such doo at the residence.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:50:22 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Cult fanatics are liars
Message:
Aspirant: Why didn't Jesus say -- or does it say in the Bible anywhere -- that He would manifest Himself again? For future generations, so they could have a living God?

LOTU: He has said, He has given you a hint, but you want
everything in a perfect state. He has given you a hint -- you don't recognize that hint.

Aspirant: In Mark, Chapter 13, he says that One would come after him, not the son, not an agent, not a messenger, but the Father.

LOTU: I think in Srimad Bhagavat Gita, it is written that He will come full, He Himself will come. That first when He came, particularly to some places He saved; but now because He will come to save the whole world, He will Himself come, full.

Why so puzzled? It is a very fortunate thing for the
people of this age that He Himself, full, will come. Or
has come. Yes?

PT/SC/Cerise/Marolyn Kintire/et alii cannot seem to see that, when LOTU says he has come FULL as the FATHER, that he means that he is the One and Only Supreme God, the creator of all. Like his master, he is such a liar he can no longer tell truth from deceit.

I just posted this to SC aka et al:

I know you are a writer and you seem to have blurred the line between the real facts and your fiction and between who you really are and the characters you make up in your imagination. In other words you are a liar and probably descending into the insanity that comes from blurring the distinction between truth and fantasy.

I would advise you not to post here because your posts reek of cult harassment and intimidation and can be construed as attempts to induce guilt in former cult members and lure them back into an immoral, solipsistic and mind-bending cult.

This forum is for EXPREMIES not cult apologists. Posts here by cult fanatics are seen by anyone reading them as cyberstalking and cult intimidation. I do feel sorry for you as you seem to have some good traits but your game-playing and lying really are infantile.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:53:52 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Desperation sets in...
Message:
Pat. That's 20 posts from you in the first 8 threads. Oh dear.

Look, I know you need a much required confidence boost. But sucking up to bunch on people who hardly even know you

IS NOT THE WAY!

But don't worry, your palpable panic and not so quiet desperation will not last long. Soon we'll know who's spreading the lies around here.

Oh by the way. Until protected by password, this forum is for ANYONE IN CYBERSPACE who feels like dropping in.

I don't post here much, and you folks (who think we're all full of shit) don't post much on LG. They're still open forums.

You'd never do the P/W thing though would you? Because then, and only then, would you realise what a pathetically small group of unhappy little zealots you lot really are.

Disenchanted with M and K?

Bollocks.

The Taliban Muslims are desecrating Afghanistan now in a terrible manner, using footbball pitches for public excecutions, slaughtering any village dweller of a different Muslim cast. The women, forced to beg rather than work were described thus...

'Disenchanted with their empty directionless lives and a gaping hole of a future.'

Sound familiar?

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:09:50 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: You're a masochist, David
Message:
Or perhaps like a scorpion. Remember the story about the saint saving the scorpion that kept biting him. Was the saint or the scorpion the masochist? The scorpion was because the saint dropped him back into the river to drown each time he bit.

Just as you begin to soften up and show your humorous and friendly side you then turn around and lie and play games and post under various deceitful, malicious and sadistic aliases.

I'm not a saint but I don't take any pleasure in befriending scorpions or cultweasel apologists.

So how come the writing style on CAC was so much like yours? You know the jokey, tongue in cheek stuff with a cruel undercurrent.

I don't know about you but I'm having fun here talking to people most of whom I have met and consider friends. if you aren't having fun here then why bother - unless you're a glutton for punishment.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:35:47 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Look Who's Stalking
Message:
PC (to SC)I would advise you not to post here because your posts reek of cult harassment and intimidation and can be construed as attempts to induce guilt in former cult members and lure them back into an immoral, solipsistic and mind-bending cult.

This forum is for EXPREMIES not cult apologists. Posts here by cult fanatics are seen by anyone reading them as cyberstalking and cult intimidation. I do feel sorry for you as you seem to have some good traits but your game-playing and lying really are infantile.

Well said Pat! The whole damned mind-control racket is a form of psychological GBH, a new sort of crime in English case law. There's a dry legal link on it above, but for something more magaziney try Look Who's Stalking'.
[ Psychological GBH ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:23:27 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Does this sound familiar
Subject: Or rather: Cult fanatics say what they told to say
Message:
You are verry wise! Does it help you anyhow?
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 06:32:45 (EDT)
From: Does this sound familiar
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Group Affirmations
Message:
Shared Self-Deceptions


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You hear about mind control in cults, but what is it and how does it work? It is not the same as brainwashing and we know that torture, at least of the physical variety, is not involved. There are no scars on the bodies and you can't see the ones on the minds.

Manipulation of group agreements is the key. A manipulated social environment is created in which, to be loyal to one's friends, one must believe the most amazing things and perform actions which, in real life, would be beneath contempt.

Cults (not just Scientology) create a social milieu which gradually and covertly seduces good people into agreeing among themselves on self-deceptions, so they come to believe themselves an elite in unique possession of the only right answers. The real result is dependence on the group and vulnerability to its control and exploitation.

For example, to act in good faith, we who were Scientologists had to believe there was a good result to what we were doing. But immense pressure is put on any evaluation of result by the environment of selling and gung ho, by our own complicity and participation, by our disposition to grant benefit of the doubt, to cooperate, to be willing, enthusiastic, and loyal. Spiritual growth is what was promised, thus precluding any determination of result except subjectively by the influenced group member himself. What, then, can we say about result?

First the obvious: that even if there was any validity to the claims made, this hothouse of social pressure would be the last place to expect any kind of objective perception, evaluation, understanding, or verification of results. What kind of science can work only within the confines of a closed group that actively suppresses nonconforming viewpoints while demanding and rewarding gung ho agreement?

A kind of insanity is visible in the peculiar group-think ways of evaluating or not evaluating information (like Ron said so) that we accepted and sold to each other. If there was demonstrable result, why would all the hype and controlled information be needed?

The hype is needed, of course, to allow us to share belief in a result. The process can be summarized in four steps -- small steps at first, but larger and larger each time around until the person gradually assimilates the group-think.

Sell him something. The person is told that if you do X you will get better. It is standard practice to promise anything (without actually promising anything), and whatever the person can be made to admit to wanting (called his ruin) becomes the excuse for getting him into this process.
Whip up gung-ho. Group members manifest their friendliness, concern and hope for the person. They make very clear that they want him to get better and they are very sure that participation in Scientology will do it. The expectations are set in place so that not to get better would be a betrayal of one's friends.
The person does X. While engaged in the action, he has special status. He is adulated for being 'on purpose,' and carefully not disturbed or 'enturbulated.' He is clearly an important person. He may also be told how much better he is looking, and how apparent the change is. A social expectation of result is built for the particular case at hand.
The person agrees that he is better. As a good group member, he will find some way to creatively play his part, to justify the time and money he has spent, avoid embarrassment, and not let his friends down.
With all this weight of authority and expectation, merely focusing attention on an area of life may 'rattle the cage' and give an impression that something has happened. Add the feelings of relief and solidarity after completing something important and sharing a success with one's friends. The notorious unreliability of subjective perception is not considered, nor are there methods to control bias and ascertain the actual substance of the experience. Instead, the resulting mental state is exploited uncritically in whatever way will best fit doctrine and make everyone agree that it worked.

At that high moment, the person quickly attests in writing that he got an appropriate result from the service and is satisfied. He must do this to complete the service, or he is 'handled' further at his own expense until he does. No gun is held to the person's head so the success story may be said to be freely given. The cost of remedial handling provides additional motive for everything to be all right.

After I say that everything is all right, my agreement is taken as proof that what you are doing is OK. Your success provides the same rationale for me. By uncritical acceptance of influenced, unreliable data, we deceive ourselves and keep the circle closed. If everything was not all right, one's status in the group would be jeopardized. An enemy of the group, or 'Suppressive Person,' is said not to have case gain. Success stories, attestations, and gung-ho agreement are evidence that one has 'case gain' and so is a valid group member.

Case gain requires no substantiation beyond the person's attestation and other evidences of loyalty. As long as the supposed benefit is attributed to Scientology and does not contradict doctrine, the person is free to claim whatever he wants to believe about himself and dare anyone else to contradict his personal delusions (it is a crime to invalidate a Scientologist's case or gains). When personal delusion is reinforced by doctrine, the result can be impaired self-knowledge, obstructed ability to deal with real situations, and a danger to the person's mental health.

Such is the quality of material which forms the basis for Scientology's claim of results. A legal case for fraud would be difficult, because the person said in writing that he got what he was supposed to have gotten. And it is difficult to go back on representations made voluntarily. One must defend the delusions or risk facing the terrifying loss of control of one's life which has occurred. There are numerous motives to find ways to actually believe that one has experienced case gain.

The payoff is whatever psychic benefit the individual derives from belonging -- the appearances of community and caring, certainty, allies, defense against others in life, and evasion of the real challenges of growth.

Given such motives, the individual may well not care how the apparent benefit was obtained or what it cost, just as the high is everything to the drug addict. He has found where to get it. Alternatives are irrelevant. I have even heard, 'So what if it is a placebo....'

Never mind that truly needed help may be foregone in favor of the immediate fix. Life goals may be abandoned or redefined as the true cost of participation becomes manifest. In this pressure-cooker of agreement and gung-ho, the benefit may be illusory but the person can no longer tell the difference.

As the cult member continues to deny his dependence, or to rationalize it as ethical and beneficial, employers, parents and concerned others must protect themselves as best they can. An obvious concern is the situation of children living in such an environment, whose welfare is subject to the parent's need to believe and to belong.
[ Shared self deceptions ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 06:25:16 (EDT)
From: ****
Email: None
To: Does this sound familiar
Subject: Re: Group Affirmations
Message:
You are verry wise! Does it help you anyhow?
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:37:18 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Does this sound familiar
Subject: Re: Group Affirmations
Message:
The author of this piece has got it in a nutshell:

He goes on to describe the cult environment as a place in which

'to practice suppressing our feelings and substituting group-mandated responses in their place'

The payoff?
- 'the appearances of community and caring, certainty, allies, defense against others in life, and evasion of the real challenges of growth'.

Nice find, whoever you are.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 14:55:02 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Group Affirmations
Message:
Whoa Nellie!!! Key word here: 'appearances'.

Ever try to go against the tide when a premie function is being planned, as in using some common, logical sense? That community and caring go right out the window!

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:29:06 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Jeez, I read that word the same way ...
Message:
... but now you bring my attention to it, 'appearances' should be better written as 'apparent' as in 'supposed'

sheesh. words eh?

Mean one thing one moment, another the next

Thanks for calling that one in.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:06:51 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: channeling Hyacinth Bucket
Message:
in ''Keeping up Appearances:''

""My name is NOT Bucket. It is pronounced Bouquet!''

Rev Rawat's game is just such an empty sham.

But, I wonder, Chris, if he still believes all of his dead daddy's BS or is he completely cynical about gurujism? Or is it just all about the money and adulation and pomp and flying around in a private jet playing a tycoon wannabe? Gurujism is great for the guru. God help the rest of us.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:00:45 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: channeling Hyacinth Bucket
Message:
'The BOUQUUUUUUUUUUUUUET residence. Lady of the house speakinggggggg.'

Tee hee tee hee. I love that show. Especially cuz I actually know someone who in real life is exactly like that.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:21:10 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: channeling Hyacinth Bucket
Message:
I guess we all know at least one Mrs Bouquet.

But I think Rev Rawat is motivated by the need for expensive possessions and making impressions. He is a terrible show-off and loves to play the big tycoon. Didn't his pretentiousness and puffed up self-grandeur sicken you in the Atlanta propaganda training thingy? I could probably live for a year on what one of his watches cost. Yuk, what a phoney!

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 06:35:03 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Hyacinth Bucket? - fouquet!
Message:
Hulloo there, Pat.

Does M believe in his daddy's teachings? I asked the very same question in a recent thread below.

What he believes and what he says seem to be poles apart. For instance 'never doubt the purity of the master' yet he's abandoned all his father's teachings as 'Hindu baggage'.

But I'd rather not dwell on the hang-ups that gurus suffer from. I'd prefer to share some rather lovely quotes from a writer who I'd never read until you mentioned him - Ralph Waldo Emerson.

Here they are:

'Nothing can bring you peace but yourself.'

'The only way to have a friend is to be one.'

'Common sense is genius dressed in its working clothes.'

'Wisdom is like electricity. There is no permanently
wise man, but men capable of wisdom, who, being
put into certain company, or other favorable
conditions, become wise for a while, as glasses
being rubbed acquire electric power for a while.'

'A friend is a person with whom I may be sincere.
Before him, I may think aloud.'

'Criticism should not be querulous and wasting, all knife and rootpuller, but guiding, instructive, inspiring.'

'He who has a thousand friends has not a friend to spare
And he who has one enemy will meet him everywhere.'
(translation of a couplet by Ali Ben Abu Taleb.)

'Every violation of truth is not only a sort of suicide in the liar, but is a stab at the health of human society.'

'What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.'

'Unhappy is the man whom man can make unhappy.'

'A little integrity is better than any career'

'Use what language you will, you can never say anything to others but what you are.'

'Bad times have a scientific value. These are occasions a good learner would not miss.'

'God offers to every mind its choice between truth and repose. Take which you please--you can never have both.'

'Go often to the house of thy friend, for weeds choke the unused path.'

'For everything you have missed, you have gained something else.'

'A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer.'

'Do not spill thy soul in running hither and yon, grieving over the mistakes and the vices of others.
The one person whom it is most necessary to reform is yourself.'

'The highest compact we can make with our fellow is,--'Let there be truth between us two forever more.''

from the pen of Ralph Waldo Emerson

And just one more for the pot:

'May peace bless your eyes, but never haunt your nose'
(Mel Brooks)

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:54:11 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: channeling da Honey Bucket.oy vey! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:09:06 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: Group Affirmations
Message:
Yep, PWK niceness is fake. All they really love is Rev Rawat. I just said to Chuck yesterday that I would like the local premies IF they were not PWKs. The cult thingy creates a cold part to them which is basically out of touch with human warmth.

And trying to plan anything with them is a nightmare because any common sense suggestion is always met with ''M would not approve of that.''

God aren't you glad to be out of that cult. It was like a Monty Python skit about kindergarten written by Kafka.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:23:53 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I actually Laughed Out Loud
Message:
Great line! 'It was like a Monty Python skit about kindergarten written by Kafka.'

No kidding!

This whole thing is just ripe for a major motion picture comedy-satire. Who are the screenwriters out there? Surely, we could produce the most amazing script without any fiction at all: the real story is so goofy-cosmic-tragic and bizarre.

The seventies haircuts and platform shoes, the flowers and adoration of empty altars, and the flopping-pranaming from room to room.

The eighties getting-down-to-business and the airplane thing and the haranguing and self-important little PAMs and churchladies.

What would be the big climactic payoff? The guru has to GET A JOB? Or would there need to be any comeuppance?

Maybe the dark humor would be that the whole enterprise just goes on and on, next generation after next generation, amassing more and more, morphing into state religion, respectability, rigidity. Oh Kafka, indeed. Or Conrad/Brando: The horror, the horror!

It is a Monty Python world!

Best,
Carlita

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:24:05 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Re: I actually Laughed Out Loud
Message:
Hi Carl,

This idea has come up before, we share killer ideas, we laugh, and then nothing. We need to follow through, I mean it. I take film courses at the University and I know good ideas and talent when I see it. It's here. This could be a collaborative project. With bits and pieces contributed by lots of people. Then we decide who will write.

MY IDEA:
The movie starts off with a Latvian party of now middle aged ex-cult members who met on the internet and talk to each other on the forum and emails. DON'T LAUGH :) It could happen.

So as people meet and tell stories. This is where it gets fun. As people tell their stories, they go back in time (dressed, wigs, etc.) and act out the story. It would be soooo funny.

Could you imagine Maha's reaction to seeing this movie? This is better than CACA, non? The fact that it is a true story will help it sell. And we could make a shit-load of money. It doesn't have to be expensive. Let's do it!

Pitch: It's 'The Big Chill meets ????

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:04:44 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Re: I actually Laughed Out Loud
Message:
Well, I took two screenplay college courses so I know how to structure one. But the people on here are so cheeky and funny and clever and then of course there's the real brainiacs. Yep, it could be done. It definitely could be done. Still have connections that are connected to Disney. Who's on?
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:25:07 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: We could do a collaboration on AG
Message:
You write the first bit. Someone carries on from there. We all take different characters.

But who want's to be Rawat? We'll have to ask one of the writers of the revisionism on EV websites to do that.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:46:21 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: We could get Tom Cruise
Message:
Tom Cruise would be a great actor for this movie... wait a minute! He's a Scientologist.

Has anyone wondered about this re his split from Nicole Kidman. Allegedly he just walked and she doesn't know why, but I read in one place, soon after the event, that it was because of disagreements regarding his cult involvement. I never read that again (and I do read everything in the supermarket check-out line), but it really smacked of Scientology, to suddenly cut someone out and appear looking incredibly cheerful and relaxed in spite of dramatic cruelty. I've experienced this firsthand with scientologists, and it's actually quite different from the premie world in many ways. Die-hard high-level Scientoligists have very advanced skills at denying spontaneous human feeling. Although we went in that direction, and some of us went a long way, we never went quite that far en masse. It's all a bit more wishy-washy in M's world.

Okay, I'm going back to bed.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:46:29 (EDT)
From: Dirk
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Whatever Happened to Rennie Davis...
Message:
Jacque Sandoz?? Bill Patterson?? Gary Girard? Arthur Brigham? Does anyone know??? Just thought that the lives of those who were Such Zealots of The Lord would be interesting and informative.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 03:05:11 (EDT)
From: Loaf (You know you have
Email: None
To: Dirk
Subject: arrived when you have a SYNDROME named after you !
Message:
Google is a great search engine.. type in Rennie davis guru, and you get all the paragraphs written which have these three words in them

And I discovered a Rennie Davis Syndrome !

THIS FROM : http://www.pir.org/risk.html

But the emphasis on others is well-placed, for it is important to recognize the ethical and political implications of risk. Among other things, they provide a sympathetic yet critical understanding of phenomena such as the 'Rennie Davis syndrome.' Davis, formerly a Chicago Seven defendant and currently a disciple of a teen-aged guru, is an example of the cultism that has plagued yesterday's activists. The dissolution of the counter-culture left many of us without an identity, whereupon the search for an alternate identity became more desperate and less discriminating. Mysticism is especially attractive because it is isolated from the vicissitudes of history.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 06:49:38 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Loaf (You know you have
Subject: oh great. a name for what hooked me
Message:
rennie's conversion is what sold me on going for knowledge. great. now i find i was a textbook case.[ and not an amtext bookcase either]
thqat just made my day.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 10:48:49 (EDT)
From: michel donner
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: oh great. a name for what hooked me
Message:
i do not think he is dead...last i heard, 2 years ago, he was in colorado and doing a venture capital thing with very new age products and people. 2 years ago. he also was a bit of a mini guru even still, with a small group of loyal followers around him drinking in his every word.

when he left m and k it was because he did not believe m was gonna bring world peace...didnt believe m was dedicated enough to the process and doing what it took..not self-less enough as he put it then. also, rennie was not a follower and needed more of the spotlite on himself.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:41:23 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: michel donner
Subject: yep, same news reports
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:48:11 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: michel donner
Subject: Aw fuck it...(ot)
Message:
Hi Mike,

How come all the 60s revolutionaries ended up in bed with venture capitalists by the 90s.

'Ah. Fuck it if they can't take a joke.'

Hope all is well in the West.

Anth the venture debtor.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:25:56 (EDT)
From: Brian smith
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Aw fuck it...(ot)
Message:
Hi Anth,
By the way, I have been meaning to thank you for the information you posted sometime ago on F6 about the green2gold olive oil. I will order from them as soon as they get up their web page up and running.

Brian the Indentured Capitalist

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 18:40:55 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Aw fuck it...(ot)
Message:
hi anth, i somtimes wish i was a venture capitalist! not
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:04:18 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Re: Aw fuck it...(ot)
Message:
hi anth, i somtimes wish i was a venture capitalist! not


---

Hi Mike,

Did you recognise the quote? ('Aw fuck it..etc'). It's from 'The Big Chill,' which I think I saw on your recommendation.

Take care,

Anth the Venture Socialist.

ps when you gonna get your 'shift' key fixed? only e e cummings is allowed to write in lower case all the time.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:09:38 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Greetings, Anth the apostate
Message:
Hope you are well and happy.

Lots of love,

Pat the chubby chasing cyberstalker.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:56:47 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Hi Fat Fag. (ot)
Message:
Hope you are well and happy.

Lots of love,

Pat the chubby chasing cyberstalker.


---

Hi Pat,

Hope all is well in the land of clean fingernails.

I've just washed up back on the cliffs. I attended a party you would have loved last week, but even one as immodest and foul mouthed as myself cannot repeat the sordid details in public.

Yes, yes, I'll email you.

Anth the tease.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:07:05 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I love OTs but yes you better email
Message:
You are getting wild in your old age.

Pat the dirty old man cyberstalking pornographer.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:06:19 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: 'wild', is that a STD?
Message:
I may already have it.

Anth the inflamed.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 12:04:07 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: michel donner
Subject: Donner.thanx..how bout Bill Patterson?
Message:
Mike, I really liked Bill...and saw him as Completely Devoted to MahaRawat.What happened to Him? What is his present take on MahaRawat?...I appreciate you filling me in...RichMandrake
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:00:33 (EDT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Re: Donner.thanx..how bout Bill Patterson?
Message:
i have no idea. often wondered too. nothing, sorry.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:55:12 (EDT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Re: Donner.thanx..how bout Bill Patterson?
Message:
I was told by someone who knows Bill that he lives in Miami and is definitely anti-maharaji.
However, according to this person, Bill was working at a camp about 5 years ago, and fell out of a tree, seriously injuring himself in the fall.
He has been slowly rehabilitating himself, and has had trouble performing simple, ordinary things that we take for granted.
It did not seem that he was able to communicate too well, and that the progress was slow...
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:57:00 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: So Sorry to hear About Bill Patterson
Message:
If what you say is true...I'm sorry to hear of Bill's Unfortunate Incident....When I Came to City Of Love And Light in 1975, Bill was the person who interviewed and Accepted me..I always found him to be kind and fair in his dealings..a genuinely good person....and I admired his devotion...I Still do in fact....Not Withstanding the fact that ALL our Devotion was apparently Misplaced...

I Wish him the Best...where ever He Is..and Would GREATLY enjoy hearing his story about MahaRawat...Should he ever read this and Care to Tell It...It is People like Bill..who had Close Personal Access to the Former God in Physical Form....and were obviously sincere and Credible People...that Are The MOST Helpful in assisting Me (and, Im sure most of us) in Deprogramming Some VERY deeply ingrained Beliefs....All The Best...RichMandrake...

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:25:05 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Re: So Sorry to hear About Bill Patterson
Message:
me too, Rich. He was a gentleman, kind, sweet and caring. I wish him the very best and I am glad that he got out of the cult. Too sincere and honest to stomach the lies and immorality.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:55:55 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: About Bill
Message:
I did know someone who dated him in Miami while he was leaving––around 1989-90–– and I heard about why and how he was leaving. It was a long convoluted story of MJ treating him absolutely sadistically and appallingly. Keeping him waiting for weeks just for an audience when he came back from South America after years of dedication and sacrifice.

I remember him telling me why he didn't get to bed until 3 a.m. every morning when he lived at the residence in Miami. MJ had a particular kind of kitchen floor installed, with little round bumps (Bill showed them to me––they were uncleanable!), that needed a very particular kind of cleaning every night. Bill requested a change so he could sleep but MJ said no. So he was up cleaning it every night, prior to waking at dawn to serve the children. He told me about this with a kind of 'Isn't he great, that ole Lord' aw-shucks kind of attitude, but even then, when I was devoted, I was shocked at how he was being treated. So I was glad when I heard that he had been eventually treated so badly that he got angry and left. It was more as if MJ pushed him away.

I am so sorry to hear about his fall.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:00:50 (EDT)
From: Rennie Davis...
Email: None
To: Dirk
Subject: died an ex - do a search [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 06:54:36 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Rennie Davis...
Subject: i doubt he's dead. any proof?
Message:
i know that of the chicago 7, definitely abbie hoffman and jerry rubin are dead. i think i would have seen it in the papers if rennie had died.
where did you hear or see this? when? of what?
is it definite that the rennie davis you got your info about is the same rennie davis we had?
i need more evidence before i can accept this.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:05:44 (EDT)
From: I heard he died of a
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: heart attack in the 80s
Message:
but I'm not sure.

Maybe he suffered a heart attack and survived...

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:54:18 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: I heard he died of a
Subject: ::RD alive in 1996::
Message:
I seem to remember the 1996 appearance with Tom Hayden in Chicago.
[ Biography of Rennie Davis ]
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:32:49 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: ::RD alive in 1996::
Message:
He even has an email address: Rennie@HumanityFund.org
[ CEO The Humanity Fund ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:16:54 (EDT)
From: Like I said -
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: read the links on Google below -
Message:
I don't need to go and find them again and post them for you, do I?
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:17:58 (EDT)
From: PS - around '98
Email: None
To: Like I said -
Subject: hit by a car crossing a street I think [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:41:00 (EDT)
From: XXX
Email: None
To: PS - around '98
Subject: That was Gerry Rubin
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 17:14:13 (EDT)
From: You're right!
Email: None
To: XXX
Subject: Sorry - got mixed up! Thanks. [nt]
Message:
sf
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 02:27:25 (EDT)
From: Dirk
Email: None
To: Rennie Davis...
Subject: nope.did Search.nothing (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 02:48:10 (EDT)
From: Google
Email: None
To: Dirk
Subject: search on Rennie Davis
Message:
http://www.google.com/search?q=rennie+Davis&btnG=Google+Search
[ Google ]
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 22:03:51 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: how does that look?
Message:
am feeling blue

gurusSuck

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 06:32:38 (EDT)
From: ****
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: how does that look?
Message:
Salam, shell we post the pictures of La-Ex?
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:50:11 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Rin yure spall chucker (tn)
Message:
toe next
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 19:32:50 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Rin yure spall chucker (tn)
Message:
hey, why u talking to me like dat?

Me spell checker had a flat tire and am working on it.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:08:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: salam salam
Message:
hiya salam,

did you send that pornography to the KGB?

Anthski in bootskis.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 01:13:13 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Now I'm a flat tire!
Message:
Hmmmph! Boss, why you say dat?

I spellum guudum, nope?

--F

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:22:56 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Now I'm a flat tire!
Message:
Fran,

you really should stop taking it on yourself like that. Bad for the nerves.

Anyway, am removing the whole site and replacing it with a newer version. So u sharpeen ur speeling, da? Will e-mail you zoon.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 02:53:19 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Great job!
Message:
Hi darling!

Are you having fun???? :)

I'm busy, can't write more.

YES!!!MAHARAJI SUCKS!!!

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:53:16 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: ok, 'cept 4
Message:
am feeling blue

gurusSuck


---

except -- da dettmers page: dat black box with blue text is impossible to read [for me anyway]

rugus cuss, er, must be da curse 'o da rugu. guess we was warned: if ye leave da massa, ye will byte n b black-n-blue Tex. Odd's bodkins! er, Oz booftas! er, Ozzie's bat's in da belfry, er, da barbie, er, maybe Ozzie's at da malt shop...

P+L,

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 04:01:02 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: ok, 'cept 4
Message:
I tought we already had this conversation about da blak calor. Mybie u need a new comuter? Ah u use a mac, ick.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:43:24 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: well,I m a mac daddy
Message:
I tought we already had this conversation about da blak calor. Mybie u need a new comuter? Ah u use a mac, ick.


---

hehehe

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 14:15:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: If someone doesn't say something fast
Message:
I'm going back to bed.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 15:52:09 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Les Francais.
Message:
I'm going back to bed.


---

French people speak very fast. Give Jean-Michel a bell.

Anth le lentement.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 18:21:42 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mao Tsetung
Message:
I saw a preview for a BBC documentary about Mao (it's some anniversary soon), and one of the things they're covering is the long term effect Mao's cult had on many of the chinese. This clip showed people in despair because they couldn't get Mao's voice out of their heads.

John the 'Jai guru dev Maharaji, your glory........'

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:13:59 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Mao Tsetung (ot)
Message:
Hi John,

There's a brilliant biography of Mao, written by his personal physician, who went back to China after the revolution and saw Mao almost every day until his death. He also treated the 'inner circle'.

I think it's called 'The Secret Life of Chairman Mao' or something. It'll be in the 'Biography' section of any decent bookshop. What makes it amazing is it's not based on research, but personal observation.

It's a great companion to 'Wild Swans', the story of three generations of Chinese women, over the same period.

Two meaty books for your holidays.

Take care

Anth the Imperialist Paper Tiger.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:10:54 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Mao Tsetung
Message:
I have a friend who escaped Maoist China, and whose boyfriend was killed in Tianenmen Square. She has described in incredible detail the total cult of Mao - so like MJ is it unbelievable - he was really watching everthing they did, and the Lord, to them . She escaped and has written a book with her husband, called The White Haired Girl. It waas amazing to share cult experiences across Maharaji/Maoist lines and find so many similarities.

love ktd

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:16:37 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: The White Hair Girl
Message:
Sounds like quite a woman.
[ The White Hair Girl ]
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 14:26:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't believe me, eh?
Message:
That's it. I'm gone. Back to bed.

By the way, anyone seen Whitney Houston lately?
[ What in the world happened to her? ]

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 17:24:36 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Something Fast...okay?
Message:
Something fast. Something fast.

I'm tired. Rough weekend. Bye:) I'm resting.

Cynth

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 13:49:14 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: SC? PT? Could it be ........... ??? ....!!
Message:
I played Bobby Fischer, grandmaster says

Associated Press

London — A British chess grandmaster is convinced that Bobby Fischer, one of the game's most legendary and elusive figures, is playing again — anonymously on the Internet.

'I am 99 per cent sure that I have been playing against the chess legend,' Nigel Short told The Sunday Telegraph. 'It's tremendously exciting.'

Mr. Fischer, an American, fascinated the world by winning an epic battle against a Russian, Boris Spassky, in Reykjavik, Iceland in 1972. Then he disappeared, only to re-emerge from retirement in 1992 for a controversial rematch against Spassky in Yugoslavia.

Mr. Fischer won, and then disappeared again after U.S. authorities accused him of violating sanctions imposed against Yugoslavia by playing the match.

Mr. Short, who unsuccessfully challenged Garry Kasparov for the world chess title in 1993, said rumors began circulating last year that the American champion was anonymously playing others in quick, three-minute games at the Internet Chess Club. Mr. Short said he was skeptical, even after his friend, Greek grandmaster Ioannis Papaioannou, claimed to have played Mr. Fischer.

'I could not help but burst into laughter, much as I would have done had my friend claimed to have seen the Loch Ness monster,' Mr. Short wrote in an article for the Sunday newspaper.

A few weeks later, Mr. Short said, he was approached by someone who identified himself as an intermediary for 'a very strong chess player ... who wished to preserve his anonymity.' The intermediary gave Mr. Short a special code word and arranged a time for a future game.

'I thought that this 'intermediary' was almost certainly a fraud or a time-waster ... but on the off-chance of meeting the Loch Ness monster of world chess, I agreed,' Mr. Short wrote.

When the prearranged time came, Short was requested by the anonymous player to sign in as a guest instead of as himself. That way no one would know Mr. Short was playing, and his games would not be recorded, as they normally are.

They played eight three-minute games. Mr. Short was crushed.

'I never confronted my opponent with the question, 'Am I playing Bobby Fischer,'' Mr. Short conceded. But during subsequent games, Mr. Short said he asked other questions, and the answers all seemed like they could only come from one man.

'He was obviously very familiar in a gossipy way with the major figures in the chess world of the 1960s — Mr. Fischer's period of greatest activity,' wrote Mr. Short. 'He was polite, he was funny, and clearly an American, to judge from his spelling and pattern of conversation.'

Mr. Short is convinced that his opponent was the legendary Mr. Fischer, and he said that he will always treasure the games they played.

'To me, they are what an undiscovered Mozart symphony would be to a music lover,' Mr. Short wrote.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:05:20 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Err....Knight 6 to King 4 Jim
Message:
said with a subtle hint of quiet desperation....
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 02:24:20 (EDT)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Waking Up
Message:
Hi Everyone, this is my first posting and I'm not very sure as to how to go about it. I have been reading for a few months , usually at the end of Events when I am angry at incongruities and something within me cannot deny what I feel and understand. You are all correct, of course having gone through this process yourself, in expressing the feelings of fear and aloneness such an idea as leaving everything you have held most precious, invokes.
I have been a premie since I was 13, 28yrs even though I had to wait to receive K due to my age I had trust that it was all perfect and that I was in His Grace. My main devotion was to be with M and devote my whole life to SS&M to him. I have over the years been involved in many areas of service, some in close proximity but I am not what you call a PAM. I guess i am just getting brave enough to stick my toes in the water of not denying the facts. Reading the 'Michaels' and others accounts, has definitely allowed me to draw my own conclusions. I hate the Grasping and Secrecy that has always been a part of the Heirachy and just was saddened that i didnt seem to have what it took to be a good devotee. I am grateful to those of you who are taking the courage to honestly express all that you have experienced. I don't want to live a lie and i dont want to waste my life anymore than i may already have. Yes these are very confusing times and I shall feel my way using what is left of my childlike heart and hopefully, smart brain.anyway thanks again and I hope some more first hand current facts from PAM becomes available.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:28:03 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Welcome Bai Ji - great post
Message:
I guess I won't be able to use my funny alias ''Bai Ghosh Ji'' anymore now that you are here. Have fun with all these wonderful people here.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:38:12 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:
Welcome, Bai,

It's wonderful to watch (read:) about someone coming out of the coma of the Maharajism cult.

By your name, I assume you spent most of your life being devoted and loving Maharaji.

Don't worry, being a good devotee is a fallacy. There is no such thing; it was one of the ways in which Maharaji duped us into feeling bad about ourselves.

Be proud of yourself for having the courage to even read the site. There is so much material on the EPO site, and of course, here, at this forum where many of us have become friends. There is a lot of support here of the exiting kind.

I hope you consider posting again. Trust us too be kind. I know I'd love to hear of your association (service) to Maharaji.

And it's absolutely fine to become angry directly at him (you won't get the face-to-face chance), yet, part of the exiting process can involve anger, fear (sometimes irrational based on what he told us if we ever left), and sorrow, too.

I've cried many tears over the realization that Maharaji really is a fraud and for the years of my life lost to involvement with him.

You said: ''...I shall feel my way using what is left of my childlike heart and hopefully, smart brain.''

Don't worry about it. Being in a personality cult for so many years will make your mind/brain quite numb. Exercise it! I have found that reading a lot helps to stimulate those lazy braincells that were taken up by my time with m.

Welcome again, be well, be good to yourself, and of all things, do not feel guilty...the only guilt here belongs to Maharaji, because he lied to us for so long.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:00:36 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Hi Bai
Message:
Hi Bai,

How refreshing to read your post. Welcome back to the crazy old world, full of nutty folk, tv and sunshine.

Did you spend your premie years in the UK? If so, I may know you.

Anyway, whoever you are, wherever you are, you're doing the right thing.

I raise my can of Stella Artois to Freedom.

Bollocks to the Gods. Long Live the Humans.

Anth getting into a jumping up and down yelling slogans type of mood.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:42:27 (EDT)
From: WMary
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:
Bai ji, did you once (or do you still) cook for the Master? I may have met you once.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:08:21 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: you're a good you!
Message:
sever yourself from that poisonous, guilt laden fake judgement that 'you're not a good devotee'. it's a false assessment of you. you are you. that in itself is the good. whatever you sense or feel or see or think, is the right thing. your equipmnt works. theres not as damn thing wrong with you and there never was.

welcome. come right this way. welcome back to your own life.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:42:52 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:
It's a little scary, isn't it? I've not been here long but it seems like a year since I came here looking for facts. Not truth, just facts. The facts were so glaringly blatant that the truth just slapped me in the face with a real sting. I couldn't believe what I was reading about Maharaji and Elan Vital, except for one thing, Michael Donner and Dettmers. I knew Donner from his initiator time and I knew he was a very sincere person. I only knew Dettmer from reputation, but it was a solid reputation.

Their words rang true, as did the others who post here. Still, it was hard for me to begin to know how deep the deception goes. And definitely, the deception of the heart is the hardest to overcome. I struggle with it everyday, some more than others.

I'm continually surprised how bare I feel in facing the world. Knowledge was like those expensive cashmere-type shawls M gives the instructors. Those pashima (sp) things. It wrapped me up so wherever I went, it was with me, so I thought and felt, giving me license to blaze through the world. Yesterday I met a young mother, less than thirty years old, who went for a doctor's appointment and was thrown into the hospital for chemo, radiation and major organ removal. I saw the look on the doctor's face and heard her sobs as he left the room.

In the past, that feeling , you know the one, would bolster itself up, and on I'd go, meeting such a situation head on. But there I sat, thinking, ' Great, what do I have to offer this girl? I can't tell her the lord of universe is here, don't worry, take this knowledge, it will show you the preciousness of your life.' No sireeee, not anymore. So I just asked the universe for something, cuz I don't even know what's in me anymore. I just went and talked to her. I let her talk, and talk, and talk, and talk some more. Disability check was cut off. No problem, get the social worker on it. Have to stay for six weeks as out patient in a Ronald McDonald type house. No problem, acutally I think it's a big problem and the hospital is insane, and I'm working on that one, but lets just get her food everyday cuz she can't cook her own. Catholic church? They don't do that anymore. Well someone is come hell or high water. Her family is two hours away and her children are going crazy without her. So she gets to come here and stay by herself undergoing these treatments in a stange town totally alone. Her mother told her, 'If god wants you, he'll take you. If he doesn't he won't. You have to put your faith in god.' Of course, I'm asking things like where do you live and work, what water do you drink?

It's insidious how deep all this goes. Everything we've been gets thrown for a bit of a loop. It's impossible to 'just walk away' like we got a bad meal at a restaurant and we just push the chair back from the table. It's a little deeper than that. I'm just glad people post here because their perspective and honesty and humor help me enormously. It gives me hope, that I'm not as alone as I feel without M and knowledge.

Now the earth and flowers are calling me. Dirt is calling me. I'm gardening these days and having a big closet clean out.

None of my family, and none of my friends, as much as they care about me, can know what I've gone and am still going through. But everyone here does. Just your sharing reaffirms that what I feel is normal, because we all feel such similar things after finding out these facts.
Thank you for being brave and typing your very first words. It's a courageous act.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:40:22 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: very Clearly stated btdt
Message:
I have really appreciated your contributions to this forum and want to acknowledge you for your clarity and courage in confronting the facts about the cult and the guru.

This is the kind of wisdom and knowledge that lights the path for others to follow the steps back to freedom.

Thank you for making the distinction between facts and truth btdt. Premie's don't come here seeking truth, they think they already have found the truth, to argue that point with them is a daunting task.

It is the facts that speak loud and clear, it is the facts that break down the doors of illusion and therin lies the truth. In this case the truth about the cult and m being the lord, him bringing worldpeace, the history of the techniques, m's self absorbed greediness and m's indulgent lifestyle and on and on. Just a pack of lies and beliefs tossed up on m's self serving dishonest agenda, another religion pretending like it isn't.

On the personal level, the facts that I have found about myself and the knowledge is, I always had it before m, and I have even more of it now after m, because he and the cult beliefs that go with him are not in the way to clutter up my life anymore.

I appreciate your insights btdt, they make me think, they inspire me,
and you stick to the facts without freaking out.

You use this forum well my friend
Thank You

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:47:28 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: very Clearly stated btdt
Message:
oh my gosh....blush blush.....thank you.

What you say is very true, at least in my case. I saw the EPO site a zillion times whenever I'd log on to M's or Ev's site. Never bothered to bookmark them. And occasionally, like a lot, I'd hit this one by mistake. Seeing the words 'the truth about gm' on the search engine site didn't even interest me. I knew the 'truth' (ha ha ha) so why would I even bother to see what a bunch of 'ex's' had to say? And the pix's didn't look anything like the corporate M I've been seeing. It just seemed outdated and irrelevant. HA HA HA the joke was on me. Once I got in, it was THE most relevent and updated site anywhere concerning M and k and EV. Their web sites are so mod and slick, they get away with a lot of fluff. Pure cotton candy. Looks great. Smells great. Then disinegrates on the tongue and makes ya sick to your stomach.

Thanks for taken the time with yer kind words, sir.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 03:48:21 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: That's the truth, btdt
Message:
No spin, no belief systems, no placebos, no cliches, no spiritual unprovable mumbo-jumbo. It's not easy but it feels cleaner and more honest. Thanks.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:38:41 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: This thread is ***BEST OF FORUM***
Message:
Amazing, you guys! Heart-felt, articulate, insightful. I could just go on and on. And I haven't even read all the posts yet!

Love you all,

Francesca

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 19:06:03 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Good Morning, Bai Ji
Message:
And thank you for posting such a candid expression of your new outlook on the events of the past 28 years.

I just recently woke up myself after 29 years in the cult, and much of what you stated in your post and what you are currently going through I strongly identify with.

It is hard to define the sense of loss that I felt exiting the cult, I had such a strong emotional investment into the whole belief stucture and M. I see it now for the crutch that is really was and also on the positive side for the learning process that was/is.

Once I settled my emotional issues, said goodbye, shed a few tears etc. I launched into a whole new world of freedom and experiences and I see no end in sight.

What is clear now more than ever, is that I gained more and learned more through friends, aquantainces and personal experiences than I ever did from the Guru.

That continues today in my recovery from the cult, the desire to know the truth was once again ignited here. I learn a lot from the people who post and visit here, so please stay around for a while and share.

The biggest problem that I initially had to overcome was to rediscover the desire to seek the truth with an open mind, to confront inquiry and face the facts about the cult and the guru as I had covered up that part of myself with all of the patterned cult propaganda and answers.

You seem like you have a good understanding of yourself today, trust me, you will find the answers as to what is next for you from here, no door closes without another one opening.

Enjoy the freedom of being able to fully express yourself freely with out any cult baggage, Life is much greater than what has been served up on this agenda, there is a whole new universe of knowledge and experiences waiting beyond premiedom.

Thank you for your sincere and honest post Bai Ji

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 16:05:48 (EDT)
From: Cl
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:
Good for you, that you decided to listen to whatever inside has led you to whatever new experiences await you. You sound like a very courageous, and healthy person. I do hope that amidst your innocent curiosity to explore the new world, you give yourself credit for all you've done, rather than punish yourself thinking you've wasted time. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't, that's of course your call. In any event, the sadness you may feel over lost time is a difficult enough challenge to face without getting mad at yourself besides. (of course you can if you want) still, after I left, I realized that regardless of how upset and angry I was at him, I felt an undercurrent of grief that lasted for a long long time. Waves of anger, sadness, hurt, you name it, arose from my gut without my asking. Just as if a friend had died. In fact, one did. The relationship I thought I had was over. I was surprised by how hard I took it, despite the relief and exhileration I had at first. All this may mean nothing to you, as none of these feelings may arise, but your letter and strength of character touched my heart and this is what came out. I wish you the best. CL
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:20:56 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Cl
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:
Hey CL! Are you the CL that i know? If so, why don't you introduce yourself a little bit here? You are a popular historic figure because of those posts. I am certain you will receive great support and welcome and can still remain anon.

love ktd

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 19:58:13 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Cl
Subject: Welcome Bai Ji and CL
Message:
This is what it's all about. I awoke nearly three years ago, and it really was like waking up. A part of me had been closed to me for many years and it was a little scary at first. It's amazing what a little honest truthfulness can do.

Good luck,

John Brauns

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:14:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: You sound tres cool, fool
Message:
You know, funny how this works but it does. For someone who's basically been hoodwinked all your life, you just sound like you've got a really good head on your shoulders. Congratulations, in the deepest sense of the word (actually, I don't know what the deepest send of 'congratulations' is, maybe like a really heavy Happy Birthday or something?)

Did you see the Truman Show?

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 07:03:31 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:
Hi, welcome!

The confusion you may feel at times is normal but the mind settles down eventually.

You may feel confused at times and reasoning, creating a new interpretation of what it meant to be involved with the cult, understanding why you needed 'him' and what you were missing will help you put order in your values and thoughts. Maharaji screws people’s head and it takes time for some of us to heal, more than to others, but you will be fine.

We are doing better “propagation” than him then: One more out!! LOL

Whatever you do, don’t come back. Read as much as you can about cult involvement. I wish you the best Bai Jai. Stick around.

Love,

silvia

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 05:57:40 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:
When I first read EPO I was so hungry for information from pams and such...I needed proof that this was true because IT WAS SO HARD TO BELIEVE!
Slowly as I have started to be able to see the world without looking through the eyes of 'a devotee' I am thinking more in terms of not wanting to be part of a cult (which I now feel it was) and of wanting to have an open questioning mind. I think doubt is OK... it was always there lurking I think but i dealt with it by ignoring, justifying and rationalising. Now I aim to deal with it by trying to get to the bottom of it.
look forward to hearing more from you.
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 15:55:55 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Awakening
Message:
If you can bear to laugh, follow the link for something that had Michael Dettmers singing happily, long after he split from the poison poseur.

JohnT
- never a premie
[ Awakening ]

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:07:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: You guys are really what it's all about, huh?
Message:
Isn't that something? The power of information, the power of truth, not as some sort of protected monolith but just as a flood of real thinking, real memory, real ....

It's amazing, really.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:05:34 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: yep, ain't it true!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 02:55:54 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:
hello bai Ji and welcome to this brave new world.

When i first started sevvering my connection with M, I had lots of wonderful feelings, but also I realised how frightened I was..

The roots of premiedom are social, and psychological - but always couched in terms of Mysticism - and i can remember feeling all sorts of anxieties, not realising (and having no support at all) that he had implanted small fears by suggestion ever since I first sat down and absorbed his entire message - sub-text and all .

When we are open, when we are devoted,when we are blissed out, we have no defences, and no objectivity. This is how the techniques work in the 'package' - they soften and open us, so that his words can inform our perception of the world within.

If we had the techniques - AND a context in which we could feel, question, enquire, explore and OWN our 'new world' -we would have emerged from this as different creatures. As it is - he has taken a potentially wonderful opportunity and created a trap out of it.. but lets keep hold of the good stuff and run like hell !

All the best

Loaf

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:15:47 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:
Thanks Loaf, this helps me understand a few things in terms that make sense to my muddled brain. Very insightful.
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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 11:52:23 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:
Adding on to what Loaf said: I've come to find out from chatting with ex-premies on this site that we came to M for many different things. And got them, with varying degrees of success, but always at a great cost.

Things like mystical experience, a sense of belonging, a belief that we were unconditionally loved, a feeling that we were changing an ugly world..things like that. The cost was high, and a lot of internal rationalizing was necessary to hide those costs from ourselves.

Here's one more interesting thing I've learned on this forum: most of us have found ways to get those things we thought only M could give us, in our post-premie years. Better versions, aat less cost.

I've heard about (and experienced!) people getting love from family and friends, mystical experience (M had nothing to do with it!) and on and on - satisfaction without dishonesty.

Good luck, Bai Ji.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:29:56 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:
hi bai ji, nice to feel your toes dipping into the waters here. i couldn't agree with gregg more. we all came to m for different reasons and got what we were looking for, for awhile at least...and at a high price. i think that is a common denominator for most of us; realizing that the price was too high...too much giving our own power away for me was huge. for others it was too much of (fill in the blank).

i went thru a pretty angry period feeling that i had wasted so many years. but in retrospect (and many others here will/do not agree) i had to burn whatever story was my own out completely enogh to even begin to be able to leave. for me it was the devotee feeling as an indication of self worth. according to a deep seated belief system that i brough into the saga with m to begin with, and that was completely reinforced by all the satsang over so many years...that i couldn't/shouldn't be the master of my own fate...that being a devotee of a master was the highest aspiration i could hope for.

this system...before and during the years in the cult created so much seperation that the pain became too much to deny. the seperation from others (having always to give credit to m and grace, and never each other) and seperation from true self (always giving credit to m and grace and never myself).

which is all to say that the saga served me and my belief system for many years; and because i had to burn thru that system i do not look back and feel any waste...just a process that has made me stronger and healthier.

on thing i pray for these days...sorta like pray for...is to learn in ways that are positive and painless whenever possible. of course that takes careful listening to the subtle voice within that i have gotten to know better since ignoring all the external voices that tend to repeat the pattern i am trying to leave. so many years of being told both directly and indirectly, not to trust myself rather trust in him alone. it took time to transistion into trusting myself, learning to trust myself and not 'him' alone. i wish that i had been more patient with myself during those years of transition...but...here i am today; happy and fulfilled, in service to people and situations around me, actice in building a future together with others.

i even miss sometimes the imagined ease of relying on someone else for the answers for some direction. i have identified that part as a remanent of my childhood still wanting to be parented, guided and sheltered from the big bad world. i see that desire within me still and have patience with it but know that is a small part that stills needs to grow up with the rest of me.

good luck bai ji!

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:18:20 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Donner, this post floored me
Message:
Dear Mike,

I've read your post a couple of times and saved it to my hard drive. The feeling of resonation I had when reading it went right out the soles of my feet into the earth, but also up through the top of my head into the heavens.

Especially the part about 'burning out' your own story. I think I burned it out enough to leave but carried it out with me like a little scarred tar baby into some other trips. Maybe I burned it out in my 8-1/2 years of the strict Tibetan Buddhism. I sure hope so.

I think that's why getting on the Forum was such a revelation. Recent exes were talking about the burnout of the Maharaji trip, and I was talking about the burnout process that had gone on leaving M, and leaving other belief systems.

Burn, baby, burn. I can relate to the positive and painless ways of learning. Non-violent learning.

Thanks, Mike

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:17:21 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: The Cultural Revolution Within.
Message:
Hi again Mike,

Remember the 'Cultural Revolution'? I'm having an internal one.

I put on my Dr Martens, steel capped boots and set to work on the Temple and its idols. I'm busting the stained glass windows, drawing Hitler moustaches on the photos, and trying to organise a debauched party on the altar.

I'm going to finish by dynamiting the whole building.

I've had enough spiritual bollocks for one lifetime.

God is Dead. Long Live God.

Anth the herring head.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:19:12 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Donner
Message:
You said: 'on thing i pray for these days...sorta like pray for...is to learn in ways that are positive and painless whenever possible. of course that takes careful listening to the subtle voice within that i have gotten to know better since ignoring all the external voices that tend to repeat the pattern i am trying to leave...'

Took the words right out of my lotus mouth!. I frequently pray, or rant, or deeply encode myself with the intention that i no longer agree to learn my important life lessons through struggle and suffering. I am now willing to learn what i need to learn through joy and ease. I'm willing to be stretched, and work thru things at times, but i have resigned from the meme-factory spitting out bullshit about learning through suffering, etc...

Take care bud, love katie d

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 13:12:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: I can relate
Message:
No, honestly, Mike, I can. Great post. (Frankly, I've never liked the word 'post' -- 'good post', 'great post'. Just don't like sound of for some reason. 'Comments'? Yeah, I'm all over that. But 'post' ... well, at least we're not calling them 'postings' like they do on ELK. Can you imagine? 'Great posting, Mike'? Yech!)

Mike, you really must have gone through a lot, man. I'm just sitting here thinking about that for a second. You know, it really is a sign of something strong and beautiful in you that you're here. Just your being here, a live witness to the truth, without jumping up and down about it ....

You're alright, Mike.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 08:49:34 (EDT)
From: Loaf's biggest fan
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: WOW !! WHAT A FAB POST LOAF ***(nt)
Message:
Ok i wrote this myself... but you know how it is when you post something which you feel has a nugget of truth in it, and come back and find that nobody has even patted you on the head... (sniff).

I felt lonely and passed by, so I have given myself a hug. Thanks for caring. :)

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:51:49 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Loaf's biggest fan
Subject: Yes it was FAB
Message:
Loaf,

I am so blown away by this thread that I have already e-mailed J-M and begged him to make it 'Best of Forum' and saved your post and Mike Donner's posts to my hard drive. But I wannem all!

As my mom always says, 'feel the hugs'!

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 14:58:22 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Loaf's biggest fan
Subject: It IS a FAB post...
Message:
... but it's also Sunday, and some of us sleep in late. I really, really liked your post, Loaf. There are several great posts in this thread.

I agree that M took something very simple that could have helped a lot of people, but manipulated it in a very self-serving way. Many of us do find that after leaving the Goober, we can find that same kind of help from many sources, without strings attached.

I thought you described it perfectly, the way M opens your mind to him by appealing to your feelings, then uses that openess to plant a lot of self-serving ideas in your head to exploit you. Without M's mindtrap it's easier to feel, question, enquire, explore our OWN ''new world'', as you say. What he offer's in the the begining and what you end up with in the end are very different.

When I first started posting here, I was really interested in what information any PAMs had to say, like many of the new exes here. I think that's because when you finally admit to yourself that you've been lied too, you want to find out as much as possible what was being hidden from you. To what extent those lies were hidden.

I'm still interested in what PAMs may have to say too, but I also appreaciate the experiences of the garden-variety and fringe premies, of how they finally were able to break free and claim their own power back, separate the good from the bad and move on, that you can still enjoy your life without worshiping Goober, there is still joy to be had, without sacrificing honesty, as someone here just said so beautifuly. That empowers us all. It helps others to see that it can be done.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 16:43:17 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: awww....
Message:
the thing about posting (and lurking, and I swing between the two states).. is that posting is not only nice in terms of airing and sharing thoughts and problems .. but its a bit like leaving notes in a hollow of a tree, or leaving a trail of biscuits and then hiding behind a bush in order to see what sort of wild animals will come out and eat them.. but one thing I have discovered.....they never come while you are watching.

It must be like the light in the refrigerator.. but you come back after a time sometimes there are a pile of droppings.

I wasnt SERIOUSLY needing an ego massage - but it is always very much appreciated when people take the time to comment or add something.. this is the joy of sharing stuff in places like this - and i am so happy we are all here to share our individual and collective discoveries..

Thanks chucky

Loafer

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:03:10 (EDT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Owning it
Message:
Thanks for the welcome! I amy just use my screen name which is suedoula -- see you soon!

Best,
Susan

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 08:35:30 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Re: Owning it
Message:
I rather liked the way your post folded in upon itself and collapsed in a fit of Hurrah's !

Most impressive. So this is why he wanted us to stop talking... all is clear now !

How are you BD ? Well and happy I can tell, but its all in the asking.

The notion that the vast ocean of feeling might serve the mind well is an interesting one - and one which somehow positions us in relation to Knowledge, not as consumers of it, but masters. (Note the small M.. I can forsee a spurge in throne-building among the exes... anyhow I must go now and submit planning applications for my annexing of the inner, subtle sudetenland.

OooVavoo indeed.

Loaf (even more dissolved than even you into in-jokes which only he 'gets')

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 00:42:06 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: All
Subject: just a giggle
Message:
The teenagers just walked sporting a new T-shirt
'I'm no longer a danger to society'
with a big yellow smilie face!!!

So now that I am formally not doing propagation, I think I'll get myself one.....

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 05:40:33 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: Pmaccanner@hotmail.com
To: btdt
Subject: Can I Place an Order? [nt]
Message:
Can I Place an Order?
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:29:18 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Can I Place an Order?
Message:
Yep. the store is 'Hot Topic.com'
It's a wild one!
I'm still having trouble with e-mail. After my never-at-home son gets it fixed, I'll e-mail ya!
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:48:18 (EDT)
From: link
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: Can I Place an Order?
Message:
I'm hopeless at this
[ hot topic ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:46:31 (EDT)
From: link
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: Can I Place an Order?
Message:
If I can get it to work!
[ Page Link ]
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