Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 07, 2001 To: Sep 13, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


cq -:- Religious convictions - a life sentence? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:59:48 (EDT)
__ Disculta -:- Why all this is not OT -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 11:46:06 (EDT)
__ __ Bryn -:- Wonderful thoughts. Thanks. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:35:03 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Why all this is not OT -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:18:50 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Wonderful, Disculta... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:02:10 (EDT)

janet -:- survivors found -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:44:48 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- 4 more planes were shot down -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:32:14 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: 4 more planes were shot down -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:03:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- You guys believe any rumor ! -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:06:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Rumor -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:13:32 (EDT)

Will the Real God -:- Please Stand Up -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:47:01 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- Ta - now will the real God please sit down.. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:52:29 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Stick to a Handle or GO AWAY -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:13:29 (EDT)
__ __ You're Just like a premie -:- Shut your trap -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:03:24 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- How about we just get rid of God? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:55:56 (EDT)
__ The Real God -:- Re: Please Stand Up -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:47:02 (EDT)
__ __ Will the Real Poster -:- choose a name and stick to it. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:22:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ like u're doing -:- Re: choose a name and stick to it. -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 03:58:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ Beware of the Brit Bully -:- Re: choose a name and stick to it. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:04:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ It gets really confusing if -:- you don't sign your name. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:23:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ How the fuck do you know -:- who wrote what? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:23:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ God's Mother -:- Re: who wrote what? -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:01:24 (EDT)

Loaf -:- I have an uncomfortable hunch -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:18:07 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Just love those conspiracy theories -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:00:44 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- P.S. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:04:51 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: I have an uncomfortable hunch -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:00:06 (EDT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- To some extent , yes but -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:10:08 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- my post above -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:24:51 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: I have an uncomfortable hunch -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:10:27 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- The terrorists trained at Daytona Beach -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:24:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- The problem with arming a guard -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:30:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- gallows humor -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:29:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Domestic airline security.. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:44:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Re: Domestic security..here is another solution -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:42:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Sir Dave -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 11:34:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Thanks Rick -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 07:05:05 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Re: I have an uncomfortable hunch -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:31:10 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Cynicism. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:53:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Cynics peeing in streets -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:54:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- I heard there was a rush for gold -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 12:47:18 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- You're a dope. (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:05:46 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- You're a dope, not Loaf -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:55:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- hi robyn -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:16:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: hi Loaf -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 07:56:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Hi, Robyn -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:59:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- a correction Pat -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:25:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Hi, Pat -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 07:59:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- a newsy email would be nice [nt] -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:55:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: You're a dope, not Loaf -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:09:36 (EDT)
__ __ Loaf -:- Scotty - I am worried about myself... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 11:35:17 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Bush isn't looking good. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:57:07 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: Bush isn't looking good. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:40:53 (EDT)
__ Bob -:- Re: I have an uncomfortable hunch -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:21:27 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Maybe -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:31:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Suicide is not martyrdom (see thread above) nt -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 12:46:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- I know Chris. -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:48:02 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- Unlikely -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:17:28 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- but they'll milk it to the max -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:47:17 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- A cheap shot -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:42:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Yo Jeth -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:07:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Hi Dermot (OT) -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:02:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- the future -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:51:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Why? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:15:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Why? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:08:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- I think you are being disingenuous -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:51:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Let's get that quote right -:- Re: I think you are being disingenuous -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:19:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- self immolation -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:34:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Disingenuous ? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:19:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- A lovely post John [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:56:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Don't justify Israeli behavior -:- for they are ALSO fucked up [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:49:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- you forgot tosign your name(NT) -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:12:22 (EDT)
__ __ don p. -:- Re: Unlikely -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:25:04 (EDT)
__ don p. -:- Re: I have an uncomfortable hunch -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:12:08 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- But who is the enemy? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:10:06 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: But who is the enemy? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:17:57 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- They don't care Dave. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:45:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- You've got it all figured out, don't you? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:10:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Still working on it jerry. -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:10:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I agree with your main point, but wish you -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:59:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Grenada, Vitnam,El salvador, Nicauragua :) -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:30:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Grenada, Vitnam,El salvador, Nicauragua :) -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:56:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Remember the Maine ... -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:59:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- all above and more 'sorta' :) [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:33:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- What does that mean, 'sorta'? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:07:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- and PS -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:08:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: What does that mean, 'sorta'? -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 03:47:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Hollywoooood! -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:03:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- That Leanord Cohen song, Jerry -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:22:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Get a clue, Anth -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:36:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- I don't get it Scott. -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:22:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Here's a clue, Scott -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:02:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- gone to graveyards everyone -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:35:15 (EDT)

salam -:- question -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 23:24:22 (EDT)
__ don p. -:- Re: question -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:23:12 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- ::heroism of passengers:: -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 03:45:29 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: ::heroism of passengers:: -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 03:51:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: ::heroism of passengers::more -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:38:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- ::oops: pittsburgh, not philly [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 03:53:09 (EDT)
__ silvia -:- Argentinian newspaper news say yes -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:24:04 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Argentinian newspaper news say yes -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 01:15:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ silvia -:- Re: Argentinian newspaper news say yes -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:31:16 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Re: question -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:07:18 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: question -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:35:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Cynthia, Love and Support to you -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 01:02:13 (EDT)

bill burke -:- Mixing religion an politics is always a mistake -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 22:44:26 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- ::U.S. Factions Testing Waters:: -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:01:22 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- ::Cruise Missile Strikes Imminent for Bin Laden:: -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:16:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: ::Cruise Missile Strikes Imminent.. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:24:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- that fills out missing pices -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:54:29 (EDT)
__ janet -:- in either direction! either bailiwick. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:53:39 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: in either direction! either bailiwick. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:38:44 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Hey Janet -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:04:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hey Dermot -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:27:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Hey Dermot -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:43:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ don p. -:- Re: Hey Janet -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:20:00 (EDT)
__ __ don p. -:- Re: in either direction! either bailiwick. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:47:36 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Is this what they call Kali-Yuga? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:56:42 (EDT)
__ Gail -:- Re: Is this what they call Kali-Yuga? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:33:15 (EDT)
__ Sir David -:- Explosions have rocked Kabul -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:25:09 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Explosions have rocked Kabul -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 03:08:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You cannot fight the causes -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:49:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: You cannot fight the causes -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:51:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Dr Strangelove, here we come!(joke?) [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:31:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- not (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:41:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- they check every flight here -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:01:03 (EDT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Re: Is this what they call Kali-Yuga? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:21:27 (EDT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Re: Is this what they call Kali-Yuga? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 19:09:47 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: Is this what they call Kali-Yuga? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:39:24 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Is this what they call Kali-Yuga? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 19:06:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I'm fine Deb... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:46:59 (EDT)

Bin Liner -:- I shan't be using this name again.. -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:49:12 (EDT)
__ janet -:- good idea dorrity-agreed -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:51:51 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Thoughful of you [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:26:19 (EDT)
__ PatC -:- Thanks, PatD [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:38:33 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Love prayer tonight -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:45:43 (EDT)

Carlos -:- Response to terrorist atack OT -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:16:27 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:59:48 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Religious convictions - a life sentence?
Message:

'Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction'
[Pascal, Pensees (1670)]

I found the following interesting reading. Apparently the religion of Islam does NOT condone such appalling attacks as the ones on New York and Washington yesterday.

Extracts from an article by Giles Foden, published Wednesday September 12, 2001 in 'The Guardian'

It is by no means clear that these attacks were by Muslim
terrorists. One of the first assumptions made after the Oklahoma
bombing by white supremacist Timothy McVeigh in 1995 was
that Islamic fundamentalists were responsible. As a senior US
intelligence official put it yesterday: 'We don't know who's doing
it. Clearly, it's terrorism-related, a carefully coordinated attack.
It's not the work of an unsophisticated enemy.'

Yet the modus operandi and level of organisation is very much
that of Al Qaeda, the 5,000-strong group run by Osama bin
Laden. If it is his group, the Yemeni/Saudi billionaire and
one-time US ally against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan
will be staying on the FBI's most wanted list in Washington's
Federal Plaza for a good deal longer.

Well financed, with a presence in at least 25 countries, Al
Qaeda is one of the biggest threats to US security currently
existing. It is all the more frightening because it is driven by a
form of Islam - involving radical misreading of the Koran - that
millions of peaceable Muslims worldwide would find impossible
to recognise.

Another possible organiser of yesterday's attack is Saddam
Hussein, whose air defence systems recently shot down a US
spy plane over Iraq. Then there is the nightmare scenario that
was reported speculatively a few years ago - an alliance
between Saddam and Bin Laden.

… Yesterday, Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of al-Quds al-Arabi, said
that Bin Laden 'warned three weeks ago that he would attack
American interests in an unprecedented attack, a very big one'.
But he added: 'We received several warnings like this.' As a
matter of fact, there are roughly 1,000 warnings a year about
attacks on US establishments, according to state department
figures, and the rate of actual attacks is rising year on year.

… If members of Al Qaeda are responsible for yesterday's attacks,
it may be some time before a claim of responsibility is made.
Recognition by western media, in particular CNN - the medium
by which this outrage has been played out in real time to a
global audience - is the last thing such an organisation as Al
Qaeda needs. All that is necessary, so the argument goes, is
that Allah knows, so the bomber may gain entrance to paradise
as a consequence of his 'jihad job'. And Allah knows
everything, even before it has happened - since, as the Koran
puts it, he 'knows every soul's whisper' and is 'closer to him
than the jugular vein'.

The false logic of the suicide bomber is no less internalised:
anything can be justified by a bogus appeal to Allah and
judiciously selected passages from the Koran.
This is what
distinguishes an organisation such as Al Qaeda from nationalist
separatist terrorist groups of the last two decades (IRA, PLO) or
the Marxist-Leninist groups of the 1970s (Red Army Faction,
Baader-Meinhof, Red Brigade). For the suicide bomber, there
are no equivocating questions such as those sketched out by
Camus and Sartre in their plays about revolutionary terrorism,
Les Justes [The Righteous] and Les Mains Sales [Dirty Hands].
Entrance to paradise, that 'walled and lofty garden, its clusters
night to gather', is justification enough.

The appeal to apparently unimpeachable divine authority, as
opposed to the more flexible aims of earthly politics, is what
makes the clash between fundamentalist Islam and western
values seem so cataclysmic. It was Kipling's 'big battalions'
that we saw coming together yesterday; or, as Benjamin Barber
coined it for the title of a book about how jihad and corporate
values threaten democratic sovereignty, 'Jihad v McWorld'.

The phrase 'jihad job' comes from the recently concluded trial of
four Al Qaeda members convicted of the bombing of the US
embassies in East Africa in 1998. One of the issues in that trial
was whether such attacks, in particular suicide, could be said to
be genuinely Islamic in any way. A New York imam was brought
to explain that they could not.

'Absolutely not,' he replied when asked by the prosecution
whether Islam endorsed suicide. 'In fact, I'll tell you what the
prophet said. It's very scary. That if a person commits suicide,
then in the hereafter that person will be in the hell-fire
committing that suicide over and over again. For instance, if a
person, you know, jumped off of a tall building, his punishment
in the hell fire would be to relive that over and over again: he will
go to a tall building and jump off, and go back to the top and
jump off again. For all eternity. So suicide is frowned upon
completely in Islam because it represents an act of lack of faith
- a permanent move in a temporary condition.'

One thing is certain, even in our temporary condition. If Islamic
fundamentalists were responsible for yesterday's horror, and the
US responds in kind, the clash of the big battalions is set to
grow louder and more terrible.

END

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 11:46:06 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Why all this is not OT
Message:
I'm really grateful that I wasn't born in a situation where I got programmed into a fundamentalist/absolutist religious reality. I'm also grateful I had my basic needs met so that my survival needs didn't get allied with my religious beliefs - a more intense alliance than Sadam and Bin Laden.

But wait a minute... I did experience this! Most of us here have experienced religious fundamentalism from the inside. And most of us here have freed ourselves from it. But we mostly didn't have the accompanying survival desperation that probably makes it really sticky. I mean, I left the ashram with a ticket home and nothing more, but at least I had parents and a country (although I was being thrown out of America at the time which had become my country, so I had a taste of losing what felt like homeland).

And, like many people who have posted here, I don't see the obvious fundamentalism of Muslims as the only problem. It's just as absurd a belief system to think it's okay to bomb everyone else, but that an attack on America is the 'greatest tragedy ever' (someone told me this was said on TV yesterday).

Since we are talking about this on the ex-premie forum, I think it makes sense to note where our reactions to this whole terrorist situation are actually NOT 'OT' (off-topic). Many of us here are experts at unravelling religious fundamentalism and other absurd belief systems. We are here to be available to people trying to jump over the wall from the premie cult. (And we're also here for fellowship, or because of our internet habit, or whatever). But what occurs to me is that we actually have a skill that is very useful in this world. The ability to switch beliefs and wake up within a mass trance and actually get out of it is no mean feat. It's a very cool feat. Many of us have done it, or are in the process of doing it. When you have sat on both sides of a wall, your consciousness expands to become much more inclusive (after you get over the initial right/wrong phase). This ability to have inclusive consciousness is what I think the world needs to heal. At first you are one of the yay-sayers. Then you wake up and become one of the 'naysayers,' then you wake up again and explore the fact that there are two sides and that you have passionately done your 'Jihad' thing on both of them, and that perhaps the 'truth' is bigger and has to do with being able to include the whole thing with love. This is the process I've been going through in many areas of my life––(premiedom and ex-premie-dom being the least of the walls I have found myself crossing, BTW). This fluid ability––actually it's a WILLINGNESS–– to shift beliefs and hold both sides in compassion is something that many of us here have had particular training in. If all consciousness is connected at some level, do you think it's possible that this ability or willingness can be shared and passed on through 'prayer' or intention? I do.

Of course, to repeat myself, so much of the adherence to certain belief systems comes from survival or greed (as in being a dispossessed Palestinian or a Texan 'oil-man' etc.). And it IS much harder to shift when a belief system is allied with survival.

But I have come to feel that the awareness of this belief-fluidity is the exact frequency that I want to project in my prayers around this situation (and the world situation in general). It feels like a bit more space around things, that can lubricate the jarring tendency to polarize into the right/wrong world.

Last night we held a 'love prayer' at our house, and a bunch of people came over and said what they were feeling, and sent healing and love to the whole situation, as well as sharing information about where to give blood, etc. (Apparently here in San Francisco there are 5-6 hour lines of people waiting to give blood!).
I can't give blood for health reasons, but what I found myself imagining, or visualizing, or 'feelitizing' was that this almost inexpressible fluid quality I have tried to describe here is inundating the situation. Nibbling away at the edges of things. Gradually infiltrating so that it becomes more and more of a 'mass-meme' that there is more than one side to every situation, and compassion and tolerance become more and more taken for granted.

Anyone care to join me in this, since this is a forum of true experts?

Love ktd

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:35:03 (EDT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Wonderful thoughts. Thanks.
Message:
Much appreciate your observations on conscious fluidity of view. This is excellent to hear. Thanks.
Love Bryn
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:18:50 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Why all this is not OT
Message:
Hi Disculta,

Excellent post by the way. I related to what you had to say. The whole idea of reading about a Real escalated Jihad had hit home for me because in our ex-premie world we were just hit with our very own.

I noticed that the premie trolls have quieted down in the last couple of days because of the seriousness of bad thoughts gone worse. And for what, a personal god conviction. Why don't they just walk away? I have been very disappointed in the cult for that cyberstalking incident. And just when I thought I couldn't more disappointed.
And of course, the Jihad is also internalized for us as well. Very astute of you to point that out. It is so easy to externalize every action that happens.

The part of your post that was real helpful was where you talked about going form the 'yeasayers' to the 'naysayers' and then beyond the 'naysayers'. I don't know what part of my process I am experiencing now but I look forward to being on the other side of that wall. What was grief and anger has turned to sadness and slowly the energy is finding equilibrium. It's very difficult because one can only do so much with what is given. However, having the right words at the right time loosens the yolk and allows greater freedom of movement. It's a great priviledge that we are all at different phases. How unique it is to have people to talk to who have truly walked in your shoes. It's balanced against how isolated I feel some times reflecting that I have been in a cult. It makes me feel so outcasted. I look at students or people on the street and think THAT person would never be in a cult. How could it have happened to me? Then I self inflict my own outcasting. Then I come here, and it helps put it in perspective.

Now I see how fragile the world and our existence is for everyone. Cult or no cult. The crisis is also helping me put my own life into perspective. Again, thanks for such a nice post.

Deborah

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:02:10 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Wonderful, Disculta...
Message:
I loved what you said. I can't add anything, except to thank you for your brave kind words.

Love to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:44:48 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: All
Subject: survivors found
Message:
NEW YORK (Reuters) - A ray of hope emerged from the destroyed World Trade Center on Tuesday as two police officers were pulled alive from the rubble, and others trapped inside made desperate pleas for help via cell phones.
New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani said two police officers of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which had its headquarters inside the trade center complex were pulled out alive.
Giuliani along with New York Police Commissioner Bernard Kerik said emergency services were receiving phone calls from people trapped inside the remains of the 110-story twin towers.
A police department source told Reuters the trapped callers have dialed the 911 emergency number and were trying to describe to police where they were trapped.
Giuliani said the callers are also saying there are other people alive nearby them.
However, doctors manning the emergency triage center at the NYU Downtown Hospital said they saw mostly firefighters coming in for treatment.
``We keep hearing word that they are finding pockets of people, and that´s why we´re all excited and standing around here. But I just walked over there an hour ago and it didn´t seem like we were getting real close to that,´´ said Dr. Harold van Bosse speaking from the Mount Sinai NYU Medical Center´s NYU Downtown Hospital.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:32:14 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: 4 more planes were shot down
Message:
Four more hijacked planes were shot down by the US military. Seems like there were many phone calls from the planes to the passenger's relatives. Looks like the hijackers wanted them to phone their loved ones to tell them what was happening.

It also looks like the plane that crash landed in PA was taken over by the passengers who crash landed it. Phone calls from the plane have indicated that. The terrorists got the pilots to leave their cockpits by stabbing all the airline stewardesses. How terrible it must have been on those planes.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:03:58 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: 4 more planes were shot down
Message:
Dave:

Thanks. I haven't heard any of this on the news yet. So, there were a total of 5 other planes that did not reach their target? Is this true? If so I wish it were broadly known. Such news would be very heartening, although of course also very sad.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:06:36 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You guys believe any rumor !
Message:
Strange .......
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:13:32 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rumor
Message:
I have seen nothing verifying the report that other than 4 planes were involved (though anything is possible at this point), but there is independent verification that the plane that went down in PA was taken over by passengers, based on a cell phone call to the wife of one of the passengers so engaged. I don't think it's a rumor, though the details of the story may change over time.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:47:01 (EDT)
From: Will the Real God
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Please Stand Up
Message:
Christians, Jews and Muslims all invoke the name of God to justify their violent behavior. People willing to kill themselves and others for the sake of their political/religious views. Were not these all just small time cults that evolved over time and effective marketing into so-called major religions?

Wait until the real God gets back from his extended vacation. There's gonna be some serious SMITING.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:52:29 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Will the Real God
Subject: Ta - now will the real God please sit down..
Message:
Gods are bad enough, but at least can they do a very good impression of indifferent, neutral, don't-give-a-toss non-beings. They, at least, will not make thinks any worse. But it's their fucking brain-deaded, boneheaded, fanatical fan-base who are a whole other ball game.

A pox on all your temples...

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:13:29 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Will the Real God
Subject: Stick to a Handle or GO AWAY
Message:
ASSHOLE
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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:03:24 (EDT)
From: You're Just like a premie
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Shut your trap
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:55:56 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Will the Real God
Subject: How about we just get rid of God?
Message:
Then nobody has to die in his name. Do you think those terrorists would have flown airplanes into buildings, knowing they're going to die, if they didn't believe their reward would be great in heaven? I doubt it. I think if more people believed that THIS IS IT they'd think twice about putting themselves and others in harm's way, if that's their intent.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:47:02 (EDT)
From: The Real God
Email: None
To: Will the Real God
Subject: Re: Please Stand Up
Message:
Sure there will be, am making a real big boot as of this moment. How is first?
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:22:18 (EDT)
From: Will the Real Poster
Email: None
To: The Real God
Subject: choose a name and stick to it.
Message:
so we know who the fuck we are talking to.

Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 03:58:51 (EDT)
From: like u're doing
Email: None
To: Will the Real Poster
Subject: Re: choose a name and stick to it.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:04:25 (EDT)
From: Beware of the Brit Bully
Email: None
To: Will the Real Poster
Subject: Re: choose a name and stick to it.
Message:
just relax boy and stop being such a doofus...I didn't ask for your opinion...if you don't like it, then don't read it
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:23:15 (EDT)
From: It gets really confusing if
Email: None
To: Will the Real Poster
Subject: you don't sign your name.
Message:
doesn't it?
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:23:59 (EDT)
From: How the fuck do you know
Email: None
To: It gets really confusing if
Subject: who wrote what?
Message:
eh?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:01:24 (EDT)
From: God's Mother
Email: None
To: How the fuck do you know
Subject: Re: who wrote what?
Message:
That's why he's a god you silly person.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:18:07 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I have an uncomfortable hunch
Message:
That Bush and israel are behind this.

An unpopular President in times of immenant recession now has the whole country behind him.

The US involvement with israel is no secret - anti Islam feeling will trigger further repercussions

Oil is an issue - Bush is an oil man - the US has been importing all its oil for the past decade - and stockpiling its own resources.. and yet the price per gallon in the US has just gone up by 400%

In the short term, America is unified against an external racial/religious enemy.

Bush becomes the father they all need.

Americans are flocking to their churches in another knee-jerk - I wonder if maha will pick up on the hysteria and summon the faithfull to amaroo

media wise its like Diana's funeral all over again.. and i bet the media will spin it on and on and make it worse when shock turns to anger...

I wish we were in safer and more deeply intelligent hands...

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:00:44 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Just love those conspiracy theories
Message:
It was just a matter of time before they started coming out of the woodwork. You're right on time, Loaf.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:04:51 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: P.S.
Message:
And when they figure who's definitely behind this, what say we put them on a space shuttle and send them to the moon with limited oxygen supply until they can play nicely with the other children on this planet?
You know, one big time out!
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:00:06 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: I have an uncomfortable hunch
Message:
Don't feel so bad. You aren't the first person I've heard this from, myself included, especially after the s s fund being eyed for funds, after the guy was interviewed who recruits suicide pilots, etc. but mostly since our fearless leader's daddy was head of the who know what for years and years, before becoming an elected official. Remember the failed raid with the helicoptor crash? Guess who was behind that, and that's fact. The most bone chilling sight I ever saw in my entire life was the Big Boy's Daddy at a fundraiser for his re-election. I thought I was looking at Hitler. The crazed fanatacism was too much to comprehend. It was worse than seeing the mob fanatics go at it in a foreign country.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:10:08 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: To some extent , yes but
Message:
I cannot possibly believe that Bush was in Cahoots with Israel. I do indeed feel the unfortunate events of yesterdays tradgedy may well make an awful president look good.

No matter how inept and sophmoric Bush's abilities are as a world leader, he will probably be able to rally the support of the multidutes and the political constituents of all political parties behind him in whatever way he chooses to retailiate.

It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs of the government and the minds of the people in this nation that it may to come to this kind a fanatacism.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:24:51 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: my post above
Message:
Dear all

I did not mean any offence and nor do I have a political agenda.. it was a naive thought.

My heartfelt sympathies to all affected by this dreadful and dark event.

What I wrote above was simply a horrific idea - ghastly beyond measure, but something of the cold and calculating and tactical nature of long-range economic politics flashed to me.

I am not seriously proposing conspiracy theories.. i mean that would be as unthinkable as suggesting the Lee harvey oswald was a patsy - but what I am aware of is that there are vested interests for whom this is not a disaster.

Once you start to play God, there is no difference between bombing somebody elses building, or engineering the 'bombing' of your own - it is reduced to a matter of tactics in this huge game of global chess - the emotions of the populace are manipulated on a daily basis anyway, why (in principal) should this be any different ?

The fact that any such agenda is 'unthinkable' makes it far harder to trace -

I was only postulating a thought.. I am not in any way happy with this idea, i just thought I would share it.

Compassion is all

Loaf

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:10:27 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: I have an uncomfortable hunch
Message:
So then, the terrorists who flew the planes to their deaths, did so out of their fanatic devotion to Bush and Israel. No wait... so okay, the terrorists were Israelis. No wait... wait... Loaf, I'm confused.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:24:08 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: The terrorists trained at Daytona Beach
Message:
Some of the terrorists trained at the flying school in Daytona Beach (is that in Florida?). But it's preposterous to suggest that this was some sort of CIA plan to create a war. I mean, the Pearl Harbour attack was known about before it happened. I believe Churchill knew about it and maybe the president of the USA (rumour has it).

No, it's preposterous to suggest that American intellegence or military knew this was going to happen. Actually, they had fair warning but why didn't they act? They were warned just recently of a big terrorist attack. Why not do the obvious? - Put armed guards on all domestic and international airlines. It's an obvious solution and far cheaper than what they're doing now.

Just ONE armed guard on each plane would have prevented this catalogue of disasters.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:30:21 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The problem with arming a guard
Message:
is that an armed guard could be overtaken and the weapons taken from him can be used to do the very thing that the guard was trying to prevent.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for armed guards, but I think that they need to be in a secure area along with the pilots, and unpenetratable from the cabin. Like in some sort of bullet proof plexiglass bubble, or for equal air pressurization purposes, say a cage with bars and the keys held within.

What is certain is, that air travel as we know it will never be the same after today. I am sure that the federal air marshall program will be stepped up in the immediate future.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:29:58 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: gallows humor
Message:
I've got it!! issue guns standard to every passenger! yeah! thats the ticket! parachutes and guns.any Hijacker tries to get up and swagger over the passengers, he finds himself met with a gun from every side! yeah! and the guns stay on the plane. one cabled to every seatback with the tray tables. cant bring em on or take em off. but there they are if someone gets feisty. and the pilots cabin is airtight and bulletproof, so they can finish the flight even if the passengers all kill each other on the way. at least they get the jet ome in one piece.

is everybody satisfied, now?? think thats enough deterrance?

or wait--i know! everyone flies naked. yeah. you have to strip to your skin to pass xray before going into the plane, check it all at the gate. and then you spend the whole trip in your own opaque, single passenger, bulletproof cell, locked in, until arrival at destination. and the seats have toilets built in. you debark naked, one cell remote activated opening at a time.as you leave the plane you receive a standard issue courtesy robe to go claim your clothes and baggage and redress in single cubicles, before leaving the terminal.

yeah.

i can dream, can't i?

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:44:10 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Domestic airline security..
Message:
Intermittently over the last few years there have been numerous media reports over here in the UK about how lax US Domestic airline security was in comparison to Europe and the middle east.

A report this evening said when things settle down over in the US and more partisan, conentious issues get discussed, the fact that ALL US domestic airlines STRONGLY resisted Clinton attempts to greatly enhance security for airlines will be brought up. Maybe even with enhanced security the hijackers would still have pulled it off. Even so I bet some Airline execs will even now be covering their asses in case of future recrimination.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:42:56 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Domestic security..here is another solution
Message:
Like Sir Dave suggested, 'Armed Guards', Sky Marshalls on all flights, both uniformed up front in a fortressed inpenetratable cockpit with the pilots, and also undercover in the passenger section.

It would be expensive but well worth insuring the safety of passengers lives and inhibiting future terrorist acts.

Yesterdays tragedy could have been averted had such security measures been in place

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 11:34:52 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave
Message:
Sir Dave,
It's great to see you posting again. I've missed your eminent presence these past weeks. I hope things are well with you.
Rick
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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 07:05:05 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Thanks Rick
Message:
I did feel moved to comment on the disasters in America.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:31:10 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: I have an uncomfortable hunch
Message:
That Bush and israel are behind this.

---

That's a horribly cynical point of view.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:53:33 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Cynicism.
Message:
you are quite right a0aji, it is a horribly cynical point of view. I don't agree with the theory either.

However, recent history shows that there are some horribly cynical people in power, and sometimes they do indeed instigate horrible, cynical things. I could give you some examples, but I'm not in the mood, and I'm sure you're not either.

History helps us understand the present and see through the spin of politicians and the media.

By the way, did you know that the original 'Cynics' were a bunch of Greek philosphers who were renowned for speaking the truth bluntly.

Anth the sininic.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:54:19 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Cynics peeing in streets
Message:
Yes, they spoke the truth bluntly, and then they would walk around the streets peeing to express their rebellion with the status quo. So they were called 'cynics' from the Greek for dog.

Woof woof. I don't know about all these conspiracy theories, but a friend of mine on the phone yesterday did say she was leaving her money in the stock market because it historically goes up at times like this.

Love and compassion is all isn't they?

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 12:47:18 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: I heard there was a rush for gold
Message:
Disculta, and OUT of the stock market. So maybe your friend is about to gain a lot OR lose a lot :)

What a crazy ole world we live in huh?

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:05:46 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: You're a dope. (nt)
Message:
hhditd
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:55:14 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You're a dope, not Loaf
Message:
I have read a number of Loaf's posts here and on RE, although not in awhile. (Have you gone off the deep end since then Loaf? :)
I know him, through his posts, to be a wonderful person, creative and caring.
I don't think the theory is correct but he was just putting a thought he'd had into writing. He isn't drumming the bushes for supporters.
Hello to you both and anyone else who reads this, it's been a long time for me, since even lurking here. Feels like visiting old friends.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 00:16:26 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: hi robyn
Message:
Aww how sweet !

Gone off the deep end ? erm.... i cant even swim !

How are you ? long time no see. Thanks for your kind message.. I am touched .

Loafie

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 07:56:40 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: hi Loaf
Message:
Dear Loaf,
I'm good, after the most intense summer of my life, things have calmed down and gotten steadily better so now I am just to busy to spend much time here. I've been sick is the only reason I've 'stopped by' at all. :)
Hope you are well.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:59:10 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hi, Robyn
Message:
Hope you are well and happy and over you own crisis by now.

Lots of love,

P

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:25:12 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: a correction Pat
Message:
Hey, I knew when I posted that it wasn't Charles or Charlile but could not come up with any other name!!! Can I blame my cold! Sorry CHUCK! :)
Love,
me
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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 07:59:58 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Hi, Pat
Message:
Dear Pat,
Thanks, things are greatly improved. This will be a life long thing for Jade but I really feel she is stepping up to the plate so to speak and has a real chance to deal with this and come out well.
I haven't forgotten, I still owe Charles an email, lots of people actually. :
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 13:55:21 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: a newsy email would be nice [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:09:36 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: You're a dope, not Loaf
Message:
Hi Robyn
I am responding to your post as an 'anyone who reads this' I don't think I have talked to you before I don't post here much but do lurk a lot.
Bye for now Magiclara
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 11:35:17 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scotty - I am worried about myself...
Message:
I am starting to sound like david icke... and except from his website below.

I must be losing it !

www.davidicke.com
(on the subject of how to steer political direction :)

....You know that if you offer these policies openly the people will react against them. So you first create a PROBLEM, a rising crime rate, more violence, a terrorist bomb, a government collapse, or you get one of your Illuminati puppets like Saddam Hussein to go to war.

You make sure someone else is blamed for this problem and not you, the real people behind it all. So you create a "patsy", as they call them in America, a Timothy McVeigh or a Lee Harvey Oswald. You then use your media to tell people what they should think about your manufactured event and who they should blame for it. This brings us to stage two, the REACTION from the people - "This can't go on what are THEY going to do about it?"

This allows THEY to then openly offer the SOLUTION to the problems they have created - new legislaation which advances their agenda of centralisation of global power or the erosion of more basic freedoms. This technique is being used all the time on the human mind and emotions...

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:57:07 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Bush isn't looking good.
Message:
Hi Loaf,

The impression Bush created yesterday was one of someone out of his depth. After the tragedy, he bolted to Lousianna, then Nebraska, before obviously being advised to get back to the White House.

His public appearances on TV give the impression of someone who has just learned to read, stumbling through his lines.

The guy's a loser.

All that remains is to see which group of dark-skinned civilians he's going to bomb in 'revenge'. This, of course, won't be terrorism, it will be a 'retaliatory attack'.

It goes from bad to worse.

Anth the contraire.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 19:40:53 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Bush isn't looking good.
Message:
Dear Anth,
Here, here!
This young guy at work worship's GW Jr! It sickens me. He said today, he thought Bush was doing and excellent job. I asked, what exactly has he done? He said, he has pulled America together and instilled trust and calm and that he was keeping looting down. I asked how, he didn't reply. Scary to see someone so young, so brain washed.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:21:27 (EDT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: I have an uncomfortable hunch
Message:
What a terrible tragedy! Although not a fan of W. I do strongly agree with him about the complete unacceptability of harbouring terrorists.
I hope that they will give the Taliban regime the chance to redeem themselves by extraditing Bin Laden. Not for them, I hate those fanatics, but for the many innocent Afghanis going to be killed and wounded in the strikes. Why do some muslims mix up their justified striving for freedom and their rights with the concept of , Jihad?
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:31:38 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Maybe
Message:
Bob,

You asked, 'Why do some muslims mix up their justified striving for freedom and their rights with the concept of , Jihad?'

Maybe one reason is because no body takes any notice of the injustices they are suffering, if they don't take action.

Maybe another reason is that, if you are a Muslim and you die for your religion, as the hijackers did, you will become a martyr and have a guaranteed place in heaven.

Also Bob, history shows us that todays 'terrorist' often becomes tomorrows 'freedome fighter'.

When Israel kills Palestinian civilians, it is 'retaliation'.

When Moslems kill Americans it is 'terrorism'.

The net result seems to be the same, terrible human tragedy.

Anth, trying to figure it all out.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 12:46:40 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Suicide is not martyrdom (see thread above) nt
Message:
sorry to be so brief, but I've got to get home.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:48:02 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I know Chris.
Message:
But the hijackers weren't commiting suicide. They were sacrificing themselves for a higher cause. I'm quite sure they considered they were going to become martyrs. This thought is what inspired teenage Iranian boys to march over landmines when they were at war.

We have a similar concept in the West, though not so high and mighty. It is 'sacrificing yourself for your country', or 'freedom' or something. Some of my relatives did this in the war.

By the way Chris, here's a thought for you. If there is a God and a Heaven, and the hijackers sincerely believed they were doing his work, do you think they'll go to heaven?

Anth trying to fit a Rolls Royce into a rubber boot.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:17:28 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Unlikely
Message:
Loaf: That Bush and israel are behind this.
That is, yes. America is being drawn into a war becuase of its support for the occupation of Palestine by the Israeli state. That much is clear (though perhaps not to the American electorate). Something in excess of two billion dollars of American aid goes to the occupying power every year. Many people live without hope, without the protection of a state, subject to collective punishment, and liable to be killed or tortured at the whim of the squadies in the occupation forces. Witness Qana. Witness Sabra. Political leaders are routinely murdered by the Israeli state, homes demolished, lives and livlihoods destroyed. There is war waged against a captive civilian population.

Now and in the future the forces of destruction available to the poor and disposessed will far exceed what has been available in the past. A divided planet, like a divided society, will be increasingly violent. And yes, it does seem that the thrust of American policy is to increase these divisions, seeming to will a continual concentration of power in fewer and fewer hands.

But to move from that to suggest that political operatives in the Israeli or American establishment conspired or connived in the attacks is too go far too far. No way is it in American interests for it to be humbled so bloodily, and for the vulnerabilities of one of the most free and dynamic societies on earth to be broadcast to everyone. And no way is it in the interests of the Israeli state for its chief sponsor directly to suffer the effects of the war against the occupation. American public opinion is likely to be more concerned about the domestic costs of American foreign policy in future.

That is not something Mr Bush would have wanted.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:47:17 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: but they'll milk it to the max
Message:
bush will use it like his father did--to push his own agenda and add to his phony image.
god i hate him. he looks stupid but hes sooo fucking calculating.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:42:26 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: A cheap shot
Message:
I'm not going into a long discussion here about Israel and your use of the forum to further your political agenda. It was cheap shot.
Fir any reader who is ignorant of the ME history here is another view(not written by me).

ONE OF THE most absurd aspects of the anti-Israel campaign is the attempt to delegitimize Israel and justify Arab atrocities on grounds of arguing that Israel must be prohibited from defending itself unless it does so through the most highly-restrictive rules of behavior. If Israel violates any of these special Israel-specific rules of waging defense, the violation would make Israel into the aggressor and criminal, not the Arab perpetrators of atrocities and aggression.

These rules come in various forms, down to and including 'Mirandizing' terrorists. When Arab armies attack Israel, so runs the first rule, Israel should be restricted to killing a number of Arabs that is LESS than the number of Jews killed by those Arabs. For if Israel were to kill a number of Arabs in defending herself that exceeds the number of Jews killed in the Arab assaults, then this would prove that Israel was the aggressor. Such an argument has been heard regarding every Arab military assault against Israel, and also in Israel's camapign against terrorism in Lebanon and elsewhere. Should the number of Hizbullah terrorists who get killed by the IDF exceed the number of dead Israelis on Israel's borders, this proves that Israel is the aggressor and the real cause of the conflict. Of course, by this same logic the US and Britain were the aggressors against Japan and Germany in World War II, since they killed far more Germans and Japanese than the numbers of Brits and Yanks killed by them.

Then we have the special rules regarding dealing with rioters. There is not a country on earth where rioters can throw rocks at police and military with impugnity except Israel, certainly not in Los Angeles -- as the riots there proved. Yet the anti-Israel campaign demands that Israel turn a Christian cheek when Jews are assaulted by mobs throwing rocks and petrol bombs.

When Palestinian terrorists hijacked a bus full of women, some pregnant, near Ashkelon a few years back, and when one woman was killed in the firefight that forced the release of the bus, some security officiers summarily executed the terrorists, who had infiltrated from across the Green Line. This became the cause celebre of the Israeli lemming Left, which argues that terrorists who are not Israeli citizens have automatic rights to a trial and due process, with a public defender and appeals to the Supreme Court. No doubt Hizbullah terrorists in Lebanon do also. The officers responsible got court martialed instead of receiving medals.

Then we have the rules for interrogating terrorists. Remember we are talking about people who blow up buses of women and children, and make a special effort to target Jewish children. But if Israeli police interrogate them using tactics that any New York cop would regard as sissy pampering, suddenly Israeli 'torture' is a headline. As if police in any other nation facing similar terrorist filth would hesitate to do what is right and needed. (Israel is the only state in the Middle east that does not summarily execute Islamic terrorists. Which may be why it suffers from so much terror.)

Then we have the rule that says that if any Arab civilians get killed by Israel while defending herself, this makes Israel the aggressor and criminal. Israel can only fight wars when no civilians get killed. But since there has never been a war in which civilians did not get killed, such a restriction is equivalent to a requirement that Israel not defend herself militarily. Which, now that you mention it, is what the Anti-Zionists want, since surrender to Arab demands is the only form of Israeli defense they will accept. SO the Arabs remain fascist and racist aggressors when Israel is attacked, but only as long as not a single Arab civilian gets killed by Israel while defending herself.

And now we suddenly have the Anti-Zionist maggots rolling their eyes over a Court decision that allows Israel to grab hostages in Lebanon as bargaining cards. Oh the inhumanity they scream. Never mind that Lebanon is crawling with terrorists, and some Israeli hostages are held by the other side.

Now imagine if the US were to fight World War II using the rules of war that the Anti-Semites insist that Israel (and only Israel) follow. Why, the US troops would parachute into Normandy on D-Day, locate some SS troops, read them their rights, invite them to appeal to the US Supreme Court, invite in the pro-German observers to make sure the SS men were getting high-protein meals with sufficient fiber and vitamins, and that the movies in any prison camps for Nazis be all high quality, that agents for Hitler and Himmler be permitted to run for the US Senate and appear nightly on NBC news, that special care be taken that the number of dead Nazis never exceed the number of Americans killed in Normandy, that only rubber bullets be used against Nazis, and then only when 3 days notice is given so that no civilians remain in the area.

In fact, these special rules for Israel are not the expression of high-minded ethical superior beings holding Israel to a higher standard, as the Anti-Zionist maggots would have it, but rather the attempts of Anti-Semites to delegitimate Israel and rationalize Arab atrocities.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:07:47 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Yo Jeth
Message:
You already know how I feel on many of the issues vis a vis the Mid-east conflict but I'd NEVER deny that Israel the right to exist as a free democratic nation and NEVER deny that Israel, like any other nation,has the right to legitimately defend itself when its very survival is threatened. I also agree that many of the Arab states from the Gulf and elsewhere are far worse than manty states in the world. Real motherfucker potentates without an inkling of freedom and justice.

As you also know I feel really sorry for the run of the mill, average blow Joe Palestinian citizen.

But I'd like to stress to you that I personally sympathise with EVERY innocent victim of conflict, be they Israeli,American,Palestinian,British,Irish,etc etc etc etc etc ....and in equal meausure.

I don't think there is any straightforward black and white good v evil.This world is too complicated and too fucked up for that.

A pity really 'cos if life was like the movies then all the good would fight all the bad....win ....then ride on happily into a bright new world.

Anyway ,all the best to you and yours.

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:02:14 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Hi Dermot (OT)
Message:
Had a disk crash last week and lost all my addresses. Could you email me so I have your address.

jethro

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:51:30 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: the future
Message:
I'm not going into a long discussion here

Steady (and careful with the ad hominems please). What I said is that America is being drawn into a war because of its support of Israel's occupation of Palestine. I did not say that this is a Good Thing or a Bad Thing. I do say it is the fact of the matter (for whatever reason).

The conditions in the occupied territories (in particular, the collective punishments against the captive civilian population) mean that there will continue to be a ready supply of volunteers for suicide missions. Suicide bombers typically come from families where one or more members have been (for whatever reason) maltreated, perhaps killed, in military or police action by the occupying forces. And the advance of technology will make such attacks ever more destructive.

The weakest part of the situation is not the resolve of the Israeli military and political establishment. It is the unwillingness of the American public who finance them to be drawn directly into the war involving its client state. For those reasons, I believe we can expect this kind of action to occur again and again, until the conditions on the ground change.

Saying 'but they are horrid and bad people who have done horrid and bad things' does not help. They are just people like us, who, unlike us, have lost everything and have no hope for the future.

People with hopes for a fulfilling life for themselves and their loved ones do not blow themselves up.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:15:18 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Why?
Message:
Why the tragedy?

Maybe the fact that an estimated 1,000,000 Iraqi children have died since 1991, because of the depleted uranium the US and its allies have used against them.

The US has a 'no-fly' zone over it at the moment. Iraq has had a 'no fly zone' imposed on them for years.

Since the Palestinian uprising, US built Apache helicopters, F-16s, and M-16 rifles have killed 700 Palestinians and injured 25,000 more. The US has given Israel $6 billion in aid this year. This week Israel ordered 50 more F16s.

Although claiming to be the representatives of 'Freedom and Democracy', the US spends billions supporting totalitarian regimes in Egypt, Algeria, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.

The fifth fleet sails round the Gulf, threatening anyone and everyone.

The US, however, is likely to ignore this, and concentrate on demonising Bin Laden and the Taliban, and making plans to kill innocent people elsewhere, in 'revenge'.

The whole situation stinks.

Anth the historian.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:08:54 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Why?
Message:
Anth,
You really nail things on the head with your facts. Do you know how many millionaires were made in the us under our current leader's daddy?
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:51:02 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: I think you are being disingenuous
Message:
If you had any real contact with Islamic Fundamentalists(if in fact it was Is Funds that did this), you'll know that Israel is only one of the things they consider the enemy.

People with hopes for a fulfilling life for themselves and their loved ones do not blow themselves up.

Not true. Many people would die for many causes.
(Many premies would hapilly die for m's cause as would many of the exs here would have.)

You have used this tragic situaution which will be particularly tragic to most of the readers here(as they are Americans).

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:19:55 (EDT)
From: Let's get that quote right
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: I think you are being disingenuous
Message:
'People with hopes for a fulfilling life for themselves and their loved ones do not blow themselves up.......unless someone supposedly wiser convinces them they should for religious or patriotic reasons'
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:34:16 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Let's get that quote right
Subject: self immolation
Message:
It seems that you find it impossible to imagine that a person can be driven by force of circumstances into desperate and terrible acts. Instead you think that a person acting in such ways must have fallen under the control of a malevolent influence, one totally unamenable to reason. Satan, perhaps.

If that is so, if one is facing unreasoning hatred and prejudice, then the only thing to do is to destroy and kill those people. We know where that leads.

I am suggesting instead that the suicide bombers are driven to their acts more because of their personal and tragic histories of seeing members of their own family killed, and having no recourse. The few studies available of suicide bombers show that they (generally) feel an overwhelming sense of having been badly wronged and hurt, and also feel their plight is ignored, that they have no way of correcting the injustice done to their lives.

If that view is the more accurate one, then it becomes possible to consider that a change in circumstances in the occupied territiories may produce fewer people willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for their cause.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:19:07 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Disingenuous ?
Message:
If you had any real contact with Islamic Fundamentalists(if in fact it was Is Funds that did this), you'll know that Israel is only one of the things they consider the enemy.

People with hopes for a fulfilling life for themselves and their loved ones do not blow themselves up.

Not true. Many people would die for many causes.
(Many premies would hapilly die for m's cause as would many of the exs here would have.)

You have used this tragic situaution which will be particularly tragic to most of the readers here(as they are Americans).


---

OK. I stand corrected. People with hopes of a fulfilling life for themselves and their loved ones do blow themselves up, and thousands of others too, if they only get the chance.

It's obvious now you mention it. Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:56:44 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: A lovely post John [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 06:49:27 (EDT)
From: Don't justify Israeli behavior
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: for they are ALSO fucked up [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 07:12:22 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Don't justify Israeli behavior
Subject: you forgot tosign your name(NT)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:25:04 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Unlikely
Message:
i think loaf was just bullshitting ???
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:12:08 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: I have an uncomfortable hunch
Message:
you naughty boy, how dare you....!!
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:10:06 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: But who is the enemy?
Message:
George W Bush is no more than a puppet. The danger is, having an America/Israel versus the Arab World conflict. George W Bush has aligned himself too close to the Israelis. Or rather, he has been pushed into that situation by his puppet masters.

Now his puppet masters will have their war but I sure hope they've worked out the consequences of their actions. On your other note, surely there are millions of Muslims in America. I can't believe that American people would see this in simple racial or religious terms. There is no clear enemy.

There's no country or race that can be singled out as the enemy. We have had this same problem with Northern Ireland. Monthly atrocities and yet neither the Catholics, the Protestants, the people of Eire or the people of Ulster are the enemy. Everybody knows that which makes it all the more difficult to find an enemy to fight.

I hope America will see that their enemy is a tiny number of fanatics who like all terrorists, lie hidden amongst the general population. I just hope that people can see that the Arab world and Muslims in particular, are not their enemies.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:17:57 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: But who is the enemy?
Message:
One would hope, but then the media and politicians have too much at stake, like to throw it all in the blender and hit frappe. Listening to the old men in the donut shop this morning, the ladies in the supermarket check out, the people gathering money at intersections, it's this wave that sweeps over our country and it's very hard to see the clear facts. The sad thing is, most of the billionaires in this country made their money off war, oil and required vaccines for the military.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:45:19 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: They don't care Dave.
Message:
They already have their enemies. Yesterdays tragedy will only spur them on to greater efforts.

As soon as the 'Evil Soviet Empire' collapsed, the status quo in the US decided to make Islam the big new threat to world peace. If there's no enemy, your national economy, based on armaments, collapses.

Anyway, the Ayotollah was ready and waiting, as the representative of Islam. (This was when the US was big pals with Saddam, arming him etc).

Since then it's been Iraq, and now it looks like Afghanistan is going to be next.

Moslems make much better enemies than Russians. They are not Christian and they are dark skinned. Give them a sword or a bomb and you've got the archetype evil, anti-christian, anti-American, terrorist bad guy.

It's incredible, but it looks like the US is going to respond to the terrible murder of innocent civilians by going out and murdering some innocent civilians themselves.

Anth, Where have all the flowers gone?

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:10:55 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You've got it all figured out, don't you?
Message:
Yeah, right, Anth, it's so much more appropriate to demonize the Evil American Empire, as you have been since this latest incident. Do me a favor. Maybe you know something I don't know. Name one occassion where the USA used military force against a foreign power that didn't first launch hostilities itself. Can you think of anybody because I can't.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:10:29 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Still working on it jerry.
Message:
Yeah, right, Anth, it's so much more appropriate to demonize the Evil American Empire, as you have been since this latest incident. Do me a favor. Maybe you know something I don't know. Name one occassion where the USA used military force against a foreign power that didn't first launch hostilities itself. Can you think of anybody because I can't.


---

Hi jerry,

How about the Native Americans, Malaya, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Serbia, Somalia, Panama and Grenada? Althought the US prefers to use third party military governments to do their dirty work (Vietnam), Algeria, Costa Rica, Argentina, Israel, Phillipines, etc.

Try and find a right wing, fascist dictator in the world since 1945, who hasn't been supported, armed and financed by the US.

Jerry, don't take my criticism of your right wing government personally. I love Americans.

Your government however, likes to put on a sheriff badge and strut round the world preaching to us about 'Freedom and Democracy', and shooting at anyone who steps out of line.

Take Algeria, where there was an election a couple of years ago and the fundamentalist Moslems won. Supported by the US and her allies, a military dictorship took over and have been assasinating Moslem opponents ever since. This government is only in power because of support from the US.

What price freedom and democracy in Algeria Jerry? Or is it only for white christians?

Americans are quite heavily brainwashed to believe their country is better than anybody elses. (Do you think this is so Jerry?)

Also Jerry, the demonisation that's going on right now is directed at Moslems, and Afghanis in particular.

Anth the red in the bed.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:59:37 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I agree with your main point, but wish you
Message:
Yeah, right, Anth, it's so much more appropriate to demonize the Evil American Empire, as you have been since this latest incident. Do me a favor. Maybe you know something I don't know. Name one occassion where the USA used military force against a foreign power that didn't first launch hostilities itself. Can you think of anybody because I can't.


---

'd used a better example. Granada and Panama were invad3d by us relatively recently without military provocation. Both the Spanish American War and the US entry into the Vietnam War may have been by mining our own ships. And that's just off of the top of my head, without thinking about it.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:30:38 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Grenada, Vitnam,El salvador, Nicauragua :)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 18:56:19 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Grenada, Vitnam,El salvador, Nicauragua :)
Message:
Are you guys sure that we just waltzed into these countries with no provocation, whatsoever? I was a pretty devout premie at the time and didn't pay much attention to wordly matters, seeing as I was pursuing much more important things like 'realizing' K, but if I recall, there was some provocation from these countries. They weren't just innocent victims of American aggression. Prove me wrong. And I don't think we actually invaded Nicaragua. We provided military assistance to the side we thought was in our best interest to support, but I don't recall any direct action from our military during that conflict.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:59:23 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Remember the Maine ...
Message:
TO HELL WITH SPAIN!

I'm afraid that the States has a long history of using false pretexts for aggression against other countries (and let's not forget the Indian Nations). But, hey, Jer, you weren't there, and it wasn't your fault, anymore than I bear responsibility for the Amritsar massacre.

It is important that we understand history, the better to survive the future. You and I both probably have more interests in common with an office worker in Ramallah than we have with Mr Bush and his ilk.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:33:00 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: all above and more 'sorta' :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:07:39 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: What does that mean, 'sorta'?
Message:
Dermot,

You guys are trying to paint a picture of the US as being a war-mongering nation dropping bombs and invading nations at our leisure without any provocation, whatsoever, from the poor innocents we're attacking. I don't think that's a position you can easily defend, nor do I think it's an accurate portrayal of America. I don't know why you feel a need to portray us in that manner, but saying that's 'sorta' the way it is doesn't help prove it actually is.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:08:41 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: and PS
Message:
These type of discussions are bound to take place after such an event of the terrorist attack on your country. I hope you don't think I'm being insulting or disrepctful just for the fun of it. NO WAY.

What has happened is despicable. No people, no country deserves such an attack.It's a catalogue of perverse suffering and we over here , in Europe and worldwide are sickened by it.Sad doesn't even come close to to describing it.

BUT nothing happens in isolation. As I described the US as an imperial power curiously the US also wants to retain a protective isolationism along side it. That can't be done . A power such as America is inextricably linked with every part of the world. The French empire was happy to spread its architecture throughout its empire and was fanatical anout its colonies speaking French. Britain was happy to install institutions (legal and commercial)but didn't give a shit about what lingo the natives used. As I said , America is a totally different empire.....such an empire that Americans would even deny it's an empire.....but in EFFECT IT IS.Like al Imperial powers its going to have its fair share of detractors, enemies etc and like all imperial powers it's going to to play real politique with morals/ethics taking second place to the consilidation of its intersts and influence worldwide.

But hey not to worry, in 50 -100 years time China will be the world power and USA will be a decrepit shadow of its former self , like Rome, Britain etc :))

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 03:47:33 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: What does that mean, 'sorta'?
Message:
'Sorta' means ....in the case of el salvador and nic especially , as in 'effect' ie really fighting there but doing it through clients such as contras.

Look Jerry , conversely YOU are trying to paint America as some hollywood type whiter than white state. Vitnamese babies are still being born NOW , sebverely deformed after blanket agent orange/napalm attacks that just polluted the country for probably decades to come. No one but Americans have used nuclear weapons.The cia and military has been instrumental in toppling governments ( ok , some of them socialist cum communist but with plans for health,education etc for the people) to replace them with out and out fascist, corrupt leaders....re: chile, phillipines etc tec etc

Look gerry .....my Irish nackground> I fully acknowledge that the IRA have perpetuated horrific crimes....likewise my Brit background > I fully accept via the empire and beyond Britain likewise has committed horrific crimes.....it amazes me that Americans don't admit to their own wrongdoings and criminalities. I think it may be the allegiance to the flag from childhood in your schools, hollywood syruppy historical revisionism,and an isolationist patriotism that refuses to accept that America is in effect (like ancient Rome and Britain in the past ) an imperial power. Of course the structure is different. The empire is more economic (corporations with govt backing), military(bases worldwide and overwhelming technology) and of course propaganda (media and hollywood).

You seem to take criticism of America personally. In my view America is I've described above. I don't believe I'm being subjective . I think this is all objective for all to see.

Americans always seem to be amazed when the rest of the world doesn't see it as a saintly enterprise. I wonder what's in your school history books? Japanese kids think the japs fought an honorable war. In Germany people accept the true facts of nazi horror.

Is it a European thing? Are Germans, Brits etc able to admit the BLOODY smears of their history because Europe has this much longer nation state existence? I don't know. What I do know is your patriotic defence of America appears surreal.

Best wishes to you Jerry.....you're one of favourite posters with a clever and keen mind......I just think your history/ politics stink :))))

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:03:07 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Hollywoooood!
Message:
Dermot,

I'm not arguing for the sainthood of America. And believe me, arguing the virtues of politicians is not my intent. You're probably right that you and I have more in common with an office worker in Ramallah than the aristocrats of government, any government, and I doubt any Americans are finding very much solace in the words of our leaders since this tragedy struck. All they're doing is giving these rah-rah speeches, God-Bless-America, we will prevail, blah-blah-blah, since this shit happenned. The truth is that we just feel very vulnerable now that this has happenned, and all we care about is where the fuck were they that it was allowed to happen? These motherfuckers are supposed to protect us, not open doors to our doom. But don't misunderstand me. Your remarks about the Hollywoodized population is the typical sterotype people have of us. Yeah, a lot of common people do think America is a Hollywood movie. Those of us a little more educated know that's not true and America's involvement in foreign affairs is a lot uglier than some, or most, Americans want to know or would believe. But it's not all black and white. Let's not paint it that way. Just as some people are prone toward believing only the good, others are cynics prone to see NOTHING good. I like to think of myself somewhere in the middle. It's not all good. It's not all bad. A lot of it's ugly. In a dog-eat-dog world maybe making deals with the devil is a necesarry evil. I don't know. I'm just an office worker in NYC. I only know so much. I won't pretend otherwise.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 06:22:06 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: That Leanord Cohen song, Jerry
Message:
....'Democracy is coming to the USA' .... and his little line 'the cradle of the best and the worst '......no I don't paint it black and white.

Hell , some of your culture (mainly outside of Hollywood :) ) is fantastic, you have a built in 'can do' mentality, you ave some of the worlds best science,(and really crap sport that you insist on labelling 'world' this 'world' that, when only you lot follow it :) )
more open government than most, a really cool 'freedom of information ' act,Bob Dylan,amazing national parks,generally open hearted/heart on sleeve mentality,.....and on and on ....

There you go ....you're not ALL bad :)

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:36:48 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Get a clue, Anth
Message:
Anth:

Innocent civilians are invariably killed in war as a consequence of taking out and decimating an enemy's resources and ability to make war, which far far far different from targeting innocent civilians as a means of making policy, or war. Get a clue.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 05:22:14 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I don't get it Scott.
Message:
Anth:

Innocent civilians are invariably killed in war as a consequence of taking out and decimating an enemy's resources and ability to make war, which far far far different from targeting innocent civilians as a means of making policy, or war. Get a clue.

--Scott


---

To me, killing innocent civilians is a crime against humanity. Whether these civilians are killed by American cruise missiles in Bagdhad, or by airliners in New York, it's still a crime. One is no better than the other.

Or do you think innocent civilians killed by the US are 'legitimate targets'. When they kill Americans it's 'terrorism', but when Americans do the same thing to them, it's 'retaliation', or 'a legitimate act of war'. American victims are mourned 24 hours on TV. Moslem victims are dismissed as 'collateral damage'.

And if you believe that civilans are not targeted deliberately, you should read the history of 'Area Bombing', as developed by the British and American Air Forces in WW2. What were the military objectives of bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima?

I think you are being naive here Scott. America (and Britain) have committed more than their fair share of genocide. Don't you have any history books in America?

Anth the commie scumbag.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 16:02:03 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Here's a clue, Scott
Message:
Scott T innocent civilians are invariably killed in war as a consequence of taking out and decimating an enemy's resources

I understand five per cent of America's financial resources has been destroyed. I suppose they mean five per cent of Wall Street.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:35:15 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: gone to graveyards everyone
Message:
When will they ever learn..... When will they ever.... learn.....?
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 23:24:22 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: question
Message:
Just after the Pentagon was hit, news circulated of another passenger jet was heading towards the area. A fighter jet was dispached to interception. Few minutes later the news reported a passanger jet crashing in Philidalphia,. All reference to the second airliner approaching the Pentagon stops and no mention of the fighter jet.

Did the fighter jet shoot down the passenger plane cause it was heading to hit the pentagon again?

The jet liner crashed almost in a remote area, no one was around, then suddenly all the witnesses show up.

Only wondering?

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:23:12 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: question
Message:
the first news i heard on that one was that the plane was downed by
u.s. fighter jets to avoid a suicidal attack , later that was not
mentioned anymore
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 03:45:29 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: ::heroism of passengers::
Message:
Just after the Pentagon was hit, news circulated of another passenger jet was heading towards the area. A fighter jet was dispached to interception. Few minutes later the news reported a passanger jet crashing in Philidalphia,. All reference to the second airliner approaching the Pentagon stops and no mention of the fighter jet.

---

If we're talking about the same thing, it looks like a
passenger on the flight that ultimately crashed near
Philadelphia may be responsible for diverting that aircraft
from a terrorist target in Washington, D.C. I think I
have that right. The Mimai Herald (or another Miami
paper -- city mentioned was Miami) is floating that story,
according to the telecast on TV.

I remember hearing the phrase 'speeding [up?] the Potomac'
in reference to one plane or another -- this was some time
after the initial attention focused on the Pentagon, due to
the explosion there.

Apparently, there was enough on-board hostility prior to
the Philly crash that passengers were able to take note of
it, and make cell phone calls to family who filled them in
on other events in the nation, which in turn led three people
to declare (in the voice of this woman's husband over the
cell phone) words to the effect of 'we know we're going to
die, but we think we can prevent certain other tragedy from
also occurring. So, probably wasn't shot down by military;
probably control was wrested from the terrorists by the
heroism of passengers on board the aircraft!

I can't quite piece together the different parts of this
story, to roll them all into a single narrative (with the
elements of 'speeding up the potomac' and 'military aircraft
dispatched' and 'crashed outside of Philadelphia' included)
and reconcile them with the idea that a passenger was able
to divert from D.C. to Philly -- that's some distance!

That'll be a great story to hear fleshed out, if true.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 03:51:45 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: ::heroism of passengers::
Message:
Just after the Pentagon was hit, news circulated of another passenger jet was heading towards the area. A fighter jet was dispached to interception. Few minutes later the news reported a passanger jet crashing in Philidalphia,. All reference to the second airliner approaching the Pentagon stops and no mention of the fighter jet.

---

If we're talking about the same thing, it looks like a
passenger on the flight that ultimately crashed near
Philadelphia may be responsible for diverting that aircraft
from a terrorist target in Washington, D.C. I think I
have that right. The Mimai Herald (or another Miami
paper -- city mentioned was Miami) is floating that story,
according to the telecast on TV.

I remember hearing the phrase 'speeding [up?] the Potomac'
in reference to one plane or another -- this was some time
after the initial attention focused on the Pentagon, due to
the explosion there.

Apparently, there was enough on-board hostility prior to
the Philly crash that passengers were able to take note of
it, and make cell phone calls to family who filled them in
on other events in the nation, which in turn led three people
to declare (in the voice of this woman's husband over the
cell phone) words to the effect of 'we know we're going to
die, but we think we can prevent certain other tragedy from
also occurring. So, probably wasn't shot down by military;
probably control was wrested from the terrorists by the
heroism of passengers on board the aircraft!

I can't quite piece together the different parts of this
story, to roll them all into a single narrative (with the
elements of 'speeding up the potomac' and 'military aircraft
dispatched' and 'crashed outside of Philadelphia' included)
and reconcile them with the idea that a passenger was able
to divert from D.C. to Philly -- that's some distance!

That'll be a great story to hear fleshed out, if true.


---

..Tom Burnett, 38, the vice
president of a Pleasanton, Calif., medical devices
company and father of three children, called his wife,
Deena, and may have indicated he and other
passengers were about to attempt to overpower the
hijackers.

Burnett told his wife that somebody on the plane had
been stabbed, said Father Frank Colacicco, of St.
Isidore's Church in Danville.

'We're all gonna die, but three of us are going to do
something,'' Burnett told his wife, according to
Colacicco. He added: 'I love you honey'' before the call
ended.
[ Passenger Called Wife From Cell-Phone ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:38:49 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: ::heroism of passengers::more
Message:
from the local paper where flight 93 went down:

United Airlines Flight 93, a Boeing 757-200 en route from New Jersey to San Francisco, fell from the sky near Shanksville at 10:06 a.m., about two hours after it took off, leaving a trail of debris five miles long.
The Washington Post reported that leaders of Congress -- including Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D., Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott, R-Miss., House Majority Whip Tom DeLay, R-Texas and House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt, D-Mo. -- were told at a briefing by the Capitol Police that the hijacked plane might have been bound for the Capitol or Camp David, the presidential retreat in Thurmont, Md., 85 miles southeast of the crash site, according to participants in the meeting.
The participants discussed a possible shoot down of the aircraft, said Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind.
   
More on
terrorist attacks:
'It dropped out of the clouds'
Counselors aid workers at scene of jet crash
Medical teams on standby to go to New York, D.C., Somerset County
      'The question I heard asked was: 'Who has the authority to order a commercial jetliner shot down by the military?' ' Pence said. However, the congressional leaders soon learned that the plane had already crashed.
*********************************************
The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) issued a statement denying that United Flight 93 had been shot down by U.S. military aircraft.
*********************************************
Some witnesses reported that the plane was flying upside down for a time before the crash; others said they heard up to three loud booms before the jetliner went down.
'All of a sudden, terrorism is here in my back yard,' said retired coal miner Charles Rhoades, 80, of Shanksville, who was watching TV when he heard the large boom as the plane went down less than a quarter-mile from his home. 'You live in the country to escape this kind of stuff.'
Authorities weren't ready yesterday to pronounce the crash a result of terrorism. But a telling detail came minutes before the plane went down when dispatchers at the Westmoreland County Emergency Operations Center intercepted a frantic cell phone call made to 911 by a passenger aboard the doomed flight.
'We are being hijacked, we are being hijacked!' the man told dispatchers in a quivering voice during a conversation that lasted about one minute.
'We got the call about 9:58 this morning from a male passenger stating that he was locked in the bathroom of United Flight 93 traveling from Newark to San Francisco, and they were being hijacked,' said Glenn Cramer, a 911 supervisor.
'We confirmed that with him several times and we asked him to repeat what he said. He was very distraught. He said he believeD the plane was going down. He did hear some sort of an explosion and saw white smoke coming from the plane, but he didn't know where.

'And then we lost contact with him.'
Investigators who swarmed to the scene were sparing no effort to uncover the truth.
Law enforcement agencies from Western Pennsylvania and across the state have made the crash their 'primary investigation, if not their only one,' said FBI Special Agent Bill Crowley, spokesman for the Pittsburgh FBI office.
The FBI is coordinating the investigation and relying on the services and expertise of dozens of other local, state and federal agencies, he said. One special evidence response team from Pittsburgh went to the crash scene yesterday, and three more teams are on their way to the site from other parts of the country.
Investigators will be in Somerset County around the clock collecting evidence and performing the gruesome task of body identification, Crowley said.
'We'll do whatever is needed to get the job done,' he said. 'It's going to require the skills of many different agencies.'
Agents seized the 911 dispatch tape from Westmoreland County as part of their investigation.
Information from federal agencies was scant about Flight 93's flight path or final destination after departing from Newark at 8:01 a.m. with 38 passengers, two pilots and five flight attendants aboard.
Rep. John Murtha, D-Johnstown, said last night he could only guess that the plane's likely target was 'a second shot at the Pentagon or the Capitol or the White House itself.'
'The destination sure wasn't an open field,' he said. 'It's fortunate it didn't come down sooner, on Johnstown.'
Murtha also said the Pentagon denied reports that the 757 was being shadowed by U.S. military aircraft. But he suggested that terrorists would have picked the 757 because it would have worked as a fuel-packed bomb. A 757-200 can carry up to 11,276 gallons of fuel.
'Since they couldn't have explosives on the plane, the next best thing is aviation fuel,' he said.
Flight 93 may have gotten as far west as Ohio before turning around. The Cleveland mayor's office told The Associated Press that an airplane in distress had passed through Cleveland-area airspace before being handed off to Toledo, although it was not clear that the plane was Flight 93.
As the plane neared Pittsburgh, Mayor Tom Murphy stayed in contact with the FBI and the Federal Aviation Administration.
'We were in communication with the FBI and the FAA about the jet as to where it was,' Murphy said. 'They had the jet coming out of Cleveland and losing it when it came into Pittsburgh airspace, and there was no communication with it, and we were concerned.'
At the John P. Murtha Johnstown-Cambria County Airport near Johnstown, a call from air traffic controllers in Cleveland set off 10 minutes of high tension before the plane crashed 14 miles southeast of the airport.
Dennis Fritz, the air traffic manager, got a call from controllers in Cleveland warning the Johnstown airport -- which has no radar of its own -- that a large aircraft was 20 miles south and had suddenly turned on a heading for Johnstown.
'It was an aircraft doing some unusual maneuvers at a low level, which is unusual for an aircraft that size,' Fritz said last night. 'It happened so quickly.'
He said workers in his own tower scanned south, toward the horizon, with binoculars, but couldn't see any aircraft, leading Fritz to believe that the plane was flying somewhere in the 2,800 foot high ridges in that part of the Allegheny front.
Then, somewhere within the air zone, about 15 miles south of Johnstown, the plane turned again toward the south.
Shortly before it went down, another call was made to the Westmoreland County 911 center from a Mount Pleasant Township resident who said he could see a large plane flying low and banking from side to side.
The impact 'sounded like dynamite,' said Lucy Menear, 83, who lives less than a half-mile from the crash site. 'It seems as though everything was falling apart.'
Eric Peterson, 28, was working in his shop in the Somerset County village of Lambertsville yesterday morning when he heard a plane, looked up and saw one fly over unusually low.
The plane continued on beyond a nearby hill, then dropped out of sight behind a tree line. As it did so, Peterson said it seemed to be turning end-over-end.
Then Peterson said he saw a fireball, heard an explosion and saw a mushroom cloud of smoke rise into the sky.
Peterson rushed to the scene on an all-terrain vehicle and when he arrived he saw bits and pieces of an airliner spread over a large area of an abandoned strip-mine in Stonycreek Township.
'There was a crater in the ground that was really burning,' Peterson said. Strewn about were pieces of clothing hanging from trees and parts of the Boeing 757, but nothing bigger than a couple of feet long, he said. Many of the items were burning.
Peterson said he saw no bodies, but there also was no sign of life.

Throughout the day, as a plume of smoke hung in the sky, a steady stream of firefighters, police cars, emergency management crews, national guard members and local volunteers swarmed over the crash site. Dotted with strip mines, woods and cornfields, the site is atop a gradual, 500-yard-long slope about one or two miles south of Route 30 near Stoystown.
Jeff Killeen, an FBI spokesman from Pittsburgh, said the main thrust of the agency's investigation will begin today when authorities divide the crash scene into grids and comb the area for evidence.
Yesterday, the priority of the FBI and state troopers was to protect the scene.
'The FBI will follow every lead to bring this case to a successful conclusion,' Killeen said during a news conference held at the foot of the hill below the crash site under a hastily erected white tent.
Investigators did not locate the plane's flight data recorder or cockpit voice recorder, the so-called black boxes that would give information about the plane's behavior as well as conversations in the cockpit.
There were 20 FBI agents on hand yesterday, and another 30 were expected last night. The contingent of 100 state troopers was expected to swell to 150. They planned to spend last night spaced out along the crash perimeter within each other's eyesight to ward off curiosity seekers and prevent anyone from tampering with evidence.
Two curiosity seekers were arrested for trying to get through the perimeter, one of them aboard an all-terrain vehicle.
Also on hand were officials from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency, the Federal Aviation Administration and United Airlines. A team from the National Transportation Safety Board was en route.
Gov. Tom Ridge arrived about 6:15 p.m., flying over the crash scene in a National Guard helicopter before being briefed on the ground by state police.
The FBI issued a plea for anyone who saw Flight 93 before it crashed to call 412-471-2000.
Killeen said agents were looking for facilities in the area to use as repositories for evidence and human remains, noting that no morgue had been established.
Joseph McKelvey, executive director of the Johnstown-area airport, said he didn't know whether it would be an operations headquarters or serve as a morgue.
But as he spoke, one of the few planes in the skies over America, a United Airlines 727 arrived carrying what McKelvey said was equipment for the recovery, and a half dozen rental trucks pulled into the airport to carry the equipment to the crash scene.
'This is the one airport [in the region] that can handle about any aircraft in the world,' McKelvey said. Normally, the Johnstown airport handles five commercial passenger flights a day.
Last night police and National Guard sealed off the airport to regular traffic, at one point shutting down state Route 219 a four-lane highway that is only 500 yards from airport property. It was later reopened, but access roads to the airport remained sealed.
Throughout the day, beginning at 9:44 a.m., United Airlines updated its Web site with information about the crash of Flight 93 and Flight 175, a Boeing 767 that was crashed into the World Trade Center.
The airline stated it would send families of the victims aboard the two flights an initial sum of $25,000 each to help meet immediate needs.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 03:53:09 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: ::oops: pittsburgh, not philly [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:24:04 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Argentinian newspaper news say yes
Message:
Plane shut down

Translation:

A Boeing 747 plane secuestered in Pittsburgh, going from New York to Washington generated during more than an hour a state of absolute panic, since it was uncertain where it could have fall.
According to latest news, the plane was shut down by a militar plane and in that way avoiding that could have crushed on a building of the USA Government. etc., etc....

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 01:15:09 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Re: Argentinian newspaper news say yes
Message:
silvia,

Either you're link is inncorect or the cia read what i've said and asked the newspaper to remove the content of the page.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:31:16 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: Argentinian newspaper news say yes
Message:
SORRY

I'm just reading for 5 minutes: Cannot correct the link. My translations sucks since I use too two minutes, but basically it says the US fighter plane shut it down.

Take care. Love,

silvia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:07:18 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: question
Message:
Could be. Can you imagine how the military pilot is feeling now if that was the case ?

My brother-in-law left the Royal Navy a couple of months before the Gulf War. A guy he was friendly with in the service was still in when the shit hit the fan.

This guy rocketed a boatload of Iraqis from his helicopter under highly dangerous circumstances & got mentioned.
My BiL said that the guy's head was fucked up as a result.

Imagine if it was your own people.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:35:40 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: question
Message:
Hi Pat and Salam, can't sleep...

I saw no coverage on that plane for hours, the media only mentioned it, with no detail.

Tonight there were witnesses. So what? Like the US Gov. never lies or covers up things? Geeze.

We may never know. But that's my thinking. Supposedly it was heading toward Camp David, the summit place. Maybe to the white house. Eye witnesses aren't so reliable, especially when you're watching a big jet crashing nose down into a field. One woman said she saw it crash nose down, everything was in pieces with a huge crater, but she didn't look at any bodies? How could she get that close and not see bodies, which were (excuse me) in pieces, and wouldn't it be burning?

There were cell phone calls from all planes, but I don't know about this one.

That's my take on it for now.
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 01:02:13 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, Love and Support to you
Message:
Cynthia,

Didn't have your e-mail and saw your story below about what recently happened to you. My love and support to you. I hope you get some sleep. You've had a double whammy dealing with shocking personal events and then the events of today.

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 22:44:26 (EDT)
From: bill burke
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Mixing religion an politics is always a mistake
Message:
Mixing religion and politics is aways a mistake.
Dreadful to see the disaster.
So many families destroyed today.
220 very large floors of Key financial business wiped out. 47 floors in another building. And however many in the other tower that went. Not to mention damage to nearby
financial buildings.
Initially, other countries will support the dollar. But the bubble has been pierced. So many millions of people in other countries who depend on our fiat economy will find thier lives disrupted.
And they cannot afford it.
The nutshell rock bottom analysis of this is: Mixing religion and politics is to be avoided by humans. It only causes problems. Whoever has the opinion that, a country that bases it's politics on a religion has a 'right to exist', needs to rethink that.
Excluding and demonizing your neighbor makes him your enemy.
THAT is what needs to be killed, not your neighbor.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:01:22 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: bill burke
Subject: ::U.S. Factions Testing Waters::
Message:
It looks like certain U.S. interests are testing the waters
wrt starting something retaliatory with Afghanistan.
Probably air strikes, sanctioned by the President or
Congress. These are ideas I heard expressed by at least
one 'pundit' on a national cable TV channel (not sure
which one).
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:16:46 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: ::Cruise Missile Strikes Imminent for Bin Laden::
Message:
It looks like certain U.S. interests are testing the waters
wrt starting something retaliatory with Afghanistan.
Probably air strikes, sanctioned by the President or
Congress. These are ideas I heard expressed by at least
one 'pundit' on a national cable TV channel (not sure
which one).


---

Cruise missile strikes imminent for bin
Laden

Cruise missile strikes on Osama bin Laden's bases in
Afghanistan looked increasingly likely Tuesday as
President George Bush and America's National Security
Council debated how to respond to the attacks.

United States warships in the Gulf would be immediately
capable of launching attacks similar to those that followed
the 1998 bombing of the US embassies in Nairobi and Dar
es Salaam in which 233 people died.

But they appeared to do only minimal damage to the
determined and well organised Al-Qaeda terrorist
organisation set up by bin Laden, leaving even the
overwhelming military might of America apparently
impotent.

Mr Bush promised that the US would 'hunt down and
punish those responsible for these cowardly acts'. But
British security sources said the attack had bin Laden's
fingerprints all over it.

The Saudi-born bin Laden, known simply as 'UBL' to
Western counter-terrorism agencies, who use a different
spelling of his first name, is the most prominent by far of a
new breed of terrorist who do not play by the old rules.
The Palestinian terrorists who hijacked a series of aircraft
across the world and the IRA bombers who destroyed
Bishopsgate shared one common purpose, a desire to
draw attention to their cause.

The results of their terrorist attacks had to grab the
headlines, and the television coverage. For that to
happen they had to be spectacular and, if necessary,
lives had to be lost.

But there were clear limits on the number of people who
could be killed. If they inflicted true carnage, they would
lose the sympathy for their cause that the attacks were in
part designed to build up.

Bin Laden has, almost singlehandedly, changed the rules
with his blatant disregard for public opinion and
willingness to inflict indiscriminate killing that may even
extend to weapons of mass destruction. His attacks were
more a form of asymmetrical warfare than terrorism.

During his previous attack on the World Trade Centre, in
1993, his men tried to bring one of the two towers down on
the other while simultaneously releasing a cloud of
arsenic gas, killing everyone in the surrounding area.

The fact that they failed should not have stopped an
immediate and complete rethink of the conventional
wisdom on how to deal with terrorists. America, however,
was slow to recognise the need for new thinking.

It was only in May this year, amid an increased threat to
US interests at home and abroad, that under orders from
President Bush the American intelligence agencies
embarked on a complete review of their counter-terrorism
policy.

Under the current system, the FBI has primary
responsibility for counter-terrorism but there are at least
50 agencies controlling different anti-terrorist units
across America, making co-ordination virtually
impossible.

Many have little or no knowledge of the very real threat to
America posed by bin Laden and although it is in the
frontline of that threat, the US is struggling to match the
capabilities of the European agencies.

The review is expected to call for a much more
centralised system, with extra roles in domestic security
for the Central Intelligence Agency and about pounds 6
billion spent on improving protection against terrorism
threats to the US homeland over the next decade.

MI5's counter-terrorism experts offered assistance
Tuesday in tracking down who was responsible but British
security experts said the attacks had all the hallmarks of
'a UBL attack'.

In the long term, the review of US counter-terrorism will
help to prevent the large scale security failures that
allowed so many civil aircraft to the hijacked
simultaneously.

But if bin Laden was responsible, America will find it
difficult to bring him to justice. Its diplomatic options are
limited by the fact that it does not recognise the Taliban
regime in Kabul which protects him.

It has nevertheless been attempting for some time to
persuade the Taliban to extradite him to America, most
recently two weeks ago, but without success.

The FBI has flooded the border areas of Pakistan and
Afghanistan with matchbooks carrying bin Laden's
photograph and a promise of a pounds 3 million reward for
information leading to his capture.

But the extent of Tuesday's attacks, easily constituting an
act of war, and recent reports that the Taliban leader
Mohammed Omar has appointed bin Laden as the head
of his armed forces may well lead to a far more radical US
response.

It is unlikely to be opposed by Russia, which led the
attacks on the Taliban over the appointment of bin Laden,
and is extremely concerned over the effect the Kabul
regime may have on the Islamic central Asian republics.

In a letter of condolence to President Bush, Russia's
President Vladimir Putin said: 'There is no doubt such an
inhuman act must not go unpunished.'

If America does decide that bin Laden was responsible,
the Taliban could well face a stark choice between
handing him over very quickly and a barrage of cruise
missiles aimed not just at his bases but at their own.

The Telegraph, London
[ Cruise Missile Strikes Imminent for Bin Laden ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:24:14 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: ::Cruise Missile Strikes Imminent..
Message:
excerpt

[from above post]

If America does decide that bin Laden was responsible,
the Taliban could well face a stark choice between
handing him over very quickly and a barrage of cruise
missiles aimed not just at his bases but at their own.

The Telegraph, London

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:54:29 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: that fills out missing pices
Message:
i am geting a much bigger view by reading everybody's postings from the rest of the worlf than theya re giving us on american national news.

keep it coming. the picture is filling out much better.

the gem show is gonna be flooded with afghani lapis lazuli like it was during the soviet bombings. the hillsides blow up and expose the deposits in the montaisides. but its unstable from the reverberations of the explosions, and it falls apart when you try to polish it.

not a great way to mine lapis. give it a year to show up.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:53:39 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: bill burke
Subject: in either direction! either bailiwick.
Message:
you have two societies that see the problem from the opposite ends of the spectrum here. the ones who did this view us and our government as utterly satanistic. to them, we are ego driven, materialistic, self gratifying, depraved, soaked in whoring sexuality and unspeakable arrogance.
in their understanding, we are polluting the world with our values and ways, not just by cultural spread, but by military force, economic leverage, global conceit of control of governments, overtly and covertly, and by exploitation of the world's people to serve our ends.

there is an old tale that God never wanted man to have a government, but man wanted one and asked to have one, so it was allowed.
the islamist extremists view government as the only possible outcome of islam, or walking in the footsteps prescribed by God/Allah, unto every facet of life, personal and state.
to them, what we have is disingenuous, a sly and sleazy way to get out of having to account to the Supreme Being at every turn, under the guise of separation of church and state. they can conceive of no such thing as compromise. For them, the way to lead one's life is not open to personal accomodation and customized leniencies to ones comfort. they see it as God's command and no human able to defy it or flout it. their path says so.

we look evil and conniving when seen against this strict belief about life. i can't say i disagree with them sometimes, when i stare at the manipulation and spin we witness every day, trying to deflect our individual intelligence from spotting the craft that goes into how our leaders present their decisions, their acts, their policies, their campaigns--and it spreads to corporate leaders too, and individuals. they lie so facilely, so smoothly, so barefacedly--to themselves first, and then to us!.

forgive me my sympathy for the unabombers and timothy mcveigh's and osama bin ladin's of this planet. i understand what can bring them to their culmination, all too well.

i know how they can get to that point, and feel there is no other way.

how do you stop the machine? how do you halt the beast in its advance? how do you make it listen to you?
its not personal. not usually. its always for something greater, vaster. i dont think these figures want personal infamy or historical biography footnotes. they want to make the monstrosity stop forever.

has there ever been a time in planet history when the actual planet was looking its own death in the face? i dont think so. its humans who made the business and government decisions that brought this to be. profit. money. power. personal comfort. selfishness. more money than any one human could possibly need or use. staggering hoarding of the planets resources and despoiling of it, while 94 percent of the rest of the human race scrapes in lack.
it wasnt supposed to be this way. the great are supposed to help the lesser. not exploit them, lie to them, keep things away from them.
we all know its not right. when its done to us, we seethe. but from the schoolyard, I bet we have alll experienced the feeling of doing it to another and getting away with it and gloating. its in our human nature from very young.

its obnoxious--to do to each other, and the more so before God. the rejoinder, the operating concept becomes,not 'is it wrong to do this?', but'yeah?? who's gonna stop me?'
this whole scenario from today is headed into a hopeless spiral of blow and counterblow. the righteous corporate governmental selfish interests, hellbent of not letting anybody take away their profit or power as they now have it, destined to be the sworn target of a god-committed fanatical force, unafraid to die, heaven bent on breaking that hold over all people, so that God may rule as they believe Him to Command it should be.
its irresolvable in its present form.

today was the anniversary of the historic camp david accords, that jimmy carter struck between isreal and egypt back in the mid 70's. that accord was seen by these fanatics as the ultimate Deal With the Devil. jews and arabs shalking hands. the ultimate sellout., the final polluting, co-opting, swindling of humanity by the most Evil Crafter of Deals.
coincidentally, the world trade center opened for business around the same time. i finally figured out why it has been their target, today. it represents to them all that they hate about that accord and about America's conceit in the world now.
interesting how the date is 911.

in listening to dubya make his appearance before the cameras, I'm sorry, but i was seething, and not at the terrorists. i was seething at that pinched face on the screen. i was talking back to him before me, sneering at his very presidency and all that he is using it to do to this time in planetary history.
he wont learn. he wont change.

did anyone else catch the blatant impossibility that concluded his promises to the world?

the united states mean to hunt down and wipe out anyone who acts against america. thats a regime of fear. and here he was, his narrow little pinheaded face. glibly promising to guard 'freedom'.

excuse me.
the two are antithetically unable to exist in the same place togther.

you can't have freedom where there is fear. you can't have fear where there is freedom.
it's one or the other. so guess what he really means?

rule the world by fear, so he and his cronies can have THEIR freedom, their way, their plans, their wants.

His heicopter flew over my house, two months back. directly overhead.
i didnt 'know', at the time, that he was in it. i learned it later that night, from the news. but i was transfixed, as my eyes tracked it over my head, and never have i experienced such monstrous evil, such ugly and merciless, grotesque presence of hideous power. i felt it. i saw with my own eyes the entity that can destroy the world if he wants to. and he went directly over my small house, my spot on this vast planet.

the freedom he speaks of preserving, is not for you and me. its for him. and all who exult in his being in the office he is, for them.

having taken seriously my vows to try to live by the Word of God when i was a sincere member of this cult, I saw the world with the eyes of the True Believer for many years. I saw the iniquity. I saw the things these terrorists see about America. So i can't hate them. I know. As far as their belief in God and their cause, i can't see them in the inhuman characterization that the media is now going to try to reduce them to, to make retaliation easy and mindless and simple enough to feed the public. they will. you watch. use your critical thinking, your discernment, your lessons in propaganda identification.

they did it during the gulf war. built up the public emotion. proed around to find the hotbuttons, the kneejerk reactions, the points everybody agreed on, and then they milked it ad nauseum. I got caught up in it for a while. went out an bought a pair of desert cami's in solidarity with 'our troops in kuwait'.

know what? i never put them on. something in me rebelled and i turned the sound off the tv and sat myself in lotus position and went into the sdeepest prayer and unshakeble meditation i ever put myself into, pulling from my soul for the war to end. i was fed up to the eyeballs with scud missiles and CNN reports and army video footage. I knew in the core of me that God did not want the killing of anyone. not saddam, not america, not anyone.
i dont kno whow long i sat like that, but when i felt to 'come back' and open my eyes, there was a change on the news. a cease fire had occurred. the idiocy was over. it stopped.

weeks later a man i knew who was a CIA operative called me to confess that he had made it all the way to saddam's side and gotten a gun in his ribs, only to relize he couldnt pull the trigger. when i asked why, he mumbled something about 'i felt your disaproval and others--and i knew it wasnt the answer., i couldnt do it'.

have any of you seen Bin Laden's face? have you seen the serenity in it? he glows with an inner choice. he reached this state as a young man in college. same age we were when we came to maharaji. he said he first experienced this uneartly peace when he killed is first americans. how can you fight that? the peace that passeth understanding. nothing is going to reach him. he has no fear. he's in conversion altered state. in his own soul, he's free.

i hate to say it, but he sees too clearly. no amount of american retaliation is gonna change that. it will only add more proof to their belief.

maybe its true. we are what they see us as.
but how do i tell them i know it? he doesnt know i understand. i dont practice islam. i was born in america. i have to live here. i'm surrounded by it. i know my governemt lies. to itself, to me, to all. i know what my nation does to the rest of the world. but i dont want it bombed into a radioactive crater.

i don't want this planet destroyed. i want god to govern this world. i want the Great Satan deposed. I do. But i don't think bombings will do it. I don't think counterbombings will do it either. How do you get the evil out of its seats of power? It lives latent in anyone. Little kids try lying from a very young age. they experience selfishness, biting, defying, stealing, sneaking, destructiveness. its innate in the animal that we are.

if Bin Laden was behind this today, he succeeded in making the Beast freeze in its tracks for a day, or so.
it was nice to have quiet skies overhead today. they shut down LAX and the local airorts. so for once, we didnt have planes drowning out our everyday attempts to speak to one another outdoors. that was nice. that much was peace. so that much touched us where we lived.

new yorkers are pouring out of the woodwork, coming to help.
not to resurrect the expensive, moneyaking, shiny, tall buildings. they're coming to help the humans, the ordinary poeple in agony and shock who need them to come.

that's god, right there.

and what boils me, is that the moneygrabbers are going to craftily take this, and use it, to weave into their spin speeches, that America will not be Brought Down. they will appropriate it to their own agenda, which is not the ordinary guys intent at all.

so the towers are gone. SFW. if no one had been in them, SFW?!
buildings dont feel. they dont live. big deal.

its the people. the humans. the mess. the pollution. the pain. the shock. the loss.

i cant imagine what it must have been like to be in that plane when it hit. or in the tower when it came in. or t be someone who jumped from 92 stories up, deciding between death by slow agony in fire, against their life, or voluntary and instant death by a leap in free fall, into pavement impact 92 stories below. the news said they had footage of such moments. they refuse to ever let it run on the air.

I have stared over the edge of the empire state building and gazed down to the streets below. people are ants. i remember it. if you jump free out into space, all the way down, you're breathing, you're seeing, feeling, knowing, taking it in--you're still alive-- until you arent.

I can see the choice. I can see reaching it.
freedom. to the last instant. going by your last act, your own choice, in your control. anything but cowering powerlessly and taking the agony, submitting to the unbearable and unfaceable.

the rhetoric will saturate the air now. watch for it. the media and the speakers will posture and hold forth and feel their way around the general reaction until they find the 'zone', the attitude that people rise to, and they'll play it for all its worth. take notes. record what you spot. evil doesnt let go happily. it has too much to lose, too much invested. it wants so determinedly to get back to business as usual.

and the globe suffers. the planet continues to degrade. the animals cant stop whats happening. the greedy exercise their ability to strike fear into the lives of the innocent. and the true beleivers, the fanatics, with utter unearthly serenity not born of this world, will go on reaching the moment of supreme conviction, and act without any fear
to place themselves in its way, uncaring for the things of the world, unshakeable in their sureness that God wants it this way. Are they insane? are they saints? are they martyrs? are they terrorists? are they just humans who want what any human wants?

neither side is going to stop.
whose cause is the right one?
who is free, here? who experiences the freedom that is getting spoken about, so repeatedly?

these guys would be fanatical killers even if there were no america to hate and focus on. they are trying to reach for the purest rule by god's lawbook that they can conceive of, but god isnt here to correct their concepts of it.
and america thinks its the guardian of freedom, but life in america isnt real free, is it?
if there is freedom anywhere, its in living by spirit. not codified law, mans or 'god's.

do i want anarchy? no. nor war. nor mess. nor the rape of the earth.

but pay attention to the rhetoric. watch them try to manipulate you for their own purposes.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:38:44 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: in either direction! either bailiwick.
Message:
Janet,
That was very well put, very well put indeed.

Yesterday, I asked all those people who died, to let me know, in some way, what is this purpose of this life. Just what the hell is it, now that I don't have knowledge or M? The most unbelievable thing happened. LOVE. Nothing but nothing but nothing but love. All day long. Everywhere. Just love. Overpowering, all pervasive,
love. Love overides all the evil. Evil palled in the face of love. It was amazing. A day of horror that was drenched in love. And I knew, all those who were lost in this devestation were in such a place of love. I can only hope that somehow, that love can envelope those left here, in this life, without their mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters.

Go there again, Janet, and bring some peace back. We all should. At least the years in the cult have taught us all one thing, we know that there is more than the status quo to this existence. And there are more things in earth and heaven than meets the eye ( or however that quote goes).

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:04:28 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Hey Janet
Message:
That was really riveting. Some of what you say , to be honest, I found a bit whacky but even so it really was thoughtful and insightful.

You went a bit deeper and explored things from both sides. For instance,I'm sure many people in the west would have been utterly appalled at the pictures from the Arab quarters of Jerusalem where even small kids were waving flags and rejoicing at the US tragedy.

Something like that is appalling isn't it? Almost Beyond comprehension even. So why would people rejoice at such an act? Even more , why would people commit such an act??? There's no way I can defend so much harm caused to innocent victims but you laid it out so well and made the incomprehensible, comprehensible.

The truth is the countries we live in (USA ,UK and others) also inflict huge suffering on innocent men, women and children. But we legalise it, sanitise it, excuse it.But a little baby burned to ashes is a little baby burned to ashes whether he/she is western or not.

You've pointed out what to me always appeared obvious. It isn't and never was good v bad , in strict black and white terms. This world is in deep conflict and is seriously fucked up.

At a time like this it may not be palatable for US or British people to accept that they too cause totally unneccesary , totally obscene suffering on innocent victims all over the world .The actions of our military and Governments are divorced from our 'civilised ' lifestyle.The trouble is, more and more it's becoming 'wake up ' time
.You can't ,say, bomb Iraq day after day for a decade and never expect to be attacked yourself. You cannot kill stone throwing children by the hundred and never expect to be attacked yourself. Sooner or later the people WITHOUT the huge amounts of money,WITHOUT huge military arsenals, WITHOUT large well trained armies will (in the name of all their own innocent men, women and children victims) strike back in any way they can. David will smite Goliath whatever way he can.

For us everyday, powerless human beings ....all we can do is think/feel what a tragedy it is for the innocent pawn victims.

I agree with your depiction of Bush. And Blair is just his loyal little lap dog. I agree that now they will use every means at their disposal to defend 'freedom' with fear.Bush will ensure his oil company/ military complex buddies are always protected (bunkered down as he was yesterday)just as he was conveniently protected from the Vitnam conflict (Us national guard duty?). It's for ordinary American , British boys to suffer and die in a war ....not the likes of Bush,Blair etc. Troops, civilians ...whatever. Just so much 'collateral damage' as far as those in power are concerned.

Whether Gore in reality would have been better is debatable but Bush/Cheney and a bunch of gung ho red neck asshole generals is not the ideal combination if you want o avoid a huge global catastrophic war.

One American politician said on tv last night ' it doesn't matter if we don't find out who done it. We've got to kill thousands in return'

Didn't Vitnam start with a small military presence until the Pentagon & Arms manufacturers saw it as a viable opportunity?

I wonder if there are any cool headed statesmen/women around right now? Probably not. So let the fireworks begin.Burn baby burn.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:27:21 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Hey Dermot
Message:
I've had some sleep and relaxation, plus a break from the incessant replays of the events of yesterday.

I've had some time to think this through--so far, anyway.

What those terrorists did was heinous and unforgivable. Isn't it likely that there were daycare centers in those buildings, besides all of the innocent workers? I'm not talking about the women and men who have high seats in their corporations, but the middleclass and working class who, essentially have no power in the country nor the world.

Is very important not to blame a race of people for the acts of a few.

Violence begets violence. What we're experiencing by all those shouts for retaliation is testostorone poisoning, by those rich white men those in control of government and corporations. To retaliate (and yesterday when I went out to do some errands, a lot of people were talking about nuking the middle east). Unsane!

I don't want to paint a broad brush as a feminist and appear as a manhater, because I am not. I'm married to a man. I love men. Many of my best friends are men. Yet the world is controlled by men. Religions are controlled by men. Mostly white men. It's time to give women a crack a the job.

When I saw this happening live on tv, my first thought was, shit, George Dubya is the fucking president. He's an oil man (well, sorta).

I read a book quite a while ago by Jim Hightower, a liberal humorist. He had a section in his book about global or multinational corporations. I was quite surprised to learn that the founders of America who wrote the constitution did not want to allow people to be able to form corporations. They felt it was against human interests, and individuals would loss freedom if corporations were formed. Eventually Delaware, the registrar for corporations just about everywhere, changed it's constitution to allow corporations to have 'charters' We all know how that has evolved.

There are no countries anymore, IMO, only large corporations on the US welfare dole. Look up Congressman Bernie Sanders's website. He shouts and screams that Americans have not health care system, but a large corporate welfare system. It saddens me when people criticize poor people who need the assistance of the state to feed their children, right here in the good 'ole USofA, while corporations pay little or no taxes because they no longer have alligiance (sp?) to the US and don't give a shit about anything but their next bonus or golden parachute when a major corporate takeover happens.

Violence never solves anything. Humans are very stupid in this regard.

There are too many people for Mother Earth to sustain. I believe in reproductive freedom, but with over 6 billion people on the planet, and the most voracious consumers are in the western world, not third world countries. It's time for people to decide just how urgent the need to reproduce is versus the capability of the earth to sustain such great numbers. I dare say my husband and I took more time and consideration and thought and discussion to not have children than the majority of people who think this Mother Earth can sustain and endless number of new inhabitants.

I find my joy in children through the children of my friends and sisters who all have kids.

Violence begets violence. It must stop. But how?

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:43:50 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Hey Dermot
Message:
What we're experiencing by all those shouts for retaliation is testostorone poisoning, by those rich white men those in control of government and corporations.

---

That's a slur.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:20:00 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Hey Janet
Message:
That was really riveting. Some of what you say , to be honest, I found a bit whacky but even so it really was thoughtful and insightful.

You went a bit deeper and explored things from both sides. For instance,I'm sure many people in the west would have been utterly appalled at the pictures from the Arab quarters of Jerusalem where even small kids were waving flags and rejoicing at the US tragedy.

Something like that is appalling isn't it? Almost Beyond comprehension even. So why would people rejoice at such an act? Even more , why would people commit such an act??? There's no way I can defend so much harm caused to innocent victims but you laid it out so well and made the incomprehensible, comprehensible.

The truth is the countries we live in (USA ,UK and others) also inflict huge suffering on innocent men, women and children. But we legalise it, sanitise it, excuse it.But a little baby burned to ashes is a little baby burned to ashes whether he/she is western or not.

You've pointed out what to me always appeared obvious. It isn't and never was good v bad , in strict black and white terms. This world is in deep conflict and is seriously fucked up.

At a time like this it may not be palatable for US or British people to accept that they too cause totally unneccesary , totally obscene suffering on innocent victims all over the world .The actions of our military and Governments are divorced from our 'civilised ' lifestyle.The trouble is, more and more it's becoming 'wake up ' time
.You can't ,say, bomb Iraq day after day for a decade and never expect to be attacked yourself. You cannot kill stone throwing children by the hundred and never expect to be attacked yourself. Sooner or later the people WITHOUT the huge amounts of money,WITHOUT huge military arsenals, WITHOUT large well trained armies will (in the name of all their own innocent men, women and children victims) strike back in any way they can. David will smite Goliath whatever way he can.

For us everyday, powerless human beings ....all we can do is think/feel what a tragedy it is for the innocent pawn victims.

I agree with your depiction of Bush. And Blair is just his loyal little lap dog. I agree that now they will use every means at their disposal to defend 'freedom' with fear.Bush will ensure his oil company/ military complex buddies are always protected (bunkered down as he was yesterday)just as he was conveniently protected from the Vitnam conflict (Us national guard duty?). It's for ordinary American , British boys to suffer and die in a war ....not the likes of Bush,Blair etc. Troops, civilians ...whatever. Just so much 'collateral damage' as far as those in power are concerned.

Whether Gore in reality would have been better is debatable but Bush/Cheney and a bunch of gung ho red neck asshole generals is not the ideal combination if you want o avoid a huge global catastrophic war.

One American politician said on tv last night ' it doesn't matter if we don't find out who done it. We've got to kill thousands in return'

Didn't Vitnam start with a small military presence until the Pentagon & Arms manufacturers saw it as a viable opportunity?

I wonder if there are any cool headed statesmen/women around right now? Probably not. So let the fireworks begin.Burn baby burn.


---

you're welcome..

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:47:36 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: in either direction! either bailiwick.
Message:
i couldn't get thru all this, sorry, but from what you wrote in the
beginning, i agree..now this is the first time in america's history
that they experience something that is happening worldwide and often
it was the u.s. who were the attackers in the name of their values.
question: where were they or rather where are they in tschechenia
were the russian army destroys a whole nation..no u.s. or israeli
interests disturbed..okay go ahead..i know that all these western
and eastern politicians now feel utterly concerned and stand side by
side with their u.s. allies...bla bla, i know a lotta people i know
just feel like the u.s. have finally gotten their desert, as you sow
so you shall reap..sorry that is the karmic law...so u.s. of a.:
welcome to the club, you have at last arrived in the real world
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:56:42 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Is this what they call Kali-Yuga?
Message:
I've been watching TV all evening, and I'm still having a hard time to look at this war as something real !!!!

We're living in a crazy world. Is this Kali-Yuga ?

Master after master, according to the Sant mat gurus, they've been trying to save humanity from that sort of crazyness .... and failed miserably.

What a shame.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 20:33:15 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Is this what they call Kali-Yuga?
Message:
No kidding, JM. Why are the premies still going to see the Lard? He promised world peace. DAH. Thirty years later, here we are--no world peace. Now, if only those terrorists had ...
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:25:09 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Explosions have rocked Kabul
Message:
Explosions have rocked Kabul in Afghanistan this evening although the USA denies that it has struck there or that the explosions are anything to do with their armed forces.

I hope America does not retaliate without careful consideration otherwise things will only escalate. Surely now is the time to forget our differences and try to reach some agreement and compromise. Agreement and compromise in the Middle East between the Israelis and Palestinians, agreement and compromise between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. These polarizations are medieval and destructive. We've seen decades of terrorism here with the Northern Ireland troubles and nothing has ever been gained by the countless deaths of innocent people. It has only shown that dividing people into opposing groups who hate each other is utterly useless to humanity. Somehow the divisions have to be overcome and the other side understood.

There will always be terrorists and fundamentalist 'religious' fanatics but I hope these few don't bring the many to war.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 03:08:30 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: Explosions have rocked Kabul
Message:
David:

Explosions have rocked Kabul in Afghanistan this evening although the USA denies that it has struck there or that the explosions are anything to do with their armed forces.

As someone in the blood bank I went to this evening put it, they're trying to get rid of an unwanted asset. I fail to see, however, how an act of war of this magnitude [referring to the WTC and the Pentagon] could lead to compromise of any kind. If they can do this, they can do much worse, and therefore can't be tolerated in any form. Precisely who is to blame for this particular act is almost beside the point. Indeed, it may be something of a disadvantage to know for certain who committed the act, because knowing this would alow other terrorist groups to rest easy. Sorry, but the trial paradigm is no longer appropriate.

Had to watch that little boy this evening make his adolescent 'you'll never get away with this... we'll track you down' little speech. God, if we only had a parliamentary system. But no Dave, peace is out of the question just as it was out of the question at the shelling of Fort Sumpter and the bombing of Pearl Harbor. The only difference here is that there wasn't an obvious return address. Gawd I'm worried about that little boy lost. What have we done, electing this twerp? He's way out of his league. Bin Laden should have been in his grave eight hours ago. We're at war, and the President of the United States doesn't know it yet.

Eventually we may overcome the differences, but that's not the order of the day today. Religious zealots don't make their decisions in a vaccuum. There's a very specific religious belief at work here, and therefore a very specific way to undermine it. And you know killing the leader will lead to a succession battle, with near certainty, inner divisions, etc. Such delays could save lives. Would almost certainly save lives. That's the accounting that matters. These people only think they're saints. Adult real people know that's a dangerous delusion. Undermine the belief set, raise the cost of aiding and abetting the perpetrators, be relentless and if necessary ruthless.

I recall a joint US/British operation at the end of WWII to deal with Nazi war criminals without adding to the expense of the Nuremburg trials. A special unit composed of former British and US agents kidnapped these former Nazis, who had been often living openly and believing themselves invulnerable. They were then interrogated, confronted with their accusers, and after a confession and apology were executed, driven to the Russian sector in an old Russian sedan specially built for the purpose, and dumped. Happened over and over until the cocksuckers were all dead. I saw the interviews with one of the British agents who was matter of fact about the whole thing, and proud of the role he and others had played in meting out justice to those who thought they had circumvented it.

I worry about all this talk of 'finding and prosecuting those who are responsible' as though this is some sort of Tom Sawyer world. Just not possible any longer. Wrong paradigm.

The objective at this point is to keep a dirty business as clean as possible. That's the best we could hope for, and hope the Taliban don't force us to use a sledge hammer to kill a fly.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:49:36 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You cannot fight the causes
Message:
How do you fight an enemy who aren't afraid to die and believe it's an honour to die for their religion? If they take out Bin Laden and his followers, the problem won't go away.

America is seen as the Great Satan by many in the Muslim world. There are reasons for this. Those reasons fuel the passions of the suicide terrorists. America is seen as the enemy because of their support for Israel. That is clear and black and white. In recent months, many Palestinians have died at the wrong end of American weapons that have been supplied to the Israelis.

This problem won't go away with a strike on Bin Laden. The problem can be defused somewhat by America having a less military role in the Israel/Palestine conflict. I think George Bush has made the problem far worse than it was. Bill Clinton did at least try to broker deals between Palestinians and Israelis.

George Bush is the worst possible USA president to deal with this conflict. He is into isolationism. America first and fuck the rest. Well maybe, just maybe, that isolationism will cause him to drop the Isreal hot potato. I can only hope. If he wages war against the Arab world then things will only get worse and terrorist attacks increase.

It's amazing that a few despots with knives who are prepared to die, have been able to cause the worst terrorist atrocity in history. America at least knows now that its airline security was wanting. I think armed guards on all airlines will be a certainty in the future. I believe that in domestic USA flights, there was no Xray check of baggage or clothing for concealed weapons. I think that will change now.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:51:13 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: You cannot fight the causes
Message:
How do you fight an enemy who aren't afraid to die and believe it's an honour to die for their religion? If they take out Bin Laden and his followers, the problem won't go away.

No one thinks it will. That's not the calculus that's at work. Rather, it's quite simple. Anyone willing to die can exercise a veto. But it is also true that to simply accept that as a fait accompli, and do nothing to resist, is to end the notion of 'rights' completely. Any difficult journey begins with a first step, and the only real mistake is not to take that step. And yes Dave, killing the perpetrators will, and must, have a number of salutory affects. Understand the nature of the belief system that creates individuals who value their own and others lives less that their veto power, and deliberately undermine that system of believe. In this case it's the Islamic notion of predestination, very different from the Calvinist notion, that involves the consequences in *this world* and therefor leads to a warrior culture.

America is seen as the Great Satan by many in the Muslim world. There are reasons for this. Those reasons fuel the passions of the suicide terrorists.

The fact that you call these 'reasons' suggests to me that your judgement is flawed. That is not the appropriate term, but there will always be people who see 'reasons' for their sociopathological acts. This is no reason to lie down. I'm sure that someone would see Bin Laden's death as a 'reason' for retaliation. To me this is a good reason (to use the term properly) to make his death an anonymous event, ascribable to no one in particular, and possibly to his allies or friends. A public trial of the perps would be a disaster. Think this through please.

America is seen as the enemy because of their support for Israel. That is clear and black and white. In recent months, many Palestinians have died at the wrong end of American weapons that have been supplied to the Israelis.

I am fully in favor of America's support for Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, and the only nation actively involved in examining its own motives and policies in the area. Within Israel I support those who seek a peaceful settlement of some kind, with the basket case that is Palestine. But this is now completely beside the point. It is relevant only at the margins.

This problem won't go away with a strike on Bin Laden.

The problem will not go away, period. These... sons of bitches, have stolen our... *your*... freedom, and we will never fully recover it. Never. Such is the nature of first order evil. It leaves you with no 'good' alternatives.

The problem can be defused somewhat by America having a less military role in the Israel/Palestine conflict. I think George Bush has made the problem far worse than it was. Bill Clinton did at least try to broker deals between Palestinians and Israelis.

The problem cannot be defused at all. It is way beyond that. There is no such thing as 'defusing this crisis' by knuckling under to the threats and actions of terrorists. As someone so eloquently put it yesterday... 'now, we fight.' If you don't like this conclusion please stand to the rear. Fear and trembling should be the state of every terrorist organization in the world, and none should ever be relieved of that burden, ever.

George Bush is the worst possible USA president to deal with this conflict. He is into isolationism. America first and fuck the rest. Well maybe, just maybe, that isolationism will cause him to drop the Isreal hot potato. I can only hope. If he wages war against the Arab world then things will only get worse and terrorist attacks increase.

I wish we had a parliamentary system. There are many people better suited to this presidency than George Bush. Indeed, his wife is probably better suited. But,

Spontaneous mass demonstrations in favor of the United States in a number of countries this morning, including Germany. We are at war Dave. Take a moment and think this through. We now have no alternative except to act with greatest dispatch. I am sure we will pay the 'wages of sin.' That is not a good reason to be idle, but rather to ponder the nature of the human condition under these circumstances and accept them. We fight. We raise the cost of terrorism for everyone to the sky. There is no alternative. There may be other simultaneous policies, but even deliberation is a luxury we may not be able to afford.

It's amazing that a few despots with knives who are prepared to die, have been able to cause the worst terrorist atrocity in history.

Unfortunately not the worst conceivable one though.

America at least knows now that its airline security was wanting. I think armed guards on all airlines will be a certainty in the future. I believe that in domestic USA flights, there was no Xray check of baggage or clothing for concealed weapons. I think that will change now.

We agree. But that isn't the only thing that's changed. This is a new and very different world. Not necessarily a worse one, but certainly no better. Better will be a long time coming.

I am thinking of Lincoln in 1861 after the rebels fired on Fort Sumpter, being stalked by a disease whose namesake (Marfans) had yet to be born and with only 4 years to live one way or another. He must have known, however dimly and poorly, and from the acceptance of that dim 'recollection' drawn some strength. There are no winners. But the childish hopes of the perpetrators for a place in heaven must be destroyed.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:31:22 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dr Strangelove, here we come!(joke?) [nt]
Message:
zz
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:41:50 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: not (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 05:01:03 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: they check every flight here
Message:
they have the scanners in schools, courthouses, airports, its become routine tho annoying.
analysts have speculated that they circumvented the checkpoints by entering as ground crew or cleaning personnel. others wondered if they used items made of ceramic or plastic concealed in their shoe soles andd still passed exray check
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:21:27 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Is this what they call Kali-Yuga?
Message:
Bonjeur Jean-Michel:

A 'perfect master', son of a respected Satguru, who is totally uninspring and causes nothing but problems and unhappiness - yes the term 'Kali-Yuga' is as appropriate as it gets. We have unfortunately been through great trauma with this son-of-a-bitch guru. I pray that healing can continue for all those affected by Haharaji, including the families of those who followed him and ended up committing suicide, some of my friends being in that group. My schizophrenia that begun shortly after becoming a follower of Haharaji is still causing me grief. I must remind myself every day to be strong and that some day the hell of the late twentieth centry when Haharaji seemed to be the most promising spiritual teacher around will be over and a new yuga or new age will be here, an age of peace and justice.

All The Best

Steve

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 19:09:47 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Is this what they call Kali-Yuga?
Message:
This morning when I took a few shirts to the cleaners the Asian owner of the laundry who is/was a Buddist told me that the 'World was ending and Jesus is coming'.

This is not funny, it is tragically ironic at best

This is small example, but it illustrates how much todays horrific events have and will effect our lives from now on.

The world has changed, it will never be the same after today

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:39:24 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Is this what they call Kali-Yuga?
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

Yes, it is indeed a war. In this millenium, war is no longer declared, it is just implemented at random, by evil people filled with hate.

I've been listening to our Senators, including Hilary Clinton, giving the same old rhetoric, it sickens me.

I've been listening to the political pundits and they sicken me too.

In a world of the possibility of mass destruction, I am grateful to be religion-free. But I got very frightened today. I knew something like this would eventually happen. It was just a matter of time.

Truly unbelievable....

I send you warm thoughts,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 19:06:35 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Is this what they call Kali-Yuga?
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

Just want you to know I'm very concerned for you right now.

Lots of love,

Deborah

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:46:59 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I'm fine Deb...
Message:
I'm in a difficult place inside right now and this tragedy is beyond comprehension. I was thinking about how they will identify the bodies, but the news just said everything from the towers is in small pieces. My prayers, thoughts and condolences are with the families of those victims.

No one's mentioned anything about the plane that went down in Pennsylvania. I think the military may have shot it down. No one's talking. And in Afganistan, where the terrorist is hiding, bombs have gone off and the US hasn't said anything about that either.

It's a sad and difficult day for our whole planet.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:49:12 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I shan't be using this name again..
Message:
..in light of today's events it isn't funny anymore.

Condolences & love to America.

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:51:51 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: good idea dorrity-agreed
Message:
there was never anything wrong with your own born name in the first place!--was there?
you're worth reading under your own name, friend. write for the world.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:26:19 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Thoughful of you [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:38:33 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Thanks, PatD [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:45:43 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Love prayer tonight
Message:
Hey Pat C. + husbands (and anyone else from the Bay Area). We're having a 'love prayer' here at my place for any and everyone from 7:30-9pm. Call 389-6122 for directions. Love and peace.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:16:27 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Response to terrorist atack OT
Message:
There is an urgent need for blood donors. Blood donated anywhere in the US would help. Please contact your local Red Cross.
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