Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 07, 2001 To: Sep 13, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


News Flash -:- World Trade Center attacked(NT) -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:28:27 (EDT)
__ CNN -:- Lower Manhattan Being Evacuated -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:28:58 (EDT)
__ __ CNN -:- It Wasl Also Announced that -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:43:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: It Wasl Also Announced that -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:56:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ arlos -:- Unless it was done with trhe knowledge -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:24:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- They're all idiots... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:01:00 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Comic relief? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:23:31 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Comic relief? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:31:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Comic relief? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:52:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Comic relief? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:57:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Comic relief? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:00:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- homo sapiens sapiens internettus [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:05:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Nothing is Funny Today...Salam... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:50:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Re: Nothing is Funny Today...Salam... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 23:15:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Salam... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:15:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Nothing is Funny Today...Salam... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:58:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- American Attacks -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:13:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- Re: American Attacks -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:43:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- More extreme things have happened before. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:19:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: American Attacks -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:42:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: American Attacks -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:52:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Cynthia, they didn't know because they -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:47:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::use of labels:: -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:09:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I don't feel so 'PC' today... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:22:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :: those pilots should be grounded :: -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 01:29:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- The Hijackers were piloting... -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 14:44:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Our inteligence people don't have people -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:35:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Our inteligence people don't have people -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:02:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Agreed; that circumvention is done by -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:24:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Our inteligence people don't have people -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:16:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- u r partly right & partly wrong, Jerry. -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:44:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: American Attacks -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:45:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: American Attacks -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:38:27 (EDT)
__ Salam -:- Re: World Trade Center attacked(NT) -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:11:06 (EDT)
__ Another News Flash. -:- Iraq bombed every day for months. -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:29:56 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Re: Iraq bombed every day for months. -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:01:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Iraq bombed every day for months. -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:10:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Iraq bombed every day for months. -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:57:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Sorry, Dermot -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:50:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::dude:: [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:09:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Sorry, Dermot....sorry Jerry -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 19:05:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- What about the children?? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:13:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: What about the children?? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:45:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: What about the children??n?? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:13:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :: age or gender demographics :: -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:07:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ggg -:- Re: What about the children?? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:45:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, ggg...It's not about me... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:32:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: What about the children?? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:44:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- An addendum to my post above... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:33:21 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: Iraq bombed every day for months. -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:45:11 (EDT)
__ __ Salam -:- Re: Iraq bombed -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:25:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Iraq bombed -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:38:27 (EDT)
__ Sir David -:- An act of war that will live in infamy -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:31:39 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Very melodramatic, Sir D -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:51:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Hello Sir! -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:07:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir David -:- United Airlines 175 still missing -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:48:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: United Airlines 175 still missing -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:59:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Interesting fact -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:59:39 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Re: World Trade Center attacked(NT) -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:31:40 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Now the Pentagon is on fire! -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:46:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- PLEASE POST NEWS (ot) -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:58:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ *** -:- September 11 -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:32:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CNN -:- September 11 is the ... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:55:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- The second tower just collapsed -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:30:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ *** -:- Camp David attacked (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:24:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Can anyone confirm: Camp David attacked [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:55:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ *** -:- Re: Camp David correction -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:05:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::thanks!:: [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:40:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yeah, the stupid reporters... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:16:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Where WAS the CIA?! -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:23:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::this could provoke martial law:: -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:50:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Chris, I just emailed you... [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:03:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::just got it, Cynthia - tnx:: [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 01:57:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- One of the towers collapsed! -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:20:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dirk -:- American Airlines Plan Hijacked -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:08:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :: weighing in :: -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:39:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Lengthy report -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:52:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- 8 planes total were hijacked -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:08:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- more from australia (!) -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:18:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- USA is AT WAR! INFO FOR THOSE WITHOUT COVERAGE!!! -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:42:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Breathe in breathe out -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:34:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: USA is AT WAR! -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:22:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chris Hafey -:- ::Re: USA is:: -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:49:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: ::USA is:: -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:07:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I cannot say anything -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:27:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Me too, Pat... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:45:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Me too, Pat... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:47:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: I cannot say anything -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:41:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: I cannot say anything -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:37:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks btdt and magiclara -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:46:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Have a drink...I am... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:56:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Have a drink...I am... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:05:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Have a drink...I am... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:25:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I've calmed down now... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:41:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::that's what Harry Tuttle says:: [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:18:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- and more from australia (!) -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:34:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Sending love -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:15:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ggg -:- Re: Sending love -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:49:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Disculta... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:25:19 (EDT)

Salam -:- IT AIN'T OVER YET -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:10:39 (EDT)
__ silvia -:- OVER -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:35:10 (EDT)

don p. -:- the paramhans advait mat book -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:13:58 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- Re: the paramhans advait mat book -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:01:18 (EDT)
__ __ don p. -:- Re: the paramhans advait mat book -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:15:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: the paramhans advait mat book -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:51:27 (EDT)
__ RichMandrake -:- Don...Look at the FACTS.. -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:33:07 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- ***Very sincere post*** -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:16:33 (EDT)

**** -:- Salam, how does that look -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 06:34:45 (EDT)
__ salam -:- no -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:44:02 (EDT)
__ __ [Blank] -:- and I forgot to say -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:23:58 (EDT)
__ **** -:- Re: Salam, how does that look -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:35:12 (EDT)

Susan -:- My Intro -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 19:32:44 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Hi Susan, big welcome to you :) -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:51:52 (EDT)
__ __ Suedoula (Susan) -:- Re: Hi Susan, big welcome to you :) -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 19:26:40 (EDT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Re: My Intro -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 02:06:34 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- Re: My Intro -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:16:36 (EDT)
__ __ Suedoula (Susan) -:- Re: My Intro -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:37:06 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- well,we all bozos in dis bull elephant dung.hohoho [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 02:26:05 (EDT)
__ silvia -:- Unity Church? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 01:07:00 (EDT)
__ __ Suedoula (Susan) -:- Re: Unity Church? -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:10:22 (EDT)
__ Carl -:- Welcome Susan! The Unitarian principles do appeal: -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:57:34 (EDT)
__ __ Suedoula (Susan) -:- Re: Welcome Susan! -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:43:33 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- I guess I'm a Unitarian agnostic -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:04:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- Re architecture / attitudes -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:54:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- Emerson -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:07:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Emerson -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:21:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- the New England Enlightenment -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:03:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I must be a Pagan... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:10:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- nice thoughts: Alice Walker [that poem] -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 02:19:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: I must be a Pagan... -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:22:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Pantheism='all the gods' -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 21:40:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Pantheism='all the gods' -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:21:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Pantheism='all the gods' -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 14:09:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Pantheism='all the gods' -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:26:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- So, you've been to SF? -:- Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:32:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: So, you've been to SF? -:- Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:17:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- a la St. Francis of Assisi [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 02:21:03 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: My Intro - many thanks -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 19:58:34 (EDT)
__ salam -:- hello Susan -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 19:35:23 (EDT)
__ __ Suedoula (Susan) -:- Re: hello Susan -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:00:42 (EDT)

Ulf -:- For all the holacaust deniers -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 18:43:59 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Nice one, Ulf -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:01:23 (EDT)


Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:28:27 (EDT)
From: News Flash
Email: None
To: All
Subject: World Trade Center attacked(NT)
Message:
aaaaaaa
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:28:58 (EDT)
From: CNN
Email: None
To: News Flash
Subject: Lower Manhattan Being Evacuated
Message:
Lower Manhattan is now being evacuated. There's a lot of explosions due to gas leaks. A fourth plane was hijacked and crashed near Somerset, Pennsylvania, just outside Pittsburg.

Bin Ladin's name is being floated as behind the attack, although the news reporters are asking people to not jump to conclusions. All of the Senate and House have been evacuated to safe places. I just received an email from a friend who works in the financial district of San Francisco, and she's been told to go home.

All told, two planes were hijacked and crashed into WTTowers. Another one was crashed into the Pentagon, and the fourth in Pennsylvania. Boston and other major cities in N.E. have sent their people home, particularly those who work in towers.

All planes were flying from the east coast to Los Angeles and San Francisco, figuring that they were the biggest planes with the largest fuel loads.

This ain't good.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:43:45 (EDT)
From: CNN
Email: None
To: CNN
Subject: It Wasl Also Announced that
Message:
this attack was in retaliation for the U.S.'s support of Israel.

Bush is not returning to Washington. Senator McCain said these attacks are an act of war.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:56:16 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: CNN
Subject: Re: It Wasl Also Announced that
Message:
Senator McCain is irresponsible to say this. Pearl Harbor was not a fanatical group acting on its own. That was an act of war. This is the act of people taking it upon themselves to strike out for their own reasons. McCain is an idiot.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:24:27 (EDT)
From: arlos
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Unless it was done with trhe knowledge
Message:
and consent of 1 of the countries, like Libia, that hosts terrorist groups; in that case it would be an act of war by that host country. But you are definately right that it was irresponsible of McCain to use that kind of retoric this early, when little or nothing is known.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:01:00 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: They're all idiots...
Message:
The CIA, the NSA, the politicians.

This was an act of war. The rules have changed since the ''conventional'' wars. Christ, it took a long time (almost until the end) of the Vietnam conflict to be a declared war.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:23:31 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: News Flash
Subject: Comic relief?
Message:
I just thought of something. Didn't somebody just recently BUY the World Trade Center at a record price? Imagine how that guy must feel.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:31:26 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Comic relief?
Message:
does his insurance cover plane crashing in? Sorry for being incensative. Image all these high building scrambling to get plane crash insurance.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:52:20 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: Comic relief?
Message:
does his insurance cover plane crashing in? Sorry for being incensative. Image all these high building scrambling to get plane crash insurance.


---

Hi salam,

after the IRA bomb in the city of London a few years ago, the main office of one of the big insurance companies was blown up. They had insured the building with themselves, but didn't pay up, demanding the government give them the money instead.

Bitter irony eh?

Anth, wonder who did it.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:57:45 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@river.org
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Comic relief?
Message:
Speaking of the IRA .. some Loyalists set off a bomb
outside a Catholic school in Belfast, last week (Wed?)
Children as young as 4 y.o. were put at risk.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:00:03 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: Comic relief?
Message:
Speaking of the IRA .. some Loyalists set off a bomb
outside a Catholic school in Belfast, last week (Wed?)
Children as young as 4 y.o. were put at risk.


---

I saw the reports. This was the sickest kind of terrorism of all, targeting children on their way to school.

Human Evolution ain't finished yet.

Anth the homo sapien sapien.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:05:09 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: homo sapiens sapiens internettus [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:50:02 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Nothing is Funny Today...Salam...
Message:
My best friend's stepson lives in Manhattan. Before long distance service ended here he reported that at his place of work (6 blocks away) they witnessed the attacks. evacuated.

All of the news network and cable will coordinate coverage because US is in state of emergency and on high alert militarily.

Salam, my thoughts are with you today. I don't have arguments with anyone. We are all humans on this earth.

I agree with you, discussions about the politics of this are inappropriate today. I have no hate in me for humans.

I am comforting myself, you do the same.

Love to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 23:15:26 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Nothing is Funny Today...Salam...
Message:
sorry Cynthia,

Agree, not funny. Was up all night watching the news.

Seeing people falling from high rise building made me sick.

you seem to be very emotional about it,

Salam

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:15:05 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam...
Message:
Hi Salam,

I'm glad you wrote. I am emotional about it because I am a human. I have other issues that have also been triggered that are emotionally based, that's it.

The shock wore off fast and I internalized the magnitude of grieving people directly affected. Need to step back.

I can't sleep so I though I'd check. I had a nice warm fireplace going, a comfort, the warmth.

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:58:14 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Nothing is Funny Today...Salam...
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

I think everyone is moved by what has happened. My office windows were blown out by a big bomb when I worked in Canary Wharf a few years ago. It was reassuring to feel the concern of people who knew me. I hope your friends stepson is alright. I've got a friend who lives in Manahatten too, and am hoping he is OK too.

take care

anth

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:13:10 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: American Attacks
Message:
Yes, the stepson is safe. He lives away from that area.

Vincent and June Sardi, of the famous Sardi's Restaurant, were planning to go to Manhattan. They live here year round, retired. My same friend's partner works for them here taking care of their animals, horses, sheep, and everything else.

It feels terrible not to be able to call my family. Everyone is in shock. It's senseless murder. Terrorism around the world and not so much in US is why Americans are in such shock. Americans seem to be so apathetic about the possibility of such an attack. It's unprecedented.

I am well aware of the horrific terrorism around the world. Why do people make war over land and god? I understand the politics, but mass murder makes no sense to me.

So much hate everywhere.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:43:13 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: American Attacks
Message:
I don't think anything this extreme has happened anywhere in the world. I think people here UK are quite shocked also It must be very hard if you can't phone or know people who may be there.
Just wanting to send support really.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 09:19:03 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: More extreme things have happened before.
Message:
I don't think anything this extreme has happened anywhere in the world. I think people here UK are quite shocked also It must be very hard if you can't phone or know people who may be there.
Just wanting to send support really.


---

Hiroshima.
Nagasaki.
Dresden.

Then it was US planes dropping the bombs.

Anth, trying to keep things in perspective.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:42:38 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: American Attacks
Message:
Thanks Peg,
It's awful in the fact that innocent people are always the ones that get caught in the crossfire, just like the Oklahoma bombing. One problem we have in this country is the news media. The whip things up into such a frenzy, it just makes the entire horrific situation worse. Then tomorrow, the soap operas will be back on.

The current politics in this country paved the way for something like this to happen. And now the big boys in Washington have a justifiable excuse to go crazy. There aren't many level heads in D.C these day.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:52:43 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: American Attacks
Message:
This has gone beyond the news media, but they don't help. My sister had to turn off the TV very quickly because of her 3 and 1 year old. Plus, her husband's an emotional wreck (the ATC from Providence).

I turned off the tv and radio. What more can I see? It certainly will not stop my weeping. The massive deaths are palpable to me. So I have been going outside, it's such a beautiful pre-autumnal day, 70 degrees, sunny, birds...and the Vermont National Guard went on high alert.

We are at war now, with the terrorists. It just pisses me off that no one in the (oxymoron) intelligence departments and the National Security Agency is bigger than CIA. Why didn't they have the ability to stop this. How could they have not known?

All those innocent victims. All the survivors of those victims.

Cyn

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:47:12 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, they didn't know because they
Message:
This has gone beyond the news media, but they don't help. My sister had to turn off the TV very quickly because of her 3 and 1 year old. Plus, her husband's an emotional wreck (the ATC from Providence).

I turned off the tv and radio. What more can I see? It certainly will not stop my weeping. The massive deaths are palpable to me. So I have been going outside, it's such a beautiful pre-autumnal day, 70 degrees, sunny, birds...and the Vermont National Guard went on high alert.

We are at war now, with the terrorists. It just pisses me off that no one in the (oxymoron) intelligence departments and the National Security Agency is bigger than CIA. Why didn't they have the ability to stop this. How could they have not known?

All those innocent victims. All the survivors of those victims.

Cyn


---

didn't develop 'assets' (in place local operatives, either locals recruited for money, ideals or thru blackmail, or 'moles' planted under deep cover so they SEEM to be locals) outside of Cold War targets. If you don't have agents inside a group and what the group does doesn't show up in satelight survailence photos nor in the media you don't find out about it. Big Brother is much less slick than many people, including you, seem to think. And definately not even close to all knowing.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:09:42 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: ::use of labels::
Message:
We are at war now, with the terrorists.

---

We are not at war. That is a strict legal term. I don't
know that war can be declared against persons unknown. It's
just not the right term; I don't like to see it used, since
this type of reasoning can precipitate martial law.

The cure could be *way* worse than the disease.

'Large-scale multiple acts of terrorism' is one adequate term
to describe the acts witnessed on Tuesday in NYC, Washington,
D.C. and elsewhere. -a0aji

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:22:56 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: I don't feel so 'PC' today...
Message:
Chris, this is the new war. The war in which technology has enabled individuals and groups to create mass destruction. I am not talking about legalities. If it's a war zone, it's a war zone.

These cave dwellers had support from countries. But, I concede because it is being used as rhetoric for the politicians, and by media to upset people, so it's not an actual, on the books type of war.

Looks like one to me though,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 01:29:53 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: :: those pilots should be grounded ::
Message:
I thought about it, and most (almost all?) of the attacks
today were done by doing this:

Steering an aircraft's flight path towards a building.

That's very different from even assembling a bomb -- the
technology is almost negligible; the technology used today
was that of willingness to pilot an aircraft inappropriately.

Eerie!

Today I was worried about chemical, biological and nuclear
weapons; I kept watch on the horizion.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 14:44:01 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: The Hijackers were piloting...
Message:
That's not what happened based on reports of cellphone calls from the hijacked planes.

On at least the one that was headed for the Pentagon, the wife of the Solicitor General (what does he do, anyway?) told him the passengers, flight crew, including pilots were in the back and the hijackers were screaming at the people if you have a cell phone call your loved ones because you won't be seeing them again.

One expert consultant for CNN, a retired commercial pilot, said that the avionics on these aircrafts, the 757, 767 are similar, but very sophisticated. Therefore, he concluded that if the pilots were at the back of the plane or shot, there had to be very well trained pilots (the hijackers) who had extensive training, in order to fly into a target such as those towers. He said even the best commercial pilot would have difficulty maneuvering those aircrafts into what essentially was a small target, the towers.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:35:40 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Our inteligence people don't have people
Message:
who penetrated Bin Laden's group, Hamas, etc., the way they did Russia. And terrorist activities can't be deduced by eleciny (electronic inteligence - phone taps, satelite photos, etc.) the way military movements can. That's why we didn't know. The CIA & the NSA have been putzes for decades - but this 1 isn't there fault for missing it.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 00:02:53 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: Our inteligence people don't have people
Message:
who penetrated Bin Laden's group, Hamas, etc., the way they did Russia. And terrorist activities can't be deduced by eleciny (electronic inteligence - phone taps, satelite photos, etc.) the way military movements can. That's why we didn't know. The CIA & the NSA have been putzes for decades - but this 1 isn't there fault for missing it.


---

Some of these Bin Laden style groups are based on deep, long-term relationships. Infiltration has to circumvent that somehow.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:24:22 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Agreed; that circumvention is done by
Message:
who penetrated Bin Laden's group, Hamas, etc., the way they did Russia. And terrorist activities can't be deduced by eleciny (electronic inteligence - phone taps, satelite photos, etc.) the way military movements can. That's why we didn't know. The CIA & the NSA have been putzes for decades - but this 1 isn't there fault for missing it.


---

Some of these Bin Laden style groups are based on deep, long-term relationships. Infiltration has to circumvent that somehow.


---

'deep cover' moles. But ours were aimed at Russia and other Cold War targets. We are woefully weak in Middle Eastern 'assets' (in place operatives). And the trend is to fund electronic intelligxnce gathering approaches. Whether the CIA will dip into their off the books monies from some of their agency owned firms or not is a big question, too.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:16:25 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: Our inteligence people don't have people
Message:
Arnold Shwarzkopf agrees with you, Carlos. He says the problem is that American ethics forbade us to infiltrate groups with agents because it was looked upon as bad, an infringement upon foreignors' rights for American spies to engage in covert operations that sent spies into foreign oraganizations. We instead would rely on high tech spying where we could keep some arms length where the international community wouldn't get all upset about America pushing it's weight around. Sounds like bullshit to me. Who's going to give a fuck if the USA has got undercover agents in an organization like bin Laden's? It's probably because we didn't (according to Schwarzkopf) that this was allowed to happen.
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 15:44:12 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: u r partly right & partly wrong, Jerry.
Message:
Arnold Shwarzkopf agrees with you, Carlos. He says the problem is that American ethics forbade us to infiltrate groups with agents because it was looked upon as bad, an infringement upon foreignors' rights for American spies to engage in covert operations that sent spies into foreign oraganizations. We instead would rely on high tech spying where we could keep some arms length where the international community wouldn't get all upset about America pushing it's weight around. Sounds like bullshit to me. Who's going to give a fuck if the USA has got undercover agents in an organization like bin Laden's? It's probably because we didn't (according to Schwarzkopf) that this was allowed to happen.


---

Hi tech was easier to get budgeted and hence easier for a bureaucrat (and almost all top level goverment empoyees are real slick bureaucrats) to grow his/her little empire. Plus, we didn't see these guys in the Middle East as serious threats till after Russia lost the cold war, so we didn't try to infiltrate them. Plus it will take clobbering the at least 1 host state, like Libia, so the terrorist groups stop having a friedly home base and staging ground, to put a condition in place that MIGHT (not will, might) prevent these kind of things from happening. And untill it happened here in the US the American public would have disapproved of such an act, going to war with, say, Libia or Afganistasn, too much for the chicken shit politicians to OK it. And it couldn't be done as a black bag op (covert), it'd have to be done in the light of day.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:45:57 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: American Attacks
Message:
Thanks, Peg.

It is affecting everything. The twin towers collapsed. My sister from RI emailed me to tell me to shut off my tv and listen on the radio. So I'm online and just listening to the tv news. Repeat watching of that attack is traumatic.

Be well,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:38:27 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: American Attacks
Message:
I just want to send my support to you all as well. London came to a standstill and people went home from work. Everyone here is shocked to the core. Here security is on red alert as there are fears that Britain may be targeted as well. We have lived with bombs and terroist atacks on this island, but nothing on this scale it is very frightening.I am thinking of you all.
Love magiclara
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:11:06 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: News Flash
Subject: Re: World Trade Center attacked(NT)
Message:
I think it's a terrible tragedy. I feel sorry for all the hundreds of people that must have lost their life. I hope no one I've known is hurt.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:29:56 (EDT)
From: Another News Flash.
Email: None
To: News Flash
Subject: Iraq bombed every day for months.
Message:
but it ain't news anymore is it?

Anth the human.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:01:24 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Another News Flash.
Subject: Re: Iraq bombed every day for months.
Message:
Yes Anth, So so true .....and every second of every minute of every hour ....somewhere in this world innocent men , women and children are suffering similar horrific suffering.

It is truly truly tragic what has happened in America .....yet the US centricity of it, as always, makes me wonder.....does suffering only become real if it happens to America or in America? Maybe that seems harsh and unfeeling but in reality I don't think so. We are so manipulated by the media and the worlds rich powerful countries.

I still get haunted by the little Palestinian boy shot months ago when he was trying to take cover with father. Just a statistic, just an Arab , just a pawn ......IT'S HAPPENING EVERYWHERE, IT 'S HAPPENING ALWAYS.

We either cry and come to a halt every second of our lives or we accept this shitty world regardless of frontiers and borders and try to make it better.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:10:38 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Iraq bombed every day for months.
Message:
It is truly truly tragic what has happened in America .....yet the US centricity of it, as always, makes me wonder.....does suffering only become real if it happens to America or in America?

Dermot, when it happens in your own back yard, yes, it does hit hardest. Yes, it does hurt more, and yes, it is more real. If you think there's something wrong with that, you just don't know much about human nature.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:57:28 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Iraq bombed every day for months.
Message:
Jerry

I know enough about human nature to last this lifetime at least.

It all depends on how big your backyard is. Does it end at canada to the north and mexico to the south or does it include mother earth ? My backyard is mother earth whether you agree with that or not

I repeat its tragic ....but so is much else going on beyond the US border...that's my point. It's naturally human (human nature) to think that.

My Irish background/English abode (and countless terrosit activities over here) helped me get to this point of view. No lectures PLEASE.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:50:21 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Sorry, Dermot
Message:
Dermot,

I don't mean to get on your case. Really, I'm not interested in getting into any arguments with anybody today. I'm in a state of shock. Really. I work in Manhattan, just 30 blocks up from the WTC. I've lived all my life in NYC. The World Trade Center is just something you've become accustomed to as part of NYC's skyline. To watch it just crumble into nothing and see a big gaping hole where you've always been accustomed to these two massive towers is, well, surreal, to say the least. It's just hard to believe it's happenned. And the loss of life. They're estimating 10,000 once they've cleared through all the rubble and have recovered all the bodies. It boggles.

Be well, Dermot.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:09:40 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: ::dude:: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 19:05:08 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Sorry, Dermot....sorry Jerry
Message:
Yes I know how you must feel ....it is shocking what happened .....we all have our perspectives and in this case the WTC is a lot closer to you than it is to me.

Many years ago ....I was walking with my young daughter through London . A few minutes later (luckily we'd leftthe danger zone by then) an IRA bomb went off

We were so close but luckily escaped the horror.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:13:09 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: What about the children??
Message:
Americans are so nonchalant about the horrors that innocent people, often children, experience every day in the world.

Americans, and I am one, feel so shielded from any harm.

Children are too often the victims of this fucked up world. I am concerned about American children today, who may be over-exposed by watching this on tv with their parents.

I shut my tv off, for a while, at least. My heart is lying on my feet today.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:45:41 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: What about the children??
Message:
I agree.

By the way ...children all arounfd the world (not just American) will be watching it on tv.

I don't really want to argue the point ....it is really terrible what's happened....I'm just saying it is ALWAYS happening.

.... however I don;t understand your point about Americans feeling shielded from harm .....it's such a violent society ....there are many safer places on the earth. Also I noticed on Netscape the other day that 300 000 underage US kids are abused in the US sex industry.

Nationality, patriotism etc are rarely used for good altruistic means......usually used to seperate people....us/them ....goodies/baddies.

I'm not anti American on a person to person, people to people basis ....just on the world power play level.

Whoever we are, wherever we come from ....we are just human beings. Nothing more and nothing less.

I understand how upset you feel after such traumatic events.....I guess I'm just saying ...suffering is suffering is suffereing....whoever/wherever. Sad but true.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:13:18 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: What about the children??n??
Message:
I meant shielded from major catastrophic attacks like today.

I've been reading a book by Alice Walker (see my post in a thread below: I must be a Pagan).

Alice Walker has been a prominent figure in trying to stop the ancient rituals in Africa and other Muslim countries of female genital mutilation (FGM). It's a ritual performed by women on girls. The cutting off of their clitoris's and often sewing up their vaginas is torture of unimaginable dimensions. Later in life, sex and childbirth are the same. She also discusses mutilation of faces and other body parts on boys, too.

I am not a proud American, believe me. The media is so fucked up. Politics are all fucked up.

In her book Anything We Love Can Be Saved she published essays about many controversial topics besides genital mutilation. She talks about the early civilizations which were matriarchal rather than men centered. Archaelogists have learned that they were peaceful civilizations.

Walker quotes an African man, Samuel Zan, who she met at a conference in Africa (who has deep scares on his face and is an advocate for stopping FGM). He said ''If the women of the world were comfortable, this would be a comfortable world.''

I am now speaking about the violence against women and children all over the world, regardless of what religion they have or nation they live in. I am coming from a ''near miss'' sexual assault on me last Friday, by a friend who I considered a brother and best friend to my husband. I went to visit him never expecting to be betrayed.

That's why I'm upset. Why do so many men hate and violate women and children so much? I am not placing judgement on anyone on this forum. I speak to the society, culture, country I live within which is so violent; the violence which I have experienced since childhood resonates throughout my soul today watching senseless mass murder.

The suppression of women around this planet is causing us all great harm and we are moving in a dangerous direction. I am angry at being betrayed by a 'friend' and I am angry that those good men, like you, those men here, as well as my husband who seem helpless, indifferent? to do nothing about it.

I'm sorry if I offend. It's been a terrible week for me. My husband is out of town and I told him what happened to me and he's also very upset.

A microcosism of an experience which affects no one but me, within the large earth we all must inhabit. Something must be done by all the good men who live here on earth with us women.

Too many women carry the majority of the burden of trying to change this world into a peaceful place, one in which we can live safely, to love, to love eachother, to embrace eachother with without fear of betrayal and harm.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:07:31 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: :: age or gender demographics ::
Message:
I think there's a problem with casting men in an evil role.
Women hurt men all the time. Men hurt women, all the time.
Both hurt children ... all the time.

People have been circulating the 'men are evil' meme quite
a bit in the last 20 years. This is wrong, and will only
contribute to the problems they attempt to address by doing
so.

People do evil things. There is no one, simple demographic
to categorize them (so as to get a handle on 'why'). There
is doubtless different evils visited on people, based on
the victim's age and gender.

Children are certainly more helpless than adults, but I think
the 'women and children first' meme is a bit worn out; every
week television dramas try to re-educate us as to the roles
women in society can and do perform, when emergencies arise.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:45:06 (EDT)
From: ggg
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: What about the children??
Message:
Cynthia
I can only agree and sympathise with you and pray for all women and children everywhere who are being abused and exploited. It is indeed a sad week, but also a sad world.
love to all those suffering and a prayer for everyone
ggg
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:32:22 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: ggg
Subject: Thanks, ggg...It's not about me...
Message:
Hi,

It's not about me, I apologize for spouting off because of a personally vulnerable time. This is about everyone. Americans are in shock, the world is too. I get the CBC Canadian Broadcast Chnl. and I watched that for a while. Much more calm and civilized coverage. And from a different country, even though it's so close to our border. Vermont is like a different country to me because of it's completely natural and rural culture.

I spoke to my sisters today--I have 4. The one who has K (but doesn't practice) has two 2 young teenagers, and they were watching at school on tv and the school admin. received orders to stop letting them watch. Wise move.

This same sister works as a counselor at a mental health clinic and she said tomorrow is going to be difficult, because the agency has extended counseling for any children who have been traumatized by watching the coverage and by seeing their parents' emotional reactions--that is good.

After the bigwigs from the Senate and Congress gave their speeches, they sang God Bless America.

God bless America
Land that I love,
Stand beside her
etc., etc.

Love to everyone here,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:44:02 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: What about the children??
Message:
Sorry to hear about your experience last Friday Cynthia...it must be really disorientating to be betrayed like that.I wish you well.

As for the gender politics/sociology aspect of your post....again I sympathise with you. I've often wondered how I would be were I born female instead of male. I reckon I would have been a real pain in the butt to all out and out chauvanistic men and be a real fiesty, no bullshit fighter for my gender. These things I can only imagine though. I happened to be born a white, western male.

It's true to an extent that we all (even subconciously) live according to pre set stereotypes but even so there are enough sussed people around for goodness and justice to turn up in the most un-expected places.

Take care....and God Bless America :))

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:33:21 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: An addendum to my post above...
Message:
Hi Dermot,

Thanks for your warm thoughts. I want to clarify that I have believed for a long time that all the major religions of the world, Christians, Roman Catholics, Muslims, Jews, and all the smaller groups that have sprung from these major male oriented institutions are what cause the violence in this world.

I know women belong to these religions, too. I don't wish to insult anyone's sensibilities because of a personal outrage.

Yet, in the name of religion, so many wars have destroyed the human spirit.

I am feeling better...was able to call out of state, finally, and talk to my sisters, mother, and husband.

Love and peace to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:45:11 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Another News Flash.
Subject: Re: Iraq bombed every day for months.
Message:
You got it right Anth.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:25:43 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Another News Flash.
Subject: Re: Iraq bombed
Message:
Anth,

You trying to drag me into a debate that I don't want to get in at the moment. What's with the cacas watching.

ummm um ummmmm

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:38:27 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: Iraq bombed
Message:
Hi salam,

no worries mate. I put my post up before I switched the tv on. It is really terrible that all those innocent people have been killed.

Watching the politicians react though, I can't help feel they are a bunch of hypocrites.

All human life is precious. I think we agree on that. Wherever innocent people are deliberately killed, it is a crime against humanity, be it Bagdhad, New York, Palestine, Washington, Dresden, Belfast, Bosnia, or London.

anth

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:31:39 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: News Flash
Subject: An act of war that will live in infamy
Message:
There are tens of thousands of deaths all in the space of one hour. Three hijacked planes hit the WTC. Now as I write, another plane has just been found to be hijacked...

And it's on its way to Washington...

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:51:43 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Very melodramatic, Sir D
Message:
Nobody here in the US knows, yet, the extent of the casualties, so I don't know where you guys in the UK are getting your info. If there are any planes headed to Washington, they're going to be shot down before they get near the Capitol. Fighter jets are patrolling the area like buzzards.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:07:50 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hello Sir!
Message:
Jerry: I don't know where you guys in the UK are getting your info.

Same place as you Jerry. The TV; radio; phone calls; the web. People where I work have abandoned their workstations to cluster round radios and watch TVs. Others are scouring the web for accessible news sites.

It's just a small planet now. Let's hope all the neighbours start listening to each other to work out how we can all get along OK.

And let's hope that happens Real Soon.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:48:48 (EDT)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: United Airlines 175 still missing
Message:
United Airlines flight 175 was flying from Boston to LA and is still missing. I suspect the one that came down in PA may have been shot down. Just speculation though.

I think the airways pilots would already have been dead - shot by the terrorists who then flew the planes into the buildings. No airline pilot would fly his plane into a building, not even under threat. Yeah, they'd have to shoot them first.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:59:45 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Re: United Airlines 175 still missing
Message:
My bro-in-law said same thing. No pilot would do it. He is so upset because he had to send many aircraft away--he's been an ATC for 8 years in Navy, and 5 years in US FAA.

Imagine telling pilots to secure your cockpit, secure the plane and try to land elsewhere, when all airports were grounded and towers closed in the country.

He must be terrorized. I can't call anyone but earlier I was able to talk to my other sister in CT whose husband has been a firefighter for 30 years. He said the firefighters would have to go up the tower in freight elevators operating on generators. As we know now, many were lost when the towers collapsed.

What in the name of humanity and mother earth is going on?

Love to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:59:39 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Interesting fact
Message:
All the planes hijacked were jumbo jets scheduled to fly from the east coast to the west coast. That's 3000 miles. For that duration the fuel tanks of the jets are filled to capacity. Whoever coordinated this attack must have known that and figured they could cause maximum damage by crashing the planes while still early in their flight, as was the case of the plane from Boston that detoured it's scheduled flight to Los Angeles to fly into the World Trade Center.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:31:40 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: News Flash
Subject: Re: World Trade Center attacked(NT)
Message:
They look like two huge smokestacks. Two planes flew purposely right into them. No word yet on casualties or who is responsible although the FBI is calling it a terrorist attack.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:46:07 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Now the Pentagon is on fire!
Message:
And they're evacuating the White House! What the fuck is gong on?!
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:58:45 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: PLEASE POST NEWS (ot)
Message:
The freakin 'net is jammed, but there is still access here!
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:32:00 (EDT)
From: ***
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: September 11
Message:
(don't remember which year-after WorldWar 2) was the day the United Nations made the decision to allow the creation of a new country (Israel).
That day was proclaimed a day of mourning by the arab States
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:55:18 (EDT)
From: CNN
Email: None
To: ***
Subject: September 11 is the ...
Message:
anniversary of the Camp David Accord
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:30:47 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: The second tower just collapsed
Message:
The World Trade Center is no more. Both buildings have completely collapsed.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:24:33 (EDT)
From: ***
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Camp David attacked (nt)
Message:
***
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:55:37 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: chris@river.org
To: ***
Subject: Can anyone confirm: Camp David attacked [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:05:07 (EDT)
From: ***
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: Camp David correction
Message:
No confirmation of attack-just that an highjacked plane was headed that way (but who knows will all the confusion)
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:40:49 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: ***
Subject: ::thanks!:: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:16:15 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: ***
Subject: Yeah, the stupid reporters...
Message:
Trying to get info about the whereabouts of the President, idiots.

No one's talking about the CIA. I have not heard the CIA mentioned ONCE! Weird and creepy.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:23:28 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Where WAS the CIA?!
Message:
The thought that keeps running through my mind is how could such a well coordinated attack like this take place without SOMEBODY in the intelligence community catching wind of it? The United States intelligence agencies is the most well-financed intelligence gathering community in the world. Where WERE these guys?!
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 13:50:10 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: ::this could provoke martial law::
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:03:30 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Chris, I just emailed you... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 01:57:49 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: ::just got it, Cynthia - tnx:: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:20:48 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: One of the towers collapsed!
Message:
The south building of the WTC has completely collapsed and engulfed all of lower Manhattan in smoke and debris. Still no word of casusalties. All airports across the country have been shut down. The Pentagon was also attacked by a suicide airplane attack. All roads and tunnels into New York City have been closed.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:08:32 (EDT)
From: Dirk
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: American Airlines Plan Hijacked
Message:
An American Airlines Plane flying from Boston to New York was Hijacked...(most likely with Full Capacity) and Diverted into the World Trade Center..These SONS OF BITCHES!!!!
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:39:46 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Dirk
Subject: :: weighing in ::
Message:
I live in Connecticut and have good uninterrupted connectivity to the Internet (to California and Hotboards, at least!)

My friend just told me about this story, at 2:20 pm GMT. It
began some time after 1:00 pm GMT. Apparently there is a
ban on all air traffic in the USA!

Dan Rather/CBS live coverage, ongoing. Probably all the
networks (NBC, ABC, CBS anyway).

This hasn't sunk in, yet.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:52:18 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Lengthy report
Message:
One of the towers of New York's World Trade Center has collapsed
after two planes, believed to have been hijacked by terrorists, crashed into the office block.

Another plane has crash into the Pentagon in Washington.

At least one of the plane that hit the New York landmark is believed to be an American Airlines passenger plane hijacked after takeoff from
Boston.

Seven injured in Pentagon attack
At least seven people were injured today as two explosions ripped the
west side of the Pentagon, forcing authorities to order an evacuation,
witnesses said.

`There was an explosion, a fire. People kept their cool, people started working with each other to get out,'' said Lieutenant Colonel Robert Snyder, who was in the basement level of the Pentagon building when one of the explosions hit.

`It's a bomb. Get out,'' said a Pentagon spokesman as authorities
ordered an evacuation of the building. Fire trucks were trying to put out the blazes.

``I heard two loud booms - one large, one small,'' said Lisa Burgess, a reporter for Stars and Stripes newspaper. She said she saw smoke
billowing from one side of the building.

The Pentagon is the country's largest office complex, with more than
24,000 people working within its walls.

Explosion rocks Capitol Hill
Within the hour of the World Trade Center incident, an aircraft crashed on a helicopter landing pad near the Pentagon, and the West Wing of the White House was evacuated amid threats of terrorism.

A US official says one of the planes that crashed into the World Trade
Centre had been hijacked after takeoff from Boston.

All planes have been grounded across the country by the Federal Aviation Administration.

All bridges and tunnels into Manhattan are closed and several subway
lines were immediately shut down.

Trading on Wall Street was suspended.

Bush: 'Apparent terrorist attack on our country'
President George Bush today called the crashing of two planes into the
World Trade Centre in New York, where 40,000 people work, an
'apparent terrorist attack on our country'.

Bush said that he had been in contact with Vice President, the Governor of New York and the Director of the FBi.

He said he had ordered a full investigation, adding that such an act of terrorism against the United States would not stand.

``Terrorism against our nation will not stand,'' Bush said as he cut short a visit to Florida to return to Washington.

Earlier flashes
CNBC television reports that at least six people were killed and 1,000
injured after two planes crashed into the twin towers of New York's
landmark World Trade Centre.

The report says the FBI is investigating a possible plane hijacking ahead of the crash. The two planes smashed within minutes of each other into the twin towers.

CNN quotes an eyewitness as saying a small twin-engined plane hit the
first tower, tearing a huge gash into the upper floors of the building.

It said that 18 minutes after the initial accident, a second plane tore through the World Trade Centre's second tower.

TV viewers round the world watched live as the second plane hit the
second tower.

Eyewitnesses were quoted as saying that it looked like the plane may
have been directed at the tower deliberately.

In Washington, the FBI was investigating reports of a plane hijacking
before the crashes.

The first crash happened shortly before 9am (11pm AEST).

'The plane was coming in low and ... it looked like it hit at a slight angle,' said Sean Murtagh, a CNN vice president, the network reported.

Large holes were visible in two sides of the 110-storey building, one of landmark twin towers.

A witness reported a 'sonic boom' as a commercial passenger jet
collided into the building between the 80th and 85th floor.

Debris was seen plunging into the street below.

The large passenger commercial jet was teetering towards the tower
before it 'embedded in building,' New York resident Jeanne Yurman told
the network.
[ smh.com.ua ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:08:51 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: 8 planes total were hijacked
Message:
Only 4 have been accounted for, the two that crashed into the WTC, one that crashed into the Pentagon, one that crashed in Pennsylvania.

There are still 4 hijacked planes in the air. Nobody knows where they are or where they're headed.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:18:09 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: more from australia (!)
Message:
Hijacked plane heading for Pentagon
An FBI official says a hijacked plane is heading toward the Pentagon.

The official says Ronald Reagan National Airport reported it was about a minute out by radar.

Shortly after the warning, a fighter jet overflew the Pentagon building which had already been hit by two explosions, leaving at least seven dead and many others wounded.

Meanwhile, police have cleared the area around the building and set up
an emergency makeshift medical unit under a highway overpass to treat the wounded.

At some distance from the Pentagon, crowds of people could be seen
watching the dramatic scene unfold below.

Arafat condemns attacks
Palestinian President Yasser Arafat condemned the aircraft attacks today on the World Trade Center in New York and on the Pentagon in
Washington.

``I send my condolences, the condolences of the Palestinian people to
American President (George W) Bush and his government and to the
American people for this terrible act,'' Arafat told reporters in Gaza.

``We completely condemn this serious operation...We were completely
shocked. It's unbelievable, unbelievable, unbelievable.''

An anonymous caller told Abu Dhabi television earlier today that a radical Palestinian group was responsible for the attacks, but the group later denied any involvement.

Meanwhile, Israel is to evacuate its diplomatic staff from the United
States, fearing they may be targets following a series of attacks which rocked the United States today, Israeli public television said.
[ smh.com.au ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:42:01 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: USA is AT WAR! INFO FOR THOSE WITHOUT COVERAGE!!!
Message:
I cannot make any long distance calls. I am so shocked by this horrific day.

My sister in RI is able to call me and had early info due to her husband being Air Traf. Ctrl. in Providence. Providence closed down it's tower and sent all personnel, including my bro-in-law, home.

All inter'l flights diverted to Canada. All airports grounded. All planes in air ordered to land at closest airport or Canada. All USAir planes (as reported??) were hijacked.

Pentagon attacked; side of building collapsed.

All federal buildings in ctry evacuated.

NBC, CNBC, CNN, CNNHeadline, CBS(the worst coverage), ABC all reporting. Hospitals have hundreds of totally burned people both alive and dead. Firefighters were in towers when they collapsed.

Outside Pittsburg, PA, another hijacked plane crashed. Also USAir. Not many details.

All financial institutions closed. Treasury Dept. closed. Pentagon evacuated.

I'm shaking. I can't call out. I can watch, if anyone wants information because the major websites are jammed, please say so and I'll give updates.

I am feeling shocked. The US is at war. The devestation is beyond measure.

Cynthia

Reporters say we are official At War. Highest military alert.

Both trade towers are collapsed. Dir. of trade tower said 10,000 in each tower.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:34:08 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Breathe in breathe out
Message:
Cynthia,
It's okay. Really. Breathe in some oxygen. This isn't war unless the current administration wants to turn it into war, which would benefit them since they own the companies and/or major stock in defense manufacturing plants. War is when one country attacks another. No country has attacked the U.S. A fanatical group has taken it upon themselves to do this. Sound familiar? The only difference is they have absolutely no qualms about destroying living human beings in the process. It probably sounds even worse via the radio because it leaves the imaginiation to chance. The news is running out of things to show so they are replayng the tapes continually.

The people who this hurt are innocent. Lets send them our heart's wishes. Let's remember that the country where these fanatical terrorists came from have ordinary people, ordinary families, and extraordinary politicians that do not condone or support any of these acts. Again, this isn't war unless the U.S. turns it into one. The politicians may choose to parlay this into something it isn't to suit their agendas. Think things through. It's scary but don't get caught up in their agendas.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:22:21 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: USA is AT WAR!
Message:
cynthia,

I think there was some time to evacuate after the collision, though probably many died or were trapped. The USA military is at highest alert only around the pentagon area. The Canadian are taking in all planes heading to the USA and closing their air space. Some reports about closing the boarders with Mexico.

I am not in America, but I was sitting in front of the tv when the newsbreak began, then the second plane hit ...etc.

Am as affected by this as you are, though it is your country.

Look after yourself

Salam

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:49:58 (EDT)
From: Chris Hafey
Email: chris@river.org
To: Cynthia
Subject: ::Re: USA is::
Message:
I cannot make any long distance calls. I am so shocked by this horrific day.

---

I'm still here, Cynthia. I was sick to my stomach for a
while; it took a while for the fear to subside.

You are loved.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 12:07:38 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Chris Hafey
Subject: Re: ::USA is::
Message:
Thanks Chris. This forum is the only way I can communicate with anyone except locally. I am too shaky to drive into town and I have things I need to do. So what, eh?

My sister called me while I was on line. SHIT! Her husband the ATC in Providence came home and is EXTREMELY upset because he had to tell many pilots to lock their cockpits, go on high security and land elsewhere??ANYWHERE--a horror story for him He became an ATC in the Navy.

The entire country is being paralyzed when thousands of planes are in the air every moment of a regular day.

I am able to come here. It feels safe here. I feel prayers and sorrow. Inner prayers, a feeling of tremendous loss. Can we be psychically connected that the Universe has shifted significantly?

I also feel very safe here at home.

You are loved, too, Chris

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:27:20 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I cannot say anything
Message:
I am crying so much I can't see.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:45:01 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Me too, Pat...
Message:
It's so incongruous to be living in a place that is filled with serenity, nature, and to watch this anti-human, anti-nature act defies all understanding.

Be well, hug eachother a lot,
You are loved,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:47:47 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Me too, Pat...
Message:
Now is the time to send all our love and kind thoughts to the all the ..I can't finish
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:41:34 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: I cannot say anything
Message:
My thoughts are with you Pat
Love Magiclara
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:37:15 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: I cannot say anything
Message:
It's likely you may know some people who were on the S.F. bound plane or at least will come into contact with people who do. The same with the L.A. flight. They will need your calmness, level headedness and sense of compassion. Be there for them. You can do it.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:46:09 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Thanks btdt and magiclara
Message:
I probably don't know any of the victims personally but the horror of it is overwhelming - people leaping out of windows to their death rather than be burned alive. I am shaking and crying. I need to stop and pray and mourn.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 14:56:21 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Have a drink...I am...
Message:
Maybe you need to turn off your tv for a while.

I feel much better with silence or music playing. Mostly silence.

It's so palpable, isn't it? The horror.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 15:05:12 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Have a drink...I am...
Message:
When the 89 quake happened I had several drinks as we watched the mushroom cloud and flames over the Marina but this is so much worse. I am calming down now. I never watch the news so I didn't know about it until I checked my email and read about it from my sister in South Africa. Of course this is what I was expecting would happen there and spent many a day weeping for that country. My imagination gets a bit carried away and I feel the pain of all the victims.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:25:02 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Have a drink...I am...
Message:
Hi Pat,

I lived in Tiburon in 1989 and did the same thing. I went after a sales appt. to one of the big restaurants on the water side where my work associate and I could see the broken bridge on one side and the marina burning on the other. Same as televised coverage. It was a gut wrenching experience to feel hopeless and have a few drinks while watching the fire get biggger and bigger.

I feel so sorry for those of you in the states now. I am glad that you are able to get online. It would make me feel worse if I didn't have you here to console for the tragedy.

I must have listened to a radio announcer say that LAX was evacuating three times before it finally sunk in. I just couldn't believe my ears when I heard details about what was happening. I'm still in shock. So glad that all of you are okay. I will be here off and on to check up on you guys. This is so tragic. Wish I could give you all big hugs.

You are all in my heart today. I felt too emotional to post earlier today after reading yours and Cynthia's posts. It was so sad. It's a sad day, hope it doesn't get worse.

Take care,

Deborah

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 20:41:07 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I've calmed down now...
Message:
The loss is so great it takes time to sink in and when it does, the tears fly.

This isn't just about America, it's about the entire planet.

I'm just signing off for tonight. I can't discuss this anymore today. I only got 3 hours of sleep last night, and now that the fleas are gone, I can cuddle my kitties (who always sleep with me) and feel safe.

Take care of yourselves everyone, we all are in this together, right?

Much love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:18:02 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: ::that's what Harry Tuttle says:: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:34:50 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: and more from australia (!)
Message:
Confirmation of 767 crash near Pittsburgh
AAP reports that airport officials have confirmed the crash of a large
plane just north of Somerset County Airport, about 130km southeast of
Pittsburgh.

Officials weren't saying what airline was involved. It was unclear if the crash was related to the terrorist attacks in New York City and
Washington.

Sean Cavanaugh, a commissioner in neighbouring Fayette County, said
his emergency management director, Barney Shipley, advised him that the plane originated in either Cleveland or New York and was bound for
Chicago, WPXI reported.

Contrary to earlier reports of the plane being a 767, Cavanaugh said he was told the airplane was a Boeing 747, the largest passenger jet flown domestically.

The Somerset County airport, about 120 kilometres southeast of Pittsburgh, in a small, rural facility that does not handle such aircraft.

Because of the attacks, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) had
ordered all departing flights cancelled nationwide, and any planes already in the air were to land a the nearest airport. The plane crashed shortly after the order was issued.

It was not immediately known if the 747 might have been trying to land at the Somerset County airport when the crash occurred.

There were no other immediate details on the Pennsylvania crash.

Hijacked plane believed a false alarm
Early FBI reports of a hijacked plane heading for the Pentagon appear to be false. No second passenger aircraft has crashed in Washington.
[ smh.com.au ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:15:45 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Sending love
Message:
I send all my love to all of you. I send my love to all people who are suffering today, and afraid today. I send love to myself. I send love to my body so that it doesn't become another victim of terror. I send love to all the bodies that are afraid or hurting or injured.

I was born and raised in an atmosphere of terror about war, and I'm not going there again. There is a lot of love in the world - even on this forum. Let's put our focus there and expand that.

Feeling sad.

Love Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:49:59 (EDT)
From: ggg
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Sending love
Message:
Dear Disculta I can only agree with you and sympathise with all my heart to all those who are suffering and in shock today. It is hard to comprehend.

Love ggg

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 17:25:19 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: ggg
Subject: Disculta...
Message:
Thank you for your kind words of love. We all need it today.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:10:39 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: IT AIN'T OVER YET
Message:
Looks like everything has gone into suspended animation since the caca incident. All forums are quite.

How come?

So who benefited from this? CACA has been removed for a reason, but by whom? Did the lawyers of Maharaji advise him that there is a possibility of a legal suit if the site continues?

What about public relations?
Above from the pathetic press release that EV has made, no one [premies] is talking about it. I think EV should really remove the press release and save face.

I know that a lot of exes are apprehensive to posting on the forums at present, well what can you say. Being described, as pedophilia when u are hugging your little daughter is not something anyone wants to be.

Maybe caca think they have achieved something. Maybe they even think that they can redo their site. Well fuck me dead.

If they think it's over, they got their heads stuck up their asses.

Well it ain't over. Oh yeah, like all cult organisations, you took turns into trying to silence your critics, but again, it ain't working. Premies will leave whether you shut down websites, impresion people or threaten them.

What have you got to explain to the world?

I mean really, who the hell are you? Nothing more than puppets with Maharaji hand up your backside.

As for the guru, he is a real sad case for a perfect master, oh sorry speaker of peace. Come on, you can fool a few, but there are a lot of people out there that know what the truth is, but then you have your little rat hole to squirm to.

Well the poll tells it all. Almost every single person doesn't belive a word that you say and think that you and your guru is behind your latest flop. Try convincing them.

As for exes, don't let those chickens stand in your way, come back and give them heaps. Let's see what scheem they come up with next.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:35:10 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: OVER
Message:
maharaji is done, and that shows with the increasing numbers of premies leaving/posting here.

Time to wake up: Too much information to continue playing stupid, as if the guru is beneficial in any way. A cult leader who weakens people, who makes them dependant and needy of a dream and stupid ideology eventually comes down. I can hear him falling....

MAHARAJI, HISTORY WILL REMEMBER YOU, OH MY LORD, OPRESSOR OF MY POOR MIND WHO ALMOST SELF-DESTROYED ITSELF....BUT I WON, I'M FREE, AND YOU, OH MY LORD, ARE NOTHING BUT A PATHETIC, TERRIBLE GREEDY BEING!

May the force have mercy on you...because I still believe in karma.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:13:58 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: the paramhans advait mat book
Message:
in this book shri maharaji ( the 1st master )
stated that he observed that there seem to be 2
types of successors, physical and spritual, so
obviously vairaganand was indeed the physical
successor and hans ji the spiritual one, or was
it the other way round???anyway the lineage of hans ji is authentic. why wasn't he mentioned in
the advait mat book??because general motors does
not promote nissan cars, quite simply..
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:01:18 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: don p.
Subject: Re: the paramhans advait mat book
Message:
'anyway the lineage of hans ji is authentic. why wasn't he mentioned in '

Because in India he has always been a small-fry guru. Hans is only mentioned in DLM/EV publications. and there was a newspaprerreport about hansji beinginvolved in some scandal(I don't remember the details).
The importance you give to him is only thru what you have been fed. I know it's hard to see.

Here's hoping you see the light soon.

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 04:15:35 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: the paramhans advait mat book
Message:
mind you, but i disagree that hans ji was a small-fry guru. it is
well documented that whenever he spoke or was taken out in procession
high level politicians such as ministers were present. well that is
business as usual in india. but if he was such a small guru why would millions of folks
have bothered to hear his 12 year old son speak? but no, more than
one million people were attending the peace bomb program..
and for richmandrake: i do not doubt anything you wrote..but we
DO have an experience of K, and that is what matters, as baba faqir
chand of the radhaswami lineage put it: even if the master is a fraud
and criminal, if the student is sincere, the student will get the
benefit..so we are all benefitting even tho not in the way we would
have thought..best of luck to you all
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 10:51:27 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: don p.
Subject: Re: the paramhans advait mat book
Message:
Where, apart from DLM/EV publications is it 'well-documented'?
Look I'm not saying that there were not long processions for balyogeshwar. l I'm saying is that there are 100s if not 1000s of 'MAHARAJIS' and prempal is not one of the bigger ones.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:33:07 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: don p.
Subject: Don...Look at the FACTS..
Message:
Don..
As one who up until recently was filled with illogical rationalizations in order to keep MahaRawat on his Throne of Power and Authority....I can understand your Need to do the Same.
But as Painful as it is...I suggest to you...that it is Best..in the Long Run to Face the truth.
MahaRawat..The man who we have credited for years as Being the Highest Incarnation of the Divine....Is really a Long Term Alcholic...who Chain Smokes and is petty, vindictive and exhibits behavior incompatible with one who has an Experience of Inner Peace and Divinity....Much less is 'Merged' with That Experience.

These are the FACTS, Don....they Have been Testified to and Corroborated by Multiple Very Sincere and Credible Ex-Premies on this and Other Sites....
I KNOW it is Very Hard to initially Believe this. I, Myself, Loved, Worshipped and Adored MahaRawat for ALL my Adult Life. I gave him Many Thousands of Dollars....I Focused so Intensely on him..in Group Situations that I had MANY Beautiful Experiences..which I Attributed to HIM..and not the Dynamics of Group Energy and Devotion.

But I Cannot Deny the Truth....and The Truth is Maharaji...MahaRawat..is NOT God..he is Not a Master..and He is NOT looking out for our Best Interest..But His...Whether or not his father was the Appointed Successor of his Lineage...I Dont Know..though I highly suspect from what I've Heard...that He Was Not..

What I DO Know is that MahaRawat..is NOT a Guru, God or Master...
Don, the experience of Practicing Knowledge is Real. The Experiences we had Collectively and Individually, when MahaRawat was on Stage were Also Real.. But MahaRawat..VERY Sadly..is a Fraud.

I am Sorry to Say that, Don..VERY Sorry...But The Evidence is Overwhelming.
Good luck to you, Don. I Know how Difficult it is To Face the Facts after YEARS of Commitment to MahaRawat. Be Good to yourself..and give yourself the Gift of reading the Many Posts from Dettmers, Donner and others...Who have been VERY close to MahaRawat for years on end...and bear witness to the OffStage Man....as VERY Flawed, Neurotic and Abusive...Then, Please Allow yourself to Acknowledge the Truth..That the Beauty,Love, Purpose and Devotion...that you Always thought was a Gift from HIM...REally Belongs to YOU and IS You...and You alone....Thanks For Listening...RichMandrake..

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:16:33 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: ***Very sincere post***
Message:
Rich, that was very well put. Hard to believe the depth of sadness that Maha has caused us. How do you think he sleeps at night?
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 06:34:45 (EDT)
From: ****
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Salam, how does that look
Message:
Salam, Shell we post the pictures of La-ex?
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:44:02 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: ****
Subject: no
Message:
but u can stick them up your nose if u like.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 08:23:58 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: and I forgot to say
Message:

get you know what

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 07:35:12 (EDT)
From: ****
Email: None
To: ****
Subject: Re: Salam, how does that look
Message:
???
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 19:32:44 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My Intro
Message:
Hello to everyone,

I just wanted to take a few minutes and introduce myself to you all. I am so very happy to have found this forum. I received Knowledge in Toronto in 1976. I was attending college at the State University College at Buffalo and majoring in drugs and alcohol at the time so I do have to credit k with saving my life to some extent -- I stopped drinking and using very quickly after beginning to attend S. I lived in Buffalo from '75 to '76 when I moved to Atlanta. I can't remember when I became an Ashram aspirant but it didn't take me long. I lived in the Ashram in Atlanta for awhile -- to Michael Donner and Michael Dettmer -- I knew many people you probably knew -- Erika Anderson and her brother David, Sally Lamb, Nick Jameson, and Denis Murphy just to name a few -- and I went to Jr. High and High School with Steve Sitnik.

I was a bit of a loose cannon in Atlanta and so I was moved to Grand Rapids (I was told that if I didn't make it there I was out) for about 6 months before they closed that house and I was moved to Detroit to the Ashram there. I tried so very hard to fit in, to be the model premie, to dedicate my life to M and to have at least a small amount of the experience I thought the others around me were having. (Man, it just used to chap my butt every time we went through darshan and there was Erika in the recovery room -- I guess I figured if I could have the kind of experience she was having then I would be on the right track.) Did any of you go thru that? Keep hanging on waiting for the Divine experience you weren't having cause you were convinced everyone else was having it and if you could only figure out what part of the equation you were missing then it would happen for you?

Anyway, I had my feet in both worlds -- I had an 'outside job' and so I hung out with co-workers a lot and I then drove home just in time for S and sometimes not even that. I existed like that for a couple of years and then things started to change and when faced with the question 'Do you want to stay in the Ashram?' I could only answer, 'No.' (maybe the fact that I was sleeping with one of the Ashram 'brothers' who later went on to be an 'initiator' was what clued me in that it wasn't the life for me. I left the Ashram in 1981 and tried to stay in touch for the next several years. That was when I was hearing that I must have been mistaken, M never claimed to be the Lord of the Universe, I must have misunderstood. Great, so now I wasted almost 10 years of my life over a misunderstanding. Thanks but no thanks.

So now, 25 years later, I am married and raising 2 wonderful children, supporting women as a childbirth doula, attending a Unitarian Church (a place that lets me find my own spiritual path and understanding) and still having dreams about M that leave me wondering about how deeply into my consciousness I let him in.

Thanks for letting me have a place in which to share this.

Best to all,
Susan

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 18:51:52 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Hi Susan, big welcome to you :)
Message:
Nice to hear from you. How long have you been lurking?

I went away from the cult late eighties. It was unintentional. My life just moved me around and eventually 10 years or so went by before I finally decided to search Maha on the web. I found this place first. I posted telling everyone how I found this place and was actually looking for Maha. Someone gave me a link to his site and I was unimpressed with his website. Maha had gone stale on me.

A few months ago I came back to read, post and tell people I wanted to purge the whole experience. I was unpleasantly surprised how painful it was to realize the extent of the deceit.

I wake up upset very often. So I guess I understand how you feel when you question just how deeply you allowed Maha into your psyche. I also found this out.

What I don't relate to, however, is the depth of experience you attributed to Erika because she frequently OD at Darshan. I was what you would call, a Bliss Bunny. I was super blissed out almost all the time. I was uncomfortable with people who wailed in the Darshan line. It looked like they were faking it to me. Not that any of this means shit to me right now. Actually, the idea of premies crying makes more sense now that I know what a FRAUD the BigHead is and always has been.

It doesn't sound like you're too upset, angry or sad. Are you?

Would like to hear more from you.

fondly,

Deborah

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 19:26:40 (EDT)
From: Suedoula (Susan)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Hi Susan, big welcome to you :)
Message:
Hi Deborah,

BTW that's my middle name :) I just found this site last night. Found M's site a while back and wasn't impressed either -- found it very weird - self centered but why am I surprised at that. Was taken aback by the agreement part but curious enough to check it out.

I think Mike Dettmers wrote in one of his posts something about wondering where he would be now if he hadn't wasted so much of his prime years to M and that is what pisses me off the most. It took me so long to take my life back after being so willing to give it over to someone else that I often wonder what I could have accomplished had I not spent all those years in premie limbo accomplishing very little to nothing.

I'm sad that it took me so long to wake up -- and I am sad at the result -- that I had kids much later in my life and that I found my calling way late and maybe too late to pursue it the way I would like to now.

But I expressed this once to my uncle who told me that everything we do and all the decisions we make in our lives, even the ones that aren't so right on, contribute to who we are now and if we hadn't taken the path we took, even with all the 'wrong' turns, we wouldn't be who we are now. Bruised and battered, maybe, but older and wiser, definately. And then he said look at your kids -- if you had them at a different time in your life you wouldn't have THESE kids and how sad would that be?

So, I console myself with that and then look at my angels and see that my uncle is right.

Erika never cried in the darshan line -- she'd just pass out and spend a couple of hours in the recovery room on a cot -- I don't know why I thought that meant she was having a better experience than me - maybe cause I thought EVERYONE was having a better experience than me. See, I am a cynical New Yawker at heart and was never blissed out all the time -- too busy being sarcastic!

Well, gotta get the kids to bed -- I am holding on to our routine so as not to think about today's events.

Best to all,
Susan

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 02:06:34 (EDT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: jflynn77@home.com
To: Susan
Subject: Re: My Intro
Message:
Hello to everyone,

I just wanted to take a few minutes and introduce myself to you all. I am so very happy to have found this forum. I received Knowledge in Toronto in 1976. I was attending college at the State University College at Buffalo and majoring in drugs and alcohol at the time so I do have to credit k with saving my life to some extent -- I stopped drinking and using very quickly after beginning to attend S. I lived in Buffalo from '75 to '76 when I moved to Atlanta. I can't remember when I became an Ashram aspirant but it didn't take me long. I lived in the Ashram in Atlanta for awhile -- to Michael Donner and Michael Dettmer -- I knew many people you probably knew -- Erika Anderson and her brother David, Sally Lamb, Nick Jameson, and Denis Murphy just to name a few -- and I went to Jr. High and High School with Steve Sitnik.

I was a bit of a loose cannon in Atlanta and so I was moved to Grand Rapids (I was told that if I didn't make it there I was out) for about 6 months before they closed that house and I was moved to Detroit to the Ashram there. I tried so very hard to fit in, to be the model premie, to dedicate my life to M and to have at least a small amount of the experience I thought the others around me were having. (Man, it just used to chap my butt every time we went through darshan and there was Erika in the recovery room -- I guess I figured if I could have the kind of experience she was having then I would be on the right track.) Did any of you go thru that? Keep hanging on waiting for the Divine experience you weren't having cause you were convinced everyone else was having it and if you could only figure out what part of the equation you were missing then it would happen for you?

Anyway, I had my feet in both worlds -- I had an 'outside job' and so I hung out with co-workers a lot and I then drove home just in time for S and sometimes not even that. I existed like that for a couple of years and then things started to change and when faced with the question 'Do you want to stay in the Ashram?' I could only answer, 'No.' (maybe the fact that I was sleeping with one of the Ashram 'brothers' who later went on to be an 'initiator' was what clued me in that it wasn't the life for me. I left the Ashram in 1981 and tried to stay in touch for the next several years. That was when I was hearing that I must have been mistaken, M never claimed to be the Lord of the Universe, I must have misunderstood. Great, so now I wasted almost 10 years of my life over a misunderstanding. Thanks but no thanks.

So now, 25 years later, I am married and raising 2 wonderful children, supporting women as a childbirth doula, attending a Unitarian Church (a place that lets me find my own spiritual path and understanding) and still having dreams about M that leave me wondering about how deeply into my consciousness I let him in.

Thanks for letting me have a place in which to share this.

Best to all,
Susan


---

Interesting the way you describe trying to be the model premie and becoming discouraged and disillssioned when you could not seem to have the spirtual experience you thought or imagined others were having. Also it sounds like you struggled with guilt from having been placed in a double bind, that is trying to supress a powerful unsupressable urge, your sex drive, and not being able to.(you probably can't hold your breath forever either) Didn't it bother you a little when M got married at 16 years old to a sexy blonde, obviously he was having all the sex he wanted to. But of course he was exempt from having to be that austere being God incarnate and all, besides he had transended all those physical limitations, it was just his lila. My godness the paradoxical hypocrisy of it all! We were all such chumps, I can hardly believe it.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:16:36 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: Re: My Intro
Message:
Marolyn wasn't sexy. Beautific or angelic or warm, maybe, but not sexy. I know... it's besides the point.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:37:06 (EDT)
From: Suedoula (Susan)
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: Re: My Intro
Message:
Why would it have bothered me that M was married? I figured he was who he said he was, therefore enlightened beyond my understanding so he could do what he wanted to. And I have to admit that I didn't look at it as if he was getting 'all the sex he wanted' It just made some sort of weird sense to me (don't ask me why now, I can't even remember) that he had a family. I try not to dwell too much on what a chump I was, just on how far I've come since!

Best to all,
Susan

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 02:26:05 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: well,we all bozos in dis bull elephant dung.hohoho [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 01:07:00 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Unity Church?
Message:
Hi Susan,

Yeah, we learned few things but imagine what we miss learning for being u=in a cult for so long...I'm glad you are here. Tell us more about you please, if you want.

Are you from Michigan? I want to find ex-premies who live near me.

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 11:10:22 (EDT)
From: Suedoula (Susan)
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Re: Unity Church?
Message:
I lived in the 'shram in Michigan but I left in 1981. Been in NY and now in CT since then.

Best,
Susan

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:57:34 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Welcome Susan! The Unitarian principles do appeal:
Message:
For those who may not know about Unitarian-Universalist ideas, the following pretty much sum up the core concepts:

(Quoting)

We, the member congregations of the Unitarian Universalist Association, covenant to affirm and promote:

The inherent worth and dignity of every person;

Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;

Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;

A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;

The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;

The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;

Respect for the independent web of all existence of which we are a part.

- - - - -

The living tradition we share draws from many sources:

Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;

Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;

Wisdom from the world's religions which inspire us in our ethical and spiritual life;

Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;

Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;

Spiritual teachings of Earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

(end quote)

Among 'UUs' I've generally found a spirit or attitude of intelligent free inquiry, a rigorous respect for reason and human diversity and alternative world views. It is as though enlightened tolerance and conscious, responsible growth are 'built in' to the organizational and personal efforts of people of this persuasion, right from the get-go.

Best wishes,
Carl

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 09:43:33 (EDT)
From: Suedoula (Susan)
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Re: Welcome Susan!
Message:
Thanks for the welcome, Carl, and for your eloquent post about the UU principles. UU has filled a hole in my spiritual heart that was empty for too long.

Best to all,
Susan

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:04:49 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: I guess I'm a Unitarian agnostic
Message:
Sounds very civilized. Do they also have beautiful architecture and music like the Anglicans?
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:54:34 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re architecture / attitudes
Message:
It varies. I am familiar with three 'fellowships' in this general area, and the architecture ranges from a very modest old 1700's building to something rather modern.

UUs are probably the most gay-tolerant, even gay-friendly, groups around. In fact, at one of the fellowships, the minister is completely out, and has a partner, and is much beloved by the congregation, which includes a wide variety of families, farmers, execs and regular old middle class folk.

What is fascinating is the vitality of thinking and sharing that these people exemplify and consciously cherish.

Old premie-pride thinking, such as 'what could they possibly know about spirituality' just doesn't hold up. I like the Unitarian's attitudes. In the congregations and services I've witnessed, there is considerable back and forth discussion, right there in the middle of the service, and people are willing to engage in tackling uncomfortable issues. There isn't the sense that dogma is being dished out from on high, rather it's more like 'we are all in this together and it is up to us to arrive at the most enlightened view or solution.' Responsibility is key, quite Emersonian, I'd say.

Best,
Carl

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:07:23 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Emerson
Message:
When the Master of the universe has points to carry in his government he impresses his will in the structure of minds.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

hohoho

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:21:59 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: Emerson
Message:
''If a man write a better book, preach a better sermon, or make a better mouse-trap than his neighbour, tho' he build his house in the woods, the world will make a beaten path to his door.''
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 23:03:42 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: the New England Enlightenment
Message:
Actually I was just kidding because I have seen their buildings - usually quite unpretentious. I am a fan of the gentle, undogmatic christianity that sprang from the New England enlightenment such as New Thought and Science of Mind. Some people confuse it with New Age - but that's mostly eastern stuff like Maharajism.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:10:39 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I must be a Pagan...
Message:
I'm reading a splendid book by Alice Walker, Anything We Love Can Be Saved

It's a collection of essays and speaches.

The first essay is entitled ''The Only Reason You Want to Go to Heaven Is That You Have Been Driven Out of Your Mind (Off Your Land and Out of Your Lover's Arms) Clear Seeing Inherited Religion and Reclaiming the Pagan Self.''

The quote before the essay is this: ''Unto the woman God Said: I will greatly muliply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.'' - GENESIS

In the essay Walker describes her experience growing up in a large family who were sharecroppers in Georgia. She was brought up in the Methodist church but never felt 'Christian.' This is reflected in all of her works.

She worships the earth, Mother Earth. I wanted to pass on a few quotes in the essay that struck me.

''It is fatal to love a God who does not love you.''

''All people deserve to worship a God who also worships them. A God that made them, and likes them. That is why Nature, Mother Earth, is such a good choice.''

''Everyone deserves a God who adores our freedom: Nature would never advise us to do anything but be ourselves. Mother Earth will do all she can to support our choices. Whatever they are.''

''We begin to flow again...And out of that flowing comes the natural activism of wanting to survive, to be happy, to enjoy one another and life, and to laugh...We begin to distinguish between the need, singly, to throw rocks at whatever is oppressing us, and the creative joy that arises when we bring our collective stones of resistance against injustice together.''

''Pagan means ''of the land, country dweller, peasant.''

She's not speaking about new age wiccan paganism. Walker understands that her feet are on the ground. When I read this essay, I realized that since I became an ex-premie I have been lost spiritually and there is a need inside me to connect to something, but what?

It's the ground I walk upon and the trees and the animals. I don't dance naked in the woods (too many bugs)! I don't want to join a group of pagans. I want to live simply and worship the ground that I walk upon.

She also mentioned in another essay that the word 'sin' actually means 'to be.' I spent much of my day searching the net for the etymology of that word, but couldn't find a reference. I liked that though.

My life has always been that of being close to the earth, Mother Earth. It's a need I have that has never been satisfied by any religion, and especially, Maharajism.

I've had this book since it was published in 1997 and never read it. Some good does come out of unpacking boxes of books in a move.

Here's a poem of Alice Walker that I stumbled upon today:

We alone can devalue gold
by not caring
if it falls or rises
in the marketplace.
Wherever there is gold
there is a chain, you know,
and if your chain
is gold
so much the worse
for you.

Feathers, shells
and sea-shaped stones
are all as rare.

This could be our revolution:
to love what is plentiful
as much as
what's scarce.

Alice Walker (copyright)

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 02:19:57 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: nice thoughts: Alice Walker [that poem]
Message:
Here's a poem of Alice Walker that I stumbled upon today:

We alone can devalue gold
by not caring
if it falls or rises
in the marketplace.
Wherever there is gold
there is a chain, you know,
and if your chain
is gold
so much the worse
for you.

Feathers, shells
and sea-shaped stones
are all as rare.

This could be our revolution:
to love what is plentiful
as much as
what's scarce.

-- Alice Walker

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 00:22:28 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: I must be a Pagan...
Message:
Great stuff! I like the idea of being pagan as being a worshipper of mother earth. I always called that pantheism. Of course i worship the earth and all it's creatures but to me a gentle form of christian love is the answer to living in harmony in human society.
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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 21:40:30 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Pantheism='all the gods'
Message:
Okay so I'm showing off my classics bkgd ;)
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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 13:21:46 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Pantheism='all the gods'
Message:
Pantheism: all is god... everything is god.....the universe is god ....but not a personal god.

Actually doesn't mean much when you think about it....

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 14:09:53 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Pantheism='all the gods'
Message:
Actually Deborah is strictly correct (which I knew when I misused the word.) I misused it in the manner in which you describe it, Dermott.

Romans who believed in the whole Pantheon called themsleves pantheists in contrast to those who believed only in one or two gods.

But I do like the ''everything is god'' definition as it more closely describes belief systems such as refined Hinduism. It is more accurate than the term ''animism'' which was the basis for polytheism which is really what the Romans believed in and what uneduacted Hindus do.

Sometime during the 19th century pantheism (Byron and Shelley and other romantic poets redefined the word) came to mean ''everything is god.''

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 17:26:10 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Pantheism='all the gods'
Message:
Didn't know about the 19th cent/Romantic poets redefinition Pat.

Yep IF I actually believed in god I think the impersonal, inscrutable, mysterious EVERYTHING is god would be preferable to , say, that weird Old testament geezer full of wrath , vengeance and childish impetuous jealousy :)

BTW ....change of subject....so SF wasn't a target of the recent terroism. You know though, I had a very very vivd dream a few months ago ......I was in SF and looked down one of the hilly streets and a huge ginormous tidal wave was sweeping along really fast (and huge whales too !)..... I felt really panicky and rushed to a doorway convinced I was going to be swept up ....suddenley though I was on top of a very tall building ....out of danger looking at the mayhem and devastation.

I never did bother to to try and interpret it when I awoke :) But it did leave me feeling really affected.

Dermot with one T :)

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Date: Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 23:32:24 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: So, you've been to SF?
Message:
We've had two tsunami warnings in the twenty tears I've lived here. Everone rushed down to the beach and the surfers paddled out to sea hoping for the ultimate wave but each time it was a no-show. We don't have subduction quakes here like they do in Alaska so there is little likelyhood of a tsunami. I never ''interpret'' dreams. I regard them as hard disk clean up and defragmentation.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 13, 2001 at 04:17:10 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: So, you've been to SF?
Message:
Been to SF only in my astral form :)

I don't interpret dreams either .....hahah that's a good description 'hard disk clean up and defragmentation'

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 02:21:03 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: a la St. Francis of Assisi [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 19:58:34 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Susan
Subject: Re: My Intro - many thanks
Message:
and welcome to our little on-line party. Have fun and make lots of new friends.

Patrick Conlon

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 19:35:23 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: hello Susan
Message:
Nice seeing u around. Only one thing, we have another Susan [or two] and things may get confusing a bit. Otherwise do what you want, and watch out for them nasty cacas.
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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:00:42 (EDT)
From: Suedoula (Susan)
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: hello Susan
Message:
Thanks for the welcome! I amy just use my screen name which is suedoula -- see you soon!

Best,
Susan

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 18:43:59 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: For all the holacaust deniers
Message:
Sorry can not help this
here is one more.......

I`m talking about the mirror of life :
The true mirror .
Have we ever looked at ourselves in that ?
No.
We never have .
By Guru maharaj jis grace , we will find that
we are no more , than just a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny ,tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, very tiny speck of dust.
Nothing,,,,,,,,
And yet so incredible, that even the lord himself
comes for that tiny speck of dust .....

Guru Maharaj ji

Who is he talking about ?????

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 20:01:23 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Nice one, Ulf
Message:
he always talks about Maharaji or the Master in the third person but of course he also calls himself Maharaji. Maybe he has that multiple personality disorder.
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