JHB -:- Bush does something good! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:20:16 (EDT)

__ Nigel -:- Er, did he mention non-Americans..? [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:35:29 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- This must be repeated -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:44:29 (EDT)

Pauline Premie -:- My Submission -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:11:22 (EDT)

Marianne -:- San Francisco Memorial Services -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:05:45 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- Re: San Francisco Memorial Services -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:15:23 (EDT)

__ Katie -:- Thanks, Marianne - and something to read for all -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:07:32 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- Thanks Marianne -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:47:41 (EDT)

__ bill -:- Re: San Francisco Memorial Services -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:14:51 (EDT)

Zelda -:- 1 Astologer said 11 + 24 Sept = trouble -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:46:04 (EDT)

__ Katie -:- I HATE predictive astrology (Hi Zelda) [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:09:12 (EDT)

__ Jerry -:- Cute, Zelda -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:00:44 (EDT)

__ bill-christ zelda, -:- There is trouble in my life EVERYDAY [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:00:27 (EDT)

__ __ Zelda -:- oops. The 'other' kind . NT -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:50:51 (EDT)

Extra! Extra! Read all about it! -:- New cult apologist website -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:06:50 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- Wasting my time? I hope not. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:24:29 (EDT)

__ suedoula -:- Re: New cult apologist website -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:15:18 (EDT)

__ mercedes -:- sick -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:34:40 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Typical fluff, not even worth reading -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:18:29 (EDT)

__ __ Joe -:- Same silly nonsense -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:42:22 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- well it convinced me... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:31:18 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Typical fluff, not even worth reading -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:28:46 (EDT)

__ Oopsy daisy -:- Here's the link [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:09:38 (EDT)

__ __ Suzanne -:- How embarrassing -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:05:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: How embarrassing -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:25:12 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- It's fucking HILARIOUS -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:59:03 (EDT)

Selene -:- repost of link -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:23:11 (EDT)

__ ps -:- uh not what I meant -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:45:39 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- Taliban refuse to hand over bin Laden -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:20:38 (EDT)

__ Mel Bourne -:- Thats not all the Taliban have done..... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:42:17 (EDT)

__ __ such -:- Islamic clerics to decide bin Laden fate -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:24:42 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- SC's Post on Lifes (sic Great) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:58:46 (EDT)

__ sick of SC -:- here's one reference -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:39:28 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks...That was it... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:02:37 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- More chapters of 'The Sant mat' Book -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:10:00 (EDT)

__ Mili -:- Re: More chapters of 'The Sant mat' Book -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:13:35 (EDT)

__ __ And any practising Sikh -:- will tell you that 'Satguru' -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:25:10 (EDT)

Nigel -:- Armageddon worried now...(ot) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 11:12:25 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- The American Dilemma -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:17:26 (EDT)

__ __ Jerry -:- US foreign policy -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:30:50 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:56:42 (EDT)

__ __ a0aji -:- :: Hallowe'en Treaty :: -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:19:22 (EDT)

__ __ Rick -:- Troops mass on Afghan border -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:10:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ Rick -:- Sorry... here... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:11:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Rick -:- damn -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:12:23 (EDT)

__ creativejani -:- Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:52:10 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Conspiracy thinking like this is stupid -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:26:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Take Jim with a grain of salt or alum maybe Jani -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:01:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're being offensive too, Gerry -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:07:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: You're being offensive too, Gerry -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:28:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Where'd that come from? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:36:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Jim two questions -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:23:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ CNN -:- Re: You're being offensive too, Gerry -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:39:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- absolutamente (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:46:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- War is Business -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:22:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- In this case war is religion -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:26:49 (EDT)

__ Katie -:- Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:14:29 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Look at it another way -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 11:43:00 (EDT)

__ __ creativejani -:- Re: Look at it another way -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:02:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Intelligence is the best answer -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:35:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- America waking up -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:33:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Airport Security -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:39:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Airport Security -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:56:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Airport Security -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:04:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- What Gets Me the Most -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:12:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: What Gets Me the Most -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:44:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- True, Rick -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:49:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's pretty strong language, Joe -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:19:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- They knew about it? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:31:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: They knew about it? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:37:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Jim said they knew in 1993 -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:45:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Jim said they knew in 1993 -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:51:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- last time I flew -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:00:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Your pomposity is gross -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:32:32 (EDT)

Mail Carrier -:- Milli at LIG -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:31:57 (EDT)

Timmi -:- sore tongue -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:59:32 (EDT)

SILVIA -:- Please FA, BLOCK SC nt -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:35:08 (EDT)

Disculta -:- Maharaji's offering re tragedy -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:08:57 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- Nauseating -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:28:29 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Check out his cult member's response -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:58:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: Check out his cult member's response -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:06:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Amen! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:51:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- I can't resist it! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:07:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Glad you couldn't resist it! [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:09:13 (EDT)

__ salsa -:- how profund -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:38:34 (EDT)

Arjuna -:- M's bro (Satpal Ji Maharaj) writes Bush -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:30:18 (EDT)

__ Now's the time for the Malibu Rawat -:- to do some serious satsanging -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:41:51 (EDT)

__ __ [Blank] -:- Re: to do some serious satsanging -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:44:16 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- William Butler Yeats/Joni Mitchell -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:07:07 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Re: William Butler Yeats/Joni Mitchell -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:15:30 (EDT)

Kitty -:- The Hydra-headed Monster -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:58:54 (EDT)

__ Catweasel -:- Re: The Hydraulic- Pussy Monster -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:18:26 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: The Hydraulic- Pussy Monster -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:23:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ Catweasel -:- With Teeth!!!! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:00:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: With Teeth!!!! Uh uh - I'll pull them first -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:08:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: With Teeth!!!! Uh uh - I'll pull them first -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:56:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JOhnT -:- Did you sue? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:35:55 (EDT)

__ Ex-Tex -:- Re: The Hydra-headed Monster -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:05:15 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Dear Kitty... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:45:33 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Dear Kitty... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:29:57 (EDT)

__ Pussyweasel -:- Conspiracy theories -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:52:41 (EDT)

__ __ SC -:- I wuz gonna say the same thing... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:56:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ Silvia -:- what you posted on LG -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:49:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ SILVIA -:- FA, please BLOCK SC -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:22:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: I wuz gonna say the same thing... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:36:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- LEAVE PAT ALONE, You... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:09:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yeah, SC, I mean it! -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:11:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- you mean nothing Cynthia -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:28:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- It's cold, cruel words like that, David -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:42:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- And Cynthia's words? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:56:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ complete contempt -:- Re: And Cynthia's words? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:36:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You are so enlightened... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:34:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- SC you are cruel and sadistic [nt] -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:39:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Make up your mind girl! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:00:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Miss PWK -:- Nyah, nyah, nyah - PatC has posted -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:28:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you are a fake and a phony -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:15:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Super Creep !! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:09:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Re: Super Creep -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:58:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Super Creep -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:14:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- SC, You are a sadistic follower... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:59:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- No cynthia - sado-masochistic -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:00:06 (EDT)

salam -:- what is happening in Pakistan. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:58:10 (EDT)

__ cq -:- Pakistani president now to visit CHINA for talks! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:48:03 (EDT)

__ Jerry -:- Re: what is happening in Pakistan. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:38:51 (EDT)

__ __ [Blank] -:- Re: what is happening in Pakistan. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:06:54 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- military update -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:22:19 (EDT)

__ [Blank] -:- Re: what is happening in Pakistan. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:03:14 (EDT)

__ __ salam -:- Behind the news. Scary shit. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:47:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Behind the news. Scary shit. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:05:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Salam... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:17:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Yes that is scary shit -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:30:09 (EDT)

Deborah -:- BBC Chief Sorry Over Anti-US TV Audience -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:10:16 (EDT)

__ JohnT -:- shouting at the ambassador -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:53:38 (EDT)

__ Peter Howie -:- Re: BBC Chief Sorry Over Anti-US TV Audience -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:46:23 (EDT)

__ PatD -:- Yeah I had to turn it off.... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:13:58 (EDT)

__ __ PatD -:- Re: Yeah I had to turn it off.... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:31:46 (EDT)

Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:20:16 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: All Subject: Bush does something good! Message:

I caught the end of a news item where Bush was in a mosque saying quite clearly that Moslems were not the enemies of the USA, and that Americans should not turn against other Americans. I am quite astounded to say 'Well done that man'. John.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:35:29 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: None To: JHB Subject: Er, did he mention non-Americans..? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:44:29 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Nigel Subject: This must be repeated Message:

I think so, but I'd just switched channels. I'm pretty sure that he said that Islam is NOT the enemy. I was impressed, and really didn't expect to be so. Others must have seen this, and it will no doubt be repeated, so can anyone confirm what Bush said? John.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:11:22 (EDT) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: All Subject: My Submission Message:

There is a keen new website that really must make all you ex-premies feel small. All the people there are very successful, groovy people, and they have answered all your false allegations once and for all. I am blissed out, and really feeling that love, that peace, that truth and that experience. On the website, those students asked us to make submissions: 'What negative allegations being made about Maharaji and Knowledge do you most disagree with and why?' What do I MOST disagree with? Well, I think somebody said that Maharaji spoke 48 languages, and that when he was a kid somebody was using microphones to fake his speeches. Those are laughable and really lies. I really disagree with that. Also, I don't think Maharaji ever bombed any buildings, nor did he fly planes into skyscrapers. I really disagree with those lies, too. Oh, yeah, somebody said Maharaji didn't wear condoms when he had sex with his mistress. I really doubt that. Maharaji is very, very clean. And the one time I was around him, he was super, super nice, ya know? Thanks for this nifty website. Pauline Premie.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:05:45 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: All Subject: San Francisco Memorial Services Message:

I just returned home from a memorial service for all who died and were lost last Tuesday in NY, Pennsylvania, and at the Pentagon. This was billed as a way for San Franciscans to join together as a city to share our grief, and remember those who died. It was held in the Bill Graham Auditorium in the Civic Center -- right across from City Hall. The place was packed to the rafters, and there was a large crowd outside who were unable to get in. The service was opened by a Muslim cleric saying a prayer in Arabic. He was followed by a Rabbi from one of the local temples. On the stage were the Mayor, both California senators, the governor, prominent local clergy members, and governmental leaders. One area right in front of the stage seemed to be designated for members of the Muslim communities. Although there was some saber rattling, the message echoed by most of the speakers was that San Francisco is a place of tolerance and understanding, and that we should extend ourselves to our Middle Eastern neighbors at this time, and condemn violence against them. Senators Boxer and Feinstein gave awards to representatives of the families of Thomas Glick and Mark Bingham, 2 of the people who are credited with having brought down the United flight in Pennsylvania, thwarting the terrorists' plans. Mark Bingham's award was received by his partner -- I did not catch his name. He gave a heart-rending speech about Mark, and his heroism. The speeches by these folks were the ones which affected me the most. There was just as much talk about peace as about war, even here in leftist San Francisco. I worry about the times in front of us. Marianne

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:15:23 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: San Francisco Memorial Services Message:

Hi Marianne, I caught the speech by the young Muslim woman (on TV) at the SF event. It was very moving. I gather she wouldn't have been able to speak like that in Afghanistan.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:07:32 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Thanks, Marianne - and something to read for all Message:

Thanks, Marianne - I don't usually even read 'forwards', but my mom sent me this (I know you'll appreciate the irony, but this has brought us closer together - which can't be bad!) I work with several people from the Middle East, and I have just been trying to be really nice to them, but this gave me more ideas about talking about the situation - and giving them help if they are harassed. Love, Katie Forwarded message: Dear Americans, I stopped for gas yesterday at my usual service station. It was unusual to find all of the pumps available, but I didn't think much of it until I went inside to pay my bill. Then it dawned on me - the owner is an Arab. Every time I have been there he and another swarthy man have been engaged in animated conversation in a language so foreign to me that I am unable to decipher even an isolated word, but yesterday he was alone. He has never been particularly friendly during our transactions, but rather aloof and abrupt. No small talk. No cheery, 'Have a nice day.' Just a small business owner doing his job. In light of Tuesday's events and the concerns of backlash targeting innocent people, I made a conscious and insistent effort to engage him in conversation. He was not inclined to answer my questions, clearly suspicious of my motives. Finally I related to him that I had spent 3 months traveling over land across the Middle East and would never forget an incident that occurred in Baghdad. It was an incredibly hot day - 120 degrees F, I was later told - and so arid that body fluids were sucked out of pores so aggressively that sweat never formed, so one did not even notice the loss. I had run out of water and was unaware of the severity of my escalating dehydration and hyperthermia, only of the pounding headache that was fogging my mind. While crossing a major road in the heart of the city, I lost consciousness and crumpled to the pavement. The next thing I knew I was seated on a bench, propped up on both sides by passersby, and a man was holding a bottle of lemonade to my mouth, encouraging me to drink. These Iraquis could not have been more kind or solicitous if they had been my own family. More drinks arrived for me. One was a glass of water, but the fellow who had apparently carried me from the street pushed it away, conveying to me that this water would not be safe for me to drink. They would not allow me to compensate them for what they had spent on my behalf, though they were clearly people who did not have money to spare. This incident occurred prior to the Persian Gulf War. During the bombing of Baghdad my thoughts dwelled on the individuals who had been so kind to me, hoping that they, their families, and decent human beings like them were safe from harm. But throughout those days I knew that they were all enduring horror they did not deserve. The demeanor of the service station owner underwent a noticeable change. He finally confided that his business has fallen off sharply and that his family, while not receiving overt threats, are being treated with thinly disguised hostility and distrust. They are afraid for their long-term safety and livelihood. I assured the man that I would continue to patronize his establishment and would encourage others to do so. I gave him my name and phone number in case he and his family need help. I will check in on him weekly and will do whatever I can to support them. The point of this letter is to urge that while we mobilize to vanquish terrorism, we do not simultaneously become terrorists ourselves. It is not enough to avoid being cruel, leaving those at risk vulnerable to those who are vindictive. We must, as individuals, take action and seize the opportunity to befriend and protect people around us who are likely to be unfairly targeted by ignorance and bigotry. This is a superb opportunity for all of us to educate ourselves about cultures and beliefs we know little about - Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and others. What ARE the teachings of the Koran? How many of us know? Resist the temptation to criticize cultures that 'create' monsters like the ones who perpetrated this week's bombings. Our own culture has suckled more than its share of monsters - Charles Manson, Richard Speck, Jeffrey Dahmer, Tim McVeigh - the list is long. Remember that evil is not a cultural attribute, but a behavioral choice made by individuals. Also resist the temptation to promote your spiritual beliefs as superior. To do so would be the most profound manifestation of disrespect and the kind of insolence that contributed to the climate resulting in the current situation. Be open to the value of new thoughts and ideas. My hope is that everyone who reads this message will seek out and befriend an individual or a family of Middle Eastern origin or descent. The years ahead promise to be frightening for all of us. Being at war with a vague, undefined enemy means being fearful of everyone. Give yourself the gift of understanding who is NOT your enemy. Respectfully, Dr. Sherie Zahn If you believe this message to be of value, please pass it on.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:47:41 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Thanks Marianne Message:

I heard about the memorial, but I wasn't able to go. I guess Bingham called his mother and said he and some other passengers were going to 'do something' because they were going to die anyway. I guess they did. I have heard conflicting statements that the plane was bound for Camp David, the Capitol and the White House. (No one has mentioned Air Force One, except Ari Fletcher, the Bush's Press Secretary).

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:14:51 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: San Francisco Memorial Services Message:

Hi Marianne, Last week my sister had a dinner for her freinds, a couple and thier 2 little girls, coincidentally the 2 girls were the same age and long time best freinds of my nieces, I have certainly heard about -Zoey- from my niece more than a few times. The next day they boarded the plane for Australia for thier vacation. That was the reason for the dinner, to bon voyage them. It was the plane that went into the Pentagon.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:46:04 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: All Subject: 1 Astologer said 11 + 24 Sept = trouble Message:

but I dont want to talk about it.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:09:12 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Zelda Subject: I HATE predictive astrology (Hi Zelda) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:00:44 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Zelda Subject: Cute, Zelda Message:

But let's not talk about it.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:00:27 (EDT) From: bill-christ zelda, Email: None To: Zelda Subject: There is trouble in my life EVERYDAY [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:50:51 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: bill-christ zelda, Subject: oops. The 'other' kind . NT Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:06:50 (EDT) From: Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Email: None To: All Subject: New cult apologist website Message:

Authored by: David Andersen Erika Andersen Mitch Ditkoff Bob Johnson [ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:24:29 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Subject: Wasting my time? I hope not. Message:

I've written to their feedback address asking them to tell me what are the inaccuracies on EPO and to provide a link on their site to EPO so that readers can make up their own minds. I said that Erika and David seemed reasonable people when they posted on the ex-premie forum so I hoped that my request will be treated with respect. John.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:15:18 (EDT) From: suedoula Email: None To: Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Subject: Re: New cult apologist website Message:

Wow -- I have been wondering where Erika and David have been! I lived with Erika in the Atlanta ashram for several years back in the middle 70s. David and his then wife lived across from me in an apartment complex I lived in before I moved in to the Ashram. For what it's worth, in my premie life, I loved them both. Is that ok to admit here? Life is so odd where it takes you, isn't it? I feel so very far away from all that, maybe it was just a dream. When I stopped considering myself a follower of M it was because I couldn't justify in my mind that all I had been told of who M was wasn't true. I couldn't turn it off and I couldn't understand why all of a sudden the rules had changed on me. Despite the fact the I had lost so many productive years of my life, I don't remember feeling anger -- I just picked up and moved on. Maybe it was because I had been stepping out of Ashram life a little at a time before I physically moved out. Then life on the outside presented me with so many other options and challenges that I barely noticed how far away I had managed to get without missing anything. Before I knew it, it wasn't a part of my life and I didn't give too much of a backwards glance. I admit that I have regrets and anger these days -- much further away from it than I was at the true moment of departure -- but because time has passed and I have gotten on with things, it's not something I think of too often. But I am digressing from why I wanted to post on this -- one of the reasons I don't feel my life as a premie was a total waste was all those people I came to know and love in the various communities I lived in. Maybe I should be angry and resentful of them as well but I think of so many of them often, fondly, and wonder where they are and what path has life presented to them. It is still a small world and maybe I will meet some of them again. So, anyway, thanks for the link -- maybe it gave me a little closure. Best to all, Susan

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:34:40 (EDT) From: mercedes Email: None To: Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Subject: sick Message:

These people clearly don't care about what's going in the world right now. All they can think about is their guru how sick is that?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:18:29 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Subject: Typical fluff, not even worth reading Message:

This is getting old already. The cult members puttting up these pathetic sites but afraid to openly discuss their opinions. So we have the ridiculousness of Erika Andersen, for example, writing a post called 'Just the facts .. sort of'. Yawn ... I can assure this crew that this kind of effort speaks volumes but not to say what they think it says. Hardly. Fact is, Maharaji's cult is falling apart. Sadly, I think the Islamic extremist jihad is going to have a further harsh effect on recruitment.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:42:22 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Same silly nonsense Message:

All the bad stuff about Maharaji being God, worship and total deveotion and all, just sort of 'happened' and Maharaji had nothing to do with it, according to the implications of the Andersen twins and Mr. Ditkoff. Amazing. You know, that Hindu stuff just sort of 'happened' or was caused by US in our youthful zeal. How many times, ad nauseum, have we heard this implication, once again without actually saying it, because, well, that would be an out and out lie, before? Too many to count, I'm afraid. I just wish there could be something to add to the conversation by what these people are saying, except to just repeat the same old, tired, empty, excuses and rationalizations. Plus, everybody they know came through the Lord of the Universe Ashram period just fine, so, hey, what's the problem? I mean, they say they came out okay, right? Manipulative theories and evidence, to be sure, and apparently no need to address what happened to others who didn't fare so well. And as for Maharaji having sex with his female followers, well, according to Ms. Andersen, that's just a little marital problem, and we have all probably have had them. No big deal that Maharaji is a supposed holy man, worshipped by his followers at the time he was having sex with them. I mean, Bill Clinton had marital problems, too. I do appreciate Erika's comment that Maharaji 'should' say something about how he screwed up the ashram situation. That's unusual for a premie to say anything like that, but she continues in her manipulative comments, saying that since people might not 'accept' his apology, that he probably is justified in not giving it. Of course, as we all know, apologies are only required, from regular, responsible adults that is, if you know in advance it will be accepted. Everybody knows that. I hope that isn't what Erika teaches to her kids.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:31:18 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: well it convinced me... Message:

Thank gawd the door is always open. It's back to the lotus toes for me! Now I got this from my new favortite website and I want all you to complete the following asignment, class. PleaseConsiderThis.com invites you to share your thoughts and feelings in 100 words or less about the following question: 'What negative allegations being made about Maharaji and Knowledge do you most disagree with and why?'

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:28:46 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Typical fluff, not even worth reading Message:

I couldn't get past the first page when I saw it on LG. Too silly.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:09:38 (EDT) From: Oopsy daisy Email: None To: Extra! Extra! Read all about it! Subject: Here's the link [nt] Message:

[ Cult Apologists ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:05:36 (EDT) From: Suzanne Email: None To: Oopsy daisy Subject: How embarrassing Message:

I can't believe they would write those things. They are so transparent and ridiculous. I particularly love the way Erika explains things in her smarmy "reasonable" tone. She uses her kids and her marriage as examples that are just so reasonable and simple, metaphors for how Maharaji and knowledge are, just like the way Erika did when she gave satsang years ago, and it sounds just as ridiculous. So little has changed. We can all do it: Things evolve. You know, my relationship with my dining room funiture isn't the same today as it was 30 years ago. Then, I thought it was wonderful, all-powerful, and capable of bringing me eternal happiness. I loved my furniture as my savior. But, of course, relationships change; they evolve. Sometimes, now, I think how silly I was to think those things about my furniture, but I loved it and I was having a wonderful time sitting on the glorious, and supremely all-powerful side chairs. But now, I love my furniture more than ever, and I love it especially because my relationship with it has evolved, so that now I think my furniture is so much better than if it was really bringing peace to the world like the label said when I bought it. I know and love it more. I'm not sorry I bought the furniture, nor that I believed it was the messiah. Isn't it just silly of people who want to hold their dining room furniture to the standards of 30 years ago? So what does this have to do with Maharaji? In the same way that I still love my dining room furniture, and have evolved in my relationship to it, my relationship with Maharaji has also evolved. Just forget about all that stuff he said about being the superior power in person, rotting vegetables, the ashram and devotion and surrender and the decade or so you wasted living poor and celibate in his ashram pursuing that because he told you to, and you listened and did it because you believed he was the messiah. If it had any negative effect on your life because you believed what he said, it's all because it was all just so confusing then, and I don't want to get into the specifics, because, well, it's confusing to me, and it's just part of natural evolution, just like my relationship with my side board. So, in contrast to what all those ex-owners of dining room furniture have said, the ones who didn't evolve, I really want to give the other side of the story. And I'm sure you are very impressed with how reasonable, non-cult-like, and insightful I am, and with my ability to use simile and metaphor to explain-away the many things Maharaji did and said that made us believe he was god. And I'm sure you're especially impressed with this coming from someone like me, who is a happy and successful wife and mother, not to mention fantastically successful in business, smart, happy and interesting, living a storybook life, all of which I have repeated on many occasions on the Forum and now on my new website, so you should know well. Erika (the reasonable person and who apparently didn't get any answers from Maharaji about his drinking, sexual exploitation and the like, but she still loves him) Andersen

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:25:12 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: Re: How embarrassing Message:

''So what does this have to do with Maharaji? In the same way that I still love my dining room furniture, and have evolved in my relationship to it, my relationship with Maharaji has also evolved. Just forget about all that stuff he said about being the superior power in person, rotting vegetables, the ashram and devotion and surrender and the decade or so you wasted living poor and celibate in his ashram pursuing that because he told you to, and you listened and did it because you believed he was the messiah. If it had any negative effect on your life because you believed what he said, it's all because it was all just so confusing then, and I don't want to get into the specifics, because, well, it's confusing to me, and it's just part of natural evolution, just like my relationship with my side board. So, in contrast to what all those ex-owners of dining room furniture have said, the ones who didn't evolve, I really want to give the other side of the story. And I'm sure you are very impressed with how reasonable, non-cult-like, and insightful I am, and with my ability to use simile and metaphor to explain-away the many things Maharaji did and said that made us believe he was god. And I'm sure you're especially impressed with this coming from someone like me, who is a happy and successful wife and mother, not to mention fantastically successful in business, smart, happy and interesting, living a storybook life, all of which I have repeated on many occasions on the Forum and now on my new website, so you should know well. '' Wow. I hope this person was on some serious drugs when she wrote that and not like this all the time. She has to be kidding. Are these people for real? Don't they know what fools they appear? Good grief. This is a bit sick.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:59:03 (EDT) From: gerry Email: gkl1@techline.com To: Oopsy daisy Subject: It's fucking HILARIOUS Message:

And the funniest part is the authors somehow think they are going to shore up the shaky faithful or explain away the bizzareness of the whole thing to new fish. Ain't gonna happen kids. Anything RawRat and his proxies do on the net dooms them to scrutiny which they can not stand. The EX sites, being far more popular and well read, are always right there in their faces.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:23:11 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: All Subject: repost of link Message:

While reading and responding to Annie in a thread way below I was reminded of how this site RAWA impressed me. I think Salam posted it first but am not sure. Whether anyone agrees with the contents or not I think it brings home the reality of innocent people being killed.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:45:39 (EDT) From: ps Email: None To: Selene Subject: uh not what I meant Message:

Obviously the reality of innocent people being killed has been brought home! What I meant to say is innocents being victims, wherever they live.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:20:38 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: bananas@freeatlast.com To: All Subject: Taliban refuse to hand over bin Laden Message:

Taliban Refuse to Hand Over Bin Laden, Report Says September 17, 2001 9:54 am EST By David Fox ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (Reuters) - Senior Pakistani officials failed Monday to persuade the Taliban's reclusive leader Mullah Mohammad Omar to hand over Saudi-born terror suspect Osama bin Laden to avert U.S. armed retaliation, the AIP news agency said. The Pakistan-based Afghan Islamic Press quoted Taliban spokesman Abdul Hai Mutamaen saying that over three hours of talks between the sides had not resolved the key issue of turning over the multi-millionaire Islamic militant accused of involvement in the September 11 terror attacks on the United States. 'The meeting looked in detail at the aspects of the problem. The talks were positive but I cannot give the details,' Mutamaen said. 'We are 60 percent hopeful that conditions will be normal.' But on bin Laden, who the Taliban have termed a 'guest,' Mutamaen reported no progress: 'There was no clear discussion on this particular topic.' The Pakistan delegation arrived early in the morning in the southern city of Kandahar and went immediately into talks with Taliban Foreign Minister Mullah Maulawi Wakil Ahmad Muttawakil. The Pakistani officials, including intelligence chief General Mahmood Ahmed, won permission from the United Nations to break a ban on flights to Afghanistan to try to convince the landlocked country's purist Islamic rulers of the gravity of their situation. 'The delegation is motivating and advising Mullah Omar and the Taliban leadership that they should consider the pros and cons of not cooperating with America and others on matters of terrorism...,' Interior Minister Moinuddin Haider said during a visit to Kuwait. 'Because if Afghanistan does not do the logical, balanced attitude in this regard it will be a problem for Afghanistan and its people,' he said. The Taliban have previously refused all demands to hand over bin Laden -- the chief suspect in Tuesday's devastating terror attacks on New York and Washington -- saying proof of his involvement in the terror is a prerequisite. The United States has vowed to punish the perpetrators and all those who protect them. Bin Laden Sunday again denied any involvement. 'I have taken an oath of allegiance (to Mullah Omar) which does not allow me to do such things from Afghanistan,' he said in a statement faxed by an aide to the Afghan Islamic Press. Pakistan is one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban government and was a key backer of the purist Islamic movement as it swept to power in the mid-1990s, taking most of the country and ending two decades of civil war. PAKISTAN PROMISES TO COOPERATE Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has promised to cooperate fully with the United States in its fight against global terror. 'We are alive to the gravity of the situation and know that in the lives of nations such situations do arise as require the taking of important decisions,' the official APP news agency quoted him as saying Sunday before his mission left. The Pakistani diplomatic mission is a last-ditch appeal to the Taliban to try to avert what Washington has vowed will be retaliation by a 'mighty giant' awakened by the world's worst terror attack. Military sources told Reuters that the delegation included General Mahmood Ahmed, the head of the country's intelligence service that is regarded as one of the creators of the Taliban. He had been in Washington when the terror attacks took place. The Pakistan diplomacy coincides with a call by Mullah Omar for a war council in Kabul of Islamic clerics to discuss the defense of Afghanistan in the event of U.S. attacks. Mullah Omar has already said the Taliban would declare a jihad, or holy war, against the United States if it attacked and also against any country that gives Washington assistance. In a sign of mounting nervousness among the purist Taliban, the movement appealed at the weekend to the Organization for Islamic Conference (OIC) and Muslim states for help in case of an attack by the United States, a Taliban official in Kandahar told Reuters. APPEAL FOR HELP The decision to appeal for help from the OIC was taken at a special meeting of the Supreme Council of the Taliban convened in Kandahar late Saturday with the reclusive Omar in the chair. The OIC does not recognize the Taliban. 'We should unite against our enemies who want to crush us because we are Muslim,' the official quoted Omar as saying. Monday, Taliban officials began fleeing the capital Kabul amid growing expectations of U.S. attacks. They were seen heading out of the city for the countryside, but it was not clear if this was under instructions from Mullah Omar. In off-the-record briefings Sunday, Pakistan's president said the U.S. could base its troops either in Pakistan or neighboring Afghanistan, a source told Reuters. In addition, it was possible U.S. ships would want access to Pakistan's coast to reach landlocked Afghanistan, a request Islamabad would be able to meet, the source said. Musharraf, who seized power in a bloodless coup in October 1998, has still not fully consolidated his grip on the country and has to juggle carefully the interests of various political and religious groups. 'The president is aware that whatever he is going to do will create some problems for Pakistan and he may see a reaction from the general public,' said Hamid Meer, editor of Aussas (Foundation) newspaper.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:42:17 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Thats not all the Taliban have done..... Message:

Debka headlines.... Afghanistan Aligns Army Along Pakistan Frontier and Points Scud Missiles at Pakistani Cities. Also... Special American CIA and FBI Units Are Positioned Along Pakistani-Afghan Border.... Iranian Units Deploy on its Border with Afghanistan Russia Bolsters Forces on Tadjik-Afghan Frontier... Ladies and gentleman, please take your places for the dance....

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:24:42 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Islamic clerics to decide bin Laden fate Message:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134342699_pakistan17.html [ http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134342699_pakistan17.html ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:58:46 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: All Subject: SC's Post on Lifes (sic Great) Message:

On Sept. 13th SC posted this on LG: Subj.: There more to exes than being an EX I've just read three posts from what almost seems the innappropriatly named 'ex-premie forum' at his time. I appreciated them very much. I say that because in my opinion they are some of the most intelligent, insightful and downright convincing assessments of the world situation post Sept 11th. I won't go into why I heartily agree with John T's clarity ('America's Agony' ) or tip my hat to Pat C's (Settling the world affairs) astounding and brilliant grasp of the international situation or even dermott's (For fuck's sake Scott!) emotional but amusing response to Scott's post. I'd just like to say that anyone interested in what may or may not happen in the coming weeks and months, read those posts. These guys have provided me with far greater nsights in 15 minutes than I've gotten from atching CNN and the local newshounds debate with experts all over the world about the crisis for the last two days. The thread is headed..'After the terror: Silence.' No matter what, this is a time for lovers of peace and harmony to unite, no matter what their belief system embraces or rejects. I was just wondering what gives SC the authority and audacity to invite premies here. My response to SC was based on a clearly homophobic post which I now cannot find within that thread, which was directed against PatC, who was the author of that original thread SC recommended to the premies. I know this will post will probably instigate a response, but I will not respond to SC anymore. He has proven over and over again that once he gets involved in discussion here, and someone disagrees, he lashes out in mean and hurtful words. It was to the to the homophobic post about Pat that I responded in kind. I don't post on LG, but I went there on Friday to post the email about lighting candles, for any premies who might want to pass the message on. It was then that I noticed his complimentary invitation for premies to come here. And come they have. So, if I offended by my own reaction to SC and the others such as Millie, Catweasal and the anonymous trolls, I apologize. To SC I do not apologize. What he said in his words, (and I cannot find the post) was clearly homophobic. Then, because he supported my posts regarding my feminist views, he thought that I would ally myself to him. I don't even know this person's name. And I certainly will not be responding to any of his posts in the future. Some nerve, IMO, for SC to invite premies here to read the intellectual analysis of the tragic events of last week, giving us a backhanded compliment. This is, afterall, the expremie forum. I simply wanted to explain what triggered my reaction. I'm not an even tempered person, and I don't apologize for that. Especially because I am quite afraid of what is happening in the world today, my emotions are raw. Also, it is especially scarry living in the northeast, 6 hours away from NYC. That's all I have to say about this. It doesn't make me feel good, believe me, to say hurtful words, but when I am provoked that sometimes happens. And I know I am not the only one here who reacts that way to premies who come here making troubles. Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:39:28 (EDT) From: sick of SC Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: here's one reference Message:

Here ya go: SC in response to Annie PatC answered you and I agree with him. While more sarcastic and cutting in nature than homophobic it does mirror the style of a few other premies who post as well as the CACas. Mirrors it exactly IMO. And I too have to wonder why this person thinks his/her opinions are so valued here. I don't think he cares, he just goes on and on and on no matter what. A fanatic. Why apologize? This person sneered at JHB for having feelings, then plays the martyr when you speak against him last night. I'd say we have much more serious issues right now. We are all easily triggered. Bullies like SC realize this and enjoy mucking things up. Ignoring him is a good way to go.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:02:37 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: sick of SC Subject: Thanks...That was it... Message:

I do think it was homophobic and distruptive and disturbing, especially from someone who claims to be a lover of truth and peace. I need to take a short break from the forum until my anxiety decreases. :)If I can resist. I'll be checking in to see what's going on. I've been triggered by the intense content here (and that's not a criticism at all), I also have much work to do that I've been neglecting. Why apologize? Because I don't like to be nasty to anyone, and it offends ME, to see that behavior come out, especially in response to someone who is so mean. Also, I'm usually in bed by 10pm EDT, and I've been spending way too much time here. Thanks again, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:10:00 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: More chapters of 'The Sant mat' Book Message:

Not that many facts, plain satsang .... The Fifth Master of Advait Mat Ideal Life SHRI SHRI 108 SHRI PARAM HANSA DAYAL JI (THE FIRST MASTER) SHRI SHRI 108 SHRI PARAMHANSA SADGURU DEV JI (THE SECOND MASTER) SHRI SHRI 108 SHRI PARAMHANSA SADGURU DEV JI (THE THIRD MASTER) SHRI SHRI 108 SHRI SADGURU DEV MAHARAJ JI (THE FOURTH MASTER) Mili ? Do you like it ? Still some more to come ... [ The 'Paramhansa Advait Mat' Book, page 660-683 ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:13:35 (EDT) From: Mili Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: More chapters of 'The Sant mat' Book Message:

Good work, J-M. Thanks. Now how about some stuff about Kabir, Guru Nanak, and the rest of the Sikh Connection? The Guru Granth Sahib is well worth looking into, you know. . Check this out: 'The love and Pleasure of the Satguru is the sole delight and charm of a true sikh. Such a love smitten Sikh can kick aside all the kingdoms of earth and heaven for the pleasure of the Beloved Satguru.' [ Sri Guru Granth Sahib ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:25:10 (EDT) From: And any practising Sikh Email: None To: Mili Subject: will tell you that 'Satguru' Message:

refers to the all-pervading spirit of life(or God). Not a living human human being which is considered idle-worship. People like your maharaji and all the other RahdaSoami cults have poisened Sihkism as others have poisened Islam. Satnam

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 11:12:25 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: All Subject: Armageddon worried now...(ot) Message:

The pressure on the US administration to exact revenge was underlined by a public opinion poll which showed that 84% of Americans supported military retaliation. Two-thirds of them would support it 'even if it means many thousands of innocent civilians may be killed'. (See link)[my emphases] The article is somewhat ambiguous whether the 'two-thirds' refers to two-thirds of Americans or two-thirds of the 84% (ie. 56% of total), but either way, this is not good. In fact, this is very, very ugly... It seems these polled individuals would allow happen to thousands of innocent civilians that which they so graphically observed happen in New York to their own innocent civilians. That further terrorist massacres should be carried out, but this time in their own names? Let's make some buildings tumble, crushing babes and orphaning children? Americans really don't mind that sort of thing after all..? Really? For fuck's sake, how could they...? (and I am not being anti-American - I suspect a British poll might show similar percentage.) I mean, what is it about people that they can be simultaneously shocked, sickened and outraged by the inhumanity of terrorism whilst demonstrating a similar inhumanity towards the well-being of others? And this is isn't merely a morality issue. What further 'retaliation' might arise from any US-led coalition's 'retaliation'? A new generation of suicidal fundamentalists with enough biological nasties in a brief case to wipe out San Francisco or London, perhaps? A high-jacked plane dive-bombing a nuclear power station? The FBI and CIA were clearly powerless to foresee or prevent last week's attacks. Why should we assume they could prevent the above scenarios? Both are certainly possible. 'Murphy's Law' approximately states that 'anything which can go wrong, will sooner or later go wrong'. You could add a sub-clause to the effect that 'anything which it is humanly possible to do - no matter how sick, depraved or insane - someone, somewhere will eventually do, give the right opportunity and motivation.' I sincerely hope this survey reflects no more than heat-of-the-moment opinion, and that US politicians will not accept it as a mandate for careless or random mass-murder. That way lies Armageddon, folks. Sorry for all the question marks. But this is depressing. [ Two thirds don't mind a spot of revenge slaughter... ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:17:26 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Nigel Subject: The American Dilemma Message:

Nigel, I agree with Katie that those polls don't mean very much. I think as people realize what might be involved, those numbers, as well as Bush's approval ratings, with drop. Bush doesn't come accross as very inspiring to me. He is going to have to get VERY specific about exactly what he plans to do before the American people will be willing to risk casualties, as well as more terrorist attacks. So far, it's just a lot of war talk and some of it would just be silly if it weren't so frightening. For example, Bush's statement that the people who did the attack are "against freedom" or other things I've heard that they hate us because we are "the infadel" and that it has nothing to do with US foreign policy are both ridiculously simplistic. Hopefully, we will get a little more thoughtful about this as time goes on, although the American people don't know much about what is going on in the rest of the world, and we have this distorted image of ourselves as always innocent and righteous. For example, we still haven't dealt with what we did in Vietnam because it's so counter to the image we have of ourselves. Since Bin Laden is the current evil enemy, there will probably be a lot of effort to get him, but I doubt we will be able to, and even if they do, that's just the beginning. If the Taliban won't turn him over, and I'm sure they won't, then the Bush administration will want to bomb Afghanistan. But of course, 99% of the Afghans have nothing to do with Bin Laden and are just as innocent as the victims in New York. Plus, Afghanistan is extremely impoverished, from years and years of war, and a drought that has been going on for 7 years. Any such attack will make the USA even more hated, and will likely result in more terrorist attacks on the multitude of visible American targets all over the world. And then, there is the problem of the Russians and the Chinese and whether they will respond in some way. I think the US military thinks it might have an easier time of it, because there will be no 'superpower' on the other side. In Vietnam, the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong were supplied by the USSR. I think the Pentagon is currently deluding itself into thinking that because of the lack of a major power supporting the other side, that it won't be another Vietnam. But I think that's delusion, both because of the possibility of the Chinese or the Russians being freaked about US troops and power on their borders, but also because of the nature of Afghanistan. Plus, the 'power' on the other side might not be a government, but Islamic fundamentalists from around the world. Since the US, other than Pearl Harbor which was pretty remote in 1941, hasn't really been attacked on its homeland since the Civil War, it remains to be seen how long the public will sustain the war fervor. One final note. The model for responding to terrorism with assassination, military action and the like is Israel. Israel has been responding in that way for many years, and the acts of terrorism have just increased. They have not been successful, and unless something happens in the realm of peace negotiations, Israel can expect terrorist bombings and the like forever. Not a very encouraging model for what Bush says he is going to do. Joe

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:30:50 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Joe Subject: US foreign policy Message:

Joe, You're a pretty informed guy. What, in US policy could cause the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism that we now see in the mideast that just absolutely despises everything American? Are you really so sure that it just isn't the way these people are, that their reaction to western influence isn't ridiculously extreme, insane even? What could we have possibly done to produce the likes of bin Laden and the Taliban? Are you sure their reasons for despising us aren't purely religious in nature? I'm not.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:56:42 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot) Message:

I think Americans are seeing this situation in terms of survival. The one's who aren't idiots (and that's a percentage very difficult to estimate) prefer to be as moral as possible but when it comes down to us or them who survive, it's going to be us. American's have never before felt their own personal safety is in danger. It's hard to get the information necessary to understand why and how the WTC bombings happened, and what can be done about it. So people feel even more insecure. As a result, they grasp for the most severe solution to make sure they're going to be safe. Add to the mix the prejudice against middle-easterners, and there's a tinge of 'well, most of them aren't innocent anyway'. And 'they may be innocent now, but they could become terrorists later'. Innocent casualties aren't new. Look at Hiroshima and Nagosaki. People accepted it, and they still accept it because they don't completely seperate a population from the actions of their military. In Vietnam, it was sometimes impossible to identify the soldiers. The same is probably true for Islamic terrorists. You're right, Nigel; this is depressing. Not only because innocent middle-easterners will die but because the carnage is likely not finished in the West.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:19:22 (EDT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Rick Subject: :: Hallowe'en Treaty :: Message:

And then Rick shawed us these salient remarks: I think Americans are seeing this situation in terms of survival. The one's who aren't idiots (and that's a percentage very difficult to estimate) prefer to be as moral as possible but when it comes down to us or them who survive, it's going to be us. American's have never before felt their own personal safety is in danger. It's hard to get the information necessary to understand why and how the WTC bombings happened, and what can be done about it. So people feel even more insecure. As a result, they grasp for the most severe solution to make sure they're going to be safe. Add to the mix the prejudice against middle-easterners, and there's a tinge of 'well, most of them aren't innocent anyway'. And 'they may be innocent now, but they could become terrorists later'. Innocent casualties aren't new. Look at Hiroshima and Nagosaki. People accepted it, and they still accept it because they don't completely seperate a population from the actions of their military. In Vietnam, it was sometimes impossible to identify the soldiers. The same is probably true for Islamic terrorists. You're right, Nigel; this is depressing. Not only because innocent middle-easterners will die but because the carnage is likely not finished in the West. --- I think people are waking up to the factoid that no place is safe from the use of weapons of mass-destruction, and that many such weapons may be deployed outside the scope of any treaty. We (the public) don't have any theory for the kind of warfare we now face, and that is one thing that is deeply frightening as we each attempt to theorize a defensive strategy. Well, we think the enemy is the only one willing to die for his/her cause, but of course that's not true. We think the enemy is the only one willing to inflict collateral damage and civilian casualties, but historically that's not been the case. It's Armageddon because the weapons are such -- it's always been that way; when you think about it, it is astonishing nobody (ha!) noticed that before. These events of the past two weeks are going to set off some really world-class paranoid thinking, but the body politic is unable to move at that speed, so there is some buffering there. Sooner or later the politicians in Washington, D.C. are going to notice that Congress *never* votes so unanimously and that something is seriously broken in the fundamentals of the political process -- that process has been completely suspended. This is like a jury that initially has only one dissenting vote, that over the course of many hours deliberation, only finds further dissent as others take heart and follow their conscience and join the minority opinion and make it their own (or, rather, stand on what they believe). Our (American) leadership has failed; all are of one mind, which is by definition suspect. The human condition does not allow it; it is a primary symptom of group dysfunction. When the anesthesia wears off, there are going to be many in Congress who are going to ask the immortal question: I drank *what*?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:10:13 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Rick Subject: Troops mass on Afghan border Message:

[ Page Link ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:11:38 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Rick Subject: Sorry... here... Message:

[ Page Link ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:12:23 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Rick Subject: damn Message:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/0109/18/world/world1.html [ Troops ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:52:10 (EDT) From: creativejani Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot) Message:

You say the FBI/CIA were clearly powerless...well, were they?Or does the excuse for war come in handy when the economy is going into recession - who benefits from war? The arms companies, those who want an excuse to enter foreign countries, those who want an excuse (the far right) to clamp down on citizen's freedoms...Nothing is as it seems, expecially with a weak President who can be pushed around. The best thing is to stop reading the newspapers (who are manipulating the strong emotions of us all towards war)and start thinking about who benefits from this situation. The way Hitler came to power in Germany was on the back of staged atrocities, beatings and lawlessness so that the he could promise a crack-down on those responsible (the Jews, gypsies etc)and thus establish his rule in what had been a republic. Those behind the president, industrialists,investors and so on, have alot to gain from war - ordinary people don't.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:26:49 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: creativejani Subject: Conspiracy thinking like this is stupid Message:

You say the FBI/CIA were clearly powerless...well, were they?Or does the excuse for war come in handy when the economy is going into recession - who benefits from war? The arms companies, those who want an excuse to enter foreign countries, those who want an excuse (the far right) to clamp down on citizen's freedoms...Nothing is as it seems, expecially with a weak President who can be pushed around. The best thing is to stop reading the newspapers (who are manipulating the strong emotions of us all towards war)and start thinking about who benefits from this situation. The way Hitler came to power in Germany was on the back of staged atrocities, beatings and lawlessness so that the he could promise a crack-down on those responsible (the Jews, gypsies etc)and thus establish his rule in what had been a republic. Those behind the president, industrialists,investors and so on, have alot to gain from war - ordinary people don't. --- This type of thinking is grossly offensive. It's also stupid. But that's never stopped conspiracy lovers before, has it? I wonder about you guys. Sometimes, not always, but often enough, I think conspiracy lovers show the signs of a lack of good education. Call me a snob but I think that's the case. Why? Because a decent education teaches people critical thinking, something missing in posts like yours. All you're doing is playing the silly game of asking yourself who might possibly benefit, no matter how indirectly, from an event and then, without any consideration of the millions of obstacles in the way, attributing the event to those 'beneficiaries'. You're a woman, right? A mom too? How would you like it if your child was killed and people started speculating that you were responsible because you wanted the insurance proceeds or just didn't want to hassle over the car on Friday nights? Hey, don't laugh, it's happened before. So why not now, huh? After all, why should anyone assume creativejani isn't an evil, deplorable human being? Others have killed their own before, so why not you? Oh, what's that? You're offended that someone would even think of anything so offensive in your 'hour of grief'? Hm, sounds like you're just trying to avoid talking about it.... Your ignorance, on this occasion, is insulting to the basic human decency of many, many people. Frankly, it makes you a lesser person. I'm disgusted.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:01:56 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Take Jim with a grain of salt or alum maybe Jani Message:

It's always smart to follow the money trail which is another way of saying who benefits. I don't however, think this is about money as much as it is about power and the New World Order. There will be serious discussion of a world army and ending nationalism in favor of globalism. Which by themselves are not necessarily bad, but I just wouldn't want the same crew who is current running the show to solidify their stranglehold on the rest of us any more than the already have. Gerrrey the ninthe grade educashuner

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:07:10 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: You're being offensive too, Gerry Message:

Gerry, For you to imply that the U.S. government is somehow even remotely involved is offensive. I say the same thing to you as I did to creativejani. How do we know that you weren't responsible for your wife, Patty's, car accident? Maybe you were tired of her, huh? Maybe you just wanted to squeeze a few bucks out of Prudtential or something. Don't get me wrong, Ger, just following the money.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:28:14 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: You're being offensive too, Gerry Message:

Jim, The suspicion of private individuals is different than that of governments. The nature of world affairs and politics automatically throws a certain amount of suspicion on a world power in the 21st century. The U.S. in particular has a history of questionable activity that, if suspected at the time, could easily have fallen in the category of conspiracy theory. For instance, the involuntary use of African-Americans in medical experiments, the involuntary use of LSD on private citizens, the Iran-Contra affair, the CIA involvement in the drug trade. The list is so long, I can hardly remember all the incidents. The problem isn't in considering that the U.S. could be involved in all sorts of dirty trickery and nasty deeds; it's in forming conclusions without anything more than vague suspicion. Private individuals, on the other hand, are considered innocent until proven guilty. It's unfair to consider someone guilty of a crime without evidence, motive, opportunity, etc. In the case of a world power like the U.S., those elements are already there. I think it would be naive to not consider that people and institutions of great power aren't highly susceptible to being corrupt.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:36:42 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: Where'd that come from? Message:

Interesting principle, Rick, that private citizens somehow deserve greater presumption of innocence than governments but I've never heard it before. Nor does it make any sense to me. People are people, whether they're acting invidividually or as elected officials. There is no reason at all to think that any of the people in the U.S. government would even think of doing something like this. None of your examples of past dirty dealings even begin to come close to triggering such suspicion. This kind of thinking is vile.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:23:41 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim two questions Message:

What would it take for you to be just a little suspicious of government? And if one thinks that the government is corrupt why is it vile to think that they could have a hand in this tragedy? I think government involvement was limited to provocation, decades of provocation. Take the TWA 800 flight. Is there really any thinking person out there, having examined the evidence, who doesn't believe this flight was shot down by a missle?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:39:48 (EDT) From: CNN Email: None To: Rick Subject: Re: You're being offensive too, Gerry Message:

Didn't FDR know about Pearl Harbor in advance? FDR wanted to get involved in WWII, but didn't have support from Americans to do so. After Pearl Harbor was bombed, FDR finally had the support to enter the war.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:46:09 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: CNN Subject: absolutamente (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:22:35 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: War is Business Message:

Jim, I understand your faith in the establishment, you've been brainwashed by the subliminal ULF's from your TV set, but remember these are pretty much the same bunch who brought the Vietnam war. No, I really can't understand your attitude. You actual have faith in our leaders? You actually think they have our best intentions at heart? Did you ever read Kissinger's plan for population reduction? Does anyone else know I threw Patty from the train?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:26:49 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: In this case war is religion Message:

Ger, It's impossible to tell what you actually believe and what you say just for effect. By the way, on a different note altogether, why is CD allowed to post here? Isn't the fact that he's blocked me and Deb from his own fourm enough to earn him some sort of reciprocal non-privileges?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:14:29 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot) Message:

Nigel, I was also quite dismayed by those polls, but I really think you are seeing 'heat-of-the-moment' here (I believe the polls you are referring to were taken on Wednesday or Thursday after the attack.) A lot of good people I know did have the urge to retaliate right away because the events were so shocking and they wanted to DO something to avenge the people who were killed. But almost all of them are seeing the other side now, and realizing this ain't gonna be easy. I believe that part of the reason you are hearing such strong rhetoric from Bush et al. is because the administration knows that military action is going to cost American lives because they are not going to be able to do this without ground troops. People here don't want that, especially those who remember VietNam - and this could be a lot like VietNam (except it would have a point...) I think that *some* Americans may believe this can be solved from afar - by bombs, missles, etc., but I think they are wrong - and I also believe both Colin Powell and Dick Cheney know this - probably even Bush, too. My sister has a high-school age son, and she said all the high school kids are talking about being drafted, and most of them are afraid. This has really changed people's lives in the US - and it's still sinking in. JMHO, as always - Love, Katie

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 11:43:00 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Look at it another way Message:

American governments have shown in recent years that they are loath to cause civilian casualties and I think that even though some red-necks might not care, the US military will be going out of their way to avoid civilian deaths. Listening to Powell the other day where he outlined how difficult this war would be and how going in with ground troops was the only way, I doubt that we'll see carpet bombing of civilians. I forsee a long protracted war similar to Vietnam. The terrorists will bomb America and Britain with nuclear and chemical weapons if they're given half a chance. They don't need an excuse. It is the terrorists who are opposed to any peace processes in the Middle East and they bomb in order to thwart any peace processes. We've seen the same thing with Northern Ireland, of course. I think people are wrong if they surmise that the terrorists attacked America because of a lack of progress in the Middle Rast. If the terrorists were really concerned about the Palestinian issue, they would have attacked Israel and not America. We're dealing with a large cult of Muslim fanatics who see America as the Great Satan. They will attack, whatever America or the West does. So we've no choice but to wipe them out before they have the capability to bomb us with nuclear or chemical weapons. That is the real danger and like the Second World War where we sent ground troops in to locate and destroy Germany's nuclear capability, we have to do the same now.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:02:27 (EDT) From: creativejani Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Look at it another way Message:

'Wipe them out?' Oh really, how can you wipe out people who have no outward signs of being terrorists, who are ready to be 'activated' at any time, who see dying as the ultimate glory? You can't threaten them, you can't fight ideas with weapons - just ensure more innocent people die. If America had taken the threats and warnings about attacks seriously (assuming they didnt want them, in order to have an excuse to go to war) they could have organised security in airports and prevented most of the deaths last Tuesday. Why do Americans never look to themselves, learn lessons - why is it always 'let's go over there and bomb/kill them into submission? The only antidote to hate is love - this is a test for all of us to see what we REALLY believe in. Striking out is the first response - but don't we try and teach children not to do that, why is it o.k for countries to follow this primal response? Hasn't Vietnam taught our leaders anything - you can't fight terrorism with force - you must use intelligence, vigilance, brain not brawn. Or we'll all suffer more carnage, needlessly.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:35:38 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: creativejani Subject: Intelligence is the best answer Message:

I agree with you about that. The only way this can really be dealt with is to infiltrate those organizations on the ground so we will know if some attack is going to take place. But from what I've read, it will take a decade for our moribund intelligence services to get to that point. I think it really is the key, though.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:33:27 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: creativejani Subject: America waking up Message:

I mean wipe out the terrorist training camps and arsenals of chemical and nuclear weapons. Bin Laden and Saddam Hussain both have or are nearly at nuclear capability. That needs to be wiped out. That should have been done years ago and I suspect that last week's attacks finally woke up the US government to the danger. American security at airports was the most lax in the world up until last Tuesday. Again, they have just woken up to what the rest of the world already new.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:39:38 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Airport Security Message:

Dave, I thought it was amazing that the terrorists didn't do anything illegal in bringing the knives and box-cutters on the planes they hijacked. They aren't forbidden. But what's really amazing is that airport security is handled by the airlines, and they hire outside vendors who do it, who are paid very low wages and have incredible turnover (110% per year at SFO). At SF International, the people who run the x-ray screening machines are paid LESS than the people who clean the tables at the restaurants in the airport. I have personally seen the person behind the machine not even LOOKING at the bags as they went through. Lax isn't the word for it. I have to get on a plane in a couple of weeks and I'm not looking forward to it. One thing I will do, is talk to all the people around me on the plane and get to know them a little. Can't hurt to do that.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:56:12 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Airport Security Message:

You've certainly opened up my eyes there about the airline security in the US. The last time I went on domestic flights in the USA we could see the pilots sitting in the cockpit and there was no locked door in between them and the passengers. In fact, the door was open. I thought at the time that it was cool and friendly. I know now that in Europe certainly, the pilots are locked securely into their cockpits. I am still staggered that armed guards, armed with stun guns or something similar, aren't deployed on all flights. It would push the ticket price up but would also mean that the airline industry would not be about to go out of business because people would feel much safer about flying. Failure to deploy in-flight security like that will mean far, far less people will be willing to fly and many carriers will go out of business.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:04:38 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Airport Security Message:

One area of flight security that hasn't been considered are large private corporate jets. They're totally out of the scope of airline security and carry huge amounts of fuel. Although you wouldn't need to worry about being on one when it's hijacked, they could easily be used like the ones in the WTC incidents. And don't forget small aircraft that can be reached in any town by just hopping a chain-linked fence. They aren't hard to hot wire, and at night, no one would see a bomb being loaded aboard. But I think the whole aircraft thing is passe now, anyways. If you were a terrorist, what would you be thinking about targetting? Probably not another airplane, because that's where all the attention is. You'd be eyeballing another area where no one's even looking. I don't understand why the media and the government isn't thinking 'outside the box' on this.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:12:52 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Rick Subject: What Gets Me the Most Message:

In 1993, some terrorists planted a big bomb in the the basement garage at WTC and some people were killed. In yet another example of closing the barn door after the horse has escaped, you probably could NEVER do that again. But, hey, what about from the air? It's like they never thought about it as being even possible. Clearly WTC were seen as the target of choice, (I guess because they represent US International Capitalism or something),but hadn't we thought about how they were vulnerable? Now, we are, but I think the people paid to think about that stuff clearly failed, big time. And the fact that somebody could fly a plane into the Pentagon is just amazing. Clearly, this was a massive intelligence failure, but I think also a security failure of the highest order. BTW, I do not for a minute believe Air Force One was a target. I think that was said (with zero proof) because the White House felt it looked bad that New York and DC were blowing up and the President was flying off to Louisiana, and then Nebraska in a bunker. Somehow I don't see Franklin Roosevelt or Dwight Eisenhower doing that, even if they were advised to do so. Bush, on the other hand, isn't home. He does ONLY what he's advised.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:44:57 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: What Gets Me the Most Message:

Hi Joe, Personally, I think there is too much ground to cover. While you're looking up they'll hit you from below, and visa versa. I don't really blame the government for not considering the possiblity of hitting buildings from the air. Sure it's possible, but how probable was it? No one had done it before. What about the water supply? Is anyone guarding that? Or could someone just walk up to the reservoir and dump in a biological agent? How about the food supply at a large university cafeteria? Is there anything at all from stopping someone from contaminating that and killing a thousand of our smartest and brightest at Harvard? The fact is, a society with hundreds of millions of people can't protect itself from terrorism. You'd have to cover every hole, and that's impossible. Whatever holes you can cover, would be exactly where the terrorists wouldn't hit. So unfortunately, we have to wait and deal with the most likely. Up until Sept. 11, it looked unlikely we needed to worry about people hijacking planes in to buildings.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:49:37 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Rick Subject: True, Rick Message:

Although, I know that in California there have been a lot of steps taken to protect the water supply. I know there are lots of targets, but WTC was already attacked once. That makes that situation different. Plus, the billions we spend on the intelligence services ought to be providing better results, especially now. It's not like we can just watch Soviet troop and nuclear activities from a Satellite. Plus, I don't think those guys use the phone.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:19:10 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: That's pretty strong language, Joe Message:

Joe, You that certain that the government lied about Air Force One being a target? I admire your confidence. Of course, if you're wrong, you'll extend the appropriate apologies to everyone involved in this ugly deceit? By the way, it appears that the FBI and CIA knew that the Islamic extremists were considering this very type of plan back in '93. They found plans or speculations about doing just this in the siezed papers of the WTC bombers. Of course that's probably a lie too. ;)

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:31:06 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: They knew about it? Message:

They knew that an airliner attack on WTC was in the works? That's the first time I heard that, although IMO that makes it even worse that there wasn't something done about it.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:37:30 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: They knew about it? Message:

I don't have the complete story, but the Mossad and German intelligence warned some months ago of an eminent attack. I mean imminent. God, that ninthe grade education is still coming back to haunt me. I wonder what could have been done in light of the warning. Tighten airport security, air defence of DC, anything?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:45:20 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: gerry Subject: Jim said they knew in 1993 Message:

....not just recently. The skepticism about Air Force One being a target is beginning to be raised in the press as well. Air Force One was in Florida at the time, with the president, who then flew with it to Nebraska. While it appears Camp David was a target, no one has provided any evidence that there was yet another plane, on its way to Florida to smash into Air Force One. That's why I don't believe it.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:51:17 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Jim said they knew in 1993 Message:

Also, how could an airliner hit Air Force One? First, how would they know it's exact location? Would they hit it while it was on the ground? How would they know the Pres was on board? Hit it while moving? Now that's a stretch?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:00:54 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: last time I flew Message:

This June. They were so behind and disorganized they didn't check my papers correctly just glanced and sent me to the wrong gate, didn't even ask the 3 questions. Oddly enough on the other half of the connecting flight my bag was searched don't ask me why! I don't want to think they were just filling quotas and picked me randomly but what else could it be and the guy answered me when I asked why, 'you have a friendly face' eesh!!!

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:32:32 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: creativejani Subject: Your pomposity is gross Message:

First, as I said before, your suggestion that America might have actually purposely invited this attack is disgusting. You say the 'only antidote to hate is love' but I get the impression that you're the last person to really understand what love is. You've got lessons to teach? How funny.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:31:57 (EDT) From: Mail Carrier Email: None To: All Subject: Milli at LIG Message:

Posted: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:55:22 (EDT) Original: NA Posted by: Mili Recipient: All Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0) Message Count: 17 visits (17 today, 17 this week, 17 this month, 17 this year) Subject: Interesting article Message: Why the 'anti-cult' movement is worse than any 'cult'. http://www.religioustolerance.org/acm.htm Poor soul, he reads those sites wishing to convince himself 'his cult' is good enough, yeah, is better than nothing because without one many would be NOTHING.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:59:32 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: All Subject: sore tongue Message:

I've been away for several days, and I have missed all the posts regarding the terrorist attacks last week. I am hoping to look over them later. I've been around premies for a week and my tongue is sore from biting it so as not to ask, 'So. Where is your Lord of the Universe, now?' 'So. Where is the Peace Bomb?' This is rawat's 'guarantee of peace'? Thanks. I prefer war. At least war has defined enemies.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:35:08 (EDT) From: SILVIA Email: None To: All Subject: Please FA, BLOCK SC nt Message:

yes

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:08:57 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: All Subject: Maharaji's offering re tragedy Message:

A premie sent me this from Maharaji's website: Heartfelt condolences to all the victims and innocent people who have been touched by this tragedy. In this hour of need, dear God  Grant us your grace,  Guide us from darkness to light  From confusion to clarity  From pain to joy  From hate to love.  Give us the strength to endure.  Give us the courage to go on.  Bless us with your kindness. Maharaji

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:28:29 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Nauseating Message:

Sorry, I can't take this seriously. I just think Maharaji is the most contrived person around, and I don't take anything he says as being sincere. So, tell me, Maharaji: where have you and 'God' been up till now? Was God on vacation when those buildings and all those people were destroyed? Has he been 'blessing us' with his kindness recently? Also, are you implying that if people had 'knowledge' that they wouldn't be terrorists, experience hate, suffer, or die when buildings collapse? I don't think so, because Maharaji gave up talking about how he would bring peace to the world, like he promised 30 years ago, when it became clear to even his most gullible followers that he was incapable of ever doing it, or even trying. No, nothing like that, just a plea for God's grace, although Maharaji apparently maintains you don't even have to believe in God to be a premie, but contradictions have never seemed to bother him. So, tell me, what good is it? If any premies died in WTC, did they have some advantage over the others by following their breath as they crashed to their deaths? Also, isn't it interesting that Maharaji's website has some kind of a statement, such as it is, about the events in the USA, but when that big earthquake in India happened a few months ago, we heard not a peep from Mr. Rawat on his website, despite that fact that his puny number of followers in the West is tiny compared to those who supposedly follow him in India. Cynic that I am, I think this has something to do with where most of Mr. Rawat's income is obtained. I know this is cynical, but given Maharaji's almost total disregard for anyone but himself, for his entire life, I have a hard time thinking he is really coming from a place of compassion.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:58:57 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Check out his cult member's response Message:

Here's Karen Plaxton's response from ELK: Karen Plaxton: A new day From Manila in the Philippines This morning I awoke to another day, much like any of the past few days, hearing news about the terrible madness that has again taken grip of this world. Being human, I have felt deep grief at what has just recently happened... Here she sounds like a Conehead, reminding herself that she's 'human' searching for something akin to a 'human' response. Her real feelings emerge a little further down. I fix myself breakfast, take care of my chores, no time yet spent on myself, and my beautiful heaven. Wearily I switch on the computer and proceed to take care of my responsibilities both to my friends and family that have corresponded with me, and for my 'little' participation that I have given a commitment to. Cult members seek the refuge of their cult experience as a default. That's what it's all about. But Karen here must also begrudgingly play the 'human' role too. So if her family wants to connect with her half-way around the world in an unsettled political climate itself besieged by muslim extremists, she'll oblige. She'll send them an email or two. But that's not really what it's all about, is it? The message to go to the light, to read the words of my master, spurred me on to wake up a little. And with human curiosity and a student's anticipation I clicked on the light. Again, the laughably arms-length comment about her questionable 'humanity', now juxtaposed with a 'student's' emotions. And all to what end? So she can 'click on the light' on Maharaji's website. What is she? A trained pigeon? His words, so caring for humanity and its madness... his warmth and compassion touched me so deeply, so profoundly, that once again, tears well in my eyes, and I thank god over and over for allowing such a man to exist amongst us. Anyone outside of her cult would see Maharaji's insipid comments as, at best, entirely ordinary. No different, say, than Yassar Arafat's (the guy who released from prison all the convicted Hamas terrorists so they too could express themselves in the recent Intifada). But Karen sees God himself in these words and is overwhelmed. Wonder what she'd say if she could have heard Maharaji's words as he directed the fugitive flight of his own would-be assassin, Fakiranand, some years ago. Oh Maharaji, how sweet to be remembered by you, how great you place me in this multitude. Thank you for giving me your love, and may I never get lost in darkness again, and may you never have to know the sadness that past masters have suffered for being so kind. I love you from the bottom of my heart. Religion is the root cause of this latest attack. There is no doubt about it. It's time we turned away from a false belief system, no matter what flavour, and learned to appreciate our lives for what they are, miraculous, chance effects of a wondrous, unplanned and undirected phenomenon called evolution. No masters to guide us, no sheiks to direct fatwas (as the senior sheik of Pakistan did a few years ago against all Americans). No popes, priests, reverands or rabbis to explain to us the mysterious workings of an imaginary God. No Falwells or Robertsons either. Sooner or later you'd think the truth would prevail. It's not like it has to but it seems to always have before. That must be the reason that now, centuries after people first learned the world was round, we all accept that as true, save and except for a few freaks hardly worth mention. Well, the case for evolution is just as overwhelming as that for a round earth. So when, I wonder. When will we as a species finally learn? I know, some say never. They say that the emotional grasp religion and spirituality has on us is so deeply ingrained we'll never give it up. My solace, though, is in the knowledge that there's never before been such an important scientific understanding that hasn't ....eventually ... gained universal acceptance.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:06:26 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Check out his cult member's response Message:

''His words, so caring for humanity and its madness... his warmth and compassion touched me so deeply, so profoundly, that once again, tears well in my eyes, and I thank god over and over for allowing such a man to exist amongst us. Oh Maharaji, how sweet to be remembered by you, how great you place me in this multitude. Thank you for giving me your love, and may I never get lost in darkness again, and may you never have to know the sadness that past masters have suffered for being so kind. I love you from the bottom of my heart.'' I think I am going to be sick Rawat cares for nothing but himself and his finances --- get that through your heads, please. You are all making asses of yourselves. Please stop. It's a disgrace.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:51:10 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jim Subject: Amen! Message:

Jim said: ''Religion is the root cause of this latest attack. There is no doubt about it. It's time we turned away from a false belief system, no matter what flavour, and learned to appreciate our lives for what they are, miraculous, chance effects of a wondrous, unplanned and undirected phenomenon called evolution. No masters to guide us, no sheiks to direct fatwas (as the senior sheik of Pakistan did a few years ago against all Americans). No popes, priests, reverands or rabbis to explain to us the mysterious workings of an imaginary God. No Falwells or Robertsons either.'' Nearly all current wars have religion as their root cause (Ireland, the Fillipines.) Although some appear to be ethnic, (the Balkans) religion is mixed in the deadly cocktail. Even WW11 included a religious holocaust. Exposing Rev Rawat is only a part of my complete detestation of atavistic religious beliefs.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:07:16 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: I can't resist it! Message:

Imagine -- John Lennon Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today... Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be as one Imagine no possessions I wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man Imagine all the people Sharing all the world... You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:09:13 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Glad you couldn't resist it! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:38:34 (EDT) From: salsa Email: None To: Disculta Subject: how profund Message:

HOW MUCH MONEY DID HE DONATED? IS HE GIVING BLOOD? WHAT GOD? HE IS THE DARKNESS OF THE WORLD. HE IS UNKIND, HE TORTURES PEOPLE'S MENTALLY TRANSMITTING CONFUSSION.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:30:18 (EDT) From: Arjuna Email: None To: All Subject: M's bro (Satpal Ji Maharaj) writes Bush Message:

Remember my Name and fight or Satpal goes to Washington http://manavdharam.org/news/usa_terror.html

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:41:51 (EDT) From: Now's the time for the Malibu Rawat Email: None To: Arjuna Subject: to do some serious satsanging Message:

of Bush, the Taliban and Bin Laden. I'm sure they would like to know that that which they are looking for is within inside and he just happens to be the dude who's got the key but they must come to him with the innocense of a child. and as a reward for their humbling themselves to him he MAY let them kiss his foot. He holds the solution to all their problems but if they have problems they should see a psychiatrist because these are problems not covered by the blanket statement of 'the solution to all their problems' but by giving him money he can help others find the solution to all their problems.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:44:16 (EDT) From: [Blank] Email: None To: Now's the time for the Malibu Rawat Subject: Re: to do some serious satsanging Message:

Yo bush, I condone terrorisim too. I also hate cults, especially those that are run by slimmy ass Indians gurus, do you think you can ask the FBI to do something about it? Thank bud, Salam To Mr Bush from the White House of America

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:07:07 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: All Subject: William Butler Yeats/Joni Mitchell Message:

In her album, ''Night Ride Home'' Joni Mitchell used the words of W.B. Yeats in the following poem to write a beautiful song, here is his poem: The Second Coming Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand. The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? Over and out, it's late, I've said more than I should, I've lashed out to those who don't deserve it and to those who do. I am afraid. I wish I could sing Joni's song to you right now. Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:15:30 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: William Butler Yeats/Joni Mitchell Message:

I wish you could sing it too. Are you are soprano? I can't ever remember hearing that or I did but didn't listen to the words because of not being a big Mitchell fan. But I know the poem well and have never understood the last two lines. The riddle of the sphinx. Maybe I'm just dumb but I can't believe that Yeats meant it to sound as obvious as it does. Thanks for that.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:58:54 (EDT) From: Kitty Email: None To: All Subject: The Hydra-headed Monster Message:

Many commentators are now saying that killing Bin Laden will not do any good. It will be like chopping off one of the Hydra's heads. Two more will spring forth. Bin Laden will be a martyr as PatC said (Hi PatC, I'm a big fan of yours. I read all your posts) and ten more will spring up to take his place. I've been reading this forum for a while but have not posted before because I did not feel that I had anything to say. There are just so many brilliant writers here like Jim and Joe and Anth. But this terror attack has simply forced me to say something. Also this sorrow is something that we all share in common whether we are premies or expremies. I just wanted to let you all know that I have been so impressed with all the brilliant posts here this week. And that my heart goes out to all of you. My prayer is that God helps us in this hour of our need and suffering. Yes, I am a premie and I was very pleased to see that M posted a prayer for our suffering on his website. I know that most of you will hate me and tell me to go away but I just wanted to tell you that I really agree with nearly everything that most of you say. I have never really been involved with the cult but yes, I do love M as my friend and companion in need. He is not responsible for what the weird people who run the cult do. He really is a very live and let live kind of guy. My dad has been close to him for years and I have had the chance to speak to him in private a couple of times and I always came away feeling so loved and blessed. His smile is so sweet and his eyes are full of compassion one minute and fun the next. I think half the problem is that expremies didn't really get to know him and therefore have a false impression. Anyway I won't go on too much about that (otherwise PatC will accuse me of being a cult apologist hee hee) because I really am not in the cult. And yes, there is a cult. M always warned us about that and some of us took that to heart and realized that our connection was inside and not in this temporary world. The beauty is inside. K shows us what is immortal and everlasting within us. I'm just sorry that you all got so hurt by the external trappings of the cult like the ashram etc. So I just basically wanted to say that you are all in my prayers that whatever pain was caused to you will be lifted and that you will one day realize that anger and hate are not the way but true love is. Pussy Weasel Kitty (channeled by PatC) Sorry guys for doing that to you but I am trying to make a point about the cult apologists who post here. Isn't it funny how two heads pop up for every one Hydra who is chopped up? Isn't it funny how none of them are in the cult but just love M as a friend? Isn't it funny that they all claim to be posting from Australia? Isn't it funny that, no matter how sweet the Cerises, Marolyns and SCs are at first, when they are challenged their claws come out and they begin to hiss viciously? Isn't it funny that they all have the same sarcastic sense of humor and enjoy yanking our chains and laughing at us when we take the bait? Isn't it funny how they all end up sounding just like the author of CAC?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:18:26 (EDT) From: Catweasel Email: None To: Kitty Subject: Re: The Hydraulic- Pussy Monster Message:

Pat , you can a very paranoid person sometimes. I think that you give me more techo credit than I deserve. Perhaps you should appraise the Australian character if you want the real answer to your question. There is no doubt that it is easy to mask location and identity quite easily. To be blunt Pat, I simply haven't got the time to wage the cyber war you have me conspiring. Pat I was here a long time before you were. If you check with Katie you will find I have always given BIG hints as to my Cat like nature. Like attracts like Pat.Screwballs will joust with screwballs. Leave it alone. If I wanted to fuck with you , you'd be rubbing your arse and wondering what happened before you blinked. Take it on board once and for all - there is only one Catweasel(aren't you lucky?) For the rest I cannot speak. There is someone up in Northern New South Wales with that sort of time and inclination. Kinda BENT. Sniff that one out Pat. He likes 2/1 or shorter.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:23:17 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Re: The Hydraulic- Pussy Monster Message:

I honestly don't understand you. Sometimes you seem smart and other times just dumb or pretending to be dumb. Did I mention your name? No! I was merely borrowing some inspiration from you. I am NOT stupid (I may be a slow learner but I learn thoroughly.) If I had meant you I would have specifically mentioned you. I deliberately did not. Now who's paranoid - no that's unfair. I should say: Now who thinks it's always about themselves?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:00:29 (EDT) From: Catweasel Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: With Teeth!!!! Message:

Ahhh you be a lotta fun ole Pat Conlan! You jump and writhe loik a 4lb Brown trout dancing atop of me mill pond with my fly in its mouth. So Patty Cake what to do? Do we put it all in the blender and hope for something edible?Or do we just play to the pretty girls wanting to make love sittin in the first three rows?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:08:46 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Re: With Teeth!!!! Uh uh - I'll pull them first Message:

The cultweasel said: ''Ahhh you be a lotta fun ole Pat Conlan! You jump and writhe loik a 4lb Brown trout dancing atop of me mill pond with my fly in its mouth.'' You flatter yourself, Victoria dahling. I would never put your fly in my mouth but you can suck my cock if you want but first I will have to pull your teeth because I know you are a sado-masochist just like your master and are just dying to be slapped around for biting your lover's dick. Not my scene- S&M - too feudalistic and primitve for my tastes. The idea of having or being a master gives me the willies, love. Too paleolithic.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:56:49 (EDT) From: Catweasel Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: With Teeth!!!! Uh uh - I'll pull them first Message:

Pat;this seems to bring out the best in you!I think you could be stretching something here.Now Pat if you wont take the fly why not just swim off into the sunset. It's a big pond. Whilst you continually circle the bait , the fisherperson will keep casting. Me? I'm a nature freak. I just watch the show.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:35:55 (EDT) From: JOhnT Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Did you sue? Message:

The charm school, Cat, the charm school.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:05:15 (EDT) From: Ex-Tex Email: None To: Kitty Subject: Re: The Hydra-headed Monster Message:

My lovely dear friends..... To paraphrase Gandhi 'An eye for an eye will eventually leave the world totally BLIND!' Chickens have come home to roost. This did not come out of a vacuum... know history.... it is ugly and sad. I fear for the future of all. Are we reeling way out of control? Where will it end? Is this really the 1930's again???? Please tell me NO.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:45:33 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Kitty Subject: Dear Kitty... Message:

Well, you sly cat you. You had me going there for a second. How are you Pat? I'm miserable. I'm scared. I hate war, I just want my hubby to come home and make love. I've become completely intolerant of the likes of which you describe, the premies who so blantanly show their cultist thinking. Take care of yourself, sweetheart, I got a feeling we are in for it for the long haul. Much love to you, Charles, Andy and all the four-leggeds, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:29:57 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Dear Kitty... Message:

Cheer up. He'll soon be home for some nice wet smooches and sloppy yabyum. And we'll soon have a nice benign police state. We'll all be fine. Only criminals will need to fear. It'll be like pre-WW11 Berlin where anything goes except for social predators. However we must outlaw the death penalty before that happens because the Black Shirts may replace the Brown Shirts. This will be my coming campaign - to outlaw the death penalty. No state should have that power. The attack was planned on the net according to the FBI and they are post-morteming it to see how to be onto it the next time. There will be net police and marshalls on public transportation and lots of cops in the streets. No more rapes or muggings etc. Sounds fine as long as we follow the spirit of Plato rather than Hitler.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:52:41 (EDT) From: Pussyweasel Email: None To: Kitty Subject: Conspiracy theories Message:

You're paranoid Mr Conlon as usual. Go meditate. Your brain will explode. It's always about you isn't it? PatC channeling a cacweasel.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:56:54 (EDT) From: SC Email: None To: Pussyweasel Subject: I wuz gonna say the same thing... Message:

You may be a brilliant writer Pat, but I've gotten exactly the same wash about you, over the months. It's all about ME ME ME, my perspective on everything, my pain, my hard but triumphant life, my take on this, my take on that, my restaurant, my customers, my dear friends on the forum and on and on. It's ok, we've all been there too and it doesn't mean your'e not a great person. However, every time I've befriended you. I've no sooner turned around and there you are on F7 backstabbing me again. So I've given up. Oh and please don't rib us endlessly about the CAC thing. Have you any idea how much work Cat and I put into that? Unpaid work it was too! Mind you, we almost developed hernias from the laughing. SC (channelling Marolyn Cerise Godhard who has much more love than hiss)

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:49:34 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: SC Subject: what you posted on LG Message:

I have come to the conclusion that life is a whole lot simpler when one removes the awful glasses of fear and cynicism which leads us to judge others as something that threatens us. If New Age self appointed prophets continue to see the devil in their own kind, their own herd, what will they make of a real enemy whose actions are most clearly and definitely to Kick Our Butts? What a hipocrat!

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:22:04 (EDT) From: SILVIA Email: None To: SC Subject: FA, please BLOCK SC Message:

SC, I have watched your behavior' and read carefully your words. You are a tru;y pathetic person/cult member and you have no business talking to people. You lack common sense. You are as said a sadist person. One who think to be at top of all and face it baby, yes, baby, you are far from that. You belong to a world of fantasy by the courtesy of your master, you dog. I dislike you totaly: You are hurtful and enjoy doing it. You got trapped in the world of K. What a joke! You, pathetic being. Superior/better my fucking ass. Better is being more human and lng a go maharaji began to transform people in something very weird: You are proof. I VOTE TO BLOCK THIS NONSENSE PERSON.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:36:50 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: SC Subject: Re: I wuz gonna say the same thing... Message:

Well, obviously you were going to say the exact same thing. After all I was channeling you. Okay, my humble apologies for always talking about me me me. Let's hear all about you you you. And I'm serious. As egotistical as I am, I am also just as interested in others as I am in myself. I am willing to love others just as much as I love myself and give them the same attention and care as I do for myself. And no one can accuse me of not loving myself. I absolutely adore myself. I am my best friend and the person I know best. If I love you like I love myself (as the good book says we should) then you will know that you are probably loved by me more than you love yourself. So please tell me all about yourself. And I AM serious. I really do enjoy people - real people who aren't afraid to be honest and true. In fact there are very few people whom I dislike or do not eventually begin to love.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:09:06 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: SC Subject: LEAVE PAT ALONE, You... Message:

FUCKING foot kisser! Go and worship your urug, and ask him personally if you can get his attention or get within a mile of him especially under today's circumstances. Go back to Lifes a Ball, or Livings Great, or Frisbees are fun, leave my friend alone. You heartless asshole!

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:11:50 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Yeah, SC, I mean it! Message:

Ignorant motherfucking interloping, agent provacateur, fucking stick up your ass, hateful pissant.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:28:28 (EDT) From: SC Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: you mean nothing Cynthia Message:

but an empty cry in the wilderness

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:42:54 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: SC Subject: It's cold, cruel words like that, David Message:

..........that make me dislike you. Also the fact that you are not a brave man. Cowardly in fact.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:56:05 (EDT) From: SC Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: And Cynthia's words? Message:

Ah yes, very inspiring aren't they. They make a reader really warm to her right? Hey, it's a fucked up world and she's an out of control emotional basket case throwing caca in other people's faces. Not mine buddy... Now the club has joined in the vomit fray. So what's new? Next month there'll be another target. Believe me Pat it takes a very stupid, I mean err, very brave man to post the stuff on this forum that I do. Some people realise why I do it. It's enough. But when one posts a sincere message supporting someone's point of view, and they spit it in your face, well, you realise how sick they really are. They get it right back. I saw bjorn go through exactly the same thing. He experienced the horror hate gauntlet from sime of the most rabid, revolting people on the internet and tried to justify his way out of it, poor sod. I see a sick fuck. I call a sick fuck. Don't try and deny that they aren't here because everyone knows they are. You also know who they are, but are too gutless to say so. That's cowardice, to deliberately deny your own perceptions just so you can keep the fake cameraderi going. If certain parties could drop their emotional hysteria for 2 seconds. They'd see that nothing could be less cold, cruel or cowardly than to say, 'HEY.... WAKE THE FUCK UP! Nothing to do with being a pwk or not. There's a much deeper psychosis at work. And it needs addressing. I'm off to see Wall St opening. I may be some time.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:36:10 (EDT) From: complete contempt Email: None To: SC Subject: Re: And Cynthia's words? Message:

With people like you in the world SC, the chances of levelling humanity up instead of down are I would say IMHO are zero! Why don't you remember your own master's words 'WHEN YOU POINT A FINGER, THREE ARE POINTING BACK AT YOU.' Your venom is telling us a great deal about you, stupid fool. Remember this and go look in a mirror, creep.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:34:35 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: SC Subject: You are so enlightened... Message:

SC, why are you here? To insult? To jab? To validate your cultist thoughts? You can't hurt me with your words, SC, I'm way beyond that. Don't forget, I used to follow Maharaji, I was close to him too. I know him. And I was an ashram premie. You don't know shit. An empty cry in the wilderness? From you, that's a compliment. Thank you.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:39:43 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: SC you are cruel and sadistic [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:00:55 (EDT) From: SC Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Make up your mind girl! Message:

Cynthia, I posted a message to you yesterday under you post called 'THIS THREAD IS TERRIBLE'. You spoke about women and society. My response to it was an honest, no bullshit, heartfelt support of you position re feminism and women 's treatment in society. Anyone with any degree of intelligence (please look) will see that it in NO WAY smells of cynicism, game playing or an attempt to mock your position. If you had read and responded without that lovely Selene's help, maybe you would have been sincere about it and respected that some things GO BEYOND boundaries. No matter what your stance on other matters, I happen to agree with you that women have been given a bunch of crap for WAY TOO LONG on this planet. And you and your sick twisted friends spin my post into some kind of evil mindwarp to be mocked and rejected. No wonder you say are 'broken'. You sure got that right.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:28:15 (EDT) From: Miss PWK Email: None To: SC Subject: Nyah, nyah, nyah - PatC has posted Message:

.........two hundred posts in the first three threads, SC! Isn't that terrible? He types and reads so fast. I'm just green with envy! ;)

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:15:32 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: SC Subject: you are a fake and a phony Message:

Cynthia is not stupid. Neither was Jim or MOST of the others you have tried to ooze up to. It's quite transparant how you twist and use posts on here, and ony to try to hurt. You should have stuck with quoting others. fuck off 'Super Creep'

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:09:24 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Selene Subject: Super Creep !! Message:

Heh! Just gotta love ya, Selene. You are the one and only Super Bee! May the sun long shine on you! xJT

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:58:44 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Re: Super Creep Message:

Hi John I hope things are ok for you during this time. I'm gong to try to get some work done today. I've been suprised this creep hasn't been booted out of here yet, just because he/she/it can write more than 3 words like some other trolls doesn't make the words themselves better. Worse really.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:14:58 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Selene Subject: Re: Super Creep Message:

Thanks for that, I'm gutted (of course), tearful and very concerned. I feel about America like the Duke of Wellington felt about his troops ... 'I don't know what they do for the enemy' he (allegedly) said 'but they terrify me.'

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:59:05 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Selene Subject: SC, You are a sadistic follower... Message:

of a sadistic master. Play your games, I am immune.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:00:06 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: No cynthia - sado-masochistic Message:

If you study the psychology of S&M you will find that all sadists are masochists and vice versa. Anyone who is bedazzled by love as power is usually both. Masters are usually the most masochistic and often suffer from martyrdom complexes and feel that their servants are not humble enough. Servants/slaves often tend towards being sadists and enjoy watching their masters squirming to ""win"" the sex/love/power game. It really is complex and appeals to people who do not trust that others really love them. Who needs masters or slaves? Too atavistic! Too childish. Only requited love between equals is not fraught with sado-masochism. Gurujism is spiritual sado-masochism.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:58:10 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: All Subject: what is happening in Pakistan. Message:

Looks like the Pakistanies are taking this very seriously. Here is a portal with the latest Pakistani News Pakistan news headlines This is the address in case link does not work http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?o=portal&c=Pakistan%20news

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:48:03 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: salam Subject: Pakistani president now to visit CHINA for talks! Message:

Musharraf to visit China for terrorism talks Link: http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=7&id=78210

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:38:51 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: salam Subject: Re: what is happening in Pakistan. Message:

Hey, Salam, how accurate is this DEBKA? This report that suchabanana posted I find very disturbing if it's true.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:06:54 (EDT) From: [Blank] Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Re: what is happening in Pakistan. Message:

Yep. DEBKA is an Israeli Intelligence Agency, has contact. I don't normally shit my pants too easily, but those guys give me diarrhea. I will put my ear to the ground if I was in America, brrrrrrrrrrr.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:22:19 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: salam Subject: military update Message:

9/17/01 http://jang.com.pk/thenews/ http://www.debka.com/ Israelis reveal US troops movement By Nusrat Javeed ISLAMABAD: DEBKA, an Israel-based news and intelligence analysis portal, claimed Sunday that the 82nd and 101st airborne US divisions, which comprise nearly half of the airborne combat forces at the immediate disposal of US President George W Bush, are already 'being airlifted to bases in Pakistan.' The bulk of these forces, DEBKA went on to claim, 'will be moved to the northern Punjab region of Pakistan and take up position near the city of Dera Ismail Khan and in the valleys at the foot of the Suleiman mountain range.' That will position the US forces right 'across from their main target - the Afghan city of Kandahar (the spiritual capital of Taliban).' The News has already reported that some Islamabad-based diplomats keenly noticed the mobility of an oil tanker to Moron air base in the south of Spain of late. KC-10 tanker aircraft, which can do the refueling of planes in the air, are also stationed on this base. Furnishing of the fresh oil supplies to this base made the diplomats believe that with the word go, 'troops of 82nd airborne division, stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina and the Kentucky based 101st would begin flying off to the assigned destinations.' DEBKA is convinced that the United States is fast heading for a war 'to avenge itself for the catastrophic hijack-suicide attacks against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.' The first stage of the conflict, according to initial estimates made by DEBKA experts, 'could last two to three years.' The success of which 'will determine the scope and timeframe of the second phase.' It's not Kandahar only which is projected as the target of expected US assault on Afghanistan by DEBKA. 'The United States also intends to lay siege to, or capture, the Afghan cities of Medan, Galdek and Maroof as well as the Arghastan Valley, where, according to intelligence provided by Russia, India and Israel, Osama bin Laden's forces have been concentrated in recent months,' it adds. The US operations, the news portal predicted, 'will include air bombardments and missile strikes against Afghanistan's principal cities: Kabul, Jalalabad and Kandahar.' DEBKA also claims that 'Afghanistan is not the only target.' 'Washington is also planning a three-stage offensive against Iraq with the participation of US, British and Turkish forces.'

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:03:14 (EDT) From: [Blank] Email: None To: salam Subject: Re: what is happening in Pakistan. Message:

also, see Top Stories

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:47:33 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: [Blank] Subject: Behind the news. Scary shit. Message:

DEBKA Am shitting my pants reading this.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:05:34 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: salam Subject: Re: Behind the news. Scary shit. Message:

A snippet from that DEBKApage: Mohamed Atta and his cousin Marwan Ashehri, two of the 19 hijackers named by the US Justice Department, as perpetrators of the New York World Trade Center and Pentagon, Washington suicide attacks, have been variously described as Egyptian and Saudi nationals. DEBKAfile's intelligence sources have turned up their real identity: they were Palestinian-Americans. Atta was implicated in a series of bus bombings that hit Jerusalem in 1996. He evaded Israeli capture by going to ground among his relatives in America. The US authorities at the time turned down Israel's request to extradite this US national. Our sources further identify Atta as the scion of a prominent, affluent family in El-Bireh, Ramallah, one of whose members is a former mayor and most of whom carry American citizenship, as do many elite Palestinian families in Ramallah and its environs.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:17:35 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: salam Subject: Salam... Message:

I am shittin my pants, too. I think that the only thing we can do now is love those we love, watch and wait. This is overwhelming. I hope you are safe and well, Love, cynthia

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:30:09 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: salam Subject: Yes that is scary shit Message:

I think I better go home. Too much to read here for one time. Everyone take care, Deborah

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:10:16 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: All Subject: BBC Chief Sorry Over Anti-US TV Audience Message:

Updated: Sun, Sep 16 7:46 AM EDT LONDON (Reuters) - The head of the British Broadcasting Corporation, Greg Dyke, apologized Saturday for broadcasting a live discussion program in which audience members blamed U.S. foreign policy for Tuesday's terror attacks. More than 2,000 viewers complained after seeing the former U.S. Ambassador to Britain, Philip Lader, brought close to tears after attempts to express his sadness over the attacks were shouted down by people expressing anti-American views.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:53:38 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Deborah Subject: shouting at the ambassador Message:

Debs, I saw that program, but did not take too much notice of it, and I hope you don't either. People here are scared that we are officially fighting a war alongside America. It is felt not to be a war of our making, and if taxation without representation is tyranny, how do you think conscription without representation feels? The Ambassador would not accept that American conduct in the wider world could have had anything at all to do with the attack. This is not a view that is widely shared in the world (see the letter from the one-time British Ambassador to Nato that I've typed up and posted on Anything Goes), and it is not a view that a substantial part of the audience of that TV program found reassuring. The first casualty in war is the truth. The truth is that the world envies American freedom and dynamism -- and abhors many aspects of American foreign policy. To say this is NOT anti-American (though maybe it is anti-militaristic-rednecks). Don't let your politicians bully and lie and use emotional blackmail to confuse the issue. America will be defeated in this war if it is to be on behalf of the military-industrial complex that has impacted so harshly on many people's lives throughout the Third World. But if the struggle is for freedom, the kind of freedoms enjoyed by those of us lucky enough to live in the West, then we will prevail. So I say again, Question: Why is the States so unpopular in the world (yet the world would move there in a heartbeat)? Answer: 'It's the foreign policy, stupid'

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:46:23 (EDT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: BBC Chief Sorry Over Anti-US TV Audience Message:

The extra irony being that legacy of British occupation and colonisation proabably had as much or more to do with it anyway. Ahh, but that's last century. Cheers Peter

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:13:58 (EDT) From: PatD Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Yeah I had to turn it off.... Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:31:46 (EDT) From: PatD Email: None To: PatD Subject: Re: Yeah I had to turn it off.... Message:

Sorry about the double post , I keep on doing that. I was incensed at that & so was everyone else I knew who had the misfortune to tune into it. Poor man having to listen to to that at such a time. Many in the audience were young women in chador : this seems to be a kind of radical chic trip here amongst 2nd & 3rd generation immigrants. The others were ordinary morons with no sensitivity. Be assured that the majority here are with America all the way , whatever mistakes will be made. love Pat Dorrity

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