Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 16, 2001 To: Sep 19, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Deborah -:- BBC Chief Sorry Over Anti-US TV Audience -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:10:16 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- shouting at the ambassador -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:53:38 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: shouting at the ambassador -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:57:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- YO! DEBS! -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 05:09:06 (EDT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Re: BBC Chief Sorry Over Anti-US TV Audience -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:46:23 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Yeah I had to turn it off.... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:13:58 (EDT)
__ __ PatD -:- Re: Yeah I had to turn it off.... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:31:46 (EDT)

michael donner -:- wondering -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:25:03 (EDT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Re: wondering -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:43:41 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: wondering -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:57:56 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- In addition -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:10:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- You know what, Scott? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:04:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Thanks for sharing. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:22:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- My support to Scott and Cynthia both -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:27:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:11:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I'm Sorry, Scott.. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:02:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- No problem. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:11:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :: be prepared :: -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:48:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I'm glad you brought that up Scott -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:35:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- You better temper your tough talk, Scott... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:51:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Like that would do any good. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:41:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Like that would do any good. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:49:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: In addition -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:38:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: In addition -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:36:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: In addition -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:27:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- On another note. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:52:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- It always comes down to this, doesn't it Scott. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:00:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The shape of things. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:09:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Like John T, I wish you a speedy recovery [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:58:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: In addition -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:46:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- How can you possibly know this? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:13:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ KatieH -:- Living at ground zero -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:28:28 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- ::nice post, Michael:: -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:21:12 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- that was supposed to be marked NT [nt] -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:23:04 (EDT)
__ Tim G -:- Re: wondering -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:33:02 (EDT)
Roger eDrek -:- I'm gonna buy me the biggest SUV I can -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:14:11 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: I'm gonna buy me the biggest SUV I can -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:12:06 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: I'm gonna buy me the biggest SUV I can -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:04:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- No, Scott... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:20:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: No, Scott... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:15:32 (EDT)

Stonor -:- To Deborah (OT) -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:45:20 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Got your message -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:23:25 (EDT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Re: Got your message -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:05:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Stoner, let's make amends... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:15:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- That's sweet Cynthia -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:57:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You know, Deborah.. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:22:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: You know, Deborah.. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:41:59 (EDT)

JohnT -:- The war we now face -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 09:42:56 (EDT)
__ Annie -:- letter from an Afghani-American -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:55:27 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Afghanistan is like Nazi Germany -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:41:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ CNN -:- Bush Gave Taliban $43 Million in 5/01 -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 02:46:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Not quite - the aid was not to the Taliban -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:50:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- The difference between the two -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:46:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CNN -:- Re: The difference between the two -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:54:04 (EDT)
__ __ PatD -:- Thanks Annie [nt] -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:45:28 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- another Internet-Laden chestnut -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:40:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Annie -:- Re: another Internet-Laden chestnut -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:13:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: another Internet-Laden chestnut -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:01:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :: Godwin Violation, too :: -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:35:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- Re: :: Godwin Violation, too :: -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:06:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ PatD -:- Propaganda ? Surely not . -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:07:15 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Afghanistan -- who cares? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:40:07 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- This is a must read :( -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:25:48 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks Annie -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:11:17 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- The lesser of two evils -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:36:28 (EDT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Sounds like a cult to me! -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:05:13 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Incidentally, did you know this? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:24:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Know? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:52:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Credible evidence -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:16:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CNN -:- Re: Credible evidence -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 02:22:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Are you kidding me -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:35:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- No kidding and -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:14:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Incidentally, did you know this? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:26:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Hi Cynthia (OT) -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:38:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- More Class, Deb... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:21:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Dave, the Telegraph... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:28:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Here's my sources -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:03:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Dave, the Telegraph... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:41:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You missed the point, Deb -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:11:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Gerry..Brit newspapers -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:14:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Gerry..Brit newspapers -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:43:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Pacifica Radio -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:23:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Thanks very much guys. [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:26:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- You're right-I missed the point -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:38:50 (EDT)

Mel Bourne -:- Pakistan's dilemma -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 09:28:33 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Not quite so simple -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:39:31 (EDT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Not quite so simple -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:59:52 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- I don't think they'll do it -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:34:48 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Pakistan's dilemma -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:19:40 (EDT)
__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Pakistan's dilemma -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:58:13 (EDT)

Auden -:- Sept. 1, 1939 -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 07:31:02 (EDT)

unknown -:- in matters of revenge -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 07:25:49 (EDT)
__ ()) -:- Smart one, get this())())()) -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:46:41 (EDT)
__ dv -:- In matters of justice -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:38:01 (EDT)

don p. -:- sant ji : a suspect -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 06:14:57 (EDT)
__ It's too bad your mind -:- even thinks in that way -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 06:23:04 (EDT)
__ __ SILENT SOLDIER -:- no racial issue, a fact. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:31:31 (EDT)

Earth Man, a world citizen -:- The Solution -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:27:08 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Yeah, that will work, yeah... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:39:18 (EDT)
__ __ Just relax and go do the dishes -:- Re: Yeah, that will work, yeah... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:04:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- You must by psychic... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:28:31 (EDT)

btdt -:- anybody catch this? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:39:50 (EDT)
__ yeah -:- catch this? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:34:38 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- It was me... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:27:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Annie -:- ? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:31:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: ? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:51:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- Re: ? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:07:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Go Away, Annie... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:27:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: ? Annie is your middle name Cerise? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:32:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- Re: ? Annie is your middle name Cerise? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:38:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SILVIA -:- SHUT THE FUCK UP! -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:25:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Rawatists are not welcome -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:49:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- Not exceeding 40 characters -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:13:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Correct reading Annie. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:26:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- incorrect reading -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:45:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- That's it! SC, you Creep! -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:31:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Homophobic creep and fake -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:57:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Not exceeding 40 characters -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:09:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- answers & a question -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:06:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- PS: I'm a fag, queer, a poofter, perv etc -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:18:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Wow, Annie - you're for real -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:09:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Annie's an old friend of mine -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 02:06:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Oops }) -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:50:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- friends in high places -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:45:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- agreed Annie -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:03:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Any friend of yours, Jim -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:04:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Person's a liar PatC -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:44:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- why bother, Pat? -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:09:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Oh, you know me, Gerry -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:25:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Annie-not here -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:49:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- Re: Annie-not here -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:03:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Annie- you are a fuckin liar -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:42:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Deborah Threatens! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:45:49 (EDT)


Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:10:16 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: BBC Chief Sorry Over Anti-US TV Audience
Message:
Updated: Sun, Sep 16 7:46 AM EDT

LONDON (Reuters) - The head of the British Broadcasting Corporation, Greg Dyke, apologized Saturday for broadcasting a live discussion program in which audience members blamed U.S. foreign policy for Tuesday's terror attacks.

More than 2,000 viewers complained after seeing the former U.S. Ambassador to Britain, Philip Lader, brought close to tears after attempts to express his sadness over the attacks were shouted down by people expressing anti-American views.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:53:38 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: shouting at the ambassador
Message:
Debs,

I saw that program, but did not take too much notice of it, and I hope you don't either. People here are scared that we are officially fighting a war alongside America. It is felt not to be a war of our making, and if taxation without representation is tyranny, how do you think conscription without representation feels?

The Ambassador would not accept that American conduct in the wider world could have had anything at all to do with the attack. This is not a view that is widely shared in the world (see the letter from the one-time British Ambassador to Nato that I've typed up and posted on Anything Goes), and it is not a view that a substantial part of the audience of that TV program found reassuring.

The first casualty in war is the truth. The truth is that the world envies American freedom and dynamism -- and abhors many aspects of American foreign policy. To say this is NOT anti-American (though maybe it is anti-militaristic-rednecks). Don't let your politicians bully and lie and use emotional blackmail to confuse the issue.

America will be defeated in this war if it is to be on behalf of the military-industrial complex that has impacted so harshly on many people's lives throughout the Third World. But if the struggle is for freedom, the kind of freedoms enjoyed by those of us lucky enough to live in the West, then we will prevail.

So I say again,
Question: Why is the States so unpopular in the world (yet the world would move there in a heartbeat)?

Answer: 'It's the foreign policy, stupid'

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:57:48 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: shouting at the ambassador
Message:
Hi JohnT,

Haven't talked with you in awhile. I didn't see the BBC report. I just
went to the site and found this and thought it would make a good post. I don' know how it came across and I am curious how other folks perceived it. So much to take in right now, JohnT, I just don't know what the hell is going on.

I don't have the history so I'm trying to play catch-up and au courrant at the same time while piecing my life together, waiting for my delayed student loan, starting a new semester, and trying to sort out the Maha bin Laden Jihad we just experienced.

Is it me, or do you have an eerie feeling about the surrendipity and parallel of Maha's Jihad attack w/CAC.

Email me sometime, there's things I'd like to discuss with you.

Thanks for your candid feedback, I have no comment, just need to gather info and share opinions right now.

Fondly,

Deborah

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 05:09:06 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: jtucker@caf.charitynet.org
To: Deborah
Subject: YO! DEBS!
Message:
Email me sometime, there's things I'd like to discuss with you.

I've just checked, but I don't seem to have your address on my email here. Drop me a line ASAP and I'll reply (UK office hours)

jtucker@caf.charitynet.org

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:46:23 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: BBC Chief Sorry Over Anti-US TV Audience
Message:
The extra irony being that legacy of British occupation and colonisation proabably had as much or more to do with it anyway. Ahh, but that's last century.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:13:58 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Yeah I had to turn it off....
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:31:46 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Yeah I had to turn it off....
Message:
Sorry about the double post , I keep on doing that.

I was incensed at that & so was everyone else I knew who had the misfortune to tune into it.

Poor man having to listen to to that at such a time.

Many in the audience were young women in chador : this seems to be a kind of radical chic trip here amongst 2nd & 3rd generation immigrants. The others were ordinary morons with no sensitivity.

Be assured that the majority here are with America all the way , whatever mistakes will be made.

love Pat Dorrity

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:25:03 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: All
Subject: wondering
Message:
i have been wondering lately what it is that 'they' want from us (westerners generally i think) when they do this kind of terrorism.

generally i think that the fundamentalists in the mid east think of americans and westerners as vulgar, greedy, secular, evil (not to mention non-muslim pagans). and putting aside the idea that they might want to convert us all to their brand of religion...at minimum they want us out of their neighborhood, out of their lives and to stop influencing them and their children with what they believe to be evil ideas.

they have tried many ways to get us out of their neighborhood and lives. we have not left and do not seem to intend to leave ever...rather we say that we want to bring our lifestyles and politics further into the region of the world.

they see us as a neighborhood bully and have resorted to only a few options that they see they have against our massive technological advantage and our insistance to stay and continue to influence theri children into the future.

i am not justifying their actions, just imagining their mind set.

so, will we leave the region and stop trying to influence them with our values? no!

will they stop trying to get us out of their neighborhood and stop trying to get us to stop with our value influencing? no!

what are the implications of this impass? this is what i am wondering now.

naturally the terrorist action is meant to goad the bully into further action...to show the moderates in the region our true nature (so they claim). and there will be action in the region and this action is expected by the planner of this terror for the purpose of creating a climate for continued civil war in s. arabia, egypt, tunisia, morocco, yemen and of course pakiastan.

the fundamentalists, muslim brotherhood, etc have been gaining influence in these countries over the past years and this will be further fuel to the fire of their zealousness.

is the west primarialy like the greedy bully in their neighborhood mostly after their oil? do we righteously promote our values as if they are better values then theirs (ie attitudte towards women have been mentioned alot in other threads)?

and is isreal part of the same enemy/bully in their minds? will isreal leave the region? of course not. so? what are the implications of all these knowns...the obvious situation on the ground there.?

the other part of this that i have been wondering about lately is re' the strange bedfellows these situaiton create and what are we about to do now that will bit us in the ass later.

for example, in the effort to get the russians/commies out of afganistan, we financed and help train the telaban and specifically bin laden via pakistan and other places. now the teleban is bitting us in the ass.

it is easy to see that in hindsight. but what is being proposed now that will have this effect in 5-10 years?

what kind of compromises are willing to be made now to create a coalitition to fight terrorism? will the U>S> stop calling russia's fight in chechnya genocide? will they give up the missle defense system to get russian help? will they actually give the 30 billion $ forgiveness of pakistan's debt for their cooperation? what will be given to the chinese for their cooperaton so close to them around pakistan? what promises will be made to Iran for their cooperation...etc. etc. etc.

frankly, it reminds me of how one lie always must lead to another.

will the drilling for oil go forward now in the alaskan wilderness? will the domestic agenda of many be put on hold while problems fundamentally get worse...in health care, education etc.??

leads me to think that living within our means, within our resource is not such a bad idea after all. will we question our consumerism that drives the world politic? or is our continuous consumerism part of the way of life that must be defended?

these are some of my thoughts...what do you all think? thanks for the forum.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:43:41 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: wondering
Message:
Hi there,

The things you raise in your post are fairly difficult.

My children are often angry as a way to avoid feeling sad. And they have a lot to feel sad about in their funny little lives. So often their anger makes no sense until I can see what they might be sad about. And they are not that different from me and my freinds in that feeling angry is generally preferable to feeling sad or despairing. I've found my job with them at these times to be able to simly listen and have them get to know that they have been heard and that their feelings are acceptable. Often they are sad about some decision I've come to or other limit that I've set. The content of their emotional outpourings is generally pretty terrible - but it is congruent with what they are feeling.

The other thing that came to me in response to your post was about realising there are many countries that expereince that type of pain and fear on a regular basis. Most recently - I was thinking of Belgrade and what it must have been like for the people living there during the NATO bombing campaign - or the people in that other smaller part of the same country being bombed by so called Albanian seperatists.

I think your ability to reverse roles with the other party is pretty good. Well done. Seeing the world through others eyes is essential to create discourse and dialogue.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:57:56 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: wondering
Message:
Mike:

will they stop trying to get us out of their neighborhood and stop trying to get us to stop with our value influencing? no!

Well, some already have given it up. My former roommate, a muslim who would abruptly halt a conversation to retire to his room in prayer, and who still possessed some of the endearing qualities of the Jordanian village culture, doesn't want us out. He can also express the plight of his people, dissatisfied with the monarchy and the inability of that politically protected entity to listen to its people. He knows. But does he want us to leave? No, definitely not.

Suggesting there's an impasse is also to suggest that radical Islamists have an implacable hold on the Islamic religion, which is by no means the case. As one Islamic scholar observed recently, Islam itself was highjacked by Khomeini and the passengers have yet to put up any sort of real resistance. If we play our cards right there way well be a backlash within Islam. The Palestinian Authority has been much more effective against Islamic Jihad, Hamas etc. than Israeli intelligence recently, so there is a nascent movement within the Islamic world for a civilation. Their Rennaisance and Reformation are just around the corner.

To be effective we'll have to avoid the typical American weakness of seeing the unfamiliar as a monolithic threat. Alexander conquered Afghanistan 2400 years ago by piecemealing it, and establishing alliances as he worked his way through the terrain, and by heeding the enormous tactical brilliance of his staff in using the terrain and demography to their advantage. It would be a good thing if we learned to appreciate the Irish idea of a hero. Not everyone that opposes authority is the enemy.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:10:58 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: In addition
Message:
Mike:

I should also add that the fact that the Muslim world is not monolithic creates a promising tension with regard to figures like Bin Laden. I don't know what sort of believable commitment he could make that would assure all the governments and peoples of the Middle East that he would do no such thing to them, or that no terrorist organization would, in some uncertain future, develop targets of opportunity within Islam. The pragmatic human response is to see a sea change in the power as a threat, a response that is even more probable for a tradition-bound culture. Not to make light of our own, but I would say Bin Laden has a formidable task--even an impossible one.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:04:49 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You know what, Scott?
Message:
I'm getting pretty sick of your superior intellectual attitude.

I'm a workin' class woman. I didn't get no edukation. But still I'm purty smart.

Take a breath and speak with little words. They work better, for us ignorint folk.

You don't know everything, or are you goomraji?

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:22:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks for sharing.
Message:
Cynthia:

I don't feel superior, so perhaps you're reading something into what I'm saying. But, big words or not, if you think we'll get out of this situation without dealing with complexity you'll see millions die... on 'our' side and 'theirs.' That's what Bin Laden wants, and from his perspective he has us exactly where he wants us. Win win. He could be right. That simple enuf fer yah?

And I'll express myself any damn way I like, and feel I have to. If you don't like it tune to another channel.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:27:03 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: My support to Scott and Cynthia both
Message:
Scott T -- being accused of using 'big words' must be a deja vu for you. I ran across some ugly posts to you when perusing the archives a few months ago. Maybe I'm a nerd too. You are very articulate and I appreciate the way you express yourself, even when I don't agree. Sometimes you hit the nail on the head for me.

Cynthia -- I appreciate your from the gut honesty. You are A-1 in my book, girl.

As long as we appreciate and respect each other, and ignore nasty troll droppings, I think we'll be OK.

WHAT CAN I SAY!!!

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:11:49 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:02:29 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I'm Sorry, Scott..
Message:
I shouldn't have struck out at you. I am upset and scared.

Say whatever you want, I am not here to censor you.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:11:40 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: No problem.
Message:
Cynthia:

My landlady is pretty raw too. Depression and fear. Reach out to someone. Help. It's essential. You can donate money through several places. I think Radio Shack (of all places) is a collection center for monetary donations for the NYC effort. Check with local churches about other stuff. They need old clothes and things at Ground Hero. Talk. We've all got something to share. And it's all important. Sit down and write out exactly what you were doing when you got the news about the WTC, and what you did afterward. How you felt. Do it every couple of days, to refresh your memory. We'll get through this. It may be what we've been preparing for all our lives. Who knows?

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:48:16 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: :: be prepared ::
Message:
We'll get through this. It may be what we've been preparing for all our lives. Who knows?

---

I've prepared a lot of lives, but they always come out
tasting just like chicken.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:35:50 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I'm glad you brought that up Scott
Message:
We have several places to donate here. Bank of America, other banks, United Way (NOT my first choice but who cares at times like this).
I'm sure it's the same everywhere in the US.
I did and it helped me. Positive action always helps to work through depression, shock, fear.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:51:30 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You better temper your tough talk, Scott...
Message:

[ bin laden has nukes ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:41:47 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Like that would do any good.
Message:
How would tempering tough talk do anything to forestall a nuclear attack by a terrorist. Anyway, a nuclear attack on the US would require enormous resources, beyond even what UBL can acquire. If he had that capability *in the US* he'd have used it. And biological weapons are easier and cheaper anyway. And he has those too. 99% chance he won't or can't use them here, but he might if his plan works. That's why I think we ought to regard this as a complex situation, and attempt to thwart his plan of alliances. I think he has underestimated the US. Hope so.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:49:39 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Like that would do any good.
Message:
How would tempering tough talk do anything to forestall a nuclear attack by a terrorist.

I'm thinking you might be in a think tank or in some advisory capacity. Tempering the tough talk could go a long way in defusing this situation, in my opinion.

Anyway, a nuclear attack on the US would require enormous resources, beyond even what UBL can acquire.

Why? Bin Ladin allegedly has twenty nuclear devices, some of the suitcase variety. Some of these are said to be already in the US. What's the difficulty?

If he had that capability *in the US* he'd have used it.

I don't know how you can say this with any sort of confidence. This approaches magical thinking if you ask me. Perhaps wishful thinking. I sure hope you are right.

And biological weapons are easier and cheaper anyway. And he has those too. 99% chance he won't or can't use them here, but he might if his plan works.

Again, how can you know this? Do you have inside knowledge of UBL's plan? Are you a terrorist? (snicker)

That's why I think we ought to regard this as a complex situation, and attempt to thwart his plan of alliances. I think he has underestimated the US. Hope so.

Of course it's a complex situation. And I imagine he already has his alliance in place, no?

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:38:51 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: In addition
Message:
hi scott, i sure understand that islam is not monolithic and true, many in the area want us to stay around and support moderation. my point is re the fundamentalists and i believe that will use the military response that is coming to the area to further their attempts to destablilize that countries i mentioned...so minimum, there will be years of civil type war in those places to come...

and certanly my hope is that moderation prevails...there and in north america as well.

the cycle will likely continue with the likes of iran supporting the 'northern alliance' and pakistan supporting the telaban. etc. all parties seem willing to sleep with anyone who is against their enemy and once that enemy is defeated then the struggle for supremecy will continue...ie in afganistan once the russians were out and numerous other historical incidences...alliance of usa and russian in ww2 and then conflict after...etc. seems a pattern that i cannot see much preparation for on the part of u..s. policy planning. are we ready for involvement in that kind of chaos in that region for years nd years to come?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:36:08 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: In addition
Message:
Mike:

hi scott, i sure understand that islam is not monolithic and true, many in the area want us to stay around and support moderation. my point is re the fundamentalists and i believe that will use the military response that is coming to the area to further their attempts to destablilize that countries i mentioned...so minimum, there will be years of civil type war in those places to come...

Beyond my capacity to predict. Maybe civil war. Reformation is a more appropriate concept, I think. I'm just guessing, mostly based on the writings of a fellow named Ernest Gellner. I'd tell you more, but don't want to piss Cynthia off too much.

and certanly my hope is that moderation prevails...there and in north america as well.

Well moderation is out, I'm afraid.

The latest on the alliance thing is that Iran will go with the Northern Alliance and Pakistan will go with us. Only 5% voted in favor or radical Islamic candidates in the most recent Pakistanian election. So, effectively we'll be on the same side, for the time being, though Pakistan is probably a more reliable allie than Iran. Good as it gets. The Northern Alliance aren't much better than the Taliban, from what I hear.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:27:25 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: In addition
Message:
are we ready for involvement in that kind of chaos in that region for years and years to come?

I'm sure we'll see Private Dr Talkington in uniform any day now...

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:52:59 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: On another note.
Message:
Gerry:

You're either nuts, or depressed. My bet is that it's the latter. Stop blaming me, and have a good cry with someone. If Sam wants to put a uniform an a 54 year old with mild arthritis, well I'm in a lot better shape than you and I'm about done with my cycling career... Planning on joining up, are yah?

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:00:31 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: It always comes down to this, doesn't it Scott.
Message:
Gerry:

You're either nuts, or depressed.

Yeah, anyone who disagrees with your war mongering is crazy, right? A popular definition of 'nuts' is doing the same things over and over and expecting different results. Kinda like US foreign policy.

And Scott, you also have a degree in psychology? Are you a clinician too? Depression is a clinical term. Please don't ascribe that to me unless you know what you are talking about and have thoroughly examined me.

My bet is that it's the latter. Stop blaming me, and have a good cry with someone.

I'm not blaming you personally, although it is the people with a similiar mindset that get us into these messes in the first place. This whole thing didn't happen in a vacuum, did it? Why not exam the reasons why, before pounding the war drums and howling like wounded banshees.

If Sam wants to put a uniform an a 54 year old with mild arthritis, well I'm in a lot better shape than you

How can you possibly know this?

and I'm about done with my cycling career... Planning on joining up, are yah?

Hmmm. Worthless (and childish) provocation. Now why in hell would some like myself, who is opposed to this neaderthal knee jerk reaction and the militarism and corporate greed which led us here in the first place, sign up to join the killing frenzy?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:09:38 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The shape of things.
Message:
Gerry:

I'm in better shape than most people, but maybe your the exception. If you'd like to have a little 100 mile bike race, or 26 mile row, we could put it to the test.

And as far as this not having happened in a vacuum, you seem to be able to feed conspiracy theories on pretty thin air. But what does that have to do with anything anyway? Unless, of course, you're suggesting that the act was *justified*?

And I don't hear anyone getting particularly hysterical except for those marvelous heroes at ground zero sobbing quite understandably that the people who did this ought to be killed. Killed and then some, I'd say. Maybe we ought to bring back being drawn and quartered, for mass murderers. Maybe death on a nice comfy cot isn't sufficient deterrent. But it would be a fine policy to create a vacuum to choke these mass murdering punks on their own innards. I'm all for that. Not even vaguely conflicted. Good suggestion.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:58:42 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Like John T, I wish you a speedy recovery [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:46:07 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: In addition
Message:
If you're right about your nuke scenario, I'm at the next ground zero. So kiss my ass.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:13:29 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: How can you possibly know this?
Message:
If you're right about your nuke scenario, I'm at the next ground zero. So kiss my ass.

Maybe Seattle will get it next. Who knows? That's why it's called 'terrorism.'

I'll pass on the ass kissing even though I'd bet, as fit as you are, you've the tightest ass in DC. You definitely have the tightest ass of anyone on this forum.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:28:28 (EDT)
From: KatieH
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Living at ground zero
Message:
I hear you Scott - I lived with that scenario most of my life. It's not easy (and you can't 'abstract' it) - and it hasn't been easy for me to get over it. Hope you are OK.

Love to you,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:21:12 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: ::nice post, Michael::
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:23:04 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: that was supposed to be marked NT [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:33:02 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: wondering
Message:
Hi Michael and others
Thanx for your very relevant thoughts.
I am sending out some musings in the wide sense on this tragic event and it's great opportunity.
If you or any others would like to be on my mailing list please Email me at the above address. I intend to continue the mailings that include comments that come in. I would like to send out yours. I of course do not mention authorship unless you wish.
With Love and sympathy to all of you who are near this disaster
Carpe Diem
Tim
[ Page Link ]
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:14:11 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: I'm gonna buy me the biggest SUV I can
Message:
When this shit hits the fan we're all going be living a Mad Max Road Warrior lifestyle and I wanna have me the biggest, baddest gas guzzlingest SUV on the road.

It always comes down to lubricants and oils.

I say we tit-for-tat them Arabs and stomp on the brake of their economy by avoiding their damn oil and instead harvest oil the old fashioned way - whaling on the high seas. We'll show 'em! Amerikan know-how.

Sarcastically yours!

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:12:06 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: I'm gonna buy me the biggest SUV I can
Message:
Hi Rog,

I think the shit has already hit the fan. If the multinational corporations had some folks with a brain in their head they would have developed autos,(at least) that could run on corn oil by now.

Our dependency on the Middle East for oil is the root of this evil, and it sits at the feet of the likes of the shrubs. And for me, living in Vermont, a rural place, well, I'm just waiting for the big one to blow off and see how many folks start running up here for shelter.

You get that SUV, pal, you're gonna need it. I scared. Very scared. We can discuss politics 'til the cows come in for milkin' but with folks on the major networks talkin about nukin' all them aarabs, and terrorists, well, I'm glad I'm livin' in the woods.

I may even buy myself a gun, which until this day, I too 'sceared of havin'.

And forgit about them whales, they's endangered and scarce. Talk about fuckin' assholes, we got em in spades.

Sincerely Yours!

This is one motherfuckin' son-of-a-bitchin bad ass sitiation.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:04:23 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: I'm gonna buy me the biggest SUV I can
Message:
This is one motherfuckin' son-of-a-bitchin bad ass sitiation.

Accurate, but not much help. Do you belong to the nation of backwoods Vermont or something now? Do something (if you haven't already) and you won't be quite so bitter and demoralized. In NOVA we've been close enough (the Pentagon is barely 12 miles) that the whole place feels involved. There were so many blood donors they started turning people away. They need a lot of stuff in NYC. Mostly clothes and things. Just do it. If it doesn't help, I'll eat my hat... and it's got bird poop on it.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:20:33 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: No, Scott...
Message:
My words were in response to Roger. I don't own guns and I moved here from Connecticut.

I can't give blood, I have no money to give, I recently gave away or threw away all my old clothes when I recently moved.

It's really your name, Scott that triggers me. My premie boyfriend's name in 1976+ is Scott and I guess that's what's going on with me and you.

I am emotionally drained. That's no excuse for insiteful words, just a reason...

Best,
cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:15:32 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: No, Scott...
Message:
Cynthia:

Funny how names trigger stuff like that. Every time I see Olley Lane I think of Oliver North instead of Stan Laurel's friend.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:45:20 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To Deborah (OT)
Message:
Your server is rejecting my email to you - it happened once before when I emailed Helen, and is probably only temporary. Wrt Helen's email address, in the interim you could try looking her up in the university directory - women studies dept. Talk to you soon, I hope.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:23:25 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Got your message
Message:
Anna, hope you're doing well. Jesus, you're so close to NY. How is Montreal faring under the circumstances? I just read the headline in a newspaper (maybe the National Post) that there were 80,000 mourners on Parliment Hill yesterday w/3minutes of silence.

Apparently they released 3 balloons tied together (white/red/blue) that caught a northerly wind and blew South.

The only sound during that 3 minutes was a baby crying. So sad.

Take care,

Deborah

p.s. Let me know what's going on. You can use the forum to communicate about that, I'm sure nobody will be upset. Try sending to email to someone else who could fwd it to me. OKI DOKE. I'd love to hear from you.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:05:58 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Got your message
Message:
Hi Deborah,

I just sent your email to my sister, and she will forward it to you. (I hope there's no further problem, at least she uses a different server).

As you know, I don't go out much, and am working at a school near me this year, so I'm not too sure. As I wrote to you, I'm lucky that my students are beginners and don't want to talk about it - apparently there were some problems in at least one class. We observed the 3 minutes of silence at 12:20 on Friday. All my students took it very seriously except one problematic jerk. The sadness in the air was tangible, and at least one woman was crying. I saw the pic of the people at the service in Ottawa ... so many people!

I've heard that the night scene is dead and what little there is is very subdued. And there sure aren't many airplanes around yet.

Apart from the obvious, I don't know what to think of it all. My cousin in TO said she had heard from a European friend that Toronto's airport and Vancouver had also been targeted, but I find that somewhat hard to believe. At this point I am concerned about what happens from here on in, and I'm hoping that things don't go from very bad to very much worse.

Love,

Anna

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:15:59 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Stoner, let's make amends...
Message:
Anna,

Look, I gave you a really hard time way back when before all this shit happened.

I have absolutely not problem offering you an olive branch.

This is not time to make and keep enemies.

Just wanted to say that...

Hope you are okay,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:57:47 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: That's sweet Cynthia
Message:
I want Anna to feel welcome here.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:22:40 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: You know, Deborah..
Message:
This is such a scary time for me I don't want to alienate anyone who has a good heart. I gave Anna a very difficult time, during a different time here on the board.

This is not a time to make enemies or keep enemies. (Except for the fucking asshole premies who are hell bent on distruption). And Anna is sincere.

I have already called a couple of people in my life from whom I've been estranged, who I love. This is not a time for hate.

But I won't tolerate any disruption by premies and their satsanga.

Btw, were you at Deca?

I'm not very good at keeping correspondence via email, but if you want, email me at sylviecyn@yahoo.com.

Love to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:41:59 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: You know, Deborah..
Message:
Hi Cynthia, I agree with you. I've let go of a lot of stuff as well. But the mindset in people like SC and all his psycho-personalities and the fact that Maha could be resemble the same level of cruelness towards us for something HE is deplorable.

But the petty stuff is different. Anna is a good person. I'm glad you reached out to her. She has a good friend who works at UVIc that I am going to meet with. Her friend is part of the Women Studies faculty. Something you seem to be interested in.

Yes, I spent 1 year off and on at the hangar. Working in Administration. So my job was to assist many of the clients as you know they were stationed for there for months while waiting for their plane or their bosses plane to get refurbished.

I photocopied the Boeing manual (illegally) when the Boeing team was there. I went for lunch w/clients sometimes. I was good friends with LeRoy who would call me in to work when extra help was needed and when he knew the CLIENT would be around cuz he knew I was a darshan freak and he liked me.
I used to go by the complex a lot. I was friends with Peter Dettmers, Bruce Asai, Odie, Jinda and many others that I can't recall.
I was also given tips when BigHead would be practicing his Holi gun so I'd hustle over there.

Stay tuned for the next exciting episode of Cult Days of our Lives.

See you, take a rest. We'll be chatting.

Lots of love,

Deborah

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 09:42:56 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The war we now face
Message:
... is surely best discussed at 'Anything Goes'
[ The war we now face ]
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:55:27 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: letter from an Afghani-American
Message:
<<
I've been hearing a lot of talk about 'bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age.' Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but 'we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?' Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we 'have the belly to do what must be done.'
And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.
I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My hatred comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan.
They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden,think Hitler. And when you think 'the people of Afghanistan' think 'the Jews in the concentration camps.'
It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of 'bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age'. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already.
Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering.
Level their houses? Done.
Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.
Eradicate their hospitals? Done.
Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide.

Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of 'having the belly to do what needs to be done' they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?

Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

In Peace,
Tamim Ansary

End of Forwarded Message>>

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:41:03 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Afghanistan is like Nazi Germany
Message:
Immeasurable cruelty by the ruling Nazi Taliban upon the people of Afghanistan. If we go in their and take out the Taliban, we'd be doing a service to humanity. See above link.
[ What it's like in Afghanistan ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 02:46:46 (EDT)
From: CNN
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Bush Gave Taliban $43 Million in 5/01
Message:
In May, 2001, Pres. Bush gave $43 million to the Taliban. I remember hearing that the rationale behind giving the Taliban $43 million was that Bush liked the Taliban's intolerance toward drug use, and so gave the money to help stymie poppy farming, thereby striking another blow in the drug war. No gratitude there. Wonder where the $43 mil really went?
[ Lest Bush Forget ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:50:52 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: CNN
Subject: Not quite - the aid was not to the Taliban
Message:
From http://www.usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/usandun/01051766.htm

QUOTE

Powell emphasized that the aid is distributed through the UN and non-government organizations, and not to the Taliban or other warring Afghan factions. 'It bypasses the Taliban, who have done little to alleviate the suffering of the Afghan people and much to exacerbate it,' he said.

Following are the remarks by the secretary prior to the press conference on the new aid:

Humanitarian Assistance to Afghanistan
U.S. Department of State
Secretary Colin L. Powell
Statement at Press Briefing on New U.S. Humanitarian Assistance for Afghanistan
May 17, 2001

Secretary Powell: Good morning, everyone. Afghanistan is in crisis. After more than 20 years of war, and now the third year of a devastating drought, the country is on the verge of a widespread famine. Nearly 4 million Afghans are at risk. If the international community does not take immediate action, countless deaths and terrible tragedy are certain to follow.

At the direction of President Bush, I am today announcing a package of $43 million in new humanitarian assistance for the people of Afghanistan, including 65,000 tons of wheat, $5 million in complementary food commodities, and $10 million in other livelihood and food security programs within Afghanistan. We also expect to soon announce additional assistance to Afghan refugees.

Even before this latest commitment, the United States was by far the largest provider of humanitarian assistance for Afghans. Last year, we provided about $114 million in aid. With this new package, our humanitarian assistance to date this year will reach $124 million. This includes over 200,000 tons of wheat.

We will continue to look for ways to provide more assistance for Afghans, including those farmers who have felt the impact of the ban on poppy cultivation, a decision by the Taliban that we welcome.

We distribute our assistance in Afghanistan through international agencies of the United Nations and nongovernmental organizations. We provide our aid to the people of Afghanistan, not to Afghanistan's warring factions. Our aid bypasses the Taliban, who have done little to alleviate the suffering of the Afghan people, and indeed have done much to exacerbate it. We hope the Taliban will act on a number of fundamental issues that separate us: their support for terrorism; their violation of internationally recognized human rights standards, especially their treatment of women and girls; and their refusal to resolve Afghanistan's civil war through a negotiated settlement.

UN sanctions against the Taliban are smart sanctions and do not hurt the Afghan people, nor do these sanctions affect the flow of humanitarian assistance for Afghans. America seeks to help the neediest, wherever they may be. I call upon the international community to mobilize and respond generously to help avert this looming humanitarian catastrophe in Afghanistan.

Secretary General Annan and I have discussed this situation before, and I will ask for his further assistance to raise the international community's awareness about this crisis and to impress upon the international community the necessity to respond with energy and with dispatch.

Colleagues of mine from different parts of the government, as well as including the United States Agency for International Development, will be available to provide more detailed information, should you have questions.

Thank you very much.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:46:44 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The difference between the two
Message:
The difference between the two is neatly summed up in the following piece from www.AfghanSolidarity.com:

The Taliban is not representative of the Afghan people or Islam,
nor is it the only aggressor towards the Afghan people. It is,
however, the most powerful militia in Afghanistan, controlling 90
percent of the country, with the aid of many outside agents. The
Taliban have recently made headlines around the world for the
destruction of the Buddhist statues in Bamiyan, and for forcing
Hindus and Sikhs to wear labels on their clothing. Unfortunately,
there are many more atrocities in addition to the aforementioned
that go unnoticed and underreported in the international media.
The militia has forced women to a status of non-humans
without a single basic right. The Taliban aims to 'cleanse'
Afghanistan of certain populations and has committed mass
murders and rapes on particular ethnic groups. And while the
people suffer from brutality, disease, and starvation, the
warlords fill their pockets from opium trade, as Afghanistan is
now the number-one drug-producing nation in the world.

Afghans are not suffering solely within their borders: Over 4
million refugees are living in squalid conditions within Tajikistan,
Iran, and Pakistan. The refugee camps are set on hostile,
barren land, with sub-zero temperatures in the winter and
temperatures soaring past 100 degrees in the summer. The
camps (dubbed 'death camps') possess very little drinking
water, scarce food, and 'homes' consisting of tents made from
plastic sheets with rocks to anchor them. Many
Afghans-particularly children-die from dehydration, starvation,
and diarrheal diseases that could otherwise be easily cured or
prevented altogether. Even with all these ills, Afghans are still
fleeing their country in mass numbers, as their situation is
extremely dire. In the past several months alone, 800,000
Afghans fled their country only to live in these appalling
conditions.

Afghan Solidarity is asking the United States, the United Nations,
and the international community as a whole to protect and
defend those suffering from brutal forms of oppression.

THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY CAN NO LONGER
ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN. PLEASE SEND COVERAGE TO
HELP GET OUR MESSAGE OUT. LIVES MAY DEPEND ON IT.

For more information visit www.AfghanSolidarity.com

The article 'Live and let lie' at
http://www.omaid.com/english_section/curr_issue.htm#item5
is also interesting.

As is the site: http://www.stratfor.com/home/0109152000.htm.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:54:04 (EDT)
From: CNN
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: The difference between the two
Message:
Thanks, cq, for the information, although I have to ponder that, if the Taliban controls 90% of the country, they probably had a 90% chance of controlling the $43 million. God knows the civilian Afghani population needs the help, but I am reminded of some of the dictators and generals in different African nations commandeering all the aid which poured into their countries to assist the civilians.

Appalling.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:45:28 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Thanks Annie [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:40:21 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: another Internet-Laden chestnut
Message:

I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35
years I've never lost track of what's going on there.


---

I get tired of being tweaked by either of several 'sides'.
When shit like this gets forwarded over and over, it loses
any initial value it once held (if any). I've notice that I
almost always see this type of forward once in e-mail, and at
least once on one BBS/Forum or another. You can almost
predict what will have value, by the manner in which you
acquire it on the Internet.

No, what we have here isn't what it looks like; we have the
face of the little girl too despondent to brush the fly
crawling into her tear-duct off her face, on the Christian
Children's Fund commercial.

It is media-manipulation: it is theatre and propaganda.

If you can admit that, and you still find value in it -- well
good luck. There is very little information in propaganda.
It's more of an urban legend, in this case, than something
factual or worth reading.

I could be wrong, but I have no interest in doing the
research necessary to prove otherwise -- I only need consider
the source (how it came to my attention) to evaluate its
probable worth. Ah, but I repeat myself.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:13:26 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: another Internet-Laden chestnut
Message:
you wrote:
<by the manner in which you acquire it on the Internet.>>

Almost... you can predict what will have value to yourself.
You can only speculate about its value to others, but you can't know.
Propaganda? That's a a bit of a stretch. Do you spose the US government is behind it? CNN? BBC? Bin Laden? Whose propaganda?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:01:15 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Re: another Internet-Laden chestnut
Message:
And then Annie said:

you wrote:

&lt;&lt;You can almost predict what will have value,
by the manner in which you acquire it on the Internet.&gt;&gt;

Almost... you can predict what will have value to yourself.
You can only speculate about its value to others, but you can't know.

Propaganda? That's a a bit of a stretch. Do you spose the US government is behind it? CNN? BBC? Bin Laden? Whose propaganda?

---

Annie,

I don't understand what you're attempting to ask or to say.

There's far too much to read, and the board is poorly
organized to do so efficiently (which translates to the
burden of attempting to read it all, and to skim that
which seems less relevant).

If you'd like to raise this further, please consider ways
to postpone doing so, since I have a limited time budget
in which to attempt to give fair coverage to a myriad of
subjects, all which command my attention.

Now, just to reiterate a bit (it is faster for me to do so
than to attempt to parse your questions):

Again, I find most push media suspect (e-mail forwards are
push media). I find thoughts people typed, posted and I
was among the first to see them, inherently more valid
a form of communication (since the original context is,
by definition, preserved). Everything else (all push
media, in fact) looks like spam to me.

Just glancing over that material again -- to me this is the
identical problem to that of mailing virus warnings willy-
nilly in e-mail; if you really want to help, you refer them
to an authorative web site. That's the problem with these
aprocryphal stories; they may be an amalgam and entirely
fictional account -- there's no authority behind them; anyone
can type words and send them out. It's a whole different
matter when they use accountability, such as signing with
home address and phone number. The version I read (I did
not read yours) did not have proper attribution. Mass-
forwards almost never do; and even when they do, are often
Andy Rooney pieces -- or Dear Abbey columns. Processed,
ground so fine, any trace of grit in them has been strained
out of them; what's left is a pablum.

I hope that clarifies things a bit.

It's (push media and spam) a topology issue that seems to be
frequently overlooked.

{I can type all that without much thought, since I've
studied it extensively, and took only moments to regurgitate
here -- puzzle within a puzzle.}

-a0aji

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:35:48 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: :: Godwin Violation, too ::
Message:
Sole reference-points of authorship are, in the order they
appear in the original chestnut, as follows:

&gt; I am from Afghanistan
&gt; I've lived here for 35 years
&gt; My hatred comes from first hand experience.
&gt; Tamim Ansary

Now here's where it gets interesting, for a second:


When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think
Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think 'the people
of Afghanistan' think 'the Jews in the concentration
camps.'

This is a flagrant violation of Godwin's Law:

File: jargon.info, Node: Godwin's Law, Next: Godzillagram, Prev: gobble, Up: = \
G =

:Godwin's Law: /prov./ [Usenet] 'As a Usenet discussion grows
longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler
approaches one.' There is a tradition in many groups that, once
this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis
has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's
Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on
thread length in those groups.


-a0aji

[ Original Message (on this board) ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:06:04 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: :: Godwin Violation, too ::
Message:
In general I don't disagree about mass-email-forwardings, I get zillions of them, and rarely read or forward them. I do not doubt
this was a legitimate letter and you might want to look at the RAWA website or other Afghanistan websites if you are challenging the comparison to nazis. I don't think my post re: what has 'value'
was that difficult to understand. There are things which are
meaningful to some people and meaningless to others.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:07:15 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Propaganda ? Surely not .
Message:
You'd better get used to more than being tweaked in the times to come.

Hey , I'm on your side. BTW where were you guys when London was being bombed by the IRA ?

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:40:07 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Afghanistan -- who cares?
Message:
I'm not sure the Taliban are going to resist all that much. They're talking tough now, and say something like they want to see proof that Bin Laden is the perpetrator. Well, that could be a stonewall but it could also be a way out for them. Confronted with incontrovertible evidence they might just hand him over, especially if there's a carrot as well as stick. They'll find some obscure passage in the Koran to justify that. Religious cults always are able to find what they want in the scripture.

And I wouldn't go into Afghanistan anyway. I'd go into Iraq. To hell with Afghanistan. Let them stew behind their fortress. Absent the resources through fellow traveler governments like that of Saddam they'll languish and die. And if they try to leave, to emigrate somewhere to do some damage, cut their throats. Use their own geographic and logistical isolation against them, while we take care of business. I assure you the American people will feel pretty good as we show pictures of Hussein's captured biological and nuclear arsenal. Pretty good indeed.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:25:48 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: This is a must read :(
Message:
Whoever wrote this knew what they are talking about. What an amazing analogy.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:11:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Thanks Annie
Message:
Well-written, thoughtful post. Great stuff.

Even if we found where Bin Laden is and took him out with a surgical strike he would then become a martyr and ten more Bin Ladens would rise up to take his place.

The only longterm solution is diplomacy and in the short-term - defense, vigilance and new methods of protecting ourselves. The world will increasingly see terrorism not only by Muslim fanatics but other nuts. The world is getting smaller and people can get around easier and some nut can get hold of chemical, germ or nuclear weapons.

The civlized nations have to protect themselves from this. But offense is not the answer. Defense is and lots of diplomacy - winning over the minds of ordinary people who are not religious fanatics but just want to raise their kids in peace. That's most of us.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:36:28 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: The lesser of two evils
Message:
The people who organised the terrorist attacks on America are of the belief that Islam should be spread to all the world and that unbelievers must die. It has got nothing to do with the obvious inequalities between East and West or between the West and the Third World.

In these highly fanatical Muslim people's eyes, the unbelievers are already dead. People are expendable and that means both Muslims and non Muslims.

Which is preferable; a world like Afghanistan where women are not allowed to talk to other men besides their husbands and must be covered up less the world see their sinful bodies or a world where we have to listen to America harp on about how great they are?

I know which of the lesser of the two evils I'd choose.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:05:13 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sounds like a cult to me!
Message:
The people who organised the prachar of public satsanging, leafletting and postering in America are of the belief that Knowledge should be spread to all the world and that unbelievers must die. It has got nothing to do with the obvious inequalities between East and West or between the West and the Third World.

In these highly fanatical Maharaji follower's eyes, the unbelievers are already dead. People are expendable and that means both PWK and non PWKs.

Which is preferable; a world like a Divine Light Mission ashram where women are not allowed to talk to other men besides their husbands and must be covered up less the world see their sinful bodies or a world where we have to listen to America harp on about how great they are?

I know which of the lesser of the two evils I'd choose.

I'm going back to the feet. Remember only 144,000 will be saved when the Lord returns.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:24:22 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Incidentally, did you know this?
Message:
I don't know how widely this is known but the terrorists on the fourth plane which crashed in a field, phoned up George W on Airforce One on their cell phone and told him, ''You are next.''

And that's not a rumour. I get my info, not from CNN or any American channels but from BBC or independant radio here in the UK, mostly, which is without censorship and usually has live interviews with journalists all over the world. It was John Simpson of the BBC who was talking live from Pakistan who narrated his 1989 story about Bin Laden's pillow punching crying tantrums and about his brother owning the ''Hard Rock Cafe'' burger joint in Beirut.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:52:23 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Know?
Message:
Geez Dave, you'll believe anything. First of all, they had no capacity to bring down AF1. Even if they did make such a call, how would anyone document it or provide any proof of such an event? There are lots of bogus stories connected with this event, and you've just shared another one. They have a slower plane with no weapons other than the plane itself facing a faster and far more maneuverable plane with veteran pilots and a fighter escort of the top pilots in the USAF. If the BBC is touting this story I sure wouldn't be bagging about it. And I'm not too sure about the tantruming UBL story either. Can't see any reason why such a story would be censored right now on the American press, save the very real possibility that there's no substance to it.

--Scott
--Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:16:05 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Credible evidence
Message:
I don't know, Scott. Just what was that credible evidence that Ari Fleisher was talking about when he said 'we have credible evidence that the White House and Air Force One were targets?' He never did elaborate.

Just putting 2 an 2 together.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 02:22:07 (EDT)
From: CNN
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Credible evidence
Message:
I heard Ari Fleisher say that the 'credible evidence' was that whoever called them knew, at a minimum, the code word(s) for Air Force One. It sounded like they knew other code words from what Fleisher said, but he definitely said they knew there was a leak somewhere because the code for AF1 was known. You might also remember that Ashcroft made mention in his press conference about people in the military revealing classified information, and reminded them they were breaking federal law by doing so.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:35:47 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Are you kidding me
Message:
OH Shit! I can't believe what's going on! Of course, the fact that they could do what they are doing, shows they have watched our culture while planning this far in advance. Amazing.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:14:41 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: No kidding and
Message:
John Simpson of the BBC is not one to spread untruths and rumours. He did spend a long time living amongst the Muhajadin in Afghanistan and reporting weekly to the BBC on the war between them and Russia back in the eighties. He was taken to the front line on many occasions and was trusted with the secret locations of the Muhajanin military positions.

Such a person gets information, not from the usual news network sources but from personal contacts built up over years. Yes the terrorists had George W Bush's private phone number and yes they told him that he was next. Of course, they weren't going to try to hit Airforce One in mid air. They were, in their high state of adrenaline, knowing their friends had just killed thousands at the WTC and knowing they too were about to die in a similar incident; they were obviously fuelled by their aggression and bloodlust into phoning the president telling him of his impending doom.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:26:02 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Incidentally, did you know this?
Message:
Hi Sir Dave,

No, I hadn't heard that. But the plane from which that came was crashed purposely by the passengers. Based on cell phone calls that came from that particular plane, the FBI or whoever, have concluded that because the terrorists told them they were going to die they rushed the cockpit and took over. The plane was flying upside down until it nosedived into the ground outside of Pittsburgh.

Women and men gave up their lives so the terrorists wouldn't succeed in hitting Airforce One, Camp David or the White House.

Btw, Airforce One is any plane on which the president is flying. The actual Airforce One aircraft is called Venus II when he's not on it.

Chilling and scary.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:38:53 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hi Cynthia (OT)
Message:
I responded to your last message on AG. I agree with you. I feel repelled when I read some of those posts. It's just not funny in my mind. Maybe I'm a prudent square, or maybe I have more class.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:21:08 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: More Class, Deb...
Message:
That's why I don't go there...
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:28:33 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Dave, the Telegraph...
Message:
what's your opinion of that newspaper? I get a lot of my info from UK sources, instead of the hairsprayed, lipsticked news fakers on US television.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:03:24 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Here's my sources
Message:
I don't read newspapers much. I get most of my news from the radio and also watch the news on BBC and Sky News.

The radio stations I listen too and which I'd recommend since they can be heard online too are Radio 5 Live, Talk Sport and Radio LBC. Check 'em out!

The Telegraph is one of our better newspapers and if you get it there, well worth a read.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 16:41:08 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Dave, the Telegraph...
Message:
Hi Gerry, I appreciate you offering advice for other newspapers but could we keep some US slaps in the face off the forum in respect to our good friends who live in US right now. Very sensitive times. And they need our support more than ever.

p.s. No offense intended, Gerry.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:11:17 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: You missed the point, Deb
Message:
I want to know which are the best UK papers in Dave's opinion.

I live in the USA. I don't trust the monopoly media, the press fakers. We have a severely censored press here and I often look to foreign sources for the rest of the story.

Why can't I say that? Why can't I ask for Dave's opinion on the Telegraph? I don't get it.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:14:13 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry..Brit newspapers
Message:
Of the four main daily broadsheets ..The Times, The Independent,The Telegraph and The Gaurdian....

The Times is now a glorified Rupert Murdoch rag (so if the Chinese president wanted Murdoch to put on a headline like 'BRITAIN IS A FUCKED UP CESSPIT'on the front page, he probably would for even more access to the Chinese market. An exagerration but he did cancel a deal with BBC and refuse to publish Pattons book (last UK, Hong Kong governor) in exchange for Chinese business.

The telegraph has updated its image lately but it's the most old, right wing tory type of papaer. In the past you'd notice articles 'Major -General Percival Carruthers' (spoof name but ..)...nowadays it's owned by the Canadian magnate, Conrad Black. Still right wing and often reactionary. Nevertheless not dumb.

The Independent....well a fairly recent paper in comparison to the other three. As it title suggests it aims to give a genuine independent viewpoint. Not right wing.Leftish/liberal leanings I guess but not an out and out leftwing organ.It's sunday version did a long campaign for legalising cannabis. Covered the issue adequately.

IMO the best paper is the Guardian. Even so, I appreciated it more a few years ago. It started out as the Manchester Guardian ....not sure when , either early 20th cent or 19th cent. Originally was a lot more left wing than it is now. Could say leftish leanings/liberal comment. Interesting and intelligent. Joe mentioned about being in the UK in the 70's and Pat C mentioned his recollections. It's important to remember though that Britain has changed quite fundamentally in the last 20 yrs. Of course still a poor working class element but the majority of Brits are now pretty well off.....the whole mass of 'middle England ' (lower/middle class)puts other groups on the fringes. Like I say though, still the poor and the rich between this middle group.

There are a quite a few tabloid daily too. Basically, comics. The big ones...Murdochs the Sun, the Mirror and the MAIL have a big influence on the mass of people here.They sell by the million. The broadsheets obviously less.

I'd prefer BBC analyis and coverage to world events above CNN (first in but so what ?) and the US networks. Canadian tv from what I've seen (very little) is pretty good.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:43:00 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Gerry..Brit newspapers
Message:
Yes, I only like the Guardian. Murdoch is Australian and as weaselly as the ones who post here. Oops sorry he is a Yank now so that he can own TV stations like Fox.

But for Brit establishment mindset info the Economist is a must even if it is a weekly mag. It beats US weeklies. And the Spectator (monthly) can be fun if you can stomach the highschool-prefect Toryism.

Does the Daily Mirror and/or Sun still have tits on the cover?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:23:50 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Pacifica Radio
Message:
I'm sure you must know about this, Gerry. But in case you don't, check it out:

Pacifica Radio

If the link doesn't work it's 'http://www.pacifica.org/'

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:26:34 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Thanks very much guys. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 18:38:50 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: You're right-I missed the point
Message:
Sorry Gerry

I think I read the same statement in another post of yours and which resembled comments in others and thought it was a jab at the fallibility of the press. And for some reason I thought maybe you were lived abroad. Not that that's a great excuse.

I cringe myself when I watch the news because of the slants and photo ops of the president. Don't think I don't understand. It worries me that his talks will piss off the world. But then, it looks like the world is on the American side. You weren't at war. You were struck by surprise and the better part world is behind you.

A few of our American friends here have been upset by perceived anti-amercianism and I was trying to ease the blow. We're all in this together. Shit, I'm literally right next door.

Really, I meant it when I said no offense. I took the comment wrong.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 09:28:33 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Pakistan's dilemma
Message:
Hi all

It seems that Pakistan will be sending a delegation to Afghanistan tomorrow demanding that Bin Laden be handed over to the US within 3 days.

Will the Taliban comply? Let's hope so. If they do it will save suffering for the time being....

...but if they don't, major problems.

I think the Pakistan government is in the unenviable situation of having to comply with American demands for air space and possibly land access for an invasion force into Afghanistanon the one hand, and on the other, face strong resistance from the pro-Taliban elements in it's own population and military. The potential for internal strife in Pakistan, especially with it's nuclear capability, could have frightening consequences.

The US are obviously placing their bets that the Taliban will comply (and lets pray that they do) because situation could become a real gamble if there's a popular pro-Taliban uprising in Pakistan, which is,apparently, a distinct possibility.

Mel

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:39:31 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Not quite so simple
Message:
Bin Laden cannot just be ''handed over''. He has 10,000 of his own troops ready to die for him, at his disposal.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:59:52 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Not quite so simple
Message:
Yeah, Dave, I forgot about that

Mel

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:34:48 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: I don't think they'll do it
Message:
The only friends the Taliban has in the Arab world are Islamic fundamentalists. If they comply with Pakistan's demands they'll ostracize themselves from the only friends they've got. I think Pakistan is dreaming, and maybe just posturing.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:19:40 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: Pakistan's dilemma
Message:
Pakistan is not they only avenue that the American adminstration is looking at. Belive it or not, they have asked Iran to interfer. Iran is already at war with the Talabans and they support Mssoud, in the north, maybe there will be a different development.

Interesting to know that the only three countries that recognise the Talabans are Pakistan, Saudia Arabia and the United Arab Emerets[UAE]. One has become a neuclear power in a very conflicted region, the other two are shaffted by [uhmm] America.

As to america's direction, the problem is there is proof that bin Ladden done it. I think if you look cloosly, you will see that more than one group is involved, especially southern Suddan and the Philipiens and most likeloy a palasinien group that has no affiliation. I think the general sensus is, if they can get Bin Ladden, they may be able to figure out who the rest of the conspirators are. How they gonna do that beats the crap out of me. There is opposition to carrying a militry action, a lot of humanitarian organisation are mostly against it as Afghanistan has nothing going for it above from the big mouth assholes Talabans.

Bush is playing a war game. I don't think it will happen, even if it did it won't happen over night. Afghanistan is a mountainous area, the Afghans already had a war with a super power and won, there is all the logististic of moving army blah blah blah.

A comment on Jim's post below. I haven't followed all the posts, saying that America deserves what it got is not on. These people where innocent workers going about their jobs.

As for Bush, well he appears to me that he is overwhelmed by the situation, if he doesn't act, America will be in a very volunrable state, if he does act, many will say, see we told you, America wants to police the world. I just hope that someone has enough brains to resolve this issue.

and may god bless CNN

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 11:58:13 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: Pakistan's dilemma
Message:
Hi Salam

Yes, I únderstand that Iran has closed it borders with Afghanistan, but I would find it difficult to believe that they would give the US the required access from their territory as well(not that you've said that)The two factors I see are that <1> Iran is bounded by Iraq in the west and the various 'Stans' in the north which makes physical access near impossible without 'annoying the neighbours' and <2> despite the animosity between the Iranians and the Taliban, I think if push comes to shove they could ally with each other.

Although it seems that it is likely that Bin Ladan definitely is involved (even if not directly responsible), I think the US is clearly trying (and needs) to get some domestic runs on the board with his early apprehension. Of course, there are all the attacks on the US that he is apparently responsible for.

As for Bush's war game, as you put it, I just hope he hasn't painted himself into a corner on this. The only other option is for the Arab Nations to try to compel the Taliban to comply. I guess we'll know the answer in a few days, so its raelly pointless speculating.

Mel

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 07:31:02 (EDT)
From: Auden
Email: hope@hope.hope
To: All
Subject: Sept. 1, 1939
Message:
[from W.H. Auden's poem, 'Sept, 1, 1939',
written after the events that started WWII]
Defenseless under the night
our world in stupour lies;
yet, dotted everywhere,
ironic points of light
flash out wherever the Just
exchange their messages:
May I, composed like them
of Eros and of dust,
beleaguered by the same
negation and despair,
show an affirming flame.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 07:25:49 (EDT)
From: unknown
Email: None
To: All
Subject: in matters of revenge
Message:
'In matters of revenge or retaliation, dig two graves: one for your enemy and one for yourself.'
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:46:41 (EDT)
From: ())
Email: None
To: unknown
Subject: Smart one, get this())())())
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:38:01 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: unknown
Subject: In matters of justice
Message:
Dig two graves: one for your enemy, and one for your dead relative.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 06:14:57 (EDT)
From: don p.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: sant ji : a suspect
Message:
sant ji is from the east, he has a dark skin AND
he learned how to fly a plane in an american
flying school !!! that should be enough for the
fbi and the cia to start an investigation !!

Oh and by the way, my IP is 212.94.244.6 Cheers I love Goober!

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 06:23:04 (EDT)
From: It's too bad your mind
Email: None
To: don p.
Subject: even thinks in that way
Message:
Sure he has deceived many people but why even bring up the racial stuff. Shame on you.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:31:31 (EDT)
From: SILENT SOLDIER
Email: None
To: It's too bad your mind
Subject: no racial issue, a fact.
Message:
Now that somebody brings it up he could have done it.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 04:27:08 (EDT)
From: Earth Man, a world citizen
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Solution
Message:
Identify all leaders, i.e. religious(yes, this includes the fat boy),political, economic and military. Lock them in a large area but not that large. Make them listen to Dr. Joyce Brothers for a few hours.

I was going to say they could leave when they came up with a real solution but the more I think about it, why not let them just stay there.

I sure would like to hear the interface between The Guru Maharaji, Saddam Hussein and Dr. Billy Graham.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 10:39:18 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Earth Man, a world citizen
Subject: Yeah, that will work, yeah...
Message:
Stupidity is not needed right now. If you want some solutions, become an activist against the suppression of women worldwide.

Let us have a chance for a change.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:04:38 (EDT)
From: Just relax and go do the dishes
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Yeah, that will work, yeah...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:28:31 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Just relax and go do the dishes
Subject: You must by psychic...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 03:39:50 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: All
Subject: anybody catch this?
Message:
I think a lot of pwk's have been waiting for him to say something. This is on the site. Seems a little skimpy, to say the least.
[ mr. rawat ]
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 14:34:38 (EDT)
From: yeah
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: catch this?
Message:
He included THAT in his site because somebody said here yesterday, early, that M didn't give a damm. He really doesn't. He is a man without caring feelings toward strangers. Those who died are the ones he laughed at so many times...

silvia

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 15:27:46 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: yeah
Subject: It was me...
Message:
and I checked the m's site in order to not make assumptions. Nothing was there until yesterday. BFD.

Btw, how are you? I'm a wreck.

But I shall survive, I hope.
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:31:21 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: ?
Message:
and I checked the m's site in order to not make assumptions. Nothing was there until yesterday. BFD.

Btw, how are you? I'm a wreck.

But I shall survive, I hope.
Love,
Cynthia


---

Please don't jump all over me for this, I am not here to debate about or defend Maharaji. But the day of the attack I received a phone call in the early afternoon, he had asked that premies in the affected areas be called to see if anyone needed help, if people were all right.
And this is something I am still wondering about, because there are so many people, associated at least at one time with Maharaji, who live in New York City. Are there people from NYC posting and reading here? Have we friends, past or present, who are missing or dead?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:51:18 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Re: ?
Message:
I don't believe a word of it. It would have gone out over First Class and my friends would have called me. No one has said anything and I've talked to more pwk's this past week than all year long.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:07:55 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: ?
Message:
I don't believe a word of it. It would have gone out over First Class and my friends would have called me. No one has said anything and I've talked to more pwk's this past week than all year long.


---

Have you talked to people in DC or NY?

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:27:27 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Go Away, Annie...
Message:
Maharaji doesn't give a rat's ass about you or anyone else but his own ass.

If he was so concerned don't you think he would have had a live satellite feed, (cost to you) to determine if everyone was okay?

Give him up. He's a con, a fraud, a charlatan.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:32:07 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Re: ? Annie is your middle name Cerise?
Message:
or Marolyn? Or Selena or a Victoria? I thought your post about Afghanistan was good but I must say I also thought it a bit slick - like something written by a cultweasel - emotionless and now that I think of it fake and manipulative. I thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt but I guess you're simply another game-playing cult apologist.

You really are not welcome here even with your pretense of not being interested in the premie/expremie debate. Go away little girl before you put your foot in some caca.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:38:17 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: ? Annie is your middle name Cerise?
Message:
You are incorrect, and you are mean. Why do you want to start a war?

It was not 'my' post, by the way, it was not written by me, only forwarded for the benefit of anyone for whom it might have value.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:25:21 (EDT)
From: SILVIA
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Message:
I'm sick of you! Playing the gentle type and calling others mean and hateful. You idiot!

Fuck off of here. Who wants to read your stupidity/fake,ass remnarks, you asshole!

No, I know what real love is and some people simply are not lovable. I hate hipocresy. Buuuuuuuuuhhhhh

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:49:36 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Rawatists are not welcome
Message:
I don't care how nice you are. Cult apologists are not trusted here so why bother. Post on Lifes (sic) Great. The link is at the top of this page. I don't want to have a war with premies either but none of us trust you guys so why are you here. It is assumed that premies are here to make mischief. Most premies would not post here - only trouble makers and cult apologists.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:13:58 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Not exceeding 40 characters
Message:
I read at the top of the page that people who are not anti-Maharaji are allowed to post here. I have many good friends who consider themselves expremies, it is not for me a deterrent to friendship. Your tone of communication to me changed drastically between those two posts. It seems that when you realized I am not 'ex' you became quite rude, and made immediate wrong assumptions about me.

But I am an honest person. If I have any ulterior motive in posting here, as a 'premie' on an 'expremie' forum, I make no secret of it. It is simply this: 'something there is that doesn't love a wall, that wants it down.'

The change in your attitude towards me and my postings was remarkable, especially when you know nothing about me other than that I am not anti-Maharaji. Your response to me seems [to me] the kernel of exactly what goes wrong in our world, between people, between nations. It is assumption, unexamined prejudice, ignorance and insensitivity. I am not trying to have an argument with you, but that is really how I see it.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:26:57 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Correct reading Annie.
Message:
So very true, welcome to the convoluted world of the Conlon, a rear bird, sorry, a RARE bird!

Unstable emotions are the root cause of 90% of human problems. Dealing with people who suffer such things can be very trying for those not sharply in tune with themselves.

Annie, keep you hand on the hilt of your sword at all times when talking to Pat C and his like.
He changes moods more times in a day than the wind at Cape Horn.

Hand on your sword, they won't touch you.
They instinctively know which is the sharper of the weapons.

Just don't make the mistake of dreaming anyone will ever admit that.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:45:18 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: AWSosman@aol.com
To: SC
Subject: incorrect reading
Message:
SC, thanks anyway but I do not think in terms of us and them. I either think me me me me me me me me me or I think all of us, everybody, down to the last particle. I cannot say if it is integrity or laziness, but my habit and preference is to let the stones lie where they fall, I do not build walls, repair or reinforce them, if I can help it.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:31:32 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: That's it! SC, you Creep!
Message:
SC,

Homophobic, like your guru. Insensitive, like your guru.

Sadistic like your guru and why are you HERE?

To make people feel bad.

So just go along, now, back to lifes great, or Guru Gives a Shit, or whatever shithole you crawled out of.

Very Sincerely,
Cynthia Gracie

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:57:14 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Homophobic creep and fake
Message:
SC aka David Roupell said: ''PatC is......a rear bird, sorry, a RARE bird!''

Same weird sense of humor as CAC. He isn't really homophobic but knows how to use that prejudice to further his own sick agenda.

Well, Mr Roupell, should I tell them all the other stuff that I know about you that I have been gentleman enough not to talk about till now? And you know who my informant is.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:09:46 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Not exceeding 40 characters
Message:
Do you mean that you have not assumed more than 40 characters on the forum or was that a koan?

Okay, let's not fight. Tell me a bit more about yourself. Where do you live? Is Annie your real name? I'm always willing to listen and actually love learning about other people. I'm curious and really enjoy finding out about other people more than just doing Rawat bashing (but that's fun too.)

So when did you get K? Have you read the stuff on EPO.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:06:05 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: AWSosman@aol.com
To: Pat:C)
Subject: answers & a question
Message:
Q: Do you mean that you have not assumed more than 40 characters on the forum or was that a koan?

A: I'm not that sophisticated. When I posted that post, the subject line was blank. The Postmaster General sent it back with a stern note: 'Please make sure you have entered a name in the name field and that the subject line does not exceed 40 characters in length.' What to do, what to do? What could I possibly write as the subject heading for my post?? THink think think think think.. then it came to me.

Q: Where do you live?
A: In Maryland, on the border of Washington DC

Q: Is Annie your real name?
A: Yes

Q: So when did you get K?
A: 15 September 1972, in Halifax, M.Parlokanand

Q: Have you read the stuff on EPO.
A: Yes.

Now I have a question, to you and to everyone or anyone else who would respond. What does it take for one person to trust another? I am nobody's enemy, except maybe my own.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:18:47 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Annie
Subject: PS: I'm a fag, queer, a poofter, perv etc
Message:
You said: ''What does it take for one person to trust another?''

The answer is simple: you have to want to be trusted and make those wants obvious. No silly-billy games. And be brave and talk about yourself and not hide behind anonymity or other ruses.

My name is Patrick Conlon and I live in San Francisco and I got K April Fool's Day 1973 in London from Umesh Dhar. My email is above.

Also, in case you did not notice SC's homophobic dig, I am homosexual.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:09:10 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Wow, Annie - you're for real
Message:
My apologies for being so unfriendly. I'm one of those sucker types who falls for conmen quite easily - seriously. I've been suckered by very deceitful and creepy apologists on this forum.

Did you read about the CAC website - what the fanatical cultists did to exes? If you did then you would understand why I am so prickly about premies right now.

Anyway hopefully we can make a fresh start without my prejudices getting in the way. Okay? Shake?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 02:06:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Annie's an old friend of mine
Message:
This is Annie as in Annie Wood, former ashram colleague of mine and sometime forum participant.

I guess none of you guys remember her posts? They're in the archives.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:50:55 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oops })
Message:
Thought it was the other Annie who left when CAC Jihad started
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:45:50 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: friends in high places
Message:
'Colleague' -- ahahahaaaa aha hhahahahahaha!It is so wonderful to have influential friends in high places. Thanks for the ID. I hope you are well and I appreciated your CNN post. And anyone reading this I do recommend the website of the women's resistance in Afghanistan, I think it was posted by Sir Dave. It is powerful.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:03:06 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: agreed Annie
Message:
The RAWA site is inspiring. It also brings home how terrifying the idea of killing innocent people wherever they live.
And I greatly appreciated Jim's post, the page that day had depressed me. I do understand the value of seeing alternate views but it was getting to me.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:04:30 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Any friend of yours, Jim
Message:
.....is a friend of mine, including Barry.......and Annie.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:44:38 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Person's a liar PatC
Message:
You rememembered the little withch pretended she was an aspirant. And then told us to fuck off the day the Maha Bin Laden Jihad exploded. Convenient timing isn't it.

Let's talk about this via email. I am so pissed.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:09:45 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: why bother, Pat?
Message:
This 'Annie' is just jerking off like the rest of them.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:25:14 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Oh, you know me, Gerry
Message:
I'd give the devil the benefit of the doubt until....well, and then hell hath no fury like a fag fibbed to.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 17:49:37 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Annie-not here
Message:
So Maha is concerned about the followers. But what about the followers who worshipped, sacrificed families, friends, careers, dignity, etc to follow him.

I'll tell what he did, he conducted a JIhad. Funny guy, eh? Imagine that, what surrendipity. This is ALSO what Maha Bin Laden is about.

You were here when that happened. Did he make any calls to make sure any of us were scared or hurt in any way.

No, he sat back and laughed at his plot to inflict emotional and psychological terrorism in the exes.

So don't whine to us about the fuckin BigHead's concern.

This is what it takes to make him even resemble Humanlikeness.

Where was his apology? When will it happen.

No PRAISE for Maha, PLEASE

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:03:11 (EDT)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Annie-not here
Message:
Deborah,

I only made that point for the purpose of accuracy. I cannot, and don't even want to try, to address your perspectives. They are different from my own, and I disagree with them; but they are yours.

I have no heart whatsoever for premie vs expremie debate, it's not relevant to me in my life. I recognize and respect that each of us is making our own choices. One of the benefits for me of getting older is I am now convinced I have no idea what anyone else ought to do, think, or believe.

I recognize the purpose of this forum, and am not here for the purposes of undermining that. I have not read nor posted here for quite a long time. But I wanted to find out if people I know had been affected directly, and then have been interested to read alot of the discussion about the recent events. There are many intelligent, thoughtful, insightful people who post here. Aside from a few individuals, I do not know anymore who believes what about Maharaji. It does not matter to me! But I don't like distortion of fact, no matter what it is about. And we don't need to hold the differences between ourselves, especially nowadays.
Annie

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:42:16 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: Annie- you are a fuckin liar
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:45:49 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To:

Subject: Deborah Threatens!
Message:



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All Rights Reserved

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