Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 16, 2001 To: Sep 19, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Selene -:- repost of link -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:23:11 (EDT)
__ ps -:- uh not what I meant -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:45:39 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- Taliban refuse to hand over bin Laden -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:20:38 (EDT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- Thats not all the Taliban have done..... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:42:17 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- Islamic clerics to decide bin Laden fate -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:24:42 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- SC's Post on Lifes (sic Great) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:58:46 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: SC's Post on Lifes (sic Great) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:36:00 (EDT)
__ sick of SC -:- here's one reference -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:39:28 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks...That was it... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:02:37 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- More chapters of 'The Sant mat' Book -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:10:00 (EDT)
__ Mili -:- Re: More chapters of 'The Sant mat' Book -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:13:35 (EDT)
__ __ And any practising Sikh -:- will tell you that 'Satguru' -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:25:10 (EDT)

Nigel -:- Armageddon worried now...(ot) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 11:12:25 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Vacuuming the Middle East -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:43:45 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- The American Dilemma -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:17:26 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- A few dilemmas, not 'The American Dilemma' -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:30:06 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- US foreign policy -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:30:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Re: US foreign policy -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:39:10 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:56:42 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- :: Hallowe'en Treaty :: -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:19:22 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- Troops mass on Afghan border -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:10:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Sorry... here... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:11:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- damn -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:12:23 (EDT)
__ creativejani -:- Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:52:10 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Conspiracy thinking like this is stupid -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:26:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Take Jim with a grain of salt or alum maybe Jani -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:01:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're being offensive too, Gerry -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:07:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: You're being offensive too, Gerry -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:28:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Where'd that come from? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:36:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Where'd that come from? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:07:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, Rick, I'm an idiot savant, I guess -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:26:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Yes, Rick, I'm an idiot savant, I guess -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:44:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Yes, Rick, I'm an idiot savant, I guess -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:11:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Yes, Rick, I'm an idiot savant, I guess -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:49:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Institute of Mass Murder -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:29:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- The Perfect Anology -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:46:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, Rick, I' -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:53:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Yes, Rick, I' -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:26:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Jim two questions -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:23:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Two answers, Ger -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:31:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CNN -:- Re: You're being offensive too, Gerry -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:39:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Think about your theory -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:47:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Some historians think Churchill -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 04:47:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- and also -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 05:31:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CNN -:- Re: Think about your theory -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:15:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- absolutamente (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:46:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- War is Business -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:22:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- In this case war is religion -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:26:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Jim Jim Jim -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:26:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Could I have a real answer, please? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:24:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Could I have a real answer, please? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:52:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Ah, come on Jim and Gerry -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:03:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes and no, Pat -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:16:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: In this case war is religion -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:45:44 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:14:29 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Look at it another way -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 11:43:00 (EDT)
__ __ creativejani -:- Re: Look at it another way -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:02:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Intelligence is the best answer -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:35:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Intelligence is the best answer -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:10:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Intelligence is the best answer -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 05:49:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Don't forget their funding -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:06:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- America waking up -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:33:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: America waking up -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:18:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Airport Security -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:39:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Airport Security -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:56:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Airport Security -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:04:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- What Gets Me the Most -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:12:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: What Gets Me the Most -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:44:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Biological warfare -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:16:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Biological warfare -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 10:25:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- True, Rick -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:49:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Should we really blame intelligence? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:29:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yes, we should -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:24:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Yes, we should ..yes/no -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:09:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's pretty strong language, Joe -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:19:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- They knew about it? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:31:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: They knew about it? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:37:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Jim said they knew in 1993 -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:45:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Jim said they knew in 1993 -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:42:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I heard this on the TeeVee -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:17:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Jim said they knew in 1993 -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:51:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- last time I flew -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:00:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Your pomposity is gross -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:32:32 (EDT)

Mail Carrier -:- Milli at LIG -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:31:57 (EDT)

Timmi -:- sore tongue -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:59:32 (EDT)

SILVIA -:- Please FA, BLOCK SC nt -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:35:08 (EDT)

Disculta -:- Maharaji's offering re tragedy -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:08:57 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: Maharaji's offering re tragedy -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:25:10 (EDT)
__ **** -:- Re: Maharaji's offering re tragedy -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:19:05 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Nauseating -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:28:29 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Check out his cult member's response -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:58:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: Check out his cult member's response -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:06:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Amen! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:51:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- I can't resist it! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:07:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Perfect timing :) -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:44:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Glad you couldn't resist it! [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:09:13 (EDT)
__ salsa -:- how profund -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:38:34 (EDT)

Arjuna -:- M's bro (Satpal Ji Maharaj) writes Bush -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:30:18 (EDT)
__ Now's the time for the Malibu Rawat -:- to do some serious satsanging -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:41:51 (EDT)
__ __ [Blank] -:- Re: to do some serious satsanging -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:44:16 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- William Butler Yeats/Joni Mitchell -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:07:07 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: William Butler Yeats/Joni Mitchell -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:15:30 (EDT)

Kitty -:- The Hydra-headed Monster -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:58:54 (EDT)
__ Catweasel -:- Re: The Hydraulic- Pussy Monster -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:18:26 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: The Hydraulic- Pussy Monster -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:23:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Catweasel -:- With Teeth!!!! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:00:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: With Teeth!!!! Uh uh - I'll pull them first -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:08:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: With Teeth!!!! Uh uh - I'll pull them first -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:56:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JOhnT -:- Did you sue? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:35:55 (EDT)
__ Ex-Tex -:- Re: The Hydra-headed Monster -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:05:15 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Dear Kitty... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:45:33 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Dear Kitty... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:29:57 (EDT)
__ Pussyweasel -:- Conspiracy theories -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:52:41 (EDT)
__ __ SC -:- I wuz gonna say the same thing... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:56:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- what you posted on LG -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:49:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ SILVIA -:- FA, please BLOCK SC -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:22:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: I wuz gonna say the same thing... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:36:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- LEAVE PAT ALONE, You... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:09:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yeah, SC, I mean it! -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:11:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- you mean nothing Cynthia -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:28:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- It's cold, cruel words like that, David -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:42:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- And Cynthia's words? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:56:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ complete contempt -:- Re: And Cynthia's words? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:36:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You are so enlightened... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:34:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- SC you are cruel and sadistic [nt] -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:39:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Make up your mind girl! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:00:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Miss PWK -:- Nyah, nyah, nyah - PatC has posted -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:28:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you are a fake and a phony -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:15:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Super Creep !! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:09:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Re: Super Creep -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:58:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Super Creep -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:14:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- SC, You are a sadistic follower... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:59:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- No cynthia - sado-masochistic -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:00:06 (EDT)

salam -:- what is happening in Pakistan. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:58:10 (EDT)
__ **** -:- Salam -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:22:24 (EDT)
__ cq -:- Pakistani president now to visit CHINA for talks! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:48:03 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Re: what is happening in Pakistan. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:38:51 (EDT)
__ __ [Blank] -:- Re: what is happening in Pakistan. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:06:54 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- military update -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:22:19 (EDT)
__ [Blank] -:- Re: what is happening in Pakistan. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:03:14 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Behind the news. Scary shit. -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:47:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Behind the news. Scary shit. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:05:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Salam... -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:17:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Yes that is scary shit -:- Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:30:09 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:23:11 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: All
Subject: repost of link
Message:
While reading and responding to Annie in a thread way below I was reminded of how this site
RAWA
impressed me. I think Salam posted it first but am not sure. Whether anyone agrees with the contents or not I think it brings home the reality of innocent people being killed.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:45:39 (EDT)
From: ps
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: uh not what I meant
Message:
Obviously the reality of innocent people being killed has been brought home! What I meant to say is innocents being victims, wherever they live.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:20:38 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: bananas@freeatlast.com
To: All
Subject: Taliban refuse to hand over bin Laden
Message:
Taliban Refuse to Hand Over Bin Laden, Report Says
September 17, 2001 9:54 am EST

By David Fox
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (Reuters) - Senior Pakistani officials failed Monday to persuade the Taliban's reclusive leader Mullah Mohammad Omar to hand over Saudi-born terror suspect Osama bin Laden to avert U.S. armed retaliation, the AIP news agency said.
The Pakistan-based Afghan Islamic Press quoted Taliban spokesman Abdul Hai Mutamaen saying that over three hours of talks between the sides had not resolved the key issue of turning over the multi-millionaire Islamic militant accused of involvement in the September 11 terror attacks on the United States.
'The meeting looked in detail at the aspects of the problem. The talks were positive but I cannot give the details,' Mutamaen said. 'We are 60 percent hopeful that conditions will be normal.'
But on bin Laden, who the Taliban have termed a 'guest,' Mutamaen reported no progress: 'There was no clear discussion on this particular topic.'
The Pakistan delegation arrived early in the morning in the southern city of Kandahar and went immediately into talks with Taliban Foreign Minister Mullah Maulawi Wakil Ahmad Muttawakil.

The Pakistani officials, including intelligence chief General Mahmood Ahmed, won permission from the United Nations to break a ban on flights to Afghanistan to try to convince the landlocked country's purist Islamic rulers of the gravity of their situation.
'The delegation is motivating and advising Mullah Omar and the Taliban leadership that they should consider the pros and cons of not cooperating with America and others on matters of terrorism...,' Interior Minister Moinuddin Haider said during a visit to Kuwait.
'Because if Afghanistan does not do the logical, balanced attitude in this regard it will be a problem for Afghanistan and its people,' he said.
The Taliban have previously refused all demands to hand over bin Laden -- the chief suspect in Tuesday's devastating terror attacks on New York and Washington -- saying proof of his involvement in the terror is a prerequisite.
The United States has vowed to punish the perpetrators and all those who protect them.
Bin Laden Sunday again denied any involvement.
'I have taken an oath of allegiance (to Mullah Omar) which does not allow me to do such things from Afghanistan,' he said in a statement faxed by an aide to the Afghan Islamic Press.
Pakistan is one of only three countries to recognize the Taliban government and was a key backer of the purist Islamic movement as it swept to power in the mid-1990s, taking most of the country and ending two decades of civil war.
PAKISTAN PROMISES TO COOPERATE
Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has promised to cooperate fully with the United States in its fight against global terror.
'We are alive to the gravity of the situation and know that in the lives of nations such situations do arise as require the taking of important decisions,' the official APP news agency quoted him as saying Sunday before his mission left.
The Pakistani diplomatic mission is a last-ditch appeal to the Taliban to try to avert what Washington has vowed will be retaliation by a 'mighty giant' awakened by the world's worst terror attack.
Military sources told Reuters that the delegation included General Mahmood Ahmed, the head of the country's intelligence service that is regarded as one of the creators of the Taliban. He had been in Washington when the terror attacks took place.
The Pakistan diplomacy coincides with a call by Mullah Omar for a war council in Kabul of Islamic clerics to discuss the defense of Afghanistan in the event of U.S. attacks.
Mullah Omar has already said the Taliban would declare a jihad, or holy war, against the United States if it attacked and also against any country that gives Washington assistance.
In a sign of mounting nervousness among the purist Taliban, the movement appealed at the weekend to the Organization for Islamic Conference (OIC) and Muslim states for help in case of an attack by the United States, a Taliban official in Kandahar told Reuters.
APPEAL FOR HELP
The decision to appeal for help from the OIC was taken at a special meeting of the Supreme Council of the Taliban convened in Kandahar late Saturday with the reclusive Omar in the chair. The OIC does not recognize the Taliban.
'We should unite against our enemies who want to crush us because we are Muslim,' the official quoted Omar as saying.
Monday, Taliban officials began fleeing the capital Kabul amid growing expectations of U.S. attacks. They were seen heading out of the city for the countryside, but it was not clear if this was under instructions from Mullah Omar.
In off-the-record briefings Sunday, Pakistan's president said the U.S. could base its troops either in Pakistan or neighboring Afghanistan, a source told Reuters.
In addition, it was possible U.S. ships would want access to Pakistan's coast to reach landlocked Afghanistan, a request Islamabad would be able to meet, the source said.
Musharraf, who seized power in a bloodless coup in October 1998, has still not fully consolidated his grip on the country and has to juggle carefully the interests of various political and religious groups.
'The president is aware that whatever he is going to do will create some problems for Pakistan and he may see a reaction from the general public,' said Hamid Meer, editor of Aussas (Foundation) newspaper.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:42:17 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Thats not all the Taliban have done.....
Message:
Debka headlines....

Afghanistan Aligns Army Along Pakistan Frontier and Points Scud Missiles at Pakistani Cities.

Also...
Special American CIA and FBI Units Are Positioned
Along Pakistani-Afghan Border....

Iranian Units Deploy on its Border with Afghanistan
Russia Bolsters Forces on Tadjik-Afghan Frontier...

Ladies and gentleman, please take your places for the dance....

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:24:42 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Islamic clerics to decide bin Laden fate
Message:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134342699_pakistan17.html
[ http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/134342699_pakistan17.html ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:58:46 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: SC's Post on Lifes (sic Great)
Message:
On Sept. 13th SC posted this on LG:

Subj.: There more to exes than being an EX

I've just read three posts from what almost seems the innappropriatly named 'ex-premie forum' at his time. I appreciated them very much. I say that because in my opinion they are some of the most intelligent, insightful and downright convincing assessments of the world situation post Sept 11th. I won't go into why I heartily agree with John T's clarity ('America's Agony' ) or tip my hat to Pat C's (Settling the world affairs) astounding and brilliant grasp of the international situation or even dermott's (For fuck's sake Scott!) emotional but amusing response to Scott's post.

I'd just like to say that anyone interested in what may or may not happen in the coming weeks and months, read those posts.

These guys have provided me with far greater nsights in 15 minutes than I've gotten from atching CNN and the local newshounds debate with experts all over the world about the crisis for the last two days.

The thread is headed..'After the terror: Silence.'

No matter what, this is a time for lovers of peace and harmony to unite, no matter what their belief system embraces or rejects.

I was just wondering what gives SC the authority and audacity to invite premies here. My response to SC was based on a clearly homophobic post which I now cannot find within that thread, which was directed against PatC, who was the author of that original thread SC recommended to the premies.

I know this will post will probably instigate a response, but I will not respond to SC anymore.

He has proven over and over again that once he gets involved in discussion here, and someone disagrees, he lashes out in mean and hurtful words. It was to the to the homophobic post about Pat that I responded in kind.

I don't post on LG, but I went there on Friday to post the email about lighting candles, for any premies who might want to pass the message on.

It was then that I noticed his complimentary invitation for premies to come here. And come they have.

So, if I offended by my own reaction to SC and the others such as Millie, Catweasal and the anonymous trolls, I apologize.

To SC I do not apologize. What he said in his words, (and I cannot find the post) was clearly homophobic. Then, because he supported my posts regarding my feminist views, he thought that I would ally myself to him. I don't even know this person's name.

And I certainly will not be responding to any of his posts in the future.

Some nerve, IMO, for SC to invite premies here to read the intellectual analysis of the tragic events of last week, giving us a backhanded compliment. This is, afterall, the expremie forum.

I simply wanted to explain what triggered my reaction.

I'm not an even tempered person, and I don't apologize for that. Especially because I am quite afraid of what is happening in the world today, my emotions are raw. Also, it is especially scarry living in the northeast, 6 hours away from NYC.

That's all I have to say about this. It doesn't make me feel good, believe me, to say hurtful words, but when I am provoked that sometimes happens. And I know I am not the only one here who reacts that way to premies who come here making troubles.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:36:00 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: SC's Post on Lifes (sic Great)
Message:
SC is a two-faced asshole. Make no bones about it. He says something nice over there so the cultists will think he's a nice guy. But give him 1 minute over here, and his ugly colours come out.

And let's NOT forget that he and his alias psycho-spirts (all trolls) are the number one suspect with the Maha bin laden CAC Jihad.

I think it's incredibly stupid to answer any of his posts. The guy is one sick fucker.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:39:28 (EDT)
From: sick of SC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: here's one reference
Message:
Here ya go:
SC in response to Annie
PatC answered you and I agree with him. While more sarcastic and cutting in nature than homophobic it does mirror the style of a few other premies who post as well as the CACas. Mirrors it exactly IMO.

And I too have to wonder why this person thinks his/her opinions are so valued here. I don't think he cares, he just goes on and on and on no matter what. A fanatic.

Why apologize?
This person sneered at JHB for having feelings, then plays the martyr when you speak against him last night.

I'd say we have much more serious issues right now. We are all easily triggered. Bullies like SC realize this and enjoy mucking things up. Ignoring him is a good way to go.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:02:37 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: sick of SC
Subject: Thanks...That was it...
Message:
I do think it was homophobic and distruptive and disturbing, especially from someone who claims to be a lover of truth and peace.

I need to take a short break from the forum until my anxiety decreases. :)If I can resist. I'll be checking in to see what's going on.

I've been triggered by the intense content here (and that's not a criticism at all), I also have much work to do that I've been neglecting.

Why apologize? Because I don't like to be nasty to anyone, and it offends ME, to see that behavior come out, especially in response to someone who is so mean.

Also, I'm usually in bed by 10pm EDT, and I've been spending way too much time here.

Thanks again,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:10:00 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: More chapters of 'The Sant mat' Book
Message:
Not that many facts, plain satsang ....

The Fifth Master of Advait Mat
Ideal Life
SHRI SHRI 108 SHRI PARAM HANSA DAYAL JI (THE FIRST MASTER)
SHRI SHRI 108 SHRI PARAMHANSA SADGURU DEV JI (THE SECOND MASTER)
SHRI SHRI 108 SHRI PARAMHANSA SADGURU DEV JI (THE THIRD MASTER)
SHRI SHRI 108 SHRI SADGURU DEV MAHARAJ JI (THE FOURTH MASTER)

Mili ? Do you like it ?

Still some more to come ...
[ The 'Paramhansa Advait Mat' Book, page 660-683 ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:13:35 (EDT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: More chapters of 'The Sant mat' Book
Message:
Good work, J-M. Thanks.

Now how about some stuff about Kabir, Guru Nanak, and the rest of the Sikh Connection?

The Guru Granth Sahib is well worth looking into, you know.
.

Check this out:

'The love and Pleasure of the Satguru is the sole delight and charm of a true sikh. Such a love smitten Sikh can kick aside all the kingdoms of earth and heaven for the pleasure of the Beloved Satguru.'

[ Sri Guru Granth Sahib ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:25:10 (EDT)
From: And any practising Sikh
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: will tell you that 'Satguru'
Message:
refers to the all-pervading spirit of life(or God). Not a living human human being which is considered idle-worship.
People like your maharaji and all the other RahdaSoami cults have poisened Sihkism as others have poisened Islam.

Satnam

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 11:12:25 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Armageddon worried now...(ot)
Message:
The pressure on the US administration to exact revenge was underlined by a public opinion poll which showed that 84% of Americans supported military retaliation. Two-thirds of them would support it 'even if it means many thousands of innocent civilians may be killed'. (See link)[my emphases]

The article is somewhat ambiguous whether the 'two-thirds' refers to two-thirds of Americans or two-thirds of the 84% (ie. 56% of total), but either way, this is not good. In fact, this is very, very ugly...

It seems these polled individuals would allow happen to thousands of innocent civilians that which they so graphically observed happen in New York to their own innocent civilians. That further terrorist massacres should be carried out, but this time in their own names? Let's make some buildings tumble, crushing babes and orphaning children? Americans really don't mind that sort of thing after all..? Really?

For fuck's sake, how could they...? (and I am not being anti-American - I suspect a British poll might show similar percentage.) I mean, what is it about people that they can be simultaneously shocked, sickened and outraged by the inhumanity of terrorism whilst demonstrating a similar inhumanity towards the well-being of others?

And this is isn't merely a morality issue. What further 'retaliation' might arise from any US-led coalition's 'retaliation'? A new generation of suicidal fundamentalists with enough biological nasties in a brief case to wipe out San Francisco or London, perhaps? A high-jacked plane dive-bombing a nuclear power station?

The FBI and CIA were clearly powerless to foresee or prevent last week's attacks. Why should we assume they could prevent the above scenarios? Both are certainly possible. 'Murphy's Law' approximately states that 'anything which can go wrong, will sooner or later go wrong'. You could add a sub-clause to the effect that 'anything which it is humanly possible to do - no matter how sick, depraved or insane - someone, somewhere will eventually do, give the right opportunity and motivation.'

I sincerely hope this survey reflects no more than heat-of-the-moment opinion, and that US politicians will not accept it as a mandate for careless or random mass-murder. That way lies Armageddon, folks.

Sorry for all the question marks. But this is depressing.
[ Two thirds don't mind a spot of revenge slaughter... ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:43:45 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Vacuuming the Middle East
Message:
Geez Nigel, for someone working on an advanced degree in a social science field you're not availing yourself of your own discipline very much. I'm sitting in the middle of this, and all I see so far are people dealing with grief in whatever way they can. The gut instinct is to want to do to Afghanistan what the Romans did to Carthage, but of course it's already been done. We haven't even moved into the full fledged stage of rage yet, which will probably happen as soon as people realize with certainty that all those 5400 people are gone for good. Right now each family member knows the odds but is hoping against hope that *their* loved one will beat them. When there are no odds to beat then grief will descend like a thousand pound weight, and rage will rise to meet it. But I hear the hawks being pretty thoughtful about what we might be able to do without triggering a war between Islam and Liberalism (which Islam would lose in the long run). I don't see very much irrational talk, except under circumstances where it's probably appropriate. As a friend of mine who has fought in his share of wars likes to say, 'Screaming and yelling is talking, only louder.'

As for the Armageddon scenario, yeah we might trigger that. But I don't think so. UBL probably shot his best shot on Sept. 11, with the element of surprise and some luck. If he had had gas or biologicals or nukes he'd have used them. And Gerry's suggestion (if I might interpret his metaphore in my own terms) is a good one. Create a vacuum in the Middle East, as a matter of policy. Even if hate continues to breed the vacuum will also spawn the antidote. The Palestinian Authority has been rather successful at infiltrating and undermining Hamas and Islamic Jihad, even though Palestine is far from a 'vacuum.' We have rational policies available to us. And if we get Armageddon anyway then I'll see you on the other side, if there is another side. And if not, it's all the same anyway.

My mind keeps coming back to those passengers on the fourth plane, as embodying the proper attitude toward 'predestination,': a stark contrast to the perverse doctrine of the murdering cult. If the only choice you have left is to affect the lives of others, then make them richer. It'll work. Pretty sure.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:17:26 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The American Dilemma
Message:
Nigel,

I agree with Katie that those polls don't mean very much. I think as people realize what might be involved, those numbers, as well as Bush's approval ratings, with drop. Bush doesn't come accross as very inspiring to me. He is going to have to get VERY specific about exactly what he plans to do before the American people will be willing to risk casualties, as well as more terrorist attacks. So far, it's just a lot of war talk and some of it would just be silly if it weren't so frightening. For example, Bush's statement that the people who did the attack are "against freedom" or other things I've heard that they hate us because we are "the infadel" and that it has nothing to do with US foreign policy are both ridiculously simplistic. Hopefully, we will get a little more thoughtful about this as time goes on, although the American people don't know much about what is going on in the rest of the world, and we have this distorted image of ourselves as always innocent and righteous. For example, we still haven't dealt with what we did in Vietnam because it's so counter to the image we have of ourselves.

Since Bin Laden is the current evil enemy, there will probably be a lot of effort to get him, but I doubt we will be able to, and even if they do, that's just the beginning. If the Taliban won't turn him over, and I'm sure they won't, then the Bush administration will want to bomb Afghanistan. But of course, 99% of the Afghans have nothing to do with Bin Laden and are just as innocent as the victims in New York.

Plus, Afghanistan is extremely impoverished, from years and years of war, and a drought that has been going on for 7 years. Any such attack will make the USA even more hated, and will likely result in more terrorist attacks on the multitude of visible American targets all over the world.

And then, there is the problem of the Russians and the Chinese and whether they will respond in some way. I think the US military thinks it might have an easier time of it, because there will be no 'superpower' on the other side.

In Vietnam, the North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong were supplied by the USSR. I think the Pentagon is currently deluding itself into thinking that because of the lack of a major power supporting the other side, that it won't be another Vietnam. But I think that's delusion, both because of the possibility of the Chinese or the Russians being freaked about US troops and power on their borders, but also because of the nature of Afghanistan. Plus, the 'power' on the other side might not be a government, but Islamic fundamentalists from around the world.

Since the US, other than Pearl Harbor which was pretty remote in 1941, hasn't really been attacked on its homeland since the Civil War, it remains to be seen how long the public will sustain the war fervor.

One final note. The model for responding to terrorism with assassination, military action and the like is Israel. Israel has been responding in that way for many years, and the acts of terrorism have just increased. They have not been successful, and unless something happens in the realm of peace negotiations, Israel can expect terrorist bombings and the like forever. Not a very encouraging model for what Bush says he is going to do.

Joe

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:30:06 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A few dilemmas, not 'The American Dilemma'
Message:
Joe:

Once again I don't agree with anything you've said, except possibly with the observation that Afghanistan isn't much of a prize (and we therefore shouldn't try to win it). I think Bush *is* sufficiently inspiring to the people he needs to inspire. War *is* simplistic, at least in it's motivations if not strategy. I know quite a bit about the modern military, and I don't think they're deluding themselves about Afghanistan. Groupthink is institutionally forbidden in the post-vietnam military, to an extent much greater than the corporate world. Those people regularly endure the tedious process of resolving complex problems through the discipline of John Warfield's 'Interpretive Structural Modelling,' for istance, and don't seem to have the institutional aversion to complexity that one finds in industry. I was quite amazed that they'd be so willing to completely reorganize based on what they discovered in these sessions. They'll leave no stone unturned.

Often, I find your discourse to be permeated by a sort of 'group think' of it's own. But perhaps you're just being a consistent critical thinker.

We have laws against assassination, but they don't apply to combatants, and should not.

BTW, I tend to reserve the phrase 'The American Dilemma' for the Myrdal thesis of how we reconcile institutionalized racism with core American values of equality of opportunity. I don't see much of a dilemma here for us at all. There are policy dilemmas, but even those seem pretty resolvable.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:30:50 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: US foreign policy
Message:
Joe,

You're a pretty informed guy. What, in US policy could cause the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism that we now see in the mideast that just absolutely despises everything American? Are you really so sure that it just isn't the way these people are, that their reaction to western influence isn't ridiculously extreme, insane even? What could we have possibly done to produce the likes of bin Laden and the Taliban? Are you sure their reasons for despising us aren't purely religious in nature? I'm not.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:39:10 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: US foreign policy
Message:
From what I understand, Bin Laden is really angry about a number of things the US has done. I don't think the Taliban is involved, except to provide him sanctuary, and that was only after the US got Sudan to expell him and Afghanistan offered him refuge.

Bin Laden is Saudi Arabian and he is very much opposed to the Saudi government, which is completely undemocratic and in his opinion is aligned too closely to the US and the West. For one thing, he apparently believes that US troops on Saudi soil is a desecration. He is really upset that George Bush Sr. said he would remove all US troops from the Gulf states after the Gulf War and then he didn't do it. 10 years later, they are still there, and Bin Laden blew up one of the barracks for US troops in Saudi Arabia a number of years ago. Although Bin Laden has stated his opposition and hatred for Saddam Hussein, and although I don't think he openly opposed the Gulf War against him, he is opposed to US troops in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and UAE, and really, except to keep the Saudi royal family and those other governments in power, why are they even there?

Plus, although he isn't supportive of Hussein, or at least says he isn't, he has said that the US continually bombing the Iraqi population, that the sanctions have killed 500,000 Iraqi children as 'collateral damage' is an outrage, and I agree with him on that one.

Bin Laden also believes that the West is exploiting the natural resources (oil) of the Middle East and the money is going to a rich few, who are militarily supported by the West, and that the populations of those countries remains impoverished.

He believes the US support of Israel in the conflict with the Palestinians is very one-sided, and as the conflict has become especially brutal under Sharon in the past year, the whole thing has gotten much more intense.

The difficult thing is that among the general population of the Middle East, among the poorer classes, there is quite a bit of support for Bin Laden, because they blame the West for their condition. I'm not saying they support terrorism or what was done last week, but they do tend to hate the US and its allies. It also provides a source of recruits for associated terrorist groups.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:56:42 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot)
Message:
I think Americans are seeing this situation in terms of survival. The one's who aren't idiots (and that's a percentage very difficult to estimate) prefer to be as moral as possible but when it comes down to us or them who survive, it's going to be us.

American's have never before felt their own personal safety is in danger. It's hard to get the information necessary to understand why and how the WTC bombings happened, and what can be done about it. So people feel even more insecure. As a result, they grasp for the most severe solution to make sure they're going to be safe.

Add to the mix the prejudice against middle-easterners, and there's a tinge of 'well, most of them aren't innocent anyway'. And 'they may be innocent now, but they could become terrorists later'.

Innocent casualties aren't new. Look at Hiroshima and Nagosaki. People accepted it, and they still accept it because they don't completely seperate a population from the actions of their military.

In Vietnam, it was sometimes impossible to identify the soldiers. The same is probably true for Islamic terrorists.

You're right, Nigel; this is depressing. Not only because innocent middle-easterners will die but because the carnage is likely not finished in the West.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:19:22 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: :: Hallowe'en Treaty ::
Message:
And then Rick shawed us these salient remarks:

I think Americans are seeing this situation in terms of survival. The one's who aren't idiots (and that's a percentage very difficult to estimate) prefer to be as moral as possible but when it comes down to us or them who survive, it's going to be us.

American's have never before felt their own personal safety is in danger. It's hard to get the information necessary to understand why and how the WTC bombings happened, and what can be done about it. So people feel even more insecure. As a result, they grasp for the most severe solution to make sure they're going to be safe.

Add to the mix the prejudice against middle-easterners, and there's a tinge of 'well, most of them aren't innocent anyway'. And 'they may be innocent now, but they could become terrorists later'.

Innocent casualties aren't new. Look at Hiroshima and Nagosaki. People accepted it, and they still accept it because they don't completely seperate a population from the actions of their military.

In Vietnam, it was sometimes impossible to identify the soldiers. The same is probably true for Islamic terrorists.

You're right, Nigel; this is depressing. Not only because innocent middle-easterners will die but because the carnage is likely not finished in the West.

---

I think people are waking up to the factoid that no place is
safe from the use of weapons of mass-destruction, and that
many such weapons may be deployed outside the scope of any
treaty.

We (the public) don't have any theory for the kind of warfare
we now face, and that is one thing that is deeply
frightening as we each attempt to theorize a defensive
strategy.

Well, we think the enemy is the only one willing to die for
his/her cause, but of course that's not true. We think the
enemy is the only one willing to inflict collateral damage
and civilian casualties, but historically that's not been
the case.

It's Armageddon because the weapons are such -- it's always
been that way; when you think about it, it is astonishing
nobody (ha!) noticed that before.

These events of the past two weeks are going to set off some
really world-class paranoid thinking, but the body politic
is unable to move at that speed, so there is some buffering
there. Sooner or later the politicians in Washington, D.C.
are going to notice that Congress *never* votes so
unanimously and that something is seriously broken in the
fundamentals of the political process -- that process has
been completely suspended.

This is like a jury that initially has only one dissenting
vote, that over the course of many hours deliberation, only
finds further dissent as others take heart and follow their
conscience and join the minority opinion and make it their
own (or, rather, stand on what they believe).

Our (American) leadership has failed; all are of one mind,
which is by definition suspect. The human condition does
not allow it; it is a primary symptom of group dysfunction.
When the anesthesia wears off, there are going to be many
in Congress who are going to ask the immortal question:

I drank *what*?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:10:13 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Troops mass on Afghan border
Message:

[ Page Link ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:11:38 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Sorry... here...
Message:

[ Page Link ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:12:23 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: damn
Message:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/0109/18/world/world1.html
[ Troops ]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:52:10 (EDT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot)
Message:
You say the FBI/CIA were clearly powerless...well, were they?Or does the excuse for war come in handy when the economy is going into recession - who benefits from war? The arms companies, those who want an excuse to enter foreign countries, those who want an excuse (the far right) to clamp down on citizen's freedoms...Nothing is as it seems, expecially with a weak President who can be pushed around. The best thing is to stop reading the newspapers (who are manipulating the strong emotions of us all towards war)and start thinking about who benefits from this situation. The way Hitler came to power in Germany was on the back of staged atrocities, beatings and lawlessness so that the he could promise a crack-down on those responsible (the Jews, gypsies etc)and thus establish his rule in what had been a republic.

Those behind the president, industrialists,investors and so on, have alot to gain from war - ordinary people don't.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:26:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Conspiracy thinking like this is stupid
Message:
You say the FBI/CIA were clearly powerless...well, were they?Or does the excuse for war come in handy when the economy is going into recession - who benefits from war? The arms companies, those who want an excuse to enter foreign countries, those who want an excuse (the far right) to clamp down on citizen's freedoms...Nothing is as it seems, expecially with a weak President who can be pushed around. The best thing is to stop reading the newspapers (who are manipulating the strong emotions of us all towards war)and start thinking about who benefits from this situation. The way Hitler came to power in Germany was on the back of staged atrocities, beatings and lawlessness so that the he could promise a crack-down on those responsible (the Jews, gypsies etc)and thus establish his rule in what had been a republic.

Those behind the president, industrialists,investors and so on, have alot to gain from war - ordinary people don't.


---

This type of thinking is grossly offensive. It's also stupid. But that's never stopped conspiracy lovers before, has it? I wonder about you guys. Sometimes, not always, but often enough, I think conspiracy lovers show the signs of a lack of good education. Call me a snob but I think that's the case. Why? Because a decent education teaches people critical thinking, something missing in posts like yours. All you're doing is playing the silly game of asking yourself who might possibly benefit, no matter how indirectly, from an event and then, without any consideration of the millions of obstacles in the way, attributing the event to those 'beneficiaries'.

You're a woman, right? A mom too? How would you like it if your child was killed and people started speculating that you were responsible because you wanted the insurance proceeds or just didn't want to hassle over the car on Friday nights? Hey, don't laugh, it's happened before. So why not now, huh? After all, why should anyone assume creativejani isn't an evil, deplorable human being? Others have killed their own before, so why not you? Oh, what's that? You're offended that someone would even think of anything so offensive in your 'hour of grief'? Hm, sounds like you're just trying to avoid talking about it....

Your ignorance, on this occasion, is insulting to the basic human decency of many, many people. Frankly, it makes you a lesser person. I'm disgusted.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:01:56 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Take Jim with a grain of salt or alum maybe Jani
Message:
It's always smart to follow the money trail which is another way of saying who benefits.

I don't however, think this is about money as much as it is about power and the New World Order. There will be serious discussion of a world army and ending nationalism in favor of globalism. Which by themselves are not necessarily bad, but I just wouldn't want the same crew who is current running the show to solidify their stranglehold on the rest of us any more than the already have.

Gerrrey the ninthe grade educashuner

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:07:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: You're being offensive too, Gerry
Message:
Gerry,

For you to imply that the U.S. government is somehow even remotely involved is offensive. I say the same thing to you as I did to creativejani. How do we know that you weren't responsible for your wife, Patty's, car accident? Maybe you were tired of her, huh? Maybe you just wanted to squeeze a few bucks out of Prudtential or something. Don't get me wrong, Ger, just following the money.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:28:14 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: You're being offensive too, Gerry
Message:
Jim,
The suspicion of private individuals is different than that of governments. The nature of world affairs and politics automatically throws a certain amount of suspicion on a world power in the 21st century. The U.S. in particular has a history of questionable activity that, if suspected at the time, could easily have fallen in the category of conspiracy theory. For instance, the involuntary use of African-Americans in medical experiments, the involuntary use of LSD on private citizens, the Iran-Contra affair, the CIA involvement in the drug trade. The list is so long, I can hardly remember all the incidents.

The problem isn't in considering that the U.S. could be involved in all sorts of dirty trickery and nasty deeds; it's in forming conclusions without anything more than vague suspicion.

Private individuals, on the other hand, are considered innocent until proven guilty. It's unfair to consider someone guilty of a crime without evidence, motive, opportunity, etc. In the case of a world power like the U.S., those elements are already there. I think it would be naive to not consider that people and institutions of great power aren't highly susceptible to being corrupt.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:36:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Where'd that come from?
Message:
Interesting principle, Rick, that private citizens somehow deserve greater presumption of innocence than governments but I've never heard it before. Nor does it make any sense to me. People are people, whether they're acting invidividually or as elected officials. There is no reason at all to think that any of the people in the U.S. government would even think of doing something like this. None of your examples of past dirty dealings even begin to come close to triggering such suspicion. This kind of thinking is vile.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:07:38 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Where'd that come from?
Message:
People are people, whether they're acting invidividually or as elected officials.

What is this, third grade? Okay, I see it now. Something in you is indeed offended, and that is the hardest thing to understand. It's as though there's something sacred there, in the echelon of the world-class power. These guys would never, ever do anything dastardly.

Not only is there no reason to think the U.S. government could have any complicity in the WTC incidents; you are absolutely convinced they couldn't.

See, I don't think they do have any involvement. But I'm willing to consider it, because it isn't impossible. I wouldn't dismiss it wholesale. Governments all over the world make huge compromises in morality to get to the end of the day.

Where do they stop? You seem to be certain where they stop, or at least where the U.S. stops. And I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion, except to think that that's where you want it to stop. That it would threaten some sense of order in you. Or something.

I think there's an element of over-toilet-training in the way you're processing logic on this. You're like an idiot-savant; able to hone in on subjects like maharaji with recklessly abandoned cynicism that cracks open a myth. But at the same time, struggling to poop out one lone pebble of crap stuck in your mental colon.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:26:26 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Yes, Rick, I'm an idiot savant, I guess
Message:
What is this, third grade? Okay, I see it now. Something in you is indeed offended, and that is the hardest thing to understand. It's as though there's something sacred there, in the echelon of the world-class power. These guys would never, ever do anything dastardly.

Do anything dastardly? Depends what you call dastardly, I guess. But this?? No, of course they wouldn't and to even begin to seriously think otherwise is disgusting. If there were harsher words, I'd use them.

Not only is there no reason to think the U.S. government could have any complicity in the WTC incidents; you are absolutely convinced they couldn't.

Well, sure, a lot of things are possible (not 'anything' although people like to say so). Castro could possibly be pulling the strings in the U.S. Supreme Court for all I know. So I won't say it isn't possible. But without any evidence supporting this absurd and offensive theory, you're damn right I'm absolutely convinced.

See, I don't think they do have any involvement. But I'm willing to consider it, because it isn't impossible. I wouldn't dismiss it wholesale. Governments all over the world make huge compromises in morality to get to the end of the day.

You insult my intelligence so allow me. You're falling into the same, obvious trap that all conspiracy thinkers are suckers for. Look at your language. First you say the thing isn't impossible. Fine, it's possible. Already conceded. The possibility, though, without any supporting evidence, is so incredibly minute that it's worthless but yes, possible. Your problem, though, is that, by not qualifying 'possible' you then take the next step, entirely unwarranted by the facts, and say you wouldn't dismiss the theory wholesale. Wow! From mere possibility to being a reasonable speculation. What a drift.

Then, once you've already categorized this silly idea far beyond its value, you start justifying it: Governments all over the world make huge compromises in morality to get to the end of the day.

Yes, governments do that, of course they do. But to say that this government made that compromise in morality ... to get to where, I have no idea ... is, again, ridiculous. There is nothing at all in U.S. history or current events to suggest that the U.S. government would ever do anything even remotely close to this evil act. Nothing.

Where do they stop? You seem to be certain where they stop, or at least where the U.S. stops. And I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion, except to think that that's where you want it to stop. That it would threaten some sense of order in you. Or something.

I'm talking common sense, Rick. Plain, simple common sense. The States has done a lot of questionable things in its history, as have all governments. But it has never, ever even come within the same solar system as the kind of thing you're speculating. Unless you can show me where they have, you can quit trying to psychoanalyze me and start apologizing to the many, many good and well-intentioned people in your government you're insulting like this. Oh, I know, they're just the government, they're not people. I forgot.

I think there's an element of over-toilet-training in the way you're processing logic on this. You're like an idiot-savant; able to hone in on subjects like maharaji with recklessly abandoned cynicism that cracks open a myth. But at the same time, struggling to poop out one lone pebble of crap stuck in your mental colon.

I go with the evidence, Rick. The evidence is that Maharaji's a blatant and ridiculous fraud. The evidence is that bin Laden and crew committed these atrocities. The evidence, Rick. The evidence.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:44:08 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Yes, Rick, I'm an idiot savant, I guess
Message:
and start apologizing to the
many, many good and well-intentioned people in your government you're insulting like this.

Okay, sorry Mr. Bush, I was bad and you were good. Oh yeah, and you too, Dick Cheney, I didn't mean it. You are really well-intentioned and would never cause people harm.

And Don Rumsfeld, come to think of it, you're a good guy too, well-intentioned. Sorry Mr. Don.

Oh yeah, Gale Norton, you're just a good gal. And let's not forget John Ashcroft, hell of a guy. Colin Powell, shit... the list goes on. I'm very, very sorry.

Say, Jim, while we're at it here, what is the evidence? Really, I'm curious if you really know. Don't look it up, spot quick, or anything. Just tell me what you already know, right now... what is the evidence the U.S. government has, right at this moment, that Bin Laden was directly involved with the WTC and Pentagon incidents on Sept. 11?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:11:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Yes, Rick, I'm an idiot savant, I guess
Message:
Rick, your faceitiousness is lost on me. Unless you've got some reason for saying that the various political figures you've named are not essentially good people, wipe the smirk off your face. You don't have the luxury of a position so overwhelmingly obvious that it needn't be argued.

As for why I personally am convinced bin Laden's behind this, well everything I've read and heard about the attack since Tuesday. Everything from his threats, his associations with the 19 dead hijackers, the intercepted phone call from two of his known agents gloating over their success at hitting two of the targets. Beyond that I don't have any reason to mistrust the U.S. government's intelligence on this. You sure haven't given me one.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:49:09 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Yes, Rick, I'm an idiot savant, I guess
Message:
I know you're convinced Bin Laden did it, but do you have evidence... can you prove it. I take it that's a no, because the U.S. is only calling him a prime suspect at this point. They aren't saying for sure it's him. Likely, it will turn out to be him.

My distrust of Bush and his cabinet comes from a combination of corruption in previous administrations and general policies that promote the fairness of democracy while ignoring the disenfranchisements of capitalism, including racial and economic inequality, abuse of the environment, erosion of legal rights and a questionable foreign policy.

But mostly, what informs your opinion that Bush is a likable enough guy, informs he that he's a schmuck and an ass, besides being stupid.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:29:17 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Institute of Mass Murder
Message:
Jim:

I've heard that Bin Laden's role in this stuff is similar to that of an institute that funds and supports various 'projects.' Someone under his sway writes a proposal and defends it. He decides to support it with whatever resources he has, tracks to see the deliverables are coming in on time, and provides what I think amounts to essential inspiration (cult leader style). He may very well not have issued orders directly connected with the WTC, which gives him some sort of plausible deniability within the fellow traveller crowd. But it's just shenanigans. I guess the difference is that there may be other 'projects' out there that haven't come to fruition yet and may live on after the head is lopped off. That worries me a bit. And they might still be around if we get rid of him, especially if they're in an advanced stage. Maybe there's an account book somewhere.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:46:12 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The Perfect Anology
Message:
Where's the evidence? A very good question and thank god Jim sticks to it. It's helped me immensely. But there is a lot of evidence of US atrocities. The only thing is that, not unlike the Maharaji cult, all the information and therefore access to evidence is controlled by the very entity under scrutiny, in this case the government. So we get the crumbs, whatever anyone can dig out and validate. But don't expect any expose by the very press which is so tightly controlled by the government.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:53:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Yes, Rick, I'
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:26:42 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Yes, Rick, I'
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:23:41 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim two questions
Message:
What would it take for you to be just a little suspicious of government?

And if one thinks that the government is corrupt why is it vile to think that they could have a hand in this tragedy? I think government involvement was limited to provocation, decades of provocation.

Take the TWA 800 flight. Is there really any thinking person out there, having examined the evidence, who doesn't believe this flight was shot down by a missle?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:31:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Two answers, Ger
Message:
What would it take for you to be just a little suspicious of government?

Depends about what. For me to be even 'just a little suspicious' that they were involved in this attack would take some credible evidence of which there is not, nor will there ever be, a scintilla. Conspiracy-addict 'pin-the-tail-on-the-possible-beneficiary' games don't cut it.

And if one thinks that the government is corrupt why is it vile to think that they could have a hand in this tragedy?

I don't think the government is 'corrupt'. Certainly not the way you've argued it is. I think the U.S. government can be selfish, hypocritical, misguided, clumsy and stupid at times. (Same for all governments, by the way). U.S. softwood lumber policy, for example, is about to bankrupt my province, for example, and I don't think they're fair in their argument that Canadian lumber's subsidized to the extent that prohibitive tariffs are fair or necessary. I deplore U.S. drug policy (Canada's seriously considering legalizing pot finally) and I detest U.S. gun policy. I think the U.S. played its hand wrong several times in the cold war, not always, but sometimes for sure. Sometimes, unfortunately, with terrible consequences. But I don't think the government is in any way corrupt. Hardly.

I think government involvement was limited to provocation, decades of provocation.

Yeah, sure, Ger. It was soooooooo provocative for the U.S. to run in to the middle east to fight back Iraq. God, it was as if they were just plain asking for Tuesday's attack, wasn't it?

Take the TWA 800 flight. Is there really any thinking person out there, having examined the evidence, who doesn't believe this flight was shot down by a missle?

Don't be silly.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:39:48 (EDT)
From: CNN
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: You're being offensive too, Gerry
Message:
Didn't FDR know about Pearl Harbor in advance? FDR wanted to get involved in WWII, but didn't have support from Americans to do so. After Pearl Harbor was bombed, FDR finally had the support to enter the war.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:47:45 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CNN
Subject: Think about your theory
Message:
Didn't FDR know about Pearl Harbor in advance? FDR wanted to get involved in WWII, but didn't have support from Americans to do so. After Pearl Harbor was bombed, FDR finally had the support to enter the war.

If the Japanese were on their way to attack Pearl Harbor, we would have gotten in the war anyway if we knew the attack was coming and fully prepared ourselves. It wouldn't have made sense for FDR to hide the fact that an attack was imminent. Japan was coming anyway, whether we knew about it or not. In fact, it would have been to our advantage to prepare ourselves for the attack. We might have won the war that much sooner if we had defeated Japan at Pearl Harbor.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 04:47:48 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Some historians think Churchill
Message:
and British Intelligence knew of, or had a really good inkling,of Japanese Pearl Harbor plans.

I don't think it was just based on 'conspiracy thinking'. I think some historians really delved into this issue.

Britain was DESPERATE for the US to be IN the war not just supplying arms/finance.

If true, it's very ironic , given that Churchill is a big hero of Americans and of Dubyas.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 05:31:32 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: and also
Message:
on the general topic of morals in time of war....

I don't think for a moment that the US Govt (ie rogue or sanctioned elements of US govt)had a hand in the Tuesday atrocities.Jeeeeeze , if that were the case I'd be gobsmacked, astounded,totally and utterly flabberghasted!!

However , once a war gets rolling then I think all governments sanction unintentional slaughter of innocent civilians AND intentional slaughter.

There was an intersting documentary last night on TV.The German controlled hard water factory in Norway was amssing the hard water needed for their nuclear bomb program.London was thought to be the first target of a successfully made bomb.

A British commando unit (but mostly consisting of Nowegians and some Danes, I think) were parachuted in behind lines. Took a few days in the freezing cold before they found their supply drops. Had to recon and hide for a couple months. Then more guys dropped in.

They managed to get into the fortress/factory (on a mountain in skiing country) and get down to the massive basement area undetected. Strapped the fuses etc on the main plant area then escape and ski away after a little shooting skirmish. They left a British Commando machine gun there so that the Germans would know it was A British Army operation thus hoping the Germans wouldn't take reprisals against the locals.

After the damage to the plant the Germans decided to relocate all the tanks of hard water from Norway to Germany.Brit Govt/ Intelligence worked out how the Germans would go about and decided the best option Was to blow up a ferry at its deepest point in the lake.

The unit stayed undercover for a month or so but remained in Norway awaiting instructions from London. When given their orders they realised the ferry would also be carrying a whole load of Norwegian school kids many of whom known by the commandos. The mens orders were ssanctioned by the Brit Govt and The Norwegian Govt in exile sanctioning the sacrifice of children.

They did indeed blow up the ferry after strapping detonators all round the middle section of the very bottom of the boat. The kids and the hard water tanks blown to smithereens.

Nasty stuff....but Good ? Bad? Right ? Wrong? .....tricky.

One mans morals could be another mans evil.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:15:22 (EDT)
From: CNN
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Think about your theory
Message:
You're correct, Jerry. I was late for an appointment and just tossed out a hit and run response without any qualification, and I should have mentioned it was a theory and not a known and documented fact.

Evidently, the theory arose due to speculation about FDR meeting with two Japanese ambassadors just several days before the bombing. There was also some documentation, but it wasn't airtight conclusive, so some doubt remained.

Something I didn't know, but which I just found out when talking to a history buff friend tonight is that many people thought Roosevelt was Jewish and that's one reason such speculation arose. Evidently people actually called Roosevelt a 'Jew bastard,' so they assumed the worst about his behavior and policies. They didn't realize Roosevelt is a Dutch name and not Jewish, not that that excuses their ignorance.

Also, I certainly didn't, and don't, mean to imply that such a scenario is taking place now. The current tragedy and some posts here reminded me of the FDR theory.

Thanks.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:46:09 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: CNN
Subject: absolutamente (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:22:35 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: War is Business
Message:
Jim, I understand your faith in the establishment, you've been brainwashed by the subliminal ULF's from your TV set, but remember these are pretty much the same bunch who brought the Vietnam war.

No, I really can't understand your attitude. You actual have faith in our leaders? You actually think they have our best intentions at heart? Did you ever read Kissinger's plan for population reduction? Does anyone else know I threw Patty from the train?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:26:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: In this case war is religion
Message:
Ger,

It's impossible to tell what you actually believe and what you say just for effect.

By the way, on a different note altogether, why is CD allowed to post here? Isn't the fact that he's blocked me and Deb from his own fourm enough to earn him some sort of reciprocal non-privileges?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:26:05 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim Jim Jim
Message:
By the way, on a different note altogether, why is CD allowed to post here? Isn't the fact that he's blocked me and Deb from his own fourm enough to earn him some sort of reciprocal non-privileges?

Shhhhhhh. We are at a delicate stage in the negotiations. He's about to order 16 Lyngcastors, 4 wedge guitars, two Walkabout (TM) dulcimers and an acoustic bass. Hey Xmas is right down road and I've got a family to feed.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:24:52 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Could I have a real answer, please?
Message:
Gerry,

When CD blocked us I thought you made a point about him not being able to then continue posting here. As I recall, you assumed in the circumstances that he wouldn't think of posting here. But now he has, he does and I'm asking if you'd please just block him. Basic fairness.

On the other hand, I do have to say that he's amazingly funny in his dippy, wooden cult identity. Someone sent me another CD post a little while ago. He was pontificating about the evil greed of rampant materialism or something. How many guitars has he bragged about buying this year?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:52:07 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Could I have a real answer, please?
Message:
Jim, I think it was thirteen.

You really want me to block him? You got it.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:03:59 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Ah, come on Jim and Gerry
Message:
I can always bring interesting stuff from LG here for you, Jim. The only intersting thing today was the new website. So, I brought it over.

CD really does not have any malicious or mischievous motivations and is definitely very modest compared with the brazen and insulting impudence of SC et al.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:16:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Yes and no, Pat
Message:
Pat,

Thanks for the offer and I know from time to time you do drop little LG nosegays here. But I disagree with you about CD. I think he does get a sick satisfaction from frustrating people. He certainly knows he does that and has never once done anything but glare his wooden cult stare at us when asked.

It's like this. We're in our minds. Mind is bad. So if CD can give our minds a tweak here or there, fine. Are you expecting an answer from CD for something? Well, that's your problem for expecting anything. Get out of your mind and get back to enjoying Life being Great. There, that'll teach you.

In that respect, CD is the epitome of passive aggressive. The word was coined for him.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:45:44 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: In this case war is religion
Message:
Over the past 25 years, the U.S. has committed acts of war against Afghanistan, Libya, Iraq, and Sudan, creating large groups of enemies who are just hungering for revenge. In addition, the U.S. arms, finances (3 billion a year) and protects Israel, whose brutal repression of Palestinians is broadcast nightly on television to the world’s 1.2 million Muslims.

So what we have here Jim is a whole bunch of really angry men. Combine that anger with Islam and bad things happen. I anyone has seen the film “Lawrence of Arabia” you know that unfortunately Muslims have a history of warfare and hold grudges for hundreds of years.

Trouble is the monotheistic religions of Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all chauvinistic and militant, i.e. on the march to conquer the world and to establish itself as the one and only true belief. All three religions have believers and infidels, us and them. God is seen as a Father-King who rules by force like the paranoid monarchs of old. All three religions belong to the same destructive club.

Compare that to the relatively tolerant, laid back and pacific religions of Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism, where God is seen as the Cosmic Mother, the inmost Self, the flowing energy of life, or no image at all, as with Buddhists. So IMO it depends on the religion.

The sad truth is, Americans are now experiencing the terror and anguish that people in the Mideast have been experiencing for the past 50 years.

Gee, if only we had a way to get off that vicious cycle.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:14:29 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Armageddon worried now...(ot)
Message:
Nigel, I was also quite dismayed by those polls, but I really think you are seeing 'heat-of-the-moment' here (I believe the polls you are referring to were taken on Wednesday or Thursday after the attack.)

A lot of good people I know did have the urge to retaliate right away because the events were so shocking and they wanted to DO something to avenge the people who were killed. But almost all of them are seeing the other side now, and realizing this ain't gonna be easy.

I believe that part of the reason you are hearing such strong rhetoric from Bush et al. is because the administration knows that military action is going to cost American lives because they are not going to be able to do this without ground troops. People here don't want that, especially those who remember VietNam - and this could be a lot like VietNam (except it would have a point...) I think that *some* Americans may believe this can be solved from afar - by bombs, missles, etc., but I think they are wrong - and I also believe both Colin Powell and Dick Cheney know this - probably even Bush, too.

My sister has a high-school age son, and she said all the high school kids are talking about being drafted, and most of them are afraid. This has really changed people's lives in the US - and it's still sinking in.

JMHO, as always -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 11:43:00 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Look at it another way
Message:
American governments have shown in recent years that they are loath to cause civilian casualties and I think that even though some red-necks might not care, the US military will be going out of their way to avoid civilian deaths. Listening to Powell the other day where he outlined how difficult this war would be and how going in with ground troops was the only way, I doubt that we'll see carpet bombing of civilians.

I forsee a long protracted war similar to Vietnam. The terrorists will bomb America and Britain with nuclear and chemical weapons if they're given half a chance. They don't need an excuse. It is the terrorists who are opposed to any peace processes in the Middle East and they bomb in order to thwart any peace processes. We've seen the same thing with Northern Ireland, of course.

I think people are wrong if they surmise that the terrorists attacked America because of a lack of progress in the Middle Rast.

If the terrorists were really concerned about the Palestinian issue, they would have attacked Israel and not America. We're dealing with a large cult of Muslim fanatics who see America as the Great Satan. They will attack, whatever America or the West does. So we've no choice but to wipe them out before they have the capability to bomb us with nuclear or chemical weapons. That is the real danger and like the Second World War where we sent ground troops in to locate and destroy Germany's nuclear capability, we have to do the same now.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 13:02:27 (EDT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Look at it another way
Message:
'Wipe them out?' Oh really, how can you wipe out people who have no outward signs of being terrorists, who are ready to be 'activated' at any time, who see dying as the ultimate glory? You can't threaten them, you can't fight ideas with weapons - just ensure more innocent people die. If America had taken the threats and warnings about attacks seriously (assuming they didnt want them, in order to have an excuse to go to war) they could have organised security in airports and prevented most of the deaths last Tuesday. Why do Americans never look to themselves, learn lessons - why is it always 'let's go over there and bomb/kill them into submission? The only antidote to hate is love - this is a test for all of us to see what we REALLY believe in. Striking out is the first response - but don't we try and teach children not to do that, why is it o.k for countries to follow this primal response? Hasn't Vietnam taught our leaders anything - you can't fight terrorism with force - you must use intelligence, vigilance, brain not brawn. Or we'll all suffer more carnage, needlessly.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:35:38 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Intelligence is the best answer
Message:
I agree with you about that. The only way this can really be dealt with is to infiltrate those organizations on the ground so we will know if some attack is going to take place. But from what I've read, it will take a decade for our moribund intelligence services to get to that point. I think it really is the key, though.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:10:45 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Intelligence is the best answer
Message:
Joe:

Of course our ability to infiltrate is dependent on the number and quality of Moslem recruits and informants, the best of all reasons for treating Islam with respect and the Islamic world with some 'intelligence.' A decade? We could do a lot in two years, with the right breaks. Just speculating. I know about as much about the intelligence community as you, which is to say practically nothing. Just what I hear on CNN.

I'd also hate to see us cut back on the sort of high tech intelligence and code breaking that has served us so well, either. It may well be an important element in the fight. And Islamic terrorism isn't the only threat, unfortunately.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 05:49:55 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Intelligence is the best answer
Message:
Britain has a whole heap of intelligence from its contacts in the Gulf and Middle East. On Newsnight the other night a report stated that Britain was handing over loads of 'For Brit eyes ' only stuff.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:06:25 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Don't forget their funding
Message:
Before anybody can do anything, they need the money to do it. If the terrorists can't find a supplier or financer, they're not going to be very effective.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:33:27 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: America waking up
Message:
I mean wipe out the terrorist training camps and arsenals of chemical and nuclear weapons. Bin Laden and Saddam Hussain both have or are nearly at nuclear capability. That needs to be wiped out. That should have been done years ago and I suspect that last week's attacks finally woke up the US government to the danger.

American security at airports was the most lax in the world up until last Tuesday. Again, they have just woken up to what the rest of the world already new.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:18:41 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: America waking up
Message:
David:

Just talked with my sister who flew out here from Seattle yesterday. The arrived at the airport 2.5 hours prior to departure, and it took them 3 hours to reach the head of the check-in line. Once on the plane the door was locked and they went through more security procedures. Ultimately the plane left 2.5 hours late and 5 hours after they arrived at the Airport. If this continues the Airlines won't survive. But at least the crowding at airports and stacking of planes waiting to land has been relieved.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:39:38 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Airport Security
Message:
Dave,

I thought it was amazing that the terrorists didn't do anything illegal in bringing the knives and box-cutters on the planes they hijacked. They aren't forbidden.

But what's really amazing is that airport security is handled by the airlines, and they hire outside vendors who do it, who are paid very low wages and have incredible turnover (110% per year at SFO). At SF International, the people who run the x-ray screening machines are paid LESS than the people who clean the tables at the restaurants in the airport. I have personally seen the person behind the machine not even LOOKING at the bags as they went through. Lax isn't the word for it.

I have to get on a plane in a couple of weeks and I'm not looking forward to it. One thing I will do, is talk to all the people around me on the plane and get to know them a little. Can't hurt to do that.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:56:12 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Airport Security
Message:
You've certainly opened up my eyes there about the airline security in the US.

The last time I went on domestic flights in the USA we could see the pilots sitting in the cockpit and there was no locked door in between them and the passengers. In fact, the door was open. I thought at the time that it was cool and friendly. I know now that in Europe certainly, the pilots are locked securely into their cockpits.

I am still staggered that armed guards, armed with stun guns or something similar, aren't deployed on all flights. It would push the ticket price up but would also mean that the airline industry would not be about to go out of business because people would feel much safer about flying. Failure to deploy in-flight security like that will mean far, far less people will be willing to fly and many carriers will go out of business.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:04:38 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Airport Security
Message:
One area of flight security that hasn't been considered are large private corporate jets. They're totally out of the scope of airline security and carry huge amounts of fuel. Although you wouldn't need to worry about being on one when it's hijacked, they could easily be used like the ones in the WTC incidents.

And don't forget small aircraft that can be reached in any town by just hopping a chain-linked fence. They aren't hard to hot wire, and at night, no one would see a bomb being loaded aboard.

But I think the whole aircraft thing is passe now, anyways. If you were a terrorist, what would you be thinking about targetting? Probably not another airplane, because that's where all the attention is. You'd be eyeballing another area where no one's even looking. I don't understand why the media and the government isn't thinking 'outside the box' on this.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:12:52 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: What Gets Me the Most
Message:
In 1993, some terrorists planted a big bomb in the the basement garage at WTC and some people were killed. In yet another example of closing the barn door after the horse has escaped, you probably could NEVER do that again. But, hey, what about from the air? It's like they never thought about it as being even possible. Clearly WTC were seen as the target of choice, (I guess because they represent US International Capitalism or something),but hadn't we thought about how they were vulnerable? Now, we are, but I think the people paid to think about that stuff clearly failed, big time. And the fact that somebody could fly a plane into the Pentagon is just amazing.

Clearly, this was a massive intelligence failure, but I think also a security failure of the highest order.

BTW, I do not for a minute believe Air Force One was a target. I think that was said (with zero proof) because the White House felt it looked bad that New York and DC were blowing up and the President was flying off to Louisiana, and then Nebraska in a bunker. Somehow I don't see Franklin Roosevelt or Dwight Eisenhower doing that, even if they were advised to do so. Bush, on the other hand, isn't home. He does ONLY what he's advised.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:44:57 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: What Gets Me the Most
Message:
Hi Joe,
Personally, I think there is too much ground to cover. While you're looking up they'll hit you from below, and visa versa. I don't really blame the government for not considering the possiblity of hitting buildings from the air. Sure it's possible, but how probable was it? No one had done it before.

What about the water supply? Is anyone guarding that? Or could someone just walk up to the reservoir and dump in a biological agent?

How about the food supply at a large university cafeteria? Is there anything at all from stopping someone from contaminating that and killing a thousand of our smartest and brightest at Harvard?

The fact is, a society with hundreds of millions of people can't protect itself from terrorism. You'd have to cover every hole, and that's impossible. Whatever holes you can cover, would be exactly where the terrorists wouldn't hit.

So unfortunately, we have to wait and deal with the most likely. Up until Sept. 11, it looked unlikely we needed to worry about people hijacking planes in to buildings.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:16:34 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Biological warfare
Message:
What about the water supply? Is anyone guarding that? Or could someone just walk up to the reservoir and dump in a biological agent.

The authors of this book 'Germs', about biological warfare, were on Larry King last night. They said that it's unlikely that contaminating the water would be effective because of all the chlorine and 'other stuff' in it that would probably kill whatever harmful germs are introduced to it. It's most likely that biological warfare would be relaeased into the air. Their advice if it is? Stay indoors and wait for the rescuers.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 10:25:46 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Biological warfare
Message:
Yeah, I saw that interview. When the guy mentioned chlorine it seemed pretty weak. There isn't that much chlorine. It just means they'd have to add more germs.

And the advice about staying indoors was hilarious. I kept studying the panels faces wondering if someone wanted to say, 'Go out and buy a gas mask, and keep it handy', but didn't want to cause a panic.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:49:37 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: True, Rick
Message:
Although, I know that in California there have been a lot of steps taken to protect the water supply. I know there are lots of targets, but WTC was already attacked once. That makes that situation different. Plus, the billions we spend on the intelligence services ought to be providing better results, especially now. It's not like we can just watch Soviet troop and nuclear activities from a Satellite. Plus, I don't think those guys use the phone.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:29:38 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Should we really blame intelligence?
Message:
The thing that people are forgetting, I think, is that this is not the first time terrorists have attempted to attack on this scale. With a few exceptions, they've just failed up until now. Everybody is acting as if this is the first time we've been attacked on our shores. It's not, and I'm not just talking about the attack in '93 on the WTC. Terrorists had big plans for a coordinated attack during Millenium celebrations. Simultaneously, they were going to hit the Space Needle in Seattle, Los Angeles Airport, and I think the Holland Tunnel in New York, as well as a fourth target I can't recall. The only reason it didn't happen was because Canadian border guards caught one of the terrorists trying to cross the border with 100 pounds of explosives hidden in the trunk of his car. I think there was also a plan that was thwarted where terrorists were, simultaneously, going to blow up 11 commercial airline flights flying over the Pacific. So, let's not come down too hard on our intelligence agencies. Up until last tuesday, they've actually been doing a pretty good job. And this is in the midst of complaints that they were ill funded and ill prepared because of a lack of interest on behalf of the public to combat terrorism. Hopefully, in the wake of last week's attacks and with increased funding, they'll now do an even better job than they've already been doing.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:24:58 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Yes, we should
Message:
The intelligence services have opted to not invest in 'people,' in the on-the-ground infiltrators you need to know what's going on. Instead they have relied on technological fixes like satellites. Well, these groups know this and have figured out how to communicate in ways we can't detect. I think they might be learning that there isn't any way to just not have the actual spies on the ground.

I thought it was interesting that today the head of the FBI was asking, on CNN, for people who can translate Arabic and Farsi. The fact is, we don't even have the language translators in those angencies that we need.

That, in addition to the shoddy way the CIA is run (and the FBI hasn't been so great recently either) are all reasons not only to properly fund them, but really hold them accountable for major reforms.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:09:38 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Yes, we should ..yes/no
Message:
Israels Mossad is one of the best,if not the best,intelligence services in the world. A top ex-KGB guy, now living in Britain thought that the Brits had the best intelligence during the 'cold war' period. (or else he was flattering his hosts, of course)....but anayway...Britain and Israel both have quite effective intelligence services (at a fraction of US costs by the way)yet terrorists STILL manage to stike in both countries.

It's not so easy to stop a single terrorist or a group of terrorists.
Obviously it's more like a game of chess as opposed to a game of rugby or US football. So it's not even a 'whole other ball game' it's not a ball game at all.

I agree though that in the case of the WTC it is different. It was already a target and so intelligence/security should have been alert and have been prepared to think not just the 'thinkable' but also the 'un-thinkable'.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:19:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That's pretty strong language, Joe
Message:
Joe,

You that certain that the government lied about Air Force One being a target? I admire your confidence. Of course, if you're wrong, you'll extend the appropriate apologies to everyone involved in this ugly deceit?

By the way, it appears that the FBI and CIA knew that the Islamic extremists were considering this very type of plan back in '93. They found plans or speculations about doing just this in the siezed papers of the WTC bombers. Of course that's probably a lie too. ;)

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:31:06 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: They knew about it?
Message:
They knew that an airliner attack on WTC was in the works? That's the first time I heard that, although IMO that makes it even worse that there wasn't something done about it.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:37:30 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: They knew about it?
Message:
I don't have the complete story, but the Mossad and German intelligence warned some months ago of an eminent attack. I mean imminent. God, that ninthe grade education is still coming back to haunt me.

I wonder what could have been done in light of the warning. Tighten airport security, air defence of DC, anything?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:45:20 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Jim said they knew in 1993
Message:
....not just recently.

The skepticism about Air Force One being a target is beginning to be raised in the press as well. Air Force One was in Florida at the time, with the president, who then flew with it to Nebraska. While it appears Camp David was a target, no one has provided any evidence that there was yet another plane, on its way to Florida to smash into Air Force One. That's why I don't believe it.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:42:29 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Jim said they knew in 1993
Message:
I find the notion that AF1 was a target to be completely implausible. A slow plane (400mph) with no offensive weapons and novice pilots is going to be a serious threat to a plane at least as fast with a crew of veteran (and probably ex-fighter) pilots, with a fighter escort? Not bloody likely! So, if somebody was touting this story they were either making it up, or were consulting with Gerry.

BTW, the CIA is a basket case. They have not benefitted from the enormous organizational and planning changes that have ocurred in the Pentagon. Langley is populated by fundamentalist Christians who 'tattle' on one another. Pure crap. Maybe they'll change now. There are good people there, of course. Maybe I'll apply. Of course, I'm a bit worried they'll find out I like women with big butts.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:17:13 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I heard this on the TeeVee
Message:
Scott,it was widely reported that one of the hijacked planes had somehow threaten AF1. I found this implausible and unlikely also. However, this was the reason given at the time for the president going where he did and not returning to DC.

Don't get me wrong, I think it was the prudent thing to do, staying away, given the uncertainty.

Big butts, huh? Well, an old bachelor guy like you best settle for what he can get. Even if that means skinny legs and all. :)

Look Scott, I'm actually fond of you even if I'm a little jealous of your obvious intellectual prowess and your superb education. But jeez it seems like you are living in a bell jar sometimes.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:51:17 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Jim said they knew in 1993
Message:
Also, how could an airliner hit Air Force One? First, how would they know it's exact location? Would they hit it while it was on the ground? How would they know the Pres was on board? Hit it while moving? Now that's a stretch?
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:00:54 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: last time I flew
Message:
This June. They were so behind and disorganized they didn't check my papers correctly just glanced and sent me to the wrong gate, didn't even ask the 3 questions.
Oddly enough on the other half of the connecting flight my bag was searched don't ask me why! I don't want to think they were just filling quotas and picked me randomly but what else could it be and the guy answered me when I asked why, 'you have a friendly face'
eesh!!!
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:32:32 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Your pomposity is gross
Message:
First, as I said before, your suggestion that America might have actually purposely invited this attack is disgusting. You say the 'only antidote to hate is love' but I get the impression that you're the last person to really understand what love is. You've got lessons to teach? How funny.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:31:57 (EDT)
From: Mail Carrier
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Milli at LIG
Message:
Posted: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:55:22 (EDT)
Original: NA
Posted by: Mili Recipient: All
Email Address: Not Provided
Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0)
Message Count: 17 visits (17 today, 17 this week, 17 this month, 17 this year)

Subject: Interesting article
Message:

Why the 'anti-cult' movement is worse than any 'cult'.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/acm.htm

Poor soul, he reads those sites wishing to convince himself 'his cult' is good enough, yeah, is better than nothing because without one many would be NOTHING.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:59:32 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: sore tongue
Message:
I've been away for several days, and I have missed all the posts regarding the terrorist attacks last week. I am hoping to look over them later. I've been around premies for a week and my tongue is sore from biting it so as not to ask, 'So. Where is your Lord of the Universe, now?' 'So. Where is the Peace Bomb?' This is rawat's 'guarantee of peace'? Thanks. I prefer war. At least war has defined enemies.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:35:08 (EDT)
From: SILVIA
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Please FA, BLOCK SC nt
Message:
yes
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:08:57 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji's offering re tragedy
Message:
A premie sent me this from Maharaji's website:

Heartfelt condolences to all the victims and innocent people who have been touched by this tragedy.

In this hour of need, dear God 
Grant us your grace, 
Guide us from darkness to light 
From confusion to clarity 
From pain to joy 
From hate to love. 
Give us the strength to endure. 
Give us the courage to go on. 
Bless us with your kindness.

Maharaji

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:25:10 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Maharaji's offering re tragedy
Message:
My initail reaction was that this was somehow forced form him, like blood from a turnip. How contrite and insincere and selfserving a statement such as this is supposed to offer comfort and hope is beyond me. I noticed that the pwk's who fawned over these words were also the emptiest, and that indeed was a sorry sight.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:19:05 (EDT)
From: ****
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Maharaji's offering re tragedy
Message:
My name is Djerko, I drool a lot and fart in public. Most people avoid me since my lobotomy last year. I
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:28:29 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Nauseating
Message:
Sorry, I can't take this seriously. I just think Maharaji is the most contrived person around, and I don't take anything he says as being sincere.

So, tell me, Maharaji: where have you and 'God' been up till now? Was God on vacation when those buildings and all those people were destroyed? Has he been 'blessing us' with his kindness recently?

Also, are you implying that if people had 'knowledge' that they wouldn't be terrorists, experience hate, suffer, or die when buildings collapse? I don't think so, because Maharaji gave up talking about how he would bring peace to the world, like he promised 30 years ago, when it became clear to even his most gullible followers that he was incapable of ever doing it, or even trying.

No, nothing like that, just a plea for God's grace, although Maharaji apparently maintains you don't even have to believe in God to be a premie, but contradictions have never seemed to bother him.

So, tell me, what good is it? If any premies died in WTC, did they have some advantage over the others by following their breath as they crashed to their deaths?

Also, isn't it interesting that Maharaji's website has some kind of a statement, such as it is, about the events in the USA, but when that big earthquake in India happened a few months ago, we heard not a peep from Mr. Rawat on his website, despite that fact that his puny number of followers in the West is tiny compared to those who supposedly follow him in India. Cynic that I am, I think this has something to do with where most of Mr. Rawat's income is obtained.

I know this is cynical, but given Maharaji's almost total disregard for anyone but himself, for his entire life, I have a hard time thinking he is really coming from a place of compassion.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 14:58:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Check out his cult member's response
Message:
Here's Karen Plaxton's response from ELK:

Karen Plaxton:

A new day

From Manila in the Philippines

This morning I awoke to another day, much like any of the past few days, hearing news about the terrible madness that has again taken grip of this world. Being human, I have felt deep grief at what has just recently happened...

Here she sounds like a Conehead, reminding herself that she's 'human' searching for something akin to a 'human' response. Her real feelings emerge a little further down.

I fix myself breakfast, take care of my chores, no time yet spent on myself, and my beautiful heaven. Wearily I switch on the computer and proceed to take care of my responsibilities both to my friends and family that have corresponded with me, and for my 'little' participation that I have given a commitment to.

Cult members seek the refuge of their cult experience as a default. That's what it's all about. But Karen here must also begrudgingly play the 'human' role too. So if her family wants to connect with her half-way around the world in an unsettled political climate itself besieged by muslim extremists, she'll oblige. She'll send them an email or two. But that's not really what it's all about, is it?

The message to go to the light, to read the words of my master, spurred me on to wake up a little. And with human curiosity and a student's anticipation I clicked on the light.

Again, the laughably arms-length comment about her questionable 'humanity', now juxtaposed with a 'student's' emotions. And all to what end? So she can 'click on the light' on Maharaji's website. What is she? A trained pigeon?

His words, so caring for humanity and its madness... his warmth and compassion touched me so deeply, so profoundly, that once again, tears well in my eyes, and I thank god over and over for allowing such a man to exist amongst us.

Anyone outside of her cult would see Maharaji's insipid comments as, at best, entirely ordinary. No different, say, than Yassar Arafat's (the guy who released from prison all the convicted Hamas terrorists so they too could express themselves in the recent Intifada). But Karen sees God himself in these words and is overwhelmed. Wonder what she'd say if she could have heard Maharaji's words as he directed the fugitive flight of his own would-be assassin, Fakiranand, some years ago.

Oh Maharaji, how sweet to be remembered by you, how great you place me in this multitude. Thank you for giving me your love, and may I never get lost in darkness again, and may you never have to know the sadness that past masters have suffered for being so kind.

I love you from the bottom of my heart.

Religion is the root cause of this latest attack. There is no doubt about it. It's time we turned away from a false belief system, no matter what flavour, and learned to appreciate our lives for what they are, miraculous, chance effects of a wondrous, unplanned and undirected phenomenon called evolution. No masters to guide us, no sheiks to direct fatwas (as the senior sheik of Pakistan did a few years ago against all Americans). No popes, priests, reverands or rabbis to explain to us the mysterious workings of an imaginary God. No Falwells or Robertsons either.

Sooner or later you'd think the truth would prevail. It's not like it has to but it seems to always have before. That must be the reason that now, centuries after people first learned the world was round, we all accept that as true, save and except for a few freaks hardly worth mention. Well, the case for evolution is just as overwhelming as that for a round earth. So when, I wonder. When will we as a species finally learn? I know, some say never. They say that the emotional grasp religion and spirituality has on us is so deeply ingrained we'll never give it up. My solace, though, is in the knowledge that there's never before been such an important scientific understanding that hasn't ....eventually ... gained universal acceptance.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:06:26 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Check out his cult member's response
Message:
''His words, so caring for humanity and its madness... his warmth and compassion touched me so deeply, so profoundly, that once again, tears well in my eyes, and I thank god over and over for allowing such a man to exist amongst us. Oh Maharaji, how sweet to be remembered by you, how great you place me in this multitude. Thank you for giving me your love, and may I never get lost in darkness again, and may you never have to know the sadness that past masters have suffered for being so kind.
I love you from the bottom of my heart.''

I think I am going to be sick Rawat cares for nothing but himself and his finances
---
get that through your heads, please. You are all making asses of yourselves. Please stop. It's a disgrace.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:51:10 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Amen!
Message:
Jim said: ''Religion is the root cause of this latest attack. There is no doubt about it. It's time we turned away from a false belief system, no matter what flavour, and learned to appreciate our lives for what they are, miraculous, chance effects of a wondrous, unplanned and undirected phenomenon called evolution. No masters to guide us, no sheiks to direct fatwas (as the senior sheik of Pakistan did a few years ago against all Americans). No popes, priests, reverands or rabbis to explain to us the mysterious workings of an imaginary God. No Falwells or Robertsons either.''

Nearly all current wars have religion as their root cause (Ireland, the Fillipines.) Although some appear to be ethnic, (the Balkans) religion is mixed in the deadly cocktail. Even WW11 included a religious holocaust.

Exposing Rev Rawat is only a part of my complete detestation of atavistic religious beliefs.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:07:16 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I can't resist it!
Message:
    Imagine -- John Lennon

    Imagine there's no heaven
    It's easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today...

    Imagine there's no countries
    It isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace...

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will be as one

    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world...

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will live as one

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:44:34 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Perfect timing :)
Message:
Send that to Bush. You could post it right on the Website.

Hi JohnT,

Hope you and the mrs are well.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:09:13 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Glad you couldn't resist it! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:38:34 (EDT)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: how profund
Message:
HOW MUCH MONEY DID HE DONATED?

IS HE GIVING BLOOD?

WHAT GOD?

HE IS THE DARKNESS OF THE WORLD.

HE IS UNKIND, HE TORTURES PEOPLE'S MENTALLY TRANSMITTING CONFUSSION.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:30:18 (EDT)
From: Arjuna
Email: None
To: All
Subject: M's bro (Satpal Ji Maharaj) writes Bush
Message:
Remember my Name and fight or Satpal goes to Washington
http://manavdharam.org/news/usa_terror.html
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:41:51 (EDT)
From: Now's the time for the Malibu Rawat
Email: None
To: Arjuna
Subject: to do some serious satsanging
Message:
of Bush, the Taliban and Bin Laden. I'm sure they would like to know that that which they are looking for is within inside and he just happens to be the dude who's got the key but they must come to him with the innocense of a child. and as a reward for their humbling themselves to him he MAY let them kiss his foot.

He holds the solution to all their problems but if they have problems they should see a psychiatrist because these are problems not covered by the blanket statement of 'the solution to all their problems' but by giving him money he can help others find the solution to all their problems.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:44:16 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: Now's the time for the Malibu Rawat
Subject: Re: to do some serious satsanging
Message:
Yo bush,

I condone terrorisim too. I also hate cults, especially those that are run by slimmy ass Indians gurus, do you think you can ask the FBI to do something about it?

Thank bud,

Salam

To Mr Bush from the White House of America

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 01:07:07 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: William Butler Yeats/Joni Mitchell
Message:
In her album, ''Night Ride Home'' Joni Mitchell used the words of W.B. Yeats in the following poem to write a beautiful song, here is his poem:

The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Over and out, it's late, I've said more than I should, I've lashed out to those who don't deserve it and to those who do. I am afraid. I wish I could sing Joni's song to you right now.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:15:30 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: William Butler Yeats/Joni Mitchell
Message:
I wish you could sing it too. Are you are soprano? I can't ever remember hearing that or I did but didn't listen to the words because of not being a big Mitchell fan. But I know the poem well and have never understood the last two lines. The riddle of the sphinx. Maybe I'm just dumb but I can't believe that Yeats meant it to sound as obvious as it does. Thanks for that.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:58:54 (EDT)
From: Kitty
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Hydra-headed Monster
Message:
Many commentators are now saying that killing Bin Laden will not do any good. It will be like chopping off one of the Hydra's heads. Two more will spring forth. Bin Laden will be a martyr as PatC said (Hi PatC, I'm a big fan of yours. I read all your posts) and ten more will spring up to take his place.

I've been reading this forum for a while but have not posted before because I did not feel that I had anything to say. There are just so many brilliant writers here like Jim and Joe and Anth. But this terror attack has simply forced me to say something. Also this sorrow is something that we all share in common whether we are premies or expremies. I just wanted to let you all know that I have been so impressed with all the brilliant posts here this week. And that my heart goes out to all of you. My prayer is that God helps us in this hour of our need and suffering.

Yes, I am a premie and I was very pleased to see that M posted a prayer for our suffering on his website. I know that most of you will hate me and tell me to go away but I just wanted to tell you that I really agree with nearly everything that most of you say. I have never really been involved with the cult but yes, I do love M as my friend and companion in need. He is not responsible for what the weird people who run the cult do. He really is a very live and let live kind of guy.

My dad has been close to him for years and I have had the chance to speak to him in private a couple of times and I always came away feeling so loved and blessed. His smile is so sweet and his eyes are full of compassion one minute and fun the next. I think half the problem is that expremies didn't really get to know him and therefore have a false impression.

Anyway I won't go on too much about that (otherwise PatC will accuse me of being a cult apologist hee hee) because I really am not in the cult. And yes, there is a cult. M always warned us about that and some of us took that to heart and realized that our connection was inside and not in this temporary world. The beauty is inside. K shows us what is immortal and everlasting within us. I'm just sorry that you all got so hurt by the external trappings of the cult like the ashram etc.

So I just basically wanted to say that you are all in my prayers that whatever pain was caused to you will be lifted and that you will one day realize that anger and hate are not the way but true love is.

Pussy Weasel Kitty (channeled by PatC)

Sorry guys for doing that to you but I am trying to make a point about the cult apologists who post here. Isn't it funny how two heads pop up for every one Hydra who is chopped up? Isn't it funny how none of them are in the cult but just love M as a friend? Isn't it funny that they all claim to be posting from Australia? Isn't it funny that, no matter how sweet the Cerises, Marolyns and SCs are at first, when they are challenged their claws come out and they begin to hiss viciously? Isn't it funny that they all have the same sarcastic sense of humor and enjoy yanking our chains and laughing at us when we take the bait? Isn't it funny how they all end up sounding just like the author of CAC?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:18:26 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Kitty
Subject: Re: The Hydraulic- Pussy Monster
Message:
Pat , you can a very paranoid person sometimes. I think that you give me more techo credit than I deserve. Perhaps you should appraise the Australian character if you want the real answer to your question. There is no doubt that it is easy to mask location and identity quite easily. To be blunt Pat, I simply haven't got the time to wage the cyber war you have me conspiring.
Pat I was here a long time before you were. If you check with Katie you will find I have always given BIG hints as to my Cat like nature.
Like attracts like Pat.Screwballs will joust with screwballs. Leave it alone. If I wanted to fuck with you , you'd be rubbing your arse and wondering what happened before you blinked. Take it on board once and for all - there is only one Catweasel(aren't you lucky?) For the rest I cannot speak. There is someone up in Northern New South Wales with that sort of time and inclination. Kinda BENT. Sniff that one out Pat. He likes 2/1 or shorter.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:23:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: The Hydraulic- Pussy Monster
Message:
I honestly don't understand you. Sometimes you seem smart and other times just dumb or pretending to be dumb. Did I mention your name? No! I was merely borrowing some inspiration from you.

I am NOT stupid (I may be a slow learner but I learn thoroughly.) If I had meant you I would have specifically mentioned you. I deliberately did not.

Now who's paranoid - no that's unfair. I should say: Now who thinks it's always about themselves?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:00:29 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: With Teeth!!!!
Message:
Ahhh you be a lotta fun ole Pat Conlan! You jump and writhe loik a 4lb Brown trout dancing atop of me mill pond with my fly in its mouth.

So Patty Cake what to do? Do we put it all in the blender and hope for something edible?Or do we just play to the pretty girls wanting to make love sittin in the first three rows?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:08:46 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: With Teeth!!!! Uh uh - I'll pull them first
Message:
The cultweasel said: ''Ahhh you be a lotta fun ole Pat Conlan! You jump and writhe loik a 4lb Brown trout dancing atop of me mill pond with my fly in its mouth.''

You flatter yourself, Victoria dahling. I would never put your fly in my mouth but you can suck my cock if you want but first I will have to pull your teeth because I know you are a sado-masochist just like your master and are just dying to be slapped around for biting your lover's dick. Not my scene- S&M - too feudalistic and primitve for my tastes. The idea of having or being a master gives me the willies, love. Too paleolithic.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:56:49 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: With Teeth!!!! Uh uh - I'll pull them first
Message:
Pat;this seems to bring out the best in you!I think you could be stretching something here.Now Pat if you wont take the fly why not just swim off into the sunset. It's a big pond.
Whilst you continually circle the bait , the fisherperson will keep casting. Me? I'm a nature freak. I just watch the show.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 08:35:55 (EDT)
From: JOhnT
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Did you sue?
Message:
The charm school, Cat, the charm school.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:05:15 (EDT)
From: Ex-Tex
Email: None
To: Kitty
Subject: Re: The Hydra-headed Monster
Message:
My lovely dear friends.....
To paraphrase Gandhi
'An eye for an eye will eventually leave the world totally BLIND!'

Chickens have come home to roost. This did not come out of a vacuum... know history.... it is ugly and sad. I fear for the future of all. Are we reeling way out of control? Where will it end? Is this really the 1930's again????
Please tell me NO.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:45:33 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Kitty
Subject: Dear Kitty...
Message:
Well, you sly cat you.

You had me going there for a second.

How are you Pat? I'm miserable. I'm scared. I hate war, I just want my hubby to come home and make love.

I've become completely intolerant of the likes of which you describe, the premies who so blantanly show their cultist thinking.

Take care of yourself, sweetheart, I got a feeling we are in for it for the long haul.

Much love to you, Charles, Andy and all the four-leggeds,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:29:57 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Dear Kitty...
Message:
Cheer up. He'll soon be home for some nice wet smooches and sloppy yabyum.

And we'll soon have a nice benign police state. We'll all be fine. Only criminals will need to fear. It'll be like pre-WW11 Berlin where anything goes except for social predators.

However we must outlaw the death penalty before that happens because the Black Shirts may replace the Brown Shirts. This will be my coming campaign - to outlaw the death penalty. No state should have that power.

The attack was planned on the net according to the FBI and they are post-morteming it to see how to be onto it the next time. There will be net police and marshalls on public transportation and lots of cops in the streets. No more rapes or muggings etc.

Sounds fine as long as we follow the spirit of Plato rather than Hitler.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:52:41 (EDT)
From: Pussyweasel
Email: None
To: Kitty
Subject: Conspiracy theories
Message:
You're paranoid Mr Conlon as usual. Go meditate. Your brain will explode. It's always about you isn't it?

PatC channeling a cacweasel.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:56:54 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pussyweasel
Subject: I wuz gonna say the same thing...
Message:
You may be a brilliant writer Pat, but I've gotten exactly the same wash about you, over the months. It's all about ME ME ME, my perspective on everything, my pain, my hard but triumphant life, my take on this, my take on that, my restaurant, my customers, my dear friends on the forum and on and on. It's ok, we've all been there too and it doesn't mean your'e not a great person.

However, every time I've befriended you. I've no sooner turned around and there you are on F7 backstabbing me again.
So I've given up.

Oh and please don't rib us endlessly about the CAC thing.
Have you any idea how much work Cat and I put into that?
Unpaid work it was too! Mind you, we almost developed hernias from the laughing.

SC (channelling Marolyn Cerise Godhard who has much more love than hiss)

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:49:34 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: what you posted on LG
Message:
I have come to the conclusion that life is a whole lot simpler when one removes the awful glasses of fear and cynicism which leads us to judge others as something that threatens us. If New Age self appointed prophets continue to see the devil in their own kind, their own herd, what will they make of a real enemy whose actions are most clearly and definitely to Kick Our Butts?

What a hipocrat!

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:22:04 (EDT)
From: SILVIA
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: FA, please BLOCK SC
Message:
SC,

I have watched your behavior' and read carefully your words. You are a tru;y pathetic person/cult member and you have no business talking to people. You lack common sense. You are as said a sadist person. One who think to be at top of all and face it baby, yes, baby, you are far from that.

You belong to a world of fantasy by the courtesy of your master, you dog. I dislike you totaly: You are hurtful and enjoy doing it.

You got trapped in the world of K. What a joke! You, pathetic being. Superior/better my fucking ass. Better is being more human and lng a go maharaji began to transform people in something very weird: You are proof.

I VOTE TO BLOCK THIS NONSENSE PERSON.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:36:50 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: I wuz gonna say the same thing...
Message:
Well, obviously you were going to say the exact same thing. After all I was channeling you.

Okay, my humble apologies for always talking about me me me. Let's hear all about you you you. And I'm serious. As egotistical as I am, I am also just as interested in others as I am in myself.

I am willing to love others just as much as I love myself and give them the same attention and care as I do for myself. And no one can accuse me of not loving myself. I absolutely adore myself. I am my best friend and the person I know best.

If I love you like I love myself (as the good book says we should) then you will know that you are probably loved by me more than you love yourself.

So please tell me all about yourself. And I AM serious. I really do enjoy people - real people who aren't afraid to be honest and true. In fact there are very few people whom I dislike or do not eventually begin to love.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:09:06 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: LEAVE PAT ALONE, You...
Message:
FUCKING foot kisser!

Go and worship your urug, and ask him personally if you can get his attention or get within a mile of him especially under today's circumstances.

Go back to Lifes a Ball, or Livings Great, or Frisbees are fun, leave my friend alone.

You heartless asshole!

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:11:50 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Yeah, SC, I mean it!
Message:
Ignorant motherfucking interloping, agent provacateur, fucking stick up your ass, hateful pissant.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:28:28 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: you mean nothing Cynthia
Message:
but an empty cry in the wilderness
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 03:42:54 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: It's cold, cruel words like that, David
Message:
..........that make me dislike you. Also the fact that you are not a brave man. Cowardly in fact.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 09:56:05 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: And Cynthia's words?
Message:
Ah yes, very inspiring aren't they.

They make a reader really warm to her right?

Hey, it's a fucked up world and she's an out of control emotional basket case throwing caca in other people's faces.

Not mine buddy...

Now the club has joined in the vomit fray. So what's new?
Next month there'll be another target.

Believe me Pat it takes a very stupid, I mean err, very brave man to post the stuff on this forum that I do.
Some people realise why I do it. It's enough.

But when one posts a sincere message supporting someone's point of view, and they spit it in your face, well, you realise how sick they really are. They get it right back. I saw bjorn go through exactly the same thing. He experienced the horror hate gauntlet from sime of the most rabid, revolting people on the internet and tried to justify his way out of it, poor sod.

I see a sick fuck. I call a sick fuck.

Don't try and deny that they aren't here because everyone knows they are. You also know who they are, but are too gutless to say so. That's cowardice, to deliberately deny your own perceptions just so you can keep the fake cameraderi going.

If certain parties could drop their emotional hysteria for 2 seconds. They'd see that nothing could be less cold, cruel or cowardly than to say, 'HEY....

WAKE THE FUCK UP!

Nothing to do with being a pwk or not. There's a much deeper psychosis at work. And it needs addressing.

I'm off to see Wall St opening. I may be some time.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:36:10 (EDT)
From: complete contempt
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: And Cynthia's words?
Message:
With people like you in the world SC, the chances of levelling humanity up instead of down are I would say IMHO are zero!
Why don't you remember your own master's words
'WHEN YOU POINT A FINGER, THREE ARE POINTING BACK AT YOU.' Your venom is telling us a great deal about you, stupid fool.
Remember this and go look in a mirror, creep.
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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:34:35 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: You are so enlightened...
Message:
SC, why are you here?

To insult? To jab? To validate your cultist thoughts?

You can't hurt me with your words, SC, I'm way beyond that.

Don't forget, I used to follow Maharaji, I was close to him too.

I know him. And I was an ashram premie. You don't know shit.

An empty cry in the wilderness? From you, that's a compliment.

Thank you.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:39:43 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: SC you are cruel and sadistic [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:00:55 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Make up your mind girl!
Message:
Cynthia, I posted a message to you yesterday under you post called 'THIS THREAD IS TERRIBLE'. You spoke about women and society.

My response to it was an honest, no bullshit, heartfelt support of you position re feminism and women 's treatment in society. Anyone with any degree of intelligence (please look) will see that it in NO WAY smells of cynicism, game playing or an attempt to mock your position.

If you had read and responded without that lovely Selene's help, maybe you would have been sincere about it and respected that some things GO BEYOND boundaries. No matter what your stance on other matters, I happen to agree with you that women have been given a bunch of crap for WAY TOO LONG on this planet.

And you and your sick twisted friends spin my post into some kind of evil mindwarp to be mocked and rejected.

No wonder you say are 'broken'.

You sure got that right.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:28:15 (EDT)
From: Miss PWK
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Nyah, nyah, nyah - PatC has posted
Message:
.........two hundred posts in the first three threads, SC! Isn't that terrible? He types and reads so fast. I'm just green with envy! ;)
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:15:32 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: you are a fake and a phony
Message:
Cynthia is not stupid.
Neither was Jim or MOST of the others you have tried to ooze up to.
It's quite transparent how you twist and use posts on here, and only to try to hurt. You should have stuck with quoting others.
fuck off 'Super Creep'
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:09:24 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Super Creep !!
Message:
Heh!

Just gotta love ya, Selene. You are the one and only Super Bee! May the sun long shine on you!

xJT

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 10:58:44 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Super Creep
Message:
Hi John
I hope things are ok for you during this time. I'm gong to try to get some work done today.

I've been suprised this creep hasn't been booted out of here yet, just because he/she/it can write more than 3 words like some other trolls doesn't make the words themselves better. Worse really.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 12:14:58 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: Super Creep
Message:
Thanks for that,

I'm gutted (of course), tearful and very concerned. I feel about America like the Duke of Wellington felt about his troops ...

'I don't know what they do for the enemy' he (allegedly) said 'but they terrify me.'

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 00:59:05 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: SC, You are a sadistic follower...
Message:
of a sadistic master. Play your games, I am immune.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 05:00:06 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: No cynthia - sado-masochistic
Message:
If you study the psychology of S&M you will find that all sadists are masochists and vice versa. Anyone who is bedazzled by love as power is usually both. Masters are usually the most masochistic and often suffer from martyrdom complexes and feel that their servants are not humble enough.

Servants/slaves often tend towards being sadists and enjoy watching their masters squirming to ""win"" the sex/love/power game. It really is complex and appeals to people who do not trust that others really love them.

Who needs masters or slaves? Too atavistic! Too childish. Only requited love between equals is not fraught with sado-masochism. Gurujism is spiritual sado-masochism.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 19:58:10 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: what is happening in Pakistan.
Message:
Looks like the Pakistanies are taking this very seriously. Here is a portal with the latest Pakistani News

Pakistan news headlines

This is the address in case link does not work

http://www.moreover.com/cgi-local/page?o=portal&c=Pakistan%20news

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:22:24 (EDT)
From: ****
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam
Message:
Hi Salam, my name is Djerko. I drool and fart loudly in public and when people look at me strangly I give them satsang and tell them about my master, Goober.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 07:48:03 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Pakistani president now to visit CHINA for talks!
Message:
Musharraf to visit China for terrorism talks

Link:
http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=7&id=78210

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:38:51 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: what is happening in Pakistan.
Message:
Hey, Salam, how accurate is this DEBKA? This report that suchabanana posted I find very disturbing if it's true.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 04:06:54 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: what is happening in Pakistan.
Message:
Yep. DEBKA is an Israeli Intelligence Agency, has contact. I don't normally shit my pants too easily, but those guys give me diarrhea.

I will put my ear to the ground if I was in America, brrrrrrrrrrr.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:22:19 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: military update
Message:
9/17/01

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/

http://www.debka.com/

Israelis reveal US troops movement
By Nusrat Javeed
ISLAMABAD: DEBKA, an Israel-based news and intelligence analysis portal, claimed Sunday that the 82nd and 101st airborne US divisions, which comprise nearly half of the airborne combat forces at the immediate disposal of US President George W Bush, are already 'being airlifted to bases in Pakistan.'
The bulk of these forces, DEBKA went on to claim, 'will be moved to the northern Punjab region of Pakistan and take up position near the city of Dera Ismail Khan and in the valleys at the foot of the Suleiman mountain range.' That will position the US forces right 'across from their main target - the Afghan city of Kandahar (the spiritual capital of Taliban).'
The News has already reported that some Islamabad-based diplomats keenly noticed the mobility of an oil tanker to Moron air base in the south of Spain of late. KC-10 tanker aircraft, which can do the refueling of planes in the air, are also stationed on this base. Furnishing of the fresh oil supplies to this base made the diplomats believe that with the word go, 'troops of 82nd airborne division, stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina and the Kentucky based 101st would begin flying off to the assigned destinations.'
DEBKA is convinced that the United States is fast heading for a war 'to avenge itself for the catastrophic hijack-suicide attacks against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.' The first stage of the conflict, according to initial estimates made by DEBKA experts, 'could last two to three years.' The success of which 'will determine the scope and timeframe of the second phase.'
It's not Kandahar only which is projected as the target of expected US assault on Afghanistan by DEBKA. 'The United States also intends to lay siege to, or capture, the Afghan cities of Medan, Galdek and Maroof as well as the Arghastan Valley, where, according to intelligence provided by Russia, India and Israel, Osama bin Laden's forces have been concentrated in recent months,' it adds.
The US operations, the news portal predicted, 'will include air bombardments and missile strikes against Afghanistan's principal cities: Kabul, Jalalabad and Kandahar.' DEBKA also claims that 'Afghanistan is not the only target.' 'Washington is also planning a three-stage offensive against Iraq with the participation of US, British and Turkish forces.'

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 20:03:14 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: what is happening in Pakistan.
Message:
also, see

Top Stories

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 21:47:33 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: [Blank]
Subject: Behind the news. Scary shit.
Message:
DEBKA

Am shitting my pants reading this.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:05:34 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: Behind the news. Scary shit.
Message:
A snippet from that DEBKApage:

Mohamed Atta and his cousin Marwan Ashehri, two of the 19 hijackers named by the US Justice Department, as perpetrators of the New York
World Trade Center and Pentagon, Washington suicide attacks, have been
variously described as Egyptian and Saudi nationals.

DEBKAfile's intelligence sources have turned up their real identity: they were Palestinian-Americans. Atta was implicated in a series of bus bombings that hit Jerusalem in 1996. He evaded Israeli capture by going to ground among his relatives in America. The US authorities at the time turned down Israel's request to extradite this US national.
Our sources further identify Atta as the scion of a prominent, affluent family in El-Bireh, Ramallah, one of whose members is a former mayor and most of whom carry American citizenship, as do many elite Palestinian families in Ramallah and its environs.

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 23:17:35 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam...
Message:
I am shittin my pants, too.

I think that the only thing we can do now is love those we love, watch and wait.

This is overwhelming. I hope you are safe and well,

Love,
cynthia

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Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001 at 22:30:09 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Yes that is scary shit
Message:
I think I better go home. Too much to read here for one time.

Everyone take care,

Deborah

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