Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 16, 2001 To: Sep 19, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


swami j. suchabanana copyright 2001 -:- Top 10 Reasons Why Ossama Turned Out da Way He Did -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:12:43 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- none of the above -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:46:56 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: none of the above -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:01:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Sufi proverb -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:15:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Huh?? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:23:48 (EDT)
__ No name -:- !0 reasons -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:10:13 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: !0 reasons -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:58:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- ***BEST OF FORUM*** -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:35:24 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- No name,huh? 2 bad 4U [Practice of Name vgood] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:04:46 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Is all in reverse, you silly -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:35:39 (EDT)
__ __ Reason # 10 -:- His face is VERY ugly-nt -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 07:35:44 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- Iran fires missiles at Iraq terrorist base -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:51:59 (EDT)
__ such -:- Counter-terrorism:Big Brother here and now? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 03:47:42 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Big Brother -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:08:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- survival of what,though? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:18:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: survival of what,though? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:16:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- Re: 'survival' - at what price for security? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:01:02 (EDT)
__ such -:- wider Asian concerns -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:21:15 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- more dance of maya: Turkey in the straw -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:15:20 (EDT)
__ such -:- role of Saddam; White House mole? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:59:27 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- biological weapons -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:28:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- The Assyrian Strategy -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:41:55 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: role of Saddam; White House mole? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:25:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- bin Laden escape tunnels funded by CIA -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:43:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: bin Laden escape tunnels funded by CIA -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:57:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- some stabilizing;multi-faceted approach unfolds [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:47:34 (EDT)
__ such -:- Re: Saudis arrest bin Laden supporters -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:54:58 (EDT)

Salam -:- TheTragedy could have been prevented -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:55:21 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- But how? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:58:50 (EDT)
__ __ Salam -:- Re: But how? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:33:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: But how? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:42:59 (EDT)

Richard -:- Candle Light Vigil -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:19:37 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Thank you, very beautiful [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:07:42 (EDT)

Timmi -:- .....according to Maharaji....and I quote -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:17:23 (EDT)
__ Deobrah -:- Re: .....according to Maharaji....and I quote -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:01:10 (EDT)

Joe -:- Erika Andersen is fond of 'Accuracy' -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:15:37 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- One Addition for Erika Andersen -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:19:39 (EDT)
__ A Friend -:- Re: Erika Andersen is fond of 'Accuracy' -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 10:39:49 (EDT)
__ wolfie -:- succesfull premies defending their beliefsytem -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:13:51 (EDT)
__ Suedoula -:- Re: Erika Andersen's web site -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:04:22 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- You hit the nail on the head, Sue -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:23:13 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Well Said Susan -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:27:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Well Said Joe -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:30:48 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- You are VERY eloquent Suedoula -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:20:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Suedoula -:- Re: You are VERY eloquent Suedoula -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:35:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Suedoula -:- Oh is my face red!!!!!! -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:43:45 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- OF COURSE THEY BELIEVE IT -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:42:35 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- Erika needs an enema NT -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:16:02 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Erika Andersen is a joke -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:16:15 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- No, she isn't a joke... -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:06:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- That is IT! -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:13:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- Erika.. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:17:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Well said, Ulf -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:41:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: Well said, Ulf -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:42:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- I agree Ulf, well said -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:28:36 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Erika Andersen is fond of 'Accuracy' -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:27:10 (EDT)
__ __ [Blank] -:- never mind, found it..nt -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:52:59 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- *****BEST OF***** -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:00:02 (EDT)
__ __ RichMandrake -:- What Joe says Is True.... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:59:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Holy Heck, another -:- *****Best OF***** -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:31:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Rich -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:09:26 (EDT)

JHB -:- Bush does something good! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:20:16 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- What Bush is and what he isn't -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:38:20 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Good Morning, Crusaders! -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 04:45:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Good Morning, Crusaders! -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:17:55 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: What Bush is and what he isn't -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:51:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: What Bush is and what he isn't -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:30:13 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- Er, did he mention non-Americans..? [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:35:29 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- I think he did. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:23:19 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- This must be repeated -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:44:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Re: This must be repeated -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:09:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ WMary -:- Re: This must be repeated -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:03:02 (EDT)

Pauline Premie -:- My Submission -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:11:22 (EDT)
__ salam -:- What web site? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:34:15 (EDT)
__ __ Selene -:- keep going Salam -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:53:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Re: keep going Salam -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:17:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- try to figure out my AG too post -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:42:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Re: try to figure out my AG too post -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:59:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- to other S and S's -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:04:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- S's ot -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:12:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Hello Silvia ... -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:46:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Hello Stonor -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:03:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks Silvia. (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:16:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Hi Siliva - why isn't SC blocked -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 10:56:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- LOL!!! :) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:15:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: LOL!!! :) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:29:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you can play with it -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:51:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: LOL!!! :) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:25:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Which part? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:33:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Which part? -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:37:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- emails are bouncing again ... -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:00:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Hey S and S! Is this about me?! ;) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:51:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: Hey S and S! Is this about me?! ;) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:06:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- At least ... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:17:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Re: At least ... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:31:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Not even a friendly butt/ramming?!!!! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:37:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: keep going Salam -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:57:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- the title's great -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:05:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: the title's great -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:37:55 (EDT)

Marianne -:- San Francisco Memorial Services -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:05:45 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Mark Bingham's partner -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:54:28 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: San Francisco Memorial Services -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:15:23 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- Thanks, Marianne - and something to read for all -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:07:32 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Thanks Marianne -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:47:41 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- how they decided to do it -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:02:24 (EDT)
__ bill -:- Re: San Francisco Memorial Services -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:14:51 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Sympathies, Bill -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:04:51 (EDT)
__ __ Chris Hafey -:- Re: San Francisco Memorial Services -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:41:48 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: San Francisco Memorial Services -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:44:04 (EDT)
__ __ Salam -:- Re: San Francisco Memorial Services -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:42:01 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- God, Bill, sorry to hear that -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:00:20 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Oh geez bill! -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:07:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill-thanks all, -:- close or far, we are all affected big time. [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:39:33 (EDT)

Zelda -:- 1 Astologer said 11 + 24 Sept = trouble -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:46:04 (EDT)
__ janet -:- yeah you do. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:10:02 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: 1 Astologer said 11 + 24 Sept = trouble -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:31:59 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: 1 Astologer said 11 + 24 Sept = trouble -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:45:53 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- LOL :) nt -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:18:06 (EDT)
__ __ George Carlin -:- Re: 1 Astologer said 11 + 24 Sept = trouble -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:37:33 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- I HATE predictive astrology (Hi Zelda) [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:09:12 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Cute, Zelda -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:00:44 (EDT)
__ bill-christ zelda, -:- There is trouble in my life EVERYDAY [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:00:27 (EDT)
__ __ Zelda -:- oops. The 'other' kind . NT -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:50:51 (EDT)

Extra! Extra! Read all about it! -:- New cult apologist website -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:06:50 (EDT)
__ Brian Smith -:- This is a fine way to get good seats at the events (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:08:21 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- LOL - you said it all, Brian -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:52:25 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Wasting my time? I hope not. -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:24:29 (EDT)
__ suedoula -:- Re: New cult apologist website -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:15:18 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Experiences differed -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:49:57 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Thanks -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:05:48 (EDT)
__ mercedes -:- sick -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:34:40 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Typical fluff, not even worth reading -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:18:29 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Same silly nonsense -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:42:22 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- well it convinced me... -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:31:18 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Typical fluff, not even worth reading -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:28:46 (EDT)
__ Oopsy daisy -:- Here's the link [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:09:38 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: Here's the link -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:00:32 (EDT)
__ __ Suzanne -:- How embarrassing -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:05:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Very Funny Post }) -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:52:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: How embarrassing -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:25:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I thought so too, Timmi -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:33:52 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- It's fucking HILARIOUS -:- Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:59:03 (EDT)


Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:12:43 (EDT)
From: swami j. suchabanana copyright 2001
Email: dalilswami@Letterman.com
To: All
Subject: Top 10 Reasons Why Ossama Turned Out da Way He Did
Message:
Top 10 Reasons Why Ossama bin Laden Turned Out da Way He Did:

10 because, as a child, he only had toy soldiers and guns to play with

9 because he never learned how to shave or about personal hygiene

8 because chicks thought he was a skinny wimp

7 because HE wasn't born king of Saudi Arabia

6 after the Afghan war, he didn't have a backup career

5 because he never had violin lessons

4 because his parents never hugged him

3 because he's got three wives telling him that they 'have a headache.'

2 because Mister Rogers wasn't available on his satellite dish.

1 ***** because as the 32nd of 54 children, Dad couldn't remember his name.
[ bananabucks.com ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:46:56 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: swami j. suchabanana copyright 2001
Subject: none of the above
Message:
What seems to have driven Mr bin Laden to excess is the Saudi's use of American forces to fight the Iraqi invaders of Kuwait.

Remember that Mr bin Laden had proved himself by driving the Soviets out of Afghanistan. He had returned to Saudi Arabia (using that term is a bit like talking about 'Bush America' -- arguably accurate, but all the same hugely insulting to ordinary people there) when the Iraqis moved into Kuwait. He put forward his plan to use mujahideen to retake Kuwait. It would have meant that the arabic speaking nations themselves sorted the problem; and it would have given a boost to the mujahideen generally.

However, the Saudi family were evidently rather fearful of this course of action, and instead chose to invite American troops into their country so that Kuwait could be attacked. In arab and Islamic culture Saudi Arabia is a holy land (though not as holy as Palestine) and to invite non-believers into the holy land was, frankly, extraordinary.

To someone like bin Laden this preference for (non-believer) was more than extraordinary. It was obscene and barely comprehensible. The ruling Saudi family had combined personal rejection with national and religious treachery.

And so it was that Ussama bin Laden returned to Afghanistan to take up the battle against the foreign usurpers.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:01:11 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: none of the above
Message:
Or so he says. The fact is that he's a cult leader seeking to extend his flock, and perhaps promoting the larger idea of a Moslem Empire, so the Saudis were right to have trepidation. And if we were to pull out of Arabia do you suppose it would placate him any more than similar appeasement placated Hitler? You have 'cause' mixed up with 'excuse.'
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:15:41 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Sufi proverb
Message:
who am I to dispute with a fool?
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:23:48 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Huh??
Message:
I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about with your cryptic one-liners. Are you a premie or something? How about a little logic, or is that beneath you? If you think acceding to Bin Laden's demand is, on any level, a wise policy you're just plain full of shit... and a fool.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:10:13 (EDT)
From: No name
Email: None
To: swami j. suchabanana copyright 2001
Subject: !0 reasons
Message:
And 10 Top reasons why you once admired The love, and replaced it with Hate?
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:58:44 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: No name
Subject: Re: !0 reasons
Message:
Okay, I'll bite, but you assume that we have all replaced love with hate. Assumptions are rarely accurate, and I do not hate M or k. I'm heartbroken and disappointed, does that count? And before you assume it's been years since I was around M, k or pwk's and/or instructors, think again. I attended an event Sunday. I did not feel hate for anyone in that room, including the vcr. I felt empathy, sympathy, amazement and COMPASSION, for those that might come in contact with the facts about M and his world, because if they honestly look with an unbiased, open, functioning brain, their world is going to come crashing down, breaking their heart in the process.

10-Being referred to as a 'loser' because I'm not a big cash donor, just a piddly 25 year plus donor.

9-Being hounded to join the ashram or being figuratively spit upon by the premie powers and M.

8-Being whipped into propagating knowledge, because it is my duty and service, or I am not a good premie. However, in not one intro video does it state that whoever takes this knowledge is obligated to perpetuate a pyramid scheme for the rest of their life, or they will not have the full experience of this experience.

7-Learning the Lord Of the Universe needs cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, and sex via infidelity, to enjoy his life.

6-M presents one face in public and one face in private, yet prachar is supposedly the highest state for a devotee. Tell me again the definition of prachar? Propagation by example?

5-Yelling and screaming and demeaning premies into fearful submission while professing peace and love and telling the story how he admonished a father in a video shop for yelling at his child.

4-Eating meat and not cluing the rest of his world in on the fact other than to announce at Long Beach that some people want him to tell premies not to eat meat, which he did once upon a time, that he wouldn't because he came to the cosmic conclusion that knowledge isn't in the stomach.

3- Presenting himself to be the only one capable of sustaining marriage, making those that got married feel like crap about it, then mock marriage because he decided sex with devotees would somehow enlighten him.

2-Telling us it is our fault for calling him THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE instead of just saying we 'loved him to death' when he said he was lord of the universe, let/made us sing he was lord of the universe and if you think that only happens in Amaroo, well, it happened at Universal Studies program just a month ago.

1. The number one reason you might think people here replace love with hate? He stole hearts, broke them, enslaved them and evidently only wants them for his own needs which have nothing to do with knowledge.

If you see only hate here, then it is from your eyes that you see.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:35:24 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM***
Message:
Thanks btdt. I really enjoy watching you articulate your reasons for leaving the cult. You're good. And you seem to be so emotionally stable. I'm afraid I was extremely angry with the Sadguru for a few months and really must confess that I did hate him at one point. That's just settled down into an absolute distaste for him and a desire to see him apologize and give back the money that us poor ''piddling'' donors gave over the course of 30 years.

Too funny how Erica says that the finances were blurred in the beginning and that they are now separate and no money to EV goes to M but also admits she does not know how he got wealthy. Well, remember the house that we all bought for him in Malibu. Well, he sold it back to the people who gave it to him for 8.5 million dollars. He also received a lot of inheritances and trust funds from people who now regret it. Oh, and I forgot about your jewelry.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:04:46 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: No name
Subject: No name,huh? 2 bad 4U [Practice of Name vgood]
Message:
so-hung so hungg soooo hunggg...

am feeling 'The love' for my Creator - That Love, That Feeling

hate? actually, an intolerance of injustice, feudalism, superstition, ignorance, child/sex abuse, corruption, malfeasance, diversion of funds, cheat and deceit, mental or physical enslavement...

an affirmation of justice, equality, democracy, freedom, wisdom, truth, appropriate official conduct and use of funds, honest communications, fellowship, charity, conscious evolution, using one's heart + head, free and open sharing of any spiritual knowledge/information without strings attached or manipulations.

you missed da boat. bye bye

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:35:39 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: No name
Subject: Is all in reverse, you silly
Message:
It looked and was called 'Love', but it was HATE, and what you call HATE is really LOVE.

LOVE for TRUTH, JUSTICE, SINCERITY, REAL FREEDOM.

MAHARAJI SUCKS!

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 07:35:44 (EDT)
From: Reason # 10
Email: None
To: No name
Subject: His face is VERY ugly-nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:51:59 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Iran fires missiles at Iraq terrorist base
Message:
IRAN LAUNCHES MISSILE ATTACK ON IRAQ
 
NICOSIA [MENL] -- Iran is said to have launched a missile attack against its neighbor Iraq.
The Baghdad-based Mujahadeen Khalq said Iran fired five missiles toward a base of the opposition group in Jaalaula northeast of Baghdad. The base of the Iranian opposition group is near the Iranian border.
The group said the Iranian attack took place on late Thursday. Several Iraqis were reportedly wounded in the missile attack.
The Mujahadeen said the Iranian attackers retreated to their country. The group said the missiles missed the opposition base and struck nearby homes.
Earlier this year, Iran was said to have fired 66 missiles at Mujahadeen bases in Iraq. It was said to have been the biggest attack since the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war.


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Middle East Newsline

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 03:47:42 (EDT)
From: such
Email: such@kingdome.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: Counter-terrorism:Big Brother here and now?
Message:
'New war' to be fought with unprecedented secrecy

September 17, 2001 Posted: 9:53 PM EDT (0153 GMT)
By Jamie McIntyre
CNN Washington
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- America's 'new war' against terrorism will be fought with unprecedented secrecy, including heavy press restrictions not seen for years, Pentagon sources said Monday.
Planning for possible military action has been 'highly compartmentalized' to ensure the fewest number of people possible have access to classified war plans, the sources said.
RESOURCES Bush: 'There's no rules'   Britain gears up to help in war on terrorism    
According to Pentagon officials close to the process, the Bush administration has decided to clamp down on even routine information because it could prove of some use to potential terrorists.
'I want to make it clear to the American people that this administration will not talk about any plans we may or may not have,' President Bush said Monday. 'We will not jeopardize in any way, shape or form, anybody who wears the uniform of the United States.'
In response to the attacks, the U.S. Defense Department has stopped posting on the Internet the general location of U.S. warships. The department's Web pages that show ship location haven't been updated since September 10, the day before hijacked airplanes struck the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
In addition, the Pentagon currently has no plans to allow reporters to deploy with troops, or report from warships, practices routinely carried out in the 1991 Persian Gulf War.
Sources said the Pentagon is drawing up 'high-end' and 'low-end' options for military action.
The 'high-end' options include air strikes against countries that support terrorists, while 'low-end' plans include the use of special forces to capture or kill terrorist leaders, such as Osama bin Laden, sources said.
The actual plans are under close guard and have not been shared with news agencies. The rationale, according to Pentagon officials: Terrorist organizations lack the intelligence-gathering capacity that nations possess, relying instead on news organizations to find out what their enemies are doing.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:08:17 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Big Brother
Message:
The real problem with not having reporters along is that it'll be difficult to keep the public inspired and in support if they have no news. It does make sense to have this sort of news blackout though, especially at the beginning where surprise might make all the difference. And if we're fighting for survival (which I think we are) then the public need to know has to drop to a lower priority.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:18:39 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: survival of what,though?
Message:
re survival: of da species, a way of life, or da existing worldly power structure...? hmmmm...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:16:31 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: survival of what,though?
Message:
re survival: of da species, a way of life, or da existing worldly power structure...? hmmmm...

---

Hey! Survival of our population, here in the U.S.A.
Apparently, people living in the U.S.A. are unwilling to
lose even a few thousand people and some prize real estate.

Hmm. Go figure.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:01:02 (EDT)
From: such
Email: jsuchabanana@freeatlast.com
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: 'survival' - at what price for security?
Message:
Checks and Balances - personal freedoms: The US Bill of Rights

in the rhetoric of on-going jingoism resides the impetus for the potential creation of a massive international secret police state and accompanying sweeping abridgement of individual rights - so, survival of our civil rights is another germane concern, too.

also, human survival around the globe, too. - not just the USA

also, people from 37 countries were killed by the attack on WTC.

indeed, there are many factors involved. the war on terrorism will be especially complicated - in the areas of intelligence, compliance, enforcement - military, financial, political, social, economic.

then, of course, there are the religion-related issues -- which are at the heart of this international crisis [and many other continuous crises]

survival of Americans, the democratic principles and liberties of Western societies, and of innocent Afghani civilians, Palestinians, Pakistanis, Tajiks, Iranians, Iraqis, Lebanese, Kenyans, Sudanese, Tanzanians, Kuwaitis, Chechnyans, Tibetans, Kashmiris, Armenians, Georgians, Latvians, Taiwanese, Indians, N. Irish, Canadians, Brits, Aussies, Algerians, French, Vietnamese, Tutsi, Biafran, Ethiopian, Yemeni, Lakota, Nez Perce, Mohicans, Mestizos, the Amazon jungle people, et al.

Peace and lentils,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:21:15 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: wider Asian concerns
Message:
ISLAMABAD — A growing sense of unease spread through Asia on Monday as troops massed on the Afghan-Pakistan border and regional stock markets plunged on fears of a global recession.
As Pakistani envoys held last-ditch talks with Afghanistan's ruling Taliban to try to avert a U.S. assault, tens of thousands of people streamed out of Afghan cities and headed for the borders with Iran and Pakistan.
Taliban officials were also fleeing the capital Kabul as the White House vowed retaliation by a 'mighty giant' for last week's terror attacks on New York and Washington. Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, sheltered by the Taliban, is the United States' prime suspect.
Indonesian Vice President Hamzah Haz warned hardline Islamic groups on Monday not to enter the country and seek to destabilise the world's largest Muslim nation. Malaysia said it was not a safe haven for terrorists.
U.S. media reports said a man believed to have been among the hijackers who crashed a passenger jet into the Pentagon last week had been videotaped meeting another militant in Malaysia last year.
Perhaps the country with the greatest sense of crisis is Pakistan.
While pledging to help the United States should it decide to strike Afghanistan, Islamic Pakistan faces growing hostility among its own hardline factions. The Taliban have also vowed to attack Pakistan if it does help Washington.
Late on Monday, the Taliban massed troops near the Pakistani border and positioned Scud missiles near the border as well.
Senior Pakistani officials met the reclusive spiritual leader of the Afghan Taliban on Monday to try to persuade him to hand over bin Laden and escape U.S. armed retaliation.
After the two sides held three hours of talks, the Pakistan-based Afghan Islamic Press quoted Taliban spokesman Abdul Hai Mutamaen as saying that they had failed to resolve the key issue of turning over the multimillionaire Islamic militant.
'The meeting looked in detail at the aspects of the problem. The talks were positive but I cannot give the details,' Mutamaen said. 'We are 60% hopeful that conditions will be normal.'
But on bin Laden, who the Taliban have termed a 'guest,' Mutamaen reported no progress. 'There was no clear discussion on this particular topic,' he said.
The ex-head of Pakistani military intelligence said Pakistan could erupt in popular protest, and India could be destabilised, if Islamabad lets U.S. troops in to attack Afghanistan.
'The price to pay would be high for everybody,' General Hameed Gul said of any retaliatory attack from Pakistani soil. 'Pakistan would be completely destabilised and that would have grave repercussions, especially for the United States,' he was quoted as saying in the French newspaper Le Figaro on Monday.
Neighboring India said on Monday its troops had heightened vigilance along the Pakistan border after reports Islamabad had closed militant training camps.
An Indian army spokesman said there were fears that if Pakistan did crack down on guerrilla training camps, militants could be flushed into Indian-controlled Kashmir.
The Philippines, wary of extremist attacks, said it had placed its military and police on alert and was ready to 'pay the price' of backing a U.S.-led anti-terror campaign.
Manila has long fought Muslim extremists in the country's south and a captured Philippine Muslim rebel leader has named bin Laden as a financier of his group, the military said on Monday.
But several other Southeast Asian nations urged the United States to investigate thoroughly before ordering retaliation for last week's terror attacks, Thai Foreign Minister Surakiart Sathirathai said on Monday.
'Every country, including all in ASEAN (the Association of South East Asian Nations), would like to see the United States obtain clear-cut evidence and a thorough investigation before starting its operations,' Surakiart told reporters.
U.S. military bases in Japan buzzed with activity on Monday as forces there prepared to play their part in any retaliation.
There were signs that preparations in Japan, home to about 48,000 U.S. military personnel, were intensifying with fighter planes conducting drills. A warship equipped with an Aegis missile defence system was seen leaving the huge U.S. naval base in Yokosuka, south of Tokyo.
Japanese police were also busy investigating reports that bin Laden followers may have entered Japan earlier this month, domestic media said.
With no end to the gloom, investors sold off shares across the region fearing a worldwide slump and a plunge in share prices when Wall Street reopens on Monday for the first time since last Tuesday's attacks.
Japan, Asia's biggest market, saw its benchmark Nikkei average ending down 5.04% at 9,504, its lowest since December 1983, while Hong Kong's Hang Seng Index fell 3.48% at 9,319.
In a measure of the crisis, the U.S. cut interest rates a little more than an hour before trading on Wall Street began, a move which might bring some relief to Asian investors. (Reuters News)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:15:20 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: more dance of maya: Turkey in the straw
Message:
Prime minister says there is no demand for
use of bases in Turkey

Ecevit fears nuclear war threat

A nuclear war will be a catastrophe for all humanity, Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit said when asked whether he was concerned that military action against terrorists involved in last Tuesday's attacks in New York and Washington could lead to a nuclear conflict.
'God spare the whole world from a nuclear war, since a nuclear war will be a catastrophe for humanity. I don't think that anybody is planning something like this. Of course, sick persons might appear and reach the secrets,' Ecevit told reporters, stating that people should be aware of such threats.
The prime minister made the statement prior to his departure for Istanbul, where he was scheduled to meet with Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar.
Responding to a question on whether Turkey's National Intelligence Organization (MIT) had warned the United States that Osama bin Laden had chemical weapons in his possession, the prime minister said he did not know such details.
'However, MIT has a close relationship with the CIA. Not only with the CIA, but also with many countries, MIT has useful contacts. But, we don't have the details of these contacts,' Ecevit said.
The Turkish press reported on the weekend that Senkal Atasagun, the undersecretary of MIT, had contacts with his counterparts in countries closely allied to Turkey in the region.

'No demand from Turkey'

When asked whether the United States had raised any demands from Turkey, Ecevit said no concrete demands were made to date by the United States regarding the use of Malatya and Diyarbakir bases in southeastern Turkey.
The prime minister refused to elaborate on the reported U.S. demand concerning the use of bases, stating that he would not comment on assumptions.
The reports, claiming that the United States had requested the use of bases in Malatya and Diyarbakir, were also denied by Huseyin Dirioz, the spokesman of the Foreign Ministry.
Asked by the Turkish Daily News about the reports that the bases will be open for U.S. military operations, Dirioz said he did not have any information on such a development.

Ecevit concerned about attacks against Muslims

The prime minister declared concern for the escalation of tensions in the United States, which targeted the Muslim community in the country.
'It is harmful to provoke such divisions as the world gets closer to unification. Of course, now there are people, who are sensitive and nervous, the acts of whom can result in troublesome consequences. But I expect that the U.S. administration and particularly President George W. Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair will react against such movements,' Ecevit said.

Powell calls Cem

U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell praised the Turkish support for the struggle launched against terrorism. During a telephone conversation with Foreign Minister Ismail Cem late on Saturday, the U.S. Secretary of State thanked Turkey for its support in the fight against terrorism.

Turkish citizens in the US

After the terrorist attacks in the United States, most Turkish citizens living in that country were contacted, the Foreign Ministry disclosed.
The number of Turkish citizens who were contacted stood at 326, while the total enquiries about missing Turks stood at 457, according to information from the Foreign Ministry.

Afghan Ambassador in Ankara: 'Our people are not terrorists'

Elmurad Argun, the Ambassador of Afghanistan in Ankara stated that bin Laden was behind the attacks and claimed that Pakistan was behind bin Laden.
Holding a press conference in the embassy, Argun expressed the condolences of the Afghans to the U.S. people.
'The Afghan people are not terrorists. What is the crime of our people? Taliban means Pakistan and Pakistan means Taliban,' said the ambassador, stating that bin Laden was not an Afghan citizen and had the support of Pakistan behind him.
Argun told reporters that bin Laden provided billions in money and weapons. He also charged that Afghanistan had become the center of international terrorism.
For years, Afghanistan has been represented in Ankara by the Uzbeks.

Ankara-Turkish Daily News


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A senior EU diplomat in Ankara says the unprecedented terrorist attack against the United States would definitely force the EU to redesign its anti-terror policy, which will limit the hospitality given to foreign dissidents in European countries

Terrorist attack against US to prompt EU to revise its anti-terror policy

* The way the European Union treats Turkish terrorist organizations, such as the DHKP-C as well as the PKK, will be less tolerated, says the same diplomat, drawing attention also to the possible serious effects of the terrorist attack against the United States to Turkey's already fragile economy


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Lale Sariibrahimoglu

The terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre in New York City and the Pentagon outside Washington on Sept. 11, which prompted the United States to prepare retaliatory action at various points in the world has also brought to the forefront a debate over an effective fight against acts of international terrorism and terrorists. For the first time in its history NATO decided to activate Article 5 of the alliance in the wake of the unprecedented terrorist attacks staged against U.S. interests.
Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit, in his first reaction to the terrorist attacks on Sept. 12, expressed his desire that some of Turkey's allies, that is the European allies, change the way they treat terrorists such as the Revolutionary People's Liberation Party/Front (DHKP/C) who were responsible for the suicide bombing on Sept. 10 September in Istanbul as well as Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) activists in European countries.
The radical leftist DHKP/C has re-emerged in the past two years as another Turkish internal threat.
Many analysts agree that when activating Article 5, under which an attack to an alliance member will be regarded as an attack staged against all members, becomes a reality, the European allies will think twice about trying to get the United States to prove that the enemy is the one that the United States is currently pointing at, that is Saudi dissident terrorist Osama bin Laden residing in Afghanistan as a prime suspect.
The same European allies -- members of the European Union -- are expected to definitely change their anti-terrorism policy, which is based, in the words of a senior EU diplomat, on the tolerance of dissidents residing in many European countries escaping mainly from their undemocratic countries.
A senior EU diplomat in Ankara, speaking to the Turkish Daily News, said that one element of the terrorist attack against the United States should teach them to begin to learn why it's world is different from the rest of the world. The European countries went through enormous damage during the past wars. Thus, unlike the United States, the European vision is not based on using force immediately against others and also differs on addressing the problems of security.
The other element, as outlined by the same EU diplomat in Ankara, is that the terrorist attack against the United States will definitely force the EU to redesign its anti-terrorism policy to limit the hospitality given to foreign dissidents.
'It cannot be ruled out that such a change in the EU's anti terror policy will have an impact on Turkey's terror organizations such as the DHKP-C or the PKK as well as some extreme radical Islamist groups,' said another EU diplomat.
It is a known fact that most of the rich countries of the world are full of political refugees, some of them being prominent figures such as the Chinese and the Ukrainians.
There is also a kind of tolerance in European countries, even to those who are not very peaceful political dissidents, because they come from undemocratic countries.
'If you are coming from an undemocratic regime the EU does not check the credentials of those nasty dissidents. Some in Europe also think that Turkish refugees are accepted because Turkey is not democratic,' said an EU diplomat.

'This may change now'

Agreeing with Ecevit's statement that Turkey's European allies may learn their lessons from the latest terrorist attack against the United States and refrain from tolerating terrorist organizations, the senior EU diplomat said eyes in Europe may not be closed now to those refugees making demonstrations peacefully and who obey the laws of the countries that they are living in.
European countries are also tolerant of those coming from other European countries. For example, the Irish Republican Army (IRA) that Britain has been seeking reconciliation with, has an office in France. Thus European countries being rather protective of human rights may also be tolerant of organizations like the IRA and not only to the PKK or the DHKP-C, said one EU diplomat.
Europe may now scrutinize the EU anti-terrorism policy realizing that a clean political refugee in, for example, Britain might turn into a potential terrorist in another country, said the same diplomat.

Danger of anti-Islamic racism

As the attackers against U.S. interests have been identified as Muslim, and added to that the already existing perception in Europe and in the United States that the main terrorist acts are linked with Islam, this paints a grim picture in the West of the Muslim faith.
Thus any visa emigration to be made by Muslim dissidents is set to become more difficult and the EU may start seeing a new form of racism, which will be anti-Islamic racism, warned EU diplomats.
The senior EU diplomat stressed that a firm response should come from moderate Muslims against the terrorist attacks.
The Islamic agenda has been set for years by Islamic extremists and this has succeeded because those Islamic countries were not democratic enough to allow democratic debate for reconciliation, said a senior EU diplomat.
The main question that Turkey should address now is how to preserve security through democracy, as many analysts fear that the terrorist attack against the United States could trigger a more security-first policy to dominate Turkish policy considerations.
The EU diplomats recalled that Turkey has terrorists but measures taken by the state are counterproductive if they do not prevent but breed the terrorists. One EU diplomat argued that Turkey's repentance law was not reconciliation but rather reconciliation with PKK informers.
The senior EU diplomat also warned of the repercussions of the terrorist attack on the United States which could threaten the already fragile Turkish economy due to the general recession that has already emerged in the world.
The United States is faced with billions of dollars of damage as a result of last Tuesday's terrorist bombing.
Loglu@superonline.com
Ankara - Turkish Daily News


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U.S. Ambassador to Yerevan Lemmon:
Instead of complaining about the darkness, light a candle

Unofficial dialogue between Turkey and Armenia creates excitement among U.S. officials


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SAADET ORUC

The recent unofficial chain of meetings between Turkey and Armenia are an important process and are being encouraged by the United States, said American Ambassador to Armenia Michael Lemmon, who has been playing a key role in the formation of business ties between Yerevan and Ankara.
Lemmon, who has taken Armenian businessmen to Istanbul many times, spoke to Turkish journalists visiting Armenia between Sept. 7-11 for the Turkish-Armenian-Azerbaijani Journalists Meeting, entitled 'The Role of the Media in Overcoming Regional Conflicts and Eliminating the Enemy Image.'
Asked whether he defined his role between Turkey and Armenia as a key one, Ambassador Lemmon kept silent.
'Silence means confirmation,' said a Turkish journalist, drawing attention to the silence of the American ambassador after the question.
And Lemmon expressed a very well known phrase to define his role: 'Instead of complaining about the darkness, light a candle!'
Speaking at the Paris Consultative Group Meeting in July, Lemmon defined the formation of the Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Committee as an important step towards the normalization of relations between Turkey and Armenia, which he commented to be a bold, courageous and needed effort.
Spending three years as U.S. Ambassador to Armenia, Lemmon has witnessed the most critical developments in the region.
And with the experience of the last three years, Lemmon told Turkish journalists, including the Turkish Daily News, that nothing should be off the table for the unofficial gatherings between Turkey and Armenia.
The thing that was really important was a positive debate and dialogue atmosphere between the average Armenian and Turkish people, he added.
'Through this dialogue a mutual understanding, reconciliation and forgiveness can be reached, which are not political but spiritual activities,' Ambassador Lemmon said.
'I have been sincerely telling not only Armenia but also the diaspora that I don't agree with the spending of a lot of time for the approval of parliamentary resolutions on genocide. It is possible to form a dialogue between the people but this can be achieved through the efforts of the two sides. An outsider can only encourage or support this. But this is something to be achieved by the Turkish and the Armenian people,' the Ambassador said.
Asked to comment on the negative attitude in Armenia regarding the Reconciliation Committee between Turkey and Armenia, Ambassador Lemmon said that they (the U.S. administration) have been supporting the work of the reconciliation committee meeting. 'The Armenians think that the representation in the committee for their side was not sufficient,' Lemmon expressed.
'We are lucky that there is not only one road, but there is a multiplicity of dialogue,' Lemmon said, stating that the dialogue should continue through various channels.
When reminded that all contacts between unofficial groups were being locked on the so-called genocide issue, Lemmon said that this issue should be handled by serious people, without taking the issue to the public attention, silently.

Lemmon speech at ANI Conference

Ambassador Lemmon, in addition, speaking at the ANI Conference 'Armenian genocide: Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, 1914-1923' organized on April 22, 1999, made the following statement:
'... Allow me to speak bluntly, but, I hope, constructively. Turkey's democratic evolution will not be complete until Turkey's scholars, politicians and even ordinary citizens understand and accept as illegitimate the events that turned the multiethnic Ottoman Empire, home of the so-called 'Loyal Millet' into the ostensibly mono-ethnic state we see today. But such understanding is difficult and simply not possible without dialogue in good faith among scholars of good faith. ...'
The continuation of the Lemmon speech was a proposal that matched the current unofficial contacts between Turkey and Armenia, between business circles, press and academicians plus the Reconciliation Committee:
'Here is where I would differ with many who put so much time and effort into the adoption of statements by politicians and parliaments. The process that I have described will not, it seems to me, be best advanced by the issuing of public declarations and attempting to try contemporary Turks before the court of public opinion for the actions of their forefathers. Reconciliation cannot come about if one of the parties does not recognize that there is anything to feel responsibility for, much less remorse, and the other insists a priori on condemnation. What is needed is a dialogue of civilizations, of peoples, perhaps best undertaken by scholars, that takes us on not just an historic, fact-finding journey, but also on a spiritual, transcendental path that allows us to comprehend, accept and proceed in an effort to build a future where such events never occur again.'


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As a surprising coincidence, Lemmon met with Turkish reporters on plane on his way back from Istanbul to Yerevan, along with six Armenian businessmen from a fair organized in Istanbul
Lemmon was showing the Sept. 7 edition of the Turkish Daily News, which had an article on the meeting of the journalists in Yerevan, to the businessmen accompanying him and noted that it was a very important development.
Lemmon invited the Turkish journalists to the American Embassy in Yerevan after the end of the meeting of the Turkish-Azeri-Armenian journalists and made a broad evaluation of the recent situation of the Turkish-Armenian journalists.

Yerevan - Turkish Daily News

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:59:27 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: role of Saddam; White House mole?
Message:
EXPERTS SEE IRAQ AS CULPRIT
 
WASHINGTON [MENL] -- The Bush administration appears to have ruled out Iraq, but intelligence analysts say President Saddam Hussein is a key culprit as the sponsor of the suicide attacks in New York and Washington.
The analysts said the intricate details of the plan as well as the of training of the attackers point to the level of financing and coordination that is beyond any one group. They said a government must have either financed or sponsored the attack.
'It is entirely possible -- if not likely -- that both the Iraqi government and elements within the Iranian government provided support for the latest attack,' said Michael Rubin of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
R. James Woolsey, former CIA director, said the Iraqi connection must be investigated. In an article in the New Republic, Woolsey said the architect of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, Ramzi Yusef, could have been an Iraqi agent who took on an identify of somebody missing from the 1990 Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.
'Saddam still considered himself at war with the United States in 1993,' Woolsey said. 'And, tragically, he may still today.'
Several Israeli analysts agreed. 'I don't know of operative contacts between Iraq and Bin Laden,' Tel Aviv University terrorism expert Ariel Merari said. 'But because that they both share a hatred of the United States, we can't rule this out.'
Other analysts said a key concern of the administration is that the attackers had collaborators working in the U.S. government. This ranges from agents within airports and airlines to the White House itself.
They said the hijackers appeared to know the whereabouts of Air Force One, President George Bush's official plane. They said this could indicate informants in such agencies as the FBI or CIA.
'More to the point, how did they get the code-word information and transponder know-how that established their mala fides?' William Safire wrote in the New York Times. 'That knowledge of code words and presidential whereabouts and possession of secret procedures indicates that the terrorists may have a mole in the White House -- that, or informants in the Secret Service, FBI, FAA or CIA. If so, the first thing our war on terror needs is an Angleton-type counterspy.'
So far, the FBI has detained 25 suspects believed connected to the attacks. Officials said the FBI has a list of 100 people sought for interrogation.
Over the weekend, a poll by Newsweek magazine reported that 62 percent of those surveyed oppose a crackdown on Arabs and Arab-Americans. This includes the imposition of restrictions that resembled those on Japanese-Americans following the 1941 attack on Pearl Harbor.
Administration officials said Bin Laden has become the focus of the U.S. investigation into last week's attacks.
'There is no question he is what we call a prime suspect,' Bush said. 'And if he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he will be sorely mistaken.'
A senior administration official said it was premature to point to a culprit in the attacks. But he appeared to rule out any government sponsorship.
'This is a different enemy,' the official said. 'It doesn't have a capital. It doesn't have marching troops.'
But in Tel Aviv, the Israeli daily Haaretz reported on Sunday that Israel's military assesses that the United States would strike targets both in Afghanistan and Iraq. For his part, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein called on Bush to employ wisdom rather than force in any response to last week's attacks.

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-Middle East Newsline
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:28:52 (EDT)
From: such
Email: bananasplit@climbdastairs.org
To: such
Subject: biological weapons
Message:
difficult, but science, hatred exist to do it

TERRORISM: Newspaper reports satellite photos show dead animals at bin Laden training camp.

The Associated Press
AP PHOTO
THE UNTHINKABLE: This undated handout picture released by Britain's Ministry of Defense Feb. 13, 1998, shows chemical-biological warfare agent R400 aerial bombs destroyed in Iraq by U.N. inspectors after the Gulf War.

Experts say such weapons in the hands of terrorists could result in even more casualties than the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in New York and Washington, D.C.


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As devastating as Tuesday's terrorist attacks were, national security and public health experts know this much:
Something even worse could happen. There are weapons that are invisible and next-to-impossible to trace. A whiff of nerve gas. A droplet of anthrax. A particle of smallpox.
Infectious or toxic weapons in skilled hands could cause considerably more casualties among ordinary Americans than the estimated 5,000 dead and missing at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
The use of biological or chemical weapons -- described by some as the poor man's atomic bomb -- is a sensitive topic, especially now.
Experts caution that a bioterrorism attack here is not inevitable. Their opinions are the products of war games rather than an immediate and real threat.
And there are those who say that few terrorists could pull this off, that this would be a much more complicated and difficult feat than it may seem.
But the science exists to launch such an attack and, obviously, so does the hatred. President Clinton said as much as early as 1999 when he said a biological or chemical attack on the United States is 'highly likely.'
Seattle thought so, too. Before the World Trade Organization meeting there, hospitals stockpiled antidotes, just in case.
A commander of Afghanistan's Taliban told The Associated Press last year that Osama bin Laden -- described by administration officials as the prime suspect in Tuesday's attacks -- was training his fighters in the use of chemical weapons. The New York Times reported Sunday that satellite photos show dead animals at a terrorist training camp in eastern Afghanistan operated by bin Laden.
Chemical weapons might have an extraordinary effect, wiping out masses of people, all at once. But the deadly effects likely would not spread beyond the people who came in direct contact with the nerve gas or other poisonous agent.
Top 6 microbes for bioterrorism
Authorities identify six microbes that could be turned into fearsome weapons:
Smallpox tops the chilling list. Tens of millions of infectious virus particles can fit into an aerosol can.
A close second is anthrax, a spore-forming bacterium often carried by livestock that is especially virulent if inhaled.
Also worrisome are bubonic plague, ebola, botulism and tularemia.
They can be unstable and difficult to 'weaponize,' although the biotech revolution in medicine may change that.
In contrast, the scope of an attack using certain biological weapons in an airport or a domed stadium would not be apparent for days or weeks until victims showed symptoms of a mysterious illness.
By then, they could have infected many others around the world. Waves of patients might overwhelm hospitals.
The public, panicked, might turn on their neighbors unless adequate medicines and vaccines were available.
Which, the experts warn, they are not.
'The biological threat is one we are not adequately prepared for,' said Dr. Margaret A. Hamburg of the Nuclear Threat Initiative, a Washington, D.C., think tank. Hamburg was New York City health commissioner during the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.
'This is a critical moment to assess where we are vulnerable,' she said. 'The biological threat has to be very, very high on the priority list.'
Others share Hamburg's concern. 'I'm very, very alarmed,' said Donald A. Henderson, a biodefense expert at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and adviser to former President Bush.
Skeptics said Tuesday's events, while horrific, don't mean that a bioattack is on the horizon. Most terrorists, they said, don't have the expertise.
'We need to be realistic in our threat assessments,' said Jonathan B. Tucker, a nonproliferation expert at the Monterey Institute of International Studies in Washington, D.C. 'A worst-case scenario is unlikely.'
Fighting with disease was prohibited by a 1972 treaty signed by 143 nations, but biological weapons have, on occasion, been used in the past. In the Middle Ages, sieges were broken by catapulting corpses over castle walls to spread poxes and plagues. In the western United States, American Indians were given the blankets of smallpox victims.
During the Gulf War, Saddam Hussein was accused of using chemical weapons against Iraq's Kurdish minority. He was believed to have possessed biological and chemical weapons, and the CIA says he is pursuing them again.
The United States and the former Soviet Union built vast germ warfare stockpiles. In July, the Bush administration pulled out of negotiations to further enforce the biological weapons ban.
Subsequent reports suggest both nations still investigate new bioweapons, including an enhanced form of anthrax, to understand how they might work. Experts speculate that hardships might prompt some Russian scientists to sell their know-how on the black market. In addition to Iraq, Iran and Libya have reportedly pursued germ warfare.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:41:55 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: such
Subject: The Assyrian Strategy
Message:
Woolsey has alluded to this in numerous interviews. Forget Afghanistan, or have mercenaries from Pakistan and Kashmir do it. Concentrate on Iraq. We *know* we can kick *his* ass. One problem: If he has significant chemical or biological capability we'll have to concentrate on that first.

Then, at the end of the campaign, publish evidence of his perverse lifestyle and start the process of cult busting. Cast US in the light of upholder of righteousness, clean living, etc. I realize it's a small edge, but when you're climbing a precipice all you have are small edges.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:25:37 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: role of Saddam; White House mole?
Message:
What can I say?
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:43:39 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: bin Laden escape tunnels funded by CIA
Message:
Prime target


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Bin Laden may flee in tunnels

Underground escape routes funded by CIA

Special report: Afghanistan

Special report: terrorism in the US

Jonathan Steele
Tuesday September 18, 2001
The Guardian

Osama bin Laden, the United States' prime suspect in last week's attacks on New York and Washington, could escape an American revenge mission in Afghanistan by hiding in tunnels that he built with funds from the CIA.
At the height of the Afghan mojahedin's war against the Soviet invaders, the CIA provided money for a very ambitious project.
A series of defence tunnels was built in 1986 near the town of Khost in the mountains of Paktiya province, a few miles from the border with Pakistan. The aim was to store weapons and create an underground field hospital as well as to provide shelter against Russian air attack.
Bin Laden, the son of a wealthy Saudi building tycoon, had been one of the first foreign Muslims to rush to Afghanistan - within a few months of the Soviet invasion in December 1979. He brought his engineers and equipment to help with the job.
Although evidence is slim that he ever took part in combat, he was known as a well-connected donor in Peshawar, the hot and dusty Pakistani city which was to become the capital of the Afghan resistance in exile.
Bin Laden brought in other 'Arab Afghans' and funded their training as well as the spread of hardline Wahabi extremism among the Pashtuns of southern Afghanistan.
From Peshawar, weapons were carried across the border by smugglers on foot and on the backs of donkeys, movements aided by the governments of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, as well as the CIA.
The tunnel complex at Khost was a useful addition. However, Bin Laden may not have known the true source of the funds, which had been channelled through Pakistan's secret agency, the ISI.
The CIA-assisted tunnels were particularly useful after the wheel of history turned and Bin Laden became the Clinton administration's number one enemy.
With the Russians out of Afghanistan, Bin Laden had turned his wrath on the United States, furious that his own government in Saudi Arabia had invited the US to base its troops on holy soil near Mecca and Medina.
To avenge the destruction of the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in August 1998, President Clinton launched 70 cruise missiles at Bin Laden's training camps in Khost and Jalalabad.
Fourteen foreign Muslims and 20 Afghans were killed.
Bin Laden may have escaped from the bombardment by hiding out in the myriad defence tunnels, although it is much more likely that he was nowhere near where the missiles landed.
Rumours had developed a year earlier that the CIA was organising a snatch squad in Peshawar to grab him. Bin Laden responded by moving his headquarters to Kandahar, 200 miles away.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:57:27 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: bin Laden escape tunnels funded by CIA
Message:
Such:

I appreciate your having posted this, but what do you think?

Honk Kong and Tokyo markets have recouped nearly all of the losses from yesterday's drop.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:47:34 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: some stabilizing;multi-faceted approach unfolds [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:54:58 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: Saudis arrest bin Laden supporters
Message:
SAUDIS ARREST BIN LADEN SUPPORTERS
 
LONDON [MENL] -- Under heavy U.S. pressure, Saudi Arabia has launched what appears to be a crackdown on supporters of Saudi billionaire fugitive Osama Bin Laden.
Saudi opposition sources said at least two Bin Laden followers were arrested over the weekend in Mecca. Neither was a Saudi national.
One suspect was identified as a Pakistani national, Shkeel Choudary. The other was identified as an Indian national, Tufail Nizam Eddin. Both were said to have been members of the Muhajiroun group, which represents Bin Laden interests abroad.
Both detainees were said to have resided in Saudi Arabia since at least 1996. The opposition sources said they expect further arrests.
Bin Laden was said to have opposed Western troops in Saudi Arabia. But Western intelligence sources said Riyad refused numerous requests by Washington to cooperate in U.S. efforts to capture Bin Laden.
Earlier this month, Saudi King Fahd dismissed his security chief amid U.S. pressure to obtain Bin Laden from Afghanistan. The analysts said Saudi intelligence chief Prince Turki Al Faisal, the liasion with the CIA, failed to deliver Bin Laden to the United States. The prince was regarded as having close ties to Bin Laden.

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This service contains only a small portion of the information produced daily by Middle East Newsline.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:55:21 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: TheTragedy could have been prevented
Message:
Bin Laden issued warning weeks ago

LONDON

Saudi dissident Osama Bin Laden warned three weeks ago that he and his followers would carry out an unprecedented attack on the United States for its support of Israel, an Arab journalist with access to him said September 11.
Editor of the London-based Al Quds Al Arabi newspaper, Abdel Bari Atwan, said Islamic fundamentalists led by Bin Laden were 'almost certainly' behind the attack. 'It is most likely the work of Islamic fundamentalists. Osama Bin Laden warned three weeks ago that he would attack American interests in an unprecedented attack, a very big one,' he said.
'We received information that he planned very, very big attacks against American interests. We received several warnings like this. We did not take it so seriously, preferring to see what would happen before reporting it.'
Atwan has interviewed Bin Laden, one of America's most wanted men, and maintains close contacts with his followers. Bin Laden was certainly the name on the lips of Americans from the shell-shocked streets of Manhattan to the White House situation room as people grappled with one question – who could be responsible for the most horrific terrorist attack in U.S. history?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:58:50 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: But how?
Message:
Salam, how exactly could this have been avoided? bin Laden might have telegraphed the threat but so what? What should the authorities have done to respond?
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:33:44 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: But how?
Message:
This is the second report that I have read in two weeks that have warned of something big was going to happen. The other report was a week before the incident occured. A Boston paper warned that something was going to occur. But no one took notice.

Above from all the hoola boola that is going on at present about the effecinciey of the FBI, CIA, NSA and what have you , the fact is that american intelligance have failed misrably in detecting the suttle signals.

with all the resources that the American adminstration, someone should have suggested 'what if' a flying object from within the US was used as a weapon? but no one dreamed of it.

The Pentagon, the White House, Power station, nuclear facilities and important installations that are away from military bases will be objects.

Boston itself is packed full of Bin Laden family itself, that means supporters, which means intelligence, which means that they could have planted one or two agents to 'listen' to what is going inside. they could have used thier contacts with the Saudis to achive this.

Why didn't they do it.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:42:59 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: But how?
Message:
Salam:

And if we had bothered to consider the effect of burning jet fuel on a building the way the terrorists had studied it (melt below, pile driver above) we wouldn't have sent 300 firefighters and 80 cops into the building, and might have evacuated with a bit more urgency. But we didn't, and it is a comprehensible failing, horrible in its consequences.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:19:37 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Candle Light Vigil
Message:
Here's what we did Sunday night on Vashon Island, WA near Seattle. There is some interesting and timely writing on the page as well. It was profound and moving to see our small slice of Americana come together in such a beautiful way. To see how as a people, we can create beauty from feelings of fear and anger.

Richard
[ Candle Light Vigil ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:07:42 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thank you, very beautiful [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:17:23 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: .....according to Maharaji....and I quote
Message:
''''Therefore, dear premies, the time has come. See how peace will be established in the world. There will be peace on earth. That peace which disappeared shall prevail again. It will come, and once again the world will undertand. So listen to me and act accordingly. Bow down before Guru Maharaj Ji!''''

Yeah, right.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:01:10 (EDT)
From: Deobrah
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: .....according to Maharaji....and I quote
Message:
The real world has finally got up with that Hindu Charlatan, hasn't it? Bastard. The only real timing he got right, was his own Jihad ex-premie terrorism which eerily has so many parallels w/the World Terrorists. Bastard!

How are you doing Timmi? How's the spouse?

So I gather you won't be receiving Knowledge any time soon? hee hee

I like you and admire your wit.

Be well,

Deborah

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:15:37 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Erika Andersen is fond of 'Accuracy'
Message:
Amazing statement in Erika's article on correcting 'myths,' isn't it? Yes, she's all for 'accuracy.' So, if that's true, I wonder why Erika spends so much time countering red herrings.

Why does she just make up ridiculous 'myths,' things she falsely claims ex-premies say and then allegedly "refute" them? I'll tell you why. It's because it's easy to answer allegations you just make up, like Erika is doing here. In this light, she misrepresents and is just as 'innacurate' as Elan Vital is with its FAQs on its website. Anyhow, her little article speaks for itself, but I will help it along a little:

It seems to me that people who are antagonistic toward Maharaji and his students generally base their complaints on limited and obsolete data. This bugs me because I'm fond of accuracy. I'm the sort of person who interrupts my husband's stories to say, 'was it really fifteen miles, honey? I think it was only ten.' A bad habit, and I'm not proud of it, but there you are.

You should be proud, Erika, but if you are so fond of 'accuracy' have you made any attempt to correct the gross distortions and out and out lies in the answers to the FAQs on the Elan Vital website, or the statements on Maharaji's website, or do you really believe the ashrams were drug rehab centers, that Maharaji never claimed to be the incarnation of God, and that all the 'Hindu rituals' have been abolished (like darshan and Arti that recently occurred in Amaroo). Does Erika really believe Maharaji never was a 'leader' or a 'figurehead' and that he 'always' said that you could just leave knowledge anytime you wanted like he falsely claims on his website? I can't wait for Erika, the devotee of accuracy and truth, to get those things corrected.

So when someone who hasn't seen Maharaji since 1985, or who received Knowledge in the early 1970s and stopped practicing many years ago, or who doesn't have any interaction with students of Maharaji, starts talking about Knowledge and Maharaji and passing it off as accurate information, it bothers me.

Here, Erika conviently ignores that many of the people saying these 'negative' things about Maharaji were premies (aka students, aka Pwks) until the last year, sometimes the last few months, and many continue to practice knowledge but no longer recognize Maharaji has having anything to do with the experience they are having.

Moreover, many of us who left years ago, have seen Maharaji since then, and are quite aware of what he says and does. But sorry you are bothered, but what you are saying here is, I am afraid, just a myth.

Myth: Students of Maharaji are virtual hermits, associating only with others who 'share their beliefs.'

Where did you get this, Erika? I think you just made it up. I have never heard an ex-premie say this. Who said it, Erika? Who? I think it came right out of that brain of yours, because it's easy to answer, and compeletly trivializes the legitimate complaints ex-premies have with Maharaji. It's manipulative and slimy.

Myth: Students of Maharaji who lived in the ashram sustained irreparable damage to their lives and careers because of the time they spent 'out of the world.'

Fact: My husband and I and two of our closest friends lived in the ashram for an aggregate total of 23 years. We are all happily married (both of our friends to people who don't have Knowledge), with lucrative and fulfilling careers and lives rich with friends and fun. The vast majority of the former ashram premies I know who are still practicing Knowledge are happy and successful by any common measure.

I don't know if any damage is 'irreparable' and as to Erika's friends who are happy and successful, so what? The fact is, we were induced to live in the ashram under false pretenses. Maharaji claimed to be Lord of the Universe, and said we were to devote and surrender our lives, entirely, to him in an institution he claimed was a life-long committment, not some kind of temporary experiment.

Hence, many of us lived a decade or more in the ashrams, foresaking anything else we would be doing with our lives, including careers, relationships, sex, and time and connections with our families. True, Maharaji dumped everyone out of the ashrams in 1983, sticking the ashram residents with the debts, but he also terrified us from ever leaving in ashram meetings and other 'satsang' tirades before that. So this big flip flop on Maharaji's part kind of requires some kind of explanation and, should I say "care" about it, don't you think? Not much of any of that was in sight, and according to Dettmers, Maharaji didn't really express much concern about any of us, and rather blamed us for the ashram "failure." It's atrocious.

So, Erika, as you know, you only have so many years in your life, and to the extent you wasted them following a charlatan 'messiah' that is 'irreparable' damage in my book and whether people are now happy and successful is completely beside that point, and is due more to their own ingenuity and pluck in the face of the damage, than to Maharaji, knowledge or the ashram. And this is in addition to the ashram premies who committed suicide, and who were so unprepared to re-enter the world, that they did so with disastrous results. I guess Erika doesn't know any of those people, as they probably would not be rubbing elbows with her in her upper-class, yuppie world, the happiness of which she continually reminds us.

Myth: Students of Maharaji are forced to give huge sums of money to support M's opulent lifestyle.

Yet another lie that Erika just makes up, claiming this is something ex-premies actually say. Erika, again, state your proof. Who actually said that premies were 'forced' to give money to Maharaji to support his opulent lifestyle? Who? It's another example of misrepresentation on the part of Erika in a manipulative fashion which is now seemingly chronic.

Having said that, when I was a premie, there was significant pressure on followers of Maharaji to send money directly to Maharaji to support his lavish lifestyle, including in the darshan lines. When I was an ashram housefather in three different ashrams, we sent 10% of our income to DLM and 10% of our income to Maharaji directly, for years. I, personally, made out checks to 'Guru Maharaj Ji' on behalf of the ashram and sent them to his personal PO box in Malibu. We also pressured (as directed from "the top") people to give millions of dollars to get Maharaji planes he wanted, and I am ashamed to say that I personally participated in this. So, no, nobody was 'forced' but the milieu of pressure to donate premeated the organization, and from what I understand, it still does.

As Erika admits elsewhere, for many years, DLM and Maharaji's opulent lifestyle were indistinguishable. DLM just bought M that house in Malibu, according to Mishler, who was President of DLM at the time, and bought him whatever outragous luxury he wanted, and we all supported it because nothing was too good for the living Perfect Master of our time. But as Dettmers has told us, all the tax problems got cleaned up at some point, so, no, I'm sure there isn't anything illegal about the way Elan Vital pays Maharaji's 'expenses' which I am sure are astronomical.

Maharaji hardly ever does 'introductory' programs anymore, but if he does, it costs in the neighborhood of $250K because Maharaji MUST be transported and housed in the style to which he has become accustomed, which is apparently more important than even doing the program or "spreading knowledge." If you don't have the money, Maharaji doesn't go.

I'm sure they are all 'legal' expenses of Elan Vital and the 'donatations' thereto. Perhaps Erika, in her crusade for accuracy, will also point out to Elan Vital that it also lies on its website in saying that M's plane is 'rented' from 'a separate corporation' when that 'corporation' is completely run by premies, including Mary Holle as president. Erika, please let us know when you correct that innacuracy.

Myth: Students of Maharaji give up their will and judgment to him and allow him to run their lives.

Give us a break Erika. Now you are just sounding like a nut. Again, who, other than you, has said this?

Myth: Students of Maharaji are made to feel guilty and bad if they stop practicing Knowledge or stop considering Maharaji their teacher.

Erika says that she knows people who practice knowledge who don't recognize Maharaji as their teacher (good for them, Erika, you might listen to why those people feel that way, maybe they are on to something), but since she doesn't know whether people are practicing or not, how could they be pressured? Huh?

What Erika again conveniently ignores is that MAHARAJI said a lot of threatening things about what would happen to you if you stopped practicing knowledge, including the rotting vegetables, going to hell, and smashing into a thousand pieces, all of which I heard right out of that mouth of his.

Erika also showed up on this Forum a few months ago and we talked about it. But Erika doesn't want to address that, she just ignores the real supposed 'myth' about Maharaji's culpability in instilling fear in his followers, and talks about, well, what she talked about, which is so entirely irrelevent as to be laughable.

Okay, so maybe Maharaji doesn't say things like that anymore, but the other supposed 'myth' Erika conveniently ignores is that Maharaji has never taken any responsbility for saying those things. None whatsoever, and Erika just provides whitewash to all that. And really, Erika, you are extremely offensive and insulting when you do that, because it completely invalidates the experience of many of us. Don't you see that far from defusing the situation, it just inflames it? Do you really think you are helping Maharaji by trivializing the legitimate experience of other people? If your website really did allow for an open discussion and a way to address those things directly, that might really be helpful to everyone. But I haven't seen that so far.

Myth: Students of Maharaji spend all their time thinking and talking about Knowledge and Maharaji, and have no real life outside the 'cult.'

I won't even dignify this made-up crap with an answer. Erika, this is chronic misrepresentation. This is kind of scary.

Myth: Maharaji doesn't care about his students; all he cares about is getting rich.

Okay, this is an actual allegation, sort of. Erika says Maharaji is a nice guy, and he tries to make 'events' comfortable for people, and he has even asked about her welfare, and he is committed to spreading knowledge, according to Erika, although I'm not sure the evidence supports that.

Since 99% of premies have likely never even met Maharaji I think his personal 'niceness' is kind of meaningless. I have never heard that Maharaji can't be quite charming, or can be at times, in person. So? He didn't seem to be very caring about his ashram premies, now was he Erika? I guess he kind of fell down on his nice guy thing at that point. Plus, while I was a premie, I never saw that Maharaji gave a rats ass about us as individuals. I lived in his ashram for almost 10 years and he never bothered to know my name or even speak to me.

I saw him be repeatedly and unreasonably demanding at DECA, towards premies working without sleep in dangerous conditions. He wasn't very concerned about their welfare, only in getting the plane, project, or whatever it was he wanted. So, at best, this is a mixed bag, and since none of us live with him, we don't know. Maybe he is a nicer guy, now. I certainly hope so, but who knows? But let's look at what we do know.

Many of us have pointed out the obvious fact that Maharaji's priorities do not appear to be what he professes. During the same time he has amassed immense wealth for himself personally, he has failed utterly in 'spreading knowledge' and has thousands fewer followers today in the West than he had 20 years ago.

He rarely does 'introductory programs,' rarely advertises his existence or that of 'knowledge,' and has shown little interest in doing anything other than retaining his core audience, his dwindling group of devotees from the 70s (even with ARTI and feet-kissing in Amaroo a few months ago), and engaging in technological gimmicks, pretending that these are finally going to spread the word, after 30 years of failed attempts. That, more than anything else should give objective people an idea of where Maharaji's priorities really are.

Care to address these points, Erika? I would send this to your website, but I doubt it would ever be printed. Okay I will send it and see how open to dialogue you actually are.

Joe

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:19:39 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: One Addition for Erika Andersen
Message:
I wanted to expand some on one of Erika's mythical 'myths' that she discusses on her new, nifty website. There, she says:

Myth: Students of Maharaji give up their will and judgment to him and allow him to run their lives.

And I responded:

Give us a break Erika. Now you are just sounding like a nut. Again, who, other than you, has said this?

I would also like to add, that while no ex-premie I have ever heard has ever suggested that Maharaji runs peoples' lives in the year 2001, it is important to point out that for many years he did, including Erika's life, and my own.

Having known Erika in the Maharaji cult, I dare say that if Maharaji had told her to stand on her head and gargle peanut butter, when I knew her, she would have done it willingly, because, as I heard her say repeatedly, the purpose of her life was to devote and surrender it to her Master, Maharaji, and in that belief, she was doing precisely what Maharaji was telling us to do. I would have likely done the same thing. Erika could be quite heavy about this when advising others what to do, which she often did, if I recall correctly.

So, that's a ridiculous allegation now, perhaps, but at one time it was absolutely true, for many premies, for many years, including Erika Andersen. For example, as Erika pointed out on Forum V, in 1982 she specifically asked Maharaji if it was okay to get married, and was very nervous that he wouldn't let her. Why? Because he was runing her life, that's why.

I wonder Erika. If, when you were so nervous to meet with Maharaji in 1982, when you wanted to leave the ashram and get married, if Maharaji had said 'no,' that you shouldn't do that (which he did say to Dettmers and others who wanted to get married), would you have left the ashram and gotten married anyway? Be honest.

And so, is it true, that this is all in the past, and we should forget it, and not talk about it? Well, that's a personal choice, but the fact that the cult lies about all that, and because Maharaji has never addressed his responsbility for encouraging, no, DEMANDING that of us, isn't it fair, correct, and just to demand that he do so, even today, in 2001? I think so.

Plus, I think it's important for people who are considering getting involved with him to know what Maharaji's past really is. If EV and Maharaji were honest about that, there wouldn't be any need for us to point that out.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 10:39:49 (EDT)
From: A Friend
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Erika Andersen is fond of 'Accuracy'
Message:
Erika left here 6 months ago is search of REAL answers to the duplicity of Maharaji's behavior. She assured us that SHE and her husbamd would ask Maharaji if these allegations were true. And by golly get a response.

Somehow,I feel that answer never came! And the extreme conflict from that LACK of response, was the seed of this new website, an attempt to address her own vulnerability to Maharaji's lack of response.

Pride goeth before the fall.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:13:51 (EDT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: succesfull premies defending their beliefsytem
Message:
Hi Joe,

I remember the post from Erika on FV she sounded honest, but her website appears to me like a thin polished surface and to make their own ego shining.

Thanks for your comments...............wolfie

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:04:22 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Erika Andersen's web site
Message:
Hi everyone,

This may come off as incredibly naive but I am going to present this anyway. Is it possible that Erika, David, et al truly BELIEVE everything they've written on their website? The reason I'm asking this is because I remember how much I 'believed' when I was a card carrying premie and ashram resident. Even the stuff that I hadn't directly experienced myself -- I wanted to believe it enough that I convinced myself I did. I felt pity for those who had left the fold and were spreading derogatory information about M who I then loved so much.

I guess I started thinking about this last night after viewing her website and surfing thru some of the others and finding a couple of people I knew. I was surprised they were still involved. I guess I figured that when I woke up and smelled the coffee, that the others I knew would eventually follow suit.

My point is (man, I wish I was as eloquent as some others who post here and get to the point!) how can we expect otherwise from those who have invested so much in M? Wasn't the most frightening moment for most of us that instant when we knew we should be heading in the other direction -- some of us running to save our lives? Wasn't even the journey towards coming to that conclusion a bit frightening? What was the impetus for you, each of you, to change course, despite all you had previously believed and all you had invested? Was it the voice of someone else telling you all the horrible things you should wake up to? Or was it some inner voice that let you hear what the others were saying?

I see the website as less of a propaganda machine (tho it ultimately fulfils the same purpose) and more as a way of defending a belief system that can be easily attacked, questioned and critised by others. I know I'm opening myself up with this one (and please pardon me because I am so very new to this forum and haven't been here thru all you have been -- would love to be filled in so I can have a more informed opinion about the personal attacks that have closed down some of these forums.)I just don't see us making any changes or opening anyone's eyes by making it too personal.

Maybe I'm the one making this too personal because it's Erika (she was my housemother when I first moved into the 'shram, for pete's sake!) and David (I babysat for his daughter when she was a toddler) and I have seen how deeply they believe. It's hard for me to see her as anything but sincere in her attempts to ward off any negativity towards something to which she has dedicated her life.

Maybe that is what makes it all the more frightening. See how deep this thing runs? See how pervasive this indoctrination is? Oh, I don't have answers, only more questions. Which I can't go into right now cause 'Clifford, the Big Red Dog' is over and I have to change the channel for my 3 year old.

Hope this makes some sense.
Best to all,
Susan

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:23:13 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: You hit the nail on the head, Sue
Message:
Erika et al are talking to themselves. I had not thought of them ''propping up their egos'' but that's exactly what they are doing. As their master is diminished in the eyes of the world so is their self-worth. They are trying desperately to fix the leaks in guru's boat which sails them across the ocean of maya.

My advice would be to let their egos die. That's what the ultimate purpose of having a master is after all.

Pity they can't see that it's all in their minds. Maharajism is the ultimate mind trip.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:27:40 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Well Said Susan
Message:
I think what you are saying is so true, and this is the thing I need to keep reminding myself. People who follow Maharaji likely really ARE having an experience that they treasure, and I have no doubt that it is real and profound. I can say the same thing for me, when I was a premie, and I think every ex-premie would say the same. There was a lot of love shared among premies, most of whom were very sincere, creative, fun, intelligent, honest people. No doubt about that.

But the difference, I think, is that ex-premies realize that Maharaji has nothing to do with the experience they had. That's the key difference in my opinion. [I have also come to the conclusion that 'knowledge' didn't have anything to do with it either, but I know some people who don't accept Maharaji, still value the meditation, so that might be different for different people.] But for me, it took getting away from Maharaji, knowledge and the belief system for me to realize that I was every bit as happy, in fact much happier, outside that belief system, than I was when I was in it.

And as a premie, I have done all kinds of bizarre things to protect my belief system, which WAS the source of the 'experience' I was having, IMO, including tons of rationalization, tons of repression, tons of compartmentalized thinking, magical thinking, etc., to protect it. And I have no doubt that people continue to do it.

And I know what you mean about the fear, the absolute terror in fact, I felt when I realized that I was not only in a cult, but that I had done all those things (repression,etc.,) for years. On the one hand, I felt exhilarated and free to be out of that, on the other, it was kind of frightening and might have been easier in some sense to just go on believing. I am very grateful, however, that I didn't.

And really, it was because I was SO miserable being a premie, because it violated so many of the values I grew up with, because I saw Maharaji's greed and lies, and his uncarring for other people, that it took all that for me to leave. It was almost like if I was going to hell, I didn't care, because hell appeared better than what was happening to me in the Maharaji cult. I had to take the leap, but when I did, I was so glad I did.

So, I don't really feel anger or animosity towards premies. I do, however, feel the need to correct the record where I can. I'm not sure why, exactly, that I am motivated to do this. I think it's some sense of justice and truth that I got from my Father. Plus, I find all of this extremely interesting. I keep telling people there is a book in all of this someplace and I would love to write it. It's just fascinating to me to look at the dynamics of belief systems and how people deal with them. We truly are complex beings, and endlessly unpredictable and fascinating.

In the end, what I really believe in most, is that if you get both sides of the story out, people can look at it for themselves and make up their own minds. Until EPO existed, there wasn't any place for people to do that. All you had was what the cult was saying, and not what ex-premies were saying. I think that's very valuable.

By the way Susan, I really enjoy your posts, and thanks so much for your perspective.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:30:48 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Well Said Joe
Message:
You have the patience of a saint to deconstruct all the premie rationalization.

I think most of us who still enjoy meditation have also seen that Rawat's K is not the answer. They are simply tools and there are many kinds of tools that achive the same end. It is not what you do but the effort that you make. Most premies make no effort but are content to be spoonfed by videos etc.

Much more important than K is mental health, speaking and thinking the truth and having a sane and sensible attitude towards life. Many of the premies I know are not sane or happy.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:20:46 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: You are VERY eloquent Suedoula
Message:
Excellent post! May I suggest you send your post to Erika's website?
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:35:59 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: You are VERY eloquent Suedoula
Message:
Excellent post! May I suggest you send your post to Erika's website?


---

Thank you kindly, Gerry. If I did send my post, wouldn't I merely be viewed as an univited guest?

BTW, did anyone notice that there are NO posted responses to their invitation to 'SPEAK OUT?' Didn't Joe send his post to the site? - they are probably waiting for a response they feel is more 'fit to print' and I doubt mine would fit the bill.

Best to all,
Susan

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:43:45 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Oh is my face red!!!!!!
Message:
Oh my -- how I wish I had changed the subject line of that last post!!! My face is so VERY, VERY RED!!!!!! I am not really that arrogant nor presumptious!

Blushing with embarrassment,
Susan

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:42:35 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: OF COURSE THEY BELIEVE IT
Message:
That is the 'MAGIC' of K as taught by 'XXXCACASHIT'; it provides the 'BEAUTIFUL' possibility of blinding reasoning and common sense.

It sounds good, so it must be good is all they have. I simply cannot believe that these individuals can speak that way after the tons of evidence of LARD being a total, depicable total liar!

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:16:02 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Erika needs an enema NT
Message:
yeap
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:16:15 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Erika Andersen is a joke
Message:
And whenhe BigHead gets exposed publicly for the Charlatan that he is, she'll have that message to face. Until then, fuck her if she can;t take a joke. Why do premies have to resort to lies. Because the truth is empty. There is nothing there to say. So she has to lie. What a bitch. NO. Make that a stupid bitch. It's one thing to love Maha despite what you hear and read and know, it's clearly another thing to make up shit.

But without fuck-ups like Erika writing shit like that, nobody would believe us when they got here to see for themselves. So, we should welcome more brain-deads like her.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:06:10 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: No, she isn't a joke...
Message:
She isn't stupid, she isn't brain dead and she isn't a bad person. I don't know her motivations, but I have my speculations.

I don't know if Erika realizes the misrepresentation she is engaging in. But in any event, I don't think we, ex-premies who have decided to leave Maharaji and speak out about it publicly, are the audience that Erika, David, Mitch and that other guy have put together. No, the audience is 'potentially interested people' and is, I believe, intended to be some kind of a 'counter-spin' to what we have been saying, and what is on the EPO website. Erika and David have already tried to come to the Forum and dissuade us, and that didn't work.

Before there was EPO, the cult relied on secrecy and total lack of discussion about Maharaji, his past, and his personal life as a means of keeping things going. Now, that isn't possible because of the Internet, and because of people who actually witnessed things and speaking about them, and so there has been an attempt to counter the truth about Maharaji coming out. As we found out recently, the EPO website gets more traffic than EV's, or Maharaji's website. This is a problem, I guess, for Maharaji, although I'm not exactly sure why they care so much about what we say.

We have seen the reaction on a few fronts now. Maharaji, after first criticizing the internet, set up cult websites, including his own, to try to counteract the ex-premies. Then, he sicked his lawyers on the ex-premie websites to try to shut them down. When that failed, EV tried a very pathetic counter-spin with its ridiculously false FAQs. When that backfired, even resulting in premies being very embarrassed about the ridiculous things Elan Vital said, some premies went after some of us as individuals trying to label us as angry, mentally ill people, on websites like those of Pia Grunbaum and Charles Glasser.

Then, when premies continued to leave the cult, certain premies tried to intimidate us from speaking out by setting up a website trying to defame us and threaten us and our families, and engage in harrassing blackmail. Whether Elan Vital or Maharaji were involved with that, we may yet see.

I think the current website is an attempt at pure counter-spin/propaganda. It has the facade of actually answering the very damaging things people have exposed about Maharaji and his cult, but really is just another attempt to counter what they must consider a very serious problem.

We have yet to hear an actual factual denial of any of the specifics of what has been said. Moreover, this new website like all the others, won't allow open discussion, likely censors contributions to the site, and won't even link to the ex-premie sites.

On the contrary, the ex-premie sites do all of the above and encourage open discussion and opinions. I will leave it to any objective person to come to there own conclusions on which websites are actually interested in finding the truth.

Why, we might ask, are ex-premies saying what they know such a threat to Maharaji and his cult? And if what is being said isn't true, why don't they address it directly, and more specifically, why doesn't Maharaji?

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:13:23 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That is IT!
Message:
Hi Joe,
You said:

I don't know if Erika realizes the misrepresentation she is engaging in. But in any event, I don't think we, ex-premies who have decided to leave Maharaji and speak out about it publicly, are the audience that Erika, David, Mitch and that other guy have put together. No, the audience is 'potentially interested people' and is, I believe, intended to be some kind of a 'counter-spin' to what we have been saying, and what is on the EPO website.

Like any devotees who need their guru maharaji and would 'die' without him they need to at least try to defend him and you are right. These premies write for those poor desperate souls WHO WANT TO HEAR EXACTLY THAT. They need to hear MMMXXXMMMM is okay. Their need for him is stronger than their need to reason logically. They write for the brainwashed brains....

Of course to us, those who saw 'the light' it appears as what it's: Total BS> We know the truth.

I enjoy and read your posts. Thanks! :)

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:17:18 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Erika..
Message:
Why dont maharaji adress it directly.?
That is really the big question, is it not ?
But he do not , and why ?

You tell me Erika ?

Do you really think your website is honest ?

why dont you wonder why M never makes a reply?
I dont get it
The only way i can understand all this is
that you have left all of your honesty to yourself

i am scared of your all
And you are not , the way, i remember us ...
I cannot see you at all

really it is so sad , and so far away from where we all came.
who are you fooling? ,,, and why ?

Ulf

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:41:08 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Well said, Ulf
Message:
My charitable view of their lies is that their minds have been so bent out of shape by Rawat that they no longer know what the truth is.

Very sad and very far from the ideals we once all espoused.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:42:05 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Well said, Ulf
Message:
Yes and the most perverted thing is , that now they will all tell
us that the place we all espoused from was wrong .
They will also take away our past , cannot belive it all

Best wishes Poul

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:28:36 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: I agree Ulf, well said
Message:
You make an excellent point there Ulf, even though we were wrong to believe the things we were told and shown, it is nevertheless our real past.

They attack the very integrity of coming to grips with the past.

Shame on them. It may have been foolish and gullible, but it was our reality. Glad to hear some people still hold the same virtues and ideals that brought us together the first time. Spot-on!

fondly,

Deborah

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:27:10 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Erika Andersen is fond of 'Accuracy'
Message:
where did this come from?
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:52:59 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: never mind, found it..nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:00:02 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: *****BEST OF*****
Message:
Nicely done Joe, just excellent. I am so glad you take the time to do this and I really appreciate it.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:59:52 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: What Joe says Is True....
Message:
I Just want to add my support to you Joe, in your Attempt to correct the Recent Public Relations Attempt of this New Maharaji Website.

As one who received knowledge in Early 1973 and was a 'premie' until about 2 months ago...I am in complete agreement with your assessment of the diversionary tactics used by this site in what appears to be their attempt to shield people from the REAL allegations made about Maharaji..... and the Overwhelming Facts supporting those Allegations.

This Site first Creates its own 'myths' (supposed allegations brought by former followers of Maharaji). It then tries to 'dispell' those (non) myths with equally misleading arguments. The 'myths' that the site alleges are, for the most part, NOT the Allegations that have been testified to by Many former Followers of Maharaji.

Until about 2 months ago, I had loved adored and for many years Worshipped Maharaji. I was guided to do all these things (including, yes, worship) by the 'Master' himself.

I then found ex-premie.org through a search engine. I began reading of the Many experiences by those who had been very Close to Maharaji for years. They Testified as to his chronic behavior and actions when not in public view. Their Testimony was Credible Consistent..and Very Compelling.

It paints a picture of a man who is a Chronic Alcholic and Very Personally and Morally Flawed. A Man who was brought up to be Play God..and though he no longer overtly assumes that role..refuses to tell the truth about his past and uses all attempts to cover up the Truth about his past.

It was after reading these very compelling and Disturbing Testimonies by obviously sincere people who had intimate knowledge of the 'REAL' Maharaji, that I sadly, after 28 years ended my association with Him and his Mission.

The Techniques of Knowledge Work...But Maharaji still claims ownership of the Techniques and the Experiences Generated by them. Thus the People on this New Maharaji Website can talk about Blissful experiences and how nice their non- religion is...But when they talk about Maharaji and his alleged role in their happiness...and when they talk about the supposed 'Myths'...they are attempting to shape their (and Your) reality to support their delusions.

I only ask that you READ of the Experience that Bob Mischler, Michael Dettmers, and Mike Donner had with Maharaji as 3 of Maharaji's Closest Devotees for over 20 years...And If you arent convinced read more from the many other ex-followers that have testified as to Maharaji's behaviors. Then...Make up your Mind for Yourself.

Thank you, Joe, for taking the time to set the record straight..And I have to Say...after one of the WORST weeks This world and We Americans have Ever Experienced...It is SO Nice to be able to read about topics pertinent to this forums purpose: To help those who have discovered the Truth about Guru Maharaji express and share their realizations...and To help those who have Not yet found the Truth out ..to have ACCESS to the facts ..so they can make an informed decision.

Thank You all. God Bless this World...and God Bless the United States of America....RichMandrake...

.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:31:46 (EDT)
From: Holy Heck, another
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: *****Best OF*****
Message:
I Just want to add my support to you Joe, in your Attempt to correct the Recent Public Relations Attempt of this New Maharaji Website.

As one who received knowledge in Early 1973 and was a 'premie' until about 2 months ago...I am in complete agreement with your assessment of the diversionary tactics used by this site in what appears to be their attempt to shield people from the REAL allegations made about Maharaji..... and the Overwhelming Facts supporting those Allegations.

This Site first Creates its own 'myths' (supposed allegations brought by former followers of Maharaji). It then tries to 'dispell' those (non) myths with equally misleading arguments. The 'myths' that the site alleges are, for the most part, NOT the Allegations that have been testified to by Many former Followers of Maharaji.

Until about 2 months ago, I had loved adored and for many years Worshipped Maharaji. I was guided to do all these things (including, yes, worship) by the 'Master' himself.

I then found ex-premie.org through a search engine. I began reading of the Many experiences by those who had been very Close to Maharaji for years. They Testified as to his chronic behavior and actions when not in public view. Their Testimony was Credible Consistent..and Very Compelling.

It paints a picture of a man who is a Chronic Alcholic and Very Personally and Morally Flawed. A Man who was brought up to be Play God..and though he no longer overtly assumes that role..refuses to tell the truth about his past and uses all attempts to cover up the Truth about his past.

It was after reading these very compelling and Disturbing Testimonies by obviously sincere people who had intimate knowledge of the 'REAL' Maharaji, that I sadly, after 28 years ended my association with Him and his Mission.

The Techniques of Knowledge Work...But Maharaji still claims ownership of the Techniques and the Experiences Generated by them. Thus the People on this New Maharaji Website can talk about Blissful experiences and how nice their non- religion is...But when they talk about Maharaji and his alleged role in their happiness...and when they talk about the supposed 'Myths'...they are attempting to shape their (and Your) reality to support their delusions.

I only ask that you READ of the Experience that Bob Mischler, Michael Dettmers, and Mike Donner had with Maharaji as 3 of Maharaji's Closest Devotees for over 20 years...And If you arent convinced read more from the many other ex-followers that have testified as to Maharaji's behaviors. Then...Make up your Mind for Yourself.

Thank you, Joe, for taking the time to set the record straight..And I have to Say...after one of the WORST weeks This world and We Americans have Ever Experienced...It is SO Nice to be able to read about topics pertinent to this forums purpose: To help those who have discovered the Truth about Guru Maharaji express and share their realizations...and To help those who have Not yet found the Truth out ..to have ACCESS to the facts ..so they can make an informed decision.

Thank You all. God Bless this World...and God Bless the United States of America....RichMandrake...

.


---

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:09:26 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Thanks, Rich
Message:
Yes, it's been a very rough week for so many people. I doubt our world will ever be the same, but I think there is also an opportunity for people to come together and talk about their values, and how we can help protect, defend and help each other. I sure hope so. That would be a very positive thing to come out of what is otherwise so tragic.

Thanks also for your comments about my post. All the best to you and yours.

Joe

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:20:16 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Bush does something good!
Message:
I caught the end of a news item where Bush was in a mosque saying quite clearly that Moslems were not the enemies of the USA, and that Americans should not turn against other Americans.

I am quite astounded to say 'Well done that man'.

John.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:38:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: What Bush is and what he isn't
Message:
Bush, in my opinion, is a sorry excuse for a U.S. president. He's obviously not that smart and that causes all sorts of problems. For one thing, it makes him look awkward all the time as he tries to live up to a responsibility that's clearly beyond him. As an atheist, I also consider his Christian faith-on-his-sleeve a real detriment. I think he's out to lunch, as are many Americans unfortunately, on guns and gun control and I abhor his views on the environment. I don't think for a moment that his presidency doesn't pose some valid dangers to the world. Anytime a U.S. president is that unskilled it's worrisome.

However, having said that, I honestly think Bush is a decent enough guy. Yes he enjoys America's success and supremacy -- as do most Americans and as have all nationalities when their states or civilizations lead the pack -- but he's not out to control the world in any sort of evil, Machiavellian way. I believe that his goals in this crisis are completely noble and fair and, seeing as he does happen to be the president, I support his efforts to find the wisest, most effective path through this mess. I'm not at all surprised that he spoke out against indiscriminate racism if that's what he did. He's not the one who blew up the WTC; he's just the guy who has to figure out what to do about it.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 04:45:31 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Good Morning, Crusaders!
Message:
I also consider his Christian faith-on-his-sleeve a real detriment...

And some of his language is frighteningly ill-judged for the situation. To call for a Crusade is, under the circumstances, unfortunate, too easily seen as inflamatory.

It has me wondering if this series of Crusades, like the last, is intended to secure the Holy Land for Christendom? Just kidding. I know (I hope) that is not why he chose the word, but sheesh!

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:17:55 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Good Morning, Crusaders!
Message:
John:

'Crusade'

I think it's a Billy Grahamism. To be honest I take a perverse pleasure in the notion of such a linguistically challenged individual routing someone with Bin Laden's hoity toity flowery language skills, and hunting him down like a rabbit. I mean, I know I shouldn't, but...

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 00:51:41 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What Bush is and what he isn't
Message:
Frankly, I think he's only 'a decent enough guy' because he got what he wanted, by hook or by crook, the presidency whether he deserved it or not. Unless you've seen him in person, or his father, it is impossible to understand the depths of their fanatism (sp). They are so unbelievably frightening it defies the imagination. The good ole boy routine he shuffles around with doesn't work. Cover up his smiling face and just look at his eyes sometime. Don't forget, his daddy was head of the c-i-a for years, when all sorts of nasty things were going on. And we have one of the other Bush boys to thank for the Savings and Loan debacle that did in the economy.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:30:13 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: What Bush is and what he isn't
Message:
Well, all probably true. Doesn't mean he's not the right man for this job. Indeed, a little ruthlessness and craftiness inspires more faith in me than simple good will right now. I'll worry about the stolen election another time.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:35:29 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Er, did he mention non-Americans..? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:23:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I think he did.
Message:
In what context? We've been thinking about making our President the CEO of the World, but the Canadians keep objecting. In fact, he started to say something about such people being 'the worst of America' but quickly changed it to 'the worst of humanity.'
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:44:29 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: This must be repeated
Message:
I think so, but I'd just switched channels. I'm pretty sure that he said that Islam is NOT the enemy. I was impressed, and really didn't expect to be so.

Others must have seen this, and it will no doubt be repeated, so can anyone confirm what Bush said?

John.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:09:57 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: This must be repeated
Message:
I saw it two or three times. I don't remember him saying 'Islam is not the enemy', but I'm not certain. I'm pretty certain he was speaking strictly to Americans about America.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:03:02 (EDT)
From: WMary
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: This must be repeated
Message:
HE also said that Islam means 'Peace'.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:11:22 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My Submission
Message:
There is a keen new website that really must make all you ex-premies feel small. All the people there are very successful, groovy people, and they have answered all your false allegations once and for all. I am blissed out, and really feeling that love, that peace, that truth and that experience. On the website, those students asked us to make submissions:

'What negative allegations being made about Maharaji and Knowledge do you most disagree with and why?'

What do I MOST disagree with? Well, I think somebody said that Maharaji spoke 48 languages, and that when he was a kid somebody was using microphones to fake his speeches. Those are laughable and really lies. I really disagree with that.

Also, I don't think Maharaji ever bombed any buildings, nor did he fly planes into skyscrapers. I really disagree with those lies, too.

Oh, yeah, somebody said Maharaji didn't wear condoms when he had sex with his mistress. I really doubt that. Maharaji is very, very clean. And the one time I was around him, he was super, super nice, ya know?

Thanks for this nifty website.

Pauline Premie.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:34:15 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: What web site?
Message:
or is this a joke?

We are stressed here, ya know.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:53:38 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: keep going Salam
Message:
You are getting warmer, just 4 more threads to go :)
Here's a hint: The subject line is more exciting than the site
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:17:42 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: keep going Salam
Message:
shit. I only left the forum few hours ago and there is all this stuff happening. Anyway I did find it. So these guys are the 4 mosketeers or something?

No, this is an individual effort, by student of guru maharaji, Oh I see. Why are some of the posts taken from ELK but? And how come they can write so much [with no typos, sheesh]?

anyway, do you know how the 4Ms are?

Am a bit run down at present, but am open to suggestions. Any chocolate left? }):)

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:42:12 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: try to figure out my AG too post
Message:
I don't know any Musketeers. A deprived childhood. No Stooges neither.
And I read about 5 links through the site and got bored so can't tell you much you haven't already seen and figured out.
You sound good. I had another bump from chocolate and am off it for now. So I would not suggest my chocolate, some sort of poverty chic Trader Joe's chocolat it was. I don't suppose you have Trader Joe's Markets where you are.
I'm burnt out too, can not do much but read read read.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:59:47 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: try to figure out my AG too post
Message:
Do you thing we should as the 'followers of maharaji' to be nice to us. Am as sick as a dog today. those guys don't do nothing but put spam sites on the net, hey this one is good, their meta tags include reference to ex-premies, forum 5,6,7..n, love and others. So from no on anyone types ex-premies they will find them. Pretty nasty. Am having a mars bar.

shit am sick.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:04:29 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: to other S and S's
Message:
Meta Tags to EX premie places? Isn't that? ..well why confuse them I'll leave it , am sure you know where I'm heading with this.
I'm sick too. Mood swings have been flying. Can't eat.
And Stonor, it's about you of course! after all it's not about me :)
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:12:49 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: S's ot
Message:
Hi Selene,

I wish to talk with u soon...I'll call.

Be well, :)

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:46:41 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Hello Silvia ...
Message:
I hope you are well, all considered. I noticed that you said hello to me a while ago, but I didn't get a chance to reply or something or other happened, so I just want to take the opportunity to wish you and your family all the best through the difficult time we are in.

Love,

Anna

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:03:54 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hello Stonor
Message:
That is nice of you. Thanks!

My poor mother in the far lands thought I was close to NY and went frantic, calling me and leaving messages taht day. I was working and did not returned home until late. I am very sadden by the incident, as everyone. All to come is uncertain.

I wish you the best too. :)

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:16:22 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Thanks Silvia. (nt)
Message:
hugs
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 10:56:57 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Hi Siliva - why isn't SC blocked
Message:
Yeah I'm working most afternoons but am around later.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:15:19 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: LOL!!! :)
Message:
Well, you're right - we can be sure that it's not about you in this case at least! (and thanks for the laugh ... and I'm glad you got it! ;)

My thumb's doing better, I'll email soon ... what a time we're in, and what to say - these days I'm almost glad that I spend most of my time alone. I talked with my cousin on Sunday, and we kept swearing that we were not going to talk about it anymore, and the next second we'd be back to talking in circles about it. Talk about an elephant (or should that be a raging rhino) in all our lives! It was sleeping on Salam last night!!!

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:29:28 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: LOL!!! :)
Message:
bet you it's full moon somewhere, or is it me only. Hey Selene, care to explain ur post on AG2.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:51:17 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: you can play with it
Message:
Just wanted to lighten up a bit.
We can figure it out over there.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:25:37 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: LOL!!! :)
Message:
hi Stonor, you have to email me and tell me what you guyz takin bout.

nice to see you here. Got your emails. Bon Soir

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:33:13 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Which part?
Message:
And I don't know if anyone can explain that post on AGtoo ... maybe if sleep on it ... just a vague memory of a 'Regina' that was having a lot of fun posting with Selene one night.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:37:20 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Which part?
Message:
Maybe Selene can fill me in, or maybe it's a stale joke by now. In either case, I'm happy to see you here.

Be well my friend, Deborah

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:00:00 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: emails are bouncing again ...
Message:
That was a tangent - if you read my first post again, you'll realize that I was talking about a section of the first page at the 'please consider this' site. If it was confusing, it is because my italic and bold got extended to my comments on it.

Love,

Anna

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:51:42 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hey S and S! Is this about me?! ;)
Message:
from their intro page ...

Over the past few years, we've noticed an increasing presence on the web of people who clearly consider themselves 'anti-Maharaji,' generally either former students of his, or people who feel that the idea of a master or teacher any master or teacher is suspect.

As far as I know I'm the only non-anything who has posted much on this topic at F5 and particularly at LG with DavidJ. Who would EVER have a problem with the idea of a teacher (or most 'speakers' for that matter)? They really make themselves look pathetically ridiculous with this line. Fudging, twisting, distorting and double-talking to the extreme. That discussion with DavidJ almost ended my conversation with him, but it was a few other straws that broke it for good.

Hugs to you both,

Anna

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:06:06 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Hey S and S! Is this about me?! ;)
Message:
Looks like it.

You are famous now. be carfull that cacas my add you to thier list:)

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:17:59 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: At least ...
Message:
At least I'd be in good company! ;)
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:31:06 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: At least ...
Message:
No bull })
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:37:11 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Not even a friendly butt/ramming?!!!!
Message:
(for old time's sake? Take that! }) And that! }) And all of these!!! })})})})})})})})})})})})})}) (and that's a gnu, remember?)

Okay, that's enough ... I'm going to bed now!

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:57:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: keep going Salam
Message:
Too funny! I thought of telling him the same thing. Sorry about the title of the subject line. I found it on LG and posted the info here before I had read any of the site. I can't get past the first page.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:05:33 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: the title's great
Message:
Sort of a left-handed complement. I thought it was intentional :)
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:37:55 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: the title's great
Message:
and they are using one of these scam counters too. you know it counts everything, they willl be 37000 in no time before the merge with someone. sheesh.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:05:45 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: All
Subject: San Francisco Memorial Services
Message:
I just returned home from a memorial service for all who died and were lost last Tuesday in NY, Pennsylvania, and at the Pentagon. This was billed as a way for San Franciscans to join together as a city to share our grief, and remember those who died. It was held in the Bill Graham Auditorium in the Civic Center -- right across from City Hall. The place was packed to the rafters, and there was a large crowd outside who were unable to get in.

The service was opened by a Muslim cleric saying a prayer in Arabic. He was followed by a Rabbi from one of the local temples. On the stage were the Mayor, both California senators, the governor, prominent local clergy members, and governmental leaders. One area right in front of the stage seemed to be designated for members of the Muslim communities.

Although there was some saber rattling, the message echoed by most of the speakers was that San Francisco is a place of tolerance and understanding, and that we should extend ourselves to our Middle Eastern neighbors at this time, and condemn violence against them.

Senators Boxer and Feinstein gave awards to representatives of the families of Thomas Glick and Mark Bingham, 2 of the people who are credited with having brought down the United flight in Pennsylvania, thwarting the terrorists' plans. Mark Bingham's award was received by his partner -- I did not catch his name. He gave a heart-rending speech about Mark, and his heroism. The speeches by these folks were the ones which affected me the most.

There was just as much talk about peace as about war, even here in leftist San Francisco.

I worry about the times in front of us.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:54:28 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Mark Bingham's partner
Message:
......walked out during the sermon by some silly bugger in bright orange religious drag when the preacher was applauded for asking what America had done to bring this on ourselves. Who was that?

Binghams' partner was interviewed afterwards and he was very upset and felt that it was inappropriate. I guess he felt insulted that his lover had given his life to crash the plane in an empty field rather than a populated building.

Did you hear about the Sikh who was murdered in Mesa, Arizona because some asshole white trash thought he was a Muslim? I'm glad I live in San Fransisco.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:15:23 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: San Francisco Memorial Services
Message:
Hi Marianne,
I caught the speech by the young Muslim woman (on TV) at the SF event. It was very moving. I gather she wouldn't have been able to speak like that in Afghanistan.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:07:32 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks, Marianne - and something to read for all
Message:
Thanks, Marianne -
I don't usually even read 'forwards', but my mom sent me this (I know you'll appreciate the irony, but this has brought us closer together - which can't be bad!) I work with several people from the Middle East, and I have just been trying to be really nice to them, but this gave me more ideas about talking about the situation - and giving them help if they are harassed.

Love,
Katie

Forwarded message:

Dear Americans,

I stopped for gas yesterday at my usual service station. It was unusual to find all of the pumps available, but I didn't think much of it until I went inside to pay my bill. Then it dawned on me - the owner is an Arab. Every time I have been there he and another swarthy man have been engaged in animated conversation in a language so foreign to me that I am unable to decipher even an isolated word, but yesterday he was alone.

He has never been particularly friendly during our transactions, but rather aloof and abrupt. No small talk. No cheery, 'Have a nice day.' Just a small business owner doing his job.

In light of Tuesday's events and the concerns of backlash targeting innocent people, I made a conscious and insistent effort to engage him in conversation. He was not inclined to answer my questions, clearly suspicious of my motives. Finally I related to him that I had spent 3 months traveling over land across the Middle East and would never forget an incident that occurred in Baghdad.

It was an incredibly hot day - 120 degrees F, I was later told - and so arid that body fluids were sucked out of pores so aggressively that sweat never formed, so one did not even notice the loss. I had run out of water and was unaware of the severity of my escalating dehydration and hyperthermia, only of the pounding headache that was fogging my mind. While crossing a major road in the heart of the city, I lost consciousness and crumpled to the pavement. The next thing I knew I was seated on a bench, propped up on both sides by passersby, and a man was holding a bottle of lemonade to my mouth, encouraging me to drink. These Iraquis could not have been more kind or solicitous if they had been my own family. More drinks arrived for me. One was a glass of water, but the fellow who had apparently carried me from the
street pushed it away, conveying to me that this water would not be safe for me to drink. They would not allow me to compensate them for what they had spent on my behalf, though they were clearly people who did not have money to spare.

This incident occurred prior to the Persian Gulf War. During the bombing of Baghdad my thoughts dwelled on the individuals who had been so kind to me, hoping that they, their families, and decent human beings like them were safe from harm. But throughout those days I knew that they were all enduring horror they did not deserve.

The demeanor of the service station owner underwent a noticeable change. He finally confided that his business has fallen off sharply and that his family, while not receiving overt threats, are being treated with thinly disguised hostility and distrust. They are afraid for their long-term safety and livelihood.

I assured the man that I would continue to patronize his establishment and would encourage others to do so. I gave him my name and phone number in case he and his family need help. I will check in on him weekly and will do whatever I can to support them.

The point of this letter is to urge that while we mobilize to vanquish
terrorism, we do not simultaneously become terrorists ourselves. It is not enough to avoid being cruel, leaving those at risk vulnerable to those who are vindictive. We must, as individuals, take action and seize the opportunity to befriend and protect people around us who are likely to be unfairly targeted by ignorance and bigotry. This is a superb opportunity for all of us to educate ourselves about cultures and beliefs we know little about - Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and others. What ARE the teachings of the Koran? How many of us know?

Resist the temptation to criticize cultures that 'create' monsters like the ones who perpetrated this week's bombings. Our own culture has suckled more than its share of monsters - Charles Manson, Richard Speck, Jeffrey Dahmer, Tim McVeigh - the list is long. Remember that evil is not a cultural attribute, but a behavioral choice made by individuals.

Also resist the temptation to promote your spiritual beliefs as superior. To do so would be the most profound manifestation of disrespect and the kind of insolence that contributed to the climate
resulting in the current situation. Be open to the value of new thoughts and ideas.

My hope is that everyone who reads this message will seek out and befriend an individual or a family of Middle Eastern origin or descent. The years ahead promise to be frightening for all of us. Being at war with a vague, undefined enemy means being fearful of everyone. Give yourself the gift of understanding who is NOT your enemy.

Respectfully,

Dr. Sherie Zahn

If you believe this message to be of value, please pass it on.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:47:41 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks Marianne
Message:
I heard about the memorial, but I wasn't able to go. I guess Bingham called his mother and said he and some other passengers were going to 'do something' because they were going to die anyway. I guess they did. I have heard conflicting statements that the plane was bound for Camp David, the Capitol and the White House. (No one has mentioned Air Force One, except Ari Fletcher, the Bush's Press Secretary).
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:02:24 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: how they decided to do it
Message:
i understand that after the passengers learned from one of the cell phone calls that they were the 4th of the hijackings taking place, and what the aim of their captors must have been, they PUT IT TO A VOTE, what to do about it next.

what does that tell you about how deep and how fair it goes?

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:14:51 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: San Francisco Memorial Services
Message:
Hi Marianne,
Last week my sister had a dinner for her freinds, a couple and thier
2 little girls, coincidentally the 2 girls were the same age and long time best freinds of my nieces, I have certainly heard about -Zoey-
from my niece more than a few times.
The next day they boarded the plane for Australia for thier vacation.
That was the reason for the dinner, to bon voyage them.
It was the plane that went into the Pentagon.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:04:51 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Sympathies, Bill
Message:
I also heard on NPR that there were three teachers and three students traveling from DC to California to do some kind of maring biology study who were on that flight. Sometimes there just isn't anything you can say.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:41:48 (EDT)
From: Chris Hafey
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: San Francisco Memorial Services
Message:
I'm so sorry, Bill.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:44:04 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: San Francisco Memorial Services
Message:
Bill, i'm so sorry to hear that story. I can't imagine what that must be like for your nieces. This hits close to home for me.

My condolences to your nieces. So sad :(

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:42:01 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: San Francisco Memorial Services
Message:
that is so sad to hear, am really sorry.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:00:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: God, Bill, sorry to hear that
Message:
Sad, Bill. Sad indeed.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:07:30 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Oh geez bill!
Message:
That is just awful! I am so sorry for your sister, her kids, the family that was lost. I feel such a sense of loss even though I do not know anyone who died.

I will keep all these folks in my thoughts.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:39:33 (EDT)
From: bill-thanks all,
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: close or far, we are all affected big time. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 17:46:04 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 1 Astologer said 11 + 24 Sept = trouble
Message:
but I dont want to talk about it.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:10:02 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: yeah you do.
Message:
zelda its cruel to us to pop a thing like that up on the board and then clam up and deny us any way to examine it--for ourselves or to help you handle it.

a link would help. a synopsis of what they said would help.

either say nothing, or at least give us enough to go on, please? this is a place to communicate. remember?

and relevant to your note--
all you guys with pcs running windows should go back and recheck your machines for the sircam virus and worm before october gets here.
remember--
'my documents' file.
the recycle bin
the exe drive

it checks the date every day, and when it hits the target date in october, its set to either overwrite or delete your entire hard drive.

looking back from now, it may well be cyberterrorism to cripple the greater part of the pc using world.
like, say, the us govt.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:31:59 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Re: 1 Astologer said 11 + 24 Sept = trouble
Message:
what about the 17th, the world was supposed to end according to some big rock in Egypt?

Well Nostrodamous fucked up real bad.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 20:45:53 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Re: 1 Astologer said 11 + 24 Sept = trouble
Message:
Well, I agree. If the 35th of September ever rolls around we're in real trouble.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:18:06 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: LOL :) nt
Message:
hahahahaha
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:37:33 (EDT)
From: George Carlin
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: 1 Astologer said 11 + 24 Sept = trouble
Message:
There will however, due to astrological alingment and a correction factor to be deployed in the current calender, be two consecutive tuesdays next week. That's correct. Next week will begin on Monday and be followed by Tuesday, another Tuesday and then Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Once the six day work week is complete, we will go back to regularly scheduled programming. Just a small glich in the calender. Not to be seen again for another 2001 years.

Cheers, The Hippie Dippie Weather Man

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:09:12 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: I HATE predictive astrology (Hi Zelda) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:00:44 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Cute, Zelda
Message:
But let's not talk about it.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:00:27 (EDT)
From: bill-christ zelda,
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: There is trouble in my life EVERYDAY [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:50:51 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: bill-christ zelda,
Subject: oops. The 'other' kind . NT
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:06:50 (EDT)
From: Extra! Extra! Read all about it!
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New cult apologist website
Message:
Authored by:

David Andersen
Erika Andersen
Mitch Ditkoff
Bob Johnson
[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:08:21 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Extra! Extra! Read all about it!
Subject: This is a fine way to get good seats at the events (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:52:25 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: LOL - you said it all, Brian
Message:
''Oh, please, please, daddy, look at me. Please pretty please. I'm a good boy. Now will you love me?''

It would be so funny if it were not so sad.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:24:29 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Extra! Extra! Read all about it!
Subject: Wasting my time? I hope not.
Message:
I've written to their feedback address asking them to tell me what are the inaccuracies on EPO and to provide a link on their site to EPO so that readers can make up their own minds.

I said that Erika and David seemed reasonable people when they posted on the ex-premie forum so I hoped that my request will be treated with respect.

John.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:15:18 (EDT)
From: suedoula
Email: None
To: Extra! Extra! Read all about it!
Subject: Re: New cult apologist website
Message:
Wow -- I have been wondering where Erika and David have been! I lived with Erika in the Atlanta ashram for several years back in the middle 70s. David and his then wife lived across from me in an apartment complex I lived in before I moved in to the Ashram. For what it's worth, in my premie life, I loved them both. Is that ok to admit here?
Life is so odd where it takes you, isn't it? I feel so very far away from all that, maybe it was just a dream.

When I stopped considering myself a follower of M it was because I couldn't justify in my mind that all I had been told of who M was wasn't true. I couldn't turn it off and I couldn't understand why all of a sudden the rules had changed on me. Despite the fact the I had lost so many productive years of my life, I don't remember feeling anger -- I just picked up and moved on. Maybe it was because I had been stepping out of Ashram life a little at a time before I physically moved out. Then life on the outside presented me with so many other options and challenges that I barely noticed how far away I had managed to get without missing anything. Before I knew it, it wasn't a part of my life and I didn't give too much of a backwards glance. I admit that I have regrets and anger these days -- much further away from it than I was at the true moment of departure -- but because time has passed and I have gotten on with things, it's not something I think of too often.

But I am digressing from why I wanted to post on this -- one of the reasons I don't feel my life as a premie was a total waste was all those people I came to know and love in the various communities I lived in. Maybe I should be angry and resentful of them as well but I think of so many of them often, fondly, and wonder where they are and what path has life presented to them. It is still a small world and maybe I will meet some of them again.

So, anyway, thanks for the link -- maybe it gave me a little closure.

Best to all,
Susan

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:49:57 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: suedoula
Subject: Experiences differed
Message:
Hi suedoula. Of course it's fine to say here that there were some really valuable aspects to your experiences with knowledge, premies, the ashram, etc. Many of us still have cherished premie friends, fond memories of positive experiences with knowledge, the ashram, and our communities.

I left the cult in 1976 and never looked back. It was a hard decision, and I felt incredibly guilty when I did it after all the conditioning we had been given about the consequences of giving up the grace of the guru. I built a life for myself and more or less put it out of my mind til I worked as a defense lawyer on the Jonestown case involving Peoples Temple. The more I learned about how Peoples Temple operated, the more it sounded like DLM.

I next heard of Maharaji a couple of years ago when I learned of this site. What I have learned here about what happened to the ashram residents, with Jagdeo, how Maharaji accumulated even more wealth and property from premie labor and donations, and that he now denied the history of the organization that gave him this wealth, opulence and power, made me me become involved here. I re-evaluated my own experiences and saw them more clearly. My journey reflects the positive and the negative. I see them both, but I also feel compelled to shine the light of truth on the revisionist and false history that is being promoted by Maharaji and others who seem to benefit from being around him.

I look forward to hearing more from you.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 21:05:48 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: suedoula
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Hi Susan,

I think it can be different for different people, and I don't think there is any certain 'way' that people deal with having been premies. I also have friends from my years as a premie, and I value them a lot. None of them are premies anymore, and it seems they hardly ever think about it. Most of us did go through a period of resentment and anger, however, but that passed.

Now, I don't get angry so much as I think it's more a sense of justice and bringing everything up to the surface. I would just like to see it ALL come out in the open, since so much of what Maharaji did and does is kept secret from people.

I never knew David, but I think I met him in Miami. I lived with Erika in the ashram in San Antonio, during a period which was particularly cult-like. About 150 of us lived in a hotel in downtown San Antonio, and we really looked and acted, in every sense of the word, like a cult.

Plus, I think the viewpoint of ex-premies is important, as is yours. I think it's helpful for people to hear what we have to say.

Thanks again.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 16:34:40 (EDT)
From: mercedes
Email: None
To: Extra! Extra! Read all about it!
Subject: sick
Message:
These people clearly don't care about what's going in the world right now. All they can think about is their guru how sick is that?
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:18:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Extra! Extra! Read all about it!
Subject: Typical fluff, not even worth reading
Message:
This is getting old already. The cult members puttting up these pathetic sites but afraid to openly discuss their opinions. So we have the ridiculousness of Erika Andersen, for example, writing a post called 'Just the facts .. sort of'.

Yawn ...

I can assure this crew that this kind of effort speaks volumes but not to say what they think it says. Hardly. Fact is, Maharaji's cult is falling apart. Sadly, I think the Islamic extremist jihad is going to have a further harsh effect on recruitment.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:42:22 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Same silly nonsense
Message:
All the bad stuff about Maharaji being God, worship and total deveotion and all, just sort of 'happened' and Maharaji had nothing to do with it, according to the implications of the Andersen twins and Mr. Ditkoff. Amazing. You know, that Hindu stuff just sort of 'happened' or was caused by US in our youthful zeal. How many times, ad nauseum, have we heard this implication, once again without actually saying it, because, well, that would be an out and out lie, before? Too many to count, I'm afraid. I just wish there could be something to add to the conversation by what these people are saying, except to just repeat the same old, tired, empty, excuses and rationalizations.

Plus, everybody they know came through the Lord of the Universe Ashram period just fine, so, hey, what's the problem? I mean, they say they came out okay, right? Manipulative theories and evidence, to be sure, and apparently no need to address what happened to others who didn't fare so well.

And as for Maharaji having sex with his female followers, well, according to Ms. Andersen, that's just a little marital problem, and we have all probably have had them. No big deal that Maharaji is a supposed holy man, worshipped by his followers at the time he was having sex with them. I mean, Bill Clinton had marital problems, too.

I do appreciate Erika's comment that Maharaji 'should' say something about how he screwed up the ashram situation. That's unusual for a premie to say anything like that, but she continues in her manipulative comments, saying that since people might not 'accept' his apology, that he probably is justified in not giving it. Of course, as we all know, apologies are only required, from regular, responsible adults that is, if you know in advance it will be accepted. Everybody knows that. I hope that isn't what Erika teaches to her kids.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:31:18 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: well it convinced me...
Message:
Thank gawd the door is always open. It's back to the lotus toes for me!

Now I got this from my new favortite website and I want all you to complete the following asignment, class.

PleaseConsiderThis.com invites you to share your thoughts and feelings in 100 words or less about the following question:

'What negative allegations being made about Maharaji and Knowledge do you most disagree with and why?'

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:28:46 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Typical fluff, not even worth reading
Message:
I couldn't get past the first page when I saw it on LG. Too silly.
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:09:38 (EDT)
From: Oopsy daisy
Email: None
To: Extra! Extra! Read all about it!
Subject: Here's the link [nt]
Message:

[ Cult Apologists ]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 02:00:32 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Oopsy daisy
Subject: Re: Here's the link
Message:
Maybe they just want M to read their accolades and see their pictures so they too can have a chance of becoming pams, n'est pas?
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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 18:05:36 (EDT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Oopsy daisy
Subject: How embarrassing
Message:
I can't believe they would write those things. They are so transparent and ridiculous. I particularly love the way Erika explains things in her smarmy "reasonable" tone. She uses her kids and her marriage as examples that are just so reasonable and simple, metaphors for how Maharaji and knowledge are, just like the way Erika did when she gave satsang years ago, and it sounds just as ridiculous. So little has changed. We can all do it:

Things evolve. You know, my relationship with my dining room funiture isn't the same today as it was 30 years ago. Then, I thought it was wonderful, all-powerful, and capable of bringing me eternal happiness. I loved my furniture as my savior. But, of course, relationships change; they evolve. Sometimes, now, I think how silly I was to think those things about my furniture, but I loved it and I was having a wonderful time sitting on the glorious, and supremely all-powerful side chairs.

But now, I love my furniture more than ever, and I love it especially because my relationship with it has evolved, so that now I think my furniture is so much better than if it was really bringing peace to the world like the label said when I bought it. I know and love it more. I'm not sorry I bought the furniture, nor that I believed it was the messiah. Isn't it just silly of people who want to hold their dining room furniture to the standards of 30 years ago?

So what does this have to do with Maharaji? In the same way that I still love my dining room furniture, and have evolved in my relationship to it, my relationship with Maharaji has also evolved. Just forget about all that stuff he said about being the superior power in person, rotting vegetables, the ashram and devotion and surrender and the decade or so you wasted living poor and celibate in his ashram pursuing that because he told you to, and you listened and did it because you believed he was the messiah. If it had any negative effect on your life because you believed what he said, it's all because it was all just so confusing then, and I don't want to get into the specifics, because, well, it's confusing to me, and it's just part of natural evolution, just like my relationship with my side board.

So, in contrast to what all those ex-owners of dining room furniture have said, the ones who didn't evolve, I really want to give the other side of the story. And I'm sure you are very impressed with how reasonable, non-cult-like, and insightful I am, and with my ability to use simile and metaphor to explain-away the many things Maharaji did and said that made us believe he was god. And I'm sure you're especially impressed with this coming from someone like me, who is a happy and successful wife and mother, not to mention fantastically successful in business, smart, happy and interesting, living a storybook life, all of which I have repeated on many occasions on the Forum and now on my new website, so you should know well.

Erika (the reasonable person and who apparently didn't get any answers from Maharaji about his drinking, sexual exploitation and the like, but she still loves him) Andersen

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 23:52:25 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Very Funny Post })
Message:
It's a joke right? I thought it was a funny joke until I went to Timmi's post down below and I'm now i'm not sure whose joking.

this has to be ajoke. Yeah! Of course.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 19:25:12 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Re: How embarrassing
Message:
''So what does this have to do with Maharaji? In the same way that I still love my dining room furniture, and have evolved in my relationship to it, my relationship with Maharaji has also evolved. Just forget about all that stuff he said about being the superior power in person, rotting vegetables, the ashram and devotion and surrender and the decade or so you wasted living poor and celibate in his ashram pursuing that because he told you to, and you listened and did it because you believed he was the messiah. If it had any negative effect on your life because you believed what he said, it's all because it was all just so confusing then, and I don't want to get into the specifics, because, well, it's confusing to me, and it's just part of natural evolution, just like my relationship with my side board.

So, in contrast to what all those ex-owners of dining room furniture have said, the ones who didn't evolve, I really want to give the other side of the story. And I'm sure you are very impressed with how reasonable, non-cult-like, and insightful I am, and with my ability to use simile and metaphor to explain-away the many things Maharaji did and said that made us believe he was god. And I'm sure you're especially impressed with this coming from someone like me, who is a happy and successful wife and mother, not to mention fantastically successful in business, smart, happy and interesting, living a storybook life, all of which I have repeated on many occasions on the Forum and now on my new website, so you should know well. ''

Wow. I hope this person was on some serious drugs when she wrote that and not like this all the time. She has to be kidding. Are these people for real? Don't they know what fools they appear? Good grief. This is a bit sick.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 22:33:52 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: I thought so too, Timmi
Message:
Most of the ordinary premies that I know would not dream of making an anti-ex website or even posting here. The ones who do these things really are cult apologists and sound completely nuts most of the time.

If ordinary people who are not in a cult (like us and the rest of humanity) cannot make sense of what she is saying, isn't that a symptom that she's not thinking logically enough to communicate with ordinary people? It isn't common sense. It's really weirdly convoluted stuff but I guess other Premies understand it.

I don't think these people will realize that they are in a cult of the mind until they see that other's cannot understand what they are trying to say. They're so childish. Maybe you need to exercise that sore tongue of yours and give them a tongue-lashing.

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Date: Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 15:59:03 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: Oopsy daisy
Subject: It's fucking HILARIOUS
Message:
And the funniest part is the authors somehow think they are going to shore up the shaky faithful or explain away the bizzareness of the whole thing to new fish. Ain't gonna happen kids.

Anything RawRat and his proxies do on the net dooms them to scrutiny which they can not stand. The EX sites, being far more popular and well read, are always right there in their faces.

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