Smoking Out -:- The Maharaji of Malibu -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:43:04 (EDT)

__ a0aji -:- :: smoke him out of his hole :: [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:29:53 (EDT)

Joe -:- Why I hate this insurance company -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:46:44 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- Re: Why I hate this insurance company -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:06:55 (EDT)

__ __ Joe -:- It's all about stock price -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:07:31 (EDT)

btdt -:- White House -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:25:10 (EDT)

__ cq -:- Try to get your letter in the press too(nt) -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:22:40 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- Re: White House -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:00:55 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- Re: White House -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:31:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: White House -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:44:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: White House -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:04:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I sent this to Bush -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:54:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- you mean to 'Dead or Alive' Bush? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:04:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: you mean to 'Dead or Alive' Bush? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:25:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I'm not anti-American, Pat, but Bush frightens me -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:37:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Non-Yanks powerlessness -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:00:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- the latest -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:31:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- and... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:36:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- The genrals have watched too many war movies -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:03:38 (EDT)

cq -:- The enemy within -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:32:02 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Fallwell apologised -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:37:17 (EDT)

Salam -:- Mind of a zealot -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:57:11 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Religious zealotry -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:42:45 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- DKA..Divine Kingdom of Amaroo [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:08:52 (EDT)

Silvia -:- TRUE? All gold and silver stored at the towers -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:48:05 (EDT)

__ Silvia -:- My Bet -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:53:37 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- Re: TRUE? All gold and silver stored at the towers -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:55:49 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- News here, disappeared under rubble duh! [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:28:56 (EDT)

__ __ Silvia -:- NOT SURE -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:17:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Your friend believes in conspiracy theories -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:00:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Who told you JM -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:51:16 (EDT)

btdt -:- Anyone else having...... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:54:19 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Re: Anyone else having...... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:06:55 (EDT)

Mel Bourne -:- Israeli WTC workers take day off on Tues 11th..... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 06:29:06 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- Ridiculous and Disgusting -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:34:32 (EDT)

__ Nigel -:- Good grief, Mel.. -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:27:27 (EDT)

__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Good grief, Mel.. -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:09:33 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Get lost, Mel -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:09:24 (EDT)

__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Get lost, Mel -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:42:57 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- Jim, -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:25:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Jim, gerry - I've watched this anonymouse -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:11:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Yes Pat -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:33:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Dermott, I remember Mel -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:48:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Jim, gerry - I've watched this anonymouse -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:14:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Yes, Gerry re Mel Bourne -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:20:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Jim, gerry - I've watched this anonymouse -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:25:16 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Re: Israeli WTC workers -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:52:21 (EDT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Strange thing about conspiracy theories -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:22:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Viennese Humor: Die Juden und die Radlfahrer -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:06:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Strange thing about conspiracy theories -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:58:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Deference? think your guess is wrong Scott -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:59:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Not a guess. -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:48:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I think we need the citations on this one -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:01:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- You asked for it. -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:56:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Re: Strange thing about conspiracy theories -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:37:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Strange thing about conspiracy theories -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:04:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Please clarify John T -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:25:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- And no frogs killed !! -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:46:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- No Latvians either. -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:01:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Re: And no frogs killed !! -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:59:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Waht about premies ? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:22:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: Waht about premies ? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:18:43 (EDT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Political Paranoia -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:21:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Political Paranoia -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:56:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Political Paranoia -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:13:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- the point -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:47:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: the point -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:21:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Paranoia hijacking politics? Or vice-versa? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:04:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Paranoia hijacking politics? Or vice-versa? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:26:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Political Paranoia -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:55:30 (EDT)

__ JohnT -:- Take it to 'Anything Goes' [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:47:56 (EDT)

__ Scott T. -:- TROLL ALERT [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:31:42 (EDT)

__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: TROLL ALERT -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:47:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Gerry, re TROLL ALERT -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:12:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Mel your post is empty, try again [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:48:54 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Major Update on the EV-DLM Papers download page -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 06:22:43 (EDT)

__ Trying () ) -:- Trying nt -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:09:19 (EDT)

__ __ Trying again -:- Re: Trying again -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:10:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ Try once more -:- Trying once more -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:11:53 (EDT)

Dermot -:- The coming war in Afghanistan -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 04:51:48 (EDT)

__ cq -:- Afghanistan not defeated since Alexander the Great -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:00:21 (EDT)

__ PatD -:- A Blast from the Past -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:01:18 (EDT)

__ toby -:- Are you ready for that? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:38:23 (EDT)

__ Amazing -:- amazing article, thanks. [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:15:36 (EDT)

__ JohnT -:- Nice one Dermot -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 08:42:55 (EDT)

__ Here's a link -:- to a D.C. Think Tank -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 06:11:18 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- Re: The coming war in Afghanistan -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 05:16:03 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- Re: The coming war in Afghanistan -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 08:43:51 (EDT)

Annie -:- Message to Deborah -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 04:42:28 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Re: Message to Deborah -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:17:49 (EDT)

__ Annie -:- what jihad is -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:12:04 (EDT)

__ __ Forum Janitor -:- I don't think I like you -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:03:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Re: I don't think I like you -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:58:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: I don't think I like you -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:12:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- OK, no prob, leave it to me -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:41:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ Annie -:- I don't think I know you. -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:26:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Forum Janitor -:- Re: I don't think I know you. -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:34:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Annie -:- thanks, and a question. -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:52:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Depends -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:01:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- A perfect example of passive aggression -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:04:19 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- commentary by an American born in Afghanistan -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 02:09:21 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Correction -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:34:45 (EDT)

__ __ such -:- re'know what you're talking about' -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:28:45 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- I've been there in 1968 -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 06:36:51 (EDT)

__ btdt -:- Re: commentary by an American born in Afghanistan -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 02:55:58 (EDT)

Michael Read -:- open letter to the terrorists -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 00:00:45 (EDT)

__ salam -:- are you serious? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:20:42 (EDT)

Victoria H. -:- Canadian tv commentator Gordon Sinclair -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:52:12 (EDT)

a0aji -:- Who's Who -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:21:39 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- swell bunch of fellows and gals, thanks (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:16:00 (EDT)

a0aji -:- The 'war can be avoided' fantasy -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:45:58 (EDT)

__ Scott T. -:- Read this -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:08:45 (EDT)

__ a0aji -:- Re: The 'war can be avoided' fantasy -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:59:26 (EDT)

Deputy Dog -:- Wow, not one comment about my message below! -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:42:20 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- Dog, at the risk of getting flamed -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:18:59 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- Throw a dog a bone -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:26:21 (EDT)

Chuck S. -:- A new website about Maharaji... -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:51:28 (EDT)

__ Francesca :C) -:- BRAVO! [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 01:05:43 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- His UGMug made my head spin ()) -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:54:30 (EDT)

__ __ Silvia -:- Hey!! Wait a minute -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:13:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- You like that one ()) -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:17:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- can I try ()) [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 05:45:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- ())())())())()) hahahahaha -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:21:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ trying -:- Re: ())())())())()) hahahahaha -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:17:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Try again -:- Re: ())())())())()) hooray -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:18:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ()) -:- ;)())())())())()) hooray -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:56:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ())())())())()) -:- Re: ;)())())())())()) hooray -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:13:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ())())())())()) -:- Re: ;)())())())())()) hooray -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:13:00 (EDT)

__ Silvia -:- Thanks Chuck -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:58:21 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- Excellent...just what's needed ...FA? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:09:58 (EDT)

__ __ Forum Janitor -:- Re: Excellent...just what's needed ...FA? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:18:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- That was FUNNY Gerry [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:56:34 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- ...but I still prefer your old website -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:06:49 (EDT)

__ __ saucy -:- gurus suck -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:42:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ salam -:- Mr Willams=Charles? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:03:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ How about... -:- Re: Mr Willams=David Anderson? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:11:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Suedoula -:- Re: Mr Willams=David Anderson? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:59:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- YES! Mr Willams=David Anderson? ~) -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:31:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ chas -:- Erika's 101 Reasons... -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:53:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Hey this is an excellent post -:- JM, *****Best Of***** -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:46:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ Disculta -:- Hey Chuck -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:49:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- M's websites... -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:06:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sure, here it is... -:- just click... -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:23:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Miss PWK -:- How did you like that pic, Piggybai Ji -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:51:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Piggybai Ji -:- Swooning -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:43:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Miss PWK -:- Dear Miss Piggybai -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:21:25 (EDT)

Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:43:04 (EDT) From: Smoking Out Email: None To: All Subject: The Maharaji of Malibu Message:

Oh my Guru Maharaj Ji(sorry, but that was the hypnotic suggestion you placed on your website), Anyways, now is the time your version of K should be most evident. Why isn't it? How can your followers HELP the world not your interests in this very perilous time? It's time to put up or shut up. Now, is not the time for you to hide in your divine rat hole nor for your followers to hide within. Now is the time for what your followers have learned to shine. It is not the time for them to distort your past on yet another non-interactive website. Now is the time to help save the world not hide from your murky past.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:29:53 (EDT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Smoking Out Subject: :: smoke him out of his hole :: [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:46:44 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: All Subject: Why I hate this insurance company Message:

In case anyone needed another reason to hate the insurer American International Group (AIG), AIG's president, Hank Greenberg is now calling for a procedure to deal with all World Trade Center liability claims through arbitration 'without involving juries'. I'm sure he only has the interests of the survivors at heart. Hank also says insurers expect to make the losses up within two years, and that AIG is likely to buy firms damaged by the attack. The word "vulture" comes to mind. Time to buy AIG stock? As an aside, AIG is one of the largest insurers in the USA and by far the most profitable. It has a well-deserved reputation of refusing to pay claims and forcing policyholders to go to court (at very great expense that many can't afford) to get them to meet their contractual obligations. I have been on the opposite side of them many times and can provide a number of notorious horror stories for anyone who is interested. So, Hank's comments go right in line with previous behavior. By the way, and not mentioned in Hank's recent statement, his brother, Jeff Greenberg, is CEO of Marsh, Inc., the world's largest insurance broker, which currently lists 313 of its employess as missing from its offices on floors 93-100 of WTC 1.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:06:55 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Why I hate this insurance company Message:

Most of the major news channels have been reporting that the all the major insurers are going to just pay the claims, even without a death certificate (which in this case could take many months). I'm surprised Hank Greenberg didn't wait a while to pull this rabbit out of his hat. In a few months, this wouldn't get that much air-time.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:07:31 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Rick Subject: It's all about stock price Message:

Hank is interested in puffing up the stock price of AIG. Insurers have been hit hard in the market in the past few days. I think that's why he is saying this. AIG isn't much of a life insurer, mostly property and casualty. By the way, Jeff Greenberg, the CEO of Marsh, is actually Hank's son and not his brother.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:25:10 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: All Subject: White House Message:

We don't all agree on this forum the best way to handle this terrible situation that is in the world right now, but I know we would all like it to end peacefully. If anyone cares to send the President a message, log on to the White House site, go to President Bush, scroll down and the e-mail connection is right there. This was scary for me to do but I felt I had to do, to try and make my voice heard. If you feel the same, it is quite easy to do. I don't think the president has an easy job before him, but I do think he holds many options. I also think he stands at a point in history when he can attempt to give peace a chance first. I know many of you won't agree with this. Maybe some of you will. Whatever your stance, let the White House know. There is much intelligence on this forum.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:22:40 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: btdt Subject: Try to get your letter in the press too(nt) Message:

Try to get your letter published in the press too. (Better chance of getting read, IMO).

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:00:55 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: White House Message:

What did you write to the White House? Give peace a chance? There has to be some form of negotiation for that to happen. Unfortunately, the bombings didn't come with a list of demands. Most sources say the network of terrorist cells involved in this, only want to destroy America. How about 'turn the other cheek'? Is that what you mean? Sadly, the other cheek is probably going to get whacked whether we turn it or not. I'm wondering if the real fallout from this won't be the economy. It's really the common denominator we're depending on at the end of the day. If the terrorists aim to destroy America, that's where the most bang for the terrorist buck is going to be. One more strike and we may be close to an economic depression. Killing off our entire poplulation won't happen. If the terrorists were to use any biological or nuclear weapons here, I'm certain we'll be nuking a dozen middle-eastern countries to oblivion. The scenario we're in now is really a crap-shoot. Dubya doesn't have the brains or skill to do much but keep his face steely. The smarter people around him are just flipping coins and hoping everything turns out alright. I think the most we hope for is good luck.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:31:35 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Rick Subject: Re: White House Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:44:09 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: White House Message:

I may not have the gift of prose or steely logic. I only wrote what means the most to me. If I could complile all the pros and cons of this forum, I'd vote for Such's suggestion. I don't know how old you are, what country you're from. I'm 48. I was 16 years old during the prime of Viet Nam. My father was recalled into active naval duty and sent to Adak, Alaska. As my mother and I were in the Anchorage airport waiting for the plane to take us to Adak, the naval base in the Aleutian islands, companies of very young men set in dead silence waiting to board their final flights to Viet Nam. Anchorage was the last American soil they were ging to see before facing their unkown future. They sat, stone quiet and scared to death. That same year, some months later, my father was sent to Oakland, Calif naval base hospital due to a serious car accident. This hospital was filled with capacity with Viet Nam vets. At sixteen, I got to spend many months visiting my father and watching these young men come with missing limbs, eyes, injuries too numberous to list. Emotionally, they were a wreck. The drug addiction was rampant. My most vivid memory is of a man with only a torso, racing down the hospital hills on a gurney with his pals pushing him. Maybe it's naive to think giving peace a chance is possible. But as much as I have never cared for Bush senior or junior, I think this man, for whatever reason, is in a position to make a big impact. They know he's not kidding and he holds the cards to give the Saudi's, Muslim's and Israeli's face saving outs. Laugh at me if you will, but I've seen first hand the before and after effects of war on human life.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:04:25 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: White House Message:

No, I'm not laughing at you at all. I'll be 49 in January. I'm just trying to point out some hard truths. Bush is a guy who was frying people in Texas before he became president. I find him simple and cold. The people in New York and Washington died terrible deaths. Their children and spouses are going to be suffering for a long time. Some of the families will never have closure because the bodies of their loved ones won't be found. The people cleaning up the mess at the WTC are also suffering; some of them undoubtedly will have post-traumatic stress syndrome. People want revenge or justice and don't realize there isn't any end to that. I understand what you're trying to say.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:54:56 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: btdt Subject: I sent this to Bush Message:

Food, Propaganda, Law Enforcement I am hoping that at least some of the war-chest will be spent on food bombs and propaganda. Pamphlets stuffed into food bombs offering huge rewards for info leading to the terrorists and then, rather than kill them, arrest them and bring them to trial. If they resist arrest send in the army to get them. That's not war. It's law enforcement. Request that CNN pick up the story about Cassell and Mercer, the two American women imprisoned unlawfully by the Taliban. Milk this human tragedy for all it's worth. Stir up the outrage and indignation of the civilized world against this atrocity. Warn the Taliban that if they are not released that we will come and get them and then do it. If they are still held captive illegally then remove their captives. This is not war it is law enforcement. Use CNN in the cities and food/pamphlet bombs in the countryside and blanket the mideast with the truth about the Taliban cult fanatics and what their insane plans will lead to. Warn the terrorists to surrender now and face trial or we will arrest them. If they resist arrest, take them by force. The same applies to all their aiders and abettors. This needs to be thought of as law enforcement not war. That word seems to bring the worst out of the toothless impotent old warmongers willing to use other peoples' kids for cannon fodder. Call it law enforcement, invest it with the righteousness of protecting civilization and democracy. But no deliberate killing just for the sake of revenge. Some killing may occur in the course of subduing those resisting arrest or in self-defense against criminals. Our first concern obviously will be for the safety of those law abiding citizens in whom we have vested the authority to enforce the laws of civilization in our name. And no killing as punishment for the crime after the trial. Sentence them to life imprisonment and throw away the key. But why should civilized people such as us stoop to killing like those who would destroy civilization? Killing is for barbarians like the terrorists. Civilized people can only kill with a clear conscience in self-defense or in the defense of loved ones such as Cassell and Mercer or in defense of our civil rights. Never in retaliation.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:04:28 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: you mean to 'Dead or Alive' Bush? Message:

Can I be forgiven for thinking he wants a return to the lawless old days of the wild west?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:25:50 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: you mean to 'Dead or Alive' Bush? Message:

Right now he's saying stuff to mollify the anger of Americans but cooler heads will prevail. He does not operate in isolation. I'm not a fan of his and despise the way he usurped his office but he is part of a team and the US really is a democracy. He has to listen to reason eventually or else he will be discredited. Right now Yanks are blowing off steam. Eventually we'll do whatever is good for business and that is not always a bad thing. It means making money to put kids through college and having fun - what most people want even in the Mid East.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:37:20 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: I'm not anti-American, Pat, but Bush frightens me Message:

Yes, I admit it, Bush frightens me. First it was 'war, war, war' against ... who could tell? (Bin Laden's own sister lives in London, so were we 'harbouring' a terrorist?) Which frightened me (and God knows how many others). Then he claimed it was 'good against evil'. (Bush? the one who quit the Kyoto agreement - good???) Now it's the 'beacon of freedom and democracy' calling for someone's head on a platter. Hmmmm .... pardon me if I choose to dissent? For instance, this just in: Is the US rethinking its chances re. Afghanistan? quote: The US has for the first time suggested more than one foreign power was behind last week's terrorist attacks. US attorney general John Ashcroft has said it was likely the terrorists behind the attacks received support from foreign governments and that it was too early to tell if surprise arrests in Michigan were a major break in the case. It is pretty clear that the networks that conduct these kind of events are harboured, supported, sustained and protected by a variety of foreign governments,' he said. 'It is time for those governments to understand with crystal clarity that the United States of America will not tolerate that kind of support for networks that would inflict this kind of damage on the American people.' endquote Full report: http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554399,00.html (thinks - weren't the IRA terrorists partially funded by donations primarily from New York? Or is the IRA a different kind of terrorist? (admittedly they usually give warnings of their bomb-attacks ... but terrorism is terrorism isn't it, Mr Bush?)

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:00:39 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: cq Subject: Non-Yanks powerlessness Message:

Perhaps some of the pessimism comes from not having a voice in American politics. Bush is an opportunistic politician. He executed criminals in Texas because that's what his constituency wanted. He is talking war because that's what Yanks want right now. But not all of us are gungho and the hoi-poloi screaming for blood right now will soon get bored with it and go back to watching Jerry Springfield on TV while the sane and sensible who really run the country as a team will prevail.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:31:10 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: the latest Message:

The latest is that the Taliban responded to the demand they turn over Bin Laden with a request to meet with Bush or the U.S. government. Bush said the time for talking is over.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:36:33 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Rick Subject: and... Message:

the name of this military operation has been dubbed by the U.S. government as 'Operation Infinite Justice'. Sounds like a Hollywood movie.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:03:38 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Rick Subject: The genrals have watched too many war movies Message:

I agree it is sickening but common sense will prevail It always does eventually in the US. People listen to each other and argue and blow off hot air but in the end most people have got kids and don't want them shipped home in body bags. Since Vietnam most sane Yanks have no taste for war.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:32:02 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: All Subject: The enemy within Message:

America - the enemy within quote: The cruellest, sickest response to the calamity of September 11 has come from an unexpected quarter. Not from America's traditional enemies, but from within. Voiced not by Muslim radicals consumed with hatred for the Great Satan, but by two self-styled American super-patriots. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, the grand old men of America's Christian right, were swift to tell Americans who was to blame. 'The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked,' Falwell, onetime leader of the Moral Majority, told Robertson as they sat together on the latter's Christian Broadcasting Network. 'I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and lesbians... I point the finger in their face and say: 'You helped this happen'.' endquote Full report at http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554292,00.html

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:37:17 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: cq Subject: Fallwell apologised Message:

Yes, with loony fundamentalists like that who needs Osama hasn't bin laid in years? Falwell may be a nut (Tinky-winky is gay because he is purple) but he usually does not hesitate to eat humble pie. Robertson on the other hand is quite insane and bloody scary.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:57:11 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: All Subject: Mind of a zealot Message:

Pakistan's jihad One thing I agree with Jim in his post few days ago about religion, it's poison. I just can't understand why those people are mixing donkies and horses together. Looks like those people live at a time different from us. I saw a documentry today about Mujahideen recrutment agencies, they have something like a Mujahedeen day, where all the village people comes out cheering and justling and the suicide bombers with explosives rapped around their bodies are paraded. Unbelievable shit. They have so many people enlisting that they have to turn them down. By the end of the parade all the crowed makes an oath to sacrifice themselves. it's like one of those Nazi parades where the speakers are blasting away, the air is electric and everyone is turned into a zoombie. Something out of a nightmare.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:42:45 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Salam Subject: Religious zealotry Message:

Yes, it is scary. Especially when a nation is run by religion and is not secular. The fucked up American fundamentalists want Jehovah in the White house too or at least Ayatollah Robertson on the Supreme Court. Can you imagine if Rawat ruled a country? No, I don't want to. I prefer getting a good night's sleep to thinking about nightmares like that.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:08:52 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: DKA..Divine Kingdom of Amaroo [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:48:05 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: All Subject: TRUE? All gold and silver stored at the towers Message:

dissapeared? A friend heard it on the news but nothing have been said after that one time. After the attack the gold and silver appeared missing. does anyone knows about it? Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:53:37 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Silvia Subject: My Bet Message:

Apparently it was removed before the attack. sorry for the confussion. ;())

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:55:49 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Re: TRUE? All gold and silver stored at the towers Message:

The Comex precious metal exchange was housed in the WTC, and there was 12 tons of gold stored in the basement. Obviously it is still there, and they'll find it eventually. This is common knowledge, not a conspiracy theory and there is nothing suspicious about the fact that the gold exchange was warehousing gold in the building. Saying it has 'disappeared' well, I haven't heard that, but I don't see how that is possible unless it was removed before the destruction. How could anyone even know if it was gone with all that rubble on top of the basement?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:28:56 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: gerry Subject: News here, disappeared under rubble duh! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:17:28 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: gerry Subject: NOT SURE Message:

Mu friend said that she heard only the last part of the news and I asked the same. But she believes she heard the gold/silver was removed before the attack. Please, if you find anything about this inform me. Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:00:59 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Your friend believes in conspiracy theories Message:

That's all. And I wonder why YOU believe in this ! There are 1000s of tons of concrete on top of all this. I guess hundreds of such theories will fly before the ruins are cleared.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:51:16 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Who told you JM Message:

I believe it? I am simply asking, and so is she. As I explained she only heard the end of the news and I am curipous to know. You didn't read my post properly. ())

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:54:19 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: All Subject: Anyone else having...... Message:

trouble sleeping these days? Not wanting their kids go to school? Not wanting to be out in public places?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:06:55 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: Anyone else having...... Message:

yes, i never sleep, eat or do other things, but that was before. Now i just don't sleep, eat or do other things.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 06:29:06 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: All Subject: Israeli WTC workers take day off on Tues 11th..... Message:

Or so the Pakistani press thinks. Interesting, but true or false? Mel [ A new passover? ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:34:32 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Ridiculous and Disgusting Message:

Mel, I wish you wouldn't spread around garbage like that. It really isn't helpful at a time like this.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:27:27 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Mel Bourne Subject: Good grief, Mel.. Message:

You sound like you're willing to give this absurd and disgusting nonsense the time of day. Or at least half-willing to. (Funny, but I seem to remember you requiring altogether more rigorous standards of evidence when, say, accepting that Jagdeo was a pedophile. A couple of years back I remember you referred to such posts as 'libellous' - even though the evidence was already strong. Well that's all water under the bridge, I guess.) But the flakiness of this uncorroborated - and clearly invented -story is obvious, and the most vile suggestion is the implication that 4000 Israelis would stay off work, knowing the WTC was about to be attacked, without alerting work colleagues or the authorities. Like I said, truly disgusting.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:09:33 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: Good grief, Mel.. Message:

Nigel Sure the figures are prepostorous, but apparently Shabak has high level infiltration into middle eastern extremist groups, which, if true, certainly makes prior knowledge of the attack possible. Mel

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:09:24 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Get lost, Mel Message:

Funny, all those forum discussions over the last couple of years, times when you would trot out your disingenuous moral concerns. You always were a worm, Mel. Too bad you couldn't have been in the WTC September 11th. Yeah, that's right.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:42:57 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Get lost, Mel Message:

C'mon Jim, what's wrong, an alernative point of view too confronting for you? Mel

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:25:44 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, Message:

Even I didn't bite at that one. If four thousand people were told not to go to the WTC wouldn't be reasonable to assume at least one would sound the alarm? Amazing little piece of state sponsored propaganda (pakistani that is.) Did you get my email?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:11:36 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: gerry Subject: Jim, gerry - I've watched this anonymouse Message:

over the past week jumping here and posting away in a frenzy and stopped reading its posts after the second one had that smarmy tone. Could you fill me in on Mel's history here. Is he simply one of the many incarnations of David Roupell that have been used over the past four years? Or is that too ''conspiracy theory'' for you?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:33:49 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Yes Pat Message:

I agree with Gerry. Mels not in the same category of some of those famous trolls you know so well :)I wouldn't really call him a troll. Of course I don't agree with him completely on everything (but then do I agree with anyone on everything?) but I don't think he should be hounded out or made to feel unwelcome. He's ok I think. Surprised you don't remember him anyway.....I think he wrote a good, caring about post re the Jagdeo issue if my memoery serves me well. Along with other reasonable stuff.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:48:09 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Dermott, I remember Mel Message:

I do remember Mel's post about Jagdeo. I just don't know what he was like before I arrived 9 months ago. Lately I've been having run-ins with other Oz premies and am a bit touchy because they change their tunes and names so fast. Also this anti-semitic post of his really was unnecessary nonsense.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:14:22 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Jim, gerry - I've watched this anonymouse Message:

Mel's OK. He's coming around. In fact I think he's close to exiting. He's a social worker in OZ with obvious compassion for his clientele, which I believe are the native Australians. He's definitely not Roupell. Maybe you should know I treated him poorly in my less than compassionate days, a few lifetimes ago. I've evolved since then, really.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:20:14 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: gerry Subject: Yes, Gerry re Mel Bourne Message:

I have always enjoyed his posts in the past but the political stuff of course has polarised a lot of us. (I notice you didn't comment on my warmongering post - Food, propaganda, law enforcement.) And I absolutely hated this thread that he started. I may be unhappy with Zionism but I am definitely not pro-Muslim. In fact I just wish all the religious zealotry would disappear.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:25:16 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Jim, gerry - I've watched this anonymouse Message:

Pat Why don't you read the archives for yourself, Jim's opinion is obviously going to be biased! Mel

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:52:21 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Re: Israeli WTC workers Message:

After WTC, conspiracy theories abound

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:22:37 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: salam Subject: Strange thing about conspiracy theories Message:

They don't have much impact in Europe .... Typical of some countries. Nobody will be bothered even one second here reading something like this. Why ?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:06:00 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Viennese Humor: Die Juden und die Radlfahrer Message:

The following is re-posted from the Usenet group rec.sport.rowing: Two men are sitting in a cafe discussing politics. One finally asks the other: 'do you know who is at fault for all the troubles in the world?' The second man asks: 'Who?' The first man responds: 'The Jews! The Jews... and the bicycle riders!' The second man, astonished, asks the first: 'The bicycle riders?!?! Why the bicycle riders?' The first shrugs his shoulders: 'Why the Jews?' 'Die Juden und die Radlfahrer' was always a buzz-phrase in my house. I remember as a child never understanding that joke. I used to ask my father 'why the bicycle riders?' In response, he'd just tell the joke again. Then one day I understood. Servus, Nick. Charles Ehrlich Zurich, Switzerland --

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:58:55 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Strange thing about conspiracy theories Message:

JM: My guess is that European countries have a built in deference to authority not found in North America (at least not to the same degree). It's just a guess though, but if true I'd expect less susceptability to conspiracy theories in Canada than the US, although there's that intervening variable of the Quebecois. Deference explains a lot more than people realize. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:59:36 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Deference? think your guess is wrong Scott Message:

Scott. Perhaps the English (not Irish, welsh, scots) were deferent once but no longer. And the French deferent???? You must be kidding yeah? Look at the demonstartions and campaigns undertaken over the last 40 years in US compared to Europe but discount Vietnam because that was a very unique event. You'll find untold lack of deference in Europe (UK,Italy, Germany France etc etc).!! You'll also find a much broader, vital political environment too. An environment where the greens , commies and other diverse parties have a VOICE. Not a loud voice by any means but louder than in America. No once again I'm sorry to pop your illusion of your wonderful counrtry but the deference (where it really matters that is) lies more on your shores. Two super funded capatilist parties (like Britain you essentially have a 'one party' state ...one day it's called Democrat/Labour next day Rep/Tory ....of course there are differences between the parties but not in any radical way at all....I suppose Britain does have the Lib Dems as a rising third force) So I think Scott your society is the more deferent. Deferent to the media/political parties. Why else would you have no decent public health care ? No decent employee rights? and for large swathes of your country ....such extreme poverty/ under education. Could it be because the American people don't look to Europe and see how good the healthcare is in comparison etc and just deferentially accept the state of things? Total capitalism. Now I'm all for capaitalism as a matter of fact but not rabid capitalism. Scott if the Bush election fiasco had happened in Europe I don't think the Eurpoeans would have been as deferential as the Americans. By the way, I'm observing and responding here. You're perfectly entitled to your view....I've no qualms about that whatsoever.....but Scott, you do come out with some whacky stuff sometimes. And please don't label me 'Anti - American ' because you know what? I'm not. I like America and Americans.Friends can honestly criticise though , yeah? Recently the term 'anti-American' is taking on the same resonace as ' Anti-semetic' ie valid or at least debatable criticism is lumped in with the extremely hateful criticism and classsed as 'Anti-whatever'. Lets hope it doesn't turn from 'anti-American' jibes to Mcarthyist 'Un-American' jibe then your fellow of political paranoia will have a field day !! Im as critical about America, Israel etc etc as I am about my birthplace. That's healthy I think. Doesn't mean I'm out and out 'anti'. Cheers Scott .......sorry if I've rambled a bit here. Ha ha it seems a lot of what you say I disagree with .....in a friendly way of course :)

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:48:13 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Not a guess. Message:

Dermot: I'm a political/social scientist and I'm not really guessing about this deference thing. The difference between the US and Europe is documented for as long as we have had opinion surveys, going back to the 1930s. It is large, significant, and robust. The order going from most to least deferencial would be Continental Europe, Ireland, England/Scotland/Wales, Canada, United States. I don't know any political or social scientists anywhere who contest it. The only part of my conjecture that was a *guess' has to do with the relationship to political paranoia. Want citations? I've got piles of them. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:01:34 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: I think we need the citations on this one Message:

Dermot: I'm a political/social scientist and I'm not really guessing about this deference thing. The difference between the US and Europe is documented for as long as we have had opinion surveys, going back to the 1930s. It is large, significant, and robust. The order going from most to least deferencial would be Continental Europe, Ireland, England/Scotland/Wales, Canada, United States. I don't know any political or social scientists anywhere who contest it. The only part of my conjecture that was a *guess' has to do with the relationship to political paranoia. Want citations? I've got piles of them. --Scott --- My guess is that European countries have a built in deference to authority not found in North America (at least not to the same degree). It's just a guess though, but if true I'd expect less susceptability to conspiracy theories in Canada than the US, although there's that intervening variable of the Quebecois. Deference explains a lot more than people realize. -my emphasis Christ all fucking mighty Scott.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:56:05 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gerry Subject: You asked for it. Message:

I'm really not guessing, though it seems I constructed the sentence poorly. You have me there. Should have read something like: 'My guess is that the cause of the difference lies partly in the greater deference shown authority in France and Europe, compared to the US.' This is a virtual medium, not a published peer reviewed journal, and at 2 AM my fingers sometimes get in the way of my head. Requested citations include (but are not limited to) Carll Everett Ladd, S. M. Lipset, Larry Diamond, David J. Greenstone, Louis Hartz, Talcott Parsons, Ronald Inglehart, Juan J. Linz, Paul Lazarsfeld, Joseph Schumpeter, Aaron Wildavsky, James Q. Wilson, Mattei Dogan, and last but not least Alexis de Toqueville (participant observer, since he predates opinion polls). Best I could come up with on short notice, but it's the tip of the iceberg. I also have the World Value Survey dataset with measures of policital and social deference for about 1500 participants in each of 80 to 100 countries for three 'waves' in the 1980s through 1999, if you happen to have facility with statistics. You can run simple cross-tabulations, or regressions using controls. Heck, there might even be a measure or two for 'political paranoia' that you could use as the dependent variable to test my theory. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:37:44 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Strange thing about conspiracy theories Message:

because u are French maybe? :) still, no Isreli was killed. what, ah ok. [p.s I think you are doing a good job updating the site while all this is happening, 5 chappaties for you]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:04:20 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Salam Subject: Re: Strange thing about conspiracy theories Message:

It maybe that no Israeli nationals were killed, but I would imagine many Jewish people were caught up in the disaster, as indeed were Muslims; probably Sikhs and Hindus, certainly Xians and atheists. I believe a person can one hold dual US and Israeli citizenship (also Irish or Puerto Rican - but no others!) so the question of whether any victims did hold Israeli passports may have to wait for families to volunteer the info. I imagine they have more important concerns right now, n'est ce pas?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:25:07 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Please clarify John T Message:

Are you talking about US citizenship? I mean, do you mean that a US citizen can also hold an Israeli, Irish or Peurto Rican passport as well as a US one but for other countries only one passport is allowed? Holy bejeebus , that means I may become a US citizen for a little while. Hhahaha ....when business activity gets to dizzy heights maybe Ill need to be in the worlds most rampant capitalist environment !! Hmmm Virginia? Conneticut ? cowboy country? New Mexico ? Alaska? (no far too cold)....what a choice though eh ? I'll have my American flag on a pole in the garden with a litle Irish flag next to it :) ..... America, America la la la la la la la .....don't worry, I'll learn all the words !! And if any of you Brit bastards have a go at my country ....my god I'll show ya what an American is made of !!!! NO OFFENCE TO ANYONE INTENDED :)

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:46:53 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Salam Subject: And no frogs killed !! Message:

and almost no Frenchie : would you also conclude it's a french-jewish conspiracy ?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:01:28 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: No Latvians either. Message:

Well, I don't know that for *sure*.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:59:35 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: And no frogs killed !! Message:

I read somewhere that all the French were in fact jews, so your question could be valid.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:22:52 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Salam Subject: Waht about premies ? Message:

None got killed, by M's grace ....

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:18:43 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Waht about premies ? Message:

I remember years ago in London Belsize Park, there was this old premei and she became an instructor. She was saying that one day the whole world will come to an end, and maharaji will call all the premies and this light will shine and srround the premies and nothing will happen to them. Like some grandma story. There is only one problem with this senario that I see, by the time this happens, there won't be any premies. so I don't kinow how the story ends.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:21:33 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: salam Subject: Political Paranoia Message:

Salam, et al: I've recently become very interested in the work of a fellow named Jerrold Post at George Washington University. He's one of the luminaries an the field of 'Political Psychology,' and has studied and coined the term 'political paranoia' of which these latest conspiracy theories are but examples. He also believes that the 'cause' of the WTC event is to be found primarily the psychology of the cult, and that the only place where this significantly intersects with 'anti-US anger' is in the recruitment phase. Subsequent to that it's just a matter of psychological bonding to the group and to it's leader. In other words, pretty familiar stuff to us. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:56:24 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Political Paranoia Message:

the only place where this significantly intersects with 'anti-US anger' is in the recruitment phase. I can believe it. That is why a cool head, patience, and a steady nerve are essential. There is no need to act as an unwitting recruitment sergeant for al Qaida, no need at all. Islamicists the world over are with the US and Nato et al on this one. Remember that the US and Nato exerted itself to protect Europe's only Muslim population just recently. We have a considerable reserve of goodwill.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:13:27 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Re: Political Paranoia Message:

John: Yes, and I'd say that one even needs to go so far as to *encourage* mainline Islam to start fighting back actively against the cults, giving them the tools, etc. One has to intervene in the cycle of recruitment. But I reiterate, don't confuse this link with the *cause* of the attack. Our actions and the subsequent anti-US anger were not the cause, and only a provocation to the extent that the cult defines them as such. Had they not had their particular gripes they'd have found others, or simply made some up. This is no small point. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:47:55 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: the point Message:

Had they not had their particular gripes they'd have found others, or simply made some up. This is no small point. That would seem to be somewhat of an article of faith, rather than a proven fact. Perhaps it is a tenet of the Crusaders. Terrorism is not (usually) an isolated act by an isolated individual, but is much more a group phenomena, so the enquiry into Why ..? may look more at social circumstances and less at individual psychpathology. For every active terrorist combatant, you are likely to find dozens of non-combatant supporters; many more passive supporters; and vast numbers of sympathisers for the cause who decry the terrorists methods. This means that the causes the terrorists are identified with (at least initially) are crucial to their growth, and to a great extent, their continuing abilty to function. Also, the hard core surrounded by increasingly softer layers of support is what makes a guerilla campaign hard to defeat with merely bombs and bullets. Actions need to avoid moving folk from soft to hardline support, even as they neutralise the combatants.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:21:52 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Re: the point Message:

Guerilla campaigns are one thing, cults are another. Can't believe you'd argue about this. I think you're just attached to your thesis that these acts were 'caused' by some series of actions by the US and/or it's allies. If you believe that then it makes as much sense to argue that we're just too overtly 'sinful' in comparison to Islam, in which case we'll have to compel women to take up the veil, suppress and punish homosexuality, and modify *our* culture in myriad ways, all to avoid the next terrorist act. All, I believe, to little effect since it would only cause the cult to grow very much as it has already done in Afghanistan. To believe that there is a modifiable 'cause' is to not understand the situation, leading to a failed analysis and the wrong response. The social circumstances play a role in the sense that they 'cull the ground' for the cult, provide maintenance opportunities and opportunities for social control, create conditions for 'fellow travelers' who are not in the cult but perceive it as a legitimate social movement and therefore support it, etc. You find more cult activity whenever you find an uptick in social isolation, and you find more social isolation (as a general rule) with more depressed economic circumstances (see the Marienthal studies by P. Lazarsfeld). There are other mitigating factors though. Village life, and other 'mediating institutions' mitigate the tendancy. But the problem is that the more the village culture of the Middle East moves into the modern world the more it's dominated by 'mass' society, which tends to isolate people. So in the Islamic world you now have conditions ripe for widespread exploitation by political/religious 'warrior' cults, with the mix of mass culture and depressed economic circumstances. The specific tenets of Islam also lend it to this exploitation, as well as it's reluctance to deal with cults aggressively, or to find and codify the roots of secular life in the religious doctrines (as the Jews have done, for instance). You can impact the ability of cults to survive by changing the social circumstances, but that is not the same as saying that the social circumstances are the *cause* of the terrorist acts. You need to grasp this distinction. It's critical. Prior to establishment of the CCC and other 'workfare' programs under the Roosevelt administration radical political or quasi-religious cults were rampant. These included the 'Silver Shirts' and other Fascist groups, Father Coghlin(sp?), and even Huey Long (All the King's Men). The reason none of these groups ever achieved the ascendancy they did in Europe was primarily due to the ability of Roosevelt to establish social institutions that cut into the isolation produced by unemployment. Austria had 'the dole' rather than workfare, so it left people isolated while it supported them. The result was the widespread rise of Fascism, a virulent political cult. So you had more or less the same socioeconomic conditions, but a profound difference in result. (See *The Politics of Unreason* by S.M. Lipset). --Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:04:51 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Paranoia hijacking politics? Or vice-versa? Message:

No small point there at all, Scott - - in that, just as Bin Laden has 'hijacked' Islam in an attempt to give credence to his anti-US stance, Christianity itself (as preached by JC) was hijacked by the religious authorities in Rome (via the Roman Emperor Constantine) to give rise to the appalling treatment of the Muslims - especially during the Crusades (a term which Mr Bush would be advised to stop using) during the Middle Ages. But I have to disagree with you when you imply that US actions had nothing to do with the cause of this attack. We all (hopefully at least) TRY to take responsibility for our actions. But for America - and the UK - to deny that they are, at least to some extent, the author of their own misfortunes is, IMO, as futile as Maharaji denying that he had any part to play in being responsible for the current criticisms of him that are made here on this forum and on EPO. Or is the sense of outrage that Muslims feel when their own innocent citizens are bombed by the US (with the UK in tow) somehow less valid than the outrage felt by us Westerners at last week's carnage? It's 'all well and good' as long as your enemy's only got the equivalent of sticks and stones to throw at you. But when the stakes get higher ... PS - the military regime that currently has power in Pakistan (only since 1999 wasn't it?) is evidently in danger of alienating its own people. If the pro-Bin Laden faction overpowers it, you know what that means? It would mean that, for the first time in history, terrorists would have control of a country with nuclear capability. The US, and those in coalition with the US, need to think VERY carefully about the consequences of their future policies.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:26:18 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: Paranoia hijacking politics? Or vice-versa? Message:

But I have to disagree with you when you imply that US actions had nothing to do with the cause of this attack. We all (hopefully at least) TRY to take responsibility for our actions. But for America - and the UK - to deny that they are, at least to some extent, the author of their own misfortunes is, IMO, as futile as Maharaji denying that he had any part to play in being responsible for the current criticisms of him that are made here on this forum and on EPO. I'm not saying there isn't a relationship. I'm saying the relationship isn't *causal*. It's a vital distinction, because when you prioritize your response you put causes ahead of influences. See the point? --Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:55:30 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Political Paranoia Message:

Had they not had their particular gripes they'd have found others, or simply made some up. This is no small point. If this is true, then I really don't get it. What are their motives? Or is just like premies with their refusal to see the truth?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:47:56 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Take it to 'Anything Goes' [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:31:42 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: TROLL ALERT [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:47:26 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Re: TROLL ALERT Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:12:57 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Gerry, re TROLL ALERT Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:48:54 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Mel your post is empty, try again [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 06:22:43 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: Major Update on the EV-DLM Papers download page Message:

Major update on The Elan Vital - Divine Light Mission Papers Download Page. Download the website's contents, and have the whole website on your computer's hard disk. [ EV-DLM Papers Download Page ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:09:19 (EDT) From: Trying () ) Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Trying nt Message:

Trying())

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:10:46 (EDT) From: Trying again Email: None To: Trying () ) Subject: Re: Trying again Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:11:53 (EDT) From: Try once more Email: None To: Trying again Subject: Trying once more Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 04:51:48 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: All Subject: The coming war in Afghanistan Message:

Once invasion begins we can probably assume Russia in particular and probably China will not rock the boat, destabalise things and generally fuck it up. The biggest problem outside of Afghanistan will be massive civil unrest in Pakistan with the Government there backing the US/Allies with much of the population backing its muslim neighbour. Anyway, it was reported yesterday that Bush wants the British SAS to play a leading role and go in there first. The SAS was in there helping Afghanis against the Russians and it also has a lot of experience in training the Pakistani army in the mountaineous regions. So here's a report from an ex-SAS man from todays Guardian. Afghanis will prove a tough nut to crack by all accounts :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: IN THE DEAD ZONE: We were there to assess their fighting capability and to retrieve Soviet equipment. It was 1979 and the Afghans were fighting a superpower with tactics they had used against the British before the first world war. Watching them fight was like watching an old western: the cowboys would come into a valley and down would come the Indians. My task was to teach them modern guerrilla tactics. Without them, they would be exterminated. I tried to go without preconceptions, but it was hard. Before leaving Britain, everyone said be careful, they are barbaric, they'll chop you up. My boss at MI6 gave me a Flashman novel about Muslim brutality - his idea of a joke. After a few months adjusting, however, I found the Afghans to be very pleasant. We got along. I respected their bravery; they respected the way I instructed them. I had more difficulty coping with the physical terrain. When I arrived in Peshawar, an Afghan military leader warned me, 'I hope you are fit, my men march very quickly.' No problem, I thought. I was used to marching. But my God; up, up, up we went. We entered the Hindu Kush mountains and started climbing. Above 3,000m the oxygen started to thin and my concentration to lapse. The Afghans were used to it, but anyone else feels really light-headed. As fighting terrain, it is an absolute nightmare. It's a natural fortress. You can't get very far with vehicles; you get bogged down and the passes are too steep. The Russians had a bloody awful time. They really got stuck. It's one thing to put in your infantry, but you've got to keep them within range of your artillery and your mortars. With bad mountain passes, this is almost impossible. None of this matters to the Afghans: they have it all organised, moving from one village to the next, where they have bases stocked with food. This is how they have fought and won wars for the past 200 years, with little bases all over the place and holes in the ground where everything is buried. This allows them to carry as little as possible and to cover ground much faster than a western force could. We didn't use tents. We lived in caves or slept rough. There were guys in the army just carrying a weapon, three magazines and some naan bread, wrapped in a shawl on their back. There is no way a western soldier could carry heavy equipment and keep up with them. For a foreign army, establishing a supply route would be very difficult. To try to carry food and water up those mountains, some of which are 4,000m high, would be madness. Because of bacteria, you have to carry bottled water and each gallon weighs 4.5kg. On some days, we were going through 11 to 15 litres. A soldier marching in those hills is going to burn between 4,000-5,000 calories a day. You need high-calorie, Arctic rations. Meat doesn't last more than a couple of days, so must be killed fresh. I contracted hepatitis from bad food. And, of course, there is the weather. Towards the end of this month, the winter will start setting in. It begins with rain; then it freezes, then it snows. By the middle of October the snow will be very deep, up to neck height. A journey that takes three days to walk in summer will take 10 days in winter. The freezing conditions rule out helicopter support. The mist in the valleys invites crashes. The Afghan fighters know the mountains as well as a farmer from Wales knows his hills. They are like mountain goats. I heard someone on the radio say, 'Yeah, we can put in a load of four-man teams.' Well, that's ridiculous. The Hindu Kush is a vast expanse of land. What can a four-man team do that you can't do with a satellite? Never mind a needle in a haystack; it's like a needle in the middle of Wembley stadium. Besides, a western task force will stick out like a sore thumb in the Hindu Kush. Most of the Afghan fighters wear sandals with old car tyre treads on the bottom. So a western boot print is instantly trackable. Once identified, the soldiers are sitting targets. We trained the Afghans in the art of 'shoot and scoot'; they would lay a little ambush, let rip and disappear. They picked it up very quickly. Before long, they had learned to let the Russian convoys get half way up a pass and then blow a hole through their middle. The lucky ones died instantly. The unlucky were chopped to pieces in the aftermath. In the Hindu Kush, don't expect to appeal to the Geneva convention. The Taliban don't have much in the way of weapons. Their best defence is their terrain. When I first arrived, all they had were old 303s, sniper rifles, and some bolt-action guns. Very few had Kalashnikovs - they weren't used to semi-automatics. Now of course, they are much more sophisticated, although their weapons maintenance is virtually zero; a lot of it won't have been upgraded since the Russian war. They might have a few Stingers left - one of the best, shoulder-held, surface-to-air missiles. But whether they're serviceable or not is debatable. They have a lot of old ZSU23s, one of Saddam Hussein's favourite weapons, which can be used in ground or air support. It's a three-barrel, 50-calibre machine gun, usually arranged in groups of two, three or four, and it's fearsome. It has a range of about 4,000m, so if you're coming in on a helicopter and have four of these blasting away at you, it's devastating. They drive their Toyota pick-ups around with these things mounted on the back. Then there are the landmines. In the early 1980s, they cleared a buffer zone between Pakistan and Afghanistan - an area equal to four days' walk - then put in observation posts on the high ground and mined it all. Everything that entered the area was obliterated and it is possible that the ground is still mined. They are small mines, the size of tennis balls, made of plastic so you can't detect them. As for the composition of the army, most of the men were 17-24 years old. In some ways, the Afghan soldiers were no different from young guys everywhere; there was camaraderie. They might go and smoke a bit of opium, but for religious reasons, they wouldn't drink. They would get up at first light for prayers and would cover some distance before the sun came up. They would stop five times a day for prayer, although never during battle. I believe the Koran says that if you are engaged in combat, then you are excused from prayers. But they always prayed afterwards. They were normal Muslims, not fanatics. Still, in terms of their efficiency as an army, their biggest problem was the mullah influence over them. Because of the doctrine that it's a great honour to die in a holy war, they were fearless and took risks that western soldiers perhaps would not. This is not the point of a military exercise, which is to defeat the enemy and live to fight another day. If you are reckless with your life, you risk depleting the army before it has won. But it was almost impossible to raise this issue with them; it would have invited a lot of trouble. It is, in my opinion, extremely unlikely that Bin Laden is hiding in the mountains. He must have a base from where he can communicate. He can't communicate from inside the Hindu Kush. He is more likely to be on the north-west frontier of Pakistan, a heavily populated area that the west will be loath to attack. It is like the IRA tactic of hiding behind women and children; of hiding in a kids' playground. Besides, he will want to be somewhere where he can get CNN coverage of the attack on America, to admire his work. Most of the Afghan military leaders I encountered operated from the comfort of Peshawar in Pakistan. They didn't take part in any fighting, because they wanted to be around when the fighting was over, to reap the benefits. If it comes to a ground war, I believe the western forces will have a very slim chance of victory. The last army to win in Afghanistan was that of Alexander the Great; everyone else has got mauled and pulled out. The CIA made an awful lot of maps when they were there, but a map is only as good as the person using it, and there is no safe way to get troops in. The Afghans are a formidable enemy. I should know. We in the west pointed them in the right direction and with a little bit of training, they went a long way.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:00:21 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Afghanistan not defeated since Alexander the Great Message:

Afghanistan not defeated since Alexander the Great ... ... and here comes Dubbya

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:01:18 (EDT) From: PatD Email: None To: Dermot Subject: A Blast from the Past Message:

Then we brought the lances down , then the bugles blew , When we went to Kandahar , ridin' two an' two , Ridin', ridin', ridin' two an' two , Ta- ra-ra-ra-ra , All the way to Kandahar , ridin' two an' two. --- --- --- --- - When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plain's , And the women come out to cut up what remains , Just roll up your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier. From 2 poems by Rudyard Kipling

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:38:23 (EDT) From: toby Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Are you ready for that? Message:

Yes , I agree it would take mass of support to take the country. Mass of men. Mr. Bush said that this would be a long time campaign. I agree. But America must be ready to take Pakistan too, if the muslim mob is taking over the government and so the nuclear weapons. If they are not ready to do this, they shouldn't even start. The most natural ally would be India in that case. Toby

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:15:36 (EDT) From: Amazing Email: None To: Dermot Subject: amazing article, thanks. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 08:42:55 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Nice one Dermot Message:

I think the truth is slowly sinking in that al Qaida's plan was to lure the States into first a bombardment (which would ensure hatred from the locals) and then a ground invasion to capture Mr bin Laden. From al Qaida's point of view all this would be a Good Thing. They saw it could be possible to slaughter US squaddies in large number while large parts of the Islamic world erupted in fury against the States. Given the sophistication and foreign knowledge of too many of the more vocal American 'experts' and 'strategists' the plan could well -- and it appears very nearly did -- succeed. It may be of interest that from 1970 thru 1977 Britain's SAS fought in Dhofar, against communist insurgents from Yemen, also successfully, also in an arid and mountainous region that is home to fierce Islamic tribesmen and their families. Unfortunately, the government they supported was itself far from democratic, and today a group of young Britons languishes in jail in that country, for guerrilla attacks against the Yemini regime.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 06:11:18 (EDT) From: Here's a link Email: None To: Dermot Subject: to a D.C. Think Tank Message:

[ Think Tank ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 05:16:03 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: The coming war in Afghanistan Message:

Yeah, but Bush said we'd root these guys out. Thanks for a good article, Dermot.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 08:43:51 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Rick Subject: Re: The coming war in Afghanistan Message:

Lets's send him and the twins in first.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 04:42:28 (EDT) From: Annie Email: None To: All Subject: Message to Deborah Message:

'Okay Annie, so you've recognized that it was mistaken identity, so why do you accuse me of throwing my HATE at you. ' OK I didn't feel like it was an accusation, I thought it was a strained but polite request. Your words to me in the previous post seemed hateful: 'Fuck off Annie. I made a statement not to praise Maha for ANYTHING, get it. Get lost. I was NOT debating anything, NOR was I distorting anything, etc. You are a son of a bitch liar. When Maha's JIhad started, that was the day you left. You told us to fuck off, remember you psycho bitch. We told you to fuck off as well. So are you catweasel? You like Jihads. Maybe you'll get hit yourself. So fuck off already, stop posting here. Damn you !' I didn't deserve it, first of all, and secondly it hurt, especially at the time with all that has been happening. I am not sure what you are referring to here, if you could clarify: 'And you sounded susupicious the second time you posted with the BigHead quote' Thank you for your apology, I read below that you were at Deca, and I am wondering if we knew each other there. Annie

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:17:49 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Annie Subject: Re: Message to Deborah Message:

Annie, what I had to say was a case of mistaken identity. These words were intended for someone who was here during the time I mentioned. Has somebody informed you what went on. Email Jim, he's the best to inform you. And that wasn't you. You weren't here therefore the words weren't for you. you asked: I am not sure what you are referring to here, if you could clarify: 'And you sounded susupicious the second time you posted with the BigHead quote' You left a post with an article about the innocent people in Afghanastan, I responded with the post that is was a *must read, although I thought you were the same Annie. Then I thought you were actually Catweasel or another malicious troll (get story of Maha's Jihad and CAC to understand). Annie, the previous one told us she was an aspirant for 10 yrs. Then I read your post where you said Maha was concerned, etc. and I thought you were the other Annie who was now saying you were a premie and therefore fucking us around. Annie, it's because of the sensitivity of the entire planet that I was appalled about such a cruel and ill-timed hoax. Trust me, I am going around looking for a fight. I avoid the malicious premie posts. I may discuss them IF i've read them with other exes but I refrain from answering their posts. I can't afford the poisonous energy any more than I'm sure you can. So I lashed out. Those trolls use other names all the time. you said: Thank you for your apology, I read below that you were at Deca, and I am wondering if we knew each other there. Thank you for accepting my apology. Believe me it was clearly mistaken identity with justifiable a reaction, especially under the circumstances. And at Deca, I was there off and on during 1981-83 (me thinks). I remember an Ann (beautiful and blonde) from the complex. I was close with Peter Dettmers, Bruce Asai, Odie, Jinda, and LeRoy West who ran the Hangar and of course others whose names escape me. I spent most of my time at the hangar in Admissions. Lots of love to you, Sorry again for mistaken identity, next time I'll try and clarify first. Deborah

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:12:04 (EDT) From: Annie Email: AWSosman@aol.com To: Annie Subject: what jihad is Message:

I thought this was worth passing on, since the word 'jihad' gets thrown around alot. << WHAT JIHAD IS: -- The Arabic word ''jihad'' is often translated as ''holy war,'' but a more accurate translation is ''holy struggle.'' Islamic scholars say the term ''holy war'' was actually coined in Europe during the Crusades to mean a war against the Muslims. -- In a purely linguistic sense, the word ''jihad'' means struggling or striving. There are two different, unrelated words which mean war. -- In a religious sense, as described by the Koran and teachings of the Prophet Mohammed, jihad means striving for the benefit of the community or the restraint of personal sins. It can refer to internal as well as external efforts to be a good Muslim, or believer. Scholars say it primarily refers to efforts to improve oneself. -- Jihad is a religious duty. -- If jihad is required to protect the faith against others, it can be performed using anything from legal, diplomatic and economic to political means. If there is no peaceful alternative, Islam also allows the use of force, but there are strict rules of engagement. Innocents -- such as women, children, or invalids -- must never be harmed, and any peaceful overtures from the enemy must be accepted. -- Military action is therefore only one means of jihad, and is very rare. To highlight this point, the Prophet Mohammed told his followers returning from a military campaign: ''This day we have returned from the minor jihad to the major jihad,'' which he said meant returning from armed battle to the peaceful battle for self-control and betterment. -- In case military action appears necessary, not everyone can declare jihad. The religious military campaign has to be declared by a proper authority, advised by scholars, who say the religion and people are under threat and violence is imperative to defend them. The concept of ''just war'' is very important. -- The concept of jihad has been hijacked by many political and religious groups over the ages in a bid to justify various forms of violence. In most cases, Islamic splinter groups invoked jihad to fight against the established Islamic order. Scholars says this misuse of jihad contradicts Islam. -- Examples of sanctioned military jihad include the Muslims' defensive battles against the Crusaders in medieval times, and before that some responses by Muslims against Byzantine and Persian attacks during the period of the early Islamic conquests. WHAT JIHAD IS NOT -- Jihad is not a violent concept. -- Jihad is not a declaration of war against other religions. It is worth noting that the Koran specifically refers to Jews and Christians as ''people of the book'' who should be protected and respected. All three faiths worship the same God. Allah is just the Arabic word for God, and is used by Christian Arabs as well as Muslims. -- Military action in the name of Islam has not been common in the history of Islam. Scholars says most calls for violent jihad are not sanctioned by Islam. -- Warfare in the name of God is not unique to Islam. Other faiths throughout the world have waged wars with religious justifications. >>

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:03:09 (EDT) From: Forum Janitor Email: None To: Annie Subject: I don't think I like you Message:

Tread lightly, my dear. This is an Ex-Premie forum, remember.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:58:33 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: Forum Janitor Subject: Re: I don't think I like you Message:

But she does explain it the way it is am afraid.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:12:56 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Salam Subject: Re: I don't think I like you Message:

I have no problem with her cut and paste job on the definition of 'jihad.' I do have a problem with her bugging Deb with this new thread given Deb has already apologized. Annie is aware enough to see that Deb, not unlike myself can be somewhat volatile at times and this attempt at provocation should be seen as just that: a passive aggressive attempt at provocation.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:41:00 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: gerry Subject: OK, no prob, leave it to me Message:

Hey Annie, you leave Debbie alone or I bug you, })})Do you undertand })}) good. Now be a good girl and tell us about jihad while I thumb my mostashes.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:26:40 (EDT) From: Annie Email: None To: Forum Janitor Subject: I don't think I know you. Message:

Dear Janitor, I am uncertain as to why you posted that, or from where you are drawing your conclusion that you don't think you like me. If you wish to be more specific about WHY you don't think you like me I will consider what you have to say, and hopefully I will learn something, if your criticism is valid. I am no threat to you, or anyone, if that is your concern. Annie

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:34:21 (EDT) From: Forum Janitor Email: None To: Annie Subject: Re: I don't think I know you. Message:

I've read most, if not all of your posts. You reek of passive aggression.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:52:12 (EDT) From: Annie Email: None To: Forum Janitor Subject: thanks, and a question. Message:

Dear Janitor and anyone else who wishes to respond, I do know my own reasons for visiting this forum, and several times have stated what they are; but I have been accused of being a liar, and met with a fair amount of [I think] unprovoked hostility. In the midst of everything going on, it has seemed unnecessarily unkind. I really don't want to be posting here if I am unwanted; I've been told in the past I was welcome. If this is no longer true I can certainly disappear. Am I unwelcome here? Annie

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:01:47 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Annie Subject: Depends Message:

You're welcome here if you can discuss things honestly. No one has any time for premies's lies and evasions. We've all been premies before, don't forget. We've all been through the process of looking at Maharaji openly and honestly and that's how we left. Naturally, we don't have a lot of patience for premies who come here who won't do what we did mentally but who rather defend their cult leader at all costs. I know that the last times I ever tried to talk with you about any of this, whether on the forum, in email or even on the phone, you put up such a dense wall of new age defenses, it was impossible. Take a look at your posts in the archives, you'll see what I mean. You made a point, however 'nicely', of demonstrating how one can use new age gross relativism and other neat tricks to avoid anything. So, are you 'welcome' here? To me, I just figure, what's the point? Unless you're willing to go further this time and to really discuss Maharaji without flinching, you're just another premie time and patience-waster. I'm blocked from Lifes Great but someone who isn't told me that you were saying that EPO had lots of distortions although, like all premies, when pressed, you wouldn't or couldn't name any. That kind of accusation is tiresome. I know you know what I mean. So why do you do it? There are many cold, hard facts alleged about Maharaji that premies can't deal with and, like I say, unless you've changed somehow since you last posted, I don't expect you can either. For example, how do you feel about the fact that Maharaji 'x-rated' premies closest to him so he could have someone to party with? All those years you were faithfully living in the ashram, he's secretly partying and -- make no mistake -- orchestrating a big lie to fool the likes of you and me and Scottie and Cintra and Surry and Pierre Mesmejean? That's either true or it isn't. If it's true, we were duped by our so-called 'master'. I knew you then and I don't care what you say now, I know that if you'd have learned that then you would have been deeply, deeply hurt and disillusioned. And how do you, of all people, feel about the fact that Maharaji has, for years apparently, had an affair with Monica Lewis, your own ex-husband's supposed girl friend, not to mention the many other premie women he had people like Dettmers pimp for him? Again, say what you will but the Annie I knew would have been shaken to the bone with that revelation back in the day. Or how about the fact that Maharaji now denies that he ever claimed to be God? Again, you were there. You know. So how do you feel about the fact that this guy can't take any responsibility for his own past but has to try to blame it on anyone and everyone but himself? You and I have a good mutual friend in Scottie. Scottie left Maharaji sometime earlier this year as you know. I know that you know because he told me that he showed you the journal he kept during his exitting. It was a poignant and beautiful expression of one honest man's search for a thread of truth in what he realized was a large blanket of lies. He posted much of it on on the forum and people really appreciated the depth of his thought, sensititivy and honesty. He told me, though, that you described it as his 'descent into madness'. Annie, you should fall so hard.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:04:19 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Annie Subject: A perfect example of passive aggression Message:

...met with a fair amount of [I think] unprovoked hostility. In the midst of everything going on, it has seemed unnecessarily unkind. One other reason I am feeling less than generous towards you is your nauseating willingness to try and get mileage out of the tragedy we just experienced. Repellent really. Maybe that's what really bothers me about you. Otherwise you're harmless, I guess. But I really don't see the purpose of your starting this thread just to fight with Deb.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 02:09:21 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: organicbananas@mikegaberaphael.com To: All Subject: commentary by an American born in Afghanistan Message:

Commentary from WW, a writer and columnist in Davis CA, who comes from Afghanistan. [This needs to be common knowledge and e-mail is how it will become so. Pass it on!]   I've been hearing a lot of talk about 'bombing Afghanistan back to the  Stone Age.' Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this  would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with  this atrocity, but 'we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage.  What else can we do?' Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing  whether we 'have the belly to do what must be done.'   And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I  am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 25 years I've  never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone  who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.   I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no  doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity  in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.   But the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even  the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant  psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political  criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you  think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think 'the people of  Afghanistan,' think 'the Jews in the concentration camps.'   It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this  atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would  exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear  out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.   Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The  answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering.  A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000  disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.   There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these  widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the  farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the  reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.   We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone  Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it  already.   Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their  houses?   Done.   Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their  hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from  medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.   New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at  least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the  Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away  and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans,  they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying  over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the  criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be  making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people  they've been raping all this time.   So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with  true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in  there with ground troops. When people speak of 'having the belly to do  what needs to be done' they're thinking in terms of having the belly  to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral  qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the  sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just  because some Americans would die fighting their way through  Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks.  Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through  Pakistan.   Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to  be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm  going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.   And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he  wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements.   It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It  might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world  into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west  wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with  nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of  view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever  that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would  die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin Laden  does. Anyone else?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:34:45 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Correction Message:

The Talaban are Afghanies. If this fellow knows anything then he should also know that the Talaban [Talaba'h] were the orphined children of people fighting against the Russian. These children lost one or both of their parent, and in many cases all their family, they were taken to the Pakistan borders and put into refugee camps and looked after by aid agencies. They then joined a 'Madrassa' or school run by the extrem right UJI party [Jamiat-Ulema-Islam] or which can be translated to litrery to the Islamic Science Organisation and has it's secretry as Maulana Abdul. These schools where made in hell. Non of the students have seen a TV or a woman, they do nothing all day but memorize the Q'uoran and study Islamic 'Shar'a'h'. Those student graduated as fanatics, they know nothing except for Islam, they do what the Ulma tell them, death, starvation, deprevation, turtor doesn't mean anything to them. The students themselves are the meat in the grinder, they know no altrnative. Couple that with a country where about 35% of the population live in poverty, a death rate of 10% and a countinous war with India on Kahmir and you get what we have now. you may want to know that the next in line for their hate is India, the idole worshipers. bin Ladden has nothing to do with Islam, he is only using the Talaban for his own purposes. His beaf is that when he came back from the war with Russia and the start of the Gulf war, he and his men wanted to fight the Iraquies without help from the west. When his country, Saudia Arabia told him to stick it up his nose because there was too much American strategic interest involved he turned sour aginst his countey and America in particular because he thought that the American infidels desecrated the holy land of the Mohamad. He got his ass kicked, went to Sudan, did his number, America chased him in Sudan, got kicked out because no one in Sudan was prepared to cop the cost of what was going to happen next, got the boot again and went back crying to mum when the Talaban came to control the country. That is his position. So what I want to say, is I think it's better to know what you are talking about rather than ramble incomprehensibly the way this fellow does. As for bombing them, well fuck all, those guys can live on dry grass and snow. There is nothing in their country that can be destroyed casue it's already is destroyed. Let's not forget, that the Talaban are forcing the peole of their country into submission. but fuck this, it's a long story.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:28:45 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: salam Subject: re'know what you're talking about' Message:

my friend WW was born in Afghanistan, where his dad was a governor of a province. Then the Russians came in and began taking over the country and killed all the male adults of his family, and he and his young brothers became boy mujihadeen guerilla fighters, until the Russians drove out the rebel forces in that area. Then the surviving family members fled to Pakistan, then India, then Germany and the US, where some are now American citizens with their own young families. There are about 60-70,000 Afghanis living in the Bay Area alone. Now, WW's opinions are clearly his own, and also based on his experiences and his information sources. Peace and lentils,

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 06:36:51 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: I've been there in 1968 Message:

For a couple of weeks. Visited all these places, Heirat, Kandahar, Kabul, Bamyan (and the huge buddas), Bandyamir etc. The country was already very poor, everything was almost a ruin, but the people lovely. I can imagine what's left after decades of war ! NOTHING. They've been exploited and abused by the fundamentalists/extremists, and drugs' traders. There can't be much left in this country ..... not worth killing innocent people anyway.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 02:55:58 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Re: commentary by an American born in Afghanistan Message:

What publication does he write for?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 00:00:45 (EDT) From: Michael Read Email: None To: All Subject: open letter to the terrorists Message:

In the name of Allah the Merciful, please, do not kill any more people. There are many who wish you peace though thier governments do have people in them that do not wish you peace. Many still do and we are speaking up. We do not like the killing of anybody - for any reason. We understand that you have strong reason to fight for your selves and your way of life. You have been attacked by many great powers. You have held and kept the name of Allah alive. Many of us are now studying the Koran. We may not become formally Muslims. But we will strive to understand all the ways of Allah. I do not know if this message will ever reach you. I pray that it does. I would rather meet you heart to heart and person to person. If we are dead, how can we pray together? If we kill each other's children, who will play together on this good good earth? God in His Mercy has given us a garden. Shall we turn it into a charnel house? Is this how we repay the universe for these gifts? I do not want to turn on the television or pick up a newspaper and learn about and see the torn bodies of children. Nor do I want to see the fractured earth layered over with death. If this is what you want to see and the legacy you wish to leave, what can be done? Think about the laughter of the animals and the children. Do you not hear God's voice - even there? Why destroy that? Please find a peaceful path. Praise the Name of Names! With love eternal - Michael

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:20:42 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Michael Read Subject: are you serious? Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:52:12 (EDT) From: Victoria H. Email: None To: All Subject: Canadian tv commentator Gordon Sinclair Message:

TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. America: The Good Neighbor. Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: 'This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those.' Thought you all might be interested in this. Love, Victoria

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:21:39 (EDT) From: a0aji Email: None To: All Subject: Who's Who Message:

During the events of the past week, I'd come to realize how little I'd paid attention to the names and offices of the key players emerging on the cable newscasts, before the tragedy of the 11th. Tonight, I found a neat link describing the Bush Cabinet -- looks fairly accurate. If you have any relevant URLs (especially, any talking heads seen on CSPAN from the Pentagon) I'd appreciate a post here (as well as anything else you'd like to add). -a0aji [ Bush Administration - Washington Post dotcom ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:16:00 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: a0aji Subject: swell bunch of fellows and gals, thanks (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:45:58 (EDT) From: a0aji Email: None To: All Subject: The 'war can be avoided' fantasy Message:

I've read a lot of interesting ideas about war; many of them deal with, in one form or another, the inevitability of war. Is war inenvitable?

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:08:45 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: a0aji Subject: Read this Message:

The book itself is out of print, but this passage gives the gist of what he says in *How to Think about War and Peace*. [ Adler on War and Peace ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:59:26 (EDT) From: a0aji Email: None To: a0aji Subject: Re: The 'war can be avoided' fantasy Message:

Is war inenvitable? --- Inevitable, even?

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:42:20 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: All Subject: Wow, not one comment about my message below! Message:

I was expecting a few gnarlies but nothing! You guys must either be slipping or you agree. BTW it should read '1.2 billion Muslims.'

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:18:59 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Dog, at the risk of getting flamed Message:

I went down and read your post. I thought it was a pretty good post, for a thumbnail sketch. There is some truth to this partriarchal religion stuff. I'm not reading a lot of the stuff here and not posting much because people get offended quite easily these days -- a bit jumpy I'm afraid. Best wishes to you, Francesca

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:26:21 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Throw a dog a bone Message:

You know Dep, reading the 'new' pro-Goober website, reading Lifes Great, reading the EV FAQ's, all this, new people posting saying they have just left the cult after 28 years, we really are making a difference. We really are putting a hole in RawRat's stockings, people are getting free, we are winning !!!

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:51:28 (EDT) From: Chuck S. Email: None To: All Subject: A new website about Maharaji... Message:

It's interesting that all these cult apologist websites keep appearing, attacking expremies while never linking to any of our sites, while most of the exes sites freely link to theirs, because we know the 'information' they contain does not hold up to scrutiny. Here is a website about ALL websites about Maharaji: http://www.geocities.com/maharajiwatch/ [ MaharajiWatch ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 01:05:43 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: BRAVO! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:54:30 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: His UGMug made my head spin ()) Message:

Hee hee hee. I got freaked out when I saw that mug. It scared me. ~) So I stuck my tongue out at him and I felt better :) What a great page!! Let's add stuff to it. Nice job.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:13:33 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Hey!! Wait a minute Message:

How did you made it spin????:0

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:17:42 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Silvia Subject: You like that one ()) Message:

do this () followed by another ). If I did it together, you'd only see the spinning head.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 05:45:43 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Deborah Subject: can I try ()) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:21:13 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Deborah Subject: ())())())())()) hahahahaha Message:

I read your mail: OHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! Somebody is going to get it and is not us....

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:17:29 (EDT) From: trying Email: None To: Silvia Subject: Re: ())())())())()) hahahahaha Message:

Try again ())())())())())())

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:18:50 (EDT) From: Try again Email: None To: trying Subject: Re: ())())())())()) hooray Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:56:00 (EDT) From: ()) Email: None To: Try again Subject: ;)())())())())()) hooray Message:

())

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:13:19 (EDT) From: ())())())())()) Email: None To: ()) Subject: Re: ;)())())())())()) hooray Message:

()) ()) ())()) ()) ())

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:13:00 (EDT) From: ())())())())()) Email: None To: ()) Subject: Re: ;)())())())())()) hooray Message:

()) ()) ())()) ()) ())

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:58:21 (EDT) From: Silvia Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: Thanks Chuck Message:

Good job! :) LOL .....to the oposition.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:09:58 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: Excellent...just what's needed ...FA? Message:

Can Charles' page be linked to the Forum? And EPO Admin, can it be linked from the EPO website as well? Thanks.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:18:54 (EDT) From: Forum Janitor Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Excellent...just what's needed ...FA? Message:

Hi Joe, Sure I'll link to it. And I'll make a new hotmail email address for the forum and put that up too. (Don't know why I hadn't done this before.) A couple of folks have the forum password in case I slip on the soap and join shree hans in the cosmic bathtub...

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:56:34 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Forum Janitor Subject: That was FUNNY Gerry [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:06:49 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: ...but I still prefer your old website Message:

[ You Too Can Be Satgooroo ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:42:06 (EDT) From: saucy Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: gurus suck Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:03:13 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: saucy Subject: Mr Willams=Charles? Message:

I think. But Buddah Baba knows better.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:11:36 (EDT) From: How about... Email: None To: salam Subject: Re: Mr Willams=David Anderson? Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:59:46 (EDT) From: Suedoula Email: None To: How about... Subject: Re: Mr Willams=David Anderson? Message:

When I lived in Atlanta, David used to call himself Ol' Black Williams. Erika was Jehmima (SP? Don't remember why. Just thought you'd be interested in knowing. Best, Susan

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:31:31 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: How about... Subject: YES! Mr Willams=David Anderson? ~) Message:

It's true. It's true. Sad, but true. What ugly posts he left and then he came back and acted civil. But he lost it after a day or two.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:53:43 (EDT) From: chas Email: None To: saucy Subject: Erika's 101 Reasons... Message:

... are mostly the same reasons posted by 'Mr. Williams' on FV in June. He ignored my reply to his post. Here is my reply again (to give Erika a chance to ignore it, too) : Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 at 18:37:26 From: Chuck Sprague Email: bctanda@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Mr. William's lists; a closer look... Message: Someone calling himself Mr. Williams posted some lists, in response to a post Joe made to Premies about why Elan Vital/Maharaji is a cult. It just scrolled into inactive before I could post this. The two lists Mr. Williams made, of things that are ''Promoted'' and ''Not Promoted'' by M. are interesting, especially when offered as examples of how EV/M is not a cult. I want to make a few comments about them. Regarding the things he claims M promotes: Promoted… Daily practice of four techniques Enjoyment of life Freedom of choice Listening to teachings of living teacher Personal inner experience Personal responsibility Voluntary participation This list is essentially the Knowledge Lite version of M and K, which is the ''for public consumption'' version offered to aspirants and which is how M and K are spoken of in the Introductory and Learning More series of videos. If only it really were that simple. That is what I kept telling myself, when I became involved in syncronised participation. That is how I really learned more, helping with the video library. There are a whole series of color coded videos which are supposed to slowly persuade, to lead the student from the perception of M as a teacher, to being both a teacher and a Master, to eventually accepting him as something much more than a teacher; The Master. And The Master is... well, ''You Know Who''. K-Lite is the first stepping stone on the path leading to Full Industrial Strength Devotional K. It's Bait-and-Switch; Bait them with the teacher; hook them on the simplicity; muddle the distinction between a teacher and a Master; then switch to THE Master, who's REALLY You-Know-Who. Back it up with scripture, then hitch up the wagon load of crap that goes along with THAT concept, all the while insisting that it isn't a concept, just the truth. And don't worry about the words, just concentrate on THAT feeling. (Didn't M once say, in the early days, that he came to the West to ''Kill the wicked witch of logic?'' Sounds like a slippery slope to me.) And if the individual never makes it all the way to Devotional Knowledge, that's O.K., because anyone who buys videos and sends money is useful too, just like I was for the better part of 20 years. But if you don't make it to ISDK, then the devotional stuff (''Think of Me when you die'', ''Don't go through the darshan line unless you're ready to show some RESPECT'', ''Sing Arti like you MEAN it.'') doesn't make a lot of sense. Devotional K, which is devotion to M, is what it IS all about. It explain's M's comments like ''NEVER doubt the purity of the Master.'' That is not the typical way one talks about a teacher. That's probably one reason why the dropout rate is so high. Many of the things mentioned on Mr. W's ''Not Promoted'' list actually WERE actively promoted in the past. Things like: Not Promoted...(!?!) Austerities, Practice of (in the Ashram) Coercion of any sort (Ashram) Communal living (Ashram) Compulsory financial contributions (Ashram) Free will, Surrender of (See the Knowledge Pledge) Harassment of ‘ex-members’ - (Pat Haley and the hammer incident? In more recent times, EV taking down ex's websites with claims of copyright infringement. Fortunately most of the sites were re-instated, after explaining to the ISP's who was complaining, and why. And EV still maintains on their website that they support free speech, while trying to silence their critics.) Hellfire & damnation, Belief in (M did a variation on this, with ''Rotting vegetables'' and ''smashed into a thousand pieces'', and other threats of insanity for those who leave the Master. M simply lies nowadays, claiming repeatedly that he NEVER said such things, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and the fact that people remember things!) Holy relics, Belief in (What was that holy water, with the bits floating in it? Charnamit?) Mind control (The mind was the enemy, and had to be controled. Currently, it's called ''The Doubtmaker''.) Pressure not to ‘leave’ or to ‘return’ (Were not the Ashrams supposed to be a lifetime commitment?) Private lives, Interference in (M telling premies not to marry.) Self-sacrifice (Ashrams) Separating children from parents (Many parents lost custody of their children because they belonged to a cult) Sexual abstinence (Ashrams) Storage or consumption of bodily wastes (Really, what WAS that stuff, those bits floating around in the holy water? GROSS!) Guess Mr. W forgot about those? But I suppose they don't count, because that happened in the past, and that's been revised, improved and evolved? But have things really changed, or is M just trying to have it both ways? Was K-Lite and the ashram closures merely a response to the increased cult-awarness that began with the Jonestown tragedy? Isn't cult-awarness the reason why the old devotional practices are not allowed to be photographed, are hidden from public view, done in secret in remote places and protected from scrutiny with smart-card memberships? How about some things that are STILL promoted, that are on Mr. W's ''Not Promoted'' list? Most noticably: Conventional psychiatry, Antipathy towards (Perhaps M has softened his stance on this in recent times, but I recall many videos, and not old ones, where he ridicules any sort of self-help books. Clearly, M and K are supposed to be enough.) Course fees (exorbitant or otherwise), Payment of (Large fees for various ''trainings'' EV offers frequently. Chuchladies love to compare the trainings they've had with other churchladies, to see who's done the most and if they should do more.) Intellectual ability, Need for special (I agree with this one. No special intellectual ability needed, or encouraged.) Rule books (The contents of many of EV's manuals are published on EPO. The committee meetings and video events are all highly controlled, with rules, and guidelines and proceedures for everything. That is what all these ''trainings'' are about. Rules, rules, and more rules, to make sure we are all ''syncronized and talking about K and M in the same way, at the same time''. Can you say ''Cult''?) Scriptures, Authority based on interpretation of (M has used scriptures more and more, to talk about the Master, in case anyone is not clear on what the Master really is, and that he is actually ''You-Know-Who''. Really Mr. Williams, when is the last time you actually listened to M speak? Haven't you been Keeping In Touch?) Special jewellery or accessories - (Of COURSE there is Special Jewelry, and Accessories that boggle the mind! Gee, aren't you even on the mailing list, Mr. Williams? Or don't you ever read the Divine Catalogs? Aren't you interested in enhancing your spoon collection? Don't you donate money or buy videos? The catalogs are sent to everyone who does.) Therapy sessions - (Indeed, they are NOT promoted. For good reason. Any therapist worthy of the name, apon hearing about the mind-fuck their client has been put through via M and K, will tell their client they are in a Cult.) And the references to wacky New Age stuff that are not promoted is no doubt meant to be funny (and is), but the funniest thing about it is, that many premies DO believe in that stuff, wether M promotes it or not. We have all seen this, in many of the premie posts on EPO. Guru ju-ju and New Age thinking fit together well, apparently. The rest of the items on the list, yes, they make M seem like an easy cult, that doesn't make demands in many area's of your life. That's really a big part of it's appeal. M doesn't care if you drink or smoke or have sex. He doesn't care what you do with your personal life, as long as you are devoted to him as your Master, you keep his secrets, and you support him in a syncronized way so he doesn't have to do any real work, and can just live of donations like a playboy millionaire. Don't ask, don't tell. And he dosen't even know your name, and he doesn't WANT to know. If that is what you want Mr. Williams, then go for it. Your choice. But please don't come here and whine about us not liking it. Such hit-and-run posts are too boring, too tiresome. I think Deborah is right, it seems like you just want to think of us as defective so you won't have to look at the truth. Instead of claiming EV/M isn't a cult anymore because of what it doesn't do, how about honestly looking at what it does do? How about looking at Joe's post about the universal traits of a cult? Can you honestly say the shoe doesn't fit? Worse than being in a cult, is to be in one and not know it.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:46:21 (EDT) From: Hey this is an excellent post Email: None To: chas Subject: JM, *****Best Of***** Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:49:30 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: saucy Subject: Hey Chuck Message:

What about including the other MJ websites like Elan Vital and his personal one? Wouldn't this make your site more non-partisan? Great job - I enjoyed surfing around what you did. love ktd

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:06:18 (EDT) From: Chuck S. Email: None To: Disculta Subject: M's websites... Message:

Under the list I explain that all of M's official websites can be found on page one of Roger's site. I didn't want to repeat them all on the new site, as they are on many of the listed sites already. But I suppose I shall have to list them, too. It is a web directory, after all, so I should make it as complete as possible. Does anyone have the URL to Michelle Deradune's website? I remember it was kinda kooky, but I admired her spirit in saying what she wanted to say. If anyone remember's any other premie or ex-premies sites that I've left out, do let me know. The more the merrier.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:23:51 (EDT) From: Sure, here it is... Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: just click... Message:

This is fun... Love.... [ HERE..... ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:51:52 (EDT) From: Miss PWK Email: None To: Disculta Subject: How did you like that pic, Piggybai Ji Message:

Isn't our Master so beautiful. Even now with the lines of worry on his shining face and the unfortunate bloating caused by the fact that we cause him so much pain that he has to drink a lot? Some hateful manmut said to me that he looked greedy and selfish and debauched but as Shri Hans said ''devotion without Knowledge is blind.'' PatC: I wonder if that means that most premies don't have knowledge?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:43:24 (EDT) From: Piggybai Ji Email: None To: Miss PWK Subject: Swooning Message:

How did I like the pic? Let me count the ways! I see a love of all diversity reflected in the texture of His skin. Barely controlled rage seething in his smokey eyes at the evil Manmut forces of mind that He has to deal with as He combats them in all of us on a daily basis. And the expansion --- oh the expansion of that visage, in lo these many years, which of course symbolizes his expanding enlightenment. How can these unfortunate humans formerly known as premies (hufkaps) even stand or hold up their heads in the face of this potent darshan? I feel so sorry for them that they are missing 'that opportunity' to roll in shit Love Ms Piggybai, former instructor, now promoted to divine toilet cleaner

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:21:25 (EDT) From: Miss PWK Email: None To: Piggybai Ji Subject: Dear Miss Piggybai Message:

What the hell is a hufkap?

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