Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 16, 2001 To: Sep 19, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


Tim Matheson -:- Why I'm disappointed about the new M website -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:26:01 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- I SOLD MY JEWELERY -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:34:05 (EDT)
__ __ ggg -:- Re: I SOLD MY JEWELERY -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:15:57 (EDT)
__ __ Suedoula -:- Re: I SOLD MY JEWELERY -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:04:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Re: I SOLD MY JEWELERY -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:15:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- ha ha ha ha ha -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:02:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- ha ha ha ha ha -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:18:21 (EDT)
__ Miss PWK -:- Thank you, Tim -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:31:28 (EDT)
__ __ Miss Piggybai -:- To Ms PWK -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:56:12 (EDT)

Jim -:- Why didn't M send in DUO? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:40:28 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Why didn't M send in DUO? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:11:22 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- More opportunists -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:05:29 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: More opportunists -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:10:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- But not that clever -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:20:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: But not that clever -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:43:25 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- DUO's Mental Health Work. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:55:01 (EDT)
__ __ ulf -:- Re: DUO's Mental Health Work. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:33:57 (EDT)

Joe -:- Pundit Watch re 'the War' -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:46:09 (EDT)
__ bill -:- egad, the pundits are crazy [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:44:45 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- What really freaked me.... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:23:00 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: Pundit Watch re 'the War' -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:48:43 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Multiple Scott -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:17:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- I'll have a double Scott on the Rocks, please -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:41:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- The Bush/Cheney plan. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:53:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: The Bush/Cheney plan. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:42:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- I think you should read the above post. [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:57:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- But hopefully worry turned to relief. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:51:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Multi-Scott -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:35:11 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Thanks, Joe (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:14:15 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Who cares why they hate us? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:46:11 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Re: Who cares why they hate us? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:11:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Good point, John -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:10:13 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Jim, are you serious?? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:57:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Now, I agree with THAT! -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:02:09 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Ever heard of 'know your enemy?' -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:49:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Ever heard of 'know your enemy?' -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:40:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Huh? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:22:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Yeah, know your enemy. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:22:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- That's just absurd, Scott -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:33:24 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Why it matters. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:17:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Why it matters. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:51:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Terrorists don't grow on trees. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:05:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Or is it that they 'hate freedom?' -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:12:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Terrorists don't grow on trees. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:00:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- making enemies -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:31:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Guns -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:46:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- PS -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:52:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Boy do I ever disagree with THAT! -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:35:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Jim how would you do that? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:22:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Boy do I ever disagree with THAT! -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:46:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I think Tom Clancy's got it right -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:05:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- He's mostly right -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:53:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- So do I -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:37:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: I think Tom Clancy's got it right -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:11:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- That would be one of the best things -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:43:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- our foreign policy -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:35:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Sorry Gregg -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:50:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gregg -:- Re: Sorry Gregg -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:02:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- A few 'good' men. -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 00:21:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- You're incompetent. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:43:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- No, he's not. -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:55:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: You're kidding yourself -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:40:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- true -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:24:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- And you are fantacizing -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:54:18 (EDT)
__ Stonor -:- A Petition I received today ... -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:52:51 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: A Petition I received today ... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 01:36:45 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: A Petition I received today ... -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:47:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks for the feedback -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:19:10 (EDT)

a0aji -:- CERT reports increase in Port 80 scanning -OT- -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:40:51 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- The email virus. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:46:17 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- TROJ_SIRCAM -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:12:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Ooops -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:33:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- u bloody using NT with IE5.5 -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:16:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- U talkin' to me? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 00:29:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: u bloody using NT with IE5.5 -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:00:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- Meet Nimda -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:42:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- RTOOS -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:46:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I just updated my virus protection [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:53:30 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: The email virus. -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:05:00 (EDT)
__ __ Selene -:- if it's the new one today -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:58:33 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: CERT reports increase in Port 80 scanning -OT- -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:00:40 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: CERT reports increase in Port 80 scanning -OT- -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:51:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- IIS sucks -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:51:25 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- :: that link is good :: -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:45:58 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- :: root directory also gone 403 Forbidden! :: [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:47:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Time for Zone Alarm -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:09:23 (EDT)

cq -:- Yusuf Islam (f.k.a Cat Stevens) speaks out -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 10:16:50 (EDT)
__ RichMandrake -:- Cat Stevens..Wonderful Poet and Soul -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:26:41 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- Re: Cat Stevens..Wonderful Poet and Soul -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:53:38 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- What about the Rushdie fatwa? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:12:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: What about the Rushdie fatwa? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:32:31 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Israel & Palestine ceasefire -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:44:25 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Today is Rosh Hashannah -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:34:09 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Israel & Palestine ceasefire -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:15:37 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- Re: Israel & Palestine ceasefire -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:34:49 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- and Richard Stallman -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:06:06 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Who? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:11:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: Who? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:01:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Oh (nt) [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:50:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- (sigh) [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:14:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- (groan) -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:56:50 (EDT)

cq -:- Islamabad's dilemma -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:45:04 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Interesting read. tnx [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:06:14 (EDT)

janet -:- wow-i didnt understand b4 -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 05:41:04 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- whaddya wanna do next? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:20:31 (EDT)
__ __ Takes a dreamer -:- to make a dream come true. [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:51:34 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Food not bombs - exactly, John -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:15:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Food not bombs - exactly, John -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:23:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Nude Lolitas -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:39:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Nude Lolitas -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 01:46:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Food, propaganda and law enforcement -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 04:04:16 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Meddling preferences -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:31:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Get well soon [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:00:40 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: wow-i didnt understand b4 -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:59:21 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: wow-i didnt understand b4 -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 07:31:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Certainly a cult -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:04:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- It won't fly, Crusader -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:25:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Come off it -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:49:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Come off it -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 04:31:31 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- FA, please exterminate this CAC roach -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 04:54:22 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- You RULE PatC -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:11:59 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- ditto forum janitor -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:02:14 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- but he is SPECIAL, a premie -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:38:17 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- SC's post from Lifes Great -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:52:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- SC admits that he and Cat did CAC? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:09:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: SC admits that he and Cat did CAC? -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:53:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Jim, as the FA's busboy -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:03:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- PS Catweasel, you're a liar too -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:09:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: PS Catweasel, you're a liar too -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 05:38:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Victoria , sweetie dahling -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:29:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- AUUUUGGGGGHHH -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:38:15 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- PS: I also posted this on lifes Great -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 05:29:25 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Exactly -:- Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:15:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- What I just posted on Lifes Great -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 04:47:53 (EDT)


Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:26:01 (EDT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Why I'm disappointed about the new M website
Message:
We lovers of Lord Maharaji need to lead the way now. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is at hand. We need to sing the praises of OUR LORD MAHARAJI everywhere.

This new site and its owners show themselves to be totally embarrassed by OUR LORD's past.

I am not and freely admit we have all kissed his HOLY LOTUS FEETS many times and have sung 'Our Lord is the maker of all things created' to HIM many times. Oh, yes we have and we love doing it.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:34:05 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: I SOLD MY JEWELERY
Message:
very cheap on a Saturday afternoon to travel to another country to be able to kiss his feet for the first time.

Oh, all the magic we were told radiated from those feet...They could clean us, make us closer to him. More devotees. More surrendered to him...

Oh, you brought tears to my eyes.

MAHARAJI SUCKS!

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:15:57 (EDT)
From: ggg
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: I SOLD MY JEWELERY
Message:
Ditto!!!
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:04:01 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: I SOLD MY JEWELERY
Message:
Shoot, Silvia --

I GAVE HIM MY JEWELRY!!!! HOW STUPID OF ME!!!! SO THEY COULD GOLDPLATE THE FAUCETS IN THE BATHROOM OF THAT FRIGGIN' JET!!! ARGHHH!!!!!!

And now I will stop shouting and simply pull out another handful of hair.

Back to your regular programming (or is that de-programming?)

Best to all,
Susan

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:15:53 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Re: I SOLD MY JEWELERY
Message:
How good he did it to us! The bastardo!

But now, who is laughing? MEEEEEEEEEEE, and you, of course....LOL

:):):).....

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:02:03 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: ha ha ha ha ha
Message:
Suedoula, not you too! Has everybody taken mushrooms today? Dang! I have been laughing for over an hour at all the posts. Feels good.

Hi Silvia, I know you're reading this post :)

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:18:21 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: ha ha ha ha ha
Message:
Me too. I talked with Selene today and laughed some more. Life is so much better than what BiGHeaD said it is!!

WE WON!!!YUPPIE!!! THE BEST IS YET TO COME....eVEN FOR xxxx
Read your mail.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:31:28 (EDT)
From: Miss PWK
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: Thank you, Tim
Message:
Exactly! We are not ashamed of our perfect living master whose purity we never doubt.

No wonder the bitter, angry hateful exes call those PWKs ''apologists.'' They just sound so apologetic and snivelling about His Holeyness, His Perfect Rotundity.

It's time to stand up and be proud of kissing the Holey Lotus Feet and sing the praises of the Master without whom we ''cannot come home.''

Jai Sat Chit Anand, brother premie ji.

With you at the Lotus Feet,

Miss Pussy Weasel Kitty (channeled by PatC)

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:56:12 (EDT)
From: Miss Piggybai
Email: None
To: Miss PWK
Subject: To Ms PWK
Message:
Dear Lord, those 'humans formerly known as premies' (hufkaps) are surely missing the point, don't you see?

Was it not our holy Lord's Lord, Shri Hans Himself who said that Knowledge without devotion is dry? I am thinking they are in the desert, so dry they are becoming, thirsty is not the word for it.

Bali Shree Rawrat Ki Jai!

Miss Piggybai (channeled by Disculta)

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:40:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Why didn't M send in DUO?
Message:
Scientologists accused of misrepresenting selves during crisis

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- The National Mental Health Association accused the Church of Scientology of attempting to recruit members under the guise of providing mental health counseling after last week's terrorist attacks.

'This is a very important and sensitive time,' Michael M. Faenza, president and chief executive of the Alexandria, Va.-based NMHA said Monday. 'I urge the Church of Scientology to stay out of mental health. The public needs to understand that the Scientologists are using this tragedy to recruit new members. They are not providing mental health assistance.'

Scientology spokeswoman Janet Weiland said church volunteers who offered assistance to people following last week's attacks at the Pentagon and in New York City were upfront about their affiliation. The church added in a statement issued Monday night that all of its volunteers wore bright yellow t-shirts or jackets with 'Scientology Volunteer Minister' printed in 4-inch letters on them.

'We reject and, indeed, are outraged by the NMHA's attempt to use false statements to create controversy in the midst of this tragedy,' the statement said. 'While thousands of people of good will are uniting to alleviate the suffering, NMHA officials are sowing discord.'

The church, which said it has sent 759 volunteer ministers to New York since the attack, promised to deliver a letter to the NMHA on Tuesday protesting what it called 'petty turf wars.'

NMHA spokesman Mark Helmke said at least one television outlet, Fox News, publicized a toll-free number for the church last week as one to call for people seeking mental health counseling. A Fox official in New York confirmed the number was on the screen for about two hours.

'Someone who called that number found out what it was and then they called us immediately and then we took it down immediately,' said the official, who declined to be quoted by name.

A press release sent to Fox identified the number as belonging to the National Mental Health Assistance crisis hot line.

'The National Mental Health Hot Line is open and available to anyone in need of help -- or anyone who would like to assist the victims,' the release said. It made no mention of Scientology.

'Here they create a National Mental Health Assistance organization, with the same initials as our organization's and convince one major news outlet to post their mental health number, and what does it go to? It goes to a place where they are trying to get people to join Scientology,' said Helmke.

'It's clear they aren't trying to help people with mental health but to get them to join their cult,' he said.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:11:22 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Why didn't M send in DUO?
Message:
how much did fox news charge them for having the phone listed for 2 hours?
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:05:29 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More opportunists
Message:

[ Terror Financers use Put Options ]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:10:45 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: More opportunists
Message:
I'm an opportunist. I saw the link to Comics and put it in bookmarks. But all joking aside, that is very interesting. No stone is unturned. interesting how they beat us at the game they condemn us of playing.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:20:39 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: But not that clever
Message:
Following the money trail back to the punters may be very interesting. I bet the terror financers are shitting themselves right now and trying to cover their tracks.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:43:25 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: But not that clever
Message:
Keep us posted on that one, will you. I also appreciate the funny pages. Not that the EPO funny pages aren't welcomed.

I know, we need our own comic strip. Anyone good at drawing RawRat funnies?

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:55:01 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: DUO's Mental Health Work.
Message:
Hi Jim,

DUO did indeed do work with the mentally ill in the 80s in London.

We toured Mental hospitals, doing plays for the residential patients. We started out with 245 volunteers, but after only 6 performances, we only had 4 left. 239 of the participants were detained inside the institutions. Friends and relatives had to work hard to get their loved ones out. Apparently some are still there, telling folk they are disciples of Jesus or channels for aliens or something.

The other two ran off to the South of France together to make babies.

Anth the social historian with a certificate of sanity. (They wouldn't let me out without it.)

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:33:57 (EDT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: DUO's Mental Health Work.
Message:
Hi Anth
I was on a team, that toured the mental hospitals also

One women , i still know about, went out , became a premie
and have never been in the hospital since.
She is now married , got 2 kids , and have a job , a life
for 25 years, still a premie .

Who is going to tell her about e.p.o.

Ulf

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:46:09 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Pundit Watch re 'the War'
Message:
In the wake of the devastating attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, many media pundits focused on one theme: retaliation, which I guess is understandable, but some of it is frightening. For some, it did not matter who bears the brunt of an American attack:

'There is only one way to begin to deal with people like this, and that is you have to kill some of them even if they are not immediately directly involved in this thing.'
--former Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger (CNN, 9/11/01)

'The response to this unimaginable 21st-century Pearl Harbor should be as simple as it is swift-- kill the bastards. A gunshot between the eyes, blow them to smithereens, poison them if you have to. As for cities or countries that host these worms, bomb them into basketball courts.'
--Steve Dunleavy (New York Post, 9/12/01)
[Although this paper has about as much credibility as the National Enquirer]

'America roused to a righteous anger has always been a force for good. States that have been supporting if not Osama bin Laden, people like him need to feel pain. If we flatten part of Damascus or Tehran or whatever it takes, that is part of the solution.'
--Rich Lowry, National Review editor, to Howard Kurtz (Washington Post,9/13/01)

'At a bare minimum, tactical nuclear capabilites should be used against the bin Laden camps in the desert of Afghanistan. To do less would be rightly seen by the poisoned minds that orchestrated these attacks as cowardice on the part of the United States and the current administration.'
--Former Defense Intelligence Agency officer Thomas Woodrow, 'Time to Use the Nuclear Option' (Washington Times, 9/14/01)

[Yikes!]

Bill O'Reilly: 'If the Taliban government of Afghanistan does not cooperate, then we will damage that government with air power, probably. All right? We will blast them, because...'

Sam Husseini, Institute for Public Accuracy: 'Who will you kill in the process?'

O'Reilly: 'Doesn't make any difference.'
--('The O'Reilly Factor,' Fox News Channel, 9/13/01)

'This is no time to be precious about locating the exact individuals directly involved in this particular terrorist attack.... We should invade
their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.'

--Syndicated columnist Ann Coulter (New York Daily News, 9/12/01)

As conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer (Washington Post, 9/12/01)
wrote: 'One of the reasons there are enough terrorists out there capable and deadly enough to carry out the deadliest attack on the United States in its history is that, while they have declared war on us, we have in the past responded (with the exception of a few useless cruise missile attacks on empty tents in the desert) by issuing subpoenas.'

New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman wondered (9/13/01):
'Surely Islam, a grand religion that never perpetrated the sort of Holocaust against the Jews in its midst that Europe did, is being distorted when it is treated as a guidebook for suicide bombing. How is it that not a single
Muslim leader will say that?'

Of course, many Muslims would-- and did-- say just that. Political and civil leaders throughout the Muslim world have condemned the attacks, and Muslim clerics throughout the Middle East have given sermons refuting the idea that targeting civilians is a tenet of Islam (BBC, 9/14/01; Washington
Post 9/17/01).

Why They Hate Us

As the media investigation focused on Osama bin Laden, news outlets still provided little information about what fuels his fanaticism. Instead of a serious inquiry into anti-U.S. sentiment in the Middle East and elsewhere, many commentators media offered little more than self-congratulatory rhetoric, or that the attackers 'hate freedom':

This nation symbolizes freedom, strength, tolerance, and democratic principles dedicated to both liberty and peace. To the tyrants, the despots, the closed societies, there are no alterations to the policies, no gestures we can make, no words we can say that will convince those determined to continue their hate.'
--Charles G. Boyd (Washington Post, 9/12/01)

'Are Americans afraid to face the reality that there is a significant portion of this world's population that hates America, hates what freedom represents, hates the fact that we fight for freedom worldwide, hates our prosperity, hates our way of life? Have we been unwilling to face that very difficult reality?'
--Sean Hannity (Fox News Channel, 9/13/01)

One exception was ABC's Jim Wooten (World News Tonight, 9/12/01), who tried to shed some light on what might motivate some anti-U.S. sentiment in the Middle East, reporting that 'Arabs see the U.S. as an accomplice of Israel, a partner in what they believe is the ruthless repression of Palestinian aspirations for land and independence.' Wooten continued: 'The most
provocative issues: Israel's control over Islamic holy sites in Jerusalem; the stationing of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia near some of Islam's holiest sites; and economic sanctions against Iraq, which have been seen to deprive
children there of medicine and food.'

Stories like Wooten's, which examine the U.S.'s highly contentious role in the Middle East and illuminate some of the forces that can give rise to violent extremism, contribute far more to public security than do pundits calling for indiscriminate revenge.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:44:45 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: egad, the pundits are crazy [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:23:00 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: What really freaked me....
Message:
I saw Dan Rather on Letterman the other night, and Letterman said that whatever George W. Bush did was fine, and he was his president and he would cooperate and do whatever is necessary for him to do what he needs to do.

This scares me, because Dan Rather, who has been attacked by right wing groups as being too 'liberal,' is a journalist, a news commentator. It's his job to reveal what's going on and present all sides, not just fall in line behind his leader. What he said kind of shocked me, although I'm sure it's very popular at the moment.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:48:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Pundit Watch re 'the War'
Message:
Joe:

The only one of those 'pundits' that I've seen is Eagleburger, and I didn't think he was particularly knowledgable. Anyway, all of that is understandable anger. On my rowing group one normally sedate individual expressed the opinion that we treat Afghanistan the way Rome dealt with Carthage, wondering where we'd find enough salt. It wasn't hard for him to understand that Afghanistan was already pretty barrenBut what I've seen from the people actually capable of *doing something* is pretty much the right thing: a multi-level multi-target, multi-focussed long term *campaign* that seems to contain most of the policy elements you espouse: some accomodation of the Palestinians, increased aid to the Moslem world, and willingness to target despotic regimes without wholesale war on their populations. What are you worried about, exactly? I mean exactly? I don't see it.
Not that there isn't a lot to be worried about.

If you stand looking at El Capitan it's pretty easy to be overwhelmed with the difficulty, or even possibility, of the climb. The handholds are invisible at that distance and it just looks like a wall. Climbing it is a one step hand over hand process, where each step could send you crashing. But lots of people have climbed El Capitan over the years. If you *have* to do something, it becomes possible.

--Scott

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:17:30 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Multiple Scott
Message:
What are you worried about, exactly? I mean exactly? I don't see it. Not that there isn't a lot to be worried about.

Right....I guess....in your otherwise inscrutible post, I think you hit the nail on the head. You don't see it and then you do. There is indeed a lot to be worried about, I agree with you on that.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:41:05 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'll have a double Scott on the Rocks, please
Message:
I was a little worried about Patty's brother-in-law and my friend Jim who worked right across the street from WTC in the Merril Lynch building. I was a little worried about his sweet wife Christine and his three girls who were all in Lower Manhattan last Tuesday. I was a little worried about Scott and his partner in Brooklyn, where they witnessed the attack first hand. I was a little worried about Moe and Noel in Tribeca.

On second thought, make that a triple. I'm still shaking...

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:53:27 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The Bush/Cheney plan.
Message:
There is plenty of spin about Afganistan and targeting specific terrorists, but Rumsfeld said it on sunday, I cant quote at the moment, but the way I read him was that America will be invading Iraq,
Iran, Afganistan and Sudan and who knows who else.

The target is any countries with Clerics running the show, and of course Saddam has to go, and Sudan will come under the gun.

Call me delusional, but I truly believe that is what we will all be seeing.
The mission is cloaked in secrecy, the blabber is all about bin laden,
but the 5 men at the top of the usa really feel that this is thier only chance to stop the islamic attempt to rule the world.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:42:23 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: The Bush/Cheney plan.
Message:
bill:

It's a little ambitious isn't it? I mean, all at once? Hope they hit Saddam though. Saddam has the best propaganda machine of any of them. Bin Laden certainly doesn't have very much in the way of propaganda, by comparison. He's essentially a scribbler. We have one piece of evidence connecting the suicide pilot to Iraqi intelligence. Not conclusive proof that Saddam was involved, but a bit more and they'll have enough to go after him.

More Americans killed on Sept. 11, 2001 than on the D-Day Normandy Invasion, and more than the *total* Americans killed in the American Revolution. Also more than the Spanish/American War, the War of 1812, and a number of others.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:57:02 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I think you should read the above post. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:51:59 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: But hopefully worry turned to relief.
Message:
Gerry:

Not what we're talking about, but I gather everything turned out alright? I think the time for worry about the victims is passed. It's now the time for grief. The uncertainty is gone.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:35:11 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Multi-Scott
Message:
Joe:

I mean, I don't see what *you're' worried about. I'm worried (or perhaps I should call it 'concerned') that we won't react with appropriate force, or that we'll allow the seeds of hatred to flourish, or that we'll make a strategic mistake in establishing this coalition, or that we'll leave some virulent terrorist cell in place, or that we won't treat the 'undecideds' with adequate respect and lose them. But I don't see any evidence of that yet. On the contrary, I haven't seen this administration make a single significant mistake since the crisis started. Yeah, there are lots of things to 'worry' about, but is there reason to worry right now, beyond the mere fact of uncertainty? I really don't think so. I really don't.

-Scott Shot

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:14:15 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Joe (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:46:11 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Who cares why they hate us?
Message:
What's it really matter, why they hate us? People are talking about, lots, but perhaps not with the attention you'd like. But I wonder, what difference does it make? Are you suggesting that maybe it's time for the U.S. to change something, make itself more acceptable to these Islamic extremists? Perhaps extend a few heartfelt apologies and say we won't do it again?
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:11:31 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Who cares why they hate us?
Message:
I think quite a few New Yorkers wonder.

I remember just a week ago seeing a New Yorker on TV saying (words to the effect) 'I didn't know we were hated so much. Why do they hate us so much? What am I going to tell my son?'

Dealing with questions that start with Why ... is OK. It is often highly useful in coming to an understanding of the world.

The idea is not to make the West more acceptable to 'Islamic' extremists, but to ensure than our reactions do not squander the immense sympathy for the States that is presently felt throughout the world.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:10:13 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Good point, John
Message:
The idea is not to make the West more acceptable to 'Islamic' extremists, but to ensure than our reactions do not squander the immense sympathy for the States that is presently felt throughout the world.

That's a very good point.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:57:13 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, are you serious??
Message:
The reason it matters why people hate America is that if the conditions for that hatred remain, then Bush's war is doomed to failure. You're a rational man, so apply reason to this. America can either wipe out all the people who could possibly hate America, or can try to understand why people hate America, deal with the causes, be vigilant in defense, and of course apprehend or kill those whose hatred has gone too far.

John.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:02:09 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Now, I agree with THAT!
Message:
Good reasons, to be concerned about why people in the Middle East hate or dislike us; but I thought the issue was why the *terrorists* hate us. Whether they do or not is irrelevant, because that's not why they acted. Not essentially anyway.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:49:41 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ever heard of 'know your enemy?'
Message:
That's one good reason.

Another is just what Anth said. Plus, it just isn't helpful at all for the US to see itself as pure and the hatred towards it completely unjustified. I think we ought to be informed about how we are perceived. And I completely disagree with you if you mean 'people' are the media, because they aren't 'talking about it lots.'

Moreover, they should have been talking lots about it long before this ever happened.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:40:27 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Ever heard of 'know your enemy?'
Message:
Joe, the only reasons you've given why Arabs hate us is becasue we support Israel (as if we've never supported Arab nations as well), and that the war on Iraq and subsequent sanctions has got all of the Arab world in a tizzy. Conveniently, you forget that there wasn't a single Arab nation that wasn't part of the coalition that invaded Iraq during the Gulf war. If you want to know your enemy maybe you should consider the remarks made by bin Laden that it is the sacred duty of Muslims to kill Americans. It's a religious obligation to this guy. And remember, this Arab who's heart is so overflowing from grief over what is being done to his fellow Arabs (not) heads an organization called Al Quadia (sp) that's the equivalent of Murder, Inc. In return for sanctuary from the Taliban, he launches terrorist attacks on their beloved Arab brethren, the Northern Alliance who themselves have made it clearly known that anytime the USA calls they will gladly kill their fellow Arabs, as well. So, this argument that Arabs are a united front against the Great Satan from the west doesn't really hold up to scrutiny, Joe. Islamic Fundamentalists, not Arabs, are united in their cause against the Great Satan. A distinction needs to be made here. Not all Arabs hate Americans and not all Arabs love Arabs.

Islam does not allow peace between a Moslem and an infidel --Ayatollal Khomeini

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:22:15 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Huh?
Message:
God Jerry, I never suggested that whatever grievances these terrorists had justified what they did. Of course they don't.

Conveniently, you forget that there wasn't a single Arab nation that wasn't part of the coalition that invaded Iraq during the Gulf war

Jerry, I think I said that bin Laden also hates the governments in the Middle East that supported the West, not only in the Gulf War, but otherwise, including his home country of Saudi Arabia.

So, this argument that Arabs are a united front against the Great Satan from the west doesn't really hold up to scrutiny, Joe.

Hello? Earth to Jerry? I don't know where you got the stupid idea that I said that Arabs were 'united against the Great Satan?' That's just a ridiculous idea, completely false, and I never even suggested it.

My point was, an perhaps I need to spell it out more clearly, is that we need to understand how we are perceived, how our actions in the Middle East and elsewhere are perceived. It just isn't very helpful to have a completey black and white 'we good - they bad' mentality, which is what the US media is mainly espousing at the moment.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:22:15 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yeah, know your enemy.
Message:
Joe:

Plus, it just isn't helpful at all for the US to see itself as pure and the hatred towards it completely unjustified.

Largely unjustified, maybe. I don't know how to make this any plainer. They didn't do this *because* they have a reason to hate us. They don't need a reason. But if you want to get into that, they hate us because we accept homosexuality as 'normal,' because we have strip clubs, because we allow women to have careers, because we're more successful than they are, because we're the big dog on the block, because we elevate acquisition over being devout and because we do it better than they; because they long for the glory days of Islam.

It would be useful if we were cognizant of why some people in the Middle East hate us, but not that group. They're in it for the glory. Know your enemy, for heaven sake! Jesus, you'd think you'd never seen a cult!

Why don't they hate us? Because we're just, forgiving, generous, fair, wise. Ah, but you don't think we *are* any of those things. I can't imagine how you deal with this. Really. No wonder you're trying to strike a match on the surface of a puddle.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:33:24 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: That's just absurd, Scott
Message:
I'm sorry you tire in your efforts to educate me, but you might need to get some rest because you completely miss my point, and as is often your wont, you want to argue what you think I said and not what I actually did. That's your right, but it will likely make you tired.

Largely unjustified, maybe. I don't know how to make this any plainer. They didn't do this *because* they have a reason to hate us. They don't need a reason.

People don't just hate for no reason. It might be a nutty reason, it might be legitimate or completely misinformed, but people have their reasons and we are in the best position if we understand what they are.

In interviews with Alan Fisk and others, bin Laden has stated, with lots of venom, but quite cogently, why he hates the USA, and the reasons for hating us are largely what I said they are. Maybe he also hates for the reasons you state, but I don't know that. If it's so true that equality of women and acceptance of homosexuality were reasons, you would think the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden, where women are even more independent, which have higher standards of living than the US and which allow gays to marry, would be in big trouble. No, it's other things that have made that ground fertile for extremism.

And the other point you completely miss is that we aren't just talking about these so-called 'terrorists.' If they didn't have popular support among the population of the Middle East, they wouldn't be able to exist, and the reason they have some measure of popular support is because of how the USA is perceived, and not just culturally or economically.

It's also how we are perceived as imperialist, one-sided in foreign policy, and in supporting regimes in the Middle East that repress their people, not to mention that we have dropped bombs on civilians, and contributed to the deaths of 500,000 children in Iraq. bin Laden says he is pissed by that, but so are the people who support him, who join his cult of terrorists, and who lie about, and distort Islam to support their views. They are a murderous, hateful group, but they didn't just arise from nowhere, and it's absurd to say they just hate for the hell of it.

That's why, to me, it just isn't at all helpful for Bush to say that these people did this because they 'hate freedom.' That might be a nice sound bite, a nice, simple, easy thing for the American public to digest without getting into the complications, but I think somebody has got to talk about the fact that it just isn't that simple. And if we do, I think we are better off.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:17:55 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why it matters.
Message:
What's it really matter, why they hate us? People are talking about, lots, but perhaps not with the attention you'd like. But I wonder, what difference does it make? Are you suggesting that maybe it's time for the U.S. to change something, make itself more acceptable to these Islamic extremists? Perhaps extend a few heartfelt apologies and say we won't do it again?


---

Hi Jim,

It matters why they hate us because, if know the reason, maybe we can do something about stopping it at source, instead of simply reacting to it once it's manifest itself.

It is time for the US to change something in its foreign policy, which is seen, not just by extremists, as being anti Arab and anti Moslem. It wouldn't hurt the US to support democracy in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Algeria etc. Not to mention- in fact, let's not mention it Jim.

Criticising US Foreign Policy doesn't mean you support terrorism.

Anth watching the ships sail out to war.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:51:54 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Why it matters.
Message:
It wouldn't hurt the US to support democracy in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Algeria etc.

Yeah, that's what bin Laden is interested in. All we have to do is promote democracy in those nations and he'll cool it, along with all those other freedom loving fundamentalists, like the Taliban and Khomeini. Don't make me laugh. In fact, it's to late, you already have.

LOL

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:05:19 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Terrorists don't grow on trees.
Message:
It wouldn't hurt the US to support democracy in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Algeria etc.

Yeah, that's what bin Laden is interested in. All we have to do is promote democracy in those nations and he'll cool it, along with all those other freedom loving fundamentalists, like the Taliban and Khomeini. Don't make me laugh. In fact, it's to late, you already have.

LOL


---

Hey Jerry,

Where do you think terrorists come from? They don't drop off trees. They are reacting against something. It doesn't come out of thin air. Or do you agree with Tony Blair, and tbink they are simply 'evil'?

Anth Lots Of Love to you too.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:12:13 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Or is it that they 'hate freedom?'
Message:
Like George W. Bush has been repeating the past few days. Some people just 'hate freedom' and so they blow up buildings and kill thousands of people. Right. Real simple.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:00:45 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Terrorists don't grow on trees.
Message:
Anth,

Let's put it this way. Maybe some people are natural born pychopaths who just need an outlet for their psychosis. In the Arab world, Islamic Fundamentalism provides such an outlet. Mind you, I'm not saying all Muslims are fundamentalists. There's an estimated 2 billion Muslims in the world. That's more than Christians and Jews combined. But there's only an estimated 100 million fundamentalists in that bunch. Most Muslims are peace loving individuals. How come they're not mostly hate driven 'holy warriors'. I think it's because they don't have the temperament for that, just as most laid-off employees don't show up on the job with automatic weapons to kill their former boss and associates, or most kids aren't psychopaths who gun down their classmates in a rage, or just as most people are hardworking law abiding citizens and not criminals. Different types of people emerge from similar circumstances in different ways depending on their makeup. Saints and sinners come from the same mix. It all depends on what you're made of.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:31:49 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: making enemies
Message:
most laid-off employees don't show up on the job with automatic weapons to kill their former boss and associates, or most kids aren't psychopaths who gun down their classmates in a rage

These events seem to happen more in the States than in other countries. That raises the possibility that there is something in the social conditions that favours the emergence of this kind of behaviour. It may be as simple as the ready availability of guns -- or it may be more involved.

Terrorism is not (usually) an isolated act by an isolated individual, but is much more a group phenomena, so the enquiry into Why ... may look more at social circumstances and less at individual psychpathology. Bluntly, for every active terrorist combatant, you are likely to find dozens of non-combatant supporters; many more passive supporters; and vast numbers of sympathisers for the cause who decry the terrorists methods.

This hard core surrounded by increasingly softer layers of support is what makes a guerilla campaign hard to defeat with merely bombs and bullets. Actions need to avoid moving folk from soft to hardline support, even as they neutralise the combatants.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:46:56 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Guns
Message:
These events seem to happen more in the States than in other countries. That raises the possibility that there is something in the social conditions that favours the emergence of this kind of behaviour. It may be as simple as the ready availability of guns -- or it may be more involved.

John, the ready availability of guns in the USA, even very sophisticated automatic weapons, cannot be underestimated. I agre that American culture is more violent, but I think if guns were as available elsewhere, there would be much of the same happening in other countries.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:52:56 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: PS
Message:
I bet even Khomeini is rolling in his grave, Anth.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:35:01 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Boy do I ever disagree with THAT!
Message:
It is time for the US to change something in its foreign policy, which is seen, not just by extremists, as being anti Arab and anti Moslem. It wouldn't hurt the US to support democracy in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Algeria etc. Not to mention- in fact, let's not mention it Jim.

It is not time to do anything but get these bastards and their supporters. The U.S. is damned by these guys no matter what it does in the countries you've mentioned. 'Support democracy' more than it does and it's an intrusive, arrogant bully. Accept and work with the local governments and the Muslim extremists have just one more reason to blast it -- literally, unfortunately -- as an evil support for the regimes they'd like to topple.

This is religious extremism spawning deadly fanaticism. There's nothing to negotiate, as far as I can tell. And if by democracy in places like Algeria you're talking about a system that would allow an Islamic theocracy to trample the rights of the population, no, I don't think the U.S. need support that at all. It's a god damned mess over there and right now all we need to do is figure out how to strike back as fairly and effectively as possible. It's not a time for self-criticism for the states much as so many people would love to make it so.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:22:53 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim how would you do that?
Message:
It is time for the US to change something in its foreign policy, which is seen, not just by extremists, as being anti Arab and anti Moslem. It wouldn't hurt the US to support democracy in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Algeria etc. Not to mention- in fact, let's not mention it Jim.

It is not time to do anything but get these bastards and their supporters. The U.S. is damned by these guys no matter what it does in the countries you've mentioned. 'Support democracy' more than it does and it's an intrusive, arrogant bully. Accept and work with the local governments and the Muslim extremists have just one more reason to blast it -- literally, unfortunately -- as an evil support for the regimes they'd like to topple.

This is religious extremism spawning deadly fanaticism. There's nothing to negotiate, as far as I can tell. And if by democracy in places like Algeria you're talking about a system that would allow an Islamic theocracy to trample the rights of the population, no, I don't think the U.S. need support that at all. It's a god damned mess over there and right now all we need to do is figure out how to strike back as fairly and effectively as possible. It's not a time for self-criticism for the states much as so many people would love to make it so.


---

How exactly will you get 'these bastards and their supporters'? Do you have their addresses? Does the US government? As far as I can tell, 'these bastards' died when the planes disintegrated. Are you refering to some other bastards? But seriously, tell me your plans. Has the US been sleeping since the last attack on WTC? I think not. Did the US intelligence services predict or prevent this attack? No. So what makes you think they can accurately target the guilty people? And if they can't then any military attack will kill innocent people, just like those working in the WTC last Tuesday morning. Do you support that?

So what are your plans to get the bastards?

John.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:46:32 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Boy do I ever disagree with THAT!
Message:
It's not a time for self-criticism for the states much as so many people would love to make it so.

And I would add that there's good reason to believe we're exercising pretty good judgment at the moment. We're winning over the right people and groups, frustrating the fuck out of UBL, and dealing with our own grief like grownups, not to mention having inspired and witnessed absolutely phenomenal courage by our citizens. Don't know what the hell we could be doing better, under the circumstances. But I always did prefer a jig to wailing and gnashing of teeth. Character defect.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:05:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I think Tom Clancy's got it right
Message:
How We Got Here:
First we crippled the CIA. Then we blamed it.

BY TOM CLANCY
Tuesday, September 18, 2001 12:01 a.m. EDT

We know now that America has been the victim of a large, well-planned, and well-executed terrorist act. The parameters are yet to be fully explored, but that won't stop the usual suspects from pontificating (and, yes, that includes me) on what happened and what needs to be done as a result. A few modest observations:

• As I write this we only know the rough outlines of what has taken place. We do not know exactly who the perpetrators were, though we have heard from Vice President Dick Cheney that there is 'no question' that Osama bin Laden had a role. But many groups may have been involved, and we do not know their motivation, or for whom or for what particular objective they worked.

• 'Don't know' means 'don't know' and nothing more. Absent hard information, talking about who it must have been and what we need to do about it is a waste of air and energy. To discern the important facts, we have the Federal Bureau of Investigation as our principal investigative agency, and the Central Intelligence Agency (along with National Security Agency and the Defense Intelligence Agency) as our principal foreign-intelligence services. Getting the most important information is their job, not the job of the news media, which will only repeat what they are told. Gathering this information will take time, because we need to get it right.

• Terrorism is a political act, performed for political objectives. The general aim of terrorism is to force changes in the targeted society through the shock value of the crime committed. Therefore, if we make radical changes in how our country operates, the bad guys win. We do not want that to happen. Whoever planned this operation is watching us right now, and they are probably having a pretty good laugh. We can't stop that. What we can do is to maintain that which they most hate, which is a free society. We've worked too hard to become what we are, and we can't allow a few savages to change it for us.

Next, our job is to take a step back, take a deep breath and get to work finding out who it was, where they are, and what to do about it.

Terrorism is a crime under the civil law when committed by domestic terrorists; it can be an act of war when committed by foreigners. For domestic criminals we have the FBI and police. For acts of war we have our intelligence community and the military. In either case we have well-trained people to do the work. If we let them do their job, and give them the support they need, the job will get done as reliably as gravity.
The foreign-source option seems the most likely at this time. The first line of defense in such a case is the intelligence community. The CIA is an agency of about 18,000 employees, of whom perhaps 800 are field-intelligence officers--that is, the people who go out on the street and learn what people are thinking, not how many tanks they have parked outside (we have satellites to photograph those).

I've been saying for a lot of years that this number is too small. American society doesn't love its CIA, for the same reason that it doesn't always love its cops. We too often regard them as a threat to ourselves rather than our enemies. Perhaps these incidents will make us rethink that.

The best defense against terrorist incidents is to prevent them from happening. You do that by finding out what a potential enemy is thinking before he is able to act. What the field intelligence officers do is no different from what Special Agent Joe Pistone of the FBI did when he infiltrated the mafia under the cover name of Donnie Brasco. The purpose of these operations is to find out what people are thinking and talking about. However good your satellites are, they cannot see inside a human head. Only people can go and do that.

But America, and especially the American news media, does not love the CIA in general and the field spooks in particular. As recently as two weeks ago, CBS's '60 Minutes' regaled us with the hoary old chestnut about how the CIA undermined the leftist government of Chile three decades ago. The effect of this media coverage, always solicitous to leftist governments, is to brand the CIA an antiprogressive agency that does Bad Things.

In fact, the CIA is a government agency, subject to the political whims of whoever sits in the White House and Congress. The CIA does what the government of which it is a part tells it to do. Whatever evil the CIA may have done was the result of orders from above.

The Chilean event and others (for example, attempts to remove Fidel Castro from the land of the living, undertaken during the presidency of JFK, rather more rarely reported because only good came from Camelot) caused the late Sen. Frank Church to help gut the CIA's Directorate of Operations in the 1970s. What he carelessly left undisturbed then fell afoul of the Carter administration's hit man, Stansfield Turner. That capability has never been replaced.

It is a lamentably common practice in Washington and elsewhere to shoot people in the back and then complain when they fail to win the race. The loss of so many lives in New York and Washington is now called an 'intelligence failure,' mostly by those who crippled the CIA in the first place, and by those who celebrated the loss of its invaluable capabilities.
What a pity that they cannot stand up like adults now and say: 'See, we gutted our intelligence agencies because we don't much like them, and now we can bury thousands of American citizens as an indirect result.' This, of course, will not happen, because those who inflict their aesthetic on the rest of us are never around to clean up the resulting mess, though they seem to enjoy further assaulting those whom they crippled to begin with.

Call it the law of unintended consequences. The intelligence community was successfully assaulted for actions taken under constitutionally mandated orders, and with nothing left to replace what was smashed, warnings we might have had to prevent this horrid event never came. Of course, neither I nor anyone else can prove that the warnings would have come, and I will not invoke the rhetoric of the political left on so sad an occasion as this.

But the next time America is in a fight, it is well to remember that tying one's own arm is unlikely to assist in preserving, protecting and defending what is ours.

Mr. Clancy is a novelist.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:53:13 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: He's mostly right
Message:
I pretty much agree with everything Clancy said, especially at the beginning, and I also agree that the key to all this is better intelligence, although I disagree with his historical perceptions of what happened to the CIA.

But the CIA's failures are legendary, including that they didn't even figure out that the Soviet Union was falling apart until it happened. Of course, this failure enabled us to spend billions more on the military and weapon systems in the 80s than we needed to, so maybe that was intentional.

The CIA is an agency of about 18,000 employees, of whom perhaps 800 are field-intelligence officers--that is, the people who go out on the street and learn what people are thinking, not how many tanks they have parked outside (we have satellites to photograph those).

The decision to rely on technology instead of spies on the ground, did not come from anywhere besides the CIA itself. This was not due to lack of funding, or due to any limitations put on the CIA by Presidents or Congress, although it was with their complicity. I agree completely that this is the problem, and it will take years to get the resources to do what they need to do, and what they have frittered away. The love affair with technology, instead of the "dirty" kind of spying, is really a hold-over from the Cold War.

No, the CIA has always been a lilly-white ivy-league run organization, that has never done a very good job, partly because it isn't open to public scrutiny, doesn't have any competition, and especially during the Cold War, was considered sacrosanct. So, it really doesn't need to be effective to ensure its survival.

It became an organization mired in the Cold War, and has never figured out how to operate in a changed world. It was also riddled with spies, like Aldrich Ames, with no effective means to root them out, and lost its effectiveness, and morale, and many of its spies, that way. True, the presidents and Congress should have been giving direction about this, so the failures are all around. The public can't be blamed, because it basically has no idea what the CIA is doing or not doing. All we see are the results. In fact, the CIA's entire budget isn't even public information, but part of the "black budget."

In fact, the CIA is a government agency, subject to the political whims of whoever sits in the White House and Congress. The CIA does what the government of which it is a part tells it to do. Whatever evil the CIA may have done was the result of orders from above.

This is true, although much less so than it used to be. Kennedy did use the CIA to go after Castro, and even used the CIA to pretend that the USA military wasn't involved in the disastrous Bay of Pigs invasion. And as we know, using the CIA to overthrow Allende, and using the CIA to thwart the Watergate investigation, were part of the Kissenger/Nixon regime and transgressions that should have been exposed, and actions taken to prevent them from occurring again. This is what the "reforms" were about -- to make it harder for the leaders to use the CIA for their own purposes, or to assassinate the elected leaders of other countries.

Reforms to the CIA in the 70s under Ford after the Church hearings, including the prohibition against assassinating leaders of other countries (the CIA is only prohibited from assassinating the LEADER of the country, not anyone else, contrary to what Clancy is suggesting and what the media implies, and even only has had that limitation since 1976. I heard Bill Clinton remind people of this on TV last night, and in fact Clinton put out a directive on bin Laden's life three years ago, citing the exception to the rule, since he isn't the leader of a country.) This was the result of the Allende assassination and some others, successful and unsuccessful. The failure to ever kill Castro, despite numerous opportunities, if that was indeed the directive, speaks for itself, as did the disastrous failure of the CIA at the Bay of Pigs, initiated by Eisenhower, and carried through by Kennedy.

The other thing that was a 'reform' of the CIA after the Church hearings, that Clancy apparently doesn't like, is that the CIA was supposed to confine its activities overseas, and let the FBI handle domestic operations.

The Church hearings revealed, for example, that the CIA and the FBI tapped phones of American citizens simply on the suspicion of a neighbor that somebody was suspicious, (aka a "communist" during the red-baiting era in the USA, etc).

That was outlawed by the reforms of the 70s, but to suggest that the CIA has been crippled because of regulations just isn't true. True, it's a moribund, bureaucratic, inefficient, and perhaps not very well run agency, but an organization like that is very hard to reform. I mean, it isn't like they have a competitor or something like that. They don't even have to show efficiency, profitability, or even, apparently, effectiveness.

The truth is, the two agencies, (FBI and CIA, and also ATF and the military intelligence services) being the macho cowboys they can be, have often been in direct competition and often at cross purposes with each other, and the various major embarrassing failures of the FBI in the past few years might arise from that, too. There has been a tremendous lack of coordination, and any number of books written by former agents say just that.

Plus, there are the intelligence services of the Pentagon like the NSA, the ATF department, and other, decentralized intelligence operations of the US Government, that just aren't coordinated very well. It's more a matter of disorganization and cross-purposes than anything else and isn't due to lack of funding.

It's kind of in the same vein of why do you have an Air Force, plus another Air Force as part of the Navy, plus the Army Air Corps, plus the Airborne divisions of the Marines, plus, god knows what, all with separate "air forces?" In the private sector you would never get away with such inefficiency, but then there's politics and government, and such things happen. But again, the military is a very difficult institution to reform, although Rumsfeld says he is going to do it, but we will see about that.

One good thing about all this, is that the enormity of the terrorist events will likely result in a lot more cooperation between the FBI and the CIA and the other intelligence services.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:37:08 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: So do I
Message:
I spoke with a professor who uncovered incredible information for the gov't regarding computer cyberstalking and crimes wrote a book about it. He is friends with Tom Clancy.

I also met Daniel Sheehan, the General Council of the Christic Institute, the guy who investigated the LaPenca Bombing of Nicauraguan Commadante Eden Pastora when he was getting ready to 'announce the CIA involvement' at an International Press Conference in 1980(?) Three journalists were killed (LaPenca didn't die, the bomb exploded before he got to the podium).

More covert crime is done by Ex-CIA agents. Many of these agents were amongst those mentioned by Clancy's referral to Sen. Frank Church to help gut the CIA's Directorate of Operations in the 1970s.
Not only that, but the same ex-CIA operators were involved in the debacle known as the 'Iran-Contra Case' which Daniel Sheehan discovered as a result of following the trail from the LaPenca bombing.

However, the orders also come from the top, Clancy is absolutely right. And who was President during the Iran-contra case? Reagan and VP was Bush. Bush was the one who gave the orders.

The web is difficult to untangle. A lot the American people don't know. But power is used and abused. Many members of the CIA who want to do their job right are also stopped in their tracks when their are in the path of covert business dealings.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:11:58 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: I think Tom Clancy's got it right
Message:
Terrorism is a crime under the civil law when committed by domestic terrorists; it can be an act of war when committed by foreigners. For domestic criminals we have the FBI and police. For acts of war we have our intelligence community and the military.

I heard Dick Gephart on CNN Townhall mumble with great conviction about 'bringing the perpertrators to justice' and wanted to ask: 'Just what justice would be appropriate? Should they be drawn and quartered, hung by their testacles, skinned alive?' We have absolutely no obligation to seek justice in the courts, and I can scarcely imagine a reason for doing so. If anyone has a better imagination than I, speak up. Apart from obligation or reason, I'm not sure there are legal grounds for a trial within the US. If we did that wouldn't it be violating the principle of national sovereignty? (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) Don't we try war criminals in an international tribunal? Or are we just making up the rules as we go along? And would the UN be willing to make an exception to it's rule against capital punishment?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:43:37 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: That would be one of the best things
Message:
If the perpetrators were captured and tried in the international war crimes tribunal, like the trials of perpetrators of genocide in Yugoslavia, I think that would be the very best result. It would have the advantage of bringing everything out in the open, letting the whole world condem and punish the perpetrators.

I doubt there is any chance it will occur, however.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:35:48 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: our foreign policy
Message:
Agreed, Anth, and thanks for posting punditry from all over, Joe.

America has saved many lives through foreign aid and timely military intervention in the last hundred years. America has also been responsible (with others) for hundreds of thousands of deaths in places like Nicaragua, Guatemala, Chile, Indonesia etc. (And, although this is less clearcut: the Mideast.) American people have been generally ignorant about much of this (kept in the dark or willfully ignorant; take your pick).

Americans should be able to point out our government's shortcomings - everybody else is, for God's sakes - plus, it's OUR government. However, it's going to be even harder than it has been to criticize our foreign policy. Such criticism will bring on the charge that we want to change foreign policy to appease the terrorists.

No, some of us have always criticized the cruelest actions of our government. And some of our stances have led us to being so hated, so it is certainly relevant.

I am no longer a hippie Gandhi-wannabe, and wouldn't mind if we killed a bunch of people who want to kill us. (And have begun killing us!) But let's keep talking about how things got this way.

By the way, some of the punditry has been better than I expected. The commentators realize (for the most part) the futility of simply bombing the fuck out of Afghanistan. There is nothing easy about trying to get to these terrorists. Unfortunately, there is nothing hard about them trying to get to us, especially living in this free and multicutural land.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:50:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Sorry Gregg
Message:
I had no right to brand you as more incompetent than the rest of us. Lord knows I make lapses of judgment too. All I had to say was that I thought you were wrong. Guess things are getting to me... But, I believe we can do something to make the world safe, and I don't believe we've killed 'hundreds of thousands of innocent people' either. Jesus, Delta wouldn't even kill Pablo Escobar directly. They let the Columbians do it themselves.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:02:54 (EDT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Sorry Gregg
Message:
Scott: the point I made about how easy it is for bad guys to kill Americans was that we are a free and open society; and our multicultural population makes it easy for anybody to blend in and do what they want to do. Our strength is also our weakness.

This is in contrast to cultures like Afghanistan...and most others...where a foreigner could not blithely live and work amongst 'the enemy' while plotting against 'the enemy.'

Imagine you or me moving to Afghanistan.

About your second point...did the U.S. government not order or sanction all the killings in Indonesia, Nicaragua, Guatemala or Chile? I think the record is pretty clear on this. You could argue that the Cold War absolved us of our guilt, but we did kill those people.

These deaths are not DIRECTLY relevant to the terrorist's attacks, of course. They don't care about the Contras.

Our works in the Mideast, though , have similar fingerprints. It's a long story, and debateable, but please don't deny that we've killed many people in the defense of our ideology. Not soldiers; but families.

Still, you and I are basically on the same page. I know that because I've loved your postings all these years. I hope Westerners don't get too polarized in the upcoming days and years. We have to work and love together, even more than we have.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 00:21:49 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: A few 'good' men.
Message:
Gregg:

the point I made about how easy it is for bad guys to kill Americans was that we are a free and open society; and our multicultural population makes it easy for anybody to blend in and do what they want to do. Our strength is also our weakness.

That's also true of them. They have money and a secret organization. Deplete either of those and they have a handful of air.

This is in contrast to cultures like Afghanistan...and most others...where a foreigner could not blithely live and work amongst 'the enemy' while plotting against 'the enemy.'

You mean all you'd need to do to infiltrate is to *look* like them? Convenient. We don't have any Americans that look like them? I dunno. There's an Afghan Restaurant on a corner near my house.

did the U.S. government not order or sanction all the killings in Indonesia, Nicaragua, Guatemala or Chile? I think the record is pretty clear on this.

What record? All the killings? We looked the other way. In some cases trained their officers, but I don't know of cases of American secret ops being responsible for actual assassination. There certainly wasn't any of that from the Ford administration on. Hundreds of thousands? Nonesense.

but please don't deny that we've killed many people in the defense of our ideology. Not soldiers; but families.

Well, I can't deny it because I've never even heard of it, unless you mean some of the wartime atrocities. Yeah, we did that. So did they. But what does that have to do with ANYTHING? Shitheads in war commit atrocities.

I am quite disturbed by what I perceive as a tendancy to want to 'justify' the WTC attack. I'm sure the people working this angle don't see it that way, being basically good folks, but I think they are deluding themselves. There's an enormous compulsion to find some logical *reason* for this, some provocation. Why? Because you just remove the provocation and problem solved. But don't enter that trap. I suggest to you that the reason is not rational, but non-rational. It's a lust for power at the top, even to the point of self destruction (ala Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc.) only in this case they have a far more susceptible population to work with. A population not steeped in freedom and doubt of authority, and without even much of a tradition of discourse and argumentation. It's a population steeped in superstition, and often without even an adequate understanding of its *own* religion, let alone that of others.

And I'll tell you something else. The predominant emotion of those radical Islamists left in the Bin Laden cells is jealousy. Not jealousy of the West, primarily, but jealousy of the suicide attackers. Those attackers are assured a place in the Garden of Earthly Delights, even though they weren't even competent to fly a plane solo in 'real life' after hundreds of hours. They're 'made men' according to the cult thinking, and all those young men are saying 'me next.' But that will fade. It's the spur of the moment. And if we can keep them from acting by pressuring their leaders and resources they'll eventually become disillusioned. As their earthly delights begin to look more barren they won't be so enamored of their leader. Not all of course, but the Achilles heel, remember. Just a few 'good' men, is all we need.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:43:18 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: You're incompetent.
Message:
There is nothing easy about trying to get to these terrorists. Unfortunately, there is nothing hard about them trying to get to us, especially living in this free and multicutural land.

Oh horseshit. If it were that easy why haven't they done it before? You make it sound like all they have to do is make a few calls. It's hard as it is (the FBI nearly caught up with these guys), and we can make it a lot tougher. Of course if you believe there are nefarious conspiracies around every corner then I guess the world *does* look pretty daunting. You remind me of this nerd we had in a startup company I worked for in the 80s named Andy. One fine day Andy come in to the office smiling about what he considered some really exciting news. 'They've discovered an airborne version of the AIDS virus,' he anounced. The President of the company looked at him incredulously and said 'Andy, if that's true we're all dead.' Andy also thought 'Zelig' was a real documentary. Bad judgment is bad judgment. It does as much harm to overemphasize the danger as to underemphasize it.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:55:15 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: No, he's not.
Message:
Oh horseshit. If it were that easy why haven't they done it before?

They bombed WTC in 1993, and came very close to blowing up the Holland Tunnel and the United Nations, as well as some other sites. The only reason they were unsuccessful is because somebody turned informant. The FBI paid him $1,000,000. Despite his supposed religious, cult-like, fanaticism this guy succombed to money and was pissed because bin Laden had underpaid him. They actually arrested the guys as they were making the bombs in a warehouse in Queens. We are very, very vulnerable.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:40:28 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: You're kidding yourself
Message:
Oh horseshit. If it were that easy why haven't they done it before?

They've done it before, plenty of times, just never on this scale.

You make it sound like all they have to do is make a few calls.

You know, Scott, the terrorists who took down the WTC were 'sleepers' who lived in our country for years, free to come and go like you and me. What guarantee do you have that there aren't more such 'sleepers'? There could be hundreds, thousands even. They might be in the process of doing some horrendous deed, even now, that's going to make what happenned at the WTC look tame in comparison. How are you so sure they aren't? For all anybody knows, the WTC incident was just the first of a hundred that are going to happen that we can't do anything about simply because we don't know who these guys are, where they are or what they have planned.

Time to face reality, Scott. We have no idea how bad this shit could get. Don't mean to scare anybody, but there you have it.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:24:46 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: true
Message:
Hi Jerry,
One of the 'experts' interviewed on CNN or MSNBC said last night, there are 5,000 of these terrorists in dozens of countries.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:54:18 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: And you are fantacizing
Message:
I agree with Ollie North about this. UBL shot his wad on this deal. Gave it his best shot. If he had had nukes or gas or biologicals he'd have used them in *this* action, rather than risk being uncovered in the aftermath. (We are detaining or seeking something like 100 individuals who might be connected with this.) Heck, I could be wrong. You're correct, we can't be certain that he doesn't have an echelon holed up in the mountains of northern California ready to to swoop down and nuke SF. But logic and information suggest he doesn't, sleepers or not.

And these aren't cheap operations. They require a lot of organization, money, and most importantly secrecy. That's the Achilles heel of terrorist organizations. Some flunky spills the beans and it's all over. Sure most are gleeful over this, but if just one person was appalled or having doubts the whole plot comes down. It's one thing to spin up fear, but being able to give a realistic assessment of the danger, and potential counter action, is worth it's weight in gold.

--Scott 'not kidding myself' Talkington

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:52:51 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A Petition I received today ...
Message:
(I received this email petition from a friend today, and have passed it on already to a few friends. Perhaps it will help to soften the extreme attitude of those influenced by irresponsible media as outlined by Joe above. With love, and hope for a better future, Anna)

.

.

Please lend your support to this petition. Copy the body of the message and all the names below into the text of a new message. Add your name to the list and forward to as many people as you know.

If you are person 150 on the list, please forward the entire email to president@whitehouse.gov and then forward a new copy of the email to your friends with your name as number 1.

Thanks

Dear Mr. President,

Dear Mr. Vice President,

We the undersigned are writing to you at this moment to express our profound sadness at the events of September 11th, and to plead with you and those making the very difficult decisions which have to be made at this time for calm and a non-retaliatory stance.

We have all been deeply affected by this tragedy and our hearts and sympathies go to all those who died and to the loved ones they left behind. In the this event there is shock and sadness, and emotions
run very high. It is human to want to respond quickly, to find those responsible and ensure that this cannot happen again anywhere. However, retaliating with more violence only breeds more violence and ensures that future generations will live in fear with mistrust and suffering. We urge you and our fellow citizens to remember that vengeance offers no relief, that retaliation can never guarantee healing and that to meet violence with violence breeds more rage and more senseless deaths. Only love leads to peace with justice.

We believe it is our duty as a civilized nation to
rise above the desire for retaliation and to find a
way of dealing with this tragedy that is peaceful and good. We do not ask that we ignore that this happened or that those who are responsible not be held accountable. Rather we ask that we lead the world as an example of another way, a better way for all mankind. Further violence and the deaths of more innocent people will not resolve this situation or ensure the safety of future generations. This is
truly an opportunity to show the world that leadership
is earned, not imposed through violence and bullying
tactics. Please Mr. President, give us all hope for a
future where good will truly prevail over evil, and
where violence has no place. Our goal should be to
build bridges of love, respect and understanding among
all people. This is the only way to ensure that the
tragedy of September 11th and similar tragedies around
the world do not happen again.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 01:36:45 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: A Petition I received today ...
Message:
However, retaliating with more violence only breeds more violence and ensures that future generations will live in fear with mistrust and suffering.

As opposed to what, proximate extinction? In case you haven't noticed the effect has been the opposite, so far. Things might change when the shooting starts, but not much.

We believe it is our duty as a civilized nation to
rise above the desire for retaliation and to find a
way of dealing with this tragedy that is peaceful and good. We do not ask that we ignore that this happened or that those who are responsible not be held accountable. Rather we ask that we lead the world as an example of another way, a better way for all mankind.

What better way? Read the short passage at the link above and see what you think. Yes there's a better way. Are you willing to do what it takes to get there? If not, get real.

I was wrong about Adler's book being out of print. It's in renewed printing, and available at Amazon.com. You won't think about war the same way again.

--Scott
[ Adler on War and Peace ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:47:26 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: A Petition I received today ...
Message:
I got one the second day. Did not pass to others. Scam mail not my favorite.

I give the people in joe list the benefit of a doubt, they were emotional on the 12/13/14th, bet you they are wondering now how they voiced these words.

Cheers

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:19:10 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Thanks for the feedback
Message:
Hi Salam,

Thanks for the feedback, although not all of it is clear to me! ;) I had mixed feelings about it, but after I skimmed the 'pundits' post, I could feel too much bloodlust curdling out there. Fuck it - there's nothing to be done except speculate endlessly like some do about about the next heavyweight fight, or stick with gardening. Guess what I'll do? :)

It aint over 'til Mother Earth vomits us out of here.

(You're not drinking, are you?!!! If you are, have one for me too! Cheers to you too, anyways! ;)

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:40:51 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: CERT reports increase in Port 80 scanning -OT-
Message:
This morning (September 18th) the CERT/CC started receiving reports of a massive increase in scanning directed at port 80 (HTTP). Reports indicate
that this scanning activity is attempting to exploit systems previously compromised by Code Red II and/or the sadmind/IIS worm.. [follow the link above for the rest of the story]

-a0aji

p.s. If you repeat this story, be sure to direct them the the CERT site (www.cert.org), as the site is know to be authorative in such matters.
[ CERT/CC Current Activity [Port 80] ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:46:17 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: The email virus.
Message:
Hi,

I wonder if this is the email virus I've been receiving from folk recently as an email attachment. It comes with a message that says something like,

'Hi,

Hope you're doing OK. Would you take a look at this and tell me what you think ? Thanks.'

The attachment is two or three hundred K. I think, if you download it, it gets into your email address book and sends itself to everyone in the book, without you knowing.

Anth, if you've read this message, it's already too late. Your pc will self-destruct in 2 seconds. Boom.

Ah...it was all a dream.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:12:24 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: TROJ_SIRCAM
Message:
I just dealt with this on a friend's computer. She had infected most of her friends. If you have opened the attachment you may need this the attached link.

There's also a new version of the Code Red worm that apparently attacks through emails and websites. Update your anti-virus software. Don't know much about this though. I just heard about it.

--Scott
[ TROJ_SIRCAM ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:33:38 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Ooops
Message:
sorry, got confused, can't remember who i posted too, sheesh.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 21:16:40 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: u bloody using NT with IE5.5
Message:
I think you should set an example first, da?

you going to infect us all. Watch out everyone A0aji is a big nasty worm.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 00:29:03 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: U talkin' to me?
Message:
I'm using Win2000 with IE5.5. I'm not running a server though, and am behind a hardware firewall anyway (a DI-804 D-Link Router). The address you see is not mine. And my Anti-Virus is Trend Micro, and up to date.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:00:45 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: u bloody using NT with IE5.5
Message:
I think you should set an example first, da?

you going to infect us all. Watch out everyone A0aji is a big nasty worm.


---

Good G0d, no, man. I run Linux, straight-up. Netscape 4.73 at the moment (I also use Mozilla 0.9.2).

I don't understand how Hotboards does its detection, but if
it identifies me as such, either Netscape is faking an
IE signature, or something else. I am also running all
this behind an OpenBSD firewall.

You won't often catch me running anything Redmond.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:42:15 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Meet Nimda
Message:
New (More) Annoying Microsoft Worm Hits Net

Posted by CmdrTaco on Tuesday September 18, @10:10AM
from the what-a-pain-in-the-arse dept.
A new worm seems to be running rampant Unlike
Code Red, it attempts to hit boxes with many
different exploits (including what looks like an
attempt to exploit boxes still rooted by Code Red).
[ /. New (More) Annoying Microsoft Worm Hits Net ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:46:22 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: RTOOS
Message:
New (More) Annoying Microsoft Worm Hits Net

Posted by CmdrTaco on Tuesday September 18, @10:10AM
from the what-a-pain-in-the-arse dept.
A new worm seems to be running rampant Unlike
Code Red, it attempts to hit boxes with many
different exploits (including what looks like an
attempt to exploit boxes still rooted by Code Red).

---

Update:

Web servers compromised by this worm apparently attach a
'readme.eml' to all web pages served... and due to a bug
in IE5, it will automatically execute the file! Yay
Internet Explorer!

RTTOS: Remove The Offending Operating System

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:53:30 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: I just updated my virus protection [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:05:00 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: The email virus.
Message:

Hi,

I wonder if this is the email virus I've been receiving from folk recently as an email attachment. It comes with a message that says something like,

'Hi,

Hope you're doing OK. Would you take a look at this and tell me what you think ? Thanks.'

The attachment is two or three hundred K. I think, if you download it, it gets into your email address book and sends itself to everyone in the book, without you knowing.

Anth, if you've read this message, it's already too late. Your pc will self-destruct in 2 seconds. Boom.

Ah...it was all a dream.


---

That's not quite right. You have to open the attachment.
I think that one is Win32/Sircam, which uses a different
delivery mechanism (it uses e-mail file attaches). I get
them confused, because they (it and Code Red) came out
around the same time.

Let's get it straight:

Code Red - this is a worm that attacks port 80 (http). Once
it compromises the server found on that port, it engages in
malicious activity, including scanning *other* computers'
port 80 (by selecting a random IP address to attack, and
scanning for port 80).

Win32/Sircam - this is an e-mail borne virus, in the form
of a file attach. It uses your address book to find new
victims to propagate to.

People who have access to the Apache web server logs on their
server will notice Code Red signatures; anyone with an e-mail
account will notice Win32/Sircam signatures.

I'm sure www.cert.org will describe the delivery mechanism
responsible for the recent Port 80 activity; it will possibly
be the Win32/Sircam virus -or- the Code Red II worm -- could
be either, I'd think, though I'm leaning toward a Code Red
variant, as my personal guess (so any Win32/Sircam activity
you see is unrelated, essentially).

Win32/Sircam keeps emerging as people who were on extended
vacation check their e-mail and start a new outbreak (among
other possibilities).

I may have some details wrong; an authorative and complete
write-up is available on www.cert.org.

-a0aji

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:58:33 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: if it's the new one today
Message:
I've been told:
Do_not open an e-mail message, with the attachment
'README.EXE'. This is a new worm being called w32.nimda.amm.
This message came with the subject line UO.
To remove this worm: Delete it.

Also I can't get to cert either. And SANS is extremely slow.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:00:40 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: CERT reports increase in Port 80 scanning -OT-
Message:
So what do you think it is?

Are we doing to have a massive DOS?

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 15:51:58 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: CERT reports increase in Port 80 scanning -OT-
Message:
So what do you think it is?

Are we going to have a massive DOS?

---

My guess is this is the second wave, and was designed by the
designers of Code Red II. CERT will have the details soon
enough! They're probably using the same delivery mechanism
as Code Red II, with a different payload.

Amusingly, a Code Green worm has also emerged! It .. get
this .. seeks out hosts and *patches* the damage done by
Code Red!

The thing is .. Code Red II was identified and largely
disabled over the summer, so no, I think the new attack is
more of a predestined failure (not a pending success DOS
attack). OTOH if it were launched strategically (as part of
another attack on another front) it could be the leverage
they need, as in the short run, it will certainly add to net
traffic and will compromise a certain number of hosts that
didn't heed the warnings about Code Red II vulnerabilities.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:51:25 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: IIS sucks
Message:
that is interesting, bet you the patch does not work, or a signature file has nor been detected.

I think with all what is happening at present, this looked too sussed.

[no I don't want to think about it]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:45:58 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: :: that link is good ::
Message:
It's responding with a 403: Forbidden, but rest assured, it
is the correct link. I'm sure it is a temporary outage; follow the link (above) to go to the root directory of the CERT server (in case the more-specific link was deactivated on purpose).
[ www.cert.org ]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:47:33 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: :: root directory also gone 403 Forbidden! :: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:09:23 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Time for Zone Alarm
Message:
If you use something like Zone Alarm you will see that other computers are always trying to read yours through port 80. That program also tells who is snooping in your computer.

If it is law enforcement they are welcome. I have nothing on my computer which is illegal but criminals also look for credit card numbers and other stuff to steal your indentity.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 10:16:50 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Yusuf Islam (f.k.a Cat Stevens) speaks out
Message:
Tuesday September 18, 2001
The Guardian

Faith and the future

Britain's first government-funded Islamic school closed temporarily last week amid a wave of anti-Muslim feeling. Its chairman of governors, Yusuf Islam - formerly the pop star Cat Stevens - explains why his adopted religion is the home of tolerance and not of fanaticism

The playground stands bare and empty. Wind blows across the space where little children until recently chased, skipped and played. The gates of the first government-funded Muslim school in the UK were closed last week for two reasons: respect and caution.

With reports linking the atrocities at the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon to Muslim groups, the parents and children of Islamia primary school in north London have become possible targets of hate and harassment. There was a similar wave of anti-Muslim feeling after the bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma in 1995, even though it was later discovered to be the foul work of a son of Uncle Sam himself, a home-grown, disaffected American radical. But media speculation had already pointed the finger at Muslims and the Arab world, and that meant ordinary citizens of the US and other western countries became easy prey for anti-faith hooligans. Shame.

As chairman of the board that runs the small one-form primary school, I decided, in consultation with teachers and parents, to shut the school for a few days, until the dust settles and people can see more clearly. But, sadly, the latest horror to hit the US looks to have been caused by people of Middle Eastern origin, bearing Muslim names. Again, shame. This fuels more hatred for a religion and a people who have nothing to do with these events. This is why I felt it necessary to write and explain some basic facts about this noble way we call Islam, before, God forbid, another disaster occurs - next time probably aimed at Muslims.

I came to Islam in my late 20s, during my searching period as a wandering pop star. I found a religion that blended scientific reason with spiritual reality in a unifying faith far removed from the headlines of violence, destruction and terrorism. One of the first interesting things I learned in the Koran was that the name of the faith comes from the word salam - peace. Far from the kind of Turko-Arab-centric message I expected, the Koran presented a belief in the universal existence of God, one God for all. It does not discriminate against peoples; it says we may be different colours and from different tribes, but we are all human and 'the best of people are the most God-conscious'.

Today, as a Muslim, I have been shattered by the horror of recent events; the display of death and indiscriminate killing we've all witnessed has dented humanity's confidence in itself. Terror on this scale affects everybody on this small planet, and no one is free from the fallout. Yet we should remember that such violence is almost an everyday occurrence in some Muslim lands: it should not be exacerbated by revenge attacks on more innocent families and communities.

Along with most British Muslims, I feel it a duty to make clear that such orchestrated acts of incomprehensible carnage have nothing to do with the beliefs of most Muslims. The Koran specifically declares: 'If anyone murders an [innocent] person, it will be as if he has murdered the whole of humanity. And if anyone saves a person it will be as if he has saved the whole of humanity.' British Muslims feel nothing but sympathy for those families who lost loved ones. I know people who were directly involved in the tragedy; my own brother, who lives in New Jersey, was going to fly out from Newark last week. In that respect we all feel the same.

The Koran that our young pupils learn at Islamia is full of stories and lessons from the history of humanity as a whole. The Gospels and the Torah are referred to; Jesus and Abraham are mentioned. In fact there is more mention in the Koran of the prophet Moses than of any other. It acknowledges the coexistence of other faiths, and in doing so acknowledges that other cultures can live together in peace. 'There is no compulsion in religion,' it states, meaning that people should not be compelled to change their faith. Elsewhere it states, 'To you, your religion; to me mine.' Respect for religious values and justice is at the Koran's core. The Koranic history we teach provides ample examples of interreligious and international relationships; of how to live together.

But some extremists take elements of the sacred scriptures out of context. They act as individuals, and when they can't come together as part of a political structure or consultative process, you find these dissident factions creating their own rules, contrary to the spirit of the Koran - which demands that those recognised as being in charge of Muslims must consult together regarding society's affairs. There is a whole chapter in the Koran entitled Consultation; in Arabic the word for that is Shura.

Communal wellbeing is central to human life, so there is a concept in Islam called Istihsan, which means 'to look for the common good'. Even though the Koran may lay down a diktat, scholars are also supposed to consider the circumstances prevalent at the time. Sometimes that means choosing the lesser of two evils or even suspending legislation if necessary: for instance, a person who steals bread during a famine is not treated as a thief.

Once I wrote in a song, 'Where do the children play?' It is hoped that opening Islamia school's gates this week will herald a new day and a new dawn for children all over the world. Our sympathy and thoughts go out to the families of all those who lost their lives in this tragic act of violence, as well as all those injured. But life must go on. Children still need to play, and people need to live and learn more about their neighbours so that ignorance doesn't breed more blind fanaticism. Moderation is part of faith, so those who accuse Muslim schools of fostering fanaticism should learn a bit more about Islam.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said, 'Ruined are those who insist on hardship in faith,' and, 'A believer remains within the scope of his religion as long as he doesn't kill another person illegally.' Such knowledge and words of guidance are desperately needed at this time, to separate fact from falsehood, and to recognise the Last Prophet's own definition of that which makes a person representative, or otherwise, of the faith he lived and the one we try to teach.

endquote

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:26:41 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Cat Stevens..Wonderful Poet and Soul
Message:
Thank you for the Quote From Cat Stevens...I have fond memories of sitting on the Porch of a Premie House in Columbus after Satsang..in 1974...listening to Cat Stevens...and sharing our youthful comraderie.

I recently bought the 'Tea for the Tillerman' CD. After all these years, It still stands the Test of Time for its Beauty, Simplicity and Poetry....Im heartened that the Man who created Beautiful Music..Now speaks out in support of the Humanness and Goodness he so powerfully expressed in his Music of Our Youth..

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:53:38 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Re: Cat Stevens..Wonderful Poet and Soul
Message:
...not forgetting 'Teaser and the Firecat', 'Catch Bull at Four', 'I'm gonna get me a gun' ...

... ooops. Better forget that last one.
;)

Yup, there was a passion to Cat Stevens' singing that cut through me like a flaming sword. Maybe I'll dig out the only remaining album of his I've got and play it again tonight. It'll be good to put stylus to vinyl again. (CDs can be so soul-less!)

I must admit I was saddened when I heard that he'd stopped making music. It seemed like Islam had gained a convert, but the world had lost a great singer and songwriter. I wonder why he stopped? - music is integral to culture, isn't it? (the Muslim call to prayer is sung, after all).

By the way, Rich, your style of writing often brings me a warm feeling - what with Capital letters for all the Important Words. It's a style that my late mother always used.

As did A A Milne (author of Winnie the Pooh).

All together now .... aahhhhhhh
:)

Best wishes,

Chris

(PS what's the Mandrake bit of your name all about?)

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:12:06 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: What about the Rushdie fatwa?
Message:
I'm all for acknowledging the current views of people like Cat Stevens or Arafat. But didn't the one publically condone the Rushdie fatwa and didn't the other release a bunch of Hamas terrorists from jail so they could do their thing? What about all that? Forget it?
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:32:31 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What about the Rushdie fatwa?
Message:
Jim:

I think Cat Stevens apologized for the rash statement he made about the Rushie affair. Said something about being a new convert, and not really understanding Islam very well.

Arafat's a politician. He'll do whatever is expedient.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:44:25 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Israel & Palestine ceasefire
Message:
I just heard the good news that Israel's Sharon has now agreed a ceasefire with Yassir Arafat after the speech Arafat gave today. That's good news.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:34:09 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Today is Rosh Hashannah
Message:
It is the Jewish New Year. There will be a week of celebration followed by Yom Kippur on the 27th.

As long as Sharon is in power there is the risk that the ceasefire will end on the 28th.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:15:37 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Israel & Palestine ceasefire
Message:
David:

That's puting it mildly. Very very very good news. And definitely precisely the opposite of what Bin Laden wanted or thought he'd do. Cultists are dopes, with a crippled understanding of both God and Man. I'll bet he crapped his pants.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:34:49 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Israel & Palestine ceasefire
Message:
Just about the most positive thing he could have done - short of giving his blood to the Americans. Which he has done.

And this on the Jewish New Year too.

Let's just hope he can keep the likes of Sheik Hamed Bitawi appeased:

'Arafat's emerging shift in policy was likely to renew friction with the
Islamic militant groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Senior Muslim
clergymen linked to Hamas issued a religious edict Tuesday against
participation in the U.S. alliance, saying it would be blasphemous.

Siding with the United States against any Muslim ``will be one of the
biggest crimes, and treason against God, the Prophet Muhammad and the
believers,'' said Sheik Hamed Bitawi'

from http://dailynews.yahoo.com

Full report here

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 12:06:06 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: and Richard Stallman
Message:

Thousands dead, millions deprived of civil liberties?

By Richard Stallman

The worst damage from many nerve injuries is secondary -- it happens in the hours after the initial trauma, as the body's reaction to the damage kills more nerve cells. Researchers are beginning to discover ways to prevent this secondary damage and reduce the eventual harm.

If we are not careful, the deadly attacks on New York and Washington will lead to far worse secondary damage, if the U.S. Congress adopts 'preventive measures' that take away the freedom that America stands for.

I'm not talking about searches at airports here. Searches of people or baggage for weapons, as long as they check only for weapons and keep no records about you if you have no weapons, are just an inconvenience; they do not endanger civil liberties. What I am worried about is massive surveillance of all aspects of life: of our phone calls, of our email, and of our physical movements.

These measures are likely to be recommended regardless of whether they would be effective for their stated purpose. An executive of a company developing face recognition software is said to be telling reporters that widespread deployment of face-recognizing computerized cameras would have prevented the attacks. The September 15 New York Times cites a congressman who is advocating this 'solution.' Given that the human face recognition performed by the check-in agents did not keep the hijackers out, there is no reason to think that computer face recognition would help. But that won't stop the agencies that have always wanted to do more surveillance from pushing this plan now, and many other plans like it. To stop them will require public opposition.

Even more ominously, a proposal to require government back doors in encryption software has already appeared.

Meanwhile, Congress hurried to pass a resolution giving Bush unlimited power to use military force in retaliation for the attacks. Retaliation may be justified, if the perpetrators can be identified and carefully targeted, but Congress has a duty to scrutinize specific measures as they are proposed. Handing the president carte blanche in a moment of anger is exactly the mistake that led the United States into the Vietnam War.

Please let your elected representatives, and your unelected president, know that you don't want your civil liberties to become the terrorists' next victim. Don't wait -- the bills are already being written.

Copyright 2001 Richard Stallman
Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article are permitted in any medium provided the copyright notice and this notice are preserved.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:11:49 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Who?
Message:
Once again, I haven't any idea what your program or that of your surrogates (whose info you keep posting) might be. What do you want specifically, and why? Or is that beneath you? You know, step A, step B, and the linkages between? Geez, the article doesn't even mention anything specific about what civil liberties are being threatened, how, or to what extent. A little flakey isn't it? What am I missing?

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:01:49 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Who?
Message:
Once again, I haven't any idea what your program or that of your surrogates (whose info you keep posting) might be. What do you want specifically, and why? Or is that beneath you? You know, step A, step B, and the linkages between? Geez, the article doesn't even mention anything specific about what civil liberties are being threatened, how, or to what extent. A little flakey isn't it? What am I missing?

--Scott

---


Richard M Stallman (RMS) is the author of The GNU Manifesto, which is the basis of the GNU Project.
The organization that furthers this project is the

Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111, USA

I believe the FSF was the first organization of its kind,
and I believe it produced the first (of several) OpenSource
type of computer software licenses: The GNU General Public License or GPL, as it is sometimes known as.


[ The GNU Manifesto ]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:50:11 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Oh (nt) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:14:11 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: (sigh) [nt]
Message:
Check it out Scott. Try Google. Are you from this planet or what?
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:56:50 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: (groan)
Message:
Apparently not. I'm from a planet where a legitimate citation on a topic has to be from someone familiar with that topic. So this guy says we're in danger of losing our civil liberties. Which ones? What legislation? What's the scenario? I repeat, what is it you're driving at? Is there a reason why you're so vague? Do you have something (anything) to say, or are you just trolling?

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:45:04 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Islamabad's dilemma
Message:
The following briefing is from Stratfor - an intelligence gathering website described as 'a reliable barometer on what the USA thinks.” by Jane's Intelligence Review; and also by The San Francisco Chronicle as 'having no problem setting aside distracting moral issues and going to the heart of ...issues.')

Stratfor describes itself as '…the leading provider of global intelligence. Headquartered in Austin, Texas the company maintains an office in Washington, D.C., as well. Many of the founding employees are still associated with the company, including Dr. George Friedman, the Dickinson professor who went on to become a best-selling author. He still serves as founder and chairman.

The company’s more than 40 employees are composed of business professionals, intelligence professionals with backgrounds in the military, academia and leading think tanks. A variety of journalists also serve on the staff. The company’s president and chief executive officer is Don R. Kuykendall.'

Though I personally find the assertion, repeated throughout the article, that 'Afghanistan must be attacked ' to be (literally) offensive, the piece indicates an overview of the situation and a grasp of US attitudes that could well be a little closer to what Bush's advisers are suggesting.

It's worth a read. Especially regarding the assessment of Pakistan's options at the moment.

Quote:

Pakistan Key for Afghan Attack

2215 GMT, 010916

Summary
The United States is looking increasingly likely to strike Afghanistan for harboring Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, the prime suspect in this week's terrorist attacks on the United States. But to do so, cooperation with Pakistan will be the key.

Analysis
The United States has, with reason, decided to hold Saudi militant Osama bin Laden responsible for the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on the United States. Since Afghanistan's ruling Taliban has provided bin Laden with at least refuge, it follows that the United States will hold the Afghani government responsible as well.
Washington clearly intends to punish the Taliban regime, although whether this will directly affect the ability of the attackers to keep operating is moot. Afghanistan must be attacked decisively for both psychological and deterrence reasons.

Psychologically, the U.S. government must assure its citizens it is acting decisively. And from the deterrence standpoint, it is useful to demonstrate the risks that conspirators against the United States face.

But it is not clear that Afghanistan is the only state deliberately providing aid and comfort to the attackers, nor is it clear there is a direct correlation any longer between Afghanistan and the terrorists' war-fighting capabilities. Nevertheless, Afghanistan must be attacked.

Direct attacks on bin Laden depend on accurate, real-time intelligence concerning his location and his infrastructure. Without such intelligence the attacks will fail and become counter-productive. They will appear to be acts of impotence, symbolic strikes designed to cover a lack of resources and commitment, a gesture rather than a strategy.

What is clearly needed is a sustained and devastating attack against Afghanistan, coupled with attempts at killing bin Laden. But here geography conspires against the United States. Afghanistan is a land-locked country and cannot be reached without the cooperation of a third party.

Among the countries whose cooperation is needed, Iran and Pakistan are the only two that can provide naval aviation with access to Afghanistan. One of them must open up their airspace for U.S. aircraft not only transiting the countries but also carrying out mid-air refueling. Whether the attacks come from carrier-based aircraft or long-range bombers from the United States or other bases around the world, they cannot reach Afghanistan without passing through one of these countries.

Iran's internal political dynamics make it an unlikely prospect as a U.S. ally. The thought of U.S. troops on Iranian soil remains unacceptable. Therefore, if the United States is going to throw its forces into a sustainable war, Pakistan is the key.

Washington wants a number of things from Islamabad. First, U.S. forces must have the right to fly over Pakistan to attack Afghanistan. Second, to make the air campaign effective, the United States must have the right to site aircraft and logistical support on Pakistani bases.

Third, Pakistan must permit the basing of American ground troops and allow a massive buildup of air power in the country. The U.S. troop force will probably consist primarily of special operations forces that will be used in strikes inside of Afghanistan, but it will also involve regular Army units whose job will be to protect the approaches to air bases from Afghan ground counterattack.

Fourth, the United States must have the use of Pakistani port and transportation facilities to expedite and support the buildup.

Finally, the United States is asking for intelligence cooperation from Pakistan, including sharing real-time information about targeting and about bin Laden's global capabilities.
The last is the most critical and difficult resource for Pakistan to provide. A U.S. force based in Pakistan will be the target of attacks by forces in Afghanistan and Pakistan. One needs only remember Beirut and Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia to see the vulnerabilities.

Unless Pakistani intelligence is working with the United States, a situation could easily develop in which the Pakistani government is simultaneously a strong ally and a facilitator of attacks on American forces. Pakistani intelligence knows a great deal about what the Taliban and bin Laden are thinking and doing. If agents are not prepared to transfer that knowledge, or worse, if they collaborate with Kabul, the U.S. position in Pakistan could rapidly become untenable.

Islamabad's dilemma is two-fold. First, it is unclear whether it wants or can even survive a massive American presence. Second, even if that were possible, it is not certain that it could impose enough controls on its own intelligence services for them to become part of the American security apparatus.
Because the willingness of Pakistani operatives to help the United States and the ability of the government to force them to do so are highly questionable, America could find its bases under intense attack at the very moment it launches its air campaign. The line of supply from Pakistan's ports to American forward bases will be highly vulnerable, and the Pakistani government's ability to guarantee security is highly dubious even with the best intentions.

The Pakistanis have been under tremendous pressure during the past few days from extremely high-level U.S. officials with long ties to the Pakistani government. The government has indicated a willingness to cooperate with America, but these commitments have contained ambiguities and are of somewhat doubtful value. They are, nevertheless, positive signs.

For example, according to the Pakistani News Service, Islamabad froze the bank accounts of 300 Afghani nationals yesterday, including senior government and military officials. PNS also reported that the government has withdrawn senior diplomatic officials from Kabul, including the ambassador.

According to the Pakistani Foreign Ministry, the action was taken to assure the safety of their officials in Afghanistan, indicating that Pakistan is planning to cooperate with the United States. And meanwhile there is a report out of Islamabad that a Pakistani delegation will be going to Kabul Sept. 17 in a last-ditch attempt to persuade the Taliban to extradite bin Laden. Pakistan is walking a tightrope.

The government has a tremendous opportunity to make itself useful to the United States, but its demands of Washington will be high. At the same time, the military-dominated government is trying to deal with a wave of pro-Islamic sentiment. If the government appears to be the willing puppet of the United States, it could be torn apart in internecine violence between three factions: those who want closer relations with the West for economic relations, those who feel deep affinity for the Taliban, bin Laden and Islamic militants, and those who are primarily opportunistic and looking for safe harbor.

There is one factor binding these factions: They hate India. Their fear that the United States might align with India against Pakistan could be a pressure point. But whether it would tie together the various ministries and intelligence and security services sufficiently to provide the United States with the kind of security it needs is doubtful.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf is planning diplomatic moves before committing himself. Apart from the delegation to Afghanistan, he is going to visit both China and Saudi Arabia this week. His goal is to inform these two important allies of his intentions, whatever they are, and to enlist them in an effort to get Pakistan off the hook. He knows that the United States is very sensitive to Chinese actions in Asia, and he understands that the United States is dependent on Saudi Arabia for any strategy evolving toward Iraq.

In the meantime, the Times of India is reporting rumors that early contingents of U.S. troops have already landed in Islamabad. There may be some truth to the report, and it would fit into Pakistani strategy. Musharraf is going to cooperate with the United States as far as necessary while searching for a solution that does not require a massive U.S. presence or deep cooperation.

For the United States, this is the essential problem. It badly needs whole-hearted Pakistani cooperation, as anything less may pull U.S. troops into a dangerous trap. Pakistan is the key to the United States strategy against Afghanistan, but it is a very weak reed on which to hang that policy. U.S. pressure to strengthen Pakistan might succeed in winning over the senior leadership in the government, but it might at the same time undermine their ability to deliver what they are promising.

Endquote

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 17:06:14 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Interesting read. tnx [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 05:41:04 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: All
Subject: wow-i didnt understand b4
Message:
i must have gotten more cynical than i ever realized. all this week i kept thinking this tragedy was an american wound, and that we were expected to take it like a man, take our knocks, grow up, own that we had it coming.

after slowly viewing this photo album, it dawned on me that i was wrong. i had no idea we had so many friends around the world.

i mean, i can understand our allies speaking in our support, but our old or onetime enemies?????

if you take the time to go thru this photo album, you'll see surprising things I bet you didn't expect to.

extraordinary acts that make the old cynical beliefs vanish.

the ones that astonished me:

fidel castro
Beijing
moscow-untold thousands

kuwaiti's donating their blood.
kosovo
czech republic
sarajevo
bosnia

nairobi
india schoolchildren
the dalai lama, tibetan buddhist monks,

the pope overcome in grief

the EU flags all lowered and standing, flying at half staff, to stand at the level with the stars and stripes.

the guard at buckingham palace changing to the playing of 'the star spangled banner'

the stars and stripes flown at half mast in moscow

the government leaders, and the people of seoul south korea in candlelight vigil for us.

the NATO flag flown at half mast for us, with the leaders in salute beneath it.

these got to me. my lifelong,, 60's spawned cynicism faded out. i was wrong. i didnt know. i had no idea we were this loved or cared about all over the world.

take the time to go see this. it could really shift something deep inside you.

this could not have been PR'd. this is real. no one could have coordinated or spin doctored this. people just did it.

i am humbled. i never knew it was like this.

i stand b4 you, an american, at once chastened and blushing, with tears and a crooked smile on my face.

to all you pals around the world i didnt realize cared--

gee. thanks, you guys....

whaddya wanna do next?
[ even our old enemies care... ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:20:31 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: whaddya wanna do next?
Message:
I'm a dreamer ...

Afghanistan is a starving, war ravaged country. There is not a building or a factory there worth the cost of a single cruise missile. The country is littered with millions of landmines which kill between twenty and thirty Afghanis every day. That's about 7000 a year, and that has been going on now for 10 years. A lot of the casualities are children who need to play, and are curious.

I'd like to see food dropped on the country (no pork, OK?). I'd like to see the landmines cleared. I'd like to see schools and hospitals rebuilt, funded and staffed. I'd like the world to demonstrate that it has learned that brutality and ignorance are not best fought with bullets and bombs.

A wrecked land of starving people; crippled children; savagely oppressed women is not a worthy target for Western (more specifically, American) wrath.

Let's start by dropping food. The starving will surely eat, and to share bread with an Afghani is to make a friend. Feed the people. Feed the children. Clear the mines. And Mr bin Laden's 'power' there will evaporate like water under the blazing desert sun.

Ich bin ein Afghanisches!

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:51:34 (EDT)
From: Takes a dreamer
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: to make a dream come true. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:15:13 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Food not bombs - exactly, John
Message:
If only sane minds prevail and make sure that part of the 42 billion dollars earmarked for the war against terrorism goes to feed starving kids.

The US can still win over the hearts and minds of many of its enemies by dropping care packages not bombs just as GIs did in Italy, Germany and Japan after WW11.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:23:09 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Food not bombs - exactly, John
Message:
Pat:

Last year, according to the US State Department, the US contributed $140,000,000 in financial aid to Afghanistan for such items as food, clothing, etc. Just yesterday they contributed some $20,000,000 to refugee relief, with promises of more to come. No Britney Spears photos yet though. She just won't cooperate.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 14:39:01 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Nude Lolitas
Message:
That's a damn shame, Scott, about Britney. Maybe we could ask Jennifer Lopez to pose for some semi-nude pics because I think those poor camels in Afghanistan must be exhausted ministering to the needs of Osama who has not Bin Laden for far too long.

But seriously, US aid must not only be made but must BE SEEN to be made. The food bombs must be accompanied by lots of publicity. As you so rightly point out we give away billions but few know about it.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 01:46:33 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Nude Lolitas
Message:
Pat:

Maybe we could ask Jennifer Lopez to pose for some semi-nude pics because I think those poor camels in Afghanistan must be exhausted ministering to the needs of Osama who has not Bin Laden for far too long.

Thanks for the precious laugh. 'Bin Laden' heh.

But seriously, US aid must not only be made but must BE SEEN to be made. The food bombs must be accompanied by lots of publicity. As you so rightly point out we give away billions but few know about it.

Want to set up a delegation to the President to urge formation of a 'Board of Economic Warfare?' (Explaining it would be the hard part.) I've also located an academic who's been studying the cult aspects of the Bin Laden operation. He's saying exactly what I've been saying, albeit with a good deal more authority. Name is Gerrold Post and George Washington University. He calls his discipline 'political psychology'. He has interviewed some of Bin Laden's suicide attackers. Fascinating stuff.

--Double Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 04:04:16 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Food, propaganda and law enforcement
Message:
I am hoping that at least some of the war-chest will be spend on food bombs and propaganda. Pamphlets stuffed into food bombs offering huge rewards for info leading to the terrorists and then, rather than kill them, arrest them and bring them to trial. If they resist arrest send in the army to get them. That's not war. It's law enforcement.

Request that CNN pick up the story about Cassell and Mercer, the two American women imprisoned unlawfully by the Taliban. Milk this human tragedy for all it's worth. Stir up the outrage and indignation of the civilized world against this atrocity. Warn the Taliban that if they are not released that we will come and get them and then do it. If they are still held captive illegally then remove their captives. This is not war it is law enforcement.

Use CNN in the cities and food/pamphlet bombs in the countryside and blanket the mideast with the truth about the Taliban cult fanatics and what their insane plans will lead to. Warn the terrorists to surrender now and face trial or we will arrest them. If they resist arrest, take them by force. The same applies to all their aiders and abettors.

This needs to be thought of as law enforcement not war. That word seems to bring the worst out of the toothless impotent old warmongers willing to use other peoples' kids for cannon fodder. Call it law enforcement, invest it with the righteousness of protecting civilization and democracy.

But no deliberate killing just for the sake of revenge. Some killing may occur in the course of subduing those resisting arrest or in self-defense against criminals. Our first concern obviously will be for the safety of those law abiding citizens in whom we have vested the authority to enforce the laws of civilization in our name.

And no killing as punishment for the crime after the trial. Sentence them to life imprisonment and throw away the key. But why should civilized people such as us stoop to killing like those who would destroy civilization? Killing is for barbarians like the terrorists.

Civilized people can only kill with a clear conscience in self-defense or in the defense of loved ones such as Cassell and Mercer or in defense of our civil rights. Never in retaliation.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 08:31:24 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Meddling preferences
Message:
How about some western warm weather clothing? And just to play with their heads: for the guys a few autographed nekkid Britney Spears photos. I mean, just to get the Taliban steaming in their turbans...
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:00:40 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Get well soon [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 06:59:21 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: wow-i didnt understand b4
Message:
I hope other people in America know about that site. Now, I think it's clear for all to see that Yassir Arafat's reaction was sincere. He kept saying, ''Unbelievable, unbelievable'' and did the only thing he could think of to show his sympathy - he gave blood.

For me, the thing that did cause me to shed tears was listening to the voicemail message from the women trapped in the doomed WTC tower. She had left a message to her husband telling him that she was trapped and about to die... and that she loved him.

The incomprehensible horror is mind numbing. When I saw the planes hitting the buildings and watched them burning and then collapsing, it has hard to envisage that they were full of people. But we did see people, holding hands and jumping from the burning buildings.

But the voicemail message really got me. So too did the stories of the other phone calls from people on the planes to their loved ones.

Also, the two black ladies, obviously not city hi-fliers, who were just hanging around near the crash site hoping against hope to get news of their brother. How many people died there who were not wealthy business people but were just cleaners, catering workers, office juniors and tourists? Just so many.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 07:31:46 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: wow-i didnt understand b4
Message:
Dave:

It is hard to figure what the hijackers allowed the phone calls home, given the enormous role they played both during the attack and afterward. I can only surmise that, like all cult members, they were dopes. They probably thought that the sound of people blubbering about facing death would demoralize us or something. They have a worldview that says anyone without their set of beliefs and commitments are weak and corrupt. Like I said, cult thinking turns you into a dope. Hardly the image of an invincable implacable enemy.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:04:12 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Certainly a cult
Message:
I just heard today that the terrorists who learned to fly an airliner at the flying school in Florida only wanted to learn how to fly the plane in the air and were not interested in learning take-off and landing procedures. I believe that the owner of the flying school had contacted the authorities about these new Muslim recruits but were told they were OK.

I also heard that the terrorists ordered the passengers to phone their loved ones to tell them they were about to die. The terrorists' world view is certainly warped. You only have to look at the site that Janet linked above to see that they're in a tiny minority. I guess it's a cult through and through. Promise of Heaven in the afterlife, a belief that they're doing right by doing wrong, a belief that their's is the only true path... all the hallmarks.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:25:45 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It won't fly, Crusader
Message:
I guess it's a cult through and through. Promise of Heaven in the afterlife, a belief that they're doing right by doing wrong, a belief that their's is the only true path... all the hallmarks.

You just won't get the world to think about the Catholic church in that way. I really do think the issue of hidden teachings is central to EV and newage cults in general. It's been discussed many times here, the way folk are led into the cult with soft pr0n for the aspirants, and hardcore foot fetishism for those more deeply into the K&M scene.

I'm tempted to say it's essential -- or at least there has to be some dirty little secret or a dozen, somewhere. Al Quaida (sp?) is quite up front and explicit.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 18:49:50 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Come off it
Message:
Their big secret is who they're going to attack next. They are the master's of keeping secrets and pretty devilish ones at that.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 04:31:31 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Come off it
Message:
It is you that is mounted on a charger, Sir Dave, not I.

You declare that al Qaida keep their operational planning under wraps, and that makes them a cult in the same sort of way as EV. That makes every army or indeed business a cult. The question is, what is it about newage cults like EV that is different from, ahem, mainstream organisations.

Now if al Qaida went in for secret toe-kissing, or secretly taught to an inner circle that Mr bin Laden is the (unexpected) Prophet to succeed Mohamed, then I would be more convinced. Surely to stretch the word 'cult' to include any organisation that has military or trade secrets is just to make the word meaningless?

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 04:54:22 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: FA, please exterminate this CAC roach
Message:
In a thread below Cerise/Marolyn/SC asks: ''Why doesn't trust exist here?''

My final response to this sorry excuse for a human being and walking insult to the human race is:

There's plenty of trust here, you stupid lying disrepectful sneering immoral sociopathic idiot.

Everybody here trusts everyone else except those who come here with malicious or mischievous intentions like you with your fake personas and fake stories. When people see through your little cerise charade you switch to Marolyn etc etc etc. And you have the temerity to snivel about not being trusted. Duh!

Have you any idea what a filthy stink your insulting game-playing and pathological lying creates and what a nasty rotten taste it leaves in one's mouth? Probably not, because I doubt if anyone trusts or likes you or vice versa to stick around long enough to tell you.

Your aliases and games and stories have tried everyones' goodwill and patience to the limit. You are totally disgusting despicable childish irresponsible and boring. Go get a life. It looks like you spend the whole day on this forum trying desperately to get some attention from people who pity and despise you.

Even if we did trust you we could never find you remotely interesting or sympathetic because you are just an infantile drip, coward and cultweasel.

I bet you used to be the nasty smelly kid in school who constantly picked his nose and ate his own boogers and spat or pissed in other peoples' soda bottles like a weasel sneak when no one was watching because you are a social misfit, loser and creep. Please get counselling. You have the mind and emotions of a ten year old nerd.

Please block this pathological liar, FA. I think he may have shit in his pants or his bullshit is stinking up the joint. I'm serious. His stench of deceit makes me want to puke.

Or maybe it's just better to ignore the squirming turd and hope that the maggots will clean up the mess.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:11:59 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: You RULE PatC
Message:
Hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhahaha,,,hehhehehehhe,,,,hehhehehheheh

You make me laugh. That was great. Encore! Dang! You rule dude.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 11:02:14 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: ditto forum janitor
Message:
wassup?
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 09:38:17 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: but he is SPECIAL, a premie
Message:
I agree with you, totally. I have read his/her posts and I dislike the liberty with which he/she insults us with sour, hateful remarks as the ones about your sexuality, calling me stupid, etcetera.

I VOTED BELOW THE BLOCK SC.

Trust, SHEESH...

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 13:52:31 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: SC's post from Lifes Great
Message:
JHB asked for a link from LG to F7. SC answered thus:

(You cannot have a link to) the wilderness John, one has to be lost to get there. It's the only way,

Unless one is part of a rescue expedition.

Nice one David A. It's a beautiful site. I've been wondering what that scallywag Mitch has been up to since we worked on Elan 18 months ago. Scott (R) is very excited about it (seeing as he came up with the name!)

Bloody good stuff.
SC

Perhaps SC sees himself as a crusader coming to rescue expremies from turning into rotting vegetables. It's the ultimate ego prop to think of oneself as the saint, the rescuer, the savior. But more likely he is just here to turn the compost heap and MAKE SURE that the vegetables do rot.

Earlier yesterday on F7 SC said:

Hey, it's a fucked up world and (Cynthia's) an out of control emotional basket case throwing caca in other people's faces.

Not mine buddy...

Now the club has joined in the vomit fray. So what's new?
Next month there'll be another target.

Believe me Pat it takes a very stupid, I mean err, very brave man to post the stuff on this forum that I do.
Some people realise why I do it. It's enough.

But when one posts a sincere message supporting someone's point of view, and they spit it in your face, well, you realise how sick they really are. They get it right back. I saw bjorn go through exactly the same thing. He experienced the horror hate gauntlet from sime of the most rabid, revolting people on the internet and tried to justify his way out of it, poor sod.

I see a sick fuck. I call a sick fuck.

Don't try and deny that they aren't here because everyone knows they are. You also know who they are, but are too gutless to say so. That's cowardice, to deliberately deny your own perceptions just so you can keep the fake cameraderi going.

If certain parties could drop their emotional hysteria for 2 seconds. They'd see that nothing could be less cold, cruel or cowardly than to say, 'HEY....

WAKE THE FUCK UP!

Nothing to do with being a pwk or not. There's a much deeper psychosis at work. And it needs addressing.

Too funny that SC cites Bjorne who played the exact same multi-alias cultweasel pathological liar games.

SC and the other cult fanatics who post here are doing exactly what Glasser and now the Andersens are doing - they are desperately trying to prop up their belief systems and protect their egos. They have seen their master diminished and their own self-worth is at risk.

Deep down inside they think we are rotting vegetables because that's what they think will happen to them if they ever ''doubt the purity of the master.''

Little to they know that Maharajism is all in their minds, in their imaginations. It's hard work to prop up an imaginary belief system.

Sometimes I also think that SC is so angry that we have not turned into rotting vegetables that he spouts horrible insults such as ""I see a sick fuck. I call a sick fuck"" in an effort to make sure we turn into rotting vegetables.

I felt the same thing about CAC. It was an attempt to induce paranoia. Since Rawat's evil curse that people who turned against him will rot does not work, the cultweasel fanatics are determined to make the curse come true by attempting to inject their own mental illness into our minds.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 19:09:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: SC admits that he and Cat did CAC?
Message:
They should both be banned forever. If Gerry, our FA, finds them posting here again under any guise they should be immediately reported to their servers and bounced as Mili once was.
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 20:53:49 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: SC admits that he and Cat did CAC?
Message:
Convenient. But one, I have no idea who SC is and two I had nothing to do with CAC. Give up you angry little ant!
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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:03:24 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Jim, as the FA's busboy
Message:
I have just emailed Gerry and said I don't think it will work to ban them.

Catweasel is annoying and prickly about certain people like you, Jim. He also can be boring sometimes but he at least does have a sense of humor. SC on the other tries so hard to be funny that he comes off as a complete drip - the bore at the party trying so hard to be popular.

Then there is the practical aspect - the Hydra head syndrome. Ban cerise and Marolyn appears with another proxy ISP. Ban that incarnation and SC appears. Better the devil we know than the one we don't. Also they both do a great service in showing premie lurkers just how weird cultweasels are.

PS Pussy, SC is David Roupell of Ocean Shores NSW. He is regarded as a fruitcake by several of his fellow premies.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 22:09:21 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: PS Catweasel, you're a liar too
Message:
You used to say that you were a Brit living in Oz which is also what SC says. No one can believe that two such nuts live in the same place so it was natural to assume that you were simply one two-faced person.

Then when Dave traced you to your (proxy?) server in NZ you said that you were a Kiwi. You really won't make friends by insulting their intelligence with such dumb lies.

I sometimes see that cultweasels really are trapped in some infantile phase, you know - the the phase where kids tell fibs to see if they can get away with it, the phase where all they want to do is play play play and life is just a game. Aren't you bored with your lack of mental development yet?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 05:38:55 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: PS Catweasel, you're a liar too
Message:
Wrong Pat. I never said where I lived. I also never claimed to be a Brit. Other Sherlocks have deduced all this wondorous info. I have said nothing.Seemingly that infuriates you!
I read something somewhere else today and strangely I do think I know who SC might be though - and he is way up the foodchain.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:29:34 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Victoria , sweetie dahling
Message:
I've got a very good memory. Perhaps you don't remember telling me (when you first started taking digs at me) that I was a sad old queen while you were a beautiful person ''sunning my buffed bod here in sunny Australia?'' You said that several times in the course of our getting to know each other (yeah right - know you? the ultimate ghost!)

Do you also remember recently saying this to SC? ''Democratic elections? You're a politician!'' That was in connection with that anonymouse's insistence that EV was very open and democratic.

Yes, I know David Roupell is high up on the food chain and was probably one of the CACroaches.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 16:38:15 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: AUUUUGGGGGHHH
Message:
WHAT A DISGUSTING PERSON, MY MY....

You got it so good here:

I felt the same thing about CAC. It was an attempt to induce paranoia. Since Rawat's evil curse that people who turned against him will rot does not work, the cultweasel fanatics are determined to make the curse come true by attempting to inject their own mental illness into our minds.

I would love to read the transcrip of the gordi programme where he talks bad about us. I'm dying to read it. Does anyone has it?

My love to you, intelligent one. :)

Silvia

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 05:29:25 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: PS: I also posted this on lifes Great
Message:
I posted the above on LG where it will probably be deleted soon and I will be banned. I also included the following:

Here on F7 SC posted this:

''Oh and please don't rib us endlessly about the CAC thing.
Have you any idea how much work Cat and I put into that?
Unpaid work it was too! Mind you, we almost developed hernias from the laughing.''

I will be forwarding this (as well as SC's ISP#) to my friend the other Patrick Conlon who was slandered on CAC. I'll let his lawyers figure out if it is a joke or not.

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Date: Tues, Sep 18, 2001 at 23:15:32 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Exactly
Message:
And some people don't think the tip-off of a Maha Jihad, followed by a successfully executed cyber-stalking cuolminating in the blackmail of the FA, endangerment to a innocent child, slander and personal attack on individuals by religious fanatics is so funny now, especially since the World Jihad occurred.

It's being taken very seriously. Maha is viewed as having the same mind-set as bin Laden. It's comforting to know that great minds think alike.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 04:47:53 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: What I just posted on Lifes Great
Message:
Here was the response to reposting my attack on SC on Lifes Great.

''Anais Nin'' (probably another alias of SC, the CACroach) said:

Thanks SC, for exposing Pat the Cyber harrasser. Now we have seen what lies just under his ever present shallow facade of convivial joviality.

You have done us all a service by ripping of the mask of this resentful bitter and horribly judgemental man.

The new Annie said to ''Anais Nin'': Your foot may be in your mouth.

My response to Annie:

I happen to have a terrible temper and I unleashed it on SC/David because I began to feel quite covered in slime by his lies.

I know that he (and you) love M. That is not what I am attacking. What I attacked was being told lies by him again and again as if his love for M justified him to lie and play games with people and treat them with contempt by insulting their intelligence with lies.

You missed most of his games where he came and said he was a young rebellious girl, cerise, and had us all falling for him and then turned vicious when he was thwarted. Then he came as Marolyn the dope smoking hippy premie and once again got us to befriend him then became quite psycho when we figured out that game. Lately he has been SC/Selena Crumpet.

Perhaps he just has a sick and twisted sense of humor and is not really a pathological liar. Maybe he just thinks it's hilarious to treat people with utter contempt and condescencion and thinks it's beneath his dignity to tell the truth to a bunch of exes whom he regards as mentally ill.

Either he simply enjoys playing silly games or really thinks it's okay to tell lies in the cause of M and K. I don't. That's why I left. As soon as it became difficult to explain to people in simple terms what M and K were and it became cloaked in double-talk and hint-hint nudge-nudge code, I was gone. I can't stand game-players. How can they expect to make friends when they treat them so disrepectfully? Do they tell lies to aspirants?

I could have NOT posted that diatribe against SC here because I know it makes me out to be bitter and angry because it is out of the context of the expremie forum but I did so because I don't like playing games or telling lies or covering up and keeping secrets. I know that it has made me look bad in the eyes of the premies here but it is the truth. Most of the premies here have not seen SC in the context of his deceitful game-playing on F7.

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