Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 18, 2001 To: Sep 21, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


Pat:C) -:- America the Beautiful -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 04:22:10 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: America the Beautiful -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 18:38:48 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- many Americans take our freedoms for granted -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:25:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- As a liberal dove I'm flattered -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:30:11 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Innocents Civilians and Nero. -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:08:11 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Innocents Civilians and Nero. -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 18:59:12 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- That's not fair, Anth -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:47:31 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Innocents Civilians and Nero. -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:46:27 (EDT)
__ __ Katie -:- Anth, we are all human -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:31:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- It's the same in the UK, if not worse. -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:39:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- That's disgusting -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:45:01 (EDT)
__ __ Dirk -:- Collateral Damage... -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:22:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- So, what's the ratio? -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:42:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're asking the wrong question -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:00:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- This is not about revenge I hope -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 11:12:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Cult-think, J-M -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:55:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Yes Jean-Michel. -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:16:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I agree, BUT -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 03:17:51 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Yes and no -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 04:40:47 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Britain, more warlike than the US. -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:35:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Britain, more warlike than the US. -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 07:03:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Oh yeah Dermot, I forgot. -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 07:09:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Lol Anth..but yeah, true! [nt] -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 07:27:48 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- and guess what Pat -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:07:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: and guess what Pat -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:32:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Brit snobbishness -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:18:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- something odd -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 17:52:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: something odd - mongrels -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:35:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: something odd - mongrels -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:44:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: something odd - mongrels -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:59:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Brit snobbishness -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:12:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Balance -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:58:31 (EDT)

Scott T. -:- Cities? -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:50:15 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: Cities? -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:58:29 (EDT)

Jim -:- Honestly, isn't Falwell right? -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:12:43 (EDT)
__ bill-I bet they are qouteing -:- the vile old testament. -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 17:15:34 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Look how peaceful the Koran is! -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:20:19 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- A man after my own heart -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:06:19 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Religion? -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:36:57 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Mark my words, o infidel! -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:41:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Mark my words, o infidel! -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 01:38:14 (EDT)

Suedoula -:- An Interesting Read -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:06:23 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Thanks to you -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 13:27:08 (EDT)
__ __ Suedoula -:- My handle :-) -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:50:28 (EDT)

Stonor -:- CIA/Taliban connection -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 19:42:27 (EDT)
__ Stonor -:- And ScottT ... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:33:26 (EDT)
__ __ Stonor -:- While I'm at it ... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 21:21:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: While I'm at it ... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:06:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: While I'm at it ... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:35:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: While I'm at it ... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 23:01:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: While I'm at it ... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 23:11:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: While I'm at it ... -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:04:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: While I'm at it ... -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 22:26:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Oh no, a Stonor newage Disney moment -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 21:43:49 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: And... me -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 21:05:26 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Really? People actually wrote that down? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:52:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Maybe. -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 21:09:52 (EDT)

Smoking Out -:- The Maharaji of Malibu -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:43:04 (EDT)
__ What, me worry? -:- I'm not an American Citizen -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:11:02 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- :: smoke him out of his hole :: [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:29:53 (EDT)
__ __ salsa but no ketchup -:- is coming nt ()) -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:58:38 (EDT)

Joe -:- Why I hate this insurance company -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:46:44 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: Why I hate this insurance company -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:06:55 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- It's all about stock price -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:07:31 (EDT)

btdt -:- White House -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:25:10 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- btdt -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:37:15 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: btdt -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:55:51 (EDT)
__ cq -:- Try to get your letter in the press too(nt) -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:22:40 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: White House -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:00:55 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: White House -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:31:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: White House -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:44:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, btdt, great post -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 11:42:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: White House -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:04:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I sent this to Bush -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:54:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Good one Pat, but ... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 18:17:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Mostly I meant -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 19:13:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Right own, Pat! [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:32:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- you mean to 'Dead or Alive' Bush? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:04:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bush has to be really careful... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:43:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Bush has to be really careful... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:12:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: you mean to 'Dead or Alive' Bush? -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:25:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- I'm not anti-American, Pat, but Bush frightens me -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:37:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Non-Yanks powerlessness -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:00:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Non-Yanks powerlessness -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:23:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- A different country -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 23:41:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: A different country -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:06:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: A different country, magiclara -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:21:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: A different country())())())()) -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 17:17:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: A different country())())())()) -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 17:17:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Why -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 17:20:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ dERMOT -:- nahhhhhhh Pat -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 05:38:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Brit pro-Americanism -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 20:56:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- the latest -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:31:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- and... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:36:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- The genrals have watched too many war movies -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:03:38 (EDT)

cq -:- The enemy within -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:32:02 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Fallwell apologised -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:37:17 (EDT)

Salam -:- Mind of a zealot -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:57:11 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Religious zealotry -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:42:45 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- DKA..Divine Kingdom of Amaroo [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:08:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Here is some -:- American Fundamentalist FUN -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 05:04:14 (EDT)

Silvia -:- TRUE? All gold and silver stored at the towers -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:48:05 (EDT)
__ Silvia -:- My Bet -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:53:37 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Re: TRUE? All gold and silver stored at the towers -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:55:49 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- News here, disappeared under rubble duh! [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:28:56 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- NOT SURE -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:17:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Your friend believes in conspiracy theories -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:00:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- Who told you JM -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:51:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I apologize -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 18:11:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ silvia -:- ()) -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 23:00:10 (EDT)

btdt -:- Anyone else having...... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:54:19 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- I went to da symphony -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:12:02 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- Re: Anyone else having...... -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 08:57:43 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Re: Anyone else having...... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:25:58 (EDT)
__ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Jerry - and some thoughts -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 10:59:37 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- New York, New York .. -:- Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 04:51:48 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Anyone else having...... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:59:46 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Geez... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:38:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Thanks, Joe -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:49:17 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Anyone else having...... -:- Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:06:55 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 04:22:10 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: America the Beautiful
Message:
I'm tired of the doom and gloom. Like most, I joined in the discussion, had my say in settling the world's affairs. Yes, I'm a dove and would like to see things settled diplomatically but I also know that the game needs warriors as well as diplomats. Criminals and sociopaths (like murderers, rapists and terrorists) just are not civilized enough to appreciate diplomacy. They tend to take it for weakness. Nothing works better in dealing with criminals than the good cop/bad cop scenario.

But I can't get all bummed out and pessimistic because there may be another war. I know what the limits of my say in the matter are. I can give my opinion but I do not have Colin Powell's ear so it doesn't count for much. However Powell listens to the rest of the Cabinet, to his wife, to his kids and grandkids and his neighbors.

How can people get so neurotic about conspiracy theories among ordinary people? I'll give credence to any conspiracy theory that has to do with criminals but not people whose lies and secrecy would be spotted a mile off by decent society. Those kinds of conspiracy theories are dreamed up by people who have very little faith in human beings, that most people are basically good, kind and decent.

A lot of the more pessimistic attitudes expressed here recently have been by people who don't have a very high opinion of the human race. The worst seem to have been from premies who normally regard non-premies as insane because they are operating with a crazy ''mind'' and do not have the benefit of Knowledge. For instance SC/David Roupell recently said, ''...the world is fucked up.''

This is a common belief among premies. Maybe it's because, without watching videos, they begin to feel nuts. What they haven't figured out is that they are quite sane. The incompetent and irresponsible misuse of words and ideas by their Master is what is making them crazy.

But, no matter how liberal I am and how much I dislike Bush, I have been quite surprised to see how many exes have been so pessimistic. And I'm not talking just about the Brits and the lefties. I'm a bit of both and I feel only hope for the future.

The atmosphere of doom and gloom definitely seemed to lift a bit today in San Francisco. I had to do a lot of shopping today and, as usual, I ended up talking to total strangers. Everyone was still feeling sad and shocked but the sense that we'll fix it had already returned.

I can't talk for the movers and shakers of this world but I know that they all have friends and relatives who are not movers and shakers and, in the end, in the USA, everybody's opinion counts eventually if it makes sense (or if it is your wife's and her mother's.) I know my vote does not count for much except in local politics. But in the 22 years I have lived here, I have found out that, if you talk sense, it will be repeated and repeated until it becomes part of the common sense. That's the way democracy really works. That's why freedom of expression is so important.

As an immigrant, the USA is more of a state of mind to me than an actual place. Millions of people come here every year because they are optimistic and cannot stand the doom and gloom of their own countries. Other Americans move to California or Alaska to escape what they regard as limitations on their dreams. Americans still have dreams and new frontiers to conquer. You can do whatever you want. If you work hard you will succeed at whatever you set your sights on.

We'll do it. We'll fix it and, if we fuck up, we'll try another approach. Sure there are pessimists here too but they are regarded as a bit nutty and spoilsports. The sport of the USA is the pursuit of happiness. We aren't that separate from Europe or any of the other countires from which people immigrate here. But the US has drawn all the people who have dreams and are optimistic.

So, when stuff like this happens, even in San Francisco which is more left wing and hates Bush more than anywhere else in the world probably except Afghanistan, we start thinking positively and get behind the President trusting that his title and it's responsibilities and his advisors will guide his decisions. It doesn't matter whether you like him or not or even believe that he got the job illegally. You stop thinking negatively and hope that the President will take his office seriously. There is a lot of pressure on him from many quarters to behave presidentially. He may be an asshole but, if he is halfway sane, he will not be for long. Unless of course, he has mush for brains like Reagan.

Anyway, I'm tired of the doom and gloom. I know what I am hoping for and I intend to write letters and speak about it. If my little bit helps - good. If it turns out that I don't get my way - too bad. That's democracy. I'd rather live in a democracy that is free to make mistakes and change it's mind and grow and learn than some dead, suffocated culture based on religion, superstition and old out-moded primitive philosophies.

America is the future. It's not perfect because no one knows for sure exactly where it's going but, with optimism and the will to pursue happiness as our driving force, at least our goals are bound to be better than all the fucked up religious fanatics put together.

It was no accident that I first began to doubt Rawat after being here for a couple of years. It seemed so obvious that he had nothing to offer the USA. The ideals of the enlightenment embodied in the democratic and secular principles of the Declaration of Independence are my credo and Americanism is my religion.

Even if mistakes are made, it will all come right in the end because the motives and dreams of most ordinary Americans are decent. Maybe not everyone wants health, wealth and happiness but most of the people I know do. Of course I don't know any terrorists any more.

I once did when I was squatting in a commune in the East End of London in 1970. Our commune was divided between those who thought the revolution could be brought about by being happy and making love and those who thought that happiness and love should be postponed until after the revolution. The latter were the dyed-in-the-wool Marxists who actually espoused terrorism. Eventually they left to do their dirty deeds. Guess which side I was on. But that's another story.

Yes, I know that I ramble. That's because I never know what I'm going to say until I've said it. It isn't all worked out. Some of it may make sense and some might need to be rethunk. It's boring to say what you already know for sure. I know I can say anything here because there are quite a few people who will let you know when you are wrong. I learn a lot here. It's a lot of fun.

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!

The only thing I will never forgive America for is rock-n-roll. Oh, all right some of it is okay. At least the US made up for it by producing the classical music of the 20th century - Big Band jazz. It will live forever.

PatC, with a song in my heart.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 18:38:48 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: America the Beautiful
Message:
Pat:

As an immigrant, the USA is more of a state of mind to me than an actual place.... America is the future. It's not perfect because no one knows for sure exactly where it's going but, with optimism and the will to pursue happiness as our driving force, at least our goals are bound to be better than all the fucked up religious fanatics put together.

It has always been 'foreigners' who pegged us best (Toqueville, Myrdal, etc.). Not sure why that is. Must be the contrast. I agree with you whole-heartedly. I'm not even vaguely discourged, except by all the bad judgment I see being expressed on the forum right now. It's as though there's a ban on good judgment, like it's everyone obligation to express all the tired old hackneyed anti-Americanisms they can think of. Why do I see none of that around me? I should. I live right in the middle of the 'power structure.'

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:25:54 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: many Americans take our freedoms for granted
Message:
It takes coming from countries which are less free to appreciate our freedoms here.

I was just talking to an Armenian immigrant today and we were laughing about it. His dad came here in 68 with $75 and I came here in 78 with $80. Now we both have our own businesses and are both a bit worried about the recession but figure we can always go back to washing dishes if necessary.

Immigrants bring dreams and optimism and determination to inject into an already can-do culture.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:30:11 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: As a liberal dove I'm flattered
Message:
that a conservative hawk like you even reads my posts. Just kidding. I actually think you're less of a hawk than some think and I am less of a dove than many assume. Most Americans are sensible middle-of-the-road people. Pragmatists.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:08:11 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Innocents Civilians and Nero.
Message:
Pat,

I just read a report about a survey done a few days ago in the US, which said that a big majority of Americans support military retaliation, 'even if many thousands of innocent civilians are killed.'

So it appears it's not so bad to kill innocent civilians after all, as long as they're not Americans.

I've also been reading that Bush is thinking of making US death squads legal again, so anybody who offends Washington can be shot, anywhere in the world, without trial. He's also considering changing the law on co-operating with characters who have commited or are suspecting of committing, human rights abuses.

There is immense sympathy for the US at the moment. But if Allied planes start bombing innocent Afghanis, this sympathy will dissipate.

I don't get it Pat. This seems like a war with no aim and no visible enemy.

Emporer Nero marched off to subdue the Germanic tribes across the Rhine. When he arrived there was nobody there. No army. No warriors.

His solution was to give his German bodyguard a days start, then chase them and slaughter them, returning to Rome a conquerer.

Okay, let's get out there and bomb those terrorists.

Anth the headless goat.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 18:59:12 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Innocents Civilians and Nero.
Message:
Anth:

I've also been reading that Bush is thinking of making US death squads legal again, so anybody who offends Washington can be shot, anywhere in the world, without trial.

So, you're contemplating a change of identity, huh? Why would American warplanes be bombing hoardes of innocent Afghanis if the terrorists are holed up in the mountains? Sometimes I can't follow your line of reasoning. You do recognize you're full of crap right? Surely...

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:47:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: That's not fair, Anth
Message:
So it appears it's not so bad to kill innocent civilians after all, as long as they're not Americans.

The fact is that IF a terrorist group is able to impose such humungous damage as have these guys, they have to be attacked. And now the hard part -- IF they've embedded themselves in a country that supports them and protects them, yes, the citizens of that country are obviously going to be in peril. This is so even if one assumes that, as suggested in this case, the Afhgani people do not support Bin Laden or their oppressive muslim dictators, the TalibanEven you, I bet, would agree that some measure of innocent casualties are necessary. You would, wouldn't you? Say we knew that we could completely destroy Bin Laden and his closest lieutenants but that it would certainly cost the lives of 100 entirely innocent people. Would that be acceptable? Yes? No? How about 1,000?

What numbers would you accept, Anth? None? None is an interesting answer. If everyone thought that way, all Bin Laden has to do is handcuff himself to a little kid and he's safe forever.

So before you go too far in relishing how better you are than the 'big majority of Americans' why don't you explain where you draw the line between their views and yours?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:46:27 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Innocents Civilians and Nero.
Message:
I am just as anti-war as you are, Anth, and really feel that we need to approach this as law-enforcemnt - forget about nationalities and concentrate on criminal individuals - but I also know that I am not in a position to dictate my wants. All I can do is say my piece.

However I have been reading your posts about this and must say that I have been upset several times. I know you like to make jokes but there does seem to be a bit of ivory-tower anti-American snobbishness in you and also a hint of a sour and pessimistic outlook on the human race.

I have stopped being able to tell when you are just joking. Sorry.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:31:39 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, we are all human
Message:
I read about that poll too. It was taken in the week after the attack. People here were angry and frustrated because they had just seen planeloads of innocent people being used as bombs to kill other innocent people.

Almost every government official (and I'm talking about people like Colin Powell and John McCain and Donald Rumsfeld - conservative military types) that I have heard speaking is warning the American public that this is not going to be solved by shooting off a few cruise missles. I think that would be what the much of US population would prefer to see, but it's not going to happen. It's going to take a long time, and US soldiers are likely going to get killed.

I agree about Bush's rhetoric being scary - but I think part of what he has to do is get support from the US people for what is going to be a very long campaign without instant results. He, and other adminstration officials, also keep stressing patience, which is what the people here who want retaliation are going to have to have to see this through. I think Roosevelt had to maintain a similar level of rhetoric to convince the US, which was quite isolationist at the time, to get involved in World War II after Pearl Harbor. Unfortunately, Bush is not as eloquent as Roosevelt - to say the least.

Americans of my generation haven't forgotten VietNam. But younger people have never seen a real war (except the gulf war, which was relatively fast and easy). I think that a lot of them don't really get it yet - including the fact that they might have to fight - and that is part of the reason for the poll numbers you are seeing.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:39:11 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It's the same in the UK, if not worse.
Message:
I went into the local hardware shop, in a small Cornish village, two days after the attack. The shopkeeper told me, 'We should shoot a few 'Pakis' in the UK.

There is a strong feeling of mindless anger, and lust for revenge. It's not just in the US. I've been watching warships sail out every day this week.

What is so scary is, the absolute disgust at the murder of innocent civilians in the US, is somehow seen to justify the murder of innocent civilians on the other side of the world.

This is wrong.

Innocent civilians shouldn't be killed anywhere.

But, as somebody said, 'Reason is the first casualty of war.'

Anth the gruff billygoat.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:45:01 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: That's disgusting
Message:
We know some Indian people who run two convenience store - one near us. They have had to close one of their stores early because the people who work there are scared. They told us that other convenience store owners they know are getting death threats. It's an awful situation.

Bush and many other leaders have spoken out about treating Muslim people in the US with respect and caring, but they never use those sound bites on TV - it bothers me.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:22:12 (EDT)
From: Dirk
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Collateral Damage...
Message:
I know that is a Terrible phrase. But in this case, Americans feel that we HAVE to Get these Guys BEFORE they Get US. Therefore, as Unfortunate as it is, EVEN if there are innocent civilians that UNINTENTIONALLY Lose their Life, It is necessary to wage war in order to Protect ourselves.
America will try its best to minimize those casualties. But it will not be paralyzed by the efforts of the Terrorists simply because they make it necessary to go into countries with innocent people to get them.
As An American, I am VERY sorry for ANY loss of innocent life. But I cannot tolerate the INTENTIONAL and Systematic Killing of My Innocent Brethren and the INTENTIONAL Destruction of My Country. I therefore Reluctantly but Fully support Our War effort against these Barbarians who TARGET Innocent Civilians, EVEN if there is....Collateral Damage. I hope you Understand, Anth. A HUMAN and An American..
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:42:39 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dirk
Subject: So, what's the ratio?
Message:
How many innocent Moslems should be killed before the US is happy that revenge for the estimated 6,000 dead in the New York and Washington has been exacted?

What's the ratio? I believe when the American constitution was drawn up, one white man was equal to five black men, and Native Americans didn't even count as humans.

Does anybody really think the situation will be improved by slaughtering people in one of the poorest, most war damaged countries in the world?

Bin Landen is already off to the mountains.

But shit, we've got all those guns there, and all those ships and soldiers, we've got to shoot somebody right?

Yeah, it's all starting to make sense.

It stinks.

Anth the headless goat.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:00:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You're asking the wrong question
Message:
How many innocent Moslems should be killed before the US is happy that revenge for the estimated 6,000 dead in the New York and Washington has been exacted?

God, that's unfair! How about asking this question instead:

How many innocent people must be killed before the US believes the terrorists have been punished and their threat eliminated?

That goal might bot be achievable, I know, but that's the goal people are aiming for, at least as far as I can tell.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 11:12:14 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: This is not about revenge I hope
Message:
Those fanatics are CRAZY and threatening our civilisation. What they've done is just one example of what they're out to.

Should we let them keep doing their business ? And negotiate for ages with talibans etc ? Their aim is to convert us to their faith. That's crazy. As crazy as nazis were 70 years ago.

You can't bring them to reason. They'll NEVER renounce their faith. Did you ever try to discuss with premies ? Same thing.

Allah U Akbar ....

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:55:47 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Cult-think, J-M
Message:
Yes, these terrorists are fanatical cultists. I have read your recent posts denouncing conspiracy theories and must say that I agree.

Rawat's cultists all think the world is a sick and fucked-up place just like the Muslim cultists. They have such a bitter and pessimistic view of the human race and think that only they have the answer.

It's upsetting when exes also have so little hope in the basic goodness of most human beings and see only doom and gloom. It is cult-think to be that pessimistic about people and the world.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:16:03 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yes Jean-Michel.
Message:
Those fanatics are CRAZY and threatening our civilisation. What they've done is just one example of what they're out to.

Should we let them keep doing their business ? And negotiate for ages with talibans etc ? Their aim is to convert us to their faith. That's crazy. As crazy as nazis were 70 years ago.

You can't bring them to reason. They'll NEVER renounce their faith. Did you ever try to discuss with premies ? Same thing.

Allah U Akbar ....


---

The fanatics are crazy. I agree.

But I don't think Cruise missiles can distinguish between a fanatic and a simple, ordinary, innocent civilian.

Anth the goat.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 03:17:51 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I agree, BUT
Message:
does this mean that we shouldn't try our best to eliminate these guys ? Even if some innocent get killed in the process. I hate thinking about it, but otherwise MILLIONS of innocent people will be killed. Including US.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 04:40:47 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Yes and no
Message:
Yes,overall I agree America is beautiful ....like all nations it has its murky beginnings and a history of dark deeds (Native Indian wars, slavery and other such things)but it has helped the world a lot and offered out its hand to people from all quarters. From the huddled masses emigrating from various European suppressions to tilting the balance in the two world wars .....and much much more.

No, because sadly I don't see America as the future. I see China and perhaps India as the major influences in the world if we last to the end of the 21st century.America, I think will gradually decline in power and influence but maybe not as suddenley as Britain declined from the main world power to medium sized western nation.

Incidentally, my theory on why Americans are generally positive and 'can do' about things is simply the fact that it is an immigrant society. In the early days those that had the gumption to get up and leave the home country and then survive the journey and then to (in a lot of cases)start at the bottom of the heap but in a political environment where talent and effort would be handsomely rewarded ....well what else would be the result but a positive, can do society.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:35:39 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Britain, more warlike than the US.
Message:
Dermot,

I think we are even more warlike in Britain than they are in the States.

I think we're the only country that has managed to totally exterminate two unique types of human being,- Tasmania and Tierra del Fuego.

It's difficult to find a country in the world we haven't had a war with.

A quarter of our land army, the Royal Marines, and most of the Royal Navy is already charging over the ocean to the Gulf. Christ, it's been what, 17 years already since we had a war.

Britain is the kid who joins in any fight that's going. Blair can't wait to start shooting.

We're bad enough in peacetime.

We burned France's patron Saint alive. She was 17 years old.

We invented, and perfected 'Area Bombing'- targeting civilians in war, and taught the art to the US.

We invented Concentration Camps.

We still prance around like we are a world power, when in reality, our social fabric is decaying and we are becoming one of the poorest nations in Europe.

Ah well, it could be worse.

At least I have the freedom to mouth of my views without being dragged off to a football stadium, or locked up in a cell and made part of an electricity experiment.

Thank God that someone, somewhere down the line, fought for my freedom to disagree with the status quo.

Thanks to my dad and all my Uncles who fought the Nazis in the 40s.

Thanks to the Americans, Russians, French, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Rhodesians, Canadian, Pakistanis, Indians, West Indians, Poles, Czechs, Italians, and everybody else, who gave, or offered their lives, so their children could grow up in countries, not afraid to speak and debate their opinions, even if they are not popular.

Thanks for the freedom we have.

I hope nobody's going to try and take it away again.

Anth the big gob.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 07:03:05 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Britain, more warlike than the US.
Message:
Good post Anth

Yes I forget that when cautioning Americans against gung ho ism Britain has fought the whole fucking world hahaha

And I agree with you about the 'thanks for the freedom to speak' bit....did you see the famous/infamous Question time the other night?(of US ambassador fame) When that gung ho Brit siad we and America fought the second world war for you (think he was talking to Yasmin allhi Brown) and she pointed out that 'so too did the Indians' ....I think it was hundreds of thousands Indian troops wasn't it? And all the other countries you mentioned.

Dermot

waiting for the world to begin :)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 07:09:58 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Oh yeah Dermot, I forgot.
Message:
Our national religion (Church of England) was started by a serial killer (Henry VIII).

Anth the republican pagan.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 07:27:48 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Lol Anth..but yeah, true! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:07:02 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: and guess what Pat
Message:
in my post to you below I was trying to explain how pro-American Britain actually is as well as refuting your pessimism theory and substituting cautious realism.

But you know what, if Britons had the choice (geographically/economically/politically of course it's not even really an option) whether to fully merge with Europe or become a sate of America I wouldn't be at all surprised if they chose America.

Yep Brits and Yanks are very different people (seperated by a common language as Churchill said) but whether America likes it (or even likes Brits) or not....from British eyes America is the main ally in an uncertain world.

Hhaha just think ...60 million pessimists joining with (what is it?) 300 million 'can doers' and the fourth largest economy merging with the first. Hahah.

But all this national identity stuff .....yep it has a certain validity .....but I still maintain that being a world citizen (especially in the ever growing globalisation) is the way to go . I want to collect passports! Start with Brit/Irish and see what else I can obtain hahaha.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:32:20 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: and guess what Pat
Message:
No Pat I repeat again .....cautious realism not pessimism.....

Here's a post from Joe from below:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I saw Dan Rather on Letterman the other night, and Letterman said that
whatever George W. Bush did was fine, and he was his president and he
would cooperate and do whatever is necessary for him to do what he needs to
do.

This scares me, because Dan Rather, who has been attacked by right wing
groups as being too 'liberal,' is a journalist, a news commentator. It's his job to
reveal what's going on and present all sides, not just fall in line behind his
leader. What he said kind of shocked me, although I'm sure it's very popular at
the moment.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
British jornalists (especially those who'd been attacked by right wingers in the past)generally would remain in critical mode even though immensely sympathetic......British politicians / military would caution /advise if they thought something was just based on gung ho anger or US domestic expediancy .......

Dan Rathers attitude may or not be representative of America as a whole ......if it is ......then America needs Britain and Europe badly ....because the Bush team unchecked may (only may, mind you) make the world situation a hundred times worse.

Nothing to do with pessimism.....nor anti-Americanism.If Bush leads the free world then the free world MUST have some representation (non-American taxes will be paid in dead soldiers perhaps).

PS just edited this ....can't change headers but this is from Dermot if you haven't guessed already.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:18:48 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Brit snobbishness
Message:
Dermot the funny thing is you definitely aren't one of the Brits I was thinking about when I wrote that. So far everything that you have written about this stuff has sounded perfectly balanced to me.

You haven't been taking snobby potshots and I even feel like you about nationalism - I'm a citizen of the world too. You don't seem to have a sour outlook on the human race which seems to fuel most of the pessimism. It was the snobby smarmy superiority that I was reacting to mostly.

I also am disgusted by Irish American support for the IRA. I can't speak for anywhere else except SF. SF has thousands of illegal Irish immigrants. There are Irish pubs in many neighborhoods. This has always been a very Irish town and the illegal Irish have found safe haven here. I can only imagine that it is even worse in Boston.

As one Irish FOB (fresh off the boat) said to me: ''Not only do American Jews send millions to Israel but the US government sends billions. So why can't we send a few thousand to our mates fighting the Brits?''

If you break down the white population in the US it turns out that 40% have some German blood, 30% Irish, 25% English. It won't be easy to ban financial support for the IRA.

I was raised in a country that was divided into racial groups and really am allergic to this backward-looking groupthink of some immigrant Americans. But it's the USA and it's very untidy.

All I can do is my little bit. I will not hire illegal Irish immigrants who tend to assume that I will because of my name. Most of them make me feel ashamed of my Irish blood.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 17:52:18 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: something odd
Message:
40% have some German blood, 30% Irish, 25% English

... given that most people have four parents, eight grandparents etc the eventual breakdown of all the population could total up to 800% (total melting pot) taking things back to grandparents. A lesser figure would indicate less intermixing.

I think I'm saying I can't give a meaning to these statistics. Perhaps I'm too much of a Brit mongrel, but I've got Nordic, Celtic, Jewish; and er, London. I'm sure if I looked harder and further back I could find something further flung through my maternal grandmother side. Am I counted four times; or in proportion to these ancestries, and if so, how far back?

Incidently, genetic research has shown there are people living near Cheddar (where the cheese comes from) who had ancestors in the area 3000 years ago! The wonders of modern science.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:35:47 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: something odd - mongrels
Message:
There are very few pure-blooded Americans. These figures mean than Germany has supplied 40% of the bloodline. But of course Germans married Irishmen who married Brits. Nearly everyone I know has all three lines. So, 40% whites have German blood etc.

But whites are now the minority in California and that will be the case all over by 2050.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:44:25 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: something odd - mongrels
Message:
Hi Pat and John -
Pat is right. Many of the people I know here have at least one grandparent who has ancestors been around since the early 1800's, or so. For example, my sister-in-law is of mixed English, Italian, Polish, and Peruvian Indian (Mayan?) ancestry, and that's the part she knows about... And most of these people can't say what proportion of what nationality they are for sure - sometimes because their parents didn't want to say. I know my ancestry, but that's because my grandparents all were first generation immigrants from Sweden, Switzerland, or Germany.

I thought it was like that in many places besides the US, but guess it's not.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:59:18 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: something odd - mongrels
Message:
It's like that in South Africa too. Katie. Another country of immigrants. I'm quarter Irish, English and Dutch and one-eighth French and Jewish. But all the original Dutch settlers also made babies with Hottentots and Malays and most Afrikaners have 5% Hottentot and Malay blood but they won't admit it.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:12:06 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Brit snobbishness
Message:
Hi Pat

Yeah, ultimately we are all on this one relatively small world ....maybe when we get invaded by aliens we'll realise our earthlingness ....but then we'll probably strive to be a citizen of the universe not just the world :)

The thing is ....I obviously can't deny the fact that I'm Irish/English ....and I think there are great things about both countries. Both countries have given the world great people.
However, I don't see the need to identify religiously/passionately with a country to the detriment of the rest of the world.

.......I think I'll stop posting for a while again .....all this politics, sociology etc ......time for a breather !I can barely get into thinking about Maharaji/K/exness .....it just seems so petty in the scheme of things at the moment. But it is an ex-premie forum and I've posted about everything but that !!

Cheers Pat

Ps have you been all over the states or did you head for SF straight away?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:58:31 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Balance
Message:
I'm such a ficking liberal I always see both sides too clearly and there's no one all bad or all good. It's probably because I have lived on three continents and am such a mixed-blood bastard. But I detest criminals and social predators.

I've lived in SF for 20 of the 22 years I've been here and have travelled more in the US than anywhere else including driving across country six times. The only place I am completely happy is SF because of it's multiracial population mostly and the fact that it is not ghettoized. It's not perfect but it's as close to paradise on earth for me as I've yet found.

Okay I agree, let's get back on topic. Yeah right. It'll play itself out. Anyway I will have to limit my participation here soon as I am having to expand my business to keep up with the changing needs and demographics - more take-out food and frozen stuff etc. Generation X is marrying and settling down and is eating out less but still doesn't like cooking.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:50:15 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Cities?
Message:
Suppose we're unsuccessful; Bush blows it, whatever. Do we need 'em?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:58:29 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Cities?
Message:
We don't need cities, specifically. We need shelter. But if the cities are destroyed, we'll have less people, so we won't need skyscrapers.

And where the climate is cold we'll need heating oil; the forests will only last so long as fuel.

And when the cities are gone and we don't have TV or movies or shopping malls, we're liable to get very grumpy. No doubt some of us will resort to terrorism to even the score with the suckers that caused all these problems.

Here's an alternative theory on who bombed the WTC...
http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/fr/fr010919_1_n.shtml
[ Janes ]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:12:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Honestly, isn't Falwell right?
Message:
As everyone must know, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, two American christian leaders, recently agreed with each other that the real explanation for the WTC attack was that God was punishing the states for leading a collective life of sin. Of course he had Scriptural backup for these views. I haven't seen it myself but I remember a post or email about a year ago where someone collected some of the harsher moral pronouncements and denunciations in the Good Book. I wouldn't be surprised if the Bible's says just what Falwell says it does. So, to the extent that one interprets the Bible strictly and literally, Falwell may indeed be right.

Isn't it a little scary that we have all these so-called 'great' religions, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, that are completely rooted on so-called holy texts and yet as soon as people start taking those texts literally we've got a real problem? I don't know. Doesn't look too healthy to me.

I'd say that, at a minimum, all these Holy Books should carry big, bold warnings on the cover:

FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY

Then, of course, we have a whole world full of middlemen trying to sell their own softened versions of these strange and dangerous religions. Seeing various religious leaders play their little make-believe games, trying to tell us what so-called God 'really' wants, what he 'really' means, I can almost sympathize with the strict literalist who says 'Screw that! It means what it says and that's it.'

No one will ever be able to persuade me ever again that religion does more good in the world than bad. Hardly.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 17:15:34 (EDT)
From: bill-I bet they are qouteing
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: the vile old testament.
Message:
Not that the new is void of crapola
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:20:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Look how peaceful the Koran is!
Message:
I got these quotes from an Indian site all about how pissed off they are that Islam invaded India. Does the Koran really say these things? If so, big surprise that it'd give us a little trouble now and then. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure a lot of religions are this dangerous. But now Islam's under the spotlight:

1. On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. (The Cow: 161 )

2. Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. ( The Cow: 15 )

3. The worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful, who will not believe. (Spoils of War: 55)

4. Oh ye who believe! the non-Muslims are unclean. (Repentance:17)

5. Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you. (Repentance: 123)

6. Oh believers, do not treat your fathers and mothers as your friends, if they prefer unbelief to belief, whosoever of you takes them for friends, they are evil-doers. (Repentance: 20) 7. Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute. ( Repentance: 29 )
[ Hindu resentment of Islam ]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:06:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A man after my own heart
Message:
Now more than ever witnessing hell has made me a born-again atheist.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Lauren Sandler

Sept. 14, 2001 | NEW YORK -- Walking down Houston Street in New York this afternoon, in what a few days ago was the shadow of the Twin Towers, a woman lowered the umbrella that had been shielding her daughter and herself from the tapering rain. 'Those were God's tears,' she explained to her little girl.

My mother had a very different explanation for her daughter today. 'To me, this rain is proof that there is no God,' she said on the phone from Boston. 'People say that God can't help terrorism, that he gives people freedom to act as they choose. Fine. But a God who would hinder the rescue workers with rain? If God can't control nature, then what's the point? How can anyone believe today?'

It's a bewildering day for us atheists, this state-appointed 'Day of Prayer and Remembrance.' Like the faithful, we mourn. We look for guidance. We look for answers. Our commander in chief tells us to find solace in churches and temples. In those churches and temples, people stand at podiums, survey their mass of grief-stricken congregants and intone the unfathomable words 'God will protect us.'

Like many New Yorkers, I've seen the shattering hell of mass destruction this week. None of this is metaphor: I have touched the ash-covered shoulders of gasping survivors. I have trudged through the debris that thickly coats the ghost town of Tribeca, staring in shock at the five-story pyre that was a tower of human life and achievement. I have watched families crumple into each other in shaking, tear-soaked sorrow outside St. Vincent's Hospital when they are told, no, there is no information about your sister, your husband, your daughter. And I have done so without experiencing what some people have described to me as a uniting surge of faith in some omniscient, everlasting force that will make us all whole again.

E-mail story


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I have long wondered if in the face of tragedy I would suddenly rely on faith. As a member of a generation that came of age in a peacetime society, I have always assumed that this transcendent tragedy would mean losing my mother or father. I've seen friends -- skeptics like me -- pray in the aftermath of such personal suffering. One of the lucky ones this week, I've lost nobody close in the rubble downtown. Perhaps if I had, I would seek solace in those exalted institutions that offered comfort to millions today.

Instead, like my mother's, my atheism has only been strengthened by this week of human catastrophe. At a 'Healing Eucharist' service at a church around the corner form St. Vincent's hospital, I got up to leave when the rector chanted: 'Bless the Lord who forgives our sins,' and the congregation responded: 'His mercy endures forever.' In a nearby house of alternative healing, I snuck out the side door when I was told, 'As spiritual seekers we must understand these things happen for a purpose. If we don't accept that, all we'll have is anger and animosity in our hearts.' I believe anger and animosity is an appropriate response to mass murder.

But while my Day of Prayer has been free of trust in saints, swamis and shamans, it has not been without a resurrection of sorts. Again and again this week, I have found my faith restored by the immeasurably selfless valiance of earthly heroes. Last night I met a holy trinity of ironworkers among the believers who congregated on the western end of Houston Street. There, on the corner of Sixth Avenue, was a mass of citizens waving flags and cheering for each truckload of rescue workers speeding north for a few hours of rest before reentering the inferno.

Mike, Ron and Steve are all local ironworkers who were blowing off steam with a few six-packs of Bud, yelling AC/DC lyrics and flirting with girls before they headed south for another 15-hour shift. (That's how they were planning to spend their Day of Prayer, fighting smoke and falling debris to cut steel beams away from trapped bodies.) These guys, and thousands like them, marched into ground zero without training or enough fear to hold them back.

'It's too graphic,' said Steve, as he fidgeted with the gauze that covered a new wound. 'Piles of death. I don't have the words to tell you. But nothing's gonna keep me away from going back.' Mike wrapped a grime-blackened arm around his buddy Ron, still wearing his hard hat. 'Let me tell you, I hung my head low today,' he said. We left a lot of dead people today. But I've got faith in my boys here. True faith. Religious faith. We're ironworkers! And we'll show them what America can take; I don't care if we have to die trying.'

Of course many of these rescuers are strong believers, able -- some say obligated -- to do their brave work because of their faith in God. But listening to the parade of preachers speak in the National Cathedral today, it was these dusty and unshaven faces that I meditated upon like religious icons.

With this astonishing human bravery to bless America, who needs God?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:36:57 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Religion?
Message:
No one will ever be able to persuade me ever again that religion does more good in the world than bad. Hardly.

So, you propose that we wage the battle against terrorism raising the flag of atheism? That'll go over big. Ever think about trying out for the cast of the Red Green Show?

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:41:27 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Mark my words, o infidel!
Message:
Scott,

You might say I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us ...

IF evolution's true in all its implications then this God our father stuff is sheer fantasy and sooner or later, perhaps many, many light years in the future, one would expect the word will get out. Of course that 'if' ain't no if for me anymore so I'm just sitting here waiting.

Waiting for ungodo, I guess.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 01:38:14 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mark my words, o infidel!
Message:
Jim:

That's alright. On second thought the comment didn't seem funny to me somehow. Perhaps it's the death of irony, as Roger Rosenblatt suggests. To me it just makes no sense to talk about God or Ungod. I honestly don't think it's either. We have about as much grasp on this universe as a clam does on the environment of Mars. Of course, I don't really know that... being a clam and all.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:06:23 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: All
Subject: An Interesting Read
Message:
Thought you all might find this of interest.
[ Bush is walking into a trap ]
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 13:27:08 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Thanks to you
Message:
Suedoula:

Thanks for this, and I've been reading your posts and enjoying your contributions to the discussions. Does your handle translate to 'Sue aloud'??

Best wishes,

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 15:50:28 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: My handle :-)
Message:
Francesca,

I like that -- but no -- I am a doula. I support women and their partners during childbirth. But what an interesting take on my name :-)

Best,
Susan

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 19:42:27 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: All
Subject: CIA/Taliban connection
Message:
I'm sure I read something like this here somewhere, but this seems to be more detailed, and there are other interesting articles/info here.
[ COAT article on CIA/Taliban ]
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:33:26 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: And ScottT ...
Message:
Thanks for your post below. I had made a note of the book by Adler you had posted about previously, as well as the excerpt. If I've understood correctly, his work is based on the premise that humanity's primary motivation is the will to power. This could easily be a 'cult'ural phenomon. I tend more towards Victor Frankl's theory (supported by a John Hopkin's University study) that humanity's primary motivation is the will to meaning. This could well underly the cultic attraction for many.

I've tried to find my copy of a booklet by Aldous Huxley, 'What Are You Going To Do About It? The Case for Reconstructive Peace,' but due to the moving of furniture and bookcases, I haven't been able to put my hands on it yet.

My all time favourite quote somewhat related to this topic is 'All history is the history of crime,' Gurdjieff. Helped me to put my finger on my aversion to history from an early age - all those dates of wars, treaties, etc. - yuck, and it keeps repeating itself, too!

I can only hope for the best for the good of all concerned, at this time.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 21:21:17 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: While I'm at it ...
Message:
One of my other favourite comments on history is from Merton's translation of The Way of Chuang Tzu:

When Life Was Full There Was No History

In the age when life on earth was full, no one paid any special attention to worthy men, nor did they single out the man of ability. Rulers were simply the highest branches on the tree, and the people were like deer in the woods. They were honest and righteous without realizing that they were 'doing their duty.' They loved each other and did not know that this was 'love of neighbour.' They deceived no one yet they did not know that they were 'men to be trusted.' They were reliable and did not know that this was 'good faith.' They loved freely together giving and taking, and did not know that they were generous. For this reason their deeds have not been narrated. They made no history.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:06:09 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: While I'm at it ...
Message:
I once did a painting of what I thought the meaning behind Thomas Merton's message. I dropped a bunch of paint doused pennies onto a wet canvas and let them dribble off the sides. True story.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:35:22 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: stonor21@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: While I'm at it ...
Message:
Hmmmmm .... we're not talking The Way of Chuang Tzu here, are we? I never thought of him having a 'message,' per se. I read his Seven Story Mountain the same as I read Dag Hammerskjold's Markings; I felt that they were simply sharing their paths with others who might be able to relate. Both books helped me a lot in a similar way.

You've really got me curious ... if you don't feel like posting what your painting signified, you could email me. What colour(s) of paint did you use, and I gather none of the pennies 'stuck'? And although I believe you, I still wanted to begin with, 'You're joking, right?' ;)

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 23:01:23 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: While I'm at it ...
Message:
Stonor:

I think I was crazy at the time. Browns and yellows. Earth colors. I guess the point is that I think I captured the essence of what he was saying, and there just wasn't much there for me. If you want to talk about the value of a whimsical view of history I prefer 'The Circular Ruins.' 'A Universal History of Infamy,' is pretty timely too.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 23:11:31 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: While I'm at it ...
Message:
Oh Scott, you've disappointed me! My curiousity is not at all satisfied by your response! ;)

No details of what it was you were 'interpreting' or why you bothered to express it at all if there wasn't much there for you, and then two titles without authors ... you must be very tired! Me too. Off to bed!

Anna

(but thanks for at least telling me what colours you used! :)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:04:53 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: While I'm at it ...
Message:
I'm satisfied that you liked the colors. That's pretty obviously Merton. I also think I arrived at the dropping of the pennies because of the I-Ching. Something about the inscrutability of the pentograms and the way the language connected with Merton and his homely retreat and the 'this is the way you find it' surroundings. The point is that I don't know the configuration the pennies ultimately took, so I had no burden to interpret them. Now the fall of the pennies have become a titanic crime scene.

O joy, the Vuelta de Espana! What a treat!

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 22:26:28 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: While I'm at it ...
Message:
So, Jorge Luis Borges ... I found and read the Circular Ruins on-line, but as you already know, I'll have to get the book to read the other. One thing it shares in common with the Gurdjieff pov (and others, no doubt), is that we are all dreaming that we are awake. Maybe I'll get back to you about the book of short stories at some point. Thanks for the reference.

Do you mean 'trigrams' as opposed to 'pentograms'? I like this part, 'The point is that I don't know the configuration the pennies ultimately took, so I had no burden to interpret them. Now the fall of the pennies have become a titanic crime scene.' Very poetic - do you write (apart from the obvious ;)? I've always enjoyed the I-Ching, although I haven't thrown it in years, because it helped me to consider situations from a different perspective, and I never felt a 'burden to interpret them' because the broadening effect seemed so gentle. It was once surprisingly clear message for me 3 times in a row, except that in the third throw there was no more moving line. I had had a great deal of difficulty accepting the obvious, which is what it pointed out to me - my state of total exhaustion! And no, no joke!

Anna

(Should I throw it again and ask about our current global crisis? ;)

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 21:43:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Oh no, a Stonor newage Disney moment
Message:
How fortunate we are, Stonor, to have your gifts.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 21:05:26 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: And... me
Message:
Stonor:

Thanks for the response. You take it easy.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:52:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Really? People actually wrote that down?
Message:
My all time favourite quote somewhat related to this topic is 'All history is the history of crime,' Gurdjieff.

Can't believe what passes for wisdom in some circles. Gurdjieff's quote is a classic -- broad-sweeping, dramatic but, on even a moment's reflection, inane.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 21:09:52 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maybe.
Message:
Jim:

Can't believe what passes for wisdom in some circles. Gurdjieff's quote is a classic -- broad-sweeping, dramatic but, on even a moment's reflection, inane.

Maybe so, but if Adler is correct the history of war is the history of the absence of a criminal standard; and authority to deal with it.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:43:04 (EDT)
From: Smoking Out
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Maharaji of Malibu
Message:
Oh my Guru Maharaj Ji(sorry, but that was the hypnotic suggestion you placed on your website),

Anyways, now is the time your version of K should be most evident. Why isn't it? How can your followers HELP the world not your interests in this very perilous time?

It's time to put up or shut up. Now, is not the time for you to hide in your divine rat hole nor for your followers to hide within. Now is the time for what your followers have learned to shine. It is not the time for them to distort your past on yet another non-interactive website.

Now is the time to help save the world not hide from your murky past.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:11:02 (EDT)
From: What, me worry?
Email: None
To: Smoking Out
Subject: I'm not an American Citizen
Message:
I am an Indian Nationalist. At least that's what I told the French.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:29:53 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Smoking Out
Subject: :: smoke him out of his hole :: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:58:38 (EDT)
From: salsa but no ketchup
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: is coming nt ())
Message:
yeap
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:46:44 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Why I hate this insurance company
Message:
In case anyone needed another reason to hate the insurer American International Group (AIG), AIG's president, Hank Greenberg is now calling for a procedure to deal with all World Trade Center liability claims through arbitration 'without involving juries'. I'm sure he only has the interests of the survivors at heart. Hank also says insurers expect to make the losses up within two years, and that AIG is likely to buy firms damaged by the attack. The word "vulture" comes to mind. Time to buy AIG stock?

As an aside, AIG is one of the largest insurers in the USA and by far the most profitable. It has a well-deserved reputation of refusing to pay claims and forcing policyholders to go to court (at very great expense that many can't afford) to get them to meet their contractual obligations. I have been on the opposite side of them many times and can provide a number of notorious horror stories for anyone who is interested. So, Hank's comments go right in line with previous behavior.

By the way, and not mentioned in Hank's recent statement, his brother, Jeff Greenberg, is CEO of Marsh, Inc., the world's largest insurance broker, which currently lists 313 of its employess as missing from its offices on floors 93-100 of WTC 1.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:06:55 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Why I hate this insurance company
Message:
Most of the major news channels have been reporting that the all the major insurers are going to just pay the claims, even without a death certificate (which in this case could take many months). I'm surprised Hank Greenberg didn't wait a while to pull this rabbit out of his hat. In a few months, this wouldn't get that much air-time.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:07:31 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: It's all about stock price
Message:
Hank is interested in puffing up the stock price of AIG. Insurers have been hit hard in the market in the past few days. I think that's why he is saying this. AIG isn't much of a life insurer, mostly property and casualty.

By the way, Jeff Greenberg, the CEO of Marsh, is actually Hank's son and not his brother.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:25:10 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: All
Subject: White House
Message:
We don't all agree on this forum the best way to handle this terrible situation that is in the world right now, but I know we would all like it to end peacefully.

If anyone cares to send the President a message, log on to the White House site, go to President Bush, scroll down and the e-mail connection is right there.

This was scary for me to do but I felt I had to do, to try and make my voice heard. If you feel the same, it is quite easy to do.

I don't think the president has an easy job before him, but I do think he holds many options. I also think he stands at a point in history when he can attempt to give peace a chance first. I know many of you won't agree with this. Maybe some of you will. Whatever your stance, let the White House know. There is much intelligence on this forum.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 00:37:15 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: btdt
Message:
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_403139.html?menu=news.latestheadlines

Thought you'd like this. I reckon this is the point you're making.
[ Page Link ]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:55:51 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: btdt
Message:
Thank you. Very eloquent. This is an interesting site.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:22:40 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Try to get your letter in the press too(nt)
Message:
Try to get your letter published in the press too.

(Better chance of getting read, IMO).

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:00:55 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: White House
Message:
What did you write to the White House? Give peace a chance? There has to be some form of negotiation for that to happen. Unfortunately, the bombings didn't come with a list of demands. Most sources say the network of terrorist cells involved in this, only want to destroy America.

How about 'turn the other cheek'? Is that what you mean? Sadly, the other cheek is probably going to get whacked whether we turn it or not.

I'm wondering if the real fallout from this won't be the economy. It's really the common denominator we're depending on at the end of the day. If the terrorists aim to destroy America, that's where the most bang for the terrorist buck is going to be. One more strike and we may be close to an economic depression.

Killing off our entire poplulation won't happen. If the terrorists were to use any biological or nuclear weapons here, I'm certain we'll be nuking a dozen middle-eastern countries to oblivion.

The scenario we're in now is really a crap-shoot. Dubya doesn't have the brains or skill to do much but keep his face steely. The smarter people around him are just flipping coins and hoping everything turns out alright. I think the most we hope for is good luck.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:31:35 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: White House
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:44:09 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: White House
Message:
I may not have the gift of prose or steely logic. I only wrote what means the most to me. If I could complile all the pros and cons of this forum, I'd vote for Such's suggestion.

I don't know how old you are, what country you're from. I'm 48. I was 16 years old during the prime of Viet Nam. My father was recalled into active naval duty and sent to Adak, Alaska. As my mother and I were in the Anchorage airport waiting for the plane to take us to Adak, the naval base in the Aleutian islands, companies of very young men set in dead silence waiting to board their final flights to Viet Nam. Anchorage was the last American soil they were ging to see before facing their unkown future. They sat, stone quiet and scared to death.
That same year, some months later, my father was sent to Oakland, Calif naval base hospital due to a serious car accident. This hospital was filled with capacity with Viet Nam vets. At sixteen, I got to spend many months visiting my father and watching these young men come with missing limbs, eyes, injuries too numberous to list. Emotionally, they were a wreck. The drug addiction was rampant. My most vivid memory is of a man with only a torso, racing down the hospital hills on a gurney with his pals pushing him.

Maybe it's naive to think giving peace a chance is possible. But as much as I have never cared for Bush senior or junior, I think this man, for whatever reason, is in a position to make a big impact. They know he's not kidding and he holds the cards to give the Saudi's, Muslim's and Israeli's face saving outs. Laugh at me if you will, but I've seen first hand the before and after effects of war on human life.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 11:42:26 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Thanks, btdt, great post
Message:
I think there are more people who feel like you do in this country than people in other parts of the world give us credit for. Vietnam scarred our whole generation - and many of us are still alive and can remember scenes like the ones you so movingly wrote about.

Love - and hope you are all right,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:04:25 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: White House
Message:
No, I'm not laughing at you at all. I'll be 49 in January. I'm just trying to point out some hard truths. Bush is a guy who was frying people in Texas before he became president. I find him simple and cold.

The people in New York and Washington died terrible deaths. Their children and spouses are going to be suffering for a long time. Some of the families will never have closure because the bodies of their loved ones won't be found.

The people cleaning up the mess at the WTC are also suffering; some of them undoubtedly will have post-traumatic stress syndrome.

People want revenge or justice and don't realize there isn't any end to that. I understand what you're trying to say.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:54:56 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: I sent this to Bush
Message:
Food, Propaganda, Law Enforcement

I am hoping that at least some of the war-chest will be spent on food bombs and propaganda. Pamphlets stuffed into food bombs offering huge rewards for info leading to the terrorists and then, rather than kill them, arrest them and bring them to trial. If they resist arrest send in the army to get them. That's not war. It's law enforcement.

Request that CNN pick up the story about Cassell and Mercer, the two American women imprisoned unlawfully by the Taliban. Milk this human tragedy for all it's worth. Stir up the outrage and indignation of the civilized world against this atrocity. Warn the Taliban that if they are not released that we will come and get them and then do it. If they are still held captive illegally then remove their captives. This is not war it is law enforcement.

Use CNN in the cities and food/pamphlet bombs in the countryside and blanket the mideast with the truth about the Taliban cult fanatics and what their insane plans will lead to. Warn the terrorists to surrender now and face trial or we will arrest them. If they resist arrest, take them by force. The same applies to all their aiders and abettors.

This needs to be thought of as law enforcement not war. That word seems to bring the worst out of the toothless impotent old warmongers willing to use other peoples' kids for cannon fodder. Call it law enforcement, invest it with the righteousness of protecting civilization and democracy.

But no deliberate killing just for the sake of revenge. Some killing may occur in the course of subduing those resisting arrest or in self-defense against criminals. Our first concern obviously will be for the safety of those law abiding citizens in whom we have vested the authority to enforce the laws of civilization in our name.

And no killing as punishment for the crime after the trial. Sentence them to life imprisonment and throw away the key. But why should civilized people such as us stoop to killing like those who would destroy civilization? Killing is for barbarians like the terrorists.

Civilized people can only kill with a clear conscience in self-defense or in the defense of loved ones such as Cassell and Mercer or in defense of our civil rights. Never in retaliation.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 18:17:05 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Good one Pat, but ...
Message:
... CNN has just been kicked out of Afghanistan. The Taliban can't guarantee the reporter's safety. Hmmm.

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 19:13:10 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Mostly I meant
Message:
...using CNN and other world news services to disseminate the offer of a reward in the cities and to continue to show the horror of terrorism against innocent civilians and not let people forget about Cassell and Mercer etc.

I have to believe that most ordinary moms and dads anywhere in the world don't want war. I really believe in the power of propaganda - good and bad.

But neither am a knee-jerk dove. We have to do what we have to do but it needs to be seen as keeping the world safe for civilized values not as primitive retaliation. That just buys into the barbarism.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:32:33 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Right own, Pat! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:04:28 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: you mean to 'Dead or Alive' Bush?
Message:
Can I be forgiven for thinking he wants a return to the lawless old days of the wild west?
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:43:26 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Bush has to be really careful...
Message:
In personalizing this. To some extent, his Father did the same thing with Saddam Hussein and paid the price for at first comparing him to Hitler, and then not taking the opportunity to overthrow his government when we had 300,000 troops, all all kinds of fire power to do it. It's one of the reasons Bush Sr. lost the election a year later to Clinton. Bush's approval rating was 91% right after the Gulf War, and dropped to the mid-30s within about 6 months. In a way, he set himself up for failure.

Same thing with his even less eloquent son. If bin Laden becomes the new Hitler, if he is captured or killed, there might not be much stomach to do anything more. Plus, if he fails in getting him, his continued existence, and possible new terrorist acts, might dog the rest of Bush's presidency.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:12:49 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Bush has to be really careful...
Message:
All of which are excellent reasons for going after Saddam first.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:25:50 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: you mean to 'Dead or Alive' Bush?
Message:
Right now he's saying stuff to mollify the anger of Americans but cooler heads will prevail. He does not operate in isolation. I'm not a fan of his and despise the way he usurped his office but he is part of a team and the US really is a democracy. He has to listen to reason eventually or else he will be discredited. Right now Yanks are blowing off steam. Eventually we'll do whatever is good for business and that is not always a bad thing. It means making money to put kids through college and having fun - what most people want even in the Mid East.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:37:20 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I'm not anti-American, Pat, but Bush frightens me
Message:
Yes, I admit it, Bush frightens me.

First it was 'war, war, war' against ... who could tell? (Bin Laden's own sister lives in London, so were we 'harbouring' a terrorist?)

Which frightened me (and God knows how many others).

Then he claimed it was 'good against evil'. (Bush? the one who quit the Kyoto agreement - good???)

Now it's the 'beacon of freedom and democracy' calling for someone's head on a platter.

Hmmmm .... pardon me if I choose to dissent?

For instance, this just in:

Is the US rethinking its chances re. Afghanistan?

quote:

The US has for the first time suggested more than one foreign
power was behind last week's terrorist attacks.

US attorney general John Ashcroft has said it was likely the
terrorists behind the attacks received support from foreign
governments and that it was too early to tell if surprise arrests in
Michigan were a major break in the case.

It is pretty clear that the networks that conduct these kind of
events are harboured, supported, sustained and protected by a
variety of foreign governments,' he said.

'It is time for those governments to understand with crystal
clarity that the United States of America will not tolerate that
kind of support for networks that would inflict this kind of
damage on the American people.'

endquote

Full report:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554399,00.html

(thinks - weren't the IRA terrorists partially funded by donations primarily from New York? Or is the IRA a different kind of terrorist? (admittedly they usually give warnings of their bomb-attacks ... but terrorism is terrorism isn't it, Mr Bush?)

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:00:39 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Non-Yanks powerlessness
Message:
Perhaps some of the pessimism comes from not having a voice in American politics. Bush is an opportunistic politician. He executed criminals in Texas because that's what his constituency wanted. He is talking war because that's what Yanks want right now. But not all of us are gungho and the hoi-poloi screaming for blood right now will soon get bored with it and go back to watching Jerry Springfield on TV while the sane and sensible who really run the country as a team will prevail.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 22:23:57 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Non-Yanks powerlessness
Message:
Pat:

You must be witnessing a different country than I. In fact, I don't even see anyone screaming for blood. Once in awhile maybe, through tears. I still come back to a different image, one of climbing a sheer precipice, the top of which can't quite be seen. One slip... But the consequences of *not* climbing are unthinkable.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 23:41:20 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: A different country
Message:
Actually no, Scott. I think we are in the same country. That was an unfortunate phrase no doubt elicited by the Brits ''nervousness'' and somewhat hysterical perception of us.

The main thrust of my argument with the Brits is that they are nervous nellies and far too pessimistic and often seem to forget that the US is a democracy in which the President and all his men are beholden not only to each other but also their wives, kids and neighbors.

I'm simply living in another country from the Brits and I had forgotten how pessimistic they are.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:06:50 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: A different country
Message:
Not all of us brits are pessimistic, not all muslims are terroists, not all americans....you get my drift.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 14:21:37 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Re: A different country, magiclara
Message:
It was the snobby smarmy Brit superiority that I was reacting to mostly and I haven't heard that from you. Yes, and you are right to chastise me for generalizing.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 17:17:44 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: A different country())())())())
Message:
Fair comment Pat())())())())())())
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 17:17:43 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: A different country())())())())
Message:
Fair comment Pat())())())())())())
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 17:20:16 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Why
Message:
Why did it do it twice I detest computers())())())())
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 05:38:59 (EDT)
From: dERMOT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: nahhhhhhh Pat
Message:
I'm laughing now ( not sarcastically!) ....but it has nothing to do with pessimism (or optimisism !) .....in my view it's just being cautious/realistic and there's a big difference.

Also Brits and Europeans are more sussed than you think about America and I think most people DON'T forget that America is democratic. We know the cowboys, hillbillies, Eastcoasters, Westcoasters etc etc are a diverse,multi-faceted ,country. We know there is an intelligent, middle class. We know the place is chock- a- block with great academics, scientists.....we know Bush is right when he says you have the greatest entrepreneurs.All this is common knowledge.

BUT we have witnessed superpower Americas foreign policy/sensibilities/achievements in our lifetime and post-2nd world war it aint too impressive. There's nthing pessimistic about that. Of course the 'west' as a whole is as cupable in all this but America is the 'wests' leader. Washington is the capitol of the free world.

That's all. You'd be surprised to learn perhaps that 3/4 of Brits support military action to help America. After being out of UK for a while you'd be surprised to learn that UK is in many respects almost the 50 odd (whatever it is) state of the union. It's very Americanised in many respects here but it has also kept its essentially Britishness. This country as a whole is not anti-American ....of course us posters here from these shores, I'm sure you know we are a minority here. All sport has paid respects, flags at half mast still, like over there we are assaulting innocent muslims in retaliation, the press is broadly sympatheic with going along with the Americans in the up and coming fight against terrorism.

Remeber Britain happily contributed special forces and a regular army of 50.000 in the Gulf war.Most Britons feel closer to Americans than to Europeans.Anerican sitcoms, movies etc are lapped up/////////and on and on

I'm just observing here , I'm not a rabid Brit or anything.....but people here really do feel that when America was attacked so too were we and there'll be no qualms from the mass of Britons about supporting and fighting along side America if that's what's needed.

The Brits just hope you listen to their politicians/military as well as your own. That's the crux of it I think. Cautious but willing and able would sum up the Brit response to Americas request for help.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 20:56:55 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: dERMOT
Subject: Brit pro-Americanism
Message:
I missed this during my hunt and peck foray on the forum this morning. I lived in UK for 8 years and I know that most of them see things very much like we do. I didn't mean Brits as a whole but some of the Brits posting on the forum. A few ivory-tower snob lefties who seem to think all Yanks are dumb.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:31:10 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: the latest
Message:
The latest is that the Taliban responded to the demand they turn over Bin Laden with a request to meet with Bush or the U.S. government. Bush said the time for talking is over.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 16:36:33 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: and...
Message:
the name of this military operation has been dubbed by the U.S. government as 'Operation Infinite Justice'. Sounds like a Hollywood movie.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 17:03:38 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: The genrals have watched too many war movies
Message:
I agree it is sickening but common sense will prevail It always does eventually in the US. People listen to each other and argue and blow off hot air but in the end most people have got kids and don't want them shipped home in body bags. Since Vietnam most sane Yanks have no taste for war.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:32:02 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The enemy within
Message:
America - the enemy within

quote:

The cruellest, sickest response to the calamity of September 11
has come from an unexpected quarter. Not from America's
traditional enemies, but from within. Voiced not by Muslim
radicals consumed with hatred for the Great Satan, but by two
self-styled American super-patriots.

Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, the grand old men of America's
Christian right, were swift to tell Americans who was to blame.
'The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because
God will not be mocked,' Falwell, onetime leader of the Moral
Majority, told Robertson as they sat together on the latter's
Christian Broadcasting Network. 'I really believe that the pagans
and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and
lesbians... I point the finger in their face and say: 'You helped
this happen'.'

endquote

Full report at http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,554292,00.html

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:37:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Fallwell apologised
Message:
Yes, with loony fundamentalists like that who needs Osama hasn't bin laid in years?

Falwell may be a nut (Tinky-winky is gay because he is purple) but he usually does not hesitate to eat humble pie.

Robertson on the other hand is quite insane and bloody scary.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:57:11 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Mind of a zealot
Message:
Pakistan's jihad

One thing I agree with Jim in his post few days ago about religion, it's poison.

I just can't understand why those people are mixing donkies and horses together. Looks like those people live at a time different from us.

I saw a documentry today about Mujahideen recrutment agencies, they have something like a Mujahedeen day, where all the village people comes out cheering and justling and the suicide bombers with explosives rapped around their bodies are paraded. Unbelievable shit. They have so many people enlisting that they have to turn them down.

By the end of the parade all the crowed makes an oath to sacrifice themselves.

it's like one of those Nazi parades where the speakers are blasting away, the air is electric and everyone is turned into a zoombie.

Something out of a nightmare.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:42:45 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Religious zealotry
Message:
Yes, it is scary. Especially when a nation is run by religion and is not secular. The fucked up American fundamentalists want Jehovah in the White house too or at least Ayatollah Robertson on the Supreme Court. Can you imagine if Rawat ruled a country? No, I don't want to. I prefer getting a good night's sleep to thinking about nightmares like that.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 15:08:52 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: DKA..Divine Kingdom of Amaroo [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 05:04:14 (EDT)
From: Here is some
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: American Fundamentalist FUN
Message:

[ Fundamentalist Fun ]
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:48:05 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: TRUE? All gold and silver stored at the towers
Message:
dissapeared? A friend heard it on the news but nothing have been said after that one time.

After the attack the gold and silver appeared missing. does anyone knows about it?

Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:53:37 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: My Bet
Message:
Apparently it was removed before the attack.

sorry for the confussion. ;())

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 11:55:49 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: TRUE? All gold and silver stored at the towers
Message:
The Comex precious metal exchange was housed in the WTC, and there was 12 tons of gold stored in the basement. Obviously it is still there, and they'll find it eventually.

This is common knowledge, not a conspiracy theory and there is nothing suspicious about the fact that the gold exchange was warehousing gold in the building.

Saying it has 'disappeared' well, I haven't heard that, but I don't see how that is possible unless it was removed before the destruction.

How could anyone even know if it was gone with all that rubble on top of the basement?

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:28:56 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: News here, disappeared under rubble duh! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:17:28 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: NOT SURE
Message:
Mu friend said that she heard only the last part of the news and I asked the same. But she believes she heard the gold/silver was removed before the attack.

Please, if you find anything about this inform me.

Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 13:00:59 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Your friend believes in conspiracy theories
Message:
That's all. And I wonder why YOU believe in this !

There are 1000s of tons of concrete on top of all this. I guess hundreds of such theories will fly before the ruins are cleared.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 14:51:16 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Who told you JM
Message:
I believe it?

I am simply asking, and so is she. As I explained she only heard the end of the news and I am curipous to know.

You didn't read my post properly. ())

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 18:11:05 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: I apologize
Message:
but only because you're a woman ......
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 23:00:10 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: ())
Message:
be happy that I injured my right arm and cannot type well....lol ())
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 10:54:19 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Anyone else having......
Message:
trouble sleeping these days?

Not wanting their kids go to school?

Not wanting to be out in public places?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 19:12:02 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: I went to da symphony
Message:
Barber's Adagio made me weep, da gorgeous Dvorak Romance for violin raised the spirits, there was dat Goin' Home section of da New World symphony, and Glazunov and Elgar elegies added a further poignance to dose beautiful musical invocations of dese assembled peaceful spirits.

salaam and lentils,

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 08:57:43 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: Anyone else having......
Message:
difficulty concentrating

depression / tearfulness

bursts of anger and fear

obsession with unfolding events

feeling powerless

horror bloodlust dismay fear

gutted

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:25:58 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: Anyone else having......
Message:
I commute by subway into Mahanattan every day. As we go over the Williamsburg bridge we see where the WTC used to be. After we cross the bridge we enter the tunnel into the city proper. That's the worst, when you feel most vulnerable, in the creepy, dark tunnels of Manhattan's subway system. It's not so bad now, but I remember the day immediately after, I was miserable, not so much scared, but just miserable. It just didn't seem real that the WTC wasn't there anymore, especially the way it was taken from us, by some fucking barbarians with nothing better to do with their lives but hijack a jumbo jet and fly it into a building (can you say fucked up?). And the day after it happenned the city was a ghost town, not just down at 'ground zero', but everywhere, uptown, downtown, nobody wanted to go to work and most people stayed home. You could cross the streets against the light without even looking, that's how empty the place was. But now, things are pretty much back to normal. We're all over the initial shock. The saddest thing these days is the posters of the missing hanging on buildings and streetlamps wherever you go. Very sad. But we're all living without our beloved World Trade Center. But it's still tough to take that it isn't there anymore. I don't know, maybe it's because I'm a native of New York, but it really does hurt that the Trade Center isn't there anymore. Does the rest of the country feel a personal loss, too, or do you have to be a New Yorker to feel that way about it? Anyway, I sleep fine. I just feel somewhat emotionally drained by this experience.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 10:59:37 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Thanks, Jerry - and some thoughts
Message:
Brian and I saw the WTC buildings collapse in 'real time' on TV. We still can't get over it - and are both having flashbacks to those images. It IS hard for me to get to sleep. And when we watch a movie or something on TV - even one that is supposed to be escapist - there are always things that remind of us of the attack. It IS like a loss, even though we aren't New Yorkers, but it is probably not as intense as yours.

I was very upset by the attack on the Pentagon - I think because my father worked there for so many years, because I know a lot of military people, and I DO identify with the Pentagon building (as weird as that sounds for a liberal Democrat to say). My whole family lives in DC, right near Dulles, and I kept picturing that plane crashing into their houses on takeoff. But of course the Pentagon is still mostly there, and people are back to work. The WTC is different.

Also, I am having fear of planes - we live in a small town in Virginia, but right near the airport, so the take-offs and landings are loud and scary. Not rational, I know - but there it is.

Lots of love to you,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Sep 20, 2001 at 04:51:48 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: New York, New York ..
Message:
it's a wonderful town.

Hi Jerry , yeah it must be weird for you New Yorkers, right there where it happened and with the aftermath of destruction there to remind you every day. Some have said it's like a few teeth missing from the skyscraper smile.

I also wonder what will happen to the space.....and its quite a large area aint it? .....will they build again? A memorial Park ? What ?

Cheers

PS just edited this after posting...I read your reply to Joe re memorial park etc. It'll be interesting to see what is chosen....there will HAVE to be some sort of memorial I guess.

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:59:46 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Anyone else having......
Message:
Jerry:

Didn't know you were a New Yorker. I don't think the rest of the country had quite the same connection to the building that you do. It was just a big building (or two big buildings actually) to most of us. I was just thinking about a flight simulation program that I used to use back in the days of the Commodore 64. One of the exercises was to fly between the towers of the WTC. I did it a number of times on the simulator, and crashed only once. But that simulated something like a Cessna 310, not a passenger jet. I fear that just such a simulator may have led someone to the idea.

What I feel mostly is grief over the loss of all those people, the loss to their families (whose haunted eyes we see on TV) and for the loss of the 'old world' where such things didn't happen. Now that they are no longer 'unthinkable' we've begun to crack the nut... to get at the unthinkable, and what makes it conceivable or possible... hopefully to make it as nearly impossible as we can.

I have to say that I don't relate that much to the Pentagon, or at least don't think I do. I plan to ride the recumbent down to the Mall some time soon--maybe this weekend--and I'll see if I feel something like what you must feel. But the major monuments are intact: the Lincoln Memorial, Washington Monument, Jefferson Memorial, Vietnam Memorial, the Smithsonians, the Capitol and the White House, etc. The Pentagon wasn't an obvious presence for me from the Mall, although it was pretty close to the Jefferson and the Inner Tidal Basin. It may get to me. Will have to wait and see.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:38:42 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Geez...
Message:
I didn't realize you were in New York. As weird as I feel about all this on the West Coast must pale to what it must be like to be there. I hope you are doing okay. Sorry if I was a little intense, I didn't realize you were so close to ground zero.

I heard Charles Schumer's comments that WTC needs to be rebuilt. Maybe not the same way, but I think everyone will feel violated until that happens. I think it will.

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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 20:49:17 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Joe
Message:
No hard feelings. I realize you're just expressing your opinion (always welcome) as I am mine. Some of us don't want the WTC to be rebuilt. I'd rather see a memorial park built in honor of those who perished, myself. You just can't replace the World Trade Center. It would be like replacing the Empire State building. That's how I feel about it now, anyway, but maybe if they do rebuild it, I'll be glad they did. We'll see.
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Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 12:06:55 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: Anyone else having......
Message:
yes, i never sleep, eat or do other things, but that was before. Now i just don't sleep, eat or do other things.
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