Carrier -:- 'The imposible dialogue' -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:11:50 (EDT)

salam -:- How it began. -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 21:01:25 (EDT)

__ Stonor -:- To Salam - totally OT -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:02:43 (EDT)

__ __ Stonor -:- PS: To Salam - still totally OT -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:30:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ Stonor -:- What's with the typo ... -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:44:13 (EDT)

btdt -:- This will sound crazy -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 17:21:54 (EDT)

__ Timmi -:- Re: This will sound crazy -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 21:50:19 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- link 4 da Koran [quran] -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:21:59 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- I tried to read the KOran once -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 17:17:59 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Anti-semitic and just plain dangerous -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:45:35 (EDT)

__ __ don con -:- Re: Anti-semitic and just plain dangerous -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:43:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ look up the meaning of -:- anti-Semitic (NT) -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:55:45 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Anti-semitic and just plain dangerous -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 23:31:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ don con -:- Re: Anti-semitic and just plain dangerous -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:45:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ Carl -:- Try the Tao Te Ching -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:36:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Tao Te Ching - -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:34:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- How about Chuang Tzu? -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:46:15 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- Muhammad's Wives: -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:30:53 (EDT)

__ __ such -:- Khadija -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 21:19:31 (EDT)

__ __ salam -:- so, are you jealous of him: -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:28:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Salam, the point is, it's there -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 19:10:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Re: Salam, the point is, it's there -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 20:53:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Religion IS the problem -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 23:42:13 (EDT)

btdt -:- natural remedies -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:22:35 (EDT)

__ Suedoula -:- Re: natural remedies -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:45:45 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Re: natural remedies -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:29:19 (EDT)

__ __ Mummiji -:- Now THAT'S uncalled for! -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:34:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ Stonor -:- Way ta go Mummiji!!! -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:09:14 (EDT)

Timmi -:- re: ask miragey this, from below -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:58:16 (EDT)

__ Passing Through -:- Jesus versus Kabir -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:37:29 (EDT)

__ __ Timmi -:- Re: Jesus versus Kabir -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 21:45:27 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- What a shell game! -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 19:41:56 (EDT)

__ __ PatD -:- Re: Jesus versus Kabir -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:58:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ Passing Through -:- Stating the obvious -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:08:34 (EDT)

Joe -:- Now that we need them, the US will pay -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:46:03 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Re: Now that we need them, the US will pay -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:35:01 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- Re: Now that we need them, the US will pay -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:41:37 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Rick... -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:08:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ Rick -:- Dermot -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 17:06:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: Dermot -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:39:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Approval Ratings -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 20:09:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- good points, hope you're right (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 20:23:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Donkeys and dialysis machines -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:33:54 (EDT)

David 2 -:- lost information -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 12:54:56 (EDT)

__ cq -:- Re: lost information -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:08:09 (EDT)

__ __ David 2 -:- Re: lost information. Thanks nt -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:53:46 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- A.J.W.? -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:04:40 (EDT)

AJW -:- Calling All Atheists. (ot) -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 10:10:14 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Dunno mate -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 21:51:18 (EDT)

__ __ Stonor -:- Hi Sir Dave and Anth ... -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:25:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Here's what I'm talkin' aboot -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 05:12:43 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Welcome, dear brother! -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 20:52:45 (EDT)

__ __ Tommy -:- ouch! [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 23:33:11 (EDT)

__ JohnT -:- There is no God ... -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:51:18 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- If there is a God ... -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:39:26 (EDT)

__ __ IT -:- I bow down to Thee, O JohnT -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:37:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ Leigh Hunt -:- Abou Ben Adhem -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 05:08:35 (EDT)

__ magiclara -:- Re: Calling All Atheists. (ot) -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:39:49 (EDT)

__ magiclara -:- Re: Calling All Atheists. (ot) -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:38:13 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Maybe I'm an atheist too. -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:47:00 (EDT)

__ cq -:- nice realisation there, Anth -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:02:35 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Re: Calling All Atheists. (ot) -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 12:51:18 (EDT)

__ __ Tim G -:- Re: Calling All Atheists. (ot) -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 15:33:13 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- Re: Calling All Atheists. (ot) -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:31:12 (EDT)

__ Jethro -:- To be perfectly direct, -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:09:56 (EDT)

__ __ Tim G -:- Beginners Mind, -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 15:36:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- To Tim G -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 15:41:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ berni -:- Anth,What's the alternative? -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:49:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Altrusim -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:49:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- ..and ethical humanism [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:53:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- God,beauty and selfish genes -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:17:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Rawat said ''Belief is relief'' -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:46:19 (EDT)

Mel Bourne -:- ' War Coalition Flip Flops'... Israeli commentary -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 07:39:03 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- Saudi Arabia -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:38:40 (EDT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Moment of hollow laughter... -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:35:25 (EDT)

__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Saudi Arabia -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:25:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Saudi Arabia -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 19:20:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- I agree Mel -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 19:15:21 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- I'l try again... -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 09:59:09 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 09:55:13 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave -:- How it really is -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 09:23:40 (EDT)

__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: How it really is -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 10:59:53 (EDT)

__ salam -:- crap -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 07:56:08 (EDT)

__ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: crap -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 09:48:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: crap -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 10:04:32 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- What Bjorn said re CAC on LG -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 04:54:05 (EDT)

__ Magnolia -:- Bjorn and Porn -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 15:12:40 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Great to see you again, Blossom -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:51:33 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- More from the sandbox (LG) -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:22:14 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- Re: More from the sandbox (LG) -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:33:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Gotta dance! -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:58:31 (EDT)

btdt -:- Trying to Understand Mohammed -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 04:25:14 (EDT)

btdt -:- Anyone remember.... -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 04:11:39 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- Maharaji isn't the brightest star -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:46:03 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Rawat's in India now -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 05:03:14 (EDT)

__ __ What, me worry? -:- I am an Indian Nationalist -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 07:36:53 (EDT)

Sir Dave -:- Another Pommie Report -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 22:20:31 (EDT)

__ Stonor -:- Isn't October 11th Remembrance Day? -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 02:27:58 (EDT)

Send your money here..... -:- TM reaction to terrorist attack -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 21:18:48 (EDT)

__ cq -:- Military/police recruits ordered to meditate -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 10:03:58 (EDT)

__ janet -:- disgusting deluded egotistical opportunists... -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 02:23:01 (EDT)

__ Yogi Bear -:- Re: TM reaction to terrorist attack -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 21:39:47 (EDT)

__ Timmi -:- Re: TM reaction to terrorist attack -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 21:35:55 (EDT)

bill -:- chemical/biological info -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 17:30:39 (EDT)

__ Bob -:- Re: chemical/biological info -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 08:21:19 (EDT)

__ janet -:- well the first two... -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 02:32:27 (EDT)

__ __ Bob -:- Re: well the first two... -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 08:25:04 (EDT)

__ bill -:- Some Aussies made this list of Quotes -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 17:36:48 (EDT)

__ __ bill -:- Rabbi makes the case for hate -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 17:47:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- What's new Rabbi... -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 18:25:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ PatD -:- Re: What's new Rabbi... -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 19:26:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- I take your point Bill -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 04:02:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ bill -:- Market report -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 17:55:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- whats bad for biz is salvation for mother nature. -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 02:53:30 (EDT)

Timmi -:- I just figured it out!!! -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 12:55:43 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Re: I just figured it out!!! -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 13:16:33 (EDT)

__ __ cq -:- Pams? I thought it was pukes? -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 16:00:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Great Rawat joke, cq! On the nose. [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 05:06:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ salam -:- Re: Pams? I thought it was pukes? -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 00:48:21 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- real threat of bio-chemical terrorism -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 12:19:46 (EDT)

__ btdt -:- Re: real threat of bio-chemical terrorism -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 14:06:02 (EDT)

__ __ janet -:- the national guard is the frontline -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 02:58:57 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- more stuff -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 14:20:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ such -:- hazardous material truck driving licenses -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 15:40:04 (EDT)

__ such -:- more: Re: real threat of bio-chemical terrorism -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 12:21:45 (EDT)

__ __ such -:- new rebel Afghan leaders;bin Laden's jihad fax -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 12:39:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ janet -:- Re: new rebel Afghan leaders;bin Laden's jihad fax -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 03:10:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ such -:- bin Laden's jihad fax -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 13:01:52 (EDT)

Jim -:- Bin Laden speaks out! -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:08:48 (EDT)

__ bill -:- that crap wont win him many converts [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 16:51:41 (EDT)

__ cq -:- Re: Bin Laden speaks out! -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 15:12:28 (EDT)

__ CNN -:- The article is misleading... -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:23:34 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- It's the Sun - what do you expect? -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 14:50:29 (EDT)

__ __ newshound -:- Re: The article is misleading... -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:56:03 (EDT)

__ __ newshound -:- Re: The article is misleading... -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:55:58 (EDT)

Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:11:50 (EDT) From: Carrier Email: None To: All Subject: 'The imposible dialogue' Message:

Posted: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 23:05:42 (EDT) Original: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:09:15 (EDT) Posted by: SC Recipient: Our Lord is REAL Email Address: Not Provided Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Mac_PowerPC) Message Count: 10 visits (7 today, 10 this week, 10 this month, 10 this year) Subject: We did answer Timmi Message: First, re the 'church' registration. There are only so many categories from which to choose. Rather than registering EV as a Political party or Combat Ready Commando Training Centre it was thought 'church' was the closest, being an organisation that propagates inner learning and operates from a non profit based agenda. The audit books testify to this status on an annual basis. The 'Saints cannot be bought with money' line has been thrown at M for years and years. He has consistently stated that he is NOT A SAINT But, of course, the deaf still continue not to hear him. This is the trouble with 'you lot' . It doesn't matter how many times something is said by M or by us, you ONLY HEAR what you want to hear. So it's an impossible dialogue. Now you are talking. The make believe 'god'

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 21:01:25 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: All Subject: How it began. Message:

These two links explain how the Russian entered into Afghanistan and how the Mujahideen movement started. And if you are wondering, no, I did not write the stuff. A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE WAR IN AFGHANISTAN First Uprisings

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:02:43 (EDT) From: Stonor Email: None To: salam Subject: To Salam - totally OT Message:

Your computer system might be running as smooth as a baby's bum, but I just replied to your email, and it came back telling me that the user's name cannot be found! :((((( Anna

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:30:36 (EDT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Stonor Subject: PS: To Salam - still totally OT Message:

Did I tell you how many times I have to say 'Good morning, America, how are you?' and 'Thank you, America' these days? I have a very nice young woman in my class from Mexico whose name is, believe it or not, 'America'!! About 10 years ago I had a student named John Kennedy Mariampillai from Sri Lanka, but this is much more bizarre! Imagine making love to 'America'!! :) And you thought fucking Europe (instead of just England and France) was a confrontational suggestion! (With my family tree, it's already been there, done that!) Oh, to be a Taliban lesbian at a time like this! ;) (I know, another VERY bad joke! May Whatever-It-Is forgive me, I couldn't resist! ;)

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:44:13 (EDT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Stonor Subject: What's with the typo ... Message:

in your return email address?!!! Damned Anna, up shit's creek, and swimming in it! ;) (you can thank me for figuring that one out myself, finally)

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 17:21:54 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: All Subject: This will sound crazy Message:

Hey everyone, I don't know what it is, but something good is going on somewhere. I can feel it. It gives me hope. I have been filled with the super espresso buzz for weeks before Sept.11 that I only usually get before earthquakes. And now it's, gone. Somebody, somewhere must be making something good happen. Cross your fingers everyone and say a prayer to whatever you want to.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 21:50:19 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: timmi56@yahoo.com To: btdt Subject: Re: This will sound crazy Message:

Doesn't sound crazy at all, btdt. Though I don't talk to people about it, I experience the same thing. Glad to hear what you are feeling at this time. Thank you for sharing this, and please keep me posted.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:21:59 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: banana@freeatlast.com To: All Subject: link 4 da Koran [quran] Message:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ [ http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/ ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 17:17:59 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: I tried to read the KOran once Message:

a few years ago, when a close muslim friend of mine, Omar (a French educated postgrad from Morrocco)and I had a long lasting discussion/arguments about the merits of Islam. It was just a little after Rushdies Fatwah.At the time of the Fatwah I was strolling through Victoria Park in Leicester and there was a big anti-Rushdie demo. I noticed tiny kids next to their parents/elders carrying banners with Rushdies face covered with a machine gun. I got into a bit of a heated argument protesting about them fucking their kids up. Suddenly I was surrounded by a bunch of irate, gesticulating muslims.....thankfully, over the microphone a mullah called all to prayer and I scarpered ....FAST. As for the Koran, I found it hard going. A mixture of fairy tale, moral stricture and general bullshit. Omar believed some weird things about demons , devils etc and literally believed in the Adam & Eve, garden of Eden stuff. I was baffled. Maybe I should give it another read.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:45:35 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Anti-semitic and just plain dangerous Message:

Thanks Such. Good thing the site's got an index. Here're some Koranic verses about jews: Thou wilt find the most vehement of mankind in hostility to those who believe (to be) the Jews and the idolaters. And thou wilt find the nearest of them in affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks, and because they are not proud. O you who have been given the Book[the jews]! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed. And best wishes for unbelievers too: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination. The Koran is filled with this stuff. And don't forget, as we know so well from our own cult, it only takes one, tiny, little whisper from the Master ....

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:43:14 (EDT) From: don con Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Anti-semitic and just plain dangerous Message:

the arabs are semites ,too, mister . i had to laugh on hearing that syria's new president made ANTI-SEMITIC statements...

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:55:45 (EDT) From: look up the meaning of Email: None To: don con Subject: anti-Semitic (NT) Message:

b

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 23:31:19 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Anti-semitic and just plain dangerous Message:

When I was 14 I had some Muslim friends. They seemed so sane and down to earth and I was becoming disenchanted with catholicism so I decided to become a Muslim. They gave me a copy of the Koran. I was an avid reader and finished it in a few days. I could not believe that my friends believed such rubbish. Actually they hardly ever read it but just kept it as a talisman. I tried to give it a second reading but found it had just as much primitive nonsense in it as catholicism but was heavier, more ferocious and more hateful. It really is an ugly, unrefined, uncivilized piece of work but so is much of the Old Testament which our christian bible-thumpers are so fond if.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:45:41 (EDT) From: don con Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Anti-semitic and just plain dangerous Message:

' it is an ugly, unrefined, uncivilized piece of work'.. you are really the most arrogant asshole i know, pat c. and forget all my previous wish you wells..may you rot in hell, allah-hu-akhbar

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:36:41 (EDT) From: Carl Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Try the Tao Te Ching Message:

if you haven't already. I discovered that work before K, over 30 years ago. It continued to inform, inspire and help counterbalance my worldview throughout the cult years, and it continues today to offer me plenty of ideas and views for reflection and 'savoring', so to speak. Old as it is, it is always new. A tiny work really, it is only eighty-one short verse-like 'chapters'. But how rich it is! Some verses are obscure, others quite poetic, but most all resonate deeply, at multiple levels of meaning. It is a potent concentration and expression of profound and universal wisdom, in my opinion. Would that I could comprehend the ancient Chinese language. So instead, I compare about a dozen translations into English, many by Chinese scholars, to try to discern or locate the original ideas, an interpretation by way of triangulation, as it were. Although in later centuries there may have developed a Taoist priest class and the usual human corruption of an original pure expression (some wonder if Lao Tzu was even a historical person), still, the basic document is refreshingly free of political axes to grind (only a little subtle between-the-lines tweaking of Confucianism perhaps) and certainly no oppressive hagiolatry nor violently polarized thinking. I could go on and on, but it's late. Just wanted to give a little plug for my favorite, my desert island choice. Hope your kitchen is cool and your heart warm, Carl

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:34:11 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Carl Subject: Tao Te Ching - Message:

I'm not fond of scriptures anymore. I read the Tao long before getting K and enjoyed it. And I also enjoyed the Upanishads. But I haven't looked at any of that stuff in years and haven't had the urge to. I'm just not attracted to anything spiritual anymore. I've returned to my old, materialistic roots. When I was living in a catholic monastery for two years us novices had to write an essay about what you most wanted in life. My essay was all about home comforts, beautiful music, good food and friendship. (Obviously I left out great sex because I was supposed to be celibate but that's what pushed me out eventually.) Father Superior told me that I was incorrigibly materialistic and that he doubted my vocation. I'm finished with spiritual stuff and, if anything, am zen - I've quit quitting and stopped striving. What I've got right now in this moment is enough for me.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:46:15 (EDT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Carl Subject: How about Chuang Tzu? Message:

Hi Carl, My kitchen is as warm as my heart, and filled with the smell of tomatoes drying in my oven for 'sun'-dried tomato pesto! A very 'rich' meal in the mid-winter of Montreal! Check your email. Anna

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:30:53 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Muhammad's Wives: Message:

Restatement of History of Islam The Wives of the Muhammad  the Apostle of God  --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- The first wife of Muhammad was Khadija. They were married in Makkah and they spent a quarter of a century of love and happiness together – until her death. While Khadija was alive, Muhammad did not marry any other woman. After the death of Khadija, Muhammad married many other women but no one among them could ever take the same place in his heart that she had. When she died, the bliss for him, of married life, also departed with her. To the end of his life, he reminisced about her, and remembered her with love, affection and gratitude. The first woman Muhammad married after the death of Khadija, was Sawdah bint Zama'a, a widow whose husband had died in Abyssinia. The third wife of the Apostle was Ayesha, the daughter of Abu Bakr. She is said to have been married in Makkah but she went to the house of her husband in Medina. The Apostle often tried to win the loyalty of a clan or tribe by marrying one of its women. His marriage with Umm Habiba the daughter of Abu Sufyan, and Safiya the daughter of Akhtab, were such marriages.  One of the wives of the Apostle was Hafsa the daughter of Umar bin al-Khattab. Her husband was killed in the battle of Badr, and her father was anxious to find a new husband for her. He offered her in marriage to his bosom friends, first to Uthman b. Affan, and then to Abu Bakr. But both of them regretted their inability to marry her. Umar was mortified at the rejection of his daughter even by his own friends, and he complained to the Apostle about it. The latter, to salve Umar's injured feelings, said that since no one else wanted his daughter, he would take her into his own harem. With the exception of Khadija, all other wives of the Apostle remained childless. The governor of Egypt had sent to him a Coptic slave-girl called Maria. She entered his harem, and bore him a son whom he called Ibrahim. The birth of a son invested Maria with extraordinary importance, to the great chagrin and heart-burning of her co-wives. The Apostle lavished immense love upon the little boy, and spent long hours with him, carrying him in his arms. But unfortunately, the boy didn't live long, and died in the year of his birth. D. S. Margoliouth His (Mohammed's) last years were brightened for a time by the birth of a son to his Coptic concubine (sic) Mary whom he acknowledged as his own, and whom he called after the mythical (sic) founder of his religion, Ibrahim. This concubine (sic) having been the object of extreme envy of his many childless wives, the auspicious event occasioned them the most painful heartburning; which indeed was speedily allayed by the death of the child (who lived only eleven months). (Mohammed and the Rise of Islam, London, 1931) Muhammad Husayn Haykal By giving birth to a child, the status of Maria was raised in the Prophet's esteem; he now looked upon her as a free wife, indeed, as one enjoying a most favored position. It was natural that this change would incite no little jealousy among his other wives who were barren. It was also natural that the Prophet's esteem and affection for the new born child and his mother increased that jealousy. Moreover, Muhammad had liberally rewarded Salma, the wife of Abu Rafi, for her role as midwife. He celebrated the birth by giving away a measure of grain to all the destitutes of Madinah. He assigned the newborn to the care of Umm Sayf, a wet nurse, who owned seven goats whose milk she was to put at the disposal of the newborn. Every day Muhammad visited the house of Maria in order to see his son's bright face and to reassure himself of the infant's continued health and growth. All this incited the strongest jealousy among the barren wives. The question was, how long would these wives be able to bear the constant torture. One day, with the pride characteristic of new fathers, the Prophet entered Ayesha's chamber with the child in his arms, to show him to her. He pointed out to her his great resemblance to his son. Ayesha looked at the baby and said that she saw no resemblance at all. When the Prophet said how the child was growing, Ayesha responded waspishly that any child given the amount of milk which he was getting would grow just as big and strong as he. In fact, the birth of Ibrahim brought so much pain to the wives of the Prophet that some of them would go beyond these and similar bitter answers. It reached a point that Revelation itself had to voice a special condemnation. Undoubtedly, the whole affair left its imprint on the life of the Prophet as well as on the history of Islam. (The Life of Muhammad, Cairo, 1935) On one occasion, Hafsa is reported to have 'surprised' her husband with Maria, and she disclosed this 'secret' to Ayesha. The other wives of Muhammad heard the story from Ayesha. There was much gossip and loose talk about this incident. Eventually, Al-Qur’an al-Majid had to intervene with a reprimand to the two ladies in the following verse: If ye two turn in repentance to Him (to God), your hearts are indeed so inclined; but if ye back up each other against Him, truly God is his protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe, – and furthermore, the Angels – will back him up. (Chapter 66; verse 4) Translator's Note 'The Prophet's household was not like other households. The Consorts of Purity were expected to hold a higher standard in behavior and reticence than ordinary women, as they had higher work to perform. But they were human beings after all, and were subject to the weaknesses of their sex, and they sometimes failed.' 'The imprudence of Aisha once caused serious difficulties: the holy Prophet's mind was sore distressed, and he renounced the society of his wives for sometime. Umar's daughter, Hafsa, was also sometimes apt to presume on her position, and when the two combined in secret counsel, and discussed matters and disclosed secrets to each other, they caused much sorrow to the holy Prophet.'  (A. Yusuf Ali) Many of the commentators and translators of Qur’an have translated the Arabic word saghat which occurs in verse 4 of Chapter 66, quoted above, as 'inclined.' Their translation reads as follows: Your hearts have become inclined. Inclined to what? 'Your hearts have become inclined,' is a meaningless translation in this context. The correct translation of the word saghat is 'deviated.' M. Abul Ala Maudoodi has given a correct translation of this verse which is as follows: 'If you both (women) repent to God, (it is better for you), for your hearts have swerved from the right path, and if you supported each other against the Prophet, you should know that God is his Protector, and after Him Gabriel and the righteous believers and the angels are his companions and helpers ...' (Tafheem-ul-Qur’an, Volume 6, Lahore, Pakistan, English translation by Muhammad Akbar Muradpuri and Abdul Aziz Kamal, second edition, May 1987). When Hafsa 'surprised' Muhammad in the company of Maria, he is supposed to have promised to her (to Hafsa) that he would not see the latter (Maria) again. This, of course, was disallowed. One wife had no right to restrict the freedom of her husband to see his other wives. Such an attempt on the part of one wife would be contrary not only to the laws of Islam but also to the customs of Arabia, both before and after Islam. Sir William Muir As in the case of Zeinab, Mohammed produced a message from Heaven which disallowed his promise of separation from Mary, chided Hafsa and Ayesha for their insubordination, and hinted at the possibility of all his wives being divorced for demeanor so disloyal towards himself. He then withdrew from their society, and for a whole month lived alone with Mary. Omar and Abu Bakr were greatly mortified at the desertion of their daughters for a menial concubine (sic) and grieved at the scandal of the whole proceeding. (The Life of Mohammed, London, 1877) From the foregoing it can be seen that the domestic life of the Prophet, after the death of Khadija, was not marked by any felicity. Many of his wives were jealous women, and the first 'casualty' of their jealousy was the tranquillity of his house.  D. S. Margoliouth The residence of the wives in the Prophet's harem was short, owing to unsuitability of temper; in one or more cases the newcomers were taught by the jealous wives of the Prophet formularies which, uttered by them in ignorance of the meaning, made the Prophet discharge them on the spot. One was discharged for declaring on the death of the infant Ibrahim that had his father been a prophet, he would not have died – a remarkable exercise of the reasoning power. (Mohammed and the Rise of Islam, London, 1931) It was a practice of the Apostle, occasionally, to leave his home at night and to visit the cemetery of Baqee to pray for the dead who were buried there. Just before his last illness, he visited the cemetery once again, perhaps for the last time, and stayed there praying for the dead until past midnight. Some historians say that it was on this occasion that he caught a chill, and it was the beginning of his fatal illness. Ayesha is said to have followed him on one of these visits.  D. S. Margoliouth At dead of night, it is said, the Prophet went out to the cemetery called Al-Baki, and asked forgiveness for the dead who were buried there. This indeed he had done before; Ayesha once followed him like a detective when he started out at night, supposing him to be bent on some amour; but his destination she found was the graveyard. (From the Musnad of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, volume iv, page 221). (Mohammed and the Rise of Islam, London, 1931) The women the Prophet married after the death of Khadija, were very different from her (from Khadija) in character and temperament. Khadija had given consistent and unstilted support to her husband in the promulgation of Islam, and she had sacrificed all her immense wealth for this purpose. Her sacrifices had reduced her to a state of great privation but she never complained to her husband about the lack of anything. Her marriage was rich in the blessings of the love and friendship of her husband, and in happiness unlimited.  Muhammad Mustafa himself lived a life of extreme austerity. Even when he was the sovereign of all Arabia, he was still as abstemious as he was in Makkah before his migration to Medina. Ayesha herself says that she had no recollection that her husband ever ate food to his heart's content twice in one day. When the spoils of war or the state revenues came, the Prophet distributed them among the Muslims. His wives noted that even the poorest women in Medina were thus growing rich but not they. It occurred to them that they ought not to be deprived of the largesse of their husband. After all, they were not accustomed to living such an austere life as he was. They discussed this matter among themselves, and they all agreed that they too ought to have a share in the good and lawful things – same as the other women of Medina. The wives of the Prophet, thereupon, presented their demands to him. They were unanimous in demanding a larger stipend from him. Two of them, viz., Ayesha and Hafsa, acted as their 'spokeswomen.' While they were pressing their demands upon him, Abu Bakr and Umar came to see him on some private or public business. The Prophet sat silent, surrounded by his wives. When Abu Bakr and Umar learned what was afoot, they were very angry, and they sharply reproved their daughters for demanding more money from their husband. Muhammad Husayn Haykal Abu Bakr rose to his daughter Aishah and pulled her hair and so did Umar to his daughter, Hafsah. Both Abu Bakr and Umar said to their daughters: 'Do you dare ask the Prophet of God what he cannot afford to give?' They answered: 'No, by God, we do not ask him any such thing.' (The Life of Muhammad, Cairo, 1935) Eventually the matter was resolved when a new verse was revealed in this regard, and which reads as follows: O Prophet! Say to thy consorts 'If it be that ye desire the life of this world, and its glitter, – then come! I will provide for your sustenance and set you free in a handsome manner. But if ye seek God and His Apostle,  and the home of the hereafter, verily God has prepared for the well-doers amongst you a great reward.' (Chapter 33; verses 28 and 29) Translator's Note 'The position of the wives of the Prophet was not like that of ordinary wives. They had special duties and responsibilities...all the consorts in their high position had to work and assist as mothers of the ummat. Theirs were not idle lives, like those of odalisques, either for their own pleasure or the pleasure of their husband. They are told here that they had no place in the sacred Household (of the Prophet) if they merely wished for ease and worldly glitter. If such were the case, they could be divorced and amply provided for. (A. Yusuf Ali). Al-Qur’an al-Majid offered the wives of the Prophet a choice, viz., either they had to choose God and His Messenger, and live lives of self-denial and sacrifice; or they could choose the luxuries, pleasures and glitter of this world in which case they would have to part company with their husband for ever. The offer was unequivocal, and the wives were free to choose. Ayesha, Hafsa and seven other ladies reconsidered the matter, and then decided to forego the comforts and pleasures of this world, and to stay in the household of the Prophet as his wives. When Mohammed Mustafa (may God bless him and his Ahlul Bait) died in 632, he had nine wives in his harem. Ayesha outlived him by half a century, and the wife who outlived all other wives of the Prophet, was Maymuna. She, incidentally, was the last woman he had married.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 21:19:31 (EDT) From: such Email: bananasrus@freeatlast.com To: suchabanana Subject: Khadija Message:

The Marriage of Muhammed Mustafa (S) and Khadija The commercial expedition of Muhammed to Syria turned out to be the prelude of his marriage with Khadija. The translator and commentator of Quran Majid, Yusuf Ali, poses the following rhetorical question in this context: 'Can we wonder at Jacob's re-union with Joseph, or that of Moses with Aaron, or of Muhammad Mustafa with the Lady Khadija?' No. We cannot. It was the decree of Allah that two of his slaves - Muhammed and Khadija - should be united in marriage, and they were. It is reported that one of the close friends of Khadija was a high-born lady of Makka called Nafisa (or Nufaysa) the daughter of Munyah. She was aware that Khadija had turned down many proposals of marriage. At first she wondered if there was any man in Arabia who would come up to the standards set by her. She had discussed the matter many times with Khadija. Finally, she had one more discussion with her which convinced her that she (Khadija) was not impressed by any man's wealth or rank or power. What really impressed Khadija, her friend gathered, was character - a sterling character. Khadija admired only a man of ethical and moral principles. Nafisa (or Nufaysa) also happened to know that there was such a man in Makka and his name was Muhammed. It is reported that one day Muhammed was returning home from the Kaaba when Nafisa stopped him, and the following exchange took place between them: Nafisa: O Muhammed, you are a young man and you are single. Men who are much younger than you, are already married; some even have children. Why don't you marry? Muhammed: I cannot afford to marry; I am not rich enough to marry. Nafisa: What would be your response if you could marry a woman of beauty, wealth, status and honor, notwithstanding your present poverty? Muhammed: Who could be such a woman? Nafisa: Such a woman is Khadija the daughter of Khuwayled. Muhammed: Khadija? How is it possible that Khadija would marry me? You know that many rich and powerful princes and chiefs of tribes proposed to her, and she rebuffed them all. Nafisa: If you are agreeable to marry her, you just say so, and leave the rest to me. I shall arrange everything. Muhammed wished to inform his uncle and guardian, Abu Talib, about Nafisa's demarche, and to consult him in the matter before giving her an answer. Abu Talib knew Khadija as well as he knew his own nephew. He welcomed Nafisa's suggestion. There was no doubt in his mind that Muhammed and Khadija would make the ideal couple. He, therefore, gave his blessings to the proposal of their marriage. Thereupon, Muhammed told Nafisa that her suggestion was acceptable to him and that she had the authority to negotiate, on his behalf, his marriage with Khadija. Once Abu Talib had approved the match, he sent his sister, Safiya, to see Khadija, and to talk with her about the proposed marriage. In the meantime, Nafisa had already done the 'groundwork,' and Khadija was expecting a visitor from the house of her future in-laws. She cordially received Safiya, entertained her, and told her that she (Khadija) had selected her (Safiya's) nephew to be her (Khadija's) life-partner without any preconditions and reservations. Safiya was very happy with the success of her embassy. Before she left the house, Khadija gave her an elegant robe which she accepted with many expressions of joy and gratitude. Abu Talib then decided to comply with the traditional formalities of marriage. He bought gifts for Khadija, and took his brothers, Abbas and Hamza, with him to her house to formally present to her the proposal of the marriage of his nephew with her. Khadija accepted the gifts that Abu Talib had brought, and of course she accepted the proposal of marriage. The two parties immediately fixed a date for the auspicious wedding. Abu Talib himself took charge of the preparations for the marriage of his beloved nephew. For the blessed occasion, he brought out all the heirlooms of the family and the sacred relics of his forefathers. These included the cloak and the staff of Abdul Muttalib, the late chief of Bani Hashim. The bridegroom put on the cloak and held the staff in his hand. Abu Talib put the black turban of his clan on his (the bridegroom's) head, and a ring of green agate on his finger. The ring, at one time, had belonged to Hashim bin Abd Manaf bin Qusayy. The wedding party was made up of all the chiefs of Quraysh and the lords of Makka. The bridegroom rode a proud and prancing horse, and the young warriors of Bani Hashim brandished gleaming swords high above their heads as they escorted him from the house of Abu Talib to the house of Khadija. The women of the clan had gone ahead of the bridegroom, and were already being entertained in the house of the bride. Khadija's house was illuminated by myriads of lamps. Inside the house, chandeliers hung on golden chains from the ceiling, and each chandelier held seven lamps. The guests arrived in the amber dusk. The chief steward of Khadija's estates had formed a committee for the reception of the bridegroom and the distinguished guests. The members of this committee conducted them inside the house through a high-arched entrance to a rectangular hall whose walls were panelled with tiles and whose ceiling was gilded. They made themselves comfortable on rugs and cushions. For this special occasion, Khadija had ordered a special outfit to be made for all her domestics - male and female. Men were handsomely arrayed in spangled turbans, scarlet tunics, and black sashes around their waists. Attached to their turbans were silk tassels of ivory hue. The girls were wearing decor-blending costumes which dripped with gold and spangles. They were wearing coronets on the head and ropes of pearls and rivers of crystals. Their hair, cascading from the head to the shoulders and from the shoulders down to the waist, was braided with pearls. The decor of the chamber of the bride was exquisite and was in fact, unsurpassable in taste and skill. The hangings of silk and brocade in many delicate tints, draped the walls; and a white velvet carpet covered the floor. The smoke of incense rose from a goblet of silver sparkling with diamonds, blue sapphires and balas rubies. Khadija, the bride, sat on a high dais placed under a richly embroidered canopy. She looked radiant and resplendent like the rising sun itself. On her head she was wearing a crown of gold and pearls of amazing orient and beauty. Her dress, in subtle shades of crimson and green, was shot with gold, and was set with pearls and emeralds. There were two maids in personal attendance on her; each was wearing a diadem of gold, an amethyst silken dress, and jewel-studded slippers. When all the guests had taken their seats, Abu Talib, the guardian of the bridegroom, rose to read the sermon of marriage as follows: All glory and all praise to Allah, the Creator of Heavens and earth, and all thanks to Him for all His blessings, bounties and mercy. He sent us into this world in the posterity of Ibrahim and Ismael. He put us in charge of the Mosque and made us guardians of His House, the Kaaba, which is a sanctuary for all His creatures. After this exordium, Abu Talib continued: My nephew, Muhammed ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul Muttalib, is the best individual in all mankind in his intelligence, in wisdom, in purity of lineage, in purity of his personal life, and in distinction of family. He has all the markings of a man destined to be great. He is marrying Khadija the daughter of Khuwayled against a meher of four hundred pieces of gold. I declare Muhammed and Khadija husband and wife. May Allah bless them both, and may He be their Protector. In his sermon, Abu Talib declared that the Bani Hashim were the heirs of Ibrahim and Ismael, and were the carriers of their heritage. They were, therefore, uncontaminated by idolatry. When Abu Talib concluded his sermon, Waraqa bin Naufal rose to read the marriage sermon on behalf of the bride. He said: All praise and glory to Allah. We testify and we affirm that the Bani Hashim are just as you have claimed. No one can deny their excellence. Because of their excellence, we cherish the marriage of Khadija and Muhammed. Their marriage unites our two houses, and their union is a source of great happiness to us. O Lords of Quraysh, I want you to be witnesses that I give Khadija in marriage to Muhammed ibn Abdullah against a meher of four hundred pieces of gold. May Allah make their marriage a happy one. (M. Shibli, the Indian historian, says in his Seera that the meher of Hadret Khadija was five hundred pieces of gold). Amr bin Asad, the aged uncle of Khadija, also spoke on the occasion, and he affirmed, in his own words, what Waraqa b. Naufal, had said. And it was he who, as guardian of the bride, gave her away to Muhammed ibn Abdullah. Abu Talib paid the meher for his nephew. Edward Gibbon At home and abroad, in peace and war, Abu Talib, the most respected of Mohammed's uncles, was the guide and guardian of his youth; in his 25th year he entered into the service of Khadija, rich and noble widow (sic) of Mecca, who soon rewarded his fidelity with the gift of her hand and fortune. The marriage contract, in the simple style of antiquity, recites the mutual love of Mohammed and Khadija; describes him as the most accomplished of the tribe of Koreish; and stipulates a dowry of twelve ounces of gold and twenty camels, which was supplied by the liberality of his uncle. (The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire) Washington Irving Khadija was filled with a lively faith in the superhuman merits of her youthful steward, Mohammed. At her nuptials, Haleema, who had nursed Mohammed in his infancy, was summoned and was presented with a flock of forty sheep. (The Life of Mohammed) All the guests congratulated Muhammed Mustafa on his wedding and expressed their best wishes for his happiness. They also congratulated his uncle, Abu Talib, on the auspicious occasion. Both thanked their guests cordially. When these ceremonies were over, the major-domo ordered the slaves to spread out the banquet. The banquet was a gustatorial extravaganza such as no one had ever seen in Makka. The guests feasted upon delicacies each of which was a masterpiece of the culinary art. They slaked their thirst with delectable drinks laced with lotus nectar. After the feast, each guest was invested with a robe of honor, in conformity with the ancient custom of the Arabian aristocracy. Presently, the major-domo announced that the bride was ready to depart. A richly-caparisoned she-camel, carrying a white pavilion on her back, was waiting at the gate of the house. All the guests gathered in the foyer to see the bride being escorted to the gate. Her maids assisted her in climbing into the bridal pavilion. ...EMBARK YE ON THE ARK, IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, WHETHER IT MOVE OR BE AT REST! FOR MY LORD IS, BE SURE, OFT-FORGIVING, MOST MERCIFUL.' (Quran Majid. Chapter 11; verse 41) One of the maidservants sat in the pavilion with the bride. Resting upon her head was a floral tiara, and her hair was threaded with blue ribbons and strands of lustrous pearls. She was wearing bracelets of agate, coral and rock crystal, and she held a jewelled fan in her hand. A team of Nubian slaves carrying flambeaus, marched in front and on the right and the left sides of the she-camel. The bridegroom also mounted his horse, and he, his uncles, the young men of Bani Hashim and their guests, returned to the house of Abu Talib in the same panoply as they had gone earlier that day to the house of the bride. When this torch-lit procession arrived at the house of Abu Talib, his wife and sisters assisted the bride in dismounting from the she-camel. A chamberlain held a parasol of white silk over her head, and conducted her into the inner apartments of the house. And say: 'O MY LORD! ENABLE ME TO DISEMBARK WITH THY BLESSING: FOR THOU ART THE BEST TO ENABLE (US) TO DISEMBARK' (Quran Majid. Chapter 23, verse 29) Everything went off with perfect precision. Coordination was superb from beginning to end. The marriage of Muhammed and Khadija had brought happiness to everyone but the happiness of Abu Talib knew no bounds. He had been very anxious that his nephew should have a good wife. This anxiety turned into pure and undiluted joy when his nephew and Khadija were married. There could not have been a better match. Abu Talib thanked Allah for the new happiness he had found, and his happiness was shared by his brothers, Abbas an~ Hamza, and all other members of the clan of Hashim. Three days after the marriage, Abu Talib made arrangements for a banquet to mark the occasion called since then 'the feast of walima.' He dazzled the whole city by his liberality. At the feast, every resident of Makka was his guest. Muhammed, the bridegroom, was himself welcoming the guests into the house. He himself, his uncles, his cousins and all the young men of Bani Hashim, were the proud hosts. The banquet lasted for three days. Years later, Islam made the feast of walima a 'memorial' to the banquet of Abu Talib at the marriage of Muhammed and Khadija, instituting it as a tradition of all Muslim marriages. Abu Talib was the first man to arrange it. Before the marriage of Muhammed and Khadija, the feast of walima was not known to anyone in Arabia. Abu Talib must have wished that his beloved brother, Abdullah and his wife, Amina, may Allah bless them, were also present to witness and to bless the marriage of their son, and to share his (Abu Talib's) happiness. But even if Abdullah and Amina had been present, the marriage of their son could not have been celebrated with more pomp and pageantry than it was with Abu Talib as his (Muhammed's) guardian. Next it was Khadija's turn to show generosity and hospitality. Generosity and hospitality were her old 'addictions.' And what occasion could be more appropriate or propitious for her than her own marriage to satisfy this propensity? She, therefore, ordered her major-domo to make arrangements for the most elaborate banquet in the history of Makka. It was a banquet that was truly memorable. Even the beggars of Makka and the wandering tribesmen and women were not excluded from the list of guests. They feasted on delicacies which they had never seen before. Those Arabs of the desert who had never tasted anything but brackish or rank water all their lives, drank rose water as the guests of Khadija. For many days the guests - rich and poor, high and low, lord and lackey, young and old - were fed in her house. To the poor guests, Khadija gave pieces of gold and silver and clothes, and she filled the houses of many widows and orphans with the necessities of life which they didn't have before. Khadija had spent many years of her life waiting for the ideal man to come. Her long wait was at last rewarded when Muhammed came along, and they were united in holy wedlock. The marriage of Muhammed and Khadija was the first and the last of its kind in the world. It was the only marriage in the whole world which abounded in heavenly blessings as well as material blessings. It was a marriage which was immeasurably and incalculably rich in the blessings of both the heaven and the earth. It is entirely probable that in Arabia, no woman ever brought so much dowry with her into the house of her husband as Khadija did. It included slaves, slave girls, real estate, pasture lands, herds of camels and horses, flocks of goats and sheep, and her personal outfit of rich and rare fabrics, accessories, priceless heirlooms, ornaments, precious metals, precious stones and masses of gold and silver coins. This dowry, unprecedented as it was for its quality and its quantity, was not a gift to Khadija - the bride - from her uncles or from her brothers. It was the product of her own efforts. She had produced it by her own diligence, industry, prudence, and foresight. But these were not the only riches that Khadija brought with her. She also brought the riches of heart and mind, and these were immeasurable and inexhaustible. In the years to come she immeasurably enriched the life of her husband with these gifts. Once Khadija was married, she appears to have lost interest in her mercantile ventures and in her commercial empire. Marriage changed the character of her dedication and commitment. She had found Muhammed Mustafa, the greatest of all treasures in the world. Once she found him, gold, silver and diamonds lost their value for her. Muhammed Mustafa, the future Messenger of Allah and the future Prophet of Islam, became the one object of all her affection, attention and devotion. Of course, she never lost her genius for organization, but now instead of applying it to her business, she applied it to the service of her husband. She reorganized her whole life around the personality of Muhammed Mustafa. (Khadija could not wind up her wide-ranging commercial operations abruptly. She had to phase them out. By degrees, therefore, she phased out the export-and-import business which her father had founded.) In the years following his marriage, Muhammed travelled again with Khadija's caravans to Syria. M. Shibli, the Indian historian, says that he also went to Yemen. Wherever he went, he made profits. Khadija also recruited other managers who sold her merchandize or bought merchandise for her, and they too made profits for her. But the emphasis had shifted; instead of expanding her business as she had done in the years before her marriage, Khadija began, gradually, to curtail her commitments until all her merchandize was sold, and she had recovered all her investments. When the Princess of Makka entered the house of her husband, Muhammed Mustafa, the most successful and the happiest phase of life began for her. This phase lasted 25 years - until her death. She immediately adapted her life to the new environment. From the very first day, she took charge of her new duty which was to make the life of her husband happy and pleasant. In carrying out this duty, she was eminently successful, as the history of later times has eloquently borne witness. Marriage opened a new chapter for both Muhammed and Khadija in their life. The keynote of this 'chapter' was happiness - the purest kind of happiness. Blessed with happiness as their marriage was, it was also blessed with children. Their first-born was a boy called Qasim. It was after the birth of the infant Qasim that his father, Muhammed Mustafa, was called Abul-Qasim - the father of Qasim - as per the custom of the Arabs. The second child was also a boy. His name was Abdullah. He bore the nicknames of Tahir and Tayyeb. Both Qasim and Abdullah died in their infancy. The third and the last and the only surviving child of Muhammed Mustafa and Khadija was their daughter, Fatima Zahra. Though the gifts which Allah had bestowed upon them, were many, there was none that they treasured more than their daughter. She was the 'light of the eyes' of her father, and she was the 'comfort of his heart.' She was also the future 'Lady of Heaven.' The father and mother showered their love upon her, and she brought hope and happiness and the blessings and the mercy of Allah with her into their home.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:28:16 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: so, are you jealous of him: Message:

He is said to have had 40, the poor sod. Am sure he couldn't work them all out. But the story goes that the Arab tribes showed their alliance to him by marrying one of their daughters to him. It's only political, you know like the USA deferring Pakistan debt. It's all relative. As for the Qu'oran being anti-Semetic, well, I suggest to JIM to read some history to find out why this verse is in the Qu'oran.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 19:10:09 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: salam Subject: Salam, the point is, it's there Message:

Salam, Who cares what gripes, justified or not, Mohammed had against the jews? The point is, these anti-semitic verses are attributed to God himself. I wonder, how can one be a good muslim and not hate jews? Seems like it takes a lot of squinting, fudging and 'nudge-nudge-wink-wink'ing to get from this so-called 'holy book' to a religion of peace.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 20:53:20 (EDT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Salam, the point is, it's there Message:

Yeah yeah, ok. This is more of a family affair between Muslims and Jews, really and nobody is invited. It's not a political issue. you haven't discovered anything new. And no, even true Muslims have dealing with Jews and visa-versa. The world is playing stupid in the hand of some morrons that just can’t stay away from each other’s throat. But that is not the cause of the problem. The cause is in 1945 a bunch of displaced people wanted a place to call home. They very conveniently decided to throw the current owners and take their place. To justify their action, they came up with the most ridiculous explanation that’s what the problem is. Ask yourself, will the Americans give back their country to the Indians? Dream on. In fact, if you follow mid-east politics, you will see that Arab governments don't give a fuck about the Palestinians. Jordan and Lebanon had them in concentration camps, which the reason why the civil war in Lebanon started. The Jordanian entered the camps with their tanks and slaughtered them. No, the Palestine Syndrome is a carrot that Arab leaders dangle in front of their people whenever there is a political turmoil in their country [exactly what the bush administration is doing]. Palestine is not what I want to die for. Even 20 years ago I was saying this proposing a peace with Israel. But try telling that to the 'brainwashed'. On the other hand, the Palestinians know this, have learned it through hard yakka, and they use it effectively. Each time Israel does something they cry 'The Holly Mosque is Under Attack' and you have everyone on rushing in and another six months on unrest begins. Innocent people are dying for nothing. To tell you the truth, I just don't understand why this is going on. But my theory is simple. Imagine that you have a fight with your neighbor and that for the next 4000 years that's all what your descendents do, fight with the neighbor, I think eventually it becomes part of your genes. Fighting between your family and the neighbor is instinctive. Yeah I know a stupid theory, but this is the only explanation I can find.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 23:42:13 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Salam Subject: Religion IS the problem Message:

No sensible person is expecting the Israelis to give up the land they have developed with their hard work but we are hoping that Israel will one day become a secular state that includes all races in it's government and society. I saw how criticism of apartheid by the west hardened the Afrikaners and drove them into even more stubbornness and repression. I know Israel is not South Africa but it's has similar problems. The racial division is more complicated than SA because of religion. God spare us from all religions.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:22:35 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: All Subject: natural remedies Message:

After yesterday's news interviews concerning the shortage of anthrax vaccines, etc. I started looking for alternative means to have on hand. Thought maybe it might be useful info to share. [ remedies ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:45:45 (EDT) From: Suedoula Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: natural remedies Message:

Thanks for this -- last night when I listened to stories on NPR about chemical warfare I was almost as scared about the thought of mass vaccinations. Best, Susan

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:29:19 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: natural remedies Message:

grow up.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:34:11 (EDT) From: Mummiji Email: None To: salam Subject: Now THAT'S uncalled for! Message:

You grumpy middle-aged man! You KNOW how much your friend Stonor has been helped by homeopathy! No hugsijis for you for a long time!!!! Your long suffering Mummiji. (humongous sigh!!!)

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:09:14 (EDT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Mummiji Subject: Way ta go Mummiji!!! Message:

You're right! I bookmarked that link! A woman's work is never done! Sleep well, Mummiji! ;) Love, Anna . (who, me?!!! Talk to myself?!!! NEVER!!!!)

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:58:16 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: All Subject: re: ask miragey this, from below Message:

'''Also, you know that Saints cannot be bought with money; They do not expect and They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting any worldly riches from his disciple, he is not a perfect Saint - because the Masters always earn Their own livelihood. They do not accept anything from Their disciples. If anyone is accepting, he is not a true Sadhu.' -- Kabir''' I would love to ask and receive a response. A response will not be gotten, I am willing to bet. I am still waiting for a response to my question why Elan Vital is registered as a church, but have only received a deafening silence. There is no answer to give when it is patently obvious that the real answer is 'Maharaji is a liar.' They don't want to say that, so they ignore the question. I suppose they think that by ignoring it, they are putting themselves above such a demeaning remark. Well. I'm not the person who keeps insisting he is not a religion, nor am I the one who registered all this same person's doings as a church. I am the one who wants an answer to this glaring contradiction. Likewise, there can be no answer to the Kabir quote from rawat. Rawat is in it for the money, power, control. Pretty much the same reasons other control freaks do what they do. If Elan Vital would like a list of the types of criminal activities others with these personality traits engage in, one can be suppiled. Not a savory thing, but the truth, nevertheless. Oh, sorry. I forgot. The truth is up for grabs when it comes to dealing with rawat. One will get no truth from him or his followers. Disgusting.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:37:29 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Jesus versus Kabir Message:

Pulling out a quote of Kabir is just as fatuous as pulling out a quote of Jesus. You symbolize true cult thinking. Ignore the main body of work and just select a quote that suits your purpose. Kabir says 'follow the master', do you agree? John 12: 1-8 Then Mary took a pound of very costly oil of spikenard, anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped His feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil. 4. Then one of His disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, who would betray Him, said, 5. 'Why was this fragrant oil not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?' 6. This he said, not that he cared for the poor, but because he was a thief, and had the money box; and he used to take what was put in it. 7. But Jesus said, 'Let her alone; she has kept this for the day of My burial. 8. For the poor you have with you always, but Me you do not have always.'

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 21:45:27 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Jesus versus Kabir Message:

I got the quote directly from archives of rawat. I didn't pull it out of nowhere to suit my purpose. It is not me who twists and pulls things to suit a purpose. If rawat is a 'master' of anything, it is twisting things for motives.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 19:41:56 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: What a shell game! Message:

That's a very stupid post, PT. Lots of reasons.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:58:37 (EDT) From: PatD Email: None To: Passing Through Subject: Re: Jesus versus Kabir Message:

please make your position clear . You're saying that PPS Rawat is Jesus Christ 2000 yrs on , no ?

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 00:08:34 (EDT) From: Passing Through Email: None To: PatD Subject: Stating the obvious Message:

No, I'm not saying PPS Rawat is Jesus. I'm saying that Timmi's attempt to take one quote of Kabir and ignore the rest is typical cult thinking. As is suggesting that comparing a Kabir quote to a Jesus quote somehow relates to Maharaji. PT

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:46:03 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: All Subject: Now that we need them, the US will pay Message:

Interesting, isn't it? The likes of Jesse Helms and even Bush, have resisted the US paying its dues to the UN and we have owed hundreds of millions for years. We run the UN, dominate it acutally, but we don't want to pay our fair share of the dues. It's been a source of continuing embarrassment for many Americans, at least those who even know. Anyhow, I heard that the Congress, today, is voting to pay the dues, hundreds of millions of dollars, because, guess what, the US actually feels like its vulnerable and needs other nations. My, how things have changed.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:35:01 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Now that we need them, the US will pay Message:

They could have another concert to pay for it. What do recon?

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:41:37 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Now that we need them, the US will pay Message:

Not surprising. That will go down as one of the pluses resulting from this war. On the downside: reduced civil liberties, a second term for Bush and re-election for other Republicans, a dumbing down of political discourse and conversation, an inhibition of comedy in entertainment (political comedy in particular), and a field-day for bigots against Arab-Americans.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:08:24 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Rick Subject: Rick... Message:

Now if I were a 'conspiracy theorist' like Gerry .... nah, it couldn't be ... :)

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 17:06:25 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Dermot Message:

Yeah, Bush couldn't have hoped for a better day; a president too stupid to tie his own shoes with the highest recorded approval rating in history. And one place he's going wrong is offering a monetary reward for Bin Laden's capture. These terrorists are flying planes into buildings, thinking they're going to get 72 virgin brides. There isn't a dime store for a hundred miles where these guys are from; so what do we offer them? Money. I have a friend who's girlfriend thinks Bin Laden is attractive. She thinks he has juicy lips and soulful eyes. My friend can't believe his woman has a crush on a terrorist. He's taken to calling her 'Mama Bin Laden'.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:39:53 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Rick Subject: Re: Dermot Message:

Well the fellow is not ugly if you look at it from her point of view, plus all photos of him [which is published by the western media by the way] show him with the light projecting from on side, giving him a special aura.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 20:09:02 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: salam Subject: Approval Ratings Message:

Rick, I don't think those approval ratings mean very much. How many people, in the time of crisis, are going to say they DON'T support the president? Hell, even I wouldn't say that, even though I wish it was somebody else. In fact, if my saying I support him well help him, I'd do it. Also, the polls show that people support Bush's CABINET more than they support HIM. They don't really think he's running things, and he isn't. And in regard to war, you have to look at how they are asking the question. I mean, if they are asking: Would you prefer to: 1. Do nothing, and let the people who blew up the WTC get away with it, or 2. Go to war. Really, that isn't very far off from what these polls are asking. What I thought it was really interesting that one poll asked if the US should go to war and something like 75% said yes, but when asked WHO to go to war against, 67% said 'don't know.' So, I think those polls are kind of meaningless. Also, keep in mind that Bush Sr. had an approval rating of 90% after the Gulf War and 6 months later his approval rating was 35% and a year later he lost re-election and got only 37% of the vote. So, I wouldn't be so sure about what will happen with Bush.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 20:23:43 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Joe Subject: good points, hope you're right (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:33:54 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Rick Subject: Re: Donkeys and dialysis machines Message:

She probably wouldn't find his dialysis machine attractive though. Hint to the crack forces in Afghanistan...look for a donkey trecking the Hindu Kush mountain ranges carrying a dialysis machine with a man and a horse nearby! Mel

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 12:54:56 (EDT) From: David 2 Email: None To: All Subject: lost information Message:

First of all I need to say, thank you to everyone for keeping this site going. I visit here frequently and post infrequently. Over the years I have been able to gain the information that is allowing me to understand the scene behind the scene of K, M, and the whole cult. I am writing now because there is a journey I once read and I am now unable to find. There is a possibility it may not have been written as a journey. The person who wrote the journey or post was a teacher of M?s children. I found his account very poignant, because it was clear, he became slowly disillusioned with M over a period of time. He started off being thrilled about the service he was performing, but as time went by it became clear to him that M was a fraud. Does anyone know where I can find this information?

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:08:09 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: David 2 Subject: Re: lost information Message:

that would be Anth's (AJW) - the first one on the list of journeys (typical, ain't it?) Click here for link: http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/journs/j_ajw.htm best, Chris

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:53:46 (EDT) From: David 2 Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: lost information. Thanks nt Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:04:40 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: David 2 Subject: A.J.W.? Message:

Our very own Anth? His Journey is first in alphabetical order. I think that's who you mean.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 10:10:14 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: All Subject: Calling All Atheists. (ot) Message:

Hi, At some point during my time in the cult, I started to feel uncomfortable about my beliefs that Captain Rawat was the superior power in person, and 'knowledge' was a direct experience of the spiritual form of God. It all turned out to be bullshit. Anyway, I was left, still believing in God. However, recently I've started to get similar feeling about 'God' to those I did about the Captain. Somethings not quite right about it. I was looking at the ocean this morning. The sun was shining through the clouds making the sea look like islands of snow, separated by dancing diamonds. I thought, 'If there was no God, this view would be just as beautiful.' So Jim, Nigel, and any other of you godless bastards out there, whaddya think? Doubting Anth

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 21:51:18 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: AJW Subject: Dunno mate Message:

Reading your post and Jim's comment below brings something to mind. You see I don't think it makes a lot of difference to one's personal life whether one believes there's a God or not. In my day to day life, God or no God doesn't affect me one iota. I see such people as Jim and Nigel as a religious atheists. I guess atheism could be a religion. What I'm trying to say is that the more a subject is dwelled on and mulled over, the more importance it appears to have. Before I ''came to knowledge'' my world was cycle racing before a brief spell as a hippie before receiving knowledge. In my sporty world, Eddy Mercx was God and I got a buzz from seeing him at cycle races. I had lesser gods who were guys in my cycling club or national cycling heroes and I became a junior god myself in the Midlands. Back in those days, I loved to ride the bike through the countryside, relishing in the effort and the scenery. Sometimes in the summer, I'd get up at 4am and ride out to a lake and eat my breakfast there, soaking in the beauty of nature. I never gave God a thought. Last Saturday I drove out to Sheerness in Kent with my kids and we all witnessed the most spectacular ''special effects'' as we looked out to sea. The atmospheric and sunlight conditions had turned the sea and the sky a glowing white and you couldn't see where the sea ended and the sky began. It looked like something out of a dream. Better than a dream though, it was reality and pretty fantastic! We don't need to add any God ideas to that. So I'm agnostic and leave it there. I understand the historical reasons why God has been invented and I also understand the reasons but forward that God might not be just an invention. But I prefer to get off the atheist/believer idea. That said, I do believe in Fairies and if you go to Iceland, you'll see they have special laws for the Elves and Trolls there.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:25:15 (EDT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Hi Sir Dave and Anth ... Message:

What're ya talkin' about?!! My 'concept' of 'God' has never been the same as others', it seems, which is one of the first things I learned here in ex-premie land. To me THAT has always been 'God' or 'Whatever-It-Is' to me, along with many other things in life, like having the opportunity to offer someone a very small, but timely, hand, and vice versa! Call 'It' whatever you like, 'It's' always there, even if we aren't! Isn't 'It' wonderful? Love, even as I'm feeling flippant, Anna (Have you read Evens-Wentz's The Fairy Faith in Celtic Countries (1911)? And do you know who the legendary A.E. is? I figured it out once, I think, but then I got distracted, and forgot the dots I'd connected.)

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 05:12:43 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Here's what I'm talkin' aboot Message:

Stonor; People like doing a kindness to others but it's not because of God - it's because they're naturally that way inclined. Why bring a third party into it? Have you ever considered the idea that if there was a God, He/She/It wouldn't want us attributing everything to it or giving it credit all the time? Why would God need such a thing? Also, continuing in that vein, if creatures evolve into pretty good life forms like ourselves, it doesn't mean that there isn't a God, either, despite the fact that He didn't ''make'' us. The idea that creatures can evolve and become self determined with their own moral codes and principles would mean that they would be independant from a so called God. Surely a God would prefer that to happen rather than have a load of docile sheep. I've never read that book about fairies and I don't know who AE is. The only fairies I know are the ones who I talk to, now and then.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 20:52:45 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: Welcome, dear brother! Message:

Welcome to loneliness .....

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 23:33:11 (EDT) From: Tommy Email: None To: Jim Subject: ouch! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:51:18 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: AJW Subject: There is no God ... Message:

... and JohnT is his prophet. I've long thought that to bother about whether one believes in God is a bit beside the point. I mean, supposing that there is such a thing, surely what is important is whether IT believes in me, not whether I believe in IT? No, I don't quite understand what that sentiment means either, but I like it anyway.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:39:26 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: JohnT Subject: If there is a God ... Message:

.....let him stay in heaven and stop interfering. When God's in his heaven all's well on earth. It's only when he starts channeling through human beings that it all gets fucked up.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:37:15 (EDT) From: IT Email: None To: JohnT Subject: I bow down to Thee, O JohnT Message:

And kick thy ignorant ass, as I believe Thee to be one. Kapische? How do you 'like' that sentiment?

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 05:08:35 (EDT) From: Leigh Hunt Email: None To: IT Subject: Abou Ben Adhem Message:

Abou Ben Adhem (may his tribe increase!) Awoke one night from a deep dream of peace, And saw, within the moonlight of his room, Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom, An angel writing in a book of gold:- Exceeding peace had made Ben Adhem bold, And to the presence in the room he said, 'What writest thou?' - The vision raised its head, And with a look made of all sweet accord, Answered 'The names of those who love the Lord.' 'And is mine one?' said Abou. 'Nay, not so,' Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low, But cheerly still; and said 'I pray thee then, Write me as one that loves his fellow-men.' The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night It came again with a great wakening light, And showed the names who love of God had blessed, And lo! Ben Adhem's name led all the rest. posted by JohnT

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:39:49 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Calling All Atheists. (ot) Message:

You can put my mane down for the atheists club. Ignore post below it went wrong. Magiclara

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:38:13 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Calling All Atheists. (ot) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:47:00 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: AJW Subject: Maybe I'm an atheist too. Message:

I tend to call myself agnostic because I still have some unanswered questions. But I don't really need answers especially primitive unprovable answers and am quite content not to understand the sweet mystery of life. These paragraphs from Matthew Parris' essay, ''Belief in Paradise is a Recipe for Hell on Earth'' (which I posted in a thread below) sum it up quite satisfactorily for me: If I have seemed to claim an absence of faith, then I take that back. I am a great believer in the here and now. I do believe in this world, in this humanity, its present and its future, and in results sought and found here on earth. And that it is we who must judge. I believe that the here and now is good, and worth working to improve; that human suffering is bad, and worth seeking to mitigate; and that life and peace, beauty and plenty, are to be sought as ends in themselves, for ourselves and for those who succeed us. I believe this world and its future matters, matters completely, matters more than anything. I believe this world is real. I know of no other. And I believe in the judgment of the here and now; that we and our fellow-men, in this life and for the sake of this life, can judge our contributions, applying our own standards, derivable from nobody and nothing but ourselves, rewardable or punishable by nobody and nothing but ourselves, rewardable or punishable nowhere but here. The reality in which I believe is not, however, solipsistic; it includes others, including future others. There is nothing necessarily selfish in a belief in the primacy of this life; any more than there is anything necessarily unselfish in the pursuit of Paradise in an after-life.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 13:02:35 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: AJW Subject: nice realisation there, Anth Message:

'If there was no God, this view would be just as beautiful' Some more deep thoughts for the day: Religions are like farts. Yours is good, but everyone else's stinks I was walking across a bridge one day, and i saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said stop! don't do it! Why shouldn't I? he said. I said, Well, there's so much to live for! He said, Like what? I said, Well...are you religious or atheist? He said, Religious. I said, Me too! Are you christian or buddhist? He said, Christian. I said, Me too! Are you catholic or protestant? He said, Protestant. I said, Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist? He said, Baptist! I said, Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord? He said, Baptist church of god! I said, Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god? He said, Reformed baptist church of god! I said, Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915? He said, Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915! I said, Die, heretic scum, and pushed him off. [Emo Phillips] Belief means not wanting to know what is true. [Nietzche, The Anti-Christ, 1889] It is an interesting and demonstrable fact, that all children are atheists and were religion not inculcated into their minds, they would remain so. [Ernestine Rose] It is fear that first brought gods into the world. [Petronius Arbiter, Satyricon] There was no difference between the behavior of a god and the operations of pure chance... [Thomas Pynchon, _Gravity's Rainbow_] Why doesn't God behave in such a way as to be worthy of worship? [Barry O'Grady, bary@it.com.au] Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. [Bertrand Russell] If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to. [Dorothy Parker] It is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no reason whatsoever for supposing it to be true. [Bertrand Russell] Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction [Pascal, Pensees (1670)] To make sure that my blasphemy is thoroughly expressed, I hereby state my opinion that the notion of a god is a basic superstition, that there is no evidence for the existence of any god(s), that devils, demons, angels and saints are myths, that there is no life after death, heaven nor hell, that the Pope is a dangerous, bigoted, medieval dinosaur, and that the Holy Ghost is a comic-book character worthy of laughter and derision. I accuse the Christian god of murder by allowing the Holocaust to take place -- not to mention the ethnic cleansing presently being performed by Christians in our world -- and I condemn and vilify this mythical deity for encouraging racial prejudice and commanding the degradation of women. [James Randi, challenging blasphemy laws in several US states] The universe may have a purpose, but nothing we know suggests that, if so, this purpose has any similarity to ours. [Bertrand Russell]

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 12:51:18 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Calling All Atheists. (ot) Message:

Anth Can you say that you've really been trying to bring that peace and truth in to your life? Shri Maharaj ji is revealing the Knowledge That will take us from the darkness to the light. God is love and love is God God is truth and truth is peace and we could do with some today God is love and love is God God is truth and truth is peace and our Lord can show us the way. ................ Jesus Anth, you are a slow learner.... have you not yet grasped the simple truth that not a single leaf moves without Guru Maharaj Jis GRACE ???????? Not a sunbeam shining through the clouds making the sea look like islands of snow, seperated by dancing diamonds occurs without Guru Maharaj Jis GRACE Jai Sat Chit Anand Your brother in His Love Dermot PS ....I love my Lord for He gives me the morning , I love my Lord for He gives me the day ....la la la la ...... Ah !!!! Those were the days my friend , we thought they'd never end , we'd sing and dance forever and a day....la la la la la la

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 15:33:13 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: Calling All Atheists. (ot) Message:

La La is right Dermot!

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:31:12 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Calling All Atheists. (ot) Message:

Anth, I guess I consider myself an atheist, but I just prefer to say I'm a secular person. I really resent labeling myself based on whether or not I believe in an imaginary friend. I just find the subject of whether or not there is a god is so irrelevent to actually living, and actually having respect for life, which is something very important to me. Life is a really rich experience and I find that whole discussion so irrelevent to it. Actually, it's distracting. But I guess I came through the same kind of evolution you did. I left the cult, realizing what a fraud Maharaji was, but I didn't deal with the 'god' issue. However, when you have been deceived to that extent, it's very hard not to be skeptical of all religious mumbo jumbo -- certainly anything organized. I watched the PBS program last night on evolution. I thought the information was very good, but I thought the way they mixed a period drama, with really bad acting, with modern analysis of what Darwin actually did really detracted. Anyhow, one thing it discussed was how people have such a hard time thinking that something as complex and intricate as the human eye wasn't created as a completed entity. But it was just evolution, random selection, over a very long period of time. I guess it's the same with sunsets. Joe, who refuses to call himself an atheist, but is one.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:09:56 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: AJW Subject: To be perfectly direct, Message:

The ocean, stars, clouds have their own beauty just as a bird has it's own song which is why it sings. Why be burdened with a belief in 'God' that noone can define anyway. Love to Dot Jethro

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 15:36:50 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Jethro Subject: Beginners Mind, Message:

Beginners mind doesn't know about enlightenment; Beginners mind doesn't know about truth; Beginners mind doesn't know about Americans, Palestinians, Jews, Hindus; Beginners mind doesn't know about evil; Beginners mind doesn't know what is right; Beginners mind doesn't know the answer; Beginners mind doesn't know there is a leader to follow; Beginners mind doesn't know that he/she should be like someone else; Beginners mind doesn't know about birth and death; Beginners mind doesn't know how serious it is; Beginners mind doesn't know the problem let alone the solution; Beginners mind doesn't know about duality and non-duality; Beginners mind doesn't know there is something to practise; Beginners mind doesn't know how to behave; Beginners mind doesn't know there is an enemy; Beginners mind doesn't know there is something to fear; Beginners mind doesn't know there is a lack of love; Beginners mind doesn't know there is something to get or lose; Beginners mind doesn't know about the past; Beginners mind doesn't know about controlling everything; Beginners mind doesn't know there's something wrong; Beginners mind doesn't know Begin again. Tim (with thanks to Gary Merrill)

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 15:41:35 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Tim G Subject: To Tim G Message:

Thanks for that

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:49:36 (EDT) From: berni Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Anth,What's the alternative? Message:

Hi Anth, I know I don't contribute to the forum very often, although I read it religiously ( or maybe that's the wrong word ). I used to be a regular contributor, a few years ago, but ran out of things to say and decided to stop boring everyone with my repetitious ramblings. I wish I could say that I am too busy earning the necessary moulah to support family and mortgage, but it is more a case of worrying about how I can find the means to earn said moulah... Anyhow, being an atheist is no solution to getting rich. Nevertheless, I think I am one. Not that I wouldn't rather be someone who believed that if I am a good boy then the Big Giant Head will look upon me with favour and protect me from pain etc. whilst constantly dropping hints to me about the best path to take through life leading to eternal bliss. But I am not sure that it's all just as beautiful or meaningful without having the 'faith'. I know that one day mankind ( not unkind man) may discover the truth about how we came about, how to make the best of this life and what's the meaning of it all, but it won't be in my lifetime. I can only expect mystery and confusion, not to mention the possibility of WW3. Oh for those heady days of dancing with the Lord of the Universe - except he wasn't and we were all just being metaphorical or something - according to the premies of today's Elan Vital. I guess the point is that, despite not being able to believe in superstition anymore, I don't like the Darwinist/Dawkins 'survival of the fittest' much at all. If you can't perpetrate an act of random kindness once in a while without thinking that you have been programmed to do it then what's the point in being alive? I still thing there is something special about the human race that puts us just a notch above the animals ( not everyone of course, there are some people that act like animals) - not that I have anything against animals - I certainly wouldn't eat one. Did you see the benefit concert for the families and survivors of the WTC tragedy? ( I loved Neil Young and Stevie Wonder). There was an account of two people who, whilst running down the stairway for their lives, saw someone in a wheelchair and who, despite their own fear, carried this stranger down 56 floors to safety. Now that can't have been prompted by the selfish gene? Anyhow cheers Berni

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:49:40 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: berni Subject: Altrusim Message:

Hi Berni, re. your paragraph: Did you see the benefit concert for the families and survivors of the WTC tragedy? ( I loved Neil Young and Stevie Wonder). There was an account of two people who, whilst running down the stairway for their lives, saw someone in a wheelchair and who, despite their own fear, carried this stranger down 56 floors to safety. Now that can't have been prompted by the selfish gene? That's a popular misreading of selfish gene theory. Nowhere does Dawkins talk about 'selfish genes' meaning genes for selfishness. In fact if you read the book in its most recent imprint he has added a chapter 'Good guys finish first' which covers the question of altruism. 'The fittest' needent mean the most selfish - there are all sorts of evolutionary reasons why - from your genes' point of view - we might be programmed for helping others, sometimes at our own cost. And no less beautiful when it happens, of course.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:53:07 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Nigel Subject: ..and ethical humanism [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:17:08 (EDT) From: Peg Email: None To: berni Subject: God,beauty and selfish genes Message:

Hi anth and everyone I've just been 'out' of the cult for a few months and one of the high spots so far has been reading a bit of Richard Dawkins and realising that I too can be an atheist. I practically wanted to dance a jig after all this time of believing and having faith. The freedom! The release of guilt! The excitement of trying to work it out for myself. of listening to my own feelings...reason...and questioning others- however convincing or convinced they sound. and exactly that sunset... its beautiful whatever and thanks cq I've saved that list and Berni..give the guy a chance..have you read his stuff? To me he seems very human. I don't think any theory of how we originate can deny things that happen and some wonderful loving things do happen... beautiful whatever. Peg of

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:46:19 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Peg Subject: Rawat said ''Belief is relief'' Message:

At the end of the 90s that was a common phrase of his Holeyness. It sounded really primitive to me. Now I know why. Not believing is relief. Nice post, Peg.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 07:39:03 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: All Subject: ' War Coalition Flip Flops'... Israeli commentary Message:

Hi An assessment by Israeli commentators (debka) regarding the state of the US coalition and the relative lack of Arab support America’s War Coalition Flip Flops 24 September: DEBKAfile’s experts offer a short guide to the maneuvers surrounding America’s attempts to build an international bloc of supporters for its war against terrorism. First-line backers: Britain, Canada, Australia, Germany, France, Russia, Turkey and Pakistan. Mel – seems I may have been wrong in my comments yesterday about France and Germany being reluctant to be involved at this level. Indeed, Debka advises that there are crack German soldiers in North Afghanistan as well as the British SAS that we’ve heard about Second-line Support (nations rendering military, intelligence, logistic and medical aid and rear bases to the first-line members): Israel, Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan, India. Where Are the Arab Nations? As the hours slip by, the Arab nations are increasing the distance between themselves and President Bush’s war on terrorism, for a variety of reasons: Saudi Arabia: Saudi Arabia’s denial of support is the bitterest setback Washington suffered since deciding on its military operation, forcing the Bush administration to put its planned assault on Baghdad on hold. Suddenly, the Americans had to cast about for new forward bases in place of the new combined air operations command center at Prince Sultan Air Base near Riyadh, which was to have been the central command post for directing air attacks from bases around the region in the Gulf and Southwest Asian regions. The Saudis feared an US offensive against Iraq, launched from a base on their soil, would expose their cities to strikes by Iraqi missiles bearing chemical, biological and even possibly nuclear warheads. As the Gulf linchpin, the Saudis forced Arab Emirates, such as Kuwait, Bahrain and Oman who were willing to join forces with the United States, to follow their lead and back out of the US-led alliance. America is to be allowed to maintain military forces in their territory and carry on staff functions – but not to launch attacks. Egypt: President Hosni Mubarak has from the first objected to the war coalition being led by the United States and demanded it be placed under the aegis of the United Nations. This was a pretext. Mubarak’s rationale for staying out of the war alliance is simple: He knows that at some point in the campaign, Egypt, like other Arab nations, will be handed a list of domestic radical Islamic terrorist groups – led by the Egyptian Jihad Islami, Osama Bin Laden’s senior partner – to which will be attached an American demand to terminate their operations. This Mubarak cannot afford to do, because any such move would unite all of Egypt’s teeming Islamic militant groups and sects in active opposition to his regime. Syria: Syria has the same problem as Egypt. The United States has already handed President Bashar Assad an ultimatum to be met if Syria wants to be removed from the list of states sponsoring terrorism. Before anything else, he must sever his economic and military ties with Saddam Hussein’s Iraq - which is deemed a terrorist state – and with the Lebanese Shiite Hizballah. In the second stage, Syria will be asked to extradite to the United States Hizballah leaders and operations chiefs, as well as activists of the Palestinian radical and Islamic groups - the Fronts, the Hamas and the Jihad Islami - while outlawing those groups. Feeling his back was to the wall, Assad hurried over to Egypt and Saudi Arabia over the weekend to demand their support for defying Washington’s demands. Palestinians: Yasser Arafat understands he is cornered. He knows perfectly well that the groups he activates in his campaign against Israel – the Palestinian Authority’s “Preventive Security” services, his own Fatah-Tanzim, Force 17, the Jihad Islami and the Hamas, qualify as terrorist organizations by US standards and therefore targets to be crushed. Arafat hoped that with the help of Israeli foreign minister Shimon Peres, he could sanitize his terrorist groups without halting their war against Israel; once Washington accepted the Palestinian Authority as a partner in its coalition, those groups would be safe. The Saudi withdrawal upset Arafat’s applecart. Now, he dare not line up with Washington in the opposite camp to the Saudi-Egyptian-Syrian grouping. His tactics for survival entail a low-key terror campaign against Israeli targets that is careful to fall short of provoking a strong US or Israeli response, while leaving him squarely within the inter-Arab consensus. Iran: The dual problem with the rulers of Tehran is their active sponsorship of one of the most powerful, effective and zealous terrorist groups in the Middle East, the Hizballah, plus the fact that Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, personally runs what the Iranians call intelligence agencies, but which the Americans regard as terrorist groups, pure and simple. One of Khamenei’s key “intelligence” aides is also one of America’s deadliest enemies, the notorious Hizballah hostage-taker of Lebanon in the eighties, Imad Mughniyeh. For the moment, it suits American diplomacy and the goals of secretary of state Colin Powell to put a good face on the process of co-opting Arab partners and Iran to the anti-terrorist coalition. After all, no one wants to burn America’s bridges to the Arab world and the Persian Gulf. A useful device for preserving this facade is to lean on Israel to meet the Palestinians halfway. This is no more than a charade, because the Bush administration has little time to spare for this local conflict when it is deep in the first skirmishes of a world war. Indeed, Washington was quick to replace the Arabs and the Gulf Emirs with Russia and the former Soviet republics of Central Asia, marginalizing the Middle East and its complexities. This region will recover its importance when the Americans recover from the Saudi blow and decide to turn back to dealing with Baghdad. The decision by President Bush on this may be no more than a week, ten days off, but in making it, he will be influenced – not by what happens between Israelis and Palestinians, but by the progress of the combat in Afghanistan Mel

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:38:40 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Saudi Arabia Message:

In a major victory for the US, the Saudis today cut off all relations with the Talliban and condemned them as hurting Islam. The Saudis are in a difficult position, but they are more dependent on the US than they are on other Arab states. Syria will likely become part of the coalition, just like they did in the Gulf War, however it will be interesting to see what concessions they get from the US, like pressuring Israel to give up the Golan, which Syria wants back. I doubt Egypt will be able to be too supportive of the US because of it's own internal politics, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Egyptian government will be very supportive behind the scenes. It will be interesting to watch Iran.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:35:25 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Joe Subject: Moment of hollow laughter... Message:

No sooner had the one-party (one-family, in fact) Saudis come on board than Bush started referring to the alliance as being one of 'freedom loving countries'... Hmm, cutting links with the Taliban whilst severing the heads of adulterers. It seems 'good' has been redefined to meet the needs of the present crisis. At least the good guys now have all the oil, which I suppose counts for something.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 18:25:17 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Saudi Arabia Message:

Joe I think that the media announcements about Saudi diplomatic relations with the Taliban paper over the fact that the Saudis will not grant attack facilities to the US, and is face saving PR for both the Saudis and the US. To describe it as a 'major victory' falls far short of what a major victory for the US would really be (full access to Saudi facilities to be able to launch attacks anywhere in the Middle East). Mel

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 19:20:05 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Re: Saudi Arabia Message:

No, it's a major victory. Condeming another Islamic state is just as dangerous for the Saudis as offering bases. The Saudis, the UAE and Pakistan were the only states with relations with the Afghan government. Now, they are even more isolated. Doubt there will be many air attacks on Afghanistan, but there will be some. With Pakistan and India offering bases, as well as the former Soviet republics, those in Saudi Arabia aren't necessary anyway, as they are farther away.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 19:15:21 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: I agree Mel Message:

Reports suggest that the Saudis are now seriously concerned about INTERNAL dissent and have had to put that before their EXTERNAL guarantor ie the USA. I was listening to one report that pointed out that even the rich arab states, including SA, have a high proportion of fundamentalist believers and they would be appalled if once again the SA Govt allowed access to the base etc. SA is so secretive and so tightly controlled but everything points to the regime being really worried about its own survival. All the recent bombings there (where they've conveniently got westerners to 'confess' their guilt on TV) are most likely the handiwork of Saudi dissident (perhaps some princes even).It's assumed they threatened (perhaps even tortured) the westerners to confess to be being part of a alcohol smuggling business. SA, is also the original home of a 200 year old hardline sect of Islam and it still thrives, with a large following, in the country. I can't remember the name of the sect , it was mentioned the other day on the radio.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 09:59:09 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: I'l try again... Message:

The irony. On C4 it reported that the sophisticated air base in Saudi the allies were hoping to use was originally constructed by a consortium led by the Bin Laden family business group while the bunkers etc that the Taliban and BL will use were mainly put together by the CIA.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 09:55:13 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Message:

It mentioned on C4 news last night that the sophisticated Air base the allies hoped to use in Saudi Arabia was originally constructed by the Bin Laden family while the bunkers and hiding bolts the Taliban (and probably BL ) will use were mainly created by the CIA.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 09:23:40 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Mel Bourne Subject: How it really is Message:

The coalition doesn't expect Muslim states to let us attack from their countries, rather the coalition is asking those states not to intervene in the localised war. Britian's Foreign Secretary is talking to the Iranian Forein minister as we speak. Iran is an enemy of the Taliban and does not object to our invading Afghanistan to destroy the Taliban and bin Ladan's organisation there. Iran has offered to give their intellegence to the coalition. Iran is not the American hater that it once was. Such polarizations are diminishing as Iran and other countries see that bin Laden, the Taliban and their Muslim terrorists are an organisation based on the medieval concept of the ''crusades'' the West once had against Muslim nations. Such medieval wars belong in the past. I think if any country is subjected to biological terrorism and the slow, lingering illness and death that thousands of people will suffer because of that; I think such terrorism will hit home even harder that we're dealing with an inhuman enemy that has no respect for their fellow human beings. This enemy will kill thousands in that way (with biological and chemical weapons) if they can and the only defence against it is attack. You cannot reason with people who find joy in the mass slaughter and suffering of ordinary people.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 10:59:53 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: How it really is Message:

Hi Dave I agree with your view. Indeed, today’s Jerusalem Post reported that Sharon cancels Straw meeting after terror remark... 'One of the factors that helps breed terror is the anger that many people in the region feel at events over the years in the Palestinian territories,' Straw told an Iranian paper.' The meeting was then reconvened (Jerusalem Post) after Blair interceded. This chopping and changing shows that the Israelis are obviously miffed about the “Coalition ”need to curry favour with the Palestinians and Arab states as a more important to addressing current Israeli domestic problems. I concede that there is a possible bias in Debka reporting which could be trying to amplify Arab Islamic unity and ignores the obvious dislike that some Arab states have toward the Taliban at the US expense. But it’s quite interesting getting the Israeli perspective, because they do a least illustrate that the Coalition creation process is a little more complex than CNN mainstream US media would have us all believe. Mel

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 07:56:08 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: crap Message:

What about israil? why don't they tell us how is Israil planning to help in combating terrorisim world wide when the Irsrali cann't keep there backyard safe?

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 09:48:41 (EDT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: salam Subject: Re: crap Message:

Salam I think the US is trying to publicly sideline the Israelis as much as possible in the current situation for two main reasons: 1. To openly invite Israel to participate in the military coalition would undermine the US efforts to recruit the Arab nations to it’s anti terrorist campaign for obvious reasons. 2. Israel could be considered too difficult to control because of it’s intense “survivalist” policies. As you’ll probably remember, during the Gulf war, the US was barely able to control the Israeli responses to the Scud attacks by Saddam. The main fear at that time was the Israel would mount a nuclear attack on Iraq and I don’t think that the US fears about Israeli have changed this time round. I believe that the US is picking the brains of the Israeli intelligence services and that the this as an invaluable (and safer) Israeli contribution to the “cause”. Also, I think that the US intelligence services would be looking at emulating the Israeli success in infiltrating fundamentalist groups and implementing the secret “dirty”war that Bush has mentioned. It undoubtably has a lot to learn from Israel in this area. Mel

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 10:04:32 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Re: crap Message:

Exactly right Mel, in every respect.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 04:54:05 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: All Subject: What Bjorn said re CAC on LG Message:

Bjorn said: ''Some of your fellow mates have been lying about me, harrissing me, kicked my ass in any possible way, they have libelled me, they have made defation statements about me, they have sent me virus emails and they have been totally assholes. And some of them are according to the Cac even done more criminal acts and immoral things like making money on bestial porn, child porn etc, (I have seen some of this myself)'' And my answer to him: Bjorn, please be careful. Could you please supply evidence that you have seen any bestial or child porn done by any expremies or even CAC victims? My friend who has the same name as me, but who is not a premie or ex, was mistakenly accused on CAC. He would be very interested in this as he did take this up with his lawyer as his business was named and he was lumped in with real sex offenders and slandered as we all were. Could you please post the urls of the bestialty and child porn sites. Of course, if you have no proof, then you also are guilty of lying and slander and I am sure my friend's lawyer would like to discuss this with you. I will forward your name to him. It may be better to email me those urls as children may see them posted here. I also find it interesting that you actually know about bestial and child porn sites as I thought they were illegal. It must have taken a lot of work on your part to find them but I guess that, where there's a will, there's a way. I will be sending this post to my friend's lawyer. I would also be very grateful for any other info about Bjorn such as real name, ISP # etc if you would email it to me. Thanks.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 15:12:40 (EDT) From: Magnolia Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Bjorn and Porn Message:

hi pat- just checked in after a little internet sabbatical... hey, i got the same virus e-mails and teen porn notices as bjorn! also, i get debt consolidation offers, several gambling websites, how to make a million bucks on the internet in four easy steps, and lots of herbal viagra offers! was all of this from you and the other bad ex-premies? naughty, naughty, mistress magnolia's gotta administer punishment... wait, maybe that's all just common e-garbage, and only a paranoid premie would believe that you folks have nothing better to do than spam him, when you're not busy running a business, loving your dogs and family, and generally having a life. never mind... no spanking tonight! magnolia

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:51:33 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Magnolia Subject: Great to see you again, Blossom Message:

I was just thinking about you the other day and wondering if I ever answered you last email. I had a hectic summer trying to work 14 hour days and keep an eye on the forum. I get all that stuff too but no one sends me bestial or child porn like they do to Bjorn. I guess you really do get what you want. ;)

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:22:14 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: More from the sandbox (LG) Message:

Bjorn responded to my request for proof of expremies' bestial and child porn thus: I witnessed following: On the drek site, there were filthy bestial porn stuff, as well as links to teenage porn. I sent an email to an ex, and then I recived for some time every day teenage porn and child porn links to my email. Later I received a virus in an email, which duplicated all my messages in my outlook express, and it resulted that every adress in my files, recieved about a 100 emails from me. When this happened, there was no way around than to delete all the contents and files in my outlook express - all together 1600 receipients. The cac site, I have not studied, but just scanned through but I do not support such activities. Bottom line I have still a strong belief, due to M, that deep within every human being, there is the most beutiful being. But some people have a lot of strange layers. And SC/David Roupell's two cents' Cyberstalker Alert Take a look at why Patrick Conlon became notorious for all the wrong reasons and should be treated with extreme wariness by some of the more gullible present here. Below is the man in action 25/9/01, attempting threats and intimidation in his masterpost 'bjorn please be careful'. Folks, this is slimeball use of the internet to harrass others. . . . at it's worst. Worst because it is not simply a threat but the planting of a subtle seed of fear which Mr Conlon will dutifully water in the hope of seeing it grow and consume its victim. Ladies and gentlemen.... '...if you have no proof, then you also are guilty of lying and slander and I am sure my friend's lawyer would like to discuss this with you. I will forward your name to him.' 'He would be very interested in this as he did take this up with his lawyer.' Mr Conlon is the one who should be more careful. He sounds like a man who's just taken one step over a cliff, turning around to the person behind him saying... 'Be careful when you get close to the edge.' Life is Great. But not for some obviously. PatC, wondering if Maharajism causes mental retardation or if one already has to be dumb to fall for it. PS We all had the excuse that we were ignorant youths when we first fell for Maharajism. Does continued involvement in Maharajism then trap one in eternal infantilism?

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 14:33:58 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: More from the sandbox (LG) Message:

'Eternal infantilism'- you sure got that one right! I attended that video event two weeks ago and it blew me over how infantile the instructor was and most of the audience. It's almost a requirement, maybe due to M constantly saying pwk's 'must have the heart of a child.' Yet, he is surrounded by bullies. EV is stuffed with bullies. He, from the pam accounts, exhibits bullying behavior. Frankly, it's been one of the hardest things to shake, this realization that the time I spent with k is in direct proportion to feeling stifled in maturity. It's constantly surprising me because the goal for all those years was to lose the maturity of this world and be a child in M's. Near the end, I honestly felt like I was going backwards and my own teens had passed me up. But this was supposed to be a good thing!

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 03:58:31 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: btdt Subject: Gotta dance! Message:

Gotta sing! Well, we're out of it. Just think of it has having conserved your brains and now they are fresh and new and ready to rock. Hey, I'm an incurable optimist. Did your church-ladies also use that squeaky little girl passive-agressive manipulative voice? And did the bully boys talk down to you with their soft and isistent monotones? Yuk. It's weird little religion.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 04:25:14 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: All Subject: Trying to Understand Mohammed Message:

I really know very little about the prophet Mohammed. This seems like an easy to understand intro and by all accounts, he had great logic. [ Prophet Mohammed ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 04:11:39 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: All Subject: Anyone remember.... Message:

M scathing speech about the Faulklin (sp)islands war.....what does England want to do, tow them back? And then, I can't remember if it was in this same talk, that what if god, perfect master, lord, or some such, wanted everyone out of South America, that he had power that would make atom bombs look like match sticks. Where is he now anyway? Pwk's have been asking and getting no answer. Off to a safer place than the USA with his family and draft age boys? I'd sell my soul if he had the power he said he had and was who he said he was and could make this whole stinking thing stop.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 11:46:03 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: btdt Subject: Maharaji isn't the brightest star Message:

I don't recall that statement at the time of the Falklands War, but I remember him saying one time that the allies in WWII shouldn't have stopped at Berlin and should have declared war on the USSR in 1945 and finished them off. It was an incredibly ignorant statement, but that's the kind of crap Maharaji sometimes said. He also said oil came from dinasaurs (he said this repeatedly at programs), and then there is the stuff about seeds being 'dead' and sucking animals being meat eaters. He has had number of stupid ideas. I remember right after I left the cult, I went to Miami to visit my friend Nancy. It turns out there was an 'intro' program in Miami, so I went. At that program, Maharaji went on and on about how political work, including the anti-nuclear movement, was a complete waste of time. He actually was snide and sarcastic to a woman who asked a question about that. Even the people I was with, who were still premies at the time, thought he was offensive. I don't think Maharaji has ever undertood the first thing about how the world works, beyond his toys, I mean, or how ordinary people live. Part of ther reason he is so crass is his arrogant attitude that could only come by being surrounded with sychophants his entire life.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 05:03:14 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: btdt Subject: Rawat's in India now Message:

He has been spending October in India for the past five years or more in preparation for Hans Jayanti in early November which was just announced by EV email. Hans Jayanti is his biggest show in India as the premies there still revere Hans.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 07:36:53 (EDT) From: What, me worry? Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: I am an Indian Nationalist Message:

Let me know when the fighting is over and it is safe to come back and use my U.S. Passport.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 22:20:31 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: All Subject: Another Pommie Report Message:

Refugees are leaving Kabul at a rate of 100,000 per day. They are not fleeing because of the likelyhood of American bombs, they are fleeing the Taliban who are now pressganging all males below old age into conscription. Witnesses say that the Taliban are entering houses in the dead of night and carrying away men, bound and gagged in many cases, if they resist the army conscription order. The Taliban have also, today, closed down the United Nations food aid centre in Kabul which means that thousands of city dwellers and farmers will now starve. They were totally dependant on the UN food aid. I've linked the full translation of bin Laden's fax above in case anyone hasn't read it. I don't know how much of this Pommie Report is news or not but there you are - info gleaned from the BBC World Service radio and other channels. [ That translation in full ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 02:27:58 (EDT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Isn't October 11th Remembrance Day? Message:

Remembrance Day? And have you seen Norm McLaren's 'Neighbours' (1957)? Don't know if I dare show it to my class this year. It usually freaks them out (for lack of a better expression). Greed sucks. To you, Zachariah, Mahmoud, Sabah, Alima, Ashraf, Ecky, Reza, Janan, Said, Fouzia, Moumar, Lina, Feride, Ali, Yachar, Biga, Samir, Nawal, Toufik, Nourredine, Ibrahim, Mohammed, Fatima, and all the faces I cannot put a name to right now, and all your families. And thank you Sir Dave, Anna

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 21:18:48 (EDT) From: Send your money here..... Email: None To: All Subject: TM reaction to terrorist attack Message:

The Endowment Fund for World Peace -- http://worldpeaceendowment.org -- a project of Transcendental Meditation (TM) promoters, has published a full-page ad in The New York Times and elsewhere urging people to contribute to its effort to bring about world peace through group meditation activities. The ad urges 'the world's wealthiest' to create a $1 billion endowment fund to 'permanently engage 40,000 young men from the traditional Vedic Families in India . . . in the programs of enlivening the unifying, nourishing power of Nature's Intelligence, in order to create and maintain coherence in world consciousness and eliminate the basis of all negativities.' TM advocates claim that 'Maharishi Technology of the Unified Field, including Yogic Flying' enables 'as few as the square root of one per cent of the population of the society . . . to create an immediate change towards harmony and positivity in the whole society. . . . analogous to the phase transitions towards coherent collective functioning in physical systems described earlier in the example of the laser.' http://Maharishi.invincibledefence.org/ad_proposal_world_peace/Proposal_World_Peace_1.html

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 10:03:58 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: Send your money here..... Subject: Military/police recruits ordered to meditate Message:

From last Saturday's 'Guardian' Meditation is path to peace, Mozambique leader says Former Marxist guerrilla turned president spreads the word of the Beatles' guru to his ministers and the military James Astill in Maputo Guardian Saturday September 22, 2001 President Joaquim Alberto Chissano of Mozambique is one of Africa's more enlightened leaders. Twice a day, he tries to attain pure consciousness through transcendental meditation (TM). The president discovered TM, the teaching of the Beatles' guru, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, in 1992, shortly before the end of Mozambique's 16-year guerrilla war. It was no coincidence. 'First I started the practice of transcendental meditation myself, then introduced the practice to my close family, my cabinet of ministers, my government officers and my military,' Mr Chissano, a former Marxist bush-fighter, is on record as saying in literature published by Maharishi devotees. 'The result has been political peace and balance in nature in my country.' Said to originate in India's ancient Vedic tradition, TM is based on the theory that stress is the cause of all evil. Yogic flyers, its most advanced practitioners, decrease environmental stress by tapping into pure, or universal, consciousness; thus righting the balance in natural law. Essentially, this involves moving in a series of supposedly gravity-defying, cross-legged bounds while meditating. Best results are seen when approximately 8,000 yogic flyers gather in one place. This produces 'the Maharishi effect', described as an 'upsurge in harmony and social coherence enveloping the Earth'. Disciples claim that when such 'coherence-building groups' have met in the past - often in California where the Maharishi was for a long time based - conflicts in Africa and the Middle East died down measurably. Meditate Maharishi's theory of invincible defence is related to this. Once a 'prevention wing' of yogic flyers is formed within an army, Maharishi says, 'military power is brought in alliance with the invincible power of natural law, which spontaneously provides safety and security to the government of the universe and eternally defends the sovereign domain of every galaxy and solar system'. The attractions of this to Mr Chissano and his generals seemed clear. From the end of 1994, all military and police recruits were ordered to meditate for 20 minutes, twice a day. More than 16,000 soldiers were taught yogic flying and TM, according to Mozambique's defence minister. So were 30,000 Mozambicans, according to the Maharishi movement. In October, 1994, the deputy defence minister of the day, Antonio Hama Thay, wrote to the national military school ordering that, 'transcendental meditation must be an integral part of the curriculum of the cadets in the school, as a requirement for them to become officers'. According to the current defence minister, Tobias Dai, the effect was overwhelming. Crime levels dropped; a drought was averted and economic growth, predicted at 6%, soared to 19%. Yet in the past two months, for what the Maharishi Centre in Maputo describes as 'administrative reasons', TM has been withdrawn from public life. The new deputy defence minister, Henrique Banze, confirms that TM is no longer compulsory in the army, although the practice continues in some units. 'My personal opinion is that transcendental meditation and yogic flying did not end the war,' he said. 'But then I never tried it.' Mr Chissano told the Guardian this week: 'For me it is very relaxing and very simple - I just keep quiet and chant the mantras. The results have been scientifically proven. Many of my ministers find it enhances their capacity to work.' The trade minister, Carlos Morgado, is not one of them. 'I'm afraid I'm too greedy for all that,' he said. But the visible effect of TM on the 62-year-old Roman Catholic president was striking, Mr Morgado admitted. 'He emerges from each session looking like a strongman, charged up for another 10 hours' work.' Jacob Hermansen, a Norwegian instructor at the Maharishi Centre, claims to have put down an insurrection in Mozambique's Cabo Delgado province last year by leading 200 army officers in yogic flying. He predicts more countries will follow Mozambique's example. Mr Hermansen maintained that Mr Chissano was a highly skilled yogic flyer - though the president has never said as much himself - and had shown the way.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 02:23:01 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: Send your money here..... Subject: disgusting deluded egotistical opportunists... Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 21:39:47 (EDT) From: Yogi Bear Email: None To: Send your money here..... Subject: Re: TM reaction to terrorist attack Message:

Now that's what I call using the tragedy to make money. You have to figure that if they can get at least 10% of the idiots out there to send in something, they can probably make enough to pay for the ad and cover costs with a little left over to buy a Mercedes 600 with a cocktail bar, fridge, TV and intercom system. Like the one the little Guru Maharaji once bought. Remember that? And when asked why didn't he distrubute his money to the poor, he replied something like-He had something far more precious to give them than money and material things-He gives peace. Where is the peace now, little prince? You fat ass fuck. And where, oh Where, is Brother Rennie?

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 21:35:55 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: Send your money here..... Subject: Re: TM reaction to terrorist attack Message:

I'll bet rawat's ticked that he didn't think of it first.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 17:30:39 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: All Subject: chemical/biological info Message:

Biological And Chemical Weapons - What They Are And What They Can Do CNN.com 9-24-1 Called the 'poor man's weapons of mass destruction,' biological and chemical weapons are, unlike nuclear arms, relatively easy to produce, hide, and use. Our chart lists some of the more menacing biological and chemical weapons, how they work and what they can do. (Note - Thanks to genetic engineering and at least 30 years of devoted efforts to create an incredibly wide variety of lethal agents by the US, Britain, Russia, and other countries, the list below is only the briefest survey of the most common 'off the shelf' agents which might be used in terror attacks on civilians anywhere on the planet. - ed) Biological Weapons ANTHRAX What is it? Bacteria with spore-forming rods; likes to live in the soil How it works: Humans become infected by coming into contact with spores, either by touch or inhalation. The spore then produces a toxin that can be fatal. The incubation period for inhalational anthrax is 1-6 days. Lethal amount: One billionth of a gram (the size of a speck of dust) How long can it survive? Tends to degrade rapidly in sunlight; if kept in the right environmental conditions, anthrax can survive for years. Symptoms: Flu-like symptoms, high fever, fatigue and cough. Shock and death can occur within 24-36 hours of the onset of severe symptoms. Treatment: Antibiotics, including penicillin Prevention: Vaccine BOTULINUM TOXIN What is it? Bacterium that develops only in the absence of oxygen. How it works: By inhalation. Botulinum neurotoxins generally kill by the relatively slow onset (hours to days) of respiratory failure. The individual may not show signs of disease for 24-72 hours. The toxin blocks biochemical action in the nerves that activate the muscles necessary for respiration, causing suffocation. Lethal amount: One billionth of a gram How long can it survive? Relatively short life after it's released Symptoms: Dizziness, dry throat, blurred vision. Treatment: Anti-toxins can be injected soon after exposure to a lethal dose of toxin Prevention: Gas mask, protective clothing Chemical Weapons VX What is it? VX, considered one of the most lethal chemical weapons, is a colorless and odorless liquid that turns into a gas on contact with oxygen. How it works: VX is primarily toxic through the skin, but can also prove fatal when inhaled. VX is fast-moving, virtually undetectable, and can spread through air as well as water. In its liquid state it is roughly the same density as water. It blocks the transmission of impulses along the central nervous system, causing convulsions, respiratory paralysis, and death. Lethal amount: 10 mg (just a drop) Symptoms: Increased salivation, coughing, runny nose, headache and nausea. Prevention: Gas mask, protective clothing MUSTARD GAS What is it? Mustard gas is in its pure state a colorless, odorless liquid, but when mixed with other chemicals, it looks brown and has a garlic-like smell. How it works: Inhaling the vapors causes painful, long-lasting blisters all over the body. Symptoms: Itchy skin, watery eyes and burning sensation in lungs. The long-term effects on an individual may include chronic lung impairment, chest pain and cancer of the mouth, throat, respiratory tract, and skin. It has been linked to causing leukemia and birth defects. Prevention: Gas mask SARIN What is it? Sarin is a highly toxic gas which attacks the central nervous system. How it works: It is chiefly absorbed through the respiratory tract; can be absorbed through the skin at higher environmental temperatures. Depending upon concentration of Sarin, toxicity can occur within minutes. Lethal amount: 100 milligrams Symptoms: In low levels, it causes severe headaches, increased salivation and constrict air passages to the lungs. In higher doses, it causes coughing, increased perspiration, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 08:21:19 (EDT) From: Bob Email: None To: bill Subject: Re: chemical/biological info Message:

I checked some sites at work about chemical warfare. Both sarin and VX seem to have a (partial) antidote: a drug called pyrostigmine, given to the soldiers in the gulf war. It only works when taken BEFORE exposure. Exposed people benefit from valium, which can make a person take a 4 fold dose. Too much exposure can still be saved by artificial respiration for up to 6 months. One of the symptoms not mentioned is a flood of tears, like cutting onions.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 02:32:27 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: bill Subject: well the first two... Message:

arent likely to be tried because they are too easy to defeat. for penicillin, keep moldy bread around just in case. no lie. unless you are deadly allergic to molds and penicillin, you can eat the green mild with no harm. also, you can wad the moldy bread against an infection externally and kill the invader that way, too. as for botulism--since it is an anearobic life form that eeds an airless environment to thrive, fresh air and drying out and spreading the agent thin to expose it to the oxygen in the air works fine. most likely place to encounter it? opening swollen canned goods that have been stored way too long and eating the food therein. just don't. the others? believe it or not, i was told people have survived some of these by jumping into swimming pools.better if you put on scuba gear to stay under till the air clears, tho. it even works for nuclear radiation for a while. they use water sheilding in huge tanks to retard stray ions during sensitive experiments.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 08:25:04 (EDT) From: Bob Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: well the first two... Message:

Sorry, not right. the organism cannot survive exposure to oxygen. The weapon does not contain the organism but its secretions, a venom. the toxin is stable in air.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 17:36:48 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: Some Aussies made this list of Quotes Message:

Diplomats are just as essential to starting a war as soldiers are for finishing it.... You take diplomacy out of war, and the thing would fall flat in a week. --Will Rogers Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind. --John F. Kennedy There never was a good war, or a bad peace. --Benjamin Franklin The Americans will always do the right thing... After they've exhausted all the alternatives. --Winston Churchill I don't know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. --Albert Einstein Politics is war without bloodshed while war is politics with bloodshed. --Mao Zedong If we let people see that kind of thing, there would never again be any war. Pentagon official, on why US military censored graphic footage from the Gulf War In time of war the first casualty is truth. --Boake Carter It is well that war is so terrible, or we should get too fond of it. --Robert E. Lee 'All you have to do is go down to the bottom of your swimming pool and hold your breath.' --David Miller, US DOE spokesperson, on protecting yourself from nuclear radiation Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed. --Winston Churchill Before a war military science seems a real science, like astronomy; but after a war it seems more like astrology. --Rebecca West Military justice is to justice what military music is to music. --Groucho Marx War is much too serious a matter to be entrusted to the military. --George Clemenceau The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities...It is best to win without fighting. --Sun-tzu, The Art of War. Planning a Siege When the rich make war it's the poor that die. --Jean-Paul Sarter 'Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally.' Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's Only the winners decide what were war crimes. --Gary Wills War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it. --Desiderius Erasmus Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. --Sun-tzu, The Art of War. Strategic Assessments 'I was provided with additional input that was radically different from the truth. I assisted in furthering that version.' --Colonel Oliver North, from his Iran-Contra testimony I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --Will Rogers 'My fellow Americans. I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes.' --President Reagan, before a scheduled radio broadcast, unaware that the microphone was already on 'We've got to pause and ask ourselves: How much clean air do we need?' --Lee Iacocca 'We are not ready for an unforeseen event that may or may not occur.' --Dan Quayle 'I do not like this word 'bomb.' It is not a bomb. It is a device that is exploding.' -- French ambassador to New Zealand Jacques le Blanc, regarding press coverage of France's nuclear weapons tests in the Pacific The warning message we sent the Russians was a calculated ambiguity that would be clearly understood. --Alexander Haig 'Men stumble over the truth from time to time, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened.' 'History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.' --Winston Churchill The release of atom power has changed everything except our way of thinking...the solution to this problem lies in the heart of mankind. If only I had known, I should have become a watchmaker. --Albert Einstein You can't say civilization isn't advancing: in every war they kill you in a new way. --Will Rogers

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 17:47:25 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: Rabbi makes the case for hate Message:

A Time To Hate - A Rabbi Speaks Out By Rabbi Shmuel Boteach formerly the Chabad Rabbi at Oxford University http://www.arutzsheva.org 9-22-1 For everything there is a season and a time for every matter under heaven. A time to love and a time to hate; a time for war and a time for peace (Eccl. 3). One of the most frequent themes of my writings is how we - a generation with a fifty percent divorce rate and a professional singles scene - have forgotten how to love. Today I will surprise you by complaining about how we have forgotten how to hate. The proper response to the cowardly brutes who perpetrated the horrific attacks against America is to hate them with every fiber of our being and purge ourselves of any morsel of sympathy which might seek to understand their motives. Forgetting how to hate can be just as damaging as forgetting how to love. I realize that, immersed as we are in a Christian culture that exhorts us to 'turn the other cheek,' this can sound quite absurd. Little do we remember, it seems, the aphorism that those who are kind to the cruel end up being cruel to the kind. Indeed, exhortations to hate all manner of evil abound in the Bible and God Himself hates every form of immorality because of its harm to mankind. Thus the book of Proverbs declares, 'The fear of the Lord is to hate evil.' Likewise, King David declares regarding the cruel: 'I have hated them with a deep loathing. They are as enemies to me.' Hatred is a valid emotion - an appropriate response - when directed at the truly evil: those who have gone beyond the pale of human decency by committing acts which unweave the basic fabric of civilized living. Contrary to Christianity, which advocates turning the other cheek to belligerence and loving the wicked, Judaism obligates us to despise and resist the wicked at all costs. About two years ago, I was on the BBC discussing the tragic bombing of a gay pub that left three dead. I referred to the bomber as an abomination, to which Pastor Tony Campalo, President Clinton's spiritual advisor, replied that we had to love the bomber in the spirit of compassion and forgiveness. Similarly, in my years in Britain I was used to hearing victims of IRA terrorist attacks, after having lost fathers or brothers or sons, immediately announce on air their forgiveness and love for the murderers, in the spirit of Christian love. I disagree vehemently. The individual who, motivated by irrational hatred, chooses to murder innocent victims is irretrievably wicked. He or she has cast off the image of G-d that entitles them to love and has forfeited their place in the human community. Amid my deep and abiding respect for the Christian faith, I state unequivocally that to love the terrorist who flies a civilian plane into a civilian building or a white supremacist who drags a black man three miles while tied to the back of a car is not just insane, it is deeply sinful. To love evil is itself evil and constitutes a passive form of complicity. Contrary to those religious figures who deny Solomon's proverb and preach that religion is about unconditional love and forgiveness for all, I believe there is a point of no return for the mass-murderers of this world. The Talmud certainly teaches that the true object of proper hatred is the sin, not the sinner, whose life must be respected and whose repentance effected. The Talmud also teaches that it is forbidden to rejoice at the downfall of even those sinners whom it is proper to hate: 'Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth.' However, this attitude does not apply to impenitent and hardened monsters who pay no heed to correction. For us to extend forgiveness and compassion to them in the name of religion is not just insidious, it is an act of mocking G-d, who has mercy for all, yet demands justice for the innocent. I have an a typical Christian artist friend who showed me a picture he painted of Jesus embracing Hitler. I felt the picture to be obscene, 'How can you have Jesus holding Hitler?' I objected. 'That's the whole point. That's how far Jesus' love extends.' 'But that's not love,' I corrected him, 'it's disgust. It's like saying that Jesus loves cancerous cells. If you love Hitler, than you are showing contempt for the good and decent people whom he turned into ash and lampshades. The only response to Hitler is utter contempt and violent hatred. The only way to react to incorrigible evil is to wage an incessant war against it until it is utterly eradicated from the earth.' I maintain that any culture that does not hate Hitler and his ilk is a non-compassionate society. Indeed, to show kindness to the murderer is to violate the victim yet again. Thus, in the interest of justice, the appropriate response to the evil person is to hate him with every fiber of our being and to hope they find no rest, neither in this world nor in the next. The pacifist will respond that fighting hatred with hatred accomplishes nothing, that, as in the old Bob Dylan song, 'if we take an eye for an eye we all just end up blind.' This is poppycock because the purpose of our hatred is not revenge, but preservation of justice. To this end I wholeheartedly embrace the example of Simon Wiesenthal, one of the most inspirational men of the twentieth century, who has devoted his life to the pursuit of justice by not allowing Nazi murderers go to their graves in peace. We do not hunt Nazis in order to take revenge. We Jews have better things to do with our time than chase a bunch of pathetic, murderous thugs. Besides, our Torah prevents us from taking retribution. Rather, we track them down because G-d at Sinai entrusted us with the promotion of justice, turning the jungle into a civilized society. We seek them out on behalf of all humanity so that all of the world may know that for genocide there is no apology. In the words of Aristotle, 'All virtue is summed up in dealing justly.' Justice is not a cultural construct. Neither is it a human invention imposed upon the members of society in order that they treat each other with decency and respect. Justice was not created for some utilitarian end. Rather, justice is intrinsic to human nature. We do not teach our children to refrain from stealing because they might get caught. Rather, we teach them that theft is intrinsically wrong, even if they could get away with it. In the Hebrew language there are three words for forgiveness: selicha, mechila and kapparah. The essence of the forgiveness is that an individual is so valuable that we allow them the opportunity to start afresh after error. But since repentance is based on recognizing the infinite value of human life, its premise cannot be simultaneously undermined by offering it to those who have irretrievably debased human life. For a murderer to cry in public and achieve instant absolution is an affront to everything forgiveness stands for and that's why we should feel no guilt for our feelings of revulsion and hatred toward these terrorists. The bottom line is that there are some offenses for which there is no forgiveness, some borders whose transgression society cannot tolerate under any circumstances, and mass murder is foremost among them. Only if we hate the truly evil passionately will we summon the determination to fight them fervently. Odd and uncomfortable as it may seem, hatred has its place. Although they referred to a different era in history, the words of Martin Luther King, Jr., still ring true today: 'We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of the good people.' Let us make sure, therefore, that we never make the mistake of forgiving those whose sin is so inextricably woven with their rotten character that the two can never be separate. Let us love the righteous and fight the wicked. ___ Rabbi Boteach, formerly the Chabad Rabbi at Oxford University, is a well-known author and lecturer on Judaism. http://www.arutzsheva.org/

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 18:25:18 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: bill Subject: What's new Rabbi... Message:

I'm beginning to see now why the problem in the middle east will just go on and on and on and on and on ..... Jews espouse hate without compromise....muslims espouse hate without compromise ......and for good measure Christians go on crusades ..... Thank you God for revealing yourself through these wonderful religions ....where would we be without you? Where would we be without a religion to belong to ? err......a sane world maybe?

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 19:26:53 (EDT) From: PatD Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: What's new Rabbi... Message:

I see your general point Dermot , but I don't think the rabbi meant that Jews should hate Muslims , even though I'm sure some of them do & vice versa . He was talking about a moral view , one which is harsh & uncompromising & one which I fear (as an old softie unused to such words) will become the flavour of the times to come . BTW see where the Prods & the Taigs have been at it again in Belfast. Just to end on a pessimistic note , 80 yrs of abolishing god in Russia hasn't exactly led to a sane world . All the best

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 04:02:14 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: PatD Subject: I take your point Bill Message:

I did actually get the gist of the Rabbis post .... I chose though to have a GENERAL dig at all religions :) Yeah I know the Soviet experiment (abomination) is not a good case for a 'god' free world .....but they had Lenin and most importantly the mass murderer Stalin as substitute 'gods' ! I hear the IRA are going to blow up a few arms dumps as a gesture only (continually dragging their feet because they can't imagine being naked without ANY weapons) and of course the unionists will not be satisfied with that .....and the bickering will continue. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 17:55:43 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: Market report Message:

Expiration Unwinds To The Downside Asia was pasted again last night with Hong Kong falling 4 percent to a new low. Europe was being trashed and down about 5 percent when the US rolled out of bed this morning, but by the European close they had rallied back to a 2 percent loss when they saw the US market didn’t collapse after the open, which we’ll get to below. The US futures were under tremendous pressure before the open with the Dow futures showing an opening decline of over 400 points. We gapped down big at the open, where most index options expire, the unwinding of those options instantly caused a huge short covering rally that accelerated off of some reassuring comments out of GE. So, after gapping down around 5 percent, we had rallied all the way back to slightly positive as quick as you could say “was that the bottom?” After flirting briefly with positive territory, we had a flameout and reversed back down to about the mid range of the day, still down a couple percent. The remainder of the day was spent flopping and chopping around at those levels. The last hour saw us take a dip to the lows of the afternoon range followed by a rally back near the highs of the range. So, in essence we basically went nowhere all afternoon after the initial collapse off the short covering rally. Volume was extra beefy again (2.3 billion on the NYSE and 2.6 bil on the NASDAQ.) Breadth was 4 to 1 negative on the NYSE and 2 to 1 negative on the NASDAQ. Storage king, EMC, warned last night that it was going to report a Q3 loss and that they were amputating 2000 more jobs. EMC said that the environment for technology was deteriorating rapidly on a global basis. EMC went on to say, “The business world is simply covered in a blanket of hesitation.” And for those that may be thinking that but for the WTC disaster things would be getting better about now, EMC added, “During the quarter the economy showed no improvement.” EMC was smoked for 12 percent to a new low and dragged down BRCD and NTAP by around 10 percent as well. The semis were under pressure again as the SOX slipped another 3 percent to another new low. The August North American Semi Equipment book-to-bill ratio was released last night, and it had fallen back to .61, ending its bounce from April. The equipment shares were mostly lower except for some scattered strength here and there. This silly wireless trade in RFMD and TQNT finally began to fall apart with RFMD falling 9 percent and TQNT 5 percent. Unfortunately that only brings them back to where they began the week, so they’ve still got a ways to go. “Flight to bigness” turned into “flight from bigness” as INTC, DELL, IBM, and MSFT were all smoked to new lows for the move. I think the fact that new lows exploded to over 800 today on the NASDAQ best describes what kind of day tech had today (i.e.- not so good.) Financials were mixed, ending several straight days of carnage. The BKX fell another 2 percent and is now closing in on its April 2000 lows. The XBD gapped down big but managed to recover by the close to end up 2 percent, which is probably just more short covering, but we’ll find out on Monday I guess. That sort of action is peculiar and deserves watching. The derivative king slipped 2 percent to another new low. GE opened at a new low but recovered and moved into the green after the new CEO, Jeffrey Immelt, (a rather appropriate name considering GE’s stock price has melted recently) made some hopeful comments at an analyst meeting. Unfortunately, GE still finished well off its highs for the day. The two most important stocks to watch right now, FNM and FRE, both traded down to their recent September lows but recovered by the close to end well off them but still down. If those lows get taken out next week, look out below. Retailers slipped another percent and closed below its October 2000 lows, confirming for me that the consumer is now officially finished. Even mighty WMT finally came under a little pressure, falling more than a percent. Oil fell 76 cents. The XOI fell a percent after recovering from even steeper losses early on. The OSX rallied 5 percent. Gold rallied $3.10 (closing well off its earlier highs), and lease rates slipped a touch. The HUI slipped a percent after trading higher initially. The US dollar index rose almost a percent back to just shy of its lows the Monday before the WTC disaster. The euro slipped back to just above the 91-cent level. Treasuries were a touch higher in the long end. President Bush’s speech last night (which I thought was quite good) failed to inspire a rally today as the bulls had hoped, and we ended the week near our lows in all the major indexes, except the HUI gold bug index. Conflict is never a bullish event anyway, especially when many of those we may potentially have a conflict with own US assets, as many in the Middle East do. Still, once again today, we failed to get any panic. We were close to getting one after the initial gap down, but the sharp snapback rally revealed that hope was still alive. Now a bounce could still come at any time, or we could see an avalanche of selling on Monday now that the option expiration is over, especially if something happens over the weekend (or doesn’t happen?) A lot of people seem to think that once we start lobbing missiles at somebody, the market will see a huge rally. I’m not so sure about that. That was always the case during the mania, but the post-bubble world is a different world. War is never bullish regardless of whether it's with terrorists or a foreign state, and this is not going to be a quick and easy victory as it was with Iraq. Other than some sort of snapback rally on the news as people try and relive the mania days, I would not expect any sort of big rally to stick that comes off of the news of hostilities having broken out somewhere. In fact, we might see just the opposite. In any event, what continues to really matter as far as stocks are concerned is the fact that the planet is plunging headlong into a recession and stocks remain at silly valuations. That was the case before the WTC disaster, and it still is. The fact that we’re now headed into some sort of conflict is just sauce for the bear market goose unfortunately. So, once again the “crashette” continued today, but bears better be careful. If it doesn’t accelerate into a panic and full fledge crash soon (which it very well may… as I’ve said, that sort of event is likely coming this fall), it’s going to bounce before the next leg down, and the bounce will be violent. That’s why I keep emphasizing how dangerous this market is to both bulls and bears right now. As of Tuesday, commercials still remained net short the S&P and NASDAQ, but had significantly reduced their net short position, which is telling you that this vertical decline may be soon reaching an end, and it’s going to be time to get a bounce. Commercials remain net short in gold, but they’ve been wrong since the WTC bombing sparked a rally in gold. Consequently, there may be something different going in on in gold this time. Remember, the COT report is just another tool in the toolbox, and it’s not foolproof.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 02:53:30 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: bill Subject: whats bad for biz is salvation for mother nature. Message:

despite what the market does, the trees will still fruit, the chlorophyll will continue to produce oxygen, the water cycle will persist, and life will tenaciously go on reproducing and renewing. maybe this is the real wake up call. maybe natue gets to vote last, and her vote is--knock it off or I'll relly give you something to cry about. if the human economy fails, it can only be a vast boon for the rest of life on earth. and just how much rent DOES god charge us, for living on his planet, and using all his stuff?

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 12:55:43 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: All Subject: I just figured it out!!! Message:

I finally figured out why only PWK's are allowed at rawat's speaking events. Other people, people not mind-washed by him, would be barfing all over the place. And wouldn't that look great for the 'Lord of the Universe'?

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 13:16:33 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Re: I just figured it out!!! Message:

that's a big realisation timmi mate. Well just imagine all them PAMs spewing all over da place. Not good for the devoted init :) ?

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 16:00:24 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: salam Subject: Pams? I thought it was pukes? Message:

Maharaji had parked his brand-new Maserati in front of Monica's condo. As he got out, a truck passed too close and completely tore off the door on the driver's side. Maha immediately grabbed his cell phone, dialed 911, and within minutes a policeman pulled up. Before the officer had a chance to ask any questions, M started screaming hysterically. His Maserati, which he had just picked up the day before, was now completely ruined and would never be the same, no matter what the body shop did to it. When M's ranting and raving finally subsided, the officer shook his head in disgust and disbelief. 'I can't believe how materialistic you are,' he said. 'You are so focused on your precious possessions that you don't notice anything else.' 'How can you say such a thing?' asked M. The cop replied, 'Don't you know that your left arm is missing from the elbow down? It must have been torn off when the truck hit you.' 'My God!' M screamed. 'Where's my Rolex?'

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 05:06:16 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: cq Subject: Great Rawat joke, cq! On the nose. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 00:48:21 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: Pams? I thought it was pukes? Message:

very funny.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 12:19:46 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: All Subject: real threat of bio-chemical terrorism Message:

Government grounds crop-dusters for a day; terrorists may have shown interest in aircraft The Associated Press -- Time 9/24/01 9:51 AM WASHINGTON (AP) -- The federal government ordered a one-day grounding of crop-dusting planes nationwide, and newspapers reported possible links between the aircraft and the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. The stand-down Sunday marked the second time that agricultural pilots have been told not to fly since the attacks. Asked about the new grounding, the FBI said it was one of the steps the bureau has taken out of 'an abundance of caution' and 'in reaction to every bit of information and threats received during the course of this investigation.' James Callan, executive director of the National Agricultural Aviation Association, said he got a call from a Federal Aviation Administration official about 8 o'clock Sunday morning. 'They said it was a national security issue,' said Callan. 'I made some calls and the indication was that there still is no specific threat, but the FBI apparently ordered this and they just want to make sure that everyone in the ag aviation industry is keeping their eyes and ears open.' Three Middle Eastern men inquired about crop-duster planes during visits earlier this year to a single-runway airport in Belle Glade, Fla., The Washington Post and the Miami Herald reported in Monday editions. One of the men has since been identified as Mohamed Atta, believed to be one of the suicide hijackers in the terrorist attacks on New York's World Trade Center and the Pentagon in Virginia. The Post also reported that government investigators found a crop-duster manual among the possessions of Zacarias Moussaoui, who is in federal custody. FAA spokesman Scott Brenner said, 'The intelligence community came to us and encouraged us to shut down the crop dusters.' Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld outlined the potential threat Sunday on CBS' 'Face The Nation,' saying that countries sponsoring terrorism have 'very active chemical and biological warfare programs.' 'We know that they are in close contact with terrorist networks around the world,' he said. Crop dusters also were grounded Sept. 16 and for the past week have been barred from flying over metropolitan areas, with some exceptions. The crop dusters were grounded along with all other civilian aircraft after the attacks, with flights resuming Sept. 14. Callan said there are probably about 3,500 agricultural aviators and that this is a crucial time of the year for aerial spraying of crops.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 14:06:02 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Re: real threat of bio-chemical terrorism Message:

On this morning's NBC show, they were in Army supply stores (civilian) interviewing people buying masks, protective suits, etc. I'm just wondering, with so much of the military sent overseas, who's gonna be around the homefires? I honestly don't know what to do. Buy masks for my kid's backpacks? They then were talking about the Anthrax vaccine and how they need to start massive production, etc. So convenient who owns those companies.....

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 02:58:57 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: btdt Subject: the national guard is the frontline Message:

i have an article somewhere about it. actually there is rife redundancy where authority to act in the event of a chem or bio warfare agent is released. the local personnel are actually better prepared to respond to it. if i can find the article, I'll post it here.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 14:20:13 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: btdt Subject: more stuff Message:

[ info cindenced ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 15:40:04 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: btdt Subject: hazardous material truck driving licenses Message:

Among the 80 detainees is a Yemeni gas station employee in suburban San Diego, who was flown to New York for questioning about his ties to some of the hijackers, according to the San Francisco Chronicle.        FBI agents wanted to talk to Omer Bakarbashat, 26, about their suspicions that he coached at least two of the hijackers in English usage and how to use the Internet, and funneled them money, the newspaper said.        The FBI’s wide-ranging investigation extends to U.S. military installations, private flight academies and driving schools. On Monday, Nelson asked the Pentagon to confirm or refute reports that two of the terrorists were listed at a housing facility for foreign military officers at a Pensacola, Fla., naval base.        Yesterday, the senator’s office “was informed that the FBI could neither say ‘yes’ or ‘no”” because the bureau was still “investigating any connection to the military facility,” according to Nelson’s spokesman, Dan McLaughlin.        The FBI told Nelson’s staff that the investigation was complicated by the hijackers’ use of common Arabic names and the possibility that some stole the identities of innocent people.        Two men identified as hijackers by the FBI - Saaed Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi - share the names of men previously listed at bachelor officers’ quarters on the base. Two other hijackers have names similar to individuals who also were listed in public records as using the same address.        Officials said the FBI was also checking why several men detained in the midwest had recently obtained or sought licenses to drive trucks.        “It’s raised some eyebrows,” one federal investigator said. “It’s something we’re looking into, and it’s certainly got people thinking, ‘what’s the reason for this?””        Nabil Almarabh, 34, who was arrested Wednesday in Chicago on a probation violation charge, last year secured a chauffeur’s license in Michigan that would allow him to haul hazardous materials.        While searching for Almarabh - who has been under investigation for alleged financial dealings with associates of Osama bin Laden, the presumed mastermind of the terrorist assaults - FBI agents searched his former Detroit apartment and arrested three men for possession of false documents.        In detaining Ahmed Hannan, Karim Koubriti and Farouk Ali-Haimoud, authorities also found a day planner that contained notes in Arabic about a U.S. air base in Turkey and a Jordanian airport. Two of the three, Hannan and Koubriti, had recently taken a truck-driving course.        Yesterday, a federal magistrate in Detroit ordered all three held without bond.        In an interview, Joseph LaBarge, president of the U.S. Truck Driver Training School in Detroit, said FBI agents interviewed him about Hannan and Koubriti, who in July enrolled in a four-week course on driving tractor-trailers.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 12:21:45 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: more: Re: real threat of bio-chemical terrorism Message:

Pair tried to hire crop spraying planes by Hugh Muir and Justin Davenport Fears that Osama bin Laden terrorists planned chemical attacks on America and Britain increased today as it emerged that attempts were made to hire crop spraying planes. While Scotland Yard detectives continued to question three suspects in London, and to hunt for three more, it was revealed that two men sought information about small aircrafts for distributing pesticides. Zacariuas Moussaoui, a French Algerian known to have lived in Brixton before seeking flying lessons in the US, was allegedly caught by the FBI with manuals for crop dusting planes. Mohammed Atta, who led the gang on the first flight to strike the World Trade Center, visited a crop dusting airfield in Florida, asking lots of questions on topics including how many chemicals a crop dusting plane could hold, according to a witness. Crop dusters near America's 30 biggest cities have been grounded since 11 September. The news has caused alarm on both sides of the Atlantic. In New York army surplus stores report an increase in the sale of gas masks. In Worcestershire a store claimed to have sold 600 masks in the past few days. In London, Scotland Yard is looking for three North African men. But detectives have also been given until Wednesday to question an Algerian pilot and his airline employee wife arrested near Heathrow. Lotfi Raissi, 27, who arrived in Britain nine months ago after completing a flying course in Arizona, is being questioned by Anti-Terrorist officers with his French wife, Sonia, 25. A third man, Abu Imard, 44, was held in Birmingham. All three were arrested on Friday after a request from FBI officers investigating the suicide attacks. They are believed to be on an FBI 'watch' list of more than 200 people whom investigators want to question in connection with the atrocities. Mr Raissi has an American pilot's licence and certificates to fly multiengined and single-engined aircraft. He had recently started a £2,000 course at a flying school near Heathrow to qualify for a European pilot's licence, which would have enabled him to apply for a job flying commercial airlines. Whitehall was sealed off after two men of Arabic appearance were spotted with what appeared to be guns as they drove towards Downing Street. Officers stopped the men's Cherokee Jeep and searched it for weapons. Two suspected firearms were seized.The men were bailed until October after their arrest yesterday, pending further inquiries. It is now believed the weapons may be air guns, in which case no charges will be pressed.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 12:39:43 (EDT) From: such Email: banana@freeatlast.com To: such Subject: new rebel Afghan leaders;bin Laden's jihad fax Message:

http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=459089&in_review_text_id=411448 Ex-diplomat takes over as rebel leader by Michael Griffin Afghanistan’s former charge d’affaires in London has taken over as head of the main opposition group to the Taliban following the assassination of his brother, Ahmad Shah Masood. Rebels: Northern Alliance forces aboard a tank in Jaboul Saraj, northern Afghanistan More on this Story Bin Laden calls for a holy war Wali Ahmad Masood flew to Afghanistan for the funeral of his brother on 17 September and, in a bid to maintain unity, has assumed overall leadership of the coalition forces fighting the Taliban. Day-to-day military control of the 15,000-strong Northern Alliance will remain in the hands of General Mohammed Fahim, former intelligence chief in the regime of President Burhanuddin Rabbani, who was ousted by the Taliban when they captured the capital, Kabul, five years ago this week. Alliance leader Ahmad Shah Masood was assassinated by suicide bombers posing as journalists two days before the attacks on New York and Washington on 11 September. The assassination, reportedly by Moroccan agents of Osama bin Laden, threw the alliance of ethnic minorities into disarray just as it had embarked on a fresh military campaign against Taliban positions in districts north of Kabul. No one could less resemble Masood, the seasoned guerrilla leader, than his brother Wali, who arrived at the Kensington embassy in 1992. Sleek, urbane and speaking fluent English, the Afghan consul was unable even to issue visitors with visas to his own country after the fall of the capital in 1996. But he is expected to play a crucial role in liaising between the battlehardened commanders of the NA and the generals in charge of the US air and ground forces deployed over the weekend in the central Asian republics of Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. Masood’s alliance of Tajik, Uzbek and Shia forces controls under 10 per cent of Afghanistan, but it commands stubborn pockets of resistance less than 50 miles north of the capital. After resolving the issue of succession, the NA sent envoys to Rome to negotiate with former king Zahir Shah, 86, who is widely expected to head a transitional government if US forces defeat the Taliban. Zahir Shah has publicly called for a national uprising to rid Afghanistan of the Taliban. An alliance between the NA’s ethnic minorities and the former monarch, who is Pashtun, could lead to the kind of broad-based government the US considers essential to a post-Taliban period of reconciliation. Significantly, no post-war role has yet been suggested for Mr Rabbani, the elderly religious leader whom the UN still recognises as Afghanistan’s sovereign president. With more Taliban fighters reportedly massing to repel an alliance attack from the eastern border with Pakistan, a US drive from the north could split their forces in two. Washington’s confirmation yesterday that it had lost contact with an unmanned spy plane over Samangan province, south of the strategic town of Mazar-i-Sharif, was a strong indication that military planners now favour the option of an incursion from the north. The alliance hopes to capture Mazar-i-Sharif in the next few days.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 03:10:11 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: such Subject: Re: new rebel Afghan leaders;bin Laden's jihad fax Message:

interesting. your news says 'Washington's confirmation yesterday that it had lost contact with an unmanned spy plane over Samangan province, south of the strategic town of Mazar-i-Sharif, was a strong indication that military planners now favour the option of an incursion from the north.' Our news here on TV in america, is Bush answering to reporters in the negative, denying that we had such a plane out or that they shot it down. hmmmm. so nice of you folks to bring us the word from places that have no agenda to stifle the realities.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 13:01:52 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: such Subject: bin Laden's jihad fax Message:

TV: Bin Laden Urges Pakistanis to Defend Afghans September 24, 2001 10:59 am EST DUBAI (Reuters) - A Gulf Arab satellite television station Monday quoted Osama bin Laden, the top suspect in September 11 attacks in the United States, as urging Pakistanis to fight any assault on Afghanistan by 'crusader Americans.' 'We incite our Muslim brothers in Pakistan to deter with all their capabilities the American crusaders from invading Pakistan and Afghanistan,' Qatar's al-Jazeera television reported him as saying in a statement dated September 23. Washington wants Afghanistan-based bin Laden 'dead or alive' for what it sees as his guiding hand in the suicide plane attacks in New York and Washington that killed thousands of people. Bin Laden has denied any role in the attacks. There was no immediate independent confirmation of the statement's authenticity. An editor at Jazeera said the Qatar-based satellite channel, which interviewed the Saudi-born militant in Afghanistan in 1999, considered the statement genuine. 'I assure you, dear brothers, that we are firm on the road of jihad (holy struggle) for the sake of God inspired by His Prophet, may peace be upon him, and with the heroic faithful Afghani people under the leadership of the emir of the faithful Mullah Mohammed Omar,' the statement said, referring to the reclusive leader of Afghanistan's Taliban rulers. The statement said it was being sent to express condolences for what it called the killing of Muslims in recent disturbances in Karachi related to U.S. plans to use Pakistan in its campaign of retaliation against the suicide-hijacks. 'We hope those brothers (killed in Karachi) are the first martyrs in the battle of Islam in this age,' it said. 'The new Jewish Crusader campaign is led by the biggest crusader Bush under the banner of the cross,' it said in reference to President Bush. The statement faxed to Jazeera was typed in Arabic, signed 'Osama bin Laden' in typed letters and signed in handwriting by 'Osama Mohammad.' http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=459089&in_review_text_id=411448 http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=459004&in_review_text_id=411226 [ http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=459089&in_review_text_id=411448 ] [ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:08:48 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Bin Laden speaks out! Message:

I wonder if this will help the Taliban 'find' him? Seems as if he's still in Afghanistan .... [ Lovely ]

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 16:51:41 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: Jim Subject: that crap wont win him many converts [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 15:12:28 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Bin Laden speaks out! Message:

the February 1999 article from Esquire magazine link here says a lot more. Here's a taster: 'Looking to break the ice, I said to the translator, 'Tell Mr. bin Laden that for a guy who comes from a family known for building roads, he could sure use a better driveway up this mountain.' Okay, so admittedly it wasn't much of a joke, but bin Laden's interpreter appeared stricken. 'No, no, no,' I said, 'don't translate, never mind,' waving off the remark. 'It's okay,' I said, trying to prevent an international incident. Not funny. Sorry. Jesus. There was another problem. As I continued my lame attempts at small talk, flies kept landing on bin Laden's face and white turban. Sensing that this was undercutting their leader's dignity, his aides asked bin Laden and the gunmen in the room to step outside so that they might spray. A few minutes later, in a cloud of insecticide, we began. '

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:23:34 (EDT) From: CNN Email: None To: Jim Subject: The article is misleading... Message:

Jim: Read the article again. It sounds like it's current news, but in fact, bin Laden was captured on tape in 1998 and that's what the reporter is talking about. She doesn't mention that it's from 1998 til a few paragraphs down. The reporter is either a shit writer or she should be ashamed of herself for fanning the flames of a volatile situation.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 14:50:29 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: CNN Subject: It's the Sun - what do you expect? Message:

For those who don't know, the Sun doesn't have a high reputation for journalistic accuracy and integrity. Famous headline of the past include 'Freddie Starr ate my Hamster'. John.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:56:03 (EDT) From: newshound Email: None To: CNN Subject: Re: The article is misleading... Message:

Most people in the Uk do not believe what is written in the Sun newspaper!

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:55:58 (EDT) From: newshound Email: None To: CNN Subject: Re: The article is misleading... Message:

Most people in the Uk do not believe what is written in the Sun newspaper!

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