Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 21, 2001 To: Sep 26, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Richard for Sanjay Wadhawan -:- Sir, can you write about this lineage???? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:39:34 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- He's also emailed me -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:47:56 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- its the radhasoami connection -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 09:02:25 (EDT)

Dermot -:- Was it a PRE-EMPTIVE strike? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 13:41:33 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- So BL murdered 7000 people -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:38:30 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: So BL murdered 7000 people -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:10:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ PatD -:- Re: So BL murdered 7000 people -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:54:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Hey Pat D -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 23:13:47 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- How do you know Pat?? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:59:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ PatD -:- The pre-eminent investigative journal in the uk -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:24:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- It's PLAUSIBLE Pat -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:13:54 (EDT)
__ __ Katie -:- Thanks, PatD -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:48:08 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- In what sense? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:30:52 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Re: In what sense? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 17:49:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- If they're that crazy, they're already dead. -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:43:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: If they're that crazy, they're already dead. -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:27:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Yes, necessarily. [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:45:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Ridiculous Scott [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:14:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Impressive Dermot -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:09:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Not so impressive Scott -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 23:01:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Not so impressive -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 23:47:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- kilodeaths -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:38:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- wishful thinking -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 11:20:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- the naive and sentimental Scott -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 11:52:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Is this what passes for irony? -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 13:10:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: wishful thinking -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 11:45:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- modified wishful thinking: a proposal -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 13:26:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Not so impressive -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:01:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Not so impressive -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:32:43 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Was it a PRE-EMPTIVE strike? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:04:12 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Was it a PRE-EMPTIVE strike? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:33:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- scott, Chuck posted the link on AG [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:54:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Was it a PRE-EMPTIVE strike? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:31:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Pat, check 'rumors of war' site cited by Francesca [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:27:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Is that here somewhere? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:55:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Here is the link - if it works -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:04:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, Katie [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:52:09 (EDT)

cq -:- Know your enemy -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 13:05:29 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: Know your enemy -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:13:31 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Osama bin Laden in China? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:10:10 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- Re: Osama bin Laden in China? -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 13:09:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Osama bin Laden the ground -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 14:39:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- bin Laden the cold, cold ground -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 15:47:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Holy cows and lambs of god -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 18:16:05 (EDT)

Katie -:- 'Beneath the Veil' documentary on CNN (OT) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 11:57:12 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Re: 'Beneath the Veil' documentary on CNN (OT) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 13:38:33 (EDT)

Suedoula -:- Don't shoot boys who throw stones -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 09:59:23 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- Thanks again, Susan! [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:11:28 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- Salon is a great mag! [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:25:31 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: Don't shoot boys who throw stones -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:18:06 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- If Gates gave boys who throw stones -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:58:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Right own, Patty! [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:55:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- good point (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:12:46 (EDT)

JohnT -:- Who is it that strikes ... ? (poem OT) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 09:57:51 (EDT)
__ Poets' Corner -:- I Sit In A Dive......(poem OT) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:40:34 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- John you are an angel -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:01:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Me, a divine messenger ? Nah! -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 10:21:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Okay then you are a Muse -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 14:25:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Okay then you are a Muse -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 07:45:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Okay then you are a Muse -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 15:10:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- 21st century Weimar man -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:36:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- 21st century Weimar man -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:08:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- The People's War -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:55:55 (EDT)

Mel Bourne -:- Opening shots? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 02:36:24 (EDT)
__ Salam -:- Saudis in Flight -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 11:41:34 (EDT)
__ salsa -:- lately -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 08:42:41 (EDT)

Forum Administrnistratorr -:- OK who's the RAT? from Lifes Grate (hic) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 01:36:06 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Another perspective -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 17:52:01 (EDT)
__ __ SC -:- Joke Jimbo joke -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:41:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Why should anyone believe you? -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 15:25:03 (EDT)
__ SC -:- Ah, you're a champ FA. -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 08:48:07 (EDT)
__ Forum Busboy :)) -:- So, take your password and shove it -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 04:40:05 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- I want to know -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 07:07:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Re I want to know- it goes like this -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 07:46:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Silvia -:- ohhhhh........:_( -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 08:35:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: ohhhhh........:_( -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:34:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- I'm not at all sure ... -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:42:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- No I am more confused -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 13:42:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- What SC said on Lifes Great -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:49:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- D:C)+)}(:'(:_ |D =) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 23:45:21 (EDT)
__ __ Anais Nin -:- Roupell is a writer -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 06:17:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Roupell? -:- John, um... -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 09:37:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- Tucker, I think you may need -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 09:51:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Who Cares -:- ???????????????????? [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:00:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- SC/Roupell propagates love to a non-premie -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:29:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Roupell's answer to this on LG -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:51:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Ah, the ever gracious and hypocritical Catweasel -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:47:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- You talking to me? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:31:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salsa but no ketchup -:- DISGUSTING CULT MEMBER -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 10:30:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You're a goddamed lying SOB, CACweasel -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:39:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- You are just a 'BITCH' -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:03:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: You are just a 'BITCH' -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:33:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: You are just a 'BITCH' -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 10:25:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Take note Pat -I'm serious -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 11:05:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That is ALMOST the stupidest thing I've ever read -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 23:23:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- how can a pseudo-persona be serious? -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 12:02:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- your point CW? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:36:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Who gives a......? -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:12:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Who gives a......? -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 05:11:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- I was the Husband -my claim to fame! -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 23:45:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Cat, you ARE a cipher -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 09:40:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Cat, you ARE a cipher -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 10:55:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- No. [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 17:00:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- So are you calling SC a liar? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:40:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: So are you calling SC a liar? -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:15:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Since you don't mind what we call you, CW -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:53:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Beware the quiet ones Pat -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 10:16:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Oh, pranam, Maharaji -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 14:19:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Trash Pat -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 23:29:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- No, Jim, this is the stupidest thing -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 04:56:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: No, Jim, this is the stupidest thing -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:15:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You're getting too low down here -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 15:21:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Dream on Pat (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 22:26:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- PS Cultweasel monitor -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 05:22:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- PS PAT the Rat -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 06:17:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Are you claiming to be quiet? [nt] -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 12:08:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) : More from Lifes Great -:- Stonor says PatC is a liar -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:03:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Apologies Pat ... -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:26:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Apologies Pat ... -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:02:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- More weasel talk from Stonor on LG -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:17:15 (EDT)

Scott T. -:- Roving. -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 00:20:15 (EDT)
__ janet -:- nitpicking, but -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 07:56:46 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: nitpicking, but -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 17:14:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Purple Haze:Excuse me while I kiss the skyNT -:- Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 05:39:24 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- Recovering apocalyptics -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:34:24 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- good post, Katie [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 03:13:46 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Resentment vs Hatred -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:16:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Resentment vs Hatred -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:25:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Resentment vs Hatred -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:40:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Not bad, Scott (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:47:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- I'm not so sure it's just BL/Taliban -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:46:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- ::it was Jack Ruby with the candle stick:: [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 03:18:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: I'm not so sure it's just BL/Taliban -:- Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:40:08 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- good post -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:28:57 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Thanks -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:02:23 (EDT)

Jim -:- You have to read this -- Salam's AG post -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:49:17 (EDT)
__ such -:- I told 'em dis morning -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 22:50:25 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- isn't salsa Silvia? -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:51:52 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Oh my God! -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 22:07:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Salam}) -:- [uhm] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 01:12:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ salsa -:- Re: [uhm] ()) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 01:17:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Silvia -:- Hi -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 00:49:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Salsina, Salsa, Sylvia, you cool! [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:22:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Silvia -:- did you read? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:10:46 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:39:34 (EDT)
From: Richard for Sanjay Wadhawan
Email: skdewan123@yahoo.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Sir, can you write about this lineage????
Message:
I got the following forwarded via email from Guy Rollins. The site mentioned has a lot of striking similarities to early DLM India stuff. Ashrams in Pujabi Bagh and Haridwar also. I'm not sure what this person's motivations or allegiances are. Nor how or why they emailed Guy. - Richard

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sir can you write abt this linage, I am from this linage in India. Pls visit real site of this linage www.shreenanglisahib.com

thanks,
Sanjay Wadhawan
[ www.shreenanglisahib.com ]

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:47:56 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Richard for Sanjay Wadhawan
Subject: He's also emailed me
Message:
The guy also emailed me. I tried to have an email conversation with him, but it seems even much more difficult than with premies !!!!
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 09:02:25 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: its the radhasoami connection
Message:
write him back and direct him to the part of the DKM papers covering the radhasoami history leading up to shri hans'breakaway. remember our cross pollination with the ex-satsangi's a while back, comparing notes and tracing the lineage to determine where Hans fit into theirs and ours?

direct sanjay to this research, all of you--.
JM and richard and guy.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 13:41:33 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Was it a PRE-EMPTIVE strike?
Message:
This was in todays Guardian ....possibly America threatend to attack Afghanistan 2 months ago.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
onathan Steele, Ewen MacAskill, Richard Norton-Taylor
and Ed Harriman
Saturday September 22, 2001
The Guardian

Osama bin Laden and the Taliban received threats of possible
American military strikes against them two months before the
terrorist assaults on New York and Washington, which were
allegedly masterminded by the Saudi-born fundamentalist, a
Guardian investigation has established.

The threats of war unless the Taliban surrendered Osama bin
Laden were passed to the regime in Afghanistan by the
Pakistani government, senior diplomatic sources revealed
yesterday.

The Taliban refused to comply but the serious nature of what
they were told raises the possibility that Bin Laden, far from
launching the attacks on the World Trade Centre in New York
and the Pentagon out of the blue 10 days ago, was launching a
pre-emptive strike in response to what he saw as US threats.

The warning to the Taliban originated at a four-day meeting of
senior Americans, Russians, Iranians and Pakistanis at a hotel
in Berlin in mid-July. The conference, the third in a series
dubbed 'brainstorming on Afghanistan', was part of a classic
diplomatic device known as 'track two'.

It was designed to offer a free and open-ended forum for
governments to pass messages and sound out each other's
thinking. Participants were experts with long diplomatic
experience of the region who were no longer government officials
but had close links with their governments.

'The Americans indicated to us that in case the Taliban does
not behave and in case Pakistan also doesn't help us to
influence the Taliban, then the United States would be left with
no option but to take an overt action against Afghanistan,' said
Niaz Naik, a former foreign minister of Pakistan, who was at the
meeting.

'I told the Pakistani government, who informed the Taliban via
our foreign office and the Taliban ambassador here.'

The three Americans at the Berlin meeting were Tom Simons, a
former US ambassador to Pakistan, Karl 'Rick' Inderfurth, a
former assistant secretary of state for south Asian affairs, and
Lee Coldren, who headed the office of Pakistan, Afghan and
Bangladesh affairs in the state department until 1997.

According to Mr Naik, the Americans raised the issue of an
attack on Afghanistan at one of the full sessions of the
conference, convened by Francesc Vendrell, a Spanish diplomat
who serves as the UN secretary general's special representative
on Afghanistan. In the break afterwards, Mr Naik told the
Guardian yesterday, he asked Mr Simons why the attack should
be more successful than Bill Clinton's missile strikes on
Afghanistan in 1998, which caused 20 deaths but missed Bin
Laden.

'He said this time they were very sure. They had all the
intelligence and would not miss him this time. It would be aerial
action, maybe helicopter gunships, and not only overt, but from
very close proximity to Afghanistan. The Russians were listening
to the conversation but not participating.'

Asked whether he could be sure that the Americans were
passing ideas from the Bush administration rather than their own
views, Mr Naik said yesterday: 'What the Americans indicated
to us was perhaps based on official instructions. They were very
senior people. Even in 'track two' people are very careful about
what they say and don't say.'

In the room at the time were not only the Americans, Russians
and Pakistanis but also a team from Iran headed by Saeed Rajai
Khorassani, a former Iranian envoy to the UN. Three Pakistani
generals, one still on active service, attended the conference.
Giving further evidence of the fact that the Berlin meeting was
designed to influence governments, the UN invited official
representatives of both the Taliban government in Kabul and the
anti-Taliban Northern Alliance. Dr Abdullah Abdullah, the
Northern Alliance's foreign minister, attended. The Taliban
declined to send a representative.

The Pakistani government took the US talk of possible strikes
seriously enough to pass it on to the Taliban. Pakistan is one of
only three governments to recognise the Taliban.

Mr Coldren confirmed the broad outline of the American position
at the Berlin meeting yesterday. 'I think there was some
discussion of the fact that the United States was so disgusted
with the Taliban that they might be considering some military
action.' The three former US diplomats 'based our discussion
on hearsay from US officials', he said. It was not an agenda
item at the meeting 'but was mentioned just in passing'.

Nikolai Kozyrev, Moscow's former special envoy on Afghanistan
and one of the Russians in Berlin, would not confirm the
contents of the US conversations, but said: 'Maybe they had
some discussions in the corridor. I don't exclude such a
possibility.'

Mr Naik's recollection is that 'we had the impression Russians
were trying to tell the Americans that the threat of the use of
force is sometimes more effective than force itself'.

The Berlin conference was the third convened since November
last year by Mr Vendrell. As a UN meeting, its official agenda
was confined to trying to find a negotiated solution to the civil
war in Afghanistan, ending terrorism and heroin trafficking, and
discussing humanitarian aid.

Mr Simons denied having said anything about detailed
operations. 'I've known Niaz Naik and considered him a friend for
years. He's an honourable diplomat. I didn't say anything like
that and didn't hear anyone else say anything like that. We were
clear that feeling in Washington was strong, and that military
action was one of the options down the road. But details, I don't
know where they came from.'

The US was reassessing its Afghan policy under the new Bush
administration at the time of the July meeting, according to Mr
Simons. 'It was clear that the trend of US government policy
was widening. People should worry, Taliban, Bin Laden ought to
worry - but the drift of US policy was to get away from single
issue, from concentrating on Bin Laden as under Clinton, and
get broader.'

Mr Inderfurth said: 'There was no suggestion for military force to
be used. What we discussed was the need for a comprehensive
political settlement to bring an end to the war in Afghanistan,
that has been going on for two decades, and has been doing so
much damage.'

The Foreign Office confirmed the significance of the Berlin
discussions. 'The meeting was a bringing together of Afghan
factions and some interested states and we received reports
from several participants, including the UN,' it said.

Asked if he was surprised that the American participants were
denying the details they mentioned in Berlin, Mr Naik said last
night: 'I'm a little surprised but maybe they feel they shouldn't
have told us anything in advance now we have had these tragic
events'.

Russia's president Vladimir Putin said in an interview released
yesterday that he had warned the Clinton administration about
the dangers posed by Bin Laden. 'Washington's reaction at the
time really amazed me. They shrugged their shoulders and said
matter-of-factly: 'We can't do anything because the Taliban does
not want to turn him over'.'

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:38:30 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: So BL murdered 7000 people
Message:
...in an attempt to get the 1st blow in so to speak.

Apart from the fact that he'd've needed supernatural powers to get those guys trained up as pilots & the plot in place in only 2 months , this whole article is craven bullshit.

For the benefit of our non English contributors the Guardian is the repository of left/liberal ideas in Britain , many of which it's easy to take the piss out of & I do it all the time being an Anarcho/Tory.
That's not to say that I hanker after the days when blacks were niggers , Jews yids , & the local squire had his evil way with the village maidens.

I don't want to get involved in political arguments but I do feel it important to recognise the political slant of newspapers.

The Guardian has always hosted writers & pundits who are anti-American & here we go again.

Maybe they'll stop trying to blame the victims when London gets it , but I doubt it.

Q . What do you call someone who calls a manhole a person hole ?

A . An Arsehole

Oh & death to fucking foxes too .

Love Pat Dorrity

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:10:07 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: So BL murdered 7000 people
Message:
Pat:

Thanks. What do you know about Mel Boore's quoted article above. I suspect it comes from the same sort of 'source.' When the left realizes there's no hay to be made from this idiotic sort of stance, and it will only further discredit their ideological stance, they may cease and desist. I'm really beginning to appreciate the sort of people we have in charge around here, even if I despised them in the aftermath of the election.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:54:14 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: So BL murdered 7000 people
Message:
Hey Scott , try & chill out a bit . I don't know anything at all about Mel Boore though I might have had a nightmare about him once : probably ate a peach .

I've just smoked a big fat spliff , the 1st in months .

The only hope is dope.

All the best

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 23:13:47 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Hey Pat D
Message:
If that was quality weed ....as opposed to the usual solid.....I'm jealous :)

I just indulge once in a while too.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:59:10 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: How do you know Pat??
Message:
How do you know Pat ? Simply because the Guardian doesn't generally reflect your political viewpoint ? That's ridiculous. They may be lying of course or they may not be but please remember if it weren't for the Guardian campaigns in the past (NOT THE TIMES OR TELEGRAPH) then all sorts of miscarriages of justice would be still in force in the UK. The INNOCENT irish prisoners of 18 years in jail would have done 20 odd years by now? That's just one example. The Guardian is the pre-eminent investigative journal in the UK. The Guardian and its 'sister'(loosely) paper the New york Times are a lot more trustworhty than say Ruperts Murdochs Times.

Apart from the Guardian , show me a newspaper in the UK that has even bothered to right a wrong and PROVE it in court.

Also I read them all not just the ones that suit my political leaning and use my judgement accordingly.

Cheers

Dermot

PS IT IS NOT ANTI-AMERICAN , IT JUST ISN'T A POODLE. BIG DIFFERENCE BUD.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:24:30 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: The pre-eminent investigative journal in the uk
Message:
That's quite right Dermot. Don't misunderstand , I'm not suggesting that the Guardian is some sort of enemy within , just pointing out its general vibe , one which irritates me often .

That article doesn't stand up to any kind of rational scrutiny , it has nothing to do with a campaign for justice . That's my judgement.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:13:54 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: It's PLAUSIBLE Pat
Message:
That's all. I posed a question , not stated a fact.

I think the meeting took place . I don't think the Guardian would mess that up. The attendees, including the three named US diplomats, at such a meeting would probably discuss a wide range of issues concerning the 'subject' ie Afghanistan.

Whether or not the story stands up obviously depends on the Guardians source. In this case the Pakistani diplomat. Of course he may be spinning the Guardian for the sake of domestic Pakistani politics. Always a possibility.

Also it depends on whether the US delegation specifically or generally proposed a new approach to Afghanistan, to include the use of force. Finally did the Pakistanis pass this on to the Taliban.?

We do know Condola (?) Rice was reviewing a whole heap of US foreign policy for Bush. With the Taliban arresting those Christians recently (or was that less than 2 months ago?) and just the general stance of the Taliban regime we can assume the Bush regime would be more forceful than the inherently diplomatic Clinton. So as Isay, up to now its plausible.

Then whether the Taliban actually did use it as a pre-emptive strike…….well, I don't know.

I'm still not 100 % convinced BL / Taliban were responsible for the Sep 11 attacks. Or whether it was a Iraq or a coalition of them all…….including Hizbullah. Who really knows? Who knows about Lockerbir……Libya or Iran? That was years ago. It may be years (or never) before we find out the truth about any of this stuff.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:48:08 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Thanks, PatD
Message:
The US media is reporting that the plans for the whole operation had been in place for at LEAST a year (including pilot training time, airport surveillance, and so forth). Also, I cannot see why they thought they would achieve anything re the US military by attacking the World Trade Towers. And I might point out that they also hit the wrong side of the Pentagon - if they had wanted to take out all the military leaders, they would have hit the other side. So, no, I don't think it was 'pre-emptive'.

Thanks again for your sensible posts, as always.
Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:30:52 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: In what sense?
Message:
How is an attack on a civilian place of business a 'pre-emptive strike?' What does it pre-empt?

preempt:

1 : to acquire (as land) by preemption
2 : to seize upon to the exclusion of others : take for oneself
3 : to replace with something considered to be of greater value or priority : take precedence over
4 : to gain a commanding or preeminent place in
5 : to prevent from happening or taking place : FORESTALL, PRECLUDE
intransitive senses : to make a preemptive bid in bridge
- pre·emp·tor /-'em(p)-t&r/ noun

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 17:49:46 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: In what sense?
Message:
Well lets see ....I'm not one of the Guardian journalists nor am I a member of the Taliban but IF (and it's pure conjecture of course) the Taliban meant it as a pre-emptive strike then no5 of your dictionary definition would apply wouldn't it ?

I'm only trying to get in the head of the Taliban here but maybe they thought that, given the fairly recent track record of the USA to pull out of engagement if it involves any casualties (eg Lebanon, Somalia ),
then maybe a similar dis-engagement could be induced by causing carnage on an unprecedented scale and on USA soil.

I don't agree with the above reasoning but can see how the Taliban could possibly reason that way.If a nation withdraws from a fight when its SOLDIERS are killed , perhaps they thought CIVILIAN casualties would have a similar effect.

Thus a pre-emptive strike.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:43:23 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: If they're that crazy, they're already dead.
Message:
And I do mean CRAZY.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:27:21 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: If they're that crazy, they're already dead.
Message:
Not necessarily.....we don't know what goes on behinfd the scenes.
For instance I wouldn't be too sure that the wests overwhelming military force is actually going to be the decisive factor here.It PROBABLY will be but not DEFINITELY.

Maybe one day , mid-morning ... The centres of LA, SF, Washington Paris, London, and Berlin are simultaneously devasted before one leader of the Taliban has been harmed.Maybe we'll all be dead from biological or chemical warfare.I wouldn't rule anything out just yet

I mean , who in their right mind, would have envisaged Sep 11 at the beginning of this month?

On the other hand, the west could wrap it up in a fewdays, weeks or months.But let's not discount the idea that Islamic fundamentalists worldwide might now be laughing at the cocksure certainty of the west. Maybe they are ready to fight , hence their first strike. Who knows? Time and fate will tell.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:45:33 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Yes, necessarily. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:14:58 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Ridiculous Scott [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:09:04 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Impressive Dermot
Message:
But then by your esteemed estimation I'm not very intelligent anyway.

Not necessarily.....we don't know what goes on behinfd the scenes.
For instance I wouldn't be too sure that the wests overwhelming military force is actually going to be the decisive factor here.It PROBABLY will be but not DEFINITELY.

So what's that prove? The decisive factor could be propaganda, which we can dominate. It might be intelligence, which we can dominate. It might be economics... you get the picture.

Maybe one day , mid-morning ... The centres of LA, SF, Washington Paris, London, and Berlin are simultaneously devasted before one leader of the Taliban has been harmed.Maybe we'll all be dead from biological or chemical warfare.I wouldn't rule anything out just yet

There's a difference between not ruling something out, and acting as though it's reasonable. Sure that might happen, but if they had that capacity they'd have done it rather than waste time with this little non-warning. And somehow the concept that they'd be that clever, when they had operatives getting on airplanes with tickets dated for Sept. 11 on Sept. 13, just doesn't quite seem... well what's the word you like to use... plausible?

I mean , who in their right mind, would have envisaged Sep 11 at the beginning of this month?

There are no complete surprises. We had intelligence that this might happen, which is the case with nearly every 'strategic surprise.' We simply discounted the warnings, which will not be the case now. You give them far too much credit. And extrapolation from one surprise, where 1/4th of the attack was foiled by a gym teacher with a butter knife, just doesn't add up to invincability in my book.

On the other hand, the west could wrap it up in a fewdays, weeks or months.But let's not discount the idea that Islamic fundamentalists worldwide might now be laughing at the cocksure certainty of the west. Maybe they are ready to fight , hence their first strike. Who knows? Time and fate will tell.

Well I know they aren't 'ready to fight' or they wouldn't be employing terrorism in the first place. The whole idea of the tactic is to make up for the superior force of the enemy. You really need to practice your analytical skills, since it's at least possible your life (or the lives of others) may depend on them.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 23:01:55 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Not so impressive Scott
Message:
For a start your intelligence failed to pick up on the general thrust of my post ie that it may NOT go as hunky dory as you assume it will but I qualified it at the end by acknowledging that, nevertheless the west could wrap it up as planned.

So in effect, I'm more open minded about it. I'd bet my bottom dollar and my last shirt that in the mid-60's , if I said that the viet cong would chase the Americans out of Saigon , frantically shredding documents as they fled you'd call me an idiot. Imbecile. Deluded leftie, whatever. True yeah? Now don't deny it.....you would have:)

So your analyis of my post was unimpressive simply because (as a GENUINE pragmatist) I was doing a mini brain storm within the realm of possibility. I wasn't propounding it, I was raising it.

I really do think my approach is more open ......you just see America as invincible andd also see everything conveniently black/white.

I see the shades of grey where the two meet.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 23:47:12 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Not so impressive
Message:
For a start your intelligence failed to pick up on the general thrust of my post ie that it may NOT go as hunky dory as you assume it will but I qualified it at the end by acknowledging that, nevertheless the west could wrap it up as planned.

It isn't very practical to propose a near impossibility and then simply say it probably won't happen that way. What's the point? They don't plan on 'wrapping it up' any time soon. Nor do I. My expectation is that we will be very lucky if less than 100,000 people die. WWII claimed something like 10,000,000 lives. 'Hunky dory' is not a word I would use here.

So in effect, I'm more open minded about it. I'd bet my bottom dollar and my last shirt that in the mid-60's , if I said that the viet cong would chase the Americans out of Saigon , frantically shredding documents as they fled you'd call me an idiot. Imbecile. Deluded leftie, whatever. True yeah? Now don't deny it.....you would have

I was sought by the FBI at that time, for antiwar activity.

So your analyis of my post was unimpressive simply because (as a GENUINE pragmatist) I was doing a mini brain storm within the realm of possibility. I wasn't propounding it, I was raising it.

Well, I think it was something in between. I'm open to anything, but don't assign the same probability to everything that's possible. In what context would it be appropriate to raise an unlikely, or nearly impossible scenario involving the annihilation of millions of people if that scenario leaves no handholds for effective action? Yeah, maybe our goose is cooked. What good does it do to know that, or propose it as a 'possibility.' Doesn't seem very pragmatic to me.

How could that possibly be considered 'pragmatic' since it fails even to take into account the most basic characteristics of human beings, their beliefs and motivations? I suggest you read a little Charles Sanders Peirce or John Dewey if you care to call yourself a pragmatist. As I said, before this is all over lives may depend on your judgment.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:38:24 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: kilodeaths
Message:
ScottT: My expectation is that we will be very lucky if less than 100,000 people die

An entirely reasonable expectation Scott, and one I am sure would come to pass, if only you were in charge.

bin Laden has slain his thousands, Scott would slay his tens of thousands

On the other hand, don't you think a few dozen Pathan troopers with SAS help could make a useful contribution in keeping casualties low? I have to say that you seem completely out of your depth on this topic, and that you have no notion of just how dangerous and flakey you sound.

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 11:20:41 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: wishful thinking
Message:
John:

To my mind you're the one who's dangerous and flakey. SAS troops? Some sort of surgical strike to capture Bin Laden and the call it a day? If only. No. Either we quell all of the terrorist organizations now, or there'll be more to come on the flip side, and not limited to jet fuel as the destructive element, and not limited to US targets either. As for keeping the casualties low, that's already pretty much a lost dream. 7000 died in 40 minutes, or have you forgotten?

100,000 died in the Gulf War (or thereabouts). We should be so lucky now.

Now, go back to your episode of 'Buffy.'

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 11:52:16 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: the naive and sentimental Scott
Message:
Hmmm, losing the argument Scott? Is that why you are resorting to personal abuse?

I think I should explain something to you. Not only do you come over as 'flakey and dangerous' but 'pompous and conceited'.

Do you really think what you say and how you treat people is helping your cause? Come to that, what is your cause, apart from to soften people up for the kilodeaths (megadeaths) you talk so glibly about?

Surgical strike? Joke. Think guerilla war on the ground. Think it's already happening. Think that US elite troops (Delta and such like) are on their way to join the special forces already there.

But most of all Scott, just think.

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 13:10:29 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Is this what passes for irony?
Message:
Listen, I want to lose the argument... if there's a way to keep the causualties low. I'm not saying it's certain to be that high. What I'm saying as that it'll probably be that high, and it's dangerous to think otherwise. And I certainly do not *want* it that way. What are you talking about?

I think I should explain something to you. Not only do you come over as 'flakey and dangerous' but 'pompous and conceited'.

Well, I don't think anyone but you believes I'm 'flakey and dangerous' but thanks for sharing. I'm pretty sure you and Joe think I'm pompous and conceited. Maybe some others too. I probably am a little. Big deal. The point here has to do with the validity of the argument. If I need to be 'politic' I will be.

But most of all Scott, just think

Well that's certainly a humble attitude isn't it? Let's take a look at the quality of your thought, Mr. Fearless Monster Killer.

Surgical strike? Joke. Think guerilla war on the ground. Think it's already happening. Think that US elite troops (Delta and such like) are on their way to join the special forces already there.

If you think a guerilla war in Afghanistan will involve light casualties you're just plain nuts. This is the quality of thought you bring to the table? When has a guerilla war under similar conditions not been protracted, with enormous casualties? A quick delta force strike to extract Bin Laden would just be the beginning of the struggle. I haven't seen *any* policy analyst or professional indicate otherwise so for. Not a single one. So where are you getting your 'special insight' about a cheap solution? I call it wishful thinking, not because I want to cast aspersions on you, but because that's what it is.

[From the post below concerning the implications of the WTC attack as a wake up call for large scale terrorism.] That could have been said after the East African Embassy bombings with equal truth, so chill.

With equal truth? Really? You've got a really peculiar notion of equality my friend. Yeah they said it, and obviously no one believed it. You're really dangerous. Bin Laden is betting that we're all like you. The embassy bombing wasn't even the same order of magnitude, nor did it take the same level of meticulous planning over a period of years. What in the world are you talking about? Seriously.

I'm not losing the argument, just because you make airy outrageous claims that appeal to people who'd prefer to believe we're in a nice safe coccoon. I don't even think I'm arguing with you yet, because you haven't presented anything that's very plausible. Haven't you been watching the TV for the last two weeks? Where have you been? Splash water on your face. It's a different world, my friend. Most of us know it, whether we have PhDs or not.

Somehow the free world as a whole, not just the US alone, has to develop a common strategy of response that goes beyond mere retaliation.

Where did I say I disagreed with that? I think people need to know what they're getting into is all. If they choose, under that advisement, to wait until a city of a few million dies in an afternoon then I guess that's their choice. I'm afraid that's precisely what they'll do if they listen to the likes of you. But I don't believe in hiding the truth. War occurs on a lot of fronts, and not all are military. What I disrespect is the notion that something inherently costly will be cheap. It deludes people and demoralizes them when they see the real cost. Now, like I said below, go back to your episode of 'Buffy.' That's one cute tough little babe. She'll take care of it all for you. Biff, Bam, Zap.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 11:45:12 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: wishful thinking
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 13:26:54 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: modified wishful thinking: a proposal
Message:
From original post:

Apparently you thought better of your silly statements concerning the implications of the WTC attack and edited everything out? Good choice.

Modification and Proposal:

On reflection I feel pretty confident that you're as emotional about this as I am, in spite of your helpful suggestion that I "chill out." Let's just say that I think I'm right and you're wrong, but hope you're right and I'm wrong. And I want to work on the assumption that my theory is accurate first, and hope that it represents an "excess of preparedness." Instead of battling with me, why don't you discuss some of the measures you'd promote to change the US roll, or perception of our role, in the Middle East? Short of telling us to pack up and go home, that is. Support democratic movements in Jordan and S.A.? I can discuss that. Others? Maybe it's just a matter of the hats we're wearing.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:01:19 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Not so impressive
Message:
Scott

I'm too tired I'll get back ...

' not a near impossibility

' wanted by the FBI ....you naughty boy....I'm impressed

' the wrapping up referred to Afghan/Taliban ONLY .....not the 5/10++ yrs war against worldwide terrorism

' 10 million in ww2 ....think not mate. 20 million Russia alone.

' your last points need thinking about ....I'm exhausted

cioa

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:32:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Not so impressive
Message:
Well, I admit I didn't know what to say about the Russian dead, because it wasn't clear at whose hands they died. According to Arendt it was more like 30 million in the USSR at the hands of Stalin alone, but the records aren't exactly reliable (may have been more). Stalin killed five times as many of his countrymen as the Nazis killed Jews. If you want to see a really dark comedy watch 'Children of the Revolution.'

I don't know what to think about the Taliban. Former Pakistani PM (Bhutto?) talked about the possibility of a new coalition or ruling group *within* the Taliban. Hadn't heard that one before.

Get some sleep.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:04:12 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Was it a PRE-EMPTIVE strike?
Message:
Chuck just told me about an article he was reading. Domain names such as ''Attack on World Trade Center'' were registered a year ago.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:33:31 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Was it a PRE-EMPTIVE strike?
Message:
Pat:

There was an attack on the WTC a number of years ago, by Sheik Rahman and his followers. Who is using the domain name now?

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:54:19 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: scott, Chuck posted the link on AG [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:31:50 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Was it a PRE-EMPTIVE strike?
Message:
Scott, I'll ask Chuck for the link to the article.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:27:47 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Pat, check 'rumors of war' site cited by Francesca [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:55:47 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Is that here somewhere?
Message:
Toooo mnay posts. Can't keep up. Thanks, Katie. I'll look for it.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:04:45 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Here is the link - if it works
Message:
It is an 'urban legends' site that has information about domain name registrations - I'm not sure if the one you mentioned is here. The site is great - especially in light of the possibility for hysteria in the face of the attacks.
[ Rumors of War ]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:52:09 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks, Katie [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 13:05:29 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Know your enemy
Message:
Know your enemy

Mr bin Laden (who according to some reports, is currently in China) is evidently the focus of the coming 'war against terrorism'.

Understanding one's enemies, finding out what motivates them, what their purpose is, and how they view the world, is important. The less we know about them, the weaker our position. For that reason, I give the following link to a site which gives, verbatim, an interview between bin Laden and ABC News correspondent John Miller.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/dailynews/terror_980609.html

(linked article copyright (c)1998 ABCNEWS and Starwave Corporation. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed in any form.)

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:13:31 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Know your enemy
Message:
cq, et al:

After several paragraphs of pretty standard cult rhetoric that could have been uttered by David Koresh by simply changing the word Allah to God or Jesus Christ you get this insightful piece of wisdom:

'Osama Bin Ladin: We have seen in the last decade the decline of the American government and the weakness of the American soldier who is ready to wage Cold Wars and unprepared to fight long wars. This was proven in Beirut when the Marines fled after two explosions. It also proves they can run in less than 24 hours, and this was also repeated in Somalia. We are ready for all occasions. We rely on Allah.'

But in fact what they rely on is a misread of the enemy, a pretty standard sort of miscalculation by cults. Why? Because in order to recruit and maintain their outer core following they need an assessment of the enemy that fits with the desires of the followers, and their own internal cosmology. 'The world is fucked up, and confused' (paraphrase Maharaji) and 'The US is cowardly' (paraphrase UBL). Bad miscalculation, but precisely what one ought to expect. That's almost certainly not the only miscalculation he made.

Relatedly, he saw the attack on the WTC as beneficial to his cause because he assumed it would create confusion and fear only. He failed to consider the possibility that he was creating a rallying point that would further undermine the 'weakness' of Americans and their unwillingness to accept loss of life. Officials from all over the world are visiting the WTC site, and are coming away with an iron resolve to damn his cause to 'the unmarked grave of discarded lies.'

The cult thinking short circuits logic, and by doing so virtually ensures huge miscalculations.

For instance, he sees only the upside of *his* fatwa against civilians, but is perceptive in recognizing the downside for the US (good point about Nagasaki, for instance). A shift in the perception of the US as willing to spare civilian targets (which ought to be feasible in most cases with smart weapons), publicizing how he hides within civilian populations thus making *them* targets and *him* a coward, and his outright declared war against civilian populations, effectively moves him off any high ground he may think he occupies now vis the US. That is, it puts him at a fundamental disadvantage with *some* of his potential recruits, and all we need are a 'few good [Moslem] men' to strike at his Achilles heel (secrecy). BIG miscalculation.

Thanks for the posting.

--Scott Squared

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:10:10 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Osama bin Laden in China?
Message:
Well, I hope he has fun because he hasn't bin laid in years.

But seriously - are the Chinese sympathetic to him? First I heard of that. I was hoping they would hate him since he is such a purveyor of the opium of the masses.

Yes, that interview is good stuff.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 13:09:27 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Osama bin Laden in China?
Message:
Hi there Pat,

Wonder how long it'll be till we can say that he's bin laid in the cold, cold, ground (i.e. six foot under?) One day it'll happen. Just hope he doesn't take any more innocents with him.

Anyway, as far as the Islamic influence in China goes, I recently found the following:

Apparently, along with Buddhism, Daoism, Catholicism and Protestantism, Islam is one of the 5 officially recognised religions in China (there are 32,749 mosques in the entire People's Republic of China, with 23,000 in the province of Xinjiang) - however, religious repression in China is rife, (see Amnesty International report here)

As for the claim that Bin Laden has fled to China - that seems to be in some considerable doubt at the moment,
(report here). It would appear unlikely that either party is sympathetic to each other's agenda.

quote from the Guardian article linked above
:
China feels particularly challenged by what it regards as Islamic terrorism in the vast north-west region of Xinjiang where it has cracked down heavily on Muslim activists.

In June, the vice-president, Hu Jintao, called for 'stringent measures against separatists', and denounced 'illegal activities carried out in the name of religion'.

Two years ago, Chinese leaders in Xinjiang alleged that terrorists were being trained by the Taliban in Afghanistan. There have been a series of bomb atttacks in recent years and some government officials have been murdered.

But Mr Jiang's pledge was qualified yesterday by the vice-foreign minister, Wang Guangya, who said there must be full consultation before any action against terrorism.

Consultation should not be limited to Nato, Mr Wang stressed, since 'any action taken will have its implications for other regions'.

Take care,

Chris, the slightly less nervous and hysterical than wot he sounded like a few days ago.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 14:39:14 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Osama bin Laden the ground
Message:
Well, Chris, like you, I don't feel so hysterical anymore either but I'm an incorrigible optimist. And I am still hoping that China will join the west to neuter the testosterone and religion crazed young Muslim men who are behind all this. If we could welcome the USSR as an ally to stamp out Nazism surely we can welcome China as an ally in ridding ourselves of religious fascism.

Recently I discovered a Chinese Muslim restaurant not far from where I live. Unlike most Chinese restaurants they don't serve pork in every dish. I'm not kosher but I don't eat gazza. Pigs are smarter than dogs and I don't eat them either. They serve mostly lamb and no one can accuse them of being cleverer than dogs.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 15:47:10 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: bin Laden the cold, cold ground
Message:
Anti-religious fascism can be as bad as religious fascism, Pat, and I must confess to being more than a tad wary of the Chinese, judging by their 'treatment' of the Tibetans.

And as to your final para, Pat, strange isn't it, that the dumber the animal the better it's supposed to taste?

BTW, that Chinese Muslim restaurant near you - have you eaten there yet?

Now you're not going to like this (nor are the owners, but forewarned is forearmed, as they say) - and I feel I have to tell you - (though I can't vouch for its authenticity) - I've heard that there's an Islamic law which most Middle Eastern countries recognize, namely:

'After having sexual relations with a lamb, it is a mortal sin to eat its flesh.'

There's lamb, and there's lamb ...

er ... perhaps it adds to the flavour?

;)

More at http://www.zombienation.force9.co.uk/comedy/jokes/sexlaws.html

Enjoy

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 18:16:05 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Holy cows and lambs of god
Message:
Well, Chris, I am no fan of China. Detest communism and totalitarianism etc. Just speculating how WWlll will play out - will China be the next USSR?

53% of my neighbors are Chinese. This neighborhood now has the largest population of Chinese outside of Chinatown. They are perfect neighbors - polite, sweep the sidewalks, work hard, take good care of their kids etc. But they sure are a diverse bunch and it is foolish to ever generalise about them.

No, I haven't eaten at the Chinese Muslim joint yet - a bit wary of different standards of Hygeine. Being in the business has made me quite picky about cleanliness.

There is a Chinese recipe for dog basted in semen. I hope they don't stuff their lambs before they roast them.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 11:57:12 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 'Beneath the Veil' documentary on CNN (OT)
Message:
CNN is showing a documentary film about Afghanistan under the Taliban rule at 11:00 EST tonight, and 7:00 EST tomorrow. (I assume y'all know how to calculate from EST). This film was made by a British woman of Afghani descent - and I highly recommend watching it if you haven't seen it already. It's not easy to watch, but it's well worth it.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 13:38:33 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: 'Beneath the Veil' documentary on CNN (OT)
Message:
Yep Katie, it was shown here a couple of months ago on C4.

It really is incredible isn't it? Jeeze she has some guts ....I thought she was just a C4 newsreader but she's an out and out frontline journalist.

It really shows up the taliban as a ruthless, oppressive regime and the Afghani people as victims.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 09:59:23 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Don't shoot boys who throw stones
Message:

[ Don't shoot boys who throw stones ]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:11:28 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Thanks again, Susan! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:25:31 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Salon is a great mag! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:18:06 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Re: Don't shoot boys who throw stones
Message:
Interesting. I don't have time to read the second portion right now, but it sounds as if what's suggested is a 'cultural war'.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:58:30 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: If Gates gave boys who throw stones
Message:
If Bill Gates gave every little Arab kid a computer and free ISP the war would be over next year as they all became net addicts. And he can afford to.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:55:33 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Right own, Patty! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:12:46 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: good point (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 09:57:51 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Who is it that strikes ... ? (poem OT)
Message:
    Who is it that strikes at America?
    Have you seen its towering workplaces?
    Have you walked thru its mountains?
    Have the forests dwelt in your eyes?

    Have you counted its countries, its peoples, nations and ways?
    Have you read of its Payne, its Jefferson, its Chomsky? What do they say?

    Do you know American ways?
    Do you know there is no America but all the peoples of the Earth? All. And still the millions come.

    The towering hives mingle toiling souls and all the earth talks to them.
    Do you know the Sikh is America? The Hindu, the Muslim, the Jew? Do you know all the Semites dwell there speaking their Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic?

    Are there Kurds in these lands?
    Does the Pathan dwell there in peace?
    Are there Georgians, Kosovars, Turks and all the Turkic speaking peoples?
    Are all the English speaking peoples there?
    Are there Germans, Japanese, French and Russian?
    Is China there, and Africa?
    All the world.
    All the world is in America.
    That is the way of Americans.

    Who is that strikes at America!
    Have you heard its history, why they went?
    Does America need Christ to justify its ways?
    Would you invoke Allah to justify your ways?
    Where is it that Islam and its ways dwells peacefully with the Christian, the Jew, the Hindu?
    Where is it that Islam dwells peacefully with all faiths and with the unbelievers?
    Should those with Islam in their hearts dwell peaceably where they will?
    And all who follow the God of Abraham and Isaiah?
    And those of no god, preferring only the light of human reason saying Can man know God? Do you?

    Can it be said? It can be said!
    Who it is that strikes, must answer to the world!

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:40:34 (EDT)
From: Poets' Corner
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: I Sit In A Dive......(poem OT)
Message:
SEPTEMBER 1, 1939
W.H. Auden

I sit in one of the dives
On Fifty-second Street
Uncertain and afraid
As the clever hopes expire
Of a low dishonest decade:
Waves of anger and fear
Circulate over the bright
And darkened lands of the earth,
Obsessing our private lives;
The unmentionable odour of death
Offends the September night.

Accurate scholarship can
Unearth the whole offence
From Luther until now
That has driven a culture mad,
Find what occurred at Linz,
What huge imago made
A psychopathic god:
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.

Exiled Thucydides knew
All that a speech can say
About Democracy,
And what dictators do,
The elderly rubbish they talk
To an apathetic grave;
Analysed all in his book,
The enlightenment driven away,
The habit-forming pain,
Mismanagement and grief:
We must suffer them all again.

Into this neutral air
Where blind skyscrapers use
Their full height to proclaim
The strength of Collective Man,
Each language pours its vain
Competitive excuse:
But who can live for long
In an euphoric dream;
Out of the mirror they stare,
Imperialism's face
And the international wrong.

Faces along the bar
Cling to their average day:
The lights must never go out,
The music must always play,
All the conventions conspire
To make this fort assume
The furniture of home;
Lest we should see where we are,
Lost in a haunted wood,
Children afraid of the night
Who have never been happy or good.

The windiest militant trash
Important Persons shout
Is not so crude as our wish:
What mad Nijinsky wrote
About Diaghilev
Is true of the normal heart;
For the error bred in the bone
Of each woman and each man
Craves what it cannot have,
Not universal love
But to be loved alone.

From the conservative dark
Into the ethical life
The dense commuters come,
Repeating their morning vow;
'I will be true to the wife,
I'll concentrate more on my work,'
And helpless governors wake
To resume their compulsory game:
Who can release them now,
Who can reach the dead,
Who can speak for the dumb?

All I have is a voice
To undo the folded lie,
The romantic lie in the brain
Of the sensual man-in-the-street
And the lie of Authority
Whose buildings grope the sky:
There is no such thing as the State
And no one exists alone;
Hunger allows no choice
To the citizen or the police;
We must love one another or die.

Defenseless under the night
Our world in stupor lies;
Yet, dotted everywhere,
Ironic points of light
Flash out wherever the Just
Exchange their messages:
May I, composed like them
Of Eros and of dust,
Beleaguered by the same
Negation and despair,
Show an affirming flame.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:01:35 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Poets' Corner
Subject: John you are an angel
Message:
I am assuming that the first poem is yours. It brought tears to my eyes. Thank you.
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 10:21:44 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Me, a divine messenger ? Nah!
Message:
The poem is mine, but I am no angel. I'd say Katie is closer to that than I. Like you, I like a scrap too much to be considered altogether angelic. A sadhu, perhaps, but then a rather grumpy one!

I am very disturbed by the notion put about by the Christian Right that the values of American society as such are what irritated the Manhattan murderers to the extent that the took their own lives in perpetrating the massacre.

There is not a shred of evidence for that view that I have seen. In all the interviews with Bean Laden that I have read (even before recent events) he is clear that it is America's actions in the region that have served as the recruiting sergeant for al-Qaeda.

This latter is the view held by the general public in much of the developing world, including Latin American and Islamic countries, according to this week's 'Economist' magazine.

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 14:25:50 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Okay then you are a Muse
Message:
I am hoping that one of the strategies that we use in this war is to drop the American Christian Fundamentalists on the Muslim Fundamentalists and let them kill each other but it makes too much sense to ever be taken seriously.

I am also hoping that the Muslim fundies are also a very small, if noisy, minority as are the American christian fundies.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 07:45:41 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Okay then you are a Muse
Message:
Well, of course they are Pat. Mr bin Laden's presumption is widely seen to border on heresy by his fellow Muslims. But future American actions could still be taken as a sort of retrospective justification for the Manhattan massacre, and probably will be, if the Crusaders have their way.

But of course, bin Laden is not listening to most Muslims, or indeed to us. He is listening to American militia cultists and Crusaders and feeling beatific and blissed that Allah has guided him so well in stirring up war to radicalise the Muslim masses.

Sigh.

Still, if it all goes horribly wrong (and that would happen sooner rather than later if the Crusaders here are anything to go by) and then I'll be in Grosvenor Square, just as in times of yore.

When will they ever learn?

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 15:10:48 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Okay then you are a Muse
Message:
Well, it looks like doves may be able to go to Grosvenor Square during WWlll and you won't be put under house arrest (a la D. H. Lawrence.)

There will be a civil war here if they try to introduce ID cards. Well, who knows? I am expecting an incremental introduction of a benign police state.

I'm not a hawk but, unlike you, I will not be demonstrating in Union Square. I don't like crowds and this war has been brewing for 50 years. Most Yanks see it as a war for freedom from fascism - religious fascism - the new Nazis.

Anyway I am trying to not join in on the conversations here with the armchair generals.
[ Brits oppose ID cards ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 16:36:11 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: 21st century Weimar man
Message:
I too will be kicking up a fuss if ID cards are introduced. I mean, I can barely remember to carry a handkerchief -- and they'll make me into a crook if I don't carry some State issued document!

No, the attack was masterminded by some very wealthy types, I don't doubt, so I want to see legislation aimed at curtailing their activities, most of which involve being able to do grubby financial deals in secret.

If they suppress ordinary citizens before cleaning that particular Augean stable, I think there will be protests on both sides of the pond.

Now bring on the Cabaret!

(But didn't that all end rather badly?)
[ Cabaret ! ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:08:55 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: 21st century Weimar man
Message:
I suppose we are the new Babylon to the islamic cult fanatics just as Hitler saw that in the Berlin of Christopher Isherwood.

Weimar Berlin may have ended badly but was WWll not a war to end tyranny and not all bad?

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 04:55:55 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: The People's War
Message:
As far as the British were concerned, WW2 was indeed the People's War. People really felt there was no choice, even tho Britain itself had not been attacked by the Nazi regime in power in Germany.

Like most Brits of a certain age, both my parents were active in the WW2, and both my grandfathers. My mother has told me of walking through central London to work (as a military nurse) and how she would walk thru a tunnel of fire, the flames from the burning buildings on either side of the road meeting overhead. She also says it was the time of her life. The old restrictive social mores crumbled giving way to a time of unprecedented personal freedom. Women achieved full equality (reversed after the War), and the camaraderie of war meant all were friends.

After the War, my mother ran a newspaper in occupied Germany and even now (in her dotage) recounts her amazement that not one German she spoke to had been a Nazi, or even supported them ...

As the Second World War came to a close in Europe, Prime Minister Churchill wanted the Nazi leaders to be hunted down and shot on sight.

The U.S. President Truman demurred saying 'undiscriminating executions or punishments without definite findings of guilt, fairly arrived at, would not sit easily on the American conscience or be remembered by our children with pride.'

Thus was the idea of international criminal justice born; the Nuremburg trials were a direct result of President Truman's and America's moral stance.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 02:36:24 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Opening shots?
Message:

[ From Malaysia's Star newspaper ]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 11:41:34 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Saudis in Flight
Message:
22 September:

King Fahd Bin Abdulaziz of Saudi Arabia has been secretly flown out of the kingdom to his palace in Geneva, Switzerland. DEBKAfile reports this breaking news exclusively from its Gulf and Middle East sources. The royal mobile hospital fitted aboard Boeing 757 HZ-HMED landed in the private VIP section of Geneva airport Wednesday afternoon, September 19. A palace conclave led by Crown Prince Abdullah, who effectively rules the kingdom, decided to remove the chronically ailing monarch to safety, fearing he might be stranded in the middle of a military crisis arising from the impending US offensive in the region.

The royal hospital plane was accompanied by another craft of the royal flight carrying the king’s family and entourage.
The possibility of a major terrorist attack on the royal palaces being sparked by the outbreak of hostilities was also taken into account in Riyadh. A group of princes was therefore carried to a safe place in the additional fleet of 10 royal aircraft that ferried members of the Saudi royal family to Geneva.  More than a dozen Mercedes waited on the tarmac of Geneva International Airport to collect the royal arrivals.According to DEBKAfile’s sources, the Saudi royal airlift, which began Tuesday night, September 18, is still in progress. Two more private royal planes are expected in the VIP section of Geneva airport Saturday.

http://www.debka.com/

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 08:42:41 (EDT)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: lately
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 01:36:06 (EDT)
From: Forum Administrnistratorr
Email: None
To: All
Subject: OK who's the RAT? from Lifes Grate (hic)
Message:
I've informed Hotboards management that I intend to carry out a demand campaign on F7 until an apology is posted by the perpetrator. I am hoping they will receive a complaint from F7 management and that this disgusting piece of FA behaviour can be brought to the light where it belongs. Am still waiting to hear back from the ICCB.

OK this is it. I'm gonna smoke out the rat who dared change SC's (a good friend of mine I might add from Lifes IS great for all you cynics out there)post: I beg you give yourself up. I don't want to have to do a search and seizure on each one of you but I will.

I trusted you six and you know who you are. I tried to impress upon you the FA code of ethics and particularly thespecific tenets of the Malibu Accords when dealing with Cultweasels. But did you listen? Did you learn?

The frank answer is NO. Now guess who pays the consequences? That's right the old FA- arino that's who. Do you have to stand before the HOtboard Board of Inquiry? Do you have defend yourself against indefensible and possibly libelous accusations ?

Make no mistake about it. This is war. I will root out the rat in the ship. This is one captain who will stand strong against this outrageous and impudent transgression.

Shamefully, regretfully I will be forced to change the Forum password and fire you all. It goes without saying I'm deeply disappointed and disillusioned. Where can one turn in times like this?

Cultweas, er I mean SC, sir, please accept my most humble apologies for this grevious transgression. IF ANYONE OUT THERE HAS ANY DOUBT WHATSOEVER, CULTWEASL, ER sc DID NOT WRITE THE DESPICABLE POST IN QUESTION AND HE IS A DEVOTED STUDENT OF HIS BELOVED MASTER.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 17:52:01 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Forum Administrnistratorr
Subject: Another perspective
Message:
Didn't SC admit that he and Catweasel perpetrated the illegal and truly, honestly, no-exaggeration-about-it, harrassing CAC website? If so, I for one, think you guys should do whatever you want to his posts. Tear them up, spruce them up, whatever. The only reason he's here is because you can't effectively block him, right? He has no rights, none.
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:41:05 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Joke Jimbo joke
Message:
I'm way too lazy to pull a trip like CAC. Half the material they produced was gleaned long before my hideous persona darkened these halls of light and truth.

Don't worry, I've been coralled to LG only now.

They have to control the wild horses occasionally you know.

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 15:25:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Why should anyone believe you?
Message:
I'm way too lazy to pull a trip like CAC. Half the material they produced was gleaned long before my hideous persona darkened these halls of light and truth.

Don't worry, I've been coralled to LG only now.

They have to control the wild horses occasionally you know.


---

Give me one reason to believe you. One. Fact is, there aren't any. Your admission that you and Cat were involved in CAC makes perfect sense given other things both of you -- if you even are two people and not one or three -- have said.

You have no credibility but that admission on your part might prove troubling for you and Cat. Ha ha!

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 08:48:07 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Forum Administrnistratorr
Subject: Ah, you're a champ FA.
Message:
Integrity lives on F7!

I knew it, deep within my heart.

That's enough for me. I'm calling the dogs off, you've shown me once again what I always felt, that this place is inhabited largely by people just like me, well, err, people even better in fact. People who play no games and are less twisted, more intelligent and who post what they want as themselves without hiding behind endless masks.

I'm a changed cultweasel, humbles and humiliated and who from now on will be posting only short devotional poems and hoping my dear brothers and sisters will open their hearts and feel the joy I am expressing from deep within inside where my pure heart aches to share it's love and wisdom with you all.

Fucking awesome concert put on in US. Godspeed to all the US troops now making their way towards a highly unstable future. May the force be with them. They've never had the good wishes and resolve of so many before.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 04:40:05 (EDT)
From: Forum Busboy :))
Email: None
To: Forum Administrnistratorr
Subject: So, take your password and shove it
Message:
...where the light of ten thousand suns does not shine.

I thought I was doing Mr Roupell a favor by correcting the CACroach's typos.

I quit! This forum is being run by a cult, a cult of vicious hateful warmongering expremies - the Hate Club!

Just how can we ever trust you again?

Your former Forum Exterminator and hater of snakes ;)

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 07:07:21 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Forum Busboy ())
Subject: I want to know
Message:
Can anyone tell me please what all this is about?
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 07:46:42 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re I want to know- it goes like this
Message:
somebody found out that somebody posted something as someone else and then somebody else didnt like it or something like that and somebody called someone a fellow and pulled his nose
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 08:35:36 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: ohhhhh........:_(
Message:
Hi Zelda!

You have not posted much. I hope all is good in your life. Thanks for the explanation...BUT I WANT MORE....:)

This 'family' is very disfuctional. I wonder sometimes...

Silvia, exercizing her mother complex. ())

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:34:08 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: ohhhhh........:_(
Message:
hi Silvia- i am around- but I lurketh. as for the situation- sorry to kid you - it is just that I dont read everything and all the alias vs alias dont interest me.
six people with passwords sounds unwieldy.
anyway- I tune into the forum to get the latest news on the international situation.
the forum has a consise up to date view - without the syndication/censoring.
I think exs have a good critical analysis and it shows when they converse about the conflict.

It just doesnt hppen on AG - I think the green soothes people there.!

take care
Z.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:42:41 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: I'm not at all sure ...
Message:
... but I think PatC's got through to some premie who'd been using lots of different names and being mean. So that's someone else, someone new for the home team.

Good oh!

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 13:42:13 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: No I am more confused
Message:
hahahahahaha

thanks anyway ())

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:49:18 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: What SC said on Lifes Great
Message:
SC/Roupell said:

''Too coincidental gerry

First my entire post is replaced by someone (acting as FA) and turned into an obscene post concerning Maharaji.

Ten minutes later you announce you're leaving the forum because of SC and Scott T, two people who haven't broken any sanctified taboo or harrassed you in any way. A bit suss mate.

SIX people have the FA pasword on F7?

So what you're saying is that the Administration is now in the hands of an uncontrolled mob? No order, guidelines, rules, integrity, balance or just, fair administration?

gerry, you are very wise, intelligent and sensible to be leaving.

And sorry but doggie isn't going down until the person who re-wrote my post writes a public apology. I know it's NOT an issue anyone should worry about under the present cirmumstances, I know how petty it is and I suspect that the culprit did his dirty deed knowing full well that most people's eyes are turned the other way. This is a time for people in administration positions to behave with more conscientiousness and consciousness (sorry Silvi - just ask someone) than ever before. I'm sure you agree.

In the light of you information I'll wager Pat C got his little FA badge and has thrown a nasty little tantrum already. Gosh, what leadership, he can actually do his crude Maharaji abuse obscenity dance and use premies posts to carry his filthy words. Wow, what POWER!!

I've informed Hotboards management that I intend to carry out a demand campaign on F7 until an apology is posted by the perpetrator. I am hoping they will receive a complaint from F7 management and that this disgusting piece of FA behaviour can be brought to the light where it belongs. Am still waiting to hear back from the ICCB.

Glad to hear you're becoming peaceful and centred gerry.
I look forward to when it translates into actions rather than words.''

Catwaesel told SC:

''F7-A meaningless void in Cyberspace.

Dont give it a moments thought. Just a bunch of lost shit-kickers with worn-out smelly toes on their boots. Personally I couldn't give a fuck what they think. You wanna stand back a bit SC. It looks like the dentist has hit a nerve.They are winding you up.
Pat is just a paranoid little Queen who has been powdering his nose for too long. Just remember SC; if you live by the sword, you will....????''

SC responded to Catweasel thus:

''Quite right Cat

But that little FA caper reached new lows as far as they're concerned. I don't think such an imoral, scummy trick has been pulled before, you'd have probably seen something close in 4 years. There was I laughing about the CAC people's expose and I didn't even heed their warnings. Silly me.

But gee wiz, yea that got me root canal nerve alright.
That isn't swordplay and I ain't going down like that. In fact I aint going down at all. As you advise, I shall retire quietly to the bench and allow the coach to smother me in attention, wet towels and fresh, cold, Gatorade. Yum! And I'll watch my brave bothers and sisters attempt to deal with these charlatans of truth and love.

Is gerry for real? He seems to be claiming some sort of conversion or other and purports to be finding peace via meditation. The going gets weirder don't it?

Yea, I know about poor Pat Mr 'please love me at all costs!' Conman. He fell for cerise and has never quite, err, got...umm... over it. It's embarrassing and sad.''

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 23:45:21 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: D:C)+)}(:'(:_ |D =)
Message:
Thanks Pat!
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 06:17:31 (EDT)
From: Anais Nin
Email: None
To: Forum Busboy ())
Subject: Roupell is a writer
Message:
Has David Roupell posted as Anais Nin? Who is Anais Nin?

David Roupell may write, but is no writer, more a mercenary whore for his Master. He could write anything. He could write to a women after her sexual abuse I don't care if you were raped by a herd of elephants.

Because David has made himself a no-one, anyone can be what he is.

Anais Nin (deceased)
- never a premie

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 09:37:50 (EDT)
From: Roupell?
Email: None
To: Anais Nin
Subject: John, um...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 09:51:58 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Roupell?
Subject: Tucker, I think you may need
Message:
To expand your 'horizons' a little.

Never heard of Anais Nin?

Never been a premie?

This Is Serious Mum...

John, maybe approach a groovy, hip woman (you will need to travel some distance) pay her some money as per usual, but this time, just ask her to tell you all about Anais and the birds and the bees.

Have you ever heard of...

GETTING A LIFE?

By the way, am I French now? Who will I be next...Charles Dickens?

ciao
Davida Roupelle (a gorgeous young French chick who lives in Paris and studies early Italian impressionists at the Louvre and Sorbonne. Ah, Rue L'Almonde in the Autumn - bliss)

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:00:17 (EDT)
From: Who Cares
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: ???????????????????? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:29:40 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Who Cares
Subject: SC/Roupell propagates love to a non-premie
Message:
JohnT (who was never a premie but is married to one) wrote to SC/David Roupell:

''Your cyber-stalking of Abie will haunt you even more than your absurd CAC-antics.'' (David Roupell had written to Abi about her sexual abuse by Jagdeo: ''I don't care if you were raped by a herd of elephants.'')

(Ed.- It was the cyberstalking and vicious insults of Abi by Roupell using many different aliases that drove Abi away and she has not posted on the forum since.)

David Roupell replied to JohnT thus:

''Ok you smarmy shit stirrer lay it on the table big boy. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU ON ABOUT? You are an unbelievably vindictive piece of shit. You have a problemn with me? Then fucking come out with it. Don't bring any other little cyber victim into the game, don't bring the dark dim past into this...be honest , what is you fucking problem Mr John 'never done anything' Tucker?

For your information, Abi Bray and I made up many months ago and have MOVED on from that particular period in our lives. I want to know WHY YOU ,little Johnny, finds it impossible to let go, move on and try to live HERE and NOW like the rest of us?

Do You See how wierd you look? All participants in the war have made peace and left the scene and there you are.. little Johnny Tucker boy, still running around the battle ground on your own screaming obscenities and firing your pop gun all over the place while we're trying to make hay in the same fields.

You hate cerise? Ok, what's your problem? Spell it out. You hate SC, ok, spell it out joker. Your constant barrage of dirty, sick insinuations based on your sad past is beginning to piss me off.
Do you ever take anyone as they are in front of you NOW or do you have a little box with everyone cast forever as stone pieces in your empty cavenous heart?
You really are truly pathetic.

So Mr Never Been an anybody...

PUT UP OR SHUT THE FUCK UP''

I will now post this on Lifes Great.

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:51:43 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Roupell's answer to this on LG
Message:
Roupell said:

''Proboscis therapy for this defect

Kind and loving to John 'ulotrichan' Tuckerbox'?

Yea right. . Fuck off with your stupid idealistic fantasies.

You cling too hard to religion, insecure one. Has San Francisco not yet aroused to a new dawn...

like say...a dawn in Sept 2001?

People like you, Patrick Conlon, don't respond to kindness and loving.

You abuse it. Do you understand?

That's why new and advanced medication is being applied.

Don't worry your little head, it wil kick in soon enough.''

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:47:42 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Ah, the ever gracious and hypocritical Catweasel
Message:
Cat, you really scare me. I'd really hate to ever meet you in person. You appear to be someone who could go off and hurt people. Ever been arrested? How many brawls have you been in?

You are scary, Catweasel.

P.S. Gotta love the Forum Admin and his excellent post here. Put a smile on my face today.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:31:42 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: You talking to me?
Message:
Dont be frightened little man. Brawling? Hmmm . Once I had a disagreement over which seat I sat in at a Billy Graham Crusade. Hmmm
Then there was the time in the 1982 Grand Final when I put out Carlton Captain John Nichols lights with a little hip and shoulder? Is this the type of thing you refer to?
In Oz Drek, being arrested is part of the right of passage to manhood. The question would be better put as 'Ever been convicted Cat?' No - well except for speeding and cross-dressing (at the same time).
So what is so scary? That you dont comprehend STRINE?
PS:As much as I'd like to claim responsibility for CAC, being an egotistical type of Girl, tell Heller that SC making some smart-arse comment does not prove a thing.I had nothing to do with it.Veballing is usually the province of pissweak lower court prosecuters, but ,well Jimbo spends most of his life sparring with that ilk so what can we expect?
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 10:30:48 (EDT)
From: salsa but no ketchup
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: DISGUSTING CULT MEMBER
Message:
You make me ashamed of my past involvement with any of you.

Whoever you are, fricking cunt

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:39:28 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: You're a goddamed lying SOB, CACweasel
Message:
You said: ''In Oz....being arrested is part of the right of passage to manhood.''

Oh, so now you are back in Australia like you used to be before you claimed to be in New Zealand?

You are so tiresomely boring and infantile. Go to the nursery and play with your poop like a good little boy.

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:03:44 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: You are just a 'BITCH'
Message:
Listen old Fart, Dave said I was in NZ. Honestly you can be so bitchy.
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:33:34 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: You are just a 'BITCH'
Message:
Listen old Fart, Dave said I was in NZ. Honestly you can be so bitchy.


---

And you agreed with him and played along.

You know what, CACweasel, until you start acting like a decent human being and stop being such a goddam creepy psychopathic liar and infantile sociopathic game-player, why don't you just go meditate? Huh?

What the hell are you doing here? What sick and twisted obsession brings you to the expremie forum? Are you really as insane as you seem to be or simply mentally retarded? Go surf the net for some porn or do you masturbate while you read posts dissing Rev Rawat?

BTW, until I have further information, I will regard you as the author of CAC. You've been hanging around for years saving posts to use out of context. You're an IT pro (unless you're lying but you sure know how to be living in Oz while having an ISP in NZ) and CAC reeks of your sick and twisted trapped-in-eternal-teenage sense of humor.

(Yoohoo, Mr Fisher, I know you are already watching this CACweasel and I'm sure the FA will supply you with the proxy ISP of this CACroach. With the sort of warrants your client's lawyer can get, I'm sure you'll find this little lost sheep.)

Tomorrow I'll post a link to a case that has recently resulted in six years in prison for an anonymous Australian who slandered an American on the net. Apparently the Aussie police take this stuff very seriously. But I'm off to bed now. I hope you can sleep at night, CACweasel.

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 10:25:21 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: You are just a 'BITCH'
Message:
Pat I beat you to the punch. I actually contacted the Australian Federal police over 3 months ago. I am doing nothing illegal.What you are doing under Australian law is classified as Harrassment. Nice try ,your highness,close but NO cigar!
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 11:05:45 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Take note Pat -I'm serious
Message:
And dont keep placing unsubstantiated and false accusations here or anywhere else about me,or my psuedo persona. Libel requires just one more thoughtless foolhardy step from you Patrick. Be careful. Be very careful.My right to privacy is protected under Australian law. And as you so rightly point out the Australian Law Enforcement agencies are not frightened off by international boundaries. Just learn to live and let live.
If you really want to know who might have put up CAC, think about just who may be monitoring your every move out there amongst the lurkers. Wise up , the easy targets, we are just little diversions. The main game is something else. Or do you think that I'm the only guy you and Heller might have pissed off? I didn't think you were so naive.......
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 23:23:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: That is ALMOST the stupidest thing I've ever read
Message:
And dont keep placing unsubstantiated and false accusations here or anywhere else about me,or my psuedo persona. Libel requires just one more thoughtless foolhardy step from you Patrick. Be careful. Be very careful.My right to privacy is protected under Australian law. And as you so rightly point out the Australian Law Enforcement agencies are not frightened off by international boundaries. Just learn to live and let live.
If you really want to know who might have put up CAC, think about just who may be monitoring your every move out there amongst the lurkers. Wise up , the easy targets, we are just little diversions. The main game is something else. Or do you think that I'm the only guy you and Heller might have pissed off? I didn't think you were so naive.......


---

You are so funny, Cat. You have absolutely no protection under law against any kind of libel or slander. None. Those laws only apply to real people.

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 12:02:05 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: how can a pseudo-persona be serious?
Message:
But Cat, remember you are not a real person, you are an anonymous troll. There could be five or six people dreaming up your posts. Who on earth is going to complain, or say they have been damaged?

'Cat' have consistently harassed and hassled people escaping from a mind-control racket. And the mind control racket relies on psychological GBH to function. That makes you an accessory, and one with malice aforethought.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:36:47 (EDT)
From: selene
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: your point CW?
Message:
Read the Liar's Club - oh no hidden meaning there.

Getting arrested was a rite of passage for most of us during those days. Not a big male macho aussie thing at all.
and...
You and SC need to come to terms inside your head, get your mutual stories straight. The poor thing fell apart in front of all today it was NOT a sight I want to see again. Not before my second cup of coffee anyway. And leave Abi out of all of this. If she has something to say she can and will speak for herself.

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:12:46 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: selene
Subject: Who gives a......?
Message:
My point is simple. I couldn't give a continental. SC is seemingly a fighter and alternately a diplomat. Me ? You can all go and fuck yourselves for all I care....
It seems that there are a group here who absolutely thrive on intrigue. Well here it is plain and simple. I am me. Call me Catweasel if you like! But really all this other fantasy that the tired old Blow Queen and her little helpers dream up? Give me a break.
Like I said, for me it doesn't even get me playing. It's predictable and boring. Boring.
(Nothing macho about it - generally a fact for most young guys over here) And the other matter? Wait and see Selene , you may be surprised.
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 05:11:03 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: Who gives a......?
Message:
CACweasel: And the other matter? Wait and see Selene , you may be surprised.

And she may not be surprised. Do you have anything to say. I mean, ever?

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 23:45:12 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: I was the Husband -my claim to fame!
Message:
Yes I do. You seem to be too stupid to decipher it though.....
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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 09:40:41 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Cat, you ARE a cipher
Message:
... and you decipher into a big zero, a real nowhere cat, singing silly nowhere songs for nobody.

Hey! I feel a song coming on. It's a beautiful day, Cat.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 10:55:51 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Cat, you ARE a cipher
Message:
Well you know who to sing it to by the look of things?
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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 17:00:35 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: No. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:40:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: So are you calling SC a liar?
Message:
PS:As much as I'd like to claim responsibility for CAC, being an egotistical type of Girl, tell Heller that SC making some smart-arse comment does not prove a thing.

Is SC a liar then?

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:15:12 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: So are you calling SC a liar?
Message:
I'd say so. Couldn't you pick it you big dumb schmuck?
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:53:53 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Since you don't mind what we call you, CW
Message:
From now on I will call you MAHARAJI. I dub thee Lord Of The Universe. Yes, that's it. What a wonderful game. We can call you anything since you don't mind being an anonymouse. Therefore we will call you what is the most disgusting name for an ex - Maharaji. Ha ha. Pranam, Balyouguesswhat. It fits perfectly, you both like hiding behind fake names.

Stargazer-in-earth-shoes formerly known as PatC.

You're a joke.

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 10:16:53 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Beware the quiet ones Pat
Message:
Pat , I dont need an identity to relise that you are nothing more than a puffed up Self Important Tragedy. What difference would it make? I actually dont dislike you Pat, but lets face it you were probably why the term 'runs with the foxes and hunts with the hounds' was invented.
The simple truth is that nothing very interesting is happing here. So you try and spice it up. You know add a little ginger and a bit of chilli to what is otherwise abland tasteless mixture that is overcooked and then over corrected. It's sport to you. The trouble is Patrick you are horrendously fucked up. Your brain careers through the night like a runaway train without a Charles Bronson on board to save us all fron the catasphoric pile-up we all know is inevitable when you load up too much juice and then hit the brickwall of truth.
Take a siesta Pat, you need the rest.
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 14:19:46 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Oh, pranam, Maharaji
Message:
Now you really have me quaking in my boots.

And as usual you did not answer my questions. Just what are you doing here?

You have been monitoring the forum for years now. You a member of a really peculiar cult and have issued more threats here than anyone else and you are an interloper attempting to induce paranoia in former cult-members. Who do you think the cops will sympathise with?

You really ought to be meditating a lot more than reading this forum. Don't you realize that one day you may not medtate until you have achieved ''clarity'' because you are so busy monitoring the forum that you will begin to slip and slip and slip until you no longer can meditate. You will begin to rot like a truckload of vegetables.

For every moment that you spend here you are wasting your precious life in not experiencing peace and bliss. How can you throw away such a precious gift that you regard as your immortality within?

Well, actually, judging by your generally sour personality, I doubt if you do experience much peace and bliss. I don't dislike you either. How can one dislike a nothing, a nobody?

Anyway, I'm just so pleased that you are here because lurkinng premies can see the ugly face of the cult every time you post and every time you post more evidence of cult harassment of former followers is documented.

Remember, you are the one who is intruding here and stalking former premies and attempting to frighten them back into the cult. At least that is the way that your behavior will be interpreted by anyone who was never a member of the cult. You are a creepy cult thug.

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 23:29:39 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Trash Pat
Message:
Well it just doesn't seem to be the way they read it over here Pat. In fact the word used to describe the antics of you and several others were 'manipulative and dihonest'
Do you actually understand what a threat is Pat? There has to be an element of the possible about it.The threats you are making are 'possible'. The threats you claim I have made have been viewed for what the were, 'tongue in cheek'. It's your problem if you only can decipher your own humor.More libellous unsubstatiated piss and wind.
I think you may well have always tried on being a snitch. It might have worked at school Pat, but the Australian Federal Police wont be interested in the same sort of trade you offered your School Masters.

Monitoring? For who? Get off the grass.Do I sound like a Church Lady?

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 04:56:44 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: No, Jim, this is the stupidest thing
Message:
.....you ever read.

Oh, yawn, Mahapussyweasel. You disappoint me. I thought you were a little bit smarter.

You said: Well it just doesn't seem to be the way they read it over here Pat. In fact the word used to describe the antics of you and several others were 'manipulative and dihonest.'

So, I suppose, of course, that you told them that these ''manipulative and dishonest'' things were being done to you on your own private website or by email and not on a forum for former members of your fucking weird cult and that you are an unwelcome intruder and cult apologist who has been stalking expremies for years.

You said: Do you actually understand what a threat is Pat? There has to be an element of the possible about it.The threats you are making are 'possible'. The threats you claim I have made have been viewed for what the were, 'tongue in cheek'. It's your problem if you only can decipher your own humor.More libellous unsubstatiated piss and wind.

Yes of course I understand. What's your point? Is it that you are too far away for your threats to be real but that my words are so powerful, dangerous and magical that they can fly all the way to Oz and injure you?

You said: I think you may well have always tried on being a snitch. It might have worked at school Pat, but the Australian Federal Police wont be interested in the same sort of trade you offered your School Masters.

I've never been a snitch, darling, and have always detested authority which is why I'm not happy being the massa's dog like you - content to be an obedient little cultweasel. How can anyone take you seriously, you silly fellow?

Anyway, you're not even a real person but a figment of your own imagination - maya. Go and meditate. I smell some rotting onions. Phew!

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:15:19 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: No, Jim, this is the stupidest thing
Message:
No Pat, I didn't describe you that way . Those who get paid to assess reality rather than silly old Queeny tragedy read it that way. And it is their opinion that you and Heller in particular practice apretty insidious form of 'HARRASSMENT' Threats? Who mentioned threats?
Oh , you did?
PS Pat; that smell? I imagine you probably farted. Now dont try and blame THAT on me. I'm TOO far away..
I know, I know! You never have and even if you did it would smell like Estee Lauder!
So many assumptions. Pat , do you think this is my only playground in Cyberspace?. Dont try and jerk me around. I play in lots of mysterious places. You guys fancy yourselves so butch, so smart!
It's kinda cute. Oh well I'll just drag myself back into my lonely cellar and dream of actually talking to a real person. It's tough down here in the Lighthouse. Milford Sound. Fuck is that another one of those pesky hobbits. Shit where is my shotgun. Where are those fucking Ringwraiths when you need them. Bloody Stars, I told them that the sheep down here were vampires. How was I to know that they would fall in love?Fuck off you little shit Baggins.Get your own bacon!!Cop this .. KABOOOM
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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 15:21:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: You're getting too low down here
Message:
This is my last response to you in this thread as my sweetness is wasted on the desert air down here.

Listen, Maharajipoo, I may use strong language against liars and cultweasels but I never resort to violent words.

Your writing is peppered with allusions to violence. If you were in US and used words like this on the net (''Fuck off you little shit Baggins.Get your own bacon!!Cop this .. KABOOOM!'') you would be interrogated by the cops lest you turn out to be a mass murderer. Evidence of psychosis.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 22:26:50 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Dream on Pat (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 05:22:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: PS Cultweasel monitor
Message:
You said: ''Monitoring? For who? Get off the grass.Do I sound like a Church Lady?''

No you don't sound like a church lady at all. Most church ladies are decent sincere people who enjoy doing selfless service by straightening out white table cloths at aspirant events to which no aspirants come. Church ladies would not dream of reading or posting here. Only cultweasel apologists do that.

So, if you are not a cult monitor, what are you doing here? Not having a purpose here makes you sound like the ultimate time-wasting wanker.

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 06:17:33 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: PS PAT the Rat
Message:
Well Pat I've heard you like a good wank, so what's the problem?Call me Chauncy , but I like to watch.So whatta are you going to do when the whole fabric of what you used to know becomes unrecognizable in about 2 months time.PS,he aint in India big fella.
Hey ,how about you stop using CAC as an excuse to bash the poor acolaytes who know no better than to try and be honest with you?
How come it's cool for you to verbally bash people , yet if anyone from the other side pokes fun , you monster them. What is it, 'Its my party and I'll tantrum if I want to?'
The funny thing is Pat that your here because you dont have anywhere else to go.
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 12:08:44 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Are you claiming to be quiet? [nt]
Message:
... are you making threats?

Vague threats can be just as grevious as specific ones, if not more so. Who are you anyway?

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:03:40 (EDT)
From: Pat:C) : More from Lifes Great
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Stonor says PatC is a liar
Message:
Stonor said: ''CD, why did you stop the 'heads' fun? It was very innocent ... like throwing frisbees with m, or better. And why did PatC lie about Elaine posting something here at F7? I'm sure that you wouldn't have deleted her post, even if she had said what PatC said she did. I came here hoping that she had posted again because I wanted to hear about how her life was going through conversation with her.''

The only time I mentioned Elaine here on F7 was in the following context. I did say here on F7 (at the end of a report about what's happening on LG for those who are banned from it) was: ''PS There is nothing else happening on LG except for JHB trying to get a link to EPO and CT and Elaine agreeing that the WTC victims are better off dead because ''they are in heaven.''

CT/Cosmic Traveller had said to Elaine on LG as part of his essay on the WTC attack (which included refrences to Seth as channelled by Jane Robertson and other sundry cosmic stuff): ''If we have dedicated ourselves to God through whatever we are doing, then there should be a feeling of getting closer to God through our Sadana (practice) and as we near the moment of our death, we are uplifted and our death is made as easy as possible, if not transcended altogether.''

To which Elaine replied: ''Thank you CT, As usual it was good I took the time to read your post. A friend said to me, ' Billy Graham healed me.' I said ' Oh?'. She said when he said at the Sunday Wash. Service
(something like)...'Those people that died - they are in heaven...they don't want to come back.' I missed hearing him...but after all I've read from Yogananda,Sylvia Browne,James Van Bragh et al
---
I truly believe they are the lucky ones.''

CT responded: ''It's been a while Elaine. I do believe, like you, that they are all in Heaven. And yes, better off than here.
peace and love, CT''

Well, I do believe that my phrase ''CT and Elaine agreeing that the WTC victims are better off dead because they are in heaven'' quite accurately sums up their conversation.

Did you bother to read that, Stonor? Did you just get hold of the wrong end of the stick as usual or are you playing little mischievous monkey games again? Naw, you wouldn't, not with me. I'll be charitable and just believe that you were playing suck-up games with CD and were distracted by your monkey mind before you had bothered to read Elaine's and CT's posts.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:26:12 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Pat:C) : More from Lifes Great
Subject: Apologies Pat ...
Message:
I just went back and looked again ... I guess I didn't go down far enough last night - I was very tired at that point. Why didn't you simply correct me there?

Now, could we go back to not talking with each other?

Thanking you in advance,

Anna

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:02:20 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Apologies Pat ...
Message:
Stonor said: ''Why didn't you simply correct me there?''

You know very well darling - so as to show your little games to the real audience and let them see the games you play behind peoples' backs. Don't you know that there are only 4 real people on LG? The rest are SC's aliases.

Stonor said: ''Now, could we go back to not talking with each other?''

Certainly but not until you apologise sincerely.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:17:15 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: More weasel talk from Stonor on LG
Message:
Stonor said to CD about calling me a liar: ''For the record ...before another earthworm bump is raised into a mountain, PatC was correct in saying that Elaine posted here, but I didn't scroll down far enough to find it.''

That's not the point, Stonor, and you know it. You were implying that I lied about WHAT Elaine had posted not that she had posted.

Stonor adds to CD: ''I remember reading a post where you mentioned that Jim had to some extent 'asked' for it (CAC) or something a long those lines, but didn't mention any of the others, in particular Way, who certainly didn't 'deserve' it at all. But let's drop it, yes!

And I did catch a post where you mentioned that this isn't really a 'premie' forum, and I particularly appreciated it seeing as AG tutu is now an 'ex-premie' forum.''

You're a weasel, Stonor, and should stay over on LG with the other liars.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 00:20:15 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Roving.
Message:
From the time I entered the first grade, until the fall of the Berlin Wall I lived under the constant threat of annihilation. There was a military-sponsored show in the early '50s that I used to watch called 'The Big Picture' which attempted to explain the nature of the global (cold) war, and what it was about. They showed pictures of nuclear blasts and promoted bomb shelters, so at the age of six I went down to the basement and rummaged around it the far corner to see if there was a good place to hide. What I found was my Dad's collection of 'Rover Boys' books that had apparently obsessed him as a kid. I drug the musty smelling books up to my room one at a time and read them all. Then I got other books, about sports heroes and mysteries and fantasies. At the end of grade school I discovered Ian Fleming, and was sorely disappointed when I got to the end of that collection. This was several years before anyone had heard of Sean Connery.

In the 60s I was chased by the Devil in Seattle, and Bob Dylan in the Tri-Cities, and thought Rock and Roll was the voice of Truth. I skipped Woodstock, but was at Gold Creek where Jim Morrison touched the moon with his guitar strings and was lifted up. I hid from and outran the FBI during the war. Then the Guru. Hope, until I sprung a leak and the damn boat sank. [Well he deserves at least one sentence.] I was a political activist, the top fundraiser for Oregon Fair Share for several years. I can still squeeze checks out of people for obscure causes when I have to. And all that time, from the time I discovered my Dad's old book cache until I walked my last piece of 'turf' for Citizen Action I had the sword of Damoclese hanging over me, as it hung over us all. You remember?

So, when all of that ended there were warnings about the threat of terrorism. But I figured, we all figured, by comparison it's no big deal. We'll take it, in lieu of what came before it. We ain't seen nothin' like what the Japanese saw in 1945. Not yet. And if we're good and careful we never will. We had deterrence then, which Jonathan Schell likened to a kind of World Government, the fear of which kept everyone in line as long as no one tripped or someone didn't sneeze at the wrong time. So things are touchy now. We have a completely senseless act to assimilate, and we've only just begun. I have no doubt that war is the appropriate response, but it's hard to go for a bike ride. It's as though I oughtn't. Like it's unseemly or something. How to drag the pleasures of that old world into this? I can't start every task before me. I shuffle around until I find one that gives me a little purchase and then take things one step at a time until it's done. Then I use that momentum to start another. At the bottom of all this trepidation, fear, lassitude, and anger is the horrible thought that we haven't even begun to get at the bodies. Nearly 7,000 of them still there in that hole. And I know why it's hard to take the next step, and the next, and the next. It's that other world, the one cradled by deterrence and the one innocent of the horrorists (after Hume's Horror, where a man with at itch can destroy the world). That's gone, and we take the next step, and the next, and the next... until it's done. Because otherwise I just sit down here, and don't get up.

And when it's done (because uncannily I know it will be) what then?

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 07:56:46 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: nitpicking, but
Message:
sorry to nick your autobiography, but Jim Morrison never played a guitar in his life. He was strictly a vocalist. You have to have him somehow mushed together in your head with Jimi Hendrix. Not that it matters to the essence of your speech, but we do strive for truth and accuracy, here, don't we?

you were probably too high at the concert to be able to keep the two straight and tell them apart. been there.

Morrison sang. Hendrix played guitar and sang.
(morrison also played piano, but not on their albums or appearances. it was his personal amusement)

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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 17:14:34 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: nitpicking, but
Message:
Janet:

I had forgotten. Yeah, I was pretty high. He must have been lifted up by Page's guitar strings. Tina Turner was jumping around like a puppet quite a bit too.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, Sep 25, 2001 at 05:39:24 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Purple Haze:Excuse me while I kiss the skyNT
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:34:24 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Recovering apocalyptics
Message:
Hi Scott -
Thank you for the most eloquent post - I think you've articulated a lot of what many people are feeling.

I was the same way as you as a kid. I have written about this here before, but I was in first grade in DC during the Cuban Missle Crisis - it was SCARY. My dad was scared too, which made it a lot worse. Grew up with that fear, and met a lot of hippie-type people who were using various prophecies to predict the end of the world. And there was, of course, a large apocalyptic element in following M - some of the things he said led me to believe that he also thought the world was going to end soon (a lot of premies believe this, and I think some still do.)

You wrote:
it's hard to go for a bike ride. It's as though I oughtn't. Like it's unseemly or something. How to drag the pleasures of that old world into this? I can't start every task before me. I shuffle around until I find one that gives me a little purchase and then take things one step at a time until it's done. Then I use that momentum to start another. At the bottom of all this trepidation, fear, lassitude, and anger is the horrible thought that we haven't even begun to get at the bodies. Nearly 7,000 of them still there in that hole.

We talk about survivor guilt a lot on another forum I post on. I've had it all my life, so I don't feel it as much as other people. The consensus among the people I've talked to about this is that it doesn't help anyone to hurt or punish yourself - in fact, it might hurt people. Easy to say that, though - and much harder to feel that.

Since my nightmare scenario was something like the movie 'The Day After', it's actually made me feel better to see that people didn't degenerate into lawlessness and selfishness after the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon occurred. It's taken away some fear for me to hear how people helped each other - and are helping.

You wrote:
And I know why it's hard to take the next step, and the next, and the next. It's that other world, the one cradled by deterrence and the one innocent of the horrorists (after Hume's Horror, where a man with at itch can destroy the world). That's gone, and we take the next step, and the next, and the next... until it's done. Because otherwise I just sit down here, and don't get up.

I hear you - our worldview has been completely shaken, and I believe we have lost 'that other world' forever - although maybe we never really had it - we just thought we did. People are saying that our world has changed forever - maybe it has. I feel that we were living in a dreamworld, and now it's more real. People all over the world have to deal with terrorist attacks - and also keep living their daily lives - and now we've learned that Americans are not exempt.

But there's a large element of grief involved because we THOUGHT we were safe - and we lost that. From what I hear on the news, people all over the US are frightened and depressed. No one is flying on planes, going on vacation, buying anything, doing what they usually do. You don't hear people talking about it, but it's obvious from the economy that they are not doing it. And, as you said, I think people feel weird about doing something enjoyable.

No words of wisdom here - just wanted to let you know that you are not alone. It must be very hard to be in DC right now - but I almost wish I was there too.

I ordered my spring bulbs last night - THAT made me feel better. Hope you can go for a bike ride too.

Lots of love,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 03:13:46 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: good post, Katie [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:16:33 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Resentment vs Hatred
Message:
Katie:

If I can get my errands done, and can get my landlady off my back, I'm going for a bike ride this afternoon. There's also an annual event called 'Bike DC' that's held tomorrow. Much of the standard route is through Anacostia, but they've shortened it by 20 miles because of security concerns so it's now largely a ceremonial event that begins and ends at RFK Stadium. Haven't decided whether to use my 'lay down' or my 'upright' bike.

I'm beginning to have doubts about this administration's handling of things, especially the refusal to negotiate with the Taliban from a position of strength. There may be good reasons for it, but I'd like to hear what they are. There also seems to be a misapprehension of the horrorist movement itself, which will lead to both an over and under estimation of their capabilities. We have a great deal going for us in the Middle East, and the fact that we are almost universally resented doesn't mean we're universally hated. Bin Laden will utilize the resentments to the extent he can to reach his own goals. But those are not the same as the resentments, any more than Maharaji was about World Peace during the era of deterrence.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:25:14 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Resentment vs Hatred
Message:
Latest news is that the U.S. is drafting a document outlining evidence it has against Bin Laden in the Sept. 11 incidents. According to the media, this is because governments, whose support the U.S. is seeking, are demanding such a document. The document will be public so the Taliban will see the evidence. Obviously, not the same as negotiating but it's something.

The more I think about all this, the more I see the role of technology in creating a world that's too small to contain so much baggage. The world has been hurled at the speed of light into dealing with conflicts faster than it can resolve them.

The lowest common denominator is terrorism. It's always been like that, but up until recently, the world has been broken up into small enough units to deal with it.

I know I must seem all gloom and doom, but the only real protection I see from this latest form of terrorism is to once again have the world primitive enough, where such terrorism is ineffective.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:40:52 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Resentment vs Hatred
Message:
Rick:

Just so we're clear what I mean by 'negotiating' with the Taliban: We start with the 'request' by the Mullas (or however it's spelled) that BL leave. We negotiate to have that request extended to his entire organization, and all supporters. As for evidence, we can present that to our supporters who have a track record of objectivity (in spite of what Salam says) at over 1000 years of the rule of law. We don't let the Taliban see a damn thing. It might be a way out for them, so there's some incentive to accept it. We then give them a timeline and simply say 'If BL and his retinue fails to be a considerate guest and leave your house we will take him out *for* you. We'll *help* you evict your unwanted guest. *That's* what I mean by negotiation.

To hell with giving a totalitarion regime any 'evidence.' That's nuts.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:47:25 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Not bad, Scott (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:46:19 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I'm not so sure it's just BL/Taliban
Message:
I have a strong hunch at LEAST Iraq is involved as well.

Why is the west gathering together a coalition of allies even greater than the Gulf War ?(ie China, Russia etc more on board than the Gulf war days)

Could it be because they KNOW (but are not telling us) that the Islamic fundamentalist are in coalition like never before? All these UNTHINKABLES could well be worhth considering.

As the monty python team says 'nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition ' or to put it another way (in the light of Sep11) ALWAYS EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED.

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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 03:18:41 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: ::it was Jack Ruby with the candle stick:: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 00:40:08 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: I'm not so sure it's just BL/Taliban
Message:
Dermot:

One reason for being willing to negotiate with the Taliban is that Iraq is a higher priority. They've taken some tentative steps toward linking Saddam, but that's all so far. I hear a lot of people talking now about Saddam. Kissinger, Brezhinsky, Woolsey, lots of folks. The Taliban barely have a pot to piss in.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:28:57 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: good post
Message:
I'm feeling the same way. I don't bike but I walk several miles a day, and it's hard to get going. Even though my front door is far from the world at large, my sense of well-being comes from the world at large.

The extremist Islamic culture is like another planet. And what's happend isn't much different than if we'd been invaded by aliens from another planet... one of those weird movies or x-files episodes where the aliens have assimilated into our culture, and we can't even figure out who they are.

Thirty years ago there was a huge counterculture in America. It seemed like a huge dichotomy that would be there forever. I was rooting for the counterculture to win. It was silently defeated and doesn't even exist anymore. I wouldn't have thought that could happen in a million years.

Maybe thirty years from now the Islamic extremists will be too old to care and their children will be more interested in science than politics or religion.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:02:23 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Rick:

Thanks. The 60s counterculture wasn't so much defeated as assimilated. It simply moved into the campus offices of the small and large universities in the US, and into the environmental movement (and the anti-nuclear movement until the 1990s). It also survives in Alinsky-styled organizations like Citizen Action and the PIRGs, which are basically consumer unions. Apart from that, however, it had no real organizational component and, to be honest, no in depth understanding of either ideology or philosophy. It was a net, with no structural components, so had to graft itself onto the structure of the larger society. And, of course, the drug aspect was simply self-destructive.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:49:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: You have to read this -- Salam's AG post
Message:
here premies, here is your Hank.

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a
well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

'Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary.'
Mary: 'Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us.'
Me: 'Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want
to kiss his ass?'
John: 'If you kiss Hank's ass, he'll give you a million dollars; and if you
don't, he'll kick the shit out of you.'
Me: 'What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?'
John: 'Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns
this town. He can do what ever he wants, and what he wants is to give you a
million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ass.'
Me: 'That doesn't make any sense. Why...'
Mary: 'Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars?
Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?'
Me: 'Well maybe, if it's legit, but...'
John: 'Then come kiss Hank's ass with us.'
Me: 'Do you kiss Hank's ass often?'
Mary: 'Oh yes, all the time...'
Me: 'And has he given you a million dollars?'
John: 'Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town.'
Me: 'So why don't you just leave town now?'
Mary: 'You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money,
and he kicks the shit out of you.'
Me: 'Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million
dollars?'
John: 'My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and
I'm sure she got the money.'
Me: 'Haven't you talked to her since then?'
John: 'Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it.'
Me: 'So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've
never talked to anyone who got the money?'
Mary: 'Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a
raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty dollar
bill on the street.'
Me: 'What's that got to do with Hank?
John: 'Hank has certain 'connections.''
Me: 'I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game.'
John: 'But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And
remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass he'll kick the shit of you.'
Me: 'Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight from
him...'
Mary: 'No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank.'
Me: 'Then how do you kiss his ass?'
John: 'Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ass. Other times
we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on.'
Me: 'Who's Karl?'
Mary: 'A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's
ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times.'
Me: 'And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that
Hank wanted you to kiss his ass, and that Hank would reward you?'
John: 'Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the
whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself.'

John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on From the desk of Karl
letterhead. There were eleven items listed:

1. Kiss Hank's ass and he'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the shit out of people who aren't like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don't drink.
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11. Kiss Hank's ass or he'll kick the shit out of you.

Me: 'This would appear to be written on Karl's letterhead.'
Mary: 'Hank didn't have any paper.'
Me: 'I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting.'
John: 'Of course, Hank dictated it.'
Me: 'I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?'
Mary: 'Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people.'
Me: 'I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist
kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?'
Mary: 'It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right.'
Me: 'How do you figure that?'
Mary: 'Item 7 says 'Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough for
me!'
Me: 'Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up.'
John: 'No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2
says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says
'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things
are right, so the rest must be true, too.'
Me: 'But 9 says 'Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says
'The moon is made of reen cheese,' which is just plain wrong.'
John: 'There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far
as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure.'
Me: 'Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of
rock...'
Mary: 'But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of
space, so it could just as easily be green cheese.'
Me: 'I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came from
the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from
doesn't make it cheese.'
John: 'Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank
is always right!'
Me: 'We do?'
Mary: 'Of course we do, Item 5 says so.'
Me: 'You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is
right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the
list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right
because he says he's right.''
John: 'Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to
Hank's way of thinking.'
Me: 'But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?'

Mary blushes. John says: 'Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way.
Anything else is wrong.'
Me: 'What if I don't have a bun?'
John: 'No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong.'
Me: 'No relish? No Mustard?'

Mary looks positively stricken. John shouts: 'There's no need for such
language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!'
Me: 'So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be
out of the question?'

Mary sticks her fingers in her ears: 'I am not listening to this. La la la,
la la, la la la.'
John: 'That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that...'
Me: 'It's good! I eat it all the time.'

Mary faints. John catches her: 'Well, if I'd known you where one of those I
wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the shit out of you I'll be
there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you
bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater.'

ok it took me a while to get this one. (ok i admit i had to get it explained to me) but once you know that Hank = God, $ million = heaven, and Karl's list = bible. this letter explains perfectly how i feel about believers.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 22:50:25 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I told 'em dis morning
Message:
can't you read da 'no soliciting' sign?! such language...

Peace and lentils

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:51:52 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: isn't salsa Silvia?
Message:
I'm pretty sure. But no matter it'a a great post.
Please reply to my email.
Thank you.
Selene
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 22:07:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Oh my God!
Message:
Like I said on AG, I had no idea it was Silvia who posted it. If I'd known I'd have surely asked her permission to repost it here. I just thought it was Salam though, so you know ....

(Now does this one need a :) or not?)

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 01:12:07 (EDT)
From: Salam})
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: [uhm]
Message:
})
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 01:17:55 (EDT)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Salam})
Subject: Re: [uhm] ())
Message:
Read ur mail. call me
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 00:49:46 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hi
Message:
No problem. My son gave it to me to read and I thought in sharing it here, for the premies...

I'm salsina too. I get bored at times but I promise someday I will grow up.

())

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:22:46 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Salsina, Salsa, Sylvia, you cool! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:10:46 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: did you read?
Message:
what Jim posted above?
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