Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 21, 2001 To: Sep 26, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Suedoula -:- I was just wondering . . . -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:16:12 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: I was just wondering . . . -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:34:10 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: I was just wondering . . . -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:21:13 (EDT)

Mr. Dooley -:- The Need for Retribution -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:08:36 (EDT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Re: The Need for Retribution -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 22:50:46 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Zing! Right over your head, Dog -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 23:40:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- No Jim you're right, he was a stupid asshole! [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 00:54:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Dog, HE isn't [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:20:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- 18,000 Muslims murdered by Gandhi followers -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 04:52:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Gandhi's great great grand-daughter -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:30:32 (EDT)

Rick -:- OT More Bin Laden garbage -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 18:14:32 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- Negotiating with the Taliban? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 12:02:05 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- Re: Negotiating with the Taliban? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:55:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Negotiating with the Taliban? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:36:51 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Negotiating with the Taliban?? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:45:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- It's an emotional response -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:25:17 (EDT)
__ Salam -:- Re: OT More Bin Laden garbage -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 01:17:28 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- And Gerry calls *me* insane. -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:31:33 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: OT More Bin Laden garbage -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:12:18 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- Re: OT More Bin Laden garbage -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:28:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: OT More Bin Laden garbage -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 00:58:13 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Gen Colin Powell -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:29:39 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- Re: Gen Colin Powell -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:17:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Gen Colin Powell -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:47:59 (EDT)

SC (posted on LG) -:- What does Maharaji say about Masters? -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 17:09:02 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: What does Maharaji say about Masters? -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 01:20:27 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- miragey = massabaiter; only talks about himself -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:18:39 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- repost:On dogs, collars, and chains -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:24:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: repost:On dogs, collars, and chains -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 23:05:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- + let's not forget those heroic fire dogs in NYC [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:49:19 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- And the devotees/students?? -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 18:06:34 (EDT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Thank you Selene! -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 02:03:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: Thank you Selene! -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 02:45:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- good link and very OT (snicker) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:49:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Good point! On Topic (snicker) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:48:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ ps -:- and back ON TOPIC ;) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:58:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: and back OFF TOPIC ;) -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:56:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks but they really were -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:28:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: thanks but they really were -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:41:36 (EDT)
__ __ silvia -:- You, genious...;()) -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 19:13:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- did you read the article???? -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:40:14 (EDT)

Dermot -:- I've mentioned it a few times -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:52:46 (EDT)
__ Stonor -:- Just curious ... -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 22:47:24 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Re: Just curious ... -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 06:14:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes ... but ... -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:03:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Yes ... but ... -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:42:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: Yes ... but ... -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:56:49 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Re: I've mentioned it a few times -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 19:37:15 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Hi Robyn -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:48:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Hi Robyn -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 23:25:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Hi Robyn -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:07:47 (EDT)
__ __ Katie -:- Yes, Robyn -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:00:07 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- Amazing lyrics - thanks -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 19:24:16 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- C'mon then Katie -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:55:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Couldn't find them -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:45:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Okey Doke, Katie [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 13:44:37 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- With God on our side. -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 19:36:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Suedoula -:- Re: With God on our side. -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:00:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Hi Suedoula -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:52:19 (EDT)

silvia -:- A FBI AGENT just KILLED IN DETROIT -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:08:30 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Silvia, you must be upset :( -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:02:18 (EDT)
__ __ Selene -:- same here Silvia -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:18:38 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- here's the story -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:57:41 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- I AM SO SAD! -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:23:29 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- Holy Cow! It's WW111 on F7 -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 13:55:29 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Yes Pat , where is the man who was going... -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:27:39 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Yes Pat , where is the man who was going... -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:04:10 (EDT)
__ such -:- sharing bananas vs. kilotons -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 14:34:56 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- I come here to help stop m -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:15:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: I come here to help stop m -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:16:33 (EDT)

Richard -:- Afghan War journalist's perspective -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 13:10:34 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: Afghan War journalist's perspective -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:10:05 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: Afghan War journalist's perspective -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 14:04:24 (EDT)

gerry -:- Voting with my feet -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 12:56:04 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- FA Veto == Tyrrany -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:03:45 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Spare me the banalities, please... -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:43:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- crap [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 03:04:10 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- :: pond scum are people too :: -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 19:55:21 (EDT)
__ __ Selene -:- I have to admit -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:53:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- I must confess -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:27:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- I must confess that I agree with you, Sir Dave -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:48:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: I must confess that I agree with you, Katie -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:51:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Re: I must confess that I agree with you, Katie -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:59:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Roger -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:53:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I agree with me -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:17:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I hear you, Selene -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:56:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Re: I hear you, Selene -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:09:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: I agree with me -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:11:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I must confess -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:35:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- I must repent -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:35:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- I must go to bed -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:51:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: I have to admit -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:59:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- whew glad that's over with -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:01:31 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- We're talking ideology? -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:25:28 (EDT)
__ cq -:- Re: Voting with my feet -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:33:05 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Eh? -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:24:30 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Not to say... -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 13:30:03 (EDT)
__ SC -:- So you're the piece of SHIT -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 13:10:28 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- What are you on about, Roupell? -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:51:32 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- David Roupel has no right here -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:12:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ SC -:- Ok you smarmy shit stirrer -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:54:55 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Just keep your socks on. -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 13:07:25 (EDT)

Sir Dave -:- The Afghan's on America's side -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 12:51:34 (EDT)

Timmi -:- I came here to say...... -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 11:35:38 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: I came here to say...... -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:05:44 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: I came here to say...... -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 14:40:19 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Hi Timmi -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:15:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Hi Timmi -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:06:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Hi Timmi -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:47:35 (EDT)

Rick -:- selling stock (OT) -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 08:44:20 (EDT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Re: selling stock (OT) -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 14:46:15 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Free Stock Advice ? -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 17:05:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Free Stock Advice ? -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 18:00:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, that's helpful -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 18:22:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Thanks, that's helpful -:- Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 00:46:16 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- I hope you're right (NT) -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:35:49 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Re: selling stock (OT) -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 10:06:58 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- thanks, Gerry -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 10:48:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Gerry -:- Re: thanks, Gerry -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 10:59:09 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- From Lifes (sic) Great -:- Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 04:57:22 (EDT)


Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:16:12 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I was just wondering . . .
Message:
what if we were all to start publishing quotes from M's original propaganda and the words to those songs we used to sing all, all over the internet. So much of that stuff was published and sent out to all of us. Can he really retract all of it and claim to have never said it then? No slander, just quotes.

What I also wonder is why people who received knowledge back when the 'Lord of the Universe', singing Arti, kissing Lotus Feet, and joining the Ashram was the party line could so easily have accepted the 'I never said that, you must have misunderstood me.'

Then I wonder why 'PWKs' post here and visit and post 'inspirational quotes from the massa. Aren't we the group that have been there, done that and bought the tee shirt (paying an awfully high price for it, too.) Are they expecting us to wake up and thank them one day? Hmmmm.

Just wondering.

Best to all,
Susan
(who's feeling a bit feisty after replying to an ignorant, flag waving piece of propaganda that someone sent today.)

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:34:10 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Re: I was just wondering . . .
Message:
Hi Susan,
The alternative to believing maharaji's incredulous revision of his history is pretty horrendous. It means having to accept you were so wrong about so much. You no longer have a God, you no longer have a promised land or nirvana, and you no longer have the friends you made along the way. It's a pretty big dilemna.

The small amount of time I spent in that dilemna, I just tried to avoid thinking about it. I'd just try to 'change the subject' in my thoughts.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:21:13 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Re: I was just wondering . . .
Message:
Sue,

The EPO site already includes such quotes and lyrics, but it doesn't seem to stop premies from their denial. I keep trying to direct them to read this stuff, and will continue to do so. Somthing must get through their filters one day:-)

John.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:08:36 (EDT)
From: Mr. Dooley
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Need for Retribution
Message:
Feels So Good

By Robert Wright
Robert Wright, a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania, is the author of The Moral Animal and Nonzero: The Logic of Human Destiny. Posted Wednesday, Sept. 19, 2001, at 4:00 p.m. PT

Why does pretty much everyone feel that it's good to punish terrorists? Obviously, there are sound practical reasons to punish people who do bad things, and all of us, pressed to articulate our retributive urge, can list them. Still, the urge precedes the articulation. It is an emotional reflex, a part of human nature no less than the feelings of hunger or lust.

And, like them, it has done much to shape human history. It motivated last week's terrorist attack, and it will help guide the American response. That's why it's worth trying to fathom: The better we understand the retributive urge, the less likely we are to be misguided by it.

In a way, 'urge' is too crude a label. I'm talking not just about the initial burst of anger and vengefulness, but the conviction, forged in that burst and surviving cool reflection, that retribution is right: the sense that, somewhere up in the heavens, some moral scale will have been balanced when people who have wronged you—or who have wronged other people—suffer.

One of the triumphs of modern Darwinian theory is to show how even feelings this ethereal—moral intuitions, not just raw animal impulses—could be products of natural selection. Evolutionary psychologists now have a pretty clear idea why people in all cultures intuit that just as good deeds should be rewarded, bad deeds should be punished.

The explanation gets back to those practical reasons for retribution that we all can articulate when pressed: If people who have wronged you see that there's a price to pay, they'll be less likely to wrong you in the future; and if bystanders see that people who wrong you wind up suffering, they, too, will be less likely to mess with you. Though our pre-human ancestors weren't smart enough to grasp these principles, these principles nonetheless shaped those ancestors, via natural selection. (Birds don't grasp the laws of aerodynamics, but those laws shaped birds.) Because the retributive impulse helped those who possessed it to survive and thrive in the social jungle, genes conducive to it flourished. Meanwhile, those who lacked a retributive disposition were more likely to get abused—have their mates stolen, their food stolen, their acts of generosity not repaid, and so on. They were in general less likely to survive and reproduce in the rough-and-tumble hunter-gatherer social environment that was the context of human evolution. Over time, their genes tended to fall by the wayside, and genes counseling retribution won out.

You see the legacy of this Darwinian logic in chimpanzees, our nearest relatives and the closest thing we have to a living example of our ancestors circa 5 million B.C. They don't just fight back in self-defense, something any old organism can do. They remember the particular chimp that has wronged them and may retaliate well after the event.

There are occasions when a chimp gets so theatrically angry over being wronged that some primatologists think they see signs of a moralistic outrage. Chimps may possess 'the same sense of moral rightness and justice' that humans possess, according to Frans de Waal.

But it's unlikely that in chimps this sense is nearly as well developed as in humans. In the view of evolutionary psychologists Martin Daly and Margo Wilson, this sense got so elaborate in our lineage because of language: We are 'designed' by natural selection not only to retaliate, but to justify our retaliation to others—whether to recruit allies to our cause or to keep allies of our enemies from intervening. We naturally go around asserting that people and groups of people have done us wrong and therefore should be punished. And arguments of this form have resonance precisely because the retributive instinct is built into everyone. Even pacifists have to consciously resist it from time to time.

In sum: Natural selection 'discovered' the principles of deterrence back when our ancestors were too dumb to discover them and implanted a kind of proxy for them in our lineage—the innate sense that retribution is good. Then, later, we in a sense rediscovered the deterrent logic behind retribution and started babbling about it as if we had discovered it first.

In fact, we not only rediscovered this logic; we enshrined it in law. The various deterrent effects of punishment are explicit rationales for it in American legal doctrine. But—interestingly, in light of Darwinian theory—legal doctrine also deems retribution a good thing in and of itself, regardless of whether it actually has deterrent effects. And why is that? So far as I can tell, after listening to moral philosophers try to justify this principle, the answer is this: because these moral philosophers—and jurists over the ages—were born with the intuition that retribution is good. They are just trusting their instincts. And because this instinct feels loftier than, say, hunger or lust, they accord it a loftier kind of authority.

It's a kind of double counting. We say that retribution is good A) because it deters destructive behavior and B) because it feels morally right—when in fact it feels morally right only because of its tendency, during human evolution, to deter destructive behavior.

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Feels So Good

By Robert Wright
Robert Wright, a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania, is the author of The Moral Animal and Nonzero: The Logic of Human Destiny. Posted Wednesday, Sept. 19, 2001, at 4:00 p.m. PT

Why does pretty much everyone feel that it's good to punish terrorists? Obviously, there are sound practical reasons to punish people who do bad things, and all of us, pressed to articulate our retributive urge, can list them. Still, the urge precedes the articulation. It is an emotional reflex, a part of human nature no less than the feelings of hunger or lust.

And, like them, it has done much to shape human history. It motivated last week's terrorist attack, and it will help guide the American response. That's why it's worth trying to fathom: The better we understand the retributive urge, the less likely we are to be misguided by it.

In a way, 'urge' is too crude a label. I'm talking not just about the initial burst of anger and vengefulness, but the conviction, forged in that burst and surviving cool reflection, that retribution is right: the sense that, somewhere up in the heavens, some moral scale will have been balanced when people who have wronged you—or who have wronged other people—suffer.

One of the triumphs of modern Darwinian theory is to show how even feelings this ethereal—moral intuitions, not just raw animal impulses—could be products of natural selection. Evolutionary psychologists now have a pretty clear idea why people in all cultures intuit that just as good deeds should be rewarded, bad deeds should be punished.

The explanation gets back to those practical reasons for retribution that we all can articulate when pressed: If people who have wronged you see that there's a price to pay, they'll be less likely to wrong you in the future; and if bystanders see that people who wrong you wind up suffering, they, too, will be less likely to mess with you. Though our pre-human ancestors weren't smart enough to grasp these principles, these principles nonetheless shaped those ancestors, via natural selection. (Birds don't grasp the laws of aerodynamics, but those laws shaped birds.) Because the retributive impulse helped those who possessed it to survive and thrive in the social jungle, genes conducive to it flourished. Meanwhile, those who lacked a retributive disposition were more likely to get abused—have their mates stolen, their food stolen, their acts of generosity not repaid, and so on. They were in general less likely to survive and reproduce in the rough-and-tumble hunter-gatherer social environment that was the context of human evolution. Over time, their genes tended to fall by the wayside, and genes counseling retribution won out.

You see the legacy of this Darwinian logic in chimpanzees, our nearest relatives and the closest thing we have to a living example of our ancestors circa 5 million B.C. They don't just fight back in self-defense, something any old organism can do. They remember the particular chimp that has wronged them and may retaliate well after the event.
[ Why the need for Retribution ]

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 22:50:46 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Mr. Dooley
Subject: Re: The Need for Retribution
Message:
'Peace between countries must rest on the solid foundation of love
between individuals.' - Mahatma Gandhi

Well thanks Mr. Gandhi, but I don't think that's going to happen. I think the whole human race is fucked. Call it an evolutionary cul de sac. Another failed mutation!

90% of the species that have lived on this earth are now extinct. I don't think we have what it takes to cut the mouse-turd. Next!

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 23:40:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Zing! Right over your head, Dog
Message:
'Peace between countries must rest on the solid foundation of love
between individuals.' - Mahatma Gandhi

Well thanks Mr. Gandhi, but I don't think that's going to happen. I think the whole human race is fucked. Call it an evolutionary cul de sac. Another failed mutation!

90% of the species that have lived on this earth are now extinct. I don't think we have what it takes to cut the mouse-turd. Next!


---

Dog,

Did you even read the Wright article? What in the world does your post have to do with it? Nothing, as far as I can see. Wright makes a very interesting point about the evolution of our sense of retribution, how it evolved before we could properly articulate it. Now that we can, however, we gild the lily, so to speak:

In sum: Natural selection 'discovered' the principles of deterrence back when our ancestors were too dumb to discover them and implanted a kind of proxy for them in our lineage—the innate sense that retribution is good. Then, later, we in a sense rediscovered the deterrent logic behind retribution and started babbling about it as if we had discovered it first.

In fact, we not only rediscovered this logic; we enshrined it in law. The various deterrent effects of punishment are explicit rationales for it in American legal doctrine. But—interestingly, in light of Darwinian theory—legal doctrine also deems retribution a good thing in and of itself, regardless of whether it actually has deterrent effects. And why is that? So far as I can tell, after listening to moral philosophers try to justify this principle, the answer is this: because these moral philosophers—and jurists over the ages—were born with the intuition that retribution is good. They are just trusting their instincts. And because this instinct feels loftier than, say, hunger or lust, they accord it a loftier kind of authority.

It's a kind of double counting. We say that retribution is good 1) because it deters destructive behavior and 2)because it feels morally right—when in fact it feels morally right only because of its tendency, during human evolution, to deter destructive behavior.

The wise mahatma doesn't seem to have anything useful to add to the discussion. Do you?

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 00:54:02 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No Jim you're right, he was a stupid asshole! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:20:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: No, Dog, HE isn't [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 04:52:36 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: 18,000 Muslims murdered by Gandhi followers
Message:
Mahatma Ji did not teach retribution but, like most devotees, many of his followers believed that only they interpreted his words correctly and began to murder Muslims.

Gandhi Ji himself was murdered by one of his own devotees who believed that the sainted lawyer and unelected politician was soft on Muslims.

Maybe that's why Rev R will not adress expremies' concerns. He fears a cultweasel may kill him for being soft on manmuts. ;)

If ever there was a gilded lily (I love that old saw, Jim) Mohandas K was one.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:30:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Gandhi's great great grand-daughter
Message:
is coming to dinner tonight. She emailed me on Thurs to point out that I had misspelled Gandhi and Gujarati and the restaurant website.

Yesterday she phoned to make reservations for tonight.

I better be nice and keep my big mouth shut.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 18:14:32 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: All
Subject: OT More Bin Laden garbage
Message:
The Taliban says they won't turn over Bin Laden without evidence. The U.S. says they won't show evidence. The media doesn't ask why and barely speculates that the Taliban will just reject it.

Is it really the medias job to second-guess the Taliban? What can it hurt to show evidence? Or at least get the government to explain why they won't. Wouldn't the U.S. gain more sympathy if they provided the evidence? After following this story for more than a week, I still don't know any specifics that point to Bin Laden, or any reasons why the public shouldn't know them.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 12:02:05 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Negotiating with the Taliban?
Message:
Hi Rick -
I have a real aversion to the idea of even negotiating with the Taliban, let alone revealing sources that might compromise other people or countries. I posted above about a documentary made by a British woman about life under Taliban rule in Afghanistan - it's truly terrifying. I do not know if it would even be possible to negotiate with the Taliban leaders - since negotiating implies some degree of rationality on the side of the Taliban, and it's difficult to ascribe rationality to them after seeing what they have done to the people in Afghanistan.

TC,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:55:53 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Negotiating with the Taliban?
Message:
Hi Katie,
I'm going to try and see the documentary you mentioned. I saw something Christine Amanpour did on the Taliban so I know how ugly they are.

I'm just terribly suspicious of our own government, and really dismayed at the blind patriotism I see burgeoning. People are almost eager to relinquish their civil liberties!

I guess what I didn't articulate in my original post was that I'm concerned why we, as U.S. citizens, aren't shown the evidence against Bin Laden, or told specifically why we can't see it.

The media has done a great job in some areas of the bombings, but on the subject of evidence, they just completely dropped the ball. They act like it isn't even a question (until today, spurred on by requests from other countries, whose support the U.S. is seeking).

Hope you're doing well,
Rick

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:36:51 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Negotiating with the Taliban?
Message:
Hey Rick -
I'm OK - this has been rough on me as a recovering apocalyptic, plus have my family in the DC area - plus Brian's son living in lower Manhattan (everyone is OK - but scared).

Re the evidence: I can understand some things about not revealing evidence, based on my experience with ex-premie.org (and I do NOT want to argue about this with anyone). Things about confidentiality, not wanting to expose anyone, etc. I have had to keep a lot of stuff confidential as a result of being involved with EPO - some things I wish I did NOT have to keep confidential, but I promised. So I do get that part.

I don't like the blind patriotism either, and I think that ex-premies are particularly sensitive to things like that. I don't know if it will cheer you up to know that people in the DC area are already complaining about having to navigate around the Pentagon during rush hour - the Pentagon has increased security checks, as you probably know, so there is a big back-up onto one of the major roads leading into DC. It kind of makes me feel better to know that people will be people, no matter what...

I hope you can watch that documentary, either today or tomorrow - it's great (but quite depressing.)

Love to you - and hope you are OK. BTW, I am keeping my retirement money in the stock market - it's all in mutual funds though, and I figure I'll let the fund managers deal with it.

Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 15:45:59 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Negotiating with the Taliban??
Message:
Katie:

So, you're in favor of the Bush policy? The one clearly obvious downside to negotiation is that it would lead to the Taliban remaining in power in Afghanistan. That might be unacceptable to Bush since they probably view the Taliban as a rogue (not "rouge") administration that would continue to harbor terrorist organizations. You have a different reason for not wanting the Taliban to stay in power. But ultimately it's the same. Bush may have military intelligence telling him that the Taliban are far from invinceable too. If either Baghdad or Afghanistan falls the stock market should begin to recover quickly, although it's suffering severely under the uncertainty at the moment. Market forces are woosey when it comes to uncertainty.

But the Taliban are probably a good deal more rational than Bin Laden himself. Negotiating with them for UBL's release might still be to our advantage even if we have no intention of accepting anything less that complete capitulation. It might be a good tactical move anyway. And it might keep the markets from a free fall. Bush will have to do something about that soon.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:25:17 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: It's an emotional response
Message:
Hey Scott -
I've been getting e-mails about the Taliban's mistreatment of women for a few years. SEEING it, in the documentary I mentioned above, was horrible. I try to be optimistic, but I think the Taliban government is evil (and I'm not saying every person involved with it is evil, but the net result is evil.)

I can't be pragmatic about this - or how it would help the US if they did negotiate with the Taliban.

BTW, I just got the latest issue of New Yorker, with black on black cover. I highly recommend it to you - especially the 'Talk of the Town' article by Jonathan Franzen - and the analysis by the movie reviewer. Lots of other good stuff in there - although some things might make you mad :). But they have a good range of views, and some incredible stories.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 01:17:28 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: OT More Bin Laden garbage
Message:
There is evidence. It's all speculation. The US goverment want a sheep for the slaughter to pacify it's citizens otherwise it will collapse if they don't. Thus the war and drums.

If there are concret evidence, I haven't seen them.

The question is, why do the Taliban ask for evidence? Because if there are then that will certainly undermine their rule. So where is the evidence?

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:31:33 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: And Gerry calls *me* insane.
Message:
Salam:

There is evidence. It's all speculation.

There is, of course, physical evidence in the wreckage that hasn't been presented yet. I don't see any reason why you'd expect it to be until it's been compiled. Some of it is probably buried pretty deep in that hole. There is also testemony taken during the hijacking and relayed via cell phone that we have all heard. Furthermore the individuals identified in the passports, and linked to Bin Laden, and drawing wages from a single source in the US (not yet linked to UBL, but likely will be), we've found were taking flying lessons in Florida and elsewhere. Some sort of coincidence they were all on the planes? To call this 'speculation' is like saying that you're the father of that three-year-old who looks like you, that your wife gave birth to, and that you're raising, is 'speculative.' More like 'presumptive' I should think. But then I don't really know your family.

The US goverment want a sheep for the slaughter to pacify it's citizens otherwise it will collapse if they don't. Thus the war and drums.

Now THAT'S a good example of speculation, without a single thread of evidence.

If there are concret evidence, I haven't seen them.

You planning on being called as an expert witness in the trial are you? Or perhaps you're on the Grand Jury? Yup, that's pretty convincing that they haven't shown Salam all the evidence. Really has me worried.

The question is, why do the Taliban ask for evidence?

Because there isn't any evidence that would convince them or their constituency, that's why. And because it delays things, possibly until UBL can mount a second attack somewhere. They only have to convince people like you that the evidence is 'tainted,' who will presume all kinds of nutty stuff about conspiracies and back room deals. What do they have no lose by demanding evidence of what's obvious?

Because if there are then that will certainly undermine their rule.

It hasn't so far. With people willing to believe that the Jews or the CIA attacked the Trade Center for their own reasons what possible evidence would they believe? Nope, they have nothing to worry about on that count, any more than the premies are worried about the evidence presented that Maharaji killed a cyclist and had someone else take the wrap. Well, actually Mike Dettmers has a lot more credibility with premies than any judge, witness, or scientist in the US would have with the Taliban, and we're sure not going to let *them* be the judges or hold the trial. That would be like putting Stalin in charge of the Library of Congress.

So where is the evidence?

Apart from what's already been presented, and the possible arbitrage evidence they're digging up on someone selling airline stocks short (circumstancial, but not 'speculative') it's mostly in a hole in lower Manhattan called 'the pit.'

I don't get you guys. You parrot mass murderers and perverts like Saddam Hussein and Bin Laden over a duly chosen administration in the US (I won't say elected, but at least they got damn close to half the vote) and then think you're being 'objective.' You have a long way to go before you can claim that mantle. Just because you can say it (due mostly to the Bill of Rights, BTW) doesn't mean it's sane or logical.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:12:18 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: OT More Bin Laden garbage
Message:
Rick:

I am concerned that the Bush group apparently won't negotiate with the Taliban, since it seems clear to me that we have the upper hand and that they are moving in our direction. We can, for instance, use their own position as a wedge or lever to move them further in our direction. They don't seem very sophisticated negotiators, and I'm concerned that Bush isn't either. It would certainly be prudent to get the Taliban out of the way with as little cost to us as possible, since I think our primary objective ought to be Saddam. I've used the anology of climbing a precipice, and am just a little concerned about Bush's rock climbing prowess.

But there may be other reasons we know nothing about. A fear for instance of a biological weapon that may have been swiped from us, or (worse yet) that's a holdover from the CIA Mujahadeen era.

Finally, they may want a war because they think they can win it and need it to inspire the country for further action against terrorism. Not out of the question. Sure, we gave them this sophisticated infrastructure, but the downside for them is that we therefore know all about it (information the Russians never had).

As for why they don't want to show evidence to us? I think they fear that puts us in a 'criminal justice' mode, and they may fear where that leads; a slippery slope. Suppose there is evidence that Bin Laden was not involved (not very likely to be valid, but it would be embarassing). I think they see lots of downside, and not much up. I don't think criminal justice is the way we ought to approach this. Why don't we see the evidence? I think we will. It takes awhile to put it together. They've suggested, for instance, that some of the passports used by the hijackers may have been stolen and that the people identified my, in fact, not be the hijackers at all. Eyewitnesses should be able to resolve that though.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:28:54 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: OT More Bin Laden garbage
Message:
Hi Scott,
It seems particularly questionable that so early in this process, we're unwilling to talk to the Taliban. After all, this is supposed to take years. We can always take whatever action we were on our way to, if the negotiations fail.

I can see why there would be reluctance to refer to this as a criminal investigation, and why the U.S. doesn't want to spell out its investigation of Bin Laden in legal terms. But to completely avoid giving any specific information just encourages Americans to continue not thinking and not asking questions and not questioning authority. I find myself completely convinced Bin Laden was the mastermind of this just because it's been repeated so often.

When will we see the evidence? After we blow them to bits?

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 00:58:13 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: OT More Bin Laden garbage
Message:
Rick:

Another possibility. We don't know what military action is planned, and neither does Bin Laden. Neither does... Saddam. Better that way?

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:29:39 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Gen Colin Powell
Message:
In an interview with the BBC tonight said they have both intelligence source evidence and evidence that would stand up in a US court of Law.

He wouldn't or couldn't reveal any of this evidence. It would make it easier for countries such as Pakistan if the evidence was made public.
I suppose there are many possibilities for not revealing the evidence to the taleban. It would compromise intelligence sources? They haven't finished compiling it? There isn't any solid evidence? Who knows?...it's war now....don't want to bother with such trifling matters like informing the public haha.

Colin Powell seems ok though. From what I can gather his State Dept is the reasonable voice whispering in Bushs' ear whereas the Pentagon is more hawkish.He had to respond to a Pentagon underling official who stated that ANY or ALL type of weaponery would be used. Powell said he can't see nukes being needed to fight the terrorists.

Secrecy is worse in the UK I think. The foreign secretary gets really grilled by various journalists and he just politely says 'I don't really want to answer that at this stage' or 'You can't expect me to answer that on Newsnight' or 'Well , this is something you'll find out about when the PM makes a statement about it' Why he didn't just say ' Hey guys, I've stopped giving interviews now....so don't waste your breath.'

It was interesting to hear the interviews with some of the 2 million or so Afghan refugees in Pakistan. Seeing the faces of the hungry, bewildered, innocent children made you hope beyond hope that their compatriots in Afghanistan would be safe from bombs in the next few weeks/months. The Afghanis were all hoping that the taleban would be precisely targeted but ordinary people would be spared even more suffering.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:17:44 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Gen Colin Powell
Message:
The tricky part is that the U.S. has evidence against Bin Laden for the '98 embassy bombings that are contained in an indictment already known to the public. Do you know if Powell indicated specifically that the evidence the U.S. has on Bin Laden that would hold up in court is for the September 11 incidents?

Secrecy may be worse in the UK, but the UK isn't so arrogant about how 'free' it is.

I was able to hear a small portion of the BBC interview with Powell that was on their web site. The interviewer was more effective than those in America.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:47:59 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Gen Colin Powell
Message:
Hmmm I was pretty certain he was asked about and responding to Sep 11 specifically , Rick.

Yeah the interviewer was Jeremy Paxman ...often referred to as the 'rottweiler'. In comparison to how he treats some Brit politicians , he really had his kidgloves on for General Powell.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 17:09:02 (EDT)
From: SC (posted on LG)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What does Maharaji say about Masters?
Message:
MASTERS AREN'T ROBOTS'

'There are people who have information about all the masters that have been. Academic, encyclopedic knowledge. How does that help you with the one you need now? It doesn't. There are people who say, 'This is what a master should be.' Even if they looked at their information, they would realize every master was different. Why shouldn't they be different? Why should they be all like robots? There were masters who had a beard, there were masters who didn't have a beard. There were masters who wore saffron, there were masters who didn't wear saffron. There were masters who wrote poems and songs. And there were masters who said, 'I'm not even going to speak. I'm going to be quiet.' There were masters who said, 'Come here.' And there were masters who said, 'Try to find me.'
If you have a family of eight kids, you know that no two are alike. All eight will be completely different. They were raised the same way, in the same house. Fed the same food. Everybody yelled the same way. And they all turn out differently. But when it comes to a master, people say, 'No. This is how a master should be.' It doesn't work like that.'

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Johor Bahru, 7th April 1999

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 01:20:27 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: SC (posted on LG)
Subject: Re: What does Maharaji say about Masters?
Message:
SC,

Execuse me, but Maharaji is a dill weed, he doesn't know nothin about anythin, so when he says somethin about somethin I go back and read this statement from the begining,

sorry,

Salam

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:18:39 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: dalilswami@freeatlast.com
To: SC (posted on LG)
Subject: miragey = massabaiter; only talks about himself
Message:
marjoe's 'massa' is a spoon-fed bhakti voodoo concept manipulated for his own personal materialist and ego empowerment.

In point of fact: Please ask miragey to speak of the existence of other current living Masters - or the patent subjective relativity of the term 'Perfect Master', or the perfection of the massa himself 'who must be perfect, too' or he is 'not a true saint or master' [according to the person formerly known as Guru Maharaj ji]. Like a revivalist preacher, he refers to dead guys [just like udder cults and religions defer to scriptures and dead massas], but he never acknowledges other living teachers, other voices - except himself, of course.

miragey sic elanvital = a self-serving cash-cow idolatrous pyramid fast-food yoga franchise. + add in a few mutant lobotomized cult humaniod 'subhuman' fecal 'idiot' trolls trespassing with demented cult terrorist megalomaniacal and facetious intent and then like ein kinder dey routinely go pusillanimously crying wolf and pleading goody2shoes.org to der frauficker@pedophilesRusrugu.org.

verily, some deluded phlegmies R Robots:
btw, who gives a rat's ass what margy says about massas, you stupid conniving slave-dog lap-puppy?!! hahahaha Hey, emancipation already happened, ya dufus mutt. hehehe

PS 'Referring to you as' ...'stupid conniving' ...'is about as kind as anyone could be in describing you. It would not be most people's first choice, I'd wager.' indeed, 'twas a kindness...

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:24:35 (EDT)
From: such
Email: banana@freeatlast.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: repost:On dogs, collars, and chains
Message:
Q: Is it true that if for some reason the disciple leaves the Master, that the Guru will never desert the disciple?

A:'If he is a disciple. And you don't become a disciple just by taking Knowledge. You become a disciple when you do meditation on it. If you are doing meditation, you can't be away. Dog's chain -- dog wants to go there, he is free to go there. When he sees him there, master does like that (pulls on chain). So you can be -- that is just if you are doing meditation regularly. See, dog thinks that 'Yes, I am free. Now I can run.' He runs, but chain is there; master pulls. Yes?' - Prem Rawat aka Maharaji

'Servant or Slave? - The servant is his Master's dog!' - Shri Hans ji Maharaj, from his book Hans Yog Prakash

See, to maharaji and his family premies [aka disciples] are subhuman -- dogs.

Do you remember miragey's public discourse in the mid-1990s about his dog messing up his lawn on the estate of the Malibu mansion, and how 'stupid' dogs are to miragey? [He even did a thilly lil' pantomime, mocking his own poor dog.] Clearly, da Rawats hold premies at that same bestial level of esteem [or lack thereof]. Now, are the Rawat gurus, er massas, correct in their imperial assumption that people who follow, trust, and believe in them are stupid dogs, their slaves/servants, perhaps?

hmmm. dat's food fer thought... fer sure!

To all lurking premies + aspirants: Take off the doggie collars. Then, you won't get yer chain pulled! Without that doggie collar and those chains, you Are Free. No earthly massa can control you.

Miragey wants you to think there is no escape from da dog warden and massa's pound, and that if you breathe in consciousness you are under his power or voodoo spell -- well, that's blatant superstitious ladus, my dear brothers and sisters. We weren't born with chains or dog collars on, after all.

The only chain we carry within is the chain of that moving breath of life, that spiritus [Latin for 'breath'] that gift from da universal energy operating all existence -- unless we become weak, seduced, or choose to be enslaved in our own minds to some earthly human power.

So, breathe Freely, my friends. That breath consciousness, that spiritus is ours, not the property of any other deluded person's to manipulate or lay claim upon. For anyone to even imply, let alone assert, that they control others when they breathe or look and listen within themselves is very very sick, indeed.

WE ARE FREE! So, Please Wake up, dear premies and aspirants from da incultcated dream. Take dat power and da mental reins of yer life back. Trust within yerself, not the brainwashing and da mind-numbing external hypnotic suggestions of da voice of a self-proclaimed massa. We were not born 2B slaves -- but FREE!!

Yep, dere's no place like om, dere's no place like om,dere's no place like om,dere's no place like Home. hehehe [om, i.e. an operating mentality]

lotsa love, und
Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 23:05:24 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: repost:On dogs, collars, and chains
Message:
Someone once gave the anology of kids in day care centers being like piglets in a pig pen. And we all know that most chickens are raised in these high rise buildings, where they never see the sun, and never get to play, and live their entire lives in cages. But the good news is that they also have free range chickens!

I wasn't raised in a day care center. I've always been allowed to go where I wanted, so in effect I'm a free range 'dog.'

So, the moral of the story is, no matter what you are, be free range!

Peace and Alpo!

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:49:19 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: + let's not forget those heroic fire dogs in NYC [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 18:06:34 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SC (posted on LG)
Subject: And the devotees/students??
Message:
A quote from Rick Ross site - in regards to a man's story of his experience with Landmark Forum and his helping his daughter get rid of her 'training':
And no I don't think I'm ending the thread just because the guy mentioned Nazi Germany.
======================begin========================================
'They want to replace your individual values, experiences, morals with their values, experiences and morals. Your way of looking at the world with their way of looking at the world. Your mind with their mind.'

'Sure, it all seems benign. But look at what's happening just in this country. The malicious militias. Farrakhan and all his hatred. All these little cults who 'know the way' the rest of us should follow. Hitler just wanted to unify Germany and protect German people from the Jews.'

'True believers are true believers, and they can all be dangerous when push comes to shove.'

---
Walter Plywaski quoted from
Westword / April 18-24, 1996
By Steve Jackson

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 02:03:23 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Thank you Selene!
Message:
I just copied the last part to post, but you posted the last part of it. :) I still think that the part just before was important, so I'm going to post my 'copy':

One section of The Forum he attended, Plywaski says, was a 'fear session' during which participants were asked to close their eyes and imagine that the person sitting next to them wanted to kill them. 'Then it was all the people around them,' he says. 'That brought on the first moans and cries. Then it was all the people in the room wanted to kill them. There were screams.

'By the end, everyone in the world wanted to kill us. I cheated and opened my eyes. There were people writhing on the floor, kicking and screaming...just like at the old tent revival meetings. And what is the purpose in either instance except to instill fear so that you can control them…'Only Jay-sus can save you'…'Only Landmark can give you heaven on earth.''

'They want to replace your individual values, experiences, morals with their values, experiences and morals. Your way of looking at the world with their way of looking at the world. Your mind with their mind.'

'Sure, it all seems benign. But look at what's happening just in this country. The malicious militias. Farrakhan and all his hatred. All
these little cults who 'know the way' the rest of us should follow. Hitler just wanted to unify Germany and protect German people
from the Jews.'

'True believers are true believers, and they can all be dangerous when push comes to shove.'

.

It took me about an hour to read through that page (with breaks for cheese and crackers). I couldn't believe how much had touched me personally ... wasn't he the 'Primal Scream' guy? I read his books when I was in highschool. In the early eighties I went to a Hunger Project 'whatever' at McGill University. I wish I could remember more details, but they did not answer the questions I asked in a coherent way; I distrusted them, and if I remember well, the 'meeting' fell flat. I wanted to believe that they could do what they said they were doing, but their answers to my questions told me that they were full of hot air, even though I somehow still felt selfish not to 'give' whatever at the time (oh the guilt trips! ;). It is a strange feeling for me to go back to that time in my mind and feel reassured that I was not a 'bad' human being because I did not 'buy' the 'package' that they were trying to 'sell' me.

And the 'Hunger Project' won the 'Mahatma Ghandi Award'?!!! (as if he set it up!!!!) No wonder some people in North America believe that they are 'good', and helping the 'poor, underpriveledged people of the world' through totally BS organizations ... and these 'benevolent' organizations are legion. I have 'given' in other ways until it almost destroyed me, and what 'good' could I have done/do if that had happened? It can't 'work' like this. So close yet, fortunately, so far. It is all the same 'movie' (an expression I use to keep perspective), isn't it? As I have said for over 20 years, 'If it's true on one plane, it's true on all.'

I'm sure I have more to say to you, but we'll be in touch soon, Selene!

Much love,

Anna

(and do you remember posting at AG a few months ago about major US military purchases that you picked up on somehow through the web that made you nervous? And let's not think about Rev. Moon, the 'Christian Right' and the Bushes now.)

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 02:45:03 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Thank you Selene!
Message:
I was trying to go somewhere and went here by butter-fingered mousing, and it seemed relevant ... so ...

The Birth of Conversion:
Brainwashing in Christian Revivalism in 1735.

Conversion is a 'nice' word for brainwashing...and any study of brainwashing has to begin with a study of Christian revivalism in
eighteenth century America. Apparently, Jonathan Edwards accidentally discovered the techniques during a religious crusade in 1735
in Northampton, Massachusetts. By inducing guilt and acute apprehension and by increasing the tension, the 'sinners' attending his
revival meetings would break down and completely submit. Technically, what Edwards was doing was creating conditions that wipe the
brain slate clean so that the mind accepts new programming. The problem was that the new input was negative. He would tell them,
'You're a sinner! You're destined for hell!'

As a result, one person committed suicide and another attempted suicide. And the neighbors of the suicidal converts related that
they, too, were affected so deeply that, although they had found 'eternal salvation,' they were obsessed with a diabolical temptation
to end their own lives.

Once a preacher, cult leader, manipulator or authority figure creates the brain phase to wipe the brain-slate clean, his subjects are
wide open. New input, in the form of suggestion, can be substituted for their previous ideas. Because Edwards didn't turn his
message positive until the end of the revival, many accepted the negative suggestions and acted, or desired to act, upon them.

Charles J. >
[ The Birth of Conversion ]

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:49:24 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: good link and very OT (snicker)
Message:
When I read that man's story it just hit me how well he described what I had been trying to say since 98 when I left the footsies.
Premies say we only talk about the old days but I have seen what the new wrapping paper hides. Same old shit but repressed (condensed? ha). Just look at the online disintegration that we all got to read today. Like watching the wicked witch of the west melting melting melting. And it made me remember why I still care about this issue.
They (Landmark) did a real number on our workplace. It was so strange to watch it happen and not do anything. I am not sure if I would if it happened today. Cultweasels can start their own 'private' human motivation biz and so what if they give much of the proceeds back to their hive? Is that illegal?
It's creepy.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:48:00 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Good point! On Topic (snicker)
Message:
The more you see it, the more you see it ... and it is very creepy, on a lot of levels and in far too many places. I've begun to see how pervasive this stuff is ... the more I learn the more I see how many times I have been solicited to join a cult ... so close, yet fortunately for me, so far. And they all seem to be able to operate within the 'law'.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:58:20 (EDT)
From: ps
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: and back ON TOPIC ;)
Message:
Landmark Education Corporation is listed on the CNN page as having been one of the tenants of the WTC, 51st floor I believe.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:56:14 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: ps
Subject: Re: and back OFF TOPIC ;)
Message:
Love your sense of humour, and glad you are keeping it! And I forgot to say that I remembered your posts about Landmark arriving at the place where you work - that wasn't funny at all. Did many get sucked in? I've got to get to bed soon. I'm still tired from last night's cleaning-the-fridge marathon, and I was cooking half of the day today.

Big hugs!

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:28:11 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: thanks but they really were
Message:
Housed at the World Trade Center I mean. So that part was not meant to be a joke.
but thanks for talking, I'm going to go read and hide I'm exhausted.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 22:41:36 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: thanks but they really were
Message:
I meant about 'on' and 'off' topic - I knew that wasn't a joke. Sleep well - I just spent to long trying to find out if Leonard Cohen was ever into Sufism and didn't find much at all.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 19:13:57 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: You, genious...;())
Message:
I wonder if the devoted premies as SC can even begin to question their real
motives posting stuff like that? Do they need reassurance that they are right
needing a master? Oh DOGS!

Do they allow themselves to reason or they just think enough, little, to maintain
the dream alive at all cost, even if they have to sacrifice their liberty? Do they
consider that maybe, MAYBE they are wrong? Why do they need to maintain
such a blatant lie?

When I was a premie I had no belief system of my own but as what you posted
explains, maharaji had created in my head such a 'perfect' story that to even
doubt, after 26 years of believing it seemed too complicated to consider. I found
myself saying one day that I didn't care who maharaji was at all. Is that insanity
or not? How can a human being fall so deep, down, to the extent of losing touch
of their mental health, welcoming lack of common sense? To be healthy is to
have the capacity to question. To have surrendered to a belief system without
questioning it is not. Perhaps they could get a life?

Putting the master in a pedestal they have lowered themselves....in adoration...
Their radical ideas are so separatist. So unloving. Special my ass!

I thank evreyone again here who helped me open my eyes. Is good to be free.

Hi darling Selene! :(()

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:40:14 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: did you read the article????
Message:
My link goes directly to it.
It's potent. Swap out Landmark for EV, M for Erhart, EST for DLM same head different body?
Harmless, fulfilling life's potential, yeah right. I have a good friend who confided in me a month ago that another close friend has been acting strange and after she gave a lot of details I told her it sounded like the friend had joined a cult. She thought a moment and said, no, she did do Landmark last fall. !!! I don't do that, automaticaly assume behavior change = cult involvement in fact this was the first time but her description of the symptoms was so familiar.

Hope you are doing OK.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:52:46 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I've mentioned it a few times
Message:
in passing, so here are the lyrics to Cohens song.
Better with music mind you. I love the 'cradle of the best and the worst' verse.

DEMOCRACY

t's coming through a hole in the air,
from those nights in Tiananmen Square.
It's coming from the feel
that this ain't exactly real,
or it's real, but it ain't exactly there.
From the wars against disorder,
from the sirens night and day,
from the fires of the homeless,
from the ashes of the gay:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming through a crack in the wall;
on a visionary flood of alcohol;
from the staggering account
of the Sermon on the Mount
which I don't pretend to understand at all.
It's coming from the silence
on the dock of the bay,
from the brave, the bold, the battered
heart of Chevrolet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the sorrow in the street,
the holy places where the races meet;
from the homicidal bitchin'
that goes down in every kitchen
to determine who will serve and who will eat.
From the wells of disappointment
where the women kneel to pray
for the grace of God in the desert here
and the desert far away:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

It's coming to America first,
the cradle of the best and of the worst.
It's here they got the range
and the machinery for change
and it's here they got the spiritual thirst.
It's here the family's broken
and it's here the lonely say
that the heart has got to open
in a fundamental way:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the women and the men.
O baby, we'll be making love again.
We'll be going down so deep
the river's going to weep,
and the mountain's going to shout Amen!
It's coming like the tidal flood
beneath the lunar sway,
imperial, mysterious,
in amorous array:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on
O mighty ship of state !
To the shores of Need
Past the reeds of greed
Through the squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene.
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight,
getting lost in that hopeless little screen.
But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
that Time cannot decay,
I'm junk but I'm still holding up
this little wild bouquet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 22:47:24 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Just curious ...
Message:
You know that Leonard Cohen is a Montrealer, right? ;)

Thanks for posting this, Dermot. (and all the other contributions to the 'song'. Hello and hugs! :)

Anna

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 06:14:16 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Just curious ...
Message:
Hi Stonor

Yep I did know he was a Montrealer ! .....I think now he's living near LA in a buddhist community (?)

Cheers Stonor!

Dermot ;)

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:03:20 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Yes ... but ...
Message:
wasn't he a Sufi before that, and something or other else before that, too, I think! ;)

Cheers to you too, Dermot!

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:42:26 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Yes ... but ...
Message:
Well I didn't know about the sufism etc ........I was always under the impression (and I mean impression) that he was sort of non-affiliated prior to his recent Buddhism.

His writing was often seeped in Jewish and Biblical symbolism, I thought.

Are you bi-ligual?

Cioa

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 21:56:49 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Yes ... but ...
Message:
The something or other else before that was a joke - I was referring to the point that he was, of course, Jewish, originally. I'm not absolutely sure about the Sufism, but I thought I'd heard that at some point. He also had Christian references ... 'Jesus was a sailor, when walked upon the water' etc. I guess I've been pretty far flung myself, but never settled down at all - always looking for the common threads running through it all.

Yes, I'm fairly bilingual, and also speak some Spanish too. How about you?

Hasta luego!

Anna

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 19:37:15 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: I've mentioned it a few times
Message:
Dear Dermont,
Thanks.
'I love the country but I can't stand the scene.'
That's it!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:48:36 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hi Robyn
Message:
Thanks to yo to .....BTW do you ever lose your temper or get into big disruptive arguments with people?

Didn't think so :)

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 23:25:09 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Hi Robyn
Message:
Dear Dermont,
Hi, :) I've stepped up the the plate with Jim a couple times, until I got it right. :) Grew up with to much of it (I was the 'peace maker' in my dysfunctional family :) and would rather just get things out in the air, often with emotion but not vengence, and deal with them openly.
In the first days after the 11th I was shocked and then angry and wanted someone to blame and punish for this but to act on that first reaction is childish, what a teenager would do. I rather set with it and ride out the emotion and try to find a way to face this without putting other innocent people through what just happend to us. I don't see how we can knowing how much this has hurt us.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:07:47 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Hi Robyn
Message:
There have been a lot of IRA bombings this side of the pond but obviously not with such a large loss of life in one time. However Manchester city centre was blown to bits a few years ago (though it's all been rebuilt I think) and the famous Birmingham pub bombing where a whole pub load of people were blown to bits. Countless other atrocities too.

The trouble though is Irish people in England were ostracised and victimised as a result plus lots of innocent people were jailed for decades because (really) of public pressure to find SOMEONE, ANYONE to blame. The anger and need(?) for retribution is toally understandble. Problem is it's usually innocents who kop the backlash.

The more I find out about the vast majority of ordinary Afghanis, the more I really really sympathise with them. I fear though they'll suffer even more as 'collateral damage' whilst the taliban leaders will escape justice. I could be wrong.

...........Yeah I'm the next to youngest of 5 boys and was often arguing and fighting with my hot-headed bros !!

Cheers Robyn

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:00:07 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Yes, Robyn
Message:
I love the country but I can't stand the scene.
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight,
getting lost in that hopeless little screen.
But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
that Time cannot decay,
I'm junk but I'm still holding up
this little wild bouquet

Love to you, girlfriend -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 19:24:16 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Amazing lyrics - thanks
Message:
The songs I keep thinking of are 'With God on Our Side' and 'Brother's Keeper' and "My Blood) - all in versions sung by the Neville Brothers.

Thanks again.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:55:13 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: C'mon then Katie
Message:
This is a lyric thread ! Never heard of 'My blood'.....'brothers keeper' vaguely rings a bell.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:45:55 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Couldn't find them
Message:
I don't have the original CD, which did have the lyrics. And the actual songs are far more effective than the lyrics alone.

The name of the CD is 'Brother's Keeper' by the Neville Brothers (including Aaron Neville) - the songs are 'Brother's Keeper' and 'My Blood'. They also did a very good cover of 'With God on Our Side' (sung by Aaron Neville) on a CD called 'Yellow Moon'.

Thanks for posting 'With God on Our Side', btw.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 13:44:37 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Okey Doke, Katie [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 19:36:18 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: With God on our side.
Message:
Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.

Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.

Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.

Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.

When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.

I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.

But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.

In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.

So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:00:19 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: With God on our side.
Message:
Dermot, Thanks for this -- the lyrics have been in my head for days and I was planning to look for them on the net this evening.

Best,
Susan

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:52:19 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Hi Suedoula
Message:
You're welcome.

Now just sing along with me......'oh my name it is nothing ....'

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:08:30 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A FBI AGENT just KILLED IN DETROIT
Message:
few minutes a go, in the Mc Namara building in downtown.

I was on the phone with an investigator of the housing commission who work on the same building and he said he had to go, that they were evacuating the building.

I thought he was BSing me, because he didn't want to talk with me, but it was true.

Detroit is an area with a large number of Arabs. So, is touching home...I live 25 minutes from there.... :(

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:02:18 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Silvia, you must be upset :(
Message:
I am really depressed today myself, but email me if you like.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:18:38 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: same here Silvia
Message:
If I can get away this evening I'll call.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:57:41 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: here's the story
Message:
http://wire.ap.org/?FRONTID=HOME&SITE=MIDTN&enter=Go
[ guard killed ]
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:23:29 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: I AM SO SAD!
Message:
But thanks for keeping us up with the news Sylvia.

Love to you,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 13:55:29 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Holy Cow! It's WW111 on F7
Message:
I wake up from a lovely snooze and pop over here and what's happening? WW111!

Hardly anyone responded to our new arrival, Janice, because they're arguing politics.

Perhaps it's time to take the political discussion to Anything Goes and let this forum go back to fullfilling one of it's main purposes which is to provide a place for old exes to help new exes to exit the cult.

Sure the whole Rawat business seems so petty and sordid compared with what we have all just been through but we will never all agree on politics and the arguments are threatening to chase away some of our best contributors. I enjoy arguing politics too but can we take it to AG?

Now about Bush's speech last night....

Just kidding. I'll meet you on AG for political debates from now on. Gerry is kindly paying for a lot of extra bandwidth for stuff which has no bearing on the forum's stated purpose.

My email is full of letters saying that they won't read or post while the politics goes on.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:27:39 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Yes Pat , where is the man who was going...
Message:
...to bring peace to the world in all this ?

Shit I forgot , it's all our fault for not being surrendered enough.

So he's off the hook , in Malibu , & probably following advice to sell airline stock & buy gold.

There was an interview on BBC tv last night with the father of one of the suspected suicide hijackers. The guy was distraught saying that his son had been a meek & mild type , studious , polite , then he went to Hamburg & ....... fell in with the satguru of death maybe ?

Now that the initial shock is wearing off a bit I do agree that we should get back on target a bit , if possible , on this forum , & maybe try to make sense of why we followed an absolutist tyrant of our own free will.

On a lighter note : the restuarant where my wife works has had terrible bookings recently & it's not due to the food.

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:04:10 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Yes Pat , where is the man who was going...
Message:
Yes, the Peace Bomb that was going to be the last bomb ever dropped.

I saw an interview with Attah's pa but I won't go into detail as it is OT.

Restaurants and hotels in SF are done to 17% of normal. And I won't go into detail ther either as it's also OT. ;)

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 14:34:56 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: sharing bananas vs. kilotons
Message:
naturally healthy, lotsa vitamins, filling, tastes great

vs.

'767 plane represents a kiloton
Physicist Herb Lin calculates the energy
on board (fuel + kinetic energy) a fully
loaded 767 moving at 400 mph is on the
order of a 1,000 tons of TNT, which is
the yield of a typical tactical nuke.
That is the scale of attack that NYC
suffered.'

If terrorism does not stop, I have learned that da ulema and militants among da faithful exes shall declare jihad against duh infidels. infidels' dark crusade is like rancid camel butter - it makes one sick to stomach and causes constipation, then runs.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:15:09 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: such
Subject: I come here to help stop m
Message:
I agree we should move the war / law and order / peace and justice discussion to Anything Goes.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:16:33 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: I come here to help stop m
Message:
Precisly John. The terrorist attack made M and K seem so petty and irrelevant but that's what this forum is for.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 13:10:34 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Afghan War journalist's perspective
Message:
The following commentary from David Kline I find to be very insightful.

Hi Everyone,
I covered the Afgan War as journalist 1979-87.

I'm sure it'll take us all a very long time to come to grips with the full meaning of last week's disaster.

But as someone who covered the war in Afghanistan extensively from 1979-87, and has reported from the Islamic world since 1978, I do have some thoughts that might possibly be helpful in our efforts to understand the nature of the struggle before us.

First, there is the extremely complex and protracted nature of the struggle, one not amenable to easy or simplistic solutions.

It is possible, for example, to take out Bin Laden and Company, although it will not be as easy as Washington might think. But more on that in a minute. The point is, even if we do eliminate
this terrorist, we're still left with several million embittered anti-American Muslims worldwide who comprise the future suicide bomber recruits for the next Bin Laden that comes along.

What do we do about them?

In other words, the struggle is both acute (the shorter term direct military action needed to eradicate Bin Laden) as well as protracted. For in truth we will need to wage a long term
political, moral and philosophical war against Islamic fundamentalism -- indeed, against the scourge of fundamentalism and absolutism of every stripe everywhere in the world.

It is fundamentalism (and its philosophical core, absolutism) that enables otherwise intelligent beings to objectify and slaughter faceless 'others' in the service of some 'greater
cause.' It is fundamentalist religion (whether Christian or Muslim) that is the wellspring of future World Trade Center bombings. It is absolutism -- the sort expressed in a popular
Christian bumper sticker seen recently entitled 'Truth ... Not Tolerance' -- that today represents the greatest threat to humanity everywhere in the world.

We saw the results of Marxist absolutism -- the notion that millions must, if necessary, be slaughtered to advance the cause of the world proletariat. Likewise we saw the results of fascist
absolutism -- the Holocaust and 50 million dead in WW2.

Now we see the fruits of religious fundamentalism both at home and abroad. Thankfully, America's truly deep-rooted democratic and secular traditions -- our 200-year-long separation of church and state -- have prevented religious fundamentalists from doing much damage here in the U.S. Fallwell and company, though they might wish to outlaw 'secular humanism,' will never find more than a very temporary and ephemeral following among Americans.

Would that this were so in the rest of the world, however, where most nations do not have what we might call the 'habits' of democracy, of tolerance, of the ability to let voices that are even considered despicable still have their say in open debate.

So that's the longer term and much more difficult struggle we face. In fact, I think we need nothing short of a modern day 'enlightenment,' a 21st century 'reformation' against the forces
of absolutism and fundamentalism.

We need to wage political and educational campaigns around the world akin to those we waged in post WW2 Europe against the then-ascendant communist parties. We eventually won the moral and philosophical war against communism, mainly because of its own intrinsic 'wrongness,' but also because we fought resolutely on the educational, political and philosophical front against it.

Please note that I am NOT talking about McCarthyism or some modern version of anti-Islamic 'red-baiting.' I am talking about serious educational work to expose the most serious danger facing humanity today.

In fact, the most difficult part of this effort for America's leaders may be this: We also need to honestly and frankly admit some errors in our own foreign policy that have neglected the
legitimate aspirations of Islamic peoples for freedom and democracy. We must support, not oppose, democratic reform movements in authoritarian Arab nations. We need to diffuse the
virulent anti-Americanism that exists in much of the Middle East.

In short, we need to isolate the extremist fundamentalists and win over (or at least neutralize the anti-American sentiments of) the broader Islamic masses worldwide.

I don't say it will be easy. But it cannot be avoided -- not if we want to root out the soil from which future suicide bombers and Bin Ladens will rise. It may take a generation or more to achieve success. But there it is. We have no other choice. We must confront fundamentalism and absolutism with all the wisdom and forcefulness in our hearts and minds -- and we must do so in
every sphere of public and private life.

A few words now about the necessary short term struggle to kill Bin Laden and crew. And I do mean kill. In the same spirit with which decent men and women fought to the death against Hitler, we can offer no quarter to Bin Laden. He and his direct supporters must be killed -- executed. With or without trial is (to my mind) of little consequence.

But you can't just drop some paratroopers disguised in Turbans over the Afghan border. I spent many many months in Afghan war zones being hunted by Russian special forces units, and they
never came close to capturing (let alone locating) the leading Afghan resistance fighters I traveled with. Hence they had to content themselves with the mass slaughter of Afghan villagers.

Bin Laden is likely moving about the Afghan countryside today in a group of no more than 15-20 armed men -- but also never more than half-a-day's fast march from larger platoons of supporters.
So how can he be spotted? Where is the real human intelligence that can locate him and help us hunt him down?

It lies in the surviving leaders of the true Afghan resistance, with whom we must strike an alliance to go after not only Bin Laden but also the illegitimate Taliban rulers of Afghanistan.

For make no mistake, the Taliban do not represent the Afghans, who have no previous history of fanaticism or rule by clergy. In fact, it was only because of the wholesale destruction by the
Soviets of nearly all social institutions in Afghanistan -- including the systematic KGB assassination of so many members of the Afghan intelligentia that it produced a statistical decline in the Afghan literacy rate -- that the Taliban came to power in 1977. Financed by Saudi and Pakistani extremists, the Taliban came from outside the country and simply filled the vacumn of leadership created by 20 years of anti-Soviet warfare.

Did you know that in the 2nd great British-Afghan War in the late 19th century, a woman by the name of Malalai led an army of Afghan tribesmen to decisive victory against the British Imperial
Army after her husband fell in battle? This is a fact once celebrated in Afghan culture (at least in some circles), although no Taliban would ever admit to it (or probably even know about it) today. I mention this only to emphasize that the Taliban have nothing to do with true Afghan culture and attitudes.

Anyway, if we ally with true Afghans -- the surviving leaders of Massoud Ahmed Shah's Northern Alliance (sadly, Massoud died Saturday from wounds received in a not-coincidental Taliban
assassination attempt the day before the WTC bombings), then we will eventually eliminate Bin Laden and his Taliban protectors.

And then, my friends, in every school and church and political institution across the globe, I hope we will all get down to the longer-term business of waging protracted moral, philosophical and political war against absolutism and religious fundamentalism in all its virulent and ugly forms.

God help us if we don't.

David Kline

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:10:05 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Afghan War journalist's perspective
Message:
But why can't we just round 'em up, load 'em in a space shuttle and send them to the moon with limited oxygen supply? They can just sit there, watching this little marbled ball spin round and round, and get some cosmic consciousness. If they can't, then they can terrorize each other all they want with moon rocks.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 14:04:24 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Afghan War journalist's perspective
Message:
Richard:

Thanks. As I've said, it's a war of liberalism vs. 'The Right' (or what Kline calls Absolutism). I'm only concerned that we obtain an adequate appreciation for liberalism, it's history and essential tenets. Sadly, I think many of us are wandering in the wilderness about that.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 12:56:04 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Voting with my feet
Message:
I've emailed Hotboards asking how I can down grade the Forum to the free version. I'm not going to pay for this anymore with maniacs like Scott Talkington, SC and all the rest of the pond scum. Ex-Premies excluded of course.

If I can't do that, I'll close up shop. Then anyone can create a new board and if you use the name 'gl' as the board name, no one will have to change their bookmarks to find it.

Alternately, I could close it myself and start up a free board under the same name and email the password to whomever wants it (with reservations, of course.)

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:03:45 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: FA Veto == Tyrrany
Message:

I've emailed Hotboards asking how I can down grade the Forum to the free version. I'm not going to pay for this anymore with maniacs like Scott Talkington, SC and all the rest of the pond scum. Ex-Premies excluded of course.

If I can't do that, I'll close up shop. Then anyone can create a new board and if you use the name 'gl' as the board name, no one will have to change their bookmarks to find it.

Alternately, I could close it myself and start up a free board under the same name and email the password to whomever wants it (with reservations, of course.)


---

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. Spare
me the martyr trip. You have a responsibility. Live up to
it, or make room for someone who can.

Scott is clearly an ex-premie, and a responsible
correspondent. Just because you don't like his point of
view, or the amount of kilobytes he's capable of typing
during a calendar month, is no excuse to censor him.

What is wrong with you? I'm really *very* angry. I've had
it with the petty dictators in my life. You have no right to
be an FA with that attitude. We'd all be better off closing
the forum down, than to tolerate such irresponsible
administration of the place.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:43:20 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Spare me the banalities, please...
Message:
and the lecture. Thanks
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Date: Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 03:04:10 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: crap [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 19:55:21 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: :: pond scum are people too ::
Message:
I've emailed Hotboards asking how I can down grade the Forum to the free version. I'm not going to pay for this anymore with maniacs like Scott Talkington, SC and all the rest of the pond scum. Ex-Premies excluded of course.

If I can't do that, I'll close up shop. Then anyone can create a new board and if you use the name 'gl' as the board name, no one will have to change their bookmarks to find it.

Alternately, I could close it myself and start up a free board under the same name and email the password to whomever wants it (with reservations, of course.)

---

Any forum that excludes the likes of Scott T has such serious
flaws in its ideology that I think them unrecoverable.

If he goes, I go.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:53:07 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: I have to admit
Message:
I see **no** connection with ScottT posts and ScumCrud the ultimate premie.

Although I do wish a couple of the ongoing 'reporters' would understand that we are capable of surfing the net and finding our own info regarding the Sept. 11th incident and followups. I wouldn't mention it except it seems like it will never end. I have appreciated many of the links to other countries media, etc. OK! We have google. And our own friends and connecitons and fact finding skills.
OH well flame away whoever I just felt like saying it.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:27:41 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I must confess
Message:
I must confess that I have no interest in discussing Maharaji any more and the only reason I read and posted here recently was because of the tragic events happening in America.

The information and links posted here about these events has been far superior to any other forums I have read, although I admit I haven't looked very far.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:48:08 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: I must confess that I agree with you, Sir Dave
Message:
I don't want to drag the forum OT - but where else to go? And, as you say, we know each other - and it's good to talk to intelligent and compassionate people from all over the world.

Love to you,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 14:51:25 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: I must confess that I agree with you, Katie
Message:
it is like we're a community or something
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:59:32 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: I must confess that I agree with you, Katie
Message:
Some of us are sick of talking about Miragey. I think it's a sign of health. If someone wants to start a Miragey thread, they can go for it. I'm sure many of us will jump on.

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:53:36 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Thanks, Roger
Message:
I feel that way too - even though I'll only post (well sorta) OT. I really appreciate the intelligent posts here - even the ones I don't agree with.

Hope you are OK.
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 16:17:14 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I agree with me
Message:
Because I *do* know some of the people :)
Lots of love from da Village Idiot.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 19:56:50 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I hear you, Selene
Message:
But, actually, some of the people here have surprised me - not by their immediate responses, but by their responses after they have though about it for a while.

Also, don't want to invade AG! I know you'll appreciate that. ]

This has been very hard for me - and I need to talk about it. The people where I work do not want to talk, and that's hard for me. So I have appreciated the opportunity to talk here.

Love to you,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 20:09:39 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: I hear you, Selene
Message:
Why would I care what someone posts on AG?
I don't 'think I own the place', although a recent troll made that very claim but I think that person is insane.
Enjoy the dialog.
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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:11:19 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: I agree with me
Message:
yeah, same to you! ;)

Don't ya just love this life sometimes? Like when you're working and working and working day and night and on the weekends and they're having a war outside? Go ahead, make my day.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 18:35:18 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I must confess
Message:
I've been showing up (half the battle right?) Got more done than lots, less than others. Am still in my nightie today, watching a matinee about Ireland.
But you are right! What they doin distracting me with this war crap?
I'm movin back to Ireland where it's safe.

Selene Village Idiot and iconoclast

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:35:07 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: I must repent
Message:
And Maha is the ultimate bore. But this is what an ex premie forum is about at least a tiny little bit, no?
Since you are here tell me what connection do you see between SC and ScottT's posts? That was my main point.
I'm glad you enjoy the discussions because they are going to go on.
And the patterns have emerged as to who thinks what. So good we know that now. I would prefer a report of interesting links that we aren't normally informed about and less bickering over ideals and preferences. Hell I may be wrong some of these people could solve the world's problems and then I'll be sorry.
In fact I'm already sorry for having the gawd awful nerve to have an opinion. of all things to do on this forum!!
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:51:40 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I must go to bed
Message:
I can't see any connection between Scott T and SC. But then I only read Scott's posts about the terrorism. Maybe they had an argument that I didn't read. Maybe Gerry's wrong.

I've changed my mind about George W since September the 11th. He's a good mouthpiece and I was impressed by his speech last night. I know he didn't write most of it but he delivered it very well and actually looked statesmanlike.

I've been happy to see this forum veer away from all things Maharaji and glad that there were no complaints about that. I ''know'' some of the people here and it's easy to read and write here because of that.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:59:24 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: I have to admit
Message:
Flaaaaaaaame burn burn burn ......heat be upon you .....

Hi Selene :)

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 21:01:31 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: whew glad that's over with
Message:
Now I can relax :)
Hi back at ya Dermot.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 20:25:28 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: We're talking ideology?
Message:
Chill out. Nobody but cultweasels are blocked.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:33:05 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: quartus@postmaster.co.uk
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Voting with my feet
Message:
OK, how much would make a difference?

email me, OK?

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:24:30 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Eh?
Message:
Scott T a maniac??? If he's a maniac then I'm bin Laden.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 13:30:03 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Not to say...
Message:
I am still of the opinion that a great deal of the emotional response that's going on is a direct result of the fact that there are about 6300 bodies under the rubble that have yet to be recovered. What we are seeing is misdirected rage, but rage under the circumstances is precisely what we ought to expect. I'm not ever going to take it personally that you called me 'pond scum.' Instead, I'll thank you for helping us get this out in the open.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 13:10:28 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: So you're the piece of SHIT
Message:
who re-wrote my post? Well, to quote you..

'you fucking cunt'

You better run with your flat little feet you twisted low life coward.

That is the dirtiest most scurillous trick anyone as acting FA can pull.

You behaved normally for a few weeks. So it got to be too much work keeping that rabid sicko in your head under leash did it?

Yup, and out pops rabidgerry we all know so well. Writing new text in someone else's message? GOLD MEDAL SCUMBAG.

I'm glad to be an excuse to rid any forum of the likes of you.

Yea, well you better run and you better run fast...

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:51:32 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: What are you on about, Roupell?
Message:
What's your problem? I can't help it if you have a split personality. Maybe you slipped into one of your alter egos. One no one ever met before. That's my best guess as to what happened to your post.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:12:36 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: David Roupel has no right here
Message:
David Roupel, it is you who are in deep water and do not know it.

Your cyber-stalking of Abie will haunt you even more than your absurd CAC-antics.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 10:54:55 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Ok you smarmy shit stirrer
Message:
lay it on the table big boy.

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU ON ABOUT?

You are an unbelievably vindictive piece of shit. You have a problemn with me? Then fucking come out with it. Don't bring any other little cyber victim into the game, don't bring the dark dim past into this...be honest , what is you fucking problem Mr John 'never done anything' Tucker?

For your information, Abi Bray and I made up many months ago and have MOVED on from that particular period in our lives. I want to know WHY YOU ,little Johnny, finds it impossible to let go, move on and try to live HERE and NOW like the rest of us?

Do You See how wierd you look? All participants in the war have made peace and left the scene and there you are.. little Johnny Tucker boy, still running around the battle ground on your own screaming obscenities and firing your pop gun all over the place while we're trying to make hay in the same fields.

You hate cerise? Ok, what's your problem? Spell it out. You hate SC, ok, spell it out joker. Your constant barrage of dirty, sick insinuations based on your sad past is beginning to piss me off.
Do you ever take anyone as they are in front of you NOW or do you have a little box with everyone cast forever as stone pieces in your empty cavenous heart?
You really are truly pathetic.

So Mr Never Been an anybody...

PUT UP OR SHUT THE FUCK UP

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 13:07:25 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Just keep your socks on.
Message:
I've emailed Hotboards asking how I can down grade the Forum to the free version. I'm not going to pay for this anymore with maniacs like Scott Talkington, SC and all the rest of the pond scum. Ex-Premies excluded of course.

If I can't do that, I'll close up shop. Then anyone can create a new board and if you use the name 'gl' as the board name, no one will have to change their bookmarks to find it.

Alternately, I could close it myself and start up a free board under the same name and email the password to whomever wants it (with reservations, of course.)


---

Maniac? Pond scum? I'll just let Jim respond to this. Over and out.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 12:51:34 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Afghan's on America's side
Message:
An invasion of Afghanistan by USA and UK forces will be very popular with one group of Afghans. See above link.
[ Hoping to avenge their leader's murder ]
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 11:35:38 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I came here to say......
Message:
that maharaji must have his head stuck so far up his rear that he needs a proctologist to fill his cavities. Then I thought, (Heaven forbid! A thought! Oh, how horrible, how awful!) that rawat knows exactly what he is doing. It is the rabid premies who have their anatomy so positioned.

He is like every other religion that doesn't want you to think for yourself. 'You must have faith.' Anybody ever heard that one from one of the established, 'regular' religions? I certainly have. It is exactly the same thing rawat says, often in the same speech where he insists that 'this is not a religion.' ''You need a master.'' ''You must be grateful.'' Why? I'd like to look him right in the eye and ask him just how stupid he thinks most people are. The answer is, 'Very stupid', obviously.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:05:44 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: I came here to say......
Message:
I came to the same conclusion. M knows exactly what he's doing/done. Nothing is left to chance and if something doesn't go right, he instantly changes things. I've never thought, and still do not consider him low I.Q. To use it the way he does is inhumane.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 14:40:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: I came here to say......
Message:
Timmi:

Just want to take a moment and thank you for your post. It looks so lonesome sitting out there. Cult thinking causes brain damage. Not proven yet, but a viable hypothesis.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:15:02 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Hi Timmi
Message:
Yes, he knows what he's doing. He may not have known consciously from the beginning but of course he knew he was onto a good scam.

btdt, as for his IQ. He's shrewdy and calculating but over-estimates himself and is arrogant and he thinks he's smarter than everyone else. In my book that equals STUPID.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 16:06:27 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Hi Timmi
Message:
Yes, he knows what he's doing. He may not have known consciously from the beginning but of course he knew he was onto a good scam.

btdt, as for his IQ. He's shrewdy and calculating but over-estimates himself and is arrogant and he thinks he's smarter than everyone else. In my book that equals STUPID.


---

Pat:

You can say exactly the same thing about Bin Laden and his group. And unlike our flaws (which are many) theirs *is* fatal. Being in a cult, whether you're the leader or the follower, turns you into a dope.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:47:35 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Hi Timmi
Message:
I work with gifted kids and a research study showed the number of incarcerated kids, as well as, adults, with high I.Q.'s is staggering. M, is everything you say and behaves stupidly, but to me, he got an extra does of brain cells and what he's done with them is inhumane. 'Stupid is as stupid does'
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 08:44:20 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: All
Subject: selling stock (OT)
Message:
I have about two grand in Oracle that I'm going to sell this morning. It's not much, but to me it's alot and I can't afford to lose anymore of it.

The reason I'm selling is that I don't have 'confidence' that terrorism can be controlled. That's what it really comes down to... if it's reasonable to think that our streets can be safe. America is too big to control in the way it would be necessary to rule out the possibility of terrorism, and technology is too advanced to restrict the means to cause it. The gaps in communication and transportation that used to exist kept our immediate world from being threatened. That's been gone for years even though we weren't accutely aware of it till now.

I saw Bush on TV last night, blustering about 'America is strong', but I think he's bluffing. I saw Netanyahu being interviewed earlier, and he said that when Libya was attacked by America, people predicted an Islamic backlash that would rock the world. It never happened, he said, and Libya just shut it's mouth and kept quiet ever since. Netanyahu said the same thing would happen in the current situation; America would kick some ass and the Islamic extremists would crawl right back into their hole. I found it unconvincing.

The stock market is all about confidence. The notion of terrorism, which wasn't even thought to me two weeks ago, is now big enough for me to think their isn't any reason for confidence in the American economy. I've always thought it was pretty much a house of cards, but used to think it could be sustained nonetheless.

Now, with what few dollars I have left invested in it, I'm pulling out because I honestly think it may be my last chance. This is one of those few times it would be great to turn out to be wrong.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 14:46:15 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: selling stock (OT)
Message:
That is a historically inacurrate additude, every calamity going back to pre wwII cuases drops in the market and excpet for pearl harbor the market was above where it was within 6 months, Pearl Harbor took longer, about 18 months, I have a paper chart on it on my desk. I am about to jump into the market and buy for long term growth. There are some seriously undervalued stocks out there that will be up in the next year. I have had money sitting on the sidelines waiting since march of 2000.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 17:05:29 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Free Stock Advice ?
Message:
Hey Ben,

I also have a bunch of money sitting in money markets. Everytime I decide to put it in stocks, the go down more, so I thought I'd wait to try to get some bargains. Do you think this is a good time? I was thinking of waiting a couple more weeks. What do you think?

Joe

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 18:00:17 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Free Stock Advice ?
Message:
We pay some one to manage this for us and he took our personal and business funds out of the marker last year - our 401 k had about8% growth last year and we are at about 6% this year. We were going to wait until after the first of the year as we felt that it would take that long for the market to correct - I think we are near bottom on some stocks - I will specualte with half of what I have allocated and rest will go into what I feel are strong companies that are undervalued. I know I will put some in some kind of energy basket, focusing on fule cell and hi -? capacitors (the have the ability of when you brake your vehicle soting the energy used in breaking and then using it to get going again - this is tech thats 4-5 years away - then there are things like computer storage and remote backup - I think you will start to see some demand build up as companies reevalute their stategies. I guess the answer is do you feel brave now - its definetley a time of higher risk - which should return a higher reward.
I have faith in this countries economy - we were near the bottom of a downward cycle and now a lot of value has been pushed out - look for prices to start rising after the first few attacks. That will settle down the country somewhat. Also we are in a typical 'triple witching' weekend and if you look back over the years the fall is not typically strong anyway.
Good Luck

A-

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 18:22:18 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Thanks, that's helpful
Message:
So, are you saying you aren't waiting until the first of the year? You changed your strategy to jump in now?

I guess I'm like a lot of others that I got spoiled by all those big returns over the past 6 years. You could kind of just throw money anywhere into the market and make money. That was bound to come to an end. My more conservative funds continued to do well until this past week, and I agree it's temporary, but how temporary is hard to know. I just think the bubble was so big, that the downturn won't be small. I'm not exactly sure why I think this, but I have heard a few economists say it and it makes sense to me.

I think alternative energy stocks are very smart. California just passed legislation to get to 20% production through renewables in the next 5 years from the current 10%. Solar and wind, I say.

I just hope that solar gets cheaper for individual homeowners. I looked into it for my house and it would cost about $40,000. It will take a lot of PG&E bills to cover that. a guy in my neighborhood actually produces more power than he needs for his house, and gets money back from PG&E because he actually returns power to the grid.

I guess the answer is a combination of tax incentives, and cheaper technology.

Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 00:46:16 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Thanks, that's helpful
Message:
I will be buying sooner - if you are interested in the whole power spectrum you may want to invest in this newsletter
http://www.powercosm.com/index.asp
The capicators I was thinking of are ultra-capacitors - its a fundamental change in chip logic, in the past chips have transmitted energy, these capacitors can store kinetic energy and convert it to power. MXWL is one ticker symbol, the others in that I was watching are CREE and calpline and apc.
[ Powercosm ]
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 15:35:49 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: I hope you're right (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 10:06:58 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: selling stock (OT)
Message:
Rick, given what you have said, you might consider taking that money and buying one ounce gold coins. The price would be the gold price on the commodities market plus 5%.
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 10:48:06 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: thanks, Gerry
Message:
I take it that's the most secure form of currency. God, if things get that bad, what're we going to buy with the gold?
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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 10:59:09 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: thanks, Gerry
Message:
what're we going to buy with the gold?

Good question, but it will always be worth something. I can't say the same for paper currency. I hope this doesn't start a pissing match, but the billions of and billions of dollars created out of thin air and pumped into the money supply to prop up the stock market is going to contribute greatly to inflation. It has to, there's no way around it.

Now the oil rich countries are not stupid. They see this devaluation for what it is and will want more of these now devalued greenbacks for their oil. Yes it is a house of cards and the bubble is bursting. Or maybe it's more like a leaky balloon.

Just my unprofessional take on it all and I'm sure others will disagree and I'm not going to argue the point with anyone, so take it with a grain of salt, consider the source, buyer beware, caveat emptor, etc.

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Date: Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 04:57:22 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: From Lifes (sic) Great
Message:
A few days ago I called David Roupell (aka cerise/Marolyn/SC and any number of other silly childish aliases) a liar on Lifes Great.

He tried to weasel out of it by posting this (as Anais Nin - he loves his aliases:) ''Thanks SC, for exposing Pat the Cyber harrasser. Now we have seen what lies just under his ever present shallow facade of convivial joviality. You have done us all a service by ripping of the mask of this resentful bitter and horribly judgemental man.''

I responded: The funny thing is that I have only ever lashed out at two people on the ex forum - you and Catweasel because you are both liars.

The CACroach replied: ''Errr...the public record proves otherwise sir. Forgotten your CAC profile already? Perhaps you'd like it posted here to remind everyone.

No, we wouldn't be THAT cruel!

...and I bought a new guitar yesterday so I'm in a conciliatory mood.
:)

P.S. Catweasel never lied. That is my speciality. He's the good, upfront, straight honest cop. I'm the low down sneaky, slippery, bent, covert, lying jackass cop.

It gets results.''

I answered: I wish you would post my CAC profile here especially since you have already said that you did it. That way my friends here who have not seen it will be able to see just what a weasel you are.

I said: ''The funny thing is that I have only ever lashed out at two people on the ex forum - you and Catweasel because you are both liars.''

I should have been more specific. I meant: '' The funny thing is that I have only ever lashed out at two people WHO POST on the ex forum - you and Catweasel because you are both liars.''

In my CAC profile I am quoted as lashing out at people who DO NOT POST on the ex forum except for one quote which was to Catweasel. And I apologised to them twice. I know when I have made a mistake.

PS There is nothing else happening on LG except for JHB trying to get a link to EPO and CT and Elaine agreeing that the WTC victims are better off dead because ''they are in heaven.''




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