Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 26, 2001 To: Oct 01, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


Peg -:- anything Goes for politics...This has text now -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 03:38:11 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- religion-based terrorism IS a cult -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 13:44:27 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Probably against the flow, Peg -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:32:37 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- The politics of cult... -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 10:43:56 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- I agree, Pat, Cynthia -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:30:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Obsessed with Rev Rawat -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:36:38 (EDT)
__ Bob -:- Re: anything Goes for politics...This has text now -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:26:24 (EDT)
__ Saucy -:- Re: anything Goes for politics...This has text now -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 04:38:08 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- no i think its important we do -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 06:14:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Peg -:- Thanks -:- Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 03:22:56 (EDT)

Marianne -:- The world community of our forum -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 03:32:19 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Thanks Marianne , love to you and America [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 19:51:03 (EDT)
__ Salam -:- What about Australia? -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 04:41:05 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Re: What about Australia? -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 16:22:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Re: What about Australia? -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 21:57:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: What about Australia? -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 22:41:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Re: What about Australia? -:- Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 00:02:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: What about Australia? -:- Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 00:07:22 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- Yes! [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 03:54:15 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Thank you, Maid Marianne -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 03:40:32 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Family argument -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:40:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Family argument -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:25:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Re: Family argument -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:40:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Like most Yanks -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:48:10 (EDT)

Jerry -:- The root of Islamic fundamentalism? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:35:39 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Middle-class wannabes started -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 03:50:07 (EDT)
__ __ don jon -:- Re: Middle-class wannabes started -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 05:29:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ don jon -:- Re: Middle-class wannabes started -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 05:38:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You, sir, are an idiot -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 13:59:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ don jon -:- Re: You, sir, are an idiot -:- Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 05:15:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Don, right now people are starving -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:08:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ don jon -:- Re: Don, right now people are starving -:- Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 05:19:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Don, right now people are starving -:- Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 09:40:16 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Don't worry, Jer, I've got the answer -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 22:50:10 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- 'prayers and poetic verses' - more of the text -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:26:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ cq -:- and a link to Bob Woodward's article -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:43:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Ooh boy! Glad I didn't get Osama's darshan -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:55:06 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- no you're not, I've got the answer -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 01:24:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Thanks, Salam -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 19:08:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: Thanks, Salam -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 22:40:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Saudis changed mind re base -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 22:46:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: Saudis changed mind re base -:- Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 00:04:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- thank you salam -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 07:50:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ [Blank] -:- Re: no you're not, I've got the answer -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 01:26:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- see also -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:24:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Cheers,Salam [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:39:06 (EDT)

Jim -:- Here's a new one for you, Ger -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:21:39 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- There he is, get him !!! -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:35:33 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- The blue-haired panthers strike again -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:16:54 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- the pink Koala is here -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:20:31 (EDT)
__ __ Ddermot -:- Lol Pat [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:55:03 (EDT)

Jim -:- Does Maharaji know what 'trite' means? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:18:44 (EDT)
__ don jon -:- Re: Does Maharaji know what 'trite' means? -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 05:06:23 (EDT)
__ __ PatD -:- Overkill perhaps -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 19:36:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Overkill perhaps -:- Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 22:14:55 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Does Maharaji know what 'trite' means? -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:21:54 (EDT)
__ __ salsa -:- Re: Does Maharaji know what 'trite' means? -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 21:27:17 (EDT)

berni -:- Patriotism - what's that all about? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 17:57:48 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Britannia still rules the waves -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 05:49:37 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Britannia still waives the rules -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:48:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- In praise of American democracy -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:01:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- In praise of the Windsor Circus -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:11:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Lol ...cor blimey mate [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:23:06 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave }( -:- They can't make tea -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:39:20 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: They can't make tea -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:18:09 (EDT)
__ __ berni -:- Re: They can't make tea -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 06:33:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I know what you mean -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:30:58 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Patriotism - as an immigrant -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:01:48 (EDT)
__ __ berni -:- Re: Patriotism - as an immigrant -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 06:54:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Yes, Berni, the world has shrunk -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 12:05:17 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: Patriotism - what's that all about??? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:57:19 (EDT)
__ __ berni -:- Re: Patriotism - what's that all about? -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 06:35:06 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- Re: Patriotism - what's that all about? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:44:24 (EDT)
__ __ berni -:- Re: Patriotism - what's that all about? -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 06:42:05 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Really? I feel sorry for you then -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:42:52 (EDT)
__ __ berni -:- Re: Really? I feel sorry for you then -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 07:37:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- All sorts of false dilemnas there, berni -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:07:40 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Re: Patriotism - what's that all about? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:31:59 (EDT)
__ __ berni -:- Re: Patriotism - what's that all about? -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:12:08 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave }( -:- F+#£ off Pat -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:55:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- It's pronounced 'Amuhrkins' -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:48:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: F+#£ off Sir Dave -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:57:50 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Thank you, PatD -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:54:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- English self-deprecation, Pat -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 00:29:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Don't forget Darwin -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 04:49:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Yep, Charlie too -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:56:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Yep, Charlie too -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:35:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Hi Magiclara -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 19:29:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ berni -:- Re: Don't forget Darwin -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:55:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Sorry but -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:00:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You're in a rude mood, Dave -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:09:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- Re: You're in a rude mood, Dave -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:41:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Sorry, Peg, I used BP -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 04:05:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You did right, of course -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:16:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Compliment not comliment -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:44:39 (EDT)
__ __ Peg -:- Berlusconi -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:57:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ PatD -:- Re: Berlusconi -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:08:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Peg -:- Re: Berlusconi -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:34:07 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: Patriotism - what's that all about? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 18:51:58 (EDT)
__ __ berni -:- Somebody I didn't upset - phew! -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:28:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Didn't upset me -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:52:31 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Patriotism - what's that all about? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:50:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Hey Scott , tell the white House -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:12:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Next time I ask for a cup of sugar. -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:33:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Next time I ask for a cup of sugar. -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:42:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Next time I ask for a cup of sugar. -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 00:01:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- I'm only being half serious -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 00:35:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You can't keep secrets in US, Dermot -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:40:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- 3 special services captured by Taliban -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 16:37:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- My knee-jerk reaction when I heard -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 16:47:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Very true Pat [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 18:22:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Patriotism - what's that all about? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:49:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Actually -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 00:18:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Actually -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 04:22:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- What an impotent foolish diatribe -:- Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 02:51:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Patriotism - what's that all about? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:46:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Yep, wave that flag Rick haha [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 22:57:40 (EDT)

Rick -:- Foot in the Mouth Award OT -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 17:20:23 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- 'Teach your children well...'? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 18:44:56 (EDT)

Jerry -:- Alternative reporting -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 15:51:56 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Here's another good one -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 00:23:00 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Re: Alternative reporting -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 16:35:05 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Socialist Viewpoint, for what it's worth... -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:24:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- I was always a bit doubtful Gerry -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 13:17:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- The SF Bay Guardian -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 16:15:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Thanks Pat -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 16:31:41 (EDT)

cq -:- 'the safest of all places' -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 15:18:48 (EDT)
the other BoB -:- Maharaji is Brave and Wise -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 17:02:37 (EDT)
__ Julian -:- Why? -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 15:48:53 (EDT)
__ __ salsa -:- it is good -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 17:18:18 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- Re: Why -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 16:07:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- my objections are legion -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 22:07:43 (EDT)

JHB -:- Why successful premies are successful -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 14:57:11 (EDT)
__ magiclara -:- Re: Why successful premies are successful -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 15:42:36 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: Why successful premies are successful -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:57:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ magiclara -:- sucessful premies and sleep -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:03:36 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- John is referring to the CAC attack [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:36:04 (EDT)

Timmi -:- I am curious...... -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 13:39:14 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 03:38:11 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: All
Subject: anything Goes for politics...This has text now
Message:
A while ago it was suggested that political discussion went to AG so this could still be here as an ex premie forum.
As someone who has found this place very helpful to read while "getting out" of the cult.
And who is now telling other people about epo.
I think that is a good idea. I think reading the forum helped me to deal with all the shocking stuff on epo.
I realise there might be some sensible reason why this hasn't happened and don't want to say someone should make any big effort or payout if that's what it entails...
and I don't think this arena for talking about the aftermath of WTC should go either.
perhaps its too much against the flow to change it.
What do you think?
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 13:44:27 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: religion-based terrorism IS a cult
Message:
the cyanide attacks in Tokyo = religious charismatic cult terrorism

the murder of Jewish Denver radio disc jockey = racist Aryan Christian cult terrorism

bombings in Sri Lanka = religious cult terrorism

Golden Temple massacre source = religious cult terrorism

the salmonella poisoning at restaurants in Oregon by Rajneeshees = religious Indian guru cult terrorism

the smashing of Pat Halley's skull [by Maharaji's close subordinate Fakirananad] with a crowbar = religious cult terrorism

caca.org = religious cult terrorism

etc. ...

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:32:37 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Peg
Subject: Probably against the flow, Peg
Message:
Last week I thought we should take the politics to AG and decided not to make anymore OT posts here as I feel that newbies need this place to deconstruct. In fact I tried to get back on topic but M and K really do seem awfully silly right now.

The problem probably is that everyone here knows each other quite well already and has hashed Maharajism to death and were only ever really energized to discuss the topic when someone new came along with some provocative thoughts. But we didn't really know much about each others' poltics and it has been so interesting and surprising to see who thinks what.

I know it's hard to compete for attention right now amidst the world-shattering events but please feel free to direct any questions or concerns to me and I'll respond to you. If I don't pick up the ball or fail to see your post, just email me and draw my attention to it.

.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 10:43:56 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: The politics of cult...
Message:
Hi Peg,

I've been reading, not posting, and do agree with you that the political threads (for me) get a bit tedious intellectually and even scared me.

Yet, the politics, dynamics, and financing of the Maharajism cult is what has brought us all together here. We discuss and try to understand what exactly happened to us (me) that drew me into m's cult and when reading the issues of today, the terrorism in the world, which is born out of fanaticism certainly is pertinent in many of the political and religious fanaticism discussions here.

The events of 9/11 were/are so overwhelming, it's not unnatural that so many threads have been dedicated to discussing it.

At first, I agreed with PatC that these discussions be taken to AG, but then I thought too many exes will be gone from this forum. It's a need, I belive, to understand, analyze and work it through (the terrorist attack). Just like exiting the m cult, but different.

My 2 cents, :)
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:30:27 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: I agree, Pat, Cynthia
Message:
I agree with both of you. I hadn't thought of what Cynthia said, but it is so true -- it is important that a lot of the exes that are speaking their minds now about political matters stay glued to this Forum, so that when exiting premies ask questions, they are here to respond.

If they get involved in posting on another Forum, they may not have time to check both.

I do think that this is a natural evolution. Many of us have hashed the Maharaji thing to death, and we have been accused (wrongfully) by premies of having nothing better to do in our lives. This shows that they are wrong, and that we have a sense of perspective where M and his miserable little cult are concerned. My e-mail address is above, if you want it.

Also, Cynthia, send me an e-mail some time--I'd like to have your e-mail address.

Thanks all. Just my 2 cents.

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:36:38 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Obsessed with Rev Rawat
Message:
I haven't given him two thoughts in as many weeks. Very small potatoes.

But, yes, we're here to help newbies too.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:26:24 (EDT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: anything Goes for politics...This has text now
Message:
We are all very upset about the terrorist attack. I feel very involved because what lead to the attacks is fundamentalism, which is an element we were dealing with when being a premie. This forum can be very bright and inspiring, at times boring and even sometimes nasty. Right now it is mostly off topic. Just hang in there and you will see the different hues unfolding. Right now cacaraji is just an insignificant little bug to me . I have a life and a lot of projects, and a lot to be concerned about. I look at the portrait of bin laden and try to see the evil. He looks gentle to me, but I know the facts.
I picture myself as a muslim, in his area of influence. What would I do?? In this scenario I probably could have followed him, and although I might not have been a 'good' terrorist, the possible outcome terrifies me: all in the name of 'the lord'!
In a way I am glad that rawat is just a greedy creep, and a failed master, and a pathetic antichist. I have been at that point of vulnerability, that surrender, and although my dedication has been squandered and wasted, I realize it could have been a lot worse..., a lot .....
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 04:38:08 (EDT)
From: Saucy
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: anything Goes for politics...This has text now
Message:
yeah, I think the FA should ban anyone that talk about politics. This is a spritual forum, yar?
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 06:14:26 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Saucy
Subject: no i think its important we do
Message:
in the cult, we were forever being silenced and made to feel like heretics if we had a fervent interest in worl affairs. I think the breadth of discussion that comes out here about world events is important. it helps break the old programming that we still run into on lifes great and the crappy shit maharaji coughs up when faced with events of this magnitude.

i did like pat conlon's suggestion that we create a foom for flame wars, tho. in general, those idiotic time wasters watching people take up space lobbing profanities at each other like eight year olds definitely should be shunted into another room where they can insult each other till they wear it out. that much, i endorse.

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Date: Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 03:22:56 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Thanks
Message:
everybody... I see what you mean Cynthia...if everyone went off to another forum this wouldn't be here then either.
I agree also with those who sais that this terrorism put M in perspective, I experienced that here too even being newly sprung.

Peg

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 03:32:19 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: All
Subject: The world community of our forum
Message:
Although I have not been an active participant in the many spirited, thoughtful and intelligent discussions which have been happening here since September 11, I have been checking in to see what people have been saying. I am deeply gratified and touched by what I read here.

Our common connection with Maharaji through this forum has given so many diverse voices from across the planet a way to communicate in the face of what we uniformly condemn as a terrorist act. What affects me the most is being able to read what people from other far away places and backgrounds think and feel about what happened on September 11. Amazingly, I see that I do not agree with the views expressed by some exes with whom I have total agreement about Maharaji and the cult. I am grateful to have a place to sort out all my conflicting reactions to these events with people who sincerely are trying to do the same, but have reached completely divergent conclusions about this situation. If the forum did not exist, I wouldn't be exposed to all of your ideas and opinions, from all across the world.

I am grateful to have had the opportunity to have met some of you in person, from all across Europe, because our time together helps me to understand your beliefs. I was so touched by the minutes of silence observed by people in Europe and other parts of the world the Friday after the attacks. That simple act showed the terrorists that we are all harmed by their senseless violence, and that it is universally condemned.

Thanks for all of your ideas and insights. You are helping me to understand how I feel and want to respond.

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 19:51:03 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks Marianne , love to you and America [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 04:41:05 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: What about Australia?
Message:
you did say anything about Australia. now go back an re-write your post.
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 16:22:11 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: What about Australia?
Message:
Salam

My daughter's trekking round there at the moment....last time I heard from her was when she needed some money :) I expect I'll get an email soon.

She'e due to fly back to the Uk next July......hope the international situation/air traffic is safe by then.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 21:57:06 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: What about Australia?
Message:
I think she is more in danger of getting lost in the bush than anything else.

did not know you are pom. ())

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 22:41:38 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: What about Australia?
Message:
Haha ....yeah maybe the bush is more of a problem. She arrived in Darwin ....on her way down the west coast to relatives in Adelaide ....then round to other places ////melbourne , sydney, Brisbane and stuff.

I can see you don't read my posts :) Im half Irish/half english ....so 1/2 a pom

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Date: Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 00:02:21 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: What about Australia?
Message:
Anth is like you. Are u related? bit hard to read everything, I skim read most of the time.
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Date: Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 00:07:22 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: What about Australia?
Message:
Anth is half Irish? Didn't know that . Nope he's no relative of mine.

skim read huh ....oh by the way, the mullah Bush photos were hilarious

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 03:54:15 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Yes! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 03:40:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thank you, Maid Marianne
Message:
You put into words a lot of what I was thinking. I've been quite surprised by the amount some of us do disagree on politics but in the end there really is a feeling of a family argument rather than some cold impersonal debate.

Even when some of the stuff really irritates me and sounds so abstract, theoretical, I keep coming back because you can hear the honesty and sincerity in the voices even if you don't agree with them.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:40:13 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Family argument
Message:
Dear Pat and all,

Yes, I agree Pat! There has been a bit of flare-ups at times but we have already gained a degree of respect for each other through our interactions here, so that I find myself listening to views quite divergent from my own, as well as those that really ring a bell for me.

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:25:22 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: Family argument
Message:
But I guess I was kind of shocked at how many lefties there are and the anti-Americanism of the Yank exes (I expect it from the Brit snobs.) I was so angry at first I nearly stopped posting because I felt I was being driven into the Republican corner. Aaargh!

Well, I actually did register as a Rep when I lived in the Haight and first became a US citizen. Couldn't stand all the lazy bums. If the GOP were not so white, christian and anti-gay maybe I would. Well, I do live in the only area of SF with any sort of GOP registration. Maybe I'll join the other 25 Reps in SF. ;)

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:40:54 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Family argument
Message:
Yeah,

I'm a lefty that's come a bit more to center in my old age. I also see quite clearly that too far to the left and too far to the right are a ridiculous stance in the face of real events needing real solutions. :)

And now that the US has taken a stand against terrorism, I want to be real positive about that! Maybe the US government, and all governments that are the true 'power players' will stop supporting death squads, dictators, and terrorists outside of their own borders, and find some way to at least slow down the slaughter of innocent and seemingly powerless people.

Human rights, and saving the environment, are probably the two biggest reasons I'm a bit to the left. But I've noticed that both the far left and the far right, rag, rag, rag, rag. It's easy to criticize. It's far better to be positive, and work for solutions and concensus. You CAN teach an old dog new tricks. What did Rodney King say after the riots in LA? 'Can't we ALL get along???'

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:48:10 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Like most Yanks
Message:
I think we are independent moderates. I certainly don't feel drawn to either party but vote for what makes sense. Many thoughtful conservatives now espouse conservation. In fact true conservatives wish to preserve the best of everything that the west has created in art, literature etc.

To that extent I am conservative but can't stand authoritarianism of either left or right or meddling in private affairs. Just a man in the middle which isn't easy in this Peoples' Republic of SF. Too funny, everywhere else I'm regarded as a pinko.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:35:39 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The root of Islamic fundamentalism?
Message:
Here's an interesting article that may help to clear up why Islamic fundamentalism has become all the rage of the Middle East, particularly among young, educated Saudis:

Friends Like These

...But much has changed in Saudi Arabia during the last 20 years. Once run as an opulent welfare state, where college graduates were virtually guaranteed cushy, 30-hour-a-week white-collar jobs, Saudi Arabia today is battling rising unemployment, particularly among young men. And the Saudis have too many young men (and young women). Nearly half the country's 20 million citizens are under the age of 20, products of a baby boom during the country's heady 1980s oil glory days. Saudi mothers bear an average of six children apiece, and the country's annual population growth in recent years has hovered at about 4 percent, among the highest in the world.

The result is a growing number of discontented, educated natives who may present more of a danger than indigent populations do in neighboring countries. 'Poor laborers are not the biggest problem. The problem are those with some education, the potential professionals,' says Voll. 'Look at the description of the hijackers. They were Saudi middle-class wannabes who expected to be professionals and didn't see opportunities they thought should be there. People like that are much more dangerous, and can do things peasants can't do. Like blend into a Florida suburb.' (Several of the hijackers lived and trained as pilots in Florida.)

Seyyed Vali Reza Nasr, author and expert on Islamic extremism in Pakistan, writes that the problem is even more widespread: 'If the U.S. wants to do something about radical Islam, it has to deal with Saudi Arabia. The 'rogue states' [Iraq, Libya, etc.] are less important in the radicalization of Islam than Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is the single most important cause and supporter of the general fanaticization of Islam.'

That IS where Bin Laden comes from, isn't it? Hmm. What do you think, Salam, is Islamic fundamentalism just a bunch of pissed off college Saudi brats that blame America for all their woes?

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 03:50:07 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Middle-class wannabes started
Message:
the 1968 Paris student uprising and its other Marxist imitators in Europe and USA and the Black Panthers and Nicaragua and .....

Seems like being spoonfed from day one and thinking the world owes you something and not getting that dream career straight out of college is often enough to make these spoiled brats hate the thwarters of their fantasies.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 05:29:29 (EDT)
From: don jon
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Middle-class wannabes started
Message:
never ever wanted a'dream career straight out of college' just wanted
a peaceful life in an oriental country outside the sphere of influence
of the godless materialistic western society, but the u.s. and her
allies sent dea and other payola agents and undermined the rest of the
world with their money..see the most recent grant of 50 million $ to
pakistan....but they will one day realize ' can't buy me love '....
back in the 60ies I could sit out in any cafe in those places like
morocco, afghanistan and nepal and could smoke my dope publicly until
the u.s. came and 'liberated' those 'backward' non-civilizations
with their alcohol and profit - competition free market ideology,
fuck off..............
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 05:38:17 (EDT)
From: don jon
Email: None
To: don jon
Subject: Re: Middle-class wannabes started
Message:
and if I as a westerner feel this way about the occupation of islamic
countries by the u.s. , I do understand the reaction of the indigenous
people of those places who just want to get rid of their rotten
governments and the rich elite that has been bribed and bought by
uncle sam....once again FUCK OFF...mr. pat c. you can mock and ridicule
mr. rawat, you may insult the hindus, but you just can't lay
your bullshit trip on muslims, you know that and that's why you mock
at the Holy Quran, you rotten creature...
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 13:59:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: don jon
Subject: You, sir, are an idiot
Message:
Very low-grade thought process, buddy. Very.

The 'indigenous people' aren't indigenous, half of them, and the theocratic regimes they want are not just entirely elitist (tihnk Ayatollahs), they're God-evil. So sorry to hear about you and your dope; that's a really tragic story.

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Date: Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 05:15:08 (EDT)
From: don jon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: You, sir, are an idiot
Message:
have you ever been outside the americas , sir ????
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:08:46 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: don jon
Subject: Don, right now people are starving
Message:
Maybe this is something we can all agree on - and maybe do something about. There is a huge humanitarian crisis in the works in Afghanistan, and millions of people in Afghanistan might die if they don't get food ASAP.

We can argue about Islam versus the West, or the causes of terrorism forever, but right now people in Afghanistan are starving to death - and these arguments are not helping them . Part of this problem results from the civil war there, but part of it is because there has been a terrible drought for several years (which was not caused by 'the West'). The Afghan people whose children are starving don't care where food comes from - only if it comes.

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Date: Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 05:19:12 (EDT)
From: don jon
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Don, right now people are starving
Message:
i agree, katie and there's hope .. i heard there were peace demon
strations in a couple of places in the u.s. inter alia san francisco,
against the war their government plans. wonder if pat joined in ???
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Date: Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 09:40:16 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: don jon
Subject: Re: Don, right now people are starving
Message:
Don, I doubt that I would have participated in the peace demonstrations, but they definitely are a sign that life in the US is starting to return to normal - and I am glad we CAN have protests here. I know some people who went to the one in DC.

But anyway, I do think that getting food to the Afghani people is a priority here - I think even the US government knows that.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 22:50:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Don't worry, Jer, I've got the answer
Message:
Spiritual Manual Guided Hijackers

By Karen Gullo
Associated Press Writer
Friday, Sept. 28, 2001; 8:44 p.m. EDT

WASHINGTON –– The Sept. 11 hijackers had step-by-step instructions to pray, smile and kill while earning a life in paradise for 'a job which is loved by God,' according to a document released Friday.

Four handwritten pages of fervent prayer and directions for everything from what to wear (tight clothes) to the last words to utter ('There is no God but God') were found in the suitcase of one of the hijacker, Mohamed Atta, who boarded an American Airlines flight that smashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center.

Photocopies of the document, written in Arabic, also were found in a car of one suspected hijacker on the fight that crashed into the Pentagon and in the wreckage of a United flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.

Attorney General John Ashcroft called the writings on lined paper 'a disturbing and shocking view into the mindset of these terrorists.' He said the document also was clear evidence linking the hijackers.

Officials said only preliminary translations have been completed and they were not prepared to release an English version.

A rough translation by The Associated Press showed instructions divided into three sections for 'the night before' the trip to the airport and the boarding of the plane each group of hijackers would eventually commandeer.

The instructions ranged from the practical to the spiritual.

Check your weapon and tidy up your clothes the night before, the document said.

'Be happy, because the distance between this life and your joyful new life is short,' said one passage.

In the taxi to the airport, the document advised the hijackers, 'don't be nervous. Look cheerful and satisfied.'

'You're doing a job which is loved by God, and you will end your day in heavens where you will join the virgins,' it said.

These guys aren't so bad, I guess. They just want to get laid. Hey, we've all wanted to join the virgins from time to time, haven't we? Well, girls, it's time to put out! Maybe we can have posters and a slogan like during the Vietnam war -- 'Girls say yes, to boys who say no'. Maybe something with a bit of an incentive for the women this time, something like -- 'Put out before they put YOU out'.

The document contains numerous prayers and poetic versus.

Ashcroft said those references were 'a stark reminder of how these hijackers grossly perverted the Islamic faith to justify their terroristic acts.'

I'd like to see the 'prayers and poetic verses' myself to determine just how much gross perversion's going on, thank you very much. Wouldn't you?

Many passages seem to address the hijackers' fears and contain prayers of fortification and endurance. Over and over the hijackers are promised an afterlife in heaven.

In the final section, instructions are given for the final moments:

'Open your chest welcoming death in the path of God and utter your prayer seconds before you go to your target.'

'Let your last words be, There is no God but God and Mohammad is His messenger. Then, inshallah, you will be in heavens.'

Authorities said they do not know exactly when the document was written or who the author was.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:26:47 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'prayers and poetic verses' - more of the text
Message:
from http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,560264,00.html

Final thoughts of attacker as he
prepared for suicide mission

Excerpts from handwritten documents found in Mohamed
Atta's luggage and amid the Pennsylvania wreckage.
Translated from Arabic

Saturday September 29, 2001
The Guardian

• 'In the name of God, the most merciful, the most
compassionate... In the name of God, of myself and of my
family . . . I pray to you God to forgive me from all my sins, to
allow me to glorify you in every possible way.'

• 'Remember the battle of the prophet... against the infidels, as
he went on building the Islamic state.'

• In upper right hand corner of Page 3: 'The last night.'

• 'Remind yourself that in this night you will face many
challenges. But you have to face them and understand it 100%.'

• 'Obey God, his messenger, and don't fight among yourselves
where you become weak, and stand fast, God will stand with
those who stood fast.'

• 'You should engage in such things, you should pray, you
should fast. You should ask God for guidance, you should ask
God for help... Continue to pray throughout this night. Continue
to recite the Koran.'

• 'Purify your heart and clean it from all earthly matters. The
time of fun and waste has gone. The time of judgment has
arrived. Hence we need to utilise those few hours to ask God for
forgiveness. You have to be convinced that those few hours that
are left you in your life are very few. From there you will begin to
live the happy life, the infinite paradise. Be optimistic. The
prophet was always optimistic.'

• 'Check all of your items - your bag, your clothes, knives, your
will, your IDs, your passport, all your papers. Check your safety
before you leave.... Make sure that nobody is following you...
Make sure that you are clean, your clothes are clean, including
your shoes.'

• 'If you take a taxi to the airport, when you arrive... smile and
rest assured, for Allah is with the believers and the angels are
protecting you.'

• 'When the time of truth comes and zero hour arrives, then
straighten out your clothes, open your chest and welcome death
for the sake of Allah. Seconds before the target, your last words
should be 'There is no God but Allah. Mohammed is his
messenger'.'

• 'Always remember the verses that you would wish for death
before you meet it if you only know what the reward after death
will be.'

• 'Everybody hates death, fears death. But only those, the
believers who know the life after death and the reward after
death, would be the ones who will be seeking death.'

• 'Remember the verse that if God supports you, no one will be
able to defeat you.'

• 'Keep a very open mind, keep a very open heart of what you
are to face. You will be entering paradise. You will be entering
the happiest life, everlasting life. Keep in your mind that if you
are plagued with a problem and how to get out of it. A believer is
always plagued with problems... You will never enter paradise if
you have not had a major problem. But only those who stood
fast through it are the ones who will overcome it.'

• 'In the morning, try to pray the morning prayer with an open
heart. Don't leave but when you have washed for the prayer.
Continue to pray.'

• 'When you enter the plane:

'Oh God, open all doors for me. Oh God, who answers prayers
and answers those who ask you, I am asking you for your help. I
am asking you for forgiveness. I am asking you to lighten my
way. I am asking you to lift the burden I feel.'

• 'God, I trust in you. God, I lay myself in your hands. I ask with
the light of your faith that has lit the whole world and lightened
all darkness on this earth, to guide me until you approve of me.
And once you do, that's my ultimate goal.'

• 'There is no God but God. There is no God who is the God of
the highest throne, there is no God but God, the God of all earth
and skies. There is no God but God, I being a sinner. We are of
God, and to God we return.'

Sources: Washington Post, Dallas Morning News

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:43:57 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: and a link to Bob Woodward's article
Message:
Bob Woodward's article (the same reporter who, with Carl Bernstein scooped the Watergate scandal) here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37629-2001Sep27.html

This I found noteworthy:

Jonathan Brockopp, an assistant professor of Islamic
studies at Bard College, New York, said that there was an
inconsistency in a passage that referred to seeking death.

'There is an important distinction between suicide and
martyrdom in that martyrs don't seek death,' he said. 'A martyr
seeks to glorify God and be God's instrument and is not
necessarily seeking death. Not seeking death is tremendously
important in Muslim tradition.'

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:55:06 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Ooh boy! Glad I didn't get Osama's darshan
Message:
Yikes! Osama's talibs apparently get a bhakti juju thrill from their leader's presence. I'm so glad I didn't become a Muslim. Nothing like cult fanaticism to make you feel important.
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 01:24:20 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: no you're not, I've got the answer
Message:
so take dat}) and dat }).

This is crap. gerry is asking wether or not terrorists or fundemantilist are educated middle class. Another story for Shara'zad. Fortunatly for Sahh'razad, someone has told it, so there goes,

STATE, ISLAM AND OPPOSITION IN SAUDI ARABIA

As for reforming an Arab, yeah, pigs will fly.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 19:08:14 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Thanks, Salam
Message:
I knew you were the guy who could provide some leads to where Bin Laden comes from. The reading was a little thick (too many players to keep track of), but I still feel better informed on what's going on in that corner of the world. I wonder if Bush knows about this stuff. I think if he did, he'd tone down his rhetoric understanding that he's just adding fuel to the fundamentalists' flame. It makes me wonder what his advisors are telling him. Surely, it should be obvious to him that an increased military presense in the Middle East can only make matters go from bad to worse. But I do think if he focuses on just getting the terrorists groups by launching commando type raids, most Muslims would be willing to live with that. I doubt they'd object to any nation defending itself, provided no innocents are caught in the crossfire.
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 22:40:22 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Thanks, Salam
Message:
maybe some one should e-mail the State Departement with the url.

Unfortunatly, or at least from my experience, you can't understand event in the mid-east [now it looks like central-asia too] without going 50-100 years to see what has led to an event, thus the slow going. Personally I like it, it's full of plots, politics and whos done it.

I really don't think there will be a war as we are acustomed to it. Few scirmishes yes [already happening].

My opinion is that the US is trying to split the Talibans from the inside, this is already appearent. Remember the last meeting of the 'ULMA'. They decided that bin Laden is to leave, while one eyed Omar said no. So there you got it.

Everything else that is happening is to keep the media and the public busy. The Northen aliance will be forgotten, the king will die and be buried in Itally, everyone else goes home and a moderate Taliban [i.e. run by the CIA] will be in power.

The Sauds know all of this which is the reason why they refused the US to use their bases. I haven't followed on wether or not the UAE have allowed them in [interestingly, no news ageny is reporting on this, I wonder why?].

Bush and the American Admin are not stupid but, they know exactly what they are doing, it all goes under US Short and Long Strategic Objectives. Which translates very simply to, when it comes to American interests, fuck everyone else, the proof is in the Koyoto agreement.

Well, it's a sad story. The US behaves as if it owns the planet. Wants to run it their way with disregard to other societies and culturs.

I don't argue if an Islamic rule is better than a democratic one, maybe each is suitable for certain conditions. But enforcing ones own ideas on one another is what a cult normally do [and that goes for both sides]. Wether it is in the name of religion, politics, love of freedom or anything else.

I do not endorse one faction trying to eliminate one another. I don't give a fuck what god says or what a political system is inclined to. There are many examples in modern history. Hitler comes to mind. In the name of some twisted ideology millions died. What about Catholic Christians during WWII, they supported the Serbs against other Christian faths and hid some of the mass murderers in the Vatican.

some people here are complaining that this debate should be moved to AG2. I don't think so. Rawat is just an example of what can happen when an idea is given more importance to human life. What we have here is that an idea has become 'unquestionable'.

[must go, put ur hat on and do some thinking]

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 22:46:51 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Saudis changed mind re base
Message:
According to reports today the Saudis WILL let the US (and Britain) use the base, so America has cancelled the UAE approach.
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Date: Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 00:04:39 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Saudis changed mind re base
Message:
I haven't checkd the news for the last 24 hours. Gee am a bit out of date. no comment until I can confirm, da?
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 07:50:37 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: thank you salam
Message:
I understand what's happenning much better now, thanks to that reference. I had heard an off hand comment pointing in that general direction, but this gives the historical background that I needed to see it in its scope.

So what we have here is one family trying to steer a vast portion of the arabian desert into nationhood, but being resented by islamic purists who revile the notion of one family or one person [the King] putting themselves/himself above other muslims, which smacks of the rejoinder 'yeah? who died and made YOU God?'. In the purist view, all are equal and no one is above anyone but Allah.

Makes sense in an ideal world. But might not be possible in a pragmatic one.

It's too bad the opposition doesn't just focus on their homeland and leave America for much later. It would be success enough to just move from a royal family and all their concomitant inbreeding in ruling the nation, to something that looked more like the valid equality and judgement envisioned, and consolidating this a nation at a time, until the islamic 'world' could happily mark a boundary around itself and say 'Here is our exemplary society, world. This is how God means for humanity to exist.', and to illuminate by doing it.
It's truly disturbing that on top of just these two worthwhile and challenging goals, which would take years , but if won, would contribute real value to the human story-- now the purists seem to feel that they have to strike outside the lines of their own boundaries and their own people and set out to destroy us. That is a poor choice of strategy and a real waste of resources.

Any time a strata of people make up their minds to do away witha monarchy and mean to replace it with someting more equal, the monarchy digs in and clings. Look at Britain. Look at the American Revolution, and then the era of Ghandi in India. Look at South Africa. Look at the French Revolution. For that matter, the Bolshevik/communist revolution in Russia, or Mao's China.

It is quite a great enough task to overthrow the governing forces of one's own land, and to institute a new society and shape it to adhere to a new guiding image.

But to go after another nation, thousands of miles distant, when one has'nt even succeeded in reforming one's own immediate environs?

I fail to see their logic.

in some ways, they are like us. they resent the king and spend their days delineating how he doesnt deserve to do what he does or have whathe has, and they rave for him to be brought down. they feel superior.

but supposing they actually do it
then they will have the results of their acts, and will learn firsthand whether it is an easy thing to shape a state, to form a nation that can hold its own in the great world arena.

It's easy to attack and criticize the one who's doing it,, or atempting to. It's quite qnother thing to oust them and step into their place, and find out what it's really like to try to govern.

again. thanks.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 01:26:21 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: no you're not, I've got the answer
Message:
check entry 8. Merci.
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:24:34 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: [Blank]
Subject: see also
Message:
http://www.miraserve.com/englishnew.htm

Official opposition of Saudis in the UK. [at least one of them]

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:39:06 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Cheers,Salam [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:21:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Here's a new one for you, Ger
Message:
Bin Laden denies terror attacks and points finger at Jews

Osama bin Laden has allegedly denied any involvement in the US terror attacks and pointed the finger at Jews.

His reasoning is that Florida's Jewish community has not forgiven President Bush for his controversial state victory in the US election, an Urdu language newspaper reports.

The interview with the accused terror mastermind appeared in the Karachi daily Ummat, believed to have close connections to Islamic groups in Afghanistan.

The newspaper says it submitted questions for bin Laden to Taliban officials and received written replies.

The paper quoted bin Laden as saying: 'Neither I nor my organisation Al-Qaida is involved in the attacks and the US has traced the attackers within America.

'The attackers could be anybody, people who are part of the American system yet rebel against it, or some group that wants to make this century a century of confrontation between Islam and Christianity,' he said.

Referring to evidence obtained by American intelligence, bin laden said: 'Ask this question to these intelligence agencies that get billions of dollars every year.'

Ummat quotes bin Laden as saying: 'We are against the American system but not the American people. Islam does not allow killing of innocent people, men, women and children even in the event of war.'

He says international freezing of assets and accounts will not affect the working of Al-Qaida 'as we have alternate arrangements'.

According to the newspaper, bin Laden says Al-Qaida has three alternate financial systems, which are being run separately and independently by those 'who love jihad,' he said.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:35:33 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: There he is, get him !!!
Message:
jesus, if The Times of Ubkanistan can track him down, maybe we should send in some Newsweek reporters. They'd have the whole Taliban army surrendering.
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:16:54 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The blue-haired panthers strike again
Message:
I can just see Mrs Rabinowitz with her blue hair and leathery tanned skin saying: ''What did I tell you, that Texas goy stole our votes. Let's take out the WTC. I'll fly the first plane. My hair-spraying history ought to be just as good as practicing crop dusting. Oy veh.''
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:20:31 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: the pink Koala is here
Message:
da link does not work, dar?

Munch munch munch

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:55:03 (EDT)
From: Ddermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Lol Pat [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:18:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Does Maharaji know what 'trite' means?
Message:
Here, again, is Maharaji's message regarding the terrorist attacks:

Heartfelt condolences to all the victims and innocent people who have been touched by this tragedy.

In this hour of need, dear God
Grant us your grace,
Guide us from darkness to light
From confusion to clarity
From pain to joy
From hate to love.
Give us the strength to endure.
Give us the courage to go on.
Bless us with your kindness.

Nothing personal, nothing new, nothing profound. Even on religious terms, this message is a cipher. The guy's not saying anything but the most obvious banalities that just aren't worth mentioning. Honestly, premies, if you're reading this post, didn't you cringe when your first saw that? I mean, here's the guy who once promised 'on a stack of bibles' that he himself would bring peace to the world. Now, the world's in turmoil and and confusion of amazing proportions and all he can say is this empty set of worthless cliches?!

Time to trot out the old DUO film, Maharaji. The world needs you now more than ever.

What a joke!

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 05:06:23 (EDT)
From: don jon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Does Maharaji know what 'trite' means?
Message:
in fact he said ' I will establish peace in the world ', Now substitute peace for its arab equivalent and he said ' I will establish Islam in the world ' .this is the real occult meaning...
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 19:36:12 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Overkill perhaps
Message:
''After hearing what the Iraqi army had been doing during it's occupation of Kuwait''

Just how much of that was true? I heard that the throwing babies out of incubators was pure fabrication put there to rouse hatred for the Iraqi army.

I must admit, I wasn't proud to be associated by nationality with the slaughter of 100,000 retreating, beaten troops. There was much outrage here about it at the time. Yeah, the top brass talked about destroying Saddam Hussain's ''equipment'' or war machine but I thought, as did many others that the destruction of a retreating army, comprising (in the main) of conscripts with inferior, primative weapons and with their morale destroyed; well I considered it overkill and uneccesary. It was mass slaughter of the cruelest kind of which the West shouldn't be proud.

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Date: Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 22:14:55 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Overkill perhaps
Message:
Dave:

I don't know if it was overkill or not. Had we been after the Hussein government itself then prisoners would have made a lot more sense, but this dilemma more or less falls out of the fact that we merely wanted to cripple Hussein and not get rid of him. I'm more concerned about the fact that we didn't see fit to grieve over the enemy, which is a very old and honorable military tradition. Such an unseemly kill ratio demands some acknowledgment in the form of grief, and the fact that we couldn't bring ourselves to that signifies a sort of adolescent attitude toward conflict. Not healthy, and worth worrying about.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:21:54 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Does Maharaji know what 'trite' means?
Message:
do you think he's got copyright on it?
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 21:27:17 (EDT)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: Does Maharaji know what 'trite' means?
Message:
He must, my god, imagine if somebody steals such a valuable barf. Good point sslam. and if he hasen't you just warned ev indirectly of the possibility.

even today you are such a devotee. Praise the lard.

he should also put a patent in his dance movements. he has so much geace when he dances. is a lila, that is why he misses the beat. only a lila.:-)

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 17:57:48 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Patriotism - what's that all about?
Message:
Jim posted a reply to Joe below 'How Simplistic' containing the question 'When was the last time you ever voiced anything even akin to pride in anything your country's done internationally?'
Sorry Jim, but I put the question to myself and , although I have been proud of some of the things that my son or daughter, or my close friends have done, I could only answer that I never have been proud of my, or anyone elses Country
What is this pride that comes from identification with the country you were born in or have settled in? It's just a piece of land, although there are wonderfully diverse cultural differences between those groups of people living on different pieces of land.
But then there are many strong similarities between the views of people who live in different countries - their world view, the way they treat fellow humans....
I'm English born and bred, but I've got no understanding of pride in England - it means nothing to me, and amongst of all my friends ( well more than one anyway ) past and present I can't think of any flag waving, for King and Country types.
I tend to identify with those individuals who share my ethics and who I admire.
The internet is making the world a smaller place and breaking down the boundaries of land borders, which I think is all to the good, so what's this patriotism all about then? Is it anything like being in a cult?
No really, I don't mean to make light of it, I just have never been able to understand it and I often feel more akin to certain aspects of French, American, Greek, Irish ( to name a few ) cultures than to the British one.

Berni

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 05:49:37 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Britannia still rules the waves
Message:
or at least to the Iranians. In Iran, Britain is seen as the real power behind the thone of America or to put it another way, said by a British journalist in Iran recently:

''Britain is seen as the remote control that controls the stumbling giant of America.''

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:48:31 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Britannia still waives the rules
Message:
Ah, Cecil Rhodes' idea. And Clinton, a former Rhodes scholar to Oxford, was one of the beneficiaries of the trust fund set up to spread the knowledge (the superiority of British civilzation and the parliamentary system) to every land. It was a noble ideal...if only Rhodes had not included the monarchy clause.
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:01:52 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: In praise of American democracy
Message:
Yeah Pat, fuck the monarchy ....but as a purely constitutional tool without power ie the power residing in Parliament ...I guess there could be worse forms of democracy.

However, there's a great little book by Johnathon Freedland (?) called
'Bringing the Revoultion Home '. He's an English journalist/writer who spent a long time in the States and still visits there a lot. The book points out the tremendous input of Englishmen in drawing up the American constitution and how we should import a lot of basic democratic stuff back here.

I read the book a year or so ago and it really brought home to me that despite all sorts of problems America really is a remarkably democratic country in lots of ways.Unfortunately, this (for liberal minded people ) can translate into some weird local scenarios in the States and produce some radically different policies depending on where you are in the states.

For instance, I guess in UK and Europe,if the people had a choice through voting, then the death penalty would probably be introduced ...things like that are usually decided by the elected intelligentsia/ elite etc. I'm sure the millions of 'Sun' readers would say ' Hang the bastards, ask questions later'.

In the States, I guess you get lesbians running towns in Vermont (?) to some mad mayor/prison governor in New mexico running camps almost on Serb lines haha.....but it's the PEOPLE who vote these locals in and it's the PEOPLE who get what they want (whether to us it's acceptable or repulsive)and it's the PEOPLE who kick em out if they don't deliver. On a local basis I think the USA demonstrates democracy in action much more than the generally centralised European models inc UK. I generally prefer the more homogenous , civilised European model (even though it's dictated from on high in lots of respects)simply because (in spite of drawbacks) it tends to aspire for civilised values.

There's no arguing though that there's a lot to be said for the US model even though it produces diverse societal models within the one whole Federal state. Horses for courses I guess.

So bring the revolution back home I say ....have a republic over here but also temper the extremities of the US model with the restraint of the Euro one.

.....but if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao , you ain't gonna make it with anyone , anyhow....you know it's gonna be alright !!!

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:11:57 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: In praise of the Windsor Circus
Message:
Too funny how ''bog-standard'' Yanks just adore the Windsor Family Circus and feel so inferior to Brits. I know one Brit over here who was the son of a Cockney barrow-boy. He now talks with a hot-potato in his mouth and runs three day ''management facilitation'' seminars for which corporations pay $80,000 a pop. I attended one and burst out laughing at the former Cockney's scam. No, I couldn't even stick it our for one day let alone three.
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:23:06 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Lol ...cor blimey mate [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:39:20 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: They can't make tea
Message:
I dunno but when England beat Germany (World Cup football) in Munich the other week, the score,

Germany 1 - England 5

I felt pretty pleased.

I'm racially only half English myself and have two half Vietnmese children. I sometimes think this country's the pits compared with some other European countries such as Nederlands, Italy and France but when I'm in mainland Europe I can never get a decent cup of tea.

And then, Germany 1 - England 5 and it was an away match!!!

I must have some patriotism in me.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:18:09 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: Re: They can't make tea
Message:
get a thermos and make your own tead, yar?
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 06:33:11 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: Re: They can't make tea
Message:
Hi Dave,
You are going to think me really weird, as this is one of the things that make it hard to 'fit in' when I start a new job or am with some new aquaintances, but I can't get into football, cricket etc., and England winning the world cup or anything else for that matter, does nothing for me.
I must be bereft of some important gene, as I know that so many get so much out of it, but what can you do. I used to pretend I was interested but you soon get found out, so I always come right out with an honest answer to 'did you see the match last night'. i.e. 'No, I don't really follow football'. They soon start to direct the conversation in someone elses direction after that.
I do agree about getting a decent cup of tea though. But you can't beat the coffe in France or Italy.
berni
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:30:58 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: berni
Subject: I know what you mean
Message:
I haven't been to work in a proper job since 1979 (I'm self employed) and would not now fit into any job. But then, the people I employ are the same...

Football doesn't interest me normally but that World Cup game I mentioned, really staggered me and I just had to watch!

I wonder where you are in England. Drop me an email if you want. My email address is at the top of this message.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:01:48 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: Patriotism - as an immigrant
Message:
To me it means community, neighborliness. Unlike most Europeans and many Yanks, I have chosen what community to live in and who my neighbors will be. I chose them very carefully and am very fond of them and proud to be part of their community. I get upset when other people kill my neighbors as they did in the WTC attack.

I'm not a flag waver. I don't have to prove my patriotism. But I do happen to think that the community that I have chosen to live in, the USA, happens to be the best one and I am very proud of it and will obviously chose its interests over others'.

Patriotism for Europeans stirs up memories of horrible nationalistic wars in the past and they see that petty third world nationalism still is doing that. In the USA people from every country in the world come here and become Yanks. To us the US is more a state of mind than a nation.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 06:54:10 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Patriotism - as an immigrant
Message:
Hi Pat,
You have touched on something there, when talk about community and neighbourliness. I have to admit that I do enjoy the street I live in and socialising with those nearby. However I do feel closer to friends and relatives living in America, Australia, Ireland etc.and I feel more a part of other communities that are not so physically close, but I get your point, and if you are close to where the terrible tragedy occured then, of course you feel it is also an attack on you.
But isn't it equally disturbing when you see see millions of children dying of starvation or any of the other reported disasters in the world? I guess that's why Live Aid came about and concerts for Bangladesh etc.
And I am really pleased that so many countries are rallying together to support and offer sympathy to America in the wake of the WTC.
All the best
berni
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 12:05:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Yes, Berni, the world has shrunk
Message:
due to travel, TV and now the net. It is impossible to remain untouched by any human being's suffering anymore. But part of my patriotism is knowing that western civilzation would improve most of those peoples' live's immensely. It's not perfect but it beats being trapped in primitive religions, superstitions, repressive cultures and other obstacles to advancement.

I was just laughing at your story about not being able to talk about sports. In South Africa I was a social leper because I thought rugby was primitive. In England I was regarded as a disgrace because I thought cricket was boring and in the USA you dare not say that you prefer watching grass grow to baseball. It is the national religion.

Spare me from men and their balls unless they're the real thing. ;)

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:57:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: Patriotism - what's that all about???
Message:
Well think of patriotism as a willingness to sacrifice for a public cause then. I do identify with the places in my life in the US, but also with similar places in Wales and Ireland. Having grown up in the high desert I even identify with places in Afghanistan. On the other hand, confronted with the choice between Lockean values and those of a charismatic religion (whether secular like Marxism or spiritual like Islam) I'll choose the former, and am willing to make the necessary sacrifices, including flag waving.

This is patriotism. I don't know what else to call it, do you? 'I tend to identify with those individuals who share my ethics and who I admire.' And how would you propose to defend those values and ethics, and the individuals who express them, from the onslaught of a determined enemy, with the airy and casual commitments this statement implies? You'd have to 'constitute' the values somehow, yes? Give them expression in a set of principles that guide the establishment of institutions, right? Well, guess what... the level of your commitment to that constitution is a measure of your patriotism.

-Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 06:35:06 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Patriotism - what's that all about?
Message:
Hi Scott,
I agree with all that you say, although I'm not too well up on Lockean values. I presume you mean the English philosopher John Locke who I never read, although I did read Thomas Paine, who seemed to express a lot of Lockes ideas. Didn't he say something about the idea of any authoritarian state being a necessary evil?
You ask 'how would you propose to defend those values and ethics, and the individuals who express them, from the onslaught of a determined enemy, with the airy and casual commitments this statement implies? You'd have to 'constitute' the values somehow, yes? Give them expression in a set of principles that guide the establishment of institutions, right? '
Couldn't agree more, but why do these values have to be contained withing geographical boundaries. When you were a premie, didn't you identify more with Divine Light Mission than with any country? Maybe that was a big mistake but it's just to make the point that a group of like minded people with with you identify and are willing to sacrifice your own desires, do not have to constitute a country.
berni
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:44:24 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: Patriotism - what's that all about?
Message:
I am certainly not a flag waver and nor do I feel particularly proud of anything England is doing politically at the moment but I suppose I am patriotic in the sense that;
1) I feel hurt when people insult 'the English' ie I identify.
2) I feel pleased (and maybe proud) when England does well in any sport I have an Interest in.
3)I enjoy any appreciation of the English land, culture or any aspect ( if I share that appreciation )
4) I am no longer ashamed in fact I think I am proud to be English, because of an identification with the things I am proud of.

The trouble with this is that I also have to identify with the things I am not proud of ( If I'm honest). For a long time i was ashamed of being english at all, having gone to school in Canada where we were taught about the awful redcoats. For that reason I now enjoy my small patriotic feelings and pride.
I really think it probably is OK to be patriotic in a small sense like this though if it gets out of hand it becomes nationalism which I think is on a par with religion in causing a hell of a lot of trouble.
The dangerous thing I think is the belief that you or your group is right and others are wrong or inferior. If we can keep the perspective of being world citizens ( at the moment until other life forms appear!!??) that will probably work best.

Peg

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 06:42:05 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Patriotism - what's that all about?
Message:
Hi Peg,
I think I have answered in the negative re: your pride in English sporting achievements to Dave above, but you do say also that you feel a pride in other aspects of being English.
I too have an appreciation for English culture ( except maybe for jellied eels and whelks ) but I also have an equal appreciation for some aspects of American culture and definitely the French way of seeing/living life, and of course the Irish ( the most stoical nation ) and... the list could go on.
berni
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:42:52 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Really? I feel sorry for you then
Message:
There's a big difference between jingoistic fever and healthy patriotism. America's a beuatiful country in many respects and it's also behaved admirably, even heroically, in the past. Too bad you can't appreciate that or take any pride in the fact that that's your polity, them's your people.

Take communism, for instance. Say what you will but the fact is communism did indeed pose a significant threat to world peace and freedom in this century. The U.S. can take a lot of credit for standing up to the Soviets, China and their satellite states such that communism was essentially vanquished when the wall came down. But that meant playing the world chess game, sometimes erroneously, sometimes stupidly and sometimes with far murkier vision than hindsight. Was it right for the U.S. to fight in Korea? I think most historians agree it was. How about Vietnam? Maybe yes, maybe no? At least the U.S. was trying to do the right thing, I'm pretty sure of that. The war became unpopular because it was unwinnable at the costly level the U.S. was already engaged, not because the spectre of Soviet expansionism and the whole domino theory as it applied to IndoChina was wrong.

The U.S. intereventions in the former Yugoslavia or Somalia were well-intended. Some say they did too little, too late, some that they did too much. The fact is they intervened with laudable goals, again just trying to do the right thing. Same with the Gulf war.

And what about the Second World War? Is 50 years ago too long to remember?

I've got dual citizenship but I've lived most of my life in Canada. I think this country, too, has done much it can be proud of including, among others, supporting some of the same large 'good guy' campaigns like the Second World War. I'm not above criticizing the government. Hardly. But I'm certainly not settled into this anti-government cynicism that seems so fashionable against the U.S. Too bad for you if you feel that way.

As for England, again, there's a lot you should feel proud about. The development of the parliamentary system, common law, all that. Not to mention being the culture that bred such excellent industrial and intellectual accomplishments over the past few centuries. It's not to say the country's perfect or that other countries don't warrant pride as well but, seeing as they're your roots, you should be able to enjoy them. There's nothing cultic about that.

I'm a jew but I'm also an atheist. I can and do take pride in much of the cultural and intellectual heritage of my ancestors, maybe not so diferently than I feel a certain pride for general human accomplishments altogether. 'Hey, that's my species!', I've felt like saying sometimes. These feelings, I think, are only natural. They're enjoyable, empowering and, no, I don't think they're the least bit 'cultic'.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 07:37:43 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Really? I feel sorry for you then
Message:
Wow, Jim.
It's coming back to me now why I gave up posting many years ago - it's wonderful to get all these replys but takes more time than I usually have to give everyone a fair response.
I appreciate the time you have taken to post ( not just to my topics but over the years to so many others ) so I will try and answer best I can.

Firstly by 'healthy patriotism' do you mean an appreciation of the values of the majority of people within a country, and/or support for the laws, enjoyment of the lifestyle...?
You can tell I don't know what it means but patriotism limits these appreciations to one and only one country.
That is where I think it is similar to religion. You can support the justice system in France whilst enjoying the way the English make tea and the philosphy expressed in the American Constitution. Why do we have to align ourselves with a particular land mass and all the political and cultural values therein?
You say America is a beautiful country. From what I have seen of it I have to agree, but do you mean the landscape, the political system, the people - I presume all three. Do you mean that America is the most beautiful country in the world. That's when I would have to disagree for there are many beautiful countries and beauty comes in many forms.
You mention America's involvement in various recent conflicts, you could well be right about all of what you say, I am afraid I do not know the details of many of them but there's no doubt that there is much credit to be given for standing up to bullies that want to control people's lives as went on in Russia, Korea etc. in the past - and to go into a country to help an oppressed population regain it's freedom and dignity can only be applauded. I guess it's the 'laudable goals' that sets actions apart. If a conflict is engaged in to acquire greater power or wealth/ or because one set of people don't like the way another set of people behave, then there is no justification.
But I was really asking about something else - more of a social science query.

I think I may not have communicated my original post very well
Maybe I shouldn't have made in such a light fashion, but I did not imply anything wrong in being patriotic - just a lack of understanding - and definitely did not mean to sound anti-American - one of the countries that contain many people who I hope share the same feelings and who I feel equally, if not more so, akin to than I feel towards many of my fellow brits.
You say 'But I'm certainly not settled into this anti-government cynicism that seems so fashionable against the U.S. Too bad for you if you feel that way. '
I don't feel that way - what made you think I did, because I don't feel patriotic towards America? I don't even feel patriotic toward the country that I was born and have lived all my life in - is that really so bad? I am fiercely loyal to my friends and family and those who express values that I can identify with. I would never dream of betraying a friend and will defend the ideas of anyone I believe to be genuine and who are trying their best to follow a reasonable moral code.
I care very much about the people in America, not because they are Americans, but because they have the same sort of make up as myself, feel pain and joy, have children, think about the meaning of it all etc. etc. I care just as much about the people in many other countries.
I'm all for enjoying my roots, appreciating my culture etc. but why do we have to just pick one over all the rest?
IMHO There is a big difference between being proud of human accomplishment and being proud of a country.
The former brings us all together, the latter creates division.
best wishes
berni

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:07:40 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: All sorts of false dilemnas there, berni
Message:
Berni,

One can be patriotic and still apprecaite the value of other countries and cultures. I don't think pride is necessarily exclusive like that. I'm proud of our band's music but it doesn't mean I don't like all sorts of other bands, in town and elsewhere. I'm proud of my abilities as a musician but it doesn't mean I don't appreciate others' abilities, sometimes even more than my own.

I think what you're reacting to is the inherently comparative and, yes, competitive edge in patriotism or pride. Hey, berni, that's life. That's why the world ressurected the Olympics. People like to compete consciously, nature pits us one against each other in all realsm anyway. It's not only fun, it breeds improvement, excellence. It really does. What do you think about competition?

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:31:59 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: Patriotism - what's that all about?
Message:
Interesting that you don't mention Saudi , Congolese , Chinese , or indeed anywhere outside of the 'western' world in your list of cultures that you feel some affinity with.

I don't know any King & Country types either , that view of the world was a political construct that lasted from around 1880-1914 & then lingered until the end of Empire .

The ethics that you & your friends share come from Magna Carta , the Glorious Revolution , the Abolition of Slavery , the Sanitation Acts , the Compulsory Education Act just to name a few .

Maybe you have no pride in England because modern England is a bit of a decrepit shithole where hardly anyone seems to know how to do anything properly , too many of the population have a reading age of 9, & the best minds don't go into Politics & the Civil Service anymore because the money is no good .

In which case I agree with you.

Nevertheless I know that this country , the USA , & a few others whatever their faults & mistakes which have fucked up other people down the years are the only hope if this world is not to descend into total nightmare.

From a resident of IONA (Islands of the North Atlantic)

ps What did you make of Berlusconi's recent statements . I really don't like the guy but I thought he was dead right , just a fool to say so in public .

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:12:08 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Patriotism - what's that all about?
Message:
Hi PatD,
In trying to answer all these posts I get the feeling that my original post was not expressed very well. It was more of an attempt at understanding a feeling (patriotism) that I don't have rather than criticizing the feeling or any country.
I do ( or have in the past ) known both Saudi and Chinese people and identify with some charactistics of these and just about all cultures that I have come accross.
My point is that we are bound together by our quest for humanity and the simiarities we share as human beings rather that geographical and political boundaries.
I agree with you about the reading age of many here in England. Most of the tabloids such as the Sun and the News of the World are aimed at this majority - and they are the ill-informed masses that end up chosing who should govern us.
O.T. Did you ever see Jasper Carrot, the comedian who used to tell those 'how many does it take to change a light bulb' jokes. He started using 'how many Sun Readers' rather than Polish etc. which I thought was great - even though it caused a bit of a stir and lost him a portion of his audience.
I think Berlusconi sounds like someone who reads the Italian version of the Sun.
berni
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:55:30 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: F+#£ off Pat
Message:
We all know that Americans can't write or spell properly, even though their vocabulary is only in the double figures. This became obvious to everyone when the internet got going.
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:48:06 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: It's pronounced 'Amuhrkins'
Message:
Puhleez Dave!
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:57:50 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: Re: F+#£ off Sir Dave
Message:
Now what the hell is the other half of your ancestory, You can't just say you're only half limey and leave us in suspense.

And I make a very good cup of tea by the way. And I love scones too.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:54:51 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Thank you, PatD
Message:
Having lived in UK, I often wondered why the hell they kept criticizing themselves. I think it is because they take their accomplishments for granted. It really is a wonderful country and has a very civilized culture.

But I'm proud of all my ancestors, Dutch, French, Jewish, Irish and English and regard the US as having a little bit of all of those.

I see the good in non-western cultures but know that very little of it can hold a candle to western civilization. I like the internet and all the other trappings of western civilization so much that I don't mind having to protect it from those who wish to turn the clock back to the Dark Ages.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 00:29:12 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: English self-deprecation, Pat
Message:
Well being English as well as Irish .....and ok, proud of it (haha)

We've given the world loads of global sport including the most popular in the world (soccer), It has to be the most inventive nation on earth (so many things invented here ....marketed elsewhere , of course haha) , brilliant medics (eg Penicillen ..loads of 'etc' ), DNA,Newton,etc etc etc ad infinitum , English literature,actors,biggest empire,law and institutions spread worldwide,crap food like fish and chips and English breakfasts,aristocratic snobbery(yuck),Mathematicians,spies,
conversations about the weather,hypocricy (an Arab friend of mine found that an endearing Ebglish trait haha),social tolerance,sycophancy toward USA 'cos we know we need them(haha),in spite of tons of problems one of the most civilised multi-cultural societies around ...need I go on

we criticize ourselves so much because we can't really believe that an over crowded little island of getting on 60 million people, living in a lush green and beautiful land with a lousy climate , can be so fucking BRILLIANT :}

.....and did those feet, in ancient times :)

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 04:49:53 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Dermot
Subject: Don't forget Darwin
Message:
The dangerous idea that changed the world forever (though half the world has some catching up to do...)

Hey Dermot - loved your characterisation of these benighted isles. If you are half-Irish, you would feel right at home here in Liverpool (if you don't know it already.) I'm sitting here in the arse-end of the wonderfully multicultural L8, urban blight and all, John Peel's Home Truths on BBC Radio Four. Moley snoozing, kids visiting, kettle on. Out to buy the Guardian shortly. Later we're going conkering in Sefton Park, just round the corner. Crumpets and Marmite for tea. Hmm.. And right now I feel sorry for just about everybody else on the planet.
[ Charlie is my darwin... ]

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:56:26 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yep, Charlie too
Message:
Hi Nige

Your domestic life sounds very 'Wallace and Gromity ' :)

Yeah, whack, I know the pool is half Irish.....funnily enough I've only been there once when I was a kid....maybe one day I'll pop in.

Hve you and Moley met Magiclara? She's there too//////

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:35:52 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Yep, Charlie too
Message:
Hi dermot
I have met Nige and Moley we live very near each other but only met through the forums. I agree with what Nige says about Liverpool my adopted home and the sun shines lots here too. I also agree with Berni in a post below about enjoying the good things about everywhere you are, but this is the best place I have ever lived urban blight warts and all.
Love Magiclara
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 19:29:53 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Hi Magiclara
Message:
It's weird isn't it , affinity with places? When I was despatched to Leicester ashram in '74/75 (one of the two) I immediately felt at home....a sort of dejavu ....didn't stay in the asram long but lived in Leicester till 1990. There was nothing really special or glamourous about the place but I felt so at home there.About 300 000 pop with a third Indian , plus others too ...Poles, Yugoslavs etc.

As I said, if I pass that way I'll look ya'll up for a cup of tea and a chat.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:55:37 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Don't forget Darwin
Message:
Hi Nigel,
Thanks for the link.
I love your picture of an afternoon in England ( although I don't like marmite myself ) and too enjoy such delights as cream teas, the BBC, the pubs, the corner shops (the few that have survived) etc. etc.
But I also enjoy walking down the lane on a sunny morning in a beautiful french village to buy a baguette at the boulangerie, or going to a nice restaurant for a pizza and to enjoy the ambience when I am in Italy, or to spend the evening enjoying local musicians playing whilst drinking Guiness in an Irish pub, or... you know what I mean.
I don't think we should associate what we are used to in our society, the things that make us feel all cosy etc. with any one country. If you found yourself in France or Prague or many other civilised cities/countries, you would probably make the best of it and become attached to certain aspects of the life style.
All I was saying is that we have a much stronger connection to each other as humans than those that come about because we inhabit the same country.
I believe there is network of people that transcend national boundaries and will, hopefully eventually make the world a more unified place.
Of course it would help if those of us who could afford it helped those that are starving, and then maybe give them a computer or two so they can join in with the rest of us.
berni
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:00:55 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Sorry but
Message:
The f+*£ off was for you Pat. I got confused. I thought since you are a South African opportunist selling rice and nut-burgers to Americans with more money than sense, you were fair game.
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:09:55 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: You're in a rude mood, Dave
Message:
Actually I take your insult as a comliment. I am a South African opportunist but I don't sell rice and nutburgers. I leave that to the earth-shoe crowd in Belsize Park. I sell great food and good wine.
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:41:57 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: You're in a rude mood, Dave
Message:
Where do they sell nutburgers in Belsize Park? It seems to be all wine bars and such these days.
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 04:05:10 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Sorry, Peg, I used BP
Message:
.....because that's the last place I lived in London 22 years ago and actually there were no nutburger joints there then either.

The one I managed was on Baker Street and was owned in part by Yehudi Mehuhin (''Good morning, staff,'' he would say in his elegant English accent in spite of being a San Franciscan as was Isaac Stern who died earlier this week.) I rode my bicycle through Regent's Park to work everyday.

I was trying to think of what the earthshoe, veggie burger neighbor hood in London would be and nearly picked Camden Town but suddenly had doubts because I've been away for too long.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:16:07 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: You did right, of course
Message:
to take my remarks as a ''comliment''. Is that what you put on your rice? All insulting remarks from me should be taken as the ramblings of a mad half Anglo-Saxon with a warped sense of humour.

I don't mean a word of it to be taken seriously.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:44:39 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Compliment not comliment
Message:
or even condiment. So, from now on I'll take you with a pinch of salt especially when you pepper me with insults.
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:57:09 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Berlusconi
Message:
He sounds dangerously righteous to me.
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:08:42 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Berlusconi
Message:
I lived in Italy 85-95 & I don't like the guy , mind you I don't like any Italian politicians ; Italy is a borderline Democratic country riddled with the kind of corruption that makes our own brown envelopes scandals a joke.

I know who he was speaking to in his own country when he said those things & why , but that doesn't mean he wasn't right.

Societies where the law is separate from the government ,the church is separate from the state , & there are structures which can resolve disputes between different groups so that they can compromise , are superior to societies where : the law is what the church says , the government pays lip service to the church , & disputes between different groups are resolved by nose to nose confrontation where the winner takes all.

By groups I mean farmers v developers , or single mothers v family valuers , or tenants v landlords.

I couldn't care less what religion people follow but if Muslims want to be taken seriously as people who can contribute to the improvement of mankind then they'd better start talking to each other about how they can improve their governments .

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:34:07 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Berlusconi
Message:
Societies where the law is separate from the government ,the church is separate from the state , & there are structures which can resolve disputes between different groups so that they can compromise , are superior to societies where : the law is what the church says , the government pays lip service to the church , & disputes between different groups are resolved by nose to nose confrontation where the winner takes all.

By groups I mean farmers v developers , or single mothers v family valuers , or tenants v landlords.

Well I suppose I agree with you but how do we settle This dispute.. there is no world government. Not nose to nose I hope.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 18:51:58 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: Patriotism - what's that all about?
Message:
I have to agree, Berni. I live in America but see the government of the United States as a vehicle for corporations to prosper, and impinge a way of life that is anything but free.

Most people like to belong to something good; a good club, a good tribe, a good school. Sometimes it's really just an attempt to feel better by identifying with something that's successful or righteous. But for any organization to truly claim pride it has to be managable and it has to take a regular moral inventory, own up to its mistakes and learn from them.

The U.S. is so large, and so diverse in every quality, that it's almost meaningless to ascribe to it as some kind of organism. There's enough visible corruption in its history, as well as currently, that holding it up as a beacon to be admired, is sort of silly.

It's usually better to let others sing your praises and not toot your own horn, but in the U.S. the dumbest, most vacuous and least modest people are the quickest to grab the flag.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:28:28 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Somebody I didn't upset - phew!
Message:
Thanks Rick,
I am used to not fitting in too well ( see my post above ) but after responding to all the previous posts it's nice not to have to try and explain my feelings again.
You make some good points e.g.
' for any organization to truly claim pride it has to be managable '
I have worked for a few companies ( mainly in the Education sector ) of around a thousand employees and it was never clear, despite mission statements etc., what was going on except that there were a lot of so-called consultants whose prime concern was making a fortune for themselves rather than providing a public servic,whilst the workers slaved away doing the best job they could for a comparative pittance.
I think most countries are the same
One-World berni
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 09:52:31 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Didn't upset me
Message:
in the slightest Berni.

I understand completely where you're coming from.

I'm proud of my Irish and English roots ....but of those roots I know full well the good,bad,funny,tragic,inspiring, depressing aspects of them .....AND feel the same about many other countries.

My pride is always flavoured with a pinch of salt...

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 20:50:14 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Patriotism - what's that all about?
Message:
Rick:

So, you're basically willing to sit on your butt and let someone else defend the principles you take for granted. I mean, I assume you must be taking them for granted since they appear to be invisible to you. I'm talking about such things as free speech, habeas corpus, presumption of innocense, right to trial by jury, right to confront an accuser, to choose your representatives, to freely associate, freedom from unlawful search and seizure, freedom to travel and relocate. People gave their lives for these, more than once. Not for 'corporations' but for those principles. And besides all that, you have the privilege of living in an economy that's able to produce a pencil, a computer or a bicycle at reasonable cost, where you can get any information you need within moments, and where you can live your life in relative security from the boogey man. Well, the boogey man is just outside the gates, or he's inside the gates and roaming freely.

It's usually better to let others sing your praises and not toot your own horn, but in the U.S. the dumbest, most vacuous and least modest people are the quickest to grab the flag.

I'm sure you didn't mean to sound this elitist, did you?

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:12:31 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Hey Scott , tell the white House
Message:
to keep their fucking selfish politics to themselves and protect the special forces who may fucking getting killed, for the sake of political spin. TELL THEM TO SHOW SOME PATRIOTISM.

Over here. analysts, politicians and military are gobsmacked that the white house today LEAKED to the US public ( so the public will think / know that BUSH is doing something )that the US & British special forces have been in Afghanistan for the last two weeks and helicopters are flying them in and out. It's reckoned here that the various small teams are put at greater risk for no reason.

Listen, didn't you learn from Vietnam ? ......the Brits EXPLAINED EVERYTHING .....about winning in the jungle .....we gave you all the details of the successful Malaya jungle campaign ......what do you do? Go there with big loud voices, drugged up to fuck and become a sitting target.

Now those big loud voices are putting the SAS at risk .....I don't know .....some allies, you just can't trust em. :)

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:33:48 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Next time I ask for a cup of sugar.
Message:
Do you mind telling me why you think they're telling the truth about the details? Who's doing all this reckoning you're talking about? I think one could surmise that there are special forces there, but beyond that it's anyone's guess. Maybe they're going in by helicopter, and maybe Scottie's beaming them in. Anyway, next time I drop by the Whitehouse I'll give them your message.
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:42:22 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Next time I ask for a cup of sugar.
Message:
It was plastered all over Netscape and probably other US media that the Green Berets, Seals and SAS were in.

Over here one of the most respected diplomatic editors (25yrs standing)said it was leaked from the white House and in all his years had never known anything so stupid. He was backed up by Brit military.

I don't know too much about US special forces but over here they say nothing, name nothing , do nothing to alert the enemy of anything. Secrecy being part of the arsenal .....pretty basic stuff really.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 00:01:21 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Next time I ask for a cup of sugar.
Message:
It was plastered all over Netscape and probably other US media that the Green Berets, Seals and SAS were in.

Well then...

Over here one of the most respected diplomatic editors (25yrs standing)said it was leaked from the white House and in all his years had never known anything so stupid. He was backed up by Brit military.

I admit, that sounds pretty convincing. I understand the same source indicates they're there to do recon for a later ground invasion. But if a respected British journalist says it, well... you know.

I don't know too much about US special forces but over here they say nothing, name nothing , do nothing to alert the enemy of anything. Secrecy being part of the arsenal .....pretty basic stuff really.

And that would be why the Germans thought Patton was going to invade at Calet?

I don't really know, of course. But it seems to me that any news leaked by the Whitehouse at a time like this has to be a little suspect. You have to ask yourself why they'd leak something that obvious. But I'll keep my eyes open. Maybe you have something.

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 00:35:54 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I'm only being half serious
Message:
though I haven't embellished anything.

Like you say .....we'll see.

it's just that over here the SAS is always shrouded in total, absolute secrecy.....

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 15:40:00 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: You can't keep secrets in US, Dermot
Message:
Everybody yaks too much. It's the real national passtime. Also we're open and not much given to fearing stuff or hiding it.

Yank and Brit special forces have been in Afghanistan since Sept 12th.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 16:37:54 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: 3 special services captured by Taliban
Message:
according to an Arabic news service, 3 American special services have been captured .Probably propaganda bullshit. The Brit Ministry of Defence is not saying if the SAS are in there.Typical !

A US govt official was quoted as saying ' The Brits do this stuff better than us' My knee jerk reaction was one of pride. Yuck how perverted. Why did I identify with that? Good to be aware of your kneejerks though :)

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 16:47:35 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: My knee-jerk reaction when I heard
Message:
...was to pray for our soldiers and then I realized that I have no god to pray to anymore. But I'll say a prayer for them and the loved ones anyway because right now they are sacrificing their lives for me.
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 18:22:25 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Very true Pat [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 21:49:42 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Patriotism - what's that all about?
Message:
So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell, blue skies from pain,
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil,
Do you think you can tell?

And did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange a walk-on part in the war
For a lead role in a cage?

How I wish, how I wish you were here,
We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl,
Year after year,
Running over the same ground, what have we found?
The same old fears,
Wish you were here.

Wish You Were Here
by David Gilmour and Roger Waters
as performed by Pink Floyd

You're being a bit of a church lady. I'm not sure what you think I should do... wave the flag? Give lip service? Show appreciation? How about participation?

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 00:18:08 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Actually
Message:
I'm not sure what you think I should do... wave the flag? Give lip service? Show appreciation? How about participation?

Try a little research into just what all the flag waving is about, instead of assuming it's all ignorant herd behavior. Beats lip service. To get in the mood you could try showing some appreciation (never anything wrong with that), or you might see if there's a way to make some sort of contribution. Don't think anyone needs you just yet though. Maybe that's the trouble.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 04:22:25 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Actually
Message:
Actually, Scott, you might want to do some research yourself. Start with the total number of Africans (including their offspring) who lived as slaves in the United States. When you're done, look into those who later lived under segregation laws until the 1960's.

Then, while you still have some of that white self-righteous indignation, look into how many Native Americans were displaced during the settlement of the United States, and the nature of their fate.

Since I know there's still much of your arrogant pride to go around, consider all those working-class young men who gave their lives in Viet Nam, in a senseless, stupid war.

And now, even though you still feel proud and patriotic that you got yours, and others could have theirs (if only, _____ fill in the blank), think about all those who the principles of freedom and justice for all don't apply to, despite what it says in the documents.

Think about how empty a gesture it is to wave a flag that symbolizes a country, hypocritical and divisive, that pillages the world for the comfort of its privileged few.

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Date: Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 02:51:58 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: What an impotent foolish diatribe
Message:
You asked what I thought you ought to do, so I gave you an honest and sincere answer. Then it seems you want to discuss 'The American Dilemma' on the assumption that you know more about it than I, or that your heart is in the right place and I'm tainted, or something. Back to square one, buddy. You aren't informing me, and you're revealing your own level of arrogance and ignorance. There's a word for that, I think.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 23:46:06 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Patriotism - what's that all about?
Message:
Uhm... huh? I'm being a 'church lady' to suggest you stop taking liberty for granted? What sort of sophomoric crap is that? And while your at the sophomoric crap, why don't you quote Pink Floyd vebatim? Oops, sorry!
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 22:57:40 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Yep, wave that flag Rick haha [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 17:20:23 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Foot in the Mouth Award OT
Message:
Crosby, Stills and Nash were interviewed shortly after a concert they gave following the Sept. 11th incidents. They were asked if they worried about an attack during their performance. Graham Nash answered 'No, we're not too worried... we think our Karma is pretty good.'
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 18:44:56 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Rick
Subject: 'Teach your children well...'?
Message:
Jeez, has that fug-brained, hippie twerp a lot to learn. Yuk..
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 15:51:56 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Alternative reporting
Message:
A couple of weeks ago, Gerry was asking about a good source of alternative reporting, more sober minded and less concerned with sponsor approval. I posted a link to Pacifica Radio, but that's really only good for giving you one of their sister stations in your area to listen to. If you want something to read, than The Nation is probably the best that the states has to offer, that I know of. If anybody else knows of good alternatives to mainstream media that seeks to inform rather than incite, please let us know and post a link to it. Meanwhile, here's a link to...

The Nation

The Nation will not be the organ of any party, sect, or body. It will, on the contrary, make an earnest effort to bring to the discussion of political and social questions a really critical spirit, and to wage war upon the vices of violence, exaggeration, and misrepresentation by which so much of the political writing of the day is marred.

-- from The Nation's founding prospectus, 1865

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 00:23:00 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Here's another good one
Message:
I cannot claim credit, because I was pointed here by Suedoula when she posted one of the articles.

Commondreams. It's great!
[ Common Dreams ]

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 16:35:05 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Alternative reporting
Message:
Thanks Jerry

I'm not too familiar with most of the commentators. I enjoy a lot of Hitchens pieces. He often writes for publications over here. He's English but perhaps he's now a US citizen,I'm not sure.

I've bookmarked the site anyway.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 11:24:29 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Socialist Viewpoint, for what it's worth...
Message:
The White House has been caught in a lie about the alleged terrorist threat against Air Force One which it had cited as the reason for President Bush’s absence from Washington for most of September 11. According to reports by CBS News and the Washington Post, White House officials have stated that the Secret Service never received a phone call warning of a direct threat to the president’s airplane. The government’s reversal has gone largely unreported in the media.
[ White House lied about threat to Air Force One ]
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 13:17:40 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I was always a bit doubtful Gerry
Message:
I just took it at as Presidential image control but didn't want to make a big deal about it....there's a limit to my 'Un-American' activities....I wouldn't want to be haunted by the ghost of the venerable Senator McCarthy....no sir ! :)
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 16:15:58 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: The SF Bay Guardian
Message:
This weekly often has good exposes of government cover-ups if you can stand the knee-jerk leftie stuff.
[ The SF Bay Guardian ]
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 16:31:41 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Thanks Pat
Message:
Got a few yank publications bookmarked now, both right and left.

I must say a lot of the print stuff is pretty good ....apart from CNN , I find the US mainstream tv news dire.The bulletins are so speedy...and as for international content ....

When I was at Longbeach 96 , I flipped through the myriad channels of local and national stuff and couldn't realate to much . I'm sure though if I actually lived over there as opposed to a lightning visit I'd suss out the best of all the media.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 15:18:48 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 'the safest of all places'
Message:
'the safest of all places'

After reading the quote below, who can seriously doubt that the gist of M's message is quite simply to persuade people to regress into an infantile, trusting, womb-like state?

And why should that be a bad thing, some might ask?

It's bad because, apart from the fact that it's inherently escapist in its attempt to get people to reject the real world that we live in, alongside that rejection of reality, Maharaji is unrealistically trying to make us dependent on him.

In the process of discovering what this experience of M's version of 'Knowledge' actually is, aspirants are also badgered to give in to the very persuasive demands of a master conman who is also selling the idea that you, as a recipient of (his?) 'knowledge' you therefore also owe him a debt of gratitude - a debt which is to him and him alone. He tries to persuade people that he has the keys to an internal heaven-like state which, he would like you to think, 'automatically' puts you in his debt. Don't forget that this is the guy who said 'God is great, but greater is Guru, because he shows you God'.

I think the only people who still believe themselves to be in his debt are the ones who think they need a father-figure to be subservient and 'cow-tow' to in their lives. For some reason the Maha thinks he's suited for the job. I wonder how many hundreds of thousands (well, those were the kind of numbers DLM liked to throw about in the past, and EV still does, so who am I to doubt them?) of those who took 'knowledge', became 'premies' and then have moved on to find their own focus and responsibility in their lives - how many of those former premies who now are independent of the Maha, would attest to the fact that we live, breathe and have our being - and have the capability of enjoying life, breath, existence, call it what you will, - all WITHOUT the need for any self-styled guru, master or 'perfect' master to feel indebted to. The only true debt of gratitude should be first and foremost to our parents, who gave us life in the first place. Those who believe in a God would no doubt include 'him' in the equation.

Quite simply, the doctor or midwife who delivered you might have enabled you to start breathing on the first day of your life. But how many of us think that we should be indebted to them for the rest of our lives? Maharaji sees himself as some kind of cosmic midwife, but he won't let any of his followers forget that the 'slap' of receiving knowledge means you OWE him. Big time. And forever. (At least that's what he'd like PWKs to think.

'Breathe, be happy, and owe me' seems to be the foundation of his message. The first two parts sound OK, it's the third that people should watch out for.

Here's the quote:

In the middle of a finite world

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Alexandria, 18th June 2000

'Feel what is within you, and accept that
feeling. I'm not talking about blind faith.
I'm not saying you should believe in this.
No. I want you to experience it. I want
you to know it. I want you to
understand it. It is so simple. It is not
complicated. In every breath, there is a
dance. You can feel it.

Just as that cosmic dance is happening
outside - the clouds moving with the sun, the moon, and the
stars; the waves on the beach; the waves on the surface of the
ocean; the wind blowing and moving the trees. Somewhere, it's
cold, somewhere, it's warm. Somewhere, it's breezy, and
somewhere, it's still - inside of me, too, my winds are blowing,
my waves inside are dancing. I, too, have a universe. And
Knowledge is the bridge that can allow me to feel that universe. I
close my eyes. It's the simplest thing I can do. I close my eyes, I
let my focus go within, and Knowledge does a beautiful job of
taking my focus inside. I feel a split. I feel a difference between
this world and what I am feeling. Maybe I am afraid to let go to
that feeling inside. But should I be? It is the safest of all places.

This is where there are no hindrances. This is
where silence resides, not the noise. As when a
musician touches the string of a guitar, it sounds
melodic. Isn't it so? And when you touch cool
waters, you feel the refreshment. Is it not so?
And when I go within me, when I go inside, I am
at peace. Is it not so? There are all my worries,
there are all my problems, there are all my
troubles, there are all my perils, and there are all
my doubts. And within me, there are no doubts,
there are no perils, there are no troubles, there
are no problems. There's just a joy. And my heart - not my mind
- bears witness to it again and again and again.'

from http://www.evnewsletter.org/archive/index.php (don't forget to click on 'Vol 1' or 'Vol 2'

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 17:02:37 (EDT)
From: the other BoB
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Maharaji is Brave and Wise
Message:
..to reveal such personal details such as
'inside of me, too, my winds are blowing
'
and such wisdom as
'Somewhere, it's
cold, somewhere, it's warm
'

and both in the same sentence.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 15:48:53 (EDT)
From: Julian
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Why?
Message:
Why do people post Maharaji's satsangs here? What's the point? I thought this was an ex-premie forum. Who wants to read all that crap?
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 17:18:18 (EDT)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Julian
Subject: it is good
Message:
CQ does an excellent job disecting the bs and helping people get out of the cult. Think about it. How many of us left because some people took their time to post and explain mahalard bs? Many, I am one of them.

'Satsang' in that way is good. Satsang coming from premies is truly bs and should not be allowed.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 16:07:13 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Julian
Subject: Re: Why
Message:
You and I recognise it as 'crap' Julian, but it's important also to know why it's crap.

For that purpose, it's a necessary evil to have to quote the man, distasteful though that may be to those who have only recently left the fold of Maha-worship.

By quoting him I'm really not trying to promote him - though I can understand why you might think that I am. Don't forget that many exes who read and post here are accused of 'living in the past' - and in giving up-to-date examples of M's message it should become all the more clear that his message really is as suspect as it ever was.

I appreciate how you must feel, Julian. When I first found this site (late '98) I couldn't stand people reminding me of the kind of crap I had swallowed over twenty years before.

Perhaps I should have posted it on the pro-Maha, pro-premie, 'Life is Great' site.

Then again, if you don't like what I've quoted the Maha as saying, perhaps it might be somewhat therapeutic for you to post your own objections about what he says.

When you're ready, that is.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 22:07:43 (EDT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: my objections are legion
Message:
Hi cq,

I did feel a bit queasy reading that quote, but I am now quite capable and ready to articulate an objection.

I remember seeing David Bowie interviewed once, the interviewer asked with a measure of deference how he wrote his lyrics; at the time people would actually sit around and discuss the import of what he was saying in his songs. David smiled and said he cut out interesting looking words from magazines etc, and then jumbled them together and made something that sounded good.

I have a very strong objection to Mr Rawat sitting up on a stage and spouting a lot of stuff that people can consider to have extraordinary import in their lives, when he has given no more thought or understanding to his speech than Mr Bowie gave to his songwriting.

I think this is irresponsible and fatuous to say the least. He should learn from David Bowie's example and be more honest about himself, imo.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 14:57:11 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Why successful premies are successful
Message:
The current crop of premies trying to confront the ex viewpoint (without daring to openly confront exes), all appear to be successful in their personal careers, and make a point of telling the world this to prove that they are not in a cult. I strongly suspect that they ascribe their success to Maharaji's grace, rather than their own abilities or simple good fortune.

I don't know the Andersons or Glasser, but Jon Cainer used to be a good friend of mine, and I know that his success is due to sheer persistence on his part in trying to get rich. I don't mind talking about him because I believe the story about him being at the meeting where Maharaji supposedly ordered the attack on exes.

Anyway, back in Leeds Jon (or Mad Jon as he was known) was always trying some new money making scheme. He had a failed printing business, a failed alfalfa sprout production business, he wrote a junk food vegetarian cooking book, and finally broke in to the newspaper astrology business. Sheer persistence got him to the top of his somewhat ignoble field. Grace never came into it, but every month a large cheque wings its way across the pond to Malibu.

It's a funny old world.

John.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 15:42:36 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Why successful premies are successful
Message:
Could you tell me more about the meeting that you mentioned where M ordered the attack on exes. Was this the cac attack or something else.
I saw Cainers column in a paper. He was talking about breath awareness setting human beings apart form animals on an astrology page. I didn't know he was a premie when I read it.
Thanks magiclara
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:57:19 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Re: Why successful premies are successful
Message:
There were two anonymous reports on the ex-premie forums. The first, shortly after Amaroo, said that Maharaji had a private meeting at Amaroo with a group of people described as his 'biographers'. The second report, about a month ago claimed that at that meeting Maharaji ordered a direct counter attack against ex-premies on the internet. Since then we've had a number of sites criticising either mildly or more strongly exes and their personal lives. None of these sites actually has the courage to link to exes' sites to allow readers to judge for themselves.

Anyway, Jon Cainer was at that meeting. A little more about Jon. He was one of the founders of www.enjoyinglife.org and was proud of this, and happy to put his name to it, as well as make several contributions under his own name. UK newspapers started taking an interest and taking the piss, and he suddenly announced he was removing all evidence of his involvement, and also strongly suggested he was leaving the cult. This was of course a lie. I still have his contributions to ELK if anyone is interested.

John.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 08:03:36 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: sucessful premies and sleep
Message:
Thanks for that I would be interested to read the stuff. I was looking at an insomnia website and miragey's music tech is listed as an aid to sleep. I wonder if he knows his secret sacred tech is on the www alongside such strategies as wiggling your toes and counting sheep.
Magiclara
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:36:04 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: John is referring to the CAC attack [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 13:39:14 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I am curious......
Message:
about how many relationships rawat has destroyed or damaged beyond repair. Not just couples, but relationships between parents and offspring, friends, people and their work, people and their true sense of self. He cripples his followers by constantly telling them they need a 'living master', aka, him. This is criminal. How can he get by with this? The destruction of a relationship with another person is despicable, but he is also destroying their sense of independent self, and that is unforgivable.
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