Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 26, 2001 To: Oct 01, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


hamzen -:- Pacifism and collective grief -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:24:53 (EDT)
__ Helen -:- Re: Pacifism and collective grief -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:59:53 (EDT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Re: Pacifism and collective grief -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:23:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Hamzen -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 10:17:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Nail on the head there, Katie! -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 19:56:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- On further reflection, tho -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 00:55:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: On further reflection, tho -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 08:06:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Re: Pacifism and collective grief -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 23:22:51 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks for that, Helen -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:04:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Re: Thanks for that, Helen -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 23:26:28 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Thanks so much, Ham -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:56:36 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Fame at last Jim -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 10:39:34 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- 50 Caliber letter Jimmie [nt] -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 16:51:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, they published it! -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:32:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- and now they feel so righteous -:- Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:24:20 (EDT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Another classic one here for you -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 22:13:00 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Too funny, Jim -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:07:43 (EDT)
__ __ Helen -:- Re: Thanks so much, Ham -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:02:13 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Pacifism and collective grief -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:27:58 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Pacifism and collective grief -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 00:41:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- The women of the middle east -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 21:34:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: The women of the middle east -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 12:22:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I'm not a real hawk, Scott -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:09:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I'm not a traditional hawk either. -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 08:09:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: I'm not a traditional hawk either. -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 14:00:05 (EDT)

David 2 -:- yacht -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 17:18:35 (EDT)
__ such -:- Re: yacht is for the use of the anon 'owner' -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:33:30 (EDT)

Suedoula -:- Some people are too weird -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 16:31:34 (EDT)
__ Stonor -:- Emotional correctness' - Dianaism -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 17:55:17 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave }( -:- Brilliant article there, Stonor and my sin -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 06:48:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's really touching, Dave -- just beautiful -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 11:56:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I don't do jokes -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 12:22:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Well I'm an old weepy mush head -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 20:05:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I'll reply to this post at the top of the forum [nt] -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 21:27:42 (EDT)
__ __ Suedoula -:- Re: Emotional correctness' - Dianaism -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:10:28 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Some people are too weird -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 16:43:39 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Figuring Out the People... -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 15:38:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Wondered where you were, girl? [nt] -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 20:01:54 (EDT)
__ __ Suedoula -:- Re: Some people are too weird -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:03:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- No one can accuse Yanks of being -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:15:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Suedoula -:- Re: No one can accuse Yanks of being -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 07:45:05 (EDT)

Tim G -:- WAR on Dogmatism? -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 16:19:36 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Moral masturbation -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:10:08 (EDT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Re: Moral masturbation -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:31:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, the Dalai Lama IS at fault -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:52:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: Yes, the Dalai Lama IS at fault -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:20:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: Moral masturbation -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:33:48 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: WAR on isms? -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 16:33:16 (EDT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Re: WAR on isms? -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 17:54:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- I hear you, brother -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 01:12:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- The difference is you're a pessimist -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:33:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- I'm not gonna belabour the point Pat -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:34:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Okay, Ham, I'm an ostrich -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:52:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Last one on this Pat -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:00:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Last one on this, Ham -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:21:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Careful Pat re Bangladeshis -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:47:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- ham, San Francisco: Green City -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 19:48:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Careful re Bangladeshis -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 00:08:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: WAR on isms? -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:18:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Tim, two weks ago I called for appeasement -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:09:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: Tim, two weks ago I called for appeasement -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:30:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I can't stand Bush -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:35:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- It would be great Tim -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:39:37 (EDT)

Joe -:- Things I can't stop thinking ....WTC -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 13:56:19 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Thanks, Joe -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:33:07 (EDT)
__ Helen -:- Re: Things I can't stop thinking ....WTC -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 17:51:11 (EDT)
__ __ david m -:- Re: Nice to read your posts -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 08:58:01 (EDT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Hi Helen! -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:16:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Re: Hi Helen! -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 23:34:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks for the update! -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:38:27 (EDT)
__ __ silvia -:- Dear Helen -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:08:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Re: Dear Helen -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 23:41:05 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Hi Helen -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:25:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Hi Joe -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 23:40:07 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- great post, Joe -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 15:53:36 (EDT)
__ Francesca :C) -:- I share your feelings -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 15:05:18 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- Bizarre symptoms -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 15:27:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Richard, Francesca, Joe, et al. - PTSS -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 12:49:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks Katie :) [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 00:59:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- To postie and everyone -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:09:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Take Care Richard -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:13:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Thanks Joe, Francesca, Joy and all -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 00:20:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joy -:- Wish I could give you all a hug -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 17:54:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I send you a hug, Joy -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:40:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Thanks, Pat -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:10:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- We can't go on meeting like this -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:26:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hugs to you Joy -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:17:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Hi Joe -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:02:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- How about Nanci Griffith?? -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 18:50:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You're up early, Joy -:- Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:21:40 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Defining Moment -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 15:23:34 (EDT)
__ Chuck S. -:- You've got lots of company... -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 14:40:05 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Joe, did you see that graph in Chronicle -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 14:23:39 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Yeah, I saw that. -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:19:20 (EDT)
__ __ PatD -:- When war gets personal -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 16:31:35 (EDT)

cq -:- The Orwell connection -:- Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 07:24:24 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:24:53 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Pacifism and collective grief
Message:
Thank goodness for the thread Joe started, which hasn't been soiled by some of the other posts I've seen around here recently.

I've been appalled at the lack of sensitivity toward the obvious collective grief that most americans are going through at the moment, but especially in the immediate aftermath of the attack.
Made me ashamed to be an anti-capitalist.

Why is it that most of us anti's & greenies are so poor at communicating I wonder?
In my years in the green movement it always struck me how 'they' not getting the message were always totally to blame, yet the primary issue of communication being about getting a message over was completely lost.

The pacifist reaction here just componded that for me.
A complete unawareness of the the cold & 'calculated' nature of the attack, that was meant to hit the heart of the culture, not just take lives and create disruption.

Anybody with any ideas on this would be gratefully received, because I'm completely at a loss.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:59:53 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Pacifism and collective grief
Message:
Dearest Hamzen,
I also have been terribly hurt by the anti-American sentiment here and on another forum I am active in. How did we go from grieving and shock into blaming the U.S. for this? I went from reeling from grief to defending the U.S. and never had time to catch my breath. Tuesday the 11th started off for me with a co-worker flying into the office screaming 'that fucking plane went over my fucking truck, I saw that fucking plane go into the Pentagon.' It was downhill from there.

One of the first things my Aussie cousin did was to send a very sweet letter making sure her American cousins were ok, and then send a tasteless email attachment making fun of Bush. The timing couldn't have been worse.Also the bogus Nostradomas prophecy emails in my mailbox turned my stomach--some people actually think this is sort of fun!

It's been horrible, and I have found that out of a sort of stress reaction, I have turned into the biggest patriotic person this world has ever seen. I am terrified this all all erupt into WWIII, but I am not an absolutist pacifist and I think we do need to track these terrorists down and kill them. Yes I am very, very angry.

I wish that people would exercise more sensitivity and I also wish that they would read the newspaper and try to use critical thinking and facts to lend to the debate, not just resort to the sort of 'the U.S. had this coming to them, after all it's been engaging in terrorism for years.' It's ripping my heart out to see this sort of reaction. It really is.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:23:59 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Re: Pacifism and collective grief
Message:
Awww, that's exactly the kind of stuff, it's sick and serves no point at all.
The kind of comments that are guaranteed to rAise peoples anger and make the u.s more likely to react indiscriminately, not just insensitive, but brainless.

What has struck me is the great restraint & dignity being shown, not just in the personal stories like yours, but politically too.
Bin Laden/whoever would have been certain that such a calculated act would guarantee instant responses, so that's the first part he's lost out on.

Did you know sex, is no longer no1 keyword on internet search engines, since the wtc it's been nostradamus!!!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 10:17:06 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Thanks, Hamzen
Message:
This situation has really made me understand how many people in both the US and other countries really dislike the US, have a very generalized and derogatory view of the US government, and have some very negative generalizations about 'average Americans'. The political rhetoric on here and elsewhere directly after the attacks made me feel really bad - although many people did tone it down when I said they were making me depressed (and I appreciate this very much.)

I realize that US actions in the world have caused many problems. However, as I told people, I didn't need to hear about this right after the attack - that was 'blaming the victim' to the max, and made me feel horrible. And I don't think people in the US are unaware of the mistakes the US has made, as many assume - at least some of the US news media, for example, has begun to air programs about the effect of past US actions in the middle east have caused the present situation.

Part of the problem I see is that many people in the world expect the US to act as an authority figure. If the US doesn't interfere in other countries they are called isolationist and uncaring - if they do, even for humanitarian reasons, they get criticized for the outcome. I don't feel that there is any 'correct' way to handle the current situation - and I know there will be negative fall-out no matter what the US does - even if it does nothing. So I do feel that people - whether here or in the US - need to examine their expectations of the US government.

I appreciate your saying that the US government HAS acted with restraint - at least for the present - depite many predictions that they would not. This shows, at least to me, that perhaps the US leadership in the past has learned from the past. I am very glad that I don't have to make the kinds of decisions that Bush and his advisors are making now. I have tried to educate myself about the situation in the Middle East, but it is so complex that I don't see that there IS any 'right' thing to do.

Re pacifists and the left: the thing that has always frustrated me about the American left (can't speak about other countries) is that they appear to fight more among themselves, or to criticize others, than try and work together for positive and real change. I used to get 'The Nation', which I guess is a pretty good example of the left press in the US, but got so sick of them focusing on how bad Clinton was when he was running for president the first time that I cancelled my subscription. I am not sure what they expected to acheive by this - elect George Bush the senior? Sure seemed like it to me.

For example, in the past election, if people in Florida had not voted for Nader, Gore would likely be president now. I know Gore was on the moderate side of conservatism, and I know many people who voted for Nader were actually OK with a Bush win, because they thought 'it would move the Democratic Party in the US towards the left', but I think some of those people have to face the fact that they are now responsible for George Bush being in office at this time.

Anyway, lots of thoughts here and not too coherent, but thanks again.
Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 19:56:32 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Nail on the head there, Katie!
Message:
This part especially:

Part of the problem I see is that many people in the world expect the US to act as an authority figure. If the US doesn't interfere in other countries they are called isolationist and uncaring - if they do, even for humanitarian reasons, they get criticized for the outcome. I don't feel that there is any 'correct' way to handle the current situation - and I know there will be negative fall-out no matter what the US does - even if it does nothing. So I do feel that people - whether here or in the US - need to examine their expectations of the US government.

I have come to the conclusion that the US did not always act in a vacuum, purely in self-interest, and that a lot of countries that didn't have the bucks or the oomph said 'Go get 'em!' or whatever. It is true that damned if ya do and damned if ya don't situations arise because of the influence and stature of the US.

And the Gore-Nader thing, yeah. With you all the way on that one. I have changed a lot in my old age. In my home state I've seen the need for a governor to get some cooperation on either side of the aisle. That was one of Jerry Brown's big problems, according to the pundits -- even if the ideas were good ones, they were too far off of the status quo. People were just not going to go there, or put differently, there was no way to get to there from here. Radical change breeds instability, but most of the time it just doesn't happen. It's too far of a reach.

Bests to you,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 00:55:38 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: On further reflection, tho
Message:
Katie,

One difference in my reaction and yours is that I didn't (and don't)mind hearing criticism of the US government, its policies or pres. Bush. It is very hard for me to cultivate any compassion for that horrible little man, but I keep trying. Of course, one easy technique is to mentally put him side by side with Osama bin Laden. In that context, I can REALLY like Bush.

I guess I just don't equate the people who died, who are all individuals to me, with a government, its policies, and its leaders. One is very personal and human. The other is just power games. But I do understand that it is a drag to have the same old leftist tune get drug out as a knee jerk reaction to the event. So I guess I'm backtracking here in a way, seeing both sides. :)

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 08:06:20 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: On further reflection, tho
Message:
Hi Francesca -
It's not so much that I mind hearing it usually (I have a few friends who are in the radical left, so I DO hear it), but I wasn't able to cope with it when I was dealing with the aftermath of September 11. I actually am OK with it now - but, as you said, it does get old after a while when people keep bringing up the same things. This goes for people on both sides, actually - except there are not any real conservatives on this forum (I just see THEM on TV).

Lots of love to you,
Katie

.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 23:22:51 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Pacifism and collective grief
Message:
'What has struck me is the great restraint & dignity being shown, not just in the personal stories like yours, but politically too.
Bin Laden/whoever would have been certain that such a calculated act would guarantee instant responses, so that's the first part he's lost out on.'

I agree. I think the U.S. has shown great restraint. It hurts me a lot that people are bracing for us, expecting us, to launch some 'scorch the earth' campaign. I think we have shown incredible restraint, resilience and dignity. Thank you ever so much for these posts. YOu have no idea how much good they do me!

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:04:21 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Thanks for that, Helen
Message:
I sometimes wonder if all the anti-Americans realize that they would not now be sitting whining freely on the net if it were not for our imperfect but better than anything else system.
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 23:26:28 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Thanks for that, Helen
Message:
That's what I say. I say to those people who hate this country so much, they are more than welcome to leave, and there are thousands of immigrants who would gladly live in your home (along with their entire village).
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:56:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Thanks so much, Ham
Message:
I agree. As a Canadian I'm surrounded by people who think the discussion starts with one big premise that's not even worth mentioning, it's so obvious, namely that the U.S. is a big, ugly tyrant that sure had something coming to it. If not this, something.

The best example of this mindset is, unsurprisingly, in the local university's rag The Marlet. The first week, two days after the attack, they ran an editorial wherein the writer opined that it was likely homegrown, leftist radicals responsible for the attack as the Pentagon and WTC were symbols of U.S. military and financial powers, deeply hated by the truly 'progressive'. The penultimate paragraph reads as follows:

But if I'm right, if radical left-wing activists have declared war on the North American status quo, then I'm left with another, more dire question that runs deeper than the question 'Who?' that we're all asking. The question is, 'Which side am I on?'

Then, this week, lots of anti-American letters, articles, even a cartoon transplanting the famous image of the crying, naked Vietnamese girl in the middle of the road to New York city as if you suggest that, yes, the U.S. had it coming. You know, 'what goes around ...'

There was also an article in this second post-attack issue where a gay student from the Phillipines discusses how the rest of us have finally woken up to the 'horror' he's been living with for years:

For those who already live in terror in this place (that is supposed to be safe, clean and impenetrable) there are several ways to look at last week's events. The spectacular crash of the World Trade Center is proof for everyone else (white people, the rich, those who don't want to pay attention or any combination of those people) that this place was never safe, clean and impenetrable to begin with. The sterile and bureaucratic order of 'our' lives -- from 'our' workplaces to 'our' streets to the blue-recycling boxes on 'our' curbs outside 'our' homes -- has come at the expense of disorder in the lives of millions of other people in orther parts of the world (as well as marginalized and oppressed peoples within 'our' own borders). The 'peace' and 'innocence' of life here is no more natural that daily war and violence, poverty and social strife in other parts of the world. But not all of 'us' were ever truly innocent. When the newspapers and televison broadcasts scream 'TERROR!' and lament 'the loss of innocence', they are perhaps referring to the terror of the rich and privileged, the loss of innocence for white people, the baptism into a new reality for a privileged lot -- a reality steeped in being afraid, being suspicious, living in terror.

I'm not one for writing letters to editors but this time I couldn't help myself:

I've lived in Victoria for about 11 years during which time I've ocasionally enjoyed laughing at your rabid, ill-thought newspaper. There doesn't seem to be a social issue alive that your writers and readers aren't able to misconstrue through histrionic self-righteousness, knee-jerk left-wing paranoia and simple bad thinking. Your opinions and letters regarding the WTC and Pentagon attacks appear to hit a new low in sophomoric confusion, leaving me wondering, don't you guys learn to think in university anymore?

For example, last week you ran a pathetic self-indulgent screed from some gay guy from the Phillipines who seems to have never learned how silly one can get indiscriminately interchanging the figurative and the literal. For him, the slights and discrimination he suffers here in Canada on account of his racial background or sexual orientation are 'acts of terror' just like the hijacked plane bombs. This isn't just stupid, it's offensive. One gets the sense, reading his article, that he's never learned to restrain his hyperbole; indeed, if anything, he seems to have learned to pile it on, the thicker the better. This might be useful practice in finger-painting, not serious discussions.

Then there's the ridiculous predictability of your own penchant for anti-American, anti-corporate, blah, blah, blah conspiracy thinking. Another childish game, this time more reminiscent of 'Pin the Tail on the Donkee' only this time the blindfoldee spins himself around before reaching out to tag the first arguable beneficiary from some action. Spencer Maybee's editorial 'Sky Falling' in the September 13th issue is a classic example. Mr. Maybee wonders aloud for all of two seconds about who might possibly benefit from this ugly attack. He comes up with 'radical left wing activists' on the simplistic theory that they might possibly have benefitted from these acts. This isn't analysis, it's dreaming. Analysis is all about considering ALL the factors and carefully balancing them, one against the other. I really don't get the impression that the Marlet staff or readership knows how to do that or, if they do, that they're willing to trade in their childish tirades for some real thinking.

The real kicker, of course, was Maybee's questioning whose side he's on if his 'theory' proves true. How ugly. How truly, deeply ugly. It's hard to 'shame' a fool. If it weren't I'd suggest he should be disgusted with himself for writing that. But I won't. You guys are hopeless.

Sincerely,

Jim Heller

Wonder if they'll print it.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 10:39:34 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fame at last Jim
Message:
I must say it was a brilliantly written letter.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 16:51:48 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 50 Caliber letter Jimmie [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 02:32:36 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Hey, they published it!
Message:
Even corrected my misspelling of 'donkey'.

Interesting to see what the responses are next week.

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Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001 at 14:24:20 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and now they feel so righteous
Message:
for having published a reactionary jingoist's ravings and will sit around congratulating themselves for being so liberal and tolerant.

You wondered if the Pinoy's hyperbole had ever been tempered. Probably not. In fact, if it's anything like the San Francisco State University (not U of Cal) where Angela Davis teaches, then his left-wing hysteria is probably encouraged and his expressions of sour envy of the white bourgeoisie nourished.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 22:13:00 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Another classic one here for you
Message:
The usual ill thought out pseudo leftist stuff, mixed in with some truths to give it some semblance in the liberal press letters pages, but the worst I heard about was Question Time, a forum panel on tv, quite highbrow for the box, where pundits get grilled by the audience.

Straight after the attack the american ambassador was on & the audience had him crying by the end of the programme with their anti-americanisms. Told by a mate that it was awful, it's beyond me.
Thankfully the majority of the population here, even with Blairs position which , in Bin Ladens own words, makes us the next target, are totally supportive ofg the american position, even more so with the restraint being shown.

One you'll love, in the last 2 weeks sex is no longer no 1 keyword in search engines, yep it's now Nostradamus!!!

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:07:43 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Too funny, Jim
Message:
I was wondering today what the political climate in your neck of the woods was like. Perhaps you ought to move to the US but maybe not the Bay Area. I have stopped talking politics with my customers because they are all new age green vegetarian (;))leftists who think the US is to blame. Aaargh!
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:02:13 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Thanks so much, Ham
Message:
Dear Jim,
Well, it really must be the end of the world! You and I are in agreement about something!
Helen
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:27:58 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Pacifism and collective grief
Message:
Before the planes hit the WTC I was a pacifist. I no longer am. The alternative to a war to defend western values (probably badly managed and full of tactical mistakes as usual) is unthinkable.

Islamic fascists will paralyse America with germ warfare and sweep to power over all of the mideast with their righteous fundamentalist rhetoric and we will be back in the dark ages.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 00:41:04 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Pacifism and collective grief
Message:
Helen:

The alternative to a war to defend western values (probably badly managed and full of tactical mistakes as usual) is unthinkable.

Islamic fascists will paralyze America with germ warfare and sweep to power over all of the mideast with their righteous fundamentalist rhetoric and we will be back in the dark ages.

I agree. Glad you spoke up, and I know the frustration you must feel. If you understand that the choice is really between civilization and a descent into a totalitarian dark age, then you know what it's about and how to set priorities. If not you sink into a sort of morass with little clarity and no frame of reference. Just like the Nazi buildup and aggression leading to WWII there is lots of 'froth' to help with clarity, if you're willing to look: A group who sees their goal as so immaculate that any atrocity inflicted on non-combatants is not only acceptable but desirable. The shred of 'justification' that makes sense only to those strongly predisposed to accept any dissembling rationale. A complex set of interpretations and rhetorical acrobatics designed to wrap acts of barbarism in fervor and faith with less ultimate substance than a rainbow's end. A gang of thugs lacking the decency to avert their faces from a direct question or the ability to reflect for the briefest moment on the torture they're willing to inflict in the name of their superior vision.

And to top it off, the certainty that if we don't invest every necessary resource, human and material, in destroying the organization behind the madness (horse) *and* establishing the institutions in the 'have not' world that can give safe voice to every reasonable grievance (cart), we will see far worse.

Those left-circling, progressive, new age buzzards that shuffle along with the beasts shame themselves and their cause. It is a complex situation, but it isn't ambiguous. Fortunately this appears to be one situation where 'ask the audience' would prove to be a pretty good 'lifeline.'

I think about it the way Lincoln must have considered the options open to the country after Fort Sumpter. There is no reason to pay a higher price than necessary, but no price is too high.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 21:34:50 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: The women of the middle east
Message:
Dear Scott,
I didn't write those paragraphs you quoted, I think Pat did! I do think that the terrorists, and some of the areas that give refuge to them, are in the dark ages, illiterate, with only the Taliban 'priests' giving them their information (much like the middle ages) , but I do not think that we run the risk of returning to the dark ages ourselves.They might try to bomb us, and kill a large portion of our population through small pox, anthrax etc., but I hardly think we will return to the dark ages culturally. Too much has gone down in this country, we fought our own civil war, and our own feminist and civil rights battles, and our forefathers and mothers' great experiement of democracy is thriving and will survive even if alot of our population doesn't.

I do see the parallels with Hitler, and believe we have a moral imperative to do battle with these terrorists, but the secrecy and the dispersion of these 'cells' around the world makes it very complex indeed in terms of finding them. I think we have to be realistic about our mission and our goals, realistic about who the enemy is. We can't go into the middle east with the mission of bringing democracy to every country there. It's just not going to happen amidst the fundamentalist fanaticism that is so prevalent. That's not our job. Our job as I see it, is to get the terrorists who did this horrible thing and any others who are also planning to attack us.

The human rights issues that Katie H. has brought up, are a huge concern for me. Even the princesses in Saudi Arabia are routinely drowned, in honor murders for the mere act of flirting with a boy. They don't drive, or leave their homes without a male family member escorting them. In Afganistan the situation for women is abominable. They are not allowed to work and are forced to beg, they and their children are starving. I am very concerned exactly how we plan to go into Afghanistan. The idea of doing raids much more appeals to me than the idea of bombing. And then I would like to see us help those women, children and the Northern Alliance rebuild their country. But what do I know? I'm not a political scientist or military strategist or anything of that nature. I know that war is not pretty, and I am not a pacifist, but still I have seen those women's faces and I don't like the thought of bombing them.

Scott, I have seen you going at it fast and furious on this forum and I don't want to get into an intense debate about this. In fact the less I talk about all this, the better for me! Hope you are ok,
Helen

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 12:22:55 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Re: The women of the middle east
Message:
They might try to bomb us, and kill a large portion of our population through small pox, anthrax etc., but I hardly think we will return to the dark ages culturally. Too much has gone down in this country, we fought our own civil war, and our own feminist and civil rights battles, and our forefathers and mothers' great experiement of democracy is thriving and will survive even if alot of our population doesn't.

This amounts to saying that there's too much momentum for it to be stopped now. That's probably correct, but none of us really knows. We'd sure be pressed up against our limits if we were confronted with loss or our oil supply at the same time we were hit with biological warfare. But just in terms of 'relative darkness' it wouldn't take that much to make things pretty dim. I think that the West would win such a war in the long run, but it would be at an unacceptably high cost.

but the secrecy and the dispersion of these 'cells' around the world makes it very complex indeed in terms of finding them. I think we have to be realistic about our mission and our goals, realistic about who the enemy is. We can't go into the middle east with the mission of bringing democracy to every country there. It's just not going to happen amidst the fundamentalist fanaticism that is so prevalent. That's not our job. Our job as I see it, is to get the terrorists who did this horrible thing and any others who are also planning to attack us.

Their secrecy is their strength, but also their Achilles heel. As for the democratic mission, we certainly could develop a strategic approach to the extension of self government though. Lots of people have been talking about this. Ernest Gellner (now dead) makes this conflict between 'legal-rational' and 'charismatic' systems the central theme at this stage of history. He seems to think the outcome is at least debatable, in the short term. In the long term though, he sees the Middle East as poised at the stage where their 'reformation' finally takes hold. So, I guess what I'm saying is that we don't need to dismiss the mission of extending self government out of hand, though it's certainly not going to happen tomorrow or any time soon. I should think that either Egypt or Jordan are the most likely candidates to be the first parliamentary democracy in the Muslim Middle East. That would be a huge step.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:09:52 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I'm not a real hawk, Scott
Message:
I am hoping that as much money and effort is put into humanitarian aid as eradicating terrorists not only because it is good real politik but because it is the right and proper thing to do. However that does not mean that I did not thoroughly enjoy this paragraph of yours.

A group who sees their goal as so immaculate that any atrocity inflicted on non-combatants is not only acceptable but desirable. The shred of 'justification' that makes sense only to those strongly predisposed to accept any dissembling rationale. A complex set of interpretations and rhetorical acrobatics designed to wrap acts of barbarism in fervor and faith with less ultimate substance than a rainbow's end. A gang of thugs lacking the decency to avert their faces from a direct question or the ability to reflect for the briefest moment on the torture they're willing to inflict in the name of their superior vision.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 08:09:35 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I'm not a traditional hawk either.
Message:
Pat:

Thanks. I wonder if we need parity in humanitarian aide, but we certainly need to meet the demand. That said, I'd go even further and say that we need a systematic policy designed to help establish the instutitions of self government and the 'rule of law' (a term misapplied to the conflict itself) in the Middle East. Finally, we need to make sure through a wartime propaganda machine that the populations affected understand that these efforts and expenses are attributable to the US. War is more than fighting.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 14:00:05 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: I'm not a traditional hawk either.
Message:
I know, Scott. I think the only real hawks left are dinosaurs. Being an optimist, I'm sure that this war will be three-pronged, bringing criminals to justice, humanitarian aid and sufficient propaganda to ensure that our actions are understood.

I may not be a Republican but I'm not all that worried about the present government. I think they are Americans first and partisans second.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 17:18:35 (EDT)
From: David 2
Email: None
To: All
Subject: yacht
Message:
Can anyone tell me if M still has the yacht? If he does, does he control who uses it?
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:33:30 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: David 2
Subject: Re: yacht is for the use of the anon 'owner'
Message:
refer to the yacht "Serenity" registration link at ex-premie.org
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 16:31:34 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Some people are too weird
Message:
I just finished reading Joe's post 'I can't stop thinking . . . WTC' It so hit home. I read the entire thread feeling touched and raw. (I live in Connecticut and grew up in the New York area. I lived for many years in Brooklyn Heights and Manhattan. It just seems so close.) Then I got an email from a friend with a link to a slideshow of pictures of the events of the day -- the smoky skyline, the explosions, people running from the scene to escape the horror, the tired faces of the firefighters and rescuers -- oh yes, and lots of flags -- all with the soundtrack of Ray Charles singing America the Beautiful. Just what are some people thinking? I guess I'll never know.

Best,
Susan

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 17:55:17 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Emotional correctness' - Dianaism
Message:
Is this perhaps what you are trying to put your finger on?

There are other interesting articles here if you haven't come across this site yet. I forgot who posted it, but thanks again.

Anna
[ Emotional correctness ]

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 06:48:46 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Brilliant article there, Stonor and my sin
Message:
I am reminded of my own experience of Dianaism back when she died when I innocently asked the woman in the local post office if the post office would be open tomorrow (the day of Diana's funeral). I was immediately given a dirty look and then, almost in tears, the woman said, ''Don't you realise what day it is tommorow?''

I'm afraid I committed the ultimate sin in emotionally incorrect terms these past two weeks as I've repeatedly opened up my Microsoft Flight Simulator and practised crashing a Boeing 737 into the World Trade Centre. I showed my children how easy it was to do and they were impressed.

Glad to say that my kids have not been traumatised by any emotional correctness and we even joke about planes crashing into London's tallest building at Canary Wharf.

However, I do have a friend who was somewhat appalled by my practising crashing the Boeing into the WTC and he said it was a bit sick. However, he's bringing along his updated Flight Simulator and maybe I'll get him round to my way of seeing things.

Tragic, the events were but like all such terrible events, there will be black humour abounding, I'm sure. How long will it be before the first WTC jokes start flying around?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 11:56:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: That's really touching, Dave -- just beautiful
Message:
I am reminded of my own experience of Dianaism back when she died when I innocently asked the woman in the local post office if the post office would be open tomorrow (the day of Diana's funeral). I was immediately given a dirty look and then, almost in tears, the woman said, ''Don't you realise what day it is tommorow?''

I'm afraid I committed the ultimate sin in emotionally incorrect terms these past two weeks as I've repeatedly opened up my Microsoft Flight Simulator and practised crashing a Boeing 737 into the World Trade Centre. I showed my children how easy it was to do and they were impressed.

Glad to say that my kids have not been traumatised by any emotional correctness and we even joke about planes crashing into London's tallest building at Canary Wharf.

However, I do have a friend who was somewhat appalled by my practising crashing the Boeing into the WTC and he said it was a bit sick. However, he's bringing along his updated Flight Simulator and maybe I'll get him round to my way of seeing things.

Tragic, the events were but like all such terrible events, there will be black humour abounding, I'm sure. How long will it be before the first WTC jokes start flying around?


---

Why stop there, Dave? Your'e a funny guy. Why don't you give us a few WTC jokes. Hey man, you are sooooooo much the individualist!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 12:22:15 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I don't do jokes
Message:
Since I didn't know anyone who was killed at the WTC, I can't feel personal grief about it. I witnessed first hand the result of an IRA bomb at Canary Wharf, London but again, felt no grief since nobody I knew died there.

There's many things in the world which we can feel total horror at but if we take on board personally, all the tragic events that happen, we'd never get through the day. So horror, "yes" but grief, "no". I don't think I'm alone in that.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 20:05:33 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Well I'm an old weepy mush head
Message:
Sir Dave, Jim and all,

Different reactions, as we are all different people. I don't know anyone who died there, but I found myself crying a few tears today, just thinking about those people dead in the rubble of the WTC, their children, relatives and friends, and all those poor, f--cked over Afghanis I've been reading about. I was on the table at the accupuncturists and some sad, beautiful classical music was playing on the public radio station.

But I've always been that way -- I always feel like I'm a part of everything, not really separate. Sometimes I'm not tuned into it, and sometimes I am. Interconnectedness, interbeing, whatever.

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 21:27:42 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I'll reply to this post at the top of the forum [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:10:28 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Emotional correctness' - Dianaism
Message:
Anna,

You wrote: Is this perhaps what you are trying to put your finger on?

Very close -- thanks for the link.

Best, Susan

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 16:43:39 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Re: Some people are too weird
Message:
You said: ''.....the horror, the tired faces of the firefighters and rescuers -- oh yes, and lots of flags -- all with the soundtrack of Ray Charles singing America the Beautiful. Just what are some people thinking? I guess I'll never know.''

I guess they were in mourning, Sue. Nothing weird about that. Unless you're trying to make the point that we are jingoists. Naw, you wouldn't. Not now.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 15:38:36 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Figuring Out the People...
Message:
Hi All,

Stopped in to read a bit...

I've been watching very little tv about the ?________place your term here. I don't know what to call what happened, although the news media is certainly using this as a propaganda jump off point.

Being away from the board and tv and newspapers has given me a perspective about the shock and the grief. Collectively, as a nation, and allies, but especially the US has taken a huge hit. Individually, the victims and families have taken huge shots. So it's hard to distinguish sometimes, what is being triggered in me.

When something major happens, and believe me, I used to love breakin' news. The Diana thing I didn't get into emotionally. This time, the WTC, hit me hard. Then I ask myself, what am I also mourning inside that is completely unrelated to this event which I am also now grieving. The grief is much more deep than for people I don't know, and my country, which I hide from in the deep forest.

Then there are the media and advertisers who are now using images of flags and American folks helping eachother out, both in New York and across the country. A music concert last Friday with no announcements of musicians' names. Huge donations being made to the Red Cross and Victims' Relief efforts.

Americans are weird. I have spoken to those who know people here in the north-woods who have survival gear, big guns and all, underground. Ready to fight hand to hand, or gun to gun.

I've realized that I don't want violence to happen, but it will. I have also realized that if the bio-chem warfare shit hits the fan, I'm not into using gas masks and running to ?where?

Just my 2 cents on a cloudy day, (and having just recovered from a big ole computer crash!)

See you later,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 20:01:54 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Wondered where you were, girl? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:03:56 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Some people are too weird
Message:
Pat,

OK, I'll admit to having to look up jingoist. (I spend most of my days talking to a 6 and 3 year old and since my brain has been reduced to mush, my vocabulary has dribbled out my ear and onto my pillow at night.) No, that wasn't it. It was simply that the images and the song seemed so incongruous. The pictures were of terror, pain, hopelessness, despair. The song is a song of hope.

Maybe I was overreacting. I guess I didn't see it as an expression of mourning. And now that you mention it, it was probably just that. (altho there is a part of me that wonders if we had seen coverage of what was really happening there that day, if we'd still make slide shows out of the images)

Best,
Susan

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:15:14 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: No one can accuse Yanks of being
Message:
sophisticated, sue. The song may have sounded inappropriate but it probably gave people a lot of hope when they were picking up bits of corpses and putting them in plastic buckets.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 07:45:05 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: No one can accuse Yanks of being
Message:
Very true Pat. Now I'm going to take my reading glasses off and maybe I'll see something past the end of my own nose. Thanks for your perspective.

Best,
Susan

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 16:19:36 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: All
Subject: WAR on Dogmatism?
Message:
Dear ex prempals et al, here is a very pithy proposal from a cyberpal. Let's do it! Please reply to him or I if you feel inclined, love Tim

Dear Friend,

Looking at the conflict that is going on in the world right now and has gone
on for millennia, peaceful folk wonder what they can do and it seems the
power is always in the hands of the very people who seem to have created
this mess.

This mess being the fundamentalism, dogmatism and generally closed minds and
hearts which still permeates the political, religious, social affairs of the
world. The consequence of which is the division of humanity and endless war.

So I ask the question is it possible to wage war on dogmatism,
fundamentalism of all kinds, to speak out against every ism there is whether
it be nationalism, patriotism, communism, capitalism, all the religious isms
and all that think they are the sole keepers of truth.

This is not rocket science. Can we drop bombs of open mindedness on the
world? The other sort of bombs don't work. This would be a serious work but
with humour as our guide less we fall foul of our own zealousness.

Rather than go on, I would welcome any feedback over the next few days as to
what anyone else thinks? whether anyone else would like to help with this
task?, how it could move forward? whether anyone thinks this is stupid and
can't be done? If we can do it together perhaps we can have a world voice
for inner freedom.

Contact Gary (bomber) Merrill at gmerrill@freeuk.com

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:10:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Moral masturbation
Message:
I'm sick of this simplistic junk. Absolutely sick of it. There are very good, honest people with a lot of weight on their shoulders trying to figure out how to keep Gary (bomber) Merrill safe while he dreams on about how much better he is than them. Too bad for them they're lowly nationalists, capitalists or, god forbid, patriots. Maybe they should just stop what they're doing and listen to bomber.
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:31:44 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Moral masturbation
Message:
God Forbid patriots!
Your enemy is a terrorist what you employ yourself is 'covert operations' sic. Nicaragua, Chile, Vietnam, Beirut it goes on and on.
SO..blame game is not the answer. These good men you speak of have not so far got us out of the never ending cycle. I really hope that this time they do. I am not in the least anti-American by the way, many good friends there and an ardent visitor myself. I was impressed by the Colin Powell interview the other night too.
BUT ....I maintain the vert seeds of conflict are in the cries of 'Our Great Nation' and 'Our True God'. Give a man a cause, a flag, a religion and a uniform and he'll do things his own intuition would never allow. Bin Liner is a good example (if guilty which it looks like). I wonder do you think the Dalai Lama is a purveyor of simplistic junk?
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:52:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Yes, the Dalai Lama IS at fault
Message:
Tim,

Any Lama who leads people to believe his authority rests in his status as a reincarnation of another Lama who claimed likewise with respect to yet another Lama is no Lama for me. I agree that religion should go (not that it will, of course). Patriotism, however, doesn't have to be irrational or malignant. It could be no more than pride in one's collective accomplishments, or appreciation for the benefits, natural or cultural, of one's homeland. Patriotism can be ill-informed and dangerous but it doesn't have to be. Religion doesn't have to be dangerous but it's always ill-informed.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:20:07 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Yes, the Dalai Lama IS at fault
Message:
Some good points there Pat. I agree that the DL basing his authority on being a reincarnation is fatuous..but I am all for his statement, as a human being, that 'my religion is simple, my religion is kindness'
As to patriotism, in the limited way you put it I can understand that it might be harmless. I enjoy some of our Irish characteristics, others I don't (including ambivalence to terrorism)
Yep, I'm finding it harder and harder to find a good word for it. As soon as I tarnish the unknown or if you like the Miracle that is our existence with a name or a method or doctrine I have killed its potency and intruded with my own half baked ideology. Silence is golden.
Just back from Turkey and loved the people and the place.
I hear your anger and if my daughter or relation worked on he 101st floor of WTC I cannot know how I'd feel. In a sense I owe you an apology. In another sense I cannot deny that the big picture of mistaken identity is findamental.
Best
Tim
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:33:48 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Re: Moral masturbation
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 16:33:16 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Re: WAR on isms?
Message:
Are capitalism and western civilization really dogmatic isms or simply the natural progress of relatively free, relatively undogmatic ordinary people?
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 17:54:13 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: WAR on isms?
Message:
Pat, before you think I'm taking the chamberlain route of so many here, see my response to that one above in a new thread,but I can't let this pass either.

Global warming means that 125 million bangladeshis will have nowhere to live by 2030, the mississippi basin will be gone, as will a whole host of pacific islands.
East Anglia will disappear about the same time etc etc etc

40% of the artic circle has already melted, yes already, not supposition, not modelling, already happened, and why, because our religion is now consumption, and we are quite happy to destroy billions of years evolution in just 100 years, you don't call that dogmatic???!!!!!

I just don't believe the human race sometimes, or understand how short term our thinking is.

Thankfully Colin Powells approach stands a much better chance of success than the retribution route re terrorism and seems to be winning the argument, and don't we need it, but what is the point in defending our freedoms if there is none, for not just our grandchildren but our children too.

My daughter is 24 now and will be living in the midst of unreversable chaos by the time she's a pensioner, if not well before, since the dates are constantly being brought closer.

And since some of you never seem to read about any of this, latest news flash, the gulf stream is already being shown to be diverted by the artic meltdown, and britain will be going from southern spanish weather by 2030 to siberian weather by 2050/60.

This leaves out increases in violent weather brought about by chaotic unstable weather systems.

And not just the usa's fault, EVERY consumer who buys ANYTHING NEW, drives a car, flies in a plane and holidays abroad is accelerating it, ie all the 'civilised' world, and the rest who aspire to it, never met anyone who liked living in poverty.

Will any coalition get to grips with that as well as the VERY real, more immediate terrorist threat, I see absolutely NO signs of that happening, to the point that it's almost too late to even slow it down, let alone reverse it, which would take fifty years.

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 01:12:30 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: I hear you, brother
Message:
Dear ham,

I just can't whistle this stuff away either.

Bests to you,

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:33:00 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: The difference is you're a pessimist
Message:
I know we have changed our ecology and weather to the point of no return but I'm an optimist. We'll find a way to live with it.
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:34:51 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I'm not gonna belabour the point Pat
Message:
But I've obviously found the one topic you aren't informed about, and not being sarky, that's a compliment.

120 million Bangladeshis, where are they going to go?

The number of questions like that I could ask goes on for pages.
The ewwffects of global warming are going to be absolutely horrendous, and burying our heads in the sand will not make it go away, like burying our heads in the sand about terrorism would never make it go away either.

I'm a pessimist for the same reason you are no longer a pacifist, and I can't see why it isn't much higher on our agendas, if we can get a coalition going on terrorism , then why not on the planet itself?

I'll drop this now, because it will run & run anyway but...............

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 20:52:07 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Okay, Ham, I'm an ostrich
Message:
Long before I read your website stuff about global warming I was aware of most of it. You can't live in a radically green city like SF without being informed.

But as long as there's life there's hope and many of us here are actually working (okay so all I do is give money to the Sustainable Earth Coalition) to see what can be done.

Perhaps it's your nature to spread alarm and it is mine to say ''Let's do something about it.'' Both optimists and pessimists are needed. I am definitely not pooh-poohing your concern. Just taking a different tack.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:00:43 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Last one on this Pat
Message:
Telling the truth is not spreading alarm, telling it like it is is the ONLY way we'll do something, even most of the environmental movement can't deal with the evidence at the moment.

It needs a global coalition EXACTly in the way the present one is being sculpted, but I see absolutely no desire for that at all.
Even the Kyoto agreement, which isn't being acted upon, was only between 10 & 20% of the reductions needed, and that is to stabilise it within 40/50 years, I rest my case.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:21:15 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Last one on this, Ham
Message:
Of course we need alarmists ebenthough you aren't one ;). I just don't have the stomach for it and I'm glad that you and others do.

I don't think we can do much to help the Bangladeshis. They don't do much to help themselves and are routinely decimated by the annual monsoons.

So, as an optimist, I now hope that WWWlll will have good spin-off results such as a more global consciousness. It's hard to make an optimist worry.

And I'm also partly teasing you, you pessimistic old trainspotter.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:47:17 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Careful Pat re Bangladeshis
Message:
A little bit innaccurate and don't forget we brits destroyed the country when it was one of the richest in the world, couldn't have their superior cotton and ship-building industries out competing us could we,
and even if you are joking, rather in poor taste.

Re the coalition & global consciousness, I pray you're right.
At least then we might go down with some whatever the word is, style....?

Hey I might seem an old sourpuss trainspotter but check out jojomayer.com, and see me dance with a grin, this wide (________________________)

What's even better is that one of my bestest friewnds has just come out of a months coma in the last 2 days, a woman who was as good as dead in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, completely unconscious it seemed, and was still trying to rip the respirator off her face, what a will to live.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 19:48:47 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: ham, San Francisco: Green City
Message:
That's a link to an article in the San Francisco Bay Guardian, a leftist weekly. Other articles in it will give you an idea of just how left and green SF is.
[ San Francisco: Green City ]
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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 00:08:04 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Careful re Bangladeshis
Message:
No, it wasn't a joke. Probably racism. The Third World (especially India) does seem awfully fatalistic sometimes or lazy. But I don't know much about Bangladesh - better educate myself.

I am very glad to hear about your friend. With all this WTC stuff I had forgotten to ask.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:18:36 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: WAR on isms?
Message:
Hi Pat C amd Hamzen. It really is not black and white, good against evil. The civilised West has been monstrously culpable for military and civilian deaths over the last 100 years.. The conflict starts at home.
Here is a letter that I sent out a few days after the terror attack. It expresses my view of the situation.

Dear family and friends
A few thoughts on events in the USA
Any sane (sensitive and alert) human being can only respond with the utmost
sadness and sympathy. Along with the recognition of pain and horror comes
the inevitable reminder of our individual mortality.

The human mind jumps in to suggest solutions, aportion blame and require
revenge or at the least justice. Nearly every response is generated by fear.
Nearly every response has it's limitation.

There are almost as many opinions and conclusions as there are people.

It seems to me that this is a time of great opportunity for a step forward
in the sometimes shabby human story. It is yet again a time to take the
revolutionary step of not responding to evil (ignorance/delusion) with evil
.
It's fairly clear that a major strike on the world that the probable
perpetrators come from will further alienate their perceived, and often
true, position of dispossession and alienation and strengthen their zeal for
bloody confrontation. It would be yet again a blow from the strong on the
weak, which in turn will lead to more guerilla/suicidal responses.

On a somewhat simplistic level this is a war of ideologies. The spiritual
crusaders are pitted against the Great Satan of Western capitalism with it's
corrupt greedy society and it's rotten and immoral society. A blinkered
horse running against a blind but free one!

Many have suggested that we go to our places of worship and pray to God
(will the real one please stand up?).This may be very comforting but
unfortunately our self created Gods are all slightly different and some of
them are violently antithetical. In fact some of them, or maybe the concept
of them at all, are serious players in the conflict. To paraphrase Pascal
'man never so freely and cheerfully kills his fellow man as in the name of
God'.

I suggest something slightly different;

Our allegencies are largely an accident of birth and our thinking a result
of our conditioning.
As has been said 'Ideals are brutal things', we will fight each other over
abstract concepts and even over words (communist, facist, left-wing,
right-wing).

So long as we completely identify with 'Our Great Nation' or 'Our One True
God' we have established conflict.

Could we for a moment identify with just being born as a person in the
World?

It seems to be imperative to understand where the aggressor is coming from
and why.

The most implacable enemy is a person who is consumed by an ideology, as we
all are to some extent, or brainwashed in a cult..think of Jim Jones and his
compliant suicide victims or the Branch Dravidians of Waco. This kind of
adversary can probably only be deflected or contained as they are prepared
to sacrifice their life.

SO.. could this be a time to look closely at ourselves, our motives and our
common humanity. See the innate goodness that surfaces radically in disaster
situations, where strangers risk their lives for each other and offer
comfort. Recognise the fragility of our bodies and the planet that we tread.
Observe the short time span that we can expect to exist within. Above all
celebrate the ties of common or garden love that we have in our lives.

On the political front the vast majority of world leaders have empathised
with the American cataclysm... this unanimity could be maintained and even
built on by a very minimal response and one that is based on International
Justice rather than nationalistic revenge. If it were to be the latter
untold misery will surely unfold.

On the front of the World of Creation the flowers will still bloom and the
waves chase each other with nothing to prove (unlike you and I). But will we
be there to share their astonishing precision and beauty?

(These are thoughts shot from the hip but no less heartfelt. I welcome any
replies and would love to see a dialogue roll onwards that veers towards the
opportunities of the moment rather than the corollary. If you can agree with
the basic thrust of these comments please campaign for a measured and
judicial response to this tragedy)

With Love,
Tim

Tim Goulding
Sweet Ticket Music
Eskinanaun
Allihies
Beara
Co Cork
Ireland

Int+353(0)27 73099
Website www.timgoulding.com

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:09:16 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Tim, two weks ago I called for appeasement
Message:
Now, after reading a lot more about the Islamic fascists, I am not. Two weeks ago I may have said something like this:

''These poor people. They have been crushed by mightier powers than them for decades. No wonder they have become fighting mad. Can you blame them for wanting to assert their sovereign rights? Really he's not so bad. He speaks for his people's national pride and is a bulwark against communist on the eastern front.''

No, those sentiments are not about Islam fundamentalists and Bin Laden. Those were the sentiments expressed by British liberals about the Germany of the 30s and Hitler.

No one really wanted another world war. The Brits tried appeasement. Churchill saw the writing on the wall and was a lone voice crying in the wilderness for years.

So, eventually we went to war and crushed Germany and Japan. Did other Hitlers and Chrysanthemum Emperors spring up to take there place? No, the ordinary people saw the error of their leaders' ways and are now our allies.

Here's hoping history DOES repeat itself.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:30:39 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Tim, two weks ago I called for appeasement
Message:
Islamic Fascists need to go. So do Christian Fascists and Hindus and ...... I've been reading about the extreme islamic groups too. The only issue is 'how to do it'. What I want to see is justice not revenge. So far, touch wood, the messages from the American admin are hopeful in that they grasp that the problem is not mainstream Islam. Bush met with Islamic leaders in America tonight.
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 21:35:38 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: I can't stand Bush
Message:
and think he is an idiot and took the Presidency illegally BUT he has bent over backwards to repeat again and again that this war is not against Arabs and that we need to protect our Arab American citizens.

I haven't really entered this political discussion much because I doubt if what I say has much effect but also because the WTC attack shook a lot of my old pacifist liberal beliefs to the core. I'm still re-evaluating.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:39:37 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: It would be great Tim
Message:
but I can't see this happening for at least another 15 years, admittedly the coalition concept IS getting grounded in reality, even the Iranians & the Chinese are supportive, but I see absolkutely NO signs that we care about this planet one jot, and after thirty years of fighting it I'm getting tired, and I'm sick of being a religious recyclist constantly avoiding the rat race. Someone who's never owned a car, never owned anything new apart from one computer, and some audio equipment, and constantly being in poverty.

A grand coalition, like that facing terrorism, that looked at all the heavy issues facing our existence at the moment would completely re-inspire me lifestyle & enviromentally wise, but as it is I will take inspiration in the american measured & determined response to this terrorist situation, that the human race has some dignity left in it, even as we sink into the seas and burn ourselves up.

Thank god for music and the arts.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 13:56:19 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Things I can't stop thinking ....WTC
Message:
It's been two weeks, but it seems like yesterday. Some things I can't stop thinking about. Maybe for a few minutes here and there I do, but the unsettled feeling in the back of my mind, when I identify it, I remember.

I spent an hour last night talking to my friend Evelyn in New York. About 10 years ago, she used to work at WTC and knows our mutual friend Julie who worked there until that place stopped existing. Julie is okay, but I still haven't spoken with her.

Evelyn used to work on the 104th floor of the North Tower for a subsidiary of Cantor Fitzgerald. She said you had to change elevators to get to her floor. She talked about how she loved the views, and never got tired of them. She said that in high winds, the office would sway and some people would go home claiming nausea. Sometimes her office was above the clouds.

At any rate, we talked about how to jump from the top floors of the World Trade Center is to jump from a plane. Neither Evelyn nor I could imagine any circumstances that would warrant it. The dilemma of all those many people who jumped must have been unthinkable. It must have been to jump to a quick death or burn to death slowly. That's all I can think of. I've woken up a couple of times at night recently thinking about this.

Evelyn said that no one really escaped from the 100s in the building she used to work in. She said one man (now dead, obviously) who was talking on the phone as the fire approached, said the fire came straight up really fast. I kept reading that Cantor Fitzgerald lost two thirds or more of their staff, but what Evelyn said was that the ones who lived weren't at the office. Cantor had 700 employees on those three-digit floors. They're all dead.

Evelyn said that on the day of the attack she and her partner Janice when to pick up their daughter at her Brooklyn school about noon. She saw another mother wandering around, her clothes ripped, her hair gray with soot, her entire body covered in dust and ash, one shoe on, one shoe off. Evelyn said the shoe she was wearing had no heel. The woman told Evelyn that she was working accross the street from the World Trade Center, she had evacuated and walked over the Brooklyn Bridge, which I guess is quite a few miles, to pick up her child. She seemed to be completely out of it and wandering around and yet she was behaving normally. Evelyn said it was like one of those novels where a nuclear bomb has gone off, and strange, dazed people roam the rubble pretending nothing's wrong.

Other things I can't get out of my mind include the images of all those people in New York, in such deep denial that they were walking around with pictures of their loved ones who are obviously dead. And I know that I would do exactly the same thing if I were in their position.

Also, I keep seeing pictures I saw in the NYT of all the cars that were (maybe still are) sitting for days and days in the parking lots of commuter train stations throughout the New York area.

Finally, I keep thinking about all those people, who knew they were going to die, who picked up their cell phones to call whoever it was they loved to tell them goodbye and to have a good life. I heard on the radio the answering machine tape of a woman who had called her husband to say goodbye. Geez. How do you deal with that?

Are you ready to talk about Maharaji and his pitiful, dying cult? No, I couldn't care less either.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:33:07 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Joe
Message:
Really well written. People in NYC are still in a daze. None of us feel safe. We're basically just waiting for the next attack. I, for one, have no confidence (in spite of Mayor Giuliani's assurances) that our law enforcement agencies have any control over this situation. Today, because of a scare that a tractor trailer loaded with explosives was headed for the city, it took up to 5 hours for people to get into work while cops checked every truck going into Manhattan. Basically, they just openned the doors to the trailers, took a quick peek, and sent the trucks on their way. They might as well have just asked the drivers, 'Do you have any bombs on your truck... No? Okay, you can go.' Really, anybody with half a brain can see it's all for show. I'd rather they just gave me a gun and a parachute, and dropped me into Afghanistan so I could hunt for the son of a bitch, myself. At least that way, I'd have a fighting chance. The way it is, I just feel like a sitting duck. I imagine the whole country feels that way. And you're right. Who's Maharaji? Who cares?
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 17:51:11 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Things I can't stop thinking ....WTC
Message:
Dear Joe,
Bless you for this post. Yes I am still lurking around here now and then. I have been unable to sleep for 2 weeks with similar thoughts going through my mind. One of my friend's husband lost 200 co-workers in the WTT (he works in the DC office, but often commuted to NYC to work in the NY office). Living in the DC area, it's impossible to not be thinking of this, because the Pentagon is a huge employer. Everyone knows someone affected. Seven degrees of separation and all that. This is all anyone is talking about here (and of course politics, how Bush is doing, where everyone stands on the issue, etc.) My husband has been racked with grief, I have seen him like this, he didn't lose anyone he knows but he saw it in 'real time ' on TV and I think he can never forget it.

Last night I went to back to school night and the teacher gave the parents the current Time for Kids magazine, and told us to read it with our children only if we felt it was appropriate (he wanted us to review it first). Of course it was all about the tragedy, replete with photos. My daughter and I sat down and read it together. I don't think she really gets it (she is 9) but I am glad she doesn't because then she would be really sad.

She asked me if it was like when the Challenger blew up upon take off which her teacher had told her about. I said it was a bit similar in that it was shocking and sad, except that astronauts anticipate that when they go up into space they are undertaking something potentially very dangerous. No one who went into the World Trade Towers that day or to the Pentagon thought it would be anythign but a normal day. They did the most ordinary things, not knowing it would be their last day. I know I am findign the greatest comfort in the most ordinary things and feel like it is such a priviledge to just go to the mailbox, walk the dog, and just to hang out with my husband, kid and her friends doing nothing in particular. The concerns I had on Mon the 10th seem so incredibly superficial and idiotic compared to now.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 08:58:01 (EDT)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Re: Nice to read your posts
Message:
Helen.Nice to read your posts..and Joe your words have been very uplifting and this critical time..I was away fm the computer scene all summer..Glen Lake was beautifull..but reality has set in..thanks so much for your heartfelt words...Peace..david m
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:16:56 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hi Helen!
Message:
I hope that you and Gary are doing well despite what has happened. I've thought of you often, and missed seeing you around here. I remember well the happy times with Tami Rainbow and the Minnesota housewife's stories about her husband. I hope they come back some Friday night when the moon is very full, but mostly I hope that at least the mention of them will put a small smile on your face.

Much love,

Anna

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 23:34:58 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Hi Helen!
Message:
How are you, Stonor? Thanks for the nice words. I haven't thought about those characters in a long time. Right now, I suspect Tami is meditating and trying to imagine Bin Laden surrounded by bliss and love. She's thinking how this whole world is Maya anyway and that we're all equals on the astral plane and that even Bin Laden has good inside his soul. Minnesota Housewife is decked out in red, white and blue and baking goodies for the bake sale to benefit the relief efforts. And Little Yiddish Grandma is hoping and praying that we kick Bin Laden's ass like we did Hitler's!
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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 19:38:27 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Thanks for the update!
Message:
I'm glad to hear that those characters are all still alive and well in your marvellously fertile imagination! I had a good laugh the morning I read your post, and it got my day off to great start - thank you. And I sure hope that Bin Laden's ass is kicked, but not more innocent people, if at all possible.

I'm fine, but going through my usual struggle to cook and freeze my harvest before the frost comes - and then, yes, there's still a lot of work to do in my garden before winter really arrives for the duration. My health has improved - I've been seeing a Naturopath who uses the Bioset approach (Ellen Cutler?) to re-balance my system and get rid of my food and other sensitivities (although I NEVER want to be able to eat peanuts! ;) - it has been helping my sister and I tremendously. How have you been doing, apart from the recent shock?

I should be making the first double batch of cream of celery soup and cooking beans for the pumpkin bean and corn recipe right now, so I'll get back to the kitchen in a few minutes.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:08:39 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Dear Helen
Message:
I send you, your husband and your beautiful daughter my love and a big hug.
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 23:41:05 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Re: Dear Helen
Message:
Hi there, how goes it in your neck of the woods? Is everyone okay?
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:25:13 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hi Helen
Message:
Thanks for that, and I know what you mean about the simple stuff seeming much more important. Also, sometimes it seems the simple details that trigger things in me. I was standing on a street corner a few days ago, and a woman said that the area around the WTC was littered with heeled womens shoes. Apparently, in running for their lives, thousands of women kicked off their shoes so they could run faster. Something about that image of all those shoes got me freaked again.

Now, it's all security. Since last week, you have to have a building pass to get into my building. Today, I had to show my health club membership with my picture to get into the Citicorp building where my gym is. I wonder how long all of this will last.

Always great to hear from you Helen, and I hope you and your husband are feeling better.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 23:40:07 (EDT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hi Joe
Message:
Some very powerful details in those posts, Joe. Speaking of high heels, same thing happened at the Pentagon. One of my sister's co-workers was terrified because her daughter works at the Pentagon. Her 4-month pregnant daughter ran out of the building in her stockinged feet and was trampled on by other freaked out people. OF course no one could get to their cars so she just started walking home. A stranger ended up going way out of his way to bring her safely home and she and the baby are okay. My sister's co-workers' and students' families had lots of close calls like these.
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 15:53:36 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: great post, Joe
Message:
I imagine it isn't really a 'decision' to jump or burn. It's more like the heat creates the reflex to do whatever is possible to get immediate relief from it. So a person doesn't really think about it, they just act... like pulling your hand away from a burning frying pan. Unfortunately you'd get a few moments to realize your fate before you hit the ground.

I think about some those same things, Joe, although I hadn't thought about the abandoned cars in the parking lots. I do think about the few people who died who must have not had anyone in their life. Either they were between relationships, widowed, too old to have living parents or siblings... something like that. Maybe an old janitor or clerk or maintenance person. Maybe a salesperson in a gift shop. Whoever they might have been, if there were people like that at all; well, no one would have missed those people at all. Maybe just their landlord.

I think about the people got in arguments with their partner before they went to work, and didn't get a chance to straighten it out. And I think about the possiblity of two people working in the same office, who secretly loved each other and got the chance to tell each other before they perished.

I think about the people who had been on three dates with someone and it was just starting to look like it might work out. And unfortunately, I think about the people who were doing bad things, like domestic or child abuse. I guess that might be a tiny silver lining for any possible victims.

And I think about the people who might have been contemplating suicide. Even worse, I think about the people who managed to get out alive, and that maybe one of them in the next six months will slip on a banana peel and die, or something equally senseless.

And I think about the children left parentless, who will be permanently emotionally scarred, and pass that legacy on, in some way, for generations. I know about that one because my own father died when I was five.

I also think about all the people who know someone who died, or know someone who knows someone who died. That's probably up their in the hundred of thousands.

More than any of this, I think about where the next attack will come from. Will I see a mushroom cloud in the distance, or start choking on the tainted air drifting my way. Will I be hunting deer, six months from now?

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 15:05:18 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I share your feelings
Message:
Dear Joe,

I share yours and Chuck's and Pat's (and many, many others) feelings. In the commuter towns in Connecticut along the train line into the City, and the commuter town in New Jersey (many people take the PATH trains into lower Manhattan) there are cars that are still unclaimed, people who don't pick up their dry cleaning, show up for hairdressing appointments, didn't come home.

I believe this is a defining moment for anyone who is old enough to comprehend what happened, at least for us Yanks, but it seems, for many other people. It is not an understatement to say that this even, maybe more than any other, has changed our lives. And we cannot go back, and something was lost. We know a terrible truth now. How to make flowers grow out of the ashes, how to move forward and yet not deny or forget what we know, that is part of the work we are doing.

I remember when my father died in the spring, something unthinkable had happened. Suddenly I knew that all bets were off with fate. Shit happens. We live and die. And cry.

Love to you all,

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 15:27:15 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: richard@rogers-graphics.com
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Bizarre symptoms
Message:
Well I've had a very intense reaction to all the horrible news. I was on a personal getaway in Eastern Oregon and Eastern Washington just before the tragedy. I was out there with the top down on the Miata, thouroughly enjoying America the beautiful. Rivers, mountains, trees and people. That gorgeous back drop with 100% NPR soundtrack was odd indeed - a real dissonance.
Anyway, over the course of a few days I developed high blood pressure and increased pulse. I've seen a doctor (naturepath) who has me on a good remedy plus excercise but I'm left feeling quite shellshocked and depressed. For a few days I was even having hallucinations - a spinning whirling light thingy at the upper left periphery of my vision. If I focused on the light, there was always a bucolic, ideal scene like a field of flowers, scene by a babbling river or even sweet village scene with people and shops. The funny thing, in each scene I was there, too looking out at me looking in. Sort of an astral-projection like thing or perhaps myself as benevolent witness. Thank goodness that phase has passed. But I'm still basically a trainwreck emotionally and feel like I've been run over by a truck. Depressed, zero ambition, very little appetite and I'm sleeping 10 hours a night.

A friend pointed out a similar thought as Francesca. If this could happen (i.e. planes drop out of the sky to kill people), then any of my other 'sacred truths' could also be betrayed. All bets are off.

Another friend suggested I was acting like a Viet Nam vet with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Having not been to war, I look to another possible source of my stress. I was paralyzed from Polio at age 4 so that was a huge betrayal of my young perfect view of how the world was supposed to be. It made me rethink how God fit into all of this. Maybe the 9.11.01 stuff matched on a national scale what I personally felt as a 4 year old. I plan to take a look at my core beliefs and see what damage there may be.

I've had a great massage, chiropractic adjustment and am going to a accupuncture treatment today.

Peace everyone,
Richard who has postie traumatic stress

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 12:49:48 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Richard, Francesca, Joe, et al. - PTSS
Message:
Thanks so much for all your posts. I keep thinking that if we are able to say what we really feel, it will help us to get through this.

I heard a very good grief counselor on TV say that the events of September 11 could bring back all the losses of our lives (including loss of trust, as you mentioned, Richard.) I know that that happened for me - I re-experienced a lot of the things I felt when sudden bad personal events happened to me in the past. I have been experiencing a lot of the feelings I felt when I was a child and really bad things happened, also feelings from when I was an adult and my father died suddenly - and from other experiences of sudden disaster. Richard, I think you are right on target for thinking that this brings back feelings from being a polio victim at such a young age.

Anyway, I don't have any words of wisdom - just hope that all of you (and all of us) are all right, I think there has been a real wound to all of our feelings of trust and security. I doubt that that wound will heal, exactly - since I don't think our feelings were based on reality, but I think we are strong enough to learn to live with it.

Lots of love to all of you -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Sep 28, 2001 at 00:59:55 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks Katie :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:09:32 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: To postie and everyone
Message:
Dear Richard, Joe, Joy, Rick, Pat, Chuck, Helen, et al.

I came back and read all your posts. Each one of you came up vividly for me as I read. Thanks for being my friends. You ARE doing something, just by doing that.

Joy's suggestion from Sogyal Rinpoche is something I've heard from many teachers -- and I think it's very non-denominational. To stuff down whatever arises will definitely make you ill. I think the fact that you are all even having these reactions shows that you are courageous enough to let them come up.

I've always found that I should let strong emotions come up and just be, but it's usually a bad idea to feed them, to judge myself (right or wrong, good or bad), or to lash out at others. It's sometimes hard to be practical about this, because we end up around others at times when we aren't in optimal shape. So we do the best we can. Saying 'I'm sorry' has always seemed to be good medicine, and brought me closer to many people in the long run.

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:13:17 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Take Care Richard
Message:
Poor guy. But it sounds like you are being good to yourself.

I have also been depressed, sleeping a lot and very distracted. But I have found that if I stick to my schedule, especially my exercise schedule, I do much better.

I knew I was in bad shape when a lawyer for an insurance company got pushy with me, which usually gets me more energized and interested, and I almost started crying over the telephone. I just was silent until I could get it together. I feel a lot better now, but that was weird. Kevin has said I've been 'distant' and he said he only 'got me back' on Sunday.

So, are you measuring your own blood pressure? And what did the naturepath recommend? The doctor has told me that my blood pressure is still in the normal range, but on the higher side. Since I don't smoke, I'm not overweight, I exercise all the time and I've been a vegetarian for 25 years, it must be hereditary, and maybe due to the kind of job I've worked. Frankly, though I blame Maharaji and the cult. I think that really raised my blood pressure ::))

Anyhow, it runs in my family and I wondered what the naturepath prescribed. I have been thinking of checking out Chinese medicine, just to make sure I don't get hypertension, because blood pressure is suppposed to rise as you age.

Anyway, Richard, I feel for you and I hope you have people to talk to about all this. I think that's really important.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 00:20:43 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks Joe, Francesca, Joy and all
Message:
Thanks for all of your concerns. No I'm not taking my own blood pressure, but my wife checks my pulse and the doctor did the bp. My Naturepath put me on a natural enzyme called Kavacin for the anxiety and it works to lower bp and pulse. Today, an accupuncturist friend put me on a Chinese formula to stimulate my pancreas and liver having diagnosed a slowdown there. We'll see. Yes I do have folks to talk with and I'm seeking professional counselling also. It would be pure luxury to cry right now. The accupuncuist said I may feel heightened emotions which would be welcome. I'm probably stuffing my emotions so far.
Richard.
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 17:54:28 (EDT)
From: Joy
Email: joyfenwick@onetel.net.uk
To: Richard
Subject: Wish I could give you all a hug
Message:
To all my dear friends in this thread, wish I could give you all a hug right now. It's times like this we need the people we love and I do love you guys all a lot. I think the whole of America, and all Americans everywhere, probably has a certain amount of PTSD right now, I know I have. I jump at the slightest noise and can't stand anything loud or jarring. Cry at the drop of a hat. I think the collective emotional body of America took a big hit, not just the buildings, and people are still reeling from and trying to come to terms with that. I watched the whole thing happen live on TV, on my birthday no less, which only added to the horror, knowing that thousands of people were dying at that moment as we watched those towers collapse.

Richard, I had a similar reaction to you the first few days, I just wanted to go and experience somewhere beautiful, a large garden or somewhere where I could be reminded that beauty and goodness still exists in the world and found myself wandering around an ancient stately home, taking consolation in the flowers and plants and their serenity.

A big cyber-hug for all of you, I know this will get better for all of us. If it's any help, Sogyal Rinpoche used to counsel people to feel their feelings, let them come up and out whenever and wherever they happen, don't stuff them in any way because you think they're inappropriate. I've found that very useful. If you need to cry, cry, if you need to rage, rage. That way they all seem to settle down much more quickly.

Love to all,
Joy

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 19:40:14 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: I send you a hug, Joy
Message:
I liked your sentence: ''I think the collective emotional body of America took a big hit.''

Americans have been accused of jingoist patriotism but in reality these were simply 7,000 of our friends, families and neighbors who were killed.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:10:20 (EDT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Thanks, Pat
Message:
Hi Patrick. Yes, I think that Americans, and people in every other country, all have a sort of 'collective unconscious' emotional body which binds them together, which is where patriotism springs from. Kind of like the way we're bound emotionally to our familly even though we don't see them much anymore. That emotional body/security was badly damaged because of the surprise element and horrible nature of this attack and it's making everyone feel very vulnerable right now (hence all the paranoia about chemical weapons attacks, runs on gas masks etc.), on top of the grief, shock, anger. Americans, particularly, don't like and aren't used to feeling vulnerable, so it's adding to the stress. I just worry that the excessive patriotism that arises from this feeling of vulnerability won't somehow do further damage in the world and spark more atrocities.

Well, that's enough armchair psychology for this morning. Do take care, glad to see you're still raving on here, though my slow computer is making it difficult to read most things.

Love,
Joy

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:26:58 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: We can't go on meeting like this
Message:
Although we obviously aren't very well synchronized since I was posting below while you were posting here. Too funny how many times it's happened to us though. Happy belated birthday. Now I am turning off the computer. Have a wonderful day.
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:17:32 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Hugs to you Joy
Message:
I guess it's times like these that I want to be with my friends. It's great to hear from you. Sorry I missed your birthday. What a weird birthday! I think I agree that letting it all out is important.

The weather here is gorgeous. Hey, I heard Mary Black is coming to town. That's something to look forward to!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:02:44 (EDT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hi Joe
Message:
Hi Joe. Thanks for the birhday wishes, though it truly was the birthday from hell.

The weather here is awful, and the Jimmie Dale Gilmore/Flatlanders show scheduled for November just got cancelled, about which I am bummed -- I was really looking forward to that, as he always puts me into 'that place', which I badly need right now. Enjoy Mary Black, anyhow, she's another one that does it (puts you in 'that place', that is).

Glad to hear you're hanging in there despite everything, I've been thinking about you. Sticking to routine is very helpful. Thanks for all the great posts you've been putting up here, I enjoy reading them and was a little worried when you didn't post for awhile.

Love,
Joy

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 18:50:00 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: How about Nanci Griffith??
Message:
She's touring England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland in October. You can check out the tour on her website. www.nancigriffith.com

Maybe that will make you feel better for a long time, or at least 'Once in a Very Blue Moon.'

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Date: Thurs, Sep 27, 2001 at 04:21:40 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: You're up early, Joy
Message:
How is the weather awful? I was just thinking today about having frozen fingers (not fish - mine) for 6 months every year in England. (We're basking in warm humid weather because of a juicy hurricane in Baja.) I hope you can bear the coming winter.

I'm off to bed.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 15:23:34 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Defining Moment
Message:
Well said, Francesca, and I think you are so right. There's something about seeing the absence, the lack of a driver for the car, no one sitting at the table, someone who doesn't, and won't ever, show up for an appointment. And you're right about about this being a defining moment we will all remember.

I remember on the day of the attack, before he talked about 'war,' Bush mumbled the usual lines about this being a 'cowardly act' and that we would be 'hunting them down' and 'making them pay' as if there could be a price on....on this.

I remember thinking at the time that it was such a dumb thing to say. These were not cowards; they were religious fanatics for sure, but they weren't cowards. And I hate to say it but I'm afraid they have achieved much of their purpose. Much of our 'spirit' has been broken, let's face it. Mine has. I had the strange experience a couple of days later, diving into a hotel swimming pool and feeling an instant panic for no reason. There certainly is a nervousness there.

I guess the point is that some of this terror has been instilled in us. We all have been kind of damaged, I think because 'Americans' were the target. So to a degree we have been dehumanized, Americans took the hit and all of us have absorbed it whether we realize it or not. Sure, the 'American spirit' will recover, but I think it will be with a scar.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 14:40:05 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You've got lots of company...
Message:
Where I grew up in Connecticut, NYC was close, you could go there and back in the same day. Made several visits via school field trips. I visited the WTC with a friend one summer, before moving out to California, even took some 8mm film footage, it was so impressive. It's not abstract to me.

My sister in Boston, said to me in a recent email:

''Just talked to one of my coworkers. Her sister was talking to some of the local firefighters who just came back from helping out in NY, and some of the things they told her were just so awful. You know, what they were finding in the rubble (like an airplane passenger with his arms pulled back tied to his seat ). And other details, like the fact that the media was very sensitive in what they showed on Sept. 11th - that there were actually hundreds of people falling/jumping from the towers - nor did they show how and where they were landing. The tragedy of it all is so troubling, I find that as time goes on I'm actually becoming more upset by what has happened.''

I worked for many years in the security business, with a lot of emphasis on highrise safety. I can't help but think about the details of what those people must have gone through. It's impossible to evacuate a building that big quickly, and many never had a chance to get out.

I saw an opinon poll, where most people were saying the towers should be rebuilt, just as tall or taller. I thought, they should ask the survivors. I doubt they will ever want to work again in buildings that tall.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 14:23:39 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, did you see that graph in Chronicle
Message:
last week that showed the square footage of WTC compared with SF's entire financial district? WTC was bigger and had more workers than all our office buildings combined. Destroying the WTC was the equivalent of wiping out SF's financial district and part of the commercial downtown.
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 18:19:20 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Yeah, I saw that.
Message:
The article said that the towers each had 4.7 million square feet of office space, and if you add all the buildings lost or damaged in New York, it's 24 million square feet, which is almost as much as the 29 million square feet in the entire San Francisco financial district.
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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 16:31:35 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: When war gets personal
Message:
To everyone in this thread.

Those are all terrible & frightening thoughts that you have all expressed & believe me they are shared by the majority here on the other side of the pond .

Here are 2 little anecdotes about realities that our generation has been spared from.

1 : My Italian sister-in-law's Grandmother owned a hotel in the Italian Alps & was a Fascist supporter when the whole trip fell apart. One day a 17 yr old partisan armed with a tommy gun walked in & told her he was taking over. She slapped him round the face , took the gun off him & told him to go home before he got killed . He went.
At about the same time this woman's nephew was 300 miles away on the other side of the country holding a pistol to the head of the chief engineer of a dam that the retreating Nazi's had ordered the sluice gates opened . The nephew was making sure that didn't happen , but the engineer's family were being held hostage to make sure he did what he was told.

He didn't open the gates : Don't know what happened to his family , but the nephew became a big hero afterwards.

2 : After throwing up a good job to follow the satguru to India in 1972 I ended up with a cruddy one later.
A guy I worked with on the night shift called Reg had been at the battle of El Alamein & survived.
He had then been posted to a camp outside Cairo where he & his mates used to steal rolls of mapping paper , treat them in some way so that they seemed to be cotton , & then barter them with the locals for chickens eggs fresh stuff to eat.
When washed , the clothes they had made out of this stuff fell apart
& so they came back irate to the camp.
Reg & his mates chased them away with fixed bayonets. When I said it's hardly surprising they didn't like you then , he said , nah you've got it the wrong way round , those fuckers wanted the Nazis to win so they could cut our throats , if it hadn't beeen for the officers we would've just shot them.

Bad news for everyone coming up.

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Date: Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 07:24:24 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Orwell connection
Message:
From http://www.nowarcollective.com/orwell.htm

Published on Saturday, September 22, 2001

Bush's Orwellian Address

Happy New Year: It's 1984

by Jacob Levich

Seventeen years later than expected, 1984 has arrived. In his address to Congress
Thursday, George Bush effectively declared permanent war -- war without temporal or
geographic limits; war without clear goals; war against a vaguely defined and
constantly shifting enemy. Today it's Al-Qaida; tomorrow it may be Afghanistan; next
year, it could be Iraq or Cuba or Chechnya.

No one who was forced to read 1984 in high school could fail to hear a faint bell
tinkling. In George Orwell's dreary classic, the totalitarian state of Oceania is
perpetually at war with either Eurasia or Eastasia. Although the enemy changes
periodically, the war is permanent; its true purpose is to control dissent and sustain
dictatorship by nurturing popular fear and hatred.

The permanent war undergirds every aspect of Big Brother's authoritarian program,
excusing censorship, propaganda, secret police, and privation. In other words, it's
terribly convenient.

And conveniently terrible. Bush's alarming speech pointed to a shadowy enemy that
lurks in more 60 countries, including the US. He announced a policy of using maximum
force against any individuals or nations he designates as our enemies, without color of
international law, due process, or democratic debate.

He explicitly warned that much of the war will be conducted in secret. He rejected
negotiation as a tool of diplomacy. He announced starkly that any country that doesn't
knuckle under to US demands will be regarded as an enemy. He heralded the creation of
a powerful new cabinet-level police agency called the 'Office of Homeland Security.'
Orwell couldn't have named it better.

By turns folksy ('Ya know what?') and chillingly bellicose ('Either you are with us, or
you are with the terrorists'), Bush stepped comfortably into the role of Big Brother, who
needs to be loved as well as feared. Meanwhile, his administration acted swiftly to
realize the governing principles of Oceania:

WAR IS PEACE. A reckless war that will likely bring about a deadly cycle of retaliation is
being sold to us as the means to guarantee our safety. Meanwhile, we've been
instructed to accept the permanent war as a fact of daily life. As the inevitable
slaughter of innocents unfolds overseas, we are to 'live our lives and hug our children.'

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY. 'Freedom itself is under attack,' Bush said, and he's right.
Americans are about to lose many of their most cherished liberties in a frenzy of
paranoid legislation. The government proposes to tap our phones, read our email and
seize our credit card records without court order. It seeks authority to detain and deport
immigrants without cause or trial. It proposes to use foreign agents to spy on American
citizens. To save freedom, the warmongers intend to destroy it.

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH. America's 'new war' against terrorism will be fought with
unprecedented secrecy, including heavy press restrictions not seen for years, the
Pentagon has advised. Meanwhile, the sorry history of American imperialism --
collaboration with terrorists, bloody proxy wars against civilians, forcible replacement of
democratic governments with corrupt dictatorships -- is strictly off-limits to mainstream
media. Lest it weaken our resolve, we are not to be allowed to understand the reasons
underlying the horrifying crimes of September 11.

The defining speech of Bush's presidency points toward an Orwellian future of endless
war, expedient lies, and ubiquitous social control. But unlike 1984's doomed
protagonist, we've still got plenty of space to maneuver and plenty of ways to resist.

It's time to speak and to act. It falls on us now to take to the streets, bearing a clear
message for the warmongers: We don't love Big Brother.

Jacob Levich (jlevich@earthlink.net) is an writer, editor, and activist living in Queens,
New York.

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