Mr. Dooley -:- re: Mr. Rawat and his message -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:30:02 (EDT)

Sir Dave }( -:- Scott - New bike faster than motorbike! -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:55:20 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Re: Scott - New bike faster than motorbike! -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:20:14 (EDT)

Bob -:- OT (Anthrax) -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:17:53 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- New article on EPO, worth reading analysis -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 04:46:27 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Another article in the same issue -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:22:22 (EDT)

__ berni -:- Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:28:43 (EDT)

__ __ salam -:- Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:17:59 (EDT)

Toby -:- Harbouring a terrorist , or -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 03:52:16 (EDT)

swami j. suchabanana -:- approval of 'tactical nuclear' weapons -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 23:55:18 (EDT)

__ berni -:- Fighting the mindset of fanatics -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 05:41:47 (EDT)

__ __ Tim G -:- Re: Fighting the mindset of fanatics -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 07:20:52 (EDT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Fighting the mindset of fanatics -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:29:48 (EDT)

Joe -:- EPO is still NUMBER ONE -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:50:04 (EDT)

Scott T. -:- Another creative idea, ala Barbara -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:43:16 (EDT)

__ salam -:- you can also try -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:26:53 (EDT)

__ cq -:- It's a fait accompli, Scott - -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 07:41:40 (EDT)

__ such -:- da dyke Eleanor Roosevelt Brigade! Onwards... -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:30:35 (EDT)

__ such -:- da dyke Eleanor Roosevelt Brigade! Onwards... -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:30:27 (EDT)

Francesca -:- ARIZONA?? not the tea -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:32:20 (EDT)

__ Selene -:- must be a rite of passage -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:15:48 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca ~) -:- Don'tcha just love those names (OT) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:14:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ PatD -:- Pretention alert -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:32:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- hey you've been there -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:39:18 (EDT)

suchabanana -:- step right up! hur-ry, hur-ry!! -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:51:16 (EDT)

hamzen -:- My/Your reasons for being here -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:34:24 (EDT)

__ Tim G -:- Re: My/Your reasons for being here -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:46:28 (EDT)

__ RichMandrake -:- Getting back..ON Topic..;-) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:47:49 (EDT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Rich, this is hysterical -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:31:01 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :) -:- Yes, it's nice to be back! [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:06:57 (EDT)

__ bill -:- Not 'supporting him' but imprisoned by him. [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:19:51 (EDT)

__ Francesca ~) -:- My biggest answer to the premies -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:39:08 (EDT)

__ Selene -:- Re: My/Your reasons for being here -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:47:55 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Therapy. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:31:50 (EDT)

__ __ Gregg -:- OT to AJW re Rai -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:17:36 (EDT)

__ PatD -:- Mine too by and large...... -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:48:14 (EDT)

__ Brian S -:- Re: My/Your reasons for being here -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:42:00 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Sating the obvious well and patiently -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:09:25 (EDT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Everyone read Hamzen and here's more! -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:44:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ PatD -:- Rawat as a real person -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:36:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Brian S -:- Great summary , Pat D -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 00:25:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca ~) -:- Pat D, GREAT post [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:56:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Rawat as a real person -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:38:38 (EDT)

Jim -:- David Andersen on 'catalyst' -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:47:29 (EDT)

__ bill-fer allahs sake, -:- what 'beauty of the techniques'? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:24:36 (EDT)

__ __ Susannah -:- Re: what 'beauty of the techniques'? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:58:33 (EDT)

__ hamzen -:- Like some bad 50's ad -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:24:48 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca ~) -:- Dear Ham -- drum & bass (OT) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:01:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ hamzen -:- Great music taste Francesca -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:37:55 (EDT)

__ Timmi -:- Re: David Andersen on 'catalyst' -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:33:22 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :) -:- **BESt OF FORUM** [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:03:39 (EDT)

__ __ JohnT -:- YES! Thanks Timmi. [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:31:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- did goober massage dave with oil? [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:20:43 (EDT)

Abi -:- Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:04:36 (EDT)

__ EiYDh -:- Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:59:07 (EDT)

__ hamzen -:- What a bunch of scumbags & lowlifes they are -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:14:39 (EDT)

__ __ Barbara -:- Darkness Masquerading as Light -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 01:00:34 (EDT)

__ Susan -:- Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:15:49 (EDT)

__ __ Gina -:- Sommerville - Glasserly - Leitner - Jacobs -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:01:46 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:02:18 (EDT)

__ magiclara -:- Love and support from me tooo Abi (NT) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:19:52 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:10:52 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- take care of yourself -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:06:14 (EDT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Dear Abi -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:14:28 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Yeah such me too -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:06:18 (EDT)

__ Timmi -:- Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:41:15 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- I am so sorry to heard about this -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:54:43 (EDT)

__ Gina -:- Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:36:34 (EDT)

__ __ Suzanne -:- What license does Valerio Pascotto have? (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:10:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ The Fencepost -:- Valerio Pascotto's licenses -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:26:02 (EDT)

__ __ Abi -:- Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:59:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Where's Abi's Post? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:30:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Gina -:- Re: Where's Abi's Post? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 21:57:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Have a good think, gerry -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:33:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Thanks for that Joey -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:58:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- I thank YOU, gerry -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 23:35:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ jOHNt -:- wHAt the F**%& -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:23:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: wHAt the F**%& -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:38:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- To Salam and JohnT -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:05:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ Gina -:- Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:29:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ PS to Abi -:- Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:33:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Marcia Leitner is a lawyer -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:28:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- PS to Abi -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:34:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: PS to Abi -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:39:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: PS to Abi -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:28:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:17:55 (EDT)

don -:- reply to bill -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 04:52:17 (EDT)

__ Jorge -:- Ugh! -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:08:40 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Maharaji or Allah: m's new 'enemy' -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 04:44:01 (EDT)

__ toby -:- to jm kahn -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 04:03:08 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Re: Maharaji or Allah: m's new 'enemy' -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:56:41 (EDT)

Disculta -:- Any fence-sitters lurking around? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:08:29 (EDT)

__ Peg -:- Thanks Disculta, saved it! [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:37:57 (EDT)

__ Gregg -:- sleeping with one's ex -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:58:58 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :) -:- Hello to you Gregg! -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:29:11 (EDT)

__ Francesca :) -:- Yes, PatC,** BEST OF FORUM***** -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:03:32 (EDT)

__ Timmi -:- Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:51:08 (EDT)

__ karen -:- Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:48:42 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Welcome, karen -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:05:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ Disculta -:- Yes, welcome Karen -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:15:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Yes, welcome Karen -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:36:34 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- ***BEST OF FORUM*** in ages -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:27:36 (EDT)

__ __ Zelda -:- Re: ***BEST OF FORUM*** -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:01:55 (EDT)

Scott T. -:- Human Powered Land Speed Record (OT) -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 23:20:14 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Human Powered Land Speed Record (OT) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:05:46 (EDT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Helmet Controversy -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:07:11 (EDT)

[Blank] -:- To da American Infidels -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 21:27:53 (EDT)

__ btdt -:- Re: To da American Infidels -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 00:20:52 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Pacific sunsets, Salam and btdt. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 02:32:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Pacific sunsets, Salam and btdt. -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:16:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Here in the Peoples' Republic... -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:53:27 (EDT)

Jim -:- Andersen's essay on 'responsibility' -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 20:40:57 (EDT)

__ Who's David kidding? -:- Re: Andersen's essay on 'responsibility' -:- Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 00:01:09 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- 'therapy' like this is dangerous -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:40:00 (EDT)

__ __ JohnT -:- Modest, she ain't ... -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:12:33 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Here's her answer to terrorism -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:52:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Finally -- shades of the guru or what? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:58:29 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Does she give good Shaktipat? -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:09:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Masters Of Sophistry -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:27:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Masters Of Sophistry -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:21:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Wonder if she was in 'the cult' -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:38:59 (EDT)

Jerry -:- 'Kill the Americans' -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 19:44:40 (EDT)

__ PatD -:- Re: 'Kill the Americans' -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 20:02:33 (EDT)

__ __ Rick -:- Re: 'Kill the Americans' -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 20:22:40 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- You Know Who is still greater than God -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 14:57:53 (EDT)

__ Timmi -:- Re: You Know Who is still greater than God -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:36:39 (EDT)

Timmi -:- an observation re: rawat's finances... -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 14:39:13 (EDT)

__ Francesca :C) -:- Here's a patent -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 01:42:36 (EDT)

__ Francesca :o -:- Yeah, Timmi, you're on to something -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 15:01:39 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- do you know if -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 19:26:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Re: do you know if (OT) -:- Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 00:49:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ btdt -:- for Francesca -:- Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 19:27:25 (EDT)

Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:30:02 (EDT) From: Mr. Dooley Email: None To: All Subject: re: Mr. Rawat and his message Message:

It has never been so clear as now that Mr. Rawat and his message is totally irrelevant. No one could think this little man has anything to offer in this world at war. Should he not be speaking up now or is he just content to maintain his own little cult of believers who find it to threatening to see him as he is?

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:55:20 (EDT) From: Sir Dave }( Email: None To: All Subject: Scott - New bike faster than motorbike! Message:

[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:20:14 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Sir Dave }( Subject: Re: Scott - New bike faster than motorbike! Message:

is this why you're angry?})

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:17:53 (EDT) From: Bob Email: None To: All Subject: OT (Anthrax) Message:

I haven't been posting much lately, (mostly work related). I do want to post my opinion about the probable anthrax attack. I think this is GREAT news!! Why?? because I suspect it was a try-out and it failed miserably!! (Only One victim in a buildig with ... ? workers) That means that al Quada is NOT able to handle biological warfare!!!!

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 04:46:27 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis Message:

What's Behind the 15-Year-Old Guru Maharaj Ji? by Gail Winder and Carol Horowitz [ The Realist article, december 1973 ]

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:22:22 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Another article in the same issue Message:

This Little Nipple Went to an Indian Sweat Lodge By Teenie Weenie Deanie I had been anticipating the sweat lodge for quite a few months. Dale had asked me sometime in the fall if I wanted to travel with him the next time he visited Raymond, a Shoshone medicine man who lived somewhere in Wyoming. Sure, I had replied . . . I mean, the way Dale talked about this guy made it sound too good to pass up; 'Probably a stronger power than don Juan,' the now famous Mexican sorcerer. I had read the books about don Juan, had experimented with some of the same drugs he used in his rituals, and was familiar with much of his symbology, through direct experience. But I had never met anyone who had those kinds of powers. I was really eager to make the trip. 'Maybe I'll be changed into a swallow . . . 'A typical cynical response. Dale talks about the eagle who appears during the sweat. Sure, man, an eagle. But of course I don't completely doubt him. Maybe, who knows. Dale tells me later than I am the first friend of his who has accepted his offer to go there. Too much hocus pocus for the average john. (I am, of course, a most different fellow.) For the next few months I kept bringing up the subject of the sweat lodge to Dale, and he always said that it would happen real soon. But I was ready to go every time I asked. I didn't quite realize just how serious Dale was about this place and this Indian man, that he wasn't up to making the trip until there was some real reason to go. My fantasies were growing larger all the time, the image of this terribly hot sweat lodge where one had to give up oneself to the heat or cry to be let out, where a great medicine man could read my mind and heal my soul. Where the great spirits of the American. lindens lived and breathed as humans . . . and on and on. 'Let's go, man!' We flew from San Francisco to Salt Lake, where we were going to meet Eric Short, a Cree Indian from Canada, who would take us to the sweat lodge 'under his own pipe.' Eric is a young ex-alcoholic working with Indian drinking problems, and an up-and-coming medicine man in his own right. He works with Dale, and had set up the trip to Wyoming. Jerry, another co-worker with Dale, had decided to come also, so there were four of us climbing into the rented car to make the 350-mile drive to Raymond's place. It was obvious to me that there were four different people making this trip . . . Dale was wound up with his problems, very quiet and sort of removed; and Jerry seemed also to be on his very own trip. Between the four of us, not much happened on the way there. A cold beginning, I kept thinking. What exactly am I doing here? I really don't know these people, and maybe I made a big mistake coming on their trip. But those kinds of thoughts weren't coming too often to bug me. I was ready for whatever, and just hoped it wasn't going to be more than I could handle . . . I was pretty sure that there wouldn't be much support from my companions if I needed it, we were all too strongly on our own trips to be of much help to anyone else. Very late that night we rented a motel a few miles from the place, in one of those western towns were everyone is drunk on the streets after 10 p.m. The kids were cruising the main street, flashing the 'V' sign, and the cops were busy busting a loud tavern full of Indians. Where we are going is actually on the Indian reservation, but this town is not, and it is here that the white man still puts his funny trips on the Indians . . . buy this, drink this, need this. I was not feeling in the best of spirits when I went to sleep that evening, especially after a long talk with Eric: A total complete male chauvinist pig; 'All I really want is coffee when I get up and my shirt to be ironed. If I can't get that, I look for a new chick.' Wait a minute, I said to myself, is this man going to be a holy man for his fellow Indians? He can hardly see anything of just about everything I consider to be most holy . . . freedom, individual rights, and an end to the 'Mr. Clean' era of freshly-ironed minds. 'Let's be natural' is my motto . . . and I had always thought that the Indians were the essence of Mr. Natural. What is going on here? My cynical paranoia, always passing judgment. The morning found us all more relaxed, getting' excited about the coming sweat. We hung around town until early afternoon, buying lots of food at the local Safeway for a big feast that evening . . . we bring the vitals and they provide the fixing. It was clouding up and threatened snow. A very strange town, cowboys and Indians, new Ford pickups and Marlboro smokes. Real Men. And me, one of those long-hair fairy pinkos from out of state. I was really feeling like an uptown hipster by the time we left for Raymond's farm. These people were so poor, and lived in such terrible houses. And the drive into the reservation didn't get much better. New Fords for driving down Main Street, and lowly shacks to keep out the Winter cold. And it was really getting cold. The road turned from blacktop to gravel, and then to dirt and mud. Ahead was a small house, two trailers, some funky shacks and a camper that fit the back of the pickup . . . this was Raymond's place . . . and there was the brand new Ford pickup. 'Oh boy,' I thought, 'are we in for it.' But no one else seemed to feel my uneasiness, and we walked into the house totally unannounced. Through a functional kitchen and into a small living room with a giant color television blaring out some football weirdness to some very funky-looking people. A toothless man with one of those gray mechanic hats and hip very toothless wife, I supposed, sitting together glued to the TV. Sure enough, Raymond and his wife. This was even more than I had hoped for. Here was Mr. Funky and his fat wife . . . and then the kids started coming though, and I had to stand up and shake hands with each one, so formal and tense, so unlike I had imagined this 'don Juan' to be. I really wasn't quite sure what I had imagined, but it wasn't this . . . and his children. so many of them for such a small house. And the pictures of the high-school graduations on the walls. I somehow felt like this man had completely copped out to the forces of his white conquerors. But not for long. Never had I seen a man so gentle with his children, yet so firm. And such a warm smile. In fact, he always had on a smile. In fact, he was always laughing. And so was his wife. She soon became one of the warmest people I had ever met. She had 14 children, and 11 grandchildren, many adopted, and all from different Indian nations. She had a child from just about every tribe I had heard of, and they quickly accepted me into their company and had me outside playing basketball in the snow. I was starting to get high, from such open people. Inside, we had met four of Raymond's daughters, very plain-looking women starting to put on weight, all in their teens and twenties, full of giggles and very shy. Soon they were out playing basketball too, and we were really moving that ball around. Everyone was so friendly (the best word I can think of) and really into playing. Raymond came out and walked over to a funny-looking tent affair not too far from the house . . . this was the sweat lodge, about 12 feet in diameter, and about 4 feet high, covered with old tarps and tents, very funky, very fitting with the rest of the farm. Raymond started chopping wood and building a big fire at one end of the lodge. I started taking pictures of everything, and he couldn't believe it, that someone would want to take his photo. But he told me not to take any of the lodge; it wasn't allowed. My firs hit of a mystical presence. Pretty soon he piled large pieces of volcanic rock on the fire, and more wood on top of them, and we all stood around the fire trying to keep warm. I understood why they played such vigorous basketball, just to keep warm. Looking around the horizon, it sure was beautiful, open land for as far as you could see, horses turned against the cold wind and snow off in the distance. I started to realize that this was the traditional homeland for these people for centuries. It was their land, always had been. I was a visitor from the United States. They were real goddamned Indians, and they weren't drunk like most of the ones I had contact with before. And they were really honestly friendly, not trying to hustle me for a quarter for more wine, and they were having me as a guest at their very important ritual, the sweat. The sweat: It is the purifier, the medium which brings the four elements of the universe - earth, air, fire and water -together so that we can pray for help from these forces, can pay our respects to them all at once. I was really beginning to feel something very large happening here. Soon some of the teenaged boys came running through the snow in swimming suits, and stood by the fire to keep warm. It was almost time for the sweat to begin. On the way to change into our suits, we three white men from the West Coast stopped individually to spend a moment with Raymond, to try and tell him why we had come to the sweat, what we wanted from the spirits of the sweat. I told him that I wanted my heart to be opened, for a better understanding of my heart and its power with my mind. He no longer looked like the ex-alcoholic toothless funny old man. When I spoke to him I was speaking to an ageless spirit, his eyes were so deep and his feeling so real, no joking around, a serious moment for both of us. That finished, we hurried to a small cabin to undress and then ran through the icy wind and snow back to the fire. And we waited for quite some time, a bunch of almost naked men and boys around a fire, laughing and joking and really feeling good. I really felt good. And I kept saying to myself, 'I am getting high, brother.' And Dale and Jerry and I were starting to feel closer, to share longer moments of eye contact, and a knowing smile that all was so nice. Soon Raymond came, and we followed him into the lodge; I had to squat down to walk around in it to the spot Raymond pointed out for me, around a deep pit in the center, I guessed, for the hot rocks. The inside of this place blew my mind. It was beautiful, willow branches woven into a frame, beautiful material covering it, and various little sacks and pieces of leather hanging from the wood. Soon the men and boys were in, and it was only half filled. The young kids were laughing at us, telling us how hot it was going to get. 'You must be crazy to come to such a hot place,' Raymond piped in, starting to laugh again. Soon all the women and their babies started to come in, and it filled up. I was sitting across from those daughters, and somehow they looked different to me. I realized that I was just being much more accepting of them, that I was no longer looking just at the physical, and was beginning to feel the real person inside the body. They were very real ladies, and it felt good to have them sitting with us. Raymond's wife spoke to us about the sweat, what to do if it got too hot, and how to use the stalks of sage we had picked up on the way in. Someone brought the rocks in, and I was ready. I couldn't imagine how hot they were talking about, I had been in many saunas before, but I wrapped my bare shoulders in a towel just in case, to keep off the steam. The flaps were closed, just as she was telling us that if it got too hot, start to pray for everyone in the lodge. We were packed in like sardines, the walls of the lodge up against our backs, the fire pit about a foot in front. Total darkness, very quiet; I could hear some water being thrown on the rocks 'Hiisssssss . . . 'and soon the heat began. The steam rose from the rocks, and flowed across the roof of the lodge and down the backs of the participants . . . it was hot, but it felt good. Suddenly there was a high-pitched voice penetrating the darkness, one of the sons was singing 'Hey Hey Yeh Yeh Hey. . .'and soon some of the women were joining in, and pretty soon I was singing some Hindu prayer I knew. The singing took my mind off the heat. More water, more steam, hard to breathe. Louder singing, such sweet sounds. Suck harmony I had never heard before. And more water, sounded like a whole bucket, and for a moment the heat was too hot to bear. But just at that moment Raymond yelled something in his Indian language, and the flaps were thrown open, at both ends, and the cool air from the outside rushed through the lodge. I was sweating profusely, and so were Jerry and Dale, sitting to my right, Eric to my left was just smiling, and I realized that I was too, grinning ear to ear. Everyone was smiling, and there hadn't been one sound of displeasure from any of the infants wrapped up in the arms of the women. I felt incredible, the sweats were supposed to last for four minutes, with a four-minute break, for four times. But time seemed to stop, it was not important. Soon the flaps were closed again. More water, more heat, and such beautiful singing. I was praying for Raymond and his wife, and their beautiful children, and my friends, and the shrill whistle that penetrated the air didn't seem unusual with all the singing. This time the final bucket of water was so hot that I fell forward to find cooler air to breathe; just as I was falling the flaps were again thrown open. Such relief, such perfect timing . . . Raymond, you are too much. This time as I gazed with a broad smile across at the women, I saw such beauty in womanhood sitting in front of me as I had never seen before. Here, sitting with me, seemed to be the ideal image of a woman, full of such peace and countenance, warm dark eyes full of earth, and it almost seemed that these ladies were growing right out of the earth. I was completely overcome with such a love for these people, my body was filled with their spirit. Raymond prepared a large pipe with tobacco, smoked some and then passed it around to each participant. It was a small ritual, but it strengthened the bond between all of us; we were all sharing the same pipe, the same space. Then darkness, the flaps were closed again. The third sweat was totally timeless. It could have lasted for hours, I was so high and praying like I had never prayed before. I was laughing and singing, yelling, trying to harmonize with the Indian songs, never quite making it, but it didn't matter. Even the heat was singing, and the lodge was filled with the sound of people slapping themselves . . . Raymond's wife had said earlier that if it got too hot, just slap where it was hot. I tried it, and the heat seemed to get worse. Must be something the Indians know how to do that I don't. I was spinning in joy when the flaps were opened for the third time. The women came from the universe, and their children, their children were the most beautiful I had ever seen, so light, so joyful. Raymond turned to us and said that the spirit had spoken to him, and had told him that all of our prayers would definitely be answered, if only we would be good. We felt so good, the spirit had come, everyone was so happy. It was only much later that someone told me the spirit had entered during the second sweat, and that he had blown his own loud whistle upon entering. The whistle . . . no one in the lodge had a whistle, who could have blown it? I know now that it was the spirit. Darkness again, for the last sweat. I started to sing, but soon realized that I was being drawn to chant a mantra I had learned from the Maharishi Mahesh, one that I had used daily for over six years. I was going into deep meditation, transcending the heat and the darkness. There was a strange noise to my left, the sound of a bird flapping its wings, and just then I felt the wing of a large bird rub up against my mouth and around my face. 'Far out,' I said, 'I just got rubbed by a bird . . . ' And then it flew on to my right. More chanting of my mantra, more heat, more incredible singing, such a sound, I could hardly believe it was really human. Then I thought to myself, wait a minute, what is a bird doing in this place? How did it get in? It wasn't possible for anyone to be running around inside, there just wasn't enough room. And before I knew it, the flaps were opened for the last time. I turned to Jerry, who was next to me on my right. He was wiping the weirdest-looking stuff off of his forehead, almost looked like the stuff you blow out of your nose. But coming from his forehead. And his forehead had a bright red line running across it. Everyone was so high, hard to believe. Slowly we filed out of the lodge, to the left of a mound of dirt at the opening with an animal's skull sitting on top, everyone laughing and oblivious to the falling snow. Dale, Jerry, Eric and I walked slowly the 200 yard to the cabin, the snow melting as it hit our skin. As we dressed I asked Dale if he felt a bird flying around in the lodge, and he laughed at me. 'Man, that was an eagle.' I told him how the bird had rubbed up against my mouth. 'Maybe he was telling you something old buddy.' More laughter by everyone. and I said, 'Maybe I use my mouth too much.' I spoke the truth. Dale said that the eagle had stopped in front of him and had blown cool air into his face. And once before the bird had only appeared to Raymond's wife, and he had heard her praying and thanking the spirit for visiting her. By the time we were dressed we were in that blissful place so desired yet so seldom experienced during life, and we all knew it. We marveled at how high we felt, how beautiful everything was, and on and on. Back inside Raymond's house a giant banquet was waiting lot us, fried chicken, roast beef and all the goodies we had brought from town. What a feast, the whole family sitting together at the table. Clyde, the 10-year-old, finished first, and sprang up to a chalk board behind the table. He wrote 'Love is happiness. Some bring it by coming and some bring it by leaving.' And then lie laughed, having put in his two-cents-worth. We literally floated through dinner, agreed that we felt good enough to try and make the drive back to Salt Lake, said many, goodbyes to these warm people, and set off from this Indian household late at night, in a driving snowstorm, for the trip back. Eric drove us through and over a most incredible snow-covered road. In fact, there was no road to see, and the falling snow seemed like strobe lights hitting the windshield. We passed over an h000-foot pass, totally dangerous, without a hitch . . . we all knew that nothing could go wrong. We had the power, whatever it wat . Back to Salt Lake for a few hours of sleep, and then we caught an early morning plane to San Francisco. Into a car and on the freeway to our homes in Santa Cruz . . . Man, I had sat with an eagle. We had all sat with an eagle, and we knew it, and what does it mean? I hope to sit with an eagle again.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:28:43 (EDT) From: berni Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis Message:

Thanks Jean-Michel, Brilliant article - but it is painfull to confront how foolish I/we were being on the side of the premies. During the 70's, whilst many of my peers were trying, whether or not successfully, to do something about the real problems in the world through political activism, I was becoming a premie. Maybe if I'd joined those politicos I would have, like a few did, gained a position of power and influence rather than being an unskilled, powerless member of the proletariat now too old to do much about becoming anything else, due to having wasted a quarter of a century pursuing mystical goals. It's embarrassing to read the piece,as I remember someone outside the Astrodome festival trying to get me to read what I think was the same article, of course no premie would read such a thing and regarded all those who wrote or read such things as sad and dangerously lost in the illusion of their evil minds. There are so many good parts but just to pick out one premie's answer to the criticisms made by the journalist... As we made our exit, two men from the office followed us out onto the street. They wanted to give us some more Satsang, and couldn't understand why we were angry and upset. One of the men was genuinely confused, and wanted to smooth things out and make us feel better. The other stood there mocking us, grinning and staring and full of hate. Suddenly I lost control and started screaming that they were robots, incapable of understanding or displaying any human emotions or reactions. Smack! Everett (the one with the evil eye) hit me in the face with a roll of posters (of the Guru, no doubt) he was carrying. 'That's reaction,' was his only explanation. What is even more embarrasing, although I gradually came to realise it as I was going through the gradual process of deprogramming myself, is that the whole thing was such a conservative, right-wing, even racist movement founded on mind control and emotional manipulation rather than the more sane approach of rational debate. Oh well berni

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:17:59 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: berni Subject: Re: New article on EPO, worth reading analysis Message:

great article. I always thought that DUO/DLM/EV was a racist organisation headed by an elite.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 03:52:16 (EDT) From: Toby Email: None To: All Subject: Harbouring a terrorist , or Message:

harbouring a paedophile.The terribrle events now proof to anybody that whoever is harbouring criminals of any kind , do not only share their attitiude , they indeed live under the same blanket.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 23:55:18 (EDT) From: swami j. suchabanana Email: bananas@messengersofarchangels.org To: All Subject: approval of 'tactical nuclear' weapons Message:

Tactical Nuclear Weapons Deployed 6 October: DEBKAfile’s military and intelligence sources report that Presidents George W. Bush and Vladimir Putin, in a single 70-minuted conversation on September 23, eleven days after the terrorist assaults in New York and Washington, agreed on the deployment of tactical weapons. This is an epic shift in the global balance of strength. Putin gave the nod for US forces poised in Central Asia to jump into Afghanistan to be armed with tactical nuclear weapons, such as small neutron bombs, which emit strong radiation, nuclear mines, shells, and other nuclear ammunition suited to commando warfare in mountainous terrain. In return, Bush assented to Russia deploying tactical nuclear weapons units around Chechnya after Moscow’s ultimatum to the rebels, some of whom are backed by Osama Bin Laden, to surrender, went by without response. DEBKAfile’s military sources place the US nuclear weapons in four former Soviet Central Asian bases: the military air facility at Tuzel, 15 km (10 miles) northwest of the Uzbek capital of Tashkent; at Kagady in the Termez region; in Khandabad, near the city of Karshi; and at the military air base in Dushanbe, the capital of Tajikistan. In addition to the nuclear weapons units, Russian bombers carrying small neutron bombs were moved to Russian military air bases around the border of the breakaway province, in Stavropol northwest of Chechnya, the Godowta base in Georgia to the south, and Mozdok in northern Osetia, northwest of Chechnya. Russian and U.S. military sources refuse to take questions on these startling events. The US is far from eager to actively inject a nuclear element into the war against terrorism and will not be the first to do so. According to DEBKAfile’s military sources, the US plans to hold those tactical nuclear weapons in reserve, unleashing them in the campaign against bin Laden only in certain extreme circumstances: 1.  To counter a move by Bin Laden’s men first bring out nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against the US force fighting inside Afghanistan. 2.   If a chemical or biological assault by the Taliban against Pakistan. 3.   Should groups of bin Laden’s Al Qaeda network – either in Central Asia or the Balkans – wield these weapons of mass destruction against US military targets or US nuclear arms in other parts of the world. 4.  If using them is the only way to save heavy American combat casualties.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 05:41:47 (EDT) From: berni Email: None To: swami j. suchabanana Subject: Fighting the mindset of fanatics Message:

Thanks for that Such, although, after hearing a discussion on some news programme last night about the possible nuclear war between Israel and Iraq, I think I would be better off not knowing any of this stuff. Do they know what they are doing? There is no doubt that this will escalate quickly - in the last few days the riots in Pakistan and the protests by Muslims in other parts of the Middle East point to gathering division between the two sides in what will undoubtedly be a 'holy war'. I can't help feeling this is exactly what the terrorist attack on the WTC set out to achieve. What I can't understand is the long term aim of this 'war on terrorism'. In this case it translates into a war on muslim fundamentalism which can never be won. I know Divine Light Mission is a far cry from the fanaticism of the various Islamic groups, but, having been in such an organisation we know that the more the leader/guru/master is attacked the more the followers will stop at nothing to carry on the way of life that the master/cult/holy book has laid down. It is not even direct orders such as fatwah or agya, it is a generic attitude to overcome the dark forces of the non-believers ( 'manmath' or whatever - the likes of us ). It even seems, from the footage on T.V. of thousands marching with banners bearing the photo of Bin Laden, that the beginning of the attacks on Afghanistan is turning him into a hero and his religious/political teachings into something worthy in the eyes of many Muslims. I know that there is a possibility that the invasion of Afghanistan may succeed in the aim of getting revenge on those suspected of organising the catastophe of Sep 11, but I just wonder how this strategy (whatever it may be ) will ever erase terrorism which is not centered in any country but in the minds of these crazy people in countless organisations and 'cells' throughout the world? Does anyone think that those in power have considered the long term aims of what they are doing, as there seems to me and other powerless laymen that I have talked to, that what is going on could result in a world situation that doesn't bear thinking about. Sorry if this is a bit OT but please, if anyone has anything positive to say about what is going on, speak up and help to set an old non-believing ex-premies mind at rest. berni

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 07:20:52 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: berni Subject: Re: Fighting the mindset of fanatics Message:

Hi Berni It is, as you say, turning into an unthinkable situation. It don't smell good to me. America sadly lacks creative leadership although the country is packed with creative people. Th problem is fairly clear, namely dogmatic and cult thinking, Fundamentalist narrow thought is deadly. As the late Krishnamurti said 'Ideals are dangerous things'. How do you derail or more to the point put back on the rails a rabid idealist? Certainly NOT by bombing him/her. Notice that it is usually him BTW, So we need some different tactics. Bomb the countries with food conveniences and gifts, Show the people that they are not thriving under theocratic rule. Apprehend Bin Laden and give him a sex change. Start a dialectic on the value or otherwise of Belief (in my opinion more dangerous than dynamite) Enter into debate and bomb only with gifts. OK you say that might be naive. Look what the alternative is..and has always been. Love Tim

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:29:48 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: berni Subject: Re: Fighting the mindset of fanatics Message:

Bush and Putin aren't fools and Russia has vast experience in successfully (albeit brutally) dealing with terroism which can only help George W in making the right decisions. I think it's inevitable that this will fractionalise into two clearly opposing factions spread over a large area and not respecting national bounderies. So there could well be civil war in Muslim countries and probably great civil unrest in Western countries too. There's already been considerable civil unrest and riots in British Muslim areas, before 11th September. This will only make things worse. However, the actual Musim countries where civil war may break out, such as Pakistan, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia, won't in my view destabalise the world because the people allied to bin Laden do not have the wealth and arms neccessary to overthrow their govenments.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:50:04 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: All Subject: EPO is still NUMBER ONE Message:

Hi guys, just got back from a long trip, but just checking in to say that I just looked again at the Lycos search engine which will search websites by which ones get the most traffic. When asked to search for which 'Maharaji' sites get the most traffic, Ex-premie.org is, once again, numero uno. Drek's site is number two, Maharaji's site is FOURTH and Elan Vital is FIFTH. Parts of the EPO sites are 6th and 9th. Sir Dave's 'truth about Maharaji' site is 7th, which is no longer on line, even through much of it is now on 'It Is So.' The section of the EPO site with the plans to Maharaji's 'residence' get so much ilnternet traffic, that particular page is the 9th most popular. You can see for yourself at www.lycos.com

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:43:16 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: All Subject: Another creative idea, ala Barbara Message:

Hi: I was just talking with an old girlfriend of mine from HS and she had this marvelous idea on how to conduct the war in Afghanistan; something I'd never have thought of myself. I don't know if it's entirely feasible, but there might be a way to operationalize it on some scale. Basically her idea is to have units composed of women during the ground war. Now, I don't think we have such units now, and don't think we've trained women to do that anyway, but why couldn't we field a few Special Forces units composed entirely of women and use them in the critical assault of the Bin Laden forces if and when we identify their location? What a total and complete humiliation of these machismo blowhards! He would hardly be regarded as a martyr, having been defeated by mere women, and it also says something about the US attitude toward terrorism. Now don't take this the wrong way ladies, because this is from the point of view of the Muslim world, but it says that we don't even regard these terrorist units as worthy adversaries for our men. We let our women take car of them! Now, isn't that an absolutely GREAT IDEA? The question is, how do we convince Bush to start training female commandos? --Scott

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:26:53 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: you can also try Message:

Air drops

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 07:41:40 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: It's a fait accompli, Scott - Message:

I just went to the Marines' website at http://www.marines.com/tour/02strip/index.html and couldn't believe the headline which reads: 'One must first be stripped clean. Freed of all the false notions of self'. Blimey, sounds like a boot camp for Buddhists. As to women in the forces, quote 'Today, 768 women account for 4.3 percent of all Marine officers and 8,051 women make up 5.1 percent of the active duty enlisted force in the Marine Corps. These numbers continue to grow, as do opportunities to serve. Ninety-three percent of all occupational fields and 62 percent of allpositions are now open to women.' (From http://www.usmc.mil/info.nsf/Women) You wanna see what a 'Lady Leatherneck' looks like? Just click here (and you may be surprised!)

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:30:35 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: da dyke Eleanor Roosevelt Brigade! Onwards... Message:

oh, ye strap-on batallions, allons enfants de la mere tri-couleur!

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 02:30:27 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: da dyke Eleanor Roosevelt Brigade! Onwards... Message:

oh, ye strap-on batallions, allons enfants de la mere tri-couleur!

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:32:20 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: All Subject: ARIZONA?? not the tea Message:

Just echoing Donner's post and Jean-Michel's post below about the recent meeting with M and the 'donors' in Arizona. Anybody have any concrete info about when, where, who went, how invited, and what went on? Inquiring minds ... and all that. Peace, F

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:15:48 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Francesca Subject: must be a rite of passage Message:

That I don't have a clue what they met about. Last I heard it was a fund raiser for Amaroo and a synchronicity tune-up. I'd be willing to say it involved money somehow. But alas, none of them talk to me anymore. oh and i'm sure it was Phoenix, no where left in AZ to go. M likes The Pointe an exclusive resort. That's where he was last in AZ, eesh what a memory I brought my husband. What a polite person he is, to not have told me to take the shuttle home.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:14:35 (EDT) From: Francesca ~) Email: None To: Selene Subject: Don'tcha just love those names (OT) Message:

That I don't have a clue what they met about. Last I heard it was a fund raiser for Amaroo and a synchronicity tune-up. I'd be willing to say it involved money somehow. But alas, none of them talk to me anymore. oh and i'm sure it was Phoenix, no where left in AZ to go. M likes The Pointe an exclusive resort. That's where he was last in AZ, eesh what a memory I brought my husband. What a polite person he is, to not have told me to take the shuttle home. --- ... like 'Pointe'??? They are so pointless!!! Pretention alert! It reminds me of cheezy new subdivisions with oversized homes and carriage lamp lights. Ah yes, we are wealthy, uppercrust (uh, make that uppercruste). More like the new money crowd. Ah, yes, they are so, so ... riche! I always thought that M went for a lot of stuff that was cheezy and pretentious, but we told ourselves he had such 'immaculate' and 'impeccable' style. I kinda excused him because he was like a Hindu kid in a candy store in our culture. He's probably gotten a bit better, but he is so much like someone who doesn't know what to do with all that money, so into pretention and looking the part of the rich man. Always hob nobbing in Beverly Hills on the premies' dime. Oh, and the latest is that he's an 'ordinary guy.' LOLs, sweetie. Francesca

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:32:39 (EDT) From: PatD Email: None To: Francesca ~) Subject: Pretention alert Message:

Yeah right , I'll bet he's so proud of himself that he had the good taste to turn down the rhinestone encrusted suit with the slight flare to the trouser leg that he always fancied when he was about 12 . You've gotta laugh at the little prick.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:39:18 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Francesca ~) Subject: hey you've been there Message:

yeah, pretty silly stuff. I was being generous calling it exculsive. I think the claim to fame is that it is built on a hill of barren rock, so it's higher in elevation than the rest of that dismal city. hmmm.. they must have gotten summer rates or the McXXXXX's are in persona gratis status. (Hi you two how's it going? Heard your kids got knowledge. hmmm.)

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:51:16 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: All Subject: step right up! hur-ry, hur-ry!! Message:

Supplies are limited! http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/hottopics/attack/exploi100801.htm Yes, ma'am, dose cwazy dude pinatas are selling like hotcakes. btw, re 'bin laden'. is dat, like, 'a weighted down, vermin-teeming garbage bin reeking of rotten pork'? [ http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/hottopics/attack/exploi100801.htm ]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:34:24 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: All Subject: My/Your reasons for being here Message:

Bjorn has just asked me why I am into anti-propagation, when I got so much from the practice of knowledge. A good question I thought. Wondered what everyone elses reasons were for being here, since the hate filled one is so obviously a caricature. Mind you in premie terms, it probably is hate, because any expression or discussion about anything dark is negative and anti-life. Why would anyone focus on such thoughts etc etc The following is my post to Bjorn Your post ''There are loads of exes who got plenty from the practice of k, and who state it quite openly, if anything I got more from it than I had hoped, and my hopes were quite high.' why spend time and energy doing antipropagation?' There are a number of reasons for me personally, can't state for anyone else. Committment to truth. Having been brought up by a buddhist inspired single mother very committed to human justice and truth, and having been inspired by that from the start, I know I can't just switch off from it because it's uncomfortable to face it/deal with it. I would much rather be doing other things with the time I spend around this issue, (still a VERY small part of my life, and greatly reduced during the last year) but that would be too easy. (1) I know for a fact that there are loads of premies suffering from mental constrictions and lila knots that they don't know how to deal with. A fellow called Bryn put up his journey on forum 7 the other day that explained why the ex-premie site had been so valuable to him. It had been the verbalizing of feelings he'd had for years but had never found the language to express it with, that site gave him the language to embrace the courage/resolve to finally move on. I know countless instances of others expressing exactly the same sentiments. (2) The realization that gm had no intention of truly spreading the value of k, the time I wasted hanging around, constantly making excuses for him, and blaming the premies and EV for the total failure to spread something I saw as totally precious. In other words doing my bit not not let him get away with it quite so easily as he had done for thirty years. (3) The HUGE waste of funds and energy put in by premies thinking they were helping to spread k, when mostly they were just enabling gm to act like a kid in a sweetshop. Did you know he's so committed to spreading k that he will not do tours unless he's GUARANTEED $10,000 a day in expenses. I had no idea just how corrupt he was til I read that, and had it confirmed from a number of reliable sources. (4) Finding out about the historical roots of k, and realizing just how many lies I'd been told over the years. Parallel to this, reading about the follower of the completely fake nigerian guru maharaji who posted at the forum three or so years ago, who came upon our site by accident, and had been having very powerful, beautiful meditation experiences, and had been attributing them to HIS guru maharaji who he thought was the source of those experiences. (5) This made me realize just how much those of us who had gained a lot from k had been denying just how much the pleasure we had had from k had been purely our own focus & personal 'grace'. (6) Hearing from so many ashram premies the garbage and abuse they had taken from gm over the years, especially those who had had regular official meetings with him re ashram stuff, and the awful health & safety abuse of the DECA premies indulging in another of gm's whims and whipping boy mentality. Tied in with this was my realization at how unjust I had been from my lofty spiritual perch over the years with official premies, I owed it them to do my bit for all my bad judgements. Again tied in with this the realization that a lot of them were VERY sincere in their practice over the years, but had experienced very little, and weren't just fakes and poseurs as I had always assumed. Again I owed it to them. (7) Reading the outright lies posted by EV and gm about the historical route in the west he had taken, and why the ashrams had existed. That they think they can get away with that is outrageous and an affront to too many people who knew completely differently, almost on a par with soviet revisionist history, even I never thought he could stoop THAT low. Also the fact that when people signed up to the ashrams they had made a contract with gm, they surrendered the reigns of their lives to him, and his part of the contract was that he would enable them to stay in the ashrams for their lives. He broke that contract very soon after he was still abusing people in meetings for leaving. Last but very definitely not least, out of respect for all those supposed bongoes, who were totally committed to believing that gm meant every word he said, but were either unable to deal with the ashram pressure, or were unable to commit themselves as much as gm implied they should and felt unworthy, or just plain were getting no experience and felt again from many things he had said, that they must be unworthy, because the grace wasn't happening for them. If a group of no more than 30 ex-premies could add up over 100 premie suicides, can you imagine what the full figure is like, heartbreaking to imagine. Tied in with this was the kind of abuse that Jagdeo got away with for years, the abuse that those who've come forward have had to take from gm/ev because of that which is almost more insulting than the original abuse, the cover-ups for Fakiranand etc. Also the fact that gm could abuse his authority and seduce premie women, and then dump them in a horrible manner is appalling. I could go on, but those are the main points. By the way I don't feel hate for gm, I feel a mixture of righteous anger, and sadness for him, for being so lacking in feeling and courage, truly a little man, when he had everything going for him, and a truly superb caring heartfelt bunch of individuals supporting him.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:46:28 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: hamzen Subject: Re: My/Your reasons for being here Message:

Hi Hamzen. That's a great post..says it simply and poignantly

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:47:49 (EDT) From: RichMandrake Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Getting back..ON Topic..;-) Message:

I cant tell you how good it is to open the Webpage to This Forum and to find again...Cogent..Insightful and Relevant Posts about...of all things..MAHARAWAT..the Master..Mindfucker himself ... It was a few months ago that I found this site and began the final Unraveling of the Odyssey that began in my adolescence when I picked up a hitchiker who was going to a meeting where they talked about a 14 year old boy who claimed he could reveal knowledge of God within.. And now, in the last year of my 4th decade I finally wandered across information and insight that let me see behind the curtain of the Great and Powerful Wizard... This Forum, when On Topic, is a UNIQUE and Powerful Asset for those of us who were Ensnared in the Labyrinth Of MahaRawats Deceit. It is still all New to me..and though I am now convinced that MahRawat is a fraud...the Belief systems and the Energy I have Put into them over the years still linger...Robbing me of My Life..my Choice..My Freedom.. Though the World Events of the Last Month are Compelling...I personally have found the discussion of them on this forum to greatly dilute this forum's effectiveness...at least for me...Apart from being amazed and appalled by some of the commentary from people who I had formerly felt kinship with as fellow Ex-premies, I missed the focused discussion of MahaRawat and Knowledge that ONLY the Interaction on this site and the Information on Ex-premie.org gives me... For those of you, who are dilitant exes...having left years ago and abandoned the belief systems impressed on us by The Satrugu...You May not have be aware that this Forum is a POWERFUL Aid in the Ongoing Process of Self Deprogramming that some of us are still going thru.. Anyway, I have little illusion of being able to direct the topic of conversation here..But I did want to Say Thank You, to those who have been posting so powerfully On Topic recently...Incredible Posts by Hamzen, Disculta, Francesca..come to mind...Anyway..thats it..and BHOLE SHRI EX PREMIE DOT ORG KI JAI!!....RichMandrake..

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:31:01 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: RichMandrake Subject: Rich, this is hysterical Message:

Rich ended his post with this: ' BHOLE SHRI EX PREMIE DOT ORG KI JAI!!....RichMandrake.' He he he

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:06:57 (EDT) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: RichMandrake Subject: Yes, it's nice to be back! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:19:51 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Not 'supporting him' but imprisoned by him. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:39:08 (EDT) From: Francesca ~) Email: None To: hamzen Subject: My biggest answer to the premies Message:

Why do you care??? But you have said it all, and several others on here. If there weren't perfectly wonderful people straggling in, saying they'd practiced this stuff for 28 years, following M and trying to think the best, I'd bag it and we could just be an 'anything goes' discussion group. But that's not the case. My other big point, and my major one is that I didn't get as much out of Knowledge as I've gotten out of a lot of other types of meditation, and none of those other teachers or groups put me through the crap you get put through to receive Knowledge. This is what I told my friends Pat C. and Chuck S. over a year ago when we had our discussion where we were all examining our spiritual affiliations. (Subsequent to that discussion, we quit the groups we were involved in.) The meditation techniques are not that awesome, really, there's loads of them out there to be learned. Thus I don't have anything to be eternally grateful for but what I tap into or focus on using those tecniques, that I can tap in and focus on a variety of ways, that I tapped in and focused on before I received K. And it's not a matter of gratitude, it's just a matter of waking up. Some of that is our own doing. Not to get lost in being egotistical about it, but there isn't this Spriritual Power, God or whatever that picks us up, totally clueless and useless until he/she/it does!!! We are a part of everything, and that thing we are told to worship is what WE are, in essence. You can't totally surgically remove it from the rest of yourself and worship it like that. But oh, people try to. What a trap. Not only that, but along with the techniques comes M's messed up philosophy. The cruelest dualism M -- and the Hindu dogma that he derived his warped philosophy from -- whopped on us is that 'inside' and 'outside' stuff. Like the truth is inside, and this ucky stuff is 'the world.' I believe and experience that there are gross levels of reality, and believe and experience there are definitely what the Buddhists call 'kleshas,' or mental defilements that cover the true nature of things like clouds cover the sun. But there is still light, even behind the clouds. Put simply, we have moments where we are more aware, and in the present moment, than at other moments. I can't imagine someone trying to retreat "inside" during a major catastrophe, for example. So I think, in the end, he does more harm than good, and those 'sincere seekers of truth' as he called us, should be told they might want to look elsewhere. I don't mind being a lighthouse on the rocks. Love, Francesca

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:47:55 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Re: My/Your reasons for being here Message:

That's it exactly Hamzen. It's the first-hand testimonies of those who have been damaged and the blatant smokescreen the cult hides behind. And it's still happening. It's why I care. On a personal note my life has finally come around quite nicely after a few years away but I'll never forget the lessons. NO MORE CHARISMAtIC LEADERS or personality cults.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:31:50 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Therapy. Message:

Hi Hamzen, I've found it very therapeutic to post on the forum. I spent so long in the cult, believing I was dedicating my life to the Creator, that it has taken a while to untangle myself and my thoughts from the shite I swallowed as a premie. A couple of times I've had conversations here with people that have genuinely moved my perspective to a healthier place. And I thank everyone for that. You develop a secret, hidden, fear as a premie, that, if you stop practicing and leave Rawat, something terrible will probably happen to you. Expressing my doubts and feelings has definitely helped overcome this fear. On another tack, the eternal quest you sent me on for, 'Space is the Place,' and 'What have you done.' has ended up with two blind alleys so far. And it looks like you gotta go to Marrakesh to get vinyl Rai. Anth, who used to scratch his albums in the 60s.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:17:36 (EDT) From: Gregg Email: None To: AJW Subject: OT to AJW re Rai Message:

You mentioned Rai...I've been playing a cut from the recent Cheb Mami CD over and over today. Fantastic! And...Space is the Place...are you talking about Sun Ra? I used to be a big fan of his and saw him play lotsa times in the seventies and eighties. Gregg

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:48:14 (EDT) From: PatD Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Mine too by and large...... Message:

.....although there's an element of favourite soap opera compulsion in my own reasons for being here . I admire the people who have kept up the battle on this & previous forums against the propagandists of this lowlife rip off merchant , & those who have taken the time to try & work out what the hell it was /is all about. I look at LG now & then but the thought of trying to engage in dialog with someone like Bjorn just depresses me. Good for you that you are prepared to do it.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:42:00 (EDT) From: Brian S Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Re: My/Your reasons for being here Message:

I have also come to review my many reasons for being here and reclaiming my free will. You covered many of the same reasons and issues nicely in your post Hamzen regarding the conflict of separating what good I got from knowledge as opposed to the truth regarding the dysfunctional process that goes with it. I do not hate m either, nor I am not fueled by anger towards him. I mainly just do not repect him anymore and cannot accept the way he chooses to do business as a purveyor of truth when he himself falls so short of it by his example. He lives his life on a do as I say basis not do as I do. I feel that at one point in time he felt as if he was the savior incarnate, that he held the only keys to the experience of Knowledge and so did I. Only now I know better and I think that he does too, I am willing to openly tell the whole truth about that and he does not appear to be able to. He could openly state upfront, that there are many ways and many masters, many paths, and that he is just one method, one way, not the only way. I know he has a lot to lose in doing so but it is not as if I did not have a big investment in this thing either. I bought into the cult in a big way and I put my life, my money and emotions into the practice and the cult wholeheartedly. It was/is not easy to rake over 29 years of beliefs and examine them with out predjudice and honestly admit that things are not quite right. And then do something about it, take true action according to my own heart based on factual knowledge and leave the cult and m behind. For me that did not mean leaving the meditation techniques entirely, it just meant that I had a broader picture of what they were and accordingly who m was. These are age old techniques, they are useful and they are revealed by many and m is just one of the many sources not the exclusive source. It doesn't bother me that he is not the only one, what disapoints me is that he does not tell you that. He allows you to believe that he is the sole owner or proprieter of these methods and he continues to further his cause on this premise. That to me does not represent a master of truth, there is no truth or mastery there, this is more akin to a less than reputable salesmen leaving out the facts and not fully dicloseing important facts that may affect ones decision. The interesting phenomena is that I have and still do experience the knowlegde by itself as a positive. Why? because that part of it is still true for me. What is different is that I can now consciously and collectively verbalize my newfound truths about who maharaji is in the matter and deal with that as well. The reason that I can separate these two seemingly conjoined things today is because I know the truth about each of them so much better. Factual knowlegde, emotional knowledge, spiritual knowledge you can have them all and not need a master or a guru to run herd over them. There is the big difference, and that is why I choose to be an ex-premie today. I have graduated my need for dependancy, I am my own master

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:09:25 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Sating the obvious well and patiently Message:

I could not have said it better. Like you I do not hate Rev Rawat but occassionally I will find myself feeling very indignant that, all the while I was taking him very seriously, he was playing games with my mind, my feelings and my money and time.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:44:52 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Everyone read Hamzen and here's more! Message:

I couldn't have said it all better either. It's a complete summary of all the reasons why many of us still come here. I have a wonderful life, great marriage, fulfilling, creative career etc. etc. (I sound like my old friend Erika!). MJ doesn't figure in my life either. If people weren't still trickling out with horror stories I would never bother coming here. I remember talking many years ago to a good friend who had been MJ's accountant at one time. It was a few years after both of us left, and he wasn't even interested in talking about the whole thing, which he called 'about as significant as a flea on an elephant's ass.' He wasn't suppressing anything, he was just enjoying life so much now (cackle). I remember that even then, about ten years ago, I felt that this description of the flea and the ass just about summed up my feelings about MJ too. I had already found much more profound and integrated experiences of connection to my source, and lots of other interesting stuff. Who cared about MJ. Then I came across a little newsgroup where Jim and I and a few other exes were talking about the whole thing. This was years ago. Premies came and argued and I realized that there were people STILL BELIEVING THAT STUFF! And it became a minor hobby of mine to hang around a bit on the edges, and contribute my 2 cents to the conversation and give my support to people trying to exit. For all the reasons that Hamzen so clearly laid out. I don't hate Rawat either. I can't even imagine him at all as a real person, actually, because the person I was relating to was a massive projection (invited by him and accepted by me). Pat C. sent me a pic of him recently (haven't seen him for at least 15 years) and I stared at it, trying to figure out who that was. Didn't recognize him at all. It's just about the behavioral pattern that whoever he is is manifesting, that has the potential to ensnare and wound people - sincere, innocent people. I actually believe - know, in fact - on a sort of 'meta-level' that there are no victims. On that level I take rsponsibility for my own creations, too. And simultaneously I find that there are multiple levels of reality, with different structures of responsibility, and they all need to be addressed. This stuff is hard to talk about, but perhaps this will make sense to someone. It is important to BOTH hold Rawat responsible for his sociopathic behavior, including protecting and even rescuing people from it, if possible, AND be aware of the parts in ourselves and others that have attracted and colluded in the whole drama. If you only do one side of this - i.e. say we are all responsible for our choices - then you deny the human reality of the experience that many of us have had. For example, many of us have experienced sincerely trusting someone who was seemingly emanating vibes of sincerity. When we woke up, we experienced betrayal. Maybe there's a lesson about discernment in there. But there is also a lesson about assertion, being able to say NO, that's NOT okay. On the other hand, if we only assert, yell, blame etc. then we are caught in MJ's loop and quite vulnerable to being dubbed a bunch of blamey whiners. For me the path meanders between these levels. I take responsibility for what I brought in to MJ's world which made me supremely fresh meat for him, and the beliefs and tendencies which kept me there when I was suffering. I also hold MJ responsible for the way he has used his power that has hurt people. I actually believe he will have to face this at some point in his own spiritual path (or whatever you want to call it). I'm not calling him to accountability so much on these deep levels because I think the Golden Rule will take care of all that. I'm not his teacher any more than he's mine. I mean hold him responsible on more of a practical level, like full disclosure and honesty now, for example (of all the stuff mentioned in Hamzen's posts, for example). Keep up the good stuff, Hamzen and all. love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:36:16 (EDT) From: PatD Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Rawat as a real person Message:

Good post Disculta :trying to understand Rawat was the thing that brought me to EPO in the 1st place . As a residual premie (last year)the possibility of finding out more about the man in whom I had invested so much of my life was irresistible , even though I was prepared for a lot of it to be 'hate filled bullshit'. To my surprise & increasing horror I couldn't dismiss the damning personal accounts of people who had known him personally & who had been much more closely involved in the cult than I had been . Now I think I do know 'who he is' & it ain't pretty . He was a child groomed for stardom by his mother & doted on by Jagdeo & Sampuranand , criminals both , spoiled rotten & taken up by a bunch of acid/brain dead westerners (us) who encouraged him in his delusions & corruption . Or at least some of us did. Lots of others of us didn't have a clue but just believed his spiel because we didn't know anything about yoga & 'something happens' when you do the teks. What is he now ? An entertainer who won't do a show if the money is no good . If he had the balls to say 'I'm packing it in now ,thanks for the ride , fuck you all it's only LILA ', then I might have a sneaking sympathy for the guy. On reflection though , maybe not.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 00:25:00 (EDT) From: Brian S Email: None To: PatD Subject: Great summary , Pat D Message:

You just said everything that I wanted to say with a lot less words. I am cleaning out the cobwebs in my head and you handed me the right broom to do the job on them with that dose of clarity. Thanks again Pat D.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:56:24 (EDT) From: Francesca ~) Email: None To: PatD Subject: Pat D, GREAT post [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:38:38 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: PatD Subject: Re: Rawat as a real person Message:

hear hear!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That sums it up very nicely I would say.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:47:29 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: David Andersen on 'catalyst' Message:

Here's a repost of Andersen's satsang on 'Catalyst' from his cult apologist site, PleaseConsiderThis.com. The format is exactly what I left behind twenty years ago. A little folksy premable to show what a relatable and regular guy he is, turn on the fog machine: Catalyst It's a funny word. Cat-a-lyst. Say it ten times out loud and it gets real funny. Sorry, Dave, but it isn't and it doesn't. I can just see you sitting in front of a group of people and trying to force a little humour like this. How embarrassing! Mind you, we all did it. It's just that you CONTINUE to do it. Oh well.... Events, people, objects, thoughts: they are all catalysts, acting on humans to produce feelings. Everyone I know has a short list of what I call 'reliable catalysts to feel joy'. These are things that we produce, place ourselves in the 'line of,' or make happen. We know they will fairly reliably result in an internal experience of joy. Oh my god, better get out the lab coats and clipboards. This is getting really interesting -- not! Really, how banal. And what's with this 'internal experience of joy'? Is that different than, say REGULAR joy? Anyway, you have to laugh at the premie (in other words, Maharaji-clone) way of trying to sound like you've got a real handle on something by making these broad -- ultimately useless, sweeping -- surveys of the human condition. Some of my favorites: The discrete personal-disclosure-and-braggadoccio section: A steaming cup of world-class coffee, properly brewed. read: I'm a man of quality. Now what I like and how to enjoy it. A new age yuppie indeed! Playing music with gifted artists who listen and are generous, in front of a receptive audience. read: I, too, am a gifted artist. If you play with me, be cool, eh? If you listen to me, be cool too. Thanks. The Lakers, playing at their best. read: I am not Jack Nicholson but I'm a bit LIKE Jack Nicholson. I'm cool, for one thing. A bunch of men who know and love each other, joking around for an hour or so. I'm no sissy. I might fawn over my fat runt of a guru but I am, in the end, a man's man, so much so that I can talk about how much love I have for my posse. These ah' ma' peepow. Watching my children do something they passionately love. read: Quality kids for a quality dad. That passionate love thing? Yeah, that's right. Who you think they got it from? Their mother?? The graceful curvature of women. read: I am, after all, a man. Let's not forget that, huh? Certain Impressionist paintings. read: I'm not an egghead or anything, just a man of quality. Know what I mean? A good cigar at the right time. read: A Clinton supporter 'The Simpsons' TV show. faultless Tuning and preparing a fabulous piano. I surround myself with quality. I'm an arbitrer of quality. Plus, I can play. Not bad, eh? Writing a good song. If I don't say so myself. Big Sur. Boring. ..... Babies who, looking deep into my eyes, laugh. Oh my God! I just remembered some of the weird things premies believe about babies. How they're where we need to get back to and all that shit ..... Talk about Third Rock from the Sun Parties with really good, bedrock, long-time friends. Yes, and I have SOOOOOO many of those because, what'd I tell you? I'm a Quality Guy! Laughing so hard, for so long, my stomach hurts. WITH a great sense of humour, buy the way. Can you imagine this guy writing a personal ad? There is one thing, however, which is more powerful, more reliable, and much simpler than my 'reliable catalysts' one thing that is the greatest gift I've ever been given. This is the part where the smile drops, the schmaltzy music begins and Andersen turns to face a closer camera. How many of these satsangs did we endure? How many times did we do this weird dance ourselves? It offers me true independence makes it so that I don't need to depend on lining stuff up on the outside to feel what I want to feel. Yeah, Dave, you gotta stop lining up all those little babies and fabulous pianos, dude. It's Independence time! Because the joy exists inside of me. The coffee, music, baby, or landscape don't beam the joy into me they catalyze a feeling that's already there, hidden. Waiting. Ooooooh, this is getting too scientific for me! The gift that Maharaji gave me, techniques to access what he calls Knowledge, are that greatest gift. When I practice the techniques in a sincere and committed way, they allow me to access the feeling I've longed for and worked hard to catalyze ever since I was born. Without having to depend on my 'reliable catalysts' for joy, I can experience their beauty with so much fun, so much gratitude. They become more precious to me because I know they could change at any time, and I know that if they do change, I can still be naturally and deeply connected to the source of joy inside. So let me see, how about a REALLY good cigar? How about a REALLY nice set of curves? Are you saying that all you gotta do is hook up to that joy INSIDE -- not the other one -- and these things are gonna be even better? Alright! For 28 years Maharaji has been relentless in reminding me that I have the potential to be my own man, to see my own beauty, to act and choose from the most honest, best-feeling place. He is, for me, the greatest catalyst; he has effected greater change and growth in me than any other person. He has treated me with unusual care and respect. He has demonstrated his love and concern for me in a practical way many, many times. I have made a tremendous number of mistakes in dealing with him and his work; he has never given me any reason to think he has taken it personally, or that his respect and concern for me has diminished. I believe he knows that I love him and am sincere, and he accepts that. This consistency of love, respect, and acceptance is unique in my life. Quit throwing up that cotton candy, Dave. It's gross..... No, really, what's this got to do with anything? I came here especially to learn all about 'catalysts'. What happened? Started out great. You got right into the word, catalyst. This was really promising. But then all you did was flop into all that 'Maharaji blah blah blah .... gratitude' shit. I want to learn about catalysts! His gift, Knowledge, is also unique in my life because it is a direct pipeline to the feeling, the experience, that I use my 'reliable catalysts' to produce. This, to me, is freedom, or the possibility of it. To enjoy and look forward to the pleasures of life without having to count on them for my joy is liberating and a source of immense comfort, because one thing has been made clear to me in 52 years of life on this planet: everything changes, and it behooves me to find the source of joy inside me. Well you did use the word 'behoove' so I take back what I said about you being a bit stupid. No dummy's ever gonna use a word like that. Sheesh, I don't know WHAT to think now. Hm ... I guess your sincere message of love really moved me or something. Hey, like a cataylst. Like a real-live catalyst in my own life. I get it!

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:24:36 (EDT) From: bill-fer allahs sake, Email: None To: Jim Subject: what 'beauty of the techniques'? Message:

None of these guys will admit that they dont see a thing inside. They dont hear a thing worth a squat. They definately dont taste anything, and I feel the breath more than him and it does no such shit he claims.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:58:33 (EDT) From: Susannah Email: None To: bill-fer allahs sake, Subject: Re: what 'beauty of the techniques'? Message:

You said it! I can tell you one thing, I see the 'light' every time I step into the shower. I also see it after coming inside on a sunny day. Have no clue about the celestial music. Man, if that is angelic music (sound of blood rushing through the temporal arteries), heaven will be pretty boring! And the nectar? Never anything tastier than post-nasal drip.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:24:48 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Like some bad 50's ad Message:

Are there any premies out there with really good taste, going for it, who are past that cool 70's newage/rock&roll posing? I would love to have that concept blown but I doubt it. Some mates dragged me out sat night after a very heavy month, not just the wtc, haven't felt like socializing, all words seemed pointless. So it's a chill-out, and I'm quite happy just soaking it up, then the drum & bass hit the decks. What a release, SOOO needed. So I'm thinking would there be any ex-premies who could even get warm to the truth of this stuff, the only music I know that can take you through the centre of real anger/pain & passion, and come through the other side somewhere really expressive and not be denying all the bollocks of this world, ie the whole, dark AND light. All I could come up with was Selene, you, Jethro, Heidi the cunt, and Robyn. And yeah why pick on ex-premies, well I suppose I've found the wordy male abstractions of the last month here difficult, at a time as a lurker when I was hoping for more. But then I thought, what about premies, and laughed out loud, a rip roaring one, and really let rip on the dance floor with a passion. Can you imagine a premie into drum&bass, what a joke. Ten minutes and they'd be calling it hate music, twenty and they'd be out of the building. Trance maybe, goa trance hippyshit, the odd one (like catweasel) who thinks he's cool, chill-out, a few more, but drum&bass, forget it. Remembered me 15 years ago, when my tick list was almost identical to David Andersons, old before my time, yessirree. And then the last thought in this mental thread was that, it might be too much for most exes, but some of 'em could ride with it a bit a least, Jerry, Gerry, even ~Scott came to mind, etc etc, you get my drift. So much social wisdom that's around now, missed because they think everyones still stuck in the 70's like they are. Sorry for the ramble but looks like I'm going into blogger mode at the mo.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:01:51 (EDT) From: Francesca ~) Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Dear Ham -- drum & bass (OT) Message:

Hamzen, Don't listen to a lot of it, but it is great to dance to. A friend of mine is a musician, and went from ambient to jungle and drum & bass a few years ago. He got a kick out of watching me get lost in the groove several years ago before his own band played. I'm his mother's age, you understand, in a tied dyed shirt and overalls. So who do you like in that vein? I know for the oldies (dinosaur music) you mentioned Nick Drake -- now he is one of my faves, as well as Richard Thompson. Also love Tim Buckley. For a while my husband and I were only listening to 'dead guys' (not RT, obviously). --F

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:37:55 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: hamzen@hotmail.com To: Francesca ~) Subject: Great music taste Francesca Message:

Definitely add your name to the list then. Back in the day loved Fairport Convention, wasn't so keen on Thompsons solo stuff, Tim Buckley I still play occasionally, have always felt him in the skin. But my mostest were Soft Machine, the Greatful Dead, Quicksilver, & Country Joe, Joni Mitchell, Neil Young and late 60's Miles Davis throw in some Steve Miller and Hendrix too. Keith Jarret, Pat Metheny and free jazz through my premie years, LOVED Albert Mangelsdorff and a lot of the european free jazz set, Archie Shepp, Albert Ayler, late Coltrane, but especially Ornette Coleman, and at the opposite end, Jimmy Giuffre and Paul Bley. But the last ten years, well how many hours you got. I've been into drum&bass since it was hardcore in '93, loved as in LOVED, LTJ Bukem & Goldie & Photek 94-96, I still think that was some of the deepest music ever made, nowadays more into the Optical/Ram label (they're just a couple of miles from me) tech step dark stuff, says more about the times if you know what I mean.... There's also some really interesting garage/drum&bass fusion going on over here inspired by djzinc and the true playaz crowd, serious booty big arse wobble music, but quite fluid too On a slower tip, LOVE Leftfield, Circulation label house stuff, slower breakbeats fucked up stuff, and a bit of garage. David Gray is the first non house/beatz related stuff coming out that's given me any real pleasure for years, a bit of Radiohead, a couple of the tracks on the David Gray album sound like Nick Drake tracks gently remixed, very moving. You fancy doing some tape swaps, if you do my e-mails here for ya

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:33:22 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: David Andersen on 'catalyst' Message:

'''For 28 years Maharaji has been relentless in reminding me that I have the potential to be my own man, to see my own beauty, to act and choose from the most honest, best-feeling place. He is, for me, the greatest catalyst; he has effected greater change and growth in me than any other person. He has treated me with unusual care and respect. He has demonstrated his love and concern for me in a practical way many, many times. I have made a tremendous number of mistakes in dealing with him and his work; he has never given me any reason to think he has taken it personally, or that his respect and concern for me has diminished. I believe he knows that I love him and am sincere, and he accepts that. This consistency of love, respect, and acceptance is unique in my life.''' I am so sick of hearing premies say that Maharaji truly loves them, or that the only one who truly loves them is Maharaji. Grow up, people. The only one, and I mean ONLY one rawat loves is himself. Grasp that reality, look honestly at your lives and at last start living them. Stop hanging about waiting for rawat to tell you that you can breath. Hey, guess what? You could breathe long before he came along and you will be able to breathe long after he goes. He doesn't care as long as he is comfy and has people fawning over him. That is it, folks. That is as real as he gets. Too bad there's not more to it than that, but there isn't. Think about 'giving darshan'. Is that the action of someone who truly loves you? Do they ask, or even let, you get on your knees to them to kiss their feet? No, of course not. That is not what love is. Love is an equal thing. Darshan is abject adoration, and as such, more than a little sick. There is no love or respect involved in having people pranam to you and kiss your feet. It's an ego trip for the recipient of the action, nothing else. Maybe a pseudo-high for the devotee if he or she is completetely under the power and control of the cult leader, but there is nothing real there. It is impossible because it is an utterly unequal relationship. I would beg all premies to try and regain their own lives, and again, charge rawat with soul murder and get him away from innocent people.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 18:03:39 (EDT) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: Timmi Subject: **BESt OF FORUM** [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:31:54 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Timmi Subject: YES! Thanks Timmi. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:20:43 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: JohnT Subject: did goober massage dave with oil? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:04:36 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: All Subject: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc Message:

Dear All, it has been several months now since Rawat met my father. Since then Elan Vital flew me to Brisbane for a really awful meeting with Dr Valerio Pascotto before Amaroo began. (I wasn't allowed to go because I 'don't love Him'). Dr Pascotto admitted to being involved in an investigation into Jagdeo along with Marcia Lietner. Apparently a report was made and submitted to Rawat. He had no answers for why nothing was ever done. I was eventually contacted my a Texan lawyer called Frank Sommerville who claimed that he had been hired by Elan Vital to pursuade me to sign a 'release' document on the grounds that it would help me heal. We had a number of conversations of which I have extensive notes. At one point Ford Greene tried to talk to them. He was involved in a very nasty hit and run two days after he spoke to Sommerville and was in intensive care for over a week. After Ford was out of the picture, Frank Sommerville offered me a very short amount of therapy on the condition that I remain silent about the cult and that they are given the power to terminate the therapy whenever they want to. That was the full extent of their offer. Several weeks therapy. My therapist is so disgusted by the way that they are treating me that he refuses to bill me. My friends, my therapist and my doctor, and those members of my family who have not been manipulated by the cult, are disgusted by Elan Vital. I really feel that I have been re-abused. Since Elan Vital and Rawat approached my father I have developed a chronic lung disease and my eye sight, already fragile, has become worse. The stress they have put me through has been horrific and I will not forget it. Not will I forgive them. So what can I ever do about this? I can write. I will write a new page for the Jagdeo section of epo. I will provide details and names of the people who have been involved in this. I will go outside the internet and write about it elsewhere. I have someone who can help me with this. Maybe it took me so long to realise what they were doing to me because part of me was so loyal to my father and perhaps because part of me still hoped that those premies and that Guru were pure, real, caring, honest, loving. I suppose there was some residual belief in me, a hope perhaps that Guru Maharaj Ji really did mean what he said to my father when he met him. So it took me a while, and at great cost, to recognise that my father was being manipulated and that so was I, and that the organisation that was doing this and the man behind it are heartless. Now it is all horribly clear. And I feel polluted for ever letting them seduce me into being silent about what they were doing. They used my father against me so effectively. Dr Pascotto knows his stuff. This cult sickens me. I feel as though I've finally woken up from months of a very nasty nightmare. Abi

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 06:59:07 (EDT) From: EiYDh Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc Message:

Maharaji has deserted you, just as he will desert everything and everyone, when the shit hits the fan. What a chickenshit coward he is.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:14:39 (EDT) From: hamzen Email: hamzen@hotmail.com To: Abi Subject: What a bunch of scumbags & lowlifes they are Message:

They really are starting to show themselves to be despicable. I found your story heartbreaking, I'm really glad you are getting some support. Your therapist sounds like a gem. Definitely you've got to put yourself first, which you are obviously starting to do. Again, another e-mail address if you need someone to contact.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 01:00:34 (EDT) From: Barbara Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Darkness Masquerading as Light Message:

Frank Sommerville is a tax lawyer who represents churches in IRS audits and disputes. What does he know about signing releases in order to heal. What an egregious insult to Abi, and what a sorry excuse he must be as a lawyer and a human being. Sommerville et al. give scumbags a bad name. Abi, I can only imagine how stressful this is to you. I am very sorry that the likes of sub-humans such as the EV minions, Valerio Pascotto, and Frank Sommerville dare to approach you with offers of 'healing.' I didn't think my respect for them could sink any lower, but it has. Talk about darkness masquerading as light. Take care. B PS: Valerio Pascotto already has had a complaint filed against him as a therapist so, if you decide to file a complaint, it will be taken seriously, since he already has a mark against him with the State Board. He is an accomplice in a cover-up of child abuse, something the State Board will not look kindly upon. [ Frank Sommerville ]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:15:49 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc Message:

When I wrote to EV Sommerville ended up writing me back too. He said they did not need my help in DUO's lawsuit against Jagdeo in Australia. I didn't have the energy to respond....what to say to someone the cult has hired to protect it and what to say so a person who betrayed Abi's trust with that ugly thing they called a press release. Sommerville does make for an interesting websearch though...it seems he specializes in protecting religous organizations from lawsuits by the victims of pedophiles who use the religion to find their victims. Abi, I am behind you. Stay strong.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 22:01:46 (EDT) From: Gina Email: None To: Susan Subject: Sommerville - Glasserly - Leitner - Jacobs Message:

Does anyone know if Frank Summerville is in as deep as the following Elan Vital Church Associates: Charles Glasserly Marcia Leitner Robert Jacobs Thanks, Gina

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:02:18 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc Message:

Abi, Thanks so much for sharing that. Sommerville sounds like a piece of work. Please take care of yourself and I hope you feel better. You can at least be assured that you know the truth now, about what these people are up to. Free of those illusions, you'll be much better able to defend yourself. And it isn't your fault. You didn't do anything wrong. You are the one who was the victim and for you to be blamed and treated that way is criminal. Valerio Pascotto using your father to protect his cult leader is also reprehensible. I think you are right that exposing all this; making it as public as possible, is the very best thing you can do to protect yourself and others. Thanks again, Joe

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:19:52 (EDT) From: magiclara Email: None To: Abi Subject: Love and support from me tooo Abi (NT) Message:

t

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:10:52 (EDT) From: AJW Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc Message:

Hi Abi, I remember the first correspondance I had with Glen, after your dad had told me about Jagdeo's abuse. The suggestion was that Jadgeo, was so pure and holy, he could never do such a thing. Maybe he'd been telling some children a story, and his hand had rested on a child's knee and been misinterpreted. Around this time, a friend, also a longtime committed premie, went for drink with me and confronted me about my 'allegations' which were 'unfounded' and without substance. I ended up yelling at him, 'What if it had been your daughter who had been abused?' Every stage, and at every point of crisis, in this sorry matter the cult have behaved in a cowardly, evasive, uncaring and pathetic way. They have only changed their position under the utmost pressure. And when they have done this, it has been to protect themselves and Captain Rawat. The first 'official' letter I received from Glen pointed out that if I suggested Rawat knew in any way what was going on, then they would consult their lawyers. One of my concerns is how many other victims there are out there Abi. The cult seem to have done nothing to contact them, or their parents to begin to sort out the mess Jagdeo has caused. I've heard about other possible cases of abuse since I became involved. (You know about these.) I think the way they have dealt with Jagdeo has done more damage to Rawat and his cult than any other incident. It shows them up for what they really are- mindless, toe kissing, heartless, dolts. I'll email you Abi. Anth the infidel.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:06:14 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Abi Subject: take care of yourself Message:

lung ailment - oy vey. In that case, hope you live in a house with an air filter/vac built into the heating system, and are close enough to the ocean to visit regularly and breathe in the air. whenever possible, slow, deep abdominal breathing exercises are good, too. Peace and lentils, PS my eyesight has been deteriorating, too, which is disconcerting and awkward for me sometimes.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:14:28 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Dear Abi Message:

Yes, dear Abi, take care of yourself. It is frustrating to see you going through this, on the other side of the world. It sounds as though you are in the middle of two powerful forces, one of which is saying that you should let go of this for your health and wellbeing (and which is being echoed outside by the pernicious cult assholes); and the other voice is saying fight it for your health and wellbeing. And maybe you feel you are falling in the middle, not quite achieving the peace and wellbeing that might come from going all the way in either direction. I wonder if you can therefore find a way to do both, and be at peace about the limitations. On the one hand, take steps that feel right to bring this whole thing to a place of justice. Allot a certain amount of time and energy to doing this, and no more. On the other hand, when you are not doing that, totally let go and rest and heal yourself. And ne'er the twain shall meet, so to speak. I have had to do a similar 'both/and' process in my own life, and I am also dealing with chronic illness. Hope this is not invasive advice. Meant with all love and support, love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:06:18 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Yeah such me too Message:

My eyes have been the pitts for several years and getting worse as I age. Best wishes to you, Francesca

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:41:15 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: timmi56@yahoo.com To: Abi Subject: Re: Jagdeo, Frank Sommerville, etc Message:

Abi, I send you my love, support and deepest respect for what you have been through and what you are still having to go through. If I can ever help or listen, please feel free to e-mail me. Timmi

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:54:43 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Abi Subject: I am so sorry to heard about this Message:

Dear Abi, And I am so sorry to hear about Ford Greene, and that EV took advantage of such a tragic accident. Is Ford OK? Is he still able to help you? I am so glad that you feel as if you have woken up. That is such a good thing to feel, although, of course, the ruins you see around you are not pretty. As ugly as it can be, I always feel it is better to live with my eyes open -- although I've been told to shut up more than once in my life! Love and best wishes, Francesca

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:36:34 (EDT) From: Gina Email: None To: Abi Subject: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. Message:

Abi, As I read your post I was shocked but not surprised. Valerio Pascotto is breaking all the rules of his profession and I strongly suggest you report him as he definitely needs to have his counseling license revoked. He is manipulating you and your family out of .... who knows? Greed for Maharaji.... Maybe he and Marolyn got a thing going at Pepperdine..... really who knows? You should also keep in mind that his brother Alvaro Pascotto is in charge of the Rawat children's company. Please be careful. These are devious and deceptive men. And please consider my advice to report Valerio Pascotto to the appropriate licensing boards. As far as the attorneys, I don't know what can be done. Seek legal counsel. Finally Abi, when a parent has a child that was raped and that parent knows the Organization/Church ergo Pastor Rawat and wife Marolyn nee Johnson Rawat.... who have turned a blind eye ... the natural reaction of a 'normal' (unbrainwashed parent) IS a tremendous drive to tear apart the perpetrator and his sponsors in this case: Mahatma Jagdeo Prem Pal Singh Rawat Marolyn nee Johnson Rawa Premlata Rawat Hansi Rawat Amar Rawat Dayalata Rawat I don't know your father but something is very, very wrong here. It might be time to cut off communication with him as he obviously does not care too much about the harm done to you .... or the danger he placed you in as a child and now as an adult. Take care. Gina

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:10:55 (EDT) From: Suzanne Email: None To: Gina Subject: What license does Valerio Pascotto have? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:26:02 (EDT) From: The Fencepost Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: Valerio Pascotto's licenses Message:

nt --- Marriage and Family Therapist license with the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, and a Psychology License with the California Board of Psychology. Both are current. http://www.bbs.ca.gov for the Board of Behavioral Sciences. Gina has posted the psychology board's URL below. ==The Fencepost

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:59:10 (EDT) From: Abi Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. Message:

lock the doors on this place. 'Recent Exes' private club has siphoned off a lot of traffic and now this new, possibly soon to be password protected private club opens up. Of course Recent Exes is an exclusive cosy little club where only special, vetted people are allowed in, and here we have to wade through acres of OT political junk. I'm starting to resent hosting a war council for egghead war mongers. I thought I was host an Ex-Premie site. Now that traffic has other places to go and I don't blame them. I'd go myself except I could never get in... --- I'm sure it doesn't help that this forum reeks of anti-semitism. Not that I expect you to see that, Gerry. You've certainly contributed in making that way. --- Joey, Perhaps I am anti-semitic. I'll have to think about that. Thanks for pointing that out. What I really want to be is pro-people and I'm probably failing miserably at that, too.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 19:30:03 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: gerry Subject: Where's Abi's Post? Message:

I clicked on Abi's post and got this spat between Gerry and Jerry. Looks like a forum corruption. John.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 21:57:24 (EDT) From: Gina Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Where's Abi's Post? Message:

JHB, I read it earlier today but it seems to have disappeared. Abi, care to repost? Gina

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:33:48 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: gerry Subject: Have a good think, gerry Message:

Perhaps I am anti-semitic. I'll have to think about that. Thanks for pointing that out. What I really want to be is pro-people and I'm probably failing miserably at that, too. Personally gerry, I think anti-semitism is a strange way to express a 'pro-people' approach to things...unless of course, in your own mind, Jews really aren't people? Whatever gerry. Keep your chin up, and all the best! :)

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:58:06 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Joey Subject: Thanks for that Joey Message:

I'll try to keep my anti-semitism to bare minimum. I have to say though, if you persist in this weird notion that I am somehow anti-semitic your ass will be blocked from here. I think a much more productive route for you to take would be perhaps to contribute some more material on Amtext. Your choice.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 23:35:50 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: gerry Subject: I thank YOU, gerry Message:

I'll try to keep my anti-semitism to bare minimum. I have to say though, if you persist in this weird notion that I am somehow anti-semitic your ass will be blocked from here. Well that makes it clear that there really isn't much point in persisting in this exchange, not that I had much of a desire to do so, but then there's this: I think a much more productive route for you to take would be perhaps to contribute some more material on Amtext. Your choice. Gerry, I'm not about to be so obnoxiously patronized by some fuckbrain anti-semite. So go ahead, block me if you want... and stew in it! :)

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:23:57 (EDT) From: jOHNt Email: None To: Joey Subject: wHAt the F**%& Message:

Could you not give URLs or references to instances of racism committed by posters here? Name calling merely lowers the tone and damages credibility.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 08:38:58 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: jOHNt Subject: Re: wHAt the F**%& Message:

what this all a boot?

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 09:05:41 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: salam Subject: To Salam and JohnT Message:

I have no idea what Joey is on about. I like Joey, he's very intelligent and he made some great contributions awhile back. But now he seems to revel in unsubstantiated accusations of racism, that certain people are 'EV plants' that sort of thing. He'll sort it out for himself, I'm sure. I really don't want this to become any big deal or any sort of deal at all. I'm not taking the bait, but focusing on love and cultivating peacefulness for my own benefit.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:29:41 (EDT) From: Gina Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. Message:

Abi, It seems that Valerio Pascotto is influencing your father for the protection of Prem Pal Singh Rawat. Following is the Web Address of the California Board of Psychologists. I feel strongly that you have a valid complaint against Valerio Pascotto. Hang in there. Gina http://www.psychboard.ca.gov/enforce/complaints.html Filing a Complaint with the Board of Psychology This document: explains how to file a complaint against a psychologist, psychological assistant, or registered psychologist, describes the review and investigation process, and lists the types of actions the Board may take in response to a complaint. Who May File a Complaint? Anyone who thinks that a psychologist, psychological assistant or registered psychologist has acted illegally, irresponsibly, or unprofessionally may file a complaint with the Board of Psychology. In this document the person who files a complaint is referred to as the 'complainant,' and the person against whom the complaint is filed is the 'licensee/registrant.' Note: Everyone has the right to file a complaint without fear of harassment. If you feel you are being harassed by the licensee/registrant you've complained about, you should notify the Board immediately. What Types of Complaints Does the Board Handle? Complaints under the Psychology Board's jurisdiction include the following behavior by a psychologist, psychological assistant or registered psychologist: sexual contact with a patient violating the patient's confidentiality providing services for which the individual has not been trained or licensed drug abuse fraud or other crimes false advertising paying or accepting payment for patient referral unprofessional, unethical, or negligent acts focusing therapy on the licensee's/registrant's own problems, rather than the patient's serving in multiple roles, i.e., having social relationships with patients, lending them money, employing them, etc

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:33:09 (EDT) From: PS to Abi Email: None To: Gina Subject: Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. Message:

Abi, In light of the harrassment/intimidation you are receiving from Valerio Pascotto, Marcia Leitner, and the Texas Attorney I'd carefully note the following sentence from above: Note: Everyone has the right to file a complaint without fear of harassment. If you feel you are being harassed by the licensee/registrant you've complained about, you should notify the Board immediately. Also, who is Marcia Leitner and I'll find out the proper authorities to file a complaint with concerning her role in this intimidation of you. Gina

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:28:19 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: PS to Abi Subject: Marcia Leitner is a lawyer Message:

She lives in the SF bay Area.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:34:41 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: PS to Abi Message:

Abi, it's time to put an end to this, time to get tough and start calling the shots. I don't know how to help since you are so far away. All I know is that, if I were you, I would surround myself with ONLY good allies who encourage you to fight and stand up and not be victimised. You do not need any weasels manipulating you right now. I wish I could send you some moral support and give you some fighting Irish spirit.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:39:12 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: timmi56@yahoo.com To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: PS to Abi Message:

I agree with Pat, and am here to help you however I can, Abi. Just let me know.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:28:01 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Re: PS to Abi Message:

Likewise, Abi, - if there's any way I can be of help ... writing letters, whatever ... please - let me know. Just remember - there's a lot of us out here who don't want to see you suffer any more. Be strong when you feel strong. And when you don't - let others help. Yes? Chris

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:17:55 (EDT) From: Selene Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: Valerio Pascotto need his license revoked. Message:

Abi I'm so sorry. It's always a harsh wake up call to find out those you trust are not there for you. Especially family. In this case you have it right on, it's cult manipulation. I too am still surprised when I hear about the premies not being what they were in my eyes years ago. Even as cynical as I have gotten about M and premies, it still surprises me, so I can understand somewhat. I'm sorry about your health , about all of this. But it's good to hear from you and see you are taking steps to help yourself. Lots of love to you.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 04:52:17 (EDT) From: don Email: None To: All Subject: reply to bill Message:

very good posts, bill ! many 'jews' don't realize that zionism is in fact diametrically opposed to judahism since the very core of that religion is the belief that ONLY the messiah can reunite the israeli tribes..zionism is manmade...and the results can clearly be seen....

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:08:40 (EDT) From: Jorge Email: None To: don Subject: Ugh! Message:

Zionism is secular. No doubt about it. We should be glad that it is. Would you prefer a Israeli goverment that was the jewish version of the Taliban? I certainly wouldn't. Those articles just sounded like anti-israeli propaganda to me. Yes, there is a tiny ultra orthodox community that supports the destruction of Israel because of their messianic interpretations. Should Israel be destroyed because of this? Does this make Israel not jewish? Come on guys! This viewpoint is not even held by the majority of orthodox jews, just a few isolated fundamentalist fruitcakes. You seriously think they're right? I wish this forum would go back to discussing M intead of anti-semitic/anti Israeli propaganda junk. Yep, it's just junk.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 04:44:01 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: Maharaji or Allah: m's new 'enemy' Message:

I guess we exes don't have to bother much anymore about Rawatists' retaliations anymore ...

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 04:03:08 (EDT) From: toby Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: to jm kahn Message:

just found out that sir david's account on bravenet was deleted.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:56:41 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Maharaji or Allah: m's new 'enemy' Message:

time you update the links here http://www.multimania.com/jmkahn/ or do you have a double?

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:08:29 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: All Subject: Any fence-sitters lurking around? Message:

It occurred to me that with the recent current events, and MJ's patently pathetic response to them, there might be more fence-sitters lurking around here than usual, and not much in the way of ex-sang for them to dig their teeth into. I was a premie for a long time, a long time ago. I know that when I was a premie, I did my best to avoid awareness of any other remotely inspiring teachers or teachings who were out there because it went against the 'one perfect master' theory. But things are very different now. There is so much more information and there is the internet. And if you are a current or wavering premie, you probably have heard lots and lots of quite inspiring stuff spoken by all kinds of different people since the 911 disaster. I know if I were a premie now, I would have a hard time finding any relevance to my master at this time, with his generic prayer and no really helpful offering at a time when someone with a teacher might want to turn to their teacher for help. I realize, from the few premies I still know, that for most people, MJ occupies more of a sentimental place than a really awe-inspired place in your hearts these days. It's hard to completely let go and move on, so it's easier to relegate him to a fairly insignificant place in your life - a bit like church on Sunday, something we used to laugh at in the passionate, early days of his arrival in the west. If you have relegated him to a symbolic, distant father-figure place in your life, you may not see much reason to go all the way and remove him completely. Many of you have added other more up-to-date influences to your repertoire (viz. David Andersen's amazing use of Byron Katie's teachings to lecture exes below) but you still want to keep MJ there. Why? Is it because it is one place in your lives where you have memories of feeling special, or where you hold out the hope of being unconditionally loved, of going all the way. Is it the place that reassures you that you are on some kind of a 'path,' so that you feel that the 'growth' part of your life is handled? Are you afraid of facing some kind of breakdown or emptiness if you really turn around and surgically extract the huge web of beliefs and - let's face it - subtle fears, that MJ has woven in your being? Yes, I know, I know, you are having 'that experience' that we can't understand, or have forgotten. Well, I still mediate, in a different way, on the flow of my breath, and I can only say that my experience has become much more pleasurable and my feeling of connection to a kind of universal energy has increased since I decided to become an ex-premie, rather than an occasional or lingering premie. It's a bit like that friend of yours who is in a relationship that really needs to end, but he keeps sleeping with the ex-wife because he doesn't want to face up to his loneliness. The thing is, he isn't attracting any new relationships, either. In terms of the experience of leaving a 'master' or whatever he calls himself these days ('you can't come home without the master!' he said that!) I have found that it is better to make a clean break. Then you can really start a new relationship. With your self. With your direct connection to your source through YOUR breath, if that's your choice (remember, despite the absurd rhetoric, it's YOUR breath, and he didn't show it to you, and millions of people worldwide meditate on their breath). And if meditating on your breath isn't your thing, fine. You maybe just enjoy the feeling of 'love' you get at programs. Now this is really like sleeping with an inappropriate ex, because along with that 'feeling' you are being subtly and not-so-subtly programmed by pretty much every word he says. 'You can't come home without the master' indeed! Do you realize what spiritual fascism this is? What blinders MJ is wearing to the vast number of people who are doing fantastically well - better than most premies probably - without 'the master?' And there are dozens of other masters saying the same thing, with very similar followers buying the same line. Do you really think that MJ is the only, or even the most exalted one? Because if he isn't the only one, he is a fake, because in all his words for 20-some years he has implied that he is the only living master right now. If all the others are complete fakes, this is fine. But if they aren't, he would be working WITH them, because they would be meeting at their exalted level and would know each other, wouldn't they? It feels so great to be free of the whole thing. Yes, I know you are deeply trained and programmed by the recent spin-doctoring to believe that we are all just stuck in the past with our objections to MJ, and that things have changed. Have they gotten better? Is there more joy than ever at those meetings you go to? Or is it going downhill? There are so, so many exes who don't post here because MJ doesn't have any relevance at all in their lives. I have to say that this goes for me too, but I enjoy some of this ex-premie internet activity because I have directly seen it helping many, many premies who are trying to leave, especially in the past year. On this forum and another one called Recent Exes (which is password-protected, we have seen a great exodus of people leaving after up ro 30 years in recent months. People who were just keeping MJ on the shelf as their cute little guru rather than face leaving have been brought to the point of seeing the point of actively leaving. I and others have had a lot of correspondence with them, and have watched them becoming freer and freer and happier and happier as they cast off the incredible burden of cult programming which, only months earlier, they swore they didn't have. They are so grateful for life now. They feel as though they have retrieved a part of themselves. If you are a premie, and think it would be safer to just keep MJ going in the background rather than confront your own belief system and perhaps leave, I just want to say that you have no idea how much of your energy is really caught up in that little part that has frozen and refuses to feel your gut doubts. When you go through the process of thinking about leaving, and get into a good dialogue with some people that have left (and you can do this in many ways, not just on this forum, which can be a bit intense at times) you will recover so much energy and free attention that many other things in your life will start working better. Love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 17:37:57 (EDT) From: Peg Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Thanks Disculta, saved it! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:58:58 (EDT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Disculta Subject: sleeping with one's ex Message:

That was a great analogy. Although many of us have never slept with an ex-spouse, most of us have had relationships we knew were not good for us, relationships we knew were bound for the rocks, yet we kept the thing together because it was easier than confronting the truth about ourselves and our realationships. It must be hard indeed to leave after thirty years! I was only in for a few years. The sense of relief and freedom was definitely strong, though. (I smoked cigarettes for a year or two; it wasn't too hard to quit. My wife has smoked for decades; quitting is almost impossible for her.) Anyway, nice post, Disculta. The spiritual potential that opens up after liberation from the cult is boundless; thanks for reminding premies and exes of the post-M possibilities. Love, Gregg

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:29:11 (EDT) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: Gregg Subject: Hello to you Gregg! Message:

Dear Gregg, Haven't seen you post much lately. Glad you're still around -- like to hear your voice! Bests, Francesca

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:03:32 (EDT) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Yes, PatC,** BEST OF FORUM***** Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:51:08 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around? Message:

You are absolutely right, Disculta. I have had premies tell me, though, 'I could not survive without Maharaji.' The tragedy is that they believe this. And this is my major problem with rawat. These people were not born thinking they had to have maharaji to exist. He made them beieve that, because of his own greed and need for power and control. And it for those reasons that I would charge Prem Pal Rawat with the murder of thousands of souls and free spirits. He continues to keep these spirits prisoner for his own selfish needs, while attempting to destroy yet more innocent people willing to listen just a bit too long to a deranged being. He is a disgrace to all true teachers.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:48:42 (EDT) From: karen Email: curteij@southcom.com.au To: Disculta Subject: Re: Any fence-sitters lurking around? Message:

So well put. After 25+ years as a premie, a lot of the time a fringe dweller, but still with the sentimental attachment you speak of, I have been reading these posts and have quietly shed the shock and the embarrassment of realizing it was a cult all along! It is so like, as you say, staying in an inappropriate relationship for all the wrong reasons. It is a strange process but familiar! And I know that the empowerment that comes from refusing to be deluded anymore will be worth way more to my life than hanging on to something that is so obviously whacky. Such insightful, inspiring good posts here. I wonder how many like me read and benefit without contibuting...

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:05:47 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: karen Subject: Welcome, karen Message:

Dear Karen, Disculta's post is the kind that has been missing here lately. So glad to see we're back on track, and welcome! Best wishes, Francesca

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:15:25 (EDT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Francesca :C) Subject: Yes, welcome Karen Message:

We're glad you're here. There are a lot of us here, more than those posting. The 9/11 disaster has needed a lot of attention, but there are many of us exes floating around who have a wealth of experience to share about the strange trip we were in, and the strange process of extracting oneself from it. Pull up a chair and have a cup of tea. love Disculta

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:36:34 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Re: Yes, welcome Karen Message:

I'm looking forward to hearing more from you, Karen.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:27:36 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Disculta Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM*** in ages Message:

Absolutely on the nose, Disculta! I was just thinking of how many thousands of fringe premies, occassional premies and former premies there are in SF and Marin. SF once had the largest proportion of any city in the west. Many still have a pic of M when he was a bouncing chubby teenager with a mala and tilak on their altars next to Buddha or Yoganand or Ramana Maharshi or even Ganesha. If they're happy - fine. I'm here if they have lingering oppression in their lives because of any superstitions attached to M and K. I know I sure had a few to get over. It's not easy to be a former apostle of the former living messiah.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 06:01:55 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: ***BEST OF FORUM*** Message:

very timely. good for guru picture cobweb busting. congrats

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Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 23:20:14 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: All Subject: Human Powered Land Speed Record (OT) Message:

This post has nothing to do with politics, or war, or religion. It's purely 'inspirational.' Sam Whittingham, a Canadian, was the first human to exceed a land speed of 80 mph in a human powered vehicle on level ground with no wind or draft assist. [ World Human Powered Speed Challenge ]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 03:05:46 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Re: Human Powered Land Speed Record (OT) Message:

But which kind of bicycle helmet is the most aerodynamic? ;)

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:07:11 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Helmet Controversy Message:

Pat C: Time trialers use those long tear drop things, but they don't reach speeds even a fraction of the Whittingham bike, which is a completely enclosed 'monocoque' airfoil. Whittingham's 'Varna' is not a 'laminar flow' vehicle however, so chances are Matt Weaver will go faster in the near future in some version of his 'Virtual Edge.' These are not the bikes grandma used to ride. My guess is that since they're completely enclosed (and Weaver's doesn't even have a window) that they don't wear a helmet. I might be wrong, however. --Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 21:27:53 (EDT) From: [Blank] Email: None To: All Subject: To da American Infidels Message:

Please take care. I really feel and understand what you are going through at these times. The next few weeks are uncertain and no one can tell what will happen. I don't care what a belief system a person carry, but when it comes to bringing pain and destruction am against it. Be safe and again take care, god bless Salam

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 00:20:52 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: [Blank] Subject: Re: To da American Infidels Message:

I walked out of a store this evening, on the way to deliver groceries to my ailing mother before visiting my father in the intensive care unit of the hospital, and the vivid colors of the sunset stopped me, right there in the parking lot. Spellbound, awestruck, dumbfounded. All I could think was what kind of idiots the human race is made up of that any one of us could destroy one piece of this beautiful planet or one life.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 02:32:12 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: btdt Subject: Pacific sunsets, Salam and btdt. Message:

You need a better name, btdt. It sounds too much like DDT. ;) The west coast is the youngest part of the US. All these wars and rumors of war just don't seem sane. You wonder why Bin Thingy and Mad-ass Insane etc don't just move to California and sit in jacuzzis watching sunsets and drinking Napa chardonnay. After all they've got the money. Now that's what I call dumb. I know that what took place today was historically inevitable but we don't have much history here and it just all seems like a battle between SF and LA. Also, thanks Salam. It was a very difficult day. It's all that anyone can talk about. 99% of the people in SF are horrified and against this war. Of course I am too but business is business and it's a dog eat dog world. The dog I'm betting on is secular cyber-democracy anyday over atavistic cultic theocracy.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 10:16:19 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Pacific sunsets, Salam and btdt. Message:

Pat: Seriously, 99% against the war? Nationally it's about 90% in favor, 5% neutral, and 5% opposed. That's about as unified as the country has ever been. The numbers go down if you talk about ground troops, but even there 65% are in favor. You have to wonder how SF got into such a groupthink mode. Most of the gay people I know around here, including my coauthor Jonathan Gifford, are rather conservative. --Scott

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 13:53:27 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Here in the Peoples' Republic... Message:

People come to SF to get away from the USA. I was exaggerating of course. The majority of the whites are mostly middle-class, college educated and left of Jesse Jackson or counter-culture, subculture or new agey and totally addcited to PC feelgood euphemistic politics or are simply anti-establishment. Of course the 53% non-white majority are keeping their mouths shut as usual. As are any dissenters. Out here in the Sunset there are still a few working class Irish families and many retired GIs who settled here after a stint in the Pacific arena of WW11. Plenty of flags flying out here.

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Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 20:40:57 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Andersen's essay on 'responsibility' Message:

This is an essay David Andersen posted on his cult-apologist PleaseConsiderThis.com website. I think it's hopelessly inane and superficial and, sad to say, a good marker of why talking with Andersen about Maharaji is impossible. ************************************************** Responsibility Every good therapist, every successful motivational speaker, every philosopher I know about, every shaman or wise one or teacher I've ever heard about, agrees on one thing (probably more, but let's say one for the purposes of this piece). People don't really become mature, healthy, successful human beings until they take responsibility for their own actions and choices. What does that mean in practical terms? They might all say this but it's still meaningless. It's meaninglessness passed aorund and around and around. Why? Because this kind of bamboozling is the stock and trade of people who make a living making others think they're missing something imaginary in life and that they can fix them. Shamans indeed! One thing I've understood recently: you have very little control over most things that happen to you, and no control over what other people say or do. What you do have control over is how you react and respond to words and events. For me this understanding takes blame out of the equation, and blame, in my life, has been a destructive and growth-inhibiting choice. It has frozen me, again and again, in the role of a victim: unable to release the anger I felt at another person, unable to shoulder my own responsibility for choosing to be in the situation, or with the person, I blamed. God, there's so much to unpack there. You can tell that Andersen's forgotten that. He's talking to some imagined readership that's settled into this new age jargon of 'victims' and 'growth', 'control' and 'release'. It's all just silly talk, really. What a waste of a mind, is what I think when I see someone like this. Byron Katie, an amazing woman, mother, and teacher, has developed four elegant, classically simple questions, to be applied to any 'blaming statement' one utters, believes, and holds onto. For example, 'Derek is a cold, controlling, fear-based man.' The questions: Do you know that Derek is this? Do you know it like you know the sun will come up tomorrow, or that the breath is coming in and out of your body? For me the answer is no; it is obvious that, although I have my opinions and intuitions, it's impossible for me to know, really, what's in another person's head or heart. Confronting, but true. What a transparently dumb straw man argument! Whoever said you don't know anything unless you know it beyond question? Beside that remarkable woman and teacher Byron Katie, I mean? God, how embarrasing to just imagine a grown adult like Andersen succumbing to this new-age brow-beating! How does holding on to that belief (that Derek is a cold, controlling, fear-based man) make you feel? It makes me feel like shit, if Derek is important to me --- sad, frustrated, misunderstood, disrespected. Well, what if Derek ISN'T important to you? And what if he is and it just happens to be true, something you have to take into account and deal with? People who fall for this stuff are silly dreamers. All they care about is how they 'feel'. Who cares about anything else? I wonder what David or Byron Katie think about Bin Laden? Do they know him a hundred percent such that they can even HAVE an opinion? And if the opinion's bad, what then? Foolish, isn't it? I there any sane or peaceful reason for continuing to hold on to that belief? No. Yes! And now, the key --- the 'turnaround.' Apply the statement to yourself: 'I am a cold, controlling, fear-based man(woman).' Look inside yourself --- the only place where you can truly know something. Can you find any truth in this statement? My answer would be yes. Now, if the turnaround statement was 'I am a homicidal maniac,' or 'I am a transvestite,' the answer would be a resounding no for most people. But I've discovered that the seed of almost every behavior that hurts me or pisses me off about another person is also present within me and that takes the wind right out of my blaming, judging sails at least it does when I'm honest with myself. This is just SOOOOOOOOO STUPID! Just because the 'seeds' of all sorts of badness are in us all -- as I'm sure they are -- it doesn't mean we all act on them and need to be judged accordingly. I'm embarrassed even talking about this. There are people on the internet blaming Maharaji for a wide range of things, from 'stealing the best years of their lives' to putting up a false spiritual front, to indulging in cigarettes and alcohol while advising others to abstain, to making misleading statements about his so-called divinity. Some of these voices are intensely angry and bitter, and the words used are harsh, demeaning, and insulting. Here is the crux: none of those people were ever forced into involvement with Maharaji or Knowledge; no one was kidnapped, held against their will, or threatened for wanting to leave the practice of Knowledge and/or the perception of Maharaji as their teacher. It didn't happen; the constraints and restraints were within their own minds. In other words, they freely chose to come, and they freely chose to go. The easiest thing to do, when a person is in pain or feeling abandoned, is to blame another for that pain to put the responsibility on someone or something else for making them feel bad. This is what I feel some people have done with Maharaji. Memory is very selective, and words can be twisted and reinterpreted to serve the 'blame game.' Also, the idea of a master who may smoke and drink alcohol, and is comfortable and accomplished in finance and other realms of professional achievement, is deeply confronting to some people's ideas of 'spirituality.' That makes it easier for them to avoid the simple question: has Maharaji, regardless of how he chooses to live his life, or how he has changed his appearance, or how he describes himself, done what he said he would do? Has he lived up to his end of the original bargain, which was to give the gift of Knowledge and remind and inspire people to take advantage of it? David's forgotten the program. I think what he should be saying is that first, because we don't know without any doubt whatsoever what's in Maharaji's head we can't judge him at all. That's what this supposed four-step program teaches, doesn't it? Well, I say that's ridiculous. Second, again following the program, I think we're supposed to ask how it makes us feel having that negative opinion of Maharaji. Well, it sure feels a lot better than it would continuing to be stuck in his cult, doesn't it? No contest there. Third, can we ask ourselves, do we also have the seeds of deceit etc. within us? Answer: of course we do. So what? We're not the ones who amassed a giant fortune on the backs of the people we tricked into thinking we were God, now are we? Memory is a funny thing; it cannot recall the experience of true joy; that can only be felt and fully perceived in the current moment. This is why Knowledge is a living experience, to be renewed daily, hourly. Gratitude to the giver flows naturally from that. Responsibility, to me, is accepting the choices you make (and have made), and taking the lesson from those choices. When I do that, I feel good, and powerful, and humble, and mature. You're living in a new age bubble, Andersen. Maturity is out of the question. Just remember, folks: every head a planet. We all live in our private worlds, worlds unavailable to be experienced by anyone but us. The challenge, as Socrates put it, is to 'know thyself.' Maharaji has given me a simple, timeless, clean way to do this, with no price, expectations, or downside. How much more could I ask for? This is the most pathetic thing Andersen believes and he repeats it at every opportunity. We're all in our own worlds so there's nothing to talk about. That kind of solipsism makes me sad. There you go, an *I* statement.

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Date: Tues, Oct 09, 2001 at 00:01:09 (EDT) From: Who's David kidding? Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Andersen's essay on 'responsibility' Message:

Jim, this is so unbelievable, it makes one wonder what world Mr. Andersen really lives in. The first line about the one sign of a mature person is that he/she takes responsibility for their life! Isn't that what ALL of this stuff is about? If maharaji took ANY responsibility for his irresponsibility, most of the ill will towards him would disappear. WHY is this so difficult for him to do?

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:40:00 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'therapy' like this is dangerous Message:

I looked up this Byron Katie woman Andersen's talking about. What a dangerous fruitcake! What a new-age ostrich! Read the intro to her book and see what I mean. No wonder Andersen finds some value in her. Premies are completely powerless to change Maharaji. Yet they have to continue finding nothing but Appreciation, Gratitude and Clarity in his words and in their hearts when they think about him. That takes a lot of processing. They can't ask him questions, they can't do anything. They're powerless before him. So, ala this sweet, misguided nutbar, Byron Katie, all they can do is rearrange their internal furniture and pretend it's all just the way they wanted it. Here's Katie's ultimate, pathetic manifesto of helplessness: Until we know that death is equal to life, and that it comes in its own sweet way, perfectly, we're going to take on the role of God without the awareness of it, and it's always going to hurt. Whenever you interfere with a process mentally-in the name of life, humanity, anything; in other words, whenever you mentally oppose 'what is'-you're going to experience sadness and apparent separation. There's no sadness without the story. 'What is' is. You are it. You're not saving anyone; you're not killing anyone. The world doesn't depend on you. and here's the intro to her book: INTRODUCTION 1 The more clearly you understand yourself and your emotions, the more you become a lover of what is. Baruch Spinoza The first time I watched The Work, I realized that I was witnessing something truly remarkable. What I saw was a succession of people, young and old, educated and uneducated, who were learning to question their own thoughts, the thoughts that were most painful to them. With the lovingly incisive help of Byron Katie (everyone calls her Katie), these people were finding their way not only toward the resolution of their immediate problems, but also toward a state of mind in which the deepest questions of life are resolved. I have spent a good part of my life studying and translating the classic texts of the great spiritual traditions, and I recognized something very similar in process here. At the core of these traditions — in works such as the Book of Job, the Tao Te Ching, and the Bhagavad Gita — there is an intense questioning about life and death, and a profound, joyful wisdom that emerges as an answer. That wisdom, it seemed to me, was the place Katie was standing in, and the direction where these people were headed. As I watched from my seat in a crowded community center, five men and women, one after another, were learning freedom through the very thoughts that had caused their suffering, thoughts such as “My husband betrayed me” or “My mother doesn’t love me enough.” Simply by asking four questions and listening to the answers they found inside themselves, these people were coming to profound and spacious insights, and were opening their minds to what it may take years of meditation to realize. I saw a man who had been suffering for decades from anger and resentment toward his alcoholic father light up before my eyes within forty-five minutes. I saw a woman who had been almost too frightened to speak, because she just had found out that her cancer was spreading, end the session in a glow of understanding and acceptance. Three out of the five people had never done The Work before, yet the process didn’t seem to be more difficult for them than it was for the other two, nor were their realizations any less profound. They all began by realizing a truth so basic that it is usually invisible: the fact that (in the words of the Greek philosopher Epictetus) “we are disturbed not by what happens to us, but by our thoughts about what happens.” As soon as they grasped that truth, their whole understanding changed. Before people have experienced The Work of Byron Katie for themselves, they often think that it is too simple to be effective. But its simplicity is precisely what makes it so effective. Over the past two years, since first encountering it and meeting Katie, I have done The Work many times, on thoughts I hadn’t even been aware of. And I’ve watched more than a thousand people do it in public events across the United States and Europe (having a reserved seat at all Katie’s events is one of the privileges of being married to her), on the whole gamut of human problems: from major illnesses, the deaths of parents and children, sexual and psychological abuse, addictions, financial insecurity, professional problems, and social issues, to the usual frustrations of daily life. Again and again, I have seen The Work quickly and radically transform the way people think about their problems. And as the thinking changes, the problems disappear. “Suffering is optional,” Katie says. Whenever we experience a stressful feeling — anything from mild discomfort to intense sorrow, rage, or despair — we can be certain that there is a specific thought causing our reaction, whether or not we are conscious of it. The way to end our stress is to investigate the thinking that lies behind it, and anyone can do this by himself with a piece of paper and a pen. The Work’s four questions, which you will see in process later in this introduction, reveal where our thinking isn’t true for us. Through this process — Katie also calls it “inquiry” — we discover that all the concepts and judgments that we believe or take for granted are distortions of things as they really are. When we believe our thoughts instead of what is really true for us, we experience the kinds of emotional distress that we call suffering. Suffering is a natural alarm, warning us that we’re off center, but when we don’t listen, we come to accept this suffering as an inevitable part of life. It’s not. The Work has striking similarities with the Zen koan and the Socratic dialogue. But it doesn’t stem from any tradition, Eastern or Western. It is American, homegrown, mainstream, having originated in the mind of an ordinary woman who had no intention of originating anything. II To realize your true nature, you must wait for the right moment and the right conditions. When the time comes, you are awakened as if from a dream. You understand that what you have found is your own and doesn’t come from anywhere outside. Buddhist Sutra The Work was born on a February morning in 1986 when Byron Kathleen Reid, a forty-three-year-old woman from a small town in the high desert of southern California, woke up on the floor of a halfway house. In the midst of an ordinary American life — two marriages, three children, a successful career — Katie had entered a ten-year-long downward spiral into rage, paranoia, and despair. For two years she was so depressed that she could seldom manage to leave her house; she stayed in bed for weeks at a time, doing business by telephone from her bedroom, unable even to bathe or brush her teeth. Her children would tiptoe past her door to avoid her outbursts of rage. Finally, she checked in to a halfway house for women with eating disorders, the only facility that her insurance company would pay for. The other residents were so frightened of her that she was placed alone in an attic room. One morning, a week or so later, as she lay on the floor (she had been feeling too unworthy to sleep in a bed), Katie woke up without any concepts of who or what she was. “There was no me,” she says. All my rage, all the thoughts that had been troubling me, my whole world, the whole world, was gone. At the same time, laughter welled up from the depths and just poured out. Everything was unrecognizable. It was as if something else had woken up. It opened its eyes. It was looking through Katie’s eyes. And it was so delighted! It was intoxicated with joy. There was nothing separate, nothing unacceptable to it; everything was its very own self. When Katie returned home, her family and friends felt that she was a different person. Her daughter Roxann, who was sixteen at the time, says, When Mom came back, we knew that the constant storm was over. She had always yelled at me and my brothers and criticized us; I used to be scared to be in the same room with her. Now she seemed completely peaceful. She would sit still for hours on the window seat or out in the desert. She was joyful and innocent, like a child, and she seemed to be filled with love. People in trouble started knocking on our door, asking her for help. She’d sit with them and ask them questions — mainly, “Is that true?” When I’d come home miserable, with a problem like “My boyfriend doesn’t love me any more,” Mom would look at me as if she knew that wasn’t possible, and she’d ask me, “Honey, how could that be true?” as if I had just told her that we were living in China. When people understood that the old Katie wasn’t coming back, they began to speculate about what had happened to her. Had some miracle occurred? She wasn’t much help to them. It was a long time before she could describe her experience intelligibly. She would talk about a freedom that had woken up inside her. She also said that, through an inner questioning, she had realized that none of her old thoughts was true. Shortly after Katie got back from the halfway house, her home began to fill with people who had heard about her and had come to learn. She was able to communicate her inner inquiry in the form of specific questions that anyone who wanted freedom could apply on his own, without her. Soon she began to be invited to meet with small gatherings in people’s living rooms. Her hosts often asked her if she was “enlightened.” She would answer, “I’m just someone who knows the difference between what hurts and what doesn’t.” In 1992 she was invited to northern California, and The Work spread very fast from there. Katie accepted every invitation. She has been on the road almost constantly since 1993, demonstrating The Work in church basements, community centers, and hotel meeting rooms, in front of small and large audiences (admission is always free). And The Work has found its way into all kinds of organizations, from corporations, law firms, and therapists’ offices to hospitals, prisons, churches, and schools. It is now popular in other parts of the world where Katie has traveled. All across America and Europe there are groups of people who meet regularly to do The Work. Katie often says that the only way to understand The Work is to experience it. But it’s worth noting that inquiry fits precisely with current research into the biology of mind. Contemporary neuroscience identifies a particular part of the brain, sometimes called “the interpreter,” as the source of the familiar internal narrative that gives us our sense of self. Two prominent neuroscientists have recently characterized the quirky, undependable quality of the tale told by the interpreter. Antonio Damasio describes it this way: “Perhaps the most important revelation is precisely this: that the left cerebral hemisphere of humans is prone to fabricating verbal narratives that do not necessarily accord with the truth.” And Michael Gazzaniga writes: “The left brain weaves its story in order to convince itself and you that it is in full control... What is so adaptive about having what amounts to a spin-doctor in the left brain? The interpreter is really trying to keep our personal story together. To do that, we have to learn to lie to ourselves.” These insights, based on solid experimental work, show that we tend to believe our own press releases. Often when we think we’re being rational, we’re being spun by our own thinking. That trait explains how we get ourselves into the painful positions that Katie recognized in her own suffering. The self-questioning she discovered uses a different, less-known capacity of the mind to find a way out of its self-made trap. After doing The Work, many people report an immediate sense of release and freedom from thoughts that were making them miserable. But if The Work depended on a momentary experience, it would be far less useful than it is. The Work is an ongoing and deepening process of self-realization, not a quick fix. “It’s more than a technique,” Katie says. “It brings to life, from deep within us, an innate aspect of our being.” The deeper you go into The Work, the more powerful you realize it is. People who have been practicing inquiry for a while often say, “The Work is no longer something I do. It is doing me.” They describe how, without any conscious intention, the mind notices each stressful thought and undoes it before it can cause any suffering. Their internal argument with reality has disappeared, and they find that what remains is love — love for themselves, for other people, and for whatever life brings. The title of this book describes their experience: Loving “what is” becomes as easy and natural as breathing. III Considering that, all hatred driven hence, The [mind] recovers radical innocence And learns at last that it is self-delighting, Self-appeasing, self-affrighting, And that its own sweet will is Heaven’s will. William Butler Yeats I have waited until now to introduce the four questions to you, because they don’t make much sense out of context. The best way to meet them is to see how they function in an actual example of The Work. You’ll also meet what Katie calls the “turnaround,” which is a way of looking at reversed versions of a statement that you believe. The following dialogue with Katie took place before an audience of about two hundred people. Mary, the woman who is sitting opposite Katie on the stage, has filled out a one-page Worksheet that asked her to write down her thoughts about someone who upsets her. The instructions are: “Allow yourself to be as judgmental and petty as you really feel. Don’t try to be ‘spiritual’ or kind.” The pettier we can be when writing, the more likely it is that we’ll benefit from The Work. You’ll see that Mary hasn’t held back at all. She is a forceful woman, perhaps forty years old, slim, attractive, and dressed in expensive-looking exercise clothes. At the beginning of the dialogue her anger and impatience are palpable. A first experience of The Work, as a reader or onlooker, can be uncomfortable. It helps to remember that all the participants — Mary, Katie, and the audience — are on the same side here; all of them are looking for the truth. If Katie ever seems to be mocking or derisive, you’ll notice that she’s making fun of the thought that is causing someone’s suffering, never of the person himself. At the beginning of the dialogue, when Katie asks, “Do you really want to know the truth?,” she doesn’t mean her truth, or any abstract, predetermined truth, but Mary’s truth, the truth that is hidden behind her troubling thoughts. Mary has entered the dialogue in the first place because she trusts that Katie can help her discover where she is lying to herself. She welcomes Katie’s persistence. You’ll also notice right away that Katie is very free in her use of terms of endearment. One CEO, before a workshop that Katie gave to his top executives, felt that he had to issue a warning: “If she holds your hand and calls you ‘sweetheart’ or ‘honey,’ please don’t get excited. She does this with everyone.” Mary, reading the statements from her Worksheet: I hate my husband because he drives me crazy — everything about him, including the way he breathes. What disappoints me is that I don’t love him anymore and our relationship is a charade. I want him to be more successful, to not want to have sex with me, to get in shape, to get a life outside of me and the children, to not touch me anymore, and to be powerful. My husband shouldn’t fool himself that he’s good at our business. He should create more success. My husband is a wimp. He’s needy, and lazy. He’s fooling himself. I refuse to keep living a lie. I refuse to keep living my relationship as an imposter. Katie: Does that pretty well sum it up? [The audience bursts into laughter, and Mary laughs along with them.] By the sound of the laughter, it seems as though you speak for a lot of people in this room. So, let’s start at the top and see if we can begin to understand what going on. Mary: I hate my husband because he drives me crazy — everything about him, including the way he breathes. Katie: Your husband drives you crazy — is it true? [This is the first of the four questions: Is it true?] Mary: Yes. Katie: Okay. What’s an example of that?… He breathes? Mary: He breathes. When we’re doing conference calls for our business, I can hear his breath on the other end of the telephone, and I want to scream. Katie: So his breath drives you crazy — is that true? Mary: Yes. Katie: Can you absolutely know that that’s true? [The second question: Can you absolutely know that it’s true?] Mary: Yes! Katie: We can all relate to that. I hear that it really is true for you. In my experience, it can’t be your husband’s breath that’s driving you crazy; it has to be your thoughts about his breath that’s driving you crazy. So let’s take a closer look and see if that’s true. What are your thoughts about his breath on the phone? Mary: That he should be more aware that he’s breathing loudly during a conference call. Katie: How do you react when you believe that thought? [The third question: How do you react when you believe that thought?] Mary: I feel like I want to kill him. Katie: So what’s more painful — the thought you attach to about his breathing or his breathing? Mary: The breathing is more painful. I’m comfortable with the thought that I want to kill him. [Mary laughs, and so does the audience.] Katie: You can keep that thought. That’s the beautiful thing about The Work. You can keep all your thoughts. Mary: I’ve never done The Work before, so I don’t know any of the “right” answers. Katie: Your answers are perfect. Don’t rehearse. So he’s breathing on the phone and you have the thought that he should be more aware, and he’s not. What’s the next thought? Mary: It brings up every terrible thought I have about him. Katie: Okay, and he’s still breathing. “He should stop breathing into the phone on the conference call” — what’s the reality of it? Does he? Mary: No. I’ve told him to stop. Katie: And he still does it. That’s reality. What’s true is always what’s happening, not the story about what should be happening. “He should stop breathing on the phone” — is it true? Mary, after a pause: No. It’s not true. He’s doing it. That’s what’s true. That’s reality. Katie: So how do you react when you think the thought that you want him to stop breathing on the phone, and he doesn’t? Mary: How do I react? I want out. It feels uncomfortable because I know I want out and I know I’m not going anywhere. Katie: Let’s move back to inquiry, rather than moving further into your story, your interpretation of what’s happening. Do you really want to know the truth? Mary: Yes. Katie: Okay. It helps if we stick to one written statement at a time. Can you see a reason to drop the thought that you want him to stop breathing on the phone? [This is an additional question that Katie sometimes asks.] For those of you new to The Work, if you hear that I’m asking Mary to drop her story, let me make it very clear: I’m not. This is not about getting rid of thoughts, or about overcoming, improving, or surrendering them. None of that. This is about realizing for yourself internal cause and effect. The question is simply “Can you see a reason to drop this thought?” Mary: Yes, I can. It would be a lot more enjoyable to do conference calls without this thought. Katie: That’s a good reason. Can you find a stress-free reason to keep this thought, this lie, that he should stop breathing on the phone? [A second additional question.] Mary: No. Katie: Who would you be without that thought? [The fourth question: Who would you be without this thought?] Who would you be, while you’re on a conference call with your husband, if you didn’t have the ability to think that thought? Mary: I’d be much happier. I’d be more powerful. I wouldn’t be distracted. Katie: Yes, sweetheart. That’s it. It’s not his breathing that is causing your problem. It’s your thoughts about his breathing, because you haven’t investigated them to see that they oppose reality in the moment. Let’s look at your next statement. Mary: I don’t love him anymore. Katie: Is that true? Mary: Yes. Katie: Okay. Good. I hear that, and do you really want to know the truth? Mary: Yes. Katie: Okay. Be still. There’s no right or wrong answer. You don’t love him — is that true? [Mary is silent] If you had to answer honestly either “yes” or “no,” right now, and you had to live forever with your answer — your truth or your lie — what would your answer be? You don’t love him — is that true? [There is a long pause. Then Mary begins to cry.] Mary: No. It’s not true. Katie: That’s a very courageous answer. If we answer it that way, with what’s really true for ourselves, we think that there may be no way out. “Is it true?” is just a question! We’re terrified to answer the simplest question honestly, because we project what that may mean in the imagined future. We think we have to do something about it. How do you react when you believe the thought that you don’t love him? Mary: It makes my whole life a stupid charade. Katie: Can you see a reason to drop this thought that you don’t love him? And I’m not asking you to drop the thought. Mary: Yes, I can see a reason to drop it. Katie: Can you think of one stress-free reason to keep the thought? Mary, after a long pause: I think if I keep my story, then I can keep him from wanting to have sex all the time. Katie: Is that a stress-free reason? It seems stressful to me. Mary: I guess it is. Katie: Can you find one stress-free reason to keep that thought? Mary: Oh, I see. No. There aren’t any stress-free reasons to keep the story. Katie: Fascinating. Who would you be, standing with your husband, without the thought that you don’t love him? Mary: It would be great. It would be fabulous. That’s what I want. Katie: I’m hearing that with the thought it’s stressful. And without the thought it’s fabulous. So what does your husband have to do with your unhappiness? We’re just noticing here. So, “I don’t love my husband” — turn it around. [After the four questions comes the turnaround.] Mary: I do love my husband. Katie: Feel it. It has nothing to do with him, does it? Mary: No. It really doesn’t. I do love my husband, and you’re right, it doesn’t have anything to do with him. Katie: And sometimes you think you hate him, and that doesn’t have anything to do with him either. The man’s just breathing. You tell the story that you love him or you tell the story that you hate him. It doesn’t take two people to have a happy marriage. It only takes one — you! There’s another turnaround. Mary: I don’t love myself. I can relate to that one. Katie: And you may think that if you divorce him, then you’ll feel good. But if you haven’t investigated your thinking, you’ll attach these same concepts onto whoever comes into your life next. We don’t attach to people or to things; we attach to uninvestigated concepts that we believe to be true in the moment. Let’s look at the next statement on your Worksheet. Mary: I want my husband not to be needy, not to be dependent on me, to be more successful, to not want to have sex with me, to get in shape, to get a life outside of me and the children, and to be more powerful. Those are just a few. Katie: Let’s turn that whole statement around. Mary: I want me not to be needy. I want me not to be dependent on him. I want me to be more successful. I want me to want to have sex with him. I want me to get in shape. I want me to get a life outside of him and the children. I want me to be more powerful. Katie: So, “he shouldn’t be needy” — is it true? What’s the reality of it? Is he? Mary: He’s needy. Katie: “He shouldn’t be needy” is a lie, because the guy is needy, according to you. So, how do you react when you think the thought “I want him to stop being needy,” and in your reality he is needy? Mary: I just want to run away all the time. Katie: Who would you be in his presence without the thought “He shouldn’t be needy and dependent”? Mary: What I just understood is that I could be with him in a space of love, instead of just having my defenses up. It’s like if I notice any bit of neediness, I’m out of there. I’ve got to run. That’s what I do with my life. Katie: When he’s acting needy, in your opinion, you don’t say “No” honestly. You run away or want to run away instead of being honest with yourself and him. Mary: That’s true. Katie: Well, it would have to be. You have to call him needy until you can get some clarity and honest communication going with yourself. So let’s be clear. You be him and be very needy. I’ll take the role of clarity. Mary: Mr. Needy comes in and says, “I just had the best phone call. You’ve got to hear about it. It was this guy and he’s going to be fabulous in the business. And I had another call….” You know, he just goes on and on. Meanwhile, I’m busy. I’ve got a deadline. Katie: “Sweetheart, I hear that you had a wonderful phone call. I love that, and I would also like you to leave the room now. I have a deadline to meet.” Mary: “We have to talk about our plans. When are we going to Hawaii? We have to figure out what airlines…” Katie: “I hear that you want to talk about our plans for Hawaii, so let’s discuss this at dinner tonight. I really want you to leave the room now. I have a deadline to meet.” Mary: “If one of your girlfriends called, you would talk to her for an hour. Now you can’t listen to me for two minutes?” Katie: “You could be right, and I want you to leave the room now. It may sound cold, but it’s not. I just have a deadline to meet.” Mary: I don’t do it like that. Usually I’m mean to him. I just seethe. Katie: You have to be mean, because you’re afraid to tell the truth and say “No.” You don’t say, “Sweetheart, I would like you to leave. I have a deadline,” because you want something from him. What scam are you running on yourself and on him? What do you want from him? Mary: I am never straightforward with anybody. Katie: Because you want something from us. What is it? Mary: I can’t stand when somebody doesn’t like me. I don’t want disharmony. Katie: So you want our approval. Mary: Yes, and I want to maintain harmony. Katie: Sweetheart, if your husband approves of what you say and what you do, then there is harmony in your home — is that true? Does it work? Is there harmony in your home? Mary: No. Katie: You trade your integrity for harmony in the home. It doesn’t work. Spare yourself from seeking love, approval, or appreciation — from anyone. And watch what happens in reality, just for fun. Read your statement again. Mary: I want my husband not to be needy. Katie: All right. Turn it around. Mary: I want me not to be needy. Katie: Yes, you need all this harmony. You need his approval. You need his breathing to change. You need his sexuality to change for you. Who’s the needy one? Who is dependent on whom? So let’s turn the whole list around. Mary: I need myself not to be needy, not to be dependent… Katie: On your husband, perhaps? Mary: I need myself to be more successful. I need myself to not want to have sex with me. Katie: That one could be really legitimate if you sit with it. How many times do you run the story of how he has sex with you and you hate it? Mary: Constantly. Katie: Yes. You’re having sex with him in your mind, and thinking how terrible that is. You tell the story, over and over, of what it’s like having sex with your husband. That story is what’s repelling you, not your husband. Sex without a story has never repelled anyone. It just is what it is. You’re having sex or you’re not. It’s our thoughts about sex that repel us. Write that one out too, honey. You could write a whole Worksheet on your husband and sexuality. Mary: I get it. Katie: Okay, read the next statement. Mary: I need him to get in shape. But I am in shape. Katie: Oh, really? How about mentally? Mary: Oh. I could work on that. Katie: Are you doing the best you can? Mary: Yes. Katie: Well, maybe he is too. “He’s supposed to be in shape” — is that true? Mary: No. He’s not in shape. Katie: How do you react when you believe the thought that he should be in shape, and he’s not? How do you treat him? What do you say? What do you do? Mary: Everything is subtle. I show him my muscles. I don’t ever look at him with approval. I don’t ever admire him. I don’t ever do anything kind in that direction. Katie: Okay, close your eyes. Look at yourself looking at him that way. Now look at his face. [There is a pause. Mary sighs.] Keep your eyes closed. Look at him again. Who would you be, standing there with him, without the thought that he should be in shape? Mary: I would look at him and see how handsome he is. Katie: Yes, angel. And you’d see how much you love him. Isn’t that fascinating? This is very exciting. So let’s just be there a moment. Look at how you treat him, and he still wants to go to Hawaii with you. That’s amazing! Mary: What’s amazing about this guy is that I am so horrible and mean and he loves me without conditions. It drives me nuts. Katie: “He drives you nuts” — is that true? Mary: No. So far it’s been my thinking that drives me nuts. Katie: So let’s go back. “He should get in shape” — turn it around. Mary: I should get in shape. I should get my thinking in shape. Katie: Yes. Every time you look at him and are repulsed, get your thinking in shape. Judge your husband, write it down, ask four questions, and turn it around. But only if you are tired of the pain. Okay, honey, I think you’ve got it. Just continue through the rest of the statements on your Worksheet in the same manner. I love sitting with you. And welcome to inquiry. Welcome to The Work. IV Step aside from all thinking, and there is nowhere you can’t go. Seng-ts’an (the Third Founding Teacher of Zen) In Loving What Is, Katie has given you everything you need in order to do The Work by yourself or with others. The book will guide you, step by step, through the whole process, and along the way it will show you many people doing The Work directly with Katie. These one-on-one dialogues, in which Katie brings her clarity to the most complicated human problems, are examples — dramatic examples, some of them — of how ordinary people can find their own freedom through inquiry. Stephen Mitchell

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:12:33 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: Modest, she ain't ... Message:

I have spent a good part of my life studying and translating the classic texts of the great spiritual traditions, and I recognized something very similar in process here. At the core of these traditions - in works such as the Book of Job, the Tao Te Ching, and the Bhagavad Gita - there is an intense questioning about life and death, and a profound, joyful wisdom that emerges as an answer ... which is a shame, for she has much to be modest about. The Book of Job, the Tao Te Ching, and the Bhagavad Gita have what was that in common? I don't find the Tao questioning as such -- if anything it answers without questioning. Job sure is questioning God (yeah, that one) but that's because the psychopath is picking on him for fcuk's sake. I'd say the Bhagavad Gita's pretty agonised, but I never managed to read it.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:52:23 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Here's her answer to terrorism Message:

I know she didn't write this, a fan did, but it's on her website and apparently endorsed as a Katie-esque way to see the issue: A Passage on Terrorism Dear Katie, This did itself on my bicycle today. Terrorism is very interesting in terms of inquiry. I know you've already done it but here are some words anyway: How to disarm a terrorist without doing anything. What is a terrorist? Someone whose chosen weapon, or profession, is terror. Someone who thinks he can achieve his ends by making us feel fearful, angry, helpless, stricken, etc. Everything he does is designed to affect our internal life in a certain way. He can only (he thinks) have his way by destroying our peace in this moment. So we arm him every time we imagine scenes of horror—and disarm him every time we come back to peace. And we don’t even have to know what his objective was. The chain is broken. - Anonymous Yeah, I'd want to be anonymous too, believe me.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 11:58:29 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Finally -- shades of the guru or what? Message:

Count the similiarities: Introduction to Byron Katie and The Work By Jack Dawson - Written 6-4-97 At 55 Byron Katie moves with simple freedom through a life whose directions are prompted by a simple, natural and motiveless flow in response to what arises within and around her. Katie says that when confronted with a choice in your life the worst that can happen if you go one way is a concept and the worst that can happen if you go the other way is a concept, and the worst that can happen if you stay where you are is still just a concept. A concept is the worst that can happen. Imagine that! The Work is Katie's brilliant strategy to uncover and dissolve concepts which prevent us from living life as it arises and being our true nature, Love itself. In doing The Work, the truth of this is not only revealed but experienced. Katie is free of any belief (she defines a belief as thoughts we become attached to and identify with). She is at peace with herself and with existence. She is as content facilitating intensives as not doing so, as her fulfillment comes from the perpetual joy and peace of simply being, which is endlessly fascinating in its infinite dimensions. The deftness, clarity and natural compassion with which she manages the thorniest of problems people bring to her is truly akin to a magic show. It is not possible for me to conceive of any problems surviving once opened up to the scrutiny of The Work and Katie's inclusive heart and surgical eye. After a day of participating in doing The Work with Katie - even if I don't personally do a piece in front of the group - I experience a thrilling and fascinating sense that everyone's work is also my own and I am left with a genuine sense of healing, peace, and my own inner knowing. A day with Katie is like being in clear warm sunshine after weeks in the fog. She welcomes all as her own family. She is warm and natural, embracing all who come to her. She not only speaks of 'no separation' she IS what she speaks. Katie is in this world we all recognize as reality and participates in it totally: She has a husband and children. She goes shopping, to parties, chats and takes walks with friends. And at the same time she is not ' of this world'. She does not identify with anything about it and in her presence I feel this freedom, this peace, this radiance, this ebullient joy! Often it takes a while to grasp the language Katie uses as she is navigating her way in describing a non-linear, timelessness to minds based in linear, dualistic thought rooted in time and space. Katie insists that it is not important to understand her words. What she is saying is somehow 'caught' or received. Her words by-pass the mind anyhow. It is the place from which she speaks and the place in us which hears that matters. This unspeakable place becomes alive within me in Katie's presence, awakened and joyful. Katie does not suggest trying to 'kill' the mind. She uses it to do what it does best: judge and project outside itself. Katie urges us to do this as a child would - without editing itself - and to inquire as to its validity with 4 simple questions: Is it true? Can I really know that it's true? What do I get when I hold that belief? Who (or what) would I be without that belief? It is at this point that she suggests we turn our projections and judgments around. Thoughts in themselves are harmless, unless one becomes attached and believes them to be true. Katie discovered the The Work of Byron Katie in observing the mind and its attempts to distract her from abidance in joyous peace and awareness. What the ancients in the East termed 'Sat, Chit, Ananda' (Being, Consciousness, Bliss). She discovered that the mind has a very limited agenda. It will do anything to keep us from knowing that what Is simply Is. Katie says there are only 3 Kinds of Business: My business, Your business and God's business. When a thought passes through the mind it becomes a fun game for you to ask yourself. 'Whose business am I in with this thought?' 'Take a look!' I hear Katie urge with that twinkle in her penetrating eyes as I feel her smile melt even the most tenacious minds. When you come to a weekend intensive with Katie as she travels around the world sharing this work or in Barstow, where The Work is ongoing and available to all who come, you will find the same process according to the pre-designed format that Katie has discovered is the way the mind works things out. The disturbance can be earth-shaking or trivial. To your own utter amazement and surprise you come to realize that the only possible thing between you and your own peace, freedom and joy was only an illusion. What a gift is this simple, unique profound formula for 'undoing' one's own individual pain. This Work is for those who want to know the truth within their own heart. Katie urges us all to be honest with ourselves. To ask 'the four questions' as a meditation. To be still, to feel and to know. It's astounding how many of one's burning issues of years, perhaps of a lifetime can completely dissolve so quickly. Actually writing out The Work format ingeniously enables you to look into the workings of your own mind and get a full in-depth scope of how you are feeling and thinking. You may be surprised at the nooks and crannies of your own mind that are revealed when you write out The Work that would elude your scrutiny if you just spoke of it. Eventually, after a few investigations, you find your awareness beginning to remain in its center. Being with Katie brings one to the threshold of the space where abidance in natural, joyful being is experienced. After all, it is Reality, not our tyrannical belief system that we are choosing to accept in doing The Work. There is bound to be peace and joy arising when we choose to be with WHAT arises AS IT IS rather than wishing for and insisting on our own version of it. Such acceptance is possible. Such peace and freedom from belief is realizable: not only because The Work is so powerful and effective, but because Katie resides in the joyful being of truth and it is contagious! With skill, clarity, all encompassing love, ease, humor and grace Katie directs your attention where it least is inclined to look for truth inside your own self, inside your own words and thoughts and clung-to beliefs, turning them and you inside out. I feel penetrated with the truth in Katie's presence, pierced to the core. [ The Work ]

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 15:09:11 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Does she give good Shaktipat? Message:

Does she do the oil thing like Sai Baby? Oh that's none of my business.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:27:58 (EDT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Masters Of Sophistry Message:

These guys try to have their cake and eat it too. In another article, 'Information Management', Mitch Ditkoff says: The problem with trying to draw conclusions about Maharaji is that the information available about him varies so much, depending on the source. In 'The Dirty Joke', Ditkoff says: If you talk to a thousand people who are (or have been) students of Maharaji, you will get a thousand different impressions of who he is and what he does. Your guess about the accuracy of their perceptions is as good as mine. And in 'Responsibility', David Andersen says: One thing I've understood recently: you have very little control over most things that happen to you, and no control over what other people say or do. What you do have control over is how you react and respond to words and events. Ditkoff says that reality is different for everyone, that's the way it is. Andersen says that if your reality is not 100% accurate, blaming is useless. The Maharaji organization has produced masters of sophistry. And working in teams. Steve

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 16:21:21 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Re: Masters Of Sophistry Message:

There is no bodhi tree nor stand of Buddha bright. Since all is void where can the dust alight? No, dear sophist, your argument confounds. For if there is no IS where did you write it down?

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 12:38:59 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Jim Subject: Wonder if she was in 'the cult' Message:

Jim, This is fascinating. Thanks for getting back on topic here. It is truly ridiculous to say that you can't have anything to say or think about something because the seeds of everything you might have anything to say about are within you. You are spot on in that, under her philosophy, all you can do is rearrange the furniture and say it is perfect. Duh, acceptance, has anyone heard of that? 'The Work,' indeed! Just because I accept things as they are doesn't mean that I don't see what's good and bad, in my own judgment, and act accordingly. Under her philosophy, I guess you just end up looking the other way when you see abuse, when you see harm being done. Under her philosophy, you would just accept what anyone is giving you, without walking away, because, ummm, who am I to judge. Poppycock rubbish. Francesca

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Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 19:44:40 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: All Subject: 'Kill the Americans' Message:

Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders World Islamic Front Statement ___ About This Document ___ Osama bin Laden has published two religious orders seeking to justify violence against Western interests in the Middle East. The first was a document entitled, Ladenese Epistle: Declaration of War. The statement presented here was published in February 1998. 23 February 1998 Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan Fazlul Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: 'But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)'; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders. The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter. No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone: First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples. If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless. Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation. So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors. Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula. All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in 'Al- Mughni,' Imam al-Kisa'i in 'Al-Bada'i,' al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam in his books, where he said: 'As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life.' On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims: The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God.' This is in addition to the words of Almighty God: 'And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)? -- women and children, whose cry is: 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'' We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson. Almighty God said: 'O ye who believe, give your response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered.' Almighty God also says: 'O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things.' Almighty God also says: 'So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith.'

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Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 20:02:33 (EDT) From: PatD Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Re: 'Kill the Americans' Message:

This is the freakiest thing about this guy & his millions of supporters. He's going for broke in his mission to spread this knowledge(Islam)to every land even if it means everyone is dead. I've tried not to believe that this shit isn't a war to the death between the righteous & the infidels but the more I find out the less I can convince myself. What are we going to do !

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Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 20:22:40 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: PatD Subject: Re: 'Kill the Americans' Message:

Buy many large bags of staples; rice, beans, and grain. Really we don't know what's going to happen next. The western forces are being awfully careful. If they can buy off the natives with enough goodies, everything may settle down. Hopefully we won't bomb Iraq... wouldn't be too bright.

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Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 14:57:53 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: All Subject: You Know Who is still greater than God Message:

''People look for truth. As though truth was some mysterious thing. People look for God as though God was some mysterious thing. Take away the confusion, take away the doubts, take away all those ideas that we fill ourselves with in lieu of reality, and you will find standing in front of you is the most incredible truth. What you will find standing in front of you is the most incredible God. What you will find standing in front of you is the most incredible reality. And it will be a simple reality. It will not be a reality that is complicated, that is hard to understand. It will not be a feeling that is so far removed that more concepts and ideas have to be brought in to accept it. It would be pleasant. It would be when you felt it, it would make you happy. It would bring peace in your life.'' Excerpt from Rev Rawat's sermon in Thousand Oaks, July 31st, 2001. And he who shows you that God is obviously greater than God. If Rawat were sane and honest he would admit that the four techs of K are mental mental health techs of gyanyoga and have nothing to do with ''God.'' But of course then he would have no juju and and no one would cough up the cash to renovate his 8 million dollar dilapidated cottage in Malibu. Oh, yes, the man is still doing his same old God hokus-pokus.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 14:36:39 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: You Know Who is still greater than God Message:

I still can't believe people don't take barf bags to these events. I would need one.

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Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 14:39:13 (EDT) From: Timmi Email: timmi56@yahoo.com To: All Subject: an observation re: rawat's finances... Message:

Something I would like to share is the attitude of premies here regarding how rawat can afford the jet, etc., and all his goodies. The claim is that rawat has many patents for his own inventions and that these bring him untold amounts of money. The number of patents and inventions I hear is always around 100. And the absolute ''fact'' here, as far as the premies are concerned, is that he purchased the jet and everything else completely from the profits of the inventions. In my reading I have been unable to find rawat's name on any of his property --- it all appears to be help by corporations. If he is independently wealthy from inventions, then why does he buy stuff with these profits and then 'hide' it under a corporation name? Anybody help me with this one? I'd love to know the facts --- real truth, not 'premie truth'.

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 01:42:36 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Here's a patent Message:

... but he needed some help from Reeves McDow. --f [ Rawat & McDow patent ]

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Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 15:01:39 (EDT) From: Francesca :o Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Yeah, Timmi, you're on to something Message:

Dear Timmi, You're really onto something here -- I just don't know if anyone who posts here has access to the information that would give definitive answers. Getting patents is VERY expensive -- I used to work for a patent law firm years ago, so I know. Many inventors can't afford to do it themselves, and work on salary for other entities that actually own and patent the products. Not only that, but getting a patent is not easy -- there are legal criteria for being allowed to have a patent. Just because he's filed some papers doesn't mean he's been granted patent protection, for example. Getting a patent is meaningless unless you or someone else actually markets your invention and sells it. If you don't make any money off the patent, you've just spent a bundle for nothing. On top of that, patent protection only lasts for so many years. All spas of a certain type, for example, were called 'Jacuzzis' at one time, because the ienvention was patented. The time for the patent protection is over, and now any manufacturer can make a spa. So if you don't earn any money off a patent in a certain period of time, it's a waste of money too. It's somewhat of a speculative investment. I'm wondering if M's prowess as an inventor is just as meaningless as his prowess as a musician. After all, who has bought any 'music' he has supposedly made except a bunch of premies. Big whoop. Maybe those expensive watches he sells to the premies are his? Another big whoop. He certainly couldn't live off that. I don't like to post on LG and get them all riled up -- it's not my style -- but you might want to ask those folks to point to things that M has patented. If there are really such patents, and they know who actually owns the patents, you can probably look them up on the US Patent and Trademark Office's website. It's up to them to prove he actually earns his keep. My guess is that even if there ARE patents, and even if the ARE owned, it may be by some shell corporation and not 'the man' himself. It's not only doorknobs he doesn't want to touch. He really wants to be 'not of this world' but live in it BIG TIME. Francesca

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Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 19:26:09 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Francesca :o Subject: do you know if Message:

People just invent things and don't get patents? Can someone else take it and patent it as their own?

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Date: Mon, Oct 08, 2001 at 00:49:33 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: do you know if (OT) Message:

People just invent things and don't get patents? Can someone else take it and patent it as their own? --- I'm sure they do, all the time. Some inventions can't be patented, because they don't meet the legal criteria. I think a famous one was stacking chairs. As far as someone else taking it and patenting it, I'm sure they can. I'm not knowledgeable about the legal recourse one has when they find out their invention has been stolen. Of course, you'd have to prove you invented it first, and have it stand up in court, that's a given. When I worked for the patent law firm years ago my boss was working with foreign filings, rather than domestic filings and domestic infringement cases. Francesca

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Date: Sun, Oct 07, 2001 at 19:27:25 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: btdt Subject: for Francesca Message:

Ooops, sorry, the above post was meant for you!

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