Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Oct 02, 2001 To: Oct 09, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Cynthia -:- My Biggest Mistake Here... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:50:59 (EDT)
__ such -:- Draft gender feminists' cult 2 fight Taliban! -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 02:32:24 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Such.... -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 12:45:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- internalized trauma shame; commonality; empathy -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 16:18:20 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: Draft gender feminists' cult 2 fight Taliban! -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 04:19:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- equality, humanism vs. Animal Farm -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 17:04:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: equality, humanism vs. Animal Farm -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 21:51:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- bingo! Great! -:- Sat, Oct 06, 2001 at 15:20:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- RAWA -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 07:55:01 (EDT)
__ bill -:- Autumn in Vermont -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 00:03:05 (EDT)
__ silvia -:- BIG WORDS -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 16:36:51 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- My Response... -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:47:44 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- Re: My Response... -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 00:38:58 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Is a sponge the opposite of a spring? -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 21:28:22 (EDT)
__ __ JohnT -:- The women's war -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:57:05 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Re: My Response...no sweat. -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:42:26 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- look after yourself -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:25:04 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- this male dominated forum-- -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:54:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- correction: this stereotyper-dominated forum -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 03:14:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Look Janet -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:54:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: Look again -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:45:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Re: this male dominated forum-- -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:42:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Not true Rick -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:58:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Not true Rick -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:28:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Blatant stereotyping -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:56:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The stereotypes are true. -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 21:41:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- Then the logical conclusion is -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 21:58:00 (EDT)
__ Francesca :P -:- Every one of us makes this place -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 00:50:02 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- long live feminism! -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:59:52 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- To the forum Ladies -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 05:47:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Re: To the forum Ladies -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 19:28:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: To the forum -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:29:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: To the forum..Yo Janet -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:52:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: To the forum Ladies -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:53:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- No problem Gerry -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:45:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- oh dear.. -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:17:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: oh dear..Yep, you're right Abi -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:36:26 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- The terror is over-done -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 21:47:32 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- ok, caca.org terror was over-done [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 03:22:12 (EDT)
__ __ Vera -:- The terror is under-done if anything -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:40:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ YIKES -:- Typhoid Vera? -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 15:22:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- I'm afraid we'll have to see that cite. -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 22:36:11 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: The terror is over-done -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:41:41 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- outbreak -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 23:49:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: outbreak -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:28:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: outbreak -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:43:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Here's a Link -:- Re: outbreak -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 13:05:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: outbreak -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:26:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: outbreak -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:05:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Scott, give peas a chance -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:46:32 (EDT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Really? Over done? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:14:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- No wonder I always fall for nurses -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:48:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Yes, overdone -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:38:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Know your enemy and never under-rate them -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 02:45:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Know your enemy and never under-rate them -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 10:00:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Yes, overdone- again I agree -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:51:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- Re: Yes, overdone- again I agree -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:18:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Yes, overdone but you do know terror -:- Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 10:24:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Yes, overdone -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:10:53 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Hope so. -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:04:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- What I mean by hysteria -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:48:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: What I mean by hysteria -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:50:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ PatD -:- Re: Hope so. -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:24:10 (EDT)
__ Peg -:- Oh please Cynthia... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:26:38 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: My Biggest Mistake Here... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:56:43 (EDT)
__ Moley -:- What Cynthia!!!!! -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:00:27 (EDT)
__ __ maybe -:- if your children WERE americans... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:24:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- It's not just about Americans -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:38:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ Moley -:- Re: if your children WERE americans... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:23:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- It's academic. -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 19:20:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: if your children WERE americans... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:40:32 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- P.S. It IS About Me and Maharaji... [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:24:07 (EDT)
__ __ Gerry -:- I'm deleting this thread -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:42:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Moley -:- Why? Don't you think girls can handle it? [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:48:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Why? Don't you think girls can handle it? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:59:14 (EDT)

Nigel -:- NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot)? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:25:09 (EDT)
__ Original Richard -:- Richard in this thread is not me -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 23:22:01 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Richard, hypertension ...OT -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:59:32 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Thanks for clarification, Richard -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:53:09 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Thanks Nige (re:below) -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:12:16 (EDT)
__ __ Another Angle... -:- ...to similar question -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:14:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- It's that paper again... -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:26:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: It's that paper again... -:- Sat, Oct 06, 2001 at 02:52:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca :) -:- EXCELLENT !!! THANK YOU!!! [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:58:59 (EDT)
__ __ Henrik Ibsen says ... -:- The minority is always right. -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 20:23:51 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Thanks Nige (re:below) -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:16:57 (EDT)
__ Richard -:- My Post..and Moley. -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:32:12 (EDT)
__ __ Moley -:- Richard - From a 'contemptible slime' -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:05:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Re: Richard - From a 'contemptible slime' -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:18:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Richard - From a 'contemptible slime' -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:25:32 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Moley's not a Slime -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:29:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- John: this is what happened -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:17:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Recent exes forum -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 19:25:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- Thanks for sticking up for me JHB -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 20:01:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Moley -:- Thank you JHB xxx [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:25:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Moley's not a Slime -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:04:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ N&M -:- MUST READ * LOL * be a scriptwriter [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:30:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Moley's not a Slime -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:02:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Yes, she is a complete slime, but I love her..... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:19:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- Nigel?? -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:39:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nige -:- Re: Nigel?? -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 18:43:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re:Yes,sheis a complete slime, but I love her..... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:35:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Complete slime, but I have forgiven her. her -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:58:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Let's be realistic -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:58:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- So is it an AMERICAN forum? [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:04:43 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Richard would you please -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:01:09 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot) -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:24:26 (EDT)
__ Private Forum Participant -:- Nigel You were Misinformed -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:26:32 (EDT)
__ __ Moley -:- No Nigel wasn't misinformed -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:31:47 (EDT)
__ Recent Exes FA -:- Re: NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot) -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:07:38 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Re: NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot) -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:31:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ FA/RE -:- Re: NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot) -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:55:39 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot) -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:40:34 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- I apologise, Nigel -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:36:42 (EDT)
__ __ NigeandMoley -:- Relax Pat, it's ok.. -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:14:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ PatD -:- Re: Relax Pat, it's ok.. -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 21:14:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- PatD, you are an angel -:- Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:08:22 (EDT)

Rick -:- Greyhound Buslines Suspends Service OT -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 08:21:05 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Was it an Arab? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 08:59:09 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- Re: Was it an Arab? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 09:10:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Suedoula -:- Re: Was it an Arab? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 10:57:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- Was a Jew from Afghanistan -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 12:41:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Was it an Arab? -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:25:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hate to ask ... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:38:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Hate to ask ... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:48:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- more... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 12:00:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Due to the need to be PC -:- the networks can't say [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 09:16:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- No, the need to be certain... -:- Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:47:42 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:50:59 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My Biggest Mistake Here...
Message:
My biggest mistake was to start posting here again. After a couple of weeks of reading some (not all) of the political discussions, it's become clear that one's views are not accepted unless they are 1) from a man; 2) especially an educated man; 3) educated women. No views by women and feelings allowed...that's how it feels and appears to me.

I am not interested in hashing out Bin Laden's and the Talabad problems, the jihad, the cult and oppression of innocent men, women and children. Why? Because I can't change it and discussing it brings out too much of my old terror.

I am a proud American. If nuking the whole area wouldn't start WWIII, and destroy the planet, I say, hell, nuke the whole area and that will be that. I am angry and terrorized. I do want revenge. But I don't think there's a safe way to do it without endangering our species on this planet.

I heard an interview of one woman whose little girl was so afraid, she said ''Mama, is there another planet we can go to live on?'' Quite telling, IMO.

There are many meanings of the word terrorism, the root word of which is terror:

terror:
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French terreur, from Latin terror, from terrEre to frighten; akin to Greek trein to be afraid, flee,
tremein to tremble -- more at TREMBLE
Date: 14th century
1 : a state of intense fear
2 a : one that inspires fear : SCOURGE b : a frightening aspect c : a cause of anxiety : WORRY d : an appalling person or thing; especially : BRAT 3 : REIGN OF TERROR
4 : violence (as bombing) committed by groups in order to intimidate a population or government into granting their demands (insurrection and revolutionary terror)...synonym see FEAR

reign of terror
Etymology: Reign of Terror, a period of the French Revolution that was conspicuous for mass executions of political suspects
Date: 1801
A state or a period of time marked by violence often committed by those in power that produces widespread terror.

So we have political, global terrorism. Yet I know that terrorism begins at home. You see, for 19 years I was raised by a terrorist. I know all too well the affects of years and years of indoctrination into a world of terror, fear, worry, anxiety. My adrenal glands are shot now. I was much too little to not have my central nervous system destroyed for life because of the terror.

As a child living in my little world with my terrorist, I learned how to protect myself. How? By waiting until I became bigger and able to leave--and kicking my terrorist in the balls when he came after me. In young adulthood I asked: Why didn't Mom leave? Why didn't she protect us? Why didn't she retaliate?

For one thing, whenever she tried to protect her children the terrorist attempted murder on her. So she was too full of fear to react. She was for so many years made to believe she was powerless. She dosed herself with valium so she could raise her five daughters--the valium didn't make her tranqualized, it just made her normal enough to function. She knew then, as I now do, that if she even had left him, he would have murdered us all. This is know for sure.

Headlines: The Hartford Courant: Man Murders Wife, Five daughters, and Self. It would have been us.

What terrorism and fanaticism does to those who fall victim to it, living in it, whether in a country's policial/religious oppression by it, or living in one home in Connecticut is really quite indescribable--and not much different basically.

Have you seen the cover of Time Magazine? There's a whole article about what products to buy for protection against bio-chemical warfare--and what works and what doesn't.

I don't have much confidence in the outcome of our world's plans to fight terrorism. IMO, world leaders missed the boat on that one many years ago, to opt for power and money. And yes, most world leaders are men.

So I am a feminist, married to a man. I'm a terrorism survivor, every day, for 19 years. So I think without the big words, I can express what the feeling is based on direct experience.

Frankly, I think the intellectuals here are admirable for making such good talk.

Shit, you even got kudos on LG about your discussions. For what that's worth from another bunch of cultists.

So, signing off again for now. May be back to read, maybe not. The long tomes of arguments have become so boring to me, not to mention too many words--SAY the obvious! I was always taught as a writer that too many words does not a good writer make.

Forum 7? What is it anymore? I certainly don't know, but won't be called a cultist because I happen to have educated myself about oppression of women and children across this world over the centuries.

Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 02:32:24 (EDT)
From: such
Email: nobananas@pinkoystercult.org
To: Cynthia
Subject: Draft gender feminists' cult 2 fight Taliban!
Message:
Women Oppressors, The Corruption of Power:

btw, one of my terrorists was mommy dearest - imagine, for instance, being a helpless lil' kid and pinned in a corner of the house, held down with a butcher knife at your throat and your mom screaming at the top of her lungs, 'I'm going to kill you!!', and being humiliated, abused and pummeled bloody on a regular basis by both parents.

then, later, being in relationships with violent, psychologically unstable, verbally abusive women, who think it's somehow ok to sucker punch and/or kick a man, etc. whenever a woman gets angry.

then, your kid gets kidnapped and stolen by your deceitful ex's family, and the judge [in another part of the country thousands of miles away] tells you in court, 'she's the woman, the mom, so she gets custody, and you're the man, so you're gonna pay, and you can see your child 1 Saturday each month for 10 hours.'

then having the best professional qualifications, record, work experience, and references of all applicants [according to the search committee], and being passed over repeatedly [10 times] for tenure in favor of women/minority affirmation action recent hirees.

meanwhile, being sexually harassed by the woman dean of the college for 5 years, and finally being threatened with dismissal/non-renewal of your faculty contract if you date anyone else and don't give in and sleep with her - 'after all', she said, 'I'm a woman dean, and you're a man, so who'll believe you, if you tell anyone? - hahaha!!', she informed me. then she sent me a card the next day, specifically joking about sexual harassment - flaunting it.

then, bringing complaints from a number of students about the rabid leftist p.c. textbook [mandated by the curriculum committee] directly to the curriculum commitee, consisting of 2 butch lesbian gender feminists, one of whom tells you blatantly, 'if there's a bias against white males in the book, frankly that's a bias I happen to like.' Then, the pair combine and network and maliciously backstab among your colleagues to create a hostile work environment for you through their innuendoes and campaign, unlawfully making it so uncomfortable and stressful at work that you apply to teach at another college.

then, having your office demoted to a cubicle and the new hiree faculty member, taunting you as she moves her stuff into your former office, 'don't you think affirmative action is Great?!! No? Well, You males are just going to have to accept being the necessary victims in the New World Order.' [-- Yeah, like, it'll be over my dead body when that happens, b--ch!]

then, miragey's paid women honchos in power abusively chewing you out, a voluteer, and vulgarly ordering you around using 4-letter expletives, while demanding special perks for themselves -- any time they feel like it.

In fact, it is Power which corrupts -- the abuse of power knows NO gender. I have definitely observed that Women in power can be every bit as abusive, wicked and corrupt as the worst male powers, and those women with an axe to grind are even more so.

btw, affirmative action protects every group, except one -- it does not protect white males.

I urge any and all male-bashing, pathetic gender feminists on the face of the earth to move to Afghanistan, where they might actually serve a purpose, temporarily, in fighting their like-minded male counterparts, the Taliban.

At one university where I taught, the honcho feminists even created a turkey-baster club: Lesbians Advocating Babies Inseminated Artificially [aka LABIA], advocating the misguided spawning of fatherless children.

In the region where I live the feminists in power in government wanted mandatory castration of all convicted male sex offenders - but not genital mutilation of women sex offenders/pedophiles.

recommended reading:

Who Stole Feminism, by Dr. Cynthia Somers
Why Men Are the Way They Are, by Dr. Warren Farrell
The Myth of Male Power, by Dr. Warren Farrell
The Hazards of Being Male, Dr. Herb Goldberg
Iron John, Robert Bly

lessee, statistically the person most likely to murder a child - its mother
most of the money in the US is held by -- women
who live longer - women
who die younger - men
who are drafted and sent off to die in wars - men
who are not forced to register and be drafted in USA - women
who are the majority of students in college and grad school - women
who are the majority of students in law schools and medical colleges - women
who are still given custody of children in 70-80% of divorces - women, regardless of any parental skills
who are discriminated against by teachers in grading - boys
who don't have to pass the same standards in testing for fire/police/military - women
who can join an acceptable single gender 'club' or professional organization - women [definitely not men anymore]
who can claim sexual harassment or job discrimination and get a promotion out of it - women
which group has benefitted most from affirmative action - white women, [replacing white men and via new positions]
who have no say whatsoever over the lives/fate of their unborn children - their biological fathers.

Turkey basters - welcome to the Brave New World of test-tube babies and male 'sperm donors' aka FATHERS. Let's Flip a coin - heads it's gender feminists, tails it's da Taliban. Please, all male-bashers [misandroists] volunteer to fight in Afghanistan! Yes, it is your patriotic duty as Daughters of Bilitis of the Wiccan Church! That's where your enemy and oppressors-in-kindred spirit are truly in power. Maybe You, too, can be the next Indira Gandhi or Catherine da Great, or Madame Mao, or Golda Meir, or any of the other corrupt women terrorists or ruthless dictators of history. as for da poor refugees and peasants? 'Let them eat cake!' chortled the kinder and gentler Queen Marie Antoinette. 'Off with her head,' Elizabeth I ordering the execution of her cousin, Mary Queen of Scots.

now, 'equity feminism' is a different matter... or rather, how 'bout some 'equity humanism'...

lessee: which gender has sacrificed millions of its kind defending the homeland, is the victim of 99% of all work-related fatalies [more hazardous jobs], invented da car, da computer, da airplane, discovered penicillin, devised da artificial heart, created ballet, sonnet writing, created plays/drama, da university, da printing press, birth control pills, radio, television, telephone, DVD and CD players, electric lights, refrigerator, sewing machine, hydro-electric dams, coffeemaker, the brassiere, engines, wrote 9 symphonies, are responsible for 98% of all patents/inventions, who devised democracry, da bill of rights, voted to give women the right to vote, has supported families for aeons, has paid spousal alimony/child support for generations, and who have invented the internet etc. etc. etc. uh....

Attention: any and all women who denounce and hate men, please, show some integrity -- and stop using all male-crated inventions and institutions, including the written word, computers, and da internet. Please, don't use hated male sperm for your babies; yeah, try creating babies without any hated male genes. [No self-respecting male in the world should give sperm anonymously to a sperm bank, which is one of the medical profession's biggest money rackets, a racket which also legally disempowers the biological fathers and their unfortunate children.]

'I happen to have educated myself about oppression of women and children across this world over the centuries.' ok - Yeah well, me, too, and the very term 'oppression of women and children' is blatantly politically loaded with the self-righteous accusing finger pointed unfairly at all men, as a stereotyped group. that expression conjures up distinct imagery - shades of dat rote male-bashing women's studies incultcation, feminist national socialist political agenda, selective sexist propaganda and deductive slanted methodology, and their oft-fabricated stats and lies [i.e. Super Bowl Sunday is the day when more men abuse women' - just one of many widely-repeated proven lies, in this case the fabrication of a dishonest lesbian gender feminist cult fanatic named Tess Wiseheart] -- NOW dat's a cult, too, btw. In fact, I witnessed dat particular fanatical and discriminatory cult in operation on the job almost daily in higher education, until retiring.

Yep, gender feminism and male-bashing is a cult. [not equity feminism]

yeah, I was routinely brutalized, too. But, do I hate and sterotype women, as a whole - who, frankly, from my own personal experience have been the primary 'terrorists' and 'oppressors of men and children'? NO.

Y'know, a lil' education can be a dangerous thing, especially when one is insidiously indoctrinated with a polarizing, subjective, falsified, discriminatory, skewered perspective and bully political agenda.

Peace and lentils,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 12:45:57 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Such....
Message:
Dear Such,

After reading your post, I can't add anything. One of my shortcomings is that I fall into a mindset of globalizing my feelings and thoughts about my personal suppression--actually globalize them.

I am so sorry you experienced so much pain at the hands of your parents and women in your life. No one deserves that. It's my point. Violence does begin at home, in school, in church...

I believe that where we come from, girl or boy, has so much to do with how we view the world. Isn't it obvious I'm feeling a bit confused? Terrorized?

I think the word feminist or feminism or womanism is too broad a term, as Abi says below...it generalizes so many factions of ideologies. I don't know where I fit in that respect.

Btw, I don't like the PC stuff about women. I abhor the language alterations such as herstory, for instance. That feels cultish for me.

I think what it all boils down to for me is that I was watching the WTC being hit, twice, and collapsing, all live tv, while trying to process the fact that the previous Friday, while my husband was away in Flordia, a best friend make physical, and inappropriate sexual advances to me that sent me reeling, and the fact that I live in a new place, and not being able to call long distance, all contributed to my tendency to dissociate too much. Add to that that my father has been stalking my sisters and demanding to have my phone number, I've been a mess.

So I took a break, but I still read here. Believe it or not, I am very affected by the moon phases. I think if I went back, all my tantrums on the board probably coincide with a full moon, which recently passed. May be new age bullshit, but it seems to happen to me.

An excuse for being abusive? Never. Reasons? Yes. I don't believe everything I posted was abusive. I just didn't make the points with evidence, as required by the scientists here. I didn't think the forum was a college classroom. In one thread last week about politics, someone posted ''you're out of your league here,'' meaning the discussion was too high-brow for the under-educated. Click.

I believe that women and men need to work toward a balance of power, in the home, workplace and in governing. Women are half the population after all. I've had many experiences of sexism in the workplace, especially when I worked in administration in the large insurance companies in Hartford. I do have strong feelings and thoughts about the orgins of the general loss of power by women in the world. I don't believe in castration of males who are sex offenders--it wouldn't work to stop them anyway, but it would be tantamount to execution IMO. I don't believe all men are bad, and I've said that. I don't hate men.

I wasn't going to post again, but you are really mad about this and I wanted to respond. Again, you are coming from the opposite end of the spectrum, being abused by women. Do you really think I condone any of that? If you do, then you don't know me at all.

No one deserves to be hurt men, women or children. I don't know what else to say...

Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 16:18:20 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: internalized trauma shame; commonality; empathy
Message:
a long time ago, for the sake of survival, a helpless child internalized dat abuse -- da silent, secret shame and pain which a man can not feel free or safe to share or discuss in comfort in our society. So, the traumas of that longterm abuse become internalized, and without resolve, strength, and effort - and accompanying personal growth and holistic recovery - the victim may suffer in silent shame and emotional alienation for a lifetime.

Take back the night - and our days, as well. And rejoice in the constructive and healing power within each of us, as an individual, and collectively as one energy, one race of empathetic co-existing beings [among many], with both shared tears and extended hands.

All of us, male and female, share similar genetic bio-chemistry, in varying aspects and different proportions. We are all combinations of each other, all interrelated as a species, all descended from the same ancestral family anthropologically, and conceived by the paired communion of male/female energy and its counterpart material forms.

And there is much to appreciate in the conjunction of mutual respect and empathy -- and to wonder at the uniqueness of each human being, too -- and to learn from and enjoy the scenario of creation unfolding in the play of conscious beings.

Vive la difference!

Peace and lentils,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 04:19:43 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: Draft gender feminists' cult 2 fight Taliban!
Message:
wow, that's pretty heavy. I feel I have to say something. Sadly there are a lot of women within universities who have had very bad experiences with men. Also a lot of women who have had very bad experiences with abusive partners, fathers. I know what you mean about the fundamentalists though, I've certainly come across a few at universities - but they are of both genders.

Not sure what you mean by 'gender feminism'? There are so many forms of feminism, cultural feminism, marxist feminism, socialist feminism, eco-feminism, egalitarian feminism, liberal feminism, radical feminism, postmodern feminism, not to mention the the complexities of Third World feminism.
And there are lots of factional disputes going on within feminism all the time just as there are in any discipline or ideology. Feminists aren't by and large a cultish group hell bent on revenge against the male sex. Pity that feminism has become an F word.

Also not sure about you claiming that men invented all the things you said they did. You seem to also be rubbishing feminist methodologies and research. Sure, some of it is questionable but so is a lot of other research in the social sciences, humanities, etc. Having been around academic men and women, lots of whom are feminists, for the last ten years I am familiar with these arguments. They get very heated and hateful. And petty too.

Peace and lentils and compassion for others suffering.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 17:04:42 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: equality, humanism vs. Animal Farm
Message:
'equity feminism': equal rights, opportunities. Yep.

national socialist 'gender feminism': radical, college and socialist-based, everything about womyn good, men bad, every man a rapist or abuser [Dworkin], empower womyn at the expense of men, politically correct feminists should not consort with the hated males, rather womyn loving womyn, men consigned to drones, lackies and sperm bank donors, womyn's rituals/religion, magic, rewrite herstory - every womyn a martyr, every male authority figure an oppressor pig, push feminist socialist theory, womyn's studies departments, womyn's exclusive clubs, womyn networking exclusively with womyn professionally, womyn preferring womyn in hiring, womyn cronies indoctrinating girls in feminist studies/politically correct theory/ gender alienation, womyn taking control, in top positions of power, using dat power, misdirecting dat power, abusing dat power, reverse discrimination/sexism/chauvinism, abusing dat power... Old Girls' Network and professional associations, AAUW, NOW, Bilitis, Womyn ONLY, Men need NOT apply, push welfare and benefits and social services just for womyn and children, only womyn's health concerns, promote only womyn's rights, womyn-centered, donate only to womyn's organizations/foundations, ridicule male figures/authorities, emphasize only womyn's art, womyn's music, womyn's sports, womyn's media, etc. -- in other words, da femi-nazis that people like Hannity and Rush Limburger cite when cutting da cheese...

end of subject. Ciao.

P+L,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 21:51:50 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: equality, humanism vs. Animal Farm
Message:
Just to prove to you that I really do care about what you are saying here, you can check out my article 'Not Woman Enough: Irigaray and the Culture of Difference' which is coming out in Feminist Theory in Nov this year. (Should be on-line) I argue against separatist fudamentalism and call for a postmodern egalitarianism.

bye

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 06, 2001 at 15:20:39 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: bingo! Great!
Message:
yeah, I abhor apartheid and fundamentalism, whether radical political, social, and/or religious. also, oppression of any people sucks.

one living planet with living beings - and those with evolving self-consciousness coming to understand and promote the imperative of an awakening, empathetic peaceful cooperative synergistic egalitarian co-existence.

Peace and lentils,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 07:55:01 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: RAWA
Message:
The most widespread opposition in Afghanistan is mounted by RAWA -- unlike the other factions that the West wants to arm to fight the war on 'our' behalf, RAWA is not a gang of fundamentalist thugs.

If you can stomach it, please read the report I have linked to, and the rest of the RAWA site.
[ Some reports of crimes ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 00:03:05 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Autumn in Vermont
Message:
Hi Cynthia,
quite a post.
I have come to really like you and feel I know you so much more now than before when you were singing like an angel in the band and spouting guru gibberish like us all in satsang.

I havent read the posts in the thread yet that responded to your post although I bet they are great.

Is there any chance you can avoid the media onslaught covering this? I have tried to limit myself to just before I leave for work I watch msnbc with the sound off and just read the sentences they have scrolling down at the bottom.
If this whole deal has a bright side, a lot of women are looking at an improved future because the cleric run countries are looking like they have a shorter life span.
I play with the kids more.
THEY dont want to talk about it, they want to have fun and do stuff.
I recall that my father and his drunken buddies would spend endless hours fighting the communist threat with thier opinions with each other in discussion.
I dont want to do that.
They were wrong,and powerless anyway, and now dead and they missed time with thier kids, me namely, and I was fun I bet, but they didnt know that.
I eat only cheese from your state, and eggs also.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 16:36:51 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: BIG WORDS
Message:
yeah, I hear you.

I agree with what you voiced here.
Take care.

Silvia, to simple to be taken 'seriously' ....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:47:44 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: My Response...
Message:
First I want to clear up the ''nuke'' statement I made. If anyone here really knew me they'd know I was being sarcastic. I won't even allow a gun in my home and we've got bears (not in the home, outside). I think the use by anyone or country of nuclear or ANY weapons against any humans is unconscionable. Yes children die every day from hunger, abuse and neglect, landmines, you name it...all over the world.

I don't have any children and the situation in today's world is why. I chose not to have children because the world is already over-populated and figured if I really needed a child to love I could always adopt.

The points I made in my post were mostly ignored. What I was trying to convey overall is that because I know what it feels like to live in terror for almost 2 decades, albeit in one small home, that the feeling of terror is something you could learn about from me. I know what it's like to be a prisoner as a child. Ignored.

I have posted views slanted toward my belief that men have done a lousy job controlling this world and have been dissed, not every time, but a lot. I've been told my feminist ideology is cultic thinking.

I've made statements on many occasions, not just about the WTC attack, but on other issues, and have been ignored, only to see later that someone, usually one of the guys, after 50 gillion words of writing, has come up with the same, simple conclusion I had made. It has made me feel demeaned. This has been done here...and when such conclusion has been made you guys all pat eachother on the backs while I smile behind my keyboard in disbelief that missed my statements days and weeks before.

I stopped watching a lot of tv the on September 11th. I was posting here because I had no other way of communicating with anyone, the long distance lines were dead. So I just had to talk to someone about what was going on.

My statement about my mother's inability to rescue her daughters from my terrorist's reign was an attempt to explain to Jim why the Afghanistan women don't stop their sons from throwing rocks. What the hell are they supposed to do? Take away their supper? What supper, do they even have supper? It's about the suppression of women and also the indoctrination of women by the male centered religious fanatics that renders them helpless. How can I compare world events with home events? Because violence begins at home. Not every home, but many.

Religions are male centered. Look at the overpopulation of the world because of strict Roman Catholic rules against birth control. You've got the pope, and all men dictating to women about their bodies. Then there's Isreal where fighting has been going on for decades. England and Ireland. Do you really think that the women like this shit going on in their little worlds? Do they have any power to stop it? Obviously not, because things are only getting worse.

We don't chose what gender we are born with. I don't blame all men for all bad things. That's why the reaction to feminist views here by the guys has been astonishing me.

My ''Fuck You'' abusive post to Dermot was in reaction to being blamed for starting the political posts on 9/11/01, in a thread that was getting ridiculously long about ''when do we stop talking about politics.'' Well, duh, is all I have to say. You choose. That's when. No excuse, though and apologies go out to Dermot.

This will be my last post for a while. I'm just not interested in this place right now. I've been thinking about it a lot. Whenever something major happens in our country and the media turns our attention away from the other issues of import, especially legislative work being sneaked through....I believe the same thing is probably happening with EV/M. While the discussions here are both bright and dull, I wonder what new acquisition Maharaji has made while the world's problems are being solved here.

Whatever. I stand by my feminist views. Like I said, taking a break was good and I need more. Also, if something big does hit the fan, and folks start heading north for shelter (with winter coming soon) I'll be busy. I hope not. Truly. But I am pessimistic about the future.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 00:38:58 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: My Response...
Message:
You remind me of why when someone says to me 'god is all loving' or something similar, I say, ah, evidence says otherwise.

No argument from me to the points you have made for a long time.
I remind myself over and over that 'I give up'. I dont expect anyone around me to attain any consistant good behaviour. I figure we were made this way because it allowed for the maximum amount of control of us by the god thingee in spite of our free will.

In spite of it all, my fall back position, my default setting, is
that I choose to cop to the love or like of those around my in spite of what they say or do.
Up to a limit of course. But I allow a big limit. And no one around me is pushing quite that far.
Womans rights have come a long way. Too bad they add female hormones to all the meat foods in America however, I do think it is harming the women. Effecting thier moods.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 21:28:22 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Is a sponge the opposite of a spring?
Message:
Cynthia:

There is no 'moral' advantage to being of one sex rather than the other. If women had the power that men have, they'd be just as evil and abusive, so it's really a matter of opportunity and probably a preference for different kinds of crime and different sensitivities. Women are more cruel to strangers than men, but it's not because women are inherently more cruel. It's because of the role they play in the partnership. I've seen lots of very bad research attempting to prove some sort of moral superiority for women, which simply tells me that there's an audience for such views and someone willing to pander to it.

As for being ignored, I'm ignored most of the time. Most people who post here will tell you the same thing. I just post a helluvalot, so something's bound to stick once in awhile. Jim has the knack of coming up with provocative subject lines.

My grandfather came up with the idea of the utility knife 20 years before it was re-invented and manufactured by someone else. He never felt he was cheated, because to communicate and support a new idea requires more than just tinkering and voicing it to a few friends. He knew that. Not that this explains your situation necessarily, because frankly you didn't give an example, so I don't really know what you mean. Just a guess. I'm sure someone had the idea that the sun was the center of the planetary system long before copernicus put it out there. Chances are that someone was a woman churning butter on a hot day.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:57:05 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The women's war
Message:
Of all the Taliban's many enemies, few oppose them with such bitter passion as the women of Afghanistan, whose place in society is now scarcely higher than that of animals. But some, reports Raymond Whitaker, have taken their lives in their hands to fight for their rights.
[ The women's war ]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:42:26 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: My Response...no sweat.
Message:
Hi Cynthia

Thanks for the apology and I sincerely apologise to you too for reacting.

Believe it or not, I can relate to your general expression of views as you've laid out in your posts. Apart from the odd one here and there, though, such as nuking :)

Anyway, enjoy your break ....I'm having a break too.

...and watch those bears ...though I've heard they're not always agrressive especially if left to do their own thing :)

Cheers

Dermot

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:25:04 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: look after yourself
Message:
there is nothing to fear except fear itself

at least that's what I tell myself when I'm totally freaked!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:54:19 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: this male dominated forum--
Message:
I must step up and stand beside cynthia and tell you guys, some of you really are a bunch of pompous, self important blowhards! You truly DO completely miss, pass over, ignore, not pay attention, shrug at, and in numerous other ways, stonewall the voices of the feminine that speak to this assemblage.

is it your egos? is it density? what gets your attention?
why is it that you get into such rugged, horns-locked contesting and debate and rebuttal with the other men, here, and when a woman has something to say, you go right on as if she had'nt spoken at all?

you men need to check yourselves on this, and make more deliberate effort to really hear, really comprehend, what one of us is saying when we lob our commentary into the ring. we all speak english. we all have brains and discernment.

I have had the idential experience that cyn is describing. I have spoken plainly here about various things, and gotten zero reaction, and then weeks or months later, lived to see one of the men reach the same conclusion as if it had never been put forth before.

can you men really afford to be so tardy and dense in your arrival at the understanding? wouldnt it considerably sharpen your advantage to recognize early information from a reliable source, and heed it the first time you caught it?
that kind of wasted time, catching up to the early ones, is expensive.

I would think you would jump at the chance to see the picture ASAP.

We keep telling it to you. And you keep tuning us out. To your--and to our--detriment.

you wanna try running the world without us?? I mean, if you insist on treating us as invisible, we can leave.
come on--put yourself in that reality. a world without women. forever.

even you gay men would be in tears.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 03:14:18 (EDT)
From: such
Email: nobananas@pinkoystercult.org
To: janet
Subject: correction: this stereotyper-dominated forum
Message:
re stereotyping

'you guys'

'you men'

'your egos'

'density'

'you men'

'I would think you would jump at the chance to see the picture ASAP.
We keep telling it to you. And you keep tuning us out. To your--and to our--detriment.'

Yep, this sweeping stereotyper-dominated forum.

On da udder hand, I have personally tried to stick up for da women here and, in a number of instances, even took some of da nastier and gnarlier dudes to task fer being ungentlemanly to da wackier [er, allegedly weaker] sex.

btw, Janet, I have frequently seen my words and ideas repeated and rephrased here by others, too, without attribution. Welcome to da club - It's a forum, after all. people forget, and the wheel keeps getting reinvented. hey, Whatever helps contribute to the greater good here... There are proprietary websites out there, of course. So, maybe append a copyright notice to your prized posts, i dunno...

P+L,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:54:00 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Look Janet
Message:
The forum is dominated by males because we're superior and women should stick to their crochet and recipes; there's plenty of crochet websites on the net.

Computers and politics are for men, real men and women can't possibly begin to understand the complexities of the political world. And of course, Janet, men cannot run the world without women. There'd be nobody to wash the clothes and do the ironing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:45:34 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Look again
Message:
hey dave:

you poor things. that itty bitty missing piece of chromosome on your Y gene must make you feel so selfconscious. no wonder you fellows are always strutting and roaring. you're hoping no one will notice you're missing a part.
it's a good thing we remembered to bring it along.
(_I_)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:42:37 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: this male dominated forum--
Message:
I think you make some valid points here, Janet. Although I don't think it matters so terribly much, what I think. But most of us men here are relatively powerless about anything we're talking about, and mostly being entertained, educated and stroking our egos (some more than others).

Men are particularly bad at responding to personal complaints or being asked to behave differently. And although there's an emotional component women seem to have, that men can barely grasp, it's more essential to personal growth than a discussion of the current terrorist problem. The emotional component is relevant in a very long-term sense, to the current terrorist situation and almost everything else. And because of that, it isn't immediate or urgent in the way a bomb is.

And the men and women who do have power in the current world sitation are the very worse of what men are.

I don't want to insult Cynthia because I've found her make alot of sense at other times, I found her post at the top of this thread to be ranting and erratic and self-indulgent.

Perhaps you're putting too much value on men and their perspective. If were just obsessively masterbating our intellects in a closed circle, you can still say what you want and need to say. Many times I post and no one answers. I feel hurt or ignored or undervalued, but then I realize there's nothing I can do about that, and that it's more important to say what I have to say than sulk about the results.

Also, if men can lay around expounding with each other in a relatively useless way, and women actually have things to offer, they can start and continue their own threads. What's this thing about taking your ball, leaving the playground and going home. If women have confidence in what they're saying, just say it. Say it to each other, say it to the men, and keep saying it. More than anything else, I think many posts have alot of effect here that never get responded to. We just don't always get to know which posts those are.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:58:57 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Not true Rick
Message:
Rick wrote:

''And although there's an emotional component women seem to have, that men can barely grasp''

To be serious, this is offensive to men and extremely sexist. Not to mention untrue.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:28:15 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Not true Rick
Message:
Definitely it's offensive; pointing out a big deficiency is hard to take. But it doesn't have to be that way. It's conditioning, mostly, that can be changed if desired.

True? Well, it's hard to prove but a case can easily be made that traditionally men have done the hunting and inventing, and women have done the nurturing and feeling. Do women know more about feeling and expressing feelings? And know more about being intuitive? I think so.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:56:40 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Blatant stereotyping
Message:
Neither men nor women are deficient. There is no big deficiency between men and women. I see a big deficiency in generalising about men and women in this way though. I guess this is the PC way in America - tell men they are deficient and must get in touch with their female side. What a load of bollocks.

Women are fine as they are and so are men, in the main. Men are just as caring and emotional as women are supposed to be, just as women can be just as tough and assertive as the supposed male role.

It's all crap though, this male/female role thing. However, the more people want to see the world in such terms, the more credence it gives to the belief.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 21:41:41 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The stereotypes are true.
Message:
Dave:

Women are, on average, shorter and lighter and for some peculiar reason can balance better reaching forward. There are other differences too, but it all balances out. I mean, we all know that intuitively so the only thing that could convince us otherwise is some burning need to feel inferior or superior. I've been trying to find a woman who won't treat me like a space alien for most of my life. Go figure.

--Scott 'not personally responsible for any crop circles' T.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 21:58:00 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Then the logical conclusion is
Message:
that women have got bigger arses than men. Either that or their legs are thicker in relation to height.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 00:50:02 (EDT)
From: Francesca :P
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Every one of us makes this place
Message:
... what it is. Just ignore it. And if you don't want to, and I don't see you here, I'll e-mail you so we don't lose touch!

Love, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:59:52 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: long live feminism!
Message:
Loved your post Cynthia.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 05:47:39 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: To the forum Ladies
Message:
As I have been the main one in dispute with Cynthia, would you mind if I try to explain the background and chronology here or would that be a tad too rational and unemotional?

I'd prefer to point you to some relevant posts to be able to defend myself completely but for some weird reason Gerry has deleted them. I guess its in line with the current 'anti free speech' climate as described in the link I posted in my thanks to Nige post.

Gerry also was quick to assure Cynthia that her heartfelt posts are always welcome here including , I guess, her ORIGINAL abusive post to me in particular and all men in general. By default I assume my posts are not welcome.

So ….1. I posted two little posts, one to Carl and one to Cynthia in response to their replies to PAT C. Carls point was that we were all blowhards and Cynthias was that (mainly us men here) just had no feeling. That all the political posting was a load of crap and anyway she doesn't have a degree in either history or politics.

I responded to her , not at all rudely or impolitely, that she started the political posting from day one as she was , quite understandably, (and I did say 'quite understandably' ) upset by the turn of events. I also pointed out that I don't have a history or politics degree but was just posting as a human being trying to understand.

2. Her response including her 'fuck offs' 'unfeeling men' 'I back the Canadian feminists' ' more fuck offs' 'your full of bullshit' 'Self righteousness' etc etc etc etc . In short her post was not only completely out of proportion to my original post to her and completely full of emotional crap. But hey ladies, that's ok isn't it? I mean she was only replying to a MAN. Why should she not be emotional and abusive huh?

3.I then replied with a short a post and admit I lost it. It was irrational and emotional. Now that ISN'T all right is it ladies? I mean I'm a man responding to a WOMAN. See the double standards in play here? Or maybe you don't. Whatever. I said to her in response ' Fuck you too' and 'Take your loopy fucking feminism and take it to some weird feminist cult meeting'. Not very nice I know. No excuse really but as I say it was an emotional response to an abusive emotional post.Actually, any women who actually KNOW me , also know I'm not really anti-feminist and ideed Cynthia and I have spoken in the past (more rationally) and reached agreement on the subject.

4. I then wrote my leaving post shortly after (still annoyed at her out and out RUDENESS and also upset by the continual 'anti American ' accusatory tone of the forum as a whole. So what do I say? 'Loopy feminist on one side and ultra-pax Americanas on the other'. But hey I'm not only a MAN , I'm not AMERICAN so I really don't have much legitimacy here ,according to some ,it seems.

5. In another rant from this great, loving rational feminist she then decides to protect her AMERICAN kids. It would be ok to NUKE some part of the planet. Presumably the fact that probably hundreds of thousands NON AMERICAN children would suffer as a result…….who cares eh? Again she's a woman so you all accept this irrational emotional outburst? Only MOLEY to her credit spoke against it. Of course Scott explained it all away. I wonder if he or anyone else would have explained away a post calling for someone to NUKE AMERICAN CHILDREN????? YOU TELL ME.

Nota single person has bothered to post saying they thought Cynthias ORIGINAL post to me was disproportionate and uncalled for. Do 'feminists' protaganists have carte blance to post rude posts to a particular man or men in general? I guess so huh? Woe betide a reverse role situ though eh?

According to Gerry her 'heartfelt ' posts are 'always' welcome. I never found her post to me 'welcome' Gerry. Francesca assures cynthia she'll email her. I hope not to say he deserved it…how dare he bother to think, feel and post political posts……he's a man. No , I don't think so Fran but I hope I'm not wrong about that. Abi also supports 'feminists'. What , no matter if they are just out and out, unjustifiably rude? Or is it ok because she was rude to a MAN ?

Actually , I'm just clearing up loose ends here. I stand by my 'leaving' post . I really don't feel welcome here …..from the FA it seems, the feminists or the Americans. That's cool , I can live with it, don't worry about that.
I think the whole tone is now partisan, emotional and anti-free speech. I'm quite attached to free speech for some reason and when it is freely spoken it's usually best to have rational, non-emotional responses to the speech. When it is PREDOMINANTLY irrational and emotional then it gets too much. Of course I'm not proposing we all become unfeeling robots or anything but balance is important. The balance has gone here IMO. There's 'n undercurrent that I find disturbing. Maybe I'm a' weirdo , out of step with the 'majority think' mode. So be it.

I can say though, I've lost any sense of generally belonging to the 'expremie ' community. I never did consider it a cult-like community and I'm certain it isn't. Nevertheless, even as a loose gathering of like minded folks, I feel estranged from it. I really DON'T belong here. From now on I'm not going to think in terms of 'ex' 'prem' 'non-prem'……I'm going to relate to people as individuals. I'm sure there are open minded individuals in all camps and narrow-minded bigots in all camps. I actually really knew that but these last few weeks have brought it to the forefront.

From now on I will respond purely INDIVIDUALLY whether one day I'm in a majority and another in a minority , will be the last of my concerns. What's that saying?

TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE.

Cheers

Dermot

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 19:28:53 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: To the forum Ladies
Message:
All your points are rock-solid, except for two. First, there's as many people here being implicated as anti-american as there are people doing the implicating, so you're not in a minority. Second, recognizing the programming of cult members is intrinsic to this forum's purpose. Although cult members are individuals, they've chosen to ignore that in an important way. To overlook or ignore that doesn't unfetter you. It's just a rough fact of life we have to face.

Oh, and thirdly, I hope you don't leave.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:29:50 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: To the forum
Message:
for what it's worth, Dermot, I know exactly what you are sensing, because it's all over the place, these days. I, too, am seeing it transparently. And I, too, am rearing and bucking at all the politically correct self censorship closing in. No way am I gonna let anyone step on my rights to free speech. I am me. it is quite impossible for me to be other than what I am. I have to say what i see, what i think, what i sense, what i know. If it doesnt sit well with the hearer, they had better remind themselves that by defending my right to say it and do it, I defend their rights at the same time.

I can see the urge to turn and walk out. But that leaves the arena barren of the very thing that right is there to ensure.
I was hoping you would stand on your views and say more. It keeps the vitality alive.

for what it's worth, you aren't gonna see me going out and buying any american flags. I'm sick at the sight of them all. yesterday i went into a car dealership on main street and demanded an audience with the top man, and when i got him, i took him out front and pointed out the seven threadbare, soiled, tattered, torn,ancient american flags they had, flying over their garage, and gave him a stern lesson in the Respect For The Flag that I learned at age 6 in brownie scouts:
the flag is never to touch the ground.
The flag is never to be flown at night, after dark.. Not unless it is brightly lit. if it cannot be, it is lowered at sundown, folded meticulously, and stored with all care. In military camp, taps is sounded.
the flag is never to be flown soiled, torn,rent,faded or in any other way desecrated. It is to be flown clean, intact, in full repair and in full colors, or not at all.

a flag no longer fit to be flown is not to be chucked in the trash like common garbage. The correct disposal for a flag being retired is to lower it from the staff, fold it properly, lay it in a fresh fire and salute it until it has burned completely to ashes, and then what is left is to be laid in the ground and buried with as much honor as if a great general were being laid to rest,

because the white stripes of that flag represent the bandages hastily torn and used to bind the bleeding wounds of soldiers in the field, and the red stripes represent the blood soaked bandages they generated while they fought, through the pain, and the blue field with white stars represent a land of true freedom, with nothing over anyone but the heavens above and the stars therein. When you lay that flag to rest, you are laying to rest all and every soldier and civilian who ever fought and bled to defend that freedom, and so you honor it as you do any person who did so.

i told the fellow 'take them down. better to fly nothing at all, or one sound, new, bright,fresh flag, than seven desecrated ones.'

he hastened to say 'new ones have been ordered'.
I still repeated to him 'take those down, today, before sunset. to leave them as you have them is tantamount to stringing them up by nooses and leaving them twisting in the wind for all to sneer at. take them down. Better to have the poles empty until the new ones arrive. Better to have one good one than seven dead ones.'

and he gulped.

I burned a flag once, during the uproar in the 80's over it. I wanted to see for myself what i felt.
guess what. tears came to my eyes. I reached out with my bare hands and put the flames out.

but you wont see me buying any, or wearing any, or hanging any.

i know too much. i refuse to be swept up in the fad. i frown on all these people sporting little plastic favors. I frown at all the flags getting lacerated as they get ripped thru the car airstream at 70mph down the freeway. How cheap. How ignorant. How unaware these so called patriots are.

no. you wont be seeing me do that. they are late to the game. I knew this stuff 46 years ago and i still know it. and they don't.

i'd rather wear bloody bandages and sleep under the open stars.

i've always been someone who didnt fit in. groups dont like me. i usually end up with one forming around me, instead. not that i want one there.

theres just one of me, and im it. i dont know how to be anyone else than me. and since i'[m the only one of me in existence, theres no comparison. if you want me, you gotta come to me for it.

right?

are you any different?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:52:21 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: To the forum..Yo Janet
Message:
Hi

Thanks for your long post.

Your posts are often controversial and usually really interesting. The odd post of yours is actually BRILLIANT. The one I remember most is the long 'night cafe /catweasel (?) ' themed one of a few months back.

Other times, I find I don't go along with a lot of what you say. No problem in that.

It's good your peculiarly individual voice is here though and I'm sure many respect your insights and basic 'guts'.

Cheers

Dermot

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:53:46 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: To the forum Ladies
Message:
Dermot, I didn't delete any posts. I 'locked' some threads, that's all. Everything is still there.

I relate to Cynthia. She had a nightmare childhood and so did I but not to the extent that she did. So I tend to cut her more slack because I see myself in her emotionality and immediacy.

I wish you would stay. I stopped reading the political threads days ago, but from what little I read before then, I would probably take your side on many issues. Let me say that with a bit of reserve because I haven't read the threads and don't intend to do so.

I don't think you are a 'weirdo' or even out of step. I'm sure many people share your opinion. You were valiant to hang in as long as you did against the 'professional' debaters. This is not intended as a pejurative against anyone, but I realized early on that even though I truly believe I am more correct in my world view than say, Scott or Jim, I don't have nearly their skills in debating and exposition.

I am very sympathetic to feminism and I think that rudeness can come from anyone regardless of their beliefs. And occasional rudeness and shows of strong emotions doesn't necessarily mean the person is rude and overly emotional at the core. It's more situational.

And I'll stopped now with the idea that Scott voice several days ago: I believe this all has more to do with the fact of thousands of bodies buried in a hole in NYC, than ideology.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 14:45:32 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: No problem Gerry
Message:
I,ve got everything off my chest and you always were (are) one of my fav posters. A sort of intelligent, insightful madness :)

And yeah good for you for relating to Cybthia ...no problem.

Cheers

Dermot

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:17:38 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: oh dear..
Message:
had no idea that exchange had taken place. How messy. Sounds unpleasant for all.

I'm a feminist and I don't hate men. I think the man hating feminist stereotype went out in the 70s didn't it? Feminism, like any other ideology or way of seeing the world is made up of lots of different people with lots of different points of view.

We're all emotional and messy at times. Let's be kind to one another.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:36:26 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: oh dear..Yep, you're right Abi
Message:
...I just wanted to state my case. Unpleasant for both sides, yep you're right.

Time to forgive, forget and move on I guess.

Cheers

Dermot

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 21:47:32 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The terror is over-done
Message:
There's more chance of winning the lottery than being killed or even injured by terrorists. America is experiencing mass hysteria and I blame the mass media for that. The terrorists are not that bright or well equipped. The reason why the September 11th atrocities were able to happen was because there was extremely lax airport security in the USA.

The terrorists can't make chemical or biological weapons that can affect cities - more like just a closed government building at the most.

There is not going to be a world war. Can't you read the signs of the times? The world has no stomach for it. More likely the world will become a more co-operative enviroment with old grudges forgotten and new alliances forged. Look at old Putin. He's wanting to have friendly talks with NATO and doesn't see them as the threat any more.

George W has indicated that the Palestinian/Israeli problem must now be solved once and for all and for good reason. I think you'll soon see that the nightmare that the mass media perpetrate just isn't going to happen. Don't bother to buy one of those chemical suits, it just wouldn't suit you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 03:22:12 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: ok, caca.org terror was over-done [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:40:18 (EDT)
From: Vera
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The terror is under-done if anything
Message:
Sir Dave said:

'The terrorists can't make chemical or biological weapons that can affect cities - more like just a closed government building at the most.

There is not going to be a world war.'

With all respect, UBL's al Queda network, and those networks affiliated with it, have quite likely got access to chemical weapons, and have definitely researched how to deliver them to cities. It's been officially acknowledged that only one such an attack could wipe out a million people - I'll dredge my memory banks for the reference if you want one.

Re your point 2: the world war has begun - indeed it began, you could say, when UBL declared war on the US, formally and in writing, in 1996. The declaration is on his website still.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings: but I fear this one will be with us till the end of our lives - maybe the end of our children's lives too.

Vera

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 15:22:08 (EDT)
From: YIKES
Email: None
To: Vera
Subject: Typhoid Vera?
Message:
Really Vera, you are to bad news what Typhoid Mary was to Typhoid!

Seriously though, can you provide any links to your information sources? Would be interested to know. Thanks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 22:36:11 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Vera
Subject: I'm afraid we'll have to see that cite.
Message:
If Bin Laden has chemical warfare capability, and could kill a million people with one attack, why did he mess around with a piddling 7,000 casualty job? Humanitarianism? No, they've given us their best shot for the time being.

Not that the threat isn't serious, but the cultic mind is flawed... else they'd have seen in the first place that terrorism simply *can't* yield any practical results because of the all or nothing logic it dictates. In other words, if they were dumb enough to buy the basic premise that terrorism is an effective strategy for getting what you want, then they'll make other mistakes...

They're all hunkered down in Afghanistan right now expecting the US to drop on them like a swarm of angry hornets, and meanwhile their troops are getting bored and afraid on the front so quickly, while they want for someone to show up, that they have to be rotated rearward and replaced every week or so or they'd mutiny. Winter is coming on, and we have secure supply lines while they do not. Time is on our side, not theirs. Lots of miscalculations on their part, and it's only just begun. We shouldn't take them for granted, but neither should we overestimate them.

And consider the psychological effect of an American victory in Afghanistan or Iraq if it occurs quickly once the campaign starts. The Russians couldn't do it in decades, and the British were driven out, so there's a legendary quality to an Afghan campaign. A quick decisive American victory would convince much of the belligerent Muslim world that they're better off on our side, and will go a long way toward 'draining the swamp.' And if we play it right Afghanistan will fall like a rotten apple when we pull the string. Let them waste away in their montain caves, and roust them come Spring.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:41:41 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: The terror is over-done
Message:
Yes, Dave, that is the truth but the attack came at a very bad time - just as the economy is taking a heavy fall. The dotcom industry has gone from bad to worse this year and the unemployment rate has shot up. Americans don't sleep enough as it is (6.5 hours average) and now many have insomnia. Sleep clinics are overwhelmed.

Half of Gen X were dotcommies and they can't find jobs. Twelve famous restaurants in SF have closed in the past month. I have to refinance my house to keep going. Office space in downtown SF has a 15% vacancy rate. Tourism is non-existent. (UA is giving away free tickets to NY to try to stimulate the tourism industry.)

People are depressed and the flu vaccines will be late this year. This winter is expected to be very gloomy. America the beautiful, free and happy isn't feeling very cheerful. I guess we will have to take lessons from you Brits on how to be stoical - a word seldom used here except by the Amish.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 23:49:25 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: outbreak
Message:
let's hope dave is right...
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/04/wref04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/04/ixhome.html
[ outbreak ]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:28:44 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: outbreak
Message:
well that just made my day.

anyone here read tom clancy's 'executive orders'.
it plays out exactly like this is. starts with the hijacking of a plane and turning it into a missile that destroys the US capitol bldg, wiping out the supreme court, congress, the president and cabinet.

proceeds to
a muslim doctor in deep africa spiriting away a very sick nurse dissolving of ebola virus to a bunker in a terrorist supporting middle eastern nation. development of ebola as an aerosol and contagious infectant, hidden in shaving cream canisters, to pass customs. ten anonymous arab terrorists booking flights to the US, checking into ten different cities, ten different hotels, going to ten different trade conventions and casually wandering around until they decide on a nice spot in the ventilation system to unobtrusively release the valve on the shaving cream can and leave the show. days later, americans start to get sick. looks like the flu. gets worse. spouses catch it. the cdc figures it out. closes down the nation in quarantine. hospitals overloaded with isolation cases.

all thats left for them to play out, now, is a bunch of assassination attempts on the presidents wife, kids, self.

i wont spoil the ending.

you should read it. there'll be no surprises after you have. you'll already know the script.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 17:43:00 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: outbreak
Message:
Apparently this isn't 'hemorrhagic fever' as we've come to know it (ebola). It isn't communicable except through a vector (a tick). Nasty if you get it, but not much of a terrorist threat.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 13:05:18 (EDT)
From: Here's a Link
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: outbreak
Message:
Good link about this topic.
[ World Health Organization ]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:26:05 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: outbreak
Message:
well that just made my day.

anyone here read tom clancy's 'executive orders'.
it plays out exactly like this is. hijacking of a plane and turning it into a misslie that destroys the US capitol bldg.
a muslim in deep africa spiriting away a nurse dissolving of ebola virus to a bunker in a terrorist supporting middle eastern nation. development of ebola as an aerosol and contagious infectant hidden in shaving cream canisters to pass customs. ten anonymous arab terrorists booking flights to the US, checking into ten different cities, ten different hotels, going to ten different trade conventions and casually wandering around until they decide on a nice spot in the ventilation system to unobtrusively release the valve on the shaving cream can and lever the show. days later, americans start to get sick. looks like the flu. gets worse. spouses catch it. the cdc figures it out. closes down the nation in quarantine. hospitals overloaded with isolation cases.

all thats left is a bunch of assassination attempts on the presidents wife, kids, self.

i wont spoil the ending.

you should read it. there'll be no surprises after you have. you'll already know the script.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:05:56 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: outbreak
Message:
The virus is widely distributed in the blood of sheep, cattle and other mammals across eastern Europe,

Fortunately, not on my list of preferred snacks. From what I've heard hemmorhagic fever doesn't make a very good bio-weapon, because it immobilizes and kills so quickly that it doesn't spread very far. But just in case, I'm only eatin' corn flakes and tofu.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:46:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Scott, give peas a chance
Message:
......or at least cabbages, broccoli and fruit. And brown rice - not enough real vitamins or good fiber in cornflakes and tofu. ;)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:14:00 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Really? Over done?
Message:
You wouldn't say that if you in New York at the time of the trade center bombings.
You wouldn't say that if you saw the incinerated people who survived the Pentagon disaster.
You wouldn't say that if night and day you have F-15's flying over your house.
You wouldn't say that if you saw how your hospital is SCRAMBLING to put in place some disaster response to bio-terriosm.
Just my percpective. Take it or leave it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:48:36 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: No wonder I always fall for nurses
Message:
You're just so damn practical. Tonette. I could just squeeze you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:38:19 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Yes, overdone
Message:
London where I live has been terrorised by IRA bombing campaigns for two decades. We've had some massive bombs go off here. By the way, London is also a target for the Bin Laden terrorists.

The terrorists want you to be afraid. They're amateurs though. They're crap. They got lucky and US intellegence needs to be put through the mill for missing that one. There has been terrorist attempts by them here and they are thwarted every time because they have no proper equipment or resources and leave too many trails.

Look what has happened. People's darkest fears have been realised but it's highly unlikely that the terrorists will ever get that lucky again. Why haven't they followed up with a new attack? Because they're incompetent. Now they've played their ace, which was a once only thing, they're stuck on what to do next.

They tried to crash a light aircraft packed with explosives into the G7/8 summit in Italy a few months ago and failed because they left too many trails and were caught by the Italian police. Sure terrorism is frightening but terrorists by their very nature are a bunch of wankers.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 02:45:12 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Know your enemy and never under-rate them
Message:
I understand your outlook and know that it allows you to rest easy and figure 'what will be will be.'
But I can't see that the terrorists are all that stupid and don't pretend to read their minds as to their future intentions.
Nor do I know their capabilities, who they are in bed with, what they are developing.
But I do know that they have way more money than I can imagine and are extremely well organized. I would call that a great resource. The cells are insidious and merged into society. The Arab next door so to speak.
They are also responding to their 'higher' purpose by carrying out their most noble 'jihad.' Which gives them determination and great purpose.
And my country is so worried about civil liberities, our immigration laws and racial profiling that we are not willing to change the laws that will protect us in the future.
Yes, terrorists leave trails and lots of them. So many in fact, that it appears to me that they don't care at all whether there's a trail or not. Here in the US they did not bother at all to cover their trails.
Oh, there was an Antrax case reported today. A man in Florida, not far from where the Atta group flight trained, came down with a full blown case. Not to worry though, he got it from drinking water from a stream. Odd that the last Antrax case in this country was over 25 years ago. What a silly coincidence.
Take care. Hope the worse thing London has to deal with is a few car bombs.
Tonette
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 10:00:01 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Know your enemy and never under-rate them
Message:
Tonette:

They are very well-trained and I wouldn't underestimate them at all. They are quite capable of adapting to the new circumstances, and the Devil *does* get smarter every day. I just don't think they're invincable or anything, and they make some predictable mistakes and some unpredictable ones. I'm not very confident that we've figured out how to deal with security yet. The Republicans seem to be balking at the idea of setting up a federal government airport protection program, which is a sort of congenital weakness of theirs (they don't trust government to do anything). I don't think you can get reliable security unless it's run by government, but even that doesn't *guarantee* a reliable system. The other thing you have to do is *institutionalize* the response to terrorism, and my gut tells me the Republicans aren't very good at that sort of thing, and they often don't even see the necessity. If Bush fails to deal with this threat and there's another incident (depending on how close it is to the election) he'll be replaced. In my experience Republicans are better at fighting wars than at institutionalizing a complex long term response that addresses a broad range of issues.

In short, the way I look at politics is a little like crop rotation. If you always plant one crop the ground gets 'tired' and productivity slackens, so you have to plant a new crop every once in awhile. Same thing with parties. They both operate off of ideological assumptions that are a little impractical, so the best thing to do is trade parties every once in awhile. I wish they could reform their ideological thinking, but that's a *real* long term process.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:51:15 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Yes, overdone- again I agree
Message:
If a corporation kept asking it's most highly-trained pros to kill themselves they'd be out of business pretty damn soon. Yep, thank god fanatical religious cultists are dumb.

I can't resist this tease, Dave: Just like the CACroaches were dumb but they sure spooked you. Okay, I know it's unfair. They spooked you because of your kids.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:18:42 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Yes, overdone- again I agree
Message:
Right, that's it - bend over and take six of the best. Trouble is, you might enjoy it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 10:24:51 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: Yes, overdone but you do know terror
Message:
Pat's right Dave. You were freaked by the little cyber attack by the cultists.
Maybe you can understand a little better what I see here in my city, what I've seen and what I expect in the future. Give me a web site with a picture of my family and some asshole Maharaji followers any day over what is going on here and in the world.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 02:10:53 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Yes, overdone
Message:
All the same Dave, I don't think a wanker net would make me feel all that safe. You never know when someone might transform into a sly guy, just to slip through the holes in the net.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:04:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Hope so.
Message:
Dave:

I just don't see any hysteria, so am not sure what you perceive as the problem. I'm cautiously optimistic about the future, but it may be a matter of having looked into the abyss and 'got religion.' And I still think that mass terrorism is going to be a continuing problem for awhile, maybe quite awhile. As Alice Cooper says, 'The Devil's gettin' smarter every day.' Is it worse that what came before? How could it be worse than the Holocaust, Stalin's purges, Pol Pot's purges, or Rawanda? If we subside into complacency though, I don't think we'll have seen the worst. And there is still a *national* government out there that's been working on weaponizing these biologicals for some time, in secrecy.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:48:32 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: What I mean by hysteria
Message:
By hysteria I mean fear based upon televised events which though terrible, do not mean that the watcher is in any danger, although they believe they are.

I don't think it's worse than what came before in a global sense. Sure it's terrible if a loved one is killed by a terrorist attack but I can't see this leading to the kind of mass carnage of the two world wars or the million civilians slaughtered in Rawanda.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:50:01 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: What I mean by hysteria
Message:
Several years ago they did a survey in a number of small towns in Iowa to find out what people were concerned about, and the top concern turned out to be 'crime in the streets.' The pollster couldn't quite grasp what was going on so he went back and asked 'What crime; in what streets?' Turns out they were concerned about the crime in the streets of Chicago, because that's what they saw on the news every night.

Anyway, I don't know anyone who's buying any gas masks or digging any bomb shelters, which sounds like stuff that we did in the 50s and 60s. Turns out those bomb shelters were great places for nooky.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:24:10 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Hope so.
Message:
Yes right Scott . One day at a time . When the decision is taken to park SH in the dustbin of history we'll be looking back on these days as halcyon.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:26:38 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Oh please Cynthia...
Message:
I am less educated and articulate than you and I want to post here...don't desert the cause.

Peg

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:56:43 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: My Biggest Mistake Here...
Message:
Cynthia:

I heard an interview of one woman whose little girl was so afraid, she said ''Mama, is there another planet we can go to live on?'' Quite telling, IMO.

Geez. All I can say. Who hasn't felt that way in the past three weeks? But it takes a child to say what the child feels.

Have you seen the cover of Time Magazine? There's a whole article about what products to buy for protection against bio-chemical warfare--and what works and what doesn't.

Well I figure life's not so damn precious that I want to go to those lengths to protect it, especially if it involves living that way indefinitely. Better to leave it to others. I'm really leary of tall buildings though, because I hate the idea of being buried alive. About that idea of starting another planet...

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:00:27 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail,com
To: Cynthia
Subject: What Cynthia!!!!!
Message:
Cynthia, you said I am a proud American. If nuking the whole area wouldn't start WWIII, and destroy the planet, I say, hell, nuke the whole area and that will be that. I am angry and terrorized. I do want revenge.

What area are you talking about for christ-sake?

And, I heard an interview of one woman whose little girl was so afraid, she said ''Mama, is there another planet we can go to live on?'' Quite telling, IMO.

Half a million Afghan die every year before they reach their fifth birthdays.

What are you talking about, You don't sound much like a woman to me.

Moley ( who has 4 children - unfortunately non of them are American).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:24:45 (EDT)
From: maybe
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: if your children WERE americans...
Message:
...you would FEEL what Cynthia is saying, instead of being strictly academic and PC in trying to understand what she said. But then, maybe you and Nigel are just BETTER than the rest of us.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:38:51 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: maybe
Subject: It's not just about Americans
Message:
Apparently the Montreal subway system bomb scare in 1998 has been linked to bin Laden through the Tafir wal Hirja group, along with threats from the World Islamic Front to blow up the Molson Centre during a hockey game, among other places.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:23:30 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: maybe
Subject: Re: if your children WERE americans...
Message:
I don't know who you are. So you think it is 'academic' to object to the 'nuking' of an unspecified area, children 'n all, do you... eh???

Well in that case, I'll side with academia anytime.

FEELING = dropping nukes - yeh - brilliant!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 19:20:30 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: It's academic.
Message:
And, I heard an interview of one woman whose little girl was so afraid, she said ''Mama, is there another planet we can go to live on?'' Quite telling, IMO.

Half a million Afghan die every year before they reach their fifth birthdays.

What are you talking about, You don't sound much like a woman to me.

Cynthia made the observation above in order to describe her helplessness, as best she could. (And a pretty damn good description it was, too.) She broached the subject of wanting to nuke Afghanistan in order do describe her terror (which she pointed out in no uncertain terms).

You've been hanging around the hallowed halls too long if *I* understand the language of feelings better than you.

FEELING = dropping nukes - yeh - brilliant!!!

In academe this is called 'specification error.' Not Cynthia's. Yours. There's a missing dependent variable. Take another look.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:40:32 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Re: if your children WERE americans...
Message:
and I'm with you on this one, Moley.

Hope you're well - the new homeopathic approach I'm following is working more wonders! :)

Anna

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:24:07 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: P.S. It IS About Me and Maharaji... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:42:18 (EDT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I'm deleting this thread
Message:
as long as no-one objects too strenuously. I can't see the benefit and I don't want more hurt feelings here. Now everyone kiss and make up.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:48:21 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Why? Don't you think girls can handle it? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:59:14 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Re: Why? Don't you think girls can handle it?
Message:
No I don't think gifls can handle it. But that really depends on the definition of 'it.' And 'gifls' come to think of it...

But seriously, I have a soft spot for abuse survivors like Cynthia and perhaps I'm being overly protective if not damn near paternalistic.

Is yours a "strenuous" objection?

PS the next day...it was a dumb impulse to want to delete the thread, I'm glad I did not, and I apologize for saying it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:25:09 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot)?
Message:
I hear I have been accused of making a vitriolic anti-American attack on this forum (referring to my Appleyard post below). The claim has been made by Richard on Recent Exes. Since I do not have posting rights on Recent Exes, I will respond here, since I am concerned some people might take Richard's comments at face value without having read my post.

I am not Anti-American. And it pisses me off I should even have to be saying that.

For the record, I am pro-common sense, pro-democracy, pro-universal human rights, pro- the safety and security of innocent civilians everywhere. I am anti the exploitation of the poor by the rich, anti the persecution of minorities, anti one-party communism, anti the uninvited meddling in smaller nations' affairs by their more powerful neighbours (be it from countries on the left or right), anti-dictatorships of the left, right or fundamentalist nutter. Oh - and I am also anti-organised religion, new-age beliefs and creationist thought. Then there's anti-handgun-law, anti-death penalty, anti-royalist and anti the existence of an unelected House of Lords....and anti-pacifist on the grounds that there is indeed such thing as a just war. And I want every guilty member of Bin Laden's terror org to be brought to justice and suitably punished.

Finally motherhood's ok in principle and apple-pie is nice with blackberries and natural yogurt..

But not anti-American. (No more than I am, say, pro- or anti- British, Albanian or Australian). I am even given to believe many Americans hold similar values to those above. I make no secret of my leftish political views but I know there are folk from both left and right who would endorse all or any of the above, just as and I respect the right of people to disagree with me on these.

So, yes, it pisses me off to see people interpreting my critique of Appleyard as America-bashing. Why do they do that? (BTW: My sister holds American citizenship and I have sent two of my kids to Texas on holiday. Why would an anti-American do that?)

I said I would not be posting any more on the Appleyard thread - partly because there are too many posts to reply to and I don't have time, and secondly because I stand by every word in my original post. Let others read the Appleyard article, read my post and the subsequent replies and decide for themselves. Even if I am wrong in places about Appleyard (which I'm not ;-)) I don't think anyone could say there was any Americanophobia there...

(One minor correction/clarification: I said America came into WW2 'late in the second half' - this is not technically accurate - but it is still less inaccurate than implying that the USA won the war single-handed. It is also true the allies would not have won that war without the USA's involvement. I am not questioning that.)

Anyway, here's a quick summary of my points in that thread. Tell me which is America-bashing, if you can…

(1) Brian Appleyard appears to endorse the view that over 90% of the Arab world believes America 'got what it deserved'. I say this is bullshit. In fact, dangerous bullshit in a world-wide publication, given the current crisis. Is this nonsense likely to reduce such anti-American feeling as might exist? Ok, how about anti-Arab feeling in the west? (It is a bit like confidently asserting that 90% of the world's Catholics support the IRA)

(2) He takes a few isolated cases of clear anti-American hostility - including some admittedly disgusting comments from the general public - and uses them to suggest there is an irrational 'Yankophobe' tendency in GB and elsewhere - when in truth the overwhelming reaction to the WTC attack in Britain and Europe in was of horror, anger and empathy for everyone affected, not to mention enormous admiration for the New York fire service etc.

(3) He then attempts to brand certain writers as anti-American: Rosie Boycott, George Monbiot, Suzanne Moore, Gore Vidal and others, providing no sensible evidence to that effect, at times unwarrantedly nasty as well as plain wrong. Of course, all of the people he cites are politically on the liberal/environmental/left - people he would probably find fault with, whatever they said. But none are anti-American, that I am aware of.

Bugger the emotional tone - truth is important. By all means feel emotional – who doesn’t right now? – but beware of the emotive manipulator of those emotions. So if I sounded vitriolic in places, it was not aimed at the American people or its culture - not remotely - but at what I saw as a shoddy piece of, at times inflammatory, journalism with its own agenda, capitalising on the mood of the moment, rather than improving it.

Also, if you read between the lines - and if you know the people he is talking about - you will quickly realise Brian Appleyard is only pro a certain section of American society with a specific political leaning– not all of them/you by any standards. In that respect he is – by his own definition – no more or less anti-American than those he is bad-mouthing. Civil rights protesters are/were Americans too, no?

(What slightly worries me about that ‘anti-American’ tag, is its resemblance to those ‘un-American activities’ invented by the McCarthy commission fifty years back. I am not saying anything like that will happen again, but what goes around, sometimes comes around…?)

Hope that clarifies a few things.

Now where's that hamburger...? :-)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 23:22:01 (EDT)
From: Original Richard
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Richard in this thread is not me
Message:
I have been posting as Richard since January of this year. Not ever on Recent Exes and not much lately here. (Although I'll take credit for a brief appearance as Blonde Gopi #3.)
For clarity and seniority could the mentioned Richard please find another name to use here? Thank you.

Richard who has been Richard since after I was Postie.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 03:59:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Original Richard
Subject: Richard, hypertension ...OT
Message:
I checked out Kavacin and now know what that's for. Have you researched hawthorne for high BP? I am going to try it as the pharmaceutical stuff makes me feel like a zombie.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:53:09 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Original Richard
Subject: Thanks for clarification, Richard
Message:
Yes, I did originally think the RE post might have been from you, and was startled to say the least, but having seen the other Richard in action over here it rapidly became clear it must have been someone else. Sorry if I helped perpetuate any confusion, and thanks for the clarification.
Cheers,
Nige
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:12:16 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks Nige (re:below)
Message:
Thanks Nige (and Sir Dave)

I was going to add a quick nt thanks in the actual thread but it's been blocked.

Check out this article ....as you mention McCarthyism. Do you think the MAJORITY is ALWAYS right? I think they did think that in McCarthys day and I think they do now.

Best Regards

Dermot
[ No critics please ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:14:45 (EDT)
From: Another Angle...
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: ...to similar question
Message:
http://slate.msn.com/code/BallotBox/BallotBox.asp?Show=10/3/2001&idMessage=8392
[ War and Commentary ]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:26:55 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Another Angle...
Subject: It's that paper again...
Message:
At the other end of things, my friend Andrew Sullivan wrote in the Sunday Times of London: 'The middle part of the country--the great red zone that voted for Bush--is clearly ready for war. The decadent Left in its enclaves on the coasts is not dead--and may well mount what amounts to a fifth column.' (My colleague Tim Noah caught this, prompting Sullivan to semi-apologize.)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 06, 2001 at 02:52:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: It's that paper again...
Message:
Andrew Sullivan wrote that? OK, the middle part of the country (with a few exceptions) gave their electoral votes to Bush, but he only got a plurality in most of those states. If Nader hadn't been in the mix the electoral map wouldn't have looked that way at all. The business about the fifth column is completely off the wall. It amazes me that Sullivan would say something that bone headed. To be honest, I haven't talked to a single person in DC who sympathizes with the 'peace' movement. I think G and Helen are typical of most folks around here.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:58:59 (EDT)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: Another Angle...
Subject: EXCELLENT !!! THANK YOU!!! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 20:23:51 (EDT)
From: Henrik Ibsen says ...
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: The minority is always right.
Message:
From the quote for the day in last weekend's paper.

Anna

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:16:57 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: Thanks Nige (re:below)
Message:
Dermot:

In McCarthy's day McCarthy was in the minority. That's why he was so damned strident. If you're going to draw lessons from history, at least get your history *right*.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:32:12 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: My Post..and Moley.
Message:
Hi Nigel. I dont know you. I am a recent Ex-Premie. Who applied to the PRIVATE Forum, because I wanted to Talk About and Share My Experiences with My Recently Ex Lord Maharaji in a Safe and Sane Context. I often find this Place to Wild and Wooley for My Preferences.

Anyway, The Terrorists Attacked America and everything Changed. Instead of talking about Maharaji and Knowledge. This Forum and to a lesser extent our Private Forum become a Sounding Board for peoples views on the Conflict. Understandable.

I have however been totally appalled and Overwhelmed for what I considered Unfair and Unneccesary Attacks on America. I actually have been Quite Hurt by It. I had Read this Appleyard (whoever) guys column and found it a refreshing alternate view into the Tres Chic Culture of America Bashing that seems to have found Voice Here..

Thus When I read your Comments I reacted. To Protect my PRIVATE Forum from being overwhelmed by the type of Arguments that have affected This Forum..It was Nothing Personal and it was Just My View.

You May Take Solace in the Fact that My Comments have been Thoroughly discredited and that I have been attacked both on the Private Forum and Now here for my Views.

Again, I dont know you...and I dont have Anything Against you..I do Consider Moley however a Contemptable Slime For having Broken his Pledge of Privacy to NEVER reveal the Content of a Post on our Forum..

I am Saddened that my recently found Fellow Exes could be So Venemous....I Was looking forward to being able to talk with people who shared my common history of Knowledge and Maharaji ...and Now..because of this Incident...that does not seem to be Possible...good luck on Your New Forum..You apparently have lots of friends over there...All the Best, Richard.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:05:13 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Richard - From a 'contemptible slime'
Message:
Richard. Two Points.

1: It is possible to talk about exiting the cult. It's just that, at the moment, everyone is understandably consumed by the terrorist attacks. Terrorists have been attacking large parts of the world for a long time. Why is America any more or less deserving of sympathy???

2: Do you really expect me to keep from the person I love more than anyone else in the world the fact that he is being dissed on a forum that I am a member of?? Come on!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 07:18:42 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Re: Richard - From a 'contemptible slime'
Message:
that is mighty nice of you, regarding [2]. That the way to go. Love is beyond anything including America, yes?

sheesh, I wish I had a woman like you ()):)())

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:25:32 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Re: Richard - From a 'contemptible slime'
Message:
yes actually I Do expect you to keep your Agreement about Confidentiality and i Wasnt DISSing this Guy I dont even know him. I simply thought what he said was Blatantly American Bashing and I didnt want that on the Private Forum for reasons I explain THERE.

You knew that Nigels 'good ex premie name' was never in jeopardy from reading the other posts on the forum ..and whatyou did was simply score points with you lover at the expense of your integrity..good work..

If however you actually had perceived that Nigels good name was threatened or that he should communicate with me..there were much better convenient ways as I express to you on our PRIVATE Forum.

As Far As the Stuff about America..I wont Dignify it with a Comment.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:29:55 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Moley's not a Slime
Message:
Richard,

Moley (female) and Nigel are an item (as they say), so Moley was hardly contemptible for telling Nigel what you had written (whatever it was). The confidentiality of RE is always a delicate issue. When I was an FA on Forum 5 there was blowup when an ex-premie who was not a poster on RE was attacked by the then RE FA on RE. Someone told him, and he quite understandably was annoyed by being attacked on a forum where he couldn't defend himself. Best to attack people to their faces if you're going to do it:-)

All the best, and don't worry about it too much.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 22:17:06 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: John: this is what happened
Message:
John,
Thanks for your Post. Im sorry that this has had to spill over here.
For your Clarification,John, Moley posted on the Private Forum that Nigel wanted to apply to the Forum. I took that as a Formal Application. As Such my Duty is to (confidentially) vote yes or no as to his acceptance. I vote no and very briefly voiced my reasons. I was not trying to attack or in any way Disparge Nigel. I simply stated why I did not at that time feel comfortable with his inclusion. Again, I was not talking behind Nigel's back or trying attacking Nigel. I hear from many people that Nigel is a good guy. But I did tell the truth about how I was feeling at the time.
Hope this clarifies things for you, John.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 19:25:12 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Recent exes forum
Message:
Richard,

I understand how this happened, and I think I understand your feelings on this. I think the mistake you made is not reading Nigel's posts properly (he's definitely not Anti-American), and giving this as a reason for denying him access to the forum.

The forum was set up to provide recent exes with a secure and safe place for exes to work through the issues involved with leaving Maharaji. Bringing political views in as a basis for membership goes against the principles of the forum, I feel.

John who was expelled from RE by the previous FA for not posting enough (and for privately criticising the previous FA), but then the previous FA was later sacked as well:-)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 20:01:44 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks for sticking up for me JHB
Message:
Me and Richard have made friends now... and are even starting to be Email pals.
Love Moley who is probably about to be expelled from RE myself!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:25:18 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: JHB
Subject: Thank you JHB xxx [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:04:47 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Moley's not a Slime
Message:
Truth is, Moley was browsing on the computer while Nigel was in the old tattered easy chair reading some socialist rag. As Moley perused the Recent Ex Forum posts she noticed Nigel's name.

Snickering, she read how Nigel was really a dastardly anti-American. She'd known it all along, but indulged Nigel is his silly belief that he was really only against injustice. Finally, someone else could see he had skeletons in his closet. She was truly entertained and amused for the first time all day.

'Uh, oh.' Nigel motioned out of his seat, a bit creaky after all those cracks with the billy-clubs his body had taken from facist military troops. Molly jerked forward to cover the computer monitor, lest Nigel discover she was giggling at him in secret.

Nigel, ever-observant, noticed Molly's odd movements. He could read her like a book.

'I'm going to get a cuppa. Would you like one, dear?', Nigel suggested, as cranked his neck upwards to see the computer screen over Molly's coif.

'Sure, Nige', Molly replied. She writhed back cover Nige's view. He darted forward quickly, but Molly countered.

'Over there!' Nige hollered, pointing out the garden window. 'Little Billy from next-door just broke the Bickerson's flower pot with his cricket-stick. Molly fell for it, her voyeuristic nature unveiled. And Nige twisted left, finally able to see his name in bold print... ANTI-AMERICAN.

'Oh, no', Nige screamed as he scurryed towards the back of the house. Molly came running. It was going to be a long night.

Alas, there's no one to snitch on for betraying the secret right of a recent ex to air the dirty laundry of ancient exes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:30:37 (EDT)
From: N&M
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: MUST READ * LOL * be a scriptwriter [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:02:23 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Moley's not a Slime
Message:
First off i WASNT Attacking ANybody..somebody ASKED if Nigel Should be Admitted and I simply Responded that I Did Feel Comfortable with Admitting Him with His Anti-American Views...
The Forum is CONFIDENTIAL not Semi-Confidential or Confidential when you like whats being Said What i said Wasnt bad nor was Nigel in ANY Danger of having his Reputation Being Ruined or Being Black Balled From the 'Group'

As for Moley being a Slime..to me..what She did was VERY Slimy...She may have been trying to win points with her Significant Other ..but it was TOTALLY DIsrepectful and Hurtful.
Im not having a Good time with THis and i DONT Appreciate being Called out on a PUBLIC forum for what i Said In Private.

If the Forum Administrator does whats Right she will ban Moley from the Private Forum. Certainly because of Moley's action I will no longer Post there.Hope that explains things.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:19:18 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Yes, she is a complete slime, but I love her.....
Message:
So what are you? Talking about a specific post of mine on THIS forum - where you could have replied if you felt like it - where you COULD have seen I am NOT anti-American if YOU had READ it and UNDERSTOOD it and HAD the WHEREWITHAL to do so. By ALL means, quote from my post and explain WHY you have such a MAD interpretation of IT. Yeah do that - IN ALL CAPS if you like, but do NOT lie about me or misrepresent me on your private FUXCKING forum, ok?

Thanks for the apology.

Have you acknowledged Loaf's apology yet? I hear there's been quite a bit of flaming on RE lately, ALL of it coming from one poster only.

Now who might that be?

(BTW: I have no intention of joining Recent Exes

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:39:53 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel??
Message:
(BTW: I have no intention of joining Recent Exes

Why not? i thought you wanted to.

Peg

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 18:43:29 (EDT)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Nigel??
Message:
I was curious as to whether I would be acceptable, that's all. There were a few reasons why it might be a good idea for me to have membership, though I had no great desire to join. Moley floated the idea on the RE forum and look what happened.. Right now seems a bad time for uncensored honest opinions, methinks. It can be tricky enough here where no self-censorship principles apply. Maybe it takes a different type of temperament to fit in with that kind of environment, from Moley's experience (she feels she's had more than enough undeserved shit off people for a while).

Shipping out for a bit - Moley too from RE.

Ciaoferniao..

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:35:20 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re:Yes,sheis a complete slime, but I love her.....
Message:
I See you have kept up with whats been going on on our Private Forum pretty extensively through your Beloved Slime, Nigel. The Point is. It wasnt even a Big thing. I was just SICK and TIRED of having to hear ANTI American Stuff on a forum that is Suppose to Bring us Together through our common Experience and Dissillusionment with Maharaji.
I admit I have been VERY Hurt by what I feel is Unjust Criticism of America on this Forum. but I dont think anyone but your Beloved Slime would Categorize what i said about you or anyone else as FLaming.
The funny thing is..I voted for Nader in 96 Gore in 2000 and I am pretty much a Liberal. I Disagree with a LOT of my Countries Policies..Still It Hurts Me when I see people Hating My Country. I probably jumped a little quickly in my assessment of you. and I Stood Corrected. It was the Animus and Lack of Kindness or Civility towards me in my distress that i find So appalling. I Will Be Fine. But Im very Disillusioned in my attempt to open up on line and share in a Real Way with Ex Premies. Maybe Ill Just Pop in a Maharaji Tape....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:58:58 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Complete slime, but I have forgiven her. her
Message:
Whatever. Read my first post again, and then my second, and tell me what any of what you are talking about has to do with me, or 'Hating Your Country', as you put it.

BTW: I don't read recent exes - but I have a right to know if someone is bad-mouthing me on a worldwide platform. And Loaf is a good friend of mine, so I know about that one too. You are not the only person who has ever felt hurt, BTW. Think about it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:58:38 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Let's be realistic
Message:
Richard:

Let's be realistic. How many instances will occur where your privacy might be compromised by the lover of someone you've criticized? I mean really, if you think Nigel's anti-American then define the term and go after him. For all I know, he is. At least he's on the right side of the gun issue. I don't see that Applewhathisname is any more in error in his defense of the US than most of the people who've accused the Great Republic of stuff like murdering hundreds of thousands of noncombatants for the sake of profit (couldn't they get a real job) on the flimsiest of highly partisan evidence (something I definitely define as anti-American, anti-Truth and willfully destructive.) I empathize with Nigel's compulsion for truth, since I don't see how you'd hope to resolve anything complex without it. But I might see a slightly different truth that he... and who knows, I might be right. It has happened (usually without much fanfare). If someone has been keeping score I'd like to redeem my coupons for a new bike please, or at least some tires?

--Scott 'It's not the bike, it's the...' T.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 18:04:43 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: So is it an AMERICAN forum? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 17:01:09 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Richard
Subject: Richard would you please
Message:
...email me your controversial post. I would love to read it. I also have been villified here for being a knee-jerk pro-American but have now pledged to stop making anymore political posts so that we can get back on topic.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 16:24:26 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot)
Message:
Nigel:

I had the thought that the tone and style of your anti-Applegate piece was at least partly influenced by the dissertation process, and wondered if you might also be having the migraines yet?

(1) Brian Appleyard appears to endorse the view that over 90% of the Arab world believes America 'got what it deserved'. I say this is bullshit. In fact, dangerous bullshit in a world-wide publication, given the current crisis. Is this nonsense likely to reduce such anti-American feeling as might exist? Ok, how about anti-Arab feeling in the west? (It is a bit like confidently asserting that 90% of the world's Catholics support the IRA)

Well, I don't think the US is as unpopular as most lefties (and some righties) believe it to be. I'm not sure there's a specific item on the Inglehart survey to prove it, and the only Muslim country included is Turkey (and some of the Russian Republics in the latest round?), but I'll bet I could make a case anyway with correlates of pro-America sentiment.

(2) He takes a few isolated cases of clear anti-American hostility - including some admittedly disgusting comments from the general public - and uses them to suggest there is an irrational 'Yankophobe' tendency in GB and elsewhere - when in truth the overwhelming reaction to the WTC attack in Britain and Europe in was of horror, anger and empathy for everyone affected, not to mention enormous admiration for the New York fire service etc.

I think he got his time sequences mixed up. There was probably a lot of Yankophobe sentiment prior to the attack that dissipated after the event. It's easier and more acceptable to criticize a friend if he's not in a battle for his life. At least you acknowledge (and I imagine most Brits would acknowledge) the total impropriety of those incidents.

(3) He then attempts to brand certain writers as anti-American: Rosie Boycott, George Monbiot, Suzanne Moore, Gore Vidal and others, providing no sensible evidence to that effect, at times unwarrantedly nasty as well as plain wrong. Of course, all of the people he cites are politically on the liberal/environmental/left - people he would probably find fault with, whatever they said. But none are anti-American, that I am aware of.

Have to disagree about Vidal, at least in a general sense. I mentioned above about the acceptability of criticizing a friend in prosperous circumstances, but somehow the tradition of criticism that began during the anti-war Vietnam period became institutionalized and now amounts to something like a worldview. It is anti-American to the extent that it trivializes such contributions as the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and other founding values. Vidal is up to his eyeballs in that crap, though in other respects he is prototypically American. There is a certain irony in the fact that the most anti-American of US citizens are just as obviously American in their basic mistrust of authority and fundamental commitment to individualism (in the form of self-reliance) as Thoreau, Emerson or Margaret Fuller. But to miss the linkage with the founding values is to impoverish oneself. So there are A and B strains of liberalism, with a great deal more in common than is usually supposed.

Bugger the emotional tone - truth is important. By all means feel emotional – who doesn’t right now? – but beware of the emotive manipulator of those emotions. So if I sounded vitriolic in places, it was not aimed at the American people or its culture - not remotely - but at what I saw as a shoddy piece of, at times inflammatory, journalism with its own agenda, capitalising on the mood of the moment, rather than improving it.

Also, if you read between the lines - and if you know the people he is talking about - you will quickly realise Brian Appleyard is only pro a certain section of American society with a specific political leaning– not all of them/you by any standards. In that respect he is – by his own definition – no more or less anti-American than those he is bad-mouthing. Civil rights protesters are/were Americans too, no?

They were at the time, but things have changed. Again, if you cut yourself loose from the founding values to toddle along after the likes of Derrida (who is a lot of fun, but not very admirable) you have become anti-American, without realizing it. I'm alarmed that things have drifted this far.

(What slightly worries me about that ‘anti-American’ tag, is its resemblance to those ‘un-American activities’ invented by the McCarthy commission fifty years back. I am not saying anything like that will happen again, but what goes around, sometimes comes around…?)

Don't worry, you have to be American to be un-American. And the fact that we haven't started a witch hunt for 'Islamic Sympathizers' probably means that we're not all that threatened. I also saw Lipset's unparalleled analysis of the McCarthy period that gets to the heart of it. The Republican Party had been out of power for a long time, with little hope of getting back in. That's the backdrop to the McCarthy era that most people forget. It was an act of political desperation and paranoia. Not the same thing today.

Hope that clarifies a few things.

Danke. Take care of those headaches.

--Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:26:32 (EDT)
From: Private Forum Participant
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel You were Misinformed
Message:
Nigel,
Regarding your Post on this Forum, There may have been a discussion about your admission to our Private Forum but the content was not what you have alleged. All conversations on that Forum are private by mutual agreement. I can assure you that If you applyto our forum, you will be considered as are all other applicants.

Could you please inform us as to the source of your information, Nigel? It is vitally important that Our Forum remain PRIVATE and it is a Pledge that all who are Admitted to Our Forum take to Not Reveal the Discussions and Posts that are Communicated. Thank you for your assistance.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:31:47 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Private Forum Participant
Subject: No Nigel wasn't misinformed
Message:
What do you mean misinformed? No he wasn't. I informed him. Who are you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:07:38 (EDT)
From: Recent Exes FA
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot)
Message:
Dearest Nigel,
Lest people get the wrong impression, it's not that big a deal to become a member of Recent Exes. You could become a member by simply emailing me via recent exes.

And I really don't think you need to worry too much about people casting aspersions upon your good name on another forum. It's been nipped in the bud.
Love from,
Yer American Freedom-Lovin' Pal

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:31:07 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Recent Exes FA
Subject: Re: NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot)
Message:
Thanks REFA. Appeciated, though I am not sure what 'nipped in the bud means' - has Richard's post been removed? Either way, I thought I deserved the right to reply, and since I can't do that there (other than by proxy), I just wanted to set the record straight. Otherwise I wouldn't bother about, or pass on any bit of info gleaned from RE members. Think about it - wouldn't you want to do the same? (I know I would)

Yes, I know how to go about joining the RE forum if I want to, assuming they'd have me, and I wanted to - but the point is, Richard is talking about me now regarding a forum post I did over here at a time when I am not a member of the upper chamber..;)

Best, Nige

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:55:39 (EDT)
From: FA/RE
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot)
Message:
Dear Nige--
By nipped in the bud, I meant that your good name was defended by all on the forum.

I do understand how you feel. We can talk about this more by email if you wish.
FA,RE

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:40:34 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: NOT Anti-American, ok, Richard? (ot)
Message:
Great post, Nigel.

For the record, I am pro-common sense, pro-democracy, pro-universal human rights, pro- the
safety and security of innocent civilians everywhere. I am anti the exploitation of the poor by
the rich, anti the persecution of minorities, anti one-party communism, anti the uninvited
meddling in smaller nations' affairs by their more powerful neighbours (be it from countries on
the left or right), anti-dictatorships of the left, right or fundamentalist nutter. Oh - and I am also
anti-organised religion, new-age beliefs and creationist thought. Then there's
anti-handgun-law, anti-death penalty, anti-royalist and anti the existence of an unelected
House of Lords....and anti-pacifist on the grounds that there is indeed such thing as a just
war. And I want every guilty member of Bin Laden's terror org to be brought to justice and
suitably punished.

This part's a masterpiece. I think the only thing you missed was anti-dripping-causting-shampoo-ingredients-into-the-eyes-of-rodents, which I would have mentioned. But really, in my view you've just been vaulted into saint-like status above even Joe.

(What slightly worries me about that ‘anti-American’ tag, is its resemblance to those
‘un-American activities’ invented by the McCarthy commission fifty years back. I am not
saying anything like that will happen again, but what goes around, sometimes comes
around…?)

You hit the nail on the head there.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:36:42 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I apologise, Nigel
Message:
I can't speak for any of the others who responded to you but I never for one minute thought that you were anti-American. In fact I never for minute think that you are anything but intelligent, thoughtful and responsible.

I must apologise for posting my message as a response to your Appleyard critique. It should not have been placed there and rightly belonged in another thread. I was being smart alecky and as a result my response to you appeared to be a snub of your post. The fact is I cannot find fault with you critique of Appleyard.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 15:14:55 (EDT)
From: NigeandMoley
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Relax Pat, it's ok..
Message:
Nige: I was only mildy irritated by the focus of your Applejack reply, Pat, and a bit too, by Pat D's post. I don't think any the less of either of you. But thanks for the apology - that always shows character, IMO. But to be described as vitriolically anti-American on a forum I am not a member of was something I felt the need to respond to. Cheers (and thanks Rick for the hagiographic moment above. I'll go and polish my crown, now)

Moley: What Nige has just said is weird cos I was, at the time of his writing that, thinking about one of my heroes, Dennis Potter (the TV playwrite) and the last interview he gave before he died (too young) of pancreatic cancer.....

He quoted the hymn ' Will there be stars in my crown, will there be stars in my crown?' I thought that was a beautiful line. He was talking about knowing he was going to die pretty immanently, seeing the blossom outside his window, and thinking it was the blossomest blossom he had ever seen.

He also said that (although a lifetime left-winger) he had lately awoke in the mornings not knowing if he was on the left or the right.

All this, a long-winded way of saying I don't care what political views anyone holds here - but I like people with stars in their crowns! And so sorry if I upset you. I know I said I'm gonna Email you, and I will tonite, if the rum doesn't get to me first. xxxxx Moley

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 21:14:48 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: NigeandMoley
Subject: Re: Relax Pat, it's ok..
Message:
It's difficult to have a bar room conversation between pen pals which is what we have at the monent imo.

I'm sorry about the left/right supermarket shelf jibe....that was a cheap shot.

I suppose my own feelings about all this are based on the notion that terrorism is always wrong regardless of 'root cause' i.e I don't subscribe to the idea that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Also my gut feeling was that certain sections of the British media showed a totally insensitive & offensive reaction to the attacks on America so soon after they had happened , by attempting to find a rational analysis as to why , based on their own prejudices .

Also I think it's difficult for people on this side of the Atlantic to appreciate just what a profound blow this has been (& continues to be ) to the American psyche . I've had phone conversations with a couple of my American friends since the 11th & they are totally shattered.

It would be nice to get together in a real bar room sometime & shoot the breeze .

All the best : Pat Dorrity

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:08:22 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: PatD, you are an angel
Message:
You have no idea what a treat it is to hear from a Brit who actually FEELS something and is not just being abstract and academic about this stuff. Even here 3,000 miles away we are hurting.

Yes, NO terrorism is justified. It is all barbaric including the IRA and the ANC. Mandela was tried (the Rivonia trial) and jailed for planting a bomb which killed civilians. His 27 years in prison seemed to have turned him into a human being. Perhaps 27 years in prison may civilize Bin Li..oops Laden. ;)

Thank you. I hope one day to take your hand in friendship.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 08:21:05 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Greyhound Buslines Suspends Service OT
Message:
Seems a Greyhound driver's throat was slit by a passenger causing the bus to crash resulting in 10 deaths, and around 30 injuries needing hospital attention. The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation and the FBI were called in. Details are still sketchy.

Talk amongst yourselves.
[ Bus Crash ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 08:59:09 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Was it an Arab?
Message:
I'll be the one to ask since we're such a politically correct bunch. But seriously, folks, isn't that the first thing you want to know? Come on, now, be honest.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 09:10:25 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Was it an Arab?
Message:
That was my first thought. Then I remembered that those in Afghanistan and Pakistan aren't Arab, so my next thought was 'was it a Muslim?'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 10:57:51 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Was it an Arab?
Message:
Ok -- I'll admit that was my first question when my husband told me this morning. And when everyone I know was whining about how afraid they are to fly, my comment was, 'Next, it will be a Greyhound bus.' I should kept my mouth shut.

Best,
Susan

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 12:41:27 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Was a Jew from Afghanistan
Message:
some say a Christan from Saudi Arabia.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:25:32 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Re: Was it an Arab?
Message:
Just showed you're a smart cookie. The latest is that the guy had a Croatian passport.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:38:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Hate to ask ...
Message:
Just showed you're a smart cookie. The latest is that the guy had a Croatian passport.


---

Was that MUSLIM croat?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 11:48:09 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hate to ask ...
Message:
Yeah, naturally that's the next question, but no news on that yet. So far the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation is downplaying that there's any connection at all to the recent terrorism.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 12:00:57 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: more...
Message:
The bus driver told doctors the attacker slit his throat with a razor or boxcutter, took control of the steering wheel and drove the bus into oncoming traffic.

Sound familiar?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 09:16:18 (EDT)
From: Due to the need to be PC
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: the networks can't say [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 14:47:42 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Due to the need to be PC
Subject: No, the need to be certain...
Message:
Simplistic equations/speculations like Croat = Muslim = Arab = Fanatic = Apocalyptic nihilst = Threat are only going to spread unneceaasry fear of fresh Bin Laden attacks among the US public and risk the possibly fragile allegiance of some strategically essential Muslim countries in the alliance. Unless, of course, you are certain of a connection in which case people should be alerted.

There were Muslims killed in the Trade Towers. The father of one - lives in the UK - has been constantly harrassed and threatened by strangers since Sept 11 for his Mullah-like appearance.

The networks seem to be behaving responsibly.

BTW: Did you hear Blair's speech? Way to go, Tony..!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index