Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Oct 11, 2001 To: Oct 17, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


JHB (EPO Webmaster) -:- ** PAM, I can't use your post on EPO! ** -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 15:17:40 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Publish and be damned John. -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 04:51:43 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: Publish and be damned John. -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 07:03:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Fair enough John. (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 05:48:23 (EDT)
__ Pamette -:- Re: ** PAM, I can't use your post on EPO! ** -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:36:02 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Corroboration -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 14:09:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Corroboration -:- Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 04:05:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pamette -:- Re: Corroboration -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 18:52:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Corroboration -:- Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 13:00:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- But you haven't answered my question! -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 18:56:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pamette -:- Re: But you haven't answered my question! -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 19:00:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Are you Bjorn? -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 20:22:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: But you haven't answered my question! -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 19:45:00 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Assertion, not argument or evidence.. -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 12:46:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pamette -:- Re: Assertion, not argument or evidence.. -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 19:05:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- You know WHAT for a fact? -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 20:04:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Assertion, not argument or evidence.. -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 19:49:20 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Do you want to be an accessory to child rape? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 17:36:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pamette -:- Re: Do you want to be an accessory to child rape? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 17:53:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- How do you know Bjorn? -:- Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 19:20:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Do you want to be an accessory to child rape? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 18:00:23 (EDT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Why are you certain re jagdeo ? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 17:10:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pamette -:- Re: Why are you certain re jagdeo ? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 17:57:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Quit playing games -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 18:01:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I'll help Pamette out... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 19:29:40 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- I suspect i know who Pam is -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:03:20 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Pam's Post -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 19:15:01 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- Anonymity redux - a suggestion for PAMs -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 14:58:43 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- PAM Apartheid. -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 05:04:39 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Can I have my money back please? -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 07:10:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- I'll deduct it... -:- Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 06:11:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- You decietful bleeder, JHB -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 09:36:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- No, it was a Marathon -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 13:46:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Brighton -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 17:46:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Brighton -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 18:05:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Re: Brighton -:- Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 01:43:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Brighton -:- Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 02:07:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- LOL!!! (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 14:07:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's not fair -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 11:44:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Typical lawyers response.. -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 12:30:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, yes it was .... SO????? -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 22:42:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- But Sharia will solve all forum problems -:- Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 15:48:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- All I can say, Jim -:- Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 12:15:41 (EDT)
__ Nick -:- Re: Anonymity redux - a suggestion for PAMs -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 15:41:29 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Anonymity redux - hi, Nick -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:23:38 (EDT)

rob -:- knowledge has always worked for me... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 09:32:49 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Santa always worked for me. -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 05:09:41 (EDT)
__ bill -:- please speak in plain english -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 22:43:30 (EDT)
__ __ Loaf -:- BILL...please speak in plain english -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 03:33:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ bill-Howdy Loaf -:- dang cultspeak got me agin! [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 16:17:09 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- Re: knowledge has always worked for me... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 12:01:01 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: knowledge has always worked for me... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 10:04:42 (EDT)
__ __ Timmi -:- Re: knowledge has always worked for me... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 15:45:39 (EDT)

Bjørn E -:- Hi Pam (Is a tiny curse in Church OK?) -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:21:16 (EDT)
__ bill-Dont start a new thead -:- just to respond to another thread. [nt] -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 22:51:00 (EDT)

hamzen -:- e-mail address for epo? jhb? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:45:11 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: e-mail address for epo? jhb? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:06:04 (EDT)

don -:- björns post on LG -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:27:48 (EDT)
__ Tim G -:- Re: björns post on LG -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:54:21 (EDT)
__ __ Jim S. -:- Bjorn,how about this, for starters.. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 10:54:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Hi Jim S -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:25:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You're wasting your time, Jim S. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 14:09:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Thinking doesnt change the -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:35:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Thinking doesnt change the -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:47:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, good riddance -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:49:10 (EDT)

Guy Rollins -:- Chai? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 00:49:40 (EDT)
__ cq -:- if it's recipes you're after ... -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 08:01:07 (EDT)
__ Joy -:- Here's what I used to make for Jagdeo -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 03:45:23 (EDT)
__ bill-did m flip out on your freind -:- when the 707 ebony trim 'blued' in Montreal? [nt] -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 22:53:57 (EDT)
__ Brian S. -:- Re: Chai? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 20:47:29 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- That was a sly chai recipe ;) [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 03:34:10 (EDT)
__ [Blank] -:- Re: Chai? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 14:26:07 (EDT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Re Chai?Its NOT tea its CHAI !! knucklehead. [nt] -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:10:45 (EDT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Re Chai? It NOT CHAI !! knucklehead. [nt] -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:09:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- never mind sheesh [nt] -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:11:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ [Blank] -:- yeah, take that you too -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 21:41:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: yeah, take that you too -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 23:36:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mummiji -:- You can't hide from me, Saucykins!! :| -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 22:47:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ zelda -:- Re: You can't hide from me, Saucykins!! :| -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 23:43:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mummiji -:- Believe me, I know what you mean! :) -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 13:22:28 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Chaieeeeeeeeeee. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:34:58 (EDT)
__ __ Suedoula -:- Does it work with soymilk? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:14:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Nothing works with soya milk. (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 05:06:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Oh yes it does Anth! -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 07:51:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Oh yes it does Anth! -:- Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 05:51:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Oh yes it does Anth! -:- Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 10:16:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Suedoula -:- Re: Nothing works with soya milk. (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 07:15:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Suedoula -:- It's better than cow snot :) -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 07:18:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Peg -:- Re: Does it work with soymilk? Yes it does. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 09:32:41 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- PS. -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:46:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Anth's chai's awful -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:58:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- I dunno... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:08:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Poor Anth, this just because -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 13:03:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hmmmn. -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 05:08:20 (EDT)
__ janet -:- Re: Chai-here ya go -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:10:14 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Chai? few hints -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 01:55:44 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Chai? and if you like it piquant... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 03:56:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- FA - lock this thread because -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 05:34:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Dave, you need a cup of tea... -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:28:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Extra kick -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:24:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- P.S. Forgot the ginger -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:26:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Chai?? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 10:37:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Chai??i??i??i??i?? -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 10:37:16 (EDT)

btdt -:- THEN LET'S DO IT!!! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:22:13 (EDT)
__ P.S. -:- real name -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:38:06 (EDT)
__ __ michael donner -:- Re: real name -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 15:17:00 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Ta da, for your bravery! [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:39:46 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- Uhhh, I hate to play into Jim's hands here but ... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:36:35 (EDT)
__ __ Vicki -:- see my p.s. post -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:41:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Congratulations -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:49:30 (EDT)

gerry -:- 11,000 page views in last 30 hours NT -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:10:45 (EDT)
__ Zelda -:- 11,000 page views- what do you mean? [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:25:17 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: 11,000 page views- what do you mean? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:30:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I know what it means -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:49:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: 11,000 page views! -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:34:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- bet it was 'Pam's report -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 03:05:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- No, it's the Chai thread. (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:31:21 (EDT)

Loaf -:- The single minded trap -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:48:11 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Re: The single minded trap -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:26:28 (EDT)
__ __ Loaf -:- Re: The single minded trap -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:19:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You're on a roll, Loafie -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 19:59:33 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- GREAT post, Loafie! [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:40:53 (EDT)

Jean Paul -:- Question to Pat Conlon -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:38:35 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Hi, Jean-Paul -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:48:00 (EDT)
__ __ Jean Paul -:- Re: Hi, Patl -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:20:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- HI J-P, I am ignorant of buddhism -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 13:58:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jean Paul -:- Thank you -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:59:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You're welcome anytime, J-P [nt] -:- Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 20:52:39 (EDT)

gerry -:- Dear Pam, your NB was NB'd -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:29:18 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- Gerry could you change the text please -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:02:58 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Yup, that's a good idea -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:29:31 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Flame free or hot? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:19:34 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- sanjay dewan...???? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:24:43 (EDT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Re: sanjay dewan...???? -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 13:31:44 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- To: Ben Lurking..and FA -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 14:43:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ Asst FA -:- Done [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 17:48:07 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Re: sanjay dewan...???? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:24:06 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Ok, thanks J-M... -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 21:58:48 (EDT)
__ [Blank] -:- Re: sanjay dewan...???? -:- Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:05:24 (EDT)


Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 15:17:40 (EDT)
From: JHB (EPO Webmaster)
Email: jhb@ex-premie.org
To: All
Subject: ** PAM, I can't use your post on EPO! **
Message:
Pam,

I second Pat's post below. As your report stands it can be dismissed by current premies as an elaborate hoax, taking the EPO allegations and embellishing them into a coherent story.

As such, apart from including the post in the forum archives, I can't see that I can give it more prominence until I know a little more about you. Email me, using an anonymous address initially if you like, and let's discuss the issue.

John Brauns

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 04:51:43 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB (EPO Webmaster)
Subject: Publish and be damned John.
Message:
Hi John,

Not all of the information in Pams post was rehashed from EPO. Some of it was new and revealing. For example, the meeting Maria Isabella had to discuss the Jagdeo affair. This is the first time this has been mentioned.

Why should we be bothered if premies dismiss it as an elaborate hoax. They dismiss everything we put out. Surely what's the important fact is, not if premies dismiss it, but if it's true or not. So far, nobody had disproved, or even challenged, a single fact of Pams post.

Is this the only reason you're not putting it up, because the premies won't believe it?

Also, there is plenty of stuff on EPO that doesn't have the authors real name on it. Journies for example. There's information I put up from my anonymous honcho spy Phyllis.

I don't see the problem here. If the cult persuade us that the allegations aren't true, we can correct them.

Publish and be damned. Fuck them John. If we're being duped, so what, we got duped. But I don't think we are being duped. I think Pam's post is genuine, and we should preserve it for posterity, along with the other faith shattering stuff from MD etc.

What's the problem John?

Anth publish and be damned.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 07:03:49 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Publish and be damned John.
Message:
Anth,

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask Pam to write to me to discuss the issue. I'm not even asking her to breach her anonymity. If she totally refuses to communicate further then it may as well have been made up. Good point about journeys - I'd certainly publish it as a journey, if Pam requests that.

John.

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Date: Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 05:48:23 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Fair enough John. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:36:02 (EDT)
From: Pamette
Email: None
To: JHB (EPO Webmaster)
Subject: Re: ** PAM, I can't use your post on EPO! **
Message:
Pam,

I second Pat's post below. As your report stands it can be dismissed by current premies as an elaborate hoax, taking the EPO allegations and embellishing them into a coherent story.

As such, apart from including the post in the forum archives, I can't see that I can give it more prominence until I know a little more about you. Email me, using an anonymous address initially if you like, and let's discuss the issue.

John Brauns


---

At the risk of being called a 'cult apologist', here are some factual errors in 'Pam''s post that any real Pam (or current premie for that matter) would undoubtedly know:
* If that person would have been in Amaroo this year, she/he would not have talked about 'Arti trays' - there were none
* If that person would know anything about the current instructors and what is going on with them she/he would not have made up that story (it is laughable )
* He/she saw Jagdeo in India a couple of years ago? Another lie - only an EPO operative could make that one up
No wonder 'PAM' only posted once...it is hard to keep up appearances for too long

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 14:09:08 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pamette
Subject: Corroboration
Message:
I have heard from several sources that Arti occurred at Amaroo (as well as darshan). It was even confirmed by someone who also was also parrotting the EV line that all the Hindu rituals have been removed from the cult.

Regarding the instructors -- what do you know that would counteract what the Pam said?

Regarding Jagdeo, Kelly, who is not anonymous, has reported that she also saw Jagdeo at the DUO ashram in India within the past few years. I don't know how recently this PAM saw Jagdeo, but he or she isn't the only one who did.

Hopefully, this PAM will reveal his or her identity, so you and anyone else can question him/her about anything you like, but in the meantime, how about directing your questions to this person, and get answers, instead of just attacking someone's honesty/veracity?

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Date: Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 04:05:58 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Corroboration
Message:
My father saw Jagdeo in the Indian ashram about six years ago. He walked past him. At the time he said that he felt like punching him but perhaps he did Holy Name or something instead...
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 18:52:44 (EDT)
From: Pamette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Corroboration
Message:
I have heard from several sources that Arti occurred at Amaroo (as well as darshan). It was even confirmed by someone who also was also parrotting the EV line that all the Hindu rituals have been removed from the cult.

Regarding the instructors -- what do you know that would counteract what the Pam said?

Regarding Jagdeo, Kelly, who is not anonymous, has reported that she also saw Jagdeo at the DUO ashram in India within the past few years. I don't know how recently this PAM saw Jagdeo, but he or she isn't the only one who did.

Hopefully, this PAM will reveal his or her identity, so you and anyone else can question him/her about anything you like, but in the meantime, how about directing your questions to this person, and get answers, instead of just attacking someone's honesty/veracity?


---

Dear Joe,
There was Arti, i can confirm that - there was no arti tray. Talking about arti trays indicates that the person was not present at Amaroo.
I stand by what I said that 'Pam' is not a real person

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Date: Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 13:00:25 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pamette
Subject: Re: Corroboration
Message:
Pamette,

It's quite possible this person wasn't actually AT Amaroo. I don't think he or she said they were actually there. It might be that this person has been leaving the cult for quite some time. That doesn't mean he or she isn't real.

I have a hard time believing this isn't a real person, just from the context of what is being said. I've been around here quite a while and I think I'm pretty good at picking out imposters, and this is not one of them. But I think we will see, so stay tuned.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 18:56:03 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pamette
Subject: But you haven't answered my question!
Message:
And you cannot deny it's a little more important that silver platters.

John.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 19:00:11 (EDT)
From: Pamette
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: But you haven't answered my question!
Message:
And you cannot deny it's a little more important that silver platters.

John.


---

John,
to answer your question, i do not have any new info about the Jagdeo affair that you don't already have
PS: my post was not about silver trays - it was about a bogus post that everyone was so exited about.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 20:22:23 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Pamette
Subject: Are you Bjorn?
Message:
You couldn't argue your way out of a wet paper bag you had personally constructed and dampened. Are you sure Godboy wants you on board the Good Ship Lollipop?
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 19:45:00 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pamette
Subject: Re: But you haven't answered my question!
Message:
But how do you KNOW it's bogus. For what it's worth, I think there a small possibility it is bogus, but I don't KNOW that. Whay are you so sure?

John.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 12:46:24 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Pamette
Subject: Assertion, not argument or evidence..
Message:
At the risk of being called a 'cult apologist', here are some factual errors in 'Pam''s post that any real Pam (or current premie for that matter) would undoubtedly know:

I won't call you a cult apologist. That goes without saying. Instead I will suggest you are either a liar or person somewhat lacking in social conscience. If you 'undoubtedly know' why Pam is wrong on the following points, you should bloody-well say so, especially on the issue of Jagdeo's whereabouts.

* If that person would have been in Amaroo this year, she/he would not have talked about 'Arti trays' - there were none

You are splitting hairs here. Arti was sung at Amaroo this year. Are you denying that? And can you confirm that NOBODY present carried an arti tray - mightn't it depend where you were sitting? Either way, you are ignoring the main point that EV is still a devotional cult - when it suits.

* If that person would know anything about the current instructors and what is going on with them she/he would not have made up that story (it is laughable )

I don't see anyone laughing. There have been a number of well-documented episodes where mahatamas have committed sexual assaults - rape even - and have been later sent out to new communites with no more than a flea in their ear from Godboy. If Pam were making these new allegations up, don't you think he/she would have concocted something altogether more serious? Same goes for the cow-shit episode - so off-the-wall I am inclined to think it can only be real.

BTW: do you believe Michael Dettmers regarding M's using premies as pimps to elicit sexual favours from blonde premie women cherry-picked from the darshan line? How do you feel about that?

* He/she saw Jagdeo in India a couple of years ago? Another lie - only an EPO operative could make that one up

Suggest you take note of JHB's and Jim's posts lower down. To even hint you know of Jagdeo's whereabouts is pretty irresponsible, with so many of his victims still hurting. To imply Jagdeo wasn't in India two years back is plain wrong and helps nobody's cause (except perhaps a premie trying to place some clear blue water between the mahatma and his emmissary..?)

We already have reliable eye-witness evidence from a recent non-anonymous ex who also saw Jagdeo in India about eighteen months ago - so you are either misinformed or bullshitting. Either way, it is your claim which is suspect here, not Pam's.

No wonder 'PAM' only posted once...it is hard to keep up appearances for too long

True. But why would anyone make this stuff up? A game-playing premie might want to make some kind of point about ex-premie 'gullibility', as they see it, but not at the price of spreading some pretty damning allegations, I wouldn't think.

An ex-premie, then ...but to what purpose? Pam's testimony was predictably depressing, with new info in places - but nothing worse than anything we have heard so far from reliable sources. Various real-life individuals are named in the course of the post relating to specific events. Perhaps they will come forward to deny all allegations. Perhaps you will contact them?

OK, Pam has only posted once... so far. We may hear more or we may not. But the case against M (eg. the '14 objections' letter) does not require any extra colouring-in of the detail - but it is interesting how all new evidence seems to fit what has come out before, and nothing - from ex or premie - appears to counter anything thus far reported.

So, 'Pamette', are these the three most serious 'factual errors' from an eighteen page document that you can find? Really? The first of these was trivial beyond belief; the second you cannot possibly know the answer to without intimate knowledge of the sex-lives of all the initiators potentially involved; the third was certainly not an error (to the extent that Jagdeo was in India - in EV's protection - for the period in question.)

You sound pretty deperate to me.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 19:05:38 (EDT)
From: Pamette
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Assertion, not argument or evidence..
Message:
Nigel,
if you want to get all excited about a bogus post, be my guest.
I was pointing out that there were some aspects of the post that i know for a fact not to be true. This makes the post less credible...
But hey...that is just me...And have you noticed that 'Pam' has disapeared into thin air?
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 20:04:52 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Pamette
Subject: You know WHAT for a fact?
Message:
I am not getting all excited. Maybe it is you getting all non-responsive. Deal with it. Say what you know, post under your own name, if necessary. Establish a bit of credibilty.

Or disappear like Pam or the melting snow on a fine spring morn. Why the fuck would we care? Did you even read my post?

Without verifiable histories you and Pam are indeed just thought-bubbles. At least Pam's story contained long-known, well-attested facts. Deal with those, for a start.

Bye..

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 19:49:20 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pamette
Subject: Re: Assertion, not argument or evidence..
Message:
Pamette,

What are those aspects that you know for a fact not to be true?

You now admit you don't know anything more than we do about Jagdeo's whereabouts, and you are not interested in silver trays. It's very unlikely you have intimate knowledge of instructors' sexual lives, so what exactly do you know of Pam's post to be untrue?

Pam may be losing some credibility by not posting but you appear to be losing more by not being able to back up your claim that Pam is bogus.

John.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 17:36:36 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: jhb@ex-premie.org
To: Pamette
Subject: Do you want to be an accessory to child rape?
Message:
If you have information about the whereabouts of Jagdeo then you have a moral and legal requirement to disclose it, if not here, then to the proper authorities. Anth Ginn has details of the UK police investigation, and he will be able to direct you to the appropriate person. Also, DUO in India have an outstanding civil writ against him. Please confirm that you have revealed what information you have to them.

If of course you are bluffing, then you should read Abi's Fragmentation post below and have a serious think about your own conscience in this matter.

John Brauns

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 17:53:57 (EDT)
From: Pamette
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Do you want to be an accessory to child rape?
Message:
If you have information about the whereabouts of Jagdeo then you have a moral and legal requirement to disclose it, if not here, then to the proper authorities. Anth Ginn has details of the UK police investigation, and he will be able to direct you to the appropriate person. Also, DUO in India have an outstanding civil writ against him. Please confirm that you have revealed what information you have to them.

If of course you are bluffing, then you should read Abi's Fragmentation post below and have a serious think about your own conscience in this matter.

John Brauns


---

What are you talking about? i am not questionning the whole Jagdeo incident. I am saying that PAM's post is bogus. Big difference. PAM is a 'made up' pseudo person. I dare you to prove me wrong.
By the way, if 'PAM' has info on Jagdeo's whereabouts, what about his/her moral and legal obligation?

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Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 19:20:14 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pamette
Subject: How do you know Bjorn?
Message:
Bjorn,

What the fuck are you still doing here? I thought you made an agreement to split.

You said:

I am saying that PAM's post is bogus. Big difference. PAM is a 'made up' pseudo person.

How do you know? Go ahead, PROVE IT!

Note: To say 'made up' and psuedo is redundant.

I dare you to prove me wrong.

Yup that is Bjorn logic alright? Say something, anything and dare the other person to prove you wrong. Really Sick Bjorn.

Reverse your thinking processes before it's too late.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 18:00:23 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pamette
Subject: Re: Do you want to be an accessory to child rape?
Message:
Pamette, you wrote this:-

* He/she saw Jagdeo in India a couple of years ago? Another lie - only an EPO operative could make that one up

If you have no knowledge of Jagdeo's whereabouts, how do you know this is a lie?

I agree about Pam's responsibilities in this matter, and I am trying to establish communication with him/her. If such communication is established, then Jagdeo's whereabouts will be one of the topics discussed.

So could you answer my question please.

John.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 17:10:24 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Pamette
Subject: Why are you certain re jagdeo ?
Message:
If you have factual evidence you should post it, that man is still free as far as we know and could still be doing who knows what to vulnerable kids.
If you don't how can you be so certain it's a lie?
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 17:57:48 (EDT)
From: Pamette
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Why are you certain re jagdeo ?
Message:
If you have factual evidence you should post it, that man is still free as far as we know and could still be doing who knows what to vulnerable kids.
If you don't how can you be so certain it's a lie?


---

hamzen, why don't you question 'PAM' instead of questionning me? and if YOU don't know, how can you be certain it's the truth (ie: PAM seing Jagdeo recently - i am not questionning the Jagdeo incident)
I find you guys very gullible when it comes to believe what an anonymous poster is claiming (unless, of course, if that anonymous poster seems to be a premie)

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 18:01:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pamette
Subject: Quit playing games
Message:
If you have factual evidence you should post it, that man is still free as far as we know and could still be doing who knows what to vulnerable kids.
If you don't how can you be so certain it's a lie?


---

hamzen, why don't you question 'PAM' instead of questionning me? and if YOU don't know, how can you be certain it's the truth (ie: PAM seing Jagdeo recently - i am not questionning the Jagdeo incident)
I find you guys very gullible when it comes to believe what an anonymous poster is claiming (unless, of course, if that anonymous poster seems to be a premie)


---

You're being silly here. First, you say 'pam' couldn't possibly have seen Jagdeo in India in the last few years. But when JHB and Bamzen ask you how you know you won't say.

Talk about creidibility problems!

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 19:29:40 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'll help Pamette out...
Message:
Here's what "Pamette" could say in rebuttal:

Pam couldn't have seen jagdeo in India in 1998 because:

Jagdeo was in the Far East

Jagdeo was in South America

Jagdeo croaked in 199X

Something like these reasons, so we know you have evidence to truthfully counter this claim.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:03:20 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: Loafji@yahoo.com
To: JHB (EPO Webmaster)
Subject: I suspect i know who Pam is
Message:
its only a suspicion though.... but shes lovely and I havnt seen her for years, and have no way of checking.. and nor is it my place to do so really.. after all I dont often use my own name of Ian Warburton... but since all my friends call me Loaf anyway.... If it is you, let me know.
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 19:15:01 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Pam's Post
Message:
Hello Folks,

I have no idea who ''Pam'' is, but I have printed out and read the post extensively. It wasn't written by anyone I know, but could have been edited by someone I know.

I now question how/why SC on LG, knew a while ago, when the ''Please Consider This'' site came out, when SC posted on LG that Scott (R.) had named the site and was very pleased with it. but same Scott (R.) is still 'downunder.'

I know who Scott R. is and it was stated in Pam's post that Scott (R.) is Scott Ritter from Hartford, CT. He is a writer and has been a devotee of M for about 3 decades. I had an intimate relationship with him in from 1976 through about 1979.

I have to give whoever Pam is some credibility for knowing that he/she doesn't think Scott R. would be behind CAC. I knew him very well in the late 70s' and can't see him involved in CAC. BUT, I do see him becoming involved in the Please Consider This site. Especially because the one of the criteria for submissions is 'well written' or some such editorial comment, as well as the design and format--seems like Scott.

That's ALL I have to say about this for the moment. As for arti trays being swung at that last Amaroo, I can well imagine them being swung at the feet of the freakin' master, well out of site of most attendees. It has happened in the past where those of us not even that far back could not see arti trays being swung, (usually by Indian bais).

This doesn't mean I don't have doubts about Pam's identity or credibility, it just means I haven't discounted it altogether, either. I just don't know. But was surprised to the personal reference to ''Scott R.''

Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 14:58:43 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Anonymity redux - a suggestion for PAMs
Message:
As I said to Pam (whoever that might be) I cut us ordinary peasants a lot of slack when it comes to using aliases but expect anyone with any serious allegations to post under their real names in order to avoid the crap like ''Peter Cramer'' the cult apologist has written.

When I first read the forum I dismissed it because it seemed most posters were anonymous and had no credibilty. Then along came Michael Dettmers and that brought Francesca, Chuck and me on board.

Who cares what us peasants say and under what name? Mostly we're chatting and reminiscing and having baby throwing festivals. However I like to get to know real people not waste my time guessing about ghosts like the cultweasels. Most exes who post under handles have always emailed me to tell me who they are. Thanks.

BUT, when a supposed PAM posts, I expect complete honesty as Dettmers and Donner did. My suggestion to lurking fence-sitting PAMs is to contact an ex whom you know before posting so that we can vouch for you.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 05:04:39 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: PAM Apartheid.
Message:
Pat,

why should it be one rule for the PAMs and one for everybody else? People on Rawats staff have much more pressure on them than 'foot soldier 'premies. They are more heavily brainwashed, abused, and are often dependent on the cult for their income. Many don't have established home lives.

Then there's the legal and financial aspects of coming out. Like I said before, many PAMs have big financial commitments to all sorts of projects. Say for example, you're financially liable, a trustee or something, then you become an ex. There are immediately lots of conflicts that have very real financial and legal implications. By coming out, Pam could get herself in all sorts of legal and financial mess.

The other PAMs I know in this situation are extricating themselves from their legal ties before making any public moves renouncing the cult.

And finally Pat, as you must be aware yourself, when the penny drops, and you wake up, all sorts of confusing feelings and emotions start flying around. You feel lost, lonely, directionless and confused for a while.

This is when you need support and that is what this website is for.

If someone creeping out of the cult, puts up a post, and gets attacked for being anonymous, rather than supported, then the forum is being counter-productive.

Pat, if you want to have a go at a PAM who lived it up in a flash hotel for weeks, paid for by the cult, have a go at me.

It was great. The food was lovely. So were the unlimited taxis, the weather was good. I was there for three weeks, paid luxury holiday.

It was great. Thanks premies. Not all your donations went into the fat gut of the Lord, some ended up in mine too.

Anth, the fat, greedy, superior (spiritually as well as physically) PAM.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 07:10:01 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Can I have my money back please?
Message:
Over the years I gave about $30,000. So I reckon you owe me $82.95. Full details of how I arrived at this figure are available on a scrap of paper on my desk in my bedroom in my house in the middle of the forest in northern Latvia.

Send the money to Barclays Bank, Bishop's Stortford. Account J.H.Brauns.

Thanks,

John who once bought a bar of chocolate while in the ashram.

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Date: Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 06:11:26 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I'll deduct it...
Message:
Over the years I gave about $30,000. So I reckon you owe me $82.95. Full details of how I arrived at this figure are available on a scrap of paper on my desk in my bedroom in my house in the middle of the forest in northern Latvia.

Send the money to Barclays Bank, Bishop's Stortford. Account J.H.Brauns.

Thanks,

John who once bought a bar of chocolate while in the ashram.


---

Hi John,

I'll deduct it from the bill for teaching your Master's children.

Anth, 'Didn't you used to teach Maharaji's children once. My God! What's happened to you.'

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 09:36:39 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: You decietful bleeder, JHB
Message:
I bet it was a bloody KING SIZE Mars bar too, huh?

...sheesh ..everywhere I look .....corruption, corruption, corruption.

-Dermot

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 13:46:03 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: No, it was a Marathon
Message:
But now renamed Snickers.

But I did have a job when I was in the ashram and gave ALL my wage to Divine Light Mission. Actually, I just remembered, one Sunday, we went to Southsea (from Brighton) to do propagation, you know selling Divine Times on the seafront, handing out leaflets, and engaging anybody who'd listen in tales about seeing God inside. Anyway, I used some of the money I had from selling Divine Times to buy an ice cream.

John the thoroughly corrupt.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 17:46:26 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Brighton
Message:
Those were the days. I was in the Brighton ashram, for a year, after it first opened. I remember walking up and down the promenade with a sandwich board, which was quite heavy. I don't think I knew you (I was called Katie Jones then). I remember that when we would pile into the car to go up to London for darshan, we would buy bags of sweets for post-darshan maintenance. It was the only time I ever ate chocolate, etc. back then. Don't know where the money came from. xxxxx
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 18:05:27 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Brighton
Message:
I was there for pretty much the whole of 1974. I guess you were there earlier. Do you remember Dave and Jenny Clark? Mike Cready? Tim.... forgotten his surname? Beth Burrell? That's all I can remember of premies who had been there earlier than me. Was the premie house that turned into an ashram York Villas?

Just a bunch of pointless questions:-)

John.

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Date: Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 01:43:01 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Brighton
Message:
Yeah, I was in York Villas in 1972. Then Mata Ji sent me to Spain, thank God. Mike Cready was I think the director when I was there. Wasn't Beth the owner of York Villas?

Are you really in Latvia?

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Date: Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 02:07:13 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@apollo.lv
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Brighton
Message:
No I don't think Beth owned the house - she has housemother when I arrived. Wasn't the owner an old lady (at least she seemed old to me then) who lived on the ground floor while DLM rented one room on the gound floor and the upper two floors? Her daughter was a premie but didn't join us for satsang very often.

Yes I really am in Latvia - that's what the .lv on my email address means:-) Anyway, must go and finish moving the horses' electric fence.

John.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 14:07:38 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: LOL!!! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 11:44:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: That's not fair
Message:
I bet it was a bloody KING SIZE Mars bar too, huh?

...sheesh ..everywhere I look .....corruption, corruption, corruption.

-Dermot


---

I don't think they made the King Size Mars Bars back then. Come on, Dermot, I know you have a thing about authority figures but he's got to walk on this one.

But John, we're watching you.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 12:30:36 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Typical lawyers response..
Message:
I know ..if you were defending John in court you'd just bedazzle the jury with the fact that there were no KING SIZERS and then veer them away from the real facts of the case.

One more crime would go unpunished.

Is there any hope for this Western civilisation of ours?

Some good ole Sharia law is what we need.....

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 22:42:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Yes, yes it was .... SO?????
Message:
Dermot,

I'm speechless. I'm also pissed off that we're all going to learn all the jargon and weird customs of yet another stupid religion.

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Date: Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 15:48:29 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But Sharia will solve all forum problems
Message:
No more food fights and bar-room brawls. We simply behead all offenders and of course all the women would have to wear those thingies over the mouths.
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Date: Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 12:15:41 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: All I can say, Jim
Message:
is ALLAH AKHBAR :)

NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 15:41:29 (EDT)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Anonymity redux - a suggestion for PAMs
Message:
Pat

I think that your suggestion makes a lot of sense, and totally agree with you about the value of named posts from (in my case) the 2 Michaels in helping me to take off my cult blinkers.

After my first post a few months ago, which was under a pseudonym since actually coming out in public against m left me feeling quite anxious and exposed after 29 years of very involved cult membership, you and one other ex wrote a message of welcome to me and invited me to e-mail you if I so chose. At the time, I had no sense at all of the nervousness experienced by members of this Forum in regard to moles and agents provacateurs (for want of better terms). It never entered my mind to therefore take up the offer of e-mailing, as I assumed that it was offered in case I felt in need of more support in my transition/escape. Incidentally, I still remember how I was trembling when I first clicked the 'Post Reply' button!

In hindsight, I now understand the unspoken agenda and realise that it may have been appropriate to have let someone know who I was. In fact, I dropped my pseudonym about 1 month later (again, quite a momentuous time for me). However, even now, since I'm not a very regular contributor, I sometimes have a sense of being an outsider, and not long ago, even though I have been posting for 8 or 9 months, I was very clearly challenged about my identity here on the Forum. I have to say that I felt quite strange about having to justify myself again publicly.

I suppose what I am getting round to saying, in a long-winded route, is that not all bona fide posters here are regular users of forums (fora?) - I have no interest whatsoever in joining any other forum and had no awareness of the etiquettes etc when I first started to contribute. Not sure I know too many of them even now. If I'd been challenged about my identity very early on, I'm sure I would have shrunk away at that time. It's a tricky issue, and one which demands really sensitive handling, if we are going to encourage more people to express themselves here.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:23:38 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Re: Anonymity redux - hi, Nick
Message:
Well, I went through two pseudonyms before I realized that the only thing to fear is fear itself and coming out actually eliminated my paranoia. But, as you said, we need to be sensitive.

I hope you are well and happy.

Cheers,

Pat

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 09:32:49 (EDT)
From: rob
Email: robert_elliottuk@yahoo.co.uk
To: All
Subject: knowledge has always worked for me...
Message:
Hi everyone, I received knowledge in 1995 and ever since, i have found practising it very beneficial. however, because of my natural dislike of cheesy music, bad paintings, group dynamics and religion (I know I'm hard to please :)), I never returned to any of Maharadji's events. Now I know I'm bad and I broke my promise - but I find that knowledge works pretty good without M's assistance. It also has been brought to my attention, that there are other, perhaps better techniques one can use to achieve similar states. Since I don't know much about yoga and meditation, I thought that perhaps one of you could give me some suggested reading or even practical tips....
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 05:09:41 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: rob
Subject: Santa always worked for me.
Message:
And the proof was there every Christmas morning.

If only I still believed, everything would be OK.

Anth, the Emporer is naked.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 22:43:30 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: rob
Subject: please speak in plain english
Message:
What does WORKS mean to you.
What have you heard inside.
What did you see inside.
What did you taste inside.
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 03:33:00 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: BILL...please speak in plain english
Message:
What does WORKS mean to you.
What have you heard inside.
What did you see inside.
What did you taste inside.


---

What do you mean 'Inside' ??

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 16:17:09 (EDT)
From: bill-Howdy Loaf
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: dang cultspeak got me agin! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 12:01:01 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: rob
Subject: Re: knowledge has always worked for me...
Message:
Hiya

pat C post a wonderful post many months ago about the techniques - and about the traditional order of them being incorrectly applied by M

What Pat suggested was that the following order is truer to the partice of yoga.. and that the techniques should follow an ascending order from the torso, up to the crown of the head..

I am sure he will explain all this a lot better.. or even have a copy of his original post, but for now :

The 'proper' order is :
firstly, # 3 (breath) focussing on the chest area + torso
second, #4 (nectar) focussing on the area of the throat
third #1 (light) focussing between the eyes on the forehead
fourth #2 (music) focussing on the crown of the head.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 10:04:42 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: rob
Subject: Re: knowledge has always worked for me...
Message:
Personally, I've found a distinction between what is termed as 'knowledge' and benefits gained from meditating. Meditating is sort of generic and nothing comes with it in the way of interpretation (i.e., where does it lead, what does it mean, where did it come from, etc.). 'Knowledge' on the other hand, hijacks an ordinary word to mean something exclusive and divine. 'Knowledge' interprets what happens in meditation as something spiritual and connects its success with some sort of evolution.

You don't have to believe anything to meditate, except perhaps that it's worth your time. Practicing 'Knowledge' implies knowing or experiencing or progressing with something specific like spirituality, divinity or God.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 15:45:39 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: knowledge has always worked for me...
Message:
I always thought the term ''people with knowledge'', was a tremendous put-down. What does that mean everyone else is, an imbecile? Rawat did not invent the word ''knowledge''. And his rape of the word ''knowledge'' infuriates me. Why doesn't he say, ''I will give you stolen ways to meditate and make you think you have been given something special and unique.'' That would, at least, be honest. Oh, I forgot. Honesty is not one of his 'things'. He is only an ''assguru'', nothing else.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:21:16 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hi Pam (Is a tiny curse in Church OK?)
Message:
When I noticed that you had posted, and I saw the responses, I thought, “Hey, here are some juicy stuff”. But I was a bit disappointed. Several times your friend Anth has told about your coming.

Whenever I read posts, I kind of smell. Somehow I can sense where someone is coming from. Sometimes I read people’s posts and “smell” they are sincere or at least they believe what they write. Sometimes I feel people are lying. Sometimes I even feel that some PWKs are not really honest.

Yesterday I read your post. . I find you sincere in the sense that you believes in what you writes. But that doesn’t make me believe everything you writes. When I read your post, one thing strikes me. And this thing, in my perspective is the same with a lot of exes. Their involvement in Knowledge was based on their belief and not on their experience. I have read lots and lots of testimonials of exes. In fact I am sorry to say this, I have not yet found anyone really inspired, inspirational – or happy. That is when I read between the lines.

I noticed that you (and exes) try to tell that things become better when you leave. I find this quite natural. They have been involved for “wrong reasons”; i.e. believing M is LOTU, believing that M would snap his fingers and there would be peace on earth or whatever. And some people have been into a power trip or a competition race to stay closest to M.

But in your post, Pam, I did not find any statements that you ever enjoyed the experience of Knowledge.

And when some people are leaving M, it is IMO like getting new clothes, because the old ones (and the lies to one self) stink. I have expressed this before, by saying that when people are confused, any decision will feel like a relief. The sad thing about this is the tendency to create a new “religion”- “let us save all the people who still THINK they enjoy Life and like M”. I think those people never asked to be saved.

I wonder, where you were when M in the “cleaning up process”, asked every PWK in positions to reconsider their involvement?

I am not a Pam. I am a “small guy” in EV. I am not a “church lady”. Am I a “gentleman of the church”? I don’t think so. In fact, I like to be a bit naughty and even curse a bit in a church. I even like when other people curse in a church. Maybe that is a reason why I for 25 years was not given an “important” position – even if believe it or not, I have some talents and gifts.

I have to give you credit for one thing you mention: The “secrecy issue”. Last year, as the representative of Norway, I was asked to attend a “conference call”. When we were told not to take notes, and not reveal any of those things we heard to anyone, I felt 2 reactions. First I felt “honoured” because finally I would hear some of the secrets behind the scene. Secondly, I felt a bit confused, what was the reason for me to listen, when I was supposed not to tell anyone else about what I heard. So at FC, I wrote to John Mc “something” (the Irish guy who had the call), and asked about my concerns. I told him that I did not find anything in my perspective that could be a potential danger to tell any other person about. I also told him that some years ago, I wrote a letter to M. In this letter, (I tried not to complain, but I described how it feels like when you have been working on an “urgent” project, even through the night to complete it, and then there is no response from the “leaders of EV in my country”.). I also told M, that it indeed feels very strange when the organisers in my country came home from conferences with M, and they had a secret smile on their face, but they never told anything about what M said.
What happened some weeks after this was interesting? (If it happened because of my letter to M, I dont know) Because suddenly, the top EV guy in my country called me, and said that M would have a international conference in the upcoming Long Beach program, and that M wanted to invite all people to this conference who were the “backbones of the communities”
BTW, John replied, and said it was Ok for me to tell others about what I heard. But since then, I have not been keen on attending conference calls.

As I see it, “secrecy” gives strength to those who are in power. And I see that this is changing in EV.

And it kind of dawns upon me; “What secrets are not yet revealed” To me it seems like the average ex, know the brand of Ms toilet paper so to speak.

I am by nature quite sceptical. I believe in what I see. One thing I find funny in your post is how you describe instructors or mahatmas. When I stumbled over the gates at Prem Nagar, once in the late autumn of 72, I was told that mahatmas were great souls. After a week or so, I discovered that some PWKs, were more inspired. So I figured that mahatmas were just ordinary human beings, who had been given the responsibility on behalf of M to reveal Knowledge. I figured that what happened in 74? When this mahatma smashed a hammer in the head of a person that this fact would load and clear tell everyone that mahatmas are very ordinary people. I have also met some “instructors”. Some of those are pretty common IMO.

So in the midst of the waves of the big sea, I try to cling to one simple formula. That is to recognize the gift of Knowledge so I may understand the gift of Life and for this I find my master inspiring. A few days ago, I listened to a program by M. I have to tell, I am proud of him. Every sentence he uttered, was dedicated to inspire me to enjoy the gift of Life.

If that fact makes a reason for some people to dislike him, so be it. I think he should be credited for that.

I could address a lot of things you write. I happen to believe you are for real, you are a middle aged woman, probably unmarried and you see that your involvement has brought you nowhere, Probably you are a nice personality, but I sense that there is not exactly a cue in front of your tent. And I think you are the friend of Anth – if so, he spoke of you several times. If I am wrong I apologize.

When you write; “M's 'doubtmaker' is actually your self. Your discrimination. Your identity. His 'Knowledge' is actually the illusion. “ I think anyone who really have found something in his or her inner landscape at all, will strongly disagree with you about this. (Even every so-called “enlightened soul” in the history of mankind, I think would say you missed something big.) And when you describe meditation – the ear part -, I realize we our perspectives of meditation differ with “light years”. So if you want to advice people in matters regarding the “inner self”, I think you should not give up your day job.

Why am I still involved in M and his Knowledge? Because I enjoy Knowledge and enjoy listen to M. In my life I need inspiration and clarity. Frankly, no one else than M has been really been able to provide me those things. When I listen to him or practices, it is like I feel I am given 2-sided sword that cuts all my doubts away. The name of that sword is clarity. In fact, if I feel one bubble of joy, even hear one song in my heart or there is one moment where I feel fulfilled, when I practice, I am very grateful.

So, if you happen to follow Ms advice, “If you don’t like it, please leave”, I think that is good for you. But never try to say to me; I should leave, because you did find what you were searching for. Because what I found, brings me at least some joy every day. And I am always very sceptical to people who talk shit about other persons behind their back. Even if they don’t mention the names of those they talk about. And especially when they are anonymous.

So take care and whatever you do, at least try to enjoy your journey. Life is too great, to spend moaning and groaning about other people.

Best regards Bjørn (a 'flawed character' who was allowed to post by Gerry)

.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 22:51:00 (EDT)
From: bill-Dont start a new thead
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: just to respond to another thread. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:45:11 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: All
Subject: e-mail address for epo? jhb?
Message:
John, I can't find an e-mail link for you/admin at epo.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:06:04 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: jhb@ex-premie.org
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: e-mail address for epo? jhb?
Message:
or webmaster@ex-premie.org. Simple really, and the Feedback link on just about every page seems to work quite well:-)

John.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:27:48 (EDT)
From: don
Email: None
To: All
Subject: björns post on LG
Message:
I thought this is a sensible post that everyone
should read:
(Previous Message) (Next Message) (Next Thread) (View Entire Thread) (Message List)
Posted: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:10:08 (EDT)
Original: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 11:52:25 (EDT)
Posted by: Bjørn E Recipient: gerry

Subject: Hi Gerry
Message:

When I read posts, I kind of smell. Somehow I can sense where someone is coming from. Sometimes I read people’s posts and they are sincere or at least they believe what they write. Sometimes I feel some people are lying. Even PWK's. But I thank you for your post and concern.

Yesterday I read the post of Pam. I find her sincere in the sense that she believes in what she writes. But that doesn’t make me believe everything she writes. When I read her post, one thing strikes me. And this thing, in my perspective is the same with a lot of exes. Their involvement in Knowledge was based on their belief and not on their experience. I have read lots and lots of testimonials of exes. In fact I am sorry to say this, I have not yet found anyone really inspired – or happy. (Even not you Katie Darling my old friend – “Happy-EX”)

I noticed that Pam (and exes) try to tell that things become better when they leave. I find this quite natural. They have been involved for “wrong reasons”; i.e. believing M is LOTU, believing that M would snap his fingers and there would be peace on earth or whatever. And some people are into a power trip. In Pam’s post I did not find any statements that she ever enjoyed the experience of Knowledge.

So leaving is IMO like getting new clothes, because the old ones (and the lies to one self) stink. I have expressed this before, by saying that when people are confused, any decision will feel like a relief. That sad thing about this, is the new “religion”- “let us save all the people who still THINK they enjoy”. I think those people never asked to be saved.

I am not a Pam. I am a “small guy” in EV. I am not a “church lady”. Am I a “gentleman of the church”? I don’t think so. In fact, I like to be a bit naughty and even curse a bit in a church. I even like when other people curse n a church. Maybe that is a reason why I for 25 years was not given an “important” position – even if believe it or not, I have some talents and gifts. At least that is what my theraphst tells me.

Yet I am involved. Why? Because I enjoy Knowledge and enjoy listen to M. In my life I need inspiration and clarity. Frankly, no one else than M has been really been able to provide me those things. When I listen to him or practices, it is like I feel he has handed me a 2-sided sword that cuts all my doubts away. The name of that sword is clarity. I fact, if I feel one bubble of joy, even hear one song in my heart or one moment where I feel fulfilled, when I practice, I am very grateful.

I recently decided not to post anymore. That was from personal reasons as I found the price too high. The main reasons were 2 things. First I realized there is a total waste of time to argue with people who are dishonest. I got another proof of that, when someone I “discussed” with, lied about 2 things, and even if I gave a chance for the person to correct his proven lies, he has chosen not to. In fact he made another lie, when I stopped posting.
Yesterday, I posted at the F7. I have made a deal with you Gerry not to post there. So I asked for your permission to post a more or less OT next week. (It would be about justice and some thoughts). Maybe will do that, maybe will post one post to Pam later today. I’ll chew on it.

The thread was deleted, but I noticed before the post was deleted, Anth and Cynthia replied and actually both asked for Gerry not to allow me to post there. Anth said I just would bring myself into trouble, but I found most interesting to read Cynthia’s comments. She said the moment she saw Abi posting, she knew 'Bjorn' would post. Actually Cynthia, the opposite is the case, because I kind of sensed what would follow. (Sometimes I wonder if I am a bit clairvoyant). And I did not want to be “involved”. Why? Because this case makes me depressed, the reason is a mixture of what I know and have witnessed, and also the fact that I was sexually abused as a kid.
When someone at F7 discussed my stopping posting, , they said something like someone had touched some sore points in me. In one way they were correct, but don’t think they knew my real reasons.

My nature is quite sceptical. I believe in what I see. One thing I find funny in Pam’s post, is how he describes instructors or mahatmas. When I came to Prem Nagar, once in the late autumn of 72, I was told that mahatmas were great souls. After a week, I discovered that some PWKs, were more inspired. So I figured that mahatmas were just ordinary human beings, who had been given the responsibility on behalf of M to reveal Knowledge. I figured that what happened in 74? when this mahatma smashed a hammer in the head of a person that this fact would load and clear tell everyone that mahatmas are very ordinary people. I have also met some “instructors”. Some of those are pretty common IMO.

So in the midst of this and what happens, is that I try to cling to one simple formula. That is to recognize the gift of Knowledge so I may understand the gift of Life and for this I find my master inspiring. A few days ago, I listened to a program by M. I have to tell, I am proud of him. Every sentence he uttered, was dedicated to inspire me to enjoy the gift of Life.

If that is a reason for people to dislike him, so be it.
I probably will not post anymore. Enjoying Life is much more fun.

Bjørn a “flawed” character who is what he is.

Your Name:
Subject:
Your Email:

Quoted Message:

When I read posts, I kind of smell. Somehow I can sense where someone is coming from. Sometimes I read people’s posts and they are sincere or at least they believe what they write. Sometimes I feel some people are lying. Even PWK's. But I thank you for your post and concern.

Yesterday I read the post of Pam. I find her sincere in the sense that she believes in what she writes. But that doesn’t make me believe everything she writes. When I read her post, one thing strikes me. And this thing, in my perspective is the same with a lot of exes. Their involvement in Knowledge was based on their belief and not on their experience. I have read lots and lots of testimonials of exes. In fact I am sorry to say this, I have not yet found anyone really inspired – or happy. (Even not you Katie Darling my old friend – “Happy-EX”)

I noticed that Pam (and exes) try to tell that things become better when they leave. I find this quite natural. They have been involved for “wrong reasons”; i.e. believing M is LOTU, believing that M would snap his fingers and there would be peace on earth or whatever. And some people are into a power trip. In Pam’s post I did not find any statements that she ever enjoyed the experience of Knowledge.

So leaving is IMO like getting new clothes, because the old ones (and the lies to one self) stink. I have expressed this before, by saying that when people are confused, any decision will feel like a relief. That sad thing about this, is the new “religion”- “let us save all the people who still THINK they enjoy”. I think those people never asked to be saved.

I am not a Pam. I am a “small guy” in EV. I am not a “church lady”. Am I a “gentleman of the church”? I don’t think so. In fact, I like to be a bit naughty and even curse a bit in a church. I even like when other people curse n a church. Maybe that is a reason why I for 25 years was not given an “important” position – even if believe it or not, I have some talents and gifts. At least that is what my theraphst tells me.

Yet I am involved. Why? Because I enjoy Knowledge and enjoy listen to M. In my life I need inspiration and clarity. Frankly, no one else than M has been really been able to provide me those things. When I listen to him or practices, it is like I feel he has handed me a 2-sided sword that cuts all my doubts away. The name of that sword is clarity. I fact, if I feel one bubble of joy, even hear one song in my heart or one moment where I feel fulfilled, when I practice, I am very grateful.

I recently decided not to post anymore. That was from personal reasons as I found the price too high. The main reasons were 2 things. First I realized there is a total waste of time to argue with people who are dishonest. I got another proof of that, when someone I “discussed” with, lied about 2 things, and even if I gave a chance for the person to correct his proven lies, he has chosen not to. In fact he made another lie, when I stopped posting.
Yesterday, I posted at the F7. I have made a deal with you Gerry not to post there. So I asked for your permission to post a more or less OT next week. (It would be about justice and some thoughts). Maybe will do that, maybe will post one post to Pam later today. I’ll chew on it.

The thread was deleted, but I noticed before the post was deleted, Anth and Cynthia replied and actually both asked for Gerry not to allow me to post there. Anth said I just would bring myself into trouble, but I found most interesting to read Cynthia’s comments. She said the moment she saw Abi posting, she knew 'Bjorn' would post. Actually Cynthia, the opposite is the case, because I kind of sensed what would follow. (Sometimes I wonder if I am a bit clairvoyant). And I did not want to be “involved”. Why? Because this case makes me depressed, the reason is a mixture of what I know and have witnessed, and also the fact that I was sexually abused as a kid.
When someone at F7 discussed my stopping posting, , they said something like someone had touched some sore points in me. In one way they were correct, but don’t think they knew my real reasons.

My nature is quite sceptical. I believe in what I see. One thing I find funny in Pam’s post, is how he describes instructors or mahatmas. When I came to Prem Nagar, once in the late autumn of 72, I was told that mahatmas were great souls. After a week, I discovered that some PWKs, were more inspired. So I figured that mahatmas were just ordinary human beings, who had been given the responsibility on behalf of M to reveal Knowledge. I figured that what happened in 74? when this mahatma smashed a hammer in the head of a person that this fact would load and clear tell everyone that mahatmas are very ordinary people. I have also met some “instructors”. Some of those are pretty common IMO.

So in the midst of this and what happens, is that I try to cling to one simple formula. That is to recognize the gift of Knowledge so I may understand the gift of Life and for this I find my master inspiring. A few days ago, I listened to a program by M. I have to tell, I am proud of him. Every sentence he uttered, was dedicated to inspire me to enjoy the gift of Life.

If that is a reason for people to dislike him, so be it.
I probably will not post anymore. Enjoying Life is much more fun.

Bjørn a “flawed” character who is what he is.

Your Reply:

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.. gerry to bjorn Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 11:52:25 (EDT)
. Bjørn E Hi Gerry Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:10:08 (EDT)
. CD Re: to perspective Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 15:39:53 (EDT)
. gerry Re: to perspective Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:52:57 (EDT)
. CD Re: to perspective Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:13:32 (EDT)
. Dermot I like that Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:57:29 (EDT)


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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 06:54:21 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: don
Subject: Re: björns post on LG
Message:
Bjorn says

'In my life I need inspiration and clarity. Frankly, no one else than M has been really been able to provide me those things. When I listen to him or practices, it is like I feel he has handed me a 2-sided sword that cuts all my doubts away. The name of that sword is clarity. I fact, if I feel one bubble of joy, even hear one song in my heart or one moment where I feel fulfilled, when I practice, I am very grateful.'

'Inspiration and clatity' is great....but looking for someone else to provide them is exactly the problem. As long as you look for someone else you are avoiding reading the book of your own life, abrogating the responsibility if you like.

This endless routine of wanting to have 'the experience' is what blocks us from tasting freedom. There will remain the 'I' that wants and the thing to be attained. The vastness of life comes when self-interest is in abeyance...notice how it comes unexpected and uncalled for...no method no master and no desire.

This treadmill of seeking peace, contentment, and satisfaction rather than observing what actually is going on is what Gurus and Masters feed on. That is why M is fairly obviously discontented in his own life. The pupil makes an idiot of the master and vice versa.

I can hear myself speaking in Bjorn's post (20 years ago) and can palpably relive the duality that us poor premies used to go through. Remember those Satsangs 'One part of me wants to serve Guru Maharaji and the other part......'

Anyway best wishes to you Bjorn
Tim

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 10:54:17 (EDT)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Bjorn,how about this, for starters..
Message:
Hey Bjorn-

I've got Norwegian roots myself, so I guess we have some sort of bond.

However, for starters, (and there's lots more, but lets just start with these two interesting comments of yours), can you please explain to me how premies who 'got involved for the wrong reasons' got these concepts...

1-believing M is LOTU

Excuse me, but wasn't it M himself who proclaimed himself to be the lord of the universe?
Do you remember the silly buttons that he had produced that showed his picture with LOTU printed on them? (they were out in the early 70's, around the same time the 'rainbow' butons came out)

How about early literature, proclaiming himself the lord of the universe?
His satsangs, talking about himself as lord...the most powerful incarnation of god to ever incarnate? (I never was sure how one could measure that, but he said it)

He would rule the earth?

And of course, if you didn't believe this, you had 'doubts' which you would avoid like the plague....and if you entertained doubts, and possibly questioned and gave up the practice, your mind would become like rotting vegetables, or you would shatter into a million pieces and never be put together again....

Now wouldn't you say that it was M himself who told us this?

2-Believing M would snap his fingers and there would be peace on earth....

Wasn't it M himself who assured us many times over that he was the one who was here to bring peace on earth?
That 'the bombs would fall' if we didn't spread this knowledge fast enough?
That if he had 'one real devotee' he could spread knowledge to the whole world in a year? (yes, that was a quote of his)

I don't get it Bjorn....

Premies believed these things because M told them these things, and also told them to not doubt him.
(He still says the same things about doubt....'never doubt the purity of the master'....this year in Miami)

Now you say that premies who believed those things 'were in it for the wrong reasons'?

You can't have it both ways, Bjorn....

Premies believed thosse things because the man who told them that he was the most powerful incarnation of god to ever walk the earth also told them to never doubt him.

That's where they got those 'concepts', which you now state were 'the wrong reasons' to get into m and k.....the 'wrong reasons' all came from him....

Now he tries to blame it on the mahatmas...

And you try to blame it on the premies bad judgement or insincerity...

This 'revisionist history' just doesn't work...your attempts are transparent, and easily shown to be just that by a simple review of m's statements....

How about you and your master taking some personal responsibility for the things you say that are not only misleading, but just plain wrong?

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:25:59 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: Hi Jim S
Message:
Some of these questions you mention I have discussed under various threads at Life is great. You will find it there if it is not deleted. It is boring to repeat the same things over and over again, dont you think?

I am comfortable in what I have described. What I think is my business. I am by nature sceptical - which means I believe in what I see. Thus I agree that you can't have it two ways. Like when M says 'God is Light' ' God is omnipresent' 'God is energy' etc. and then from my magazine from 71 says - 'I am not God' 'I am a human being'

But great news if you dislike what I write! I talked to my wife today, and she asked me to stop writing about M. She dont like that even if she doesn't practice K. (Although she always comes to programs with M and enjoys them.) I think you could say we love each other. Tuesday we have been married for 25 years. So I will try my best to respect her request. And BTW I think it is a waste of time and energy to discuss soemthing that is personal and is even not discussable.

Best in Life to you

Bjørn

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 14:09:07 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: You're wasting your time, Jim S.
Message:
Hi Jim,

Bjorn's been down this road before. Has he ever! But he'll never admit the most basic facts of Maharaji's history. It's funny, you start your post mentioning your Norwegian roots as something common you share with Bjorn. It's natural to do that, I guess, to try to establish some basis for trust and understanding to build upon in discussion. But, fact is, you've got a much stronger common experience with Bjorn, I'd wager, just in the fact that you've both been premies for years. The sad fact, though, is that Bjorn is not honest enough to really acknowledge that common experience. Your post assumes that he is. It assumes that you can talk to him like a regular, honest human being. You can't.

It's like this. I went to this snobby prep school in Toronto for two years, Upper Canada College. This is the hoity toity establishment high school for boys in Canada. I was there for grades nine and ten and happy to escape. Recently, the school's been rocked by scandal as boys are coming forth alleging that one of the teachers was a pedophile and that the school didn't do enough to protect them at the time. So say I bump into another 'old boy' and we start talking. I'm sure I'd assume that he'd approach the subject in good faith and thus there would acknowledge certain facts as indisputable. The climate of authoritarianism there, for intance. To me, anyone who attended UCC in the late sixties would simply have to agree, the school was exactly like that. That was its heritage, its core identity. That was the whole point of it, really. It's character, if you will.

But what if this 'old boy' I ran into was very defensive about the scool? He might, to my great surprise and disappointment, deny this most basic fact. Or, even more perverse, he might accuse me, I guess, of bringing my own sense of authoritarianism or something. Or he might say that there were one or two rogue teachers who were that way but that it would hardly be fair to blame the shool for any sort of oppressive atmosphere. In short, he could lie. And, if he did, all that common history's worthless. There's no basis for real communication with a liar.

Bjorn is that liar. Make no mistake, he knows the truth. He just can't face it. Don't be fooled by his apparent civility or respectful tone, usually hallmarks of honesty and credibility. Like other cult apologists, CD for instance, Bjorn talks softly but he carries a big grudge and that grudge overwhelms his sense of honesty. He's unreachable.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:35:33 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thinking doesnt change the
Message:
weather, Jim. Facts are facts. Our thougths are free.

That is what I think, but I suppose you will disagree with anything I say.
Bye and take care ..remember we only live once (I think) and there is nothing to take for granted.
Bjørn, (the one and only you always called 'fucking asshole' and the most stupid person you ever met)

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:47:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Re: Thinking doesnt change the
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:49:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, good riddance
Message:
Bjorn,

Yes, life's precious. All the more reason I hope I never hear a single word from you again. You don't have the basic honesty I look for in people, Bjorn. You're slimy in that respect. So, is this for keeps at last? Hopefully.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 00:49:40 (EDT)
From: Guy Rollins
Email: guy@architx.com
To: All
Subject: Chai?
Message:
Does anyone have a good chai recipe? How many cardaman seeds....

I'd appreciate it -- more now than I used to in the ashram days.

If you would email me directly that would be helpful.

Thanks in advance...hope this isn't too LITE for EPO.

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 08:01:07 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: if it's recipes you're after ...
Message:
There's loads at:
http://www.odie.org/chai/recipes.html

There is no end to the diversity of recipes for
making your own chai. Chai recipes are like
Italian minestrone soup - its always good but
everyone's recipe is different. Brewing chai is
fun and allows you to experiment until you get
it 'just right' for your personal taste. We have
collected recipes from around the world to
help you in your quest for the perfect
'heavenly chai'.

Chai is basically black tea brewed with
selected spices and milk. Each ingredient
adds subtle flavor changes and brewing
methods vary widely.

http://www.odie.org/chai/recipes.html

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 03:45:23 (EDT)
From: Joy
Email: joyfenwick@onetel.net.uk
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Here's what I used to make for Jagdeo
Message:
Hi Guy. Joy here (from the typesetting room, circa 1973-79). During my brief hiatus from typesetting into cooking for mahatmas (including the notorious Jagdeo, who used to demand peppermint tea, btw, not chai), this is my very simple and easy-to-make chai recipe (taught by Anu, who used to cook for M):

Put in a pan half milk, half water. Add one tea bag per person, and several cardamom pods (say two per person), opened up so the seeds fall out, shells and all. Use the small green ones with the black seeds. Bring to a boil and strain. Add sugar in the cups if necessary. Happy sipping!

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 22:53:57 (EDT)
From: bill-did m flip out on your freind
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: when the 707 ebony trim 'blued' in Montreal? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 20:47:29 (EDT)
From: Brian S.
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Re: Chai?
Message:
The internet is a great resource for this kind of info, this site is a great resource for info about exiting the cult.

Now fix yourself a good cup of chai and think about what is being shared here.
[ Chai recipes ]

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 03:34:10 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian S.
Subject: That was a sly chai recipe ;) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 14:26:07 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Re: Chai?
Message:
never seen so much shit written about making tea.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:10:45 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: [Blank]
Subject: Re Chai?Its NOT tea its CHAI !! knucklehead. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:09:57 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: [Blank]
Subject: Re Chai? It NOT CHAI !! knucklehead. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:11:55 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: never mind sheesh [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 21:41:37 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: yeah, take that you too
Message:
I see you have a dgree in linguistic. cahi is tea, whether you like it or not.

and what is wrong with Lipton tea bags anyway, knucklehead?

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 23:36:43 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: [Blank]
Subject: Re: yeah, take that you too
Message:
.......humph )-\
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 22:47:31 (EDT)
From: Mummiji
Email: None
To: [Blank]
Subject: You can't hide from me, Saucykins!! :|
Message:
Now why are you bothering Zelda?!! If you aren't polite to at least the young women, how on earth will you ever find a nice one to settle down with and make your poor long-suffering Mummiji happy in her old-age. Oy Vey, Saucy!!! By your Great Great Great Grandfathers's Infinite Turban, I'm sounding like a Jewish Mummiji!! :O

I think I'll go have a nice cup of Chai and go to bed.

Nighty night, and don't let the bedbugs bite you or Tyson! :)

Lovijis and hugsijis,

Your Mummiji

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 23:43:17 (EDT)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: Mummiji
Subject: Re: You can't hide from me, Saucykins!! :|
Message:
he WAS being indescribably difficult!!
snif
I m quite vexed. drives a girl to vinegar and brown paper.....
)):->>
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 13:22:28 (EDT)
From: Mummiji
Email: None
To: zelda
Subject: Believe me, I know what you mean! :)
Message:
I have to confess that some of it is my fault - it's hard to remember to check that all your children's heads are screwed on right, and now that he lives so far away from me ... sniff ... well it weighs so on my poor lonely heart sometimes! My Saucy had always been a happy boy, but then he got involved with that Guru Marshmallow kid, and well ... I know you know how that can affect one's life! So, what can I say, he gets a little crabby sometimes, as you noticed. I'm so sorry, dear. I just can't understand what got into him when he poked at your post! It's all beyond me sometimes!

Now, what do you do with the vinegar and brown paper? It might help me too, at times like these. I was sipping on my chia last night, and for the life of me I couldn't figure it out! Is that some 'modern' expression? BTW, I always think of those cute 'chia' heads that Sir Dave posted last year when I sip my chia! ;) And I love your headsen at the bottom ... it's quite unique!

Lovijis and hugsijis,

Saucy's Mummiji

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:34:58 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Chaieeeeeeeeeee.
Message:
This should make about 3 mugs of chai.

Put 4 or 5 cardomons and 3 or 4 slices of fresh ginger in 1 - 2 mugs of cold water and boil them for a minute or two in an open saucepan.

Add a couple of black tea bags and boil for a further minute or so. Don't use loose tea unless you put it in a metal container or tie it up in a bit of cloth, like they do in India.

Add a generous amount of white sugar (chinny) and boil for another minute or so.

Add 1 - 2 mugs of fresh, whole milk.

Bring the chai to the boil. Let it rise to the top of the pan, then remove from heat and let it go down. Boil it up to the top of the pan twice more, then decant to mug.

Take the tea bags out before you pour, otherwise they get in the way.

Careful, it's hot.

You can play around with adding things like aniseed, vanilla, or whatever, to your taste.

If you make tea for a vacuum flask, it always has a strange taste it picks up from the flask. If you make chai instead, you lose that 'flasky taste'.

Anth the PG Tips.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:14:34 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Does it work with soymilk?
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 05:06:03 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Nothing works with soya milk. (nt)
Message:
not worth a bean
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 07:51:14 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Oh yes it does Anth!
Message:
It makes lovely banana milkshakes or strawberry, and cappuchino and frothy chocolate and sauces etc etc. I wrote you a post in a now disappeared thread asking you about the premie rebellion in Amaroo that you mentioned. Can you tell me more I did not know about it. Also do you mind saying which bit of Cornwall you live in? I love it there so much just hearing about it is good.
magiclara
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Date: Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 05:51:12 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Re: Oh yes it does Anth!
Message:
Hiya Soya head,

One of my oldest pals has a tofu factory in York, and I used to make my own soya milk, tofu, and burgers with mash that's left (I can't remember the name of it).

Nowadays my taste has changed somewhat. Have you ever tried 'fromage de tete'?

I live on the South East Coast of Cornwall, on the Rame Peninsular, in a wooden cabin on the side of a cliff. I'm hiding out from society, planning the rest of my life. Trouble is, I keep losing the bit of paper with the plan on. Where do you live magiclara?

Anth on the edge.

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Date: Tues, Oct 16, 2001 at 10:16:22 (EDT)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Oh yes it does Anth!
Message:
Hi Cheese Face
Rame penninsula eh. Isn't that where that premie enclave is? I love all of Cornwall and go there every year to visit freinds, and trapse about a bit on my own before I get to them. I live in Liverpool my adopted home. I like the sound of your cliffside cabin. I do a fair ammount of hiding out myself. I lost the paper years ago though. Fromage de tete is a new one on me. I assume it is cheese. I like cheese but don't have it very often as dairy products don't agree with me. Tofu is the most disgusting thing. I dislike it intensly. So what did happen at the premie rebellion in Amaroo? I was always a rebellious premie myself.
magiclara
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 07:15:07 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Nothing works with soya milk. (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 07:18:38 (EDT)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: It's better than cow snot :)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 09:32:41 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: Re: Does it work with soymilk? Yes it does.
Message:
I would use lots of ginger, cardamom and cinnamon a few black peppercorns a clove or two at most.You can make it by boiling in the milk but I prefer to boil the spices in a little water then add boiled milk and steep the tea in the combination. Thats because i don't like strong tea. I also sweeten with honey and use any kind of tea that does'nt curdle.. but then I'm wierd.

Good luck

Peg

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 04:46:47 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: PS.
Message:
This is my favorite type of thread. Maybe we could start a Recent Exes Recipe Swapping Forum. Nice friendly recipes, but no flambes.

Anth, the burnt out poached egg.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:58:51 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth's chai's awful
Message:
Cinnamon and a touch of vanilla makes it sweeter.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 08:08:09 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I dunno...
Message:
you invite these foreign bastards round to your house, they eat all your curry, drink all your wine, kip on your sofa, 'borrow' half your cassette collection, tell you you're their best friend in the whole wide world. Then the next thing is, they're stabbing you in the back on the internet, betraying confidences, creating scandal, and sullying your good name to all and sundry.

Anth, where's me Harry Potter book? I'm depressed.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 13:03:15 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Poor Anth, this just because
Message:
You're a Brit and don't know anything about cooking .....
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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 05:08:20 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hmmmn.
Message:
We may not know how to cook, but we definitely know how to play music.

Anthice Chevalier Halliday.

OK, you've got Leo Ferre, I admit it.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:10:14 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Re: Chai-here ya go
Message:
hi guy. where ya been lately? you should pop in more often!

chai--you start with milk in a pot and heat it but not let it get to boiling. a double boiler with water in the bottom one and the milk in the upper one keeps it from getting any hotter than 212°.
You use black tea, either in bags or loose, as strong as you like it. some like it stiff, some like it mild. a heaping tablespoon per cup, and one extra for the pot, is the usual rule of thumb.

as for the spicing, you can buy ready mixed chai herbs in the health food stores, in bags you can steep in regular boiled tea water, if you're on the go, and just put the milk in like youdo to coffee or regular tea, after it's steeped. but if you're making it from scratch, you can use the bags and tear them open into the pot. again--one bag per cup you're making. a cup is 8 ounces, so 2 bags for 16 oz, 3 for 24 , 4 to a quart. 8 is 2 quarts, 16 is a gallon. you can do the math from there.

you can be finicky and measure, or do it by feel and instinct.

remember--traditional--hot milk, put in tea and spices after hot, strain out to serve and drink.


---
modern fast paced
---
, microwave a cup of water, drop in tea bag, add milk and sweetening after steeped.

hope dat helps. i missed chai too. it was nice finding it again, minus the froufrou and all the ridiculous ritual.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 01:55:44 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Guy Rollins
Subject: Re: Chai? few hints
Message:
Also use vanilla, cinnamon, ginger ....
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 03:56:27 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Chai? and if you like it piquant...
Message:
...add one clove per cup and a pinch of cayenne. Cardamon, ginger, cinnamon and clove are the basics. I like J-M's touch of vanilla but prefer rose or almond oil. The cayenne is for palates jaded by chillie peppers. Remember to make notes of your formulas...er...recipes....so that you can improve it each time to suit your taste by adjusting the quantities.

If you make it with boiling water instead of milk then it's best to add either half-and-half or whipping cream or, as is commonly done in Indian households, sweetened condensed milk. It's luxurious to top it off with a bit of rose flavored whipped cream but decadent Indian matriarchs prefer dollops of ghee.

Of course you could simply buy ''Bengal Spice'' tea....that commercial thingy and add a dollop of brandy or a liqueur to get rid of the commercial vibrations but it is essential to drink it with ladus...remember those ladus...or was it camel dung?....I forget. ;)

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 05:34:39 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: FA - lock this thread because
Message:
I suddenly feel that I can't express myself here with all these off topic posts.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:28:05 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: Dave, you need a cup of tea...
Message:
...take 4 cardomons, 3 or 4 slices of ginger, two tea bags, 1000mg of Lysergic Acid, I tab of ecstasy, a tablespoon of Marmite, 10 grams of good hash, 2 oz of butter, and a 6v battery.

Anth with another PG Tip.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:24:54 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: Extra kick
Message:
My Indian friends add only cardamon, sugar, lemon grass and white pepper! It has such a punch that I'm sure any virus is instantly anhiliated (sp). The tea at the Indian shops is stronger than ordinary stuff, and seems to give it a more robust flavor. My favorite restaurant adds a bit of fennel. But the main trick is the boiling of the milk, it brings out the sweetness.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:26:03 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: P.S. Forgot the ginger
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 10:37:43 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Chai??
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 10:37:16 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Chai??i??i??i??i??
Message:
I lost my post.

Whatever.

Hi Guy, how are you, hope you're well.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:22:13 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: All
Subject: THEN LET'S DO IT!!!
Message:
Hey everyone, Abi said a foundation for helping kids abused by cults is a good idea (see thread below, I don't know how to bring it up). There is so much intelligence and capability here on this forum to tap into legalities and monies.
This would give her a respected avenue to address all the sordid things done to children and provide help. We can do the grunt the work and let Abi take it in whatever way she feels is the most dignified and healing.

Ya all ready for something real to happen?

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:38:06 (EDT)
From: P.S.
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: real name
Message:
I will no longer be posting under'btdt' but will use my real name which is Vicki.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 15:17:00 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: P.S.
Subject: Re: real name
Message:
thanks vickie, as everyone here knows by now i feel strongly that useing our real names adds so much more credibility to this site and its contents. why to go!
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:39:46 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: P.S.
Subject: Ta da, for your bravery! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:36:35 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Uhhh, I hate to play into Jim's hands here but ...
Message:
Dear btdt,

You are posting on this Forum anonymously. That's all well and good if that's what you need to do. But how can you talk about such grandiose plans when we don't even know who you are? Do you have any idea what it takes to start a foundation? How many hours of work, and infusions of capital, fundraising, etc.? Foundations are usually formed around at least one person who practically dedicates their life to the cause.

P.S. Jim and Pat :C), I do see your point somewhat on the anonymous issue.

Bests,

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:41:39 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: see my p.s. post
Message:
Perfectly understandable. I have fully extricated myself from all Elan Vital duties and therefore, hip hip horray for me, I feel comfortable using my own name.

Yes, I do understand what is involved in starting a foundation. A lot of hard work, for starters. But can you think of a more worthwhile cause? I personally can't stand the fact that money I gave m and ev helped fly this vulture around the world to commit these crimes.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:49:30 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Congratulations
Message:
Vicki,

I did not mean to imply that you should come 'out' until it was the proper time for you, only that it's hard to do 'real' work in the world while we remain anonymous.

I had no idea you were in the extrication process. Congratulations, my dear. I have been out for years but have folks that are still 'in.' Certainly hindered my exit process, because it is hard to think of how wrong the whole thing is when folks you love are still so enamored of the whole thing.

But it was a good thing. At some point, I need to think for myself, as Chuck S. said so eloquently below, without needing validation from others. Conversely, I can still think that something is total horshite and love people who can't see it my way.

Best wishes to you,

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:10:45 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 11,000 page views in last 30 hours NT
Message:
Hmmm
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:25:17 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: 11,000 page views- what do you mean? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:30:01 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Re: 11,000 page views- what do you mean?
Message:
"Page views" are the industry standard for setting advertising rates. It's the number of times a page is read by someone. They used to be called "hits" but that became inaccurate when links on the same page started being counted as hits. Anyway, it's a lot of page reads for a little backwater bayou like this.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:49:38 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I know what it means
Message:
to the bottom line anyway, in this aspect the webmaster is billed according to the # of page reads. Usually this is a set fee per 25,000 page reads but it does add up over time.

Considering that this is a very active site, keep that in mind as another of the webmasters responsibilities on top of the other concerns that goes with the job.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:34:44 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: 11,000 page views!
Message:
wow. so that must mean that there are alot of lurkers.
There must be 50-60 regular posters here ? the mind boggles at the math.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 03:05:50 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: bet it was 'Pam's report
Message:
its truly powerful when someone at the top leaves and tells the truth.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:31:21 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: No, it's the Chai thread. (nt)
Message:
no tea
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:48:11 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The single minded trap
Message:
reading Francesca's reply to PAM down below has spurred me to re-iterate and re-examine what I posted a few days ago on Recent Exes... that the fixation upon the self and M alone is a dangerous single note symphony to play...

The Question asked was : Where do we find our Joy ?

And my thoughts have inspired me to realise the cost of the self-seeking and seperate path, in which 'I' am removed from 'This world'....suddenly - instead o knowing or acknowledging in theory the human cost of M-centric 'divide and conquor' living... I got a brief flash of insight into what it has cost.

I realise the truth that I seem to have never really met anybody else. Every interraction I have ever had has been like 'ships that pass in the night' - I dont mean in the usual sense, but in the sense that I am seperate from them, and they are unknowable to me and they affect me only in so far as they collide with my headlong course.

In my memory, it seems it has always been this way. I remember tripping on magic mushrooms before getting K and realising that other people were 'out of bounds' or seperate from me.

This is not to imply that I am not an empathetic person... I am simply expressing the realisations I am having sparked by examining premie bliss in the light of almost autistic self absorbtion.

It makes me feel lonely... an only child, playing with his toys in an imaginary world. Imaginary friends. Something in me, very young, submitted itself to the thought that I would never have anybody, I would always be alone, and has gone about compensating for that ever since... and along comes Revd Rawat and puts his finger on the spot.

The isolation of Knowledge then - and the mono-vision of maha Mania was such a homecoming to me. It was a relief not to have to pretend to be interested in 'small talk'. I could invest myself inside my bubble... and the world, and other people were their own problems.

This aloofness, is immature. I have been in suspended animation for 20 years - the seperateness of the concept of INNER is dangerous. Where do we get our joy ?

The question is a good one, because it exposes the myth (and the truth) at the heart of Knowledge. Until we have expanded ourselves to find joy in others, in society, in work - there will be this immature person within who will respond with delight at Rawat's suggestion that the war is over.... that the world and others are irrelevant to the 'real' truth, and that INNER is more real than Outer.

I wonder how many Professors, statesmen (and women), successful and fulfilled mothers, fathers, businesspeople, inventors, authors, sculptors, actors, engineers, farmers, fire-fighters, doctors, publishers, film makers and barristers would talk of their 'self' NOT being influenced, defined and connected with their world ?

The 'holding back thing' which premies do, when you see them en-masse with their smug and arrogant tongue-in-place smiles, the subtle reservation which they think makes them better than the mass of humanity, striving for identity. It would seem that Rawat was offering a short cut to freedom... in actual fact short cuts sometimes miss out the best part of a journey.

To win the lottery is not the same as having built a company, developed a career, forged success in a creative fashion.

To steal the trophy and parade with it, is NOT the same as having competed for it fairly, and won.

who is clapping as you do your lap of 'honour' ?

Nobody. You are alone, and your trophy would be much better placed in the hands of someone who deserved it.

I am going to give it back... and start again.

Loafie

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 18:26:28 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: The single minded trap
Message:
Hi Loafie

Thanks for your post.

It's funny....I feel as if I have an inner strength, an inner stoicism if you like that was probably there before K. Well,it carried me through some heavyy ego disintegrating bad acid trips hahaha.(Good trips too of course).

However, I know what you mean when you talk of the K/aloofness syndrome....very weird world, that one.I think perhaps Rawats incessant early day heavy spiels (at least up to late 70's/early 80's)...just concentrate on satsang, service,meditation ....and for instance his purposely guilt inducing stuff such as his heavy Kissimee spiel when he called us all two-faced hypocrites (ah !!! the IRONY ...coming from him)sort of took what was basically a good, positive thing in us (ie an inner strength..a sense of benign self-power) and accentuated it and twisted it so much that it became a perverse, unsociable weirdness. His condemnation of chit-chat at festivals/programs etc ...his assertion that such socialbility was somehow bad, wrong ....a betrayal of your master.

These days I feel more balanced. Being sociable is cool but so too is feeling a sense of ....well not cold aloofness or anything like that ....but nevertheless a centredness...a fearlessness at the core ,so to speak. I'm rambling a bit...not quite getting across what I mean.

Even from childhood I've felt an inner strength and a feeling that my sojourn here is transient ....but also appreciate the fact that other 'individuals' are here experiencing it all with me.

Haa I must shut up now....I'm trying (and failing) to describe what is after all just a vague feeling....

Enjoyed your post anyway.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 02:19:08 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: The single minded trap
Message:
I know what you mean... what I described above was an awareness of a single strand of my nature which M and K strengthened.. somewhat at the expense of others.

The pre-occupation with MY eperience, MY place in the pecking order, MY darchan, MY seat in the arena, MY Guru Maharaj Ji even until I left, a few years ago, left little room for a strong social concsience to develop IF IT WASN'T THERE TO BEGIN WITH.

And with me, it wasnt. In theory... it was yes. I was a nice enough guy, but in practice, the early 80s of Thatcherism in the UK, premie-ism and immature-ism made me a pretty selfish person.

I remember when i first seriously questioned the whole chebang. it was at the residence in the UK in about 1992 ish. M was around, M's kids were zipping about on quads.. the sun was shining I should have been as happy as a pig in muck.

But I wasnt. I was quietly freaked out. I saw the power games of the premies, the un-ease, the fear, the jostling for acceptance from him.. the complete LACK of centredness and I thought...'by their fruits ye shall know them'.

I know that things get pretty intense at the top of ANY hierarchy, especially around a celebrity... but this was dirty.

I knew then, somehow, that knowledge hypnotises.

When combined with subtle suggestion (nowadays) or blatant instruction (then-a days)those 4 techniques leave a person wide open to be 're-programmed'.. The actual nice feeling is the same feeling a computer has when its case is off.

To promote TRUST as a FEELING.. to encourage the sense of openness for its own pleasure.. is a dangerous thing, because we are wide open to suggestion.

The Context of knowledge and the receiving of it is loaded with 'interferance'.. it is 'the masters Gift'.. 'By His Grace'...and its not as if he is not nowadays an extremely accomplished speaker.

He knows how to charm a room full of open minds... tell them what they want to hear..remind them of their mortality, and their disappointments in 'this world'.. remind them of what they already 'KNOW'.. that there is a better way, that it feels nice to have your case screws loosened... and that 'there needs to be someone whom you can trust'

and bingo.. join the dots.. without being told (whereas in the old days I had been told 'trust Guru Maharaj Ji') I removed my motherboard myself and cheerfully handed it over. I trusted. I trusted the feeling of trust, but I never ever saw who or what it was that I was trusting.

Now i am saturated with knowledge.. i cant ever pretend or imagine what I would have been like without it.

And my 'aloneness' or seperateness IS a great quality. BUT I am changing,learning and opening to make it just one of many qualities I play.

For too long Inner-ness was my default setting. In truth it is probably best employed as a screen saver.

Loafie

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 19:59:33 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: You're on a roll, Loafie
Message:
I thoroughly enjoyed that especially the computer metaphors. Yes, it was a thoroughly self-centered infantile trip and you can still see this childish solipsism in thoroughly modern PWKs.
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:40:53 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: GREAT post, Loafie! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:38:35 (EDT)
From: Jean Paul
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Question to Pat Conlon
Message:
Pat,
A few months ago, you said that the technics of meditation 'revealed' bij Rawat belong to krija yoga. The teachers in krija yoga emphasize that the teacher doesn’t need to present himself like a messager of god and that he doesn't have a special grace.
All the gurus like Rawat use these technics for their own purpose and include them in a system of devotion, participation, kissing the feet of he living and unique perfect master etc…
Do you have documents or more information about the schools of krija yoga that you talked about?
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 14:48:00 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jean Paul
Subject: Hi, Jean-Paul
Message:
At one time I studied all the yogas from books. Gradually during the first ten years my cult involvement I got rid of those books because I thought I no longer needed them since I was the student of the reincarnation of Krishna and Jesus, the living god, and the books were ignorant.

When I discovered the Radhasoami connection documents on EPO I began to search the net for more info. I did not keep bookmarks to the sites I read but I kept lots of notes. One day maybe I will put the notes together for others to read but right now I am not very enthusiastic about yoga or Hinduism.

I suggest that you do as I did and use search engines to find the info that you are looking for. Spiritweb has essays on many different types of yoga. I personally can't tolerate it because it is completely New Age but some of the article are interesting.

If you have any specific questions and I know the answers I will be happy to answer you.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 07:20:36 (EDT)
From: Jean Paul
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Hi, Patl
Message:
Thank you for your answer. First of all, excuse my english.
I am not interested in yoga and I don't use the 4 technics anymore. But, according to your text of 21 or 22 april , the fact that the 4 technics are a part of yoga without reference to perfect master, devotion, grace, etc… is important to put back these technics in a good context. If this is clarified, it is an another element to denounce the fraud of Rawat and others.
I am also interested with the nature of these technics. They seem to lead to concentration and absorption ( like samatha or chine in buddhism) but without showing all the aspects that we are because the position of the mind doens't allow space for anything else. So, they allow temporary peace but don't give a complete view of the forces that constitue our being and in consequences they cannot favour deep knowledge and changes. It is interesting that samatha or chine in buddhism are only tools to bring the mind quiet so that it can be used for insight investigation or meditation.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 13:58:48 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jean Paul
Subject: HI J-P, I am ignorant of buddhism
Message:
....so I am not sure what samatha and chine are. I am not sure if this will clarify things or not.

Patanjali first wrote about yoga which had been around for a long time before him as an oral tradition. At that time yoga was one simple thing - exercises to keep the body and mind healthy. Later it got increasingly complicated and split up and parts of it became imbued with religion and superstition.

Patanjali emphasized that the only guru necessary was the ''inner guru'' which meant trusting yourself. He also emphasized the need for ''tapas'' and would not teach yoga to anyone who had religious concepts or negative thoughts. The aim of tapas was mental health and consisted of the usual rules about not lying, indulging in anger etc.

Kabir was a Hindu orphan who was adopted by Muslim parents and raised as a Muslim. When he was a young man he decided to check out his Hindu roots and studied yoga under a Hindu guru. Kabir took the light, sound and breath kriyas (tools) and ignored the rest of the health exercises and turned them into a religion of ''seeing Allah within.'' He also happened to be an alcoholic.

Guru Nanak probably attended Kabir's satsangs and he took the new religion and turned it into Sikhism. From that eventually came the Sant Mat religion and then the Radhasoami cult (which added a bit of Christianity to the mix) and which Shri Hans studied. But all of these religions have one thing in common - guru-worship.

Outside of these cults there are so many other weird forms of yoga that no two saddhus seem to agree with each other. What was once a simple health regime became mixed up with every sort of superstitious Hinduism. Yoga simply meant ''becoming whole or healthy'' - a healthy mind in a healthy body, holism.

The biggest crime that Rawat has done is not to teach mental health and mix it up with god and other superstitious nonsense. Of course it is impossible for someone who uses alcohol to obtain peace of mind to teach mental health. Rawat is mentally unhealthy and that is what he is teaching.

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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 16:59:00 (EDT)
From: Jean Paul
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Thank you
Message:
Thank for your explanations. All these 'masters' who show technics and pretend it is bij their grace are big manipulators and are basically ignorant and dangerous.
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Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001 at 20:52:39 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jean Paul
Subject: You're welcome anytime, J-P [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:29:18 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Dear Pam, your NB was NB'd
Message:
NB: After this episode of divine depression in 1997, I logged onto the forum, and it definitely caused some drips. But there was so much invective here that I decided it was safer and saner in EV. (Which is really saying something.) The forum is still too abusive and unsafe for many people to belong. Several have left the forum for the same reason. There is a frequent tendency for angry and abusive people to dominate the debate, to shout down those who disagree with them, and to spray the forum with dozens of posts.

On balance, the forum is a great boon to the ex world. But unless the above problem is somehow redressed, it will never attract a wide variety or large number of exes.

Hey thanks for the memoirees. I think we have taken a large step in addressing your concerns about this forum. We now discourage off topic threads, which were the source of a most of the acrimony and fighting. It is my goal to make the forum a safe and non-abusive haven for rational and civil discussion, for as wide a variety and number of people as possible.

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:02:58 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry could you change the text please
Message:
to make it clear no off-topic threads can happen here, and point out that anything goes is now the off-topic version of this forum, and that there is a mild non-flaming off topic forum too, as well as a password protected forum for recent exes with a link.
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 16:29:31 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Yup, that's a good idea
Message:
Ham,

Just cleaned a seven and a half pound silver and packed in some oysters and manila clams as well as chantrelle mushrooms which Miss Patty is presently washing in the sink. Plus I'm already into my cups. Would tomorrow be OK?

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 13:19:34 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Flame free or hot?
Message:
What should my forum be? Click on the ''Flame Free'' link to see what I mean.
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 09:24:43 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: sanjay dewan...????
Message:
Hello all,

This morning I opened my hotmail account and had this message from the above individual, skdewan@rediffmail.com: RE: shreenanglisahib:

sir can we share views on the linage of mr prempal rawat i know the linage and made a site www.shreenanglisahib.com you will get a reward if you find mr hans there
skdewan

I don't know this person or the ''Alan'' either. That's exactly how the message read, no punctuation, and I didn't go to the site. And I haven't really studied the the lineage issue regarding M.

Any clues?

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 13:31:44 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: benlurken@aol.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: sanjay dewan...????
Message:
Cynthia,

Can you please edit your message to take my email address out please - thanks

Alan (email address not posted)
Ben Lurking-

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 14:43:51 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: To: Ben Lurking..and FA
Message:
Hi,

I can't edit it anymore becaused it 'timed' out. If the FA would like to take it out the address (which I didn't know was yours, sorry) please do so...

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 17:48:07 (EDT)
From: Asst FA
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Done [nt]
Message:
Hi,

I can't edit it anymore becaused it 'timed' out. If the FA would like to take it out the address (which I didn't know was yours, sorry) please do so...

Cynthia


---

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 17:24:06 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: sanjay dewan...????
Message:
I've already posted this several time: the guy is a satsangi, PR of the Shri Nangli Sahib group/website.
Looks like he's trying to recruit among the exes, and is a bit pissed we've debunked the Perfect Master fairy tale on EPO ......
Maybe he's picking the email addresses from the white pages.
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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 21:58:48 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Ok, thanks J-M...
Message:
I haven't had time to read all threads...I must have missed your posts. Sorry...

Be Well,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Oct 13, 2001 at 12:05:24 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: sanjay dewan...????
Message:
some time ago, JMK posted something about this site. didn't follow it up as it looked like someone had concrete in their head. So Ask JMK.

The headless monster

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