such -:- bio-chem warfare, dengue fever links [ot -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 17:16:35 (EDT)

__ such -:- dengue fever link [ot -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 17:17:42 (EDT)

cq -:- Isn't this is both ON Topic and topical -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:44:32 (EDT)

__ cq -:- Ooops. Hit the 'post reply' button too soon -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 16:08:39 (EDT)

Marianne -:- Bjorn -don't ever email me again -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 14:07:26 (EDT)

__ Marianne -:- I'm serious, Bjorn-NO MORE EMAIL -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 16:13:45 (EDT)

Jim -:- No, it's not a cult (*sarcasm*) part 523 -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:17:49 (EDT)

Jim -:- Jossie Fresco speaks out! -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:07:18 (EDT)

__ such -:- rugu.lard [a lil poem]: -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:06:49 (EDT)

a little news -:- about the master -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:18:41 (EDT)

__ Carla -:- Base of Believers?? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:24:00 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Don't give M ideas! -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:32:28 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Low Attendance????LOL! -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:30:42 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Hehe ,what's new? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:15:20 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave }( -:- He's in competition with Sainsbury's -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:55:15 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- I shop at Sainsbury's,Dave -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:18:44 (EDT)

Channeling 'Pam' (repost) -:- My memoirs -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:46:26 (EDT)

__ Zorro -:- how many more times ?? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 06:23:04 (EDT)

__ __ Keep printing 'Pam'! -:- Who knows? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:08:40 (EDT)

New Premie -:- can you help me? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:48:28 (EDT)

__ Suzanne -:- Read all about him on EPO -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:20:15 (EDT)

__ janet -:- only you can help you -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 07:53:05 (EDT)

__ Dermot -:- Superior power in person..didn't you know? [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 07:38:14 (EDT)

__ Zorro -:- Re: can you help me? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 06:21:21 (EDT)

__ Old Premie -:- Yes. -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:20:45 (EDT)

__ Old Premie -:- Yes. -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:40:39 (EDT)

__ jethro -:- didn't you mean 'new pwk'NT -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:45:16 (EDT)

__ Got a life -:- Get a life, 'new premie' [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:43:44 (EDT)

__ an old ex -:- Re: can you help me? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:20:41 (EDT)

__ Scott T. -:- Trolling for exes. -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:35:19 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca ~) -:- LOLs ()) [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:05:43 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- check it out: facts vs. fiction -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:26:15 (EDT)

__ SC -:- Go directly to Lifesgreat - do not ... -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:43:39 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Don't get too cozy, SC/David/Cerise -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:57:33 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- To start I would suggest that you... -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:07:42 (EDT)

__ Deborah -:- Why don't you say more about yourself, first -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:05:18 (EDT)

__ Tim G -:- Re: can you help me? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:03:07 (EDT)

JHB -:- Pam's Memoirs reposted -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:02:07 (EDT)

__ got a life -:- Re: Pam's Memoirs reposted -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:53:08 (EDT)

__ JHB -:- Second half -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:05:32 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Sorry about lack of formatting -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:07:23 (EDT)

salam -:- At least the FA is vigelant -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:42:21 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- I've sold out -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:09:45 (EDT)

__ __ salam -:- Re: I've sold out -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:16:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ such -:- I'm vegeland, too [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 14:06:14 (EDT)

Jim -:- So what? Now religion's taboo too? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:40:22 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:06:29 (EDT)

__ __ Loaf -:- Hurrah for Gerry ! -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 23:30:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Baby enema ceremonies? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:57:25 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:18:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 17:23:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- What do I think? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:38:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: What do I think? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:00:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- It's more like ad hic (sic) -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 21:05:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: It's more like ad hic (sic) -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:18:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ JohnT -:- bin Laden a liberal wet! -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:34:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- PS -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:38:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You need IE to read locked threads -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:12:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Tell you what -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:45:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Just like the Onion ~) [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:23:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- 'Excessively liberal' LOL [nt] -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:52:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Posted at Anything Goes Too [nt] -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:22:18 (EDT)

Jim -:- Funnier than fiction -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 12:57:29 (EDT)

Tcheuki -:- where?? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 07:04:08 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- They have gone inactive -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:47:53 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- Can anyone repost it? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:03:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ tcheuki -:- thank's for your nice and quickly answersf -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:39:33 (EDT)

Tim G -:- CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:16:20 (EDT)

__ CW -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 09:12:26 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- What a scaredy cat you are! -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:07:12 (EDT)

__ __ Tim G -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 10:34:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 21:02:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:58:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:29:18 (EDT)

__ Tim G -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:21:08 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- You're too damn nice, TimG -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:39:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ CW -:- And your all over the place! -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:18:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Water off a duck's back? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:13:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Water off a duck's back? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:39:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Anonymity is accepted at AA -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:01:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Anonymity is accepted at AA -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:24:16 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Prey on Catweasel? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:55:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Prey on Catweasel? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:24:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: Pat: Irish Saying -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 17:14:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Tim: Irish Saying - flies? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:35:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: Butterflies? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:49:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Bluebottles? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:47:04 (EDT)

JHB -:- Has Maharaji ever flown commercially? -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 19:11:20 (EDT)

__ R-J -:- Wait a minute John, here's how it happend . . . -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 21:45:19 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Too Funny Dude |D -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 23:41:28 (EDT)

__ __ Dermot -:- Hey R-J -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 07:14:06 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Is he a member of the Mile High Club? -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:00:36 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Someone else probably checked him in [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:07:21 (EDT)

Jim -:- Is insensitivity to banality a sin? -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 14:17:33 (EDT)

__ suchabuono -:- no,but mislabeling beyondananda as banana is... -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:19:41 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- LOL -- sorry, Such! -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:27:41 (EDT)

__ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: Is insensitivity to banality a sin? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 08:17:51 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :~) -:- I remember praying to guru and God -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:06:43 (EDT)

__ __ Tim G -:- Re: Excellent Post Patrick.nt -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 11:59:22 (EDT)

__ JohnT -:- the banality of evil -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:30:26 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca -:- GREAT great post JohnT [nt] -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:09:45 (EDT)

__ __ PatD -:- Most of them did go along with it -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 18:45:18 (EDT)

__ Scott T. -:- Re: Is insensitivity to banality a sin? -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:01:30 (EDT)

__ __ Barbara -:- What's 'A Curse In Marigolds'? [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:40:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: What's 'A Curse In Marigolds'? -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:16:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Thanks...it sounds funny,,, [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:51:04 (EDT)

__ Barbara -:- It's Swami Beyondananda... -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 16:22:37 (EDT)

__ __ Susannah -:- More on Banality... -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 04:00:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ Barbara -:- Re: More on Banality... -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 11:15:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- That's all it offers, Susannah -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 07:00:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Susannah -:- Re: That's all it offers, Susannah -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:56:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: That's all it offers, Susannah -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 07:18:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Susannah -:- Keep a Light Heart, Dermot -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:23:11 (EDT)

gabfest -:- beliefs -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 08:15:24 (EDT)

__ JohnT -:- Belief in Paradise is a recipe for hell on earth -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:58:11 (EDT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Thanks, JohnT.. -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 23:31:04 (EDT)

__ Tim G -:- Re: beliefs -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 08:54:28 (EDT)

Mr. Dooley -:- This need to trust (and be victimized) -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 05:45:55 (EDT)

__ Tim G -:- Re'The practical Solution'be victimized) -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 06:39:34 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- The Father Fetish -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:25:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: The Father Fetish -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 19:48:42 (EDT)

Steve Quint -:- CAC And Recent Exes Forum -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:03:35 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- 'Terrorism' is a bit strong -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:00:50 (EDT)

__ JohnT -:- deeply offended and hurt -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 14:46:51 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Stuff and nonsense -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 04:25:01 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Of course CAC scared me, Steve -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:29:15 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- CAC shook me up too -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:12:35 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Only female CAC victim -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:33:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- I understand, Marianne... -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:14:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- You go! Marianne -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:18:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Go Marianne! -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:07:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Peoples Temple, EV and CAC -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:38:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Absolutely ''BEST OF'' -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:35:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca ~) -:- ***BEST OF FORUM!!!*** -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:47:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- That's what I said -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:23:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Raven -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 10:19:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ^^^^My post^^^sorry... [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:21:15 (EDT)

Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 17:16:35 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: All Subject: bio-chem warfare, dengue fever links [ot Message:

http://www.heritage.org/library/backgrounder/bg1488.html http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic124.htm [ http://www.heritage.org/library/backgrounder/bg1488.html ]

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 17:17:42 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: such Subject: dengue fever link [ot Message:

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic124.htm [ http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic124.htm ]

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:44:32 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: All Subject: Isn't this is both ON Topic and topical Message:

Hi Scott, If your post makes one thing clear, it's that the phrase 'anti-American' needs to be carefully defined and even more carefully used, if it's to have any consensus of meaning at all.  I appreciate your attempt to set the goalposts on that one Scott, though when you say 'There is a good deal that is American about 'anti-Americanism' in the US' I begin to wonder if this discussion has the requisite number of them (- goalposts, that is!). I don't pretend to know a hell of a lot about the Founding Fathers of the American Constitution, (their influence and place in history wasn't terribly well represented on the curriculum when I studied History at school), likewise de Tocqueville and his definition of 'Americanism', but I did at least take the time to look up a little about him.  At first I wondered if I'd got the wrong guy, with quotes like these: 'In America the majority raises formidable barriers around the liberty of opinion; within these barriers an author may write what he pleases, but woe to him if he goes beyond them.' 'Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom' 'As one digs deeper into the national character of the Americans, one sees that they have sought the value of everything in this world only in the answer to this single question: how much money will it bring in?' 'Here and there in the midst of American society you meet with men full of a fanatical and almost wild spirtualism, which hardly exists in Europe. From time to time strange sects arise which endeavor to strike out extraordinary paths to eternal happiness. Religious insanity is very common in the United States.' I can only hope these quotes I found are not representative of the national traits which go to make up his definition of 'Americanism'. Anyway, I take your point that 'un-American' clearly cannot be applied to those who are not citizens of the Americas.  As for the term 'un-British', - well, for many decades there certainly has been a concept of what 'un-British' behaviour/attitudes mean.  (I don't know about the French, Germans or Israelis, but I would guess that they too have a phrase which implies being unpatriotic).  Unfortunately the concept of 'un-British' behaviour is still tied up in the mire of stereotype, and is often further muddied with jingoistic echoes of Empire, national dominance and a sense of racial superiority.  A lack of respect for the monarch would be part and parcel of the term too (which means that the majority of Brits today are 'un-British', so it evidently needs re-defining). Your attempt to re-define the term 'politically correct' to imply that it's another phrase for 'freedom of thought and speech, diversity and dissent' is a bit of a long shot, IMO.  Don't quite see where you were going with that idea. As for Monbiot's claim that the founding fathers' themselves would today be classified as 'anti-American' - well, it's not quite as groundless and ill-considered as you make out.   You think that it's 'patently silly' that the founders would agree with current dissenters about US involvement abroad, and that includes, I guess, the coalition that George ('if you ain't with us, you're against us') W Bush has hastily cobbled together. Well, Scott, if he was able to, I think Thomas Jefferson would probably take issue with you there, judging by these quotes of his: 'I sincerely join... in abjuring all political connection with every foreign power; and though I cordially wish well to the progress of liberty in all nations, and would forever give it the weight of our countenance, yet they are not to be touched without contamination from their other bad principles. Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto.' --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Lomax, 1799. ME 10:124 'On the subject of treaties, our system is to have none with any nation, as far as can be avoided... It is against our system to embarrass ourselves with treaties, or to entangle ourselves at all with the affairs of Europe.'  --Thomas Jefferson to Philip Mazzei, 1804. ME 11:38 'Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations--entangling alliances with none, I deem [one of] the essential principles of our government, and consequently [one of] those which ought to shape its administration.' --Thomas Jefferson: 1st Inaugural Address, 1801. ME 3:321 'We wish not to meddle with the internal affairs of any country, nor with the general affairs of Europe. Peace with all nations, and the right which that gives us with respect to all nations, are our object.' --Thomas Jefferson to C. W. F. Dumas, 1793. ME 9:56 I am for free commerce with all nations, political connection with none, and little or no diplomatic establishment. And I am not for linking ourselves by new treaties with the quarrels of Europe, entering that field of slaughter to preserve their balance, or joining in the confederacy of Kings to war against the principles of liberty.' --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:77   He even went so far as to say: 'Our attachment to no nation on earth should supplant our attachment to liberty.' --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration on Taking Up Arms, 1775. Papers 1:201 'They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.' and 'What country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the right of resistance? Let them take arms...The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.'     As for the delicate religious sub-plot (if indeed it is only a sub-plot) of this war, it was Thomas Paine who said: “All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.” then there's Adams: “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” Article 11, Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797)  and “The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” Jefferson again: “In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.” “Christianity...[has become] the most perverted system that ever shone on man....' (Sorry to go on at such length there, but each quote I came across just seemed to cry out for inclusion).   But to put all this in context of the original question, which still needs a lot more work before the Great American Psyche comes even close to really getting to grips with the problem of  'Why do they hate us?' Personally, I think it's a very good sign that more and more people in America are finding the courage to at least ask that question.  The national psyche has taken a hefty blow, and maybe it'll take quite a bit more time to be even willing to face the less palatable facts surrounding her own responsibility in contributing to the climate that has allowed her current misfortunes to come about. In that old cycle of anger, denial, bargaining, resentment and acceptance, (if that's the right order they come in) it's pretty clear that, for many, the denial has only just started to be expressed.  You yourself make that very evident when you say: '… the notion that we ought to apologize for something just pisses me off'.   Then again, isn't that very attitude a part of what 'Americanism' is all about? A whole generation throughout the Arab world has grown up thinking very ill of the USA..  That's a dangerous situation which the various American administrations have unfortunately got away with ignoring for far too long, and I can only hope that Bush's way of dealing with it doesn't spiral into yet more hatred and reprisals. You know, this reminds me of the impasse between premies and exes.  One side is almost totally incapable of seeing the Maha in anything but a favourable light.  The other is almost totally incapable of seeing anything good in him.  The two just can't share the same image of him - or of each other.  To M, the idea that he should apologise for anything he's done is as alien to him as an apology for the U.S administration's influence in the Middle East would be to you, Scott.  Yet it seems so obvious to those of us who don't feel the need to bolster anyone's self-image that at least an element of responsibility HAS to exist - for the Maha in his little world as much as for the U.S. in her bigger one. If love is never having to say you're sorry, I guess that's one reason why the Maha surrounds himself only with people who profess to love him - so he can avoid having to deal with the fact that there's plenty he might apologise for - IF he had the insight and courage to realise that, for decades, his actions have had SERIOUS consequences for so many people. And maybe that's got 'a little' to do with the way the Arab world sees the West too.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 16:08:39 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: cq Subject: Ooops. Hit the 'post reply' button too soon Message:

Sorry folks, the 'on-topic' bit is definitely the last 2 or 3 paragraphs. The preceding is in reply to a post of Scott's on Anyting Goes (what, anyting? - begorrah) Gerry, sorry for imposing the whole text on this M-oriented forum, but I haven't got access to edit my post here at the Uni. Still, I hope Scott can read, and reply to the on-topic bits here, cant' he? Hope so.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 14:07:26 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: All Subject: Bjorn -don't ever email me again Message:

Bjorn, I have absolutely nothing to say to you. You are one twisted puppy. Go see your therapist and work your problems out with him or her. Marianne

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 16:13:45 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Marianne Subject: I'm serious, Bjorn-NO MORE EMAIL Message:

I see you sent me another email. I have deleted it without reading it. You are now blocked from sending me email. You are the one who's doing the harrassing here sweetie pie, not me. Leave me alone. Marianne

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:17:49 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: No, it's not a cult (*sarcasm*) part 523 Message:

Stojan posted these memoires de subjugation on ELK: Answer of all answers Within the breath of all breaths, within the heart of all hearts, lies the secret answer to all my questions: 'Gratitude to my dear master.' and: Colourful petals Janice, Jim, Ivete and Daryl... and of course so many others... I feel we are all like colorful petals of this precious heartfelt flower. Like you, I have been allowed to admire its inner graceful beauty. Like you, I have been invited to smell the divine fragrance of its nectar. Like you, I have been invited to express in words of truth my gratitude to our teacher. Stojan Svet Postojna, Slovenia

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:07:18 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Jossie Fresco speaks out! Message:

I'm not sure who this guy is but I hear he's a PAM of sorts. He was one of the guys who started ELK, I know that. Here are some fresh 'Expressions' of his: Without doubt Without doubt Proud of knowing you Strong in commitment To win Ready to play Your game Strong and flexible Aware and alert Fulfilled in knowing Heart joyous That is how I want to live This life Forever Wasn't that beautiful? Maybe Al Quedah could pick this one up for a morning prayer to bin Laden or something. 'Play to win' guys! All say All say there is separation. I know we are one. All say argue, debate! I know to be silent. No wonder ELK never quite 'mastered the technology' to put up a forum like they originally promised PWK's. All say achieve, conquer! I know I have it all. What happened with being strong and winning and all that? All say be pratical, be real! I know I am. In our secret of secrets, We laugh. Jossi Fresco California, USA

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:06:49 (EDT) From: such Email: banana@enjoyinglarf.com To: Jim Subject: rugu.lard [a lil poem]: Message:

rugu.lard [a lil poem]: lapdogs bark caca ladu give your soul to ratrugu strong in delusion cult lobotomized confusion pups growl - be silent about rapes call it the exes' sour grapes ready to play lard's capricious games muzzled on leashes hypnotized by trite speeches grovel and lick massa's feet like some kind of canine treat eat divine ladus from gold toilet seat make endless donations mansions, jets, yachts, vacations subhumanized mutts serve at the whim hosed by unholy colours of that fallen guru jism we cry for those gassed (in our heart of hearts) destroyed by the blast of that lard's brainfarts - Al Fresco Surfin, USA

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:18:41 (EDT) From: a little news Email: None To: All Subject: about the master Message:

this was heard recently around the premie grapevine: 1-m has cancelled all programs for the rest of the year, due to security . India will still happen, but only for Indians.. 2-current level of donors in North America has now fallen to 1200....down from 1800 a year or two ago... 3-base of 'believers' still remains at 4,000 in North America, although fewer attendees at weekly videos and very few new recruits.... 4-supposedly 65,000 people want knowledge, worldwide....presumably most (at least 62,000) from India....certainly not from the west... 5-currently, a big push for...you guessed it, MONEY! believers heavily encouraged yesterday to give more MONEY regularly, through credit card withdrawals each month, and also for a SPECIAL ONE TIME DONATION yesterday at the 'cause a global effect' extravaganza.... 6-one of the main reasons that more money is needed is to preserve old footage of m onto new video formats from old videos....supposedly some old footage has already been lost, hence the need for MONEY to preserve these valuable videos and photos of the master.... 7-MONEY is needed now for new projects...(ever heard that one before?) 8-knowledge is stabilizing...(?) 9-more emphasis on video transmissions...

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:24:00 (EDT) From: Carla Email: None To: a little news Subject: Base of Believers?? Message:

4,000 in North America? Who said the cult is dying? After 30 years in the West, 4,000 still gullible enough to remain in that cult is pretty impressive. 4,000 believers, 90% of which are Middle-aged holdovers from the 70s who still think Maharaji is God. Quite an accomplishment. Everyone is just waiting until Phase III, then it's really going to happen, you know. I think Maharaji is inventing a computer chip that people shove up their rectums, which gives that experience, and that understanding simultaneously. By hiding chips in bottles of suppositories, knowledge will finally be spread to the world. To aid in that process, Pwks will be requested to invite people to dinners where constipating foods will be served. It's all part of the plan; you'll see.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:32:28 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Carla Subject: Don't give M ideas! Message:

Everyone is just waiting until Phase III, then it's really going to happen, you know. I think Maharaji is inventing a computer chip that people shove up their rectums, which gives that experience, and that understanding simultaneously. By hiding chips in bottles of suppositories, knowledge will finally be spread to the world. To aid in that process, Pwks will be requested to invite people to dinners where constipating foods will be served. It's all part of the plan; you'll see. He's a bit desparate at the moment about getting new mugs, and he's about ready to try anything! John.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:30:42 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: a little news Subject: Low Attendance????LOL! Message:

So.... 3-base of 'believers' still remains at 4,000 in North America, although fewer attendees at weekly videos and very few new recruits.... That must mean that nobody's going to video events because just a couple of years ago, just about nobody was attending video events. YaHoo! I remember one time the Emcee and me were the only ones at a local video event.... What's news?

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:15:20 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: a little news Subject: Hehe ,what's new? Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:55:15 (EDT) From: Sir Dave }( Email: None To: a little news Subject: He's in competition with Sainsbury's Message:

I found out the other day that divine knowledge is being revealed at Sainsbury's supermarkets all over the UK and probably the world. I'll drop in there later and get the info. I think it costs about £1 and is a lot more thorough than Maharaji's teachings. I'm not kidding here. .. Dave

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:18:44 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Sir Dave }( Subject: I shop at Sainsbury's,Dave Message:

I'll have to remember to forget what you've just told me :)

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:46:26 (EDT) From: Channeling 'Pam' (repost) Email: None To: All Subject: My memoirs Message:

'Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat.' - Novalis Greetings to premies and ex-premies, Over recent years, as one of Maharaji's organisers, and an occasional PAM, I've seen many disturbing things in the world of Knowledge. Additionally, in conversation with other premies, numbers of equally disturbing things have been told to me. One, two, I could walk over, but gradually a picture has emerged that causes me concern for the welfare of people under Maharaji's aegis. I have come to the conclusion that it is time to say something about all of this. For a number of reasons that I do not wish to debate, I am choosing to remain anonymous. For myself, it is now clear, I am no longer a part of Maharaji's world, and though I do not wish to become a regular member of the ex premie forum, I would like to thank all involved for their insights and information, and for providing this forum for those people who are looking for answers. I started some time back putting down in writing all the things that are disturbing me. I've decided the best idea is to 'publish' appropriate extracts of this document here. Information is a powerful tool, though very little of it has been furnished to us by Maharaji's organisation, or by Maharaji himself. Indeed if I had to name the one pervasive theme of my experience with M - from the very early 1970s till 2001 - it would be secrecy. I am sure there are intelligence organisations that have less secrets than EV, and international spies who have less secrets than PAMs. For three decades, I have been one of the worst offenders. Information, of the type which has been provided at EPO and on the Forum - and below, I hope - allows premies, aspirants and interested outsiders to make informed decisions about joining or not joining, staying or leaving. In a way, all the opinions about M are secondary. The fact that Maharaji killed the cyclist in Delhi, and shifted the blame to a premie; that he drinks heavily; that he has selected premie women as sexual playthings; that he is worth 50 million US dollars; that for 25 years he has covered up, and declined to act on, a close lieutenant's sexual abuse of children...all this speaks volumes to those who want to make an informed decision. Our commentary and analysis is close to redundant. So, here is some more of that information - plus, admittedly, a bit of commentary. Another little corner of the M/K/DLM/EV jigsaw which grew so large for us over the last 30 years. A jigsaw which, till the ex-premie organisation started changing so many lives, we were only shown one or two pieces of at a time. The below is 18 pages - at least on my PC - so you may want to download it to your machine. Warm regards, Pam ****************************************xxxxxx 'How do you find a lion that has swallowed you?' - C.G. Jung It's been a long trek from the belly of the beast, up the esophagus, out the mouth and into the daylight. I hardly recognize the landscape, I've been in that belly so long. Quite recently, I've been in the strange positon of doing service for M while in my heart having left him. It was weird - but I got by. I made the final leap when I was ready. In the meantime I attended programs, did my work/service, and went through darshan, without feeling anything. It's bizarre to be in the cult environment and simultaneously deprogram yourself - but it can be done. What caused the shift? I think simply growing up was part of it. Believing in Santa Claus in advanced middle age just seemed too silly for words. Believing that Maharaji was the Living Master, to say nothing of the incarnation of God, was truly beyond the pale - especially when you'd learned enough of what he is like behind the stage act. (See below for all that.) But surely Maharaji hasn't taught that he's the incarnation of God since the 1970s? Yep. Sampuranand declared M to be Lord Krishna (the supreme God of Hinduism) onstage before 80,000 people in Delhi, in the late 1990s. M got up onstage straight after, to support the statement. The Indians loved it of course, though many of us Westerners were a little startled. What about the PR trainings we've had, where we're taught to tell media people that M has never claimed to be God? Maybe it doesn't apply if his statement is not made on American soil?? But in the end - in a strange quirk of fate - it was something little that did it for me. It was a conversation M had with a few of us about computers. Basically he was raving about Macs - how superior they were. I like Macs - though I don't own one - but frankly they are no better than PCs. They just come with a different set of pluses and minuses. M's brand chauvanism seemed really petty to me, and it made me wonder for the first time if he was such a wise figure after all. Funny how a trivial thing like that can trigger all your subterrainian doubts. Once those doubts began, they were like a torrent. Years of drips, then the Amazon in full flood. Once the 'doubtmaker' - i.e. your mind - begins to awaken, there's no stopping it. I could no more regard M as a special person now than fly to the moon. Even being in a room with him, toward the end, I just saw the screen on which I projected all my love, divinity, fear, and a whole bunch of Freudian father stuff. He's so ordinary once you see all that in yourself. But the last thing I want to do now is to make him into a monster. That's giving him an equal amount of power. In truth Maharaji is a pleasant enough guy much of the time. He is relaxed and relaxing to be with, and likes to make jokes and keep it light. He certainly relaxes in the company of men better than that of women - but he can get along with women too. He's just got the equation round the wrong way. M's 'doubtmaker' is actually your self. Your discrimination. Your identity. His 'Knowledge' is actually the illusion. What else could it be? You can't assess it or comprehend it. In practise (not in theory) it comes and goes all the time. 90% of those who practice it divorce their spouses. The organisation comprised of those who practice it is chronically dysfunctional - with leaders few people have liked, going back 30 years. Shattering stuff to realise after three decades - virtually the whole of one's adult life. A little like spending 30 years in Heaven, and at the end seeing that the angels were just guys with 5 o'clock shadow and acne who were paid $5 an hour to dress up; that all the singing was taped; and that the Almighty and his throne were just a pretty hologram. Bitterly disillusioning for a bit. But liberating thereafter - because finally you have some choices. ************************************************xxxx 'Repetition and forced attention are very conducive to the induction of a trance.' - Steve Hassan 'Because your mind troubles you, give it to me. It won't trouble me.' - Maharaji With some exceptions, premies as a group are low achievers. The reason, of course, is that premies' ideas about Maharaji and Knowledge depreciate the value of all other endeavour. Whether it's stated or not - and it isn't, thesedays - doing 'other things' just doesn't cut the ice that 'achieving the purpose of this life' does. So people who could be flying jets or creating successful businesses end up spending a lot of time sitting under blankets with their fingers in their ears. And one person who spends very little time with his fingers in his ears ends up flying jets. If you speak to any long-term PAMs - e.g. John Miller (captain of M's old yacht) or Randy Prouty - they'll tell you than M cannot not do events. He adores being adored. There's only one Major Achiever in the world of Knowledge - not 10,000. And there's only one person at a major event who is completely comfortable in the knowledge of who he is. Everybody else is shooting for the false moon he has installed in a false sky, and can never know rest. ********************************************xx 'Whatever deceives seems to produce a magical enchantment.' -Plato I know others have said there were no financial improprieties in EV. I can only speak from my own experience - which is that EV was substantially a cash organisation until the 1990s. Money raised from the membership for Maharaji's personal use - e.g. a new quarters at the 'Windmill' area of Amaroo, costing several hundred thousand dollars - is still kept off the books. Assuming one could keep Raja Ji's drink-sodden hands off them, the cash proceeds from darshan lines were commonly flown around the world in the suitcases of x-rated premies, till they found their 'home' in M's coffers. I'm talking two, three, four hundred thousand US dollars at a time. These poor couriers would freak out if hunger forced them to take out $10 to buy a meal. They also suffered serious anxiety as they neared their destinations, customs and immigration regulations being what they are. Raja Ji still pursues his traditional role of schmoozing, wining, dining and flattering rich premies to extract $$$ from them for the family coffers. This is not always successful, as some of these people have class, and Raja Ji is a rather gauche character. Having seen things from the inside, I'm still kind of shattered that thousands of innocent premies around the West think this thing is about Knowledge, love and the rest. It's a family business, and it's about money. Every recent Indian guru is the same: Sai Baba, Mukhtananda and Osho all trade(d) their spiritual credentials (which, like Maharaji's, are mostly faked anyway), and a convincing stage act, for cash payments from westerners who see themselves as spiritually impoverished. Money is the main game, but these people also get side-benefits from devotees, such as sex: Sai Baba gives oral sex to adolescent boys in the guise of some ceremony; Mukhtananda was well-known for raping adolescent girls in the guise of transferring 'shakti'; and Osho (a.k.a. Shri Rajneesh) would bonk anything that moved - telling his credulous followers that sex and enlightenment were more or less the same thing. Most of the above tolerate(d) abusive sexual behaviour by their lieutenants - most frequently child sexual abuse. Sound familiar? On the home front, the thing that concerns me most - as both a very-recently-ex-EV international organizer and as a human being - is the sexual antics of the instructors. The sexual frustration of the instructors is not something (thank God) I've experienced firsthand - but it is a kind of epidemic. Numerous premie women I know are molested, propositioned, pursued and worse by instructors, in many countries. Because these guys - many of whom I've known since the early 1970s - have never grown within a normal relationship, their approach to women now is highly dysfunctional and dishonest. I can't bring myself to name individuals - doing so would tarnish some of EV's brightest lights, of longest-standing. And they're mostly still my friends. We all got each other into the M cult - and now we're forming networks and giving support as, one by one, each individual is plucked out of it. So even the sexually abusive instructors - and that's the majority of those I know - are people I'd like to help out the door, rather than simply attack and discredit them. Having said that, this policy will change and names will be named, and incidents described in all their shameful, gory detail, if these practices continue. (And believe me, I know so many of the heartbroken women involved that I will definitely find out.) Too many women have been damaged by these serial womanisers/gropers/molesters (who lie to their current woman about their affairs with women in other 'ports') to allow this 'epidemic' to continue. This is not abuse a la Jagdeo - but it is playing with people's feelings in a callous, chronic way. I hope it's really clear that I'm going to blow the whistle on these people if this doesn't change. I don't want to hurt anyone - but at the same time unless these guys start to grow a bit, they'll continue hurting innocent, vulnerable girls all over the planet. And there's none so vulnerable as a woman who believes in the myth of 'Maharaji's instructors'. I should make it equally clear that I'm not talking about equal, consensual, honest relationships - e.g. Sampuranand and Bai Ji. And I'm not talking about some occasional on-the-road flings - we've all had those. I'm talking about using women as sexual playthings, and serial dishonesty, Maharaji-style. People around Maharaji (PAMs) get into power trips and bullying - the well-known 'mini-Maharaji' syndrome. Many PAMs drink a lot (or are alcoholics), just like the Master: throwing up on the way back to your tent after a night drinking with M around the campfire is not exactly unknown. Similarly, just like Maharaji, some instructors have misused their status for sexual gain. At the very least these instructors need to get counselling on how to form normal relationships. Ideally this counselling will take place post-K - because the inherently dysfunctional master-student relationship is the fertile soil from which dysfunctional approaches to women grow. A post-Knowledge setting for this kind of change is important, not only because Knowledge tends to replace/reduce normal growth, but because EV will never act against this sort of behaviour. The system thus encourages it. When reports are made (which is rare), EV takes no action. The only exception was when an instructor had to be spirited out of Australia some years ago following a sexual incident: otherwise EV's record is of no response, no action, no attempt to assist the women involved, and no attempt to change the climate which gives rise to the incidents. (In recent years policies have been written on sexual harassment. Believe me, they don't apply to M or the instructors.) M's attitudes to women don't help much either. He once told a group of us at Amaroo that he wanted to gather all the girls with 'good tits' at one end of the property, and all the girls with 'bad tits' at the other end. In his public satsangs he frequently uses the example of when 'you come home from a hard day's work and your wife doesn't have dinner on the table in time' and the like. I'm not wild about PC myself, but this sort of thinking surely belongs in the 1950s. I've learned recently from a PAM friend that the closest inner circle of PAMs - e.g. the permanent personal staff, those in the personal (now known as the 'executive') area at Amaroo, the airliner staff - have been trained to deceive Maharaji's wife in the Monica matter. For example if Marolyn enquires as to whether Monica is present in Maharaji's campground with him - and she is indeed there - these staff have been instructed to tell Marolyn that she is not. If Maharaji and Monica are staying in a hotel together, Marolyn is to be given the same line. I was surprised by this at first, as Marolyn has obviously known about Monica for some years. I can only presume that the depth and extent of Maharaji's relationship with Monica is what is being kept secret from his wife, via these institutionalised deceptions. It doesn't paint a pretty picture of Maharaji - but it makes the inner sanctum staff look even worse, IMO. It's a stark illustration of how one's values can deteriorate when one is focussed on the 'greater good' of keeping the Living Master. Such training also furthers the climate of deceit about this relationship. Even until the mid-1990s, Monica was telling me, when she entered an area where M was, that she was joining him to 'show him the latest videos' from Visions. As if everyone didn't know. The deceit - sorry, 'confidentiality' - is pervasive: the Monica thing is just the most visible example. The Indian premies, for instance, don't know that Maharaji eats meat, drinks and smokes - let alone that he has selected premie women from the audience for his sexual use. It would be a huge cultural leap for them to accept him if they found this out. Most would leave. For this reason Maharaji's lifestyle is kept top secret in India. Even in the West, no Indian premies (other than x-rated ones like Sampur) are allowed to do service in the personal area or Maharaji's kitchen, specifically because of the effect that learning of Maharaji's lifestyle would have on them. ****************************************xxxxxx 'Today's cults know how to effectively implant vivid negative images deep within members' unconscious minds, making it impossible for the member to even conceive of ever being happy and successful outside of the group. When the unconscious is programmed to accept the negative images, it behaves as though they were true. The unconscious mind is made to contain a substantial image-bank of all the bad things that will occur if anyone should ever betray the group.' - Steven Hassan By the late 1990s, EPO was starting to crack through the dynamic described by Hassan - showing just how powerful the Internet is. Premies were reading posts and journeys from people they'd once known and trusted - people who had left Maharaji, and left knowledge, but - unaccountably - had not turned into rotten vegetables. People started to leave. One of these was the woman assigned by the PR team to monitor the Forum, amusingly enough. To counter the rising problem of EPO, M had spent a log time trashing the Web - calling it, for example, 'the world wide parking lot'. This didn't work: premies got wired as much and as enthusiastically as everyone else. So the decision was made by Maharaji in July '98 to inaugurate an EV website. Mark Winter in the UK was given the task. The publicly stated reason for Enjoying Life was to propagate K and give premies a chance to express gratitude. Maharaji confided to the group responsible for it that the site's real purpose was to counter the anti-M sites - EPO basically. Latitude was given to Mark W in creating the site - i.e. premies were allowed/encouraged to diverge from the party-line devotional blather and mention problems they might have had getting their minds around Knowledge, and even a few jokes passed by the censors. That was to give the Enjoying Life site a bit of the 'realism' or rawness that traditional EV propaganda has usually lacked - and which EPO has in abundance. The Enjoying Life site was basically established as EPO's online competitor. In October 98, M told me he was extremely pleased with the result: I saw his Net-phobia evaporate overnight. ******************************************** 'The most curious part of the thing was, that the trees and the other things round them never changed their places at all: however fast they went, they never seemed to pass anything. 'I wonder if all the things move along with us?' thought poor puzzled Alice. And the Queen seemed to guess her thoughts, for she cried, 'Faster! Don't try to talk!'' Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass EV has nearly come to a halt at the present. Less people have received Knowledge in the West in the past year than in any year since 1971 - a 30-year low. Currently there is a participation drought throughout the West. People are pulling back, and getting on with their real lives. EV is being run by some of the old stalwarts, but the future of both the organisation's structure and the personnel who run it is uncertain. For once this is not because of mass burn-outs or M's habit of firing personnel left, right and center - it's because of a withdrawal of groundtroops. In Australia, the jewel in M's crown, Amaroo is apparently laying off staff, and activty is very low due to lack of funds. It's not clear who's going to be running the country's organisation overall. This follows a recent move by Derek Harper (instructor), Lee Marges and Catherine Gavigan (organisers) to oust Kay McKinnon (Pacific contact). It was generally believed that her $50,000+ annual salary could be better spent elsewhere. Kay McKinnon has survived for now, but that status is far from certain for even the middle-term. (A lot of people have been bucking for her to be booted for years.) Thus no-one down under really knows how to begin planning for the organisation's future. Ironically, all this happens against a backdrop of Maharaji's statement to the rich guys at the Arizona conference last month that he 'wants the politics to stop'. The politics in EV can never stop, as it's created by imprisoning people's democratic instincts within a top-down theocratic heirarchy: Maharaji, his family, PAMs, instructors, organisers, groundtroops and church ladies. Thus there will always be tension between instinct, conscience and common sense on the one side, and the uncomfortable, ultimately inhuman imperatives of the master-student relationship on the other. In kicking against this spirit-shrivelling dynamic in themselves, EV people also kick against each other - for they generally project the problem outward. Thus other organisers - but not me - are 'petty', 'insensitive', 'manipulative' and 'power-hungry'. In a normal organisation this could be ironed out with psychological growth. In one where the expansive behind of the Living Master of The Time sits like a lava plug on the volcano of our emotion, self-expression and individuality, it wasn't possible. So EV has seen nearly three decades of revolutions, changes in style and terminology, trainings, team-building programs, workshops, conferences, mutinies and purges - and everything stays the same. 'Direction is essential for the continuing existence of the crowd. Its constant fear of disintegration means that it will accept any goal. A crowd exists so long as it has an unattained goal.' - Elias Canetti The politics M is trying to amputate has been endemic to EV for 30 years. It's getting more petty and vicious - not less - as the caliber of those remaining dwindles, and EV's pool of available managerial talent shrinks. The secrecy is getting tighter too. Throughout the West people are getting really sick of the endless emphasis on 'confidentiality' - i.e. secrecy. In some places people have to sign confidentiality agreements before they can even do service. Managers and local contacts are starting to feel they're not able to share much with the groundtroops and church ladies any more, and they feel guilty when they do. (When you sin against the government, a corporation or even your family it's one thing: but sinning against The Living Master an the Whole Purpose of Existence is another.) I wonder how long the loyal Valerio will want to keep cleaning up the psychological messes created by the unreal relationships we premies have with M. Having been to several of V's trainings, I can vouch that he's a great trainer. But all the trainings, and the 'emergencies' Valerio is responsible for dealing with, will not do more than deal with symptoms - keep the lid on short-term. The basic dynamic needs to change. People need to create proper lives for themselves in the real world, and more importantly create proper inner lives for themselves. It's pretty obvious that most people who leave K start 'moving' in their relationships, careers, etc, better than before, when they were in the golden cage. But maybe the biggest thing is realising that the INNER life is better without Knowledge, and without Maharaji. Cleaner, happier, more even, more concrete. I've been on the phone in recent weeks to old friends who have done this. Sadly, I cut them off when they did - but now contact has been reestablished it's great. These guys have ended up happy. Those who've stayed have just got more and more stunted. I felt it in myself till I got out. Look around. EV is a psychic graveyard. And it's not because people have not done enough trainings. ****************************************xxxxx 'The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought (that is, a thought diverging from the principles of Ingsoc) should be literally unthinkable.' - George Orwell, 1984 One of the things I have found most surprising since leaving is that so few people followed orders to hand in the DLM magazines in the late 1970s. Ex-premies everywhere still have piles of them. The attempt to re-program us away from our early history - when Maharaji was God, his brothers divine incarnations, and we an elect group more or less guaranteed salvation - was thus a failure. Probably one of the worst aspects of the attempt to re-write history is the claim by Maharaji and EV that the Indian concepts of the 1970s were promulgated by the mahatmas, and that M had no role in this. In reality, one thing that M aways had direct control over - even as a teenager - was the activities of the mahatmas and instructors. And of course this is relevant not just to the 'Indian concepts' debate. It's highly relevant to the Jagdeo affair. Even Glen Whittaker, who hasn't strayed from the reservation in 30 years, believes Maharaji's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo's sexual abuses years ago - when he was given the opportunity - was a grave miscalculation. Both he and Mark Winter are very pissed at M for this, as they had to pick up the PR mess years down the track - a mess M could have prevented by exercising some responsibility several years ago. Running an 'apologise and explain' PR exercise for a master who shelters a child molester is hardly the kind of dream service for which these extremely sincere guys joined up at the start of the 1970s. I've known Glen since the early 1970s, and he is a decent, friendly guy. He'll probably be manning the bridge on the good ship EV as it sinks beneath the waves in about 2005, such is his loyalty to M. But he is nevertheless disappointed with M over this affair. And if Glen's disappointed, you can imagine how others feel. Glen believes that Jagdeo did commit the sexual abuse he is accused of - though he personally didn't know about it before the revelations of the last two years. Others did, however. Jagdeo's crimes have been known about within EV, and by Maharaji, for more than 20 years. For instance there was a high-level meeting about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children in 1980. Jagdeo appeared to have abused the child of a premie (a woman) then living in Florida. The woman was extremely wound up about it, and the instructor Maria Isabella - among others - was brought in to try and deal with her. Then as now, Maharaji had a very direct control, and a very thorough knowledge, of the activities of his instructors. In fact he controlled this aspect of his organisation more closely than any other. It's inconceivable that Maharaji was not aware of Jagdeo's activities then. But he chose not to act, beyond having the matter hushed up. The seachange finally took place when the revelations on EPO became too hard to ignore - especially in the UK. On January 22, 2000, Glen Whittaker wrote an official EV UK communication to Deepak (DUO India chief), informing him of the basic facts, and inquiring as to Jagdeo's whereabouts. It was realised that the Jagdeo 'problem' had the potential for unraveling things badly in the UK, because Maharaji's fingerprints were all over the cover-up. The revelations on EPO and the forum re Jagdeo's sexual abuse were the PR emergency of the decade for EV. I think what's happened since then is fairly well-known by people here. I'm fairly sure the civil action in India was devised as a 'blind' - to pacify critics with the appearance of action, and to reduce the chances of Jagdeo ever having to appear in a British courtroom. Glen wasn't involved in having the Jagdeo story suppressed in the Express - though he wasn't exactly on the side of the angels either. (When others found out about what Maharaji had permitted to happen, they left the cult - they didn't stay on to defend the indefensible.) EV's current read on the evil exes is that a kind of impasse has been reached: damage has been done, but there's not much more they can do, with Jagdeo in India. He'll never be allowed to set foot in the West again of course. The rules of the recent trainings are: 10 second rule conscious respect confidentiality honesty participate unanimous no brain farts no dark thoughts But the rule underlying all of these - at least the trainings I went to - was RESPONSIBILITY. People who didn't take responsibility for their actions were absolutely stomped on by M. I saw hard-boiled businessmen stumbling around in the Delhi dust in shock, and non-smokers take up smoking, after some of his temper explosions around the question of responsibilty. People were terrified: it is no exaggeration to say that some shook from head to foot. Many probably thought the sky was about to fall in. How does that all square with sitting on his hands since the late 1970s, when he was first informed of Jagdeo's criminal activities? Maybe Perfect Masters are somehow exempt from preventing child sexual abuse, because they have their eye on some larger karmic scene which is invisible to the rest of us? Believe that and you may as well believe in the tooth fairy. On a recent Delhi trip, I chatted with Jagdeo in the IOC, in the centre of the ashram - where we were both staying. He is not a 'sick old man' living in retirement in an Indian village. He is sprightly, reasonably fit-looking, and till recently at least had access to the centre of things in DUO India - maybe still does. He also still has access to children - was indeed spotted fondly patting one in the IOC in the last year or two - though I have no evidence that he is sexually abusing same, and hopefully this is unlikely after all the bad publicity. The Jagdeo affair is a towering example of the corruption that's set into the heart of what I believe to have, once, been a genuine attempt to help the world. That M is so central to Jagdeo's crimes continuing is, alone, reason enough for me to leave. There isn't a rationalization in the world that excuses complicity in raping children. That my friends continue to defend M in this respect seriously stretches my respect for them. ****************************************xxxx 'The disciple is unworthy; modestly he sits at the Master's feet and guards against having ideas of his own. Mental laziness becomes a virtue; one can at least bask in the sun of a semi-divine being. He can enjoy the archaism and infantilism of his unconscious fantasies without loss to himself, for all responsibility is laid at the Master's door.' - C.G. Jung 'Guru does not deal with us as father or as friend, but as children. As children.' - Maharaji The first seed of doubt was sown in my mind in 1997. In LA toward the end of that year, Maharaji was depressed for two or three months - right through till Christmas. I was quite shocked by this. Things had upset M at the end of the 1997 Amaroo event - like a cow getting into his private campground and shitting in front of his doorway. Everybody certainly heard about that: 'I almost stood in it!' (Not a cow shits without...) Also he was stopped by some security person on a road for not having a pass. Finally, the schizophrenic son of two premies dropped some acid, then wandered into his campground for a chat at the doorstep to the divine pent. M's radio calls to the security personnel were misunderstood, and people raced all over the property - except to where the problem was. His final radio call was pretty testy. But the thing that made him the most pissed was an article that appeared in an Aussie newspaper. I think it said that he was a rich guru who did rather well financially out of his devotees, or words to that effect. Not something you could actually argue with. He was really angry at the PR team for not somehow stopping that article from appearing. And I remember thinking - before I could censor myself in the time-honored premie way: 'Why doesn't he alter his own behavior if he wants to stop articles like that from appearing?' The article just described the luxury homes, the jet, etc, as far as I can recall. All of these things are M's lifestyle choices - not things invented by a malicious journalist. Naturally the PR team accepted the spears in the chest, and various post-mortems were done to ensure they performed better next time. NB: After this episode of divine depression in 1997, I logged onto the forum, and it definitely caused some drips. But there was so much invective here that I decided it was safer and saner in EV. (Which is really saying something.) The forum is still too abusive and unsafe for many people to belong. Several have left the forum for the same reason. There is a frequent tendency for angry and abusive people to dominate the debate, to shout down those who disagree with them, and to spray the forum with dozens of posts. On balance, the forum is a great boon to the ex world. But unless the above problem is somehow redressed, it will never attract a wide variety or large number of exes. ****************************************xxxxx 'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru... Remember, Guru is God. Bigger than God. Bigger and bigger than God... So, see that if you want to give devotion, give it to Guru. You will find that Guru is the Supremest of all. It is said that 'In a day I should bow many thousands, thousands, thousands, thousands, millions, millions and millions of times to Satguru.' Such a high thing, such a high power, has come. I was seeking for God, but God has come in body! What can be higher and holier than that?' - Maharaji 'Who says I am not under the special protection of God?' - Adolph Hitler It's fairly well-known that the people around Maharaji tend to be heavy-drinking and competitive, and to engage in internicine warfare. (They even joke about it themselves.) They're also frequently ill physically. Indeed most of the half-dozen people closest to M are physical wrecks. I think a lot of this comes from the chronic fear in which PAMs live - fear of displeasing the superior power in person. The majority of people who have been in Maharaji's company for prolonged periods no longer acknowledge him as their master. The 'loyal' exceptions - e.g. Marolyn, Monica, Sampur - generally have an economic or power benefits to keep them in the fold longer-term. ****************************************xxxxx 'When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've ever met, and then you learn that the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true! Don't give up your education, your hopes and ambitions, to follow a rainbow.' - Jeanne Mills, former member of the People's Temple. At the recent event down at Amaroo, there were serious financial losses from a malfunctioning credit card system - people's purchases didn't register. In the months before the event there was a premie revolt over the huge registration fees. Not long before the event only a few hundred had registered. Panic set in, and Padarthanand was sent on the road to explain how the fee wasn't mandatory after all(!) Thereafter, a large number of people were admitted for free. The upshot is that the Amaroo finances are not in good shape. Some of the premies whose loans and mortgages support its existence are getting a bit sweaty-palmed. The official story on the 2001 event is that it was all sweetness and light. But the usual brawls went on. Most of the tent-erecting team mutinied before the event, because of a 'fascist' manager. (It could have been 1974.) The manual workers, without whom the event wouldn't have happened, were kicked off the site at event time, as usual, which caused lots of bad feeling. Probably they'll all swallow it, and come back next year for more. Then complain again when the predictable happens. Serious intra-managerial disputes lingered on from the Sept 2000 fundraising event, where several relationships melted down amid that event's howling dust-storms, especially in the front-of-house area - which has always been a major source of potential revenue, thus the importance of cohesion there. Attending the Sept '00 fundraiser, the thing I enjoyed most was the bar at night - watching Yoram work the room (that guy should work for the GOP) and catching up with old friends. Valerio didn't get the respect during the day (the training) that he gets from poorer, community premies: these guys are rich, and aren't used to being patronized and belittled. He got put in his place a couple of times - though the training as a whole was fun and educational. Now, a year later, the defections of higher-level managers - some of them from K and M altogether - have left thinned-out upper EV echelons, and people are doing senior jobs who would not have been considered five years ago. There have been worried discussions about the quality of the folks who are now in quite senior managerial positions. ********************************************x 'A striking expression, with the aid of a small amount of truth, can surprise us into accepting a falsehood.' - Vauvenargues I'd guess that the disgraceful CAC site was M-approved, simply because every major venture of premies without exception is M-approved. (Not a penny drops...) A PR friend told me that the American premie writer Scott Ritter (he's currently hanging out down under I think) was deputized by the international team, earlier this year, to help come up with an online antidote to EPO that used 'radical new thinking'. Scott, I gather, was stymied by this. How could you shoot down so many well-attested facts? I woud surmise that CAC was born out of this frustration. Personally I think Scott is too nice to have created CAC, but the fact that he was put on the case this year suggests that an offical concern about EPO had reached sufficient heights for radical action to be taken - by someone. And taken it was. One reason CAC was pulled, I would guess, was that it was causing so much disgust even among the senior EV managers. Giving away exes' family's addresses, and tarring exes as pedophiles, is about as low as it gets: even the brainwashed have standards. The big-eating Frenchman would have kept this operation under the tightest of wraps, were it an officially sanctioned one. Even most of the PR team probably wouldn't have been told it was sanctioned by M - let alone anyone else. All the above re CAC is speculation - though not unreasonable speculation. It certainly fits with EV's pro-active pattern on the Internet since EPO began, of countering it. First came the large technical task of 'influencing' search engines so that search words like 'Maharaji' and 'Elan Vital' brought up the official sites first and the anti ones last. That job was done by an Australian techie in the late 1990s, and took him many months. Then Enjoying Life. Then Life's Great - which reversed the original policy of censoring premies. CAC kind of fits with a developing pattern. ****************************************xxxxx 'A morality based solely upon the tenuous thread of religious mythology is only effective for a comparatively primitive mind, through which God is invested with magical parental powers of punishment and reward. As people in general become emotionally healthier, more able to individuate from their parents, the gods become divested of their power to control.' - Robert Godwin As we grow away from this old, unhealthy parental relationship, I hope we exes can also get away from an adversarial relationship with premies. Their sins were till recently ours, and their blindness was ours too. A master-student dynamic distorts everything below it, but you don't see that when you're in it. An exhausted housemother falls asleep in the meditation room, and someone yells at her. A rich boy from Hardwar who got very lucky with the Western zeitgeist wants another Maserati, so premies forego things they and their children need to buy it for him. Someone commits suicide in the ashram, and the premie doctor fakes the death certificate. Not things people would normally do - but a cult provokes deep, strange loyalties, and 'abnormal' becomes normal. That's what a cult is, pretty much. We lived within this strange paradigm too. And accepted it, and propagated it to others. I think our task is to support each other in getting out, just as we supported each other on the way in, and for the duration. I strongly feel that we're all in it together: some have manned the lifeboats, and some have even rowed well clear of the sinking ship. But others are still in the ballroom listening to the band; and others still are fast asleep in their staterooms. But everybody is leaving, one way or another. It's a co-operative venture. We owe it to the church ladies, and even to the Glens and Valerios, to make it that way. If circumstances had been slightly different, they might be 'out' - building EPO, securing the safe ground for us to step on - and we might still be the front row with the arti trays, like those guys at Amaroo this year - pledging undying love to the womanizing, alcoholic Californian multi-millionaire whom we'd persuaded ourselves was the most important person on Earth - in blissful ignorance of the impending revival of the self we'd been taught to despise.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 06:23:04 (EDT) From: Zorro Email: None To: Channeling 'Pam' (repost) Subject: how many more times ?? Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:08:40 (EDT) From: Keep printing 'Pam'! Email: None To: Zorro Subject: Who knows? Message:

Who knows? Maybe it'll eventually seem true! Truth through repetition! 'We are at war with Eurasia. We've always been at war with Eurasia.' - George Orwell

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:48:28 (EDT) From: New Premie Email: None To: All Subject: can you help me? Message:

Can you tell me a little about Maharaji? I received k not long a go. I read here some ugly stuff about him. Is it true? Who is Maharaji?

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:20:15 (EDT) From: Suzanne Email: None To: New Premie Subject: Read all about him on EPO Message:

Go to www.ex-premie.org and read the history section. That will tell you a lot. In a nutshell, he's a guru who grew up in the guru business by peddling Eastern religious bullshit to gullible kids in the West in the early 70s, and they got so indoctrinated that a couple of thousand of them to this day, send him enough money so he lives in obscene luxury. Also, he has nothing to do with k, doesn't practice it himself, but he teaches people that he is giving them something special and that he has something to do with whatever nice meditation experience people might have, or hope to have, or think they might have if they were just devoted to him enough. He has financially, sexually, psychologically and morally ripped off thousands of people. Anything else you want to know?

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 07:53:05 (EDT) From: janet Email: None To: New Premie Subject: only you can help you Message:

the stuff here is true. I practiced knowledge for 28 years. i quit last year, tired of waiting for something that naver came, and fed up with being treated like crap. don't fall for the hype. it's all fake. maharaji doesnt practice knowledge, himself. never. he uses it to get your money, and that's ALL it is to him.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 07:38:14 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: New Premie Subject: Superior power in person..didn't you know? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 06:21:21 (EDT) From: Zorro Email: None To: New Premie Subject: Re: can you help me? Message:

How can you have received K and know nothing 'bout M??? I think you try to fool us.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:20:45 (EDT) From: Old Premie Email: None To: New Premie Subject: Yes. Message:

This is where you will the ugly stuff. Look inside to find the beauty. You know how. You know who showed you.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:40:39 (EDT) From: Old Premie Email: None To: New Premie Subject: Yes. Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:45:16 (EDT) From: jethro Email: None To: New Premie Subject: didn't you mean 'new pwk'NT Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:43:44 (EDT) From: Got a life Email: None To: New Premie Subject: Get a life, 'new premie' [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:20:41 (EDT) From: an old ex Email: None To: New Premie Subject: Re: can you help me? Message:

If you are a premie then what the hell you doing here and why did you take k. Nah, I think you are a caca. Scott is right.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:35:19 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: New Premie Subject: Trolling for exes. Message:

For some reason you just wreak of dyed-in-the-wool premie. I don't know why. Maybe it rained last night. Either that, or the bait's just gone rotten.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:05:43 (EDT) From: Francesca ~) Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: LOLs ()) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:26:15 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: New Premie Subject: check it out: facts vs. fiction Message:

http://www.ex-premie.org/ [ http://www.ex-premie.org/ ]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:43:39 (EDT) From: SC Email: None To: New Premie Subject: Go directly to Lifesgreat - do not ... Message:

do not pass Anything Goes Too, do not collect 200 jokes from E-Drek...do not visit It IS So. Collect no rent on your properties.. ...and miss a turn. You recently received Knowledge. And yet you don't know who Maharaji is? Sheesh! What's the citeria used these day, walk in the door and stick your hand up? Hey, come to think of it, that's exactly how it was for me in 1971. So nothing's changed!

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:57:33 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: SC Subject: Don't get too cozy, SC/David/Cerise Message:

Just in case you did not see this post from Jim further down (of course you did see it but chose to ignore it) here it is again: Jim said: ''If that's the case (that David Roupell posted as Cerise)he owes Abi an apology. Wasn't 'Cerise' the 'person' who made that 'rogue elephant' comment? This guy owes her one big, big, big apology for that one. There's no getting past it either. No compromise, no nothing. Abi's comfort here is paramount, in my view. David W (or is it David R? I'm still confused) simply has to resolve that, if he can, before I'd ever talk with him.'' I responded to Jim thus: ''I had forgotten about that, Jim. Yes, I'm sure David will rue the day that he ever said that. He must have been carried away with writer's vanity when he said it - intoxicated by the cleverness of his turn of phrase. Yes, if he is the decent guy that I am willing to believe he is, then he will offer Abi a public apology for that.'' How about it, me old mate?

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:07:42 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: New Premie Subject: To start I would suggest that you... Message:

...read the website at Expremies' Journeys. Reading how other people came to Maharaji and got Knowledge and then decided to leave is an easy and personal way to find out what ex-premies are all about. Once you have an idea of who we are and why we call ourselves ex-premies then it is easier to talk to people on the forum. If you are really serious then read all the other stuff on Ex-premie Website. I'm sure a lot of your questions will be answered. If they aren't then please fell free to ask questions here on the forum.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:05:18 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: New Premie Subject: Why don't you say more about yourself, first Message:

If you don't give yourself a fair introduction, than many people will see this for a hoax which, incidentally, it sounds like. As a matter of fact, it sounds JUST like the tone of posts were premies were playing games. A good place to start: Who are you? How did you hear about Maha? When did you get here? Why did you receive Knowledge? What convinced you? What exactly do you want to know about Maha? And why?

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:03:07 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo To: New Premie Subject: Re: can you help me? Message:

He is an Indian guy who inherited a family Guru business, although there turned out to be a family feud as to who the real heir was which wound up in the Indian courts. He purports to be a meditation Master and promotes four fairly common meditation techniques along with an agenda of devotion to him (thinly disguised). Evidence of the latter could be found at this year's Event at Amaroo, Australia, where his devotees filed past him and kissed his feet. He has amassed enormous wealth from his followers and also elicites blind devotion from many of them in the form of free work undertaken. Basically it is a form of Bhakti Yoga adapted for Westerners. Whether he has anything to offer is for you to find out, but my advice would be to hold onto your own discrimination and common sense and not allow yourself to swallow unsubstantiated claims about him. Personally, I fell for it hook line and sinker and am today a wiser and saner person, secure in the knowledge that no other person can do the spiritual work for you. But I wasted 10 years thinking that M was going to bring me enlightenment. Good Luck and check in with us from time to time!

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:02:07 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: All Subject: Pam's Memoirs reposted Message:

Subject: 'my memoirs' From: Pam To: All Date Posted: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:54:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat.' - Novalis Greetings to premies and ex-premies, Over recent years, as one of Maharaji's organisers, and an occasional PAM, I've seen many disturbing things in the world of Knowledge. Additionally, in conversation with other premies, numbers of equally disturbing things have been told to me. One, two, I could walk over, but gradually a picture has emerged that causes me concern for the welfare of people under Maharaji's aegis. I have come to the conclusion that it is time to say something about all of this. For a number of reasons that I do not wish to debate, I am choosing to remain anonymous. For myself, it is now clear, I am no longer a part of Maharaji's world, and though I do not wish to become a regular member of the ex premie forum, I would like to thank all involved for their insights and information, and for providing this forum for those people who are looking for answers. I started some time back putting down in writing all the things that are disturbing me. I've decided the best idea is to 'publish' appropriate extracts of this document here. Information is a powerful tool, though very little of it has been furnished to us by Maharaji's organisation, or by Maharaji himself. Indeed if I had to name the one pervasive theme of my experience with M - from the very early 1970s till 2001 - it would be secrecy. I am sure there are intelligence organisations that have less secrets than EV, and international spies who have less secrets than PAMs. For three decades, I have been one of the worst offenders. Information, of the type which has been provided at EPO and on the Forum - and below, I hope - allows premies, aspirants and interested outsiders to make informed decisions about joining or not joining, staying or leaving. In a way, all the opinions about M are secondary. The fact that Maharaji killed the cyclist in Delhi, and shifted the blame to a premie; that he drinks heavily; that he has selected premie women as sexual playthings; that he is worth 50 million US dollars; that for 25 years he has covered up, and declined to act on, a close lieutenant's sexual abuse of children...all this speaks volumes to those who want to make an informed decision. Our commentary and analysis is close to redundant. So, here is some more of that information - plus, admittedly, a bit of commentary. Another little corner of the M/K/DLM/EV jigsaw which grew so large for us over the last 30 years. A jigsaw which, till the ex-premie organisation started changing so many lives, we were only shown one or two pieces of at a time. The below is 18 pages - at least on my PC - so you may want to download it to your machine. Warm regards, Pam ****************************************xxxxxx 'How do you find a lion that has swallowed you?' - C.G. Jung It's been a long trek from the belly of the beast, up the esophagus, out the mouth and into the daylight. I hardly recognize the landscape, I've been in that belly so long. Quite recently, I've been in the strange positon of doing service for M while in my heart having left him. It was weird - but I got by. I made the final leap when I was ready. In the meantime I attended programs, did my work/service, and went through darshan, without feeling anything. It's bizarre to be in the cult environment and simultaneously deprogram yourself - but it can be done. What caused the shift? I think simply growing up was part of it. Believing in Santa Claus in advanced middle age just seemed too silly for words. Believing that Maharaji was the Living Master, to say nothing of the incarnation of God, was truly beyond the pale - especially when you'd learned enough of what he is like behind the stage act. (See below for all that.) But surely Maharaji hasn't taught that he's the incarnation of God since the 1970s? Yep. Sampuranand declared M to be Lord Krishna (the supreme God of Hinduism) onstage before 80,000 people in Delhi, in the late 1990s. M got up onstage straight after, to support the statement. The Indians loved it of course, though many of us Westerners were a little startled. What about the PR trainings we've had, where we're taught to tell media people that M has never claimed to be God? Maybe it doesn't apply if his statement is not made on American soil?? But in the end - in a strange quirk of fate - it was something little that did it for me. It was a conversation M had with a few of us about computers. Basically he was raving about Macs - how superior they were. I like Macs - though I don't own one - but frankly they are no better than PCs. They just come with a different set of pluses and minuses. M's brand chauvanism seemed really petty to me, and it made me wonder for the first time if he was such a wise figure after all. Funny how a trivial thing like that can trigger all your subterrainian doubts. Once those doubts began, they were like a torrent. Years of drips, then the Amazon in full flood. Once the 'doubtmaker' - i.e. your mind - begins to awaken, there's no stopping it. I could no more regard M as a special person now than fly to the moon. Even being in a room with him, toward the end, I just saw the screen on which I projected all my love, divinity, fear, and a whole bunch of Freudian father stuff. He's so ordinary once you see all that in yourself. But the last thing I want to do now is to make him into a monster. That's giving him an equal amount of power. In truth Maharaji is a pleasant enough guy much of the time. He is relaxed and relaxing to be with, and likes to make jokes and keep it light. He certainly relaxes in the company of men better than that of women - but he can get along with women too. He's just got the equation round the wrong way. M's 'doubtmaker' is actually your self. Your discrimination. Your identity. His 'Knowledge' is actually the illusion. What else could it be? You can't assess it or comprehend it. In practise (not in theory) it comes and goes all the time. 90% of those who practice it divorce their spouses. The organisation comprised of those who practice it is chronically dysfunctional - with leaders few people have liked, going back 30 years. Shattering stuff to realise after three decades - virtually the whole of one's adult life. A little like spending 30 years in Heaven, and at the end seeing that the angels were just guys with 5 o'clock shadow and acne who were paid $5 an hour to dress up; that all the singing was taped; and that the Almighty and his throne were just a pretty hologram. Bitterly disillusioning for a bit. But liberating thereafter - because finally you have some choices. ************************************************xxxx 'Repetition and forced attention are very conducive to the induction of a trance.' - Steve Hassan 'Because your mind troubles you, give it to me. It won't trouble me.' - Maharaji With some exceptions, premies as a group are low achievers. The reason, of course, is that premies' ideas about Maharaji and Knowledge depreciate the value of all other endeavour. Whether it's stated or not - and it isn't, thesedays - doing 'other things' just doesn't cut the ice that 'achieving the purpose of this life' does. So people who could be flying jets or creating successful businesses end up spending a lot of time sitting under blankets with their fingers in their ears. And one person who spends very little time with his fingers in his ears ends up flying jets. If you speak to any long-term PAMs - e.g. John Miller (captain of M's old yacht) or Randy Prouty - they'll tell you than M cannot not do events. He adores being adored. There's only one Major Achiever in the world of Knowledge - not 10,000. And there's only one person at a major event who is completely comfortable in the knowledge of who he is. Everybody else is shooting for the false moon he has installed in a false sky, and can never know rest. ********************************************xx 'Whatever deceives seems to produce a magical enchantment.' -Plato I know others have said there were no financial improprieties in EV. I can only speak from my own experience - which is that EV was substantially a cash organisation until the 1990s. Money raised from the membership for Maharaji's personal use - e.g. a new quarters at the 'Windmill' area of Amaroo, costing several hundred thousand dollars - is still kept off the books. Assuming one could keep Raja Ji's drink-sodden hands off them, the cash proceeds from darshan lines were commonly flown around the world in the suitcases of x-rated premies, till they found their 'home' in M's coffers. I'm talking two, three, four hundred thousand US dollars at a time. These poor couriers would freak out if hunger forced them to take out $10 to buy a meal. They also suffered serious anxiety as they neared their destinations, customs and immigration regulations being what they are. Raja Ji still pursues his traditional role of schmoozing, wining, dining and flattering rich premies to extract $$$ from them for the family coffers. This is not always successful, as some of these people have class, and Raja Ji is a rather gauche character. Having seen things from the inside, I'm still kind of shattered that thousands of innocent premies around the West think this thing is about Knowledge, love and the rest. It's a family business, and it's about money. Every recent Indian guru is the same: Sai Baba, Mukhtananda and Osho all trade(d) their spiritual credentials (which, like Maharaji's, are mostly faked anyway), and a convincing stage act, for cash payments from westerners who see themselves as spiritually impoverished. Money is the main game, but these people also get side-benefits from devotees, such as sex: Sai Baba gives oral sex to adolescent boys in the guise of some ceremony; Mukhtananda was well-known for raping adolescent girls in the guise of transferring 'shakti'; and Osho (a.k.a. Shri Rajneesh) would bonk anything that moved - telling his credulous followers that sex and enlightenment were more or less the same thing. Most of the above tolerate(d) abusive sexual behaviour by their lieutenants - most frequently child sexual abuse. Sound familiar? On the home front, the thing that concerns me most - as both a very-recently-ex-EV international organizer and as a human being - is the sexual antics of the instructors. The sexual frustration of the instructors is not something (thank God) I've experienced firsthand - but it is a kind of epidemic. Numerous premie women I know are molested, propositioned, pursued and worse by instructors, in many countries. Because these guys - many of whom I've known since the early 1970s - have never grown within a normal relationship, their approach to women now is highly dysfunctional and dishonest. I can't bring myself to name individuals - doing so would tarnish some of EV's brightest lights, of longest-standing. And they're mostly still my friends. We all got each other into the M cult - and now we're forming networks and giving support as, one by one, each individual is plucked out of it. So even the sexually abusive instructors - and that's the majority of those I know - are people I'd like to help out the door, rather than simply attack and discredit them. Having said that, this policy will change and names will be named, and incidents described in all their shameful, gory detail, if these practices continue. (And believe me, I know so many of the heartbroken women involved that I will definitely find out.) Too many women have been damaged by these serial womanisers/gropers/molesters (who lie to their current woman about their affairs with women in other 'ports') to allow this 'epidemic' to continue. This is not abuse a la Jagdeo - but it is playing with people's feelings in a callous, chronic way. I hope it's really clear that I'm going to blow the whistle on these people if this doesn't change. I don't want to hurt anyone - but at the same time unless these guys start to grow a bit, they'll continue hurting innocent, vulnerable girls all over the planet. And there's none so vulnerable as a woman who believes in the myth of 'Maharaji's instructors'. I should make it equally clear that I'm not talking about equal, consensual, honest relationships - e.g. Sampuranand and Bai Ji. And I'm not talking about some occasional on-the-road flings - we've all had those. I'm talking about using women as sexual playthings, and serial dishonesty, Maharaji-style. People around Maharaji (PAMs) get into power trips and bullying - the well-known 'mini-Maharaji' syndrome. Many PAMs drink a lot (or are alcoholics), just like the Master: throwing up on the way back to your tent after a night drinking with M around the campfire is not exactly unknown. Similarly, just like Maharaji, some instructors have misused their status for sexual gain. At the very least these instructors need to get counselling on how to form normal relationships. Ideally this counselling will take place post-K - because the inherently dysfunctional master-student relationship is the fertile soil from which dysfunctional approaches to women grow. A post-Knowledge setting for this kind of change is important, not only because Knowledge tends to replace/reduce normal growth, but because EV will never act against this sort of behaviour. The system thus encourages it. When reports are made (which is rare), EV takes no action. The only exception was when an instructor had to be spirited out of Australia some years ago following a sexual incident: otherwise EV's record is of no response, no action, no attempt to assist the women involved, and no attempt to change the climate which gives rise to the incidents. (In recent years policies have been written on sexual harassment. Believe me, they don't apply to M or the instructors.) M's attitudes to women don't help much either. He once told a group of us at Amaroo that he wanted to gather all the girls with 'good tits' at one end of the property, and all the girls with 'bad tits' at the other end. In his public satsangs he frequently uses the example of when 'you come home from a hard day's work and your wife doesn't have dinner on the table in time' and the like. I'm not wild about PC myself, but this sort of thinking surely belongs in the 1950s. I've learned recently from a PAM friend that the closest inner circle of PAMs - e.g. the permanent personal staff, those in the personal (now known as the 'executive') area at Amaroo, the airliner staff - have been trained to deceive Maharaji's wife in the Monica matter. For example if Marolyn enquires as to whether Monica is present in Maharaji's campground with him - and she is indeed there - these staff have been instructed to tell Marolyn that she is not. If Maharaji and Monica are staying in a hotel together, Marolyn is to be given the same line. I was surprised by this at first, as Marolyn has obviously known about Monica for some years. I can only presume that the depth and extent of Maharaji's relationship with Monica is what is being kept secret from his wife, via these institutionalised deceptions. It doesn't paint a pretty picture of Maharaji - but it makes the inner sanctum staff look even worse, IMO. It's a stark illustration of how one's values can deteriorate when one is focussed on the 'greater good' of keeping the Living Master. Such training also furthers the climate of deceit about this relationship. Even until the mid-1990s, Monica was telling me, when she entered an area where M was, that she was joining him to 'show him the latest videos' from Visions. As if everyone didn't know. The deceit - sorry, 'confidentiality' - is pervasive: the Monica thing is just the most visible example. The Indian premies, for instance, don't know that Maharaji eats meat, drinks and smokes - let alone that he has selected premie women from the audience for his sexual use. It would be a huge cultural leap for them to accept him if they found this out. Most would leave. For this reason Maharaji's lifestyle is kept top secret in India. Even in the West, no Indian premies (other than x-rated ones like Sampur) are allowed to do service in the personal area or Maharaji's kitchen, specifically because of the effect that learning of Maharaji's lifestyle would have on them. ****************************************xxxxxx 'Today's cults know how to effectively implant vivid negative images deep within members' unconscious minds, making it impossible for the member to even conceive of ever being happy and successful outside of the group. When the unconscious is programmed to accept the negative images, it behaves as though they were true. The unconscious mind is made to contain a substantial image-bank of all the bad things that will occur if anyone should ever betray the group.' - Steven Hassan By the late 1990s, EPO was starting to crack through the dynamic described by Hassan - showing just how powerful the Internet is. Premies were reading posts and journeys from people they'd once known and trusted - people who had left Maharaji, and left knowledge, but - unaccountably - had not turned into rotten vegetables. People started to leave. One of these was the woman assigned by the PR team to monitor the Forum, amusingly enough. To counter the rising problem of EPO, M had spent a log time trashing the Web - calling it, for example, 'the world wide parking lot'. This didn't work: premies got wired as much and as enthusiastically as everyone else. So the decision was made by Maharaji in July '98 to inaugurate an EV website. Mark Winter in the UK was given the task. The publicly stated reason for Enjoying Life was to propagate K and give premies a chance to express gratitude. Maharaji confided to the group responsible for it that the site's real purpose was to counter the anti-M sites - EPO basically. Latitude was given to Mark W in creating the site - i.e. premies were allowed/encouraged to diverge from the party-line devotional blather and mention problems they might have had getting their minds around Knowledge, and even a few jokes passed by the censors. That was to give the Enjoying Life site a bit of the 'realism' or rawness that traditional EV propaganda has usually lacked - and which EPO has in abundance. The Enjoying Life site was basically established as EPO's online competitor. In October 98, M told me he was extremely pleased with the result: I saw his Net-phobia evaporate overnight. ******************************************** 'The most curious part of the thing was, that the trees and the other things round them never changed their places at all: however fast they went, they never seemed to pass anything. 'I wonder if all the things move along with us?' thought poor puzzled Alice. And the Queen seemed to guess her thoughts, for she cried, 'Faster! Don't try to talk!'' Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass EV has nearly come to a halt at the present. Less people have received Knowledge in the West in the past year than in any year since 1971 - a 30-year low. Currently there is a participation drought throughout the West. People are pulling back, and getting on with their real lives. EV is being run by some of the old stalwarts, but the future of both the organisation's structure and the personnel who run it is uncertain. For once this is not because of mass burn-outs or M's habit of firing personnel left, right and center - it's because of a withdrawal of groundtroops. In Australia, the jewel in M's crown, Amaroo is apparently laying off staff, and activty is very low due to lack of funds. It's not clear who's going to be running the country's organisation overall. This follows a recent move by Derek Harper (instructor), Lee Marges and Catherine Gavigan (organisers) to oust Kay McKinnon (Pacific contact). It was generally believed that her $50,000+ annual salary could be better spent elsewhere. Kay McKinnon has survived for now, but that status is far from certain for even the middle-term. (A lot of people have been bucking for her to be booted for years.) Thus no-one down under really knows how to begin planning for the organisation's future. Ironically, all this happens against a backdrop of Maharaji's statement to the rich guys at the Arizona conference last month that he 'wants the politics to stop'. The politics in EV can never stop, as it's created by imprisoning people's democratic instincts within a top-down theocratic heirarchy: Maharaji, his family, PAMs, instructors, organisers, groundtroops and church ladies. Thus there will always be tension between instinct, conscience and common sense on the one side, and the uncomfortable, ultimately inhuman imperatives of the master-student relationship on the other. In kicking against this spirit-shrivelling dynamic in themselves, EV people also kick against each other - for they generally project the problem outward. Thus other organisers - but not me - are 'petty', 'insensitive', 'manipulative' and 'power-hungry'. In a normal organisation this could be ironed out with psychological growth. In one where the expansive behind of the Living Master of The Time sits like a lava plug on the volcano of our emotion, self-expression and individuality, it wasn't possible. So EV has seen nearly three decades of revolutions, changes in style and terminology, trainings, team-building programs, workshops, conferences, mutinies and purges - and everything stays the same. 'Direction is essential for the continuing existence of the crowd. Its constant fear of disintegration means that it will accept any goal. A crowd exists so long as it has an unattained goal.' - Elias Canetti The politics M is trying to amputate has been endemic to EV for 30 years. It's getting more petty and vicious - not less - as the caliber of those remaining dwindles, and EV's pool of available managerial talent shrinks. The secrecy is getting tighter too. Throughout the West people are getting really sick of the endless emphasis on 'confidentiality' - i.e. secrecy. In some places people have to sign confidentiality agreements before they can even do service. Managers and local contacts are starting to feel they're not able to share much with the groundtroops and church ladies any more, and they feel guilty when they do. (When you sin against the government, a corporation or even your family it's one thing: but sinning against The Living Master an the Whole Purpose of Existence is another.) I wonder how long the loyal Valerio will want to keep cleaning up the psychological messes created by the unreal relationships we premies have with M. Having been to several of V's trainings, I can vouch that he's a great trainer. But all the trainings, and the 'emergencies' Valerio is responsible for dealing with, will not do more than deal with symptoms - keep the lid on short-term. The basic dynamic needs to change. People need to create proper lives for themselves in the real world, and more importantly create proper inner lives for themselves. It's pretty obvious that most people who leave K start 'moving' in their relationships, careers, etc, better than before, when they were in the golden cage. But maybe the biggest thing is realising that the INNER life is better without Knowledge, and without Maharaji. Cleaner, happier, more even, more concrete. I've been on the phone in recent weeks to old friends who have done this. Sadly, I cut them off when they did - but now contact has been reestablished it's great. These guys have ended up happy. Those who've stayed have just got more and more stunted. I felt it in myself till I got out. Look around. EV is a psychic graveyard. And it's not because people have not done enough trainings. ****************************************xxxxx 'The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought (that is, a thought diverging from the principles of Ingsoc) should be literally unthinkable.' - George Orwell, 1984 One of the things I have found most surprising since leaving is that so few people followed orders to hand in the DLM magazines in the late 1970s. Ex-premies everywhere still have piles of them. The attempt to re-program us away from our early history - when Maharaji was God, his brothers divine incarnations, and we an elect group more or less guaranteed salvation - was thus a failure. Probably one of the worst aspects of the attempt to re-write history is the claim by Maharaji and EV that the Indian concepts of the 1970s were promulgated by the mahatmas, and that M had no role in this. In reality, one thing that M aways had direct control over - even as a teenager - was the activities of the mahatmas and instructors. And of course this is relevant not just to the 'Indian concepts' debate. It's highly relevant to the Jagdeo affair. Even Glen Whittaker, who hasn't strayed from the reservation in 30 years, believes Maharaji's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo's sexual abuses years ago - when he was given the opportunity - was a grave miscalculation. Both he and Mark Winter are very pissed at M for this, as they had to pick up the PR mess years down the track - a mess M could have prevented by exercising some responsibility several years ago. Running an 'apologise and explain' PR exercise for a master who shelters a child molester is hardly the kind of dream service for which these extremely sincere guys joined up at the start of the 1970s. I've known Glen since the early 1970s, and he is a decent, friendly guy. He'll probably be manning the bridge on the good ship EV as it sinks beneath the waves in about 2005, such is his loyalty to M. But he is nevertheless disappointed with M over this affair. And if Glen's disappointed, you can imagine how others feel. Glen believes that Jagdeo did commit the sexual abuse he is accused of - though he personally didn't know about it before the revelations of the last two years. Others did, however. Jagdeo's crimes have been known about within EV, and by Maharaji, for more than 20 years. For instance there was a high-level meeting about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children in 1980. Jagdeo appeared to have abused the child of a premie (a woman) then living in Florida. The woman was extremely wound up about it, and the instructor Maria Isabella - among others - was brought in to try and deal with her. Then as now, Maharaji had a very direct control, and a very thorough knowledge, of the activities of his instructors. In fact he controlled this aspect of his organisation more closely than any other. It's inconceivable that Maharaji was not aware of Jagdeo's activities then. But he chose not to act, beyond having the matter hushed up. The seachange finally took place when the revelations on EPO became too hard to ignore - especially in the UK. On January 22, 2000, Glen Whittaker wrote an official EV UK communication to Deepak (DUO India chief), informing him of the basic facts, and inquiring as to Jagdeo's whereabouts. It was realised that the Jagdeo 'problem' had the potential for unraveling things badly in the UK, because Maharaji's fingerprints were all over the cover-up. The revelations on EPO and the forum re Jagdeo's sexual abuse were the PR emergency of the decade for EV. I think what's happened since then is fairly well-known by people here. I'm fairly sure the civil action in India was devised as a 'blind' - to pacify critics with the appearance of action, and to reduce the chances of Jagdeo ever having to appear in a British courtroom. Glen wasn't involved in having the Jagdeo story suppressed in the Express - though he wasn't exactly on the side of the angels either. (When others found out about what Maharaji had permitted to happen, they left the cult - they didn't stay on to defend the indefensible.) EV's current read on the evil exes is that a kind of impasse has been reached: damage has been done, but there's not much more they can do, with Jagdeo in India. He'll never be allowed to set foot in the West again of course. The rules of the recent trainings are: 10 second rule conscious respect confidentiality honesty participate unanimous no brain farts no dark thoughts But the rule underlying all of these - at least the trainings I went to - was RESPONSIBILITY. People who didn't take responsibility for their actions were absolutely stomped on by M. I saw hard-boiled businessmen stumbling around in the Delhi dust in shock, and non-smokers take up smoking, after some of his temper explosions around the question of responsibilty. People were terrified: it is no exaggeration to say that some shook from head to foot. Many probably thought the sky was about to fall in. How does that all square with sitting on his hands since the late 1970s, when he was first informed of Jagdeo's criminal activities? Maybe Perfect Masters are somehow exempt from preventing child sexual abuse, because they have their eye on some larger karmic scene which is invisible to the rest of us? Believe that and you may as well believe in the tooth fairy. On a recent Delhi trip, I chatted with Jagdeo in the IOC, in the centre of the ashram - where we were both staying. He is not a 'sick old man' living in retirement in an Indian village. He is sprightly, reasonably fit-looking, and till recently at least had access to the centre of things in DUO India - mayb

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:53:08 (EDT) From: got a life Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Pam's Memoirs reposted Message:

What the f.....k were we involved in? It is all too unbelievable. If there is a God, it would be comforting to know that we will be somehow protected from falling into such a BIG HOLE ever again. All I ever did was 'go to satsang', and look where it lead .......... to an association with all of this stuff. Your research and insight is phenomenal. Thank you.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:05:32 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: JHB Subject: Second half Message:

He is not a 'sick old man' living in retirement in an Indian village. He is sprightly, reasonably fit-looking, and till recently at least had access to the centre of things in DUO India - maybe still does. He also still has access to children - was indeed spotted fondly patting one in the IOC in the last year or two - though I have no evidence that he is sexually abusing same, and hopefully this is unlikely after all the bad publicity. The Jagdeo affair is a towering example of the corruption that's set into the heart of what I believe to have, once, been a genuine attempt to help the world. That M is so central to Jagdeo's crimes continuing is, alone, reason enough for me to leave. There isn't a rationalization in the world that excuses complicity in raping children. That my friends continue to defend M in this respect seriously stretches my respect for them. ****************************************xxxx 'The disciple is unworthy; modestly he sits at the Master's feet and guards against having ideas of his own. Mental laziness becomes a virtue; one can at least bask in the sun of a semi-divine being. He can enjoy the archaism and infantilism of his unconscious fantasies without loss to himself, for all responsibility is laid at the Master's door.' - C.G. Jung 'Guru does not deal with us as father or as friend, but as children. As children.' - Maharaji The first seed of doubt was sown in my mind in 1997. In LA toward the end of that year, Maharaji was depressed for two or three months - right through till Christmas. I was quite shocked by this. Things had upset M at the end of the 1997 Amaroo event - like a cow getting into his private campground and shitting in front of his doorway. Everybody certainly heard about that: 'I almost stood in it!' (Not a cow shits without...) Also he was stopped by some security person on a road for not having a pass. Finally, the schizophrenic son of two premies dropped some acid, then wandered into his campground for a chat at the doorstep to the divine pent. M's radio calls to the security personnel were misunderstood, and people raced all over the property - except to where the problem was. His final radio call was pretty testy. But the thing that made him the most pissed was an article that appeared in an Aussie newspaper. I think it said that he was a rich guru who did rather well financially out of his devotees, or words to that effect. Not something you could actually argue with. He was really angry at the PR team for not somehow stopping that article from appearing. And I remember thinking - before I could censor myself in the time-honored premie way: 'Why doesn't he alter his own behavior if he wants to stop articles like that from appearing?' The article just described the luxury homes, the jet, etc, as far as I can recall. All of these things are M's lifestyle choices - not things invented by a malicious journalist. Naturally the PR team accepted the spears in the chest, and various post-mortems were done to ensure they performed better next time. NB: After this episode of divine depression in 1997, I logged onto the forum, and it definitely caused some drips. But there was so much invective here that I decided it was safer and saner in EV. (Which is really saying something.) The forum is still too abusive and unsafe for many people to belong. Several have left the forum for the same reason. There is a frequent tendency for angry and abusive people to dominate the debate, to shout down those who disagree with them, and to spray the forum with dozens of posts. On balance, the forum is a great boon to the ex world. But unless the above problem is somehow redressed, it will never attract a wide variety or large number of exes. ****************************************xxxxx 'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru... Remember, Guru is God. Bigger than God. Bigger and bigger than God... So, see that if you want to give devotion, give it to Guru. You will find that Guru is the Supremest of all. It is said that 'In a day I should bow many thousands, thousands, thousands, thousands, millions, millions and millions of times to Satguru.' Such a high thing, such a high power, has come. I was seeking for God, but God has come in body! What can be higher and holier than that?' - Maharaji 'Who says I am not under the special protection of God?' - Adolph Hitler It's fairly well-known that the people around Maharaji tend to be heavy-drinking and competitive, and to engage in internicine warfare. (They even joke about it themselves.) They're also frequently ill physically. Indeed most of the half-dozen people closest to M are physical wrecks. I think a lot of this comes from the chronic fear in which PAMs live - fear of displeasing the superior power in person. The majority of people who have been in Maharaji's company for prolonged periods no longer acknowledge him as their master. The 'loyal' exceptions - e.g. Marolyn, Monica, Sampur - generally have an economic or power benefits to keep them in the fold longer-term. ****************************************xxxxx 'When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've ever met, and then you learn that the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true! Don't give up your education, your hopes and ambitions, to follow a rainbow.' - Jeanne Mills, former member of the People's Temple. At the recent event down at Amaroo, there were serious financial losses from a malfunctioning credit card system - people's purchases didn't register. In the months before the event there was a premie revolt over the huge registration fees. Not long before the event only a few hundred had registered. Panic set in, and Padarthanand was sent on the road to explain how the fee wasn't mandatory after all(!) Thereafter, a large number of people were admitted for free. The upshot is that the Amaroo finances are not in good shape. Some of the premies whose loans and mortgages support its existence are getting a bit sweaty-palmed. The official story on the 2001 event is that it was all sweetness and light. But the usual brawls went on. Most of the tent-erecting team mutinied before the event, because of a 'fascist' manager. (It could have been 1974.) The manual workers, without whom the event wouldn't have happened, were kicked off the site at event time, as usual, which caused lots of bad feeling. Probably they'll all swallow it, and come back next year for more. Then complain again when the predictable happens. Serious intra-managerial disputes lingered on from the Sept 2000 fundraising event, where several relationships melted down amid that event's howling dust-storms, especially in the front-of-house area - which has always been a major source of potential revenue, thus the importance of cohesion there. Attending the Sept '00 fundraiser, the thing I enjoyed most was the bar at night - watching Yoram work the room (that guy should work for the GOP) and catching up with old friends. Valerio didn't get the respect during the day (the training) that he gets from poorer, community premies: these guys are rich, and aren't used to being patronized and belittled. He got put in his place a couple of times - though the training as a whole was fun and educational. Now, a year later, the defections of higher-level managers - some of them from K and M altogether - have left thinned-out upper EV echelons, and people are doing senior jobs who would not have been considered five years ago. There have been worried discussions about the quality of the folks who are now in quite senior managerial positions. ********************************************x 'A striking expression, with the aid of a small amount of truth, can surprise us into accepting a falsehood.' - Vauvenargues I'd guess that the disgraceful CAC site was M-approved, simply because every major venture of premies without exception is M-approved. (Not a penny drops...) A PR friend told me that the American premie writer Scott Ritter (he's currently hanging out down under I think) was deputized by the international team, earlier this year, to help come up with an online antidote to EPO that used 'radical new thinking'. Scott, I gather, was stymied by this. How could you shoot down so many well-attested facts? I woud surmise that CAC was born out of this frustration. Personally I think Scott is too nice to have created CAC, but the fact that he was put on the case this year suggests that an offical concern about EPO had reached sufficient heights for radical action to be taken - by someone. And taken it was. One reason CAC was pulled, I would guess, was that it was causing so much disgust even among the senior EV managers. Giving away exes' family's addresses, and tarring exes as pedophiles, is about as low as it gets: even the brainwashed have standards. The big-eating Frenchman would have kept this operation under the tightest of wraps, were it an officially sanctioned one. Even most of the PR team probably wouldn't have been told it was sanctioned by M - let alone anyone else. All the above re CAC is speculation - though not unreasonable speculation. It certainly fits with EV's pro-active pattern on the Internet since EPO began, of countering it. First came the large technical task of 'influencing' search engines so that search words like 'Maharaji' and 'Elan Vital' brought up the official sites first and the anti ones last. That job was done by an Australian techie in the late 1990s, and took him many months. Then Enjoying Life. Then Life's Great - which reversed the original policy of censoring premies. CAC kind of fits with a developing pattern. ****************************************xxxxx 'A morality based solely upon the tenuous thread of religious mythology is only effective for a comparatively primitive mind, through which God is invested with magical parental powers of punishment and reward. As people in general become emotionally healthier, more able to individuate from their parents, the gods become divested of their power to control.' - Robert Godwin As we grow away from this old, unhealthy parental relationship, I hope we exes can also get away from an adversarial relationship with premies. Their sins were till recently ours, and their blindness was ours too. A master-student dynamic distorts everything below it, but you don't see that when you're in it. An exhausted housemother falls asleep in the meditation room, and someone yells at her. A rich boy from Hardwar who got very lucky with the Western zeitgeist wants another Maserati, so premies forego things they and their children need to buy it for him. Someone commits suicide in the ashram, and the premie doctor fakes the death certificate. Not things people would normally do - but a cult provokes deep, strange loyalties, and 'abnormal' becomes normal. That's what a cult is, pretty much. We lived within this strange paradigm too. And accepted it, and propagated it to others. I think our task is to support each other in getting out, just as we supported each other on the way in, and for the duration. I strongly feel that we're all in it together: some have manned the lifeboats, and some have even rowed well clear of the sinking ship. But others are still in the ballroom listening to the band; and others still are fast asleep in their staterooms. But everybody is leaving, one way or another. It's a co-operative venture. We owe it to the church ladies, and even to the Glens and Valerios, to make it that way. If circumstances had been slightly different, they might be 'out' - building EPO, securing the safe ground for us to step on - and we might still be the front row with the arti trays, like those guys at Amaroo this year - pledging undying love to the womanizing, alcoholic Californian multi-millionaire whom we'd persuaded ourselves was the most important person on Earth - in blissful ignorance of the impending revival of the self we'd been taught to despise.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:07:23 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: JHB Subject: Sorry about lack of formatting Message:

The archiving facility here appears to wipe out paragraph breaks. Also, sorry about being behind with the archiving. I'll try to catch up this week. John.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:42:21 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: All Subject: At least the FA is vigelant Message:

The supressor of free speech. An element of the establishement. Down with FA, long live the spammers :)

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:09:45 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: salam Subject: I've sold out Message:

Well, everyone has a price, I guess. But it's rogue elements like Jim (a forum plant, btw) who keep trying to steer the conversation away from the Lard and onto the maya.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:16:50 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: I've sold out Message:

Am actually surprised to see this thread is still here. And I do agree, Jim is a forum plant, but does that mean that I can post on bin layden without having my thread locked?

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 14:06:14 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: salam Subject: I'm vegeland, too [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:40:22 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: So what? Now religion's taboo too? Message:

What's going on, Gerry? Did you actually expect that that article showing how even bin Laden and the Taliban aren't strict enough for 'real' Islamic extremists would somehow lead to a big argument or something? How? Naw, you're trigger happy on that lock button, Gerry. That's not good.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:06:29 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too? Message:

Jim, this is the first lock since D-Day. Not exactly trigger happy behavior. So this is about religion and not politics? I can unlock threads as easily as lock them so all you have to do is ask. Personally, I think this discussion should go to Anything Goes Too. This place is reserved for discussion about maharaji cult-related issues. Besides, Bin Laden and Taliban are fightin' words. I'm not goin' there again.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 23:30:15 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: gerry Subject: Hurrah for Gerry ! Message:

I know I waded in here with political talk when i was shocked and stunned after the 11th, but for what it is worth I am happy that this place has at last found an FA who isnt going to be pushed around. Hurrah for Gerry.... However my dilemma now is the same as that which faces every Vicar on Sunday... and every Premie who ever graced the satsang chair...how to to make a rambling sermon appear seemlessly On Topic. so what I would like to say is this... for me, personally, its like, ... you know... this feeeling.. That being FA here must be a difficult task, our Lord having washed the brains, it seems that we will cling to every thought and scrap of righteousness in order to assert ourselves in reaction to the pattern of thought which he set up... a pattern of 'Not being' 'Not being' was our bliss and our choice, and our vulnerability. We were never the issue.. and our personality was only ever going to get in the way. He was the good stuff, Knowledge was the good stuff... we were the sin riddled post-Christian carriers of 'truth' - the unworthy vessels of a great and eternal light. Mere hosepipes for the bathwater that the living Lord was dishing out... it now seems that all the time, the hosepipes, our very personalities were precious... were the 'babies' we so willingly hurled into oblivion. precious or not, our personalities for some are all we now have... we are like infants who for years had been given industrial strength enemas... and is it any surprise we are finding it difficult to walk in a straight line ? In keeping this place on topic, gerry is stopping us from wandering off. He guides us, protects us... and cos we are full of shit now... he is our nappy. Long may he serve This may read cynically... but i am just having fun .. its late and I cant sleep :0)

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:57:25 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Baby enema ceremonies? Message:

Loaf wrote: Mere hosepipes for the bathwater that the living Lord was dishing out... it now seems that all the time, the hosepipes, our very personalities were precious... were the 'babies' we so willingly hurled into oblivion. precious or not, our personalities for some are all we now have... we are like infants who for years had been given industrial strength enemas... I propose that Loafie's words become the official song for all Baby Throwing Festivals. It should be sung to the tune of "You are my mother and you are my etc..." My only concern is that some people take it too literally and start expecting Baby Colonic Irrigation Ceremonies. Also, Loaf, you call Gerry ''our nappy.'' I think it's a bit rude because it means we poop on him. Now perhaps you should call him ''our nanny who puts nappies on us so we don't poop on the floor.'' But I enjoyed the serious bits too i.e. the ''not being.'' On the nail.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:18:08 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too? Message:

Gerry, It IS about religion. It's about fanaticism. It's about craziness in the name of religion and ALL of that is relevant to this little cult we were in. Did you even read it? It's a hoot. A scary one, but a hoot nonetheless. (In fact, you should take a look a the picture on the linked website itself. Better than the Onion). Forget about the political aspect of all this, it's as if world events have thrown the whole issue of faith and fanaticism wide open. The whole world is now considering, amongst other things, some of the stuff we've necessarily been talking about for years. I don't see how blocking that discussion is good or necessary. I mean, it's not as if there are really two sides to this, not like the hot and heavy political issues we got bogged down in. You know, another article I thought of showing people was the one in the link about this conference for world religious and political leaders on world peace hosted by none other than rev. Moon. There's a political aspect to it, sure, but there's also this whole cult side to the story. I think that people have the general point that we shouldn't allow ourselves to bog down in divisive political discussions. But there IS a world out there and, like I say, much of what's happening resonates issue-wise here. What do you think? [ The Moonies host a picnic ]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 17:23:30 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Jim Subject: Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too? Message:

I think I agree with you Jim. Cults and religous fanatacism are very much on the agenda. In India 1972 I remember having a violent argument with a WPC premie who maintained 'there will have to be bloodshed' (to spread this knowledge). He was arguing along those dangerous lines 'the end justifies the means'. I knew premies who would literally do anything for M. I think the cultic/religous complexion of the war is suitable fodder for this forum. 'Ideals are brutal things'.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:38:52 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: What do I think? Message:

I think you are very persuasive. Faith and fanaticism IS what Rawat's cult is all about. But I can foresee the same divisive debate happening like deja vu all over again, though.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:00:37 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: What do I think? Message:

I think you are very persuasive. Faith and fanaticism IS what Rawat's cult is all about. But I can foresee the same divisive debate happening like deja vu all over again, though. So, basically what you're saying is that it's divisive debates that are taboo, according to your ad hoc criteria. Fine. Just want to be clear. --Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 21:05:17 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: It's more like ad hic (sic) Message:

So, basically what you're saying is that it's divisive debates that are taboo, according to your ad hoc criteria. Fine. Just want to be clear. --Scott Scott, I was was responding to Jim's statement: I think that people have the general point that we shouldn't allow ourselves to bog down in divisive political discussions. But there IS a world out there and, like I say, much of what's happening resonates issue-wise here. I think we are working towards some consensus here, and I would like to see it develop organically. Your input is valued and I hope we can communicate as equals.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:18:18 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: It's more like ad hic (sic) Message:

I don't know what process you're contemplating as producing a 'consensus' but I don't see one. I see attempts to discuss this resulting in locked threads, threats to block, deleted posts, etc. Gerry, I just don't trust you... and never will. Once the process is out of your hands we may be able to discuss things objectively, but this is now, and then is then. --Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:34:14 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: bin Laden a liberal wet! Message:

Did you actually expect that that article showing how even bin Laden and the Taliban aren't strict enough for 'real' Islamic extremists would somehow lead to a big argument or something? How? Well, some damned Brit might suggest that perhaps killing bin Laden is a Bad Idea as it would just make room for those who consider him too soft to move in on his turf. I want to talk about this stuff, but (fwiw) I also agree it's best to do it at AG2. Good discussions do take place there (I think Scott T and Salam went six rounds with only 29 boofheads and 723 patronising putdowns). Why not keep wartalk to AG?

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:38:55 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: JohnT Subject: PS Message:

I can't even read locked threads. Nothing comes up in this browser. Any chance of posting the link over at AG too? Please?

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:12:53 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: JohnT Subject: You need IE to read locked threads Message:

Netscape can't do it.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:45:41 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Tell you what Message:

Here's the URL. Read it and then tell me this isn't a) one of the funniest things you've ever read in the past month and b ) relevant in the same way that all cult stuff is: http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/10/21/stiusausa02030.html? I just read it again, this time out loud to Laurie. It is SOOOOOO funny! It reads exactly like an Onion article but it's for real.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:23:48 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Jim Subject: Just like the Onion ~) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:52:11 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'Excessively liberal' LOL [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:22:18 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: Posted at Anything Goes Too [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 12:57:29 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Funnier than fiction Message:

Don't forget to look at the moderate extremist's picture. This shit is crazier than the Onion ULTRA ZEALOTS: If you think Bin Laden is extreme - some Muslims want to kill him because he's soft Nicholas Hellen IF YOU thought Osama Bin Laden's brand of Islamic fundamentalism was as extreme as it gets, think again. A rival group of Muslim terrorists exists which regards him as an infidel who has sold out. Bin Laden's declaration of war against the West has failed to impress Takfir wal-Hijra, an ultra-hardcore group that has won a reputation for unbridled savagery in Egypt and Sudan. Its fundamentalism is so extreme that members have embarked on killing sprees in mosques against fellow Muslims in the belief that a pure Islamic state can be built only if the corrupt elements of the last one are wiped out. In this they see Bin Laden and his followers as pragmatists who are 'excessively liberal'. To drive the point home, four of its members pulled up in a pick-up truck outside his house in Sudan in 1995, spraying it with bullets in an effort to kill him. Ironically, militant Muslims in Britain who have been happy to endorse Bin Laden's attacks on western society are indignant at the prospect of the Takfir threatening them. 'They are nothing but a bunch of extremists,' said Abu Hamza, the claw-handed radical preacher at Finsbury Park mosque in north London, who outraged public opinion in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center by describing them as an act of 'self-defence'. Hamza, who has encouraged young Muslims to take up a jihad against the West, is concerned about the Takfir's irrational aggression. 'They kill Muslims,' he said last week. 'These people create nothing and destroy everything. It is not right to be as harsh as they are. These people want to be judges and executioners.' Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, who runs Al-Muhajiroun, an organisation devoted to creating an international Muslim superstate, to include Britain, was equally upset about Takfir last week. 'They are fanatics,' said the man whose organisation, based in a Tottenham industrial estate, has denied endorsing attacks on Tony Blair after the bombing of Afghanistan started. 'They cannot be compared to Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, who have many eminent scholars behind them.' Takfir was founded by Shukri Mustafa, a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, who was imprisoned in the mid-1960s and joined the radical disciples of Qutb while in prison. He built the Takfir - the full title of which means 'repentance and isolation' - on his release in 1971. Mustafa was executed after he kidnapped and murdered an Egyptian government minister in 1978. In the early 1980s President Hosni Mubarak attempted to crush his terrorist group by arresting 350 suspected members, but many escaped into the deserts of north Africa. During its 30-year existence, the Takfir has repeatedly attacked fellow Muslims as part of a drive to cleanse the Islamic world in preparation for building a new and pure Islamic state. Last December, one of its adherents shot 23 worshippers in a mosque of the pacifist Ansar al-Sunna sect, near the Sudanese capital of Khartoum. Takfir fanatics have carried out two other attacks on Ansar's mosques since 1996, apparently because they disagree with its peaceful approach. According to the Takfir's twisted logic, the failure of existing Muslim regimes to impose full sharia - Islamic law - means they and their citizens are rebelling against God's sovereignty. While scholars accept an individual's right to interpret the Koran, leaving the ultimate judgment to God, Takfir denounces all but those who copy the behaviour of the prophet Muhammad as infidels and promises to kill them. Takfir has attempted to justify its violence by claiming it is necessary to demolish Islam before reconstructing it in a purer form. Its hostility to Bin Laden first erupted in Sudan in the mid-1990s. Bin Laden settled there in 1991 after fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. He spent five years in the country building businesses and his Al-Qaeda terrorist organisation before being expelled in 1996. A year before he left he was attacked at his home in Khartoum by four Takfir members who drove up in a Toyota Hilux pick-up at about 4pm brandishing Kalashnikovs. They were on their way home, having killed 12 Muslims at a local mosque. Eyewitnesses say they opened fire on the house and another occupied by Bin Laden's fighters, but his guards were alert and fought back. Four of them died, as did three of the four Takfir members. The fourth was captured by the Sudanese police and hanged. 'After that action, Bin Laden closed the road,' said Amar Osman, a local man who witnessed the attack. 'Trenches were dug at either end of the street, closing it to all vehicles - and after midnight even pedestrians were stopped, questioned and searched. 'A partial barricade also went up on the side street that entered the block opposite Bin Laden's house, reducing access to a single lane. You could get in but not out.' Six years on, the feud may now be resumed because the Takfir are said to be 'angered' at Bin Laden's leadership of a 'compromised jihad'. One senior Sudanese government source, familiar with the previous attempt to kill Bin Laden in Khartoum, said last week: 'They regard him as a sellout. While he concentrates his attention on freeing Saudi Arabia of American bases, the Takfir think that everything in contemporary Muslim society is corrupt and should be destroyed.' A Whitehall source with close knowledge of the Takfir said: 'They do not regard the Taliban as representative of Islam. They do not take kindly to religion being hijacked for political purposes.' Additional reporting: Soheb Panja [ No, this isn't a joke ]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 07:04:08 (EDT) From: Tcheuki Email: None To: All Subject: where?? Message:

the hell are Pam's memoirs now. Can't find them anymore The link jmk put on the french forum does'nt work either..

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:47:53 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Tcheuki Subject: They have gone inactive Message:

You'll have to wait until they are archived on EPO, unless someone thought to copy it and save it. Unfortunately, I just checked and I did not. Hopefully someone will see your plea and repost it. The archives only go to September 8th, at present. So a little patience and you will get them eventually. Francesca

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:03:44 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Can anyone repost it? Message:

I thought I had saved it to a Word .doc but I couldn't find it. Anyone else have it? Start a new thread if you repost it.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:39:33 (EDT) From: tcheuki Email: None To: gerry Subject: thank's for your nice and quickly answersf Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:16:20 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: All Subject: CW please respond Message:

These verbose slanging matches between yourself, Jim, John T, and Pat C are pretty tedious and at times childish. What I would like to hear is your FACTUAL rebuttal of what was said in the letter from PAM or , for instance, the evidence of Michaels Dettmers and Donner. Not more blanket statements but stand up and face the issues Mr Cat. I would have a lot more respect for you then.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 09:12:26 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Tim G Subject: Re: CW please respond Message:

(1) The supposed 'revolt' at Amaroo did not occur.That's pure fabrication (2) The majority of transactions there were Credit card based. What did the mules carry,Amex and Diner card slips? (3) The roles attributed to people were incorrect. Eg The 'organisers', whatever that term means,were actually instructors. It was palaver and it doesn't deserve anything but a slagging. This is not a level playing field.So rather than be drawn into some long drawn out argument, there's three little gems for you to ponder Tim. The rest was just as cocked up and confused. As for the D men? Supposedly their statements are separate to Pam's. But my guess is that when you start telling the Chief Executive how to run the show AND his life , you are likely to end up as popular as a pork chop at a barmitvah.You may even find yourself looking for a new career.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:07:12 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: CW Subject: What a scaredy cat you are! Message:

Don't want to get 'drawn into some long draw out argument'? You seem downright afraid to. That's not the usual attitude of someone with a winning hand to play.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 10:34:12 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: CW Subject: Re: CW please respond Message:

Many thanks for that CW. AT least it was a response to a few issues and ones which I am not competent to quibble with. I also see your point about advisors to the CEO not being popular. BUT what I am interested in is your take on these sort of things: 1. M's belligerent behaviour to those around him...I have seen it first hand (most unpleasant), Tantrums, autocratic, behavior and downright rudeness. 2. M's lack of the practice of K himself 3. M's drinking and womanising 4. M's lack of action on Jagdeo. 5. M's hit and run cover up 6. M's unhappy state of mind and obvious discontent (where is this beautiful world of K? 7. M's inability to successfully run an organisation. 8. M's revisionism; plain lies as to what he had said he was in earlier times and shifting the buck to his poor followers 9. M's grossly extravagant lifestyle and money making activities 10. M's lack of success in 'spreading the Knowledge' despite enormous fund raising avowedly for that exprss purpose. We all coughed up over the years. 11. I could go on and on about my own objections to what he is peddling but they would be personal discriminations, suffice it to say that I don't for one moment accept his inherited belief in the concept of a 'Perfect Master' or even spiritual teacher. In my book he has a lot to learn along with ourselves! So, I would love to hear your responses to some of these issues that I rank in no particular order but are pretty damning in my book. Let's not eneter a slanging match BTW Best Tim

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 21:02:23 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Tim G Subject: Re: CW please respond Message:

Firstly I think it interesting that I told Jim over two years ago that he will catch more flies with honey than vinegar. One of my favorite sayings. But lets look at what you have posed. I think that for a lot of old time premies Knowledge was a religous experience based around a belief structure. For me that has never been the case.The practice of K is the anchor point. The physical act of sitting down and spending time on what is there.No expectations . No interpretations. Because I rejected Religion at an early age I have not expected Maharaji to be some sort of Priest or sage. I simply want to hear from him about K ,that is my link with mim. To date he has served me well in this regard. This list is an old tactic Pat, but for your benefit I will address it from my personal perspective. (1) I have seen the whole spectrum of human emotion from M first hand . So what.To me that is fine. He is relatable (2) I can't comment. I think this is really guesswork on the part of a few people. How could they know unless they actually spent 24 hours in his prescence? (3) I couldn't care less. It's irrelevant.And frankly it's none of my business (4)Says the crew here. I disagree. (5)Dettmers claim? He has quite a few skeletons hanging in his own closet.I think you may find that a coronial report was filed.Do you wish to challenge it? Generally your issues are based on your new belief structure that you have adopted since you began participating here. My tip to you ?Dump belief structures and savour the moments of your life. You never know how much longer you have to enjoy it. The real method used here to catch flies is communal web spinning. And there are anumber of big spiders waiting here to suck you in.I should tell you I generally dont allow myself to fly so low as to be caught in the fine sticky gossamer threads on offer here. Adios

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:58:32 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Tim G Subject: Re: CW please respond Message:

Firstly I think it interesting that I told Jim over two years ago that he will catch more flies with honey than vinegar. One of my favorite sayings. But lets look at what you have posed. I think that for a lot of old time premies Knowledge was a religous experience based around a belief structure. For me that has never been the case.The practice of K is the anchor point. The physical act of sitting down and spending time on what is there.No expectations . No interpretations. Because I rejected Religion at an early age I have not expected Maharaji to be some sort of Priest or sage. I simply want to hear from him about K ,that is my link with mim. To date he has served me well in this regard. This list is an old tactic Pat, but for your benifit I will adress it from my personal perspective. (1) I have seen the whole spectrum of human emotion from M first hand . So what.To me that is fine. He is relatable (2) I cant comment. I think this is relly guesswork on the part of a few people. How could they know unless they actually spent 24 hours in his prescence? (3) I couldn't care less. It's irrelevant.And frankly it's none of my business (4)Says the crew here. I disagree. (5)Dettmers claim? He has quite a few skeletons hanging in his own closet.I think you may find that a coronial report was filed.Do you wish to challenge it? Generally your issues are based on your new belief structure that you have adopted since you began participating here. My type to you ?Dump belief structures and savour the moments of your life. You never know how much longer you have to enjoy it. The real method used here to catch flies is communal web spinning. And there are anumber of big spiders waiting here to suck you in.I should tell you I generally dont allow myself to fly so low as to be caught in the fine sticky gossamer threads on offer here. Adios

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:29:18 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: CW please respond Message:

Hi CW Just got your response but too tired to reply, it's 3.30 a.m. here and I'm just finishing some paintings for a Monday morning deadline. Have printed out your response and will reply soon.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:21:08 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Tim G Subject: Re: CW please respond Message:

Sorry Pat C, you weren't involved in that latest round of catfighting.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:39:05 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Tim G Subject: You're too damn nice, TimG Message:

I also have tried to talk reasonably with the Pussy many a time but had to give up because I could not get a straight answer to just one simple question: ''What is Catweasel doing on the forum since he obviously isn't having much fun being slagged off by us all the time?'' Actually, Tim, I did enter the last round of Pussy-baiting and seem to have upset Pussy as he said, ''Bye, I'm off to greener pastures.'' Honestly I can't stand being a bitch and would much prefer to kiss and make up as I have with SC/David Roupell/Cerise et al but I think that will not be possible with Pussy until he says who he is and why he is here as SC has. But I don't think he has realized that he would be accepted and respected if only he would be straight with us.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:18:07 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: And your all over the place! Message:

Pat, I mean't I had better things to do. Your trite insults are like water off a ducks back.......

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:13:47 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: CW Subject: Water off a duck's back? Message:

You mean ''like an oxpecker on a rhinoceros' arse,'' mate. You have got one goddam thick hide. You must be on a mission. Only a crazed cult fanatic could take the punishment that is handed out to you in the name of Allah the unmentionable You Know Who. Oh, sorry, I forgot: your anonymity is your special protective armor. It makes you invisible and invulnerable. Yes, and, as long as you're an anonymouse, you will be treated as a joke. See, there is no bad karma attached to treating an imaginary person badly. Real people, yes. ''Do unto others...'' means real people not fakes.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:39:00 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Water off a duck's back? Message:

ahhh Pat. Now you justify your sour bigotry.You sound like an Afrikaaner explaining away their prejudiced and jaundiced view of 'the Kaffas' Sorry old man , it does not wash. You know full well you are talking to another human being. Show some manners. Honestly sometimes you behave like Jimmy Cagney at a Beer and Prawn night.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:01:02 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: CW Subject: Anonymity is accepted at AA Message:

Perhaps you belong there not here. As long as you hide deceitfully like a coward behind a weasel mask you are not a real person. If you don't want to post under your real name then email me and tell me who you are. I will verify it with my pals in Oz but won't reveal it here. I know every ex who posts under a handle and two premies whose names I have never revealed. I only out cyberstalking cult apologists.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:24:16 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Anonymity is accepted at AA Message:

Then you have no reason to prey on me. See you

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:55:32 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: CW Subject: Prey on Catweasel? Message:

The cultweasel said: ""Then you have no reason to prey on me."" Now is this person mentally retarded or an alcoholic paranoid? Is this your forum, CW, or an EXPREMIE forum where it has been made painfully clear to you that you are not welcome and that you are the intruder? Prey does not sanely or willingly enter their predator's dens. You one slimey piece of work CACweasel. You are the predator. Expremies are your prey. CAC has got your ugly little paw prints all over it and stinks of that nasty stuff you keep spraying around. You know very well that you are regarded by exes as a predatory cyberstalker and can be seen to be that by anyone with an IQ one size larger than their shoes. If you spent the time meditating instead of creeping around here you would be much better off.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:24:50 (EDT) From: CW Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Prey on Catweasel? Message:

Fantasy land .Welcome to Pat Disney's Fantasy Land . Where he pictures himself as Tinker Belle and he communes with that screechy raspy voiced cannibal cricket 'Jiminy' You are some piece of work. What a crock.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 17:14:03 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Pat: Irish Saying Message:

There's an old saying in these parts: 'You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar'

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:35:34 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Tim G Subject: Tim: Irish Saying - flies? Message:

Yes, but what do you do with those flies afterwards? The only reason to catch flies is to kill them. Now if only we could catch flies and turn them into butterflies....life would be very sweet.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:49:23 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Butterflies? Message:

Nice one Pat I think there are a few butterflies around here that used to be flies. Actually it's the Big Bluebottle that needs swatting (metaphysically of course)

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:47:04 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Tim G Subject: Re: Bluebottles? Message:

...or blue-arsed flies as they're called in S Africa. Yes, Tim, that's the only fly I want to swat. My ''stream of consciousness'' then led me to think ''If only we could put that Genie back in his blue bottle.''

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 19:11:20 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: All Subject: Has Maharaji ever flown commercially? Message:

From a recent EV newsletter:- Keep your ticket with you Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Kaohsiung, 2nd May 2001 All your planning has been that you will get peace when you die, and all of a sudden, you have come to the conclusion that you want it now. It's like this: you are traveling on a plane. You've bought the ticket. You put the ticket in your baggage, and the baggage has gone to the plane. Now, where is the ticket? Wrong planning. This is what I point out to people. I'm not judging anybody, but you have to make a decision in your life. And the decision that you have to make is: what does it mean to you to be alive? Anyone who has flown knows that you cannot put your luggage on the plane without presenting the ticket to the check-in clerk. This is infantilely stupid, and what does it say about EV's staff that they can distribute this to those on the mailing list? Braindead? John.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 21:45:19 (EDT) From: R-J Email: None To: JHB Subject: Wait a minute John, here's how it happend . . . Message:

It seems that one day Margie arrived at the airport in order to fly from L.A. to Denver (to dress down the IHQ honchos - but that's another story). He arrives at the check-in, presents his ticket and puts his luggage on the weighing scale. The check-in clerk informs him that his luggage is overweight and he will either have to take some of his clothes out or pay extra. He decides to pull out his Krishna crown and a few pairs of Gucci loafers to give to John Miller to return to the divine residence. Meanwhile, in his kerfuffle, he absently-mindedly puts his ticket (which he has already been handed back with his assigned seating) into his luggage. Only when he attempts to go through security does he realize his faux pas. But all is not lost because he now has a real-life story to squeeze an important piece of satsang out of. Not a ticket disappears . . .

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 23:41:28 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: R-J Subject: Too Funny Dude |D Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 07:14:06 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: R-J Subject: Hey R-J Message:

Hahaha .....' a real life story to squeeze an important bit of satsang out of it ' ......Lol

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:00:36 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: JHB Subject: Is he a member of the Mile High Club? Message:

Good point, John, but to answer your question, Maharaji met Marolyn, already a premie, on a commercial flight, didn't he?

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:07:21 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Jim Subject: Someone else probably checked him in [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 14:17:33 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Is insensitivity to banality a sin? Message:

Maharaji, like all so-called spiritual masters, trades in banalities and trite commonplace statements. There isn't any real discovery or knowledge being developed but he's got to keep talking because they've got to keep listening. So the 'Been there, Done that' filter (sorry, Vicki) gets set aside. He can repeat himself, parrot others, say nothing but cliche after cliche forever and no one in his cult is going to bat an eyelash. For example, Maharaji's September 15th message: In this hour of need, dear God Grant us your grace, Guide us from darkness to light From confusion to clarity From pain to joy From hate to love. Give us the strength to endure. Give us the courage to go on. Bless us with your kindness. Was there a single premie who dared say how utterly Hallmark this was? Can you imagine if Maharaji only had the floor as part of a group discussion? How long would he keep the mike with so little to say? People who turn off their BTDT filters risk losing their edge humour-wise. In fact, that's why new age humour, if you can call it that, sucks so bad. Anyone ever been exposed to the newage comedian, Swami Bananananda (I think that's his name. I remember him from my days in L.A. going to Whole Life Expos for laughs and to pick up girls). He sucks! The unfunniest guy in the world. But he's playing to an audience that's lowered its standards so far he can do anything, wear a multi-coloured wig, for example, and get all the middle-aged audience rolling in the aisles. Are they sinners? Is he?

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:19:41 (EDT) From: suchabuono Email: buono@gambino.com To: Jim Subject: no,but mislabeling beyondananda as banana is... Message:

btw, here's a lil game: [ http://www.treeloot.com/play/help/popups/bananabucks_shock.html ]

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:27:41 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: suchabuono Subject: LOL -- sorry, Such! Message:

btw, here's a lil game: ---

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 08:17:51 (EDT) From: Patrick Wilson Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Is insensitivity to banality a sin? Message:

In this hour of need, dear God Grant us your grace, Guide us from darkness to light From confusion to clarity From pain to joy From hate to love. Give us the strength to endure. Give us the courage to go on. Bless us with your kindness. From Maharaji's website statement following the Trade Center attacks. Has anyone noticed how much this statement resembles the supplication that we all were required to make in the seventies at some point the Knowledge Session. Again then we had to say almost exactly the same words 'Guide us from darkness to light, from confusion to clarity ' etc but then, instead of 'Dear God' we were instructed to say 'Oh my Guru Maharaji.....' etc. What exactly is he trying to say here and why? It is tempting to think that he may just be attempting to be wanting to be seen to be sorry - maybe he is sorry - maybe he is someone with human feelings such as sympathy. This in itself would endear him further with those who will have looked at his website (mostly premies seeking droppings from the Master). He seems to share the common belief that Man needs to beg God (Him?) for extra help in times of trouble, and I would imagine, unless he has really changed his tune since the seventies, that he hopes (by using some of the old Knowledge vow) to use this opportunity to remind us who exactly it is who can take us 'from darkness to light ' - Gu-Ru. Was there a single premie who dared say how utterly Hallmark this was? I doubt if any premies would admit this, but Maharaji's verse of prayer (which merely amounts to the predictable 'Help God!' in effect) really just tells us that Maharaji is like a preacher - no real sensible practical comment - just a common or garden, safe, religious comment - Yes, exactly like the words in a Christmas Card - thus so Hallmark as you so rightly put it! (Not many people know this, but in broadcasting there is an actual rule that advertisements may allude very vaguely to a God but must not be specific about who he is (Allah, Jesus etc). I came up against this writing choral music for advertising which I thought musiacally needed the words 'Gloria in Excelsis Deo' - The publishers were so sensitive about this that I had to change the words. I ended up getting a rather confused choir to sing 'Gloria in Excelsis Omnes!' which means 'Glory to Everybody in the Highest' - Quite an appropriate expression of my current beliefs I thought) Above all, one is impressed that his comment is 'safe' enough not to upset anyones religious beliefs - it can be 'interpreted favourably' by his target audience - premies, and it provides him with the opportunity to be seen to be saying something publically about this awful tragedy - as anyone famous should of course do - show public concern. This smacks of false sincerity. Clearly we are supposed to think that he is the author of this Great Prayer - emblazoned on his own website as it is, and using well-known trademark 'Maharaji' lingo. No doubt it will rank alongside the Lord's Prayer as a classic for millenia to come. It's like someone slightly famous has such a high opinion of themselves that, after the Trade Center attack, they go around town sticking up posters with their own prayer, arrogantly thinking that it will cast new light on the situation, be of great material benefit to the sufferers, and of course, on the bottom of the poster, they will naturally sign it in bold. Could he be using this event for his own self-publicity? So the point is that Maharaji THINKS HE IS SPECIAL and so anything he writes or says, however banal or unoriginal is also special. He thinks people want to hear from him - that they NEED to - it is an arrogant statement. He maybe even thinks that his prayer is more potent than anyone elses because of his 'special relationship with God' and therefore it needs to be adopted - dutifully mouthed and repeated by others - with respect and acknowledgement - at premie prayer time. Why else would he put it up there? It is largely because everyone around him tells him he is so special that he carries on like this. I think he must confused about how he can make himself acceptible to a broader public. He acts as if, just because he is famous to premies, he's famous to and respected by the general public. In his dreams. He is drunk with self-importance. The fact that he even flatters himself that his wealth is from his own investments etc. and never publically acknowledges that it was given to him by others shows to what extent he has lost touch with reality. None of his admirers dare stand up to him because they 'love' him are too full of respect and accept his faults. They are too busy 'enjoying life' and being grateful about it to see what bad effects their worship is having on the character of their idol. Their insensitivity is not restricted to his banality but unfortunately extends to attributing some virtue to the habit.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:06:43 (EDT) From: Francesca :~) Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: I remember praying to guru and God Message:

Yeah Pat and Jim, Great thread here. I remember, several months before I moved out of the ashram, that I was extremely suicidal, depressed or whatever, but keeping it close to the vest. I would pray every night that I would just die in my sleep, that I would never wake up. And oh, for that, I would pray hard. Life seemed hopeless. Funny but for some of my suicidal phase I was Joy's roomie (a frequent poster here -- though not since she moved back to the UK because it costs more to access the Internet). Imagine what we could have shared if I had been more able to realize what was going on and gell my process enough to speak about it at that point! We were only able to begin to discuss it after she had already moved out. I had written a letter to the Lardo. I got back some sappy Sally Reeder type reply, with a picture of Lardo cradling one of his children very tenderly and gently. (While I was being given the shaft, and Lardo hadn't even seen my letter and could care less.) I was standing in my room, just praying from the depths of wherever in me for God to help me, for my guru to help me. I was praying in that manner that the banal prayer we are discussing invokes -- i.e., that I am a turd in the toilet bowl of life, just a little turd, dust under the Lotus Feet, all of those 'Guru Maharaji you are so big, and I am so smaaaall' emotions. An answer came from the depths of my being somewhere, 'Meditate or die.' It was cut-and-dried. It was not 'love' like we can la la la about. I think that was the seed of realizing that an anthropromorphised superior power was a joke, and that no one and nothing was going to save me. It was all truly inside of me, and I had to catch a grip. Yet in times of disaster like these, some people revert to childish and infantile views of the stuff the universe consists of, and who or what holds the power over outcomes. I hear that Bible sales are up 40-50 per cent, as opposed to 10 percent or so during the Gulf War. I suggest they read Leviticus or Exodus if they want to get a dose of how literally one should read that book. Good one, you guys! Bests, Francesca

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 11:59:22 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo,ie To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Re: Excellent Post Patrick.nt Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:30:26 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: the banality of evil Message:

One of the most unpleasant realisations of my life was when I read up on Nazi Germany before and during the Second World War. Somehow I had expected, well, magnificent monsters (the terrible events are far enough in the past for this confession not to be too damming on myself, I hope). But there were few, very few. Mostly the Nazis were very ordinary, small-minded people, perhaps with particular chips on their shoulders. But ordinary, banal even. It is the banality of evil which has haunted me ever since. The thought that people at work, people who live on my street, that run businesses I have dealings with, ordinary people that I meet every day could have been Nazis if they had lived 60 years ago in Germany. It's disgusting, but I do flag people up in the privacy of my own mind, She'd have gone along with it, I say to myself; He'd have compiled lists for the authorities, put people onto the trains. It seems even extraordinary evils are mostly committed (and allowed) by small-minded, banal and very ordinary people. Sad but true.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:09:45 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: JohnT Subject: GREAT great post JohnT [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 18:45:18 (EDT) From: PatD Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Most of them did go along with it Message:

so trying to decide who would & who wouldn't is a waste of space. We premies went along , willingly , with a messianic follow my leader trip too . We were never asked to take over the world by force , & I like to think that we would have refused had that been the requirement...but who knows . I saw many parallels between Rawatism & Hitlerism back in the heyday but convinced myself that it was LILA in action for my personal benefit in the cosmic scale of things . And in any case the message was love & peace to all mankind . Whatever the similarity in the dynamics of our little world to those of a whole society , love & peace was the bedrock of ours . There was a v . good film made in the early 60's called 'It Happened Here ' . You ever see that ? Anyone know where I can get a copy of it ?

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:01:30 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Is insensitivity to banality a sin? Message:

People who turn off their BTDT filters risk losing their edge humour-wise. In fact, that's why new age humour, if you can call it that, sucks so bad. I don't know, *A Curse in Marigolds' is pretty funny; although it's sort of an inside joke. A little biting edge sarcasm would probably help it though. --Scott

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:40:15 (EDT) From: Barbara Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: What's 'A Curse In Marigolds'? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:16:42 (EDT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Barbara Subject: Re: What's 'A Curse In Marigolds'? Message:

It's a parody of 'A Course in Miracles,' a channeled new age book that's supposed to be some sort of sacred text directly from the mind of Jesus Christ (and probably isn't). 'The Course' as it's called, has a very distinctive style that lends itself to parody.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 20:51:04 (EDT) From: Barbara Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Thanks...it sounds funny,,, [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 16:22:37 (EDT) From: Barbara Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's Swami Beyondananda... Message:

and I remember the dude, and he did suck big time. Much, but not all, humor is somewhat transgressive in nature, thereby limiting someone like Swami Beyondananda who played to a 'sensitive' crowd. Also, the new age crowd would say to you that they've raised their standards, rather than lowered them. Such is the postmodern new age way. Nowadays, at least in my experience, I have to be very careful with whom and to whom I crack a joke. I have a fairly black and sick sense of humor, so I tend to save those type of comments for those who know from whence I come. Also, I think humor is contextual, giving it a certain fluidity, so I find myself replying in a joking manner to something I might not normally find funny. (My older brother cracked a joke at my father's funeral, which started us on an endless laughing binge. The people sitting behind us saw our shoulders shaking and thought we were crying, and it started a wave of crying throughout the church, which only made me and my brother laugh more...and on and on.) Me, I think humor is the philosopher's stone that turns lead into gold. I'd be dead without it. I've watched a couple of videos of M in the last few months (thank you, Mr. Dish), and although the crowd had the giggles and sighs, I heard or saw nothing from M that was remotely funny. Maybe funny in the 'odd' sense.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 04:00:39 (EDT) From: Susannah Email: susimae@yahoo.com To: Barbara Subject: More on Banality... Message:

About 7 or 8 years ago, an old premie friend took me to a 'meeting' where they showed a video of Maharaji flying his airplane and periodically reciting little morsels like, 'just relax and let love flow through you', and 'it's all within you'. After about twenty minutes I was literally squirming in my seat, and I'm not one to get bored very often. I kept waiting for something new, but I should have known --- things hadn't changed much in the 20 years I'd been away from this. When the lights came on, everyone was practically whispering. Apparently they had been very moved by what they had just seen. I suddenly felt like an outsider. I thought, either I'm nuts, or they need to get a life. There were a few light conversations, some asked me if I was a premie. Generally, no one seemed to care one way or the other. I told one woman I was a Christian, and she did not seem to be fazed, but kept on raving about the video and how beautiful Maharaji looked. It was very, very weird, almost had to pinch myself to see if I might be dreaming!

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 11:15:23 (EDT) From: Barbara Email: None To: Susannah Subject: Re: More on Banality... Message:

Susannah: Like you, I've had a few of those 'either I'm nuts, or these guys have blinders on their eyes the size of plantation shutters.' I got in early and got out early (72-81 or so), but it took years of therapy and thinking I was going to come back as a cockroach 64,000 times before I was able to rid myself of the niggling doubt, 'what if I'm wrong,' to finally disappear. What it looked like to me was an adult version of a teen crush with all the attendant fantasies and just as many empty calories. If only George (or John, Paul, Ringo, or Herman Hesse even if he is dead) would marry me, I'd be saved etc. God was at the bottom of an extensive list of possible saviors, and after that well ran dry, I was left with having to 'save' myself, which has less to do with the act of saving and more to do with giving up the search for it. Now I'm wondering if the banality of evil is equivalent to the evil of banality...

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 07:00:49 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Susannah Subject: That's all it offers, Susannah Message:

Total cult devotion to a personality .....drooling over his image while hanging on to his every banal 'spiritual' utterance. ......I must be a real chump for hanging in so long. You must have joined early and left early, yeah? Cheers Dermot

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:56:57 (EDT) From: Susannah Email: susimae@yahoo.com To: Dermot Subject: Re: That's all it offers, Susannah Message:

Yes, I got in in 1973 and out in about 1976. A mere three years! Since I was always basically a Christian at heart, I never did believe in reincarnation or worried about the repurcussions of leaving. I could never buy the 'Lord of the Universe'. Initially, I saw Maharaji as a teacher, not the Lord God. When I saw people worshipping him, it seemed more than silly, something about it just made me a little sick. Fool that I was, I stuck with it for as long as I did, trying to give the thing a fair chance. In the end, it wasn't my cup of tea. It helps if you can laugh a bit about your youthful folly. But I know that for some that is not possible. I think it is much harder for those who completely bought into the world view of DLM, the concept of Marharji as 'Lord', and the religious background of Maharaji and family.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 07:18:24 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Susannah Subject: Re: That's all it offers, Susannah Message:

Hi Susannah I got K in 73 too .....maybe I should have got out in 72 :) Best Regards Dermot

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:23:11 (EDT) From: Susannah Email: susimae@yahoo.com To: Dermot Subject: Keep a Light Heart, Dermot Message:

Keep a light heart, Dermot (love that name!). Salvation doesn't come from the hands of oily salesmen, and you know it. I mentioned this in a thread somewhere way back, but did you notice that the premies of the 1970's were almost all cut out of the same cloth? Young. White. Middle class. I lived in Detroit at the time, a city with about (at that time) over 50% black Americans living in it. Yet I never ONCE met a black premie in that city. And I met VERY FEW people over the age of 35. I am sure this is not a unique suspicion, but it looks as though we were a 'target'. We had the perfect qualities to start a Guru Maharaji revolution: young and impressionable, naive, searching, rejecting of parental values, lots of time on our hands, some disposable income, and fresh out of mind altering drugs. Everybody else was either too smart, or too busy with survival, to be interested in the Guru. I am sorry to have to say this, but it is an unfortunate fact. Counterfeit prophets and Gurus, whether of the Hindu or of the Christian persuasion, have little interest in the poor. They have nothing to offer in support of the lavish lifestyles and supposed 'ministries' of such individuals.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 08:15:24 (EDT) From: gabfest Email: None To: All Subject: beliefs Message:

a quick note re an article that I read in the Spectator a couple of weeks ago. Matthew Parris said that beliefa are dangerous because the purveyors of the beliefs invariably tell you that your reward will comein the future in another time and place so that is why you must believe now and do whatever they tell you to do now. This means that your present, real, actual life becomes devalued leading even to the extremes of murder and suicide. Whereas if you recognise that what you have now is all there is and you refrain from believing unprovable assertions, your present actual life becomes more valuable and precious leading to a desire to preserve your life and not risk it which in turn leads to a greater liklihood of peace on earth. He explained it more convincingly but I am sure you get the drift. Bye

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:58:11 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: gabfest Subject: Belief in Paradise is a recipe for hell on earth Message:

Matthew Parris is a wonderfully warm man and a witty and sensitive writer of considerable intelligence. Beats me how he manages to write for a bunch of right wing rags, but anyway, here's a link to the piece Tim G mentioned. Remember -- Godlessness is a humanising force. [ Belief in Paradise is a recipe for hell on earth ]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 23:31:04 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: JohnT Subject: Thanks, JohnT.. Message:

I believe that the here and now is good, and worth working to improve; that human suffering is bad, and worth seeking to mitigate; and that life and peace, beauty and plenty, are to be sought as ends in themselves, for ourselves and for those who succeed us. I believe this world and its future matters, matters completely, matters more than anything. I believe this world is real. I know of no other. You can see why MP never lasted long as a conservative MP, can't you? I liked the above paragraph but noted, too, the applehood-and-mother-pie vagueness that suggested no practical approach to the mitigation of human suffering here below. But even so, stirring stuff for The Spectator, of all papers, where the pursuit of 'life, peace, beauty and plenty' more usually refers to the rights of the complacent post-Thatcherite noveau-riche to live peacefully in their country estates surrounded by plenty of beautiful things, no? But very good article, and - good grief - even namechecks for Dawkins and The Guardian too..

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 08:54:28 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: gabfest Subject: Re: beliefs Message:

Hi Gabfest Thanks for that. I couldn't agree more with you and Matthew Parris. I found this quote on the KFA website (http://www.kfa.org/teaching.htm) from J Krishnamurti..it seems incredibly relevent at the moment: What causes war - religious, political or economic? Obviously belief, either in nationalism, in an ideology, or in a particular dogma. If we had no belief but goodwill, love and consideration between us, then there would be no wars. But we are fed on beliefs, ideas and dogmas and therefore we breed discontent. The present crisis is of an exceptional nature and we as human beings must either pursue the path of constant conflict and continuous wars, which are the result of our everyday action, or else see the causes of war and turn our back upon them. 'Obviously what causes war is the desire for power, position, prestige, money; also the disease called nationalism, the worship of a flag; and the disease of organized religion, the worship of a dogma. All these are the causes of war; if you as an individual belong to any of the organized religions, if you are greedy for power, if you are envious, you are bound to produce a society which will result in destruction. So again it depends upon you and not on the leaders - not on so-called statesmen and all the rest of them. It depends upon you and me but we do not seem to realize that. If once we really felt the responsibility of our own actions, how quickly we could bring to an end all these wars, this appalling misery! Now that to me makes plain common sense however challenging. Let's put away our Gods and Godesses and take a look at ourselves

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 05:45:55 (EDT) From: Mr. Dooley Email: None To: All Subject: This need to trust (and be victimized) Message:

Sales of U.S. flags are way up. Sales of the bible are way up. It seems that in times of uncertainty we humans have a need to believe in some source outside of ourselves to help us because we feel helpless. In our adolescense and early 20's, patriotism and conventional God were no no's for most of us. Growing up in uncertain times and having ingested uncertain substances, we were primed for this Rawat guy to come along with his version of The Practical Solution. Family and friends who were able to see that Rawat was a fraud said(hoped)that it was just a fad. For many of us, this turned out to be a 20-30 year fad because the deeper you get in the more difficult to get out. Does this sound like drug addiction?

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 06:39:34 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@eircom.net To: Mr. Dooley Subject: Re'The practical Solution'be victimized) Message:

Hi Mr D 'The practical Solution' my arse. It robbed so many of us of our discrimination and even still leaves it's resonances.. I find this waving of little flags a terribly sad phenomenon. The sight of Mr Bush twiddling one in his hand when addressing the nation was particularily poignant..as if to say we have learnt nothing in the last 6000 years. The figures we are focusing on, or are focusing on us, are little men. Osama bin Laden, Maharaji and Bush seem to be people who are trying to prove something to their fathers, trying to win their approval, but why should the world fall victim to their neuroses? The answer is that we don't need to on a personal level. It seems to me to be a time to be very accurate and positive (if that's not contradictory.) I can faintly hear some howls that say 'those three characters are not of the same calibre'. I agree, but the father fetish is common. So I, for one, want to avoid anyone or thing that offers a solution because that's what we fell for the last time. To be identified with a flag or ideal or system or philosophy immediately sets up conflict. To be nationalistic precludes brotherhood. The only brotherhood worth having is not Muslim, Christian, Jewish, capitalist, communistor any other -ist. It's just plain brotherhood. Death to Dogamatism (but not as an ideal)

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:25:13 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Tim G Subject: The Father Fetish Message:

Hi Tim, You said: I can faintly hear some howls that say 'those three characters are not of the same calibre'. I agree, but the father fetish is common. I agree and this speaks to the father fetish in the cult. I was a prime target re: the father fetish. Prime. Because I craved paternal love I easily integrated into the cult. As bad a drug addiction? Worse, IMO. With drug addiction one can recover without facing a spiritual crisis. This has been the worst exit piece for me. Maharaji lied and lied and lied. I am annoyed by the Americans waving flags. Flags stuck to and waving all over their cars and trucks (and right now the guns are in the gun racks for huntin' season). I have also read that the separation of church and state is also becoming relaxed in schools in America due to the attack. I understand the need for people to look to ''GOD'' for comfort, I just think they are big time deluded. I don't think I'm being cynical, I just think that I've learned a bit from being a true-believing cult member for 25 years, and leaving. Best, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 19:48:42 (EDT) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Cynthia Subject: Re: The Father Fetish Message:

Hi Cynthia Greetings to you in the big world out there. How we need 'God' in times like this and how poisonous that can be. It seems that the need arises because we can't bear to look at the facts...we want to run away into the arms of whatever might offer comfort or explanation. I feel that need too but like you I can see the danger. To turn around and face the situation and thus ourselves with all our baggage and misery is the one thing that we avoid. Yet in doing that there is the possibility of clarity, understanding and all the good qualities of life . Starting where we stand and keeping things simple. Too many 'we's' there which means I'm preaching again..a hangover from the cult. Mistrust 'we's'. I find this time really testing and am seeing that I live in the world that I create. I can be as happy or as sad as I want to be. Life is short and there is a neurosis abroad. I'm determined not to catch the virus (war fever and paranoia) Best to you Tim

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:03:35 (EDT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: All Subject: CAC And Recent Exes Forum Message:

Does the Recent Exes Forum predate the CAC fiasco? If not, then maybe some people are afraid to be public with CAC-like repercussions possible. In my case, the CAC affair shook me up quite a bit. It is pro-Maharaji terrorism, isn't it? Anybody else shaken up by CAC or is it just me? Steve

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:00:50 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: 'Terrorism' is a bit strong Message:

Steve, RE did predate CAC although I wouldn't be surprised if more people took an interest in it because of CAC. Without saying more, I do want to say that if I owned stock in CAC this would be a good time to sell. Don't ask!

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 14:46:51 (EDT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: deeply offended and hurt Message:

Although I had no right to expect a mention, of course, compared to those illustrious and noble lovers of truth who were targeted. JohnT - never a premie

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 04:25:01 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Stuff and nonsense Message:

I didn't mind being portrayed as a mentally deranged pervert who is in the adult entertainment business - all of that is true. What appalled me was that my young daughter was put on the CAC site. I therefore abandoned all of my ex-premie web sites. There are others who can do that job. Now I just stick to humour and nonsense. I advise other people to partake in such therapy. .. Dave

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:29:15 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Of course CAC scared me, Steve Message:

My blood pressure shot through the roof and I had terrible tension headaches and ugly negative paranoid thoughts. Because my business address and phone number were published, my business was the target of a few harmless but costly hoaxes as well as three anonymous very damaging criticisms on a local public website about restaurants. But I've been bullied all my life. From the age of six, bullies waited outside the school gates to beat me up every afternoon. I was very small and effeminate for my age. After many broken teeth, cut lips and black-eyes I took up boxing for which I won a cup when I was ten. The bullies were always taken by surprise when this little sissy gave them worse than they got. After a while your reputation protects you and you don't have to resort to force. If you have a reputation for being fearless, only strangers or people who do not understand you will pick on you. Of course, nowadays I believe that the pen is mightier than the boxing glove.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:12:35 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: CAC shook me up too Message:

Dear Steve, CAC shook me up too. I was shook up enough that I swore I would no longer post on public ex-premie Forums. I just have too big a mouth to stay quiet for too long. I would lurk and nibble and jumped right back in. I'm not sure how long RE has been around, but it's been around WAY before CAC. There are all sorts of reasons for fear -- as many as we can each make up, I'm afraid. Rest assured you were not alone in being afraid. The CAC victims made me braver. They didn't go running off. They're still here, for the most part. Bests, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:33:14 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Francesca Subject: Only female CAC victim Message:

CAC should be an extreme source of concern. I am the only woman named on the CAC site. Most of the people named on the CAC site engaged premies in debate. I did this rarely. The only people I really fought with were Catweasel when s/he first arrived and Bjorn, because he cyberstalks Abi. I was also very critical of Valerio Pascotto and his role in dealing with Abi. I also continue to believe that Elan Vital and Maharaji are just as dangerous as Jim Jones and Peoples Temple. Perhaps those scary ideas have earned me a place on the CAC site. The CAC site was designed to intimidate and silence the critics of Maharaji and Elan Vital. I am not afraid of the CAC authors, and their identities will not remain secret for long. My career is devoted to unmasking the identities of those who abused my clients decades ago. It has been very easy to unmask you. I spend each day fighting to save lives. Your actions against me are quite the opposite. You will be exposed and I will defend my professional reputation, at all your expense. You really don't want to tussle with a death penalty lawyer, but unfortunately you did. I have friends and litigation assets in places you never anticipated. Ask Morgan Chu. Marianne

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:14:36 (EDT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Marianne Subject: I understand, Marianne... Message:

I mean, I couldn't imagine Maharaji going to the extremes of mass suicides or anything like that (well, I hope not anyway!..nah,no way), nevertheless It wouldn't surprise in the least that through your in-depth knowledge of the PT you saw many similarities with Maharjis organisation. I'm pretty sure that similarities would be found in a lot more cults too. The name of the game in all the top to bottom cults of personality is 'control'. Control of people, ideas, information and of course finance. Hope everything is hunky dory with ya... Best Wishes Dermot...

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:18:12 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Marianne Subject: You go! Marianne Message:

Maybe only one woman BUT that woman is a very powerful woman. Hee hee, CAC made a BIG mistake. Seriously, Marianne, it surprised the heck out of me when I clicked to that page and saw your name there. They knew who you were and your credentials. What were they thinking? ())boggles the mind Lots of love to you, and congradulations on your progress

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:07:02 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Go Marianne! Message:

First, the RE site has been running (continuously, I believe) for at least a couple of years. I posted there for a short time a long while ago. However, when I posted there I found that the subject matter were personal life issues and circumstances that would be difficult to expose here. Second, the CAC site infuriated me because it was so offensive, full of lies, not to mention the invasion of the privacy of private citizens and Sir Dave's child. I felt a lot of evil from CAC and that lawyer from NY. I've been reading Raven, a book about Jim Jones and The Peoples Temple. I am stunned by the parallels between the Jones cult and the Maharajism cult. Stunned and shocked. Part of the mindf**k of the Maharajism cult was the universal explanation as to why we premies were not in a cult. It was because we ''knew'' rather than believed. We had knowledge. 'K' One thing that stands out for me about the Jones/Maharajism similarities (the part of the book I'm now reading) is that Jones's ''inner circle,'' is almost identicle to PAMs and X-Rated premies. Also, the megalomania and temperment of Jones is similar to Maharaji. I could go on and on, but I won't. CAC picked out Marianne to be ''exposed'' on the CAC site, the only woman, and only person here who has direct experience with the aftermath of a cult mass murder. To single her out was outrageously stupid IMO.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:38:00 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Cynthia Subject: Peoples Temple, EV and CAC Message:

Thanks for your kind words Cynthia and Deborah too. I am glad that you are reading Raven, Cynthia, and seeing the amazing similarities between PT and DLM/EV. In fact, the attacks made on the ex-premies on the CAC site are a page right out of the Jim Jones/Peoples Temple playbook. I am sure you have read about how those around Jim Jones engaged in identical behavior in order to discredit people who had left PT and were making public their criticisms of Jones, the hierarchy and the church. The premie posts we see blaming Dettmers and Donner for things that Maharaji did and/or encouraged mirrors exactly what Peoples Temple did for the few higher echelon folks who left the church. I predicted that EV would do this to Dettmers and I was right. You see, when I left DLM in 1976, I did not go bitterly. It was hard, because I left the premie house where I lived with people I loved (and am still close to today). I was disillusioned with Maharaji over the money issue and the fact that DLM abandoned its commitment to social change. But many people I knew and loved remained involved, and I wanted to maintain those friendships. I decided that DLM and Maharaji were not for me and that was it. When I left, the whole thing seemed rather benign. I did not give it much thought once I had moved on to other things in my life, and had worked through the painful process of leaving the community. I only began to reconsider my assessment of DLM and Maharaji when I became one of the lawyers appointed to defend Larry Layton, the former Peoples Temple member who was charged in federal court in San Francisco with conspiring to murder Congressman Leo Ryan at the airstrip outside Jonestown right before the mass suicide occurred. One of my jobs was to read all of the documents that were seized at Jonestown. These documents were a history of Peoples Temple since its inception in the middle 1950's in Indianapolis, all the way to its end in the Guyanese jungle in November, 1978. There were also thousands of hours of audio tapes made in Jonestown. Jones would get drunk and eat downers and get on the loudspeakers as people were trying to get a few hours of sleep before another sweltering day in the fields, and he would rant and rave and talk about himself, people who were there, and also the PT enemies back in the states -- people who had left the church and were trying to 'bring Jones down'. I also spent many hours interviewing people who had left the cult early on, people who escaped into the jungle the night of the mass suicide (only a few), and people who were still living in the PT community in San Francisco when the mass suicide happened in Guyana. Most chilling of all though, was listening to the Last Hour Tape, the tape made while the cyanide was handed out in Jonestown. People got up to encourage each other in their act of 'revolutionary suicide'. One woman, Christine Miller, got up and tried to talk people out of suicide. She was shouted down by many voices. I will always remember her words, 'As long as there's life, there's hope.' The point of all of this is that I never had an ax to grind against Maharaji. I sorted out my confusion and emotional difficulties at putting behind this part of my life and went forward. But when I read about how those at the top kept damning information from those at the bottom, how those at the top jockeyed for position and favor with Jones and would do anything to maintain their position, and how Jones demanded unquestioning adoration from his followers, I then began to rethink my assessment of DLM and Maharaji. These behaviors were identical to what I had experienced in DLM. I also wondered what I would have done if I'd been asked to commit suicide for Maharaji. Those of us who received knowledge in the '70's recall that the mahatmas often insisted that an aspirant promise that s/he would cut off an arm if asked to do so by Maharaji. Suddenly, DLM no longer seemed benign. When my involvement with the Layton trials ended in 1986, I put this issue behind me again until I found EPO in 1999. I did not develop this theory about the similarities between DLM/EV in order to make posts on the forum. I had recognized the connections years ago. I've never said that I thought Maharaji would encourage an act of mass suicide. But I do believe that the way the operation is run, from top to bottom, from the time Maharaji got to the west and til today, is strikingly similar to Peoples Temple. This seems especially true with respect to those around Maharaji. One ought to wonder about the consequences of such similarities, especially the need to demonize the critics. And if you're a PAM reading this, and you find yourself being furious with this post, well think long and hard about how your actions in covering up the truth about Maharaji and his cult are responsible for diverting the lives of countless others. Marianne

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:35:11 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Absolutely ''BEST OF'' Message:

You said: ''I've never said that I thought Maharaji would encourage an act of mass suicide.'' I don't think anyone thinks he would do that but the behavior of those closest to him such his lawyers, spin doctors and other operatives (e.g. their manipulation of Abi and the rewriting of history on the cult websites) often seem unethical and conspiratorial. The CAC attack on exes and the implied threats and intimidation tactics employed by anonymous cult cyberstalkers on this forum are revoltingly sociopathic enough to damn this cult in the eyes of any decent human beings. You also said: ''...the mahatmas often insisted that an aspirant promise that s/he would cut off an arm if asked to do so by Maharaji...'' Arm? My mahatma said ''head!''

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:47:19 (EDT) From: Francesca ~) Email: None To: Marianne Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM!!!*** Message:

Dear Marianne, You truly need to edit your Journey on EPO and add this stuff! Also, I remember Mahatmas and premies saying 'would you cut off your head for Maharaji?' Pretty stupid, huh, in retrospect. How the flak can you cut off your own head, unless they give you a little guillotine or something?? If any PAM is reading this thread, definitely think about the facts you know concerning what Maharaji is really like. Then think about all the times you've lied and denied those facts or told them in a 'toned down' manner to cover 'his' fanny. (Or your own.) Then think about what your family and friends that are not premies would think of you and the trip you have dedicated so much to if they knew what you know about your 'master.' Master of deceit, that's what he is. Francesca

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:23:24 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: That's what I said Message:

Hi Cynthia, I basically said the same thing. Only you said more. I shall have to look for that book. Picking Marianne to 'expose'. ())boggles the mind

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 10:19:05 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Raven Message:

Hi Deborah, Raven wasn't the easiest book to find. My librarian couldn't locate it through the extensive intra-library loan system. I discovered it is still a book in demand, but out of print. I found it through half.com which gave me various websites/prices, all under $20. I ended up with a brand new library bound edition, which now has margins filled with my notes. It's definitely not easy reading, but worth it. Absolutely stunning, chilling, with more similarities to Maharaji's cult than I could ever have imagined. The authors, Tim Reiterman and John Jacobs, stated in their Preface and Acknowledgements that ''The narrative that follows is a work of fact.'' Other books were written hastily after the Jonestown tragedy, and a watered down four hour made-for-tv docu-drama was produced and aired many times. These hastily written books and movies don't hold a candle to Raven,, i.e., facts were omitted about much of Jones's deviant personality traits and behavior, as well as the struggle of many to escape his clutches. And there was the ''inner circle,'' a group of people who did anything Jones wanted them to do. The authors said they applied the two source rule. When they couldn't find two sources, the facts written were then confirmed by Temple documentation. Again, while it is an excellent book and I recommend it, Raven it's not the easiest read. However, now that I've gotten past the first third of the book, I can't put it down. Best, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:21:15 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: ^^^^My post^^^sorry... [nt] Message:

[nt]

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