Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Oct 21, 2001 To: Oct 29, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Jim -:- Jossie Fresco speaks out! -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:07:18 (EDT)
__ Artie and Camilla -:- What the critics said... -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 04:43:53 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Jezuz-wuz that ever funny -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 22:46:19 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- I can't stop laughing...wonderful!! -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 14:32:56 (EDT)
__ __ berni -:- Re: What the critics said...LOL :) -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 14:08:07 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Ranks up there with the Gallant Gallstone -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 13:47:03 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- I couldn't resist -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 11:48:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- BTW, I didn't write it -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 12:28:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nige'n'Moley -:- (Artie and Camilla) [nt] -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 13:30:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- dose couplets runneth over! LOL!! haha! -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 21:03:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- I guessed that it was you two!! [nt] -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 17:04:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I should have guessed! [nt] -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 13:48:48 (EDT)
__ Inside Edition -:- Jossie is M's Webmaster! (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:19:57 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- The very web he dissed a few yrs ago [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:45:56 (EDT)
__ such -:- rugu.lard [a lil poem]: -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:06:49 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca ~) -:- You've paid your la-dues -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 00:28:22 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- haha Such...funny [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:54:34 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Such, that was bEAutiful !!! LOL [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:46:11 (EDT)

a little news -:- about the master -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:18:41 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Show me the money :D -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:58:05 (EDT)
__ __ PatD -:- The brassneck of the guy -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 21:31:19 (EDT)
__ Inside Edition -:- It's the Incredible Shrinking Cult! (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:21:27 (EDT)
__ Carla -:- Base of Believers?? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:24:00 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Don't give M ideas! -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:32:28 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Low Attendance????LOL! -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:30:42 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Hehe ,what's new? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:15:20 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave }( -:- He's in competition with Sainsbury's -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:55:15 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- I shop at Sainsbury's,Dave -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:18:44 (EDT)

Channeling 'Pam' (repost) -:- My memoirs -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:46:26 (EDT)
__ Zorro -:- how many more times ?? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 06:23:04 (EDT)
__ __ Keep printing 'Pam'! -:- Who knows? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:08:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ PatD -:- Maybe it is true.... -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 20:20:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ tcheuki -:- Re: Maybe it is true.... -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 15:03:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ zorro -:- Re: Maybe it is true.... -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 06:02:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ tcheuki -:- Re: oops.... -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 07:16:01 (EDT)

New Premie -:- can you help me? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:48:28 (EDT)
__ Suzanne -:- Read all about him on EPO -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:20:15 (EDT)
__ janet -:- only you can help you -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 07:53:05 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Superior power in person..didn't you know? [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 07:38:14 (EDT)
__ Zorro -:- Re: can you help me? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 06:21:21 (EDT)
__ Old Premie -:- Yes. -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:20:45 (EDT)
__ Old Premie -:- Yes. -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:40:39 (EDT)
__ jethro -:- didn't you mean 'new pwk'NT -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:45:16 (EDT)
__ Got a life -:- Get a life, 'new premie' [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:43:44 (EDT)
__ an old ex -:- Re: can you help me? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:20:41 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Trolling for exes. -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:35:19 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca ~) -:- LOLs ()) [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:05:43 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- check it out: facts vs. fiction -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:26:15 (EDT)
__ SC -:- Go directly to Lifesgreat - do not ... -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:43:39 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Don't get too cozy, SC/David/Cerise -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:57:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ SC -:- My coziness is already assured Pat -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 05:27:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'note for note harmonising [sic]'? -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 18:44:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Yes, very different than sweeping bend harmonies -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 23:56:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Roll over Vaughan Williams -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 17:29:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Counterpoint Nige, Counterpoint -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 23:26:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Arpeggios' -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:25:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Sure, did up the dirt, David -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 13:51:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Forget it -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 11:51:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Sorry Abi -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 03:13:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Glad to hear it [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 21:35:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, David -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 11:38:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Well done, DavidR -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 04:12:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Hope so, yea Pat -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 00:01:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- And I am going to try to stop any... -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:38:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Me no spin doctor unothat -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 06:06:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Spinning -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 15:19:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Yo SC -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 07:48:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Yup, I remember! -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:33:36 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- To start I would suggest that you... -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:07:42 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Why don't you say more about yourself, first -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:05:18 (EDT)
__ Tim G -:- Re: can you help me? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:03:07 (EDT)

JHB -:- Pam's Memoirs reposted -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:02:07 (EDT)
__ got a life -:- Re: Pam's Memoirs reposted -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:53:08 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Second half -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:05:32 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Sorry about lack of formatting -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:07:23 (EDT)

salam -:- At least the FA is vigelant -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:42:21 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- I've sold out -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:09:45 (EDT)
__ __ barney (puppet of eDrek) -:- where's my 10%, gerry? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 23:13:42 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: I've sold out -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:16:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ such -:- I'm vegeland, too [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 14:06:14 (EDT)

Jim -:- So what? Now religion's taboo too? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:40:22 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:06:29 (EDT)
__ __ Loaf -:- Hurrah for Gerry ! -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 23:30:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Baby enema ceremonies? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:57:25 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:18:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 17:23:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- What do I think? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:38:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: What do I think? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:00:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- It's more like ad hic (sic) -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 21:05:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: It's more like ad hic (sic) -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:18:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- bin Laden a liberal wet! -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:34:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- PS -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:38:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You need IE to read locked threads -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:12:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Tell you what -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:45:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Just like the Onion ~) [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:23:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- 'Excessively liberal' LOL [nt] -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:52:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Posted at Anything Goes Too [nt] -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:22:18 (EDT)

Jim -:- Funnier than fiction -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 12:57:29 (EDT)

Tcheuki -:- where?? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 07:04:08 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- They have gone inactive -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:47:53 (EDT)
__ __ gerry -:- Can anyone repost it? -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:03:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ tcheuki -:- thank's for your nice and quickly answersf -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:39:33 (EDT)

Tim G -:- CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:16:20 (EDT)
__ CW -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 09:12:26 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- What a scaredy cat you are! -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:07:12 (EDT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 10:34:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 21:02:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:58:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:29:18 (EDT)
__ Tim G -:- Re: CW please respond -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:21:08 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- You're too damn nice, TimG -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:39:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- And your all over the place! -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:18:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Water off a duck's back? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:13:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Water off a duck's back? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:39:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Anonymity is accepted at AA -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:01:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- You tarkin' ta me Archdeacon? -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:03:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You tarkin' ta me? No to CW -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:51:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Na, CW is a bit more stable than me -:- Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 03:49:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Anonymity is accepted at AA -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:24:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Prey on Catweasel? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:55:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Prey on Catweasel? -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:24:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Prey on Catweasel? -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 01:26:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Cultweasel says it's too boring -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 03:54:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Cultweasel says it's too boring -:- Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 06:37:00 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:07:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Jossie Fresco speaks out!
Message:
I'm not sure who this guy is but I hear he's a PAM of sorts. He was one of the guys who started ELK, I know that. Here are some fresh 'Expressions' of his:

Without doubt

Without doubt
Proud of knowing you

Strong in commitment
To win

Ready to play
Your game

Strong and flexible
Aware and alert
Fulfilled in knowing
Heart joyous

That is how I want to live
This life
Forever

Wasn't that beautiful? Maybe Al Quedah could pick this one up for a morning prayer to bin Laden or something. 'Play to win' guys!

All say

All say there is separation.
I know we are one.

All say argue, debate!
I know
to be silent.

No wonder ELK never quite 'mastered the technology' to put up a forum like they originally promised PWK's.

All say achieve, conquer!
I know
I have it all.

What happened with being strong and winning and all that?

All say be pratical, be real!
I know I am.

In our secret of secrets,
We laugh.

Jossi Fresco
California, USA

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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 04:43:53 (EDT)
From: Artie and Camilla
Email: farty@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: What the critics said...
Message:
Artie Snipes:

For me, Fresco’s slim volume reveals to us and illuminates a whole new way of approaching lyrical form. What greats of the past have often achieved through sweat, imagination and metaphorical dazzle, Fresco, ever the twenty-first century stylist, transcends, and indeed, puts to shame with his banalite nouveau. Wouldn’t you say, Camilla?

Camilla Proust-Nugent

Yes, and surely it is in the very gaps, the spaces, Barthes' aporias, that we find the existential angst of the post-modern subject so brilliantly exposed..

Artie :

Er, yah – it is in what Fresco doesn’t say that he somehow says it all, no..? The commonplace becomes not so common.. The ‘crap’ of yesteryear becomes the manure whence springs the radical and dangerous fruits of tomorrow. What might have once passed for ‘bloody awful’, under Fresco’s masterful lens becomes magnified, inverted, glorious. His deceptively simple verse-forms while running the whole gamut of emotion from A to B, seem to make a damning, caustic and ironic statement on our value systems…on our notions of art and beauty…somehow saying a pox on all your houses…

Camilla:

Oh yes, and surely in:

Strong in commitment
To win

we find the restatement of male domination subtly used to subvert the very notion of the so-called ‘gender-divide’. Again we see the ‘divide’ becoming a ‘gap’ into which slides the carnivalesque underbelly of the patriarchal Law…

Artie:

Well, yes, perhaps – no, you’re right, of course – but, for me, it’s when you take a stanza like:

Strong and flexible
Aware and alert
Fulfilled in knowing
Heart joyous

On the face of it, so trite, so empty, but don’t you think there is something powerful in the way he doesn’t go for the obvious ‘joyous heart’, but instead chooses ‘heart joyous’. So transparently pretentious and affected this can only be irony at its most subtle….?

Camilla:

Oh, yes, and surely the denial of metaphor, the complete lack of lyricism, the deliberate fracturing of the iambic pentameter into lines of half length, then subverting this structure with ‘Heart joyous’ – truly mind-numbing in the deconstructed sense – we are all numb-minded in the face of the Kantian void – the unbridgeable gap between the transcendental and the empirical subject, so brilliantly exposed by Zizek, and condensed, here, in this ‘petite-pois’, succinct, anti-formalist, even trite (in the post-modern sense) linguistic structures, The sign and signified are dislocated in a dazzling display of mocking ….

Artie:

Ahem…! Er, thank-you Camilla, and we’ll be maybe returning to Jossie Fresco later in the series. And now it’s time for our round-up of the week’s theatrical activities…’

[off-mike: what the fucking hell are you on, woman? Have you got any..?

Camilla: ‘Piss off, you little jumped-up squirt…]

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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 22:46:19 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Artie and Camilla
Subject: Jezuz-wuz that ever funny
Message:
You guys are brilliantly crazy. Aww, so hope to hear more posts from you. Soon? There's lots of material here and we could use more comic relief.

Thanks for the side splitter

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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 14:32:56 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Artie and Camilla
Subject: I can't stop laughing...wonderful!!
Message:
Thanks so much for that. It made my day.
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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 14:08:07 (EDT)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Artie and Camilla
Subject: Re: What the critics said...LOL :)
Message:
I especially like
The ‘crap’ of yesteryear becomes the manure whence springs the radical and dangerous fruits of tomorrow
but it's all good - if that's sarcasm give me more.
thanks for the late night review.
berni
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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 13:47:03 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Artie and Camilla
Subject: Ranks up there with the Gallant Gallstone
Message:
My heartfelt thanks Camilla and Artie for finally showing us exactly where the strengths of these poets lies - in their post-modernist minimalism. - Ellsworth P Toohey
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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 11:48:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Artie and Camilla
Subject: I couldn't resist
Message:
I sent a copy of this to ELK (from the EPO Literary Review).
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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 12:28:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: BTW, I didn't write it
Message:
If I had to bet it was either Nigel or Chris Dickey. Hm.......
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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 13:30:29 (EDT)
From: Nige'n'Moley
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: (Artie and Camilla) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 21:03:34 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Nige'n'Moley
Subject: dose couplets runneth over! LOL!! haha!
Message:
er, maybe dey jes got run over by yer literary car, ma!

'full of mirth' -- Jeff Chaucer, da Times

'insightful, big laughs' -- Ben Johnson, da Guardian

'insensitive and cruel to animals' -- Archibald McLeash, RSPCA

'twas brillig' -- da lil swami, EPO Quarterly

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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 17:04:40 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Nige'n'Moley
Subject: I guessed that it was you two!! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 13:48:48 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Nige'n'Moley
Subject: I should have guessed! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:19:57 (EDT)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jossie is M's Webmaster! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:45:56 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: The very web he dissed a few yrs ago [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:06:49 (EDT)
From: such
Email: banana@enjoyinglarf.com
To: Jim
Subject: rugu.lard [a lil poem]:
Message:
rugu.lard [a lil poem]:

lapdogs bark caca ladu
give your soul to ratrugu

strong in delusion
cult lobotomized confusion

pups growl - be silent about rapes
call it the exes' sour grapes

ready to play
lard's capricious games

muzzled on leashes
hypnotized by trite speeches

grovel and lick massa's feet
like some kind of canine treat

eat divine ladus
from gold toilet seat

make endless donations
mansions, jets, yachts, vacations

subhumanized mutts
serve at the whim

hosed by unholy colours
of that fallen guru jism

we cry for those gassed
(in our heart of hearts)
destroyed by the blast
of that lard's brainfarts

- Al Fresco
Surfin, USA

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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 00:28:22 (EDT)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: such
Subject: You've paid your la-dues
Message:
That I can tell!

And in my heart I heard the master say: 'iDNnySdA' [I do not know you so don't ask] and 'EiyDHiwGAS' [even in your darkest hour I won't give a shit]

Yeah, la-dues. We ate 'em, and said they tasted gud!

Poolish bwa!
--Mahatma Guru Charanand

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:54:34 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: such
Subject: haha Such...funny [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:46:11 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Such, that was bEAutiful !!! LOL [nt]
Message:
Now that's inspirment fer ya.
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:18:41 (EDT)
From: a little news
Email: None
To: All
Subject: about the master
Message:
this was heard recently around the premie grapevine:

1-m has cancelled all programs for the rest of the year, due to security .
India will still happen, but only for Indians..

2-current level of donors in North America has now fallen to 1200....down from 1800 a year or two ago...

3-base of 'believers' still remains at 4,000 in North America, although fewer attendees at weekly videos and very few new recruits....

4-supposedly 65,000 people want knowledge, worldwide....presumably most (at least 62,000) from India....certainly not from the west...

5-currently, a big push for...you guessed it, MONEY!
believers heavily encouraged yesterday to give more MONEY regularly, through credit card withdrawals each month, and also for a SPECIAL ONE TIME DONATION yesterday at the 'cause a global effect' extravaganza....

6-one of the main reasons that more money is needed is to preserve old footage of m onto new video formats from old videos....supposedly some old footage has already been lost, hence the need for MONEY to preserve these valuable videos and photos of the master....

7-MONEY is needed now for new projects...(ever heard that one before?)

8-knowledge is stabilizing...(?)

9-more emphasis on video transmissions...

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:58:05 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: a little news
Subject: Show me the money :D
Message:
Do you think the premies will catch on. I mean, Sept 11th, 2001 has greeatly affected the survival of the future, globally and on a personal level. And, of the all the times to think about asking for a hand-out when this son of a bastard has lived high off the hog. It's sickening. He's desperately trying to accrue as much dough as possible because the odds that he or his family heirs will travel as freely is threatened.

Does Maha take this time to even cowardly reflect on what he has done. NO. NO. He asks for MO MONEY.

If Maha is not travelling or inviting Westerners (DUH!) to India. Then why the hell does he need more souvenirs. Why doesn't he invest his own hard-conned money into his merchandise. He's gonna sell it.

So, he takes your money premies, to replace dwindling inventory, to SELL it to you.

THINK! And if it's too much to think, THINK ANYWAYS.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 21:31:19 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: The brassneck of the guy
Message:
Is astounding. Only if you don't believe he's god though .

What a goldplated fuck : ' I declare I will bring Peace to the world'.

Better get a move on Prem , you're more than 1/2 way through your life & unless you've been keeping the best wine till last(you little joker you) there hasn't been much to show for your tireless efforts so far.

When I see you on Al Jezeera tv in Kandahar , dancing blissfully like your Daddy in front of the devotees united in universal love then I'll bow down before you again .

In the meantime .....get fucked .

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 18:21:27 (EDT)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: a little news
Subject: It's the Incredible Shrinking Cult! (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:24:00 (EDT)
From: Carla
Email: None
To: a little news
Subject: Base of Believers??
Message:
4,000 in North America? Who said the cult is dying? After 30 years in the West, 4,000 still gullible enough to remain in that cult is pretty impressive.

4,000 believers, 90% of which are Middle-aged holdovers from the 70s who still think Maharaji is God. Quite an accomplishment.

Everyone is just waiting until Phase III, then it's really going to happen, you know. I think Maharaji is inventing a computer chip that people shove up their rectums, which gives that experience, and that understanding simultaneously.

By hiding chips in bottles of suppositories, knowledge will finally be spread to the world. To aid in that process, Pwks will be requested to invite people to dinners where constipating foods will be served. It's all part of the plan; you'll see.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:32:28 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Carla
Subject: Don't give M ideas!
Message:
Everyone is just waiting until Phase III, then it's really going to happen, you know. I think Maharaji is inventing a computer chip that people shove up their rectums, which gives that experience, and that understanding simultaneously.

By hiding chips in bottles of suppositories, knowledge will finally be spread to the world. To aid in that process, Pwks will be requested to invite people to dinners where constipating foods will be served. It's all part of the plan; you'll see.

He's a bit desparate at the moment about getting new mugs, and he's about ready to try anything!

John.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:30:42 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: a little news
Subject: Low Attendance????LOL!
Message:
So....

3-base of 'believers' still remains at 4,000 in North America, although fewer attendees at weekly videos and very few new recruits....

That must mean that nobody's going to video events because just a couple of years ago, just about nobody was attending video events.

YaHoo! I remember one time the Emcee and me were the only ones at a local video event....

What's news?

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:15:20 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: a little news
Subject: Hehe ,what's new?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:55:15 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: a little news
Subject: He's in competition with Sainsbury's
Message:
I found out the other day that divine knowledge is being revealed at Sainsbury's supermarkets all over the UK and probably the world. I'll drop in there later and get the info. I think it costs about £1 and is a lot more thorough than Maharaji's teachings.

I'm not kidding here.

.. Dave

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 09:18:44 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Sir Dave }(
Subject: I shop at Sainsbury's,Dave
Message:
I'll have to remember to forget what you've just told me :)
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:46:26 (EDT)
From: Channeling 'Pam' (repost)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My memoirs
Message:
'Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime to
examine the laws of heat.' - Novalis

Greetings to premies and ex-premies,

Over recent years, as one of Maharaji's organisers, and an occasional PAM, I've seen many disturbing things in the world of Knowledge. Additionally, in conversation with other premies, numbers of equally disturbing things have been told to me. One, two, I could walk over, but gradually a picture has emerged that causes me concern for the welfare of people under Maharaji's aegis.

I have come to the conclusion that it is time to say something about all of this. For a number of reasons that I do not wish to debate, I am choosing to remain anonymous.

For myself, it is now clear, I am no longer a part of Maharaji's world, and though I do not wish to become a regular member of the ex premie forum, I would like to thank all involved for their insights and information, and for providing this forum for those people who are looking for answers.

I started some time back putting down in writing all the things that are disturbing me. I've decided the best idea is to 'publish' appropriate extracts of this document here.

Information is a powerful tool, though very little of it has been furnished to us by Maharaji's organisation, or by Maharaji himself. Indeed if I had to name the one pervasive theme of my experience with M - from the very early 1970s till 2001 - it would be secrecy. I am sure there are intelligence organisations that have less secrets than EV, and international spies who have less secrets than PAMs. For three decades, I have been one of the worst offenders.

Information, of the type which has been provided at EPO and on the Forum - and below, I hope - allows premies, aspirants and interested outsiders to make informed decisions about joining or not joining, staying or leaving.

In a way, all the opinions about M are secondary. The fact that Maharaji killed the cyclist in Delhi, and shifted the blame to a premie; that he drinks heavily; that he has selected premie women as sexual playthings; that he is worth 50 million US dollars; that for 25 years he has covered up, and declined to act on, a close lieutenant's sexual abuse of children...all this speaks volumes to those who want to make an informed decision. Our commentary and analysis is close to redundant.

So, here is some more of that information - plus, admittedly, a bit of commentary. Another little corner of the M/K/DLM/EV jigsaw which grew so large for us over the last 30 years. A jigsaw which, till the ex-premie organisation started changing so many lives, we were only shown one or two pieces of at a time.

The below is 18 pages - at least on my PC - so you may want to download it to your machine.

Warm regards,

Pam

****************************************xxxxxx

'How do you find a lion that has swallowed you?' - C.G. Jung

It's been a long trek from the belly of the beast, up the esophagus, out the mouth and into the daylight. I hardly recognize the landscape, I've been in that belly so long.

Quite recently, I've been in the strange positon of doing service for M while in my heart having left him. It was weird - but I got by. I made the final leap when I was ready. In the meantime I attended programs, did my work/service, and went through darshan, without feeling anything. It's bizarre to be in the cult environment and simultaneously deprogram yourself - but it can be done.

What caused the shift? I think simply growing up was part of it. Believing in Santa Claus in advanced middle age just seemed too silly for words. Believing that Maharaji was the Living Master, to say nothing of the incarnation of God, was truly beyond the pale - especially when you'd learned enough of what he is like behind the stage act. (See below for all that.)

But surely Maharaji hasn't taught that he's the incarnation of God since the 1970s?

Yep. Sampuranand declared M to be Lord Krishna (the supreme God of Hinduism) onstage before 80,000 people in Delhi, in the late 1990s. M got up onstage straight after, to support the statement. The Indians loved it of course, though many of us Westerners were a little startled. What about the PR trainings we've had, where we're taught to tell media people that M has never claimed to be God? Maybe it doesn't apply if his statement is not made on American soil??

But in the end - in a strange quirk of fate - it was something little that did it for me. It was a conversation M had with a few of us about computers. Basically he was raving about Macs - how superior they were. I like Macs - though I don't own one - but frankly they are no better than PCs. They just come with a different set of pluses and minuses. M's brand chauvanism seemed really petty to me, and it made me wonder for the first time if he was such a wise figure after all. Funny how a trivial thing like that can trigger all your subterrainian doubts.

Once those doubts began, they were like a torrent. Years of drips, then the Amazon in full flood. Once the 'doubtmaker' - i.e. your mind - begins to awaken, there's no stopping it. I could no more regard M as a special person now than fly to the moon. Even being in a room with him, toward the end, I just saw the screen on which I projected all my love, divinity, fear, and a whole bunch of Freudian father stuff. He's so ordinary once you see all that in yourself.

But the last thing I want to do now is to make him into a monster. That's giving him an equal amount of power. In truth Maharaji is a pleasant enough guy much of the time. He is relaxed and relaxing to be with, and likes to make jokes and keep it light. He certainly relaxes in the company of men better than that of women - but he can get along with women too.

He's just got the equation round the wrong way. M's 'doubtmaker' is actually your self. Your discrimination. Your identity. His 'Knowledge' is actually the illusion.

What else could it be? You can't assess it or comprehend it. In practise (not in theory) it comes and goes all the time. 90% of those who practice it divorce their spouses. The organisation comprised of those who practice it is chronically dysfunctional - with leaders few people have liked, going back 30 years.

Shattering stuff to realise after three decades - virtually the whole of one's adult life. A little like spending 30 years in Heaven, and at the end seeing that the angels were just guys with 5 o'clock shadow and acne who were paid $5 an hour to dress up; that all the singing was taped; and that the Almighty and his throne were just a pretty hologram.

Bitterly disillusioning for a bit. But liberating thereafter - because finally you have some choices.

************************************************xxxx

'Repetition and forced attention are very conducive to the induction of a
trance.' - Steve Hassan

'Because your mind troubles you, give it to me. It won't trouble me.' - Maharaji

With some exceptions, premies as a group are low achievers. The reason, of course, is that premies' ideas about Maharaji and Knowledge depreciate the value of all other endeavour. Whether it's stated or not - and it isn't, thesedays - doing 'other things' just doesn't cut the ice that 'achieving the purpose of this life' does.

So people who could be flying jets or creating successful businesses end up spending a lot of time sitting under blankets with their fingers in their ears.

And one person who spends very little time with his fingers in his ears ends up flying jets.

If you speak to any long-term PAMs - e.g. John Miller (captain of M's old yacht) or Randy Prouty - they'll tell you than M cannot not do events. He adores being adored.

There's only one Major Achiever in the world of Knowledge - not 10,000. And there's only one person at a major event who is completely comfortable in the knowledge of who he is. Everybody else is shooting for the false moon he has installed in a false sky, and can never know rest.

********************************************xx

'Whatever deceives seems to produce a magical enchantment.' -Plato

I know others have said there were no financial improprieties in EV. I can only speak from my own experience - which is that EV was substantially a cash organisation until the 1990s.

Money raised from the membership for Maharaji's personal use - e.g. a new quarters at the 'Windmill' area of Amaroo, costing several hundred thousand dollars - is still kept off the books.

Assuming one could keep Raja Ji's drink-sodden hands off them, the cash proceeds from darshan lines were commonly flown around the world in the suitcases of x-rated premies, till they found their 'home' in M's coffers. I'm talking two, three, four hundred thousand US dollars at a time. These poor couriers would freak out if hunger forced them to take out $10 to buy a meal. They also suffered serious anxiety as they neared their destinations, customs and immigration regulations being what they are.

Raja Ji still pursues his traditional role of schmoozing, wining, dining and flattering rich premies to extract $$$ from them for the family coffers. This is not always successful, as some of these people have class, and Raja Ji is a rather gauche character.

Having seen things from the inside, I'm still kind of shattered that thousands of innocent premies around the West think this thing is about Knowledge, love and the rest. It's a family business, and it's about money. Every recent Indian guru is the same: Sai Baba, Mukhtananda and Osho all trade(d) their spiritual credentials (which, like Maharaji's, are mostly faked anyway), and a convincing stage act, for cash payments from westerners who see themselves as spiritually impoverished.

Money is the main game, but these people also get side-benefits from devotees, such as sex: Sai Baba gives oral sex to adolescent boys in the guise of some ceremony; Mukhtananda was well-known for raping adolescent girls in the guise of transferring 'shakti'; and Osho (a.k.a. Shri Rajneesh) would bonk anything that moved - telling his credulous followers that sex and enlightenment were more or less the same thing.

Most of the above tolerate(d) abusive sexual behaviour by their lieutenants - most frequently child sexual abuse. Sound familiar?

On the home front, the thing that concerns me most - as both a very-recently-ex-EV international organizer and as a human being - is the sexual antics of the instructors.

The sexual frustration of the instructors is not something (thank God) I've experienced firsthand - but it is a kind of epidemic. Numerous premie women I know are molested, propositioned, pursued and worse by instructors, in many countries.

Because these guys - many of whom I've known since the early 1970s - have never grown within a normal relationship, their approach to women now is highly dysfunctional and dishonest. I can't bring myself to name individuals - doing so would tarnish some of EV's brightest lights, of longest-standing. And they're mostly still my friends.

We all got each other into the M cult - and now we're forming networks and giving support as, one by one, each individual is plucked out of it. So even the sexually abusive instructors - and that's the majority of those I know - are people I'd like to help out the door, rather than simply attack and discredit them.

Having said that, this policy will change and names will be named, and incidents described in all their shameful, gory detail, if these practices continue. (And believe me, I know so many of the heartbroken women involved that I will definitely find out.)

Too many women have been damaged by these serial womanisers/gropers/molesters (who lie to their current woman about their affairs with women in other 'ports') to allow this 'epidemic' to continue. This is not abuse a la Jagdeo - but it is playing with people's feelings in a callous, chronic way.

I hope it's really clear that I'm going to blow the whistle on these people if this doesn't change. I don't want to hurt anyone - but at the same time unless these guys start to grow a bit, they'll continue hurting innocent, vulnerable girls all over the planet. And there's none so vulnerable as a woman who believes in the myth of 'Maharaji's instructors'.

I should make it equally clear that I'm not talking about equal, consensual, honest relationships - e.g. Sampuranand and Bai Ji. And I'm not talking about some occasional on-the-road flings - we've all had those. I'm talking about using women as sexual playthings, and serial dishonesty, Maharaji-style.

People around Maharaji (PAMs) get into power trips and bullying - the well-known 'mini-Maharaji' syndrome. Many PAMs drink a lot (or are alcoholics), just like the Master: throwing up on the way back to your tent after a night drinking with M around the campfire is not exactly unknown.

Similarly, just like Maharaji, some instructors have misused their status for sexual gain.

At the very least these instructors need to get counselling on how to form normal relationships. Ideally this counselling will take place post-K - because the inherently dysfunctional master-student relationship is the fertile soil from which dysfunctional approaches to women grow.

A post-Knowledge setting for this kind of change is important, not only because Knowledge tends to replace/reduce normal growth, but because EV will never act against this sort of behaviour. The system thus encourages it.

When reports are made (which is rare), EV takes no action. The only exception was when an instructor had to be spirited out of Australia some years ago following a sexual incident: otherwise EV's record is of no response, no action, no attempt to assist the women involved, and no attempt to change the climate which gives rise to the incidents.

(In recent years policies have been written on sexual harassment. Believe me, they don't apply to M or the instructors.)

M's attitudes to women don't help much either. He once told a group of us at Amaroo that he wanted to gather all the girls with 'good tits' at one end of the property, and all the girls with 'bad tits' at the other end. In his public satsangs he frequently uses the example of when 'you come home from a hard day's work and your wife doesn't have dinner on the table in time' and the like. I'm not wild about PC myself, but this sort of thinking surely belongs in the 1950s.

I've learned recently from a PAM friend that the closest inner circle of PAMs - e.g. the permanent personal staff, those in the personal (now known as the 'executive') area at Amaroo, the airliner staff - have been trained to deceive Maharaji's wife in the Monica matter.

For example if Marolyn enquires as to whether Monica is present in Maharaji's campground with him - and she is indeed there - these staff have been instructed to tell Marolyn that she is not. If Maharaji and Monica are staying in a hotel together, Marolyn is to be given the same line. I was surprised by this at first, as Marolyn has obviously known about Monica for some years. I can only presume that the depth and extent of Maharaji's relationship with Monica is what is being kept secret from his wife, via these institutionalised deceptions.

It doesn't paint a pretty picture of Maharaji - but it makes the inner sanctum staff look even worse, IMO. It's a stark illustration of how one's values can deteriorate when one is focussed on the 'greater good' of keeping the Living Master.

Such training also furthers the climate of deceit about this relationship. Even until the mid-1990s, Monica was telling me, when she entered an area where M was, that she was joining him to 'show him the latest videos' from Visions. As if everyone didn't know.

The deceit - sorry, 'confidentiality' - is pervasive: the Monica thing is just the most visible example.

The Indian premies, for instance, don't know that Maharaji eats meat, drinks and smokes - let alone that he has selected premie women from the audience for his sexual use. It would be a huge cultural leap for them to accept him if they found this out. Most would leave.

For this reason Maharaji's lifestyle is kept top secret in India. Even in the West, no Indian premies (other than x-rated ones like Sampur) are allowed to do service in the personal area or Maharaji's kitchen, specifically because of the effect that learning of Maharaji's lifestyle would have on them.

****************************************xxxxxx

'Today's cults know how to effectively implant vivid negative images deep
within members' unconscious minds, making it impossible for the member to
even conceive of ever being happy and successful outside of the group. When
the unconscious is programmed to accept the negative images, it behaves as
though they were true. The unconscious mind is made to contain a substantial
image-bank of all the bad things that will occur if anyone should ever
betray the group.' - Steven Hassan

By the late 1990s, EPO was starting to crack through the dynamic described by Hassan - showing just how powerful the Internet is. Premies were reading posts and journeys from people they'd once known and trusted - people who had left Maharaji, and left knowledge, but - unaccountably - had not turned into rotten vegetables. People started to leave. One of these was the woman assigned by the PR team to monitor the Forum, amusingly enough.

To counter the rising problem of EPO, M had spent a log time trashing the Web - calling it, for example, 'the world wide parking lot'. This didn't work: premies got wired as much and as enthusiastically as everyone else.

So the decision was made by Maharaji in July '98 to inaugurate an EV website. Mark Winter in the UK was given the task. The publicly stated reason for Enjoying Life was to propagate K and give premies a chance to express gratitude. Maharaji confided to the group responsible for it that the site's real purpose was to counter the anti-M sites - EPO basically.

Latitude was given to Mark W in creating the site - i.e. premies were allowed/encouraged to diverge from the party-line devotional blather and mention problems they might have had getting their minds around Knowledge, and even a few jokes passed by the censors. That was to give the Enjoying Life site a bit of the 'realism' or rawness that traditional EV propaganda has usually lacked - and which EPO has in abundance.

The Enjoying Life site was basically established as EPO's online competitor. In October 98, M told me he was extremely pleased with the result: I saw his Net-phobia evaporate overnight.

********************************************

'The most curious part of the thing was, that the trees and the other things round them never changed their places at all: however fast they went, they never seemed to pass anything. 'I wonder if all the things move along with us?' thought poor puzzled Alice. And the Queen seemed to guess her thoughts, for she cried, 'Faster! Don't try to talk!''

Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass

EV has nearly come to a halt at the present. Less people have received Knowledge in the West in the past year than in any year since 1971 - a 30-year low.

Currently there is a participation drought throughout the West. People are pulling back, and getting on with their real lives. EV is being run by some of the old stalwarts, but the future of both the organisation's structure and the personnel who run it is uncertain. For once this is not because of mass burn-outs or M's habit of firing personnel left, right and center - it's because of a withdrawal of groundtroops.

In Australia, the jewel in M's crown, Amaroo is apparently laying off staff, and activty is very low due to lack of funds. It's not clear who's going to be running the country's organisation overall. This follows a recent move by Derek Harper (instructor), Lee Marges and Catherine Gavigan (organisers) to oust Kay McKinnon (Pacific contact). It was generally believed that her $50,000+ annual salary could be better spent elsewhere.

Kay McKinnon has survived for now, but that status is far from certain for even the middle-term. (A lot of people have been bucking for her to be booted for years.) Thus no-one down under really knows how to begin planning for the organisation's future.

Ironically, all this happens against a backdrop of Maharaji's statement to the rich guys at the Arizona conference last month that he 'wants the politics to stop'.

The politics in EV can never stop, as it's created by imprisoning people's democratic instincts within a top-down theocratic heirarchy: Maharaji, his family, PAMs, instructors, organisers, groundtroops and church ladies. Thus there will always be tension between instinct, conscience and common sense on the one side, and the uncomfortable, ultimately inhuman imperatives of the master-student relationship on the other.

In kicking against this spirit-shrivelling dynamic in themselves, EV people also kick against each other - for they generally project the problem outward. Thus other organisers - but not me - are 'petty', 'insensitive', 'manipulative' and 'power-hungry'.

In a normal organisation this could be ironed out with psychological growth. In one where the expansive behind of the Living Master of The Time sits like a lava plug on the volcano of our emotion, self-expression and individuality, it wasn't possible. So EV has seen nearly three decades of revolutions, changes in style and terminology, trainings, team-building programs, workshops, conferences, mutinies and purges - and everything stays the same.

'Direction is essential for the continuing existence of the crowd. Its
constant fear of disintegration means that it will accept any goal. A crowd
exists so long as it has an unattained goal.' - Elias Canetti

The politics M is trying to amputate has been endemic to EV for 30 years. It's getting more petty and vicious - not less - as the caliber of those remaining dwindles, and EV's pool of available managerial talent shrinks.

The secrecy is getting tighter too. Throughout the West people are getting really sick of the endless emphasis on 'confidentiality' - i.e. secrecy. In some places people have to sign confidentiality agreements before they can even do service. Managers and local contacts are starting to feel they're not able to share much with the groundtroops and church ladies any more, and they feel guilty when they do. (When you sin against the government, a corporation or even your family it's one thing: but sinning against The Living Master an the Whole Purpose of Existence is another.)

I wonder how long the loyal Valerio will want to keep cleaning up the psychological messes created by the unreal relationships we premies have with M. Having been to several of V's trainings, I can vouch that he's a great trainer. But all the trainings, and the 'emergencies' Valerio is responsible for dealing with, will not do more than deal with symptoms - keep the lid on short-term. The basic dynamic needs to change. People need to create proper lives for themselves in the real world, and more importantly create proper inner lives for themselves.

It's pretty obvious that most people who leave K start 'moving' in their relationships, careers, etc, better than before, when they were in the golden cage. But maybe the biggest thing is realising that the INNER life is better without Knowledge, and without Maharaji. Cleaner, happier, more even, more concrete.

I've been on the phone in recent weeks to old friends who have done this. Sadly, I cut them off when they did - but now contact has been reestablished it's great. These guys have ended up happy. Those who've stayed have just got more and more stunted. I felt it in myself till I got out.

Look around. EV is a psychic graveyard. And it's not because people have not done enough trainings.

****************************************xxxxx

'The purpose of Newspeak was not only to provide a medium of expression for
the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to
make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when
Newspeak had been adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a
heretical thought (that is, a thought diverging from the principles of
Ingsoc) should be literally unthinkable.' - George Orwell, 1984

One of the things I have found most surprising since leaving is that so few people followed orders to hand in the DLM magazines in the late 1970s. Ex-premies everywhere still have piles of them. The attempt to re-program us away from our early history - when Maharaji was God, his brothers divine incarnations, and we an elect group more or less guaranteed salvation - was thus a failure.

Probably one of the worst aspects of the attempt to re-write history is the claim by Maharaji and EV that the Indian concepts of the 1970s were promulgated by the mahatmas, and that M had no role in this. In reality, one thing that M aways had direct control over - even as a teenager - was the activities of the mahatmas and instructors.

And of course this is relevant not just to the 'Indian concepts' debate. It's highly relevant to the Jagdeo affair.

Even Glen Whittaker, who hasn't strayed from the reservation in 30 years, believes Maharaji's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo's sexual abuses years ago - when he was given the opportunity - was a grave miscalculation. Both he and Mark Winter are very pissed at M for this, as they had to pick up the PR mess years down the track - a mess M could have prevented by exercising some responsibility several years ago.

Running an 'apologise and explain' PR exercise for a master who shelters a child molester is hardly the kind of dream service for which these extremely sincere guys joined up at the start of the 1970s.

I've known Glen since the early 1970s, and he is a decent, friendly guy. He'll probably be manning the bridge on the good ship EV as it sinks beneath the waves in about 2005, such is his loyalty to M. But he is nevertheless disappointed with M over this affair. And if Glen's disappointed, you can imagine how others feel.

Glen believes that Jagdeo did commit the sexual abuse he is accused of - though he personally didn't know about it before the revelations of the last two years.

Others did, however. Jagdeo's crimes have been known about within EV, and by Maharaji, for more than 20 years. For instance there was a high-level meeting about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children in 1980. Jagdeo appeared to have abused the child of a premie (a woman) then living in Florida. The woman was extremely wound up about it, and the instructor Maria Isabella - among others - was brought in to try and deal with her.

Then as now, Maharaji had a very direct control, and a very thorough knowledge, of the activities of his instructors. In fact he controlled this aspect of his organisation more closely than any other. It's inconceivable that Maharaji was not aware of Jagdeo's activities then. But he chose not to act, beyond having the matter hushed up.

The seachange finally took place when the revelations on EPO became too hard to ignore - especially in the UK. On January 22, 2000, Glen Whittaker wrote an official EV UK communication to Deepak (DUO India chief), informing him of the basic facts, and inquiring as to Jagdeo's whereabouts. It was realised that the Jagdeo 'problem' had the potential for unraveling things badly in the UK, because Maharaji's fingerprints were all over the cover-up.

The revelations on EPO and the forum re Jagdeo's sexual abuse were the PR emergency of the decade for EV. I think what's happened since then is fairly well-known by people here. I'm fairly sure the civil action in India was devised as a 'blind' - to pacify critics with the appearance of action, and to reduce the chances of Jagdeo ever having to appear in a British courtroom.

Glen wasn't involved in having the Jagdeo story suppressed in the Express - though he wasn't exactly on the side of the angels either. (When others found out about what Maharaji had permitted to happen, they left the cult - they didn't stay on to defend the indefensible.)

EV's current read on the evil exes is that a kind of impasse has been reached: damage has been done, but there's not much more they can do, with Jagdeo in India. He'll never be allowed to set foot in the West again of course.

The rules of the recent trainings are:

10 second rule
conscious
respect
confidentiality
honesty
participate
unanimous
no brain farts
no dark thoughts

But the rule underlying all of these - at least the trainings I went to - was RESPONSIBILITY. People who didn't take responsibility for their actions were absolutely stomped on by M. I saw hard-boiled businessmen stumbling around in the Delhi dust in shock, and non-smokers take up smoking, after some of his temper explosions around the question of responsibilty. People were terrified: it is no exaggeration to say that some shook from head to foot. Many probably thought the sky was about to fall in.

How does that all square with sitting on his hands since the late 1970s, when he was first informed of Jagdeo's criminal activities? Maybe Perfect Masters are somehow exempt from preventing child sexual abuse, because they have their eye on some larger karmic scene which is invisible to the rest of us? Believe that and you may as well believe in the tooth fairy.

On a recent Delhi trip, I chatted with Jagdeo in the IOC, in the centre of the ashram - where we were both staying. He is not a 'sick old man' living in retirement in an Indian village. He is sprightly, reasonably fit-looking, and till recently at least had access to the centre of things in DUO India - maybe still does. He also still has access to children - was indeed spotted fondly patting one in the IOC in the last year or two - though I have no evidence that he is sexually abusing same, and hopefully this is unlikely after all the bad publicity.

The Jagdeo affair is a towering example of the corruption that's set into the heart of what I believe to have, once, been a genuine attempt to help the world. That M is so central to Jagdeo's crimes continuing is, alone, reason enough for me to leave. There isn't a rationalization in the world that excuses complicity in raping children. That my friends continue to defend M in this respect seriously stretches my respect for them.

****************************************xxxx

'The disciple is unworthy; modestly he sits at the Master's feet and guards
against having ideas of his own. Mental laziness becomes a virtue; one can
at least bask in the sun of a semi-divine being. He can enjoy the archaism
and infantilism of his unconscious fantasies without loss to himself, for
all responsibility is laid at the Master's door.' - C.G. Jung

'Guru does not deal with us as father or as friend, but as children. As children.' - Maharaji

The first seed of doubt was sown in my mind in 1997. In LA toward the end of that year, Maharaji was depressed for two or three months - right through till Christmas. I was quite shocked by this.

Things had upset M at the end of the 1997 Amaroo event - like a cow getting into his private campground and shitting in front of his doorway. Everybody certainly heard about that: 'I almost stood in it!'

(Not a cow shits without...)

Also he was stopped by some security person on a road for not having a pass. Finally, the schizophrenic son of two premies dropped some acid, then wandered into his campground for a chat at the doorstep to the divine pent. M's radio calls to the security personnel were misunderstood, and people raced all over the property - except to where the problem was. His final radio call was pretty testy.

But the thing that made him the most pissed was an article that appeared in an Aussie newspaper. I think it said that he was a rich guru who did rather well financially out of his devotees, or words to that effect. Not something you could actually argue with. He was really angry at the PR team for not somehow stopping that article from appearing.

And I remember thinking - before I could censor myself in the time-honored premie way: 'Why doesn't he alter his own behavior if he wants to stop articles like that from appearing?' The article just described the luxury homes, the jet, etc, as far as I can recall. All of these things are M's lifestyle choices - not things invented by a malicious journalist.

Naturally the PR team accepted the spears in the chest, and various post-mortems were done to ensure they performed better next time.

NB: After this episode of divine depression in 1997, I logged onto the forum, and it definitely caused some drips. But there was so much invective here that I decided it was safer and saner in EV. (Which is really saying something.) The forum is still too abusive and unsafe for many people to belong. Several have left the forum for the same reason. There is a frequent tendency for angry and abusive people to dominate the debate, to shout down those who disagree with them, and to spray the forum with dozens of posts.

On balance, the forum is a great boon to the ex world. But unless the above problem is somehow redressed, it will never attract a wide variety or large number of exes.

****************************************xxxxx

'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru... Remember, Guru is God. Bigger than God. Bigger and bigger than God... So, see that if you want to give devotion, give it to Guru. You will find that Guru is the Supremest of all. It is said that 'In a day I should bow many thousands, thousands, thousands, thousands, millions, millions and millions of times to Satguru.' Such a high
thing, such a high power, has come. I was seeking for God, but God has come in body! What can be higher and holier than that?' - Maharaji

'Who says I am not under the special protection of God?' - Adolph Hitler

It's fairly well-known that the people around Maharaji tend to be heavy-drinking and competitive, and to engage in internicine warfare. (They even joke about it themselves.) They're also frequently ill physically. Indeed most of the half-dozen people closest to M are physical wrecks. I think a lot of this comes from the chronic fear in which PAMs live - fear of displeasing the superior power in person.

The majority of people who have been in Maharaji's company for prolonged periods no longer acknowledge him as their master. The 'loyal' exceptions - e.g. Marolyn, Monica, Sampur - generally have an economic or power benefits to keep them in the fold longer-term.

****************************************xxxxx

'When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've
ever met, and then you learn that the cause of the group is something you
never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to
be true, it probably is too good to be true! Don't give up your education,
your hopes and ambitions, to follow a rainbow.' - Jeanne Mills, former member of the People's Temple.

At the recent event down at Amaroo, there were serious financial losses from a malfunctioning credit card system - people's purchases didn't register. In the months before the event there was a premie revolt over the huge registration fees. Not long before the event only a few hundred had registered. Panic set in, and Padarthanand was sent on the road to explain how the fee wasn't mandatory after all(!) Thereafter, a large number of people were admitted for free.

The upshot is that the Amaroo finances are not in good shape. Some of the premies whose loans and mortgages support its existence are getting a bit sweaty-palmed.

The official story on the 2001 event is that it was all sweetness and light. But the usual brawls went on. Most of the tent-erecting team mutinied before the event, because of a 'fascist' manager. (It could have been 1974.) The manual workers, without whom the event wouldn't have happened, were kicked off the site at event time, as usual, which caused lots of bad feeling. Probably they'll all swallow it, and come back next year for more. Then complain again when the predictable happens.

Serious intra-managerial disputes lingered on from the Sept 2000 fundraising event, where several relationships melted down amid that event's howling dust-storms, especially in the front-of-house area - which has always been a major source of potential revenue, thus the importance of cohesion there.

Attending the Sept '00 fundraiser, the thing I enjoyed most was the bar at night - watching Yoram work the room (that guy should work for the GOP) and catching up with old friends.

Valerio didn't get the respect during the day (the training) that he gets from poorer, community premies: these guys are rich, and aren't used to being patronized and belittled. He got put in his place a couple of times - though the training as a whole was fun and educational.

Now, a year later, the defections of higher-level managers - some of them from K and M altogether - have left thinned-out upper EV echelons, and people are doing senior jobs who would not have been considered five years ago. There have been worried discussions about the quality of the folks who are now in quite senior managerial positions.

********************************************x

'A striking expression, with the aid of a small amount of truth, can
surprise us into accepting a falsehood.' - Vauvenargues

I'd guess that the disgraceful CAC site was M-approved, simply because every major venture of premies without exception is M-approved.

(Not a penny drops...)

A PR friend told me that the American premie writer Scott Ritter (he's currently hanging out down under I think) was deputized by the international team, earlier this year, to help come up with an online antidote to EPO that used 'radical new thinking'.

Scott, I gather, was stymied by this. How could you shoot down so many well-attested facts? I woud surmise that CAC was born out of this frustration.

Personally I think Scott is too nice to have created CAC, but the fact that he was put on the case this year suggests that an offical concern about EPO had reached sufficient heights for radical action to be taken - by someone. And taken it was.

One reason CAC was pulled, I would guess, was that it was causing so much disgust even among the senior EV managers. Giving away exes' family's addresses, and tarring exes as pedophiles, is about as low as it gets: even the brainwashed have standards.

The big-eating Frenchman would have kept this operation under the tightest of wraps, were it an officially sanctioned one. Even most of the PR team probably wouldn't have been told it was sanctioned by M - let alone anyone else.

All the above re CAC is speculation - though not unreasonable speculation. It certainly fits with EV's pro-active pattern on the Internet since EPO began, of countering it. First came the large technical task of 'influencing' search engines so that search words like 'Maharaji' and 'Elan Vital' brought up the official sites first and the anti ones last. That job was done by an Australian techie in the late 1990s, and took him many months. Then Enjoying Life. Then Life's Great - which reversed the original policy of censoring premies. CAC kind of fits with a developing pattern.

****************************************xxxxx

'A morality based solely upon the tenuous thread of religious mythology
is only effective for a comparatively primitive mind, through which God is
invested with magical parental powers of punishment and reward. As people in
general become emotionally healthier, more able to individuate from their
parents, the gods become divested of their power to control.' - Robert Godwin

As we grow away from this old, unhealthy parental relationship, I hope we exes can also get away from an adversarial relationship with premies. Their sins were till recently ours, and their blindness was ours too.

A master-student dynamic distorts everything below it, but you don't see that when you're in it. An exhausted housemother falls asleep in the meditation room, and someone yells at her. A rich boy from Hardwar who got very lucky with the Western zeitgeist wants another Maserati, so premies forego things they and their children need to buy it for him. Someone commits suicide in the ashram, and the premie doctor fakes the death certificate.

Not things people would normally do - but a cult provokes deep, strange loyalties, and 'abnormal' becomes normal. That's what a cult is, pretty much. We lived within this strange paradigm too. And accepted it, and propagated it to others.

I think our task is to support each other in getting out, just as we supported each other on the way in, and for the duration. I strongly feel that we're all in it together: some have manned the lifeboats, and some have even rowed well clear of the sinking ship. But others are still in the ballroom listening to the band; and others still are fast asleep in their staterooms. But everybody is leaving, one way or another.

It's a co-operative venture. We owe it to the church ladies, and even to the Glens and Valerios, to make it that way. If circumstances had been slightly different, they might be 'out' - building EPO, securing the safe ground for us to step on - and we might still be the front row with the arti trays, like those guys at Amaroo this year - pledging undying love to the womanizing, alcoholic Californian multi-millionaire whom we'd persuaded ourselves was the most important person on Earth - in blissful ignorance of the impending revival of the self we'd been taught to despise.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 06:23:04 (EDT)
From: Zorro
Email: None
To: Channeling 'Pam' (repost)
Subject: how many more times ??
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:08:40 (EDT)
From: Keep printing 'Pam'!
Email: None
To: Zorro
Subject: Who knows?
Message:
Who knows?

Maybe it'll eventually seem true!

Truth through repetition! 'We are at war with Eurasia. We've always been at war with Eurasia.' - George Orwell

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 20:20:10 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Keep printing 'Pam'!
Subject: Maybe it is true....
Message:
....if you know it isn't , feel free to disagree .
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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 15:03:55 (EDT)
From: tcheuki
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Maybe it is true....
Message:
I'm proud to annonce you, Zorro, that it's partly on my demand, they republished it. And don't play that Goebbels' stuff with me please, you don't know what you are talking about.
In other way, claro, if you are sure it's not true, expose your facts etc etc..
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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 06:02:49 (EDT)
From: zorro
Email: None
To: tcheuki
Subject: Re: Maybe it is true....
Message:
who are you talkin' to ?
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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 07:16:01 (EDT)
From: tcheuki
Email: None
To: zorro
Subject: Re: oops....
Message:
sorry made a mistake with the french forum and with the other post

I apologize

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:48:28 (EDT)
From: New Premie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: can you help me?
Message:
Can you tell me a little about Maharaji? I received k not long a go. I read here some ugly stuff about him. Is it true? Who is Maharaji?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 12:20:15 (EDT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: Read all about him on EPO
Message:
Go to www.ex-premie.org and read the history section. That will tell you a lot. In a nutshell, he's a guru who grew up in the guru business by peddling Eastern religious bullshit to gullible kids in the West in the early 70s, and they got so indoctrinated that a couple of thousand of them to this day, send him enough money so he lives in obscene luxury.

Also, he has nothing to do with k, doesn't practice it himself, but he teaches people that he is giving them something special and that he has something to do with whatever nice meditation experience people might have, or hope to have, or think they might have if they were just devoted to him enough.

He has financially, sexually, psychologically and morally ripped off thousands of people.

Anything else you want to know?

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 07:53:05 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: only you can help you
Message:
the stuff here is true. I practiced knowledge for 28 years. i quit last year, tired of waiting for something that naver came, and fed up with being treated like crap.
don't fall for the hype. it's all fake.
maharaji doesnt practice knowledge, himself. never.

he uses it to get your money, and that's ALL it is to him.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 07:38:14 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: Superior power in person..didn't you know? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 06:21:21 (EDT)
From: Zorro
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: Re: can you help me?
Message:
How can you have received K and know nothing 'bout M???
I think you try to fool us.
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:20:45 (EDT)
From: Old Premie
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: Yes.
Message:
This is where you will the ugly stuff.
Look inside to find the beauty. You know how. You know who showed you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:40:39 (EDT)
From: Old Premie
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: Yes.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:45:16 (EDT)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: didn't you mean 'new pwk'NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:43:44 (EDT)
From: Got a life
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: Get a life, 'new premie' [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:20:41 (EDT)
From: an old ex
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: Re: can you help me?
Message:
If you are a premie then what the hell you doing here and why did you take k.

Nah, I think you are a caca. Scott is right.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:35:19 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: Trolling for exes.
Message:
For some reason you just wreak of dyed-in-the-wool premie. I don't know why. Maybe it rained last night. Either that, or the bait's just gone rotten.
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:05:43 (EDT)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: LOLs ()) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:26:15 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: check it out: facts vs. fiction
Message:
http://www.ex-premie.org/
[ http://www.ex-premie.org/ ]
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:43:39 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: Go directly to Lifesgreat - do not ...
Message:
do not pass Anything Goes Too, do not collect 200 jokes from E-Drek...do not visit It IS So. Collect no rent on your properties..

...and miss a turn.

You recently received Knowledge. And yet you don't know who Maharaji is?

Sheesh! What's the citeria used these day, walk in the door and stick your hand up?

Hey, come to think of it, that's exactly how it was for me in 1971.

So nothing's changed!

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:57:33 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Don't get too cozy, SC/David/Cerise
Message:
Just in case you did not see this post from Jim further down (of course you did see it but chose to ignore it) here it is again:

Jim said: ''If that's the case (that David Roupell posted as Cerise)he owes Abi an apology. Wasn't 'Cerise' the 'person' who made that 'rogue elephant' comment? This guy owes her one big, big, big apology for that one. There's no getting past it either. No compromise, no nothing. Abi's comfort here is paramount, in my view. David W (or is it David R? I'm still confused) simply has to resolve that, if he can, before I'd ever talk with him.''

I responded to Jim thus: ''I had forgotten about that, Jim. Yes, I'm sure David will rue the day that he ever said that. He must have been carried away with writer's vanity when he said it - intoxicated by the cleverness of his turn of phrase. Yes, if he is the decent guy that I am willing to believe he is, then he will offer Abi a public apology for that.''

How about it, me old mate?

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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 05:27:40 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: My coziness is already assured Pat
Message:
Back to the mindy power games then folks???

Oh well, here's one for starters...... Jimbo must publicly apologise for this before I talk to him ever ever e ver e v er er ever again.....sob...

As for Marolyn's convalescence -- big deal.
This is not a daytime cult, friend; this is the give-up-your-world-and-look-for-Maharaji-in-death cult. He's supposedly the Lord; what's so dainty about his wife's recovery?

How many more would you like Pat, shall I start going through your and Jim's files?? (Please...NOOOOOO!!!)

Na, I'm in the middle of recording a complicated classical piece, almost at the end of note for note harmonising, quite an interesting challenge and considerably more worthwhile time spent. In my opinion.

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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 18:44:29 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: 'note for note harmonising [sic]'?
Message:
Haven't heard that one before. Sounds complicated, indeed. Who are you trying to impress? Do you imagine you are the only busy person here, SC? (busy musician even?)

If you are unbusy enough to engage here in the first place, it seems a mite too convenient - not to mention rude - to ship out on the grounds of more important business. Still, I am sure you have time to apologise to Abi before you go forth and harmonise.

Moley says watch you don't do yourself an injury by ending up on an inverted triad.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 23:56:16 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes, very different than sweeping bend harmonies
Message:
It's an ancient practice few modern guitarists appreciate, let alone attempt to re-create, nowadays. It involves learning a long(ish) piece of Sonata style music and playing along with the exact same notes, couplets, triads, quadrants and appegios but using (what I have discovered has to be an extensive) knowledge of music theory to play the suitable alternatives to each note. The end result is that unique 12 century inversed bobbing scale effect often heard during a canon as it builds up. It's a marvellous discipline and a great sound once recorded with finely balanced levels,eq's etc.
One of the interesting bonuses is that the finished product sounds a great deal more complex and complicated than the relatively simple act of playing of two guitar lines alongside each other, which is all it is.
Talking about it doesn't impress anyone really. When people listen, well that's a different experience and yes, I am most definitely trying to impress the listener.

My mum is impressed. When I sent her the rough cut she joyfully exclaimed..''Darling! I didn't know you had it in you. What a dark horse you are!' She is more used to wincing politely at my latest metal guitar frenzy, I wanted to show her that just because some (alright - most) of my music has heavy metal overtones doesn't mean it isn't both interesting and clever in its construction, arrangement. and presentation. The recital of a challenging piece of classical music, familiar to her, being played with a clean voice rather than through a Boss overdrive pedal, has really opened her eyes and ears.

Oh yea Nige, have you re-posted any more cruel cutting troll attacks on cult victims, from yesterday's papers to today's front page headlines, so they can re-visit them? (or in one victim's case, see the insult for the very first time)

Come on, surely you can increase their suffering a little bit more and thus further your noble and honourable cause of 'saving' them from attacks by uncaring cruel cult apologists.
Must be a real conscience bender... proudly proclaiming to rescue people from the very pit you guys graciously fling them into...all in the name of 'Public Interest'. Oh, of course!

Who are you trying to impress? I doubt the victims are...

I'm not 'shipping out' by the way...For nearly six months I have been 'engaging' here during tea breaks only. 5-10 mins max.
Haven't you noticed the marked decrease in vicious troll flaming spam attacks on F7? :)

Now that we are recording and arranging continuously, tea breaks have begun to resemble 'arrangement debates' which, though tedious, are considerably more productive than conversing with some distant imagination housed in a body thousands of miles away.
I call it a self imposed exile from forum gasbagging. Feels great.

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 17:29:23 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Roll over Vaughan Williams
Message:
Oh yea Nige, have you re-posted any more cruel cutting troll attacks on cult victims, from yesterday's papers to today's front page headlines, so they can re-visit them? (or in one victim's case, see the insult for the very first time)

I would be interested in an explanation here, if you're not too busy showing off your appegios (sic) to your mum.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 23:26:43 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Counterpoint Nige, Counterpoint
Message:
Nige, I don't want to get any further in to this because I don't view you in an aggresive light and have no wish to squabble, but I wanted to point out that the insensitive post cerise made was (in my naive opinion) all but safe until the person who received it decided to re-post it at the top of the next day's forum page. I believe the person cerise was talking to was called Nigel. The communication was going well which led cerise to make her blurting statement. If the person wasn't you, then please accept my apology. But I think it was. Anyway, I'm more interested in reading your fascinating theories about Richard Dawkins etc than this trite stuff. RD was on telly not long ago - what an interesting fellow, who seems to revel in the controversy he stirs up all over the globe. he he

Seems the UK is enjoying the new, unprecedented 'peace' after the move by the IRA et al, There's definitely still hope if that kind of thing can happen after 90 years of turmoil and conflict.

How does one spell 'appegios' by the way? Couldn't find it in my dictionary.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:25:15 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: 'Arpeggios'
Message:
I hardly recognise you in your present chatty mode, SC - and I am glad you don't see me in an aggressive light, apparently - though it was you who just accused me of 'cruelty', simply because at the time I reposted your (ie. the totally implausible cerise's) words in the hope of getting you both blocked from the forum. I can't speak for Abi, but if someone anonymous was flaming me on the forum, however low down, I would (a) want to know about it and (b) hope the troll concerned would be outed and banned.

I'd like to believe you are now posting here in 'good faith' (!), David - PatC seems to believe so - but given the time and effort many of us put in to offering advice and support to your previous alter-egos, it may take a little while yet. Hope you understand that...? Good faith here basically means a willingness to discuss the guru bloke and all his works openly and honestly, not hiding behind masks, etc.

re. the IRA - basically it's great they have agreed the decommissioning, but I reckon it's a case of they jumped before they were pushed. Post Sept 11, their US goodwill + funding sources will have hit an all-time crisis. Nowadays either you are one of 'us' (not a terrorist) or one of them and they realised which side their bread was buttered..

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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 13:51:39 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Sure, did up the dirt, David
Message:
I will apologise for anything I said to a real person. Dissing your bleached blonde multiple personalities doesn't count.
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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 11:51:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Forget it
Message:
I stand by every word of it. If you can't see the difference maybe next time you think of taking in a video you should sneak into Sunday school instead.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 03:13:57 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry Abi
Message:
I apologise for that ill timed and insensitive remark about rogue elephants. I was over reacting to what I perceived to be rude and aggresive comments coming from you at the time. I was highly unfamiliar with this forum and any of the topics.
Not that it makes it any more excusable.

I have been a little soothed by the knowledge that the post was NOT sent to you but was an offhand comment made to someone I was getting to know (at 2.40 am) in a thread that was about to go over the horizon. Being somewhat naive to forum habits I thought that by the next day it would have disappeared and all would be well. But the person I was talking to (who I wrote to above) maliciously re-posted the message the next day at the top of the new forum page and drew everyone's attention to it thus getting steam rising from all quarters and making your plight worse.

Incidently, I have gotten to know you (as other characters) and we get along fine and have an equitable understanding of your ongoing dilema which should, and will we hope, be resolved.

I might add that cerise was totally 'in character' for a few weeks there and might as well have been someone else. I almost believed she was real myself! It was a very interesting writing exercise but I'm sorry that it spilled over into a personal area of yours, one in which you should certainly not have to deal with silly pretend characters and their big mouths.

Please assure my friend Pat Conlon that I have finished with characters and have neither the time or inclination to post as anyone but SC (my darling Selena Crumpet).

He's right, I do respect the 'discerning audience' on this forum and am looking forward to a harmonious sharing of views and beliefs in the future with some of the more aware and intelligent members of western society that I have ever encountered.
I'm not sucking up, there are some truly awful people here too but I ignore them like they (hopefully) ignore me.

I imagine you and your offspring are enjoying the warmer weather. Aussie summer at last...

...onward to the beach!

Stay well,
SC (David R)

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 21:35:08 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Glad to hear it [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 11:38:33 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Thanks, David
Message:
David,

While I can't speak for Abi, of course, and wouldn't hazard a guess as to how she'll react, I'm happy to give you credit for taking this step. At least it's much better than nothing.

Thanks,

Jim

Jim

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 04:12:02 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Well done, DavidR
Message:
I was hoping that my impression of you was not wrong and that I have not made a mistake to give you a second hearing and taken a gamble on your basic human decency.

My only quibble is that you said someone ''maliciously'' reposted your ''rogue elephant'' remark. I don't think it was done maliciously but with indignation and outrage.

I'm sure your newfound respect for others in not posting under aliases and playing silly buggers with us will result in more respect for you. At least I'm pleased. Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 00:01:51 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Hope so, yea Pat
Message:
I hope to use my new found acceptance here responsibly and thoughtfully. I will still attempt silly jokes but only with the intention of eliciting a wry grin or a laugh. Ok, so I'm not as good at it as you or Jim but I can still try.
But why am I here on this site?? (against considerable domestic pressure against!)
Well, without name dropping or boasting about my huge global cyber influence, let's just say that it's common knowledge in EV/Visions circles that some of you guys make a lot of sense in your posts and bring up valid questions that need to be somehow answered satisfactorily or explained. This is what is important.

Apart from that I appreciate the humour and no nonsense common sense of some of my favorite posters here and I'm sure we can mull over mutual points of 'interest' to all our benefits. For example, I have a couple of questions surrounding the recent international broadcast that I believe are interesting and relevant. The community day was fabulous apart from one or two points. There were so many people I have never seen before that I think propagation is going pretty well in this area! :)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:38:51 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: And I am going to try to stop any...
Message:
...knee-jerk anti-premie prejudice from me. It's very easy to fall into as a way of dealing with a very complex relationship, the expremie/premie one.

Remember, we also once believed what you do and, as I'ver said to you before, it takes a lot of time and effort to rid oneself of the Maharajism belief system because it affected the deepest part of ourselves. So I'll try not to react hastily or emotionally. Your reason for being here gives me some concern however.

You said: ''Well, without name dropping or boasting about my huge global cyber influence, let's just say that it's common knowledge in EV/Visions circles that some of you guys make a lot of sense in your posts and bring up valid questions that need to be somehow answered satisfactorily or explained. This is what is important.''

I can't stand the idea that I'm giving you ideas for more revisionism and spin control and that's what it sounds like. But I'll take care of that if it is the case so fire away.

You said: ''I'm sure we can mull over mutual points of 'interest' to all our benefits. For example, I have a couple of questions surrounding the recent international broadcast that I believe are interesting and relevant.''

I'm not interested in the broadcasts so there's no benefit to me in discussing however just go ahead and ask your questions and I'll see if I can be of any benefit to you.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 06:06:17 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Me no spin doctor unothat
Message:
now you stop that mistrust right THERE!!!

I'm NOT here fishing for angles to throw at anyone. You must understand Pat that many pwk's actually AGREE with some of your misgivings, we just declined to hurl out the gujibaby with the bathwater. That's ok, we are entitled to revere him if we wish, that doesn't mean we don't love our friends that don't revere him. So quit suspecting me of being an IRA plant.

The questions I have aren't to you, more like to the four winds that I would share with people like yourself...

I wouldn't dream of trying to play 'conversion' games with lesjohfaith etc so why would I with you?

By the way...I own several spinning tops, one a really ols wooden thing that spins for much longer than the others. I can speak from experience...One CANNOT control a spin.
The spin you fear is based on fears you have aboutr something. It's like me being paranoid to posy here incase you guys set me up for an expremie conversionb. Give me a break, I know myself better than that. I say, trust your own revision, enjoy your own spin....and leave it at that.

love and best wishes from David

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 15:19:46 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Spinning
Message:
Actually, David, I don't distrust you or really worry that the cult PR folks will use my ideas to make it more palatable. That's no longer possible.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 07:48:20 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Yo SC
Message:
Hi there

Whether you're still a premie or not is neither here nor there, in one sense.Being less of a fiction and more upfront is just carries credibility and hence more respect as I'm sure you know anyway.

....and Cerise? Ah yeah I remeber her.....do you remeber my ' I may get flak' ( or something like that) post stating how I thought 'she' was a load of bollocks? Hahaha ....and 'her' indignation at my accusations was even funnier, given that I knew I was right. Ah well, put it down to a little part of cyber history.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:33:36 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Yup, I remember!
Message:
Yea, you must be praised for that, it was a brilliant almost uncanny piece of deduction work! I figure it's the UK connection that triggered something in you. I was around and a hippie at the same time in UK history as you, we may well have crossed paths at various places in the early 70's or late sixties and I think you gleaned some info from the time that could only have come from someone there at the time. My writing skills increased markedly thanks to your observations of my mistakes (much like my current editors pick out) so thanks for that and I hope you enjoyed cerise's more bright and breezy posts which were meant to gladden the heart rather than irritate.

I'm really happy about the IRA stuff in the UK, my brother was in Ulster in 1969 in the Grenadier Guards and I recal him being a bit nervous and also confused about being there at all (our grandad was born in Tipperary) and he lost friends over there so we felt it keenly. Most of my family live in London too. Hard to believe the troubles could be over. Oh and thanks Nigel for the brief history of the IRA's recent decision, it makes sense. Now it's only the hard liners left, just like the Islamic extremists...hmmm

I'm off to pick up my guitar from the workshop. It has two blinding new pickups and to be frank I'm a bit worried that the thing will severely distract me from the work I'm doing (recording a rather complicated classical piece) that is fresh in my memory and I want it to stay there. I know I'll be tempted to play the thing and if it sounds the way I'm hoping, well, that could be a worry for the ongoing tasks I'm currently engaged in...

Oh yes, discipline discipline discipline ......what a wonderful tool!

stay well derm,
SC

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:07:42 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To:

Subject: To start I would suggest that you...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:05:18 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: New Premie
Subject: Why don't you say more about yourself, first
Message:
If you don't give yourself a fair introduction, than many people will see this for a hoax which, incidentally, it sounds like.

As a matter of fact, it sounds JUST like the tone of posts were premies were playing games.

A good place to start:

Who are you? How did you hear about Maha? When did you get here? Why did you receive Knowledge? What convinced you? What exactly do you want to know about Maha? And why?

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:03:07 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo
To: New Premie
Subject: Re: can you help me?
Message:
He is an Indian guy who inherited a family Guru business, although there turned out to be a family feud as to who the real heir was which wound up in the Indian courts.
He purports to be a meditation Master and promotes four fairly common meditation techniques along with an agenda of devotion to him (thinly disguised). Evidence of the latter could be found at this year's Event at Amaroo, Australia, where his devotees filed past him and kissed his feet.

He has amassed enormous wealth from his followers and also elicites blind devotion from many of them in the form of free work undertaken. Basically it is a form of Bhakti Yoga adapted for Westerners.

Whether he has anything to offer is for you to find out, but my advice would be to hold onto your own discrimination and common sense and not allow yourself to swallow unsubstantiated claims about him.

Personally, I fell for it hook line and sinker and am today a wiser and saner person, secure in the knowledge that no other person can do the spiritual work for you. But I wasted 10 years thinking that M was going to bring me enlightenment.

Good Luck and check in with us from time to time!

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:02:07 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Pam's Memoirs reposted
Message:
Subject: 'my memoirs'
From: Pam

To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 20:54:30 (EDT)

Email Address: Not Provided

Message:

'Where it is a duty to worship the sun, it is pretty sure to be a crime to examine the laws of heat.' - Novalis Greetings to premies and ex-premies, Over recent years, as one of Maharaji's organisers, and an
occasional PAM, I've seen many disturbing things in the world of Knowledge. Additionally, in conversation with other premies, numbers of equally disturbing things have been told to me. One, two, I could walk
over, but gradually a picture has emerged that causes me concern for the welfare of people under Maharaji's aegis. I have come to the conclusion that it is time to say something about all of this. For a number of reasons that I do not wish to debate, I am choosing to remain anonymous. For myself, it is now clear, I am no longer a part of Maharaji's world, and though I do not wish to become a regular member of the ex premie forum, I would like to thank all involved for their insights and information, and for providing this forum for those people who are looking for answers. I started some time back putting down in writing all the things that are disturbing me. I've decided the best idea is to 'publish' appropriate extracts of this document here. Information is a powerful tool, though very little of it has been furnished to us by Maharaji's
organisation, or by Maharaji himself. Indeed if I had to name the one pervasive theme of my experience with M - from the very early 1970s till 2001 - it would be secrecy. I am sure there are intelligence organisations that have less secrets than EV, and international spies who have less secrets than PAMs. For three decades, I have been one of the worst offenders. Information, of the type which has been provided at EPO and on the Forum - and below, I hope - allows premies, aspirants and interested outsiders to make informed decisions about joining or not joining, staying or leaving. In a way, all the opinions
about M are secondary. The fact that Maharaji killed the cyclist in Delhi, and shifted the blame to a premie; that he drinks heavily; that he has selected premie women as sexual playthings; that he is worth 50 million US dollars; that for 25 years he has covered up, and declined to act on, a close lieutenant's sexual abuse of children...all this speaks volumes to those who want to make an informed decision. Our commentary and analysis is close to redundant. So, here is some more of that information - plus, admittedly, a bit of commentary. Another little corner of the M/K/DLM/EV jigsaw which grew so large for us over
the last 30 years. A jigsaw which, till the ex-premie organisation started changing so many lives, we were only shown one or two pieces of at a time. The below is 18 pages - at least on my PC - so you may want to download it to your machine. Warm regards, Pam ****************************************xxxxxx 'How do you find a lion that has swallowed you?' - C.G. Jung It's been a long trek from the belly of the beast, up
the esophagus, out the mouth and into the daylight. I hardly recognize the landscape, I've been in that belly so long. Quite recently, I've been in the strange positon of doing service for M while in my heart
having left him. It was weird - but I got by. I made the final leap when I was ready. In the meantime I attended programs, did my work/service, and went through darshan, without feeling anything. It's bizarre to
be in the cult environment and simultaneously deprogram yourself - but it can be done. What caused the shift? I think simply growing up was part of it. Believing in Santa Claus in advanced middle age just
seemed too silly for words. Believing that Maharaji was the Living Master, to say nothing of the incarnation of God, was truly beyond the pale - especially when you'd learned enough of what he is like behind
the stage act. (See below for all that.) But surely Maharaji hasn't taught that he's the incarnation of God since the 1970s? Yep. Sampuranand declared M to be Lord Krishna (the supreme God of Hinduism)
onstage before 80,000 people in Delhi, in the late 1990s. M got up onstage straight after, to support the statement. The Indians loved it of course, though many of us Westerners were a little startled. What
about the PR trainings we've had, where we're taught to tell media people that M has never claimed to be God? Maybe it doesn't apply if his statement is not made on American soil?? But in the end - in a
strange quirk of fate - it was something little that did it for me. It was a conversation M had with a few of us about computers. Basically he was raving about Macs - how superior they were. I like Macs - though I
don't own one - but frankly they are no better than PCs. They just come with a different set of pluses and minuses. M's brand chauvanism seemed really petty to me, and it made me wonder for the first time if
he was such a wise figure after all. Funny how a trivial thing like that can trigger all your subterrainian doubts. Once those doubts began, they were like a torrent. Years of drips, then the Amazon in full flood.
Once the 'doubtmaker' - i.e. your mind - begins to awaken, there's no stopping it. I could no more regard M as a special person now than fly to the moon. Even being in a room with him, toward the end, I just
saw the screen on which I projected all my love, divinity, fear, and a whole bunch of Freudian father stuff. He's so ordinary once you see all that in yourself. But the last thing I want to do now is to make him
into a monster. That's giving him an equal amount of power. In truth Maharaji is a pleasant enough guy much of the time. He is relaxed and relaxing to be with, and likes to make jokes and keep it light. He
certainly relaxes in the company of men better than that of women - but he can get along with women too. He's just got the equation round the wrong way. M's 'doubtmaker' is actually your self. Your
discrimination. Your identity. His 'Knowledge' is actually the illusion. What else could it be? You can't assess it or comprehend it. In practise (not in theory) it comes and goes all the time. 90% of those who
practice it divorce their spouses. The organisation comprised of those who practice it is chronically dysfunctional - with leaders few people have liked, going back 30 years. Shattering stuff to realise after three
decades - virtually the whole of one's adult life. A little like spending 30 years in Heaven, and at the end seeing that the angels were just guys with 5 o'clock shadow and acne who were paid $5 an hour to dress
up; that all the singing was taped; and that the Almighty and his throne were just a pretty hologram. Bitterly disillusioning for a bit. But liberating thereafter - because finally you have some choices.
************************************************xxxx 'Repetition and forced attention are very conducive to the induction of a trance.' - Steve Hassan 'Because your mind troubles you, give it to me. It won't trouble
me.' - Maharaji With some exceptions, premies as a group are low achievers. The reason, of course, is that premies' ideas about Maharaji and Knowledge depreciate the value of all other endeavour. Whether
it's stated or not - and it isn't, thesedays - doing 'other things' just doesn't cut the ice that 'achieving the purpose of this life' does. So people who could be flying jets or creating successful businesses end up
spending a lot of time sitting under blankets with their fingers in their ears. And one person who spends very little time with his fingers in his ears ends up flying jets. If you speak to any long-term PAMs - e.g.
John Miller (captain of M's old yacht) or Randy Prouty - they'll tell you than M cannot not do events. He adores being adored. There's only one Major Achiever in the world of Knowledge - not 10,000. And
there's only one person at a major event who is completely comfortable in the knowledge of who he is. Everybody else is shooting for the false moon he has installed in a false sky, and can never know rest.
********************************************xx 'Whatever deceives seems to produce a magical enchantment.' -Plato I know others have said there were no financial improprieties in EV. I can only speak from my own
experience - which is that EV was substantially a cash organisation until the 1990s. Money raised from the membership for Maharaji's personal use - e.g. a new quarters at the 'Windmill' area of Amaroo, costing
several hundred thousand dollars - is still kept off the books. Assuming one could keep Raja Ji's drink-sodden hands off them, the cash proceeds from darshan lines were commonly flown around the world in the
suitcases of x-rated premies, till they found their 'home' in M's coffers. I'm talking two, three, four hundred thousand US dollars at a time. These poor couriers would freak out if hunger forced them to take out
$10 to buy a meal. They also suffered serious anxiety as they neared their destinations, customs and immigration regulations being what they are. Raja Ji still pursues his traditional role of schmoozing, wining,
dining and flattering rich premies to extract $$$ from them for the family coffers. This is not always successful, as some of these people have class, and Raja Ji is a rather gauche character. Having seen things
from the inside, I'm still kind of shattered that thousands of innocent premies around the West think this thing is about Knowledge, love and the rest. It's a family business, and it's about money. Every recent
Indian guru is the same: Sai Baba, Mukhtananda and Osho all trade(d) their spiritual credentials (which, like Maharaji's, are mostly faked anyway), and a convincing stage act, for cash payments from westerners
who see themselves as spiritually impoverished. Money is the main game, but these people also get side-benefits from devotees, such as sex: Sai Baba gives oral sex to adolescent boys in the guise of some
ceremony; Mukhtananda was well-known for raping adolescent girls in the guise of transferring 'shakti'; and Osho (a.k.a. Shri Rajneesh) would bonk anything that moved - telling his credulous followers that sex
and enlightenment were more or less the same thing. Most of the above tolerate(d) abusive sexual behaviour by their lieutenants - most frequently child sexual abuse. Sound familiar? On the home front, the
thing that concerns me most - as both a very-recently-ex-EV international organizer and as a human being - is the sexual antics of the instructors. The sexual frustration of the instructors is not something (thank
God) I've experienced firsthand - but it is a kind of epidemic. Numerous premie women I know are molested, propositioned, pursued and worse by instructors, in many countries. Because these guys - many of
whom I've known since the early 1970s - have never grown within a normal relationship, their approach to women now is highly dysfunctional and dishonest. I can't bring myself to name individuals - doing so
would tarnish some of EV's brightest lights, of longest-standing. And they're mostly still my friends. We all got each other into the M cult - and now we're forming networks and giving support as, one by one,
each individual is plucked out of it. So even the sexually abusive instructors - and that's the majority of those I know - are people I'd like to help out the door, rather than simply attack and discredit them. Having
said that, this policy will change and names will be named, and incidents described in all their shameful, gory detail, if these practices continue. (And believe me, I know so many of the heartbroken women
involved that I will definitely find out.) Too many women have been damaged by these serial womanisers/gropers/molesters (who lie to their current woman about their affairs with women in other 'ports') to
allow this 'epidemic' to continue. This is not abuse a la Jagdeo - but it is playing with people's feelings in a callous, chronic way. I hope it's really clear that I'm going to blow the whistle on these people if this
doesn't change. I don't want to hurt anyone - but at the same time unless these guys start to grow a bit, they'll continue hurting innocent, vulnerable girls all over the planet. And there's none so vulnerable as a
woman who believes in the myth of 'Maharaji's instructors'. I should make it equally clear that I'm not talking about equal, consensual, honest relationships - e.g. Sampuranand and Bai Ji. And I'm not talking
about some occasional on-the-road flings - we've all had those. I'm talking about using women as sexual playthings, and serial dishonesty, Maharaji-style. People around Maharaji (PAMs) get into power trips
and bullying - the well-known 'mini-Maharaji' syndrome. Many PAMs drink a lot (or are alcoholics), just like the Master: throwing up on the way back to your tent after a night drinking with M around the campfire
is not exactly unknown. Similarly, just like Maharaji, some instructors have misused their status for sexual gain. At the very least these instructors need to get counselling on how to form normal relationships.
Ideally this counselling will take place post-K - because the inherently dysfunctional master-student relationship is the fertile soil from which dysfunctional approaches to women grow. A post-Knowledge setting
for this kind of change is important, not only because Knowledge tends to replace/reduce normal growth, but because EV will never act against this sort of behaviour. The system thus encourages it. When
reports are made (which is rare), EV takes no action. The only exception was when an instructor had to be spirited out of Australia some years ago following a sexual incident: otherwise EV's record is of no
response, no action, no attempt to assist the women involved, and no attempt to change the climate which gives rise to the incidents. (In recent years policies have been written on sexual harassment. Believe
me, they don't apply to M or the instructors.) M's attitudes to women don't help much either. He once told a group of us at Amaroo that he wanted to gather all the girls with 'good tits' at one end of the property,
and all the girls with 'bad tits' at the other end. In his public satsangs he frequently uses the example of when 'you come home from a hard day's work and your wife doesn't have dinner on the table in time' and
the like. I'm not wild about PC myself, but this sort of thinking surely belongs in the 1950s. I've learned recently from a PAM friend that the closest inner circle of PAMs - e.g. the permanent personal staff, those
in the personal (now known as the 'executive') area at Amaroo, the airliner staff - have been trained to deceive Maharaji's wife in the Monica matter. For example if Marolyn enquires as to whether Monica is
present in Maharaji's campground with him - and she is indeed there - these staff have been instructed to tell Marolyn that she is not. If Maharaji and Monica are staying in a hotel together, Marolyn is to be
given the same line. I was surprised by this at first, as Marolyn has obviously known about Monica for some years. I can only presume that the depth and extent of Maharaji's relationship with Monica is what is
being kept secret from his wife, via these institutionalised deceptions. It doesn't paint a pretty picture of Maharaji - but it makes the inner sanctum staff look even worse, IMO. It's a stark illustration of how one's
values can deteriorate when one is focussed on the 'greater good' of keeping the Living Master. Such training also furthers the climate of deceit about this relationship. Even until the mid-1990s, Monica was
telling me, when she entered an area where M was, that she was joining him to 'show him the latest videos' from Visions. As if everyone didn't know. The deceit - sorry, 'confidentiality' - is pervasive: the Monica
thing is just the most visible example. The Indian premies, for instance, don't know that Maharaji eats meat, drinks and smokes - let alone that he has selected premie women from the audience for his sexual
use. It would be a huge cultural leap for them to accept him if they found this out. Most would leave. For this reason Maharaji's lifestyle is kept top secret in India. Even in the West, no Indian premies (other
than x-rated ones like Sampur) are allowed to do service in the personal area or Maharaji's kitchen, specifically because of the effect that learning of Maharaji's lifestyle would have on them.
****************************************xxxxxx 'Today's cults know how to effectively implant vivid negative images deep within members' unconscious minds, making it impossible for the member to even conceive
of ever being happy and successful outside of the group. When the unconscious is programmed to accept the negative images, it behaves as though they were true. The unconscious mind is made to contain a
substantial image-bank of all the bad things that will occur if anyone should ever betray the group.' - Steven Hassan By the late 1990s, EPO was starting to crack through the dynamic described by Hassan -
showing just how powerful the Internet is. Premies were reading posts and journeys from people they'd once known and trusted - people who had left Maharaji, and left knowledge, but - unaccountably - had not
turned into rotten vegetables. People started to leave. One of these was the woman assigned by the PR team to monitor the Forum, amusingly enough. To counter the rising problem of EPO, M had spent a
log time trashing the Web - calling it, for example, 'the world wide parking lot'. This didn't work: premies got wired as much and as enthusiastically as everyone else. So the decision was made by Maharaji in
July '98 to inaugurate an EV website. Mark Winter in the UK was given the task. The publicly stated reason for Enjoying Life was to propagate K and give premies a chance to express gratitude. Maharaji
confided to the group responsible for it that the site's real purpose was to counter the anti-M sites - EPO basically. Latitude was given to Mark W in creating the site - i.e. premies were allowed/encouraged to
diverge from the party-line devotional blather and mention problems they might have had getting their minds around Knowledge, and even a few jokes passed by the censors. That was to give the Enjoying
Life site a bit of the 'realism' or rawness that traditional EV propaganda has usually lacked - and which EPO has in abundance. The Enjoying Life site was basically established as EPO's online competitor. In
October 98, M told me he was extremely pleased with the result: I saw his Net-phobia evaporate overnight. ******************************************** 'The most curious part of the thing was, that the trees and the
other things round them never changed their places at all: however fast they went, they never seemed to pass anything. 'I wonder if all the things move along with us?' thought poor puzzled Alice. And the
Queen seemed to guess her thoughts, for she cried, 'Faster! Don't try to talk!'' Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass EV has nearly come to a halt at the present. Less people have received Knowledge in the
West in the past year than in any year since 1971 - a 30-year low. Currently there is a participation drought throughout the West. People are pulling back, and getting on with their real lives. EV is being run by
some of the old stalwarts, but the future of both the organisation's structure and the personnel who run it is uncertain. For once this is not because of mass burn-outs or M's habit of firing personnel left, right and
center - it's because of a withdrawal of groundtroops. In Australia, the jewel in M's crown, Amaroo is apparently laying off staff, and activty is very low due to lack of funds. It's not clear who's going to be running
the country's organisation overall. This follows a recent move by Derek Harper (instructor), Lee Marges and Catherine Gavigan (organisers) to oust Kay McKinnon (Pacific contact). It was generally believed that
her $50,000+ annual salary could be better spent elsewhere. Kay McKinnon has survived for now, but that status is far from certain for even the middle-term. (A lot of people have been bucking for her to be
booted for years.) Thus no-one down under really knows how to begin planning for the organisation's future. Ironically, all this happens against a backdrop of Maharaji's statement to the rich guys at the Arizona
conference last month that he 'wants the politics to stop'. The politics in EV can never stop, as it's created by imprisoning people's democratic instincts within a top-down theocratic heirarchy: Maharaji, his
family, PAMs, instructors, organisers, groundtroops and church ladies. Thus there will always be tension between instinct, conscience and common sense on the one side, and the uncomfortable, ultimately
inhuman imperatives of the master-student relationship on the other. In kicking against this spirit-shrivelling dynamic in themselves, EV people also kick against each other - for they generally project the
problem outward. Thus other organisers - but not me - are 'petty', 'insensitive', 'manipulative' and 'power-hungry'. In a normal organisation this could be ironed out with psychological growth. In one where the
expansive behind of the Living Master of The Time sits like a lava plug on the volcano of our emotion, self-expression and individuality, it wasn't possible. So EV has seen nearly three decades of revolutions,
changes in style and terminology, trainings, team-building programs, workshops, conferences, mutinies and purges - and everything stays the same. 'Direction is essential for the continuing existence of the
crowd. Its constant fear of disintegration means that it will accept any goal. A crowd exists so long as it has an unattained goal.' - Elias Canetti The politics M is trying to amputate has been endemic to EV for
30 years. It's getting more petty and vicious - not less - as the caliber of those remaining dwindles, and EV's pool of available managerial talent shrinks. The secrecy is getting tighter too. Throughout the West
people are getting really sick of the endless emphasis on 'confidentiality' - i.e. secrecy. In some places people have to sign confidentiality agreements before they can even do service. Managers and local
contacts are starting to feel they're not able to share much with the groundtroops and church ladies any more, and they feel guilty when they do. (When you sin against the government, a corporation or even
your family it's one thing: but sinning against The Living Master an the Whole Purpose of Existence is another.) I wonder how long the loyal Valerio will want to keep cleaning up the psychological messes
created by the unreal relationships we premies have with M. Having been to several of V's trainings, I can vouch that he's a great trainer. But all the trainings, and the 'emergencies' Valerio is responsible for
dealing with, will not do more than deal with symptoms - keep the lid on short-term. The basic dynamic needs to change. People need to create proper lives for themselves in the real world, and more
importantly create proper inner lives for themselves. It's pretty obvious that most people who leave K start 'moving' in their relationships, careers, etc, better than before, when they were in the golden cage. But
maybe the biggest thing is realising that the INNER life is better without Knowledge, and without Maharaji. Cleaner, happier, more even, more concrete. I've been on the phone in recent weeks to old friends
who have done this. Sadly, I cut them off when they did - but now contact has been reestablished it's great. These guys have ended up happy. Those who've stayed have just got more and more stunted. I felt it
in myself till I got out. Look around. EV is a psychic graveyard. And it's not because people have not done enough trainings. ****************************************xxxxx 'The purpose of Newspeak was not only to
provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of Ingsoc, but to make all other modes of thought impossible. It was intended that when Newspeak had been
adopted once and for all and Oldspeak forgotten, a heretical thought (that is, a thought diverging from the principles of Ingsoc) should be literally unthinkable.' - George Orwell, 1984 One of the things I have
found most surprising since leaving is that so few people followed orders to hand in the DLM magazines in the late 1970s. Ex-premies everywhere still have piles of them. The attempt to re-program us away
from our early history - when Maharaji was God, his brothers divine incarnations, and we an elect group more or less guaranteed salvation - was thus a failure. Probably one of the worst aspects of the attempt to
re-write history is the claim by Maharaji and EV that the Indian concepts of the 1970s were promulgated by the mahatmas, and that M had no role in this. In reality, one thing that M aways had direct control
over - even as a teenager - was the activities of the mahatmas and instructors. And of course this is relevant not just to the 'Indian concepts' debate. It's highly relevant to the Jagdeo affair. Even Glen Whittaker,
who hasn't strayed from the reservation in 30 years, believes Maharaji's refusal to deal with the Jagdeo's sexual abuses years ago - when he was given the opportunity - was a grave miscalculation. Both he and
Mark Winter are very pissed at M for this, as they had to pick up the PR mess years down the track - a mess M could have prevented by exercising some responsibility several years ago. Running an 'apologise
and explain' PR exercise for a master who shelters a child molester is hardly the kind of dream service for which these extremely sincere guys joined up at the start of the 1970s. I've known Glen since the early
1970s, and he is a decent, friendly guy. He'll probably be manning the bridge on the good ship EV as it sinks beneath the waves in about 2005, such is his loyalty to M. But he is nevertheless disappointed with
M over this affair. And if Glen's disappointed, you can imagine how others feel. Glen believes that Jagdeo did commit the sexual abuse he is accused of - though he personally didn't know about it before the
revelations of the last two years. Others did, however. Jagdeo's crimes have been known about within EV, and by Maharaji, for more than 20 years. For instance there was a high-level meeting about Jagdeo's
sexual abuse of children in 1980. Jagdeo appeared to have abused the child of a premie (a woman) then living in Florida. The woman was extremely wound up about it, and the instructor Maria Isabella -
among others - was brought in to try and deal with her. Then as now, Maharaji had a very direct control, and a very thorough knowledge, of the activities of his instructors. In fact he controlled this aspect of his
organisation more closely than any other. It's inconceivable that Maharaji was not aware of Jagdeo's activities then. But he chose not to act, beyond having the matter hushed up. The seachange finally took
place when the revelations on EPO became too hard to ignore - especially in the UK. On January 22, 2000, Glen Whittaker wrote an official EV UK communication to Deepak (DUO India chief), informing him
of the basic facts, and inquiring as to Jagdeo's whereabouts. It was realised that the Jagdeo 'problem' had the potential for unraveling things badly in the UK, because Maharaji's fingerprints were all over the
cover-up. The revelations on EPO and the forum re Jagdeo's sexual abuse were the PR emergency of the decade for EV. I think what's happened since then is fairly well-known by people here. I'm fairly sure
the civil action in India was devised as a 'blind' - to pacify critics with the appearance of action, and to reduce the chances of Jagdeo ever having to appear in a British courtroom. Glen wasn't involved in
having the Jagdeo story suppressed in the Express - though he wasn't exactly on the side of the angels either. (When others found out about what Maharaji had permitted to happen, they left the cult - they
didn't stay on to defend the indefensible.) EV's current read on the evil exes is that a kind of impasse has been reached: damage has been done, but there's not much more they can do, with Jagdeo in India.
He'll never be allowed to set foot in the West again of course. The rules of the recent trainings are: 10 second rule conscious respect confidentiality honesty participate unanimous no brain farts no dark thoughts
But the rule underlying all of these - at least the trainings I went to - was RESPONSIBILITY. People who didn't take responsibility for their actions were absolutely stomped on by M. I saw hard-boiled
businessmen stumbling around in the Delhi dust in shock, and non-smokers take up smoking, after some of his temper explosions around the question of responsibilty. People were terrified: it is no exaggeration
to say that some shook from head to foot. Many probably thought the sky was about to fall in. How does that all square with sitting on his hands since the late 1970s, when he was first informed of Jagdeo's
criminal activities? Maybe Perfect Masters are somehow exempt from preventing child sexual abuse, because they have their eye on some larger karmic scene which is invisible to the rest of us? Believe that
and you may as well believe in the tooth fairy. On a recent Delhi trip, I chatted with Jagdeo in the IOC, in the centre of the ashram - where we were both staying. He is not a 'sick old man' living in retirement in
an Indian village. He is sprightly, reasonably fit-looking, and till recently at least had access to the centre of things in DUO India - mayb

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:53:08 (EDT)
From: got a life
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Pam's Memoirs reposted
Message:
What the f.....k were we involved in? It is all too unbelievable. If there is a God, it would be comforting to know that we will be somehow protected from falling into such a BIG HOLE ever again. All I ever did was 'go to satsang', and look where it lead .......... to an association with all of this stuff. Your research and insight is phenomenal. Thank you.
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:05:32 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Second half
Message:
He is not a 'sick old man' living in retirement in
an Indian village. He is sprightly, reasonably fit-looking, and till recently at least had access to the centre of things in DUO India - maybe still does. He also still has access to children - was indeed spotted fondly
patting one in the IOC in the last year or two - though I have no evidence that he is sexually abusing same, and hopefully this is unlikely after all the bad publicity. The Jagdeo affair is a towering example of
the corruption that's set into the heart of what I believe to have, once, been a genuine attempt to help the world. That M is so central to Jagdeo's crimes continuing is, alone, reason enough for me to leave.
There isn't a rationalization in the world that excuses complicity in raping children. That my friends continue to defend M in this respect seriously stretches my respect for them.
****************************************xxxx 'The disciple is unworthy; modestly he sits at the Master's feet and guards against having ideas of his own. Mental laziness becomes a virtue; one can at least bask in the
sun of a semi-divine being. He can enjoy the archaism and infantilism of his unconscious fantasies without loss to himself, for all responsibility is laid at the Master's door.' - C.G. Jung 'Guru does not deal with
us as father or as friend, but as children. As children.' - Maharaji The first seed of doubt was sown in my mind in 1997. In LA toward the end of that year, Maharaji was depressed for two or three months - right
through till Christmas. I was quite shocked by this. Things had upset M at the end of the 1997 Amaroo event - like a cow getting into his private campground and shitting in front of his doorway. Everybody
certainly heard about that: 'I almost stood in it!' (Not a cow shits without...) Also he was stopped by some security person on a road for not having a pass. Finally, the schizophrenic son of two premies dropped
some acid, then wandered into his campground for a chat at the doorstep to the divine pent. M's radio calls to the security personnel were misunderstood, and people raced all over the property - except to
where the problem was. His final radio call was pretty testy. But the thing that made him the most pissed was an article that appeared in an Aussie newspaper. I think it said that he was a rich guru who did
rather well financially out of his devotees, or words to that effect. Not something you could actually argue with. He was really angry at the PR team for not somehow stopping that article from appearing. And I
remember thinking - before I could censor myself in the time-honored premie way: 'Why doesn't he alter his own behavior if he wants to stop articles like that from appearing?' The article just described the
luxury homes, the jet, etc, as far as I can recall. All of these things are M's lifestyle choices - not things invented by a malicious journalist. Naturally the PR team accepted the spears in the chest, and various
post-mortems were done to ensure they performed better next time. NB: After this episode of divine depression in 1997, I logged onto the forum, and it definitely caused some drips. But there was so much
invective here that I decided it was safer and saner in EV. (Which is really saying something.) The forum is still too abusive and unsafe for many people to belong. Several have left the forum for the same
reason. There is a frequent tendency for angry and abusive people to dominate the debate, to shout down those who disagree with them, and to spray the forum with dozens of posts. On balance, the forum is a
great boon to the ex world. But unless the above problem is somehow redressed, it will never attract a wide variety or large number of exes. ****************************************xxxxx 'Who is Guru? The highest
manifestation of God is Guru... Remember, Guru is God. Bigger than God. Bigger and bigger than God... So, see that if you want to give devotion, give it to Guru. You will find that Guru is the Supremest of
all. It is said that 'In a day I should bow many thousands, thousands, thousands, thousands, millions, millions and millions of times to Satguru.' Such a high thing, such a high power, has come. I was seeking for
God, but God has come in body! What can be higher and holier than that?' - Maharaji 'Who says I am not under the special protection of God?' - Adolph Hitler It's fairly well-known that the people around
Maharaji tend to be heavy-drinking and competitive, and to engage in internicine warfare. (They even joke about it themselves.) They're also frequently ill physically. Indeed most of the half-dozen people
closest to M are physical wrecks. I think a lot of this comes from the chronic fear in which PAMs live - fear of displeasing the superior power in person. The majority of people who have been in Maharaji's
company for prolonged periods no longer acknowledge him as their master. The 'loyal' exceptions - e.g. Marolyn, Monica, Sampur - generally have an economic or power benefits to keep them in the fold
longer-term. ****************************************xxxxx 'When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find
the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've ever met, and then you learn that the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished,
and all of this sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true! Don't give up your education, your hopes and ambitions, to follow a rainbow.' - Jeanne Mills, former member of the People's
Temple. At the recent event down at Amaroo, there were serious financial losses from a malfunctioning credit card system - people's purchases didn't register. In the months before the event there was a premie
revolt over the huge registration fees. Not long before the event only a few hundred had registered. Panic set in, and Padarthanand was sent on the road to explain how the fee wasn't mandatory after all(!)
Thereafter, a large number of people were admitted for free. The upshot is that the Amaroo finances are not in good shape. Some of the premies whose loans and mortgages support its existence are getting a
bit sweaty-palmed. The official story on the 2001 event is that it was all sweetness and light. But the usual brawls went on. Most of the tent-erecting team mutinied before the event, because of a 'fascist'
manager. (It could have been 1974.) The manual workers, without whom the event wouldn't have happened, were kicked off the site at event time, as usual, which caused lots of bad feeling. Probably they'll all
swallow it, and come back next year for more. Then complain again when the predictable happens. Serious intra-managerial disputes lingered on from the Sept 2000 fundraising event, where several
relationships melted down amid that event's howling dust-storms, especially in the front-of-house area - which has always been a major source of potential revenue, thus the importance of cohesion there.
Attending the Sept '00 fundraiser, the thing I enjoyed most was the bar at night - watching Yoram work the room (that guy should work for the GOP) and catching up with old friends. Valerio didn't get the
respect during the day (the training) that he gets from poorer, community premies: these guys are rich, and aren't used to being patronized and belittled. He got put in his place a couple of times - though the
training as a whole was fun and educational. Now, a year later, the defections of higher-level managers - some of them from K and M altogether - have left thinned-out upper EV echelons, and people are
doing senior jobs who would not have been considered five years ago. There have been worried discussions about the quality of the folks who are now in quite senior managerial positions.
********************************************x 'A striking expression, with the aid of a small amount of truth, can surprise us into accepting a falsehood.' - Vauvenargues I'd guess that the disgraceful CAC site was
M-approved, simply because every major venture of premies without exception is M-approved. (Not a penny drops...) A PR friend told me that the American premie writer Scott Ritter (he's currently hanging out
down under I think) was deputized by the international team, earlier this year, to help come up with an online antidote to EPO that used 'radical new thinking'. Scott, I gather, was stymied by this. How could
you shoot down so many well-attested facts? I woud surmise that CAC was born out of this frustration. Personally I think Scott is too nice to have created CAC, but the fact that he was put on the case this year
suggests that an offical concern about EPO had reached sufficient heights for radical action to be taken - by someone. And taken it was. One reason CAC was pulled, I would guess, was that it was causing so
much disgust even among the senior EV managers. Giving away exes' family's addresses, and tarring exes as pedophiles, is about as low as it gets: even the brainwashed have standards. The big-eating
Frenchman would have kept this operation under the tightest of wraps, were it an officially sanctioned one. Even most of the PR team probably wouldn't have been told it was sanctioned by M - let alone
anyone else. All the above re CAC is speculation - though not unreasonable speculation. It certainly fits with EV's pro-active pattern on the Internet since EPO began, of countering it. First came the large
technical task of 'influencing' search engines so that search words like 'Maharaji' and 'Elan Vital' brought up the official sites first and the anti ones last. That job was done by an Australian techie in the late
1990s, and took him many months. Then Enjoying Life. Then Life's Great - which reversed the original policy of censoring premies. CAC kind of fits with a developing pattern.
****************************************xxxxx 'A morality based solely upon the tenuous thread of religious mythology is only effective for a comparatively primitive mind, through which God is invested with magical
parental powers of punishment and reward. As people in general become emotionally healthier, more able to individuate from their parents, the gods become divested of their power to control.' - Robert
Godwin As we grow away from this old, unhealthy parental relationship, I hope we exes can also get away from an adversarial relationship with premies. Their sins were till recently ours, and their blindness was
ours too. A master-student dynamic distorts everything below it, but you don't see that when you're in it. An exhausted housemother falls asleep in the meditation room, and someone yells at her. A rich boy
from Hardwar who got very lucky with the Western zeitgeist wants another Maserati, so premies forego things they and their children need to buy it for him. Someone commits suicide in the ashram, and the
premie doctor fakes the death certificate. Not things people would normally do - but a cult provokes deep, strange loyalties, and 'abnormal' becomes normal. That's what a cult is, pretty much. We lived within
this strange paradigm too. And accepted it, and propagated it to others. I think our task is to support each other in getting out, just as we supported each other on the way in, and for the duration. I strongly feel
that we're all in it together: some have manned the lifeboats, and some have even rowed well clear of the sinking ship. But others are still in the ballroom listening to the band; and others still are fast asleep in
their staterooms. But everybody is leaving, one way or another. It's a co-operative venture. We owe it to the church ladies, and even to the Glens and Valerios, to make it that way. If circumstances had been
slightly different, they might be 'out' - building EPO, securing the safe ground for us to step on - and we might still be the front row with the arti trays, like those guys at Amaroo this year - pledging undying love
to the womanizing, alcoholic Californian multi-millionaire whom we'd persuaded ourselves was the most important person on Earth - in blissful ignorance of the impending revival of the self we'd been taught
to despise.
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:07:23 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Sorry about lack of formatting
Message:
The archiving facility here appears to wipe out paragraph breaks.

Also, sorry about being behind with the archiving. I'll try to catch up this week.

John.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:42:21 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: At least the FA is vigelant
Message:
The supressor of free speech. An element of the establishement. Down with FA, long live the spammers :)
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:09:45 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: I've sold out
Message:
Well, everyone has a price, I guess. But it's rogue elements like Jim (a forum plant, btw) who keep trying to steer the conversation away from the Lard and onto the maya.
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 23:13:42 (EDT)
From: barney (puppet of eDrek)
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: where's my 10%, gerry?
Message:
Come on, man! Didn't I show you everything I knew about being the living webMaster?
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:16:50 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: I've sold out
Message:
Am actually surprised to see this thread is still here. And I do agree, Jim is a forum plant, but does that mean that I can post on bin layden without having my thread locked?
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 14:06:14 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: I'm vegeland, too [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:40:22 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: So what? Now religion's taboo too?
Message:
What's going on, Gerry? Did you actually expect that that article showing how even bin Laden and the Taliban aren't strict enough for 'real' Islamic extremists would somehow lead to a big argument or something? How?

Naw, you're trigger happy on that lock button, Gerry. That's not good.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:06:29 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too?
Message:
Jim, this is the first lock since D-Day. Not exactly trigger happy behavior.

So this is about religion and not politics? I can unlock threads as easily as lock them so all you have to do is ask. Personally, I think this discussion should go to Anything Goes Too. This place is reserved for discussion about maharaji cult-related issues. Besides, Bin Laden and Taliban are fightin' words. I'm not goin' there again.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 23:30:15 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hurrah for Gerry !
Message:
I know I waded in here with political talk when i was shocked and stunned after the 11th, but for what it is worth I am happy that this place has at last found an FA who isnt going to be pushed around.

Hurrah for Gerry.... However my dilemma now is the same as that which faces every Vicar on Sunday... and every Premie who ever graced the satsang chair...how to to make a rambling sermon appear seemlessly On Topic.

so what I would like to say is this...

for me, personally, its like, ... you know... this feeeling..

That being FA here must be a difficult task, our Lord having washed the brains, it seems that we will cling to every thought and scrap of righteousness in order to assert ourselves in reaction to the pattern of thought which he set up... a pattern of 'Not being'

'Not being' was our bliss and our choice, and our vulnerability. We were never the issue.. and our personality was only ever going to get in the way.

He was the good stuff, Knowledge was the good stuff... we were the sin riddled post-Christian carriers of 'truth' - the unworthy vessels of a great and eternal light.

Mere hosepipes for the bathwater that the living Lord was dishing out...

it now seems that all the time, the hosepipes, our very personalities were precious... were the 'babies' we so willingly hurled into oblivion.

precious or not, our personalities for some are all we now have... we are like infants who for years had been given industrial strength enemas... and is it any surprise we are finding it difficult to walk in a straight line ?

In keeping this place on topic, gerry is stopping us from wandering off. He guides us, protects us... and cos we are full of shit now... he is our nappy.

Long may he serve

This may read cynically... but i am just having fun .. its late and I cant sleep :0)

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 03:57:25 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Baby enema ceremonies?
Message:
Loaf wrote:

Mere hosepipes for the bathwater
that the living Lord was dishing out...
it now seems that all the time,
the hosepipes, our very personalities
were precious... were the 'babies'
we so willingly hurled into oblivion.

precious or not, our personalities
for some are all we now have...
we are like infants who for years had been
given industrial strength enemas...

I propose that Loafie's words become the official song for all Baby Throwing Festivals. It should be sung to the tune of "You are my mother and you are my etc..."

My only concern is that some people take it too literally and start expecting Baby Colonic Irrigation Ceremonies.

Also, Loaf, you call Gerry ''our nappy.'' I think it's a bit rude because it means we poop on him. Now perhaps you should call him ''our nanny who puts nappies on us so we don't poop on the floor.''

But I enjoyed the serious bits too i.e. the ''not being.'' On the nail.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:18:08 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too?
Message:
Gerry,

It IS about religion. It's about fanaticism. It's about craziness in the name of religion and ALL of that is relevant to this little cult we were in. Did you even read it? It's a hoot. A scary one, but a hoot nonetheless. (In fact, you should take a look a the picture on the linked website itself. Better than the Onion).

Forget about the political aspect of all this, it's as if world events have thrown the whole issue of faith and fanaticism wide open. The whole world is now considering, amongst other things, some of the stuff we've necessarily been talking about for years. I don't see how blocking that discussion is good or necessary. I mean, it's not as if there are really two sides to this, not like the hot and heavy political issues we got bogged down in.

You know, another article I thought of showing people was the one in the link about this conference for world religious and political leaders on world peace hosted by none other than rev. Moon. There's a political aspect to it, sure, but there's also this whole cult side to the story.

I think that people have the general point that we shouldn't allow ourselves to bog down in divisive political discussions. But there IS a world out there and, like I say, much of what's happening resonates issue-wise here.

What do you think?
[ The Moonies host a picnic ]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 17:23:30 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Jim
Subject: Re: So what? Now religion's taboo too?
Message:
I think I agree with you Jim. Cults and religous fanatacism are very much on the agenda. In India 1972 I remember having a violent argument with a WPC premie who maintained 'there will have to be bloodshed' (to spread this knowledge). He was arguing along those dangerous lines 'the end justifies the means'.
I knew premies who would literally do anything for M.
I think the cultic/religous complexion of the war is suitable fodder for this forum. 'Ideals are brutal things'.
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:38:52 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What do I think?
Message:
I think you are very persuasive. Faith and fanaticism IS what Rawat's cult is all about. But I can foresee the same divisive debate happening like deja vu all over again, though.
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 18:00:37 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: What do I think?
Message:
I think you are very persuasive. Faith and fanaticism IS what Rawat's cult is all about. But I can foresee the same divisive debate happening like deja vu all over again, though.

So, basically what you're saying is that it's divisive debates that are taboo, according to your ad hoc criteria. Fine. Just want to be clear.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 21:05:17 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: It's more like ad hic (sic)
Message:
So, basically what you're saying is that it's divisive debates that are taboo, according to your ad hoc criteria. Fine. Just want to be clear.

--Scott

Scott, I was was responding to Jim's statement:

I think that people have the general point that we shouldn't allow ourselves to bog down in divisive political discussions. But there IS a world out there and, like I say, much of what's happening resonates issue-wise here.

I think we are working towards some consensus here, and I would like to see it develop organically. Your input is valued and I hope we can communicate as equals.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:18:18 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: It's more like ad hic (sic)
Message:
I don't know what process you're contemplating as producing a 'consensus' but I don't see one. I see attempts to discuss this resulting in locked threads, threats to block, deleted posts, etc. Gerry, I just don't trust you... and never will. Once the process is out of your hands we may be able to discuss things objectively, but this is now, and then is then.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:34:14 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: bin Laden a liberal wet!
Message:
Did you actually expect that that article showing how even bin Laden and the Taliban aren't strict enough for 'real' Islamic extremists would somehow lead to a big argument or something? How?

Well, some damned Brit might suggest that perhaps killing bin Laden is a Bad Idea as it would just make room for those who consider him too soft to move in on his turf.

I want to talk about this stuff, but (fwiw) I also agree it's best to do it at AG2. Good discussions do take place there (I think Scott T and Salam went six rounds with only 29 boofheads and 723 patronising putdowns).

Why not keep wartalk to AG?

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:38:55 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: PS
Message:
I can't even read locked threads. Nothing comes up in this browser. Any chance of posting the link over at AG too?

Please?

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:12:53 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: You need IE to read locked threads
Message:
Netscape can't do it.
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:45:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Tell you what
Message:
Here's the URL. Read it and then tell me this isn't a) one of the funniest things you've ever read in the past month and b ) relevant in the same way that all cult stuff is:

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/10/21/stiusausa02030.html?

I just read it again, this time out loud to Laurie. It is SOOOOOO funny! It reads exactly like an Onion article but it's for real.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 01:23:48 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just like the Onion ~) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:52:11 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Excessively liberal' LOL [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 15:22:18 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Posted at Anything Goes Too [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 12:57:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Funnier than fiction
Message:
Don't forget to look at the moderate extremist's picture. This shit is crazier than the Onion

ULTRA ZEALOTS:

If you think Bin Laden is extreme - some Muslims want to kill him because he's soft

Nicholas Hellen

IF YOU thought Osama Bin Laden's brand of Islamic fundamentalism was as extreme as it gets, think again. A rival group of Muslim terrorists exists which regards him as an infidel who has sold out.

Bin Laden's declaration of war against the West has failed to impress Takfir wal-Hijra, an ultra-hardcore group that has won a reputation for unbridled savagery in Egypt and Sudan.

Its fundamentalism is so extreme that members have embarked on killing sprees in mosques against fellow Muslims in the belief that a pure Islamic state can be built only if the corrupt elements of the last one are wiped out.

In this they see Bin Laden and his followers as pragmatists who are 'excessively liberal'. To drive the point home, four of its members pulled up in a pick-up truck outside his house in Sudan in 1995, spraying it with bullets in an effort to kill him.

Ironically, militant Muslims in Britain who have been happy to endorse Bin Laden's attacks on western society are indignant at the prospect of the Takfir threatening them.

'They are nothing but a bunch of extremists,' said Abu Hamza, the claw-handed radical preacher at Finsbury Park mosque in north London, who outraged public opinion in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center by describing them as an act of 'self-defence'.

Hamza, who has encouraged young Muslims to take up a jihad against the West, is concerned about the Takfir's irrational aggression.

'They kill Muslims,' he said last week. 'These people create nothing and destroy everything. It is not right to be as harsh as they are. These people want to be judges and executioners.'

Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, who runs Al-Muhajiroun, an organisation devoted to creating an international Muslim superstate, to include Britain, was equally upset about Takfir last week.

'They are fanatics,' said the man whose organisation, based in a Tottenham industrial estate, has denied endorsing attacks on Tony Blair after the bombing of Afghanistan started. 'They cannot be compared to Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, who have many eminent scholars behind them.'

Takfir was founded by Shukri Mustafa, a member of the Muslim Brotherhood, who was imprisoned in the mid-1960s and joined the radical disciples of Qutb while in prison. He built the Takfir - the full title of which means 'repentance and isolation' - on his release in 1971.

Mustafa was executed after he kidnapped and murdered an Egyptian government minister in 1978. In the early 1980s President Hosni Mubarak attempted to crush his terrorist group by arresting 350 suspected members, but many escaped into the deserts of north Africa.

During its 30-year existence, the Takfir has repeatedly attacked fellow Muslims as part of a drive to cleanse the Islamic world in preparation for building a new and pure Islamic state. Last December, one of its adherents shot 23 worshippers in a mosque of the pacifist Ansar al-Sunna sect, near the Sudanese capital of Khartoum.

Takfir fanatics have carried out two other attacks on Ansar's mosques since 1996, apparently because they disagree with its peaceful approach.

According to the Takfir's twisted logic, the failure of existing Muslim regimes to impose full sharia - Islamic law - means they and their citizens are rebelling against God's sovereignty. While scholars accept an individual's right to interpret the Koran, leaving the ultimate judgment to God, Takfir denounces all but those who copy the behaviour of the prophet Muhammad as infidels and promises to kill them.

Takfir has attempted to justify its violence by claiming it is necessary to demolish Islam before reconstructing it in a purer form.

Its hostility to Bin Laden first erupted in Sudan in the mid-1990s. Bin Laden settled there in 1991 after fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. He spent five years in the country building businesses and his Al-Qaeda terrorist organisation before being expelled in 1996.

A year before he left he was attacked at his home in Khartoum by four Takfir members who drove up in a Toyota Hilux pick-up at about 4pm brandishing Kalashnikovs. They were on their way home, having killed 12 Muslims at a local mosque.

Eyewitnesses say they opened fire on the house and another occupied by Bin Laden's fighters, but his guards were alert and fought back. Four of them died, as did three of the four Takfir members. The fourth was captured by the Sudanese police and hanged.

'After that action, Bin Laden closed the road,' said Amar Osman, a local man who witnessed the attack. 'Trenches were dug at either end of the street, closing it to all vehicles - and after midnight even pedestrians were stopped, questioned and searched.

'A partial barricade also went up on the side street that entered the block opposite Bin Laden's house, reducing access to a single lane. You could get in but not out.'

Six years on, the feud may now be resumed because the Takfir are said to be 'angered' at Bin Laden's leadership of a 'compromised jihad'. One senior Sudanese government source, familiar with the previous attempt to kill Bin Laden in Khartoum, said last week: 'They regard him as a sellout. While he concentrates his attention on freeing Saudi Arabia of American bases, the Takfir think that everything in contemporary Muslim society is corrupt and should be destroyed.'

A Whitehall source with close knowledge of the Takfir said: 'They do not regard the Taliban as representative of Islam. They do not take kindly to religion being hijacked for political purposes.'

Additional reporting: Soheb Panja
[ No, this isn't a joke ]

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 07:04:08 (EDT)
From: Tcheuki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: where??
Message:
the hell are Pam's memoirs now.
Can't find them anymore
The link jmk put on the french forum does'nt work either..
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:47:53 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Tcheuki
Subject: They have gone inactive
Message:
You'll have to wait until they are archived on EPO, unless someone thought to copy it and save it. Unfortunately, I just checked and I did not. Hopefully someone will see your plea and repost it. The archives only go to September 8th, at present.

So a little patience and you will get them eventually.

Francesca

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:03:44 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Can anyone repost it?
Message:
I thought I had saved it to a Word .doc but I couldn't find it. Anyone else have it? Start a new thread if you repost it.
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 16:39:33 (EDT)
From: tcheuki
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: thank's for your nice and quickly answersf
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:16:20 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: All
Subject: CW please respond
Message:
These verbose slanging matches between yourself, Jim, John T, and Pat C are pretty tedious and at times childish. What I would like to hear is your FACTUAL rebuttal of what was said in the letter from PAM or , for instance, the evidence of Michaels Dettmers and Donner. Not more blanket statements but stand up and face the issues Mr Cat. I would have a lot more respect for you then.
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 09:12:26 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Re: CW please respond
Message:
(1) The supposed 'revolt' at Amaroo did not occur.That's pure fabrication
(2) The majority of transactions there were Credit card based. What did the mules carry,Amex and Diner card slips?
(3) The roles attributed to people were incorrect. Eg The 'organisers', whatever that term means,were actually instructors.
It was palaver and it doesn't deserve anything but a slagging.
This is not a level playing field.So rather than be drawn into some long drawn out argument, there's three little gems for you to ponder Tim. The rest was just as cocked up and confused. As for the D men? Supposedly their statements are separate to Pam's. But my guess is that when you start telling the Chief Executive how to run the show AND his life , you are likely to end up as popular as a pork chop at a barmitvah.You may even find yourself looking for a new career.
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 14:07:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: What a scaredy cat you are!
Message:
Don't want to get 'drawn into some long draw out argument'?

You seem downright afraid to. That's not the usual attitude of someone with a winning hand to play.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 10:34:12 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: CW
Subject: Re: CW please respond
Message:
Many thanks for that CW. AT least it was a response to a few issues and ones which I am not competent to quibble with. I also see your point about advisors to the CEO not being popular. BUT what I am interested in is your take on these sort of things:
1. M's belligerent behaviour to those around him...I have seen it first hand (most unpleasant), Tantrums, autocratic, behavior and downright rudeness.
2. M's lack of the practice of K himself
3. M's drinking and womanising
4. M's lack of action on Jagdeo.
5. M's hit and run cover up
6. M's unhappy state of mind and obvious discontent (where is this beautiful world of K?
7. M's inability to successfully run an organisation.
8. M's revisionism; plain lies as to what he had said he was in earlier times and shifting the buck to his poor followers
9. M's grossly extravagant lifestyle and money making activities
10. M's lack of success in 'spreading the Knowledge' despite enormous fund raising avowedly for that exprss purpose. We all coughed up over the years.
11. I could go on and on about my own objections to what he is peddling but they would be personal discriminations, suffice it to say that I don't for one moment accept his inherited belief in the concept of a 'Perfect Master' or even spiritual teacher. In my book he has a lot to learn along with ourselves!

So, I would love to hear your responses to some of these issues that I rank in no particular order but are pretty damning in my book.

Let's not eneter a slanging match BTW
Best
Tim

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 21:02:23 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Re: CW please respond
Message:
Firstly I think it interesting that I told Jim over two years ago that he will catch more flies with honey than vinegar. One of my favorite sayings. But lets look at what you have posed.
I think that for a lot of old time premies Knowledge was a religous experience based around a belief structure. For me that has never been the case.The practice of K is the anchor point.
The physical act of sitting down and spending time on what is there.No expectations . No interpretations.
Because I rejected Religion at an early age I have not expected Maharaji to be some sort of Priest or sage. I simply want to hear from him about K ,that is my link with mim. To date he has served me well in this regard.
This list is an old tactic Pat, but for your benefit I will address it from my personal perspective.
(1) I have seen the whole spectrum of human emotion from M first hand . So what.To me that is fine. He is relatable
(2) I can't comment. I think this is really guesswork on the part of a few people. How could they know unless they actually spent 24 hours in his prescence?
(3) I couldn't care less. It's irrelevant.And frankly it's none of my business
(4)Says the crew here. I disagree.
(5)Dettmers claim? He has quite a few skeletons hanging in his own closet.I think you may find that a coronial report was filed.Do you wish to challenge it?

Generally your issues are based on your new belief structure that you have adopted since you began participating here. My tip to you ?Dump belief structures and savour the moments of your life. You never know how much longer you have to enjoy it.

The real method used here to catch flies is communal web spinning. And there are anumber of big spiders waiting here to suck you in.I should tell you I generally dont allow myself to fly so low as to be caught in the fine sticky gossamer threads on offer here.
Adios

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 20:58:32 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Re: CW please respond
Message:
Firstly I think it interesting that I told Jim over two years ago that he will catch more flies with honey than vinegar. One of my favorite sayings. But lets look at what you have posed.
I think that for a lot of old time premies Knowledge was a religous experience based around a belief structure. For me that has never been the case.The practice of K is the anchor point.
The physical act of sitting down and spending time on what is there.No expectations . No interpretations.
Because I rejected Religion at an early age I have not expected Maharaji to be some sort of Priest or sage. I simply want to hear from him about K ,that is my link with mim. To date he has served me well in this regard.
This list is an old tactic Pat, but for your benifit I will adress it from my personal perspective.
(1) I have seen the whole spectrum of human emotion from M first hand . So what.To me that is fine. He is relatable
(2) I cant comment. I think this is relly guesswork on the part of a few people. How could they know unless they actually spent 24 hours in his prescence?
(3) I couldn't care less. It's irrelevant.And frankly it's none of my business
(4)Says the crew here. I disagree.
(5)Dettmers claim? He has quite a few skeletons hanging in his own closet.I think you may find that a coronial report was filed.Do you wish to challenge it?

Generally your issues are based on your new belief structure that you have adopted since you began participating here. My type to you ?Dump belief structures and savour the moments of your life. You never know how much longer you have to enjoy it.

The real method used here to catch flies is communal web spinning. And there are anumber of big spiders waiting here to suck you in.I should tell you I generally dont allow myself to fly so low as to be caught in the fine sticky gossamer threads on offer here.
Adios

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:29:18 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: CW please respond
Message:
Hi CW
Just got your response but too tired to reply, it's 3.30 a.m. here and I'm just finishing some paintings for a Monday morning deadline. Have printed out your response and will reply soon.
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 06:21:08 (EDT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Tim G
Subject: Re: CW please respond
Message:
Sorry Pat C, you weren't involved in that latest round of catfighting.
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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 13:39:05 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: You're too damn nice, TimG
Message:
I also have tried to talk reasonably with the Pussy many a time but had to give up because I could not get a straight answer to just one simple question: ''What is Catweasel doing on the forum since he obviously isn't having much fun being slagged off by us all the time?''

Actually, Tim, I did enter the last round of Pussy-baiting and seem to have upset Pussy as he said, ''Bye, I'm off to greener pastures.''

Honestly I can't stand being a bitch and would much prefer to kiss and make up as I have with SC/David Roupell/Cerise et al but I think that will not be possible with Pussy until he says who he is and why he is here as SC has. But I don't think he has realized that he would be accepted and respected if only he would be straight with us.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:18:07 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: And your all over the place!
Message:
Pat, I mean't I had better things to do. Your trite insults are like water off a ducks back.......
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:13:47 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Water off a duck's back?
Message:
You mean ''like an oxpecker on a rhinoceros' arse,'' mate. You have got one goddam thick hide. You must be on a mission. Only a crazed cult fanatic could take the punishment that is handed out to you in the name of Allah the unmentionable You Know Who.

Oh, sorry, I forgot: your anonymity is your special protective armor. It makes you invisible and invulnerable.

Yes, and, as long as you're an anonymouse, you will be treated as a joke. See, there is no bad karma attached to treating an imaginary person badly. Real people, yes. ''Do unto others...'' means real people not fakes.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:39:00 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Water off a duck's back?
Message:
ahhh Pat. Now you justify your sour bigotry.You sound like an Afrikaaner explaining away their prejudiced and jaundiced view of 'the Kaffas'
Sorry old man , it does not wash. You know full well you are talking to another human being. Show some manners. Honestly sometimes you behave like Jimmy Cagney at a Beer and Prawn night.
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:01:02 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: CW
Subject: Anonymity is accepted at AA
Message:
Perhaps you belong there not here.

As long as you hide deceitfully like a coward behind a weasel mask you are not a real person. If you don't want to post under your real name then email me and tell me who you are.

I will verify it with my pals in Oz but won't reveal it here. I know every ex who posts under a handle and two premies whose names I have never revealed. I only out cyberstalking cult apologists.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:03:44 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: You tarkin' ta me Archdeacon?
Message:
Na, you would never do something so cruel to me woudya Pats!
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:51:54 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: You tarkin' ta me? No to CW
Message:
Unless....oh no, don't tell me the weasel is also one of your creations. Now I will regret being so nasty.
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Date: Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 03:49:31 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Na, CW is a bit more stable than me
Message:
even though that may sound odd!
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 05:24:16 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Anonymity is accepted at AA
Message:
Then you have no reason to prey on me. See you
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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 13:55:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Prey on Catweasel?
Message:
The cultweasel said: ""Then you have no reason to prey on me.""

Now is this person mentally retarded or an alcoholic paranoid? Is this your forum, CW, or an EXPREMIE forum where it has been made painfully clear to you that you are not welcome and that you are the intruder? Prey does not sanely or willingly enter their predator's dens.

You one slimey piece of work CACweasel. You are the predator. Expremies are your prey. CAC has got your ugly little paw prints all over it and stinks of that nasty stuff you keep spraying around.

You know very well that you are regarded by exes as a predatory cyberstalker and can be seen to be that by anyone with an IQ one size larger than their shoes.

If you spent the time meditating instead of creeping around here you would be much better off.

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 15:24:50 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Prey on Catweasel?
Message:
Fantasy land .Welcome to Pat Disney's Fantasy Land . Where he pictures himself as Tinker Belle and he communes with that screechy raspy voiced cannibal cricket 'Jiminy' You are some piece of work. What a crock.
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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 01:26:32 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: Prey on Catweasel?
Message:
Awww Pat. That is just over the top. I cant keep this up. It is too boring. What on earth goes on between those ears? Give it a rest.
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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 03:54:02 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Cultweasel says it's too boring
Message:
Only a total nutter would spend as much time as you do carefully reading a forum that is so full of boring people.

I wonder if you know exactly how much like a ghost you are - a spirit condemned to haunt the scene of a great tragedy in its life for all eternity and having no relevance to actual living people, usually invisible except for the occassional shriek or moan of suffering.

But I'm not going to get suckered into feeling sorry for you ever again. It makes me feel shafted without grease to fall for your insincere attempts at eliciting a human response when all the while you are an unknowable phantasm.

You're probably not a creep in real life but the whole aura that you exude here is one of contagion. You're like a suppurating pustule leaking a lethal disease - cult mental illness.

Now, I suppose you're going to say you love it when I talk dirty to you. ;)

I need a shower.

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Date: Tues, Oct 23, 2001 at 06:37:00 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Cultweasel says it's too boring
Message:
Gee Pat, I feel like whoopi Goldberg. I'm sure I just saw Patrick....
Actually Pat , I said this thread is boring.



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