Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Oct 21, 2001 To: Oct 29, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


Nigel -:- I have seen M work miracles… -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:27:34 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- A miracle he had Jim join an ashram? [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 08:01:48 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- LOL, Dermot! [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:43:46 (EDT)
__ Suzanne -:- Maharaji's miracles -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:33:46 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- How 'bout this one?? -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:41:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Fat on premies love -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 14:59:17 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- LOL Suzanne. (nt) -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 04:34:02 (EDT)
__ __ nIGEL -:- ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:12:08 (EDT)
__ janet -:- ok-here's mine -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:04:17 (EDT)
__ __ Anonymous -:- Nope not normal.... -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 00:40:27 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: ok-here's mine -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:27:31 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Re: ok-here's mine -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 06:57:19 (EDT)
__ Tonette -:- Lots of Miracles -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 04:22:59 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Lots of Miracles -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 08:43:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Salam, ?????? -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 00:56:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Salam, ?????? -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 07:55:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Thanks, Dermot. nt -:- Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 03:46:05 (EST)
__ salam -:- I saw a miracle once -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:34:22 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- you rminded me of the story -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:23:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Re: you rminded me of the story -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 08:35:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- That's right he was a WPC NT -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 09:44:11 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- Confused about Q and miracles -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 16:55:36 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Interesting questions Bjorn -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:08:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E -:- I hate labelling things Nigel -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 06:05:56 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- I thought this guy was blocked!!!! -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:08:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- gErRy...What about this B person? -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:22:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Yes 'm -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:05:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Thanx your graciousness [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 20:15:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Guess what Nigel -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:27:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mickey the Psychic -:- I knew you would say that, Bjorn -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:32:37 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- I have seen a miracle from Him. -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 15:48:31 (EDT)
__ __ Moley -:- But did he have anything under his Kurta? -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:48:34 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:25:15 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Me too Jethro -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 16:28:49 (EDT)
__ Bai Gosh Ji -:- Re: I have seen M work miracles… -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:36:57 (EDT)
__ __ Tonette -:- OMG!!!!!!! Funny!! nt -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 04:12:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bai Gosh Ji -:- Celstial greetings, Tonette Bai JI -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 15:01:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette Bai Ji -:- I should of known it was you! -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 01:03:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: I should of known it was you! -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 03:48:39 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Oh ye of little faith. -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:58:50 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- Need research volunteers (semi-ot) -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:36:15 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- Right, done that, now this ... (semi-ot) -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:16:24 (EDT)
__ __ Loaf -:- just a thought Nige...-ot) -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:31:42 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Need research volunteers (semi-ot) -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:47:52 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Need research volunteers (semi-ot) -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:50:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ janet -:- mine is firsthand -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:12:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- P.S. Nigel... -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 13:19:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: P.S. -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:06:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Well... -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:40:03 (EDT)

Nigel -:- -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:26:26 (EDT)

Katie -:- About 'Pam' -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 09:12:08 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- Waiting for an aswer at LG Katie nt -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:33:14 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: About 'Pam' -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:59:43 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: About 'Pam' - I agree, John -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:07:54 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Why are you apologizing? -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:49:25 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- exactly -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:38:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Deborah and Salam -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:00:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Re: Deborah and Salam -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 08:47:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Deborah and Salam -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:18:07 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Cheers me dear ! [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:23:19 (EDT)
__ FYI -:- See question at LG -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:03:06 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Thanks Katie -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:01:30 (EDT)
__ __ Katie -:- Hi Joe...coming out -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:25:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- The important thing Katie -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:07:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Dermot and all -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:16:25 (EDT)
__ Vicki -:- Re: About 'Pam' -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 10:13:16 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Selfish 'peace' -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:28:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks Katie... -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:56:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Thanks Katie... -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 13:00:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- You ain't just a'whistlin' Dixie, Marianne [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:57:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Yesss Marianne and thanks Katie -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:05:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- thanks -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:10:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The Real Katie -:- Above is not from me! *Gerry!* -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:50:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: Above is not from me! *Gerry!* -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 21:20:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Anna - just got worried :) [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:41:03 (EDT)

AJW -:- Catweasle, you appear to be avoiding me. -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 06:52:50 (EDT)
__ Vicki -:- Re: Catweasle, you appear to be avoiding me. -:- Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 00:36:11 (EST)
__ CW -:- Re: Catweasle, you appear to be avoiding me. -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 10:43:12 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Cat, you still haven't answered. (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:12:34 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Give it to the Police. -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:43:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Give it to the Police. -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:24:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- No Cat. Not OK. -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:13:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Reality Street -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:14:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, LET's talk about reality -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 14:38:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- OK , WindbagTryThisOn -:- Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 05:40:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- This is ridiculous, Cat -:- Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 16:00:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Bullshit Bullshit Bullshit Cat. -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 04:41:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Forget the Cat, it's ''Weasel''... -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:37:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- At least Cats look you in the eye -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:28:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Duh...SC -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 14:01:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- That's funny... -:- Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 03:21:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Hey Ugly! -:- Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 05:27:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Hey Ugly! -:- Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 15:38:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Hey Jimbo, do I detect a closet cat lover?? -:- Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 03:28:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Forget the Cat, it's ''Weasel''... -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:08:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Inappropriate? -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 04:48:32 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- question for u CW -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 11:45:24 (EDT)

Steve Quint -:- What Do You Call A Man Who Preys -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:37:22 (EDT)
__ Answer: -:- A Preying Man 'tis -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:55:53 (EDT)

Scott T. -:- Hole it Time. (and Nova Special) -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:15:07 (EDT)
__ bill -:- Hole in Time. (and Nova Special) -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:48:55 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Hole in Time. (and Nova Special) -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 09:48:29 (EDT)
__ Bob -:- Re: Hole in Time. (and Nova Special) -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 09:15:28 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- The Charisma Center -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 11:46:34 (EDT)

Deborah -:- On the subject of sarcasm and abuse -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 00:02:04 (EDT)
__ bill -:- Re: On the subject of sarcasm and abuse -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:53:38 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Philosophical dispute with cq -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:54:43 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- Well said that man -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 16:20:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Not guilty! [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:03:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- The case has been dropped -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:34:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's not good enough -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:51:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- It's as good as you'll get -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 16:06:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Let's let it go, Chris [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:32:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- You're a fucking idiot is what you are -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 10:36:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What are my options, Chris? -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 12:58:20 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: On the subject of sarcasm and abuse -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 03:01:32 (EDT)

Lesley -:- setting the record straight -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 20:28:49 (EDT)
__ angry -:- Re: setting the record straight -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 23:24:33 (EDT)
__ __ Aussie premie -:- Re: setting the record straight -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:17:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ SC -:- Evidence please -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 05:36:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- I couldn't care less but -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 07:31:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ Moll of Mole -:- Re: setting the record straight -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 05:01:22 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Why are you being defensive -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 00:11:01 (EDT)

Dermot -:- Belly laughs all round -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 18:11:42 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Arjuna just emailed me !!!!!!! -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 15:32:23 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Arjuna and Jean-Michel's arse. -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:53:10 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Why doesn't he turn the other cheek? [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 13:32:29 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Precisely ! -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 13:06:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Maybe it was the tattoo. -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:58:31 (EDT)
__ one who's been there -:- to you, arjuna: -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 04:59:11 (EDT)
__ janet -:- post his email address 4 us -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 03:50:13 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- You can email him -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 04:02:59 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Arjuna just emailed me !!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 03:40:03 (EDT)
__ __ sivan -:- bigasses -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 04:59:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Re: bigasses -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:26:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yeah, well, how ya... -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:52:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- that's a hard one -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:04:23 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: Arjuna just emailed me !!!!!!! -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:36:24 (EDT)
__ such -:- oh, c'etait mahatma arjuna amin, peut-etre... -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 23:45:33 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- U must admit the lynching was bad, JM -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 21:54:24 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Even more threats from the Arjuna guy!! -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 20:11:25 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Very deranged message -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 21:14:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- No more video events, that's the problem -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 03:59:52 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Even more threats from the Arjuna guy!! -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 20:29:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ don -:- wrong guess, pat! see below -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 05:23:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Arjuna does a good impersonation of you, don -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:50:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ don -:- Re: Arjuna does a good impersonation of you, don -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:53:13 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Arjuna.....glad he's not on my side -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 18:21:52 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- kashatriya is the warrior caste -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 03:32:26 (EDT)
__ Francesca -:- This sounds like the same guy .. -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 18:07:36 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Preoccupied with ASSES???? -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 16:44:14 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- I won't pick up the soap in a shower with him -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 18:57:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mr. Observation -:- Re: give me your tired and sorry asses -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 08:22:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ don -:- Re: I won't pick up the soap in a shower with him -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 05:19:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- your choice of the next is? [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:38:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ don -:- who cares ???? -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:57:53 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Ah what a laugh...another happy premie haha [nt] -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 17:54:16 (EDT)
__ cq -:- Arjuna?!- or the one in the Krishna costume?(nt) -:- Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 15:40:04 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:27:34 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: I have seen M work miracles…
Message:
One of the most memorable assertions on the subject of Prempal's divinity made by a premie visitor came from ‘op’ (= ‘old premie’) a couple of years ago.

She wrote: ‘I have seen M work miracles that would put Jesus to shame’. The context was a serious allegation I had made to the effect that Maharaji, rather than being ‘omnipotent’ in any meaningful sense, possessed not a single power unknown to modern scientist (or conjuror). Not a leaf moves without his first having to blow on it, in fact.

But op went on to say that M was above ‘doing sideshow tricks’, hence the rarity of said phenomena.

Now as a premie I heard many anecdotal accounts of the wonders M had worked. These were, sadly, always second hand. But op’s unambiguous, albeit non-specific testimony looked more like the real thing: a genuine eyewitness confirming she had eyewitnessed at least one magical phenomenon. Possibly several, or maybe many miracles .

Assuming op wasn’t privy to favours denied all other devotees, I have a question for everybody – premie or ex: has anybody here witnessed M demonstrating, say, yogic power #39 or #47…? Maybe just bending the odd tea-spoon…? Anything…?

I am not interested in second-hand stories (eg. of M allegedly saving the life that Indian kid in the darshan-line). Just the mind-blowing close-ups, please. Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 08:01:48 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: A miracle he had Jim join an ashram? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:43:46 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: LOL, Dermot! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:33:46 (EDT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Maharaji's miracles
Message:
It's a miracle that any of those premie women he picked up would have sex with such a slimy, disgusting pervert. You know, the premie women he got Dettmers and others to pick up for him, after which he fucked them, and then dumped them. It's also a miracle he wasn't kicked swiftly in the balls for that.

It'a also a miracle that he was able to fit his fat face into the Krishna crown at Hans Jayanti, 1979.

One time Bob Mishler said Maharaji brought a dead baby back to life in India in 1975. Of course, at the time, Maharaji was hiding out in a hotel room because his family was after him in India, and he apparently couldn't do anything about that.

Look, if Maharaji had any powers, whatsoever, he wouldn't be the meaningless footnote in the history of deluded cults that he is.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:41:03 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: How 'bout this one??
Message:
I frequently heard, especially when I was in Miami, that Maharaji gained weight from all the ''love'' from the premies in the darshan line.

No, he didn't gain weight from all that fatty Indian food, he got fat on love!

Cynthia, who gains weight the old fashioned way, EATING TOO MUCH!

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 14:59:17 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Fat on premies love
Message:
Yep Cynthia , that was put up as an excuse from the early days.

Fat on love hahahaha

and you know what ? I considered it credible hahahahaha.

I'm trying to work out who's the biggest idiot....Maharaji or me?

hmm er ....hmmm ....ME ....he's the multi-millionaire of the deal hahaha

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 04:34:02 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: LOL Suzanne. (nt)
Message:
ha ha hee hee
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:12:08 (EDT)
From: nIGEL
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:04:17 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: ok-here's mine
Message:
I received knowledge in may of 1973on the east coast of the US, total time between first satsang and K session: two weeks. once initiated, i headed back to NYC where i had first encountered premies and satsang, and dove headlong into the NYC scene.
mid july I called my parents for the last of the money i'd saved at a minimum wage job they'd forced me to take in 1970 after highschool, and i bought a ticket to guru puja london with it. we massed in lower manhattan for the buses out to JFK airport, convoyed out there, again massed in the airport, to form our usual cult red-carpet hailing line singing premie songs lining the concourse as maharaji walked thru to board the plane. i didnt know till we got to word to board, that we were flying over to england on the same plane with him.(yes virginia, maharaji flew commercial in those days).

all during the flight i just tried to stay in meditation, believing that having him on board meant it was some kind of special grace if i could just get rid of my mind.
once landed at heathrow, the pilot announced that 'the guru Maharaji, members of his Holy Family, and fully half the passengers were with his DLM and that there was a special reception for them in the concourse, so would everyone please let us exit first.'
i, being the slow sort, chose instead to hang back and let the plane empty out so i could leave last.
as i made my way up the aisle to the door, maharaji turned around in first class and met my eyes.
the world changed.
i floated out into the tunnel feeling weightless in slo mo. a bout 20 feet out, it occurred to me i had no idea where i was supposed to be going, so i halted in the tunnel and stepped back against the wall. my simple minded logic said 'maharaji will know, so I'll wait for him to show me'.

raja ji came out and walked briskly past me. then mata ji and reykha, gesticulating in hindi and chattering away like birds. finally the little man himself appeared, strolling along, bowling along in the finest of relaxed airs,taking in the scenery like he had forever all to himself.
I was unable to move. I stood transfixed, staring at him. I had never met him in person till now, and i was still lost in the trance from meeting his eyes in the plane.
I could not move. I could think TO move. ALL I could feel was worship and Grace. I remember having my hands in pranam and bowing my head in that prayerful way we used to do toward him. I forgot the world.
I also forgot that I was supposed to head somewhere. I would have probably just stood there rooted, till he disappeared, and then found myself lost without a clue in england.

I was totally startled when my feet moved by themselves. I did not command them to. It was not my thought or intent to do anything but remain there.
But Maharaji glanced over at me and the next thing I knew, my feet started walking me to fall in step directly behind him, inches from his back. I remeber being bewitched by the weave of his tobacco-brown suit and the shine of his oiled hair, inches ahead of my nose. He was so uelievably short!! and so broad and stout! it was practically obscene! and i kept internally apologizing to him for having such blatant, unseemly thoughts, which i was certain he could hear . He periodically turned his head and gave me questioning, amused, tolerant looks, that seemed to confirm that he indeed was hearing every last thing i was thinking about him.

When he would do this, I would lower my lashes in obeisance and send out me apologies from my heart--all unspoken, with gestures.

then we came to a moving conveyer belt walkway with rails, like a flat escalator, and had to get on it. with nothing to occupy my concentration in the physical, like, say, balance or pacing, I faded completely out of my body, and started to fall over backwards! I could not stop it. What ever connection I had ever had to that dose of flesh seemed gone, and I realized from far away, with helpless dismay, that I was going to keel over backwards and go down on my ass or my back with nothing to stop it.
Maharaji was in front of me, facing forward, flanked by two self important honchos who were busy running their mouths, competing for his attention. He was letting them each feel like they were
Somebody Big, but in reality he was blowing them off and letting them go at it and didn care.
/There was no way he could have seen me losing my balance, nor heard, because i wasn't capable of making a sound, and he was facing away.

And with no explicable cause, something suddenly pushed me back upright and set me right on my feet again.
there was no one on the belt behind me.
i was past the point of being able to right myself by muscular power. and i had exerted no muscle movement, either.

i came upright and felt my eyes dilate in astonishment. I knew something else had put me back aright. I hadn't been the do-er of it.
At this point, Maharaji turned around so I could fully see his expression, and his gaze cut into me with disgust or rebuke, as if to convey'look sharp! stay on it! you're expected to be impeccable! if you want to accompany me , you have to be together! I won't save you again like that! now ay attention!'
and he didn't turn back around until he was sure I'd got it, loud and clear.

It was a hell of a shock for me. I have never had an episode like that in my life. I never lose my balnce. I'm extremely self aware and controlled about my movements. It's not like me to fall or fade off or forget myself physically. And especially never in public or alongside someone else. The whole experience was utterly out of character and unlike me.
and yes, i was damned thankful i didn't fall on my ass, as it looked certain i should have. theres no elanation for it but that he exerted something to sharply correct me in mid-faint or mid fall or whatever it was.

i am vivdly certain that i did not save my balance of my own effort or accord. to do that, i would have had to throw out a hand, an arm, reach for something to grab,changed my posture. I did nothing of the sort. It felt like being on a hand truck and someone tilting me upright, all in one sweep, from the point of being tilted back and about to fall, to straight up.
And that look he gave me, when my eyes dilated, and i understood what he had just spared me from.

all through my years with him, whenever I mentally spoke to him across a distance--say, a huge parking lot. or in a convention hall. or from a parked car a block away from the residence--he would be looking elsewhere, or doing something, and though i spoke silently, inwardly, only when I did so, hhhe would turn and look directly at me, even though my logical brian told me he couldnt possibly hear me or see me at that distance. but he always did.
one night, after midnight in denver, a carful of us drove into downtown and hid on a side street, hoping to catch a glmpse of him coming out of the kittredge building after hours.
eventually everyone in the car drifted off to sleep, except me. and suddenly in the empty street, I saw him come out, all alone, looking up and down the street in the streetlight, seeing no one and nothing moving, he cut briskly across the pavement, heading for his parked car. And i spoke to him mentally, from in the midst of this packed car of sleeping premies, and be damned if he didn't whirl around and scan the street, real hard, tracking, searching--and then his eyes found mine and held them for a few moments--and then he got in his car and started it up.
i didnt wake the premies. i let him make his getaway in peace. when he was out of sight, i woke everyone up and told them they'd missed him.

now--are these miracles??

theyre sure as hell not normal.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 00:40:27 (EDT)
From: Anonymous
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Nope not normal....
Message:
Maybe normal for a schizophrenic though. Do you happen to be one?
How did you know that your eyes dilated by the way? Perchance did you have a hand held mirror with you or was it that your could see your reflection in the oil slick that Fat Guru called his hair?
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:27:31 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: ok-here's mine
Message:
Before I received K, I went to Florida for the 1975 Hans Jayanti festival. At that point, aspirants could go through the darshan line. I went through and got walloped by a wave of something that brought me to my knees after I was out on the field, watching him give darshan. The set-up for the darshan line was that he was visible (but not the toe kissing). It was a feeling that convinced me he was the LORD.

BUT, since doing a lot of reading on the websites about cult programming, plus Raven about Jim Jones, it's become apparent that the powers these cult leaders imbue upon followers is often contrived to have an effect that seems real, but isn't. In Jones's case, he blantantly faked healings, and created a aura about him that caused something to short-circuit into ecstasy that reinforces the belief system.

The miracles that I was thinking about when Nigel posed the question were those that I and many premies heard second hand, like healing Marolyn when she fell down the stairs and ''knew she broke her back,'' another story about someone (Joe Anctil?) who had a heart attack, and Maharaji brought him back to life with holy water and touch.

I've never personally witnessed any of those miracles. Maharaji always seemed to hint that he performed miracles, but wouldn't do it in public because he wasn't a dog and pony show. Yet the mahatmas, initiators, and pams always seems to come to communities willing to tell about them.

Glad you didn't fall on your ass, though Janet.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 06:57:19 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: ok-here's mine
Message:
Janet,
Your 'experiences'that you described are standard master/devotee stuff experienced by many who have a 'master'.
Try reading David Lane's stuff and try meetimg up with followers of other gurus and see for yourself.

Regards

jethro

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 04:22:59 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Lots of Miracles
Message:
It's a miracle that the US Government never caught premies with their smuggled briefcases of cash fresh from the darshan lines.
It's a miracle Narcotics never busted Maharaji for smoking pot.
It's a miracle that Maharaji never got arrested for drunk driving.
It's a miracle that Maharaji has any followers left at all.
But one of the biggest miracles, by his grace, the one still in existence today, is Elan Vital's tax exempt status. Praise the Lord!!!

Tonette

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 08:43:32 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Lots of Miracles
Message:
Allah-U-Akbar.
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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 00:56:02 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam, ??????
Message:
Gee, that response went right over my head. Who or what is Allah-U-Akbar?

Regards, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 07:55:39 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Salam, ??????
Message:
A common Muslim cry, Tonette ....meaning, if I'm not mistaken, ...GOD IS GREAT.
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Date: Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 03:46:05 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Thanks, Dermot. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:34:22 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I saw a miracle once
Message:
but before I tell you what it was, I heared this premie once saying that he was sitting looking at guru maharahj ji's picture when suddenly he[da guru] started dancing for him on the table. That all I know.

The miracle I witnessed is when guu maharaj ji's photo feel in my toilet and blocked the sewege pipes for the whole street. Had shit flying everywhere.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:23:43 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: you rminded me of the story
Message:
told to me about when the ahsran residents in the security ashram went to a program except one premie who stayed behing to look after the house.
The person went into the basement where they had this large picture of m holding a white telephone. Anyway when he looked at the picture he saw that m was no longer in the picture. He claimed tha m manifested in the room, had a long conversation with him and before stepping back into the picture said 'don't bother telling anyone about this, because they'll never believe you'.

Anyone else remember this?(Particularly early ashramees/security people)

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 08:35:00 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: you rminded me of the story
Message:
It could be we are talking about the same guy. I heared this story [I think] in London by a character that could have been 'security'.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 09:44:11 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: That's right he was a WPC NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 16:55:36 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Confused about Q and miracles
Message:
Replied 'no' to all your questions, Nigel. Yet I am confused.
Does it count when I had the hunch that sometimes when I posted at F7, I knew exactly (more or less) the responses and from whom?
Does it count that I once met a lady, and I did not talk to her but I knew she had cancer although she did not look ill?
Does it count that I at several occations at a stock talk to the million (in dollars the 100 000) forecasted the loss of a company, when everyone else was talking about profits?
Does it count that I in spite of all professional stock analysist, stated that the Nasdaq woulf fall from 3000 to 1500. And if I am correct, I have stated that it will go towards 2000 and then fall again at the end of this year.
Does it count that I stated with that I a few times at a stockforum stated that the stocks would fall exactly as much as they did within one month. BTW I never made money of my forecasts.

Re Miracles.

Is it a miracle if I as a pretty normal person, experiences in connection with the Knowledge, something that scriptures describe as God or divine; i.e. a light which is infinite and in which there is absolutely no darkness?
Is it a miracle that when I meditate without seeing the above (or a glimpse of it) , even feels everything is OK?
Is it a miracle when I experience a power behind my existence filled with joy, which makes me feel that Life is great.
Is it a miracle that even in 'an hour of darkness', that I felt a bubbling feeling of joy coming from inside?

Is M involved in these miracles I have witnessed? I don't know, but I have a hunch he has.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:08:52 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Interesting questions Bjorn
Message:
But you'll have to do your own thinking here. I suggest you so honestly. Less hunch, more critical thought. (By 'experience God', do you mean 'nice'?)

It's your life. Thanks for doing the questionnaire, though. I hope you have stopped emailing Abi and Marianne. I hope also you understand the upset you might have caused. It might indeed be a miracle if that happened.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 06:05:56 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I hate labelling things Nigel
Message:
, that is my (hidden) message. I kind of typoed btw, and said experiences instead of experienced. And I mean God, or energy or whatever you call it.
Am I superstitious? proabably, but I try not to be. I think Krishnamurti, mentioned supersticiousness as one ot the major hindrances of human growth.

Putting a reality into a concept or a supersticious explanation is IMO to try to put an 'elephant' into a matchbox. It really dont fit.,

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:08:05 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: I thought this guy was blocked!!!!
Message:
What about it, gErRy?

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:22:21 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: gErRy...What about this B person?
Message:
It's apparent we are all sick to our stomachs and tired from flushing our non-gold plated toilets from all the puke spewed out.

Given that he has now cyber-stalked Marianne and Abi, and is a general pain in the ass, can't you block him?

I AM SO SICK OF BJORN! AND BJORN, if you answer this, don't expect a response from me.

Gerry, puleeze.....????

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:05:05 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Yes 'm
Message:
It's apparent we are all sick to our stomachs and tired from flushing our non-gold plated toilets from all the puke spewed out.

Given that he has now cyber-stalked Marianne and Abi, and is a general pain in the ass, can't you block him?

I AM SO SICK OF BJORN! AND BJORN, if you answer this, don't expect a response from me.

Gerry, puleeze.....????


---

Cynthia, I just blocked the B thing. If he comes back, I will email his isp and complain.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 20:15:05 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanx your graciousness [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:27:35 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Guess what Nigel
Message:
I had a hunch someone would post exactly like Marianne did
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:32:37 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Psychic
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: I knew you would say that, Bjorn
Message:
Is it a miracle that I can walk and chew gum at the same time and not trip or bite my tongue?
Is it a miracle that when I shout 'change!' at the traffic light it changes?
Is it a miracle that when I stare at the computer screen and then close my eyes, I can still see the screen?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 15:48:31 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I have seen a miracle from Him.
Message:
I have seen Him scratch His own leg BY HIMSELF. It was at a Holi festival at the Maharoli ashram in 1981 or 2 or 5. Yup, after the long effort of quirting us with coloured liquid and for those of us at the front we had the privilage of being hit b ythe rocks that were projected by the force of the water that hit the ground. (It was a real privilage to be hit by a stone in that situation because that meant you were a special devotee.)

Yes, after all that effort He just pulled back his kurta and scratched his leg by his self.

A miracle if ever there was one.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:48:34 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: But did he have anything under his Kurta?
Message:
Yes, after all that effort He just pulled back his kurta and scratched his leg by his self.

Lordy Krishna - give it to me now!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:25:15 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Message:
;) ;) ;) ;)
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 16:28:49 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Me too Jethro
Message:
I had the Divine gift of being hit by rocks in the face.

Ah the bliss, the gratitude .......I'd been waiting lifetimes for the privelege but my patience was rewarded.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:36:57 (EDT)
From: Bai Gosh Ji
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: I have seen M work miracles…
Message:
But Mr Nigel, my dear sir, it is a well known fact that Shri Maharaji (from whose lotus foots all blessings flow) can if fact and has done so in fact and certainly has been demonstrated to do so if he so wishes by his grace - lift a ninety pound blonde with his erect penis.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 04:12:30 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Bai Gosh Ji
Subject: OMG!!!!!!! Funny!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 15:01:44 (EDT)
From: Bai Gosh Ji
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Celstial greetings, Tonette Bai JI
Message:
Dear sister, the other proof of Shri shri shri Maharaji's shining divinity is the miracle that he did when he became wealthy but never once did get his lotus hands dirty with worldly work. ;)

PatC

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 01:03:42 (EDT)
From: Tonette Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Bai Gosh Ji
Subject: I should of known it was you!
Message:
But by far the greatest miracle, how ever in the world did a fat, greasy geek like Guru Maharaji Ji, King of Adipose, ever get to bed a beauty like Marolyn? Yuck, and can you imagine how inept he must of been in sexual technique at age 16? Truly a miracle in my book and really now that I think about it, maybe it was.

Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 03:48:39 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Tonette Bai Ji
Subject: Re: I should of known it was you!
Message:
I never did understand that marriage. But then I never felt that his holeyness had any sort of sex appeal - a bit of a cold fish. And the four kids aren't really miracles. Why, teens get pregnant fumbling in the backseats of cars. Those damn little sperms are determined little fellows.

Anyway he was Krishna and she was Durga Ji and the imagination can make up for a lot of shortcomings. No, I don't mean premature ejaculations. ;)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:58:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oh ye of little faith.
Message:
Nigel,

You don't get it. The whole of creation is his miracle. He sustains all life. Yeah, for he is Lord of All.

Don't tell me you forgot already.

Anth, 'Openuppayourheart...'

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:36:15 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: Need research volunteers (semi-ot)
Message:
While we are on the subject, may I invite everyone to take part in a piece of serious research. I am interested in the origins of people's paranormal belief, and am currently running an internet-based questionnaire investigating the extent to which belief derives from personal experiences to which paranormal causes have been ascribed.

Follow the link if you want to contribute. Thanks in advance.
[ The Ascribed Paranormal Experience Questionnaire ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:16:24 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Right, done that, now this ... (semi-ot)
Message:
This will definitely interest you, Nige ...

'How to Create a Course in Skepticism'

Just go to http://www.skeptic.com/ and click on 'more'.

(I'd have cut and pasted an excerpt here, but these guys seem to have sussed a very effective way of preventing that).

Please DO read. Important.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:31:42 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: just a thought Nige...-ot)
Message:
Q 14 is subjective.. I have Felt... (how definite are you..then becomes a trick question)

Not for me to nit pick...

Loafie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:47:52 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Need research volunteers (semi-ot)
Message:
Okay I filled it in but had to say no to all except two.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:50:36 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Need research volunteers (semi-ot)
Message:
Hi Nigel,

I just did your questionnaire. Very interesting!

Every story of Maharaji doing miracles was second hand. No first hand witness here.

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:12:21 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: mine is firsthand
Message:
read above
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 13:19:16 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: P.S. Nigel...
Message:
I answered yes to the first question. If you want more information, you can email me and I will explain.

FYI, I noticed that I made a mistake (Who ME?) and clicked 'no' on one of the questions, and started answering the following questions, which are reserved for 'yes' answers. I couldn't uncheck the follow-up.

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:06:02 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: P.S.
Message:
Ok I filled it in. One point- I see paranormal and spiritual experiences as quite different. The questions seemed to straddle the two subjects.
Ie ''I have received accurate information or images from a distant or hidden source (where there was no logical means of transmission)''
I wanted to answer yes because of spiritual experience - but if I did answer yes and it was attributed only to paranormal- that wouldnt be quite right.

also- It would have been good to have a definition of 'superstition' and 'paranormal'
And it may be good to have examples of normal science explanations ...

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:40:03 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Well...
Message:
..for me 'paranormal' = anthing apparently occurring that is not explainable by current scientific theory. 'Spiritual' refers to things only spiritual type pople kno anything about so you'll have to ask them. Hope that helps..;)
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:26:26 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject:
Message:
‘I have seen M work miracles…’

One of the most memorable assertions made by a premie visitor here came from ‘op’ (= ‘old premie’) a couple of years ago.

She wrote: ‘I have seen M work miracles which would put Jesus to shame’. The context was a serious allegation I had made to the effect that Maharaji, rather than being ‘omnipotent’ in any meaningful sense, possessed not a single power unknown to modern scientist (or conjuror). Not a leaf moves without his first having to blow on it, in fact.

But op went on to say that M was above ‘doing sideshow tricks’, hence the rarity of said phenomena.

Now as a premie I heard many anecdotal accounts of the wonders M had worked. These were, sadly, always second hand. But op’s unambiguous, albeit non-specific testimony looked more like the real thing: a genuine eyewitness confirming she had eyewitnessed at least one magical phenomenon. Possibly several, or maybe many miracles .

Assuming op wasn’t privy to favours denied all other devotees, I have a question for everybody – premie or ex: has anybody here witnessed M demonstrating, say, yogic power #39 or #47…? Maybe just bending the odd tea-spoon…? Anything…?

I am not interested in second-hand stories (eg. of M allegedly saving the life that Indian kid in the darshan-line). Just the mind-blowing close-ups, please. Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 09:12:08 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: About 'Pam'
Message:
Hi everyone -
This isn't an easy message to write, and I hope I don't get a lot of negative responses :).

I have been contacted by the person who posted as 'Pam', and, after having checked out this person through other sources, I believe that they are a real person. I do not know this person, so I obviously cannot say that everything they wrote in their post was true. But 'Pam' (not the real name, as you might guess!) is a friend of two ex-premie friends of mine, and my friends were able to verify that 'Pam' is a real ex-premie, and not a forum regular posing as someone else. They also said that 'Pam' was a senior EV manager until recently - I can't say the exact amount of time.

I realize that this puts many of you in an awkward position, since you have to trust what I say in order to verify that Pam is indeed a real person. If you don't know me enought to trust me, that is OK. I also realize that some people here reject anonymous posts - that is OK too. However, Pam doesn't feel comfortable coming out or revealing more right now, and very much needs to remain anonymous for the present time. So this is pretty much all I can say.

Again, although I can't verify everything in Pam's post, I can say that a premie friend of mine has said many of the same things about EV - and that I have heard verification of other parts of the post from people who are also not ready to come out yet. So the post rang true to me. Perhaps 'Pam' will feel more comfortable posting more at a later time - I hope so. (I also hope this post will help end the identity guessing game!)

Take care, all of you -
Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:33:14 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Waiting for an aswer at LG Katie nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:59:43 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: About 'Pam'
Message:
I have also been in contact with 'Pam' and I see no reason not to believe he/she is genuine. 'Coming out' as an ex for someone in his/her position is bound to be difficult. Remember, Dettmers and Donner had been away from EV for some years when they posted. To walk straight from EV management to ex-premiedom is probably near to impossible.

So let's give Pam a little slack, and unless he/she gives any reason not to, let's respect his/her wish for anonymity. I'm sure all will be revealed in the fullness of time.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:07:54 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: JHB
Subject: Re: About 'Pam' - I agree, John
Message:
The fact is that I lectured Pam self-righteously about anonymity vs credibilty but never once doubted the authenticity of the revelations contained in his/her post and apologised later for being too hasty about my insistence on not using a pseudonym.

I apologise once again to Pam. I was not heavily involved in EV over many years and should not have judged Pam according to my experience. It is very different for someone who has been involved with EV for many years and has only recently left the cult. I hope that Pam reads this and sees that I have definitely changed my mind about the anonymity issue.

Also, speaking as assistant FA, I must assure Pam that I would never do anything to compromise his/her choice to remain anonymous here. Actually I don't do much more in that capacity than watch for spammers.

Pam, feel free to email me if you have any doubts about my promise to you.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:49:25 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Why are you apologizing?
Message:
Hi Katie,

Thanks a lot for updating us on the topic. I really appreciate it. I personally thought this was a real person. The quality of the writing and the sensitive topic related comments and related 'sayings' on the top of the page screamed sincerity.

To me, the post of ex-everything and I appreciate the sensitive situation of its author.

Thanks again, and give your self more credit. ;)

Deb

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:38:13 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: exactly
Message:
I don't understand why Kaite is apologizing for someone else. It's not here fault that people post here.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:00:01 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Deborah and Salam
Message:
Because I thought the announcement might hit a nerve with some people - protective armor, maybe? Anyway, thanks for the vote of confidence - I very much appreciate it!
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 08:47:46 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Deborah and Salam
Message:
Chill out Kaite. You are still in the 'looking after everyone' state that you were in when you had f5. This place is different and it's running perfectly well without your help. Have you gone for a holiday yet?:)
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:18:07 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: Deborah and Salam
Message:
Hi Salam -
Actually, I was looking after myself (snicker!). But thanks anyway.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:23:19 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Cheers me dear ! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:03:06 (EDT)
From: FYI
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: See question at LG
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:01:30 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks Katie
Message:
I know saying that isn't easy, and I know that if you wanted to you could have just said nothing and just let people keep guessing. Thanks for being so great about this, and so many other things.

Maybe we need to have a thread about why premies, including those who are now ex-premies are so fearful of revealing who they are. Obviously, this person has already 'come out' to other EV senior EV Managers, but I guess people have their own reasons.

I hope you consider this a positive response. It was meant that way.

Hope you are doing well. We have been having glorious warm weather here. I wore the beautiful T-Shirt you made for me on Saturday and got compliments!

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:25:27 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hi Joe...coming out
Message:
Hi Joe -
Thanks - I did consider your response positive, and ditto for everyone else's in this thread (so far, anyway!).

I think it's very difficult for senior EV people to come out soon after they leave - and 'soon' can be relative. I was thinking about this last night - how hard it would be for me. As we've seen on this forum, other posters (mainly premies) can be quite hateful to ex-premies who held postions of power when these people post on here, even if these people left some time ago (Dettmers, Kari K., and even you have experienced this.)

OT - even though this has been such a rough year, both personally and globally, this has been one of the most beautiful falls that I can remember. We still haven't had a killing frost, it's been sunny, the trees have been gorgeous (especially the maples).

And glad you still like the t-shirt :)!
Lots of love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:07:30 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The important thing Katie
Message:
is that PAM appears to be genuine.

I responded to the original post by suggesting that one day , somewhere along the line, the full ID is revealed but can well understand that every individual has to decide the if, when and where for themself.

The post had the ring of authenticity at any rate.

Cheers

Best Regards to ya !

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:16:25 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Thanks, Dermot and all
Message:
I really appreciate the positive responses on this thread - I am sure 'Pam' does as well. I also appreciate the fact that people aren't e-mailing me wanting hints as to who 'Pam' is!

Thanks again to all - and
Cheers to you, Dermot!
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 10:13:16 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: About 'Pam'
Message:
I wish this person the best of luck. It is not easy leaving behind a life spent with knowledge and all that involves. Time does heal all wounds. But make no mistake. There are many people who could care less about the things that ev or m does. It's a cold, hard attitude that justifies itself with the love and peace and good feelings that the techniques, courtesy of m, bring. And that's not sarcasm. It was what I was told.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:28:21 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Selfish 'peace'
Message:
Yeah Vicki,

You've nailed the point I seem to come to over and over again about the selfish, self-centered kind of 'peace' that K brings, where you don't give a rat's ass about anyone else.

Bests to you,

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:56:43 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks Katie...
Message:
Hi Katie,

I appreciate that you posted this information about Pam. I also understand that the person needs to remain anonymous right now. I do trust the information you have provided and know you wouldn't make a frivilous post about this.

Maybe in the future this will be clarified by Pam posting with a real name. Thanks...

Hope you are well,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 13:00:54 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Thanks Katie...
Message:
Another issue about Pam is the premies who are in denial that this person was legitimate.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:57:01 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: You ain't just a'whistlin' Dixie, Marianne [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:05:24 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Yesss Marianne and thanks Katie
Message:
Thanks Katie and good point Marianne. It would be fun to know how many premies that poo-poohed PAM's revelations knew that what he/she was saying was true.

Having lived in LA, although I didn't know all the facts about M's lifestyle that I know now, I still knew enough not to tell a non-premie everything I knew about M. They would never have 'understood' and would have either told me to get my head examined or get a life.

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:10:31 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: thanks
Message:
from me who can see rob almost anywhere- a paranormal thing dont ya know
;))
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:50:48 (EDT)
From: The Real Katie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Above is not from me! *Gerry!*
Message:
Sheesh - just check my browser - and I have never had a Mac in the first place.

First time ever this has happened to me - I guess it's a compliment of sorts, but I don't like it.

The REAL Katie H.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 21:20:00 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: The Real Katie
Subject: Re: Above is not from me! *Gerry!*
Message:
I think it's from Zelda. I've done that before - I was writing to Carlos, and typed his name in the 'your name' box. Hamzen recently did the same in a post to Mili. :)

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:41:03 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Thanks, Anna - just got worried :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 06:52:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Catweasle, you appear to be avoiding me.
Message:
Cat,

Down below, you made some comments about Jagdeo, which you have consistently avoided discussing with me.

What's the problem here?

I'll repost my request, from below:

Hi Cat,

Down below, you said, 'I believe they are 'mistaken' about Jagdeo. That's just a crock. Get over to India yourself (if your game!)and you can search the place from top to bottom but you wont find JD. He isn't there and hasn't been there for a while.'

You seem to have information about the whereabouts of Jagdeo.

How do you know he isn't in India and hasn't been there for a while?

Do you know something about this, or were you just bullshitting?

I asked you about this below, but you didn't reply.

Anth who once believed in Santa.

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Date: Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 00:36:11 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Catweasle, you appear to be avoiding me.
Message:
Hey, I saw a bumper sticker that said 'Weasle, the OTHER red meat' ! It was for a local cafe. No, not Daya's fine dining. But coulda been. Two million for a restaurant opened five days a year vs nada, zero, zilth, nothing for a lifetime of pain from abuse. Hmmmmm.........
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 10:43:12 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Catweasle, you appear to be avoiding me.
Message:
Oh I dont think so.What do you want to do with such info?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:12:34 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Cat, you still haven't answered. (nt)
Message:
Why do you keep avoiding the question?

Anth, wondering what you're up to, getting a funny smell from behind the wall.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:43:40 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Give it to the Police.
Message:
What's the problem here Cat? Why are you being so cagey about this?

Why don't you come clean about what you know?

Are you scared of something?

Anth scare de cat

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:24:12 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Give it to the Police.
Message:
A simple question Anth.Nothing cagey about it.Bluntly it is my experience that the Police are most unlikely to be pursuing a20 year old pedophillia claim internationally without an intial hearing and a resultant arrest warrant. Given that my suspicion is that you really want the information to further your anti-M publicity agenda.
I know some-one in Oz who can do something practical about this if they choose. If and when they demonstrate such ,OK?
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:13:39 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: No Cat. Not OK.
Message:
Why are you dodging my original question Cat?

It looks like you're protecting a paedophile.

Either that or trying to cover up your own bullshitting.

So, what do you know about Jagdeo's whereabouts?

Anth Ginn

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:14:54 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Reality Street
Message:
How about this then you pirate.I have been asked not to broadcast his whereabouts. Sometimes you really act like an attention seeking dickhead. My info is also a bit stale now.
Considering that the plaintiff(let's DO be honest!) will NOT lay a criminal complaint and is seemingly ONLY interested in Civil damages I'd say it was a waste of time all round. I mean who is the complainant ,you or her. My mail has it that you are in serious danger of being joined to any action as your role of teacher (you were the senior teacher at Unity school were you not?) mean't it was your responsibility to ensure the care and safety of your students.Care to comment?
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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 14:38:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Yeah, LET's talk about reality
Message:
Cat,

EV claims that it's 'associate' organization in India, DUO, has filed a lawsuit against Jagdeo but that it can't find him. So who, pray tell, has asked you to not broadcast his whereabouts?

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Date: Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 05:40:35 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK , WindbagTryThisOn
Message:
Try an international law enforcement agency.Frankly James why in fucks name would ANYONE who really wanted a result communicate anything to you and the lunatic fringe you represent.Things do actually happen without your implicit knowledge. I know , I know it's a bummer but face it Jim, you are too much of a schmiel to trust with anything at all sensitive . So I simply informed the authorities of what I knew at a time when they were interested . Now here is the rub ,Jimbo! There has been NO DOCUMENTED VICTIM STAEMENT anywhere that Interpol operates. So what can this mean?You know and I know!
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Date: Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 16:00:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: This is ridiculous, Cat
Message:
Cat,

What does EV's expressed inability to find Jagdeo and your supposed knowledge of where he is (even IF you've been told not to tell!) have to do with what you're talking about? Nothing. That's pretty obvious. You're just stonewalling.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 04:41:51 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Bullshit Bullshit Bullshit Cat.
Message:
You refuse to answer my question, as I said, giving the impression to everyone you're either protecting a paedophile or bullshitting. (Is there another explanation)

Here you say, 'You were told not to broadcast his whereabouts'. This is interesting Cat.

Who told you not to say anything about it?

And as regards your question. You've got all your facts about the incident wrong Cat. You should read the accounts on EPO about who was where when. It's all there. It's in my 'Journey' too.

Cat, I'm surprised you're protecting Jagdeo like this. You don't seem the type of person to be a paedophile's pal.

Did you ever think you would sink so low in life?

Anth Ginn

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:37:25 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Forget the Cat, it's ''Weasel''...
Message:
CW,

O how coy you are! ''I know, but I don't want to tell.'' What's that crap all about?

If you have knowledge about a pedophile you are morally obligated to report it to the police. Even if he is older now, it appears he isn't living in some poverty stricken village in India, too old to abuse again and again.

Think about the possible future victims of Jagdeo, even if you think this is only about expremie agendas! That's so cowardly of you CW. He's a professional child abuser. Whether or not reporting him benefits Abi, Susan or all of his other countless victims is not my current concern. The least you can do is fess up or shut up about this subject.

Are you really unconcerned about innocent children? And what do you know about international law?

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:28:22 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: At least Cats look you in the eye
Message:
When they're expressing themselves...:)

I'd hazard a guess that the weasel part of it is only to facilitate speedy and efficient travel from one location to another in a potentially hostile terrain varying location.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 14:01:18 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Duh...SC
Message:
You know, SC, I wasn't talking to you. I have cats and know how they behave. And if I were speaking to you face to face, I know I'd outstare you!

By 'weasel' I meant like a person regarded as sneaky or treacherous; or being evasive. CW makes statements then backs out of explaning itself in a sneaky or cowardly manner.

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Date: Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 03:21:42 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: That's funny...
Message:
What Cat is saying makes perfect sense to me. Mind you, I don't have an agenda so just read what's in front of me.

Ever heard of subjudicie? No didn't think so.

It basically means that once one has provided all relevant information to the authorities - they then submit it to the court and wait - and in the meantime one has to shut the fuck up. That's why cat won't say more. Comprende?

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Date: Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 05:27:59 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hey Ugly!
Message:
No SINFIAAA , he just knows howto not feed your slimey publicity mill.PS;You ever tried to force a cat to do something . I expect you lost half your arm.
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Date: Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 15:38:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: Hey Ugly!
Message:
Cat,

It's true that Cat's go nuts when you try to get them to do something. Know why? Because they're stupid, scared and confused. Think about it. Most of the stuff you'd ever try to get a cat to do is actually good for it: get in the car, swallow the pill, come here and eat. But, yeah, Cat's are dumb as hell and terribly frightened when you get too close.

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Date: Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 03:28:14 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey Jimbo, do I detect a closet cat lover??
Message:
Oh yes, I think I do! :)
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:08:52 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Forget the Cat, it's ''Weasel''...
Message:
Who says I haven't dipshit. Stop grandstanding. This is an entirely inappropiate place to discuss this issue. You and your self rightous moaning would be better postioned in some cheap ill-informed British tabloid.
I will not be forced to participate in your churlish game. At least one victim lives in Oz. That person has spoken to a number of locals or has been communicated with by them.This stuff needs to be dealt with in a summary manner, not by a bunch of ill informed bleeding heart zealots. From either side. Now go and beat up on your family. I am not interested.
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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 04:48:32 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Inappropriate?
Message:
Cat,

You say, 'This is an entirely inappropiate place to discuss this issue.'

This discussion was started by you mentioning you had information about the whereabouts of Jagdeo. If it's inappropriate, why start it in the first place?

Why are you defending and covering up for a paedophile Cat?

Anth Ginn.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 11:45:24 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: question for u CW
Message:
I'm thinking through a question right now, maybe you can help CW. It is to do with a paper I'm writing about an well-known intellectual in WW2. He was a partner in a Third Reich industrial company. Does that mean he was innocent, indifferent or apolitical? Or does this mean he was guilty by association? Or was he just a member of this Nazi industrial company because it felt good, he liked the money, and he thought the products they produced made the world a better place? Which one do you pick CW and why? I'll footnote your comments (ha!)
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:37:22 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: What Do You Call A Man Who Preys
Message:
What Do You Call A Man Who Preys On The Weak?

Maharaji.

That's the summary my counsellor gave me today after I told him my story of involvement in the cult - sounds like someone who preys on the weak. In his own words. 'Protector Of The Weary And The Weak'. I saw Charanand two weeks ago - he supposedly translated the ancient holy arti - and now I see he was part of the plot to deceive people. Predator, IMO, not protector.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:55:53 (EDT)
From: Answer:
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: A Preying Man 'tis
Message:
flurfle
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:15:07 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hole it Time. (and Nova Special)
Message:
I just saw the Nova program on the brain, and the research by Dr. Ramachandran and was sorta spooked. It was something I said earlier about the Stonehenge special on TLC to Jim, and the 'other' case that was on the Nova special:

Apparently we have this trigger inside us. How it got there is anyone's game. Obviously doesn't require 'perfect masters' though. 'Imperfect imposters' seem to be good enough...

So, what I'm thinking is that we have explanations for both religious fervor *and* skepticism coming out of this research into neuroscience. What impressed me was the case involving the man who had damage to his amygdule that essentially blocked the emotions that would normally be associated with certain images. So, this fellow would look at his mother or father and insist that they were imposters--that even though these people were identical in every way with his *real* parents, he was nonetheless convinced that they must be some other people whom he did not know. The condition was profound, in the sense that people with this 'Kopgras' delusion could come to the conclusion that even they, themselves, were but a copy of the real 'them.'

This syndrome results from an interruption of the connections between the primary visual centers and the emotional centers that provide 'contextual' information for images. Jim referred to a case where a temporal lobe epilepsy had precisely the opposite effect, that the emotional center was bombarded with a storm of electrochemical activity during a seizure that alters the emotional significance placed on everyday images. Dr. Ramachandran speculates that we have a sort of 'Emotional Salience Landscape' that becomes altered by repeated seizures, and this provides the person with what amount to profound religious experiences that they can't relate to anyone. The fellow in the case refers to the experience as a 'key' that he would rather die than do without.

Could it be that attaching emotional significance to certain patterns is the key not only to human perception, but also the critical factor that allows us to communicate in terms of subtle concepts and profound images? I find it hard to imagine, for instance, that such religious experience (for lack of a better term) would be possible simply from an overload of 'normal' pathways. I'm pretty sure that if this is what Dr. Ramachandran is saying that he must be wrong. Why? Because the *social pattern* that grows out of this capacity is so rich, so full featured, and so... regular. That is, it seems odd to me that we might be able to found societies and cultures on emotional overload alone, unless the patterns that were being accentuated actually had some independent significance on their own.

So, this brings me back to Stonehenge and to the 'hole in time' that it represents. It was not the insights provided by this profound experience (with us since the dawn of homo sapiens possibly) that provided the breakthroughs that allowed us to control our environment and harness nature. Rather, we had to first be disconnected from that experience. We had to conceive of imposters in order to see the difference between reality and myth. We had to somehow separate 'fact' from 'significance' and 'grasp the amygdule in both hands' as it were. We had to lose faith [in everything] to find 'the substance of things hoped for.' It isn't that anyone is wrong about religion. It's that we *all* are. We have no way at all to tell the baby from the bathwater, nor will we ever have based entirely on those emotions and experiences connected with religion.

If this is right then the 'wave of the future' must *not* be merely some rejuvenated experience of deep and profound significance pulled up from the depths of our collective emotional reservoir (whether provided by God, or by Evo), because we've already been there and done that--for nearly 20,000 years. Rather, it must have something to do with the ability to determine if the *whole pattern* is consistent with something that has not only emotional significance, but confers the ability to perceive imposters for what they are. I don't think we can find a guide in scientific method alone, but we can't afford to ignore that either trusting these emotional perceptions that have mostly mislead us. I am confident, in spite of all my profound experiences, that I don't really know what is going on. Now I also don't think that those experiences, or anything like them, will *ever* get me any closer to that understanding. But we *can* perhaps get a map or diagram of this multilayerd human pattern of cognition and start putting the damn thing to the test. We could start by reproducing this ancient experience, that has bugged us so much, with the regularity of clockwork... and thereby demystify it a little. Maybe it isn't as 'delicate' as we fear.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:48:55 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Hole in Time. (and Nova Special)
Message:
greetings Scott T
I am leaving for a few days for Anthrax central, Washington DC.
Should look up Helen.

Before i go, I think your explorations on these subjects continues to interest me even though I read way more than post in these theads.
At some point, I would call your attention to the limitations we seem
bounded by as areas that hold the potential to speak volumes to further our understanding of 'what is going on'.

Later guy

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 09:48:29 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: bill
Subject: Re: Hole in Time. (and Nova Special)
Message:
Bob:

I live in DC too. Give me a ring when you get here. I'll email my number to Helen. (I think it has changed since the last time she had it.)

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 09:15:28 (EDT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: Hole in Time. (and Nova Special)
Message:
Wasn't it cool? I watched the program too. It was probably a repeat.
I loved the poor guy who had mystical experiences with just about everything, only because he had some neurons firing randomly into certain areas of the temporal lobe. It still does not prove anything: is this part of the brain a 'receptor' for spirituality or is spirituality a mirage created by certain brain areas. The neanderthal probably did not have this feature that strong. (look where they are now). The taliban have it strongly. (look where they are headed)
I still think spirituality is a strong mechanism to keep our brain from atrophy: All domestic animals(cow , horse , dog, cat, ferret, goat, sheep, chicken, pig, goldfish etc) have 10-20% less brain mass than their wild ancestors. We humans are domesticated as well.(by ourselves,(men often feel this strongly, I can't talk about the women....)). I think religion is the grand solution by evolution to prevent this from happening to us. The biggest gap: being a hunter, having the most interesting life, with thrills, exitement and danger, to the most boring, but much more productive life of a shepherd, and again, getting into farming, with monotonous, backbreaking work. Farming can sustain at least 10 x as much people as herding, which can do at least 10x better than hunter-gatherers. That's why they are driven to the margins. The same is true for industry: again at least a 10-fold increase in productivity. How come we did not lose our minds??? Every increase in productivity (= population = power to win in a conflict= survival ) has lead to severy challenges to our brain(mind). the only thing I can think of is this spirituality/ religion.
Again , it does not prove anything: Maybe we got closer to God, and that's why the divine power saved us from brain- shrinkage. But spirituality in itself saved us from domestication also: keeping this apocalyptic vieuw, being part of a Grand plan: it streches the mind, and therefore the brain, and makes it possible to endure the endless boredom, which would otherwise be fatal to the 'primitive's' development in a more advantageous situation. I think that's why in many religions acetism and renouncement are virtues. We have been caught in a weird spot (the worst of the worst...): ' The mind is supposed to be the limiting factor to spirituality. But spirituality was'designed' to keep the mind from deteriorating !!!!! What a bind!
that's why I feel like a frog pinned down in a dissecting class when I think of my wasted years in the subservience of cacarajji!!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 11:46:34 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: The Charisma Center
Message:
Bob:

I still think spirituality is a strong mechanism to keep our brain from atrophy:

Actually, so is skepticism. In fact, depending on the circumstances skepticism is probably *more* important. But the basic contention bears a strong resemblance to Max Weber's theory concerning 'charismatic legitimacy.' The 'at rest equilibrium' involves a mix of tradition and legal/rational legitimacy, but Weber saw that as an 'iron trap.' He felt that Charisma was necessary once in awhile, just to shake things up and make room for change. However, that leaves us with the dilemma of being able to recognize the 'genuine' charismatic movements from the 'imposters.' (I'm not settled on what criteria constitute 'genuine' but being able to exit via the back door seems important. If there's a guard at the exits then you're probably dealing with an imposter.) And, of course, I think that ulitimately they must *all* be imposters. There's a limit to how far we can follow charisma and not get into serious trouble.

[BTW, the term 'charisma' refers to a concept of 'original magic' whereby one can 'suspend the rules' for some period of time, or under certain circumstances. It doesn't mean someone with good or convincing skills of oratory. It would seem that the only real reason we might need to suspend the rules from time to time is that our conception of the *real rules* is a little flawed.]

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 00:02:04 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: On the subject of sarcasm and abuse
Message:
So Jim posted a thread to discuss sarcasm and abuse. Many people discussed their points of view on this subject.

I responded that I felt the climate of the forum was a little hostile towards my good natured post the first time I came here.

I even mentioned that Jim was one of the people who responded unfairly to a comment that I said out of sincerity.

Well I've been playing with the search engine and found my initial post. When I went back to read it I realized that my post was very fairly met.

I did mention that I wanted people who were not hot-headed to respond so I must have had some interpretation of what was going on.

Well, I figured it out. I was reading threads of post who were already engaged in heated arguments.
So, I assumed the worse.

Jim, who I thought (from my recollection) was one of the exes who was unfair turned out to be very civil. He asked a very simple and straight-forward question.

Being an attorney, he had the ability to ask a question that could and should be answered based on my testimony and interestingly, his post was the only one I responded to.

This was my first post:

Well I received knowledge in 1981 in Miami @ the Broadmoor Hotel.
I have been away for about 10 years and was just wandering what ever happened to Maharaji. I sort of fell off the edge of the premie world you might say.
What the hell happened? I'm beside myself. Somebody fill me in, please. Did this just creep up or was their a disturbing event?
To tell you the truth I have wandered about the whole experience but never had a bad experience and believe me, I was around. I was a gopi, service freak, darshan addict and I loved it. The last service gig I had was at the International Instructors Meeting in California. I moved to Northern California and saw Maharaji in San Francisco then bango, off the planet. I would appreciate talking to someone who is not hot-headed. I'm no idiot and I have only fond memories of my premie days, okay.
By the way, I know some you guys...heh! heh!

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Now Jim's response to me:

Subject: the rest of the story..
Message:
KR,

If you were so plugged in how'd you fall away so far? Obviously something was happening. One doesn't stop surrendering one's life to a Living Lord and all and not realize it.

Do you REALLY have nothing but fond memories of your premie days?

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My response to Jim.

To: Jim
Subject: the rest of the story..
Message:
Yes Jim,

I really have nothing but fond memories. I moved to Marin county and made my way to Sonoma where I was really involved in a job and I did not know any premies in that area. There was many times I thought of Maharaji (fondly) but felt that my
apron strings were being cut and when it was time to see M again, well, I would. But it didn't happen.

Remember we used to call M the concept bomb! Well, it looks like this is the BIG ONE!

I will try and get back to all those you answered me. Thanks

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Now I ask you, how painful was that? But for some reason, I thought it was too harsh. It had to be that I wasn't able to open up or something.

Gee, I'm glad Jim ws abusive enough to email me and ask me if I'd like to go for coffee. I'm also glad I was sarcastic enough to say 'sure'.

Too bad it took me so long.

Hey Mike Finch, I know how you must feel getting your historical posts revised. Hope you come back for more abuse. :)
[ My first post: Forum III ]

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:53:38 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: On the subject of sarcasm and abuse
Message:
I know what you mean about how sensitive we are at first here.
Jim has always been easy with me and for a good long time it was important to me that he was.
I recall your arrival and I'm glad you came aboard :)
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:54:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Philosophical dispute with cq
Message:
In the sarcasm and abuse thread below cq asks Deb:

BTW, empowering ourselves and encouraging others to put our 'innermost thoughts on the table' is what this thing's all about, isn't it?

I would answer this by saying 'not necessarily'. Sometimes it's better to scrutinize one's 'innermost thoughts' before putting them anywhere. I imagine there are some models of therapy, perhaps, where the goal is the opposite, to just get the person talking and encourage them (falsely, always) to believe that no one's judging what they say. But this isn't that. We all keep each other on our toes here and that's as it should be. Qaulity control.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 16:20:25 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well said that man
Message:
'Sometimes it's better to scrutinize one's 'innermost thoughts' before putting them anywhere.'

Ready with that plea yet, Jim? (and it's EX-premies I was talking about).

What's it to be? Guilty or not guilty?

(thinks - you being the legal man here, Jim, and me the ignorant punter, do you think it's entirely fair that an accused cannot see the evidence against them before they have to make their plea?)

Or is this the wrong time to ask?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:03:26 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Not guilty! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:34:21 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The case has been dropped
Message:
The case has been dropped.

In the real world, this would cost have cost me megabucks, and it's been a valuable lesson to me to learn how specific one needs to be when pressing charges.

Two particular words were used in my indictment of your methods, Jim, (for which see here
and those two words mean the difference between a case that would have been valid, and one that would have fallen at the first fence.

I think you know which two words they were.

They were 'newly' and 'arrived'.

But for those two ill-chosen specifics, I'd challenge your professed plea of 'not guilty'.

As it is, I withdraw my charge, as was originally stated.

Fuck.

I was looking forward to winning that one.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:51:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: That's not good enough
Message:
Where's the apology? That's one thing. You come on pretty strong, suggesting that if I would only be honest about this and just admit your case I could avoid the painful embarrassment of having you prove it. Then you say you're dropping it but only because you'd somehow tricked yourself out of prosecuting the best charges. What happened to your initial theory, Chris?

You'd written:

Ready with that plea yet, Jim? (and it's EX-premies I was talking about).

What's it to be? Guilty or not guilty?

(thinks - you being the legal man here, Jim, and me the ignorant punter, do you think it's entirely fair that an accused cannot see the evidence against them before they have to make their plea?)

Or is this the wrong time to ask?

which sounded to me, at least, as if you already had all this evidence behind your back and were just testing my memory and / or honesty. Now it seems as if you were just blowing smoke. What's THAT all about?

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 16:06:50 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's as good as you'll get
Message:
Tricked myself out of prosecuting? Let's say I saw the flaw in my specific wording (and how many cases have been lost on that account, I wonder?).

OK then, Jim, will you answer to the same charge that I originally put to you, minus the words 'newly-arrived'?

And, just to re-iterate, that's 'newly-arrived' in relation to exes and not premies who post on this Forum.

As to what's happened to my initial theory - well, let's go back to that then. The initial theory was based on whether or not you had been 'abusive' or had 'abused' posters here.

You've admitted that your posts to premies have been 'injurious'. But for some reason the word 'abusive' is anathema to you. I think I begin to see why.

Abuse has only recently, i.e. in the last two or three decades, come to be associated with such terms as 'sexual abuse' or 'child abuse'. However, for many centuries, the word had far wider implications, not specifically related to criminal acts.

I can see why you don't want to be linked to any accusations of 'abuse', given the narrower meaning the word has come to be associated with. Hence, I can understand your objections when I call your posts abusive. BUT, I do seriously wonder if words that have been of valid use in the English language for many centuries, should suddenly lose their former meaning simply because they've been demoted to become 'pormanteau' words that modern PC-speak deems the one and only meaning that they can have.

In my less than humble opinion, THAT was the basis of our original disagreement, Jim. Though somehow, in the heat of following through the certainty of my position, I ended up accusing you of something which you have already admitted to - as far as your attitude towards premies is concerned.

But, if you think I should apologise for the fact that your 'guard-dog' mentality has resulted in a Forum in which no-one here can feel free to discuss EITHER religion OR 'new-age' concepts without anticipating your verbally abusive (yes, the word's still valid) attacks, - then think again, Jim.

That's how I see things at the moment.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:32:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Let's let it go, Chris [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 10:36:34 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're a fucking idiot is what you are
Message:
... as can we all be, from time to time.

this link is an example of what I mean, but ... hey, if we can't feel free to spout off occasionally, however bigoted or boorish it makes us appear, then the alternative would no doubt be far worse.

I'll promise not to frighten away the newbies. You too?
(thinks, ... that hasn't ever been your policy though, has it.) My mistake. Apology proferred.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 12:58:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: What are my options, Chris?
Message:
What are my options, Chris? You want me to justify calling Kieth a 'fucking idiot'? I can but to do so properly would require dredging up not just this thread but all the many, many, MANY Kieth threads that preceded it, the ones in which he exhausted the patience of all but the most new age posters among us with his claims to shamanhood and impenetrable new age jargon. This wasn't the first time I was forced to cut through that stuff in order to talk with him at all. Yet there was nothing stopping him, time and again, from reverting to the same meaningless phrases and stock new age cliches. Anyone forced to repeat himself over and over again on the same irrefutable points of logic in the same futile diaolgues with the same person is, over time, going to lose patience as well as respect for the other. That's where the thread you've linked to finds me. Been there, done it countless times already with Kieth and I was more than happy to remind him of that.

Anyway, I stand by calling him a 'fucking idiot' and suggest that if want to be fair about it you review his entire history as a poster for context. Of course that would be a long, laborious project but it seems like you've got nothing better to do so, please, be my guest.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 03:01:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: On the subject of sarcasm and abuse
Message:
You said: ''Well, I figured it out. I was reading threads of post who were already engaged in heated arguments.
So, I assumed the worse.''

This was a continuation of a conversation we were having further down in another thread where I said that the most intimidating factor of posting on the forum for the first time isn't the myth of Jim the bully but simply joining a new social circle (which is usually in the midst of heated arguments.)

It was most interesting to read that stuff from 98.

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 20:28:49 (EDT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: All
Subject: setting the record straight
Message:
In a recent exchange of posts, it could be construed that I had personal knowledge of the circumstances precipitating Padarthanand's departure from Australia, I do not.

I have never occupied more than a minor position in Mr Rawat's organisation, and was simply making the assumption that I would guess many oz premies make on reading Pam's Post.

Regards, Lesley

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 23:24:33 (EDT)
From: angry
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Re: setting the record straight
Message:
Well then, why did Pardathanand leave? Why is there so much coverup? What about instructor Derek Harper? Why are they keeping the lid on him? He is well down for his drunken debaucheries and sexual escapades. The women premies in New Zealand got up in arms not so long ago over one of his sexual antics in Wellington. He hasn't been back there since! Why is the organisation covering up - isn't it time they came clean? Why wasn't he and other instructors who abuse their power and position sacked?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:17:54 (EDT)
From: Aussie premie
Email: None
To: angry
Subject: Re: setting the record straight
Message:
Well then, why did Pardathanand leave? Why is there so much coverup? What about instructor Derek Harper? Why are they keeping the lid on him? He is well down for his drunken debaucheries and sexual escapades. The women premies in New Zealand got up in arms not so long ago over one of his sexual antics in Wellington. He hasn't been back there since! Why is the organisation covering up - isn't it time they came clean? Why wasn't he and other instructors who abuse their power and position sacked?


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Derek Harper is Catweasel.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 05:36:09 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Aussie premie
Subject: Evidence please
Message:
You made a definitive statement that is of some considerable significance and interest to many forum dwellers. Whether we like or dislike Catweasel, he has become somewhat of a legend in his own emailbox, and the forum's.

So please don't toy with our emotions if you are just guessing his identity.

Please provide some evidence to back up your claim, shri 'Aussie premie'.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 07:31:55 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: I couldn't care less but
Message:
when I was the Forum 6 webmaster, Catweasel was in New Zealand and before that, he was in Oz. This is from the IP addresses.

But who really cares? I know I don't.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 05:01:22 (EDT)
From: Moll of Mole
Email: moleofmole@loveable.com
To: Aussie premie
Subject: Re: setting the record straight
Message:
'B' Tells me Derek is very well known indeed for is drunkeness and sexual escapades and it is excepted because he is an instructor and no one wants to pull him up on it. 'B' said he did not think Derek had the brains to be CW.
MoM
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 00:11:01 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: angry
Subject: Why are you being defensive
Message:
Hello Angry,

I don't know if it's you or me but I didn't get the impression Leslie was covering up anything about Pardathanand. I think Leslie just wanted to clarify that He/She? didn't know about why Pardathanand had left at the time.

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 18:11:42 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Belly laughs all round
Message:
I don't know why but I haven't laughed so much for yonks. Reading Erika, Bjorn, Arjuna and their cousin Hubbard thetan fanatics.....ahhh Jeeze...cultic beliefs , passionate religious fervour, the whole caboodle seems so petty and absurd !!

Then again, how long did I believe in Maharaji ? A sobering thought.

Cheers Y'all

Dermot

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 15:32:23 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Arjuna just emailed me !!!!!!!
Message:
Hers's what I just got in my email box:

Thank you for your tireless effort in exposing how useless you are as a human being. Take your sorry misguided and repulsive self and see a doctor. You are at best and example of a deluded old ex- hippie who was waiting for someone to save his sorry ass. Get a job, find a wife, learn some life skills and quit waiting for someone to save you.

I have had enough of listening to lazy white American males such as yourself, who are now in their 40's and 50's, having to face the fact that they pissed their lives away in self made deception. No, you created your deception of your life and you have to save your own fat ass. No one is going to do it for you. So get up off that old tire ass of yours ,stop waiting for the world, or a Master to save you, and get a life. If all these thing happened to you and the rest of your sorry ass ex-premies, as you say, then why do you waste your life enveloped in reminders your misery?

Get on with your life and stop trying to convince people that you are here to help expose Maharaji. Lets expose you. I think the real issue is that you, as most White Americans Males, have pathologically looked to avoid doing your own work. Well fat ass it doesn't work like that. Maharaji didn't come to America to fulfill your lazy ass expectations and concepts. Or weren't you paying attention when all you so called ex-premies created another club of exclusive white folks for the world to marvel at. I have seen it time and again. If you white guys were half the men you claim to be, you would have realized the work you have to do, and do it. Supreme race my ass. Your ancestors had black slaves to help build your society, and white men raped black women, lynched black men and destroyed their sense of self respect and of self divinity. Your disgusting race is a constant source of unrest, violence and tyranny. Spiritually you are bankrupt and conveniently you tried to use Maharaji. 'Maharaji' servant of the great white man'. Bullshit I hate being in the same room with you evil devils. Screw the white man! May he rot in hell for all his lies, deception and acts against humanity. Everywhere your white brothers go you create darkness. People are dying everyday and you sit and complain about your sorry ass experience, spouting your distortion of truth liken to filth. Poor you!!! You simple minded crust of dog shit. Why don't you pray to Jesus to save your ass? Because you know the Jesus of the White man its just another lie perpetuated by the great white liar.
Arjuna,

Kasatriya Premie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 12:53:10 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Arjuna and Jean-Michel's arse.
Message:
Quite reasonable, balanced comments. (Pity Arjuna has let the cat out of the bag with you being an American.) I particularly liked his analysis of world history on grounds of race.

What interests me though Jean-Michel, is his fascination with your arse, which he refers to no less than seven times in his post.

Having seen your arse for myself (fully clothed I hasten to add), I can't see what's so special about it.

Does Arjuna know something about your buttocks that I don't?

Anth, only arseking

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 13:32:29 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Why doesn't he turn the other cheek? [nt]
Message:
turn the other cheek?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 13:06:03 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Precisely !
Message:
That's why I've posted his email to me !!

I guess he's accessed to some secret documents EV got on me ....

Maybe a copy of the medical records of my last coloscopy ?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:58:31 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Maybe it was the tattoo.
Message:
That's why I've posted his email to me !!

I guess he's accessed to some secret documents EV got on me ....

Maybe a copy of the medical records of my last coloscopy ?


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Maybe it was the tattoo J-M. You know, the one of the Buddha, whose thousand petal lotus opens when you bend down.

Anth, moving slowly back down the food chain.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 04:59:11 (EDT)
From: one who's been there
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: to you, arjuna:
Message:
ATTENTION, ARJUNA. THIS IS FOR YOU. READ IT CAREFULLY AND REALIZE WHAT YOU HAVE FALLEN FOR

this is sincere. it is from me to you.
you can only see in others what you see in yourself. and when you hate something in them, it is because you see it in yourself and you hate it about yourself. the parts of you that you have rejected, cut off, pushed away, and denied, will not be ignored. they will return again and again and get you to look at them. if not in yourself, in another. the only way to cure them is that they must be embraced and acknowledged, in order for you to grow thru them and out of them. roses don't bloom because you whip them and lacerate them. it is the same with self.

that said, i give you your words again. read them this time, and see that this is the voice you hear talking to you, about you, in your own head. it is an abusive voice, a tormenting one. no good can come of accepting the battering of your self like this.
there is advice embedded here, that, if you would take it--from you to you--could prove to be liberating, and a way out of your prison of rage and abuse and pain.
we have no external enemies. our greatest enemy is ourselves. the enemy is always within. and you cannot beat yourself and win. you cannot divorce yourself either. the only answer is understanding, forgiveness, integration. to make that enemy become your friend.
i put the loudest parts in bold. these need to be faced. where are they coming from? who said these things to you? is this what you believe? or did you swallow someone else telling you it was like this?
if you had never heard these things, what would your original thoughts be? how can you recover/discover what your real, inner knowing is? there is only one of you in all the world. only you see what you see. only you know what you know. only you feel as you feel. no one can speak for you, or think for you, or do, for you. only you can.
that said, here: read it again:

'Thank you for your tireless effort in
exposing how useless [you are][maharaji is][the black man is] as a human being.
Take your sorry misguided and repulsive self and see a doctor.
You are at best an example of a deluded [old ex-][ hippie][downtrodden slave descendent] who was waiting for someone to save his[soul][life][ sorry ass].
Get a job, find a wife, learn some life skills and quit waiting for someone to save you.

I have had enough of listening to lazy
[white American][drugged hippie][ welfare ghetto]
males such as yourself,
who are now in their 40's and 50's,
having to face the fact that they pissed their lives away in self made deception.

No, you created your deception of your life and you have to save your own fat ass.
No one is going to do it for you. So get up off that old tired ass of yours ,stop waiting for the world, or a Master to save you, and get a life.

If all these thing happened to you and the rest of your sorry ass [people][ex-premies], as you say, then why do you waste your life enveloped in reminders your misery?

Get on with your life
and stop trying to convince people that you are here to help expose[the oppressor][ Maharaji]. Lets expose you. I think the real issue is that you, as most[ White][ Americans][ Males] [premies],[blacks][hippies][welfare cheats][infidels][third world dependents] have pathologically looked to avoid doing your own work. Well, fat ass, it doesn't work like that.

[Maharaji][the white man][the government][your spouse][your employer] didn't come to America to fulfill your lazy ass expectations and concepts.

Or weren't you paying attention, when all you so- called [ex's][premies][oppressed descendents of slaves] created another club of exclusive [white][black]['saved] folks for the world to marvel at?
I have seen it, time and again.
If you [white][black] guys were half the men you claim to be, you would have realized the work you have to do, and do it.
'Supreme [race']['knowledge']['Power In Person']['Personality Of Godhead'], my ass!

Your ancestors had black slaves[,themselves, in africa!] to help build your society,
and [white][black] men raped [white][black][asian][indian][aztec/mayan/inca] women,
lynched black men [tribe to tribe in africa]
and destroyed their sense of self respect, and of self divinity.
'Your disgusting race is a constant source of unrest, violence and tyranny'.

Spiritually, you are bankrupt, and conveniently, you tried to use Maharaji.

~~>'Maharaji-- '[servant][exploiter][fleecer] of the great [white][black][indian][80 country] man[woman][and child]'.'

Bullshit!
I hate being in the same [room][country][boat][cult][planet] with [myself] [you][ evil] [devils].

Screw the [white][con] man! May he rot in hell for all his lies, deception and acts against humanity.

Everywhere your [abusive][black][oppressed][white][brainwashed][cult][islamic][terrorist][fanatic] brothers go, you create darkness.
People are dying everyday, and you sit and complain about your sorry ass experience,
spouting your distortion of truth liken to filth.
Poor you!!!
'You simple minded crust of dog shit'.

Why don't you pray to Jesus to save your ass?

Because you know

the Jesus of the [White][black][universal] [man][woman][child]--

its just another lie, perpetuated by the great white liar[of the thwarted ego][the codependent victim][the brainwashed cultist][the irresponsible person who doesn't want to face themselves honestly].

Arjuna,
living in the misdirected rage stimulated by words beaten into him, and thoughts not his own

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 03:50:13 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: post his email address 4 us
Message:
we not only can blizzard him with answers, but he wll hang himself ith generating more of the same answering back.
build a case, setout the bait, close the trap, skin the catch.

this guy is
1)black
2)racist
3)self styled black muslim, Nation of Islam flavor
4) thinks he follows malcomn X, in reality follows louis farrkhan
5)has got your nationality wrong
6)has got pat's religion wrong
7)is not only brainwashed by maharajism, but also by farrakhan,
martial arts,
some reading in indian history (probably the krishna temple)
and his own ghetto upbringing.
a.no african would dignify him the way he is.
b.no indian would.
c.maharaji wouldn't,
d.neither would any krishna temple.
e.nor would any martial arts master
f.or any yogi.
g.and most muslims would ruen their backs on his brand of islam.

this persons' letters are a vivid demonstration (and i underscore the 'demon' in that word)
of the metaphysical observation that you hate in others what you see in yourself. the behavior you can mark it by, is to reread his words as if he is addressing himself in the mirror.

what he hates is not you or me., he hates himself. the advice he spews here is directed toward what he sees in himself, and it is himself he is addressing. when one embraces and accepts all of oneself, one's hatred of others dissipates and evaporates.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 04:02:59 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: You can email him
Message:
arjune1@hotmail.com

I don't want to spend time on this guy. I merely save the records.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 03:40:03 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Arjuna just emailed me !!!!!!!
Message:
I really think that you should explain things to him properly. This guy doesn't really know you. He think that you are a fat ass white American. Time for him to know the truth, that you are a fat ass white Frenchman.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 04:59:19 (EDT)
From: sivan
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: bigasses
Message:
hope u r not trying to usurp the Master...he has the ass record.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:26:17 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: sivan
Subject: Re: bigasses
Message:
i think we should have a big ass competition, find out who has what.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:52:36 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Yeah, well, how ya...
Message:
gonna get the ass(hole) of the universe to enter the competition? Do you think he looks in the mirror assbackwards?

Answer me that!

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:04:23 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: that's a hard one
Message:
I need to consult with the Synchronized Ass Team. Also you can't holy asses in the entry.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 02:36:24 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Arjuna just emailed me !!!!!!!
Message:
J-M,

I've had a longish email exchange with Arjuna where as usual I've tried to have a rational debate, but he appears to have reserved his best for you!

John.

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 23:45:33 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: oh, c'etait mahatma arjuna amin, peut-etre...
Message:
J-M, so you're 'American' now, huh, pwobably collecting welfare, too? ok, den, part A) of citizenship test: please finish the first verse of this patriotic song: I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee,___________________________

dat phony emale sounds like some kinda infectious schizo phlegm spam bug [some type of bacillus phlegmitis]. if you know any veteranarians [hmmmm?], maybe just a do a lil bit of horse tranquilizer. [dis will make you forgit about dat thupid annoyance, anyway. hehehe]

btw, dat phlegmie troll is obviously feeling such bliss, by da gwace of da massa.

paix et legumes,

PS speaking of bugs, some phelgmies made my computer sick. so, called my telecom security fwends and alerted isp; now i have tracking and security in place. somebody playing stupid illegal cyberterrorist twick is gonna slip on dat karmic banana peel. da wages of tricks: sooner or later you git caught -- und pay da pwice... simple law of da universe: for every action there is an equal reaction, etc...

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 21:54:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: U must admit the lynching was bad, JM
Message:
Arjuna does ahve a point there about the lynching. That was bad shit, there's no point denying it.

Yeah, so there's that ....

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 20:11:25 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Even more threats from the Arjuna guy!!
Message:
From 'Shawn Arjuna Eison'
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 18:17:08 -0400

I do not represent anyone but myself and I could care less if you think I am a coward. I have stood up for more in my birth than you have in your entire lifetime. Believe what you will, but I am not a believer of Gandhi’s beliefs. I follow Malcolm X's beliefs. I am Karna of the Mahabharata. I do not turn the other cheek, I do not push, I punch. I have no respect for those premies that stand around and smile while some piece of shit condemns their teacher. I am your worst nightmare. You may think you are brave but I challenge you to ceremonial combat. You pick the terms and where. I could give a rat’s ass about the name Arjuna; I do not believe a name reflects action or honor. That is Aryan bullshit. I inherited a slave name; remember your sick ass ancestors raped mine. I am a product of this dysfunctional society that the white majority created . I am Gotocacha trained to respond like death, when death knows it is your time.

Arjuna got his name because of his birth as you did. Jesus was not famous before he was born. Open your eyes and confront a man and a real premie someone who will hit back, who will speak up, who will growl. As far as defending Maharaji, he would not bother with your accusations, but I am not he, he would say your actions are ignorance. However, I feel this way, people like you as are cancer. If I were a Jew, I would make Hitler wish he had meet Satan instead of me. I am what you fear in the darkness. I am in your consciousness and you will not escape the seeds of your own minds’ hatred. I am all that you hate and you have met your match.

You have my e-mail address and challenge.
Arjuna

!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 21:14:41 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Very deranged message
Message:
I don't understand what this guy is even trying to say. I don't get the connection to Maha, Jesus, slaves who raped his ancestors, etc.

But I do think it sounds like the don Puerco character, but I haven't been around long enough to know the other characters.

Nagual Rain was posting when I first came here, and I do remember the posts being sick.

Why is he singeling out you?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 03:59:52 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: No more video events, that's the problem
Message:
He's after everybody, not specially after me. There is not much happening anymore in EV's world, and I think I can understand his frustration. He's trying to find a new goal in his life I guess ....
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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 20:29:06 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Even more threats from the Arjuna guy!!
Message:
Stark raving mad, J-M. This is probably hanuman/sumo boy/nagual rain/don puerco et al who once said to me here that ''Immorality is Immortality.''

I hope you have your email set to show the source of it and trace it. It may trace to an internet cafe in Germany. We can then all email the ISP and tell them.

I hope you are saving these emails as unfortunately I deleted mine. This is cyberstalking compounded with dangerous psychopathic threats. This person is sick.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 05:23:01 (EDT)
From: don
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: wrong guess, pat! see below
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 14:50:24 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: don
Subject: Arjuna does a good impersonation of you, don
Message:
Perhaps you should find out who this impostor is because he's stealing all your best ideas.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:53:13 (EDT)
From: don
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Arjuna does a good impersonation of you, don
Message:
as my ol' buddy jesus used to say : he who is not against me is with
me...so this guy's got my blessings...
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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 18:21:52 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Arjuna.....glad he's not on my side
Message:
he'd probably shoot me by mistake.

''white American males such as yourself''

You've got a definite tactical advantage over the guy JM , he certainly doesn't know where you live.

What does kasatriya mean , I don't like the sound of it.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 03:32:26 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: kashatriya is the warrior caste
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 18:07:36 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This sounds like the same guy ..
Message:
... who e-mailed some unspeakable smutty vitriol to Pat Conlon which he posted here about a month ago.

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 16:44:14 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Preoccupied with ASSES????
Message:
Who is this guy? In addition to being a vicious racist, and being really, really upset that people are talking about Maharaji, he also appears to have a fixation on asses, particularly the asses of white men, as you can see below. Oh whatever can he do? I know one thing, given his fixation, I wouldn't want to be in a room with HIM either, that's for sure, or at least I would keep my back to the wall at all times.

Thank you for your tireless effort in exposing how useless you are as a human being. Take your sorry misguided and repulsive self and see a doctor. You are at best and example of a deluded old ex- hippie who was waiting for someone to save his sorry ass. Get a job, find a wife, learn some life skills and quit waiting for someone to save you.

I have had enough of listening to lazy white American males such as yourself, who are now in their 40's and 50's, having to face the fact that they pissed their lives away in self made deception. No, you created your deception of your life and you have to save your own fat ass. No one is going to do it for you. So get up off that old tire ass of yours ,stop waiting for the world, or a Master to save you, and get a life. If all these thing happened to you and the rest of your sorry ass ex-premies, as you say, then why do you waste your life enveloped in reminders your misery?

Get on with your life and stop trying to convince people that you are here to help expose Maharaji. Lets expose you. I think the real issue is that you, as most White Americans Males, have pathologically looked to avoid doing your own work. Well fat ass it doesn't work like that. Maharaji didn't come to America to fulfill your lazy ass expectations and concepts. Or weren't you paying attention when all you so called ex-premies created another club of exclusive white folks for the world to marvel at. I have seen it time and again. If you white guys were half the men you claim to be, you would have realized the work you have to do, and do it. Supreme race my ass. Your ancestors had black slaves to help build your society, and white men raped black women, lynched black men and destroyed their sense of self respect and of self divinity. Your disgusting race is a constant source of unrest, violence and tyranny. Spiritually you are bankrupt and conveniently you tried to use Maharaji. 'Maharaji' servant of the great white man'. Bullshit I hate being in the same room with you evil devils. Screw the white man! May he rot in hell for all his lies, deception and acts against humanity. Everywhere your white brothers go you create darkness. People are dying everyday and you sit and complain about your sorry ass experience, spouting your distortion of truth liken to filth. Poor you!!! You simple minded crust of dog shit. Why don't you pray to Jesus to save your ass? Because you know the Jesus of the White man its just another lie perpetuated by the great white liar.
Arjuna,

Kasatriya Premie

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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 18:57:11 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I won't pick up the soap in a shower with him
Message:
Yes, Joe, as someone who has been known to occassionally delight in a cheeky derriere, I noticed that too.

PatD, a Kshatriya is the Indian caste of warriors and rulers of which Messrs Krishna and Arjuna were members.

Francesca, yes, I thought that it sounded a lot like the email I got a few months ago and which I posted here.

This email also sounds like a post made many months ago which villified Dettmers, Heller and I as ''greedy white American Jews who boasted of our wealth all the while crushing the poor black man'' which was written by the same person who sent me the nasty emails.

The same fellow also recently called on Allah to smite me when I happened to mention that the Koran was a bunch of primitive hooey. He had an explosive orgasm while watching the WTC tragedy and gloried in the fact that the American capitalists had been punished.

J-M, was this email sent from a internet cafe in Germany? My guess is that it may also be the same person who emailed you in the guise of a satsangee.

This person specializes in all the primitive Indian religions plus a few even more bastardized esoterica. In fact he has practiced yogic mumbo-jumbo for so long that he now has his head permanently embedded up his ass. That's why he has an ass fetish.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 08:22:20 (EDT)
From: Mr. Observation
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: give me your tired and sorry asses
Message:
This person specializes in all the primitive Indian religions plus a few even more bastardized esoterica. In fact he has practiced yogic mumbo-jumbo for so long that he now has his head permanently embedded up his ass. That's why he has an ass fetish.
Or how about repressed homosexuality manifesting as anger?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 05:19:41 (EDT)
From: don
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: I won't pick up the soap in a shower with him
Message:
sorry pat, I again have to disappoint you, but hanuman don nagual
is NOT repeat NOT the author of that post, I know you love me that's
you why always think of me first when some weird mail pops up..
about the ass fetish I think that is definitely your prerogative!!
and yes, i like the mail of this guy, it could have been mine, but
I am happy there's other guys like me in the rotten u.s. of a!!!
there once was the empire of the mayans, there once was the roman
empire, the once was the spanish empire, there once was the english
empire, there once was the third reich, there once was the superpower
ussr and there once was the superpower u.s.of a.....Allah kerim !!!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:38:53 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: don
Subject: your choice of the next is? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:57:53 (EDT)
From: don
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: who cares ????
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 17:54:16 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Ah what a laugh...another happy premie haha [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 15:40:04 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Arjuna?!- or the one in the Krishna costume?(nt)
Message:
Arjuna?!- or the one in the Krishna costume?(nt)
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