Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Oct 21, 2001 To: Oct 29, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


Barry -:- Idea? -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 20:19:25 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Yes Bar, it's a GOOD idea -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 21:00:45 (EDT)
__ __ Barry -:- Re: Yes Bar, it's a GOOD idea -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 11:40:17 (EDT)

Chuck S. -:- EPO credibility and anonymous PAMs -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 17:35:24 (EDT)
__ Inside Edition -:- CAC attacks -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 14:43:50 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Safety in Numbers -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 16:11:01 (EDT)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- Harrassment from premie zealots -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 15:29:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Harrassment from premie zealots -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 18:36:29 (EDT)
__ From some who knows -:- Re: EPO credibility and anonymous PAMs -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:50:29 (EDT)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- Serious accusations and credibility... -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 05:56:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- The best compromise -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 07:12:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Sounds good to me, Dermot -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 14:28:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Ditto, Dermot and Chuck... [nt] -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 15:10:58 (EDT)
__ __ SC -:- The power was all you your head mate -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:40:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ From someone who knows -:- Thank you -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 03:41:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- Me Too! -:- Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 23:35:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Mr Dooley -:- Your regurgitation -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:52:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- Uh oh! Unfriendly fire! -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 00:42:26 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- What about.... -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:10:05 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Uh oh! Friendly fire! -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:47:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Pam is in contact with several exes by email -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:08:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Moley -:- Pat - ditto re: Dettmers -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:56:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Anonymous? Moi? -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 20:29:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- A Smooth velvety taste -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 21:45:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- It's not French Moley! -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:51:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- Funny you should mention dying embers -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 23:01:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- We should do business Moley! -:- Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 00:02:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Methinks Jacob Creek is Wine -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 20:34:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Good post, Deborah -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 12:15:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Journeys vs. forum posts -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:05:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Hi Nigel, I see your point, but. -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 19:07:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Karl did reply to me -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 02:20:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nige -:- Ok, thanks John.. -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 04:46:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Jacob Creek Runs Through Boone's Farm.. [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 21:42:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- As I just said to Mr Dooley above... -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 20:45:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- A bit of quick spin. -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:52:57 (EDT)
__ __ Francesca ~) -:- Anth, Chuck is an EX -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:43:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Thanks F Sorry C -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:56:18 (EDT)
__ __ Mr. Dooley -:- Re: What about.... -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:33:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Yes, sorry about that (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:54:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mr. Dooley -:- Re: Yes, sorry about that (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:26:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Dooley. Report to my room at 4pm. -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 04:23:36 (EDT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Hey Anth! (ot) -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:19:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- One for you Anna. (ot) -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:23:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks Anth! (ot) -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:20:17 (EDT)

Michigander -:- Anyone Remember this? -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 16:08:04 (EDT)
__ cq -:- To Nigel - check this -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 16:46:50 (EDT)
__ __ Michigander -:- Re: To Nigel - check this -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 09:14:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Michigander -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 23:53:18 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Thanks Chris - quite a coincidence.. -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 17:30:40 (EDT)
__ cq -:- Wasn't Disraeli Gears was it ... -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 16:41:53 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- no,it was yippie Soupy Sales -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 17:44:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mr. dooley -:- Soupy was da man -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:45:20 (EDT)

cq -:- audio message for EV Inc re. child abuse -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 15:04:39 (EDT)

Gail -:- Collective high vs. ecstacy -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:45:33 (EDT)
__ hamzen -:- The reverse for me gail -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:01:12 (EDT)

Francesca -:- Save personal e-mail from premie trolls -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:16:47 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Premie troll harassment Page -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:54:41 (EDT)

JHB -:- New Journeys Entry -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:16:28 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Forward it to 'Life's Great'. -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:46:35 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- Definitely still a premie (fake or genuine) -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:22:57 (EDT)
__ __ Mr. Dooley -:- Agree-it's got that Rawat Stench [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:35:14 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Very 'convenient' -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:18:43 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- Its a valid journey -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 02:15:23 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- I wouldn't keep that one -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:19:49 (EDT)
__ __ Mike Finch -:- lapsed or inactive premies who aren't ex-premies -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:22:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Gail -:- Re: lapsed vs. exl-premiesremies -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:14:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Arguable even some ex-premies are still premies -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:10:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Ex-Premies -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 15:57:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Arguable that's true for any 'spiritual practice' -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:17:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Hamzen, a question from something you said. -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 02:21:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Tonette... -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:32:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Poking my nose in, Tonette -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 03:35:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Smelly premies -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:28:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- You got me chuckling there john -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:30:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Let me answer -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:42:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mr. Dooley -:- Yes and -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:03:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gail -:- Re: Yes and -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:20:25 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: I wouldn't keep that one -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 00:45:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- All good reasons for keeping it -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:03:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- Me no Karl invent -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:58:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Hi, David -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:37:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Consumer -:- Gee SC -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:41:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- No it isn't -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 23:12:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh please, do you have any pictures? -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 23:51:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Actually yes....several colour glossies -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 00:51:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Actually yes....several colour glossies -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:24:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Youur kidding! -:- Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 23:53:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Did you miss ... -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:21:21 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- 'we are all god' was NEVER rawats message. [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:31:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Paul Simon -:- True -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:56:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Maybe so but -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:04:54 (EDT)

JHB -:- Updated Jouneys Entry -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:57:15 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Bloody religious books :) -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:27:10 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Charmingly christian and quaint but.... -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:14:17 (EDT)

JHB -:- New Journeys Entry -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:18:49 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- The long and winding road dadummm -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:35:40 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, Karen. -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:22:35 (EDT)

Joe -:- Response to Erika Andersen Re Ashram -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 16:49:10 (EDT)
__ Moley -:- Erika's attitude is truly disgusting -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:33:43 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- To Moley... -:- Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:51:30 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- JHB - find this a permanent home, please.. -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:05:34 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Will do [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 21:06:18 (EDT)
__ such -:- Good 'un,Joe! [lobotomy gave Erika amnesia] [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 15:20:45 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Powerful post, Joe -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:23:58 (EDT)
__ Tonette -:- Question about Erika. -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:49:49 (EDT)
__ Disculta -:- The CLASSIC mind-f––k -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:54:17 (EDT)
__ PatD -:- Great post Joe -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:27:38 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- 'told to fuck off & die'LOL [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:51:52 (EDT)
__ Susan -:- excellent Joe (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:24:00 (EDT)
__ Francesca :( -:- ***BEST, BEST, BEST of FORUM*** -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:08:31 (EDT)
__ __ Vicki -:- M will never go on record -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:47:05 (EDT)
__ Bjørn E -:- Differnet experiences in ashrams -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:36:44 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- IGNORE the above post from ''B''^^^^ [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:04:09 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Perhaps you're a sadist, Bjørn -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:43:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Sir Dave -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:58:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Kra, Kra, yourself! -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:43:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Funny Jerry -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:24:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Kra, Kra, kra kra -- 96 tears! [nt] -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:18:52 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- You ... you...you are a complete imbecile! -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 21:44:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Jim, I was hoping -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 21:59:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn E -:- Dermot no need to comment Jim -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:51:11 (EDT)
__ __ Not so lucky -:- You lucky, lucky, bastard -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:46:07 (EDT)
__ Gregg -:- 'Guru' Maharaj Ji -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:54:38 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- That says it all -- well done indeed [nt] -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:53:28 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Excellent Post Joe. -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:08:11 (EDT)
__ __ Jim S. -:- Excellent,plus a question for M... -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:46:53 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Excellent, EXCELLENT post Joe -:- Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:09:07 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- ***BEST OF FORUM***Once Again, Joe... -:- Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:15:15 (EDT)


Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 20:19:25 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Idea?
Message:
Hmmmmmm?
[ http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=louella&id=9097.3018997344266 ]
[ Graphic Link ]
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 21:00:45 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Yes Bar, it's a GOOD idea
Message:
Barry,

The concept of a paid for advertisment and leading story is Fantastic.

We could start with magazines that featured the BigHead and his magical following many years ago. Your thought's are in the right direction.

I left a msg for you at AG as well. Got to go and try and get some study done. I'll use one of the computers later and lurk for awhile. Dude, I've got to get some studying going, it's half way through the semester.

Debster

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 11:40:17 (EDT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Yes Bar, it's a GOOD idea
Message:
Yes! Must study.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 17:35:24 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: EPO credibility and anonymous PAMs
Message:
There has been a lot of ooing and aahing over the recent post by ''PAM', the suposed recent exPam.

One of the things that damaged EPOs credibility in my eyes the most, while I was still a premie, was the credibility given to anonymous people claiming to be exPAMs or Malibu Moles. It seemed like nothing more than viscious gossip, aimed at ears who wanted to hear it and would not doubt it. And when such anonymous utterances were given such truthful stature, it threw the entire credibility of EPO into doubt for me. It made it a lot easier to ignore EPO, and to believe the cult appologists who are only too happy to undermine EPOs credibility at any and every opportunity.

I hope you will keep this in mind before including anymore anonymous posts on the EPO website itself. There is so much valuable, SUBSTANCIATED information on EPO, it would be a shame to have it denigrated by unsubstanciated gossip.

If ''PAM'' (he? she? non-stick cooking spray?) wants to be taken seriously, I recommend comming out of the closet, rather than trying to suck us into cult secrecy and intrigue. Without an identity, the words mean NOTHING. An anonymous anyone can say anything, and often does, as many of the cultweasels who post here have shown us. Where is the accountablity? It's too much like the cult.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 14:43:50 (EDT)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: CAC attacks
Message:
One reason that many ex-premies, including myself, have not revealed their identity here is that EV zealots have shown that they are capable of just about anything. Their next efforts will, no doubt, be even more ambitious than the CAC attacks, and I, for one, have already had more than enough EV bullshit in my life.
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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 16:11:01 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: Safety in Numbers
Message:
I don't want to try to convince anyone to reveal who they are if they don't want to do so, but in regard to the vicious attacks by the cult on ex-premies, like CAC, there is safety in numbers. The more people that 'come out' the more futile it would be for those cult fanatics to go after anyone.

Plus, the CAC matter backfired in the worst way possible. Not only did it not accomplish the blackmail intended, it made many of us more determined, if perhaps also a bit more saavy.

Plus, I have received quite a bit of anecdotal information that the CAC incident caused a fairly significant exodus from the upper echelons of the Maharaji cult. It wasn't the only thing, it was kind of the final straw for people to see that yes, they really are in a bizarre cult.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 15:29:02 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: Harrassment from premie zealots
Message:
That is exactly why they did CAC - to frighten those who have come out under their real names, and to intimidate those (like yourself) who are still anonymous, from stepping forward with your real name. If you feel you need to stay anonymous, I won't blame or judge you for it.

My partner of 20 years was listed on the CAC website, and much of my own personal information was displayed along with his. I felt the effects, it was horrible. It was hard-ball intimidation tactics, intended to frighten people into silence.

It did succeed... in convincing me that the cult was more evil than I ever imagined, and in making me mad as hell. My response was to create the Maharaji Watch
website.

If they try anything more ambitious, they risk exposing themelves. Let them. I think the CAC website actually horrified a lot of Premies. A glimpse of the nastiness behind the thing they are involved with. The CAC website was about as effective for propagation as the Patrick Haley hammer attack. And we won't let them forget it.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 18:36:29 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: Harrassment from premie zealots
Message:
Like I said in another thread, CAC was a page straight out of the Peoples Temple/Jim Jones playbook. This is exactly the kind of stuff those at the top of the Peoples Temple hierarchy did to those who had left the group and were publicly criticizing it. Don't believe me? Read Raven, by Tim Reiterman and John Jacobs.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:50:29 (EDT)
From: From some who knows
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: EPO credibility and anonymous PAMs
Message:
I recommend comming out of the closet, rather than trying to suck us into cult secrecy and intrigue. Without an identity, the words mean NOTHING. An anonymous anyone can say anything, and often does, as many of the cultweasels who post here have shown us. Where is the accountablity? It's too much like the cult.


---

Chuck,
When you have been a cult for 30 years or more and have been in a position of power, it can take many, many painfull years to remove your self.
From someone who is going thru that process.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 05:56:45 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: From some who knows
Subject: Serious accusations and credibility...
Message:
What I actually said was:

''If ''PAM'' (he? she? non-stick cooking spray?) wants to be taken seriously, I recommend comming out of the closet, rather than trying to suck us into cult secrecy and intrigue. Without an identity, the words mean NOTHING. An anonymous anyone can say anything, and often does, as many of the cultweasels who post here have shown us. Where is the accountablity? It's too much like the cult.''

You, or PAM, or anyone can post anonymously, I'm not telling you what to do. I'm not even telling you what I think you SHOULD do.

The point I was making, was that in order to be taken seriously, anonymity is a hinderence.

I read PAMs post, with as much interest as anyone else. Laughed at the cow poop story, thought the part about Jagdeo (a rather serious accusation against the cult) COULD be important, only it couldn't be, in that context. Because PAMs anonymous post was gossip. By gossip I mean, we don't know the source, therefore we can't judge the reliability of the source, therefore, what was said might, all or in part, be true, or, it might not be.

As an ex-premie I found the gossip mildly interesting, but nothing to get excited about. As a Premie, which I still was serveral months ago, I would have dismissed it as nothing, probably lies, if anything. The CACweasels who post here said as much, and I have to say I understand why.

You said:

Chuck,
When you have been a cult for 30 years or more and have been in a position of power, it can take many, many painfull years to remove your self.

I don't doubt that at all. You do what you need to do, when you want to, when your ready. I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything. I posted here anonymously for a few weeks at first. I know some people who continue to post anonymously here. They have their reasons. They often reveal their real identities to others here that they trust, or know from the past.

You or PAM may wish to do the same, and that's fine. If PAM does that, she may gain some credibility with people who are permitted to know. But until she's ready to reveal her identity, it will be hard for many of us, and especially for premies, to consider her information more than gossip; possibley true, but questionable, at best. Especially in the eyes of premies. That's just my observation, of how I see it working, not a judgement of anyones decision to remain anonymous.

I think Jim and Francesca, in their posts below, understood what I was getting at. I'm not trying to discredit PAM, but am saying EPO needs to be careful about enshrining any information from unknown sources, to protect the integrity of OUR credibility. I hope you can understand it in that light, and not see it as assault on your choice to remain anonymous.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 07:12:39 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: The best compromise
Message:
Chuck

would be to leave it where it is, as a post in the archives for anyone to read if they search the archives, and 'enshrine' it , as you put it, when PAM comes out, so to speak.

That way it can only be judged as what it is at present.....an anonymous post. I actually BELIEVE (not KNOW) it's genuine and others probably DISBELIEVE it's genuine.If and when PAM comes out, we'll have a bit more to go on.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 14:28:26 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Sounds good to me, Dermot
Message:
I'm not trying to silence or prevent people from posting information anonymously. I'm just cautioning against getting over-excited about information from anyonymous sources.
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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 15:10:58 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Ditto, Dermot and Chuck... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:40:02 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: From some who knows
Subject: The power was all you your head mate
Message:
Clarity can come and go in a second.

Confusion usually takes a little longer...

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 03:41:20 (EDT)
From: From someone who knows
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Thank you
Message:
David ,
Thanks I had forgotten about that self-righteous arrogance that people who think they have the one and only answer exude. I never want to go there again. Ever.
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Date: Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 23:35:43 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: From someone who knows
Subject: Me Too!
Message:
:(
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:52:35 (EDT)
From: Mr Dooley
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Your regurgitation
Message:
What's really sad is that you think what you just said is your thought and not paraphraising Herr Rawat....I remember being proud of what IT said
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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 00:42:26 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Mr Dooley
Subject: Uh oh! Unfriendly fire!
Message:
You're right Dooly, I should learn to speak for myself.....it was pompous and presumtuous to talk like that here.

I just remember that my (rather limited) experience of 'power' in the cult circles was really just all in my imagination. I actually believed that for a moment or two I was SOMEBODY!

Power tripped badly at prep school when made a 'monitor' for the first time. Within half an hour of term starting I'd busted this youg boy for standing on his desk dancing. What creep I was, but the guilt from that incident prevented me from anything so low again.

I felt my cult based power trips were merely the exercising of my 'saintly side' for all the world to see and admire. Delusion knows no bounds apparently...

SC - running across the lawn, scrambling through the hedge and shinning up the nearest beech treee.....

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:10:05 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: What about....
Message:
Chuck,

I don't think it matters too much that Pam is anonymous.

There are accounts of the Captain's behaviour given by people using their own names, like Michael Dettmers, Mike Donner etc.

Anyone who doesn't like anonymous stuff can read things by people with their real name.

I suspect not. I also suspect I have edited this post to cover up my embarassment about not reading your post properly in the first place.

Ah well, you can't win em' all. Sorry Chuck. Thanks Jim and Francesca.

Good luck to anyone else trying to make sense of this thread now I've changed my post completely.

Anth Ginn the confused time warp.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:47:32 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Uh oh! Friendly fire!
Message:
Anth,

What's up? That was Chuck posting. Chuck as in 'Chuck'. You know. I think you missed his point. He's not trying to discredit Pam so much as deal with the fact that anonymity really does drain the hell out of the credibility of a witness. It doesn't matter so much if the person's just talking about their experiences as a general rank and file premie but when they start making specific allegations those allegations aren't going to mean anywhere near as much if the witness is anonymous. I agree.

In this case, however, Pam's not quite anonymous in that Katie's supposedly talked with him or her and is satisfied they're on the up-and-up. That's better than nothing although Pam's real credibility will only come with a name, I think.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:08:41 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Pam is in contact with several exes by email
Message:
Today I was told by one of Pam's ex-premie correspondents that she is not willing to post anymore stuff because I outed her as being in Australia using my privilege as asst FA. That is not true. My job is to make sure that the forum is not spammed by anonymous premie trolls. When one appears I trace it.

I did not bother to trace Pam as it was obvious that she was not a troll. I got the idea that she was posting from Australia from her own words. For instance she says: 'The only exception was when an instructor had to be spirited out of Australia some years ago following a sexual incident.'

Methinks the lady doth protest too much and just did not like the idea that I was not fawning over an anonymous Pam but called her a pompous windbag. The excuse offered for her anonymity is that Donner and Dettmers were out of the cult for ages before posting under their real names. What about Mike Finch? He had only just left the cult when he posted under his real name. I hope that Pam does not want the very same special treatment and secrecy that she criticizes in the cult.

Like Chuck, I read the forum for a while before posting here and dismissed it as mostly the ravings of anonymous whiners. It was not until Dettmers posted that Chuck, Francesca and I began to take it seriously. I already took the Mishler stuff on EPO seriously but the forum was not credible.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:56:26 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Pat - ditto re: Dettmers
Message:
Anonymity is definitely dodgy.. say's she who did it for ages (!). But it damages any credibilty this forum has IMO xxx
Love Moley (ie Madeleine Simon ex-Newcastle-upon-Tyne, England community). But whom is called Moley in real-life(wotever that is!)now
Moley somewot the worse for cider and Jacobs Creek
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 20:29:40 (EDT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Anonymous? Moi?
Message:
I don't want to get too preachy about it but...it is one thing for us former cult peons to post about personal stuff anonymously but quite another to publish inside info gathered by someone in a privileged position on the cult.

If the person is not yet ready to sign their real name then, IMO, they are not yet ready to publish. Anonymous accusations only damage the ex-premies' credibility. They are not doing us any favors by publishing anonymously.

Besides, as you and I and many others who were formerly anonymous discovered, signing one's real name not only increases one's self-respect it frees one of the paranoia of cult secrecy and lies.

How are you? And what the devil is Jacob's Creek?

Oops, I almost didn't sign this with my real name: Patrick Conlon.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 21:45:27 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: A Smooth velvety taste
Message:
jacobs creek that is. Cabernet Sauvignon - Australian, but French really, according to Nige, who knows more about such matters than moi.

Yep - agree and agree - let it all out in the open - the only way to go. Will email yer soon xxx

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:51:23 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: It's not French Moley!
Message:
I dunno, maybe it's different in UK but here in OZ (at the source) Jacob's Creek is an el cheapo wine one only buys on a dark night of financial desperation. To be avoided at all costs except in the dying embers of a party at 4.45am when even lighter fluid will do.

SC/David R - an obnoxious arsehole while anonimous.
An obnoxious arsehole after anonimity. Nothing changes.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 23:01:42 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Funny you should mention dying embers
Message:
Reminds me of something to do with a cult. Anyway - Jacobs Creek IS French-owned, just grown in Aussie-land (the sauce). And it's bloody expensive here!

Hey - obnoxious aresholes are fine by me David ...
You can be wotever you want when you're not in a cult...
Go for it - you only live once
Moley
xxx

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Date: Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 00:02:45 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: We should do business Moley!
Message:
I can get Jacob's Creek for $70 a case.

That's about 35 Quid?

How much is a case in England?

Do you know what the inport duty would be into UK?

If it's reasonable we could be onto a nice little earner!

SC - ever the entrepeneaur :)

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 20:34:07 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Methinks Jacob Creek is Wine
Message:
PatC,

I don't agree that a person should not post till they're ready. Posting, even anomymously is a step in committment. It says, I'm over the line and on my way. If a person has topost their name before publishing, they may never start. If they know, they'll be called to "fess up" before they've heard their own voice for the first time in maybe 30 yrs., they may never have the chance. I think that attitude is intimidating.
Can't we supporta well written and non-apologetic post? Let's help people get the ball rolling.
Good thing some started RE.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 12:15:42 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Good post, Deborah
Message:
Thanks - and my sentiments exactly (I wrote my post a few threads above before reading yours - your title was somewhat misleading to say the least! :))

Love,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:05:52 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Journeys vs. forum posts
Message:
I don't agree that a person should not post till they're ready. Posting, even anomymously is a step in committment. It says, I'm over the line and on my way. If a person has topost their name before publishing, they may never start. If they know, they'll be called to 'fess up' before they've heard their own voice for the first time in maybe 30 yrs., they may never have the chance. I think that attitude is intimidating.
Can't we supporta well written and non-apologetic post? Let's help people get the ball rolling.

Deb: a Journeys entry has a permanent place on EPO. It's not the same thing as posting on the forum. Not remotely. We have seen many hit-and-run premie threads here. Karl's fiction smells like a hit-and-run journey. If he won't reply to the webmaster's email then fuck him, I say. He can't care that much about any of this so why should anyone else?

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 19:07:06 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Hi Nigel, I see your point, but.
Message:
...this topic is muddled with the outcry of PAM's anomymity which was a forum post. That's why I'm a little one-sided. But, thanks for detangling the point, it is clearly two sepereate issues.

I agree that Journals should be OUT-oriented.

My two cents: posts from anomymous posters should be respectful, and non-inflammatory and relative to the purpose of the forum. Other than that, why not?

An anomymous post that delivers the dope or acknowledgement of it, is like watching a trailer to a movie. Only, you don;t know who the actors are yet?

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 02:20:15 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Karl did reply to me
Message:
Karl did reply, and gave his surname. We had an exchange of emails discussing exactly the same issues discussed here since I published his journey. If I thought he was a premie plant I wouldn't have done so.

John.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 04:46:04 (EDT)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Ok, thanks John..
Message:
..no slur on your judgement intended.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 21:42:29 (EDT)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Jacob Creek Runs Through Boone's Farm.. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 20:45:46 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: As I just said to Mr Dooley above...
Message:
...anonymity is fine if you are not revealing inside info or making incriminating allegations against Rawat and his cult. As for us former cult peopns with nothing juicy to share - who cares?

I had to out myself because I made a serious allegation (an aspirant suicide) which was met with hoots of derision until I posted under my real name.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:52:57 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A bit of quick spin.
Message:
Jim,

What are you talking about? I never said anything of the sort. You must have misread my post. Maybe you should check it again.

Anth never shy of a quick edit to hide all traces of his stupidity.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:43:59 (EDT)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, Chuck is an EX
Message:
He's just trying to give you his impression as he remembers how he felt when he was someone who had not yet exited the cult. I had exited the cult years ago, and anything that was anonymous would not have impressed me either.

On the same token, the PAMs will have to stay anonymous until they can come out, and that's just the way it's going to be--caught between two worlds.

There's a place for everyone here, but I think what gets enshrined on EPO should be well documented. It is too easy for premies or even exes to dismiss the stuff. Some exes don't realize what a cult they were in until they read some of the stuff on EPO.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know Chuck lost the master-thing over a year ago.

Bests,

F

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:56:18 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Francesca ~)
Subject: Thanks F Sorry C
Message:
time for bed said zeberdee.

(Don't forget to sign the petition to clone Elvis. See post below to Stonor.)

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:33:25 (EDT)
From: Mr. Dooley
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: What about....
Message:
your rudeness. It was a perfectly legitimate post.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:54:38 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mr. Dooley
Subject: Yes, sorry about that (nt)
Message:
However, I think I've covered my tracks by now.

Phew. that was close.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 22:26:59 (EDT)
From: Mr. Dooley
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Yes, sorry about that (nt)
Message:
I think it's just teacher syndrome....we think we've heard it...it encumbers listening skills
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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 04:23:36 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mr. Dooley
Subject: Dooley. Report to my room at 4pm.
Message:
Now then Dooley,

We don't expect pupils of your intelligence to take that tone when addressing a teacher. I'm a bit disappointed in your behaviour and have written a letter to your parents, suggesting that if we don't see an improvement in your attitude, we may have to think about curtailing some of your libertys.

Now you know if it wasn't for teachers you wouldn't be able to read and write. And now, having taught you these essential life skills, you turn them back on us, biting the rod that feeds you.

I don't know.

No playtime for two weeks.

Mr Ginn. Art and Drama.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:19:30 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hey Anth! (ot)
Message:
Just got emailed a link today that I'd wanted to include in my last post to you over at AG ... where have you been?

I'm going to email Paul Bourke back to ask him if he knows which neolythic settlement, and if there's a date ... scroll to the bottom. I find it fascinating! :)

Have a great weekend!

Anna
[ 5 Platonic Solids represented in stone from >a neolythic settlement ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:23:57 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: One for you Anna. (ot)
Message:
Hi Anna,

been offline for a while visiting my sick mum up North.

Check this one out and sign the petition.

Bonne weekend.

Anth the clone.
[ Petition to Clone Elvis. ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:20:17 (EDT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Thanks Anth! (ot)
Message:
It's such a relief to know that while most are losing their heads, some have managed to keep their priorities straight! Long live-again the KING!!! Bush move over!!!

Hope your mum is feeling better!

Anna, the aren't-you-glad-she-hasn't-been-cloned.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 16:08:04 (EDT)
From: Michigander
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Anyone Remember this?
Message:
From: Council foR the Eruptive Anticipation of the Marvelous (CREAM)

Demands:

· End to all suffering, pain and hostility immediately.
· Money should grow on trees.
· God must clean house; no pollution.
· No more work; let the angels do it.
· Extend the life-span of people, with perpetual youth.
· Large mountains in Michigan
· No more gravity, let people fly!
· No more winter.
· Free the Devil and all political prisoners.
· No mosquitoes.
· Abolition of all private property, bosses and government!
· More money for teeth from the Good Fairy.
· No more premature orgasms.
· Communications with all civilizations in the Universe.
PEACE, PEACE, PEACE, PEACE, PEACE, PEACE, PEACE

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 16:46:50 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Michigander
Subject: To Nigel - check this
Message:
Free the Devil and all political prisoners

Yeeeoooow!

Nige, check this for synchronicity -

In response to the above post, I entered 'Free the Devil and all political prisoners' into my search engine.

Guess what came up? ONLY ONE entry - THIS (click here and follow the yellow brick road'

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 09:14:05 (EDT)
From: Michigander
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: To Nigel - check this
Message:
Ahhh, yes. Very good, grasshoppa. Stay tuned, more to come on this very subject.
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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 23:53:18 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Michigander
Subject: Michigander
Message:
Were you a Michigander when this happened? I was. If so, do we know each other?

Kalamazoo Marianne

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 17:30:40 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Thanks Chris - quite a coincidence..
Message:
..as long as we bear in mind the equally impressive 15 million or so coincidences not happening at any given moment...

But I appreciated the skeptic.com link below, Chris. I'd like to find a way of incorporating Shermer's critical thinking approach re. the paranormal into my own classroom stuff, if I can get round the powers that be..

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 16:41:53 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Michigander
Subject: Wasn't Disraeli Gears was it ...
Message:
http://users.pandora.be/ecla/
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 17:44:13 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: no,it was yippie Soupy Sales
Message:
like dat rugu simple simon who met da...
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:45:20 (EDT)
From: Mr. dooley
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Soupy was da man
Message:
You got to hand it to a guy who would go on his kid's tv show and say,'ok kiddies, I want you to go into your mommie's purse and send me all the green pieces of paper you find'....of course he was shit canned for doing it butttttt
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 15:04:39 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: audio message for EV Inc re. child abuse
Message:
CLICK HERE - http://www.law.indiana.edu:80/sounds/reportkid.au
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:45:33 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: Collective high vs. ecstacy
Message:
If you were in the cult for any length of time, you may have experienced the 'Collective High.' This ususally revolved around 'festivals' aka programs where jet-lag, lack of protein, sleep deprivation, brainwashing and the single-mindedness of the group created a euphoric feeling in the average cult follower. I remember being extremely elevated on numerous occasions. Afterward, there would be a severe crash.

Ecstacy users release a heavy dose of endorphines. Think of turning the runner's high on for a few hours. The endorphin level for a straight person might be drip, drip; the experience of ecstacy users could be likened to hooking a firehose to the endorphin supply. Repeated use of this drug depletes the limited lifetime supply. If the supply is exhausted, the individual is doomed to a bleak life--no more normal highs. Many require drug therapy just to maintain a low level of satisfaction from life.

Do you think we did the same thing when we gave ourselves over to this collective high in Maharaji's Whirrled of Knowledge? It sure was fun, but the crash afterward could be dreadful. I have never been as high since--or as low.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:01:12 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: The reverse for me gail
Message:
I hated the festivals with a vengeance, only used them to smash my own concepts/barriers.

My ecstacy came from meditation, and no crash, but after years I did get ridiculously oversensitive in a number of perceptual modes.

Re e's, only an occasional user meself, but know loads of people who caned it hard, like every weekend for years, and minimal after effects, all the research I've seen is that it's one of the safest drugs around, IF you're not new to chemicals and are 16 etc, coke/charlie, now that's another matter, and I'm not talking nose jobs either.
Of cvourse there will be individuals, every drug affects somebody, but if you're looking at stats it's one of the safest around.
Between 2 and 4% of the uk population do it every weekend, been true for ten years so there's plenty of research fodder here.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:16:47 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Save personal e-mail from premie trolls
Message:
I've given this advice to several people, but save all personal e-mails from premie trolls. And if you write back to them telling them to leave you alone, save those too. Make a folder for them so they aren't commingled and lost among your other e-mails.

Saying things to people on a public forum is neither cyberstalking nor harassment. I don't always like everything that is said to me, but that's the nature of Forums. (By "harassment" here I mean legally actionable harassment, not the general term.)

However, sending people personal e-mails that they did not solicit, and continuing to contact a person when they've asked to be left alone is harassment.

It takes a smaller amount of threatening e-mails [as opposed to merely annoying e-mails] to constitute harassment. So the nature of the e-mail is a factor. However, repetition of merely annoying e-mails constitutes harassment if there are enough of them. You can't wait until you've gotten 10 e-mails that you don't want from some troll who is obsessed with you. Do it now.

That's my advice. You never know when you might need the evidence.

Besides, EPO might decide to make a page of worst of premie troll harassment e-mails or something, and give us all a laugh.

Cheers,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:54:41 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Premie troll harassment Page
Message:
Hi Francesca,

I think that is an excellent idea. To have a Premie harrassment page to get the new visitors' attention. Also, Vicki wrote an interesting post on 'harrassing premies for money' the service handbook on how to con (coherce) money in 10 easy steps as well as the semantic games EV/maha play to get around selling tickets.

That type of stuff also deserves it's own page with an encouragement for any body who has ever been told 'how-to' or scolded because of 'not doing it right' stories. We need to counterbalance the dreadful Anderson files.

See around,

Deborah

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:16:28 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New Journeys Entry
Message:
Karl the Lifeguard tells us very little about his journey, and advises us that 'there was no brainwashing', although satsang was a bit tedious at times.

Seriously, I exchanged emails with this guy to get him to read the site and understand why we bother doing this, and to get him to tell us a little more about his time as a premie, but no luck. I had a debate with myself about whether to post the journey but as I'm sensitive about censorship, here it is. Maybe he'll join in the debate.

John.
[ Karl's journey ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:46:35 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Forward it to 'Life's Great'.
Message:
Karl is a premie John.

Anth the don't publish and be damned.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:22:57 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: Definitely still a premie (fake or genuine)
Message:
John - this isn't even a personal account of the guy's journey away from knowledge. Why he left or anything. I'd say without corroboration that this is no-longer-practising lifeguard or whatever, is full of cult bullshit. To include his journey alongside the others here would be an insult to those real contributors.

The lack of response to your email is telling.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:35:14 (EDT)
From: Mr. Dooley
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Agree-it's got that Rawat Stench [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:18:43 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Very 'convenient'
Message:
Leaves Maharaji almost as soon as he got K .....therefore no trail to pick up .....then stumbles upon him again this month.

Does anyone know the 'names' he mentions in his PS?

His slant on things would slot in quite cozily on 'pleaseconsiderthiswholesalerevisionism.com'

My initial guess is it's fiction but of course that's just a guess. Maybe he's genuine.

As to whether to include it or not in the entries.....tricky one.If he's a genuine person with a genuine story, I guess so.Personally, I'd try to verify his name and story first.

Smells fishy.......but you never know.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 02:15:23 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Its a valid journey
Message:
very interesting. things are not always black or white.. and I think its good that the journeys reflect a variety of perspectives. We dont all have to come to the same conclusion as one person...

In my humble, there should not be a party line on journeys - because sometimes even the journey to maharaji will be just as interesting as the fleeing.. and may strike a chord with someone.

Carls journey is very welcome for me.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:19:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I wouldn't keep that one
Message:
It's not a matter of censorship, John. But the Journey's section is not the right place for this guy's post which is, in fact, just an apology for Maharaji. There are lots and lots of lapsed or inactive premies who aren't ex-premies. He's one.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:22:14 (EDT)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: lapsed or inactive premies who aren't ex-premies
Message:
lapsed or inactive premies who aren't ex-premies.

Jim, can you expand on your distinctions ? To me, a lapsed or inactive or ex premie means the same thing.

Yet you clearly distinguish (you can be one without being the other). Can you be more explicit what you see these distinctions to be ?

-- Mike

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:14:40 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: lapsed vs. exl-premiesremies
Message:
I think there is a distinct difference between an ex-premie and an inactive premie. The ex-premie is working to rid him/herself of the indoctrination whereas the inactive premie could reactivate into a premie zealot at anytime (probably when a life crisis hits). Think of the non-practising Catholic. One might take a 35-year hiatus and return like the prodical son at a family funeral.

The ex-premie realizes that (s)he was duped and makes effort to take some responsibility for the belief in fairy tales.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:10:49 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Arguable even some ex-premies are still premies
Message:
For me it's not just about rejecting gm, even analysing why, you can still walk away from that with the same mentality, if I come here to this site straight after a drum & bass night, I 'smell' premie here straightaway, in small doses compared to 'lifes great', but still noticeable.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 15:57:58 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Ex-Premies
Message:
Karl and premie lurkers need to be reminded that many of us exes are right now engaged in some kind of spiritual practice. (In all cases a more honest and probably deeper one.) And, in fact, this is one of the reasons we are eager to speak up about Maharaji on this site. We see a boy-man who exploits others for his selfish reasons; we don't see an inspired guru.

Sure, many of us had authentic spiritual experiences while premies (some exes think it was all bullshit, though) - but it had much more to do with what we brought to the table than who M was.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:17:47 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Arguable that's true for any 'spiritual practice'
Message:
Not disputing what you say gregg, but it's not the only issue here, and although there's no point in following this through honestly with the new censorship policy here, there are much wider issues that carry a lot more social importance than mr lightning greaseball the dollar man, and I'm not just referring to the war issue and the cultic aspects of bin laden.

But then what's the point, no arguments allowed, no dissension or bad vibes in the place, but I know I'm in a minority on this one so ces't la vie.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 02:21:26 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: hamzen
Subject: Hamzen, a question from something you said.
Message:
Do you still meditate with the 4 techniques or do a different spiritual practice?
Hamzen, I read your journey and can see from what you said that in many ways you had good enough sense not to fall into the pitfalls of ashram life and premiedom. Something you said above intriqued me and I have a question. If you think it's too personal please email me.
You talked about the premie smell here and perhaps you can recognize that better than most. Was your ex-wife one of those type premies? See, I'm married to a kinda recent ex-premie and in many ways I'm sick of waiting for him to finally wake up! He seems to have permanently halted his ability to take a good hard look in the mirror and claim ownership for issues that he needs to deal with/work on/change. In short he's not evolving. He seems stuck in premie mode without being a premie. I hope I am making some sense. In other words, he smells like a premie and yet isn't. Arrested developement, wordly responsibilities often too difficult to deal with. Any ideas on why this happens? He was a premie for a long, long, time. Just your average, rank and file types. Never in the ashram.
I'm thinking of putting a hit of acid or something in his drink but that wouldn't be too nice without his permission.
Thought you might be able to give me your thoughts on this.
And what is the censorship here? Must of missed that little change.

Regards, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:32:36 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: To Tonette...
Message:
Hi Tonette,

I'm trying to start this post and don't want to give advice, oh, shit, I will anyway...())

I don't know you or your husband, but if he is stuck, he's stuck. As a married woman for 20 years I've learned that just because I'm married doesn't mean I can change my husband and make him different to suit me. That doesn't mean I have to accept the flaws in him which irritate me or create problems, but that I try to be patient (I have plenty of flaws, too).

I've learned that all people have different rates of growth; relationships of all kinds tend to make those who are a bit slower in the growing department glaringly obvious.

Maybe your husband is afraid to face his realization that he picked out a cult leader to love and follow. Maybe he's stuck on a particular mind-f**k of the cult that scares him or prevents him from taking steps. On particular issues with my hubby (never a premie) I've gotten frustrated over the years to the point that my only resort was the 'ole tomato. But marriages can't be based on ultimatums (ultimati?), either. With strong but loving nudges you may get him out of his stasis to take a look at what's freezing his growth.

My husband has done the same for me. The confrontation can be done without risk of losing the relationship. For us, we usually have a fight, then we talk a lot. We try to fight fair and not push the buttons that are wounding to eachother because we are best friends, too.

Free advice....worth what you pay for it!

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 03:35:37 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Poking my nose in, Tonette
Message:
Well, what do you expect? I read all your posts. The censorship problem is that OT posts are verboten and the forum fuhrer vill schniptz off our threads if ve don't talk about M and K.

But seriously, Gerry decided to rebel against the war and politics which threatened to take over the forum permanently and create a civil war between the feelgoodies and the old-fogies like me. Chuck then offered AG as a place for politics and other OT stuff.

I think ham is being a bit melodramatic about ''censorship.'' It's not like most of us are watching what we say and never discuss OT's. It's just that the OTs were getting out of proportion here and are now getting aired on AG.

Now this topic about your hubby - is that OT? You seem to think it's because he he's still stuck in premie ways. I think it's because he's probably just stuck in the seventies, his late teens and early twenties.

Many men, most of whom have never been premies, are permanent teens. If your hubby was a hippie type teen maybe he is just an easy-going, unambitious type of guy and doesn't really want to think too deeply about anything - a go with the flow kind of guy, one of the feelgood types. And maybe you're just an old-fogy like me.

It may have nothing to do with being an unenthusiastic expremie. Maybe he was never a very enthusiastic premie. Exes seem to have generally been quite gungho premies unlike the current PWKs who have gone with the flow for 30 years and didn't even notice the lies and revisionism creeping in.

Anyway, hope you didn't mind me poking my nose in.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:28:15 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Smelly premies
Message:
Ham,

I smell some truth in what you say, but could you expand on your ability to smell premies? And how does drum and bass affect your sense of smell anyway?:-)

John who sometimes smells

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:30:24 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: You got me chuckling there john
Message:
One of the benefits of having met some people here is that you can see their dry ironic, facial inflexions in their posts!

I should add that I have no sense of smell, but it has great metaphorical importance to me, and I use it because it's so hard to define but is nonetheless very powerful, so what is that premie 'smell'
an attitude, an acquiescence with authority, an over politeness that 'smells' a bit fake, a naivete, an inability to admit how much of this shit we brought on ourselves in some instances, a bit 'pc' if you like, a mild form of autism,

and as for d&b, and most house music of quality, a skin alive in your faceness, as is, no bollox, really alive, deep biological rhythms being triggered, the smell of sweat and sex, but most importantly, SERIOUSLY FUCKING GROUNDED, roots music where even the pink is salmon pink

So there ya go:)

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:42:40 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Let me answer
Message:
Mike,

In the old days there were practising premies, non-practising premies, and non-premies. There were also occasional mention of manmuts (sp?) but the idea of anyone becoming one was so fearful, we didn't think about it. All non-practising premies were temporarily non-practising and would come back to the fold one day. As Maharaji said, he hasn't lost anyone yet.

Now we have a new category - ex-premie. To my mind, an ex-premie is someone who has examined their time as a follower of Maharaji, and has rejected Maharaji as a teacher, Satguru, Perfect Master, or Supreme Power in Person. People who have had no involvement in years come to EPO and say that after reading EPO they start an unravelling process that hadn't happened in the years after they lapsed.

So, yes, I agree with Jim that there is a big difference between a lapsed premie and an ex-premie, and I also agree that Karl may be a lapsed premie. I raised with him this very point that he may still be a premie when I was debating putting his journey on line. He emphatically stated he was definitely an ex-premie.

John.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:03:52 (EDT)
From: Mr. Dooley
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes and
Message:
the category of lapsed premie is much much larger in numbers than the practicing cult members and ex-premie population combined. They still may have a dormant virus/bacteria so are still susceptible to exposure. Most of them would take the view of taking the good and moving on or tragically blaming their own shortcomings for failing. Both of these rationalizations are easier to accept than admitting they fell for a ludicrous God con.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:20:25 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com
To: Mr. Dooley
Subject: Re: Yes and
Message:
No kidding. It is really painful to admit you feel for the con. It is much easier to tuck that era into the back of your mind with the intent of facing it in the future (I'll practise K when the kids are grown up.').
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 00:45:47 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: I wouldn't keep that one
Message:
I completely agree with Jim. This is a sort of rant about the ex-premies, as well as a blantant misunderstanding of what Maharaji was/is about. I never heard of Maharaji saying we are all God. I only heard that Maharaji was God. Quite a difference...

Has this guy every posted here? What he has to say is fine, I just don't believe this man is an ex-premie, but someone who probably stumbled on the cult and left.

Particularly irritating about it is that he lectures ex-premies about the EPO website, etc., etc...

Whatever, I don't consider this a journey in the sense of exiting a cult.

Just some more of my ramblings,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:03:45 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: All good reasons for keeping it
Message:
You are probably right Jim and Cynthia but, unlike the cult websites, it feels nice and righteous to include stuff from those with whom we may not agree.

However I think it would be necessary to object if EPO were flooded with stuff from obvious cult apologists posing as lapsed premies - which of course is the latest fashion among the really hip PWKs who have received the fifth technique.

Karl may be for real but the writing is very good and the spin is quite slick however I don't think any cult apologist would be so subtle except for ....please David R tell me that you didn't invent Karl.

If the writing were not so good I would be convinced that it is not a hoax. But such good writing belongs to a clever person and most clever people would not be sentimentalizing Rawat unless they were in a cult.

I hope that you are checking the authenticity of the submissions, John. If you get too many Journeys in the same vein I hope you will check the writers out and make sure they aren't CACweasels.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:58:31 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Me no Karl invent
Message:
No, too much USA/Italy info for me to pull that one off Pat. Actually the piece seems more suited to 'pleasconsiderthis' than ex-premie 'journeys' library. Interesting, I know what you mean about subtle spin and well written, fifth tec etc.

I guess it represents the great majority of exes who remain silent most of the time, at least I imagine that's how the post is supposed to appear if indeed it is a spin.

I'm distracted at this time, having got my newly fitted out Schecter back today complete with Classic PAF, Twin Rails and 'Fred' Dimarzio pick-ups. I was absolutely delighted when I played it at home because the sounds are damn close to what I imagined when I was mulling over the catalogue deciding on the line up, from a huge range of possibilities. The PAF sounds just like a 58 Les Paul, the Twin Rails like a 60's Strat and the Fred, well, that just shreds! To say I'm a happy chappy would be understating it because I can really get on with the job now like never before, especially when I was attempting to behave like a 'spiritually aware' cult member who never dared so much as raise an eyebrow let alone turn a 100 watt amp up over 1.5 Now I wind the thing up to 7 and go...fucking take it or leave it world, I'm cook'n!

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:37:21 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Hi, David
Message:
You said: ''I guess it represents the great majority of exes who remain silent most of the time, at least I imagine that's how the post is supposed to appear if indeed it is a spin.''

The vast majority of premies who are no longer involved with M are really lapsed premies not exes. Exes, as John explained to Mike Finch above, really have made a conscious effort to cut all ties to M and not simply drifted away.

I'm pleased that you understood how it could be spin a la cerise: ''I'm not in a cult but M is nice etc.''

But it does not have your inimitable tone of voice. I was kidding.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:41:56 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Consumer
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Gee SC
Message:
Wow, I bought some new shoes today, and they fit and everything! I bought some new guitar strings, too, and they work, just like I thought they would!! Life is Greet!
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 23:12:55 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Mickey the Consumer
Subject: No it isn't
Message:
This morning is a different story. I had too much good bud and Wolf Blass last night and at 8am this guy comes to fit the new gas stove. Great idea yes, and her ladyship is wildly excited (it's a stainless steel Technika) but bloody noisy and annoying when your trying to hide from the day. Finally I got up and sneaked into my office to begin cyberstalking, I can hear the guy outside and in the kitchen but am too oversensitizied and tired to face him with aplomb.
Ain't life a bitch?

SC - who has more money than sense

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 23:51:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Oh please, do you have any pictures?
Message:
SC,

I'm just dying to see your new stove, if you don't mind. That was one of them expensive ones, w'un't it? Good for you!

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 00:51:28 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Actually yes....several colour glossies
Message:
Aw common Jimbo, I thought you'd see what I'm on about.

Ok, I understand..you had a hard night and now have a fuzzy head too, eh.

Don't tell me... my subtle 'moneysang' is going over your head?
Oh well...

Now, tell me (serious interest here) what pick ups do you use in your fav guitars? I just upgraded, with super results.

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:24:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: Actually yes....several colour glossies
Message:
David,

The funny thing is I don't know or soon forget what pickups I use. Seems like all my axes are jumbles of stocks and the usual suspects. I've got some pretty heavy something-or-others in my LP and my strat -- forgive me, ONE of my strats -- has a burning hot rails in the lead slot I've been enjoying.

But, to tell you the truth, Lifes [sic] not been all that Great recently and I've been forced to burn a few guitars for firewood. Oh well, eh?

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Date: Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 23:53:54 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Youur kidding!
Message:
yes, course you are, you would sell an axe first - then burn it!

I had 'regular' pickups in my Schecter except for the 'Fred' which still outshreds anything else I have (but totally sucks on a clean channel) whereas the PAF and the twin rails are sweet as honey pie in clean mode but also kick butt overdriven.

I'm really glad I spent more on them than the guitar cost in the first place. he he
My strat has active emg's - clean a s whistle though I find the humbucker a little bassy....

SC - still trying to wrestle a cast-off McInturrf from CD :)

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:21:21 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Did you miss ...
Message:
this ...

I haven't forgotten what you said in response to my post to your despicable 'Cerise' invention. Have you done the decent thing and apologised?

Pardon me for asking if you have.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 23:31:30 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'we are all god' was NEVER rawats message. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:56:58 (EDT)
From: Paul Simon
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: True
Message:
...lie la lie
still a man hears
what he wants to hear
and disregards the rest...

lie la lie lie lie lie lie lie
lie lie lie....

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 14:04:54 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Paul Simon
Subject: Maybe so but
Message:
I was nearly always doing the pulse bubble of 'holy name' when he was speaking, and only the statements of his that were zen'ish, or 'you too can all have this experience' registered.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:57:15 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Updated Jouneys Entry
Message:
Alain has added several warnings from the bible about false prophets to his journeys entry. I personally like this one:-

1 Timothy 6:3 If someone spreads false teachings2 and does not agree with sound words (that is, those of our Lord Jesus Christ) and with the teaching that accords with godliness, 6:4 he is conceited and understands nothing, but has an unhealthy interest in controversies and verbal disputes. This gives rise to envy, dissension, slanders, evil suspicions, 6:5 and constant bickering by people corrupted in their minds and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a way of making a profit.

So if you disagree and wish to debate, you are conceited and understand nothing.

Well, there you are.

John the conceited and understands nothing
[ Alain's updated journey ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:27:10 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Bloody religious books :)
Message:
...nothing but hubble, bubble, toil and struggle....

Hi Alain, I was brought up a Roman Catholic but happily found there wasn't a god after all .......it's all explained neatly in this book I read :)

Good luck and regards to your wife and daughter.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:14:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Charmingly christian and quaint but....
Message:
...absolutely sincere. Alain is for real and, while his words may not strike a chord in me, I know that they will be appreciated by a few fence-sitters and exes whom I know privately to be Christians. They don't post here because there are too many clever atheists but at least they have seen through Rawat's scam.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:18:49 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New Journeys Entry
Message:
Karen does her bit to ensure that 'the Rawat family and servants won't be living in LA luxury at my expense anymore.'

John.
[ Karen's Journey ]

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 10:35:40 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: The long and winding road dadummm
Message:
that leads to EPO OH OH.....

Hi Karen .....all very relateable stuff you've written.

Best of luck in using your mind!!

Yeah, the embarrassment of being a 'true believer' for so long....

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:22:35 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks, Karen.
Message:
Many many Thanks, Karen. Your Journey was so beautifully written and so honest and down-to-earth. I would sure like to hear lots more from you. I wish you health and happiness.

Patrick Conlon

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 16:49:10 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Response to Erika Andersen Re Ashram
Message:
Some of you may have read Erika Andersen's disgusting spin on the Ashrams, which is on her website and entitled 'You Lived In A What?' and is dated August 8, 2001.

After I read it, the following just kind of spilled out of me. I have submitted it to her website, but given the censorship on the cult sites, I know it will never appear there. Anyhow, here it is:

Maharaji’s Ashrams

I am one of probably thousands of people who lived in one or more of Maharaji’s ashrams. Just to set the record straight, Maharaji’s ashrams were monastic institutions that Maharaji, himself, promoted as his gift to his followers as a means to dedicate our lives to him. The basic structure of the ashram was poverty, celibacy and obedience. We also lived by a schedule, starting with ARTI, along with prostration before a picture of Maharaji in the morning, and again in the evening, followed by meditation. We also had satsang every night, and “service” all day. All the money ashram residents earned was turned over to Maharaji’s organization and much of it went to Maharaji personally. There was also a set of “ashram rules” which Maharaji claims to have personally authored. All of Maharaji’s Initiators (Instructors) and Elan Vital Administrators were selected from among the ashram residents, as were Maharaji’s servants and personal staff.

As an ashram premie and devotee, you were available to be transferred to any place you were needed to do anything deemed necessary. You owned nothing; you did what you were told, and relationships, career, and any worldly interests, were verboten, unless directly related to your “service.” Your life belonged to Maharaji, who portrayed himself as the living incarnation of God, the living Perfect Master, and who exhorted us to surrender our lives to him. Many of us believed him and tried to do that, by means of his ashram. Physically, we lived in large, overcrowded, rented houses with no furniture; we slept on foam mats on the floor, ate vegetarian food, and mostly had underwear with holes in it.

Many people, including me, spent their 20s living in Maharaji’s ashram. I lived in the ashrams from 1974 to 1983. During that time, I mostly worked jobs out in “the world” and turned over every cent I earned. Part of the time I did “service” in Elan Vital, as either a bureaucrat at Elan Vital International Headquarters, as part of the army of unpaid workers on Maharaji’s Boeing 707 plane that we were revamping with gold toilets and other luxuries Maharaji wanted, or as a “Community Coordinator” in three different cities. In fact, I lived in ashrams in seven different cities in the USA, not by my choice, but because I was sent to each one. In 1981, I was sent from the Miami ashram to the ashram in San Francisco, a city I love and where I have lived ever since (with a few years in nearby Marin County). In 1983, I left both Maharaji’s ashram and his cult.

As can be said about any living situation, no matter how repressive or bizarre, I had some good times in the ashrams, and some terrible times. I met some wonderful people in the ashrams, most of whom sincerely believed Maharaji and wanted to dedicate their lives to him. Living with people who are sincerely seeking truth, no matter how misguided that search might be, can be a very nice experience.

For the most part, however, I hated living in the ashrams partly because sex and romantic relationships were forbidden, partly because of the lack of having any of my own money, partly also because of the almost total lack of privacy, and partly because the ashram system allowed some rather sadistic and unsavory people to inflict their psychological abuse on people who were very vulnerable to them. That has been talked about quite a bit on the Internet by former ashram premies.

Also, I am a person who has always been very interested in the world. I love to read, I love theater and movies; I love politics and current events; I love the wild outdoors and I love my family, an Irish Catholic/WASP combination of wonderful, loving people. Involvement with all of those things was either forbidden or frowned upon in Maharaji’s ashram. Indeed, all “worldly” pursuits and relationships were considered distractions from the true purpose of one’s life, which Maharaji said repeatedly was to devote one’s life 100% to Maharaji. In return, Maharaji promised, through his grace, to take care of us as if we were his children. He repeatedly said that it was HE who knew what was best for us, and not the ashram premies and their “confused minds.” Little did I know at the time that not only did he have no intention or capability of caring for us, he likely did not even know that most of us were even alive, and he couldn’t have cared less.

Of course, in the ashram there was no career development, no education, no forming romantic relationships and no sex allowed, and these are normally the very things one is engaging in in one’s 20s. For me and many others, because we entered the ashram to devote ourselves totally to Maharaji, we missed all that. When the supposed “ashram experiment” (which is the current revisionist spin that the Maharaji cult and its current PR mavens call it these days) came to an end, we were then in our 30s, with little or no advanced education, no career, no relationship, strained relations with family, and an extremely truncated set of life experiences and skills with which to start life over, years behind everyone else in our age group. I am sure that if we had known it was all just some temporary “grand experiment” as Erika Anderson dismissively calls it, we would have thought differently about entering the ashram in the first place.

The damage to my relationship to my family was also severe. On one occasion, I was forbidden in the ashram from attending the funeral of my grandfather. On another occasion, I was forbidden from attending my little sister’s wedding. In addition, I missed most of the holidays, birthdays, and special occasions my family held without me. They also felt very rejected, and for good reason. Maharaji told us on many the occasion that we really HAD no relationship with our family. He told us the ashram, and Maharaji, were our REAL family, and that “the only tie you have to your family is the one they gave you for Christmas” (actual Maharaji quote).

All of those things, including the terrible waste of time, talent, and energy, that occurred in Maharaji’s ashrams are things you can’t ever get back. So, to be told that the ashram was a “failed experiment” that just sort of happened because of some kind of cultural misunderstanding, and that Maharaji really can’t be held responsible for any of it, makes my eyes glaze over. And as has been typical of Erika Andersen’s rationalizations and revisionism, she also blames the ashram premies for getting it wrong, or coming into the ashrams for the wrong reasons, and that they were the real problem, not Maharaji. This is particularly unfair, cruel and dismissive, and just plain false. And yes, I regret having wasted those years following Maharaji, especially the nine years I spent in the ashram, and the damage it caused to me and those I love. Indeed, it is the biggest regret I have in my life.

Here is what Erika says on her website:

I see Maharaji's ashrams in America as having been a grand failed experiment. And I really enjoyed the time I spent living there.

The main problem, I think, was that the ashram was transplanted whole from India to America, like some exotic plant… There was no cultural context for it here; we didn't know what to make of it or how it fit into the practice of Knowledge. In the absence of that context, people came to it for all kinds of odd reasons. Perhaps some people's motivations were simple and sincere wanting to practice Knowledge and be fully available to help Maharaji. Some of us, though, came to avoid starting a real adult life in the world (like lots of other college-age kids), some out of personal ambition ('I'm going to be the BEST devotee') and some out of religious zeal ('this is the only reality and everyone else is doomed').

While I don’t dispute that Erika might have had a good time in the ashram (although I personally recall times when Erika didn’t seem to be very happy in an ashram where we lived at the same time), I don’t think that addresses the issue. And the list of motivations of the people who entered the ashrams she suggests, leaves out the main one, and that’s Maharaji himself.

Maharaji, repeatedly, stressed the need to move into the ashram and to stay there. Since he also preached that we should surrender and devote our lives to him, that was the major motivation for many, as it was for me. I believed Maharaji was the Perfect Master who knew what was best for me. I believed he was the living incarnation of God, and I believed him when he said the purpose of my life was to devote it 100% to him, and that he provided the ashram as a means to do that. And, at the time, when I was allowed to enter the ashram, I was happy, excited, and I felt privileged for the opportunity he, the Perfect Master, gave me.

Maharaji said on many occasions that the ashram was a life-long commitment. Once in the ashram, Maharaji instructed his Initiators to tell us that leaving the ashram was not an option, and he emphasized it himself, in no uncertain terms, in numerous ashram meetings he had with us over the years, (which Erika Andersen also attended but seems to have conveniently forgotten), almost right up to the very time in 1983 when he summarily closed the ashrams without explanation.

For example, I have a copy of a tape of Maharaji speaking to his devotees in Atlantic City, New Jersey, in December, 1976, when Maharaji said the following:

“The ashram is for people who have dedicated their lives for their lifetime. When you understand that the purpose of your life is to understand knowledge and to devote your life to Maharaji, then ashram makes sense and is really required.

Ashram is intensive care provided by Guru Maharaj Ji. Guru Maharaj Ji knows how to operate on us and he is the surgeon. See, you have a disease, and you have been given medicine for the disease, and that's good, which is knowledge. But we need intensive care to recover from the disease because we can fall back into the disease. And the ashram is Guru Maharaj Ji's hospital. Ashram is the place we all need to come from but some people can't be there because they are married.“

Later, Maharaji reiterates that the ashram is always for a lifetime. In fact, Maharaji said you have to be there a long time for ashram to have the effect on you it is supposed to have. He said it was like you were in an accident and hit glass that wasn't safety glass, and many splinters of glass have to be pulled out of you slowly and painfully.

Of course, none of that should be a surprise to Erika. She heard all the things Maharaji said, and she knows she can’t explain it away. [Although Maharaji has attempted to destroy all evidence of the incriminating things he said in the past, that hasn’t been very successful, and if anyone you like to hear this tape, I can make it available to you.] Under these circumstances, Erika’s bizarre suggestion that the ashram was just one of a number of “options” that a premie had, is disingenuous in the extreme.

But wait, it gets worse. Later, Maharaji took questions from premies. A premie asked Maharaji about whether it was okay for him to leave the ashram and “to have a wife,” since he felt he needed one. To this, Maharaji said:

Do you need a wife, or does something else need a wife? A wife is not a human necessity. It is desire. It is just an extension of mind. Right now your mind is saying you want a wife, but if it's just a wife, why do you want the second thing, you say I want a child, and I want this and I want that. Somehow mind traps you at the weakest spot. That's the way mind taps into you. Do you want a wife, but this is really just an extension of mind. “

Then another premie asked Maharaji about people who had moved out of the ashram and got married, which a number of ashram premies had done earlier in 1976, and he asked Maharaji what they should do. Here is what Maharaji says:

“This is what you should tell them. If you take a stick of dynamite, and stick it down your throat, and light the other end with the fuse, what's gonna happen? (laughing) Who would you blame that on? The point is, who's gotta pay for that?

Look, they are married and it's ridiculous for them to get divorced. ...It was an irrational and wrong move to get married. It isn't the answer, knowledge is the answer. [Maharaji proceeds to talk about marriages that 'aren't working' and how they are worse than hell.] He continues: Whatever you sow, you reap it yourself and if it isn't working out, you are gonna reap that too....Service to Guru Maharaj Ji is personal self-dedication. Moving out of the ashram and getting married was a flip-flop move and it's a sad sight, why did they do that? Why, because it's an extension of mind. “

Could this be any more unequivocal and clear? Setting aside for a moment the psychological damage these kinds of sick statements could cause, Maharaji clearly said that not only was the ashram a life-long commitment, and was required, marriage and relationships as alternatives were “just extensions of mind” (not to mention equivalent to blowing your brains out with dynamite). In this light, is the drivel Erika Andersen is putting forth on this subject infuriating to those of us who know the truth of what really happened? You bet it is.

Maharaji also issued lots of threats about what would happen to an ashram premie were he or she to leave, let alone the dire calamities that would befall someone who chose not to practice knowledge anymore (variously, that one would “go to hell,” that one would “smash into a thousand pieces,” that one would have “tons of rotten vegetables rot inside of them,” etc.)

Indeed, as late at the 1980s, Maharaji instructed his Initiators to encourage every premie possible to dedicate themselves in the ashram. I know this, because as Community Coordinator for Elan Vital, I was obligated to assist in this nefarious mission. In Miami, Elan Vital lawyers processed numerous divorces for premies so they could become “unattached” and move into the ashram, often to work as unpaid, slave labor for one of Maharaji’s pet projects, like his personal luxury aircraft.

Just the year before the ashrams were closed, there was a notorious ashram inquisition, in which people like Initiator David Smith psychologically harassed and tortured the ashram residents to double their commitment or to get the hell out if they weren't 100% devoted and surrendered to Maharaji. This was, according to David Smith, at Maharaji's personal direction.

Of course, many of us in the ashram really believed, because Maharaji told us so, that he was taking care of us, because we had dedicated our lives to him. That, of course, was a pile of crap, the falsity of which was exposed when he whimsically decided in 1983 to just shut down the ashrams with no preparation whatsoever. We are told by people on the inside of the cult that he did it because he was worried about the ashram premies being a liability as they got older. Because most of the ashram premies didn’t have established careers, good health insurance, and retirement plans, their needs were increasing, and the ashrams weren't the cash cows for him that they used to be. According to those same reports, Maharaji didn’t really care how the closings were carried out. It just wasn’t one of his concerns. He just wanted it done.

When the ashrams were closed little or nothing was done, financially, psychologically, or in any other sense, to help the ashram premies make the transition into the real world. Some of these people were true babies, if you know what I mean. Some had lived in the ashram for over a decade. These were in most cases great people, in fact, who just made the terrible mistake of trusting someone as deceitful and uncaring as Maharaji.

A large number of the ashrams were in debt almost all the time, mostly because of the cost of going to programs, the cost to donate money to Maharaji himself, the cost to support Elan Vital, the cost to support Elan Vital personnel and Initiators who didn't work, and, very significantly, the cost to donate to various expensive toys Maharaji wanted, like that Boeing 707 monstrosity that cost (and wasted) millions and millions of dollars.

Most of the ashram debt was on credit cards. When I was ashram housefather in two different cities, it was always a struggle to meet all the financial commitments, because the ashram premies usually had relatively low-paying jobs, which they often lost because they had to take off for programs, and because Elan Vital moved people around a lot for 'service.' It was always a financial struggle to make ends meet. We had the advantage of living communally, but, besides debt, many of the needs that the ashram premies had, like medical, dental, clothing and other needs, were not adequately met, because there just wasn't the money due to the almost constant demands to donate to Maharaji. For example, I never had any dental work done the whole time I lived in the ashram because there wasn't any money for that. Many premies lived in ashrams without adequate medical care, all in the name of surrendering to Maharaji.

But the truth was, Maharaji didn’t even know who we were, and cared less. I lived in his ashrams for nine years, and I never even spoke to Maharaji, not even once. He never stepped foot into any ashram I ever lived in. I’m sure he never even knew my name. He certainly expressed no interest or concern whatsoever about how the ashram premies lived, or whether they were being properly taken care of. He cared even less when he dumped the ashram premies onto the streets in 1983, and even stuck them with the ashram debts, for some people as much as $20,000, individually. Again, these were people who had given Maharaji their lives – absolutely everything, and had sacrificed years of their lives to serve and support him, and yet this is how Maharaji responded to them. Clearly, that says something loud and clear about the kind of person Maharaji is.

The cavalier way in which Maharaji related to the ashrams is something that will dog him for the rest of his life. There are too many of us out there who aren’t about to forget the rotten, uncaring things Maharaji did to us, and how little he seemed to care about us as fellow human beings. And this is magnified by the fact that to this day, Maharaji has failed to even admit there was any problem, and certainly that he had anything to do with it.

Erika does admit, in her usual passive voice method of deflecting any responsibility from Maharaji, that the closing of the ashrams, at least, wasn’t done very well. But Erika engages in rank intellectual dishonesty when she, like the good cult member she is who cannot bear to criticize her cult leader, excuses Maharaji from ever having to admit, let alone atone for, the damage he caused people, because, according to Erika, people might not be able to accept his apology.

I’m speechless. It’s about justice, Erika. It’s about damage done to real human beings. Since when is it acceptable to flake out on an apology or taking responsibility for your actions unless there is some kind of guarantee that the apology will be accepted? This is culthink in the extreme.

But I’m sure Erika expects more from other people in her life and only gives such bizarre dispensations to her cult leader. Hopefully, her kids have figured out that exception and won’t learn from Erika’s retreat from the expectations one would apply to any other human being.

Joe Whalen

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 19:33:43 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: Erika's attitude is truly disgusting
Message:
Joe - thank you for your very moving post. I wasn't in the ashram. Instead I was one of the 'second class' premies...

Rawat: Ashram is the place we all need to come from but some people can't be there because they are married

But I lived in a 'premie house' where we had to (as aspirants) read bastardface's satsang for 2 hours a day.Then when I got K I was supposed to (like Durga Ji!) get up before the kids and do an hour and 3 quarters meditation... bloody knackering when you have 3 kids under the age of 5! I was married to an ex-ashram premie... who, naturally was 'in his mind' for getting married in the first place. The whole community was totally screwed-up (and screwed) by the confusing number of contradictory 'agyas' from the Lard.

All power to all-of-us's elbows for getting out of the foul cult - especially considering that our self-esteem. will-power and autonomy were so drastically eroded by f**kingbastardface.

Best
Moley
xxx

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Date: Sat, Oct 27, 2001 at 13:51:30 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: To Moley...
Message:
I know that some ashram premies had a superior attitude toward community premies, but I didn't (at least most of the time).

My best premie friends never lived in the ashram, but were as dedicated as many of the cult ashram folk.

After I moved into the ashram, I noticed even more, how difficult it was for premies with children to tow the cult line. That sounds like a pretty strict premie house you lived in.

An hour and 3/4s of meditation? Ashram premies didn't do that on a regular basis.

Btw, what does 'knackering' mean?

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 18:05:34 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: JHB - find this a permanent home, please..
Message:
Beautifully and movingly told Joe. I admire your restraint re. Erika's revisionist claptrap, and your patience in telling the whole truth and nothing but. This deserves a place on EPO - there are many premies and exes (some of it was new to me) who never knew about much of the super-devotional culture and that evil anti-family shit. Thanks for presering and including those quotes. Thanks for all of it, in fact.
Cheers,
Nige
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 21:06:18 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Will do [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 15:20:45 (EDT)
From: such
Email: bananas@friedatlast.org/y
To: Joe
Subject: Good 'un,Joe! [lobotomy gave Erika amnesia] [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:23:58 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Powerful post, Joe
Message:
Really, that one's a keeper. I only hope it made an impression on Erika. I'm sure she read it. I can't see how, if she has any warm blood in her, she can't help but to be moved by it.
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 03:49:49 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Question about Erika.
Message:
I'm wondering what the people here think. Do you think Erika is so far gone intellectually that if her children were abused by the likes of Maharaji that she would even recognize it? Would it be okay with her for instance, for her children to live the life of an ashramite should Maharaji decide to re-open them? I know this is sheer speculation and probably unlikely but let's try another senario.
How about some sort of arrangement happening at the Amaroo site for instance. Of couse there would be rules. Have to be under 30 due to the nature of the opportunity, the rugged terrain, the ability to work long hard hours. Single of course. Willing to commit long term due to the expense of transporting one to the site and maintaining you there. Completely clean bill of health. Since Erika had such a wonderful time in the Ashram, do you think she would want the same experience for her children? What would she do if something like this happened within the cult and her children were premies? Do you suppose she would encourage her children to partake of the opportunity or would perhaps a threat like this snap her back to reality?

And to Joe, excellent, excellent post. Thanks, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:54:17 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The CLASSIC mind-f––k
Message:
Thanks Joe. Here it is. this was the quote that drove me into some kind of schizoid, can't-win insanity, when I heard it in 1976 (having just been encouraged to leave the IHQ ashram, watched the ashrams close with MJ's blessing, and then gotten married, then heard THiS:

'“This is what you should tell them. If you take a stick of dynamite, and stick it down your throat, and light the other end with the fuse, what's gonna happen? (laughing) Who would you blame that on? The point is, who's gotta pay for that?

Look, they are married and it's ridiculous for them to get divorced. ...It was an irrational and wrong move to get married. '

For me this is like someone who is being accused of having 'false memory syndrome' showing a video of the abuse.

love Disculta

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:27:38 (EDT)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great post Joe
Message:
I was one of the festival goers that Gregg mentions below , without a hope of getting near the lotus feet except in the darshan line .

I knew that the chances of the incarnate one pitching up at the ashrams that I was in the orbit of were slim , but I always assumed that he dropped in , now & again at some here & there , depending on the attractive force of the devotees within that is .

Now it seems he never went anywhere near any of them : of course why would the maharaja sink so low as to mix with the untouchables , & white ones at that , even worse .

Not the line at the time of course , 'disgusting spin' is right for EA's anodyne crapola , however nicely written .

You guys certainly drew the short straw in this trip but at least you had a decade of blissful certainty : no anxious guilt trip about not being devoted enough because you just couldn't bear the thought of living in a 'concentration camp' ho ho , & knew that put you in outer darkness , possibly for keeps eternity wise.

After the ashramers were told to fuck off & die the people like me were brought in from the cold & became the 'backbone' of the new dispensation.

Erika is someone who is trying to square the circle , but like all such she's fooling no-one but herself.

All the best : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:51:52 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: 'told to fuck off & die'LOL [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:24:00 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: excellent Joe (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:08:31 (EDT)
From: Francesca :(
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ***BEST, BEST, BEST of FORUM***
Message:
Please enshrine this post along with the other Best of Forums on the ashrams. Joe, thank you, thank you, for taking the time!

Sincerely,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:47:05 (EDT)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Francesca :(
Subject: M will never go on record
Message:
and an apology would be just that, a public, legal self-incriminating statement of responsiblity. Geeze, I swear he and ev have hijacked corporate America's policy and procedure books for upper management.
He will never go on record for anything that might put him in an unfavorable position for litigation. Besides, he probably figures he will outlive the ashram premies and then the whole miserable episode will be dust in the wind.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:36:44 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Differnet experiences in ashrams
Message:
First of all, I remember once JM posted a link to prove that M directed all single PWKs to move into an ashram. I read the link, and I remember that in that link M said something like this: “For those who are sincere I recommend the ashram but I will not push anyone into the ashram”

Another thing: My English is not excellent but when I read M say: “The ashram is for people who have dedicated their lives for their lifetime”, I honestly understood this was about dedication towards K (frankly no one can dedicate their life to a house) and I don’t see that this means that anyone who moves into the ashram should stay there for the rest of their lifetime? Or even that ashrams should be forever.

I have lived in ashrams in 5 different countries. Although I was ashram secretary, I was not a role model. I even had an affair with a woman I later married and am still married to. Actually she told my kids the other day, there were 7 boys in the ashram and everyone was in love with her. But strangely enough she was only in love with me. And believe me, I was not the best guy there.
This was a time when no one I knew had credit cards. Our econmy was good, and I think we had a different culture. I allowed people to go home to their families during holidays, and we even went to all the festivals in Europe. The money system was based on cash and we bought a car and stuff, and had no debts. There was never a question about going to dentist or doctors if needed (the same was the case in other countries I lived in – including Denver).

I was in a strange situation: I never moved into or out of the ashram, because the ashram moved into the house I rented. And when I finally returned to my country from another country, the same day the lease for the ashram flat went out. Then I married and a few months later another ashram opened.
Finally when the ashrams were closed in my country, the 3 ashram residents owned a flat. When they sold the flat for about 100 000 dollars or something like that (I cant remember the currency), they shared the money, One person did not want the money, and one gave the money to another person and the third bought a MG convertible sportscar and “had a party” for some years. If you don’t believe me about this, ask one of them who is/ was close to be an ex (Erling Flaa) and who actually gave away his “share”. Of course it was a discussion if the ashrams residents should keep the money.

Quite a few of the ashram people I knew, came from a situation where they had no education, or good jobs. Some had been drug addicts (for a short periode me too). I think most people went through a healing process, and managed to maintain a structured life.

In my ashram life there were times when I was not so happy, for instance when I lived in other countries, and really did not have any challenging work to do. But bottom line, I would not have missed my ashram life. And we honestly had a lot of fun. We laughed a lot.

But then again – shit happens – someone stick to the shit, and someone sticks to the good stuff. It is really a matter of choice – or Public relations.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:04:09 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: IGNORE the above post from ''B''^^^^ [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 22:43:04 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Perhaps you're a sadist, Bjørn
Message:
I often wonder why you write posts in order to inflame people. Yes, I still remember your post to me when I was desperately trying to get CAC off my back and I remember your totally heartless and cruel words to me at that time.

Sadists don't appear as shadowy creatures of the night. That's only in films. Real sadists appear as normal, presentable people who secretly stick the knife in at any and every possible opportunity. Their's is a secret agenda that is unknown to other people.

You see, your above post could be seen as a perfectly reasonable response to something you disagree with. But is that really the case? Is it not true that you delight in every twist of the knife that you can torture these people with?

If you're not actually a sadist, you are remarkably insensitive - to an absurd extreme.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:58:08 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave
Message:
First of all, I can't remember I posted something to you about Cac, but if you feel offended about what I wrote about this, I am sorry. However my point is that it is nessessary to see things from different angles. And my point about cac, even though I hated it, is that some people tased their own medicine, and also that if you do something you cannot blame others for it. Everybody have to - at least for themselves take responsibility for their own actions.

Well, every sides have 2 sides. Joe et al presented their perspective of the ashrams, and dont you think this is like a knife in my heart, when I read his post. But even if it might be stupid of me to even read his post, I think it is sane to see other peoples perspective.

I have been accused to post because I am kind of trying to get some attention thus people can harass me or ridicule me. Now you state the oposite implying I am a sadist? So at least one can say perspectives differ. BYW, I wanted to reply to your post at LG, but I decided to stop posting. Why I posted again? Gerry treatened me and Mickey provoked me.

Am I 'remarkably insensitive - to an absurd extreme.'? Personally I don't think so. My motivation has always been to present a different angle of perspectives. But I am not certain about what to call some peoples posts to me. What would you call those people?

Well it appears to me that the exes forums, is some kind of a forrest. To me it seems that in this forrest lives 'craws'. Nobody is positive, (except when they say Kra, Kra, good Kra, mate) and anyone who enters this forrest only can hear 'Kra, Kra'

When some (in my perspective beautiful birds) come along and tries to sing a beautiful song, the flock of craws attack the little bird. I suppose I am a semicraw, but being a slow learner, I have been wounded and hurt. I dont feel sorry for myself, because I am the one who entered this forrest.
So this is a kind of guest visit. I posted something at LG, and was waiting for a response, and checked here and felt a need to express my story in the ashram, so I did.

Hope I will not meet you again

Take care, and Dave, I hope things with your kids and personal live will be OK. If it is any comfort, I think most people (except exes) have forgotten about it - I for one dont think I even read 'your page' at CAC.

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 11:43:56 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: Kra, Kra, yourself!
Message:
To me it seems that in this forrest lives 'craws'. Nobody is positive, (except when they say Kra, Kra, good Kra, mate) and anyone who enters this forrest only can hear 'Kra, Kra'

Er, that would be 'CAW, CAW!', not 'KRA, KRA!' When did you ever hear a crow go 'KRA, KRA'? Christ, you can't even get that right!

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:24:54 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Funny Jerry
Message:
when you describe the song of a craw in Norway, you say 'Kra Kra'. Maybe their language differ?
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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 13:18:52 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Kra, Kra, kra kra -- 96 tears! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 21:44:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: You ... you...you are a complete imbecile!
Message:
Bjorn,

Joe's description of the ashram is a concise, comprehensive and fair depiction. It might not be a photograph but it's a damn good colour illustration. Erika's is a simplistic portrait, maybe something a grade eight kid might do in art class. There's an attempt at perpsective but it's skewed. Also, the colours are all off.

Your description, however, is like a three year-old's stick drawing.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 21:59:11 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, I was hoping
Message:
evryone would just ignore his posts and eventually he'd get so lonesome he'd wander off to LG to update them on how much of a cult Epo is :)

He'll probably reply to you with 10,000 words of gibberish now !

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 05:51:11 (EDT)
From: Bjørn E
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Dermot no need to comment Jim
Message:
his post speaks for itself.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 19:46:07 (EDT)
From: Not so lucky
Email: None
To: Bjørn E
Subject: You lucky, lucky, bastard
Message:
How tall are you? Really? I didn't know they could pile it that high.

It's very sad your parents couldn't have children.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:54:38 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'Guru' Maharaj Ji
Message:
Beautifully written piece, Joe.

It is truly astonishing how the man could have told us how much he cared about us while at the same time treating those who had dedicated their lives to him so terribly.

Although there were, at one point, many thousands of festival-going premies, too many for him to get to know personally, such was not the case with the ashram premies. Maharaj Ji could have made an occasional visit to some of his greatest cash cows. But he didn't need to (and certainly didn't want to spend any time at a dump without a gold loo).

It speaks to the intensity of cult programming that ashram premies could give so much without even expecting the hint of a thank you from the Exalted One.

None of this makes any difference to folks like Erika, of course. It's too bad, really. Leaving the 'Guru' usually turns out to be a refreshingly blissful experience. But it's like AA: you gotta admit a few unpleasant truths first.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:53:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That says it all -- well done indeed [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 18:08:11 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent Post Joe.
Message:
Hi Joe,

It's great to see the clapped-out cult pooch firmly chained to reality by such posts. Much as they are trying to rewrite their sordid, sorry history, posts like this throws their shabby spin back in their faces.

Thanks for that Joe.

Anth, who lived in a cult hothouse too.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 20:46:53 (EDT)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Excellent,plus a question for M...
Message:
Joe-

Thanks again for a well thought out essay on the ashrams.
It's amazing how people like Erika try and gloss over the ashram experience, and the devasatating effects it had on the people who took maharaji literally, and gave it all, only to be thrown out on the street when he decided to jettison the 'experiment'.

I can testify to the intense pressure put on premies to move into the ashram-in fact,I remember you as the Wash. DC coordinator.Randy Prouty and Alan Imbarrato tried to force me and others into the ashram constantly.
Thanks for not being one of the 'company men' with the 'party line'.

My question to maharaji and premies like Erika is this:

If the ashram was so great, would you recommend it to your kids?
Even just for a year?

Would maharaji want his kids to be treated that way?

I'd be interested in their answer, but am not holding my breath.

Thanks, Joe.

I think this should be put somewhere in epo.

Jim S.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 25, 2001 at 17:09:07 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent, EXCELLENT post Joe
Message:
Really puts all the current revisionism to shame. Although I only lived in the ashram for 1974 and 75 (unlike your longer time there) I really can relate to your post.

Your meticulous description of the ashram lifestyle is SPOT ON. I'm saving this post. Thanks.

Dermot

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Date: Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 01:15:15 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM***Once Again, Joe...
Message:
Joe,

Your post describes everything so well about the ashrams. I never really thought too much about the fact the Maharaji never visited the ashrams. Weird, don't you think?

It's almost like he ignored us on purpose.

Btw, I personally verify what you said about the divorce mill which was operating out of Divine Light Mission headquarters in Miami Beach during and after the 707 project. I assisted the attorney and we processed countless divorces so premies could move into the ashram (some who had children)!!

Maharaji's personal desires for opulent and fancy stuff often required premies who had a ''special skill'' to complete projects (as slaves). Maharaji certainly has an appetite to acquire people.

Your post was superb, Joe. You've done it again!

It's a keeper,
Cynthia

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