Joe -:- Maharaji Cult Attack Site Update -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:27:05 (EST)

__ Francesca -:- Joe, that's 3 sites -- you forgot ... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:42:57 (EST)

__ New York Sleuth -:- Ira Glasser and Charles Glasser -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:32:55 (EST)

Michael McDonald -:- Response to Macgregor -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:19:43 (EST)

__ JHB -:- Thank you Michael -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:34:46 (EST)

__ __ Marianne -:- Thanks from me, too-nt -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:39:41 (EST)

gerry -:- Prem, the Pedophile's Pal -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:55:33 (EST)

__ AJW -:- What did Rawat know? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:26:16 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Absolutely right, Gerry -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:13:52 (EST)

__ __ **** again -:- Absolutely right? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:16:48 (EST)

michael donner -:- bring from below -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:34:33 (EST)

__ Posting for John McGregor -:- Here it is -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:42:17 (EST)

__ __ Richard -:- Wise comment about arguments / people -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 15:02:30 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- John Mc, you said... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:48:54 (EST)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Pat, just be patient -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:01:25 (EST)

__ __ __ Mike Finch -:- John and Pat: demolishing arguments -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:10:44 (EST)

__ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: John and Pat: demolishing arguments -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:27:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Cat, you protest too much -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:38:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- More can be done in that regard -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:20:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- PS John and Mike -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:19:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: Mike/civility -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:08:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Mike, I was just thinking about that -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:40:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- True, but hostility is in the eye of the beholder -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:29:44 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- True, but hostility is in the eye of the beholder -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:41:13 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I agree, and thanks. -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:57:51 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- The stakes have changed around here for me -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:15:36 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: The stakes have changed around here for me -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:21:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Precisely, Joe -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:49:16 (EST)

Tim G -:- Practicing Knowledge? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:23:33 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Breathing on your own now Tim? Wow! -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 15:54:59 (EST)

__ __ Tim G -:- Re: Breathing on your own now Tim? Wow! -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:19:15 (EST)

__ Pat:C) -:- Knowledge? Why should I have to practice... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:33:22 (EST)

__ __ Tim G -:- Nice one Pat. nt -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:16:23 (EST)

__ __ **** again -:- Re: Knowledge? Why should I have to practice... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:23:08 (EST)

__ __ __ Tim G -:- RE : When you don't -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:15:19 (EST)

Cynthia -:- Enough is Enough With These Trolls! -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:15:31 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- BAN the TROLLS GERRY -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:30:07 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- It's no use -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:37:40 (EST)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Gerry, let them be -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:40:45 (EST)

__ CW -:- Clear thinking? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:10:14 (EST)

__ __ AJW -:- Hey Cat. -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:29:56 (EST)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Hey Cat. -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:04:26 (EST)

__ Pat:C) -:- If that's what everyone wants and Gerry agrees... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:33:50 (EST)

__ __ Selene -:- one of the issues -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:41:16 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks Pat and Selene... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:20:14 (EST)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- As Jim has pointed out many times -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:05:40 (EST)

Pat:C) -:- Why do Sicko Cacweasels post here and... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:53:50 (EST)

__ Francesca ~) -:- **BEST, BEST, BEST of FORUM*** [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:14:21 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, Francesca, but.... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:57:08 (EST)

__ Jim -:- They've trivialized themselves immensely -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:05:20 (EST)

__ __ CW -:- Re: They've trivialized themselves immensely -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:02:12 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- But they are putting up a fight -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:21:06 (EST)

__ don -:- you may be surprised pat, but I like this post. -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:28:20 (EST)

__ don -:- Re: Why do Sicko Cacweasels post here and... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:26:41 (EST)

__ Sir Dave }( -:- Correction -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 05:34:52 (EST)

__ __ CW -:- Correct Weight -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 05:55:52 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- That's all they have. -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 05:06:50 (EST)

__ __ Selene -:- repeating something over and over -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 10:10:39 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Selene! -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:05:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Smoking with Michael Nouri -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:17:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Re: Smoking with Michael Nouri -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:23:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- No coatracks, my dear... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 15:49:28 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- haha I hope you are joking? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 15:57:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- The god of the coatracks? LOL [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:34:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Where is Rennie Davis when he is really needed -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 15:37:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- wannabee snobs more likely -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:04:02 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Andrea Eriksonn -:- Ladies, please! You make is sound like... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:22:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Brother Hal N. Back -:- One question, Andrea -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:18:55 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- it's not the clothes its the shopping -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:28:30 (EST)

__ __ CW -:- Oh ,I dunno........ -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:04:21 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- You got it, Tonette. -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 05:25:56 (EST)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: You got it, Tonette. -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:10:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You prove my point in spades, Cacweasel [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:35:53 (EST)

Larry hart -:- Blue Aquarius -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 03:18:00 (EST)

Marianne -:- CAC, Elan Vital, and Maharaji-Alert -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 02:03:28 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- Re: CAC, Elan Vital, and Maharaji-Alert -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:07:08 (EST)

__ Joe -:- My Email To EV re Attack Sites -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:14:31 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Joe and Marianne, what I want to know... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:28:03 (EST)

__ FYI -:- CAC site is gone -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 02:09:59 (EST)

__ __ Marianne -:- False info on site was used -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 02:37:34 (EST)

__ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: False info on site was used -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 03:32:44 (EST)

Marianne -:- Explanation of incongruities, John???? -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:10:42 (EST)

__ John -:- Explanation -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:43:29 (EST)

__ __ Richard -:- Re: Explanation -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:04:39 (EST)

__ __ JHB -:- Harboring a Paedophile??? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:22:38 (EST)

__ Jean-Michel -:- I suggest ***** best of **** nomination -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 03:47:05 (EST)

__ PatD -:- Re: Explanation of incongruities, John? -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 21:02:28 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- You're too damn cute, PatD -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 21:51:41 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- Death threats against Exes? -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 21:41:23 (EST)

__ __ __ PatD -:- Re: Death threats against Exes? -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:55:19 (EST)

Joe -:- Maharaji Cult Attack Update -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:24:02 (EST)

__ FYI -:- CAC site is gone -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 02:06:53 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Hey, dummy: 2 attack sites remain -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:05:27 (EST)

__ __ __ FYI -:- Re: Hey, dummy: 2 attack sites remain -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:12:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sorry, I'm a little keyed up -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:18:02 (EST)

__ JHB -:- Jim and Dettmers EPO! -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:43:53 (EST)

__ FYI -:- Links are bogus -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:40:27 (EST)

Scott T. -:- Scott Ritter is a premie???!!! -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:14:47 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Scott, read your email...;) [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:34:03 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Jesus, Scott, you are joking, I hope -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:26:21 (EST)

__ __ Scott T. -:- Well, you never know -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:00:53 (EST)

__ __ __ salsa -:- is this him? -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:29:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Nah, I think that's Johnny Winter -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:47:23 (EST)

**** -:- cult -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 15:39:05 (EST)

__ ******** -:- cunt -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:59:23 (EST)

__ __ Nottingham Bunnie -:- Language -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 08:42:21 (EST)

__ Mummiji -:- You must be dyslexic, dear ... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:05:43 (EST)

__ Barry -:- Re: cult -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 18:32:24 (EST)

__ Gregg -:- Who, me? (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:59:34 (EST)

__ __ **** 123 -:- nt -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:14:08 (EST)

Joe -:- I am so disappointed in Mitch Ditkoff -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:48:08 (EST)

__ bill -:- great all around post Joe [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:57:30 (EST)

__ Joy -:- Brilliant, Joe--Everybody Read the Above -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:23:34 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- I did read it and it is brilliant but.. -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:59:53 (EST)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I agree -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:55:12 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Here's my original article (reprint) -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:53:36 (EST)

FYI -:- BBC Radio Broadcast -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:47:56 (EST)

__ **** -:- Re: BBC Radio Broadcast -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 15:02:51 (EST)

__ __ Barry -:- Re: BBC Radio Broadcast -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 18:34:24 (EST)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Good one Barry }) [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 19:13:46 (EST)

__ cq -:- the program begins at 12.05pm (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 07:09:44 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Re: the program begins at 12.05pm (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 08:11:36 (EST)

__ __ __ cq -:- GMT, Vicki - long gone now. -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:26:07 (EST)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Alas, time ran out. -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:38:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Alas, time ran out. -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:58:10 (EST)

EV -:- Junk Mail -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:40:20 (EST)

PAMs post on LG -:- has been deleted -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:51:09 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- There is not much going on over there -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 22:52:27 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: There is not much going on over there -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 23:00:20 (EST)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Like someone over there said recently -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 23:38:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- A scout troop full of.... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:00:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Lord Baden Powell -:- Re: A scout troop full of.... -:- Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:15:29 (EST)

__ salsa -:- The site is GONE -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:28:58 (EST)

__ __ JHB -:- Which site? [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:32:22 (EST)

__ __ __ salsa -:- Re: Which site? -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:10:32 (EST)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- LG is there now [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 10:32:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ salsa -:- not to me -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 14:42:23 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Welcome to the CLUB -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:11:25 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Welcome to the CLUB -:- Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:11:16 (EST)

Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:27:05 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: All Subject: Maharaji Cult Attack Site Update Message:

As far as I know, there are STILL two sites on the Internet attacking former followers of Maharaji who are posting on the internet. Here are the two sites: http://right2hate.webhop.net/ http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineABuse/ I have received no response from Elan Vital after I asked them to say something about this. On Elan Vital's website, the 'press' section is closed down. No statement on Maharaji's website either. Also, no statement on the Please Consider This website from Erika/David Andersen and Mitch Ditkoff (and the other guy whose name I don't recall). What does this mean? When CAC appeared a couple of months ago, Elan Vital was quick to put up a self-serving press release saying they had nothing to do with it. Also, a number of premies posted their horror and disgust at what was going on, including David Andersen, who said it was indicative of a "cult." This time, with FIVE attack sites, two of which remain up on the internet, we see nothing. Silence. John MacGregor tells us that Maharaji is certainly behind these websites. That, combined with the silence from both him and Elan Vital is very disturbing. Plus, premies, themselves are also saying nothing. Has the Maharaji cult sunk to that level? Comments? Personally, I'm at a loss to explain this. Like what Marianne said yesterday, why would Maharaji do something that so clearly backfires on his ability to ever get any new converts, expose him to even more damaging publicity, and is certain to only increase the resolve of those attacked because they can't give into blackmail? The site with the 'red' background, the one that names ex-premies and associates them with Neo-Nazi and KKK sites is especially foul, and amazingly vicious. Plus it's clear that somebody put hours upon hours of time, as well as considerable expense to put it together. Is this what donations to Elan Vital are being used for? Of course, we will never know, because finances are all part of the secrecy which is one of the hallmarks of Maharaji's operation.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:42:57 (EST) From: Francesca Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, that's 3 sites -- you forgot ... Message:

This one: http://www.powow.com/right2hate/ The webhop.net site looks like some sort of free redirect service that someone was using to redirect the powow site. These CAC-o, crack-o people are like fungii or anthrax. The premie trolls are a disease, I'm afraid. They act like a disease, because their minds are diseased, and thus they display disease-like activity. And when you have a disease, you are SICK. Apparently, Knowledge was NOT a cure. Ergo the sickness. Hope it's not terminal. They are a disgrace to their master who seems to have nothing to say these days. But then again, he never really had anything to say anyway, but for some of us, he spun a lotta cotton candy fluff. Yucko. Here's the info on webhop from the site in my link: 'The WebHop Redirection service provides web redirection services to complement our Dynamic and Static DNS services. The web redirection allows you to alias your long, hard-to-remember, ugly URLs to a short top-level hostname within one of our offered subdomains. Hosts can be cloaked, hiding the true URL of your site from end users, or uncloaked. Cloaking for donators is totally invisible, but non-donators with cloaked sites will have a pop-up ad displayed. Donators also have the option of using a CNAME to point to their webhop. (The user must set this up him or herself.) If you are having problems with your WebHop or just have questions, visit the WebHop support section of dyndns.org's support website.' [ Webhop ]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:32:55 (EST) From: New York Sleuth Email: None To: Joe Subject: Ira Glasser and Charles Glasser Message:

The http://right2hate.webhop.net/ site includes a quote from Ira Glasser, Executive Director of ACLU. Ira Glasser appears to be based in NY, as is Charles. I've tried to find out if they are related (which would explain the link up) but have not been able to. Perhaps someone else here has more information on this. If they are related, a letter to Ira about his son(?)'s activities might be effective. NYS

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:19:43 (EST) From: Michael McDonald Email: None To: All Subject: Response to Macgregor Message:

Firstly, I'd like to support and congratulate John Macgregor in his efforts to come to grips with the explosion of his dominant paradigm, aspects of which I have shared. Secondly, I'd like to confirm that John is who he says he is, though premies and exes who know him could confirm that from the information he has already provided. I live some 20 kilometres 'up the road' from John and have known him since the early 70s, when he accurately described one of the pamphlets I had written for Divine Light Mission as 'trite'. As to my bona fides, I was at the training in September 99 that John mentions and others who were there will know that Mr Rawat noted the number of 'Macs' at the event (four in all, I believe) and made some sort of light-hearted remark about a Scottish takeover. Unlike John, I don't intend to give out my home address for anthrax mailings but if anyone, premie or ex, wants to debate the issues and paradigm at stake I can be reached at PO Box 257, Mullumbimby NSW 2482, Australia. (I made a similar offer when I 'resigned' from EV but I suspect it was only seen by one person.) I hadn't visited this forum in months until a premie hunting for Pam piqued my curiosity. I went looking for Pam and suspected John to be 'her' from the intelligence of the writing (and the quotations from Jung) but didn't enquire further. I see John's 'coming out', as it were, as highly significant and indicative of the meltdown of a culture sustained over three decades in the West by a number of false premises, which include the artificial and psychologically damaging division of the human psyche into the 'heart' and the 'mind'; the schizoid presentation of an urbane EV to the world compared to the devotional EV which is the core of the organisation; and the belief, perpetuated by Mr Rawat either through his own delusion or sheer cynicism, and supported by an immense amount of trust from many good people, that the guiding presence behind EV is 'perfect', the corollary being it is okay to obey him implicitly and unquestioningly. The last premise John characterised somewhere in his 5,000 word post as 'projection', a good ole-fashioned psychological term I tend to agree with in this case. It was us who poured our trust into Mr Rawat and made him assume in our eyes the powers of blissfulness, awareness, knowingness. whatever. You can also project that onto your lover or, to a lesser extent, onto your dog. Positing that Mr Rawat was divine sunk the hooks in even deeper. No wonder the smashing of that paradigm can be painful, no wonder so-called exes and premies alike can end up spitting venom at each other. Once out, however, the experience can be liberating as well as confusing. It was quite a step as a 50-year-old man to say to myself, Maharaji has no greater grasp of 'reality' than do I. And to extend that even further, to consider the whole history of mysticism and meditation may have no absolute basis, that for example, the experience of bliss may just be an evolutionary mechanism for a big brain to cope with the passage of time or to manufacture hope. But that's the subject of another post. In the meantime, I hope it all doesn't end in tears, but the disintegration of large chunks of the EV structure seems ever more likely. As John and I discussed on the phone, it is a remarkable piece of history to watch a paradigm fall apart, especially when it's your own. (Then again, the Catholic church has flourished for centuries on far less subtle propositions, and a lot more real estate. If Amaroo can be sold and the organisation re-structured, perhaps EV can toddle along like the Theosophical Society for another century or so.) As John noted of the forum, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, 'After the years of EV's information-suppression, in-group secrets and language-distortion, this feels to me like a borderline spiritual experience.' It is the miserly control and manipulation of information which could be EV's and Mr Rawat's downfall. When I found myself as an EV PR person making statements which went dead against my instincts as an information-hungry journalist, cracks appeared in the paradigm. Earlier cracks appeared as a result of the training John mentioned. Stay tuned for more. Michael McDonald

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:34:46 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Michael McDonald Subject: Thank you Michael Message:

The situation in Australia seems clear. What about the USA? John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:39:41 (EST) From: Marianne Email: Marianne DB@aol.com To: JHB Subject: Thanks from me, too-nt Message:

xxxx

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:55:33 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Prem, the Pedophile's Pal Message:

It is becoming increasingly clear Rawat knew about Jagdeo's crimes for years and probably decades without lifting a finger to stop it or to help Jagdeo's victims. John the PAM's recent corroboration is just one more confirmation of the above fact. It's time for Rawat to give up Jagdeo and begin to clean up this horrendous mess Rawat's 'mission' has created. Instead he is giving time and energy over to this useless and childish CAC attack nonsense. But then, that would require thinking and acting like a normal, decent person, wouldn't it?

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:26:16 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: gerry Subject: What did Rawat know? Message:

Jagdeo was reported to Charanand in Australia. He was reported to Randy Prouty and Judy Osbourne in the US. Judy reported back to one of the victims. It looks like there was a meeting with Maria Isabella to discuss what to do about another case of abuse. This is at least four full-time, cult officials who were told. An anonymous premie honcho (who posted briefly as 'Phyllis') told me Jagdeo was discussed amongst small groups of co-ordinators at conferences in the late 80s. When the complaints became too loud, Jagdeo was restricted to touring the Indian communities in the Far East. And we all know, that in cultworld, not a flea farts without his permission. Glen told me once that Jagdeo was an old and dear friend of Rawat, who had known him since Rawat was a little boy. Anth the Flea Powder.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:13:52 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: gerry Subject: Absolutely right, Gerry Message:

Also, I would like to say that I agree with John B that the EPO website needs to be changed to return the 'Harboring a Paedophile' title, now that there is testimony that the heading is correct.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:16:48 (EST) From: **** again Email: None To: Joe Subject: Absolutely right? Message:

???

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:34:33 (EST) From: michael donner Email: None To: All Subject: bring from below Message:

can anyone bring john's (pam's) 'thanks for the thanks' up from below. its worth reading and might get missed if the 'view all' is not activatated.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:42:17 (EST) From: Posting for John McGregor Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Here it is Message:

Thanks Jim for your response. I'll try to answer your questions: (Maybe someone can tell me how to italicise questions to distinguish them from my answers...) 1-Do you know more about the cac stuff? I've posted all I know. M would be behind it personally, as a matter of logic. EV has been made aware for a few days now that the CAC sites will soon prove to be far more PR trouble than they are worth, and I am hopeful that they will shortly disappear. (Someone told me this has started - can't confirm that.) 2-Do you know more Pams who might speak out now? Yes, I have been emailed by 2 or 3 PAMs, mini-PAMs and ex-PAMs since posting. I believe they are likely to come out in due course. EV regards Jagdeo as its biggest PR minus, and I expect it will propel more PAMs and mere Earthlings out the dooor in due course. How could it not? 3. Do you have any concrete suggestions how the forum might be more accomodating to that process? I'm going to post about this around post 6 (I just posted post 2). In a nutshell, I'd love to see this place have a greater focus on demolishing arguments and not people. Mel Bourne posted above that he came here for ages as a cult apologist: I took a long time to come around too. The ex who won me over to the Devil was very patient with me. When I made a stupid or morally bankrupt argument - as I did, often, and as most premies will do for a while - she demolished the argument - but left me intact, and unshattered, to focus on the process. We exes can have complete faith in the power of our arguments. They will continue to win people over. BTW, the personal criticisms which sometimes appear here serve to keep several defectors of my acquaintance from posting: they don't feel safe here. It would be good to make this place safe for everyone. The premies, trolls, et al obviously only come here because they have doubts. Other than the monitors, M has made it clear that they shouldn't be here. I should add that I tend to be a little romantic about these things, and I am a very recent ex after all - my head is still spinning somewhat - so I don't have total faith in my judgement of this issue. But I can vouch for the fact that the emotional 'danger' of this place helps deter some very interesting people from posting. 3-In relation to the flood of exiting premies, do you have any suggestions what might enable us to help them? I think this is a very important point....any ideas? Yeah, it's hugely important. I'll post some of my ideas on this in post 6. At a guess, if it were possible to separate the forum's functions of allowing exes to process their stuff, and giving premies an alternative POV - maybe into two separate forums - that might help. More private, password-protected forums like Recent Exes can only be a good thing, IMO. Maybe one for fence-sitters, with a few non-threatening exes involved in it? That's just off the top of my head. Rather than an idea from me, what this matter might reallly need is a debate here. I'm sure others can come up with better ideas than mine. For those who haven't done it, or who can't remember it clearly, I cannot express how vulnerable one feels on leaving K - or in contemplating leaving K. I'll post a list of symptoms on post 6 from standard cult literature: but they are doosies, and post-traumatic stress disorder is extremely common amongst them. Many exiters really needs to be in a cocoon of some sort for a while. Even Maharaji understands that times of transition are fraught with great peril, which is why he gives the aspirants and K-takers such close attention. The same applies on the way out, with bells on. 'The crisis consists of precisely this: the old is dying, and the new cannot yet be born. In this strange interregnum, all manner of morbid symptoms appear.' (Gramsci, from memory) 4-Do you have any idea how m feels at this point, as you seem to indicate that the western empire is crumbling, and m is scratching his head about what to do.... Precisely none. I would imagine he is talking amongst advisors about new strategies for getting things happening again, and about what shape his post-EV mission might take. But that's just a guess. He is extremely resourceful and intelligent, and deeply convinced of his mission. He won't lie down and die for quite a while. But staving off financial problems will be an impossibility, and I'd expect a serious curtailment of activities and/or a sale of some assets in 2002. Best regards, John

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 15:02:30 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: John McGregor Subject: Wise comment about arguments / people Message:

John, among other wise thoughts, you say: 'I'd love to see this place have a greater focus on demolishing arguments and not people.' I can not agree with you more. We were all once deeply involved and must be compassionate to those still walking behind us. They will be needing support and not ridicule. I have zero investment in changing someone's belief system as long as it intends no harm (Cac et al). But having been there, it is my duty to make information available so others may draw their own conclusions and act accordingly. Thanks for your words of reason, concern and inclusion. Richard who is posting again since being listed on Halt On-Line Hate website

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:48:54 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: repost of John McGregor's Subject: John Mc, you said... Message:

''In a nutshell, I'd love to see this place have a greater focus on demolishing arguments and not people. Mel Bourne posted above that he came here for ages as a cult apologist: I took a long time to come around too. The ex who won me over to the Devil was very patient with me. When I made a stupid or morally bankrupt argument - as I did, often, and as most premies will do for a while - she demolished the argument - but left me intact, and unshattered, to focus on the process.'' I completely agree but how do you suggest we deal with those premies who are dishonest, malicious and disruptive? Most of the bad stuff that happens here is because of anonymous cacweasels. Certain cultweasels have so eroded our natural trust here because they have posted under multiple aliases and appeared to be sincere only to suddenly turn and attack later. Like you I prefer Churchill's approach to Chamberlain's when faced with evil. Of course I'm itching with curiosity to know what name you posted under and who the ex was that was so patient with you. You also wanted to know how to italicize. Use these little pointy brackets < and >. Put an I between them at the beginning of what you want to italicize and at the end put an / before the I inside those brackets. To make it bold use a B in place of the I. To underline use a U.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:01:25 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Pat, just be patient Message:

Pat, I have expressed my annoyance with premies in the past, but now, when arguing with premies, I imagine a larger audience, and talk to them instead. Although my immediate protagonist may deserve my invective, the larger audience doesn't. And as it's only the internet, there's no point in getting uptight here:-) John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:10:44 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: John and Pat: demolishing arguments Message:

John writes: I'd love to see this place have a greater focus on demolishing arguments and not people...When I made a stupid or morally bankrupt argument - as I did, often, and as most premies will do for a while - she demolished the argument - but left me intact, and unshattered, to focus on the process. John, I agree with you completely on this. Over the past month or two I have posted on this very topic. I can vouch for the fact that the emotional 'danger' of this place helps deter some very interesting people from posting I can vouch for it as well. Since I have started occasionally posting on here, I have been in private conversation with several well-known premies, past and present, who have all told me that they would like to post, but will not because of the emotional attacks and abuse that happen here. In general, they are prepared to have their arguments attacked, but not themselves as people. I am in this category as well; I would certainly post more if the environment were less hostile. Pat writes: Most of the bad stuff that happens here is because of anonymous cacweasels. Pat, I could not disagree with you more. Anyone with half a brain can see that the anonymous cacweasels are just pissing in the wind, and are not representative of what this site is all about. No, the real abuse comes from true exes, who probably left the cult so long ago that they no longer have any memory or understanding of the fragile state of recent exes, and who wade in with nastiness, sarcasm and outright hostility, when what is really called for is simply questioning and challenging in a civilised way. -- Mike

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:27:43 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Re: John and Pat: demolishing arguments Message:

Pat just doesn't think quickly. He NEVER stops to contemplate who he may be addressing and just where they may fit into the whole panorama. Nor for that matter do any other old hands. They just attack. And so many people ignore this place,and it's culture. I have been abused, discredited and continually attacked for at least 3 years here, often without foundation. When I give as good as I get, I get labelled a monster. Look at the posts from Deborah,from John T - hateful ,spiteful attacks.Hitting out with no comprehension of who they may be attacking.They also cannot accept anything outside of there limited methods of communication. It is quite a dangerous and uncaring enviroment.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:38:45 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: CW Subject: Cat, you protest too much Message:

Cat, For the bulk of the time I have been reading here, you have never said anything substantive. Recently you have occasionally said something, as in your post here, but as far as attempting serious discussion, I have no evidence you know how to. If you wish to prove me wrong, how about giving us your comments on John's revelation about Maharaji not reading personal mail to him, or even getting his staff to read it? John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:20:16 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: More can be done in that regard Message:

As a recent exe, I know fresh from experience the fragile and emotional state of mind that accompanies one through this process of getting a grip on the reality of what has really been going on with the Cult and M for many years and getting out. I was assaulted and jousted about for my cult apologist views, and I was almost turned tail and ran back to the cover of the cult rather than be ridiculed and harrassed but I didn,t. I managed to stay around and fight for my sanity as well as wage the inner war the battle the forces on the forum. I fortunately have a thick skin and I am glad that I did stick around, but I can understand those who don't, given the cult mentality. It is a tall order to fill finding the right voice for each newcomer in light of the deep programming that goes with the premie indoctrination and identity. Some people can take getting hit between the eyes, some can't. It is a tough question to state how this site should be, because there really is not one formula that fits all. I do not think that a big dose of sweetness and understanding is the prescription by itself ethier. Maybe a little more off site work would be helpful, I know that I have engaged several posters here through personal email communications and that has been good. Like Mike indicates in his post above, he has been in private conversation with several well-known premies and has begun a dialogue in reference to this site. That is how I heard about this place, another person going through the process clued me onto it. I have been testy at times, and rude, but that is just real life, real emotions that require a real outlet for real issue related to the cult and M that I have not found any other place besides here on F7 to vent. Mostly, I strive to be honest, articulate, civil and personally insightful in my dealings with others and my own personal concerns related to 29 years in a cult following an imposter. I would love to see more interaction with newcomers, and I would like the concenus to be that E7 is the place to start. When I mention the site to others, it seems that the forums reputation precedes it along the same lines about as inviting as a trip to the dentist without novacaine. There are many people who could be reached and helped if they want it, I have noticed a more accessable tone extended to the sincere premies who are willing to get off it and have a serious look instead of argue through their limitations or just give satsang and those whose sole purpose here is to provoke anger. I predict that things will accelerate soon out here given John's inside assessment of the impending soul rush for the exits. I hope that I can help a few find their way out

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:19:34 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: PS John and Mike Message:

Question John Mc and Mike F How would you personally deal with this? A few months ago a teenage girl started posting on the forum. She was charming and cheeky and flattered all the right people and told us that her parents had K for many years and she was thinking of getting K because she really loved M whenever she saw him BUT she said she had doubts because the premies were such a creepy cult. Everyone here welcomed her and talked to her like a long-lost sister and we joked and flirted and opened up our hearts to her. Then it became increasingly clear that she was telling quite a few porkies. Some of us challenged her and she turned around and snarled like the Tasmanian Devil and attack Abi by saying that she didn't give a fuck about Jagdeo raping a child and couldn't care less if Abi had been raped by a herd of wild elephants. When that persona was discredited this person then took on a new alias and a new persona, also a sweet vulnerable female, equally as charming and sweet and anti-cult but pro-M. Finally we found out that this person is a 50 year old male cynical premie pathological liar. Now with your nice approach to premies, how would you have dealt with this, John and Mike? PS John, it was this incident that made me so suspicious of anonymous premie posters. I'm just sorry I took it out on you.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:08:01 (EST) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Mike Finch Subject: Re: Mike/civility Message:

Well said Mike. I have many times alluded to the childish abuse that occurs here. Set against that is the fact that this is a free for all, unlike attitudes in the cult, and hence it is a litle reflection of the 'Real World' which we as premies distanced ourselves from at times. So maybe we just need to propogate, lovely word, the fact that this can be the first port of call for those who are faltering on the Divine Path. I mean that we need to remind ourselves in a regular way that this is a useful service as well as being a fun forum full of the rough and tumble. I must say that I forget how traumatic it can be for a recent deserter, it was 20 years ago for me. Thanks for your post and Best Wishes Tim

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:40:45 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: Mike Finch Subject: Mike, I was just thinking about that Message:

After I did the post to John, I thought: ''Yes, but for us recent exes, there really is a very scary time straight after exiting the cult. How do we deal with that?'' I got sick shortly after starting to post here. You did too. It is a very intense time. But most of my pain was subjective. Yes I was not treated with kid gloves but when I look back on my debut most of my suffering was caused by fear of the cacweasels who attacked me here and by email and I was also terrified of retaliation by the cult. You also recently said as much when you told Jim that you realized that his challenges to your first posts were not nearly as harsh as you thought at the time and that it was your vulnerability that exacerbated the pain. I know that the impression I formed of the forum before I had fully exited was every negative. It really is a difficult problem. John (and before him many others) have suggested a flame-free forum for new exes. RE is there for that and I would also suggest that new exes start by corresponding with those exes they trust by email and be led gently into posting on the forum. Even of we made rules of behaviour here they would be impossible to enforce for many reasons. But I agree we do need to put in place some sort of easy landing pad for new exes. Perhaps it has to be done individually since exes aren't very ''synchronized.'' Donner and Mickey and Disculta all offered their personal services in helping people to exit. I hope that your friends will correspond with you and perhaps put their toes in the water with your help. I try always to remember to put my email so that people who have known me in the past can contact me and they have. Many are still afraid to post here but not so much out of fear of exes as I have helped them to understand the dynamics of the forum but they are afraid of cult retaliation and having there names and addresses posted by CAC.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:29:44 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: True, but hostility is in the eye of the beholder Message:

Mike, I agree that I would like this environment to be as conducive as possible for people to say what they like and feel comfortable doing so. But I think there is one big problem there and maybe this is something we need to all be more aware of, and I think it's this: To a premie, to a person who is in a cult, the cult beliefs are so ingrained, so programmed, and so 'personal,' that there is very little division between attacking the 'beliefs' and attacking the 'person' from THEIR perspective. So, attacking the 'arguments' is seen as attacking 'them' and I don't know how you deal with that. And I am someone who has expended considerable effort to go after the 'arguments.' Although I admit to using sarcasm, I think that's often the best way to deal with a lot of the rubbish. I think it's very important to carefully respond to the arguments, although one often gets very little feedback (except from ex-premies) that it has any effect whatsoever on premies. So, we could get into a position that in making this place so comfortable for 'questioning' people that the actual beliefs wouldn't even get questioned. Does that make sense? See, from my perspective, Mike, I think you have really been handled with kid gloves around here. I haven't read everything, but I think people have treated you with a lot of respect. I know I have. Have you really been treated badly, accounting for the fact that everyone has different styles and dozens of ex-premies are around here at any given time? Maybe John's idea about multiple forums might be a good idea, although it's very hard to control. Also, keep in mind, that often when people leave, for a period after that, they can be quite angry and resentful of those 'beliefs' which they now consider irrational and damaging. For them, it's very hard to be comforting and warm to people they see espousing those very beliefs. This place is for them, too. I don't know what the answer is, but I'm sure one of them is for those of us who left the cult a long time ago and are now more detached from the emotional side of it, to remind ourselves what we felt like when we first left, how vulnerable, emotional, betrayed and fragile we felt. Just some thoughts. Thanks, Mike, Joe

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:41:13 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Joe Subject: True, but hostility is in the eye of the beholder Message:

So, we could get into a position that in making this place so comfortable for 'questioning' people that the actual beliefs wouldn't even get questioned. Does that make sense? Yes, it makes sense, but the important word there is 'could'. We 'could' get into the position that you describe; on the other hand, we also 'could' get into a position where beliefs are questioned and still the place is comfortable. See, from my perspective, Mike, I think you have really been handled with kid gloves around here. I haven't read everything, but I think people have treated you with a lot of respect. I know I have. Have you really been treated badly, accounting for the fact that everyone has different styles and dozens of ex-premies are around here at any given time? I think my point is that, no, I have not been treated badly, but when I first posted here I think that I was. But I also think that now it does not matter, and I want to move on. To a premie, to a person who is in a cult, the cult beliefs are so ingrained, so programmed, and so 'personal,' that there is very little division between attacking the 'beliefs' and attacking the 'person' from THEIR perspective. So, attacking the 'arguments' is seen as attacking 'them' I agree that your point may account for much of my feeling, but not , I think, all of it. In other words, I accept that my cult beliefs were ingrained (still are) and that it is a fine line between attacking me and attacking my beliefs. However, just because the line may be fine, does not mean it does not exist - and I think it would very constructive if it were recognised. I don't really want to get into a long involved thread over this, like I did with Jim a week or two ago. I think that as an issue it is beginning to vanish. The good quality posts from yourself, John, Pat and numerous others, that focus on the arguments and ideas, and are well written, are upping the whole quality of this Forum. The contrast with the negative posts are thus very obvious, and enable anyone to focus on the positive of this Forum, and ignore the negative, rather like you can read a book and ignore any dirt that may be on the page. I feel greatly encouraged by this, and as I say, I think this is ceasing to be a real issue, even though I have been responsible as much as anyone for creating an issue out of it !! -- Mike

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:57:51 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: I agree, and thanks. Message:

Thanks Mike, that makes a lot of sense. And I hope you are right that the tone has changed. Mike, it would really be great for you to write an analysis of where you are in all of this. Maybe take a particular issue and deconstruct it and let others comment. I think you write well, and it could be a benefit to everyone. I also have noted a change around here in the past few months. I'm not sure of the reason, but I know for me, the events of Sept. 11 in the US caused me to consider a lot of things, like what is really important, and how exposed and fragile we all are, just in living. I think those events made me both somewhat more serious and perhaps more forgiving. At least I hope so.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:15:36 (EST) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Joe Subject: The stakes have changed around here for me Message:

Mike: I join in Joe's comments. And even though I left in 1976, believe me, I remember what it was like to get out of DLM. I went through a lot of therapy to straighten my head back out. I am a bit testy here Mike, for a couple of reasons. I've been posting here for about 2-1/2 years. I don't really fight with the premies. I've had some nasty exchanges with cat, Bjorn, and a few other imbeciles. But I generally do not fight with the premies who come here to try and have some sort of dialogue. My tone is typically supportive, compassionate, and understanding. The tone of most of the exes generally is. Now these long time PAMs want me to treat them with emotional kid gloves. Well guess where my compassion got me with these people? Not to mention the fact that I have been out of the stupid cult for so many years... It got my name and a bunch of false and libelous information placed on the internet. Email has now been sent to lawyers in San Francisco who are colleagues of mine accusing me of criminal activity. This is libelous and civilly actionable. Look, this is just the same kind of stuff that the people around Jim Jones resorted to when Peoples Temple was falling apart. No one else has been subjected to this vicious attack -- only me. I am the only woman who was listed on the CAC sites. And I'll tell you that the people I suspect are behind it are people right around Maharaji. Why should I be so kind and understanding when I have been subjected to this kind of civil assault? I am furious with these people. The longer they stay in, the longer they remain silent and stand on the sidelines, the longer they allow this type of activity to continue unabated. And I'll tell you, this is just their starting point. They picked on a woman. They picked on someone who has been out for a long time and was only a peon in the organization. Why? Ask yourselves that. So I am in no mood to pity the poor, scared fence sitting premie. Fence sitting now means that you condone what was done to me, what was done to Abi, and what will be done in the future to other exes who have the temerity to speak the truth. I don't have much sympathy for these people anymore, or their little hurt feelings. By their silence, THEY are hurting me -- someone who has extended her hand and deeds to assist many, many people around here in ways that are never publicly discussed. That's the way cult members repay good deeds and good people -- they try to destroy them. And that is what they are trying to do to me. I intend to protect myself. Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:21:43 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: The stakes have changed around here for me Message:

Marianne, Firstly, thank you for your phone call the other night. Good to hear from you. Regarding the personal attack, I'm not sure you're right that it's because you're a woman. I think it's because you're a lawyer and hence open to attack through your professional status. Jim has been attacked similarly. I think Maharaji/EV is afraid of legal action and is trying to discredit potential adversaries. All the best, John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:49:16 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Joe Subject: Precisely, Joe Message:

Well said, Joe. One day I'll tell you just how much you intimidated me at first. I thought you were cold and cruel until I got to know you better and saw how loving you really are. Perhaps Mike Finch and John could start a forum run with this problem in mind. I'm sure John Brauns would be happy to give a prominent link on EPO. But, yes, the pain was often subjective. In fact I was just thinking how much cult-think I had in me even after many months of posting here and the fight I had with you feeling that you were coercing me. That was all in my own mind.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:23:33 (EST) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: All Subject: Practicing Knowledge? Message:

I no longer practice, I've got the hang of it now.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 15:54:59 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Tim G Subject: Breathing on your own now Tim? Wow! Message:

that is quite an accomplisment, going around inhaling and exhaling , tell me do you breathe more on purpose now that you have it down or is it something that just quite naturally occurs like it does for an infidel like me. Brian the Iron Lung

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:19:15 (EST) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: Breathing on your own now Tim? Wow! Message:

It's easy. Just a wing (and no prayer) Tim, who stopped puffing and blowing and occasionally hyperventilating years ago.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:33:22 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Tim G Subject: Knowledge? Why should I have to practice... Message:

....being a natural human being? Doesn't that come er naturally? If there is a god and the only way to find it is to have a greedy Hindu conman show you, then this creation is a sadistic joke and I for one don't think it is. Premies are not practicing knowledge. They are practicing ignorance.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:16:23 (EST) From: Tim G Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Nice one Pat. nt Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:23:08 (EST) From: **** again Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Knowledge? Why should I have to practice... Message:

What you do when you don't practice The K.?

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:15:19 (EST) From: Tim G Email: None To: **** again Subject: RE : When you don't Message:

Practice makes perfect. When you are no longer practicing you are doing it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:15:31 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: All Subject: Enough is Enough With These Trolls! Message:

I have had just about enough of the rambling, nonsensical, idiotic, and yes, abusive talk from CW, SC, and all variations of their characters. This is blantant misogyny, and it's getting more pornographic in nature as time goes on. And it's not only directed toward the women here. These trolls have nothing to say so they verbally abuse. Can these people please be blocked or warned or something? It's getting so bad, I know I find it difficult to resist responding, but it's always fruitless and initiates more abuse. Opinions, please..... Cynthia, waiting for a shitpie in the face...

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:30:07 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: BAN the TROLLS GERRY Message:

Their posts are getting more vicious all the time. I don't want to have to come here and swear. I don't like being upset yet at the same time it is difficult not to defend myself or the other posters (especially women) from their shit. Howcome Silvia gets banned from LG and Beavis and Butthead stay here. Doesn't make sense. They have their own crib to play in. Problem is, they know they are just bullshitting to try and debunk what is said here. So, why should they come to debunk. Their ugly posts get in the way.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:37:40 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Deborah Subject: It's no use Message:

I've banned these same trolls over and over and they always get around the block. If anyone has a suggestion as to how to proceed from here, let me know.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:40:45 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry, let them be Message:

The trolls here perform a useful service by showing rational readers how irrational premies are. John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:10:14 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Clear thinking? Message:

That is hysterical. In the true sense of the word. Pornographic????? Calm down and dont assume so much sister.The person answering you below me has been closer to 'pornographic' than anybody on this site. Have a look at what has really been said PS: SC has gone. I'm here all exposed and alone.(Why are people so unkind?Apologies Kamahl...) And I have NOT posted under another alias for over 6 months .

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:29:56 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: CW Subject: Hey Cat. Message:

How often are you briefed about what to say and what not to say on the forum? What do you know about the whereabouts of the Captain's paedophile pal? anth just wondering.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 18:04:26 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Hey Cat. Message:

Only once by the invetigating officer at the Federal Poice Office. The Victorian Police officer advised me that your course of action was very foolish. She stated that she thought you were not interested in conviction.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:33:50 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: If that's what everyone wants and Gerry agrees... Message:

.....I am willing to give some time to deleting those posts which get through in spite of blocking the trolls. I have been sickened by some of the stuff directed at the women here lately.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:41:16 (EST) From: Selene Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: one of the issues Message:

that bothered me from the past was a statement that the forum was not for exes but for premies to be able to read and see other viewpoints. Sorry to bring it up but I think it's an important point. From experience, I do agree premies who are doubting the cult benefit greatly from the EPO pages if they are wanting to leave and have no one to talk to the forum can help as well. I think it's obvious when someone is posting for those reasons vs. posting just to upset things. I see the ex premie forum as a place for exes too. We have a lot to discuss and for some, a lot to work through. NO EX should have to come here with that pit in the stomach or shitpile in the face feeling Deb and Cynthia describe.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:20:14 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Selene Subject: Thanks Pat and Selene... Message:

Hi, Catweasal and SC, et al, don't come here to discuss they come to abuse and play games. It's not hard for me to come here. I'm not afraid of those two nor CAC. My identity's been out for quite some time. My outrage over the recent CAC sites supercedes these inadequate humans. However, the feeling I do get when I post something and get a nasty back,(lately quite nasty) is to answer it because so often these remarks are so crude. Watching these misogynist creeps make fools of themselves can be entertaining, I'll be the first to admit. Yet so much time and space is wasted by responding and playing. It's not fun playing with these multiple personality trolls--who btw, don't do a very good job of it.())())()) They just go for the jugular, for women way below the belt. I don't want to dictate blocking anyone here. I just want folks to know that our Ex-Premie Forum deserves to have an atmosphere of discussion, fun, arguments between us if we so desire, and lack of abuse. Sorry for the abuse word, couldn't think up another one. Later, Love, Cynthia, chopping wood, not carrying water....

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:05:40 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Selene Subject: As Jim has pointed out many times Message:

It is the Cacweasel cult apologists who cause most of the nastiness here. Till now I have thought that even the weasels may eventually come around and realize just how very silly and anti-social they are and that that may lead them to examine their twisted thinking. But every time that I have offered my hand in friendship to a weasel it has been bitten. So, now my thinking on anonymouse premies who are hostile or deceitful is to block them. I just wish that they could continue to read but not post because there may be hope for them yet.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:53:50 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: All Subject: Why do Sicko Cacweasels post here and... Message:

....and make sites like CAC? Sicko Cultweasels are acting from very selfish motives. They can be as phony and fake and deceitful as they wish because their real audience is the EV honchos and Rev Rawat. They are giving their cult pals a good laugh at our expense. They really don't care what we or the naive church ladies think about their antisocial antics. IN 1976 through a new friend I made in London, I fell in with a certain class of premie whom I never known before. Many were wealthy or ambitious or both, actors, musicians, trust fund slummers, drug dealers, one high-class whore and two ''models.'' Most of them knew Rawat personally at least enough to be invited to private parties. I thought they were fun and amusing and so different from the church ladies of the ''cult'' whom I detested. These were the ''beautiful people'' of the cult, the jetset. I heard all the gossip about Rawat's boozing, drunk driving, drug taking and meat-eating. It was heady stuff. (At that time my then wife had left M. I thought she could be attracted back in if she met these premies as she was a ballet dancer and would fit in with the show-biz people. Her dry Scottish take on them: ''They're about as exciting as cold custard.'' It took me a little longer to figure that out. Not until I moved to the hotbed of the jetset, Malibu, in 1978 did I see through them. Mostly I did not have the money to keep up with them and money is what this class of premie is all about.) This class of premie would not be seen dead in an ashram, never did service and hardly ever attended satsang but they went to every single festival in every different country where they would parade around in the latest fashions and they always seem to have lots of money and cocaine. These are the ones who can afford to travel to Amaroo and India. They all know each other no matter where they live and always have large apres M parties. I've mentioned some of its members a couple of times. I won't now so that I can say that I have never ever met a more superficial, phony, insincere, immoral and selfish bunch of people in my life. The Sicko Cacweasels belong to this class. They are posting for each other. They honestly don't care if they alienate the naive and sincere church ladies of the cult by their vicious and antisocial behavior. In fact they have nothing but scorn for the church ladies and will tell you straight out that the church ladies created the cult not M. They would be glad to see the church ladies scram and leave M to them. They are doing us a great service because they are chasing away from the cult any premie who reads here who has a conscience and a sense of decency and goodness and honesty. Let them piss on the forum. You don't have to smell their droppings but any interested questioning premie who tries to understand the forum will read and see what the elite hard-core cult-members are really like. The church ladies are not the cult. They simply belong to a nice religion. The jetset is the real cult. In fact they created the cult around M. In fact they created the Rawat we know today. These phonies are the sort of people he likes and socializes with. He followed in their footsteps rather than the other way around. Of course they don't see that. But why should they? It is the blind leading the blind. Suchabanana was not too far off when he substituted Tony Robbins (the get-rich-quick guru) for Rev Rawat in his recent parody. The cult really is now mostly for the rich and is all about money. (Erika: ""I'm so smug and successful."" SC: ""I just bought another guitar and I'm rich and uncouth."" Catweasel: ""I just made $6,000 for $1 on the horse races."" Yes, he really did say that on AG today.) The hardcore cultists are emulating Rawat in his greed and superficial consumerism.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:14:21 (EST) From: Francesca ~) Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: **BEST, BEST, BEST of FORUM*** [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:57:08 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Francesca ~) Subject: Thanks, Francesca, but.... Message:

Maybe you should give me a prize for stupidity instead. I don't know how I missed this connection before. It was the coatrack cultweasels who visited my restaurant with the local EV honchos that finally made me vomit up the cult poison.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:05:20 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: They've trivialized themselves immensely Message:

Notice how they don't even bother to take on anything substantive? Like John M's posts, for instance. Like Joe's recent deconstruction (destruction?) exercises. These fools don't even bother anymore. They know the jig's up. They're just being poor losers.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:02:12 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: They've trivialized themselves immensely Message:

We all know John. We'll let his words stand. They speak for themselves. Delusion. It's a strange condition.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:21:06 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jim Subject: But they are putting up a fight Message:

Hissing and scratching like cornered weasels, spiteful, mean and full of hatred. These last hardcore CACweasel cult fanatics are the real Hate Club.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:28:20 (EST) From: don Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: you may be surprised pat, but I like this post. Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:26:41 (EST) From: don Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Why do Sicko Cacweasels post here and... Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 05:34:52 (EST) From: Sir Dave }( Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Correction Message:

CW made £6,000 in his dreams. I mean, ''If I had put a dollar on that bet etc etc''. It's what all gamblers say. I know, I've been one and once lost £11,000 in one bet. But if it had won...

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 05:55:52 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Sir Dave }( Subject: Correct Weight Message:

Dave ,so unkind!!I was actually castigating you for not advising me on the form of the horses I enquired about ,two of them subsequently saluting the judge. I asked about 4 horses. Only 24 Horses in the race. My comment was on what excellent value the bet represented. The Melbourne Cup holds an absolutely mammoth pool. When was the last time 'the Jetsetter's' invested $1 as a serious gamble?Jesus Pat you are unbelievably twisted.What a load of unadulterated pap, all of it! A good gambler never discusses their winnings.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 05:06:50 (EST) From: Tonette Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: That's all they have. Message:

This is all they have. No real talent or goals or meaningful relationships. Just the jet set phony world of belonging in the cult. The sad thing is they think that they are at the top of their game! What game? Is the cult worth anything? Nope. Maharaji is bullshit. His master speal is bullshit! And these unfortunate people don't even realize it. Hey, Pat did I tell you I realized Knowledge??????? Yes, indeed. Guess what, thinking that the hum of your nervous system is God, is bullshit! So Catweasel and others come here for attention mainly and come here to justify their very beliefs. See, in defending their cult through their prose, they can continually reinforce their delusions. Repeat something over and over and to most people it can become true. Take care, Tonette

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 10:10:39 (EST) From: Selene Email: None To: Tonette Subject: repeating something over and over Message:

my friend and I were just talking about someone we knew giving a version of something that happened over and over, to the point where she could believe it was true. His exact words were 'it's the oldest trick in the book, convince enough people and it becomes the truth' I've seen these types at the googoo get-togethers. Kind of an ageing iggy pop look to the men and the women are rail thin with these very expensive clothes hanging off em. Last time they were clustered outside smoking together and fauning over michael Nouri. They don't seem to realize that most people could care less about any of it. Even the church ladies don't really notice them. I was studying them because I knew my days were numbered and they were fascinating, but not for the reasons they thought. More like an interesting phenomenon. Some of those I knew were much more idealistic and sincere in the beginning. On one of my last attendences my travel companion and I were asked to one of those parties. I thought he was going to die from the excitement. I left him in LA, his choice, he would rather have hassled with getting home on a standby or whatever than miss that party.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:05:59 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Selene Subject: Hi Selene! Message:

How are you? I always hated those rail thin, shee-shee-shaa-shaa, nose up in the air rich PAMs too. They made me so sick, thinking they were something special, with all their Rodeo Drive getups, looking down their noses at us ashram premies who were in thread bare clothes. Snobs! All of them... Hope you're doing well, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:17:14 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Smoking with Michael Nouri Message:

Sounds like a good title for one of the cult video magazine broadcasts like ''Connections.'' They could also have ''Gossiping with Charanand.'' The ultra-thin xray premies in designer clothes have become the only real regulars at M revivalist meetings. After dropping out of premiedom in the early 80s I went to a few events in the 90s. I noticed that a lot of the old faces (the hippies and peons) were not around anymore but the jetset was still there in full force looking more and more like skeletons or coatracks. Of course they never did any service (that was for the poor deluded church mice er ladies) and hung around yakking and smoking with the EV stars until just before the event when they all rushed in a sat in the front seats for which they had paid very well. They took what many of us thought was a continuation of the love and peace revolution and turned it into an upscale and chic Tony Robbins movement. Did they follow Rawat's example or did he follow theirs? All I can say is that they deserve each other.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:23:14 (EST) From: Selene Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Smoking with Michael Nouri Message:

Did they follow Rawat's example or did he follow theirs? All I can say is that they deserve each other. To paraphrase Abby Hoffman 'If he is god he is the god his coatracks deserve'

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 15:49:28 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Selene Subject: No coatracks, my dear... Message:

He has premie slaves who whisk those capes, shawls, furs, (petite wraps of all colors and fabrics) into the guest closet which, btw, is 1,500 sq. feet. Lined in cedar, it has a mini-bar so those ulra-neurotic SPAMS can have a quick nipper before sucking on the holi toes. A special ''Enjoying Life'' refreshment table complete with boogers from his plate of prassad is provided. And get this: a gold plated toilet, preserved from the B707, sits in an ebony/marble tiled 'powder room' to be used as a trophy for all those big donors who laugh as they do about those inferior working, tackily dressed premies. And they have the nerve to cyberstalk!

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 15:57:03 (EST) From: Selene Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: haha I hope you are joking? Message:

But would not be at all surprised if you are not. so, uh, is there a place like this? Do I want to know, I just ate. Well if it's true I'm glad they are being resourceful and recycling the gold toilet.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:34:52 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Selene Subject: The god of the coatracks? LOL [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 15:37:09 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Where is Rennie Davis when he is really needed Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:04:02 (EST) From: Selene Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: wannabee snobs more likely Message:

Talk about your big fish in a little pond syndrome. hmm.. missed the rodeo getups. The ones in the late nineties had the $500 an aritcle from a boutique hippie grunge look. I'm ok, very busy with work and family. hope all is well for you too.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:22:59 (EST) From: Andrea Eriksonn Email: None To: Selene Subject: Ladies, please! You make is sound like... Message:

... a CRIME to be well-dressed and enjoying life. If Maharaji, my wonderful TEACHER, not cult-leader, has taught me anything, it is not to go without the good things in life. He is such a good role model for us all. If some of premies, I mean, the students of Maharaji were too thick so figure it out, it's hardly the fault of successful, normal, not-in-a-cult premies. But I don't mean to sound harsh (because I am nice and do care), and certainly those grungy Indian Mahatma's are much to blame, with their poverty conciousness, which is why Maharaji fired them all and replaced them with DVDs. And my husband, Scotch, and I, have always believed in giving a leg up to students of Maharaji who are a few sandwhiches short of a picnic. Why just the other day, I was thinking, where is that Paulinie Premie person? It's getting cold with winter comming, and she lives in her car and must be running out of blood and extra organs to sell to get money to attend The Teacher's speaking events. It just so happens that Scotch and I live on a charming 10 acre antebellum estate, that still has a functioning slave cabin on the premises. I'm just SURE that Pauline would feel at home there, she could burn sticks in the woodstove to keep warm after doing our yardwork for us, and do our laundry in exchange for food. She could be trained to help at local video events, and if she shows promise, and if she keeps her hands clean, Themla might even consider showing her how to straighen some white table cloths. We really are only too happy to help fellow students of Maharaji. But you ex-students, you really are just too naughty. I suggest you read the articles on my website: ''Please Consider This, not THAT''. Read them over and over and over again, until you finally come to your senses and come back to The Teacher. Do that, or be CACked, which unfortunately for you, you richly deserve. Not that I have anything to do with CAC sites, (I'm really too nice to do that), but just as the sun is certain to set every day, foolish ex-students of The Master-Teacher must expect to get their butts kicked. It's not MY fault, it's just nature taking it's course. Entertain doubt, take the consequeces. You almost tricked me into going there, but I know better than THAT now. If you only ever read the GOOD websites about Maharaji, you wouldn't be so confused. Anyway, enough time wasted on you lot. Read my website, or suffer, your choice. I have to take the dog to the vet, not yell at some people in my office who don't have Knowledge, and have lunch with a fellow student of Maharaji, while we probably won't even mention Maharaji's name because we are NOT in a cult! Not Confused, - Andrea Eriksonn, NEVER in a cult, and kindly understanding that you are evnvious and bitter ex-students who need a good talking-too, but are far too dangerous to talk with.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:18:55 (EST) From: Brother Hal N. Back Email: None To: Andrea Eriksonn Subject: One question, Andrea Message:

What are you wearing right now? Excuse my forward question but do have mercy on this lonely old soul. All your talk of going in and out of closets and slinky clothes has caused 'that feeling' to arise in 'that place', if you catch my meaning. I can also make myself available for confession should there be anything bothering you, say a late night meeting with The Speaker' in said closet. Yours in perpetuity, Brother Hal N. Back Church of the Ultimate Assumption (and dear friend of Postie)

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:28:30 (EST) From: Selene Email: None To: Andrea Eriksonn Subject: it's not the clothes its the shopping Message:

I need servants to shop for me. And well.. their choice of clothes is kinda funny. Only at an M event. You really *are* so nice. Thank you for not talking to me.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:04:21 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Oh ,I dunno........ Message:

I hope that pleases you Tonnette.That's exactly why I come here. Actually I'm just like a dung beetle. Try and imagine me driving my BMW Series 5. My six spiny arms clutching the steering wheel whilst I chew my cud and contemplate more takeaway from this great site.My incredible panoramic eyes scanning 360 degrees for fresh food!! When I think of you Tonnette, I see this chrsytalline vision of the Goddess Dianna waving seductively to me from the altar of a run down Baptist Church. Your long hair(Blonde?) flutters dangerously , exposing your God-like inner thighs. I gaze into that mandala of divine pleasure..... and wake up Drunk on the floor....Damn Damn Damn!!

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 05:25:56 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Tonette Subject: You got it, Tonette. Message:

You said: ''So Catweasel and others come here for attention mainly and come here to justify their very beliefs. See, in defending their cult through their prose, they can continually reinforce their delusions. Repeat something over and over and to most people it can become true.'' Precisely and to reinforce the belief system that they share with their invisible (to us) audience of other cynical thoroughly modern PWKs. No morals or sense of belongng to the human race, elitist, smug and dangerously deluded. Hey, guys, no wonder you're all alcoholics. But booze really is no substitute for a good night's natural sleep with a clean conscience. You take care too, Tonette. Now I must go to bed.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:10:27 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: You got it, Tonette. Message:

Funnily enough Pat you must be projecting. I dont drink much, I'm far too busy. I come here to view the greatest travesty of sensibility available on line.And group think, and cultish behavior.Two opponents!! Think yourself lucky . I reckon the sun must be shining right up your back passage Pat. Take a seat,the rest of us have to get some sleep.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:35:53 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: CW Subject: You prove my point in spades, Cacweasel [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 03:18:00 (EST) From: Larry hart Email: SolutionsLD@aol.com To: All Subject: Blue Aquarius Message:

Hello, In the 70's I was involved with the Apostles in Atlanta and Blue Aquarius in Malibu. I'm looking for any ex-premies who were associated with us. Please drop me an email and let's chat. Thanks

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 02:03:28 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: All Subject: CAC, Elan Vital, and Maharaji-Alert Message:

People have used the false and libelous information contained on the CAC websites in order to contact members of the legal community in San Francisco and make false, libelous accusations about me. You will be hearing from my attorneys. Marianne Bachers

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 17:07:08 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: CAC, Elan Vital, and Maharaji-Alert Message:

Shit! Did you ever imagine that we were once following an extremely evil person like RAWAT. He succeeded at his game of cult leader. Now he's busted. He should take it like a man. If anyone gets hurt that is an ex. Maha will have to watch his back. This will be the straw that breaks the camel's back with many many premies. If Rawat causes any personal harm to anyone, people will go after him with avengence.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:14:31 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Marianne Subject: My Email To EV re Attack Sites Message:

Thanks, Marianne. Sorry to hear that the illegal activity continues and that you have been further victimized. In regard to the two remaining Maharaji cult attack sites, I sent the following email yesterday to Elan Vital: November 6, 2001 Dear Elan Vital Board of Directors and Elan Vital Public Relations Department: Re: Further Attacks Against me by Your Members You may recall that I complained to your organization in August, 2001, when some of your members set up an attack website against me and others called 'stopcyberstalkers.' In the past few days, five new such attack sites have appeared on the Intenet. I have complained to the servers and three of those websites were eventually removed. However, two of those sites remain. One is at www.powow.com/right2hate. That site lists ex-premie.org with a bunch of 'hate' sites, including neo-nazi, Anti-Semitic, Anti-Christian, and Anti-Gay sites. In the section of the 'anti-Maharaji' sites, six individuals are listed. The site is vicious, and associates me with such hate groups. This is both libelous and defamatory to me. The second site is http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineABuse/ and on that site I am listed, along with the name of my employer, and I am accused of various criminal activities. The accusations are false and defamatory. This site specifically refers to Elan Vital and is defending your organization. It also provides a link to the above website as 'proof' of my 'hate group' activities. The purpose of this email is to demand that Elan Vital cease any involvement it may have in these criminal and illegal websites, take a public position on behalf of your organization and Mr. Rawat that it opposes such activities, and immediately contact the servers for those websites and ask that they be removed. This would conceivably have some impact as Elan Vital is specifically mentioned in those sites. Both Elan Vital and Mr. Rawat have moral obligations to take such actions, to counteract the illegal and very damaging activities of your members. Since these kinds of attacks by followers of Maharaji appear to now be chronic, as well as illegal, activity, Mr. Rawat, more than ever, must make a public statement saying he does not approve of such actions, of he will be seen by his fanatical followers as having his approval. You may contact me at the above email address, or call me at _______. I look forward to your prompt response. Joe Whalen

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 14:28:03 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe and Marianne, what I want to know... Message:

....is can we sue Rawat since the sites are done to silence his critics? My thinking is that if Rawat continues to allow CAC sites then he is condoning them. It is up to him to prove that he is not behind them. Perhaps you should answer me by email rather than here as I am thinking about consulting an attorney on this.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 02:09:59 (EST) From: FYI Email: None To: Marianne Subject: CAC site is gone Message:

We're behind you...go for it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 02:37:34 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: FYI Subject: False info on site was used Message:

Some of the sites may be gone -- some are still there -- but the false and libelous information contained therein has been used to damage my professional reputation, just as I warned EV it would. The legal fallout belongs to them and the persons who authored the emails. Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 03:32:44 (EST) From: Zelda Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: False info on site was used Message:

Marianne dammit. I hope your lawyers deal with them in a slow and deliberate manner so that ev and maraji are not able to hide behind the scenes - by letting the fools that put up CAC take the fall as 'zealots that were acting on their own behalf' I hope pams who were in on the strategy will help. dammit Z

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:10:42 (EST) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: All Subject: Explanation of incongruities, John???? Message:

John: I've read your most recent PAM post again several times. It has always been my belief that when the folks surrounding Captain Rawat -- those who shore up his image and permit the facade to remain intact for those who have no access -- started to bail out and tell the truth, the ship would surely founder. The vast majority of M's devotees have no such access. All they see is that there are a slew of people who fight like hell to get close to the guy, and to stay there. They have no way to meaningfully evaluate how M lives his life and treats others, except for his public appearances. Exposing M and the cult for that which they really are can only be done by those who have this inside information. Many people came to and stayed with M and DLM/EV because of the people who surround the guy. Lives were diverted from other career and family paths by those who perpetuate the fraud. By telling the truth, by pulling back the curtain which has shielded M and his operation from public scrutiny -- and the scrutiny of those who have invested their lives and incomes -- you are giving people information upon which to make a real choice about the directions of their lives. I thank you for doing that from the bottom of my heart. When newly departed premies surface on the forum, they often tell us just what it was that pushed them over the edge and made them leave. In his Journey, Anth coined the term 'the last drip' to describe this recognition. You mentioned two issues which seemed to be pivotal in your own decision: Jagdeo's molestation of children and M's personal and corporate response to it, and CAC. I realize that you told us that you would talk about Jagdeo on another occasion, but I what I am most interested in is what was it about that whole sad, still evolving debacle that convinced you to leave the cult? What information did you learn, what conversations did you have, or what soul searching did you experience that made Jagdeo one of your final drips? And what about this CAC stuff? Obviously I have an interest in it because I have been named on several of the sites. I suppose I should not be surprised by this, but the information on those sites with respect to some of us is totally false. Some of the information written about me is false and libelous. Do these people actually think that the targets -- me included -- would sit back and do nothing? What has been written on EPO is primarily an expose' of Captain Rawat and his empire, and the story of how he accumulated it. Much of the story comes from first hand accounts of those who were there, are there, and have identified themselves. If these people still follow Captain Rawat, and do so because they are experiencing 'that peace within', why do they feel compelled to libel the critics and risk being sued themselves, as well as setting up the Captain himself, EV and its Board of Directors, for lawsuits? If the guy is so great, why does he need these attack dogs? Are any of these factors part of what disturbed you about CAC? What exactly was/is it about the sites that was a decisive drip for you? The CAC sites to me are a disturbing phenomenon. They are dangerously close to being the verbal equivalent of Fakiranand's hammer to Pat Halley's head, after Captain Rawat got pied in Detroit (something I witnessed). This kind of devotional display, however overtly or covertly encouraged, suggests to me that there is an element out there who will do anything to protect the 'master's' reputation from being further smudged, even when what we say is true. The EV search for 'PAM' after your first post smacks of the same kind of paranoid hysteria. Any thoughts or comments you have about these matters would be appreciated. Marianne Bachers

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 09:43:29 (EST) From: John Email: johnmac@turboweb.net.au To: Marianne Subject: Explanation Message:

Hi Marianne, Yeah, I think we'll see more of those close to M come out over the next year. And gain more insight into the real person. Of course there's a lot of info out there already, and I sometimes wonder if someone shouldn't write it all up into a single, tight document, to circulate to premie friends and fence-sitters and new people... As I've been trying to explain to premie friends today, the idea of such information is not to defame, but to allow people to make informed choices. Re my final drips, which included Jagdeo: I'm the loving father of two daughters. When it became sufficiently clear that the crimes had happened, that M had been told about them more than once, that M had not only failed to act but had kept Jagdeo on the instructors' circuit, and that even M's PR advisors were disgusted with him for this... What else could any sane person do but dissociate themselves from him? There just wasn't a choice. It was torpedo amidships. As for CAC: As far as I can tell, most of the stories about M on EPO - horrific as some of them are - are true. They are well-attested, frequently cross-corroborated, and fleshed out with convincing detail. I personally can corroborate some of them; PAMs and ex-PAMs I know can corroborate others. The stuff on the CAC site, on the other hand, is distorted at best, and sheer fabrication at worst - and is, worst of all, merely an attempt to intimidate people into silence. Thus I don't buy the premie argument that exes are getting a dose of their own medicine. I don't think CAC IS their own medicine. Anyway, when such medicine is dispensed, one can only respond vigorously. (Churchill rather than Chamberlain needs to be our model here, IMO.) The 'good' thing about CAC is that such desperate approaches - which are clearly causing M much harm, including among his own constituency - may characterise a dying cult. And, further, may serve to actually hasten its death: every premie I've told about CAC is genuinely disgusted. Best wishes to you Marianne, John

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 12:04:39 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: John Subject: Re: Explanation Message:

John, you say: 'As I've been trying to explain to premie friends today, the idea of such information is not to defame, but to allow people to make informed choices.' And I say you are 1000% correct. The above expresses succinctly my only motivation for posting here. Richard - who never sent viruses to anyone nor advocated anyone to drug and kidnap Maharaji’s brother or anything else myself and others are accused of on the Halt On-Line Hate website

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:22:38 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: John Subject: Harboring a Paedophile??? Message:

John, I know you are writing a post on Jagdeo, but I think this part of your post here contains new information:- Re my final drips, which included Jagdeo: I'm the loving father of two daughters. When it became sufficiently clear that the crimes had happened, that M had been told about them more than once, that M had not only failed to act but had kept Jagdeo on the instructors' circuit, and that even M's PR advisors were disgusted with him for this... What else could any sane person do but dissociate themselves from him? Let us be clear here - Maharaji continued to allow Jagdeo to tour, against advice, with presumably no arrangements to keep him away from children, after he (Maharaji) was told about Jagdeo's crimes. The new (to me) information is that some sort of discussion took place with his PR advisers and Maharaji was specifically advised against allowing him to tour. Cab you give more details? Looks like the 'Harboring a Paedophile' headline will soon be returning to EPO. John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 03:47:05 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Marianne Subject: I suggest ***** best of **** nomination Message:

Love, ++++ JM

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 21:02:28 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Explanation of incongruities, John? Message:

you say this Marianne...'there is an element out there who will do anything to protect the 'master's' reputation from being further smudged...' I think you're right. Here is an extract from the 1st post I made on the internet (last year) after digesting,& being freaked out by,the information on EPO. It's hearsay. ....'2 or 3 years ago a friend of mine approached a well known English premie & long time Dlm/Ev stalwart for advice about what to do about a premie (now ex) who was disrupting the local video events. The stalwart said more or less that the occasional freakout was nothing to get bothered about. When it got to someone who was consciously obstructing m's work however, & they would'nt stop then in the end the only thing you could do was kill them. I was very taken aback when I heard this but then I remembered that the stalwart had; often been the guy at the wheel of m's 20foot juggermerc when it did a racing exit through a crowd of darshan hungry premies;would have got a gold medal if the diving pranam was an Olympic event, & was a high octane hellfire satsang giver. I decided that what he'd said was overblown rhetoric brought on by an excess of zeal & forgot about it. He wasn't being serious........was he?'

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 21:51:41 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: PatD Subject: You're too damn cute, PatD Message:

''....the diving pranam was an Olympic event....'' Maybe we can include that event in our next Baby Throwing Festival. I imagine the dead cyclist was trying the ''bicycle darshan dash'' when Rawat killed him.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 21:41:23 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: PatD Subject: Death threats against Exes? Message:

Shit, can anyone confirm this?

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:55:19 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: Death threats against Exes? Message:

I talked to the guy who told me this in the summer. He said he had no recollection of having said any such thing. He's still a premie,although no longer synchronised,smokes a lot of dope,& is a good friend who I go out of my way to see a couple of times a year. I don't consider him to be the kind of person who makes things up so I can only conclude that he's genuinally forgotten. When you're connected to M ,memory is something that is often self suppressed. I bumped into the ex in question last year when I was still a premie & we went for a drink & talked for an hour or so. Rawat never came up in the conversation so I have no idea whether or not she knew what the honcho had said. She doesn't live in England now & is not the sort of person to be bothered about messing around with computers,so it's unlikely that I will ever know. I dug that story out of the archives(written in a paranoid early ex frame of mind) to back up Marianne's point, that there could very well be some people out there who are prepared to go well beyond the pale in order to protect the Lord. Whether or not the honcho who told my friend that people who persist in hindering the Most Important Human should be killed is one of them , I have no idea.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:24:02 (EST) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: All Subject: Maharaji Cult Attack Update Message:

Okay, so from what I can tell, there are two Maharaji cult attack sites still up. One is at www.powow.com/right2hate That site lists ex-premie.org with a bunch of 'hate' sites, including neo-nazi, Anti-Semitic, Anti-Christian, and Anti-Gay sites. In the section of the 'anti-Maharaji' sites, six ex-premies are listed. The site is pretty vicious, but also pretty stupid. I wonder if the site is part of Scott Ritter's statement that Maharaji wanted them to engage in a 'radical new approach' for dealing with us ex-premies at EPO. In any event, the site is a travesty. The site is listed on a free homepage site. The place to complain about this hate site and get it taken down is: abuse@freehomepages.com I strongly suggest that the ex-premies listed on that site email the server immediately and complain. I believe this is one of the same servers that had one of the CAC reproductions, and when I complained, they immediately took it down. The other website is kind of hysterical, and there are a bunch of us listed there, but I for one would just as soon see it stay there. That site is located at: http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineABuse/ The reason I don't mind the site is because it gives links to EPO and it's so ludicrous. Plus, it appears to be defending Elan Vital. What a joke. One thing I do object to is being called a 'paralegal' I resent that (no offense to any paralegals out there), but I am NOT a paralegal, a lawyer, or anything related, thank you very much. At least get your slimy attacks right, you cult-idiots. Anyhow, I might be in the minority here. If anyone else wants to get that hysterical site taken down, you can email the server and complain at their website at www.netomia.com.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 02:06:53 (EST) From: FYI Email: None To: Joe Subject: CAC site is gone Message:

Poor babies.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:05:27 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: FYI Subject: Hey, dummy: 2 attack sites remain Message:

http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineABuse/ www.powow.com/right2hate Check it out, poor baby.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:12:00 (EST) From: FYI Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Hey, dummy: 2 attack sites remain Message:

Sorry, you misunderstood me. Poor babies referred to the perpetrators of the CAC site. I was trying to make the point that one down, two more to go. The jerks behind these attacks should be dealth with.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:18:02 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: FYI Subject: Sorry, I'm a little keyed up Message:

Especially to hear what has now happened to Marrianne at the hands of those cowardly jerks.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:43:53 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Joe Subject: Jim and Dettmers EPO! Message:

According to the hate sites site, www.powow.com/right2hate, EPO is Jim Heller's and Mike Dettmers' site. I think this small error is related to Bjorn's statement that he has only read a few pages on EPO. Premies are unable to actually read through EPO, so whatever wrong ideas about EPO thay have stay stuck in their heads. Regarding http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineABuse/ I am also happy for this one to remain. As I said when it was first announced, it could be an ex-premie site. My only complaint is that I've never been a beer exporter, but it's not that bad a profession to be tarred with:-) John

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:40:27 (EST) From: FYI Email: None To: Joe Subject: Links are bogus Message:

The links on Halt Hate Online (they should take their own advice) are bogus, and when you click on them, they lead to some page that you have to login to, most likely the entrance to Eagle's Nest in Austria. I'd like to see them all go.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:14:47 (EST) From: Scott T. Email: None To: All Subject: Scott Ritter is a premie???!!! Message:

On other occasions, I actually downplayed my information to protect my identity. For example Scott Ritter himself, and not an intermediary, approached me, early this year, about his brief to employ 'radical new approaches' to countering EPO. I'm sorry I never made this connection, but we *are* talking about the same Scott Ritter who was in charge of the weapons inspection program in Iraq, was removed from that post, and is now conducting speaking appearances urging not only that we lift sanctions but that we not regard Saddam Hussein as a threat to US security, and that we just forget about his development of gas, biological and nuclear weapons. *THIS* Scott Ritter??? Jesus Christ!!! --Scott

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 11:34:03 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Scott, read your email...;) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:26:21 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Jesus, Scott, you are joking, I hope Message:

They are NOT the same person. You have got to be kidding. The inspections Ritter is a former Marine, and is probably 10 years younger than Scott Ritter the premie, who has apparently risen to the lofty heights of the Maharaji Cult, such that Maharaji apparently gave him marching orders to 'do something radical' about the nuisance of EPO.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:00:53 (EST) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Joe Subject: Well, you never know Message:

Apparently M's former head of security is a three-star stationed at the Pentagon, so being a former Marine and a premie aren't mutually exclusive. It's not that common a name. I've also not been following the CAC stuff very carefully, so have no idea who (or what) Scott Ritter is. Just read Cynthia's post that she knows him though, so it's obviously not *that* Scott Ritter. Odd name coincidence though, especially since I saw him on the History Channel the other night, and his position was at least plausible. However his contention that Saddam "has more to worry about than his weapons program" just doesn't reassure me somehow. I mean, he has a body double so maybe he's hired some temporary help to take care of the excess workload? --Scott

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 17:29:53 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: is this him? Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:47:23 (EST) From: Scott T. Email: None To: salsa Subject: Nah, I think that's Johnny Winter Message:

in a snow storm.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 15:39:05 (EST) From: **** Email: None To: All Subject: cult Message:

You are the cult.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:59:23 (EST) From: ******** Email: None To: **** Subject: cunt Message:

you are a cunt.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 08:42:21 (EST) From: Nottingham Bunnie Email: None To: ******** Subject: Language Message:

I have a cunt and it's lovely. Are you calling this poster lovely, or as I suspect, do you have the wrong description? Nottingham Bunnie (and fan of Lennie Bruce)

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 00:05:43 (EST) From: Mummiji Email: None To: **** Subject: You must be dyslexic, dear ... Message:

The cult are you! :) Lovijis and hugsijis, you 4 star cult person! ())

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 18:32:24 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: **** Subject: Re: cult Message:

You are the lost fool!

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 16:59:34 (EST) From: Gregg Email: None To: **** Subject: Who, me? (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:14:08 (EST) From: **** 123 Email: None To: Gregg Subject: nt Message:

You are nice people.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:48:08 (EST) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: All Subject: I am so disappointed in Mitch Ditkoff Message:

Mitch Ditkoff is a Real Disappointment In my earlier article about why Maharaji is the leader of a cult, I mentioned Mitch Ditkoff’s nonsensical article on his “Please Consider This” website (Is Maharaji the Leader of a Cult? dated August 15, 2001). The article meanders all over the place, is amazingly self-contradictory, and the only conclusion I can come to is that Mitch thinks all those “innocent bystanders,” whom he says he is attempting to address, are idiots. God knows he has no qualms about insulting their intelligence. Mitch says that the “cult” issue is the “biggest complaint” of that “small percentage” of Maharaji’s former followers who “dislike him intensely.” Where Mitch gets those characterizations and statistics, except perhaps from a certain portion of his anatomy, he doesn’t say. First, Mitch gives us the “its-all-relative” speech we have heard so many times from Maharaji apologists. That’s the EST-like theory that you can’t really judge what “cult” means because it’s all just opinion and perspective. (Mitch revives this theory throughout his article.) Then, in literally the next sentence, Mitch does a complete about-face and compares his cult to an “objective definition” which he claims to have discovered while researching cult experts. From Mitch’s extensive “research” he quotes a definition of “cult” by Dr. Michael Langone, currently Executive Director of the American Family Foundation (AFF), and author of a number of books on cults. It will be no surprise to you that Mitch determines the Maharaji cult doesn’t meet the definition. What Mitch seems to have missed in his “research” however, is that Dr. Langone’s organization lists Elan Vital/Maharaji as a group many claim to be a cult, and Dr. Langone himself, in his book Recovery from Cults, (W.W. Norton, 1995), clearly concludes that what Maharaji is leading is most definitely a “cult” (page 41). Funny how Mitch missed those things in his “research.” Note to all “innocent bystanders”: Whose conclusion are you likely to accept? The expert on cults who actually wrote the definition Mitch is trying to twist to his own purposes, or Mitch Ditkoff, an admitted member of the cult he is trying desperately to prove isn’t one for entirely propaganda and damage control purposes? Since most people, bystanders or not, were not born yesterday, the answer should be obvious. Another follower of Maharaji writing on another cult website joins Mitch’s slide into this kind of disingenuous banter. Josie Winter quoted Marc Galanter’s definition on the “It Ain’t So” website, from Galanter’s book, Cults: Faith and Coercion. Although Ms. Winter, like Mitch, engages in a lengthy argument about how the Maharaji cult doesn’t meet the definition, she apparently was too busy to notice that Galanter, in that very book, also determined that the Maharaji cult is, indeed, a cult. From that rather inauspicious start, it’s downhill from there for Mitch, I am afraid. Next, he says that maybe Maharaji used to be the leader of a cult, but not anymore. Sure, in those bad old days it was weird due to the followers’ “spiritual immaturity,” but that was the fault of the followers not Maharaji (of course), and moreover, that “quirky” behavior has “gone the way of bell bottoms.” Mitch really ought to get out more, because bell bottoms (and hip-hugger jeans) are very much back in fashion these days (why, I have no idea). He also appears to have failed to make it to the last Amaroo event with Maharaji at which ARTI was sung and Maharaji’s followers lined up for the very un-cult-like ritual of kissing Maharaji's feet. That was in April of this year, so maybe Mitch is implying that Maharaji stopped being the leader of a cult around Memorial Day, but I’m not sure. Regarding ARTI, just for the benefit of those “innocent bystanders,” here are just some of the words: Creator, Preserver, Destroyer, bow their heads and pray to You [Maharaji]… Give yourself to Satguru Sacrifice yourself to Satguru [Maharaji]… Many past forms you have taken… Now we have come in your control Again You have come to save the soul… To lead Your devotees from darkness You have come as Hansa the pure soul Mitch does admit that there has been a lot of excessive devotion expressed to Maharaji, including, “scrubbing the grout between bathroom tiles with a toothbrush for a house that Maharaji was going to stay in for a single night.” But Mitch again retreats into cult-relativism because, he says, what does excessive mean anyway? Why, according to Mitch, this kind of mass-worship and bizarre hygiene requirements, are really no different than his son’s fascination with Game Boy, and his wife’s views of Mitch spending three hours watching a baseball game. Plus Henry Miller’s prose is also excessive, so who can really say what the word means? Right, Mitch. It’s all the same. Game Boy, baseball, and feet-kissing ceremonies are just equivalent levels of excessive dedication. See what I told you? Mitch surely thinks those poor “innocent bystanders” are beyond stupid. Mitch continues on in this fashion for the rest of the article. Sure, he says, there is “group pressure” in the Maharaji cult, but (I am not kidding you here) it’s really no different than the group pressure he felt at “summer camp “and in “Little League.” Later, Mitch says, yes, maybe premies did isolate from their families, like in the ashrams, but that was just normal “individuation” and quite “predictable.” Sure, Mitch, everybody follows a “master” who says that he is your family and not your biological one. Quite normal, really. But maybe it’s true that without the ashram, Mitch would still be living with his mother. I suppose it was part of Maharaji’s divine plan to save Mitch from that, but it’s all relative and what does that mean anyway? Mitch just dismisses the allegations of “mind control” in the cult by saying that he doesn’t recall Maharaji ever attempting to “manipulate, control or unethically persuade” him. I previously discussed eight different examples of the specific mind control techniques used in the Maharaji cult, all of which have been extensively researched by experts like Mitch’s friend Dr. Langone, and I won’t go into them here, but let me mention another one. Surely Mitch recalls the tirades of Maharaji and his minions about how our “mind” shouldn’t be listened to, that it is on a mission to make us miserable and kick us off the path of knowledge and devotion. Specifically, Maharaji said that your mind was a “fly” that must be “smashed,” a “snake that must be killed,” and that leaving the practice of knowledge was to jump from a ship into shark-infested waters. Why anyone would think those kinds of statements to people who were also engaging in excessive dedication would be seen as attempts at manipulation and persuasion appears to be beyond Mitch. But I liked the following quote from Mitch the best, which is a kind of summation of what Maharaji is all about: Maharaji’s goal, from what I can tell, has always been to make the experience of knowledge available to as many people on the planet as possible. Plain and simple. That is his reason for being. He cares about people’s lives flourishing, not being diminished. I wonder if Mitch can point to any evidence that Maharaji ever cared about the fate of other human beings. Philanthropy appears to be something Maharaji lacks in its entirety. As for spreading knowledge to the “people on the planet,” that either isn’t Maharaji’s priority, or he has done a lousy job at carrying it out, at least so far. The problem is that spreading knowledge conflicts with Maharaji being able to live in the style to which he has become accustomed in the hills of Malibu. What with $7 million yachts, $40 million aircraft and all those Rolls and Ferraris, there doesn’t seem to have been much left over to “make the experience knowledge available” like he said he planned. The result is that Maharaji has thousands fewer followers today than he did 20 years ago and hardly anyone has even heard of him. He does not even advertise his existence, or that of knowledge. During that same period, he has become filthy rich. I wonder, Mitch. What do you think an “innocent bystander” would think Maharaji’s priority is? Is it to “make the experience of knowledge available to as many people on the planet as possible,” or is it to get, and stay, rich?’ I am so disappointed in Mitch. I had great hopes for what he might have to say because he is part of a company called “Idea Champions” that claims to promote “thinking outside the box.” After reading his article, now I’m hoping he will just start thinking. Joe Whalen November 5, 2001

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 16:57:30 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Joe Subject: great all around post Joe [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:23:34 (EST) From: Joy Email: None To: Joe Subject: Brilliant, Joe--Everybody Read the Above Message:

What a brilliant post, Joe. I laughed out loud so many times! You are so excellent at pointing out the obvious and poking the pin in the balloon of bullshit. I remember Mitch Ditkoff from the old days in Denver--sorry to hear he's still an apologist for the Maharaji cult.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:59:53 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Joy Subject: I did read it and it is brilliant but.. Message:

......Joe's made so many good posts in the past few days I haven't remembered to thank him for all of them. Thanks Joe. Hope you are well and happy, Joy.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 13:55:12 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: I agree Message:

Joe is making a huge difference with his many intelligent, insightful, and dead on honest posts of late. Not to mention the acerbic wit that goes with it as well, I read every one of his contributions Thank Joe

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 13:53:36 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Here's my original article (reprint) Message:

Yes, Maharaji Really is the Leader of a Cult It’s pretty clear that people who are still devoted to Maharaji can get really upset when you say that Maharaji is leading a cult. They may even go to a lot of trouble to try to prove otherwise, as we have seen in recent months. First, Elan Vital addressed it in a big section of its website, which consists of a transparent self-serving attempt at throwing up and then destroying straw men of its own creation. More recently, Erika Andersen and Mitch Ditkoff have written articles on this subject, and currently it’s the topic of the week on their website. In his article, Mitch continues in the same vein as Elan Vital by attempting to explain why followers of Maharaji don’t meet certain aspects of a cult “definition.” [I’d like to request that if anyone can make any sense out of Mitch’s meanderings on this subject to please let me know.] Erika Andersen tries another angle. She presents a long expose about how “normal” her life is. Since neither mass marriages nor ritualistic abuse appears in her list of daily activities, Erika reassures us that she couldn’t possibly be in a cult. Why is this such a big deal to them? Probably because cults have a pretty bad reputation in this society, what with Jonestown, the Moonies, Scientology, Heaven’s Gate, and the rest. It also looks bad for propagation purposes, and it’s embarrassing. When I was a follower of Maharaji, I would never, even for a minute, have thought I was in a cult. I would have considered it an insult if someone said I was. Sure, I thought the Moonies were a cult, and the Hare Krishnas were a cult, but I and the other people following Maharaji, couldn’t possibly be a cult, could we? Of course not, I reasoned, because what Maharaji was offering was real, and I was just too smart ever to be in cult. Everything I did appeared to be of my free choice, and weren’t cults so weird that it would be obvious if you were in one? Unfortunately, no. One of the characteristics of being in a cult is that you don’t think you are because a cult is all about protecting yourself from those kinds of thoughts. Many people, after they leave cults, discover that’s exactly what they were in, and they have spawned all kinds of “ex-cult” groups and websites like Ex-Premie.Org, and large organizations like CAN and AFF, whose members proclaim that they were once members of cults. [For record, both CAN and AFF have listed Elan Vital/Maharaji as a “cult.”] The simple (and obvious) reason for this division is that once you discover you are in a cult, you are probably either already out of it, or on your way out. Hence, the divide between the current and former followers of Maharaji on the “cult” issue is quite wide and there is little common ground on the subject. I have thought a lot about groups and cults, and I’ve read and studied a lot to try to understand better how I ever became a follower of Maharaji in the first place, and why I remained one for as long as I did. The purpose of this article is to explain, based on my own research and my own experience, why I say that Maharaji is, and always has been, the leader of a cult, and to try to boil it all down to the most basic level I can. I have tried to set aside the hyperbole. Maharaji’s Followers Are Not Brainwashed Let’s just get this out of the way quickly. “Brainwashing” implies unwilling indoctrination of alien principles and beliefs and Manchurian Candidate images of overt control techniques. Maharaji does not brainwash people and followers of Maharaji are not brainwashed. So, If We Weren’t Brainwashed, Why Did We Join? Like with any other cult, people become premies/PWKS because they see something they think they want. This might be friends, community, absolutes to live by, a way to “know one’s self,” a way to “experience the energy that is God,” a simple formula for life, happiness, etc. When I was first introduced to Maharaji and his followers, I saw premies as a loving group of people who seemed to be happy, and I wanted to be in their “family,” to share what I thought they had, and I thought I lacked. I wanted the promised experience of the peace inside of me. I wanted to be a part of bringing peace to the world, which Maharaji said he was doing. I was told by premies and Maharaji that to get those things I wanted, the key was to “receive knowledge.” So, very early on, like literally within hours of my first “satsang,” I decided I wanted knowledge. At the same time, I also noticed lots of really weird, or at least illogical, stuff that seemed to go along with it, like worshipping this kid, feeling “devotion” (now “gratitude”) to this strange person, pranaming, feet-kissing, and the like. This set off “red flags” in my analytical thinking, and briefly caused me to question all I was being told. So, I now had an internal dilemma. How could I deal with the major problem for me, which was that this “Maharaji” and dedication to him, came along with the premies and the “knowledge” that I wanted so badly? Followers of Maharaji Are Not Coerced; They Are Cooperators in Their Own Programming Many people resolve this dilemma by dropping out of the process. They split. They are part of the vast majority of people who hear about Maharaji, maybe even come to some introductory event, and never follow through. They aren’t hooked. It doesn’t take. But another way to resolve it is for the individual to follow the directives of the cult and suspend normal critical judgment in this area, in order to obtain the “carrot” representing the fulfillment desired, in this case to get “knowledge.” In this way, the individual engages in cooperation with what the cult is telling them. Unfortunately for me, that’s what I did. Cult researchers will tell you that because this process involves mutual and willing cooperation, and the individual views all decisions as their own, it is a more binding form of “mind control” than other forms, and harder to undo, because of the illusion that it was all just a personal choice. Indeed, I wanted to believe it. It fulfilled a “need,” and it was “my decision.” In fact, the strongest, most enduring, and most insidious, programming in the Maharaji cult goes on before the individual even receives knowledge, at this very juncture. I can still remember the feelings and the process from my own experience. I wanted to receive knowledge. So, I did what they said I had to do; I listened to premies and Maharaji talk about it and sing songs about it. This was before video, but during the days of satsang every single night. I also watched movies about it, read articles about it, and I traveled across the country and saw Maharaji speak twice before I received knowledge. In this process “aspirants” like me, are told by Maharaji that one has to be “ready” to receive knowledge and yet there is no test or measure of what “ready” means, just that one has to have “that understanding” to “have no more doubts,” to “get rid of all pre-conceived ideas about Maharaji and knowledge,” and “be open.” So, left with no clear guidelines and completely ambiguous instructions, most people are going to take this the way I did, that it means stripping away value judgments and restraining all doubts or critical analysis of anything that was happening in connection with Maharaji or knowledge. To fail to do that was to not be “open” or it was evidence that the impediments of doubt were still there, and therefore you wouldn’t get what you wanted, to receive knowledge. So, I pushed all the sincerity buttons I had; I tried not to think critically or negatively about Maharaji. I tried to be open by not letting “my mind” criticize or analyze any of this process. What was the point, anyway? I was told that I wouldn’t really be able to judge any of it until I received knowledge and that knowledge was something that couldn’t be explained in words. At some critical point in this period, I crossed over into the world of “cult.” I did this by deciding that I wanted knowledge so much that I would ignore much of my critical/analytical faculties, and even my own “gut feelings.” This was the beginning of my practicing of cult mind control which consists mainly of learning to shut down the critical part of my thinking when it came to Maharaji and knowledge. Amazingly, that process, that repressive mechanism, continued for almost 10 years thereafter, getting ever more efficient as I practiced it. So efficient in fact, that for many years I had no conscious awareness that I was even doing it. Then began the exercises in traumatic humiliation known as “knowledge selections.” Twice I sat in the “selection” process and wasn’t selected by the Instructor. I watched, increasingly heartbroken and desperate, as those who were selected seemed ecstatic and privileged. I wanted to be like them. And I wanted to be happy like the premies, who had by this time become my friends and they were rooting for me to receive knowledge. Having been rejected, I re-doubled my efforts to “be ready” and “be open.” Any critical thought was immediately discarded. I even started singing the praises of Maharaji and knowledge. I had become not only “open,” I had become dedicated. Finally, after cutting my university classes, and taking a bus 350 miles, I was in yet another “selection” for knowledge. By this point my critical thinking became just irrelevant background noise. I was even “praying” to Maharaji, who was by now a kind of an imaginary friend to me, to please give me knowledge and let me be his devotee. By the time I was selected to receive knowledge, I couldn’t even imagine doubting anything about Maharaji or knowledge, or even looking at any of it objectively in any way approaching how I looked at anything else. But if you would have asked, I would have told you that all of this was happening by my free will, by my free choice. I was so far gone that by this point I was even willing to say that I devoted my life to Maharaji (then Guru Maharaj Ji), when the Instructor asked that I do so. Amazing. Here I was, a guy at the top of my university class, a guy who was a confirmed anti-authoritarian, a semi-Marxist, a guy who had left the Catholic Church because it was too paternalistic, devoting my life to a human being, who claimed to be another Jesus Christ, somebody I had never met and knew virtually nothing about. Yes, it could even happen to me, and it did. And if it could happen to me, it could happen to anybody. So, I received knowledge, and let’s just say that the experience did not blow my socks off. It was actually somewhat disappointing. But by that time, I no longer had much capacity to evaluate anything about Maharaji. But it felt okay because now I belonged, and the premies held a “birthday party” for us, and it was all kind of nice, and I was a new baby. Give it time, I thought. Don’t doubt, don’t judge, just be open and give it a chance, Maharaji and the premies told me. I wasn't even conscious of the fact that I had given that up my critical thinking. Like I said, it was almost 10 years before that changed. Okay, so what was I now a part of? I was now part of the Maharaji cult. It is and was a cult, that fits the definition Mitch Ditkoff uses in his article: 1. A group claiming to have “the answer” as the “only way” to peace and happiness; 2. A leader to whom “excessive dedication” occurs; and 3. The use of “mind control techniques.” I’m sure even Mitch agrees that Maharaji claimed that he had the one experience of “peace and happiness” and that he was the only person on the planet offering it. I’m sure he would also agree that “excessive devotion” has been expressed to Maharaji, including just a few months ago, when his followers, once again, lined up to kiss his feet. But what about the “mind control?” How did that manifest after I received knowledge and was a full-fledged follower of Maharaji? “Mind Control” (Better Known as: Discouragement of Doubt) in the Maharaji Cult Although “mind control” is a heavy term, there is nothing magical or strange about how it manifests in cults. It's pretty basic stuff. But what do I really mean by it when it comes to the Maharaji cult? Well, in addition to the process I already described, the following eight examples are characteristics of the cult that caused me and others to limit our thoughts – to engage in “mind control.” These are all “Mind Control Techniques” described in general terms in the literature and research on cults. They should be easily recognizable to anyone who has been a follower of Maharaji: 1. The Commandment Against Doubting. Cults almost always forbid or discourage their members from doubting anything about the Cult, and especially the Cult Leader. Maharaji was especially explicit about this. For many years, Maharaji had a “Commandment” that his followers were supposed to follow, which was to “Never Leave Room for Doubt in Your Mind.” I know he doesn’t have “commandments” anymore, but I think the principle is still there, and I read a transcript of Maharaji speaking in Argentina in which he again lambasted “doubts” as a detriment to your “experience.” I know that some PWKs say that the commandment actually meant something else, but I find the explanations absurd. It says what it says. Moreover, in my experience, doubts in the Maharaji cult were always discouraged, with or without the existence of Maharaji’s “commandment.” So, after you receive knowledge, after the repression of your thoughts that it took to get to that point, Maharaji gives you a commandment that says you aren’t supposed to doubt and that doubting interferes with the “experience.” Obviously, this makes it nearly impossible to look at knowledge or Maharaji objectively. 2. No Critical Question about the Leader or His Teaching is Legitimate. One of the true tests of whether someone is in a cult is whether he or she can criticize the Cult Leader. It’s nearly impossible, indeed is impossible, to get a one of Maharaji’s followers to do it. Of course, they will say there is nothing to criticize, because cult thinking will not allow those critiques, those “doubts” to enter, and if they do, they are immediately repressed. It causes a cult member great discomfort to think of questioning or criticizing the Cult Leader and if they have such thoughts, they would NEVER say it publicly. This is because the Maharaji cult is really a personality cult, although it retains some “Eastern spiritual cult” overtones. Obviously, if you attack the “personality” what do you have left? Some PWKs can bring themselves to criticize Elan Vital, and various leaders of that and other related organizations. I did the same thing towards the end of my involvement. But mostly, I just blamed myself for even having any doubts in the first place. Once you are out of the cult, believe me, you will have no problem criticizing Maharaji. All the critical things you have thought about him, about his “efforts” as master, or about knowledge, or about your experiences as one of his followers, all of which have been repressed, will come out like a raging river, and it feels wonderful. 3. Criticism of the Cult and Especially the Cult Leader, in any Form, is Seen as Lack of “Understanding,' or 'Confusion.' In my experience, if you express criticism of Maharaji, or any of his decisions, or Knowledge, or anything related, you get the cold shoulder by his followers and his organization and will be considered “confused” or not “synchronized.” It’s group pressure, really. And if you do so, you can usually forget about moving up in the organization, getting close to the Lotus Feet, getting a good seat at a program, being invited to “the residence,” or getting a good “participation opportunity.” If you do it too much, you might even be categorized as a “bongo.” Try sitting in your next “participation meeting” and say some negative stuff about Maharaji or what he’s doing. See how open and tolerant your fellow followers are to such statements. It’s unlikely they will encourage you to air your opinions and vigorously discuss your “negative” views. [By the way, being labeled “negative” is about the worst thing that can happen to you in the Maharaji cult and this is yet another form of mind control.] 4. Threats of Dire Calamity if They Abandon Knowledge/Maharaji. I could go into the “tons of rotten vegetables” and other things Maharaji said as threats of what would happen if people abandoned the cult, but that isn’t really necessary. Basically, this is internalized in most PWKs, such that they cannot imagine, and fear, what their lives would be like if they left Maharaji. Since Maharaji has been portrayed as being exclusive in his “perfect master” position, PWKs fear there is no place else to go. This is basically phobia indoctrination. It’s the irrational fear of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. Basically, the PWKs (and this was also true for me), cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being a follower of Maharaji, and Maharaji reinforces this in just about everything he says. Incredibly, as a premie, I described this psychological dependence on Maharaji or at least my image of Maharaji and the fear I had of rejection by him, as my “love for Maharaji,” despite the fact that I never even met the guy. Obviously, this is about as far from “love” as you can get. Also, somehow, if I said I “loved” Maharaji, it gave me some comfort that is was less likely I would ever unconsciously reject him, or that he would reject me. 5. There is Never A Legitimate Reason to Leave/Shunning Those Who Leave. It’s difficult for a follower of Maharaji to see how someone can legitimately leave “that place” and not be miserable. Ex-premies have heard it all, and I thought much the same when people left the cult when I was still a member. People who leave are labeled as “confused,” “lacking the proper understanding,” having gotten into the cult for “the wrong reasons,” wanting a “Hindu spiritual trip,” “undisciplined,” “never having practiced knowledge,” “negative,” or seduced by money, sex, rock and roll. You name it. We have heard it all. Just check out Pia Grunbaum’s and Charles Glasser’s websites, if you want to see it in print. And as for being shunned, how many of us lost our premie “friends” when we left? Now that some of us are notorious ex-premies speaking out on the Internet, that “shunning” has evolved into open hostility. It even extends to attack websites, like those of CAC, Charles Glasser and Pia Grunbaum. “Please Consider This” is just a lot more diplomatic on that score, but is essentially and attempt at the same endeavor. 6. The Cult Leader and the Cult Make Followers Feel that Any Problems Are Their Own Fault and Never Maharaji’s. This, in my opinion, is the essence of the Maharaji cult. The axiom is this: All that is good is due to Maharaji, or at least ultimately due to him, while all that is bad is due to the PWK, because of the PWK’s lack of understanding, always getting distracted, or “forgetting that place,” his or her own confusion, etc. If you want to see examples of this, just read the Maharaji cult websites, and see how the writers thereon engage in logical gymnastics to keep from ever blaming Maharaji for anything that ever happened, but are quite willing to place responsibility on themselves or Maharaji’s other followers. 7. Information is Not Freely Accessible/Information Varies at Different Levels/Leadership Decides Who “Needs to Know” What. Elan Vital and Maharaji are notoriously secretive. Very little is disclosed, even to members. And of course, we all know how secretive Maharaji has been about his personal life, with people being “x-rated” in order to be around him. And even PWKs complain of the paranoid secrecy within Elan Vital and Maharaji’s organization. This kind of information control, especially when it involves information damaging to the perceptions of Maharaji and knowledge, is very important in the Maharaji cult, and always has been. This is partly why EPO is seen as such a threat, because it exposes information the cult is trying to keep secret, and information is empowering to people, and even encourages them to look critically at things they accepted as truth in the past. 8. Lots of “Loaded Language” (AKA Thought-Terminating Clichés). These are basically terms that have normal meanings to most people, but to people in the Maharaji cult, they have loaded meanings, that evoke an instantaneous “understanding” such that no further thought about what is being said is necessary. Just to name a few: mind, heart, knowledge, breath (that’s a big one these days), that love, that peace, that experience, that gift (really lots of words with “that” in front of them to convey special meaning), understanding, thirst, negativity, doubt, participation, gratitude, and my personal favorite, “synchronization.” Maharaji can use these words peppered throughout his speech and end up really saying nothing, but sounding profound, with appropriate nods from his followers. So, by the time I walked out of the knowledge session, and became an official follower of Maharaji, I was already crippled in my ability to judge what was going on with me in relation to the cult and Maharaji. Then, Maharaji’s commandments and teachings, and the culture of the cult itself, discouraged critical analysis, and encouraged its continued repression. These are examples of how “mind control” works. After a very short time, I was on automatic. I automatically engaged in self-censorship of my thoughts, almost all the time after that. It didn’t really matter the particular rituals or living situations I encountered in the cult, the real cult was by then existing largely between my ears, reinforced by the mind control mechanisms described above, and others as well. Sure, occasionally some doubts still got through, but they were pretty easily disposed of, perhaps by some extra meditation, or perhaps by getting a “group high” from an “event.” I want to emphasize that in other areas, on subjects unrelated to Maharaji and knowledge, I remained pretty much a normal, functioning person, to the extent I could be. It wasn’t until I got out of the cult, and started to unwind that whole process, that I even realized that yes, I really was engaging in that process almost the whole time. When that happened, it was exhilarating. It was like I could finally breathe again, after I had somehow forgotten for a very long period of time. Joe Whalen

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:47:56 (EST) From: FYI Email: None To: All Subject: BBC Radio Broadcast Message:

People reading this forum who are able to tune in to BBC Radio 4 AM/FM radio in the British Isles should do so today (Tuesday 6th November) between 12.30pm - 1.00pm for 'You and Yours'. The contents under discussion may be of great interest to you.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 15:02:51 (EST) From: **** Email: None To: FYI Subject: Re: BBC Radio Broadcast Message:

What is so interesting?

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 18:34:24 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: **** Subject: Re: BBC Radio Broadcast Message:

The fact that you have no idea whats going on. That's whats so interesting ****. K?

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 19:13:46 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Barry Subject: Good one Barry }) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 07:09:44 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: FYI Subject: the program begins at 12.05pm (nt) Message:

the program begins at 12.05pm (nt)

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 08:11:36 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: the program begins at 12.05pm (nt) Message:

Eastern or pacific time?

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 12:26:07 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Vicki Subject: GMT, Vicki - long gone now. Message:

Greenwich Mean Time, The programme our mystery poster alerted us to turned out to be a phone-in about charities and fund-raising in the UK. One caller spoke about the lack of transparency in many charities' publicising of their accounts. He was of the opinion that there's no excuse for charities NOT to post details of their finances on the internet (hear, hear!) Another caller suggested 'phoning the charity of your choice and asking for a copy of their current accounts (which UK charities - and US ones too, I think, have to provide as part of their statutory obligations). No mention of Elan Vital though.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:38:54 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Alas, time ran out. Message:

Hi, Radio 4 were doing a phone-in on charities, abuse of charitable status, etc. I called in the morning, and the programme phoned me back to put me on the air. Unfortunately time ran out, before I got to say my piece. Ah well, better luck next time. Anth, video killed the radio star.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 11:58:10 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Alas, time ran out. Message:

I nearly ran over a pedestrian as I switched over from Mike Dickin (Talk Sport) to listen to a load of pleasant, banal stuff about charities on Radio 4 ''You & Yours''. It's a pity you couldn't get on. You would have made the programme.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:40:20 (EST) From: EV Email: None To: All Subject: Junk Mail Message:

Says here that EV is attempting to establish a method to keep their email propaganda machine in synch with your computer by working out a means of allowing their message to not be sorted out by spam filters, and it takes time to read through the many emails they receive. Hmmmmmmm.....why don't they just ask Maharaji how to deal with all the mail they are receiving? I'm sure he has an answer for their problem. FROM EV (Newsletter) Many subscribers write to the Elan Vital webmaster and newsletter team about problems receiving email. You may be one of them. It is difficult to deal with each problem individually and it takes time to read through the many emails we receive. However, one way you can help yourself if you are not receiving the 'Elan' newsletter, for example, is to click on the link at the end of this email and check that you are subscribed to the 'Elan Newsletter' email list. If so, the check box for the Elan Newsletter will be checked. In some cases, Internet Service Providers (ISP's) will check email from services such as the one providing the newsletter, and block the email, thinking that it is junk email or 'spam'. In this case the inability to deliver email may cause our email system to terminate your subscription after several unsuccessful attempts at delivery (this is a common practice to protect subscribers from unwanted email). Some email programs have user-modifiable lists of junk email sites. You should check your email program accordingly if you are having problems. We are currently investigating alternative email delivery applications and hope to resolve many of your concerns in the process. Thank you for your patience and understanding. EV webmaster and Newsletter team PS If your ISP is blocking this newsletter because it considers it Junk Mail...Your ISP is probably smarter than you.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 00:51:09 (EST) From: PAMs post on LG Email: None To: All Subject: has been deleted Message:

what a sirprise!!!!!

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 22:52:27 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: PAMs post on LG Subject: There is not much going on over there Message:

I thought there might be a blaze of activity over there when I checked in and decided to stir things up a little bit last week. No big inferno going on, seems like just a handful of good scouts huddling around a dwindling campfire trying to keep themselves warm. Throw a nice log on the fire to energize the place, like PAM/John's latest and they throw it out, really dullsville over there on LG, just boring

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 23:00:20 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: There is not much going on over there Message:

Maybe because there are only three or four real posters and someone has stopped posting under 14 different aliases.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 23:38:09 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Like someone over there said recently Message:

Something about Valiant effort and hoping for medal or badges of honor at the end of it all. Sounds like a scout troop to me

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 04:00:19 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: A scout troop full of.... Message:

imaginary scouts with an imaginary master.

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Date: Wed, Nov 07, 2001 at 06:15:29 (EST) From: Lord Baden Powell Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: A scout troop full of.... Message:

dib, dob, drip

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:28:58 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: PAMs post on LG Subject: The site is GONE Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 05:32:22 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: salsa Subject: Which site? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 06:10:32 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Which site? Message:

LG is gone, not just the post. Hi JHB!())

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 10:32:38 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: salsa Subject: LG is there now [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 14:42:23 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: JHB Subject: not to me Message:

so they blocked me because when I attempt to get in I get to a hotboard. Thanks JHB.

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:11:25 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: salsa Subject: Welcome to the CLUB Message:

So, little salsa got her tostada banned from Lies Great. What did you not do? ()) I'm so dizzy, my head is spinning. Congradulations

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Date: Tues, Nov 06, 2001 at 20:11:16 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: salsa Subject: Welcome to the CLUB Message:

So, little salsa got her tostada banned from Lies Great. What did you not do? ()) I'm sooooo dizzy, my head is spinning. Congradulations

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