Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Oct 31, 2001 To: Nov 07, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Timmi -:- newsletter -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:48:20 (EST)
__ Stonor -:- Every time I hear that ... -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 21:45:51 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- YOU are 2 funny -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:38:41 (EST)
__ __ Stonor -:- YOU are 2 BAD, Deb! :) (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 22:01:57 (EST)
__ __ such -:- holi breath; simple rugu halitosis -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 15:00:21 (EST)

XXX -:- From 'Please consider this' web site -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 07:46:44 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Innocent Bystanders of What? Exactly? -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 16:15:15 (EST)
__ Joe -:- What bullshit -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 14:36:01 (EST)
__ Barry -:- Oh don't worry...... -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:16:15 (EST)
__ Mr. Dooley -:- This is a Taliban like tactic by PCT -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:21:36 (EST)

suchabanana -:- r.e. da possibility... -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 02:15:47 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Si Si Senor-possibility is not probability [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 19:44:48 (EST)
__ salsa -:- Re: r.e. da possibility... -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 07:34:42 (EST)
__ __ such -:- marji has Argentina tele show -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 14:33:45 (EST)
__ __ __ salsine -:- Re: marji has Argentina tele show -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 16:50:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ such -:- oops, how saucy of me! -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 19:30:03 (EST)
__ such -:- habla espanol??? -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 02:43:21 (EST)

Jim -:- More Meetings with Remarkable Men -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:24:27 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- The trouble with Mitch -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 14:54:44 (EST)
__ such -:- Waiting for Godot: gurupie puppydumb -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 01:26:47 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Waiting for Godot: gurupie puppydumb -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 16:03:39 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- That's perfect, Such -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:59:51 (EST)
__ __ __ bill-good find Jimi -:- It was always our fault of course. [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 11:56:42 (EST)
__ Barry -:- Almost out all the way Eh? -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:42:46 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Oh no, not another pirate laugh! -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 00:04:26 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- Pilates of da Carob Be-in -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 01:47:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Whoa the deconstruckshun of Ole Mitch -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 21:22:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I posted this over on LG as well -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 21:51:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- I luv da smell of burnt ghee in da morning! hehe -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 23:24:24 (EST)

Barry -:- Hey folks! It's toon time again! -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:07:13 (EST)
__ bill-I couldnt open that one -:- but I loved all your previous work [nt] -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 16:22:42 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: but I loved all your previous work -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 18:37:25 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- OK you win barry, I must have techno b.o -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 01:43:54 (EST)
__ Barry -:- Is everybody having problems with this one?(nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:43:55 (EST)
__ Barry -:- I can see it! Anybody else? -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:34:08 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Broken link each time -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 12:52:04 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Have you seen PICS yet -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 19:51:19 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Read JHB's explanation -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:41:56 (EST)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- All of the work fine -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 01:47:22 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Cartoons ease the message -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 02:06:32 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- It's working now Barry -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:28:32 (EST)

Joe -:- Yes, Maharaji Really Is A Cult Leader -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 19:49:51 (EST)
__ And the third one?? -:- Re: Yes, Maharaji Really Is A Cult Leader -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 22:04:57 (EST)
__ PatD -:- Tremendous Joe , and how apt -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 20:30:43 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Yet another tour de force -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 23:36:36 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Brilliant - needs a permanent place -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:27:31 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Excellent, Joe and Comments... -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:33:37 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Cynthia -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 17:56:37 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Thanks, Joe -:- Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 14:32:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Or at least don't spend too long on them -:- Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 16:50:09 (EST)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Joe, you need to write your 'Journey'! [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 18:26:10 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Better than even the average excellent post, Joe -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:32:46 (EST)
__ Mercedes -:- Re: Yes, Maharaji Really Is A Cult Leader -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:12:51 (EST)
__ Thanks Joe -:- Re: Yes, Maharaji Really Is A Cult Leader -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:14:29 (EST)
__ salsa -:- Excellent post! NT -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 07:38:07 (EST)
__ magiclara -:- Thank you so much -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 05:21:34 (EST)
__ JHB -:- *** Best of Forum *** -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:53:25 (EST)
__ Susan -:- That may be the best post I have ever read. -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:51:40 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Definately best of forum !! -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 03:11:45 (EST)
__ Barbara -:- This Deserves A Prominent Place On EPO -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 20:57:50 (EST)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Don't worry, best of forum is being updated -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:51:26 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- J-M, And it's very much appreciated... -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 15:47:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Grace and Help -:- Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 04:27:23 (EST)
__ Jim S. -:- Now this one needs to be preserved... -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 20:20:16 (EST)
__ __ Disculta -:- The cult between my ears -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:13:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, everyone.... -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 18:02:45 (EST)

Francesca -:- Another abusive guru -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 17:41:29 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Is there another kind? [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:42:49 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- This is so believable... -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:30:55 (EST)
__ __ Francesca ~) -:- Yes, it's interesting to see the miles walked -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 20:08:03 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Why was I so naive? -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 16:07:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Here's another one for the collection -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 18:26:12 (EST)

gerry -:- Of EV Monitors And CACweasels... -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 14:43:22 (EST)
__ Selene -:- thanks much Gerry nt -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 20:50:31 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Good post Gerry [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 22:24:27 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- 8) No verifiable history -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:17:39 (EST)
__ __ SC -:- errr....Not exactly Nige -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:43:52 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- So is the multi-alias spam era over now??? -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 17:15:31 (EST)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- SC is someone else! -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:37:57 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- that's indeed Our Gail -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 19:59:42 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: that's indeed Our Gail -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 12:18:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Gail -:- Yep! It's your Gail! -:- Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 20:34:58 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Volunteer EV Monitors And CACweasels -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 17:11:22 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: *** -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:40:56 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's TOOOOOO funny! -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 19:29:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: That's TOOOOOO funny! -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 05:04:31 (EST)
__ Zelda -:- Re: Of EV Monitors And CACweasels... -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 16:57:15 (EST)
__ CW -:- Of Paranoia andConspiracy Theories! -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 16:45:54 (EST)
__ __ SC -:- Very funny Cat...I don't think -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:25:23 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Ah, the Cat's back. -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 16:51:00 (EST)
__ __ __ CW -:- Cat's back. Baxter Funt -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 05:54:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Cat, you're full of shit. -:- Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 05:11:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Took you long enough -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:41:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Took you long enough -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:47:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- I'll take that as a NO, then. -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 06:08:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Gerry...?? -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 18:10:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- JohnT is not in a cult -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 14:06:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- You are a WEIRDO in a cult -:- Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 20:45:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: JohnT is not in a cult -:- Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 04:13:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Derek is such a Harpy! -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 06:28:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Straight from the heart, Cat? -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:54:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Straight from the heart, Cat? -:- Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 04:27:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Frustration? -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 23:07:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Muggles are SO tiresome! -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 06:40:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Hey Johnny -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 09:14:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Get real, David -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 11:10:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Muggles are SO tiresome! -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 07:58:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Get real, Nowhere mandy -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 11:14:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Straight from the bile-duct rather [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:59:16 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Gerry ****BEST OF FORUM***** -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:45:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- BEST OF FORUM Information -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:58:15 (EST)

Vicki -:- Offensive Jokes and Remarks -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 14:26:06 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- MAHARAJI is a RACIST PIG -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 19:28:30 (EST)
__ __ SC -:- DEBORAH IS A SWEETIE PIE -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 01:17:51 (EST)
__ __ __ Deobrah -:- Re: DEBORAH IS A SWEETIE PIE -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 02:35:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Always refer to yourself in the plural? -:- Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 03:59:10 (EST)
__ Chuck S. -:- Offensive remarks: M once said... -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:57:21 (EST)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Chuck, I think he said that more than once -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 12:40:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Cult respectability, and hidden agendas -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 15:53:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Just found the Zen roots of this one -:- Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 13:47:54 (EST)
__ Inside Edition -:- 20th Century Yogis -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:24:34 (EST)

Barry -:- Hey Kids! It's toon time again! -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 13:51:11 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Just saw it -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 00:22:58 (EST)

JHB -:- Pam's Future Posts -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 13:45:39 (EST)
__ JHB -:- One further thing -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:08:32 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Cool :D [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:05:37 (EST)
__ Francesca :C) -:- Yay, John!! Thanks. [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 14:45:05 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Yay, John and Pam!! Thanks. [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 15:12:12 (EST)

Francesca -:- Swami Jyoti -- report of abuse -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 12:50:51 (EST)
__ cq -:- a few snippets from the report: -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:50:49 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- A must read for all exes -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:52:28 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Brilliant - a Must Read -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 13:52:20 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Brilliant - Thanks, Fran... -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 15:06:45 (EST)

Live -:- From The Intercontinental Hotel.... -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 06:59:40 (EST)
__ yeah -:- like paying to see the same movie -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 08:59:28 (EST)

Barry -:- Well,one more for the road! -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 00:05:27 (EST)
__ Joe -:- That's Fantastic -:- Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 01:04:09 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Hardy haar haar, -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:07:09 (EST)
__ Jerry -:- How true -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:42:48 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- You're right -- should be a motto -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:58:35 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Don't stop now -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 00:15:18 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Keep 'em coming, Bar -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 00:12:47 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Keep 'em coming, Bar -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:10:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Hey Deb-OT -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:41:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hey Deb-OT -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 22:55:01 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, I'll put them up at the House -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 15:36:58 (EST)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Rodger I can't! -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 19:10:52 (EST)

Jim -:- Poor, poor Mitch -:- Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 22:04:21 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- Mitch is right about one thing. -:- Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 10:31:58 (EST)


Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:48:20 (EST)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: newsletter
Message:
''Breath is simple''

Good grief. What a moron. No kidding, idiot. Even babies, obviously another fetish--that of babies and being like a baby--breathe. Babies also poop their pants and spit their dinner all over themselves. Shall we emulate those traits, too? Grow up rawat and say something sensible, just once.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 21:45:51 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Every time I hear that ...
Message:
I remember my chronic struggle to breathe as an asthmatic during the first half of my life - simple? I wish! I still say that no one can appreciate the breath like an asthmatic, or someone who has cystic-fibrosis, as many of the children I shared hospital rooms with suffered from.

Stop reading your husband's mail, Timmi! You know it will only make you sick! ;)

All the best, Timmi,

Love,

Anna

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:38:41 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: YOU are 2 funny
Message:
Babies also poop their pants and spit their dinner all
over themselves. Shall we emulate those traits, too?

Do you do Maha's laundry? No! Well then, how do you KNOW?

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 22:01:57 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: YOU are 2 BAD, Deb! :) (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 15:00:21 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@friedatlast.org/y
To: Deborah
Subject: holi breath; simple rugu halitosis
Message:
breath so simple, marji simple-ton of lardus:

Breath is a terrible thing to lose, mind a terrible thing to have.
But, money is practically my middle name; I Singh the praises of materialist addiction. It isn't easy to be rich. It's not what you think.

Ok, now, students, I have shown you this breath - which I personally own, btw. See, it's so simple. I have shown you this breath, and therefore anything you experience from breathing is by my grace. Dog wants to run and be free, but Master he pulls [pulls] on dog's chain. So, if you wanna stay alive, you must show that gratitude and appreciation to the Master. While we do accept Visa, I prefer cash. Money talks, Master Never walks; the Mercedes owner -- the practical man. Blessings to all the phlegmies.
-- mahacucaraji

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 07:46:44 (EST)
From: XXX
Email: None
To: All
Subject: From 'Please consider this' web site
Message:
Please consider this - thanks and update

We'd like to thank everyone for their kind words on our new website www.PleaseConsiderThis.com. . We appreciate all the support, and hope that the site will prove both useful and enjoyable.

Our intended audience for the site is 'innocent bystanders' - people who are interested in Maharaji and Knowledge and may have encountered various negative allegations on 'anti-Maharaji' websites or elsewhere. We're offering these people a positive, thoughtful, honest (and funny, if possible) alternative.

We've tried hard to make this a quality site with quality writing, drawing both on our hearts and our minds. Article submissions are welcome, but you should familiarize yourself with the site and its approach before submitting.

If you like what you read on our site, you may be interested in signing up for our mailing list so you can be notified when new articles are posted.

Warmly,
David Andersen
Erika Andersen
Mitch Ditkoff
Bob Johnson

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 16:15:15 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: XXX
Subject: Innocent Bystanders of What? Exactly?
Message:
What are 'innocent bystanders?' People who might read that Maharaji is a fraud and a conman interested only in himself and his inner circle and collection of wealth?

Our intended audience for the site is 'innocent bystanders' - people who are interested in Maharaji and Knowledge and may have encountered various negative allegations on 'anti-Maharaji' websites or elsewhere. We're offering these people a positive, thoughtful, honest (and funny, if possible) alternative.

What's an alternative to the exposition of a cult? More cult propaganda? Well, yes, I guess this is the goal. More bullshit, more rounding off the 'edges' of the terrible, horrible, hateful, ex-premies. Of course, it makes perfect sense.

Protect the innocent prey of the recrutiment (otherwise known as propagation folks at EV) from any negative comments about Maharaji and his personality cult.

Well, all I can say to PCT is, Thanks!

Cynthia J. Gracie, once dooped, now alert!

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 14:36:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: XXX
Subject: What bullshit
Message:
Our intended audience for the site is 'innocent bystanders' - people who are interested in Maharaji and Knowledge and may have encountered various negative allegations on 'anti-Maharaji' websites or elsewhere. We're offering these people a positive, thoughtful, honest (and funny, if possible) alternative.

If the true intent of that website was to inform 'innocent bystanders,' instead of the real, unstated, purposes, which are propaganda and damage control, we would be seeing on that website viewpoints that that counter what is being said there. This is especially true because they go through the facade of actually asking people to 'speak up' by making submissions, pretending that they might actually post something that disagrees with the party line.

Any website that does not permit opposing views to be included, is transparently a propaganda site, which is transparently obvious even to 'innocent bystanders,' whoever they are. Also, it's almost impossible to say you are 'honest' if you regularly censor opposing views. This is why Pravda didn't have much credibility.

That's what is so great about the ex-premie sites, they permit anyone to comment.

Also, my Father used to say that if someone has to try to prove that they aren't anti-semitic, they almost surely are anti-semitic. Likewise, it's transparently obvious to anyone, that if you have to try to prove that you aren't in a cult, you almost certainly are in one.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:16:15 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: XXX
Subject: Oh don't worry......
Message:
Your hilarious,and very funny already!
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:21:36 (EST)
From: Mr. Dooley
Email: None
To: XXX
Subject: This is a Taliban like tactic by PCT
Message:
'Our intended audience for the site is 'innocent bystanders' - people who are interested in Maharaji and Knowledge....'

Just like the mullahs and muftis trying to focus attention away from the serious charges

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 02:15:47 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: r.e. da possibility...
Message:
remember dat weekly televised sit-com, da prempal infallibullity - er, da 'possibility'?

well, pubwic tv bwoadcasting is subsidized in Argentina [land of silver] by taxes. But do dey Really know dat same rugu rawrat dat we know and lub? hahaha

mebbe somebody otter let da Buenos Aires daily newspapers know 'bout epo [both Spanish and English links], fer starters, plus a lil personal feedback.

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/
[ http://www.buenosairesherald.com/ ]

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 19:44:48 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Si Si Senor-possibility is not probability [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 07:34:42 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: r.e. da possibility...
Message:
let the news know about what? I don't get your post totally.

hi Such

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 14:33:45 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@peacebomb.com/mie
To: salsa
Subject: marji has Argentina tele show
Message:
Salam:

marji and EV have been getting weekly freebie media exposure from Argentina's main public television channel. They are airing a Visions production series called 'The Possibility'.

Obviously, the Argentinian media and govt. don't yet really know much about dat marji, dat massa, dat moola, etc.

gotta nip this pesky weed in da bud -- udderwise, this pilot television series may become the test market for infectious gurujism infomercials in other countries.

peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 16:50:21 (EST)
From: salsine
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: marji has Argentina tele show
Message:
I'm silvia, not salam. hahahaha salsa=silvia=sb

I know people in the media there. Where did you get the information? I may be able to do something there.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 19:30:03 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: salsine
Subject: oops, how saucy of me!
Message:
hi Silvia!

info came from dat premie SC's post at LG about things going fine in S. America.

we have a thread and discussion about it here somewhere, too. [i think it was on 10/28-29]

the major news media in Argentina should be informed about the Spanish ex-premie.org site, + an introductory letter in Spanish explaining things. if you have contacts there, that would be great.

peace + lentils,

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 02:43:21 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: habla espanol???
Message:
http://www.worldwidenews.com/argent.htm

can you say 'letter to da editor' in Spanish? if so, then you may fire when ready, Gridley! har har har

my own Spanish is pwetty elementary, watson, i.e.

oye como va - burrito
bueno taco sauce - tostada...

[apologies to da late Tito Puente]

oy yoi yoi yoi...
[ http://www.worldwidenews.com/argent.htm ]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:24:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: More Meetings with Remarkable Men
Message:
Here's another treatment for a Monty Python sketch from PCT. More booze, more servility, more ridiculous rationalizing:

Waiting for Maharaji

Since Maharaji first came to the West in 1971, tens of thousands of people have received Knowledge and become his students. Conversely, a large number of these same people along the way have decided to disassociate from him. That, of course, is their right. Their reasons have been many, everything from objecting to his lifestyle to an unsupportive spouse to the personality of some of Maharaji's representatives. I understand this phenomenon. It has happened to a number of my friends. Indeed, on a few occasions, it almost happened to me. At its core, I believe, the rejection of Maharaji by some of his students has a lot to do with what the more conventional religions would term 'making God in our own image.' We get an idea in our heads and then we compare reality to it. Psychologists refer to this as 'projection.' The result? Disappointment, disillusionment, and ultimately, anger.

Allow me to be more specific.

The year was 1983 and I was living in Los Angeles. Although I had enjoyed some wonderfully casual moments with Maharaji throughout the years, most of my contact with him had been at big programs, him on stage, me straining to see from the mezzanine, wondering how to get a better seat. Like most of his students I wanted 'special' time with him, away from the crowds.

And so when a friend asked me to be a waiter at a party Maharaji was throwing for his neighbors I jumped at the chance. I rented the outfit. I shined my shoes. I showed up early. Nobody but my mother could have guessed I wasn't a waiter by profession.

And then, with a signal from the caterer, my adventure began silver tray of hors d'oeuvres in my hand spreading out with the rest of the waiters among the guests, each according to our designated areas.

The first thing I saw was Maharaji. Technically speaking, he wasn't in my zone, but since none of the other waiters were approaching him, I decided to fill the void. This was my chance, I reasoned especially since I hadn't talked to him for more than three years.

'Hors d'oeuvre?' I asked, extending my tray of goodies in his direction.

Maharaji pulled his head back, looked away, and extended his hand in a slow, downward motion as if to say, 'Keep that thing away from me!'

I smiled and continued on my way, wondering if his refusal had any kind of cosmic significance. Was it me or the pizza puffs? Was he seeing some deep, ancient flaw in me? Was I hopelessly uncool? Fortunately, the day was too beautiful to obsess on my thoughts for long and so I kept moving until I located my area in the field behind his house.

From where I was now positioned, there were absolutely no sight lines to the party, no chance to see, I thought, Maharaji. The only things interesting to look at were the ocean and the sky.

And so it was. Every ten minutes or so a few guests would make their way back to my area, surprised to see a waiter standing in a field so far from the party.

It took about ten guests to empty my tray. After that I would head back to the waiters' shed for refills. This must have happened at least 20 times during the day and each time it did, Maharaji would somehow enter my field of vision standing, talking, eating, walking, and doing all the things a person normally does at a party. And though I could never predict what he was going to be doing when I saw him, I could predict the feeling I would have. 'Jazzed' is how I would refer to it. Pumped. Buzzed. Blissed. I was a curious hybrid of boy seeing Santa and a Grateful Dead groupie with a lifetime backstage pass. 'It's him,' I would think to myself again and again. 'Him!'

The Scene and the Unseen

This little scene played itself out several times during the day. But then something unexpected happened.

About the 20th time I saw him, I felt nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch. An unwelcome sense of normalcy began to take me over. Seeing him was suddenly no big deal. I wasn't awed, I wasn't amazed. Neither was I captivated, astounded, excited, glad, grateful, inspired, delighted, or energized. I wasn't anything.

My concept of Maharaji was being deconstructed before my eyes. My 'mental model' wasn't working. Something I had counted on for years that seeing him would always be 'uplifting' was no longer operational. Was it him? Was it me? Was it both of us? Neither? Something else?

Conclusions 'R Us

One conclusion I could have easily drawn was that Maharaji was nothing special a Wizard of Oz made great only by my neurotic projections. Yes, if I wanted proof that he was all hype now I had it. But having received Knowledge from him 12 years earlier and experienced the many benefits of it in my life, I could not bail out at such a conclusion. Something else was clearly going on.

Looking back, my 'buzzless' series of waitering moments at Maharaji's party felt like the unceremonial end of my extended honeymoon with him that formerly delightful time of spiritual romance in which I had been protected from (or blinded to) the moments in which one's 'significant other' does not appear very extraordinary. In marriages, this either marks the beginning or the end of the painful acceptance of the apparent mundane the time when the husband no long seems heroic and the wife is no longer seen as 'goddess.'

It was confronting to admit it, but the part of my relationship to Maharaji that I had fabricated was becoming undone. Without knowing it, I had become a fan and a groupie in addition to being a student. Like my previous strategy in my personal life of creating short-term love affairs to keep me feeling studly, I had been orchestrating my relationship with Maharaji to provide well-timed payoffs. Did it work? Yes it did. But it went only so far.

I was not alone. Lots of Maharaji's students have set him up in this way. Ruled by the very human need to define, we turned him into many things: a superstar, a hero, an Avatar, an anthropomorphized version of our own private God projecting all kinds of images on him, not unlike small children do with their parents or teachers.

Inevitably, this leads to disappointment. Which leads to doubt. Which leads to anger. And it is this anger born from the gap between who he is and who we imagine him to be that is often the reason why some students of Maharaji eventually reject him. 'He is not who I thought he was,' they claim. And of course it is true, because, in many ways, it is impossible to know Maharaji (or anyone else for that matter) through the medium of thought.

Watching Our Own Movies

More relationships are ruined, I believe, by expectations than by anything else. Husbands do it to their wives. Wives do it to their husbands. Parents do it to their kids. The Master/Student relationship is no exception. Somehow we get it into our heads that a Master has to be a certain way. Casting directors in our own B movie, we patch together our favorite stereotypes and create a picture of how the Master should be, what he should do, what he should say and then proceed to compare everything to this picture.

Of course, we're going to be disappointed. How could it be any other way? The alternative? Live and let live. Be who you are and let Maharaji be who he is. Give up the addiction to having everyone and everything fit the Procrustean bed of your spiritualized imagination. If you're a student of Maharaji's, allow your experience of him to arise from the practice of Knowledge rather than your needy projections. If you are interested in receiving Knowledge, trust your instincts and take the next step. And if you're a disgruntled ex-student of Maharaji's, stop for a moment and ask yourself how your new mission to save the world from him compares to your previous commitment years ago (using Maharaji as your perfect poster boy) to save the world from itself.

Mitch Ditkoff
August 14, 2001

All I can say is that poor Mitch is in hell. I remember all that 'and then I realized' doubt-processing we used to indulge in. This is it in spades. Giving satsang was a bit of a rush for us back in the day because we each got to pretend we knew something, something worth blabbing on and on about and something worth others' time just shutting up and listening. That was a BIG mistake. It allowed us to argue with ourselves most unfairly, setting up simple little straw men to knock down instead of the real, robust arguments they stood in for.

For example, when poor Mitch says:

One conclusion I could have easily drawn was that Maharaji was nothing special a Wizard of Oz made great only by my neurotic projections. Yes, if I wanted proof that he was all hype now I had it. But having received Knowledge from him 12 years earlier and experienced the many benefits of it in my life, I could not bail out at such a conclusion. Something else was clearly going on.

he was perilously close to the admitting the truth. Had he been in dialogue instead of soliloquy mode he might have done just that. Instead, he merely touches on the problems as if doing so neutralizes them, as if acknowledging them, however skittishly, he's free to dismiss them as resolved when, in truth, they're simply fatal for the belief system he's so stuck in.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 14:54:44 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The trouble with Mitch
Message:
It was confronting to admit it, but the part of my relationship to Maharaji that I had fabricated was becoming undone. Without knowing it, I had become a fan and a groupie in addition to being a student.
Mitch hit a turning point here when he briefly confronted the unraveling of his concepts. I wonder if at one point in time all PAM's come to a similar moment of truth, where when a glimmer of reality sneaks in, but rather than acknowledge the truth of that moment and face the disapointment and doubt and ultimately anger as Mitch describe it they simply blow it off.

Mitch goes on to rationalize that it is simply impossible to 'know maharaji through the medium of thought' He massages this concept in even further by allowing than you cannot know anyone else by thought either. Its seems that it is easier to swallow this load if it gets lumped together with the general public.

Now this gets real tricky because you are supposed to Feeeeel and not think, and not even 'think' about what you feeeeel, this particular phenomenia can only be induced under the influence of a cult so that you can actually 'think' about the cult and nothing else while pretending not to think. Very tricky little mind fuck indeed.

But you must never admit that you are thinking, no thinking allowed, no sir. If you get the urge to think, just concentare on this pleasant buzz between your ears, poke yourself in the eyes and stare at the pretty colors, swallow some sinus drippings, and listen to the sound of the air rushing in and out of your lungs. But at all costs for God sakes DON'T THINK.

If you do you will never taste snot as sweet as before, the lights will be turned out forever, that pleasant buzz will turn into a maddening ring inside you head, your breath will stink like rotting vegetables and all your friends will abandon you.

Wow, the very thought of it all, oops, sorry, there I go again,

The cult seems to defy Mitch's notion of impossible to know by medium of thought only process, in fact here it is possible to know all in that realm simply through synchronized thought, only you must pretend that you are not really thinking.

So if Mitch is right here, then no matter what methods one employs to extract a relationship from anyone anywhere unless one goes into it as mindless zombie you just aren't going to understand or know the value of that relationship.

This sounds like a recipe for a good doormat to me.

Mitch fits that profile well in my estimation, he was given a moment of clarity, and he threw it away. He decided that he would keep the big secret and carry forward the big lie and continue to pretend that all is well in the land of the living lord.

Mitch just doesn't have the courage to deal with the disapointment, the doubt, even the anger possibly of seeing 'his expectations' of M ruined by honest self examination.

if you're a disgruntled ex-student of Maharaji's, stop for a moment and ask yourself how your new mission to save the world from him compares to your previous commitment years ago (using Maharaji as your perfect poster boy) to save the world from itself.

For your information Mitch, I am not trying to save the world from him, I am simply saving myself from him, and I did not realize that my previous commitment before was to save the world from itself by bringing victims to maharaji to be prevailed upon and turned into spineless, mindless morons like yourself.

Brian of badbreath

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 01:26:47 (EST)
From: such
Email: mitch@spikeddogcollars.org/y
To: Jim
Subject: Waiting for Godot: gurupie puppydumb
Message:
Waiting for Tony Robbins:

Since Tony Robbins first came to the television, tens of thousands of people have received his tapes and become his slave-dogs. Conversely, a large number of these same people along the way have decided to disassociate from him. That, of course, is their right. Their reasons have been many, everything from objecting to his lifestyle to an unsupportive spouse to the personality of some of Tony Robbins's representatives. I understand this phenomenon. It has happened to a number of my friends. Indeed, on a few occasions, it almost happened to me. At its core, I believe, the rejection of Tony Robbins by some of his slave-dogs has a lot to do with what the more conventional religions would term 'making Dog-ladus in our own image.' We get an idea in our heads and then we compare reality to it. Psychologists refer to this as 'projection.' The result? Disappointment, disillusionment, and ultimately, anger.

Allow me to be more specific.

The year was 1983 and I was living in Los Angeles. Although I had enjoyed some wonderfully casual moments with Tony Robbins throughout the years, most of my contact with him had been at big programs, him on stage, me straining to see from the mezzanine, wondering how to get a better seat. Like most of his slave-dogs I wanted 'special' time with him, away from the crowds.

And so when a friend asked me to be a waiter at a party Tony Robbins was throwing for his neighbors I jumped at the chance. I rented the outfit. I shined my shoes. I showed up early. Nobody but my mother could have guessed I wasn't a waiter by profession.

And then, with a signal from the caterer, my adventure began silver tray of hors d'oeuvres in my hand spreading out with the rest of the waiters among the guests, each according to our designated areas.

The first thing I saw was Tony Robbins. Technically speaking, he wasn't in my zone, but since none of the other waiters were approaching him, I decided to fill the void. This was my chance, I reasoned especially since I hadn't talked to him for more than three years.

'Hors d'oeuvre?' I asked, extending my tray of goodies in his direction.

Tony Robbins pulled his head back, looked away, and extended his hand in a slow, downward motion as if to say, 'Keep that thing away from me!'

I smiled and continued on my way, wondering if his refusal had any kind of cosmic significance. Was it me or the pizza puffs? Was he seeing some deep, ancient flaw in me? Was I hopelessly uncool? Fortunately, the day was too beautiful to obsess on my thoughts for long and so I kept moving until I located my area in the field behind his house.

From where I was now positioned, there were absolutely no sight lines to the party, no chance to see, I thought, Tony Robbins. The only things interesting to look at were the ocean and the sky.

And so it was. Every ten minutes or so a few guests would make their way back to my area, surprised to see a waiter standing in a field so far from the party.

It took about ten guests to empty my tray. After that I would head back to the waiters' shed for refills. This must have happened at least 20 times during the day and each time it did, Tony Robbins would somehow enter my field of vision standing, talking, eating, walking, and doing all the things a person normally does at a party. And though I could never predict what he was going to be doing when I saw him, I could predict the feeling I would have. 'Jismed' is how I would refer to it. Pumped. Buzzed. Blissed. I was a curious hybrid of boy seeing Santa and a Grateful Dead groupie with a lifetime backstage pass. 'It's him,' I would think to myself again and again. 'Him!'

The Scene and the Unseen

This little scene played itself out several times during the day. But then something unexpected happened.

About the 20th time I saw him, I felt nothing. Zero. Nada. Zilch. An unwelcome sense of normalcy began to take me over. Seeing him was suddenly no big deal. I wasn't awed, I wasn't amazed. Neither was I captivated, astounded, excited, glad, grateful, inspired, delighted, or energized. I wasn't anything.

My concept of Tony Robbins was being deconstructed before my eyes. My 'mental model' wasn't working. Something I had counted on for years that seeing him would always be 'uplifting' was no longer operational. Was it him? Was it me? Was it both of us? Neither? Something else?

Conclusions 'R Us

One conclusion I could have easily drawn was that Tony Robbins was nothing special a Wizard of Oz made great only by my neurotic projections. Yes, if I wanted proof that he was all hype now I had it. But having received gurujism from him 12 years earlier and experienced the many benefits of that lobotomy in my life, I could not bail out at such a conclusion. Something else was clearly going on.

Looking back, my 'buzzless' series of waitering moments at Tony Robbins's party felt like the unceremonial end of my extended honeymoon with him that formerly delightful time of spiritual romance in which I had been protected from (or blinded to) the moments in which one's 'significant other' does not appear very extraordinary. In marriages, this either marks the beginning or the end of the painful acceptance of the apparent mundane the time when the husband no long seems heroic and the wife is no longer seen as 'goddess.'

It was confronting to admit it, but the part of my relationship to Tony Robbins that I had fabricated was becoming undone. Without knowing it, I had become a fan and a groupie in addition to being a sucker. Like my previous strategy in my personal life of creating short-term love affairs to keep me feeling studly, I had been orchestrating my relationship with Tony Robbins to provide well-timed payoffs. Did it work? Yes it did. But it went only so far.

I was not alone. Lots of Tony Robbins's slave-dogs have set him up in this way. Ruled by the very human need to define, we turned him into many things: a superstar, a hero, an Avatar, an anthropomorphized version of our own private Dog-lardu projecting all kinds of images on him, not unlike small children do with their parents or teachers.

Inevitably, this leads to disappointment. Which leads to doubt. Which leads to anger. And it is this anger born from the gap between who he is and who we imagine him to be that is often the reason why some slave-dogs of Tony Robbins eventually reject him. 'He is not who I thought he was,' they claim. And of course it is true, because, in many ways, it is impossible to know Tony Robbins (or anyone else for that matter) through the medium of thought.

Watching Our Own Movies

More relationships are ruined, I believe, by expectations than by anything else. Husbands do it to their wives. Wives do it to their husbands. Parents do it to their kids. The massa baiter/slave dog relationship is no exception. Somehow we get it into our heads that a massa baiter has to be a certain way. Casting directors in our own B movie, we patch together our favorite stereotypes and create a picture of how the massa baiter should be, what he should do, what he should say and then proceed to compare everything to this picture.

Of course, we're going to be disappointed. How could it be any other way? The alternative? Live and let live. Be who you are and let Tony Robbins be who he is. Give up the addiction to having everyone and everything fit the Procrustean bed of your spiritualized imagination. If you're a sucker of Tony Robbins's, allow your experience of him to arise from the practice of gurujism rather than your needy projections. If you are interested in receiving the lobotomy of gurujism, trust your instincts and take the next step. And if you're a disgruntled ex-sucker of Tony Robbins's, stop for a moment and ask yourself how your new mission to save the world from him compares to your previous commitment years ago (using Tony Robbins as your perfect poster boy) to save the world from itself.

Yours on a lobotomized gurupie puppy leash,

Mitch Ditzkopf

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 16:03:39 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: Waiting for Godot: gurupie puppydumb
Message:
Thanks Such, great parody! Loved it, am laughing still....
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:59:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: such
Subject: That's perfect, Such
Message:
I'm a little slow this morning, I guess, because when I started reading that, I fell for it. But hwat was I thinking? Such, you might be a lot of things but a Tony Robbins kind of guy? Hm......
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Date: Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 11:56:42 (EST)
From: bill-good find Jimi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It was always our fault of course. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:42:46 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Almost out all the way Eh?
Message:
Give him time. He'll be almost as bitter as you Jim. HArrrr!
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 00:04:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Oh no, not another pirate laugh!
Message:
Harrrrrr yourself!
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 01:47:18 (EST)
From: such
Email: longdongsilver@supremecourt.us.gov.dubya
To: Jim
Subject: Pilates of da Carob Be-in
Message:
ok, you guys, try this mantra in lieu of dat phlegmbuoyant technique #4:

1) open mouth,
2)grasp tongue firmly with thumb and forefinger

then, [without letting go of yer grip]
3) say dis lil mantra, 'I was born in a pirate ship.' [repeat mantra until you have received Captain Rawrat's hidden treasure] har har har

-- and a bottle of rum,

P.S. hey, I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy...

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 21:22:11 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Whoa the deconstruckshun of Ole Mitch
Message:
Man, you boys did a job this one; he has to hang his head in shame fer sure. Brian damn straight analyis and sucha I about wet myse'f laffin and Jim right on as usual.
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 21:51:50 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I posted this over on LG as well
Message:
nothing like pouring gasoline on a roaring fire for a little blast, huh Gerry
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 23:24:24 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I luv da smell of burnt ghee in da morning! hehe
Message:
Hey, how do you get rid of a Rawrat pwoblem?

wid a lil DE-CON-struction! hehehe

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:07:13 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hey folks! It's toon time again!
Message:
Sat sang sat sang sat sang....!
[ http://acousticoutlaw.tripod.com/satsang.html ]
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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 16:22:42 (EST)
From: bill-I couldnt open that one
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: but I loved all your previous work [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 18:37:25 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill-I couldnt open that one
Subject: Re: but I loved all your previous work
Message:
Hi Bill,

Can you Barry has never been within miles of MAHA? The cartoons are hilarious. I'm going to print them out in colour and put them into a scrap book.

Maybe we can get permission from Barry to put them in a book, should we write one.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 01:43:54 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: OK you win barry, I must have techno b.o
Message:
or my names kim,
the laughs on me, still absolutely nothing,

oare there any macs out there using IE who are getting these?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:43:55 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Is everybody having problems with this one?(nt)
Message:
aaaa
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:34:08 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: I can see it! Anybody else?
Message:
Sorry Deb. I just opened it free of any other programs running at the same time, and it came up fine? Hmmmmmmm got your cookies turned on?
Hehe!
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 12:52:04 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Broken link each time
Message:
Barry,

Appears you are having great fun and want to share it but . . .

Each of your recent emails contain broken links (i.e. not viewable as if the file did not exist). I wonder if the problem is Mac specific. Any other Mac users able to view Barry's masterpieces?

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 19:51:19 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Have you seen PICS yet
Message:
Richard, if you haven't seen them yet, you may want to go to someone else's computer. Also Roger Drek will put them on his site. That will help you MACers in the future. Hopefully, there will be more a-comin'

Take care,

Deb

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:41:56 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Read JHB's explanation
Message:
Hi Richard,

You may need to get to a PC? I know JHB said that it required I.E. not Netscape 4.7....

psssss They are definitely worth the effort ;)

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 01:47:22 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: All of the work fine
Message:
For one of them, I had to hit the refresh key, but for everything else, I just had to wait until the graphics loaded. Hee hee. Some good chuckles.

--f

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 02:06:32 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Cartoons ease the message
Message:
The humour takes the edge off a painful message, i.e. political cartoons.

That's why newspapers employ them. People can laugh at something visually whimsical whereas the words may be too confronting.

Barry's artwork may be the cult-buster artillery we've been needing.

Leave them laughing.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:28:32 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: It's working now Barry
Message:
I'm in IE and got a broken link. Can you check it please.

I love your toons dude. THey are an instant hit!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 19:49:51 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Yes, Maharaji Really Is A Cult Leader
Message:
Hi Everyone. As you will be able to tell, I have been thinking about the 'cult' subject for quite some time. Now that our friends Mitch Ditkoff and Erika Andersen have weighed in with their lofty intellectual analysis of why Maharaji isn't leading a cult, I thought it was time to polish off my thoughts on this.

So, the following is the result. I will send them to 'Please Consider This' but I expect they will retain their perfect record in demonstrating they are most certainly in a cult, by censoring all contrary information.

Please let me know what you think of the following:

YES, MAHARAJI REALLY IS THE LEADER OF A CULT

It’s pretty clear that people who are still devoted to Maharaji can get really upset when you say that Maharaji is leading a cult. They may even go to a lot of trouble to try to prove otherwise, as we have seen in recent months. First, Elan Vital addressed it in a big section of its website, which consists of a transparent self-serving attempt at throwing up and then destroying straw men of its own creation.

More recently, Erika Andersen and Mitch Ditkoff have written articles on this subject, and currently it’s the topic of the week on their website. In his article, Mitch continues in the same vein as Elan Vital by attempting to explain why followers of Maharaji don’t meet certain aspects of a cult “definition.” [I’d like to request that if anyone can make any sense out of Mitch’s meanderings on this subject to please let me know.] Erika Andersen tries another angle. She presents a long expose about how “normal” her life is. Since neither mass marriages nor ritualistic abuse appears in her list of daily activities, Erika reassures us that she couldn’t possibly be in a cult.

Why is this such a big deal to them? Probably because cults have a pretty bad reputation in this society, what with Jonestown, the Moonies, Scientology, Heaven’s Gate, and the rest. It also looks bad for propagation purposes, and it’s embarrassing. When I was a follower of Maharaji, I would never, even for a minute, have thought I was in a cult. I would have considered it an insult if someone said I was.

Sure, I thought the Moonies were a cult, and the Hare Krishnas were a cult, but I and the other people following Maharaji, couldn’t possibly be a cult, could we? Of course not, I reasoned, because what Maharaji was offering was real, and I was just too smart ever to be in cult. Everything I did appeared to be of my free choice, and weren’t cults so weird that it would be obvious if you were in one?

Unfortunately, no. One of the characteristics of being in a cult is that you don’t think you are because a cult is all about protecting yourself from those kind of thoughts. Many people, after they leave cults, discover that’s exactly what they were in, and they have spawned all kinds of “ex-cult” groups and websites like Ex-Premie.Org, and large organizations like CAN and AFF, whose members proclaim that they were once members of cults. [For record, both CAN and AFF have listed Elan Vital/Maharaji as a “cult.”]

The simple (and obvious) reason for this division is that once you discover you are in a cult, you are probably either already out of it, or on your way out. Hence, the divide between the current and former followers of Maharaji on the “cult” issue is quite wide and there is little common ground on the subject.

I have thought a lot about groups and cults, and I’ve read and studied a lot to try to understand better how I ever became a follower of Maharaji in the first place, and why I remained one for as long as I did. The purpose of this article is to explain, based on my own research and my own experience, why I say that Maharaji is, and always has been, the leader of a cult, and to try to boil it all down to the most basic level I can. I have tried to set aside the hyperbole.

Maharaji’s Followers Are Not Brainwashed

Let’s just get this out of the way quickly. “Brainwashing” implies unwilling indoctrination of alien principles and beliefs and Manchurian Candidate images of overt control techniques. Maharaji does not brainwash people and followers of Maharaji are not brainwashed.

So, If We Weren’t Brainwashed, Why Did We Join?

Like with any other cult, people become premies/PWKS because they see something they think they want. This might be friends, community, absolutes to live by, a way to “know one’s self,” a way to “experience the energy that is God,” a simple formula for life, happiness, etc. When I was first introduced to Maharaji and his followers, I saw premies as a loving group of people who seemed to be happy, and I wanted to be in their “family,” to share what I thought they had, and I thought I lacked. I wanted the promised experience of the peace inside of me. I wanted to be a part of bringing peace to the world, which Maharaji said he was doing.

I was told by premies and Maharaji that to get those things I wanted, the key was to “receive knowledge.” So, very early on, like literally within hours of my first “satsang,” I decided I wanted knowledge. At the same time, I also noticed lots of really weird, or at least illogical, stuff that seemed to go along with it, like worshipping this kid, feeling “devotion” (now “gratitude”) to this strange person, pranaming, feet-kissing, and the like. This set off “red flags” in my analytical thinking, and briefly caused me to question all I was being told. So, I now had an internal dilemma. How could I deal with the major problem for me, which was that this “Maharaji” and dedication to him, came along with the premies and the “knowledge” that I wanted so badly?

Followers of Maharaji Are Not Coerced; They Are Cooperators in Their Own Programming

Many people resolve this dilemma by dropping out of the process. They split. They are part of the vast majority of people who hear about Maharaji, maybe even come to some introductory event, and never follow through. They aren’t hooked. It doesn’t take. But another way to resolve it is for the individual to follow the directives of the cult and suspend normal critical judgment in this area, in order to obtain the “carrot” representing the fulfillment desired, in this case to get “knowledge.” In this way, the individual engages in cooperation with what the cult is telling them. Unfortunately for me, that’s what I did.

Cult researchers will tell you that because this process involves mutual and willing cooperation, and the individual views all decisions as their own, it is a more binding form of “mind control” than other forms, and harder to undo, because of the illusion that it was all just a personal choice. Indeed, I wanted to believe it. It fulfilled a “need,” and it was “my decision.” In fact, the strongest, most enduring, and most insidious, programming in the Maharaji cult goes on before the individual even receives knowledge, at this very juncture.

I can still remember the feelings and the process from my own experience. I wanted to receive knowledge. So, I did what they said I had to do; I listened to premies and Maharaji talk about it and sing songs about it. This was before video, but during the days of satsang every single night. I also watched movies about it, read articles about it, and I traveled across the country and saw Maharaji speak twice before I received knowledge. In this process “aspirants” like me, are told one has to be “ready” to receive knowledge and yet there is no test or measure of what “ready” means, just that one has to have “that understanding” to “have no more doubts,” to “get rid of all pre-conceived ideas about Maharaji and knowledge,” and “be open.”

So, left with no clear guidelines and completely ambiguous instructions, most people are going to take this the way I did, that it means stripping away value judgments and restraining all doubts or critical analysis of anything that was happening in connection with Maharaji or knowledge. To fail to do that was to not be “open” or it was evidence that the impediments of doubt were still there, and therefore you wouldn’t get what you wanted, to receive knowledge.

So, I pushed all the sincerity buttons I had; I tried not to think critically or negatively about Maharaji. I tried to be open by not letting “my mind” criticize or analyze any of this process. What was the point, anyway? I was told that I wouldn’t really be able to judge any of it until I received knowledge and that knowledge was something that couldn’t be explained in words.

At some critical point in this period, I crossed over into the world of “cult.” I did this by deciding that I wanted knowledge so much that I would ignore much of my critical/analytical faculties, and even my own “gut feelings.” This was the beginning of my practicing of cult mind control which consists mainly of learning to shut down the critical part of my thinking when it came to Maharaji and knowledge. Amazingly, that process, that repressive mechanism, continued for almost 10 years thereafter, getting ever more efficient as I practiced it. So efficient in fact, that for many years I had no conscious awareness that I was even doing it.

Then began the exercises in traumatic humiliation known as “knowledge selections.” Twice I sat in the “selection” process and wasn’t selected by the Instructor. I watched, increasingly heartbroken and desperate, as those who were selected seemed ecstatic and privileged. I wanted to be like them. And I wanted to be happy like the premies, who had by this time become my friends and they were rooting for me to receive knowledge. Having been rejected, I re-doubled my efforts to “be ready” and “be open.” Any critical thought was immediately discarded. I even started singing the praises of Maharaji and knowledge. I had become not only “open,” I had become dedicated.

Finally, after cutting my university classes, and taking a bus 350 miles, I was in yet another “selection” for knowledge. By this point my critical thinking became just irrelevant background noise. I was even “praying” to Maharaji, who was by now a kind of an imaginary friend to me, to please give me knowledge and let me be his devotee. By the time I was selected to receive knowledge, I couldn’t even imagine doubting anything about Maharaji or knowledge, or even looking at any of it objectively in any way approaching how I looked at anything else. But if you would have asked, I would have told you that all of this was happening by my free will, by my free choice.

I was so far gone that by this point I was even willing to say that I devoted my life to Maharaji (then Guru Maharaj Ji), when the Instructor asked that I do so. Amazing. Here I was, a guy at the top of my university class, a guy who was a confirmed anti-authoritarian, a semi-Marxist, a guy who had left the Catholic Church because it was too paternalistic, devoting my life to a human being, who claimed to be another Jesus Christ, somebody I had never met and knew virtually nothing about. Yes, it could even happen to me, and it did. And if it could happen to me, it could happen to anybody.

So, I received knowledge, and let’s just say that the experience did not blow my socks off. It was actually somewhat disappointing. But by that time, I no longer had much capacity to evaluate anything about Maharaji. But it felt okay because now I belonged, and the premies held a “birthday party” for us, and it was all kind of nice, and I was a new baby. Give it time, I thought. Don’t doubt, don’t judge, just be open and give it a chance, the premies told me. I wasn't even conscious of the fact that I had given that up my critical thinking. Like I said, it was almost 10 years before that changed.

Okay, so what was I now a part of? I was now part of the Maharaji cult. It is and was a cult, that fits the definition Mitch Ditkoff uses in his article:

1. A group claiming to have “the answer” as the “only way” to peace and happiness;
2. A leader to whom “excessive dedication” occurs; and

3. The use of “mind control techniques.”

I’m sure even Mitch agrees that Maharaji claimed that he had the one experience of “peace and happiness” and that he was the only person on the planet offering it. I’m sure he would also agree that “excessive devotion” has been expressed to Maharaji, including just a few months ago, when his followers, once again, lined up to kiss his feet. But what about the “mind control?” How did that manifest after I received knowledge and was a full-fledged follower of Maharaji?

“Mind Control” (Better Known as: Discouragement of Doubt) in the Maharaji Cult

Although “mind control” is a heavy term, there is nothing magical or strange about how it manifests in cults. It's pretty basic stuff. But what do I really mean by it when it comes to the Maharaji cult? Well, in addition to the process I already described, the following eight examples are characteristics of the cult that caused me and others to limit our thoughts – to engage in “mind control.” These are all “Mind Control Techniques” described in general terms in the literature and research on cults. They should be easily recognizable to anyone who has been a follower of Maharaji:

1.The Commandment Against Doubting. Cults almost always forbid or discourage their members from doubting anything about the Cult, and especially the Cult Leader. Maharaji was especially explicit about this. For many years, Maharaji had a “Commandment” that his followers were supposed to follow, which was to “Never Leave Room for Doubt in Your Mind.” I know he doesn’t have “commandments” anymore, but I think the principle is still there, and I read a transcript of Maharaji speaking in Argentina in which he again lambasted “doubts” as a detriment to your “experience.” I know that some PWKs say that the commandment actually meant something else, but I find the explanations absurd. It says what it says. Moreover, in my experience, doubts in the Maharaji cult were always discouraged, with or without the existence of Maharaji’s “commandment.”

So, after you receive knowledge, after the repression of your thoughts that it took to get to that point, Maharaji gives you a commandment that says you aren’t supposed to doubt and that doubting interferes with the “experience.” Obviously, this makes it nearly impossible to look at knowledge or Maharaji objectively.

2. No Critical Question about the Leader or His Teaching is Legitimate. One of the true tests of whether someone is in a cult is whether he or she can criticize the Cult Leader. It’s nearly impossible, indeed is impossible, to get a one of Maharaji’s followers to do it. Of course, they will say there is nothing to criticize, because cult thinking will not allow those critiques, those “doubts” to enter, and if they do, they are immediately repressed. It causes a cult member great discomfort to think of questioning or criticizing the Cult Leader and if they have such thoughts, they would NEVER say it publicly. This is because the Maharaji cult is really a personality cult, although it retains some “Eastern spiritual cult” overtones. Obviously, if you attack the “personality” what do you have left? Some PWKs can bring themselves to criticize Elan Vital, and various leaders of that and other related organizations. I did the same thing towards the end of my involvement. But mostly, I just blamed myself for even having any doubts in the first place.

Once you are out of the cult, believe me, you will have no problem criticizing Maharaji. All the critical things you have thought about him, about his “efforts” as master, or about knowledge, or about your experiences as one of his followers, all of which have been repressed, will come out like a raging river, and it feels wonderful.

3. Criticism of the Cult and Especially the Cult Leader, in any Form, is Seen as Lack of “Understanding,' or 'Confusion.' In my experience, if you express criticism of Maharaji, or any of his decisions, or Knowledge, or anything related, you get the cold shoulder by his followers and his organization and will be considered “confused” or not “synchronized.” It’s group pressure, really. And if you do so, you can usually forget about moving up in the organization, getting close to the Lotus Feet, getting a good seat at a program, being invited to “the residence,” or getting a good “participation opportunity.”

If you do it too much, you might even be categorized as a “bongo.” Try sitting in your next “participation meeting” and say some negative stuff about Maharaji or what he’s doing. See how open and tolerant your fellow followers are to such statements. It’s unlikely they will encourage you to air your opinions and vigorously discuss your “negative” views. [By the way, being labeled “negative” is about the worst thing that can happen to you in the Maharaji cult and this is yet another form of mind control.]

4. Threats of Dire Calamity if They Abandon Knowledge/Maharaji. I could go into the “tons of rotten vegetables” and other things Maharaji said as threats of what would happen if people abandoned the cult, but that isn’t really necessary. Basically, this is internalized in most PWKs, such that they cannot imagine, and fear, what their lives would be like if they left Maharaji. Since Maharaji has been portrayed as being exclusive in his “perfect master” position, PWKs fear there is no place else to go. This is basically phobia indoctrination. It’s the irrational fear of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. Basically, the PWKs (and this was also true for me), cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being a follower of Maharaji, and Maharaji reinforces this in just about everything he says.

As a premie, I described this psychological dependence on Maharaji or at least my image of Maharaji and the fear I had of rejection by him, as my “love for Maharaji,” despite the fact that I never even met the guy. Also, somehow, if I said I “loved” Maharaji, it gave me some comfort that is was less likely I would ever unconsciously reject him, or that he would reject me.

5. There is Never A Legitimate Reason to Leave/Shunning Those Who Leave. It’s difficult for a follower of Maharaji to see how someone can legitimately leave “that place” and not be miserable. Ex-premies have heard it all, and I thought much the same when people left the cult when I was still a member. People who leave are labeled as “confused,” “lacking the proper understanding,” having gotten into the cult for “the wrong reasons,” wanting a “Hindu spiritual trip,” “undisciplined,” “never having practiced knowledge,” “negative,” or seduced by money, sex, rock and roll. You name it. We have heard it all. Just check out Pia Grunbaum’s and Charles Glasser’s websites, if you want to see it in print. And as for being shunned, how many of us lost our premie “friends” when we left? Now that some of us are notorious ex-premies speaking out on the Internet, that “shunning” has evolved into open hostility. It even extends to attack websites, like those of CAC, Charles Glasser and Pia Grunbaum. “Please Consider This” is just a lot more diplomatic on that score, but is essentially an attempt at the same endeavor.

6. The Cult Leader and the Cult Make Followers Feel that Any Problems Are Their Own Fault and Never Maharaji’s. This, in my opinion, is the essence of the Maharaji cult. The axiom is this: All that is good is due to Maharaji, or at least ultimately due to him, while all that is bad is due to the PWK, because of the PWK’s lack of understanding, always getting distracted, or “forgetting that place,” his or her own confusion, etc.

If you want to see examples of this, just read the Maharaji cult websites, and see how the writers thereon engage in logical gymnastics to keep from ever blaming Maharaji for anything that ever happened, but are quite willing to place responsibility on themselves or Maharaji’s other followers.

7. Information is Not Freely Accessible/Information Varies at Different Levels/Leadership Decides Who “Needs to Know” What. Elan Vital and Maharaji are notoriously secretive. Very little is disclosed, even to members. And of course, we all know how secretive Maharaji has been about his personal life, with people being “x-rated” in order to be around him. And even PWKs complain of the paranoid secrecy within Elan Vital and Maharaji’s organization. This kind of information control, especially when it involves information damaging to the perceptions of Maharaji and knowledge, is very important in the Maharaji cult, and always has been. This is partly why EPO is seen as such a threat, because it exposes information the cult is trying to keep secret, and information is empowering to people, and even encourages them to look critically at things they accepted as truth in the past.

8. Lots of “Loaded Language” (AKA Thought-Terminating Clichés). These are basically terms that have normal meanings to most people, but to people in the Maharaji cult, they have loaded meanings, that evoke an instantaneous “understanding” such that no further thought about what is being said is necessary. Just to name a few: mind, heart, knowledge, breath (that’s a big one these days), that love, that peace, that experience, that gift (really lots of words with “that” in front of them to convey special meaning), understanding, thirst, negativity, doubt, participation, gratitude, and my personal favorite, “synchronization.” Maharaji can use these words peppered throughout his speech and end up really saying nothing, but sounding profound, with appropriate nods from his followers.

So, by the time I walked out of the knowledge session, and became an official follower of Maharaji, I was already crippled in my ability to judge what was going on with me in relation to the cult and Maharaji. Then, Maharaji’s commandments and teachings, and the culture of the cult itself, discouraged critical analysis, and encouraged its continued repression.

After a very short time, I was on automatic. I automatically engaged in self-censorship of my thoughts, almost all the time after that. It didn’t really matter the particular rituals or living situations I encountered in the cult, the real cult was by then existing largely between my ears, reinforced by the mind control mechanisms described above, and others as well. Sure, occasionally some doubts still got through, but they were pretty easily disposed of, perhaps by some extra meditation, or perhaps by getting a “group high” from an “event.”

I want to emphasize that in other areas, on subjects unrelated to Maharaji and knowledge, I remained pretty much a normal, functioning person, to the extent I could be. It wasn’t until I got out of the cult, and started to unwind that whole process, that I even realized that yes, I really was engaging in that process almost the whole time. When that happened, it was exhilarating. It was like I could finally breathe again, after I had somehow forgotten for a very long period of time.

Joe Whalen
November 1, 2001

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 22:04:57 (EST)
From: And the third one??
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Yes, Maharaji Really Is A Cult Leader
Message:
OK Joe, I've saved this EXCELLENT post and the EXCELLENT ashram post in my word Docs (if I bookmark the forum posts they end up blank eventually??) ....what's next? :)

Cheers

Dermot

...Damn, just add this edit....I meant "and the third one?" as the title, not my name!!

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 20:30:43 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Tremendous Joe , and how apt
Message:
that you should publish it on All Saints Day .

You should write a book.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 23:36:36 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Yet another tour de force
Message:
Excellent post, Joe. You have such penetrating insights.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:27:31 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Brilliant - needs a permanent place
Message:
....and prominent place on EPO. Not only best of forum but maybe also under Journies or even on EPO as an introduction. It explains so many things that can never be contradicted by the new premie websites.

Maharaji has worked hard in the past few years to disband any last remnants of ''community'' to the point where premies are isolated in their houses watching video broadcasts. It is obviously no longer a group cult in the west simply a ''a cult between the ears'' of each individual premie, a folie a deux, a cult of two, the master and student, an invisible cult.

The funny thing is how much all PWKs still think and talk alike. There is no need for group mind-control when each individual ''student'' is a slave to a master.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:33:37 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent, Joe and Comments...
Message:
Hi Joe,

Your post is one of the most thoughtful written here about EV/M being a cult. However, I disagree with the following statement you made concerning brainwashing:

Maharaji’s Followers Are Not Brainwashed

Let’s just get this out of the way quickly. “Brainwashing” implies unwilling indoctrination of alien principles and beliefs and Manchurian Candidate images of overt control techniques.

Maharaji does not brainwash people and followers of Maharaji are not brainwashed.

Joe, I think that Maharaji does brainwash his followers. It may not be in the style of the Manchurian Candidate, but nontheless, entering the M cult is a process of being brainwashed through thought control and coercion, albeit more subtle coercion. When I entered the cult, the process was to listen to satsang which was purposely geared toward new people. Once an aspirant I was listening to satsang every night for at least an hour and a half and more on weekends, reading the print material which consisted mostly of Maharaji's satsang, attending regional programs, and listening over and over to his tapes. As a person goes through the process of adapting the thought processes as prescribed by Maharaji and is nurtured through this process by premies or PWKs, I believe it is brainwashing.

I've been reading Raven the book about the Jim Jones/Peoples Temple cult. Among many other similarities, the tactics used in this regard are chilling. Those cult members also were subjected to long hours of Jones's rant, both before going to Guyana, and certainly after. Whenever they slacked off on their work (really a parallel to DECA) they were sent tapes of Jones, who was still in California.

From Page 277-278:

''Just when [Jonestown] settlers got too complacent, just when they were beginning to forget their holy mission, hour-long tapes of Jim Jones's sermons and teachings would arrive from California. Listening to each tape eight or ten times would jar them into remembering how bad things were back home. Then their productivity would improve noticeable.''

These tapes would be played on a broadcast system so the people could not avoid listening to them. IMO, it's all brainwashing, because lies and fear are instilled in the cult-member by being reminded who is boss. It's semantics, yes, but I believe it's important to realize that mind-control is brainwashing.

Also, FYI, I wanted to mention that the Cult Awareness Network (CAN) which you mentioned, is not a legitimate cult awareness organization. I've posted a link to Rick Ross's website which explains the process of how CAN was taken over by Scientologists.

Other than the brainwashing comment, Joe, your essay is excellent! Thanks so much.

Cynthia

I couldn't get the link thingy to work, but here's the URL:
http://www.rickross.com/cgi-bin/htsearch?config=&restrict=&exclude=&method=and&format=long&sort=score&words=Scientology

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 17:56:37 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks, Cynthia
Message:
Just two comments:

Regarding 'brainwashing' it depends on how you define the term. The traditional definition is coercion, kind of forcing people, through intimidation, etc., to believe something. I don't think that happens in the Maharaji cult. In fact, people who are 'brainwashed' in this fashion, usually lose the brainwashing some time after they get out of the situation, but the kind of mind control we underwent in the Maharaji cult is a lot more enduring, because we can't point to actual coercion.

But if you use a broader definition like you are, (the endless satsang, endless emersion in cult teachings, etc.), then I agree, it is brainwashing.

So, I was using the traditional term, and I also don't like to use the term in the broader sense you do because it is so 'loaded' to say that somebody is 'brainwashed.' It kind of ends the discussion right there, and I wanted to emphasise that yes, we really did make certain choices to go along with culthink at least at some point.

Regarding CAN, I know that CAN in the US has been taken over by the Scientologists, and AFF has kind of taken over the old CAN duties. I was referring to the 'old CAN' and also the CAN in other countries, which it still exists outside control by Scientology. One very active one is in Australia, run by Jan Groenveld, who I have found particularly helpful in understanding cults.

CAN Australia clearly lists EV/Maharaji as a 'cult' and so does AFF.

You can visit the CAN Australia website at: http://caic.org.au

Thanks Cynthia. I have limited time, so I don't respond to many posts, but I wanted to let you know that I always enjoy yours.

Joe

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Date: Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 14:32:30 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Thanks, Joe
Message:
Hi Joe,

Thanks for your clarification on brainwashing, it helps.

Also, again, thanks for this superb and thoughtful essay which I believe should be a permanent part of EPO. I explains everything about the cult so well.

Hope you are well...(stay off of bridges, please)
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 16:50:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Or at least don't spend too long on them
Message:
...(stay off of bridges, please)

Joe,

I agree that you should avoid the bridges if you can. If you can't, though, I'd suggest that you just drive on and drive right over to the other side without stopping.

Hm? That's only quetionably funny too, isn't it?

Sorry.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 18:26:10 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, you need to write your 'Journey'! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:32:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Better than even the average excellent post, Joe
Message:
This really is a top drawer post.

This part especially:

Cult researchers will tell you that because this process involves mutual and willing cooperation, and the individual views all decisions as their own, it is a more binding form of “mind control” than other forms, and harder to undo, because of the illusion that it was all just a personal choice. Indeed, I wanted to believe it. It fulfilled a “need,” and it was “my decision.” In fact, the strongest, most enduring, and most insidious, programming in the Maharaji cult goes on before the individual even receives knowledge, at this very juncture.

Thanks

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:12:51 (EST)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Yes, Maharaji Really Is A Cult Leader
Message:
Hi Joe,
Thank you so much for your thoughts, I echo with them. It is so obvious that it is a personality cult I am amazed as time goes by how clarity really comes and I can see it for what it really is.
I have been outcasted by the premies in my community they don't even talk to me and they are surprised I look good and serene...no comment.
Thanks again,
Mercedes
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:14:29 (EST)
From: Thanks Joe
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Yes, Maharaji Really Is A Cult Leader
Message:
I don't know how you can give so much time and thought to the subject, but I do know that what you have written will be of great help to many. It really pinpoints the subtle nature of the indoctrination or self-hypnosis, the complicit suspension of disbelief which of course is powered by the self-interest motive; wishing for peace, enlightenment, clarity and love etc. I fell for it big time .

I'd love to run it past a few premie friends
Thanks Joe

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 07:38:07 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Excellent post! NT
Message:
yeap
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 05:21:34 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thank you so much
Message:
That is absolutely marvellous. I wish the premies who have turned their back on me now that I am an infidel could read that.
love magiclara
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:53:25 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: *** Best of Forum ***
Message:
Joe,

Brilliant analysis. It will definitely get its own page on EPO.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:51:40 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That may be the best post I have ever read.
Message:
Great analysis. Just excellent.
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 03:11:45 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Definately best of forum !!
Message:
thanks Joe, for puttting forth the considerable time and effort to construct this insightful and intelligent piece

Brilliant writing

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 20:57:50 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: This Deserves A Prominent Place On EPO
Message:
Joe:

Just a fabulous essay, Joe, so well written and exhibiting 'that clarity' we so desperately sought by coming to Maharaji and, sadly, thought we had, but didn't.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:51:26 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Don't worry, best of forum is being updated
Message:
I'm into it theses days, still some work to do ....
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 15:47:28 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: J-M, And it's very much appreciated...
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

I want to thank you again for all the work you do to keep the material on EPO updated and ongoing with new developments.

I don't know how you do it, but your efforts mean a lot to me.

Much Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 04:27:23 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Grace and Help
Message:
I have some spare time, and get some help from exes and friends that don't want to be mentioned here.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 20:20:16 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Now this one needs to be preserved...
Message:
Joe-

Quite an essay....this should be required reading for all premies and aspirants in that book that the MRC recommended that maharaji provide for all aspirants to see whether he ran a cult or not....

Quite a discourse....this should be prominently displayed for discussion....

Good work.....I would like to see a response from ev to it....

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:13:41 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: The cult between my ears
Message:
Joe, Thanks so much for your stupendous efforts here. I enjoyed this a lot. I especially liked the last paragraph, with the great new phrase (we can have cliches too): 'the cult between my ears,' and the idea that you have been able to breathe easily since leaving. That's hysterical.

love kt

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 18:02:45 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Thanks, everyone....
Message:
You guys as too sweet.

Happy Day of the Dead!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 17:41:29 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Another abusive guru
Message:
Here's their main site, which also has some good links and an ex-cult resources center.

A sex harassment lawsuit against their leader put them into bankruptcy, which was absorbed by the followers, as the guru fled the country.
[ Ananda -- Kriyananda follies ]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:42:49 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Is there another kind? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:30:55 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: This is so believable...
Message:
Hi Francesca,

Thanks for these sites, in particular this comment struck me:

Despite overwhelming evidence against them, Kriyananda and the Ananda Church still refuse to accept responsibility for their actions or offer any apology. Even though Kriyananda was forced to admit that he had indeed had sex with his nuns, he still claims he did nothing wrong, that he was only acting out of divine love and friendship, and that no one was hurt. Kriyananda claims that he is merely the victim of a conspiracy by embittered former Ananda members intent on his destruction. According to jurors that we interviewed, the jury was outraged at Kriyananda's arrogant, self-righteous and unrepentant attitude during the trial.

This is too familiar. This creep was using women, just as Maharaji has and continues to do. We make fun of Monica, but I wonder about her sometimes. This sex offender/guru blames everything on ''embittered former Ananda members,'' which tells me that the pattern of abuse of power in these cults presents something terribly wrong with the personalities of cult leaders such as Kriyananda, Maharaji, and Jim Jones. Examining this, (aside from the Jagdeo matter) there are women out in the world who have been abused in the same manner by Maharaji. I often wonder how they have dealt with this and how they are. I wish them well. This attitude of entitlement, with excuse after excuse for illegal behavior in the form of sexual exploitation, is part of the lack of any kind of basic character development in these individuals, including those in the inner circle who facilitate this behavior, have knowledge of it and do nothing. I'm shaking my head, not in disbelief, but in disgust. His leaving the country is quite similar to Jim Jones. And there is Amaroo for Maharaji.

This statement on the same site struck me too:

Judging form the evidence, including Kriyananda's own writings, Kriyananda probably has a serious sexual addiction, seems to
also suffer from a narcissistic personality disorder with accompanying manifestations of persecution and grandeur complexes. And yet, to be seen as an authentic representative of his guru, Paramahansa Yogananda, Kriyananda has cultivated an exalted image of himself which he and his church have vigorously promoted over the last 30 years. Here is a man presuming to teach us about spiritual truths, but is himself living a lie. Here is a man who sets himself up as an example for us of inner freedom, who is himself a slave to his senses.

This is self-explanatory. Based on what I know, have heard, and experienced in the M cult, Maharaji has to be placed into this category of cult leaders.

What makes me want to puke is that I was once his follower.

Thanks again,

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 20:08:03 (EST)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Yes, it's interesting to see the miles walked
Message:
... in someone else's shoes. Especially when (oh gawd) the shoes fit! There was another guru I found on the net a few months ago that Stonor and I were discussing, and it was the same story. Someone in my old Buddhist group had actually lived in the Ananda ashram. His followers that I met were all nice people, like premies.

We nice people have got to wake up!!!

Bests,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 16:07:40 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca ~)
Subject: Why was I so naive?
Message:
Hi Francesca,

I try to look at the best in people. It's astounding to me how many people abuse others for profit and power.

For me to have even gone to 1, yes, one satsang was a real stretch. I was not searching. Yet I got pulled in.

And now all this. The aftermath of megalomaniacs. Women and children. Men and boys. All abused for what?

Money and Power.

Barf bag, please...

Love,
Cynthai

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 18:26:12 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Here's another one for the collection
Message:
Dear Cynthia,

Here's the other cult leader I was thinking of. If you click on the link at the bottom of the article, there's all sorts of stuff about the Fellowship of Friends. In the 80s when I was leaving GMJ's ashram, I had a friend who had just left the Fellowship of Friends ashram and was embarassed to tell anyone but me about it. I forget how they hooked in all her money, but she had to take a second job to pay off the debts she'd incurred in dedicating her life. Sick, huh?

People say that some of M's contributors may have taken on a line of credit themselves.

It is interesting that they say this sort of stuff:
While they don't deny Burton may have had sex with male followers, they insist the encounters were consensual acts between adults and irrelevant to the group's mission of pursuing greater self-awareness. Individual responsibility is key in their beliefs, they say.

'The Fellowship does not engage in brainwashing,' said Girard Haven, of the board of directors. 'We may have a charismatic leader and strong feelings about higher forces and our own spirituality, but we know what we are doing. We are not doing it blindly.'

Furthermore, said Haven, members are free to leave, as some 8,000 have done in the past two decades.

Burton, 57, was unavailable for an interview. He hasn't spoken to the press since 1981, but he wanted to 'pass on' information about some of his critics whom he believes 'had a history of mental problems,' according to Fellowship President Peter Bishop.

Does some of this sound familiar, or what???

I also knew a gay man in San Francisco after I left the ashram that had been one of the cult leader's lovers. He said he the cult leader had a regular debaucheria going, and many of the followers had no idea what a sick-o he was. This friend liked premies a lot, but wanted nothing to do with cults. He was in my circle of premie friends, and would sometimes let us drag him to the more informal satsang meetings, back when people could have them in their homes.

Bests,

Francesca
[ Fellowship of friends ]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 14:43:22 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Of EV Monitors And CACweasels...
Message:
1) Avoidance. They never actually discuss issues head-on or provide constructive input, generally avoiding citation of references or credentials. Rather, they merely imply this, that, and the other. Virtually everything about their presentation implies their authority and expert knowledge in the matter without any further justification for credibility.

2) Selectivity. They tend to pick and choose opponents carefully, either applying the hit-and-run approach against mere commentators supportive of opponents, or focusing heavier attacks on key opponents who are known to directly address issues. Should a commentator become argumentative with any success, the focus will shift to include the commentator as well.

3) Coincidental. They tend to surface suddenly and somewhat coincidentally with a new controversial topic with no clear prior record of participation in general discussions in the particular public arena involved. They likewise tend to vanish once the topic is no longer of general concern. They were likely directed or elected to be there for a reason, and vanish with the reason.

4) Teamwork. They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum, but there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one of the players will infiltrate the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or other tactics designed to dilute opponent presentation strength.

5) Artificial Emotions. An odd kind of 'artificial' emotionalism and an unusually thick skin -- an ability to persevere and persist even in the face of overwhelming criticism and unacceptance. This likely stems from intelligence community training that, no matter how condemning the evidence, deny everything, and never become emotionally involved or reactive. The net result for a disinfo artist is that emotions can seem artificial. Most people, if responding in anger, for instance, will express their animosity throughout their rebuttal. But disinfo types usually have trouble maintaining the 'image' and are hot and cold with respect to pretended emotions and their usually more calm or unemotional communications style. It's just a job, and they often seem unable to 'act their role in character' as well in a communications medium as they might be able in a real face-to-face conversation/confrontation. You might have outright rage and indignation one moment, ho-hum the next, and more anger later -- an emotional yo-yo. With respect to being thick-skinned, no amount of criticism will deter them from doing their job, and they will generally continue their old disinfo patterns without any adjustments to criticisms of how obvious it is that they play that game -- where a more rational individual who truly cares what others think might seek to improve their communications style, substance, and so forth, or simply give up.

6) Inconsistent. There is also a tendency to make mistakes which betray their true self/motives. This may stem from not really knowing their topic, or it may be somewhat 'freudian', so to speak, in that perhaps they really root for the side of truth deep within. I have noted that often, they will simply cite contradictory information which neutralizes itself and the author. For instance, one such player claimed to bea Navy pilot, but blamed his poor communicating skills (spelling, grammar, incoherent style) on having only a grade-school education. I'm not aware of too many Navy pilots who don't have a college degree. Another claimed no knowledge of a particular topic/situation but later claimed first-hand knowledge of it.

7)Time Constant. Recently discovered, with respect to News Groups, is the response time factor. There are three ways this can be seen to work, especially when the government or other empowered player is involved in a cover up operation: 1) ANY NG posting by a targeted proponent for truth can result in an IMMEDIATE response. The government and other empowered players can afford to pay people to sit there and watch for an opportunity to do some damage. SINCE DISINFO IN A NG ONLY WORKS IF THE READER SEES IT - FAST RESPONSE IS CALLED FOR, or the visitor may be swayed towards truth. 2) When dealing in more direct ways with a disinformationalist, such as email, DELAY IS CALLED FOR - there will usually be a minimum of a 48-72 hour delay. This allows a sit-down team discussion on response strategy for best effect, and even enough time to 'get permission' or instruction from a formal chain of command. 3) In the NG example 1) above, it will often ALSO be seen that bigger guns are drawn and fired after the same 48-72 hours delay - the team approach in play. This is especially true when the targeted truth seeker or their comments are considered more important with respect to potential to reveal truth. Thus, a serious truth sayer will be attacked twice for the same sin.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 20:50:31 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: thanks much Gerry nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 22:24:27 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Good post Gerry [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:17:39 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: gerry
Subject: 8) No verifiable history
Message:
I don't mean anonymity, as such. There have been a good few exes who, for good reason - such as contact with their kids, have needed to remain anonymous. But they don't use that anonymity as 'both a shield and a weapon' (as Jim once characterised CW's punch and judy stuff). And there will usually be at least one non-anonymous forum regular who can vouch for that person's authenticity. ('VP' and a couple of others come to mind - most recently 'Pam')

Whether through fear of EV, fear of premie opinion, fear of being identified as idiotic cult members in the eyes of work colleagues, whether whatever, whatever... Trollsters are more than merely anonymous: they make no effort to establish credibility as bona fide human beings with credible personal histories in or out of the cult.

(I caught an exchange of posts between Gail and CW yesterday regarding a phone call. Is this for real? Are you our same regular 'Gail', Gail? Doesn't ring quite true, somehow. Hmm.. Do you know Catweasel? Does he smell nice?)

I am not so bothered that such characters exist, arrive here unwelcome and unvited to a forum not set up for them. Nor that they spit and snarl at sincere, identifiable posters with sensitive histories. Nor that they squeal whenever they feel 'bullied' by a 'lynch mob' (ie. challenged on some implausable claim they have made and have been asked to defend or support with evidence). Nor even that they care not whether Jagdeo flees to rape another day.

No - what gets me is the way their blatant attention-seeking behaviour always succeeds. They get the attention and the discussion is hi-jacked away from M and K and onto them - thereby indulging their narcissistic personas beyond their wildest dreams. Did you notice how 'SC's face brightened the moment JHB started a thread in his honour? Did a long and more-self-indulgent-than-ever reply. It was like having cerise back among us. Does anyone here enjoy their stuff apart from themselves? I don't even see premies applauding. (Bjorn, why did you NEVER speak up for Catweasel? You could still be here among us if Gail had put in a kind word... - Only kidding Gail - but you understand our concerns, here..? ;)

And, yes, I include Mr Roupell here, since, although he has been well and truly outed, I don't remember him volunteering personalinformation before hia outing, nor even confirming his ID since, nor apologising to Abi publically until we was too embarrassed not to apologise. Thus DW's responsibility for, say, cerise's or SC's stuff can still be easliy denied as the need arises.)

Nige the grumpy bastard it's been a busy week but the night is still young and we've opened the first flagon of Away With The Pixies and put some sounds on.. Ciao..xxx

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:43:52 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: errr....Not exactly Nige
Message:
Please be assured that SC's face was already bright before JB's little jog down memory lane. And no, sorry, the brightness had absolutely NOTHING to do with F7 or that scurrilous piece of smut..

Look at gerry's indepth review of cultweasels and you will see that SC's response could have been a smart bomb, a carpet bombing session or a bloody site worse. So happens SC chose to enjoy his day and nothing and nobody was about to interrupt. But some here will keep trying, we know that much.

As for History...What kind of History do you want? My premie credentials are impeccable right back to 71. Oh shit, that doesn't count here does it? Thought I was in an EV audition for 'new management' positions for a second there.

Let's go back further...
I went to school in Horsham, played rugby and foorball against PW's prep school, lived in a village near Guildford and come from an almost identical clone mold as Patrick Wilson - we're as close historywise as it's possible to be without being born into the same family. Naturally I love and respect him despite our religious differences. I know he'd vouch for me too. (hey Pat, last week I found an old War Picture Library Fleetway comic in mint condition. Got it for #1, it had 1/3d on the cover and the proud title 'Too Tough To Handle' took me right back. The drawings are so intricate, hard to believe so much effort went into those things.)

So Nige, please stop seeing problems where there are none.

Or planting them and hoping they'll take root.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 17:15:31 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: SC
Subject: So is the multi-alias spam era over now???
Message:
I guess there might just be sadder places than Horsham to spend a few years in. None more so than Smarmyji's cult, IMO.

I don't think I am seeing problems where none exist. Your track record here, SC, leaves people suspicious.

What do you know about CAC? How do you feel about Catweasel's last threads?

At the risk of trying to sound morally superior (at which concept every low-lifer of my acquaintance in Liverpool would smirk out loud) honesty is a really important virtue. Actually the most important.

Say who you are. Be who you are. Say what you believe. Talk straight to people. Why not?

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:37:57 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: SC is someone else!
Message:
Interesting to see you talking about your 'self' in the third person, SC/David/Cerise/MK/MrNobody. Reminds me of a certain fat fraudulent nobody.

Perhaps you will get real, eventually. Good Luck with that quest. But I want to know how many fake personas with no history you've wheeled out here? And I'm also interested to to know... have you ever corresponded with an ex under one of your assumed pseudo-personas?

I think you lost your core sense of self long ago and can excuse in your own mind all your deceptions, including the present ones. How you can ever expect anyone to believe anything you say?

It seems you have been such a pseud for so long, there is nothing real in you anynore, and no-one who knows you can ever give you any credibilitiy.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 19:59:42 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Nigel
Subject: that's indeed Our Gail
Message:
Hi Nigel. Yes, Gail is the same person who used to regularly post here. Hi Gail, if you are reading this. I tried to use your email but it got bounced back to me. I'd love to hear from you.

My memory is a bit dim about this -- maybe it's in the archives -- but I recall that Gail had a phone call way back when with either rob or Cat. Since Cat has begged Gail's indulgence, it appears to have been him.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 12:18:54 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: that's indeed Our Gail
Message:
Hi Mar - Gail's interactions with 'Rob' happened way back. I was talking about a new thread where Gail says thanks to 'Catweasel' for a phone call, presumably recent. A bit higher up or lower down this very page...

None of my business who anyone phones, of course - or wouldn't be, except in the sense that stuff made public here becomes everyone's business to at least pass comment..

Didn't quite catch the sense of your last sentence, Maranne. Are you suggesting Rob and Cat might be one and the same? (and therefore possibly also Bazza?)

Nige

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Date: Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 20:34:58 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Yep! It's your Gail!
Message:
Dear Nigel & Marianne:

Yep, It's me! I posted a message about Cat the other day, but it got sent as a null file? At any rate, this goes way back too. I don't think Rob and the Cat are the same person. Rob was a Floridian (I think). At any rate, after I posted Rob's weak-minded proposals for entry to the cult shindig in Montreal, I also posted my phone number and address to see if anyone could sneak me in.

The Cat called me from another continent. He was very nice. He made some suggestions for access to the hall, but I was unwilling to travel all the way to Montreal without a guaranteed in. My days of begging at the door are over (remember the NY program when the scalpers got all the tickets and we couldn't get in with paying $100 per person, so we went on the town instead).

Cat really does believe in Maharaji, and he was very nice to me that day. I think he hoped I would go back to MJ.

I do not know what has transpired here lately.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 17:11:22 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Volunteer EV Monitors And CACweasels
Message:
My thoughts almost to a tee, Gerry, but EV is made up of mostly unpaid volunteers. Unpaid cult fanatics are probably even worse than paid cult apologists and spin-doctors. People like the Aussie agents provocateurs CACweasels who post here are probably driven by religious zealotry.

Premies who have been involved with the cult for nearly 30 years know how EV politics works (it is pretty lose and free-wheeeling for the oldtimers) that's why CAC was able to occur - probably done independently by old-time EV cult fanatics as service to the master.

PS The spammer posting as **** is posting from Hardwar where Rev Rawat is currently preparing for the latest Hans Jayanti revivalist meeting.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:40:56 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: ***
Message:
Pat,

Thanks for the info re ***. I'm sure it's ****, who normally spams from Spain, but spammed from Australia after Amaroo. Obviously a real devotee.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 19:29:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: That's TOOOOOO funny!
Message:
Pat,

Thanks for the info re ***. I'm sure it's ****, who normally spams from Spain, but spammed from Australia after Amaroo. Obviously a real devotee.

John.


---

John,

Do you really think *** is also ****? Funny, I was starting to think the same thing. But what tipped you off? The browser?

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 05:04:31 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: That's TOOOOOO funny!
Message:
Hey, how was I to know that when I type D...J...U...R...O somebody comes along and changes what I type. Bloody censorship, eh? Whatever happened to freedom of speech??? Sack the FA (oops, it's his factory....)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 16:57:15 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Of EV Monitors And CACweasels...
Message:
very good summary. I hope you are keeping it somewhere for reference.
then there was/is rob who slid in on some other thread and slowly drew the exs to him AFTER the topic of legal action had developed.
Then he engaged exes in lenghty conversation that included comraderie and off forum bonding.

Eventually, after a few insignificant volleys, he started a heated debate about some secondary issue with one of our outspoken types , whipped it into a standoff- - and then fairly exploded with the question he wanted answered...'' was there any legal action pending against margarijne.''
For all his cleverness he was pretty clumsy at times-trip on his own stories . Often was inebriated on line and his own bravado exposed him.
Then with hangover he would get more convoluted..
But rob (like cw?) was a self appointed watchdog and so didnt wait to get clearance from upstairs. EV s nightmare, a geurilla spy that they cant control.

Watchdogs seem to dally until topics against maraji get ripe - often opening up another thread of 'controversy' to draw some of the heat off of the discussion.
I think they used to let most anti marji stuff alone- and only when the talk turned to legal issues did they get nervouse.

Now the Jagdeo stuff has developed into an undertow that has changed the playing field permanently.
EV will no doubt design some new anti ex stuff because hans jayanti, birthday, ect is coming up.

Z

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 16:45:54 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Of Paranoia andConspiracy Theories!
Message:
Well fuck me!! Who woulda thought!Now where can I apply for my cheque?
PS:Dubya IS an alien............
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:25:23 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Very funny Cat...I don't think
Message:
Glad you're laughing, we're all but out of a fucking job with this new exposure, you know what the training said about 'discretion'.

I dunno about you pal but I really need that $72k coming in.
In fact I've spent half of next year's income on a G7 Mac recording studio already.

I hope you pull into line at next week's Op training session please... (you f*#kn better)

SC

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 16:51:00 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Ah, the Cat's back.
Message:
Cat,

You wriggled and squirmed, you huffed and puffed, but you didn't answer my questions.

Who tells you what you can and cannot post on the forum?

What do you know about your master's paedophile pal's whereabouts?

(You did say, 'You were told what you couldn't say.' And you did offer information about Jagdeos whereabouts. Which is why I asked in the first place.

So why don't you answer the questions Cat?

Anth, Free to speak his mind.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 05:54:04 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Cat's back. Baxter Funt
Message:
Ianswered that Anth. You? Why should I tell you anything you Queeny boozy ole Pirate.I spoke to the Aus Police. THEY told me not to spread it around here.They were interested in a result. They believe you guys here would hinder that. Abi is different. Iassume she will be contacted. Now get back down to those cliffs and try and lure a Super-tanker or two in for traditional Cornish salvage rights....
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Date: Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 05:11:52 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Cat, you're full of shit.
Message:
Who tells you what you can and can't post on the forum?

What do you know about Jagdeo's whereabouts?

Anth, why doesn't he answer, what's he trying to hide, is he embarrased because he has to check with his cult boss before posting.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:41:26 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Took you long enough
Message:
Crikey Cat,

What rubbish! And it took you ages to come up with it.

Do you know what outclassed means?

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:47:59 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Took you long enough
Message:
Listen Mr Fool .There is no reason for me to say anything. None. But one thing that does bear comment on is your negative on-going participation here. For you to dedicate so much time and effort predominately just dissing P's here says a lot about how fucked up your relationship with your wife(X?)must be.
You just tag along, not knowing anything of the experience that people have had here because your poor mortally wounded ego can't handle rejection and you need someone to blame. You absolute schmuck!You pathetic little loser.
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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 06:08:25 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: I'll take that as a NO, then.
Message:
JohnT to CW: Do you know what outclassed means?

CW to JohnT: Listen Mr Fool .There is no reason for me to say anything. None. But one thing that does bear comment on is your negative on-going participation here. For you to dedicate so much time and effort predominately just dissing P's here says a lot about how fucked up your relationship with your wife(X?)must be.
You just tag along, not knowing anything of the experience that people have had here because your poor mortally wounded ego can't handle rejection and you need someone to blame. You absolute schmuck!You pathetic little loser.

JohnT: I guess you really don't know what outclassed means. How about deluded? Here's a poem I made up about the man you worship. Perhaps it will help you understand.

    Useless!

    Maharaji is quite useless and uncouth
    Says it's wrong to feel, wrong to trust your heart,
    Wrong to think; you just follow his untruth
    Where bondage of illusion is the art.

    His teachings are deceitful, he's a cad,
    Quite the worst guru I've never had.
    He said he'd show us God, but God! he's sad,
    His whole life just a lie; false; rotten; bad.

    He said he's God. I say he is a lie,
    A wealthy no-one poncing off conned folks.
    He cannot tell the truth, nor meet your eye,
    Nor write a decent poem, nor laugh at jokes.

       Prempal Rawat you horrid little man,
       Your game is up, you're headed for the can.


JohnT
- never a premie
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 18:10:41 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Gerry...??
Message:
So-called 'Catweasel'. You said:

But one thing that does bear comment on is your negative on-going participation here

The words 'pot' and 'kettle' come to mind. So on what grounds do you 'participate here' and feel thus qualified to comment on what goes on? What has 'here' got do do with you - whoever the fuck you are - devotee number 367?

For you to dedicate so much time and effort...

Yeah, yeah, pot, kettle, fuck off...

JohnT is a lovely bloke who exists in real life and I have met and uses his real name. Writes some neat poems too. And John's grievance is real. Your grievance (which I assume can only be about the fact ex-cultsters still like talking about their brain-dead days) is laughable.

Gerry - please read this post through and think carefully about blocking this asshole once and forever.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 14:06:08 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: JohnT is not in a cult
Message:
You see CW, that's the point. That's WHY he could talk.

And he must realy LOVE his wife to do what he is doing.

You see, he's not trying to destroy her happiness, he's trying to preserve it! And that means, putting his energy on the those who are tying to retain the cult members. And that's you.

And YOU are the disruptive one here. Look up at the title of the page. Ex-premie. But you've been here for years, unwelcomed and thoroughly disruptive.

JohnT has been kind and helpful and dedicated. You have NO credibility. Sorry! But you planned it that way.

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Date: Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 20:45:00 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: You are a WEIRDO in a cult
Message:
Your sick commentary is beyond culty. You tell a stranger you know nothing about, at all, that he has marital problems.

I tell you he must really love his wife and care about her happiness and you consider that ugly. You're one fucked up dude.

Yikes

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Date: Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 04:13:43 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: JohnT is not in a cult
Message:
Dear me. I tell you , you come over so ugly. Do the world a favour. Leave your head up your arse permanently.You remind me of a Stonefish..
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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 06:28:55 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Derek is such a Harpy!
Message:
Har·py (härp)
n. pl. Har·pies

1. Greek Mythology. One of several loathsome, voracious monsters with the head and trunk of a woman and the tail, wings, and talons of a bird.

2. harpy A predatory person.

3. harpy A shrewish woman.

Source = Dictionary.com

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:54:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Straight from the heart, Cat?
Message:
Cat,

Just calm down for a minute and imagine what it must be like to be married to a cult member. Yes, yes, I know, Maharaji's no cult leader and his following's no cult. But, just hypothetically, Cat, what if he was? Can you do that?

Hm, maybe this is easier. Imagine that John's wife was a member of some group that you thought was a cult. Maybe the moonies, Scientology, whatever. Would you fault him then for trying to blow the lid off the thing? Most people, I'd imagine, would be pretty damn sympathetic with his plight and would well understand his effort to speak out, even if only in frustration.

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Date: Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 04:27:31 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Straight from the heart, Cat?
Message:
I dont think so.
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 23:07:38 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Frustration?
Message:
Now what sort of frustration do we think that could possibly be?

Oh, of course... THAT ONE!

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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 06:40:11 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Muggles are SO tiresome!
Message:
... and one of the most tiresome things about harpy deludes like Derek (CW) and Dave (SC) is their silly solipsist pretence they have some special Knowledge.

Guys, you don't, and it shows.

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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 09:14:29 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Hey Johnny
Message:
Look mate, I just read you six posts today and it's getting sad.

Get ahold of some champers, take your ladylove out to a nice dinner, come home, put on some cool music, stoke up the fire and have a real good lovemaking session. It will help very much with your ailment.

I'm making a big assumption here and I think you know what it is....

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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 11:10:00 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Get real, David
Message:
One of the most tiresome things about harpy deludes like Derek and Dave is their silly solipsist pretence they have some special Knowledge.

Guys, you don't, and it shows.

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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 07:58:06 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Muggles are SO tiresome!
Message:
Once and for all John('Never manifested a Brain') I am not DH. Because you have two posters here with different perspectives to yours doe not mean you don't have two entirely different individuals.
Honestly ,you come across as a very lonely 'Try Hard'
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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 11:14:22 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Get real, Nowhere mandy
Message:
One of the most tiresome things about harpy deludes like the Weasel and Dave is their silly solipsist pretence they have some special Knowledge.

Guys, you don't, and it shows.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:59:16 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Straight from the bile-duct rather [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:45:51 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Gerry ****BEST OF FORUM*****
Message:
Hi Gerry,

First, Gerry, that post is definitely a keeper. It describes in a way I couldn't begin to put into word about these strange cyber-beings. Yet, (and I am going out on a limb here) has anyone entertained the idea that this is coming straight from Maharaji?

Given that CW has posted on the EPO forum so long and now uses Abi once again! to taunt us about the Jagdeo abuses, I have a strong hunch that Maharaji is behind these rambling wackos.

I know, I know, it's way out on a limb, but is it even remotely possible that Maharaji has a designated motley crew spamming us and distracting the issues? The emotional ups and downs of both CW and SC seem similar to me. Could it be?

Anyone, feel free to shoot me down on this speculation....I'm probably wrong, but at least, could it be a PAM, X-rated, having some agya issued fun?

I'm very curious indeed.

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 18:58:15 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: BEST OF FORUM Information
Message:
'Best of Forum' is a section on www.ex-premie.org which, as Gerry says on the forum home page, is independent of this forum. However, Gerry allows EPO to collect and host archives of Forum7. Once those archives are on-line, Jean-Michel trawls through and picks out those posts identified as being 'Best of' for possible inclusion on EPO. If you feel a post deserves that accolade, then reply to the post as you did with '*** Best of Forum ***' so that J-M can easily pick the posts out. Apart from allowing the forum to be archived on EPO, Gerry himself is not involved in the process.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 14:26:06 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Offensive Jokes and Remarks
Message:
Would anyone mind a thread whereby a listing of the most offensive things you've heard said in the would of knowledge is listed together? I realize some of these might be repeats. The reason I ask is that as a person who practiced knowledge for thirty years, I think I was more typical than the x-rated Pams. I did not have contacts or access to people who saw the behind the curtain antics. If I had, I might have exited years ago. As it is, it gives me a reference point for what I thought was going on when in actuality, it wasn't, during those years.
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 19:28:30 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: MAHARAJI is a RACIST PIG
Message:
There is no way that this joke could have ever been funny. Not amongst adults, not among friends, and not under the influence. NEVER. No fuckin conditions at all.

You are dirty repulsive mind fuck Maha, if you are reading this or if one of your squirrly boys are debriefing.

Hey, Maha, want to have some laughs. Let's see if you or your precious fuckin kids squeal when put into a Tandoori oven. Don't worry, the yogurt takes the sting off the heat. Funny eh?

Here's a rupee, buy a clue.

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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 01:17:51 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: DEBORAH IS A SWEETIE PIE
Message:
Is it any wonder we all love and respect her so much?
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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 02:35:59 (EST)
From: Deobrah
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: DEBORAH IS A SWEETIE PIE
Message:
Truth hurts, doesn't it? You apparently show NO DISGUST for the fuckin cocksucker that made that racist joke.

MAHA FUCK FOR BRAINS can do no wrong in cult-sodden brain.

Always refer to yourself in the plural?

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Date: Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 03:59:10 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deobrah
Subject: Always refer to yourself in the plural?
Message:
No, usually it refers to itself in the third person.

Talking about oneself in the plural and in the third person is indicative of being Borg, part of the one communal consciousness, participating in a synchronized way, not being a Lone Ranger, being the ultimate team player.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 04:57:21 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Offensive remarks: M once said...
Message:
One of the most offensive things I ever heard in the world of Knowledge was something M. himself said in one of his videos. I think it was only a couple of years ago.

He likes to tell the story about Krishna and Arjune. I hate that story, because it's from scriptures and is creepy, and when I first got K, one the things I liked about M was he didn't quote scriptures all the time, because Knowledge was not a religion. The premies often said there was no need for scritures when you had a living master or teacher who could talk here and now. That appealed to me a lot.

Anyway, in the story Krishna Tells Arjune there is going to be a battle. Arjunes relatives are on the opposing side, and Arjune tells Krishna he can't kill them, they are his friends and relatives, the people he grew up with, the people who taught him HOW to fight. When Maharaji tells this story, he usually says, the relatives ''symbolize'' negative thoughts and doubts in your mind, and you have to slay them to keep them from destroying your happiness. ''Leave no room for doubt in your mind''.

But on this particular occasion, he said something that shocked and horrified me.

He said something to the effect of, Krishna told Arjune it was OK to kill his relatives, because they didn't have Knowledge, and therefore, THEY WERE ALREADY LIKE DEAD People, so killing them didn't matter!

I was horrified beyond belief. Was that what I WAS before I recieved Knowledge? A DEAD person? That is just the sort of creepy thing I would have expected a CULT leader to say. The kind of thing that creepy christian fundamentalists say. If M had said that before I recieved K, I'm sure I wouldn't have stuck around.

Up to the time I heard this, I had found myself simply disregarding some things M said as unimportant, unhelpful, not-useful, or just plain boring. But after THAT, I started to listen and scrutinize what he said with much more discernment. For the first time, I began to wonder if it was possible that M could actually be DANGEROUS? I was deeply offended.

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 12:40:07 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Chuck, I think he said that more than once
Message:
Chuck,

I remember he told that story when I was still around, with a different twist. He was talking about Krishna and Arjuna on the battlefield, and like you said, Arjuna was distressed about having to fight his friends and relatives. And M laughed and said that Krisha said to Arjuna, 'Kill 'em all. They're all dead already.'

The time I heard it, it was more in the context of 'lila' and the only thing that was real was you and your guru Maharaji. It was supposed to be the devotee and the guru in the guru's world. And at the time, I was so indoctrinated that I thought it was funny. So this must have been a really long time ago that I first heard it.

No wonder he destroyed those old videos. The Kissimmee collection would be rife with wonderful quotes such as this.

I do remember, even in my most indoctrinated days, seeing a video of M screaming on the stage, and saying to myself, 'what would a 'new person' think of this?'

Pukola!

--f

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 15:53:27 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Cult respectability, and hidden agendas
Message:
Hi Fran:

I wouldn't doubt he said it before. I'll bet that is the traditional interpretation of the story in India, where you can say cult-things like that and it seems normal. I hadn't heard it before. It seems a lot of his pre-Jonestown satsangs were full of that kind of talk. Perhaps he toned that kind of language down in the 1980's, when there was a real cult awarness begining because of the Jonestown deaths.

In the 1990's, we've seen cults like Scientology and the Moonies reach a certian level of 'respectibility', or a toleration by society at least. They own major newspapers, give money to politcians, and advertise on TV. Perhaps M now feels it's safer to bring back some of the older cult ways, if he pitches it the right way, to the right people. I've never seen the Arjune story in an aspirant video. What WOULD new people think, indeed!

I wish I could remember which video it was. We got rid of our videos last year. I wouldn't be suprised if it's pulled out of circulation now.

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Date: Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 13:47:54 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Just found the Zen roots of this one
Message:
I wonder if M twisted this concept around because he didn't 'get it' or whether the Radsoami (sp?) have their own version that he twisted around. Anyway, someone told me today that a Zen master had a blue glass by his bed. Someone asked him something to the effect that, if the Zen taught non-attachment, why did he have that nice blue glass. The master said that in his mind it is broken already (i.e. he can see the eventual destruction of the glass), but I am enjoying it while it is here.

There's a LARGE difference between seeing that something will eventually die, and killing it yourself. SHEESH!!! Maharaji is SUCH A DUMMY. But of course, anyone who has the NERVE to say that he is the only one who teaches meditations based on breath is a dummy, and the people who listen to that and don't realize how totally uninformed and ignorant he is to make such a claim are equally dumb, and, sigh, I know some of these equally dumb people. So double sheesh!

And premies have been listening to this arrogant nonsense for years. THINK, people!!!!

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 23:24:34 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: 20th Century Yogis
Message:
In Kissimmee, 1979, I overheard a department head saying to his second-in-command, as I passed by the open window of their trailer/office, 'Just tell them it's agya. They'll do anything.'

That was my first 'drip'.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 13:51:11 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hey Kids! It's toon time again!
Message:
And the award goes to Lord Mufflebutt for Con around the Clock!
[ http://acousticoutlaw.tripod.com/dickweed.html ]
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 00:22:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Just saw it
Message:
Great. Just great.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 13:45:39 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: jhb@ex-premie.org
To: All
Subject: Pam's Future Posts
Message:
As some of you are aware, Pam is hesitant about directly posting on this forum as he/she still needs to protect her/his identity, but does want to contribute more. We have therefore agreed a compromise. Until further notice, all of Pam's posts will be posted by me, on Pam's behalf. I will of course make no editorial changes.

This does not yet mean that I have received the verification I require to feature Pam's posts on EPO, but my personal belief is that Pam is genuine, so I am happy to perform this service.

John Brauns
webmaster EPO (for those that don't know!)

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:08:32 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: One further thing
Message:
I raised with Pam the issue of him/her not replying to his/her posts and pointed out the conversational nature of this forum. She/he said that she/he would rather gather up the issues and reply in one post, ans his/her next post will hopefully demonstrate, so when you reply to Pam's posts, don't get too disheartened if there is no immediate response:-)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:05:37 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Cool :D [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 14:45:05 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yay, John!! Thanks. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 15:12:12 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Yay, John and Pam!! Thanks. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 12:50:51 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Swami Jyoti -- report of abuse
Message:
This sounds so familiar ...

This is the tune that far too many "masters," gurus and spiritual leaders play.

Yucko.
[ Naughty Swami ]

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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:50:49 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: a few snippets from the report:
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 13:52:28 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: A must read for all exes
Message:
He'd always told her that when a guru gets angry, it's not real anger in the sense ordinary people feel--it's a show of anger for the follower's own good.

Right--the egoless, unselfish enlightened one. But Marcel's father had been a very volatile person. She had been abused as a child. 'Swami's anger seemed very real and very threatening.'

... Jyoti responded to Marcel's withdrawal by telling her in a phone conversation there was an 'evilness' in her; he ordered her not to call the ashram because it would 'disturb the vibrations' there.

For three years she stayed away. 'But at the same time, I still believed he was my spiritual teacher.' For three years she believed she was failing in her quest for enlightenment. 'Because I had been abused as a child, I had learned to associate harsh criticism with someone who loves you. I felt he was trying to correct me.' 'I know it sounds incredible, but that's how it works,' she says. 'I still believe the man has a genius, but it's a genius for manipulating people. He has the sort of genius you'd see at Waco or Jonestown.'

... So, eventually, she sued the son of a bitch.

She chose small claims court due to statute-of-limitation complications, and because Jyoti's attorney would be unable to stall with expensive motions and maneuverings allowed in a full-blown civil action.

The sleazy swami didn't bother to appear; after years of suffering, Marcel got her closure.

'I read an interview with the Dalai Lama,' she says. 'I'm not a Buddhist, but I've always felt he has a certain integrity. His followers asked him what you do when you encounter an abusive teacher, someone like Swami. The Dalai Lama said these people should be held accountable publicly. First you try to settle the matter with them, but if they won't admit to what they've done, then you publish. You give their names because they must be held accountable so the abuse can stop. He said criticize openly--it's the only way.'

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 13:52:20 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Brilliant - a Must Read
Message:
It certainly is familiar. I like the fact that she took him to a small claims court to prevent a long legal process, and that he didn't turn up.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 15:06:45 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Brilliant - Thanks, Fran...
Message:
This is a must read.

For once, I am speechless.

Cynthia, who is sick of perverts who lead cults and harbor pedophiles

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 06:59:40 (EST)
From: Live
Email: None
To: All
Subject: From The Intercontinental Hotel....
Message:
You to can spend the evening with Yoram Weiss and Raja Ji. November 10th in Miami. Apparantly, there will be a discussion on events and changes going on around the cult organization. Premies will also get to see a new video or two. Sounds like a lot of fun dont you think?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 08:59:28 (EST)
From: yeah
Email: None
To: Live
Subject: like paying to see the same movie
Message:
again and again.

Very fuuuuuuuuuuuuun....NOT!

Isn't amazing the mental state a premie needs to be in to acept the same crap, never asking questions, not allowed to question, buying the scam, not aware of the deceit. People travel thousand of miles to hear the same crap, hoping for 'something' special to be said.

Yuck!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 00:05:27 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Well,one more for the road!
Message:
hee hee!
[ http://acousticoutlaw.tripod.com/piglet.html ]
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Date: Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 01:04:09 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: That's Fantastic
Message:
You could do a whole book of those. Well done.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:07:09 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Hardy haar haar,
Message:
Anybody recognize the cool 70 cult dudes at the front?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:42:48 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: How true
Message:
This is so not me.

You nailed it, Barry. I'd reserve a permanent spot on ex-premie.org for that one.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:58:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You're right -- should be a motto
Message:
Funny, eh Jer?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 00:15:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Don't stop now
Message:
Barry,

That's very funny. 'This is so not me!' -- can say that again.

How do you do this? This would make for a hilarious contest, don't you think?

So no Hallowe'en tonight?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 00:12:47 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Keep 'em coming, Bar
Message:
These are hilarious. They deserve a place at the House of drek.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:10:50 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Keep 'em coming, Bar
Message:
Hi Marianne. Aren't these PICS hilarious. This speaks for how well Jim UN-propagates. Imagine a never been premie nailing the essence of cult madness. Too funny.

You know, I bet even Premies can laugh at these.

EPO need a funnies page too.

How are you doing?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 21:41:43 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Deborah
Subject: Hey Deb-OT
Message:
I love the jokes. They are wonderful.

I am doing fine. For a more personal update, email me.

Fondly, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 22:55:01 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Hey Deb-OT
Message:
Just sent you an email. Look forward to your response. Bye for now.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 15:36:58 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Yes, I'll put them up at the House
Message:
Yes, indeed. Barry, please email me drek@oz.net your body of works, including that wonderful caricature of Jimbo.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 19:10:52 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Rodger I can't!
Message:
Hi Rog, you see I only have a hot mail account. Hot mail can NOT transport any gifs,jpegs ect.. over a certain bite amount. I think these toons are to big for that mail program. But by all means click the links here and print them off yourself. If no printer-save them on a floppy and bring it to a Monks or whatever copy place. Stay cool, later.
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Date: Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 22:04:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Poor, poor Mitch
Message:
Poor, poor Mitch. This 'man' has hidden his natural curiosity under his coat like a vestigal tail he's embarrassed by. Here's his inane PCT 'article' re Maharaji's alleged lineage:

The Master's Lineage

Something extraordinary happened to me the moment I met the woman who, three years later, became my wife. It wasn't that I fell in love with her immediately. I didn't. But something in me recognized that she was the real deal.

It never dawned on me that first night to ask about her lineage. I had no need to know her history, content as I was to be in the present with her. The fact that her father once worked in a Citroen factory in the French countryside was a non-issue for me. Neither did it matter that her mother was on the chubby side, or her brother died of leukemia at the age of nine.

Metaphorically speaking, the same is true of my connection to Maharaji. When I first met him the furthest thought from my mind was his lineage. I had no clue who his father was or who his guru was or who his guru's guru was or who his dry cleaner was. And while this information might make for interesting reading in a future biography of his life, it was (and is) relatively unimportant to me.

Is the whole 'lineage thing' interesting to me? Sure it is. The rational part of me, the academic, is comforted to know that Maharaji received Knowledge from an acknowledged Master of his time a man whose picture I've seen and whose inspired words I've read. I never met Maharaji's Master. Nor did I meet his Master's Master. And while I have heard stories about the lineage, it remains hearsay, subject to interpretation, fading memory and the perceptions of others.

Which leaves me (and the rest of us) guided only by our present intuitions, perceptions, feelings and thoughts. Mine led me to receive Knowledge, a decision I'm glad to have made. Yours have led you to this web site.

To me, the whole debate about lineage is a kind of spiritual fiddling while Rome burns. Who knows? Who can say? For every opinion, there is an equal and opposite opinion rendered by someone with an equally together resume who equally loves their children, gives to charity, and roots for the same baseball team. Who is right? Who is wrong? And while all of this prime time 'Spiritual Crossfire' is going on, guess what? Our lives are also going on.

From what I can tell, what Maharaji is saying no matter where he came from or where he's going is to know this life. Your life. From the inside out. That's it. Plain and simple. He's not the first one who has talked about it. And he won't be the last. But he is here now. And that is a very good thing.

Mitch Ditkoff
August 14, 2001

How funny, this comparison with his wife, huh? Obviously, the whole point of Maharaji being a so-called Master is a very, very, VERY unique phenomenon firmed up particularly by the notion that he didn't just make the idea up but is, instead, the legitimate heir to a fantastic spiritual legacy. Ohhhhhh, this is all sooooooo obvious!

I also don't believe Mitch at all when he says that he never cared about Maharaji's lineage. Hell, man, we all did.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 01, 2001 at 10:31:58 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mitch is right about one thing.
Message:
Yeah, my old ashram buddy has a point: Maharaji's lineage is not one of the most important things about him. There have been great meditation teachers who've appeared out of the blue, and there've been respectable lineage holders who've been corrupt and clueless.

The fact that Maharaji can be counted among the corrupt and clueless, then, is more important than what lineage he claims.

His corruption, though admittedly not as horrifying as that of many late-twentieth century gurus, is amply documented on the pages of EPO.

His cluelessness (regarding matters of the spirit) should be obvious to anyone who compares his writings (oops, sorry...he doesn't write...transcriptions) to the words of other spiritual teachers. This is a man who can sound like he's sorta making sense, but not a man who's spent time on the meditation cushion and can help his students advance on the spiritual path.

Old habits die hard, Mitch. But freedom is always worth it.




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