Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Nov 07, 2001 To: Nov 13, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


Gallowa' Hills -:- I find this really difficult -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:31:16 (EST)
__ Chuck S. -:- Fence sitting and Premie progress... -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 15:59:42 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- Great post Chuck [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 08:11:17 (EST)
__ __ Jim S. -:- Chuck:a Rajneeshee told me... -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 21:35:24 (EST)
__ Katie -:- It's OK to be on the fence -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 10:30:48 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- You are beginning to see -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 23:49:22 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Brain I hope you save this post -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 05:50:10 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Oops, sorry, Brian, now I called you Brain -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 05:56:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- PatC, the edit feature -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 13:40:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Richard, the edit feature -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 13:49:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Just tried and it failed -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 13:55:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Edit feature currently whacky -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 14:04:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Edit feature currently whacky -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 14:45:07 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Welcome Gallowa' Hills -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 21:16:20 (EST)
__ __ Disculta -:- Welcome Mr. Hills -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 04:56:26 (EST)
__ PatD -:- It just seemed like the.... -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 21:11:40 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Hi Gall. No one expects you to become an ex -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:44:01 (EST)
__ __ magiclara -:- Re: Hi Gall. No one expects you to become an ex -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 04:51:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Gail.. She IS magic.. -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 07:24:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Gail.. She IS magic.. -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 08:25:12 (EST)
__ __ Gallowa' Hills -:- Re: Hi Gall. No one expects you to become an ex -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:12:24 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Ignore Jim -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 13:07:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Can you read, Loaf? -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 13:40:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Get off the fence NOW! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:27:10 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Hi Gall, only you can do that -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:17:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Good Points -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 04:12:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Gallowa' Hills -:- Re: the responses from all of you -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 09:37:51 (EST)

Cynthia -:- Happy Birthday to Me!())(()(() -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 12:07:41 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Thanks for the Great Wishes... -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 11:58:14 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Happy Birthday to YOU! -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 03:45:28 (EST)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Happy Birthday to YOU! -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 05:00:30 (EST)
__ ())())())())())())())())())())()) -:- ())())())())())())())())())())())()) -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:38:50 (EST)
__ ())())())())())())())())())())()) -:- ())())())())())())())())())())())())! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:36:22 (EST)
__ __ }) }) }) -:- })})})})})})})})})}) -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:43:09 (EST)
__ Katie -:- Re: Happy Birthday to Me! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:16:10 (EST)
__ __ Barbara -:- Re: Happy Birthday to Me! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:49:45 (EST)
__ ulf -:- happy Birthday -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:53:45 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Happy Birthday, Cynthia -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:03:44 (EST)
__ Selene -:- Re: Happy Birthday to Me! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:19:15 (EST)
__ Francesca -:-
-:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:11:36 (EST)
__ Chuck S. -:- Happy Birthday Cynthia! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:08:36 (EST)
__ magiclara -:- Re: Happy Birthday to Me! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:20:33 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Happy Birthday Cynthia -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:14:14 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Happy Birthday Cynthia -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:15:06 (EST)
__ Suedoula -:- Re: Happy Birthday to Me! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 12:48:16 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- HEY HOTBOARDS! Hey Anth! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:43:56 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- You're turning into a a techie Pat. -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 12:28:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Well, I know about the megahurts, Anth -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 13:46:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Do they have meat in Pat? -:- Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 19:00:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Do they have meat in Pat? -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 00:29:36 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- News? Not to me:=( -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:18:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You deserve a gold medal, John -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:25:08 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- SEE! this message appeared here and .... -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:45:59 (EST)

NewsFlash -:- Maharaji at Hans Jyanti Declares!!! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:50:37 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- That's very funny stuff }) [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:41:29 (EST)

Katie -:- Reposting Vicki's 'BEST' post from below -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:46:56 (EST)
__ AJW -:- That's great Vicki, but... -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 06:07:22 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Re: That's great Vicki, but... -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 13:39:29 (EST)
__ Jim S. -:- Re:Vicki's BEST...should this be... -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:08:39 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes, for sure -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:06:16 (EST)
__ __ Francesca :C) -:- This should be put with Rich Mandrake's -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:11:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: This should be put with Rich Mandrake's -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:37:10 (EST)
__ __ __ Peg -:- Vicki's reply to Desert Woman -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:53:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Peg -:- No winzip can someoe else find it? [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:19:06 (EST)
__ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Great idea, Fran... -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:55:14 (EST)

Salam -:- Yikies -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:25:09 (EST)
__ salsa -:- What?? -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:45:32 (EST)
__ __ }) -:- What do you mean What? -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 08:29:35 (EST)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- irony -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:50:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ [Blank] -:- Re: irony -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 18:56:58 (EST)

AJW -:- FA, Wozappenin? (ot) -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 05:57:08 (EST)
__ gerry -:- The glitch -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 12:12:45 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Hi Gerry.(ot) -:- Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 18:57:23 (EST)

Catweasel -:- Enough Mr Patrick Conlon!! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 04:50:44 (EST)
__ JohnT -:- Hey! Cac-sleasle !! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:40:33 (EST)
__ __ CW -:- Poor fellow -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:55:29 (EST)
__ __ __ Cult Patrol -:- ^^^^ CAC-HEAD ^^^^ -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 02:53:56 (EST)
__ Anarchist -:- Ner ner, ner ner ner -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 08:56:00 (EST)
__ ignorant -:- whats a cac? NT -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:33:12 (EST)
__ __ JohnT -:- What's that smell?! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:31:03 (EST)
__ __ __ CW -:- It's a 'Lonely Guy' -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:58:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cult patrol -:- ^^^^ CYBERSTALKER! ^^^^ [nt] -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 02:49:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave }( -:- This post is of great importance -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 21:47:36 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Catweazle you are a complete Twat. -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:18:16 (EST)
__ __ Nottingham Bunnie -:- Thanks Anth that made me LOL! (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 07:53:49 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Ghosts have to sue in ghost courts and,... -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 05:00:47 (EST)
__ __ CW -:- Re: Ghosts have to sue in ghost courts and,... -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:50:44 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Speaking from the Chair -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 12:31:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Arnold Catweasel -:- ())()) I'll be back!! ())()):) -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:23:13 (EST)

Loaf -:- The Bridge of assumptions -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 02:33:13 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- personal responsibility is the key -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:58:26 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Re: ordinary middle age LOL -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:45:52 (EST)
__ AJW -:- The Living Teacher -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:43:27 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: The Living Teacher -:- Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 18:05:32 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Loafie, you amaze me -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 04:18:57 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- Great post, Pat - thanks -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:55:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, Katie -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:24:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I know the feeling Pat -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 22:17:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Those ''little drops of mercy'' -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 05:26:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Take care of yourself, Pat (w/Kleenex, of course) -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:10:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- and damn the cacweasels, Katie -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:33:09 (EST)
__ __ Loaf -:- Re: Loafie, you amaze me -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 07:49:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Loafie, sometimes the convoluted writings are.... -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:29:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Thanks Pat -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:50:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- You didn't know we get paid to post? -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:34:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- You can't even joke about that around here! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:14:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What?? We DON'T???! -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:11:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Be careful, Jim -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 10:50:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- That's called sweat equity -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:59:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- But the cacweasels make so many typos -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:46:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: You didn't know we get paid to post? -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:18:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ spammer -:- I want my dollars! Here are my words! -:- Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 03:37:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Not one typo - check is in the mail [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 04:14:01 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Yanks ? Help needed for translation -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 23:47:29 (EST)
__ JohnT -:- Yoram Weiss -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 16:46:46 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Great rap song, JohnT! -:- Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 17:12:50 (EST)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Thanks to you Pat ! -:- Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 16:12:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Nothing immediately at hand, John -:- Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 17:28:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- He came, he talked, he deconstucted ! -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 14:32:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Careful, JohnT, I may take you up on that -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 16:40:35 (EST)
__ Barbara -:- GOP -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 23:56:08 (EST)
__ __ Inside Edition -:- Re: GOP -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 00:05:11 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Thank you guys (nt) -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 00:44:58 (EST)

PatC and Chuck -:- To all CAC victims: report to police -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:04:10 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Well this is more like it -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:23:57 (EST)
__ __ SC -:- Oh so clever Patrick Conmanon -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 01:15:00 (EST)
__ __ __ salsa -:- shuffling you away.... -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:41:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Hi Salsa [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:49:05 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Put your money where your mouth is SC. -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:29:49 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Your post was spam, Roupell -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 01:27:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- You manipulative bag of shit Conlon -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 04:44:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- You IDIOT! People are not cyberstalkers .. -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:26:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Very well said -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:06:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: You manipulative bag of shit Conlon -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 07:52:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Got a minute SC?? -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:37:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Is that all the thanks I get, Mr Roupell -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 04:49:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- LOL -:- Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 09:41:10 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Well this is more like it -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:38:03 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- You got it! -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:49:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Pat, please call me NOW -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:42:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Will do so in about ten minutes [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:43:41 (EST)


Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:31:16 (EST)
From: Gallowa' Hills
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I find this really difficult
Message:
I think it's over a year now since I first looked at ex-premie org, and at various forums. Since then I have felt that I'm not really a premie any more, but neither am I an ex. I can't dismiss what I've read here - but I find it unbelievably hard to turn against Maharaji, because, after all, getting Knowledge (30 years ago) really did turn my life about. Life had basically been shit before, because, far too often to make life bearable, I felt like I was shit. And following Maharaji really did make me feel better - I gradually learned to 'appreciate life'. I changed in a lot of ways that I think have been to my real benefit. And it was slow, it felt like it was a long struggle, it felt like it was a real worthwhile life journey, making real progress towards real good stuff.
I would say that, particularly in the early days, many of the premies I encountered seemed like really very fine people indeed. I found them really inspiring. Association with people like that made me feel the best things - that trying to serve a loving god was an aspiration I could try to live by, and that what that implied was that my life should basically be about trying to cultivate and live up to what in buddhism might be called the bodhisattva ideals, and so on. It just seemed like the best thing on offer. And through the years it always seemed that it was obvious that that was what being a premie was all about.
So I have had a great sense of loyalty towards Maharaji, and have found it really hard to switch to seeing the whole business as 'cult membership'.
So hard that I haven't done it. But, believe me, I am not posting here as an apologist.
As I said at the begining I find this really really difficult.
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 15:59:42 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: chassprague@yahoo.com
To: Gallowa' Hills
Subject: Fence sitting and Premie progress...
Message:
Hi Gallowa.

I expect you'll sit on the fence till you are ready to get off. I for one, won't try and push you. I had very similar feelings myself once, and I did not want anyone trying to push me, so I can respect that.

When I recieved K, I had survived a serious construction accident where a pile of two tons of steel girders fell over on top of me. I was crushed physically, mentally and spiritually.

I met up with a very warm, friendly and fun-loving group of premies in the Haight-Ashbury. I ended up recieving Knowledge. Learning to sit quietly and observe my breath, has helped me deal with my fear of death, and to become more calm and peaceful in my life, and more patient. I don't deny that there were some benefits to being a premie. I have always maintained that people who have stuck with M and K for so long do so because they do experience something. I don't question that.

The only thing I would question is, how much of what you experience as good in your life really has to do with Maharaji, in a way you couldn't have without him?

Belief is a very powereful thing. Gurus have often used this power of belief to get people to attribute to them experiences that actually have more to do with the devotee and his faith than with the Master who takes credit for it.

Have you ever read the writings of Faqir Chand? He is respected in India as one of the most ''Honest'' of gurus. He talks a lot about how many gurus misuse their power to enrich themselvs, by encouraging their followers to attribute to the Guru experiences that in reality have nothing to do with the Guru. He maintains that a devotee can have a guru who is a complete fake, a criminal even, and yet the devotee, by his FAITH in the guru, can still have an incredible experience. This is because the faith of the devotee is creating the experience, not the Guru. You may find it interesting to read.

All of us, as we get older, usually get wiser too. How much of the wisdom that you have gained over the years, came from simply growing older and wiser as we all do? How much of what Maharaji says is really unique? At one point I actually started to compair M. to other gurus objectively, and found that M was not teaching anything original, and that even his secret 'techiniques' were simple yoga, that is much more enjoyable when taught properly by a good yoga teacher.

I was shocked to discover that what M has been teaching is really ''Bhakti''. There is a lot of background on the EPO website about the religion that M's knowlege is derived from. I found that understanding where it came from, and how M has altered it and is using it now, helped me to separate what aspects of Knowlege helped me and why, and what things did not, and helped me to see through and discard the religion I was unknowingly indoctrinated into.

I think I am just saying, I know and don't doubt that you have had some good experiences being a premie. I believe you. You just may want to consider, that most of that came from your faith and your own effort. M may have said some beautiful things over the years, but they were not original to him, and unfortunately he has mixed some beautiful truisms with a lot of self-serving ideas too.

I would suggest carefully considering the information on EPO, starting with what interests you the most. There is a lot you have not been told as a premie, and it can take a while to absorb it all. I read EPO over a period of two years, before I sorted it out sufficiantly in my mind to be at peace with it. If you want to talk about any of it, many people here would be willing to do that with you. Feel free to email me if you like.

Best regards,

- Chuck S.

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Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 08:11:17 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Great post Chuck [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 21:35:24 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Chuck:a Rajneeshee told me...
Message:
The other day I ran into an old friend who was a follower of rajneesh, the guru who lived in Oregon.

She said that she honored and respected and loved many of her experiences with the rajneesh group, and some of those experiences were the best of her life.
She also talked about how devastating it was to her, but ultimately liberating, when she discovered that he was a total fraud.

So on one hand she is admitting that her guru was a total fraud and hoaxster, but also honoring her past experiences with him, which she said were some of the best of her life.
I asked her how that could be, and she said that it had a lot more to do with herself and her faith more than with him...

Seems to support what you said....

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 10:30:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gallowa' Hills
Subject: It's OK to be on the fence
Message:
Sometimes just accepting that it's OK to be where you're at makes it easier - sometimes it makes it easier to change, make up your mind, or whatever.

Although we make a lot of jokes here about throwing out the baby AND the bathwater, I think it's important to acknowledge that there WERE good things about being a premie for most of us. Even though I'm an ex-premie, I have very good memories about most of the premies I knew when I was a premie - they helped me more than they know, and I'll always be grateful for that. And although there are certain premies I've encountered on this forum that I don't think are very good people (although who can tell on the internet), I have met at least one current premie that I think is a really great person and who is a good friend.

Your post is appreciated - I know it must have been very hard to write.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 23:49:22 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Gallowa' Hills
Subject: You are beginning to see
Message:
the chinks in the armor, this is a good thing, keep after it GH. Your vision and ability to discriminate is still intact.

The best thing that I did was to get out here on the boards and hash it out with some of the others on the forum who had made it out before me.

Mainly just concentrate on telling your story, be honest and inquiring and you will find many answers and much help here in clarifying your past 30 years. Believe me, there is a huge difference in what you thought you were getting into then as opposed to what is really going on presently with m and the Cult.

You may encounter opposing opinions, so what, these are just words, and no matter what they say just remember this, They can't eat ya! so jump right in test the water.

It was a great time 30 years ago, I was there too, the people, the community, the idealizm. We were young and impressionable, many of us as easy mark with no spiritual direction or a disdain for conventional religion and or/society.

I found it difficult to acknowledge that I was in a cult because I let the cult tell me that we are not and this is not a cult. I repeated that so often to myself that I believed it. Yet I thought the moonies were a cult, the scientologists were a cult, the eckancar folks were a cult, the krishna conciousness people were a cult but not me.

Yet I lived in a premie house, spent much time at the ashram, was devoted to doing service and propagating the message, I adopted the look and demeanor of my peers, (the suit and tie, pasted on blissed out smile) and I still believed that I was not a member of a cult.

I would go to the krishna temple for the sunday feast to eat the fabulous vegetarian offering there and to slip in some satsang to the other feasters in hopes of recruiting them away from that cult.

Then I would go back to my ashram, bow down in front of my masters picture, just in time my mindwashing (satsang) sing and dance with my flaming tray of burning butter, and retire back to the same sort of cultish controlled environment that I could easily see the krishna's were being subjected to, but not me.

Over the years the basic premise has not changed that much, it is not nor never has been dependant so much on what it looks like on the outside, there were revisions but the outside appearance has always been the hallmark of the anticult explanation. We looked and dressed normal, had normal jobs, blended right in with society, how could we be in a cult and look so normal?

Well the answer in part is, it is what is understood and imprinted on the inside that creates the control that ties one in with a cult consciousness, not the overall external appearance. A spiritual slight of hand technique, a smoke and mirrors effect to keep the illusion going, that being, this is not a cult, because it doesn't look like one.

M pulls off this trick so well that we can actually be in a cult and pretend that we are not. After all, that is what we were told to think and were emotionally invested in being loyal to and obeying the rules of the pack. It goes deep over the years and the wool has been pulled way far down over the eyes for so long that we don't even question the cult issue, we don't even consider it and that is what makes it work. Our agreement and our loyalty are the key element in perpetrating the myth.

Keep after it, you are on to something, don't cave in and run away, come back and find out more

Best Regards
Brian

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 05:50:10 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Brain I hope you save this post
Message:
as part of your Journey. Great stuff.
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 05:56:01 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Oops, sorry, Brian, now I called you Brain
Message:
First I called you Richard. Next I'll forget my own name. In fact I once did 23 years ago. I was very high from giving satsang and had to answer the phone and I couldn't remember my name. Anyway, I know you will forgive your fellow AARP member. I haven't figured out how to change the subject title. I don't think it's possible.
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 13:40:53 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: PatC, the edit feature
Message:
Pat,

I frequently edit every aspect of my posts, including the Subject, so it is possible. Great for revisionisism like 'No, I never said that!'

Richard

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 13:49:21 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Richard, the edit feature
Message:
No matter how much I have tried I can't seem to get the subject line to change on the main page. It changes once you open the message. But thanks, I'll give it another go.
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 13:55:57 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Just tried and it failed
Message:
Pat,

I just tried changing the subject in my post above yours and I got a big blue screen saying the change did not register. This did work until yesterday so maybe a bug has popped up.

Richard

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 14:04:23 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Edit feature currently whacky
Message:
Pat,

I just posted the above message, 'Just tried and it failed'. I mistakenly put PatC in the Posted by:, went back and edited it, clicked View message as it stands, and it said 'Posted by Richard', but it still says 'Posted bt PatC' in the message list.

Apparently the edit feature has gone haywire for the moment.

Richard, who will need to proof before he pushes Post Reply

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 14:45:07 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Edit feature currently whacky
Message:
You can say that again. I see what you mean. I just tried to correct a typo in a post above and it failed.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 21:16:20 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Gallowa' Hills
Subject: Welcome Gallowa' Hills
Message:
I felt every word of your post. I started posting here less than a year ago after lurking (reading but not posting) for several years. So I would never try to push someone further than they are ready for. During that time I attended a couple of Long Beach programs and enjoyed my old friends and nostalgic familiar feeling. But the cognitive dissonance between how M was presenting himself and the 'body language' of the event itself became too huge to ignore. What M was portraying was a teacher of meditation far removed from those old Hindu concepts. All the while the huge photo galleries, background instrumental Arti, slow-motion devotional poetry videos and between-the-lines message was 'I am the master and you must be devoted to me'. The feeling was good but I could not reconcile the mixed messages.

Welcome to the forum and please do not think your contribution is invalid if you are not anti-M. You certainly can remember your past participation with fondness, as I do, because your intention was genuine. Nothing M has done or not done can change the fact that you were the one who held up your end of the bargain. In my opinion, that geniuneness must be honored and respected because it is who you will always live with. Notwithstanding, one looks at things with a more discerning eye upon waking to this new reality that all is not as it seemed.

I'm not here to look for a reason to hate M or justify some pain I may feel. I am reconciled with my years of involvement and only want to tell the truth as I see it so others may decide for themselves.

Here's hoping you continue to find strength on your path to choose what is best for yourself.

Richard

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 04:56:26 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Welcome Mr. Hills
Message:
I too felt your post deeply, because it had that sensitive feeling of someone on the edge of two realities. I often feel like that myself, although not about the cult, which I left 17 years ago.

I really appreciated your expression of your sincerity and idealism in being involved, and I also believe you that the whole thing actually turned your life around when you first got into it. I can certainly say the same thing about my 12 year involvement, with the additional message that LEAVING once again turned my life around, for the better. It's just very shocking to find that you are being internally guided in a completely different direction, and that, perhaps, it feels like the same internal guidance that got you into the whole thing in the first place. This was how it was for me.

I recently read a scientific paper on how water always meanders when going from A to B--even on a laboratory-tested smooth surface, it doesn't go in a straight line unless a jet is added. My experience of life has been that life meanders. What was right before is quite different from what is right now for me. Perhaps the path is a spiral, because I do seem to pass some of the same landmarks from time to time as things change, but I feel as though I am expanding my experience, overall.

For me it wasn't necessary to do very much rejecting of MJ in order to leave, because I was being drawn forward by other very exciting things I got involved with. I think for a while I thought I could somehow keep a foot in his camp and a foot in all the new things I was doing, but it soon became clear that he was quite violently opposed, emotionally, to premies exploring other spiritual and psychological paths, which was what I was doing. His tendency to portray his path as being the only true way soon seemed ludicrous and spiritually fascist to me. Also, I saw it causing harm to people who were getting shipwrecked and not fully helped by 'Knowledge.' So I left.

Good luck to you as you pick your way through the shoreline between realities. Please take your time and don't be bullied by either camp. It isn't about camps.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 21:11:40 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Gallowa' Hills
Subject: It just seemed like the....
Message:
...best thing on offer.

You've raised a deep can of worms with this one GH.

I know what you're talking about. You can't ditch 30 yrs of your life as being a total waste & nor should you.

I think you have to look beyond your own experiences & take on board those of others in order to make sense of what we have all been caught up in. Sounds like you've been doing that. Making sense of it all is what the forum is all about. Your post is impossible to answer because...I'm pissed(English)

The bottom line however comes down to 'Who is Guru Maharaj ji'.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:44:01 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Gallowa' Hills
Subject: Hi Gall. No one expects you to become an ex
Message:
One day you will see that you could have gotten the same (or better) benefits from studying gyanyoga under a decent modest teacher and M's socalled words of wisdom are commonplace and you would have read them elsewhere and probably much better explained and you will also see that any improvement in your life was because of your own efforts.

That day that see that Rawat was really unnecessary as well as (in many cases for those who killed themselves because of his irresponsible teaching) very psychologically damaging, you will realize that he has been running a money-making cult.

It is not necessary to become an ex. I have done so because I believe that Rawat is a dangerous and greedy fool. All that's necessary is for you to be happy independently without the crutch of something external such as a master.

It is not easy to stop being in love with the carefully orchestrated persona called Maharaji - especially if all he has been to you is a distant dot on a stage or a carefully edited vision on a video.

The reality is a lot different.

Anyway, welcome and I wish you health and happiness.

Patrick Conlon,

San Francisco.

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 04:51:18 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Hi Gall. No one expects you to become an ex
Message:
When I first came here I found all the stuff I read difficult to believe. I was a bog standard premie and like Pat says M was just a distant dot on a stage or a poished performer on a screen. Now I have talked with people who actually knew him and have been able to look at things from more that one angle. I see that much of what I attributed to him was really me. I think we diminish ourselves and our power because of the unbalanced relationship we had with the guru. Anyway welcome glad to know you.
Magiclara (Not at all Magic)
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 07:24:32 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Gail.. She IS magic..
Message:
take no notice of her.

Loaf
(not at all bready)

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 08:25:12 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Gail.. She IS magic..
Message:
But not ethereal. You are bad to me Loaf.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:12:24 (EST)
From: Gallowa' Hills
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Hi Gall. No one expects you to become an ex
Message:
thanks for not blasting me! Or trying to convince me that i must get off the fence NOW!
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 13:07:14 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: Loafji@yahoo.com
To: Gallowa' Hills
Subject: Ignore Jim
Message:
and ignore anyone else who pressurised you one way or the other.. even if they are tempting and seductive and on video.

Seriously, this process is delicate and personal and its nobody's business but your own. Take your time... email me if you want to natter privately.. but its nice to hear what you are saying.

Loaf

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 13:40:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Can you read, Loaf?
Message:
Just wondering.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:27:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gallowa' Hills
Subject: Get off the fence NOW!
Message:
Just kidding. Even rabid anti-cult attack dogs like me understand the difference between honest confusion, like yours, and dissembling apologist reivsionist cant from capitalist running dog roaders.

What was I talking about? Oh yeah, nap time.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:17:52 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Gallowa' Hills
Subject: Hi Gall, only you can do that
Message:
I'm not here to judge anyone or try to convince them. No one could do it for me. I had to do it for myself. I've got to go to work now but I hope I can chat with you later. If anyone tries to bully just give me a call. Okay? :)
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 04:12:18 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Good Points
Message:
You make some very good points. Knowledge made me feel successful, and it also made the goofiness that had been my life turn from a big negative into something positive. Like all the bad had just been me on hold until the lord got here to make it all right via satsang, service, meditation and darshan.

I remember an initiator telling us once that a premie's parent angrily asked M why was he stealing away her's and other's children?
The reply was along the lines of- what was HE giving us that they hadn't? Implying real love.

It comes down to you trusting your instincts. You don't have to throw any part of yourself away now that you know these facts.
You are you. It is indeed hard to come to terms with all this, and I wish you every kindness possible. -Vicki

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 09:37:51 (EST)
From: Gallowa' Hills
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: the responses from all of you
Message:
Thankyou
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 12:07:41 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To:

Subject: Happy Birthday to Me!())(()(()
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 11:58:14 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To:

Subject: Thanks for the Great Wishes...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 03:45:28 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To:

Subject: Happy Birthday to YOU!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 05:00:30 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: Happy Birthday to YOU!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:38:50 (EST)
From: ())())())())())())())())())())())
Email: None
To:

Subject: ())())())())())())())())())())())())
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:36:22 (EST)
From: ())())())())())())())())())())())
Email: None
To:

Subject: ())())())())())())())())())())())())!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:43:09 (EST)
From: }) }) })
Email: None
To:

Subject: })})})})})})})})})})
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:16:10 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: Happy Birthday to Me!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:49:45 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: Happy Birthday to Me!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:53:45 (EST)
From: ulf
Email: None
To:

Subject: happy Birthday
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:03:44 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To:

Subject: Happy Birthday, Cynthia
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:19:15 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: Happy Birthday to Me!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:11:36 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To:

Subject:

Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:08:36 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To:

Subject: Happy Birthday Cynthia!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:20:33 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: Happy Birthday to Me!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:14:14 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To:

Subject: Happy Birthday Cynthia
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:15:06 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To:

Subject: Happy Birthday Cynthia
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 12:48:16 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: Happy Birthday to Me!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:43:56 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To:

Subject: HEY HOTBOARDS! Hey Anth!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 12:28:32 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To:

Subject: You're turning into a a techie Pat.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 13:46:46 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Well, I know about the megahurts, Anth
Message:
That's when your hard-drive crashes irrevocably and you haven't backed up your latest three months of work on CD.

So many of my 20-something customers are computer geeks that I have had to re-write the menu thus:

Appetizer - Pentium 600 megahertz processor

Main Course - 80 gigabyte hard-drive

Dessert - 240 megabytes of RAM

But, when they come in with the stoned muchies, they always want too much sugar with everything and that just gums up the works.

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Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 19:00:02 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Do they have meat in Pat?
Message:
That's when your hard-drive crashes irrevocably and you haven't backed up your latest three months of work on CD.

So many of my 20-something customers are computer geeks that I have had to re-write the menu thus:

Appetizer - Pentium 600 megahertz processor

Main Course - 80 gigabyte hard-drive

Dessert - 240 megabytes of RAM

But, when they come in with the stoned muchies, they always want too much sugar with everything and that just gums up the works.


---

It could give a whole new meaning to the expression, 'My hard drive is fucked.'

Anth, time for bed.

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 00:29:36 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Do they have meat in Pat?
Message:
I've seen a pic on the net of a guy doing that to a hoover but not a computer unless you count the net exhibitionist playing with his mouse while holding onto his joystick.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:18:53 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To:

Subject: News? Not to me:=(
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:25:08 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To:

Subject: You deserve a gold medal, John
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:45:59 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To:

Subject: SEE! this message appeared here and ....
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:50:37 (EST)
From: NewsFlash
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji at Hans Jyanti Declares!!!
Message:
November 9...India..Maharaji Speaking in Front of Thousands Of Devotees Declared Victory in His Mission Of Bringing Peace to this World.
'Many times I Came Before, But This Time I have Made More Money then Ever Before. There has never been a Time when the Lord of All Creation does not Take a Human Body and Now Finally the World Knows: Who isn't GOD Anymore!!' He Then Stated that He is Retiring To Amaroo to Spend his Remaining Days Drinking Cognac smoking Marlboros and assisting the local Rabbit population in their rapid Spiritual Evolution by using them as Target Practice. To the Delight of The Crowd, Maharaji named....Jagdeo as the NEW Lord Of The Universe...Maharaji Declared 'Dear Premies..Why are you Crying??? Dont you Know Satguru Never Dies, He Just Makes as Much Money Off his Premies as He Can and then Hides. Look There is a NEW Satguru Amoungst You. One with the SAME High Moral and Ethical Standards that You Worshipped in Your Previous Guru Maharaji!!..I give you the Former Mahatma Jagdeo Now SHRI JAGDEO MAHARAJ...'
Speaking under conditions of Anonymity, Monica Lewis confirmed that Maharaji had been hinting of Retiring for Years.'We kind of saw this Coming. Bringing Peace to this World has been a Tremendous Strain On Him, and, well, He has been suffering some performance problems for quite some time.'
In a Related Story, David Smith held a News Conference in Chicago naming Himself as the REAL New Maharaji saying 'Everyone..The First Western Satguru has Come..No more Mr. Nice Guy....Recognize Him..Adore Him..Obey Him...'
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:41:29 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: NewsFlash
Subject: That's very funny stuff }) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:46:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Reposting Vicki's 'BEST' post from below
Message:
Note: I am doing this for two reasons: (1)it was a great post that I'm not sure everyone got to read, and (2)I don't want to read arguments between SC, CW and others, which have been pretty dominant. No shame, no blame, just a re-post - thanks to Vicki.

Vicki wrote:
Elan Vital inadvertantly sent me to EPO. I was on First Class, checking in to see what
needed doing, and came across a blurb that said if anyone needed counseling from the
disruption at the Mainz (sp) program, they should call said number and talk with instructors.

Well, that put a big question in my curious brain and so I went looking to find out what could
have possibly happened that people would need counseling. No where on the net could I find
anything so I ended up here and found it being discussed on the Forum. I started reading the
EPO site and got my socks blown off.

I would check in to see what ya all were discussing and I remember feeling like I wanted to
say something, but didn't dare. I just wanted to talk but I didn't even know what to say, how to
say it or if I could say anything at all. The more days that went by and I kept logging on to the
Forum, the more amazed I was that people were actually so open. I finally couldn't stand it
anymore and got brave, jumped in and honestly it felt like I had hit a button to detenate
myself when I actually posted. It was terrifying.

That posting was so very hard. You all were seasoned, had been through this rocky journey,
were rock solid in your convictions, and here I was, this nearly 30 year pwk that was dutifully
living the life and times of Maharaji's World. For those of you that weren't there, that was a big
buzz word at a Long Beach event.....the world of knowledge. There's this world but then
there's the other world, the world of knowledge.......

For me, it was like jumping into a blender and having someone hit frappe. I can't explain what
it's like to one day be a Erika whats her name and the next, sitting bug eyed at the comp
feeling like calling 911 to bring a straight jacket, and take me where? Where the hell does
one go to recover, recapture, reorganize a life that flew out the window in less than a blink of
an eye?

I couldn't call my best friends who had watched me join up way back when and thought I'd
lost all my marbles.

I couldn't call up my parents who had watched me march off to every corner of the world to
see M, join an ashram and leave behind everything that had ever meant anything to me.

I couldn't tell my husband that the greatest thing in my life, which I introduced him to, was a
big scam.

I couldn't tell my children, who I had spoon fed on knowledge and now wanted knowledge for
themselves, that it was all possibly one big lie.

I couldn't call up the premies I have spent these years with and blow their world up along with
mine.

I couldn't put an APB out over First Class and ask for clarification, well maybe I should have.

The point is, as my world was falling apart, I really had no where to turn but here. Honestly.

Finding a psychiatrist and to even start to go into this was too much to even contemplate.

Nope, you guys were it. You didn't know you were it, but you were. Sanity in the face of my
dwindling grip on the most intimate part of my soul.

Trying to sort through EPO was daunting, but coming to the Forum was real. You were real
people talking. And as much as I needed the history, I needed real people at the most fragile
time in my life.
I've been through a lot in my life, a whole lot as a matter of fact, but not one thing has
knocked me more for a loop than finding out my perfect master, my living lord, my reason for
having a human life make sense, was a....well you all know what goes here.

So what would have made it easier for me? I don't know, something between recent ex's (too
scared to give my real name and email) and the forum. Although, I feel if people on the forum
had known what my state of being was, they would have been gentle. But it doesn't help in
those first days to be told it will get better. It's true, but the feelings are so raw, honestly I just
needed some tlc and chai. That chai thread was one of my favorites.

My reason for starting this discussion was because if it is as John says, then it would be
great if we could update just a little to make it easier for the ones he said want to post but
aren't strong enough yet. I am eternally grateful for everyone here and for the EPO site.
It would have been a long, long, long lonely road to try and go it alone.

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 06:07:22 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: That's great Vicki, but...
Message:
...I hope you're not using soya milk in your chai.

Welcome to the Free World, where you can say and think what you feel, without having to consult that little chubby bloke dressed in a pilot suit, smelling of cognac, and lying to his wife, within.

Hooray, you're free again.

Anth the cardomon pod.

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 13:39:29 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: That's great Vicki, but...
Message:
No soya for me....can't stand the healthy stuff, gives me a nasty headache. No tofu either. Nope, give me the full blast deal!

Still trying to seperate my life from the world of knowledge that was super-glued to my body and soul.

Hey can we start a thread on how to make the proper pot of tea and the winner gets a trip to London? Too OT? Darn!

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:08:39 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re:Vicki's BEST...should this be...
Message:
put in someplace for new forum readers to read and digest?

It is such a candid description of what has happened to so many people as they are exposed to unheard of information about m, and how they react.

I think it would be valuable if it were put in some place where it could easily be read by new readers/lurkers/posters.

Many people have described their first reaction to 'the other side' of m that is presented here as 'premie pornograhy' at first, 'mind boggling and riveting' later, and finally, 'instumental' in re-evaluating their position with the whole thing.

The power of information is enormous....in helping all people to see both sides of the story and letting them make up their own minds, a great service is being performed....

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:06:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: Yes, for sure
Message:
I agree. Vicki really said it so well. Why, even a hardened ol' ex like myself felt a little somethin' somethin'. Can't remember what now but somethin'.

No, honestly, Vicki could spell it out even more. It's quite a predicament the withdrawing premie's in. She really captures that.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:11:31 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: This should be put with Rich Mandrake's
Message:
... absolutely best Forum post. Maybe there should be a category for recent exes experiencing the FINAL DRIP. Of course, since people do not know our Anthian-coined lingo, it should be called something like A PREMIES' LAST STRAW, or THE PAINFUL FIRST STEP, that says something like 'several new ex-premies speak about their raw and painful exit process.'

Definitely, we need a category for this stuff. Some of us did the reverse final straw, like me and Deb, where we were gone for years and never saw it for what it was, totally. But many premies coming now are just seeing it for what it is, and they need to see what others "in their shoes" are saying. You may find there are other posts, such as by folks like Peg, that could be gathered for this category.

If any recent exes remember a particular post that outlined their process, similar to what Vicki is talking about perhaps you could email J-M and point it out to him to consider for the "Best of Forum" compilation on this topic.

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:37:10 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: This should be put with Rich Mandrake's
Message:
Jims posting ,, made a lot of sense to me when i first came here
Two years ago
I needed to hear a clear ,, anti m voice

No new age thinking involvet ,, so much commen sense
And he made me trust my own commen sense

offcourse i know and understand now that he is to much for some people
and i know also that we are not the same

but for me ,,, it was , and is very real
and it is importent , that we here all understand , that,,,
different words, for different people

some like it hot ,, and some like it cold....

no one have the rigth way of telling the story

Best wishes Ulf

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:53:12 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Vicki's reply to Desert Woman
Message:
stands out for me ..not exactly last drip but about the transition and again very passionate and speaking to premies on the brink. I'll check if its still here.

peg

no its not, I'll look in the archives

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:19:06 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: No winzip can someoe else find it? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:55:14 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Great idea, Fran...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:25:09 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Yikies
Message:
I have done the undoable and visited the last caca site. All Joes fault. What a hoot. Are those guys serious? Am glad I did not check the rest,

'threatening to throw leflets from the air', what will that come under?

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:45:32 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: What??
Message:
liar
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 08:29:35 (EST)
From: })
Email: None
To: salsa
Subject: What do you mean What?
Message:
Liar??
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:50:33 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: })
Subject: irony
Message:
I think Salsa did not spot you were being ironic when you said it was all Joe's fault.

We all know it's Jim's fault for not being nice enough to Cac-heads. That's why they want to be horrid to ex-premies.

I hope that has cleared things up.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 18:56:58 (EST)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: irony
Message:
posting is becoming more complex. I only went to caca because Joe posted the link in a thread below. I think am becoming a bit rusty cause am posting once or twice a month. Thanks for you assistance anyway. Of for a week or two.

Salam

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 05:57:08 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: FA, Wozappenin? (ot)
Message:
Hi FA,

Just bringing to your attention a slight software glitch I noticed this morning. I posted a response, below, to the repost of Catweazles pathetic, damp squib, criticism of John's stuff,and at the same time it posted itself in a thread further down, of Nigels, something about Nogbad the Bad. The time of posting is the same on both messages. Ooooooer. Freaky eh?

Anth the Systems Analyst.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 12:12:45 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The glitch
Message:
Yeah, Anth this same glitch has happened a couple of times. The register gets messed up or something. I think Selene knows what it is.
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Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 18:57:23 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hi Gerry.(ot)
Message:
did you get my email about the forum intro?

anth on the edge of England.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 04:50:44 (EST)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Enough Mr Patrick Conlon!!
Message:
You and the lovely M/sDeadboring have slipped too easily into the use of my non deplume and derivations there-of to blame just about everything bar the world Trade Centre disaster on me. I warn you once. I am not involved with the CAC sites and if you continue to libel me, either directly or by imputation I will sue your arse off. I am not joking. As well do not attempt to slander me to the IP. Once and once only
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:40:33 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Hey! Cac-sleasle !!
Message:
So sue then. Put up or shut up. Better yet, just shove off. Go away and worship your Useless Master, the fraudulent Prempal Rawat of Malibu.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:55:29 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Poor fellow
Message:
Do you think I would bother to tell you? What was that sound? A gnat farting? Ohhhh It's john t, 'the lonely guy'.............
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 02:53:56 (EST)
From: Cult Patrol
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: ^^^^ CAC-HEAD ^^^^
Message:
Cac-heads refers to people who, while remaining anonymous themselves, use the Web in an attempt to damage and hurt identifiable people by defaming them on the Web.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 08:56:00 (EST)
From: Anarchist
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Ner ner, ner ner ner
Message:
Catweasel is a CACyweasel. CACy CACy CACweasel. So there!!!
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:33:12 (EST)
From: ignorant
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: whats a cac? NT
Message:
blah
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:31:03 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: ignorant
Subject: What's that smell?!
Message:
Cack is British slang for faeces, dung, stools, shit, poo, number two, doo doos, stinky logs. In other words, excrement. It derives from Old English cakken, which in turn came from the Latin cacare.

CAC was a tendentious and libellous site anonymously put up by premies, it would seem with Rawat's implicit approval. It anonymously attacked named persons and published defamatory and libellous material about those named ex-premies. One particularly dizzying piece of nastiness was to publish a picture of an ex with his daughter, implying it was a picture of a pedophile with victim. The site was called Citizens Against Cyberstalking (hence the CAC) and was doubtless put up by someone unaware of the international subtleties of his own language.

The Brits here immediately started using the term Cac-heads to refer to people who, while remaining anonymous, use the Web in an attempt to damage and hurt ex-premies by naming and defaming them on the Web.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:58:02 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: It's a 'Lonely Guy'
Message:
You sad,purposeless little man.
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 02:49:14 (EST)
From: Cult patrol
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: ^^^^ CYBERSTALKER! ^^^^ [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 21:47:36 (EST)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: This post is of great importance
Message:
CAC or rather the correct spelling, ''cack'' is (British) schoolboy slang for shit. I knew that when I was five. Also used is ''cacky'' as in ''Is that cacky on your shoe?''
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:18:16 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Catweazle you are a complete Twat.
Message:
Talk about paranoid.

How can anyone libel an imaginary character from children's fiction.

You fucking idiot.

Catweazle is a fucking scumbag cultslime who started the Gulf War, assasinated Princess Diana, and is recruiting for the Afghan army. He also carries several transmittable diseases and sells crack to 3 year olds. He is plotting to overthrow the Govt of Australia and install himself as dictator. He hasn't had a hard-on since 1972, when he saw Queen Elizabeth 2nd.

SUE ME FUCKWIT.

Anth Ginn.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 07:53:49 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunnie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Thanks Anth that made me LOL! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 05:00:47 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Ghosts have to sue in ghost courts and,...
Message:
....they went out of fashion with the New England spiritualists in 1880.

If you do not condemn the CAC attacks (but instead gloat and threaten to keep records of messages posted here to ADD to further CAC attacks) you are not only condoning the attempt to silence critics of Rawat by intimidation sites but in fact abetting them.

I think you fail to realize that I am entitled to criticize whom I please including your massa. You also have that right but you are not entitiled to do so here regardless of your IT talents. Your welcome here is contingent on your influence and credibilty.

But you've been enslaved in a cult of two (a folie a deux with your massa) for so long that you have forgotten how democracy works - by influence and credibilty. You have neither here and are no longer welcome.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:50:44 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Ghosts have to sue in ghost courts and,...
Message:
Naturally , I'm not referring to my non de plume Patty. You know exactly what I am talking about. Just try and give your amateur Dick Tracey efforts a rest. My spies tell me what questions you and the horseheads have been asking.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 12:31:38 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Speaking from the Chair
Message:
OK Cultweasel, you are not welcome here regardless of your ability to get around blocks. When I find out who you are and where your IP is I will surely send them a laundry list of complaints and quotes from your smarmy feral ass.

Stop posting here. Can that be any clearer?

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:23:13 (EST)
From: Arnold Catweasel
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: ())()) I'll be back!! ())()):)
Message:
Really?You might get a surprise when you do speak to the owners of the ISP.I might tell you to take your washing elsewhere.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 02:33:13 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Bridge of assumptions
Message:
I was posting a post to vicky down below when I started yabbering about something Nigel and I were talking about the other night... so I thought I would repost it in its own thread, cos its damn good interesting stuff !

Nige said something the other night about a leap of faith that PREMIES have to make.. and I realised that perhaps in the olden days this was much more apparant.. the Indian style was one of being explicit... say 'My Guru will show you God' with enough certainty... and the certainty itself will impress the listener who is made 'open' by their own lack of certainty.

Perhaps a definition of 'open' would be MOST revealing...

But nowadays..

What Maharaji does, most skillfully and also 'intelligently' (HA !)is to build a series of assumptions which carry a person from one place to another. 10 steps which WOULD constitute ONE leap of faith in the 1970s and early 80s when he the style and focus of his presentation was EXPLICIT.. but since then has become IMPLICIT:

We all need to feel happy. Agreed.
We all know that life should be enjoyed. Agreed.
The world is getting worse. Agreed.
We are all going to die one day. Agreed.
What happens before death is important. Agreed.
Books can only do so much. Agreed.
A Living Teacher can make something so much more alive. Agreed.
Life is not a dead subject. Agreed.
We all need to find help from time to time. Agreed
Maharaji can help. Agreed.

10 easy stages.

The illusion is that once you have 'bought into' those assumptions, you can undo them at a moments notice and walk away.. but it is like getting toothpaste back in its tube...

IF you question the final assumption 'maharaji can help' - you are questioning them all.. because he laid the path down.

If you question the final assumption, you are questioning your own 'heart's' judgement.

If you are questioning the judgement 'of your heart' - you are questioning THAT Feeling...and that is something nobody will do.. I WONT DO IT NOW !

That is because Questioning has become the enemy.The Illusion is that Questioning SEEMS to destroy the FEELING. It is disloyal.

Well let me tell ya folks... YOU CAN HAVE BOTH.

It takes a little bit of getting used to...but once you have crossed the bridge of assumptions you have to look at why a bridge was needed at all.

Fear of falling.

Once you start to truly OWN your experience (of Knowledge.. but also to some extent the whole bag of dirty laundry that has been unwashed in 20 years) - flying becomes an option.

No need of the old bridge.. and the two worlds... the blissful and the darshan soaked magic AND the independance of thought and relationship to our personalities which needs to be re-forged, can work together.

Its a tough one for a while.. but there is great treasure in having been on this journey... ordinary middle age never would have suited any of us really !

All the best

Loafie

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:58:26 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: personal responsibility is the key
Message:
Very well put loafie, Owning up to the responsibility of my own experience is the way that I have been handling the crossover from premie to ex-premie.

Accepting that M is an imposter was the easy part, letting go of the hopes and illusions that he could help me bridge the space between self and soul after so much indoctrination to the contrary was the more challenging.

Cleaning up and owning up to the dirty laundry that I personally perpetrated as a practicing cult member was and is the most difficult task yet.

It turns out that it is all just another illusion, he being the lord, M the inner guide, the master, whatever. It was like whenever he reinvented his purpose, I would just throw it on the internal compost pile and let it ferment with the rest of the concepts about him, the real rotting vegetables at work in my life.

You are right Loaf, questions about this process are the enemy, because questions open up the possibility for answers, real answers instead of the patented cult responses designed to create the ultimate result which is to stop the questioning.

Once one concedes that one is no longer worthy of asking questions or that there are no more valid questions, then one begins the slippery slide into the cult consciousness. Once initiated a whole new identity game presents itself, alienate old friends, develop new cult relationships and see how far up the pecking order one can get or much of a cult elitist one can aspire to.

It is easy to see how this thing continues, the cult elitist or member has a huge emotional investment in keeping it going, M has that and everything else in his life riding on the myth. It works out perfectly, M needs to control people, these people need to be controlled, told what to do, what to think (or not to think)
and the match is made.

The myth as I have come to realize it and you characterized so well is that I don't need anyone or anything inside or outside of my life and mind to fix me or to make me 'perfect'.

I arrived on this earth with all of the necessary parts to function quite correctly thank you. I am a complete package just as I am, I am not a factory defect that needs some tinkering about to get me operating at the acceptable level of someone else's, or some groups dictates.

When I fail to accept responsibility for my own assembly and I give that choice over to another power, that is when I lose my ability to
find and live my own 'no control needed existence'.

Some instruction necessary maybe, but just paying attention to what is going on in my life will suffice. Middle age holds a whole new and exciting journey born out of a not so ordinary extraction from years of cult indoctrination.

I consider myself extremely lucky to have grown up, and survived the follies and magical thinking of my youthful years

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:45:52 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: ordinary middle age LOL
Message:
Loaf,

Your bridge outline is astute, but I laughed out loud at your rather poingnant closing remark.

'Its a tough one for a while.. but there is great treasure in having been on this journey... ordinary middle age never would have suited any of us really ! '

At least we have bizarre stories to tell in middle age. Cheers, mate!

Richard

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:43:27 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: The Living Teacher
Message:
Hiyer loafie,

I love the expression, 'Living Teacher.'

Did anyone ever learn anything from a corpse?

Anth the eyes wide open.

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Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 18:05:32 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: The Living Teacher
Message:
Hiyer loafie,

I love the expression, 'Living Teacher.'

Did anyone ever learn anything from a corpse?

Anth the eyes wide open.


---

Most of our knowledge of human anatomy was learnt from corpses.

John the literal

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 04:18:57 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Loafie, you amaze me
Message:
By that I mean your writing is like a maze - to me at least. When I first start to read it, it seems so convoluted and then suddenly I see your point and it all makes sense. Great stuff!

I meant to tell you this after your last post about exiting the cult and how it was not that easy for you. Well, it has not been easy for me either. I've even said that many a time to the resident (they think) cacweasels as a means of attempting to make them understand why people are so angry and upset.

The cult apologists' answer is: ''Maharaji says if you don't like it - walk. So walk. Stop criticizing him and we'll stop harassing you by posting threats here and intimidating you with hate sites.''

Well, apart from the absolute indecency of this statement and the fact that they are proud of their unethical tactics, (sorry cultists we are quite entitled to criticise Rawat; he is a salesman and his product is defective; it's called educated consumerism) it's also very bad advice. The cultists have not tried walking and are terrified of doing so which is why they attack us. They are attempting to avoid dealing with their own superstitious religious paranoia.

Well, I'm fighting mine. Yes, Loaf, it is not easy to ''walk'' away from M and K. I have had some quite horrible experiences thinking that I was turning into a rotting vegetable and I'm serious. I just don't talk about it much as I don't like dwelling on negative thoughts.

I've tried putting on a brave face and being artificially jolly but I feel shafted without vaseline. Instead of sitting and moaning about it though I intend to do something about it. I prefer feeling righteously angry than impotently victimized.

But definitely the best revenge is to live well and that seems to be the reward for breaking from Rawat. I feel clean and clear and sane for the first time in quite a while. My cult malaise had become so chronic that I hardly noticed that I had the cult virus. What a relief to be well again.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 11:55:47 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Great post, Pat - thanks
Message:
I sense sometimes that you do put a good face on things, but I think it's important not to - at least sometimes. It gives hope to others who may be going through the same thing you are. And I love that line 'The best revenge is living well' - I believe Joe was the first person who posted it on the forum, and it has made so many people that I know feel better.

BTW, I am VERY glad the police took you seriously, Pat (thank god for San Francisco, eh?), and I think you are right to speak up about feeling hurt and victimized. I have not so far been listed on one of the attack sites, but I can imagine how it would feel - and I have been afraid that it might happen to me too (especially after the latest truly WEIRD list of supposed 'hate group' members on 'Halt Hate On-line'.)

But I truly hate intimidatory tactics, as I know you do - and I despise people telling me to 'sit down and shut up' - which I guess is what 'Just Walk' is supposed to mean. Or so it appears.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:24:40 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks, Katie
Message:
I feel very lucky in that I have Chuck and Andy. I have cried on their shoulders many a time in the past year.

That's why I stick around here. Not everyone has a shoulder to cry on. I have thought of writing about the agony of ''walking away'' from Rawat but it is still so close it is too painful. One day I will. Bring two boxes of Kleenex. ;)

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 22:17:15 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: I know the feeling Pat
Message:
There was a big turning point for me last spring and I believe that I expressed it openly on the forum. That was when it finally sunk in that everything that I held near and dear about m and the cult was false.

The dam burst, and the illusions along with the hopes and dreams of a lifetime started to wash away in a torrent of tears.

A river of self revelation started to flow at that moment and continues.

It sure beats hell out of those 'little drops of mercy from the guru'.

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 05:26:02 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Those ''little drops of mercy''
Message:
.....from the ''Master.'' Oh god, Brian, ugh! How could I ever have believed in such a stingy god? The crap that I swallowed is still being puked up. And I sure feel better to have that poison out of my system.

Sorry I called you Richard the other day. It's so embarassing. I hope it isn't premature old age.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:10:36 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Take care of yourself, Pat (w/Kleenex, of course)
Message:
Well, we're all still waiting for your 'journey', Pat :). (As well as Francesca's, Joe Whalen's and many others!)

Yes, it really helps to have supportive people around you - or one supportive person. I can testify to that! And you are right that not everyone has a shoulder to cry on - most 'real world' people just don't get it. An ex-premie friend of mine once told me she confided in a dear never-a-premie friend about what she was going though - and the friend was suitably sympathetic. However, when she tried to talk to the same woman a few weeks later, this woman said 'Aren't you over that yet?'

Take care,
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:33:09 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: and damn the cacweasels, Katie
Message:
Not everyone is as articualte as I am. I do talk about my problems - maybe not here - but to my pals. Some people hold in their sorrows and I have just had someone cry months worth of tears on my shoulders over the fear, sleepless nights and cold cruelty of the CAC attacks.

Decent premies need to get out of the cult now because soon I will not have mercy on them for condoning this inhuman rubbish and visiting such pain and terror on my friends and loved ones. I'm getting ready to punish. No one should have to suffer like that because of some greedy bastard guru who is lashing out because his business is in trouble.

I think I'll take a page out of Deborahs' book: FUCK YOU RAWAT YOU SLIMY IMMORAL CREEP!

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 07:49:39 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Loafie, you amaze me
Message:
Now that I read it back.. it seems convoluted to me too !

it was very early in the morning when I wrote it.. I must have been sleepy.

Forgiveness is all I crave

Loaf

PS no vaseline eh......just spit and polish

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:29:31 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Loafie, sometimes the convoluted writings are....
Message:
....the best, the most passionate. Many a time I have cringed at one of my rambling posts written late at night after a few glasses of wine but the rawness is real and sincere. As they say in the business: never edit your own stuff as it makes you censor yourself.

I am always rewarded by re-reading your messages. It's fun to suddenly see where you're going.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 13:50:32 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Thanks Pat
Message:
....the best, the most passionate. Many a time I have cringed at one of my rambling posts written late at night after a few glasses of wine but the rawness is real and sincere. As they say in the business: never edit your own stuff as it makes you censor yourself.

I am always rewarded by re-reading your messages. It's fun to suddenly see where you're going.


---

I agree... its quite often a surprise to me too.

By the way.. which business is that exactly ? Are people getting paid to post here ??

Am I misssing out ?

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:34:42 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: You didn't know we get paid to post?
Message:
One dollar per word with ten dollars subtracted for every typo. ;)

I used to edit all my own stuff and often killed it stone dead by over-writing. Then Chuck became my editor and I never looked back. In the writing business editors hate it when you either try to do it yourself or resist any of their alterations.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 17:14:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: You can't even joke about that around here!
Message:
Or it will appear on the next list of offenses by CAC, or 'Halt Hate' or whomever. Seriously - and I know you know that! Whoever it is has absolutely NO sense of humor - and seems compelled to take everything literally (a symptom of schizophrenia, btw.)

I only WISH we got paid to post - snicker (Brian and I would have made a fortune - and Jim would be a millionaire.)

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:11:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: What?? We DON'T???!
Message:
I thought posting was akin to staking out a claim on the pro-rated divestiture of Maharaji's estate, like a lien kind of. This is my entire retirement strategy. Tell me you're kidding.
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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 10:50:43 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Be careful, Jim
Message:
Some people have absolutely no sense of humor. This may appear on your next CAC profile, along with the money you supposedly embezzled to buy a Taco Bell franchise.

BTW, Jim, there are actually still people out there who think you are really my ex-husband. And that you went to Amaroo in drag. I'm not kidding!

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:59:29 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's called sweat equity
Message:
The more we make Rawat sweat the better. BTW, you owe 40 bucks just for today, Jim. Yep, 4 typos.

Also I think you are being very selfish making only one or two posts per day. I'm getting withdrawal symptoms.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 19:46:36 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: But the cacweasels make so many typos
Message:
....they'd end up owing us money. ;)
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 15:18:29 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: You didn't know we get paid to post?
Message:
I have to say that this pay -per-word policy is only going to encourage spammers.
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Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 03:37:29 (EST)
From: spammer
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: I want my dollars! Here are my words!
Message:
Guru Maharaji is a no good, fat, spoiled, con who is also ignorant, untalented, (please, enough with the poem writing, you suck!), and ugly. He cares for no one except himself. He is unethical and immoral. If you are his student and you ever need anything, don't bother asking your master because he ain't going to do nothing! Except, perhaps, call security. He has never worked a day in his life! He has taken the blood, sweat and money of thousands of people and used it only for his good. He has never helped another human being who was truly in need. Never given his share to the poor, never extended a helping hand. Maharaji in short, and he is that by the way, is a poor excuse for a human being. His deeds should buy him a stay in jail at the very least. He has damaged almost everyone he has come into contact with in one form or the other.
I could go on, but I refuse to write more until I get paid!
Just kidding. How many typos were there?
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Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 04:14:01 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: spammer
Subject: Not one typo - check is in the mail [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 23:47:29 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Yanks ? Help needed for translation
Message:
We're just finishing to translate John's messages. I have one problem in this paragraph:

'Attending the Sept '00 fundraiser, the thing I enjoyed most was the bar at night - watching Yoram work the room (that guy should work for the GOP) and catching up with old friends.'

What does GOP stands for ?

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 16:46:46 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yoram Weiss
Message:
We're just finishing to translate John's messages. I have one problem in this paragraph:

'Attending the Sept '00 fundraiser, the thing I enjoyed most was the bar at night - watching Yoram work the room (that guy should work for the GOP) and catching up with old friends.'

What does GOP stands for ?


---

    It may seem Yoram Weiss could be giving good advice,
    But the name of his game is to shell you.
    A street corner hustler, he's barking for a huckster,
    'Master' Captain Rawat, of Malibu.

    The game that they will play if you let them have their way,
    Sells you something you were never missing!
    They get from you in turn, all the cash you have to burn,
    but still his holy toes need your kissing!

    Such is Captain Rawat's circus for rich prats,
    Enroll to hear the Captain talk of truth!
    Once, more than merely God; now, an ordinary bod
    (except he is extraordin'ry uncouth).

    Some say he's enigmatic. He's surely psychopathic!
    Posing as Maharaji! Getting worshipped!
    He keeps spending faster, his mission's a disaster,
    with all the dear devoteds getting ripped.

    Tho' Yoram's winning smile is seeming free of any guile,
    know the cash that he's raising won't create.
    It will buy the Captain mundane baubles like a plane;
    a yacht maybe; and then a new estate.

    Yoram's just the milk-maid, it's the premies are the cows,
    Their milk has got the Captain badly hooked.
    The worshippers are down, the techniques are passed around.
    The Captain's goose is looking like it's cooked.

    Like your yoga bhakti? Your worship happy-clappy?
    You're better with a teacher who's humane.
    Kindly caring teachers are better than a preacher
    when the preacher's only care is to reign.

    If your buzz is kriyas -- with fingers in your ears,
    hear the music of the gods in your brain --
    use a teacher of yoga rather than a bogus
    Messianic guru fraud on the wane.

    When Yoram comes to call, better keep him in the hall.
    Use your money helping folks who are poor.
    Don't be a silly arse seen out posing with a farce.
    Use reason with your yoga evermore!

Copyright  2001  John Tucker.
Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article are permitted in any medium provided this notice is preserved.

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Date: Sun, Nov 11, 2001 at 17:12:50 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Great rap song, JohnT!
Message:
At least the beat and the double rhymes in many lines seemed like rap to me.
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Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 16:12:55 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Thanks to you Pat !
Message:
At least the beat and the double rhymes in many lines seemed like rap to me.


---

I did have rap rhythms in mind when I wrote that one, tho I'm afraid it's too regular to qualify as real rap, which needs to be somewhat wild and loose (sic). Ah, I was wild and loose once, before fatherhood, it was.

If anyone finds themselves moved to rap with it (and take liberties as necessary to make it fit their chosen music) that's fine with me -- just let me know.

I owe you an acknowledgement for the Yorum Weiss poem, and for the Elan Vital Company Song. It was your deconstruction of Rawat's mind-control racket that gave me the understanding of the Rawat's abuse of kriya and bhakti that I've sought to express in those poems.

When I can tear myself away from reading here long enough, I'll say something about the debt those poems owe to Pat Conlon, the San Franciscan sadhu and restauranteur. I wonder if you have a suitable deconstuctionist post to hand, that I could use to illustrate and acknowledge your contribution?

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Date: Mon, Nov 12, 2001 at 17:28:15 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Nothing immediately at hand, John
Message:
I saved my posts by date not subject matter and haven't sorted them out but how's this for serendipity? The first one that I saved (thinking it would become part of my Jourhey) was one that I wrote in response to a post by you on Jan 16th this year, two weeks after I first started on the forum. I know it has nothing to do with deconstructing bhakti but here it is:

John T, part of this is re holy family

How is this for the old reeling in lila? Got Knowledge on April Fools' day 1973 and felt that it was a piece of a playful universe's ''serendipity.'' Even at the time I had mixed thoughts about whether that was a good or bad omen.

In 74 I moved to London and met Ashokanand and served for a while as his valet at the Palace of Peace. He was a true gentleman of the traditional vedantic school but disdained the saffron robes and skinhead and wore a suit and spoke English.

Soon M arrived with his new wife and they came to the PoP. I remember feeling disappointed that his ''vibe'' was not as sweet as Ashok's. In April the festival in Copenhagen took place and the family was breaking up.

Ashok told me that Mata Ji had decided that M was a greedy, irresponsible playboy and that he was leaving to return to India with her and asked me to come with him. I was torn in two.

As I was standing in line to receive my first ''darshan,'' Ashok approached me and said: ''Don't do puja (worship) to him because you will be giving him your soul.'' As I was about ten feet away from the lotus feet Ashok put his hands together and begged me silently not to approach. I did and, as I kissed the lotus feet, I saw what I thought at the time was god in me and I got reeled right in.

Now I know it was my ''faith.'' Faith may not be able to move mountains, but it can create intense sensations of euphoria. That is why M keeps pushing the sound byte: ''Belief is relief.''

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 14:32:11 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: He came, he talked, he deconstucted !
Message:
I think you will find you started your deconstructionist posts almost immediately, starting in January 2001 and running on thru March. I've just checked the dates on my poems. The Company Song is Jan 2001, The Shell Man (to counter Yoram's fund-raising) is dated May, but that later one was 99 percent perspiration and took weeks and weeks whereas the Company Song just flowed out in a couple of days.

I think it might be useful (if you should come across some suitable material and can bear the thought of being sub-edited) to mail some such to me. I'll cheerfully knock them into one essay for you to give a final working over.

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 16:40:35 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Careful, JohnT, I may take you up on that
Message:
I could kick myself for not giving my saved posts titles instead of dates. When you asked yesterday I looked through my ''notes'' folder and it really is a mess. It doesn't help that I have mixed them up with drafts for business letters and notes to myself on other topics. I kept them as notes for my Journey but did not expect to look at them for a long time yet.

PS I took our political debate on AG to the top. I thought it made a good example of civilized democratic dialectic.

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 23:56:08 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: GOP
Message:
GOP means 'Grand Old Party,' which is another term for the Republican Party in the U.S.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 00:05:11 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: GOP
Message:
which is well known for it's very successful fundraising.
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 00:44:58 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: Thank you guys (nt)
Message:
aaaaaaa
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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:04:10 (EST)
From: PatC and Chuck
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: To all CAC victims: report to police
Message:
When the first CAC attack took place we did nothing about it as it disappeared so quickly. We figured that the cops may not take it seriously. Also we did not think that we had anything serious to fear. Well, we were wrong on all counts.

As the cult comes under more and more pressure, it's loonier members may well become more and more crazy and out of control. There is one premie in my city who is capable of ''doing anything to defend his master'' and has already been in prison for making a bomb threat against EV and the premies whom he thought were not obeying Rawat's agya.

These probably are the same sort of people who continue to harass us on the forum and who made the CAC attacks. As Cacweasel has said in several posts here and on AG today: there is no organization and premies are individuals acting on their own. This is only partially true as Rawat has it in his power to reprimand criminal behavior committed by his ''students'' in his name and is in fact legally obligated to do so.

Anyway, Chuck and I checked into reporting the CAC attacks and other incidents of cult harassment (which I cannot mention as they are under investigation) to the police department and found out that we had to file a report to the local police and get a case number before it would be followed up by the Hate Crimes Task Force of the SF police department.

Well, guess what? They did take it extremely seriously and asked for every detail of the cult and the CAC attacks. The fact that most of the sites have disappeared is not a problem as long as we have some leads. Unlike private individuals, the police can get warrants for the IP#s of the CAC creators. Even if they are anonymous they can be traced back to the computer from which they originated. They asked for the names of the cult leader and suspected perpetrators and the urls of the sites.

Please keep all info about the cult anti-ex sites that you turned up using ARIN or WHOIS. Keep all harassing posts made to you here or draw attention to them as this forum may be monitored by the police from now on. Also, keep all harassing emails and anything else that you think is important. If you were slandered on Glasser's site report it eventhough that site has now been changed.

Most importantly, for your protection, report that you have been victimised by the cult either by CAC or by cult apologists on the forum. Keep your case number and give the cops as much info as you deem necessary. If you know other people in your city who have been CAC victims, please get them to file a report and refer to your case number.

The fact that the cult did not condemn the first CAC attack thereby allowing the others to take place is of particular concern. The fact that the CAC sites published the home and business addresses and phone numbers of ex-premies thereby giving information to insane cult members shows a callous indifference for our safety.

Please report it as soon as possible not only to protect yourself from future harassment but in the event there is a suit brought against the cult. It will be proof that you feared for your safety. Feel free to email us if you have any questions or if you need our case number and reporting officer's name.

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:23:57 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: PatC and Chuck
Subject: Well this is more like it
Message:
Pat,

Well you know that I agree with you, and for the same reasons. Yes, we have names, numbers, posts that are archived.

Roupell is playing a game where he tries to turn the tables around on who is stalking who and revising BUT his game didn't work. He has admitted in posts, silly Roupell, that he has a gang of people cheering him on and even telling him what to say.

Furthermore, Roupell claims that the FBI are watching us to make sure we don't slip. He threatened the other day to call a 'friend' who has a file on me. NO THREATS THERE!!

The Law is on our side. Cyberstalking services will also assist us with this on the condition that we have reported it to the local police. I told you this last time.

I also told my teachers and authorities at school about the cyberstalking. They took it so seriously they allowed me to do my tests when I could handle it. I am making some new reports now.

I emailed you with a clever little idea. Let's get busy Pat.

No ex has ever cyberstalked a premie nor would we ever.

MAHA is a piece of shit who stinks more every day. He is a criminal who is only a star in the eyes of cult members. The public has NO compassion for him.

Maha flew into a rage when he found out one of his co-pilots found out he was a Guru. Premies, i ask you, does that make sense. Only if MAHA is a cult leader and would like others to be impressed with his multi-millions and googly-eyed entourage following him around wiping his ass. Maha, YOU SUCK.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 01:15:00 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Oh so clever Patrick Conmanon
Message:
Removing my reply to the libelous post above....

...made it look a little silly didn't it?

The last final resort of the beaten and desperate, remove any right of reply. Now I know why you got beat up at school all the time.

Never mind, Miss Rose's libelous post has been sent to the right place to be seen by the right people.

Cat's right, you really sink lower than anyone around here..

Understand this Mr Conlon...

unlike you...

I DO NOT LIVE IN OR OPERATE FROM - FEAR

Fear comes from guilt and it is very clear who the guilty ones are.

It is also clear why.

Gonna shuffle this post away now?

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:41:00 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: shuffling you away....
Message:
Little boy, it is time to go home now to meditate 'cause you sound 'in your mind'.

Who is laughing now? hahhahahaha I feel sorry for you. ())

Do you happen to know why ex-premies never go back?

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 20:49:05 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: salsa
Subject: Hi Salsa [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:29:49 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Put your money where your mouth is SC.
Message:
SC,

You said, you 'DO NOT LIVE IN OR OPERATE FROM - FEAR'.

Then how come you're scared to use your real name, like Pat and lots of other folk here do?

Come on SC, wocha scared of? Afraid to put your money where your mouth is?

Anth Ginn

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 01:27:50 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Your post was spam, Roupell
Message:
You have already posted that exact same insulting message to Deborah three times on this page in threads below. Your continued harassment of Deborah (or any ex-premie) will not be tolerated. You are no longer welcome here.

Your presence is seen for what it is - an attempt by a cult apologist to intimidate ex-premies and introduce an atmosphere that is not conducive to new exes to post here.

You are NOT entitled to post here and have overstayed your welcome. Please leave at once. If you wish to make your views known post them on LG or make your own website - unless you already have - CAC.

Premies can hear your side of the story by visiting Rawat's propaganda sites. Exes do not have to tolerate your deceitful, cynical, disrespectful and sociopathic behaviour.

The police have already seen enough of your fanatical cult behaviour and they are also in the archives. If I am requested to do so, your future posts will be deleted.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 04:44:00 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: You manipulative bag of shit Conlon
Message:
You can't fight well so you fight dirty.

NoPatsy, that post was not spam, it was a one off reply.

You allow one of the most spiteful, malicious and dishonest Cyberstakers (Deborah Rose) to post an untruthful libelous bunch of shit about me and then you delete my reply. Ho fucking ho.

Why? Because instead of being intimidated by the pathetic hidden threats she intended...

I WELCOMED THE POLICE TO THIS FORUM AND ENCOURAGED THEM TO STUDY THE CAC FILES VERY THOROUGHLY WHICH THEY NO DOUBT ARE DOING.

Yes, and that brilliant post about Ms Rose is very very embarrassing isn't it? Check your INSIDER editing facilities and you will see that I did not originally post it, you great bumbling buffoon.

Now run off and write another grovelling suck up to loaf who confused you until you saw the light. Yea.....you'd say anything..

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 14:26:48 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: You IDIOT! People are not cyberstalkers ..
Message:
... who merely post on Forums. All Deborah has done is post on F5 - 7 and Life's Great. Responding to your posts is not cyberstalking. If that is cyberstalking, you are guilty of cyberstalking yourself. But that's not what cyberstalking means. A cyberstalker hunts and tracks someone down, finds out where they work, where they live, where they go, what they do, who their friends are, threatens and intimidates them REPEATEDLY in their private capacity. JUST LIKE CAC AND ITS PROGENY DID TO MANY EXES. How else did they get the information on exes that they obtained and posted, some of it untrue because they weren't such great sleuths???? Why were people like Marianne harassed at their (supposed) workplace??? Nothing like that has happened to you. You haven't the foggiest what the term "cyberstalking" even means!!!

I will make one distinction. If an FA asks you to stop posting on a Forum, and you persist, and the FA happens to find out through your IP address who your ISP is, and complains to your ISP about your unwelcome activities, THAT is not cyberstalking either. Nor are you a cyberstalker if the FA thinks you are unwelcome here. That merely makes you a pest who is wasting his money (he owns the board and pays for the "screenviews") and time.

The more you show your ignorance about what cyberstalking truly is, the more you will raise suspicion that you are one of the people behind CAC and its progeny, because THOSE FOLKS have NO IDEA what cyberstalking really means, or at least they PRETEND to have no idea.

And remember, law enforcement may be monitoring this bulletin board.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 16:06:39 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Very well said
Message:
Thanks for pointing out what should be obvious to SC and cat.

They are becoming more shrill and nasty as the days go by.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 07:52:09 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: You manipulative bag of shit Conlon
Message:
I can take the credit for confusing Mr Conlon... but the light was always his own.

I just helped him to see it.

Loaf

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 06:37:41 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Got a minute SC??
Message:
You can't fight well so you fight dirty.

NoPatsy, that post was not spam, it was a one off reply.

You allow one of the most spiteful, malicious and dishonest Cyberstakers (Deborah Rose) to post an untruthful libelous bunch of shit about me and then you delete my reply. Ho fucking ho.

Why? Because instead of being intimidated by the pathetic hidden threats she intended...

I WELCOMED THE POLICE TO THIS FORUM AND ENCOURAGED THEM TO STUDY THE CAC FILES VERY THOROUGHLY WHICH THEY NO DOUBT ARE DOING.

Yes, and that brilliant post about Ms Rose is very very embarrassing isn't it? Check your INSIDER editing facilities and you will see that I did not originally post it, you great bumbling buffoon.

Now run off and write another grovelling suck up to loaf who confused you until you saw the light. Yea.....you'd say anything..


---

SC

There is a place of stillness and a place of noise. A place of reality and a place of confusion.

We can tell the difference by what we feel in our hearts.

The true nature of a human being is love, and we are only truly fulfilled when we feel it for ourselves.

So, I would recommend you reconnect to what you really are SC, your true nature within.

Take a deep breath and take that step. It's OK. You won't fall.

There's a whole planet full of human beings out here waiting to catch you.

You really can trust the creator.

There is life outside the cult and you see alot more if you take your fingers out your eyes.

Anth, dancing to the sound of falling wax still getting off on giving satsang.

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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 04:49:26 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Is that all the thanks I get, Mr Roupell
Message:
You are soooo ungrateful! You should thank me for turning you into a martyr for your cause. But I forgive you. You may kiss my left hand. :)
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Date: Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 09:41:10 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: LOL
Message:
Hi Pat,

If he's a good boy, you could let him kiss your holy ring.

Anth, the holy shit.

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:38:03 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Well this is more like it
Message:
I love your colorful vocabulary, Deborah, and I have just as sharp a tongue as you BUT I will be cooling my purple passages a bit now that the cops are monitoring the forum. ;)

If any Cacweasels stalk you or harass you on the forum please post directly after their posts drawing attention to it for the cops as the forum is a bit hard to read sometimes. Just say something like: ""CULT HARASSMENT!""

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:49:17 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: You got it!
Message:
Yeah! Sometimes, I just can't help myself. MAHA has done a lot of damage, that's why we're here. And to make matters worse, he cowardly has his squirrels stalk us and attacks people livlihood.

Sure, MAHA made MILLIONS of dollars in Arizona acouple of weeks ago just for showing up to thank 600 premies who make his financial life so sweet.

He wouldn't have to worry about money for generations. His kids get $40,000 cars for their birthday from donations. But he wants to attack your business for pointing the finger at HIS crimes. People are still suckered into believing he is the most benevolent person on the planet. Why else would they serve him for free for 30 years. Just doesn't happen in the real world.

He's still deceiving, but now he has to be in the destruction game as well. And John Mc said that Elan Vital would stop at nothing to protect Maha.

They're drowning in deception and mind-control, someone throw those guys a life raft.

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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:42:27 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Pat, please call me NOW
Message:
You know how to reach me
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Date: Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 22:43:41 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Will do so in about ten minutes [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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