AJW -:- I propose we all apologise to Maharaji. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:26:52 (EST)

__ Pullaver -:- Re: I propose we all apologise to Maharaji. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 14:18:03 (EST)

How to exit the cult -:- w/o having to explain yourself.... -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 09:11:31 (EST)

Vicki -:- So who's the Competitor? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:15:01 (EST)

__ Francesca ~) -:- Who are the brain police? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:55:40 (EST)

__ another reason -:- to visit New York, errr Philadelphia -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:34:40 (EST)

Pat:C) -:- Leonid meteor showers - totally OT.... -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:31:39 (EST)

__ Richard -:- Re: Leonid meteor showers - totally OT.... -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 11:03:38 (EST)

__ Disculta -:- Re: Leonid meteor showers - totally OT.... -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:37:46 (EST)

__ AJW -:- What Channel is it on? (nt) -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 06:04:02 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: What Channel is it on? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 06:18:44 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- Thanks Pat, would of missed it! OT -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:50:22 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- What a pleasure to know that just one... -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 06:13:35 (EST)

__ __ __ KIm -:- Re: What a pleasure to know that just one... -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:36:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Pleased to meet you, Kim -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:42:34 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- Re: Leonid meteor showers - totally OT.... -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:37:39 (EST)

__ __ Chuck S. -:- YES, we see meteors... -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:45:19 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- Send all group or 1-to-1 emails to -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 00:13:46 (EST)

__ salam -:- I thought you -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 00:28:26 (EST)

RichMandrake -:- The MahaMindfucker..Is he Consciously.. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:13:40 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- John was being diplomatic -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:36:57 (EST)

Salam -:- hey MariAnne -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:02:46 (EST)

Searcher -:- The noose tightens -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:20:59 (EST)

__ AJW -:- Not a noose. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:40:41 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Yeah Right, Are you trying to make a point here ? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 02:23:35 (EST)

__ Marianne -:- Is that you, Bjorn? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:42:55 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- No, Marianne. It's Roupell. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:54:03 (EST)

__ __ Not Bjorn -:- Kool aid anyone? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:15:54 (EST)

Artie and Camilla -:- Late Review - premie poetry -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 17:12:00 (EST)

__ AJW -:- If my heart is.... -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:35:27 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- ***BEST OF FORUM*** -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:27:22 (EST)

Patrick Wilson -:- EPO does publish misinformation! -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:55:30 (EST)

__ bill -:- Our staff is paid how much? [nt] -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 14:10:01 (EST)

__ know all -:- Re: EPO does publish misinformation! -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 09:30:16 (EST)

__ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: EPO does publish misinformation! -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:30:32 (EST)

__ AJW -:- We all make mistakes. Patrick -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:55:57 (EST)

__ __ Jethro -:- Demoted to Jesus? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 07:10:11 (EST)

__ __ __ AJW -:- They all look the same to me Jeth. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 12:34:39 (EST)

__ gerry -:- EPO does publish misinformation! -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:51:37 (EST)

__ Jerry Manderingh -:- Discrepancy? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:38:37 (EST)

__ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: Discrepancy? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:27:27 (EST)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- Just a note -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 03:56:17 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: Just a note -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 07:42:11 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Just a note -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:31:27 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Patrick -- That's uncalled for -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:24:42 (EST)

__ __ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: Patrick -- That's uncalled for -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:45:57 (EST)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Forum Ownership -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 12:22:11 (EST)

__ __ __ PatD -:- Yawns and disinterest -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 21:35:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatD -:- How did that gargoyle get into my signature [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:13:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: How did that gargoyle get into my signature -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:41:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ :PatD -:- Thanks. [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:46:16 (EST)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Patrick -- That's uncalled for -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 21:12:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ janet -:- gerry-lets turn it off -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:21:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :o -:- Oh no, Mr. Bill!!! ~) -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:39:33 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Joe...about the smiley faces... -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:29:38 (EST)

Francesca :) -:- I f-e-e-l gratitude! -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:57:01 (EST)

gerry -:- Goober's Achille's Heel -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:46:46 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- You're hilarious -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:32:26 (EST)

__ Tim G -:- I'll be the fly on the wall.nt -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:33:21 (EST)

__ __ Zelda -:- Taxes vs gurus- Centerpoint -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:40:31 (EST)

Joy -:- Training Conference at IHQ circa 1976? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:47:03 (EST)

__ Richard -:- Re: Training Conference at IHQ circa 1976??? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:28:07 (EST)

__ __ Disculta -:- I woz there too -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 01:14:26 (EST)

__ __ __ Joy -:- Yes, Maharaji was Nasty -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:20:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Yes, Maharaji was Nasty -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:57:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Why he was nasty -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:13:51 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Maharaji TRASHED those 'workshops' -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:46:46 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- About that tape... -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:36:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: About that tape... -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:06:45 (EST)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Food for the Mind -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 17:48:56 (EST)

__ __ __ RichMandrake -:- Joe..Do get those Tapes Transcribed, please...(nt) -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 17:11:08 (EST)

__ Katie -:- I think those were 'Workshops' -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:24:57 (EST)

Vicki -:- What will he do next?? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:38:09 (EST)

__ AJW -:- He'll fade away to Disneyland. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:54:52 (EST)

__ __ Vicki to Anth -:- Good Summary -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 07:00:31 (EST)

__ __ __ Vicki -:- Stuff -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 12:43:01 (EST)

__ __ __ AJW -:- What's the PR stuff Vicki? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 12:15:01 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Let's have a Really Smart People meeting -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:43:10 (EST)

__ __ AJW -:- I'm smart Jim. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:46:28 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Jim , you're funny! -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:27:56 (EST)

__ __ Smart People -:- what used to be foot kissers! [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:42:09 (EST)

AJW -:- Hey FA. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 08:49:54 (EST)

__ gerry -:- Re: Hey FA. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 11:52:03 (EST)

__ __ AJW -:- Shit Gerry. This is seriously bad. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:02:19 (EST)

__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Hey FA. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:22:40 (EST)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Only if... -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:36:44 (EST)

salsa -:- this is what K is about -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 08:00:20 (EST)

Does anyone know what % -:- of the cult members -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:10:12 (EST)

__ Vicki -:- Re: of the cult members -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:28:16 (EST)

__ __ Thanks Vicki -:- very helpful info [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:39:41 (EST)

Sleuth -:- link to above story -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:41:35 (EST)

__ Sleuth -:- Wups. Link to below story [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:18:10 (EST)

__ __ bill -:- keep to one thread [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 11:00:00 (EST)

__ __ __ salam -:- bossy are we? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 11:45:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Sleuth -:- Re: bossy are we? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:09:23 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: bossy are we? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 09:18:36 (EST)

Sleuth -:- Child Abuse around a god -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:37:10 (EST)

Pat:C) -:- My right to tell Rawat he's wrong -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:26:52 (EST)

Jethro -:- A posting from Ex-satsangi site -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:21:09 (EST)

__ AJW -:- That's interesting Jeth'. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:02:29 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Trainings compared to ITPs -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 23:58:11 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- WoWee - The true qualifications for an Aspirant -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:10:58 (EST)

__ salsa -:- do you remember -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 06:21:28 (EST)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Salsa? Which booklet? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 08:53:13 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- Just was talking with a premie tonight -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:41:10 (EST)

__ __ hamzen -:- Had a similar conversation recently -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:12:23 (EST)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- I should exercise more compassion -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:01:54 (EST)

__ Jim -:- VERY interesting, JM! -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:49:37 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Thast -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:46:41 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Jean-Michel... -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:38:13 (EST)

__ __ AJW -:- Wanting to be an instructor. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:05:42 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Anth, Proper Wages?..I Want Back Pay! [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:09:05 (EST)

__ __ __ Mahatma Coat -:- Re: Wanting to be an instructor. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:43:12 (EST)

__ __ __ __ AJWdustathisfeet -:- Ah Mahatma Ji. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:13:22 (EST)

Steps -:- for exiting Pams -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 22:19:50 (EST)

__ Marianne -:- Re: for exiting Pams and others -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:10:18 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: for exiting Pams and others -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:47:56 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- And me too -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:50:58 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- And you, too, are a Gem, Jim b) -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:00:44 (EST)

Jim -:- They're sounding worse all the time -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:30:46 (EST)

__ Vicki -:- Sadder yet..... -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:57:44 (EST)

__ __ Francesca ~) -:- But Vicki, it's just like M's poetry -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:18:22 (EST)

__ __ __ Vicki -:- It certainly is Francesca! -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:41:05 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- You're right about that -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:41:04 (EST)

__ JohnT -:- They're sounding like Rawat -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:07:02 (EST)

__ __ Francesca ~) -:- Paintings of Rawat with big eyes -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:21:38 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Big Rawat Eyes on Velvet...:) [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:32:03 (EST)

Jim -:- A cult eulogy for the unnamed premie -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:42:45 (EST)

__ AJW -:- It could be worse Jim. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:19:09 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- Whose life is it anyway? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 03:33:10 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Easy Does It, Jim... -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:59:24 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Ah, at last, a chance to pummel Cynthia -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:36:16 (EST)

__ __ __ I'm sending you my -:- Book of Prayers to Maharaji... -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:55:26 (EST)

Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:26:52 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: All Subject: I propose we all apologise to Maharaji. Message:

I propose we all apologise to Maharaji.Look at it like this. The Captain is in trouble. The cult’s crumbling fast. He’s got the payments on the jet he doesn’t own to keep up. There’s the overheads of his mansions around the world. Annual dues to the Peter Frampton fan club. Large hospitality and entertainment bills. Petrol. Cigarettes. Booze. It’s not easy being the boss of a collapsing cult with a taste for expensive cognac and fast bras. It sounds like his temper is getting shorter, and I’m sure there are people lurking everywhere, wondering how to break the bad news that the repo-man may be round for the speedboat next week unless they can find $X,000 or whatever. He’s probably having trouble sleeping. He hasn’t got any real pals he can talk to. Everyone just sucks up to him all the time. It's not easy being a fallen avatar. And if he hadn’t got mixed up with all us hippies in the West, he’d probably be in a nice pad in Dehra Duhn, with a Hindu wife, and everyone worshiping like they did in the old days. Instead of saying, “What are you wearing that fucking silly hat for?” They’d say, “Oh look. Here comes Lord Krishna. Watch out for miracles. Dig the darshan.” But no. He should have listened to his mum. He came to the West and got corrupted by the hippies. We got him into sex, drugs, cigarettes and drink. And look at him now. First he was seduced by all those Californian blonds, then they started pouring cognac down his neck. He goes down to the river to get some water for the ashram. Next thing he’s got a wife, four kids and private jet in Malibu. Talk about Maya. We should apologise to the Captain for leading him astray. To make recompense, we should pay for a month in detox, stick him in some pyjamas, put some flowers round his neck, shove $500 and a portable DVD player in his pocket and stick him on a plane back to Dehra Duhn. Then he can go back to the ashram, live a life of purity, and rediscover his roots. And we can shut the forum down and get on with life. Whaddya think? Anth the confused, deluded, illusion.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 14:18:03 (EST) From: Pullaver Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: I propose we all apologise to Maharaji. Message:

Here's my apology: Dear Maharaji: I was twenty when you demanded I surrender the reins of my life to you. I'm sorry I took you so literally and moved into one of your 'shelters'. I'm sorry that I gave you my youth and ambition and money. I'm sorry that I was almost thirty before I could savour the warmth of a loved one next to my naked body again. I'm sorry for all those who were hurt, abused and discarded in sincerely trying to follow your direction. I'm sorry for all those who didn't have children and were estranged from their family and friends in attempting to serve you as you asked. I'm sorry for all who were forced to somehow piece together a life and career after pissing away all that time with you. I'm sorry that you have been able to amass a personal fortune on the backs of people like me and continue to spread your deception in this world. I'm sorry that you won't take responsiblity towards those you have harmed. I'm sorry that you are so callous, uncaring and self-absorbed that if you ever did hear these words they would be falling on deaf ears. I'm sorry that you don't see it this way. I'm sorry that I ever listened to you. Sincerely, L'il ol' humble me

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 09:11:31 (EST) From: How to exit the cult Email: None To: All Subject: w/o having to explain yourself.... Message:

to other cult members until you are ready- notify 'Team Leader' and others who you don't want to harass you that you feel that it is time to make real and fully understand what 'within inside' really means. Tell them that for some unknown reason that you haven't been as fortunate as they in making this wonderful experience constant and you want to be able to be a shining example of M's K like they are. Tell them you are practicing the K 8 to 10 hours a day and your HEART tells you to continue. Beware some will tell you that there is a need for balance(meaning don't do that-do what will make them feel safer and less threatened by your behavior) When you are ready implement step 2, which is putting a stop to those monthly charges to your credit card!

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:15:01 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: All Subject: So who's the Competitor? Message:

Revealing the American Language of Intelligence, by Jean-Marie Bonthous, uncovers the emotions underlying the way American respond to the very idea of gathering and using information on competitors, and the irrational fears that prevent American companies from taking advantage of vital data. $45.00The book provides recommendations for making CI work in America’s corporate environment. 1996, 83 pages, US . [ JMB's books ]

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:55:40 (EST) From: Francesca ~) Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Who are the brain police? Message:

Remember that Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention song? Now that we know about 'the trainings,' I am thinking that for a devoted premie, the surest way to get some darshan and make a lot of money is to aspire to be the corporate/psychological trainer du jour. And if you don't make it, you can still make a lot of money baffling 'em with bullshit. I don't think much of corporate training, though I can't be totally black and white about every single thing out there. It seems to me that there are more sheep in the world that shepherds, and if you act like a shepherd, people may listen, at least for a while. CT was gearing up years ago when I was in LA with Tim Gallwey starting up the Inner Game work. After all those years of giving satsang and selling a vacuous, circuitous, mindless, smoke-and-mirrors theory like the 'specialness' of M, and the 'uniqueness' of K (which is indistinguishable from countless forms of meditation) -- corporate training, here we come!! Bang your staff, and look around for them sheep. (Oh and it helps to have a few silly buzzwords, too.) ROLF, Francesca

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:34:40 (EST) From: another reason Email: None To: Vicki Subject: to visit New York, errr Philadelphia Message:

Jean-Marie Bonthous has been living in the United States for 15 years where he founded JMB International, a New York-based company specialized in economic intelligence and strategic management. (...). [Total : 190 mots]. (3.25USD

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:31:39 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: All Subject: Leonid meteor showers - totally OT.... Message:

It's a once in a lifetime fireworks show. It won't happen again till 2099. In about half an hour from posting this (it's just before 1.30 am PST) there may be as many as 1,000 meteors falling per hour. The sky is clear. No fog for a change and it's chilly outside. The local tribe of racoons are climbing up the pine tree in the neighbor's backyard chattering to each other with their eerie squeaks and clucks. They are very talkative and noisy. I'm putting on something warm and heading back out.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 11:03:38 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Leonid meteor showers - totally OT.... Message:

I got up at about 1:20 am, went out and saw beautiful starry sky - a novelty in the last week in PNW. I went back to be having not seen a meteor. I heard Susan say 'I saw one' so we both went out. Our night sky to the east is blocked by a huge madrona tree and Seattle lights make that part of the sky to bright. But it was absolutely incredible to see the bigger meteors streak across above us and our very dark Western sky. According to a friend, there was an astronomer on NPR waxing poetic about how the Leonids Meteor Shower is remenants of the Big Bang and contained the same cosmic dust that our planet and all life derived from. Don't know about all that but it was quite wonderful to see. Richard, who saw strange and wonderful signs of great encoragement in the sky this morning

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:37:46 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Leonid meteor showers - totally OT.... Message:

We had planned to stay up for them, but both crashed out, zonko. But then I woke up at exactly 2am! We stumbled onto the back steps and watched the show. I made lots of wishes. It was cold, but thrilling. Earlier in the day we had been watching this anthropological documentary about parts of Bali and Java, where, when children cry at night, the parents take them out and show them the sky, and say 'don't worry, there's your home' and they stop crying (they believe they ome from the Pleiades). love ktd

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 06:04:02 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: What Channel is it on? (nt) Message:

I don't know if my wireless reaches that far.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 06:18:44 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: What Channel is it on? Message:

There may still be some tonight. Tune your wireless eyes to Leo on the eastern horizon. And so to bed.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:50:22 (EST) From: Tonette Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Thanks Pat, would of missed it! OT Message:

Incrediable! Never seen so many meterorites in my entire life! What a SHOW! Thanks again, Tonette

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 06:13:35 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Tonette Subject: What a pleasure to know that just one... Message:

other person at least got to see it - and that person was you. We live on the beach so it is fairly dark out here but unfortunately they were coming from the east where all the light from the city is. So, we only saw the really big ones. After seeing 11 in just the first few minutes though, I stopped counting because I had already seen more than in my entire lifetime. And when they began to come in multiples I felt like I was at Wimbledon as I looked from north to south. In parts of Spain they recorded 6,000 an hour. I watched for about 15 minutes before I got a crick in my neck and started to freeze. At it's peak there were about ten per minute which is 600 per hour. Most are only the size of a .22 bullet so we didn't see those. The ones we saw were probably the size of a tennis ball or larger. I saw two red fireballs but most were white and many were phospherescent green and left glowing twinkling trails sparkling behind them which faded more slowly than any falling star I have ever seen before. We were not the only nuts still awake oohing and aahing. Our neighbors two houses a way were doing the same. They came so fast that I only managed to remember to make two wishes. The third time I remembered to wish I thought. ''I really don't have anything to wish for. I've got everything I already want.'' It was worth getting chilled to the bone and getting a crick in the neck.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:36:45 (EST) From: KIm Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: What a pleasure to know that just one... Message:

Thank you so much for telling us about the meteors. It was far too cloudy here in London but now I feel as thought I can particpate in your lovely experience. Blesings from Kim(wife of Jethro)

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:42:34 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: KIm Subject: Pleased to meet you, Kim Message:

San Francisco, like London, is usually too cloudy or foggy to see anything so we were very lucky. Glad you got to see them Richard and Disculta.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:37:39 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Leonid meteor showers - totally OT.... Message:

Did you see the meteors? J

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:45:19 (EST) From: Chuck S. Email: None To: Jethro Subject: YES, we see meteors... Message:

From the back yard, away from streetlights, we've seen some very dramatic ones, mostly going from east to west. Some with very long, thick trails that quickly break apart. They are the most dramatic ones I've ever seen. The storm is supposed to peak around 2am, but I can't stay out there too long, it's too cold. I'm going to check it out again later before going to sleep.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 00:13:46 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: All Subject: Send all group or 1-to-1 emails to Message:

my address which is set up for this purpose which is sirdavid12@hotmail.com I want to hear the gossip and inside stories so please email me at that address, whether it be group email or one to one. Please DON'T email me at my david_simpkiss email address because that's for private and personal mail only. Thank you.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 00:28:26 (EST) From: salam Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: I thought you Message:

don't do a 1-to-1 anymore and you are into groupies.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:13:40 (EST) From: RichMandrake Email: None To: All Subject: The MahaMindfucker..Is he Consciously.. Message:

Manipulative...or is he just Really Good at it Naturally?... John Macgregor's Post so eloquently expressed the Unresolvable Dichotomies that MahaRawat Used to Trap us in His Web. I am still Stunned by How Blatantly Manipulative MahaRawat has become as Demonstrated by these 'Trainings'...and still wondering How I could have been so deceived for so Many Years..It does help to see that many other very Bright…sane….Good human beings have been equally deceived. As John states ..we were programmed in our impressionable late adolescence in a place within ourselves where rational assessment was not possible. As to John's Posts, I would have found it very valuable if he had described more specifics...For Instance...John talks about the 'Amaroo Mutiny'...but gives only generalities..On the Subject of the trainings...He talks about games played that no one could win..and endless processes designed to beat down ones resistance...Does anyone have any specifics on any of these subjects????..I am Hungry to Know...what I Dont Know... Also, I disagree with John's assessment that MahaRawat doesnt really know what hes doing...John is too kind…It sounds like MahaRawat knows EXACTLY what hes doing...Setting Up 'Ringers' to do his bidding...Carefully Scripting Scenarios...that look like Spontaneous Events..All To Bring Home these Points: 1. I am the Master. WHATEVER I Say Goes.(no Criticism of MahRawat Tolerated in the training…He Sets the Rules..but Breaks all His Rules whenever he Chooses. He is Revered…all others face arbitrary humiliation.) 2. You are VERY Flawed and Imperfect and NEED Me. Without ME you are Nothing( this seems to be the foundation from which ALL Other of MahaRawat's Manipulations Flow..Thus..from the Self-Criticism Processes in the training…to the Angry Daddy Walking Out game…to the Humiliation and Ostracism Play....They ALL Are Design to Drive this Point HOME) 3. Your Only Salvation is to Subjugate your will COMPLETELY to Me...and Beg My Attention and Approval (Please Maharaji come back it was ALL MY FAULT!!! I Recommit to the Group, Daddy..PLEASE COME BACK!!!!) I believe Maharaji sets up this passion play with Complete conscious awareness and intent. He has the help of trained Psychologists who know what they are doing. He secretly places 'ringers' in the crowd to make sure the 'Script' is followed. DAMN!!…How More Consciously and Intentionally Manipulative can you Get.??? John goes into all the Mindfuck Dynamics with great insight and clarity..….but the bottom line is this…that as these trainings demonstrate...behind the Sweetness and light…when Maharaji's Status and Power are threatened…he is BRUTAL And RUTHLESS…Caring Nothing for the People who he Claims to be leading to the Promised Land…Behind the Blissful smile 'Maharaji's World' turns out to be filled with Darkness ,Manipulation and Fear…and the ONLY Rule that Stands….is that HE Gets Whatever He Wants…and You Get to give him what he wants….Or Else….Pretty Scary, eh?…

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:36:57 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: RichMandrake Subject: John was being diplomatic Message:

and letting us draw our own conclusions, IMO. If John Mc said that MAHA was an insufforable DICKHEAD, it would weaken his credibility from premies and strengthen objection from his opponents. In regards to your quest about the Mutiny, John also said that he was going to refrain from mentioning names on the forum. This is very consistent with his diplomatic stance. And I trust that John has very good reason. Let's be patient, and allow the story to emerge, which I'm sure it will. Some of the recent posts have exceeded my expectations. I'm sure they'll just get better. It's amazing how deep Maha's ugliness goes, eh? Hope you're feeling better, these days. I know what it's like for you Rich. I arrived at the forum a couple months before you. Just when you think you're getting a grip on the reality of cult participation and deceit, someone like John posts a whopper. Cults are not innocent participation. They are riddled with deception, and it serves one person, the cult leader. Sadly, Maha is a sick man, not a genuine master.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:02:46 (EST) From: Salam Email: None To: All Subject: hey MariAnne Message:

I thought this maybe of interest to you. You remember talking about mass suicide initiated by cult leaders after having their balls caught in a grinder? Well here is another on that took place in a 'remote' location. Of course Indian gurus don't do this sort of thing, yes? Cheers, say hello to your slave driver. NO TOOLS TO DIG UP UGANDA MASS GRAVE UGANDAN police said on Tuesday they were unable to start examining a possible new mass grave used by members of a Doomsday cult believed to have murdered around 900 of its followers because they lacked equipment. Officials say they had sealed off a house in a Kampala suburb rented by cult leader 'Father' Dominic Kataribabo after locals noticed a strong smell coming from the ground following a heavy downpour last week. 'We are not really equipped for the job and it is unlikely we will be going there soon,' police spokesman Eric Naigambi said. He did not explain what equipment was missing but said a special task force was being created to deal with the issue. The government was heavily criticised last month for using bare-footed prisoners to exhume nearly 400 corpses from mass graves at homes belonging to the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God in southwestern Uganda. Around 500 other cult members were burned alive in a church at Kanungu in the same region on March 17. from: http://www.mg.co.za/mg/za/archive/2000apr/25aprpm-news.html

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:20:59 (EST) From: Searcher Email: None To: All Subject: The noose tightens Message:

Rueter/AFP Government called to ban cult A cult victims support group has called on the government to outlaw a cult that they claim has destroyed families and preyed on the weak. The cult, which has branches in almost every city and town, entices people with a simple promise, 'come and feel good'. According to a spokesperson for the Cult Victims Supporters (CVS), 'that simple promise is just a bait to entice people into the cult'. One victim said her sister joined the group and within a few months had given up her job and had become a vegetarian. 'She used to come around to watch the Monday night football, eat fried chicken and drink. Within weeks of joining this group she claimed that she should eat less meat and a week later she became a vegetarian for Christ sake'. The CVS claims that the cult strips members of their individuality and encourages people to change into 'mindless robots' and tells them that repeating some simple techniques will change them for the better. A local businessman said that his wife was invited to a meeting in a local hall with the promise of 'a natural way to feel better'. Within weeks she was spending hours with the group and started to change. 'One night I followed her to a meeting. I couldn’t believe what I saw. This so-called instructor had my wife behaving like a child. Do this, do that, clap your hands! It was sick. Later on, when I asked my wife 'how was it?' she said it was great, but I know what I saw, they weren’t laughing'. One concerned husband heard alarm bells when his wife refused to make him dinner saying she had, 'an appointment with the master'. 'Afterwards I asked her where she’d gone and she said she been 'climbing the stairway to heaven', when I asked if she got there, she laughed and said 'No, you don’t ever get anywhere with the master. No matter how hard you try you always end up in the same place'. When confronted with the accusation that their activities can cause them pain, many cult members admit to it but say, 'there is no gain without pain'. The CVS says that this idea of pain being 'beneficial' or 'just part of the process' is outrageous and clearly indicates that cult members are being brain washed. And whilst some cult members insist they contribute freely and enjoy benefits from the group’s activities, the CVS dismisses these claims and says that these people are delusional and can no longer think for themselves. 'The CVS position is very clear, we don’t like what they’re doing, we don’t want to do it and they shouldn’t be doing it'.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:40:41 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Searcher Subject: Not a noose. Message:

In our case, it's not that we're watching the noose tighten around somebody's neck. It's more like we're sitting around, having a laugh, watching a dog running around chasing it's own tail, in ever decreasing circles. The worst that's going to happen to him, is he'll fall over, make himself sick and go back to his kennel and think about opening a luxury used car-mart. In fact it's inevitable. Anth, step back, you don't want to get any on your legs.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 02:23:35 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Searcher Subject: Yeah Right, Are you trying to make a point here ? Message:

or just be cute? You don't seem to be doing well at either

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:42:55 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: Searcher Subject: Is that you, Bjorn? Message:

If it is, you had better go back to the hole you were hiding in, because you have just made yourself a target again. If Searcher isn't Bjorn, your comments are misguided.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:54:03 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Marianne Subject: No, Marianne. It's Roupell. Message:

Unlike him, his IP# does not lie.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:15:54 (EST) From: Not Bjorn Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Kool aid anyone? Message:

If it is, you had better go back to the hole you were hiding in, because you have just made yourself a target again. If Searcher isn't Bjorn, your comments are misguided. --- at the contest for best drama queen, you win hands down Marianne. your post about the boiling cauldron was the most humourous i read in ages. Even serious Jim who does not usually fall for this kind of exageration fell for it this time. With the exes perspective, a Republican convention would be consired a Maoist boot camp... Really, you should take it easy...everyone is alive and kickin' and there is no threat of Armageddon in the premie population (except in your own mind, of course) Have a great day and stop worrying

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 17:12:00 (EST) From: Artie and Camilla Email: snipes@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: All Subject: Late Review - premie poetry Message:

The awareness of all awarenesses If my heart is my whole world... If my heart is the center of my entire universe... then it is neither my effort nor my sweet longing... but the awareness of all awarenesses that makes me who I am... My awareness of this awareness opens the channel to my grateful heart and allows me to come out and to feel to be more conscious and to be more clear... Stojan Svet Postojna, Slovenia ********************************************* A poem about Knowledge Trust in the master. . . Trust in Knowledge. . . Knowledge nurtures me and sustains me. . . Knowledge shelters me and protects me. . . Knowledge heals me and comforts me. . . Knowledge gives my heart the wings to soar in jubilant exhiliration. David Pansa Utica, NY, USA ************************************************ Keeping in touch There is a breath Life is here There is a student Maharaji is here There is a connection Joy is here Shining feelings are everywhere Ivete Belfort Mattos Sao Paolo, Brazil ************************************************* Harmony I am a breath of air: Pure, clear living air. I am a drop of water: A flowing grace. I am a piece of earth: Elemental movement. I am a spark of fire: A bonding warmth and light. I am awareness: The ability to choose and observe. My master gave me Knowledge and now I know the feeling of gratitude and the experience of bliss in my heart. Maybe none of these are mine except the pure enjoyment of them all. Jim Sakshaug Marblemount, USA …. Artie Snipes: OK, hello and welcome once more to Late Review. Without further ado we’ll start with news of what must be the ‘Crap Pack’s finest, some would say, ‘crappiest’ anthology to date from the banalite nouveau movement’s enfants-truly-bloody-terrible. This latest slim volume incorporating the latest purple-penned poetic pap from Messr’s Pathos, Pansa, Sakshaug and, er, Kojak, has left me gasping for words to describe the ways I have felt moved. Truly moved – none more so than in the bowel department – hahaha – but that, of course, is the whole point. Incontinence goes hand in hand with incompetence. Scatty goes scatological, perhaps. And once more I am joined by our visiting Arts commentator Camilla Proust-Nugent – editor in chief of The Post-Structuralist Wanker - fresh from, and dare I say refreshed by, the Turner Prize awards dinner. Over to you Camilla. What did you make of this latest chapter in the Banalite brigade’s fin de siecle ouvre..? …So bad it’s brilliant, perhaps? So black it’s white..? So awful it is awesome, er, so insipid it is inspirational? So gloriously minimal it’s glutinously maximal? So [Pssst – Camilla – we’re on air. Put that bloody phone down, woman…] So godforsaken it’s Godly..? Er – Camilla…welcome. I am sure there are hundreds or even dozens – haha - of viewers out there keen to glean what they can from your musings.. Camilla Proust-Nugent: [Look you bastard, what sort of agent are you for fucks sake - I’ve been to Girton College, Oxford – so if you think I’m going to talk to this jumped up little working-class squit for less than 4 figures, you’ve got a … oh fuck ehhemmm…click]… …Oh yes, Arti, so awful, Its awe-inspiring, awesome, ontologically challenging … so black and white… lights on...lights off… lights on... lights off…so subtle, yet so obvious. So obvious, yet so subtle [hic] . So reminishent of Mapplethorpe … yet, shomehow, stretching the boundaries of the ‘every day’ to incorporate the ‘numinal’, the ‘godless’, the underbelly of the patriarchal Law… exposed here in all it’s revolting, abject, post-Freudian super-ego. Itsh dark, its light. It’s dark, it’s light… Gilbert… and George…. crap before the anal-stage… luminous in its simplicity, somehow pure in its guileless ignorance……fetishishtic even, it shimultaneously exposes and denies the ‘feminine’….. Artie: Well yes, we’ll be coming back to the Turner Prize after our Theatre Roundup, but for the moment, can we talk about The Awareness of All Awareness, the first poem in the eponymous anthology that everybody is talking about, and – I am certain – will be literally flying out of bookshops up and down the land.. or at least dribbling from bargain bins six months hence – haha – which, perhaps is the whole point: the cheaper you get the deeper you penetrate public’s awareness. And awareness is what this collective enterprise is all about, no..? I mean, take this stanza from Svet, truly a William McGonegall of our times… If my heart is my whole world... If my heart is the center of my entire universe... then it is neither my effort nor my sweet longing... but the awareness of all awarenesses that makes me who I am... My first and maybe second thoughts are these: would these pretty vacant sentiments mean any more if they ‘meant’ something? I think not. Meaninglessness carries its own meaning. Nay, or rather, moreover, meaninglessness is the very essence of its meaning. Both the author and reader become aware of that semantic void in the work – the void that lies at the very heart of the ‘piece of work that is man’, as the Bard once put it, perhaps. Or at least that’s my take on it. How about you Camilla? Camilla: [Get your hand off my thigh you little shit….] Yes eeerrrrm, meaning and non-meaning, being and non-being, doggerel/McGonegall, vacancy and evacuation…. Light and dark…. Light and dark…. The whole point, is that our very attempt to grasp for meaning is futile…it falls into the gap, or the void , as you put it…… this is what is so brilliantly exposhed, or rather, should I say, unexposed, in the carnivalesque play of language that is the hallmark of these iconic figurations of authorless, meaningless, nay, even moronic, dialectic. The very notion of meaning has, I’m sure you’ll be aware Artie, been deconshtructed by Althusser, not to mention subverted by the every essence of Michel Foucault. What do you think Artie? Does Foucault, in Les Mot et Les Choses , convince you with his archaeology?… I take it that you have read the French… I find the translation lacks the phallic power of the original… don’t you think?…. But , of course, je ne regret rien, noir/blanc, noir/blanc….Lights on, lights off… So beautiful…. More orgasmic in their violence than the fireworks of Novembre Cinq, n’est-ce pas? Of course, I musht add the caveat that, as women how would we ever be permitted entry to the universal phallic hegemony of the post-feminist … Artie: Er – absolutely – of course. But as I said before, we’ll be coming back to the Turner later in the show, and anything you like after we’re finished, but for the moment, can we please talk about The Awareness of All Awareness? And awareness is the crucial theme also taken up and developed so effectively by the American idiot nouveau Jim Shakshaug in the inspired new-age Christmas card parody Harmony: I am a breath of air: Pure, clear living air. I am a drop of water: A flowing grace. I am a piece of earth: Elemental movement. I am a spark of fire: A bonding warmth and light. I am awareness: The ability to choose and observe. Note how, where if a lesser or greater poet - you or I, say - were writing this, we might come out with something like the bland – Descartian, if you will - ‘I am aware’. Shakshaug goes one better, moving into sillier, more challenging terrain with the pronouncement: ‘I am awareness’. Again, for me, the meaning is at once lost and therein parodoxically found. Or so it seems…? Camilla: Nah…. Shackshag, in this gloriously numinous prose with its homage to lesbian phallus [pass me the bloody book you cretin if you can’t understand it], exposes the very constructedness, the very contingency, of masculine subjectivity…as I’m sure you must be aware… nay ‘are awareness’ in the Foucauldian sense, or non-sense…. the elemental movement , in its oblique (yet reasshuringly obvious) reference to masturbation, denies, even subverts, the male subject’s obsession with the phallus. It cries, this verse, in its very banalitie , as you so [hhemm] perceptively put it, Artie, to the Oedipal Catch Vingt-Deux of the performativity of the male psyche. Bonding warmth and light, in its fetishistic invocation of the semi-transparent womb, speaks to my inner child, speaks so poignantly of the light…the dark…. Lights on…lights off…lights on… Artie: [..but nobody at home..? haha] Anyway, thanks, Cam. Let’s look at Dave Pansy’s mercifully short but charmingly prosaic contribution to the anthology: Trust in the master. . . Trust in Knowledge. . . Knowledge nurtures me and sustains me. . . Knowledge shelters me and protects me. . . Knowledge heals me and comforts me. . . Knowledge gives my heart the wings to soar in jubilant exhiliration. What I see here is the consummate work of an artist at the top of his game. The game is, in fact, negated before it starts. In a work that conveys no information or understanding whatsoever, we see these repeated, staccato, stultifyingly tedious references to ‘knowledge’. He knows nothing, conveys nothing. Perfect! A polarity and self-contradiction so blatant we can but shudder with appreciation… And, of course, ‘appreciation’ of nothing in particular is itself a recurring theme in this landmark volume… Camilla: Yes… my point, exactly, the non-epic ‘epic’ speaks to our post-modern sensibilities so aptly, so devastatingly…. lights off… nobody at home… the Death of the Author…. And here, in David Pansy’s deliberately inarticulate, nay wilfully moronic, prose… we see the final damning of the very notion of authorship . It is not so much that any moron could have written this , but more that No One could have written this…. It is dangerously empty, beguilingly subversive … it asks Where do we go next? Is this what we have come to? Is this all that being human is? . But it asks these questions inadvertently, in spite of itself, if you see what I mean Artie…? Artie: Well I was hoping we’d find time to talk about Ivette’s delightful yet savage piece of calculated unreality, Keeping in Touch, but unfortunately it’s time for our weekly theatre roundup… Now I know there are only too many musical-lovers out there only too willing to bad-mouth Sir Andrew Lloyd Webster. Not least for his blatant plagiarism, his dilletante Canneletto collection, for his dodgy politics, his lousy taste in lyricists and pretty well anything else you can think of. And who am I to disagree…? But.. Camilla: Well of course, as Andrew was only saying to me last week, over an intimate little lunch, he who is not with me is against me . I do rather like his scintillating, post-ironic little asides – lost on the lumpenproletariat, I fear….AND, while we’re on the subject of the underclasses Artie – why have you left Ivette til last…and then rather too conveniently left her out? Do I detect a subtle misogyny at work here? Yes, I think I do - it’s Sylvia Plath all over again! As Andrew (surely the ‘Sylvia Plath of popular music’ wouldn’t you agree, Artie?) was just saying to me, last week, just because he comes across as a bit ‘girly’, lacking, as he so freely admitted to me, in a particularly intimate moment, the macho qualities of the stereotypical working-class male, he has to constantly run the gamut of ignoramus jumped-up, foul-mouthed, cretinous little critics like … Artie: - er-hum - actually, a true story here, but Sir Andrew once asked a friend in confidence: ‘Why do people take an instant dislike to me?’ The friend replied ‘It saves time later..’ ha-ha… I mean, ha-ha.. I mean it saves time later… Can you imagine? Beautiful…er, oops, er, I mean let’s talk about The Beautiful Game. What’s Ben Elton doing in there, for a start? Camilla: Well you may ashk Artie…but is there such a thing as ‘true’ Artie? No, of course, so your ‘true story’ rings a little hollow wouldn’t you say?? As I shaid to Benji only the other day….Itsh all a Beautiful Game, n’est ce pas? As Ivette puts it , in her own, post-ironic crappesque … There is a connection Joy is here Shining feelings are everywhere Yes - .The futility of it all… the always grashping for the connection…. Shining feelings are everywhere . Everywhere but where she is… But, does shhe really know what she is polishing, what she is attempting to make shiny, Artie? Has she ever had a bit of rough to polish Artie? [Hey, do you fanshy a quick shag after the gig?] Artie: ...er, mmm, oh my fucking christ.. [Late Review inexplicably goes off air at this point..]

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:35:27 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Artie and Camilla Subject: If my heart is.... Message:

If my heart is my whole world then Australia is in the left ventricle and Europe is in the Vena Cava. My awareness of this awareness opens the channel to my grateful heart and allows me squirt out into infinte space on the jet of blood. Anth the Stupjid Gvet

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:27:22 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Artie and Camilla Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM*** Message:

Okay, we got to get a monthly newsletter going and get you two your own column, this is too damn good to archive. cheers, Deborah

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:55:30 (EST) From: Patrick Wilson Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com To: All Subject: EPO does publish misinformation! Message:

I was disappointed to see that on EPO there is a link on the ÔBest of ForumŐ which invites visitors to learn ÔWho was Hans JiŐs Guru?' There are posted 2 responses to one of mine (mysteriously not shown and made when I was ÔAnonŐ) which actually are extremely misleading in my opinion and make the same mistake I did donkeys years ago which is to conclude that the Radhaosoami guru called Swarupanand was Shri HansŐs guru. This seems to me to be conspicuously NOT the case (as can be seen by anyone you has bothered to read the early DLM literature and the biography of the Advait Mat Swarupanand as exists on JMŐs pages) and publishing this as if it were an authoratitive post is stupid. Even professor David Lane agrees (with Maharaji and I!) that the Swarupanand who is referred to as Shri HansŐs guru was the one from the Advait Mat group which are distinct from the Radhasoami ÔSwarupanandŐ although living at the same time. LetŐs get this straight. Even DLM admitted that Vairaganand, as a contemporary of Shri Hans - both being followers of Swarupanand - set himself up as the Advait Mat Swarupanands successor when the latter died. In the Advait MatŐs SwarupŐs biography it is clearly described when the Master indicated that Vairaganand would be his successor. Early DLM clearly were aware of Vairaganand as an ÔopponentŐ and sought to discredit him in their literature. Whoever put this in the Best of Forum section obviously didnŐt take the time to read my original post which explained the thing perfectly adequately. Clearly neither did ÔHappyŐ whose lengthy but inaccurate essays give credence to the accusations by premies that EPO publishes lies and misinformation. Get your facts straight guys!! If I was you I would remove these posts and put them in the Ôworst ofŐ section as they demonstrate what a mess you can get into when you reply authoratatively to someone whose more complete research and findings you havenŐt even bothered to read. I seem to recall that I was so dismayed that ÔHappyŐ had clearly failed to read what I had written and was so excited about proving that MaharajiŐs father was the Radhosoami Swarupanand that I simply was disinclined to reply. I just thought Đ nobody is so interested in listening to my reasoning so I give up. If you think his post is more correct you are making a mistake. Maybe you think attention to detail doesnŐt matter Đ I did. OK so maybe no one gives a shit about this stuff anyway ĐI donŐt blame them for that either Đ but I think it is pathetic that these posts of HappyŐs are put up as being ÔbestŐ when others, including myself have done quite a lot of research into this and already made a much better case for a perfectly clear but different history. Even though there are clear similarities and cross over of roots and ideas with Radhasoami, (which to Happy's credit are of course VERY relevant and interesting) it seems to me quite clear who Shri HansŐ guru was Đie. the Advait Mat fellow that Maharaji correctly indicates on his site. Date: Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 16:13:55 (GMT) From: Happy Email: None To: Anon Subject: on guru lineage Message: Hi Anon, I did not log in during the weekend, and was accordingly not able to read the replies to my post. I don't log into the forum everyday, in order to be able to do some work, too ... I always had a great respect for your knowledge in these matters. However, I am not convinced. Of cource it is always difficult to be 100% sure. But I'd still make a bet, for the time being, that the Swarupanand guru of the Agra branch really was Hans Ji's guru. The name, the dates (years), teaching, etc, everything seems to fit extremely well. Can you find historical evidence of any known Advait Mat guru named Swarupanand during the 20s-30s (the decades in question), for instance? I don't think so. Yes, I have read Jurgensmeyer, also David Lane. As you probably know, David Lane worked as Jurgensmeyer's research assistant in India, and drew up all the lineages in Jurgensmeyer's book. They certainly are the two best Western experts as far as Radhasoami lineages are concerned. Still, remember, David Lane has not specifically studied DLM. I don't really buy the suggestion that Hans ji had a guru from the Beas branch, like some people have suggested in the previous thread (e.g. Sawan Sing or Kirpal Sing), for a number of reasons. Kirpal Sing would be virtually impossible, since they were of the same generation and were competing gurus with each other. For the sake of chronology, Sawan Sing would perhaps be possible. But one thing (besides the difference in name, since it is clearly said in all DLM/EV sources that Swarupanand was Hans Ji's guru) is the difference in teaching. In the Beas branch, they have the teaching of five names of God (panj naam), which they don't have at all within the Agra branch. That would explain why Hans Ji was so angry when one of his mahatmas started to teach the five names during initiation, at one point. Another thing is that Hans Ji established the ashram Punjabi Bagh in Delhi, very likely to my mind modeled from Dayal Bagh, Swarupanand's ashram (note the ending Bagh). In the Agras branch, there was also the Soami Bagh. The ending Bagh was typical for ashram names in the Agra branch. A third detail, small but perhaps not necessarily insignificant: the dropping of the use of turbans, still in use among Sawan Sing's & Kirpal Sing's followers. Swarupanand wanted a modern image. I think it is beyond doubt that Hans Ji had considerably more in common with the Agra branch than with the Beas branch. You pointed out that in a certain DLM's text ( I have it in my library), it is mentioned that one Varaganand competed with Hans Ji about the successorship. Jurgenmeyer's book names a certain Gurucharandas Mehta (Mehtaji Sahib) as Swarupanand's successor in Dayalbagh. I would not put too much emphasis on this discrepancy. First, there may have been several competing successors, as often was, and still is, the case. Second, Varaganand may have been Mehta Ji's monk name. As you know, people often go under numerous names, and the DLM sources are not known to be especially reliable. There is no other source for this name. I would not make too much of it. You may be a scientist, I don't know. Probaly you are. I certainly am, and I am used to the principle of going for the most likely explanation until proven wrong. I don't think it is by any means proven beyond doubt that the Swarupanand of the Agra branch of the Radhasoami movement was Hans Ji's guru. But I suggest that there is compelling evidence in favor of this notion. And if so is the case, the whole lineage between Shiv Dayal Sing and Swarupanand is really established, thanks to Jurgensmeyer's and David Lane's excellent work. I think this is of great historical value. I may be wrong, and I appreciate being corrected if I am. Time will show. Anyway, it should be clear that Hans Ji had a clear connection to the Radhasoami movement, a fact that conveniently has been 'forgotten' or whitewashed within DLM/EV. This, I think, is the main point of interest, from the cult-busting point of view. Who his guru really was I guess is more a matter for the historical record. All the best, Happy. Date: Fri, Jun 30, 2000 at 19:22:04 (GMT) From: Happy Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The guru lineage before M Message: In a post about a week ago, Slackandsteel asked if anybody had information about M's father's life before he became a guru. In another post, Rob asked for information about the gurus that M himself has mentioned (on his site) as satgurus or givers of 'Knowledge'. I did not have time to answer then, and I do not have much information, but let me give a few comments based on what I know and have dug up from historical sources. Jean-Michel already correctly commented that the reference to Totapuri probably is a bluff, an attempt to link M to the in India highly esteemed lineageTotapuri-Ramakrishna-Vivekananda. JM also pointed out that Shiv Dayal Singh was the establisher of the Radhasoami sect in India. Another of the gurus mentioned, Swarupanand (their names are often spelled in different ways, with more or less titles added) was none less than Hans Ji's own guru. According to DLM's official version, Hans Ji was born in Badrinath, in Norther India, halfways between Hardwar-Rishikesh and Gaumukh, the place were Ganges runs out of the Himalayan glacier. It is very 'holy place' to Hindus, and whether he was born there may or may not be true, perhaps it is only part of a myth. The same source also claims that 'Born in the a Suryawansh, or sun dynasty, he inherited the greatness and the glamour of the Raghu dynasty. He was a descendant from the lineage of Lord Rama's family.' Well... believe it if you wish. A known fact is that his family name (and, accordingly, also Prem Pal's) was Sing(h). It suggests a Sikh descendency, but this is not entirely sure. All Sikhs are named Singh, but there also Singhs who are not Sikhs. It is a possible, but not a necessary link. Somewhere down the line, the family must have had a Sikh forefather, though. What is certain, however, is that he chose the Radhasoami guru, Anand Swarup, sometimes called Swarupanand, or Sarupanand, as his guru. Now, who are the Radhasoamis? They are a large sect, nowadays mainly based in both Agra and in the state of Punjab, the state which the Sikhs tried to make into an independent Sikh nation during the 70s and 80s, but failed in their attempts. They exist also in Uttar Pradesh, and in Bihar. And, nowadays, there are many followers in the U.S. As J-M mentioned, it was founded by Shiv Dayal Singh, in 1850, in the city of Agra (where Taj Mahal is), not in Punjab. However, Shiv Dayal Singh was of Sikh origin, and his family had moved to Agra from Punjab. The Radhasoamis did not appear out of nowhere, however. They had forerunners in the so called Sant (='saint') movement. The most well-known Sants were Kabir and Guru Nanak. Kabir lived in the fifteenth century, was born a low-cast Hindu, but was adopted into a Muslim family. He had a Hindu guru, Brahmanand,who was well-versed in yoga techniques taught within the Nath sect. Kabir himself did not support the practice of hatha-yoga, in fact, he poked fun at the Nath sect hatha yogis. Besides Brahmanand, he was also affected by the sufis living in Agra. Due to his dual experience of Hinduism and Islam, he tried to combine the best of the too, condemning the Hindu idolatry, but accepting their spiritual techniques. That is, in the Sant movement, there were no gods. However (with negative consequences, as we can see) guru-bhakti was encouraged. The Sant movement was in most respects a movement of mysticism, a mixture of elements from sufism and yoga. Hans Ji's admiration for Kabir is well-known, and one of the names he gave Prem Pal was, in fact, 'Sant'. It is not known for sure whether Guru Nanak, the founder of the Sikh religion, was a direct disciple of Kabir or not, but I would guess that he was. At least, he simply must have known of and probably also visited Kabir, who was the greatest name of the period. There are also striking resemblances in their teachings and poetry. Nanak was 20 years younger than Kabir. Nanak is, besides Kabir, considered the most important Sant, but to the Sikhs, he is of course the founder of their religion. Kabir's most well-known follower was Dharam Das, and there is still a subsect called the Dharamdasis. Their ideology is strikingly similar to that of DLM/EV and the Radhasoamis, including satsang, service (seva) and meditation. They meditate on the inner sound, 'SOHUNG'. Shiv Dayal Sing, the founder of the Radhasoamis, was a student of Tulsi Das, and also of Tulsi Das' successor, Girdhari Das. It was only after the latter's death that he established himself as a guru, in 1850. According to Radhasoami sources, Tulsi Das, in turn, was a disciple of Guru Govind Singh, the last of the ten Sikh gurus. Accordingly, there is an absolutely unquestionable link to the Sikhs, although the Radhasoamis differ in many respects from the Sikhs, and also have been persecuted by them. On the positive side, Shiv Dayal Singh himself did not claim to be perfect, although his followers claimed he was. Shiv Dayal Sing mentions several predessors in his writings, among them Kabir, Nanak, Tulsi Das, Hari Das, Sur Das (the blind gardener, you remember?), Rai Das, but also Mohammedans such as the sufi Shams-i-Tabriz, teacher of Jawal-eddin-Rumi. These appear to be sources of inspiration rather than direct predecessors. BUT, there is unquestionably a direct line of succession between Shiv Dayal Sing and Swarupanand, Hans Ji's guru. After Shiv Dayal Sing's death in 1878, their was - as there always appears to be - a fight about the succession. None less than six individuals established themselves as gurus: four in Agra, one in Beas, Punjab, and one in Delhi. They all agreed on the fact that Shiv Dayal Singh appointed someone as his successor, but they could not agree on whom. Today, there are 12 existing branches of the Radhasoami sect (some have merged, others have died out, etc.), and they are 13 if we add DLM/EV to the list, which we perhaps should. 14, with Sat Pal, M's brother. Two major branches of the Radhasoamis are usually considered to exist, though: The Agra branch, and the Beas branch (in Punjab). The Beas branch was established by Jaimal Singh (guru period: 1878-1903), and some of the most important names of this line have been Sawan Singh (1903-1948), Kirpal Singh (1948-1974), and, from another offshot, Jagat Singh (1948-1951), Charan Singh (1951-1990) and Gurinder Singh (1990 - present), who is now 'reigning' in Beas. The teachings within the Beas branch is somewhat different than within the Agra branch. For instance, in Beas, the teaching about the 'five names of God' exists, but it does not within the Agra branch. In Agra, there were also several off-springs, but the most important successor from our point of view was Rai Saligram (1878-1898), who also established the name, Radhasoami. From him stems the line to Anand Swarup, Hans ji, and Prem Pal. Here is the correct historical guru line from Shiv Dayal Singh to Prem Pal ('guru dates' in brackets): SHIV DAYAL SINGH (1850-1878) RAI SALIGRAM (1878-1898) ('Huzur Maharaj') BRAHM SANKAR MISRA (1898-1907) ('Maharaj Saheb') KAMTA P. SINHA (1907-1913) ('Sarkar Maharaj') SWARUPANAND (1913-1937) ('Sahebji Maharaj') HANS JI MAHARAJ (1937-1966) PREM PAL SING RAWAT (1966-present) ('Sant Ji Maharaj') And, if we go back in time before Shiv Dayal Singh, the lineage is likely to have been (but this is more debatable and difficult to establish with certainty): GURU GOVINDH SINGH - TULSI DAS - GIRDHARI DAS - SHIV DAYAL SINGH. Some words about Swarupanand, Hans Ji's guru. He was born by a Sikh father and Hindu mother. His father was a modern Sikh, who had abandoned the turban. As a youth, he was attracted to the politico-religious movement Arya Samaj, before joining the Radhasoamis. After becoming a guru, he established a 'divine village', Dayalbagh. It is still existing. Male Radhasoamis usually wear a turban, like the Sikhs. However, I would expect, although I do not know for sure, that turbans were not required in Dayalbagh, since Anandswarup was brought up modernly. Accoriding to DLM sources, Hans Ji received the four 'kriyas' (techniques) by a mahatma, suggesting that Swarupanand did indeed teach the 4-K package. This may be a post hoc construction, however. The only way to find out for sure would be to travel to Dayalbagh for some historical research. On his death, Swarupanand appointed (according to Dayalbagh sources) Gurucharandas Mehta (Mehtaji Saheb) as his successor. He 'reigned' during the period 1937-1975, and has since then been followed by Dr. M. B. Lal as guru (1975-present). DLM sources claim that Swarupanand in fact appointed Hans Ji. Apparently disappointed with the outcome of matters, Hans Ji left and started his own guru career. He went first to Delhi and spread K there, then to Punjab, the state with so many Sikhs and Radhasoamis, and to Sind, in present-day Pakistan. He travelled in most states of Northern India. The Divine Light Mission was established and registered under the Registration Act of India in 1960, in the state of Bihar. Its Hindi name was DIVYA SANDESH PARISHAD. Accordingly, there can be absolutely no question about the fact that DLM is an offspring of the Radhasoami sect. This is a fact that already Hans Ji tried to silence, and it is never mentioned in DLM/EV. The rewriting of history is nothing new, it did not start with Prem Pal and his brother Sat Pal. It started already with Hans Ji.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 14:10:01 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Our staff is paid how much? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 09:30:16 (EST) From: know all Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Re: EPO does publish misinformation! Message:

there were speculations that the radhasoami sarupanand was hans ji's guru , but now it is obvious that the sarupanand from the advait mat group is his guru. the radhasoamis think very lowly of krishna, to them he is an incarnation of kal, the negative power, source of the mind,only saints are above kal. now hans ji and sant ji would not have dressed up as krishna if they had been initiated into the radhasoami teachings. but eventually this has been clarified by jm's researches. yes, epo should remove the radhasoami stuff from their site, so no one will get into a controversy about it.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:30:32 (EST) From: Patrick Wilson Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com To: know all Subject: Re: EPO does publish misinformation! Message:

there were speculations that the radhasoami sarupanand was hans ji's guru , but now it is obvious that the sarupanand from the advait mat group is his guru. the radhasoamis think very lowly of krishna, to them he is an incarnation of kal, the negative power, source of the mind,only saints are above kal. now hans ji and sant ji would not have dressed up as krishna if they had been initiated into the radhasoami teachings. but eventually this has been clarified by jm's researches. yes, epo should remove the radhasoami stuff from their site, so no one will get into a controversy about it. Yes, I agree that some letters are misleading and should not be billed as especially relevant ie 'Best of'...but consider 2 things: 1) David Lane claims to have interviewed an elderly Mahatma who reported that Shri Hans had been initiated at some point by the famous Radhasoami Guru, Sawan Singh. My guess is that this was prior to being a follower of Sarupanand of Advait Mat if it is true. So there may have been a tangible connection and cross-fertilisation of ideas. 2) Also there are huge similarities and apparently 'borrowed' customs between DLM and Radhasoami and Advait Mat. An example of this is that at the 'Palace of Peace' in 1974 there was a motto written over the door -which I was told was the DLM Motto - it said 'Work is Worship'. This is the very same motto that the Radhasoami community had in their model city at Dayalbagh according to Mark Jurgensmeyer's book -'Radhasoami Reality'. Also there were numerous paintings of all their saints and Gurus- many more than Maharaji now has on his website. Also the Radhasoami's did the same meditation techniques, same service, same Satasang, believed in their Satguru etc. etc. just like premies and Advait Mat followers. In fact I would say that the similarities far outweigh the differences. Therefore my vote is that EPO should continue to draw attention to these similarities because it emphasises how the practices and beliefs of DLM and Maharaji were by no means unique or uncommon at that time in India - In fact it highlights the fact that the were many SatGuru's in different movements who basically gave extremely similar teachings and whose followers meditations were hardly inferior although premies would probably like to believe theirs was unique and superior. The telling thing is that all these 'premies' of the various Masters all believed that their Guru was The Master - although apparently their beliefs had some more room (than the recent premie view of only the One Master being alive at any one time) for concurrent living masters. They apparently got around this by saying that there were different grades of master -the highest being called some special name - 'Paramhansa' or whatever and that they didn't neccessarily get in each others way. Of course the DLM idea was that Shri Hans was this 'greatest of all incarnations' -and then Maharaji and so on. A current hugely telling but generally overlooked discrepancy is that M's own brother Satpal has a big following himself and also is 'recognised' by his flock as their master. I'm sure they all have 'meditational' experiences that confirm for them that he is actually the legitimate successor to Shri Hans. It seems really un-divine that Maharaji can't even agree with his own brother about all this. At least these former 'greater and lesser masters' had the decency to often get on and give each other some credit. The simple truth is that premies these days must believe that Maharaji is speaking the truth and Satpal is lying or wrong. That is if they have dared given it any thought whatsoever. My opinion is that premies generally actually take some perverse pride in the fact that they resist the temptation to think about these things in any depth. The fact that Ron Geaves is apparently uninspired to 'go there' and talk about it is because he has made his mind up that his destiny is inextricably tied up with Maharaji so all the 'strange unlikely things' that exist around Maharaji are true to him- He can see by virtue of his experience that M is special above others. Others are supposed to drop the matter- or 'Walk' if they don't understand. I have occasionally seen on television, so-called intellectuals who abandon all scholarliness and common sense when they are called upon to defend their religious beliefs. Their beliefs are thus truly irrational and they are effectively schitzophrenic in the sense that they have a highly developed rational life and an irrational one as well. And never the twain shall meet! My impression of religious beliefs - including premies beliefs about M - is that the thing that they all have in common is that they are SO unlikely to be true. Nowadays I feel the need to heed what IS likely so that I can avoid becoming a person who deludedly believes in some particular God. As soon as one investigates the history of the movement one can see WHY people have adopted these beliefs and this goes some way to looking at the thing objectively enough to not be so subject to the programming and wishful thinking. It takes guts to consider these things. To those that defend the validity of the irrational I would say that irrational experience is fine as long as one doesn't try to pretend that it is otherwise.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:55:57 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: We all make mistakes. Patrick Message:

Shit, I used to think this chubby little Indian Geezer was Jesus come again for twenty odd years. But my really big bloomer in life was walking out of a Bob Dylan concert in 1966 because he came on with an electric guitar and I thought he'd sold out. Anth, 'Ah but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now.'

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 07:10:11 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: AJW Subject: Demoted to Jesus? Message:

'I used to think this chubby little Indian Geezer was Jesus come again for twenty odd years' You were obviously a weak premie. We real devotees knew that he was The Father who would not let his children enter the fire. How could you think he was Jesus come back when he told us that he is here with more powers than ever before. And when he was into fast cars, an obscenely indulgent lifestyle, using premies as shmatters(Yiddish for rag), even complained about that sports car premies bought for his birthday(the complain was that the back seat was too small to have a fuck in)....yes Anth even after he kicked many of us out in the street...even after all that we knew that He was The Father testing us.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 12:34:39 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Jethro Subject: They all look the same to me Jeth. Message:

As Bob Hoskins said in 'The Long Good Friday', 'Perfect Master? Give me a Cortina any day mate.' Anth, publishing more misinformation.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:51:37 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: EPO does publish misinformation! Message:

I remember reading this when it was first posted and thinking what an excellent piece of work you guys were doing even if I couldn't keep it all straight in my head as to who was who. Like you say, it is a little hard to be very concerned over the whole lineage thing because, IMO anyway, they are all authoritarian gurunoids lording their supposed divinity in a fuedal manner. I suppose John or J-M would be happy (no pun intended) to correct the wrong information. Like you, I think it is important to be as accurate as we can be, good job on correcting the record, Patrick.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:38:37 (EST) From: Jerry Manderingh Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Discrepancy? Message:

Sorry, I might be a bit thick, but could you explain this part of your post: Even DLM admitted that Vairaganand, as a contemporary of Shri Hans - both being followers of Swarupanand - set himself up as the Advait Mat Swarupanands successor when the latter died. In the Advait MatŐs SwarupŐs biography it is clearly described when the Master indicated that Vairaganand would be his successor. Early DLM clearly were aware of Vairaganand as an ÔopponentŐ and sought to discredit him in their literature. You seem to be suggesting here that Vairaganand was designated by the Advait Mat's Swarupanand as his successor not Shri Hans. Meaning that neither school (Radsoami or Advait Mat) clearly designated Shri Hans as a successor. However you are obviously arguing that Shri Hans was the successor to the Advait Mat's Swarupanand. Wuzzup?

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:27:27 (EST) From: Patrick Wilson Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com To: Jerry Manderingh Subject: Re: Discrepancy? Message:

Jerry Wrote: You seem to be suggesting here that Vairaganand was designated by the Advait Mat's Swarupanand as his successor not Shri Hans. That is what the Advait Mat 'official' biography indicates. You can read it all on JM's Indian roots pages on EPO. Check out the book called 'Paramhans Advait Mat'. Here's part of what you can read on the Indian Roots page: --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ....It may not seem so surprising therefore that the 'Advait Mat' book does not anywhere mention Shri Hans Ji , even though he is claimed by some to have been the successor to Sarupanand. The book clearly paints a different version of events, whereby Sarupanand is described as appointing a disciple named 'Shri Swami Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj' as his successor (see pages 244-247 of the book). It is probable that the current Advait Mat group do not recognise Shri Hans as a bonafide successor to Sarupanand. Neither is it likely that they will recognise Shri Hans' eldest son Satpal (formerly known as Bal Bhagwan Ji), who also has a following today, both in India and the West. (His followers are almost certainly not as numerous as those of his younger brother, PremPal). Divine Light Mission published their own history of events in 1970. It can be seen from this extract that they were keen to present Shri Hansji as Sarupanand's chosen successor and Vairag Anand as the scoundrel-like imposter. Later, a very close disciple of Maharaj Ji disclosed the following incident. Once, all the disciples of Dada Guru (other name for Maharaj Ji's guru) were sitting together in the presence of their master. The Dada Guru lifted Shri Maharaj Ji's hand and declared to his disciples that they should follow Hans after his death. The story has an ironic end. A small group dominated by one Varaganand disobeyed their Master and after his death declined to follow Shri Maharaj Ji. Varaganand claimed the property of his late Guru and set himself up as his own right. Shri Hans Ji Maharaj was not attracted to the perishable wealth of this world, having already been bestowed with the divine property of Ram Nam. So, accordingly to the commandment of his Master, he started propagating the Holy Name. (Excerpt from 'Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj', Published by Divine Light Mission in 1970, B-19/3, Shakti Nagar, Delhi 7, India - Page 3) --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Jerry then wrote: Meaning that neither school (Radsoami or Advait Mat) clearly designated Shri Hans as a successor. However you are obviously arguing that Shri Hans was the successor to the Advait Mat's Swarupanand. Wuzzup? You can see from the above quote what DLM's version of events was and presumably still is. Certainly Advait Mat don't seem to mention Shri Hans anywhere in their literature - at least I can't find any reference to him. I am neither arguing about the legitimacy of Vairaganand or Shri Hans as successors to Swarupanand. What I am saying is that from what paucity of information we have, it would seem likely that Shri Hans indeed was a follower of the Advait Mat guru and not the Radhasoami one who happened to have the same name and live at roughly the same time. (ie 1930's). I wrote to Ron Geaves about this ages ago when he described on EnjoyingLife how he had met an old Mahatma who had also been a follower of Sarupanand and who remembered Shri Hans. Here's what I wrote: Dear Ron, You probably don't know me, although I believe that I may have met you in the past. Mike Finch (whom I'm sure you do know) and I started Brighton Ashram together in the late 70's. He used to tell me about the lineage of Maharaji and kindled some interest in me back then. At present there is some general discussion amongst premies here, and the so-called 'ex-premies', who have drawn me on the subject since I have done a little of my own research which I have attempted to share. I have no idea whether or not any of this is true, but I have merely presented the results of my enquiries to those who are interested. If you can clarify anything about the subject all well and good. If not - so be it. I would stress that as a non-academic these days I have no pretence of my extremely limited investigations being a scholarly exercise - it has been merely an interest that came from my personal desire to find out some true background on Maharaji and his roots, for personal reasons. I do not seek to scandalise or to diminish the reputation of any of the Guru's concerned, dead or alive, or their followers. I am just fascinated that, around these Masters, there is a historic pattern of disagreement at high level as to who is supposed to be the next one! It was for these reasons that I was interested to read of your emotive meeting with Akhand Yoganandji. He sounds like a venerable old fellow indeed and what a shame he passed away before you could see him again or the premies could get a sound-byte. Whilst I have no reason to doubt that Akhand was telling the truth, I have also read a biography of Swarupanand - the book called 'Paramhans Advait Mat'- where he is most elaborately described, appointing a mahatma called Vairag Anand as his chosen successor, a gentleman who indeed went on with the mission in Guna afterwards as far as I can see. I have this book in front of me here and it says, black on white, that Swarupanand appointed this Vairag Anand to be his successor, and it describes by name and at great length all those present and the time and place when this happened amongst many other things. Do you know what Shri Hans' given name was? - as a mahatma of Sarupanand that is? In this book, there are listed literally dozens of Mahatmas names amongst which I have found no 'Hans'. Should I be looking for someone else? I gather that Divine Light Mission saw the other mission that ensued with Vairag Anand at it's head after Swarupanand died, as a bogus mission as it were - with a self-proclaimed but unrightful leader. I see that the early DLM literature supports this stance, accusing Vairag Anand by name as being a scoundrel who ran off with mission money or some such words. I would love to know what actually took place, but the more I enquire, the more that I am frustrated, since the 'split' seems to have produced two distinctly different camps with conflicting versions of events. I spoke to Professor David Lane a while ago (he is a fairly well-known scholar of Indian religious groups in the USA -also an initiate of a Muktananda was it?) who referred me to the book which I now have in my possession. Lane told me in an email that he too met an old mahatma (also of Swarupanand I seem to remember) who merely recalled that Shri Hans had been chucked out of an ashram for some scandalous reason to do with women I presume - he used the word 'sex' actually. Lane rightly commented that you can't believe everything you hear in India. So that was not so helpful. Now, taking everything that Akhand Yoganandji told you into account, and considering that the Advait Mat biography goes into such very extraordinary and lengthy detail about Swarupanand's daily life (this book is pretty thick!), and DLM conversely seem to have rather little to offer as historical documentation of Shri Hans' past with Swarupanand, it would seem plausible that Shri Hans, although a devoted and beloved follower of Swarupanand, may have gone off and done his own thing at some stage - possibly even unaware that Swarupanand had appointed Vairaganand or even that the former had died. Is there any evidence to suggest that this book I have is merely a work of revisionism I wonder? It seems to me that some attempt to seek out and question living members of Advaitanand's and Shri Hans' followers, or other people who were around, would be helpful to determine better what actually happened back then. The best result would clearly be to find and interview people who witnessed these events who were impartial observers since DLM and premies are naturally eager to confirm that Hans Ji was the rightful guru and the other lot to prove their man etc. I guess this is now a remote possibility. Also, do you happen to know who Akhand Yoganandji's guru was after Sarupanand's death? or even more recently? At the end of the day I recognise that to make judgements about a Guru's worth by coldly analysing the historical context is not entirely appropriate. Of course there is almost always a dispute that arises within the family of these Guru's when the Master dies. Maharaji himself is clearly not exempt from this principle since his brother Satpal seems to be convinced that Shri Hans intended him to be the next guru! There is a page on his website which is about Shri Hans. For me, knowing the roots helps me a little to understand and come to terms with something that has been a singular influence on my life since I was 17 years old. I still practice the meditation but wonder whether this guru business isn't more down to social and human dynamics, than the 'Divine' manifesting as one particular authoritative person -as is the suggestion. Whilst I acknowledge that Maharaji as a teacher is loved and trusted by many including your good self - I have unfortunately had an increasingly hard time coming to terms with the 'surrender' aspect of his philosophy which I feel hurt me a lot in the past. That's another story though! I hope you don't mind me writing to you about this. Sincerely Patrick Wilson Ron replied that there were a number of points that I had raised that 'require considerable analysis' and that he would need to find time to discuss them them all properly in order to do them justice.He added that he was not sure that he had the time to do so at present.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 03:56:17 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Just a note Message:

Hi Patrick, I mentioned David Lane(re:lineage) to Ron Geaves(in our last conversation) and all Ron said was that 'Professor Lane has made an academic mistake'.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 07:42:11 (EST) From: Patrick Wilson Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com To: Jethro Subject: Re: Just a note Message:

Jethro wrote:Hi Patrick, I mentioned David Lane(re:lineage) to Ron Geaves(in our last conversation) and all Ron said was that 'Professor Lane has made an academic mistake'. Yes, I remember you saying this. So perhaps he would care to explain what David Lane was mistaken about. He can't expect to be taken seriously unless he a least backs up his accusation with some explanation can he?

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:31:27 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Re: Just a note Message:

I agree. Now is an excellent time for Ron to explain. Let's see if he's got any balls. (In my experience 'professional' academics are a bit like politicians who won't directly criticise any of their own party.)

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:24:42 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Patrick -- That's uncalled for Message:

Take a deep breath, maybe take a valium or a cup of coffee, and send J-M and John an email and they will fix whatever problem you have, I have no doubt. They are both doing the best they can and aren't perfect. Your title: 'EPO does publishes misinformation' is just a tad dramatic, don't you think? I'm sure there was no intention to misinform and also no need to make hysterical claims of lying or misrepresentation either. And what's with all the 'funny faces' after those 'masters?' Is that some kind of comment on their validity? :)

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:45:57 (EST) From: Patrick Wilson Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com To: Joe Subject: Re: Patrick -- That's uncalled for Message:

Take a deep breath, maybe take a valium or a cup of coffee, and send J-M and John an email and they will fix whatever problem you have, I have no doubt. They are both doing the best they can and aren't perfect. Your title: 'EPO does publishes misinformation' is just a tad dramatic, don't you think? I'm sure there was no intention to misinform and also no need to make hysterical claims of lying or misrepresentation either. And what's with all the 'funny faces' after those 'masters?' Is that some kind of comment on their validity? :) --- Not totally un-called for Joe. The dramatic subject heading had an exclamation mark in front which you seem to have failed to notice - that otherwise might have conveyed to you that the comment was made partly in jest although, since I have been banging on for a while about this subject and get met with yawns and disinterest, I was naturally incredibly pissed off to see that the EPO editors favoured Happy's response to my comments which were not even represented. The funny faces just pop up irritatingly - it's not my fault if it's Gerry's idea of fun to have his forum pepper my posts with his pestilential little icons.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 12:22:11 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Forum Ownership Message:

Patrick, Gerry doesn't own the forum. He just works for free to keep it going. It's not an ego trip. Its a fucking chore. Honest. Anth, who used to be a chorus girl.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 21:35:31 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Yawns and disinterest Message:

Not so Patrick,I for one found those posts in the archives whilst I was trying to understand as much as possible about all this,& before I made my 1st post on the internet. They were another nail in the coffin of my unexamined assumptions about the P.Master lineage. If the torch goes all the way back to JC et al , how come it got fucked up in the 1930's? It is all very confusing though.I thought that Swarupanand must be the now long forgotten Sir Swaroop,knighted by the British for his efforts in building a city on land expropriated from some insignificant Raja, & incidentally using up the energies of several thousands who might otherwise have been out on the streets rioting. Seems not : there were 2 Sarupanands,& Hans had something to do with the one who didn't get invited to Buckingham Palace. You can't expect to get a great deal of feedback from such research because hardly any of your readers know anything at all about the subject. If your contributions in this area have been omitted, then of course you should point it out. All the best:Pat Dorrity

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:13:15 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: PatD Subject: How did that gargoyle get into my signature [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:41:29 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: PatD Subject: Re: How did that gargoyle get into my signature Message:

It appears when you put a capital p (P) next to a colon : See :P now you try it

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:46:16 (EST) From: :PatD Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Thanks. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 21:12:29 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Re: Patrick -- That's uncalled for Message:

Hi Patrick, yes those pesky icons. It is a pain when they show up unintentionally in message text. The software substitutes the icons for certain keyboard combinations automatically if I have the icon toggle on. I could turn it off, that's certainly an option, but I might have a mutiny on my hands if I did! :) = ;) = :( = :o = :) = =) = |D = 8) = B) = :D = :p = ()) = ;) = :( = :o = +) = -) = :C) = ~) = :| = =( = :'( = }) = }( = :_ =

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:21:31 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: gerry Subject: gerry-lets turn it off Message:

while they were fun at first, those icons have become a distraction and a bug that detracts from serious entries when we are trying to write ordinary english. let's take a vote among the regus and see how everyone feels. it's not like we can't use emoticons after you turn off the faces. we still have the original keys, and we can be sure they show up where we want them and nowhere else.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:39:33 (EST) From: Francesca :o Email: None To: janet Subject: Oh no, Mr. Bill!!! ~) Message:

Please don't turn me off!!!! :o)

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:29:38 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe...about the smiley faces... Message:

Some of the emoticon codes are created when used before a parenthesis, that's all. :C)

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:57:01 (EST) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: All Subject: I f-e-e-l gratitude! Message:

I woke up this morning and wondered just what I was feeling last night. I'd read a good portion of John MacGregor's post on the trainings on the train on the way home, and had a bit more to read. It was dark out and it was Friday night. I was enjoying the walk home, after sitting at a desk most of the day, indoors. I have a husband who is my good friend who was probably already home and had let in our three dogs, who are my babies! I felt a mix of emotions, but I figured out what one of them was this morning as I was waking up. GRATITUDE. Gratitude that I am not in a freaking cult. And because what M was doing seemed so awful, gratitude that I moved out of the ashram in 1982, smelled the coffee by 1985, and had been out of its clutches for over a decade. Walking home in the dark, I knew that Maharaji had absolutely no influence over me, and that he hadn't for years. I cannot believe what those people in the trainings are going through. Grown adults, more powerful than me in the business world, crying like the children of an irrational, alcoholic, abusive father. Meekly suggesting that they apologize to him. FOR WHAT???? Good grief! The fact that they think they have to apologize to him instead of getting together and telling him off is sad indeed. It must be because of all that 'no doubt' and 'thinking is your enemy' stuff. They certainly didn't get where they are in the world today, in a position where they can blow of $1,000 on a training, plus hotels for two days, by not using their heads. Yes, I feel grateful. I only hope that some of those cowed, abused individuals who can't find their own guts and minds will feel grateful someday, too. --Francesca

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:46:46 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Goober's Achille's Heel Message:

TAXES Imagine having to pay back taxes on thirty years of cult aquired income. The Fraud Rawrat has collected funds for years, using them for his personal aggrandizement and in violation of US Tax laws. How can this jerk claim Church status while all the time screaming he's not a religion, has no doctrine or dogma and no membership. These are the very specific criteria for this special tax-exempt status. It will be easy to prove Rawrat is in violation, IMO. Hell, they put Moon in jail. I'll bet our Pal Prem is headed for the big house for the very same reasons. YUP, I BET RAWAT GOES TO PRISON OVER THIS BEFORE THIS IS ALL OVER. I hope they send him to McNeil Island Federal Pen. Then I could drop in on him during visitors day and cheer him up with a little satsang from the heart.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:32:26 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: gerry Subject: You're hilarious Message:

Hi Gerry, I hope they send him to McNeil Island Federal Pen. Then I could drop in on him during visitor day and cheer him up with a little satsang from the heart. That's what we do best, Ger Speak from the heart... ha ha ha In my heart, I want to see him to do time, as well. Let's get that Treasury Dept. campaign underway.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:33:21 (EST) From: Tim G Email: None To: gerry Subject: I'll be the fly on the wall.nt Message:

yipeeeee

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:40:31 (EST) From: Zelda Email: None To: Tim G Subject: Taxes vs gurus- Centerpoint Message:

Re the post by Sleuth down below - I looked up Centrepoint- and found they are/were in the middle of tax troubles too. the New Zealand tax law says: Chapter 3 - Current law Part II '3.1 Whether an entity, be it a trust, incorporated society or a limited liability company qualifies as a charity entitled to tax concessions depends on whether it meets the following tests: * It must have been established exclusively for charitable purposes.3 * It must have been established for the benefit of the community as a whole or an appreciably significant section of it ('the public benefit test'). The courts have exempted charities for the relief of poverty from the public benefit test. * The charitable purposes cannot be carried on for the private pecuniary profit of any individual' and I found this: Advancement of religion 3.15 With respect to the advancement of religion, there is no distinction in case law between one religion and another or one sect and another, so the advancement of any religious doctrine could be considered charitable. The advancement of religion simply means the promotion of spiritual teaching in a wide sense. In Centrepoint Community Growth Trust v CIR15 Tompkins J found that the trust, which had as one of its purposes the advancement of the spiritual education and humanitarian teaching of Herbert Thomas Potter, was charitable as being a trust established for the advancement of religion. For the purposes of the law, the criteria of religion are the belief in a supernatural being, thing or principle and the acceptance of certain canons of conduct in order to give effect to that belief.' The ex followers are suing him for money donated to the organization. his other achillies heel is paranoia Z

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:47:03 (EST) From: Joy Email: None To: All Subject: Training Conference at IHQ circa 1976? Message:

Reading John MacGregor's post about the current EV trainings has brought up a vague memory for me of attending something similar around 1976 at IHQ in Denver. It was some sort of 2-day IHQ conference designed to facilitate 'understanding' or . . . I can't really remember the purpose of it, but imagine it must have been something similar to the trainings John describes, only probably less intense. I do seem to remember Maharaji spoke at it initially, then we were left to break up into groups of about 10 for some sort of further processing work or whatever. I guess these types of training things have gone on for many years, then? I was fortunate enough to land up in the group with Bob Mishler (my only personal contact with him, what a warm and lovely guy he was) and I remember us all in that little group having a whale of a time, coming to some cosmic realizations or other about how people needed to function like a wheel, individual spokes, but one unit; then as the discussion progressed I noticed how everybody in the group (we were sitting on the floor initially) had laid down on their stomach and were facing the center, similar to a wheel. This elicited great excitement amongst everyone, we all cracked up and had some sort of amazing realization, considering ourselves incredibly cosmically synchronised (yeah, right) and I remember everybody in the room sort turning and looking at us because we were having so much fun. I don't remember attending any further conferences after that, they were probably more for the management than us worker types, but got to attend that one and considered myself fortunate to be in the 'privileged few' for once. Anybody have any further recollections about that conference and what it was all about? It was so long ago I really can't remember much about it. Michael Dettmers or Michael Donner? Richard? Were you guys there? What do you recall? Anyhow, that was an amazing, amazing post, John (if you're reading this), thank you so much for writing it! Love, Joy

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:28:07 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Joy Subject: Re: Training Conference at IHQ circa 1976??? Message:

Yes, I was there too and I recall thinking 'wow, Mishler's group is having fun so it must me OK to have fun.' That sounds pathetic now but I was glad that GMJ and PAM's like Mishler were becoming more relateable. These workshops were put together by Mishler, I suppose, as part of his agreement with GMJ to come down to our level. It has been documented on EPO that GMJ agreed with Mishler that he needed to be more down-to-earth and be honest about who he was. Mishler reported that GMJ renegged later because it would decrease his income. 'What about me?' was the way he put it. Unlike the Training Sessions described by John McGregor, the late 70's workshops were facilitated by a professional (Jerry someone) who specialized in early versions of the 'Team Builder' type format popular today. The workshops were egalitarian without the top down structure noted by John. There were no monitors, scapegoats or expectations other than creating a more effective IHQ. We were encouraged to say whatever we wanted. I was in a group with Mark Lawson who was head of accounting. My complaint was that the executives got to have suits and I didn't. Again, pathetic but that's about all that bothered me at the time. It was a good life with 3 hots and a cot plus full time service at the Kittredge Building. Too bad we were living off the hard work of community premies at the time. A belated thanks guys. I'm sure much was left unsaid at the workshop but as a first effort it was successful. The result of the IHQ workshops was a more cohesive working environment at DLM in Denver. Later, when I went to my brother's wedding, I got a suit. Had these workshops continued, disharmony would have been expressed bit by bit and the current implosion of EV would have been averted. But M decided he would not step down and get funky with us mere premies. I'm guessing the workshops were canned because they placed too much emphasis on us as individuals. In a come-back move in 1976, he decided to wear his Krishna crown in Atlantic City causing a new wave of messianic zeal. Not to mention the torment of folks being pressured to move back into ashrams at a time when we were getting humanistic and actually having relationships. How totally unsurrendered. Richard, who looked pretty damn good in that powder blue Night Fever suit.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 01:14:26 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: Richard Subject: I woz there too Message:

but having just flown in from my South American tour of duty, with a year in Spain before that, I was in culture shock, and the experience of the workshop was one of the weirdest of why life. I was in a group with Joan Leahy. I remember MJ really being very nasty to that small red-haired premie. This was the first time I had seen him nasty I think.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:20:21 (EST) From: Joy Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Yes, Maharaji was Nasty Message:

I remember that small red-haired girl, Jan Buchalter, I think her name was. She lived in the 1560 Race St. ashram with me for awhile. I actually had quite an appreciation of her towards the end, she was more devoted to Maharaji than anybody I could think of, absolutely worshipped him. I tended to look at that instead of the ways she did not fit the typical premie mold. It's absolutely disgusting that M was rude and nasty to her in front of everyone, someone who lived and breathed for him and loved him beyond all measure, and clearly had some emotional problems to begin with. He makes me sick to my stomach.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:57:03 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Joy Subject: Re: Yes, Maharaji was Nasty Message:

So once again, it was/is not the amount of devotion one has for M, but how they fit in with the EV image and the their bank account. I wonder if she would have been treated so badly if she had gotten a big, fat monthly trust fund check?

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:13:51 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Why he was nasty Message:

I remember asking myself at the time why MJ was picking on Jan (who, BTW, seemed to be doing quite well last time I saw her more than a decade ago). It was as though there was something in her vibe that was a bit 'different' and he was kind of compelled to bully her into submission. And although I think she was moderately feisty, the group pressure and her underlying devotion made it possible to humiliate her in this way(I think she was being banished back to COLL). In other words, it sounds a bit like the scapegoat syndrome John described - pick someone who has the type of personality that can be broken down easily. And get the whole group to collude or get picked on themselves. I was in a state of cognitive dissonance, having just arrived from the joyful ashramic playing fields of South America. Where was the merciful, adorable, all-loving lord whom I had been serving and telling people about and singing the praises of? It's interesting that for some premies, it's okay the way he is at these events. It fits so well into the wife-bashing syndrome and various other family dysfunctionalities, as the other Katie was saying. When you're in it your prime directive is to survive and gain power and acceptance within the group. When you're out of it, you can hardly believe you allowed yourself to be kicked around like that. Generally I think that the climate of our culture is moving towards more and more recognition of these kinds of abuse syndromes. People are getting more educated, and it has to leak into the premie world. In fact, that's probably why so many are leaving. If MJ had just left well alone and concentrated on being cute and coy at programs, things would probably have gone on longer, but it seems he's quite out of balance - a raging control freak. Blimey!

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:46:46 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Richard Subject: Maharaji TRASHED those 'workshops' Message:

In the tape of the Atlantic City Coordinators Conference in 12/76, Maharaji absolutely trashed those 'workshops' as being just 'MIND.' He singled out "Denver" as being so spaced out and so into their minds, that he said when he did the program there in July, 1976, he felt zero vibe. Of course, that was the beginning of the most extreme messianic/fanatically devotional period of M's entire cult, except perhaps for now. It might actually in a sense be worse now. I found what John reported absolutely terrifying and extremely dangerous for anyone who might consider going through something like that. The message of total submission and obedience of Maharaji is the same, except it seems even more overtly manipulative than what it was then, and then, and the mindfuck is so much worse. BTW, I just remembered I have to get a tape of the Atlantic City Conference ti CQ to get it transcribed. The transcript should definitely be on EPO.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:36:19 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: About that tape... Message:

Hi Joe, I am willing and able to transcribe the tape. Is it just m speaking? I don't know how I'd identify other voices. What format is it in? Email me if you'd like to send it to me, what format it should be in...plus, I'd love to listen to that thing. sylviecyn@yahoo.com Luv, Cyn

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:06:45 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: About that tape... Message:

Actually, part of the problem of sending it to cq is that he's in the UK and it would be easier to just mail it to you. Thanks so much. The tape is first just M speaking and then people start asking questions (also, he goes around to the various community coordinators and asks how things are.) Let me warn you, it's really horrible stuff. That's when he says the moving out ot he ashram and getting married was equivalent to blowing your brains out with dynamite, and he laughs while he says it. Very sick. I'll email you and get your address, okay?

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 17:48:56 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Joe Subject: Food for the Mind Message:

Yes, he did trash the workshops, Joe. And they certainly were 'MIND'. It was our minds talking instead of submitting to the status quo according to GMJ. He shut it down fast, not wanting us to actually think for ourselves. In late 1976, when Bob Mishler and many of the IHQ execs 'walked', there was a real wave of unreality. How could they do that? I asked someone, who also had become a 'non practicing premie', what was going on. Their answer I recall vividly: 'You don't want to know. It's just food for your mind.' All these years later, upon reading EPO and Forums I - VII (yes, it's true), my mind finally got the feast it's needed all along. One of our responsibilities here and with EPO is to continue serving up Mind Food. Richard, cheeseburger, cheeseburger, chip, chip, Pepsi, Pepsi

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 17:11:08 (EST) From: RichMandrake Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe..Do get those Tapes Transcribed, please...(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:24:57 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Joy Subject: I think those were 'Workshops' Message:

Hi Joy - We did those workshops (they weren't called training) in the DC community too. I remember that they were a lot of fun - and because we were in small groups, we had a chance to interact with people that we didn't know very well. No way were they as intense as anything John described! But I think the workshops were part of what was later called the big spaceout - we only got to do it once. Hey, hope you're doing well - Love, Katie

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:38:09 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: All Subject: What will he do next?? Message:

For what it's worth, I don't think M is going to lay down and die. There's no challenge in that. A fight energizes these kinds of people. If I understand the thread on the new PR person, she/he (?) is advocating a new kind of corporate crap that hasn't taken hold in the U.S.? Do I have that right? If so, my money is on an adapted version hitting EV right now. The fact Erika's site is closed and the no show at Hans Jayanti, are key. The Philladelphia program is going to be a telling night. M hasn't been very nice to American premies lately. Everyone is fed up with his traveling the world but not the U.S. There were the Thousand Oaks and Portland programs, then an east coast thrown in and to keep the Indian premies happy, the secret one at Universal studios where they had 'meet and greet' ie darshan and sang arti. No english people were allowed. All service pwks were kicked out for the program. Only Dunrite was allowed in but they would be x-rated wouldn't they? No, I don't envision M giving up the ship. I envision him pulling a complete reversal, and adapting this new PR crap to suit his evil needs. Plus, remember, he set in motion along time ago that absence makes the heart grow fonder. Nope he's a master alright, a master at switching the rules of the game to suit him and what we are about to see is just the beginning of a new episode. He'll probably start being nice. He'll probably start treating the PAM's with kid gloves. Once abused, all that child wants is love and validation from the abuser, until they can see for themselves the manipulations. The biggest thing that we can do is for you really smart people to keep figuring out his next moves and posting them here, so his antics are documented.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:54:52 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Vicki Subject: He'll fade away to Disneyland. Message:

Hi Vicki, The Captain is in no position to determine his future. He has no choice about what's happening right now. If it was up to him, the lion would be shagging the lamb, and everyone in the world would be worshiping him by now. The Captain, and all his followers, all wear a ball and chain. No matter how enthusiastic and energetic they get, they can't move. They get all fired up, scream 'Let's go.' Take a leap and fall flat on their faces. You lay there, blaming yourself and your lack of effort. Everyone gets up and tries to think of another plan. 'I know. Let's all apologise to the Captain.' It's a crazy Mickey Mouse world, and it's self destructing. Somehow, out here on the internet, somone gave it a tiny push, and it's all falling apart on its own. "The Emporer's New Clothes" is the perfect analogy. The next stage will be getting rid of the assets. He's got loads of ongoing financial commitments. It costs a fortune just to keep a private jet stationary in a hangar. He's got outgoings all over the world, and a dwindling band of people willing to donate, who are getting hit for more and more cash all the time. Something's got to give. He's already got folk taking out massive personal loand, then handing over the cash to him. It can't go on. Everything that brings in money will keep going until it withers and dies, like the video events, sales of junk, etc. I think he'll be forced out of seclusion to do darshan lines again soon (another big new wave revival, "Now he's really manifesting as the Lord again" etc.) They'll probably dust of the papier-mache Krishna crown, and have plastic jeweled coronation. Nothing pulls in the cash like a darshan line. And we prefer cash. Things are getting desperate in the cult. It's bound to be affecting the Captain personally. He absolutely can't take any form of criticism whatsoever. Criticising the Captain is a very bad career move. The voices are getting louder, and premies are slowly waking up from a mediocre, pointless dream. So, maybe his kids will end up supporting him when the premie gravy train finally grinds to a halt. It's running on empty at the moment. There are of course, unknown factors that could change everything. If the allegations of people taking suitcases full of darshan cash out of countries, then maybe sometime he'll get hit with a massive tax bill. And then there's the possibility of a lawsuit from sexual abuse victims, who were abused by cult officials. Plus there's the big can of worms about what the Captain did about it when the reports were first made, and what his responsibility was, and is, on several levels. There are a few mines floating around which may yet go off, and spoil the fun in the Captains Mickey Mouse world. Anth, making it up as he goes along.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 07:00:31 (EST) From: Vicki to Anth Email: None To: AJW Subject: Good Summary Message:

I hope you are right. If he is worth $50 million, then in the U.S. on a mere 10% interest return, and his should be higher, that works out to $400,000.00 dollars a month. So why does he need to fleece the premies? He could finance EV himself. But he won't. I'd love to know this new PR firms fees. In retrospect, that was the first drip for me. I couldn't understand why the Lord of the Universe needed to use an outside PR firm to spread knowledge. But I just hung on to that 'feeling' and kept 'surrendering' and kept believing in the yellow brick road.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 12:43:01 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Vicki to Anth Subject: Stuff Message:

Well, maybe I'm wrong, but it was generally in the same time frame that things started changing. There was all the church lady stuff, every piece of paper had to go through EV for approval, we were given scripts for every word that came out of our mouths ie at events, on our local phone lines, you name it, there was a script for it. EV had it's own pr dept but then an announcement came out, perhaps on First Class, that they had hired the services of an outside pr dept, and if memory serves me right, possibly some sort of professional writing/script something or other. Then the Visions stuff got real slick. You don't think the Visions folks are that talented do you?!!! They were always phobic about the press getting in to an event. If I ever had to go through another what-to-do-if-the-press-arrives briefing I think I would have gone mad. Terry Yingling and Linda Gross ran around the Santa Monica program with special badges on so we could all send the press to them. Of course we even had scripts on how we were allowed to tell the press to go to them. But the thing is, why would EV need an outside PR source to deal with the press? They never showed up. They were never interested. Maybe once in Miami but that was all I ever heard about it. Try and get an article in the newspaper about him here in the U.S. No one is interested. So it makes more sense that a pr firm was used to instigate all the image changes. If someone had to be a mc even at a local event, there was a script to go with it that had to be memorized. Every stinking thing had a script to go with it. Every service, err participation, that a pwk did. I once asked Ira Woods a question and he didn't have a scripted answer so he refused to answer me in front of a room full of people. It was all done in the name of synchronization. It's rather funny that after all this synching up there's more people leaving and hardly any new people from the U.S. I'd say they didn't get their money's worth. Unless of course, it was just another shell corporation operation.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 12:15:01 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Vicki to Anth Subject: What's the PR stuff Vicki? Message:

Hi, I read something somewhere else aboutthe cult PR department. As far as I know, it's been done by an 'outside' company for years- although it was a premie who worked for the company who took charge of the account. It's the worst job in the cult. The purpose isn't to figure out a way to sell the taste of snot, it's to limit damage in the media. Anth the hack

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:43:10 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Let's have a Really Smart People meeting Message:

The biggest thing that we can do is for you really smart people to keep figuring out his next moves and posting them here, so his antics are documented. Would you be willing to serve refreshments, Vicki, if we did have a meeting? You could get in that way and kind of listen to what us Really Smart People were taling about (not that you'd understand it all, of course). VICKI, I'M KIDDING! YOU'RE BRILLIANT! -- just wanted to say that.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:46:28 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm smart Jim. Message:

It only took me six months to notice that the browser details are on display, then complain. Ask Gerry. Anth, who thinks IQ is internet chat software.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:27:56 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim , you're funny! Message:

Thanks for calling me 'smart' but I know my limited capacity to understand this stuff and it is limited to mostly the feeling end of it. I can sense things and am intuitive, but honestly, to figure this stuff out and nail it to the wall as you all have here, no sireeeee. I'd still be trying to figure out how to get to Philadelphia without flying if it weren't for you people of perseverence. Refreshments? I can make a proper pot of tea which I tried to convince Anth there should be a contest for with the winner getting a trip to London, but that was OT! Ummm, salsa, great white wine turkey (husband never was veg), great scrambled eggs and wonderful mashed potatoes. That's about it. I nearly burned down the ashram while house mum. But you said, serve, not cook, so ya! Count me in. Do I have to pay for any glasses I break?

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:42:09 (EST) From: Smart People Email: None To: Jim Subject: what used to be foot kissers! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 08:49:54 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: All Subject: Hey FA. Message:

Shouldn't the 'browser type' be switched off? Or is this just more glasnost? Anth the just browsing.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 11:52:03 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Hey FA. Message:

Anth, they warned you you'd go blind if you kept that up, now look at you... The browser types have always been displayed and there is no way to shut them off with this software. If you are concerned about being identified by browser type, use Proxomitron for anonymity.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:02:19 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: gerry Subject: Shit Gerry. This is seriously bad. Message:

Fucking Hell. This is serious. If they know my browser type, it might help them find who I really am. How will rubbing this 'Proxomitron' cream on myself stop them sussing me out? Does it change my fingerprints? For some reason, I have problems emailing you. (Outlook gets involved, and I've been scared to open it since the St Valentines day I love you virus in 2000. Anyway, did you get an email from me recently. I know I asked you this below, but I fell of the bottom of my chair before I could read the reply, and I was in the archives before I knew it. Take care and keep up the good work. Anth the Ginn PS Some people get acid flashbacks. I get FA flashbacks. "Aaaagh. The browser details are showing." That caused riots on F5. I just panicked. You know how it is Gerry, once you were in touch with something pure and holy...now you're writhing in hell, typing out poisonous bile from a tin shack in the boonies...shooting songbirds from the patio...looking for something beautiful to destroy...I guess that's old age for ya.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:22:40 (EST) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Hey FA. Message:

He could get a special browser for fun only

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:36:44 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Ben Lurking Subject: Only if... Message:

Only if it will help conceal my true identity. Anth the Anthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 08:00:20 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: All Subject: this is what K is about Message:

nada

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:10:12 (EST) From: Does anyone know what % Email: None To: All Subject: of the cult members Message:

have paid their money and submitted themselves to re-education? Is it open to any pwk or are they using the 'by invitation only' scam(i.e. you have been deemed qualified to fork over your money, congratulations)?

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:28:16 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Does anyone know what % Subject: Re: of the cult members Message:

What has been taking place, at least up until I left a few months ago, is a regional, condensed version. Some 'trained' people from EV and an Instructor have to come, and there are mandatory materials from EV that must be bought by each person. It's up to the sponsoring community how much it will cost, as the EV fees are $40.00 approx, then the plane fares and hotels, food for staff, rental of a building with specific layout, catoring if necessary, etc etc etc. divided up between the attendees. I left before my community put this shinding on, so I don't know how intense it is compared to the live M version. I know there has to be an expensive piece of audio/visual equipment rented that is used for inneractive role play. The live version with M required filling out a form filled with all kinds of questions, including, something like will you be willing to pay $1.000 plus two days in a hotel, etc to cover expenses? I put 'no' and was never called. The Michael Nouri video is actually the promoting video for the traveling version of a training. It's billed as a training to help pwks tell new people about knowledge, not this absurd thing. When I watched it, I wondered when he was going to get to the brass tacks of exactly what we were supposed to do. He never did. Now I understand why. It isn't about teaching how to do propogation, it's about keeping pwks at the feet of the master through humiliation and degradation.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:39:41 (EST) From: Thanks Vicki Email: None To: Vicki Subject: very helpful info [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:41:35 (EST) From: Sleuth Email: None To: All Subject: link to above story Message:

http://www.crime.co.nz/c-f-cat.asp?cat=462

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:18:10 (EST) From: Sleuth Email: None To: Sleuth Subject: Wups. Link to below story [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 11:00:00 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Sleuth Subject: keep to one thread [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 11:45:42 (EST) From: salam Email: None To: bill Subject: bossy are we? Message:

what's the difference, up, down, all the same.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:09:23 (EST) From: Sleuth Email: None To: salam Subject: Re: bossy are we? Message:

thanks salam. Bills' NT hurt my feelings - believe it or not! (it was a mistake anyway)

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 09:18:36 (EST) From: salam Email: None To: Sleuth Subject: Re: bossy are we? Message:

don't let them bullies push you around, you wanna say somethin, you say it, and if you want to repeate it, you go ahead and repeate it, yes? Oh hi bill, wazup?[in case you are reading]

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:37:10 (EST) From: Sleuth Email: None To: All Subject: Child Abuse around a god Message:

| main | news | security | policing  Main > Child Abuse > Bert Potter -The Centrepoint Community  crime Bert Potter -The Centrepoint Community --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- RELEASE FOR POTTER Bert Potter was released from jail on March 30, 1999. In a recent interview he said that he did nothing wrong and still believes that sex is appropriate with minors at the start of puberty but will follow the terms of his parole to avoid further jail time. Under the terms of his parole he must have no contact with a child under 16 years of age. He has returned to Centrepoint. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- WHAT WAS CENTREPOINT? Although Centrepoint is classified in New Zealand as a religion, it is unique in many ways. Members consider it to be a spiritual community, with a belief that spirituality flows directly from their constant contact with Bert Potter. To understand this more fully, one has to look firstly at Bert Potter, the self appointed guru of Centrepoint. BERT POTTER – BEFORE CENTREPOINT Herbert Thomas Potter was born in Christchurch on the 20 May 1925 to parents Fanny and Dick, preceding younger brother Lyndsay by five years. He studied engineering at Christchurch Technical College and at the age of 16 joined the Home Guard. After his school days were over, he was accepted for Air Crew Training through the Air Training Corps. He never saw battle in the Second World War and after a brief stint working in New Zealand returned to the armed forces, where he was posted to Japan. Upon returning to New Zealand he worked as a clerk for the Department of Labour, and enrolled in Otago University to study education and political science. He worked part time to support himself and during this period met and married his first wife, Leteia. They moved to Tauranga and Bert began his own business - prompting a further move to Katikati. The business was not a success so Bert resumed teaching. In search of opportunities and money the young couple moved once again to Auckland, where Bert became a top salesman for the Electrolux vaccum cleaner company. Buoyed by his success, he went onto to form a carpet cleaning business and then later on pest control. At this stage his first son John was born and his family had grown. Pest Free Services was a rapidly growing business that kept the family in a good lifestyle. Around this time he attended a Dale Carnegie course, which was to inspire him to run similar courses – often encompassing psychotherapy for clients in need of more personal advice. Following the arrival of their daughter Anne, the Potters adopted another girl - Karen, and four years later the adoption of a further child named Ross grew the family to 6. After the unexpected death of his boss, Bert decided to change his lifestyle once again. Interested in human psychology, he attended the Esalen growth centre in California for three months. Upon returning to New Zealand he gave up his business and decided to pursue a career in therapy. This led him to Dunedin and the setting up of the ‘Shoreline Human Awareness Trust’. What Bert termed “encounter groups” met at his home for nine-day sessions which lasted 11 hours each day. During this period, Bert’s marriage came to an end and his wife filed for divorce. Bert’s groups were ‘delving into different behaviors’ and Bert’s wife’s stated reason for their separation was that she did not believe in his new path. Bert, after selling his home and business, moved into Gillies Ave, Epsom, Auckland along with a group of people with like-minded attitudes. This group went on to later form what we know today as the Centrepoint Community. Around this time Bert made a journey to India to meet a renowned guru named Rajneesh. During this time his plans for a self-supporting community were being formed and on his return he held meetings on Tuesday nights to promote his concepts. Many found the idea appealing and after pooling their funds started looking for suitable land where the community could be founded. Finally in 1977 Bert put down a deposit for a 30-acre block of bushland near Albany, Auckland. They applied with the local council for permission to start a community on the above-mentioned land and Centrepoint became a reality. CENTREPOINT BEGINNINGS A small farmhouse on the land was the first abode for the founders of Centrepoint and other families and singles camped in tents nearby. The initial months, with members adjusting to communal living, weren’t without problems. Plumbing, sewerage and living accommodations all had to keep growing to meet the community’s needs and lack of funds due to members leaving paid employment meant that the group had to set up a pocket money system where each member was given a weekly allowance. All personal property became the community’s when anyone joined and often the greatest source of revenue was from new members liquidated assets. Meetings were held once a week and these often led to therapy sessions as members fronted with their feelings. Around this time the first child was born at Centrepoint in what was to become a regular occurrence of communal births. All members were asked to attend and support the mother as she gave birth. A child crčche was established on the land and older children attended the local school. People seeking this alternative lifestyle came and those finding it difficult went, while Bert encouraged the devotees to express whatever they felt - both emotionally and sexually. There was a freedom of choice and many couples found the greatest test in having an open relationship where sexual experimentation with other partners was encouraged. Communal counseling was a large part of Bert’s philosophy and many found themselves revealing all their hidden secrets. In 1978 the Takapuna City Council denied the Centrepoint community the right to live on the land, and so began the first legal battle over the right of members to live as they had chosen. CENTREPOINT BATTLES OVER THE LAND The appeal the community had lodged against the Council’s decision allowed them time to begin implementing plans for developing the site. However before they could legally construct any more buildings, permits were required - which were not forthcoming. At the planning tribunal conditional use of the land was granted, with the building permits now free to be issued. The tribunal stated that only sixty people were permitted to reside at Centrepoint, which at the time already had 58 residents. In effect this denied the residents the right to any further children or to marry outside the community unless they left. CENTREPOINT GROWS Centrepoint continued to grow far beyond the specified number set by the tribunal. During this time members started living in car crates on the land and the original farmhouse was raised to build a main lounge underneath. A spate of births occurred and the commune found it required a full time nursery so in 1979 a crčche was started with everyone taking turns looking after the young children. Marriage also was becoming popular. Some members worked outside Centrepoint and the money provided from their wages was used to keep the bills paid. Finally Centrepoint broke even in 1981 and longhouses were built to house up to 25 people and children. These consisted of a long room where members slept side by side. A film was made in 1980 by Television New Zealand called ‘Centrepoint - A Spiritual Growth Community’. This caused great controversy and most New Zealanders watching feared a cult was forming in their midst. Shortly after this a Centrepoint member committed suicide on the property - overdosing on valium and a curare derivative stolen from her workplace at Auckland Hospital. Following the trail of bad publicity, Bert organised speaking engagements and appointed a public relations officer to project the right image for the community. THE LEGAL BATTLE CONTINUES In April 1981, Centrepoint applied to increase its allowable numbers for people living there to 300. Although they were confident in relying on their status as a religious community to help pave the way, this was not too be. The Council received many objections including sworn testimony by an ex-member regarding the sexual practices within the community – including allegations of child sexual abuse. The Council in November of the same year turned down the application telling members they were not seen as a religious organisation. After this, two of the founding members, disillusioned, decided to leave - and many followed. One had been one of the therapists for the group who set up her own group soon afterwards. Bert reapplied to the Council which bought them more time, but in the end the outcome was still the same and they were once again denied the right to house more people. In October 1983 an amendment bill was passed through Parliament resulting in Centre Bert is quoted as saying “Every belief is a block to growth and must be questioned”. point being fined $10,000 a day for violation of the limit of people legally allowed to live there. The council threatened to enact this - forcing the Centrepoint members to rent two factories in Glenfield, which they moved into to all stay together. In December, the owner of the property obtained an injunction to evict them from his property effectively rendering the group homeless. A marae was offered over the Christmas period and they moved in with a promise to be out by New Year. This started a period of living in buses and renting two houses from a gentleman believing in their freedom of living arrangements. They were duly forced to move out of these houses too - once the Council threatened to sue the owner of the houses for allowing the community to live there in illegal co-habitation. Later they found a barn to live in and launched a peaceful protest. Once again they were moved on from their own form of communal living in the barn by local authorities. On June 19th 1985, after a series of long legal battles, Centrepoint was granted the right to have 224 members live at the commune in Albany - with a special landuse designation ending the squabbles about whether the community should obey the law relating to boarding houses or the law relating to hospitals. CENTREPOINT BELIEFS Centrepoint was seen as a spiritual community by its members and was led by its guru, Bert Potter. The predominate principle is to liberate people by challenging them to experience everyday issues in different ways. This was evident in the open sexual practices within the community – with encounter groups meant to strip members of their vulnerability and allow them to open themselves to other members. This was done in intense seven-day sessions often with little sleep - the belief being that after these groups members would feel completely in touch with themselves. In order to achieve this it was taught that you had to surrender yourself completely to the process. Bert Potter believed he was a god and all of us are gods to ourselves. Bert is quoted as saying “Every belief is a block to growth and must be questioned”. It was also said that to live at Centrepoint you had to live in Bert’s way and let go of your own power to shape and form your destiny. Centrepoint had a minimal use for rituals with a couple of spiritual meetings each week at which Bert would give a talk on anything that he felt was right at the time. He would encourage members to open up about any resentment to other members. Bert’s beliefs were influenced by what was out in the spiritual marketplace at the time. He would study new forms of therapy and experiment by applying these to his groups. Centrepoint also ran a therapy centre in the Auckland city centre at this time, more conventional in its approach to clients. Bert used to give his members tasks to emotionally free themselves. One such reported task was a woman who believed she was unattractive to the opposite sex and so was told by Bert to sleep with every man in the Centrepoint community before Christmas day. Ex-members say this was merely a suggestion from Bert and was up to the individual member whether they did it or not, however because of his position many argue that a suggestion from Bert held more weight, becoming a direction from the revered guru. Family groups were also held to help with any family problems. Children were allocated a member of the community to talk to, and had to choose someone that was not a family member. However the benefits of this are highly speculative due to later behavior made public. OPPONENTS TO CENTREPOINT Early opponents of Centrepoint pointed to the danger of people joining a community where their lives were controlled by Bert Potter – a self confessed guru. It upset a lot of established religious groups offending them as they felt that no one had the right to take on the status or mantle of god. Many rumors of free sexual favors and child abuse were whispered in the early days – which later would unfortunately prove to be valid fears. Bert is quoted as saying “I believe children should be allowed to grow up from birth through to adolescence having sexual experiences appropriate to their own level”. This statement is, in itself, an omen of what was to come and the next ten years of Centrepoint were to see six members prosecuted for child sexual abuse. So ends a brief history of the first ten years of Centrepoint - an interesting pre-cursor to what was to come. CENTREPOINT – ALLEGATIONS & CONVICTIONS Bert Potter was convicted on drug charges on Anzac Day 1990 in the Auckland High Court and sentenced to three and a half years jail. Charges came after a search of Potter’s home in the Centrepoint community yielded LSD and Ecstasy. Potter prior to this had always appeared to be a crusader against the use of drugs, and this was to lead on to more serious allegations being made regarding him having sex with minors within the confines of the community he ran. In 1991 Centrepoint was again the site of a police dawn raid, this time leading to the arrest of six men and two women on indecent assault and rape charges spanning the period between 1978 and 1984. Centrepoint had experienced large growth in membership just prior to the arrests, and the trials in the Auckland High Court concluded with members of Centrepoint convicted and facing prison terms. The convicted men were: (all ages are stated as at the time of being found guilty on the associated charges) Bert Potter, aged 67, charged and convicted of indecently assaulting five minors. His victims were as young as 3 and a half years old. He was sentenced to seven and a half years in prison in November 1992. Keith McKenzie, aged 71, charged and convicted of indecently assaulting a minor. He was fined $2,500 and later struck off the medical register, as he was a registered doctor at the time. David Mendelssohn, aged 48, charged and convicted of indecently assaulting three minors. He was sentenced to four years in prison. Ulrich Schmid, aged 52, charged and convicted of sexually assaulting two minors. He was sentenced to one year in prison after a retrial. Richard Parker, aged 45, charged and convicted of attempting to rape a minor. Sentenced to four years and five months in jail. Henry Stonex, 51, guilty of indecently assaulting a minor. Sentenced to nine months jail. A later conviction followed as victims told their stories, years after the events took place. Kenneth Smith, 75, charged and convicted of indecently assaulting two minors. Sentenced to 200 hours community service and had to pay damages to each minor of $1,500. January 1995 – North Shore District Court. All the names of the children involved and their testimonies were suppressed. The victims came together in March 1990 to make their complaints following a meeting organized by one of those subjected to the abuse. In 1998, in reaction to police confiscating computer equipment from Centrepoint after finding pornography stored in it’s database, Sarah Smuts-Kennedy (NZ actress with a high profile) voluntarily spoke out about the abuse she had suffered at the hands of Bert Potter. She is concerned that the community is still operating and the same thing could happen to children again. CENTREPOINT TODAY Centrepoint is still located in Albany, Auckland. It is reported that its members are now two very separate factions: One group still believing in the spiritual leader, Bert Potter, and awaiting his return following his release from prison in March 1999. A government report in 1997 found that Potter still appears to be controlling the community from his jail cell. The second group wants change and the abolishment of the rules that anyone entering the community must give up all their assets to Centrepoint. Centrepoint has now been placed in the hands of the Public Trust Office due to the Centrepoint Community Growth Trust being heavily in debt and without any income. The land, which is owned by the Centrepoint trust is valued at $10 to $20 million, but feuding between the members have led to no clear way of paying their debts and progressing. Former members are now asking for their contributions of money and assets they made to the community back.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:26:52 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: All Subject: My right to tell Rawat he's wrong Message:

I was going to call this ''Independence and Criticism'' but it sounds so pompous. Basically it's a ramble - what's been going through my head since John McGregor posted his latest essay. McGregor said that he had the right to criticize Chairman Mao-araji. He then went on to qualify that in a gentlemanly fashion by saying that he had earned that right. Well, not all of us are gentleman. Some of us are Americans. Ever since the US told Brit Royalty to take a hike part of the secret unwritten constitution has been that the rich and powerful are fair game. Most Americans I know wonder why the hell people in other parts of the world (which shall remain nameless due to the sensible ban on politics here) can't just dump their princes and chieftains and high holy whojimeflips let alone not be able to criticise them. Well, anyone's fair game but especially those who got rich in iffy ways. Criticism is the way to keep the rich in their place and don't let them start getting ideas that they are the ruling class and try to run the country. Everyone here knows that free speech, which usually means criticism, counts for more than votes. Criticism is how you make sure that no one starts thinking that they are god and that is a big temptation for the super rich as well as nuts like Charles Manson and Jim Jones. Which brings me to Chairman Mao-raji. Now, what I can see with Chairman Mao-araji is this; he arrived in the US 30 years ago as a Kabirite of the Radhasoami school. Kabir was a Hindu orphan adopted by Muslim parents. When he reached manhood he decided to check out his Hindu roots and got himself a yoga guru. From yoga he took a few important ingredients. One was the four gyanyoga techs (which were taught as a means of attaining god-consciousness by his guru as was the tradition) but he did not fancy Hindu pantheism and instead preferred the Muslim idea of god, Allah, the formless one who cannot be named, similar to the Hindu Brahman who is formless but manifests with millions of faces because each human being is a part of the body of the nameless one. Another important Hindu concept that Kabir merged with his Islamism was bahkti yoga, union with god through devotion and service to the guru. In this tradition guru and premie are equally god. They are lovers united in a dance between Shiva and Shakti, Krishna and Radha (whence Radha-soami, or lover-knowledge.) God is love, bliss, satchitanand. Even today there are a few gurus in India who have regular jobs and support themselves and are often roundly criticised by their devotess just as if they were members of the same family. Traditionally the guru was simply the most respected and trusted person in the village, usually a yogi but not always. Some gurus are bus-conductors or postmen or school-teachers. Radhasoami changed all that. It came about as a reaction to Christian proselytization in the 1800's. In opposing Christianity it actually adopted some Christianity: brotherly love, the Golden Rule. The monotheism it already had in common with its foreign competition. What it did not have that Christianty had was messianism or the belief that god had manifested only once in the form of Jesus. Radhasomai still believed in many avatars. This is the religion that Rawat Senior inherited and passed on to Junior. Junior arrived in the west with these concepts: everything and everyone is god but guru is greater than god because he can reveal god. Why, dear old dad told me so. What dear old dad also passed on to Junior was an inflated sense of self-importance. I have a sneaking suspicion that Senior did think that he was the messiah. Junior may also have that fatal flaw. The old man was in his dotage when Prempal was born, He spoiled him rotten as only rich Indians can spoil their kids. Prem was cute as a button. Junior copies dad. Dad is high as a kite on bliss and full of Hindu hyperbole. Thinking that you're god is easy when you're high. I frequently did on LSD - maybe not THE creator but definitely hip to it. Prem probably also was feeling pretty high too. Meanwhile back in the the UK and USA loads of people were trying to understand their LSD experiences and along comes Leary and Alpert. Alpert finds a guru Maharaji and writes ''Be Here Now.'' Leary reads the Tibetan Book of the Dead and writes ''The Psychedelic Experience.'' The Beatles bring a funny little geezer called Maharishi back from India and we're all primed for Hinduism and the next thing little Rawat arrives with a three-ring mahatma circus AND a Holy Fucking Jesus HH Family! and some great new vibes and the next thing we've all cut our hair, stopped taking drugs, bought second-hand suits from the Salvation Army shop and gotten jobs. Rawat's doing his thing and we're doing ours and it looks like it's the same thing for a while but all the cars and planes start smelling more like the GOP than LSD and, before you know it, you're hooked on ''that feeling'' and are convinced that the lack of democracy in the cult and the guru's unegalitarian behavior, though anathema to your psychedelic convictions, is all a lila. Oh wow, he's teaching us to like money I suppose and not take pollution, aprtheid and Vietnam so seriously. It's all maya anyway. No, Rawat and I were never doing the same thing. He was doing his thing - getting rich and I was doing mine. But ''that feeling'' was making me compromise. It was soooo nice and everybody, especially Rev Rawat, said it was THE feeling, THE truth, god. Well, it was the best thing I had without drugs so maybe it was god. And I spent another 28 years thinking it was and compromising my values. The kicker of course was that somewhere along the line I swallowed Rawat's BS about his being the giver and creator and source of ''that feeling.'' My messianism kicked in and forgot that we are all god (if you are a Hindu which I no longer am) and started to think of Rawat as IT. Yes, CW and Lovejoy are right to criticise me and say that I was stuck in my christian concepts. They and Rawat knew all along that he wasn't THE god but just one of them guru thingies from India where they believe that we are all god and he's just the Boss because he showed us that. To them they are not revising history when they down-play the Hindu hyperbole of guru being god. They think of it in the Hindu way and we in a Judeo-Christain way. Of course it is currently verboten to talk too Hindu like that in the cult. In fact I am convinced that there is no way a premie can currently explain Rawat in the west. He has sent them so many mixed messages that they are no longer confident of their ideas. Finally he has told them to shut up completely and let him do the talking via tapes etc. Very ''evolved'' thoroughly modern PWKs don't have concepts of course so it is all moot. It's all nudge-nudge, wink, wink. They rely on propagating by giving people a taste of ''that feeling'' which is why they cannot function in a medium such is this which is all words. Their vibe does not come across and they have relied on that for so long they are at a loss for words, real words. We have not heard the last about ''that feeling.'' It's what keeps premies enslaved to Chairman Mao-raji. We'll be hearing a lot about it if ever the remaining diehards start to post on the forum. It's hard to accept that you've been the source of everything you've ever felt when you've been told for 30 years that Rev Rawat is the giver of that gift. If Rawat just admitted his Kabirite religion and stuck with a few devotees and fessed up that he made a mistake by over-reaching and attempting to be messianic; if his few remaining devotees stopped thinking that they had to ''propagate'' and just relaxed and enjoyed the guru-worship and foot-kissing - if that happened, I would stop criticizing Rawat or premies and let them get on with their religion. I honestly don't care what consenting adults do in private. It's none of my business. As long as Maharajism is messianic and involved in ''propagation'' I will attack him and criticize him and lampoon him and attempt to discredit him. His messianism is an abomination in the eyes of sane, democratic people. As long as he tries to spread his BS (belief system, thanks Deb) I'll oppose him. He is wrong.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:21:09 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: All Subject: A posting from Ex-satsangi site Message:

I thought some readers here may be interested in this site put up ex-Rahdasoami followers. here is the post: I don't know Bab, you profess to champion objectivity in your search for the truth about RSSB and Gurinder. Somehow I wonder if enshrining pure objectivity is unattainable; for to be human is to have a point of view in great part based on one's experience. Yet somehow when the rubber meets the road on a variety of tangibles that directly correspond to fraud and manipulation on the part of Gurinder and RSSB, you shut down....end of discussion...no comment...if pressed, you don't have the evidence on video tape so it dosn't count etc. I can only assume something in your personal life is blocking the correlation of all the theological reading you do and APPLYING it to RSSB and Gurinder and the whole Godman scam. I really don't want to play pop psychologist and get personal, but I feel like you have consistently discredited my information, a good portion of which I have corroborated with documentation. Yes, I do take crude shots at Gurinder. Too bad. I have disclosed some of the personal tragedies in my circle of long time friends as a result of this manipulative exploitation and there is a huge amount I haven't disclosed, it is private. You have characterized many of the ex's you have come in contact with as jilted attention seekers, and your experience has been very gentile from what you have described. It hasn't distrupted your life, your children, your finances. Consider yourself lucky. If you don't happen to know people who it has dramatically effected in this manner, you are just plain fortunate is all I can say. Maybe you need to do some more digging and dialogue over at the Forum VII at the ex-premie site. There are many sophistocated, knowledgeable ex's who blast thru the veneers very well. Collectively they have been thru the wringer with organizations SET UP EXACTLY HOW RSSB OPERATES AND FUNCTIONS and there is much insight to be gained. The notion that this can be cleared up to your satisfaction with an examination of 'the books' is beyond naive I must tell you honestly. (Divine Light Mission is a cousin of RSSB). I appreciate your posts also and I am trying to give you honest feedback. ctd The URL is http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/exsatsangisupportgroup

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:02:29 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Jethro Subject: That's interesting Jeth'. Message:

I've had bits of communication, on and off, with ex-members of other groups. It's amazing how much we have in common with them. Why, it's almost as if they all came from a place where setting up this sort of scam has been tried and tested over a long period. Good hash isn't the only shit to come out of the Himalayas. Anth, merged, then came back again, because Earth is better than Heaven. (Otherwise, why would God have bothered creating it?) I rest my bag of crisps.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 23:58:11 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: Trainings compared to ITPs Message:

As a part time instructor, I’ve been a part of ITP in the late 80s and early 90ss (refreshers). From what I understand reading John Macgregor’s post, M finally refined his ‘training’ techniques, institutionalized it and applied it to everyboody doing service/having a position in his organization. By refining, I mean he ‘improved’ a couple of things, like putting more pressure on attendees, used video techniques, uses professional assistants to help him etc It’s been all described in the Instructors Handbook Mein Kampf (reproduction of my copy) that’s been on EPO since 1997. I guess he realized that if it worked for instructors, he gathered it would work with everybody else. This is where this idiot screwed up IMO. It ‘worked’ (more or less) with instructors as we were maybe the most fanatics of the group and most of us ex-ashramites – and we wanted to have more of the old stuff anyway, but it couldn’t work with most PWKs who were not already so ‘programmed’ by years of ashrams and dedication, and still have some brain. Like most Ps would never have joined the ashram. Most Ps doing service or involved in the organization don’t consider K (even though they say so) as the only thing in their life, and/or are not ready to do so. I guess that sort of mind control techiques work only if it’s applied all the time, like it was in the ashram, with a lot of pressure in your day to day life. That couldn’t be applied to most Ps of course, the failure was unavoidable I guess. Poor premies ……

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:10:58 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: WoWee - The true qualifications for an Aspirant Message:

JM, this is a gem of propaganda. Hey, for all of those who didn't have time to read the Instructor's Manual, let me highlight the juicy wuicy parts: The true qualifications for an Aspirant. a. The person must be sincere. Sounds reasonable wouldn't you say? b. The evaluating instructor must be able to sense, without a reasonable doubt, that this person will continue to make effort. Why? They're paying for the knowledge session. c. Also, without a reasonable doubt, will continue to enjoy the Knowledge process. Since when is Knowledge process? Sounds like it's a hook. And, if someone hasn't received knowledge, how do you know they'll enjoy it? Hmmm, sounds like they are looking for preconditioned expectations, to me. They have already bought the carrot and will psychologically impart an expected pleasure. d. Will continue to participate to the best of their ability. Participate means do stuff for Maha without pay, this is quite a condition, wouldn't you say? READ: Looking for suckers. e. Will have the necessary reverence and understanding about the teacher. Wowwwww Nellie! Reverence? Understanding? About the Teacher? f. Will practice Knowledge with discipline, care and the necessary conviction. See above (e.) g. Will have the openness and concern to continue to evolve. What? Continue to evolve? This is crap on a stick. h. Will have the commitment towards themselves, the teacher and the process. In other words, YOU, the teacher and the process are ONE. This is not so simple, is it? i. To have the openness to evolve with the directions of the teacher. This means, willing to live with revisions, if and when need be. Evolve with the directions of the teacher? I've heard better psycho-babble in my day. That's a non-sensical statement. j. To give the Knowledge process a high priority. Higher than your career, social security, family, friends, your own life, in other words. k. To place the triangle above the rest. Triangle? I must missed that one. Funny thing, Maha has forged a triangle between premies and all areas of their lives. l. To be concerned about his or her relation to the teacher. READ: Live in fear with his or her obsession with the Teacher. *Refer to John Mc's latest post. m. To place the teacher, and his guidance in the Knowledge process, above all. See, the final line says it all. It is the accumulation of all inspectations. But fear not, this is still not a cult.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 06:21:28 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: do you remember Message:

am i going ever going to get the 'booklet' back? I would like to have it. ()) How are you? Thanks again for your hard work. I envy your determination.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 08:53:13 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: salsa Subject: Salsa? Which booklet? Message:

are you talking about ?

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:41:10 (EST) From: Tonette Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Just was talking with a premie tonight Message:

Maharaji is my 'whole life,' end quote. The history of his mission on EPO and the posts of his former followers on the internet are, 'lies, lies, lies.' And she did know about Jagedo, but in her words again, 'I'm going to go see him in Philadelphia anyway.' Sickening and morally bankrupt. Fight the good fight and keep the faith like they say. Tonette

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:12:23 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Had a similar conversation recently Message:

with my one premie contact, her angle was that nothing you say will affect my experience or what I know. Curious since I was talking about jagdeo with her, not her experience, and especially since sher knows I'm not anti the practice of the techniques. It was the end of the line for me with her, even when I said to her, what if it had been your daughter? She replied, I don't know, almost guaranteed she would still not have let it affect her belief systems. But it's not a cult eh, what a joke.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:01:54 (EST) From: Tonette Email: None To: hamzen Subject: I should exercise more compassion Message:

Sometimes I wonder if it's wrong to topple somone's spiritual pillar. The premies I know are not PAMs, don't donate much money, go to a program only if it's conveinent. In other words they are not going to be your Amaroo crowd or the big time donators. Why do I even bring up the subject? They certainly don't! Their belief really should be none of my business. They aren't hurting anyone and from what I can tell do not seem to be suffering. Am I no better than a Christian telling a Jew that he is going to burn in hell because he doesn't believe Jesus Christ was the divine son of God? The difference is that premies are in a cult and cults have shown to be in the past to be harmful to your health, to say the least. M's cult is no different and in my eyes equally dangerous. There's the potential here for some really awful shit happening. Frankly some awful events have transpired. Not the least of which would be the raping of children for pete's sake! Wake up premies! I need more compassion for your plight and I am quickly losing my patience. Read the history, look at the documents, check out the posts from reputable people who were there, saw it. Take a look at EPO. And then tell me it doesn't matter because you are having a nice experience. Tell me M shouldn't be held accountable for some of this shit! And then I will be able to tell you that you have some real character issues as well as being in a cult. Regards, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:49:37 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: VERY interesting, JM! Message:

That sounds like a very astute observation, JM -- that M pressed too hard too indscriminately on 'general' premies in these trainings. But 'Mein Kampf'? That's hilarious!

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:46:41 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Thast Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:38:13 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Jean-Michel... Message:

I remember once wanting so much to be an instructor. I am so happy that never happened. I remember the late 70s at Deca, the poor premies who were in the 'instructors program' who would leave at the end of the day looked so tired and so upset. I am so glad you saw through all of that and have had the courage to be so forthright on EPO. You are a gem, J-M. I know it must have been awful, those sessions. For you to call your copy of the material Mein Kampf says it all. Be well, J-M, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:05:42 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Wanting to be an instructor. Message:

Hi Cynthia, I wanted to an instructor so bad, I'd rejoin the cult again if offered the job (provided the wages and conditions were OK) Mahatma Anthji, patron saint of pipe dreams and procrastination .

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:09:05 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: AJW Subject: Anth, Proper Wages?..I Want Back Pay! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:43:12 (EST) From: Mahatma Coat Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Wanting to be an instructor. Message:

Oh, Anth Ji. This is truly graceofgod. First you can feel this old Mahatmaji's love through ordinary computer screen. And now, you are offering to serve the true lord and master by doing prachar. It is only a matter of time before my dear brother is going to extra special Training Session with Guru Ji and Valerio. Yes, please Anth this makes old Mahatma Ji so truly very much blissed out that you want to do this. One tiny suggestion. When you are going to the Training, you must never, ever, ever talk about this bastard Captain with gold braids you said came out of your computer screen. This will make Guru Ji very angry and he'll storm out of the room and we will have to beg him to come back. Then you will surely become, how you say Scraped Goat, and be forced to be banished in shame from training. Then how could you awake each day knowing you will never see Guru Ji again? So forget about this fraud Captain and concentrate on spreading the truth about Maharaji. Your brother who is 'One in the spirit and one in the Lord' Mahatma Coat

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:13:22 (EST) From: AJWdustathisfeet Email: None To: Mahatma Coat Subject: Ah Mahatma Ji. Message:

Oh, Anth Ji. This is truly graceofgod. First you can feel this old Mahatmaji's love through ordinary computer screen. And now, you are offering to serve the true lord and master by doing prachar. It is only a matter of time before my dear brother is going to extra special Training Session with Guru Ji and Valerio. Yes, please Anth this makes old Mahatma Ji so truly very much blissed out that you want to do this. One tiny suggestion. When you are going to the Training, you must never, ever, ever talk about this bastard Captain with gold braids you said came out of your computer screen. This will make Guru Ji very angry and he'll storm out of the room and we will have to beg him to come back. Then you will surely become, how you say Scraped Goat, and be forced to be banished in shame from training. Then how could you awake each day knowing you will never see Guru Ji again? So forget about this fraud Captain and concentrate on spreading the truth about Maharaji. Your brother who is 'One in the spirit and one in the Lord' Mahatma Coat --- Whenever I read your words I feel his grace crawling down the screen, over my dirty table (like a lotus, on the table but not of the table), it jumps over to my navel and enters my heart, filling me with bliss. This is the power of satsang mahatma-ji. He is in your words, curled up inside the first letter is a tiny Captain Rawat, shouting messages about the latest goods on sale from Visions International. The Kingdom of Heaven is truly more wonderful than we dreamed. Anth, fill your holy ashtray, suck your saintly sweets, then take all your clothes off and go dancing in the street.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 22:19:50 (EST) From: Steps Email: None To: All Subject: for exiting Pams Message:

1 Allow yourself to think about it. but carry on as normal- 2 establish contact with exs willing to escort through process 3 Dont devulge your thoughts to colleages 4 Identify a safe house for yourself - 5 make travel arrangements - 6 Leave during routine business. dont try to take all your stuff 7 make copies of documentation 8 cover your tracks

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:10:18 (EST) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Steps Subject: Re: for exiting Pams and others Message:

Any PAMs exiting the cult, or anyone leaving, is welcome to contact me. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:47:56 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: sylviecyn@yahoo.com To: Marianne Subject: Re: for exiting Pams and others Message:

I echo Marianne's offer. Anyone who simply wants to talk in confidence, you are most welcome to contact me. Cynthia Gracie That means you too, SR...

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:50:58 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: And me too Message:

Yes, I, too, welcome any exiting PAM or anyone for that matter to contact either Marianne OR Cynthia. Both, even. :)

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:00:44 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: And you, too, are a Gem, Jim b) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:30:46 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: They're sounding worse all the time Message:

You tell me. Are these guys not sounding worse and worse all the time? They make no sense, they don't even try to anymore. They just utter safe, Maharaji-zone bubble words: The awareness of all awarenesses If my heart is my whole world... If my heart is the center of my entire universe... then it is neither my effort nor my sweet longing... but the awareness of all awarenesses that makes me who I am... My awareness of this awareness opens the channel to my grateful heart and allows me to come out and to feel to be more conscious and to be more clear... Stojan Svet Postojna, Slovenia ********************************************* A poem about Knowledge Trust in the master. . . Trust in Knowledge. . . Knowledge nurtures me and sustains me. . . Knowledge shelters me and protects me. . . Knowledge heals me and comforts me. . . Knowledge gives my heart the wings to soar in jubilant exhiliration. David Pansa Utica, NY, USA ************************************************ Keeping in touch There is a breath Life is here There is a student Maharaji is here There is a connection Joy is here Shining feelings are everywhere Ivete Belfort Mattos Sao Paolo, Brazil ************************************************* Harmony I am a breath of air: Pure, clear living air. I am a drop of water: A flowing grace. I am a piece of earth: Elemental movement. I am a spark of fire: A bonding warmth and light. I am awareness: The ability to choose and observe. My master gave me Knowledge and now I know the feeling of gratitude and the experience of bliss in my heart. Maybe none of these are mine except the pure enjoyment of them all. Jim Sakshaug Marblemount, USA

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:57:44 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sadder yet..... Message:

......is that they think it matters. To write this stuff and have it end up on the internet, they are hopeful that M himself will see it and call them to the divine residence where they will live a life of bliss with darshan. That's what is galling. This stuff doesn't matter. All that matters, ever mattered, is the money. In fact, I imagined this kind of poetry makes him want to barf.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:18:22 (EST) From: Francesca ~) Email: None To: Vicki Subject: But Vicki, it's just like M's poetry Message:

ROLF! 'The Creator of All The Creator of Soul You are my all You are my all I am lost in wood I pray you would save me from this material world ...' GMJ, emabarassing old stuff (nah, just like his new stuff) Francesca, who'll use that 'material' and make a dress. Blessings on 'is little wooden head!

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 16:41:05 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Francesca ~) Subject: It certainly is Francesca! Message:

But I still don't think he likes anything except his own stuff. And from what I've seen in the corporate world, there are two sets of policies and procedures- one on paper and the unwritten, water cooler version, which, it so happens is the important one. The paper version is just show and tell. The water cooler version is what counts. It's what is between the lines, and if someone is an employee and expects the corporation to adhere to it's written version, not understanding the 'wink and nudge nudge' version, well the vip's look upon said employee as being really stupid and not worthy to be in the corporation, except for menial labor. That's what I mean about M. I think all this stuff makes him want to gag. Look at the people he's surrounded himself with and who staff EV. Mean, nasty, take no prisoners type seedy characters. Now he may trot some of this insipid pwk poetry out to 'show' how much it means to him, but John blew the top off that one. Nope, I think the fawning premie that is being produced actually disgusts him. Otherwise, they would be the pams and staffing ev, but they aren't. Look who is. It's very revealing.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:41:04 (EST) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Vicki Subject: You're right about that Message:

Dear Vicki, I don't think he wants the fawning premies either, though their gentle, innocent ways make great window dressing. :) F

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 07:07:02 (EST) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: They're sounding like Rawat Message:

Poor darlings, they have been exposed to the poetry of the perfect master. At some level, they have noticed it's crap and they can do better. They are right of course, for they could hardly do worse. But the only beauty these writers can understand is the 'beauty' of mindless adoration. There is more to creativity than THAT feeling. It's another sad manifestation of the dreadful mindrot that afflicts those who do NOT leave the rotten Rawat and his decaying cult.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:21:38 (EST) From: Francesca ~) Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Paintings of Rawat with big eyes Message:

Premies, how about some of those pictures of Rawat with big eyes? Or dogs playing cards and smoking cigars and drinking with Rawat. Thomas Kinkade could paint his 'light.' The possiblities are mindless!!

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:32:03 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Francesca ~) Subject: Big Rawat Eyes on Velvet...:) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:42:45 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: A cult eulogy for the unnamed premie Message:

I saw this a few days ago and wasn't quite sure about saying anything, respect for the dead and all that. But, well, here it is: Janice Wilson: In memory of Will From Baldwinsville, New York Written in memory of Will Jones and read at his funeral service today, a person with Knowledge from Syracuse New York, who will be missed. Dust we were, dust we will be. But what a magnificent life we are given in between. The sweet gift of breath flowing in and out all of our days. With so much love and care we are created able to be conscious, appreciating the magic of life. We are so good at enjoying. What a blessing to wake up and be alive Feel it, know it, live it. However short or long our life may be We are honoured, gifted with breath, life itself. Thank you for this grace and love on our heads. With affection Janice Wilson Is there anything at all there about the PERSON Will Jones? Nothing I can see. Just another mindless pledge of fealty to the God of Love, Lord of Mercy .... I hope Will had some real friends.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:19:09 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Jim Subject: It could be worse Jim. Message:

Hi Jim, At least she didn't go on about the grace of Captain Rawat. Premies have a problem with death. The cult religion skips over it. What happens to Premies when they die? When they get to the door the key doesn't fit. I think half of them expect the Captain to show up in an etheric ferari and whisk them off to that great DVD event in the sky. I think one of the problems is they are supposed to be focused on the Captain, but when someone dies, the mourners focus on the deceased. At moments like this, a premie's words of wisdom are obviously empty and hollow, most folk understand to keep their mouths shut. I communnicated with someone who was with an old time, fanatical type premie when he was dying. The premie's experience was not one of bliss, but one of great disappointment. The Captain was expected to 'do something', but didn't show. I few years ago, I spent a couple of months helping to look after an old friend who was dying of cancer. I was still a premie, but I think the experience was a pointer to the exit. The death of an individual is a far greater, more significant event than anything to do with joining a cult. My condolences to Wills friends and family. Anth, alternative funeral director.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 03:33:10 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Jim Subject: Whose life is it anyway? Message:

Don't forget now that a devotee had GIVEN UP HIS LIFE and does not have one of his own....and anyway the devotee goes STRAIGHT to Maharaji at 'death'. Also 3 generations forward and 3 generations back, the satguru liberates the souls of the devotees family. You probably forgot all this. Jethro

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:59:24 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: Easy Does It, Jim... Message:

Jim, Don't you think it's a time for empathy right now? You know I respect the hell out of you, but really, Jim, these folks are fucked up. These premies may want out right now, please... I have a journal to Maharaji from the late 70s and 80s that I kept that is full of this fluffy poetry. I meant it at the time. All I'm askin' is to give 'em a break for the time being. Let's see what happens in the next days and weeks... Easy on the critique right now is all I'm saying. Now, please don't pummel me! :8) Have a good weekend... Cynth

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:36:16 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Ah, at last, a chance to pummel Cynthia Message:

Nya ah ah! Cynthia, my little pretty, you fell for my trap! For months now I've been looking, watching, waiting for an opportunity to attack you. But, damn it, you were always so careful. I must say, you kept me up, Cynthia. Long, late night stragegy sessions. How can I get her? And yet, I knew deep within inside that sooner or later you'd slip up. Sooner or later you'd give me a chance to go for the jugular, to drink your hot New England blood and when, surfeited and content again (briefly, of course), I kicked back and spat the last mouthful back onto my computer screen (a bit of a ritual I've developed along with the taste of ex-premie blood which, by the way, is every bit as sweet as premie blood if perhaps a bit staler), I knew I'd had another. Sleep comes at last as the sun threatens to rise again. Am I a man? Who dares to ask?!

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:55:26 (EST) From: I'm sending you my Email: None To: Jim Subject: Book of Prayers to Maharaji... Message:

...but please be gentle kind sir, mmm...I mean man. And...please don't be licking the stale dry drops of my hot New England blood that grace the wrinkled pages worn thin from old devotion. That, dear man, would make you crazy with desire to lick guru toes and blindly write checks to the Rawat estate. Cynth

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