Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Nov 13, 2001 To: Nov 18, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Barry -:- Unreality is great! -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:42:29 (EST)
__ Zelda -:- AH! Premies can have fun !! -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:14:16 (EST)

Joe -:- Erika Andersen Really Filters Me -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:49:26 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- *****YET ANOTHER BEST OF***** -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 18:39:47 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Cynthis and a belated happy birthday (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 12:54:24 (EST)
__ Rebbe Shmebbe -:- Re: Erika Andersen Really Filters Me -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 17:36:21 (EST)
__ __ Yeshiva bocho -:- Joe chutzpah IS chutzpah -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 19:16:54 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Thanks, but I looked it up -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 17:46:06 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Did you send Erika this one? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:25:12 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Yes, and thanks. -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:46:48 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Yes, and thanks. -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 19:26:51 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Know what really bugs me? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:20:12 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Re: Know what really bugs me??? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:55:14 (EST)
__ Zelda -:- Erikas Fallicies of Distraction Index -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:19:40 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- What a tour de force -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:21:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: What a tour de force -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:03:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- They've been trained by a 'Master'! :) -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 20:02:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Auntie Eureeka -:- Erika's evil twin -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 10:25:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Auntie Eureeka you are priceless!!! -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 20:03:59 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Guru Goons Loose: EPO new article -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:02:18 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Anyone know Ken Kelley? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 12:35:01 (EST)
__ __ Inside Edition -:- Re: Ken and Rennie Davis -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 18:40:13 (EST)
__ __ Hunting for Red November -:- The dude lives in Oakland -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:55:09 (EST)
__ __ Francesca -:- I actually have his video somewhere -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:39:38 (EST)
__ __ Interested bystander -:- Re: Anyone know Ken Kelley? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:17:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- I can provide some stuff if needed -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 03:41:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Auntie Eureeka -:- Re: I can provide some stuff if needed -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 10:44:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Mummiji -:- Yes!! The NERVE of some people's children!!! -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 23:08:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Mr. Hanky -:- Hilarious, Auntie E. Will You Marry Me? [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 11:34:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Auntie Eureeka -:- Really , Mr. Hanky, you are saucey! -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 23:30:46 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- You are interesting? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:31:59 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Anyone know Ken Kelley? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:57:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ I.B. -:- Anyone good at finding...? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:02:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Paul Itzer -:- Author, Author -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:45:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- The magazine would pay him... -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:35:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Michigander -:- Re: Anyone good at finding...? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:21:44 (EST)
__ __ Michigander -:- No, but do da name... -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 12:45:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Yes! I was such a fool. -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:40:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ berni -:- me too !!! -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:33:39 (EST)

Pat:C) -:- Rawat a no-show at Hans jayanti? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 03:56:18 (EST)
__ **** -:- Re: Rawat a no-show at Hans jayanti? -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 05:03:33 (EST)
__ __ Bhai Gosh Ji -:- It was very super excellently blissful [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 05:10:49 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Announcement on all cult websites -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:51:45 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- Maharaji is a COWARD! nt -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 01:36:44 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Duh, course he was there. -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:18:29 (EST)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Duh, course he was there. -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 19:40:44 (EST)
__ Mahatma Coat -:- He was a Yes-Show in spirit -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:19:50 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Yes Mahatma-ji, Yes Yes Yes. -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:21:54 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Don't forget, Hans Bons Ki Jai -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 19:19:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Mahatma Coat -:- Re: Yes Mahatma-ji, Yes Yes Yes. -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:30:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- By His Grace -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:44:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Mahatma Coat -:- Meaning of your vision, Anth Ji?? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:39:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- Yuck! Bad taste. -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 04:14:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- You should read the Greek myths Peg. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:25:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Yuck! Bad taste. -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 11:39:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Peg -:- Please pass on my appreciation -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 20:58:11 (EST)
__ XXX -:- you prove Erika right -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 07:45:26 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- That's a preconditioned response [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:41:28 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Errr. -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:26:45 (EST)

Jim -:- New from Erika: 'Filtering out the Good' -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:12:00 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- **GREAT POST JIM ** (NT) -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 08:01:28 (EST)
__ Jerry Manderingh -:- FILTER THIS -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 12:01:09 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Land Acquisition Projects - Tell us more! -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 12:14:28 (EST)
__ __ __ Jerry Manderingh -:- Re: Land Acquisition Projects - Tell us more! -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:05:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Everything he touches turns to SHIT! -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 00:04:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Everything he touches turns to SHIT! -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 04:48:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Forgive you? Why............ -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:52:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- One day......maybe -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 04:48:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- That makes me blush. What a nice thing to say -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:06:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- That makes me feel sad -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:47:06 (EST)
__ gerry -:- ****BEST OF**** -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 10:29:21 (EST)
__ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: New from Erika: 'Filtering out the Good' -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:54:06 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Shooting fish in a barrel -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 04:16:45 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: New from Erika: 'Filtering out the Good' -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:25:39 (EST)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- She should try not filtering out INFORMATION... -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:32:18 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- sheeesh another ****BEST**** -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 10:36:51 (EST)
__ bill -:- Jim, Erica's 'true' example is a lie. -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 00:58:52 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- That's what I thought -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:12:46 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- Write her Jim [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:01:06 (EST)

Salam -:- Mahraji Discharged and Acquitted of murder case -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:07:58 (EST)
__ janet -:- not prem pal.this is the other gmj -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:21:02 (EST)
__ __ Salam -:- got you -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:12:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Katie -:- The Nigerian Maharaji -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 09:18:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- Re: The Nigerian Maharaji -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 19:45:31 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Like, duh! -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:14:27 (EST)
__ __ salam -:- I don't know -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 00:17:23 (EST)

Pat:C) -:- Catweasel deserves some respect -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 21:18:57 (EST)
__ Gail MacDougall -:- Re: Catweasel deserves some respect -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 02:35:37 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Gail, I'm so disappointed. How could you? -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 12:15:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Gail -:- Re: Gail, I'm so disappointed. How could you? -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 16:55:12 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks. Gail, for telling that story -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 04:37:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- GREAT Post Pat -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 21:28:34 (EST)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Thanks. Gail, for telling that story -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 06:04:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- My figures are absurd? -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 06:09:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: My figures are absurd? -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 06:31:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- So,Pussy, how much did it cost? -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 13:50:03 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- More Cat, Less Weasel -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:59:53 (EST)
__ __ CW -:- Re: More Cat, Less Weasel -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 06:36:35 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Go within Cat -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 14:25:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Go within Cat -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 16:42:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Very Good Cat -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 02:25:50 (EST)
__ __ Ulf -:- Good question.. Cat.. ?? nt. -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 05:59:49 (EST)
__ janet -:- Re: Catweasel is not a 'he' -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:23:03 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- I think he is -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:26:17 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: Catweasel deserves some respect -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:40:10 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Catweasel is self-appointed monitor, Vicki -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 03:27:32 (EST)
__ __ __ CW -:- Catweasel is simply itself -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 07:02:48 (EST)
__ __ Shri Catweasel -:- Re: Catweasel deserves some respect -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 03:01:02 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- I have a question Cat -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 04:38:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: I have a question Cat -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 07:08:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Okay, maybe I will....Another question, okay? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 23:56:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Okay, maybe I will....Another question, okay? -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 06:28:39 (EST)

Richard -:- Books to exit by -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 20:59:30 (EST)
__ such -:- A: the Book of Life: empirical self-reliance -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 18:26:06 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- My fav: The Guru Papers [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 22:25:10 (EST)
__ Barbara -:- Re: Books to exit by -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:33:03 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Right Barbara -- excellent book -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:17:42 (EST)
__ janet -:- Re: Books to exit by -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:33:42 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- John Bradshaw? -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:16:16 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Nice phrase Janet -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:51:29 (EST)
__ Mark -:- Re: Books to exit by -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:15:51 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Don't forget 'The Right Use of Will' -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 22:10:52 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Also the movie: 'The Curse of the Mummy' -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 22:13:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Also the movie: 'The Curse of the Mummy' -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 22:57:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- :) [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 13:31:24 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Richard, you make quite a case -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:47:16 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Above subject is: You make quite a case, Mark -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:58:38 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- Re: -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:48:49 (EST)
__ __ __ Mark -:- Re: Re: -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 11:25:04 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Hey Richard, Here's an idea ... -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 21:12:34 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: Hey Richard, Here's an idea ... -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:12:39 (EST)
__ __ __ berni -:- Wierd and Wonderfuel -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:08:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Wierd and Wonderfuel -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:50:29 (EST)

Michael McDonald -:- Response to David Lovejoy -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 17:15:06 (EST)
__ Lesley -:- Ghost Christians -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:17:54 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Michael... -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:34:26 (EST)
__ bill -:- Micheal Dettmers post to David Lovejoy -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:20:43 (EST)
__ SC -:- Sorry Michael but... -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:19:33 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Ah, Roupell, there you are. -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:41:34 (EST)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Ah, Roupell, there you are. -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 17:22:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Help. I'm being flamed by a vegi-sausage. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:44:21 (EST)
__ __ Michael McDonald -:- Too late to play inncoent, David... -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:49:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Too late to play inncoent, David... -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 03:12:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Michael McDonald -:- Innocent, not incoherent NT -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:51:48 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Tread lightly on the boss's toes? -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 22:09:36 (EST)

Nottingham Bunny -:- Amma - does anyone here have any info? -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 16:55:59 (EST)
__ Peg -:- No facts really but please delete this post! -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:49:28 (EST)
__ Peg -:- No facts really but -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:43:18 (EST)
__ SC -:- She's Jason's favorite person -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:34:34 (EST)
__ Huggee -:- Re: Amma - does anyone here have any info? -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 20:05:27 (EST)
__ G -:- Try Rick Ross -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 18:45:18 (EST)
__ Ammachi -:- Website -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 17:44:01 (EST)
__ __ Another -:- Website -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 18:22:30 (EST)
__ About -:- Amma -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 17:39:01 (EST)
__ __ Nottingham Bunny -:- Amma - any hard facts?OT -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 18:33:56 (EST)
__ __ __ Kaj -:- Don't trust Amma -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 07:10:05 (EST)

Carlos -:- OT: Afganistan is FREE! of the Taliban -:- Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 13:28:25 (EST)
__ janet -:- be chary of premature beliefs -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:53:51 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- That's offensive Janet -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 00:49:03 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Keep this garbage on AG, Janet -:- Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 17:38:34 (EST)


Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:42:29 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Unreality is great!
Message:
As I Dribble down my own chin.
[ http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=10434.86220051389 ]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:14:16 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: AH! Premies can have fun !!
Message:
It is interesting to see that they are really enjoying life and they can do it as normal people- I didnt see one Mudwuph image in the whole collection. Maybe Erika was right- no cultish stuff there.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:49:26 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Erika Andersen Really Filters Me
Message:
Jim has an excellent analysis of Erika's latest missive, and sorry if this repeats some things, but I couldn't help it. Here it is:

ERIKA, YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FILTERING ME

Erika Andersen has a new article on her website entitled Filtering out the Good (November 11, 2001). It is very much in line with the themes of most of the other things she has written, namely, that those “critics” of Maharaji are focusing on “selected information,” only presenting part of the story, or giving false information about Maharaji. Why do they do this? Well, Erika usually says it’s because there is something wrong with them. In earlier articles she said that they criticize Maharaji’s obscene wealth because they are filled with jealousy, in another, she says they criticize Maharaji’s ashrams because they were too spiritually immature and moved in for the wrong reasons. In this article, her theory is that it’s because they have a “filter” in their brains.

Erika says that critics of Maharaji have a “he’s-a-jerk-and-a-cult-leader filter” in their heads and hence can see Maharaji only negatively. Erika never addresses what might cause someone to get such an infirmity, but she says the “filter” causes these critics to come across as “rote, predictable and often self-righteous.” But as is the pattern in her other articles, Erika never gets around to addressing, or responding to, any allegations that ex-followers have actually made about Maharaji, as opposed to those Erika fabricates herself. (See especially, her article Myth Buster, dated August 8, 2001 and my response thereto for examples of Erika’s propensity to make things up). Because she will not deal with those specific allegations, predictably, she is left with only the route of attacking the people who make those “predictable and often self-righteous” criticisms. And this she does.

That one could turn her hypocritically “self-righteous” lecture on this subject back on Erika seems to have eluded her. It would be quite logical to suggest that followers of Maharaji are typical of other cult members and have extremely skewed views of Maharaji because they “filter” out all negative information about their cult leader. Further, they then engage in “rote” responses like Erika does, with self-righteous put-downs of critics as having some sort of mental defect, like she also does. Isn’t it ironic?

One also gets the impression after reading a number of Erika’s articles that she is talking to children and not teenagers either, but really young children, like seven-year-olds. She usually presents some simplistic metaphor or illustration, like comparing her marriage to the evolution of Maharaji, comparing the ashram to a tropical plant, comparing the critics’ one-sided views of Maharaji to views of her daughter as a truant and a thief, and so on.

In this article, the simplistic metaphor involves a fictional business executive named “John” whom Erika is distressed to note “thinks that most of the other senior people in his company are idiots.” Because “John” steadfastly holds on to this viewpoint, Erika says he “filters” good things that those other people might do. Similarly, and I’m sure you can see this coming, Erika says that Maharaji’s critics do the same thing; they take all information about Maharaji and view it through their pre-conceived “filter,” not only failing to see the positive, but also twisting it into the worst possible light.

What Erika never asks is why does “John” think those associates are “idiots?” Did “ John” just make that up for no reason? Is “John” just mean, vindictive and wicked? Could it possibly be that John’s associates really are idiots? In any case, isn’t it very important to ask what interactions or experiences caused “John” to have that viewpoint, since it’s logically unlikely that he just pulled it out of thin air?

Maybe they walk into walls, or repeatedly stick their fingers into the electric pencil sharpeners, or are just very incompetent in their jobs. The point is, there are experiences “John” has had with these people that have made him have the opinions he does. Avoiding a close examination of their validity and getting to the bottom of whether they are indicative of the kind of co-workers “John” actually has, would not seem to help the situation. Just telling “John” that he has a “pre-conceived” viewpoint and to get rid of it, without analyzing whether the viewpoint is valid, would seem to be a major waste of time. Despite this obvious flaw, Erika uses this same intellectual fallacy when she talks about Maharaji’s critics. So, we get no analysis of why they think the way they do about Maharaji, just that the way they think about him is very messed up.

But regarding “John,” one would also think that continued and repeated evidence of the competency of his co-workers would likely turn him around, either showing that he was wrong, or that his co-workers had changed. On the other hand, if such evidence does not arise, maybe “John” is right after all. A person does not just start out with a “pre-conceived” point of view. It takes a lot of evidence and experiences to “conceive” the viewpoint. Presumably, “John” has had a lot of experiences with his co-workers, just like ex-followers of Maharaji have had lots of experience interacting with, and observing, Maharaji, some for as many as 25 or more years.

In fact, the only situation in which overwhelming contrary information does not have this effect is, well, in cults. That’s because people in cults do what Erika Andersen does, they engage in mind control. They generalize, obfuscate, attack the person providing the contrary information, deflect, and to every extent possible, protect the cult leader from criticism, even if it means blaming themselves. Under no circumstances do they analyze the validity of the criticisms of the cult-leader that the ex-followers have.

So, Erika tells us that for some unstated reason some former followers of Maharaji have developed this “filter.” The more “antagonistic” these opponents of Maharaji are, Erika diagnoses, the more they have such a “filter” (an “impermeable set of negative assumptions” no less), and the less they are able to see Maharaji clearly. She provides two examples of this phenomenon.

Example Number One: Erika says that the critics with these filters” would view the fact that Maharaji hasn’t been involved with her website, as evidence that he is “a jerk and a cult leader” for being so “heartless.” If he were involved with the site they would say he was “a jerk and a cult leader” for using the site to his own advantage. According to Erika, poor Maharaji is “damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t” by such filter-infested people.

Not to be as dramatic as Erika, but this is insane. I don’t think critics of Maharaji care whether Maharaji has commented on Erika’s website, and I haven’t seen any comments, even on the Forum, one way or the other. It’s kind of a non-issue. It certainly isn’t something that’s on the high priority of criticisms of Maharaji. One thing I will say is that I would bet hard-earned money that if Maharaji didn’t want her website up, or wanted it changed, it would be gone or changed, no doubt about it. He wouldn’t need to make a public statement either. Just a communication over “first class” or through the proper communication channels and it would be done.

Similarly, if Maharaji wanted the CAC and the other websites that members of his cult have set up to criminally attack his “critics” to be gone, they would be as well. There have been seven separate websites so far; one website remains as of the date of this writing. That site accuses me and others of committing felonies, and it includes the names of our employers. We have heard nothing whatsoever from Maharaji about this. What are we to conclude?

I think there are three possibilities: 1) He doesn’t know about them; 2) He doesn’t care one way or the other about them; or 3) He approves of them. Since I find item “1” utterly implausible, that leaves the other two, either of which reflects very negatively on Maharaji. Is this just my filter working, making it impossible for me to see the positive side of Maharaji’s inaction or tacit approval of those attack websites, or is this a legitimate conclusion? What do you think Erika? More importanly, what would an “innocent bystander” think?

Erika’s Example Number Two: Maharaji has made some changes in how he presents himself since the 70s (like closing the ashrams, dropping “Guru,” no longer wearing Krishna outfits and crowns, etc.). Erika thinks Maharaji made those changes for entirely positive and altruistic reasons -- so knowledge would be more available to people. But Erika laments that the “filter-critics” see those changes as “deception” and a way to “keep people under his control” and “to make money.”

Okay, fair enough, there are always two sides to any story. But we are talking about motivations and because of Maharaji’s failure to explain any of this we don’t know for sure. I tell my students that when they don’t know the full story about something they should focus on what you do know -- focus on the evidence that is available. Anyone who does that will see that it’s Erika who is doing the filtering, not Maharaji’s critics.

For example, we have the testimony of at least two former high-level people who were assistants to Maharaji at the time he closed ashrams saying that he did so for financial reasons, because the ashram premies were getting older and were more a liability than an asset. Maybe they were also an obstacle to propagation, and that was a reason as well. But Erika doesn’t seem to grasp that by “filtering” out the evidence of the other motivations, it makes it impossible for her to see why in relation to the ashrams, people criticize Maharaji as being uncaring towards his followers. Obviously, people who do not think Maharaji is worthy of being their master do not think there should still be ashrams. No, the “critics” do not criticize Maharaji for closing the ashrams; it was his motivations for doing so, and the uncaring way he did it, especially in light of how he browbeat us for years prior into being terrified of ever leaving the ashram, that is the criticism.

What about getting rid of the Hindu trappings, and how the “filter-critics” view that as “cynical?” I don’t consider those changes cynical as much as I consider them superficial, because I don’t think all that much has changed. Darshan and ARTI are still happening. I watched a video of Long Beach 1997 and watched Daya and the Pwks sing “please, please, please teach me devotion” to Maharaji as he sat on stage, and how Maharaji is “pure and his love is deeper than the ocean,” etc. I saw the Pwks go ape-shit when he got up and danced just like in the bad old 70s. And I can see how some would find it cynical when Maharaji, Elan Vital and Erika make it sound like those changes were deep and profound. “Devotion” is now “gratitude.” “Service” is now “participation,” “Word Technique” is now “Technique Number 3.” So what? The basic belief system of the cult is just as intact as it was in 1973, just with some new buzzwords. Yes, the ashrams are closed and that is a positive change, because it means fewer people can be exploited and abused in that forlorn institution.

Most critics of Maharaji don’t really care that he made those changes. The criticism is that Maharaji has never taken the responsibility that one would think a “master” should, to explain, counsel, admit errors and address the real human damage he caused. Instead, he ignores, covers-up, blames others, and lies. For example, for years Maharaji claimed to be the incarnation of God, as can be substantiated in numerous quotes, and now he lies and claims he never did it.

Maharaji and Elan Vital must have the world’s worst PR people, because on the Elan Vital website there is an actual video clip of Maharaji in which he outright lies about this. The text on the Elan Vital website is also a lie. This isn’t about changing Hindu trappings. It’s very basic. It’s that Maharaji seems to have a real problem with telling the truth. A lie is a lie and no “filters” can change that one way or the other. This, in addition to his incapability of admitting he has ever committed errors, much less taking responsibility for such errors, or doing anything to correct the damage they caused, is dispositive in my view of his ever being my master. Of course, this would be important information for any “innocent bystander” also to know, and they are unlikely to get it from either Maharaji or Erika. Thank God for the critics.

To be fair, maybe partly because of our criticism, Erika courageously tries in her article to make a lunge towards a very tiny criticism of Maharaji. One can almost see Erika’s teeth clench as she says the following:

Has he made mistakes along the way? From my point of view, yes. There have been dead ends, changes that were confusing, swings of the pendulum that went too far in one direction or another. From what I can see, he has had a tendency to shift gears without acknowledging how his 'shifting' might affect those trying to keep up with him.

Close, but you just can’t quite do it, can you Erika? As is typical of Erika and other cult members, if anything even slightly verges on the teeniest criticism of Maharaji, out comes the passive voice. While Erika says Maharaji “made mistakes,” one waits in vain to hear what they are. Rather, she says, “there have been dead ends,” and also “changes that were confusing” and there were “swings of the pendulum”. These things, mild and forgivable though they may be, just sort of “happened” and weren’t really Maharaji’s fault. Hence, Maharaji should never have to talk about them, or take responsibility for them, even if, as is the case, real people were damaged in the process.

But wait. As we read on, it appears we might get an actual criticism of Maharaji out of Erika. Can it be? Erika says that Maharaji has a tendency to “shift gears” (one’s heart begins to beat faster. Will Erika actually criticize Maharaji? Oh my God. A real live cult member, criticizing the cult leader? That hasn’t happened yet!). But our hopes are dashed. Erika concludes that the problem wasn’t really Maharaji, it was that his followers couldn’t “keep up with him.” Oy Vey. I give up. Oh, and Erika, for your convenience, the above is about the best example of a “rote and predictable” statement as I have ever seen.

What is the point of all this? Erika says she is concerned about all those filter-impaired critics of Maharaji, not really for herself, or for Maharaji, but because it gives those “innocent bystanders” an unbalanced view:

If someone is interested in Maharaji and Knowledge, listening only to people who see through such negative filters isn't going to give a balanced view. I would suggest listening to what Maharaji has to say about Knowledge and the Master, and to people who have been benefiting from what he's shown them. Most important, I'd suggest applying one's own filters not those that filter out the good, but those that let it through...

A balanced view? Give me a break. If it weren’t for those “critics” all those innocent bystanders could find out about Maharaji is the propaganda he, his websites, and Erika’s website puts out. One of the main reasons the “critics” are speaking out on the Internet is because there is nothing approaching a “balanced view’” of Maharaji on the cult websites, in his videos, or in the Visions publications.

While admittedly not “balanced,” the critics’ websites serve the function of giving the other side of the story, because, let’s face it, Please Consider This, Visions, Elan Vital and Enjoyinglife are completely censored websites, that do not even admit contrary views. I have submitted a number of dissenting views to Erika herself and she is batting 1000 in censoring every one of them from her supposed “balanced” website. The same is true of Enjoyinglife (see the great “Nigel caper” on EPO for a description of the massive censorship that goes on at that particular cult site).

On the other hand, the ex-premie sites allow anyone, including Erika herself and her brother, both of whom have done so, to come forward and present opposing views, and counteract those awful filters. So, for Erika to self-righteously lecture us on our supposed “rote” and “predictable” explanations, when she, on her own website censors off anything she doesn’t agree with, gives new meaning to the word “chutzpah.”

Joe Whalen
November 13, 2001

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 18:39:47 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: *****YET ANOTHER BEST OF*****
Message:
Joe,

You are outdoing yourself! I love the way you and Jim are taking that website apart. It's wonderful writing and such a pleasure to read.

OK. Enough smoke blowing b)

This in particular pisses me off about that site and Erika's writing...you wrote:

One also gets the impression after reading a number of Erika’s articles that she is talking to children and not teenagers either, but really young children, like seven-year-olds. She usually presents some simplistic metaphor or illustration, like comparing her marriage to the evolution of Maharaji, comparing the ashram to a tropical plant, comparing the critics’ one-sided views of Maharaji to views of her daughter as a truant and a thief, and so on.

It's quite demeaning to exes or anyone for her to be so simplistic.

It occurred to me when you mentioned the bit about Erika talking to children that Maharaji speaks that way. And he always referred to us as his children, or would say ''come as a child.''

So here's this big fat guru with so much self-made power, and what does he do? He sends out his children to do his dirty work for him. All fail in their attempts at damage control.

The ''Master'' who can show people 'that' place inside and bring peace to the world and is so unreachable and unavailable to his premies, hides behind them like a sorry-ass criminal who would hold up a child as a shield.

That's what pisses me off about Maharaji. He has no courage. He's a coward. It amazes me over and over how narcissistic Maharaji really is.

Thanks, Joe--keep 'em coming!

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 12:54:24 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks, Cynthis and a belated happy birthday (nt)
Message:
Hope you had a great birthday, Cynthia.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 17:36:21 (EST)
From: Rebbe Shmebbe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Erika Andersen Really Filters Me
Message:
Sharp as a tack Joe, and searingly accurate. You're no mishugganah, only one inaccuracy - pls change spelling of the last word to 'chutzpah'.

Keep separating the wheat from the chaff and filtering the obvious from the odious,

Rebbe

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 19:16:54 (EST)
From: Yeshiva bocho
Email: None
To: Rebbe Shmebbe
Subject: Joe chutzpah IS chutzpah
Message:
never mind the Rebbe, he's full of shmultz
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 17:46:06 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rebbe Shmebbe
Subject: Thanks, but I looked it up
Message:
and found it spelled both ways. But as you appear to be the Yiddish expert, and I am as goy as they come, I will defer to you. Thanks.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:25:12 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Did you send Erika this one?
Message:
Hi Joe,

I hope you are sending her copies of all these PCT analogy/rebuttals. They are very astute.

You should definitely have your section in the EPO annals. More people involved in the cult are coming around and this stuff should be readily available.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:46:48 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Yes, and thanks.
Message:
Think she will post it? :) I think John is putting together a bunch of the responses to the PCT website, somewhere on EPO. Right, John?

Actually, I think we should be thanking Erika and Co., for the grist they have provided, helping us get our views out there more effectively. It's been a great development in my opinion.

BTW John, do you want me to send you a word version of the above?

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 19:26:51 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Yes, and thanks.
Message:
Yes I am! Honest! Currently struggling with indenting paragraphs, but I think I've now got this simple concept licked. Send me this post in Word please.

John

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:20:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Know what really bugs me?
Message:
Why do they only allow non-resident commentators a maximum of 100 words to say anything? It's almost as if they're holding their noses in fear that Janice might really let it rip and they'd have to post it all seeing as no one else is 'speaking up'.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:55:14 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Know what really bugs me???
Message:
Did you notice they got a grand total of FOUR people to comment on why Maharaji isn't the leader of a cult, one of whom was the infamous Janice Wilson who wrote her response while sitting in the river of love? Kind of pathetic, really.

In addition to the responses to the articles, I submitted a 'speak up' response on the 'cult' issue, including the URLs of the then FOUR attack websites put up by premies, saying these were a very strong reason that Maharaji really is leading a cult. Somehow, that didn't get printed, but the response from Janice Wilson made the cut.

That Erika can think she can get away with calling that blatant censorship a 'balanced' presentation is astounding.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:19:40 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Erikas Fallicies of Distraction Index
Message:
premies seem to use a hybrid type of logic - a conglomorate of several on the list below-- sprinkled with the fairy dust of devotion and the might of 'nothing to do with me'

Fallacies of Distraction

* False Dilemma: two choices are given when in fact there are three options
* From Ignorance: because something is not known to be true, it is assumed to be false
* Slippery Slope: a series of increasingly unacceptable consequences is drawn
* Complex Question: two unrelated points are conjoined as a single proposition
Appeals to Motives in Place of Support

* Appeal to Force: the reader is persuaded to agree by force
* Appeal to Pity: the reader is persuaded to agree by sympathy
* Consequences: the reader is warned of unacceptable consequences
* Prejudicial Language: value or moral goodness is attached to believing the author
* Popularity: a proposition is argued to be true because it is widely held to be true
Changing the Subject

* Attacking the Person:
* (1) the person's character is attacked
* (2) the person's circumstances are noted
* (3) the person does not practise what is preached
* Appeal to Authority:
* (1) the authority is not an expert in the field
* (2) experts in the field disagree
* (3) the authority was joking, drunk, or in some other way not being serious
* Anonymous Authority: the authority in question is not named
* Style Over Substance: the manner in which an argument (or arguer) is presented is felt to affect the truth of the conclusion
Inductive Fallacies

* Hasty Generalization: the sample is too small to support an inductive generalization about a population
* Unrepresentative Sample: the sample is unrepresentative of the sample as a whole
* False Analogy: the two objects or events being compared are relevantly dissimilar
* Slothful Induction: the conclusion of a strong inductive argument is denied despite the evidence to the contrary
* Fallacy of Exclusion: evidence which would change the outcome of an inductive argument is excluded from consideration
Fallacies Involving Statistical Syllogisms

* Accident: a generalization is applied when circumstances suggest that there should be an exception
* Converse Accident : an exception is applied in circumstances where a generalization should apply
Causal Fallacies

* Post Hoc: because one thing follows another, it is held to cause the other
* Joint effect: one thing is held to cause another when in fact they are both the joint effects of an underlying cause
* Insignificant: one thing is held to cause another, and it does, but it is insignificant compared to other causes of the effect
* Wrong Direction: the direction between cause and effect is reversed
* Complex Cause: the cause identified is only a part of the entire cause of the effect
Missing the Point

* Begging the Question: the truth of the conclusion is assumed by the premises
* Irrelevant Conclusion: an argument in defense of one conclusion instead proves a different conclusion
* Straw Man: the author attacks an argument different from (and weaker than) the opposition's best argument
Fallacies of Ambiguity

* Equivocation: the same term is used with two different meanings
* Amphiboly: the structure of a sentence allows two different interpretations
* Accent: the emphasis on a word or phrase suggests a meaning contrary to what the sentence actually says
Category Errors

* Composition: because the attributes of the parts of a whole have a certain property, it is argued that the whole has that property
* Division: because the whole has a certain property, it is argued that the parts have that property
Non Sequitur

* Affirming the Consequent: any argument of the form: If A then B, B, therefore A
* Denying the Antecedent: any argument of the form: If A then B, Not A, thus Not B
* Inconsistency: asserting that contrary or contradictory statements are both true
Syllogistic Errors

* Fallacy of Four Terms: a syllogism has four terms
* Undistributed Middle: two separate categories are said to be connected because they share a common property
* Illicit Major: the predicate of the conclusion talks about all of something, but the premises only mention some cases of the term in the predicate
* Illicit Minor: the subject of the conclusion talks about all of something, but the premises only mention some cases of the term in the subject
* Fallacy of Exclusive Premises: a syllogism has two negative premises
* Fallacy of Drawing an Affirmative Conclusion From a Negative Premise: as the name implies
* Existential Fallacy: a particular conclusion is drawn from universal premises
Fallacies of Explanation

* Subverted Support (The phenomenon being explained doesn't exist)
* Non-support (Evidence for the phenomenon being explained is biased)
* Untestability (The theory which explains cannot be tested)
* Limited Scope (The theory which explains can only explain one thing)
* Limited Depth (The theory which explains does not appeal to underlying causes)
Fallacies of Definition

* Too Broad (The definition includes items which should not be included)
* Too Narrow (The definition does not include all the items which shouls be included)
* Failure to Elucidate (The definition is more difficult to understand than the word or concept being defined)
* Circular Definition (The definition includes the term being defined as a part of the definition)
* Conflicting Conditions (The definition is self-contradictory)

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:21:38 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: What a tour de force
Message:
Jeepers Creepers Zeld, I didn't realize that bullshitting through your teeth could be explained this thoroughly. Damn good post.

You don't think she knows this stuff, do you? Nahhhh!!

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:03:50 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: What a tour de force
Message:
Hi Deborah
Spooky isnt it-and that is just the definitions. I think each one has a example ect with it.
I looked up 'Logical Fallacies'- I think it has popped up on the forum before.
it is a great reference tool for teachers.

I think dem premies think thats the way it is supposed to be because if you nail them on one they just switch to another.

Z

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 20:02:05 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: They've been trained by a 'Master'! :)
Message:
Hi Zelda,

I've cut and pasted this for future reference! Thanks!

Anna

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 10:25:15 (EST)
From: Auntie Eureeka
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Erika's evil twin
Message:
You people are just hateful, making fun of my poor sister Erika, after she tries so hard to honestly share the innermost feelings from her heart of hearts. You have no idea what agony she goes through, sitting at her $5,000 laptop pc, delicately sipping latte from her Master's insignia teacup on the way to another client meeting. These clients are too intrusive upon her precious time, so she must overcharge them with outrageous fees, making them think they are getting their money's worth of corporate BS.

Her true calling in life, of course, is to tell the world of hateful ex-premies and loving pwk premies, the truth about not being in a cult, and how everything is beautiful in her perfectly perfect life.

You have no idea the pressure I, as Auntie Eureeka, am under to maintain a glazed smile at all times when in the presence of my two, perfectly well behaved, above average niece and nephew. They are such wise and enlightened children, having grown up in the bliss of a premie family whose parent's marriage was sanctioned by the lord, err teacher, when the rest of the cult, err devotees, err students, were forbidden to commit holy premarital sex. They are simply adorable. I cry tears of pride when their friends point to MaHaRaJi's portraits, which grace every wall of their House Beautiful, asking who the man with the shiny face is? "An airline pilot," they reply in synchronization.

When Wadi, Daya, Hansi and Amar pull up in their Mercedes coups to take them out for a night on the town, underage though they might be, they always insist the Divine Children wear their seatbelts. They are responsible and will be a real asset in Elan Vital's servitude. Of course, they will not be mere unpaid slaves, they will be compensated handsomely for any and all services. Why, they may have their own restaurant; they do like to bake chocolate chip cookies. Oh darn, that might give Daya's Fine Dining competition. Between you and me....Daya's dessert menu could use a little updating.

But their true aim is for my little, sweet niece to be a stewardess on Challenger, Monica will be getting old and wrinkly any day, and my talented nephew to open a vegetarian South African restaurant in Malibu. We ate at a similar restaurant in San Francisco, California while enroute to Amaroo. The layover was too long for bright children to merely loiter around the terminal, eating greasy french fries. A good Auntie is always on the look out for healthy foods to feed her niece and nephew, and this restaurant was listed on the Best Vegetarian Restaurant guide. Mind you, they aren't vegetarian because their parent's Master insisted on it once upon a time. No, it was those ignorant Mahatmas (who we never leave the children unchaperoned around) that didn't realize 'Knowledge is not in the stomach'. And my sister does enjoy a juicey, raw steak when she's at Amaroo or chow down some barbecue during the Master's Large Contributor's barbecues at his private campground. Marolyn used to be right handy with the tongs but she let the last batch of babyback ribs char. She tried to tell MaHaRaJi it wasn't her fault, the security wouldn't let her enter the Big Contributors Only gate, but He was furious. Monica has the duty of basting and turning the ribs now, and dabbing the sweat off her Master's foreplay, oops typo, forehead.

My little nephew was instantly taken and he decided right then and there, that he too wanted to be a chef and open a bigger and better South African restaurant. That way his mummy and daddy can also enjoy these delicasies without fear of being recognized by hateful ex-premies. My sister and her husband can't go anywhere without being recognized and their autogragh clammored for, now that they are famous cult apologists. I told him if he continues to be a drug free, A plus student, I as his Auntie, will send him to the San Francisco Culinary Institute, where he can develope his craft and plagorize that quaint little restaurant's menu. It is a testiment to the superiority of our family gene pool that these children do not do drugs. They realize they must wait until they are at least sixteen until they start their schooling in illegal substances. I told them that it is indeed an arduous, extracurricular task, but necessary for their future status in the Rawat chldren's social circle.

That's all for now, but never fear, Auntie Eureeka is hard at work on her annual Christmas holiday letter, where all the great accomplishments of my sister and her perfect family will be bragged upon for everyone's reading pleasure. I know all of you wish you could live such priveleged lives, but that's not possible, so you will just have to make do living vicariously Erika's life through her wonderful website and my lovely letters.

Love and kisses to all-Auntie E.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 20:03:59 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Auntie Eureeka
Subject: Auntie Eureeka you are priceless!!!
Message:
I mean ... inspired!

'I cry tears of pride when their friends point to MaHaRaJi's portraits, which grace every wall of their House Beautiful, asking who the man with the shiny face is? 'An airline pilot,' they reply in synchronization.'

I really was laughing out loud!

But there's a strange sub-plot in there, and I'm afraid I'll just have to warn Chuck and Pat about your nephew, so they'll keep their eyes peeled for menu and recipe thieves!

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:02:18 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Guru Goons Loose: EPO new article
Message:

[ Fifth Estate Magazine 2nd article ]
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 12:35:01 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Anyone know Ken Kelley?
Message:
And did he ever write that book?
[ Ken Kelley ]
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 18:40:13 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Ken and Rennie Davis
Message:
One of the highlights of Millenium '73 was a debate between Ken Kelley, representing reality, and Rennie Davis, representing the Lord of the Universe. This took place in the Astro-Hall next to the Astro-Dome, and was reprinted in Divine Times.

With Ken's long history with DLM/EV, he would probably LOVE to hear what is going on decades later. What a great story - sex, drugs, rock and roll, vehicular homicide and blasting bunnies!

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:55:09 (EST)
From: Hunting for Red November
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The dude lives in Oakland
Message:
Found a story Kelley did on Sonic Smith of MC5. Byline was Oakland, and the article started with ...I was standing on my roof. Looks like his roof's in Oakland, as well as Kelley.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:39:38 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I actually have his video somewhere
Message:
This one:

In 1987, Kelley wrote, interviewed all subjects, and co-produced a home-video documentary, Balltalk, Baseball's Voices of Summer, featuring six Baseball Hall of Fame broadcasting legends, released by J2 Communications.

How wierd. Someone could always e-mail him if there is an address on the site, I suppose.

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:17:45 (EST)
From: Interested bystander
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Anyone know Ken Kelley?
Message:
Ken Kelley , if he wanted to, could probably write an excellent article, on the revisitng of maharaji, 30 years later....

It might be published in a major magazine, like rolling stone, which covered lots of m-stuff in the early 70's....

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 03:41:14 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Interested bystander
Subject: I can provide some stuff if needed
Message:
like good scans of the original documents (those transcribed on EPO).

Email me if you need them.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 10:44:18 (EST)
From: Auntie Eureeka
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: I can provide some stuff if needed
Message:
You naughty, cheeky Ex's! Can't you just walk away and quit hounding people who live honest lives? Must you keep dragging my sister's Master's good Holy name through the mud? Now I have to run to the pharmacy and refill her Valium prescription. She's so distraught and it's all your fault. Leave that nice boy alone or I will be forced to sic the notorious Industrial Strength church lady from Oakland on you. I know where she hangs out and what time the satellite events are. Shame on you people. Didn't your parents teach you any manners?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 23:08:07 (EST)
From: Mummiji
Email: None
To: Auntie Eureeka
Subject: Yes!! The NERVE of some people's children!!!
Message:
That's what my Mummiji always said ... never referring to us, of course! Would you like to borrow my wooden spoon and Industrial
Strength soap?

Lovijis and hugsijis,

Saucykin's Mummiji who is tapping into a computer at the Clubmed Cyber- Café .... shhhhhhh!!!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 11:34:43 (EST)
From: Mr. Hanky
Email: None
To: Auntie Eureeka
Subject: Hilarious, Auntie E. Will You Marry Me? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 23:30:46 (EST)
From: Auntie Eureeka
Email: None
To: Mr. Hanky
Subject: Really , Mr. Hanky, you are saucey!
Message:
Proposing to Erika's sister, without Erika's permission? See what happens when one leaves the cult, your focus gets lost and all propriety just dissipates. I really have to call Erika, she will know what to do. She has the Masters's private emergency phone number for just such occasions, well actually it's for Monica but Erika is in denial about Monica and her therapist says to give it time, so for now she just calls it the inspiration hotline. See how kind and wonderful Erika's Master is? He takes care of his premies and all their relatives, unless of course they need something serious, like a Mahatma arrested. He can't be expected to get involved in such personal matters. Perfect Masters were not brought to this earth to trifle in His devotee's lives. But because Erika is a SPAM (Super Premie Annoying Maharaji) he will make exceptions.

-Auntie Eureeka

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:31:59 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Interested bystander
Subject: You are interesting?
Message:
Yes, this is an excellent idea.

A lot of people remember the boy-guru phenomenon but NOBODY (except premies and their family and friends) knows that Maha has quietly hoodwinked people over the years and amassed several hundred millions of dollars.

Furthermore, the ex-premies talking on-line and Maha organizing CAC cyberstalking sites to attack the ex-followers would make a fascinating read.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:57:56 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Interested bystander
Subject: Re: Anyone know Ken Kelley?
Message:
Ken Kelley , if he wanted to, could probably write an excellent article, on the revisitng of maharaji, 30 years later....

It might be published in a major magazine, like rolling stone, which covered lots of m-stuff in the early 70's....


---

He has also contributed to Rolling Stone, Mother Jones, Penthouse, People, TV Guide, the New York Times, Vogue and High Times. Beginning with his 1985 cover story interview with William Randolph Hearst III, his published work in San Francisco Focus earned him six 'Maggie Awards' for 'Best Interview/Profile' in that decade.

I imagine if one wrote to the above named publications asking for an email address for Ken because you have a great idea for an article or series of articles, one might be greeted with some enthusiam.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:02:04 (EST)
From: I.B.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Anyone good at finding...?
Message:
someone like Ken Kelley?

His viewpoint would be unique, and certainly an interesting take on the master, 30 years later...he would have instant name recognition and be the likely one to do it...

Additionally, it would be printed in a magazine of considerable circulation, and it would be tough for the captain of bliss to sue the magazine, as they would have a staff of attorneys trained in this very thing...

Could he be commissioned, for a fee, to write this?

What would it take, and could the money be raised here?

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:45:23 (EST)
From: Paul Itzer
Email: None
To: I.B.
Subject: Author, Author
Message:
What you are searching is right under your own pillow - Anth Ginn, Michael MacDonald and John MacGregor - hey, howzabout a collaboration? Or at least a trio of gospels according to . . .
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:35:24 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: I.B.
Subject: The magazine would pay him...
Message:
if the publisher is convinced that this is newsworthy. The story doesn't pay the author, the magazine does. Packaging the story is the challenge, not $$$$$

deb

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:21:44 (EST)
From: Michigander
Email: None
To: I.B.
Subject: Re: Anyone good at finding...?
Message:
I think Richard Levine (author of Rolling Stone article on GMJ-available on EPO) would be a good one for the job. Or maybe Pat Halley would be up for the task. Or maybe not, probably get a wicked headache from it.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 12:45:27 (EST)
From: Michigander
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: No, but do da name...
Message:
Marjoe Gortner ring a bell?
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:40:56 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Michigander
Subject: Yes! I was such a fool.
Message:
I saw Marjoe's movie exposing his televangelist scam BEFORE I received knowledge.

Francesca aka you can lead a horse to water but ....

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:33:39 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: me too !!!
Message:
Yeah me too Fran. It is strange to think that while I was being hoodwinked there were others who
saw through the whole thing. I even had friends who did not receive knowledge and I remember thinking
what fools they were, but that they would come round eventually.
What worries me most now though is 'what are we falling for these days that seems perfectly plausible
and that we have no misgivings about believing in?'
Could it be something like the waging of war against Afghanistan because our leader assure us
that this course of action is the ONLY one that will ensure a stable and peaceful existence for the
rest of us? I'm not saying they are wrong - just an example.
berni
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 03:56:18 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Rawat a no-show at Hans jayanti?
Message:
Is it true that Rawat cancelled his appearance at Hans Jayanti in New Delhi? This post appeared on LIG:

Jayanti Johnny: ''Why wasn't He there?

''After travelling overland to India (well, who would fly these days), through Iran, Afganistan, and Pakistan, I finally arrive in New Delhi to find, instead of 200,000 true devotees and the Master, 2000 bored locals, a blue tent and a video.''

Triple X replied: ''He explained it on his website (safety reasons) Safety for him and safety for all the thousands of happy travellers who would have gathered to see him''

I guess Rawat did not want any stray bombs meant for Kabul to fall on the PWKs a thousand or more miles away in New Delhi. That was so nice of him.

This is the first time in many years that Rev Rawat has not done Hans Jayanti in New Delhi. I guess I better check out the green toilet bowl to see what spin he's putting on it.

Of course his travelling must have been somewhat curtailed due to the suspicions about mid-eastern gentlemen. The only safety he was concerned with was his own. Probably sitting on his golden throne in Malibu reading Playboy.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 05:03:33 (EST)
From: ****
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Rawat a no-show at Hans jayanti?
Message:
How was the passing throu afganistan?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 05:10:49 (EST)
From: Bhai Gosh Ji
Email: None
To: ****
Subject: It was very super excellently blissful [nt]
Message:
Our blessed master, Balyouguesswhat, provided the most excellent spectacle of the most blissful fire-works display all the way through.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:51:45 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Announcement on all cult websites
Message:
Future events will be listed here as they are confirmed.

Not one event planned for anywhere in the world. I guess the Captain's flying plans are severely curtailed. Will he still have his birthday bash in Long Beach in early December as usual?

Don't bother bringing birthdays cards as they will simply be thrown in the trash but you must bring your SmartCard or you will not be able to get in. That's one birthday party I will not be attending.

Premies call this guy their ''friend.'' None of my friends ask for my ID to be let into their birthday parties. Come to think of it none of my friends have ever said to me: ''I don't know you name and I don't want to know your name.'' And none of my friends throw my letters in the trash unread.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 01:36:44 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Maharaji is a COWARD! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:18:29 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Duh, course he was there.
Message:
Pat,

He's omnipresent, so how can he not show up if he's there already? If the people who showed up didn't experience him, it's because they weren't surrendered enough, so it's their own fault.

How quickly your wisdom clouds when you leave the lotus feet.

Anth fullovitwherezmeblowuppanda?

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 19:40:44 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Duh, course he was there.
Message:
Being in spirit no adays doesn't pay, especially when he has to find the morgade payment for his plane {s?]
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:19:50 (EST)
From: Mahatma Coat
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: He was a Yes-Show in spirit
Message:
Jaisatchitananda Pat,

Dear foolish boy, have you forgotten that lord can manifest himself anywhere and anytime for the true devotee? Lord never abandons the premie-ji. Guru Maharaji was there in our hearts and we danced for joy to see him and his, Guru Ji Hans Ji Maharaj. Sant Ji has created everything including video tape and satellite dish and now we can have his darshan through television screen. I was so much blissing out, while standing with 2000 so fortunate souls in the Divine Blue Tent, Mahatma Ji was moved to sing a song I first heard in 1972.... 'Open up your heart to the universe of love and Heeee will feeeeel you up'

Mahatma Coat
ps: Mahatma Gloves and Mahatma Keys told me to say Jai Ho bro.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:21:54 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mahatma Coat
Subject: Yes Mahatma-ji, Yes Yes Yes.
Message:
Bholay shree satgurudev maharaj ki jai. Anandakanda Bal Bhagwan ki jai. Jagat Jnani Shri Mata ki jai. Satchitavar kit jai. Bholay shri satgurdev maharaj ki jai ki jai ki jai ki jai.

Anth, not worthy to kiss his turds etc.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 19:19:31 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Don't forget, Hans Bons Ki Jai
Message:
My favorite, Old Hans Bons or whoever or whatever this was he/it didn't always get equal billing.

More often heard was Vishnu Barti, Sakubarti Shri Raja Ki Jai or something like that. Bhole Ji had his own war whoop too but I can't think of it, who cares, I never heard BJ speak publicly or give satsang anyway.

The frenzied crowd roared ...... Heil Hitler

Brian the spotty historian

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:30:48 (EST)
From: Mahatma Coat
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Yes Mahatma-ji, Yes Yes Yes.
Message:
Jaisatchitanda Anth Ji,

Oh dear brother. Mahatma Ji is just so totally happy that you are seeing the light again, by His Grace.

You know, as Guru Ji was saying on video, the door is always open and you are most welcome to return. Guru Ji's most precious Knowledge is just one breath away. So enter the Blue Tent of Devotion and be just blissing out.

Your brother at the divine Lotus Feet of the lord - or how you say in England, your fellow student who is completely synchronized with The Speaker,

Mahatma Coat

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:44:59 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mahatma Coat
Subject: By His Grace
Message:
By His Grace I have felt that vibration from your words of love Mahatma-ji. They slid from the monitor straight into my heart and I was in ecstasy. Then the Captain appeared, in his braided hat and airline jacket and said, 'Anth, thou has offended me. If you think I'm letting you back into the cult, you can Fuck Off. Go join the Moonies or something. You've caused enough trouble.'

I don't know Mahatma ji, maybe my mind came in. Can you interpret this vision please?

Anth just a stick of incest burning at his feet.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:39:19 (EST)
From: Mahatma Coat
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Meaning of your vision, Anth Ji??
Message:
Oh dear brother Anth Ji,

Who is this Captain who haunts you in your waking moments? Surely he is a most horrible demon who stands in the way of the true Guru Ji. Whoever this Captain is must truly be, how you say, total bastard and he can not possibly stand up to true power of God. Guru Ji has come with more power than ever before so time is coming soon when this miscreant excuse for a human being Captain will completely vanish and never bother anyone again. Then you will be happy. That is meaning of your dream, dear brother.

Mahatma Ji can tell you are having correct understanding when you say you are 'just a stick of incest burning at his feet'. That is so beautiful and you are reminding this humble servant that all of us are just burning incest. You are saying you feel the grace through your computer monitor so that is enough of an hole through which Guru Ji can reach you. If you are really sincere, Mahatma Ji can send you standing order form so you may prove your devotion. First of all, you must ignore this Captain and focus all of your heart and mind on the truth.

No more suffering and pain whe the divine colors began to rain.

Your brother at the Lota,
Mahatma Coat

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 04:14:36 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Mahatma Coat
Subject: Yuck! Bad taste.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 05:25:38 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: You should read the Greek myths Peg.
Message:
Find out where Europe (Europa) came from.

Mahatma Ji and I carry out our banter in the best possible taste.

Anth, clearing throat, spitting, proud to be a Europapean.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 11:39:02 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Yuck! Bad taste.
Message:
Peg,

You are right that the Jagdeo comment was tacky. So I put in a special request to my old friend Mahatma Coat and he edited the above post.

Richard

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 20:58:11 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Please pass on my appreciation
Message:
He seems a canny old bird... and in a way it is reassuring that even a great soul can make the odd blunder.

Peg

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 07:45:26 (EST)
From: XXX
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: you prove Erika right
Message:
Is it true that Rawat cancelled his appearance at Hans Jayanti in New Delhi? This post appeared on LIG:

Jayanti Johnny: ''Why wasn't He there?

''After travelling overland to India (well, who would fly these days), through Iran, Afganistan, and Pakistan, I finally arrive in New Delhi to find, instead of 200,000 true devotees and the Master, 2000 bored locals, a blue tent and a video.''

Triple X replied: ''He explained it on his website (safety reasons) Safety for him and safety for all the thousands of happy travellers who would have gathered to see him''

I guess Rawat did not want any stray bombs meant for Kabul to fall on the PWKs a thousand or more miles away in New Delhi. That was so nice of him.

This is the first time in many years that Rev Rawat has not done Hans Jayanti in New Delhi. I guess I better check out the green toilet bowl to see what spin he's putting on it.

Of course his travelling must have been somewhat curtailed due to the suspicions about mid-eastern gentlemen. The only safety he was concerned with was his own. Probably sitting on his golden throne in Malibu reading Playboy.


---

here is what she wrote on her web site (as quoted by Jim):
people are often so committed to a point of view about someone else that they filter everything that person does or says through a pre-existing belief system...and voila! their conclusion supports what they already believe. I see some of Maharaji's more antagonistic critics doing this with regard to him.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:41:28 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: XXX
Subject: That's a preconditioned response [nt]
Message:
Idiot
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:26:45 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: XXX
Subject: Errr.
Message:
'people are often so committed to a point of view about someone else that they filter everything that person does or says through a pre-existing belief system...and voila! their conclusion supports what they already believe'

Doesn't that apply to every thought we have about everything? All opinions are built on previous knowledge and experience. Your perspective is extremely narrow.

A question- do you think Rawat sometimes lies?

Anth, bechadodgeitprovemewrong.

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:12:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New from Erika: 'Filtering out the Good'
Message:
Erika's latest 'article' on PCT is:

Filtering Out the Good

Recently, I've been coaching an executive let's call him 'John,' though that's not his name who thinks that most of the other senior people in his company are idiots. I don't believe it's true, and I'm trying to help him see that holding on to this belief isn't in his own (or the company's) best interests. It's difficult, though: John believes his conclusion so deeply that everything his peers do passes through his 'they're idiots' filter and comes out looking of course like idiocy.

I'm convinced. I, too, need a former PAM (sorry Mike) to help me and my colleagues think better. Is there a word for comedy paralysis when no single joke surfaces because there are just too, too many? There should be.

Here's an example: a woman who works for this executive and whose intelligence he respects recently co-wrote a report with one of the 'idiots' and gave it to him. As John picked up the report, he asked her who had written it. She mentioned the other guy's name, and before she could mention that she had worked on it, too, John began looking through it, saying things like: 'Well, this isn't true,' and 'when will this guy learn to do research?,' etc. When he got to the last page and saw her name on the document, John got embarrassed for a moment...but then he just applied his 'idiot filter' once again. 'Of course,' he added, 'this guy's such an idiot that he probably didn't pay any attention to your suggestions.' The woman was too embarrassed to tell John that she'd researched and written the bulk of the report.

My point is this: people are often so committed to a point of view about someone else that they filter everything that person does or says through a pre-existing belief system...and voila! their conclusion supports what they already believe. I see some of Maharaji's more antagonistic critics doing this with regard to him.

Again my jaw drops. It's Joe Anctil time, Erika! Remember, you point a finger at someone else .... or was that Rajeshwar or someone? Anyway, this is perversely rich. The premies say we exes are too fixed in our views to see Maharaji clearly and we say just the opposite, that they are. But it's hardly a Mexican standoff. Exes are willing to discuss the facts, great and small. We're willing to present our 'case', such as it is, to any impartial arbiters. Hell, we'll even talk with partial ones, for that matter. We're definitely willing to debate these contrasting views with premies. And, of course, we'd take up these issues with Maharaji or his organization as well as evidenced by the countless efforts made over time to engage them, any of them, in honest dialogue. Premies, on the other hand, balk at all of it. Theirs is an extremely closed system and that's how they like it. I just can't believe Erika could set herself up for such well-deserved scorn and ridicule like this. Oh well.

For example, if I were to say that Maharaji has had nothing to do with this site (which is true), many of his critics would accuse him of being cold, distant and uninterested in his students. 'Those poor deluded people,' they might say, 'have put tremendous time and effort into this site and he doesn't even give them the courtesy of talking to them about it? What a jerk.' On the other hand, if Maharaji had been deeply involved in the site, those same people would probably say something like, 'Those poor deluded people have put tremendous time and effort into this site and he's only interested in having everything his own way; he's a megalomaniac and a cult leader. What a jerk.'

This insipid straw man argument could fool no one. No, Erika, it's more like this. You say Maharaji had nothing to do with your website and many of us won't believe you, plain and simple. Why? We've got our reasons. But even if you're right, the most important criticism exes would levy against Maharaji is none less than pointing out how cowardly he is having people like you fight his battles for him. Look, it's fun hashing things out with premies -- I guess -- but YOU WEREN'T MY GURU! Why should you guys be the front line in Maharaji's defence? Is that why they call him 'The Speaker'? Can't he talk for himself? Where is he? Why does he leave it to you to second guess and half-heartedly speculate about his thoughts and agenda when he could deal with these matters, not to mention his former 'lovers', so much more directly? That's the criticism, Erika, not that he's a control freak. We already know that. But what you're doing with your cult apologist site that is too lame for prime time and too skittish for the real world is just a big embarrassment for all of us. THAT's the criticism.

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

I find this 'he's a jerk and a cult leader' filter especially evident when Maharaji's detractors talk about how he's changed the way he describes himself and his role since coming to the west in the early 70s.

From my perspective, it looks like Maharaji has done whatever he considered necessary to remove the barriers preventing people from hearing about Knowledge. This included many things: coming to the West, on his own, at the age of thirteen; changing the way he described himself and Knowledge to fit in more with Western culture; and dissolving the ashrams in the West so they wouldn't be more of a hindrance than a help. Perhaps most dramatically, his efforts have included disentangling Knowledge, the Master, and the relationship of Master and student from the Indian culture that surrounded it.

Yes, and what about the big, pink elephant sitting in the centre of your sentence? What about the entire notion of 'The Master' itself? Or is that a taboo subject that can't even be acknowledged quite yet? Is that something today's premies will have to deal with twenty years on? When they finally tire of the deception and turn back to bite the hand that's been pretending to feed them all along, will Maharaji then deny that he set himself out as 'The Master'? Who'll be the scapegoat then, I wonder. Who?

Anyway, her entire revisionism is worthless. We all know the truth. No wonder they've shut themselves up in their own website with, of course, their anti-anti-Maharaji filters firmly in place.

Has he made mistakes along the way? From my point of view, yes. There have been dead ends, changes that were confusing, swings of the pendulum that went too far in one direction or another. From what I can see, he has had a tendency to shift gears without acknowledging how his 'shifting' might affect those trying to keep up with him.

Careful, Erika! You know and I know that this tepid criticism of Maharaji can only go so far. My read on the situation is that Maharaji must condone at least some nominal criticism by premies seeing as we exes have made such an issue of its absence vis-a-vis all the most important criteria on everyone's favorite cult checklists. You just have to be able to criticize your leader a bit. If you can't, you just may be in a cult.

So this is what premies come up with. A brief, vague comment that The Master may, just possibly may, move a little fast for us ordinary folk once in a while. Sigh -- and he meant so well too, didn't he? He has SO much to accomplish in SUCH little time. But still, even he, in all his wisdom, in all his mercy, has to remember that the rest of us are only human, eh?

Try getting Erika to spell this out, though, and she'll get nervous. Ask her to say it directly to his face and you'll find yourself on the wrong side of a one-way website like PleaseConsiderThis.com.

But far more important than that to me is the fact that he has made the effort to challenge the status quo (even his own status quo) and continually refine the way he communicates the value of Knowledge. Starting as a very young teen-ager, he has worked tirelessly to sort out what is true and important about Knowledge, master and student, and to express it in a way that is timeless, free of religious overtones, and beyond any specific culture or country. I see the transition he has made as an amazing achievement: as a result of this effort, people in almost every country are now able to hear about Knowledge in a way they can understand, without seeing it as an 'Indian thing.'

I always get stuck on the strict return to premie fundamentalism in late '76 through '80, when I hear this nonsense. Tell me, Erika, about Kissimee. Tell me, please, about the ashram satsangs. Tell me something honest for a change. Free from whatever family influence you might ever think Maharaji laboured under, he, and he alone, ushered in, not a thousand years of peace but a few years of heavy, heavy religiosity designed to break the back of any nascent confidence and free-thinking in his cult. No, he's not responsible for that just like Mao wasn't responsible for the Cultural Revolution. Tell me about it.

What happens when you put this evolution through the 'he's a jerk and a cult leader' filter? The changes he's made are dismissed as 'deception.' If his critics assume that Maharaji's goal is to be the leader of a cult, then they will assume he has made these changes only for the purpose of making money and keeping people under his control. But ask yourself the converse. What if Maharaji had kept everything the same as when he first came to the West? Then his detractors would complain that he really IS a classic Indian-based, Hindu cult leader...trying to make money and keep people under his control.

False dichotomy. If Maharaji had stayed the course with the hoary old Hindu garbage, he would have likely exhausted his welcome here around the time the Nehru jacket did. But he didn't and thus his duplicity is evidenced in the path he did take. His real problem is that, sooner or later, premies were going to take a fresh look at the premises they'd accepted on joining the cult. He's made things a bit easier by playing around with some of those premises himself. But it's all a poker game to him. He plays being Mr. No Concept so we end up buying without question the concepts he really can't afford to see threatened. Like 'The Master' one.

And if Maharaji told everybody in the West, 'Look, the reason I stopped saying all those things about 'Guru being greater than God' is because I realized it didn't mean to you what it meant in India. In India, that sort of statement is a culturally acceptable way of acknowledging the preciousness of the Master's gift that God may be the source of all joy, but Guru reveals that joy within the devotee. People in the West thought I was just on an ego trip when I said that. It wasn't helping anybody understand the importance of Knowledge; so I stopped.' How would Maharaji's critics respond if he said that? I suspect it would be you guessed it 'he's a jerk and a cult leader, so of course he's going to make up some reasonable-sounding rationale...after all, he just wants to make money and keep people under his control.'

No one outside your cult, Erika, would EVER buy this gross patent insult of an entire subcontinent. AS IF they don't understand the meaning of words. AS IF they don't fathom the significance of someone publically proclaiming themselves to be the greatest incarnation of God to ever trod the planet. This is gross. Gross, gross, gross.

At this point, I'm pretty sure that no matter what Maharaji says or does, his most devoted critics will find a way to position it as he-just-wants-to-make-money-and-keep-people-under-his-control. Hey, Maharaji could end the war with Afghanistan, stop world hunger and find a cure for cancer and I bet his critics would position it as the ultimate scheme for raking in the dough and controlling everybody.

Interesting thought experiment there, I must admit. What IF Maharaji really did all those wonderful things? Well, if he did them all on a Tuesday I think I'd be quickly reconsidering the terms of my disengagement. It'd get ME thinking, I'm sure of it. But, fact is, Maharaji's doing none of any of that. Yes, he promised to feed and shelter the world but now he's just flying around collecting money. So it's a bit hard to say how I'd react if he ever did anything worthwhile. I sure wouldn't concede he 'Masterness' without some solid evidence in that respect. Should I?

When people filter their perceptions of someone through an impermeable set of negative assumptions, they lose their ability to see that person clearly. Their reactions and explanations become rote, predictable and often self-righteous. If someone is interested in Maharaji and Knowledge, listening only to people who see through such negative filters isn't going to give a balanced view. I would suggest listening to what Maharaji has to say about Knowledge and the Master, and to people who have been benefiting from what he's shown them. Most important, I'd suggest applying one's own filters not those that filter out the good, but those that let it through: is Knowledge something you want and need? Does it feel right to you?

And I'd suggest demanding some honest adult dialogue with the man you're about to call your Master for who knows how long. In that dialogue, I'd suggest that you ask him whatever the hell you want and listen closely to his answers. If any answer fails to impress, keep going. Beforehand, read through EPO. By all means, read PCT as well and anything else the guru throws at you -- oh sorry, I forgot. PCT has nothing to do with him. Beware of filters for sure. Filters and snow jobs.

Back to 'John,' the executive at the beginning of this article. From what I can tell, he's starting to understand that seeing his peers through an 'idiot filter' is a sure way to keep from recognizing any value they may have to offer. I'm very interested in finding out what he discovers when he takes off the filter.

Erika Andersen
November 11, 2001

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 08:01:28 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: **GREAT POST JIM ** (NT)
Message:
oh and I can just about read yes.

Sorry. I leapt in. I have been a bit over-sensitive about the right to maintain fuzzy logic whilst exiting.

Sorry Jim

Loafie

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 12:01:09 (EST)
From: Jerry Manderingh
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: FILTER THIS
Message:
Excellent points Jim. What bothered me the most was not just what was done by m but how things were done by him. Apart from spiritual discourse and dispense of the proprietary knowledge techniques, it was the 'practical' interactions with the man that provided the measure of who and what he was all about.

For instance, margie spared no effort to convince us that we should make great personal sacrifices to serve him but when the winds of change starting blowing in different directions what did Rear Admiral Rat tell the deckhands? Did he inform them of the impending flatulence, or that some of them were to be unceremoniously shat upon? No responsibility, no accountability, no love, just a lot of hot air.

For many of us 'deckhands' involved in various of his grand schemes and projects be they ashrams, plane projects, land acquisition and development, initiators/knowledge facilitators, etc., m's obvious lack of care regarding our welfare were the first 'drips', the first cracks in his carefully constructed foundation. While most of us performed all manner of mental gymnastics to excuse m for his errors in judgement, advice, lack of compassion, we could not ignore the knot in the pit of our stomachs - where was m? Unfortunately, according to those around him at the time, he was partying, living the high life in style - cars, cognac, steros and stilettos.

Instead of explanations and accountability - some fashion of responsibility what did the good servants get? PR campaigns to 'de-mystify' the emporerer now that he stood without clothes before the deckhands. The captain is human after all, but don't expect humility, don't expect contrition, and don't expect an answer.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 12:14:28 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jerry Manderingh
Subject: Land Acquisition Projects - Tell us more!
Message:
Please!

Apart from the place in Argentina and Amaroo, were there other land acquisition projects, and what went wrong with them?

Thanks,

John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:05:27 (EST)
From: Jerry Manderingh
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Land Acquisition Projects - Tell us more!
Message:
Please!

Apart from the place in Argentina and Amaroo, were there other land acquisition projects, and what went wrong with them?

Thanks,

John.


---

Yes, I was referring to the fact that premies in S.A. had done a fair bit of fixing up of the Tierra del amour site in Argentina before m decided to either sell it or not use it - I'm not sure which. Before amaroo this was going to be his garden of eden for programs. I'm sure margie felt no obligation to speak about his change of plans for all those who put in the hard work, er, service.

At this stage, I will admit that it is hearsay, but apparently amaroo is in financial difficulty, if it does go down then no doubt all the good folk who did the hard physical labour readying the land and facilities will be the last to know.

When margie was carrying on the major expansion/renovation of his residence in Malibu, scores of premies worked for free on the major project - some coming from foreign countries - most having to find their own accomodation, food, general living expenses. One poor guy I know from Canada worked there for several months and not once did margie come round to say hello or anything. For this guy, if margie had only done that, said hello, he would have been blissed to cloud nine - certainly that would have sufficed for all his trouble, but like I say, nothing. Unfortunately he is such a cult zombie he undoubtedly has rationalized the experience as a spiritual lesson. Something like not needing margie to acknowledge his effort in order to have the experience of service or some such foolishness. Just another example of margie's uncaring, patrician, caste system.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 00:04:31 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jerry Manderingh
Subject: Everything he touches turns to SHIT!
Message:
God dammit. No matter the attention and work and money and planning and love that is put into any of his major 'projects' they always turn to shit. Or, rather, he turns them into shit.

Take the plane for instance. He considered that shit and sold it.
Amaroo, and all involvement there, that's turning to shit.

I hope he has leaky plumbing in his new mansion in Malibu.

Our hearts, we let him play with us, he turned that into shit as well.
Certainly not the Midas touch I would say.

Maharaji and EV monitors, are you ever going to say anything? There's more of us ex's it seems than there are premies now. Maybe you can win us back. Hardeharharhar.

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 04:48:57 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Everything he touches turns to SHIT!
Message:
I just wrote something similar to Gail above. BTW that new thread at the top was spam and I deleted it along with your post about it being spam. I'm sure you'll forgive me. ;)
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:52:31 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Forgive you? Why............
Message:
I absolutely adore you so what's to forgive! You're cool Pat and do alot of work for this forum, I love you for that and the fact that, well, you're cool.

Love, Tonette

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 04:48:58 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: One day......maybe
Message:
....we'll meet. I was just saying to Chuck today that I think you are so down to earth and sensible. You know I think that already. He agreed with me. Seems like he also reads all your posts.

One day I'll take your hand in friendship.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:06:49 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: That makes me blush. What a nice thing to say
Message:
My posts are so superficial compared to what is really happening on this forum. It's knda embarrasing to think that other people read my posts but I guess they do. Better not let myself think too much about that or I will chicken out.

Someday I do hope we meet. I'll take your hand also in warm friendship.

Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:47:06 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jerry Manderingh
Subject: That makes me feel sad
Message:
This is the stuff that hits home for me.

One poor guy I know from Canada worked there for several months and not once did margie come round to say hello or anything. For this guy, if margie had only done that, said hello, he would have been blissed to cloud nine - certainly that would have sufficed for all his trouble, but like I say, nothing.

and alas! this is even sadder

Unfortunately he is such a cult zombie he undoubtedly has rationalized the experience as a spiritual lesson

Maha, you are an incredibly selfish egotistic worthless piece of shit!

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 10:29:21 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ****BEST OF****
Message:
Erika's latest 'article' on PCT is:

Filtering Out the Good

Recently, I've been coaching an executive let's call him 'John,' though that's not his name who thinks that most of the other senior people in his company are idiots. I don't believe it's true, and I'm trying to help him see that holding on to this belief isn't in his own (or the company's) best interests. It's difficult, though: John believes his conclusion so deeply that everything his peers do passes through his 'they're idiots' filter and comes out looking of course like idiocy.

I'm convinced. I, too, need a former PAM (sorry Mike) to help me and my colleagues think better. Is there a word for comedy paralysis when no single joke surfaces because there are just too, too many? There should be.

Here's an example: a woman who works for this executive and whose intelligence he respects recently co-wrote a report with one of the 'idiots' and gave it to him. As John picked up the report, he asked her who had written it. She mentioned the other guy's name, and before she could mention that she had worked on it, too, John began looking through it, saying things like: 'Well, this isn't true,' and 'when will this guy learn to do research?,' etc. When he got to the last page and saw her name on the document, John got embarrassed for a moment...but then he just applied his 'idiot filter' once again. 'Of course,' he added, 'this guy's such an idiot that he probably didn't pay any attention to your suggestions.' The woman was too embarrassed to tell John that she'd researched and written the bulk of the report.

My point is this: people are often so committed to a point of view about someone else that they filter everything that person does or says through a pre-existing belief system...and voila! their conclusion supports what they already believe. I see some of Maharaji's more antagonistic critics doing this with regard to him.

Again my jaw drops. It's Joe Anctil time, Erika! Remember, you point a finger at someone else .... or was that Rajeshwar or someone? Anyway, this is perversely rich. The premies say we exes are too fixed in our views to see Maharaji clearly and we say just the opposite, that they are. But it's hardly a Mexican standoff. Exes are willing to discuss the facts, great and small. We're willing to present our 'case', such as it is, to any impartial arbiters. Hell, we'll even talk with partial ones, for that matter. We're definitely willing to debate these contrasting views with premies. And, of course, we'd take up these issues with Maharaji or his organization as well as evidenced by the countless efforts made over time to engage them, any of them, in honest dialogue. Premies, on the other hand, balk at all of it. Theirs is an extremely closed system and that's how they like it. I just can't believe Erika could set herself up for such well-deserved scorn and ridicule like this. Oh well.

For example, if I were to say that Maharaji has had nothing to do with this site (which is true), many of his critics would accuse him of being cold, distant and uninterested in his students. 'Those poor deluded people,' they might say, 'have put tremendous time and effort into this site and he doesn't even give them the courtesy of talking to them about it? What a jerk.' On the other hand, if Maharaji had been deeply involved in the site, those same people would probably say something like, 'Those poor deluded people have put tremendous time and effort into this site and he's only interested in having everything his own way; he's a megalomaniac and a cult leader. What a jerk.'

This insipid straw man argument could fool no one. No, Erika, it's more like this. You say Maharaji had nothing to do with your website and many of us won't believe you, plain and simple. Why? We've got our reasons. But even if you're right, the most important criticism exes would levy against Maharaji is none less than pointing out how cowardly he is having people like you fight his battles for him. Look, it's fun hashing things out with premies -- I guess -- but YOU WEREN'T MY GURU! Why should you guys be the front line in Maharaji's defence? Is that why they call him 'The Speaker'? Can't he talk for himself? Where is he? Why does he leave it to you to second guess and half-heartedly speculate about his thoughts and agenda when he could deal with these matters, not to mention his former 'lovers', so much more directly? That's the criticism, Erika, not that he's a control freak. We already know that. But what you're doing with your cult apologist site that is too lame for prime time and too skittish for the real world is just a big embarrassment for all of us. THAT's the criticism.

Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

I find this 'he's a jerk and a cult leader' filter especially evident when Maharaji's detractors talk about how he's changed the way he describes himself and his role since coming to the west in the early 70s.

From my perspective, it looks like Maharaji has done whatever he considered necessary to remove the barriers preventing people from hearing about Knowledge. This included many things: coming to the West, on his own, at the age of thirteen; changing the way he described himself and Knowledge to fit in more with Western culture; and dissolving the ashrams in the West so they wouldn't be more of a hindrance than a help. Perhaps most dramatically, his efforts have included disentangling Knowledge, the Master, and the relationship of Master and student from the Indian culture that surrounded it.

Yes, and what about the big, pink elephant sitting in the centre of your sentence? What about the entire notion of 'The Master' itself? Or is that a taboo subject that can't even be acknowledged quite yet? Is that something today's premies will have to deal with twenty years on? When they finally tire of the deception and turn back to bite the hand that's been pretending to feed them all along, will Maharaji then deny that he set himself out as 'The Master'? Who'll be the scapegoat then, I wonder. Who?

Anyway, her entire revisionism is worthless. We all know the truth. No wonder they've shut themselves up in their own website with, of course, their anti-anti-Maharaji filters firmly in place.

Has he made mistakes along the way? From my point of view, yes. There have been dead ends, changes that were confusing, swings of the pendulum that went too far in one direction or another. From what I can see, he has had a tendency to shift gears without acknowledging how his 'shifting' might affect those trying to keep up with him.

Careful, Erika! You know and I know that this tepid criticism of Maharaji can only go so far. My read on the situation is that Maharaji must condone at least some nominal criticism by premies seeing as we exes have made such an issue of its absence vis-a-vis all the most important criteria on everyone's favorite cult checklists. You just have to be able to criticize your leader a bit. If you can't, you just may be in a cult.

So this is what premies come up with. A brief, vague comment that The Master may, just possibly may, move a little fast for us ordinary folk once in a while. Sigh -- and he meant so well too, didn't he? He has SO much to accomplish in SUCH little time. But still, even he, in all his wisdom, in all his mercy, has to remember that the rest of us are only human, eh?

Try getting Erika to spell this out, though, and she'll get nervous. Ask her to say it directly to his face and you'll find yourself on the wrong side of a one-way website like PleaseConsiderThis.com.

But far more important than that to me is the fact that he has made the effort to challenge the status quo (even his own status quo) and continually refine the way he communicates the value of Knowledge. Starting as a very young teen-ager, he has worked tirelessly to sort out what is true and important about Knowledge, master and student, and to express it in a way that is timeless, free of religious overtones, and beyond any specific culture or country. I see the transition he has made as an amazing achievement: as a result of this effort, people in almost every country are now able to hear about Knowledge in a way they can understand, without seeing it as an 'Indian thing.'

I always get stuck on the strict return to premie fundamentalism in late '76 through '80, when I hear this nonsense. Tell me, Erika, about Kissimee. Tell me, please, about the ashram satsangs. Tell me something honest for a change. Free from whatever family influence you might ever think Maharaji laboured under, he, and he alone, ushered in, not a thousand years of peace but a few years of heavy, heavy religiosity designed to break the back of any nascent confidence and free-thinking in his cult. No, he's not responsible for that just like Mao wasn't responsible for the Cultural Revolution. Tell me about it.

What happens when you put this evolution through the 'he's a jerk and a cult leader' filter? The changes he's made are dismissed as 'deception.' If his critics assume that Maharaji's goal is to be the leader of a cult, then they will assume he has made these changes only for the purpose of making money and keeping people under his control. But ask yourself the converse. What if Maharaji had kept everything the same as when he first came to the West? Then his detractors would complain that he really IS a classic Indian-based, Hindu cult leader...trying to make money and keep people under his control.

False dichotomy. If Maharaji had stayed the course with the hoary old Hindu garbage, he would have likely exhausted his welcome here around the time the Nehru jacket did. But he didn't and thus his duplicity is evidenced in the path he did take. His real problem is that, sooner or later, premies were going to take a fresh look at the premises they'd accepted on joining the cult. He's made things a bit easier by playing around with some of those premises himself. But it's all a poker game to him. He plays being Mr. No Concept so we end up buying without question the concepts he really can't afford to see threatened. Like 'The Master' one.

And if Maharaji told everybody in the West, 'Look, the reason I stopped saying all those things about 'Guru being greater than God' is because I realized it didn't mean to you what it meant in India. In India, that sort of statement is a culturally acceptable way of acknowledging the preciousness of the Master's gift that God may be the source of all joy, but Guru reveals that joy within the devotee. People in the West thought I was just on an ego trip when I said that. It wasn't helping anybody understand the importance of Knowledge; so I stopped.' How would Maharaji's critics respond if he said that? I suspect it would be you guessed it 'he's a jerk and a cult leader, so of course he's going to make up some reasonable-sounding rationale...after all, he just wants to make money and keep people under his control.'

No one outside your cult, Erika, would EVER buy this gross patent insult of an entire subcontinent. AS IF they don't understand the meaning of words. AS IF they don't fathom the significance of someone publically proclaiming themselves to be the greatest incarnation of God to ever trod the planet. This is gross. Gross, gross, gross.

At this point, I'm pretty sure that no matter what Maharaji says or does, his most devoted critics will find a way to position it as he-just-wants-to-make-money-and-keep-people-under-his-control. Hey, Maharaji could end the war with Afghanistan, stop world hunger and find a cure for cancer and I bet his critics would position it as the ultimate scheme for raking in the dough and controlling everybody.

Interesting thought experiment there, I must admit. What IF Maharaji really did all those wonderful things? Well, if he did them all on a Tuesday I think I'd be quickly reconsidering the terms of my disengagement. It'd get ME thinking, I'm sure of it. But, fact is, Maharaji's doing none of any of that. Yes, he promised to feed and shelter the world but now he's just flying around collecting money. So it's a bit hard to say how I'd react if he ever did anything worthwhile. I sure wouldn't concede he 'Masterness' without some solid evidence in that respect. Should I?

When people filter their perceptions of someone through an impermeable set of negative assumptions, they lose their ability to see that person clearly. Their reactions and explanations become rote, predictable and often self-righteous. If someone is interested in Maharaji and Knowledge, listening only to people who see through such negative filters isn't going to give a balanced view. I would suggest listening to what Maharaji has to say about Knowledge and the Master, and to people who have been benefiting from what he's shown them. Most important, I'd suggest applying one's own filters not those that filter out the good, but those that let it through: is Knowledge something you want and need? Does it feel right to you?

And I'd suggest demanding some honest adult dialogue with the man you're about to call your Master for who knows how long. In that dialogue, I'd suggest that you ask him whatever the hell you want and listen closely to his answers. If any answer fails to impress, keep going. Beforehand, read through EPO. By all means, read PCT as well and anything else the guru throws at you -- oh sorry, I forgot. PCT has nothing to do with him. Beware of filters for sure. Filters and snow jobs.

Back to 'John,' the executive at the beginning of this article. From what I can tell, he's starting to understand that seeing his peers through an 'idiot filter' is a sure way to keep from recognizing any value they may have to offer. I'm very interested in finding out what he discovers when he takes off the filter.

Erika Andersen
November 11, 2001


---

Great Post, Jim.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:54:06 (EST)
From: Patrick Wilson
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: New from Erika: 'Filtering out the Good'
Message:
When people filter their perceptions of someone through an impermeable set of negative assumptions, they lose their ability to see that person clearly. Their reactions and explanations become rote, predictable and often self-righteous. If someone is interested in Maharaji and Knowledge, listening only to people who see through such negative filters isn't going to give a balanced view.

Neither, of course, is listening to people who see through such very 'positive' filters as Erika going to give a balanced view. Surely people who are interested in Maharaji and knowledge are not going to only 'listen to people who see through such negative filters' if they've got any sense.

Surely what people really deserve, if they are indeed to have a balanced viewpoint, are facts not opinions. At the end of the day the biased viewpoints of people who are for or against are not really enough to establish a true picture.

It is interesting that Erika's site is pre-occupied with promulgating only the positive viewpoints of premie contributors and not really any facts that would be considered news. I mean the positive facts about M and K are well known already.

EPO, on the other hand, has published a few startling new facts - via Dettmers and the rest - which were hitherto really unknown to the world.

The interest and controversy that these bits of information have stirred up makes Erika's efforts to bend over backwards being positive, seem just a little inneffective - even desperately futile if they are supposed to be an attempt at countering the allegations. Of course she's welcome to set the record straight - but anything less than directly denying or explaining the actual allegations frankly will not do for people who are struggling to make sense of how trustworthy a Master can be who is alleged to behave in unsavoury (un-Savioury?) and duplicitous ways that are kept secret.

One thing which I confess that Maharaji has achieved is to inspire incredible loyalty from people like Erica - which is franky a little worrying. As we can see from history repeating itself today, unfortunately people who trust so sincerely and trustingly in a person, or a cause, are often the last to see that their leader is corrupt or leading them up the creek without a paddle.

No, I think what should happen is that Maharaji should publically admit his affairs, the 'killing the cyclist' etc. and the alcoholism - or publicly deny it. This is the ONLY course of action, in my opinion, that offers Maharaji any means to ressurect the credibility that he has already lost due to these allegations.

Yesterday an aspiring Scottish politician sensibly gave an elaborate public confession of his past extra-marital affair so that he could pre-empt any future criticism for having had skeletons in his cupboard which would otherwise undoubtedly have threatened the prominent career he hoped for. It clearly behoves those in positions of public responsibilty or who seek the trust of others (as Maharaji arguably is because of the powerful trust dynamic between premie and Master) to be upfront and confess their sins if they have any. The fact that such people have the guts to be publicly remorseful goes a long way to letting them off the hook. (even if they are insincere - funnily enough).

Maharaji has yet failed to do this and so it is likely that he will be judged more harshly for trying to trying to keep embarrasments secret for as long as he can.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 04:16:45 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Shooting fish in a barrel
Message:
I'm sorry I can't join in, Jim. I don't have the stomach for shooting fish in a barrel. Like you, I wonder why nice PWKs are doing all the talking for Rawat. It just doesn't seem fair. They're such sitting ducks. Poor Erika - an E for effort.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:25:39 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: New from Erika: 'Filtering out the Good'
Message:
I'm glad I'm not Erika's twin any longer. The filter she keeps pontificating about should be reversed. She's the one with the rose colored filter.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:32:18 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: She should try not filtering out INFORMATION...
Message:
Erika could try opeing both her left eye and her right, and having a good look at EVERYTHING. Filters are for fishtanks and tap water, not information. Unless you are a propagandist.

For two years while reading information on EPO, I kept making excuses for the Goober, trying to accentuate the positive. Eventually I got tired trying ONLY to see the good in M., and trying to ignore or excuse or explain away the bad. Why should I have to filter ANY information about M? In fact, during those two years, M would sometimes make vague references to his ''critics'', saying it was all a misunderstanding. I waited for him to explain. I thought there MUST be explanations, so I tried very hard to see the good, and waited for him to explain. I waited and waited, in vain. All's we get is the ''leave no room for doubt in your mind'' and ''never doubt the purity of the Master'' schtick. Very self-serving.

That's the big difference between the premie apologists and the ex-premies. We ARE willing to hear Maharaji state his side of things. He CAN post on this forum. He can post on my website, or EPO, or his website, anywhere. We are all willing to let him explain to us what we have misunderstood. But he says nothing, and his apologists make excuses for him, but they don't want to talk about it, either. We provide links to the premie forum (which was started by an expremie, for premies), we provide links to premie websites, they never link to ours. M's anonymous thugs, the CAC attackers, are trying to silence us. Someone is definitely filtering something, and it's not the ex-premies.

When, as a premie, I finally decided not to be afraid to just look honesty at what I was involved with, and to look at everything, information from as many sources as possible, and to consider and scrutinize it all, WITHOUT FILTERING ANYTHING out, good or bad, I was finally able to see the larger, complete picture, and I had to ask myself honestly, what was I getting out of it all, and if there was anything good, how much did it really have to do with the Goober? Was he really supplying anything that couldn't be gotten elsewhere? How happy could I be when I was involved with something that could only be considered a good thing if I never doubted or questioned it? If it couldn't hold up to scrutiny, then how good was it, how true was it? Why does anything true need to be protected from scrutiny? It doesn't.

Erika, why should anyone have to sacrifice honesty in order to be happy? What kind of person would ask you to do that? Oh, but you don't want to talk about it. It's no wonder. It's a lot easier (and safer) to just make up objections we haven't made and argue against those, and ignore what we really say and refuse to talk to us. You just do your best to be a nice, presentable public face for the cult, while the anonymous thugs in your cult do everything they can to silence the ''ex-student's'' who just wish to use their right to free speech, and talk about their experiences and talk about the many things that were hidden from them.

Mabye you really are nice, Erika. Just remember that even really nice people can be duped into defending liars. I certainly was.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 10:36:51 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: sheeesh another ****BEST****
Message:
Erika could try opeing both her left eye and her right, and having a good look at EVERYTHING. Filters are for fishtanks and tap water, not information. Unless you are a propagandist.

For two years while reading information on EPO, I kept making excuses for the Goober, trying to accentuate the positive. Eventually I got tired trying ONLY to see the good in M., and trying to ignore or excuse or explain away the bad. Why should I have to filter ANY information about M? In fact, during those two years, M would sometimes make vague references to his ''critics'', saying it was all a misunderstanding. I waited for him to explain. I thought there MUST be explanations, so I tried very hard to see the good, and waited for him to explain. I waited and waited, in vain. All's we get is the ''leave no room for doubt in your mind'' and ''never doubt the purity of the Master'' schtick. Very self-serving.

That's the big difference between the premie apologists and the ex-premies. We ARE willing to hear Maharaji state his side of things. He CAN post on this forum. He can post on my website, or EPO, or his website, anywhere. We are all willing to let him explain to us what we have misunderstood. But he says nothing, and his apologists make excuses for him, but they don't want to talk about it, either. We provide links to the premie forum (which was started by an expremie, for premies), we provide links to premie websites, they never link to ours. M's anonymous thugs, the CAC attackers, are trying to silence us. Someone is definitely filtering something, and it's not the ex-premies.

When, as a premie, I finally decided not to be afraid to just look honesty at what I was involved with, and to look at everything, information from as many sources as possible, and to consider and scrutinize it all, WITHOUT FILTERING ANYTHING out, good or bad, I was finally able to see the larger, complete picture, and I had to ask myself honestly, what was I getting out of it all, and if there was anything good, how much did it really have to do with the Goober? Was he really supplying anything that couldn't be gotten elsewhere? How happy could I be when I was involved with something that could only be considered a good thing if I never doubted or questioned it? If it couldn't hold up to scrutiny, then how good was it, how true was it? Why does anything true need to be protected from scrutiny? It doesn't.

Erika, why should anyone have to sacrifice honesty in order to be happy? What kind of person would ask you to do that? Oh, but you don't want to talk about it. It's no wonder. It's a lot easier (and safer) to just make up objections we haven't made and argue against those, and ignore what we really say and refuse to talk to us. You just do your best to be a nice, presentable public face for the cult, while the anonymous thugs in your cult do everything they can to silence the ''ex-student's'' who just wish to use their right to free speech, and talk about their experiences and talk about the many things that were hidden from them.

Mabye you really are nice, Erika. Just remember that even really nice people can be duped into defending liars. I certainly was.


---

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 00:58:52 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, Erica's 'true' example is a lie.
Message:
Read it and see that there is no way Erica could find out all the details of this supposed TRUE story that happened to her present client.
'Here's an example: a woman who works for this executive and whose intelligence he respects recently co-wrote a report with one of the 'idiots' and gave it to him. As John picked up the report, he asked her who had written it. She mentioned the other guy's name, and before she could mention that she had worked on it, too, John began looking through it, saying things like: 'Well, this isn't true,' and 'when will this guy learn to do research?,' etc. When he got to the last page and saw her name on the document, John got embarrassed for a moment...but then he just applied his 'idiot filter' once again. 'Of course,' he added, 'this guy's such an idiot that he probably didn't pay any attention to your suggestions.' The woman was too embarrassed to tell John that she'd researched and written the bulk of the report.'

I have heard this story before. Slightly different.
But the magazine that told it didnt LIE and try to imply this was really happening to thier client and they were trying to enlighten HIM and also US.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:12:46 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: That's what I thought
Message:
The story doesn't ring true at all. She is not just a cliche spinning apologist. Apparently, she has to fabricate a story in order to make an apologist point.

Someone's NOT getting desperate.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:01:06 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Write her Jim [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:07:58 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Mahraji Discharged and Acquitted of murder case
Message:
in Nigeria!? Don't look at me that way. Read the text and check the link.

Guru Maharaji, better known as “Perfect Master” regains freedom after an Ikeja high court discharged and acquitted him and eight others of a
murder charge

By Fola Adekeye

Followers of Guru Maharaji, leader of “One Love Family,” a religious sect, might have known that their “Living Perfect Master” and eight others would be discharged and acquitted, Tuesday, last week of the murder charges they had been facing. As early as 8.00 a.m. on Tuesday, they brought Maharaji’s official Mercedes Benz car and a Peugeot 504 salon car into the premises of an Ikeja high court where the nine accused persons were standing trial for allegedly beating to death
Nobert Afesi, a Ghanaian.

The cars were parked very close to the staircase through which they were expected to walk into freedom. In Maharaji’s Benz car were his insignia of office namely a golden crown, beaded bunch of flowers and an unusual necklace.

Naija News

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Naija-news/message/716

Third article down. How many guru Maharajies are in this world with a crown and strange neckless. I tried to reply to this message but I need a yahoo password. If anyone can check it out, tells us what is this is all about.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:21:02 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: not prem pal.this is the other gmj
Message:
this one gets mixup up with ours all the time. this is a different cult in nigeria. remember. 'guru maharaj ji' isnt a name, its a title, like 'doctor' or 'father'
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:12:36 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: got you
Message:
Never heared of this fellow before. Has genetic engineering anything to do with it? you know, all guru Maharajies come from India, buy Mercadeses, go overseas and rip people off. It a standard sort of thing.

thanks for the tip.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 09:18:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: The Nigerian Maharaji
Message:
Hi Salam -
From what I've heard, the 'Guru Maharaj Ji' in Nigeria was a premie who apparently copied M and started up his own organization - with him as the head (this is hearsay, btw - not sure if it's true). I'm not sure if he gives knowledge or not. A couple of people from the Nigerian Maharaji's cult have posted here before - sounds pretty scary.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 19:45:31 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: The Nigerian Maharaji
Message:
Now we're getting somewhere. Any clues as to when they posted? Has anyone contacted this fellow that made the announcement for any info.

and how are you me dear? sorry I haven't written or anything, such is life. I trust you're doing well me dear. and say hello to you know who.

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:14:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Like, duh!
Message:
Salam,

This is the same Nigerian copy-cat guru we all stumbled upon back in the first days of EPO. It's not our Guru Maharaj Ji for, as we know, he doesn't have a Peugot.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 00:17:23 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I don't know
Message:
who the hell is he?
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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 21:18:57 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Catweasel deserves some respect
Message:
If only CW had a real name and a real personality, (anonymity is not only hiding behind an alias but keeping your personality secret and hidden) he would have my unreserved respect because, unlike some other premies who posts here, he is not constantly superficial and sneering. He only does that when he is cornered and that's to be expected.

In a thread below Gail says to CW that he is a nice guy so why is he a Rawat defender. I don't know the man but suspect that he probably is a nice guy. I have heard enough warmth and humor in some of his responses here to sometimes feel regret that he and I are on opposite sides. CW made a nice polite response to Gail. Therefore I will address his argument respectfully.

As far as I see it the premie/ex-premie debate is simply this:

Premies like Rawat and think that he offers a good product and is a good teacher and exes do not agree.

Premies think that, if you do not like Rawat or his product, then they should simply ''walk'' and shut up about it. Exes feel cheated and lied to and sometimes damaged by Rawat, his product and his teaching of it and wish to discuss that.

Premies do not feel that exes have any right to criticise Rawat. They have gloated over the CAC attacks as giving us a ''dose of our own medicine.'' I would agree with that IF Rawat were not a public figure and had not set himself up as THE master of THE knowledge and IF exes were also public figures. However I am not a public figure who has set himself up as the master nor have I become wealthy doing that.

CW said: ''I was fortunate to be around M from early on. Not as on any personal level.(no stopping for that friendly chat) But is obvious he is just what he says he is - a teacher and to me he is my chosen (this the critical factor) Master.''

Well, CW, most of us here were also around at the beginning like you not on a personal level but as devotees of the living incarnation of the messiah which of course enlightened people like you have since evolved from. Like you, I also began to see over the years that rawat was not the messiah but a guru, a ''teacher.'' CW says the critical factor is that he has CHOSEN Rawat as his teacher. However in the beginning there really wasn't much choice. Either you accepted the living messiah or you turned into a rotting vegetable. That's not much of a choice.

CW continued: ''I've actually enjoyed practising knowledge for at least 10 years now. Before I was scatty. About 1989 I woke up to the fact that practicing K was about sitting down and doing it.The words , the discourses. There was nothing over the top or particularily mystical about them. It was simply this 'you have a gift. It is now yours.Cherish it , value it and experience it. Give it a try. And when you forget, I'll remind you that it's still there.'''

Well actually some of us enjoyed and practiced the techs from the beginning and soon realized that any benefit to be had was from individual practice not anything ''mystical'' at all. Some of us then began to wonder why we had to sit around for the rest of the lives listening to the same old boring and elementary ''discourses'' while being badgered for more money to do propagation when it seemed obvious that Rawat was not the best person to be propagating as all the money went to buy him new toys.

CW continued: ''I am not a believer type of guy. What got you through that Airline experience was through your own efforts. He doesn't have a 'hold' on me, never did. I actually like him. He is a very practical down to earth guy. Nothing like what gets portrayed here. And he does have shall we say, a special charisma.''

So what's the problem? CW likes Rawat and I don't and I have every right to say that I don't. My analogy is this: if you knew my ex-wife (one of them) and liked her and were upset that I had divorced her and you then kept singing her praises to me, I would be quite upset. You did not have quite the same relationship with her as I did and therefore may not have been irritated by the fact that she was a greedy two-faced lying harpie. Who the hell wants to be told that the bitch was a saint constantly when you know that was not your experience?

CW says: ''Pretty soon there will be no group thing. Satellite to your home. The website and when he's in our neck of the woods , go along and listen and perhaps get the chance to interact.''

No community, no dialogue, no questions, no debate, no democracy. Sounds like a cult even if it is merely a collection of thousands of folies a deux. The satellite broadcasts are carefully edited. The website is full of revisionist fibs and the events are professionaly orchestrated. This way there is never any danger of the real flesh and blood Rawat becoming known. He remains the wizard safely ensconced behind the curtain. It was this recent development that really was the final drip for me. No accountabilty as a human being to the rest of the human race. No democracy in spite of the fact that he benefits from and operates within a democratic culture which protects religious freedom and without which he could not have gotten as far as he has. He didn't get too far in the USSR and still has not succeeded in China, N Korea or Cuba.

CW continues: ''The thing that has screwed it for many people is their expectations.
I dont expect anything so when things come my way, it's a pleasant surprise. As well a lot of people forgot that they are the same as the next guy and started to enjoy a bit of 'power' (You experienced the rough end of that.)And that behavior is abhorrent.''

What expectations? Expecting another fellow human being to be straight and honest? Expecting a man who sets himself up as a teacher to practice what he preaches? Expecting someone to take responsibilty for damage done to others in the course of using them to become wealthy or in the course of insouciantly changing his teachings while evolving from god to the master? This is a typical cult apologist straw man argument - set up an objection that most exes have not raised and then attack it. Most of us are not criticizing M because he did not meet our expectations to be the messiah. While that is important and cannot be swept under the carpet, most exes simply expect an explanation and apology not revisionism and cover-ups. We realize that he was a dumb Indian teenager so why can't he simply say that and say sorry - like: ''Oops! I really didn't mean I was god or that you would go to hell if you stopped practicing K. I was ignorant but my greed blinded me.'' That would be sufficient to satisfy me. Sure I can kick myself for falling for his Hindu crap but that is not MY main disagreement with him. His greed and deceit are.

CW gives his motivation for posting here: ''The reason I am here? Balance - I'm not malicious , some of the stuff pushed out here is very wrong. The facts are often unsubstantiated. When you were involved you hated the 'hierarchy' lying to you? What's the difference here?''

Fair enough, CW. I don't think anyone will see that as a''malicious'' agenda but you cannot deny that you do say some awfully malicious and spiteful things to exes like calling them ''sad fucks'' and worse. Stick to rebutting our arguments and give up the ad hominems and you will be accepted. Actually I think most exes want substantiated facts and would appreciate it a lot if you corrected our false impressions or challenged unproven hearsay. Go for it.

CW says: ''A lot of career P's are now finding out there is more to life than what they imagined.They now have plenty of free time. It is a freeing time. Initiated by M.
Like I said below, the way it works for me is simple. There is just me ,knowledge and my beloved master. And like Mira, I clean up my hut everyday and pick fresh berries.
The 'hierarchy of participation' is just a big greasy pole. Get to the top and there is nothing there.
Like I said it is really a personal journey and that is the simplicity.''

Also fair enough, CW, but, just as you have the right to do what you want to do, so have we. And this is the crux of the premie/ex-premie debate. Premies think that we have no right to criticize Rawat. Of course we do not have the right to tell lies about him or anyone else and CW is entitled to rebut those. But we do have the right to deconstruct our own experiences and to hold Rawat responsible for the huge lies that he told in the past (sorry - ''mistakes'' from which he has ''evolved'') and the evasions (sorry 'revisions') he is currently propagating.

Also, CW, when you keep insisting that you are speaking for yourself, that is not completely true. You are here speaking for Rawat. If you were simply putting forth your personal POV, I'm sure no one would mind too much but you are not. You are definitely speaking for Rawat. This, for someone who has no need for a master, really is the most irksome aspect of premies. They speak not only for themselves but for their imaginary friend as well.

It really is time that he spoke for himself and had the integrity and courage to post here. Of course, even if he had the common decency to do that, (which I doubt - he treats this forum like he treats the letters to him from premies; it's garbage to be disposed of) I expect his lawyers would advise him not to do so as it would open up a can of worms all brandishing lawsuits.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 02:35:37 (EST)
From: Gail MacDougall
Email: gcmacdougall@yahoo.com
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Catweasel deserves some respect
Message:
First, I spoke to the Cat, and he definitely is a man (unless he has taken some serious hormones--I don't thing so). He did not reveal his name. He kindly offered me some suggestions to enter a Montreal, Canada program.

The big drip that Cat refers to is this (He probably verified that the story I told was true):

The last time I was in Amaroo, I treated a bunch of people to a meal at Daya's Fine Dining. The places was short-staffed. When you are paying that much for a meal, you expect quality.

During my university days, I worked as a waitress, so I offered my services to Daya's. There was a skeleton crew and no training. After my five-hour gratis shift, there was a 45-minute lull before the next meeting. Another bloke from England suggested that I make up two plates from the leftovers (Unbeknownst to me as I had just started, this was contraband. Slave workers were supposed to pay $5 Aussie dollars for nuked macaroni).

One of the chef's requested that I bring the carts into the kitchen. I told him that I still had customers (I did), but that I would have time to haul a couple of them in before heading to the theatre (which I did).

I finished my chores, made up the plates and was sauntering to the other fellow waiting outside when the chef called me a liar and a thief in a very loud voice. He took the plates back (apparently they were recycling the veggies, et. al for the evening meal.

I was so humiliated, and couldn't stop crying. I had picked up a tab the preceeding day for $600, and had worked for five hectic hours for free. I had just finished with my last two tables prior to this incident. Meanwhile, onlookers would assume that I had sneaked into the restaurant and stole food. Owwwwww!

The remainder of my time in Australia was miserable. I had fought so hard to get there on my paid-for, invalid ticket. The driving effort had not been worth it.

Brian pointed out that the Chef was right. I lied to my employers to get the time off, and received my pay (I am no longer allowed to take time off for cult gatherings by telling the truth and a good job is hard to come by.). What a Maharaji addict I was. Nevertheless, I wasn't stealing from Maharaji's coffers.

Cat knew all of this and was trying to help me. He hoped that I would rejoin the fold. As a premie, that is the highest thing you can do for another person. For that, I must give him my respect.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 12:15:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gail MacDougall
Subject: Gail, I'm so disappointed. How could you?
Message:
Gail,

I'm so disappointed in you. How could you take all that without throwing the tray over and starting a food fight? God, that story is horrifying. Seriously horrifying to imagine that milieu. Yech, yech and more yech!

So you say Cat was trying to help. How?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 16:55:12 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Gail, I'm so disappointed. How could you?
Message:
I always have been pretty fiesty, but that day I had a complete collapse. This is probably due to my prep-time fillabuster (to leave enough work for the students for 10 days) and the 27-hour jaunt to Oz.

Over time, I lost all self-respect when it came to cult strangers in authority. I was rather like the boys of Wayne's World --I'm not worthy (bow and scrape)I'm not worthy (bow and scrape)I'm not worthy (bow and scrape)I'm not worthy (bow and scrape)I'm not worthy (bow and scrape)I'm not worthy (bow and scrape).....

Get the idea.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 04:37:44 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Gail MacDougall
Subject: Thanks. Gail, for telling that story
Message:
Yes, I can believe that CW tried to ''help'' you back into the fold. I've no idea what sort of apologies he made for the cult but I'm sure they were said with warmth, humor and self-deprecation. He's good at that - at making excuses for Rawat's appalling behavior. He's just not very good at being rational.

Your story actually made me feel sick. I own and operate a restaurant. I heard that Daya's joint cost 2 million dollars and has been open for three weeks over the past four years. (CW can set me right with the actual figures.)

If anyone knows how the restaurant business works (at least in San Francisco) then they know that, in order to make enough money to pay off the seed capital (it is either put up by venture capitalists who want annual dividends or banks who want monthly payments of interest plus capital and who obviously require some collateral for the mortgage) and simply to break even, you need to gross one million dollars a month or 12 million per annum for an initial capitalization of 2 million.

Of course, if you run a business using money that you have not earned but have received as donations for propagation (and for which you therefore have no respect) and use unpaid slave labor and you have no intention of running it as a serious business but as a hobby for your obscenely pampered and over-indulged children, then is it any wonder that you would then subject your staff to such unethical, uncivilized and unprofessional treatment?

The whole set up stinks. It is a disgusting waste of human talent, resources, time and money. It revolts me to my stomach. It is an insult to anyone with half a brain. I know, I know - it's only maya, it's only money. I wonder how many naive church ladies got carpal tunnel syndrome doing word-processing, spent too little time with their own kids and gave up vacations and brown-nosed nasty bosses to donate that money.

Of course, I suppose CW told you that it was not Rev Rawat's fault but the fault of the ''cult'' which he detests so much. I know it really is sad what terrible treatment Rawat receives from premies. Decent unpaid help is so hard to find nowadays. He really is completely at the mercy of some of the most awful cultist church ladies with stupid concepts.

Only people like CW really know what poor Maharaji has to put up with. He is simply kicked around from pillar to post by the stupid cult-like church ladies while poor Maharaji and CW have to stand around and sigh at how stupid they are and how poor Rev rawat has to put up with such idiots.

Poor Maharaji really is so helpless. Nothing is his fault. He loves Daya so much he just could not resist giving her a 2 million dollar restaurant funded, built and staffed by the labor and donations of those same poor idiotic cult-like church ladies.

Sorry, CW, Rawat makes me puke. And the church ladies make me weep in sorrow for the ride they are being taken on by him and the likes of you who should know better. Shame on you, CW, for thinking that the church ladies are to blame when it is obvious to everyone except Rawat juju junkies that it is your habit which is blinding you to your socalled master's incompetence, selfishness and insouciance.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 21:28:34 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: GREAT Post Pat
Message:
Really, what a sickening story. That's even worse than any drama queen scenario I could imagine. Truly gross situation.

You said it all buddy.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 06:04:40 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Thanks. Gail, for telling that story
Message:
What are you on Pat? Whatever it is ,remind me never to take any of it.
I dont need to be self deprecating. Being way kool, I am confident and happy.I have no bone to pick with those you choose to call CL's.
Gail wanted to go to the Event in Montreal . I tried to help her. Nothing more. Why do you want to turn it into some psuedo christian romp? She wont remember me, but I remember her from Amaroo.
I dont talk about M in the way you described. You do.
Fine Dining?Your figures are absurd.Nothing like it.
Try being rational yourself Pat. You seem to have an over-active thyroid.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 06:09:08 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: My figures are absurd?
Message:
Which figures? Correct business plan figures or your cult's figures? So please tell me what restaurant do you run and how did you capitalize it?
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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 06:31:41 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: My figures are absurd?
Message:
Listen Pat , it's YOUR cult .Your vision . Your hang-up. You are doing the talking. The $2 Mill thing. That's crap.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 13:50:03 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: So,Pussy, how much did it cost?
Message:
Listen Pat , it's YOUR cult .Your vision . Your hang-up. You are doing the talking. The $2 Mill thing. That's crap.


---

I've told you already that I appreciate having your factual input. So how much did the restaurant cost? Of course that would be just for materials not labor as that is free.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:59:53 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: More Cat, Less Weasel
Message:
Cat shows an introspective and respectful side in that post to Gail, I give credit where credit is due in this case. I also had a recent encounter with the Cat over on LG that was quite civil given the weasel factor that we've seen more of.

Actually the take I get on this person is that whoever this is, he/she is as passionately involved in his/her position as many of us here are. Respectfully, we have made different choices in this matter involving our relationship with M so lets talk about those.

Which brings me to the Question of why do you give m so much credit cat? I know it is a matter of choice, accepting him as your teacher and all.

But what does M teach you on an ongoing basis that you yourself do not or cannot simply figure out for yourself over time. Aside from the fact that one of his mahatma's, or instructors gave you a handful of ancient meditation techniques years ago, what has his 'personal' involvement been in your life as a teacher.

This is a pertinent straight forward question Cat, could you enlighten me please.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 06:36:35 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: More Cat, Less Weasel
Message:
Pretty simple Brian. It works for me. He helps me keeps my focus on K. Cant here any-one else out there telling me to 'go within'. That is all there is to it. Lifetime thing for me.
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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 14:25:56 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Go within Cat
Message:
He helps me keeps my focus on K.
So you do not know how to focus on K without help, I see ......

Try this on Cat, Go within, focus all that you want on the inner experience, when you get to the part where 'he' helps you, tell him Thanks, but I can take it from here.

You may be pleasantly surprised at what you find if you have the courage to look

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 16:42:17 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: Go within Cat
Message:
I am not talking esoterically. I mean that the only reason I stay in touch and watch videos , attend events where he is speaking is because he is reminding me to continue to'go within.(I also very much enjoy being with him at Events. Our events here enable an intimacy that is difficult elsewhere)
I dont hear some little schizoid voice in my head. I dont imagine a constant ectoplasmic link. It's just a simple thing. The reason a lot of people here walked to my way of looking at it ,was because they had invented a super hero that would manifest for them in their bedrooms .
Headspace stuff.
What he says. What I do.Nice combination that keeps me practising K. And it doesn't have to be like some mind numbing overly repetitive watching excercise.
Common sense.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 02:25:50 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Very Good Cat
Message:
Sounds warm and cozy and all and I see that you are quite happy with your situation. I wish you the best, I tell you though, there is infinately much more Knowledge beyond the realm of M. And enjoyment of it and life too.

I enjoyed a similar contentment for years as you indicated of your relationship to M&K. I stayed around a long time proclaiming M as my teacher and it wasn't all bad road that got me here. The thing is my journey did not begin with, nor will it end with maharaji.

M was one step in my experience of self realization, Today I choose not to stay in the same class for the rest of my life with one teacher, or any teacher for that matter, no religion , no master, never again.

I got out because I realized it was my time, my opportunity to move on
Common sense and M being the rogue that he is made it much easier for me to go.

Brian the video generator, operator, destroyer

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 05:59:49 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Good question.. Cat.. ?? nt.
Message:
ffff
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:23:03 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Catweasel is not a 'he'
Message:
you could start there.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:26:17 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I think he is
Message:
Not from his name just from some hints he's given in posts.

BTY, do you know what a catweasel is?

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:40:10 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Catweasel deserves some respect
Message:
Well said Pat. I've always wondered if CW is one of
EV's forum monitor.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 03:27:32 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Catweasel is self-appointed monitor, Vicki
Message:
He thinks it's beneath his dignity to participate in a synchronized team with the poor sweet innocent sincere church ladies of EV. He's above all that. He has appointed himself the watchdog for the master.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 07:02:48 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Catweasel is simply itself
Message:
Pat,you simply cant look past a negative jaundiced viewpoint. I am not a monitor for anyone . I am a participant with a decidely different view to you.
The organisation is irrelevant. Maybe not to you, but to me. I have no comment on the organisation other than this'Can the organisation practice Knowledge for me? Can it interact with my master for me? Can the organisation enjoy my life for me?'
You are like the guy with a fruit tree fully laden with ripe plums complaining about the produce section of Safeways selling rock hard green ones.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 03:01:02 (EST)
From: Shri Catweasel
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Catweasel deserves some respect
Message:
Yes I am .I sit in a little dark room on a 486 and wait hours for the threads to reappear. Every tree days the CC drops by with some lentils and rice and a bag of Bliss Balls. It's a tough gig but some-one has to do it. Excuse me, I have to go , the arti candles wait. Now how much gee and how much petrol, oh well , either way it will certainly be enlightening!
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 04:38:59 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Shri Catweasel
Subject: I have a question Cat
Message:
You don't have to answer if it's too personal.

Why do you call yourself 'Catweasel'? Is there such a thing as a catweasel in Australia? If not, what made you adopt this name?

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 07:08:08 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: I have a question Cat
Message:
Catweasel was a wizard. He featured on 60's British TV. It was shown on Australian TV.A very amusing fellow.
Go to your local 'spook' shop. You know; crystals , Oils ,Tarots. Find the American Native Tarot. Read the entry regarding the Weasel. Enjoy. It might tickle you fancy.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 23:56:02 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Okay, maybe I will....Another question, okay?
Message:
So, am I right then, in assuming you are a guy?

And, let me guess your age. Around since the 70's, so you must of been 18 or a little older. Let's see, are you 53 years old? Just a guess.

Anyway, alot of people here don't like you and I wonder about you. Frankly, you are one strange dude in alot of ways but, I do have another question. What would you do Catweasel, if Maharaji decided he was going to retire and the only way to ever see him or be a part of his knowledge, was to buy into, let's say, a time share sort of arrangement at Amaroo. You live in Australia, would you do that?

I can see from some of your recent posts, that you don't really fancy the premie thing nor the participation trip. You enjoy the meditation techniques and get to evolve spiritually from listening to Maharaji. I get the feeling that you perhaps don't socialize with alot of premies. And think that EV is full of so much shit. Allright then, but what exactly is it in you that allows you to turn a blind eye to Maharaji and the way he is as a person. You don't seem like a fool, not at all. You have some wits about you. Fairly intelligent, more than most. So, since Maharaji, as your Master, the one who introduced you to the knowledge thru his initiators, mahatmas, is not to be trusted in so many ways, why are you giving him any of your love. Why do you like him? What is it about Maharaji that attracts you?

Look, I'm really curious about your thoughts on this. I am not trying to flame you nor insult you. I would like to know.

From what I know of Maharaji from my years as a premie and from what has been written here as first hand accounts; no, I don't believe everything on EPO, I don't see that Maharaji is what you could call a decent sort of chap. He has alot of issues and we can leave it at that. Would I choose someone like Maharaji as a friend? Definately not! So, what is it that you see in him when you consider what is now known about him?

I hope you don't think me too forward in asking theses things but, after all, this is a forum which we both seem to enjoy posting here.

From the USA, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 06:28:39 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Okay, maybe I will....Another question, okay?
Message:
I think that I should clarify a few things. I am in that Age bracket. I participate.I actually mix with the broadest cross section of premies.Premies are no different to anyone elsethere are saints and arseholes.
But then I also mix with a very wide cross section of people in general. I am considered a fairly high profile person in the city I live.
I wasn't being esoteric when I said I was around M early on. I meant physical proximity.Still do sometimes. He doesn't phase me in the slightest. He is nothing like he has been diss-cribed here
Here's the rub. Because you dont trust him Tonnette doesn't mean I dont.
The hypothetical is a bit bland. It just wont happen that way. Would I move to Queensland? Maybe. Got a lotta friends up there.Only one problem with Queensland. It's full of Queenslanders!!
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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 20:59:30 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Books to exit by
Message:
It is important to provide resources for fence sitters and new exiters so I suggest we put together a syllabus of useful books. Here are three that have helped me.

Skeptics and True Believers
The Exhilarating Connection Between Science and Religion
by Chet Raymo

I recently finished this book and it certainly did shed a new light on bridges between spirituality and science. His chapter on the DNA of a small migratory bird was indeed exhilarating. Using evolution theory, physics and the big bang, he debunks new age ideas while instilling awe in the universe. He does a great job of describing the enchantment of everyday life and his reverence for the unknown while upholding the skeptic's objective view.

The Monk and the Philosopher
A Father and Son Discuss The Meaning of Life
by Jean-Francois Revel and Mathieu Ricard

A well known French philosopher's son gave up a promising career in science to become a Tibetan Buddhist. The book is a series of conversations between them. East-West, Heart-Mind, Religion-Science, Son-Father. It's all there. One profound part for me was the mutual respect they had in their discussions. Both were honest and unafraid to offend or be open to the other's ideas. I was amazed at the son's persuasive argument supporting Buddhism as a systematic approach to wisdom, philosophy and scientific knowledge.

The Varieties of Religious Experiance
by William James

One day I was on the forum musing about the nature of my unexplainable past experiences such as darshan. Roy, who was posting at the time, suggested I read this book. I must say I have not read it all but, as the title indicates, it describes all sorts of profound and unexplainable experiences. Written in 1902, it was very popular then and holds up today. The book uses his own observations and case studies to propose that individual experiances, and not organized religion, are the foundation of spiritual life.

I found thes above books helpful in encouraging me to continue on my path without a religion or authority figure. Any other book suggestions?

Richard

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 18:26:06 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: A: the Book of Life: empirical self-reliance
Message:
Q: Any other book suggestions?

The Book of Life: think for oneself, learn from the book of one's own life experiences, intelligence, discernment, without jumping onto another bandwagon again or into the trap of a set of conceptual belief systems.

think for oneself, independent of the crowd or one's peers. trust in oneself, in the universal life energy operating within - accepting no substitutes [subjective relative doctrines or human massas/imposters].

the Book of Life -- the greatest truth teacher of all, if we would just pay attention, and also learn from our mistakes [aka choices].

p+l,

PS also, maybe Beyond Codependency [Melody Beattie], or Future of an Illusion [Sig Freud], or Poking Eyeballs: Tales and Delusions of a Cult Loonie: Who is Guru Maharaj ji? (the authorized biography) [Charles Cameron]

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 22:25:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: such
Subject: My fav: The Guru Papers [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 13:33:03 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Books to exit by
Message:
Probably the most influential book I read when leaving the cult was 'Snapping' by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman. Reading this book was one big 'aha' for me, and I think Joe would attest to the value and perspicacity of 'Snapping.' A second edition was recently released, and now includes more recent events. The following is some info on the book.

Snapping: America's Epidemic of Sudden Personality Change

As the information age advances, new ethics must be established ... to ensure that the new era is not one of personal destruction and social
regression but one that upholds and encourages human development and spiritual exploration. Ultimately, we believe, every society will be called on ... to resolve the new conflicts building among competing rights and freedoms, and to develop better ways to help the many casualties on this woolly frontier.... We hope this second edition of Snapping will continue to provide insights and help point the way to a healthier, safer, and more fully human future.
--Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman

Controversial cultists, self-help buffs, born-again converts, political extremists...Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh -- What can they possibly have in common?

'Snapping' -- the term Conway and Siegelman coined to describe the sudden, drastic alteration of personality. The authors show how potent mind-altering practices may impair the brain's information-processing powers and lead to altered awareness, thinking, feeling and free choice, post-traumatic stress disorders, grand delusions and violently destructive acts. Findings in the authors' award-winning 'Information Disease' study of the effects of new spiritual and personal growth
practices -- along with a special postscript on the tragic Oklahoma City bombing and the rise of extremist 'terror cells' of many persuasions -- complete this seminal work that calls for new ways to counter a mushrooming threat to the mental health of America and every civilized society.

The Roots of Snapping
Beyond Brainwashing
Jonestown: End of Innocence
Chaos at Waco: The Death Spiral
The Future of Personality

This paperback second edition includes a new preface by the authors, updates on groups and issues, new information about other religious, political and personal growth enterprises that have attracted large followings in recent years, and a final postscript that explores the tragedies in Tokyo and Oklahoma City.

About the Authors: Flo Conway completed her master's and doctoral work at the University of Oregon, where she pioneered one of the first interdisciplinary programs in communication. Jim Siegelman graduated from Harvard with honors in philosophy and was a Fiske Scholar at Trinity College, Cambridge. Their work has been recognized by the National Mental Health Association, the International Communication Association, and featured in Science Digest, Playboy, People, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, Forbes, and Ladies Home Journal. They have been on The Today Show, The Tonight Show, Good Morning America, 20/20, Donahue, and Larry King.

I can't recommend this book enough. It elucidates thought processes which can initially elude comprehension.
[ Snapping ]

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:17:42 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Right Barbara -- excellent book
Message:
It really helped me around the time I was leaving the cult.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:33:42 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Books to exit by
Message:
anything by john bradshaw and adult children of alcoholics. in the 80's, these gave me the real tools for naming what tormented me and how i was unconsciously trying to blame myself for it. it was the sword that let me sever the ties that bound me. and th e shame that kept me controlled by another.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:16:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: John Bradshaw?
Message:
John Bradshaw? Just another huckster of vapid, new age cliches, some of them -- like the 'toxic shame' thing he came up with -- quite potentially destructive.

Shame on you, John Bradshaw!

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:51:29 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Nice phrase Janet
Message:
Your words ring true and are deeply heartfelt. The following is an appropiatly high standard for any Exit Resource:

. . . it was the sword that let me sever the ties that bound me and the shame that kept me controlled by another.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:15:51 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Books to exit by
Message:
Richard,

I've had a great fondness for the conclusion of Anth's original Journey, where he arrives at two unassailable conclusions. One that we all, including Maharaji, are cult victims. And secondly, that we all are Lord walking in a human body. At least, we are not Muggles !

With which I concur completely. Meaning that we are ALL survivors of the ENERGETIC happening that blew all participants' socks off in the 70's, One no one's been able to explain or fully explain away since. (Ergo the Emperor, naked, still holding diminished court over the sincere, the fear-filled and/or the blind).

And that we ALL walked around for a good 5-10 years (at least) FULLY ACCEPTING Rawat as incarnate Divinity on the planet. Embarassing but true. I think that thought/belief, well circulated, reinforced and prostelytized among us, allowed us to mutate out of conventional 'reality' and experience an enormous dose of bliss.William James would ahve had a field day! Largely due to group thought and expectation + meditation. To have such a large multinational group so fervently operate under a false assumption for so long was an amazing byproduct of all this. Whether it was done under false Godhead pretenses or not,with a rather pedestrian middle-of-the-road yoga technique, does not eliminate the fact that we were - by and large - a group of characters walking around for years with an expanded sense of self. Especially because of our sincerity (that fueled the Guru MOJO Pat has spoken about so eloquently).

The MAGIC of life, and the power of belief and holding SOMEONE (Anyone!) at the divinity level, can trigger states of awareness that could please the scientist skeptic and mystic, one and all.

Why not make that ONE'S own self ? Maharaji's lack of evolution should not hold back our own, whether we be in or out of his current 'Lila.'

This had been my understanding before and since happily 'walking' from the Emperor of Malibu some 7 years ago. The Divinity experience is standard in our original human design. That expectation drew Maharaji to me as the 'training wheels' stage.

As openly as we once entertained the divinity of Maharaji, we must entertain the same in our selves. It will open us up to the life we deserve. At least that's My fence sitter pitch.

There are definite states of awareness that can be achieved through systems that support the individual as a Lord, or God in a Bod.

That the final ANTHem was the distiction between THE and A (Lord of the Universe). It never got sung. Nor can it in any religious cult. That is not what they are designed for. They are there to teach us, painfully and finally, to believe in our own selves.

so let me recommend the various sources below.

Besides the books listed on my Journey:

current websites abound with Magic and empowering stuff

motherwave.com (a darling site!)
orindaben.com (lightbody techniques)
kryon.com (science from the galaxy)
warriorsofpeace.com(astrological/kaballistic windows 2001 space odessey)
abraham-hicks.com (a real belief system designed for joy)
crimsoncircle.com(a teaching from the Ascended community that is down to earth)

the above are not for all, but should be in the mix for fence sitters

AWE.
EXHILIARATION.
PROFOUND.
AMEN !

Mark Appleman

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 22:10:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Don't forget 'The Right Use of Will'
Message:
Some of my other favorites:

A Course in Miracles
The Book of Urantia
The Book of Mormon
The book of Toth

and a few more I can't quite think of now.

There's a lot of truth out there. You just have to take the time to make your own.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 22:13:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Also the movie: 'The Curse of the Mummy'
Message:
The Curse of the Mummy is an excellent movie for really understanding the subtle truths of ancient Egypt. Well, true for me anyway.
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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 22:57:17 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Also the movie: 'The Curse of the Mummy'
Message:
Jim, The Curse of the Mummy is an excellent exiting tool, especially for exiting pyramid schemes. Just be careful you don't get wrapped up in it.

Richard, gotta go breathe through my skin

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 13:31:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: :) [nt]
Message:
Jim, The Curse of the Mummy is an excellent exiting tool, especially for exiting pyramid schemes. Just be careful you don't get wrapped up in it.

Richard, gotta go breathe through my skin


---

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:47:16 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Richard, you make quite a case
Message:
Mark,

Good to see you here. Your post makes a strong case for my premise that exiters need resources to aid in a potentially terrifying process. Rather than terrifying, why not have it be exhilarating and freeing. You've taken up my request for helpful books and expanded it to WWW resources. Since you mentioned your journey, here are the books you listed there:

Mark says in his journey: As I have emerged from my cocoon the last few years, a few books have served to awaken, inspire or enliven me. I recommend them (for different reasons).

Starseed, the 3rd Millenium - Ken Carey
The 12th Planet - Zecariah Sitkin
The Great Turning - Rennie Davis
Conversations with God, Books 1 & 3 - Neal Walsch
The Pleiadian Agenda - Barbara Hand Clow
Ultimate Journey - Robert Monroe
The Pleiadian Workbook - Amorah Quin
Richard continues . . .
For myself, the cathartic emotional release work I did was in the 80's with the Loving Relationships Training and Rebirthing. The powerful focused intentional breathing brought me into my body where I could feel what was true for me. Long held thoughts and feelings would come up for healing and release. At some point I did some work around authority using an amazing affirmation. 'I am the power and authority in my life and others are in theirs'. No need to be controlled and no reason to try to control others. Well, at that point, seeing M on stage blew my mind. Knowing my own inner authority, I had the power of discrimination and I saw M as a highly opinionated, manipulative and arrogant authority figure whith very little of substance to offer me. A bucket of drips in one go.

Currently, because of 9/11 induced post traumatic stress disorder around childhood paralysis, I am exploring the reasons I chose to place my spiritual being outside myself vis a vis giving that roll to GMJ. It is a real eye opener and further returning my personal power and authority. So the process continues.

As Shri Kesey Ji has said 'Further'. . .

Richard

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:58:38 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Above subject is: You make quite a case, Mark
Message:
The edit message feature has gone nuts. I changed 'Mark' to 'Richard' in the Your Name: box and it changed the Subject from 'Mark, you make quite a case' to 'Richard, you make quite a case'. I then edited the subject again to 'You make quite a case, Mark'. If you read the message, notice the subject is correct: 'You make quite a case, Mark' but in the message list it's different. This is totally weird stuff. The machines have taken over!!!

Richard

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:48:49 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Re:
Message:
Hi Mark,
Would love to read you discussing the subject of the boundries
we encounter. Not in regards to leaving the cult, although you do a great job of that, but boundries in general, whatever strikes you as interesting and relevant, and also the boundries that have my focus
at present, the ones like these,
Cant seem to stay in any 'state' except for quite short duration.
Cant avoid problems
Cant go from success to success to success in life.
Cant decide on a mental framework, (attitude ect.) and successfully
lock into it without deviation.
Cant do the 'love everyone' or even 'love someone' thing without
failure.

ect.
I think these boundries speak.
What, if it interests you, thoughts do you have on any of it?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 11:25:04 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: apple4256@datastreet.com
To: bill
Subject: Re: Re:
Message:
Bill

this calls for repeated applications of thre greatest medicine for boundary expansion known in the West:

PINK FLOYD (at a healthy volume, with earphones)

your friend on the dark and bright side of the moon
Mark

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 21:12:34 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Hey Richard, Here's an idea ...
Message:
Why don't you write a book. And use your story as an example. We have plenty of material for you use. You can interview some of us privately for your book. Ask Barry for permission to use some of his cartoons. Their are plenty of pics of Maha from a boy juju to a Man-size thug.

Go for it! I think it will be good healing for you. And, you can use some of the wisdom of sources outside cult material. Also use some to the 'brain' info on spiritual experiences as case studies.

You're a good writer. Write a good book and use some of the proceeds for the not yet but hopefully soon, Abi Bray (sic) Foundation.

cheers,

Deborah

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 11:12:39 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Hey Richard, Here's an idea ...
Message:
Deborah,

Well, thanks for the positive comments re: writing a book. It had never crossed my mind and I'ts probably not in my future. However, it does cause me to revisit writing my own journey for EPO. Starting my journey almost a year ago primed the pump in terms of posting on the forum. I strongly recommend writing to anyone dealing with exiting issues, at any stage. It allows one to put on paper or monitor what has been internalized. Very helpful to process the old ideas.

As to a definitive book, I believe Nigel (or ?) was planning just such a book at one time.

Richard

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:08:02 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Wierd and Wonderfuel
Message:
Don't get to the forum that often, trying to claw my way out of a financial hole dontjaknow, but whenever I do allow myself the luxury of reading a few posts I am always pleasantly surprised by the wide ranging world view of all who post here.
This thread struck me as particularly *some word that I can't think of at the moment but something that incorporates informative, crazy, amusing, poignant and a few other adjectives*

I am still shocked by statements like ...
ALL walked around for a good 5-10 years (at least) FULLY ACCEPTING Rawat as incarnate Divinity on the planet
To have such a large multinational group so fervently operate under a false assumption for so long....

It is amazing we were such gullable fools. But we were young and desperate for some explanation as to what we were supposed to be doing with our lives.
Unfortunately we got the wrong answer, and now some of us are just old and still desperate to understand what the hell is going on?! Despite the disappointment of emerging from all those wasted years looking for peace of mind and the strength to be better people, we carry on. Even though protection of the weary and weak seems unlikely, hope springs eternal in human breast.
The candle is, however, flickering.
Then further along this thread Mark, who is a poet of the highest order, talks about 'the Emperor, naked, still holding diminished court over the sincere, the fear-filled and/or the blind'
and
'the Loving Relationships Training and Rebirthing. The powerful focused intentional breathing brought me into my body where I could feel what was true for me.'
I am not sure what you are talking about Mark but it could be Shakespeare - and thanks for the links.
All I really wanted to add to this thread is THE GURU PAPERS which has been bandied about this forum for years and is a work of sane perspicacity - maybe someone can give details of the authors/publishers as I lent my copy to a premie friend who mysteriously has not given it back.
That's the trouble with this forum - you think it is just the innocent exchange of ideas and a harmless pursuit, but before you know it you are hooked and a hopeless addict bashing away at the keyboard as if there's no tomorrow. Then when tomorrow comes you wish you'd never got involved. ( but then you love it at the same time )
bill - your boundaries are what we all want to break out of - just bear in mind that some do actually do break free.
richard - write a book, write a book, write....it can't do any harm and might even uplift someone's spirit.
I'm off now
berni

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 16:50:29 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: Wierd and Wonderfuel
Message:
Berni,

I'm glad you like the eclectic mix here.

It was a bit jumbled up posting Mark's book list along with my post. I was the one talking about reclaiming my personal power and authority via cathartic processes such as intentional breathing. Sorry for the confusion.

Richard

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 17:15:06 (EST)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: mcduck@echo.net.au
To: All
Subject: Response to David Lovejoy
Message:
It seems a little strange responding to David Lovejoy through the medium of the internet when he and John Macgregor and I could be sharing a bottle of red at a local hostelry, but I suppose it keeps the friction of this argument out of our working relationship. It was also unfortunate that David chose David Roupell, given his lack of credibility on this forum, to post his message.

However, David Lovejoy is a good man and I would ask you to bear some kindness for him if you find that possible. It should be noted he has at least attempted to post an argument rather than indulge in the usual flaming of the flaming Roupells of this world, although he does it without much knowledge of the context in which he posts, and I doubt that he would be persuaded to visit here.

David has been somewhat disingenuous in posting a message which fails to take into account all of my private responses to him. He wrote here: 'Stripped down to the core, John's case seems to be that Maharaji is human and Elan Vital is not a democracy. Neither of these insights strikes me as revolutionary. But Michael agrees, and for good measure throws in his belief that 'brain science' may disprove mysticism.'

I responded in private: 'John will probably answer on his own behalf but his case is more likely to be that even if EV is not a democracy, it is publicly accountable for its behaviour when it acts badly, as is Maharaji (or you or I) as a human being, as it engages in activities in the public domain. You misrepresent me as to my 'belief'. What I did say is, 'the whole history of mysticism and meditation may have no absolute basis, that for example, the experience of bliss may just be an evolutionary mechanism for a big brain to cope with the passage of time or to manufacture hope.' It's a big 'may' and I have no certainty on the topic, despite considerable experience with meditation and psychotropics. The discussion of democracy is irrelevant. The Echo [the paper we edit], of which you are the 'undemocratic head', is not a democracy but it treats those who choose to work there in a more rational and responsive way than does EV its own. This reflects on Maharaji and the value of his work if he is 'the font and origin of the organisation'.

David wrote here: 'In other words, rather than railing against the fact that there is a pyramid structure necessarily associated with Maharaji I chose to withdraw from it. This seems to be an elementary political perception, but John and Michael have suddenly discovered the undemocratic nature of Elan Vital and wish to proclaim it to the world. In fact Michael tells me that he has known this for twenty years but didn't want to go publicly against 'the party line'. (Is there a 'party line' to proclaim that EV is democratic?)'

I responded in private: 'Hardly a sudden discovery, and one that I've thought about for a couple of decades before publicly going against the 'party line'. 'Wishing to proclaim it to the world' is fatuous; the point is there is a serious discussion going on of how EV and by association Maharaji treat people.'

David wrote here: 'Or is it sinister by virtue of its laidback non-sinister appearance, and manipulative because it eschews manipulation? Michael takes me up on this and says it is manipulative at every stage because its sole purpose is to persuade people to accept Maharaji and Knowledge.'

Well, not exactly, what I wrote in private was: 'Oh please. Manipulation is built in at every stage of the organisation, from the 'laidback' video presentations through to the aspirant program, knowledge session, and on to the trainings, the whole raison d'etre of which is to confirm that Maharaji is the sole basis of belief and action, without question. One could say the same of our genetic code, of course, but the question is, does the ends justify the means? If you believe knowledge to be the best thing since sliced bliss, perhaps yes, but one would expect the outcomes of its practice to be an organisation and master a tad more forthright in their intentions.'

David wrote here: 'In the early days Maharaji allowed to be expressed, and in some ways expressed himself, the idea of his godhood. Comparative cultural studies don't seem to have had much impact on those who keep bringing this up. There they are, freaked out like any card-carrying Christian, Moslem or Jew about the blasphemy of a human declaring himself god. Funny how those thought structures remain long after the content has gone: I can't imagine either John or Michael admitting to being a Christian, but it's the ghost Christian in them that is offended.'

I responded in private: 'You could hardly call being brought up a non-practising Anglican as any thing worthy of conjuring ghosts, and it's a big assumption on your part that that's a chord being touched. Let's try hypocrisy instead; if you think Maharaji has demurred from the authority of godhead [sic] traditionally associated with the perfect master, try taking a training with him. It is just not solely the 'sort of nonsense… encouraged by Indians who didn't understand our conceptually unprotected minds'. Mind you, I freely admit I'm not beyond hypocrisy, but then again I don't allow myself to be feted as the 'superior power in person'.'

David wrote here: 'In fact what is going on here in Australia is a federal election which has just been won by a government that gloats over scorning every civilised convention. It is sycophantically supporting the US bombing Afghani civilians out of their homes and then turning them away when they arrive on our borders as refugees. Every ounce of energy is needed to oppose this evil and my two best writers are pissing theirs away on this non-issue!'

This was not in our original correspondence and David tries too hard to take the moral high ground, as I'm sure he's not using 'every ounce of energy' to oppose the machinations of our ultra conservative government. John and I can stand quite happily on our track record in the field of 'serious' journalism.

David wrote here: 'Finally, the obsessive detail in which John reveals his own identity is like some kind of electronic striptease and sounds, frankly, like someone on the verge of a nervous breakdown.'

David has a tendency to suspect the worst when someone veers from a predictable path. I'll leave John to make his own response when he returns from mucking about in houseboats.

On the upside, one could take David's post as something of a breakthrough. It may be the first time a staunch defender of Mr Rawat has put up an articulate argument on this forum as opposed to the usual platitudes or sarcasm.

Cheers,

Michael McDonald

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 15:17:54 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Ghost Christians
Message:
Hi Michael,

I think there is something in this ghost christian idea, however laid back your early religious training was. It has occurred to me that if I had never been introduced to the idea of Jesus Christ as the living messiah of God, I would not have been so ready to accept Mr Rawat as the latest in a line of living messiahs.

His specious argument that Mr Rawat was expressing the 'idea of his godhood' in the early days is a bit silly. Is David trying to imply that Mr Rawat was simply touting the concept of godhood in every human?, in which case, why were we kissing his feet?

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:34:26 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Michael...
Message:
Do you think Glen gave David a call, and asked him to do something. There's usually some sort of response from the cult when insiders who've been around a while quit.

Why don't you ask him. Say, 'Anth says hi and wonders if you've heard from Glen lately?'

I got the impression David didn't want to be involved with the cult any more, so what's he doing putting his head on the block like this?

Bom Shankar,

Anth the lurcher.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 01:20:43 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Micheal Dettmers post to David Lovejoy
Message:
Hello David,

It must be 20 years or more since our paths last crossed. I do remember you and your family and trust that you are all well. I also remember that you were quite a chess master. I certainly have no personal axe to grind with you, but I do not agree with some of the arguments you have put forth in your post. I will not reiterate many of your points that have already been rebutted so far. Instead, I want to focus on your argument that Maharaji is not a democratic leader nor is Élan Vital a democratic organization. Of course they are not.

I also agree with you that most businesses and organizations are not run democratically. Unlike Afghanistan, however, businesses and organizations that function within the umbrella of democratic societies have a legal responsibility to operate within the rules of law that are intended to protect and advance the public good. Now, we all know that no society is perfect in this regard, and there is legitimate and ongoing debate about what constitutes the public good. But that goes to the very heart of what a democracy is all about. One of the great things about living in the USA and other democracies vs. Afghanistan is that there is freedom of speech and freedom of information.

As a masterful chess player, you will appreciate that Maharaji, in my opinion, blinded by his need to hold onto absolute power, and exacerbated by his alcoholism, has made a strategic mistake by failing to grasp the nature of the democracies in which he has chosen to live and operate. With the advent of the internet and other communications technologies, organizations, however undemocratic, have less and less power to control the information they do not want disseminated to the public. Consequently, honesty, integrity, and open dialogue are the only viable courses of action. Maharaji and Élan Vital have failed to learn that lesson, with the result that their lies, spin-doctoring, and inexcusable handling of the Jagdeo matter are being exposed for what they are.

Surely you can’t be serious when you suggest that people should distinguish between Maharaji’s personal live and his mission. How can a Perfect Master’s, or spiritual teacher’s (or whatever Maharaji calls himself theses days) mission be viewed separately and distinctly from the life he lives. And, if that life is characterized by a long-standing pattern of abusing alcohol, women, money, and (indirectly) innocent children (by failing to act in the Jagdeo matter once he became aware of the abuse), most people who know the facts will think twice before becoming involved with such a person and his organization. That is why his mission is grinding to a halt and why long-standing members are leaving in droves.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:19:33 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Sorry Michael but...
Message:
'Credibilty' on this forum is not something either David Lovejoy, myself or any other self respecting person aspires towards.

The fact that you do indicates the level of self esteem to which you seem to have unfortunately arrived. The fact that you choose to attack me in this underhanded way also speaks for itself.

Pompous moralisations from the high ground are easy fodder for a writer. I can do it with my eyes closed. It takes a lot more courage to call a spade a spade, or in this case, calling a disgusting, vicious, spiteful person gloating over their horrible, ugly personal abuse of Maharaji a disgusting, vicious, spiteful person gloating over their horrible, ugly personal abuse of Maharaji .

You condone such postings? (examples of which can be found on almost every single page of the forum's 4 year notoriety)

Your choice pal.

Incidentally, I have never set upon any person who has treated myself or others courteously or intelligently on internet forums.

The others get what they are asking for.

I attack ugliness (as all good, balanced Librans are wont to do) and will continue to do so and am glad that I don't feel the need to consider myself 'superior' in order to mask my shortcomings.

SC (Superior Consciousness)

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 14:41:34 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Ah, Roupell, there you are.
Message:
Hi,

You started conversations with me down below a couple of time, then ran off when I replied, asking you a couple of questions. I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to ask you something.

If Rawat told you to lie, say for example to Marolyn about his whereabouts, or to the police about a road accident he'd been in, would you?

Looking forward to your reply. Hope it's not too hard for you.

Anth straining miserably to recapture the spontaneous sparkling wit of years gone by. (I could have been a contender.)

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 17:22:08 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Ah, Roupell, there you are.
Message:
Anth, if I asked you to gag that overproductive mouth and sit back and try and come up with a civilised original response, do you reckon you could manage it? This ole bait, wait, comic book style questioning is facile.
Have you ever considered wasting your time on the Queen, or the elitist ruling classes of the empire.What about your personal responsibility for the choices in your life you have made? Or were you just too overcome?
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:44:21 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Help. I'm being flamed by a vegi-sausage.
Message:
So Cat,

Would you lie to Marolyn if the Captain told you? Or to the cops, like Sampu did after the Captain killed that guy?

Anth, not holding his breath.

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:49:40 (EST)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Too late to play inncoent, David...
Message:
You've been going off like a two bob watch for ages. It's obvious credibility is something you don't aspire to.

Underhanded? In my own name and not in one of several disguises?

And no, I don't condone everything which is posted here.

BTW, my self-esteem is very good, thanks.

Keep playing St George to the Dragon and give my regards to your better half.

M&M (A Type of Smartie)

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 03:12:00 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Re: Too late to play inncoent, David...
Message:
Now just who is talking to you, Mr McD, Cerise the teenage aspirant daughter of old hippie premies or Marolyn, the hashbrownie baking former hippie instructor or Selena Crumpet whose luscious lips hide a mouthful of snarling teeth and a tongue like a cat-o-nine-tails or David Roupell whose credibilty is beyond reproach in his own imagination?

I have known and loved many an Oz premie and, as I told Roupell, I blame some wonderful Aussies whom I met in Miami in 78 for moving to the US. Does anyone in Oz take Roupell seriously or is he simply tolerated as the local expat Brit nutcase?

PS I thought your response to Lovejoy was very polite and kind. You pulled your punches so tactfully. Very nice. Thank you.

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:51:48 (EST)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Innocent, not incoherent NT
Message:
xxxx
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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 22:09:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Tread lightly on the boss's toes?
Message:
Michael,

You might like Lovejoy. I don't know the guy myself although I think I do recognize the name from cult affairs or publications of yesteryear. But I think that any quasi-objective assessment of his post would sadly conclude that he's attacked, ridiculed and certainly tried to dismiss you two quite offensively. I appreciate that the situation's touchy as all get-out what with him being your employer of sorts. I even assume that you and John are sincerely sympathetic to your old friend's plight as an ongoing member of a too-vague-for-words-but-stifling-all-the-same cult which you've recently escaped. Nonetheless, the guy's been extremely disrespectful to you both. If he can count you two as friends that's only account of your largesse. His is nowhere to be seen.

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 16:55:59 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunny
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Amma - does anyone here have any info?
Message:
'world renowned saint, mystic, and philanthropist....' so her website says. As you can imagine I have my opinion on this - anything sniffing of cult, master and fraud and I run as fast as I can. A dear friend of mine is planning to go to Amma's ('the hugging saint') Indian Ashram for Ayurvedic treatments and TLC. It may be fine but does anyone have any facts that would be useful to my girlfriend?

Concerned Bunny

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:49:28 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: No facts really but please delete this post!
Message:
my daughter went for a hug which goaded me into telling her where I'm at re 'Holey darshan' and such. I asked her if it was a good hug. She said it wasn't really the hug but the feeling of being together in an atmosphere of devotion. Heard that before I think! A friend of mine (premie) said 'I hear she's a tyrant in the ashram' I'll see if she knows any more.

Peg

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 06:43:18 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: No facts really but
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 23:34:34 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: She's Jason's favorite person
Message:
She is Jason Becker's (legendary guitarist) guru and he says that she is a wonderful warm caring and loving person.

If you'd like to see his dedication to and opinion of her it's at

jasonbecker.com

He has Lou Gherig's disease and cannot move at all which suggests that his perceptions would be on high alert for any trickery etc.

I think your girlfriend would have similarly pleasant experience at the ashram but, as usual, it would depend largely on the state of those around Amma.

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 20:05:27 (EST)
From: Huggee
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: Re: Amma - does anyone here have any info?
Message:
Hey Bunnykins
Been hugged many times by her over the years. It's quite wonderful and nurturing - loving, personal eye contact and an opportunity to snuggle in very vibrant bosoms. Very different from what we used to call 'darshan.' Nothing to get yer knickers in a twist about I'd say.

Mind you, if your friend becomes an ashram devotee, let us know. They looked a bit tired last time I saw them a few years ago!!

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 18:45:18 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: Try Rick Ross
Message:
See the web page Other Groups on File. Rick Ross has a file on that group. It will cost you a fee to get the information, but I think it will be small, especially considering the situation.
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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 17:44:01 (EST)
From: Ammachi
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: Website
Message:
Here is a link to her website: http://www.ammachi.org/
She sounds like a wonderful person. She does make a few references to being divine. She has a wonderful online shoppe where one can buy videos, calenders, books.....hhhmmmmmmmmmm.....wait a minute....this is all beginning to sound so familiar.
[ Page Link ]
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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 18:22:30 (EST)
From: Another
Email: None
To: Ammachi
Subject: Website
Message:
http://webhome.idirect.com/~aum108/amma.html

This website has a picture of Amachi with a gold crown on head and compares her to the 8 armed goddess Kali. Amachi is considered the divine mother (durga).

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 17:39:01 (EST)
From: About
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: Amma
Message:
She came by this area once and was on the news. Her followers are decked out in white linen robes and all have that same trance-like aura around them like the premies from the LOTU documentary. They talk about how her hug generates an Energy that you just can't explain, but it is very powerful. What do they call her followers: Huggies?? I have heard she is quite a bitch backstage.
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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 18:33:56 (EST)
From: Nottingham Bunny
Email: None
To: About
Subject: Amma - any hard facts?OT
Message:
Thank you for your responses. I had looked at the main website and my reactions are the same. I could probably fill a truck with my opinions and comparisons. I wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. And as for the other website link by Another below - yuk!

However, I don't think anyone else's opinions really shifted any of us out of our old cult. Quite a few well corroborated facts helped bring us to our senses though.

About - you said she was 'quite a bitch backstage'- in what way and who said it?

Perhaps my friend will go and chill out there for a month or so and come back a little financially poorer after a nice ride or even enriched by some quality wholistic treatments. Fine. No big deal compared to surrendering the whole of one's adult life. But if anyone has any cautionary tales, then I would be grateful.

Thanks

Bunny

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 07:10:05 (EST)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Nottingham Bunny
Subject: Don't trust Amma
Message:
I am a friend of B. Premanand, the famous anti-guru of India, who is the editor of the Indian Skeptic and has done probably more than any other person in the world to expose gurus. Especially, he has been active in bringing down Sai Baba. According to him, Ammachi is a very crooked individual. As a young girl, she and a group of other girls pretended to be possessed by spirits in order to cheat money from naive people. They were caught by the police and chased away from their village.
Later, she settled herself up as a divine guru in Kerala, India. She is suspected to have been involved in the murder of her own brother, who did not believe in her divinity. I would not trust her for a minute.

Kaj (aka Happy)

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Date: Tues, Nov 13, 2001 at 13:28:25 (EST)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: All
Subject: OT: Afganistan is FREE! of the Taliban
Message:
But it still remains to be seen if a new government can be created, by the Afgan people themselves, and bin Laden/el Quayda (sp) still need to be rooted out.

Yet the signs of the Afgans being perhaps able to avoid civil war and create something all Afgans can life with, thus far, are good. The Northern Alliance took Kabul when the Taliban abandoned it, yes; but they are inviting the tribal leaders to meet with them for talks to lead to a wide based government and are being careful to do 'security of the people of Kabuk' type occupation, as opposed to a military style occupation, only.

And hunting down the terrorists and any pockets of Taliban who seek to be gurillas, while it will likely be time consuming, will now be easier to do, and much less risky.

And, truly, Life is Great! This whole Taliban, war againsr Afganistan, thing, has wrapped itself up far more quickly than anyone could have reasonably hoped for.

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 05:53:51 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: be chary of premature beliefs
Message:
Just because the taliban left kabul does not mean the afghans are free of them. and getting the entirety of afghanistan to agree on a government will be no simpe task.
bin laden is not the taliban and the taliban are not the wanted. the world is a big place and bin laden has money and connections. did we go into the country to topple th government and install a new one, or did we go in to catch one man?
remember the history and the chain of events.
and the real terrorism is going to be from our own government here on US soil. the PATRIOT ACT is a blank check to suspend the constitution and inflict the selfsame torments upon the populace that we reviled in soviet russia and in the taliban itself.
the deeper into this we allow ourselves t go, the more like our supossed enemies we promise to become.

i do however, take some amusement in that the afghans acted against the counsel fot he US advisors and moved on kabul before the USs wanted them to. If it wraps up sooner than anticipated, suddenly the PR machine in washington loses all that material they were counting on to keep the country in sacrifice mode. i like it. rob them of their favorite weapons for getting their way. embarass them, catch em with their pant sdown, force em to drop the plan and go back to being accountable.
it is a good day for te aghan women. i hope they have a public bonfire and burn their burkas in glee.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 00:49:03 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: That's offensive Janet
Message:
and the real terrorism is going to be from our own government here on US soil. the PATRIOT ACT is a blank check to suspend the constitution and inflict the selfsame torments upon the populace that we reviled in soviet russia and in the taliban itself.
the deeper into this we allow ourselves t go, the more like our supossed enemies we promise to become.

That is extemely offensive. What do you think of my nephew, the Marine, who is in Afghanistan saving you fat ass from these terroists?
Yeah, he is killing people so they don't come and kill you or make you don a burka. So, as a son from US soil, is inflicting the same torment as the Taliban?

How offensive can you be?

I agree with Jim, put your shit comments on AG!

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Date: Wed, Nov 14, 2001 at 17:38:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Keep this garbage on AG, Janet
Message:
and the real terrorism is going to be from our own government here on US soil. the PATRIOT ACT is a blank check to suspend the constitution and inflict the selfsame torments upon the populace that we reviled in soviet russia and in the taliban itself.
the deeper into this we allow ourselves t go, the more like our supossed enemies we promise to become.

I'm thinking of a tie-in to John Bradshaw but why bother? Janet, your comments are sick. Keep them on AG, please!




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