Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Nov 13, 2001 To: Nov 18, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


John Macgregor -:- Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings) -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:50:11 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- My take on your question -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:40:16 (EST)
__ __ G -:- darshan -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:20:41 (EST)
__ Susan -:- thank you. Extrememly interesting. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:56:33 (EST)
__ Jane Slater -:- Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings) -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:02:32 (EST)
__ Jane Slater -:- Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings) -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:02:24 (EST)
__ bill -:- I am officially at war. [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 11:30:48 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Plucking, sucking and mind-fucking. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 08:42:16 (EST)
__ Julian -:- This comes to mind -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 23:44:33 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Getting littler and sadder all the time -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:18:05 (EST)
__ PatD -:- Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings) -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:38:10 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- and did we fight that mind, PatD -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:58:39 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings) -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:15:41 (EST)
__ Moley -:- ***THIS WHOLE THREAD IS AMAZING*** -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:34:58 (EST)
__ Jim -:- 'Training' as in for dogs -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:14:42 (EST)
__ Nick -:- Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings) -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:40:47 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Are you OK Nigel? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:36:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Well I'm dribbling a bit... -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 11:25:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Dur, blubber, blib, blab. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 12:29:01 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- A whole new ballgame -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:14:22 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Nick, thanks for your input -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:45:13 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Wow, Nick! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:32:12 (EST)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- A concession, Jim? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 11:06:27 (EST)
__ __ Moley -:- Dear Nick - brilliant -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:28:11 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Euphoria and the darshan rush... -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 16:56:57 (EST)
__ __ Loaf -:- wonderful Nige [nt] -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:27:04 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Excellent as always, Nige -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:34:08 (EST)
__ __ __ Nige -:- make that 'anti-psychologist'... -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:48:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, the momentum's unmistakable, isn't it? -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:53:00 (EST)
__ Carl -:- Psychological Terrorist & Abuser -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 16:23:15 (EST)
__ Suzanne -:- Astounding -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 15:47:27 (EST)
__ G -:- Two and two is five. -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 15:17:02 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Great Information and Insight -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 15:16:32 (EST)
__ HEY -:- Catweasel, are you around? -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 14:44:02 (EST)
__ __ CW -:- My oh me -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 18:50:11 (EST)
__ __ __ G -:- not impressionism -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 00:04:51 (EST)
__ __ __ Hey -:- yoru 'daddy's' company -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:56:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- FA- THERE'S A FLAMER A'FLAMING -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:03:02 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Poor, poor Catweasel -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:37:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Poor, poor Catweasel -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 02:29:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- weaselly words -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 00:17:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Fairy Floss Brain -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 17:51:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Fairy Floss Brain -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:08:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- John T, I dont read YOUR posts. -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:55:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Muggle fool! -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 09:52:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Muggle fool! -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 14:05:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Don't you just that logic ;) -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:47:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- EVERYONE'S vision is 'subjective'! -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:17:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: EVERYONE'S vision is 'subjective'! -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:42:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Sheesh, I just asked! -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:04:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cult Chronicler -:- Mahatma Weasel Ji proclaims that.... -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:50:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Poor, PATHETIC Cat -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:27:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Piss off -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 02:43:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Ve-r-r-ry funny post Jim -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 23:33:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's interesting. What'd THEY say? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:15:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Poor, poor Catweasel -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:27:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Bullshit Jim -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:52:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- FACTS, eh, Cat? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:02:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Moll of Mole -:- Re: Poor, poor Catweasel -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 02:42:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Catweasel laughing. -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 02:34:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Poor, poor Catweasel -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:43:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Not by you possums -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 17:56:25 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- Premies are 'vermin', perhaps...? -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:20:06 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings) -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:52:05 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Psychological Torture By Maharaji! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:41:26 (EST)
__ __ JohnT -:- with professional assistance -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:11:10 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Isn't this a logical extension of the late 70's? -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:40:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- No Jim, it's not reminiscent -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:28:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Deb, I'll kick your ass on this one -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:36:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Deserved -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 23:26:16 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Please, may I go throw up now?? -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 14:58:56 (EST)
__ __ Gregg -:- My Browser crashes rdg John's post. Others OK!? nt -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:11:45 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- criminal hacker alert/warning! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:10:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Innocent Bystander -:- Re: criminal hacker alert/warning! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:54:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Such-Could it have been due to the -:- new pr firm info you uncovered? -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:31:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Offer -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:40:59 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: My Browser crashes rdg John's post. Suggestion -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:26:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: My Browser crashes rdg John's post. Suggestion -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:47:16 (EST)
__ Moley -:- *** UTTERLY DAMNING*** -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:46:38 (EST)
__ berni -:- Nothing's changed then. -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:05:58 (EST)
__ Katie -:- VERY scary -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 09:23:57 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- And no wonder you wrote this... -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 09:37:21 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Good point, Katie -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:46:38 (EST)
__ wolfie -:- too much bad smell -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 06:57:37 (EST)
__ __ Jethro -:- Re: The gardener -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 07:43:39 (EST)
__ __ Peg -:- Wolfie! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 07:32:46 (EST)
__ __ __ come on . . . -:- Re: Wolfie! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:56:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Moley -:- Come on - you're wrong - -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:18:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ I hope not . . . -:- Re: Come on - you're wrong - -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 18:04:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: Come on - you're wrong - -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:43:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK, that's a joke, right Loaf? -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:20:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Its a joke Jim -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 07:10:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nige -:- Re: Come on - you're wrong - -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 18:45:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Give us a break -:- Nigel -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:38:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- Are you a moron? -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:14:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ad hominen -:- moron? -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 22:33:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- says you -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:41:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sesame -:- Re: says you -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:43:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- Sesame, see Police Battalion 101 -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 11:42:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Hello Sesame! -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:25:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- No comment. [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:09:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Use a handle, a name, something -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:49:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- To 'I hope not'- what the buggery -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 18:48:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks for saying that Moley... [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:38:37 (EST)
__ __ __ Moley -:- Becoming a premie - or a Nazi -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:09:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ berni -:- I don't believe you Moley! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 16:21:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, I believe her alright -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:01:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- Berni - don't overestimate human nature -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:57:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- remember Pat Halley.+WPC,m's security goons -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:26:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Two chilling reminders... -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:53:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Links to info re experiments -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:05:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ I don't buy it -:- Apologies R Us -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 18:41:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- not the point -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:36:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sigh.... -:- Re: not the point -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 04:19:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- responsibility -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:15:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Greetings G -:- Re: responsibility -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:27:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- responsibility, mutual support -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:43:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: Apologies R Us -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:07:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ It's like this . . . -:- Re: Apologies R Us -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:12:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- more of a warning -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:00:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- 'Rude' you mean -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:16:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- To 'I don't buy it' -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:15:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- good sense of humanity -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:10:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Blind Obedience... -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 03:34:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Terror -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:47:36 (EST)
__ swami j. suchabanana -:- cult's unethically facilitated,abusive sessions -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 06:27:23 (EST)
__ Chuck S. -:- You filled in a lot of gaps for me... -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 06:00:52 (EST)
__ Bryn -:- M's outbursts verbatim? -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 05:52:25 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Thanks !!!! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 05:39:20 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- John, I don't agree with... -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 04:39:47 (EST)
__ Nick -:- Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings) -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 03:47:14 (EST)
__ salam -:- Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings) -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 02:28:30 (EST)
__ __ Disculta -:- Feeling gratitude -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 03:21:54 (EST)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- WOW,,,,,,, -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 08:42:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- It's a New Day -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:51:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Wonderful Post, Vicki, thank you (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 14:56:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- And rotten vegetable ARE GOOD! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:59:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: And rotten vegetable ARE GOOD! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 16:58:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Let's have a :)Love In:) -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:52:25 (EST)

C'est magnifique -:- New PR for EV -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:50:08 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Maybe Jean-Marie sent me the anon email! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:28:22 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- They're mowing your grass, Joe -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:22:04 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Re: Maybe Jean-Marie sent me the anon email! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:37:27 (EST)
__ such -:- Bonthous email address -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 04:23:06 (EST)
__ __ such -:- Bonthous: his published Malibu address! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 05:13:43 (EST)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Bonthous:'self-generating beliefs' -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 04:33:45 (EST)
__ __ such -:- Re: Bonthous email address -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 04:25:09 (EST)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Bonthous emails! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 05:11:01 (EST)

Barry -:- Perfect opportunity, but wasted. -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 23:47:30 (EST)
__ Mummiji -:- You cruel ungrateful boy! -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 07:50:26 (EST)
__ suchabanana -:- maybe they figured you didn't know dibbledy -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 03:40:31 (EST)
__ __ ReJoyce -:- Grate, Such -:- Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:42:06 (EST)

Barry -:- No help from them. -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 23:43:18 (EST)
__ Mummiji -:- And, young man ... -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 07:58:17 (EST)

Salam -:- what is the url to the new cyber caca? -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 22:52:25 (EST)
__ At your service -:- But never 'his' ... -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 22:56:51 (EST)
__ __ salam -:- thank you [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:35:34 (EST)

G -:- Now he's picking on Bugs! -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 22:23:26 (EST)
__ My Name is Elmer J Fudd -:- I Own a Mansion and a Yacht.. (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:31:25 (EST)
__ __ G -:- Re: I Own a Mansion and a Yacht.. (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:55:31 (EST)
__ Stonor -:- A Wabbit!!! Don't shoot! -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 22:33:20 (EST)
__ __ G -:- A pressing question on Rawat's mind -:- Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 22:50:03 (EST)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- doing dat parsnip vacation -:- Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:31:23 (EST)


Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:50:11 (EST)
From: John Macgregor
Email: johnmac@turboweb.net.au
To: All
Subject: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings)
Message:
Hello again everyone,

I've been away for some time, but I hear that things have not been dull on
F7. Things have not been dull for me either, with the majority of my premie
friends very hurt and angry about my posts (which has made things rather
sticky in this tight-knit community), and a few, too, who are intending to
join me on the other side of the fence - which is equally intense for other
reasons. (You all remember what that collapse of faith is like.)

I apologise for not being here lately. I've been away for several days,
drifting down the Tweed River on a houseboat, celebrating my 50th birthday.
On top of that my papers have given me lots of work - which has really put
the pressure on.

Quite a few premies - some of them distant, some of them friends here in
Byron Shire - have made contact since I came out, and I'm now discussing
their exiting processes with them. That, too, takes a lot of time!

There's also the fact that, being a little obsessive, I try not to get
involved in the forum for too long at one time: I find it can swallow up my
life somewhat, and need to pace myself.

For all the above reasons, I haven't logged on for well over a week. I will
tend to follow these patterns of popping up briefly - then disappearing for
quite long periods to get other things done.

Post-K is the most pleasant, and interesting, phase of my life so far. I
want to try and draw a line between the necessary de-culting process, and
just getting on with things and (dare I say it?) enjoying life.

A couple of people rang today and told me there has been much support for
me here of late - for which I am extremely grateful. One of the great
difficulties in leaving Knowledge is that no premies wish to discuss it:
one is thus deprived of one's usual support base. I think I said last time
that the ex community is everything the premie community should have been,
but wasn't - including egalitarian and supportive. I have made many new
friends here in a very short time.

As for my old friends: I'm naturally perfectly happy for the non-exiters
amongst them to remain within Maharaji's world: I spent many happy times
there myself, and the last year does not somehow magically turn all that
into 28 years of hell. I'm also happy to concede that Maharaji has good
points: everyone does, and black and white thinking gets us nowhere - other
than into cults, perhaps.

But having now learned the nature of Maharaji's secret life, and having
gained a little insight into the overall psychology of the master-devotee
relationship, all that is somewhat beside the point. For these are
overweaning realities, which tower over good memories and 'nice
experiences'.

To reiterate:

I've now left the world of Knowledge, so am no longer bound by its rules
and loyalties - including the 'confidentiality' which so dominated the
scene in recent years. I assert the right to develop my own opinions on it,
and to make these public if I wish - along with the information I have at
my disposal. I believe this information will help aspirants and premies to
make informed decisions on whether to remain with Maharaji, and will help
interested outsiders to make decisions on whether to become involved.

This is especially important, in my view, in light of the institutional
secrecy which pervades Maharaji's activities, senior staff and
organisation.

As a person who joined DLM when I was young and admittedly fairly stupid,
and who was programmed with some pretty deep stuff as to Maharaji being a
kind of special being or cosmic force, and who gave tens of thousands of
dollars and many years of life to further his work (and who watched him
grow obscenely wealthy in the process), I believe I have earned the right
to say about him whatever I please, so long as it is based on supportable
facts.

My take on things will not be the whole truth - but it is as good, as fair
and as accurate as I can make it.

Probably 90% of those who have received Knowledge in the West have left
Maharaji. This includes PAMs, senior organisers and instructors - and the
figure is growing daily. Of all those who have been premies, only a
skeleton crew remains.

Thus the majority of us - most of those who established Maharaji's work in
the West - are now on the outside. If we do not have a right to pass
comment on him, who does?

This post is principally about Maharaji's trainings, which have been the
central ideological glue in EV in recent years. However first I need to
attend to housekeeping matters, and respond to some miscellaneous points
from the posts I read before I went away a week or so ago:

* I was never a major PAM (in for example the Michael Dettmers sense): I
described myself as a long-term senior organiser and 'an occasional PAM',
which I think is accurate.

* I 'know' that M is behind CAC as a matter of logic only - I don't have a
smoking gun. That is: The only people who could possibly be behind CAC are
loyal premies. All loyal premies do absolutely whatever M asks of them.
Therefore, if M put the word out that CAC should be taken down, it would
happen overnight. Given the damage ex-premie.org is doing to his work, and
given what a hands-on CEO he is, it's reasonable to assume that Maharaji's
involvement is even more pro-active than that.

* I don't resile from my earlier statements about sexually abusive
instructors.

* The one thing I regret from the first 2 posts is mentioning the names of
individuals, in anything but the most innocuous of ways. It could have been
construed that I disapproved of (now retrenched EV Australian National
Contact) Kaye McKinnon's salary - when in fact I didn't: $A50,000 is not a
lot of money. Similarly, I was neither for or against the move to oust
Kaye: two of the 'ousters' are long-time friends, and I know Kaye pretty
well too. I mentioned these events to highlight the politicking which is
built into EV - and of which I partook myself at times. Mark Winter is a
friend, and to protect my identity I was unable to mention that when he was
constructing Enjoying Life, I was enthusiastically helping him. And of
course my remark about Monica Lewis was not meant to reflect poorly on her
(she's always been perfectly nice to me): the joke was at my expense. I'll
avoid naming names from now on, unless it is completely unavoidable, or I
can do so entirely innocently. The way I see it, this is not a war against
people, it's a war against an idea.

* Finally, in case some people think I'm ducking them: even when I spend
time on the forum, I don't read the premie trolls. That way lies madness,
IMO. Their role is to distract from the real issues - and with our
enthusiastic co-operation they achieve this very successfully. Both of the
main trolls are friends, and I can get quite enough of them at parties and
in the main street of Mullumbimby, without needing to engage them here.
There's also the fact that - as with all of us - their real selves are more
rounded and agreeable than the sub-personalities they send out into the
cyber realm.

I'd like to talk briefly about the things I've said about Maharaji in
recent times - for these have been the source of considerable angst to my
friends.

Firstly, I have little doubt as to my contribution to the things that were
bad about EV and M's work in general: I was an organiser since early 1973,
and was doing fairly major service out at Amaroo till only a year ago (when
I spent a week onsite for the donors' conference). I brought two people to
Knowledge, one of whom is still there. As a community co-ordinator I was
occasionally rude and disrespectful (a fact of which the victims have been
humorously reminding me for the ensuing quarter century).

I don't blame everything I did wrong on being in a cult: many of these
things were, purely and simply, personal failures. I didn't leave earlier
because of the loyalty I felt toward Maharaji - or at least the image I had
of him. All the dysfunction in the world would not have been enough for me
to have turned my back on the living master: I had to realise, with great
pain, that he was not the living master first.

Secondly, as far as the accusations against Maharaji are concerned, a
premie friend believes I should concentrate less on Maharaji's lifestyle,
and more on the more serious abuses. (She described sections of my last
post as being 'like Jerry Springer'.)

She's right, up to a point: I don't really believe that M's meat-eating,
cigarette- and pot-smoking, beer-drinking and polygamy are capital crimes -
and have done my share of each in younger days. In enumerating them in the
last post, I was trying to establish that I had done a certain amount of
service around M over the years - not to draw attention to these
behaviours, many of which I don't regard as particularly shocking. All of
them, incidentally, were well-known for years before I posted.

Nevertheless, up until the ex-premie site made these things public, there
had been very conscious efforts to conceal these behaviours - surely that
is what the x-rating was all about - which does tend to introduce an
element of hypocrisy.

Additionally, vegetarianism, non-smoking, non-drinking and celibacy were
rather hypocritically endorsed by Maharaji for ashram premies. Even now M
occasionally works to fracture the relationships of PAMs.

But all of this pales in comparison with M's broader abuses, such as
covering up the rape of children, sexually using female devotees, and
accumulating at least $US50 million from his flock - to say nothing of the
mind control techniques outlined below.

Thirdly, I'd like to re-iterate that, apart from the odd mistake -
inevitable in such a vast mass of highly emotive material, and which I will
correct and apologise for as they are pointed out to me - what I have said
to date is actually, really, genuinely true. Is it being suggested that I
have no right to say things that are true?

Fourthly, I do believe I have a right to publicly criticise Maharaji, as he
has publicly criticised me. In my training in September 1999, Maharaji had
me videoed during one of the exercises, during which I allegedly made a
mistake. He then played the video to 85 people, and explained in
considerable, pointed detail where I had screwed up. He may well have been
right: I have no argument with him correcting me. My point is that - after
28 years of humble submission - such privileges now run two ways.

The Jagdeo matter I wrote about in Pam 1 has taken some strange,
contradictory turns. As I said in Pam 2, I got the date wrong: the meeting
I referred to was in 1985, not 1980. On the other hand one of the meeting's
alleged participants has contacted me saying the meeting did not happen -
or at least that s/he wasn't there if it did.

The original participant, however, is sticking to his/her guns. So I figure
the best I can do is to refer to this story as an 'allegation'. And I
apologise to the second (alleged) participant for not checking the story
out with them in the first place.

According to the original participant, the meeting concerned Jagdeo's
sexual molestation of one, or possibly two, of the complainant's children
in India about 15 years earlier: that is, in about 1970. 17 years have
passed. Both my informants are former x-rated PAMs, and I believe both are
acting in good faith.

Finally, I've been told someone posted here discussing my family. Given my
present workload, I doubt I 'll have time to read and respond. However this
does neatly underline a point I make below - which is that even normally
ethical people will abandon their ethics when the central icon is under
threat. I've little doubt those responsible will one day look back on their
action with dismay.

Anyway, now to the main topic of this post...

Maharaji's Trainings:

Over the last year or so, people have pulled back from service, all over
the West. There are many factors behind this - including ex-premie.org,
people getting older and wiser, and continuing disillusionment with EV's
apparently permanent state of dysfunction. Poorly chosen and unpopular
leaders have played their role.

But interestingly, Maharaji's 'trainings' have also caused many people to
revise their commitment to M. Revise it downward, that is.

'Trainees' haven't generally analysed why this is. They express vague
discomfort with the trainings, but are unable to say what this stems from.
This is hardly surprising. To examine the trainings honestly, and come to
one's own conclusions about them, would lead one to the largest 'Do Not
Enter' sign in the premie catalogue: the one which involves an objective
ethical examination of Maharaji's activities.

Thus the vague, unsettling feelings persist - but (with the exception of
the minority whom the trainings propelled out of Knowledge) nothing goes
further than that.

Yet the fact remains: now the trainings are finished, people have withdrawn
from service en masse. Why?

Firstly, just about all premies have a bad attitude to EV thesedays. Given
that EV is just a bunch of volunteers - people like you and me - this is
curious. It's not exactly a monolith, and it has virtually no paid staff.
Indeed the latest reports suggest that it is fast sinking beneath the
waves.

I believe - and it's only a belief - that EV plays a role in displacing
premies' anger at Maharaji. EV is a 'safe' way of resenting M. It is a safe
place to direct blame for the pain, stunting, inconvenience, cost, fear,
guilt and anger which often lie below the surface of the premie's
much-vaunted satchitanand.

It's interesting to note that the instructors played a similar role in the
1970s and early 1980s: in satsang after satsang, Maharaji himself set them
up as targets for anger and abuse, which of course drew such emotions away
from himself.

But this time around, tho antipathy to EV is nearly universal, it has been
impossible to contain all the anger in this single vessel. For the first
time, considerable anger is being directed at Maharaji himself. Some
premies have gone the whole hog and left K; others quietly mutter but stay
in the fold; and others do not divulge their mutinous thoughts to other
premies, but think them nonetheless, divulging them only to outsiders.

IMO, more than any other factor, the trainings of the last few years are
responsible for this change. For large numbers of premies, the trainings
brought the EV cult psycho-dynamics - basically the techniques of thought
reform which are the basis of Maharaji's influence - into the daylight for
the first time.

The trainings also revealed something like the real Maharaji, to people who
had never previously been exposed to him - and those people have been
troubled ever since.

Maharaji's trainings were EV's central institutional methodology of the
1990s. They were to the 1990s what ashrams and satsang were to the 1970s.
Their importance in deepening and entrenching the Maharaji psychological
'spell' should not be underestimated. Their chief psychological weapon was
the mixed message (which I've discussed below).

Just as ashrams created a top layer of heavy-metal devotees with a 'single
idea' in the 1970s, so did the trainings select and create the same cohort
in the 1990s. In both cases the aim was to bring about a 'core' of 'clear'
devotees - clear as to who was Boss, clear as to organizational methods -
around whom a global mission could be built.

Among its other functions - many of which were highly enjoyable - satsang
in the 1970s was the vehicle wherein these clear devotees could deliver
the message (the 'truth') to the rest of the community, and bring everyone
into line with the general philosophy. Teams - which mixed core premies who
tended to lead with community premies who tended to follow, just as satsang
did - were meant to become this ideological delivery vehicle in the present
era. And the team thing was one of the main messages of the training.

So the trainings not only entrenched the message (Maharaji is always right,
et al), they also created the means for its further dissemination (teams).

Why did the trainings arise? Let's look at the timing.

Significantly, the trainings arose after the Amaroo Mutiny - the first blip
on the radar which alerted M that there was trouble brewing in Paradise:
that people were challenging the authority of his small group of
appointees, and therefore his authority. Amaroo was and is the jewel in M's
crown. A challenge to his authority there was probably very difficult for
him.

There have been several mutinies in Maharaji's world over the last decade -
some of them attracting emergency interventions by M's envoys. There has
been an Indian mutiny, the PR Team mutiny, and various mutinies at local
level throughout the US and Australia. But perhaps the most famous mutiny
was the Amaroo Mutiny (as Maharaji himself named it) of December 97-January
98.

The mutiny at Amaroo - Australia's cult-within-a-cult - brought the place
to a halt, saw its management team implode, scrambled the international
team to red alert - and nearly saw Amaroo sold off by an infuriated Lord of
the Universe. ('This is a mutiny! How dare they!' he said when told about
it.)

Basically, the Amaroo Mutiny was an attempt to democratise Amaroo - to
spread and diffuse the power to make decisions. The Mutiny began when the
management team imploded on December 21, 1997; it was led by several former
management team members.

The Mutiny was put down when Valerio Pascotto was sent to Amaroo (first by
the three-man facilitators' team, then, when M heard about the Mutiny, with
M's blessing). From memory, Valerio arrived in late January, 1998.

After his arrival, Valerio sat the perpetrators down and instituted
workshops which included self-criticism sessions - written and oral. These
lasted several days, and in time broke down all resistance. On Day One, all
participants were sat in a large horseshoe - with Valerio and his
note-taker at one end - and one by one asked to confess what role s/he had
played in causing the trouble. (The question was handed to participants the
night before on paper, so they could spend the night contemplating it.)

One attendee stated out loud that these sessions were 'medieval', and
refused to take part. However everyone else joined in.

For me, the most surreal aspect was that maybe a dozen people who'd had
nothing to do with the mutiny - who hadn't even heard of it in some cases -
took the blame for enough sins to fill a Catholic textbook. The word
'hysteria' barely does the atmosphere of these sessions justice. Some
people were so distraught they could not speak, when their turn came to
confess. Others seemed utterly destroyed at the thought that they had
offended the Master.

Before the sessions even began, Valerio had made it extremely clear that
Maharaji was very angry at us.

The Angry Daddy gambit is one of Maharaji's crudest yet most effective
psychological techniques. The Rawat psychology does not need to be subtle.
Because of our sincerity, we were extremely easy to manipulate: for Valerio
it was like taking candy from a baby. Some of the techniques may have
already been in place, from the 1996 international organisers' conference,
where these workshop-style settings began - specifically:

Childhood parental models were invoked to terrify potential dissenters;
philosophical closed-loops were reinforced, in which the master could never
be wrong; the 'group dynamic' was strengthened to dissolve individualism.

In the end, after some spirited resistance, we all caved.

Valerio told me I should be feeling 'grief' at what I had done to displease
M - and by the end of these sessions I believed he was right. I mention
Valerio's name here because it is simply unavoidable: he was central to the
Mutiny, and central to the trainings. Personally I always got on extremely
well with him, and we parted cordially. What I write here should not be
construed as an attack on him, but on the crazy psychology which possessed
us all. I don't use the word 'possessed' lightly. Like myself, Valerio was
in the grip of a powerful daemon, and under its influence we were as mad
and inhuman as each other. I participated in the sessions as fully as he
did.

Anyway, Maharaji should perhaps be grateful to the Amaroo mutineers: the
Mutiny provided not only the impetus for a global re-education program, but
many of the techniques employed in it.

In early 1999, the first prototype training was held at Amaroo. The model's
bugs were ironed out.

At this training M yelled at participants that they - the Amaroo premies -
were 'insane' and 'lunatics'. He used frequent war analogies, swore
violently, and was extremely angry much of the time. This is what convinced
many attendees that the Mutiny was on his mind.

He was so angry on one occasion that his hands shook, and he dropped his
whiteboard marker. After he'd done one of his 'storming out of the room'
routines (I think he trialled the technique at this first training), a PAM
came into the hall in tears: 'Maharaji's going to leave Amaroo unless we
get it together,' he sobbed. 'Unless we do what he wants.' Significantly,
what he wanted was never made clear.

One brave participant told Maharaji he thought that training's techniques
were reminiscent of the Nazi Party. He has not been singled out for
promotion!

After this trial run in early 1999, the trainings began in earnest in
various major centres.

The trainings were for premiedom's top 'resources' - mostly managers and
those with money. A seldom-appreciated refinement of this is that the
trainings were directed at 'resources' who were, with advancing maturity,
displaying symptoms of independent thought.

So - throughout the trainings - once again childhood models of authority
and obedience were 're-booted' within the greying skulls of Maharaji's
flock. Wealthy businessmen were reduced to obeisant, trembling children who
sometimes went dry-mouthed with fear; normally balanced, competent women
were driven, in several cases, to hysterical breakdowns. (NB: I don't want
to be sexist about it: there was ample hysteria on the male side as well.)

My training cost each of the 80 participants $A1000 to attend. (Tho I think
some full-time staff probably got freebies.)

Each training was different, and there were specialist trainings for (for
example) propagation and the residence/personal area staff. But the
overarching purpose of the trainings was what the Chinese call
're-education' - the Chinese approach and Maharaji's having considerable
common ground. These were the main elements, as I saw them:

- Insufficient loyalty to the master/government is profoundly stigmatized.

- Individuality is stomped on. The Chinese call it 'degenerate
individualism', Maharaji the 'Lone Ranger syndrome'. In both cases
self-criticism plays a central role in eliminating it.

- Mutual monitoring is stepped up and refined.

- Certain more trusted group members are secretly recruited by the trainers
to work against the interests of those who are to be made an example of.

- Blatant untruths are stated and restated, and eventually accepted,
despite evidence which contradicts them staring participants in the face.
(E.g. M's stating how hard he works to 'keep my body fit so I can carry out
this work'.)

- Disabling of logic, and destruction of will and volition, by organized
'mindfuck' games which nobody can win. (In some trainings, not a single
exercise was completed successfully, and not a single game was won. I guess
the subliminal message was: 'You cannot win.')

- Creation of confusion and thus compliance, by recurring mixed messages.
For example: M makes mistakes/M can't be challenged; claim your
territory/obey the master; if the food is no good, don't hesitate to tell
the kitchen/don't criticise others, or be 'political'.

- The inhibition of independent action by the ratcheting up of fear and of
paranoia. (Every participant could become the object of severe criticism,
could be expelled from the group, or could even be responsible for the
cancellation of the entire training, at any time.)

- Revival of the old 1970s fears in 1990s form: exclusion from the perfect
world of Knowledge, from the group's approval, and from the Master's
blessing. ('Cult members are systematically programmed with phobias so they
will be in terrible fear of leaving the cult. They are enslaved by this
mind control technique in thinking that there is no other way for them to
grow.' Ilona Cuddy, mental health degree masters project.)

- Recurrent use of what cult psychologists call 'the cult of confession' to
undermine the credibility of individuals acting outside of the master's
command. (The trainings began with a round of confessions, accompanied by
hysterical crying, a dramatic collapse or two, and claims of absolute,
total unworthiness. Interestingly, confession had not been called for by M
at this stage: premies had merely been asked to say what they expected and
hoped to learn from the training, and what they thought would be the most
difficult aspect of it. Yet out came the confessions of unworthiness and
shame. This undoubtedly says something about the psychological climate
within the wonderful world of Knowledge! In another session, participants
had to confess what their 'buckets' contained. People interpreted this to
mean, 'What are my faults?' The hyper-critical self-descriptions came
tumbling out: anger, fear, haste, hate, judgement, envy - and so on. More
tears, more wailing.)

- Closed circuits of logic were dusted off and re-presented for the group's
approval. (To put it at its crudest: 'We know Maharaji/the Communist Party
is the unchallengeable source of truth, because they most purely represents
that truth. We know they most purely represent that truth because they have
often told us this. We know that they are speaking the truth on this matter
because they are the unchallengeable source of truth.')

- Premies' sense of powerlessness and dependence was entrenched, partly -
and bewilderingly - via a set of complex and demanding training rules which
participants were led to believe that they created, but which were actually
insinuated into the process by the trainers.

- Fear and praise were alternated to implement the above and other
dynamics. (E.g. two trainers would play good cop/bad cop.)

- People's time was 100% occupied with pointless tasks - long, circular
meetings; unwinnable games - to obviate thinking and analysis, especially
about the high levels of mind control in evidence.

- In some trainings, long hours were employed to break down resistance to
thought reform. In others, participants were blindfolded for long periods,
to sow confusion and emphasise powerlessness.

- Acceptance of the amorality and immorality of M's world were further
entrenched. E.g. in one training, M said: 'If the team decides it's dark
outside, and you look out and see that it's light, IT IS DARK OUTSIDE!'

- Diminishing of individual discernment - and of individuality - by giving
exaggerated value to the 'team'. One whole exercise was directed to getting
individuals to 'merge with the team'. If that was the individual's goal,
what was the team's? It was, of course, to realise Maharaji's desires. Thus
the team dynamic was a kind of front for implanting Maharaji's control.

- Entrenching of top-down hierarchical structure, and unquestioning
obedience. E.g. M said, 'If a manager tells you to dig a hole immediately
above a buried electrical cable, the only thing you are to say is, 'How
deep?!'

- Demands for devotion were escalated. (E.g. one premie was quizzed on why
he spent his days in his high-profile job and ONLY his evenings, when he
was tired, doing service for M.)

- A system of rewards and punishments was instituted in ways that
undermined trust among members, but increased emotional dependence on
Maharaji. And in which no-one ever wins. (There is a broader, analogous
pattern of competition between PAMs for M's approval - a pattern M has
profitably maintained for 30 years - in which no-one ever 'wins'. No-one
ever gets to be Arjuna - he makes sure of it. The trainings utilize the
same 'rewards and punishments' model - though it's an intensified version
of it. In essence, the trainings aimed to take cult psychological
manipulation to the highest level that people will tolerate, and not begin
to smell rats.)

The trainings more than fulfilled cult author Steve Hassan's 'four criteria
for cult mind control':

(1) They had strict rules of behaviour. (Indeed one whole session was on
'What are you going to do to follow the rules?' M stated 'the whole purpose
of the training is to follow the rules'.)

(2) They employed thought control. (Thoughts expressing individuality or
challenging M were violently criticised; others such as 'Are we being
manipulated?' or 'Is M wrong?' were off the agenda altogether.)

(3) They employed emotional control. (Provoking M's anger - which happened
almost daily - threw participants back into childhood emotional states;
guilt and shame were employed repeatedly; and the group was frequently
divided against individuals or sub-groups.)

(4) Finally, the trainings restricted the flow of information to members.
(E.g. participants were led to believe that they themselves invented the
training rules, whereas in fact they were predetermined by M, and
insinuated into proceedings via an apparently 'democratic' process. Also
many of the group votes, and some of M's temper outbursts, were
pre-scripted. Those secretly approached to catalyse events such as the
expulsion of the scapegoat were told not to tell others about this.)

The trainings were run by psychologists, and other professionals.

The 'team' dynamic which dominated the trainings was not about democracy,
as the word 'team' might suggest, but was actually a mechanism for
reinforcing Maharaji's authority. I would not characterize this as another
deception, though, because it was made pretty clear from the beginning that
M alone stood outside the team - not only its membership but its ethics -
and the take-home, whole-of-life, bottom-line message that was driven home
on the last day - the rule of all rules - was simply 'Maharaji'.

It was a powerful bit of final programming that left no-one in any doubt as
to the focus of the training, and the expected future orientation of its
participants.

As I said above, the chief psychological weapon of the trainings was the
mixed message - of which Maharaji is a master:

If you don't like Knowledge, walk!
If you stop practising this Knowledge, you 'll go rotten inside.

I make mistakes.
How dare you criticise me!

Claim your territory.
Follow the master.

Trust yourself.
Trust the master.

Speak your mind when you see problems.
Don't criticise, and don't be political.

Are the tapes running? I am not God!
I have come to the world with full powers.

Everything is within you.
Everything is within Guru Maharaji.

The mixed message is (IMO) a double-barrelled shotgun which has blown away
even some of the cleverest of minds, because it is installed at a level
where intellect does not operate. Whether this is at the level of the God
archetype, the sub-conscious, or whatever, depends on your psychological
viewpoint.

The mixed message is a powerful thing. Typically, one half of it empowers
and expands, the other half intimidates and reduces; one half provokes
love, the other half fear; one half liberates, the other half enslaves.

People are powerfully hooked by both elements of the mixed message:
everyone wants to feel free, but we also want to obey a legitimate
authority. (Especially if we believe that authority to be God, or God's
representative.)

Above all, the mixed message strategically confuses.

We are 'freed' by Knowledge, but we find ourselves subjugated to the person
who gives us Knowledge.

At the surface level, a very reasonable explanation is put forward: that
person to whom you are now subjugated is the ocean of compassion, and is
thus the one person you can trust in this life. Unlike other people -
employers, friends, family: all of whom let us down eventually - he has our
best interests at heart, and will never let us down.

It would be pathological to be subjugated to any other person. But to be
subjugated to this person is acceptable, because he is the one person who
will not abuse this status.

Trusting souls that we are, most of us took many years to dig below this
logic. Because it brought us great comfort, we bought the surface
explanation. This allowed the freedom/slavery contradiction to disappear
below consciousness, where it long troubled us in strange and unpredictable
ways. Some of these 'ways' include the sapping of will or ambition, an
inability to promote or even explain Maharaji to outsiders, ethical lapses
we would not normally be prey to, clinging to 'safe' channels of thought,
and an almost wilful failure to follow 'risky' trains of thought through to
their logical conclusions.

The standard premie defence against criticism - I've heard it a lot lately
- is 'I'm just having a nice experience inside - what's cultish about that?
That's what this whole thing's all about.'

I usually point out that this whole thing is only partly about that: the
second half is about embracing Maharaji as your master. It's about
following his guidelines, obeying him implicitly, and it's about never
criticising him. That is, it's about putting him above the requirements we
apply to all other human beings.

Thus the first half of the M/K equation is about feeling good, freedom,
personal liberation, and so on. The second half, however, is about
obedience, never criticising, and following somebody else's agenda. The
entire Maharaji/Knowledge paradigm is founded on a mixed message.

Thus the premie's world is founded upon a dichotomy - a dichotomy which
(usefully enough) helps to disable both thought and volition.

Has Maharaji worked all this out? I doubt it. Masters like him - and there
are many - intuitively know how to place their cards: when to raise the
eyebrow, or voice, or standards, or stakes, to make people do their
bidding, or part with funds. When things don't work, he simply adjusts to
something that does. I doubt if he's thought through the mechanics of it
any more than I had till recently.

The trainings being an intensified form of the M/K paradigm, the mixed
message was naturally intensified within them. One need look no further
than some of the training rules - 10 seconds, conscious, respect,
confidentiality, honesty, unanimous - to see this:

* No-one was allowed to talk for more than 10 seconds without permission -
though this didn't apply to Maharaji.

* Participants had to be 'conscious'. Yet all participants remained
profoundly unconscious of the manipulation to which they were being
subjected - and even of how the training was constructed.

* Participants had to be extremely respectful of each other. Yet this rule
did not apply to Maharaji, who frequently unleashed obscenities at those
who angered him, or at the whole room.

* Confidentiality was emphasised over and over, as a way of creating a
'safe' environment for participants. Yet the trainings were emotionally
unsafe in the extreme - as evidenced by the fear and hysteria frequently
expressed. The likely real role of instilling confidentiality - to keep
information about M from outsiders - was never divulged. (I guess it was
confidential.)

* Honesty was urged on participants. Yet neither M nor the trainers were
honest with participants as to the real purpose and modus operandi of the
trainings.

* Decisions had to be unanimous. Unless Maharaji disagreed with them.

The ostensible purpose of the trainings was to instil teamwork - to convert
EV from a hierarchical model to a team model. And there seemed to be a
genuine attempt to do this at times. Yet the take-home message was
extremely hierarchical: Maharaji is the Boss. Anyone who showed signs of
disagreement with that was publicly shredded.

There were sincere if muddled attempts to practise the teamwork model in
the year after the trainings. However the wheels duly fell off: no-one
could ever quite make it work. This was for the same reason that the wheels
have fallen off every premie enterprise - including the original one, of
lasting happiness: mixed messages don't take root.

It's within me, but I kiss Maharaji's feet. I'm free, but I'm a servant. I
contain the source of all wisdom - yet he is the real source of all wisdom.
On the conscious level, we were pretty good at rationalising such
contradictions. But on the levels which are important, where people
secretly and quietly grow, the psyche can't make any sense of such
messages. Plants won't mature if you pour on nitrogen and herbicide at the
same time.

My notes from the training make scary reading, now that (two years later)
I've deconstructed the experience. I noted down various people's
statements, motions and amendments throughout the week - for example:

* I propose that we all apologise to Maharaji. (This was a popular one,
given that the thing was set up so no-one could do a thing right.)

* I take personal responsibility for failing the rules and the team. I wish
to re-commit to the rules and the team.

* I accept responsibility for the team's failure. I apologise. I will
follow the rules.

* I propose we renew our commitment to the team and the rules.

You get the picture.

Some premie readers will find the comparison with Chinese-style
're-education' offensive. However I suspect that those who actually
attended trainings will be slower to take offence. I don't know one of
these people who doesn't have lingering doubts.

To really identify these doubts - to drag them out into the daylight -
would necessitate entering the mental no-go area wherein Maharaji's
behaviour is evaluated like anybody else's. It's a place to which many are
not yet prepared to go.

Who knows? This may have been one purpose of another of the training's
rules: no dark thoughts.

Maybe a description of the darker side of the trainings will bring some
better definition to this process. (You thought you'd already read the dark
stuff, right?)

The Scapegoat:

The ritual humiliation, victimisation and frequently the expulsion of the
designated 'black sheep' in some (but not all) trainings has left even some
of the staunchest premies with dark thoughts.

This scapegoat would be picked on the basis a minuscule personal sin, which
was then magnified out of proportion by M. S/he would be verbally
humiliated by Maharaji at some length.

Most premies are basically nice people. Thus the group - often around 80
people - would not want to hurt the scapegoat by supporting M's abuse, but
would not want to offend M either. So everyone would listen to the voluble
obscenities in silence - many weeping.

Everybody realized that there but for a throw of the dice were they: the
scapegoat was picked because s/he was a personality who would absorb
humiliation, not because of anything s/he had done wrong.

Eventually Maharaji's anger at the scapegoat would prevail in the room.
After much equivocation and many attempts at compromise, finally someone
would stand up and move the motion that everybody had been dreading: the
motion to expel the scapegoat from the training, and cast him or her into
the outer darkness, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The motion would be duly carried by a shamefaced but intimidated group. The
scapegoat would be sent out of the room permanently - everybody avoiding
his gaze as he left.

After the expulsion from Paradise, the scapegoat was to be seen sitting
alone and unloved around the campfires, silent and morose, like a recently
disembodied spirit unsure of whether he was alive or dead. I tried to talk
to the scapegoat from my group one night: he was unable to talk.

To make it worse, this 'spontaneous' collective scenario was a set-up:

Typically around Day 3, a suitable candidate would be taken aside during at
dinner, and told that something 'really serious' was going to happen next
day - that someone was going to 'take a fall' in order 'to bring the
loyalty issue to a head'. And that s/he would be a suitable person to get
up at that juncture and organise an apology to Maharaji, and move the
scapegoat's expulsion. (Naturally the word 'scapegoat' wasn't used.)

Sure enough, at one stage during the next day's session, a member of the
group would make the mistake M had been waiting for - and all hell would
break loose.

After a protracted period in which the group failed to expel the member -
which they were clearly required to do - the pre-chosen person would stand
up and say: 'I move that ________ be expelled from the training.'

And so he was.

(Incidentally, the person so expelled in my training was subsequently flown
to the Delhi training free of charge, on Maharaji's instructions: M is a
tyrant/M is compassionate!)

I suspect that pre-chosen people were also employed for other crucial
tasks, such as the Ritual Humiliation of the Dissenter, and the Begging for
Forgiveness Ritual.

During one training, an attendee begged to differ with M on a particular
point. Maharaji screamed that it didn't 'matter so much as a fart what you
think!' After some more generalised screaming, he stormed out of the room.

When the wailing and gnashing of teeth stopped (that's not poetic licence
this time), a (pre-selected?) person would step forward, and propose that a
group apology be devised. There would then be endless argument and
discussion and voting re the wording: this could literally go on for two
hours because of the requirement for unanimity on every word. Finally a
card would be drawn up, and signed by all.

The card would bear such wording as 'We are truly, deeply sorry', 'We
apologise from the bottom of our hearts' and 'We wholeheartedly beg your
forgiveness'. (The word 'pathetic' barely begins to describe these
rituals.)

The card would then be sent to Maharaji, who would - after an appropriately
suspenseful interim - reappear at the training, and gravely compliment the
group on 'finally learning something'.

Anyway, what was the upshot of all this nonsense?

1. As a result of the trainings, there was a rush of 'trainees' to the
doorsteps of physical and even psychological therapists. Several attendees
quit Knowledge altogether.

2. Since the trainings tuned everyone up for 'greater and more focused
participation', nearly the entire global community has 'stepped back' from
doing service.

3. Back at Amaroo, because of the trainings' overwhelming emphasis on
'confidentiality', team meetings became covert operations.

4. Other than for the all-pervasive secrecy, and whilst teams do exist, the
actual teamwork mechanisms instilled by the trainings are now widely viewed
as unworkable.

Ultimately, the trainings were not at all about learning things like
'respect' and 'consciousness', as the training rules suggested. If they
were, Maharaji himself would have been frogmarched out the door in the
first hour. Nor were they about learning the techniques and approaches
inherent in the exercises: most of these are now passe in the corporate
world from which they derive.

The trainings were about re-learning and reinforcing deep psychological
attitudes of gratitude and subservience to an omnipotent father figure,
whom many of us encountered in our impressionable teens or early twenties.
Basically, they were a mid-life re-boot.

For the founders of ex-premie.org (who deserve all the praise that comes
their way) here is what a long-term insider, and a participant of two
trainings, says:

'I have no doubt that the fanatical insistence on confidentiality which the
trainings instilled - absolutely everything thereafter was 'on a
need-to-know basis' - was to stem the flow of information to ex-premie.org.
So all of that mindfuck was about Maharaji getting scared of the
information being gained by the ex-premie website.'

So, that's all on the trainings.

Whilst I'm fairly confident that everything of a factual nature in these
posts can be supported, I doubt there is any final 'truth' in the
psychological realm. I put all that out there for what it's worth. For me,
the real 'truth' lies in just being able to think it and say it.

Posts like this one are often initially seen by premies as 'the product of
a bitter, twisted mind', a 'wild distortion of Maharaji's work', 'vengeful,
malicious fiction', etc, etc. Hate, rage and personal attacks (shooting the
messenger) are very much to be expected. (I gather we've seen some of it
here lately.)

In my experience, all this generally continues until one has had the chance
to sit down and discuss the subject one-to-one. On these occasions - when
real communication can happen - the hostility gradually melts away,
concessions are made, and in some cases the exiting process begins.

So I only regard this stuff as 'information' - useful to back up
statements, and so on - but somewhat less useful than personal contact when
it comes to changing premies' ideas, which are deeper-entrenched than any
of us could have imagined.

The post I'd really like to write - if I knew how - is what caused us to
have the experiences we had? I had some extraordinary experiences in
meditation - which I'm fairly satisfied can be attributed to some rather
complex brain chemistry.

But I also had some extraordinary experiences around Maharaji - and equally
extraordinary ones around Bal Bhagwan Ji. Others have entered sublime
states of consciousness around Mata Ji, Rasputin and Adolf Hitler. What
causes this stuff?

I've got a few superficial answers - e.g. projection - but they don't
really satisfy me. Maharaji's cognac intake is all very interesting, but to
me this is the real nub of the matter. After three decades - all thoughts
are welcome.

Best wishes to all,

John

PS: These posts seem to be circulating through the premie community
somewhat. Those premies who wish to discover more about their master and
his activities might have a look at www.ex-premie.org

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:40:16 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: My take on your question
Message:
You felt something, had an altered state of consciousness, because you were told that was what you were supposed to be experiencing. You were told this over and over in Satsang, by people who were around M, by his wife, and others you admired and I might add from a very young age. You also provided quite a fertile ground for such perspectives thru your meditation and in your thinking and belief system.

I well remember a program in Washington, DC shortly after the ashrams closed, shortly after there was no more satsang. It was one of those question and answer programs in the mid eighties. Remember those? Anyway, this sister asked M why he wouldn't give darshan anymore since it meant so much to her and she always had such a 'profound' experience. He told her that she felt what she felt because 'the initiators told you that was what you were supposed to feel.' In other words it was a ruse and guess what, M actually told the truth in that answer.

Listen, think carefully to other events of your life. K is not the direct path to profound experience and there is absolutely nothing special about M except in his ability to con. I can relate a few of my own for you and maybe this will help settle what must be a disturbing question for you. I can only imagine some of what you must be thinking and feeling.
I remember the first time I held my new born son in my arms and looked into his infant eyes. That experience was far beyond anything I ever felt thru, or around or because of M.
The time I held my patients hand as he drew his last breath.
The first time my husband told me he loved me.
An experience while sitting on the seashore hearing the waves, feeling and smelling the salt air.
The time I came home so tired and discouraged from my day and being greeted by my 7 old daughter who ran up to me, gave me a hug and a wet sloppy kiss and said that 'I love you mommy! You're the best PERSON in the world.' Now how just did she know exactly what I needed at that particular point in time? Cosmic, huh?
I could go on but I think you get the idea. I'm not asking you to discredit any of your experiences but I would like you to reflect and identify equally profound, cosmic events and experiences that did not have anything to do with K or M. My bet is that you will remember some and might be surprised by the flood that comes back to your memory.

Take care of yourself. I hope you are not being too hard on yourself.

Wonderful post by-the-way.

Kind regards, Tonettte

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 13:20:41 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: darshan
Message:
'the initiators told you that was what you were supposed to feel.' - M

Around the same time he said something like 'Darshan worked because you thought it would work.' That was according to the person next to me, I had asked what he said because I had blotted out it out, I couldn't accept it.

Notice that he didn't accept any responsibility, and lo and behold, he is 'giving darshan' again.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:56:33 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: thank you. Extrememly interesting.
Message:
I learned a lot from reading that. I hope, as one of the people who has worked hard to bring the Jagdeo issue to light I look forward to your Jagdeo installment and any info you can provide. How very shocking tht someone involved now doesn't remember ( sarcasm indended) . How can some people live with themsleves?
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:02:32 (EST)
From: Jane Slater
Email: singer@onlink.net
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings)
Message:
This is one powerful post-and I believe every word. What puzzles me is that DLM is an affshootof Radhasoami at Beas, India, and that I was dragged to this RS cult by an ex-premie. What could she find in RS that eluded her at DLM. Was it a different kind of deceit or looking for a new boyfriend(all subliminal of course)
[ Page Link ]
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:02:24 (EST)
From: Jane Slater
Email: singer@onlink.net
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings)
Message:
This is one powerful post-and I believe every word. What puzzles me is that DLM is an affshootof Radhasoami at Beas, India, and that I was dragged to this RS cult by an ex-premie. What could she find in RS that eluded her at DLM. Was it a different kind of deceit or looking for a new boyfriend(all subliminal of course)
[ Page Link ]
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 11:30:48 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: I am officially at war. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 08:42:16 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Plucking, sucking and mind-fucking.
Message:
Hi John,

I opened the windows to the world this morning, and your post blew in on the fresh sea breeze. What a treat. Thanks a lot John. I said it before, but this is powerful writing. It literally changes people’s lives for the good.

I cracked up laughing a couple of times, and I’m definitely going to start a thread entitled, “I propose we all apologise to Maharaji.” I’m laughing again right now.

It was interesting you made the connection with communist China and the techniques used in the “training sessions”. (Have you read that brilliant biography of Mao, by his doctor?)

If there’s one thing communism should teach people, it’s don’t ever confess any real “sins” at these sessions. That’s a big mistake- akin to spilling your heart out when you’re drunk. You don’t know who’s listening and what they’re going to do with the information. Having you put it in writing yourself adds insult to injury.

The emphasis on obedience reminds me very much of the “chain of agya” bollocks we suffered in the 70s, (Jai Dev, Jai Satguru Dev). It boils down to the same thing.

The cult really is falling apart, and from your descriptions, Captain Rawat doesn’t seem to be doing too well either. Like Adolph, he’s retreating to his bunker with a few faithful servants, true believers, mistress, pet dog, Peter Frampton CDs, applemac, maps and plans. While outside the kingdom is in ruins and reality is knocking at the gate.

Where did it all go wrong for him? To think, the lion could be shagging the lamb by now, and all the “bullet guns” could be melted down into arti-trays. Maybe it’s out fault John, if only we’d surrendered more, tried harder…maybe there’s still time…I digress.

You question near the end about those experiences we had. Here’s my immediate take.

Ecstasy, bliss, and moments of deep, inner happiness and joy, are common experiences. They are part of being human. We live together so closely, in such organised, stifling conditions, compared to most other creatures, that we need to pop out into bliss every now and again to stay sane. We do this in all sorts of ways. Singing and playing music are an obvious example. Getting up and performing in front of our fellows can do this. So can sex, religion, boy-bands (if you’re a 12 year old girl, not talking about my personal taste), drink, drugs, playing sport, listening to music, going for a walk somewhere nice, dancing, painting, praying, ranting, fishing, mountain climbing, swimming, or flying a kite.

We are humans, any excuse will do. It’s one of the things that, along with stupidity the ability to open beer bottles with spoons, and play saxophone, distinguishes us from our fellow mammals.

Keep them coming John.

Anth ranting, fishing, singing, plucking, sucking and doing the dishes.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 23:44:33 (EST)
From: Julian
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: This comes to mind
Message:
What a sad little cult.
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:18:05 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Julian
Subject: Getting littler and sadder all the time
Message:
When you factor in that roughly 80% of the western people who received K walked out of the knowledge session and off into the sunset to begin with.

The figure could even be higher, then look at the activity this site F7 and EPO generate as opposed to the dwindling hits on the premie related and quickly evaporating web sites premies are pulling down.

These numbers alone indicate that more people are interested in getting out than getting in.

Brian the barometer

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:38:10 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings)
Message:
Thanks John.

Now I've got more of a clue as to why those who turned a blind eye to the fact that the Satguru is a total bastard,did so.

That's something that's bugged me since I found EPO last year & stopped being a premie as a result. I couldn't understand why people who knew what he was really like didn't walk(or talk). To me he was the polished performer on stage at occasional events.(85-99)

I'd simply forgotten about the youthful incarnation, how heavy it all often was,how I hated the whole trip but couldn't quite ditch it,how at Essen in 75? in particular, I knew that it was the same as Nazism,but successfully fought off Mr.Mind.

To think that for the elect, that continues to the present, freaks me out.

I feel very sorry for the people who are still getting fucked over by this little shit,& if any of them would like to post on here,I for one have got over any desire to attack fence sitters.

Looking forward to your next post: Pat Dorrity

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:58:39 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: and did we fight that mind, PatD
Message:
You said: ''....how at Essen in 75? in particular, I knew that it was the same as Nazism, but successfully fought off Mr. Mind.''

In 73-74 in UK he seemed like Big Brother to me but I told my mind to fuck off.

In Essen 75 it smacked of Nazism, obviously, given the surroundings.

I fought my mind for so long that I still do it out of habit. That's one of the nastiest leagacies of Maharajism - trying to manipulate my mind instead of just letting it be.

But in the ten months I've stopped doing it deliberately it has eased up and I'm starting to relax. And then Rawat wonders why we're mad at him and don't just take a walk and shut up.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:15:41 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings)
Message:
Hi John,

Is there any way you could get some of this published or is that something you'd rather not discuss publically at the moment?

Marianne wrote an excellent post about the parallels of Jones's People's Temple and the last days of the cult. Actually, Marianne has been saying this all along but sometimes it takes a parallel story to make the connection.

I am very disturbed by the depth of Maha's wicked behaviour. And to think, that any criticism is punished so severely, is why I scream out my obscenities at him.

Someone has to tell the bastard off. And not politely. The criticism here is too soft in lieu of the facts you witnessed. Michael Dettmers and Michael Donner have offered glimpses into the BigHead's temperment but you cleaned up with this post.

I have never, and will never, apologize for my insults towards that man. Never. To think that I was one of those followers turns my blood to cottage cheese. The only difference for me, was I never saw that behaviour. So, in a way, my brainwashing is not as knotted up but I am insulted and pissed that I was deceived. I didn't have to witness it to make it bad. Having other people witness the mind-fuck trainings and personal brutality is enough. I bought the window dressing and that's enough of an insult for me.

And I'm angry for the people who killed themselves, who left families, friends, careers and retarded their personal growth, to work as slave labour and continuously follow and praise him. These are all very justifiable reasons to be outraged. It's like a "We're in this, together" thing.

Thank you for taking the time to tell your story. You have my unlimited respect and support. You've done a good thing, John.

I'm really very very proud of you. I just want you to know that.

fondly,

Deborah

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:34:58 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: Moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: John Macgregor
Subject: ***THIS WHOLE THREAD IS AMAZING***
Message:
xxx
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:14:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: 'Training' as in for dogs
Message:
I, too, want to thank you again, John. What a difference an experienced (I almost said 'trained'!) investigative (?) journalist makes. You're an evolution-sent gift to the truth here, John. It's one thing to experience what you have but it's a whole thing altogether to be able to understand it, and then to be able to articulate and convey that understanding, as you can. Thanks again.

So now I feel so sorry for these poor trainees and friends. How could anyone not. One question I have is about the ringers who rose to move for the ostracism of the 'fall guy'. It wasn't entirely clear to me if both the accuser and the accused were ringers or not. Could you please clarify that?

Also, I just have to wonder, do you know Abi's dad? As you must know, M professed complete prior ignorance to him regarding Jagdeo last year at Amaroo. Crocodile tears and everything. Your knowledge puts the lie to that. Have you ever spoken to him?

Thanks again.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:40:47 (EST)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings)
Message:
John's description of the trainings is so revealing, helping me to put so much into perspective. In particular, I remember about 12 or 15 months ago listening in on a national phone link (UK), in which the UK national contact reported back on an international co-ordinators' conference, at which m had obviously played the 'Angry Daddy gambit'.

She explained how m had walked out of the room and how the assembled co-ordinators had come together to find a solution to appease his anger (just as John describes at the trainings).

Their solution was to propose a world-wide 'Clean up' campaign - 'clean up' was apparently m's own terminology. The upshot was that those premies in positions of some kind of responsibility were expected to undergo a critical self-appraisal, particularly in relation to their motivation and ability to perform their assigned service. This was to be written and submitted to their service co-ordinator, who would then judge their suitability for their continued involvement. I had withdrawn from active service at this time, but my wife was an integral member of the UK pr team.

As we listened to this phone link, we both knew that something was seriously wrong, although we did not express anything openly at the time. However, when it was time to do the self criticism, we challenged the process. Firstly, it occurred to us that there was a major process of displacement taking place - m had expressed his anger/displeasure at the audience to whom he was talking, not the world of premies in general. Somehow the national co-ordinators engaged in the classic ploy of pointing the finger elsewhere. It left me with a really bad taste - through my various services over the years, one thing I was clear about is that ther are hundreds and hundreds of unsung premies, living in the communities, devoid of any recognition or expression of gratitude from the recipient of their fantastic efforts and sacrifices, and these were now being used as convenient scapegoats. However, at the time my anger was firmly directed at EV - John's post lays the blame where it really belongs, which is at the feet of the catalyst of this fear i.e maharaji. This is a major realisation for me, although I guess every other poster on here realised this long before.

The upshot of the 'Clean up' campaign was that premie after premie was writing his/herself criticism on First Class i.e on a very public forum at the suggestion of the national service co-ordinator. This mirrors John's observation that one of the techniques of the training was to make the participants feel that they had established the rules, whereas in fact they had already been insinuated by the trainers themselves . The 'clean up' appraisals mainly took the same tone - 'I am so unworthy, such a poor devotee, but so grateful to be given the opportunity despite all my failings....'.

It was gruesome and totally flawed as a process. So my wife took the decision to declare her unease at the process publicly on First Class and also mentioned that the term 'clean up' really did belong to the worlds of Mao and Stalin. She was put under severe and prolonged pressure to recant and submit, but she refused to engage in the process and write a self appraisal. She was summarily sacked from her service and subsequent messages to the national co-ordinator from her were simply left unanswered. She suddenly became persona non grata. Just to finish this off in a style Mao would have been proud of, a message was posted on First Class announcing that she had decided to resign from her service.

Since our withdrawal from the premie world, it is fascinating to see what has happened. I sent a number of letters to the premies in our community, explaining that, due to what I consider as fundamental flaws in m, I could no longer consider him to be my teacher. In 8 months, not one of them has made any contact with me. It is such an interesting reaction from people with whom I used to spend most of my non-working life. 3 or 4 weeks ago I went to a Dr. John concert in town (now, that was fun) and it was really fascinating because I found that my assigned seat was right next to 10-12 of this same group of premies, whom I would previously have called good friends. Their sense of unease at being in my presence, as a renegade freaked-out premie and contributor to the Forum, was so palpable. They simply did not know how to react and I was repeatedly asked in quiet, pitying tones (that is, taken to one side)whether I was ok - subtext: now that you have abandoned the Lord's kingdom. Yet I couldn't be angry or cynical about this, for this is the reaction that m has engendered.

The more I read and analyse the pressures and processes we were subjected to, the more I understand that something very sinister is going on. I am so grateful that I am out of it.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 05:36:57 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Are you OK Nigel?
Message:
That description of you being asked continually if you're OK- like you're expected to be not OK- is similar to an attitude I've been sensing, when old premies enquire about myself. The expect, nay want, us to be freaked out, because in cult world, that's the way it's supposed to be.

I've been luckier with my premie pals Nigel, some of them are still good friends, and coming from an Ulster type household, I have no problem keeping religion out of the conversation.

anth, back later, I'm in the middle of a nervous breakdown.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 11:25:38 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: AJW
Subject: Well I'm dribbling a bit...
Message:
...but Moley's fixing my meds and so will be able to undo the straight-jacket in a minute (it's a bugger to type this...)

Er, Anth, I think you should check who who you're actually replying to here...

Nige the easily confused.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 12:29:01 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Dur, blubber, blib, blab.
Message:
You're just trying to fuck my head up right Nic? Like, you change into Nigel, and then back to, hang on man, can you see all those little soldier marching up the wall, singing the song of the blue bottles. Ugh. Aaak ak. It's true. I've lost it. They're right (sob) I'm going back to the lotus teeth.

Alvaro Pascotti

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:14:22 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: A whole new ballgame
Message:
What a vivid description of the ostracism process that permeates the premie cult members. Shunning is another cult control mechanism utilized by the best of the cults to maintain members allegiance. Fear of loss of the group support and individual relationships within the cult is a powerful control tool.

The fact that this avoidance thing happens amongst premies,(which is much the same with me since I announced my exit), clearly indicates that actions speak louder than words. Premies say that they are not in a cult, but their actions belie thier acceptance of cult mannerism's as they sujectively bannish former cult members.

The facts are these premies do what good cult members do when one of the converts breaks away, they avoid and shun the offender.

A typical chance encounter with a practicing premie will lead to a confrontation at worst, or a condescending pityful placation to appease the demons that possess you at the very least.

It is pathetic really, premies acting the same way as other cults do given the same circumstances; in this case shunning a former member for exiting, yet not able to make the distinction that they too are acting out typical cult behavior.

The cult that isn't a cult, or at least pretending like it isn't a cult. Worse yet, knowing what they are and not admitting it I think.

There is nothing quite so supraliminal or beyond my comprehension to me personally as seeing middle aged supposedly older and wiser folks acting so childish.

Taking their ball and going home, I won't talk to you or see you anymore, grade school logic, just juvenile pettiness, Fucking unbelievable.

It's a shame that is so unlikely that after 30 years I cannot have an honest conversation with many of my oldest friends. So busy shunning and running and all, the cult is fragmented, the writing is on the wall.

The fucking thing is imploding , and alternately exploding these days and what will be left are the few remaining wacko fanatic's that I will gladly avoid and shun myself.

Brian the vanquished exile

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:45:13 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Nick, thanks for your input
Message:
Hi Nick,

This is what I need to hear. I can't imagine what it must be like to witness that shit and STILL stay.

BTW, you married a brave and intelligent woman, good for you. Best of luck to both of you.

deborah

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:32:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Wow, Nick!
Message:
Nick,

Given the emotional cauldron she'd been in for so long, your wife's action was nothing short of heroic. This is all amazing. As many have said, it hits harder than any of the damning disclosure about M's own frailties. This is M on the attack and who's he attacking? Once again, the only people who ever gave him the time of day.

God, what I would give for a chance to publically confront him! I have an almost visceral daydream of being a, til-then good premie standing up at a program and putting it right on him. Fortunately, I did have a chance to do just that with Raja Ji back in the late eighties. But, as I realized when he came to my office the next day and we retired to the Red Robin for a drink and a chat, he's completely beside the point. It's M that matters. Let me at him. (In a lawful, honest, verbal confrontation, of course, you poor, poor EV monitor!).

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 11:06:27 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A concession, Jim?
Message:
God, what I would give for a chance to publically confront him! ... Let me at him. (In a lawful, honest, verbal confrontation, of course, you poor, poor EV monitor!).

What would I give for a chance to sell tickets to THAT event!

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:28:11 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Nick
Subject: Dear Nick - brilliant
Message:
So glad you posted that!!! I so related to a lot of what you have said!
Do email me....
xx Moley
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 16:56:57 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Euphoria and the darshan rush...
Message:
Crucial reading, John - for premies especially. Big thanks - and as you can see, very much appreciated by many here including folks like me who were never more than provincial community premies with very distant back seats in the world of DLM/EV. Frightening how nasty those trainings really were/are. Just like I imagined but so much worse. You can just taste the fear.

Anyway, John, you signed-off with a question and invite for responses. Some of us have been chewing the fat here over similar 'psycho-spiritual' issues for a while now. I would like to repost something (with minor edits) I wrote a couple of months back as it seems relevant to your question, which was:

But I also had some extraordinary experiences around Maharaji - and equally extraordinary ones around Bal Bhagwan Ji. Others have entered sublime states of consciousness around Mata Ji, Rasputin and Adolf Hitler. What causes this stuff?

I've got a few superficial answers - e.g. projection - but they don't really satisfy me. Maharaji's cognac intake is all very interesting, but to me this is the real nub of the matter. After three decades - all thoughts are welcome.

My thoughts:

Euphoria and the ‘darshan rush’

‘Euphoria’ is a great word. My dictionary defines it as meaning ‘well-being’, but its popular use implies more than that, I think. Most people would call to mind an overwhelming state of well-being or pleasant sensation, be it only temporarily overwhelming. Euphoria is a bit like ‘joy’ or ‘bliss’, but can be equally applied to adjusted physiological states as to psychological or emotional ones (though I do not believe any one of these can manifest in the absence of the other two).

Junkies and winos experience euphoria, as do coffee drinkers, nicotine addicts, lovers and kids on Christmas morning. I remember during a phase of heavy computer addiction (years before email or forum addiction had been invented), the sensations I felt after a period of abstinence when I sat down at a TV monitor and switched on the trusty Commodore 64. Before loading the tape drive, there were already these all-consuming sensations of pleasure, absorption, satisfaction... euphoria, basically. (Discovering the joys of computer programming was another factor in my exiting the cult - one I forgot to mention in my ‘Journeys’ post, but very important.at the time.)

I heard on the radio today about the way kids with cancer, after chemotherapy, require far fewer pain-killers if you give them computer-games to absorb themselves in. Absorption is itself a route to stress-relief and physiological well-being. It is the main factor involved in the enjoyment if hypnosis and meditative processes.

Or as a healthy, Jesus-conditioned teenager, I was press-ganged along to some disturbingly manipulative Billy Graham movies. When the great lecturn-thumper finished his sermonising and the guilt-ridden born-agains edged their way up front to invite the Son of Man into their ventricles, tear-stained and shiny eyed as any dew-plucked premie, post-darshan - or Heaven’s Gater ready to embark (…as radiant as sozzled scousers when the Reds seize another football trophy, or whatever...), well, that’s what I mean by euphoria…

And you can watch it spreading. In large-group situations, euphoria is contagious - at Nurnberg rallies, dangerously so. Make no mistake, those Nazi gatherings were joyful experiences. NB: I am not talking about so-called ‘mass hysteria’ with its connotations of collective frenzied, whipped-up emotions. Nothing like; Euphoria is mellow and beautiful; the euphoria of fascists no less euphoric. (Anyone remember the film Cabaret and that moment in the park and singing ‘Tomorrow Belongs to Me’ before it starts to get a bit creepy…? Yikes – I love that song…)

Euphoria is a commonplace human capacity and response, as much so as sadness, anger or pain. It comes built-in and only needs triggering. Find a vacant pitch in the euphoria-service-providers’ market and your future is assured. This is as true for motivational consultants and Inner-Pathers as for whisky-bootleggers and drug-runners. But at least with the latter examples you understand, more-or-less, what you are buying.

So where is all this going? Well, there are two basic points I wanted to make..

Lower down you can read this exchange between Jim and ‘Mr Williams’.

Jim wrote:

…I ran upstairs to tell my Lord that and then it happened. He looked at me, quite nonchalantly, and two things occurred simultaneously: my heart broke in profound awakened joy. Here was my own creator looking at me, none but me, for a fleeting moment. It was amazing. The other thing that happened was you, Mr. Mind, told me in no uncertain terms, louder and clearer than you ever had before in all the nights I'd sat in satsang, all my many prayer-filled meditations, that this was all bullshit. You were so damned clear then, Mr. Mind. I'm sorry I couldn't listen to you...[my emphasis]

And Mr Williams’ reply…?

So you eventually chose, and owned, 'this is all bullshit' over profound joy. Whatever. I chose differently.
Can you just take that in without a snarling response?

I am not sure what Mr Williams means by ‘just take that in’. He imparts no new or surprising information about his cult beliefs. We have been there and worn our ‘Profound Joy’ t-shirts until they faded and frayed. He should ask instead just who has been taken in here…? Has he, perhaps, ignored the thrust of Jim’s post and overreacted to the word ‘bullshit’(?) Always painful to hear if applied to your adored Master - or other significant loved one - but appropriate in the context.

After all, this was only Jim’s Mr Mind talking, and probably talking the same language as Mr Williams’ Mr Mind. By the same token, Jim’s Mr Heart ‘talks’ the same ‘language’ as Mr Williams’ Mr Heart, in that he is susceptible to the same scope of emotional responses. Fortunately exes have rejected cult dogma and tend to understand emotions for what they are.

The non-drug-induced routes to euphoria are, for me, the more interesting - and euphoria describes well enough Jim’s darshan moment - in its way, a real enough happy moment. Certainly as real as my Commodore communion highs or any other euphoric episode. Choose your own…

Inducing euphoria may be easy but conceptualising it is a nest of snakes. I have more than a lay interest in this area, since I am studying hypnosis at doctoral level. (Am I one of the few forum addicts who finds much of the subject mater here useful and relevant to their work?) But I will mention again something Freud said about the experience of being ‘hypnotised’ (not that I believe in either Freud’s bullshit theories or even hypnosis in the sense of it involving any special ‘trance state’). But Freud described the experience of the hypnotised subject as being similar to that of ‘being in love’. I think he was right as his description reflects pretty well the subjective reports of many hypnotic subjects. But ‘hypnosis’ is just a label, as is ‘love’, or indeed, ‘Knowledge’. Call it what you like, but when it happens, feel-good feels good. It all depends on what presses your buttons...

So am I saying all euphoria is one and the same thing? Absolutely..!

Neuropsychologists have nailed down the crucial biochemical processes and identified the neurotransmitters common to such states. Alas, there are no common Lords of the Universe as yet identified in the literature...

That, finally - whew! - was my first point.

My second, more important point I wanted to make is this: rather than whether K is OK, or good feels good, the premie’s problem lies in finding both interpretation and causal attribution for their euphoric episodes. Explanations, too, for why these experiences come and go, as they do. (Saying ‘premies keep forgetting to go inside so they need the Master to remind them is both M’s alibi, not to mention raison d’etre, but NOT an explanation.)

Typical attributional problem: our premie community used to run a wholefood stall at the weekends in an indoor market. We took turns with a rota of unpaid shifts, the profits going (natch) to community funds or Marge’s ‘special projects’. As is happened, the market manager where our stall was based bore an uncanny resemblance to a certain Lord of the Universe of our parish. Although English, a bit spotty and much taller, he looked for all the world like the then long-haired Marjory, who was admittedly, also a bit spotty. But every time this market manager entered the building and you caught sight of that ‘golden glowing face’ (c. Rich Neale, 1979 BC) you would get this sudden ‘darshan rush’ of elation and recognition, followed by immediate disappointment, not to mention a little confusion.

It was not even as if you consciously believed for a moment this WAS Maharaji. Rather it was just your nervous system making its classically-conditioned response. The same response, in fact, as that time I caught sight of Maharaji’s Mercedes with the man and family in it, as it drove down the lane which skirted the Holi site in Rome. (My only real-life glimpse of M.)

So were both of these encounters real darshan experiences? Or were neither…? (The answer is obvious to me but I think we should be told anyway...)

Associative learning – in the Pavlovian sense - has nothing to do with beliefs and desires and everything to do with conditioned physiological triggers. Since being knocked off my bike recently I have acquired an unwanted and irrational fear of traffic. There’s not much I can do about it apart from keep on dodging the cars until it wears off. This has nothing to do with my understanding of the probabilities of being hit, but one of my body’s most primitive mechanisms for looking after itself. I had a cat once, which after once being run over, would never go near a road again. Not a conscious decision it made, but a learned fear at biochemical level.

And when your body associates euphoria or any kind of well-being with god-in-a-bod’s presence on this planet – so much so are similarly unable to reject those gut feelings or ‘heart’ experiences, you have big problems, premie ji...

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:27:04 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: wonderful Nige [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:34:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Excellent as always, Nige
Message:
For a resident psychologist or whatever the hell you are, we couldn't have done any better.

Thanks to you too.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:48:54 (EST)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: make that 'anti-psychologist'...
Message:
No, 'whatever the hell you are' is better. Ta Jim - we all have a humble part to play in this grand cult-debunking adventure, I guess. God - ain't it hotting up now, after those first couple of frustrating EPO years when it seemed nothing significant would ever happen. (Can you believe the Trojan Horse thing was three years ago tomorrow?)

And now, suddenly, it's a major haemorrhage. For me EV's reply to Joe lower down shows exactly how sickly is the cult beast in these troubled times.

PS: Have you checked your emails?

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:53:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: Yes, the momentum's unmistakable, isn't it?
Message:
No, 'whatever the hell you are' is better. Ta Jim - we all have a humble part to play in this grand cult-debunking adventure, I guess. God - ain't it hotting up now, after those first couple of frustrating EPO years when it seemed nothing significant would ever happen. (Can you believe the Trojan Horse thing was three years ago tomorrow?)

And now, suddenly, it's a major haemorrhage. For me EV's reply to Joe lower down shows exactly how sickly is the cult beast in these troubled times.

PS: Have you checked your emails?


---

Nige,

You're right about that and yes, Ev's reply to Joe speaks volumes. And was it really three years ago since we pulled that prank? Thankfully, as a lawyer, I get to bill Maharaji for every last hour. But you, Nige? That's a lot of selfless service, bud. If you ever need a letter of reference, well, I'm sure there's someone around here who'd be more than willing.

Yes, email alert!

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 16:23:15 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Psychological Terrorist & Abuser
Message:
What an astounding post. The EV/M scenario as you've described it is deeply disturbing. It is so much worse than I would have imagined.

I thank God from the bottom of my heart that due to the HF split in the 70's I landed on the BBJ side of the fence, and was spared the experiences and events in M's world that, as recounted here, read as a prolonged and escalating horror story of such psychological manipulations, abuses and terrorism all slathered over with a gummy coating of denial, avoidance and self-loathing, sufficient to be, essentially, a crime against humanity. Or at least a crime against human dignity, emancipation, and empowerment.

Your comparision to Communist Chinese Cultural Revolution-style reprogramming is not out of line at all. So sorry you had to endure that abuse.

My heart goes out to all who have suffered in these ways while their initially innocent searches for the meaning of life, for wisdom, peace and love were cannibalized and channelled into the greedy grasp of a demented egotistical guru.

Be well, all of us, in all ways. We must heal ourselves of the sickness of thinking we are fundamentally bad, insignificant, powerless and unwelcome in this awesome world. Although we are visitors here only, we can either magnify beauty and wisdom or stifle them. What have we done? What has M done? What can we do now? Where do we go from here?

Carl

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 15:47:27 (EST)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Astounding
Message:
I don't even know what to say. Thanks.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 15:17:02 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Two and two is five.
Message:
See1984

I see several parallels.

This is shocking, even after everything else.

The humiliation aspect I can personally relate to. Years ago, 'Maharaji' publicly humiliated me in front of thousands of premies. He had learned about something I had done and blasted me (being the master blaster that he is) at a program. He didn't mention me by name, but I know he was talking about me and I was sitting near someone who knew me. It was so embarrassing. At the time I thought he was all-knowing (even though I really know he wasn't) and that's how he knew, but it's clear that premies had told him about me. What I had done wasn't something bad and it WASN'T ANY OF HIS BUSINESS!

Another incident: At the Kissimmee program he passed by me in a non-luxury car and I didn't recognise him until after he passed by (Oh the sin!). He made a point of blasting me, talking about a premie who had a 'concept' that the person couldn't have been him because he wasn't in a luxury car. What I thought when he was in the car was that he was the only premie having fun, but I suspect now that that smile was a sadistic grin.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 15:16:32 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Great Information and Insight
Message:
into the inner workings of the cult, again I want to thank you and acknowledge you for your courage in bringing forth these facts John.

For those of us who want to make an informed opinion on the cult and M your posts are proving to be a valuable resource to do so.

I can only imagine dissemination of this inside information on F7 is quite possibly the manifestation of M's greatest paranoia.

Is that the sound of falling shoes I hear?

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 14:44:02 (EST)
From: HEY
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Catweasel, are you around?
Message:
Read, and tell us that supporting GORD is the right thing...

TRIPLE LOL

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 18:50:11 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: HEY
Subject: My oh me
Message:
Remember. John's impressions. John's viewpoint's.
I'm not even going to bother. I think I'll just gather up my gossamer wings and get right on up there with John and the other fairies.
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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 00:04:51 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: not impressionism
Message:
impression: 1. An effect, feeling, or image retained as a consequence of experience. 2.A vague notion, remembrance, or belief.

I see nothing vague about what John wrote. He provided specific quotes of Maoraji. He described in no uncertain terms what happened.

viewpoint: 1. A position from which something is observed or considered; a point of view. 2. a mental position from which things are viewed

Yes, he was there, he observed, now he has reported what he observed. So what? It isn't his opinion that Maoraji said these words, he heard him say them, he saw those things happen. I don't any way that his mental position distorted his reporting.

I notice you're not saying that these sick games didn't happen, you're not saying the Maoraji didn't say these disgusting things. Hmmmmm. Are you claiming that something John said is false? If so, what? and what evidence do you have? Were you there or at a similar 'training' with Maoraji?

If Maoraji told you to do something that could easily result in your death (like digging a hole right over live electrical wires), would you do it? If he told you it's dark out when it's light, is it dark or light out? If he told you that 2 and 2 is 5, then what is 2 and 2?

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:56:23 (EST)
From: Hey
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: yoru 'daddy's' company
Message:
John's description of the trainings is so revealing, helping me to put so much into perspective. In particular, I remember about 12 or 15 months ago listening in on a national phone link (UK), in which the UK national contact reported back on an international co-ordinators' conference, at which m had obviously played the 'Angry Daddy gambit'.

She explained how m had walked out of the room and how the assembled co-ordinators had come together to find a solution to appease his anger (just as John describes at the trainings).

Their solution was to propose a world-wide 'Clean up' campaign - 'clean up' was apparently m's own terminology. The upshot was that those premies in positions of some kind of responsibility were expected to undergo a critical self-appraisal, particularly in relation to their motivation and ability to perform their assigned service. This was to be written and submitted to their service co-ordinator, who would then judge their suitability for their continued involvement. I had withdrawn from active service at this time, but my wife was an integral member of the UK pr team.

As we listened to this phone link, we both knew that something was seriously wrong, although we did not express anything openly at the time. However, when it was time to do the self criticism, we challenged the process. Firstly, it occurred to us that there was a major process of displacement taking place - m had expressed his anger/displeasure at the audience to whom he was talking, not the world of premies in general. Somehow the national co-ordinators engaged in the classic ploy of pointing the finger elsewhere. It left me with a really bad taste - through my various services over the years, one thing I was clear about is that ther are hundreds and hundreds of unsung premies, living in the communities, devoid of any recognition or expression of gratitude from the recipient of their fantastic efforts and sacrifices, and these were now being used as convenient scapegoats. However, at the time my anger was firmly directed at EV - John's post lays the blame where it really belongs, which is at the feet of the catalyst of this fear i.e maharaji. This is a major realisation for me, although I guess every other poster on here realised this long before.

The upshot of the 'Clean up' campaign was that premie after premie was writing his/herself criticism on First Class i.e on a very public forum at the suggestion of the national service co-ordinator. This mirrors John's observation that one of the techniques of the training was to make the participants feel that they had established the rules, whereas in fact they had already been insinuated by the trainers themselves . The 'clean up' appraisals mainly took the same tone - 'I am so unworthy, such a poor devotee, but so grateful to be given the opportunity despite all my failings....'.

It was gruesome and totally flawed as a process. So my wife took the decision to declare her unease at the process publicly on First Class and also mentioned that the term 'clean up' really did belong to the worlds of Mao and Stalin. She was put under severe and prolonged pressure to recant and submit, but she refused to engage in the process and write a self appraisal. She was summarily sacked from her service and subsequent messages to the national co-ordinator from her were simply left unanswered. She suddenly became persona non grata. Just to finish this off in a style Mao would have been proud of, a message was posted on First Class announcing that she had decided to resign from her service.

Since our withdrawal from the premie world, it is fascinating to see what has happened. I sent a number of letters to the premies in our community, explaining that, due to what I consider as fundamental flaws in m, I could no longer consider him to be my teacher. In 8 months, not one of them has made any contact with me. It is such an interesting reaction from people with whom I used to spend most of my non-working life. 3 or 4 weeks ago I went to a Dr. John concert in town (now, that was fun) and it was really fascinating because I found that my assigned seat was right next to 10-12 of this same group of premies, whom I would previously have called good friends. Their sense of unease at being in my presence, as a renegade freaked-out premie and contributor to the Forum, was so palpable. They simply did not know how to react and I was repeatedly asked in quiet, pitying tones (that is, taken to one side)whether I was ok - subtext: now that you have abandoned the Lord's kingdom. Yet I couldn't be angry or cynical about this, for this is the reaction that m has engendered.

The more I read and analyse the pressures and processes we were subjected to, the more I understand that something very sinister is going on. I am so grateful that I am out of it.

No, all fits...take off the blinders.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:03:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hey
Subject: FA- THERE'S A FLAMER A'FLAMING
Message:
This guy's just screwing around.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:37:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Poor, poor Catweasel
Message:
Anything short of a substantive reply, Cat, says it all. I honestly feel sorry for you. Yes, angry and disgusted as well but sorry's right in there. Some day, Cat, you're going to learn to stand up for yourself again. Good luck, huh?
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 02:29:37 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Poor, poor Catweasel
Message:
You forget Fairy Floss brain. There were others there too.John's vision is entirely subjective.
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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 00:17:46 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: weaselly words
Message:
'There were others there too.'
So?
'John's vision is entirely subjective.'
Subjective in what way?
subjective: 1. Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world. 2. Particular to a given person; personal. 3. Existing only in the mind; illusory.
Are you claiming that what John said happened didn't happen? If so, why?
If I see a red apple on a table and I say 'There's a red apple on the table.' Guess what, that's not subjective. The same applies to what John wrote.
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 17:51:01 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Fairy Floss Brain
Message:
You forget Fairy Floss brain. There were others there too.John's vision is entirely subjective.


---

If that is true of John McGregor, it is also true of everyone, including you.

So why do you bother to read here? Why do you bother with anything?

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:08:43 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Fairy Floss Brain
Message:
Hi John,

In premie-speak, subjective = 'mind' unless one is expressing a positive opinion about 'm & k'.

CW exhibits perfectly normal premie behaviour.
He's at perfect peace because he gave his mind away and he never has to really take any more resposibilty for himself.

Jethro

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:55:58 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: John T, I dont read YOUR posts.
Message:
You are not included. You have never personally experienced any of this.You are just a nasty little twerp. Not even a gnat...
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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 09:52:32 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Muggle fool!
Message:
That's OK possums. I just use you as a silly deluded foil. I show up your silly delusions and poisoned mind. I don't need you to read what I say to show that!

You do understand, don't you, you silly Muggles person, that I use your presence here to show there is nothing at all special or different about people like you, people with a special little friend in their head who think they have a secret Knowledge denied to, well, people like me.

Your hatred leaves me unmoved, just because you are deluded. Just because you are deluded, you cannot deal with me. So you hate me, instead. People reading here can see that.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 14:05:19 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Muggle fool!
Message:
Actually, John, you don't even have to read his bilious words or answer them. Any premie reading the way he talks to you will immediately see that the man is mentally ill.

I'm sorry you are a lightning-rod for his bile but you are doing a great service in showing up the anger and hatred at the bottom of the cult mentality.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 20:47:45 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Don't you just that logic ;)
Message:
I got and read your email and will try and respond tomorrow.
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 13:17:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: EVERYONE'S vision is 'subjective'!
Message:
Even Maharaji's. We're all human, you know.

Cat, I've heard from at least one other person who had a completely different viewpoint about the training sessions, although (and I emphasize this) they did NOT attend the training that John was writing about - they attended another one, not in Oz. So I concede that accounts - along with training sessions - might vary. However, saying John's account as 'subjective' really doesn't mean anything - your account of the same training (IF you were there) would also be entirely subjective.

If you indeed have been through a training session, I'd like to hear your take on it.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:42:56 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: EVERYONE'S vision is 'subjective'!
Message:
'What if' there was some-one here (meaning here!) who sat through the same sessions John sat through. Would that start to make sense. Would it be fair to then couch John's postion as subjective? And personal? As opposed to a nuetral review?
The situation at Amaroo required direction. The then staff were simply not up to it. In the main they were a bit like John. They considered themselves irreplaceable. Yet the reality was that many of the guys had lost touch with the rest of us and the business world.They were 'bushies'. When not at Amaroo they resided down at Space City central (Byron) and sucked in vaste quantities of the local aires.
You want to build a house-you get builders. You want to run a hotel you find people with hospitality experience.
Training sessions? I've been through plenty.In business, in the Corporate sector and with participating. Let's say some are really good and some are really..... What the hell
You really aren't listening though are you. To me it is now just M, my experience of K and having a clean hut with the freshest nad most succulent berries ready.The rest of it for now is irrelevant.
Keep your ear to the ground Katie , there is a Sea-change on it's way...
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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:04:02 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Sheesh, I just asked!
Message:
And I do listen, but sometimes it's very hard to tell what you are saying, Cat. You either speak cryptically on purpose - or that's how you talk.

Anyway, I don't have a clue about the 'Amaroo Mutiny' - and don't really care that much about the interpersonal dynamics between the people who worked at Amaroo - or between you and John.

What I was asking you about was the training sessions - and I gather you either haven't attended one or don't want to talk about the one(s) you have attended? And, as I said, I've talked to someone else who went through one, albeit not at Amaroo, and their experience was different from John's. (Although they didn't give me a 'neutral review' either - sheesh!)

Re the 'sea-change' - well, I guess we'll see what happens.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 04:50:08 (EST)
From: Cult Chronicler
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Mahatma Weasel Ji proclaims that....
Message:
''...there is a sea-change in the air.''
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 22:27:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Poor, PATHETIC Cat
Message:
'What if' there was some-one here (meaning here!) who sat through the same sessions John sat through. Would that start to make sense. Would it be fair to then couch John's postion as subjective? And personal? As opposed to a nuetral review?
The situation at Amaroo required direction. The then staff were simply not up to it. In the main they were a bit like John. They considered themselves irreplaceable. Yet the reality was that many of the guys had lost touch with the rest of us and the business world.They were 'bushies'. When not at Amaroo they resided down at Space City central (Byron) and sucked in vaste quantities of the local aires.
You want to build a house-you get builders. You want to run a hotel you find people with hospitality experience.
Training sessions? I've been through plenty.In business, in the Corporate sector and with participating. Let's say some are really good and some are really..... What the hell
You really aren't listening though are you. To me it is now just M, my experience of K and having a clean hut with the freshest nad most succulent berries ready.The rest of it for now is irrelevant.
Keep your ear to the ground Katie , there is a Sea-change on it's way...


---

You're so funny, Cat. And transparent. M's abuse of people was SO DAMN BAD that you have to affect a cartoonish callousness yourself just to be able to reach down far enough to even try to support it. Thus you put on this crazy James Cagney-esque air, a big tough guy dismissal of the people involved:

The situation at Amaroo required direction. The then staff were simply not up to it. In the main they were a bit like John. They considered themselves irreplaceable. Yet the reality was that many of the guys had lost touch with the rest of us and the business world.They were 'bushies'. When not at Amaroo they resided down at Space City central (Byron) and sucked in vaste quantities of the local aires. You want to build a house-you get builders. You want to run a hotel you find people with hospitality experience.
Training sessions? I've been through plenty.

I can see the cigarette dangling out of the corner of your mouth. 'Training sessions? I've been through plenty.' -- what an absolute joke. Why? Because we're talking about training sessions as in 'Potty Training for Adults Reduced to Infants by their Abusive Cult Leader', that's why! Tought guy, my ass, Cat. You're more like ... what was that movie where all the gangsters were really little kids? Yeah, that's it: BUGSY MALONE!

But even then, Cat, you can't stoop low enough. You can't get right down there and justify a single thing M did blow-by-blow. Why? You know why. Because he's abhorrently abusive and one thousand per cent indefensible. You're just clinging on because you don't know how to stop. Poor, poor, Cat. Retreating to your little crazy-ass image of some old hindu fairy tale devotee who's shut out the world and knows nothing but her guru. She knows nothing about her guru's real life. No EPO-style cult breakdown for him or her. All good, I guess, if she likes living a lie and her guru's anywhere near as notorious as M. The rest of it is irrelevant? Yeah, Cat, now you remind me of another movie, again I've forgotten the title, the one where Charlotte Rampling gets all fucked up again by her former SS Camp Comandant, Dirk Bogarde, and retreats in total breakdown from the outside world ... The Night Porter, that's it. Ever seen it, Cat? You should.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 02:43:44 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Piss off
Message:
Just remember one movie Jim

15 minutes
And I'm Eastern Bloc

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 23:33:22 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ve-r-r-ry funny post Jim
Message:
You make a good 'hard-boiled' cult apologist sleuth.
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:15:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: That's interesting. What'd THEY say?
Message:
Even Maharaji's. We're all human, you know.

Cat, I've heard from at least one other person who had a completely different viewpoint about the training sessions, although (and I emphasize this) they did NOT attend the training that John was writing about - they attended another one, not in Oz. So I concede that accounts - along with training sessions - might vary. However, saying John's account as 'subjective' really doesn't mean anything - your account of the same training (IF you were there) would also be entirely subjective.

If you indeed have been through a training session, I'd like to hear your take on it.


---

What did this other person say exactly? And were they responding specifically to John's account or just talking about their own, separate training? Was there ever a whole milk-and-cookies version of these sessions? This is interesting.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:27:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: Poor, poor Catweasel
Message:
You forget Fairy Floss brain. There were others there too.John's vision is entirely subjective.


---

Any idea how pathetic that sounds, Cat? It's as if some gang broke into a house, bound and gagged everyone, beat up the guy, raped the woman and stole everything. A witness at the scene describes it all. Another witness, too cowardly to tell the truth, says 'There were others there too. X's vision is entirely subjective.'

Yes, as I say, poor, poor Cat.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 19:52:48 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bullshit Jim
Message:
What if there were a coupla hundred in the room and they all saw one guy just lose his self esteem and control. No, no dont turn it around I'm speaking of your example. John is outta step here. But I can tell you that no-one who attended the sessions will factually diss him here so dont expect it. But he has lost the plot.....
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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:02:20 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: FACTS, eh, Cat?
Message:
I can tell you that no-one who attended the sessions will factually diss him

If he is right, of course not. You talk of facts eh, Cat! But you were saying it was all subjective just now. Remind me Possums, who was it you were saying had lost the plot?

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 02:42:26 (EST)
From: Moll of Mole
Email: mollofmole@loveable.com
To: CW
Subject: Re: Poor, poor Catweasel
Message:
You forget Fairy Floss brain. There were others there too.John's vision is entirely subjective.


---

Don't see anyone disagreeing with John. You weren't there were you CW, in fact I dont think you have been to a training have you?

MoM

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 02:34:10 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Moll of Mole
Subject: Catweasel laughing.
Message:
You are one hoot . Here's one for YOU to chew on. If I had been to one would I discuss it here?
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:43:51 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Moll of Mole
Subject: Re: Poor, poor Catweasel
Message:
You would be surprised
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 17:56:25 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Not by you possums
Message:
You would be surprised


---

Not by you possums. You'd first need to replace your Fairy Floss Brain with something that works.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:20:06 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: HEY
Subject: Premies are 'vermin', perhaps...?
Message:
Well, that was CW's tack on M's shooting rabbits for pleasure. I would be interested in his rationalisation for M's disgusting manipulation of his loyal devotees.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:52:05 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings)
Message:
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Your courageous information and insights will free others, I am certain, from that insane cult. And thank God (or maybe myself or whoever it was) for the fact that I got out of it when I did. But for the grace of (whomever), I would have been one of those abused training attendees. Imagine. PAYING MONEY for the privilege of being fucked over! Does it get any worse than that?

One time in 1980, after I saw Maharaji be particularly cruel and abusive to ashram premies who were just trying to serve him, I got so frightened, I just re-doubled my efforts, limited my doubts even more, and entered a kind of dissociated depression, for fear the either: 1) It would happen to me and I wondered if I would survive it, or 2) I would run away from the abuse and go to hell.

With those two no-win alternatives, I actually had frequent suicidal thoughts, but appeared to be a blissful and happy premie on the outside, which also took a lot of effort. To be in that situation is hell, and that sounds like what M has in store for anyone who tries to grow as an individual human being. Reading your post, it brought some of that feeling back, just for a moment.

Shortly after I left the cult, I had some fantasies of taking Maharaji on, or at least telling him off. My fantasy was that I confronted him and told him he had no right to treat me or anyone else that way, and how DARE he put himself above other people. Words like "sick" and "twisted" followed, and it was very therapeutic. In my fantasy, Maharaji was shocked because he so rarely was EVER talked to by someone who refused to see him as superior.

I got a knot in my stomach just reading what you wrote, because it brought back those awful feelings of the times in the cult I gave up my individuality and power to Maharaji. It also seems that these "trainings" are extensions of the old Initiator Training Programs in the 70s and 80s that seemed to have the same goal -- to make the attendees fear ever deviating from the axiom that Maharaji is THE BOSS. Some people were emotionally destroyed after going through those things.

I'm sure the people in those trainings are great people, and I feel so sorry that they had to be psychologically tortured in that way. I have always felt that the value of these communications are to help people sort all this out and free themselves to lead happy, productive lives.

Thanks also for what you said about EPO. I'm sure none of us had any idea that what started out as just a way for former followers of Maharaji to catch up and re-connect, would end up being so powerful. I think that's what freedom and information does. It empowers people.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:41:26 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Psychological Torture By Maharaji!
Message:
Hello John,

Thank you so much for writing about those training sessons. I am grateful for your courage, John, and I am happy you are feeling good now. What a horrible thing to be put through by someone who is supposed to be loving! And to pay for it! That bastard! That monster!!!

The training sessions you described IMO, are raw psychological torture of the Jim Jones type. Inducing shame, terror, gut level grief on so deep a level--confusion, double-binds and mixed messages all support what I've suspected about these trainings as you described, yet I had no viable way to know until you described them. I was hoping that my hunches were wrong, actually, not because I care about Maharaji, but because of you, and all of those people who were so blantantly tortured. Make no mistake about it, that is torture of the worst kind, performed by someone who purports to be a highly evolved spiritual master, and an expert on ''enjoying this life.''

This goes beyond hypocrisy. This is a cult of deception, greed, and hatred by Maharaji toward his devotees and followers. Maharaji, with planning and assistance from ''professional psychologists,'' with forethought and awareness, conducted sessions that I would consider a rein of terror.

Jim Jones performed ''catharsis'' sessions--these were in addition to other brainwashing techniques used on his followers. The way you describe Maharaji's manipulation and temper, as well as his obscene language, shouting, bringing people to hysteria, leaving the room (very scary for a devotee) could be taken right out of the book I just finished about Jones and the People Temple entitled Raven.

The confessions, admission of guilt, shaming, ostracization of members, on and on, is chillingly similar. This is one reason I've been a bit afraid at this time about the Amaroo site and reports that Maharaji is now in a ''reclusive mode.'' You have confirmed my worst fears about Maharaji. I had a suspicion he was involving himself in these types of torture and brainwashing sessions, but now you have provided first, person, eyewitness proof.

I am shaking my head and crying. Good for you for telling, John.

Be well,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:11:10 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: with professional assistance
Message:
This goes beyond hypocrisy. This is a cult of deception, greed, and hatred by Maharaji toward his devotees and followers. Maharaji, with planning and assistance from ''professional psychologists,'' with forethought and awareness, conducted sessions that I would consider a reign of terror.

This aspect fills me with disgust and contempt. Are these professionals, people like Valerio Pascotto for example, are they themselves cult victims? Or are they just filth?

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:40:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Isn't this a logical extension of the late 70's?
Message:
This shaming and ritualized public self-effacement is so reminiscent of the late 70's, I think. Remember those endless 'satsang' sessions, modelled after the Initiator Training (there's that word again) Programs? Nothing but hangdog self-doubt was acceptable. Read Brian McDermott's Poconos satsang. I'm amazed there weren't more suicides.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:28:41 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No Jim, it's not reminiscent
Message:
sorry bud,

But that was not the cult I was in. I would have never tolerated that self-effacement. I frequently corrected people who even smacked of self deprecation Jim. It ran counter to the literal meaning of Satsang. I was a seeker of truth and that's all I would listen to and speak about.

Was that more of a phenomenon in the ashrams? The premies I knew never spoke and thought liked that, either. Call me lucky,I guess, as if anyone in a cult can consider themselves lucky.

I'll give you a call this weekend. Take care, meanwhile.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:36:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Sorry, Deb, I'll kick your ass on this one
Message:
Deb,

After your public humiliation of me above I'm our for blod. :)

No, seriously, this was before your time so I guess you just don't know. It was bad. It was really bad. I'm not exaggerating.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 23:26:16 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Deserved
Message:
Jim, I re-read your post. You did say that it was reminescent of the 70's and what I know about the 70's came only from the videos where everyone was blissed-out (read:thrice removed from reality)

I sipped into the cult during that window of time when the premies who could handle the changes were changing their attitudes. These were obviously the premies (some in the ashram as well) that introduced me to the cult. I thought there was something wrong with the premies that were self-debasing and giving themselves a hard time. Maha continuously made fun of them in programs. NOW, that I've read many posts on the forum and gotten the whole story, I know better. Plain and simple, Maha fucked with them. I'm sure the changes in the '90's alerted people's critical thinking buttons. Hence, the big exodus.

But who would think, that he could get away with that mental tormenting in the '90's. How did he get away with turning the clock backwards? I understand but I don't.

See you tonight,

deb

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 14:58:56 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Please, may I go throw up now??
Message:
John,

I want to point out to anyone who may think otherwise, that your post is filled with humanity, humility and not one word of hate or spite.

Your description of the 'Training Sessions', while reported straightforwardly, began to resemble a bizarre EST-type training. EST was infamous for participants not being allowed to take a bathroom break, etc. - all under the guise of making you a better person. A friend who ran a restaurant freqented by post-training EST trainees, began referring to them as EST-holes because of their zombie-like zealotry and supposed newly evolved 'healthy' egos. The methodology you describe also brings to mind US basic military boot camp whereby the trainee has their will broken down so they could be retrained as a war machine to serve the nation. A third similarity can be found in Lord of the Flies vis a vis having the entire group ostracize the 'scapegoat'. This is utterly inhuman behaviour.

To think at one time I would have jumped at a chance to attend such a gathering. The need for Daddy Approval does run deep and is obviously an integral part of how the entire M&K situation grew. 'Oh blissful, he smiled at me' can become, over time, 'Oh good, I'm not the scapegoat.'

Thanks for sharing that very troubling vision of M's world.

Richard

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:11:45 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: My Browser crashes rdg John's post. Others OK!? nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:10:19 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: criminal hacker alert/warning!
Message:
Gregg:

When I tried to access John's post [when it first appeared on the forum], my computer crashed. Then, after re-booting, I tried again. my computer crashed 3 times. I then used some of my new security software and found an unidentified encrypted .exe file on my computer, and removed it.

Then, I waited a bit, and tried accessing the post again. It finally appeared. I decided to download/save the file and read it offline.

As I began to download the post, a curious lil unidentified icon button appeared on my screen in the upper right quadrant, and my computer sent me a warning about 'fatal disk error' because of another unidentified email operation going on while I was saving. Then, my computer crashed again.

Well, by now I was determined to read/save the post. I used some other security software -- and found another unidentified encrypted file on my computer, then deleted it. My computer OS advised me to restart and reinstall my browser/email software, as something had been damaged.

Anyway, after trying several methods I was able to save/read the post.

Then, while I was slowly posting my response to John [with lowered security], a similar unidentified button appeared again, and my computer crashed again. I then found an encrypted worm file on my computer - and deleted it. So, I wrote my response post offline, and just sent it quickly from a linked computer w/ firewalls.

I was going to alert Gerry, but thought I'd wait to see if anything like this had happened to anyone else.

My observations:

-- I posted and saved earlier yesterday and today repeatedly w/ NO problems whatsoever.
-- I have never seen that weird icon/button before.
-- Criminal Premie hackers have been sending some posters viruses.
-- Why would this only happen when trying to read/save/respond to John's very damning post about m. and his fascist brainwashing training sessions?
-- What/who was making this telecom problem[sabotage] happen?
-- If fanatic cult premies would conspire to be assassins for miragey [i.e. Fakiranand + Fletcher + WPC + DLM officials], criminally cover up m's vehicular manslaughter, criminally smuggle cash etc. for m., criminally divert funds, then it would be nothing to them to wage Criminal cyber warfare on so-called enemy apostates, among other things.

btw, If anyone else notices a similar or related problem again, please post about it - log the exact time it occurred, what transpired. I will contact my friend who was on the Pentium III design team [he is also a genius cyber-security expert, formerly with the military working on satellite telecom security systems], and get his opinion.

[In the past 3 weeks, I have already traced 2 viruses to premie ISP email addresses. Whatever computer they use can eventually be traced.]

WARNING: CRIMINAL PREMIE HACKERS -- WE WILL CATCH YOU. AND YOU WILL GO TO PRISON, YOU BRAINWASHED CULT FIENDS. STOP YOUR CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES IMMEDIATELY. THE FALSE AND GREEDY FASCIST RUGU CULT AIN'T WORTH A PRISON SENTENCE THAT WILL RUIN YOUR LIFE.

Gregg: My advice: I see you have a MAC:
go to Preferences in your email browser
1. keep your security zones at the highest level when browsing.

2. set cookies to Never Accept

3. set give a warning message whenever something is being sent to or received by your computer

4. go to tucows.com [the Mac pages] and download eradicator, and any security software you want [incl free, shareware, or pay], + get a firewall installed.

5. when posting a long post, go offline to write it, then also back up your post on a word processor [MS Word, or Works,etc.]. Then, go back online, click to post [lowering security zone for 20-30 seconds]. As soon as post is sent, click to high security again.

6. Don't leave your computer on-line unattended for more than 1-2 minutes on an unsecured or external site -- especially on any ex-premie or premie related forum or website.

7. If your computer crashes while on one of these sites, upon rebooting delete all files in the cache. [there are probably 1-2 that are part of the browser, however.] then check to see if your browser/email preference settings are the same, or if they have been changed somehow. If they are different, check for a virus/worm [tucows.com has an updated list of top current viruses]. Reset your preference settings.

8. r.e. email: Never open attachments from senders you don't know. If it is a forwarded email chain list with an attachment, do NOT open the attachment unless the email is from a known party and specifies what the attachment is about.
if the attachment has an .exe suffix [execute], do NOT open it -- delete the email immediately. [my server scans all my email for me now before I even open it.]

9. If you have a virus or spam problem, report it to your ISP.

10. If you can trace the source of spam, notify them directly to cease and desist, or you will get their ISP to shut them down.

11. If you can trace the source of a virus to a person/org, and you determine that the act committed by them was intentional, then notify the legal authorities in your area: e.g. Scotland Yard, FBI, federal prosecutor, etc. Under international treaties signed by 100+ countries, cyber sabotage is a criminal activity and can be enforced internationally.

Unbeknownst to one premie hacker, we have caught and uncovered the i.d. of that person, and we are prepared to indict them and put them behind bars for 5-10 years -- should they Ever attempt cyber sabotage again.

Now, more and more people are starting to see that the so-called world of miragey is Really a fascist rugu empowerment cult.

Good luck!

Peace and lentils,

da lil swami

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:54:31 (EST)
From: Innocent Bystander
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: criminal hacker alert/warning!
Message:
Some info about JHB which could support your hacking theory:

Revealing the American Language of Intelligence, by Jean-Marie Bonthous, uncovers the emotions underlying the way American respond to the very idea of gathering and using information on competitors, and the irrational fears that prevent American companies from taking advantage of vital data. The book provides recommendations for making CI work in America’s corporate environment.

1996, 83 pages, US $45.00.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:31:07 (EST)
From: Such-Could it have been due to the
Email: None
To: such
Subject: new pr firm info you uncovered?
Message:
Sounds pretty expensive and nasty, like the next phase or something.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:40:59 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Gregg
Subject: Offer
Message:
Gregg,
You really MUST read that post. If you can't read it, email me and I will send it to you that way.
Joe
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:26:24 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: My Browser crashes rdg John's post. Suggestion
Message:
re-install your browser and/or update it
check your computer for viruses
check your hard disk free space
enough ram ?
clean your browser's cache
......
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:47:16 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: My Browser crashes rdg John's post. Suggestion
Message:
defrag your hard drive.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:46:38 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: John Macgregor
Subject: *** UTTERLY DAMNING***
Message:
Thank you John - that is an astonishing indictment of Maharaji's world. It brought back to me all the awful feelings I had as a late 70's aspirant. The era where we aspirants were all pummled into the ground night after night and every weekend for months and months (or in the case of one poor friend of mine, 3 years) until we were 'empty'. That is, until our personalities had been deconstructed and reformed into that of 'premies'.

All of us were emotionally on the edge, some of us became pretty disorientated. Some (I can't talk about details, for fear of disclosing identities) became mentally ill. Though needless to say, that was not our interpretation of our states of mind THEN. Except in one case I remember...

One person was behaving so strangely after getting knowledge (from Jagdeo)that some of us protested to Jagdeo that he/she be seen by a doctor. Jagdeo dismissed our protest with disdain - we were made to feel that we were off the wall, disloyal to Maharaji, and lacking in trust in Knowledge to even think this person might need medical assistance.

All power to that brave participant who likened the trainings to Nazi-like tactics. Mental torture to breakdown all resistance. Until the personality disintegrates.

Thank you so much again for spelling out the process by which Maharaji destroys people.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:05:58 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Nothing's changed then.
Message:
Hello John,
Thanks for putting in the time to write your post - a jolly good read.
I left K about 12 years ago ( what am I still doing talking about it?) after being a premie for over 20 years. In all the time I was going to festivals/satsang etc. what you are describing was always taking place although in a more subtle way. The unwritten rules, mixed messages, ostracising dissenters, an atmosphere where you were made to feel stupid if you questioned anything that M or the Mahatmas said etc. etc. In fact the whole carrot/stick thing where you will get infinite joy if you practice ( although of course there will be much raising of the dust when you start out on the road so don't expect instant bliss ) and the infinite pain/loss if you don't.
The absolute authority of the master to know what's best for you and the absolute stupidity of the disciple who must surrender the reigns of his/her life. How could we know the meaning of anything, mere mortals that we were with our innefficient brains/minds? Also the emphasis on his supernatural omnipotency - I remember Raja Ji saying that M had the power to turn lies into truth.
It's not changed a bit - just been made more formal and businesslike ( which was beginning 12 years ago and is what triggered my departure )
'One of the great
difficulties in leaving Knowledge is that no premies wish to discuss it: one is thus deprived of one's usual support base.'

So true - when I left all my premie friends thought I was just 'spacing out' which left you feeling a bit lonely and wondering what to do next with your life. It is this vacuum that is created that I think needs to be addressed when trying to help new ex-premies. When you say
'this is not a war against
people, it's a war against an idea. '

I couldn't agree more but if premies are being encouraged to abandond their faith isn't it important, along with solidarity and support, to offer something to replace it when the war is won? As Jim pulled me up on criticising the war in Afghanistan saying that if I didn't have a better suggestion then shut up ( although I still disagree that we can't criticise something we judge to be wrong even when we don't quite know what the right thing is ), the same should apply to attacking a faith that provides someone with comfort and confidence - no matter how illogical and ridiculous it appears to be.
I know it's difficult to offer a 'real' alternative view on life, but it is more important to do so in this case than in trying to shake someone's political ideas as an individual's life rests on the superstition and nonsense that they have been taught. I suppose what I am saying is that we should try and provide a soft landing before we try to pull the rug out from under them.
Ideally it would be nice to demonstrate a better, more real alternative before trying to show someone else the error of their ways.
However, I have yet to discover the true meaning of life and reality so the function of helping those who have made their own decision about leaving the world of M&K takes priority IMHO over trying to convince anyone that they are following a path built on illusiory wish-fulfillment (even if I think they are)
There is, of course the ex-premie community and it's wealth of ideas and experience, that, thanks to those who set it up and continue to run it, is a great soft landing pad for many.
Anyway, giving the facts regarding Elan Vital and the life and times of it's master help to confirm the exiter's decision. You, and other long serving high ranking members of the organisation, are providing a great service to exes by posting these details.
Your description of M's angry outbursts at the 'trainings' certainly paint the Prince of Peace in a different light. There is nothing worse than such bully tactics and it was seeing him lose his temper that also contributed to my leaving.
Despite that disturbing imagery, it's nice to hear that you are 'happy to concede that Maharaji has good points: everyone does, and black and white thinking gets us nowhere - other
than into cults, perhaps. '
( although from your accounts his outbursts at the trainings it seems that the good points are on the decline )
Again, wise words and such thinking also prevents the polarised arguing that sometimes goes on to no real purpose, when what we are dealing with is a search for truth and offering support for people who, like we once were, trying to emerge from an unreal world.
cheers
berni
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 09:23:57 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: VERY scary
Message:
Dear John -
Your description of the 'trainings' is quite frightening. Sounds like a blend of Chinese Cultural Revolution tactics (particularly the self-criticism and scapegoating), EST trainings, and some of the newer so-called corporate trainings (I've never attended one of these, thank god - but have heard.)

I was particularly upset by the scapegoating of a chosen individual. Haven't these people ever read the story 'The Lottery' or Ursula LeGuin's 'The Ones who Walk Away from Omelas' (highly recommended)?

And re the unquestioning obedience: 'If the team decides it's dark outside, and you look out and see that it's light, IT IS DARK OUTSIDE! - that would be enough to make many people crazy right there - if you can't rely on the evidence of your physical senses - let alone your judgement or human compassion - what can you rely on?

The whole training process sounds like a primer for 'how to make a dysfunctional family'. Or worse.

Take care - and thanks, as always, for your post,
Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 09:37:21 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And no wonder you wrote this...
Message:
...about this forum (in your previous post).

For all the raucousness of the forum, the ex-premie community is everything the premie community should have been, but signally failed to be: egalitarian, compassionate, irreverent, mutually supportive. The ex-premie community also embraces the free flow of information. After the years of EV's information-suppression, in-group secrets and
language-distortion, this feels to me like a borderline spiritual experience.

I thought this was a bit hyperbolic at the time, but I can definitely understand it now. Thank god we're allowed to talk, disagree, and even engage in internecine fights, occassionally :). And no wonder so many premies read the forum.

It took me years to learn how to be an individual, and to speak for myself, and I'm still learning. I can't imagine getting " training" to try and reverse this process. And I wish someone would scream and yell BACK at Maharaji once in a while - without getting thrown out of the room - it would be good for him.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:46:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Good point, Katie
Message:
Yes, you're right. I, too, wondered why John was waxing on so as if it was such a big deal that we could all talk a bit here. After all, with premies no longer required to repress their thoughts by listening to their breath 24/7 and to avoid all 'chit chat', I thought they had a bit of a point that things had lightened up a bit. But now, all I can say, is 'Oh my God! -- speechless, really. Speechless, in the sense that what I'm really feeling about all this is, for now at least, inarticulable.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 06:57:37 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: too much bad smell
Message:
Hi John,

it's really dam long your post and I need a dictionary. When I was in Amaroo 97 I smelled the rat, but could not but my finger on it, your post gave me the facts. My friends thougt I'm a little bit crazy because I always got angry when I was talking about Amaroo 97. It's a cult camp I always said, it's not for free people, now I'm glad that I see I can trust my nose.

I have an old friend in your area, he is a gardener from Germany, he worked for many years as a gardener in M's residence near Brisbane (I don't want to write his name here). I don't know wether he still is involved, but I'm sure you know him. If you see him say hello and if possible say to him that wolfi from Erlangen now is on the other side of the fence, maybe this make him think a little bit more, because he had a very hard time in the residence and specially when he left. He told me the story but I was not in the state to go deeper cause this would have had the consequence to question M and this was not so possible at this time, somehow I myself still hang on to the illusion that M is a person who should have my respect.

Thanks very much for your post, I will use it to inform more people, I feel ashamed to a lot of people I have indroduced to K and M.

We have learnt a lot and now we know, were we once were so sure that it is not so. Now I have even some more understanding for that nazithing here in Germany and I blamed a lot of people for following Hitler even in my family, but somehow I ran in a equall deep illusion and now I see how things like that can happen.

love ............and laughter...................wolfie

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 07:43:39 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Re: The gardener
Message:
When i was in Australia in the early 90s, I think I met your friend the gardener. He had just been sacked and told to leave maharaji's place and that maharaji didn't want to see him again. This was after 20 years of service.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 07:32:46 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Wolfie!
Message:
You said;

Now I have even some more understanding for that nazithing here in Germany and I blamed a lot of people for following Hitler even in my family, but somehow I ran in a equall deep illusion and now I see how things like that can happen.

That is so good to hear. I always used to defend people being involved with Hitler as somehow brainwashed and not totally responsible. Now I understand where that came from... it was empathy.

Peg

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:56:32 (EST)
From: come on . . .
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Wolfie!
Message:
Christ, why would you even be so inclined? Yes, there may be parallels with being under the cult of personality and such, but not with hanging in there while people were being marched off to death camps!!!!! come on.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:18:03 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: come on . . .
Subject: Come on - you're wrong -
Message:
Read my post below on what happened to ordinary folks when given orders by their Nazi leaders... It is precisely the same mechanisms in operation that get people into cults as those that get people into any authoritarian set-up. AND people are very vulnerable to that. Independent thinking and total autonomy do not come as a 'given'.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 18:04:18 (EST)
From: I hope not . . .
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Re: Come on - you're wrong -
Message:
It is precisely the same mechanisms in operation that get people into cults as those that get people into any authoritarian set-up. AND people are very vulnerable to that. Independent thinking and total autonomy do not come as a 'given'.
Only difference being that m was supposedly on a mission to bring peace and love to the planet and Hitler was on a mission to enslave the planet and kill in atrocious ways fellow human beings. I have a little bit more respect for mankind in general to at least be able to discern between obvious evil and that which is ultimately latent (in regards to becoming a zombie drone marching in some cult of personality). CAC, et al would be proud, you make a good apologist.
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 10:43:43 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: I hope not . . .
Subject: Re: Come on - you're wrong -
Message:
You seem to forget the fact that the nazis genuinely believed they were doing the right thing too.

I dont know where the road paved with good intentions leads... but it has no relation to where we want it to go.

The arguement that the Taliban are bad people is a useful one when one tribe goes to war with another. Its nice to know who the enemy is.

Where I do have an issue with the Taliban - I equally have an issue with christian fundamentalist.. does this make Billy Graham a bad person - or does it mean that I have to choose which camp to belong to ?

ironically both Osama Bin laden, Billy Graham, Maharaji and every single last one of us are looking after number one.

People will be moral if their culture encourages it, and vice versa... but the nature of that morality is also programmed and mediated by social pressure and expediency...

Thou shalt not kill ??

cough.

The differnece between Hitler and maharaji is simply that Hitler was playing a political game. M is playing a personal one.. BOTH probably sincere... as are Jim, and all the various mis-fits who populate this corner of the world.

So who is right ?

And if Maharaji is Right... what are you doing here ?

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 12:20:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: OK, that's a joke, right Loaf?
Message:
The differnece between Hitler and maharaji is simply that Hitler was playing a political game. M is playing a personal one.. BOTH probably sincere... as are Jim, and all the various mis-fits who populate this corner of the world.

I like a good joke as much as anyone. This IS a joke, isn't it, Loaf? I only ask as you seem to have missed my own to Gallowa Hills last week so I'm not really sure what you're thinking. Are you?

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 07:10:03 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Its a joke Jim
Message:
.. but not a good one !

just playing

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 18:45:33 (EST)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: I hope not . . .
Subject: Re: Come on - you're wrong -
Message:
Only difference being that m was supposedly on a mission to bring peace and love to the planet and Hitler was on a mission to enslave the planet and kill in atrocious ways fellow human beings.

That was never Hitler's own perceived objective. His dreams were of love, beauty, truth and - maybe the odd Valkyrie. In reality, getting there can be a bit messy, maybe - but you could say the same about pretty well any authoritarian leader with a nasty streak and a Big Dream - with himself as leading player, of course.

I have a little bit more respect for mankind in general to at least be able to discern between obvious evil and that which is ultimately latent (in regards to becoming a zombie drone marching in some cult of personality).

More respect than whom? The evil that personality cults do is rarely perceived as such by those simply carrying out orders.

CAC, et al would be proud, you make a good apologist.

Do you mean Moley? Fascinating - please explain. And, BTW, who the fuck are you?

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:38:31 (EST)
From: Give us a break
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: Nigel
Message:
That was never Hitler's own perceived objective. His dreams were of love, beauty, truth and - maybe the odd Valkyrie. In reality, getting there can be a bit messy, maybe - but you could say the same about pretty well any authoritarian leader with a nasty streak and a Big Dream - with himself as leading player, of course.

There's a big difference to sitting with a blanket over your head poking your eyes and believing that you're a speck of crap at his lotus feet to going out and shooting, gassing, and conducting medical experiments on your compatriates. Of course what we're supposedly arguing about here is to what extent human beings are just pliant suggestable automatons not able to use their own noggins and exercise free will. My concern here, then, is that you and moley are ultimately stating that any manner of abysmal behavior is excusable simply because we were programmed and only following orders. BTW, that's what I mean about being an apologist. Excusing away atrocities using the same paint brush used for understanding manipulation.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:14:05 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Give us a break
Subject: Are you a moron?
Message:
I don't know why I am taking the time to copy part of your post... but here goes:

My concern here, then, is that you and moley are ultimately stating that any manner of abysmal behavior is excusable simply because we were programmed and only following orders.

No - who said anything about excusable ??? For Chrissake????
Jesus - get yer brain in gear, even 1st would be a start.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 22:33:18 (EST)
From: Ad hominen
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: moron?
Message:
Not that you meant 'excusable' explicitly but rather implicitly, by extension.
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:41:18 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Ad hominen
Subject: says you
Message:
Not that you meant 'excusable' explicitly but rather implicitly, by extension.


---

Are you a mind reader?

To be scrupulously fair, it is a fairly common mistake to imagine that understanding implies condoning. But it is not a mistake I would expect Moley to make. Why do you so confidently make your assertion?

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:43:44 (EST)
From: Sesame
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: says you
Message:
It is true that understanding is not condoning and I am not under the impression that Moley is condoning becoming a nazi. It is obvious she has made the parallel that because she was susceptible to being brainwashed into following m that it follows that had she been around in the '30s and '40s in Germany she could easily have become a nazi. To me that is overly simplistic and I don't make that kind of parallel. Most of us came voluntarily to m because we were seekers after 'truth' and we bought his promise that by doing so we would find personal 'redemption' and be assisting to usher in an new age of peace and understanding. How many of us would have hung around if we knew that in order to achieve this goal we would have to participate in the slaughter of millions of people?

Of course I understand the counter arguments of Hitler also being a 'visionary' of sorts who offered purpose and whatnot to his followers. And that people are easily swayed into obedience by strong authority figures. And that Milgram's research shows that 60-65% of average citizens will do nasty things if they think that someone else is accepting responsibility. The bottom line, however, is that the paradigms are not interchangeable.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 11:42:08 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Sesame
Subject: Sesame, see Police Battalion 101
Message:
That I discussed in a post just below on this thread , with the subject Becoming a premie - or a Nazi . What you said:

It is true that understanding is not condoning and I am not under the impression that Moley is condoning becoming a nazi. It is obvious she has made the parallel that because she was susceptible to being brainwashed into following m that it follows that had she been around in the '30s and '40s in Germany she could easily have become a nazi.

Is simply not the case.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 10:25:47 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Sesame
Subject: Hello Sesame!
Message:
Thank you for expanding on what you meant -- that is, if it's the same person! I'm assuming it is the same person! Please don't be offended if I remark that on-line forums such as this work best if folk stick with just one handle. I hope you understand that it is difficult to converse with a mirage that keeps popping up under different names.

If you are worried about confidentiality, please relax. Plenty of exes (and premies too) have reasons to keep their real life ID to themselves. The trouble has been that some (mostly men) have abused this to pretend to be all sorts of people who do not really exist. Public exposure is about the only practical way of controling such cyber-stalkers.

Provided you avoid using your anonymity to insult and abuse your confidentiality will be respected here. Just pick a handle, a moniker, and stick with it as a courtesy to those who take you seriously enough to spend time talking with you.

I'm pretty freaked out myself at a number of people saying what Moley has. For myself, I don't know. One Jewish great-grandparent was enough to sign a person's death warrant (if some apparachnik wanted to do that ...) so perhaps I would have had little choice in the matter.

Ordinary people did oppose the Nazis, it is true. But most did not. I guess we have to recognise the facts, and take things from there.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:09:12 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Give us a break
Subject: No comment. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:49:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Give us a break
Subject: Use a handle, a name, something
Message:
Don't be so rude. There's no excuse for it, now is there?
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 18:48:37 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: To 'I hope not'- what the buggery
Message:
bollocks are you on about??? I don't QUITE see how I am an apologist for the CAC site.... Care to illuminate?
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:38:37 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Thanks for saying that Moley... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 10:09:42 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Peg
Subject: Becoming a premie - or a Nazi
Message:
I agree with what Peg's said to you Wolfie. I was very moved reading what you wrote. I've often thought that if I was a German in the 1930's I have no reason to suppose that I would not have joined the Nazi party. I also have no reason to suppose that I would not have continued to support Hitler during the war.

There is an amazing book about a WWII German police battalion, I think it is called Police Battalion 101 . It describes what happened to a bunch of ordinary German civilians, such as shopkeepers, postmen, teachers and the like, who came to be recruited into the police. (This happened later in the war because the normal police forces were recruited into the army to make up for army 'losses' ). The civilians that became police battalion 101 were sent to, I think, Poland and told they were going to be given a special mission the next day.

They were told that when they were informed of the nature of that mission, they were at complete liberty to refuse to do it, and, if they did refuse, there would be absolutely no reprisals against them. They were under absolutey no obligation to carry out the mission.

So - the mission was to go into the neighbouring town, capture Jews, take them into the local woods, make them lay face down on the earth, and shoot each of them in the back of the head.

Only 3 out of the 101 ordinary men stepped forward to refuse the mission.

The remainder, when asked later why they did not step forward, generally reported that they felt extremely uncomfortable about the mission, but they felt that it was not their responsibilty, they would just be obeying orders, they would not really be responsible for the death of those Jews. Many also felt very uncomfortable about standing out from the group. In other words, they had surrendered their individuality to the group, and more specifically to their leader.

These remainder did the job, and many more like it. Some kept diaries of their missions. They described the states of mind that they were in as they took their individual Jew and murdered him (or her). States of mind ranged from total detachment through to numbness, mere mild distaste, feelings of disquiet,and genuine remorse and sorrow. Yet even those with the latter states of mind still carried out their missions.

Well , there's lots I could say about what this account says about human nature - but I think it speaks for itself....

Love
Moley

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 16:21:49 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: I don't believe you Moley!
Message:
I have no reason to suppose that I would not have joined the Nazi party. I also have no reason to suppose that I would not have continued to support Hitler during the war.
What if you knew about the concentration camps and the mass slaughter of innocent people?
I know I hardly know you at all Moley - just read your coherent, intelligent posts here and there but I refuse to believe that you or most sane people with any sensitivity would go out and kill a stranger because the authorities say that you should. Maybe if they are threatening you with torture and death you might be persuaded, but in the normal course of events?
I was a premie for most of my adult life and tried my best to tow the party line as eternal bliss was promised, but if any mahatma, ashram premie, or M him self told me to do anything against my in-built ethical code, then I would have left the cult even sooner than I did.
I suppose it depends on where you draw the line ( there are such varying levels of sensitivity and brutalisation ), but even under influence of the Lord of the Universe, I could never have willingly seriously hurt another person - and I am sure you are the same.
berni
p.s.
Also, didn't the Neuremberg trials set the precedent that the plea of 'just following orders' was unacceptable? - even if under the influence of a charismatic leader.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:01:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: No, I believe her alright
Message:
Why not Moley? If not her, who? Chilling, isn't it?
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:57:02 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: berni
Subject: Berni - don't overestimate human nature
Message:
Thanks for your very kind appraisal of my good self. But, I stand by what I said. See Nigel's post below Two Chilling Reminders ...

Love

Moley xx

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:26:47 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: remember Pat Halley.+WPC,m's security goons
Message:
several of marji's security personnel told me, on several occasions, they would kill for m., if necessary or as directed, unquestioningly.
Just like good lil SS Nazis.

more to come, sometime this year: related to this subject.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 17:53:26 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: such
Subject: Two chilling reminders...
Message:
Coincidentally, I mentioned the nazi-comparison up above in my response to John before reading this part of the thread. It isn't that far fetched at all.

Stanley Milgram in 1963 was interested in whether there was anything special about the German people that could turn them so easily into murderers of innocent civilians. He rigged up an elaborate and now famous experiment in the US, inviting members of the public to help in an academic 'learning' experiment, in which electric shocks were voluntarily administered by the volunteers under the direction of a guy from Yale in a white lab-coat to another, hidden volunteer (unknown to the volunteers, the machine was a fake and the subjects screams were the voice of an actor).

The volunteers - in control of the machine, under direction - were required to keep increasing the voltage up to apparently lethal levels marked 'XXXX'

67% of volunteers went all the way. As Moley put it , but they felt that it was not their responsibility. If the authority 'feels' legitimate the results can be very disturbing.

Look-up also Zimbardo's famous 'prison' study (soon-to-be reproduced as a Big-Brother-style 'reality TV' experiment in the UK - heaven forbid..!)

Did you see Edgar Reitz's wonderful (1984) 13-part TV film, 'Heimat'? It shows beautifully how easy it is for ordinary unquestioning and decent members of the public to become out-and-out Nazis - in thought, at least, if not in deed.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:05:08 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Links to info re experiments
Message:
See The Stanford Prison Experiment
obediance
Think about Rawat's edict to premies to dig the hole if told to, even if it will kill them. This is very much like that experiment, only the person being killed is themself, not another. Considering how many 'normal' people submitted in that experiment and how brainwashed premies are, one can see how dangerous the situation is.
www.zimbardo.com
www.stanleymilgram.com

There was also an experiment in which subjects went along with a group of other subjects (or so they thought) in incorrectly assessing the comparative lengths of black bars on a piece of paper. A large percent went along with obviously incorrect assessments, saying that the shorter bar was longer.
This relates to the edict from Rawat that premies must go alnog with the 'team' even if it's obvious that the team is wrong (like saying it's dark out when it's light out).
Submission to what is obviously false, strange but it happens. It happened to me, I knew after 'receiving Knowledge' that it was not at all what it was billed as, but I submitted anyway. I remember looking at a couple of 'new' premies who looked at me with a disappointed look that said 'You know this ia bullshit'. I looked back with a look that said 'Yea, I know, but I'm stuck in the bullshit.' I felt ashamed. They didn't stick around, good for them, I wish I had been as wise as them.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 18:41:00 (EST)
From: I don't buy it
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Apologies R Us
Message:
See my response to moley above. What about the millions of people on the planet that have had the good sense to reject overtly evil orders and plans from tyrannical leaders not to mention messianic gurus, etc. That was as true in Nazi Germany as has been in more benign circumstances. Of course people are open to suggestion - coke's the real thing don't you know - but to make an argument that attempts to absolve humanity from abysmal crimes because they were so pliantly succeptible to being programmed is abhorrent in the extreme. Like I said to moley I have more faith in the collective good sense of humanity than that. The majority of people who came to margie rejected his message and his knowledge, remember. The Taliban may have seized the reins of power in Afghanistan but not necessarily the hearts and minds of the majority of the people.
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:36:51 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: I don't buy it
Subject: not the point
Message:
See my response to moley above. What about the millions of people on the planet that have had the good sense to reject overtly evil orders and plans from tyrannical leaders not to mention messianic gurus, etc. That was as true in Nazi Germany as has been in more benign circumstances. Of course people are open to suggestion - coke's the real thing don't you know - but to make an argument that attempts to absolve humanity from abysmal crimes because they were so pliantly succeptible to being programmed is abhorrent in the extreme. Like I said to moley I have more faith in the collective good sense of humanity than that. The majority of people who came to margie rejected his message and his knowledge, remember. The Taliban may have seized the reins of power in Afghanistan but not necessarily the hearts and minds of the majority of the people.


---

The point of the experiments was not to show that EVERYONE caves in - as clearly stated, not all the subjects did - but that a large percentage did. The experiments were studying the mechanisms of obediance.
The point of these posts (and the experiments) is not to absolve humanity, carrying out evil orders is wrong, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. It's more to try to understand what's going on with blind obediance. Why do people do it?

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 04:19:52 (EST)
From: Sigh....
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Re: not the point
Message:
Thanks G for your responses and links. I am certainly not disputing that blind obedience is dangerous. Nor am I disputing that charismatic leaders - politicians, gurus, corporate trainers, etc., can be dangerous given people's propensity to be brow-beaten into submission and also given the scary history of unhinged cult leaders (Peoples Temple, Solar Temple, EV, etc.)

Milgram's research did theorize 'why' average people were willing to apply what they thought were nasty electric shocks to 'poor learners' - and indisputedly revealed a dark side to 'everyman's' nature. Moley made the comment (paraphrasing an intro to one of Kurt Vonnegut's books, incidentally) that if she were around in Germany in the '30s/40's she would have been a nazi (she obviously feels that she would have been one of the 60% of 'teachers' who continued to apply increasingly powerful electric shocks in face of apparent suffering).

We know that Milgram conducted the experiments because he thought he was going to discover proof that Germans had a greater propensity for evil than others following the holocaust. Milgram (a jew) was surprised to discover that average Americans had these reactions - so much for research bearing out any pre-conceived ideas. There are, as I'm sure you are aware, theories that dispute not the significance of Milgram's experiment but the inferences. Attached is one such interpretation.

I got into this whole discussion with Moley and Nigel because I reject the notion that the obeisance to cult leaders is synonymous with obeisance to mass violence campaigns under charismatic leaders. I do not buy that because we are capable of being led down the garden path in a cult that that means a majority of us are willing or blindly able to commit horrible atrocities in the world. Some for sure, but certainly not the majority.

Moreover, the latent danger in accepting wholly common interpretations of Milgram's research, is that it can be seen to lessen the culpability of the perpetrators. Yes I know that Nigel and Moley were not saying that, but in effect by logical extension, that is the result. Millions of people were murdered but I was under the spell of a megalomaniac - just following orders - and therefore I am not responsible.

Bin Laden's Al Queda network is responsible for bringing down the WTC and the Taliban is responsible for oppressing the Afghanni people - especially it's women.
[ Milgram's Migraine ]

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:15:13 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sigh....
Subject: responsibility
Message:
You wrote 'I do not buy that because we are capable of being led down the garden path in a cult that that means a majority of us are willing or blindly able to commit horrible atrocities in the world. Some for sure, but certainly not the majority.'
I'm not so certain about that, maybe given certain conditions most of us would.
You wrote 'Moreover, the latent danger in accepting wholly common interpretations of Milgram's research, is that it can be seen to lessen the culpability of the perpetrators. Yes I know that
Nigel and Moley were not saying that, but in effect by logical extension, that is the result. Millions of people were murdered but I was under the spell of a megalomaniac - just following orders - and therefore I am not responsible.'
I don't think a lack of responsbility logically follows, how do you figure that? People are morally obligated not to be 'under the spell of a megalomaniac', to have the courage to stand up to evil authority figures. As to why people 'blindly' obey, I think fear has a lot to do with it. People fear authority. It takes not just some critical thinking, but emotional intelligence to rebel in these situations. A couple of other factors: in the shock experiment, they didn't start out with the XXXX shocks. They got the subjects going down the wrong road, so maybe the subjects wanted to rationalize their prior actions (the lesser shocks) and that set up the excuse for giving in with the XXXX shocks (just following orders, can't admit I've been going down the wrong road since that would show I'm not a good person). Also, people tend to denegrate their victims (both before and after), and this was played upon with the words 'poor learner'. The Nazis denegrated the Jews before killing them. Many people tend to think less of someone they hurt, even accidently. The use of a scapegoat at the 'trainings' is very scary. What might happen next, will they kill the scapegoat?
In the shock experiment, the subjects probably felt alone and isolated in a strange (and possibly percieved as hostile) environment. The fear factor was played upon with the words 'you have no choice', which could be interpreted as a threat.
Yes, bin Laden and Co. and the Taliban are responsible. Even before Sept 11 I felt that Afghanistan should be invaded to free the Afghan people. Some of the Taliban faced a difficult choice due to threats to themselves and their families, but it was a choice and they were morally obligated to resist. The facts of fear, etc. make it somewhat understandable why people obey when they shouldn't (hey, I've done it), but that is quite different than excusing it. I hope that I would have the courage in a dire situation to do the right thing, but sometimes it's very difficult (again, not an excuse).
Btw, what's with the 'Sigh....'? Why take a condescending attitude? Implying that you're right and I'm wrong doesn't support what you are saying and it's not a good way to try to influence someone. People tend to dig in their heels when confronted with words like that (unless they're a wimp). 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' talks about that. I picked up a copy recently and it actually has some good points.
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 14:27:37 (EST)
From: Greetings G
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Re: responsibility
Message:
I don't think a lack of responsbility logically follows, how do you figure that?
The aftermath of the Holocaust and the events leading up to World War II, the world was stunned with the happenings in Nazi Germany and their acquired surrounding territories that came out during the Eichmann Trials. Eichmann, a high ranking official of the Nazi Party, was on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity. The question was, 'Could it be that Eichmann, and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders?' (in terms of establishing whether their crimes were prosecutable in a court of law).

The Nuremburg Trials established that Eichmann, the SS, etc., could not claim that they were simply following orders in order to escape prosecution. In other words, individuals would be held accountable and responsible for their actions.

Milgrams' 'Obedience to Authority' experiment was actually established to somehow understand German complicity in the holocaust. The research concludes:

'With numbing regularity good people were seen to knuckle under the demands of authority and perform actions that were callous and severe. Men who are in everyday life responsible and decent were seduced by the trappings of authority, by the control of their perceptions, and by the uncritical acceptance of the experimenter's definition of the situation, into performing harsh acts. …A substantial proportion of people do what they are told to do, irrespective of the content of the act and without limitations of conscience, so long as they perceive that the command comes from a legitimate authority. (1965)'

So the concern is that people will point to this study and say, look, they are not responsible for committing heinous crimes because they were only following orders by virtue of a verifiable built-in susceptability to obey authority. Statements of scientific 'fact', backed by statistical data can certainly be used disavow responsibility for heinous actions.

[From Milgram's reply to Baumrind's ethical critique of the obedience experiments] 'I started with the belief that every person who came to the laboratory was free to accept or to reject the dictates of authority. This view sustains a conception of human dignity insofar as it sees in each man a capacity for choosing his own behavior. And as it turned out, many subjects did, indeed, choose to reject the experimenter's commands, providing a powerful affirmation of human ideals. (1964)'

Perhaps as an affirmation of the discussion here on forum 7, we can at least agree to take solace from these words of Milgram's:

'When an individual wishes to stand in opposition to authority, he does best to find support for his position from others in his group. The mutual support provided by men for each other is the strongest bulwark we have against the excesses of authority. (1974)'

and

'It may be that we are puppets - puppets controlled by the strings of society. But at least we are puppets with perception, with awareness. And perhaps our awareness is the first step to our liberation. (1974)

(p.s. I meant nothing 'condescending' by using 'sigh' as my moniker, I was just expressing my frustration in getting further and deeper into this discussion than I would have liked in the process of clarifying my comments.) Cheers.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 18:43:37 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Greetings G
Subject: responsibility, mutual support
Message:
You wrote 'So the concern is that people will point to this study and say, look, they are not responsible for committing heinous crimes because they were only following orders by virtue of a verifiable built-in susceptability to obey authority.'

That is a concern, yes, people might say that, but they are wrong. There's no such thing as 'only following orders', people have a choice, though it may be difficult. People do have a susceptability to obey authority, but they can resist that urge when needed. Just how 'built-in' this susceptability is is hard to say. a lot of it could be learned behavior.
I liked the quote about mutual support.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:07:25 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: I don't buy it
Subject: Re: Apologies R Us
Message:
You're all over the place, pal - and missing the point. 'Suggestion' is very different from compliance to instruction in certain social circumstances - namely those situations where the compliance has no detrimental effect on the person acting under instruction from a perceived 'legitimate' authority, who will presumably take responsibilty. Milgram later mailed his volunteers. 97% believed the electric shock machine was the real thing, that the screams of agony were authentic and that 'XXXX' meant 'fatal'. But they turned up the switch regardless.

I'm talking about the 'banality of evil', as someone famous once put it.

I am not trying to 'absolve humanity from abysmal crimes', as you phrased it - rather to point out to the complacent among us who imagine that ordinary people like the guy and gal next door could never do something like that, that guys and gals next door have indeed been doing such things for donkey's for reasons that no doubt seemed perfectly legitimate to them at the time.

BTW: Who are you? Why don't you pick one name and stick to it?

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:12:35 (EST)
From: It's like this . . .
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Apologies R Us
Message:
Originally I was responding to Peg's post to Wolfie, who said she could empathize with Wolfie who has come to understand better how nazis could be in his own family. Wolfie is able to come to terms with this part of his history better now that he has read MacGregor's post - presumably because he has seen within himself and others how falling under the spell of an individual with strong authority and charisma is possible, and how people can be made to comply with rules or orders that might otherwise run counter to their sensibilities. Moley jumped in to say how she could easily imagine herself joining the nazi party, seemingly, drawing an easy comparison to the similarities of surrendering to strong authoriarian figures be they hitlers or maharajis. So I (and Berni) as well, disagreed, stating that a sensible mind could draw a distinction between obvious hate and atrocity and at least by all appearances, the seemingly benign world of gmj. Then you decided to jump in with research info showing how the boy/girl next door can be 'compliant to instruction' from a perceived legitimate source who will take responsibility for their actions regarding giving electric shocks. This was in your words 'to point out to the complacent among us who imagine that ordinary people like the guy and gal next door could never do something like that, that guys and gals next door have indeed been doing such things for donkey's reasons that no doubt seemed perfectly legitimate to them at the time'. By extension, then, according to Milgram's research we are all potential nazis and charlie manson acolytes and ultimately cannot be held responsible for our actions. Apologists can find data that supports their theories so that responsibility will be avoided. This is my point and concern. Do you think Milgram's research would hold up in a court of law? Besides your point you say?
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:00:52 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: It's like this . . .
Subject: more of a warning
Message:
You wrote 'according to Milgram's research we are all potential nazis and charlie manson acolytes and ultimately cannot be held responsible for our actions.'
Milgram said no such things, not ALL subjects obeyed and nothing was said about us not being responsible for our actions.
I see these experiments more as a warning, that many 'ordinary' people are capable of atrocities becuase of blind obedieance. Perhaps you see people as 'good people' or 'bad people' and that these types are fundamentally different, I think it's easier for people to think that. Maybe you think you are incapable of doing something horrible. Are you so sure? I think this is a potentially dangerous attitude, I think people need to be vigilant so as not to submit to the evil in themselves or others. This idea that 'I'm a good person' is very tricky. If you believe that, how will you recognise when you're doing something wrong. I've had to let go of that idea in order to face the wrongs I've done and to try to change.
The book 'The Gift of Fear' goes into this a bit, that normal people are capable of violence. It's a very good book. It describes true fear as a gift because it protects us. It talks about trusting our intuitions, for example if a woman is about to enter an elevator but feels fear of a man in there, she probably should not enter, there's usually a reason for that fear. My intuition told me when I saw 'Maharaji' for the first time 'He's a con man', but I didn't listen.
Maybe people need to listen to their intuition when it comes to authority.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 21:16:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: It's like this . . .
Subject: 'Rude' you mean
Message:
Why should anyone communicate with you when you don't abide by the most basic common decency, not to mention forum 'rule', of using a single name. Are you a regular? Have you posted here before? Why are you doing this? Are you always this rude?
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 19:15:51 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Nigel
Subject: To 'I don't buy it'
Message:
'I don't buy it', you said:

but to make an argument that attempts to absolve humanity from abysmal crimes because they were so pliantly succeptible to being programmed is abhorrent in the extreme. Like I said to moley I have more faith in the collective good sense of humanity than that

I'm not absolving anybody from anything. I'm pointing out how these things happen. And happen they do. You may have faith in the collective good sense of humanity - so what? Try looking reality straight in the face, and see what actually goes on.

Faith is a lost cause.

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 01:10:39 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: good sense of humanity
Message:
Humanity is both good and bad, and oversimplfying things by saying that humanity is good does no good. Making this world a better place takes more effort than simply pretending that most humans are only good. Better to, as you said, look reality straight in the face and see what can be done to improve things. To improve things we need to understand the way it really is, like why people blindly obey, and to teach people early on more critical thinking about these matters.
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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 03:34:12 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Blind Obedience...
Message:
I find this argument futile. There is no generalization for what happened in Nazi Germany.

What I see, feel, and find after reading about Maharaji's training sessions is terror. Isn't it possible that many Germans, regular folk, who probably had no issues with Jews were motivated by fear, terror?

Would I obey Maharaji if he told me to kill someone? Never. And that's something I thought about long and hard while I worked around him closely. Would I have killed for Hitler. Never. I would have found some way to escape or die trying. Do I understand why Germans followed Hitler. No. Evil is beyond my comprehension and I've experienced it first hand. It's something I don't want to explore in life.

I believe that one's survival instinct is more powerful than obedience. Ahh...but there's a caveat, that is, what are my needs at the time someone offers me something in exchange for obedience?

In Maharaji's case, I believed he was the fucking lord. So I obeyed. I did, in fact, compromise my morals and value system because I believed or was lead to believe that the benefits outweighed the breach of my own ethics. And then there's youth. Hitler took advantage of many young people, as did Maharaji. I was young, I obeyed, I was wrong.

Then there are people like Schlindler, who played the party line but exploited the Nazis while helping to save many lives. He didn't have to do that. He was crafty. He saw early on what was really going on and couldn't stomach it. Not so many Germans, or premies, or ex-premies had that opportunity.

But if one goes one step even further,there is the family of origin. What happened in that family, Germans, premies, or those who saw through it all and rebelled? Was obedience demanded unconditionally and what were the consequences if one rebelled? In childhood, a kid in a bad home learns early how to manipulate and not be hurt. But, usually they are hurt anyway. Germany?

Brainwashing, fear, and terror. That's the name of the cult game, be it Nazi Germany, the Taliban, or the Maharajism cult. It's not fair to generalize.

My penny's worth

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 09:47:36 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Terror
Message:
You apparently don't really think this argument is futile, given that you are a part of it, and you seem to be generalizing yourself. Atrocities have happened repeatedly though history, not just in Nazi Germany.

Germans certainly did feel terror, many who resisted were killed.

'Evil is beyond my comprehension and I've experienced it first hand.' sounds like a contradiction. I think we do comprehend it, and most of us want to steer clear of it. I don't fully comprehend full-blown evil, but I do a little, although some evil acts I don't understand at all. A key element in not succumbing is restraint, not to just act upon emotions like hate and fear.

I would not have killed for 'Maharaji', but the scary thing is that a few current premies would.

'what are my needs?' Yes, that's a very good point. When people obey, they are doing it for a reason. To do the right thing though, we need to be clear as to what are needs really are, and also the needs of others. The premie excuse 'I'm having a good experience' doesn't consider the needs of others. It also assumes their real needs are being met, that they really are having a good experience. It also ignores all the negative feelings caused by the cult.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 06:27:23 (EST)
From: swami j. suchabanana
Email: banana@free_at_last.org/y
To: John Macgregor
Subject: cult's unethically facilitated,abusive sessions
Message:
John:

Now that you mention it, Sharon Stokke told me about the Amaroo sessions -- which fried a whole bunch of people.

A number of your other noted observations in the post ring very true with my own personal experiences of the m. cult's extremely abusive, top-down driven, unethically facilitated, fascist team training sessions/workshops, as follows:

--After her arrival, [Ms. X] sat the perpetrators down and instituted
workshops which included self-criticism sessions - written and oral. These lasted several days, and in time broke down all resistance. On Day One, all participants were sat in a large horseshoe ...

--The word 'hysteria' barely does the atmosphere of these sessions justice. Some people were so distraught they could not speak, when their turn came...

--Before the sessions even began, Ms. had made it extremely clear that Maharaji [or David Smith, or other EVI personnel] was very angry at us.

--The Angry Daddy gambit is one of Maharaji's crudest yet most effective
psychological techniques. The Rawat psychology does not need to be subtle. Because of our sincerity, we were extremely easy to manipulate: for Ms. it was like taking candy from a baby. Some of the techniques may have already been in place, from the 1996 international organisers' conference,
where these workshop-style settings began - specifically:

Childhood parental models were invoked to terrify potential dissenters;
philosophical closed-loops were reinforced, in which the master could never
be wrong; the 'group dynamic' was strengthened to dissolve individualism.

--In the end, after some spirited resistance, we all caved.

--At this training Ms. Z yelled at participants that they - the organizational premie volunteers -
were 'insane' and 'lunatics'. She used frequent war analogies, swore
violently, and was extremely angry much of the time.

--The trainings were for premiedom's top 'resources' - mostly managers and those with money. A seldom-appreciated refinement of this is that the trainings were directed at 'resources' who were, with advancing maturity, displaying symptoms of independent thought.

--So - throughout the trainings - once again childhood models of authority and obedience were 're-booted' within the greying skulls of Maharaji's flock. Wealthy businessmen were reduced to obeisant, trembling children who sometimes went dry-mouthed with fear; normally balanced, competent women were driven, in several cases, to hysterical breakdowns.

--Individuality is stomped on.

--Mutual monitoring is stepped up and refined.

- -Certain more trusted group members are secretly recruited by the trainers to work against the interests of those who are to be made an example of.

--The inhibition of independent action by the ratcheting up of fear and of paranoia. (Every participant could become the object of severe criticism, could be expelled from the group, or could even be responsible for the cancellation of the entire training, at any time

--Recurrent use of what cult psychologists call 'the cult of confession' to
undermine the credibility of individuals acting outside of the master's command. (The trainings began with a round of confessions, accompanied by hysterical crying, a dramatic collapse or two, and claims of absolute, total unworthiness. Interestingly, confession had not been called for by M at this stage: premies had merely been asked to say what they expected and hoped to learn from the training, and what they thought would be the most difficult aspect of it. Yet out came the confessions of unworthiness and shame. This undoubtedly says something about the psychological climate within the wonderful world of Knowledge!

--Premies' sense of powerlessness and dependence was entrenched, partly - and bewilderingly - via a set of complex and demanding training rules which participants were led to believe that they created, but which were actually insinuated into the process by the trainers.

--Fear and praise were alternated to implement the above and other
dynamics.

-- People's time was 100% occupied with pointless tasks - long, circular meetings; unwinnable games - to obviate thinking and analysis, especially about the high levels of mind control in evidence.

-- long hours were employed to break down resistance to
thought reform.

--Diminishing of individual discernment - and of individuality - by giving exaggerated value to the 'team'. One whole exercise was directed to getting individuals to 'merge with the team'. If that was the individual's goal, what was the team's? It was, of course, to realise Maharaji's desires. Thus the team dynamic was a kind of front for implanting Maharaji's control.

--the trainings restricted the flow of information to members.
(E.g. participants were led to believe that they themselves invented the
training rules, whereas in fact they were predetermined , and
insinuated into proceedings via an apparently 'democratic' process.

--The trainings were run by psychologists, and other professionals.

--The 'team' dynamic which dominated the trainings was not about democracy,
as the word 'team' might suggest, but was actually a mechanism for
reinforcing Maharaji's authority. I would not characterize this as another
deception, though, because it was made pretty clear from the beginning that
M alone stood outside the team - not only its membership but its ethics - and the take-home, whole-of-life, bottom-line message that was driven home on the last day - the rule of all rules - was simply 'Maharaji'.

--It was a powerful bit of final programming that left no-one in any doubt as to the focus of the training, and the expected future orientation of its
participants.

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---
--
Also, I concur with these statements:

The standard premie defence against criticism - I've heard it a lot lately
- is 'I'm just having a nice experience inside - what's cultish about that?
That's what this whole thing's all about.'

I usually point out that this whole thing is only partly about that: the
second half is about embracing Maharaji as your master. It's about
following his guidelines, obeying him implicitly, and it's about never
criticising him. That is, it's about putting him above the requirements we apply to all other human beings.

Thus the first half of the M/K equation is about feeling good, freedom, personal liberation, and so on. The second half, however, is about obedience, never criticising, and following somebody else's agenda. The entire Maharaji/Knowledge paradigm is founded on a mixed message.

Thus the premie's world is founded upon a dichotomy - a dichotomy which
(usefully enough) helps to disable both thought and volition.

The ritual humiliation, victimisation and frequently the expulsion of the
designated 'black sheep' in some (but not all) trainings has left even some
of the staunchest premies with dark thoughts.

---

---

---

---

---

---

[these blatantly abusive and sadistic, patently unethically 'facilitated' [in fact, a total mockery of professional facilitation techniques] top-down agenda-driven brainwashing sessions were among my own final drips that led me to progressively disassociate myself from the cult]

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 06:00:52 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: You filled in a lot of gaps for me...
Message:
The ''Participation'' committee meetings I was a part of last year. What you described, explained perfectly why things were the way they were. Parts of things you said and described were repeated word-for-word at our committee meetings, when you described them, I suddenly felt like I was there. The insistance on unamimity. The mixed messages. Our Industrial Strengh Church Lady, who had attended many of the trainings you speak of, she was a real ''steering'' force, and now I know better what she was trying to do.

I can't say I'm really suprised, but I didn't realize there were so many dots left in the picture to connect, and you have connected a whole bunch of them for me. And so calmly and rationally, too. Knowing this kind of stuff really does make a difference. It matters, it explains SO MUCH. I look forward to reading more. Thank you.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 05:52:25 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: M's outbursts verbatim?
Message:
Dear John,
thanks for your excellent article. I know accuracy is vital, but could you just turn playwright for a moment and present us with some 'as near as can be remembered' sample sentences as used by M when in full onslaught mode. As a rank and file follower, I only ever heard his public utterences. I still cant quite imagine the divine lips coming out with anything but controlled satsang! I appreciate your restraint and detatchment in describing M's enraged outbursts, but a little more detail of language would help the likes of me.
Love Bryn
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 05:39:20 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Thanks !!!!
Message:
This is one of the worse things I've ever read on M. The guy is truly insane. I'm glad I left before this nazi era.
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 04:39:47 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: John, I don't agree with...
Message:
...the third ''and'' in your 14th paragraph otherwise I applaud every other word. Thank you, thank you. I hope one day that you will be rewarded for the effort you have put into this essay. You will be. Any premie with any integrity left will shake your hand one day.

I was never as deeply into the organization as you but I of course had to deal with the trainees as a ''Lone Ranger'' ''fringe'' premie who happened to be a reliable donator. Only last year, when I decided to go back into the belly of the beast and check it out did I find what you have written about. Thank goodness I went back in or I might still be donating money and watching carefully edited broadcasts oblivious to the fact that I was supporting a sick and twisted cult run by, it seems, Chairman Mao-raji.

I just lapped up every word with thanks to you for putting into words what a lot of us recent exes know but have not looked at with a trained journalist's eye. While there really was nothing with which I could disagree some things jumped out more than others.

You said: The purpose of the trainings was to produce ''a 'core' of 'clear' devotees - clear as to who was Boss, clear as to organizational methods - around whom a global mission could be built.''

The goal of Scientology is to become ''clear.''

Your description of the Amaroo mutiny was chilling. This sentence brought tears to my eyes.

You said: ''One brave participant told Maharaji he thought that training's techniques were reminiscent of the Nazi Party. He has not been singled out for promotion!''

I weep because the remaining premies have not yet seen how right that brave man was.

All I can hope for is that those premies who are hooked on ''that feeling'' eventually figure out that it's their feeling and that Rev Rawat has nothing to do with it. It is ''that feeling'' which is keeping them enslaved in a diseased relationship with someone most of them don't really even know and which blinds them to the fact that they are trapped in an ugly mind-bending, soul-destroying cult.

Bless your Aussie socks.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 03:47:14 (EST)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings)
Message:
John

This is the most profound and insightful resume of the way m works that I have ever read / heard. I was invited to the training in Delhi, and declined the invitation - the bureaucracy and secrecy surrounding the acceptance process was enough to put me off, thank god. But what you have described permeates 30 years of abuse that m has perpetrated on those people who have followed him.

You have written thoughts and feelings which have been fermenting in me for the past 2 or 3 years but never found full expression - I am so grateful to you.

Best wishes

Nick

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 02:28:30 (EST)
From: salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: Mind Fuck (Maharaji's trainings)
Message:
Couldn't you make this post bloody longer.

Any chance of getting text files of these posts that you made. I would like to format them into html and add them to

it IS so

My email is up if you want it. I haven't answered you before as I thought you were doing fine here.

Cheers:)

Salam

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 03:21:54 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Feeling gratitude
Message:
Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou who or whatever or hwatever part of me it was that got me out of this insane cult!

Thankyou John. This is absolutely mindblowing.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 08:42:50 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: WOW,,,,,,,
Message:
After reading your post i feel so happy ,that i got out in time.
and so sad for the ones that still are inside

how can anyone , be involvet is a even bigger mystery after this.

Such a dark , dark cult it has become,

Ex premie org, the forums and post like yours
Are the cure against M`s scary mindfuck.

So

Thank you , for letting us all know how bad it has become now
And do teel us more .

Best wishes Ulf

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:51:41 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: It's a New Day
Message:
I read this post very late last night and was so blown out, that I was speechless. I've read each of the responses and see, once again, how important this information is for us.

Yesterday, as I arrived at a client's home, the fulltme gardener had ripped out the summer flowers, dug out the earth and was mixing compost and dirt in preparation for the new spring bulbs. He had to dig down two feet or more, and was meticulously evening out the soil, adding more black earth. He reached for a handful, crumbling it to show me how it becomes more beautiful and rich with each passing year, as the decaying of the summer flowers and each addition of compost transforms weak dirt into nutrient dense soil.

Being a wannabe gardener, the sight was fasinating, and as he explained the process it seemed to demystify something for me, that has always appeared complicated. After planting the 1,600 bulbs, he was then covering the flower bed with pansies, which in this climate will last through winter until spring.

A simple man in faded blue jeans, scruffy beard with weathered shovel in hand, responsible for such incredible beauty in the world of the wealthy.

I asked what happened to the old bulbs as I remembered the huge bed of tulips the previous year. In this climate, it seems they have to be dug up and replaced due to rotting through the winter. Only daffodils make it. When I return in two weeks time for their next appointment, all I will see is a lovely bed of pansies.

For me, this posting of inside information was very much like digging up the withering flower garden. Ev and M tactics must be dug up, exposing all and sundry, or we will never fully understand what happened to us. We will never fully heal. I think so many have understood to a great extent the trickery and deceit that fertilized our lives, but this validation gives proof. For others, it gives validation to the nagging feelings that something didn't 'feel' right any longer. For others, it's the sheer mechanics of the manipulations that are relevent, especially inlight of what they will attempt next.

One thing that got me yesterday, was the fact that every year rotting vegetation actually enriches the soil, and it is a process that can't be forged. Compost can't be manufactured without passage of time. It can be speeded up a bit, but it still requires time. There can be no compost without time and more importantly, there can be no compost without rotting vegetation.

Today I feel cleaner. The sky looks brighter. And I feel hope has been actualized. The hardest aspect has been to accept M is not the lord. These games are not lila. They are deadly. I now understand what Abi has been up against and how they have convinced her father to be a part of this madness. He never stood a chance, but hopefully something will begin the drip for him.

Once again thank you, for literally helping so many of us reclaim our lives.

Again thank you

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 14:56:05 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Wonderful Post, Vicki, thank you (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:59:37 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: And rotten vegetable ARE GOOD!
Message:
Great post Vicki. I'm blessed to know you.

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 16:58:08 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: Re: And rotten vegetable ARE GOOD!
Message:
Dear Francesca,

I agree, Vicki contributes so much here and so do you:)

Rotten veggies, cow shit, grass clippings...all things m would hate... are such good things. The picture Vicki presented of that gardener makes me smile. There's a real humility (not humiliation) that comes from working soil and growing beautiful things.

I remember videos and satsangs depicting m as a gardener, someone sowing love. He's even spoken about those freakin' seeds he has sown in his premies.

Maharaji doesn't know a thing about humility, gardening, nor love.

As I remember singing songs about loving the 'earth on which you (m) stand' I know for sure now that he doesn't deserve to be called human or deserve to enjoy any part of this planet.

I'm concerned about the safety of anyone around m now. Especially in Amaroo.

Be well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 00:52:25 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Let's have a :)Love In:)
Message:
Cuz I'm grateful for you too. But seriously, I am concerned. This whole thing is a bit scary.

It seems that I keep looking back at this 'heart of darkness' we were all a part of. I forget just how awful and dangerous stupid the whole thing is. The intimidation of grown adults who should know better.

To think that it's continued to go on, and that some people I even know and love are in harm's way. Ugh.

Bests to you!

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:50:08 (EST)
From: C'est magnifique
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New PR for EV
Message:
Apparently Bonthous & Associates is to be the new PR firm for EV. Its principal, Jean-Marie Bonthous, appears to be the acclaimed author of specialist publication 'Bibliography of Business/Competitive Intelligence and Benchmarking Literature', available from Amazon.com at an absolute steal at $275. Look forward to having your intelligence massaged in a highly professional manner.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:28:22 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: C'est magnifique
Subject: Maybe Jean-Marie sent me the anon email!
Message:
God knows EV needs new PR people. The people they had were about the wrold's worst. One thing you learn in PR is you NEVER put a blatant lie in writing, and there were several of those in the Elan Vital FAQs, which were up there for over a year.

Both the FAQs, and those disastrous press releases have now been removed from the website. They have also removed that series of pictures and words at the entrance to the site. Maybe that is Jean-Marie's work.

Jean Marie sure has his work cut out for him. Plus, I wonder how much Maharaji will let him say do whatever he wants. We'll see.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 20:22:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: They're mowing your grass, Joe
Message:
Joe,

That EV letter was just as funny as your own excellent EV parodies. I'm sure that pisses you off as much as anything. My condolences.

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:37:27 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maybe Jean-Marie sent me the anon email!
Message:
Hi Joe. Thanks for posting that correspondence. It was very creepy.

But we now see, based on the letter to you, what EV's PR is going to say about EPO -- we are a hate site. Funny, that's exactly what CAC and its brother sites called us. No wonder we think that EV and M are knee deep in it.

I am amazed that no one had the courage to sign their name to the letter.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 04:23:06 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: C'est magnifique
Subject: Bonthous email address
Message:
Jean-MArie Bonthous:

jmb@leonardo.net

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 05:13:43 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Bonthous: his published Malibu address!
Message:
Jean Marie Bonthous
jmb@leonardo.net

JMB International
31339 Pacific Coast Highway
Malibu CA 90265
fax 310 457 2218

Jean Marie Bonthous
jmb@leonardo.net

JMB International
31339 Pacific Coast Highway
Malibu CA 90265
fax 310 457 2218

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 04:33:45 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@davinci.com
To: such
Subject: Bonthous:'self-generating beliefs'
Message:
'I am looking for a feature film exceprt that illustrates how we live in a world of self generating beliefs.

Does someone have recommendations about a short (203 min) clip of a film that illustrates the progression which the ladder of inference maps?

I will be glad to post the findings

Thanks

Jean-MArie Bonthous'
jmb@leonardo.net

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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 04:25:09 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: Bonthous email address
Message:

[ jmb@leonardo.net ]
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 05:11:01 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Bonthous emails!
Message:
here are some clues: r.e. those EVI pr, website faqs removal, training seminars and current miragey.cult direction:

'To my knowledge, the construct of accountability exists only in English.
It appeared in the English language apparently for the first time around
1600. My (French) mind wonders if this separation between responsibility
and accountability in the ENglish language can be seen as a precursor of
the Taylorism dear to the Anglo Saxon mind?
--
Jean-Marie Bonthous

There is much talk about shared accountability being a sign of true teams.

Can someone shed clarity on the disctinion between accountability and
responsibility? Are they one and the same? or do they do they have
different connotations and denotations?.

Dictionaries such as the American Heritage Dictionary are vague on this
disctinction. In addition, I was born in France, where only the word
responsibility exists (and it is the same in Spain, Italy, etc...).

Thanks

--
Jean-Marie Bonthous

Tim Gallwey did a TV show with Henry Riesner, where the TV channel
selected at random out of the audience a woman who had never played
tennis. SHe happened to be 5'2' and 200lbs and had never hold a tennis
raquet in her hand.

Live on TV, they gave Tim 20 minutes to help her learn tennis. I saw the
tape, it is astonishing. After 20 minutes she exchanges more than ten
balls in a row with Tim (playuing not too hard) and serve quite well. And
the learning subsided after the TV show, as people have told me. Tim did
not do any teaching as one would expect. He coached her into releasing the
thjing in her that already knew how to play tennis.The results were
astonishing (if you hear the tape, listen to cheering from the audience
towards the end of the session).

I had a tennis session with Tim. Last time I played tennis was in 1979,
and I was a terrible player. After 1 hour with Tim, I exchanged 24 balls
with him. After 2 hours, I played a decent game and was not even tired.If
I well remember, Peter Senge quotes Tim on the topic of tacit knowledge in
the Fifth Discipline.

Tim does this kind of coaching for Golf, Tennis, Music, and works in
Fortune 500 in leadership development (The Leader as a Learner), team
building and in helping managers become coaches. I know that Tim has
reflected a lot on the how of learning and has developed a methodology
(Inner Game) that helps trigger the natural ability for learningwhich we
all have.

--
Jean Marie Bonthous
jmb@leonardo.net

Re: ACtion Learning Resources

Little has been written in the US on Action Leqarning. I just wanted to
mention that I just published a chapter on ACtion Learning in the 1996
Handbook of BUsiness Strategy, published by Faulkner and Gray in New YOrk.
The case study in this chapter is about an Action Learning project which I
led in EUrope in a very large ($30billion) utility as part of a management
executive development initiative.

Jean Marie Bonthous

Dear Aaron:

Thank you very much for your kind reply regarding how to grow
strategists./ I am familiar with ACtion Learning and have read Reg Revans.
I have had experience leading sets and just completed an article on Action
Laerning. I truly believe it is the most effective process for growing
strategists. However, for some reason, it does not sit well with teh
American mind. Maybe it is too slow, maybe it is not enough a 'religious'
experience, like workshops can be.

It is intersting to see tha Action Learning has mostly cuahgt up in
countreis of NOrthern Europe, which have a cultural bias towards teamwork,
and consensus.

Individualistic countries like the US find it in my opinion more
difficult. It is significant to see that there are 20 books on Action
Learning liste in 'British Books in Print' and only 1 or 2 in US books in
print. None of these books is even to be found at UCLA or USC, or NYU
universities, in the university libraries......

I have been experimenting with other formats, which even though they
compromise a little bit, can be helpful:one-day workshops, with custom
designed business case, combining facts and inferences, forcing
particpants to lookat realities from multiple perspectives, susp[end
judgement, develop multiple scenarios, etc...I am exploring right now the
use of tools to expose participants to the relativity iof their
perceptions and to invite them to think deeper.

Your work sounds interesting.

It may interest you to knownthat in the Journal of Management Development,
6,2, an article was published called 'Chinese boxes and learning cubes:
action learning in a cross cultural context, by Max Boisot and Michel
Fiol. Boisot was with the EEC management Programme in Beijing.

Glad to talk to you. Are you active in consulting/action learning? What
does your company do?

Regards
Jean MArie Bonthous

Dear fellow netters

I am enclosing the summary of replies received to my recent question :
'Can someone recommend a list of frequently adopted groundrules for
workshops?'
Thank you for your collaboration
Jean-Marie Bonthous

We are attempting to identify best practices and successful experiences in
two areas:

1) - helping managers, who have risen through the ranks for their
operational competencies, become strategists,as they keep moving up the
ladder
2)- helping strategists being learning to the planning process

What tools, techniques, learning technologies seem to best help them
develop the thinking and reflective skills commensurate with a strategic
responsibility in the organization?

I will summarize your answers and post them on the net.

Thank you

Jean-Marie Bonthous
JMB International

Can someone recommend literature about or share examples of hiring
practices in LOs?

--
Jean Marie Bonthous

I am researching boards of directors (both in the for profit and not for
profit sector) that are attempting to become learning boards. Could some of
you share best practices, insights and recommendations of literature on
this topic?

I wil be glad to post the summary
Thank you

--
Jean-Marie Bonthous

Can someone recommend a high quality video on teambuilding for an audience
of sophisticated, slightly skeptical European executives? Anything tacky or
corny would turn them off.I'm looking for a video comparable in content
quality to the ones that Senge is producing on the 5 disciplines.

Thanks

--
Jean-Marie Bonthous

I am researching how the (internal) communication function is being
handled in LOs.

Does someone have recomendations of
- relevant literature
- companies and practitioners that embody best practices in this area

I will be glad to summarize the postings
Thank you

Jean Marie Bonthous
jmb@leonardo.net

Could someone recommend a listserver dealing with organizational
development issues?

Thanks
Jean-Marie Bonthous
From: jmb@panix.com (Jean-Marie Bonthous)

Intro to Action Learning LO10341

jean-marie bonthous (jmb@leonardo.net)
Fri, 4 Oct 1996 21:29:39 -0700

* Messages sorted by: [ date ][ thread ][ subject ][ author ]
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Michael Erickson (sysengr@atc.boeing.com) requested that I write a short
intro to Action Learning and I thank RIchard Karsh for encouraging me to
do so. Although it was invented in England in the 50-s by a Cambridge
Professor, Action Learning has not yet earned much acceptance in the US.
IMHO, after 10 years of using AL for executive development, I find it to
be the most effective management/executive development tool.

I run a management consulting firm with a se in executive development and
in the management of radical change, and Action Learning is one of the key
tools that we use to help clients faced with the need for radical change
among others at the top of their organization. In the US, Motorola,
Digital, Coca-Cola. PSEG, GE and a few other large companies have
successfuly used it for executive development.

AL is very subtle and does not lend itself well to being described in
words. Like golf or ice cream, it needs to be experienced.

It is hard to condense many years of experience with AL into a short
intro, but I will try:

1) What is Action Learning ?

* AL is a deliberate program for allowing managers to learn by working
with each other in groups (called 'sets') on real-life issues, with input
from an external adviser (the 'set adviser').

* AL creates an environment conducive to managerial learning:
- learning takes place by grappling with tasks, with and from a group of
others who are also engaged in managing real problems.
- members of the group retain responsibility for solving their own
problems, by contrast with project teams or task forces.
- members of the group are concerned with implementing the issues
explored. They are not simply seeking theoretical solutions to problems.
- AL is not a panacea. It does not guarantee that learning will take
place, but ensures that the prerequisite conditions for learning will be
there.

* AL does not prescribe any solutions as best, or any one as the correct
best way. Participants learn to solve problems and address opportunities
problems by asking the right questions, rather than by trying to impose
favored solutions.

* AL is a simple, yet delicate process: In Reginald Revan's facetious
words, 'it is so simple that it takes ten years for professors to
understand it'. Many companies make the mistake to try to adapt Action
learning without understanding fully the consequences (shortening the
process, reducing the depth of the learning, or declaring themselves
overnight set facilitators), and fail. AL cannot be learnt by reading a
book or an article.

2) AL IS Different From Traditional Management Education

* AL views learning as a central, natural human behavior. which takes
place during encounters with the real world. However, as human beings do
not always learn from success or failure, AL provides an environment where
learning is integrated with work: periods of action alternate with periods
of reflection.

* Learning is the central purpose of AL. The use of the term 'AL' implies
that the focus is on learning. AL uses the resolution of problems or the
exploitation of opportunities as a vehicle to generate the learning. The
learning may seem to be a byproduct. It is in fact both the method and the
purpose of AL.

* AL demonstrates that management development is more likely to occur as a
result of reflecting on real-life experience than from adding more
theoretical knowledge. To maximize learning, AL favors 'Questioning
Insight' , obtained by stepping out of one's familiar frames of reference
and allowing new ones to come in, and utilizes 'Programmed Knowledge'
(knowledge found in books, or among experts, and that has been used to
solve yesterday's problems) only as a last resort.

* AL surfaces the social dimension of learning . AL is more than mutual
growth or instruction, whereby each partner supplies the deficiencies of
others with the knowledge or skills necessary to complete some mission.
Lending expertise remains incidental, learning from each other remains
key.

* AL allows to safely introduce reflective questioning in the management
process. AL argues that the most effective learning occurs when people
recognize a common ignorance rather than when they share pre-existing
knowledge.

* AL does not try to shape the individual to a predetermined standard.
Rather, its emphasis is on assisting managers in seeing their individual
and work realities from different perspectives.

* AL is eminently practical: Translating newly found insights and
perspectives into practice is an integral part of the program. All that
goes on during the program has its subsequent counterpart on the field. AL
program last from 6 yo 18 months. Depending on the scope of the project
and on their commitments in the organization, some of the participants
work full-time on their project, and some half-time. All participants are
volunteers, who have been recommended by their managers and are perceived
as capable to become prospective directors or general managers within 3 to
5 years. Some participants may work alone on an issue, and some
collaboratively. Issues to be worked on are selected jointly by sponsors
('clients') and participants. During the entire project, participants
maintainclose contact with their client.

Participants meet at weekly intervals, with set advisers facilitating the
process. Each set is assembled with great care from a mix of issues
tackled, experience, ability, personality and geography.

Participants, in turn, present the problems/opportunities which they are
grappling with, while other set members and the adviser listen, pose
questions and offer advice and suggestions. The process causes the
presenters to rethink their positions and approaches. This leads to
further thoughts and ideas to be tested in action during the periods
between set meetings.

The results are later presented and discussed at later set meetings. The
presentation in the set of organizational issues leads the discussion into
the full range of managerial activities: strategy, negotiation, marketing,
organization, finances. Considerable dialogue occurs about the depth and
nature of individual and set learning.

Lessons From AL Programs

1) * The choice of the issues to be worked on is critical.
Broad, systemic problems should be preferred over 'technical puzzles'.
Problems that are both intellectually and emotionally and politically
challenging are preferable. .

2) * Emphasis away from being a subordinate, towards becoming learner,
increases anxiety. Participants need to:
- have the ability to ask challenging, penetrating questions.
- be willing to constructively criticize and be criticized.
- be willing to listen to and to put into practice other people's ideas.
- dare to surface and overcome their doubts and anxiety and innate
tendencies to flight, deny, avoid, be defensive, resist learning and find
refuge in willing ignorance.

3) * Set participants need ongoing cooperation with:
- the people who own the issue they work on.
- the individuals or groups who have significant stakes in the
problem/opportunity.
- the departments which have a bearing on the issue.
- those that will play a role in the implementation of the recommendations.

4 ) * Set advisers need to:
- Have been themselves set participants. One cannot improvise oneself set
adviser.
- Keep the focus on learning, ask extraordinary questions, introduce new
ideas and help people see connections between ideas, situations, problems
and solutions.
- Let each participant and each set take its own course, depending on
individual experience and circumstances and resist the temptation to be
charismatic figures, providers of solutions, experts, teachers (but they
need to take on these roles at different times).

The choice of set advisers is a delicate one, in that they both need to:
have an understanding of the facilitation process and to master the
complexities of the business issues being dealt with in the sets.

Typical situations that offer opportunities for AL

* A number of opportunities or problems exist which are crucial for the
company. Existential, real-life situations are favored by contrast with
experimental, dreamt-up situations like games or simulations which provide
useful, but limited learning.

* The issues involve a broad understanding of the company, rather than
simply present a technological puzzle.

* The issues extend across more than one function in the business. Their
drivers and implications are system-wide.

* No one solution to the issues at hand exists, and no solution can be
found through systematic analysis. Solving the problem requires both an
intellectual and an emotional stretch. The whole-person involvement of
those that will work on the issues is critical.

* Resolving the selected issues requires the active involvement,
commitment and cooperation from a number of persons at different levels and
in different areas in the organization.

Conclusion

* AL cannot be accurately described: it needs to be experienced. The only
way to learn about AL is to be in a participant in a set.

* The process is difficult: some participants cannot accept the
confronting feedback from their set fellow members. Others remain
opinionated, authoritarian and dismissive of others, creating moral and
performance problems in the sets. Some prefer to work alone and decide
that they are not interested in sharing their work with others and leave
the sets.

* Participants look inward and outwards and tackle previously neglected
strategic aspects of managerial jobs, which they would not have thought
possible before. Their sense of self-fulfillment grows dramatically.
Subsequently, they develop a renewed sense of belongingness with the
organization.

* Most participants express that they had learnt more that they had
anticipated possible: not only been acquiring new knowledge or skills, but
becoming more aware, altering their beliefs and values, reasoning and
doing things differently, and applying new skills and knowledge into
something practical and valuable for themselves and the organization.

My understanding is that there are very few people in the US with in-depth
experience in running sets and Action Learning programs. I will be glad to
answer questions from members of the list'

Jean Marie Bonthous
jmb@leonardo.net

JMB International
31339 Pacific Coast Highway
Malibu CA 90265
fax 310 457 2218

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 23:47:30 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Perfect opportunity, but wasted.
Message:
This such crap! I gave this person (who I've been chatting with through a post or 2) and this is where they leave me. Thanks for nuttin!
[ http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=7242.8014052896890 ]
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 07:50:26 (EST)
From: Mummiji
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: You cruel ungrateful boy!
Message:
Dear Barry,

Poor little Dibbledy Bop did her best in that wasteland of LG to extend a bit of her sweetness and light fluffy marshmallow inspiration, and you still complain! She was worried that CD would block you all and delete her little puffs to you. She cried on my shoulder for hours and has severe indigestiion problems due to her overconsumption of those awful 'jet-puffed' wannabe marshmallows, and then you come over here and dis her!!! She is heartbroken and feeling terribly misunderstood. I'm going to send my son to flame you until your skin goes black and falls into the eternal fire!

No Lovijis or hugsijis today dear,

Saucy's Mummiji who's going to have a nice hot cup of double-chia at this silly Club Med internet cafe. :(

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 03:40:31 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@furry_freak_bros.com
To: Barry
Subject: maybe they figured you didn't know dibbledy
Message:
my own idol speculation: dat was no phlegmie -- dat was my mammy! and massa's in da cold, cold, gwound...

hey, 'nuttin' says lovin' like sumptin fwom da oven, so guess they jest baked you a marshmallow. cum to tink 'o it, marshmallows r kinda thilly, but thweet... fluffy like doze soft phelgmie heads -- now, dat's wot a phlegmbotomy will do fer ya, afta all! dat gurujism turns bwains into dat goopy gooroo goo -- like a marshmallow slowly toasting and roasting 'within inside' -- sputtering, drip drip drip drip -- 'within inside.'

so, donut be a massa-kissed; you jest gotta roll wid da paunches, here, there and everywhere -- fer cryin out Lard, awweddy. LOL.
-- jest grin and barry it! hey, it coulda been a lot wuss, bro - like some fanatic maharajiavellian phlegmie spammer, troll, or hacker. jest beware of darkness -- like phlegmie caca lardus, fer ex-sample, or some bjorn-again fundumbmentalist with Norwegian wood fer bwains.

er, maybe stank muffins and marshmallows don't go down well, straight no chaser. at least dat's what some felonious monk tole me once upon a thyme, after he'd had an epistrophy [er, epiphany] after hours of deep medication, er, meditation. so, no need to worry about da valley of da shadow of da jolly green Giant Steps, when you can simply take the A train. And remember, as Wayne swirled might've said, 'it don't mean a ting, if it ain't got dat schwing!'

speakin' of marshmallows, you ever see dat talkie flick Ghostbusters? sigourney weaver was possessed by da poifect massa incarnate, and so da cultbusters had to rescue her and New Yawk fwom dat gooroopy marshmallow manifest. it's all allegorical [according to Rex Reed, anyway]. has to do with some larger-than-life marshmallow boy massa at Hunter College on da upper East Side, circa 1971-2. fulla cymbalism, like an 1812 overture. [speakin of overtures, R u a fwend of dorothy, by chance?] Well, 'we're off ta see da wizard, da wunnafull wizard of Oz,' sang da outback soldiers in da Great War, off to fight da Ottoman Turks. Onward massa-kissed soldiers, marchin' as to war, wid da chord of G-sus, KKKlanging as before, so sleep in heavenly peas und gentiles - oy, goys jest wanna half fun! meshugganahs, too.

ok, kiddo, I got Friday on my mind. anyway, I just dropped in to see what condition yer condition was in... gotta check the First Edition fer news now, then off to da 5th Dimension -- but not up, up, and away in da wizard's bootyfull balloon. 'cuz This ain't Pottowatamie, Kansas, Toto! And dere ain't no auntie m. here, n don't ya know that dere ain't no such thing as a sanity clause, too! oy, da kid's a comer... maybe a goner soon, now...i.e. spiritual goner rhea.

in closing, don't rely on a paypal prempal penpal. 'cause a bird in her bush is betta dan a bird in yer hand. ok, crass dismissed. thanks fer da clap.

a flagellant phlegmie's prayer: now I lay me down to weep, I pray my Lard my unworthy estate to keep, and if I should die before I wake, I pray my Lard my unworthy soul to take.

marji's prayer: now I lay monica down to sleep, i pray myself my toys to keep, and if i should die before i wake, i pray myself my toys to take.

peas and gentiles,

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Date: Sat, Nov 17, 2001 at 15:42:06 (EST)
From: ReJoyce
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Grate, Such
Message:
Shmerfle
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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 23:43:18 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: No help from them.
Message:
Read my post, which is serious enough I'd say. Then read the reply in the next post.
[ http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=12018.7800924364005 ]
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 07:58:17 (EST)
From: Mummiji
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: And, young man ...
Message:
Barry dear,

Why didn't you reply to dear sweet Selene's very thoughtful and considerate post to you over at AG2? I'm sure that gErRy does not appreciate these OT threads here either, or those posting in them. Oh dear, I do hate upsetting Gerry of all people, who works so hard to provide this forum! I'm glad one of your friends has helped you out, Barry, and I wish you all the best ... although I don't know if even my wooden spoon can stop Saucykins from flaming you now. I'm sorry I got so carried away, but poor little Dibbledy Bop ... sniff ...

Lovijis and hugsijis,

Saucy's Mummiji

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 22:52:25 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: what is the url to the new cyber caca?
Message:
or should I say, the last cyber caca? Can someone please post it as I need to link to it.

Merci.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 22:56:51 (EST)
From: At your service
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: But never 'his' ...
Message:

[ the url to the new cyber caca ]
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:35:34 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: At your service
Subject: thank you [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 22:23:26 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Now he's picking on Bugs!
Message:
Ok, this is the last straw, Now he's picking on Bugs!
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:31:25 (EST)
From: My Name is Elmer J Fudd
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I Own a Mansion and a Yacht.. (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 13:55:31 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: My Name is Elmer J Fudd
Subject: Re: I Own a Mansion and a Yacht.. (nt)
Message:
'My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.'

This line was from Hare Brush (Freleng, 1955) in which the shrink gets Bugs to repeat this phrase endlessly.

Didn't Rawat mention this line before? I really think he identifies with Elmer Fudd.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 22:33:20 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: A Wabbit!!! Don't shoot!
Message:
Hey! I got it with a Mac using Netscape.

I actually have a t-shirt with Bugs on it that says 'Rebel without a carrot' ... I only wear it on special occasions. ;)

I hope you help out Sir Dave with his forum logo!

Annabanana, but I'll dig up some of my carrots on Saturday

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Date: Thurs, Nov 15, 2001 at 22:50:03 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: A pressing question on Rawat's mind
Message:
Where is he?
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Date: Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 01:31:23 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@cartoon_channel.com
To: G
Subject: doing dat parsnip vacation
Message:
such 24 carrot gwatitude:

see, bugs dat thilly wabbi [er, wabbit] and I take a lil vacation, and now - bingo - everbuddy's finely ketchin' on here -- dat dat dat fulfillment, dat dat dat life, dat feeling, da longing, dat massa blasta, dat massa baiter, dat maharajiavelli, dat 8th gwade pwivate scule educashun, dat mystical grammatical mantra 'within inside... within inside...within inside...within inside...within inside...within inside...'
dat dat dat --

eh, hey doc, when does dat massa finally say: 'dat's all, folks!'?
soon, I hope, thufferin' thuccotath!

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