Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Nov 17, 2001 To: Nov 23, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Sir Dave -:- Knowledge revealed in Sainsbury's -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 22:58:22 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Work up to 30 min, Wow!! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 00:26:46 (EST)
__ such -:- I got my copy used for 2 shillings! LOL [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:57:37 (EST)

Timmi -:- Jeeezzz -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 21:45:46 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: Jeeezzz -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:19:14 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Now that's Funny! OMG!! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:07:44 (EST)
__ such -:- too bad his atomic watch ain't plutonium [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:52:32 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Re: Jeeezzz -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 22:00:26 (EST)
__ __ such -:- wasted days and wasted nights -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:59:08 (EST)

G -:- Coercive Mind Control Tactics -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 19:58:52 (EST)
__ such -:- wow,like totally 'deja rugu' [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:43:09 (EST)
__ Inside Edition -:- Code of Ethics for Spritual Guides -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 21:03:42 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:-
-:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 21:05:59 (EST)
__ __ __ salam -:- Good link -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 08:42:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Check this out! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:53:16 (EST)

suchabanana -:- more revisionism [ot] -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 15:08:55 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Clever post Such [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:47:22 (EST)

Jim -:- What the HELL is this guy talking about? -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:47:21 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- This is just the sort of person -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:48:52 (EST)
__ busy bill--'the agony of incompleteness -:- A very dense darkness'--fruit of rawat [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:57:04 (EST)
__ Gail -:- Re: What the HELL is this guy talking about? -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 18:11:51 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Another Cult Checklist Example -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:53:23 (EST)
__ __ John Blood -:- It is very sad -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 01:38:11 (EST)

Jim -:- U 2 can have this experience (from ELK) -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:36:58 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Somebody needs an intervention -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:52:32 (EST)
__ gerry -:- Re: U 2 can have this experience (from ELK) -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:42:05 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- **********LOL!!************* [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:48:23 (EST)

NY Minute -:- M did event in Westchester yesterday -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:14:51 (EST)
__ Here's the address -:- Re: M did event in Westchester yesterday -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 21:50:26 (EST)
__ Dave C -:- Re: M did event in Westchester yesterday -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 20:11:57 (EST)
__ __ Francesca ~) -:- Yes there was an event -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 02:13:42 (EST)
__ __ Suedoula -:- Not a rumor -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:04:56 (EST)
__ __ xxx -:- It's not a rumor at all -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 22:20:56 (EST)
__ __ __ NY Minute -:- NY yesterday and Philly program tonite -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:21:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ busy bill -:- The crowd from NE will be smaller next time [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 06:00:28 (EST)
__ Gail -:- Re: M did event in Westchester yesterday -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 17:53:49 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Kiss the Screen...LOL! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:45:24 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Playing the small rooms these days -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:59:01 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Sounds like a fundraiser -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:34:02 (EST)
__ __ salsa -:- It always IS about $$$$ NT -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:03:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Reality Check -:- Re: It WAS always about $$$$, as well NT -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:35:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Reality Check -:- post is not NT -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:38:17 (EST)

Joe -:- Maharaji Cult Attack Websites -- Day 15 -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:14:24 (EST)
__ such -:- classic p.c. Maharajiavellian tactics! [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:50:22 (EST)
__ Inside Edition -:- Remember, Joe, -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 20:55:03 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: Maharaji Cult Attack Websites -- Day 15 -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 15:27:46 (EST)
__ __ Barbara -:- Re: Maharaji Cult Attack Websites -- Day 15 -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 15:58:11 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- My Interpretation -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:19:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca ~) -:- They sounding like CAC and the trolls -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 17:36:34 (EST)

Joe -:- Reprint by Request -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:59:01 (EST)

suchabanana -:- Please Consider This: -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:49:12 (EST)
__ John Blood -:- thanks~A fun read (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 01:49:01 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Excellent post, Such -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 18:23:35 (EST)
__ __ such -:- like,don't be attached... -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:10:15 (EST)

Vicki -:- Can Anyone Remember? -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:16:21 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Mid-eighties -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:09:19 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Slick? -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:54:16 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- Re: Can Anyone Remember? -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:09:03 (EST)
__ Yes, I think it woud be -:- the tour when he ... -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:45:56 (EST)
__ __ PatD -:- I saw him in Rome 96 ....... -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:25:39 (EST)
__ __ RichMandrake -:- Shri PieChartji -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:03:02 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Resist, one day at a time Rich! ;-) ntnt -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:39:08 (EST)

A concerned citizen -:- Has Hateonline gone? -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 06:47:57 (EST)
__ 411 -:- Re: Has Hateonline gone? -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:32:26 (EST)
__ __ G -:- Contact Netomia -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 19:33:05 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Please don't SPAM Netomia -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:19:01 (EST)
__ __ __ G -:- Netomia Terms of Service - VIOLATED -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 19:43:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- It's been done -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 19:51:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- maybe ... -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 22:06:30 (EST)
__ __ To Ulf? -:- Ulf?? -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:38:24 (EST)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- Perhaps. -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 17:16:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sorry, it was me. (nt) -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 17:18:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- It is gone now -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:42:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Thanks Ulf, and -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:28:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Ulf you are a genius!!!/thanks G, too -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:14:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ 411 -:- A Million Thanks, Ulf [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:47:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ A Concerned Citizen -:- Sorry, it was him -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 08:37:42 (EST)
__ Richard -:- No, still there -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:31:50 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- It is still there. [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:58:06 (EST)
__ Carl -:- Re: Has Hateonline gone? -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 08:12:32 (EST)

Suprised? -:- Your ethics -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 05:37:41 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Surprised is David Roupell -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 15:36:12 (EST)
__ __ SC -:- IDENTIFY THE COMPUTER YOU LYING SHIT -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 02:01:43 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- I'm a poor lonely fucker, Roupell -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 17:23:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- How much gerry? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 02:34:45 (EST)
__ __ __ not a fool -:- nice FRUIT you are -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 09:20:04 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks for permission to post your IP#s, Roupell -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 04:15:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Oops sorry, Roupell -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 04:40:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- ...dialup.optusnet.com.au -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:12:30 (EST)
__ G -:- it's 'surprised' not 'suprised' -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 10:12:01 (EST)
__ Patrick W -:- Re: Your ethics -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 06:27:36 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Honesty is a double edge sword -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:16:48 (EST)
__ __ know all -:- support for patrick, see my post below -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 08:02:49 (EST)
__ What about YOUR ethics... -:- David Roupell? Grow up. NT -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 06:15:42 (EST)
__ __ SC -:- NO Patrick it's not DR -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 08:21:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- What kind of an idiot are you, Roupell? -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:02:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- this kind Jimbo, this kind -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 02:09:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You miss the point entirely -- LOL -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:02:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Trick question, Jim :) [nt] -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:39:40 (EST)
__ __ __ so silly -:- slide...shhhhh -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 09:26:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ yes dear -:- keep popping them pills -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 09:37:59 (EST)
__ __ __ footnote..... -:- the above is to Patrick Conlong - not Wilson -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 09:05:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Don't accuse me, Roupell -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:22:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Ha ha ha ha }) -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 15:31:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- excuse me Mr Paranoid.... -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 02:16:43 (EST)

Barry -:- For Richard (ot) -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 21:47:09 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Re: For Richard (ot) -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 22:26:06 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- Ok, I'll try AG. -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:35:24 (EST)
__ Barry -:- Is Criss Dicky still a premie? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 22:03:51 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Is Criss Dicky still a premie??????????? -:- Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 22:12:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Barry -:- OK. thanks Deb.(nt) -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:36:40 (EST)


Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 22:58:22 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Knowledge revealed in Sainsbury's
Message:
From the book, ''Stress Relief'' which costs £2 or less in any branch of Sainsbury's. In the chapter, ""Meditation"":

Sit comfortably. Set a timer for ten minutes - eventually you can work up to thirty - and close your eyes. Let your thoughts subside and your breathing slow down.

BREATH FOCUS
Simply focus on the feel of the breath as it enters and leaves your nose.

So Maharaji owns the breath meditation? Give be a break!

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 00:26:46 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Work up to 30 min, Wow!!
Message:
Sit comfortably. Set a timer for ten minutes - eventually you can work up to thirty - and close your eyes. Let your thoughts subside
and your breathing slow down.

Comes complete with detailed instruction too, what a bargain ....

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:57:37 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I got my copy used for 2 shillings! LOL [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 21:45:46 (EST)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: Jeeezzz
Message:
''Even the most accurate watch can't tell you the correct time, because by the time you look at it, it's over.''

Somebody needs to tell rawat to shut up; his idiocy is showing.

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:19:14 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: Jeeezzz
Message:
For someone who can't tell time because he isn't fast enough, he certainly has a lot of watches.
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:07:44 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Now that's Funny! OMG!!
Message:
The one liners can really show someone what a nimrod he really is! What? Now he thinks he's a physicist?

But the thing is, some people buy this crap. I heard someone say once they thought he was a Genius!

I was talking with my husband the other day in the car. We were on the subject of M and all that. We disagree on certain aspects of the cult but I said to him something to the effect of , 'Well, whatever about Knowledge and Meditation but Lord of the Universe?' I could not stop laughing. Imagine, Lord of the Universe! I'm still chuckling.
M doesn't even know the first thing about Earth, let alone the Universe!

Your post surely made me laugh. Thanks.

Tonette

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:52:32 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: too bad his atomic watch ain't plutonium [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 22:00:26 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: Jeeezzz
Message:
Unfortunately, by the time that the rest of the premies take a look at Maha's inaccuracies, they're life will be over.

His idiocy is only apparent to those without cult eyes. Sad, but true.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:59:08 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: wasted days and wasted nights
Message:
too bad he was younger than us. if he had been your archetypal grandfatherly rugu, we could have at least been spared maybe 10-20 years of his inane bullshit, mind control, and worldly con games.
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 19:58:52 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Coercive Mind Control Tactics
Message:
See
Coercive Mind Control Tactics
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:43:09 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@Kandahar_ashram.satrugu
To: G
Subject: wow,like totally 'deja rugu' [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 21:03:42 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Code of Ethics for Spritual Guides
Message:
Also from G's above link is this little gem:

The Council on Spiritual Practices proposes the following Code of Ethics for those who serve as spiritual guides.

[Intention] Spiritual guides are to practice and serve in ways that cultivate awareness, empathy, and wisdom.

[Serving Society] Spiritual practices are to be designed and conducted in ways that respect the common good, with due regard for public safety, health, and order. Because the increased awareness gained from spiritual practices can catalyze desire for personal and social change, guides shall use special care to help direct the energies of those they serve, as well as their own, in responsible ways that reflect a loving regard for all life.

[Serving Individuals] Spiritual guides shall respect and seek to preserve the autonomy and dignity of each person. Participation in any primary religious practice must be voluntary and based on prior disclosure and consent given individually by each participant while in an ordinary state of consciousness. Disclosure shall include, at a minimum, discussion of any elements of the practice that could reasonably be seen as presenting physical or psychological risks. In particular, participants must be warned that primary religious experience can be difficult and dramatically transformative.

Guides shall make reasonable preparations to protect each participant's health and safety during spiritual practices and in the periods of vulnerability that may follow. Limits on the behaviors of participants and facilitators are to be made clear and agreed upon in advance of any session. Appropriate customs of confidentiality are to be established and honored.

[Competence] Spiritual guides shall assist with only those practices for which they are qualified by personal experience and by training or education.

[Integrity] Spiritual guides shall strive to be aware of how their own belief systems, values, needs, and limitations affect their work. During primary religious practices, participants may be especially open to suggestion, manipulation, and exploitation; therefore, guides pledge to protect participants and not to allow anyone to use that vulnerability in ways that harm participants or others.

[Quiet Presence] To help safeguard against the harmful consequences of personal and organizational ambition, spiritual communities are usually better allowed to grow through attraction rather than active promotion.

[Not for Profit] Spiritual practices are to be conducted in the spirit of service. Spiritual guides shall strive to accommodate participants without regard to their ability to pay or make donations.

[Tolerance] Spiritual guides shall practice openness and respect towards people whose beliefs are in apparent contradiction to their own.

[Peer Review] Each guide shall seek the counsel of other guides to help ensure the wholesomeness of his or her practices and shall offer counsel when there is need.

This draft for public comment was released 10 August 2001. The current version is available on the Internet at www.csp.org.

Copyright © 1995 - 2001 Council on Spiritual Practices

Box 460820
San Francisco, CA 94146-0820
USA

Permission is hereby given to reprint this Code, provided that the text is reproduced complete and verbatim, including the CSP contact information, copyright, and this notice of limited permission.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 21:05:59 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To:

Subject:

Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 08:42:29 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To:

Subject: Good link
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:53:16 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To:

Subject: Check this out!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 15:08:55 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@tonightshow_nbc.com
To: All
Subject: more revisionism [ot]
Message:
Family Tradition

The Smiths were very proud of their family tradition. Their ancestors had
come to America on the Mayflower, and the family included Senators and Wall
Street wizards. The family decided to compile a family history, a legacy for
their children and grandchildren. So the family hired a fine author to put
together their research notes. Only one problem arose - how to handle great-
uncle George, who was executed in the electric chair? The author said not to
worry, for he could handle the story tactfully. So the book appeared, and at
this point said . . .

'Great Uncle George occupied a chair of applied electronics at an important
Government institution. He was attached to his position by the strongest of
ties, and his death came as a great shock.'

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:47:22 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Clever post Such [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:47:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What the HELL is this guy talking about?
Message:
A thirst for clarity

Everyday I am shown the nature of clarity. The
enlightened clarity between and within every
object of the earth and beyond. The clarity that
is the invisible glue that makes all one and gives
completion. The clarity that makes this ball of
dirt paradise. Without this clarity, there would
be no beauty, no understanding, and no love in
life. There would only be a very dense darkness.

But to know this clarity, to feel this clarity, I
must find it within myself. Through the Knowledge
that Maharaji gives. I am given the opportunity to
experience this clarity. To see, feel, and to know
a oneness with paradise inside and out. Without
the experience of this conscious Knowledge of the
clarity within me, there is only the thought of
separation, difference, and the agony of
incompleteness. A very dense darkness.

Maharaji, with your pitcher of pure living
Knowledge, everyday, fill this vessel to
overflowing, leaving not a tinge of darkened void,
and I will drink of it throughout this day,
quenching my thirst, and being awake to see and
feel the truth of being.

Jim Sakshaug
Marblemount, USA

Nothing could be more confusing than screwing around like this with a perfectly fine, simple english word like 'clarity'. Poor Jim, running in circles trying to catch his Master's tale.

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:48:52 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is just the sort of person
Message:
My god, this is some weird shit but this person who wrote the 'poem?'; is about all that is left of the cult. I have seen a transformation in what is written at Enjoying Life or where ever it is you are capturing these poems. It's become more detached from reality, sick view of the world, confused and pleading. What exactly am I trying to say......the remnants of what is left from M's cult are psychotic!
I've read the stuff at Enjoying Life and Elan Vital off and on for 2 years. Some of it was nice but when looking at it recently, I was appalled at the flavor of what is posted here. Lots of talk about the 'darkness.' I don't see any darkness. Do you?
Yep, you can tell the number of the members of Elan Vital and the followers has dimished. This is the bottom of the barrel. The die hards. I'm paranoid right now, but this kind of stuff really gives me the creeps!
Just my take on it.

Sincerely, Tonette

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:57:04 (EST)
From: busy bill--'the agony of incompleteness
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A very dense darkness'--fruit of rawat [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 18:11:51 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What the HELL is this guy talking about?
Message:
Lord liftin'! This boy's marbles were mounted on a trophy and mailed to the Lard some time ago.
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:53:23 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Another Cult Checklist Example
Message:
Man, once you kind of look for the 'cult' characteristics, they are so obvious. The following is about the best example of a premie under the extreme mind control of being unable to envision a life outside the cult that is not hell, or in Jim Sakshaug's case, 'the agony of incompleteness.' Very sad to live with such fear.

To see, feel, and to know
a oneness with paradise inside and out. Without
the experience of this conscious Knowledge of the
clarity within me, there is only the thought of
separation, difference, and the agony of
incompleteness. A very dense darkness

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 01:38:11 (EST)
From: John Blood
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It is very sad
Message:
It is very, very sad to see someone struggling so desperately to find meaning in the nonsense spoken by Rawat. It is so sad that any of us sought to improve our lives by wasting even a moment of time listening to the absolute garbage that has issued from the mouth of Prem Rawat. A very ignorant man leading the even more desperately ignorant. It is so very disgusting.
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:36:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: U 2 can have this experience (from ELK)
Message:
Sober or drunk

I gladly remember my hardest times,
when without any reason my mind
would 'drive' me
from one side to another.
It was even 'throwing' me
suddenly down to the ground,
as though I was totally drunk,
although I didn't drink
alcohol at that time...
Now I know how to hold
on to my dear grateful heart,
how to connect to and experience
my deep conscious breath...
Now I know to value and appreciate it...
Only this makes me sober
even though here and there
I drink a glass of some of the sweetest wine...

Stojan Svet
Postojna, Slovenia

Sounds just great, Stojan. How can I join?

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:52:32 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Somebody needs an intervention
Message:
His mind threw him from side to side and then the ground. I think that's alcohol poisoning, not drunkeness. But he realized he wasn't drunk because he didn't drink at the time. Why? Was he only twelve yrs. old? NO. He was forbidden by a cult master.

But, even though he wasn't really drunk, he needs to hold on to his great dear heart to keep him sober. Whaaaa

And in his last line he confesses he's drinking the sweetest wine again.

No wonder he suffers such ugly hangovers. Hey Stojan, try wines with a Sweetness rating of '0' . The sweet wine should be sipped with dessert. Not when you're writing cult poetry.

Someone's been in a cult toooo long.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:42:05 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: U 2 can have this experience (from ELK)
Message:
Sounds like the final scene in Fight Club to me. These guys are really weird and getting weirder.
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:48:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: **********LOL!!************* [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:14:51 (EST)
From: NY Minute
Email: None
To: All
Subject: M did event in Westchester yesterday
Message:
No details about Westchester, but it seems odd to have two small events side-by-side.

Philadelphia area program tonite.
Word from an invitee is that it's going to be held at:
Drexelbrook Wedding and Catering facility in Drexel Hill, PA.
(directions at drexelbrookcatering.com).
There's an $85.00 donation requested per person.

Coming soon to a neighborhood catering facility near you:
The Speaker who used to be greater than god

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 21:50:26 (EST)
From: Here's the address
Email: None
To: NY Minute
Subject: Re: M did event in Westchester yesterday
Message:
http://www.drexelbrookcatering.com/corporate.htm
[ wedding facility ]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 20:11:57 (EST)
From: Dave C
Email: None
To: NY Minute
Subject: Re: M did event in Westchester yesterday
Message:
Just a bogus rumor, there are no events happening. M is not even on the East Coast.
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 02:13:42 (EST)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: Dave C
Subject: Yes there was an event
Message:
Not a bogus rumor. It already happened. A lot of premies probably missed it, due to short notice. They don't know how lucky they are!

--f

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:04:56 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Dave C
Subject: Not a rumor
Message:
Definitely not a rumor -- I know someone who went.
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 22:20:56 (EST)
From: xxx
Email: None
To: Dave C
Subject: It's not a rumor at all
Message:
Nov 19, 2001, 5-7 pm, Drexelbrook Wedding and Banquet Facility, Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania, only for pwikies from DC and Phily areas,
$85 for 'costs of the hall and other related expenses' cash or check payable to DVRG (Delaware Valley Resource Group).
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:21:07 (EST)
From: NY Minute
Email: None
To: xxx
Subject: NY yesterday and Philly program tonite
Message:
There was another event yesterday in Westchester County, NY
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 06:00:28 (EST)
From: busy bill
Email: None
To: NY Minute
Subject: The crowd from NE will be smaller next time [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 17:53:49 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: NY Minute
Subject: Re: M did event in Westchester yesterday
Message:
Drexel for the Drivel, eh! I remember when he filled the Miami Beach Convention Centre.

Speaking of Philedelphia, does anyone remember the MORE AND MORE LOVE FESTIVAL in September, 1978. The venue for that programme was huge--not some wedding chapel.

Gooooomeraji, now you are small.
You don't need a hall, my Lard.
Just drink your whitelightening and light a stogie.
Yes, you'll shine for us all, my Lard.
Like a flower blooming on satellite TV
I want to kiss the screen and send you your fee.

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:45:24 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Kiss the Screen...LOL!
Message:
Hi Gail,

I remember that Sept. 1978 festival very well--it was packed! In August of '78 we were having a northeast regional retreat with probably 500 hundred premies plus the usual special guests (initiators). Bill Patterson (if I remember correctly) or was it M himself?...did a phone hook-up and announced that program for Sept.

Golly gee, 500 hundred premies on the campus of Quinipiac College in Hamden, CT, staying overnight in the dorms.

Now the goob can't even get premies to come see HIM in person.

Maharaji must be frying.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:59:01 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: NY Minute
Subject: Playing the small rooms these days
Message:
I am sure EV will deny it, but must be getting harder to fill the main venues these days, just another sign of the dwindling numbers.
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:34:02 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: NY Minute
Subject: Sounds like a fundraiser
Message:
$85.00 per person is very steep if the event isn't for the purpose of raising money. I can't imagine that a 'Wedding and Catering Facility' is very expensive to rent. Probably a few hundred dollars, but if 1,000 show up, that's $85,000 for additions to the watch collection, or whatever. Sure is being secretive, isn't he?
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:03:40 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It always IS about $$$$ NT
Message:
hahaha
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:35:49 (EST)
From: Reality Check
Email: None
To: salsa
Subject: Re: It WAS always about $$$$, as well NT
Message:
But reality checks bounce in Maha's world. CULT donations pay the rent.

Hi Salsa

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:38:17 (EST)
From: Reality Check
Email: None
To: Reality Check
Subject: post is not NT
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:14:24 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji Cult Attack Websites -- Day 15
Message:
There still remains one website, out of the original seven, set up by the Maharaji cult against former members speaking out on the Internet at:

http://user.netomia.com/HaltOnLineAbuse/

What is different this time, from the CAC website attack in August, is that Elan Vital seems to be endorsing the attacks, probably because it is behind it, at least tacitly approving. Also, as John MacGregor says, if Maharaji didn't want those websites to be there they would be gone and the fact that they aren't gone indicates he approves of them as well. What effect this has on premies, and more importantly, the effect it has on potential aspirants only time will tell.

As we know, the distinction between "Elan Vital," "Maharaji," "PAMs", etc. is largely illusory.

The reason I say that I think Elan Vital is behind this website is because of the strange email I got from 'Elan Vital' when I complained about the websites and asked them to take action to bring them down.

Also, I sent a response email asking specifically if Maharaji or Elan Vital knows who is behind those websites and got no response. All the original email says is that "we" have no knowledge of who did it, but since the Email is unsigned, there is no explanation of who "we" is.

Like I said, this email is not signed, indicating that the person who wrote it on behalf of Elan Vital does not feel confident enough to do so, or is concerned about personal liability, nonetheless the email came from Elan Vital headquarters in Southern California from the email address to which I had sent my email: pr@elanvital.org.

Also, the email clearly agrees with the attack websites that EPO is a 'hate site' (which it obviously is not, and any sane person would see that immediately), equivalent to Neo-Nazi and Anti-Semitic sites. Also, as far as I know, this email is the first official recognition that EPO even exists, even if Elan Vital refers to it in hyperbolic language that is laughable. This is also a big change.

It is indeed peculiar that the true thinking of Elan Vital is finally coming out but in a rather bizarre way. I think Elan Vital is falling apart and perhaps this was some kind of last gasp. Not sure, but that's what it looks like. Here's the email again. The more I read it, the more remarkable it seems:

Dear Mr. Whalen:

We have received your letter dated November 6, 2001.

We are pleased that you appear to no longer wish to be associated with the defamatory and morally repugnant material associated with extreme
'anti-Maharaji' web sites, as it should not be surprising when gratuitous hate is recognized and identified for what it is.

As you are well aware, Maharaji, Elan Vital and the persons following Maharaji's teachings are the target of an ongoing, well-documented,
relentless campaign of vicious smear, misrepresentation, intimidation,
harassment and incitation to hate led by persons posting on ex-premie.org and other similar sites.

However, in spite of being the target of such campaign, Elan Vital
(which does not have a membership system) and Maharaji have chosen to
steadfastly refrain from reacting. Moreover, and most important, please
be advised we have no knowledge or information as to the identity or
location of the person(s) who may be responsible for the publication(s)
of which you complain. Any attempt to claim otherwise is plainly
unfounded, frivolous, meritless, and sanctionable.

Truly,

ELAN VITAL

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:50:22 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@caesare_borgia.it
To: Joe
Subject: classic p.c. Maharajiavellian tactics! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 20:55:03 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Remember, Joe,
Message:
English is not Jean-Marie's native language. That may help to explain why you received such a strange response from EV.
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 15:27:46 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji Cult Attack Websites -- Day 15
Message:
Hi Joe,

The first paragraph (one sentence) is poor writing but that's not my issue with it.

We are pleased that you appear to no longer wish to be associated with the defamatory and morally repugnant material associated with extreme'anti-Maharaji' web sites, as it should not be surprising when gratuitous hate is recognized and identified for what it is.

My rewrite:

'It should not be surprising when gratuitous hate is recognized and identified as such. We are pleased you no longer want to be part of EPO, Forum 7, and other extreme anti-Maharaji websites, which defame Maharaji and publish morally repugnant material about him.'

Isn't this 'writer' admitting something here? It's so weird, Joe...

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 15:58:11 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Maharaji Cult Attack Websites -- Day 15
Message:
I agree, Cynthia. I had to read that sentence several times to make out what on earth the writer was trying to say. Either the person is not particularly literate, or English is not his/her first language. Plus, was Joe saying he no longer wished to be part of EPO, F7 etc.?

Or was the writer, a la Mr. WC upstairs, using facetiousness as a mask for agression? The pwk's passive agression is becoming less passive, as we can see by these dissociative ad hominem ramblings, not to mention the overt agression of the CAC sites et al. where they indulge and project their hate on to exes, accusing the exes of the very thing they themselves are doing. The psyche's capacity for denial is close to infinite.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:19:52 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: My Interpretation
Message:
Right, the writing is pretty incoherent, but I think what this anonymous person was trying to do was to be sarcastic and say that since I was emailing Elan Vital complaining about 'hate sites' that Elan Vital's members had set up, that means that I condemn all 'hate sites' and since EPO is a 'hate site' I therefore do not want to be associateed with it anymore. Something close to that, I think, but it is difficult to tell for sure.

Yes, the whole email was agressive, and because it was 'official' that's of note. They have screwed up, and since they can't blame the problem -- Maharaji -- exes get to be the target.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 17:36:34 (EST)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: They sounding like CAC and the trolls
Message:
Joe,

Aren't these 'voices' we hear starting to get more and more 'synchronized'? CAC, the trolls, EV. Hard to tell 'em apart these days. They are outing themselves here. If the 'dish' is correct, and EV is getting more and more short staffed, they and 'he' will 'step in it' in a major way, eventually. It's only a matter of time, and no spin doctor is going to be able to prevent it.

M does seem to have a stable of professional spin doctors and organizational trainers on hand. They probably get more darshan than the instructors these days. (LOL)

The premies aren't going to care that Maharaji's liability is that he's short handed and it's going to get him in trouble. If this is the cult of selfishness (as in, I'm having a good experience so who cares what you say, and what your problem is), then most premies are only too glad to be the few, the proud and the crazy that are left on the ship. Their day in the sun has come.

Someone I know once said that it is probably some premies' fervent wish to have all the other premies go away -- then it will truly be them and their guru maharaji. Ah! The moment they have long waited for.

Bests,

F

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:59:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Reprint by Request
Message:
Since John MacGregor's latest revelations about how 'trainings' in the Maharaji cult operate, a couple of people have asked me to reprint this article I wrote on why Maharaji is the leader of a cult.

Actually, there are a few things in it that should be revised in the list of 'Mind Control Techniques' used in the cult. For one thing, the fear of criticizing Maharaji is even worse than I thought, and the information control (confidentiality/secrecy) in the cult is also much worse than I ever imagined.

Also, it appears Maharaji is willing to go to even greater lengths than a mere commandment to stifle doubts about him in his followers.

Finally, it appears that the facade of 'I make mistates' immediately followed by 'how dare you criticize Maharaji', is the reason we get seemingly rational people like Erika Andersen saying Maharaji 'makes mistakes' in the abstract but are unable to either be specific or criticize him, no matter how hard they try. Amazing phenomenon.

Yes, Maharaji Really is the Leader of a Cult

It’s pretty clear that people who are still devoted to Maharaji can get really upset when you say that Maharaji is leading a cult. They may even go to a lot of trouble to try to prove otherwise, as we have seen in recent months. First, Elan Vital addressed it in a big section of its website, which consists of a transparent self-serving attempt at throwing up and then destroying straw men of its own creation.

More recently, Erika Andersen and Mitch Ditkoff have written articles on this subject, and currently it’s the topic of the week on their website. [Note: That website is now down.} In his article, Mitch continues in the same vein as Elan Vital by attempting to explain why followers of Maharaji don’t meet certain aspects of a cult “definition.” [I’d like to request that if anyone can make any sense out of Mitch’s meanderings on this subject to please let me know.] Erika Andersen tries another angle. She presents a long expose about how “normal” her life is. Since neither mass marriages nor ritualistic abuse appears in her list of daily activities, Erika reassures us that she couldn’t possibly be in a cult.

Why is this such a big deal to them? Probably because cults have a pretty bad reputation in this society, what with Jonestown, the Moonies, Scientology, Heaven’s Gate, and the rest. It also looks bad for propagation purposes, and it’s embarrassing. When I was a follower of Maharaji, I would never, even for a minute, have thought I was in a cult. I would have considered it an insult if someone said I was.

Sure, I thought the Moonies were a cult, and the Hare Krishnas were a cult, but I and the other people following Maharaji, couldn’t possibly be a cult, could we? Of course not, I reasoned, because what Maharaji was offering was real, and I was just too smart ever to be in cult. Everything I did appeared to be of my free choice, and weren’t cults so weird that it would be obvious if you were in one?

Unfortunately, no. One of the characteristics of being in a cult is that you don’t think you are because a cult is all about protecting yourself from those kinds of thoughts. Many people, after they leave cults, discover that’s exactly what they were in, and they have spawned all kinds of “ex-cult” groups and websites like Ex-Premie.Org, and large organizations like CAN and AFF, whose members proclaim that they were once members of cults. [For record, both CAN and AFF have listed Elan Vital/Maharaji as a “cult.”]

The simple (and obvious) reason for this division is that once you discover you are in a cult, you are probably either already out of it, or on your way out. Hence, the divide between the current and former followers of Maharaji on the “cult” issue is quite wide and there is little common ground on the subject.

I have thought a lot about groups and cults, and I’ve read and studied a lot to try to understand better how I ever became a follower of Maharaji in the first place, and why I remained one for as long as I did. The purpose of this article is to explain, based on my own research and my own experience, why I say that Maharaji is, and always has been, the leader of a cult, and to try to boil it all down to the most basic level I can. I have tried to set aside the hyperbole.

Maharaji’s Followers Are Not Brainwashed

Let’s just get this out of the way quickly. “Brainwashing” implies unwilling indoctrination of alien principles and beliefs and Manchurian Candidate images of overt control techniques. Maharaji does not brainwash people and followers of Maharaji are not brainwashed.

So, If We Weren’t Brainwashed, Why Did We Join?

Like with any other cult, people become premies/PWKS because they see something they think they want. This might be friends, community, absolutes to live by, a way to “know one’s self,” a way to “experience the energy that is God,” a simple formula for life, happiness, etc. When I was first introduced to Maharaji and his followers, I saw premies as a loving group of people who seemed to be happy, and I wanted to be in their “family,” to share what I thought they had, and I thought I lacked. I wanted the promised experience of the peace inside of me. I wanted to be a part of bringing peace to the world, which Maharaji said he was doing.

I was told by premies and Maharaji that to get those things I wanted, the key was to “receive knowledge.” So, very early on, like literally within hours of my first “satsang,” I decided I wanted knowledge. At the same time, I also noticed lots of really weird, or at least illogical, stuff that seemed to go along with it, like worshipping this kid, feeling “devotion” (now “gratitude”) to this strange person, pranaming, feet-kissing, and the like. This set off “red flags” in my analytical thinking, and briefly caused me to question all I was being told. So, I now had an internal dilemma. How could I deal with the major problem for me, which was that this “Maharaji” and dedication to him, came along with the premies and the “knowledge” that I wanted so badly?

Followers of Maharaji Are Not Coerced; They Are Cooperators in Their Own Programming

Many people resolve this dilemma by dropping out of the process. They split. They are part of the vast majority of people who hear about Maharaji, maybe even come to some introductory event, and never follow through. They aren’t hooked. It doesn’t take. But another way to resolve it is for the individual to follow the directives of the cult and suspend normal critical judgment in this area, in order to obtain the “carrot” representing the fulfillment desired, in this case to get “knowledge.” In this way, the individual engages in cooperation with what the cult is telling them. Unfortunately for me, that’s what I did.

Cult researchers will tell you that because this process involves mutual and willing cooperation, and the individual views all decisions as their own, it is a more binding form of “mind control” than other forms, and harder to undo, because of the illusion that it was all just a personal choice. Indeed, I wanted to believe it. It fulfilled a “need,” and it was “my decision.” In fact, the strongest, most enduring, and most insidious, programming in the Maharaji cult goes on before the individual even receives knowledge, at this very juncture.

I can still remember the feelings and the process from my own experience. I wanted to receive knowledge. So, I did what they said I had to do; I listened to premies and Maharaji talk about it and sing songs about it. This was before video, but during the days of satsang every single night. I also watched movies about it, read articles about it, and I traveled across the country and saw Maharaji speak twice before I received knowledge. In this process “aspirants” like me, are told by Maharaji that one has to be “ready” to receive knowledge and yet there is no test or measure of what “ready” means, just that one has to have “that understanding” to “have no more doubts,” to “get rid of all pre-conceived ideas about Maharaji and knowledge,” and “be open.”

So, left with no clear guidelines and completely ambiguous instructions, most people are going to take this the way I did, that it means stripping away value judgments and restraining all doubts or critical analysis of anything that was happening in connection with Maharaji or knowledge. To fail to do that was to not be “open” or it was evidence that the impediments of doubt were still there, and therefore you wouldn’t get what you wanted, to receive knowledge.

So, I pushed all the sincerity buttons I had; I tried not to think critically or negatively about Maharaji. I tried to be open by not letting “my mind” criticize or analyze any of this process. What was the point, anyway? I was told that I wouldn’t really be able to judge any of it until I received knowledge and that knowledge was something that couldn’t be explained in words.

At some critical point in this period, I crossed over into the world of “cult.” I did this by deciding that I wanted knowledge so much that I would ignore much of my critical/analytical faculties, and even my own “gut feelings.” This was the beginning of my practicing of cult mind control which consists mainly of learning to shut down the critical part of my thinking when it came to Maharaji and knowledge. Amazingly, that process, that repressive mechanism, continued for almost 10 years thereafter, getting ever more efficient as I practiced it. So efficient in fact, that for many years I had no conscious awareness that I was even doing it.

Then began the exercises in traumatic humiliation known as “knowledge selections.” Twice I sat in the “selection” process and wasn’t selected by the Instructor. I watched, increasingly heartbroken and desperate, as those who were selected seemed ecstatic and privileged. I wanted to be like them. And I wanted to be happy like the premies, who had by this time become my friends and they were rooting for me to receive knowledge. Having been rejected, I re-doubled my efforts to “be ready” and “be open.” Any critical thought was immediately discarded. I even started singing the praises of Maharaji and knowledge. I had become not only “open,” I had become dedicated.

Finally, after cutting my university classes, and taking a bus 350 miles, I was in yet another “selection” for knowledge. By this point my critical thinking became just irrelevant background noise. I was even “praying” to Maharaji, who was by now a kind of an imaginary friend to me, to please give me knowledge and let me be his devotee. By the time I was selected to receive knowledge, I couldn’t even imagine doubting anything about Maharaji or knowledge, or even looking at any of it objectively in any way approaching how I looked at anything else. But if you would have asked, I would have told you that all of this was happening by my free will, by my free choice.

I was so far gone that by this point I was even willing to say that I devoted my life to Maharaji (then Guru Maharaj Ji), when the Instructor asked that I do so. Amazing. Here I was, a guy at the top of my university class, a guy who was a confirmed anti-authoritarian, a semi-Marxist, a guy who had left the Catholic Church because it was too paternalistic, devoting my life to a human being, who claimed to be another Jesus Christ, somebody I had never met and knew virtually nothing about. Yes, it could even happen to me, and it did. And if it could happen to me, it could happen to anybody.

So, I received knowledge, and let’s just say that the experience did not blow my socks off. It was actually somewhat disappointing. But by that time, I no longer had much capacity to evaluate anything about Maharaji. But it felt okay because now I belonged, and the premies held a “birthday party” for us, and it was all kind of nice, and I was a new baby. Give it time, I thought. Don’t doubt, don’t judge, just be open and give it a chance, Maharaji and the premies told me. I wasn't even conscious of the fact that I had given that up my critical thinking. Like I said, it was almost 10 years before that changed.

Okay, so what was I now a part of? I was now part of the Maharaji cult. It is and was a cult, that fits the definition Mitch Ditkoff uses in his article:

1. A group claiming to have “the answer” as the “only way” to peace and happiness;
2. A leader to whom “excessive dedication” occurs; and
3. The use of “mind control techniques.”

I’m sure even Mitch agrees that Maharaji claimed that he had the one experience of “peace and happiness” and that he was the only person on the planet offering it. I’m sure he would also agree that “excessive devotion” has been expressed to Maharaji, including just a few months ago, when his followers, once again, lined up to kiss his feet. But what about the “mind control?” How did that manifest after I received knowledge and was a full-fledged follower of Maharaji?

“Mind Control” (Better Known as: Discouragement of Doubt) in the Maharaji Cult

Although “mind control” is a heavy term, there is nothing magical or strange about how it manifests in cults. It's pretty basic stuff. But what do I really mean by it when it comes to the Maharaji cult? Well, in addition to the process I already described, the following eight examples are characteristics of the cult that caused me and others to limit our thoughts – to engage in “mind control.” These are all “Mind Control Techniques” described in general terms in the literature and research on cults. They should be easily recognizable to anyone who has been a follower of Maharaji:

1. The Commandment Against Doubting. Cults almost always forbid or discourage their members from doubting anything about the Cult, and especially the Cult Leader. Maharaji was especially explicit about this. For many years, Maharaji had a “Commandment” that his followers were supposed to follow, which was to “Never Leave Room for Doubt in Your Mind.” I know he doesn’t have “commandments” anymore, but I think the principle is still there, and I read a transcript of Maharaji speaking in Argentina in which he again lambasted “doubts” as a detriment to your “experience.” I know that some PWKs say that the commandment actually meant something else, but I find the explanations absurd. It says what it says. Moreover, in my experience, doubts in the Maharaji cult were always discouraged, with or without the existence of Maharaji’s “commandment.”

So, after you receive knowledge, after the repression of your thoughts that it took to get to that point, Maharaji gives you a commandment that says you aren’t supposed to doubt and that doubting interferes with the “experience.” Obviously, this makes it nearly impossible to look at knowledge or Maharaji objectively.

2. No Critical Question about the Leader or His Teaching is Legitimate. One of the true tests of whether someone is in a cult is whether he or she can criticize the Cult Leader. It’s nearly impossible, indeed is impossible, to get a one of Maharaji’s followers to do it. Of course, they will say there is nothing to criticize, because cult thinking will not allow those critiques, those “doubts” to enter, and if they do, they are immediately repressed. It causes a cult member great discomfort to think of questioning or criticizing the Cult Leader and if they have such thoughts, they would NEVER say it publicly. This is because the Maharaji cult is really a personality cult, although it retains some “Eastern spiritual cult” overtones. Obviously, if you attack the “personality” what do you have left? Some PWKs can bring themselves to criticize Elan Vital, and various leaders of that and other related organizations. I did the same thing towards the end of my involvement. But mostly, I just blamed myself for even having any doubts in the first place.

Once you are out of the cult, believe me, you will have no problem criticizing Maharaji. All the critical things you have thought about him, about his “efforts” as master, or about knowledge, or about your experiences as one of his followers, all of which have been repressed, will come out like a raging river, and it feels wonderful.

3. Criticism of the Cult and Especially the Cult Leader, in any Form, is Seen as Lack of “Understanding,' or 'Confusion.' In my experience, if you express criticism of Maharaji, or any of his decisions, or Knowledge, or anything related, you get the cold shoulder by his followers and his organization and will be considered “confused” or not “synchronized.” It’s group pressure, really. And if you do so, you can usually forget about moving up in the organization, getting close to the Lotus Feet, getting a good seat at a program, being invited to “the residence,” or getting a good “participation opportunity.”

If you do it too much, you might even be categorized as a “bongo.” Try sitting in your next “participation meeting” and say some negative stuff about Maharaji or what he’s doing. See how open and tolerant your fellow followers are to such statements. It’s unlikely they will encourage you to air your opinions and vigorously discuss your “negative” views. [By the way, being labeled “negative” is about the worst thing that can happen to you in the Maharaji cult and this is yet another form of mind control.]

4. Threats of Dire Calamity if They Abandon Knowledge/Maharaji. I could go into the “tons of rotten vegetables” and other things Maharaji said as threats of what would happen if people abandoned the cult, but that isn’t really necessary. Basically, this is internalized in most PWKs, such that they cannot imagine, and fear, what their lives would be like if they left Maharaji. Since Maharaji has been portrayed as being exclusive in his “perfect master” position, PWKs fear there is no place else to go. This is basically phobia indoctrination. It’s the irrational fear of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. Basically, the PWKs (and this was also true for me), cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being a follower of Maharaji, and Maharaji reinforces this in just about everything he says.

Incredibly, as a premie, I described this psychological dependence on Maharaji or at least my image of Maharaji and the fear I had of rejection by him, as my “love for Maharaji,” despite the fact that I never even met the guy. Obviously, this is about as far from “love” as you can get. Also, somehow, if I said I “loved” Maharaji, it gave me some comfort that is was less likely I would ever unconsciously reject him, or that he would reject me.

5. There is Never A Legitimate Reason to Leave/Shunning Those Who Leave. It’s difficult for a follower of Maharaji to see how someone can legitimately leave “that place” and not be miserable. Ex-premies have heard it all, and I thought much the same when people left the cult when I was still a member. People who leave are labeled as “confused,” “lacking the proper understanding,” having gotten into the cult for “the wrong reasons,” wanting a “Hindu spiritual trip,” “undisciplined,” “never having practiced knowledge,” “negative,” or seduced by money, sex, rock and roll. You name it. We have heard it all. Just check out Pia Grunbaum’s and Charles Glasser’s websites, if you want to see it in print. And as for being shunned, how many of us lost our premie “friends” when we left? Now that some of us are notorious ex-premies speaking out on the Internet, that “shunning” has evolved into open hostility. It even extends to attack websites, like those of CAC, Charles Glasser and Pia Grunbaum. “Please Consider This” is just a lot more diplomatic on that score, but is essentially and attempt at the same endeavor.

6. The Cult Leader and the Cult Make Followers Feel that Any Problems Are Their Own Fault and Never Maharaji’s. This, in my opinion, is the essence of the Maharaji cult. The axiom is this: All that is good is due to Maharaji, or at least ultimately due to him, while all that is bad is due to the PWK, because of the PWK’s lack of understanding, always getting distracted, or “forgetting that place,” his or her own confusion, etc.

If you want to see examples of this, just read the Maharaji cult websites, and see how the writers thereon engage in logical gymnastics to keep from ever blaming Maharaji for anything that ever happened, but are quite willing to place responsibility on themselves or Maharaji’s other followers.

7. Information is Not Freely Accessible/Information Varies at Different Levels/Leadership Decides Who “Needs to Know” What. Elan Vital and Maharaji are notoriously secretive. Very little is disclosed, even to members. And of course, we all know how secretive Maharaji has been about his personal life, with people being “x-rated” in order to be around him. And even PWKs complain of the paranoid secrecy within Elan Vital and Maharaji’s organization. This kind of information control, especially when it involves information damaging to the perceptions of Maharaji and knowledge, is very important in the Maharaji cult, and always has been. This is partly why EPO is seen as such a threat, because it exposes information the cult is trying to keep secret, and information is empowering to people, and even encourages them to look critically at things they accepted as truth in the past.

8. Lots of “Loaded Language” (AKA Thought-Terminating Clichés). These are basically terms that have normal meanings to most people, but to people in the Maharaji cult, they have loaded meanings, that evoke an instantaneous “understanding” such that no further thought about what is being said is necessary. Just to name a few: mind, heart, knowledge, breath (that’s a big one these days), that love, that peace, that experience, that gift (really lots of words with “that” in front of them to convey special meaning), understanding, thirst, negativity, doubt, participation, gratitude, and my personal favorite, “synchronization.” Maharaji can use these words peppered throughout his speech and end up really saying nothing, but sounding profound, with appropriate nods from his followers.

So, by the time I walked out of the knowledge session, and became an official follower of Maharaji, I was already crippled in my ability to judge what was going on with me in relation to the cult and Maharaji. Then, Maharaji’s commandments and teachings, and the culture of the cult itself, discouraged critical analysis, and encouraged its continued repression. These are examples of how “mind control” works.

After a very short time, I was on automatic. I automatically engaged in self-censorship of my thoughts, almost all the time after that. It didn’t really matter the particular rituals or living situations I encountered in the cult, the real cult was by then existing largely between my ears, reinforced by the mind control mechanisms described above, and others as well. Sure, occasionally some doubts still got through, but they were pretty easily disposed of, perhaps by some extra meditation, or perhaps by getting a “group high” from an “event.” I want to emphasize that in other areas, on subjects unrelated to Maharaji and knowledge, I remained pretty much a normal, functioning person, to the extent I could be.

It wasn’t until I got out of the cult, and started to unwind that whole process, that I even realized that yes, I really was engaging in that process almost the whole time. When that happened, it was exhilarating. It was like I could finally breathe again, after I had somehow forgotten for a very long period of time.

Joe Whalen

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:49:12 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@freeatlast.dem/ocracy
To: All
Subject: Please Consider This:
Message:
ALL THE RUGU'S MEN: by Woody and Burntstein
[channeled from DeepPhlegm]

Near the beginning of the play Hamlet, Shakespeare establishes the foundation for the plot -- where all the world's a stage -- by stating that 'something is rotten in the state of Denmark.'

Similarly, in the lil drama outlined on the extensive pages of ex-premie.org, numerous informed persons have outlined what is dreadfully rotten in the state of Premmark -- the mark of da Prem beast.

I pose this question: if Prem Rawrat aka maha were a legit, honourable, and altruistic meditation instructor [as he pretends to be], then why on earth would maha need the false front of spin doctors, cyber stalkers, hackers, apologists, assassins, smugglers, document shredders, and phony shell corporations with bogus bored directors to do his dirty work for him?

The fact remains: if maha were actually on the level, he would never need such public relations spin doctors reinventing and fabricating his image -- like some corrupt and evil politician or corporation.

But once a person has become a devotee of that path of 'cheat and deceit', that web becomes ever more tangled, the lies more outrageous, and the means and tools more insidious.

It certainly doesn't take a rocket scientist to read between the lines; the cast of top cult insiders who have turned against miragey reads like All the President's Men [or a law firm] : Mishler, Dettmers, Donner, and Kahn, and Associates.

Why does maha have to keep shuffling the players around him? Because sooner or later some people are going to wise up about what is really happening, and what maha is directing them to do.

We have the testimony of the former president of the organization, maha's personal manager, treasurer, instructors, et al who have pulled the blinders off their eyes.

Are these people simply disaffected, jealous persons? No, they left maha of their own accord because of the contradictions, the many abuses of maha and his cult, the colossal money diversions, the many personal hypocrisies they witnessed, and for many other valid reasons.

Now maha has retained yet another spin doctor Jean-Marie B. [John-Mary, kind of schizo or kinky name, huh? haha], and he has once again pulled the p.r. material and FAQs from his org's website, as he and his cult henchmen reinvent themselves yet once again. Reminds one of Hitler purging Strasser in the Night of the Long Knives, or Nixon near the end of his rope. You know, Nixon subscribed to the view that if you tell a lie boldly and often enough, in the face of criticism or even investigation, that it will be so outrageous, that people will actually believe it.

But NO, not even Joseph Goebbels himself rising from the flames of hell can save Prem's mirage now. The facade has irrevocably slipped; the emperor has no clothes, the Wizard of Oz is a fraud, the pope is not infallible, the fearless leader is crooked.

If this were not such a tragedy for those poor victims affected by this tax-sheltered cult-church, it would indeed be funny. And, definitely, this is a Divine Comedy of sorts -- although in the 7th circle of this deluded fool's hell, I see the faces of many people who have suffered their own private hells anonymously -- directly through the fault of Prem Rawrat and the institution of his idolatrous personality cult, too.

To those in the cult who might still be ardent defenders of the faith, or possibly wavering, I say unto you: please consider this: If the facts which the ex-premies have been documenting and attesting were indeed false, don't you realise that these websites would already have been shut down, and the persons responsible made to pay millions of dollars in damages for slander, defamation, and libel? For your information, maha has already tried that tactic via his attorneys. But that scheme did not work. Why? Because the Truth is NOT slander, defamation, or libel.

So, wake up and smell the coffee. After vomiting up the cult poisons and exorcising the demons of guru's jism and ladudoos, we have a toothbrush and toothpaste here for you to freshen your breath, and some good expresso mocha latte (or chai, if you prefer).

For, sooner or later, the gig's gonna be up for this thief. Yes, he came as a thief in the night, from East to West, just like the bubonic plague. We have vaccine here for those so infected, too. Come, and we will share the company of truth. And the Truth shall set you Free! Slavery is dead, feudal gurujism - as exemplified by the Rawrat clan - is a medieval Indian scam and greedy, unscrupulous, worldly power trip that ensnares the minds and hearts of unsuspecting and sincere guileless persons. Come here with an open mind -- and the ex-premies will be happy to assist you. No one is paying these people; they are all volunteers. Remember: they were once walking in shoes like yours, wearing cult blinders over their eyes, too, once upon a time [and some recently].

And do you know that the same Creator who has given us a heart has also given us a wonderful brain, fashioned from the image of that same immaculate Creator. Use that brain -- save what is left of your life now. Use your intelligence and the powers of discernment. We are not here to lie to you. Nobody is fencing us the stolen goods of Malibu mansions, jets, yachts, Rolls Royces, and mistresses, drugs, adulation, or obsequious slave labor for doing this simple service.

No, we are doing this humble and necessary service from the bottom of our hearts -- for the sake of others so affected, whether they realise it now, or not.

So, I say to you premies, aspirants, and your families -- something is rotten in the state of Premmark. We are Not Those rotten veges. By his fruits shall ye know him -- Fakiranand, Jagdeo, Seva Intl., etc. etc. No, Those rotten vegetables belong to Prem Rawrat. The buck [and bucks] stop with miragey himself.

Peace and lentils,

da lil swami

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 01:49:01 (EST)
From: John Blood
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: thanks~A fun read (nt)
Message:
no text
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 18:23:35 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Excellent post, Such
Message:
I've been wondering why it's bothered me that m would resort to outside PR help and this definitely helped me understand.

Another thing I've been thinking about is how, when under the spell for three decades, we weren't supposed to be involved with anything other than knowledge. If it was our job, then get the paycheck but don't get attached. If it was anything at all, from school to family to dreams and hopes, it was always don't get involved, don't get attached. And along with that went the implicit understanding that people of this world didn't really understand reality, therefore their usefulness was very limited in scope, be it psycologist, physician, teacher, parent, anything and everything. The be all and end all authority was/is Maharaji. We weren't supposed to be attached to material things in the slightest, from clothes to cars. Only he was allowed because he was above such things......yet it seems his family is allowed. And the rich pwk's were, but we didn't know that.

Then we find out who's been sitting in the front of the hall all these years and what kind of cars his kids drive. So while we were surrenduring and relying on grace all these years, he was relying on consulting firms and people with big bank accounts.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:10:15 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@merrill_lynch.com
To: Vicki
Subject: like,don't be attached...
Message:
to anything in this material world -- except to him, Him, HIM, by his grace. Everything else is maya, the illusion. And keep those monthly donations flowing - and increasing. A career? Schmeer, forget about it! The Only reason to have a job is to give to m., serve his mission, and go from festival to festival. Hey, you're backsliding, premieji. You need some strong satsang. Never leave room for doubt. front-row seats? Oh, that's for the inner circle of enlightened saints, of course -- well, yes, they do contribute a lot of money, but... Like, don't get in your mind about it, sistah. Stay on Holy Name - or Do Nectar, fer cryin out lard. It's all lila, his divine play. He is such a father to all of us. LOL

Reminiscing: Oh, I just got a hefty offer to be the guitarist in Boz Scaggs' band, and Lido Shuffle and Harbor Lights have gone platinum this week; gee, I sure could use the money, and that would be great professionally, but nah -- that's just more maya and ego, after all. And I would just probably get into lots of partying, hot babes, and driving expensive cars. No, I just won't return Boz' calls, and I'll just keep my rainbow lawn mowing job and my room in the premie house, so I can go to satsang every evening - like a good devotee should. Wouldn't want to give into any temptation, y'know.

Gee, Guru Maharaj ji must be above all that; he has everything in this material world, yet he is SO pure and unattached to it. Bolie shri.... [pranaming on the floor to his picture in the living room on the chair nobody is ever allowed to sit in -- just in case he happens to jet in on a Monday night in Cambridge on his way back to New York to see his Patek Philippe jeweler or the Rolls Royce dealer].

Oops, it's time for arti again... Twam eva mata... [I am so unworthy, and Maharaji is so pure...] ... attachments will never give you Knowledge of the soul, will never reveal the goal... [oh, I feel so terrible; I only meditated 2 hours today] ... save us from the Ocean deep, jai dev... [please save me from carnal thoughts and worldly desires]... jai guru dev... [just look at him; what a saint mahatma jagdeo must be]... wherever I look, your face is before me [gee, I really should put a new photo of Maharaji on the dashboard of our VW]... I bow before such a wonderful lord... [Oh, I am so unworthy; please make me pure, humble, and selfless...]

Narrator: lost in the spiritual ozone of a distant primitive planet, devotees grovel and scrape, sacrificing all of their sheckels, comforts, goals and life's dreams -- all for the sake of service and worship to the living Perfect Master, Master of Perfection, Born lord God of the Yogis, Living incarnate Lord of the Universe, Shri Sant ji Maharaj, pure like a lotus floating above the muck of the material world -- in the Twilight Zone.

btdt!

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:16:21 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Can Anyone Remember?
Message:
When the new age was ushered in with M? I'm talking about the slick, more corporate stuff, with the workshops and trainings, etc. Was it in the mid 90's during the tours where he stood instead of sat on stage?
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:09:19 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Mid-eighties
Message:
I was around at that time and was involved. The International Instructors' Conference I attended for three days in Oxnard, Ca was a The Emperor's (something like that). We all had suites complete w/sitting rooms. Fancy dinners including drinks and a slick conference format. Maha spoke like a tycoon. And he was teaching the instructers how to think that power leaders and used a lot of slick colloquialisms. This was not so new to PAMS but it was very new to the Instructors at the time.

deb

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:54:16 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Slick?
Message:
Hi Vicki,

New ages are ushered in with great regularity in the cult. The moment is always hailed with something like, 'And now the Captain has really sorted everything out.' I won't try and make an exhaustive list, but here are a few of those golden moments:

When mahatmas started wearing suits. End of the Indian age.

When the Captain got married.

When he formed DUO.

When he formed WWA.

When he closed the ashrams.

When he made Western mahatmas.

When he introduced workshops alongside satsang.

When he told premies to to stop telling people about knowledge and bring them to videos.

When he did certain types of knowledge review.

And more recently, of course, the stuff you mention.

Anyway, it's not slick and corporate at all.

Printing stuff on expensive glossy paper doesn't make something slick. The content is always quite ridiculous. At best it reads like very poor Christian evangelism. At worst, a fucked up cult.

Don't be fooled by the packaging. Even the most inane corporate stuff at least has some content.

Take the videos for example. They are total, utter, complete shite.

The publications are embarassingly bad.

And the junk they sell at programmes. Ugh. Pass the barf bag. Did you know the salesfolk have to wear white blouses and shirts, black keks or skirts to sell it.

Anyway, gorra go.

Anth, oh no, not another fucking golden new beginning.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:09:03 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Can Anyone Remember?
Message:
It started in 83 when the ashrams were closed when darshan and dancing were sidelined
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:45:56 (EST)
From: Yes, I think it woud be
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: the tour when he ...
Message:
used his Mac and showed us pie charts and bar graphs of his flight miles the previous year, the amount of lentils eaten at some event, etc.

Everyone was doing the ooh, aah about it but I secretly found it boring.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:25:39 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Yes, I think it woud be
Subject: I saw him in Rome 96 .......
Message:
....doing that. I was just starting to get to grips with computers myself at that time & realised that he'd made a mistake with something or other, the same as one I'd been unable to work out. I took this as proof of his endearing human side. What a sap!

How long before that had he been hocking this mouldy old stage prop around,& what contempt for his audience does that show ?

Seems like it could have been years. I know that memory is one of the things that gets trashed,when one is over exposed to the light brighter than a million suns,in its human form.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:03:02 (EST)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: Yes, I think it woud be
Subject: Shri PieChartji
Message:
Yes I found it Very boring as well...and insipid. Maharaji really came off as a not very interesting or even charismatic guy. But back then anything that didnt confirm his exalted status as the 'Perfect One' was thrown into the trashbasket of Mr. Mind. I do think it would have been way cool if he would have come on stage with a flask of Cognac and smoking a Marlboro and did his act. At Least the novelty would have been entertaining for a bit...(as I resist my compulsion to push down the cap key)
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:39:08 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Resist, one day at a time Rich! ;-) ntnt
Message:
agfp
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 06:47:57 (EST)
From: A concerned citizen
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Has Hateonline gone?
Message:
tried to visit the site but can't get in. Anybody has luck.
[ The evil site with the evil doers. ]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:32:26 (EST)
From: 411
Email: None
To: A concerned citizen
Subject: Re: Has Hateonline gone?
Message:
Here is the info on netomia.com:

Martin Pedersen (template COCO-85431)
martin@digihosting.com
Sportsvej 30c
Bryrup, Denmark 8654 DK

Domain Name: netomia.com
Status: production

Admin Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
Martin Pedersen (COCO-85431) martin@digihosting.com
+45 75757417

CORE Registrar: CORE-11

Record created: 2000-01-02 00:38:17 UTC by CORE-11
Record expires: 2002-01-01 00:00:00 UTC

Domain servers in listed order:

ns.digihosting.com
ns2.rackspace.com

Database last updated on 2001-11-19 17:54:49 UTC

The previous information has been obtained either directly from the
registrant or a registrar of the domain name other than Network Solutions. Network Solutions, therefore, does not guarantee its accuracy or completeness.

I would suggest lodging a complaint to Martin Pedersen at

martin@digihosting.com or +45 75757417 in Denmark

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 19:33:05 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: 411
Subject: Contact Netomia
Message:
Click below to
contact Netomia
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:19:01 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Please don't SPAM Netomia
Message:
Many of us listed have pointed out to Netomia that Halt Online contradicts their Terms of Use. We await word from these fine folks. Meaqnwhile, please don't SPAM them and prove Halt Online to be true.

Richard channeling Ghandi

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 19:43:08 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Netomia Terms of Service - VIOLATED
Message:
The Netomia Terms of Services are clearly violated by the attack site. Please, contact Netomia and complain.

Netomia Terms of Service:

. Your website may not contain ... anything encouraging any kind of illegal activities or racism. ...

. You may not use your website in connection with sending out spam or any kind of harassment.

. Netomia reclaims the right to remove any account, without any reason given, if it is suspected to inflict harm in any way.
...

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 19:51:44 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: It's been done
Message:
Numerous times by several of us and no response, unlike the other servers who immediately dropped the attack sites.
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 22:06:30 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: maybe ...
Message:
you could try contacting Netomia's web hosts (www.digihosting.com and www.rackspace.com, see above) and their advertisers (like www.lol.st, which has a banner on that web site).
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:38:24 (EST)
From: To Ulf?
Email: None
To: 411
Subject: Ulf??
Message:
Can you call this Martin Pedersen person at +45 7575417 and see if you can complain about that website? A number of us have sent emails to both Netomia and Pedersen and they don't reply. Since you speak Danish, maybe you can take care of it for us.

Basically, just tell them that a libelous and defamatory website is on his server (give him the URL) that criminally attacks people who are ex-members of a cult and that the cult members set up this website to attack them, just like Scientology and other cults have done.

I would really appreciate it.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 17:16:02 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: To Ulf
Subject: Perhaps.
Message:
Who is asking ?
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 17:18:17 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Sorry, it was me. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:42:59 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It is gone now
Message:
Just talked to the host , he was not a cultmember, and he took it away
No problem he was very nice talking to

The person who made the site used the name General Maximal

Best Ulf

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:28:21 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Ulf
Subject: Thanks Ulf, and
Message:
Could you email me about this?

Thanks for calling the guy.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:14:38 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Ulf you are a genius!!!/thanks G, too
Message:
Thanks so much. I thought they would remove that hate site if we could get their attention. Sometimes it takes a personal touch. Well done, Ulf and thank you. And thanks to G for coming up with the phone number in Denmark!

Joe Whalen

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:47:35 (EST)
From: 411
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: A Million Thanks, Ulf [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 08:37:42 (EST)
From: A Concerned Citizen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sorry, it was him
Message:
Is it possible that the isp of the evil site with the evil doers doesn't speak English which is why he/she has no idea what the e-mails mean. Maybe ULF can write a letter in Danish as you suggested. All the in:)cent s:)uls that have been attacked so visciously by the evil doers can sign it. Only an idea.
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:31:50 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: A concerned citizen
Subject: No, still there
Message:
Thanks for the alert ACC. The HOLHA site was down for awhile but apparently it was just temporary.

The zealot(s) behind HOLHA are chicken-shit as they hide in anonymity and say nothing to dispute one word of EPO. Eventually the folks in charge of Netomia will see that they are hosting an intimidation and harrassment site and do the right thing.

Richard

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:58:06 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: It is still there. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 08:12:32 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: A concerned citizen
Subject: Re: Has Hateonline gone?
Message:
Just tried it, and it came up for me.

Speaking about EPO, they say 'This site is rated as one of the most obsessively hateful sites on the internet.' Oh really? And who is doing the rating, one wonders.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 05:37:41 (EST)
From: Suprised?
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Your ethics
Message:
Jesiopus ot stinlkds in jhere/l’.
Maharaji was right.
The further away you get from Knowledge, the more it stinks.
The Radhasami story is a joke.
Two years of false witness.
How many gullible fools did you betray?
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 15:36:12 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Suprised?
Subject: Surprised is David Roupell
Message:
Should I post his IP# for you terrfic amateur sleuths and IT pros?
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 02:01:43 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: IDENTIFY THE COMPUTER YOU LYING SHIT
Message:
yea, very funny powerman

cheap thrills flea trying to bug the elephant?

In case you had noticed I write my posts in PLAIN ENGLISH and never resorst to ambiguous twaddle that you have now graciously attributed to my hand.

yes you big power crazy kindergarten kid...

POST HIS ISP

POST MY ISP

So what happened to computer identity numbers Sherlock Holmes?

Oh, I see, I'm now using FOUR DIFFERENT COMPUTERS!!

Yea, well some of us have a little cash to splash, not like you poor lonely fuckers...

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 17:23:50 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: I'm a poor lonely fucker, Roupell
Message:
Unlike you in your fancy digs at Ocean Shores. Looks fab, my man.

How 'bout splashin' a little cash this way for all the bandwidth you been using? Thaaaat's right, show a little graditude and push that 'Make a Donation' button, David. Thaaaat's right you are beginning to feel appreciation...take a nice breath and feel good as you click on the donation button. Thaaaaaaat's right....

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 02:34:45 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: How much gerry?
Message:
I feel that as a long time user I should contribute something.

Yea, I should have kept the 'lonely fucker' obscenety in the single, it doesn't apply to many of the forum's inhabitants but Pat must be pretty hard up if he can waste so much time in accusing me of posting everything he doesn't like on the forum.

What are your costs here? I may be able to help - of course I'll need clearance and verified permission from several insider cult operatives first.

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 09:20:04 (EST)
From: not a fool
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: nice FRUIT you are
Message:
the joke is on you, you fool. Your master is doing a wonderful job making of you an asshole.
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 04:15:07 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Thanks for permission to post your IP#s, Roupell
Message:
Thanks for telling me to post your IP#s. Here are the IP#s for your five posts in this thread. BTW I said nothing about ISPs. I said IP#s which are what you call computer numbers.

The first two groups of numbers are always the same and are the numbers assigned to your computer and never change. The last two groups change each time you log on to the net because your ISP, like mine and many others, assigns what are known as ""dynamic"" numbers.

1) The post by ''Suprised?'' (sic) titled ''Your ethics'' was posted on 11/19 at 5.37 am EST. The IP# is 198.142.18.20

2) Your above post giving me permission to post your IP#s was posted on 11/20 at 2.01 EST. The IP# is 198.142.179.77

3) Your post titled ''No Patrick it's not DR'' was posted on 11/19 at 8.21 EST. The IP# is 198.142.18.148

4) Your post titled ''This kind, Jimbo, this Kind'' was posted on 11/20 at 2.09 EST. The IP# is 198.142.179.77

5) Your post titled ''excuse me Mr Paranoid'' was posted on 11/20 at 2.16 EST. The IP# is 198.142.179.77

I'm sure Gerry will be only too pleased to confirm these numbers and plenty of sleuths will be tracing them to find out where they lead so as to confirm my findings.

Please go away for your own good. One day you may need an ex's shoulder to cry on when you find out that you have been fleeced by a conman running a money-making cult and you don't want to blow it completely and brand yourself a liar permanently. It will be very hard ever to trust you again.

Thank you for your co-operation in this matter.

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 04:40:41 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Oops sorry, Roupell
Message:
I forgot these.

Your two other anonymous posts in this thread titled ''Yes dear - keep popping them pills'' of 11/19 at 9.37 EST and ''footnote - the above is to Patrick Conlong not Wilson'' of 11/19 at 9.05 EST both have the same number: 198.142.179.195.

Sorry about that. I like to be thorough and accurate. It was a pleasure to be of service to you.

Now, what about YOUR ethics, Mr Suprised (sic)? I really feel sorry for you if you think that the games you are playing here are not called lies. You are a liar. If you don't think you are you really need to see a shrink pronto.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:12:30 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: ...dialup.optusnet.com.au
Message:
198.142.179.77 lisax3-077.dialup.optusnet.com.au
198.142.18.148 lisax4-148.dialup.optusnet.com.au
198.142.18.20 lisax4-020.dialup.optusnet.com.au
198.142.179.195 lisax3-195.dialup.optusnet.com.au
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 10:12:01 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Suprised?
Subject: it's 'surprised' not 'suprised'
Message:
and you're having an olfactory hallucination.
Your first sentence 'Jesiopus ot stinlkds in jhere/l’.'
if that could be called a sentence, indicates that
you need to sober up.
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 06:27:36 (EST)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: Suprised?
Subject: Re: Your ethics
Message:
and what is your point?? Why are you anonymous critics so chronically unable to string together a clear criticism?

What do you mean 2 years of false witness?? Get with it - the Radhasoami info is 99% correct- There was just one letter in the 'Best of' section'where someone got the wrong end of the stick. Hardly surprising since in premieworld the history is considered somewhat irrelevant and remains a vague subject.

The fact that a few people here have taken the trouble to find out as much as they can is, in my opinion, a service to anyone who would like to be better informed.

As you can see from the thread below - EPO are being as careful as possible to get the facts straight and I would be pleased if you could find any false or innacurate information about the Indian Roots on JM's pages. It all makes sense to me.

I was very quick - perhaps too quick - to jump on a minor error that someone made which I thought was possibly misleading so your wrong to latch on to this as being an example of 'false witness' . Actually this incident confirms that I, and others agree absolutely that it is important that EPO be committed to getting facts right.

The innaccuracy about the Radhasoami stuff , moreover, originatedi from the archives of the discussions that were ongoing here -everyone has a right to discuss these things and we don't claim to know the whole story- we have just been discussing our findings - when someone makes a mistake it's hardly the fault of EPO if 'gullible fools' believe them, especially if they don't read the whole article or whatever.

Anyway - you just go ahead tell yourself and others it's a joke- I would say you are the one who could eventually be accused of 'bearing false witness'

The trouble with your attitude is that you don't appear to want to know about the roots of Maharaji and Knowledge and yet you are quick to condemn anyone who is trying to get to grips with it. You no doubt think that the cultural context from which Maharaji, his father before him and the gurus before him etc. can tell us NOTHING valuable. Your thinking is dangerous and typical of the gullible fools that fall for the first cult that they come across -with no education as to the pitfalls.

Educate yourself if you want - and offer some corrections if you like to what EPO is saying -but at least be specific about what you think 'is a joke' about the connection with Radhasoami. While your about it why don't you ask Maharaji to publish a little more detailed history? I think you will find he is not entirely disinterested since he has obviously himself gone to some trouble to trace his guru ancestors as is bourne out on his website.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:16:48 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Honesty is a double edge sword
Message:
n'est-ce pas? Now, you know why a couple of people were concerned about the inflamed subject title. It's fodder for the oinkers.

On the other hand, it give us an opportunity to show them we are being real with each other. That's not a characteristic they can boast.

take care,

deborah

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 08:02:49 (EST)
From: know all
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: support for patrick, see my post below
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 06:15:42 (EST)
From: What about YOUR ethics...
Email: None
To: Suprised?
Subject: David Roupell? Grow up. NT
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 08:21:34 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: What about YOUR ethics...
Subject: NO Patrick it's not DR
Message:
Though I know you wish it was - and thanks for the thought. :)

Incidentaly, I have no argument whatsoever with Patrick Wilson who I regard as a brother (it's a Brit thing) and who posted a very honest, interesting account down below. As far as what they're talking about, well, to be quite frank I know sweet FA about any Indian religions or divine lines of ascended masters or what have you.

I printed out John's 'trainings' post today and just finished reading it. Wow, I'm so glad I (intuitively) avoided them thangs whenever they drew near. Not my scene man!

John, as always, your writing is brilliant, compelling and entertaining. I'm sure there are as many different views on the training as there were participants, but nonetheless, I doubt many of them would be so well written.

SC - the untrainable cowboy Lone Ranger

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 13:02:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: What kind of an idiot are you, Roupell?
Message:
Though I know you wish it was - and thanks for the thought. :)

Incidentaly, I have no argument whatsoever with Patrick Wilson who I regard as a brother (it's a Brit thing) and who posted a very honest, interesting account down below. As far as what they're talking about, well, to be quite frank I know sweet FA about any Indian religions or divine lines of ascended masters or what have you.

I printed out John's 'trainings' post today and just finished reading it. Wow, I'm so glad I (intuitively) avoided them thangs whenever they drew near. Not my scene man!

John, as always, your writing is brilliant, compelling and entertaining. I'm sure there are as many different views on the training as there were participants, but nonetheless, I doubt many of them would be so well written.

SC - the untrainable cowboy Lone Ranger


---

You don't know or care about Masters -- you just happened to have one.

You odn't know or care about 'Trainings' -- you just happen to have a Master that thinks they're the most important thing since who-knows-what and uses them to completely udnermine the self-confidence of his followers.

They have ostriches in Australia, Dave?

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 02:09:16 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: this kind Jimbo, this kind
Message:
The trainings were merely a means to sort out the ambitious organisational power trippers from the real devotees.

I wasn't fooled for a moment and thoroughly enjoyed John's fascinating account of proceedings.

My take is this...

Anyone silly enough to believe that they can go somewhere and be TRAINED how to become a better devotee clearly doesn't understand the basics of devotion and therefor deserves everything they get!

Yea, I know and they got it, serves them right!

I would humbly suggest that most 'trainees' were there to further their political ambitions within the organisation, you know , a bit like Pat Conlan has here, some well aimed grovelling and he's assistant FA, more sucking and licking and what's next?

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:02:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: You miss the point entirely -- LOL
Message:
You're hilarious, SC. Who gives a damn what so-and-so's motives were for participating in one of your cult leader's mindfucking sessions (don't know really what else to call them -- do you?)? The point is his involvement. Of course you can't see that. You can't afford to.

Very, very funny watching you squirm. Hilarious, really.

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 16:39:40 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Trick question, Jim :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 09:26:12 (EST)
From: so silly
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: slide...shhhhh
Message:
so superficial, so dead.
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 09:37:59 (EST)
From: yes dear
Email: None
To: so silly
Subject: keep popping them pills
Message:
x
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 09:05:25 (EST)
From: footnote.....
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: the above is to Patrick Conlong - not Wilson
Message:
and I luv youz all :)
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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 14:22:17 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: footnote.....
Subject: Don't accuse me, Roupell
Message:
......of posting to you anonymously. I just woke up now anyway.
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 15:31:28 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Ha ha ha ha })
Message:
Here's a big hug to you, Pat. You're doing a great job. Thanks for all your good work.

I'll be sending you an email later today regarding ISP's and IP's. It's a follow-up from my last email of the same topic.

Ciao, got to run to class.

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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 02:16:43 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: excuse me Mr Paranoid....
Message:
but...

WHAT THE FUCKING HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

cut down on the benzadrine whitefella

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 21:47:09 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: For Richard (ot)
Message:
Hey Richard. I would really like to chat about the money stuff etc..Really.
I mailed you back again, but I don't know if it will go through as readable stuff into your aol account. I use hotmail so? I have no idea how to change a format etc.. If so, maybe you could post your ideas to me at AG. I would really like to hear about some of your ideas.
Thanks again for the kindness, feel ok now,

Bar.

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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 22:26:06 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: For Richard (ot)
Message:
Barry,

It's not me you are trying to reach. I don't have an AOL account nor am I expecting you to send me money. I'm the only one posting here as Richard, so maybe it's another Richard or Rich from AG.

Richard who was Postie

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:35:24 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Ok, I'll try AG.
Message:
and no ones loaning me money. We are talking about the pricibles of money.
Thanks Richard,
Bar.
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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 22:03:51 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Is Criss Dicky still a premie?
Message:
Criss actually dropped me an E-mail saying some nice things and such.Tellin me to hang in there, that things would get better etc..
I think Criss is alright you know? Some people shouldn't bother with masters/gurus at all.
They'er really pretty cool people as is.
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Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 22:12:44 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: Is Criss Dicky still a premie???????????
Message:
Hi Bar,

Most premies are very nice people. Defending Maha makes can make them nasty. That's because they are defending the most fundamental belief that they have the most precious gift from a Perfect Master of the time. To be told that it's all a hoax is very threatening.

You have to understand, that the premie world doesn't 'get it' that we are critical of the BigHead. It's an enigma to them because they have never heard a shred of criticism about him. It literally stops their clock to read this stuff.

Glad to hear about the kind words from CD. Really!

deb (check your email, dude)

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Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 11:36:40 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: OK. thanks Deb.(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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