Vicki -:- Current Maharaji Tour -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:50:59 (EST)

__ Archie McDonald -:- Re: Current Maharaji Tour -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:54:55 (EST)

__ Chuck S. -:- Very true, Vicki. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:33:56 (EST)

__ __ Tim G -:- No regrets, no baggage -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:07:01 (EST)

__ AJW -:- Dream, dream, dream. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:28:21 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Everly Brothers: Dream, dream, dream. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:00:06 (EST)

__ Pat:C) -:- Yep, we followed the tooth fairy [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:24:03 (EST)

__ such -:- dreamweaver:cheat and deceiver -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:20:04 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Living in a Dreamworld... -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:00:36 (EST)

__ gerry -:- Rawat: No Meditation and no Heart -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 12:15:45 (EST)

__ Katie -:- Great post, Vicki - thank you [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:59:25 (EST)

Marianne -:- Don't engage the trolls, PLEASE -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:26:55 (EST)

__ AJW -:- Can't the FA delete these cult dickheads? (nt) -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 06:46:37 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- They can but MAY they do so? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 14:36:46 (EST)

__ __ __ AJW -:- In my day. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:34:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: In my day. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:45:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Kick out the Trolls. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:59:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Kick out the Trolls--That's My Vote [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:05:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Okay! Everyone please vote -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:31:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Just say when, oldtimer! [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:41:34 (EST)

__ Pat:C) -:- I must be a slow learner -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:35:06 (EST)

__ __ JohnT -:- May I make a suggestion? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 07:31:37 (EST)

__ Catweasel Rock Troll -:- Re: Don't engage the trolls, PLEASE -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:10:04 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- Read Marianne's post 1st, PLEASE -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:47:58 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- I think Deleting Them is Best... -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 09:32:47 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) channeling Nancy Reagan -:- JUST SAY NO TO CULTWEASELS! -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:41:45 (EST)

__ __ CW -:- OK, then mine makes more sense... -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:36:19 (EST)

Beachboy -:- Michael John and Lesley -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:15:49 (EST)

Peter Howie -:- The Con & scapegoats -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:39:42 (EST)

Peter Howie -:- Blind obedience & John McG's post -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:18:37 (EST)

__ G -:- not so contradictory -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 12:44:38 (EST)

__ CW -:- What a fool believes- he sees' -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:17:59 (EST)

__ __ G -:- What if he's wrong? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:09:14 (EST)

__ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: What a fool believes- he sees' -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:50:25 (EST)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: What a fool believes- he sees' -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:20:35 (EST)

__ __ Katie -:- Extremely poor communication -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:50:14 (EST)

__ __ __ CW -:- Based on John's report, but.. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:34:59 (EST)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Right that's it -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:23:46 (EST)

__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Right that's it -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:38:45 (EST)

__ Katie -:- Contradictory accounts -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:32:22 (EST)

__ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Contradictory accounts -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:01:59 (EST)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Excellent posts Peter -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:25:02 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Excellent posts Peter -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:40:57 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Isn't that stuff superficial and transitory? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:17:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- consulting industry is empty -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:08:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Isn't that stuff superficial and transitory? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:13:48 (EST)

eDrek and Marianne -:- When two or more are gathered... -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:06:52 (EST)

__ janet -:- Re: When two or more are gathered... -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:23:31 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- Janet, Happy Thanksgiving to you, too -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:27:29 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- Happy Thanksgiving eDrek & Marianne -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:19:40 (EST)

__ Selene -:- there are more -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:15:03 (EST)

ET -:- 'Realizing' Knowledge -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:13:40 (EST)

__ AJW -:- 'Realizing' Knowledge -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:03:57 (EST)

__ Jim -:- This was my first 'drip' -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:00:24 (EST)

__ __ ET -:- Realize in in Room -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:55:16 (EST)

__ __ hamzen -:- U never experienced grace states on acid? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:18:59 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Re: U never experienced grace states on acid? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:28:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Couldn't agree more Jim..hi/bye. -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:20:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Ditto [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:36:12 (EST)

__ hamzen -:- For myself it was VERY real -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:43:58 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- What does 'Enlightenment' Mean? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:12:25 (EST)

__ __ 'Grok' is such -:- a lovely word, -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:21:58 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Grok -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:27:25 (EST)

hamzen -:- Call me naive but -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 17:56:34 (EST)

__ Nigel -:- Hey Hammy - sounds, etc.. (ot) -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:58:49 (EST)

__ __ Nigel -:- Ok - here's the link.. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:11:41 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- OKAY, you're naive ;) -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:18:24 (EST)

__ Selene -:- Re: Call me naive but -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:10:09 (EST)

__ __ hamzen -:- Your timings excellent -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:23:39 (EST)

__ __ __ Selene -:- will email postal address -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:43:49 (EST)

suchabanana -:- Thanks -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 15:38:20 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Ditto and Thank You -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:36:39 (EST)

Joe -:- The Other Side of the Trainings -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 14:28:35 (EST)

__ G -:- 'leaders as a problem' -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:19:22 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Great post, G [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:24:59 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Well said, G! [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:26:18 (EST)

__ Katie -:- Re: The Other Side of the Trainings -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:46:19 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- The Fallacy of the Middle Ground -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 08:24:47 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Thanks, but disagree on a couple things -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:12:42 (EST)

__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Thanks, but disagree on a couple things -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:32:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I Fess Up...It's a Cult... -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:47:11 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well, since you asked ..... -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:20:44 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Thanks, but disagree on a couple things -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:46:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Thanks, but disagree on a couple things -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:05:44 (EST)

__ Michael McDonald -:- Thanks to Joe and Anon -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:36:45 (EST)

__ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Michael -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:35:36 (EST)

__ hamzen -:- Re trainings -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:16:33 (EST)

Jim -:- Fun News :) (for the braindead) -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:21:04 (EST)

__ suchabanana -:- and on the left: -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 15:21:46 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Sounds like an Amway Rally to me -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 14:34:40 (EST)

__ __ JHB -:- Amway Rallies -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:11:48 (EST)

__ Jim -:- And how about a night on the town? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:23:12 (EST)

__ __ hamzen -:- What's with the language ? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 17:51:47 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Frankly, I'm a bit worried for Ivette -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:46:42 (EST)

Searcher -:- Christmas ideas -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 22:25:39 (EST)

__ The Finder -:- Re: Christmas ideas -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 14:50:32 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Alleluiah! I'm a christian -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:14:44 (EST)

__ hamzen -:- Aah the gm school of humour, so subtle -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:38:33 (EST)

__ Pope Leo X -:- Ha ha ha, Ho ho ho -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:55:39 (EST)

__ salsa -:- nice mental ensalada NT -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:18:06 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- You're an asshole--Don't even bother reading above [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 22:29:51 (EST)

__ __ CW -:- Correction -If you are as Dumb as Deborah.. -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:15:09 (EST)

__ __ __ hamzen -:- Aah the most intelligent man in the universe -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:33:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ CW -:- RecogniseSteve Waugh -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:23:09 (EST)

__ __ __ helper -:- help to you -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:22:52 (EST)

__ __ __ Abi -:- or why not just ignore all CW posts -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:18:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: or why not just ignore all CW posts -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:22:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Cat, just get a Hotmail account! [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 10:47:25 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: or why not just ignore all CW posts -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:34:30 (EST)

__ __ Michael McDonald -:- I thought it was a good piece of -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:04:43 (EST)

__ __ __ Michael McDonald -:- Try again: I thought it was a good piece of -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:10:14 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Why would you say that, Deb? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:04:09 (EST)

__ __ __ Lesley -:- Re: Why would you say that, Deb? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:24:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Exactly, Lesley -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 15:55:25 (EST)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Deb, probably thinks SC's trying to... -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:59:12 (EST)

__ __ __ __ SC -:- fair enough Pat -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 03:29:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: fair enough Pat -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 03:51:25 (EST)

__ __ __ SC -:- Wake up Jimbo...you don't get it? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:33:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Roupell Unmasked (revised) -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 12:04:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Beautiful beaches there in Ocean Shores. -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 07:29:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Michael McDonald -:- No beaches at Ocean Shores, Gerry -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:46:05 (EST)

__ __ __ __ helper -:- SC, don't u get it? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:23:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ A fly on the wall -:- SC sed -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:45:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Since about 10 days ago -:- Today is an abba ration - I escaped mind control! -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 03:11:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Quick, Nurse -:- the irony injection! NT -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:42:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I thought you'd gone already? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:42:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Thanks Jim -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:01:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Two kinds of post: -:- Hit AND Run (nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:10:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Yea and you're a real thrill too -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:31:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ See, I knew you'd -:- still be around.. -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:35:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Michael... you cad! -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:55:17 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael McDonald -:- 'Sane and objective'? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:02:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- No, they just spelt 'boring' wrong! -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:14:11 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael McDonald -:- Mungo's never been keen on Crean NT -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:17:28 (EST)

Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:50:59 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: All Subject: Current Maharaji Tour Message:

It has only been a few months since I woke up to the facts behind M's public facade on EPO. This then, will be the first program I have not been invited to in nearly thirty years of following M. It brought to the surface some surprising feelings that I wasn't expecting, mainly saddness. Living with these for a few days gave me time to mull over just what was behind these bubbling bits of depression. And what it came down to for me is this, letting go of beautiful dream that had become my reality for thirty long years. A dream that superimposed upon my life a reality that was so real, it made everything else seem false. M and knowledge became the benchmark that not only I identiifed myself with, but also every other human in this world, including my family, and my day to day reality. Everything. This beautiful world of knowledge was so much better than the harsh, cruel world. So I was told and so I believed, had to believe or the dream could never have become real. And without a real dream, M is out of business. The wise lord on stage, with his platitudes and worldly observations, explaining how I was going to keep getting across the ocean of confusion that this life is, if I just stayed on board. The wise father that would sprinkle kid psych 101 stories about his own children, and how he was so wise in understanding their developement. The patient, devoted husband who loved his wife so faithfully. The safe harbor that knowledge was to come in from the cold, hard world and be safe in. Remember the skipper in the storm satsang at Long Beach? So it is hard. Very very hard, to realize that the dream superimposed on my life was just a dream. It's like waking up from a beautiful dream and facing the fact of "Ya, I was just dreaming." Logically it's easy to understand it was a dream, but emotionally it is hard because those feelings are residual and cause one to wish it had been true. So the fact that I'm not invited, even though the door is supposed to be always open, is very telling. It's like once someone realizes the dream scam, and doesn't accept that "It's okay, x-rate me", then it's imperative to keep people away from premies. I'm not the type to get in anyone's face about all I've learned. But it's a risk they can't take. So Maharaji goes on tour when he knows premies are spending their hard earned money on Thanksgiving and Christmas. The timing is very appropriate. Get the bucks before they are spent on families. My guess, and it's just a guess, is that EV is in the red again and they are trying to close the gap, like they've had to do for the past couple of years. They know no one is going to fork over Christmas money, but they will go see M. This is the highest suggested donation since Amaroo. The point of my writing this? That it's hard for the typical, naive premie to wake up because this beautiful dream sounds so much better than real life. And we made it better. We removed ourselves from dealing with real life. The problem is, it was just a dream. The heart inside people is real, if they want to get intouch with it. The calmness inside people is real, if they want to get intouch with it. But this world M created for us to believe in is not. And how much a premie devoted themselves to this dream is in direct ratio to how hard it is to give the dream up. Thank god for EPO.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:54:55 (EST) From: Archie McDonald Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Re: Current Maharaji Tour Message:

Vicki, I to realised that M`s stuff was a facarde after 28 years of being 'involved'. Believe me I haven`t felt so good in years. I really feel that the journey to that inner realm can be achieved by ourselves as part of life`s journey. We don`t need M and his cult for that. Best Wishes Archie

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:33:56 (EST) From: Chuck S. Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Very true, Vicki. Message:

You said: The heart inside people is real, if they want to get intouch with it. The calmness inside people is real, if they want to get intouch with it. But this world M created for us to believe in is not. The first two sentences of that statement were/are real for me, and for many of the premies. Unfortunately, they often become the motivation for not wanting to examine the last sentence, the dream world of belief in Maharaji. Premies have been conditioned to believe you can't have the first two without the believing in Maharaji. It's the religion that is the guru's dog collar. Once you've seen the dog collar for what it is, and you free yourself, well, it's gotta hurt some. I think you once said that people keep saying to you that after you leave Maharaji, it hurts, but it gets better over time. You went on to say that, while it may be true, it doesn't help you NOW when you're hurting. I can understand that. There is a certian amount of hurt that no one can save you from. It's a bit like a divorce, having the beautiful dream exposed as merely a dream. Talking about it with others who have gone through it helps, but there is still a process of readjustment, it was a big part of your life and will always be a big part of your past. Letting go of the dream hurts, but you are also letting go of something that was exploitative, and are now making room for healthier things in your life. You can KEEP what helped you from the experience, learn from your mistakes, open yourself to help from many sources, and learn new ways to enjoy your life, without someone elses religious baggage to carry as you move on. And the best part is you can have it all without having to sacrifice honesty. I really enjoy reading your posts, I only left 11 months ago, so they really resonate with me. I think they help a lot of people too. The first months are the most difficult, but fortunately it really does get easier with time. Better days are comming! They are starting even now :) Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings here, it helps us all.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:07:01 (EST) From: Tim G Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: No regrets, no baggage Message:

Hi Chuck I can honestly say that I have not regretted leaving M's world for many many years. In fact I am exceedingly grateful that I have nothing to do with it any more. Of course I know a few friends who are still trapped and mostly I bite my tongue about the subject. Occasionally when it feels right I speak my mind in no uncertain terms. I enjoy your postings and Vicki's too. Best Wishes Tim

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:28:21 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Dream, dream, dream. Message:

Hi Vicki, Thanks for posting that. It's just over three years since I quit the cult, and it's interesting to see the perspective of someone who has left more recently. The only reason I'd like to go and see the Captain nowadays is to stand up and ask him some questions. What I wanted to say is, I still have plenty of dreams in life. The difference nowadays is that there is the possibility of fulfilling them. With the Captain, you're just pissing into the wind. The dreams and promises he dangled in front of us were bullshit. I'm just very grateful I got out of the cult with some of my life left to call my own. In some ways it's like going back to the beginning again- like reaching the airport, and then having to go home to get your passport. But at least were back in reality, not pissing our lives away for a fucked up, has-been, dithering, dickhead with the worst case of "delusions of grandeur", since...since...fuck it, the worst case of delusions of grandeur ever seen on the planet. Greater than God my arse. So, don't worry about losing that one Vicki. There's plenty more where that came from, and the games not rigged when you chase those. I think it's got something to do with believing in Santa Claus, but I'm not sure what. Anth "last night I saw St Augustine, alive as you or me."

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:00:06 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: AJW Subject: Everly Brothers: Dream, dream, dream. Message:

When I was a very little girl, about 3-4, this was my favorite song: Everly Brothers WHEN I WANT YOU IN MY ARMS WHEN I WANT YOU AND ALL YOUR CHARMS WHENEVER I WANT YOU ALL I HAVE TO DO IS DREAM, DREAM, DREAM, DREAM. WHEN I FEEL BLUE IN THE NIGHT AND I NEED YOU TO HOLD ME TIGHT WHENEVER I WANT YOU ALL I HAVE TO DO IS DREAM I CAN MAKE YOU MINE TASTE YOUR LIPS OF WINE ANYTIME NIGHT OR DAY. ONLY TROUBLE IS GEE WHIZ, I'M DREAMING MY LIFE AWAY I NEED YOU SO THAT I COULD DIE. I LOVE YOU SO AND THAT IS WHY. WHENEVER I WANT YOU ALL I HAVE TO DO IS DREAM. That's what loving m was about literally. I still love the song but I can dream of my real life love. I also adored Perry Como's ''Catch A Falling Star''...same age. Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:24:03 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Yep, we followed the tooth fairy [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:20:04 (EST) From: such Email: banana@ezra_gangsta.edu To: Vicki Subject: dreamweaver:cheat and deceiver Message:

the dreamweaver: cheat and deceiver robs prime of believer a soul in fever occult confusion a cult delusion I'd call it amusin, except... take back your days and your nights your thoughts essence goals projects purpose space joys journeys discoveries amazement amusement contentment no fear in freedom individual trust shattered heart's hopes retrieved from the dust the power that makes and takes also awakes! what you own you carry within and no one else may claim that. --- --- --- --- --- --- -- btw, Once upon a time, I dreamt I was an angel, soaring hither and thither; to all my intents and purposes an angel. I was conscious only of my happiness as an angel, unaware that I was suchabanana. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was an angel, or whether I am now an angel, dreaming I am a man... [hehehe, i've got a Dow Jones] Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:00:36 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Living in a Dreamworld... Message:

The waking up part has caused me exhilaration and grief. I was the kind of premie who dove in head first and even after leaving the ashram in Jan. 1981, and didn't ''keep in touch,'' I still invested my belief system (I still believed him to be lord), my prayers (he told me to), my trust (he always said he'd never abandon me--no cheat and deceit), and even in his platitudes he had me convinced he loved me more than anyone else in the world could (so I always held him out at my first and last resort in life). When I went back in 1997 I went into a state of denial/acceptance over and over until I just came here and read. My first drip was the Jagdeo matter. Actually, the Jagdeo matter was a bucket of cold water on my head and I am convinced Maharaji covered up the child abuse which constitutes a huge a character flaw. I loved him. I'm not afraid to admit it. But his world is a fake. And he betrayed me and all others who have ever devoted themselves to Maharaji as lord, ashram premies, married, single, whoever. Removing that veil of Maharaji's deception is an act of courage and facing fear of waking up. It's difficult to focus on all the losses associated with Maharaji's congame. I love to dream and I linger on the good ones; I am always happy to wake up from a nightmare. I don't forgive him and don't expect him to do anything on my behalf to assuage the abuse of being a premie of Guru Maharaj Ji, Lord of the Universe for 25 years. I was thinking about being an adult and what's generally accepted as adult behavior in our culture. When one lists all of Maharaji's behaviors it's apparent he is not an adult at all. He is still a delinquent teenager who has no conscience, but he is older now and man, it shows. I'm starting to ramble. Sorry...I just want you to know you are not alone in this exiting process. Thanks, once again, for your beautiful writing and thoughts... Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 12:15:45 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Rawat: No Meditation and no Heart Message:

Ironic, isn't it? Here's this guy mouthing all these beautiful platitudes, many of them basic truism, most if not all, he doesn't really believe or understand. It's clear form his 'Why do ask?' answer to the question about his meditative practise that Rawat has no such disciple in his life. It's abundantly clear he has no real heart connection within inside (snicker) himself either. If he had the connection, he would not engage in the behaviors he does. Certainly, someone with a strong heart connection would be unable and unwilling to abuse people as Rawat demonstrated in his 'Trainings.' No, this is one cool and calculated extractor of your very lifeblood. I'm so glad you woke up from this nightmare disguised as a dream, Vicki.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:59:25 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Great post, Vicki - thank you [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:26:55 (EST) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: All Subject: Don't engage the trolls, PLEASE Message:

There are several premies who post here who hijack the forum, especially when important posts and topics come up. They make posts which cause us -- me included -- to fight with them and then the important topics and threads disappear. Please don't pay attention. One such post appears below. People are coming here to get information and the destabilizing posts make it difficult for them to find what they are looking for. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 06:46:37 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Can't the FA delete these cult dickheads? (nt) Message:

They're a waste of pixels.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 14:36:46 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: AJW Subject: They can but MAY they do so? Message:

Anything that is obviously vicious (like references to a person's kids or private life) should be deleted but most of the cultweasel stuff is nonsense anyway and should simply be ignored. Deleting them may even make them more determined to disrupt. Not responding is definitely the solution. I'll remind you to ignore them if you remind me when I forget - just as long as you don't start nagging me to remember my breath or enjoy life, okay?

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:34:47 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: In my day. Message:

Hi Pat, When I did duty as FA, I just used to delete troll posts as they appeared. The dickheads soon stopped posting when they realised they were wasting their time. I really think the forum is a much better place without them. It's like running a bar, and there's this twat who keeps coming in and annoying the locals. In the end, it's best to ban him and kick him out. Once he realises he won't get through the door, he stops coming round. Then a few months later he sticks his head round the door and acts nice for a bit. People who don't know him chat etc, but in the end his true nature comes to the surface and you go round again. What's the use in having the POWER if you don't use it Pat? This isn't a place for cultheads to spout their crap. Fuck the premie trolls. Kick them off. Wocha worried about? They are knuckle head, toe kissing, amoral dickheads. This is a much nicer place without them. Also Pat, if you delete them quickly, nobody even knows they were there, and life goes on quite merrily, and nobody ever complains. Anth the reasonable

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:45:59 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: In my day. Message:

Anth: Once he realises he won't get through the door, he stops coming round. Then a few months later he sticks his head round the door and acts nice for a bit. People who don't know him chat etc, but in the end his true nature comes to the surface and you go round again. But, there are always those regulars who clue in the folks who don't know what total asshole wasters, losers, manipulators the trolls are. Cling-ons. Pains in the asses. Mean and nasty, trying to pull me into that mind-set of (cough) hate--a feeling I very seldom have. The other part is not only to ignore them, but not to read them! Cynthia, who likes to be bossy and is a lousy team player--I want to lead!

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:59:22 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Kick out the Trolls. Message:

Hi Cynthia, The advantage with kicking their posts off as soon as they appear, (besides eventually getting rid of them), is that nobody has to avoid reading their dumbass, culthead abuse and propaganda, because they aren't there to read. This is why I'm in favour of kicking them off. I used to do it when I was FA, and they soon stop posting when they realise they are wasting their time. I think they go to another forum somewhere, which I usually ignore. Anth 'If I had the wings of a sparrow, '

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:05:35 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: AJW Subject: Kick out the Trolls--That's My Vote [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:31:22 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Okay! Everyone please vote Message:

If the majority agree that troll posts should be deleted, I'll be happy to delete them. Let's get this straight first - are we all talking about the same two regular trolls, SC and CW? The bar bores with bad breath?

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:41:34 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: AJW Subject: Just say when, oldtimer! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:35:06 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: Marianne Subject: I must be a slow learner Message:

I actually thought that they may learn something here even if only to communicate on the net democratically. But they haven't gotten any better at that and they really do seem to be incapable of democratic discussion. They also appear to be hardened and closed minded. That kind of attitude is a sign of bigotry or fanaticism - the same kind of cult zealotry which created CAC. I guess I have to accept that they will not change their ways and are intent on disrupting and hijacking the forum. The words undermining and sabotage spring to mind or at the very least disrespect and anti-social game playing. I have no intention of playing with them anymore. They are not nice people. However I do have to react to an extent especially when the Borg appear in new disguises pretending to be humans. I'll take the consequences of not having any qualms about drawing attention to anyone who is posting under another alias for malicious purposes. I'm not a very good policeman but, if you blow your whistle loud enough (by email if necessary) I'll hear it. I can't stand deceitful people and, in this milieu, they take the shape of cult apologists, disruptors and agents provocateurs. The CACroaches and Cultweasels are simply playing games with us - mindfuck games just like their massa.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 07:31:37 (EST) From: JohnT Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: May I make a suggestion? Message:

Once a troll has been banned, any posts they make should be either deleted, or gutted. By gutted I mean that the contents of the post should be removed by the FA and replaced with a notice saying something like 'Post from banned TROLL whatsisname removed. Please use Life's Great to talk with this TROLL'. I believe both Roupell and CW have been asked to stop using the forum, so that would be fair. It may also be an idea to put a sentence or two in the words at the top of the Forum to alert new users of the Troll attacks and to explain the policy of gut and ignore.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:10:04 (EST) From: Catweasel Rock Troll Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Don't engage the trolls, PLEASE Message:

You dont want a view contrary to your own rather jaundiced opinion? Seems to me you are advocating censorship by design.You seem to imply that the'reader' is of such limited intelligence ,they are not capable of forming their own opinions. A real tick of approval for the silent audience huh?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:47:58 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Read Marianne's post 1st, PLEASE Message:

Thanks for the heads up. That bothers me too. I made an attempt to warn people about the other thread only to see it have the opposite effect.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 09:32:47 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Deborah Subject: I think Deleting Them is Best... Message:

Hi all, Are you exhausted, Pat? Happy Thanksgiving... Anyway, this subject has been discussed so much it feels like beating a dead horse. I go with the deletion as you described. Censorship? They behave like cyberstalking trolls so must be treated as such. I know it's impossible to delete them all, but as much as you feel you can do. CW and SC have self-imposed themselves upon us for no purpose other to disrupt. It's hard to resist them because they say abusive stuff and my first impulse is to react. It's childish nontheless. O well...Have you heard any of Andre Bocelli's work? He's a beautiful tenor and quite a hotty, too. Sad, he's blind. Just a bit of morning babble... Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:41:45 (EST) From: Pat:C) channeling Nancy Reagan Email: None To: Deborah Subject: JUST SAY NO TO CULTWEASELS! Message:

You're right, Deborah. You said all along there was no need for them. Also they bring out the absolute worst in you and me. ;)

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:36:19 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Deborah Subject: OK, then mine makes more sense... Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:15:49 (EST) From: Beachboy Email: None To: All Subject: Michael John and Lesley Message:

Time to head for the beach! Your sophistry and navel gazing is tres boring. You Aussies should be having more fun!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:39:42 (EST) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: All Subject: The Con & scapegoats Message:

I'm not sure if this happened at the trainings but a favourite of the con games is the 'plant'. The plant either makes money or fails just short of making money in order to lure the 'mark' into gampling their money on a con. If this was the case with the training then the 'plant' would be expecting to be knowked off or out and would come back at a later time or to another session. This is seen in street auctions or small shop auctions. The auctioneer seems to be giving away fantastic bargains - but they always elude you or me -it is the person behind you or beside you that gets them. Of course after a few sales they all meet out of sight and return the goods and split the fees and go and start again. Cheers Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia ps I am somewhat delighted that the Amaroo mob were so problematic. It goes to show that human development and desire for expansion can't always be stifled.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:18:37 (EST) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: All Subject: Blind obedience & John McG's post Message:

John's remembered quote of MJ 'If a manager tells you to dig a hole immediately above a buried electrical cable then the only thing you are to say is 'How deep' ' - is very reminiscent of the 70's. It also entrenches the beauracracy as channelling the grace. To me it also contradicts CW's story that the whole organisation of the 80's was about individuals going mad and nothing to do with MJ. At that time whatever was asked by various people in the beauracracy was as good as 'agya'. It sems that this is still the case. It is all a different version of the premie on the movie LOTU saying that they would slit someones throat. More scary is imagining following some loopy premie's idea about something because of their positional authority in the organisation. John's quote seems to contradict Katie's friend who talks about 'taking off shoes, socks, pants' story. ???? Anyway perception rules. Like Joe said below - some people will take enormous effort to maintain a worldview. And don't we all? It is the 'rose coloured glasses' syndrome except in this case it is the 'MJ coloured glasses'. In psychology this is called a 'theme effect' - where a particular way of seeing the world colourers everything. e.g. people who have been abused seeing everything through the perspective of 'abuse/victim' lens. People who have been ripped off seeing everything through the perspective of 'don't trust' lens, etc. In this case people who are devotees seeing everything as 'lila of lord'. Cheers for now Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 12:44:38 (EST) From: G Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: not so contradictory Message:

I don't think the 'dig the ditch' quote really contradicted the 'shoes, socks, pants' edicts. Tke pwikies did take off their shoes and socks, didn't they? Sounds like humiliating subservience to me. And Rawat did initially say 'take off you pants', didn't he? Very weird. What if he hadn't then ORDERED them NOT to take off their pants? What would have happened? Even in NOT taking off their pants, they were in a way obeying Rawat, at least that's the way Rawat made it seem. That was one hell of a mixed-message mind fuck. It's like he's saying 'I could make you take off your pants, but I won't.' The rest is just a cover, just like intro programs are, and him saying that he nevered said he was God. He manipulates them to be blindly obedient, then rubs their subservience in their faces, blaming them for it, showing them how much they are acting like snivaling worms, how 'no good' they are. This is a typical dominance/submission game. T he Master has to insult the dog for being so cowardly submissive, that comes with the territory. When a mixed message happened, the recipient of the mind fuck takes into what the real message is, but is not necessarily aware of it, they are very confused. The real message is not clearly stated, and in a way that makes it have more of an effect, like implying that someone is stupid, that's more effective than just saying 'You're stupid.' It's a way to get around people's defences. Many years ago a honcho told a story about Rawat ordering him to run a red light. Rawat didn't then recind the order. The honcho didn't run the light. Rawat said 'Maybe next time.' The fact that Rawat told him to run a red light, to do something dangerous, is a warning signal.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:17:59 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: What a fool believes- he sees' Message:

You don't think the pertinent qoute was if you are asked to dig a hole and there is an Electical cable situated there ,you may wish to know 'How Deep' the cable is buried.Your manager is the person who can give you just that information. It all depends on how your mind works Pete. Mine has always leaned to the very practical. Take out the colour and mystic of McMuffin ,look clearly at the statement and it's all very simple. You guys!Painting was not a religious experience. You thought it was; the reality was that it was just painting.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:09:14 (EST) From: G Email: None To: CW Subject: What if he's wrong? Message:

Your manager might be wrong. YOu shouldn't bet your life that your manager is correct, that's something you should verify yourself. I think your interpretation is just a rationalization. You should NOT ask 'How deep?', if you want to know how deep the cables are buried, your should ask 'How deep are the cables'. But before that, you should challenge the order to dig over electrical cables. Is it really needed? Isn't there another place to dig the hole? Why over electrical cables? Why did you tell me to dig a hole here without telling me there are electrical cables and how deep they are? Are you some kind of idiot? Are you trying to get me KILLED??? THOSE are the questions you should ask. A situation like that, where someone's life is at stake, should be discussed in depth. Think of all the useless tasks that premies have been told to do, and like mindless slaves, they do it. Also consider DECCA, where in fact premies DID work in harmful conditions (chemicals) and WERE physically harmed, thanks to the so-called merciful Rawat. They didn't question what was going on. So your interpretation is proved false by the facts.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:50:25 (EST) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: What a fool believes- he sees' Message:

Hi CW, Yes - you got it in one! I certainly took it the other way. That makes sense why everyone didn't leave immediately. Gnash, gnash with a tinge of red. Then again that's me - as you celarly saw many years ago. Bugger about the politics round here. I noticed with some humour that 'our boys' (SAS)only departed yesterday for a place a bit closer to Afganistan. Kuwait, I believe. During the election it seemed that ole' Johnny had personally sent them off to the heart of the conflagration. All the time they were still here. Nive bit of PR. Anyway nice to see you are still around - I thought you had spat the dummy and weren't going to post again. There must be too much entertainment around here you. At least during the slow moments. Cheers Peter ps Still haven't worked you out - but then again I can't remember David Roupell or John MacGregor either. Know the names but faces have well and truly flown. P

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:20:35 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Re: What a fool believes- he sees' Message:

You knew me much better than them.John has a wicked sense of the moment. He can and does take the reader on a journey - of his choosing. I know John. I could dispute a number of his assertions from my own personal experience. But I believe in the old adage 'Give them enough rope and....' Yes I do enjoy a laugh. The Gringo's here often seem to reply seriously to some very obvious humour. That's Yanks for you. You know how they got that name? 'Yankee Doodle? Think about that.'With his Britches upside down' Hmmm 'Riding on a pony' Oh the vision I get. This is the one where I always put young Pat on the pony. That's funny!!?? He looks the same as usual...........

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:50:14 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: CW Subject: Extremely poor communication Message:

Hey Cat - I do get your point about the buried cable example, but the point was obviously VERY poorly communicated - if it was communicated at all. I think even you would agree that John is a very intelligent person, and if he didn't get it, then likely other people didn't get it either. Frankly, if anyone told me to dig a hole over a buried cable, and didn't mention how deep the cable was buried, or even that they KNEW there was a cable there, I would certainly challenge them - and I'd be right. There are so many accidents in the construction trade because of bad assumptions, miscommunications, and stupidity that one has to look out for oneself (I'm pretty sensitive to this because my brother almost died from doing something someone else said was "safe".) TC, Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:34:59 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Katie Subject: Based on John's report, but.. Message:

I understand your concern. The truth is John is not a 'tradie' or 'handyman' type. For those who are , it was extremely succinct. Simple direct and practical. Economy of words.If your mind lives in a zone of synomyns and creative comparison, such an answer does two things. It goes to YOUR understaning of what is going on. And the simple meaning flies over your head like an exhibition Frisbee throw at the Extreme Games. John has miscommunicated one salient point about M. He IS a very practical guy. By his (John's) understandings of lots of things he has described he shows two things. One, he has had very little interaction with M , and two the practical reality of running a rural retreat on the scale of Amaroo was way beyond him or his co-partners in their attempt to form a Collective Management team (Kibbutz?). Ten managers? Get off the grass John....(or at least ,pass it over here!)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:23:46 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: CW Subject: Right that's it Message:

You're too smart for me, Catweasel.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:38:45 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Right that's it Message:

Not smart enough to throw in your bloody English horses on Cup day!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:32:22 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Contradictory accounts Message:

Hi Peter - Good to hear from you. I agree that the 'buried cable' and the 'shoes, socks, pants' story are contradictory - and puzzling. My very opinionated - and not fully informed - take on this is that the facilitators who were running at least some of the trainings (including Maharaji), were using psychological techniques which they didn't fully understand - or were not able to communicate very well at all. It is almost like they used a cookbook for corporate training procedures, but didn't read through to the purpose for each exercise - or maybe didn't "get it" themselves until later on in the trainings. Who knows? Take care, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:01:59 (EST) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: Contradictory accounts Message:

Thanks Katie, Yeah, well, probably just as well too. The forces thay are playing with can be very difficult to deal with. People can get well and truly fucked up. This type of work when done in an unethical manner can really do things to people. The Taliban training schools are a good indication of this. The training schools in Kampuchea during the 'killing fields' slaughter - post Vietnam - war is another. These examples would be the 'out there' extreme. The human forces being manipulated are the same though. Half my work in organisations is overcoming some dopey or terrible things other facilitators have done in people's pasts. Some people think it is OK to con and trick people in this way. Forum and EST and heaps of others have been doing this (conning) and making significant $$$ for years. The odd thing is that all the 'tricks' work just as well when a person is fully informed about what is taking place, why and what the 'trick' actually is. The added advantage is that doing it in this 'out' way means people can really learn about what makes them tick. For example - in a group training situation - invite someone to be a volunteer - have them stay in the room. Then tell everyone in the room something like this 'I would like to show you how inferences can be made automatically. I will do this by telling you that this volunteer is a person who always tells lies and then having you notice what effect this has on you. OK. Ready. This peron always tells lies. They never tell the truth. They are tricky and devious - never trust them.' The facilitator then asks the volunteer a range of questions - straight foward ones. Low and behold - most people in the room notice that they can't help feeling that this person is a lying scum-dog. Then the opposite can be done by introducing a person as always honest, always truthful and full of integrity. Low and behold - everyone feels a sense of trust towards this other person. Now the interesting thing is that everyone was present throughout the whole show. This is important because it shows so very clearly how we can be influenced to follow other's inferences. There a heaps of other ways of illustrating this type of thing. Its works well in the above example in organisations because the participants are very experienced in giving their opinions of other people as though these opinions have no effect. Imagine for yourself if you were about to meet someone new and a colleague told you they were fantastic - or hideous. What a difference to your warm-up to meeting this person. Cheers for now Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:25:02 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Excellent posts Peter Message:

Gee, where have you been? It's nice to read such an informative post on the topic. Riddle me this, Peter? What effect do you think it has for premies who come here and read the stuff about BigHead as liar, deceiver, murderer, two-bit adulter, abuser, etc. and than go a program where the MC introducing the same guy (BigHead) is welcomed as the most incredibel, influential, beautiful person in the world? Is this why the trolls are so duplitious? I mean they can say one thing in one post and the opposite in the next post in the same thread. Or do you think they're just being assholes?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:40:57 (EST) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: Excellent posts Peter Message:

Hi Deborah, Thanks. Yeah I've been flat out work wise. I am usually reluctant to post if I wont be around to respond. Well to be honest - I am also keen to see the responses if any - perhaps even crave responses - so I kind of save things up a bit - and then the ideas change and progress anyway or I notice a similar response to me. For instance I am away all next week - computer free zone as well. Mostly I am around a computer for a few hours here or there..... As for your question - I think what you are wondering about is at the heart of what EPO can do. It holds up dis-confirming evidence to premies ideas about MJ. Some of the stuff I read on 'Transformational Learning' by Jack Mezirow suggests that learning only begins when the real world is shown to be different from my ideas of the world. And I think this is what happens with this forum adn EPO. I get surprised my myself at how on reading some of the newer stuff here I still notice the underlying spiritual beliefs that linger. Now I don't mean to argue spiritual beliefs - but nearly all my spiritual beliefs came post MJ. Then MJ went out of my life but it has taken a lot longer for those developed spiritual beliefs to fall away. And when they fall away I notice a twinge of regret or sadness. I imagine that premies are not keen to take on a range of feeling - easier to deny the evidence. For instance in reading about some brain functioning there is a part of our brain that generates a sense of boundary around ourselves. This part of the brain gives us a sense of ourselves as individual, as having one identity, of being limited and time bound and 'within our own skin'. Now this is interesting because there are many spiritual things/gurus that try to have us feel unlimited, boundaryless - one with the universe. All it requires is for this area of our brain to be effected - or as Jim says - 'brain chemistry'. It is interesting to consider why we evolved to have this part of our brain. It is also very interesting to consider why there is so much therapy around that is simply trying to have individulas get a real sense of their own limits and boundaries - rather than the reverse. So I think what you are posing is in the realm of the 'drip' process. Also your final point. Well I worked with a person recently in a group and she had a very strong image of herself as a forthright straight shooter, says it like it is, no nonsense person etc etc. Now on the one had this was very true. But on the other hand she became very aware that there were many opinions she didn't share, many ideas she didn't put forward, there were many strong feeling responses she had that she didn't bring forward. In the context of the learning program she was trying to develop a degree of transparency so that people would not misunderstand her. The dilemma for her was that she realised her self-rhetoric didn't match her actions. And this was quite difficult for her and she was great in that she did put this dilemma on the table. So I think this dilemma is regularly created here for premies and ex-premies alike. Do my values-in-action match my expressed values. Sometimes they are just being arseholes as well. And we make good targets for them. Cheers Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia and around a computer for 10 minutes

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:17:15 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Isn't that stuff superficial and transitory? Message:

ALL that workshop stuff seems so pointless. AS IF people change in any meaningful way through any of it. The only thing that changes, if anything, is their jargon and the way they might present themselves for a short period and, even then, only when they think about it and they think someone's watching. I truly believe this whole consulting industry is empty and worthless -- if not worse.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:08:18 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jim Subject: consulting industry is empty Message:

Which is precisely why it appeals to Rev Rawat. It is mind-games given a veneer of respectability because corporations have used it. Of course in the only one I ever went through, it became obvious to me almost immediately that the stated supposed purpose (''team work'') really was simply a distraction. It was meant to give us the ''feeling'' that we were participating democratically but in actual fact eroded the informal democracy which already existed in the work force. The ''team work'' trainings were actually designed to consolidate top down management. It's a mindfuck and that's your answer too, Deb. Like servant like massa. They're all playing games. It's all you know how to do after receiving the fifth technique.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:13:48 (EST) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Isn't that stuff superficial and transitory? Message:

Dear Jim I largely agree. Most research seems to indicate that the training processes don't work or at best the data is contradictory. So why does it persist? My simple response is that it purports to provide answers and people (just like premies) crave answers. And there are endless streams of consultants who will promise answers - some of the worlds largest firms - Andersons etc. As I write this I am aware for instance of a major government report showing that most IT systems don't live up to their promises (most being 95%). Same thing - IT is sold as the answer - and this IT solution will solve all your problems - etc. This meditation is the answer and will solve all your spiritual problems etc. Without sale reps many businesses would not exist. The idea of changing someone at a workshop is very simplistic. The idea of a person changing themselves is also over simplistic. Learning is one thing - changing is another. As for it being superficial and transitory - we would have to be more specific to agree. I would say that the example I gave before could well fall into that category. However it is important to note in organisations how quickly opinions are formed and how they can become set in concrete - impervious to contradictory data. Most internal organisational politics is around unresolved conflict - much of which is created by dodgy inferences come to on very little unverified data. As a consultant I can't quite come at agreeing that my work is empty and worthless or worse. But I do appreciate that the idea has merit. And I am keen to see if my work has any real effect. I work hard to try and separate myself from the common ruck of consultants and to a large degree have succeeded. Of course I then worry whether I am as up my bum as I was when following MJ. Ahhh! I am only much good at a few things in the consulting game and so far have been able to generate a living from these arenas. My major success is in assisting groups of functioning individuals in organisations to work collaboratively together to assist each other and to provoke ongoing learning with each other. These groups keep on going long after I have had anything to do with them. So I am able to develop independence rather than dependence - even though from a money making point of view dependence really works for consultants. It just doesn't work for people and groups to be dependent. Every time people try to develop independence from MJ as a group he canes them good. I find this very sad. Currently we (my partner/wife and I)run programs with significant built-in evaluation processes. Don't ask me how we managed this but we did. It is unique in our experience of this industry. However it gives me/us some confidence in knowing what it is I/we are good at and what is fantasy. Cheers for now Peter Howie Brisbane, Australia ps I love your doggedness. It really produces some outstanding results. Not love/comfort/ease or anything easy but it provokes and demands a real level of response which I appreaciate. So I appreciate your ability and determindness to do it in the face of enormous opposition. I know I wouldn't/couldn't do it if you stopped. P

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:06:52 (EST) From: eDrek and Marianne Email: None To: All Subject: When two or more are gathered... Message:

(eDrek) Ah, yes, another year to give thanks that I am free from Maharaji's poisonous cesspool of mind control where HE wants me to surrender more and more of myself and my money to HIM. No matter how many of me there are, I will not succumb. I have broken free. I no longer live in fear that I am not doing enough to please my sick and twisted Lord of Lords. CAC and it's apprentices still attack and defame me, but I will not back down and shut the hell up. Maharaji sucks and he sucked away enough of my life to last me 10,000 lifetimes - what a fucking leech! Ok, insert guitar solo here and followed by solo from Marianne. Alright, Marianne got busy with carving the turkey and she has told me that I can speak for her. Here it goes: Hmmm, ah, er, uh, well, gee... Let's talk offline about this.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:23:31 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: eDrek and Marianne Subject: Re: When two or more are gathered... Message:

I give deep thanks on this day of gratitude, that I no longer worship that turkey. overstuffed, at that.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:27:29 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: janet Subject: Janet, Happy Thanksgiving to you, too Message:

Hope you're having a nice day!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:19:40 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: eDrek and Marianne Subject: Happy Thanksgiving eDrek & Marianne Message:

You said Marianne is carving the turkey. I didn't know Maha was there? ;)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:15:03 (EST) From: Selene Email: None To: eDrek and Marianne Subject: there are more Message:

Thanks for the strength and support, both of you. Marianne I had no idea you were such a writer - just kidding I know how that eDrek can be. Am glad you are together and having a good day. CAC sucks lizard boogers. Me too, am off to eat. but not lizard boogers!!!! My husband cooked dinner. He is spoiling me but don't tell him.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:13:40 (EST) From: ET Email: prothro@compuserve.com To: All Subject: 'Realizing' Knowledge Message:

I never really understood what 'realizing' Knowledge meant. Was it supposed to be equivalent to 'enlightenment'? Or did it mean finally seeing light as bright as a billion suns? Or was it just an unattainable goal to keep us striving?

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:03:57 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: ET Subject: 'Realizing' Knowledge Message:

You 'Realise Knowledge' when you see it for what it is. Patterns, falling wax, snot, breathing and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of faith. It's not until you quit, that you realise what it really is. Anth the realised parsnip

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:00:24 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: ET Subject: This was my first 'drip' Message:

When I first got seduced into the cult in '72/'73, 'realizing Knowledge' was a very specific goal. Indeed, it was the goal. What did it mean? It meant crossing over the barrier of ego and illusion and gaining true, no-shit, capital 'e' enlightenment. Only M, his Holy Family, the mahatmas and MAYBE -- can't be sure -- one or two very special premies had ever made it. All of us were trying. A couple of years later, though, M just stopped talking about it. Then we all 'spaced out' in the workshop phase in late '75 and '76. Then, when M yanked our chains and pulled us back into the devotional barnyard, in the latter part of '76 after the Essen, Germany conference for national co-ordinators, we started grovelling in abject humiliation, ashamed, as we were, for having demonstrated how worldly we truly were. No one ever talked about realizing K again. It was all about prayer and devotion. Like I say, even then I couldn't understand that. Now I do: it was all nothing.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:55:16 (EST) From: ET Email: None To: Jim Subject: Realize in in Room Message:

I remember someone in satsang in 1973 saying you should lock yourself in a room to 'realize' Knowledge. I thought if you 'realized' it, then you would know what all the excitement was about. What a bust -- just like the Astrodome.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:18:59 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: U never experienced grace states on acid? Message:

??

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:28:48 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Re: U never experienced grace states on acid? Message:

Ham, I experienced all sorts of things but that wasn't 'realizing Knowledge'. I mean, to me now it's all bullshit. I had many experiences, in and out of the cult, after dark-roasting my mind on meditation or other fires, that I thought were clear glimpses of the 'realized state'. Now, as you know, I think they weren't that at all, just brain chemistry, pure and simple.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:20:27 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Jim Subject: Couldn't agree more Jim..hi/bye. Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:36:12 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Ditto [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:43:58 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: ET Subject: For myself it was VERY real Message:

I've been conscious of an altered state, filled with grace, which is absolutely gorgeous to experience, and where so much more made sense, since I first took acid. Constantly being aware of that 'whatever' I took to be enlightenment. Later on even that seemed another concept. Isn't it about the isness of the moment, and grokking on it to your maximum ability or whatever you want to call it, if it's about anything?

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:12:25 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: hamzen Subject: What does 'Enlightenment' Mean? Message:

I was curious to look up enlightenment: Dictionary.com enlightenment n. 1. a.The act or a means of enlightening. b.The state of being enlightened. 2.Enlightenment: A philosophical movement of the 18th century that emphasized the use of reason to scrutinize previously accepted doctrines and traditions and that brought about many humanitarian reforms. 3.Buddhism & Hinduism. A blessed state in which the individual transcends desire and suffering and attains Nirvana. I should have looked it up before I joined the cult.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:21:58 (EST) From: 'Grok' is such Email: None To: hamzen Subject: a lovely word, Message:

thank you Robert Heinlein, otherwise a hopeless fascist

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:27:25 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: 'Grok' is such Subject: Grok Message:

If you can grok what I'm saying: sometimes it's the only word to be used when trying to get someone to grok what I'm saying...:)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 17:56:34 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: All Subject: Call me naive but Message:

whatever happened to the zen parts of his speeches about knowledge, and whatever happened to that enlightenment thing of going beyond the master to come back to the fullness of the moment in it's isness, which even he used to hint at occasionally? Now it seems like the longer you have k the more you need him to remind you, scary. Whatever happened to the concept of of k that the more you experienced it, the more you reminded yourself, because of the gorgeousness of your experience. I've never experienced a gorgeousness that made me forget the moment and need increased remindings. Especially when you consider that each of us 'tuned into' ther magical pull by recognizing it ourselves. Sod dependency on the master, if you see tyhe buddha on the road, kill him. And for any idjut premies, that's a metaphorical murder, not a fakiranand one.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:58:49 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: hamzen Subject: Hey Hammy - sounds, etc.. (ot) Message:

Me and Moley have just put one of our songs online - a v. rough demo - tinny home-recording, and not at all drun'n'bass, but thought your might like a listen anyway, if your machine can manage the download.. Just learning some sound engineering technology, so better things to come soon, I hope. Nige the Moley enthusiast. [oops - screwed up the link - wait a minute...]

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:11:41 (EST) From: Nigel Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Ok - here's the link.. Message:

[ Stonewalling.. ]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:18:24 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: hamzen Subject: OKAY, you're naive ;) Message:

Hi Ham, hatever happened to the zen parts of his speeches about knowledge, and whatever happened to that enlightenment thing of going beyond the master to come back to the fullness of the moment in it's isness, which even he used to hint at occasionally? I wonder the same thing myself, all the time. This was never part of my satsang, never. Nor anyone I ever knew or heard speak. I left in late '80's (although not intentionally forever) because I thought it was time for me to cut my apron strings. I had spent 8 yrs as a non-stop devotee and realized it was contrary to individual growth of a person with the gift of knowledge. I would have barfed right on the spot if a premie would talked the way the trolls do. Seriously. That crap coming out of their mouth iscompletely contrary to the message of satsang. NO. That's pathetic co-dependency 101. I met a lot of bongos who had richer more enlightened things to say. As a matter of fact, they were walking the walk.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:10:09 (EST) From: Selene Email: None To: hamzen Subject: Re: Call me naive but Message:

Whatever you are you make some great music. Thanks for the last I just listened to them on the road to Mexico and back today. Autumn Leaves, nice. I do need reminders, my nature prefers the morbid and all but the rminders are all over and it's not a 'secret' that has to be revealed by some special teacher. Which is on topic in a sense. Music being a powerful catalyst for feel good feelings and who needs some guy sitting in an expensive business chair going on about it? I'll email one of these days, I've been off on my email lately, too many other computing things yakking at me. I wanna dance ! :)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:23:39 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: Selene Subject: Your timings excellent Message:

there some new stuff coming out at the mo that is wicked, as in seriously wicked. Biggest buzz, like electric, I've had for about three or four years. Got a tape of it to send you but can't find your address. I KNOW you'll love it, bit more uptempo, a lot more bootilicious, jus wicked. And thanks for the big up, always good to know someone gets turned on by that stuff. Re autumn leaves, yeah gorgeous, that period for that kind of sweet vibe was special for me, and showed me everything I always wanted the premie community and festivals to be, but never were, resonant, deep, gorgeous and for real.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:43:49 (EST) From: Selene Email: None To: hamzen Subject: will email postal address Message:

You are a sweetie. Thanks for being around. L, S

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 15:38:20 (EST) From: suchabanana Email: banana@curriedtofurkey.org/y To: All Subject: Thanks Message:

Thanks for everybody who has ever contributed constructively at the forums and epo. Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 00:36:39 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: suchabanana Subject: Ditto and Thank You Message:

for all of your asute insights and contributions, your presence here has helped me immensely in handling my issues surrounding the cult and M and my entrapment to them. Hope you had a happy day Such

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 14:28:35 (EST) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: All Subject: The Other Side of the Trainings Message:

Thanks to Katie for posting this from a premie who attended a couple of trainings with M and commented on some of the things John MacGregor said. I think this is a great addition to the discussion, and I can't help but have a few questions and comments of my own (I know everyone is very surprised by that :)) First off, I have heard from people who WERE in multiple trainings (John was not) that the training in Amaroo was the worst of them all. Very hard for M and the participants both. That's just a little bit of background. A couple of other notes: - the notion of 'leaders as a problem' is central to the training, and it has proven, for me, to be an invaluable life experience. The premise is that people like to have leaders, because they get to abdicate responsibility for decisions, and hand them off to the leader, and then they get to sit around and criticize the leader's decisions rather than participate in a process in any useful fashion. So, it was more a call to action and responsibility than anything else. - John rightly asks the question 'why have people withdrawn from service 'en masse' now that the trainings are finished?' He is not wrong in stating that this happened. He is wrong in his assumption WHY this occurred (at least in this country). My experience, from talking to friends, was that it was more about getting in touch with the feeling of WHY one was participating so heavily in service than it was about some vague malaise. The malaises were not so subtle. There are people who feel aspects of the training were abusive (especially the facilitators, more so than M). No doubt about it. BUT...most of the people who withdrew did so more because they realized their hearts weren't really in it. It was more in their heads and an obligation, and I think the trainings sort of opened up their eyes to this. So, I find this change rather healthy - as do the friends of mine who went in this direction. - John also paints the training participants as the 'higher ups' or 'people in power'. This was not entirely true. There were also people like me, who really HAD no power or position in the organization at the time. Attempts were made to find people who could think out of the box, were not afraid to stick their necks out, and who were off the beaten path. So, for a lot of US people (probably about 1/3 or more of the participants), we got MORE involved after the training. Not out of fear, but because the bizarro world of service had been exposed for what it is. For so many years people had been pretending 'everything is all right' all in his name. When you walked out of the training, the one thing you knew was that everything is NOT all right. Again, to me, that was incredibly healthy. It promoted logic, honesty and self-reflection. - Its interesting that in John's training all the 'games' were unwinnable. In mine, almost all were completed successfully by the group. Mind you, they were mostly very simple exercises. I dont know what to make of the scapegoat story. I know that it wasn't done in either training in the US - and I did get separate verification that it WAS done in Amaroo. There was a 'firing' exercise in one of the US trainings but the story was a bit different. Each team was supposed to fire 'the weakest link'. There were probably 10 teams. I know that one guy very definitely freaked out and split, and M sent a couple of people out to find him. That doesn't excuse it, I'm just letting you know what I know. All this is just detail. Bottom line is, I cannot find anything to argue with in terms of the principles of the training. Honesty, respect, no brain farts, brevity (which translated there into the 10 second rule), I forget most of the others, but they were not disturbing. The notion of unanimity is tougher, but is achievable in most circumstances, or so its seemed. Actually, this reminds me of the statement of John's that presents a huge distortion of what actually happened - which is the whole question of 'if its 11 o'clock in the morning, and the team says its dark outside, what do you say?' The point of that exercise was, if it isn't germane to what you're doing, and if no harm is caused by agreeing to that, agree to it. In other words, 'don't sweat the small stuff'. A corralary, which I was just recently reminded of is the 'shoes, socks, pants' example. It is instructive in understanding the context. M said take off your shoes. Everyone took off their shoes. Then - 'take off your socks'. People get a little squeamish, possible odors and all, but then take off their socks. Then - 'take off your pants'. Followed quickly by 'DO NOT take off your pants'. Why? Because there are lines you must not cross. When something is wrong, and you know it will be wrong, DO NOT just go along with it. They [the trainings] were too harsh for many people - even people who you would think could handle it. I had a long talk with a friend of mine about it. It was definitely her opinion that more than a few people found the trainings abusive (although most of them were able to put it all in context and take the good from it, while leaving the rest). I guess I was just in a different place. I dunno. I do also know a bunch of people who had similar experiences to me. I appreciate that post, because it seems like the person who wrote it is trying to makes sense of this stuff. It seems like this person would be someone who would think EPO and the Forum are great additions and extremely healthy, because they are about open and questioning analysis. Does he or she? Mind you, it does appear that this person, like most of us do when we are trying to fit our beliefs into realities that don't necessarily support them, presents explanations that get more and more complicated. I tend to think that's a sign of rationalizaton. We all do it, but when you have someone like Maharaji who isn't required to explain any motivations whatsoever, they tend to become a little irrational, because one of the major players, Maharaji, really isn't part of the 'team,' only everyone else is. That, of course, if doomed to failure, and probably the main reason M and his organizations have never gotten anything off the ground and why there has always been this bizarre 'service frenzy' in that cult. Ultimately success or failure is entirely based on M's arbitrary, personal opinion, something no one is ever sure of, and hence everyone spins in circles trying to overdue the 'effort.' You can't have an organization built on 'teams' if Maharaji isn't an equal member of the 'team.' It doesn't make any sense. Interesting too, that there is this idea that the trainings were 'abusive' but they benefitted people, and there doesn't appear to be any kind of organized discussion about how to end the 'abuse.' Does M think they were 'abusive?' Has he gotten that feedback? What is the 'team' going to do about the 'abuse,' and how can the team do anything about it if somebody who isn't a part of the team is instigating the abuse? Also, if the trainings were about getting people to question old ways of doing things, how does that square with the fact that the most pervasive way of doing things, that M is always right and can't be criticized is not questioned, and is, in fact, reinforced by the trainings? I also think the extremely strained rationalization for what that 'if the team ways it's day when it's night' concept was about is very dangerous. To suggest that it only applies to situations that 'aren't important' is ripe for even more abuse. Who decides what is 'important' if the 'team' disagrees, whomever the team is? And if, ultimately M decides, or can overrule any team decision, doesn't that disempower people to an extreme extent, and mean that the team can never be secure in any decision it makes, even if all the team processes are carried out? And if the point is to discourage disagreement on things that aren't important, doesn't that tend to discourage it in all cases, instilling fear that somebody is complaining about something that doesn't matter, even when it does? Isn't it important to always encourage airing of concerns in a 'team' situation? That certainly is my experience in those situations, and actually that's what takes up most of the time -- reaching concensus, but it is time very well spent. I wish this person would come here and discuss this, and I wish he or she would encourage all those other people he or she is talking to to do the same. If M is trying to teach people to take their own responsbility for these things, and take action they see appropriate, what is the fear about that? Whom does this person fear will find out?

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:19:22 (EST) From: G Email: None To: Joe Subject: 'leaders as a problem' Message:

'...the training in Amaroo was the worst of them all.' To say that the other trainings were not as bad is faint praise. 'Very hard for M and the participants both.' That's not good, 'Knowledge' ia supposed to bring peace of mind, not give people a hard time. 'leaders as a problem' I doubt very much that M presented his dictatorial rule as a problem. In the past, what has been his typical reaction to being challenged? Hasn't he repeatedly told premies to obey him without question? 'There are people who feel aspects of the training were abusive (especially the facilitators, more so than M). No doubt about it.' Well, there you have it, corroboration from a premie. To say that M was less abusive is also faint praise. And whose orders were the facilitators following? It's rather naive to think they were just acting on their own, with M present. Actually, it's beyond naive, it's a rationalization. 'it was more about getting in touch with the feeling of WHY one was participating so heavily in service' That's what they say. 'I dont know what to make of the scapegoat story. I know that it wasn't done in either training in the US - and I did get separate verification that it WAS done in Amaroo. There was a 'firing' exercise in one of the US trainings but the story was a bit different. Each team was supposed to fire 'the weakest link'.' I think the premie DOES know what to make of the scapegoat story. This kind of wording is really an implicit admission that it almost certainly happened. A bit different? Sounds the same to me, what's the difference? 'the weakest link' 'scapegoat' same thing. Who said there was a problem? M did, and, as usual, he didn't accept any blame. No, it's got to be a problem with the teams, right? Couldn't be him. No, he's perfect, he's god-in-a-bod. Or so he claims. Did anyone question him, challenge him on the notion that there was a 'weakest link' (i.e. scapegoat) in each team? Sounds like there was a problematic leader staring them in the face. He's the weakest link of them all. 'if its 11 o'clock in the morning, and the team says its dark outside, what do you say?' The point of that exercise was, if it isn't germane to what you're doing, and if no harm is caused by agreeing to that, agree to it. In other words, 'don't sweat the small stuff'. There IS harm in agreeing with what you know to be false, regardless of how 'germane' it is. It's not 'small stuff' to lie to yourself, to have your mind controlled like this. And who is to decide what is 'germane'? This mind control tactic, including the rationalization, is used by other groups. They can start out with something that seems trivial, and you rationalize 'Oh, what's the harm'. But it doesn't stop there. 'M said take off your shoes. Everyone took off their shoes. Then - 'take off your socks'. People get a little squeamish, possible odors and all, but then take off their socks. Then - 'take off your pants'. Followed quickly by 'DO NOT take off your pants'. Why? Because there are lines you must not cross. When something is wrong, and you know it will be wrong, DO NOT just go along with it.' Not a single person disobeyed him. Scary. They got 'a little squeamish' (minimalizing the problem) i.e. they didn't want to take off their socks, but they complied anyway, they just went along with it. Nobody asked 'Why?' Everyone obeyed. M crossed the line, a long time ago. 'put it all in context and take the good from it, while leaving the rest' What 'context' could possibly justify abuse? And I don't buy the claim that they left the rest, i.e. that no harm was done, that they got over the abuse. The way to start getting over an abusive relationship is to get out. That's step one. This is like a woman saying 'Oh, he beats me up, but he pays the bills and sometimes he says he loves me.'

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:24:59 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: G Subject: Great post, G [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:26:18 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: G Subject: Well said, G! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 21:46:19 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: The Other Side of the Trainings Message:

Hi Joe - I agree with you about the conflict between 'no leaders' and M as ultimate leader. I think this is a big issue - and perhaps M should be a PARTICIPANT in one of the trainings :) to correct the idea that Maharaji is always right (or as you said, can overrule any team decision.) I feel very strongly, as I'm sure you know, that Maharaji himself should be accountable. Certainly he should be called on his temper tantrums! However, I do understand the 'day versus night' example, having been in many meetings that got sidetracked by a big argument about something completely irrelevant to the purpose of the meeting. For example, we have a weekly meeting at work to plan out what we are going to do for the week, who needs the truck, who needs help, etc. and sometimes these meetings get WAY bogged down in discussions of something that's off the subject. For example, two guys will spend 15 minutes debating the history of ownership of a certain piece of equipment when the answer has NO relevance to the use of that piece of equipment. This is very irritating and a waste of time. However, I work with practical things, so it's easier to tell what is irrelevant and what is not. You asked: It seems like this person would be someone who would think EPO and the Forum are great additions and extremely healthy, because they are about open and questioning analysis. Does he or she? I can't really answer that FOR the person, as I don't want to put words in their mouth, and I have never asked that specific question. However, I know this person feels that there is a dominant paradigm on this forum, and that input that doesn't fit into this paradigm is either stifled or attacked. Thus it's not truly 'open'. And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but I can't disagree. On this forum, we discuss and make assumptions about a lot of things re M's world that we don't have the facts about, and there seems to be a general consensus on this forum to put the WORST possible face on things - just as premies tend to spin to put the BEST possible face on things (for example, 'Please Consider This', and similar sites.) So it's difficult for reasonable premies to come and 'discuss' because they feel the deck is already stacked against them, and very few people here are going to listen to a contradictory point of view. In re the fear of being outed - I don't know all the reasons but I imagine they differ for every individual - including the ex-premies who post here who prefer to remain anonymous. I would imagine there is some fear of CAC-like reprisal among premies as well as ex-premies, and I don't think that's unfounded. Also, some people can be identified by their IP addresses, and that deters posting as well. Take care, Joe - Love, Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 08:24:47 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: The Fallacy of the Middle Ground Message:

However, I know this person feels that there is a dominant paradigm on this forum, and that input that doesn't fit into this paradigm is either stifled or attacked. Thus it's not truly 'open'. And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but I can't disagree. On this forum, we discuss and make assumptions about a lot of things re M's world that we don't have the facts about, and there seems to be a general consensus on this forum to put the WORST possible face on things - just as premies tend to spin to put the BEST possible face on things (for example, 'Please Consider This', and similar sites.) So it's difficult for reasonable premies to come and 'discuss' because they feel the deck is already stacked against them, and very few people here are going to listen to a contradictory point of view. You say the damndest things sometimes, Katie. There you go again, equating cult members' perspectives on their cult with the perspectives of people who've left the cult behind! You make me want to say 'paradigm, shmaradigm, what about reality?' In all honesty, I think your thinking suffers from one big case of the: Fallacy of the Middle Ground Also Known as: Golden Mean Fallacy, Fallacy of Moderation Description of Middle Ground This fallacy is committed when it is assumed that the middle position between two extremes must be correct simply because it is the middle position. this sort of 'reasoning' has the following form: Position A and B are two extreme positions. C is a position that rests in the middle between A and B. Therefore C is the correct position. This line of 'reasoning' is fallacious because it does not follow that a position is correct just because it lies in the middle of two extremes. This is shown by the following example. Suppose that a person is selling his computer. He wants to sell it for the current market value, which is $800 and someone offers him $1 for it. It would hardly follow that $400.50 is the proper price. This fallacy draws its power from the fact that a moderate or middle position is often the correct one. For example, a moderate amount of exercise is better than too much exercise or too little exercise. However, this is not simply because it lies in the middle ground between two extremes. It is because too much exercise is harmful and too little exercise is all but useless. The basic idea behind many cases in which moderation is correct is that the extremes are typically 'too much' and 'not enough' and the middle position is 'enough.' In such cases the middle position is correct almost by definition. It should be kept in mind that while uncritically assuming that the middle position must be correct because it is the middle position is poor reasoning it does not follow that accepting a middle position is always fallacious. As was just mentioned, many times a moderate position is correct. However, the claim that the moderate or middle position is correct must be supported by legitimate reasoning. Examples of Middle Ground Some people claim that God is all powerful, all knowing, and all good. Other people claim that God does not exist at all. Now, it seems reasonable to accept a position somewhere in the middle. So, it is likely that God exists, but that he is only very powerful, very knowing, and very good. That seems right to me. Congressman Jones has proposed cutting welfare payments by 50% while Congresswoman Shender has proposed increasing welfare payments by 10% to keep up with inflation and cost of living increases. I think that the best proposal is the one made by Congressman Trumple. He says that a 30% decrease in welfare payments is a good middle ground, so I think that is what we should support. A month ago, a tree in Bill's yard was damaged in a storm. His neighbor, Joe, asked him to have the tree cut down so it would not fall on Joes new shed. Bill refused to do this. Two days ago another storm blew the tree onto Joe's new shed. Joe demanded that Joe pay the cost of repairs, which was $250. Bill said that he wasn't going to pay a cent. Obviously, the best solution is to reach a compromise between the two extremes, so Bill should pay Joe $125 dollars.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:12:42 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thanks, but disagree on a couple things Message:

Thanks Katie, very interesting, but I have to disagree on a couple of things. However, I do understand the 'day versus night' example, having been in many meetings that got sidetracked by a big argument about something completely irrelevant to the purpose of the meeting. For example, we have a weekly meeting at work to plan out what we are going to do for the week, who needs the truck, who needs help, etc. and sometimes these meetings get WAY bogged down in discussions of something that's off the subject. I also have been in meetings that can get sidetracked, but usually that's because there isn't a consensus on what the purpose of the meetings is. If there was, that would happen a lot less. Plus, I think many meetings aren't necessary, and mostly a waste of time, iin my experience. But moreover, those abusive 'trainings' were for the purpose of transforming people into working teams without leaders; it wasn't to figure out who drives the truck that week. So, in that situation, I still maintain that the 'day is night' thing is completely innappropriate and very dangerous, because it cuts to the core of one of the essential elements of being part of a team, and that's that people on the team don't repress or downplay what they think is important, for fear the team won't think it is. A team is a group of individuals functioning cooperatively. It's not something that takes on a life of its own, or at least it shouldn't. It's even worse in the cult situation, because Maharaji says he is about empowering people, but is actually diametrically opposed to that in the most essential sense. So one cannot even be sure the 'team' won't be undermined, nor even what the 'team' actually is. However, I know this person feels that there is a dominant paradigm on this forum, and that input that doesn't fit into this paradigm is either stifled or attacked. And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but I can't disagree. I think there is a difference between being 'attacked' and being 'challeneged.' I don't disagree that there is a paradigm here that Maharaji is the leader of a cult and essentially bad news, and many ex-premies feel, appropriately, very ripped off by Maharaji, so it's hard for them to accept much positive about him. I think that should be expected, and the very nature of the Forum means that is going to continue to exist. But having said that, I think if a premie comes here and at least appears to honestly try to explain and discuss the issues, they get treated pretty well, although it will be confronting. Take Erika Andersen for example. She came here, had a discussion, tried to correct some things and wasn't really attacked. She was disagreed with, and I think to premies if you disagree with or attack Maharaji, they take it very personally, so maybe she did feel attacked, I don't know. I really believe that only premies who actually attack ex-premies, get attacked themselves, in the true sense of that word. The other problem Erika had is that,like almost all premies, she had no more real information that we did, and probably we have more than she did. She didn't really have anything to add, and even said she was going to go on a search to get answers, which I don't believe she ever got. And, unfortunately, it appears what she decided to do was just avoid the real issues while pretending to actually be dealing with them. That was what PCT was all about. If a group of premies came here, like your friend and whoever else he or she is talking to, for a rational discussion about M and what he's about, and sharing actual information, they would get treated a lot better than either you or they think, and I think all of us would benefit from it. The result is there is only ONE side talking, and that's the ex-premies. I have no doubt that we have very skewed views of things, but it takes two to tango, or something like that. It takes someone who actually cares enough about what they are involved in to throw it into the mix. That's what we haven't seen. Instead, it's just disengagement, and setting up websites with generalized put-downs of ex-premies, saying, in the most disingenous and ridiculous fashion, that all the (unspecified) things we are saying are lies. From what I can see, I think premies are just as confused about what they are involved in as we are, and so they have a very, very hard time even explaining it. So, they don't want to talk about it in any situation in which they might be questioned, especially by someone who has actual information, and is critical, like an ex-premie. Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving. It's actually one of my favorite holidays because it's pretty secular. Joe, the Secular Humanist I can understand the fear of CAC attacks, but I think that has been shown to be largely a paper tiger, despicable and foul though it is.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:32:27 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Thanks, but disagree on a couple things Message:

Hi Joe - I hate meetings - and prefer that they be as short as possible, without irrelevant discussions, so maybe I'm biased about the black vs white thing. You wrote: if a group of premies came here, like your friend and whoever else he or she is talking to, for a rational discussion about M and what he's about, and sharing actual information, they would get treated a lot better than either you or they think, and I think all of us would benefit from it. I hate to be pessimistic, but my friend did try to post here at least once to correct some out of date information, and got jumped on immediately. It wasn't a good experience, and it can get very frustrating. Basically, I don't think people give reasonable premies enough ROOM on this forum (I'm not talking about the troll/flamers here). This may be unavoidable, but I know that premies who have tried have gotten many questions and challenges to their posts that it's qutie overwhelming. And even though you say 'challenges' rather than 'attacks', sometimes the 'challenges' come with a very combative attitude, which is hard to deal with when you are just one person talking to many. And in re attacking premies who post here - there seem to always be someone who yells 'brainwashed cult member', or whatever (I realize that some people don't like premies to post here at all, so that's bound to happen.) This happened with Erika, even though most people were polite. Someone proposed a while ago that there could be an icon for people to put on their posts if they didn't want to go through the heavy-duty 'challenging' that goes on here. I think this might be a good idea, especially if one would like premies to feel that they CAN post here and maybe even be listened to. (Maybe we could use +) or something?) Re the CAC attacks - it seems like a couple of people got really hurt because of the personal nature of the attacks. Certainly Way has stopped posting on the forum, which is a loss for us. So I'm not sure it's as much of a paper tiger as you say. I'm glad you had a good Thanksgiving - I have that 'dysfunctional family holiday' syndrome, and Thanksgiving was always one of the absolute WORST, so I'm always glad when it's over! Love, Katie

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:47:11 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Katie Subject: I Fess Up...It's a Cult... Message:

Katie, you said, And in re attacking premies who post here - there seem to always be someone who yells 'brainwashed cult member', or whatever (I realize that some people don't like premies to post here at all, so that's bound to happen.) This happened with Erika, even though most people were polite. That was me who said ''you're in a cult'' to Erika and then I told her husband off, too. I lost patience. I don't say this in defense of myself. The forum is full of people in all stages of exiting the cult, there's that word again. Then there are the premies who come here to talk, apologize for m, or argue. Sometimes difficult to distinguish, especially in these days of the trolls. I've learned (and still am learning) that it's important not to put that particular word in premies' faces, but it's hard. I am not involved with the differences you and Jim have and plan to stay out of it. It's not my business. How's that for middle ground, Jim? Anyway, Katie, you would love the way I conduct meetings. I insist on an agenda, and I keep the agenda items in order and am quite strict about it. I also think meetings are a time-wasting thing that modern humans have invented to get out of working--I'm very task oriented. Stop talking and let me work! I have been criticized for being so strict in meetings... Hope you're well, I'm recovering from preparing a large meal...I love doing it, but today's my day of rest...and catching up on all these posts. Be well, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:20:44 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Well, since you asked ..... Message:

I am not involved with the differences you and Jim have and plan to stay out of it. It's not my business. How's that for middle ground, Jim? It's just great ..... or, I guess I could say it sucks. Much as Katie LOVES to say otherwise, this is not a personal issue between us. I feel like I'm just doing what I'd do with anyone, responding to their words, agreeing, disagreeing, questioning, etc. Katie says things that no other ex here says. Or, in the rare eventuality that they do, they most certainly get challenged. That's all I'm doing, following up on Katie's words which, as I've said, I take issue with. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I can't help but think that if you forgot for a moment it was Katie who spoke up for all the 'reasonable' premies who don't get a fair hearing here: However, I know this person feels that there is a dominant paradigm on this forum, and that input that doesn't fit into this paradigm is either stifled or attacked. Thus it's not truly 'open'. And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but I can't disagree. On this forum, we discuss and make assumptions about a lot of things re M's world that we don't have the facts about, and there seems to be a general consensus on this forum to put the WORST possible face on things - just as premies tend to spin to put the BEST possible face on things (for example, 'Please Consider This', and similar sites.) So it's difficult for reasonable premies to come and 'discuss' because they feel the deck is already stacked against them, and very few people here are going to listen to a contradictory point of view. you'd most definitely have something to say in response. No other ex says this kind of shit. Is it because no other ex is as honest and fair as Katie? Is that it? Because if that's the case, it's time for all of us to re-examine a few things. Or, alternatively, is Katie wrong? That's what I say. What's YOUR opinion?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:46:34 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: Thanks, but disagree on a couple things Message:

I hate to be pessimistic, but my friend did try to post here at least once to correct some out of date information, and got jumped on immediately. It wasn't a good experience, and it can get very frustrating. This is interesting. But maybe he or she should try it again, perhaps with a little intro about his or her concerns. I don't know how he or she presented the 'correction' but that might have been part of it. But I also think there is more going on with premies than just fear of not being treated well. It's deeper than that; it's a basic uneasiness of even talking about what this all is about to them. For some reason, after you get out, it gets really easy. I think that's because there is no longer any fear of displeasing M by saying the wrong thing, presenting him in the wrong way, or revealing some 'secret' information that you aren't supposed to and would piss him of if he knew. It is weird, though. If they can make it through one of those abusive trainings, one would think they could handle a few cyber-attacks. I also think it would be better if premies did it as a group, so they wouldn't be outnumbered. Perhaps even starting their own website that allowed ex-premies to participate. It is very amazing to me that hasn't happened. Again, I think it's because there is a fear it would displease M. So, we continue to have one side engaged and one side disengaged. Why is that? One reason is that there isn't really much interest in answering the concerns of exes. They just want us to go away, or at least to just shut up. Re CAC, that's true about Way, although I'm not sure that is the only reason. Sir Dave is back, however, and I'm so glad to see that.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:05:44 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Thanks, but disagree on a couple things Message:

Hi Joe - You wrote: But I also think there is more going on with premies than just fear of not being treated well. It's deeper than that; it's a basic uneasiiness of even talking about what this all is about to them. For some reason, after you get out, it gets really easy. I think that's because there is no longer any fear of displeasing M by saying the wrong thing, presenting him in the wrong way, or revealing some 'secret' information that you aren't supposed to and would piss him of if he knew. You may be right - I don't know. Certainly I think there is WAY too much secrecy within M's organization - so much so that premies read the forum to get information. You wrote: It is weird, though. If they can make it trough one of those abusive trainings, one would think they could handle a few cyber-attacks. Well, for some people, it's not the attacks per se, it's the feeling of 'why bother if no one is going to listen to me anyway'. Sort of how I would feel posting on something like a Rush Limbaugh discussion group :). You wrote: I also think it would be better if premies did it as a group, so they wouldn't be outnumbered. Perhaps even starting their own website that allowed ex-premies to participate. It is very amazing to me that hasn't happened. Again, I think it's because there is a fear it would displease M. So, we continue to have one side engaged and one side disengaged. Why is that? Don't ask me :). I do think there is too much fear of 'displeasing M'. One reason is that there isn't really much interest in answering the concerns of exes. They just want us to go away, or at least to just shut up. I'm not sure this is true. I think it's probably true about things like Maharaji's personal life - there are people for who that doesn't matter. And the financial stuff, too. But I think some premies are quite concerned about the fact that many people who are or have been involved with Maharaji's organization are emotionally damaged. And I think the more realistic premies realize that ex-premies are not going to go away, or shut up. (Attempts to make this happen, such as CAC, etc. are not what I'd call 'reasonable'.) I'm glad Sir D is back too. Love, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:36:45 (EST) From: Michael McDonald Email: None To: Joe Subject: Thanks to Joe and Anon Message:

for an interesting take on the trainings, and to Katie for passing on the message. This premie passes on a fair and accurate account of the trainings, obviously with a take on it different to mine or John's. Perhaps Katie could thank this person, at least on my behalf, for making an attempt to come to grips with the issues at stake in an intelligent and concerned manner. I think these observations by Anon are important: 'My experience, from talking to friends, was that it was more about getting in touch with the feeling of WHY one was participating so heavily in service than it was about some vague malaise. The malaises were not so subtle. There are people who feel aspects of the training were abusive (especially the facilitators, more so than M). No doubt about it. BUT...most of the people who withdrew did so more because they realized their hearts weren't really in it. It was more in their heads and an obligation, and I think the trainings sort of opened up their eyes to this. So, I find this change rather healthy - as do the friends of mine who went in this direction.' I think this was the case for some - it definitely made me question my level of commitment before I went on later to consider why I had any commitment in the first place. In my case it was not a sense of obligation, I was making an attempt to get more deeply involved and found that process facilitated at great speed. After the 99 training made me examine my commitment - and at this stage there was no turning away - there came the international 'clean-up', when we were asked to look at how real our dedication was. I decided mine wasn't solid enough to warrant me being on the international PR team, and I resigned. It was only months after I then began to deconstruct the training experience, which then led to me deconstructing the bases of my personal experience (phew!). So as I said before, Mr Rawat got the people he wanted, and he should be happy with that outcome. Let the rest come and post on F7 - 'the dogs bark but the caravan moves on', or so you would think. Anon also finds value in training rules like 'brain fart' and 'ten second'. They definitely had their value for speeding meetings along - I've always liked the idea of having meetings standing up, I'm pathologically unfond of meetings - but they're also extremely restrictive, manipulative and artificial. More egalitarian decision-making comes about through team consensus, the kind of technique the Australian green left uses, which allows lot of screaming and yelling but in the end everyone 'owns' the decision fully rather than abandoning their individuality to a team entity which doesn't really exist. Ha, there I go again, waffling on about egalitarianism. Silly old unreconstructed socialist fart. Michael

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:35:36 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: Michael McDonald Subject: Thanks, Michael Message:

And I'll pass on your thanks to 'anon' as well :). I also thought it was an honest and intelligent account of one person's experience - glad you got something out of it. Take care, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:16:33 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re trainings Message:

Couldn't agree more about your angle on team trainings Joe, but I would say that what amounts to institutional abuse is endemic. I've come across very few trainings genuinely run along those lines, managers in general just want to get more for nothing in my experience. The social services managers I came across (the most recent) were also as likely to switch angles the way gm does when the political breeze switched. But, and this is a huge but, sooner or later some kind of accountability takes place, even if the replacement is a direct clone. GM must tear his hair out, he assumes he always knows which way it should switch before the premies, he then has to convince them, but their wariness/fear because he is never a team member and always a Ted Turner/Murdoch, guarAntees failure and limited success before the failure. But of course gm can never see the structural deficiencies, so it's a series of frustrations for him. What a life eh, just to keep a roof over his head and an extended family happy. Poor bugger, and all the while forgetting how gorgeous it can be to be alive, how ironic.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:21:04 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Fun News :) (for the braindead) Message:

This just in on ELK: Fun news :) Last night Maharaji spoke for over an hour at a regional event in Westchester, New York. And then answered questions from his 600 plus students gathered there from the New York- New England region only. Truly a surprise visit ! What a treat :) He had us all laughing and crying to our hearts content. To be a living student of the living master giving the Knowledge of life is everything, more than the best dream anyone could ever come up with. Thank you Maharaji for making it possible for me , and anyone who wants, to completely fulfill this existence. From: Janice Wilson, Baldwinsville, NY

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 15:21:46 (EST) From: suchabanana Email: banana@mcsweeneys.com To: Jim Subject: and on the left: Message:

last night I watched basketball for over an hour on television. And then shared some champagne with a friend. Truly a surprise visit! What a treat. We were chillin' in front of the fireplace to our hearts/minds' content. To be breathing, conscious, relishing the innumerable discoveries and joys of this universe and of awareness itself - and living in a democratic environment, as a free-thinking, independent individual. Better than a dream, in fact. Then, going to bed last night, amidst a howling wind storm. Closed my eyes -- and the light was very bright! No need for poking eyeballs. Thank you, oh cosmic universal energy, for making everything possible, and for anyone who wants, to completely fulfill this this this dat dat dat da da da whatever... Q: 'this existence' logically implies the existence of 'that existence.' So, what's the difference between this existence and that existence? I mean there's existence, but now it's become 'this existence'. Now, we've got 'this life.' What's 'that life?' What's 'these lives as opposed to those lives?' What's 'a life' as compared with 'the life'? What's 'this life' as compared with 'this existence?' What's this and that all about? Q: Is it just ignorance or is it downright apathy? phlegmie A: I dunno and I don't care..., by HIS grace, His mercy, His riches, His agya, HIS... er, that understanding, that love, the possibility, that ad nauseum... like, Didn't marji learn adjectives and adverbs in grade school? He traffics in articles: i.e. that massa, this life, that fulfillment, the knowledge, the one, this gift, this existence. Now, his twisted appropriation of certain words and their meanings has steadily been rotely parroted like a holy mantra by doggie-devotees. Well, obviously, it's always been in good fun, whenever I have referred to dat massa, da massa blasta, dat massa baiter, dat gwatitude, dat appweciation, dose donations, dat participation, da yacht, dose jets, dat shell corporation, dose phlegmies, dose Maharajiavellian tactics, dose Rawrats, dat rugu miragey, dat dat dat ... etc. But Janice is serious -- ly ill. ROFL P+L,

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 14:34:40 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sounds like an Amway Rally to me Message:

I confess, I went to one years ago when my friend tried to recruit me into the 'business' It was the same tone, though, some exalted persona on stage telling the rest of the peons how they can enjoy and fullfill their live's more by following certain criteria. They laid it all out in humorous and serious scenario and the converted left the hall a few dollars short but feeling once again a renewed sense of purpose and mission towards the fullfillment of their life's dreams. The message might be different but the JuJu works the same, when will they ever learn?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:11:48 (EST) From: JHB Email: brauns@apollo.lv To: Brian Smith Subject: Amway Rallies Message:

I was also persuaded to attend an Amway rally in Birmingham, UK, a few years ago by a premie couple who were (are?) friends of mine (Dave and Jenny - if you are reading this get in touch). The similarities with Maharaji were so obvious, but it still took me a couple of years to leave the cult. I refused to stand when the MC asked all 'first-timers' to stand, even though my friends encouraged me to, and afterwards I explained why I thought the Amway model couldn't work for all participants and declined to continue. Amway did though get about $30 from me. John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:23:12 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: And how about a night on the town? Message:

Also from ELK: Dancing Sitting alone, my heart took me dancing. We giggled and laughed, without the voice of concept, laughing and giggling with you know who. My master washes me clean with many colors of love, removing the soil of concept and doubt. Jim Sakshaug Marblemount, Wa, USA

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 17:51:47 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: What's with the language ? Message:

That pseudo poetic sloppy lilt, doesn't even sound remotely like he got anything from it at all, whereas at least Janice sounds like somethings happening. That stilted language, so unnatural, bogus even, yeuch. I just forget sometimes how sad that culture was and is. Re the figures you questioned the other week, about a quarter of the way through the archives you bugger, on schedule for the figures I mentioned, but you made me doubt myself on that one, so blah de blah. Have you done any more global warming searches since? Don't forget the Romford Underground Chill Out Sessions this sunday, my mate 3form will be spinning some of the WICKED dark uk garage that's around at the mo, and being taken up by all the london pirate rasdio stations. Be there and wash yourself in the colours of love, removing the grime of cynicism. God did we rteally talk like that once, very worrying.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:46:42 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Frankly, I'm a bit worried for Ivette Message:

Any regular observer of the ELK herd knows Ivette from Brazil. How could you miss her? Like Janice, she's completely full of love. Recently, however, I've noticed that she's been spacing out a bit with that photography stuff. All those pretty pictures (and yes, some of them are 'breathtaking' -- did I say that?), but not so much sharing-from-the-heart. Once, she was right up there with Janice. Now, she's fallen behind. Query: Is Ivette almost an ex now? (just kidding, of course)

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 22:25:39 (EST) From: Searcher Email: None To: All Subject: Christmas ideas Message:

Rueter The anti-Christmas present? Tired of self-righteous Christians? A controversial new book to be published in time for Christmas could be just what you’re looking for. Published by I.M.Satan, 'The Thoughts of Jesus' turns the accepted view of the Saviour upside down. As Mr Satan says 'Most people haven’t read the Bible, they only think they have. In fact, they’ve been fed a carefully selected blend of platitudes and homilies that have created a completely false impression. Far from the 'turn the other cheek', do-gooder of Sunday school, Jesus was a no nonsense radical who didn’t suffer fools gladly'. Under headings such as 'Sexy Jesus' and 'The Lord’s chair', Mr Satan quickly debunks the idea of Jesus as a loving socialist, who had no interest in the material world. Example, what should you do when you want something but can’t afford it pay for it? Jesus doesn’t hesitate, he tells his followers 'Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her, loose them and bring them unto me. And if any man say ought unto you, ye shall say, The Lord hath need of them' (Matthew 21/2). Who’s going to argue with that? And how should you deal with life’s little disappointments? Check out 'Don’t get angry, get even'. Becoming hungry whilst out walking, Jesus 'saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, 'Let no fruit grow on thee henceforth forever' And presently the fig tree withered away (Matthew 21/19). Indeed 'The Thoughts of Jesus' reveals a far more 'in your face' character than most Christians would be happy to accept. Don’t like the service? He 'overthrew the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of them that sold doves' (Matthew 21//12) And heaven, choirs of angels in the sky? Jesus has a much better idea, heaven is 'ten virgins and one bridegroom' (Matt 25/1) Now that’s my kind of saviour. Come to me the smug, the moralistic and the holy, I've got something for you.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 14:50:32 (EST) From: The Finder Email: None To: Searcher Subject: Re: Christmas ideas Message:

Anyone who still quotes from the King James Version of the Bible is either a Fundamentalist or hasn't opened a Bible since they received it in Sunday School. As usual, few people here really know anything about Christianity.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:14:44 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: The Finder Subject: Alleluiah! I'm a christian Message:

I love Handel's Messiah and all that other great christian music, chorales, cantatas, masses etc. I just don't like all the other stuff like the religion.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:38:33 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: Searcher Subject: Aah the gm school of humour, so subtle Message:

Like him you probably find yourself amusing. What a sad pair of fuckers. Put you or him in a stand up comedy spot and you'd both be destroyed in less than five minutes. Weak, as in weak weak weak material. I'd recommend comedy training and no contact with premies and gm for a year, and you'd probably find your experience of meditation improving too.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:55:39 (EST) From: Pope Leo X Email: None To: Searcher Subject: Ha ha ha, Ho ho ho Message:

'What a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us.' -1513 Prem Rwat, 2001 'What a profitable superstition this fable of Perfect Master has been for us.'

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:18:06 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: Searcher Subject: nice mental ensalada NT Message:

yuck

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 22:29:51 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Searcher Subject: You're an asshole--Don't even bother reading above [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:15:09 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Correction -If you are as Dumb as Deborah.. Message:

Dont read the above from searcher. It will make your brain hurt! and worse still...you wont get it!

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:33:14 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: CW Subject: Aah the most intelligent man in the universe Message:

Of course if you were, and you'd truly experienced knowledge you'd know the most intelligent ones have no need to point out what they think is obvious to anyone less intelligent. They also might realize that some things they are just as naive about, those they take the piss out of will probably understand in a flash. But then as we know such awareness and sensitivity is way out of your league. Ahh well. business as usual I am not worthy

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:23:09 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: hamzen Subject: RecogniseSteve Waugh Message:

What can I say. Putting your faith in a bunch of plodders like the Pommy Ccricet team says a lot about your ability to anticipate pain Hamzen. Cmon, you seriously dont rate the Ice Queen do you?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:22:52 (EST) From: helper Email: None To: CW Subject: help to you Message:

help

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:18:00 (EST) From: Abi Email: None To: CW Subject: or why not just ignore all CW posts Message:

because they are essentially dishonest and meaningless. Coward for never contacting me CW. And stop bitching at Deb.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:22:19 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: or why not just ignore all CW posts Message:

I said below (and it seems to have been deleted) , that I dont send Email's to anyone here. What Dept do you work in? I will call you. I can get your number. I'd prefer if it came from you. Just the Dept..

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 10:47:25 (EST) From: Katie Email: None To: CW Subject: Cat, just get a Hotmail account! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:34:30 (EST) From: Abi Email: None To: CW Subject: Re: or why not just ignore all CW posts Message:

And I don't give out my work details given the CAC context. You can make an exception and email me and then I will give you my unlisted home number. But then I would have somesort of proof about who you are and I might use it against you and the evil ex premies will hound you blah, blah, blah. As Lennon said 'just give me some truth, all I want is the truth'.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:04:43 (EST) From: Michael McDonald Email: None To: Deborah Subject: I thought it was a good piece of Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:10:14 (EST) From: Michael McDonald Email: None To: Michael McDonald Subject: Try again: I thought it was a good piece of Message:

of spin doctoring compared to Searcher's usual efforts, though he/she fails to look further than a single gospel approved by the Roman empire some 300 years after the event. It shows this Jesus chappie as a man of action who wasn't afraid to mix it with the common people and imperil his life by confronting the establishment. Does he bear comparison with someone Searcher knows?

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:04:09 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Why would you say that, Deb? Message:

Deb, I'm not exactly sure where Searcher's coming from but it seems like he's just having a little fun with Jesus. Why would you call him an asshole? I don't get it.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:24:00 (EST) From: Lesley Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Why would you say that, Deb? Message:

If I read it correctly, Searcher is a Jesus believer who thinks that if he can broaden our ideas of how Jesus behaved, it will help us accept the way Mr Rawat behaves.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 15:55:25 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Lesley Subject: Exactly, Lesley Message:

Searcher/Roupell is a believer in the idea of a master. The master cannot be comprehended by us mere mortals and is not accountable to us.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:59:12 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jim Subject: Deb, probably thinks SC's trying to... Message:

...reinvent and rehabilitate himself as he has done before this time as Searcher. You know David R, I really sympathise with your trying to go cold turkey from the forum. You would make life a lot more civil, simple and pleasant for yourself if you posted as David Roupell or David R and stuck with that and just relaxed and enjoyed yourself without playing games with folk all the time. Sometimes you're really as irritating as a puppy who has not been house-broken yet. Deborah just happens to be a very fastidious house-keeper like me and untrained puppies bring out the worst in us. Now where's that goddammed rolled up newspaper?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 03:29:08 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: fair enough Pat Message:

I can dig that but believe me.. I would happily admit to being 'searcher' if I was. You gotta admit he's a clever fucker (and does considerably more research than lazy bugger me ever does...) Honestly, it ain't me... This beautiful shangri la called Australia is a small (peoplewise) country and it really isn't uncommon for two people to use the same kind of computer and the same isp. I'm sure Michael, John and Lesley would back me on this. There's only 3 major players in the game here and we're all going to them cos they're cheaper than the boutique isp can ever be. If it's alright with you Pat, I'll just stick to SC, as I have done. The reason is that she is an abberant creation of DR who I've heard is quite a nice, polite dude and probably wouldn't post here because...well you know. The often ropeable SC sometimes even shocks his ghostwriter host believe me! :)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 03:51:25 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: SC Subject: Re: fair enough Pat Message:

As long as you continue to play hide and seek games, fantasy games, let's pretend games, let's fudge a bit games (which includes every single word of your post to me above - it stinks of condescension and disrespect for common honesty, decency and courtesy) I will be your enemy. Let's face it I can't stand you but keep trying to be fair to you as I always have done to the handful of the ugly, silly, superficial braggards of this world. I detest braggards and boasters and supercillious twerps like you and your massa. I can't help it. Perhaps I need therapy to stop being so judgmental. Write that down in your CAC book. BTW, did you have anything to do with the CAC attacks? And who the hell are you trying to fool. Searcher's IP# is your IP#, 198.142.154.187. Plenty of people here have already traced it, you poor pathetic man.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:33:18 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Jim Subject: Wake up Jimbo...you don't get it? Message:

Funny that, the rest of us cottoned on to the sour humourless persona months ago. It attacks anything that isn't attacking Balyogeshwar Shri Sant Ji Maharaj. Wow what an intellect. You haven't realised that yet? There again, you'd probably befriend a rabid Pit Bull Terrier provided it bit MJ on the ankle. Get your shit together guys, if you don't have the perception and courage to identify and punish your own special brand of ex-premie rotten eggs then who the hell is gonna take you seriously? Now you know why I don't hang here anymore. SC - the special brand of premie rotten egg.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 12:04:26 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: SC Subject: Roupell Unmasked (revised) Message:

Now you know why I don't hang here anymore. Dave, anyone can query whitepages.au.com with your name and it shows your address and telephone number. It's really no big deal. I've posted my address here a couple of times. But it does allow me a little wiggle room if you get too obnoxious again, like you did with Abi. After all, I did specifically ask you to stay away after you repeatedly abused my friends. Oh, I know who your IPS is also. But Dave I'd rather see you go away without my having to bother folks who probably have better things to do. If that's asking too much well then, temper your tongue, take a clue from your tactful friend Carlos. Why don't you get some conversation going over at Life is Great? In other words, you mind your business and we will attend to our own. Your interference is causing some resentment. So how's things in number 8 anyway? Beautiful beaches there in Ocean Shores.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 07:29:53 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Beautiful beaches there in Ocean Shores. Message:

I was in Ocean Shores about 8 years ago. I didn't see any beaches but the people whose house I was staying in did back onto a river. I did stay at a premies' house, but would find it hard to beliueve that either of them are this areshole......still nothing would surprise me these days. By the way it wasn't number 8 I stayed at. Regards Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:46:05 (EST) From: Michael McDonald Email: None To: gerry Subject: No beaches at Ocean Shores, Gerry Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:23:48 (EST) From: helper Email: None To: SC Subject: SC, don't u get it? Message:

help

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:45:41 (EST) From: A fly on the wall Email: None To: SC Subject: SC sed Message:

SC said: 'Now you know why I don't hang here anymore.' DO TELL!!! YOU DON'T?? SINCE WHEN??

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 03:11:50 (EST) From: Since about 10 days ago Email: None To: A fly on the wall Subject: Today is an abba ration - I escaped mind control! Message:

my next cult programming is on sunday - should last another ten or so... :)

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:42:06 (EST) From: Quick, Nurse Email: None To: SC Subject: the irony injection! NT Message:

xx

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:42:01 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: SC Subject: I thought you'd gone already? Message:

David, Deborah's actually very light and upbeat. Sure, she hates M -- or at least the idea of M the fraudulent cult leader who took advantage of her -- and she also hates you but, what can I tell you? Your way-too-far-beside-the-point campaign against individual exes is pointless and boring. If you don't have anything better to talk about, maybe you really should consider breaking away from here even if it is the only place in the world where Maharaji's talked about openly. I'm not suggesting you break cold-turkey or anything. Maybe just take a step by eliminating the forum as your home page or something.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:01:22 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thanks Jim Message:

You're quite right, my post was a pointless waste of time, a silly dig at a post from a poster no self respecting devotee of love and truth would have anything to do with. I don't have EPO as a homepage and have restricted my access to one or two days a week, so I'm TRYING! But you know, love lingers, and as you know, there are some damn fine and extremely interesting people here. So one leaves gently. My campaign isn't against individuals, no way. I respond to posts, as they appear, and would have responded the same no matter who posted that reply to 'searcher'. It was mean, humourless, ugly and totally unwarranted.... as YOU obviously agree!! So, let's agree to agree.... and I'll be on my way :)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:10:16 (EST) From: Two kinds of post: Email: None To: SC Subject: Hit AND Run (nt) Message:

xx

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:31:50 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Two kinds of post: Subject: Yea and you're a real thrill too Message:

No name brand are you? I never buy no name brand items.....

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:35:31 (EST) From: See, I knew you'd Email: None To: SC Subject: still be around.. Message:

No name brand are you? Check the computer IDs and you'll figure out who's teasing you.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 00:55:17 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: See, I knew you'd Subject: Michael... you cad! Message:

I thought it was friendly fire. Have enjoyed your sane and objective offerings. Makes the forum worthwhile when the intelligent voices speak.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:02:31 (EST) From: Michael McDonald Email: None To: SC Subject: 'Sane and objective'? Message:

My reputation is slipping. Someone even said the other day The Echo's political coverage was 'balanced'.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:14:11 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Michael McDonald Subject: No, they just spelt 'boring' wrong! Message:

Though Mungo's decimation of the awful Howard is always wonderful reading. Pity he had not much better to say about the labour lads this week.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:17:28 (EST) From: Michael McDonald Email: None To: SC Subject: Mungo's never been keen on Crean NT Message:

xx

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