Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Nov 17, 2001 To: Nov 23, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


Deborah -:- The Inner Circle -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:43:02 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- the Trotskyite Cult -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:13:26 (EST)
__ Barbara -:- The Cult of Politics -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:44:15 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: The Cult of Politics -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:10:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Barbara -:- Re: The Cult of Politics -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:56:53 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Your term paper. You mean book! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:17:39 (EST)
__ __ Carl -:- Or a PhD dissertation -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:14:06 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- Or a website [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:51:29 (EST)
__ __ G -:- The Inner Circle -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:39:33 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: The Inner Circle -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:45:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ G -:- movies and reading -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:11:58 (EST)
__ Here's a -:- tentative title: -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:49:06 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- I got it! Ordinary JOE LOL -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:49:21 (EST)
__ __ PatD -:- ROTFLMAO...that's a good one [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:53:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: ROTFLMAO...that's a good one -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:27:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatD -:- Go for the essay. [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:11:09 (EST)

Nigel -:- CW and SC - a question... -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:23:44 (EST)
__ SC -:- That's a bit difficult Nige -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:11:26 (EST)
__ __ G -:- Is that a no? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:48:14 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Braggadoccio, Mr David Roupell -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:07:55 (EST)

Alledaine cpi -:- Internet Cult Faces Prosecution -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:04:40 (EST)
__ JohnT -:- Pagary, eh? That's bad, really baad. -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:13:00 (EST)
__ Nick -:- Rupert Warcener, my arse... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 03:36:39 (EST)
__ Cacaro -:- Can they affored a lawsuite? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:06:12 (EST)
__ John Macgregor -:- Interglacial Cult Faces Extinction? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:52:13 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- The legal threat's a sick joke -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 03:44:23 (EST)
__ G -:- Wacerner? what kind of name is that? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:48:01 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Elan Vital is well respected? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 20:32:35 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- E V not respected even in cult! Nice, Deb! [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:11:35 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Hysterical -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:30:21 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- Thanks for the laugh [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:16:55 (EST)
__ Badly written -:- troll posting -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:14:26 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Oh yeah, right -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:14:16 (EST)
__ __ salsa -:- juajuajuajuajua NT -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 20:22:35 (EST)

Philly Mole -:- M was asked real question at Phila. program! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 18:18:18 (EST)
__ Abi -:- wish he'd visit Perth -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:39:56 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- He's a poor liar -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:08:22 (EST)
__ busy bill -:- haha, blackfaced by epo [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:38:02 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- You did Good PM -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:40:17 (EST)
__ Mercedes -:- Re: M was asked real question at Phila. program! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:23:44 (EST)
__ __ D_Thomas -:- I'm surprised your intelligence isn't better! -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 10:31:04 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Hey Arsepick--M doesn't meditate -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:28:37 (EST)
__ __ __ G -:- very probable -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:21:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Do you know that he meditates? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:27:35 (EST)
__ __ __ Philly Mole -:- Re: I'm surprised your intelligence isn't better! -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 11:03:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Re: I'm surprised your intelligence isn't better! -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:05:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- No wonder K is really spreading!!! -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 12:10:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Maha is the Great I AM -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:22:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Mr. Thomas... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:53:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Very often -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:24:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You Miss the Point... -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 09:55:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- arbitrary eh? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:36:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- M was asked, not accused -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:35:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Translation? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:23:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Whats the Difference!! -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:49:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Re: I'm surprised your intelligence isn't better! -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:32:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- D_Thomas - interesting choice of words -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:26:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Yo Dreko -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:45:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: Yo Dreko -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:50:35 (EST)
__ __ G -:- more than just an opinion -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:00:21 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Yes, Mercedes -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:52:32 (EST)
__ __ PatD -:- Why do you want to know ? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:47:58 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Why do you want to know? Defensive! [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:22:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Keep Your Secrets - The Most Common Mistakes -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:59:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- the corrected links ... -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:06:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Great link, G! Thanks! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:58:30 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Did they say any more? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 18:37:05 (EST)
__ __ Philly Mole -:- Re: Did they say any more??? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:14:34 (EST)
__ __ __ G -:- was 'ex-premie.org' said? Did M reply? nt -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:03:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Oh darn -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:25:40 (EST)

Jim -:- Katie? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 15:35:54 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Thanks so much for avoiding this, Katie -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:48:55 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- You are rude, Jim -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 10:44:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Katie, may I interject -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:42:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Katie, may I interject -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:06:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- A CLASSIC (questionable) Katie comment! -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 08:02:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And ANOTHER thing .... -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 08:10:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- The medium is the message -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:28:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- It is black and white, Katie -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 14:17:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***BEST OF FORUM**** -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:29:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Oy vey, Mr Vader! -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:04:35 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- No, Katie, YOU are -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:02:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Fuck off, Jim -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 15:45:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Fuck off, Jim -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 17:00:58 (EST)
__ __ Barbara -:- Jim, Katie might be out of town for the holiday [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:31:17 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- No, I suspect Katie simply doesn't.... -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:46:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Actually, a bit of both, and a few other reasons -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 10:37:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Interesting, but very strained -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 14:06:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Well, how about me? I'm curious too! -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:15:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Next time I WON'T mention anything similar -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:20:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thank you, Katie for... -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:41:10 (EST)

Joe -:- Cult Website Update/Charles Glasser Jr. -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:46:36 (EST)
__ salam -:- Re: Cult Website Update/Charles Glasser Jr. -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:32:22 (EST)
__ bill -:- Charles G lied about his age. he is older [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:39:30 (EST)

Timmi -:- loathsome creature -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:33:23 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- Timmi, it's a registered church with ... -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 15:05:19 (EST)
__ __ Zelda -:- Re: Timmi -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 15:16:52 (EST)

Vicki -:- Gas for that jet of his -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:30:45 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- Cut to the chase -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 15:14:26 (EST)
__ __ JohnT -:- A picture of that jet -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 04:54:26 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Costs -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:20:49 (EST)
__ __ potential Questioner -:- Joe, What would You Ask.. -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 14:17:09 (EST)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Short and sweet question -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:42:35 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- MY question -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 17:58:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- good one, he would flip [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:47:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- I doubt you could... BUT -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 14:25:41 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Who the hell knows but it does mean money. -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:11:28 (EST)
__ gerry -:- My WAG -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:55:41 (EST)

Joe -:- Maharaji Cult Attack Websites -- Day 16 (over, for now) -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:34:05 (EST)
__ Chuck S. -:- BRAVO, G and Ulf! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 14:52:21 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Thanks to Ulf and others -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:29:08 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Many thanks to Ulf and others [nt] -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:42:45 (EST)
__ G -:- '411' got the phone number -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:27:10 (EST)
__ __ hamzen -:- Except they're getting desperate G -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 16:44:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Carl -:- Who do you suppose 'General Maximal' is? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:39:49 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Sorry, thanks to 411 -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:14:59 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- I'm so glad that has ended..... for now. -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:11:13 (EST)
__ __ ulf -:- Thanks , happy i could do something, nt. -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 18:29:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Ulf... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:53:54 (EST)

Salsa -:- OT identification cards? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 08:57:14 (EST)

Maharaji's dilemna -:- What to do, what to do? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 07:34:45 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- My Observation -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 14:18:58 (EST)

Post by John Macgregor -:- maharaji cult training sessions -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 06:15:14 (EST)

News Flash -:- M doing Northern California Event -:- Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:05:00 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Emergency Fundraisers -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:42:39 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Apart from the attendance fees... -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 14:14:42 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- Absolutely right on! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:50:04 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Finally -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:09:47 (EST)
__ __ From NY -:- Intimate events -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:47:37 (EST)
__ Fly on the wall -:- Re: M doing Northern California Event -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 02:11:14 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Gee Joe and Pat.... -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:21:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- No Nazi Party Card er SmartCard... -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:48:13 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Dern, SF is too far to ride -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:13:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Is he visiting TED Farkel's place? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 17:25:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Marianne have you been tippling agin??? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 17:42:52 (EST)
__ __ __ SF Registered Voter -:- To the Airport on Friday? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:25:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- To the Airport on Friday? Bad Idea... -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:35:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ SF Registered Voter -:- It's at a hotel, not the airport -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:39:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Airport Hilton -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:37:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ busybill -:- I'll be ready for his next tour [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:35:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Go for it! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:17:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Airport Hilton -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:39:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Marry Me Monica Banner? -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:30:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- How about 'I'm a brunette, what's wrong with me' -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 16:47:22 (EST)
__ __ Tim G -:- Many are chilled but few are frozen -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:50:10 (EST)
__ __ Tim G -:- Many are chilled but few are frozen -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:50:08 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Corporate Downsizing -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 03:44:15 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Kinda like the Rotary Club or somethin' -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:54:21 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- I got my phone tree message! -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:29:54 (EST)


Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:43:02 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Inner Circle
Message:
Guess what you guys. I just saw a Russian film in class called the Inner Circle. It's a true story about a movie projectionist who gets to run the projection at the Kremlin for Stalin. He went from being an ordinary person to being part of "The Inner Circle".

It was very eerie how it resembled the cult and the inner circle around Guess Who?

They even referred to Stalin as The Master. People had his picture hung in every room and would even kiss it. The projectionist was asked by his wife, 'who do you love more, me or Stalin', to which he responded matter of factly, 'Stalin'.

The staff at the Kremlin conducted everything around Stalin the same as the security and staff around Big Head. When Stalin would leave the room the staff got to sit in the Master's chair and eat the left over food (prashad). I'm telling you, it is really eerie.

Do you think I should write my term paper on the similarity of the Inner Circle and the MahaStalin cult?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:13:26 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: the Trotskyite Cult
Message:
I have a friend who was a member of the Socialist Workers Party, and I often thought about how much the party resembled a cult. (I attended a few meetings/lectures with him, subscribed to their paper, etc.)

They had no 'Maximum Leader,' but they subscribed to identical beliefs, derived their identity in large part to their Party membership, and viewed the world through the lens of their belief system.

They also tried to convert others to their group by selling subscriptions to their paper at political events. And they had that whole insider/outsider thing...one of their strategies was (is?) to infiltrate key unions, such as the Oil and Chemical Workers' Union. They would encourage members to move around the country to do this.

Years ago they closed their Denver office (and many others) to consolidate their dwindling membership in a few key cities.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:44:15 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: The Cult of Politics
Message:
Deb:

You could write a paper on the cult of politics, taking the salient hallmarks of being in a cult (that shouldn't be too hard to find around here) and tying them to the themes portrayed in the film. Then you could elaborate on the filmic techniques utilized to buttress and underscore the cult of personality around Stalin and his fawning underlings. (I assume if they weren't fawning, they'd be dead, or at least not in the film.)

Comparing Stalin to Maharaji would be a monster project which could drive you right around the bend.

Have you seen any Polish films yet? Fabulous films, esp. Kanal, which is wrenching to watch. I think there's another called Ashes and Diamonds (something like that) where the star of the film looks like a Polish James Dean. One thing I noticed was that almost all of the older Polish films I watched had white horses in them, just standing in the background or wandering across the scene. Like Italian 'white telephone' films, I started calling Polish films 'white horse' films.

No one could ever tell me why white horses were in Polish films, until one day at a party I met a born-in-Poland Polish man and I asked him. He told me that white horses were put in the films as a symbol of liberation. Viva la resistance! I doubt contemporary Polish films have white horses in them, but the older ones (around WWII era) certainly had them. Also, if you can, catch Polanski's first film, 'Knife in the Water.' (Hope I remembered the title correctly.)

Good luck with your paper. Sounds like fun. ;)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:10:32 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: The Cult of Politics
Message:
Thanks Barbara,

Thanks for your advice. I've pasted into a document of notes for this paper. I did a search on our video library and those polish films did not come up. I'm better off researcing cult of politics and personality cults, and using MahaStalin as one of my examples.

The thought-arresting efficacy of the training sessions are too similar for words. You should have seen the expressions on this actor's face. It was very premieish, indeed. And the control, fear, and obsession for only the finest that permeated the inner circle looked just like some close up and personal moments I've witnessed in Prem's World.

Have you ever done service for Maha's table or toilet? The detail of attention is inhumanely repulsive.

Again, thanks for thoughtful advice.

deborah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:56:53 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: The Cult of Politics
Message:
Hi Deb:

You probably already know about this site (internet movie data base www.imdb.com), but in case you don't, it's chock full of tons of films. It doesn't help with your present project, but might be useful in the future.

I'll have to check out this film. Whatever you decide to do, it'll be interesting.

Sounds like a fun project.

Also, Kanal (1957) and Ashes and Diamonds (1958) were directed by Andrzej Wajda; and Knife in the Water (1962) by Polanski.

Ciao
[ Internet Movie Data Base ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:17:39 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Your term paper. You mean book!
Message:
I wish I could write that term paper. What was the name of the movie?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:14:06 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Or a PhD dissertation
Message:
Say, 'The Psychodynamics of Coercive Influence in Authoritarian Regimes: The Cult in Culture' by I. C. DeLuyt.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:51:29 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Or a website [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:39:33 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: The Inner Circle
Message:
I don't know if it's the same film, but it's in English at Amazon.com You might be able to get it cheaper new elsewhere, but you can get it cheap used at Amazon, or try www.half.com. Stars Tom Hulce and Lolita Davidovich.
Search VHS for
The Inner Circle
It gets high ratings from the viewers.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:45:12 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Re: The Inner Circle
Message:
Hi G,

I think it was only done in English. 1991

Filmmaker: Andrei Konchalovsky (who had an affair with Shirley McLean)

Gorbachev gave the go-ahead for this film as part of his Glasnost which means Openmindness (roughly) in English. It allowed history to be shown as it was.

You watch a lot of movies? I can tell you read a lot.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:11:58 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: movies and reading
Message:
I watch about an average number of movies, I read mostly non-fiction, I don't read an enormous amount, probably somewhat more than average.
This sounds like a movie worth watching.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:49:06 (EST)
From: Here's a
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: tentative title:
Message:
'The Cult Of Power - Ascribing Superhuman Qualities To The Ordinary Joe'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:49:21 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Here's a
Subject: I got it! Ordinary JOE LOL
Message:
Sorry, it took me awhile. Still LOL. I'll think about that one.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:53:44 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Here's a
Subject: ROTFLMAO...that's a good one [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:27:35 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: ROTFLMAO...that's a good one
Message:
Hi PatD,

It was like, deja vuuuuuu I swear to Stalin.

Here's a review for those who don't want to click: But you'll miss a great PIC of the video
______________________________________________________________________

Review: Ivan Sanshin is a meek, married man working as a movie projectionist for the KGB in 1935 Russia. Sanshin is taken by the KGB to the Kremlin to show movies, primarily Hollywood features, to leader Joseph Stalin, a job he cannot discuss with anyone, even his wife.

Are we talking X-rated?

Under the spell of Stalin's personality, Sanshin sees only what he's told and overlooks the oppression and persecution of the times.

Are we talking Training Sessions?

Based on the life of the projectionist who served from 1935 until Stalin's death in 1953. Filmed on location at the Kremlin.

Pat, you think I have an essay here?
[ The Inner circle Review ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:11:09 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Go for the essay. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:23:44 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: CW and SC - a question...
Message:
For all your seemingly antisocial traits (at least when engaging here) I get the impression you are both more intelligent and knowledgeable about life, the universe and everything else than is Prem Rawat - ie. the man, nay 'Master', whose 'teachings' you follow. Well definitely, SC (I'm not sure about CW, but he has his moments - certainly more sense of humour than Chairman Moonface).

The point is, if you read a transcript of any of M's 'teachings' you will find only incoherent, frequently self-contradictory ramblings which either of you, I, or any of us, could fabricate in a moment of creativity.

So, given only the written transcript of a genuine talk given by M, would you or be able to tell it apart from something you or I might have written?

Or if you think you could, how, exactly..?

I bet you couldn't.
Thanks. Nige.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:11:26 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That's a bit difficult Nige
Message:
You know, unless I was a speed typist and all. There are some of his talks I'd love to show, that I think are really cool.

I agree though, some of M's talks to tend to wander around the usual cliches and anecdotes one would expect. I see him a bit like my pre Maharaji guru - Jimi H. I was lucky enough to catch Jimi on a few occasions and sometimes it was truly spellbinding, other times (including sadly, our last meeting) he really sucked and just couldn't pull the vibe together to play really well. I (honestly) believe M is subject to the same rules of expression and that sometimes, due to varying circumstances, it just isn't that great a gig.

On a less interesting or significant level, it's the same for me, I can rock musically sometimes. Other times, you'd walk away thinking 'why does he bother with it'!?

Thanks for the compliment, but I really don't think I can compete with M on LUE knowledge. As Michael said, the guy can fly some pretty heavy duty machines and apparently really cooks on a computer. I'm a frank amateur on both counts.

I enjoy your intelligent and interesting posts.

cheers,
SC

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:48:14 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Is that a no?
Message:
And if it is a no, why listen to him, why not listen to Nigel? or anyone else for that matter? I've heard friends take some cool bullshit, and I didn't have to pay them for it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:07:55 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Braggadoccio, Mr David Roupell
Message:
SC said: ''I agree though, some of M's talks to tend to wander around the usual cliches and anecdotes one would expect. I see him a bit like my pre Maharaji guru - Jimi H. I was lucky enough to catch Jimi on a few occasions and sometimes it was truly spellbinding, other times (including sadly, our last meeting) he really sucked and just couldn't pull the vibe together to play really well. I (honestly) believe M is subject to the same rules of expression and that sometimes, due to varying circumstances, it just isn't that great a gig.''

You're full of crap and you know it but I bet those dingos down there just lap it up what with your cool pommie accent and all. Your last MEETING with Jimi. God you're pathetic.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:04:40 (EST)
From: Alledaine cpi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Internet Cult Faces Prosecution
Message:
Lawyers in London are preparing writs against internet identity 'ex-premie.org' a website and forum allegedly operating to oppose the well respected charity known as Elan Vital. A spokesperson for the law firm confirmed yesterday that proceedings against the web based group were 'active'.

Apparently, ex-premie. org was now engaged in the very activities they have been levelling at Elan Vital - soliciting for donations to re-coup operating costs and, worse, censoring, changing or completely removing messages to the 'ex-premie' forum that challenge their often libelous and highly offensive posts.

'It's only a matter of time' added Rupert Wacerner QC 'before there is enough evidence of plagary and malicious harrassment to shut them down overnight and prosecute the parties responsible to ensure they don't spring up somewhere else. At present we are still collating data to match with the IPA records and should be ready for interim injunctions in the new year'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:13:00 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Alledaine cpi
Subject: Pagary, eh? That's bad, really baad.
Message:
'It's only a matter of time' added Rupert Wacerner QC 'before there is enough evidence of plagary ...

PLAGARY, eh?

They don't make Queen's Counsel like they used to, it would seem. Do you think I'll get into trouble for plagiarism if I start using (the presumably fictitious) Rupert Wacerner QC's neologism?

JohnT
- never a premie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 03:36:39 (EST)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: Alledaine cpi
Subject: Rupert Warcener, my arse...
Message:
Just checked in Chambers 2001 - no such barrister as Rupert Wacerner. More tripe...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:06:12 (EST)
From: Cacaro
Email: None
To: Alledaine cpi
Subject: Can they affored a lawsuite?
Message:
or is he spending from his pocket this time?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:52:13 (EST)
From: John Macgregor
Email: None
To: Alledaine cpi
Subject: Interglacial Cult Faces Extinction?
Message:
Hi again,

In the unlikely event that this drivel has any truth to it, it's good to remember that ex-premies have an awful lot of weapons in their armory.

Firstly, there is the fact that any threatened case against EPO is unlikely to proceed, for the simple reason that EV does not want the publicity it would generate. (Here in Australia for a start, I write for several of the papers, and my EV friends know this.) Apart from anything, the stuff written in EPO can largely be proven to be true. Would Maharaji and his team really want this to be widely known via the mainstream media - as it undoubtedly would in the course of litigation or prosecution directed at multiple defendants?

Secondly, I raised the possibility of a lawsuit like the one now threatened with a senior 'connection' last week. S/he said, 'EV is in no position to sue anyone at the moment.' It must be remembered that because of EPO and other factors - but probably EPO more than anything - EV worldwide is in retreat. An Australian premie has recently toured the world on M's behalf (the 'winds of change' tour) spinning the downturn as 'consolidation', 'time for less of the organisation and more of the heart', etc. Translation: they're experiencing serious problems with money. Because so many major donors are withdrawing their Amaroo loans simultaneously (post-Sept 11), there is even talk of selling the property.

Thirdly, the counter-measures open to ex-premies are extensive. Aside from in the area of publicity, there is always the option of a class action. Whilst it may be difficult in North America, it appears this is viable in Australia. At least two ex-premies have, to my knowledge, sued EV or threatened it with press exposure, and received substantial payouts. These things can be and have been done. Certainly there are the legal brains here in Australia to carry out a class action if it came to that.

Generally I don't believe in such nastiness, but if I were attacked legally, I would hardly feel defenceless.

Finally, re the below post: Maharaji being forced to directly, publicly and specifically address information on EPO is an extremely important symbolic moment, IMO. For decades, Maharaji's only defence against criticism has been his wall of silence. This has now been punctured for the first time.

• Someone emailed me, asking for more information about the Amaroo Mutiny. Also, there's a story doing the rounds here in Byron that I'm angry that Maharaji refused to replace the Amaroo manager with myself at that time. Or simply that I lost a power struggle, and that my posts here are all sour grapes. (There are a few versions of this story.)

So maybe I'll cover both these things at once:

The Mutiny wasn't even a mutiny, technically. Several of us disagreed with management approaches, and resigned. Personally I was packing to leave the state - but was asked to stay for the Valerio facilitation process. I met privately with the Pacific Contact to discuss new models for Amaroo's management. She was very much in favour of changing things too. A number of (ex) management team people met in various combinations to do the same.

In due course, Valerio arrived, called a meeting, and burst into tears onstage before he could get any words out. I knew then there were not going to be any 'new management models'. When he was able to talk, Valerio told us M 'regarded this as a mutiny' and had said 'How dare they?'. That kind of set the tone for the rest of the week.

In the subsequent days there were lots of team exercises, lots of confession, lots of crying. People confessed to just about everything, even things they hadn't done. My favourite moment was when the guy next to me said the whole thing reminded him of 'a medieval penitence session', refused to have anything to do with it, dropped his papers on the floor in front of him, and folded his arms. I've had a soft spot for him ever since.

You know the rest: on the last day, we all promised to behave, the importance of obeying M was drummed in, then some time down the track the trainings started - to make sure we did, I guess.

Anyway, the aim of the so-called mutineers was to replace the person managing Amaroo with a team of about ten people, all of equal rank. And to open up the flow of information - get rid of the secrecy we felt was stifling the place - and also involve the community in decision-making: i.e. flatten the pyramid right out. There was never any intention to replace the existing Amaroo manager with another individual - let alone me. Of all the many models we discussed, this one was never raised by anyone. The whole idea was to disseminate power, not simply transfer it to someone else.

When the Amaroo manager arrived back from the US in the middle of the Mutiny, I went round to see her for a cup of tea, and asked her to resign, and make way for a team. She politey refused. We proceeded to an amiable conversation about general matters, in the sunshine on her back porch.

Once the mutiny was resolved I very deliberately made my peace with her, told her she had my full support - which she did - and rejoined the management team. (Tho my money soon ran out, and I had to leave Amaroo.)

A year later I re-iterated my support to her in the training. Our relationship was fine then, and the last time I saw her (when she dropped in here for a cuppa a year or two ago) it was still fine. Tho we have radically different styles, I've always liked her and still do.

It was, and still is, my opinion that any individual who takes on the management of Amaroo should be followed around by a team of psychiatrists. I suspect the then manager (she's since resigned) might agree. And anyone who harbours suspicions about the real motivations behind the Mutiny should simply ask her about it.

John

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 03:44:23 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: The legal threat's a sick joke
Message:
......probably done by a CACroach.

Oscar Wilde sued Queensbury for defamation (was it?) and ended up in jail instead.

And the snide rumors about you are probably the work of the same fanatical cultists. Are you sure there aren't some CACroaches running around Oz someplace? Sounds like Amaroo is a fertile breeding ground for them.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:48:01 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Alledaine cpi
Subject: Wacerner? what kind of name is that?
Message:
You don't name the supposed law firm, QC stands for Queen's Counsel, you don't collate data, you collect data, you don't level activities at someone - you level charges, we haven't charged that Elan Vital's donations merely recoup operating costs - that's your claim - the donations also benefit a private individual named Prempal Rawat (aka Maharaji, the Speaker fka Lord of the Universe), it is not a crime to offend people - not in a free society, 'was now'? that should be 'is now'. I could go on, but why waste any more time?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 20:32:35 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Alledaine cpi
Subject: Elan Vital is well respected?
Message:
They're not even well-respected in the cult.

Too funny.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:11:35 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: E V not respected even in cult! Nice, Deb! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:30:21 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Alledaine cpi
Subject: Hysterical
Message:
They are going to shut EPO overnight sometime in the New Year? But 'proceedings' are 'active?'

It's 'plagiary' not 'plagary.'

It's LYING that we have alleged at Elan Vital, and also being involved in encouraging hate websites against individuals. What, exactly on EPO is a lie?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:16:55 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Alledaine cpi
Subject: Thanks for the laugh [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:14:26 (EST)
From: Badly written
Email: None
To: Alledaine cpi
Subject: troll posting
Message:
xx
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:14:16 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Alledaine cpi
Subject: Oh yeah, right
Message:
Quick Gerry, hide the yacht.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 20:22:35 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: juajuajuajuajua NT
Message:
mm
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 18:18:18 (EST)
From: Philly Mole
Email: None
To: All
Subject: M was asked real question at Phila. program!
Message:
I heard that M opened up the program in Philly last night to questions. Most were blubbery (I love you, bla bla bla). But one person asked M if he meditated. And M replied Why do you want to know? And the person brought up the fact of 'well, there's this web site'... EPO. The person who told my friend this said, 'M's face went black.' Evidently M spent a long time with the guy and it spoiled the night for the person who told my friend. LOL!!!

The source for this story and the friend are impeccably reliable. Can someone that attended confirm or deny this happened?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:39:56 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Philly Mole
Subject: wish he'd visit Perth
Message:
so I could ask him how long he knew about Jagdeo and when he saw the report that Valerio and Lietner did for him. I'd like to see his face then.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:08:22 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Philly Mole
Subject: He's a poor liar
Message:
He should have got some training on how to lie. I saw the video clip some time ago (on EV site) where he denied ever saying that he was God and it was the most atrocious attempt at lying I've ever seen.

Remember too when someone asked him if he meditated for an hour every day and he answered that sometimes he fell asleep in the shower, he was so busy.

Now that's not the way to lie, to evade the question. I think he should take some lessons.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:38:02 (EST)
From: busy bill
Email: None
To: Philly Mole
Subject: haha, blackfaced by epo [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:40:17 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Philly Mole
Subject: You did Good PM
Message:
Sounds like the BigHead was really caught off guard.

What a rude question, 'Why do you want to Know?' Really rude. He shot himself in the foot on that one. Also, spot on the guy who had the nerve to advertise EPO.

Fuck, are we his worse nightmare or what? This is tooooo much fun.

Please try and follow up on that one for us, will ya.

cheers,

deborah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:23:44 (EST)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Philly Mole
Subject: Re: M was asked real question at Phila. program!
Message:
The fact he replied Why do you want to know? in itself is a statement he does not meditate. If he did he'd just plainly say Yes. Well that is only my opinion anyway.
Mercedes
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 10:31:04 (EST)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: I'm surprised your intelligence isn't better!
Message:
If EPO is certain that Maharaji doesn't meditate, it sort of implies that they are watching him 24 hours a day and notice that he does not sit down and do meditation. Who would be in a position to know that? Even Michael Donner or Mike Dettmers when they were close to him probably didn't follow him around 24 hrs a day. He might go some place private and alone to meditate. Are there hidden cameras in the walls of the residence? The fact that someone would say something like that underscores the poor quality of information concerning Maharaji coming from EPO.

And here's Philly Mole pretending to have all the inside scoop of the Phila. program and he didn't even bother to attend. He just reports what he heared second or third hand.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:28:37 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Hey Arsepick--M doesn't meditate
Message:
I heard him say it myself one time. He said he meditated really hard ONCE and then he realized KNOWLEDGE.

Everyone here KNOWS that, but YOU, apparently.....

Stay tuned, for more...

.
.
.
.
psst... if you read the pages, you might learn something about the cult you joined

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:21:33 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: very probable
Message:
It's hard to be absolutely certain of things, but that does not discount the very high probability that he doesn't meditate. People don't respond to a question with an evasive and defensive question for no reason. We often need to base our actions on probabilities, we can't always wait for certainty. That's obsessive. Sometimes you basically know something without being absolutely certain.
This is not the only time he has evaded the question. That is further evidence.
'Beyond a reasonable doubt'
understand?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:27:35 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Do you know that he meditates?
Message:
If so, how?
When I saw the DVD if him talking about the techniques, I got a strong feeling that he doesn't meditate. In the video, most of the time there are just stills, that seems very odd. Can't he make a video where he's meditating throughout? He left the stage while the video was showing. I had to wonder why. Don't you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 11:03:33 (EST)
From: Philly Mole
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Re: I'm surprised your intelligence isn't better!
Message:
Obviously I am passing on a story as it was told to me. I said that up front. In that post I also requested anyone in attendance to either confirm or deny the story. Many of the subsequent comments are speculation re: M's meditation practice. Apparently, from M's answer he has no interest in discussing his own practice of K - the very practice he says he's totally dedicated to. I think it was a fair question. His arrogant reply illicited the web reference.

Funny you criticize us for not having effective 'intelligence'. This forum is a discussion group made up mostly of former followers of Maharaji, not an international conspiracy as the more paranoid current followers believe.

PM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:05:49 (EST)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Philly Mole
Subject: Re: I'm surprised your intelligence isn't better!
Message:
He didn't evade the question, he just refused to answer it. I may not remember everything verbatum, but it was something like this: 'I am not going to answer that question. And the reason I am not going to answer that question is because I am secure in who I am. I don't feel I have to justify myself or validate myself to someone else. I feel comfortable with who I am.'

If someone asked me the same question, I would feel the same way. First of all it's none of your business whether I meditate or not. It's strictly a matter between two people: myself and my consciousness. I am not doing it to impress anyone. I'm not doing it so someone will say: 'There's a good premie!' The only one who experiences meditation is myself. It's a very personal thing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 12:10:53 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: No wonder K is really spreading!!!
Message:
So you would say 'ye there are these 4 incedible techniques.....' and you tell how incredible it is, then when you finish your listener politely says 'Hmmmm, so you do meditation eh?'...and you respond 'none of your business'?

Surely even premie-logic can see that this codswallop.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:22:51 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Maha is the Great I AM
Message:
Here it ye! That I am the I am. Moreover, I am the great I am.

meanwhile, down in the dark recesses of his MIND, a little squeaky voice asks,
.
.
.
.
Am I?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:53:38 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Mr. Thomas...
Message:
You said Maharaji's reply was this:

He didn't evade the question, he just refused to answer it. I may not remember everything verbatum, but it was something like this: 'I am not going to answer that question. And the reason I am not going to answer that question is because I am secure in who I am. I don't feel
I have to justify myself or validate myself to someone else. I feel comfortable with who I am.'

Well, ain't he hoity-toity.

And that's it in a nutshell. Maharaji NEVER feels he has to justify himself to anyone, even to those at a fundraiser who are supplying his coffers with money. That's plain rude. Beside that, he supposed to be the fucking Master of this cult. He has been the leader, guru, lord of the universe, perfect master. Someone asks him a question about the very thing he's spent his life offering: meditation, salvation, true knowledge of the fucking soul. Then he doesn't even have the ability to talk about his experience? He couldn't start talking about ''that wonderful, gosh gee golly, absolutely the purpose of your life, one with myself, realized soul'' experience?

What's he hiding?

I don't know, I don't live with the guy, thank GAUD. My speculation is he doesn't meditate. How does one meditate while under the influence of alcohol?

No, Maharaji won't be questioned. Now he's in defensive mode. Reclusive mode. His circuit of money-grabbing events will settle his bills for the time being and he will go into an alcoholic stupor with his mistress.

The Master won't talke about his meditation experience?

HAhaHAha....LOLOLOL! That's too funny for words.

Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:24:38 (EST)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Very often
Message:
he does talk about his mediational experiences, to the extent that it is something that can be talked about at all. This usually happens when he volunteers it himself.

Where I think he was coming from was: Does he have to defend himself from every off-the-wall accusation? And this really is off-the-wall because how can anyone one know except himself whether he meditates or not. It's all just speculation and arbitrary assignment of probabilities.

D

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 09:55:43 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: You Miss the Point...
Message:
You said:

he does talk about his mediational experiences, to the extent that it is something that can be talked about at all. This usually happens when he volunteers it himself.

Where I think he was coming from was: Does he have to defend himself from every off-the-wall accusation? And this really is off-the-wall because how can anyone one know except himself whether he meditates or not. It's all just speculation and arbitrary assignment of probabilities.

The point is that even today Maharaji travels the world promoting a meditation practice/experience as ''Master'' and ''Teacher.'' Don't you think it odd that Maharaji refused to answer the question?

Even if it was a confronting question, he is supposed to be the Teacher, Master. If a Professor of Biology were asked by a student
''Have you, or do you work in a lab?'' wouldn't it be weird not to answer the question. Hopefully saying 'yes?'

Unless, of course, the credibility of that Professor's credentials were faked, and that professor was being investigated due to testimony of students who experienced his incompetence.

Why apologize for Maharaji? He is you Master, right? The One At The Top...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:36:00 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: arbitrary eh?
Message:
'And this really is off-the-wall because how can anyone one know except himself whether he meditates or not. It's all just speculation and arbitrary assignment of probabilities.'

If you really believe that, then you have to believe that you don't know whether he meditates or not, and that you don't even whether it's probable, since your assignment of probability was arbitrary.

So why listen to him?

Of course what you wrote contradicts your other writing: 'Very often he does talk about his mediational experiences, to the extent that it is something that can be talked about at all. This usually happens when he volunteers it himself.' That suggests that you think you know that he meditates, for how else could he talk about 'mediational experiences'. Oh wait a minute, you're not saying he meditates or that he says he meditates, are you? You're only saying he has 'mediational experiences'. Maybe you think that because he's god-in-a-bod he doesn't need to meditate to have these experiences. Do you think that?
Do you hear him talking about himself meditating?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:35:01 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: M was asked, not accused
Message:
Why are you changing the issue here? You are not addressing that fact. The premie asked the BigHead an innocent straight forward question.

The fact that you interpret it as an accusation stems from Mah's guilt and your fear of the possibility that M doesn't.

maha talks about mediation (poorly, actually moronically, I may add) but he explicitly said that he realized Knowledge (whatever the fuck that means) and hence, does not need to meditate.

He's a liar. And a cult leader. And a deceiver. etc. etc. etc.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:23:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Translation?
Message:
'I am not going to answer that question. And the reason I am not going to answer that question is because I am secure in who I am. I don't feel I have to justify myself or validate myself to someone else. I feel comfortable with who I am.'

=

Who the hell do you think you are asking ME anything like that??!

By the way, Doubting Thomas, I don't believe you for a moment when you say that wouldn't answer if someone asked you if you meditated. How precious!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:49:32 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Whats the Difference!!
Message:
between evasion and refusal?
He didn't evade the question, he just refused to answer it.

Doesn't refusing to answer the question create the same result as evading the answer in the end run. The end result being the question does not get answered. Dance around the issue all you want, evade, avoid, refuse etc.

You are playing a loose game with words to twist your logic into the proper shape D Thomas.

Get off it, it is a fools game

He did not answer the question, he puleed the

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:32:20 (EST)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Re: I'm surprised your intelligence isn't better!
Message:
Hi D Thomas

For me, the evasion of an answer is telling.
He endlessly praises the practice amd beauty of meditation. Surely it would be the first thing he would want to talk about when asked if he derived so much from it himself.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:26:05 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: D_Thomas - interesting choice of words
Message:
It's strictly a matter between two people: myself and my consciousness.

I find nothing wrong with meditation of any kind, but I sure have a problem with the alien philosophy that gets shovelled into the hopper by the master that creates a thought process like you manifest by the above statement.

Sure, your statement is rather innocent and meaningless, but there is some truth to it when one is a fully indoctrined premie that has faithfully swallowed the company line with little or no critical analysis. I, too, had thoughts like those when I was a believer. However, since I left only a few years ago I no longer feel as splintered into so many different pieces - the mind vs. the heart, etc.

D_Thomas: keep the mediation, but lose the Master. You will find yourself happier and free.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:45:27 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Yo Dreko
Message:
Great response. Just wanted to say hi.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:50:35 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Yo Dreko
Message:
Hello! It was a good enough response to get clobbered by elsewhere on EPO.

It just struck me as how strange it all gets.

Hey, I saw you in an airport about a month ago, but you moved too fast and were gone before I could say hello. Email me for details.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:00:21 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: more than just an opinion
Message:
The fact he replied Why do you want to know? in itself is a statement he does not meditate. If he did he'd just plainly say Yes. Well that is only my opinion anyway.
Mercedes


---

There are opinions, then there are opinions with a very high probability of being true. It is highly probable that he does not meditate, based on his reply alone. This was a big blunder on his part, he might as well said 'Hit me.'

This reminds me of being in the infamous ashram, riding in a beat-up economy car packed with 'brothers', I said 'Maharaji meditates', everyone went silent, which bothered me, everyone had this feeling 'no he doesn't', the rationalization being 'He doesn't need to because he's already enlightened, he's gone past the need', but there was an uneasiness because it contradicts things he has said about that being impossible (for us mere humans at least).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:52:32 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Yes, Mercedes
Message:
You make a good point. I also think the statement says, in so many words: 'Never doubt the purity of the master'. I would love to see a tape of that interchange. I'm sure no one will get the chance again for real dialogue at these 'intimate events'.

Richard

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 21:47:58 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Why do you want to know ?
Message:
You're right. The Satguru would say yes , or better just laugh out loud. The bar room bully boy says 'you looking at me'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:22:06 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Why do you want to know? Defensive! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:59:21 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Keep Your Secrets - The Most Common Mistakes
Message:
Well, when he's actually confronted, Rawat crumbles.
Check out Keep Your Secrets - The Most Common Mistakes.
It says:
'There are many ways 'people tell on themselves'.....that is....alert someone else to the fact that a secret is being held or a lie is being told. ...
#3. Causing unnecessary suspicion...and/or increasing latent suspicion:
The person trying to keep a secret obviously knows more about the secret than anyone else. This internal knowledge can work against the person keeping the secret by making them hypersensitive to anything even remotely related to their secret. A simple question...even innocent and unrelated....can cause a torrent of pre-mature defensive reactions, explanations, alibis, and inappropriate emotion. Religious folks call this a 'Guilty Conscience'....mental health folks call it an early 'Defensive Response' to protect the secret. Either way.......it is a sure tell-tale signal of deceit. Some of these telltale clues are:
Responding defensively to an innocent questions.
. When asked a simple question, they respond with something like 'Why are you interested...or...Why do you want to know?' instead of giving a simple answer.

What was his internal knowledge?
. that (most likely) he doesn't meditate
. the existence of EPO
. that EPO was probably a factor causing the question.

#4. Trying to avoid telling the lie:
...
. Giving Defensive responses (why do you ask?...why do you want to know??)

He was also curious (Why is he asking this question?). You know what they say 'Curiousity killed the cat.' Well, his curiousity got the better of him.

For more see

Keep Your Secrets Bookstore
I've read 'Never Be Lied To Again', it's a pretty good book.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:06:53 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: G
Subject: the corrected links ...
Message:
Keep Your Secrets - The Most Common Mistakes

Keep Your Secrets

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:58:30 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Great link, G! Thanks!
Message:
I've bookmarked it.

Anna

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 18:37:05 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Philly Mole
Subject: Did they say any more?
Message:
How Maharaji responded, or what was said about EPO?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:14:34 (EST)
From: Philly Mole
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Did they say any more???
Message:
The complete message was copied and pasted as is. I, too am very curious about the fall out that surely occured after the question was asked. That's all I know for now. Hopefully more details will be forthcoming.

PM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:03:27 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Philly Mole
Subject: was 'ex-premie.org' said? Did M reply? nt
Message:
x
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 19:25:40 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Philly Mole
Subject: Oh darn
Message:
It's just this kind of late-breaking news flash that makes this forum so darn addictive... er.... interesting.

I mean, I could care less about mj - really. But when I read about his incredibly manipulative trainings that are making people crazy and depressed, from people who were there, and then I read that he is angrily ranting about this forum - well, it becomes as interesting as Gwyneth Paltrow's love life - or more!

So anyway, where are our moles, with their little mole-sized tape recorders?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 15:35:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Katie?
Message:
A few days ago you posted:

Cat, I've heard from at least one other person who had a completely different viewpoint about the training sessions, although (and I emphasize this) they did NOT attend the training that John was writing about - they attended another one, not in Oz. So I concede that accounts - along with training sessions - might vary. However, saying John's account as 'subjective' really doesn't mean anything - your account of the same training (IF you were there) would also be entirely subjective.

If you indeed have been through a training session, I'd like to hear your take on it.

I asked you then and then again yesterday to elaborate but .... nothing. Again, I'll say it just doesn't seem fair for you to say this much but no more. After all, your friend's whole point was to contradict John even if he or she concede that they didn't go to his particular session. His post wasn't just about his session, it seemed to me to be about pretty well the whole damn lot fo them as far as I could tell. So it strikes me as only fair -- to John and anyone else interested in understanding what's really going on in M's world -- that you fill in the blansk a bit more. No?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:48:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks so much for avoiding this, Katie
Message:
A few days ago you posted:

Cat, I've heard from at least one other person who had a completely different viewpoint about the training sessions, although (and I emphasize this) they did NOT attend the training that John was writing about - they attended another one, not in Oz. So I concede that accounts - along with training sessions - might vary. However, saying John's account as 'subjective' really doesn't mean anything - your account of the same training (IF you were there) would also be entirely subjective.

If you indeed have been through a training session, I'd like to hear your take on it.

I asked you then and then again yesterday to elaborate but .... nothing. Again, I'll say it just doesn't seem fair for you to say this much but no more. After all, your friend's whole point was to contradict John even if he or she concede that they didn't go to his particular session. His post wasn't just about his session, it seemed to me to be about pretty well the whole damn lot fo them as far as I could tell. So it strikes me as only fair -- to John and anyone else interested in understanding what's really going on in M's world -- that you fill in the blansk a bit more. No?


---

What kind of game are you playing, Katie? If it was so important for you to report that 'at least one other person ... had a completely different viewpoint about the training sessions' than John's, surely it'd be equally important to explain yourself. Why you can't see that on your own is beyond me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 10:44:18 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You are rude, Jim
Message:
Do you really think that saying that I'm 'playing games', and that I MUST 'explain myself' and that I 'owe it to John McG', when you don't even know that, is called for in this situation? You may be on-line on the forum 24-7, but I'm not. And it's posts like yours that make me never want to post on this forum again.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:42:54 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie, may I interject
Message:
I know JIm's last post sounds a little offensive but he really did post a couple of respectful requests for more information and even I was looking forward to hear the scoop. In fairness, he probably jumped the gun on being impatient, as you could have been out of commission for a number of valid reasons.

I don't know if you're reading Jim's continued response in this thread but one line he made merits your attention.

Like it or not, Katie, your post really did undermine John's account a bit. It was if you said that, because of your secret reports from various so-and-so's we should all remember to take John's account with a grain of salt. That was the effect anyway.

Well, this comment did and does speak for myself, and possibly others, as well. I, too, felt that you had given a challenging blow to John McG in this instance. John went to great lengths to balance his point of view (I actually thought he over-apologized and wanted to slap him out of it -- but I'm aggressive aggessive, and not passive aggressive like you ;) )

When you apologized, you took a odd self-deprecating attitude about how you should had just keept your mouth shut, however, that was far from the point. It's not that you shouldn't have said something. It's what you said and its intended motive which was brought into question.

In other words, your bias was showing.

Am I off base?

Deborah

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 22:06:47 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Katie, may I interject
Message:
Hi Deb -
You are right that I have other things going on besides the forum right now (for example, I spent 12 hours in the coal fields on Monday cutting down 200 pine trees - not by myself, thank god.) And sometimes I tend to lurk around on alt.rec.gardening when I'm tired of the forum :).

Also, because of my past history with Jim, I tend not to trust his motives even when he is being polite - once burned, twice shy and all that. I wasn't in the mood to get attacked because of something someone ELSE said - and that is why I should have kept my mouth shut in the first place. Thankfully, my friend did give me permission to post her account in her own words.

However, it was not my intention to undermine John's account - and I believe he knows this. I thought his post was great. For the record, I believe BOTH John's account and the account that my friend gave. I don't think they're irreconcilable, especially given that they are not accounts of the same training. My motive in mentioning the stories that other people had told me was to hopefully get some MORE people to give accounts of their view of the trainings (if you recall, I was talking to CW).

And re my 'bias' - I am not really sure what you are talking about. I do get irritated by the 'paint it black' tendency on this forum - I think it drives a lot of people away because they feel that what is said here is completely one-sided. As I said to Joe above, premies have the same tendency to 'paint it white', which is also irritating. Anyway, I don't feel disloyal or anything for mentioning that there was another opinion about the trainings.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 08:02:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: A CLASSIC (questionable) Katie comment!
Message:
And re my 'bias' - I am not really sure what you are talking about. I do get irritated by the 'paint it black' tendency on this forum - I think it drives a lot of people away because they feel that what is said here is completely one-sided. As I said to Joe above, premies have the same tendency to 'paint it white', which is also irritating. Anyway, I don't feel disloyal or anything for mentioning that there was another opinion about the trainings.

This is just SO typical of you! Saying bullshit that makes you sound like you've got some moral high ground from which you look down onto the scrapping premies and exes. AS IF ex-premies distort reality just like premies do which is just what you're saying here. What an insulting thing to say! But then that's the kind of stuff you've said for years. And yes, I've called you on it for years. Tried to, anyway. Of course, you immediately say that wasn't what you meant, I'm twisting your words, whatever. Like I say, you've been doing it for years.

But Deborah's right, I guess. Your bias IS showing and it sucks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 08:10:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And ANOTHER thing ....
Message:
And re my 'bias' - I am not really sure what you are talking about. I do get irritated by the 'paint it black' tendency on this forum - I think it drives a lot of people away because they feel that what is said here is completely one-sided. As I said to Joe above, premies have the same tendency to 'paint it white', which is also irritating. Anyway, I don't feel disloyal or anything for mentioning that there was another opinion about the trainings.

This is just SO typical of you! Saying bullshit that makes you sound like you've got some moral high ground from which you look down onto the scrapping premies and exes. AS IF ex-premies distort reality just like premies do which is just what you're saying here. What an insulting thing to say! But then that's the kind of stuff you've said for years. And yes, I've called you on it for years. Tried to, anyway. Of course, you immediately say that wasn't what you meant, I'm twisting your words, whatever. Like I say, you've been doing it for years.

But Deborah's right, I guess. Your bias IS showing and it sucks.


---

If the 'tendency to 'paint it black' drives a lot of people away, it just might be because they're either still in the cult or are reluctant for any of a million possible reasons to settle into publically expressing and acknowledging just how 'black' it actually is.

But then maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there really is this whole gray zone somewhere between the norm here and what premies think. If so, perhaps you could explain just where that middle ground is. I can't imagine it myself.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:28:21 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: The medium is the message
Message:
Katie,

I believe you that you didn't have a bias. However, your comment gave that impression. No insult intended there. It's just honest feedback. However, knowing the nature of the forum and the effects of posts, I also know to give you a chance to come back with elaboration.

Regarding your comment:

I do get irritated by the 'paint it black' tendency on this forum - I think it drives a lot of people away because they feel that what is said here is completely one-sided.

I think it's more that the words appear stark and black on the forum, Katie. In other words, the nature of the beast. We are also talking on a forum which is exposing a cult. We were conned into a non-critical thinking environment whose shackles must now be destroyed.

This is not just another gardening or political junkie site. ;)

People have seriously deep-seated one-sided opinions about Maha, knowledge, and the purpose of their entire life, or they have not yet resolved those repressed ideas when they arrive.

That's the problem Katie. We do not need the added pressures of having to be thebad guys. When people come to grips with that fact that they've been in a cult and what the whole charade means, the forum takes on a whole new persona. I know I speak for others, because they've said so in posts.

I enjoy the varied opinions of the group. It amazes me daily how enjoyable it is to be with people who say what they mean and mean what they say. It's a breath of fresh air that I don't need to be reminded to enjoy. I've just got it bookmarked.

cheers,

deborah

happy thanksgiving

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 14:17:18 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: It is black and white, Katie
Message:
Rather than pussy-foot around my remaining premie friends I have spoken my mind. Sometimes it has broken the tension and sometimes it has made it so bad that they have cut me out of their lives. But I don't have to play politics or be diplomatic. I don't have a role such as it seems you may have adopted while queen of EPO.

Katie, sometimes I think that you are still playing the role of the queen mother of EPO - the same game that blew up into the Glasser fracas. You don't want to take sides but be a friend to all, above it all as Jim says on some high moral ground looking down at us dreadful exes fighting in the trenches with cultists.

That's your choice and some people will respect it but it will get you into trouble with many of us because it often comes over as game-playing especially when you have to do some fancy footwork to get yourself out of some corner you've backed yourself into.

In the end, it is better just to be straight. Living in that grey relativist area may appeal to some (it certainly appeals to premies as it lets them off the hook) but it gives me the willies.

Perhaps diplomacy seems like a good way to meet premies half way in the hopes that you can convert them but I'm not really interested in converting anyone. Those who want to hear the truth will. The others...well you could spend your life dancing the diplomacy dance with them.

Katie, I've called you two-faced before and realized that I was being too harsh and that there was more to it than that. But that's the way your equivocating and patronizing ways often come across to me. I would sure like to see you stop playing the role of EPO dowager queen/diplomat and just start saying what you think rather than what you think you ought to say.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 16:29:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM****
Message:
Thanks for telling it like it is, Pat. It takes a certain amount of inherent negativity to say those things to Katie. Welcome to the dark side .....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 17:04:35 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oy vey, Mr Vader!
Message:
I can't be painted much blacker than I already have been on AG. Over there I've been tarred with being a CONSERVATIVE my god and even worse - a CAPITALIST, the worst things you can call anybody nowadays. But I won't get into politics.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:02:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: No, Katie, YOU are
Message:
Sorry, Katie, but you can't pin THIS one on me. It's all yours, girl. YOU were the one who had to tell us that 'at least one other person' had contacted you with a 'completely different viewpoint' than John's. All I did was ask you what you meant. You were here, you saw my question, you just chose to ignore it. Why is beyond me.

And I disagree that you don't have any obligation to explain yourself in the circumstances. I think you do.

As for not wanting to paraphrase someone and get it wrong, as you explain below, don't be silly. We all paraphrase each other all the time, you included. You said enough to warrant a further explanation and you might have easily provided one if, perhaps, it was anyone else but me who'd asked. This isn't about 'debating' me much as you'd like to make it so.

Finally, if posts like mine make you never want to post on this forum again ... I don't know what to say. I'm speechless in the face of your big, little girl boo hoo-ing again. God, you love doing that!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 15:45:00 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fuck off, Jim
Message:
I wish you WERE speechless (snicker). With you and your 'witness stand' attitude - not to mention your need to ridicule me - on this forum, it's frankly easier for me to say nothing. I doubt I'm the only person who feels this way - maybe you should think about that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 17:00:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Fuck off, Jim
Message:
I wish you WERE speechless (snicker). With you and your 'witness stand' attitude - not to mention your need to ridicule me - on this forum, it's frankly easier for me to say nothing. I doubt I'm the only person who feels this way - maybe you should think about that.


---

Well, as I've already said, in my opinion it wasn't at all fair for you to leave things as you did. It's funny, really. Why would you make a point of saying that you'd heard from 'at least two other people' when, it now turns out, it was only two. And why make the point that they had a 'completely different viewpoint' without saying what it was? Like it or not, Katie, your post really did undermine John's account a bit. It was if you said that, because of your secret reports from various so-and-so's we should all remember to take John's account with a grain of salt. That was the effect anyway.

So, yeah, it irked me. It irks me when you're so busy showing how you're everyone's friend that you say excessive things like this. As if you're pained to show that you, Katie, aren't partisan. Not like some of us 'assholes'.

Katie, why do you keep referring to all the other people beside yourself that hate me? What are you trying to do? Do you see now why I call you passive aggressive? Look, Katie, I don't even know what that term means but you're sure something. :)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:31:17 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, Katie might be out of town for the holiday [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:46:45 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: No, I suspect Katie simply doesn't....
Message:
...like debating with Jim, even when his questions are reasonable.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 10:37:40 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Actually, a bit of both, and a few other reasons
Message:
I was out of town for work, and JHB is right that I don't want to debate with Jim about what someone else told me. I didn't go to the trainings - obviously - and all I know about them was learned from John, Lesley, Michael McD., and two other people I know - one a current premie, and one an ex-premie. And I didn't want to attempt to paraphrase - possibly inaccurately - what someone else had said.

However, I now have get permission from my friend who disagreed with John re the trainings to post a cut and paste from some of her e-mails (she doesn't want to post on the forum because of the current IP look up and posting that's going on). I'm going to post it here - but obviously, she's not going to respond to questions or comments.

BTW, happy Thanksgiving to all of you in the US (even though I don't like the holiday myself).

Here it is:
First off, I have heard from people who WERE in multiple trainings (John was not) that the training in Amaroo was the worst of them all. Very hard for M and the participants both. That's just a little bit of background.

A couple of other notes:
- the notion of 'leaders as a problem' is central to the training, and it has proven, for me, to be an invaluable life experience. The premise is that people like to have leaders, because they get to abdicate responsibility for decisions, and hand them off to the leader, and then they get to sit around and criticize the leader's decisions rather than participate in a process in any useful fashion. So, it was more a call to action and responsibility than anything else.

- John rightly asks the question 'why have people withdrawn from service 'en masse' now that the trainings are finished?' He is not wrong in stating that this happened. He is wrong in his assumption WHY this occurred (at least in this country). My experience, from talking to friends, was that it was more about getting in touch with the feeling of WHY one was participating so heavily in service than it was about some vague malaise. The malaises were not so subtle. There are people who feel aspects of the training were abusive (especially the facilitators, more so than M). No doubt about it. BUT...most of the people who withdrew did so more because they realized their hearts weren't really in it. It was more in their heads and an obligation, and I think the trainings sort of opened up their eyes to this. So, I find this change rather healthy - as do the friends of mine who went in this direction.

- John also paints the training participants as the 'higher ups' or 'people in power'. This was not entirely true. There were also people like me, who really HAD no power or position in the organization at the time. Attempts were made to find people who could think out of the box, were not afraid to stick their necks out, and who were off the beaten path. So, for a lot of US people (probably about 1/3 or more of the participants), we got MORE involved after the training. Not out of fear, but because the bizarro world of service had been exposed for what it is. For so many years people had been pretending 'everything is all right' all in his name. When you walked out of the training, the one thing you knew was that everything is NOT all right. Again, to me, that was incredibly healthy. It promoted logic, honesty and self-reflection.

- Its interesting that in John's training all the 'games' were unwinnable. In mine, almost all were completed successfully by the group. Mind you, they were mostly very simple exercises.

I dont know what to make of the scapegoat story. I know that it wasn't done in either training in the US - and I did get separate verification that it WAS done in Amaroo. There was a 'firing' exercise in one of the US trainings but the story was a bit different. Each team was supposed to fire 'the weakest link'. There were probably 10 teams. I know that one guy very definitely freaked out and split, and M sent a couple of people out to find him. That doesn't excuse it, I'm just letting you know what I know.

All this is just detail. Bottom line is, I cannot find anything to argue with in terms of the principles of the training. Honesty, respect, no brain farts, brevity (which translated there into the 10 second rule), I forget most of the others, but they were not disturbing. The notion of unanimity is tougher, but is achievable in most circumstances, or so its seemed.

Actually, this reminds me of the statement of John's that presents a huge distortion of what actually happened - which is the whole question of 'if its 11 o'clock in the morning, and the team says its dark outside, what do you say?' The point of that exercise was, if it isn't germane to what you're doing, and if no harm is caused by agreeing to that, agree to it. In other words, 'don't sweat the small stuff'. A corralary, which I was just recently reminded of is the 'shoes, socks, pants' example. It is instructive in understanding the context. M said take off your shoes. Everyone took off their shoes. Then - 'take off your socks'. People get a little squeamish, possible odors and all, but then take off their socks. Then - 'take off your pants'. Followed quickly by 'DO NOT take off your pants'. Why? Because there are lines you must not cross. When something is wrong, and you know it will be wrong, DO NOT just go along with it.

They [the trainings] were too harsh for many people - even people who you would think could handle it. I had a long talk with a friend of mine about it. It was definitely her opinion that more than a few people found the trainings abusive (although most of them were able to put it all in context and take the good from it, while leaving the rest). I guess I was just in a different place. I dunno. I do also know a bunch of people who had similar experiences to me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 14:06:58 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Interesting, but very strained
Message:
I appreciate that post, because it seems like the person who wrote it is trying to makes sense of this stuff. It seems like this person would be someone who would think EPO and the Forum are great additions and extremely healthy, because they are about open and questioning analysis. Does he or she?

Mind you, it does appear that this person, like most of us do when we are trying to fit our beliefs into realities that don't necessarily support them, presents explanations that get more and more complicated. I tend to think that's a sign of rationalizaton. We all do it, but when you have someone like Maharaji who isn't required to explain any motivations whatsoever, they tend to become a little irrational, because one of the major players, Maharaji, really isn't part of the "team," only everyone else is. That, of course, if doomed to failure, and probably the main reason M and his organizations have never gotten anything off the ground and why there has always been this bizarre "service frenzy" in that cult. Ultimately success or failure is entirely based on M's arbitrary, personal opinion, something no one is ever sure of, and hence everyone spins in circles trying to overdue the "effort."

You can't have an organization built on "teams" if Maharaji isn't an equal member of the "team." It doesn't make any sense.

Interesting too, that there is this idea that the trainings were 'abusive' but they benefitted people, and there doesn't appear to be any kind of organized discussion about how to end the 'abuse.' Does M think they were "abusive?" Has he gotten that feedback? What is the "team" going to do about the "abuse," and how can the team do anything about it if somebody who isn't a part of the team is instigating the abuse?

Also, if the trainings were about getting people to question old ways of doing things, how does that square with the fact that the most pervasive way of doing things, that M is always right and can't be criticized is not questioned, and is, in fact, reinforced by the trainings?

I also think the extremely strained rationalization for what that 'if the team ways it's day when it's night' concept was about is very dangerous. To suggest that it only applies to situations that 'aren't important' is ripe for even more abuse. Who decides what is 'important' if the 'team' disagrees, whomever the team is? And if, ultimately M decides, or can overrule any team decision, doesn't that disempower people to an extreme extent, and mean that the team can never be secure in any decision it makes, even if all the team processes are carried out?

And if the point is to discourage disagreement on things that aren't important, doesn't that tend to discourage it in all cases, instilling fear that somebody is complaining about something that doesn't matter, even when it does? Isn't it important to always encourage airing of concerns in a "team" situation? That certainly is my experience in those situations, and actually that's what takes up most of the time -- reaching concensus, but it is time very well spent.

I wish this person would come here and discuss this, and I wish he or she would encourage all those other people he or she is talking to to do the same. If M is trying to teach people to take their own responsbility for these things, and take action they see appropriate, what is the fear about that? Whom does this person fear will find out?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:15:06 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Well, how about me? I'm curious too!
Message:
Katie should never have mentioned that she had heard other reports of the trainings. It's pure torture. How the hell can you say stuff like that and not expect people to be dying of curiosity? Or at least itching.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:20:01 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Next time I WON'T mention anything similar
Message:
I'm really sorry that I did, now, as I didn't realize it would make people upset. Should have just kept my mouth shut, and will endeavor to do so in the future. Anyway, you have some more information - hope it helps the itch.

Happy thanksgiving.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:41:10 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thank you, Katie for...
Message:
...posting your friend's version of the trainings. It is almost word for word what our local industrial-strength church-lady said about them.

I learned my lesson about mentioning something that I was not willing to elaborate when I first came here and talked about the suicide of the aspirant. In fact it forced me out of my anonymous closet.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:46:36 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Cult Website Update/Charles Glasser Jr.
Message:
As I mentioned below, all the Maharaji cult attack websites, the ones that actually name individuals and attempt to smear them with their employers, etc., have now been removed from the Internet, but I have no doubt they, or something similar will appear again.

Second, as discussed down below, the cult apologist site, 'Please Consider This' has been shut down either permanently or for retooling as the authors 'think' about how to proceed.

Pia Grunbaum's site, 'It Ain't So' was put up for a few months in the summer, until Pia died, I believe from cancer, and the site has stayed there, untouched since the middle of August. In the past few days, that site has also been taken down.

Other than the EV sites, Maharaji's site, and the very embarrassing Enjoyinglife site, the only other site I am aware of that is still up is the one authored by Charles Glasser, Jr., who is a New York lawyer who is really, really angry. So angry in fact, you can practically see his face turn the shade of Mahraji's Krishna outfit at his website, which hasn't changed for about 2 and a half months, since September 5, 2001.

You can view that site at www.thetruthaboutmaharaji.com

Whatever happened to Charles Glasser Jr.? Is he still working for Willkie, Farr in New York? I hope he is doing well and isn't quite so angry. He's about to hit 40 and anger is bad for the blood pressure in middle-aged men.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:32:22 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Cult Website Update/Charles Glasser Jr.
Message:
Charles is not angry. He is only pissed off at present, but then Willkie looks after their people, I hope. I think he needs to meditate a bit more, pray for the lord and hope there will a sunshine by his grace.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:39:30 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Charles G lied about his age. he is older [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:33:23 (EST)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: loathsome creature
Message:
This is to Prempal Rawat, or whomever of his flunkies he has snooping here today. I loathe and depise you, rawat. You are a despicable, loathsome excuse for a human being. I invite you, or an identified representative, to e-mail me at the above address for an open and honest exchange of ideas and opinions. I will not worship you, be asured of that. I do offer you a chance to explain the multitude of contradictions that are everywhere in your church. And, yes, it is a church by the fact of your own registration with the State of California. So, please, no lies about how it isn't a church and why it isn't.

Now, I find that I am fighting for the existence of my marriage. In some way, without being here, you are able to keep trapping my husband and ensnaring him back into your pit of bullshit. ''Bullshit'', though, is at least a straightforward thing, while you are not even that.

When I first started posting here, someone accused me of complaining too much like the heroine addict's wife. Heroine is real, and a real addiction that one can deal with and fight. You are not even that, for you never show yourself or your true side. Only a mirage, an image of the front you want to present. For all the misery you have caused thousands of inocent, trusting people, I demand an accounting from you for your actions. Timmi

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 15:05:19 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Timmi, it's a registered church with ...
Message:
... the Internal Revenue Service, since 1971. That means its a church in every state in the US, for tax purposes, not just California.

Many churches file tax returns anyway, because it's hard to get contributors without some sort of disclosure to the contributors as to where their money is going.

EV (official name change from DLM with the Colorado Secretary of State in the 80s -- DLM was and EV is, a Colorado Corporation) is a church, but it is somehow not a religion, and they have no members (only 'volunteers' in the latest lingo (thanks to their lawyers or corporate advisers???).

But the true followers don't care. 'Call it anything. Let me see you, hear you and oh yes, pass that donation basket. We are participating. Honest!!!' So none of this matters to the true followers. The embarassing truth about their feelings about Maharaji is something that they don't come clean about to anyone but other true followers. That's what made websites like 'Please Consider This' so obviously pathetic. True followers say that they have to tell the government it's a church because the world doesn't understand a "Master." Funny that "a Master" can't have an ordinary non-profit that DOES have to file tax returns. Somehow disclosure isn't high on "the Master's" list.

Do you kiss the feet of your 'best friend' who doesn't even know who you are? Probably not. You've got some sense.

Best wishes in your marriage. I don't know what else to say. I feel for you; your pain comes out in your posts. Just another side effect of the destructive cult-mentality.

Peace and love,

Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 15:16:52 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: Timmi
Message:
I am so sorry to hear that your marriage is at risk and hope that your husband eventually sees Malarky for what he is and somehow you two will get back on track.
I know from experience that if you have tried to show him what m is and failed to open his eyes, then you might have to step back and let nature take its course.He might wake up yet but through influences other than yours.

wishing you strength
Z

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:30:45 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Gas for that jet of his
Message:
Does anyone have a mathematical brain that can calculate how much it will cost EV to fly that gulfstream 'round the country, plus hanger fees, for the latest round 'em up rodeo?

Have any of you sleuths found out exactly how much these mini halls cost? EV never tells the truth.

This is the kind of stuff pwk's need to know.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 15:14:26 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Cut to the chase
Message:
Pat explained this below. See the link. I would imagine the gas is paid for by the hosting community, as well as all other ancillary expenses, and M only goes where he can make the $$$$.

Oh the green, green love for the Master!

Francesca
[ Funding programs ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 04:54:26 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: A picture of that jet
Message:
Nice plane, shame about the Captain!
[ that jet of his ]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:20:49 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Costs
Message:
The halls can't be more than a few hundred dollars for a rental of a few hours. These are not large or prestigious locations.

For another organization I belong to, we sometimes rent large rooms in hotels for large, luncheons with maybe 1000 attendees. If you order food, the hall is free, if you don't, the cost is a few hundred dollars.

Flying his own jet to the East Coast would not be cheap, just for the fuel, landing fees and the rest, but again, even if it cost $30,000 for M's accommodations and transportation, we are talking netting probably at least $150,000 among the three 'events,' not counting the trinkets they will undoubtedly try to sell people, and the pressure to contribute even more money at the 'event' over and above the 'suggested donation.'

True, Elan Vital never reveals the actual, cost, receipts, expenses, etc., of anything it does, and, of course, when it comes to M we know even less.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 14:17:09 (EST)
From: potential Questioner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, What would You Ask..
Message:
Maharaji at an event such as the 'intimate' events with a relatively small audience of followers that he is currently doing, if given the chance? Something that would be most effective in exposing him to the audience of listeners. Something that could be said quickly before you had a chance to be shouted down. Something that didnt sound angry or vindictive, but sincere and real so that others in the audience who were listening might have cause to reflect on who this man really is who they paid $100 to listen to and what his motives really are. Any ideas,Joe? Anyone else? Verbage is important. Be as specific as possible.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 22:42:35 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: potential Questioner
Subject: Short and sweet question
Message:
Maharaji, don't you and Elan Vital have an ethical obligation to compensate those who were sexually abused by Mahatma Jagdeo?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 17:58:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: potential Questioner
Subject: MY question
Message:
As a practical matter, one's only going to have a brief moment to say anything before the mic's cut off, the ushers jump up, whatever. The question has to be a wedge, in essence, something that forces the moment and pries the discussion open. I think I'd say something like:

Maharaji, as you know many, many of your former followers have tried to initiate some diaolgue with you, get some answers, resolve a few serious and longstanding discrepencies in your teachings. However, we've been stonewalled and lied to at every turn. For example, Elan Vital's website where they say that you never claimed to be God. Maharaji, you know as do we all that that's a simple, bald-faced lie. The ex-premie website has a number of your quotes in which you very much claimed to be God. No question about it.

So here's my question, Maharaji: will you ever have the courage to face your past, the truth and us?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:47:36 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: good one, he would flip [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 14:25:41 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: potential Questioner
Subject: I doubt you could... BUT
Message:
You have to understand that even if Maharaji does a 'question and answer' arrangement, it is extremely unlikely that he would be asked anything confrontational.

First, there is TREMENDOUS group pressure in that room to do nothing of the sort. So, if someone were to ask, for example, about M's sexual conduct with his own followers, or whether he knew about Jagdeo's sexual abuse of children, etc., the vibe would be pretty awful.

Plus, Maharaji would just refuse to answer, laugh, or whatever, and the audience wouldf put no pressure on him to respond, even if all the questioners weren't selected in advance.

Plus, I would bet that the 'invitations' were sent to people pretty certain to NEVER do anything like that. Maharaj always wants everything VERY controlled when it comes to situations like that.

But I would say if there was ONE question that you could ask, for me it would be:

'Maharaji, there are been several reports of women who say they were sexually molested and even raped by Mahatma Jagdeo as children in the 70s and 80s, and claim they reported Jagdeo to Randy Prouty, Gurucharanand and Judy Osborne well over 20 years ago. We have also received reports that your organization held a meeting in Miami in 1985 to discuss the Jagdeo problem and the fact that he had also molested little girls in India years before. Can you explain why Jagdeo was allowed to tour in the US and other places in the World for years after you and your organization appear to have been aware of his child molestation, and until recently lived in a DUO ashram in India with full access to children?

That's the question I would ask.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:11:28 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Who the hell knows but it does mean money.
Message:
Since M was such a coward and didn't do Hans Jayanti he is very short of funds and intends to ensure his take for his troubles by extracting his fee up front, aka, the registration fee. 100 dollars or 85 dollars? That's alot. Is he bringing his little holy family to entertain? Daya perhaps?
No, this is so obvious, it's like it has ever been...money and ego and.....a message. Keep the cult members in the fold. Round up time for the bucking bronchos!

Take care, Tonette

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:55:41 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: My WAG
Message:
I don't know anything about the jet expenses and I bet they are exorbitant, but here's something:

IF the Rev flew first class to Philly and rode in a rented limo to the hall, stayed overnight, ate, drank, whored, and returned, he'd rack up maybe $5000 max at the first class accomodations level including hall rental. If he preaches to 300 people at $100 a head he can take home $25,000 in cash. Not bad for a fun night out. Notice he preaches from 5pm to 7pm. This allows plenty of time for a nice dinner and a relaxing evening in his private suite with a special friend, away from prying eyes and ears...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:34:05 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji Cult Attack Websites -- Day 16 (over, for now)
Message:
Through the excellent work of G who got Netomia's phone number in Denmark and Ulf, who contacted the server via phone, the last of the Maharaji cult websites has been taken down. Thanks so much to Ulf for making the call. Several of us had emailed them but got no response. Like someone said, because we were writing in English, they might not have understood.

All the other servers whom the premies used to put up those sites pretty much immediately dropped them when we complained. There were a total of SEVEN attack websites set up, two were copies of the original CAC website, and FIVE were new ones.

Note that we got ZERO help from either Maharaji or Elan Vital in this regard. In fact, I got an email from 'Elan Vital' which pretty much indicated that the organization agreed with the tactics of its members, and would not confirm that Maharaji did not know about, and did not approve of them.

I would like to make a request, and that's for everyone who can, to follow the lead of John MacGregor and 'COME OUT.' I know there are some reasons people can't, but I think there is safety in numbers and the more of us who post using our own names, the less likely Maharaji and his cult can come after us with the CAC-tactics.

Thanks again to Ulf. It just goes to show you we have a real cyber-community here, and like John said, it's everything the premie community was supposed to be, maybe was at one time, but hasn't been for a very long time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 14:52:21 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: BRAVO, G and Ulf!
Message:
Thanks for following through and getting that site taken down. I had also complained to Netomia via email, and had no response. Glad to see you succeed where the rest of us couldn't. Thank you!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:29:08 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks to Ulf and others
Message:
Thanks G and Ulf for doing the obvious - communicate to the host in Denmark in Danish. Also thanks to Francesca who encouraged the listees to complain to Netomia and other associated hosts. As Joe says, many of us sent complaints that were never responded to apparently because of the language barrier. The main point I used was that their Terms of Service Agreement barred sites that were meant to 'harrass or intimidate' which was about all that one did. I assume Ulf used that argument as well as the following now appears in place of HOLAH:

This website has been removed because of at least one TOS violation.

Richard

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:42:45 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Many thanks to Ulf and others [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:27:10 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: '411' got the phone number
Message:
I can't take credit, good work '411'. Thank you Ulf.
We should check later to see if other attack sites show up.
You make a good point about getting ZERO helf from Maharaji/
Elan Vital. They could have, and should have, contacted
Netomia themselves to have this web site shut down.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 16:44:12 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Except they're getting desperate G
Message:
EV's email to Joe shows this.

Thankfully their ability to think strategically, with a base in reality is nigh on zilch.
Yet more proof of cult thinking.

If you think how successful gm could have been if he had any brains and a smaller ego, maybe we should be grateful he's such a waste of space.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:39:49 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Who do you suppose 'General Maximal' is?
Message:
Just being suspicious, but G-M ? Maybe the Goomer himself? 'Maximal' indeed! Or some EV big cheese?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:14:59 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Sorry, thanks to 411
Message:
Also, one of the best ways to see if a new site is up, is to run your name through a search engine. That's how the last set of attack sites were found, unlike in the case of the first CAC attack, when an anonymous poster announced the site right on the Forum.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:11:13 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'm so glad that has ended..... for now.
Message:
I applaud all your work and effort. Everyone here. Down to the most insignificant poster, like me, who has only an interest in maintaining the forum, exposing the lies and seeking restitution. In my eyes, this is a public service. Membership in a cult is a waste of life and has proven in the past, many times, downright dangerous.

So, yes, people with information, musings, and first hand accounts, come out! It will help liberate you and will help many, many people.

Oh, I so hope that you, Joe, and the other victims of the cyber attacks are okay. A line was crossed here and I can only imagine the fanaticism that allowed the persons who authored these sites to do that. I worry about that. I'll be blunt and paranoid, I worry about your safety and the others named and identified on the CAC sites.
Please take care.

Tonette

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 18:29:12 (EST)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Thanks , happy i could do something, nt.
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:53:54 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: Hi Ulf...
Message:
I am so grateful for your efforts to help get that site offline.

How are you? Email me sometime.

Be well,
Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 08:57:14 (EST)
From: Salsa
Email: None
To: All
Subject: OT identification cards?
Message:
World control...

identification cards

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 07:34:45 (EST)
From: Maharaji's dilemna
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What to do, what to do?
Message:
Ok, his situation has gotten so bad that he must use cheap halls to turn a buck. It also serves the purpose of disguising the dwindling membership by using intimate regional events. He dares not have a North America or European only event for this will show the mass defections very clearly. He must also have 'spontaneous' regional events to disguise the poor attendance here. You know, give the attendees a built in excuse for empty seats in a small room.

So what must he do? Eventually he will be forced to play his last card which is restoring foot-kissing parties in the west. He will have to return with his full powers AGAIN. However this will be an act of desparation and will signal that the end is near.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 14:18:58 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Maharaji's dilemna
Subject: My Observation
Message:
It has gotten to the point where attrition is up, propagation is down
expenses are high and revenues are low.

With hardly any new blood coming into the fold, the organization is reduced to recirculating it's own resources. The cult has turned back in on itself cannabilizing and remarketing itself to itself.

You make a good point with the example of when all else fails he might even have to play the blatant 'Lord of the Universe' hand again to stay in business.

Good luck on making that strategy work with todays informed and discerning public.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 06:15:14 (EST)
From: Post by John Macgregor
Email: None
To: All
Subject: maharaji cult training sessions
Message:
Maharaji's Trainings:

Over the last year or so, people have pulled back from service, all over
the West. There are many factors behind this - including ex-premie.org,
people getting older and wiser, and continuing disillusionment with EV's
apparently permanent state of dysfunction. Poorly chosen and unpopular
leaders have played their role.

But interestingly, Maharaji's 'trainings' have also caused many people to
revise their commitment to M. Revise it downward, that is.

'Trainees' haven't generally analysed why this is. They express vague
discomfort with the trainings, but are unable to say what this stems from.
This is hardly surprising. To examine the trainings honestly, and come to
one's own conclusions about them, would lead one to the largest 'Do Not
Enter' sign in the premie catalogue: the one which involves an objective
ethical examination of Maharaji's activities.

Thus the vague, unsettling feelings persist - but (with the exception of
the minority whom the trainings propelled out of Knowledge) nothing goes
further than that.

Yet the fact remains: now the trainings are finished, people have withdrawn
from service en masse. Why?

Firstly, just about all premies have a bad attitude to EV thesedays. Given
that EV is just a bunch of volunteers - people like you and me - this is
curious. It's not exactly a monolith, and it has virtually no paid staff.
Indeed the latest reports suggest that it is fast sinking beneath the
waves.

I believe - and it's only a belief - that EV plays a role in displacing
premies' anger at Maharaji. EV is a 'safe' way of resenting M. It is a safe
place to direct blame for the pain, stunting, inconvenience, cost, fear,
guilt and anger which often lie below the surface of the premie's
much-vaunted satchitanand.

It's interesting to note that the instructors played a similar role in the
1970s and early 1980s: in satsang after satsang, Maharaji himself set them
up as targets for anger and abuse, which of course drew such emotions away
from himself.

But this time around, tho antipathy to EV is nearly universal, it has been
impossible to contain all the anger in this single vessel. For the first
time, considerable anger is being directed at Maharaji himself. Some
premies have gone the whole hog and left K; others quietly mutter but stay
in the fold; and others do not divulge their mutinous thoughts to other
premies, but think them nonetheless, divulging them only to outsiders.

IMO, more than any other factor, the trainings of the last few years are
responsible for this change. For large numbers of premies, the trainings
brought the EV cult psycho-dynamics - basically the techniques of thought
reform which are the basis of Maharaji's influence - into the daylight for
the first time.

The trainings also revealed something like the real Maharaji, to people who
had never previously been exposed to him - and those people have been
troubled ever since.

Maharaji's trainings were EV's central institutional methodology of the
1990s. They were to the 1990s what ashrams and satsang were to the 1970s.
Their importance in deepening and entrenching the Maharaji psychological
'spell' should not be underestimated. Their chief psychological weapon was
the mixed message (which I've discussed below).

Just as ashrams created a top layer of heavy-metal devotees with a 'single
idea' in the 1970s, so did the trainings select and create the same cohort
in the 1990s. In both cases the aim was to bring about a 'core' of 'clear'
devotees - clear as to who was Boss, clear as to organizational methods -
around whom a global mission could be built.

Among its other functions - many of which were highly enjoyable - satsang
in the 1970s was the vehicle wherein these clear devotees could deliver
the message (the 'truth') to the rest of the community, and bring everyone
into line with the general philosophy. Teams - which mixed core premies who
tended to lead with community premies who tended to follow, just as satsang
did - were meant to become this ideological delivery vehicle in the present
era. And the team thing was one of the main messages of the training.

So the trainings not only entrenched the message (Maharaji is always right,
et al), they also created the means for its further dissemination (teams).

Why did the trainings arise? Let's look at the timing.

Significantly, the trainings arose after the Amaroo Mutiny - the first blip
on the radar which alerted M that there was trouble brewing in Paradise:
that people were challenging the authority of his small group of
appointees, and therefore his authority. Amaroo was and is the jewel in M's
crown. A challenge to his authority there was probably very difficult for
him.

There have been several mutinies in Maharaji's world over the last decade -
some of them attracting emergency interventions by M's envoys. There has
been an Indian mutiny, the PR Team mutiny, and various mutinies at local
level throughout the US and Australia. But perhaps the most famous mutiny
was the Amaroo Mutiny (as Maharaji himself named it) of December 97-January
98.

The mutiny at Amaroo - Australia's cult-within-a-cult - brought the place
to a halt, saw its management team implode, scrambled the international
team to red alert - and nearly saw Amaroo sold off by an infuriated Lord of
the Universe. ('This is a mutiny! How dare they!' he said when told about
it.)

Basically, the Amaroo Mutiny was an attempt to democratise Amaroo - to
spread and diffuse the power to make decisions. The Mutiny began when the
management team imploded on December 21, 1997; it was led by several former
management team members.

The Mutiny was put down when Valerio Pascotto was sent to Amaroo (first by
the three-man facilitators' team, then, when M heard about the Mutiny, with
M's blessing). From memory, Valerio arrived in late January, 1998.

After his arrival, Valerio sat the perpetrators down and instituted
workshops which included self-criticism sessions - written and oral. These
lasted several days, and in time broke down all resistance. On Day One, all
participants were sat in a large horseshoe - with Valerio and his
note-taker at one end - and one by one asked to confess what role s/he had
played in causing the trouble. (The question was handed to participants the
night before on paper, so they could spend the night contemplating it.)

One attendee stated out loud that these sessions were 'medieval', and
refused to take part. However everyone else joined in.

For me, the most surreal aspect was that maybe a dozen people who'd had
nothing to do with the mutiny - who hadn't even heard of it in some cases -
took the blame for enough sins to fill a Catholic textbook. The word
'hysteria' barely does the atmosphere of these sessions justice. Some
people were so distraught they could not speak, when their turn came to
confess. Others seemed utterly destroyed at the thought that they had
offended the Master.

Before the sessions even began, Valerio had made it extremely clear that
Maharaji was very angry at us.

The Angry Daddy gambit is one of Maharaji's crudest yet most effective
psychological techniques. The Rawat psychology does not need to be subtle.
Because of our sincerity, we were extremely easy to manipulate: for Valerio
it was like taking candy from a baby. Some of the techniques may have
already been in place, from the 1996 international organisers' conference,
where these workshop-style settings began - specifically:

Childhood parental models were invoked to terrify potential dissenters;
philosophical closed-loops were reinforced, in which the master could never
be wrong; the 'group dynamic' was strengthened to dissolve individualism.

In the end, after some spirited resistance, we all caved.

Valerio told me I should be feeling 'grief' at what I had done to displease
M - and by the end of these sessions I believed he was right. I mention
Valerio's name here because it is simply unavoidable: he was central to the
Mutiny, and central to the trainings. Personally I always got on extremely
well with him, and we parted cordially. What I write here should not be
construed as an attack on him, but on the crazy psychology which possessed
us all. I don't use the word 'possessed' lightly. Like myself, Valerio was
in the grip of a powerful daemon, and under its influence we were as mad
and inhuman as each other. I participated in the sessions as fully as he
did.

Anyway, Maharaji should perhaps be grateful to the Amaroo mutineers: the
Mutiny provided not only the impetus for a global re-education program, but
many of the techniques employed in it.

In early 1999, the first prototype training was held at Amaroo. The model's
bugs were ironed out.

At this training M yelled at participants that they - the Amaroo premies -
were 'insane' and 'lunatics'. He used frequent war analogies, swore
violently, and was extremely angry much of the time. This is what convinced
many attendees that the Mutiny was on his mind.

He was so angry on one occasion that his hands shook, and he dropped his
whiteboard marker. After he'd done one of his 'storming out of the room'
routines (I think he trialled the technique at this first training), a PAM
came into the hall in tears: 'Maharaji's going to leave Amaroo unless we
get it together,' he sobbed. 'Unless we do what he wants.' Significantly,
what he wanted was never made clear.

One brave participant told Maharaji he thought that training's techniques
were reminiscent of the Nazi Party. He has not been singled out for
promotion!

After this trial run in early 1999, the trainings began in earnest in
various major centres.

The trainings were for premiedom's top 'resources' - mostly managers and
those with money. A seldom-appreciated refinement of this is that the
trainings were directed at 'resources' who were, with advancing maturity,
displaying symptoms of independent thought.

So - throughout the trainings - once again childhood models of authority
and obedience were 're-booted' within the greying skulls of Maharaji's
flock. Wealthy businessmen were reduced to obeisant, trembling children who
sometimes went dry-mouthed with fear; normally balanced, competent women
were driven, in several cases, to hysterical breakdowns. (NB: I don't want
to be sexist about it: there was ample hysteria on the male side as well.)

My training cost each of the 80 participants $A1000 to attend. (Tho I think
some full-time staff probably got freebies.)

Each training was different, and there were specialist trainings for (for
example) propagation and the residence/personal area staff. But the
overarching purpose of the trainings was what the Chinese call
're-education' - the Chinese approach and Maharaji's having considerable
common ground. These were the main elements, as I saw them:

- Insufficient loyalty to the master/government is profoundly stigmatized.

- Individuality is stomped on. The Chinese call it 'degenerate
individualism', Maharaji the 'Lone Ranger syndrome'. In both cases
self-criticism plays a central role in eliminating it.

- Mutual monitoring is stepped up and refined.

- Certain more trusted group members are secretly recruited by the trainers
to work against the interests of those who are to be made an example of.

- Blatant untruths are stated and restated, and eventually accepted,
despite evidence which contradicts them staring participants in the face.
(E.g. M's stating how hard he works to 'keep my body fit so I can carry out
this work'.)

- Disabling of logic, and destruction of will and volition, by organized
'mindfuck' games which nobody can win. (In some trainings, not a single
exercise was completed successfully, and not a single game was won. I guess
the subliminal message was: 'You cannot win.')

- Creation of confusion and thus compliance, by recurring mixed messages.
For example: M makes mistakes/M can't be challenged; claim your
territory/obey the master; if the food is no good, don't hesitate to tell
the kitchen/don't criticise others, or be 'political'.

- The inhibition of independent action by the ratcheting up of fear and of
paranoia. (Every participant could become the object of severe criticism,
could be expelled from the group, or could even be responsible for the
cancellation of the entire training, at any time.)

- Revival of the old 1970s fears in 1990s form: exclusion from the perfect
world of Knowledge, from the group's approval, and from the Master's
blessing. ('Cult members are systematically programmed with phobias so they
will be in terrible fear of leaving the cult. They are enslaved by this
mind control technique in thinking that there is no other way for them to
grow.' Ilona Cuddy, mental health degree masters project.)

- Recurrent use of what cult psychologists call 'the cult of confession' to
undermine the credibility of individuals acting outside of the master's
command. (The trainings began with a round of confessions, accompanied by
hysterical crying, a dramatic collapse or two, and claims of absolute,
total unworthiness. Interestingly, confession had not been called for by M
at this stage: premies had merely been asked to say what they expected and
hoped to learn from the training, and what they thought would be the most
difficult aspect of it. Yet out came the confessions of unworthiness and
shame. This undoubtedly says something about the psychological climate
within the wonderful world of Knowledge! In another session, participants
had to confess what their 'buckets' contained. People interpreted this to
mean, 'What are my faults?' The hyper-critical self-descriptions came
tumbling out: anger, fear, haste, hate, judgement, envy - and so on. More
tears, more wailing.)

- Closed circuits of logic were dusted off and re-presented for the group's
approval. (To put it at its crudest: 'We know Maharaji/the Communist Party
is the unchallengeable source of truth, because they most purely represents
that truth. We know they most purely represent that truth because they have
often told us this. We know that they are speaking the truth on this matter
because they are the unchallengeable source of truth.')

- Premies' sense of powerlessness and dependence was entrenched, partly -
and bewilderingly - via a set of complex and demanding training rules which
participants were led to believe that they created, but which were actually
insinuated into the process by the trainers.

- Fear and praise were alternated to implement the above and other
dynamics. (E.g. two trainers would play good cop/bad cop.)

- People's time was 100% occupied with pointless tasks - long, circular
meetings; unwinnable games - to obviate thinking and analysis, especially
about the high levels of mind control in evidence.

- In some trainings, long hours were employed to break down resistance to
thought reform. In others, participants were blindfolded for long periods,
to sow confusion and emphasise powerlessness.

- Acceptance of the amorality and immorality of M's world were further
entrenched. E.g. in one training, M said: 'If the team decides it's dark
outside, and you look out and see that it's light, IT IS DARK OUTSIDE!'

- Diminishing of individual discernment - and of individuality - by giving
exaggerated value to the 'team'. One whole exercise was directed to getting
individuals to 'merge with the team'. If that was the individual's goal,
what was the team's? It was, of course, to realise Maharaji's desires. Thus
the team dynamic was a kind of front for implanting Maharaji's control.

- Entrenching of top-down hierarchical structure, and unquestioning
obedience. E.g. M said, 'If a manager tells you to dig a hole immediately
above a buried electrical cable, the only thing you are to say is, 'How
deep?!'

- Demands for devotion were escalated. (E.g. one premie was quizzed on why
he spent his days in his high-profile job and ONLY his evenings, when he
was tired, doing service for M.)

- A system of rewards and punishments was instituted in ways that
undermined trust among members, but increased emotional dependence on
Maharaji. And in which no-one ever wins. (There is a broader, analogous
pattern of competition between PAMs for M's approval - a pattern M has
profitably maintained for 30 years - in which no-one ever 'wins'. No-one
ever gets to be Arjuna - he makes sure of it. The trainings utilize the
same 'rewards and punishments' model - though it's an intensified version
of it. In essence, the trainings aimed to take cult psychological
manipulation to the highest level that people will tolerate, and not begin
to smell rats.)

The trainings more than fulfilled cult author Steve Hassan's 'four criteria
for cult mind control':

(1) They had strict rules of behaviour. (Indeed one whole session was on
'What are you going to do to follow the rules?' M stated 'the whole purpose
of the training is to follow the rules'.)

(2) They employed thought control. (Thoughts expressing individuality or
challenging M were violently criticised; others such as 'Are we being
manipulated?' or 'Is M wrong?' were off the agenda altogether.)

(3) They employed emotional control. (Provoking M's anger - which happened
almost daily - threw participants back into childhood emotional states;
guilt and shame were employed repeatedly; and the group was frequently
divided against individuals or sub-groups.)

(4) Finally, the trainings restricted the flow of information to members.
(E.g. participants were led to believe that they themselves invented the
training rules, whereas in fact they were predetermined by M, and
insinuated into proceedings via an apparently 'democratic' process. Also
many of the group votes, and some of M's temper outbursts, were
pre-scripted. Those secretly approached to catalyse events such as the
expulsion of the scapegoat were told not to tell others about this.)

The trainings were run by psychologists, and other professionals.

The 'team' dynamic which dominated the trainings was not about democracy,
as the word 'team' might suggest, but was actually a mechanism for
reinforcing Maharaji's authority. I would not characterize this as another
deception, though, because it was made pretty clear from the beginning that
M alone stood outside the team - not only its membership but its ethics -
and the take-home, whole-of-life, bottom-line message that was driven home
on the last day - the rule of all rules - was simply 'Maharaji'.

It was a powerful bit of final programming that left no-one in any doubt as
to the focus of the training, and the expected future orientation of its
participants.

As I said above, the chief psychological weapon of the trainings was the
mixed message - of which Maharaji is a master:

If you don't like Knowledge, walk!
If you stop practising this Knowledge, you 'll go rotten inside.

I make mistakes.
How dare you criticise me!

Claim your territory.
Follow the master.

Trust yourself.
Trust the master.

Speak your mind when you see problems.
Don't criticise, and don't be political.

Are the tapes running? I am not God!
I have come to the world with full powers.

Everything is within you.
Everything is within Guru Maharaji.

The mixed message is (IMO) a double-barrelled shotgun which has blown away
even some of the cleverest of minds, because it is installed at a level
where intellect does not operate. Whether this is at the level of the God
archetype, the sub-conscious, or whatever, depends on your psychological
viewpoint.

The mixed message is a powerful thing. Typically, one half of it empowers
and expands, the other half intimidates and reduces; one half provokes
love, the other half fear; one half liberates, the other half enslaves.

People are powerfully hooked by both elements of the mixed message:
everyone wants to feel free, but we also want to obey a legitimate
authority. (Especially if we believe that authority to be God, or God's
representative.)

Above all, the mixed message strategically confuses.

We are 'freed' by Knowledge, but we find ourselves subjugated to the person
who gives us Knowledge.

At the surface level, a very reasonable explanation is put forward: that
person to whom you are now subjugated is the ocean of compassion, and is
thus the one person you can trust in this life. Unlike other people -
employers, friends, family: all of whom let us down eventually - he has our
best interests at heart, and will never let us down.

It would be pathological to be subjugated to any other person. But to be
subjugated to this person is acceptable, because he is the one person who
will not abuse this status.

Trusting souls that we are, most of us took many years to dig below this
logic. Because it brought us great comfort, we bought the surface
explanation. This allowed the freedom/slavery contradiction to disappear
below consciousness, where it long troubled us in strange and unpredictable
ways. Some of these 'ways' include the sapping of will or ambition, an
inability to promote or even explain Maharaji to outsiders, ethical lapses
we would not normally be prey to, clinging to 'safe' channels of thought,
and an almost wilful failure to follow 'risky' trains of thought through to
their logical conclusions.

The standard premie defence against criticism - I've heard it a lot lately
- is 'I'm just having a nice experience inside - what's cultish about that?
That's what this whole thing's all about.'

I usually point out that this whole thing is only partly about that: the
second half is about embracing Maharaji as your master. It's about
following his guidelines, obeying him implicitly, and it's about never
criticising him. That is, it's about putting him above the requirements we
apply to all other human beings.

Thus the first half of the M/K equation is about feeling good, freedom,
personal liberation, and so on. The second half, however, is about
obedience, never criticising, and following somebody else's agenda. The
entire Maharaji/Knowledge paradigm is founded on a mixed message.

Thus the premie's world is founded upon a dichotomy - a dichotomy which
(usefully enough) helps to disable both thought and volition.

Has Maharaji worked all this out? I doubt it. Masters like him - and there
are many - intuitively know how to place their cards: when to raise the
eyebrow, or voice, or standards, or stakes, to make people do their
bidding, or part with funds. When things don't work, he simply adjusts to
something that does. I doubt if he's thought through the mechanics of it
any more than I had till recently.

The trainings being an intensified form of the M/K paradigm, the mixed
message was naturally intensified within them. One need look no further
than some of the training rules - 10 seconds, conscious, respect,
confidentiality, honesty, unanimous - to see this:

* No-one was allowed to talk for more than 10 seconds without permission -
though this didn't apply to Maharaji.

* Participants had to be 'conscious'. Yet all participants remained
profoundly unconscious of the manipulation to which they were being
subjected - and even of how the training was constructed.

* Participants had to be extremely respectful of each other. Yet this rule
did not apply to Maharaji, who frequently unleashed obscenities at those
who angered him, or at the whole room.

* Confidentiality was emphasised over and over, as a way of creating a
'safe' environment for participants. Yet the trainings were emotionally
unsafe in the extreme - as evidenced by the fear and hysteria frequently
expressed. The likely real role of instilling confidentiality - to keep
information about M from outsiders - was never divulged. (I guess it was
confidential.)

* Honesty was urged on participants. Yet neither M nor the trainers were
honest with participants as to the real purpose and modus operandi of the
trainings.

* Decisions had to be unanimous. Unless Maharaji disagreed with them.

The ostensible purpose of the trainings was to instil teamwork - to convert
EV from a hierarchical model to a team model. And there seemed to be a
genuine attempt to do this at times. Yet the take-home message was
extremely hierarchical: Maharaji is the Boss. Anyone who showed signs of
disagreement with that was publicly shredded.

There were sincere if muddled attempts to practise the teamwork model in
the year after the trainings. However the wheels duly fell off: no-one
could ever quite make it work. This was for the same reason that the wheels
have fallen off every premie enterprise - including the original one, of
lasting happiness: mixed messages don't take root.

It's within me, but I kiss Maharaji's feet. I'm free, but I'm a servant. I
contain the source of all wisdom - yet he is the real source of all wisdom.
On the conscious level, we were pretty good at rationalising such
contradictions. But on the levels which are important, where people
secretly and quietly grow, the psyche can't make any sense of such
messages. Plants won't mature if you pour on nitrogen and herbicide at the
same time.

My notes from the training make scary reading, now that (two years later)
I've deconstructed the experience. I noted down various people's
statements, motions and amendments throughout the week - for example:

* I propose that we all apologise to Maharaji. (This was a popular one,
given that the thing was set up so no-one could do a thing right.)

* I take personal responsibility for failing the rules and the team. I wish
to re-commit to the rules and the team.

* I accept responsibility for the team's failure. I apologise. I will
follow the rules.

* I propose we renew our commitment to the team and the rules.

You get the picture.

Some premie readers will find the comparison with Chinese-style
're-education' offensive. However I suspect that those who actually
attended trainings will be slower to take offence. I don't know one of
these people who doesn't have lingering doubts.

To really identify these doubts - to drag them out into the daylight -
would necessitate entering the mental no-go area wherein Maharaji's
behaviour is evaluated like anybody else's. It's a place to which many are
not yet prepared to go.

Who knows? This may have been one purpose of another of the training's
rules: no dark thoughts.

Maybe a description of the darker side of the trainings will bring some
better definition to this process. (You thought you'd already read the dark
stuff, right?)

The Scapegoat:

The ritual humiliation, victimisation and frequently the expulsion of the
designated 'black sheep' in some (but not all) trainings has left even some
of the staunchest premies with dark thoughts.

This scapegoat would be picked on the basis a minuscule personal sin, which
was then magnified out of proportion by M. S/he would be verbally
humiliated by Maharaji at some length.

Most premies are basically nice people. Thus the group - often around 80
people - would not want to hurt the scapegoat by supporting M's abuse, but
would not want to offend M either. So everyone would listen to the voluble
obscenities in silence - many weeping.

Everybody realized that there but for a throw of the dice were they: the
scapegoat was picked because s/he was a personality who would absorb
humiliation, not because of anything s/he had done wrong.

Eventually Maharaji's anger at the scapegoat would prevail in the room.
After much equivocation and many attempts at compromise, finally someone
would stand up and move the motion that everybody had been dreading: the
motion to expel the scapegoat from the training, and cast him or her into
the outer darkness, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The motion would be duly carried by a shamefaced but intimidated group. The
scapegoat would be sent out of the room permanently - everybody avoiding
his gaze as he left.

After the expulsion from Paradise, the scapegoat was to be seen sitting
alone and unloved around the campfires, silent and morose, like a recently
disembodied spirit unsure of whether he was alive or dead. I tried to talk
to the scapegoat from my group one night: he was unable to talk.

To make it worse, this 'spontaneous' collective scenario was a set-up:

Typically around Day 3, a suitable candidate would be taken aside during at
dinner, and told that something 'really serious' was going to happen next
day - that someone was going to 'take a fall' in order 'to bring the
loyalty issue to a head'. And that s/he would be a suitable person to get
up at that juncture and organise an apology to Maharaji, and move the
scapegoat's expulsion. (Naturally the word 'scapegoat' wasn't used.)

Sure enough, at one stage during the next day's session, a member of the
group would make the mistake M had been waiting for - and all hell would
break loose.

After a protracted period in which the group failed to expel the member -
which they were clearly required to do - the pre-chosen person would stand
up and say: 'I move that ________ be expelled from the training.'

And so he was.

(Incidentally, the person so expelled in my training was subsequently flown
to the Delhi training free of charge, on Maharaji's instructions: M is a
tyrant/M is compassionate!)

I suspect that pre-chosen people were also employed for other crucial
tasks, such as the Ritual Humiliation of the Dissenter, and the Begging for
Forgiveness Ritual.

During one training, an attendee begged to differ with M on a particular
point. Maharaji screamed that it didn't 'matter so much as a fart what you
think!' After some more generalised screaming, he stormed out of the room.

When the wailing and gnashing of teeth stopped (that's not poetic licence
this time), a (pre-selected?) person would step forward, and propose that a
group apology be devised. There would then be endless argument and
discussion and voting re the wording: this could literally go on for two
hours because of the requirement for unanimity on every word. Finally a
card would be drawn up, and signed by all.

The card would bear such wording as 'We are truly, deeply sorry', 'We
apologise from the bottom of our hearts' and 'We wholeheartedly beg your
forgiveness'. (The word 'pathetic' barely begins to describe these
rituals.)

The card would then be sent to Maharaji, who would - after an appropriately
suspenseful interim - reappear at the training, and gravely compliment the
group on 'finally learning something'.

Anyway, what was the upshot of all this nonsense?

1. As a result of the trainings, there was a rush of 'trainees' to the
doorsteps of physical and even psychological therapists. Several attendees
quit Knowledge altogether.

2. Since the trainings tuned everyone up for 'greater and more focused
participation', nearly the entire global community has 'stepped back' from
doing service.

3. Back at Amaroo, because of the trainings' overwhelming emphasis on
'confidentiality', team meetings became covert operations.

4. Other than for the all-pervasive secrecy, and whilst teams do exist, the
actual teamwork mechanisms instilled by the trainings are now widely viewed
as unworkable.

Ultimately, the trainings were not at all about learning things like
'respect' and 'consciousness', as the training rules suggested. If they
were, Maharaji himself would have been frogmarched out the door in the
first hour. Nor were they about learning the techniques and approaches
inherent in the exercises: most of these are now passe in the corporate
world from which they derive.

The trainings were about re-learning and reinforcing deep psychological
attitudes of gratitude and subservience to an omnipotent father figure,
whom many of us encountered in our impressionable teens or early twenties.
Basically, they were a mid-life re-boot.

For the founders of ex-premie.org (who deserve all the praise that comes
their way) here is what a long-term insider, and a participant of two
trainings, says:

'I have no doubt that the fanatical insistence on confidentiality which the
trainings instilled - absolutely everything thereafter was 'on a
need-to-know basis' - was to stem the flow of information to ex-premie.org.
So all of that mindfuck was about Maharaji getting scared of the
information being gained by the ex-premie website.'

So, that's all on the trainings.

Whilst I'm fairly confident that everything of a factual nature in these
posts can be supported, I doubt there is any final 'truth' in the
psychological realm. I put all that out there for what it's worth. For me,
the real 'truth' lies in just being able to think it and say it.

Posts like this one are often initially seen by premies as 'the product of
a bitter, twisted mind', a 'wild distortion of Maharaji's work', 'vengeful,
malicious fiction', etc, etc. Hate, rage and personal attacks (shooting the
messenger) are very much to be expected. (I gather we've seen some of it
here lately.)

In my experience, all this generally continues until one has had the chance
to sit down and discuss the subject one-to-one. On these occasions - when
real communication can happen - the hostility gradually melts away,
concessions are made, and in some cases the exiting process begins.

So I only regard this stuff as 'information' - useful to back up
statements, and so on - but somewhat less useful than personal contact when
it comes to changing premies' ideas, which are deeper-entrenched than any
of us could have imagined.

The post I'd really like to write - if I knew how - is what caused us to
have the experiences we had? I had some extraordinary experiences in
meditation - which I'm fairly satisfied can be attributed to some rather
complex brain chemistry.

But I also had some extraordinary experiences around Maharaji - and equally
extraordinary ones around Bal Bhagwan Ji. Others have entered sublime
states of consciousness around Mata Ji, Rasputin and Adolf Hitler. What
causes this stuff?

I've got a few superficial answers - e.g. projection - but they don't
really satisfy me. Maharaji's cognac intake is all very interesting, but to
me this is the real nub of the matter. After three decades - all thoughts
are welcome.

Best wishes to all,

John

PS: These posts seem to be circulating through the premie community
somewhat. Those premies who wish to discover more about their master and
his activities might have a look at www.ex-premie.org

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 23:05:00 (EST)
From: News Flash
Email: None
To: All
Subject: M doing Northern California Event
Message:
I heard from a friend living in Santa Cruz that she was called on the Phone Tree and told Maharaji is having a Northern California. The 'Donation' is $100 a head and its called 'an Evening With Maharaji'. Thought I'd give everyone a heads up. Does anyone know anymore? I still believe it would be great if someone would go to one of these and embarass Maharaji with a Few Spoken Comments about His Hidden Behavior and where people can find out more about what their Master is really like. But thats just me. Does anyone have any more info on this program?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:42:39 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: News Flash
Subject: Emergency Fundraisers
Message:
This is the quick way for Maharaji to raise cash. Just do small programs and carry away bags of money by over-charging everyone. Pwks on the West Coast actually have to pay 20% more than those on the East Coast. What discrimination!

So, Maharaji flies around the USA making short appearances and collecting about a hundred grand per location. That should help with the upkeep of his $7 million yacht!

What a racket! If Maharaji was about "spreading knowledge" and actually cared about the welfare of his followers, he would charge $10, and sell his yacht and pay off his debts that way. But why should he, when he can milk those poor premies from the 70s now pushing 50, who still think he is, or just might be, God.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 14:14:42 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Apart from the attendance fees...
Message:
....to get into the event, the community which hosts Rev Rawat has to come up with ALL the upfront costs such as travel expenses, hall rental and hotel bills for Rawat and entourage.

This is what the local PWKs were working on last year - to raise enough money to finance the Speaker's visit. It took the Bay Area four years to save enough money to cover the upfront costs.

Only when it is demonstrated that this money is available will one's ''invitation'' to the Speaker be taken seriously. The individual registration fees are gravy er profit er fundraising.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:50:04 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Absolutely right on!
Message:
Yep, it's so obvious. And I would bet a paycheck that there will be some reference to the goings on here in this forum. A veiled comment about us as ex's, the internet, or some of his doings! A quasi apology for let's say, ahem, some of M's shortcomings?
Some, but not all premies are not that STUPID! He's going to drive even more from the flock! I only hpoe that M really loses it emotionally and starts ranting at the audience, aka, ashram satsang!

Oh I hope this forum gets a report. I'll try and find out about Philadelphia.

Love you and your posts Joe,
Tonette

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:09:47 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: News Flash
Subject: Finally
Message:
He's finally doing those local, intimate, up close and personal events he promised three years ago and never delivered. Of course, now with EPO, he has to go and do some damage control. And the fact that not all posters have Smartcards, hence the need for photo id. Invitation only? Who's he scared of? What's he scared of?
If he had nothing to hide, the door, which he claimed is 'always open', wouldn't be by invitation only. Amazing how premies buy into the need for M's security. I can only imagine what spiel he's going to deliver this time. No doubt, it will be thinly disguised to stay as close to knowledge and the master in these perilous times of EPO trying to sweep pwk's away with factual truth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:47:37 (EST)
From: From NY
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Intimate events
Message:
He did allow questions from the audience last night in NY. Probably shills, stationed in various locations. Or maybe since they were all invites, he did not need to worry about someone asking him about his mistress, Monica, or 'How are things in Amaroo?'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 02:11:14 (EST)
From: Fly on the wall
Email: None
To: News Flash
Subject: Re: M doing Northern California Event
Message:
'by invitation only' (for premies only) program at the SF Hyatt by the airport this Friday (11/23) from 3 to 5 PM.

$100 bucks a head. Smartcard or photo ID. The only ones who will get in are those who are invited. For many are called, but few are frozen.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:21:43 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Fly on the wall
Subject: Gee Joe and Pat....
Message:
I didn't get my invitation? Did you get yours? Maybe I can get in with my Smartcard anyway.

There's always free speech on the sidewalks. And in the hotel if you rent a room.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 13:48:13 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: No Nazi Party Card er SmartCard...
Message:
I was told about it two weeks ago but did not believe it. The person who told me, a premie, is not bothering to go as he also does not have a Cult ID Card and resents having to have one. However they do have my pic from CAC and I am on their verboten list.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:13:05 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Dern, SF is too far to ride
Message:
And I'd play out my best horse tryin' to get there on time. But now the Reverend Rawrat is riding the circuit, do you think if I proffered a right proper invitation to the Speaker, he'd come to McCleary? Folks in McCleary is mighty needin' of the Reverend's medicine. I never seen a sorrier bunch in my life. No appreciation, no graditude, not a dern bit of clarity. These here lost souls need the Teacher's Nollidge somethin' fierce.

But I ain't a goin' back on my promise to the Captain. You won't catch me pokin' folks, and showin' 'em their breath and stuff. That takes a Real Reverend and a Real Church and an Org and jets and assorted what have ya's. And a real bright bulb like the Captain to light folk's filaments I'd imagine...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 17:25:12 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Is he visiting TED Farkel's place?
Message:
Geez TED, the Lord is making alot of visits these days. Have you extended an invite to the TRAC center? Maybe you could replace the beer with cognac just for this special event!

Love always, Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 17:42:52 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne have you been tippling agin???
Message:
Don't go mixin' me up with that dern fool Farkel and his grease monkey beer swilling hubcap swingin' Dave Smith sodomizin' buncha georgia red neck corn pones.

We're civilized in McCleary. The Lard could stay at Penney and Everett's B&B for $45 a night with a continental breakfast in the morning. No unmarried folks can share a room though.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:25:44 (EST)
From: SF Registered Voter
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: To the Airport on Friday?
Message:
Hand out copies of John MacGregor's post, along with a copy of the CAC statement, along with, gee, what else? Oh yeah, cards with the URL of Ex-Premie.Org on them. I'm sure we would do a brisk business, and we can't charge, because after spending $100 to sit in hall for two hours, the Pwks will have little cash left.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:35:13 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: SF Registered Voter
Subject: To the Airport on Friday? Bad Idea...
Message:
With the nations airports on high security alert, I don't think going to the airport is too wise a suggestion.

I think the only brisk business would be the armed guards escorting you right out of the airport and possibly to jail. Plus, people using the airports are nervous enough...you think they are going to even touch anything handed out to them? Think please...

It's not a time to be messing around airports.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:39:37 (EST)
From: SF Registered Voter
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: It's at a hotel, not the airport
Message:
So I don't think we would have the security problem. The Hyatt is actually about a quarter mile from the airport, a little South, along Interstate 101. It's quickest to take the Millbrae exit, rather than the airport exit.

True, if you rent a hotel room, the hotel security cannot expel you from the hotel for exercising your free speech rights, and if they do, there is always the public sidewalk.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:37:34 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Airport Hilton
Message:
The Airport Hilton is not part of the San Francisco Airport, Cynthia. It's a mile or so down the freeway. The hotel is completely independent from the airport.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:35:30 (EST)
From: busybill
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I'll be ready for his next tour [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:17:33 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Go for it!
Message:
But be careful and do the rest in e-mail. Away from the forum.

Yes, I'm paranoid but there's alot of traffic here and no need to tip your hand.

Take care and I worry, worry, worry, Tonette

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:39:42 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Airport Hilton
Message:
Good, I got a bit nervous about anyone going to the airport. Now about that banner....

How about another ''Give Maharaji money, He'll give you breath''

Be well

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:30:22 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: SF Registered Voter
Subject: Marry Me Monica Banner?
Message:
What about that too? Always one of the most inspired ideas for educating the masses.

SF RV, you know how to reach me.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 16:47:22 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: How about 'I'm a brunette, what's wrong with me'
Message:
or 'guru's have rites too, what's wrong with me shagging premies and shooting bunnies?'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:50:10 (EST)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Fly on the wall
Subject: Many are chilled but few are frozen
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:50:08 (EST)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Fly on the wall
Subject: Many are chilled but few are frozen
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 03:44:15 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Fly on the wall
Subject: Corporate Downsizing
Message:
Todays marketing formula , reduce overhead, increase prices. Translation, Lower overhead yields higher profit from smaller support base.

$100.00 ? I'll bet that just gets you in the door, probably to a cheap seat in the worst section if not the furthest away.

The massage rub to extract your money is applied with 'the invitational only' exclusive offer to be one of the fortunate few to see the speaker of the universe a little more up close and personal. Now what proper premie wouldn't buy into that idea?

This blatant manipulation amounts to little more than show-up and pay-up to maintain good cult membership standing.

These tactic's and cutbacks are a sign of the failure of M and the cult to develop and maintain positive market growth in the cult business. The current trend also reflects the effects of attrition and indicates continued future growth dissipation.

If M truly had the real thing, as he said he did, the numbers would surely be busting, business would be booming and the big arena's would be booked solid.

The way it looks, interest in the Boss is down, the numbers are diminishing, there are many vacant seats left unfilled, and the cult is leaking like a sieve.

The cult is now merely involved in recycling and devouring its remaining resources, feeding on itself, M is preaching mostly to the choir, propagation is suffering badly as the congregation nods off in boredom and/or searches for the exits.

Brian the bean counter

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:54:21 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Kinda like the Rotary Club or somethin'
Message:
You join those community clubs and you have an obligation to pay your dues and show up at the meetings. No pay, no show, and out the door you go.

I'll bet a lot of pooreer premies have already been priced out of the action. Best thing for 'em, IMO. But you're right the corporate model of streamlining the cult to the more 'profitable' invitees makes sense.

It's probably like this: Rawrat needs to go to Philly for something or perhaps just wants to go for a ride on his 40 million dollar jet so he can take a little ride on the his 107 foot yacht in Rhode Island whiles he's at it and so he needs to cover expenses so the Org hires hall and calls the local most likelies and viola! 200 people at $100 each plus whatever he can wring out of them in the meeting nets a nifty $20,000 guaranteed. Not bad for a couple hours of puttin' on da Massa for the doggies. Of course, he's greedy so he hits up West Chester and maybe another town or two he hasn't worked for a while and takes his tax-free loot back to his dilapidated Malibu mansion. (That is, after he parks his helicopter.)

Yes, Da Massa has become Rev Captain Rawat Filament Speaker Teacher and he rides a high tech circuit in style bringing his heartfelt message to keep breathin' and keep passin' the hat.

It's not easy being a millionaire...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 11:29:54 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I got my phone tree message!
Message:
It's kinda funny. We got the 'message' for the Philadelphia program. All I can say is the EV monitors must be incompetent. Surely if they were able to put two and two together, they would know by now that both my husband and I are ex's. At least me anyway. My husband, well, he's no longer a premie but does not post here. I think he reads some of this forum anyway. My point is, if EV had any sense about them, they would take us off their mailing list and the 'phone tree.' The only thing I can do is provide more food for the fodder of the absolute shit Maharaji has become.
Who here says practicing Knowledge makes you grow? Look at your Master! He's still an adolescent in his thinking and his actions.

What a hoot this is.

These programs are a drive for guilt-ridden fund raising and to tighten the hold as well as sychronizing the flock. Probably a big message of devotion woven in the web too!

More will flee. Most premies are not that stupid!

Laughing here, Tonette

Return to Index -:- Top of Index