Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Nov 17, 2001 To: Nov 23, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


JHB -:- Not a tree falls...... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:53:17 (EST)
__ Pat:C) -:- I was just thinking about you -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:06:14 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- When you're surrounded by forests... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:13:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: When you're surrounded by forests... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:22:09 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca ~) -:- Here's another item for catching up -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:41:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Fran, You're a Gem...OT -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:41:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca ;C) -:- Aw shucks (OT) -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:10:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Ever been to Chicago?? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:34:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Rootskis -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:18:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Re: Rootskis -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:14:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Thanks, Francesca -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:57:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Latvia (OT) -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:16:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- One of these days a real Latvian night maybe -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:15:01 (EST)

Philly Dogg -:- MJ in Philly: you got fooled (again) -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:42:57 (EST)
__ don -:- how expensive was the fun ?? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 05:08:37 (EST)
__ __ Philly Cheese Steak -:- $85 but where's the beef? -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 05:17:33 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Oh Yeah! -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 05:18:21 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Brilliant, Brian. Happy Thanksgiving to you! [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:24:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Thanks Pat, Happy Thanksgiving to you -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 14:11:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Well, I'm cooking too -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 14:34:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Wow, what a menu, I have got to get down to SF -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:02:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- I'm closing the first two weeks -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:24:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Yummmmmy :P -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:25:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Just let me know when, Deborah -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:18:03 (EST)
__ cq -:- Do all premies like spreading lies?(nt) -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:08:24 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- Wow -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 21:10:17 (EST)
__ busy bill -:- not next tour buddy [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:36:55 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- You're up to something ;) -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 22:24:58 (EST)
__ __ b -:- anyone know the number on the jet? [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:39:51 (EST)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- N54PR -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 09:09:01 (EST)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: anyone know the number on the jet? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 02:08:57 (EST)
__ Barbara -:- Re: MJ in Philly: you got fooled (again) -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:22:02 (EST)
__ __ Ohhh Noooo -:- Planet of the Monmots ALL Over again! -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:34:49 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Good One, Barbara! [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:43:59 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Re: MJ in Philly WHO got fooled (again) -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:27:29 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Living in the Past? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:00:16 (EST)
__ Philly Mole -:- Re: MJ in Philly: you got fooled (again) -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:50:15 (EST)
__ __ A fly on the wall -:- Dont worry PhillyDog probably isn't in Philly -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:56:15 (EST)

Joe -:- What do 'Trainings' have to do with K???????????? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:14:35 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Training is Nothing about K, 100% about control [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 05:26:59 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- My view on Rawat's business -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 05:06:37 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- AMEN Jean-Marie -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:03:08 (EST)
__ __ __ Uh Oh -:- I think you mean Jean-Michel [nt] -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:58:24 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Agreed, but... -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:30:06 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Schizophrenic -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:00:56 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: What do 'Trainings' have to do with K?? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:06:15 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Did it work?? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:18:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Did it work?? -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 10:44:30 (EST)
__ Nick -:- Re: What do 'Trainings' have to do with K? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:36:42 (EST)
__ __ Pullaver -:- Gopi or Groupie?? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:30:15 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- How about ... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 22:44:00 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Question to John/Michael/Lesley -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:30:17 (EST)
__ __ Michael McDonald -:- Re: Question to John/Michael/Lesley -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:14:21 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca :) -:- Great post, Michael, been enjoying your comments [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:01:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Michael McD, I sure hope that... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 19:28:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- The Long-timers -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:48:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Right on, Joe -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:06:02 (EST)

Abi -:- Question for MacGregor -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:33:36 (EST)
__ Abi -:- paranoia -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 19:08:41 (EST)
__ JHB -:- John is slow at responding -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:37:11 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Did CW ever phone you -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:45:58 (EST)
__ __ Abi -:- of course not -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:13:40 (EST)
__ such -:- over a cuppa... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:30:30 (EST)
__ __ Abi -:- true -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:21:40 (EST)
__ __ __ such -:- cult co-codependency cycles... [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 19:56:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ such -:- cult bacteria spore petrie dish -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:06:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- a bit like that -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:15:28 (EST)

salam}) -:- bloody knuckle heads at AG -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:01:29 (EST)
__ such -:- summarize da facts;Abi quotes;EV -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:04:12 (EST)
__ __ salam -:- Re: summarize da facts;Abi quotes;EV -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:26:35 (EST)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Re: summarize da facts;Abi quotes;EV -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:18:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Re: summarize da facts;Abi quotes;EV -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 19:12:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Tell me more -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:57:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Tell me more -:- Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:28:58 (EST)

New John Macgregor post -:- Not to be missed -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:59:51 (EST)
__ Abi -:- Re: Not to be missed -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:35:01 (EST)
__ __ John -- actually this post is by **** -:- Re: Not to be missed -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:43:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Not to be missed -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:18:21 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Thanks John and a Question -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:09:54 (EST)
__ __ Abi -:- is the 'John' here MacGregor? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:22:03 (EST)
__ __ __ Troll Alert -:- John MacGregor uses a Mac [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:23:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Was there a troll attack? Gerry? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:04:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- It was **** -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:08:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- He must have gotten a new IP# -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:15:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- will the real one come forward please -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:36:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Abi, this thread was a repost -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:16:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- I know that -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:25:10 (EST)

Lesley -:- The Trainings, another Subjective View -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:24:40 (EST)
__ JHB -:- *** J-M, Best of *** -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:49:17 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Thanks Lesley. -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:49:48 (EST)
__ __ Moll of Mole -:- Re: Lesley, -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:52:01 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- You're right ... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:16:08 (EST)
__ Joy -:- Waiting for God -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 04:23:34 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- I remember that, too -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:56:31 (EST)
__ __ __ janet -:- here's my mindfuck in that file: -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:35:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: here's my mindfuck in that file: -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:19:08 (EST)
__ __ Lesley -:- Re: Waiting for God -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:20:57 (EST)
__ Michael McDonald -:- Subjective, indeed -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:24:42 (EST)
__ __ Lesley -:- Happy hours, bad jokes, and fall guys -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:35:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- feudalistic trance line LOL! -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:55:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: feudalistic trance line L (with text)OL! -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:58:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- See, Lesley's a poet! [nt] -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:30:23 (EST)
__ __ Frend -:- Indeed, subjective -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:16:37 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- What's any of this have to do with Knowledge? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:44:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- LOL, very good question -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:51:28 (EST)
__ __ __ Asst FA -:- Frend/Alledaine stick to one alias [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:29:28 (EST)
__ __ __ G -:- omelette -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:09:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Intuition -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:07:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- 'Emotional Intelligence' -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:53:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Abi -:- what drivel -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:26:13 (EST)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- More! More! Lesley and Mr McD. -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 03:30:19 (EST)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- poetic version -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:29:27 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Emotional abuse is worse than physical abuse -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:39:22 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Yeah! -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:50:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- X-rated. R-rated and PG-rated PWKs -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 03:37:59 (EST)

Jim -:- Maharaji Question Contest -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:12:22 (EST)
__ Suedoula -:- Re: Maharaji Question Contest -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 07:51:00 (EST)
__ What % of that darshan cash -:- do you report to the IRS? [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 06:37:40 (EST)
__ Dave Punshon -:- If M is all knowing..... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:00:08 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Can I have my trust fund back? (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:19:44 (EST)
__ __ RichMandrake.. -:- Joe PLEASE tell me that was a Joke. -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:20:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Carl -:- He's not the only one -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:51:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Carl and Joe--sue RAWAT [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 22:31:59 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Joe, an idea... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:53:59 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Yes, Marianne.... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:51:21 (EST)
__ busy bill -:- Re: Maharaji Question Contest -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:33:56 (EST)
__ Carl -:- Maharaji Questions -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:27:54 (EST)
__ __ Carl -:- How could I forget? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:36:15 (EST)
__ G -:- Questions -:- Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:28:22 (EST)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Questions -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:56:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Tami Sunshine Rainbow -:- Re: Questions -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:18:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jon Peters, Hairdresser to the Stars -:- LOL...the best one yet ;) [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:28:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ M's Response -:- Ask Me again AFTER your Boob Job -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:23:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ M's Other Response -:- What do you mean? -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:01:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Hey, M-fella, what do you want..... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 04:05:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Psst! Can I have your Krishna drag... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 03:53:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Maharaji, remember... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:14:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Krishna Krown Keeper -:- Here it is -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:19:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ I melted it down -:- and made a jeweled 'throne' in the lav [nt] -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:46:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ You can't melt down -:- precious stones...but... -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:11:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Precious stones.....you sure can sell them! -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:45:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Precious stones.....you sure can sell them! -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 09:57:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- All that glistens.... -:- Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:28:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tcheuki -:- But really. -:- Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:11:40 (EST)


Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:53:17 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Not a tree falls......
Message:
Well, Latvenergo, our wonderful electricity company, finally arrived today and in freezing temperatures and falling snow, replaced the three fallen posts and reconnected the power lines, so I'm back! We had six days without power, but we did get limited power last night after I bought a generator. Not so easy after a storm as the small stock the shops hold quickly gets sold. Next time (and as long as we rely on overhead power lines in a heavily forested country there will be a next time) we'll have the generator set up to power the whole house.

Anyway, John Macgregor's trainings post is now on EPO. Further updates are coming!

John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:06:14 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I was just thinking about you
Message:
...while I was making a copy of McGregor's training post before it scrolled off in case it took a while to get into archives as I thought you may be off-line for much longer and I want to send it to a premie.

Glad you're back and didn't freeze.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:13:36 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: When you're surrounded by forests...
Message:
... heating isn't a problem and our woodshed is full, but all the water had to be hauled from the well. I can go without washing for a few days, but the horses can't go without drinking. Also, just being deprived of daily entertainment such as TV and the computer wears you down after a few days. I still love living here though!

John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:22:09 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: When you're surrounded by forests...
Message:
Hi John,

Welcome back. I live in a forest now too. I love it so much but it does take a bit more work to survive. Good that you have a generator. The same thing happens in Vermont when power goes out...all the generators sell out in a day.

Hauling water is a tough one. I did that when I was a kid and we had horses. Well, enough babble about the joys of life in a forest.

Isn't Francesca incredible to have all those links for you?

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:41:47 (EST)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Here's another item for catching up
Message:
John MacGregor had a bit of a follow-up to the Mindfuck post, re some of the fallout and some more observations.

Also, Lesley had a post on the trainings that is a great read.

And Michael McDonald had some interesting comments to Lesley's post.

Welcome back, but Latvia sounds lovely. My Polish great grandparents on my mother's side raised horses. Never met any of them; nor did my own mother, as my grandparents came over "on the boat."

Bests,

--f
[ John's follow up to Mindfuck ]

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:41:12 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca ~)
Subject: Fran, You're a Gem...OT
Message:
Hi Francesca,

You're a sweetie putting all those links together for John. But, I wanted to talk to you about your Polish heritage. I'm 100% Polish-American. My grandparents on both sides came to the US through Ellis Island.

My parents (prior to divorce) traveled to Poland twice and met their aunts, uncles, cousins. My mother's family were city folk and my father's folk were country folk.

When people talk about the Nazi's here, I remember stories passed down from my grandmothers on both sides to my own Mom. My father's family had to hide in the forests of Poland during the Nazi invasion. The Nazi's just took over villages, homes. They weren't Jewish, but Roman Catholics, But the Nazis didn't like them either.

They lived with infants in the forests through winter, eating bark, grass, and fought injuries and infections. They always had to hide. The Russians came upon them at one point and gave them potato soup which was a big meal.

I was always ashamed to be Polish during my childhood, but since learning so much about my heritage, I've had the opportunity to learn to appreciate all the good things about Poland. My Mom told me it is a very beautiful place.

Anyway--thanks for being so sweet...sometimes I wish we had become roomies in San Francisco (ashram). I do hope to meet all of you west coast exes some day. I've never seen the Pacific!

Much Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:10:32 (EST)
From: Francesca ;C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Aw shucks (OT)
Message:
Cynthia,

Actually I'm 1/2 Polish 1/2 Italian, 2nd generation American. They ALL came over on the boat. It s really funny, we don't know too much about our roots. On the Italian side, they spelled my grandfather's name several different ways on official papers!

I do know that my Polish grandmother was always sending things back to folks that were stuck in Poland. They were Roman Catholic so it was a good thing they got out. Under Communism, Roman Catholicism was a political and social movement, not just a church. I read several books about Solidarity and Father Jerzy (Solidarity's priest) a number of years ago.

My mother did go to Poland (she and my aunt can speak Polish). My mom went for a summer study program when she went back to college when she was in her 60s, and studied at a Polish university and did a little travelling.

We were a lower middle class family in an extremely wealthy county. (Fairfield County in Connecticut was, at least at the time, the wealthiest county in the US, and may still be.) So being Polish-Italian in a rich town was interesting -- I had a bad attitude to say the least. Luckily I was intellectual, because many of the Italians were 'greasers,' i.e. hoods.

We had a book of Polish jokes and knew more of them that the people who could make fun of us. We thought the Polish jokes were funny. When I read about the Polish people they are generally a self-deprecating culture, so I know where I got that from. (During Communist rule when there was almost no food in the stores and people waited in long lines: What's a Polish sandwich? One meat ration card between two bread ration cards.)

My grandpa drank beer and sat on the front stoop, just like in the pictures in the book of Polish jokes. (Natch, he and grandma lived in the poor county nearby.)

Anyway, it was a strange trip but an interesting heritage. I love being part of this big old melting pot.

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:34:07 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Ever been to Chicago??
Message:
It's as Polish as it gets. The Northwest side is almost entirely Polish. Chicago has more Poles than any city except for Warsaw. It's also a great place to get those really spicy pickles.

When the Polish Pope came to Chicago in the late 70s over 2 million people showed up when he celebrated mass in Grant Park. That was in 1979 and I was working in the legal department at DECA at the time. What a joy. I had been living in Chicago for the 3 years previous.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:18:38 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Francesca ~)
Subject: Rootskis
Message:
Hey Fran:

I agree with John that, if you're so inclined, to check out the old roots. Ellis Island records is now online, and I found one set of my grandparents' info there. Pretty interesting stuff. The online records include anyone who passed through Ellis Island between the years 1893-1924.

Hope you're well.
B
[ Ellis Island Records ]

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:14:19 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: Rootskis
Message:
Thanks for that. I bookmarked it and looked around once, called my mom for some info and haven't gotten back since. She put our relatives names on the wall.

Am good, hope you are also!

Love, f

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:57:26 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Francesca ~)
Subject: Thanks, Francesca
Message:
Yes, I must confess I have pretty much caught up on the forum. I've recommended Lesley's post as a 'Best of' to give it some prominence. I fully agree with John's comments about legal action against exes. I myself have asked Elan Vital several times to point out any errors on EPO and they have failed to do so, so they could hardly sue me after refusing my honest request for help with EPO's accuracy, could they?

Hey, Francesca, you should investigate your Polish roots, and while doing it, pop up to Latvia for a visit!

John.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 01:16:11 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Latvia (OT)
Message:
John,

After I read your post, I went and looked at maps of Latvia online. It is rather near Poland! I've never been there, but my mom has. What an adventure that would be!

Bests, f

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:15:01 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Francesca :C)
Subject: One of these days a real Latvian night maybe
Message:
Hey what do you think John, are there any cities close that could accomadate a real Latvian reunion?

I made it to India, England and all over the USA for the Goob, I would really fancy a trip to latvia

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:42:57 (EST)
From: Philly Dogg
Email: None
To: All
Subject: MJ in Philly: you got fooled (again)
Message:
Nobody said anything about EPO in the Q&A. Bwahhh Hwahhh! EPO wishful thinkers get fooled again!
Maybe Mr. L from Seattle (edrek?) is smokin' a better brand of crack these days!!

Program was fun fun fun: no religion no mahatmas no ashram assholes no birkenstocks no yuppies nothing but fun fun fun

You realley missed a great time! Too bad you were all so busy living in the past!

Bye now.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 05:08:37 (EST)
From: don
Email: None
To: Philly Dogg
Subject: how expensive was the fun ??
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 05:17:33 (EST)
From: Philly Cheese Steak
Email: None
To: don
Subject: $85 but where's the beef?
Message:
Lot's of cheese, plenty of pickles but no meat!

PatC

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 05:18:21 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Philly Dogg
Subject: Oh Yeah!
Message:
Nobody said anything about EPO in the Q&A. Bwahhh Hwahhh! EPO wishful thinkers get fooled again!

Assuming that you really were there , Nobody had to make mention or remind M of EPO, he knows fuck well that we are out here, and so do you.

Which begs the question, why will you spend 85 bucks to get in plus expenses to have the 'Load' remind you that you need to meditate and breathe? Yet on the other hand, you and M as well do not need any reminder that EPO exists. You just know that it does and that people are probably out there right now speaking freely of their thoughts about the cult and M.

Funny how that works , I mean knowing something and all, except in the cult where you can know something and not 'really know it' you have to have the master constantly remind you.

He only has one thing left to say as far as I am concerned and it ties right in with this train of thought and that is ...I am sorry that I fooled you and lead you to believe that you had to be subserviant and require a master for the rest of your life.

The meditation techniques that you were shown in the knowledge session are simple tools that you can use to improve your life but it is not necessary to eternally devote yourself to me to benefit from them.

In fact it would be detrimental to your growth in life to even begin to wire yourself up that way as a mushy, groveling, mindless, dependant devotee or worse yet a fanatical and frenzied zealot. So please try and avoid those impulses at all costs, they are not good for you or me.

Meditate if you want, but please do not try to hook me up into your
program for enlightenment, because the truth is, your own self realization is up to you to figure out for yourself.

Now that is what he should have said all along, should be saying now and that is the way it is, no fooling

I doubt that he will ever get off his phony throne and level with us in this lifetime though, For me that would be the one program that would be fun, fun, fun to attend

Brian the wishful thinker

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:24:07 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Brilliant, Brian. Happy Thanksgiving to you! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 14:11:14 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Thanks Pat, Happy Thanksgiving to you
Message:
I Hope that your are relaxing today and letting someone else do the cooking. Me, I've got a houseful and I have been busy baking Whole Wheat & Bran Bread & Rolls, Baking Pies, 2 Apple, 3 Pumpkin, 2 Pecan. Plus a Red Velvet Cake w vanilla frosting all from scratch, I'll have 20 family & friends over for the traditional feast soon.

Have a great day, last Thanksgiving I was still in the cult, this year I am thankful for my freedom, for EPO and F7 and for friends like you and the many others here who have supported my exit

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 14:34:04 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Well, I'm cooking too
Message:
Three course vegan dinner for 40 at the restuarant. Yam and corn chowder. Baked portabella mushroom with almond and kalamata olive stuffing, mashed potatoes and crimini mushroom gravy with a Huguenot ragout and butter bean bredie and cranberry salsa. I made the pumpkin (eggfree) pies yesterday. We're fully-booked as usual for Thanksgiving and I must now go and start working.

I'm sure you'll have lots of fun today.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 20:02:20 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Wow, what a menu, I have got to get down to SF
Message:
My mouth waters everytime I read your restaurant reviews and web site.
Sounds absolutely delicious ...... I will call ahead but I am definately coming soon I'm pretty sure before the end of the year if I can get away.
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:24:54 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I'm closing the first two weeks
Message:
...of December. I wish I had started my vacation tonight. I'm aching from top to tail after last night's dinner. We had another nice review in the afternoon paper today and unfortunately had to turn people away. We were booked up a week ago already.

Of course I'd like you to visit when I'm closed so I can spend time with you but then you won't get to eat Joubert's food. You'd be lucky to get some spaghetti with Ragu Think and Chunky. Well, I guess that's better than Guru Thick and Chunky. :)

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 19:25:34 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Yummmmmy :P
Message:
Happy Thanksgiving to you darling Pat, Chuck, and what's the other guy's name?

Psst, I'll be going to N. California in the late spring.

I'll bring a few foodie friends from Sonoma to the restaurant.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:18:03 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Just let me know when, Deborah
Message:
We'll have a Latvian night for you when you come. Hopefully you'll get to meet Marianne, Roger, Joe, Francesca, Vicki, Chuck and whathisname (Andy.) ;)
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:08:24 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Philly Dogg
Subject: Do all premies like spreading lies?(nt)
Message:
Do all premies like spreading lies?(nt)
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 21:10:17 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Philly Dogg
Subject: Wow
Message:
Two hours with the Maha. Sounds like fun but I'd rather spend a couple of hours with my head in a bucket. But that's just me.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:36:55 (EST)
From: busy bill
Email: None
To: Philly Dogg
Subject: not next tour buddy [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 22:24:58 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: busy bill
Subject: You're up to something ;)
Message:
I don't know what you're so busy doing but I'm dying to find out.

Stay busy bill

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:39:51 (EST)
From: b
Email: None
To: busy bill
Subject: anyone know the number on the jet? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 09:09:01 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: b
Subject: N54PR
Message:
You'll find pictures and more info on www.ex-premie.org
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 02:08:57 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: b
Subject: Re: anyone know the number on the jet?
Message:
I 800 -bail out
1 -800 jump now
1 800 suckers
1 800 momoney
1 900 paymenow
976 guru$$$
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:22:02 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Philly Dogg
Subject: Re: MJ in Philly: you got fooled (again)
Message:
You might think we're living in the past but, in fact, we're your future.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:34:49 (EST)
From: Ohhh Noooo
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Planet of the Monmots ALL Over again!
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:43:59 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Good One, Barbara! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:27:29 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Philly Dogg
Subject: Re: MJ in Philly WHO got fooled (again)
Message:
Sucker!
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:00:16 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Philly Dogg
Subject: Living in the Past?
Message:
Hey knuckle head,

You're the one worshipping a has-been guru, believing in the Perfect Master, who thinks God tastes of snot because somebody told him twenty odd years ago. We've got over it (well almost), and you come here telling us we're living in the past. What past is that then Philly Dog?

So, a question about your wonderful evening with Captain. I imagine the main event was listening to him ramble on for an hour or so.

Can you tell me a single, wise, meaningful, insightful thing he said during that time- other than the usual inane garbage, 'Don't forget to breathe,' 'Concentrate on me me me,' 'Keep poking yourself in the eyes, sticking your thumbs in your ears, etc'.

How much did you cough up before you went in? You know, the 'Voluntary donation?'

Anth, if I had been there I would have heckled and got thrown out. Looks like I saved myself...how much was it Philly Dog...$75.00

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:50:15 (EST)
From: Philly Mole
Email: None
To: Philly Dogg
Subject: Re: MJ in Philly: you got fooled (again)
Message:
My first post did not say the questioner mentioned EPO specifically. He said 'there's this website'. My friend who forwarded the story, assumed he meant EPO. A logical deduction.

If you were there, please illuminate us.

Did someone ask M if he meditated?

If so, what was M's resonse?

Thank you for correcting any horrid, mean-spirited and hatefully false info I may have unknowingly posted.

Philly Mole, digging for the truth

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:56:15 (EST)
From: A fly on the wall
Email: None
To: Philly Mole
Subject: Dont worry PhillyDog probably isn't in Philly
Message:
... and probably didn't attend the program. It's probably just a troll from cyberspace -- perhaps one of our friends in OZ with ESP.

ROLF.

Consider whether your source or this DogTroll is more reliable.

ROLF again.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:14:35 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What do 'Trainings' have to do with K????????????
Message:
Jim raised this question down below, and the same thing has occurred to me. Why is/was Maharaji doing those 'trainings?' They seem completely contradictory to how he sells knowledge as being this simple, complete experience that changes the course of your life.

Clearly, the trainings are incredibly abusive, as described by John, Michael and Lesley. I think some premies may even be critical of the 'training methodology' but repress the obvious reflection on the kind of person Maharaji is that the trainings show.

I think John MacGregor after a lot of painful analysis to get past the 'everything M does is altruistic' filter, saw that the very concentrated, intense, situation revealed Maharaji's megalomania, insane demands for loyalty and submission, and rank dishonestly (as well as willingness to manipulate to get his way). There isn't anything inherently wrong with a 'training' situation (although I wouldn't personally choose to be in one).

But aside from the obvious proof of what Maharaji is about, and how the cult is still just about 'Maharaji' (which deceptively isn't disclosed to aspirants or the public), there is an additional question: what do those 'trainings' have to do with knowledge?

When I was involved I doubt M would have resorted to 'trainings' at all, and was critical when the premies started doing "workshops" and discussion groups in the Renaissance of 1976.

Why? According to Maharaji, 'Knowledge' is supposed to be just about having an 'experience' and taking that in whatever direction naturally occurs. The very idea that you have to mess with peoples' psychology and foster 'teamwork,' would have been absurd.

That Maharaji has resorted to that kind of thing, to me indicates he feels he needs a stronger form of indoctrination, maybe, like John said, because there are no longer ashrams and no longer IDP programs, which sort of served that function in the past.

So, how do current premies/Pwks rationalize this? How does Maharaji 'sell' these things?

The Maharaji cult does operate largely on the cult of M's personality, and being able to be around him, and this is enhanced by the exclusive nature of those things, and people feel special if they are 'invited' to a 'training.' I would imagine most PWKs don't teally care about the 'training' as much as being able to be around the Lotus Feet.

So, I would imagine most pwks could care less about the training format and just want to attend to get attention from M, no matter how awful and abusive it might be. But I think Maharaji and people like Valerio Pascotto have very different agendas.

Also, what was that again about Valerio Pascotto bursting into tears when speaking to the 'mutineers' at Amaroo? Bizarre.

Any comments?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 05:26:59 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Training is Nothing about K, 100% about control [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 05:06:37 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My view on Rawat's business
Message:
I've also been involved at various levels of DLM/EV management since the mid 70s. Though it was not at the highest levels, I've been a part of many many organizors, instructors etc meetings/conferences with M.

The obvious thing is that - as John Macgregor underlined it - M is the kind of leader who wants to control anything and everything. And the situation being what it is/was, M has always been very much displeased (he used to express it during these conferences) by EV-DLM's management – and its results in terms of ‘propogation’ finances etc. Of course Rawat is a wierd and abusive manager, and premies - specially those trying to climb the hierarchy to the top levels - also have the kind of personality who accept such treatments.

I've watched him several time expressing his frustration on how things were run, and his anger at various situations.

I guess he decided to adopt that type of management techniques to improve the situation, and then he tried to apply it to a wider audience.

I guess that historically he himself and his close staff had workshops on various occasions long time ago. Then I guess he figured out he could himself lead these workshops – it’s been the trend in many corporations last decade, with the help of people like Valerio, and a couple of other close associates – and that having that type of trainings was the solution for his problems. The rest we now know …..

You say that it doesn’t have anything to do with ‘knowledge’. The problem is IMO: what is K ?

It’s clear that Rawat sees this in terms of management. There is a product for him: premies’ devotion and cash flow. I guess the ‘inner experience’, if there is any, is the result of this product: for him obviously: he enjoys being worshipped, and for the premies, they’re supposed to en,joy the experience of devotion to him and service to him. This is very wierd, but I guess this is his view of what K is for him IMO. Then why not try to manage it like any other business (or ‘His’ view/perception of what a business is) ? Rawat’s work is about being worshipped, and getting the cash generated by devotion.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 18:03:08 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: AMEN Jean-Marie
Message:
Damn, I'm glad you've spelled out the point. MAHA is running a business of devotion and money for personal gain.

It's completely senseless to be discussing the facts about Maha seperating the people who are eager to be next to him and those who are truly devotional.

To coherce fellow humans to be devotional to one's self IS abuse, premies.

It's ludicrous trying to justify the abusiveness when the fact that Maha desires your devotion and money is original crime. It just takes the mind-fuck process and twists it into tighter little knots. I can't believe some of the justification I am reading on this forum.

Before this post came out, premies were denying they had devotion, they were just appreciating the geezer for reminding them that human beings have breath.

Now, that John McG's post came out, they are jumping on the devotional train to justify WHY Maha would have be so cruel to fellow human beings. It's back to the fault of premies not being devotional enough.

Aaagghhh, somebody help these people see the real light. Stop squeezing your eyeballs and see the world for its beauty. And see Maha for who he really is, and is NOT.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 23:58:24 (EST)
From: Uh Oh
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I think you mean Jean-Michel [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 13:30:06 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Agreed, but...
Message:
I think you are right J-M; Maharaji's problem as I see it is although it really is just a business for him (getting money and worship in exchange for the 'product' of allowing his devotees to worship and finance him), to do that he has to at least keep the facade that the is 'loving,' has the best interests of his devotees at heart, and is someone 'worthy' of being worshipped.

It appears that at least for some people, the 'trainings' broke that facade down, either because they were in them and freaked out, or they are hearing about M's behavior in them from people who were in them and for whom that 'facade' was broken.

Alas, I think there may always be people who don't care what Maharaji is really like as a person, and actually still believe that being abused by him is ultimately a good thing. Those people are SO programmed they may never, ever leave. They may also be the ones who do outrageous things to try to 'serve' M or show their devotion to him, like CAC.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:00:56 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Schizophrenic
Message:
I agree with you,
but
this is also something lots of premies (specially those who've been involved a lot) are programmed to accept since they're not supposed to 'give satsang' any second sentence - it's well accepted in the cult now – I’d say since the late 80s, after M had some intense meetings with almost everybody about it: you can have - even with M - meetings about 'business' (organizing EV's activities, learning about His Wishes and comments etc), and these meetings don't have to be filled with love. Premies have learned not to be frustrated not to see their loving dad. They’ve learned how to wait for the next blissful program – sometimes for years.

Of course, you've then to be ready for abuse - more or less, depending on the situation, which has always been there IMO for decades, with M, with his messengers, with many organizers.

My point is this: up to what point can you accept abuse ?

I take for granted that (for most premies) there is an unconscious limit somehow ('drip' story). Mine was reached in 1996. I wouldn't say I enjoyed the abuse before, I got to rationalize it - I had to - somehow, up to a certain point.

I assume VERY FEW premies would accept it without a limit. And I'm glad that kind of treatment (the trainings) brought many of them to the fence.

M’s business is not very successful anymore, and that’s pushed him beyond decency. I guess he’s the kind of person who will never admit failure, and he might do even more crazy attempts to improve the situation. That’s the scary part, because he’s out of touch with humanity.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:06:15 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: What do 'Trainings' have to do with K??
Message:
Easy.....the US premies have been remiss in their duty of propogation and these trainings were supposed to help us learn how to do propogation. Or so I was told.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:18:55 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Did it work??
Message:
Seems it would have the opposite effect -- scare the shit out of anyone to the point where they wouldn't dare tell anyone else about Maharaji.

Plus, why does one need 'training' to talk to other people about this supposed simple 'experience' they are having?

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 10:44:30 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Did it work??
Message:
Because the US 'is sleeping' and obviously since aspirants have been at an all time low compared to India and South Africa, it is an embarressment. People felt they weren't able to tell others properly. I think it was during an Atlanta event M said something along the lines of him teaching us how to correctly introduce someone to k.

Some people have gotten an even bigger ego once they've gone, as if they are more special and/or smarter. Others were very subdued.

There's this implied competition with propogation. The other country's stats were always being brought up. And of course M's personal favorite about the US pwk with the highest succes rate because he did his homework; previewing the videos, pamphlets, audios, etc and giving the person the best possible match. It was like the rest of us were so dumb to think we could talk about the feeling from our heart. Big no no.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:36:42 (EST)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: What do 'Trainings' have to do with K?
Message:
When I was invited to apply to attend the Delhi training in 1999 (I think) I was sent an application form to fill in. At the time one particular question struck me which asked: 'What do you hope to get out of the training?' (or words to that effect).

This was a very interesting question in as much as, as has been well documented here, the aims, objectives, format and content of the training remained completely hidden - people who had been on previous trainings were sworn to complete secrecy, and there was no indication at all of what the training was about in any of the documentation. To be invited was assumed to be enough reason to want to go. In fact, all that was mentioned was the venue and the dates - oh, and the cost, of course, which was huge. One of the reasons I started to drift from my involvement with the cult was my increasing awareness that 'knowledge' was becoming the realm of the rich and well-healed, and this was not what I signed up for in 1971. The other thing that was mentioned was that there was no guarantee that m would actually attend the training. As I said before, fortunately I sensed that this training was something I didn't want to be part of, even tho', like most other pwks I strongly sought opportunities to spend time with m in a more intimate environment than the huge stadia where I would normally see him. So I scrapped my half completed form.

Anyway, from my experience the question on the form simply mirrors the whole process over which m is presiding: an agenda which is hidden, movable and completely in the hands of one man, and to which one is expected to blindly aspire - but with no chance of success. This is the crude, but surprisingly successful ploy to lock pwks in to the path of devotion. So, whatever you wrote in answer to that question on the form was irrelevant - your hopes, fears and aspirations were not to be addressed. The satisfaction of one man's need for blind devotion is all that is being served.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:30:15 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Gopi or Groupie??
Message:
One of the reasons I started to drift from my involvement with the cult was my increasing awareness that 'knowledge' was becoming the realm of the rich and well-heeled, and this was not what I signed up for in 1971

It is more than interesting to note that margie's ticket prices have kept pace with his core middle-aged die-hard audience's general affluence - squeezing his old-time flock for the top scratch just like aging rock-stars do. But like some bloated and wobbly sixties icon trying to capture the ol' magic, the captain is just going thru the motions and playing to an ever dwindling bunch of fanatics belching out sentimental requests like 'Can't Get No Darshan' or 'All Around the Watch Collection' 'Leela' 'Got Love if You Buy It' and a slow Bhakti Blues or two.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 22:44:00 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: How about ...
Message:
Tell me RAWAT, Tell Tell me RAWAT
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:30:17 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Question to John/Michael/Lesley
Message:
I wondered about the composition of the people who were at that training. I think you said about 80-85 people were there. My question is, would you say that the majority of those people received knowledge in the 70s and had been around for a long time? Were there any people in the training who had received knowledge in just the past few years?

I have a strong hunch that the group largely consisted of people from Maharaji's 'Lord of the Universe' period, and were particularly indoctrinated to believe M was 'divine' and hence more likely to see whatever he did as either 'lila' or some kind of ordeal that he devised as some kind of perfect plan for the ultimate spiritual benefit of the premie.

I partly say this because I have heard premies rationalize it in that way; deflecting from M's behavior and talking about the things they "needed to learn" from it all.

What do you think?

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:14:21 (EST)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Question to John/Michael/Lesley
Message:
Joe,

There were 80 people in the training, plus half a dozen facilitators or so. I would say most of the premies received K in the 70s or 80s, and many of them were staunch longtimers who'd been involved in core service much more regularly than me.

Joe, I would think your comment about 'lila' is appropriate, though it would be hard for me to judge the levels of cynicism or pragmatism - often the fallout of being involved in political power games of any kind - of some of the longtimers. I mean, 'Frend' in a post below talks about making omelettes when the broken eggs are in fact people's lives. My rationalisation for 28 years was that contradictory or confusing behaviour has an acceptable basis if it comes from the 'superior power in person', because obviously he knows what's really going on, right? Except for that reason, why would I (or anyone) put up with bullshit?

One of the exercises was, 'How are you going to change the attitude of the 79 arseholes in this room?' My conclusion was 'See them as part of the team, assess their proposals and objections on their merits, and respond appropriately in light of their value to the team goal', hardly rocket science but good Maospeak, and in the end the team goal was not a smoother running organisation or commonsense results but utter obedience to Mr Rawat.

Mr Rawat was particularly scathing of the 'happy family syndrome', where a family pretends to be together but really is constantly bitching about each other; it follows on from his earlier concern of not wanting DLM to be a 'Mickey Mouse Club'. I can see the value in that but it is also a tactical error if you set people thinking seriously about the nature of the organisation and hence Mr Rawat. Looking back on it as objectively as possible, I think the whole training thing was a grave tactical error for Mr Rawat because it introduced people, although awfully committed, to an R-rated (thanks, Pat) environment where it could not be guaranteed they would take a shine to all the facets of his personality, not just the loving satsang giver but the 'two sides of the coin', as he put it. On the other hand, he is ending up with the people who are totally committed to him no matter what, which is what he wanted.

Unlike several people on this forum, I do not regard Mr Rawat as stupid. I think he is very sharp, very quick-witted and good on logical thinking. The stuff of his satsangs is not the stuff of his corporate and captain mode. The man flies planes and helicopters, which are not the province of goofballs. In the end for me, after reflection on the training and other matters, the bad in Mr Rawat outweighed the good, especially as I could no longer believe his anger was part of a divine 'lila'.

Not all of the training tasks ended in failure, as John seems to recall. One which required us to cross on mats an imaginary river of acid (please don't laugh) ended in success, with Mr Rawat helping out several times. That carrot-and stick dichotomy. Most of the tasks lacked imaginative depth and were on a par with the IQ tests of high school days which only prove you're good at IQ tests. The greatest use of imagination came from individual participants trying to solve the problems.

As to Jim's question, 'What do the trainings have to do with Knowledge?', you might as well ask, what does selling knick-knacks in the sales tent have to do with Knowledge? Nothing, really. The connection you could make is that to serve Mr Rawat well in a team you need to have 'clarity'; in order to have clarity, you need to practise Knowledge. One man's clarity is another man's poison.

Cheers,

Michael

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:01:57 (EST)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Great post, Michael, been enjoying your comments [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 19:28:34 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Michael McD, I sure hope that...
Message:
....you find more time to post because I just love your down-to-earth matter-of-fact attitude and clear writing. Great stuff. Many thanks.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:48:38 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: The Long-timers
Message:
That certainly makes sense, Michael. I would think that it would be the old-timers, the most immersed in the 'lila' and 'perfect master' era that would be the most susceptible to accept abuse in those trainings (and anywhere else in M's world) and see it as something they deserved and should accept because they are too limited to understand something only M does.

The 'lila' rationalization was used so many times, but I know for me, by 1983 I could no longer accept it, even if it was true. I saw so many premies being hurt in Maharaji's 'world' that I had to leave it, even if it meant going to hell. Of course, once out of it, I deprogrammed very quickly, just by questioning the bases for the concepts I had.

It does seem the trainings were a mistake because it gave exposure to people who got to Maharaji the person, doing his control-thing, and not just up on a stage.

Thi is something the vast majority of premies had never seen. This "distance" that Maharaji always kept, had allowed all of us to fantasize about the altruistic and loving nature of Maharaji. What did he say about 'two sides of the coin?' What was that referring to?

I think he didn't bank on the possibility that some people would leave the trainings with a negative view of him, and hence the whole cult trip would fall apart for them, and, worse, that they would talk about it to others, even on the Internet, to people who were trying to hold on to their fantasy views of their master, and how 'loving' he is.

I don't think M is stupid either, but I do think he is stupid about some things, maybe partly to do with the strange way he has lived his life. I think he doesn't have a very good idea about how he comes accross to most people, doesn't have a clue about how most normal people live and hence can't relate to them, and unlike others, I think he is an absolutely lousy speaker, which you would think he would be good at doing, since he has done it so often for so many years. I have listened to him since I left, and am amazed at how incoherent he really is.

Also, I think the pilot stuff, while I'm sure does take intelligence and drive, has to be taken with a grain of salt as well. Maharaji had private, full-time instructors (paid for by all of us, of course), and also had money to have access to aircraft and all the best instruction that most others would never have. He also had virtually unlimited time, seeing as he set his own schedule, and did what he wanted when he wanted. So that has to be taken into account. He had advantages such that it was unlikely there was any possibility he could fail.

I also saw when it came to DECA (the Boeing 707 project) that Maharaji didn't have a clue about the limitations of people, money and time. He was so arrogant that he really believed he could have what he wanted, when he wanted it, and got very upset when he didn't get it. The waste of time, talent and money was incredible.

Also, I'm not sure how much input M has into Elan Vital, but they have been just awful at PR, and even at reacting to EPO. It's almost like they were INTENDING to look ridiculous. I think M's website reflects that as well. So, he isn't very good at that kind of thing and I'm not sure if that reflects on intelligence or just an inability to see how he is coming across.

Plus, given the resources he has had, and the almost unlimited power at least among a certain group of people, you would think he would have gotten a lot farther than he did. In that light, he has actually been a dismal failure, in terms of "spreading knowledge" at least in the West.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 03:06:02 (EST)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Right on, Joe
Message:
Just to say Rawat is 'dumb' is too general of a statement. He's smart about some things, but, in sum, not very smart at all. You've laid it out in a coherent fashion. He's so taken up with himself that he just doesn't get it.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:33:36 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Question for MacGregor
Message:
John,

a while ago you said you knew something about Jagdeo. Can you tell me just what it is that you know... please. I gather you are saving this up for later but I would really apprecaite it if you could come out with what you know right now. Quite a few people mention they 'know' something behind the scenes about Jagdeo and never really come clean. CW is a prime example.

What's your story?

Abi who has a slight trust issue due to prolonged contact with cult infected types

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 19:08:41 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: paranoia
Message:
If you read this John, I just want to say sorry. My nerves are shot to pieces when it comes to the whole Jagdeo issue.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:37:11 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: John is slow at responding
Message:
Abi,

John is slow at responding to emails and has admitted he doesn't read here regularly because of its addictive nature, but he does respond eventually. Be patient and I'm sure he'll expand on his knowledge of Jagdeo.

John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:45:58 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Did CW ever phone you
Message:
Did he have a good reason for not wanting to explain himself here?

Anything you'd like to share about that conversation?

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:13:40 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: of course not
Message:
Didn't mail either. But then what would you expect. All talk no action seems to be the MO with people who know things about Jagdeo.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:30:30 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@lapsang_souchong.tea
To: Abi
Subject: over a cuppa...
Message:
such - who also has a slight trust issue due to prolonged contact with cult infected types. in such circumstances, i endorse trusting in one's own intelligence and intuition, in conjunction with doing what is constructive for one's own peace of mind, happiness, and well-being, which may necessarily entail setting some personal boundaries/spaces affecting interpersonal relations/communications.

more biscuits, Abi? I hope the tea is hot enough.

ok, back to CW; he intimated he knew the whereabouts...

given the situation, it would be right and proper for J McG to tell you whatever he knows r.e. jagpedo information.

Peace and lentils,

PS Hope you are feeling better lately.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:21:40 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: such
Subject: true
Message:
maybe I should just stop expecting John MacGregor to reply. Very dissapointing that he doesn't and can't quite understand why. Just feels like more strangeness, more games, more stress.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 19:56:09 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: cult co-codependency cycles... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:06:58 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@fried_at_last.ca
To: such
Subject: cult bacteria spore petrie dish
Message:
aka: spinoff fractals of cult bacteria manifesting as recurring spores in the conscious metamorphosis of one's life.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:15:28 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: such
Subject: a bit like that
Message:
that was profound bananman. I think my brain blows a fuse everytime I deal with anything related to Jagdeo. Hopefully this will pass and I'll be able to put all the pieces together one day soon.

peace and lentils to you

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 01:01:29 (EST)
From: salam})
Email: None
To: All
Subject: bloody knuckle heads at AG
Message:
I asked a question and it turned into WWIII. So I decided to come here. Weell, am making the following page on my site

Jagdeo

and am looking for ideas as to what to include. I tried reading the epo pages, but like I said there, jmk way of presenting things allways lead me astry. I end up on the otherside of the galaxy [sorry jmk].

I don't what to include much as most of the stuff is on EPO but I do want to include enough material for someone who has not had any exposure to the issue to get the hang of it. Am be nice, am feeling sensetive tonight [that was yesterday, today it morning, though am still feeling crabby})]. I will value your ideas, so give me a suggestion,

thanks

Salam

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:04:12 (EST)
From: such
Email: sr_partner@Squire,Sanders,Dempsey.com
To: salam})
Subject: summarize da facts;Abi quotes;EV
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:26:35 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Re: summarize da facts;Abi quotes;EV
Message:
fucking amazing. You get 50 people reading a post and all I get is a shitty little post with a [NT] reply. Am so inspired, am bursting.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 20:18:39 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@chiquita.cr
To: salam
Subject: Re: summarize da facts;Abi quotes;EV
Message:
Salam

hehehe take yer prozac, fer cryin out lard! LOL

ok: post means create a webpage which lists the important facts of the jagdeo matter, citing fundamental/critical points, quote some of Abi's stirring points, the EV site stonewall/apologist regurgitations, and maybe an updated wrapup at the end. film at 11...

dungis,

da lil swami

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 19:12:08 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: summarize da facts;Abi quotes;EV
Message:
The best thing to do is construct a time-line, a clear chronology of the whole saga.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 23:57:16 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Tell me more
Message:
I can make an image map of it. How far back in time I need to go? I Don't even know when the issue was first raised, and by whom?

I don't feel very comfortable as I think this is a very delecate issue seeing how traumatic it's been for you and Susan, so am a bit tizwozy [if you know what I mean]. So tell me more.

And sucha, I am a bit of a short fuse, wouldn't you say? sheesh. Also I don't take prozac, but them I don't want cacas know what I take.

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Date: Thurs, Nov 22, 2001 at 04:28:58 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: Tell me more
Message:
When was the issue first raised and by whom? Well, I suppose that depends on what you mean by raised and in what context. I tried to tell my mother after the incident at Wringford Manor, Susan reported it to Randy P and Judy O in America, there are reports from people around Denver in the seventies that Jagdeo had a body guard and that he was doing freaky childrens satsangs much like the sessions he had with us, then there are reports that his touring was restricted. Much later the issue came up on epo via Anth, me and Susan. Sorry, but this is exhausting. There is also the report which EV did on Jagdeo etc and the conflicting accounts they have given of how he left the Indian ashram. The whole thing is a nest of EV lies. Why not e-mail Anth or look at the archives. Can't really revist it at the moment.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:59:51 (EST)
From: New John Macgregor post
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Not to be missed
Message:
Moved from a thread below.--

Hi again,

In the unlikely event that this drivel has any truth to it, it's good to remember that ex-premies have an awful lot of weapons in their armory.

Firstly, there is the fact that any threatened case against EPO is unlikely to proceed, for the simple reason that EV does not want the publicity it would generate. (Here in Australia for a start, I write for several of the papers, and my EV friends know this.) Apart from anything, the stuff written in EPO can largely be proven to be true. Would Maharaji and his team really want this to be widely known via the mainstream media - as it undoubtedly would in the course of litigation or prosecution directed at multiple defendants?

Secondly, I raised the possibility of a lawsuit like the one now threatened with a senior 'connection' last week. S/he said, 'EV is in no position to sue anyone at the moment.' It must be remembered that because of EPO and other factors - but probably EPO more than anything - EV worldwide is in retreat. An Australian premie has recently toured the world on M's behalf (the 'winds of change' tour) spinning the downturn as 'consolidation', 'time for less of the organisation and more of the heart', etc. Translation: they're experiencing serious problems with money. Because so many major donors are withdrawing their Amaroo loans simultaneously (post-Sept 11), there is even talk of selling the property.

Thirdly, the counter-measures open to ex-premies are extensive. Aside from in the area of publicity, there is always the option of a class action. Whilst it may be difficult in North America, it appears this is viable in Australia. At least two ex-premies have, to my knowledge, sued EV or threatened it with press exposure, and received substantial payouts. These things can be and have been done. Certainly there are the legal brains here in Australia to carry out a class action if it came to that.

Generally I don't believe in such nastiness, but if I were attacked legally, I would hardly feel defenceless.

Finally, re the below post: Maharaji being forced to directly, publicly and specifically address information on EPO is an extremely important symbolic moment, IMO. For decades, Maharaji's only defence against criticism has been his wall of silence. This has now been punctured for the first time.

• Someone emailed me, asking for more information about the Amaroo Mutiny. Also, there's a story doing the rounds here in Byron that I'm angry that Maharaji refused to replace the Amaroo manager with myself at that time. Or simply that I lost a power struggle, and that my posts here are all sour grapes. (There are a few versions of this story.)

So maybe I'll cover both these things at once:

The Mutiny wasn't even a mutiny, technically. Several of us disagreed with management approaches, and resigned. Personally I was packing to leave the state - but was asked to stay for the Valerio facilitation process. I met privately with the Pacific Contact to discuss new models for Amaroo's management. She was very much in favour of changing things too. A number of (ex) management team people met in various combinations to do the same.

In due course, Valerio arrived, called a meeting, and burst into tears onstage before he could get any words out. I knew then there were not going to be any 'new management models'. When he was able to talk, Valerio told us M 'regarded this as a mutiny' and had said 'How dare they?'. That kind of set the tone for the rest of the week.

In the subsequent days there were lots of team exercises, lots of confession, lots of crying. People confessed to just about everything, even things they hadn't done. My favourite moment was when the guy next to me said the whole thing reminded him of 'a medieval penitence session', refused to have anything to do with it, dropped his papers on the floor in front of him, and folded his arms. I've had a soft spot for him ever since.

You know the rest: on the last day, we all promised to behave, the importance of obeying M was drummed in, then some time down the track the trainings started - to make sure we did, I guess.

Anyway, the aim of the so-called mutineers was to replace the person managing Amaroo with a team of about ten people, all of equal rank. And to open up the flow of information - get rid of the secrecy we felt was stifling the place - and also involve the community in decision-making: i.e. flatten the pyramid right out. There was never any intention to replace the existing Amaroo manager with another individual - let alone me. Of all the many models we discussed, this one was never raised by anyone. The whole idea was to disseminate power, not simply transfer it to someone else.

When the Amaroo manager arrived back from the US in the middle of the Mutiny, I went round to see her for a cup of tea, and asked her to resign, and make way for a team. She politey refused. We proceeded to an amiable conversation about general matters, in the sunshine on her back porch.

Once the mutiny was resolved I very deliberately made my peace with her, told her she had my full support - which she did - and rejoined the management team. (Tho my money soon ran out, and I had to leave Amaroo.)

A year later I re-iterated my support to her in the training. Our relationship was fine then, and the last time I saw her (when she dropped in here for a cuppa a year or two ago) it was still fine. Tho we have radically different styles, I've always liked her and still do.

It was, and still is, my opinion that any individual who takes on the management of Amaroo should be followed around by a team of psychiatrists. I suspect the then manager (she's since resigned) might agree. And anyone who harbours suspicions about the real motivations behind the Mutiny should simply ask her about it.

John

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:35:01 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: New John Macgregor post
Subject: Re: Not to be missed
Message:
Dear John,

Can you please e-mail me. Thanks

Abi

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:43:30 (EST)
From: John -- actually this post is by ****
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: Not to be missed
Message:
Why? (this the troll, ****. -gerry)
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:18:21 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Re: Not to be missed
Message:
John,

you already know why because I have sent you two emails in the last two weeks telling you why. They didn't bounce back so I assume that you got them. I used the e-mail address you provided here. You are John MacGregor right?

Abi

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:09:54 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: New John Macgregor post
Subject: Thanks John and a Question
Message:
John, thanks again. I do believe that post about some kind of action against ex-premies was just a joke, and not a very good one at that.

We have talked a lot here about class action lawsuits, although mainly we have talked about those who were sexually molested by Jagdeo bringing claims against EV and Maharaji for failing to protect them from abuse about which they were aware. Yes, class actions are difficult in the USA, because it would be difficult to form a proper 'class' due to the fact that everyone is in a somewhat different situation. And what kind of damages would we be seeking?

On the other hand, I don't think any of us has feared legal claims by either Maharaji or Elan Vital for the very reasons you mention, namely that 'truth' is the major defense against defamation and most of us have been careful to say just what we know, or what we have been told. Again, neither Maharaji nor Elan Vital, nor any premie for that matter, seems to be able to dispute anything on the EPO website.

Also, some of us are not without resources ourselves, and some of us are associated with some of the best law firms in the USA and wouldn't have trouble getting the very best legal representation, were EV and Maharaji to do anything like that. Frankly, the idea of getting Maharaji to testify under oath is a spectacle I would not want to miss.

But I did wonder about the following which you said:

At least two ex-premies have, to my knowledge, sued EV or threatened it with press exposure, and received substantial payouts. These things can be and have been done. Certainly there are the legal brains here in Australia to carry out a class action if it came to that.

What did these people sue EV about? What damages were they claiming? Were they employment related, to get back donations, or what?

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:22:03 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: is the 'John' here MacGregor?
Message:
Joe,

I'm also interested in his claims here. His reply to you is odd. Is this the real MacGregor? Something is wrong.

Abi

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:23:47 (EST)
From: Troll Alert
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: John MacGregor uses a Mac [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:04:02 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Troll Alert
Subject: Was there a troll attack? Gerry?
Message:
I went to bed earlier last night so I missed it. Same guy from India?
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:08:06 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: It was ****
Message:
He was spraying various threads and I cleaned up this morning. You know, the usual one liners that make little sense. He seemed a little upset this morning, though. Kinda nasty. A couple of 'fuck you's,' one directed at lesley so I guess she hit a nerve in the poor autistic fella's heart.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:15:25 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: He must have gotten a new IP#
Message:
and got around the block. We could try blocking it again. It'll frustrate it for a few days at least till it finds a new internet cafe or a post office with a public computer which is common in India. I'm glad you were awake.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:36:54 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Troll Alert
Subject: will the real one come forward please
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:16:10 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi, this thread was a repost
Message:
From John MacGregor's post in a thread below. Someone re-posted it as a new thread.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:25:10 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I know that
Message:
just trying to communicate with the real one but I suppose I should let go of that.
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:24:40 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Trainings, another Subjective View
Message:
The training John attended was the last time I went to do service at Amaroo. And I had a real purpose, I had something to prove to myself. I needed to prove to myself that I could do service without it freaking me out, that in the midst of all the craziness I could perform my service duties creditably and still function as a normal grounded decent human being, I was successful, though sorely tested:
First of all, I insisted on not paying full fare, I was going to be working hard as a member of the catering team, and I did not want to feel like a complete sap, so I paid $10 a day for my board. I shared a tent with a lovely woman and we shared the fun and helped eachother through the rough spots. I kept in touch with home, even had the guts to leave after Dayas and before the training to spend a few days at home; by the time I got back, Prempal was expected at any moment, and the place was bedlam, like the spin cycle of a washing machine on acid.
We, in the catering team, had had such a peaceful and fulfilling time doing service; exhilarating internecine warfare an unavoidable pastime as the results of the extraordinary level of disinterest in considering people’s feelings and needs inexorably came home to roost; the delightful game Prempal played of not saying when he was coming, or what he wanted. Having an old hand at the game as our fearless leader, we suffered much less than we might have. Decisions were made and the ‘training’ at Dayas proceeded. We set it up, we decorated the Lord’s table, the bookings fell through the floor, if not the bills, the Lord didn’t come.
I have to wonder if Prempal didn’t arrive with a bad attitude, perhaps he was already feeling a tad peeved and grumpy, totally speculation of course. But, even from the distant vantage point of waitress to the trainees, it was evident that it wasn’t much fun. The first evening in the dining hall was good, lots of pleasure in meeting up again, and though the anticipation had a nervy edge, of course everyone felt glad that they were there. Well, not everyone, as with every invitation only event, there were distraught people to be found sobbing in the corners of amaroo, but that is another’s story, it is not mine, I was brave and determined, but I was not foolhardy; the last time I had sat and listened to Maharaji, inside myself, I had said to him that I could no longer keep coming towards him, it was now a question of survival, and I had to stand on my own feet.
And as the training continued, I was mighty glad to be on my own feet, and not crawling into the hall for more punishment. Serving Sampuranand his soup was punishing enough.
In retrospect, it was like watching a silent detonation happen behind a silver screen. All I saw, during the breaks, were individuals, either alone or supported by another, drifting off from the hall like grey wraiths, bent over and disappearing; I watched this happen every time I was there. The main body of the group would make it over for refreshments, the word that comes to mind to describe the mood is sullen. It was the industrial strength conversationalists who kept the ball rolling. The level of numb depression rose at lunchtimes, numbers of faces bent over their plates, hunched shoulders; with things easing off at dinner, served in the dining hall back at camp; breakfasts became increasingly brittle.
We were having the usual fun in our team, a good old war of good versus evil, staying human versus hysterical goosestepping; something I believe Mr Rawat refers to as a mutiny. And as a treat for being so good, we were all herded into the back like a pack of indian schoolkids, to await the awesome treat of Maharaji joining us for the last evening. A bit of a party was prepared, a massive castle of a cake, all our hard work was to pay off when the lord of the universe, smiling benignly, would come by to pat us on the head.
I walked into the dining tent, ‘what’s wrong’, I wondered, the customary high spirits of the last day of term were missing, many heads were sunk in gloom, there was an undercurrent of cornered rattiness.
By the time that cake was wheeled out, it was more like a palace of malice than a castle of joy; it had become evident that Maharaji was not going to grace us with his presence, he was not pleased with the trainees, and had retired. Regrettably a lot of withering glances were aimed at the hapless heads of the diners, some of whom were beginning to revive and chat more happily.
I will confess, I had assumed that by the time the training was finished the deconstruction would be over, and reconstructed, they would be happily blissed out. Ah fuck, like any sensible person, I went on a singleminded search for a glass of wine, I figured I’d earnt it, and I figured one of those somnolent bastards who I was friends with, and had waited on, would oblige.
Unfortunately my friends were in the shell shocked category, but, bounding across the field, defying security, and best of all, waving a bottle of wine…… Look, I actually do have memories of having great fun, I also have a memory of having to find a tree to shelter beneath until I could stop crying, and the determination it took to get a grip and get perspective. I remember the warmth, friendliness and humour around the staff campfire, and I remember the ashen faces around the Knowledge Hall.
I remember a lot of the people and the times up at Dayas with warmth and affection, and I also remember the night I spent after the debriefing session, as the finger of blame mirrored through the dark hours. That’s what I had to do to prove to myself that I had done everything Maharaji had asked of me, and then I was free to ask: has he delivered?
It’s a no brainer really: No, he hasn’t.
Some observations and speculations:
I applaud John’s eye for a good joke; the idea of Mr Rawat boasting about how hard he works at keeping his body in shape IS hysterically funny, but on the unfunny side of the tale; that is a tawdry trick to draw the audience’s focus onto his person. This needs a little explanation: I am pointing this out because the most obvious employment of this technique is the darshan line where you kiss his feet, but it nonetheless goes on every time he gets on stage. When you just sit back and watch him ‘playing with the hearts of his premies’, you can see what an elephantine flirt he is.
What a mean trick to play on the trainees, set them up to take the blame for a no show, when all he probably wanted to do was get back to his campfire asap.
The way to recover from a traumatic experience is to be able to talk about it with your people, but on returning to their homes this was denied to those whose family and friends were not training ‘x rated’. In posting, John has done something to remedy that.
And a footnote on the mutiny:
As the extra shifts took their toll, my legs began to ache. I complained about feeling tired, and then I insisted upon my right to complain, I got a bit of head wind for that, but the morning after the training was over, as we sat having breakfast, and were asked to jump to and serve breakfast for the trainees, who had apparently requested an extra day of being catered to separately, I refused. The head wind abated as the sense of being honest about how you were feeling could no longer be denied, comrade Lesley got the nod. I said none of us were willing to serve breakfast, and suggested that rather than freaking out about it, to just accept it. And so the better quality food that had been prepared for the trainees was brought out to the main tent, and we all had breakfast together; a pleasant addition to the tucker for the staff, and the start of reintegration into the human race for the survivors of Mr Rawat’s training.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:49:17 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: *** J-M, Best of ***
Message:
Having given John's Trainings post prominence on EPO, I feel a little guilty about not doing the same with Lesley's perspective, but I think highlighting in the Best of Forum section is sufficient.

John.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:49:48 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Thanks Lesley.
Message:
That's a really good, informative read.

Thanks,

Anth, here comes the Freedom Train.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:52:01 (EST)
From: Moll of Mole
Email: mollofmole@loveable.com
To: ****
Subject: Re: Lesley,
Message:
Fuck you.


---

hummmmmmm is that the whiff of self righteousness premie arrogance I can smell (not you Lesley)

MoM

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:16:08 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Moll of Mole
Subject: You're right ...
Message:
Hey you asked Leslie,

hummmmmmm is that the whiff of self righteousness premie arrogance I can smell (not you Lesley)

MoM

... it's not Lesley. Trust your intuition.

It's your own stinking thinking and the residue of Maha's breath from from his last pathetic discourse, of course.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 04:23:34 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Waiting for God
Message:
Gosh, Lesley, your story of doing service out there at Amaroo brought back the FEELINGs of what went on in those intensive, full-time service roles, and how crazy it all was. It's been many, many years for me since those times (exited 1982), but your story about preparing to receive the Lord of the Universe and getting everything ready for him and then having him be a no-show brought back memories of a similar experience I had in my full-time service role out at SHIP (Shri Hans International Productions) in Southern California, 1979.

There were about 25 of us who did full-time service out there in this warehouse complex for several years, almost all ashram residents; we were isolated from the main premie community geographically and had satsang amongst ourselves in the front office (when we did at all, which was only about once a week). It was a very intensive service environment and many of those video guys worked 18 hour days, seven days a week. We were only about 20 minutes over the hills from Malibu where Maharaji had his main residence, so he could have come by any time and visited, but he never did.

I remember vividly the feeling one day when Michael Wood had called and said M wanted to come visit us. Everybody had on their best clothes, the place was cleaned and shining top to bottom, and the air of expectation was so thick you could cut it with a knife. Everybody went about their service that day very gingerly, on pins and needles, constantly looking over their shoulder anxiously awaiting at any moment the Lord's arrival. I think we were all dying for this, we'd been isolated and slaving away for so long out there that we were starving for the slightest crumb of recognition from he whom we had dedicated our entire lives to. It wasn't like DECA where he was around all the time, I don't think he'd ever come out there, there were no airplanes or expensive cars to attract him, all we did was produce and distribute the videos and publications.

Well, as the day wore on and on and on it started to become obvious that His Highness was not going to be coming. The sense of dejection and disappointment amongst everyone was unbelievable. It was a very sad and pathetic day. As far as I know, Maharaji never did visit the SHIP complex at Westlake Village and the hundreds of thousands of hours of dedicated service by the group of us was never acknowledged in any way.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:56:31 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: I remember that, too
Message:
I remember one time when I was community coordinator in Washington, DC, we had a 'regional' program in Hartford, Connecticut. I remember it was at a High School Auditorium and you had to go through a really bad neighborhood to get to it.

Anyhow, Maharaji was invited and Randy Prouty and others were on the phone with Malibu and apparently there was a good chance M would show up. So, I remember somebody had a connection and we got this nice townhouse for M to stay in. A group of about 10 of us got every kind of cleaner imaginable and 'SCRUBBED' that house from top to bottom to make it worthy of the Lotus Feet. We must have put in 20 hours straight of cleaning and refurbishing.

I remember going back to the hall after being awake for 30 hours and sitting listening to Prouty give satsang as it became clear that himself had no intention of leaving the paradise of Malibu for the working-class reality of Hartford. But of course, M didn't say he WASN'T coming, he just let us work out butts off and then just didn't show.

We then had lots of satsang about "lila" and about how Maharaji was teaching us to surrender, and about how "service" is a fulfillment in and of itself, etc.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:35:44 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: here's my mindfuck in that file:
Message:
I was in the Alive! Kitchen unpaid staff of the premie 'demo' restaurant in the center of Manhattan in late 1973, just pre Millennium. Maharaji stayed out on Long Island at what had been the private home of our restaurant owner, Jimmie LoDato, before he got Knowledge and offered his family's house to the maha and the Holy Family when they were in town. We got word that Mj was talking about coming to the restaurant one day that fall, maybe it was in october, so we all dressed to the nines and operated the restaurant in the usual pre-tipped off Darshan frenzy described by Joy and Joe above.
Now, add to this the unthinkable:
my father the perfectionist, the highpowered CEO who kicked ass at Sperry Rand during the first flight to the Moon, the formidable executive who got his name in Who's Who in America, the man who gave me my lifelong obsession with perfectionism and personal unforgiveness, calls me at the restuarant in midmorning and says he's in the city and he's coming down to eat with me in the afternoon at the Kitchen.
It's a wonder i didnt faint dead away.
No, I kept my focus and steeled my concentration, strung to the max for the apparent inevitability of having my worldly father encounter my (his) Lordly Father right there on ground zero while I was showing hundreds of regular customers to their tables and serving their orders on a new york city workday.
the pitch was unbearable.the pace was blinding. my father walked in and I showed him to a table. I had to tell the others why I had to sit down with him and couldnt 'do my service' for the duration. I sat myself facing the door so I would know when maharaji walked in.
That little pricktease.
He drove into midtown. He had his driver circle the block in the Rolls. He called the office from a block away and asked how the premiewere. He played cruelly with our expectations. I did my best to not waste my father's time while he took his occasion at his table. I was so tightly strung, I didn't know whether I wanted the two of them to meet, or not. The premie in me wanted it. I was so sure if he laid eyes on the Man Himslef, y father would instantly see why I had thrown away my University promise and my great brain to follow this stunning figure.
The real human in me didn't wnat it to happen. I gave equal possibility that my father would size up the guy who held me so captivated, and would slice him to nothing in a few succinct observations, and would pay the check and take off for more real life important things.
And that I would have ruined my chance at the rare times I could be with my father since i grew up and could not live at his home anymore.

In the end, maha decided he didnt want to come in after all. He rounded the block one last time and went elsewhere in the city, leaving us exhausted and frowning, our patrons slightly confused at our strange change in attention and alacrity to their needs.

I think my gut knew what my brain wouldnt face, that day: seeing my father and my guru in the same palce would have wiped out for all time whatever fantasy i held the maha-and myself- in, and my world would have collapsed, right there. and there would have been no one within reach, who would have known how to help me, once it happened.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 11:19:08 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: here's my mindfuck in that file:
Message:
Janet, that must have been excrutiatingly painful. I could feel your dilemma! At least your dad came to see you. That's rather ironic isn't it? The 'lord' doesn't but your unenlightened father does.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:20:57 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Re: Waiting for God
Message:
Yes, I remember spending three days scrunched up on a square foot of floor in the Palace of Peace, London, one Vaisaki, awaiting the Lord who, it turned out, was in Malibu; right to the end the satsangers kept saying if we long for him to come enough, he will.

In a way, learning has been taking place, as people have imploded from focussing on the 'thirst and yearning, fulfilment' deal. People have devised all sorts of ways to protect themselves from feeling the full brunt, and that I think is part of the difficulty in communicating with premies, they don't want to dismantle that and go back and look at the whole premise of the thirst and the fulfilment, to see if it is relevant to them.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:24:42 (EST)
From: Michael McDonald
Email: mcduck@echo.net.au
To: Lesley
Subject: Subjective, indeed
Message:
Though I hate to disgree with my good friend, that training was not all grey wraiths and gloom. I spent many happy hours drinking red wine and sharing bad jokes with old friends (who possibly may not be old friends any more). Sure it was intense and my later deconstruction of the manipulative techniques John Macgregor has outlined was a principal reason for my 'exing', though it must be said there was light among the shade. I can confirm that John is dead right when he says people were set up for a fall.

The most depressed person was an instructor who spent days moping around the campfires. It was very sad, given his/her record for inspiring satsang. See you for coffee, Lesley.

Michael

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:35:20 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Happy hours, bad jokes, and fall guys
Message:
Of course you're right, it wasn't all gloom, though I would guess that most of the good times happened in the evening after dinner, and I wouldn't have seen that, though I did see the cheerful way people would pick up a glass and head out of the dining hall for the campfire, or wherever they were headed.

In recording my observations about the mood, I was in no way characterising the people involved, or casting nasturtiums at their purpose or intent. I think this is an important point; we have been through some pretty seriously 'deconstructing' times, and in talking about it we gain a lot, it runs deep though.

When I read Marianne's post to me, for a while I just had to sit and absorb, let her understanding touch me. And in honour of that, with a little belch to get started:

I was criticised, I was criticised a lot, from the sound my shoes made, and with an unconscious cruelty, on up. For a couple of people nothing other than utterly servile behaviour was acceptable. I was criticised if I spoke to a friend when I served their food, I was criticised for being friendly for fucks sake. That was one hell of a head wind. Some people seem to go into a feudalistic trance at the sniff of a lotus toe.

On the subject of setting up a fall guy, is that conscious or unconscious cruelty? With sympathy, I wonder what 'frend' thinks.

I might switch to a juice, oh who am I kidding, coffee it is, love Lesley

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:55:56 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: feudalistic trance line LOL!
Message:
Some people seem to go into a feudalistic trance at the sniff of a lotus toe.

Spiritual feudalism may well be an interesting way to describe PAPAM (people around people around M). Stay near the castle at all costs. I know it was true for me.

Good one Lesley!

Richard who can't always remember the past much less live in it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:58:56 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: feudalistic trance line L (with text)OL!
Message:
Some people seem to go into a feudalistic trance at the sniff of a lotus toe.

Spiritual feudalism may well be an interesting way to describe PAPAM (people around people around M). Stay near the castle at all costs. I know it was true for me.

Good one Lesley!

Richard who can't always remember the past much less live in it.

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 15:30:23 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: See, Lesley's a poet! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:16:37 (EST)
From: Frend
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Indeed, subjective
Message:
I empathise with John, Michael and Lesley.
I dread the invitation to attend a training but I always end up going.
And there's always a point when you think, you'll never come again, like the guy at Amaroo who said it was like 'a medieval penitence session''.
But to me it's like going climbing.
After all the effort and money, someone will always say 'Hey guys, why are we doing this? Let's turn back'.
And we all laugh and keep going.
You can't make an omlette without breaking eggs.
Generally I play it pretty safe, I need at least a little danger.

Frend
.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:44:43 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Frend
Subject: What's any of this have to do with Knowledge?
Message:
Forgive me for asking what to you, fresher vintage premies, might seem a little obvious, but what does any of this training shit have to do with Knowledge? I always thought that the meditation was the elixir of change, not bully-boy EST-type harrassment. Things can only drift so far before they're someplace else, no? Does M ever address this and explain what exactly he's trying to accomplish with all this nonsense?
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 15:51:28 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: LOL, very good question
Message:
As you follow the switchback path it gets hard to remember salient points like that, I suppose you could argue that it was always a path of meditation AND devotion, and the trainings were supposed to synchronise your devotion, teehee.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 13:29:28 (EST)
From: Asst FA
Email: None
To: Frend
Subject: Frend/Alledaine stick to one alias [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:09:52 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Frend
Subject: omelette
Message:
'I empathise with John, Michael and Lesley.'

How so?

'I dread the invitation to attend a training but I always end up going.'

That fear was a warning signal, yet you ignored your fear. That's called denial. It's there for a reason. Why do you feel this fear? Can you talk about it?

'And there's always a point when you think, you'll never come again, like the guy at Amaroo who said it was like 'a medieval penitence session'.'

That's very telling. I take it you agree with the guy. Maybe you should listen to your heart and not go back.

'But to me it's like going climbing.'

Oh really. Do you get a kick out of being abused? In climbing, people don't always get hurt. You are getting hurt.

'After all the effort and money, someone will always say 'Hey guys, why are we doing this? Let's turn back'.'

Good question, why are you? Again the word 'always', indicating that Rawat is consistantly abusive.

'And we all laugh and keep going.'

That reminds me of a true story I read in 'The Gift of Fear', a book about how to protect yourself and trusting your intuition. A bomb was mailed (I believe by the unibomber) to the former president of a company. The package looked suspicious, one guy joked about it being a bomb. The president opened the package and was killed.

'You can't make an omlette without breaking eggs.'

That analogy doesn't apply. The eggshells can be thrown away. Your egg should not be thrown away. The only omelette being made is scrambled brains.

'Generally I play it pretty safe, I need at least a little danger.'

There is not just danger, you are actually getting hurt, and you are in danger of getting hurt far worse.

Trust your intuition.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:07:37 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Intuition
Message:
Excellent advice, G. Trust your intuition.

As part of my PTSD recovery, I've been reading an interesting book 'Emotional Genius' that supports what you are saying. The author shows how emotions are there to help us manage life effectively. For instance, fear is an ally because it alerts us to potential danger. If you notice a blur at the side of the road, fear starts the adreneline to aid in swerving to miss the deer. To deny the message fear is sending could be problematic.

Richard, the emotional cretin but learning

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:53:57 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: 'Emotional Intelligence'
Message:
There's also a book called 'Emotional Intelligence ...' that I've read part of, it's pretty good. I wasn't aware of 'Emotional Genius', that sounds worth reading. In high school someone said to me 'You've the dumbest smartest guy I know.' I suppose deep down I had some inkling of what he meant, given that I remeember it, but on a surface level I didn't. I didn't ask him what he meant, which only proved his point. Now I think that emotional intelligence is actually more important than intellectual intelligence, as least in terms of the quality of one's life. Of course, they are both important.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 09:26:13 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Frend
Subject: what drivel
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 03:30:19 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: More! More! Lesley and Mr McD.
Message:
It's better than Rashomon. John's spit and polish version. Lesley's poetic version which really shook me. Michael cruelly teasing with too little.

I hope the two of you are inspired to write more about this because it is a fascinating glimpse into a world most of us have never seen - the secluded world of Amaroo the inner sanctum of the cult.

Lesley, your decription made me feel that I was 20 something again doing service at a festival - the manic highs and lows which I now regard as part of my insane youth and then I remember that most of the people at Amaroo are 50 something like me and some are even grandparents.

I find that really shocking. No wonder premies are sounding increasingly childish to me. By fifty most of us have got a bit of common sense. In fact most people have it far younger. I was a slow learner.

Yep it's a really weird cult. But I knew that 20 years ago. What I would not admit to myself was that the sickness emanates from Rev Rawat. I only realized that about a year ago.

My heart goes out to the real premies/lovers, those who are not X-rated just the sincere church-ladies who are bankrolling this farce with money and free labor.

But I am finding it increasingly difficult to feel any sympathy for any of the members of Rawat's inner circle or X-rated entourage. And the longer they stay in the less sympathy I will have for them. They've sold out on ordinary decent people.

If these people who have been around for 30 years really think that K is so great and if they really want to help people, why don't they just show their friends and families. Instead they have to lie to their families when they get back from these R-rated trainings. They don't believe in K. They know that is bollocks. They believe in a silly fairy tale Hindu guru. That's just so damn cowardly for middle-aged people.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:29:27 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: poetic version
Message:
Thanks for that, Pat. Though, as a schoolgirl, I rather thought poetry was stuff and nonsense, I am beginning to suspect there is a streak of the poet in me!
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:39:22 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Michael McDonald
Subject: Emotional abuse is worse than physical abuse
Message:
Lesley: Your post took my breath away. I can't imagine the strength and fortitude it took for you to write about this experience and post it for public comment. I send you many hugs and wish that I was with you so I could care for you.

The major contradiction of being involved with this group is that there were some good experiences and friendships that made us stay. Then there were the drips, the emotionally or intellectually devastating experiences that made us question what we had actually signed up for: peace and kindness or mistreatment. Emotional abuse is never acceptable, no matter how it is justified or explained away.

You did not deserve to be treated unkindly. You did not deserve to be taken advantage of. Your good deeds and intentions deserved recognition.

You are a good and valuable person. I hope you will find a community that recognizes how valuable you are.

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:50:44 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Yeah!
Message:
Grrrrreat post, Lesley - almost like a chapter of a book. 'Life as a PG-rated Premie' or something like that.

Yeah, Marianne, you said, 'The major contradiction of being involved with this group is that there were some good experiences and friendships that made us stay...'

Occasionally I realize that I have lost contact with hundreds of people I shared my life with for 12 years. I don't even remember all or even most of them, yet I lived for years in ashrams with some of them. New people have come into my life, and I am happy, but I feel sad having lost contact with people from over a decade of my life. I sometimes thought of going to programs just to see some people I missed, but couldn't stomach it.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 03:37:59 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: X-rated. R-rated and PG-rated PWKs
Message:
Too funny to read you call Lesley PG-rated. That's what I had in mind to call the restaurant staff at Amaroo. I called the trainees R-rated.
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:12:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji Question Contest
Message:
In a thread below, we talk a bit about what we'd ask M if we could at a public program. Then, it turns out, someone asked him a great question, does he meditate?

Anyone have any other good ideas for that moment that might indeed come to some lucky person one of these days?

How about:

Maharaji, is it true that you can be an alcoholic and still practice Knowledge? How about have a mistress? Will Knowledge get in the way of that?

or

Maharaji, I've recently come across your brother, Satpal's, website wherein he says that HE was appointed Master after your father's death. I'm beginning to think all this Master stuff is just some family business for you guys. After all, you've sure made a bundle, haven't you? How can you persuade me that you're not a fraudulent cult leader other than by telling me never to doubt the purity of the master?

or

Maharaji, I've heard that you berate the hell out of people at your 'training sessions', often abusing them to the point where you actually insist that they second guess all their own opinions about anything and NEVER question yours. How can YOU be sure you're not turning into a cult leader if you weren't already one decades ago?

or

Maharaji, I gave you lots and lots of money over the years because I trusted you. I don't trust you anymore and indeed don't trust what you've done with the money. How can I receive an accounting for the thousands and thousands of dollars I donated?

or

Maharaji, do you think premies should continue to be friends with people who leave your cult? Are YOU friends with your brothers, Satpal and Bhole Ji? Aren't you ashamed of yourself?

(I know the last one's a little thin but, hell, it's just another entry.)

Anyone?

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 07:51:00 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Maharaji Question Contest
Message:
If you are so insistent that you are not God, what was up with that 'Arti' stuff I had to drag my ass out of bed every morning to sing while I was in the Ashram?

If it was simply that your followers were so confused about who you are, why didn't you bother to correct Rich Neel when he sang that song that began 'Maharaji, you are the Lord?'

Maybe 'Maharaji, you aren't really the Lord but you think since we are gullible enough to believe it, so you might as well cash in on it' wasn't a catchy enough tune for you to dance to.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 06:37:40 (EST)
From: What % of that darshan cash
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: do you report to the IRS? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:00:08 (EST)
From: Dave Punshon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: If M is all knowing.....
Message:
how come he doesn't know how to stop this forum page,
and if he isn't all-knowing, why the hell is anyone following him?
Blind leading blind if this is the case (which I believe it is)
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:19:44 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Can I have my trust fund back? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:20:34 (EST)
From: RichMandrake..
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe PLEASE tell me that was a Joke.
Message:
I am hoping that You DIDNT ever give MahaRawat your Trust Fund..many of us sincerely deluded did...but Im hoping you avoided that inglorious fate Your Fellow Formerly Deluded Apostate..RichMandrake
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:51:48 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: RichMandrake..
Subject: He's not the only one
Message:
In 1973 I forked over several thousand dollars sent to me after the death of my grandmother, while I was living in the ashram. Granted, it wasn't megabucks, but to an otherwise impoverished ex-hippie, it was really all I had.

There was a definite vibe of not having personal anything, let alone bank accounts or cars. Fakiranand was running around the country guilt-tripping everyone to give give give everything to the holy lotus feet. And those feet ran away with it and built a secret empire of debauchery, delusion and deceit. A fine kettle of fish, that.

Carl

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 22:31:59 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Carl and Joe--sue RAWAT [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:53:59 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, an idea...
Message:
Since you've had such good luck getting EV to respond to your letters, why don't you write them and ask for your trust fund back?
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 18:51:21 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Yes, Marianne....
Message:
That's an excellent suggestion! I'd be most curious to read the response.
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:33:56 (EST)
From: busy bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Maharaji Question Contest
Message:
You banished your mom for the last 17 years of her life.
Are your kids pissed that they never got to meet grandma?
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:27:54 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji Questions
Message:
If you were to have a sudden fatal accident, who would replace you to carry on your 'work'?

Why are you so threatened by scrutiny and criticism, especially as you are a public figure?

Do you still consider yourself 'divine', above or beyond any or everyone else in the world?

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:36:15 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: How could I forget?
Message:
Have you stopped cheating on your wife, yes or no?
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Date: Tues, Nov 20, 2001 at 23:28:22 (EST)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Questions
Message:
Maharaji, if the Master tells a PWK to drink cyanide-laced Kool-Aid, what should the PWK do?

Maharaji, if the Master tells a PWK that two and two is five, what should the PWK think?

Maharaji, have you read the book '1984'? What about 'Animal Farm'?

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 00:56:44 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Re: Questions
Message:
Maharaji. I just inherited ten billion dollars. Could I have a private meeting with you after this event?
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:18:17 (EST)
From: Tami Sunshine Rainbow
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Questions
Message:
Maharaji, if I dye my hair blonde, will you fuck me?
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:28:59 (EST)
From: Jon Peters, Hairdresser to the Stars
Email: None
To: Tami Sunshine Rainbow
Subject: LOL...the best one yet ;) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 02:23:25 (EST)
From: M's Response
Email: None
To: Tami Sunshine Rainbow
Subject: Ask Me again AFTER your Boob Job
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 17:01:40 (EST)
From: M's Other Response
Email: None
To: M's Response
Subject: What do you mean?
Message:
I've already fucked you!
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 04:05:05 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: M's Response
Subject: Hey, M-fella, what do you want.....
Message:
......to be when you grow up?
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 03:53:34 (EST)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: M's Response
Subject: Psst! Can I have your Krishna drag...
Message:
....seeing as you're not using it anymore?
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:14:20 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Maharaji, remember...
Message:
...when you used to dress up like Krishna? Well, I was, um, just wondering, what happened to the jeweled crown?
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 14:19:06 (EST)
From: Krishna Krown Keeper
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Here it is
Message:
Thelma & Cynthia,

Here's the outfit just waiting in it's special transport case for that exciting day when it is worn again. Then we will see the Worn-Again Krishna. If it gets too worn out though, I'll send you an E-Bay auction alert so you can bid on it.

KKK
[ Krishna Outfit ]

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 12:46:32 (EST)
From: I melted it down
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: and made a jeweled 'throne' in the lav [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 16:11:10 (EST)
From: You can't melt down
Email: None
To: I melted it down
Subject: precious stones...but...
Message:
...you sure can sell them!
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 04:45:46 (EST)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: You can't melt down
Subject: Precious stones.....you sure can sell them!
Message:
And replace them with cubic zirconium. Who can tell the difference between a ruby and some red glass from 100 feet away?
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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 09:57:28 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: Re: Precious stones.....you sure can sell them!
Message:
Exactly, Pat! That's in question. I've only heard rumors about those gems...

Love,
Cyn

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Date: Fri, Nov 23, 2001 at 13:28:10 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: All that glistens....
Message:
I didn't answer your question about Boccelli in the thread
above because I wanted to think about the other stuff (deleting trolls) before answering that.

Anyway, so about Boccelli: people either love him or hate him. I'm indifferent. His voice is not great, less than perfect pitch. I enjoy him when he sings old Italian love songs like O Sole Mio but his voice is not suited to opera. I wouldn't buy a CD or go out of my way to hear him.

There are better tenors in our Merola opera school but they don't have unscrupulous marketing managers. Actually some of them are better than Jose Carreras whose voice grew weaker after his cancer but not the divine Pavarotti (also an untrained musician like Boccelli - neither can read music.)

But my favorite is Domingo who really is not a tenor. He was a baritone but retrained his voice. It is not as sweet as Pavarotti's but there is more to opera than a sweet voice. Look at Callas who did not have a great voice but used it so passionately.

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Date: Wed, Nov 21, 2001 at 05:11:40 (EST)
From: Tcheuki
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: But really.
Message:
What was the continuation of that Phila'story?? It seems to be utterly interesting
Please don't answer me 'why do you want to know...
lol
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