Rick -:- White Boy Goes Taliban (OT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:38:58 (EST)

gerry -:- 'IT' is coming (not OT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:32:05 (EST)

don -:- miami event -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:27:58 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Translation -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:53:45 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Re: miami event -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:41:37 (EST)

Abi -:- virus alert -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:44:13 (EST)

__ Chuck S. -:- The 'Pentagone' virus... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:35:30 (EST)

__ JHB -:- Re: virus alert -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:46:36 (EST)

__ __ cq -:- It ain't Badtrans, John -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:32:25 (EST)

John Macgregor -:- JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:25:06 (EST)

__ Pullaver -:- Re: JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 13:05:01 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Re: JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:08:19 (EST)

__ Jim S. -:- John. Please Consider This... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 10:33:54 (EST)

__ Patrick W -:- Re: JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 07:50:52 (EST)

__ __ Voyeur -:- Re: JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 09:19:31 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Another wonderful post, John -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:23:28 (EST)

__ Channeling George -:- Somewhere -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:06:26 (EST)

__ __ channelling Morrison -:- the end -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:47:33 (EST)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- Here you go -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:20:07 (EST)

__ __ So why have over 90 per cent -:- of Maharaji's students -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:43:02 (EST)

__ __ __ and the other 10% are devoid -:- of any humanness (NT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:58:55 (EST)

__ __ Summary of CG's post -:- We love Guru Maharaj Ji [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:30:00 (EST)

__ Barbara -:- Re: JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:16:23 (EST)

__ __ Jethro -:- JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:15:54 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Another Gem, Thanks John [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:44:03 (EST)

Deputy Dog -:- Whatever happened to shp, Sandy? -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:01:09 (EST)

__ Stonor -:- Last I heard, he's fine ... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:19:38 (EST)

McDuck -:- Question to Gerry -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:28:59 (EST)

__ such -:- when -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:07:05 (EST)

__ gerry -:- reply to McDuck -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:01:20 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: reply to Gerry -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:13:12 (EST)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I say Jim extended an olive branch -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:31:25 (EST)

__ __ McDuck -:- Re: reply to McDuck -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:07:39 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Re: reply to McDuck -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:07:26 (EST)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: reply to McDuck -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:14:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You've got to be kidding! -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:27:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- No, seriously... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:25:36 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Gerry, that stinks -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:21:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Gerry, that stinks -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:30:56 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- worldwidelinkup.da.ru -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:44:13 (EST)

Joe -:- Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:07:15 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 01:32:55 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Very Powerful -- Everyone Read!!! -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:45:53 (EST)

__ __ Eddie Fisher -:- Thanks Jethro -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:19:20 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Jethro, thank you for that. [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:38:22 (EST)

__ Jim S. -:- It's a good question, Joe, because -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:09:03 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- money is given, just in case he is God. Yes. [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:45:08 (EST)

__ Inside Edition -:- Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:49:51 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- The Malibu Mob -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:58:35 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- I downplayed it , but I believed it -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:21:16 (EST)

__ such -:- oh, da Lord [premies winking] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:15:46 (EST)

__ PatD -:- You left in '83 Joe.... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:27:45 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Question, Pat. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:44:08 (EST)

__ __ __ PatD -:- Re: Question, Pat. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:11:32 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Well, Joe - several questions. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:02:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- OOps wrong Pat. Oh well... [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:23:34 (EST)

__ Jerry -:- Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:57:05 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- The Name is Guru Maharaji Ji... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:05:54 (EST)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- and Guruing is my game -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:38:24 (EST)

__ Timmi -:- Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:50:01 (EST)

__ JHB -:- I'm confused about this -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:00:38 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:45:37 (EST)

__ __ Peg -:- Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:20:34 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:08:29 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- P.S. Joe...where the tape?? [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:10:55 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks for reminding me... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:53:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Joe, I'll watch for it... [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:00:08 (EST)

Patrick W -:- Some answers for Klaus Webber -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:04:51 (EST)

__ Klaus Webber -:- Sorry to disprove your considered replyky -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:28:01 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Is this guy for real or an imposter? -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 09:47:19 (EST)

__ __ Patrick W -:- to Klaus- contin. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:25:40 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- READ further down, Klaus is troll [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:47:20 (EST)

__ Sulla -:- To Klaus -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:44:33 (EST)

__ __ Pauline Premie -:- Well I do -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:24:55 (EST)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- I'm confused -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 10:02:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- Well, now that you mention it... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:52:01 (EST)

__ AJW -:- 'Friend'? -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:05:07 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- Good questions Anth -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:24:42 (EST)

__ PatD -:- Well said Patrick -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:57:03 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- Say it like it is, brotha [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:37:45 (EST)

__ PatC -:- You said it perfectly, Patrick W. Thanks. [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:36:16 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- And May I Add.... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:15:52 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Thanks, good summary (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:13:27 (EST)

Joe -:- Ollie North's Explanation....(OT) -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:41:50 (EST)

__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Ollie North...how to ask MAHA a Q.. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:31:10 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Hi Mickey.... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:23:59 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Actually the Raiders are too.. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:25:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: Actually the Raiders are too.. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:22:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Actually the Raiders are too.. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:26:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Muchas gracias -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:25:53 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Maybe a Burkha....? NT/OT -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:56:40 (EST)

Cynthia -:- Bill I just emailed you... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 10:48:40 (EST)

Vicki -:- How 'bout this? -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 09:28:16 (EST)

__ janet -:- hey vicki-email me -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:01:40 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Re: hey vicki-email me -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 10:00:53 (EST)

__ Chuck S. -:- A P.R. firm? It's possible... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 00:26:38 (EST)

suchabanana -:- segue to 'Ginger'... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:56:21 (EST)

__ suchabanana -:- Re: segue to St. Ginger Vitus Dance. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:23:25 (EST)

__ __ such -:- St. Ginger Vitus - Osama connection -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:47:14 (EST)

__ __ __ janet -:- sat ire is what we have here -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:55:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ such -:- that's right, -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 07:13:57 (EST)

__ __ __ .. -:- ,. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:20:59 (EST)

__ __ __ such -:- Bin Laden - Ginger link!! -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:54:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hey Such, talkin' to yourself?:):) -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:22:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ such -:- gut reaction to party poopers: nth argument [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:34:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ such -:- ... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:34:04 (EST)

such -:- ashes in the Ganges... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:11:26 (EST)

Salam -:- Am proud to say that -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 23:15:23 (EST)

__ malas -:- It's the best that's WHY!! -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 08:01:21 (EST)

__ __ lama s. -:- Re: It's the best that's WHY!! OK -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:14:37 (EST)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Re: It's the best that's WHY!! OK -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:39:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ such -:- but, who's cooking tamales? -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:47:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ annabanana -:- Does he make m look bad or what?!!! -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:45:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- you shoulda seen it shake -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 08:06:36 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Good Job Salam -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:48:17 (EST)

__ such -:- Re: Am proud to say that -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 00:33:56 (EST)

__ __ Salam -:- guru Watch links alert -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:34:26 (EST)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- This guy went out for the proverbial -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 07:00:02 (EST)

__ __ __ such -:- guy went nuts at the New Age store -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:31:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ salam -:- guy went nuts at the -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:40:34 (EST)

Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:38:58 (EST) From: Rick Email: None To: All Subject: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT) Message:

I just watched Politically Incorrect. The main topic was John Walker, a 20 year-old American Taliban fighter who was captured in Afghanistan. The question was to what extent is he responisible for treason. Although the panel considered his age as a mitigating factor, no one seemed familiar with cults and their influence. In fact, the word cult wasn't even mentioned. Walker got interested in Islam at 16 and found his way to Pakistan to study, eventually joining the Taliban. This guy had some very bad luck. [ White Boy Goes Taliban ]

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:32:05 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: 'IT' is coming (not OT) Message:

No not that 'IT' but the new software. OK, OK, I thought it would be quicker but I've a large learning curve before I can get my new domain up and running. This will include new software for the forum and lots of server space for anyone who wants it (related to the topic, of course.) Features include: threaded/non-threaded, framed/non-framed board, configurable chat room with icons, fully configurable look & feel, fully configurable message page, emoticons, forum search engine, close/open thread, intergrated file-upload, spell-checker, block user by IP, bad word filter and auto-ban, user registration, message editing by user, rating, email notification to users, email alerts, request password by email, online user tracker, and many, many more. Each of these features may be enabled by the administrator independently of the others: Multi-page threaded or non-threaded message board Messages are organized in categories Register and protect your identity with a password Auto fill-in of your name and e-mail address after you login for each session. Private discussions between any two registered users. Chat function allows realtime commuciations between members. Submit your links to the forums links section. Once logged in, you do not need to enter your user name again during the session. The ability to modify your own posts. The ability to delete your own posts. The ability to prevent replies to any of your posts The ability to collapse/expand, close/open your threads. The ability to send/receive email notifications for new posts. The ability to upload a file when you post, which is then automatically linked. If a .gif or .jpg image file, it will be displayed automatically as thumbnails, using the iconizer. Identify new posts easily (by different color) The ability to use HTML in the message body (HTML will not work in the Subject field). The ability to add link URLs. The ability to add image links. The ability for the message body to be empty, sometimes called NT (No Text) posts. Posts with an image are so indicated on the main page. See what's new since your last visit. You can search message body (CPU intensive) as well as subject field for keywords (Find feature) within a date range. You can use the Overview feature to read top level posts (without replies) Easy access to information.Very readable layout. At a glance of the message line, a user knows whether the post is new (coloring), size of the message, whether it has an image link inside, rating of the message (if enabled), number of replies to it, and the number of visits to it (if enabled). One can also collapse or expand the threading. Modifiable user profiles. Registered users can create and modify their profiles and passwords. Rate posts or articles and see stars and vote counts next to them. Detects and rejects 'double-rating' on the same page. &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Reliability. Forget about crashes, lost data and other problems with other boards. Reliability is the first feature we built into the board. Security. All aspects of the Board are secure. Administrative work, such as message board creation and management, are authenticated from the beginning to the end. Unlike some other boards, which can easily be broken into by programmers who read the code, this Board has no security holes. Fast. Generated html pages are compact and fast to load through highly efficient algorithms and other means. Easy to install and configure. Just set the paths to perl 5 and the master config directory, everything else is done through the web browser. Even a beginner can have a board up in a few minutes. (ED-huh!) Builtin multisite search engine. Want a search engine for your web sites? This software can spider them and index them and allow users to search them. Use pre-configured templates or create your own. We make it easy for you to get started right away by choosing any of our stock settings (ed-- we'll see so far not so good but I'm optimistic :)) Frame / noframe interfaces. Make your choice. Change your mind? Easy to change your board and all messages, even those already posted. Threading / no threading. Choose if you want messages to be threaded or not on the board. Highly configurable. It allows you to set the depth of threading, whether text is inlined, number of articles per page, colors, fonts, backgrounds... With over 400 configurable parameters, you can create Internet forums of completely different styles at the click of a button. Regeneration Board and existing messages can easily and rapidly be regenerated to reflect changed configuration. Index recovery even after operating system crash. Powerful and easy to use administrative functions, such as delete or archive by subject, IP address, date or author. Admin activities are logged with IPs and resolved hostnames. Forbidden word & name features can prevent posting of unsuitable language and names and automatically ban users who have a predetermined number of violations. Banned user will find it hard to get back in. Detection and prevention of "posting bombs". E-mail alarm of possible attacks is sent to admin. Two level administration - administrator and moderator. Administrator has all rights while moderator has those assigned by the administrator. Moderator rights always exclude the ability to configure the message boards. Pre Moderation. When enabled, messages must be first reviewed and approved by moderator before showing up in the board. User registration. Users can be required to register and login to post and for other functions. Email validation on user registration. If enabled, when user registers, an e-mail is sent to user provided e-mail addresses with a unique activation link to activate the account. The user may also need to acknowledge acceptance of the forum rules. Users will find themselves exposed if they try to assume multiple identities. All names used by a poster are indicated on individual message pages posted by that same person. Visit counters. The Board can track and display number of visits to a message. Statistics. Compute and display posting statistics. Email notification of new messages to a set of e-mail addresses, of responses to orginal posters. Many more....

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:27:58 (EST) From: don Email: None To: All Subject: miami event Message:

<< Back Continue >> Contributions beyond the suggested registration amount are welcome and important to the financial success of the event. If you wish to make an additional contribution, please select an amount from the options below. It will be added to your total. The registration fee is $120. None Selected $25 Extra Contribution $50 Extra Contribution $75 Extra Contribution $100 Extra Contribution $125 Extra Contribution $150 Extra Contribution $175 Extra Contribution $200 Extra Contribution $300 Extra Contribution $400 Extra Contribution If you requested translation on the previous page, please check-off the Translation Contribution option to contribute $15 toward the cost of providing translation. $15 Translation Contribution << Back Continue >> Processing your payment. This may take up to 60 seconds. Thank You.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:53:45 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: don Subject: Translation Message:

Contributions beyond the suggested registration amount are welcome and important to the financial success of the event. Contributions beyond the suggested registration amount are welcome and important to the financial success of MAHARJI (The Event?) Yeah right, has he revised his name again. To make an event profitable is a no brainer even at the low end donation level. The way these plays for money are inflated and presented by stressing the importance of meeting and exceeding the suggested donation to insure a successful event is nothing more than a cold hard con. I wonder if any of the premies in the hall will scan a head count, calculate costs, subtract reasonable expenses, multiply attendance and wonder if it all adds up to a successful event. Are there any PWK's with mathematic skills still in tact?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:41:37 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: don Subject: Re: miami event Message:

I got this Ev email: In Boulder, Colorado last week, Maharaji spoke about the upcoming event in Miami: 'I think you will have a good time; A lot of people are coming; It is going to be very special. Something old, something new.' I also got an email with more goodies from Visions. It was such a fancy email all I had to do to buy was click on a goodie.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:44:13 (EST) From: Abi Email: None To: All Subject: virus alert Message:

Hi. I was just sent 18 53kb virus messages. The attachment was screen saver. Anyone else got these?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:35:30 (EST) From: Chuck S. Email: None To: Abi Subject: The 'Pentagone' virus... Message:

... a.k.a 'gone' or 'goner' virus, disguises itself as a screensaver (scr) file. If it gets opened, it attacks virus scanner, firewall and other security software, by disabling it then deleting the files that hold them. I just read about it on C-NET, it's the latest one. :| [ The Goner Virus/Worm info... ]

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:46:36 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: virus alert Message:

Abi, We've all had these recently, although 18 in one go seems a bit high. If it's the same one (called badtrans), you are at risk if you have IE v5.01 or 5.5 because it can infect your PC without you opening any attachment. If you have either of these versions, Microsoft have a patch that fixes the loophole. If you haven't got either of those versions, then you should be safe as long you follow the usual safety guidelines of not opening attachments you are unsure of. John.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:32:25 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: JHB Subject: It ain't Badtrans, John Message:

Here's the low-down from http://www.guardian.co.uk/internetnews/story/0,7369,612471,00.html Latest computer virus is a Goner Sarah Left Wednesday December 5, 2001 After battling through the Badtrans worm last week, computer users are being hit today by yet another email virus, this one called Goner. Experts described Goner as one of the fastest-spreading viruses they had seen to date. It is, however, simple to spot and if users delete the email their computers will not be infected. The infected email has the word 'Hi' as its subject line and the body text reads, 'How are you? When I saw this screen saver, I immediately thought about you. I am in a harry (sic), I promise you will love it.' Its attachment poses as a screensaver and is labelled 'gone.scr'. Unlike more complex worms, such as last week's Badtrans which is still doing the rounds, the subject line, attachment and message of Goner do not vary. When users double click on the attachment, the infected email spreads itself to all contacts in a Microsoft Outlook address book. Anti-virus companies have issued updates to block Goner, though users can also protect themselves simply by hitting the delete button. Alex Shipp, spokesman for anti-virus service MessageLabs, said: 'It's spreading with tremendous speed and thousands of users in Britain have already been sent it. The virus mass mails itself out through email and attempts to destroy anti-virus software on computers, which could prove extremely problematic for those unfortunate enough to receive it.' Goner was first detected yesterday morning, and experts believe it was created in Europe. The US, the UK and France are the worst hit of the 17 countries affected so far. Mr Shipp said: 'We had a handful of reports this morning but at mid-afternoon in the UK it went mad. We have had about 30,000 reports and the figure is rising.' Graham Cluley, senior technology consultant for Sophos Anti-Virus, said: 'This worm highlights the importance of being suspicious about anything that arrives unexpectedly in your inbox ... Even if the email appears to have come from a friend it still should not be automatically trusted.' A criminal investigation has now been launched in an effort to track down the person responsible for the virus.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:25:06 (EST) From: John Macgregor Email: johnmac@turboweb.net.au To: All Subject: JSCA Message:

Just Some Cool Afterthoughts. There’ve been some emails and responses and developments. So - some comments on: trolls, Lovejoy, neurotheology, crusades: 1. Trolls: I hope this is not too outspoken for a new boy. I shared my thoughts on trolls with JHB recently, and he asked me to post them here. The below may not be relevant in the new password era. But given the damage I feel trolls have done, and how persistent infestations are, I wanted to add my voice to the general climate of ‘troll protection’, in the hope that it persists... CW (who, if I’m not mistaken, I’ve known all my adult life), is highly intelligent, not stupid. There's no way he would be posting the stuff he does, and believing it to be true. He's putting it there not to initiate intelligent debate or to air facts, but to drive ex-premies collectively nuts. He has been succeeding. We rose to the bait like hungry fish. We bought into the melodrama every time, and in the midst of that we lost the thread of our discussions - just as he intended us to. I hope we stick to our guns in keeping the trolls out. If there’s a public meeting which a whole crowd is enjoying, and one person in the crowd starts screaming obscenities, he is escorted to the door. Not beaten up, not screamed at in return - just politely shown the way out. Freedom of speech is highly valued in Western societies, but it’s never been an absolute. Repeatedly issues have been forgotten and threads side-tracked. The trolls have successfully disrupted this forum for a long time. This was their goal, and they succeeded. We were putty in the trolls’ hands. IMO the forum has been significantly damaged by them. You can see it by just scanning the subject lines of the threads in the archives. As soon as an issue gathers some momentum - especially one with the capacity to make premies think - there is a troll attack, and the debate gets derailed. All is forgotten in a hail of verbal bullets, point-scoring and acrimony. A life-changing process gets changed into a childish game. Forum: 0 Maharaji: 1 And this is life-changing stuff we’re talking about here. (I speak from experience: my life has recently been changed by it.) I do believe that premies and exes alike should be encouraged to read the forum, and to post - and that premies should be respected, and never attacked personally. But good faith is required by all posters. CW would have to be an idiot to believe most of what he has written: believe me, he doesn’t. The content of the trolls’ posts mattered to us. It didn’t much matter to them. The strategy was what counted, and the posts were just a relatively inconsequential means to an end. Dropping in regular verbal hand grenades was a well-thought-out technique for disrupting the forum. It worked brilliantly, because we fell for it hook, line and sinker, week after week. It didn’t just throw the exes off the rails. As a secondary benefit, curious premies checking in here have been repelled time and again by the acrimony and drama. (I was one of them in 1997. I’ve talked to others this week.) The third aspect of the strategy was to dissuade people from posting, with defamatory attacks. Maybe this has worked too: I know an awful lot of exes who lurk here but don’t post. Many would have a lot to contribute. But the main game was disruption and distraction. And because of the ease with which he was able to exploit our love of drama, in my opinion CW won. We may have won each individual battle with him - but on his part, that was planned attrition. He won the war. It was an electronic rope-a-dope strategy par excellence. Again and again, he drew us in, wore us out, and took our focus away from the main game. I may not think this was very ethical or honest, but tactically he deserves full credit for pulling it off. It’s too late to undo that damage. But I hope CW, and those like him, don’t get a chance to perpetrate it again. In my final years as a premie, M went on quite a bit about gratitude. I felt increasingly little of it. But I do feel genuine, deep gratitude for being able to be here: gratitude to all of you, and to EPO’s founders, who have performed a public service of extraordinary magnitude. This is something Rich Mandrake posted here in September: 'What I Found is EX-PREMIE.ORG...God Bless You, Forever!!!...For the Next Days even weeks..I found myself Devouring the Pages and Posts of Mishler, Dettmers, Donners et Al...And as I Digested the Material, I FINALLY had the pieces of the Puzzle that had been missing, LO these MANY YEARS...I had the information to Deprogram myself ..from a belief ..that absent this website..I might have carried with me to My Grave...so THANK YOU AGAIN....those of you who have put up and supported this information....I am Grateful to You...your Courage and your HONESTY...in truthfully portraying and exposing the one who apparently so sadly is lacking in those qualities...' That’s what I call gratitude. Maybe those of you who have been ‘out’ for a while can’t appreciate the magnitude of it. But I can, as can my cohort of recent exes, and those I know who are leaving as we speak, and it’s big stuff, and this place has often been like a lifeline for us, and they, and I, would hate for it to be sidetracked again by an addiction to drama. 2. Lovejoy: I didn’t answer Mr Lovejoy’s November 11 attack, because rather than magnify it into a public brawl I wanted to pursue it with him privately - which we did by email for about a fortnight. I should first point out, to those who asked, that I have written for David’s paper only occasionally, as a favour, and generally gratis. My employers are the metropolitan dailies. So David’s defamation won’t affect my livelihood. I had no objection to David’s criticising me for what I said about M and EV. Dealing with these criticisms is something of a no-brainer, IMO, and we’re all familiar with the arguments each way - and for those reasons I don’t want to go into them all again here. (Tho I thank those who defended me at the time!) However the personal attacks on me were unfair - to say nothing of untrue - and I wanted David to apologise for them. I pointed out to David that his blistering opinion of my poor political acumen came just after his newspaper (and others nationwide) ran stories on my winning a national journalism award, for a year-long series of political articles; that he could have determined whether I was ‘on the verge of a nervous breakdown’ by talking to me; that my ‘boastfulness’ about political/FBI connections was (as David well knew) to forestall any CAC defamation, and that I’m not an habitual boaster; and that his dragging my family affairs into the public gaze was unethical. IMO David didn’t honestly address these problems in his reply. I pointed this out. David discussed the matter with his 30-year friend Glen Whittaker. Glen then intervened on David’s behalf, and immediately raised the possibility of an apology for the personal attacks. However Glen said it could not be made on the forum, because that would dignify the forum in a way it didn’t merit. Glen suggested that once David had apologised to me, I could convey this news to the forum. I pointed out that the forum was considered good enough for the original attack - and therefore it was good enough for the apology. But to no avail. Glen was always extremely civil. We pursued the apology idea (and several other ideas) for a while, then stalemated on the forum issue. Then came a final email from David - IMO even more bellicose than his original - which reversed course: the apology was now off the agenda. At this point I judged the discussion a lost cause. Having an unblemished 28-year friendship terminated over the Internet - without any prior personal contact - is one of the more surreal experiences of my Knowledge-exiting saga. 3. Neurotheology: [Skip straight to item 4 if you’re not into this intellectual stuff.] Re my God-in-the-brain story... Jim said: “I can't see how any of this is good for the belief in God. It doesn't get rid of him entirely but, like so much else in science, it sure pushes him back even further into the shadows.” Hamzen said: “Think you've been infected unconsciously by mr rawat though. A large percentage of those who went on the eastern route completely reject the god concept. Buddhists, taoists - the shamanic route doesn't really have much truck with that either.” Nigel said: “Like Jim, I would be slightly inclined to take issue with Prof Wulff's assertion that 'Logically, I do not see how neurophysiology or neuropsychology can tell us anything about the reality or nature of the divine...' Agree with all of that. Except my ‘Rawat infection’ of course. I was posting a newspaper article I’d written. Because of the (admittedly often idiotic) journalistic principles of objectivity and ‘balance’, I’m unable in such pieces to give free rein to my own opinions. For the most part I just report what the sources say. Personally I have no belief in anything resembling a God - nor either in the ideas of self, transcendence, realisation, enlightenment, etc that arise from the (non-Hindu) eastern routes - except as abstractions of neurological activity: as are the various branches of modern psychology. I’m not against others ‘constructing’ things in religious ways of course, just as I’m not against the more modern models of psychology. Indeed when you take neurology to a certain level of organisation, psychology may be a better way of describing it. Like Nigel, I think we need to remember Occam’s Razor (a.k.a. the ‘principle of parsimony’), and go for the sparest, simplest explanation - the shortest route. I, too, was bothered by some of my interviewees’ assertions that their work ‘doesn’t disprove God’. (It doesn’t exactly bolster his case either - so why mention him?) My thoughts are best-expressed in my last email to Dr Wulff: “In the absence of evidence, why would we in the first place posit that something like God may exist, when we do not make such positings in relation to (for example) planets made of cheese?” He answered: “Undoubtedly the assurance that brain research doesn't invalidate religious convictions is to a degree a public-relations measure. Yet it is also a reasonable assertion, as I noted earlier. But such research also doesn't validate them as far as I can see. That we posit gods but not planets made of cheese doesn't seem so surprising, given that cheese planets would serve no immediate human needs whereas the gods work overtime in service to humankind. Furthermore, by conceiving of gods in human form we make them to some degree comprehensible and approachable for our special pleadings. Understandably, in the process we use templates developed in other spheres of our lives, including the family and the social or political unit. As various commentators have pointed out, some of the gestures that accompany prayer are akin to those that a child might use in reaching up to a parent for protection and consolation; others suggest secular forms of greeting or paying respect. If there is a 'God spot,' as Morse and perhaps others claim, the development of god images and of modes of relationship to divinity draws on many other areas of the brain--areas that are activated during ordinary secular activity.“ The ‘PR’ bit was honest - I pretty much have to do the same thing as a journalist. The ‘serving human needs’ bit is obviously true, but it wasn’t really my question. My question was not whether God/the gods have served human needs, but whether they exist. And clearly ‘neurotheology’ has largely demolished the most popular argument for their existence of the last 30 years - namely the experiential one. Anyway, that leads me to wonder if there are any sensible arguments for God’s existence left. I sure hope so, because I’d miss the old bastard if he left us altogether: the pro-con argument somehow keeps us on our toes. I’m actually very open to the possibility of God - just as I was in 1971 - tho he would want to be a subtler, better and more useful model than the God of the Flat Line invoked by Rawat and Sons. Anyone? 4. The Crusades: My posts have created lots of pain and drawn lots of anger from my premie friends. That’s pretty understandable: I was sorely vexed myself when I began learning uncomfortable things about Maharaji. The ostrich reflex is a strong one - I’ve seen it everywhere in recent weeks. Equally strong - tho less common - is the messenger-shooting reflex. I had to fight that one down for weeks when I began learning this stuff. Whilst a couple of premies have visited me to discuss the posts, express their hurt, and hear my side - for which I much admire them - there have also been some angry contacts condemning what I wrote. These people have acted, they said, out of the concern they have for Maharaji’s feelings. Not a single premie to date, however, has enquired after the welfare of the rape victims, or the blondes - or for that matter asked after me, in this tricky time of transition. I don’t resent this, because as a premie I was exactly the same when my friends left. But it’s an interesting phenomenon to note. Among the ‘displeased’ who’ve made contact, there have been four grounds of criticism: • Firstly, that my facts are wrong. No, they weren’t. What I wrote I obtained from sources (often more than one) I regard as very reliable, or from the evidence of my own eyes. On a couple of occasions I got smallish things wrong, or an earlier account was disputed - and I retracted or modified my statements, and/or apologised. The practice will continue. • Secondly, that stuff about M’s private life should not be aired publicly - simply because he is a human being who deserves his privacy. There is great value in this principle: I was certainly unhappy (for instance) when Mr L discussed my family here. However much of what I said about M was already public knowledge. (For example I don’t think Monica is any secret, to either premies or ex-premies.) Among those things which were not public knowledge, most of the matters I raised had at least the potential to prevent harm to other people. This is an important criterion which on many occasions over-rides the right to privacy. I’m sure earlier posters faced a similar ethical dilemma when writing about (for example) the blondes. No-one wants to be labelled a muck-raker. But behaviours such as this have direct effects: on the victims, of course - but also on those around M who are influenced by his jettisoning of human decency. (Amongst PAMs, this ‘ripple effect’ is very real.) The matters I raised (e.g. the great premie-mail scandal) may not be in the same league as the blondes, but I believe the same principle applies. My conscience is still wrestling with the fact that I briefly mentioned one of M’s daughters. Public interest - or nobody’s damn business? I’m leaning to the latter at present - the matter had little impact on anyone outside the family - and may duly apologise to the Rawats for that one, for what it’s worth at this late stage. But on most occasions, I think there are potential harms that can be prevented by these disclosures, and thus the publish-and-be-damned principle applies. Just as learning about the blondes - for instance - may down the track save some premie woman from being abused in the same way, learning that there are sexually abusive instructors may contribute to saving someone from them. NB: A premie friend contacted me in great annoyance about the instructor claims. I promised to clarify that it does not, so far as I know, apply to the majority of instructors overall. • Thirdly, that I’m on a crusade. Here I usually pointed out that I had written three posts (and maybe a dozen brief responses) on an Internet bulletin board. I’ve not emailed a single post to anyone else, so far as I remember. Nor - tho I’m aware it’s happened, and have no problem with it - have I requested my posts to be circulated or published elsewhere. That may make me an infidel, but not, I think, a crusader. • Fourthly, that I am a hypocrite - that is, that I too did bad things in my time as a premie. The ‘bad things’ are undeniable. I was an organiser for many years, a less than exemplary, and therefore hypocritical, ashram premie (for example as a community co-ordinator I neither practised nor enforced the celibacy rule), and a donor to both Maharaji and EV. I helped to convince quite a few people to join DLM. I bear considerable responsibility for many things, including sometimes not being considerate of the feelings of others, which in our volatile context may have been the worst thing of all. It would be far too convenient to blame Maharaji for all of this. Indeed I strongly dislike the tendency to blame Maharaji for everything. Devotion was a contract, and I was a willing, adult party to it. And organisationally, the Nuremberg defence holds even less water in my case than it did at Nuremberg. I should add, tho - and with any luck I’m speaking for all of us - that I did not announce before a million people at India Gate, Delhi, that I was the Lord of Creation, in the full expectation that I would be believed by at least 968,479 of them. Neither did I bill myself, before a crowd at Amaroo in 1994, as “the Perfect Master” of the age. And nor I did not confirm before 700 devoted Westerners (and 60,000 devoted Indians) in Delhi in November, 1997, that I was the incarnation of Lord Krishna - that is, the human manifestation of God. Indeed I did not even make such claims at parties, privately to my friends, or - to the best of my recollection - at the end of long evenings in public drinking establishments. I did not, finally, ask so much as a single person to surrender the reins of his - or her - life to me, and would no doubt have been jeered, roundly clobbered or locked away had I tried. Nor did I make such importunities in public places to complete strangers, as Maharaji has done - with a veritable phalanx of hand-picked, very persuasive and (significantly) older ‘saints’ to reinforce the suggestion, both on the spot and, over an entire decade, around the globe. Thus I humbly feel that, whilst we must scrupulously acknowledge our roles in perpetrating the abuses and the myths surrounding Maharaji, he was the ultimate generator of those abuses and myths, their most indefatigable sustainer, and indeed - to the tune of about fifty million US dollars - their chief beneficiary. Best wishes to all, John

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 13:05:01 (EST) From: Pullaver Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Re: JSCA Message:

Well reasoned and eloquent post as usual John. However, I do wonder about your following observation: My question was not whether God/the gods have served human needs, but whether they exist. And clearly ‘neurotheology’ has largely demolished the most popular argument for their existence of the last 30 years - namely the experiential one. Well perhaps it is your definition of 'god' that has to shift. Where else besides the brain does any experience originate within us? And because we are designed thusly can we actually 'know' anything that is not an experience? After all, our intellectual musings occur in the brain and are subject to the same mysteries and vagaries and confines of circuitry as any 'experience'. Because it has been shown how a certain part of the brain can become stimulated to create a 'blissful experience' does this somehow diminish the value or efficacy of the experience? No more than locating the pleasure centers in the brain involving sexual or gastronomic satisfaction. I mean because scientists can show what part of the brain is stimulated during sex and locate specific chemical and neurological activity does this mean that orgasms and gastronomic delights are unworthy pursuits or meaningless? More to the point, does explaining the mechanics of 'experience' remove it's desirability or suggest that it does not exist? It is certainly helpful in removing some of the magical, fairy-tale voodoo thinking on things but a rose is a rose is still a rose. Einstein understood in his mind a general model for energy and matter and time and space it didn't decrease one iota for him the essential mystery of life. Of course he never suggested that his unifying theory would bring about world peace, and an undying devotion towards him. However, let us be clear that scientific reasoning does not negate the value of an experience. The issue for me is whether marji, given his actions, track record and personal history, can stake a claim as a master or teacher or 'gatekeeper' somehow of an experience purported to bring us transcendent peace and fulfillment. Looking forward to your further posts, Pullaver

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:08:19 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Re: JSCA Message:

Another good one, John. You should be a writer. :) Re trolls, we had so many debates over the years about how open the forum should be. For the longest time, the largest consensus was that we wanted to demonstrate the greatest standard of free speech possible, both because we had a lot of questions, nothing to hide and an appetite for disclosure from any sincere source and also as an ongoing celebration of emancipation from Maharaji's form of thought -- and speech -- control. Plus the trolls proved how callously immoral and hypocritical Maharaji's fruit of the vine was. At first we were amazed they could be so un'godly'. Those issues are long settled now and their proof is trite. Barring the trolls like CW and SC is long overdue. There was another kind of premie irritant, though, even more common over time than outright trolls. I'm talking about silly premies with silly arguments who aren't erhe to disrupt so much as to sincerely, perhaps, argue their silly positions. All 'silly' because they never, as a rule, adhere to logic, common sense, etc. I'd be interested in your views on them. Regarding God, yes I think it's sad that scientists wimp out as they do on pinning the tail on the donkey, leaving it to so-called 'extremists' like Dawkins to do so. But that landscape's slowly changing, I believe. Hope so anyway. Too bad about your friends. Hopefully, when the dust all finally settles, you'll have newfound respect from a lot, if not the vast majority, of your former cult colleagues. It's hard for us longtime exes to really appreciate the loss but I know I feel it even with some of my old premie friends from years ago. It must be sad to lose current ones at the very time you've got something important to tell them if they wree only interested.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 10:33:54 (EST) From: Jim S. Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: John. Please Consider This... Message:

I think that your analysis of the 'troll' problem is excellent, and probably the best one I've heard so far of exactly what the people like CW do to the forum, and how that can subsequently affect people who are reading, especially for the first time. It does create havoc, and diminish the power of the forum, which at times can be very insightful, illuminating, liberating, and extremely funny. It's a shame to see so many of the good qualities get lost amongst squabbles and replies to trolls. My question to you is this: Would you consider writing something for the forum, possibly at the beginning of it, that describes what you have just said? Maybe some insight and some suggestions. Also, a weekly or monthly reminder from someone to keep the forum on track would be helpful. I think that less posts with more grit, is preferable to numerous posts, many of which are off topic or inconsequential or replies to people like CW. Thanks again for your insights. Any ideas on how to deal with the premies who are on the fence and/or leaving? Jim

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 07:50:52 (EST) From: Patrick W Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Re: JSCA Message:

Well-said John. You are obviously getting quite a bit of flak for expressing your feelings. As one who has long suffered similar frowns and ostrasization from former premie friends I would encourage you not to be too bothered or to feel that you have to overly appease them. In other words from my own experience I think you deserve some vocal support here. Take it from me, as time goes by you will be only glad that you had the motivation and boldness to be 'the only soldier in the parade marching in the opposite direction'. Interesting you've been chatting to fellow Brightonian Glen. I have had a few chats with him about my feelings and he, at least, is a polite person to disagree with! It is a shame that we, who dare to raise objections and criticisms, are generally so resented by our premie peers when in fact we're probably doing everyone including Maharaji himself a big favour by drawing attention to their faults. Speaking for myself, I confess that I resent that as a young man - who felt quite uncomfortable about various goings-on - my mild constructive criticisms were ignored in preference for the sheep-like preference to only heed His Master's Voice -despite the fact that he was making mistakes which even a simpleton like I could have helped him avoid. There was never any room for us in this thing. What was that all about? Who says we are incapable of contributing heartfelt and sensible suggestions. Maharaji seemed to be conversely dedicated to a relentless and puzzling Orwellian crusade to snuff out any individualismhowever helpful - all so that his control was predominant. Is this medieval or what?? Also his system demanded that he be given so much respect that premies had little left for each other. That was wrong too. The fact that he once sent out bad lieutenants, like unkind David Smith, by the score to oppress and humiliate us willing slaves is proof enough that his judgement was badly flawed. Certainly no loving God (let alone Master) could possibly have inflicted this kind of abuse on his trusting and hopeful flock. The simple truth is that some of us, who were brought up with some decent human values, would not have made the mistakes that Maharaji made even though we allowed him to become the focus of our 'inspiration' and basically let him get away with it. We should have trusted our own judgement. I suppose some did and thus excluded themselves from his 'heavenly host'. It is important to not bury our feelings but to speak out. Maharaji and premies apparently strongly resent and question our need to spoil their fun by publicly and ÔdramaticallyÕ raising criticism. Personally I can tolerate anyoneÕs beliefs and practices but frankly, because of my long experience as a premie being ignored, I feel I have a right to state my case here. Premies can ignore this forum - they don't have to read it. The fact is that they do - and they are concerned that aspirants are put off by what they read I suppose. That's some justice that they cannot so easily ignore us now we have a voice. My justification for writing here is that I remain committed as ever to finding truth and spreading a little light around the world- and so it is with particular vested interest that I seek to draw attention to the things I feel are at fault with Maharaji's 'mission'. I strongly feel that to debunk the parts of his work that can be de-bunked is a service to everyone. And strangely I am not doing this without some affection for the cult I was in or it's leader! Basically, if he is such a shining representative of wisdom, a Master of ....? Then he can stand it. In fact he will win through if he's on solid ground. I am not prepared to stand by and let things pass that I have major ethical objections to. For me it is a matter of conscience. I do not want to see something that I helped create (in a small but very substantial way) go careering off in a direction that I feel is unwholesome. I suppose I still feel that although M and premies see this whole thing as being preciously Maharaji's own personal business (premies merely being impotent beneficiaries) I disagree. I see the whole thing in a different perspective. I really don't see why one person should monopolise Truth. For example, is it not bizarre that in India M's brother Satpal has a huge following of premies and yet neither of these Master's recognise the legitimacy of the other? Where does that leave their students? If their leaders are blind they will lead their followers into the ditch. This simple fact tells me that we as individuals empower these Gurus and it is always our sincere intention and application that gets us personal results whether in meditation or in our actions. I suspect that the Knowledge does not belong - is not 'entrusted from above to' - to any one particular Master and that in future this will become clearer. At present it is perhaps our role to help mankind by identifying and sharing with others what we have learned about the way in which these so-called Masters operate. The good side of meditation and so-called Knowledge need not be lost either. This can become better understood. Devotion to one particular person however seems, even historically, a path fraught with dangers and potential misunderstandings. Devotion to God is a nice ideal, which seems to get corrupted and compromised in practice -especially since there seem to be rather a lot of different ones. I believe that the societies of our world need education, and equality - not superior ÔspiritualÕ leaders (businessmen) who apparently only serve to convince and unite their own followers - thus being effectively divisive of mankind. Various premies have, in their arguments to invalidate our right to criticise M, compared him to a businessman running his own business. Surely such stuff as God and Truth is not a business to be run by some man. I think it would be good if we could all take on the responsibility for our relationship with our Creator and not habitually enthrone some poor Guru to be our God only to tear him down when he shows himself to be embarrassingly human.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 09:19:31 (EST) From: Voyeur Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: Re: JSCA Message:

'There was never any room for us in this thing. What was that all about?' just about sums up what I feel at this point after 12 years of daily involvement from 1972 and intermittent spasms after that. I think it deserves further attention because at this time it looks as if GMs financial and hedonistic direction was there virtually from day 1, and there was a conspiracy by those on the inside to deceive those on the outside. As you say 'what was that all about?' - certainly not the path to truth.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:23:28 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Another wonderful post, John Message:

Many thanks. I agree so much with everything that you said that I have nothing to add.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:06:26 (EST) From: Channeling George Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Somewhere Message:

Beyond all Reason, far from the Cyberspace, lies a Valley deep with Wisdom and a Mountain High with Grace. Stop before you try to IMAGINE (this one's for John, a slave to Woman who made an Ass of himself), you can never comprehend, the Peace & Glory deep Inside, without Beginning and No End. We love Guru Maharaj Ji, know His Word is Strong and True, Be Grateful for His Perfect Knowledge, Peace and Bliss is Satguru. Blessings to all Premies, My Compassion for all Ex-Premies. P.S. His Leela has just begin! P.P.S Dogs begin to Bark, Hounds begin to Howl...

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:47:33 (EST) From: channelling Morrison Email: None To: Channeling George Subject: the end Message:

this is the end beautiful friend this is the end my only friend, the end of all elaborate plans, the end of everything that stands, the end no safety or surprise, the end I'll never look into your eyes again can you picture what will be? so limitless and free? desperately in need of some stranger's hand in a desperate land lost in a [Roman/roamin] wilderness of pain and all the children are insane all the children are insane waiting for the summer rain, yeah there's danger on the edge of town ride the king's highway weird scenes inside the goldmine ride the highway west, baby ride the snake ride the snake to the lake the ancient lake, baby the snake he's long seven miles ride the snake he's old and his skin is cold the west is the best the west is the best get here--and we'll do the rest the blue bus is calling us the blue bus is calling us Driver, where're you taking us? the killer awoke before dawn he put his boots on he took a face from the ancient gallery and he walked on down the hall and he went into the room where his sister lived and then he paid a visit to his brother and then he he walked on down the hall and he came to a door and he looked inside 'Father?' 'yes, son' 'I want to kill you'. Mother? I want to.... @#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@ yeah come on, yeah come on baby, take a chance with us-- come on, baby, take a chance with us-- come on baby, take a chance with us, and meet me at the back of the blue bus tonight tomorrow night, blue bus, tonight-- blue bus? come on, yeah.... this is the end beautiful friend this is the end my only friend, the end it hurts to set you free, but you'll never follow me the end of laughter and soft lies... the end of nights we tried to die.... this is the ennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:20:07 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Channeling George Subject: Here you go Message:

Another shining and articulate example of the lords influence and wisdom. This poor misguided soul creates as valid an argument in favor of running like hell as fast as you can away from m and the cult as I have ever seen. Keep it up Pal, you are presenting a valiant case for our side

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:43:02 (EST) From: So why have over 90 per cent Email: None To: Channeling George Subject: of Maharaji's students Message:

have left him? What enquiries have you made about the allegations against one of Maharaji's most senior staff raped and abused children and the allegation tha Maharaji et al have kept silent all this time?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:58:55 (EST) From: and the other 10% are devoid Email: None To: So why have over 90 per cent Subject: of any humanness (NT) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:30:00 (EST) From: Summary of CG's post Email: None To: Channeling George Subject: We love Guru Maharaj Ji [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:16:23 (EST) From: Barbara Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Re: JSCA Message:

... Glen then intervened on David’s behalf, and immediately raised the possibility of an apology for the personal attacks. However, Glen said it could not be made on the forum, because that would dignify the forum in a way it didn’t merit. If I understand this correctly, David Lovejoy found that the forum possessed the merit for his large emotional bowel movement, but does not think the forum merits the dignity of his picking up after himself. I think this specious objection has more to do with David Lovejoy's abhorrence of public humiliation (which I understand) and his public acknowledgment of his poor judgment and bad taste, which was so vividly displayed in living technicolor. And the beat goes on....

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:15:54 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Barbara Subject: JSCA Message:

All these honcho-pam-premies care is that their names do no appear here for fear of angering their lord. They are a spoilt load of pups. As John M said not one of his premie friends have enquired about those that were raped. Reards Jethro

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:44:03 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: John Macgregor Subject: Another Gem, Thanks John [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:01:09 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: All Subject: Whatever happened to shp, Sandy? Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:19:38 (EST) From: Stonor Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Last I heard, he's fine ... Message:

How are you, my favourite Diamond Dog? ;) I've been meaning to email him back - he seems pretty busy with his new job. I sent him my copy of the National Geographic issue that had a 2-page photo spread on The Farm a while back. His email address is still good, so if you have it, why don't you ask him how he's doing yourself? Anna

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:28:59 (EST) From: McDuck Email: None To: All Subject: Question to Gerry Message:

At what stage do 'internecine fights' become locked? I just counted 51 posts on the Jim 'apology' thread below.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:07:05 (EST) From: such Email: banana@31_flavors.com To: McDuck Subject: when Message:

At what stage do 'internecine fights' become locked? I just counted 51 posts on the Jim 'apology' thread below. --- when do they become locked up? ...uh, maybe when they do 69. but that's just taster's choice, of course -- referee's call... different strokes for different folks. LOL

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:01:20 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: McDuck Subject: reply to McDuck Message:

Good question. That one kinda snuck up on me. See, I thought Jim was sincere in his apology and was ending this ah, discussion. Now I feel suckerpunched.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:13:12 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: reply to Gerry Message:

Although the post is sarcastic, Katie did respond to it. Jim, acknowledged her post right away and convincingly told her he wanted to be civil. If you read the posts to Jim last night, you would have understood why he was exhausted. So, that sarcasm was directed more to the ones defending Katie and what they had to say rather than her. Let's not make a big deal about it. The post from Katie was necessary and no harm has come from that, IMO. Jim is showing that he wants to communicate w/Katie but he is being wrongly pigeon-holed by some of the exes. What do you say?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:31:25 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Deborah Subject: I say Jim extended an olive branch Message:

and it seemed sincere to me. But is Jims level of sincerity here the big issue, why even question it, the action alone speaks volumes. What baffles me is all of the interpretations of Jim's motives, and there seems to be no end to it. I say last night's gesture in and of itself presented a good opportunity to put this dispute to bed. The ball was in play, the action was initiated, I say it could have been more graciously returned and accepted by Katie and others as well. I had a disagreement with Jim last year, and we managed to come to amicable terms, we worked it out, apologies were accepted and we got on with the more important issues at hand dealing with the cult. The same could happen here as well, you probably know Jim as well or better than anyone here Deborah. I take you on your word that he made an honest effort to communicate and let bygones be bygones in this matter.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:07:39 (EST) From: McDuck Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: reply to McDuck Message:

Thanks, Gerry, I guess the answer is when the FA cottons on to it. For my personal taste, I'd rather read about Joe's survey or the firsthand account of the SF appointment. Each to his/her own. PS Like the name of your browser type.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:07:26 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: reply to McDuck Message:

Gerry, There was no reason to think my 'apology' was sincere. You must not have read it. But what would truly suck, IMO, would be to cut off the thread now. I've asked Katie, quite politely I think, a few things that, again IMO, could bear some fruitful and helpful discussion. This is not a case where a bunch of people are just squared off flaming each other. There's a lot of content in them there hills. At least I think so. Sure, not everyone does -- but some do.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:14:10 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: reply to McDuck Message:

Jim, it was the first thing I read this morning. I even checked the IP (which I rarely do,) to see if it was really you or someone pretending to be you. It wasn't until someone stated it was sarcasm and I gave it a second read that it became clear it WAS youand it was sarcasm. Now get this: Bjorn called the McCleary police on me, so he says. Not that anyone contacted me, I'm sure they all thought he was a nutter, but I believe he did it because he got the name of the Chief right. Can I sue him for anything?

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:27:45 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: gerry Subject: You've got to be kidding! Message:

Bjorn did that? What a hoot! What'd the cop say? I'm just driving up to pick up a vid on the way to Laur's. Call me, I'm call forwarded. This is hilarious (250) 360-1040

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:25:36 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: No, seriously... Message:

It appears that Bjorn did indeed call the cops. What a dufus! I'll bet they all had a good laugh over it, too. Of course, I'll never hear about it unless I go down and ask. Which I will. I'll talk to the chief tomorrow and find out the details. Then I'll let you know.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:21:54 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry, that stinks Message:

That person whose name I cannot bring myself to mention is a nut. Don't forget, if you need any help (like testifying that you don't spend the whole day in a hot tub) just yell.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:30:56 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Gerry, that stinks Message:

That guy is crazy! I already warned my bishop that he might get a letter from some nut in Norway. My bishop told me not to worry and asked what he could do to help. Bjørn really has no idea of how crazy he comes off; that must be why people all over the world misunderstand him.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:44:13 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: All Subject: worldwidelinkup.da.ru Message:

Just in case you want a shortcut to the contact ads pages, just type worldwidelinkup.da.ru into your browser slot and hit enter. You'll be there in a flash. Also either of these will get you there: http://www.worldwidelinkup.da.ru www.worldwidelinkup.da.ru but the simple worldwidelinkup.da.ru is all you need.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:07:15 (EST) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: All Subject: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey Message:

When we first got started with this website and Forum, in 1997, all the premies, and all the stuff coming out of the cult said that things had changed, that Maharaji was a 'master' the premies were 'students' and all the 'Lord' stuff was gone. Well, either that was a complete lie, or things have really changed. Now we are hearing, for example, at the 'event' in San Francisco last week that 'students' from the audience openly declared M as 'the Lord' and he did NOT disagree with them. Plus, he's back giving darshan, they are singing Arti, and even the organizations, the pretense that M didn't have final say about everything anyway, are gone. I clearly considered Maharaji 'the Lord' while I was a premie until 1983. My question is, for those who remained in the cult longer, what did you think? Was he the 'Lord' to you, but you just didn't articulate that? Did you know any 'students' who talked about M NOT being the 'Lord?' And now that apparently premies CAN articulate it, even to M himself, do you think that changes anything? Do you think any premies are turned off by that? Clarely 'Hank' was, and so was the person I talked to who attended the SF event and gave me the summary. But what about other premies? Do you think this might mean a smaller, but more fanatically dedicated group of premies remaining, and that's what M really wants? More important, I'm interested in people who left the cult within the past few years and how you saw M. Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 01:32:55 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey Message:

I became an ex-premie sometime in 1997. I went into the ashram in 1975 because I believed him to be the Satguru, at that time I undrestood 'Satguru'to be the physical manisfestation of god on earth and it was clear to me that prempal was that person. I was initially convinced that the whole world would be liberated 'very soon'. (In fact soon after I got kayed, I met up with my teenage friend David Passes, who had the honour of being one of the first western devotees, and David told me that 'it would all be over by 1980' and everyone would know who is god. I also had reinforcement from people like Ron Geaves who told me all these wonderful stories of devotion(like when m broke Gary's nose). I just loved those stories. (BTW did you know that m was driving from the age of 11. I asked how come he didn't get inro trouble with the police,I was told he made the chief of police in Deradune his devotee). I took the ashram very seriously. maharaji made it clear to us that DLM/Ev did represent him, so that even if we were told to do something that felt wrong to us,we should regard it as His Agya,whether the direction came from house mother/father/coordinator or instructor. Our lives were no longer our own. To cut several years out here, I was thrown out of the ashram in about 1980. I was one of several thrown out by Dick Cooper, maharaji's emmissary to throw out the ashramees.(Dick, remember telling me this when I came to visit you in Corsica St ashram in London?). Dick spoke in that same vibe as Glen Whittaker, you know the one I mean, the vibe says 'Well, maharaji told me!!!,,,so I am just obeying orders(I mean agya)'. How could a premie argue with that. I suppose I really deserved being thrown out onto the street. I'm sure that by doing propagation and satsang, at least 4 hours med a day,and giving all the money I earned wasn't enough. Anyway, this didn't deter my belief. This had to have been a test from Him. Although I was deeply hurt and confused by this, I knew that this was only my ego and I should fight this by doing more satang service meditation and darshan. I did various things after this. I spent nearly a year in India and Malaysia doing propagation with the Malaysian premies(and looking after Newton Gay for a while). I returned to the UK in the early 80s only to find premie behavoiur and politics unbearable. Even then EV was treating people like garbage.....but of course I knew that it wasn't m's fault. He only loved all His premies, even thoug He used to tell the ashramees that onlt they have trully given their lives. I remember him saying that if He wasn't GMJ,he wouldlive in the ashram.(bet you couldn't do it prempal!) (I think I'm digressing from your question) When I was told to burn all the old video and publications,I just couldn't do it. But I knew it wasn't m. When I met an aspirant in 1991, who told me that all that 'Indioan stuff' about m being LOTU never happened, I knew that it wasn't m. it was probably some manmut. So it was lucky that I kept 'Sartguru has come' and showed this aspirant. During the 90s I felt more and more isolated. We werenot allowed to talk about k(the most precious thing in my life). The local progams became video events where we had to spend hours looking at pictures om m and listening to him. Of course I knew that it was only my mind beginning to think I just might be in a cult. When m ignored all my letters for over 10 years, I knew he was testing me. I then realise that I was becoming a rotten vegetable because I didn't want to go to these programs anymore...but of course Iknew it was only my mind. Then one day, I went to listen to a video called 'Listen to you'. It was ll about listening to yourself...nothing about 'The Master' etc. So I daringly tried it, and one day I found myself telling someone not to waste time going to see m. When I told them I 'experienced satsang'. So I tried vocalising my other 'doubts' and discovered that when I said what 'my mind' thought and felt I was 'in satsang'. I finally accepted I had been conned. I then found the ex-premie forum and realised that I was not the only one to be spiritually raped. It's been a long journey home. Take care Jethro PS During all these years I seriously considered suicide several times.Bole Shri Me that I didn't beacuse I have discovered that Life can really be Great

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:45:53 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Very Powerful -- Everyone Read!!! Message:

Jethro, Great story and so much of it sounds like my own, at least as far as what I believed, and how after we were conned by M, we internalized it, and conned ourselves. Why did Cooper kick you out of the ashram? It sounds like the same ashram inquisition that happened in the States. In the West it was performed by David Smith and I think he was the DLM King of England in 1980 so that was probably part of his despotic rule. I also considered suicide quite a bit around the end of 1980. I think the cult had just caused me to repress to much, and it was so clear Maharaji didn't give a damn about me or anybody else who was dedicating to him. Thanks so much for that powerful post. Joe

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:19:20 (EST) From: Eddie Fisher Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Thanks Jethro Message:

now why couldn't I have said that all that time ago. Have a good life Jethro. I'm finally going to sleep peacefully. Eddie

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:38:22 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Jethro, thank you for that. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:09:03 (EST) From: Jim S. Email: None To: Joe Subject: It's a good question, Joe, because Message:

it really goes to the heart of the matter in many ways. M is presented these days as some sort of undefined 'master'....sort of a special teacher, but a regular guy as well....but also some sort of possibly divine person by most of the premies....of course that's not divulged to the aspirants or newcomers....I guess at some point they find out about darshan and arti in India and amaroo....I'm not sure what happens then-I guess they accept it, or freak out and split pretty quickly... I know premies who after 30 years of participation, still do not know if they ultimately believe in Jesus or maharaji.....some of them kind of 'split the difference', or 'hedge their bets' by believing in both of them, and hoping they know which one to focus on when they die...sounds funny, but it's true for many premies.... This really is an important point....it's not any different than the moonies with their 'you don't feed steak to a baby' philosophy....like reverend moon, m is prevented as a powerful, but friendly teacher who can help you in your life.....premies believe he is much more than that, and because of that they refuse to judge him by any of the same standards that they would apply to a 'regular person'.... I think this is the main reason that m gets a free pass on so much of his behaviour from the premies.....as one friend confided to me recently: 'I give money to m, because he may be who he is'....as bizarre as this may seem, especially to someone who has never been involved in m's world, this is a very real factor in the way that premies relate to m......no judgement or questioning of the master, because he may be who he may be.....money is given, just in case he is who he might be.....sounds strange, and it is strange, but it is a very real factor in the mindset of many premies, especially the old timers...

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:45:08 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim S. Subject: money is given, just in case he is God. Yes. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:49:51 (EST) From: Inside Edition Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey Message:

I was looking for the Lord in the early 70's. Premies told me they had found the Lord, and the Lord had come for me too. Mahatma Rajeshwar told me that the Lord of the Universe would show me God. That's what I was looking for and that's what they sold me. And I bought it, to the point of dedicating my life to the Lord. When I saw EPO, it confirmed many things I had seen, heard and felt. It was most helpful to see that others had successfully left the Lord and hadn't been blown into a million little pieces. To this day, the entire Malibu Mob really and truly beleive that they are serving the Lord.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:58:35 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Inside Edition Subject: The Malibu Mob Message:

Thanks, inside. Who is in the Malibu Mob? I have heard of this, and I have some ideas. I think Jean-Marie Bonthos is one. Is David Andersen part of that group? He implies that he spends time around M and surely sees M as God or greater. Who else? After reading Alan Roettinger's sickening entry on Enjoyinglife about 'the turgid seas of his mind' or something equally inane, I think he must be part of it. Either that, or he has no shame nor writing skills whatsoever and has no qualms about looking ridiculous.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:21:16 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Joe Subject: I downplayed it , but I believed it Message:

As you know from my posts appearance here within the last year, I fall within the time guidelines for your question Joe. When I first came into the cult in 72 that was the big news, The Lord is on this planet in human form. I think that initial indoctrination ran deep within me. Even though those claims were supposedly revised by the organization over the years, I was hooked on the lord in human form so deeply that I could not or did not want to fully give it up. I went along with the revision and played the role of good premie, publicly scoffing at the notion of m as lord when it came up. Usually from an impassioned bongo premie outburst at a coomunity meeting or event or in dealing with new aspirant inquiries, but deep down inside I felt that it was true. There were attempts made to modify this belief structure both by myself personally and by corporate directives referring to M as master, teacher, speaker etc. But the Lord concept was still the underlying theme that ran through both myself and the old school premies that I associated with. The way I handled it in the face of new inquiry was to downplay the issue. If asked the question directly I would simply refer to the knowledge as something that was passed along by a lineage of masters that included Jesus, Budda, Mohammed, Krishna etc. I was just sure that anyone who looked into this thing would come to the conclusion for themselves that these men were all refered to as lords so go figure it out, wink, wink. I justified these actions because I felt that I was following the argya of M and it must be for the good of the order for these folks to find out later what is really going on. I did not want to alienate or put off anyone by coming on too strong, as I recalled the often times disasterous unbridled attempts in the 70's to shout it from the rooftops that the lord is on this planet. So I complied, I went along, I played the game and only in the company of other sealed mouth premies would I express my innermost belief that was always supported by them too that yes, m was lord and weren't we lucky to know that. I now consider myself luckier still to have escaped the clutches and concepts of the cult and to be able to rationally put my beliefs in order today. Thanks to EPO and the forum contributors that is.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:15:46 (EST) From: such Email: None To: Joe Subject: oh, da Lord [premies winking] Message:

ssshhh - there's an aspirant in the room...

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:27:45 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Joe Subject: You left in '83 Joe.... Message:

....that was when he closed the ashrams & abolished satsang,or maybe just before. That time coincided for me with meeting the girl (non-premie)who became my wife. I knew I had a spiritual duty to turn her on to GMJ but could never find the right moment(her being an atheist). That caused me many a quiet freakout. Then O blissful day, word comes through that the Lord doesn't need our pitiful efforts in that direction anymore. He's going to do it all by himself. We can just sit back , relax, & keep in touch (which I took to mean,go to events when possible). For anyone like me, & I suspect that's many,the conditioning of the 1st half of the Divine Reign, (72-84), informed the 2nd half,(84-now). If you weren't in an ashram, the end of all that was a kind of liberation,& lots of premies weren't in. I just kept on believing that he was the lord without subjecting my belief to any kind of rational analysis.Indeed I didn't have to, because I hadn't been handed a turd on a plate,quite the opposite,the corsets were off & yippi ai ay. I missed many of the 'opportunities to keep in touch'thereafter, due to circumstances, but didn't feel guilty ,not like the way I'd felt guilty for missing satsang or not being sufficiently devoted during the 1st phase. That was because the Lord had taken the load offa my shoulders. I never told anyone about M during the 2nd phase not even my wife. I took her to see him in Milan in 85 as a surprise & she hated it so much we never talked about it again. I kept on with the med & the very occasional video & went to see him when I could. She spent money on things I had no interest in, & I spent it on mine, which was being at the lotus feet,& as there was enough to accommodate both our interests..no problemo.I only rarely discussed him with old premie friends,but when we did he was the superior power in person, not a doubt. The 'teacher'thing was just his quirky sense of humour for me,of course he was the Lord still,just lightening up even more the older he got. I'd say that lots would listen to him saying he wasn't the lord, & just laugh along with the in joke,but if he ever pushes the point he's fucked, bums on seats wise. Trying to work out what he wants(apart from being a parvenue in tinseltown)is beyond me. The only thing that can crack the premie mindset that Prem Pal Singh Rawat is the incarnation of god,apart from beingrsonally fucked over by him or his organisation, is information about what he is really like,what he has done in the past. This info is only available on EPO. For those who have no computer,discouraged by the master anyway,lots f people will keep on with the belief that the lord has come.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:44:08 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: PatD Subject: Question, Pat. Message:

It seems to me that the vast majority of the people still following M are holdovers from the 70s, who probably thought the way you did: No matter how he was presented, M was the Lord (wink, wink). But I think there might be some people who received knowledge in the 90s who don't see him that way. For example, one person who has posted here, TD, received knowledge in 1995 and became an ex because, partly, she found out about the whole Lord of the Universe period, of which she had never been told. So, I guess my question is this: If what the person who went to the San Francisco 'appointment event' said was true, that most of the people who spoke with M declared him 'the Lord' and slobbered all over him with fawning worship, and since it also appears M was pretty direct about that in what HE said, do you think that kind of 'event' would freak out the more secular, 90s premies, if indeed there are any? The reason I say this is because I have heard from a couple of people that even THEY were kind of freaked by the devotion level of that 'event' even though they were premies from the 70s, but had adjusted their thinking to the 90s presentation. Do you think it might drive some people away?

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:11:32 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Question, Pat. Message:

It seems to me that the vast majority of the people still following M are holdovers from the 70s, I only know 2 people who received k in the 2nd phase. One is married to an old friend who was WPC & is still a premie. We don't see each other that often, & there's too much other stuff to talk about when we do. What his wife feels about her relationship with the 'teacher' I haven't a clue. The other is a woman with psychiatric problems who I had a one off conversation with after I'd become an ex. She seemed pretty besotted to me in the grand old style,going to Amaroo & all that,but I didn't want to press the point, especially as she had obviously improved headwise from the only other time I'd met her. The ghost premies from the 90's. Unless some of them explain their perceptions,we'll never know. I can't imagine that any punter who might be interested in a bit of stress relief, wouldn't run a mile on finding out about hte baggage train that GMJ has trailing behind him. Of course finding out has never been encouraged. If the darshan business is back up & running, I suspect that those driven away by that side of things will be in the minority. If Rawat needs the fix of adulation, then I don't suppose he cares too much whether the adorers got hooked in '71 or '81 or'91. As you say, most got the bug in the ,70's.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:02:16 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Joe Subject: Well, Joe - several questions. Message:

You asked : ''If what the person who went to the San Francisco 'appointment event' said was true, that most of the people who spoke with M declared him 'the Lord' and slobbered all over him with fawning worship, and since it also appears M was pretty direct about that in what HE said, do you think that kind of 'event' would freak out the more secular, 90s premies, if indeed there are any?'' I thought I read that one woman talked to M and addressed him as Lord (that may well have been someone like Doris Alien;) and she would have been an embarassment to the thoroughly revised church-ladies IF the program had been for non-premies too. But, given that it was a private premies-only affair and that they could really let their hair down, I imagine that it brought secret smiles to many faces and they wished that they could be so gushing and open and child-like with the love for M. After that LB event, Chuck was completely disgusted because of the instrumental arti and devotion etc. He had never seen that as we had dropped out for so many years and all he saw was videos of the ''teacher'' and a few events with a very buttoned-down Rawat. 80s and 90s premies may very well leave if the overt devotion increases but most of them left already anyway. There was no community for them to belong to and they simply drifted away. Rawat has probably figured that out and is holding onto the old-timers now.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:23:34 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: PatC Subject: OOps wrong Pat. Oh well... [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:57:05 (EST) From: Jerry Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey Message:

Joe, In 1985, I went to a program at Lincoln Center in New York where an aspirant stood up during question and answer session and told Maharaji that he was refused Knowledge because he couldn't say that M was the Lord. Maharaji said the 'next time somebody asks you that question you tell him no, and if he asks you who told you that, you tell him I did'. It was a powerful moment. The cat was really let out of the bag. Maharaji was denying divinity. To me it wasn't a contradiction to things he'd said before because I'd never heard him say he WAS the Lord. To me he was just laying to rest all the rumours premies were spreading that he was, and it was about time is what I felt. Before that night, I didn't know what to believe about Maharaji. From that night forward I just treated him as a prophet, a messenger, like Mohammed, the one who speaks for God but is not God, himself. Like the Muslims say, 'There is no God but God' (and that includes his prophets). That's why I've always felt conflict over the arguments between premies and exes whether or not Maharaji ever claimed he was God. I'd never heard him say he was. Sure, on this website I read all the quotes where it certainly looks like he said he was God, but I'd never heard it in person, so it just didn't register as powerfully as that moment in Lincoln Center when he said he wasn't.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:05:54 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jerry Subject: The Name is Guru Maharaji Ji... Message:

And the person on the stage is Guru Maharaji Ji. When he says: 'Pray to Guru Maharaji Ji,' who do you think he is talking about? Anyway, I've heard him, and it was at a Philly ''Festival.'' He spoke in the first person about himself being the Lord. I am Everything, he said. I am Everything. And much, much more. What more, I ask, proof, do you need? I heard it with my own ears. And if I have the energy I will look it up in my catalogue of tapes and transcribe it for any of you who doubt he ever said it directly. I heard it. Enough Said.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:38:24 (EST) From: Jerry Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: and Guruing is my game Message:

Cynthia, No offense, but few of today's premies care what you heard him say. They might not doubt you, but it just doesn't register. It's like hearing it through a filter, or seeing it through a bubble, the bubble of their own belief system. You may have indeed heard Maharaji say that he was the Lord, but that doesn't mean anything unless it harmonizes with what THEY believe. You might think it should rock their world, but it doesn't. I've been watching this phenomenon for over 3 years now. If you want to get a premie to reevaluate his devotion to Maharaji, arguing with him whether or not he said he was God ain't going to do it. I've seen the Jagdeo scandal rock some peoples' faith to their shoes, and even the EV faq sheets have sickened some, but I've never seen arguments that Maharaji once said he was God rattle a single cage. Maybe that's because deep down they believe he is, even as they argue he's not.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:50:01 (EST) From: Timmi Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey Message:

Not sure I'm qualified to answer this never having a premie. I have a friend who received knowledge in 1972. I have heard him myself, in the past few months, refer to rawat as his ''Creator''. He believes it and there is no room in his head for anything else. Unimaginable.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:00:38 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Joe Subject: I'm confused about this Message:

I'm pretty sure still saw him as the Lord but I got used to the PR image for newcomers (not that I did any propagation) which was that hearing him was the first step to salvation. I can't remember thinking too deeply about the issue after that.Ffor myself, even though I was doing 'worldly' things, I still had in my mind the idea that I should be dedicating my life to him more than I am doing, and that one day I would. John.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:45:37 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey Message:

I'm ashamed to say, Joe, that this time last year I was still saying to Chuck and Andy that he was the Lord God Almighty in human form. I felt that because of the way that I understood K at that time. I had powerful experiences from K and thought that it was god in us and that Rawat had revealed that and was therefore greater than god. Thank goodness Chuck and Andy were kind and tolerant to me because neither of them ever believed that. They just put it down to me being an old hippy-premie. Well, neither of them had taken as much LSD as me or had as much darshan juju either. As much as the old-time premies button their lips when it comes to who or what Rawat is, I believe that most of them still think like I did. At the last program that I went to in LB I met up with an old premie friend from the UK. As she and I were walking out of the event I said to her: ''Well, I don't care what anyone else thinks but I still think he's the Lord of the Universe.'' She answered: ''Well, of course he is.'' Unfortunately she still thinks like that.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:20:34 (EST) From: Peg Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey Message:

Oh how sad for me! I thought the day would come when he would once again dance and let us kiss his feet. Now it has come and I am no longer able to appreciate it. I thought he was still lord of the universe or something like that. Just playing it cool to give the less spiritual masses a chance to get to know him. Actually I never really thought about who he was very deeply, I just carried on with the same relationship I'd had in the 70's but stopped talking about it even to other premies except in a covert way, saying adoring things and wishing he would still..... Peg

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:08:29 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Maharaji as The Lord -- A Survey Message:

Hi Joe, I was away from the ''World of Maharaji'' for sixteen years and during the whole time I still believed he was the Lord of the Universe. It wasn't until I got online and read EPO that I realized that the doubts I had were true. Especially after reading about Jagdeo. Especially after spending so much $$ on stupid videos and not getting any answers about what the f**k was going on in M's world (even from old time premies who also still believed he was still the lord). That was my final drip. So, for close to 25 years, I did believe he was Lord. Now? A conman, a fraud, a thief of hearts and lives. Btw, is this a real survey? :) Love, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:10:55 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: P.S. Joe...where the tape?? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:53:19 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Thanks for reminding me... Message:

I'll send it ASAP.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:00:08 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, I'll watch for it... [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:04:51 (EST) From: Patrick W Email: None To: All Subject: Some answers for Klaus Webber Message:

Self-proclaimed ÔMajor DonorÕ and personal friend of Maharaji, Klaus Webber wrote below: I just went to a program too Bill and I can assure you it has nothing to do with cult. It is about our own journey and our attitude to that. He is a wise speaker and fills the heart with love and hope. No way I'm afraid Bill that I can describe such thing to you! But you will have no very good word to tell your friend who may be inspired now. Mind and heart can never talk like that. I guess I introduce myself if not rude. My name is Klaus Rene Webber, I am an international business man who owns and runs an internet company based in Bonn. I travel often to see M and am a major donor (so I guess not too popular here!) but have other interest in shipping and motor sport. I count Maharaji as a friend and we hang out together when he is in Europe. I am curious as to why he is attacked by those here. Klaus, I imagine that you were not around during the seventies when Maharaji demanded total surrender from his earnest young followers - which meant to anyone who was listening closely and sincerely to his advice, that they should give up their life to him and move into one of his special 'shelter' houses dotted around the world called 'Ashrams' - for life - For EVER in fact. That was the deal. Did you do that?? Nowadays, as you can see, there is a fair amount of bitterness that Maharaji put us through this humiliating and frightening charade (I was one of those people who 'dedicated my life') and despite all our experiences of 'love and hope' we feel that he effectively abused us when he 'about-turnedÕ and turfed us out onto the street to get our lives together for ourselves without any help from him whatsoever. Basically we don't think that he actually cares or has a conscience about this. Maybe you just haven't asked your friend about his past - Am I right? Anyway - why should you care? Unless of course you have ETHICS or even EMPATHY for others (those good old human virtues that seem so conspicuously rare amongst remaining self-centred followers of the Master.) Most of us had given up careers, jobs, and contact with our families on his 'order' (yes the Hindi word Maharaji frequently used to pressurise us into doing what he wanted was 'Agya' which translates literally as the ' Master's Order') and spent literally the best years of our lives as celibate monks - despite often having had lots of potential to get on in the world. Personally I resent the fact that your friend Maharaji intimidated us - used his supposed 'authority' in a bullying way, to get me and others into suffering this misery at a time when we should have been having fun and carving out careers for ourselves - not for him! This amounts to an abuse of trust to some of us who gave him the trust that he clearly demanded. You can imagine how hard it was to get back onto one's own feet both financially and mentally after being out of the 'worldly' loop for years on end - as we indeed had been. Worse, it is galling to see how Maharaji continues to live in growing splendour - partly because of the huge sacrifices we made in our twenties - but never acknowledges or apologises for the upset that his former highly demanding and authoritative ways caused - let alone thank us for our time spent serving him. No way could he be said to have shown any real concern for those people who gave up everything to serve him and who often still struggle to make ends meet as a result. Your comment to Bill: 'he is a wise speaker and fills the heart with love and hope. No way I'm afraid Bill that I can describe such thing to you!' ...is of course an unkind and unfair slight towards our Bill, who almost undoubtedly knows far more about service, sacrifice and sincerity than you ever have, or will - with your great donations. Remember he lived through times when premies made real sacrifices. To cut a long story short, the flak Maharaji attracts here and elsewhere, is because he has shown himself to be in reality, an arrogant, uncaring man who has hurt people along the way - and who has chosen to do nothing but distance himself from those sincere people who have dared to raise objections. If you choose to believe that he is innocent of any of the accusations then take a good look at the facts - they speak for themselves. people are not making all this up for fun. People are hurt. It's your choice to continue to lend support to someone who, although he may have something to offer, has also walked all over people in a very arrogant and unacceptably abusive way - and can afford to live in denial about it. I feel that to ignore this is irresponsible and wrong.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:28:01 (EST) From: Klaus Webber Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: Sorry to disprove your considered replyky Message:

Patrick but I also have seen all (at least from my perspective). I first met M in Premnagar 1972 and helped organise the first European fesrival in the Swiss Alps and then to start the Heidelburg ashram, also Edinburgh and Frankfurt. have lived in many countries since and seen as much idiocy as inspiration within the confines of 'organisation'. I regret to inform you that like many here you are basing your strong emotionally based opinion on some very flimsy assumptions. My donations are my busininess. When I had no money I gave no money, it's all relative (to everyone except those who are always whining about money because they don't have enough of it).

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 09:47:19 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Klaus Webber Subject: Is this guy for real or an imposter? Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:25:40 (EST) From: Patrick W Email: None To: Klaus Webber Subject: to Klaus- contin. Message:

Klaus Webber wrote: Sorry to disprove your considered reply Patrick but I also have seen all (at least from my perspective). I first met M in Premnagar 1972 and helped organise the first European fesrival in the Swiss Alps and then to start the Heidelburg ashram, also Edinburgh and Frankfurt. have lived in many countries since and seen as much idiocy as inspiration within the confines of 'organisation'. I regret to inform you that like many here you are basing your strong emotionally based opinion on some very flimsy assumptions. My donations are my busininess. When I had no money I gave no money, it's all relative (to everyone except those who are always whining about money because they don't have enough of it). Klaus I apologise for being mistaken about your history when I said: I imagine that you were not around during the seventies when Maharaji demanded total surrender from his earnest young followers Not everyone who lived through those times has had the same experiences or come to the same conclusion. However I still find it astonishing to see how people like yourself, who saw all that heavy stuff go on in the past, could possibly come out with suff like: I am curious as to why he is attacked by those here. To me that sounds like someone talking who was not there. It's incredibly obvious why he is attacked. Surely you can appreciate that some people actually were badly affected by the 'idiocy' of which you speak - not all were fortunate or hardy enough to escape unharmed like you did. This is what I mean when I accuse premies of lacking the virtue of empathy for their brothers and sisters in the human race because they are so preoccupied with themselves and attending their precious Master's current wishes. I do not wish to jump on you in a judgemental way for your continued devotion to Maharaji although my opinions about the whole thing remain (which incidently are based on my personal experiences and not my more 'flimsy assumptions' about you). Of course your donations are your own business and it's good news that you have plenty of money. As you may have detected, I still haven't entirely forgiven Maharaji for being heavy about 'surrender' and living in the ashram. For me that period was undoubtedly the darkest, most unhappy period of my entire life and I feel that my most productive years in many ways (not just for making money) were irretrievably lost. I resent the fact that Maharaji's ashram whim was at the expense of my life - my precious time on this planet. I partly blame Maharaji for setting in place the authoritative hierarchy that I fell prey to. Maybe I should include you as one of those people who had a hand in setting up those ashrams. Actually I am also to blame - I helped set up an ashram or two. But at least I admit it and am publically sorry for buying into this abusive party line. The point is it was Maharaji himself who told these guys like David Smith to go forth and put the fear of God into us kids. He told these guys what to say and passed on to them his heavy vibe about commitment and sacrifice etc. Has he apologised for this - No, I don't think so. For some bizarre reason you are not able to bring yourself to say that Maharaji was clearly directly resonsible for some of these very dodgy goings-on and you choose to attribute the 'idiocy' (which you at least acknowledge as having happened) only to the 'confines of 'organisation'. ' This is telling. Your omission to apportion Maharaji any responsibility speaks volumes. Who are you trying to kid? Obviously yourself for a start. I am in principle tolerant towards anyones beliefs and practices - however, since I feel that I have some personal experience in these matter, I feel in a just postition to criticise the organisation and it's highly influential leader.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:47:20 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: READ further down, Klaus is troll [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:44:33 (EST) From: Sulla Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: To Klaus Message:

Excuse me sir, I live up to date, and all my donations to Maharaji add to maybe $400.00 in my 20 years as a premie.Do you think I'll make a good candidate to hang out with M as you do?. I wish I could. Would you ask M for me? Pleeeeeaaaaaassse?????????

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:24:55 (EST) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Sulla Subject: Well I do Message:

I donated $62.59 last year to Maharaji, because I needed to buy some food, or else I would have donated $79.68. Anyhow, you don't have to give lots of money to hang out with Maharaji and be his friend. I just attended an appointment in Los Angeles. It cost $100, but that wasn't a donation, because it cost, well, I guess $50,000 to rent a hotel ballroom for 3 hours. Those things are expensive, I guess, and the money just was to cover expenses. Anyhow, we got to hang out with him for about two hours. They let me tell him how much of that appreciation I have for that love, that peace, that truth, that breath, that gift, that experience, that gratitude, that participation and that syncrhonization. I wanted to ask him if I could lick the bottom or his toes, but he said he wasn't taking questions, so I didn't. It wouldn't have been respectful. One other time, I was standing in a hallway and Maharaji walked by and I think he LOOKED right at me. It was so beautiful to hang out with Maharaji and be his friend for at least 10 seconds. I really have that appreciation for that opportunity to feel that love which is that gift. Now that I am living in the trunk of my car again, I think I can send Maharaji even more money out of that gratitude and because I'm hoping to move up at least one row at the next appointment event. Do you know how many times I had to have sex with Derek Harper before I even got out of the bongo section in the back of the balcony and into the orchestra section, and not up front either, way in the back? I can still taste the bourbon. Yech! No, donations are the way to go.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 10:02:16 (EST) From: Jerry Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: I'm confused Message:

I'm a little confused, Pauline. When you say 'I wanted to ask him if I could lick the bottom or his toes, but he said he wasn't taking questions, so I didn't.', did you mean 'the bottom of his toes' or did you mean 'his bottom or his toes?' It gets so confusing sometimes. Could you clarify. You know how Maharaji is about clarity and how important it is.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:52:01 (EST) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Well, now that you mention it... Message:

I would be happy to lick whatever part of Maharaji that he would allow. Who wouldn't? Toes, bottom, the possibilities are endless! I almost wet my pants just imagining it. The reason I didn't ask him if I could was because he said he didn't want questions, and that was a question, and agya is agya.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:05:07 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: 'Friend'? Message:

So he's Klaus's 'friend' is he? They hang out together do they? So Klaus, you're just of couple of buddies going out on the town together. How many 'friends' do you know who kiss each other's feet? How many friends do you know who continually give each other money no questions asked? How much has he given you by the way? Have you ever had an arguement with him. (I've argued with all my friends from time to time.) Have you ever told him to 'Fuck off'? I say that to my friends from time to time? They say it to me more often. Are you sure your relationship isn't one of master and devotee? And do you think he'd be such a big pal if you were broke? Friends are equals. Do you consider yourself Rawat's equal? Do you think if you showed up unannounced at his door, and asked to sleep on the sofa for the night because your wife had kicked you out, he'd let you in? Do you think he'd be your 'friend' if you decided you'd had enough of his 'knowledge' trip? I think you're kidding yourself here mate. Anth, I'm a pink toothbrush, you're a blue toothbrush, have we met somewhere before?

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:24:42 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: AJW Subject: Good questions Anth Message:

Of course, this is the new spin w/Maha. He's making comments that he just wants to be with his friends. And premies have always had the fantasy of Maha being the little friend in their head, or was that heart. I like your honesty here, Have you ever told him to 'Fuck off'? I say that to my friends from time to time? They say it to me more often. Pretty funny })

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:57:03 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: Well said Patrick Message:

The nerve of the K Webber guy to rub out history,& the folly if he thinks anyone can really call the inscrutable spoilt brat incarnation a friend. How can you be friends with the Master? I wonder though about him & the recent Announcement. Still, face value is all we have to go on here. All the best : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:37:45 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: Say it like it is, brotha [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:36:16 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: You said it perfectly, Patrick W. Thanks. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:15:52 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: And May I Add.... Message:

Patrick, that was a great post. But, to Klaus Webber: first, when did you first associate yourself with Maharaji? Second: giving money to this fake god is so much easier than what our Bill did in service to m. I, too, lived in ashrams, and slaved for NO MONEY, while Maharaji continuosly lied to us about his own lifestyle. No, you have no right to come here and tell Bill, me and many others here how ''wonderful'' maharaji is. All you have to do is write out a check. Try living in an ashram with shabby clothes, no career, no personal will, or personal possibities, and have your Master completely demolish that you because HE says so. And what's with this darshan thingy? Do you kiss his feet? So you hang around with him. BFD. That means Big F**king Deal. You are his friend until your donations run out. As for Bill....he could tell you stories that would send chills up your spine. Me too, and so many others here. Am I angry? You bet. Maharaji took away the prime of my life. He took my love and and devotion and turned it into so much shit. Just because I don't happen to be rich. Good for you, Mr. Klaus. You have a friend....now stop giving up the money and see how much of a friend he is to you. And, you're in a cult you idiot. Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:13:27 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: Thanks, good summary (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:41:50 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: All Subject: Ollie North's Explanation....(OT) Message:

And maybe a way to ask Maharaji a difficult question. According to the Orange County Weekly: Ollie North has the answer: Muslim radicals hate us not because we’re free and rich nor because U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East has been designed to guarantee the unfettered flow of oil. No, North tells us, Muslim fundamentalists hate us because they 'know what the scripture tells us, which is that the only path to God in heaven is through his son, our savior, Jesus Christ.' Speaking at Anaheim’s Melodyland Christian Center Church on Nov. 11, the Fox News commentator and former Marine Corps officer said he agreed with 'his colleagues in the ‘mainstream’ news media' that not all Muslims are evil or hate America. But pointing at what appeared to be a Bible, North said, 'We know that every single word in this book is true.' And because of that, North asserted, America’s Islamic enemies, including Osama bin Laden and the Taliban, hate Christians. North’s stunning revelation that only Christians will go to heaven came about two-thirds of the way through his Veterans Day speech, 'Security in Uncertain Times.' ... Finally, however, a young, conservatively dressed woman stood up and interrupted North’s speech. 'Were you being a good Christian when you smuggled drugs into our country and sold weapons to terrorists?' she asked. North’s eyebrows fell; his voice followed. He politely offered to respond to her question 'a little bit later, if that’s okay with you.' Apparently to help facilitate that offer, a dozen church ushers and security guards hastily escorted the woman out of the building.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:31:10 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Ollie North...how to ask MAHA a Q.. Message:

See, if only you all knew the scriptures as well as the Islamic fundies and Ollie, you, too, would hate the U.S.!! How conservatively will one have to dress to ask M a question? And Ollie, the answer to her question is 'no.'

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:23:59 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Hi Mickey.... Message:

Yes, we all wait for Ollie North to tell us what God really wants. I know I do. That's what his radio show is for, I guess. It's very wet and very cold here, at least cold for Bay Area standards. But the 49ers are doing well. Next week the RAAAAAMMMS!! Big game. Big, big game.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:25:34 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Actually the Raiders are too.. Message:

But they got screwed last week. Still with Jerry Rice it's a good team. Why am I talking about football? Maybe because M is booooooring?

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:22:14 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Actually the Raiders are too.. Message:

Boy, I must admit that I miss 49er and Raider games. I can't afford Direct TV and while one channel does show US football games on Sunday, it never seems to be the Niners and it is a channel that I don't receive well. But I can see lots of futbol. It is the end of the rainy season here and it just pours! It has been getting down to about 73 F at night, which seems like it is gonna snow at any minute here in the Tropics. Hasta luego.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:26:21 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Re: Actually the Raiders are too.. Message:

The tropics might feel pretty good right now. SF is cold. Colder than even the Summers. :) The Niners are really playing well. I think they have moved up a notch. Walsh sure knows how to pick quarteracks. Garcia is the spittin image of Joe Montana -- runs just like him. Mickey, if the Niners make the Playoffs, I could send you videos.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:25:53 (EST) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Joe Subject: Muchas gracias Message:

Thanks, Joe, that would be great!

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:56:40 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Maybe a Burkha....? NT/OT Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 10:48:40 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: All Subject: Bill I just emailed you... Message:

at the address you indicated below... If you don't receive it, email me a sylviecyn@yahoo.com. Otherwise the email address I sent you is better. Luv, C

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 09:28:16 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: All Subject: How 'bout this? Message:

M gets a new PR firm, goes out on a restricted tour and then all premie web sites, major info removed off the net..... M gets new PR firm, they want to see what his cult is made up of. Go out on tour, let the faithful gush and blush to get an accurate picture of what they have left to work with/milk, and see which way the ship must now turn to ride the tide. Charge an outrageous requested donation, covering not only the minimal event expenses but also the PR's costly fees, and those supposed $90,000 video production costs. (Never understood that one.) Mission accomplished, the troops have been rounded up and infused with a dose of devotion. Try and make everyone there feel they are the faithful and deserved ones. Make an example out of anyone who raises a question to scare the hell out of those gathered 'round the feet of the master.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:01:40 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Vicki Subject: hey vicki-email me Message:

i posted something here to you about my walking away at the sanata monica unveiling of autonowledge on april 25th, and it didnt post. that was my last program too. lets talk. mensabrains@webtv.net or call me if you're near me. i live in los angeles. i'll put it in an email if you answer this. you're the first other person I;ve seen who called it quits after the same program I did.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 10:00:53 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: hey vicki-email me Message:

Hi Janet, I read your post and replied. Is there another glitch?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 00:26:38 (EST) From: Chuck S. Email: None To: Vicki Subject: A P.R. firm? It's possible... Message:

Over 20 years I've watched the way M. handles things become more and more like a business. So many of the PAMs seem to be consultants, too. He could hire a P.R. firm, but if he has I'm sure it's a secret, like so many things surrounding him. We are left to guess. And let's not forget the San Ysidro conference fiasco. There he hired non-premie advisers, yet refused to take their advice. M. is famous for ignoring advice, even when it's good. One has to wonder how much good a PR firm could do for a client like that. M. sure knows how to waste money!

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:56:21 (EST) From: suchabanana Email: banana@banana_bucks.com To: All Subject: segue to 'Ginger'... Message:

da next cult-ure craze: http://www.segway.com.edgesuite.net/consumer/ also: http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/12/03/scooter.unveiling/index.html%00 now, wadda 'bout folks with bad knees or dose amputees, or waddaya do in da pouring rain - git soaking wet, skid around on steep hills, crash into people and cars, poles? then, y'know, it'll be Formula Segway HT races and then who knows? we could have: Segway polo, golf carts, locks, Segway racks, Segway trails, Skateboards and Segways prohibited signs, SegwayWear, the 101st Segway Battalion, off-trail Segway rallies, Segway rentals, Segway ordinances, Segway accidents, litigation, insurance, helmets/pads, service shops, recharger industry/system... Ginger -- the Segway Human Transport: jest 1 of da many material spices of life! Only $3000. Custom model $8,000. Choice of colors. Hur-ry, hur-ry! Be the first on yer block... [ http://www.segway.com.edgesuite.net/consumer/ ] [ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:23:25 (EST) From: suchabanana Email: banana@Our_Lady_of_Perpetual_Guilt.org To: suchabanana Subject: Re: segue to St. Ginger Vitus Dance. Message:

http://www.satirewire.com/news/0112/sht2.shtmlhttp://www.satirewire.com/news/0112/sht2.shtml [ http://www.satirewire.com/news/0112/sht2.shtml ]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:47:14 (EST) From: such Email: banana@amtrak.com To: suchabanana Subject: St. Ginger Vitus - Osama connection Message:

http://www.satirewire.com/news/0112/bin_laden_segway.shtml What's so far-fetched? hahaha ok, now, think about this, fer starters...: I mean, after all, USA's CIA and military trained Bin Laden, USA trained da suicide-bomber pilots, some Wall St. stocks and US holdings funded Al Quaeda, and in the entire world -- Only the US military and CIA have reportedly developed the type of extremely high caliber of anthrax powder (which is almost identical to the anthrax) which was sent to the Senate Democratic leadership offices. Burn down the Reichstag. Blame the Jews and the Communists. Declare homeland security. Round up Jews and Communists for questioning by the gestapo and try them in secret military tribunals. Scare everyone periodically with more un-named terrorist threat alerts. instigate a few provacateur incidents. under the umbrella of buzzword 'security', progressively suspend more civil rights. appoint a czar of homeland security. increase govt executive branch sweeping emergency powers. guilty until proven innocent. wire-tapping. interrogation. isolation. Give us other Names, or else... stranger than fiction. btw, sat ire is like sat sang on satire day [which follows fry day]

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:55:56 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: such Subject: sat ire is what we have here Message:

sat+sang=company of truth therefore sat+ire=truth of anger

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 07:13:57 (EST) From: such Email: banana@oxford.edu.uk To: janet Subject: that's right, Message:

at least according to da banana unabridged dictionary. P+L,

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:20:59 (EST) From: .. Email: None To: such Subject: ,. Message:

,.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:54:47 (EST) From: such Email: None To: such Subject: Bin Laden - Ginger link!! Message:

http://www.satirewire.com/news/0112/bin_laden_segway.shtml [ http://www.satirewire.com/news/0112/bin_laden_segway.shtml ]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:22:10 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: such Subject: Hey Such, talkin' to yourself?:):) Message:

Don't worry, I'm listening too. I bookmarked those links. You lentil you.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:34:15 (EST) From: such Email: banana@mediation.com To: Cynthia Subject: gut reaction to party poopers: nth argument [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:34:04 (EST) From: such Email: banana@mediation.com To: Cynthia Subject: ... Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:11:26 (EST) From: such Email: banana@dust2dust_R_us.com To: All Subject: ashes in the Ganges... Message:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/SHOWBIZ/Music/12/03/harrison.india/index.html [ http://www.cnn.com/2001/SHOWBIZ/Music/12/03/harrison.india/index.html ]

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 23:15:23 (EST) From: Salam Email: None To: All Subject: Am proud to say that Message:

IT IS SO website is first on the list. Beat everyone elses on google. don't ask me how that happened as I never even submitted it to a searxh engine. The Internet has a mind of it's own. Google Search Thanks to Stonor for bringing that to my attention. Salam

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 08:01:21 (EST) From: malas Email: None To: Salam Subject: It's the best that's WHY!! Message:

:)

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:14:37 (EST) From: lama s. Email: None To: malas Subject: Re: It's the best that's WHY!! OK Message:

dungis rule P+L,

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:39:53 (EST) From: Salam Email: None To: lama s. Subject: Re: It's the best that's WHY!! OK Message:

STOP WRITING MY NAME BACK TO FRONTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:47:59 (EST) From: such Email: None To: Salam Subject: but, who's cooking tamales? Message:

swami s. is lama s. but lil swamis don't wear no 'malas'... no malice intended [but rather molasses]. so, who dat? wondering...

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 23:45:34 (EST) From: annabanana Email: None To: such Subject: Does he make m look bad or what?!!! Message:

Right on the first page ... EPO is conservative compared to Salam's 'in your face' pics of m at his 'pinnacle'. I clicked on it for the first time in a while just because it was there, and that was the impression I had. Considering the current upheaval in Oz's premie circles, it's great timing, I think! :) Hope you're well, I thought I'd cleared my plate of the harvest-cook-get-ready-for-winter thing, and then had it loaded again the next minute with something I never expected - life ... ;) LOL (the 'other' acronym ;) 'Stonor'

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 08:06:36 (EST) From: such Email: None To: annabanana Subject: you shoulda seen it shake Message:

hiya anna! yeah, whenever Massa danced in da mala, he'd make a lil hula motion to da right, then start going to da left, but his blubbery body would kinda follow in slow-motion, one roll of flab at a time [like Jello], with the phlegmie muzak gospel band playin stuff like 'your body is beautiful' or 'I just wanna dance with YOu', or to the sounds of the p.a. cranking 'Do Ya Think I'm SEXY?!' premie chicks in grannie dresses or leisure suits moaning, squealing, gyrating and going into spasms like lovelorn puppies in heat {just like a Backstreet Boys concert], dudes with hands upraised like a tent revival meeting, teary eyed, [yes, Massa, yes, yes, whatever you say, yes, your wish is my command, oh, please grant me the gift of devotion, LORD], then down on their knees, then everybody pranaming face-down before Guru Maharaji on the concrete floor of Miami, LA, Tucson, Philly, Chicago, Houston, SF, etc. really kinky, in retrospect. like a good ol' Pentacostal meeting, except all the worship going not to God, or the deceased Son of God, but to THE living lord, savior, Perfect Master of our time himself - as he referred to himself in the third person -- da massa, dat perfection, dat savior, dat lord, dat Guru Maharaji, etc. so, in that respect, kinda like a Nazi Nuremburg rally mixed with overtones of da Krishna Millenium + a bubblegum rock concert. you know, Al Quaeda cult swore allegiance to Bin Laden,too, just like premies did to marji, and Germans did to Hitler. also reminds me of da real-life mafia Godfather scene. we even had our own brownshirts - WPC. The REichmeister's brother ran that operation, under der fuhrer's aegis. visualize the Osmond family in funky bellbottoms, long dresses, sappy music, lotsa crying begging pleading adoring worshipful faces, marji and staff programming the timing of every vid, every tune, every nuance to intensify the cult idol love-in. those donation boxes coming and going. those darshan money envelopes for the much preferred cash. those tables for making pledges, signing up for sponsorships, writing dose checks, giving it up to the living Lard. hey, r.e. these new high-priced appointment events: they're requesting 'cash' only. YOu'd think even some of these premie CPAs and accountants would have enough brains left to see Giant red Warning flags, on that account. marji's entire megacash cow machine is NOT exactly GAAP. But once a person is truly brainwashed and cult lobotomized, one begins to overlook, dismiss, or justify things that would be downright suspicious, unacceptable, or unethical in any other given situation -- da pitfalls of subjugating one's intelligence and independence, and putting all the eggs of one's life and salvation in da basket of any other human being. ciao fer now!

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:48:17 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Salam Subject: Good Job Salam Message:

And thanks for providing a stellar resourse of information and options to assist the efforts of those who wish exit the cult. I have checked up on other ex-cult support groups and they pale in comparison to the outstanding presentation and organization of EPO, F7, and your own It Is So. A job well done Mate

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 00:33:56 (EST) From: such Email: None To: Salam Subject: Re: Am proud to say that Message:

Hi Salam: good work: re listing for 'Guru Maharaji'. now try google search on just: 'Maharaji' [maybe adjust the metatags to boost...?] btw, now I was just wondering where you were... must be da psychic friends network, or sumptin... dungis rule! da lil swami

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:34:26 (EST) From: Salam Email: None To: such Subject: guru Watch links alert Message:

muy interesting. This premie has had more guru than all of us put together, I think he deserves a listing. http://www.heartspace.org/misc/teachers.html while this fellow list him in the general population http://www.wideopenwin.com/prvcgi/static.asp?overview=alfa&letter=m otherwise am ok.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 07:00:02 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Salam Subject: This guy went out for the proverbial Message:

Glass of water a few too many times, You know the old parable, guru asks for a glass of water, devotee goes to fetch water falls heavy into maya, forgets the water,falls in love, finds a career, get's married, has kids, buys a home, just totally spaces out and so on till at the end of his life he remembers that he started out to do find something. This guy takes that concept to a whole new level here he finds another guru and still another guru, then another guru and so on so forth etc. Apparently this guy is for real, his story could not be stranger if it were fiction

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:31:01 (EST) From: such Email: banana@Rainbow_petrochemicals.com To: Salam Subject: guy went nuts at the New Age store Message:

looks like he bought All the pitches -- and probably all the inventory and materials, too. Wow! looks like he done bought da whole Aquarian supermarket... or, kinda like a smorgasbord, or buffet-style spiritualist cafeteria... after all, if he eats one mantra or yoga tech today, he'll just be hungry again tomorrow! holy leaping ladus! Rainbow Light Om-Da Visions Emporium: our current special is 'guru de jour'. lessee, what day is it? oh yeah, if this is Tuesday this must be Da Free John meds. er, dat's Friday. hmmmm, duh - of course! it's crystal channeling + TM day, right after using da Abdomizer, and getting those expensive tix for the dalai lama [no wait, marji's comin to town - potential conflict of interest - better throw da I Ching]. gotta find some pennies... or maybe consult da ouija board, er, my astrologer. dunno - and should ask my aromatherapist what she thinks about the effects of rennet on auras, and if she has a potion fer that... hari rama hari rama rama rama ramma lama ding dong... ding dong, ding dong -- ask not for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for tea. Or, as George Bush Sr. once said, "Read my rose hips!" PS bet that guy has a great scrapbook of photos and/or various cults' memorabilia. like, when da going gets tough, da professional spirit-seeker goes shoppin'! wondering: Did he get into or try EST, Rolfing, Scientology, Krishna Consciousness, Angel Guardians, past life regression, da protective tube of light, ascended masters, Urantia book, Seth Speaks, the Farm, tantra, siddhas, nichiren snowshoe, Sun Hung Moon, Church of Wicca, Maranatha, Children of God, Father Love, Charlie Manson, Reverend Ike, Pentacostal church, Gourdchef, Druids, Native American Church of Peyote, sensory deprivation chambers, thousands of hits of LSD+mescaline+STP+speed+opium, enema cleansing, Pritikin diet, wafer diet, wheatgrass fasting, ahimsa, shaolin kung fu, tai chi, sheng dung fui, color therapy, Halpern muzack healing CDs, drum circles, ceremony of da pipe, passing of da jug, flogging of da bogarter, hehehe, hatha yoga classes, zen jogging, the Inner Game of Poker, tofurkey, tiger balm, dhotis, sandals, japa rosary beads, chillums, tie-dye, thankas, personal altars, incense, baragon, cushions, futon, begging bowl, welfare check, foodstamps, organic produce, the Vague Guru Monologues, welfare check rugu donations, da haj, jihad, mission, crusade, holy war, war of da angels, exorcism, santeria, vegeburgers, soylent green, long pig, tofu ham, astral projection, dead sea strolls, gnostech gospells, theosophical society, Taliban, Kabala, Rotary, Masons, Mormons, Betas, finger cymbals, nose ring, dreads, yin-yang tattoo, Loma links, Have-a chips, Tom's toothpaste, Hansen's Mandarin Orange, psychedelic VW, yohimbe bark tea, mushroom tea, place of power, Carlos Castaneda, black light, day-glo, strobe light, grow light, co-op, nudism, prayer of St Francis, UFOs, greys, whites, reds, bennies, purple Owsley, doppio expresso, BMW, All Things Musty Pass, Days of Future Passed, ecological investment portfolio, Paul Horn's album Inside, pyramid power, polarity therapy, acupressure, magnet therapy, palmistry, tea leaf reading, primal scream therapy, death therapy [i.e. What about Bob?], Enlightenment for Dummies, A Breath is like a Rose: the poetry of Rod Prem McKuen, chakra channeling, Mt. Shasta blue people, the tooth fairy, Machu Peachy pilgrimage, bathe in da Ganges, drink bhang lassi, bang lassie, patchouli, walk on coals, believe in Atlantis, Lemuria, lemurs, le mur, la mer, la mere, merde, etc. etc. ... ???? Evidently, he hasn't seen stuff like the guru papers or epo, fer starters. someone otter email him vege links to all dose rugus exposed ex sites! talk about a Wake-up call!!! HELLO-OOO! LOL but, ah sure wouldn't want to give him any Old Age Cadillac arrest, however, from da shock...

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:40:34 (EST) From: salam Email: None To: such Subject: guy went nuts at the Message:

where do you come up with all this stuff from. and am reformed now, Yes Sir., I don't do the guru thing anymore. I only pop up here occasionally when I foind something, otherwise am at AG2 having a fight with somebody.

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