Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Nov 29, 2001 To: Dec 05, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


Jim -:- My apology to Katie -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 22:54:38 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Jesus, Mary and Joseph! -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:53:50 (EST)
__ __ Moley -:- Jesus Mary et al - Stop preaching -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:57:26 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Jesus, Mary and Joseph! -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:06:12 (EST)
__ Katie -:- If you're serious -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:04:52 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- I was going to email you Katie -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:43:15 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- A small correction -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:25:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- That wasn't clear, John -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:32:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: That wasn't clear, John -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:12:55 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Oh, Katie..... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:09:32 (EST)
__ __ Katie -:- And to everyone - re my infamous statement -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:08:28 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Will you answer this one? -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:21:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- you can't m ake the world over -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:46:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Please Consider This... -) -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:24:13 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- You did it again, Katie -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:40:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Moley -:- Re: You did it again, Katie -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:20:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- pat and modey-nope! -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:10:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You're partly right, Janet -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 13:58:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Please, Katie -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:25:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Fucking drop it!!!! -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:00:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Tonette...I agree... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:24:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I think you are right Cynthia -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:00:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- M is DEFINATELY up to something! -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:52:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- And I have a Beloved Sister... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:15:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- WHY is this such a big deal for you?? -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:52:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Katie explained it. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:20:37 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- It's true what you say, Katie -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:50:59 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Katie... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:48:32 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- About the password -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:36:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Gerry...but -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:44:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- hey gerwy, what's da Storwee? hehehe -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:45:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Katie, did you ever consider this? -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:28:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Great post, Jim -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:20:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- a point taken. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:58:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks such -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:03:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- ok, maybe live unplugged... [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:20:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, I'm not good enough for that :) [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:29:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- but, but, ,,but -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:58:00 (EST)
__ Salam -:- Are you serious? -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:33:47 (EST)
__ __ Divine adjudicator -:- Add another ten names to that -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 08:15:56 (EST)
__ __ __ Moley -:- Re: Add another ten names to that -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 09:58:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Moley ... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 00:15:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Moley ... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 00:59:33 (EST)
__ PatC -:- The Jim vs Katie debate -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 05:08:32 (EST)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: The Jim vs Katie debate -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 00:16:15 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- You're right - not really relevant -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:03:26 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Agree! [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:50:16 (EST)
__ __ Moley -:- Pat - you said it just right ! -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 07:23:31 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Commendable ! -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 03:22:52 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Yes, Bravo! -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:02:54 (EST)
__ bill -:- Re: My apology to Katie -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 00:59:21 (EST)
__ __ Klaus Webber -:- Re: My apology to Katie -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 08:24:11 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Troll that who said crap to ABI -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:46:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Don't think you can assure us Klaus -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:53:25 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Hey Santi Klaus -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:44:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Wow , what a Bio Logical breakdown Gerry [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:56:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Klaus -:- Re: Me -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 08:31:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- The information is on the web -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:03:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Welcome, Klaus -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:53:03 (EST)
__ __ such -:- what Charananananand told me -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 03:41:19 (EST)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- above lost amidst the bickering -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:19:55 (EST)
__ __ Barbara -:- The Fifth Technique -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 01:41:11 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: The Fifth Technique -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:04:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ such -:- fessin' up: -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:53:48 (EST)

Joe -:- M Apologist Websites/Charles Glasser Jr. -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:11:06 (EST)
__ michael donner -:- Re: M Apologist Websites/Charles Glasser Jr. -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 23:13:58 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- ignoring the dogs barking -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:08:10 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- That will only peak curiosity -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:22:42 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- Re: M Apologist Websites/Charles Glasser Jr. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 01:05:30 (EST)
__ __ such -:- yep, classic cult s.o.p. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 00:43:24 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Question to you Mike -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 23:25:01 (EST)
__ __ __ bill -:- Re: Question to you Mike -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 01:21:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Email is not going through -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:18:04 (EST)
__ Abi -:- the error of their ways -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 22:31:38 (EST)
__ __ Perhaps you are dreaming -:- oh holy one -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 08:12:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Abi -:- creepy premie alert -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:13:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ It's Klaus Webber -:- Donor and Friend of Maharaji--not a nice guy [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:28:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Cryptic troll alert..? [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 10:51:10 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- Well you and Jim did such a good job! -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:08:17 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- That makes sense -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 23:47:25 (EST)
__ __ Moley -:- Boiling shriek - fab phrase Fran !nt -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:14:13 (EST)
__ Nigelandmoley -:- True, Joe... -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:34:14 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- You are looking at the OLD site. -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:50:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Who told you that? I'll sue... -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:09:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- No, Nigel it's gone -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 23:51:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Lessons in Love, comes to mind -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 05:56:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You're sure up early... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:12:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Kev -:- Level 42 -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:39:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- That's the very same bastard... -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:58:45 (EST)
__ Meanwood Meanie -:- And does Jon Cainer have a voice? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:16:58 (EST)
__ __ Moley -:- Does Jon Cainer have Pluto up Uranus??nt -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:44:02 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Crainer involved with CAC? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:45:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Yes and no.. -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:58:53 (EST)

Timmi -:- is it his ego........? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 17:52:11 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- No, a personality defect.. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:30:02 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Who can tell for sure -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 07:29:32 (EST)
__ RichMandrake -:- Timmi..Very Interesting.. -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 22:03:41 (EST)
__ __ Timmi -:- Re: Timmi..Very Interesting.. -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 22:21:07 (EST)
__ Anybody -:- You missed something -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:36:27 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- Troll alert... [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:22:42 (EST)
__ peg -:- Re: is it his ego........? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:10:58 (EST)
__ __ Stonor -:- Hope Timmi doesn't mind, but ... -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:21:43 (EST)
__ __ Timmi -:- Re: is it his ego........? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:25:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Peg -:- Not me. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 05:34:54 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: is it his ego........? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 18:34:56 (EST)
__ __ Timmi -:- Re: is it his ego........? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 18:36:59 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: is it his ego........? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:05:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ peg -:- Re: is it his ego........?? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:17:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: is it his ego........??????????? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:04:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- the last program -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:44:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: the last program -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 09:58:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Brilliant, Vicki, and Peg and Timmi.. -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:38:40 (EST)

Hank Wallerlby -:- Response to Lesley's Trainings Post -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 17:30:52 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Glad to meet you Hank -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:17:13 (EST)
__ PatC -:- So, Daya's only cost one million... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:22:44 (EST)
__ Lesley -:- Hi Hank -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 02:37:48 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Hi Hank--good to hear from you [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 01:15:09 (EST)
__ such -:- yep,if things weren't rotten in da state -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 00:20:14 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Many recent exes in past months, such [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 00:36:53 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Thanks, I needed that -- welcome aboard -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 21:24:07 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Hank, welcome and Jim... -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:18:01 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, thanks Pat -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:11:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Jim...re: your cat bite...OT -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:02:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Jim...re: your cat bite...OT -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:44:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Not small change, Jim -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:10:33 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Hi Hank and thanks -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:57:08 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- Hank -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 01:31:19 (EST)
__ Moley -:- Hi Hank -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:08:03 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- The Bhakti Trip -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:17:24 (EST)
__ __ __ Moley -:- Re: The Bhakti Trip -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:41:31 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Thanks Hank.. -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 18:25:58 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Welcome to the real world -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 17:46:54 (EST)
__ __ Phillie Mole -:- Re: 'M, do you meditate?' -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 18:03:10 (EST)

Scott T. -:- Will be in Seattle area -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 16:56:19 (EST)

JHB -:- Elan Vital is getting slimmer every day! -:- Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 20:01:02 (EST)
__ Elena -:- EV/RAWAT & FRIENDS - Terrorist Training Methods -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 15:51:57 (EST)
__ __ don -:- patriotic duty??? -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:32:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Elena -:- Immigration/Cash Flow/Deceptive Air Staff -:- Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:13:00 (EST)
__ janet -:- a charity benefitting who???? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 01:30:16 (EST)
__ JHB -:- So is Glasser's site -:- Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 20:14:20 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- M's Rottweiler a poodle, after all? -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:24:35 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- References to Wilkie Farr omitted -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:03:08 (EST)
__ __ janet -:- speaking of the truth about maharaji-- -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 01:34:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Alton Road and Palm Island? (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 05:55:46 (EST)
__ __ such -:- Maharajiavellian strategies: -:- Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 00:27:26 (EST)
__ __ Sir Dave }( -:- I still don't understand -:- Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 21:19:48 (EST)


Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 22:54:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: My apology to Katie
Message:
Dear Katie,

After reading what our mutual friends have written about this, I'm prepared to admit I was wrong. It was nothing but my historic hatred of you that made me think that you were disparaging the exes who post here as being as unfairly negative about Maharaji as the premies are positive. It was nothing but my stubbornness that made me persist in trying to talk with you about that. And it was nothing but my excessive lawyering skills that made me think you owed me or anyone an explanation.

Your friends -- sorry, OUR friends -- have very clearly shown me that words can be deceptive. I'm sorry I misconstrued yours. Will you please forgive me?

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:53:50 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jesus, Mary and Joseph!
Message:
Beat a dead horse why don't you two!
So you don't like each other. Okay. Move on and a least try and stop the haranging, bickering and insults. You especially Jim.
What's up with this apology? Is it true or not? Part of it seems sincere but really, what exactly do you mean? I cannot imagine you really HATING anyone Jim. I would not like to think that of you and it does not seem true to your nature as exposed here or by those that know you.
Katie is a peacemaker. She reflects on what is good and awful about this forum. I'm sorry she insulted you with her comments. Frankly, this is much adeau about nothing. Surely her contribution here is more valuable than a post which was inflamatory.
Get over it! She is not on trial and did not commit a Capital offense.
Please, Please at least consider this side of it, you two.

I have alot of respect for both of you but this is resembling a bar room braul. Actually, this thread and the others like it more resemble two kids fighting over crayons, it's that stupid and infantile.

Please no fireworks Jim, I'm not worth the time, typing or energy. This is just my two cents worth and I know you don't agree and are very passionate about this issue but enough already.

I wish you wouldn't leave Katie.

A bystander, Tonette

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:57:26 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Jesus Mary et al - Stop preaching
Message:
at Jim - what a load of complete bollocks you have written. Why do people in this place take it upon themselves, like taking on the mantle of a guru, to tell others what to do? Stop being patronising - it's nauseating, quite frankly.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:06:12 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Jesus, Mary and Joseph!
Message:
Tonette, this is NOT about Jim and Katie. That myth is being perpetuated with the help of JHB and Joe. If you read the posts from Pat, Moley, and Myself from the past few days, you will get another perspective. Do you think it's fair that our comments should be shunned because it contradicts the 'Jim/Katie myth'? It's not fair, a lot of us have been trying to straighten this out. And Katie's comments started this, it was important for her to back them up. But she fled instead.

Let them work it out. It's a good thing Katie came here to respond. This issue is quite capable of being resolved. If it's resolved Tonette, we won't have to perpetuate the myth. Unresolved arguments create contention, and result in misplaced anger, etc. It is very very unhealthy.

Trust that Jim and Katie are capable of bringing this to a peaceful resolve. You are saying that Katie is a peacemaker while discouraging her from making peace. Don't read the posts if it's bothering you.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:04:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: If you're serious
Message:
And I have a feeling you're not, but nevermind - thank you, Jim. I don't hate you, although I know I've ACTED hatefully towards you, and I apologize for that. Brian doesn't hate you either - we are both just somewhat burned-out right now.

I know that my writing and thinking style drives you nuts at times, and although I can't really apologize for that (I am TRYING to change it), I admit that I tend to over-generalize, say too much, and get too emotional. (I'm sure you can think of lots of other flaws...)

Something that came into my head last night, which made me expect your post (even if not meant seriously). Sorry I can't show the video that went along with it :)

What do you want me to do,
to do for you, to see you through?
For this is all a dream we dreamed
one afternoon long ago.

And it's just a box of rain
I don't know who put it there
Believe it if you need it
or leave it if you dare
But it's just a box of rain
or a ribbon for your hair
Such a long, long, time to be gone
and a short time to be there.

Take care, Jim - and watch out for them cats.
Katie

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:43:15 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I was going to email you Katie
Message:
I have always been able to resolve issues with you. That's why I'm so surprised you haven't been able to do it with Jim. You have a talent in that department. Probably the reason that you are good at dealing with premies.

I wanted to tell you that I didn't feel comfortable having to discuss all of this without you being there but the argument was perpetuated by the people who were defending you.

But JHB and Joe were not a good help. They both delivered a couple of sucker punches to Jim last night. Joe shouldn't have said, you probably didn't agree with the comment about black and white thinking, in one post, than abruptly change horses admantly defending why you agreed. There should be more transition in extreme points. And his comment about how Jim viciously hates you was really uncalled for Katie. First of all, that's not true. Jim has told me on numerous occasions that he admired (and he did have some nice things to say about you), but was frustrated with some on-going patterns. To hear Joe say something so mean and put it in someone else's mouth floored me, as I know better. JHB and Joe both insisted that Jim drop it, while they were still issuing insults. That's not dropping it. That's getting the last word by intimidation. Hardly diplomatic.

JHB did promise Jim last week in consecutive days that he would expound and didn't. Than I read a post that JHB accuses Jim of hounding him for responses. What??????????

Unfortunately, your name was repeated over and over in an attempt for clarification with other posters. I'm sure it felt uncomfortable. I realized last night I didn't want to continue the discussion because it was taking a bad turn. I was very relieved to see your post here Katie. This was not something that others could resolve for you.

You are both good people, with different strengths and weaknesses. It's imposrtant that we all take some responsibility for miscommunications. Hope you feel better. Email me if you like.

BTW, I saw Jim's bandages from the cat attack. Think "Life of Brian" with the rabbit. Yea! Pretty bad owie

Take care,

deborah

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:25:51 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: A small correction
Message:
Deborah,

You wrote:-

JHB did promise Jim last week in consecutive days that he would expound and didn't. Than I read a post that JHB accuses Jim of hounding him for responses. What??????????

Firstly I accused Jim of reminding me several times that I hadn't responded, not of hounding me. When I bowed out of the original debate, I told Jim it was 2.45 am and I'd respond in the morning. In the morning, I didn't have time for more than a short response and I said I'd write a longer post when I had time (I didn't say when I would have time). I spent Tuesday and Wednesday morning away from computers (I have a life BTW). I then thought about the issue and realised I was making assumptions about how people feel about the forum, both as premies and before they post for the first time as exes. I needed to know if my assumptions were correct, so I posted the survey. Then, when writing my response I realised I was referring to yours and Jim's posts which were not accessible to you or Jim, so I had to get the archives up to date so that you had the same information as I had. In doing so I encountered hotboards date corruption problems with three of the archive files, but I still put the relevant ones live. Then I posted my response.

Now if you think my delay was unreasonable, that's up to you, but a delay of five days in the circumstances does not seem unreasonable to me.

John.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:32:50 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: That wasn't clear, John
Message:
And I don't think you needed the survey to respond. You seem bent on proving the painfully obvious. Whether some premies feel frazzled was never the question. The question always was why Katie said what she did, and why you agreed with her. And, what about Janet's post did you find so spot on.

Even then, I showed you how Elaine's response regarding Marianne's thoroughly, unmistakenly, benign remark was misconstrued to look (only in Elaine's eyes, of course) as being scary. She asked Marianne very direct questions including how she should feel about Maharaji and Marianne's answer was that she should come to her own conclusions. Marianne fairly said, that it was not her job to tell her what to think. Elaine said to PatC, that even that comment was painful.

I think that proved the point many of us have been trying to say, is that the premies think everything we say is scary because of where they're coming from (censored thoughts for years or decades) and their exposure to a new medium. BTW, i am not repeating this to insult Elaine. Not at all. I'm pointing it out for purposes of the discussion which inspired you to do the survey.

I don't know if you were clear w/Jim about why it was taking so long. Your response didn't address his questions. But you did use every opportunity to paint Jim as unreasonable and obsessed w/Katie although more of us were also talking to you about Katie's post.

You haven't been addressing our points, at all, John. But finding new ways to spin the same accusations. Moley told you that yesterday as well. It can't be just in our imaginations.

Maybe you were clear in posts why you hadn't responded. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:12:55 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: That wasn't clear, John
Message:
Deborah,

It seems that you haven't been reading my posts as I've said many times I didn't agree with Katie, and yet you repeat your mistaken view that I did agree with her. You accuse me of not addressing the issue. Well go back to the archives and read my first post which started my debate with Jim. You will see that I have stuck to the same issue throughout. And 5 days is NOT a long time. Why do you think it is?

John.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:09:32 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Oh, Katie.....
Message:
Of course he's not serious; that 'apology' was complete sarcasm.

Katie, I really like you, but I think one of the 'problems' here is that you don't protect yourself the way you should. This is due to the fact that, like Gerry said, you care too much, and tend to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, maybe to an extent premies and M as well, which might not be popular here.

But as you can see, responding to Jim's sarcasm just sets you up, I am afraid. So, just speaking as a friend, don't do that anymore. It's too painful for me to watch. Okay? If you can't do it for yourself, do it for me and everybody else.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:08:28 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: And to everyone - re my infamous statement
Message:
Dear forum -

It's been an intense, and not very pleasant, experience reading other people's opinions of me, inferences about my character and personality, and interpretations of things that I've said. It has reminded me a bit of John Mac's description of the 'scapegoat' exercise at the training he went to - I certainly feel like the 'weakest link' here, that's for sure. (It didn't help that no one sent me the password for the forum, either - that was definitely an non-subtle message there, although perhaps non-intentional! I got Gerry's virus instead - snicker!)

Re my infamous statement - first, I should make one thing clear - I don't give a damn if premies post here or not. My oft-quoted statement was part of a very civil conversation with Joe. Joe was the one who said that he wished that premies would post here - and a lot of our discussion was about why they would or would not post here. A lot of people have taken my post as a plea to make the forum more 'premie-friendly' - it was not. I was simply stating the reasons why I thought they wouldn't post here - in response to Joe.

And in particular re said infamous statement, which I'll repost again on the chance that someone hasn't seen it :):

''I can't really answer that FOR the person, as I don't want to put words in their mouth, and I have never asked that specific question. However, I know this person feels that there is a dominant paradigm on this forum, and that input that doesn't fit into this paradigm is either stifled or attacked. Thus it's not truly 'open'. And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but I can't disagree. On this forum, we discuss and make assumptions about a lot of things re M's world that we don't have the facts about, and there seems to be a general consensus on this forum to put the WORST possible face on things - just as premies tend to spin to put the BEST possible face on things (for example, 'Please Consider This', and similar sites.) So it's difficult for reasonable premies to come and 'discuss' because they feel the deck is already stacked against them, and very few people here are going to listen.''

I have been trying to figure out why people got so upset about this. I read it over and over again - and still had problems. I suppose people thought I was challenging the whole basis of this forum - and once again, I realize that my statement was too generalized (in other words, I should have used qualifiers.) I apologize for that - it resulted from trying to talk about something which I had been asked to keep confidential without revealing too much.

What I meant to say is that when the facts aren't known, then people (both here and on Life's Great) tend to guess at them from the bits of information that they do have. The tone of each forum dictates the tone of the speculation. To give a counter example of this - there has been lots of speculation in the premie world about EPO which is wrong. John Brauns and I (and Brian, when he was around) have spent tons of time correcting various premie's misapprehensions about ex-premie.org. Some of them have listened, many have not.

Let me make another thing clear - I was not challenging anything that ANYONE here has related out of their direct experience (for example, John MacGregor's posts). What I was intending to say was that here on the forum we do engage in speculation about things like cost of the recent small programs M had - no one here, as far as I know, has the facts on that. Although some people here went or were invited to the programs, no one organized one, so there was a lot of speculation about where the money went, why the programs were small, etc.

I asked someone who DOES know about the reasons for the small programs, and about the money, and they were able to give me a reasonably good accounting of what the donations were used for, what percentage of people actually paid the fee, etc. BTW, before people get on me for not revealing this information, I promised to keep it confidential. However, the person who told me this stuff WOULD probably post it on the forum, except for two reasons:
First, as I said, they know they'd be going against the grain here, and would likely be shouted down or not listened to - and I don't mean 'challenged', either.
Secondly, they don't want anyone looking up their IP address, since they could be identified by it.

I was glad to see Hank's post above, since I felt that he also confirmed what I said (and said it a lot better!). He said:
In that many regular posters on F7 have left K more than 5-10 years ago, much of the information of these regular posters is just plain old, no offense, guys and gals…Many current premies and exes have all the latest info and the context needed to understand all the new info coming out, but are afraid to post, so there's a trade-off. Except for our Johnny Mac.

Thanks, Hank, and also thanks for clearing up the misconception about the different kinds of training. I would add that even if you left six months ago, some of your information is out-of-date because of the current changes in EV, etc.

Now, going back to my previous post that also caused a lot of fervor - about the trainings,and the fact that some people experienced something different that what John Mac wrote about. This post and the portion of the post above that caused so many problems were obtained from information that people told me in confidence. In retrospect, I realize that I should have kept my mouth shut and not mentioned anything. I apologize for bringing the subject of the trainings up when I wasn't at liberty to post further. My only justification for this was that I was alarmed by some of the speculation on this forum about suicide, etc. as a result of the trainings, and wanted to say that that some people didn't think premies were about to kill themselves in large numbers.

My statement was NOT meant to discredit John - I fully believe his post - and was NOT meant as any kind of apologist view of the trainings. I was relaying information gained from others. My personal opinion is that the trainings were mishandled (in some cases worse than others), that the groups involved were way too large for the kinds of techniques used, and that either the facilitators or M didn't fully understand what the results of the techniques were supposed to be - or didn't communicate it adequately to many of the participants.

As I said in my post to Joe - the very one that the infamous quote came from - there is also a huge conflict between the 'no leaders' concept, and the concept of M as ultimate leader. It would be helpful if people would go back and read my entire conversation with Joe, rather than the one quote (which came from my FIRST post in the thread, not the last one) in order to get a better idea of what we were talking about. I think it's now in the archives.

One final point - because of our past history, I try very hard not to answer posts from Jim, because we often end up getting in fights, which aren't pleasant for anyone, except maybe people who enjoy reading forum as soap opera. I don't always succeed in not answering, but I do try. It was somewhat disconcerting to have a lot of other people post, after the fact, that they also had the same questions as Jim and 'wanted to know'. It would have been helpful if these people had also posted - or had e-mailed me, or whatever. (John Brauns did, actually - thanks for that, John).

I wish you all well - and vaya con dios OR happy trails to all of you - whichever you prefer…

Katie

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:21:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Will you answer this one?
Message:
Katie,

I'm back from court. Spent the whole day cross-examining this cop who the Crown's tendered as an expert in 'Geographical Profiling' -- As if! So my hand hurts like hell. The doc said that I should see an turnaround in 48 hours otherwise .... hm.

Anyway, I was really excited about my little post to you this aft, the one I squeezed in at the office over lunch. Katie, I honestly think I'm onto something with you. I really do wish you'd consider this little theory of mine. It just might be right.

You have often said this thing about being 'cursed' with the ability to see both sides of an issue. Now, I'm not really sure what you mean by 'see'. I'd like to think that that's a prerequisite to any good discussion. You have to see the other side or else how can you say anything worthwhile, let alone persuade or be persuaded? What I think you mean, though, is something a little different than that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you mean more accurately is that you tend to feel sympathy with opposing viewpoints and, as a result, can't decide which to accept, which to reject. If there are choices to be made, you don't want to go there because of these conflicting sympathies.

Actually, I think that's a very common trait in people, especially nice ones. I know because I've experienced it myself. :) However, although this tendency might be good in terms of getting along with people, forming friendships and the like, it's nothing but in the way when discussing issues. In that case, you can't just strive for moderation and accomodation because, if you do, you're going to get stuck committing the Fallacy of the Middle all the time. You'll end up going out of your way looking for common ground, minimzing legitimate differences, unfairly subjecting truly black and white things to a pretty, but distorted, shade of sparkly grey.

I remember when I took my first Economics class. Econ 101, Microeconomics, must be a hoot to teach because it's there, at least in my experience, where students first find their strongly held convictions about fair systems of wealth creation and distribution challenged. Economic theory is suprising in many respects and it was quite an experience for me to see how if I stayed in the discussion and argued my beliefs, the theory would, at times, just tear them apart. I couldn't fault the prof. He was a nice guy just doing his thing, talking about fishermen and coconut gatherers and all those supply and demand curves. It made sense to me but, in many ways, against my firmest convictions. Thankfully, though, I needed the credits, so I stuck it out and, in the end, conceded defeat to the theory. In fact, I became an Econ major eventually.

Now some students had different reactions in class. They didn't engage the prof in much discussion. They, too, like most of us there, were initially suspect of the theory just like I was. However, because they didn't engage all the way, do the mental arm-wrestling, if you will, they never really gave up their pre-class beliefs. Capiche?

My point is that if you actually worked through some of the things we've argued about at times, like your recent post, for instance, you might persuade, you might be persuaded. But it well might be the antidote for that 'curse' of yours.

Everyone's telling me to drop this, I know, but I'm just too tempted to se if I might not strike a responsive chord in you yet. I think that you could prove to yourself, to your own satisfaction, not mine, surely, that your post was wrong. That, indeed, you must disagree with your premie friend's opinion when it comes right down to it. You can overcome the curse, Katie, by bearing through. I've experienced that in court all the time. Either I've got an argument or I don't. If I don't, something's got to give. It matters not how much I like the judge, the parties, opposing counsel. Katie, you think you and I have history? Some of these guys have daggers out for me ... you have no idea! But when it comes to the argument, you make it, you take it, you win, you lose ...

Maybe this seems like just your typical cat bite hallucinatory pontification. But I really mean it -- your 'curse' has a cure. Believe me.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:46:00 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you can't m ake the world over
Message:
Jim--there is nothing the matter with the way Katie understands people. you can't make the world--or people--over in your own image. You want katie to be like you. you want her to decide about people against an impersonal standard of black and white. it's not going to happen. and it doesnt make her wrong or you right.
you like to get things all set out and weighed and decided for wrong or right. maybe it's your lawyer training, or maybe it was in your nature to begin with, and the Law just spoke to your innate attraction to ordering existence that way.

Katie doesn't navigate the world that way. She takes people as they ask to be taken.
in reality, Jim, every individual is as far along the path of understanding, or realization, or wisdom, as they can possibly be, for the moment. You can't demand-or command- that at a signal, they all fall in and toe the mark and line up in formation with your definition of what's right and what's wrong.

maybe the endless trouble you seem to have with her is actually biological. katie is a woman. her brain is wired as women's brains are: networked, versatile, intercommunicating, and set for human relationships.
you have a man's brains. it's genetically wired for direct logic, making decisions, action, not looking back, defending what decision you do make. it is not good with relationships and nonverbal nuances and cues.
it is quite futile for you to keep hounding after this issue. would you like all the world to be male? i dont think so.
this isnt some fluff i am basing this on. the research papers are there, the studies as well.

let go of it. there is no reward to dragging her over to your side of the line. the recriminations, the accusations, the pointless targeting, all waste our time and the time of witnesses to the fights. who needs trolls, when we have Jim and Katie going at it again?

if you were a tree, would you want to make everything else in the world a tree, like you?
if you were a dog?
a bird?

a premie?
gotcha.

no one, anywhere, has to answer to your challenges. and their opting not to is not cowardice or fear. they have a different mission in life. an entirely different way of listening to the people around them.

I mean, don't you get your fill of persuasion in your job, Jim? do you have to keep at it when you come home, too?

if this is the only way you can interrelate with humans, you're gonna be in big trouble when you sire your own children.
especially female children.
i would love to watch you try to rationally reason with a baby. or a toddler. or a wiseass 8 year old.
save me a seat. I wanna be there.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:24:13 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Please Consider This... -)
Message:
Re: a few of your comments:

BTW, before people get on me for not revealing this information, I promised to keep it confidential. However, the person who told me this stuff WOULD probably post it on the forum, except for two reasons:

First, as I said, they know they'd be going against the grain here, and would likely be shouted down or not listened to - and I don't mean 'challenged', either.

Secondly, they don't want anyone looking up their IP address, since they could be identified by it.

Since this forum is in a print medium, it is not actually possible for anyone to be ''shouted down''. It appears in print, and is here for everyone to see. Shouting down means someone is prevented from speaking. People may disagree with what someone posts here, but that is not the same as ''shouting down''.

And When you say ''...shouted down or not listened to - and I don't mean 'challenged', either.'', what are you saying? Again, in this medium, it's not possible to ''not listen''; if it was read, it was ''heard''. It seems that when you say ''not listened to'' you mean ''disagreed with'', which would imply ''challenged''. So if you don't mean ''challenged'', what do you mean? Sorry, but what you're saying here just isn't making sense.

As for your source being worried about their IP number being traced, that need not be a problem. Premies often have a trusted friend (like yourself?) post things for them. The same could be done in this instance, could it not?

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:40:53 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: You did it again, Katie
Message:
You said about your infamous post: ''This post and the portion of the post above that caused so many problems were obtained from information that people told me in confidence. In retrospect, I realize that I should have kept my mouth shut and not mentioned anything. I apologize for bringing the subject of the trainings up when I wasn't at liberty to post further....''

And in this new post of yours you say: ''I asked someone who DOES know about the reasons for the small programs, and about the money, and they were able to give me a reasonably good accounting of what the donations were used for, what percentage of people actually paid the fee, etc. BTW, before people get on me for not revealing this information, I promised to keep it confidential.''

You did it again, Katie. Why mention another piece of confidential info when you are not prepared to elaborate? What game are you playing? I think you are just trying to make yourself out to look more important than you are.

Then you say to Hank about his report on the Trainings: ''I would add that even if you left six months ago, some of your information is out-of-date because of the current changes in EV, etc.''

That's another hint that you know something that us poor peons don't in spite of the fact that Hank left recently and you ages ago. Perhaps cozying up to premies will get you more info about the cult than we are privy to but I doubt it. I think that all you are being fed by your premie friends is cult apologist spin.

And this paragraph absolutely stunned me when you said: ''My personal opinion is that the trainings were mishandled (in some cases worse than others), that the groups involved were way too large for the kinds of techniques used, and that either the facilitators or M didn't fully understand what the results of the techniques were supposed to be - or didn't communicate it adequately to many of the participants.''

Are you sure you haven't gone back into the cult? This stuff sounds like pure cult spin: ''...the trainings were mishandled...'' and ''...M didn't fully understand what the results of the techniques were supposed to be...''

We really are not talking about real estate training seminars here. We are talking about a primitive superstitious fanatically religious cult no matter how much it looks like a sweet New Age religion from the outside. Our objections are not that the trainings were ''mishandled'' but that they even took place.

I cannot believe that you have taken a really good look at the potential consequences of the game that you are playing. Are you simply trying to hold onto the status that you had as Queen of EPO? I can't believe that you are playing the appeaser towards premies for altruistic reasons. Sorry, I'm a skeptic and believe that we are all acting from self-interest and in your case I am beginning to suspect self-aggrandizement as a motive as well.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 21:20:24 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.co,
To: PatC
Subject: Re: You did it again, Katie
Message:
Right on Patrick - I'm right with you on this one!
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:10:14 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: pat and modey-nope!
Message:
you guys are trying to do the same thing to katie that JIm used to do to SHP. as hard as it may be for you to countenance, some people actually do not judge others so much as accompany them, listen, sympathize and walk the road as a fellow traveler. not everyo regards the human race in terms of 'are you with us or against us?' they actually like their fellow humans, and seek to share, but not alienate. it is a big world, with a lot yet unexplored. their motives are high ones, not self aggrandizing. both of you were just now astoundingly cruel, in attempting to explain or characterize her by using that as an account!

did it ever occur to either of you that katie may have gotten excited that she knew something and started to talk before she realized she couldn't go through with it? did it ever occur to you that her motives might be utterly clean and not driven by anything but natural impulse and sincere relating??

I don't like the color of the streaks I just now saw revealed in your posts at all. I thought I liked you two. Maybe I was mistaken!

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 13:58:27 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: You're partly right, Janet
Message:
I do realize that we are all different and last night was thinking that some people really have to be loved or at least liked by everyone and therefore hesitate to take strong positions because it may alienate someone's affections. In fact I used to be a lot like that.

I've only ever argued with Katie on two occassions and that was because I felt the topics were more important than hurt feelings. But I have made my point and have no intention of rubbing salt into wounds. My intention never is to convert someone to my POV but simply to clarify my POV and let others judge for themselves.

I truly hope that no one gets hurt but that does sometimes happen. We've all been hurt by each other here at one time or another and have criticised and argued with each other. No one is immune to criticism if it is fair but, as I said, it is not in my nature to rub salt into wounds so I don't have anymore to add to this debate and I hope that Katie sees that I have not been motivated by cruelty.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:25:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Please, Katie
Message:
I have been trying to figure out why people got so upset about this. I read it over and over again - and still had problems. I suppose people thought I was challenging the whole basis of this forum - and once again, I realize that my statement was too generalized (in other words, I should have used qualifiers.) I apologize for that - it resulted from trying to talk about something which I had been asked to keep confidential without revealing too much.

You ADOPTED your friend's comments admittedly conscious, even, that you would draw flak as a result. You didn't misspeak so much as misthink.

Katie, I really, really, really don't want to be your 'enemy'. I never wanted that with anyone here. But I'm just calling 'em like I see 'em.

Now, I'd be happy to dsicuss this with you as civilly as one might ever imagine but we SHOULD discuss it, get it all out in the open. That's healthy, no? Sorry I didn't even see your post before I had to run off to court. I'm late as it is.

So, please respond to this one specific question above and I'll give you a more thorough and deserving reply later.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:00:27 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fucking drop it!!!!
Message:
It is out in the open!
And no, hashing this out again IS NOT HEALTHY!
Jim, your words hurt her! Please agree to disagree.

'A more through and deserving reply'? My God, then get a room you two!
Or maybe some boxing gloves and lots of padding.

Give it a rest. This is my two cents so now, and I'm saying this so you don't have to Jim:

I'm going to Fuck Off!

Tonette

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:24:51 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Tonette...I agree...
Message:
I am so sick of this Jim/Katie, Katie/Jim thing I could puke.

How many times do we have to be subjected to this? Don't we have bigger fish to fry?

Hope you're okay, Tonette. Me? I'm a bit pissed and frustrated over this whole discussion.

Now, why is Maharji giving darshan again....money only? No...he wants to save Amaroo so he can have his Jim Jones style retreat.

My 0 cents,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 17:00:26 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I think you are right Cynthia
Message:
Makes me want to puke too. How many years has it been going on?

Regarding the money, f course, since M doesn't disclose any financial informaton, we are left with speculation, just like Katie said.

Anyhow, I think based on what MacGregor said about the dire financial situation at Amaroo, that latest tour netted up to $500K to help stem the financial bleeding down under.

For some reason, M has always wanted some kind of festival compound. He talked about it for years, and I think he got that from his father who had Prem Negar, which was a big compound. Of course, Sat Pal owns that now.

So, he wants to hold on to Amaroo. I think part of the problem is that he has no idea the way most people have to live, and that most premies couldn't afford to go to Amaroo, let alone pay $800 registration fees, more than once every five years, and some not at all, and there aren't enough Australian premies to support it either.

Nobody receives knowledge there, so people fly to the remote corner of the world to sit in a field and listen to M say the same stuff they can see on a video.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:52:58 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: M is DEFINATELY up to something!
Message:
He hasn't given this many programs in the US in a decade. Yes, I think part of it is about money but it always is. No, He's after something more.
I think he's testing the waters and making a list of who exactly, he has left here in the good old USA who actually has some money. Americans are rich by world standards. M is too lazy to go to all this trouble for nothing. It interfers with his drinking time.
Perhaps he's having a mid-life crisis.
Finanically troubled.
Depressed and needs the dose of adoration.
He's definately taking stock of his flock though. That much to me is obvious. But what is he really up to?
He's attached to Amaroo, that much is true. He loves that piece of rock encrusted badland. Shit, there's not even any water or surf around but well, what the hell, beauty is in the eye of the be-holder after all.
M is up to something. A big push is on for now. He may retreat into his cave if the most recent programs generated enough money for the time being but like a bad virus; he'll be back. I wish there was a vaccine for the likes of him.
In school, in addition to teaching about the perils of drugs, morally, the children should be taught about cults as well. Well, I've taught my children. But when one looks seriously at cults, no one is immune unless they have knowledge about how they operate. Take the Taliban for instance. And extremist Islam. M operates in the same manner. The parrallels to the indoctrimation is shocking!
Yes, this cult is escalating for the inevitable destruction. Now, how close it is to coming to fruition is anybody's guess.

And no, I am not paranoid. Just calling it like I see it and I do know the history of M. M is a cult, history repeats itself.

I am worried. I have people I love who are still premies. I am worried about the ex's I know that are, in a word, fucked up, from their involvement in M's world. None of this is pretty to me. I have a husband who I wonder about, even though he's an ex. now. I definately love him and can't make sense sometimes of his evolution out of the cult. He's okay for the most part.
Listen, I am concerned enough about this mind fucking cult to keep tabs here on this forum as to what is happening. It's not over and maybe it will never be, however, I really think and feel deeply that M is dangerous, not potentially dangerous, but dangerous. I will keep a close watch.

Love and peace to you Cynthia,
Tonette

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:15:31 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: And I have a Beloved Sister...
Message:
Who is not currently involved with m, but nontheless, has not exited the cult. She's two years younger than I and my worry is that she will go back.

I have a former lover, someone who I care about, who is still in the cult. Not someone I want to re-establish a relationship with, but someone who I care about and do not want hurt by m, and his stupid Mahatmas, like Charanand.

I know what it's like to love m exclusively. I want so much to see those like me, who couldn't see anything beyond a him, to escape.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:52:11 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: WHY is this such a big deal for you??
Message:
It makes no sense to me. And don't just give me the same tired explanation again. Unless your goal is to grind Katie's nose into something, I can't see what the hell your motivation is.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:20:37 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Katie explained it.
Message:
Jim, here's the explanation of what Katie said she meant, which, by the way, was in a conversation with ME, and although I disagreed with some parts of it and said so at the time, I don't think the following is an outrageous statement that requires you to get all bent out of shape:

What I meant to say is that when the facts aren't known, then people (both here and on Life's Great) tend to guess at them from the bits of information that they do have. The tone of each forum dictates the tone of the speculation. To give a counter example of this - there has been lots of speculation in the premie world about EPO which is wrong. John Brauns and I (and Brian, when he was around) have spent tons of time correcting various premie's misapprehensions about ex-premie.org. Some of them have listened, many have not.

Of course we speculate on little information. That's why we get so thrilled when Dettmers, MacGregor, the moles and others give us actual facts. Now, granted, much of our speculation usually turns out to be pretty close to the mark, but what Katie is saying is NOT wrong.

Actually, the main reason there IS speculation is because M is so secretive and all his organs of information are basically propaganda. So, again, it's mostly his own damn fault.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:50:59 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It's true what you say, Katie
Message:
Where you (Katie) wrote:

''However, I know this person feels that there is a dominant paradigm on this forum, and that input that doesn't fit into this paradigm is either stifled or attacked. Thus it's not truly open''

That's just the way it is. This forum doesn't have a life of its own - it's just the people who are posting on it at any particular time. It's unlikely to be a halfway house where it praises Maharaji and also criticises him at the same time, not because that isn't forum policy but because the majority of posters here are not happy with Maharaji. If the majority of posters were moderately happy with Maharaji and just had a few gripes, it would be different.

But there seems to be a massive shift from believing that Maharaji is the Lord (or some such similar being) to having that illusion shattered completely and seeing that Maharaji has perpetrated a con.

There's no room for halfway measures there, after such an experience.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:48:32 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Katie...
Message:
Dear Katie,

You said:

''Now, going back to my previous post that also caused a lot of fervor - about the trainings, and the fact that some people experienced something different that what John Mac wrote about. This post and the portion of the post above that caused so many problems were obtained
from information that people told me in confidence. In retrospect, I realize that I should have kept my mouth shut and not mentioned anything. I apologize for bringing the subject of the trainings up when I wasn't at liberty to post further. My only justification for this was that I was alarmed by some of the speculation on this forum about suicide, etc. as a result of the trainings, and wanted to say that that some people didn't think they were as bad as John did.'' My emphasis.

Well, the speculations about possible suicides, as well as Maharaji's state of mind, i.e., his reclusiveness, and alcoholic behaviors, were mine mostly, and I don't apologize for them. I'm still concerned about this issue because there is a very remote area in Australia that is controlled by Maharaji called Amaroo. I had just finished reading Raven ''The Untold Story of The Rev. Jim Jones and His People'' by Tim Reiterman w/ John Jacobs, and the parallels were too stunning not to mention. I highly recommend it to you.

I stand by my comparisons between Jim Jones and Maharaji, based on John MacGregor's personal account of the Training Session he attended. In his post, MacGregor stated methods used by Maharaji and Valerio which I believe are tantamount to psychological terrorism ala Jim Jones style. Anyone who wants to post here to say things were different are fee to do so. It's an internet forum, Katie. Why the need to protect people so much? I just don't get it.

I agree, Katie, you really should have kept your mouth shut on this. There are many possibilities about why someone would not view/experience the Trainings as John M. did. Possibly dissociation? Cultic thinking? Blind worship? But how would we know when you came out with that statement?

I learned the hard way about confidentiality. When someone tells me something in confidence, I keep it in confidence. I don't write here about ''something someone told me'' hinting that I have other information, but can't say what. That's actually breaking confidence with that person, IMO. And, your statement did cause a lot of upset here.

I used to think I understood you. I guess I don't. Your post above sounds very angry to me. And as far as obtaining the password, you could have emailed Gerry for it--just like those who didn't receive it in the beginning.

Otherwise, if I offended you by speculating about your personality I appologize. Yet, I do stand by my writings about how dangerous I believe Maharaji to be to people around him, as well as premies who worship him from afar.

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:36:56 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: About the password
Message:
I sent the password to as many people as were in my address book. I knew I didn't have your's and some other peoples' email addresses so I asked folks to give the password to other exes they knew.

There was no intentionality in anyone's exclusion and I regret any hurt feelings you may have experienced because of this.

This was also coincidental with the Bad_Trans.B1 virus with which I became quite conversant. I deleted all old messages and completely cleaned out my mail program which was, in hindsight, probably unnecessary. But it sure seemed like a good idea at the time.

As far as the other stuff well, I accept you as you are, and though we've had our differences, I've had a 'change of heart' as of late so I really don't care as much anymore about other people's foibles (except the Filament, of course.)

One thing that bugs me though-sorry-is your seeming willingness to assign some legitimacy to Rawat or anything he does. AS IF these 'trainings' had any intended outcome other than to tighten Rawat's rein on his followers. This I believe is a source of much of the conflict you run up against. When you start cutting Rawat slack or, in my opinion 'over-caring' for him and some of his more jaded followers, I doubt you'll garner much support here.

Nevertheless, you've been a great and beneficial presence here and I hope you are not signing off for good. At least you'll have to stop in when I get the new software working.

Best to you and Brian too, and let me be the first to say:
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

MERRY MITHRASMAS !!!


.
.
.
.
.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:44:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks, Gerry...but
Message:
I think I WAS in your address book because I got the virus from you. Or it could have sent itself to everyone who was in your in-box, because the heading was the same as an e-mail I sent you a couple of months ago. It's OK though - I know a lot of people were/are mad at me.

Re giving Rawat credit - it's my curse to see things from both sides some times. Yes, I realize it's unpopular here - obviously (snicker).

Re posting here, we're both burned out, and not just because of the forum, although that has played a part. So I don't know - probably not, is what I'd say.

Happy winter solstice to you and Patty, and the boys.
Katie

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:45:23 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: hey gerwy, what's da Storwee? hehehe
Message:
Katie:

btw, 1) I had to email and apply to get the password, when I couldn't post.

but 2) I did receive the same blissful virus Free without applying, 2X in fact!

more conspiracy theories... Wot's da storwee? [dat's from some ol' New Joysey radio humor]

LOL

P+L,

da lil swami

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:28:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Katie, did you ever consider this?
Message:
Re giving Rawat credit - it's my curse to see things from both sides some times.

is nothing but a function of your sometimes (not always, of course) reluctance to argue your opinions out? I think they're inextricably connected. If you simply stayed at the table and discussed, in this case, why you said you agreed with your premie friend, something might give. Maybe you'd win, maybe you'd lose but the 'both sides' problem might fall away a bit.

Jim -- in good faith with tongue in front of mouth, slight behind minor overbite, nothing too serious, thanks for asking.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:20:28 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Great post, Jim
Message:
Much better than the 'I'm sooooooooo sorry' sarcastic post which drew me in to this debate:-)

John.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:58:44 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@arbitration.com
To: Jim
Subject: a point taken.
Message:
+1 counterbalances 'apology' [-1]. all even. tabula rasa -- hoho

you know, James, it's a lot about dynamics. For instance, you're well-versed in arguing your opinions. opening argument. rebuttal. making points. closing argument. verdict. appeal. reversal of judgement. victory. winners. losers. [fees! hehehe] One thing I have learned about the various legal justice systems, however, is that oftentimes the wrong side [or guilty party] actually prevails -- and truth and justice suffer, consequently, as well as the losers/victims.

Katie is well-versed in biology -- and probably in looking through a microscope in a lab, too. So, she sees other things, as well, but the microscope only has room for one viewer. She just needs to better express and share her findings, and let those conclusions rest on scientific inquiry, repeated tests, evidence, and careful analysis that will stand up to professional scrutiny.

But, in Katie's personal world, it is not necessarily about winners-losers, however, i.e. junkyard dog vs. snake etc. So, she is obviously a bit self-conscious, and perhaps not as confident in debating issues in the arena -- and understandably gets easily hurt by criticisms.

If you 2 guys could just keep the discussions to the point, the substantive issues - politely, with no fear of direct personal attacks, putdowns, twisting words, mockery, then I think you might find a middle ground. Katie is a sincere person, after all. She apparently happens to prefer less aggressive modus operandi.

Also, we can't ignore that females of the species have traditionally generally been socialized/programmed to be supportive, empathetic, nurturing, mothering. for perpetuation/survival of the species.
On the other hand, males have been socialized to be competitive, aggressive, assertive -- for the hunt/food/shelter, child-bearing mates, etc. survival of the fittest.

This is partially human biological behavior and selectivity. individual survival skills. affecting interpersonal dynamics.

so, a lil understanding and empathy go a long way.

now, as for giving Rawrat 'credit': In my opinion, if [and that's a big IF] anything good Ever came from the cult -- it was because of premies, not miragey. imo, miragey always Took TOO MUCH CREDIT, and CREdit where credit was not due. and miragey Always blamed every screwed-up thing on his subordinates, premies collectively, and other people. In all my years of involvement, I NEVER Once knew him to admit blame, guilt, bad judgement, fault, accept that the buck stops with him. And because he stole any and all credit for anything and everything, he was enabled to manipulate the Big Bucks that never stop with him, either. Without premie funding and slave labor, m. would have been back in India peddling toy planes, or something. His entire operation is based on leeching off thousands of premies, and practicing cheat/deceit with them.

So, if Katie thinks rawat deserves any 'credit', there it is!
I give m. credit for screwing up, defiling and perverting whatever kernel of truth might have been connected with the K. package and message, credit for screwing up the lives of tens of thousands of people in the process, credit for royally lying to and cheating his devotees, and credit for hideously misappropriating tens of millions of dollars in church/charity/non-profit donations. Yes, let's give Rawat That credit -- where credit IS due. [In fact, long overdue.
After the projected class action judgement, we can retain marshals and some repo-men for enforcement/collection.]

Visualize swirled peas and lentils,

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:03:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Thanks such
Message:
Such,

By the way, I'm sorry I clouded the day a bit after your important Gurucharand post. And this one is really thoughtful too. Thanks. You've made a lot of excellent observations recently. Some day perhaps we'll get a chance to play a tune or so, huh?

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:20:05 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@VH1.com
To: Jim
Subject: ok, maybe live unplugged... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:29:01 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: such
Subject: No, I'm not good enough for that :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:58:00 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: but, but, ,,but
Message:
Yeah, you're right. I sent the password to a gang mail list (two, actually) and not out of my address book. My address book (Bill's brainchild) puts every email address I receive in it and I rarely use it or even look at it.

It's easy to see both sides, actually. It's the overcaring that's the bitch. That's what you got, IMNSHO :)

What's this you got somethin' against Mithras, now? You and Brian gonna start a website? Sheesh.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:33:47 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Are you serious?
Message:
I don't know what you 2 went about, but I can imagine, though I don't believe what am reading.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 08:15:56 (EST)
From: Divine adjudicator
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Add another ten names to that
Message:
apology list and it might have some relevance.

it's about as sincere as a wart hog who wants his breakfast

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 09:58:36 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Divine adjudicator
Subject: Re: Add another ten names to that
Message:
Gee you're quick.
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 00:15:45 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Moley ...
Message:
Check out LG, Ferd(inand) - they always enjoy these 'in-fights' - they think it means the end of ex-premies!!!! LOL!!

Anna

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 00:59:33 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Moley ...
Message:
That's because flexing the main muscle is a threat to cult thinking.

So, in the premie minds, it's not safe to argue, it disturbs that feeling for good reasons, of course. They see us argue and it's a sight of death in their eyes. Do you see them post about how life's great over there or are they continuously convincing each other we are wrong about Maha and discussing our posts?

However, we survive beautifully, all the time. That can't compute for them, so they compare notes and voila! they all see the same thing. Than they subconsciously agree never to compare notes about the fact that we almost always resolve our differences and the forum grows, so apologists are happy and continue on in cult-think.

Notice how the apologists adopted the reverse revisionism over night after the SF cult gathering?

Bet you that the premies over there will drip devotional ooze all over the post now that Maha said it's okay to say that again. They never really forgot anything, it's just a blind and deaf march to the tune of the master's whims. They will move like a herd of cattle.

Interesting, I just saw 'the inner circle' again and the icons of cattle were subtly inserted into the film. Good ole Eisensteinian montage. I'm sitting here writing my paper, it's called:

The Inner Circle: Personality Cults and Cult Personalities

This forum must look hysterical to you. But you see, you can't hate a cult-leader you never loved or be angry because guru you never had disappointed you. But we can, we can be accused of hating. You non-premies really short wire their cult brains. I have to admit, I love having you guys here.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 05:08:32 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Jim vs Katie debate
Message:
Jim, maybe you and Katie have a history. All of you old-timers do. Some say that you hate her. I don't think so. I would rather say that you two disagree politically. I also don't think Katie will respond on the forum although I wish she would because it seems that her opinion counts for as much as yours here. (For instance see bill's response to your ''apology'' below.)

Personally, I see this as very political (but then I see the problem of who gets to use the bathroom first thing in the morning as poltical;) and hope that Katie will clarify her final major statement on the forum as she owes it to her fans. She said:

''I can't really answer that FOR the person, as I don't want to put words in their mouth, and I have never asked that specific question. However, I know this person feels that there is a dominant paradigm on this forum, and that input that doesn't fit into this paradigm is either stifled or attacked. Thus it's not truly 'open'. And I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but I can't disagree. On this forum, we discuss and make assumptions about a lot of things re M's world that we don't have the facts about, and there seems to be a general consensus on this forum to put the WORST possible face on things - just as premies tend to spin to put the BEST possible face on things (for example, 'Please Consider This', and similar sites.) So it's difficult for reasonable premies to come and 'discuss' because they feel the deck is already stacked against them, and very few people here are going to listen.''

I found this particularly upsetting in light of the Glasser debacle: ''On this forum, we discuss and make assumptions about a lot of things re M's world that we don't have the facts about, and there seems to be a general consensus on this forum to put the WORST possible face on things - just as premies tend to...''

I am tempted to insert at the end of that: ''...as premies tend to with the Glasser and CAC websites...'' but Katie mentions only the innocuous ones.

I don't think Katie was thinking clearly when she said that. As for exes making assumptions and not having the facts? No, no, no. Not all of us left the cult 20 years ago. Some of us saw it up close and personal as little as a few months ago like John MacGregor and a bunch of us newbies.

Yes, it's plain old politics and some of us take sides. I found this post by Scott on AG today. It was written to someone else but it also sums up my impression of the Jim vs Katie debate. Simply substitute the political words such as ''the left'' with ''ex-premie liberal.''

Scott T said: ''I think you have all the inclinations and impulses of the left, but simply don't want to expose those beliefs and attitudes to any scrutiny, so you claim to be apolitical and detached. For instance I have no idea what the following statement means: 'I don't think we will ever know the whole truth, or anything close to it, but some general issues are hard not to pick up on if you don't wear selective blinders.'''

He added: ''I don't think it's particularly healthy to be disengaged, but don't think you are. You're a pretty run of the mill romantic, or counter-enlightenment fellow traveler. That's the 'great divide,' and not the left-right thing which is just a shoddy one-dimensional invention of the French Revolution. And like most counter-enlightenment sympathizers you resist being pinned down about anything, as though that's some sort of admirable trait.''

But of course I am biased as I see eye to eye with Scott poltically. And the Jim vs Katie debate is political: ''ex-premie appeaser'' vs ''uncompromising anti-cultist.'' I know which side I am on.

Now I'm beginning to look at the ''Jim is a bully'' campaigns in a new light too.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 00:16:15 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: The Jim vs Katie debate
Message:
Pat:

I'm not sure this is entirely relevant here, but I've been thinking seriously about getting into some of the debates on the Rahdasaomi site involving David Lane. David seems to take the position that most of the gurus he knows are, in fact, quite sincere... even though it's also quite clear that they deliberately mislead people, and certainly know beyond doubt that they aren't 'godmen.' I think this counter-enlightenment stuff runs deep, and must accomodate some serious self-hynosis. (I mean, after all Kant was no dummie, and he scored a few major hits on the Enlightenment. But I digress.) The point, I think, is that we'd be damned surprised to find that they *are* sincere about anything... and so would they. I mean, it's not a very tidy world so anything's possible. But I'd love the chance to herd the sincerity from the insincerity, instead of just taking David's [David Lane's] word for it. (Not that just because someone is sincere, that they're necessarily right or even in their 'right mind.')

And from there I guess the issue drops to premies or satsangis, who must be sincere about some things and rather cynical about others... and not necessarily honest about either. Jim may be a bit of a bully in the sense that he never allows for the possibility that people might be sincere, but just exercising really poor judgment. But if we could tolerate shame then there'd be no real harm done. People would recover their self-respect pretty quickly, absent th delusions they thought necessary to preserve it. Well, I'm not sure about that last bit, but something's fucked up there and it can't be compensated for by being 'nice.' Loving maybe, but that's a whole different thing, and if there are any adepts at that they're probably performing triage someplace where they're needed alot more than here.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:03:26 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You're right - not really relevant
Message:
I mostly quoted you to point out the reasons and consequences of not arguing one's POV. Of course, we all see both sides of everything. How could we choose which side to be on if we did not? Using that as an excuse....well.

Last night all this seemed clear but tonight I think I have been too dogmatic and that I did not take into account ordinary human frailty. Like Katie, I now don't feel like pushing my point lest I cause hurt feelings so I will back off from this subject.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:50:16 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Agree! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 07:23:31 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: Pat - you said it just right !
Message:
IMO some folk here haven't got out of the mind-set of looking for a guru. So they project that role onto Jim... and then shoot him down. This place is an ex premie forum. Of course it is also a democracy - so ''ex-premie appeasers'' are free to say what they like, BUT ''uncompromising anti-cultists'' will, justifiably, challenge them all the way.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 03:22:52 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Commendable !
Message:
I have stayed out of this debate because being a relative newcomer here I did not have sufficient facts and background to submit a credible comment on the issue.

I will however clearly recognize and acknowledge an honest gesture to lay past matters to rest here with a genuine apology extended on your part Jim.

For that I commend you on taking the first step Jim, You not only have a great head on your shoulders for dissecting bollocks and argument you have shown a good heart as well.

I have appreciated both your's and Katie's input on the forum and I hope that your apology is accepted by her, you both have too much to say to the ex-premie issue to remain alienated by personal differences.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:02:54 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Yes, Bravo!
Message:
I second that, Brian. Jim does have a good heart in addition to his formidable debating skills.

John.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 00:59:21 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: My apology to Katie
Message:
got a call tonight from a premie who went to NY program and is all
blissed out. The old devotional bhakti lord of the universe
bells are ringing again apparently.
Great old friend, but I had to tell her I would call back later.
To give me time to think about her.
She wasnt on my short list of things to deal with in the m world.
There she is, an example of someone who gets what appears to be a positive from the old cult programming being recharged.
Not wanting to unfairly negative, I came to the forum hoping to get
'clear' on the issue of what to say to her, only to have your capitulation hopelessly muddle the issue for me.

I do hope she appreciates that NOW it is time for m to finally thing about his OWN needs. As he said, he has ONLY been spreading the knowledge, and hell, since Raja Ji says it is now time for M, then by golly it is finally time for M.
I dont want to be unfairly negative of course, but seems like it has ALWAYS been just about him and his desires and demands.

He does have non premie freinds you know, and non premie business freinds and partners you know, and aviation peers,
MAY THE LORDS PRIVATE LIFE ALWAYS REMAIN PRIVATE!
None of our business you know!
Wouldnt want to upset THAT applecart!

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 08:24:11 (EST)
From: Klaus Webber
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: My apology to Katie
Message:
I just went to a program too Bill and I can assure you it has nothing to do with cult. It is about our owne journey and our attitude to that. he is a wise speaker and fills the heart with love and hope. No way I'm afraid Bill that I can describe such thing to you! But you will have no very good word to tel your friend who may be inspired now.mind and heart can never talk like that.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 20:46:36 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Klaus Webber
Subject: Troll that who said crap to ABI
Message:
Don't give the asshole the time of day. Shit! There I go, being unhospitable. Gee! Why can't I be nice to new posters. Now, he may not comfortable posting here.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:53:25 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Klaus Webber
Subject: Don't think you can assure us Klaus
Message:
but I and presumably others would be interested in hearing about the night.

Lots of details please.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:44:16 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Klaus Webber
Subject: Hey Santi Klaus
Message:
I just went to a program too Bill and I can assure you it has nothing to do with cult. It is about our owne journey and our attitude to that. he is a wise speaker and fills the heart with love and hope. No way I'm afraid Bill that I can describe such thing to you! But you will have no very good word to tel your friend who may be inspired now.mind and heart can never talk like that.


---

The heart and mind do indeed communicate, all the time, in fact. The heart has a neural equivalency the size of the brain's cortex and is connected to the brain by the Vagus nerve and also through nerves running up the spinal chord.

Incidentally, doctors have no way of reconnecting these nerves in heart transplant operations but the heart still maintains its own impulse to beat because of it's neural capacity.

The heart 'brain' as it were, influences and communicates with the brain's mind and the two can have a little chat, so to speak. It's a matter of knowing how to connect to this heart intelligence.

I can refer you to further information if you'd like.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:56:50 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Wow , what a Bio Logical breakdown Gerry [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 08:31:26 (EST)
From: Klaus
Email: None
To: Klaus Webber
Subject: Re: Me
Message:
I guess I introduce myself if not rude.

My name is Klaus Rene Webber, I am an international business man who owns and runs an internet company based in Bonn. I travel often to see M and am a major donor (so I guess not too popular here!) but have other interest in shipping and motor sport. I count Maharaji as a friend and we hang out together when he is in Europe. I am curious as to why he is attacked by those here.

greetings Bill.

K

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:03:31 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Klaus
Subject: The information is on the web
Message:
Read the site above. There is a lot of information and no need to rehash it here.
[ Ex-premie.org ]
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:53:03 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Klaus
Subject: Welcome, Klaus
Message:
I think your popularity here will depend more on your honesty and sincerity rather than the size of your pocketbook.

I image Prem Rawat could be good company. Do you see him as you would any other friend?

Why is he attacked here? You're joking, right? Have you read the ex-premie website and people's written account of their time in the cult? They are referred to as 'Journies'on the ex-premie website.

There's a link to ex-premie.org at the top of the page. Take the time to read about some things you might not know about your friend.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 03:41:19 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@golf_flagellants.com
To: bill
Subject: what Charananananand told me
Message:
r.e. da lard's private life = None of our business!

When I still considered myself a premie, several years ago: mahatmaji and i were crusing around in the car one evening - he had a cold and was getting cranky [i also didn't know how much he wanted some wine to drink].

Anyway, I said something harmless like, 'Gee, it must be great being around maharaji a lot. What's it like?'

Charananand suddenly snapped, 'Maharaji's personal life is Nobody's business!!!'

[whew, what set Him off? what was That all about? perhaps I should rephrase this...]

'No, I didn't mean anything by that, mahatmaji. Well, it must be really inspiring to be around him, right?'

Charananand replied, 'Maharaji's smart.'

[ok, so maharaji's smart. that's it? ok, what else?]

'I mean, you know, the energy must be really high and intense being around maharaji.'

'Maharaji's very smart.'

[then an awkward silent pregnant pause...ok, whatever. that was the long and short end of that topic. then, onto another subject of conversation...]

(Later, I thought about that brief and uncomfortable segment of conversation. Why was my respected friend so paranoid and defensive about anything pertaining to maharaji's personal life, and why when I alluded to maharaji's rumored spiritual energy did mahatmaji simply respond with 'Maharaji's smart,' that's it? kaboom.)

...I changed the subject:

'mahatmaji, so, how are you doing?'

Charananand: 'when the end comes, I hope it comes soon...'

[what's he talking about? something Big, or perhaps he's really ill. No, maybe he's just a lil depressed. i'll cheer him up.]

'C'mon, don't talk that way. Here, listen to these bhajans by Jagit Singh. [singing...]

Charananand: 'When the end comes, I hope it comes soon.'

---

---

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Go figure. Read between the lines...

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 18:19:55 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@_Arbitration.org
To: such
Subject: above lost amidst the bickering
Message:
above post lost amidst the bickering

meanwhile,

love lost amidst bickering

Q: when is an apology Not an apology? A: when it makes excuses, justifies -- or is downright disingenuous, facetious, or another back-handed slap.

Q: when does whining start looking like a martyr act? A: when it recurs ad nauseum.

Q: when does the slam-dance [er, tango] end? A: when the music's over, or the 2 partners disengage -- or when they learn how to dance together without stepping all over each other's toes.

C'mon awweddy, guys! sheesh...

ok, it's Latvian Polka time! Choose your partners. [to the band: a vun and a 2...] LOL

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 01:41:11 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: The Fifth Technique
Message:
Bill:

I think Jim was practicing the fifth technique here (tongue firmly planted in cheek). I assume Jim will correct me if I'm wrong.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:04:55 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: The Fifth Technique
Message:
And I think so was Charananand (as told by such in his wonderful segue above) but in a more sinister way and with far different motives than Jim's.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:53:48 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: fessin' up:
Message:
true story.

peace + lentils,

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:11:06 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: M Apologist Websites/Charles Glasser Jr.
Message:
Interesting.

It appears that all references in any of the websites premies have set up to ex-premies criticizing Maharaji on the Internet have vanished. Please Consider This was taken down, practically mid-sentence. Erika Andersen posted an 'article' and the site was gone literally days later with the authors claiming victory and the need to think about what to do next. They also said that their website was inadvertently bringing too much attention to what the critics were saying.

It Ain't So, which was even more disparaging of Maharaji's critics, disappeared about the same time as PCT did.

The Elan Vital website dropped it's entire Press Section, so all the press releases dealing with criticisms on the Internet and the Jagdeo sexual molestation scandal are gone, as are the witnessing statements of Joan Apter, Mitch Ditkoff and others. It then dropped it's entire, embarrassing, FAQ section, which also tried to address critics, even the cute little video clip of Maharaji in which he lies about never having claimed to be God is gone.

Around the same time, the CAC-type attack websites also disappeared.

Finally, the 'Truthaboutmaharaji' website set up by Charles Glasser Jr. has been modified to drop all references to any of the Maharaji critics, and droped all references to who 'Charles' is. That somebody like Charles dropped all that self-praise about his accomplishments and how he works for a big New York law firm, is really something.

Is this all part of the new Maharaji PR program? It is just way too coincidental for all those changes to happen so quickly. It is particularaly astounding that the Andersens and Mitch Ditkoff would abandon their site, after what was obviously a lot of time and money that went into it, and because they were going great guns until just a few days prior to it evaportating so quickly.

So, I think they were probably told by the new PR team that Maharaji wanted them to take those sites down, or at least refrain from addressing any criticisms raised by ex-premies. That they complied says quite a lot.

Can the Andersens, Mitch Ditkoff, Pia's son and/or Charles Glasser let us know what happened?

Also, it's time to spend some time deconstructing Maharaji's website. God knows there are plenty of lies on that site as well.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 23:13:58 (EST)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: M Apologist Websites/Charles Glasser Jr.
Message:
i'm surprised they lasted this long. m's constant media strategy was to ignore critics, pretend they do not exist...not call any attention to them...the ole elephant ignoring the dogs barking story, remember.

this dismantling goes hand in hand with the 'appointment tour' he has been doing. reinvigorating the up close and personal cult...makes sense to me...

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:08:10 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: ignoring the dogs barking
Message:
Exactly. Word has also probably gone out on EV first-class email not to engage the exes anymore. Even the mischievous cult imps are missing from the forum.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:22:42 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: That will only peak curiosity
Message:
more by making those directives you would think. Maybe not the hardcore hope to die handicapped headcases, but for many of the other segments of premie land this kind of announcement might not only invite inquiry but could also arouse curiosity.

Word has also probably gone out on EV first-class email not to engage the exes anymore.

Here again if true, another classic example of the cult shooting holes in itself.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 01:05:30 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: M Apologist Websites/Charles Glasser Jr.
Message:
The shopping section and trinkets will also disappear is my guess.
Too late, ALL the stuff is in the forum archives.
We can recreate it if we want.
He is hoping to give us no targets, no such luck!
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 00:43:24 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: yep, classic cult s.o.p.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 23:25:01 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Question to you Mike
Message:
Am I wrong to say that the devotional sappy shit went out of style in the inner circle. The malibu premies I met were very adamant on how Maha only wanted to be around the mature premies. My up close and personal encounter seemed to verify that.

And, if some of the mature premies, swallowed the revisionism about the lord crap, do you think they'll be able to revert back to the old paradigm. For example, some premie kept referring to him as my lord in SF? What's that about?

I think Maha is burning the candle at both ends on this last one. I think the 'group' that Maha cultivated, i.e. professionals and Richy Richs are going to have a huge brain fart. What do you think?

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 01:21:09 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Question to you Mike
Message:
Hi Deborah,
Could you email at
bill52 at rocketmail.com
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:18:04 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: stars@uvic.ca
To: bill
Subject: Email is not going through
Message:
I think an email went throught last week. Don't know what's up with your email.

My email is enclosed.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 22:31:38 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: the error of their ways
Message:
Perhaps it is a silent admission that they made a PR mistake. But the damage is already done and wont be forgotten.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 08:12:00 (EST)
From: Perhaps you are dreaming
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: oh holy one
Message:
you're correct about damage not being forgotten though

so where you gonna go when the dust settles huh?

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:13:27 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Perhaps you are dreaming
Subject: creepy premie alert
Message:
where am I going to go...given that I live my entire life through this forum...

what I wont be doing is sticking my tongue down the back of my own throat for extended periods of time and slobbering over someones feet.

Anyone who does that must be half-mad and in desperate need of a life.

Wouldn't you say?

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 19:28:00 (EST)
From: It's Klaus Webber
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Donor and Friend of Maharaji--not a nice guy [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 10:51:10 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Perhaps you are dreaming
Subject: Cryptic troll alert..? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:08:17 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Well you and Jim did such a good job!
Message:
Joe,

You and Jim were the main ones who kept doing well reasoned point by points on stuff posted on the other websites. As I recall, Nige did some, and perhaps Patrick Wilson. I think their websites were free advertisement for EPO and F7, and certainly at least got people curious as to what people here were saying.

On top of everything else that was here, you guys refuted and blew holes in so many of the ridiculous non-arguments and straw man arguments going on over there. Not to mention the accusation that crazed drug fiends who have left the Master sat at computers, foaming at the mouth in the dead of night, raving on the Internet. They made it sound so ... so ... tabloid.

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to come up with EPO or Forum posts in the search engines once someone gets their curiosity up. Of course, even if they ignore us, EPO and the Forum is still here, and in the first bunch of hits on many search engines!

Tough noogies guru ji. Boiling shriek, I got burned.

--f

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 23:47:25 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: That makes sense
Message:
Right. I guess they figure the damage has been done, and they at least might try to refrain from aggravating the situation. True, EPO is still there, but at least they aren't pointing big arrows at EPO without ever using the actual name.

Thanks, Francesca

Joe, the crazed drug fiend

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:14:13 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Boiling shriek - fab phrase Fran !nt
Message:
xx
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:34:14 (EST)
From: Nigelandmoley
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: True, Joe...
Message:
and reinforces the point I made below about rawatweilers turned poodles..

Funny thing is, we just checked out the Glasser site, and with the personal detail and ad hominems removed, the place still reads like the ravings of a soft vegetable after too long cooking in a primordial vegan soup (or something - it's late and the metaphors ain't flowing just so..)

So driven is the Hate Club, that they have made disgusting 'deals with the Devil.' One Hate Club leader is now being paid to track Maharaji by a racist, anti-religious movement which has been condemned internationally by feminists, Catholics, Jews, Muslims and even the United States Congress. In France, one of these people actually got on the radio and encouraged listeners to phone in bomb threats. But the harassment goes from the global to the local. I ought to know. After this website first appeared, I was harassed at work, got threatening e-mail, they published my picture and phone number world-wide on the Internet to encourage others to abuse me and much more. Those decent people who condemned this were bloodied and badgered by the Hate Club until they finally left. (On the bright side, I've gotten letters from several who are practicing Knowledge again!).

(Moles says it's probably her who a couple of months back was leading CG a merry dance about practising again... Moley: well wot could I do? - he was pretty damn sexy in that photo.. never could resist that blues-man/haiwaian shirt/phallic-guitar/baggy pants thang... uuummmh )

Still pretty strong stuff, though, and potentially embarrassing for the cult, I would think.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:50:43 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigelandmoley
Subject: You are looking at the OLD site.
Message:
That section you quoted has now been removed from Glasser's site. Are you looking at an older version of his website?

Also, Nigel, is it true that you played in a band that was the predecessor of Level 42? I was told this by a Darwin enthusiast who thinks you should not have left the band when you did.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:09:15 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Who told you that? I'll sue...
Message:
re. Glasser - we have repeatedly hit the 'refresh' button, but still get the hate club stuff.

re. Level 42: yes it's sadly true. I played in a succession of early bands incorporating three of the four original mambers, dating from our schooldays. (Mark 'thumberthumbs' King was actually a drummer before he switched to bass). In fact, it is only because the bass player in the last of these bands happened to be a f****** premie, that I walked away from all that to go get Knowledge, otherwise I might be a millionaire by now. Having said that - I HATED Level 42. So maybe I have at least one thing to be grateful for in this life (apart from meeting my Moley).

Anyway, who told you this? You have either been talking to Jim or my co-founder of Friends of Darwin, Richard Carter. I suspect the latter, though it was only an hour ago I mentioned this Level 42 stuff to Jim in an email - but I never had him down as much of a gossip...

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 23:51:16 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: No, Nigel it's gone
Message:
You must be looking at an older version on line. Are you using an old bookmark? The 'hate club' stuff is definitely gone.

It was from your co-founder that I heard about Level 42. It wasn't from Jim. I can't really remember anything Level 42 did, except they were part of that strange early 80s blandness.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 05:56:44 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Lessons in Love, comes to mind
Message:
as one of level 42's bigger hits, the only reason I remember that cut is because a few years back I played Bass in a group and we covered that tune.

I had to learn that formidible and challenging Mark 'thunderthumbs' King Bass line. I loved playing that tune, The Bass in lessons in love really carried the song.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 11:12:50 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: You're sure up early...
Message:
I just sent you an email.

Patty wants to learn bass. Oh boy! I know what she gets for Mithrasmas.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:39:12 (EST)
From: Kev
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Level 42
Message:
Hi Nigel,
As a matter of interest do you know Rychard Bennett from the Isle of Wight who was also in Level 42 before they were Level 42. Also became a Premie.
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:58:45 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Kev
Subject: That's the very same bastard...
Message:
Lovely bloke and very first Isle of Wight co-ordinator, when the entire community consisted of him, his three sisters, his mum, his girlfriend and me (we last two were the very first aspirants). BTW: sorry I never replied to your email a couple of months back, Kev - I lost it in a mailbox explosion. Rich giving me satsang during intervals in this bar we used to play in turned my life around. I often wonder how I would have turned out if that chance meeting had never happened... (sigh)..but, as I said in my birthday post lower down, there are many more ways of being dead or fucked-up than being alive and healthy, so I am happy the way things have turned out eventually - once the last shred of cult-think was expelled from my system.

BTW: it's spelt 'Richard' - unless he has more recently opted for a pseudo-archaic formulation. He was also the part-time initiator I mentioned visiting mid-eighties in my Journeys post - just before his ilk were abolished. In fact, I might be the one and only 'Knowledge review' he ever administered. Actually, up to now I have avoided mentioning any of these people by name, because I like them and wouldn't want to unnecessarily upset them - but then, I don't think I have said anything defamatory about any of those old Isle of Wight premies, and, in spite of everything I now believe, I'd love to make contact with any of them for old times' sake. Last I heard about Richard he was in Amsterdam and back into playing bass - mid-nineties, or so..

(Hey Dave Brian - are you out there?)

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:16:58 (EST)
From: Meanwood Meanie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: And does Jon Cainer have a voice?
Message:
If so, perhaps he could tell us about his part in the CAC site.

MM

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:44:02 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Meanwood Meanie
Subject: Does Jon Cainer have Pluto up Uranus??nt
Message:
Sorry - in rude mood. He's shit at astrology. And who are you???
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:45:50 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Crainer involved with CAC?
Message:
The nerve of the K Webber guy to rub out history,& the folly if he thinks anyone can really call the inscrutable spoilt brat incarnation a friend.

How can you be friends with the Master?

I wonder though about him & the recent Announcement. Still, face value is all we have to go on here.

All the best : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:58:53 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes and no..
Message:
Certainly Cainer has distanced himself completely from the cult since that episode where he had a run-in with Francis Wheen of the Guardian - who even used info from EPO to justify his critical story about Cainer and square it with his editor. At the same time he was switching papers from the Mail to the Express (or vice versa - I'm losing track - they're both utter tabloid shite anyway) and hence desperate not not to let his cult-associations damage his income. He resigned from ELK at the same time. As Fleet Street's highest-earning journo (estimated £6 million pa - much of it derived from his astronomically-priced, premium-rate, astrological phone-lines) he does have a lot to lose.

As for the libel laws: I understand we are changing ours (or have done so) to put us in line with the US, ie., the burden of proof will now lie with the aggrieved party rather than the accused to establish who is lying.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 17:52:11 (EST)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: is it his ego........?
Message:
I have a question maybe someone can help me with. Several months ago, Daya told me about asking her Dad for knowledge. Apparently she asked him in December 1999
---
on his birthday. But, he didn't give her knowledge until the following March. (March isn't her birthday, so that's not why he waited.) My question is, why did he wait so long? Surely, if anyone were ever going to be 'ready', it should be someone who lived in 'the House of Knowledge' all their life. If a loved one asked me for something I were capable of giving, and I believed it was to their benefit, I would give it to them immediately. Not make them wait several months. Did his ego simply want to keep her dangling, possibly begging him for it? Daya's face was an unreadable mask when she told me about this, so I don't know what her feelings were. My gut feeling about it was that she was puzzled and hurt, but that she had to keep the 'blissful' front going. Anybody help me with what the delay might have been about. Never having asked for knowledge myself, maybe I missed something. Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:30:02 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: No, a personality defect..
Message:
He's a controlling SOB. Women, especially are beneath men and after all, daughter or not, Daya is now a woman. That's how he was raised, the prevailing culture in India. The caste system. It is alive and well within M's cult.

Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 07:29:32 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Who can tell for sure
Message:
when it comes to what goes on inside the head of someone else and what motivates their actions, m included one can only speculate.

If it is in fact true that daya got video knowledge I would wonder why? She would not be a credible example of a typical video knowledge recipient for m to hold up, what with her access and relationship to him she holds a distinct advantage in premieland.

He wants to demonstrate the benefits and features of the new product he should find a more common everyday example. Anyone apart from a close family member would do better to herald as the poster child of the video knowledge success story.

Bad marketing on his part, but then propagation seems to be a stagnant issue with the cult anyway, he spends most of his time today preaching to the choir.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 22:03:41 (EST)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Timmi..Very Interesting..
Message:
Timmi, when last i talked with you...you were really going thru it about having a husband who is still a premie...I hope you have found some answers and some peace for yourself there...

Im very curious about your relationship with Daya...I would love to know more about her and what she is really like and how she views Maharaji. Can you shed any light on that for me?....All the Best to You...RichMandrake

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 22:21:07 (EST)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Re: Timmi..Very Interesting..
Message:
Rich, do I have your e-mail address? Some of this I'd prefer to discuss via e-mail, and then maybe post it. Thanks.
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:36:27 (EST)
From: Anybody
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: You missed something
Message:
but now you're missing a lot more

it's called time

Your life

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:22:42 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Anybody
Subject: Troll alert... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:10:58 (EST)
From: peg
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: is it his ego........?
Message:
Are you a pam or what? How come you chat to Daya? This is one hell of a wierd world I think.

I would love to know the answer to your question but I suppose the one person who could really answer will never be seen posting on this forum.

Are you married to a premie still. So am I.

peg

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:21:43 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: peg
Subject: Hope Timmi doesn't mind, but ...
Message:
she has told me a bit about her connection to Daya, and it is one hell of a weird world, I agree. ;)
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:25:30 (EST)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: peg
Subject: Re: is it his ego........?
Message:
Nope, not a PAM. Thank heavens! And, the way I met Daya is sort of a round-about story. Yes, still married to a premie. How's it going? Did you e-mail me, by any chance?
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 05:34:54 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Not me.
Message:
No it was not me. I hope no one's been taking my name in vain.

Its going OK but I long for a non-cyber companion on this journey back to normality.

Peg

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 18:34:56 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: is it his ego........?
Message:
Might have been because she was the first one to receive knowledge via autoknowledge cd/video. Maybe it wasn't ready yet, and he wanted her to have the distinction of that honor cuz he mentioned it.
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 18:36:59 (EST)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: is it his ego........?
Message:
Could be. She didn't mention that it was an autoknowledge session. I had rather the opposite impression from her. But, as I say, I'm not sure about that.
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:05:04 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: is it his ego........?
Message:
He was there, of course. But I remember at the Santa Monica event, he talked about it. If anyone else was there, maybe they can remember better. He was proud of the autoknowledge thing, saying it cleared the road for all the future perfect masters. And that it worked really well for Daya, which brought laughs. I thought it was weird at the time, because he had talked about when Wadi got knowledge and how Marolyn was there and how sweet Wadi was. Then it sounded so cold, this autoknowledge thing, but I think it was, to him, just the opposite. She had the distinction of this great, new, never in the history of the world of perfect masters, technology. And it was his pet project.
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:17:58 (EST)
From: peg
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: is it his ego........??
Message:
You sound as if you have an affection for the old chap. Is that right. I would like one day to be in that position... having some positive feeling but detached. At the moment I can't afford to still sorting myself and my own position with god, cults and gurus etc.

Peg

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:04:00 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: peg
Subject: Re: is it his ego........???????????
Message:
I have an affection for that particular moment in time, fairy tale that it was. It was the last program I attended. I can look back on it with honesty. I honestly put every fiber of my being into it, arriving early to do service, putting up with rude, nasty people who claimed we were all a team and then ignored any logic or common sense.

I have an affection for what Maharaji was to me, for nearly thirty years. An apparition, a fairytale, a fantasy. Call it what you will. I'm just learning to live with what belongs to me verses what I was convinced was courtesy of knowledge and m.

What occured to me today is that inane saying 'Even in your darkest hourI will never leave you', or however the hell it goes.

He did leave me. In my most darkest of hours.

But did anyone call me and say 'Hey, wait a minute, what's going on? You've been here for nearly thirty years, little faithful devotee?' Did Maharaji call me, he has my number just like he has everyone's number who is on First Class, and say, 'Hey Vicki, this must be your darkest hour, how can I help you?' Nope. Just Visions wanting the Michael Nouri video that I didn't have.

So in my darkest days and nights, when I thought I was losing my body, mind and soul to despair, he deserted me. Now I know premies will rise to the defense and say, 'No, you brought this on yourself.'

How did I bring this on myself? Did I force Maharaji to eat meat, sleep with premie women, have an ongoing adulterous affair, drink alcohol, do drugs, take premies money and spend it lavishly, lie about not saying he was the lord? Did I think up these things to believe in, because every thing he's done, I can find a satsang of him telling us not to. Have to go back a ways, but it's there.

I probably could have gotten over all of it. Infact, reading what he and his family, pams, mahatma's and initiators were really up to all these years almost turns into a dark comedy, if so many people wouldn't have been hurt physically, financially, emotionally and spiritually. But I couldn't reconcile his treatment, actually lack of, to Abi and Susan and the others. There is no way to justify one scrap of M or knowledge at their expense. And that's what anyone who begs to kiss his feet is doing.

Do I hate him? No. I could sit in a room and have a very rational, talk with him. I'd listen. If what he had to say rectified the situations he's created.

He can't have it both ways. He can't say he's not the lord and then not be accountable for helping. He can't say he is the lord, and not have been there to help Abi. Even in your darkest hour.....I'm fairly sure that was her darkest hour.

Did he call any of the exe's in their darkest hours? No, but CAC certainly made some hours even darker.

So there it is Peg

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:44:43 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: the last program
Message:
I ws at that same santa monica program--april 25th, the unveiling of autoknowledge.
read my journey--oh wait--brian replaced it with a newer entry. shit.
wherabouts are you, vicki? Im in los angeles. we could get together or something if you live near here. I have yet to meet another ex in person since I left. apparently you and I walked away from the same day for the same reasons. that's a hell of a point in common. how often does that happen?
i exed here officially in october of 2000, but i count my snapping date as that program in SM.

you can write me at
mensabrains@webtv.net
or call me if you're close by
at 310-399-3329

this should be interesting.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 09:58:31 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: the last program
Message:
Hi Janet,
No, I don't live in LA. Unfortunately, I wasn't smart enough to snap at that program. I still kept the faith and chalked it up to rude premies that were incredibly mean. I saw a meaness that I had never seen before. Now I understand it too well but back then, it was confusing. It was so similar to Nazi mentality.

I had a family situation or I would have gone to the Thousand Oaks, Portland and some other program. But for the first time in all these years, I didn't feel guilty about not going. It was like my feet just wouldn't walk anymore. But I've always kinda been weird that way, my body reacts before I can intellectually understand something. It's the strangest warning system.

It wasn't until the Mainze (sp) pointed me here to EPO that it all fell apart for me.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 16:38:40 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Brilliant, Vicki, and Peg and Timmi..
Message:
Timmi, I have been enjoying you debates with the premies on LIG. Expect a lot of flak from them the same way JohnT gets it. They hate never-beens because they have not had the darshan juju.

Peg, I hope you find some ex to befriend off-line soon. I wish Dick were more forthcoming with you.

Vicki, you spoke for me too. That's pretty much the way I see things now. I'm so glad you post here.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 17:30:52 (EST)
From: Hank Wallerlby
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Response to Lesley's Trainings Post
Message:
Just got back from the Warden’s Office. where I had to inform him that us marsupials were relinquishing our reservation for the use of the visitor’s infirmary anteroom for our “appointment event “with M, which sadly was just cancelled by way of another loving unsigned EV e-mail. [We used the same facility for Amaroo Day last year, we raised quite a few coins…from the bottom of the wishing pond…Bole Shri….] This whole thing has finally put me over the top and I am now an ex-premie. I still love the premies from Philly and DC. They’ve been wonderful and nice to me and to be around… But it’s over! There’s nothing left really to wonder about.

Hi, everyone, from the Kids’ Petting Zoo at the world famous Philadelphia Zoological Gardens. Back in the 1970s, an event for the Philadelphia and Washington, DC premies would have turned out something like 2,500 people -- not the 450 who showed up last week at the Philly suburban wedding facility. I’m glad that that old-time Philly premie (ex?), who’s done regular service for years and who everybody locally knows for years and years, asked his direct question about whether M practices meditation. [He evidently DID speak the following five syllables: “EXPREMIEDOTORG,” so Philly Mole, like I wanted to tell you, I was right and there was no need for you to apologize.] Maharaji basically told him to get off the fence -- either you’re here and with his program or you should not be here at all. And he became one mad and upset guru. This recent series of events was filled with people verbally begging him to kiss his feet. They were jealous of those who attended the Amaroo events in the 90’s and got to do so (as well as sing Arti to him). It’s a pathetic thing. The entire bhakti trip is over, done, stick a fork in it.

What am I doing in Philly? Well, here’s my “journey.” In 1974, I was just a little joey premie, but Padarthanand agreed to let me travel in his suitcase for the 1974 Amherst, Massachusetts USA Gura Puja festival, held outdoors in the cool, summer Berkshire Mountain air. The festival featured Maharaji dancing in his jeweled Krishna crown and costume, along with his new wife, the Mother of Creation, Durga Ji, in her Krisnette outfit -- also on stage all night. (I hate to drag her into this, cause I really liked her, but….) Let’s just say visa problems landed me here at the zoo -- all the soft pretzels and Italian water ice you can eat, the Sixers on cable 82 games a year plus playoffs, and cheesesteak night every Thursday. (Oh, I still miss a good meat pie and XXXX lager, but I’m doing okay.) Except for a very clandestine trip back to Australia in 1999, detailed below, I’ve been stuck here, and will continue to do be stuck here. “What are yuz gonna do?” as they say around these parts.

I’ve been recently in contact with my Aussie cousin, Henrietta Wallaby, who pleaded with me to get online before my scam of signing on to EPO in the Warden’s office at night gets found out, and I’m off the net again -- permanently. [Which I think is going to happen soon anyway.] My cousin wanted to make clear a couple of things which she feels are murky here on F7. (I, for one, had a CACball coughed up by my hard-drive and thought that Lesley was saying that some trainees had a prostate test at the Trainings, but then I realized that she was talking about a protest after the Training.) In that many regular posters on F7 have left K more than 5-10 years ago, much of the information of these regular posters is just plain old, no offense, guys and gals. [For instance, Joe just heard bout the Arizona “resource team” meeting for wealthy donors and their $6.3 million donation. This is old news to those who’ve been around lately and seen the goings on with the seats up front for sale, the private events, private parties, etc. On the other hand, if it weren’t for posters like Joe, Marianne, Anth, etc., this forum would be empty of their passion and drive -- which are much appreciated. Many current premies and exes have all the latest info and the context needed to understand all the new info coming out, but are afraid to post, so there’s a trade-off. Except for our Johnny Mac.

I just wanted to clarify that there are three different trainings that were discussed by Lesley and others and they’ve seemed to merge somehow into a confusng mush. Please differentiate clearly between (a) THE TRAINING, which John Mac analyzed, there’s (b) the 1999 Daya’s Training, which Lesley (and yours truly) worked at, and then there are the Knowledge Information Trainings (or KITs) which are new, for all PWKs, and last two days (not five like THE TRAINING.) It was a large drip for me when I went half way around the world to be with Maharaji and do service at Daya’s in 1999 (which was to be opened during THE TRAINING which John attended), but then M changed his plans and came two weeks later. The international staff of Daya’s had to be brought in, but by the time the go-ahead was given, M had then changed his schedule. (“Decisions were made,” is how Lesley put it. [Great post, Lesley].) So, we had a “Daya’s Training.” Horrible!!!! To boot, someone stole my specific service before I ever arrived, and I had to improvise something else. The KITs are very lightweight in comparison to what goes on at the THE TRAININGS, and KITs cost only $100, whereas the big Training costs $500 - $600 plus a week’s room and board. There’s no attendance by M at the KITs, and the vibe is propagation and K-lite. Note to Pat C and others: Henrietta wanted to clarify that the cost of building Daya’s might have been in Australian Dollars -- not U.S. currency. (Therefore, 50 cents on the original dollar figure.) But she’s not sure.

Having resigned to never again being allowed to return to my native Aussie homeland has put me through profound changes, but life goes on. I’m helping with our new Joey Little League baseball team at the Zoo (and this is definitely a baseball town. GO PHILLIES!) (How Aussie Rules football has been totally forgotten by our next generation is without a doubt the great sin of my lifetime.) I’m so happy I don’t have to once again to go that dank Miami Beach Convention Center to celebrate life in the back of the hall with my little binoculars and my party hat and confetti.

Hang in there. Enjoy. Regards to all exes -- Hank Wallerby (now a PhiL.A.-ex)

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:17:13 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Hank Wallerlby
Subject: Glad to meet you Hank
Message:
Looks like you have done your homework as indicated by this great first time post you just contributed. I mean it sounds like you read the forum and the EPO site quite a bit before jumping in and when you came on board you did so using your real name.

My hats off to you Sir, for your astute and intelligent observations, you also have a unique and witty way with words.

You add a most welcome new voice to the conversation, thanks for joining in Hank.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:22:44 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Hank Wallerlby
Subject: So, Daya's only cost one million...
Message:
....and was open for how many days? Just kidding. Great post.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 02:37:48 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Hank Wallerlby
Subject: Hi Hank
Message:
Thanks. I can relate to everything you say, and that was quite some post. It's just really nice to know someone else is not going to have to sit and listen to the mighty cuckoo, and came here instead; 'the entire Bhakti trip, stick a fork it in it' kinda sums it up.

Wish I knew who you were, but I haven't a clue, am I being dense?

All the very best, Lesley

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 01:15:09 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Hank Wallerlby
Subject: Hi Hank--good to hear from you [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 00:20:14 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@freeatlast.org/y
To: Hank Wallerlby
Subject: yep,if things weren't rotten in da state
Message:
Hiya! Hank,

regarding m's bs pwk Dog Obedience School/Training:
If things weren't rotten in the world of Premmark [vs. being on the level], then he and his inner circle would NEVER have found it necessary to contrive training all the PWKs as miragey's lil doggie servant spin doctors.

feudal fascist rugu cult dogma today: hey, don't tell that person that; it violates cult p.c. rugu rules about what you're allowed, er, supposed to say. you want to be on security's bongo list, or sumptin? didn't you pay attention at the KIT training, or do you need some more regroovin from David [Adolph] Smith? I mean, like the train has pulled out of the station, and yer either on the bus or off the plane, premieji. Freedom of speech? C'mon, fer cryin' out Lard awweddy! [Oh, I am so unworthy...]

vs.

dose bliss bunny days: oh yeah, sistah, share from yer heart. I am feeling such bliss, constantly Remembering da Name... gee, I can't wait to tell my friends... oh, better stay in da here and now; wouldn't want to get 'in my mind.' ...Open up yer hearts to da universe of love, and He will fill you up, The LORD OF THE UNIVERSE has come to us this day... bolie shri... [pranam on the floor to the photo in the empty chair altar: I am so unworthy and undeserving...]

Never leave room for doubt: as shri sant Prem Balyogeshwar [aka Born Lord God of the Yogis aka SatGuru miragey rawrat} says, a mind is a terrible thing to have. So, Give me your mind, surrender the reins of your life to me -- and your money, too -- and I will give you peace. Ok, now that you are my lobotomized doggie devotee slave, Bow down, obey, and worship your Massa. As a puppy treat, for a minimum donation of $100 [cash only], you may kiss my foot -- but only if you grovel and beg, and only fer a second. ok, here goes: phlegmie dog! fetch cash, heel, drop cash, down, stay, beg... roll over... crawl... beg... ok, kiss foot. now, scram, you miserable cur [m. glares, kicks dog, motions and security drags devotee-dog out by the chain on its collar]

later: Oh, hi there, premieji. wasn't that a great, inspirational event?! you have now passed step #1 of miragey's authorized new training. here, hurry and sign up for step #2 right now (where you get trained on how to speak about your experience and how to deflect questions or doubts about miragey) - while openings last. ok, that'll be $5,000 [US] -- cash in advance! Thanks. As a token of thanks, here's a lil 2'X3' snapshot of the Lord incarnate, the Living Master. Now, doesn't he look dapper in that beautiful silk Armani suit and that diamond Patek Philippe watch standing in front of that new Gulfstream V?!! Isn't that just precious?!!

Peace and lentils,

PS r.e. 'many regular posters on F7 have left K more than 5-10 years ago, much of the information of these regular posters is just plain old'. Well, Those who do not learn from the mistakes and lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. Periodic Maha cult revisionism is just more of the same old, same old - in another co-dependent cult slick package and wrapper. habitual. keeps the codependent pwks walking maha's tightrope with no safety net. more predictable megalomanical racketeer cult sado-masochist and fascist tendencies playing out.

btw, There are many recent exes from the past 1-3 years, too, here. + new folks showing up all the time!

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 00:36:53 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Many recent exes in past months, such [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 21:24:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hank Wallerlby
Subject: Thanks, I needed that -- welcome aboard
Message:
Great post, dude. I'd say more but I was bit by a cat last night and my hand's as big as a softball. Every right-hand stroke hurts. Thank god, I've got a girlfriend! :)
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 04:18:01 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, Hank, welcome and Jim...
Message:
...I hope you got a tetanus shot and antibiotics. I've been bitten by cats twice (I guess I'm not a cat person;) the second time on both hands - out of commission for nearly two weeks with footballs.

As they say: if cats were the size of rottweilers they'd be illegal.

Hank, I enjoyed your cheerful post and hope to get to know you.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 12:11:05 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, thanks Pat
Message:
I did indeed see a doctor last night. It was my right (thank god, I'm a leftie) and it's giant right now. Tetanus and antibiotics for sure. He said if I'd waited just one more day I might have needed hospitalization. Anyway, small change of course compared to some of the truly serious medical stuff some of us are dealing with. I know that.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 14:02:15 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim...re: your cat bite...OT
Message:
Jim,

Back in 1985, one of my cats scratched me above the breast. She was jumping over me as those little things like to do--nothing malicious.

Within a few days, I noticed that my left axilla (armpit) had a lump in it and within a week, it had swollen to the size of a pingpong ball, no shit. It was extremely painful.

Because none of the antibiotics worked, I was rushed into surgery and the lymph node was removed. It was Cat Scratch Fever. No, Ted Nugent had nothing to do with it.:)

Catch scratch fever is not fatal, however I wanted to warn you that if you start feeling symptoms of flu, please go back to your Dr. In particular, if you find any lumps in major node areas such as your armpits or groin, again go back to the Dr.

At that time little was known about Cat Scratch Fever, and because my lymph node was necrotized (the surgeon said it was flaked apart) I was not given any diagnosis. This frightened me. All they could tell me was that I didn't have cancer.

So I went to the UCONN Medical Center and was seen by a pediatrician who was studying CSF, and was interested in seeing adults who contracted it.

I've put a link that describes the disease and symptoms for you just in case. Again, it's common in children, and not fatal, however, adults tend to get more sick than children.

The good thing about CSF is that once a person contracts it and recovers, you become immune.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery. Was it a cat you know?

Love,
Cynth, not wanting to alarm you, but information is good....
[ Cat Scratch Fever ]

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 22:44:52 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Jim...re: your cat bite...OT
Message:
A bite is worse than a scratch especially if a tooth hits a bone and it ulcerates. Thank goodness for antibiotics.
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 13:10:33 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not small change, Jim
Message:
People have died from septic shock induced by the bacteria in cat bites. Glad it was not your pitching hand. Thank goodness the pain only lasts for a week or so.
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 20:57:08 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Hank Wallerlby
Subject: Hi Hank and thanks
Message:
Welcome to exland. I'm glad to hear you say you still love your premie friends. I hope those friendships will endure for you and for them. Either you'll find a way to talk about this experience with love and openness, or hopefully, you can find a way not to talk about it and just maintain the caring and respect that naturally developed over many years of friendship. I think it's safe to say that for all of us, losing friends we really cared about when we left the cult behind was the hardest part of moving in a new direction.

Be prepared for the difficult parts of leaving too. Maybe you won't hit any bumps in the road. If you do, we're all here for you, on the forum or by email too.

Trust me, I know my peon premie stories from the '70's are dated. But, what the stories do accomplish, is to tell the true story of the cult and Captain Rawat for new arrivals. There's a thread that goes back the development of DLM, the ashrams and festivals, the accumulation of wealth to today, where personal access to the Captain is sold to the highest bidder -- for seats or party attendance. That stuff makes me sick to my stomach. It is important for you and others to tell these stories so that premies who don't know about these activities can find out. Selling access darshan -- truly the way to enter the gates of heaven. What a long, long way that is from 'I will bring peace to the world'. This contradiction is not the mere dropping of 'Indian concepts'. It is the fundamental moral opposite of what he told many of us he wanted to do.

Thanks also for your kind nod to me. As you can see from my recent complaints about CAC, it isn't always a funhouse for me around here. Reading posts like yours and seeing new exes surface makes it all worthwhile though. I hope you'll be able to tell us who you really are one day. We're waiting for your next post. How about a journey?

Marianne

PS Feel free to email me.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 01:31:19 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hank
Message:
This below was posted by an someone who didnt use thier name.
Could you say what YOU think were some of the 'abusive' things that
went on in the training.

They [the trainings] were too harsh for many people - even people who you would think could handle it. I had a long talk with a friend of mine about it. It was definitely her opinion that more than a few people found the trainings abusive (although most of them were able to put it all in context and take the good from it, while leaving the rest). I guess I was just in a different place. I dunno. I do also know a bunch of people who had similar experiences to me.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:08:03 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Hank Wallerlby
Subject: Hi Hank
Message:
Nice to see ya! You've got a way with turns of phrase.. especially:
The entire bhakti trip is over, done, stick a fork in it. !! Welcome to fun and frolics on the Forum.
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:17:24 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: The Bhakti Trip
Message:
Is it really done and over? From what I have heard, and based on that recent US 'invitation-only-appointment-event' tour, it appears more likely that the Bhakti Trip is having a major revival in the Maharaji Cult, without even the pretense that it isn't happening. This is what lack of money will do.
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 19:41:31 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: The Bhakti Trip
Message:
yYp - you're probably right - the Bhakti-buggery thingy is alive and well. More's the pity. Well - that's what it always was, really. Even if thinly disguised. I suppose if sentient beings want to go and kiss his feet, that's their problem. (BIG problem!)
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 18:25:58 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Hank Wallerlby
Subject: Thanks Hank..
Message:
I have spoken with Henrietta on the phone. It's great to get updated information, and thank you for that. Thanks especially for noting that M really was asked if he meditated, that the questioner mentioned EPO and that M got very angry about it. Interesting.

Congratulations on making the split. Believe me, you will only feel better and better. And Philly is not such a bad place. Last time I was there, I discovered they have Petes coffee outlets. Yes, the same Petes Coffee of Berkeley, California fame. Please enjoy.

And it's true. I was community coordinator in Washington DC in 1979, and if M came and did an 'event' within 300 miles of the District, I dare say DC alone would have produced more than 500 premies to attend, not even counting Philly, and all the surrounding communities. Yes, the thing has certainly shrunk.

Just a couple of comments. You said:

For instance, Joe just heard bout the Arizona “resource team” meeting for wealthy donors and their $6.3 million donation. This is old news to those who’ve been around lately and seen the goings on with the seats up front for sale, the private events, private parties, etc.

Actually, what I heard was that $6.3 million was raised at the fundrasing event after the Portland program and that the Arizona event cost $5,000 (US) to attend. I didn't hear how much was raised. I knew months ago there had been a fundraiser in Portland.

I was told the details within the past week by a very active premie/ex-premie who had just found out about it, and hadn't known it before. This person also said that many premies did not know about these things. This was a major 'drip' for this person; the whole courting of donors and such. But I'm sure it's no news at all to the throughly plugged in PWK. Also, this is important for potential aspirants to know about.

Why are the many current premies and ex-premies whom you mention have this information, afraid to post, in your opinion?

Do you really work for the Philly Zoo? Part of the time I lived in the ashram I worked as a zookeeper in the San Antonio Zoo. It was hard work, in very hot weather, but it was lots of fun, too.

Thanks again for your comments, and please make more if you can.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 17:46:54 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Hank Wallerlby
Subject: Welcome to the real world
Message:
Welcome Hank, nice style in spiel!

John also away from the land of his birth but with a passport that says I belong here

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 18:03:10 (EST)
From: Phillie Mole
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: 'M, do you meditate?'
Message:
Hank, from one marsupial to another, thanks for the verification about 'the question heard 'round the world'. I've also had independant verification from a practicing premie that it happened as I originally heard.

I hope you will contribute more as your insights are valuable.

Phillie Mole

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 16:56:19 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: All
Subject: Will be in Seattle area
Message:
Hi:

I'll be in the Seattle area between Christmas and New Years. If anyone is interested in getting together contact me via email. A baby tossing get together? I'll be staying in Bothel, but will have access to one of those new-fangled horseless carriages.

--Scott
freewheeling@bigfoot.com

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Date: Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 20:01:02 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Elan Vital is getting slimmer every day!
Message:
Elan Vital no longer organises events. All reference has been removed from their website. This is what EV now does:-

Elan Vital, incorporated in 1971 in the US, is a charitable organization that provides support for Maharaji's work.

Elan Vital-US produces and distributes event materials worldwide, using its trade name Visions International.

At present, these materials are enjoyed in over 80 countries, with written and oral translations provided in more than 60 languages.

Maharaji receives no compensation from Elan Vital. Voluntary contributions and sales of its materials support Elan Vital in the US.

So they produce and sell materials, accept donations, and use the donations and proceeds from the sale of materials to help Maharaji's work, which for Elan Vital is to produce and sell materials.

That's cleared things up.

John.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 15:51:57 (EST)
From: Elena
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: EV/RAWAT & FRIENDS - Terrorist Training Methods
Message:
Well, no surprise here.... after all looks like EV/Rawat/&PAMS would want to become a charity. After reading John MacGregor on EPO it seems to me that EV & Mr&Mrs Prem Pal Singh Rawat should rise to their patriotic duty and submit to:

https://www.ifccfbi.gov/complaint/terrorist.asp

The EV/RAWAT/and PAMS manuals on recruiting global cash smugglers and indoctrinating 'airline staff' in methods of deception. In fact, I think it is a threat to Homeland Security to have an 'airline staff' trained in deception. Hmmm.... I happen to know the Homeland Security Director...I'll have to give him a call...(Gee Valerio... what DO YOU call the cash class - 'How one is to keep one's arse pursed whilst going through customs' ?)

I'd star with the statements I just read... by Macgregor...:

the cash proceeds from darshan lines were commonly flown around the world in the suitcases of x-rated premies, till they found their 'home' in M's coffers. I'm talking two, three, four hundred thousand US dollars at a time. These poor couriers would freak out if hunger forced them to take out $10 to buy a meal. They also suffered serious anxiety as they neared their destinations, customs and immigration regulations being what they are.

I've learned recently from a PAM friend that the closest inner circle of PAMs - e.g. the permanent personal staff, those in the personal (now known as the 'executive') area at Amaroo, the airliner staff - have been trained to deceive Maharaji's wife in the Monica matter.

_____________________________________________________________________

And remember Boys and Girls - IT'S YOUR PATRIOTIC DUTY.

Oh... Prem Pal, Valerio, and Al... you might not know that about the U.S. Well now you do.

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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 06:32:31 (EST)
From: don
Email: None
To: Elena
Subject: patriotic duty???
Message:
been indoctrinated by the bush clan???
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Date: Tues, Dec 04, 2001 at 15:13:00 (EST)
From: Elena
Email: None
To: don
Subject: Immigration/Cash Flow/Deceptive Air Staff
Message:
Hi Don,

Nope. I just think Rawat, his Financial Advisors, and airplane staff should report their methods of moving cash sums around the world, breaking immigration & customs laws, and their methodology regarding the GulfStream V and high tailing it out of countries e.g. France that question the Guru and his reasons for being in their country.

Everyone knows Rawat can be bought. Just name a price with at least six figures and he'll kiss the feet of the benefactor.

Perfect con. Shoot, I'm letting Miami know he just finished a slew of 'Money Harvesting Events' and now he and his deceptive air crew are heading their way. Threat to Homeland Security? Who knows but one can't be too careful. I think his plane needs to be at least search and any out of sync issues be dealt with by professionals not 'Talking Head' immigrant psycologists and PAMS.

Don't forget where he got this plane.... don.

Elena

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 01:30:16 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: a charity benefitting who????
Message:
where and who does the money collected go to?? i wanna know where this charity's money goes!!
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Date: Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 20:14:20 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: So is Glasser's site
Message:
Glasser's thetruthaboutmaharaji.com site has also been on a diet. All those incisive arguments addressing the 'critics' have disappeared, and it's now a flimsy advert for Maharaji's websites.

John.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:24:35 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: M's Rottweiler a poodle, after all?
Message:
I think this move is pathetic - even more pathetic than the original site. While we should welcome the removal of the defamatory material about Debbie and JohnT, Glasser's site was - admittedly in a warped way - at least evidence of a premie prepared to think for himself and speak out, however lamely.

But given the present timing, there is no way Glasser's excision of all personalised content is a unilateral move. From muddle-brained to brainless - wherever the Master leads, his grovelling lapdogs follow. Pathetic.

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 12:03:08 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: References to Wilkie Farr omitted
Message:
Glasser's site used to mention that he was a lawyer and worked for the prestigious NYC law firm of Wilkie Farr and Gallagher. It no longer says anything about him being a lawyer or mentions the firm. That is certainly interesting.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 01:34:12 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: speaking of the truth about maharaji--
Message:
what became of all the excellent stuff that was posted on the original site 'the truth about maharaji'????
every bit of it should have been mirrored over to another page under someone else's aegis. I hope its not lost. that stuff was powerful for me. confirmed things i couldnt get a straight answer about for years, especially about miami, marolyn and monica on alton road and palm island.
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 05:55:46 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Alton Road and Palm Island? (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 03, 2001 at 00:27:26 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Maharajiavellian strategies:
Message:
maha and his sick goons are taking the approach that if you ignore a problem and publicly pretend it doesn't exist, then it will simply disappear [a tactic juxtaposed with behind-the-scenes unpublicized threats, litigation, and a campaign of concerted terrorism, too]. public relations ploy: why feed the fire? but, it's not so simple; the fundumbmental problem isn't with ex-premies, it's with da maha and dat phlegm rawrat lobotomy cult of his own creation. so the underlying permanent p.r. problem will never go away, so long as maha and his cult operate.

nevertheless, new maha p.r. thinking: ok, just play down/ignore critics [pretend they don't exist], focus on positive advertising, gushy testimonials, slick packaging, spendy souvenirs/materials, tele infomercials, and keep all organizational information minimal (play down maha's corporate cash machine). to generate more money for mirage's 'work' [which is, of course, a divine mission to collect as much money as possible from his devotees/students, so he can continue that important work, which costs lots of money, after all, especially for those prohibitive but necessary personal expenses]: do more Speaker Appointment Events, hype big-ticket venue expenses and remember Cash Only - the more the better [and better seats, too].

Perhaps some lil yacht parties, a ride in da jet, or a dinner/luncheon with dose big spenders. Encourage package reservations with premie travel agents and maha org kickbacks. For Amaroo, hype yuppie camping and organic koolaid, dose new $10 'vegetarian' soylent burgers, $10,000 head-table seat reservations at daughter's restaurant, etc.

Market marji's own famous 'eggless mayonaise' and 'premie burgers - vegetarian entree'; marji's exciting new inspiring poetry book: Marji Paraphrases Rod McKuen; marji's new CD: The Bad-Tempered Synthesizer -- Live with One Finger; his new oleo corn margarine [made from the corns of the feet of real holi men]: Tub o' Lard; his latest fingerpaintings [i.e. hey, blondie, would you like to see my collection of premprints?]; his latest invention: gingivitis [er, Gingeritis]; a t-shirt he personally designed that says Lobotomies R Us = Peace of Mind; a new CD featuring Monica, Marolyn, Claudia, Satpal, Marji, Raj, Bhole, and the kids singing We Are Family; marji's curry, ladu and cream-pie cookbook, entitiled Gourmand/Gluttony - Indulge Yourself!; marji's new financial self-help book, The Inner Game of Fleecing; marji's new feel-good self-help tapes Cheat/Deceit for Beginners; a photo album of miragey's watches, entitled That Desire, That Fulfillment; a special boxed collection of exotic leaves from around the world, entitled Not A Leaf Moves; a PAM limited edition $100,000 ermine-lined cedar casket with gold lettering that says EIYDHIWNAY, etc.

the strategies:
1. deflect critics - publicly ignore em, they don't exist. Niche Marketing. Image Enhancement. Spin Doctor to the max. Fluff, Fluff, and more Fluff! Manipulate and Use reported cult rape victims' own parents as cult advertisements. What a devilishly clever Spin! Meanwhile, enlist attorneys, cult cyber-terrorists and other fanatics to harass maha's leading critics. If the fanatic cult terrorists get caught, simply disavow any association and put all blame on them and the victims [who had it coming, after all, in m's enlightened loving world]. Better yet, be a good Godfather and spirit any cult criminal culprits off to India [i.e. Fakiranand, Jagdeo, et al]. ABsolutely MAHARAJIAVELLIAN!!!

2. fund-raise with speaker events: generate more liquid cash revenue for maha's holey pockets, mega-toys, and personal expenses. Of course he doesn't get paid for his Work! I mean, that's the published FAQs, right?! hohoho

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Date: Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 21:19:48 (EST)
From: Sir Dave }(
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I still don't understand
Message:
What has a meditation that you can learn from Sainsbury's supermarket bookshelves for less than £2 - what has that got to do with some guy grinning on Charles Glasser's site?

I know I'm slow and let's face it, I am fifty next year, but the more I see pics of grinning Maharajis on these premie web sites and the more I hear them going on about Maharaji, the more ridiculous it seems.

Less than £2 from Sainsbury's it was. I'll never get over it. After thirty years...

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