JHB -:- New page on EPO - Moving On -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:34:25 (EST)

jonathan carr -:- Went to Dec. 8-9 Event -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:45:06 (EST)

__ the poor girl -:- better start running.. -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:28:26 (EST)

__ Jean-Michel -:- This thread definitely *** BEST OF *** -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:24:11 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Hi Jonathan -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:15:35 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- Hi Jonathan, I liked your post -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:31:31 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- A suggestion -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:40:45 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Welcome and thanks for great post -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:35:38 (EST)

__ Nigel -:- Thanks and welcome.. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:03:43 (EST)

__ __ jonathan carr -:- Re: Thanks and welcome.. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:15:40 (EST)

__ __ __ Jorge -:- Hey that was my friend, Rabbi Katz -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:05:16 (EST)

__ Francesca -:- See Timmi's post below -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:59:05 (EST)

__ __ jonathan -:- Re: See Timmi's post below -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:34:41 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Welcome Jonathan! -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:55:42 (EST)

__ AJW -:- Bravo Jonathon. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:54:05 (EST)

__ __ Jonathan carr -:- Re: Bravo Jonathon. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:08:35 (EST)

__ __ __ RichMandrake -:- Jonathan..A Few Words about the '70s -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:29:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- That was a fantastic summary -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:11:05 (EST)

__ __ __ SC -:- Wow Johnny... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:21:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ SC appears to know you, Jonathan, -:- SC is a premie named David Roupell [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:06:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Indeed he does -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:17:46 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Then why not say your name? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:51:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Pull your skirt down Patsy -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:37:43 (EST)

Check out -:- Elk Interactive Problem Page...! -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:38:44 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- Anybody need comic relief--read above post -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:31:47 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Should have known it was you... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:46:32 (EST)

__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Thanks! -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:08:02 (EST)

Timmi -:- information needed, please -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 13:41:50 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Re: information needed, please -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:03:09 (EST)

__ __ SC -:- Right on Pat -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:30:49 (EST)

salsa -:- Nice pictures -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 10:47:14 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- BEAUTIFUL! Thank you, Silvia..A must see [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:51:26 (EST)

Does Anyone Know About This??? -:- Some French CACa Needs To Be Scooped -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:51:22 (EST)

__ Maybe Not -:- Or is this a translation of letter? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:57:38 (EST)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Details, and thanks to them -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:19:42 (EST)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- EV's PRs' nightmares -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:26:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Much Obliged -:- Thanks, JM [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:32:07 (EST)

Joe -:- Maharaji's Sex With Premies -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:14:47 (EST)

__ BT -:- Re: Krishna & Gopis -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:30:22 (EST)

__ SC -:- Joe the Southern Baptist -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:44:11 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Oh David thanks for that -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:05:18 (EST)

__ __ Suzanne -:- You can never be around my kids -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:01:59 (EST)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: You can never be around my kids -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:56:55 (EST)

__ __ Marshall -:- Re: SC The Idiot -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:10:39 (EST)

__ __ __ The solution to troll infestation -:- If you can't stop yourself from responding -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:44:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Catonic Cat -:- Terminal Shock -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:32:20 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Freudian slip or queerbaiting? [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:25:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ SC -:- WOW... Innovation! -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:36:26 (EST)

__ PatD -:- Rawat's private life -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:50:40 (EST)

__ __ Marianne -:- Hi PatD! ot -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:19:02 (EST)

__ Felix the Cat -:- Hey Joe, where you going with that Gun -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:59:03 (EST)

__ __ Jerry -:- What if it was you? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:11:18 (EST)

__ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- Isn't this typical??? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:02:37 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Tami -:- Mi To -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:08:31 (EST)

__ __ __ Felix the... -:- Re: What if it was you? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:30:57 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- What will look beautiful? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:59:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ The Cat -:- Attention Lurkers -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:07:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Tami -:- I think is 'cum' not 'come' (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:11:15 (EST)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Cat, this POV insults every other religion [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 12:19:26 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Cat's POV insults simple human decency [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:08:44 (EST)

__ __ __ cat -:- K is not a religion(nt) -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:25:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ DLM, Elan Vital...Registered.... -:- religion since 1972 (NT) -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:30:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Registrar of Cat Churches -:- Semantics!And watch that space. -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:36:10 (EST)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Spot on for saying so! [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:10:20 (EST)

__ __ __ __ SC -:- OOHHH whoopeeee -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:48:28 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- I love it when Cat actually tries to be serious -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:53:08 (EST)

__ __ __ Cat -:- Pure abuse -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:34:32 (EST)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey Derek. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:04:28 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Check out the History -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:20:19 (EST)

__ __ __ Felix the... -:- It's full of traitorous ambitious men. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:39:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- It isn't just Dettmers -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:16:10 (EST)

__ __ Sulla -:- values BOBO -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 08:43:22 (EST)

__ __ __ Felix the... -:- Re: values BOBO -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 08:59:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- You imply MD is lying.. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:12:28 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cat -:- Re: You imply MD is lying.. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:16:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ You know darn well -:- Not hearsay, MD pimped for him [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:54:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The JudgeCat -:- Dettmers is terminally deluded(nt) -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:38:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- First hand experience is not hearsay -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:22:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Boy are premie trolls freaking out or what??????? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:50:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Quoll -:- Re: Boy are premie trolls freaking out or what? -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:41:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Boy are you ugly!!! -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:44:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: values BOBO -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:01:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cat -:- Re: values BOBO -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:52:28 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- The real question Cat is... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:53:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Jesus you are an idiot -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:33:12 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cat -:- Oh ..Duuuuh -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:20:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ^^^^^IGNORE THIS TROLL^^^^^And.... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:49:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cat -:- You have no right to exclude my opinion. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:24:07 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes she does -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:29:46 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Collins Boulevarde Cat -:- Fairy Land -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:02:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hey Don- over here -:- Correction-Collins Ave Cat!(nt) -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:14:28 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- No effect? ha ha -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:04:11 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, SC, I didn't mean to leave you out -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:28:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- That's better! -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:46:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I wasn't excluding your opinion... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:28:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Public Opinion Cat -:- You do and you did -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:12:49 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CAC Patrol -:- More unnecessary queer-bashing [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:29:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatD -:- Re: values BOBO -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:30:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Jagdeo/Maharaji... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:12:24 (EST)

__ Marianne -:- It's tied to Jagdeo abuse -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:41:47 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- Of course it is, Marianne -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:30:07 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, Marianne -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:06:54 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Why do you say that? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:25:16 (EST)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Jagdeo and other abusers -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 13:16:21 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: It's tied to Jagdeo abuse -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:15:07 (EST)

Jim -:- And here's your birthday gift, Lord -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 00:25:20 (EST)

__ CD -:- Re: And here's your birthday gift, Lord -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:11:04 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- I thought you were banned from here? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:38:46 (EST)

__ __ __ CD -:- Re: I thought you were bananas? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:21:49 (EST)

__ __ Voice of Conscience.. -:- Chris, in SD you said to Maharaji.. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:59:17 (EST)

__ __ __ CD -:- Re: Chris, in SD you said to Maharaji.. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:29:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- CD, the hypocrite -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:37:17 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: the hype -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:18:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Voice of Conscience -:- Chris, You're Right... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:09:36 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: Differences ... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:02:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- ***HA HA HA -- CD DRAWS A DISTINCTION!*** -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:34:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: ***HA HA HA -- CD DRAWS A DISTINCTION!*** -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:04:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: music -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:14:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: ***HA HA HA -- CD DRAWS A DISTINCTION!*** -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:37:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: ***HA HA HA -- CD DRAWS A DISTINCTION!*** -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:53:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Well, maybe I'm wrong ... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:52:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- You never lifted the ban -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:48:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Please come back Deb... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:15:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: You never lifted the ban -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:05:14 (EST)

__ Joe -:- I'm surprised... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:26:45 (EST)

__ __ michael donner -:- Re: I'm surprised... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:04:49 (EST)

Jim -:- ***HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MAHARAJI!*** -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:10:44 (EST)

__ gerry -:- LOL, ****BEST OF***** too -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:50:45 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: LOL, ****BEST OF***** too -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:26:21 (EST)

__ Felix the >>> -:- This is very kind of you Jim -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:51:06 (EST)

__ __ Andrea Eriksonn -:- Absolutely! And don't forget these fine quotes... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:22:29 (EST)

__ __ __ Dot Munchbutt -:- Absolutely BEST OF FORUM [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:58:28 (EST)

__ Barry -:- Birthdays are about respect I guess? -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:08:59 (EST)

__ Jim -:- 'You never lie' -- choke, cough, sputter! -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:20:35 (EST)

__ __ PatD -:- Different cultures -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:53:35 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC...but what would you have done -:- if dad told you he was greater than god?;) [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:01:12 (EST)

__ __ What style did LOTU affect -:- when singing for his cult stooges? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:51:34 (EST)

__ __ __ Another Possibility -:- like a Hindu Tiny Tim [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 14:11:09 (EST)

__ __ Barry -:- I wonder? -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:20:25 (EST)

Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:34:25 (EST) From: JHB Email: jhb@ex-premie.org To: All Subject: New page on EPO - Moving On Message:

I've added a new question to the FAQ section on the home page - 'Why don't we just 'move on'?', and a new page. Let me know what you think. Praise is preferable, but I can take brickbats as well. John.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:45:06 (EST) From: jonathan carr Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: All Subject: Went to Dec. 8-9 Event Message:

I am thirty-five years old and my significant other introduced me to Maharaji. For the two years I've known her, she's been talking about Maharaji and knowledge. She received knowledge three years ago in Katmandu, in her country of origin, Nepal. We've been living together for one year. She is extremely into Maharaji, so last weekend (Dec. 8-9, 2001) we went to Miami Beach for an event. I didn't want to go, but the local rep was over at my house and she and my girlfriend were imploring me do it, so I thought, what the heck, and we booked our tickets. On Monday, I decided to look into Maharaji on the internet. Not that I was ever all that attracted to his teachings. But I've been to some broadcasts and watched some videos over the past two years. But the event left me very dazed and confused. That's when I discovered this ex-premie site. It's wonderful how it encapsulates everything my 'doubt-maker' was thinking all along about Maharaji. I am Jewish, and it's sad how many Jews fall into these cults. But really I'm a particularly bad candidate for any cult other than the one I might start myself one day. Well, don't hold your breath. Anyway, the event was held in the Miami Convention Center. It looked like maybe four thousand people were there. The people running the show were quite nice: the event price was $120, but we only paid thirty dollars for the both of us since e're kinda poor these days and we had to buy airline tickets. Saturday, M talked the usual baloney, basically 'pratice whether you want to or not.' The rest was just commentary like jokes about Clint Eastwood and maniacal drivers. Sunday he rambled some more and then sang a raga-type song to a dance beat. Also, his daughter performed some short, albeit beautiful, songs to start each program. Also, on Sunday two old-timers publicly praised M. First a British man, then a Black woman engineer from Washington DC. Afterwards, there were so many people crying. A teenager in front of us stayed in her chair and cried and cried. My girlfriend cried. Even I shed a little tear. Why is that? Since then, I've had a low-grade headache. Must be M's screechy, high voice. But I have no doubt that I walked right into a cult with a very corrupt leader as the figurehead. Now I really want to confront my girlfriend about this whole thing. Last night I subtly mentioned M's riches. She scoffed at that, saying it didn't matter to her. I also mentioned his wife Marolyn sleeping around. The fact that their marriage was on the rocks didn't bother her. My girlfriend always tells me to listen to my heart and not my brain. I described the palatial Malibu home, the $40 million dollar Challenger jet, Amaroo, etc etc, but she didn't care. I mentioned how donations from followers paid for everything, how M's mother fought against M having exclusive rights to teach K, etc. Nothing jolted her. Does anyone have advice on how to handle this situation? My girlfriend has a framed picture of M with his gibberish writing on our dresser in our bedroom. She also wears a small locket with his face on one side and his toes on the other. She loves to watch videos and broadcasts. Most of all, she devoutly practices every single day. Would I be stupid for even trying to talk to her about the facts? Is there hope for our relationship? The good news is that I've been going to my Temple for Friday night services more and more. I think her belief in M has bothered me enough to do that, which is good, I think. She tells me that accepting K doesn't preclude my belief in Judaism. But, from what I've read, one has to publicly declare an unbinding affection for M. I now think it is my religious background that prevents me from accepting K. So be it. But I'm wondering about the future of our relationship. I already told her when we first started dating that if we were to consider marriage, I wanted a Jewish home and Jewish kids. I also asked her to consider converting to Judaism. How can I feel comfortable in my own home with videos, broadcasts, and that puffy face? She agreed to all my requests. But she did tell me it would be hard for her to convert. In conclusion, I would appreciate any help from people who convinced others of the falsehood that M represents. Or, if people have advice for those who live or lived with believers. Or just advice for people like me who contemplated receiving K, but were reluctant, and then found this website, which bolstered an ability to say enough is enough.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:28:26 (EST) From: the poor girl Email: None To: jonathan carr Subject: better start running.. Message:

before she gets hooked to the most evil cult in the world: judahism!

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:24:11 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: jonathan carr Subject: This thread definitely *** BEST OF *** Message:

Extremely interesting. Thank you Jonathan

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:15:35 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: jonathan carr Subject: Hi Jonathan Message:

Suggestions: Number one, take care of yourself. Under no circumstances get sucked in yourself, even if you think it's necessary to save your relationship. If you ever start thinking like that, the relationship is probably over. Keep in mind that when push comes to shove your friend will probably choose M over you. I know that's hard to imagine, but it may well be true and it's important for you to realize that. That's part of the reason so many premie marriages fall apart, because there is a third person there, the imaginary friend, Maharaji, who continually emphasises that the "love" he has is superior to the "love" people share with each other. The flip side of that is that the "love" the two of you have is inferior in her eyes. I think the best thing is to just be informed yourself and just pipe in when you think you can. Clearly, the sexual transgressions of Maharaji, as well as his failure to stop child sexual abuse in his cult (and moreover his current failure to try to rectify any of it) is quite damning, and something you might ask your friend to consider. In my experience, these revelations are sometimes strong enough to get premies to begin re-evaluating the whole trip. That's happened quite a lot, actually, and may get your friend to begin thinking for herself again when it comes to Maharaji. Be yourself, be honest, be there for her, but realize she is in a cult, so she isn't thinking the least bit objectively about Maharaji. It's very hard for her to do that. For her to be where she is now took an immense amount of repression and discouting her own thoughts and she is probably used to doing that. So, you have to be careful, because she may begin to see YOU as the source of doubts and it might just end your relationship. On the other hand, the vast majority of people leave the cult at some point. It's just hard to say when. Good luck.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:31:31 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: jonathan carr Subject: Hi Jonathan, I liked your post Message:

Wow dude, you really know how to introduce yourself. You have a lot on your plate right now, don't ya? Gee, when it comes to relationships, nobody wants to be too quick to offer advice, because it's such a delicate matter. Best thing is to take it slow, but take it. Know what I mean? Don't let this topic and your newfound information sit on the back burner. It's important to make a stand and let your girlfriend know where it is and let her know you're willing to talk (that means words shared by the rest of our known society) to her about her experience and importantly, WHY she is saying what she says. Premies diffuse requests for answers about knowledge by claiming there are no words. This true, for the simple reason that there are few words to express NOTHING. Premies thrive in public programs mostly because of the group high and expectation. But are they that way without the group and cult leader? Did you see your girlfriend differently at a program than you do the rest of the time? Does she credit Maha for every blue sky day and naturally pleasing moment? Does she seem easily confused by ways of this world? It's also very important to notice patterns of communication. You need to be firm and consistant, yet open to listen, and best of all, loving. As a man and a potentially devoted husband, you deserve a loving and devoted wife. Devoted to you!!!! Not a swindler in Malibu. Which, sadly, is true. We are people who have been there and done that Jonathan. We know about the thought terminating jargon and how it works. have you read any of Rick Ross's stuff about cults? Really insightful man. Here's a little suggestion: Perhaps you can give your girlfriend a copy of this article before laying all the EPO stuff on her. Get her to talk about the article. Then ask her another time to comment on the similarity of EPO material. She'll have 50% convinction which will be a good head start. Lots of good stuff at Rick Ross' site. http://www.rickross.com/rickross.html I linked you to go article to get started on his site at top of page Good luck p.s. RichMandrake was right. Majority of premies in ashrams were Catholics and Jewish. I was even told that when I was in the cult. [ Public perception vs Research ]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:40:45 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: jonathan carr Subject: A suggestion Message:

Read up on all the stuff about m's representatives sexually abusing premies and children. Present to your partner the allegations and see if she expresses any concern about m's silence on the whole issue throught the years.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:35:38 (EST) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: jonathan carr Subject: Welcome and thanks for great post Message:

I really enjoyed your post and hope to hear more from you and to get to know you better. I hope (and am fairly sure) that your relationship will continue to grow and become a very special friendship like I have enjoyed for 20 years if that is what you want. If it isn't religion which is the problem, there's sure to be another - money, sex or in-laws. Look on the bright side: at least you don't have a mother-in-law. :) People don't change or learn all about each other overnight. Patience is the answer if the love is mutual. The big difference between your fiancee and most of us here is that she is a Hindu first and a premie second. I lived with Hindu premies in South Africa where I was born and saw that there is quite a big difference between them and those of us who converted from Judaism or Christianity to Maharajism which is simply a Hindu cult just as Moonie-ism is a christian cult. Rev Rawat is a lot like a charismatic revivalist preacher to Hindus. (BTW it seems that the largest group to become premies in the west were lapsed Catholics followed by Jews. Protestants seemed to find it a bit flambuoyant.) It is also a cult in the tradition of Krishnaism; in other words it is a religion of bliss/ecstatic love and not of morals as is the Judeo-christian religion. It will be hard to shock your fiancee with the guru's corrupt behaviour EXCEPT perhaps the fact that he is NOT a vegetarian unless she has forsaken that part of her religion. I'm not very judgmental or moralistic but there are two things about Rev Rawat that stick in my throat worse than the others. The main one is that he killed a Hindu premie in a car accident and ran away from the scene of the crime and let a lowly Hindu cult member take the rap and the other is his sexual abuse of his female students, specifically blonde western premies. I think your fiancee would be a bit insulted that he does not find Hindu women sexy. You can read about this latter corruption in Joe's post below.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:03:43 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: jonathan carr Subject: Thanks and welcome.. Message:

Hi Jonathan. Hope you stick around - fascinating perspective you bring to things. We have a couple of regulars here who might be able to offer advice on your love-life predicament - Timmi and JohnT. Both non-premies with premie spouses. Both, I am sure, will relate to a lot you have shared here. I think it is especially healthy for premies to read the thoughts of someone who walks in off the street like you have done - possibly jolts them back to a reminder of how the real world is, and how they themselves used to be. Yes, of course, M's talks are bland, banal, unfocused and unstructured. Empty. The filter of a real world pair of eyes is all it takes to see this cult for what it is. Glad you dropped by, anyway. Cheers! (and hope you apply a similarly skeptical filter to your revisits to orthodox Judaism). Nige the happy atheist.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:15:40 (EST) From: jonathan carr Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: Nigel Subject: Re: Thanks and welcome.. Message:

thanks so much! You're quite kind to welcome me. After all, I was afraid that bringing up this stuff might offend some people. As for my brand of Judaism, nooo, not orthodoxy! I am from the Reform branch. But it was funny. After the event, we went for a stroll down the crowded Lincoln pedestrian mall. There were Hasidic Jews there, handing out free menorahs and they asked if I was Jewish and if I wanted to don teffilin, which I did. They asked if we wanted to come back for a Hanukah party, which we did. Anyway, there I was among so many Maharaji followers, donning teffilin right in front of them. They must have thought I'm weird, which is really fine with me.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:05:16 (EST) From: Jorge Email: None To: jonathan carr Subject: Hey that was my friend, Rabbi Katz Message:

Hi Jonathan: I am jewish also, but not even reform, though I do have some hassidic friends, including the guy who assaulted you with the tefilim. Nice guy though. Anyway, monotheism and M. are not really compatible. Why would one want to join a cult anyway? I have an aunt (my favorite aunt) who is in the cult. It's very difficult to talk to her about it. last time I did, she got very upset and asked me never to mention it again. Too bad. Premies have to turn a blind eye to the facts, otherwise, their world falls apart.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:59:05 (EST) From: Francesca Email: None To: jonathan carr Subject: See Timmi's post below Message:

She is in the same boat as you. Also John T (never a premie). I'm not sure where his website is. But I'm sure that other people similarly situated will put in there two cents to your post. You have my sympathy. My husband smelled the coffee before I did, and I was exiting by the time he was pretty completely disillusioned, so we didn't have to suffer over it. Bests, F [ Timmi's post ]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:34:41 (EST) From: jonathan Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: Francesca Subject: Re: See Timmi's post below Message:

Thanks. I'm wondering about all the people at the event, and worldwide, who are causing others to suffer. At the face of it, there is no harm done to others, except that these fools leave others behind. My girlfriend's parents died when she was very young, and an older sibling and his family raised her. Now that she's in the US, she has two sisters living here, but both of them are opposed to M. So, she's kinda excommunicated from her family. If she and I split, then she's all alone. The people she would fall on would be other M followers. So, I feel an enormous guilt about not helping her get straight. Besides, I do love her and care about her. But many times even before now, I've seriously questioned our relationship.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:55:42 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: jonathan Subject: Welcome Jonathan! Message:

Dear Jonathan: First, pay no attention to the troll below named ''SC.'' I first want to welcome you to the forum. It took great ourage to post. As others have told you, you are not alone. My situation was opposite from yours. I was the premie. The year I left the ashram, Jan, 1981, I met my husband (never a premie) in October of that year. I was uninvolved for 16 years, but my belief system was very strong, I was indoctrinated during the heavy devotional, worship him as lord, era of the mid-to-late 70's. In 1997 I tried to go back to Maharaji/ElanVital, I still believed m to be god, so believed that ''EvenInYourDarkestHourIWillNotAbandonYou'' bullshit. It took about a year or so before I just gave it all up, especially after coming to EPO and reading here. My point is that my husband worried about me during that last year or so but he was patient. He knew what I thought m was: the Lord of the Universe. If he had given me an ultimatum about him or m, I don't know what I would have done, in fact, we separated for about three weeks, but were able to work it all out. If the relationship is strong you will weather this out. Just try to be gentle, don't force it, give her stuff to read that is not too confrontational. It depends upon her belief systems. And my advice is worth what you paid for it:):) You made me laugh when I read this: But really I'm a particularly bad candidate for any cult other than the one I might start myself one day. Well, don't hold your breath. Good to keep a sense of humor. Well, take a deep breath and don't panic. Feel free to post again. Best, Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:54:05 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: jonathan carr Subject: Bravo Jonathon. Message:

Thanks for that very insightful post. You seem to have your head screwed on properly. I wish mine was. Lots of 'Christians' were gullible enough to join the cult, and even more Hindus. Your significant other is right, it's not about religion. It's about money and a Michael Jackson type character who thinks he created the Universe. When I left the cult, my wife was still right into it. Here's what I did. I printed loads of stuff from EPO out and let her read it. It worked. She left the cult and became a Catholic Nun. If it doesn't work with your significant other, I'd just accept the fact that she's into a nutty religion and keep your bank accounts seperate. Anth, I lied about the Catholic nun.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:08:35 (EST) From: Jonathan carr Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: AJW Subject: Re: Bravo Jonathon. Message:

Thanks, AJW. I'll give it a try. Maybe I'll start with the 14 objections. As for my head being screwed on properly, I don't think it's as properly tightened as you think. But I appreciate your help and advice. As for money, we already have separate bank accounts, but I'm worried. If she were to continue with Maharaji and we were to continue living together, what can I expect her to do with money? I have an idea: she spent some of next semester's tuition money on the event trip, but I did cover much of the expenses. Would she buy videos at the expense of, say, diapers? Thanks again! J

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:29:45 (EST) From: RichMandrake Email: None To: Jonathan carr Subject: Jonathan..A Few Words about the '70s Message:

Jonathan, I just read your Post and thought I'd respond with a word or two. Your wife received knowledge 3 years ago. This would be somewhat of a rarity in the United States as 'propagation' (the recruitment and intitiation of new people into the cult) has been almost non-existent here for most of the last decade or so. The Great majority of Maharaji followers were recruited in the '70s. Because your girfriend has received knowledge so recently she may not be fully aware of the historical context for Maharaji's present deceits. In the early '70s until the early '80s Maharaji Strongly Implied Divine Authority and presented himself as the Lord God in a Human Form. In order to 'receive knowledge' many of us had to swear our belief in him as the Lord ..and take an oath to give our Lives to him and his service. Invoking his implied Divine Authority, Maharaji then suggested that we should all move into 'Ashrams' (monasteries for his devotees) and give all our worldly goods to him. He then enslaved many of us in servitude and poverty...Working for him..and giving him the fruits of all our labors (MONEY) which he used (and still uses) to live lavishly . In the Early '80s (circa 1983) Maharaji disbanded the Ashrams throwing the residence of these ashrams out on the streets, for the most part with no money (having given it all to him) and little saleable job skills. He also changed his presentation such that he no longer overtly claimed to be the 'Superior Power in Person'. He asked that all Publications that had his previous presentation be 'returned'..For the most part, these publications were burned and buried...thus allowing him to deny that he had enslaved many of us through his claims of Divinity and Divine Authority to tell us what to do. (It was called 'agya' ..the Order of the Lord). He never explained any of this and left us to form our own tortured understandings and rationalizations. This is all absolutely true. Most of the people you read who post on this forum lived through this period of Maharaji's Perpetration. Now Maharaji flat out denies that any of this happened. He runs a nice little religion that nets him beaucoup Cash and Lots of Power Adoration and Worship. It is not without payoff to his followers. Knowledge is a nice little meditation. The experience of a bunch of people focusing their energy and projections on Maharaji in a group situation is at times blissful..at times cathartic. But its ALL Based on Lies...Lies like Maharaji stating that he never claim to be 'the Superior Power in Person'..Lies like the techniques of knowledge and the experience of knowledge belong to Maharaji....and the Big Lie..that forms the Foundation for Maharaji's little Cult: That Maharaji is a Master of the experience of Life..worthy of respect and able to lead others in the path of realization. As you have most likely read, Jonathan the Truth is just the Opposite. Maharaji is a chain smoking woman abusing alcholic. He is petty, vindictive and immature. He is the exact opposite of what he portrays himself to be on stage..and he goes to GREAT lengths to hide all of this from his followers. Your wife sounds like she is practicing a nice little religion..with some nice little payoffs. Except for the money she wastes seeing this guy, it may have very little negative consequences for her at this time. But that does not mean that it is not without long term effects. Maharaji has used and hurt many people badly. He has taken peoples fortunes..He has enslaved people in his servitude and in the false belief that one should spend their time listening to and following him. You are a Jew. I am not, but many of my friends are and I have great respect for the Jewish tradition. It seems to be one of action and accomplishment. A friend of mine once explained to me that Jews are taught that their salvation lies in action..in accomplishment..in deeds...The whole sage of the Jewish people seems to support that. Jews are a prolifically accomplished people who have given much to the world on many levels. Premies (devotees of Maha) on the other hand have spent much of their life focusing their energy on sticking their thumbs in their ears and blindly following their master. Their Master still encourages only listening to him...He offers bliss and yet ultimately numbs people in a self fullfilling delusion. Anyway, Jonathan, Ive started a rant..and that was not my intention. I Just wanted to say hi and maybe warn you that your girlfriend may not be aware of the full extent of Maharaji's deceit. And she may not want to know. Many people are content to keep and protect their delusions..It offers some safety and reassurance even while it stops any real growth. I hope this is not the case with your girlfriend..In any case...Thanx for coming on the Forum....and I wish you All the Best....Richmandrake..

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:11:05 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: RichMandrake Subject: That was a fantastic summary Message:

Rich, Please don't resort to self denigratation, that was not a rant at all. All of your points were excellent, concise, and purposeful.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:21:27 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Jonathan carr Subject: Wow Johnny... Message:

Now you gotta be careful bro! It'll be diapers one week, your Hanaka trust fund the next. If you let this zealot girlfrind of yours loose any longer she'll start slushing money from the Bar Mitzvah social club Christmas fund to spend on expensive jet fuel and CD's recorded by the cult leader. Dump her quick before she ousts you, she's only after your money! Then talk to your Rabbi brother. There again...I think his first suggestion will be NOT to seek guidence and counselling on such holy and religious matters from an internet chatroom. BTW: I loved you work on the KTS site!!!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:06:41 (EST) From: SC appears to know you, Jonathan, Email: None To: SC Subject: SC is a premie named David Roupell [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:17:46 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: SC appears to know you, Jonathan, Subject: Indeed he does Message:

But you don't... do you Mr C?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:51:47 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: SC Subject: Then why not say your name? Message:

If you know Jonathan then tell him who you are politely instead of skulking behind anonymity like a weasel. No, I don't know you and I don't want to know you for reasons like this incident - sneaky and creepy, bro.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:37:43 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: PatC Subject: Pull your skirt down Patsy Message:

For your elucidation and ongoing education Pat, let me hereby inform you that in the HUGE cyberworld of newsnets, chatrooms and bbs there is a coded language understood by 'insiders' who also use code names to identify themselves to each other. It's all very simple and easy. We all know who we are. No use for 'real' names because this isn't the real world (sorry, but it really really isn't Pat) and we are all savvy and mature enough not to resort to threats of 'exposure' during disagreements or scurry hiding behind clique ridden forums where the status quo is status no go. You'll get the picture as time moves along. It's a much bigger picture than you think... ...but look, I understand. I know it must feel INCREDIBLY important to have made it as high up as 'assistant' forum administrator on a 28 bit unencrypted hotboards page! It's a seriously high office Patsy, you go be careful now son!!!!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:38:44 (EST) From: Check out Email: None To: All Subject: Elk Interactive Problem Page...! Message:

In the latest of a number of initiatives to help Maharaji in his work, spread His teachings, and promote understanding among People With Knowledge, we are excited to welcome you all to ‘ELK Interactive’ – the problem page tailored to meet your unique life experience needs. It is hoped this resource will not only facilitate a sharing of ‘that’ experience among People With Knowledge, but will help integrate their practice with those nitty-gritties of everyday experience which can all-too-often hinder our progress. While earlier initiatives such as the Elan Vital press releases and Frequently Answered Questions have served a valuable purpose, it is crucial that we all keep moving along and evolving in accordance with Maharaji’s wishes. It is further recognised that sometimes even our best efforts have not been enough to realise Maharaji’s aims, and that we will, of necessity, fail on many occasions. However, I feel so much gratitude that any one of us should even find ourselves in a position to contribute in any way we can, and thus we should never be deterred from taking up whatever opportunity should arise to further Maharaji’s work. Anyway, enough of this preamble – My name’s Mitch Dummkopf and it is my special privilege to host this exploratory multimedia page and, I hope, to give this task my every best effort and will continue to do so while this precious opportunity remains. Precious, indeed, just like every breath is precious, every moment in this life… (Legal note: I have been asked to clarify that words of advice expressed on this page are mine and mine alone, that is to say, the thoughts of Mitch Dummkopf, in association with a number of specially-trained counsellors, and, as such, should in no way be construed as the express instruction, teaching, ‘agya’, nor any other form of communication from Maharaji himself or his family. Questions about Maharaji’s private life will not be entertained here, but details of both the sender’s query, along with their personal details will be forwarded to Mr Yoram Nice, who has volunteered to serve as an intermediary in such cases and will certainly take steps to see that the questioner’s comments are recorded and promptly acted upon.) Already our phone lines, not to mention our snail and email boxes have been deluged from callers and readers. Let’s go over to the phone line. Hey! - this IS exciting. What an amazing opportunity. Hello and welcome, caller! You are the very first, and I hope not the last (ha-ha), caller to our problem page. How can I help? Caller: Hello… [sounds of crying].. Hello, is that Mike Dettmers? Mitch Dummkopf: Not quite (ha-ha!). It’s me, Mitch, here. Who am I talking to, please..? Caller: Are you there? [sniff].. Is Maharaji there? MD: Who is this please? Are you Janice..? – no? – ok, I see, ok, well could you then please leave your name with one of our switchboard operators before you ring off. What is your problem exactly, caller? Caller: It’s Maharaji. I just feel so… feel so powerless… so humbled.. MD: A-ha… I think we can all understand that feeling. Can be pretty amazing, don’t you think…? Caller: Yes, I mean, no… Yes, amazing - always. Of course [sniff…] But I don’t know what to do. I mean right now. Maharaji loves me and wants me – I know that – of course he does - but I don’t know what to do about it. Just so powerless… MD: I know. Pretty amazing indeed. Sometimes we really don’t know how to deal with those kinds of feelings, do we? But I am not sure there is anything we need worry about, though. Do you? Caller: But I AM worried. What would YOU do if it happened to you, Mike? That’s why I am ringing…[sniffle] What should I do? MD: Can you be more specific? And it’s ‘Mitch’, not Mike. It seems something might be hindering your clarity and – who knows – maybe affecting your experience a little. Can you give us a clue, here, caller? I might be able to help. It has been known occasionally (ha-ha!). Anyway. Want to give me a try...? Caller: Well, it was after darshan, Amaroo, I was just feeling so much - MD: Er, sorry to interrupt you, caller. Nothing personal – I am intrigued - really. But some of those archaic terms like ‘darshan’ you are using will be lost on others reading and listening. Remember, Maharaji has moved on a long way – dropped the ‘Mahatma-ese’ once foisted upon him, and we should not go confusing his cultural heritage with his message… But no problem, and I think we catch your drift. Anyway, you are saying you were at the Australian event and, er, chanced to brush against Maharaji in person, then, felt somewhat overwhelmed by your feelings. Is that it? I am feeling my way, here… Maybe your boyfriend is a Person Who Wants to Receive Knowledge? And he’s jealous..? Quite a common problem. Totally unnecessary – shows a lack of clarity. Is that it..? Caller: Of course he’s bloody jealous. Who wouldn’t be? That’s the problem. MD: Hmm – I see. Thought so. I knew it. Really that is such a common thing. I guess it comes down to those feelings of love and connectedness. Just so unique. So special they can take us somewhere we just know our regular contacts with other people can never take us. Never, not spouses, not even our kids, our own mothers (sigh…) Listen, sweetheart, I know it’s hard, but please listen. Everything will be ok. There’s something unbalanced in your life, and what I think it needs is for your boyfriend to get more deeply involved with Maharaji and Knowledge, and not for you to become less involved or lose contact. He has to deepen his understanding, while you retain your clarity. Then, instead of this irrational jealousy, his feelings regarding Knowledge will mirror your own. It’s like Gibran once said – great quote Maharaji chose for his own wedding to Marolyn – something like ‘each have your own loaf but don’t slice one loaf and share it, lest…er..’ – that sort of thing. Believe me, lover, it is a process. A one way process. Soon enough your boyfriend’s experience might be every bit as amazing as yours. It takes time. How many videos has he watched? Caller: Can I finish..? [sniff] MD: Forgive me, caller. I was getting carried away there. Do go on… Caller: Well it was like I said. After darshan I was totally blissed, blessed and blasted out. I guess it showed. Anyway, I was in this sort of first aid place coming around…came out of there, wandering around in a bit of a trance, sort of thing. Looking for my boyfriend. This guy comes up – smart suit, reassuring, sort of. Takes me firmly by the arm and leads me down this corridor. Says Maharaji has taken a special notice of me, and thinks I could provide a ‘special’ service. Wants to meet me – get to know me a little first. Tells me where and when. This luxury hotel up the road – no expenses spared. ‘What sort of special service?’ I ask him. Of course, I was suddenly all trembly again. And so this guy tells me… and it’s just like… Oh, my f***ing Christ – is this for real?! Maharaji is interested in me, interested like THAT..? [extended bout of sniffs and whimpers…] And so it’s like – what so I do… - what with my boyfriend being a journalist, and all…? [click..] MD: Oh dear – we seem to be experiencing one or two technical problems there. Line gone dead. Umm… dear me. Yes, I guess we all meet one or two odd characters, even when attending events – I know I do, and that’s what people who meet me say, too (ha-ha). I guess my advice is be careful when dealing with strangers, and don’t take anything they say too seriously. Anyway, caller, we did manage to get your details by tracing the phone line, so I think what I am going to do here is refer this one to Yoram Nice, just to be on the safe side. There might be security issues to be looked into. We wouldn’t want anyone else to have that sort of unpleasant encounter, would we..? Anyway, my name’s Mitch Dummkopf and I will be back online very, very soon and will be having a look at your emails. And if you have a personal problem relating to your practice of Knowledge, don’t hesitate to give us a call and I will do my best to answer it… Email: elkinteractive@redcrow.demon.co.uk

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:31:47 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Check out Subject: Anybody need comic relief--read above post Message:

Brilliant. Keep it up you guys.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:46:32 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Check out Subject: Should have known it was you... Message:

...but I didn't right till the end. Thanks for the belly laughs, Nigel.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:08:02 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: PatC Subject: Thanks! Message:

I saved reading it for last today. What a great 'concept'!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 13:41:50 (EST) From: Timmi Email: timmi56@yahoo.com To: All Subject: information needed, please Message:

Hi, Everybody. I've not been here for days so I've no idea what has been discussed. I've missed you all! It's lonely being a heretic surrounded by premies; I'm sure a lot of you know that! My question is this: What is the divorce rate among practicing premies? I know that is going to be hard if not impossible to find out. My fear is that it is alarming. Another fear is that it is a big secret at EV and Visions and everywhere else. Although I am sure there are some happily married premies, in thinking over those I know, none are married! All are divorced. Is this unusual? Maybe I've just been around a group that has had some bad luck. But, of the couple of dozen or so premies I know pretty well, absolutely no one is still married. There is one who is in a new relationship, or was over a year ago but I've no idea if it is going well or if it is still going at all. Oh, yes, there is one more, but his marriage is really unhappy and I've not seen them for well over a year. They may not be together anymore. If anybody has any information, please tell me. And if it's not too much trouble, could you send it to my e-mail address? Please! I never know when I am going to be able to get back here and I'm afraid it will be lost far below before I get it. Thanks, all. You help me hang on!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:03:09 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Timmi Subject: Re: information needed, please Message:

Timmi, I hardly know anyone who has not been divorced at least once and I think premies are simply a microcosm of the whole divorce boom. Not sure if it is significant.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:30:49 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: PatC Subject: Right on Pat Message:

That's a very unecessary red herring to follow up the river. Timmi, if you want some real wild stats, check out the divorce rates of the Union of the Performing Arts! I personally believe that people who have the guts to call it quits and move on into another relationship are far better admired than those clinging co-dependantly to a union that's lost its spark.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 10:47:14 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: All Subject: Nice pictures Message:

nice Earth

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:51:26 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: salsa Subject: BEAUTIFUL! Thank you, Silvia..A must see [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:51:22 (EST) From: Does Anyone Know About This??? Email: None To: All Subject: Some French CACa Needs To Be Scooped Message:

Found this on the web. [ French CACa ]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:57:38 (EST) From: Maybe Not Email: None To: Does Anyone Know About This? Subject: Or is this a translation of letter? Message:

My apologies, if so. Not a fluent reader of French. This looks like a French translation of the letter written by Joe et al.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:19:42 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Maybe Not Subject: Details, and thanks to them Message:

This is a French cult (anti) information website. They've picked the translated letter that's on the French side of EPO. Their website is mainly anti-scientology, and they've noticed that EV's copied scientology's tactics. Great !!!! We have some support here in France !!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:26:54 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: EV's PRs' nightmares Message:

That translated letter was posted on the newsgroup fr.soc.sectes on August 30 by me, and they've picked it there.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:32:07 (EST) From: Much Obliged Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Thanks, JM [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:14:47 (EST) From: Joe Email: Kevjo@mindspring.com To: All Subject: Maharaji's Sex With Premies Message:

From my calculations, it's been over a year since Michael Dettmers confirmed that Maharaji has had sexual affairs with numerous premies (and sumarily 'dumped' most of them) and also that he has had a continuous sexual affair with another of his students, Monica Lewis, a premie not his wife for many years, which continues to this day. Specifically, here is what Michael Dettmers said in 2000: Beginning in 1985, Maharaji began a series of affairs with women who were premies. His move in this direction was prompted by his marriage difficulties in 1984. Although he and Marolyn came to some understanding and resolution over their problems, I do not know if part of that resolution included an agreement that he would be free to engage in extramarital affairs. I know that, from Maharaji’s perspective, Marolyn was certainly not free to engage in extramarital affairs. At that time, Maharaji and I were particularly close and he told me of his desire to experience other women. I was not shocked by his desire nor did I have a negative assessment about it. In fact, I thought that it might put him more in touch with his humanity which could only be a positive development as far as I was concerned. However, I strongly advised him not to get involved with premies. To me, this could potentially bring trouble for him and create difficulties for the women as well. Instead, I suggested that he engage the services of a professional escort, and I offered to make the arrangements for him. At first he seemed open to the idea but soon thereafter he decided against it. He told me that there was a particular premie woman he had in mind, and he asked me to arrange that they meet, which I did. Soon, thereafter, he asked me to arrange a meeting with another woman. In the meantime, the first person was left high and dry wondering what was going on. He cut off communication with her and her only recourse was to contact me. I now found myself in the unpleasant circumstance of dealing with situations he created by his lust and careless disregard for the hurt and confusion it inflicted on his victims. After three such incidents, I told him that his reckless behavior was backfiring, and that I did not have the time to take care of the negative consequences it produced. He responded by agreeing that I had more important things to handle for him than procuring women and that he would now take care of that task himself, meaning that he simply delegated the task to someone who was more amenable to it. He continued to have numerous affairs of which I am aware and it was not too long thereafter that he began a more serious affair with Monica Lewis that, according to my sources, continues to this day. Has any information been added to this since Michael reported it? I also wanted to mention one other point about this. I have heard John MacGregor refer to these things as part of Mahraji's 'personal life' and potentially not relevent to our discussions here. I'm not exactly sure if John meant that was his opinion, or whether premies have suggested that to him. I want to say very clearly that Maharaji having sexual affairs with his devotees/followers/students is an extremely serious abuse of his position as master against people who trusted him to be his students, and an outrageous abuse of his power situation. This is important for us to talk about here because it's something both premies and non-premies should know about. There have been many notorious abuses by other Gurus, masters and spiritual leaders have also exploited and abused their followers. In my opinion, the potential for this abuse is an inherent problem in the master/devotee relationship, and one of the reasons such relationships must be looked at under the highest scrutiny and the "master" must be held to an extremely high standard of propriety. I doubt many people would be interested in having Maharaji as their 'master' if they knew he engaged in that kind of illicit behavior. The fact that it occurred, and apparently continues to occur, is a direct reflection of how Maharaji views his students and how he conducts himself as a master, and obviously very relevent to how people evaluate him. Anything to add on this subject?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:30:22 (EST) From: BT Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Krishna & Gopis Message:

The Krishna and Gopis story may be a way that Indian gurus justify (feel entitled?) sex with their female devotees. The relationship of Krishna with the Gopis is depicted as sacred. Maybe it was. But it just occurred to me today (before I read Joe's post) that maybe Krishna was really a dirty old man, abusing this position and power to have sex with the milkmaids. It's entirely possible that that's what was happening, but the story got passed down as a sacred relationship...paving the way for future gurus to follow suit.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:44:11 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe the Southern Baptist Message:

You pompous ass making such ludicirous staemments about the rules of master/student engagements. Your mindset is identical to the scourge that enslaved the Southern States of the USA, and still do. Go join them, you'll do real well and head a provincial church within a decade. Sanctimonious, narrow little mindset bro, smoke a few more doobies and chill out.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:05:18 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: SC Subject: Oh David thanks for that Message:

It's bad enough that your master is such a jerk and uses his followers for sex. That's important for people to know. The fact that you, one of his followers, thinks it's perfectly okay is another important thing for people to know, so thanks for adding that to the discussion. And thanks for the very ignorant rant on the Southern Baptists. You don't know what you are talking about, but we already knew that.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:01:59 (EST) From: Suzanne Email: None To: SC Subject: You can never be around my kids Message:

You screwed up deviant. What kind of an excuse for a human being are you? I sure hope you don't have access to children. To suggest that it's somehow okay for Maharaji to sexually exploit his women devotees is just sick, and so are you.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:56:55 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Suzanne Subject: Re: You can never be around my kids Message:

I think many people follow m, BECAUSE of his behaviour. They are perverts and HIS behaviour tells them it's ok. SC doesn't like you challenging 'the rule between himself and his master'. Well SC now look into a real mirror of life. Sickos like you who continually support prempal are just as answerable as is prempal. I recently asked a (former) premie friend for some money she has owed me for over 20 years. She totaly freaked when I reminded her saying that at THAT time all was devotional acts and anyway 'so what if I DO have athing about money, maharaji doesn't care'. The Jagdeo stuff and all the revisionism she would not even address.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:10:39 (EST) From: Marshall Email: None To: SC Subject: Re: SC The Idiot Message:

Are you serious? You and your brain dead compatriot catweasel, if either one of you are even real, not creations of a creative ex trying to make rawatts followers look as stupid and heartless as possible. I hope you aren't real people, because if you are, you are two of the most pathetic fools I've ever encountered. Unbelievable, absolutely incredible how twisted and sick this cult has made some of these people.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:44:00 (EST) From: The solution to troll infestation Email: None To: Marshall Subject: If you can't stop yourself from responding Message:

Run circles around them using their own device - anonymity. Give them a dose of their own medicine. Say whatever you want to say to them anonymously.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:32:20 (EST) From: Catonic Cat Email: None To: The solution to troll infestation Subject: Terminal Shock Message:

Fuck that is REALLY scary. Tell me shit for brains what would be the fucking difference??? Do you think any of you cyberfools actually conjure up the image of some-one I know? You are the most narrow minded decietful fools on the whole web barr the John Birch society. As a matter of fact I was watching 'The Great Race' on the Box last night and you guys really reminded me of team 3+4. Pat and Joe-Life partners rock climbing- like the coupla spiders you really are.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:25:19 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Catonic Cat Subject: Freudian slip or queerbaiting? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:36:26 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: The solution to troll infestation Subject: WOW... Innovation! Message:

You idiot Patwick Dragonwick.... More than half the ex-premie troll posters (on both sites) are anonyrats already!!! Oh yes... can you provide some evidence that the so called car victim was a 'hindu premie'? Haven't heard that choice little spin before. Interesting to see a little creative fabrication coming in to help this tired old nag - but gee, it still just ain't seem to be going no place! But somehow, I think you guys are beginning to edge back towards your already documented, highly questionable and libellously malicious claims. It wouldn't surprise me if another clobbering is on it's way - after all ...it is ATTENTION you poor 'saved' cult victims so desperately seek eh? just a hunch.... Keep blustering Joe up, he's on a roll and I reckon is about ready to drop a real clanger!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:50:40 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Joe Subject: Rawat's private life Message:

I have heard John MacGregor refer to these things as part of Mahraji's 'personal life' and potentially not relevent to our discussions here. I'm not exactly sure if John meant that was his opinion, or whether premies have suggested that to him. Of course the man is entitled to go home after a hard day out propagating, & not have to put up with people gawking through his windows as he unwinds over his glass of mint tea. If he's who he says he is, that is ;the teacher,the master, the perfect master, the satguru, & going back to his roots which he seems to have forgotten about, the Lord of the Universe. If he isn't who he said he was then the difference between the behaviour he expected of his followers & his own is highly relevant. Actually, even if he is the incarnation it's even more relevant,suggesting as it does a Universe created by a buffoon with a nasty streak. That was where the elastic band snapped for me. Finding out about his private life, & that was before the M.Dettmers posts,did it. I think our discussions here are far from over.I for one would like those who were prepared to pimp for god,turn a blind eye,run with the divine hypocrite, to spill more of the beans so the peons can know. There is a back door to this Alamo you guys.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:19:02 (EST) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: PatD Subject: Hi PatD! ot Message:

Hey there Pat. How are you? You never mince words, lad, and that is why I always read your posts. I also saw you pipe up to defend me here and there with the trolls and about CAC. Thanks! Love, Marianne

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:59:03 (EST) From: Felix the Cat Email: None To: Joe Subject: Hey Joe, where you going with that Gun Message:

Where is the rule book Mr DicKhead > Article 3.45: A master shall not have sex with?...What do you think this is? Leviticus? You are making a value judgement based on your judaic/christian childhood.Pity you cant free yourself of the blinkers imposed on you as a child.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:11:18 (EST) From: Jerry Email: None To: Felix the Cat Subject: What if it was you? Message:

Hey, Felix, if Maharaji asked you to blow him, would you? After all, it's only sex, right? Or does article 3.46 say 'a master may have sex, except with other men?' Where do you draw the line, you dumb fuck? And remember this is a married man that's screwin' around behind his wife's back. But he's still a master, right? You're jsut so fucking easy. I bet after he came in your mouth, you'd say 'thank you master', wouldn't you? You'd treat it like it was holy nectar. Asshole.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:02:37 (EST) From: Pauline Premie Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Isn't this typical??? Message:

You ex-premies are just so irreverent and mean. What a rotten thing to say and what language. And to answer your questions, he did and I did. It was pure nectar, and I was so overwhelmed I wet my pants.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:08:31 (EST) From: Tami Email: None To: Pauline Premie Subject: Mi To Message:

Ifter I had mi brests inlarjed Miragi let me do it, u no, wat yu sed. Ifterwirds i sed thank yu mastir. Butt hee nevir caled mi agin. It wuz mi wun big chance. I em so greatful. Du yu think enjoinglife.cum wil exsept this stori frum mi as my 'day?' So far they wunt post it. Wy?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:30:57 (EST) From: Felix the... Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Re: What if it was you? Message:

Thanks.That will look beautiful.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:59:08 (EST) From: Jerry Email: None To: Felix the... Subject: What will look beautiful? Message:

What, are you crazy? I think so. What will look beautiful, his come all over your face? What are you talking about?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:07:19 (EST) From: The Cat Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Attention Lurkers Message:

And again. I love it when you profess to be reasonable,above board and sanguine. Then you show us all who you really are. You think maybe the Press will be impressed. You dickhead.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:11:15 (EST) From: Tami Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I think is 'cum' not 'come' (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 12:19:26 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Felix the Cat Subject: Cat, this POV insults every other religion [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:08:44 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Cat's POV insults simple human decency [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:25:41 (EST) From: cat Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: K is not a religion(nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:30:01 (EST) From: DLM, Elan Vital...Registered.... Email: None To: cat Subject: religion since 1972 (NT) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:36:10 (EST) From: Registrar of Cat Churches Email: None To: DLM, Elan Vital...Registered.... Subject: Semantics!And watch that space. Message:

You just lucked out.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:10:20 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Spot on for saying so! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:48:28 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Deborah Subject: OOHHH whoopeeee Message:

we won! we won! we won!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:53:08 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Felix the Cat Subject: I love it when Cat actually tries to be serious Message:

There's nothing as funny as Cat trying to actually say something. Because when he does, he says some real doozies. Only a very, very stupid cult member would say that it matters not if a so-called spiritual Master, one whose devotees literally worship him and who demnads that they 'NEVER QUESTION THE PURITY OF THE MASTER', has sex with them. Your'e hilariously stupid, Derek.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:34:32 (EST) From: Cat Email: None To: Jim Subject: Pure abuse Message:

You can't read. I said there is no manual of operation. OK Clive?You are barking to the audience ugly man not me.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:04:28 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Cat Subject: Hey Derek. Message:

Hey Derek, Where are you going with your head up your arse? Hope you're still enjoying the view. Anth the realised soul.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:20:19 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Felix the Cat Subject: Check out the History Message:

The history of holy con men sexually abusing their devotees is there for anyone to read. I think most normal people would find it significant that Maharaji does the same thing. Plus, people should be warned about it, since Maharaji has done his darndest to hide his sins against the trust people have put in him. But you don't care and that's up to you, but then since I don't think Maharaji has been sexually into men (or cats) you personally have nothing to worry about, and who gives a shit about anyone else, right? I'm sure it's those values that attracted you to Maharaji in the first place. BTW Felix, just for fun, think about how many of those women would look twice at a 5-foot, obese Indian guy with a squeaky voice if they didn't think he was God? Interesting question, don't you think?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:39:06 (EST) From: Felix the... Email: None To: Joe Subject: It's full of traitorous ambitious men. Message:

You are accepting Dettmers completely, no questions.I think he is full of shit. He was full of shit back then and still is.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:16:10 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Felix the... Subject: It isn't just Dettmers Message:

Linda Smith, one of M's personal lawyers told me the same thing in the 80s. Ask her, I think she's still a premie. BTW- Has Maharaji ever denied any of this? If it isn't true, why hasn't he?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 08:43:22 (EST) From: Sulla Email: None To: Felix the Cat Subject: values BOBO Message:

We are talking about values you dummy, bobo. You don't have to be religious or belong to any religion to have them. That's inherited to the human race. Did you hear about the voice of your conscience. Maharaji shut up his, and now he wants to shut up yours.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 08:59:14 (EST) From: Felix the... Email: None To: Sulla Subject: Re: values BOBO Message:

I see. And I suppose you have been celibate all your life. Congratulations.I think you should re-read Dettmers so-called allegations. He assumes. My point is there are no rules.You are applying your own values.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:12:28 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Felix the... Subject: You imply MD is lying.. Message:

You persistently repeat your implication that Dettmers is lying about the procuring of women for the express purpose of M's sexual gratification. (As if you were there and he wasn't...) Don't you think MD would have one hell of a lot to lose perpetuating a libel on that scale if there were no substance in his claims? And to gain what? Mike's active role in events is hardly one that anybody would be proud of. And if the allegations are false, M's lawyers could and SHOULD have issued writs by now That would be by far the easiest way to silence god-bod's most damaging critic, don't you think? Or, no, perhaps you really don't think. (BTW: these are not 'so-called' allegations. They are allegations.)

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:16:35 (EST) From: Cat Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Re: You imply MD is lying.. Message:

Hullo Nigel. The Law? The simple fact is that this is 'He says-You say'. It is a litigation process that would be ruled primarily on hearsay. Expensive . Risky and not usually pursued.Documentation is the basis of Libel. Original documentation. Not documentation of hearsay. So it is unlikely to happen. Frankly I dont think you guys here are rated any higher than annoying little flies.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:54:40 (EST) From: You know darn well Email: None To: Cat Subject: Not hearsay, MD pimped for him [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:38:03 (EST) From: The JudgeCat Email: None To: You know darn well Subject: Dettmers is terminally deluded(nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:22:10 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: Cat Subject: First hand experience is not hearsay Message:

First hand experience by the person providing the evidence is not hearsay. Like John Macgregor said, these premie posts are only made to derail the discussion.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:50:10 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Boy are premie trolls freaking out or what??????? Message:

marianne, It's not like this is the first time it's been mentioned. Hmmmm, just got an incoming clue! Is it because it's on the front page of the EPO news rather than posted somewhere Premsters have to read, like in the archives? So, when it hits the front page, Boom! Out come the premie troll police. What a bunch of maroons? John McGregor was spot on about their purpose here. This is not about balanced point of view. It is about disrupting the forum so premies won't want to read. Apparently sucking your snot and poking your eyeballs and ears is not what it's cut out to be. PREMIES! THESE GUYS DO THIS FOR A LIVING. PRETTY UGLY ISN'T IT! Watch, David Roupell (SC) or Derek Harper (CW) will probably come back at me with an "your so ugly post" because that's his tactic. Watch, you'll see. It's a debunking and confusing game he's playing so you won't want to read the forum. But Gerry is going to get another forum and have them blocked. He's working on it. Don't worry, they'll be gone.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:41:52 (EST) From: Quoll Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: Boy are premie trolls freaking out or what? Message:

Get this staight. My name is Schmee Agin.I'll be there. I will not desert you.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:44:56 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Boy are you ugly!!! Message:

your mind is a real dirt dude classic of frightening blackness! man, I'd pay $1000 to be a fly on the wall watching a day in your life. forget horror flicks!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:01:29 (EST) From: michael donner Email: None To: Felix the... Subject: Re: values BOBO Message:

so, there are no rules, only a matter of values...is that your point cat? generally accepted codes of behaviour for public people should be considered here. most sexual harrasment is based upon a power differential...the boss, the lord or someone in power, using that position, or because of that position...taking some advantage of it for personal gratifiction...that is the point here. and having talked to two of the victims, both felt abused and used by m. that if it were not for his position of power in their lives it would not have been an issue. but it was not simple concentual sex...there were many layers of emotional and psychological factors that played into the abusive nature of the situation for them. perhaps others in the field of counselling and other forms of privileged relationships can comment from this point of view better than i can. come off it cat, its more then a matter of my values and your values.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:52:28 (EST) From: Cat Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Re: values BOBO Message:

It's one persons word. A very unhappy disgruntled person.The whole premise is based on assumption. It is assumption that I am not prepared to make. Dettmers has an axe to grind. So far his has been a lone voice. No-one has substantiated his claims. Many have repeated them(e.g J McG) but no one has substantiated them. Be that as it may there is something fundamental here.Codes of behavior are Moral codes. What is the code you speak of based on? Judaic / Christian values.OK for Politicians. They have to appease the electorate. All of it. I'm not commenting on whether it's right or wrong, merely on the fact that the values expressed here would sit well with right wing Christian groups. Do we still live in that world? I dont.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:53:42 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Cat Subject: The real question Cat is... Message:

Are these people getting enough???? CLEARLY NOT!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:33:12 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Cat Subject: Jesus you are an idiot Message:

Did you bother to read Donner's post? He said he talked to two of the women M fucked and they felt abused. That is direct corroboration of Dettmers' testimony. Okay, so tell us why you don't want to believe Donner as well.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:20:39 (EST) From: Cat Email: None To: Joe Subject: Oh ..Duuuuh Message:

I read that. I have former lovers who feel that way. So do you. That doesn't make a case.I addressed Dettmers more specific clains.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:49:50 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cat Subject: ^^^^^IGNORE THIS TROLL^^^^^And.... Message:

This troll has diverted the conversation once again. The issue was brought up about the dynamics of abuse of power using sex. So I shall ignore what it said. It's not only a cult dynamic or characteristic, it is also a symptom of the inability to empathize. He expresses his need for power and control on all levels. That's m's MO. Yet outside of the cult, it happens similarly, as Mike Donner said above, abuse of power using sex happens in corporate America today. The clinker here is that maharaji is the LORD in the eyes of his victims. That abuse is much greater IMO. It indicates a character flaw which prevents him from doing anything about Jagdeo. There is the fear of exposure, too. Later... Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:24:07 (EST) From: Cat Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: You have no right to exclude my opinion. Message:

There is no reason for you to expect to control the issues here.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:29:46 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Cat Subject: Yes she does Message:

Your 'opinion' is worthless. You're an anoymous troll (named Derek Harper) who does not engage in honest discourse. You've proven that time and again. In fact, I understand that you're actually quite screwed up. Your opinion's of no effect. None.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:02:42 (EST) From: Collins Boulevarde Cat Email: None To: Jim Subject: Fairy Land Message:

I love being Derek Harper. After you work out that I am NOT Derek Harper(Nice spin though shithead!), can I be say the guy out of Miami Vice? Love fast cars... You are such a dropkick Jimbo..

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:14:28 (EST) From: Hey Don- over here Email: None To: Collins Boulevarde Cat Subject: Correction-Collins Ave Cat!(nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:04:11 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Jim Subject: No effect? ha ha Message:

No effect Jimbo? Na, of course not, only the effect of poking your ass you until you make such lowlife statements as this... 'In fact, I understand that you're actually quite screwed up.' You smarmy prick

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:28:34 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: SC Subject: Sorry, SC, I didn't mean to leave you out Message:

I acutally understand you're BOTH screwed up and that people don't respect your opinion even within the cult. Sorry, Dave, I didn't mean to leave you out.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:46:26 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's better! Message:

Thanks Jimbob, but golly, now I'm an unwanted outsider of both cults? OOOh noo...the loneliness..... the loneliness!!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:28:47 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cat Subject: I wasn't excluding your opinion... Message:

I merely pointed out how crafty you were in changing the focus of the conversation to you instead of the issues presented. That's all she wrote, to you, anyway

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:12:49 (EST) From: Public Opinion Cat Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: You do and you did Message:

She?Do you always refer to yourself in the third person? Or have you been around Pat for too long. Everyone is 'she ' to Pat.Pat? PS: By calling me a troll, denigrating me and agreeing with dis-allowing my participation here? OH YES YOU WERE!!

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 02:29:04 (EST) From: CAC Patrol Email: None To: Public Opinion Cat Subject: More unnecessary queer-bashing [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:30:14 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Cat Subject: Re: values BOBO Message:

You live in a world where lies are truth, where if what I say contradicts what I do , do what I say anyway. Where I am number 1 & you should appreciate the fact. Where making judgements about shitty behaviour is 'judgemental'. Where muddying the waters is a legitimate tactic. If you've moved beyond the world of moral codes into that of dog eat dog then I hope you have a strong set of teeth. FUCK OFF FOREVER

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:12:24 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Jagdeo/Maharaji... Message:

Thanks Mike, that was a concise description of the abuse of power. I do think that because m has abused/assaulted? women who are/were under his spell of power he doesn't have the ability to empathize with victims of Jagdeo's abuse. Jagdeo used his position of power to sexually assault children, Maharaji used his greater position of power in the cult to sexually abuse women who looked at him as lord. I cannot imagine that and fully believe he is clueless about his lack of values, etc., not to mention how inappropriate the behavior is. It isn't consentual sex. This also tells me that there is no feeling of empathy by m toward those women, and similarily he has no empathy toward the children assaulted by Jagdeo. Same dynamic. Anyone who uses power to exploit someone sexually has a character flaw. It's criminal behavior, IMO. Definitely a huge character flaw. Good to hear from you Mike, Best, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:41:47 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: Joe Subject: It's tied to Jagdeo abuse Message:

Maharaji's willingness to engage in sexual escapades with women followers is one reason why he is unable to deal properly with Jagdeo's sexual abuse. Marianne

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:30:07 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Of course it is, Marianne Message:

Maha knows darn well that if he prosecutes his holy men, the dope will come out on him. Maha also doesn't want to awaken the memories of the premies he spiriutally and sexually coerced because there's a loaded trial waiting for him. I hope the premie women come forward ASAP.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:06:54 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Yes, Marianne Message:

It's all part of the cult craziness, selfishness and antisocial mores. And we all know who creates those mores.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:25:16 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Why do you say that? Message:

Interesting. How do you think the two things are connected? BTW - voted for Herrera this morning; I think it's going to be very close (East side v. West side).

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 13:16:21 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Joe Subject: Jagdeo and other abusers Message:

The link is that because of his obvious lack of ethics, Mr Rawat failed to react appropriately when abuse reports arrived on his desk. That's why anybody with enough sense will understand that Mr Rawat is not the right person to have as a 'master' (in case you need one ....) This issue is of utmost importance. Who would want to work or have anything to do with a company, when some of its head executives are known abusers, and when it's also known that NOTHING is done about the situation ?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:15:07 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: It's tied to Jagdeo abuse Message:

Yes, Marianne... I would call it more than sexual escapades with women followers though, I would call it an abuse of power.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 00:25:20 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: And here's your birthday gift, Lord Message:

This just in from a reputable source (hint, it's not Valerio): Amaroo is down to 3 paid staff now...... Key volunteers are resigning too....... There has just been a liquidation sale to get rid of the divine lawnmowers, tractors and other equipment. People are asking 'What will be next?'

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:11:04 (EST) From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: And here's your birthday gift, Lord Message:

Have you done anything worthwhile in your life dude? X

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:38:46 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: I thought you were banned from here? Message:

I thought you were banned seeing as you banned me and Deb from your cult forum? But yes, CD, I've done lots of worthwhile things. For one, I joined a cult, following a young, fat Indian kid we all thought was God. Then, years later, I became a Certified Microsoft Something-or-other which allowed me to buy a ridiculous number of guitars and show them off to my friends. How about you?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:21:49 (EST) From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: I thought you were bananas? Message:

>How about you? Sounds a bit like me.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:59:17 (EST) From: Voice of Conscience.. Email: None To: CD Subject: Chris, in SD you said to Maharaji.. Message:

something to the effect of 'your message has always been consistent'. How do you explain the fact that M once claimed to be the 'Superior Power in Person' and now claims that it was just those darn confused Mahatmas that thrust that title on him??? or that he once talked about 'surrender' to Guru Maharaji and 'only following Guru Maharaji's agya' as the key to 'realizing knowledge' and now just talks about 'gratitude' and 'the preciousness' of breath while accepting money and devotion from people who still stand up and call him 'My Lord' in the audience(a title he somehow neglects to correct at the time). Chris Dickey, Were you being honest when you stood up at the program and told Maharaji that his message 'had always been consistent'???? Or were you succumbing to the incredibly strong peer pressure in the room to only say the 'politically correct' things that Maharaji allowed to be spoken?? Didnt you ignor the 10,000 pound elephant in the room??? That being the fact the Maharaji has TOTALLY denied much of what he once Claimed and Demanded??? and further that there is much evidence that he is Not a Master of the Experience of Knowledge but an Alcoholic who has often Sexually Abused those who were under his sway..and taken Great Pains to hide his real behavior from the very people in the room in San Diego, who, if they had been aware of his Real Behavior, would NOT have being calling him 'Lord' and paying him $100 to swoon at his staged display of Divinity... Chris arent you succumbing to a bit of denial and hypocricy when you criticize Jim while you refuse yourself to look at the REAL Truth about Maharaji??? Its ok if you are. Just Admit it. People in glass houses arent advised to throw stones.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:29:40 (EST) From: CD Email: None To: Voice of Conscience.. Subject: Re: Chris, in SD you said to Maharaji.. Message:

>People in glass houses arent advised to throw stones. First off, your name 'Voice of Conscience' is certainly without merit and misleading. Second, since you seem to know me personally, why the use of a fake name? What are you hiding? You call that honesty? >Were you being honest when you stood up at the program and told Maharaji that his message 'had always been consistent'???? Yes, I certainly was being honest! Post with your real name and I might state my reasons. CD

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:37:17 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: CD Subject: CD, the hypocrite Message:

Two strikes, CD: 1) You ban Jim, Deb and Silvia from your forum but continue to post here. 2) I don't hear you telling SC, CW, WH, Ferd and all the many other cowardly anonymous premies who post on your forum to use their real names before you respond to them. You're such a total fake and phoney - not an ounce of reality, sincerity or honesty in your body.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:18:21 (EST) From: CD Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: the hype Message:

>Two strikes, CD: You know Pat, maybe you are a bit whacked. There hasn't been any ban on Jim and Deb for a long time. At one point they were spamming LG and I blocked them temporarily after they became a huge nuisance. Regarding names, when somebody posts my full name and makes personal references to me I expect them to use their name in the post. Pretty simple huh? Hypocritical? I don't thing so! >You're such a total fake and phoney - not an ounce of reality, sincerity or honesty in your body. How would you know? You don't know me. But you are prone to say things and then have to retract them later. I don't even think 'Voice of Conscience' would call me a fake since that person has known me for many years. CD

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:09:36 (EST) From: Voice of Conscience Email: None To: CD Subject: Chris, You're Right... Message:

I Actually have always liked you alot. Youre a charming guy in your own inimatably disfunctional way. But, Most unfortunately you are , as I was for so many years, Deluded and in Major Denial... Maharaji is a complete Fraud and does not deserve ANY of the Credit for any Bliss that we have experienced nor any of the Attention, Adulation and Devotion that he has milked from us for many years. I Wish you would just admit that, Chris...Everything else is just shuffling deck chairs here...I Hope you are Well and Happy. Earl G.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:02:45 (EST) From: CD Email: None To: Voice of Conscience Subject: Re: Differences ... Message:

>I Hope you are Well and Happy. Earl G. Always good to hear from you! >Deluded and in Major Denial... Maharaji is a complete Fraud and does not deserve ANY of the Credit for any Bliss that we have experienced nor any of the Attention, Adulation and Devotion that he has milked from us for many years I don't see it your way in that I don't think the whole topic is so simple or black and white. Did you see our other very old friend speak in San Diego? I was suprised by her clear words expressing thanks for a life she appears to truely enjoy. There has been misplaced attention and adulation directed at M. There should only be praise if people really feel the inspiration for praise. Anything else is fake or worse, misguided and even potentially destructive. Many people have been inspired by things M has said and the meditation in a positive way. Many have not. I don't have an explanation for the different perceptions. I have come out of the many years with a positive respect for life, people and hope for the future. There is plenty of evil in the world. Yet I still believe and feel that there is something fundamentally good in people. I do not believe that our society pays enough explicit tribute to that potential inside people. We are easily distracted by our daily tribulations, chores and material quests. I must admit I am distracted because I am off right now to go play some guitar at the local bar. Cheers, CD

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:34:47 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: ***HA HA HA -- CD DRAWS A DISTINCTION!*** Message:

>I Hope you are Well and Happy. Earl G. Always good to hear from you! >Deluded and in Major Denial... Maharaji is a complete Fraud and does not deserve ANY of the Credit for any Bliss that we have experienced nor any of the Attention, Adulation and Devotion that he has milked from us for many years I don't see it your way in that I don't think the whole topic is so simple or black and white. Did you see our other very old friend speak in San Diego? I was suprised by her clear words expressing thanks for a life she appears to truely enjoy. There has been misplaced attention and adulation directed at M. There should only be praise if people really feel the inspiration for praise. Anything else is fake or worse, misguided and even potentially destructive. Many people have been inspired by things M has said and the meditation in a positive way. Many have not. I don't have an explanation for the different perceptions. I have come out of the many years with a positive respect for life, people and hope for the future. There is plenty of evil in the world. Yet I still believe and feel that there is something fundamentally good in people. I do not believe that our society pays enough explicit tribute to that potential inside people. We are easily distracted by our daily tribulations, chores and material quests. I must admit I am distracted because I am off right now to go play some guitar at the local bar. Cheers, CD --- It's a bit painful watching you try to think, Chris, but this part here is hilarious: There has been misplaced attention and adulation directed at M. There should only be praise if people really feel the inspiration for praise. Anything else is fake or worse, misguided and even potentially destructive. I take it, then, that if you're a truly lost cult lifer, worshipping the false Lord of the Universe is okay, huh? You're a total idiot. Worse, you're offensively smug. What have YOU done so great for the world recently?

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:04:26 (EST) From: CD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: ***HA HA HA -- CD DRAWS A DISTINCTION!*** Message:

>You're a total idiot. Worse, you're offensively smug. Jim, Maybe my old friend could fill you in that you are a punk that I would have no trouble with. That includes both mental and physical realms. Good day.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:14:26 (EST) From: CD Email: None To: CD Subject: Re: music Message:

Jim, I should have added guitar playing punk. You may not be as great on the Les Paul as you claim to be. But then I do give you some credit. You may be a good musician. Maybe one day we will have a jam. Yeah, I did buy a new one. Here it is CD

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:37:39 (EST) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: ***HA HA HA -- CD DRAWS A DISTINCTION!*** Message:

I hear Chris can't even dodge a stream of milk from a well-aimed mammary.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:53:38 (EST) From: CD Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Re: ***HA HA HA -- CD DRAWS A DISTINCTION!*** Message:

>I hear Chris can't even dodge a stream of milk from a well-aimed mammary. I just don't try to. But who told you, the ex-premie that used to post that new me from the old days?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:52:48 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: CD Subject: Well, maybe I'm wrong ... Message:

...but at least I know when I've made a mistake and admit it.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:48:18 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: CD Subject: You never lifted the ban Message:

Why are you saying that? Where was the announcement? I would click on the LG forum every once in a while and it was blocked. I questioned you often about the fairness of the ban. And CD, I could have gone into LG on a number of occasions in a number of ways with you knowing or not knowing. But I didn't because I respected the ban, as unfair as it was. We were never nameless trolls. And nobody at LG ever had any respect for discussion. Do you wonder why posts got inflamatory. NObody was real.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:15:48 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Please come back Deb... Message:

I want a day's 'disgustion' with you just a few of your glorious utterings tp ponder over....... come on....

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:05:14 (EST) From: CD Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: You never lifted the ban Message:

You have been able to post on LG for quite a long time. Fine as long as you don't spam the place. Good to read you have nice words for Carlos. Hope school has worked out for you. CD

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:26:45 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm surprised... Message:

Maharaji didn't have a liquidation sale of the staff and held onto the lawnmowers, tractors and equipment. There is always a line of 'students' who want to be 'staff.' Lawnmowers are a lot more trouble to replace.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:04:49 (EST) From: michael donner Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: I'm surprised... Message:

i wonder what some of the lavish gifts given to m on the occasion of dec 1 0 this year are/were? anyone?

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:10:44 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: ***HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MAHARAJI!*** Message:

ELK has a couple of reports about the Miami program. I was taking a look when I realized what day it was and how I didn't even buy him a card! Oh well ... A celebration of life Miami Beach, 8 December 2001 Thanks to Jo Robinson from the UK and Ivete Belfort Mattos from Brazil for these two reports: From Jo: Pink. Turquoise. White. Art Deco architecture – Miami! Here on the South Beach, the day starts sunny and warm, in contrast to the day before which was overcast and rainy. Walking down to the Miami Beach Conference Centre in the afternoon, we share happy conspiratorial glances with other people walking our way, I was thinking about this, remembering all those 'happy conspiratorial glances' we used to share back when I was in the cult. But we were all young, thin, unwrinkled. Those glances were rife with the bemused, selfrighteous and downright happy vibe of a bunch of young people who knew they happened to be the first followers of the Lord of the Universe, come to save us all. What about now? How can these guys still get it up to smile at each other in ANY way, let alone with that 'Happy Conspiracy' feeling? I'd be embarrassed. In fact, probably the best thing about being a PAM, I imagine, is that you're considered too in, too sophisticated, too something to have to indulge in that Happy Conspiracy Glance shit. God that must get old! Realising we have been sitting in the wrong seats, when their rightful owners come to claim them, we discover that we are, in fact, nearer to the front than we originally thought – a happy discovery. Do the Jehovah's Witnesses worry about seating at that big picnic table you always see on the cover of The Watchtower? The one where they're all getting ready for the picnic to end all picnics, lions and lambs over there, a couple of Nigerians walking over here? This is premie heaven. Heaven on earth. But excuse me, sir, I believe you're in my seat. This, however, prompts me to remember the first time I ever saw Maharaji at a big event. I sat right at the top, as far back and as far away as it was possible to be, whilst feeling that he was talking to me alone, and that we were the only people there. Of course, Maharaji had no idea who you were, didn't give a damn and played you for decades ever since like Forrest Gump's stupid brother. The following is just some of what I can remember Maharaji saying, and it's not necessarily in the order in which he said it. No doubt when I see a video or broadcast of this event, I'll wonder why I forgot so much of it, but I hope it gives you a little taste of what he said, with apologies for the paraphrasing. How servile! Listen, friend, don't be so hard on yourself. You forgot so much of it because he's not saying anything AND it's the same not saying anything he's been doing for decades. What's to remember? The event started at around 5:30 pm. Maharaji came onto the stage, and motioning everyone to sit down, acknowledged the applause. Then Daya came onto a side stage, looking beautiful in a dress that looked as if it was covered in stars, and accompanied by a pianist proceeded to sing a jazz style song about letting the experience be real. I really wonder what that gig is all about. Daya ... Dad ... all the Happy Clappers. Who's she anyway? Why should SHE get such prominence? I mean, either there's a magic gene in the Rawat clan or there isn't. If there isn't, then, well, this is sheer neoptism. I'm going to complain to the Council of Churches. BEING PRACTICAL Maharaji then started talking about how much we compromise, in the name of 'being practical'. He talked about the meeting with the aspirants the day before, and how he had told them that the next time they looked at a tree, to consider all that was right about it. Hey, THAT's practical! Now you're talking! Knowledge is not about good and bad, but just shows life as it is. Likewise, for the tree to grow, so many things were right – not right as in right and wrong, but right because the possibility could manifest.There are only two kinds of 'right' and the other one's spelled 'write'. So take your pick, guru. You use the word, you MEAN the word. And don't think you can just throw a wolly dumbass work like 'manifest' at it to make it do some kind of magic. That isn't on anymore. The seed was good, in that it could grow, and everything that was needed for it to grow was there. Perhaps droughts and fires had come, but they weren't bad enough to kill the tree, and it could continue to grow. To be able to look at life, simply like that, not the rights and wrongs, but just as it is, simple. Yes? Finish the sentence, guru. How about 'To be able to look at life like that, not the rights and wrongs, but just as it is, simple, is nothing much really.' He talked about how birds fly without the checklists that pilots need, and of how little baby birds stretch their tiny wings and try to fly. Even though they can't yet fly, they still make that effort, and he said that effort was a noble thing. I'm sorry, but only a fool could still eat up this rank and shameless anthropomorphism. And yet it's been Maharaji's stock-in-trade all the time we've known him. 'Oh look, how the faithful computer key just lets you keep pounding and pounding. And each time it keeps jumping right back up. It never creeps off the keyboard. It doesn't hide behind other keys. And it sure as hell doesn't ask a lot of pesky questions! Be a little more like that key, will 'ya?' IS IT POSSIBLE TO REMEMBER EVERY BREATH? A recent question he particularly liked, he said, was 'Is it possible to remember every breath?'. And many people laughed when he said that he felt a lot of people were waiting for the answer. But he wasn't saying yes, and he wasn't saying no! It was the effort that was important – to try to remember to make the effort. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't he specifically resile from the 24/7 breath thing not so long ago? Many people, he said try to solve all their problems. This was not a happening thing, he reminded us! We worry about the past, and there is something that all of us would like to go back to and put right – however trivial. We worry about what the future will bring, and we think that a possible solution is to not worry. But he came up with another solution. Yes, yes, yes. I know the feeling. Sometimes I worry about all the people I tricked into thinking I was God and all the confusion that caused. Better just drop it, huh? Thanks for the advice. The master he said, suggests not that you don't worry, because that's impossible, but that you worry about this moment, worry about this breath, rather than worrying about the past and the future. In court today, I should have said something like that. 'M' Lord, if it's all the same to you, I must say, I'm not REALLY worried about that bit of evidence going in. No, sire, I'm actually a bit concerned about this breath, if you know what I mean. It's the moment, M'Lord. The moment.' Simplicity is profound, and when the master is no longer there, people write books about what he said. Yet it is more profound when it's actually being said! It's easy to appreciate what you had, but harder to appreciate what you have. Oh Maharaji, please don't ever leave us!!!! FROM UNCERTAINTY TO CERTAINTY What we have a lot of, is this breath, and if only we could truly appreciate that, we would recognise how much we have, that the fulfilment we want is inside us. He talked about how human beings all have that possibility of fulfilment. Someone who is thirsty in the desert, has thirst but it comes with an uncertainty about whether it can be fulfilled. But to know that the water is near changes that uncertainty. Just to know that, brings relief and hope. Maharaji talked about a magazine article describing how society lacked kindness. Whilst acknowledging that kindness was desirable, he made the point that the lack of kindness was linked to the frustration that people feel, and the lack of happiness in their own lives. He used, as an example, asking young children to smile. If they feel a genuine reason to smile, they do, spontaneously. But if you ask them to smile, they grimace, or look very unnatural, with a 'cheesy grin' as if saying 'cheese' for a photographer! It's the same if you ask them to sleep – they don't just relax. Their eyes are fluttering, or they can't resist opening one eye! The feeling has to be there before they can respond. Adults though, learn how to smile and have parties where all they do is try to be happy. It was cute, I guess, when the young teenage Lord of the Universe mugged for us all, played the part of the cosmic Peter Pan, blowing out all the stuffiness and pretentions of age and responsibility. But this tired invocation of the mythical child is getting really, really old already. No? He mentioned that flicking through the TV channels, he had seen a trailer for a Clint Eastwood movie. He then recalled the famous 'Make my day!' line. This, Maharaji said, wasn't a one-way conversation with his creator! HAPPY EVER AFTER The story of the master, Maharaji said is a very different. He gave the example of Cinderella, and said he had always had a hard time with it. He could just about go along with the pumpkin turning into a coach and the rats turning into coachmen, but he could never understand the slipper part. Why didn't the prince just look for Cinderella? The shoe could have fit someone else! The 'happy ever after' can be a reality for us, if we seek to be happy now, in this breath. Just once I'd like to see someone get a chance to tear apart his stupid stories the way he does every one else's. God, Cinderella. Is nothing sacred? He talked about the manifestation of grace in our lives. Yesterday he said that one of the aspirants had very sincerely said to him that they were grateful and felt grace in their life, and a manifestation of that was how other drivers let them into the flow of traffic when they were feeling that. Maharaji explained that grace was in being given this breath, not in traffic nor in rainbows. But how he must have smiled knowing that he'd created yet another cult member out of nothing but smoke and mirrors. This guy doesn't even have Knowledge yet. All he's got are some videos and already he thinks God's controlling traffic for him. Why, God didn't start doing that for me until I'd moved into the ashram. SOMETHING WE ALREADY KNOW The master doesn't introduce you to anything new, he said, rather he reunites you with something you already know. He talks about what is familiar, not strange. What is simple, yet profound. After speaking for about an hour, Maharaji finished, and Daya came onto the side stage again and sang another beautiful jazz-style song about the 'elegance' of existence, Maharaji then left the stage and a short but moving video was played of him talking over still shots of various audiences. Information on the screens told us the event would begin at 10:30 am. tomorrow, and the hall emptied. The event continues! From Ivete: CELEBRATION OF LIFE The event is a real celebration. Maharaji talked about the true happiness of existence: the joy of being alive as well as the profound feeling of being thirsty and quenching that thirst. I experienced the desire to really live every moment not just as I imagined, but aware of the precious life each breath brings. Good girl, Ivette. You sound like a premie wind-up doll. Once more Maharaji reinforced the simplicity of being alive. The event itself is simple and full of kindness and beauty. A pure demonstration of the clarity of love. It is unique! --- - Footnote: more cameras than of late were in evidence at the event - including one mounted on a track near the front of the hall. This could mean a change in the quality of broadcasts...

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:50:45 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: LOL, ****BEST OF***** too Message:

Stingingly funny and incisive...

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:26:21 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: LOL, ****BEST OF***** too Message:

Jim, That's hilarious. Really glad I'm out. BTW, how's your hand?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:51:06 (EST) From: Felix the >>> Email: None To: Jim Subject: This is very kind of you Jim Message:

If we ignore your snorts ,gasps and sighs , we get a lovely personal description of the day from a sweet unaffected person. Thamks Jim. This is a great service you are providing here! Dont feel you have to comment. Relax and enjoy. And...have a nice day )}

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:22:29 (EST) From: Andrea Eriksonn Email: None To: Felix the >>> Subject: Absolutely! And don't forget these fine quotes... Message:

... from the event: 'We should be to joy like the moth is to the light... we need to be addicted to clarity [and it's source, the Master]...we need to persevere like a river, which never takes a break or stops....in earnest, change our attention to what 'is.' Abandon our bad habit of paying attention to things [F7 and ex-students] that are not good for us, and acquire the habit of appreciation...fall in love with simplicity, joy, peace, and tranquility.' [Fall in love with the Master, He is the key] 'Don't pay attention to the doubtmaker.' 'People ask, how do you know about God? God is a feeling and comes when everything else is removed.' [God comes when the smart cards filter out troublemakers, and donations have been collected and he can be reasonalby sure no one will ask any pesky questions. Poor Maharaji, it's so hard to be You-Know-Who!] 'When I was young, God was prevalent in the family. I wanted something simple. My father said: I can show you God. I felt that was something different.'[Nod, wink, knowing smile] 'There's this song - 'my boat is moving because of you.' Why do you jump out of the boat to the alligators of fear and anger and confusion? [F7 and ex-students] The reason is because of doubt.'[AND the people who indulge in it - DON'T talk to them, you're asking for trouble!] NO ONE ELSE will tell you to pay attention to being alive and be grateful, not the Dali Lama or Mother Teresa or Nan Long Thach, whatever his name is, that Fake Teacher Budhist guy who thinks he has something to say because he forgives people who tortured him. Whatever. All those other Fake Teachers, they just steal some of Maharaji's best ideas. Which leads me to some of the other stuff Maharaji said: 'Put down your bag of burdens, and collect the precious.' 'Breathe every breath with meaning.' 'We don't have to borrow clarity or happiness. It's there. Clarity is there. Be attentive to peace and joy, and they will stay. Create a space so they can dance.' 'Don't pay attention to the doubtmaker.' 'Knowledge is for those who are free' 'Come because you want to.' 'Become familiar with that which lets you have feelings.' 'What about your breath? We say, I'm too busy. And then when the last one comes, we say: please, just one more, just one more.' 'Focus on the festival of breath while it is happening.' 'Heart is saying: quench me, fill the cup now.' 'The seed was sown on your farm, and it is best to practice Knowledge when you WANT to practice. Now you have the feast in your life!' 'The one thing we can have an insatiable appetite for is joy, it never gets boring.' 'Enjoy peace now. Take it with joy.' I love it when he says nice stuff like that, but I don't like to over-emphasize it too much, because it sounds very similar to stuff all those Fake Teachers say. It just doesn't work when other people say that stuff, because they don't have the divine juju and correct lineage. When those Fake Teachers say stuff like this, it just leaves me stone cold, because when the source isn't You-Know-Who, it's just meaningless twaddle. Yet these Fake Teachers all publish their little books and go on speaking tours, because they are greedy fakes who just want to make money, and confuse people by talking like Maharaji does sometimes, and detract from His very important work. When you buy and read THEIR books, you are hurting Mahraji. Knowledge has everything you need. This is why Maharaji said: 'The difference between Knowledge and assurance from a book, is that a book asks us to disregard our feelings, and (tells us) that our feelings can be wrong... Many things Fake Teacher's say sound similar to things Maharaji often says. But it means nothing, because it's from a confused source. And that's dangerous, because things you read in a Fake Teacher's book might make you disregard your feelings that Maharaji is the only source of real truth and real peace and real happiness in this world. We might make the tragic mistake of thinking we can be happy, conscious and enjoying life WITHOUT The Master. That's why the techniques of Knowledge are secret, and why The Teacher often ridicules books and their authors. He wisely knows they can create doubt in our minds. And ''He's HERE'' to prevent that from happening, which is just one of many reasons why we NEED to have a MASTER, who is also a Teacher, but really You-Know-Who revealing You-Know-What. The Master Himself has said that people without Knowlege are really like dead people anyway, I know I was! Until Maharaji showed me how to go inside, notice my breath, and experience life, I was just like a dead person. Maharaji saved me from not noticing I was alive and breathing. NO ONE ELSE could do that. At least, I don't think so, but I don't like to think about that, because it's too much like doubting... anyhow, let's not go there! Now of course, we don't tell Aspirants that The Teacher is reavealing God to them, and that they are like dead people until that happens, because they might get the wrong idea, if they don't have 'That Understanding' first. You see, they are so confused, they tend to think they are like living people already, and in their ignorance, tend to get offended if you tell them otherwise. And because I'm a nice person, I long ago stopped telling my non-premie family members and friends that they were like dead people. Now I just wait for bad things to happen to them, in hope that adversity will make them more receptive to The Teacher's message. No, people that don't have Maharaji's Knowledge just can't experience life or their breath, they CAN'T, it's not possible, they need LOTS of time watching videos first, so they can get a chance to see Maharaji through our eyes, the way we see Him. That is what propagation is all about, cultivating That Understanding. I often think, ''If only they could see Him through my eyes... then they would see that He's really... You-Know-Who.'' All these quotes are good advice from You-Know-Who, and further proof I'm not in a cult, or even some silly religion (although if push comes to shove, I'll say it's like a mainstream religion, just to shut people up!). M and K are just the undeniable TRUTH, and if you were not so busy doubting and filtering out the good, you would see that. If you had the heart of a child, you wouldn't ask questions, and it would all make sense. - Andrea Eriksonn, Who loves it when the Teacher says ''Don't thank God, Thank The Master.'' He's so much better (and more fun!) than that boring old Jesus guy. Oh, and FYI: Maharaji doesn't answer questions, and as His students, neither will Catweasel or I, so don't bother asking any. His example is good enough for me. We may be nice, but we aren't STUPID. :|

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:58:28 (EST) From: Dot Munchbutt Email: None To: Andrea Eriksonn Subject: Absolutely BEST OF FORUM [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:08:59 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Birthdays are about respect I guess? Message:

This, however, prompts me to remember the first time I ever saw Maharaji at a big event. I sat right at the top, as far back and as far away as it was possible to be, whilst feeling that he was talking to me alone, and that we were the only people there. I had that same experience when I was at the Dylan concert years ago at the memorial arena. I really thought his eyes kept meeting mine, and he was singing to me only. Quite wierd yes, but none the less I adored him for so long. I was even dissapointed that he didn't wave goodbye to me or something when he left the stage. maybe this is something that cult heads depend on eh? that total admiration and respect. It's kind of the first screw they turn, even if they don't know their doing it. Good post Jim. fuooh! Long sucker too.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:20:35 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'You never lie' -- choke, cough, sputter! Message:

Here's Day Two: Celebrate life! Miami Beach, 9 December 2001 Thanks to Lucy Robinson from the UK and Lee Hillyard of Long Beach, California for these two informal reports: From Lucy: A truly magical event Maharaji commented at the beginning of Sunday's event, how quickly the first day had 'clicked by'. It really did seem that this weekend was flying past far too quickly. Sunday's event began as Saturday's had. There were no videos shown before or after Maharaji spoke, but music began and ended the event. Daya sang a few new songs, and accompanied herself on the piano. Then three people took turns to speak to Maharaji from the side of the stage, give him thanks, and tell him about their experiences during their time with Knowledge. It was a very touching, sweet moment, and Maharaji sat and smiled and laughed as they regaled their emotions and gratitude. NURTURE AND PROTECT THE HEART He then spoke about the importance of the heart as the bearer of all the love we feel. His analogy was that of a jar which we might use to keep things in. If, he said, we were told that the jar we had been using to store our marbles and odds and ends in was, in fact, incredibly precious, our priorities would change. No longer would the jar be used to store our junk. The junk would be tipped out, and we would then consider it to be the precious. Our hearts are equally precious was his reminder, and we should nurture and protect them. When he had finished speaking, and Daya had sung another beautiful song, people began to get up, and move around. But Maharaji then reappeared onto the stage (to wild applause, as you can imagine), and proceeded to play one of his own musical compositions. It was a rapturous mix of strong Indian beats with fluid melodies. When he finished this song, the hall was alive with people clapping and shouting their thanks and admiration. Meanwhile however, Maharaji had begun his second piece. Everyone instantly began clapping, until Maharaji began to sing. Everyone fell silent to listen to his voice. Anyone who had heard him sing knows how powerful his voice is. He sang, 'Swing me on this beautiful swing', and raised his hands as an invitation to join in with him. Naturally, everyone did. We then all sang together, lead by his voice. Maharaji wished everyone a happy New Year, and then left the stage. People burst into a round of 'Happy Birthday to You', at which Maharaji playfully poked his head back around the curtain and gave everyone a wave. After this reappearance, no one left their seats for a good ten minutes, hoping to catch another glimpse. It was a truly magical event, from beginning to end. Actually, it sounds like a cult meeting. =============================== From Lee: 'Put down your bags of burden and collect the precious.' At 12 noon EST Daya came out singing with John Adorney at the keyboard ('It must be love'). With Maharaji giving his darshan smiles, and at the end, clapping. A person with Knowledge for 32 years got up to say thank you to Maharaji. He said: 'You never lie.' OHhhhhhhhHHHHHHH! If only ...... errrrrRRRRRRRRR....... A person with Knowledge of 24 years said 'I was in love with you anyway, why Knowledge? I had a little trouble with the word 'master' because of slavery and all. But when I realized what 'master' really meant, it became a beautiful thing, and I learned that receiving Knowledge would bring me closer to you.' A third person stood up to say hank you. He described himself as a 'second generation satsang brat.' When he heard it was going to be Maharaji's videos only, he really wanted to go to satsang. After that he said 'Incredible isn't enough of a word to express how I feel' He told Maharaji he is like the dance song that he likes so much, named 'Flawless.' Daya came back to the stage, singing and playing the piano. At 12:19pm Maharaji began his address. He started by saying we cannot allow life to 'click right along.' He posed the question: what if all that was unnecessary was taken away? Like the coffee filter separates the grounds from the brew, what if in our life we could keep only the good?' 'Put down your bag of burdens, and collect the precious.' 'Breathe every breath with meaning.' 'We should be to joy like the moth is to the light... we need to be addicted to clarity...we need to persevere like a river, which never takes a break or stops....in earnest, change our attention to what 'is.' Abandon our bad habit of paying attention to things that are not good for us, and acquire the habit of appreciation...fall in love with simplicity, joy, peace, and tranquility.' 'We don't have to borrow clarity or happiness. It's there. Clarity is there. Be attentive to peace and joy, and they will stay. Create a space so they can dance.' 'Don't pay attention to the doubtmaker.' 'People ask, how do you know about God? God is a feeling and comes when everything else is removed.' 'When I was young, God was prevalent in the family. I wanted something simple. My father said: I can show you God. I felt that was something different.' 'Knowledge is for those who are free' 'Come because you want to.' 'There's this song - 'my boat is moving because of you.' Why do you jump out of the boat to the alligators of fear and anger and confusion? The reason is because of doubt.' 'The difference between Knowledge and assurance from a book, is that a book asks us to disregard our feelings, and (tells us) that our feelings can be wrong... 'Become familiar with that which lets you have feelings.' 'What about your breath? We say, I'm too busy. And then when the last one comes, we say: please, just one more, just one more.' 'Focus on the festival of breath while it is happening.' 'Heart is saying: quench me, fill the cup now.' 'The seed was sown on your farm, and it is best to practice Knowledge when you WANT to practice. Now you have the feast in your life!' 'The one thing we can have an insatiable appetite for is joy, it never gets boring.' 'Enjoy peace now. Take it with joy.' At 1:05pm Daya came out and sang and played again, 'You are so beautiful to me.' At 1:08 pm Maharaji sat down at his keyboard, and played an Indian bhajan-style song...it had a flute lead with a guitar backup. At 1:16pm He played what I call an rock salsa Indian-style song and he sang: 'Swing me in your beautiful swing.' At 1:23 pm he asked us all to sing along, the whole hall sang along with him: 'Swing me in your beautiful swing.' At 1:25pm he said goodbye and 'Have a ball, have a blast, see you next year, and happy new year.' At 1:26pm we all sang 'Happy Birthday' to him. At 1:27pm he came back out and waved goodbye for the final time. It's amazing how these people fly from all over the world just to have this bozo assure them he's happy. There is no emotional independence in premiedom. I used to worry so often about pleasing him, not pleasing him, blah blah blah. These people ...

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:53:35 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Jim Subject: Different cultures Message:

'When I was young, God was prevalent in the family. I wanted something simple. My father said: I can show you God. I felt that was something different.' God was prevalent in my family too,but if my old man had told me he could show me god I'd've checked it out with the parish priest, who would've probably had him banged up in the nut house, had he persisted. There's so much more room for the spirit to breathe across the hills & far away. Shit, the way Rawat gets away with this stuff humbles me.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:01:12 (EST) From: PatC...but what would you have done Email: None To: PatD Subject: if dad told you he was greater than god?;) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:51:34 (EST) From: What style did LOTU affect Email: None To: Jim Subject: when singing for his cult stooges? Message:

Jerry Lee Lewis, Lil' Richard Liberace a mixture of Snoop Doggy Dog and Ravi Shankar 'It's the question we must ask, ask 'til we know the answer'

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 14:11:09 (EST) From: Another Possibility Email: None To: What style did LOTU affect Subject: like a Hindu Tiny Tim [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:20:25 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Jim Subject: I wonder? Message:

It's amazing how these people fly from all over the world just to have this bozo assure them he's happy. There is no emotional independence in premiedom. I used to worry so often about pleasing him, not pleasing him, blah blah blah. These people ... I wonder how they'd feel coming all that way to hear him say he was very unhappy? maybe this: 'Over there you'll find 30 large tubs of king cobra venom, I'm very pissed off right now......well goodnight! thanks for comen out!'

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