Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Dec 05, 2001 To: Dec 12, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


JHB -:- EPO changes -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:25:07 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Excellent job, JHB -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 18:07:22 (EST)
__ Joe -:- The 14 Points --- Thanks Way -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 13:13:52 (EST)
__ __ such -:- 15 points -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 13:29:06 (EST)
__ Jim -:- All changes good -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 19:36:49 (EST)
__ __ Salam -:- All changes good -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 20:24:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim S. -:- Good work,JHB,esp. FAQ's... -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 23:55:41 (EST)

PatC -:- Counter-cult spies gather secretly in SF -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 20:59:58 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Sorry I missed it -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:47:14 (EST)
__ Auntie Eureeka -:- Re: Counter-cult spies gather secretly in SF -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 07:07:02 (EST)
__ __ Auntie Eureeka -:- Just so you know -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 07:39:10 (EST)
__ Suchabanana -:- r.e. spies: Ashcroft smear:Wash. Post -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 06:01:02 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- You are welcome and thanks ... -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:19:04 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Space Bitches and Krishna Crowns... -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 21:16:24 (EST)

Question re: -:- M's Golden Form -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 06:59:47 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- It was all in the lighting [nt] -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:59:15 (EST)
__ Susan -:- He must have rubbed on Golden sheen -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 23:22:06 (EST)
__ __ he he he -:- Re: He must have rubbed on Golden sheen -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 07:48:31 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- Nope -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:20:12 (EST)
__ Ulf -:- Re: M's Golden Form -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:06:42 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: M's Golden Form -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:51:24 (EST)
__ __ silvia -:- we want all -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:37:19 (EST)
__ Peg -:- Re: M's Golden Form -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:33:09 (EST)
__ __ magiclara -:- Peg! -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:41:48 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Occasionally -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:20:14 (EST)
__ Voyeur -:- Re: M's Golden Form -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 13:12:19 (EST)
__ __ and the sun -:- shines out of his ... -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 07:57:08 (EST)
__ __ janet -:- i was closer than you were, there -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 04:16:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: i was closer than you were, there -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 11:06:24 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- M's Golden Appearance -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 14:02:06 (EST)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- speaking of sponges -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:37:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- What the Hell are sponge sticks? -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 17:52:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Suchus Bananus Maximus -:- Ad latrinas publicas... -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:20:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Forestus Gumpus -:- Stultus est sicut stultus facit. [nt] -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 20:39:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Veni, Vidi, Vici, Spendi... -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 03:07:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Et Cum Spiri Tu Tuo -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 03:08:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborahamus -:- Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione ~) -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:05:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa... -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 03:18:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Adda Canna Panna Sanna -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 12:10:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Is that Moeus Howardicus -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 13:45:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Gabrobocchia !! -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 13:54:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchus bananus -:- hahahahahahaha! [nt] -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 19:30:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Re: hahahahahahaha! -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 13:19:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- So..now you're Suchus Bananus MAXIMUS???LOL! [nt] -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:05:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- hey, if you got dat schwing -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 05:41:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Sona si Latine loqueris -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:03:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- E Plurabus Unam -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 07:58:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- does it matter whether it's... -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 04:24:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ suchus bananus -:- I dig Latin chicks -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 06:12:06 (EST)
__ magiclara -:- Re: M's Golden Form -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 12:41:19 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- yes i did... -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 07:33:31 (EST)
__ __ Peg -:- Re: yes i did... -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:39:16 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- an idea(L)ove -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 19:03:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- PEGS....Sorry -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 13:11:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ peg -:- Loaf! I'M sorry -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 17:53:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Loafie -:- thankyou Pegs, very much [nt] -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 02:25:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Loaf! I'M sorry -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:07:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: Loaf! I'M sorry -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:08:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- post above not what it says in title sorry nt -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:12:38 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: yes i did... -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 14:32:44 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- Re: yes i did... -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 10:04:28 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Bill.....(OT) -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 14:34:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: Bill.....(OT) -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 02:09:30 (EST)
__ __ __ loaf -:- thankyou William. [nt] -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 10:58:28 (EST)
__ __ Thanks -:- His reply to you worth noting -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 08:05:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: His reply to you worth noting -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 08:13:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- That was very lovey dovey, Loaf -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 14:10:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: That was very lovey dovey, Loaf -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 15:16:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Yes, I agree with what you say, so -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 21:08:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: Yes, I agree with what you say, so -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 02:35:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Cold Turkey -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 15:07:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Anger, desire.. atttachments.. -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 02:22:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Being true to a misinformed heart -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 14:19:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Brilliant words, Loafie...NT -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 17:54:23 (EST)

Vicki -:- Is this useful? -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 05:51:26 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- Just checked their website -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 01:53:23 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Fran and Joe -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 06:58:14 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Your kids are sweet! -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 13:58:17 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Hi Vicki -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 20:27:13 (EST)

Loaf -:- Lord of the Universe -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 05:20:43 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Excellent Insight's, Loafie -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:57:04 (EST)
__ Jean Valjean -:- Re: Lord of the Universe -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:35:33 (EST)
__ __ Loaf -:- Re: Lord of the Universe -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 02:54:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean Valjean -:- Re: Lord of the Universe -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 15:34:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ loaf -:- Re: Lord of the Universe -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 05:17:41 (EST)
__ berni -:- Re: Lord of the Universe -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 07:06:01 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- The ex consensus -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 13:18:57 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: The ex consensus -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 13:50:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- A Child in an Adult Bod... -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 14:23:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ cynical -:- marketing strategy -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 08:05:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Your .02 is priceless, Cynthia -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:29:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Your .02 is priceless, Cynthia -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 21:53:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Your .02 is priceless, Cynthia -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:00:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Hey, Deborah! -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:49:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Hey, John! -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 20:14:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- No, in Cancer [nt] -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:58:41 (EST)
__ __ Loaf -:- i AGREE WITH JIM TOO -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 07:43:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Nothing against civility Pullaver -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 22:09:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- I agree with you Moley -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 19:42:27 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- It's okay, I over-reacted -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 19:58:59 (EST)
__ __ Moley -:- Tonette - luv and email if yer like- EV monitor NB -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 20:29:14 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Before you go ....... -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 20:26:33 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Before you go ....... -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 14:29:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You can say that again (maybe?) -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:48:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Jesus, Mary and Joseph! -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 19:43:32 (EST)

Joe -:- Response to EPO -- McDuck's Comments -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 18:16:41 (EST)
__ McDuck -:- Re: Response to EPO -- McDuck's Comments -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 17:14:30 (EST)
__ __ Jim S. -:- Thanks,McDuck,mofre pieces in the puzz;e nt -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 23:25:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- That's easy for you to write ;) [nt] -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 23:56:00 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Wowee! Thanks for that input, McDuck -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 23:08:59 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- This stuff is great! -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 21:33:57 (EST)
__ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: This stuff is great! -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:40:51 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Email -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 18:25:50 (EST)

cq -:- Light diversion - and a mindblower -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:40:03 (EST)
__ cq -:- oops, forgot to mention - -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:42:45 (EST)

PatC -:- International Conference Management -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 13:42:32 (EST)
__ Pullaver -:- Re: International Conference Management -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 23:15:09 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- I'm leaving, I have left, however... -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 22:19:22 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Tonette, I hope you've left by now ;) -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 13:54:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Yep, this is it, checking myself out -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:55:30 (EST)
__ __ JS -:- Tonette, do you remember Vuko? -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 02:41:40 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: International Conference Management -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 17:21:04 (EST)
__ __ Francesca -:- Whoa, thanks Vicki -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 02:36:25 (EST)
__ __ suchabanana -:- yeah, premies put in huge hours -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 00:07:51 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- This is important!!!! -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 19:22:13 (EST)
__ suchabanana -:- 'industrial strength' Conference Management -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:22:17 (EST)
__ __ Inside Edition -:- Remember Jim Vuko anyone? -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 22:40:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Yes, Jim Vuko? -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 01:28:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Sounds very familiar [nt] -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 00:13:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Didn't he -:- wear jumpsuits a lot? ~) ~) [nt] -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 00:12:30 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- For 'industrial strength' church ladies [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 17:46:08 (EST)
__ cq -:- 16 results here, Pat -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:14:02 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- You're right.& I should 'refresh' more often(nt) -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:21:41 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- (not to mention target practice) nt -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:34:50 (EST)
__ __ link # 11 -:- is the same -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:21:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Steve Adler is still around? [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:04:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Steve Adler is still around? -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 16:55:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Think so -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 17:37:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Veg-o-matic -:- Re: Think so -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 00:15:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Ha ha, I saw yesterday myself on net }) -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 19:46:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Inside Edition -:- Aitta Travel - John Davis? (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 23:43:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deobrah -:- Re: Aitta Travel sounds right -:- Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 00:11:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Notice website says NOTHING -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:15:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Notice website says NOTHING -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:27:30 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- It's # 10 but link is broken [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:17:18 (EST)
__ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- Re: International Conference Management -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 13:58:46 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- and the Whois info... -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:09:28 (EST)


Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:25:07 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: jhb@ex-premie.org
To: All
Subject: EPO changes
Message:
I've made some changes to the EPO home page as well as writing a brief intro to the cult issue. I've also put the EV Opposing Views FAQ on line (currently linked from the cult page) although as I've simply used their page (without their linked images) they may complain about copyright:-) If they do, I'll know they are reading this. There's also a link from the home page to the CAC attack.

Let me know if you have any comments.

John.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 18:07:22 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Excellent job, JHB
Message:
I'm impressed how your intro follows smoothly into the background information and encourages reading. Good move.

Such's suggestions are also good. CAC sites and jeapordazing the saferty of SirDave's little girl is something worth mentioning. This could be included w/McDuck's PR about Maha's involvement in damage control. I'm sure premies w/children will sympathize. It's recent and probably more personal.

Thanks again,

deborah

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 13:13:52 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: The 14 Points --- Thanks Way
Message:
John,

I just re-read the '14 points' after not having read them for awhile, and was once again astounded at how it summarizes things so well, and the way you have linked to supporting material is great.

I think this is what EPO was missing for a very long time -- a summary on the 'front page' where someone can get the gist of what ex-premies are talking about.

It's great and makes the site so much more effective. Thanks.

And thanks to Way for originally writing that 14-point summary. More evidence of their effectiveness was that the cult used that summary to try to smear Way on the CAC attack website. I think that's because he really hit the nail on the head, and they know it.

Joe

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 13:29:06 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 15 points
Message:
John,

I think engaging in federal racketeering by ordering the aiding and abetting of criminal fugitives to avoid justic or public exposure [r.e. the attempted assassination of Pat Halley] should definitely be one of the 15 points. Please see the Pat Halley letter today [also, Pat's last letter was intended for posting at epo, too.], as well as Mike Donner's statements. m: 'Get Fakiranand out of the country!'

pax et lenticulae,

da lil swami

PS btw, nice homepage organization, etc. - getting better all the time!
[ http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/objection.htm ]

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 19:36:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: All changes good
Message:
All good moves, John. One thing simple, though, is that I think your 'Webmaster's comments' are in far too small font.

Otherwise great.

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 20:24:44 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: All changes good
Message:
John

Looks good. Though the changes look small, but I know how much work goes into changing the slightest thing. Have you been knighted yet? B)

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 23:55:41 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Good work,JHB,esp. FAQ's...
Message:
I think all of the changes are very good, John.

I think that the FAQ'a are an excellent way to present many of the facts to premies, aspirants and interested people....I can see many more FAQ's to follow that would make excellent reading...

Joe W's responses were excellent, esp. the followup to Mitch Ditkoff's nonsensical piece...

I think a lot of the criticisms aimed at epo can be answered in the FAQ's, and a lot of the criticsms of m can be addressed there as well..

It's nice to invite responses from premies, esp. someone like Mitch, although I doubt it will ever happen...

Also, nice intro to the site....

Good work....

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 20:59:58 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Counter-cult spies gather secretly in SF
Message:
Conspiracy theory: Earlier today six members of the Hate Club gathered at a secret location to scheme and plan a new fundraising project to add to their warchest of millions. The atmosphere was thick with conspiracy and deadly earnestness as these crazed fanatical anti-cult zealots and apostates plotted the overthrow of an innocuous and sweet New Age religion called Maharajism.

Reality: Francesca and her hubby came down to SF to have lunch with Chuck, Andy, Joe and me. We ate chinese take-out in front of the fireplace at the restaurant and talked about longtime mutual friends, reminisced about being premies, argued about politics and religion and had a lot of laughs. (A bit like being here but a lot more fun to see the twinkles in peoples' eyes than black letters on a white screen.)

My biggest laugh was when we were talking about Chuck's doggy darshan website. Joe asked where we had gotten all those little Krishna crowns from. Chuck explained that it was only a pic of a crown pasted onto the doggy pics but I suddenly had a hilarious picture in my mind of Joe thinking that perhaps we had sat around painstakingly making little papier mache crowns for the Spice Bitches.

After lunch we walked down to the beach and strolled along the edge of the waves. It was one of those brilliant winter days. A few mackerel clouds (rain on Monday?) over Mount Tamalpais but mostly blue sky and bright sunshine. Cool salt spray from the icy cold ocean. ''Another perfect day in paradise,'' as us smug San Franciscans say to each other in self-congratulatory tones.

Thanks Francesca, Mark, Joe, Chuck and Andy for a wonderful day.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:47:14 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Sorry I missed it
Message:
Next time....
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 07:07:02 (EST)
From: Auntie Eureeka
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Counter-cult spies gather secretly in SF
Message:
We know what you evil Bay Area Ex'ers are up too! By the generosity of my sister, we engaged a private detective to follow you people around with long range telephoto cameras. Really, how naive do you think we, who are devoted to my sister's Lord, who is not a lord, are?
Thank god International Conference Management Services has department staff for just these occasions.

Did you think we were put off the trail with the fake order of Kung Pow Chicken? Hummmmm? And really Pat, stepping on that poor nun's foot.....She was wired and we heard every hateful thing you ex'es had to say about my sister's Lord, who is not a lord.

So just remember, the next time you think you can gather incognito, we'll be watching you. Who do you think inspired Sting to write that song?

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 07:39:10 (EST)
From: Auntie Eureeka
Email: None
To: Auntie Eureeka
Subject: Just so you know
Message:
You just better watch your backs or Sister will crack you with her ruler. Sister has a fond spot for Maharaji, he went to St. Joseph's Academy, donchyaknow? He might have been a good, Catholic boy if it wasn't for those parents of his.
[ Nun ]
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 06:01:02 (EST)
From: Suchabanana
Email: banana@eye_spy.com/mies
To: PatC
Subject: r.e. spies: Ashcroft smear:Wash. Post
Message:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5982-2001Dec6.html
[ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A5982-2001Dec6.html ]
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:19:04 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You are welcome and thanks ...
Message:
... for providing the space. Several good belly laughs today about old times in the ashram with Joe. If you think this Forum gets wierd ...

At the end of the day, it's the people, and many exes and people that are premies that we have known and loved, and remember fondly.

love,

F

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 21:16:24 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Space Bitches and Krishna Crowns...
Message:
HumphHumph...HehEhEhEHe..HAhahahah....Wawawlllllll!!! LOLOLOL!

My biggest laugh was when we were talking about Chuck's doggy darshan website. Joe asked where we had gotten all those little Krishna crowns from. Chuck explained that it was only a pic of a crown pasted onto the doggy pics but I suddenly had a hilarious picture in my mind of Joe thinking that perhaps we had sat around painstakingly making little papier mache crowns for the Spice Bitches.

Don't feel bad, Joe, I thought they sat around painstakingly posing the doggie darshan brood too. And now I'm howlin'.

You all made my night! So glad you had a good time....Gossip, please!

''You know my name.....hehehe....look up my number''

That's the song on the reverse side of ''Don't Worry Kyoko.''

Long story....

Love,
C

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 06:59:47 (EST)
From: Question re:
Email: None
To: All
Subject: M's Golden Form
Message:
I never was able to see that aspect, yet everyone seemed to agree that he glowed. I just kept my mouth shut and tried to ignore my thoughts that he seemed physically ugly even when he was still Superboy.

Did anyone ever see him as Golden?

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:59:15 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Question re:
Subject: It was all in the lighting [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 23:22:06 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Question re:
Subject: He must have rubbed on Golden sheen
Message:
prior to Darshan or festivals.

Mostly, I think he sweated a lot and a lot of attention was paid to the lighting. But who knows....maybe he rubbed on Golden tan prior to festivals.

I saw him a couple times not at festivals and he didn't 'glow' off stage.

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 07:48:31 (EST)
From: he he he
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: He must have rubbed on Golden sheen
Message:
Remember that festival in Wembly, must have been in the late seventies, when he sweated so much that he left a massive sweat mark on the red stain throne thang and the premies all took photos of it and swooned because it was vaguely like the shape of a heart? Gawwd... the insanity of it all.
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:20:12 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Question re:
Subject: Nope
Message:
But he did shine. That's because he had golden oily skin.
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:06:42 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Question re:
Subject: Re: M's Golden Form
Message:
No i never saw that he glowed

allways fellt he was a litlle to ugly ,,, sorry
also
i never felt to the floor in darshan

like most premies was doing , way back

do you remember the huge rooms , we made for people , where they could lay down after Darshan.
once i saw that i almost was the only one standing on my feets
after darshan ,,,? at that time i felt ashamed

now it feels great.

But i sometimes saw the premies glowed
shinning like saints

that was really something, for me

allways was thinking , that someday i myself will be shinning
dont think that i ever really did ...

best Ulf ( the lost soul )

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:51:24 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Question re:
Subject: Re: M's Golden Form
Message:
A friend I introduced to knowledge, received the techniques a few years ago at the Oakland program. She practiced faithfully, went to events in Long Beach, had her own subscription and traveled a lot. She never bought into the group premie thing, but she thoroughly enjoyed the big events.

After this past big Amaroo hoedown, she said that was it for her.
He sounded incoherent on the tapes and had noticed over the previous year his aura had totally changed on the videos. She said she didn't know what happened, but he wasn't the same anymore. Whatever was there, wasn't.

This lady is quite astonishing as she can read things off of photographs and aura's. I never gave it much thought but tested it
a few times and she was dead on, including illnesses.

I never told her a thing. She came to these conclusions on her own.
I told her I had bad news but she was free to make up her own mind, revealing all the EPO details. Her face just continued to fall. Basically all she could say was Maharaji would have to face the truth eventually.

She called me the other day asking if anyone wanted her rather large video and picture collection.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:37:19 (EST)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: we want all
Message:
we want the videos and photos, right CQ?
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:33:09 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Question re:
Subject: Re: M's Golden Form
Message:
My mum,(never a premie and quietly cynical but also a bit psychic I think) taken to a programme in the early eighties, said he had an amazing , huge yellow aura. I used to see him as very bright when I really concentrated but I also experienced this with some pretty mundane people when I stared at them.

Peg

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:41:48 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Peg!
Message:
I have e mailed you. Have a look.
Love Mags
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:20:14 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Question re:
Subject: Occasionally
Message:
But most of the time my mind prevented me from seeing his true golden divine shining form:-)

John.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 13:12:19 (EST)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Question re:
Subject: Re: M's Golden Form
Message:
Yes, I did. I was in a big group of premies as we lined the exit from customs at Heathrow in 1973 before Guru Puja at Ally Pally. He walked through the passage to his car lined with premies sitting down on either side and he was golden. I gasped at the sight. Following him back to Woodside Avenue waiting in the garden in case he should appear and he finally stuck his head out of the window and he was not golden. I gasped again. I still wonder about it.
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 07:57:08 (EST)
From: and the sun
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: shines out of his ...
Message:
Just flicked through a women's mag and noticed that a lot of the stars are golden. Also just walked down the street and noticed a few golden shining people. Light, skin tone, sweat, star aura etc.

Wasn't there meant to be a thousand suns inside his mouth or something? Seem to remember some Krishna rip-off about his body containing the universe so of course he glowed. Sort of cosmic Tardis effect.

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 04:16:18 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: i was closer than you were, there
Message:
I was on the plane that brought him over from new york that day, and I had never met him in person until that flight. I had no idea where we were supposed to go once the plane landed at heathrow, so I stepped out of the river of passengers as they/we were all leaving the plane and waited inside of the debarking tunnel for him to emerge from first class, figuring he would know where we were supposed to go.
i got my wish.
as he came out of the plane,and came walking in my dierection, he glanced at me there against the tunnel wall and i fell in step with him without my intending to. it was like he yanked my feet out and ordered them to follow his and I had no power to do otherwise.
I followed him, inches behind him, all the way thru the tunnele moving belt, the customs desks, down the escalator and into baggage claim. he led us. wouldnt release us until he was satisfied that the last stragglers had been rounded up and brought down to the collecing area--meaning, the crowds where you were.

so he personally made sure he brought every last premie in the airport at that time, with him, to the meeting point, before he bustled thru the crowd and got in the waiting car and was driven off.
and this was my first encounter with him, my first darshan. i never had another moment like that, tho i made an ass of myself to him, audibly and visibly couple of times over the years with the rest of you watching me and hearing me.

if you were out at cuffley campsite that week, late one clammy, chilly night in the field, when the mahatmas were giving their droning satsang on the little stage, and MJ and RJ came out of the motorhome for a few minutes, off to the left side, you may remember how everyone crept and scurried over there for a few moments of their presence, like frogs crawling cross the grass, up to the fence.
you may recall Mj smirking and saying 'what are you all doing, here?' from the doorstep, and one voice answering back 'there was nothing better to do!!!!'

that was me.

of course, he zeroed in on me and made me feel like a fool. you can't win when facing off with him. it's a stacked game. he's brilliant, you're dumb. he's right, youre wrong. he wins, you lose.

as to being 'golden'?
his mother was from nepal, and i think her family lines run back into china and tibet and mongolia. so golden or yellow, you be the judge.

so--were you out at cuffley, too? tending the kitchen fires in the damp nights? i was. maybe we met over the lentil pots?

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 11:06:24 (EST)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: i was closer than you were, there
Message:
Typed for the second time!!!!!! (FA take note hotboards still sucks)
No, I was safe and snug in my bed in London. I don't particularly like camp sites (though I like camping) and avoided a few DLM disaster sites Copenhagen (where it never stopped raining), Kissimmee (what was going on there?) by making prudent hotel arrangements. I didn't think I was missing anything - sex drugs and rock and roll were never my strong points. I did enjoy the indoor camping at Essen (I think it was there). Maybe it was the 6 o' clock 'Jai sat chit anand' followed by the wake up song - a sort of gentle premie concentration camp feeling.
No you never saw me among the pots at Cuffley. I avoided those selfless hours of service hidden away somewhere - I seemed to have been through that somewhere else in my life. I also avoided the ashram after a three week 'introductory stay' at Leicester. The conscious and unconscious sadism in the background was not nice.
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 14:02:06 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: M's Golden Appearance
Message:
When he arrived at Heathrow he was the focus of an adoring crowd. Whenever I gave satsang I would glow. People told me I looked radiant. I sucked up the attention like a sponge.

By the time he got to the house, he was no longer the center of attention. His entourage got busy cooking etc. I have watched him arrive on stage looking like he had a hangover and slowly get high till he shone because of the love pouring towards him from the audience.

I have started giving satsang with a hangover and feeling like death warmed up only to be transformed by the attention of the audience. It still happens. I can go to work feeling poopy and a few minutes of talking to customers can be glowing again.

Everyone blossoms when the center of attention.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:37:56 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@Livy.org/y
To: PatC
Subject: speaking of sponges
Message:
-- what's Raja ji doing these days?

Haec spongia melior fuit. [This sponge has seen better days]

Estne ventilum hic? [Is there a fan in here?]

Suntne in fuste spongiae castae?! [Aren't there any Clean sponge sticks?!]

LOL

pax et lenticulae,

Bananus Maximus

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 17:52:49 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: What the Hell are sponge sticks?
Message:
Hi Such,

I love Latin. I took a few courses and found that I can still almost read it but the best surprise is how helpful it is when trying to figure out the meaning of an English word.

But, what the fuck are sponge sticks?

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:20:11 (EST)
From: Suchus Bananus Maximus
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Ad latrinas publicas...
Message:
Cynthia,

some hints:

Cassius: Si essem tu, non illic graderer. [I wouldn't step over there if I were you.}

Marcellus: Da mihi spongiam in fuste, sis. [Pass the sponge on a stick please.]

Primum deterge eam! [Wipe it first!]

Cassius: Ubi aqua mutata est? [When was the water last changed?]

Marcellus: Non puto te debere edisse uvas illas omnes! [I don't think you should have eaten all those grapes!]

Cassius: Numquam antehac sexaginta sellas vidi! Ipse duas sellas malo. [I've never seen a 60-seater before! I prefer the 2-seaters myself.]

Gaius: Erunt decem milia animalium in arena hodie.
[There are going to be 10,000 animals in the arena today.]

Marcus: Scibasne sanguinem calidum gladiatoris interfecti morbum comitialem sanare posse? [Did you know the warm blood of a gladiator will cure epilepsy?]

Catullus: Fue! Odor horribilis! Orgia bona hic in his septem diebus? [Pooh! What a stink! Any good orgies here this week?]

Cassius: Gratias pro sermone. Videam te mox! [Thanks for the chat. See you again, soon! ]

Pax et lenticulae,

Suchus Bananus Maximus

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 20:39:20 (EST)
From: Forestus Gumpus
Email: None
To: Suchus Bananus Maximus
Subject: Stultus est sicut stultus facit. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 03:07:05 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Suchus Bananus Maximus
Subject: Veni, Vidi, Vici, Spendi...
Message:
I came, I saw, I conquered, I spent... o: o:

O Mores, O Tables...

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 03:08:52 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Et Cum Spiri Tu Tuo
Message:
The Pope's telephone number... +)
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:05:25 (EST)
From: Deborahamus
Email: None
To: Suchus Bananus Maximus
Subject: Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione ~)
Message:
I'm not interested in your dopey religious cult. ~)
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 03:18:14 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Deborahamus
Subject: Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa...
Message:
Words we'd like to hear Maharaji say... }(
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 12:10:37 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Adda Canna Panna Sanna
Message:
I learnt my latin on teevee from Moeus Howardicus.
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 13:45:31 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Is that Moeus Howardicus
Message:
of Stoogeus Tertius fame?

And we musn't forget this dittius:

Latin is a language
As dead as dead can be
First it killed the Romans
And now it's killing me...

Barbara (Latin for stranger) }(

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 13:54:39 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Gabrobocchia !!
Message:
For those who think Latin is nonsense -- some *real* nonsense in Latin!
[ Jabberwocky! -- in Latin ]
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 19:30:12 (EST)
From: suchus bananus
Email: banana@Gracchi.rom
To: JohnT
Subject: hahahahahahaha! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 13:19:37 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: suchus bananus
Subject: Re: hahahahahahaha!
Message:
that site has the news in Latin!

DE BELLO AFGANISTANICO
'Maiore parte Afganistaniae iam pacata bellum in regione urbis Kandahar continuatur. Vulgo putantur et Muhammed Omar et socii peregrini Talibanorum usque ad mortem pugnaturi esse. Colin Powell, minister a rebus exteris Americanorum, censet in quaestione nihil esse nisi tempus, quo Osama bin Laden deprehendatur et Taliban corruat'.

http://www.yle.fi/fbc/latini/trans.html

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:05:03 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Suchus Bananus Maximus
Subject: So..now you're Suchus Bananus MAXIMUS???LOL! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 05:41:51 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@LOL.org/y
To: Cynthia
Subject: hey, if you got dat schwing
Message:
- flaunt it! LOL - fer cryin out Lard!

Pax et lenticulae,

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:03:15 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Suchus Bananus Maximus
Subject: Sona si Latine loqueris
Message:
Honk if you speak Latin. :)
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 07:58:02 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: E Plurabus Unam
Message:
Shhh, don't let anyone know!
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_mott.htm
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 04:24:49 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: does it matter whether it's...
Message:
medical latin, legal latin, scientific latin, or literary latin??

i seem to gravitate to the medical/ scientific, by nature. i really should take up the formal classes.

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 06:12:06 (EST)
From: suchus bananus
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I dig Latin chicks
Message:
Veni et vide picturas meas. [Come up and see my frescos]

Nonne quisquis hic Latine decenter loquitur?
[Doesn't anyone speak proper Latin around here?]

not to worry -- this is not a new [or ancient] Eastern mystical cult with synchronized political correctness.

Merry Mithrasmas!

Pax et lenticulae,

Suchus Bananus Maximus [ROFL]

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 12:41:19 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Question re:
Subject: Re: M's Golden Form
Message:
The first time I saw him up close I turned the corner in wembly arena and saw him. He was totally golden. I was blown away with it all. I had holy breath and was stunned. The second and last time I saw him up close absolutely nothing. No bliss no golden light. I don't know why to this day. Maybe it was stage lighting.
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 07:33:31 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Question re:
Subject: yes i did...
Message:
golden .. but also a speckled toad close up.

i think the faces of the high status and confident do have a 'charisma' - I regret to say that I still see it in his face now. Please dont hit me.

It is easy to fake that deep inner calm.. its really all about what you give yourself permission to be.. and it IS FOR OTHERS.

Its a performance. His arrogance is something he permits, because it reminds him of who he is in relation to us...

as for the glow... I couldnt read a book by him - but he was uglier close up....

except in darshan when he was in an unassailable position.

what often amazed me was how shocked I would be to see him... and I think the reason is cos I had spent ages thinking about him, and looking at his 2D pictures that when he finally was there.. I was knocked off my feet. The shock of the reality of him ripped me wide open .. and I could project any amount of wishfuul thinking into the space between my 'image' of him and the confident 3d realit... cos in darshan he had no behaviour.

Without the personality.. we could all be Gods for each other... but M stressed would be a different kettle of fish.

So yes.. I saw him moonfaced and divine... I drowned in his glance.. I felt time stop and the air be thick with light... I felt my childhood and my past made whole.. In the face of such certainty, I forgot and found my self, and was more than happy to bow my head and offer everything I was...

Time indeed seemed to bow before him....

I can get drunk on the memory of it still... and yet I am under no illusion.

At my Instructor Training thingy in the late 80s which was a week long, I was disappointed to find that I didnt have any darshan feeling standing next to him.

Its all in the eye of the beholder...

I asked him a question once...and he told me exactly what I wanted to hear.

ME 'Maharaji.. thankyou for this precious opportunity, it means so much to me that you accept me the way I am, but it would mean a lot to me if you would tell me that you love me'

He laughed and said : 'Of course you are loved....... and of course you are accepted just the way you are.... there isnt any other kind of love is there ?'

what a brilliant answer. IF he had had to live with me.. it wouldnt have been as easy to say... or as true... but idealised relationships produce incredible virtual feelings... and so, yes.. he was golden for a while for me.

Golden and precious.

Do I miss him ? No. I still have my feelings. Is he relevant to my life now ? No.

Is MY PAST relevant to my life... Oh Yes. I am very probably stuck in it.
He burned his way deep into my psyche...there is an impression of his face somewhere deep there...and it makes it hard to move on.

I was lost in love you see...totally lost.... and no matter who you do that with.. you cant forget. But the feelings are mine and I love them and I am so glad that they are NOT dependant on him being around.. in fact.. they had precious little to do with him in the first place...

He was a willing projectionist... but the dreams and the love was mine.

if anybody wants to give me a hard time over this horrifyingly self-indulgent post, please be gentle... its therapy, and its free !

Loafie

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:39:16 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: yes i did...
Message:
Hey loaf.. wouldn't it be fantastic to be in love with someone real like that? do you think it's possible?

Peg

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 19:03:00 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: an idea(L)ove
Message:
Peg I have written an impulsive and honest response to this one... which starts off quite civilly... but during the writing of it i got angry.

i have attached it below intact... dont read it if you dont want to.. but rightly or wrongly I have taken offense at your question.

........

peg, you asked 'Hey loaf.. wouldn't it be fantastic to be in love with someone real like that? do you think it's possible?'

falling from such a great height was devastating...

I have never done a parachute jump.. but I have left a cult.

It took me a long time to come to terms with having any feelings apart from gratitude, bliss, happiness etc...

It took me a long time to realise that what I had loved was an illusion

It took me a long time to forgive myself for not feeling perfect

It took me a long time to embrace the normal and the trivial and the mundane, and for those things to be precious... as precious as the parachute I am held up by.

I am still coming in to land... but its scary and I am dangling at about 8,000 feet... you dont meet many people up here... and those that you do tend to go past quickly.

My falling in love experience with mortals in the past 5 years has been very much...

a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
a
g
h

SPLAT

In fact after my first 'head over heels' schoolboy crush at the age of 32.. only then did I realise that I had never really been in love - the years up to 18 were spent trying to come to terms with boys and my willy... from 18 - 31 I was wrapped up in the bubble of K... there were occaisional lusty moments.. but how could any mortal compete with my devotion to Maharaji... they didnt stand a chance... some of them smoke and drink for heavens sake !

No.. M was above all that.. serene, glowing, idealised.

I was trapped in a teenage fantasy... but taken very deep - and coming out of it wasnt easy.

I eventually fell in love with a younger lad, but he was unfortunately losing the struggle to free himself from heterosexuality, even though he was as besotted with me as i was with him for a while..

when we parted company I was genuinely berieved. I lost weight and i genuinely thought I was dying for a while... the idea that someone could actually love ME as much as I loved him was a totally new one.. and in the newness of that idea I realised how isolated and cold and repressed and alone I was, and that Maharaji had never loved me at all.

I couldnt until recently bear the thought of being rejected again like that..(not by M but by my boy), so once again i hide away and for a while replaced love with sex, was entertaining witty, defensive...

now I want to be loved for real. More than anything.... DO I THINK ITS POSSIBLE ?.. RIGHT NOW, FOR ME I DONT KNOW. Thanks for asking.

Yes it would be fantastic peg. But either you havnt read my recent posts about my loneliness, or you are too FUCKING insensitive to care, but to ask smart arsed shitty rhetorical questions to prove how clever you are just rubs salt into a wound.

Of course it would be fabulous.. now why dont you FUCK OFF and rattle somebody elses cage.

Are you happily married ?

Loaf ( sore point).

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 13:11:09 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: PEGS....Sorry
Message:
I wrote the post above.. and looking at it now, the next day, am sorry to have been so rude.. its clearthat I got the wrong end of the stick.

Pls forgive.. it wasnt personal... and in my defense I should like to say that I have a cold and am giddy on lemsips.

I took what you said far too personally... it is now, an interesting question to me, whereas yesterday it sounded a bit mocking.. which i am sure you never meant. I have posting frenzies.. and then realise that I am posting myself into a corner... intoxicated with the sound of my own typing.. aaaargh its the curse of the satsang chair !!!

Big hug and thanks (in advance)

Loaf

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 17:53:25 (EST)
From: peg
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Loaf! I'M sorry
Message:
Yes I did read your post on loneliness... I read all your posts whenever I read the forum. I think you are clever, sensitive and honest. I wanted to have a conversation with you about something I am really wondering about. How old am I??? (51) I was also a bit pissed and, when I read your response this morning (just before going out.. no time to reply) I thought I had been insensitive. You're right about the stick though, but should I have been waving it about like that?

Yes I am married . Not lost in love, but sometimes happy.

Thanks for making this reply so much easier by your last message. Was that flaming? If so you were the first. Maybe I'll meet you soon, hope so.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 02:25:34 (EST)
From: Loafie
Email: None
To: peg
Subject: thankyou Pegs, very much [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:07:31 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: peg
Subject: Re: Loaf! I'M sorry
Message:
Peg have you looked in your e mails? The dates I told you are not happening now, but we are trying to sort something out. We are very difficult to co-ordinate but tend to get there in the end.
Hope all is well Mags
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:08:11 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Re: Loaf! I'M sorry
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:12:38 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: post above not what it says in title sorry nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 14:32:44 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: yes i did...
Message:
I thought he was beautiful from afar. When I was up close, he wasn't so ''golden and shining.'' He was quite plain, tired, and his bare feet were ugly.

I don't beat myself up for worshipping him. I don't blame myself for getting involved with him either.

I was conned. You wrote a great post, Loaf. Yes, from afar golden, close up, ugly, rude, introverted (fake humbleness), and eyes bloodshot.

In those days, those...I just put that part out of my mind. I could never have said this 20 years ago.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 10:04:28 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: yes i did...
Message:
Hey I love this post.
very well said Loaf Ji
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 14:34:33 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bill.....(OT)
Message:
Are you going to email me? Is your email address wrong?

Whassup?

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 02:09:30 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Bill.....(OT)
Message:
I cant access my email again.
That makes 2 gone now,
I will make another couple.
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 10:58:28 (EST)
From: loaf
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: thankyou William. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 08:05:57 (EST)
From: Thanks
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: His reply to you worth noting
Message:
Hi,

No right or wrong answers here. I did find it interesting that when you asked him to tell you he loves you, he couldn't say 'yes, I do love you'..he said of course you are loved and allowed you to fill in the blank

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 08:13:39 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Thanks
Subject: Re: His reply to you worth noting
Message:
Oh... absolutely... He skillfully creates a space which is filled by implication.. this is how we create him out of our hopes.

For eg, talking about love in such impersonal terms implies that the love is beyond the usual, hard fought personal, toothpaste cap left off forgiving love... just as talking about 'this Life' implies a perspective which is equally vacuuous.

Human nature, abhoring a vacuum, rushes to fill the void with wish fulfillment.. and that vaguest of all traps... feelings.

Thanks thanks.

Loaf

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 14:10:08 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: That was very lovey dovey, Loaf
Message:
and I will confess, straight up how much I enjoyed reading it, and the value therein. I even freaked out when you talked about his face being burned indelibly into us, because we loved him that much, arrrggghhhhh - the speckled toad with the golden aura, baggage for life - again, arrrrggggghhhhhhhh, gurgle, freak!

No, absolutely, there is a huge benefit in facing all this, thanks for helping, but I shall just settle my stomach with a little dose of the other side of the coin. Hate. If we loved him so much, don't we hate him that much for fooling us. If we love ourselves so much for having those feelings, don't we hate ourselves that much for being conned.

I call this open heart surgery, I can't get away from the analogy, but sorting it out, sorting out the fact from fiction is proving to be the sane and healthy way out of the dilemma.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 15:16:48 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Re: That was very lovey dovey, Loaf
Message:
because what I loved wasnt really him... I dont see him as an issue in all this.. i couldnt give a flying fuck about him nowadays... I cant even hate him cos he didnt even fool me - you see I think it was as much peer pressure as it was him being a twat.

I dont even want to dignify him with any of the qualities I saw... he was a mirror set behind a veil set behind an altar.. and what I eventually found when i got there was ALL ABOUT ME and very little to do with him.

Thats the illusion.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 21:08:40 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Yes, I agree with what you say, so
Message:
in genuine interest may I ask how you reconcile that irrelevance, and boy do I agree with you about not dignifying him, btw, with your rather resonant sentence:
'He burned his way deep into my psyche, there is an impression of his face somewhere deep there, and it makes it hard to move on' ?

I was so surprised to see how my interest in Maharaji evaporated so quickly, one visit to see for myself, and then zero interest in seeing him, just antipathy at the idea. It bothered me, I confess, it seemed so strange after 27 years, and also, it is somewhat intriguing.

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 02:35:21 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Re: Yes, I agree with what you say, so
Message:
I rhink it is basically because

1. when I said 'his face' I am talking figuratively.. and more about the feeling,about my impression of his face. I am NOT STUCK on him.. but stuck in a state where my MEMORY of love is for an idol.
2. I like the idea of having had a guru - even a toy one.
3. Darshan (at its best) was entirely subjective
4. I never really knew him. nor do I like him, he was a figment, a construct and a projection...
5. I have in my post K learning about counselling days done workshop after workshop creating collages of images - he is just one of those..
6. Be reassured.. it is not his face that was attractive, but the EMOTIONAL (not the mental !) space I was in....I was drunk on my own feelings. Reality never got a look in.

I am addicted to love.
7. erm.... was there a seven ?
8. there is no 7th point.

Wheres that cold turkey ?...

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 15:07:48 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Cold Turkey
Message:
Um, yes, I think a lot of the reason is that he was just playing a game with us, that the relationship was not based in reality, but also I am beginning to wonder whether there isn't another element in it. Sorta like going cold turkey on a devotional relationship, a protective mechanism clicks in for a while, an emotional plastercast that keeps you up and walking whilst you heal and gather strength. At the point when I connected the dots and said to myself, 'so he is a fraud', I turned from the computer screen and looked at a photograph, I thought to myself, 'does this mean that all the love I have felt will turn to hate', the anger that was boiling up in me was lethal, I decided to step back from feeling it, and give myself time. Now, increasingly I am finding I am much more relaxed about it and can accept my feelings. He played me for a sucker, relentlessly, callously, I am very angry about that, of course I am, and I am okay with that, happy even,...life is not yet over for this lil black duck.
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 02:22:36 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Anger, desire.. atttachments..
Message:
hello lesley

I havnt really got a generalised anger about all this.. but I do get angry about specific things.. or what happened to other people.. I went through a very angry anti-m phase in the late 90s.. but I think it was me being a rebellious teenager and healthily countering my yrs of debotion with a good hard rant.

I think it was when I started to reclaim my feelings, and my ANGER, that I found him quietly oppressive .

I actually needed to reclaim permission for myself to be angry, irritated, hurt.... but I am sure I have a long way to go.

The last time I saw him (Harrogate 2000) I wasnt angry with him at all.. I actually thought him very skillful and admired his use of his voice and his message to 'charm' (I wrote a post about it on here).

I feel it is very important for all the shades of ex to post here - not just the extreme CULT hating mentality, but also the ones who have been in touch with him recently, so that exiting can perhaps be a gentler and more natural organic process rather than a huge ideoological leap.

M teaches and talks so much about being true to the heart... and yet the heart does not always tell the truth.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 14:19:01 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Being true to a misinformed heart
Message:
Yes, a real shocker from the premie angle of thinking. My heart can get it wrong?......oh yes. That's why you need to think about what you are feeling.

I understand what you mean about generalised anger. That first time I felt it, that is what I would say it was, that's why it was too much to feel, everything I was angry about all at once, eeeekkkk!

Once I stepped back, I started the process of sorting out the specifics, what exactly I was angry about, with whom. Breaking the lump up, as it were, worked well for me.

The last time I saw him (amaroo 2000), I watched him being charming, but I did not admire him for it, I was looking for some sign that he actually cared about the people he was inflicting his charm on, whether he had any sense of social responsibility, but it was business as usual. That made me feel angry, lol.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 17:54:23 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Brilliant words, Loafie...NT
Message:
You're a sweetie...:):):)
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 05:51:26 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Is this useful?
Message:
Foundation Center
1001 Connecticut Avenue NW
Suite 938
Washington, DC 20036
Telephone 202-331-1400
Makes available Internal Revenue Service returns for non-profit
corporations and much information on corporate
philanthropy (both U.S. and international).
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 01:53:23 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Just checked their website
Message:
I don't think so. I've linked to their website so you can search on it too.

Also http://www.guidestar.org
has 990 forms on their website, but because Elan Vital is a church, they don't have to file them. They got a church exemption in 1971 under their former name, Divine Light Mission. However, in 1971 they were telling everyone he was Balyogeswar Shri Sant Ji Maharaji, the Perfect Master, here to bring light to the world.

Lots of laughs and a few thousand bottles of cognac later, hic, I'm the only teacher who deals with the breath! Hmm, rocket science has changed since I went to college ...

Never doubt the purity of the Master. 100 proof. Honest.

Love,

Francesca
PS Hope you're feeling better -- we missed you today! Maybe next time.
[ Foundation Center ]

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 06:58:14 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Fran and Joe
Message:
Glad a good time was had by all. Definitely another gathering must be penciled in the Hateful Ex'es Social Calendar of Events!

Thought I was getting better, but just as the doc said it would, the cough stays on after the fever and is obnoxious and persistent and wrecks havoc with my old bones. I looked in the mirror and actually scared myself! Hauled myself into the shower and drained the hotwater heater. Asked my kids why they didn't tell me how frightful I looked....They didn't want to hurt my feelings!

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 13:58:17 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Your kids are sweet!
Message:
Dear Vicki,

Get well! This last 'gathering' was impromptu. I'm sure there will be one in the future with a lot of warning and comparing of schedules. That's what we did last time when we had a good-sized group. Right now, everyone's into winter colds or the holidaze!

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 20:27:13 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Hi Vicki
Message:
I wonder if your ears were burning around lunch time today. A few of us gathered and spoke very fondly of you. Hope you are feeling well.

Joe

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 05:20:43 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Lord of the Universe
Message:
Jims lovely thought provoking post below, provoked a thought.

NB :There is a danger that any rationalisation or 'understanding' of Maharaji, or enjoyment of Knowledge could be viewed as CULT BEHAVIOUR - well I still want to raise a question....so, stick with me folks.. there is a journey in this post...

Jim says 'M said he was Lord of the Universe and he wasnt'

I am not arguing the theology of that question, nor am I defending M's statements.. but lets at least see whats behind it before I get pelted with ideological brick-bats. (? eh ?)

These are just reflections and thoughts....but
I want to ask a question... what makes ian warburton an average mortal middle class white english male ?

well I was told (and it was legally agreed before I had any choice) that I would be Ian Warburton. Everybody agreed that I was Ian warburton, nobody contradicted me when i asserted that my name was ian warburton.

My expectations of life ? Similarly negotiated with my friends, parents, teachers, advertisers...

My self esteem... also affected by what i have been led to believe since I was a little child... for good OR bad

Does The Queen doubt that she is really the Queen ?? I dont think so.. although she may wish to give it up or recoil from the challenge.. it is not an option available to me, although I am suited for the role in some ways.

Now M always talked about Guru maharaji in the third person... he did not often publicly show the extent of his mania or his identification with the role.. but when he did.. it was usually greeted with delight.. it still is today.

So when you are raised to believe that you are LOTU, surrounded by people who want you to be LOTU (even though in the wonderful words of Malcolm Livingstone.. 'I wouldnt recognise the Lord of the Universe if he trod on my head !')...

but we liked the IDEA of it. just as all those nice Germans liked the IDEA of the Fuerer (spelling anyone ?)or we like the IDEA of America.

We wanted him to be LOTU - possibly as much if as he did.. no wonder he went mad.

The Indian background of paramahansic yoganandering does make over-statement rather easy.. and the IDEA of M being the superior Power in person bought me a lot of security.. cos it made me feel like I was in safe hands.

Ha... more fool me.. but I wouldnt be the first person to have a romantic view of an idol.. we live in dreams and our notions of self are projected onto us and bought into.

So... I want (probably like many others) to blur the definition in these matters of what is right and wrong - cos the constant definition of M as a fake still does not negate My experience, which was manipulated and contrived, but I was very happy with it.

I seriously feel that the entire community IHQ festival 70s madness social pyramid of flowers, mala wearing big tie ashram, guilt and insanty crowned decade produced some very strange phenomena.... and the fat bastard was certainly one of its more 'rotten' fruits

The late 80s and 90s were a different kettle of fish... and I got K in 82 and missed out on some of the worst madnesses... but out of that madness emerged the APPEARANCE of a sane and reasonable teacher... (I have to emphasise Appearance, cos people will start shouting at me for being a CULT Apologist - but mainly because it is extremely subjective.. M appeared tome to be the sanest man on the planet.)

I had bought into his view of himself...

Those of you who think that this meglomania is his fault have perhaps never spent any time round the seriously immature and famous...

'power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'

So what is the point of all this.... well I bought into it.. and I loved it. I have outgrown it, by the grace of all things wonderful...BUT I was very lucky. I NEVER TRULY Experienced the insanity and the horror of trying to please him.. I NEVER got burned out trying to maintain my place in the slippery pyramid of favour.. I DIDNT get robbed of my childhood like Abi , or my Future like those who surrendered their inheritances, houses and families.. is their story a different one from mine ?.. YES

Which is true ?

BOTH.

Its showbiz... and the fact that I enjoyed 'Gone with the Wind' is not diminished by learning that all the camera men were under-paid or that vivien leigh was prone to tantrums... BUT it is changed....once you have seen behind the scenes, you will never watch the movie in the same way again.

Actors dont enjoy plays the way the public do... and as we expose the frail fucked-up human behind the golden mask, we put ourselves in the picture.

The deception here is that Maharaji's showbiz pretended to be REALITY... and he even believed it himself ... and that nobody can ever look at the origins and psychological foundation of Knowledge, Darshan, bliss, Devotion and The Master.

Their mistake in keeping it all 'unquestionably divine' and mysterious is to force people who do question it, to also question his motives for secrecy.

And my suspicion is that Maharaji hates to be examined.

What i want to do is to keep hold of the good stuff.. and to be questioning, awake and independant in thought. The more i do this, the more I see him manipulating people, but that is nothing new...

And for those who are wavering.... there IS truth and integrity in your love for M and your joy, but there is also the entire questioning perspective of coming to understand the forces that are at work in creating such a strange relationship with a stranger and how much good, and damage that can do.

Come out and play.. you can always go back in, but there does reach a point were their is more integrity in being out here than in there.

and Integrity and Intelligent questioning are so precious when you have given them away for soo long...

welcome home.

Loafie
ex-Premie
x

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:57:04 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Excellent Insight's, Loafie
Message:
and quite thought provoking too. A another great example here of your intelligent and articulate examination of the cult experience loaf.

This is the stuff that keeps me coming back here for more, good work Loafie and Thank You.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:35:33 (EST)
From: Jean Valjean
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Lord of the Universe
Message:
THank you Loafie for your nice and friendly welcome. I do need it!

I just asked a premie friend of mine about all the secrecy which surrounds all the activities of Maharaji and his followers. He did not answer my question. Iam very patient and i will wait for his answer (he's gone to Miami).

i quote your sentence then : 'Their mistake in keeping it all 'unquestionably divine' and mysterious is to force people who do question it, to also question his motives for secrecy.'

Perfectly true. I hope there are motives for secrecy - even the worst - and i think there is a big opportunity here to do service finding out what are these real motives for their absence would be very worrying for all my premie friends. I care for them.

Thank you again.

Jean

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 02:54:48 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Jean Valjean
Subject: Re: Lord of the Universe
Message:
Hello again jean, nice to see you.

When i was in Amaroo once there was some trouble with the local press, ('GURU IN THE BUSH' headlines) and having been a PR man and publicist had a meet with Bill Wishart and Sprice Drury (she lovely) and I suggested that the way forward was openness... perhaps to let a camera crew follow M for a year... oh how naieve I was !!

Bill basically said to me and Sprice, quite openly, that there were far too many skeletons and financial irregularities to allow that - Sprice agreed, and the subject was dropped.

A culture of secrecy and control does not bode well for the mental health of the man at the top. The pyramid of bodies that forms under him, and around the residences, is testemony to his lack of conciousness or caring for other people.

Knowledge is almost like hypnotism - he takes people out of their 'thinking' mode - and thinks he can do what he likes with them....but he is exposed as an alchoholic, immature and greedy little braggart.

well the sleepers are awakening Maharaji.

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 15:34:03 (EST)
From: Jean Valjean
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Lord of the Universe
Message:
I was there an i remember this article.
It is true that he does not care for you (remermber, you are loved. he did not say ?I love you?, just because he doesn?t) and me.
I distincly remember me walking to the satsang place, then someone rushing behind my back knocked me (i have to mention i was a very basic premie) because HE was walking by the same exact way, and i suppose all the space before him should be ?cleared?. I was very upset by the attitude of this security guy and also with Maharaji?s attitude who was obviously aware of this rudeness. he mentionned later something about the ?security sharks?...
I cannot make up my mind whether he controls his close followers or not. I think sometimes he is controlled by them but it is most likely both phenomenon taking place. he cannot live without all these zealots nor can they live without him.

A snake bites its own tail. One should?nt be in between. Dangerous.

To be completely honest, I also remember him driving through the land in a jeep with Marolyn on his side, all the premies around rushing to see him closely. I was quite far from this scene, higher on the hill and i did not move. He leaved the little crowd and drived in my direction, I said ?thank you? and - believe it or not - gave him a letter i had written the last night, full of pointless devotion.
We had not much to say to each other, and i was very sad about that. He did not say anything and drove by the residence entrance. I felt almost like inexistant in front of HIM, so great, powerfull, whealthy... Pointless.

I thought i all fucked it up. Thank you Lord.

Loaf, your posts are very meaningfull to me for i can relate to them as my experience was quite similar in many ways, i mean the way i looked at it. You put it quite clearly.

I am thinking on posting under my real name. I am in a kind of little investigation around questionning my old premie friends on the subject of secrecy. And i do not want them to be confronted with an ?ex-premie? (as i think as soon i will give my name, the all flock will be in full alert about me) for i do want to have genuine answers, if this can be.

See, i want to understand with no judgement.

Thank you my dear friend.

Jean

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 05:17:41 (EST)
From: loaf
Email: None
To: Jean Valjean
Subject: Re: Lord of the Universe
Message:
Thankyou jean... I think the danger (and conversely the treasure) of Knowledge is in the dis-location of feelings.. because it makes us vulnerable like little ducklings who will bond with whatever is put before them...

'wherever I look your face is before me'

To promote TRUST as a feeling... is dangerous.. it creates vulnerability. Trust needs to be earned, but the feeling of trust makes us feel secure, loved.. warm.

The feeling of love, needs to be earned... but as maharaji encourages it out of the very air... this means that we will need to find somewhere to place it...

so to give it back to the guy who 'summoned it' seems like a natural and perfect cycle.

ha ha... the gratitude trap again .

What I was thinking was that becoming an ex needs to be the FULFILLMENT of the journey as a Premie.. not a Cancellation... when i was an aspirant I was sincere... as a premie I was sincere too, but influenced... now I am questioning those influences and choosing them carefully.. but I am more sincere than ever... the journey contnues and it is beautiful.

Thankyou my friend for your kind words... its wonderful for each of us to remember that we are not alone.... we may have lost a 'master' but we have gained the whole of humanity.

Loafie

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 07:06:01 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Lord of the Universe
Message:
Hi Loaf,
You certainly come up with some interesting analogies
Its showbiz... and the fact that i enjoyed 'Gone with the Wind' is not diminished by learning that all the camera men were under-paid or that vivien leigh was prone to tantrums... BUT once you have seen behind the scenes, you will never watch the movie in the same way again. I love it, except that when we got into K we did not realise we were practising 'suspension of reality' as you do when you get into a good film.
As far as Lord of the Universe is concerned
IMHO He was brought up as a Guru and, like many who are brought up into a religion, believed everything his family and countless mahatmas, devotees and all those around told him. It would have been impossible for him not to fall in with the general view of life in the Ashram.
When his Father died he got hoisted up to take his place and was even more subject to being influenced by the history of guruship and his family/followers wishes. When he came to the West it just carried on with us lot as his supporters. He did tell us a load of phoney baloney but like you, I think he actually believed it.
I know there are some that say he was out to con us all for the rich rewards of fame and money but it doesn't ring true for me. I remember him as a 12 year old and he was just a kid who believed he was the Perfect Master in the same way I believed at that age I had a guardian angel and Holy Communiun was the body and blood of Christ.
When and if he stopped believing in Satguruship, the power of K etc. I don't know but I guess if he ever did wake up to the illusion of it all - as I did with Catholicism over many questioning years, it would be much harder for him to give up the life style and become an 'ordinary' human being. Not that there would be any other ethical course of action. Maybe he won't let himself think that thought as there is too much at stake.
I still remember the buzz at telling someone about Knowledge who was in the Doldrums and how it was the ultimate cure to all life's problems. If you got into the flow you could actually see the person start to brighten up with the hope of it, and as they started to go to satsang and get into the whole trip you felt that you had actually helped someone in the best possible way. Now imagine that feeling multiplied thousands of times and it must be something like M felt as the knowledge was spreading. It's not only the mansions, planes etc. but the power of being the bringer of bliss that he will have to give up. It's a bit like the film The Matrix - it takes a lot of courage to give up a wonderful fantasy life for a grim reality - but in the end it is better to try and build some joy from real foundations. It was hard for us ex-premies to do it and it would be close to impossible for M.

Despite this I agree with Jim's succint appraisal below
He is not the Lord of the Universe. He did claim he was. He no longer can even admit that. He's a fool at best, a snake at worst but, whatever he is, he is perhaps one of the very last people on earth qualified to advise anyone
BTW - Glad that Jim and Katie have resolved things to some extent. Since the earliest days of these forums they have both been stalwarts in debunking the hocum and helping the emerging doubtful premie.
cheers,
berni

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 13:18:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: The ex consensus
Message:
I know there are some that say he was out to con us all for the rich rewards of fame and money but it doesn't ring true for me. I remember him as a 12 year old and he was just a kid who believed he was the Perfect Master in the same way I believed at that age I had a guardian angel and Holy Communiun was the body and blood of Christ.

My guess is that the ex consensus is that Maharaji did indeed have a sincere period -- who knows how long? -- in which he believed his own bullshit, meant well, etc. That tree of good faith turned into petrified wood sometime in the early eighties, if not before. That's my belief but it's also what I'd wager most exes believe. At least the part about being sincere at the start but not any longer.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 13:50:56 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: The ex consensus
Message:
At least part of Rawat was imbued with his father's inspiration at first and he was floating on a cloud of hope and faith but now I see that deep down he was probably always more focussed on wealth than love. His mother thought that he lost his sincerity in 1974 and became corrupted.

It was probably a mixture of greed and superstitious respect for his father's agya that kept him going through the next ten years but after that period (spent in the US) there is simply no explanation for his behaviour other than selfishness.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 14:23:52 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: A Child in an Adult Bod...
Message:
Whether or not he was sincere as a child is immaterial, IMO because he was supposed to be above all that. Knowing now that he is a mere mortal, and less than that to boot, shows me that Maharaji learned early on in life how to use, abuse, and use and abuse again.

He never grew up. He is still a child and a narcissistic one at that. We can discuss reasons for m's behavior, but when the rubber hits the road, it's all inexcusable.

My 2 cents,
:)
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 08:05:33 (EST)
From: cynical
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: marketing strategy
Message:
Maybe it was a gimmick you know, selling the youngest Indian Guru to the West just when everyone in the 70s seemed to be fed up with the straight adult world. How could anyone question a child right? Appealed to all inner-child in all the lost young late teens early twenties seekers but also, oddly, even perversly, set up a child as the supreme father. A seductive mix. Can't think why else the youngest was 'chosen' really. Most malleable, most cute. Sort of freaky Micheal Jackson effect. Hey, wonder if Rawat has ever thought of cosmetic surgery?
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 18:29:36 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Your .02 is priceless, Cynthia
Message:
I mean it Cynthia, this is the most sensible answer in this post.

And I absolutely DO NOT believe we are responsible for projecting jack shit on him. Maha and Knowledge fit into what is called DECEPTIVE CULTS.

I'm linking a fantastic site that clearly addresses the tactics, not phenomena, of cults.

The article addresses the following:

What is a Cult?

Popular Perceptions

People who become cult members do not know that their recruiters have a hidden agenda.

The unsuspecting person is a prime target for cult recruiters

To blame the victims of successful cult recruiting strategies is an error.

The Media and Cults

Lifton's Eight Characteristics of Thought Reform
*Milieu Control
*Mystical Manipulation
*Demand for Purity
*Cult of Confession
*Sacred Science
*Loaded Language
*Doctrine over Person
*Dispensing of Existence
*Cognitive Dissonance

Conformity

Obedience

It's a good and easy read and will startle the shit out of you how you could not of noticed. But importantly, all these tricks work
synergetically. You will see how the recruits are first trained, than they the subsequently to the training on the new recruits.

Maha is quite aware of what he is doing. Mischler told Maha to come clean and Maha freaked-out knowing what he had to lose. Mischler discussed this w/Maha. Thus, their is no reason for endless speculation. Maha knew very well what he had to lose, made a wicked decision, than went for it. This is not the lost dreams of dooey-eyed youths projecting their dreams onto an unsuspecting guru. We were 'brainwashed' which is a colloquial term for thought reform. PERIOD.

Thank you for saying it the way it is, Cynthia. I find it so refreshing to hear people call a spade a spade.
[ Public Perceptions vs. Research ]

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 21:53:26 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Your .02 is priceless, Cynthia
Message:
Thanks, Deb...I needed that. I'm an avid reader of Rick Ross's site so thanks for the link...

...And when I call a spade a spade I am always referring to a deck of cards...

I don't really believe in astrology, but I am a double Scorpio and what you see is what you get with me. It's taken me a long time to love myself enough to know that and be healthy enough to say things in adult terms.

It's fun to get silly and I always love a good laugh...Patsy provided me a great one above...

'Dem guys...

Love,
Cynthia

Hey, email me sometime...or I will spam you....sylviecyn@yahoo.com...b)

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 22:00:48 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Your .02 is priceless, Cynthia
Message:
Not that I believe in astrology but I'm a triple Sag w/ 2 other planets in Sag. Saturn & Mercury.

I have 2 planets conjunct in Scorpio though: Venus and Neptune.

I'll email today, don't want to be spammed.

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 18:49:14 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Hey, Deborah!
Message:
I have scorpio rising and a sun/mars conjunction, and I'm trying very hard not to believe in this stuff!

John

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 20:14:56 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Hey, John!
Message:
Sun/Mars in scorpio? Also, trying hard not to believe this stuff. :)
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:58:41 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: No, in Cancer [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 07:43:35 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: i AGREE WITH JIM TOO
Message:
The evidence of M's delusion is mammoth...phenomenal even... I have just finished typing my post above where i talk myself into a satsang frenzy !

I am soo gullible sometimes .

L. (Oaf).

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 22:09:07 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Nothing against civility Pullaver
Message:
However, Pointing fingers at what doesn't work comes a dime a dozen.

I agree with everything you said. You have accurately pointed your finger at the problem, unfortunately the solution is a more abstract target.

I'm very busy now but will take the time to discuss this further, as I am solution oriented and would love to see problems avoided in the future. Thanks for taking the time to express yourself further, it's a trustworthy quality I appreciate.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 19:42:27 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: I agree with you Moley
Message:
I loved Nigel's response as well. The two of you have a real penchant for honesty. And honesty harbours dignity, and integrity. These are valuable aspects of humaness.

How can we please everyone. THe most benign remarks have been criticised on the forum. I posted some light-hearted remark two days complete with winking emoticon and got a fist full of repressed anger towards me, although it was my first time posting to that person. if that person had ever once come forward and said he disagreed with my adamant dislike towards Maha and his Knowledge bag'o'tricks, i could have avoided giving a personal post. Not only that, this person never responds the same way with other long timers. I hate that shit. I'd rather have overt disagreements. That stuff is not human respect. I don't need misplaced or mistimed anger. That, to me, is inappropriate.

Really appreciate yours and Nige's no-nonsense approach. Thank you for being here and being candid. I admire your realness

deb

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 19:58:59 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Moley reposting Nige
Subject: It's okay, I over-reacted
Message:
Please don't let this bother you Moley. How could you know that you just happened to be front and center for the 'straw that broke the camel's back' syndrome happened. Coincidentially, I just wrote a thread above that helps, I hope explain, where I am at with the forum. You did nothing wrong Moley. And I am so sorry if you end up taking any heat for the reason I am leaving because it has nothing to do with either you or Jim and Katie's debate really.
I have always had a hard time with this forum with it's format of non-verbal communication. From day one.
God, I hope you can understand, I hope I can explain, I hope the forum knows, that there are no hard feelings, especially between you and me.
I need a break. It's a good thing.

To you Moley, many laughs you have bestowed, Love, Tonette

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 20:29:14 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Tonette
Subject: Tonette - luv and email if yer like- EV monitor NB
Message:
I just lost my reply to you when to tried to post. The gist being that I think it is great that we can fall out and make up and NOt turn into rotting veg - the real world not premielalaland.
Real life ... I think I said to you to check out Nige's repost below, along the same lines. Its words but that's wot we got... and even if we fall out - we're REAL and we can handle it

Lotsa luv

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 20:26:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Before you go .......
Message:
Tonette,

Care to talk sometime. Call me?

(250) 360-1040

Jim

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 14:29:47 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Before you go .......
Message:
Jim,

Looks like Gerry has pruned the debate. Well, I pretty much said what I wanted to say. What would be interesting is if a similar situation arises in the future with someone other than Katie. Don't know if that's possible as there's only one Katie:)

See you on the battleground.

John.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:48:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: You can say that again (maybe?)
Message:
Jim,

Looks like Gerry has pruned the debate. Well, I pretty much said what I wanted to say. What would be interesting is if a similar situation arises in the future with someone other than Katie. Don't know if that's possible as there's only one Katie:)

See you on the battleground.

John.


---

You're damn right it'd be interesting. And if there's ever another ex who says the same things she said, that person will also make their way through the meatgrinder of reason just like the good Lord intended.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 19:43:32 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jesus, Mary and Joseph!
Message:
That is a joke. I hope you can appreciate it. I was laughing when I wrote it. Black humor maybe but funny to me never-the-less.

What a kind person you are. And I still am dumbfounded you can put your phone number here on the net. Maybe I will call you sometime. If I am ever in Victoria, I will definately call. I would love to meet you.

I'm going to do something I thought would never happen. Jim, if you ever want to talk, assuming you don't get a repeating busy signal, after all I do live with two teenagers, here is my number:

301-229-8650

Keep on trucking, I am enamoured by you.

Love, Tonette

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 18:16:41 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Response to EPO -- McDuck's Comments
Message:
In a thread down below, I asked Michaed McDonald (McDuck) to tell us about his premie history. I didn't realize that he had already done that on Forum V, but he gave a great rendition of how in got into, and out of, the cult. Anyhow, I wanted to bring up this subject and ask if Michael can shed any more light on it. In particular, I was intrigued when Michael said the following:

Apart from donating money, my role in Elan Vital was minimal until 1999, when I was 'recruited' to the PR team because of my professional expertise. I spent a good deal of time contributing to press kits and website FAQs, which have always been diluted by political correctness, and some time writing historical pieces for a website - intended as an intelligent counter to ex-premie.org - which seems never to have materialised. I found the PR guys excellent to work with and I wish them all long and happy lives, but perhaps promoting a product which has fewer anomalies and moral dilemmas attached to it.

Who recruited you? Were you given any indication that M was aware of, or approved of this? Who are the PR guys you were working with? Was the goal to write a history of M's involvement in the West and 'explain' things like the ashrams, the Lord of the Universe, darshan, etc.? Was it stated that it was being done specifically as a response, or alternative to EPO? What kind of things were you contributing to Press Kits and FAQs?

Michael explained further:

I was writing historical overviews of each decade since the 1950s - and I mean the larger world, not Mr Rawat's milieu - which would be presented as a backdrop to the phenomenon of Mr Rawat. I portrayed the last half of the last century as a rollercoaster ride, and it certainly is if you have a bit of a look at it.

Others were writing on the Rawat phenomenon itself. Some of the articles made critical judgements.

Who were writing the 'Rawat phenomenon?' Do you mean there were 'critical judgments' of things Maharaji had said/done? In what way? Obviously, those never made it to the light of day, as one would expect. How 'critical' were they and what 'judgments' were made?

Continuing:

It was all reasonably intelligent, which is maybe why the website never emerged. Maybe it-aint-so was the preferred option but I don't know for sure as I'd left PR by the time I got to the 80s in my overview.

You mean there was a somewhat objective analysis and description of M's past? Did it address any of the many specific allegations on EPO?

Most of these efforts had to do the rounds of national contacts and other important people as well as the PR team, and the strength of the language was gradually diluted into bureaucratese. It's a wonder those FAQs on the websites ever appeared at all!

I gather that the work product got sent to so many people and so many changes were made that they lost all the 'intelligent' and 'critical' elements. Is that what you mean?

Obviously, when the FAQs and the Press Kit on the EV website finally got produced, which I think was in July, 2000, they no longer were 'intelligent.' They became in many instances outright fabrications, especially in regard to M's claims to divinity, the ashrams, the entire period 1976-1985, and the whole issue of the devotional path. This wasn't very "intelligent" because even devout premies knew they were false, and many were very embarrassed by them, just as many are embarrassed by enjoyinglife.org.

Also, I couldn't figure out who the PR genius was who set up a whole section of the website to try to prove that it wasn't a cult. My Dad used to say that anybody who has to try to prove they arent anti-semitic, probably is. The same applies to anybody who somebody trying to prove they aren't in a cult. Same thing applies to trying to say M DIDN'T claim to be God. For one thing, it just adds publicity to the fact there is controversy about that, and that kind of allegation doesn't just come out of nowhere.

I was actually quite surprised that there was any attempt to respond to EPO. I thought M would just try to ignore us, as he usually did to all his critics. I remember thinking, when I saw those FAQs, that the Rock of Gibraltar had just cracked, and I thought it was a great sign, because it would cause more discussion, which I believed was to everyones' benefit, except maybe for M himself.

Do you have any idea who eventually wrote those things -- the 'FAQS'and the "Press Kit" -- and whether M was involved? Do you think that those same 'PR' people were involved in 'It Ain't So' and 'Please Consider This?'

The Elan Vital FAQs and Press Kit, as well as the Press Releases, ended up giving us lots of grist for discussion, as did those other two websites, but they are all gone now, including the FAQs and Press Kit on EV, and removed in a very abrupt fashion, ESPECIALLY Please Consider This. Any idea about the change in strategy, particularly the EV sites?

Also, anything more on this general subject is interesting to me, including how anything gets decided about how M or anything about him is presented. It appears to be a very constipated process. I know John has touched on this some, but how do things get decided in the Maharaji world?

Thanks Michael. Your comments are very valuable and intersting.

Also, if anyone reading has any more information on this, please post or email. Thanks.

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 17:14:30 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: mcduck@echo.net.au
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Response to EPO -- McDuck's Comments
Message:
Joe,

Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you but I have a heavy workload at the moment and I had to find some time on the weekend to look at your questions and formulate responses. Let me say from the outset that I'm not comfortable naming some individuals in a public forum when many of them have been friends of mine for years and we've not yet had (or made) the opportunity to discuss my exing. The folks at F7 have a pretty good idea who the main figures are in international PR. Funnily enough I'm more familiar with who's resigned from NAM and UK PR than I am with the Australian mob. The fact that no-one from that team has attempted to contact me might argue that it's still intact.

Also please excuse me if I seem a little vague on detail at times. When I exed I trashed all the EV files from my computer. My life is deluged with hundreds of pieces of information each day, except maybe on Sundays, and I have enough trouble keeping what's currently relevant in order. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof, as Mr Nazareth was supposed to have said.

You asked: 'Who recruited you? Were you given any indication that M was aware of, or approved of this? Who are the PR guys you were working with? Was the goal to write a history of M's involvement in the West and 'explain' things like the ashrams, the Lord of the Universe, darshan, etc.? Was it stated that it was being done specifically as a response, or alternative to EPO? What kind of things were you contributing to Press Kits and FAQs?'

'Recruit' is me being a tad facetious. I was asked by the Pacific Contact in 98/99 to attend a PR strategy meeting with a professional Brisbane PR company. I'd say that meeting was in response to the bad press generated in the Brisbane Courier-Mail in 97(?). A crisis management team was formed and a procedural manual written. The team included members who could provide input from other areas, eg security, administration etc. It was the team's job to deal with PR crises for Amaroo and EV Australia. A couple of hypothetical scenarios: the sewerage system at Amaroo breaks down and floods the local creek; a PWK commits suicide. It was pretty quiet while I was on board and, apart from offering opinions, I drafted a couple of press releases and worked on an FAQ for the EV Oz website until it was decided to operate from an international template for those sorts of things.

From there I was asked to join the international PR team, probably on the Pacific Contact's recommendation. Whether M was aware of my membership I don't know, though you would assume J M Bonthous would give M a brief rundown on the team. I wrote a variety of things, including a paper on the pros and cons of satellite broadcasts for a Swiss member of the team, and an unsolicited comment to Visions on the use of indigenous images without permission. As well as the work of the PR specialists, there was input from regional and national contacts. At some stage in 99 we were asked to evaluate the impact of EPO. Initially one of the comments I offered was, 'The dogs bark but the caravan moves on.' Later the impact of EPO was judged to be more critical - I would say in a conversation between M and JMB - and proposals for two websites were contemplated - a site specifically for the news media, and the 'intelligent' site to counter the information on EPO, though not necessarily hitting it head on by answering specific allegations. Locally, I wrote the first draft of a new EV press kit; internationally I worked on the FAQs by giving input to questions like 'Did M ever say he was God?' and 'Who owns the plane M flies?' At the time I was disturbed by the direction in which the FAQs were going but I was too compliant to want to overly rock the boat. No journalist, presented with the evidence, is going to conclude that M never said he was God or a close facsimile thereof, or that the plane was not for his exclusive use, so it might as well be his. I made the second point at one stage and someone brought up the former. These 'insights' were inevitably diluted in the general porridge of write and re-write, but in the end (and this is an assumption on my part) it would boil down to JMB presenting a draft FAQ to M and him saying yay or nay.

You asked: 'Who were writing the 'Rawat phenomenon?' Do you mean there were 'critical judgments' of things Maharaji had said/done? In what way? Obviously, those never made it to the light of day, as one would expect. How 'critical' were they and what 'judgments' were made?

It was the usual suspects, including Glen W and Mark W. I think I tried to involve John Macgregor at one stage, but he was too busy with other service. The project was treated like an e-zine, and an editorial team operated out of England for the initial collation. There may have been another team in the US. I can't give you chapter and verse on the critical judgements, Joe, because I don't remember. They were relatively mild but included hints that M was in some ways naive about dealing with the West (he's said that himself), and some of his decisions were in hindsight not the best. It was approached as a sociological phenomenon, as if 'impartial' scholars were putting M's work in a larger context. Some of the contributions did break down into devotional twaddle and had to be abandoned.

You said: 'I gather that the work product got sent to so many people and so many changes were made that they lost all the 'intelligent' and 'critical' elements. Is that what you mean?

In relation to the FAQ, yes. But as I said above, the final decision would be with M or left to JMB.

You said: 'I was actually quite surprised that there was any attempt to respond to EPO. I thought M would just try to ignore us, as he usually did to all his critics. I remember thinking, when I saw those FAQs, that the Rock of Gibraltar had just cracked, and I thought it was a great sign, because it would cause more discussion, which I believed was to everyones' benefit, except maybe for M himself.'

I think you're right. In a sense it added legitimacy to EPO, seeing that EV regarded its opponents as meriting a response, and the analysis of the FAQs by people like you and Jim would lead people thinking of exing to consider the matter more deeply, as would disinterested onlookers.

You asked: 'Do you have any idea who eventually wrote those things -- the 'FAQS'and the 'Press Kit' -- and whether M was involved? Do you think that those same 'PR' people were involved in 'It Ain't So' and 'Please Consider This?''

The FAQs and the Press Kit would have had input from dozens of people world-wide on the First Class network. In the end, either M would have had to approve it directly or entrusted it to JMB. As to It Ain't So - and this is a big assumption for which I can offer no direct proof - I think that website was the bastard child of the originally proposed website I worked on, but stripped of intellectual vitality and rigour. As to Please Consider This, I don't know.

You said: 'The Elan Vital FAQs and Press Kit, as well as the Press Releases, ended up giving us lots of grist for discussion, as did those other two websites, but they are all gone now, including the FAQs and Press Kit on EV, and removed in a very abrupt fashion, ESPECIALLY Please Consider This. Any idea about the change in strategy, particularly the EV sites?'

Well, it didn't work, did it? It strengthened the resolve of those on the forum rather than demolished their position. If EV continues to exist, it will need a press kit and a PR policy at some stage. In the meantime, ignoring EPO and its attendant issues may prove to be the most effective strategy, especially when your leader is not prepared to face his critics or the media head-on. He knows what will happen if he gets angry with the sleeping tiger. He does not have the kind of rhinoceros hide (lot of animal metaphors here) which politicians develop to deal with journalists, nor will he give an inch of ground publicly on his status or lifestyle. He's unlikely to publicly renounce the idea of master like Krishnamurti, or say, 'I fucked up and am going to make some changes', or 'Fuck you, money and morality have got nothing to do with spirituality, and I'll live my life how I please' (which would be an honest opinion to present to the media), so his PR team has no room to move. Consume, be silent, and die.

You said: 'Also, anything more on this general subject is interesting to me, including how anything gets decided about how M or anything about him is presented. It appears to be a very constipated process. I know John has touched on this some, but how do things get decided in the Maharaji world?'

Yes, it is constipated, if not paralysed, as I've posited before. I think I've touched on how decisions are made, to the best of my knowledge. I've not answered all your questions but that's a reasonable first shot at it. Let me know if there's more and I'll strap on the protective rubber writing gear again.

All this is interesting in terms of historical analysis of PR procedure within a cult, but it doesn't add a great deal to what is already known.

Regards,

McDuck

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 23:25:43 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Thanks,McDuck,mofre pieces in the puzz;e nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 23:56:00 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: That's easy for you to write ;) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 23:08:59 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Wowee! Thanks for that input, McDuck
Message:
This is tremendous confirmation of Maha's knowledge and involvement of spin campaigns. I agree that Maha is shooting himself in the foot by not taking a stand. And furthermore, I stand firm on my outspoken opinions that the media is the Achilles Heel of this Cult. I also agree that he is too thinned skin for media scrutiny. He is a middle aged man who has been sheltered. He is emotionally a child, and his temperments attest to this criticism. His temper tantrums are kept behind closed doors. It's only a dirty little family secret. Unfortunately, crimes perpetuate in those conditions.

Media is something all cults go out of their way to avoid. For an apparent good reason. It is because the media was scrutinizing Jim Jones, that the People's Temple moved to Guyana. It is because Russia was physically isolated with closed borders that Stalinism flourished undetected. Thanks for the validation.

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 21:33:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: This stuff is great!
Message:
This stuff is great, McDuck. We've got this almost insatiable itch here for a detailed glimpse into how real-life human beings could have possibly created some of the balderdash EV's put out trying to cover for Maharaji. Everyone likes to watch liars squirm. Everyone's got a bit of the cat in them, especially when the mouse turns out to be an arrogant Hamster in a gold-plated chariot.

Following up on Joe's questions, I'd like to know if you guys ever actually discussed some of the many responses and criticisms things like the EV FAQ triggered over here? For instance, did you ever heard premies working on these PR-related assignments even gingerly broach the subject of whether or not M had, in fact, ever called himself God irrespective of the FAQ answer?

Also, you say that M will never do a Krishnamurti. Did you ever hear any high-placed premies say they wish he would?

Hell, man, I'm just asking for whatever further details you've got on any of this stuff. Old hat to you, interesting to us. You know.

Finally, regarding your anonymous name, isn't your identity pretty obvious to EV given what you did and when, etc.? I don't know if you've been over this before elsewhere, but have you been questioned or confronted in any way? And have you seen others scrutinized for their current loyalty? Is the cult actively trying to smoke out closet exes, etc.?

Thanks

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:40:51 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: This stuff is great!
Message:
Jim,

if you read my post above, you'll see I've ansered your first two questions on the FAQ.

Never heard anyone raise the Krishnamurti Bailout.

All my friends, premie or otherwise, know my nickname, McDuck. I'm just using it here because it takes less time to write and is not so formal.

I haven't been questioned or confronted at all, and I have no knowledge of the cult trying to smoke out people.

Cheers,

McDuck

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 18:25:50 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Joe
Subject: Email
Message:
thanks.
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:40:03 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Light diversion - and a mindblower
Message:
Click here http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/PR/96/01/HDF.mpg

(or copy and paste, if my HTML skills are as bad as I've just proved on the Anything Goes forum).
[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:42:45 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: oops, forgot to mention -
Message:
that's a scale version animation that ends in an image from the Hubble telescope's Deep Field imaging.

Explanation here: http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=louella&id=9116.1397603149587

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 13:42:32 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: All
Subject: International Conference Management
Message:
All you sleuths can anyone find out more about this company? I got this email from EV today:

Many subscribers have written asking for information about their registration (confirmations etc.) for the event in Miami.

Unfortunately, we are not able to answer registration queries sent to the Elan Vital Mailing lists.

The company handling the registrations is International Conference Management in Bethesda, Md.

EV Mailing list team.

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 23:15:09 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: International Conference Management
Message:
Attached is their website.
[ International Conference Management ]
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 22:19:22 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I'm leaving, I have left, however...
Message:
Bethesda, MD is 2 miles from me. Do you happen to have an address? Never-the-less, I do have a phone book! Do you have a phone number?
I WILL go visit. Is the name exactly International Conferance Management?
I'm in Bethesda all the time, after all, the video store is there, the book store, grocery and the filtered water store. I'll see what I can do. At least go visit. This definately calls for a visit. Post what else you know and I promised myself I was leaving! I'll tell what I find out. I am leaving but this is something maybe I can help with. What do you think they will do when they find out they are bedding for business a cult? Knowing Bethesda, it's probably a bunch of yuppies who only care about turning a buck. But we will see. I'm taking an ex with me. John, are you reading here, wanna have some fun?

I am leaving, I wrote my swan song but this is too tempting!

Regards, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 13:54:17 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Tonette
Subject: Tonette, I hope you've left by now ;)
Message:
Just take a break but don't forget to keep in touch with me by email.

Lots of love to you.

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 16:55:30 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yep, this is it, checking myself out
Message:
I love you too Pat.

I only hope for your happiness, a great time with Chuck and a life long friend and maybe, just maybe someday we will meet.

I'll forget the ICF unless I stumble over them.

I will miss you.

Love, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 02:41:40 (EST)
From: JS
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Tonette, do you remember Vuko?
Message:
Do you remember 'Diamond Jim' Vuko from the 1970's in the DC community?

He's definitely still involved in the DC premie thing-I think he's married to a woman who got k a few years ago, and is a writer for a local paper...

'DJ' considered himself quite a ladies man, and yes, did wear jump suits and occassionally would sing some strange songs at satsang...

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 17:21:04 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: International Conference Management
Message:
Right before I found EPO, I was up for a 'Participation' job with Elan Vital. It entailed helping to build a substantial data base of places around the US that could host an event, of varying sizes. Also, they wanted someone to help build into this database all pertinent info about that city, as in directions, hotels, restaurants, airports, shuttles, etc etc etc.

I remember getting an odd idea that this was fairly extensive just so M could call an event at a moments notice, since he hardly goes anywhere on a moments notice.

So the thought crossed my mind that this same information gotten from free Participation labor, could be parlayed into a company that coordinates conventions, etc.

The hoops and interviews for that job were ridiculous. It was like getting interviewed for a CEO position. I was getting really annoyed and was about to tell them to keep their crummy participation job when I was called. 'You can have it if you still want it' was how it was put. It was so contradictory in tone compared to the upbeat interview calls.

If this is a shell for M and his little friends, it's a good way to siphon off premie labor, which is all participation is.

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 02:36:25 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Whoa, thanks Vicki
Message:
Your input is valuable here. All I've got is my visceral experiences and some old ashram stories. Thanks for filling us in.

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 00:07:51 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@SPQR.it
To: Vicki
Subject: yeah, premies put in huge hours
Message:
researching all that stuff meticulously in each city -- to be used only for non-profit rugu cult org [EVI] purposes -- the community event info was NOT intended to be farmed out for commercial purposes. If people had had any idea that they were being used to set up another business to profit someone else, most would have insisted on getting paid for their professional time - or said 'NO way, Jose!'

I know what I would have said, upon hearing such tidings: 'Demonstra mihi semitam ad vomitorium, sis?' [trans: 'Can you show me the way to the vomitorium?!'

followed by: 'Nonne ille Imperator paululum cruentum est?' [That Emperor's a bit bloodthirsty isn't he?],

and concluding with: 'Non plus cerebrorum elixorum, gratias.' [No more boiled brains, thanks!!']

oh well: 'Veni, vidi, vomui' [I came, I saw, I threw up!]

Vale [ciao],

da lil swami

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 19:22:13 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: This is important!!!!
Message:
Vicki's post points to the modern way premies' free labor is used to make money for Maharaji. The idea that people running businesses are incorporating free premie labor into their business plans is, quite frankly, sick.

Let's end this type of participation, what do you say, Prempal?

John.

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:22:17 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@industrial_strength_D-Con.com
To: PatC
Subject: 'industrial strength' Conference Management
Message:
International Conference Management:

'...an industrial strength conference management web solution that you can rent by the month. Conference.com brings the same powerful features to the web that made our client/server applications a benchmark for the industry.  Private label features allow you to preserve your identity while taking advantage of this powerful engine...  

...It’s time to retool to meet your competitors’ challenges and the rising expectations of your attendees.'!!!!

http://www.conference.com/abouticm.html
[ http://www.conference.com/abouticm.html ]

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 22:40:31 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Remember Jim Vuko anyone?
Message:
Jim Vuko, Vice President - International Conference Management!
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 01:28:20 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: Yes, Jim Vuko?
Message:
Jim Vuko was one of the Honchos as 'Travel Lite' the cult travel agency, the successor in interest to AIITA. Joe Anctil was head of both.
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 00:13:50 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: Sounds very familiar [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 00:12:30 (EST)
From: Didn't he
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: wear jumpsuits a lot? ~) ~) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 17:46:08 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: For 'industrial strength' church ladies [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:14:02 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: 16 results here, Pat
Message:
16 results
here
Pat.

Haven't had time to check them all (and this is a 'many hands make light work' scenario, not 'too many cooks')!

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:21:41 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You're right.& I should 'refresh' more often(nt)
Message:
You're right. And I should 'refresh' more often (nt)
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:34:50 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: (not to mention target practice) nt
Message:
(not to mention target practice) nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:21:36 (EST)
From: link # 11
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: is the same
Message:
Steve Adler
International Conference Management
4853 Cordell Ave., 16th Floor, PH#1
Bethesda, MD 20814 USA
fax 301-913-5452
sadler@conference.com
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:04:43 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: link # 11
Subject: Steve Adler is still around? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 16:55:16 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Steve Adler is still around?
Message:
Is he a premie?
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 17:37:24 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Think so
Message:
I think he's the guy that used to run the premie airline Travel company that housed and flew premies for years to festival. I rec'd K in '80 and they had been around for years but closed down about a '81. It was on Lincoln Square (gee-it all blurs) in Miami Beach. They would also go the hotels on Collins Ave and assign the rooms.
A guy I knew, Tom Molone, worked there as well.
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 00:15:29 (EST)
From: Veg-o-matic
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Think so
Message:
Sure he's not this guy?

Steve 'Mr. Raw' Adler

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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 19:46:55 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Veg-o-matic
Subject: Ha ha, I saw yesterday myself on net })
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 23:43:36 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Aitta Travel - John Davis? (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 00:11:08 (EST)
From: Deobrah
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: Re: Aitta Travel sounds right
Message:
But John Davis doesn't. I think it WAS Steve Adler. Do you remember Tom Malone? He travelled around the world to programs as a perk for having working there. I knew Tom before I was a premie. I was astonished that they could all be following Maha. Of course, not it makes sense :p DUH!
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:15:08 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Notice website says NOTHING
Message:
Just a picture of threee Hungarian women. No information. No picture of the people who are operating out of Bethseda. Why? Don't they want to pay their taxes? Don't they want to be accountable for anything? Rhetorical questions.
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:27:30 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Notice website says NOTHING
Message:
This is strange. At the ''Invitation Programs'' or whatever they called them they requested CASH$$$$$US.

I wonder what this company is charging EV or ??? to handle their conferences. And is it CASH ONLY?

How many companies deep does it take to make a cult even more secret? Rhetorical question.

:)

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:17:18 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: It's # 10 but link is broken [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 13:58:46 (EST)
From: Nick Danger, Third Eye
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: International Conference Management
Message:
Here you go.
[ Conference Management International ]
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:09:28 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nick Danger, Third Eye
Subject: and the Whois info...
Message:

[ Whois info ]
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