Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Dec 05, 2001 To: Dec 12, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Joe -:- What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:29:20 (EST)
__ sulla -:- Re: What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:01:20 (EST)
__ __ Sulla -:- The breath and the swing -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:08:45 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Vital organs vs. Elan Vital organs -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:22:29 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- 'Elan Vital' -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:58:16 (EST)
__ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: 'Elan Vital' -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:25:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Right -- see Nigel's post (above) nt -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:32:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Silly me NT -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 19:08:18 (EST)
__ Pullaver -:- The Oracle and Forrest Gump -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:35 (EST)
__ RichMandrake -:- Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey.. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 18:24:00 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Jack Handey was Al Franken -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:50:26 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Just for fun, my analysis -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:46:34 (EST)
__ Andrea Eriksonn -:- Joe, it's so EASY to understand... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:17:23 (EST)
__ __ Andrew Davidson -:- $$$ BEST OF FORUM $$$ [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 21:53:28 (EST)
__ Joy -:- M doesn't actually say anything -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:09:45 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Well done, Joy and (OT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:48:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:56:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Re: Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 23:48:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Ken Campbell -:- Re: Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:32:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Course you can come, Barbara... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 06:56:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Re: Course you can come, Barbara... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:45:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- That would be SO COOL -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:21:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Yes, indeedy -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:32:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:02:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Flags at half-mast..? -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:59:11 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- Excellent post, Joy -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:23:26 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:50:13 (EST)
__ __ such -:- what pajamas? hohoho [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:19 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- It's not, Oh well , there goes that concept nt -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:58:48 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:05:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Yoko -:- Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:38:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- That could be a rap song. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:18:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ berni -:- Re: That could be a rap song. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:47:50 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Great post, Joe.. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:45:00 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- How to Listen to Satsang... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:49:01 (EST)

Rick -:- White Boy Goes Taliban (OT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:38:58 (EST)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:11:02 (EST)
__ __ Barbara -:- Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT) -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 03:33:52 (EST)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT) -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:11:39 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- Not totally OT... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:32:35 (EST)
__ __ such -:- yep,he went whole-hog gung-ho WPC -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:02:29 (EST)

gerry -:- 'IT' is coming (not OT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:32:05 (EST)
__ salam -:- is that it? -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 20:00:23 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Sounds Spendeeeeey, -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:48:02 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: Sounds Spendeeeeey, -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 20:15:31 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Lots of bells and whistles -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:36:08 (EST)
__ such -:- does it come with da Ginzu steak knives? -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:48:05 (EST)

don -:- miami event -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:27:58 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Translation -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:53:45 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Re: miami event -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:41:37 (EST)

Abi -:- virus alert -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:44:13 (EST)
__ Chuck S. -:- The 'Pentagone' virus... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:35:30 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: virus alert -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:46:36 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- It ain't Badtrans, John -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:32:25 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- You're probably right -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:45:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- yes, it's the goner virus right -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:45:24 (EST)

John Macgregor -:- JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:25:06 (EST)
__ Sulla -:- Re: JSCA -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:10:31 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Besides posting here -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 02:48:46 (EST)
__ __ J McG -:- remorse etc -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:30:23 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- How about stones in your shoes?;) -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:21:18 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- the thing is it is much easier -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 04:51:39 (EST)
__ McDuck -:- Re: JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 20:13:14 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Hey, Michael -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:48:43 (EST)
__ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: Hey, Michael -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:58:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pullaver -:- Counter EPO Website -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 22:08:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: Counter EPO Website -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 22:30:04 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- romantic Primate John -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 00:30:52 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Re: JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:22:30 (EST)
__ Lesley -:- A sensible argument for God's existence -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:46:35 (EST)
__ __ McDuck -:- Re: A sensible argument for God's existence -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 21:11:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- lol, and it rhymes -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:16:52 (EST)
__ Chuck S. -:- You have a very clear understanding... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:59:27 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Re the Trolls/David Lovejoy -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:49:03 (EST)
__ __ Southern Spotted Rock Quoll -:- Re: Re the Trolls/David Lovejoy -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 21:13:28 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Okay, I'm game -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 23:40:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ SSRQ -:- Re: Okay, I'm game -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 02:33:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- No, it's not -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:34:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SSRQ -:- Re: No, it's not -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:00:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sorry SSR -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:49:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ . -:- You're not game. You're prey. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:07:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mr C WAssel -:- Re: You're not game. You're prey. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:56:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scampi -:- Facts (are important don't you know) -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:29:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Red Snapper -:- Re: Facts (are important don't you know) -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:01:53 (EST)
__ Pullaver -:- Re: JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 13:05:01 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Re: JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:08:19 (EST)
__ Jim S. -:- John. Please Consider This... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 10:33:54 (EST)
__ Patrick W -:- Re: JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 07:50:52 (EST)
__ __ Carl -:- Wonderful post, Patrick -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 08:41:43 (EST)
__ __ Voyeur -:- Re: JSCA -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 09:19:31 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Another wonderful post, John -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:23:28 (EST)
__ Channeling George -:- Somewhere -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:06:26 (EST)
__ __ channelling Morrison -:- the end -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:47:33 (EST)
__ __ __ channeling george -:- yep, I like that song! -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:37:32 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Here you go -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:20:07 (EST)
__ __ __ c.g. -:- you're welcome -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:39:18 (EST)
__ __ So why have over 90 per cent -:- of Maharaji's students -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:43:02 (EST)
__ __ __ c.g. -:- because they identify GM with Prempal -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:42:05 (EST)
__ __ __ and the other 10% are devoid -:- of any humanness (NT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:58:55 (EST)
__ __ Summary of CG's post -:- We love Guru Maharaj Ji [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:30:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Z -:- We love Guru Maharaj Ji [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:53:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ c.g. -:- question: who is GM? -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:42:50 (EST)


Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:29:20 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it.
Message:
I have heard some people say they find what Maharaji says inspiring. Actually, even as a premie, I can say that is something that was never, ever true for me, although I might have said it sometimes.

When I listened to M, I just tried to turn my brain off and 'be open,' because if I thought about what he was saying, it was ridiculous. Amazingly simplistic and dumb. Because those thoughts constituted 'doubts' and because Maharaji commanded me NOT to doubt, I did my best to just let what he said waft over me with no analysis whatsoever. In today's premie jargon, I was trying to listen to M with my 'heart' instead of my 'mind.'

But what he says is really stupid, perhaps mixed in with some things that are maybe kind of reasonable. For example, the following is from M speaking in Rome in June, of this year:

The future does not know about you, and the past has forgotten you. Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

Is he trying to say we might die at any time? I guesso, but I'm not sure. Okay, let's assume that. What 'elbow room' is he talking about? Then, he says:

There is no room for error. Your existence isn't a compensatory body that tries to compensate for all your mistakes. Life is not a shock absorber. Life is not a rubber sole on your shoe. Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. Life is none of these things.

What mistakes? What error? What is the difference between 'existence' and 'life?' What the fuck is he talking about? So what if life isn't an elastic band in your pajamas? He makes no sense, and yet this is what they chose to print in the Elan Vital online newsletter, supposedly because it was the most profound statement in his satsang. Again, I assume he is trying to say you might die at anytime. Okay, let's assume that. True statement, but hardly inspiring.

Next, he just drops that discussion and starts talking about breathing:

You need to begin first by recognizing this breath. In theory, it should be incredibly simple for the living to understand the value of the breath because without that, there would be nothing. Without that, you would merely turn blue. Without that, your brain would not function, your eyes would not function, your ears would not function, your hands would not function, your heart would not function, your kidneys would not function: nothing would function. You would think that there would be a recognition of its importance, but there isn’t. Everything else comes in between - all the concepts, all the ideas, all the preferences.

Okay, so you need to breathe and it's important. True, maybe your heart would stop beating if you weren't breathing, but you would also stop breathing if your heart stopped beating. That's just as true.

You also have to have blood flow, a nervous system, a functioning liver, and a bunch of other elements of the body or you couldn't breathe either, at least not for very long, and just like not being able to breathe, losing your nervous system, the thing that tells your body to breathe, would also make it impossible for anything else to function. So why doesn't M say that first you have to understand the value of your nervous system, or brain? Why breathing?

And even if you could breathe, if you didn't have oxygen, it wouldn't do any good anyway, or if you had breath but no lungs, or lungs but no circulatory system so the oxygen could do your body any good, you wouldn't have life either. Why not just pick one of those things for what you "need to understand" the value of?

The point is, why does he pick BREATHING as this thing YOU NEED TO RECOGNIZE as having profound importance for 'life' above all else when other things are equally, and perhaps MORE important? [I mean, I was taught in first aid in Boy Scouts that if someone was both not breathing, and bleeding from an artery, it was MORE important to stop the bleeding first, because the person would die sooner from loss of blood than lack of air.]

Does M do this because he is trying to tie breath into 'life force' and that to the 'word' meditation technique (now technique number three)? If you think about it, it makes no other sense.

And if so, why do you need light, music and nectar techniques? What are they for if it's the breath that's important?

I am CONVINCED that the only way people say that they find M inspiring is because they DON'T actually listen to what he says. That's why if you ask a premie to tell you what, in content, Maharaji said, they are usually unable to tell you, except maybe for the 'joke' M told, or the general gist of being reminded of the value of 'life.'

The first time I realized this phenomenon was when I brought a person whom I respected to see M for the first time, in about 1981 or so. She was polite, but after nearly falling asleep while M rambled on, she told me later that there wasn't any content in what M said, that it was disjointed, and made no sense.

I remember thinking at the time that was because she was listening to the 'words' with her mind instead of her 'heart' or some such nonsense. Then I thought about that thought, and I had a major DRIP.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:01:20 (EST)
From: sulla
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it.
Message:
I also notice this obsession for the breath. I had the impression that he meant that God is in the breath. It sounded so weird for me,and more weird when he was talking about a baby who was breathing for the first time after he was born, and how this breath made him to be alive and an individual, independent of the mother, not part of her mother's body any more, but himself. I really was wondering if I heard this reasoning before in the pro abortion movement. I believe that the baby was alive since the moment of conception, and an individual human been even while in her mother's womb.

Sorry about misspells or grammar errors.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:08:45 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: sulla
Subject: The breath and the swing
Message:
When I received K it was explained to me that breath was the vehicle to go to a place inside so I could feel the experience of the holy name. I wasn't told that the experience was in the action of breathe. My husband was told to make a noise, and visualise M in a swing, but he couldn't do it that way, because while the breath went up and down with the sound, the swing went from left to right. I think M is so confuse now, he is trying to understand and explain things that he himself doesn't understand. He is changing all the foundations of this K trip at his will and understanding. I would rather follow Satpal, at least he is more authentic.

Oh my God! Another premie calling me to find out what was going on with me, we started arguing and I had to tell her that I was going to believe that even if Maharaji was the devil she would follow him. I would! she answered. I can't believe it, but I heard something like that lot of times. I don't have patience. She doesn't care and she doesn't want to know. Why she ask then? She doesn't want to talked to me again either. It's OK.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:22:29 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Vital organs vs. Elan Vital organs
Message:
I guess the reason 'vital organs' are so-called, is because each is vital for survival and must, by definition, be equally vital - as you have so astutely pointed out, Joe.

The thing is, both 'breath' meaning 'life' and 'heart' meaning 'emotional core' are fairly standard metaphors in non-cult circles - and not bad ones when used as simple figures of speech. The trouble with M's use of the the terms is the way he thoughtlessly confounds 'breath' as process, or 'heart' as vital organ (physical) with 'breath' as 'life force' and 'heart' as 'elan vital organ' (supposedly 'spiritual') as if the literal apllications were interchangable with the figurative. Hence the irrational nonsense in the passage you quoted.

NB for folk unaware of the term's origin: 'Elan Vital' was first coined by the philosopher Henri Bergson to describe an unseen entitiy or life force which not only animates us (defines the difference between a live body and a dead one), but also serves as the guiding hand behind evolutionary change. Regarded by most scientists as cranky nonsense, Bergson's theory sits well enough with M's cranky nonsense.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:58:16 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Nigel
Subject: 'Elan Vital'
Message:
I recall being at IHQ in Miami circa 1980, when the decision was made to change both 'And It Is Divine' and 'Divine Light Mission' to 'Elan Vital.'

Like Richard said, AIID was a pretty stupid name for a magazine, and the explanation regarding DLM was twofold: First, we wanted to get rid of the 'Divine' implications and second, M wanted to create the pretense that EV and DLM were 'different' organizations.

I do recall somebody at IHQ, might have been Dennis Marciniak, talking about how the name came from a French philosopher. I don't know who suggested the name to Maharaji, but it's certain HE didn't do the research. At the time, he was still spouting his profoundly anti-intellectual nonsense, even saying he had never read a book himself.

As we know, at least in the States, Elan Vital is nothing more that DLM with a name change, and even on the current, shrunken EV website, it states that EV has been around 'since 1971.' The name change did not even happen until 1986.

So, the magazine title got changed, but it remained a gaudy, grotesque publication, with almost nothing but garish pictures of Maharaji with his corpulent face sticking out of Krishna crowns. I am told by people from SHIP that his pictures had the zits air-brushed off of them. I don't know if they also air-brushed out a few of his chins.

The 'satsang' in them was heavily edited, but still unreadable. And NOTHING else was in the magazines anymore as there had been in AIID. Remember the stories on Yuri Geller, and even a "Womens' issue?" The focus of the EV magazine was entirely on the worship of Prem Pal Singh Rawat/Guru Maharaj Ji.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:25:43 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: 'Elan Vital'
Message:
Joe, the French philosopher was Henri Bergson, early 20th century. Haven't been able to find out who originally suggested 'Elan Vital'.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:32:46 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Right -- see Nigel's post (above) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 19:08:18 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Silly me NT
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:35 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Oracle and Forrest Gump
Message:
Actually the reverse seems to make a trifle more sense:

There is room for error. Your existence is a compensatory body that tries to compensate for all your mistakes. Life is a shock absorber. Life is a rubber sole on your shoe. Life is an elastic band on your pajamas. Life is all of these things.

As Forrest Gump said with more poignancy: life is a like a box of chocolates. . .

Speaking of Forrest Gump, how about these Gumpisms?

Forrest Gump: My mama always said life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.

Mrs. Gump: Remember what I told you, Forrest. You're no different than anybody else is. Did you hear what I said, Forrest? You're the same as everybody else. You are no different.
Principal: Your boy's... different, Miz Gump. His IQ's 75.
Mrs. Gump: Well, we're all different, Mr. Hancock.

Mrs. Gump defines vacation: Vacation's when you go somewhere... and you don't ever come back.

Jenny Curran: Do you ever dream, Forrest, about who you're gonna be?
Forrest Gump: Who I'm gonna be?
Jenny Curran: Yeah.
Forrest Gump: Aren't, aren't I going to be me?

Forrest Gump: My name's Forrest Gump. People call me Forrest Gump.
Drill Sergeant: Gump! What's your sole purpose in this army?
Forrest Gump: To do whatever you tell me, drill sergeant?
Drill Sergeant: God damn it, Gump! You're a goddamn genius. That's the most outstanding answer I've ever heard. You must have a goddamn IQ of 160. You are goddamn gifted, Private Gump. Listen up, people...

Forrest Gump: Now for some reason I fit in the army like one of them round pegs. It's not really hard. You just make your bed real neat and remember to stand up straight and always answer every question with 'Yes, drill sergeant.'

Drill Sergeant: ...Is that clear?
Forrest Gump: Yes, drill sergeant!

Forrest Gump: He was from a long great military tradition. Somebody from his family had fought and died in every single American war. I guess you could say he had a lot to live up to.

Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does.

Mrs. Gump: Don't you be afraid, sweetheart. Death is just a part of life, something we're all destined to do.

Mrs. Gump: I happen to believe you make your own destiny. You have to do the best with what God gave you.
Forrest Gump: What's my destiny, Mama?
Mrs. Gump: You're gonna have to figure that out for yourself. Life is a box of chocolates, Forrest. You never know what you're gonna get.

Jenny throws several rocks at her former home and then collapses in tears.
Forrest Gump: I guess sometimes there's just not enough rocks.

Forrest Gump: I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is.

Forrest Gump: My mama always said you got to put the past behind you before you can move on.

Forrest Gump: I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floatin' around accidental-like on a breeze. But I, I think maybe it's both, maybe both happening at the same time.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 18:24:00 (EST)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey..
Message:
In the early '90s Saturday Night Live had a Poetric/Prose Skit called 'Deep thoughts...By Jack Handey'. It featured incredibly dumb and disjointed Poems...made funnier by their attempt at Profundity.

There was a cast member back then named E Whitley Brown (or something like that). I had heard that he was a premie and had created the Skit based on Maharaji's Poems. Anyone know anything about that???...

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:50:26 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Jack Handey was Al Franken
Message:
And I think you mean E. Whitney Brown, who was on SNL but was never a premie, as far as I know.
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:46:34 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Just for fun, my analysis
Message:
The future does not know about you, and the past has forgotten you. Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

{Tongue in cheek} or maybe not, this could be interpreted as an inside glance into m's psyche. Musing over the way he views his past, predicting his own future.

the past has forgotten you.

Sounds like he is speaking of his own hopes for his past revision system to actually work and the LOTU, DLM, stuff, etc. is forgotten buried.

Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

This sentence seems like he is fearfully pondering his own future, Precarious, walking a thin line, no elbow room.

Propagating bunko juju knowledge in the age of real information has him freaked out.

You just have to look real hard, read between the lines to get his real meaning Joe.

Brian the proof reading psychoanalyst

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:17:23 (EST)
From: Andrea Eriksonn
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, it's so EASY to understand...
Message:
... you really were listening with your 'doubtmaker', not your heart.
Let me explain. For example:

The future does not know about you, and the past has forgotten you. Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

This is to make you paranoid (for your own good, of course). You think you are o.k., and you forget about The Master. But in reality, nobody cares about you, at least not enough to remind you to breath and be grateful. Only the Master can do that, which is why you NEED Him, and should never doubt Him. If you do doubt Him, you may just slip right off that thin rope, and end up like decomposing vegetable matter, or even worse, as a complaining ex-student posting on F7.

There is no room for error. Your existence isn't a compensatory body that tries to compensate for all your mistakes. Life is not a shock absorber. Life is not a rubber sole on your shoe. Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. Life is none of these things.

I just can't believe you don't see the profound message here, Joe. The Teacher is clearly explaining that we need Him. There is NO ROOM for ERROR - so we'd better watch out, and stay close to He Who Never Makes Errors! He's not called the Perfect Master for nothing, you know. Without The Master, we are just fish caught in a net, happy that we're going to have our heads cut off. How could anyone doubt that?

And of course he is right to tell us that life is not like rubber products. He's saying that even though you are a premie, shitty things are going to happen in your life, because life is not a shock absorber, shit happens. So when shit happens in your life, even though you are following Him, it's not his fault. It's lifes fault, which is why you need Him, even though he can't stop the shitty stuff from happening anyway. He's not here to solve your problems, but here to remind you that you NEED HIM. As He wisely says, ''No man has ever saved himself''. And don't start nit-picking, like asking ''saved from WHAT?'' All premies know the words are not important.

You need to begin first by recognizing this breath. In theory, it should be incredibly simple for the living to understand the value of the breath because without that, there would be nothing. Without that, you would merely turn blue. Without that, your brain would not function, your eyes would not function, your ears would not function, your hands would not function, your heart would not function, your kidneys would not function: nothing would function. You would think that there would be a recognition of its importance, but there isn’t. Everything else comes in between - all the concepts, all the ideas, all the preferences.

Now this part is SO important, SO profound. You see, NO ONE ELSE in this world will tell you how important it is to breath, and be aware of it. He's told us many times, that NO ONE ELSE will tell us about the breath. All those yoga teachers who teach the techniques to just ANYONE, and don't ask for money, are just charletans who are not supporting Maharaji's work. People need to be reminded of the importance of their breath, but if they don't hear it from You-Know-Who, then it isn't worth Jack Shit.

Maharaji 'saves' us from all those ideas, concepts and preferences that come between us and our breath. And you can't buy that in a book somewhere, or have some yoga teacher or friend show you how to concentrate on your breath, because Maharaji doesn't make any money when that happens, which means his important work and and lifestyle are not supported. That is just plain WRONG. That's also why the techniques are secret, to prevent that sort of thing from happening. He is so wise!

And you go on and on about the techinques, you are SO unsyncronized! I mean EVERY thoroughly modern PWK knows that the actual techniques themselves are really quite incidental. That's why they've ended up on DVD, the Teacher is tired of talking about them, he'd rather talk about Himself and how we need to be paranoid about thinking we don't need Him. THAT is what is important.

As the Master has evolved over the years, he's given less and less importance to the techniques, and more and more importance to Himself, to the point where he makes very few claims about the techniques at all anymore, because they are unimportant without Him. The Gift means NOTHING without the Gift GIVER, who is so much more important than the Gift. If you had Kept In Touch like you were supposed to, you would know that. So don't talk to me about the techniques. I never talk about those, THAT sort of thing is for Churchladies.

If you weren't so busy being unsyncronized and filtering out the Good, I wouldn't have to explain all this. But I do explain, because I am kind and good, and not in a cult. But don't you try and trick me by asking me questions! I'm following the Teacher's example, and letting you know beforehand, that I DON'T WANT ANY. That was so thoughful of Him, and now it's thoughtful of me too!

Andrea Eriksonn,

- Who know's for sure that life isn't confusing when you only Consider This, not THAT, and who knows that rubber products will always fail you, but The Master never will, because it's not His fault that the elastic band in your pajamas always breaks eventually. As Maharaji once said, "Don't thank God, thank the Master." And I thank Him that I'm not in a cult! :)

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 21:53:28 (EST)
From: Andrew Davidson
Email: None
To: Andrea Eriksonn
Subject: $$$ BEST OF FORUM $$$ [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:09:45 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: M doesn't actually say anything
Message:
Hi Joe. Good points you raise. I think people (or more specifically, premies) find M inspiring because they are not listening with their critical faculties at all, they are projecting onto him that he is the Lord of the Universe (and whose idea was that?) and therefore ANYTHING that M said or did would be constituted to be inspiring. In the past, when I was under that spell, even the slightest glance from him would be enough to send you into rapture for days. I remember one time when Dennis Murphy (M's cook) brought me back in some tinfoil some half-eaten gulab jamuns which I had made for him and I was blissed out of my gourd that the LORD had actually eaten something I'd cooked. Now, under normal circumstances what would be one's reaction to some sloppy, half-eaten leftover food presented to you in tinfoil?

I, personally, have listened to thousands of hours of his satsang, and transcribed many, many of the speeches, and there really is nothing memorable said in it at all. Just surrender the reins of your life to Guru Maharaj Ji and all will be well. (Back when he was saying that more overtly than he is now. I guess now it's just surrender the details of your credit cards to Maharaji the Master and all will be well [for him].)

Your friend was still in possession of her faculties and not under the cult spell of phoney devotion and hence was able to see it so clearly for what it is (mind-numbing drivel with no real content whatsoever). As any thinking person would when they initially come into contact. Hence the lengthy 'aspirant' process which helps shut down those critical faculties and slowly steeps one in the brainwashing necessary to get into 'that feeling' and find M inspiring. I remember it took me several satsang meetings to finally 'get it'. Everyone's initial reaction is almost invariably 'Huh??'

If you don't somehow see and listen to him through the filter of his supposedly being divine, there's no way anybody could find what he says inspiring. The nightly news reader on television is more inspiring, really. In fact, I think his talk is specifically oriented towards shutting down those critical faculties, because it tends to go around in circles and never really comes to any logical point and is delivered in an arrogant and sneering fashion which implies you know nothing and are a dummy (because you're not blissed out all the time) and he is somehow in possession of more wisdom than you. It's patronizing in the extreme.

Hope all's well with you, look out for a Christmas card from me in the mail,
Joy

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:48:48 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Well done, Joy and (OT)
Message:
If you don't somehow see and listen to him through the filter of his supposedly being divine, there's no way anybody could find what he says inspiring.

That really sums it up, Joy. You have to have the mindset FIRST. After that, you would be inspired if he just drooled.

I already got your card. Man, you are getting things done early! Have a great holiday.

So, it appears definite that Kevin and I are going to Eng, Scotland and Ireland, but not until May-June, I think leaving Memorial Day weekend. Kevin wants to do a walking trip on the Dingle Peninsula in the middle, which I think is about 8 days. So, it will be England first, followed by Wales, then Ireland, then a ferry from Belfast to Scotland, then back to London and home. Think we can do that in 3 weeks? I do want to see you, so that will likely be either at the beginning or the end of the grand tour.

Getting this committment has been a major victory for me. Kevin has been unwilling to take a longer vacay due to his relatively recent position at the Tides Foundation. But I eventually won him over.

So, it looks like Cuba is out and the British Isles are IN.

In the meantime, maybe I can come up and see you in the States when you are back.

When we went to see 'The Closet,' I was reminded of all those many French and German films we went to see during our decompression from the ashram and the cult. While 'The Closet' was great -hysterically funny, it appears, unfortunately that the French film industry has gone to hell, another victim of Hollywood, I am afraid.

BTW -- Watched Ab Fab on Monday night. They had a rerun of my favorite episode, the one where they go to Morocco and Patsy sells the daughter into white slavery. So funny.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:56:01 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:
Don't forget to check out the hometown of me, Moley, Merseybeat, Magiclara, Larkin and Loafji.

'A splendid time is guaranteed for all...'

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 23:48:39 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:
I might be in your neck of the woods around June, possibly the same time as Joe. I'm helping some friends make a documentary on Ken Campbell who, I think, is from Liverpool (Sci Fi Theatre etc.).

If so, perhaps I might invite myself to join Joe, you, et al.?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:32:10 (EST)
From: Ken Campbell
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:
Great actor/producer
Really funny antagonist for Basil Faulty
when he gets Polly to pretend to be Sybil
:)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 06:56:19 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Barbara
Subject: Course you can come, Barbara...
Message:
Amazing you are doing a documentary on Ken Campbell. Fantastic guy. Did you ever see him as 'Oscar' in Brookside?

Will you be meeting him? Can you bring him along too..?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:45:14 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Course you can come, Barbara...
Message:
I've seen Ken C. in a movie where he plays a hotel clerk (can't remember the name), and I have a tape of one of his one man shows. I've got his CD Won Ketonka (sp??), about his visit to the islands where the inhabitants worship the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh and his riffs on pidgin English. I just printed out a 400 page thesis on Ken which I have yet to dive into.

Since my friends think my humor etc. is similar to his, they want me around when he's being interviewed, so if I can steal him away to join us, that'd be tres fun.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:21:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: That would be SO COOL
Message:
It would be great to see you there, Barbara, and maybe we can get Joy to show up as well. And please, bring Ken along. I'm sure you would have pithy things to say about the ex-Lord of the Universe.

The general outline of the plans is leaving Memorial Day weekend and connecting up with the Brits either early in June, or maybe later on the way back. No firm plans yet, so maybe we can wait to hear when you are there and plan accordingly.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:32:59 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, indeedy
Message:
One of the producers is going over in January to do some background work, so I'll have a better idea of the time frame when she returns.

Would def be fun.

I've always wanted to do a walking tour since I love to wander around like that. Your trip sounds great. Hope the timing works out, too.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:02:19 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:
Yes, I did think of that. Maybe we can work something out, maybe with Joy included. I didn't realize all those exes were in the same vicinity.

Are the flags still at half-mast?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:59:11 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Flags at half-mast..?
Message:
Not while Liverpool FC are three points clear at the top of the premier league for the first time in a decade...

But many sad faces and nostalgic reminiscences for sure. And the Town Hall flag was at half-mast on Saturday.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:23:26 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Excellent post, Joy
Message:
So well said. A++ (I am the middle of a major marking binge and writing like yours craps on the tedious drivel I have to deal with). Moley says she'll give you a bell in the next couple of days.. (can you email your phone no. again, Thanks.)
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:50:13 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas.
Message:
You're absolutely right about the relatively content-free nature of M's speeches. What a rambler.

I'm not sure he's talking about death in those two snippets you quoted, about 'elbow-room' and 'life is not a shock absorber.' I think he's talking about the need to be fanatically one-pointed, to not leave room for doubt in the mind, etc. It's the fear-mongering that is the stick that accompanies the carrot of Knowledge.

If you space out, you see, and get involved in 'the world' instead of servitude to God in the Flesh...that is a very dangerous thing. You will lose everything. He's mentioned 'rotten vegetables' and the like a few times, but usually he speaks in code, like he does here, to avoid being nailed on the charge of threatening his followers with hell or damnation or something like most religions do to help keep the faithful queuing up with their donations.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:19 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@nude_eden.org/y
To: Gregg
Subject: what pajamas? hohoho [nt]
Message:
we don't need no stinkin' pj's! hahaha
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:58:48 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: It's not, Oh well , there goes that concept nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:05:53 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas.
Message:
Interesting. I thought about that too. Kind of the 'tightrope' of being focused. I think it was sometimes referred to as 'the razor's edge.' If that's true, it's even more ridiculous because it's not supposed to be about fear of falling. According to M, I understood it was just about 'enjoyinglife.'

I think the point is, it's not about anything except connection to the uberlord.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:38:23 (EST)
From: Yoko
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas.
Message:
It's more like a plastic ono band when you are on the 6 lane freeway headin to the court of love at the feet of the master tree who looks down at all the weeds as there is only one true master at any one time who, of course, is timeless as well as being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent
The Big Giant Head
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:18:44 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Yoko
Subject: That could be a rap song.
Message:
well done
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:47:50 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: That could be a rap song.
Message:
They don't call me the mutthha JJ KOOL-j XP(that's ex-premie to you ole fogey dudes) for nutthin
I say thanx but I'm too hard and cool
b
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:45:00 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Great post, Joe..
Message:
Stay tuned for further thoughts - very closely related to your thread (ie., why is it there are no 'writings' of the corpulent Muddlehead avaiable to the needy public?
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:49:01 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: How to Listen to Satsang...
Message:
Hi Joe,

I remember when I was an aspirant back in '75, I was told that ''it'' meaning satsang was not about the words, but about the communication between the satsang giver and receiver. ''Don't worry if you don't understand something that's said, the understanding will come to your heart, this is not like regular communication, but from soul to soul.'' Well, I ate that one up obviously because I received k and joined the ashram.

This was a rationalization for all those muddled and nonsensical words from not only Maharaji but any premie who stood up to speak. It was an explanation that satsang, company of truth, was from one heart to the other, and the words were virtually meaningless. Juju. I remember folks would say stuff like ''Oh that person's so clear.'' Supposedly, the more one did meditation and service, the more clear a premie became. Pure BS.

Later, in 1997, when I tried to go back and revisit my connection to m, so many changes had taken place and no one was allowed to speak about anything. I thought (very naively), that as a premie who had been around during the devotional years and had returned, that some kind of explantion of all the changes would be given to me, either by a community coordinator or an instructor, i.e., why premies don't give satsang anymore, etc. But noooo. All I was told was to listen to Maharaji's videos/tapes and all the answers would come to me. I was especially given dirty looks when I mentioned I had been around M during the Deca years. I couldn't figure that out. Secrecy and juju again.

Well, no answers came, and here I am.

Revelations did come, but not exactly what Maharaji would have wanted me to discover. One drip came before I read EPO because of all the secrecy, unreasonable demands for money, and the lack of care for old time premies returning. Part of that drop included the elitism within the cult such as the apparent special attention given to big donors.

The second drip was my trip to Montreal to see him for the first time in 16 years. I felt absolutely nothing. I looked around after the program and many premies were in a trancelike state with that glazed over look in their eyes. I didn't have it. I didn't feel it. Nada. Nothing. No connection whatsoever! There was chaos in the Divine Sales area though, pushing, shoving, and more dirty looks. Glad I never paid for that program LOL!

The final drip was that horrendous ''satsang'' which I heard live over a satellite feed where m tore into premies about not being grateful enough to him for everything he has done, i.e., he saved our lives. Actually, that was the first time I heard him mention Phase II (now called the 'it's time for me phase.' He proclaimed that he had fulfilled Shri Maharaji's agya by bringing k to the world (yeah) and that Phase II would inlude training sessions for premies who wanted to be part of the team for propagation (sure). Yet he was vague about it and didn't get into details, but they would be forthcoming.

He cursed a lot (it was live and unedited) and was in such a pissy mood I just left after the feed very very angry at him. My first thought driving home was ''how dare he talk to me like that!'' I also thought, ''when has he shown premies gratitude for everything sacrificed for HIM?'' That video was edited.

I think because I had worked in the world, especially my employment as a Personel Director for a large law firm, without any contact with m or premies for 16 years, that I had grown older and wiser...even wiser than I ever thought him to be. Lawyering is so much about words and clear writing. I learned very much from working for and with attorneys, so I was more tuned into the words than some magic I was supposed retrieve from watching m on tv. What is this bullshit I asked myself? Even my husband (poor guy) who I had earlier insisted watch videos fell asleep during them at home. I took him to an intro program. Nothing. He would comment about how simplistic m was said stuff like ''Gee, Cynthia, I always knew a sunset is beautiful, a rose smells wonderful, what is this guy trying to sell?''

I'm grateful that once I got to EPO my doubts were confirmed and validated. I'm especially grateful I never got my husband initiated into the cult.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:38:58 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: All
Subject: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT)
Message:
I just watched Politically Incorrect. The main topic was John Walker, a 20 year-old American Taliban fighter who was captured in Afghanistan. The question was to what extent is he responisible for treason. Although the panel considered his age as a mitigating factor, no one seemed familiar with cults and their influence. In fact, the word cult wasn't even mentioned.

Walker got interested in Islam at 16 and found his way to Pakistan to study, eventually joining the Taliban. This guy had some very bad luck.
[ White Boy Goes Taliban ]

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:11:02 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT)
Message:
Although the panel considered his age as a mitigating factor, no one seemed familiar with cults and their influence. In fact, the word cult wasn't even mentioned.

Walker got interested in Islam at 16 and found his way to Pakistan to study, eventually joining the Taliban. This guy had some very bad luck.

Well Rick, I've been saying for some time that this process isn't all that mysterious to most of us, and that we have an understanding that most of the public, and policy professionals, lack. But every time I make such a statement I get slapped with people who want to emphasize the *differences* between Maharaji's cult, and this or that cult of Islam. In some very important sense a cult is a cult is a cult.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 03:33:52 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT)
Message:
Scott:

You're more connected to people in the know in the DC area than most, or any, of us. Have you ever brought up the cult aspect of the Taliban to the people you know? I'd be curious what their response is. There's a new career path for you...(not that you're looking). ~)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:11:39 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT)
Message:
I've suggested it to a few people, but haven't garnered much interest. The main issue, I think, would be to demonstrate how or why the present paradigm could lead to dangerous misjudgments, or how the cult paradigm might provide more leverage over the problem. Mix cults with nationalism and you've got a serious problem on your hands. And to be honest, Jerrold Post thought of this long before I did, though I'm not above upstaging him if I can think of a powerful tag.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:32:35 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Not totally OT...
Message:
The Taliban always struck me as more akin to a cult than to a state. John Walker could have been one of us at twenty, searching for meaning in life and mistaking fanatical certainty with actual truth.
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:02:29 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: yep,he went whole-hog gung-ho WPC
Message:
yep, that kid went whole-hog gung-ho Taliban WPC -- after being incited by the cult priests. kinda like da 'holy family' inciting Fakiranand, Fletcher, et al to assassinate reporter Halley, or marji's network of faithful minions plotting dat participatory cyber-terrorism against da apostate infidels... to earn their ticket to everlasting salvation.

According to a friend in Marin County's skid row, that's NOT the same Johnnie Walker he's known and loved all these years!

Peace and lentils,

PS btw, we've had several threads already discussing the similarities and parallels of these cults.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:32:05 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 'IT' is coming (not OT)
Message:
No not that 'IT' but the new software.

OK, OK, I thought it would be quicker but I've a large learning curve before I can get my new domain up and running. This will include new software for the forum and lots of server space for anyone who wants it (related to the topic, of course.)

Features include: threaded/non-threaded, framed/non-framed board, configurable chat room with icons, fully configurable look & feel, fully configurable message page, emoticons, forum search engine, close/open thread, intergrated file-upload, spell-checker, block user by IP, bad word filter and auto-ban, user registration, message editing by user, rating, email notification to users, email alerts, request password by email, online user tracker, and many, many more.

Each of these features may be enabled by the administrator independently of the others:

Multi-page threaded or non-threaded message board

Messages are organized in categories

Register and protect your identity with a password

Auto fill-in of your name and e-mail address after you login for each session.

Private discussions between any two registered users.

Chat function allows realtime commuciations between members.

Submit your links to the forums links section.

Once logged in, you do not need to enter your user name again during the session.

The ability to modify your own posts.

The ability to delete your own posts.

The ability to prevent replies to any of your posts

The ability to collapse/expand, close/open your threads.

The ability to send/receive email notifications for new posts.

The ability to upload a file when you post, which is then automatically linked. If a .gif or .jpg image file, it will be displayed automatically as thumbnails, using the iconizer.

Identify new posts easily (by different color)

The ability to use HTML in the message body (HTML will not work in the Subject field).

The ability to add link URLs.

The ability to add image links.

The ability for the message body to be empty, sometimes called NT (No Text) posts.

Posts with an image are so indicated on the main page.

See what's new since your last visit.

You can search message body (CPU intensive) as well as subject field for keywords (Find feature) within a date range.

You can use the Overview feature to read top level posts (without replies)

Easy access to information.Very readable layout. At a glance of the message line, a user knows whether the post is new (coloring), size of the message, whether it has an image link inside, rating of the message (if enabled), number of replies to it, and the number of visits to it (if enabled). One can also collapse or expand the threading.

Modifiable user profiles. Registered users can create and modify their profiles and passwords.

Rate posts or articles and see stars and vote counts next to them. Detects and rejects 'double-rating' on the same page.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Reliability. Forget about crashes, lost data and other problems with other boards. Reliability is the first feature we built into the board.

Security. All aspects of the Board are secure.

Administrative work, such as message board creation and management, are authenticated from the beginning to the end. Unlike some other boards, which can easily be broken into by programmers who read the code, this Board has no security holes.

Fast. Generated html pages are compact and fast to load through highly efficient algorithms and other means.

Easy to install and configure. Just set the paths to perl 5 and the master config directory, everything else is done through the web browser. Even a beginner can have a board up in a few minutes. (ED-huh!)

Builtin multisite search engine. Want a search engine for your web sites? This software can spider them and index them and allow users to search them.

Use pre-configured templates or create your own. We make it easy for you to get started right away by choosing any of our stock settings (ed-- we'll see so far not so good but I'm optimistic :))

Frame / noframe interfaces. Make your choice. Change your mind? Easy to change your board and all messages, even those already posted.

Threading / no threading. Choose if you want messages to be threaded or not on the board.

Highly configurable. It allows you to set the depth of threading, whether text is inlined, number of articles per page, colors, fonts, backgrounds... With over 400 configurable parameters, you can create Internet forums of completely different styles at the click of a button.
Regeneration Board and existing messages can easily and rapidly be regenerated to reflect changed configuration.
Index recovery even after operating system crash.

Powerful and easy to use administrative functions, such as delete or archive by subject, IP address, date or author.
Admin activities are logged with IPs and resolved hostnames.

Forbidden word & name features can prevent posting of unsuitable language and names and automatically ban users who have a predetermined number of violations. Banned user will find it hard to get back in.

Detection and prevention of "posting bombs". E-mail alarm of possible attacks is sent to admin.

Two level administration - administrator and moderator. Administrator has all rights while moderator has those assigned by the administrator. Moderator rights always exclude the ability to configure the message boards.
Pre Moderation. When enabled, messages must be first reviewed and approved by moderator before showing up in the board.

User registration. Users can be required to register and login to post and for other functions.

Email validation on user registration. If enabled, when user registers, an e-mail is sent to user provided e-mail addresses with a unique activation link to activate the account. The user may also need to acknowledge acceptance of the forum rules.

Users will find themselves exposed if they try to assume multiple identities. All names used by a poster are indicated on individual message pages posted by that same person.

Visit counters. The Board can track and display number of visits to a message.

Statistics. Compute and display posting statistics.

Email notification of new messages to a set of e-mail addresses, of responses to orginal posters.

Many more....

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 20:00:23 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: is that it?
Message:
does't cook for ya?
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:48:02 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Sounds Spendeeeeey,
Message:
I don't mind chipping in, You can count on my support Gerry
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 20:15:31 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: Sounds Spendeeeeey,
Message:
I'm a pretty good shopper, Brian ;)
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:36:08 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Lots of bells and whistles
Message:
I hope we can have a transition phase between forums for those of us who freeze up when faced with new bells and whistles.
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:48:05 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: does it come with da Ginzu steak knives?
Message:
yes, that's not all. besides the Vegematic, you'll receive this set of carbonized steel Ginzu knives. Look - see how easily it cuts through a soft tomato!

now, how much would you expect to pay for all this? operators are standing by, and if you call right now, you'll also receive these non-stick pie and cookie pans...

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:27:58 (EST)
From: don
Email: None
To: All
Subject: miami event
Message:
<< Back Continue >>

Contributions beyond the suggested registration amount are welcome and important to the financial success of the event. If you wish to make an additional contribution, please select an amount from the options below. It will be added to your total.
The registration fee is $120.

None Selected
$25 Extra Contribution
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If you requested translation on the previous page, please check-off the Translation Contribution option to contribute $15 toward the cost of providing translation.
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Processing your payment.
This may take up to 60 seconds.

Thank You.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:53:45 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: don
Subject: Translation
Message:
Contributions beyond the suggested registration amount are welcome and important to the financial success of the event.

Contributions beyond the suggested registration amount are welcome and important to the financial success of MAHARJI

(The Event?) Yeah right, has he revised his name again.

To make an event profitable is a no brainer even at the low end donation level.

The way these plays for money are inflated and presented by stressing the importance of meeting and exceeding the suggested donation to insure a successful event is nothing more than a cold hard con.

I wonder if any of the premies in the hall will scan a head count, calculate costs, subtract reasonable expenses, multiply attendance and wonder if it all adds up to a successful event.

Are there any PWK's with mathematic skills still in tact?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:41:37 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: don
Subject: Re: miami event
Message:
I got this Ev email:

In Boulder, Colorado last week, Maharaji spoke about the upcoming event in Miami:

'I think you will have a good time; A lot of people are coming; It is going to be very special. Something old, something new.'

I also got an email with more goodies from Visions. It was such a fancy email all I had to do to buy was click on a goodie.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:44:13 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: virus alert
Message:
Hi. I was just sent 18 53kb virus messages. The attachment was screen saver. Anyone else got these?
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:35:30 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: The 'Pentagone' virus...
Message:
... a.k.a 'gone' or 'goner' virus, disguises itself as a screensaver (scr) file. If it gets opened, it attacks virus scanner, firewall and other security software, by disabling it then deleting the files that hold them. I just read about it on C-NET, it's the latest one. :|
[ The Goner Virus/Worm info... ]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:46:36 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: virus alert
Message:
Abi,

We've all had these recently, although 18 in one go seems a bit high. If it's the same one (called badtrans), you are at risk if you have IE v5.01 or 5.5 because it can infect your PC without you opening any attachment. If you have either of these versions, Microsoft have a patch that fixes the loophole. If you haven't got either of those versions, then you should be safe as long you follow the usual safety guidelines of not opening attachments you are unsure of.

John.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:32:25 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: It ain't Badtrans, John
Message:
Here's the low-down from http://www.guardian.co.uk/internetnews/story/0,7369,612471,00.html

Latest computer virus is a Goner

Sarah Left
Wednesday December 5, 2001

After battling through the Badtrans worm
last week, computer users are being hit
today by yet another email virus, this one
called Goner.

Experts described Goner as one of the
fastest-spreading viruses they had seen to
date. It is, however, simple to spot and if
users delete the email their computers will
not be infected.

The infected email has the word 'Hi' as
its subject line and the body text reads,
'How are you? When I saw this screen
saver, I immediately thought about you. I
am in a harry (sic), I promise you will love
it.' Its attachment poses as a screensaver
and is labelled 'gone.scr'.

Unlike more complex worms, such as last
week's Badtrans which is still doing the
rounds, the subject line, attachment and
message of Goner do not vary. When
users double click on the attachment, the
infected email spreads itself to all
contacts in a Microsoft Outlook address
book.

Anti-virus companies have issued updates
to block Goner, though users can also
protect themselves simply by hitting the
delete button.

Alex Shipp, spokesman for anti-virus
service MessageLabs, said: 'It's
spreading with tremendous speed and
thousands of users in Britain have already
been sent it. The virus mass mails itself
out through email and attempts to destroy
anti-virus software on computers, which
could prove extremely problematic for
those unfortunate enough to receive it.'

Goner was first detected yesterday
morning, and experts believe it was
created in Europe. The US, the UK and
France are the worst hit of the 17
countries affected so far.

Mr Shipp said: 'We had a handful of
reports this morning but at mid-afternoon
in the UK it went mad. We have had about
30,000 reports and the figure is rising.'

Graham Cluley, senior technology
consultant for Sophos Anti-Virus, said:
'This worm highlights the importance of
being suspicious about anything that
arrives unexpectedly in your inbox ... Even
if the email appears to have come from a
friend it still should not be automatically
trusted.'

A criminal investigation has now been
launched in an effort to track down the
person responsible for the virus.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:45:59 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You're probably right
Message:
I don't bother telling anyone about viruses as I assume people don't open attachments that they are unsure of, and if they are foolish enough to do so do, then that's their hard luck. Badtrans is different because it could affect normally careful users, so was worth publicising. All the badtrans emails I've received are consistently 40k so Abi's 53k emails are probably this goner virus.

John.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:45:24 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: yes, it's the goner virus right
Message:
thanks for letting me know. Amazing to get 18 of them though!
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:25:06 (EST)
From: John Macgregor
Email: johnmac@turboweb.net.au
To: All
Subject: JSCA
Message:
Just Some Cool Afterthoughts.

There’ve been some emails and responses and developments. So - some comments on: trolls, Lovejoy, neurotheology, crusades:

1. Trolls:

I hope this is not too outspoken for a new boy.

I shared my thoughts on trolls with JHB recently, and he asked me to post them here. The below may not be relevant in the new password era. But given the damage I feel trolls have done, and how persistent infestations are, I wanted to add my voice to the general climate of ‘troll protection’, in the hope that it persists...

CW (who, if I’m not mistaken, I’ve known all my adult life), is highly intelligent, not stupid. There's no way he would be posting the stuff he does, and believing it to be true. He's putting it there not to initiate intelligent debate or to air facts, but to drive ex-premies collectively nuts. He has been succeeding. We rose to the bait like hungry fish. We bought into the melodrama every time, and in the midst of that we lost the thread of our discussions - just as he intended us to.

I hope we stick to our guns in keeping the trolls out. If there’s a public meeting which a whole crowd is enjoying, and one person in the crowd starts screaming obscenities, he is escorted to the door. Not beaten up, not screamed at in return - just politely shown the way out. Freedom of speech is highly valued in Western societies, but it’s never been an absolute.

Repeatedly issues have been forgotten and threads side-tracked. The trolls have successfully disrupted this forum for a long time. This was their goal, and they succeeded. We were putty in the trolls’ hands. IMO the forum has been significantly damaged by them.

You can see it by just scanning the subject lines of the threads in the archives. As soon as an issue gathers some momentum - especially one with the capacity to make premies think - there is a troll attack, and the debate gets derailed. All is forgotten in a hail of verbal bullets, point-scoring and acrimony. A life-changing process gets changed into a childish game.

Forum: 0
Maharaji: 1

And this is life-changing stuff we’re talking about here. (I speak from experience: my life has recently been changed by it.) I do believe that premies and exes alike should be encouraged to read the forum, and to post - and that premies should be respected, and never attacked personally. But good faith is required by all posters.

CW would have to be an idiot to believe most of what he has written: believe me, he doesn’t. The content of the trolls’ posts mattered to us. It didn’t much matter to them. The strategy was what counted, and the posts were just a relatively inconsequential means to an end. Dropping in regular verbal hand grenades was a well-thought-out technique for disrupting the forum. It worked brilliantly, because we fell for it hook, line and sinker, week after week.

It didn’t just throw the exes off the rails. As a secondary benefit, curious premies checking in here have been repelled time and again by the acrimony and drama. (I was one of them in 1997. I’ve talked to others this week.) The third aspect of the strategy was to dissuade people from posting, with defamatory attacks. Maybe this has worked too: I know an awful lot of exes who lurk here but don’t post. Many would have a lot to contribute.

But the main game was disruption and distraction. And because of the ease with which he was able to exploit our love of drama, in my opinion CW won. We may have won each individual battle with him - but on his part, that was planned attrition. He won the war.

It was an electronic rope-a-dope strategy par excellence. Again and again, he drew us in, wore us out, and took our focus away from the main game.

I may not think this was very ethical or honest, but tactically he deserves full credit for pulling it off.

It’s too late to undo that damage. But I hope CW, and those like him, don’t get a chance to perpetrate it again.

In my final years as a premie, M went on quite a bit about gratitude. I felt increasingly little of it. But I do feel genuine, deep gratitude for being able to be here: gratitude to all of you, and to EPO’s founders, who have performed a public service of extraordinary magnitude.

This is something Rich Mandrake posted here in September:

'What I Found is EX-PREMIE.ORG...God Bless You, Forever!!!...For the Next Days even weeks..I found myself Devouring the Pages and Posts of Mishler, Dettmers, Donners et Al...And as I Digested the Material, I FINALLY had the pieces of the Puzzle that had been missing, LO these MANY YEARS...I had the information to Deprogram myself ..from a belief ..that absent this website..I might have carried with me to My Grave...so THANK YOU AGAIN....those of you who have put up and supported this information....I am Grateful to You...your Courage and your HONESTY...in truthfully portraying and exposing the one who apparently so sadly is lacking in those qualities...'

That’s what I call gratitude. Maybe those of you who have been ‘out’ for a while can’t appreciate the magnitude of it. But I can, as can my cohort of recent exes, and those I know who are leaving as we speak, and it’s big stuff, and this place has often been like a lifeline for us, and they, and I, would hate for it to be sidetracked again by an addiction to drama.

2. Lovejoy:

I didn’t answer Mr Lovejoy’s November 11 attack, because rather than magnify it into a public brawl I wanted to pursue it with him privately - which we did by email for about a fortnight.

I should first point out, to those who asked, that I have written for David’s paper only occasionally, as a favour, and generally gratis. My employers are the metropolitan dailies. So David’s defamation won’t affect my livelihood.

I had no objection to David’s criticising me for what I said about M and EV. Dealing with these criticisms is something of a no-brainer, IMO, and we’re all familiar with the arguments each way - and for those reasons I don’t want to go into them all again here. (Tho I thank those who defended me at the time!)

However the personal attacks on me were unfair - to say nothing of untrue - and I wanted David to apologise for them.

I pointed out to David that his blistering opinion of my poor political acumen came just after his newspaper (and others nationwide) ran stories on my winning a national journalism award, for a year-long series of political articles; that he could have determined whether I was ‘on the verge of a nervous breakdown’ by talking to me; that my ‘boastfulness’ about political/FBI connections was (as David well knew) to forestall any CAC defamation, and that I’m not an habitual boaster; and that his dragging my family affairs into the public gaze was unethical.

IMO David didn’t honestly address these problems in his reply. I pointed this out. David discussed the matter with his 30-year friend Glen Whittaker. Glen then intervened on David’s behalf, and immediately raised the possibility of an apology for the personal attacks. However Glen said it could not be made on the forum, because that would dignify the forum in a way it didn’t merit. Glen suggested that once David had apologised to me, I could convey this news to the forum. I pointed out that the forum was considered good enough for the original attack - and therefore it was good enough for the apology. But to no avail.

Glen was always extremely civil. We pursued the apology idea (and several other ideas) for a while, then stalemated on the forum issue.

Then came a final email from David - IMO even more bellicose than his original - which reversed course: the apology was now off the agenda. At this point I judged the discussion a lost cause.

Having an unblemished 28-year friendship terminated over the Internet - without any prior personal contact - is one of the more surreal experiences of my Knowledge-exiting saga.

3. Neurotheology:

[Skip straight to item 4 if you’re not into this intellectual stuff.]

Re my God-in-the-brain story...

Jim said:

“I can't see how any of this is good for the belief in God. It doesn't get rid of him entirely but, like so much else in science, it sure pushes him back even further into the shadows.”

Hamzen said:

“Think you've been infected unconsciously by mr rawat though.
A large percentage of those who went on the eastern route
completely reject the god concept. Buddhists, taoists - the shamanic route doesn't really have much truck with that either.”

Nigel said:

“Like Jim, I would be slightly inclined to take issue with Prof
Wulff's assertion that 'Logically, I do not see how neurophysiology or neuropsychology can tell us anything about the reality or nature of the divine...'

Agree with all of that.

Except my ‘Rawat infection’ of course. I was posting a newspaper article I’d written. Because of the (admittedly often idiotic) journalistic principles of objectivity and ‘balance’, I’m unable in such pieces to give free rein to my own opinions. For the most part I just report what the sources say.

Personally I have no belief in anything resembling a God - nor either in the ideas of self, transcendence, realisation, enlightenment, etc that arise from the (non-Hindu) eastern routes - except as abstractions of neurological activity: as are the various branches of modern psychology.

I’m not against others ‘constructing’ things in religious ways of course, just as I’m not against the more modern models of psychology. Indeed when you take neurology to a certain level of organisation, psychology may be a better way of describing it.

Like Nigel, I think we need to remember Occam’s Razor (a.k.a. the ‘principle of parsimony’), and go for the sparest, simplest explanation - the shortest route. I, too, was bothered by some of my interviewees’ assertions that their work ‘doesn’t disprove God’. (It doesn’t exactly bolster his case either - so why mention him?)

My thoughts are best-expressed in my last email to Dr Wulff:

“In the absence of evidence, why would we in the first place posit that something like God may exist, when we do not make such positings in relation to (for example) planets made of cheese?”

He answered:

“Undoubtedly the assurance that brain research doesn't invalidate religious convictions is to a degree a public-relations measure. Yet it is also a reasonable assertion, as I noted earlier. But such research also doesn't validate them as far as I can see. That we posit gods but not planets made of cheese doesn't seem so surprising, given that cheese planets would serve no immediate human needs whereas the gods work
overtime in service to humankind. Furthermore, by conceiving of gods in human form we make them to some degree comprehensible and approachable for our special pleadings. Understandably, in the process we use templates developed in other spheres of our lives, including the family and the social or political unit. As various commentators have pointed out, some of the gestures that accompany prayer are akin to those that a child might use in reaching up to a parent for protection and consolation; others
suggest secular forms of greeting or paying respect. If there is a 'God spot,' as Morse and perhaps others claim, the development of god images and of modes of relationship to divinity draws on many other areas of the brain--areas that are activated during ordinary secular activity.“

The ‘PR’ bit was honest - I pretty much have to do the same thing as a journalist. The ‘serving human needs’ bit is obviously true, but it wasn’t really my question. My question was not whether God/the gods have served human needs, but whether they exist. And clearly ‘neurotheology’ has largely demolished the most popular argument for their existence of the last 30 years - namely the experiential one.

Anyway, that leads me to wonder if there are any sensible arguments for God’s existence left. I sure hope so, because I’d miss the old bastard if he left us altogether: the pro-con argument somehow keeps us on our toes. I’m actually very open to the possibility of God - just as I was in 1971 - tho he would want to be a subtler, better and more useful model than the God of the Flat Line invoked by Rawat and Sons.

Anyone?

4. The Crusades:

My posts have created lots of pain and drawn lots of anger from my premie friends. That’s pretty understandable: I was sorely vexed myself when I began learning uncomfortable things about Maharaji.

The ostrich reflex is a strong one - I’ve seen it everywhere in recent weeks. Equally strong - tho less common - is the messenger-shooting reflex. I had to fight that one down for weeks when I began learning this stuff. Whilst a couple of premies have visited me to discuss the posts, express their hurt, and hear my side - for which I much admire them - there have also been some angry contacts condemning what I wrote. These people have acted, they said, out of the concern they have for Maharaji’s feelings.

Not a single premie to date, however, has enquired after the welfare of the rape victims, or the blondes - or for that matter asked after me, in this tricky time of transition. I don’t resent this, because as a premie I was exactly the same when my friends left. But it’s an interesting phenomenon to note.

Among the ‘displeased’ who’ve made contact, there have been four grounds of criticism:

• Firstly, that my facts are wrong. No, they weren’t. What I wrote I obtained from sources (often more than one) I regard as very reliable, or from the evidence of my own eyes. On a couple of occasions I got smallish things wrong, or an earlier account was disputed - and I retracted or modified my statements, and/or apologised. The practice will continue.

• Secondly, that stuff about M’s private life should not be aired publicly - simply because he is a human being who deserves his privacy. There is great value in this principle: I was certainly unhappy (for instance) when Mr L discussed my family here. However much of what I said about M was already public knowledge. (For example I don’t think Monica is any secret, to either premies or ex-premies.)

Among those things which were not public knowledge, most of the matters I raised had at least the potential to prevent harm to other people. This is an important criterion which on many occasions over-rides the right to privacy. I’m sure earlier posters faced a similar ethical dilemma when writing about (for example) the blondes. No-one wants to be labelled a muck-raker. But behaviours such as this have direct effects: on the victims, of course - but also on those around M who are influenced by his jettisoning of human decency. (Amongst PAMs, this ‘ripple effect’ is very real.)

The matters I raised (e.g. the great premie-mail scandal) may not be in the same league as the blondes, but I believe the same principle applies.

My conscience is still wrestling with the fact that I briefly mentioned one of M’s daughters. Public interest - or nobody’s damn business? I’m leaning to the latter at present - the matter had little impact on anyone outside the family - and may duly apologise to the Rawats for that one, for what it’s worth at this late stage.

But on most occasions, I think there are potential harms that can be prevented by these disclosures, and thus the publish-and-be-damned principle applies. Just as learning about the blondes - for instance - may down the track save some premie woman from being abused in the same way, learning that there are sexually abusive instructors may contribute to saving someone from them.

NB: A premie friend contacted me in great annoyance about the instructor claims. I promised to clarify that it does not, so far as I know, apply to the majority of instructors overall.

• Thirdly, that I’m on a crusade. Here I usually pointed out that I had written three posts (and maybe a dozen brief responses) on an Internet bulletin board. I’ve not emailed a single post to anyone else, so far as I remember. Nor - tho I’m aware it’s happened, and have no problem with it - have I requested my posts to be circulated or published elsewhere. That may make me an infidel, but not, I think, a crusader.

• Fourthly, that I am a hypocrite - that is, that I too did bad things in my time as a premie.

The ‘bad things’ are undeniable. I was an organiser for many years, a less than exemplary, and therefore hypocritical, ashram premie (for example as a community co-ordinator I neither practised nor enforced the celibacy rule), and a donor to both Maharaji and EV. I helped to convince quite a few people to join DLM. I bear considerable responsibility for many things, including sometimes not being considerate of the feelings of others, which in our volatile context may have been the worst thing of all.

It would be far too convenient to blame Maharaji for all of this. Indeed I strongly dislike the tendency to blame Maharaji for everything. Devotion was a contract, and I was a willing, adult party to it. And organisationally, the Nuremberg defence holds even less water in my case than it did at Nuremberg.

I should add, tho - and with any luck I’m speaking for all of us - that I did not announce before a million people at India Gate, Delhi, that I was the Lord of Creation, in the full expectation that I would be believed by at least 968,479 of them. Neither did I bill myself, before a crowd at Amaroo in 1994, as “the Perfect Master” of the age.

And nor I did not confirm before 700 devoted Westerners (and 60,000 devoted Indians) in Delhi in November, 1997, that I was the incarnation of Lord Krishna - that is, the human manifestation of God. Indeed I did not even make such claims at parties, privately to my friends, or - to the best of my recollection - at the end of long evenings in public drinking establishments.

I did not, finally, ask so much as a single person to surrender the reins of his - or her - life to me, and would no doubt have been jeered, roundly clobbered or locked away had I tried. Nor did I make such importunities in public places to complete strangers, as Maharaji has done - with a veritable phalanx of hand-picked, very persuasive and (significantly) older ‘saints’ to reinforce the suggestion, both on the spot and, over an entire decade, around the globe.

Thus I humbly feel that, whilst we must scrupulously acknowledge our roles in perpetrating the abuses and the myths surrounding Maharaji, he was the ultimate generator of those abuses and myths, their most indefatigable sustainer, and indeed - to the tune of about fifty million US dollars - their chief beneficiary.

Best wishes to all,

John

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:10:31 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: JSCA
Message:
John I don't care to much about Trolls, but I liked the children book I read about them.I hope you feel better about Lovejoy, thanks for your posts and the ones from the other exes.
About Neurotheology I think that,if weren't for our mind we probably would not be having 'the experience' that we could be having during meditation or contemplation, being our brain the vehicle (among other things) that possibly something or someone has created in order to be able to manifest itself to us, and our mind the one to acknowledge it. So if the guru can be called greater than God because he reveals God, we may call mind greater than the experience of God or K since without it, we wouldn't be able to acknowledge the experience. And greater than guru because guru in order to be greater than God needs to prove that there is a real experience that reveals God, and our minds perception of the experience makes it possible, as the perception of the pie made the pie real for us. So in being greater than Guru, mind will also be greater than God.
Under the possibility that this ability to 'experience' could have something to do with our genes I may be counted among the lucky ones who inherited it. Remember the not so lucky ones, that electricity may help, but forget about the-not so good for your health-stuff.

I can't meditate now, I wish I could. But when I close my eyes I can still see the light, and in the morning when I wake up sometimes I can hear the music.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 02:48:46 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Besides posting here
Message:
Besides posting here and giving coverted information:
Are you able or do you intend to undo some of the damage you inflicted on people? Michael Dettmers and Joan Ampter feel themselves absolved from any evil. What is your stance on this? Any remorse?

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:30:23 (EST)
From: J McG
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: remorse etc
Message:
Any remorse? Plenty. So far I'm posting here, helping numerous others exit, and saying sorry a lot. I don't want to buy a hair shirt and begin flagellating myself - nevertheless all suggestions welcome.

J

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:21:18 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: J McG
Subject: How about stones in your shoes?;)
Message:
One fruitcake with whom I lived in a monastery (RC) used to put stones in his shoes as penance. Unfortunately we were the ones who really did the penance because it made his feet sweat and stink something terrible and when he took his shoes off we all suffered.

But seriously, you know you don't have anything to atone for. Tonette was feeling very emotional and hurt last night. I think she forgot that we were all duped and stuck in a cult.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 04:51:39 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: the thing is it is much easier
Message:
to get them introduced into the cult than it is to help them get out once they have been hooked Tonette. That is the fully indoctrinated ones anyway, I still have an ex brother in law in the cult, I took him and my sister to their first satsang in 72, shes out though.

Many of the people that I brought around had sense enough to leave on their own long ago. However, I did have the occasion just yesterday to meet with of the last people that I had influenced and brought to events, he came over to talk still considering himself to be an aspirant.

He arrived and I was on the forum, and he was wavering on the fence with this thing. I did not say anything to him about what he should or should't do, I simply showed him the EPO site and he looked over some of the comments and posts by the ex's here on 7 for a while.

It was quite the eye opener for him. In addition to that he was particularly amused and amazed when I showed him the Guru shopping mall list. The one Marianne posted the link to the other day, BTW, thanks for that little Gem Marianne.

He had no idea that there was so much competition in the cult business, M's bro Satpal's site really shocked him as well, let the facts speak for themselves.

Anyway, he now has an altogether different perspective on what is going on as opposed to the one sided story he got from the cult members, he assured me he won't be going back and he will not pursue m and the cult any further.

Yes it is possible to set the record straight for myself, and it is great when you help someone else wake up. But to even expect others to follow suit is not a healthy way for me to live my life as an ex. Some will, some won't and apart from my own personal amends the rest of it is out of my hands.

No, I do not hound my old practicing premie friend's with my new outlook. For those that are still deeply imbedded I respect their space, for those that will ask questions, I give honest answers on where I stand today and directions to where they can find out more if they are interested.

Mostly though premies are not really interested in knowing about my experience now as an ex. It scares the hell out of them to see a happy, well adjusted and prosperous former cult member not rotting in a compost pile.

Being completely whole, happy and free without M and the cult I think is one of the biggest amends we can make to ourselves, our families, our friends and one of the best statements we can make to other premies as well.

Brian the escaped convert

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 20:13:14 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: JSCA
Message:
Hello, John, glad to see you're surviving pariahdom, though forced to seek refuge in debauched coffee houses with the demimonde of disbelief.

Just a few thoughts on your thoughts (or as our old mate M Gautama used to say, 'I didn't think eet, eet just came to me'):

1. Trolls:

I'm still not convinced CW is who you think it is, though I haven't sought out the ISPs. The writing style is not fluid enough or bright enough, though obviously he has his brain in neutral at the time. The Melbourne legal connection seems more likely.

The bait and the fish analogy is quite fitting. I know I'm tempted to engage just for the hell of it. It's certainly not unusual to have user registration as a reaction to flaming. Only last week SBS [local TV station] had to pull down its Movie Show forum because of flamers and re-institute it with passwords.

'…premies should be respected, and never attacked personally. But good faith is required by all posters.' It is a position devoutly to be wished but hardly one that applies in most situations. In all the committee and council meetings I've been to, there's usually at least one fly in the ointment.

2. Lovejoy:

This is the saddest part of all in the debate which is not being entered into. Your description of the proceedings sounds accurate, though I don't know if I'd describe David's final post to you as 'bellicose'. I agree with you that you have grounds for an apology - David was quite capable of making a robust and thorough reply without bringing in your family or his melodramatic description of your mental state, a piece of amateur psychoanalysis without foundation. The suggestion that it was 'tongue in cheek' strikes me as Glen searching for a diplomatic 'out' for the sake of everyone's honour. My seconds will meet your seconds for instruction at the Poinciana.

I will miss your contributions to the paper, especially this big holiday issue. I hope some time in the future there will be an opportunity for rapprochement.

3. Neurotheology:

Very interesting debate, and thanks to everyone for their contributions. In my opinion the jury is unlikely ever to reach a verdict - not enough evidence, and not enough perspective. Even the full-blown subjective experience of the sea etcetera flowing in your veins (you can always spot an old hippie, can't you, with a dip of the lid to Thomas Traherne) could be just a trick of the optic nerve or that old injury to the temporal lobe acquired in the Acid Wars of 67-68 acting up, though I agree it doesn't rob the revelation of personal worth and wonder.

'Anyway, that leads me to wonder if there are any sensible arguments for God’s existence left. I sure hope so, because I’d miss the old bastard if he left us altogether: the pro-con argument somehow keeps us on our toes. I’m actually very open to the possibility of God - just as I was in 1971 - tho he would want to be a subtler, better and more useful model than the God of the Flat Line invoked by Rawat and Sons.' You primates are a romantic lot, it's been all downhill since that flood of adrenalin at the moment of birth and the subsequent discovery of mother's milk.

4. The Crusades:

The notion that you're on a campaign or a crusade is easily raised when your posts are taken out of context, eg, circulated by email among premies, rather than seen as small (though significant, John) motes afloat in vast sea of text on an internet bulletin board. A real campaign by you would involve a couple of articles in the Australian and American press, and an approach to TV commentators. I rather see it as you re-inventing your universe from the ground up and sharing your discoveries on the way. Some of them are unpleasant.

And how dare you compare your moral transgressions with the divine life of Mr Rawat? Bad premie, naughty premie, very bad premie.

Best wishes, John,

McDuck

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:48:43 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Hey, Michael
Message:
Are we going to hear your story? Premie history? When, why you left, etc.? I, for one, would love to hear it.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:58:07 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Hey, Michael
Message:
Thanks for your interest, Joe. I think most of it was posted back there on Forum V. Here's an abridged version, some of which seems dated now. I seem to be constantly revising my position in relation to life, the universe and everything:

I received Knowledge in 1973 from Padarthanand in Adelaide, Australia. That's 27 years of being more or less faithful to the cause before the knots began to unravel. I gave K a fair go, I kept in touch, and I never, ever revealed the techniques.
In the days when aspirants got to do some interesting service, I spray-painted the insides of a three storey building in Sydney. After receiving K, I was instrumental in the production of The Golden Age, the Australian premie magazine.
In 1975 I was called to Denver, Colorado, to join the writers' team. What a wonderful collection of eccentrics! I hope they're all still alive and well and having fun. It was the time of the demolition of the empire known as IHQ. Denver fell apart and I was the last writer left in town. Simultaneously I laid out and edited Divine Times and And It Is Divine – burnoutville. When I left to return to Australia – because Maharaji wanted all fulltime service dudes to be in the ashram, the ashram he shortly after dissolved – the publications were left in the hands of Cliff Bowden.

I returned to Australia and for a short while edited The Golden Age as a paid employee. It felt weird taking money so I quit and got a job in public relations, where money is the only meaningful currency. In 1980 my wife and I moved to Tasmania where I lived until my divorce in 1988. I then returned to New South Wales and became a journalist, which I have been ever since. Apart from donating money, my role in Elan Vital was minimal until 1999, when I was 'recruited' to the PR team because of my professional expertise. I spent a good deal of time contributing to press kits and website FAQs, which have always been diluted by political correctness, and some time writing historical pieces for a website - intended as an intelligent counter to ex-premie.org - which seems never to have materialised. I found the PR guys excellent to work with and I wish them all long and happy lives, but perhaps promoting a product which has fewer anomalies and moral dilemmas attached to it.

I was happily indifferent to the ashrams closing and believed you should learn to stand on your own two feet in the big world (that was partly the point of K, yeah?) I've enjoyed the practice of K and M's charisma (but not his bad poetry) and have only drawn away and joined the Cult of the Apostate in the last few months. [that's back in early 2001]
My apostasy is a triumph of logic and common sense over instilled belief. It was triggered by the arguments of good friends who had drawn away from M and my own analysis of my own beliefs. Any allegations, true or otherwise, about M's or EV's bad behaviour had nothing to do with it, though the sincerity of those making allegations on this site has set me thinking. Following are some of the bases for my apostasy, which are not unique:
1. M is not the 'superior power in person', at least no more or less than you and I. He is a charismatic figure whose charisma is reinforced by the devotion showered upon him, and an adherent of a teacher/student tradition.
2. EV is an organisation which, despite its PR image, acts as if M is the 'superior power in person'. That is, it is a cult (an ISCL has admitted as much to me.) I do not wish to belong to a cult.
3. The tools and experience of K are not unique to M. The experience is inherently within you and may be reached by a number of means (brain science is a big eye-opener in this regard). This is my experience, not my belief, and the richness of my life has not diminished despite my apostasy. Being just a human being suits me fine.
4. EV is beset by a paralysis caused by its ambivalent/deceitful presentation of M and K. Publicly, M's just a guy with a few techniques; privately, people sing arti to him. The official PR explanations are expected to be followed by those 'in synch'. There is no room for a range of opinions to be expressed to the media, from 'He's an okay guy' to 'I think he's the lord of the universe!' Natural poetry has been suppressed in favour of blandness.
5. The difference between 'the mind' and 'the heart' is just an arbitrary 'line drawn in the sand', as a friend said recently. They are not different places to live, as M seems to insist, but simply facile definitions by which we categorise parts of our experience of being alive.

IN CONCLUSION
Once you've got beyond the idea that M is the 'superior power in person', his less endearing character traits are not tolerable because he is not acting out some divine purpose in expressing them. Your guiding star shifts from being a person outside you to simply your own inner strength. Isn't this what M wants you to know? As Terence McKenna once said, 'Pay attention, and keep breathing.'

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 22:08:02 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Counter EPO Website
Message:
and some time writing historical pieces for a website - intended as an intelligent counter to ex-premie.org - which seems never to have materialised

Interesting. Please tell us more.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 22:30:04 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Re: Counter EPO Website
Message:
I was writing historical overviews of each decade since the 1950s - and I mean the larger world, not Mr Rawat's milieu - which would be presented as a backdrop to the phenomenon of Mr Rawat. I portrayed the last half of the last century as a rollercoaster ride, and it certainly is if you have a bit of a look at it.

Others were writing on the Rawat phenomenon itself. Some of the articles made critical judgements. It was all reasonably intelligent, which is maybe why the website never emerged. Maybe it-aint-so was the preferred option but I don't know for sure as I'd left PR by the time I got to the 80s in my overview. I haven't kept any of the material; I'm not a sentimental historian like Richard, who even has a picture of a Millennium Bar!

Most of these efforts had to do the rounds of national contacts and other important people as well as the PR team, and the strength of the language was gradually diluted into bureaucratese. It's a wonder those FAQs on the websites ever appeared at all!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 00:30:52 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: romantic Primate John
Message:
Well, that is what Mc Duck is calling you!

Great post and thank you for posting here.
You also said this:
'Anyway, that leads me to wonder if there are any sensible arguments for God’s existence left'
The only evidence I see that might qualify as a 'sensible argument'
is the boundries we are bound by.
If it was a DNA- conciousness sprang from matter-materialist world,
there would be at least one person that could get around our boundries. Also, there is no DNA reason for the boundries that I am referring too.

If like the buddhists and a certain guru of ours thinks, that there is no concious god, just maybe a rep. of the 'oneness' like m or the dali lama or the like, Then also there would be no boundries of the sort that I am referring too. And no one capable of installing the boundries on us ALL. With no exeptions.

boundries such as
no one can go from success to success to success
no one can avoid problems
no one can control thier experience
no one can (there are more, but I cant remember at the moment)
These boundries might look like nothing remarkable or worth considering, but I say that right there you have the proof of a concious god thingee.
Dont want to bother elaborateing tonight, but ask anyone who thinks
there is no evidence of a concious boundry maker to explain away
the boundries, I cant do it!
I am not saying this backs up anyones other ideas about god, but it sure does not back up anyones ideas that there is no concious thing that we have to contend with. There are boundries on this field of life we all run into, those boundries say a lot.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:22:30 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: JSCA
Message:
JSCA about your post. Which, BTW, I really appreciate.

Regarding Trolls:

Gee, I couldn't agree more with any of your comments or suggestions. Jim said, and I paraphrase, that it seemed to be part of a percieved, my emphasis, process to encourage open discussion. This process, as he agrees, requires restructuring, which is now long overdue. Most of us are not equipped nor disciplined enough to avoid the post all together. Nevertheless, as you say, the mere fact that the words even sit which such appalling vulgarity is damaging. Worse, they engage posters all the way down the page and discourage or occupy all the time of visitors. Mission accomplished. I also do not believe that trolls have any intent to participate but are unfortunately awkward with their land legs. Years of similar posts prove otherwise. YES! There posts are completely strategic. Just ask Pat how many emails we shared over this topic.

Regarding Lovejoy.

Well read what Barbara had to say about that. Got to love it. He's yesterday's newspaper (pun intended) to me.

Regarding Neorotheology:

I would love to hear more. More discussions on this is a good idea. It takes away from all conversations being Maha-centric and provides food for thought for readers. I think this will be a nice balance for the process of purging Maha. One of the biggest fears for premies is to be stripped of their worldly procession, that being their whole adult life commitment to Maha and the notion of Knowledge. Would you be willing to write more?

Regarding crusades:

Secondly, that stuff about M's private life should not be aired publicly - simply because he is a human being who deserves his privacy.

John, people at the program in SF were slobbering all over him calling him 'My Lord'. The premie apologists have continuously argued that the Lord stuff was was a label cross-culturally assigned by Mahatmas.

Now, the 'devotional sappy satsang' has come back full force and the premies who repressed the 'Maha as Lord reality' have re-surfaced. Premies are devoted to a stage persona that is carefully executed.
And, as we know, withheld information is the cult leader's sceptor. Therefore, IMO, 'Maha is just a human being who deserves his privacy' is ruled out. Cult leaders insist on their privacy remaining that way because it's bad for cult recruit and continued worship. DUH!

My conscience is still wrestling with the fact that I briefly mentioned one of M's daughters.Public interest - or nobody's damn business? I’m leaning to the latter at present - the matter had little impact on anyone outside the family -

Oh John, sorry, I'm not on this one with you, at all. I don't need any of that shit from premies. His children live high off the hog, drive 40, 000 cars, get $2 M restaurants, all from the donations of premies who give give give to insure events go well. They have lived and continue to live and travel while enslaving innocent victims to serve them hand and foot. They draw extremely unworthy salaries in the effort to conspire w/their father to perpetuate this cult. They are born and raised in America and know right from wrong. They know something must be very very wrong with the whole picture. And, if they don't, we owe it to them and unsuspecting society to teach them. The Rugurats are cult-leaders-in-training. It's Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.

And Abi is Mr. Bray's daughter. Does that stop Maha from hiring his goons to manage her. NO!! Abi is fair play for Maha, regardless of how much pain she has endured by his hands and especially the hands of his demonic Mahatma, Jagdeo. What about the other daughters that were sexually abused by Mahatmas and Maha himself. Please John, think that through a little more. Or at least support us who will challenge any and all Rawats.

It would be far too convenient to blame Maharaji for all of this. Indeed I strongly dislike the tendency to blame Maharaji for everything. Devotion was a contract, and I was a willing, adult
party to it.

Don't agree at all. Cult indoctrination is a very precisely calculated indoctrination that breaks down critical thinking and substitutes the process with group think. Destructive cults, as this article says uses them to recruit. It, if anything, is made to look like your personal choice, but that's a fallacy. Give it a go, will you. Perhaps, you can give us some feedback on the essay.

Take care, I enjoyed your post, but now I'll never get my essay done. I'm writing about the Russian movie, 'The Inner Circle'. My essay is called: The Inner Circle: Personality Cults and Cult Personalities. It's a very good movie. We should recommend it on the EPO pages.
[ Cults: Public perceptions vs. Researc ]

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:46:35 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: A sensible argument for God's existence
Message:
John, that was a great read. Firstly may I say thanks for that excellent exposition of the 'CW Strategy' and the warmth and strength with which you delineated what the forum can mean for people who are not playing games with it.

And I feel sad about David, I hope he eventually turns around and deals with his mistake.

But, yes, Lesley who decided to tell herself what her belief in God was, and once she started, had to accept there was no more substance in it than there was to the story about Mr Claus and his chimney pot visits; and at that point, after a short reflection decided that if God DID exist, he was a callous ugly bastard I didn't want to know; and gratefully (to myself and those who shared their own reflections and in the doing helped me come to the point), happily, even if there was a tremble of uncertainty in stepping out into a brave new world, gave up once and for all the worshipping game; cementing the step by giving up the worshipping of life itself, energy, whatever you name it, I don't worship it.

Yes, this selfsame Lesley has had a revelation, I came face to face with God, I knew him, I knew his purpose, he exists.

My revelation took place at a football game, well, on the sofa watching a Rugby League game between Australia and France. Australia got done by the ref, not seriously, however it was clear to see that now GOD WAS ON THEIR SIDE, and they played like that, and clearly doubt had entered into the minds of the French team. Then, against the play, a Frenchman showed some serious good form and in a gallant move, almost scored a try, and it was clear again, GOD IS BACK TO IMPARTIAL NOW.

Yes folks, I saw god, and I knew his purpose, the same one that helps a flock of birds to turn in the sky.

However, I shall not be praying to him, I think it is an extreme foolishness to do so, and furthermore, that worship, that praying must, imo, be considered as one of the major factors contributing to the schizophrenic 'master/slave' dynamic that plays on through the history of mankind.

PS, I am still in recovery, I am an ex-god worshipper, so I am still a bit allergic to god worshippers, please be kind.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 21:11:38 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Re: A sensible argument for God's existence
Message:
I respect your right not to worship god, and love you just the way you are.

McD

'Malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to Man.'

- A E Housman

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:16:52 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: lol, and it rhymes
Message:
Thank you Michael, you understand me well. Much love, Lesley
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:59:27 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: You have a very clear understanding...
Message:
... of the trolls, and what they have been doing here. Just by getting us to stop talking about Maharaji and talk about them, by getting us going in cirlces fighting with them, and arguing with eachother, they succeed.

That discussion you had with Lovejoy and Whittaker was very telling:

...Glen then intervened on David’s behalf, and immediately raised the possibility of an apology for the personal attacks. However Glen said it could not be made on the forum, because that would dignify the forum in a way it didn’t merit. Glen suggested that once David had apologised to me, I could convey this news to the forum. I pointed out that the forum was considered good enough for the original attack - and therefore it was good enough for the apology. But to no avail.

It just fits in so well with what the trolls try to accomplish here; making the forum chaotic and undignified, to prevent discussion and damage our credibility, without actually addressing the issues being discussed.

Another great post, John. I'm really pleased at how careful you are to be accurate. Your contributions here are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:49:03 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re the Trolls/David Lovejoy
Message:
I pretty much stopped reading the regular trolls like CW and SC, a long time ago. Because I have limited time, I've gotten selective about what I read on the Forum, which you can do pretty quickly after you have read here for awhile.

Actually, the problem isn't the trolls so much, it's that ex-premies respond to them, and some of them find it quite fun, and irresistible. I'm not so sure this is an evil plot by the trolls, as I think part of the motivation might also be because they find it fun. I would sometimes argue with premies in the past, and clearly in 1997, that's mostly what was going on here, so I'm not surprised that was very evident to you when you read the Forum back then. Now there is a broader cross-section of people posting, so the trolls are a much smaller percentage of posts.

I am pretty much against limiting the Forum, however, but I agree with banning people who become problems. If we have passwords, even if a recent ex were to get the courage to post, they wouldn't be able to. I do find the lurker-but-no-poster phenomenon interesting. It amazes me how much fear there really is in the Maharaji cult, that doesn't go away quickly even after someone leaves. It is very strong and very deep, and the only way, I think, that you can get rid of it, is to say publicly what you think, and see that nothing awful happens, and in fact you feel very liberated.

Also, the Forum is only part of this. The EPO Website, which includes selected portions of the Forum, is not encumbered by trolls and is a great place for people to just read the facts, without being distracted by the trolls. Neither CW, nor anyone else, can interfere with the stark information that is there. In my opinion, it is the website, and not the Forum which is the most powerful element in helping people deprogram.

I'm sorry to say it, and I don't know David Lovejoy, but he deserves the highest form of ridicule for falsly dumping on you on the Forum and then wanting to apologize in private. Sorry, but among decent human beings, things do not work that way, and you were very right in pointing that out.

David, I'm sure someplace in the back of your brain there remains a certain level of ethics you learned as a child, that would apply even to the Maharaji world. Maybe you could try to reconnect with that.

Why, exactly, was Glenn Whittaker's opinion on this considered relevent in any sense whatsoever?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 21:13:28 (EST)
From: Southern Spotted Rock Quoll
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Re the Trolls/David Lovejoy
Message:
The simple fact is that the 'trolls' (what a caring ,sharing concept!) are eternally dumped on here by old hands. As the chief troll and bottle washer . My observation is that only a very few X's bothered to communicate with me on a human level The rest simply turned me into a cartoon character and created a myth. Mr Macgregor has now kindly elevated me to consummate Demonism. To be frank ,it's a nice story. (Actually I'm just really, really dumb.) 'all his adult life?' That makes me an Australian(or NZ?) P. C'mon John. It's spin.
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 23:40:35 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Southern Spotted Rock Quoll
Subject: Okay, I'm game
Message:
What would you like to talk about 'on a human level?' As I said, I don't agree that there is some kind of plot to disrupt the forum by current premies. I'm not sure if John is suggesting that intent, or just the result.

What's a nice story? What's 'spin?' Are you typing in code?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 02:33:06 (EST)
From: SSRQ
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Okay, I'm game
Message:
If I was to visit your home town, I'd know a lot about your life.You know what I mean?Like your favorite watering hole. your preference in Gyms..
John is throwing up a lot of old chestnuts as facts ,when in reality he does not really know whether the stories are true or not.

'Fisherman's wharf is the place to go for Seafood in San Francisco. The scampi are to die for. The Red scnapper is the sweetest anywhere'

Never been there though. John know's nothing about where letters go. He knows nothing about the current or recent structure out at Peakes Crossing.
But that does not matter. He spoke to someone who recommended the Scampi and snapper. Ahh....Writers....

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:34:57 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: SSRQ
Subject: No, it's not
Message:
I think you are still talking in code.

If I was to visit your home town, I'd know a lot about your life.You know what I mean?Like your favorite watering hole. your preference in Gyms..

No, you wouldn't. This is a very big place with many many watering holes and gyms. Unless you knew me, you wouldn't know anything about my 'favorites' of any sort.

John is throwing up a lot of old chestnuts as facts ,when in reality he does not really know whether the stories are true or not.

By all means correct anything that is misstated by anybody here. That's what this place is for. Having said that, when I read what John says, he appears to be bending over backwards saying how he knows what he knows and very careful to correct even the most inconsequential statements if he gets conflicting information.

'Fisherman's wharf is the place to go for Seafood in San Francisco. The scampi are to die for. The Red scnapper is the sweetest anywhere'

Actually, very much NOT true. Fisherman's Wharf is a big tourist attraction with tacky T-Shirt shops and bad food. Although San Francisco has more restaurants per square mile than anywhere in the world (almost 100 per sq mile), and, in my opinion, the best restaurants anywhere, they are not at the Wharf.

The problem here is that you don't have any information, apparently less than John, and therefore you are put in the position of not correcting anything, just saying the statements aren't supported by the evidence. My question is: Why are you put in that position? Why isn't Maharaji coming and straightening out anything that isn't correct that is said here, instead of you having to do it? See, you can't because you don't have any information either.

In the alternative, we are left with the "official" statements of Elan Vital on its erstwhile website, many of which are gross distortions and even lies, which I, myself know for a fact are gross distortions and lies. So, tell me, who has the more credibility here?

Plus, I go back to my opinion that John is saying what he knows and how he knows it. That's fair. Some of the things he says I believe partly because I have heard it from others, or it is part of my own experience.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:00:15 (EST)
From: SSRQ
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: No, it's not
Message:
You picked up exactly on my point Joe.When you read that bit about the wharf you jumped in boots and all.Because I dont know your home town (Or SF) very well . I'm just recycling something I've heard as if I own it and it is a fact.
Now when John starts blathering about OZ it's ditto. Easy for you to accept because you actually dont really know what is true and what is an 'improvement'. But for Ozzie lurkers , we do. And John has painted a picture that does just one thing.Self agrandishment to the point where he looks silly.Bit of an Isadora Duncan. The scarf is wrapped firmly in the spokes of the forward motion and at the speed being travelled there is no chance of unravelling.
I have 'information'.But I see no reason to share it.For those who know the real siuation it is enough to say 'not accurate.'(And many of John's 'indisputable facts' I have addressed earlier.)
You ,and the Junior Burger 1 seem to think intelligence is measured by what one says?Often the reverse is true.John at least is smart enough to recognise that.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:49:30 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: SSRQ
Subject: Sorry SSR
Message:
But if all you do is say he's misrepresenting things, and John has been very specific, without providing anything in the alternative, you lose your credibily, even, I am afraid, among people who want to give M the benefit of the doubt.

What, exactly, did John say that is incorrect? I keep asking you this and I get no response, just restatements of the same thing. Sorry, that just doesn't work.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:07:59 (EST)
From: .
Email: None
To: SSRQ
Subject: You're not game. You're prey.
Message:
Thank god for writers because you sure aren't one. Are you writing in code, as Joe asked?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:56:21 (EST)
From: Mr C WAssel
Email: None
To: .
Subject: Re: You're not game. You're prey.
Message:
Are you?Read up about our little spotted native 'cat'. You will be surprised.John?Ijust think it is sorta tragic.I think that Canadian band,Supertramp wrote that song for John. You know the one? Dr.....,you silly little Dreamer....(Listen to it before you vomit on me. It might surprise you, whoever you be.. )
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:29:02 (EST)
From: Scampi
Email: None
To: Mr C WAssel
Subject: Facts (are important don't you know)
Message:
Supertramp was a British band.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:01:53 (EST)
From: Red Snapper
Email: None
To: Scampi
Subject: Re: Facts (are important don't you know)
Message:
Who says?
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 13:05:01 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: JSCA
Message:
Well reasoned and eloquent post as usual John. However, I do wonder about your following observation:

My question was not whether God/the gods have served human needs, but whether they exist. And clearly ‘neurotheology’ has largely demolished the most popular argument for their existence of the last 30 years - namely the experiential one.

Well perhaps it is your definition of 'god' that has to shift. Where else besides the brain does any experience originate within us? And because we are designed thusly can we actually 'know' anything that is not an experience? After all, our intellectual musings occur in the brain and are subject to the same mysteries and vagaries and confines of circuitry as any 'experience'. Because it has been shown how a certain part of the brain can become stimulated to create a 'blissful experience' does this somehow diminish the value or efficacy of the experience? No more than locating the pleasure centers in the brain involving sexual or gastronomic satisfaction. I mean because scientists can show what part of the brain is stimulated during sex and locate specific chemical and neurological activity does this mean that orgasms and gastronomic delights are unworthy pursuits or meaningless? More to the point, does explaining the mechanics of 'experience' remove it's desirability or suggest that it does not exist? It is certainly helpful in removing some of the magical, fairy-tale voodoo thinking on things but a rose is a rose is still a rose.

Einstein understood in his mind a general model for energy and matter and time and space it didn't decrease one iota for him the essential mystery of life. Of course he never suggested that his unifying theory would bring about world peace, and an undying devotion towards him. However, let us be clear that scientific reasoning does not negate the value of an experience.

The issue for me is whether marji, given his actions, track record and personal history, can stake a claim as a master or teacher or 'gatekeeper' somehow of an experience purported to bring us transcendent peace and fulfillment.

Looking forward to your further posts,

Pullaver

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:08:19 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: JSCA
Message:
Another good one, John. You should be a writer. :) Re trolls, we had so many debates over the years about how open the forum should be. For the longest time, the largest consensus was that we wanted to demonstrate the greatest standard of free speech possible, both because we had a lot of questions, nothing to hide and an appetite for disclosure from any sincere source and also as an ongoing celebration of emancipation from Maharaji's form of thought -- and speech -- control. Plus the trolls proved how callously immoral and hypocritical Maharaji's fruit of the vine was. At first we were amazed they could be so un'godly'.

Those issues are long settled now and their proof is trite. Barring the trolls like CW and SC is long overdue. There was another kind of premie irritant, though, even more common over time than outright trolls. I'm talking about silly premies with silly arguments who aren't erhe to disrupt so much as to sincerely, perhaps, argue their silly positions. All 'silly' because they never, as a rule, adhere to logic, common sense, etc. I'd be interested in your views on them.

Regarding God, yes I think it's sad that scientists wimp out as they do on pinning the tail on the donkey, leaving it to so-called 'extremists' like Dawkins to do so. But that landscape's slowly changing, I believe. Hope so anyway.

Too bad about your friends. Hopefully, when the dust all finally settles, you'll have newfound respect from a lot, if not the vast majority, of your former cult colleagues. It's hard for us longtime exes to really appreciate the loss but I know I feel it even with some of my old premie friends from years ago. It must be sad to lose current ones at the very time you've got something important to tell them if they wree only interested.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 10:33:54 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: John. Please Consider This...
Message:
I think that your analysis of the 'troll' problem is excellent, and probably the best one I've heard so far of exactly what the people like CW do to the forum, and how that can subsequently affect people who are reading, especially for the first time.
It does create havoc, and diminish the power of the forum, which at times can be very insightful, illuminating, liberating, and extremely funny.
It's a shame to see so many of the good qualities get lost amongst squabbles and replies to trolls.

My question to you is this:
Would you consider writing something for the forum, possibly at the beginning of it, that describes what you have just said?
Maybe some insight and some suggestions.
Also, a weekly or monthly reminder from someone to keep the forum on track would be helpful.
I think that less posts with more grit, is preferable to numerous posts, many of which are off topic or inconsequential or replies to people like CW.

Thanks again for your insights.

Any ideas on how to deal with the premies who are on the fence and/or leaving?

Jim

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 07:50:52 (EST)
From: Patrick W
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Re: JSCA
Message:
Well-said John.

You are obviously getting quite a bit of flak for expressing your feelings. As one who has long suffered similar frowns and ostrasization from former premie friends I would encourage you not to be too bothered or to feel that you have to overly appease them. In other words from my own experience I think you deserve some vocal support here.

Take it from me, as time goes by you will be only glad that you had the motivation and boldness to be 'the only soldier in the parade marching in the opposite direction'.

Interesting you've been chatting to fellow Brightonian Glen. I have had a few chats with him about my feelings and he, at least, is a polite person to disagree with! It is a shame that we, who dare to raise objections and criticisms, are generally so resented by our premie peers when in fact we're probably doing everyone including Maharaji himself a big favour by drawing attention to their faults.

Speaking for myself, I confess that I resent that as a young man - who felt quite uncomfortable about various goings-on - my mild constructive criticisms were ignored in preference for the sheep-like preference to only heed His Master's Voice -despite the fact that he was making mistakes which even a simpleton like I could have helped him avoid.

There was never any room for us in this thing. What was that all about?

Who says we are incapable of contributing heartfelt and sensible suggestions. Maharaji seemed to be conversely dedicated to a relentless and puzzling Orwellian crusade to snuff out any individualismhowever helpful - all so that his control was predominant. Is this medieval or what??

Also his system demanded that he be given so much respect that premies had little left for each other. That was wrong too.

The fact that he once sent out bad lieutenants, like unkind David Smith, by the score to oppress and humiliate us willing slaves is proof enough that his judgement was badly flawed. Certainly no loving God (let alone Master) could possibly have inflicted this kind of abuse on his trusting and hopeful flock.
The simple truth is that some of us, who were brought up with some decent human values, would not have made the mistakes that Maharaji made even though we allowed him to become the focus of our 'inspiration' and basically let him get away with it. We should have trusted our own judgement. I suppose some did and thus excluded themselves from his 'heavenly host'.

It is important to not bury our feelings but to speak out. Maharaji and premies apparently strongly resent and question our need to spoil their fun by publicly and ÔdramaticallyÕ raising criticism.

Personally I can tolerate anyoneÕs beliefs and practices but frankly, because of my long experience as a premie being ignored, I feel I have a right to state my case here. Premies can ignore this forum - they don't have to read it. The fact is that they do - and they are concerned that aspirants are put off by what they read I suppose. That's some justice that they cannot so easily ignore us now we have a voice.

My justification for writing here is that I remain committed as ever to finding truth and spreading a little light around the world- and so it is with particular vested interest that I seek to draw attention to the things I feel are at fault with Maharaji's 'mission'. I strongly feel that to debunk the parts of his work that can be de-bunked is a service to everyone. And strangely I am not doing this without some affection for the cult I was in or it's leader!

Basically, if he is such a shining representative of wisdom, a Master of ....? Then he can stand it. In fact he will win through if he's on solid ground. I am not prepared to stand by and let things pass that I have major ethical objections to. For me it is a matter of conscience. I do not want to see something that I helped create (in a small but very substantial way) go careering off in a direction that I feel is unwholesome.

I suppose I still feel that although M and premies see this whole thing as being preciously Maharaji's own personal business (premies merely being impotent beneficiaries) I disagree.

I see the whole thing in a different perspective. I really don't see why one person should monopolise Truth. For example, is it not bizarre that in India M's brother Satpal has a huge following of premies and yet neither of these Master's recognise the legitimacy of the other? Where does that leave their students? If their leaders are blind they will lead their followers into the ditch.

This simple fact tells me that we as individuals empower these Gurus and it is always our sincere intention and application that gets us personal results whether in meditation or in our actions. I suspect that the Knowledge does not belong - is not 'entrusted from above to' - to any one particular Master and that in future this will become clearer. At present it is perhaps our role to help mankind by identifying and sharing with others what we have learned about the way in which these so-called Masters operate. The good side of meditation and so-called Knowledge need not be lost either. This can become better understood.
Devotion to one particular person however seems, even historically, a path fraught with dangers and potential misunderstandings.
Devotion to God is a nice ideal, which seems to get corrupted and compromised in practice -especially since there seem to be rather a lot of different ones.
I believe that the societies of our world need education, and equality - not superior ÔspiritualÕ leaders (businessmen) who apparently only serve to convince and unite their own followers - thus being effectively divisive of mankind.

Various premies have, in their arguments to invalidate our right to criticise M, compared him to a businessman running his own business. Surely such stuff as God and Truth is not a business to be run by some man. I think it would be good if we could all take on the responsibility for our relationship with our Creator and not habitually enthrone some poor Guru to be our God only to tear him down when he shows himself to be embarrassingly human.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 08:41:43 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Wonderful post, Patrick
Message:
I was struck by the comment that the criticism leveled at M here on EPO and the Forum is actually doing him a favor. There is the wise old notion, one I first heard in 'satsang' actually, that a wise man should keep a critic on his doorstep, to help him introspect about his faults and to keep him honest and improving his character.

One wonders about that in M's case. As you pointed out, from day one his agenda was more about finances and luxury. It appears that his massive ego, stroked since he was a toddler, will not permit him to acknowledge any flaw or fault. He just doesn't get it.

Unless, of course, he is changing direction in his 'work' as a direct result of the light shown from here into his nastiness and deception. He would never likely acknowledge that.

Again, I enjoyed your heartfelt and thougtful post.
Best,
Carl

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 09:19:31 (EST)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Patrick W
Subject: Re: JSCA
Message:
'There was never any room for us in this thing. What was that all about?'

just about sums up what I feel at this point after 12 years of daily involvement from 1972 and intermittent spasms after that. I think it deserves further attention because at this time it looks as if GMs financial and hedonistic direction was there virtually from day 1, and there was a conspiracy by those on the inside to deceive those on the outside. As you say 'what was that all about?' - certainly not the path to truth.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:23:28 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Another wonderful post, John
Message:
Many thanks. I agree so much with everything that you said that I have nothing to add.
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:06:26 (EST)
From: Channeling George
Email: None
To: John Macgregor
Subject: Somewhere
Message:
Beyond all Reason, far from the Cyberspace,
lies a Valley deep with Wisdom and a Mountain High with Grace.
Stop before you try to IMAGINE (this one's for John, a slave to Woman
who made an Ass of himself), you can never comprehend, the Peace &
Glory deep Inside, without Beginning and No End.
We love Guru Maharaj Ji, know His Word is Strong and True,
Be Grateful for His Perfect Knowledge, Peace and Bliss is Satguru.
Blessings to all Premies, My Compassion for all Ex-Premies.
P.S. His Leela has just begin!
P.P.S Dogs begin to Bark, Hounds begin to Howl...
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:47:33 (EST)
From: channelling Morrison
Email: None
To: Channeling George
Subject: the end
Message:
this is the end
beautiful friend
this is the end
my only friend, the end
of all elaborate plans, the end
of everything that stands, the end
no safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes
again

can you picture
what will be?
so limitless and
free?

desperately in need
of some
stranger's hand
in a
desperate land

lost in a [Roman/roamin]
wilderness of pain
and all the children
are insane

all the children
are insane

waiting for the summer rain, yeah

there's danger on the edge of town
ride the king's highway
weird scenes inside the goldmine
ride the highway west, baby
ride the snake

ride the snake
to the lake
the ancient lake, baby
the snake he's long
seven miles
ride the snake
he's old
and his skin is cold

the west is the best
the west is the best

get here--and we'll do the rest

the blue bus
is calling us
the blue bus
is calling us

Driver, where're you taking us?

the killer awoke before dawn
he put his boots on
he took a face
from the ancient gallery
and he
walked on down the hall
and he went into the room where his sister lived and then he
paid a visit to his brother and then he
he walked on down the hall

and he came to a door
and he looked inside

'Father?'
'yes, son'
'I want to kill you'.

Mother?
I want to....
@#$%^&*()(*&^%$#@
yeah
come on, yeah

come on baby, take a chance with us--
come on, baby, take a chance with us--

come on baby,
take a chance with us, and meet me
at the back of the blue bus tonight
tomorrow night,
blue bus, tonight--
blue bus?
come on, yeah....

this is the end
beautiful friend

this is the end
my only friend, the end

it hurts to set you free,
but you'll never follow me

the end
of laughter
and soft lies...
the end
of nights
we tried to
die....

this
is
the

ennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:37:32 (EST)
From: channeling george
Email: None
To: channelling Morrison
Subject: yep, I like that song!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 06:20:07 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Channeling George
Subject: Here you go
Message:
Another shining and articulate example of the lords influence and wisdom.

This poor misguided soul creates as valid an argument in favor of running like hell as fast as you can away from m and the cult as I have ever seen.

Keep it up Pal, you are presenting a valiant case for our side

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:39:18 (EST)
From: c.g.
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: you're welcome
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:43:02 (EST)
From: So why have over 90 per cent
Email: None
To: Channeling George
Subject: of Maharaji's students
Message:
have left him?

What enquiries have you made about the allegations against one of Maharaji's most senior staff raped and abused children and the allegation tha Maharaji et al have kept silent all this time?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:42:05 (EST)
From: c.g.
Email: None
To: So why have over 90 per cent
Subject: because they identify GM with Prempal
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:58:55 (EST)
From: and the other 10% are devoid
Email: None
To: So why have over 90 per cent
Subject: of any humanness (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:30:00 (EST)
From: Summary of CG's post
Email: None
To: Channeling George
Subject: We love Guru Maharaj Ji [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:53:35 (EST)
From: Z
Email: None
To: Summary of CG's post
Subject: We love Guru Maharaj Ji [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:42:50 (EST)
From: c.g.
Email: None
To: Z
Subject: question: who is GM?
Message:



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