Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Dec 09, 2001 To: Dec 17, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


Jim -:- I guess he must be a Perfect Master! -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 16:29:31 (EST)
__ such -:- 'The King': -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:49:09 (EST)

Gerry -:- Message to CW and SC -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:31:51 (EST)
__ SC -:- Oh shit! -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:33:54 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- 'outa here'? -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:27:13 (EST)
__ __ __ SC -:- I knew you'd get it first Nige -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:27:26 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Good for you, Gerry -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:47:59 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Is Catweasel DEREK HARPER?? -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 12:00:56 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- According to Gerry he is DH -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 12:58:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Gerry, do you know???? -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 13:35:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Blimey - you're right, Joe.. -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 13:59:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Blimey - you're right, Joe.. -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:31:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Involve Law Enforcement... -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 14:18:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cat -:- Re: Involve Law Enforcement... -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 16:25:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Goodbye..? -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:58:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ex-premie anti-cat troll #9 -:- fuck off, troll! -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:39:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Cat, are you DEREK HARPER? -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:27:55 (EST)

Vicki -:- Trolls -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 09:02:40 (EST)
__ gerry -:- Please don't feed the Trolls -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 10:15:34 (EST)
__ __ Francesca -:- What about IP numbers -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 14:10:19 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- And PS help needed on troll ID -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 10:23:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks Vicky and Gerry... -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:15:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Oh! alright then -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 12:28:34 (EST)

JHB -:- New page on EPO - Moving On -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:34:25 (EST)
__ Tim G -:- Re: New page on EPO - Moving On -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:57:13 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Good question to include, John -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 14:04:19 (EST)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Rev Rawat's K is a perversion -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 04:11:52 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Rev Rawat's K is a perversion -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 13:10:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim S. -:- Re: Rev Rawat's K is a perversion -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:14:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Rev Rawat's K is a perversion -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 13:24:10 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Very well done, John (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 12:12:03 (EST)
__ Bhole Shri -:- WebMaster Ki JAI !!!! -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 09:14:49 (EST)
__ Jerry -:- Nice, John -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 09:08:21 (EST)
__ janet -:- no link? why not? -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 08:08:04 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: no link? why not? -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 18:04:17 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Excellent, John -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 05:11:46 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: Excellent, John -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:31:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- John, a very good addition... [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:20:20 (EST)

jonathan carr -:- Went to Dec. 8-9 Event -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:45:06 (EST)
__ Zelda -:- exs and god -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:04:02 (EST)
__ __ jonathan -:- Re: exs and god -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 21:54:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: exs and god -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:33:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Whoa whoa take it easy on the man! -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:07:53 (EST)
__ Found this on EPO -:- from the Trancenet site -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:20:09 (EST)
__ janet -:- my take? forget marriage -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:00:56 (EST)
__ __ A Friend -:- Re: my take? forget marriage -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:25:32 (EST)
__ the poor girl -:- better start running.. -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:28:26 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- Oh I don't know... -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:51:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Oh I don't know... -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:59:45 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- This thread definitely *** BEST OF *** -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:24:11 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Hi Jonathan -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:15:35 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Hi Jonathan, I liked your post -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:31:31 (EST)
__ Jethro -:- A suggestion -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:40:45 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Welcome and thanks for great post -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:35:38 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Thanks and welcome.. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:03:43 (EST)
__ __ jonathan carr -:- Re: Thanks and welcome.. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:15:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- re. orthodox -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:53:21 (EST)
__ __ __ Jorge -:- Hey that was my friend, Rabbi Katz -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:05:16 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- See Timmi's post below -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:59:05 (EST)
__ __ jonathan -:- Re: See Timmi's post below -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:34:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Welcome Jonathan! -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:55:42 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Bravo Jonathon. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:54:05 (EST)
__ __ Jonathan carr -:- Re: Bravo Jonathon. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:08:35 (EST)
__ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: Bravo Jonathon. -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:47:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ beverly -:- Re: Bravo Jonathon. -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 01:28:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim S. -:- Beverly, can you share more.. -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:24:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Beverly -:- Re: Beverly, can you share more.. -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 21:41:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi beverly -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 02:02:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ beverly -:- Re: Hi beverly -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 21:46:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi again, Beverly -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 23:22:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ beverly -:- Re: Hi again, Beverly -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 02:48:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Hi again, Beverly -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 04:20:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Beverly -:- Re: Hi again, Beverly -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 12:07:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Beverly -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 13:38:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- God, Timmi -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:47:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: Bravo Jonathon. -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:01:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I'm not sure about that premise -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 20:08:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: I'm not sure about that premise -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 21:45:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- I have a project for your girlfriend -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:55:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- MIND MANIPULATION alert! -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 22:34:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Jonathan, how about this? -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 03:26:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Most premies -:- only do one hour -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 18:20:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Suzanne -:- They usually SLEEP -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 18:56:50 (EST)
__ __ __ RichMandrake -:- Jonathan..A Few Words about the '70s -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:29:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- That was a fantastic summary -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:11:05 (EST)
__ __ __ SC -:- Wow Johnny... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:21:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: Wow Johnny... -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:27:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: Wow Johnny... -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 10:44:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Do you know David Roupell, Johnny? -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 03:06:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: Wow Johnny... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 00:18:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Johnny... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 23:02:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Hi Johnny... -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 23:12:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: Hi Johnny... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:51:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Bit of both J -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:57:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Spot on Jonathan--very impressive [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:55:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ SC appears to know you, Jonathan, -:- SC is a premie named David Roupell [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:06:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Indeed he does -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:17:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Then why not say your name? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:51:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- welcome Jonathon Ignore em Pat ignore em! nt -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:11:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC...I'll ignore them, mags -:- Just trying to warn Jonathan this time. [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 14:09:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Pull your skirt down Patsy -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:37:43 (EST)

Check out -:- Elk Interactive Problem Page...! -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:38:44 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Anybody need comic relief--read above post -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:31:47 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Should have known it was you... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:46:32 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Thanks! -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:08:02 (EST)

Timmi -:- information needed, please -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 13:41:50 (EST)
__ janet -:- observation -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:59:54 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Re: information needed, please -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:03:09 (EST)
__ __ SC -:- Right on Pat -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:30:49 (EST)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Maraji as a mistress -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 16:57:43 (EST)

salsa -:- Nice pictures -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 10:47:14 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- BEAUTIFUL! Thank you, Silvia..A must see [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:51:26 (EST)

Does Anyone Know About This??? -:- Some French CACa Needs To Be Scooped -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:51:22 (EST)
__ Maybe Not -:- Or is this a translation of letter? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:57:38 (EST)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Details, and thanks to them -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:19:42 (EST)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- EV's PRs' nightmares -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:26:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Much Obliged -:- Thanks, JM [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:32:07 (EST)


Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 16:29:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I guess he must be a Perfect Master!
Message:
Taliban chief's surprising opulence
December 12, 2001 Posted: 8:23 AM EST (1323 GMT)

Click the arrows to see more images of Mullah Omar's compound


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By CNN Chief International Correspondent Christiane Amanpour

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (CNN) -- In a stunning setting in the foothills of Kandahar's mountains, Mullah Omar's compound offers a few surprises.

A bizarre sculpture sits in the driveway of the man who ordered the ancient Bamiyan Buddhas destroyed. None of the new occupants quite knows what it is.

'My gut feeling,' laughs Abdul Jalil Mujahed, 'is that it's for the deer to enjoy when they come down from the hills.'

New Afghan interim leader Hamid Kharzai and his loyalists are now living in the Taliban leader's home.

They are wide-eyed as they give CNN a tour of the compound's marble and pastel-painted mosque.

VIDEO
CNN's Christiane Amanpour tours Mullah Omar's elaborate compound (December 11)

Play video
(QuickTime, Real or Windows Media)

CNN.COM SPECIAL REPORT

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Inside, there are chandeliers hanging from the ceilings, mirrored walls and plush carpets. It's a level of showy opulence no one here imagined, from a man promoted as a humble cleric living in a simple mud-brick hut.

The large compound is luxurious by Afghan standards. It has been heavily bombed by the United States, but a survey from the roof shows that the mosque and Mullah Omar's bedrooms were unscathed

Anti-Taliban soldiers now pose for pictures with their weapons on Mullah Omar's double bed. Outside, walking through the rubble of the quarters for guests and cattle, it's apparent that every room had air conditioning -- including the cowsheds. Electric ceiling fans cooled the animals. And to drink, there's running water from taps.

Only 12 percent of all the people in Afghanistan have access to clean water.

'They built this all for the cows, while our people never had these things,' says Saylab. 'This was built with Osama's money ... with the blood of the Afghan people.'

While most people make do with outhouses and holes in the ground, Mullah Omar had tiled bathrooms with shower fixtures and flushing toilets.

He is thought to have fled the comfort of his muraled walls shortly after the air war began. U.S. Special Forces are believed to have raided it for evidence early on.

The evidence found here suggests a leader who, in the name of God, demanded so much sacrifice from his people, but suffered none himself.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:49:09 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'The King':
Message:
quote: 'I'm a great leader. You must obey me. Not only that, you must love me.'

-- Saddam Hussein

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:31:51 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Message to CW and SC
Message:
To David Roupell (aka SC) and Derek Harper (aka Catweasel):

Stop posting on this site. Further posting here will more evidence of continued harrassment.

How else can I say it?

Stop posting here.

There. I've fulfilled the legal requirements...

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:33:54 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Oh shit!
Message:
I just had a pleasant and amusing exchange with Jimbo

BEFORE reading this....

sorry....

I'm outa here....

RIGHT NOW!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:27:13 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: 'outa here'?
Message:
As if....

Even punters who are pummelled mightily then thrown down concrete steps by bouncers this week can't wait to smuggle themsleves back into the disco next week if they can't bear the separation from the social scene they love the best. Admit it, David - you are an ex-premie. Your inevitable return will only prove as much.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:27:26 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I knew you'd get it first Nige
Message:
Your writing betrays the fact that you are endowed with a little more grey matter than most. It seems you have recognised that there's an 'ex-premie' in all of us and that I do indeed come here to feed my particular animal. I only wish that some brudders and sisterz here didn'ty get so abusive and petty vindictive about M and K because it takes away all the drips and dries them up liike a desert.

It's the old fashioned premies who molded us more than M did - they're the fucks who eroded our confidence and made us think we're in a cult and that if we behave we'll move up the ladder towards true stardom (like them power trippers).

M I see differently as you know. One can't help it when one has had so many personal encounters of the excellent kind.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:47:59 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Good for you, Gerry
Message:
This is the type of action I have been waiting to see. I'm glad that John McG came along to tell you what Roupell and CW (don't know for sure) game has been. Many of the posters, especially the women including myself, who are more sensitive to unwarranted abuse have diagnosed the situation on many occasions but unfortunately haven't had the credibility that John has to be taken seriously.

Thanks John, what took ya so long to get here?

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 12:00:56 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Is Catweasel DEREK HARPER??
Message:
Or he is 'Derek' something else. Can anyone confirm? I would be surprised if he was Derek Harper because I would think Derek Harper would be too busy doing other 'things' to spend as much time here as Catweasel does.

Does anyone know?

Btw, good work Gerry.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 12:58:27 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: According to Gerry he is DH
Message:
John Macgregor seems confident that he knows CW well, but I don't think he referred to him by name - and I'm not sure the source of Gerry's info - though he seems confident that it is correct.

Cryptic use of the word 'things' there, Joe...(?) Though I won't ask for clarification or try to guess your motivations for alluding to them.

Personally I don't really care who the guy is. It is enough to know what he aims to do here, namely, to infuriate. I think John Mac has him down to a 't' when lower down he suggests CW's reasons for engaging here - ie. to hi-jack sensitive discussions, to make the forum look an unappetising place to engage, and to frighten off lurkers from posting through fear of verbal attack.

Not even CW believes the crap he posts here - too intelligent in real life, apparently. And he must know how weak his impotent, unsubstantiated attacks on Mike Dettmer's detailed, credible evidence must look to the outsider. But by turning the forum into a slanging match he maybe hopes people will steer clear of reading that particular evidence - or something. Ditto Jagdeo.

His involvement can not be about establishing his personal integrity or credibilty, so he must have a different agenda, as John suggests.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 13:35:06 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Gerry, do you know????
Message:
Well, I think it does make a difference.

Derek Harper, I believe, is an Instructor, a major honcho in EV (Australia), prominently featured in EV publications, and according to Henrietta Wallaby, is involved in a number of other 'things' which I'm not sure are referred to in John MacGregor's posts about the more unsavory activities of the traveling Instructors. He was also the MC at the last Amaroo "event" much to the dismay of Henrietta.

I have always assumed that Catweasel is just some Australian premie with too much time on his hands who is addicted to the Forum. If Catweasel is Derek Harper, that's something quite different. It implies a much higher level of official EV involvement, and would open up the possibility of direct questions to Derek about some of his 'unofficial' activities.

Also, by "outing" him, I believe he would be less likely to say such stupid things.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 13:59:29 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Blimey - you're right, Joe..
Message:
I had no idea who Derek Harper was/is. And yes I think it makes a big difference - especially if John Macgregor had him in mind when discussing travelling instructors - though it would be inappropriate without evidence to go linking any name with the unsavoury activities cited by John (except in the sense of being an initiator in a devotional cult is pretty unsavoury in my book).

But irrespective of John's post, it would be damning enough that one of M's emissaries to the world should hang out here addressing people as 'Bumface' or 'Dickbrain' without the slightest provocation. It sure wouldn't look good. But I don't know how anyone could prove one character was the other if they vehemently choose to deny it - other than by some pretty sophisticated web-detective work, perhaps.

(Though Cat could, of course, prove he is not DH by verifiably identifying himself to some or other ex here he trusts who has been sworn to secrecy. But if CW isn't DH he probably doesn't care enough to bother with anything like that - and if he is DH then he wouldn't be able to. Hmm.... complicated.)

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:31:54 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Blimey - you're right, Joe..
Message:
I have no first-hand information on Derek Harper's personal behavior, only what has been metioned on the Forum.

But I do know that he is an Instructor, was, I think, National Coordinator in Australia for a number of years, and has written entries on 'Please Consider This' and in a very slim volume I saw commemorating 25 years of Maharaji in Australia, called 'The Golden [Something]. It was a bit of a whitewash, of course, ignoring all the troubling things, like the period 1977-1983. That seems to be the period that causes the most problems to the PR people at Elan Vital. There is just no way to fit it into even the revisionsit history they are always trying to write.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 14:18:00 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Involve Law Enforcement...
Message:
John Macgregor had suggested in one of his posts that we could contact the Australian Federal Police. We simply give them the information we have, and the names of the people we suspect are involved. They have the resouces to determine who is actually doing what. Be sure and include any other police reports or other complaints filed with law enforcement agencies.
[ Australian Federal Police ]
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 16:25:18 (EST)
From: Cat
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: Involve Law Enforcement...
Message:
I'm tired of this crap. I have spoken to the Federal Police about harrassment many times. (I just dont publicise what happens) Before I can do anything or you can ,there has to be an offence under Australian Law. To date from my side that has not happened. From your side, it has on a number of occasions.
This is a public unprotected forum.Think about the reality.Now having said that ,Goodbye.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:58:29 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Cat
Subject: Goodbye..?
Message:
As if.

Aufwiedersehen, Derek.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:39:17 (EST)
From: Ex-premie anti-cat troll #9
Email: None
To: Cat
Subject: fuck off, troll!
Message:
Hey, Cat, I'm using your tactics and being a troll.

It's like you don't have to come here, you know?

If you didn't come here and act stupid these alleged crimes against you would never take place. And it's not like we haven't told you to take your cat scat and scram. But, it seems like you have nothing better to do or you are being paid for doing what you do here. Ok, if not paid you have a very vested interest and your livelihood depends on the success of your Master - the Boss.

Some think that you are scaring PWKs away. I, OTH, think that you provide the necessary contrast and example of just how Maharaji's cult depends so much on the suspension of rational and reasonable thinking. All you can do, Cat, is be obnoxiously inane. If I was a PWK I'd be pretty embarrassed and I'd be wondering about what I was doing in Maharaji's cult. But, you think he's Lord of the Universe, don't you? Cat, I bet it's pretty difficult to ever consider that you or your God might be wrong. The coming to battle us small minded cyber-idiots must be like a major jihad for you, isn't it?

And if it isn't then what?

I'll tell you what. I can see you now huffing and puffing around your little house or flat or rat hole, as the Lord referred to where we lived. And I can see you getting all bent out of shape, getting pretty damn far from 'That' place. Hell, Cat, for your own good why don't you give it up and spend more of your time meditating instead of Thinking about what we say. Man! You must be in your mind all the time about this stuff. It must eat you up, huh? Consume most of your day, I'd bet.

Ok, waiting for your snappy reply now. (Like I care. Like you'll ever say anything new and different.)

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:27:55 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cat
Subject: Cat, are you DEREK HARPER?
Message:
Can you just tell us one way or the other?
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 09:02:40 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Trolls
Message:
It is interesting to look at various threads' subjects which seem to attract the most obnoxious troll engagement. Why is that? The only thing I can figure out is that particular subject is something they want run off the posting page, the sooner the better.

We have the subject of the Dec. program and being in a relationship with a devoted premie, then there was the one which gave current Amaroo info, on and on and on.

These people must consider it their absolute duty and service to offer the old tactic of the best defense is an offense.

Anytime we allow them to do this, they have accomplished their goal of getting damaging information off the page so lurking pwks can't see it.

It also sets in motion heated dialogue which only reinforces the misconception that a person will be the
target of intense dialogue. We have to remember how fragile the state of a new pwk is that might want to post, but won't after reading all the ruckus Trolls get the Ex-ers to engage in. They make very intelligent people appear to be something they are not.

If the Trolls were ever going to be logically convinced or out debated, it would have happened a long time ago. It is very frustrating to see their tired and worn out tactics keep working, only because they know what will push the button around here.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 10:15:34 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: Vicki
Subject: Please don't feed the Trolls
Message:
I guess I'll call and/or email the local police authorities for both David Roupell and Derek Harper, who are respectively, SC and Catweasel.

Ive repeatedly asked these two trolls to stay away and tried to block them. I think they are probably at the point where they are breaking some law. Perhaps I'll just place my complaint directly with the Australian equivalent of a state's Attorney General.

Any Aussies out there who can point me in the right direction? Email, please.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 14:10:19 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: What about IP numbers
Message:
... and other electronic evidence, in case it is not one of those two? Wouldn't the ISP know who it is? That's another route you could go concurrently with your other approach, in case you've got the wrong person(s).

If the police are at all interested, the ISP may be more willing to cooperate, although they may be willing from the get-go. Just a thought.

Of course, answerus interruptus is the best way to deal with trolls in the short run. Take a deep breath and don't touch that keyboard. All the fun is lost if you don't respond.

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 10:23:07 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: And PS help needed on troll ID
Message:
I need Harper's home address. I already have Roupell's. Someone please foward it to me?

I have to say the police are very compliant and cooperative once I explain that we are a support group helping people out of a Scientology-like cult with comparatives to the Jim Jones People's temple cult. They understand very well and are sympathetic as well as helpful.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:15:44 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks Vicky and Gerry...
Message:
...for bringing this up. It's too easy to fall into the trap of the nasties...

This is actually a good practice of self-restraint (not responding or engaging)...I know it's difficult, but it does make a difference.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 12:28:34 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Oh! alright then
Message:
Cat point-blank denied being Derek Harper in a post to me, so perhaps Derek Harper is a liar. If he is CW - that figures!

Whatever. Cat's technique (if that is the right word) is NOT to say what he thinks or believes, but only to attack and be snide and negative.

This is because his beliefs are so stupid (and he knows it) that to state them is to invite swift and logical rebuttal. Don't say what you think, just be snide and deride is what a Catweasle does.

But that tactic has reached the end of the road, now, and I am very glad. Well done Gerry!

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:34:25 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: jhb@ex-premie.org
To: All
Subject: New page on EPO - Moving On
Message:
I've added a new question to the FAQ section on the home page - 'Why don't we just 'move on'?', and a new page.

Let me know what you think. Praise is preferable, but I can take brickbats as well.

John.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:57:13 (EST)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: JHB
Subject: Re: New page on EPO - Moving On
Message:
I visit and post here, occasionally, for most of the reasons you mention on EPO John. I am curious to hear about the progress of the cult, the progress of those discovering fresh pastures and Yes I suppose would like to see Mr Rawat face his comeuppence although I'm not holding my breath. I also enjoy the characters who contribute here and see that we do provide a service for those who are exiting. Here and there there are some crums of wisdom and humour too. I must admit that Forum 7 has been my homepage for the last few months. So good on you John and keep up the good work.
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 14:04:19 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Good question to include, John
Message:
There's one ''who'' in there that should be a ''whom'' but otherwise excellent.

I see that the premies on LG are still talking about why we have not ''moved on.'' One of them compared it with pining over a former girlfriend and wondered why we just didn't forget it. I wanted to respond that one has to warn others if you find that your ex-girlfriend has syphilis but resisted the temptation.

The premies also cannot understand why we stuck it out with M and K for two or more decades if he was so boring and idiotic. Again I resisted the temptation to respond that it was really only after we left the cult and looked back from our newfound freedom and sanity that we could see just how stupid the whole cult trip was.

This is why I post here: yesterday I got an email from someone who has just left the cult. The email had a copy of one of my old posts from April attached to it. It was one of my ''deconstructing K'' posts.

Joe said to me at lunch the other day that, when I first started posting, I was trying to teach you guys about Hinduism. Actually I was trying to free myself from my own Hinduism by writing about it. Anyway it appears that this particular post was a big drip for a wavering premie.

Here it is warts and all. I would like you to edit it for me, John. Is that possible? ;)

Rev Rawat's ''Knowledge'' is a perversion

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 04:11:52 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Rev Rawat's K is a perversion
Message:
Is also in the 'Best of' section of EPO:

http://www.ex-premie.org/best/k%20is%20a%20perversion.htm
[ Rev Rawat's K is a perversion ]

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 13:10:43 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Rev Rawat's K is a perversion
Message:
Thanks J-M. I didn't know that.
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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:14:26 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Rev Rawat's K is a perversion
Message:
Excellent essay,Pat.
Glad it brought some clarity to a forum reader.
I recommend it be put somewhere prominent for others to read.

JS

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 13:24:10 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: Re: Rev Rawat's K is a perversion
Message:
Thanks Jim S but I need to rewrite it. I've learned a lot more since then.

Your letter to your community also figured prominently in this person's exiting the cult and is also being sent along with my essay and Mishler's and Dettmers' stuff as a package to premie friends of this new ex.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 12:12:03 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Very well done, John (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 09:14:49 (EST)
From: Bhole Shri
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: WebMaster Ki JAI !!!!
Message:
good job, John..;-)
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 09:08:21 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Nice, John
Message:
Well stated and pretty much covers all the bases.
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 08:08:04 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: no link? why not?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 18:04:17 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: no link? why not?
Message:
Janet,

The link to the new page is on the home page of EPO. I assume regular readers here have EPO bookmarked. Didn't take much intelligence to work that out, now, did it? I apologise for the sarcasm:-)

John.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 05:11:46 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: Excellent, John
Message:
Reasonable, non-vindictive tone. Very well written. One possible suggestion: you could add some stuff about rebuilt careers, resumed educations etc - moving on in that sense. Exes becoming, for the most part, socially-functional criticl thinkers after years of the one-track mindwarp.

But as it stands, a very good FAQ to include.

BTW: you seem to have lost the prominent link to the forum that was once there. And when you do find your way in, you have still got the message about F7 being passworded - though I guess you can't do everything at once.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:31:47 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Excellent, John
Message:
Thanks, Nigel,

Good point about the positive aspects of moving on. I'll have a think about it. The removal of the prominent forum link is deliberate. Too many new people find the site and come straight to the forum without reading any of the evidence. I'm trying to get those people to read more of EPO. For regular users like me who can't remember the forum URL away from home, there is a link at the bottom of the page. I can't keep with with Gerry about the password situation:-)

John.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:20:20 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: John, a very good addition... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:45:06 (EST)
From: jonathan carr
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: All
Subject: Went to Dec. 8-9 Event
Message:
I am thirty-five years old and my significant other introduced me to Maharaji. For the two years I've known her, she's been talking about Maharaji and knowledge. She received knowledge three years ago in Katmandu, in her country of origin, Nepal. We've been living together for one year. She is extremely into Maharaji, so last weekend (Dec. 8-9, 2001) we went to Miami Beach for an event. I didn't want to go, but the local rep was over at my house and she and my girlfriend were imploring me do it, so I thought, what the heck, and we booked our tickets.

On Monday, I decided to look into Maharaji on the internet. Not that I was ever all that attracted to his teachings. But I've been to some broadcasts and watched some videos over the past two years. But the event left me very dazed and confused. That's when I discovered this ex-premie site. It's wonderful how it encapsulates everything my 'doubt-maker' was thinking all along about Maharaji. I am Jewish, and it's sad how many Jews fall into these cults. But really I'm a particularly bad candidate for any cult other than the one I might start myself one day. Well, don't hold your breath.

Anyway, the event was held in the Miami Convention Center. It looked like maybe four thousand people were there. The people running the show were quite nice: the event price was $120, but we only paid thirty dollars for the both of us since e're kinda poor these days and we had to buy airline tickets. Saturday, M talked the usual baloney, basically 'pratice whether you want to or not.' The rest was just commentary like jokes about Clint Eastwood and maniacal drivers. Sunday he rambled some more and then sang a raga-type song to a dance beat. Also, his daughter performed some short, albeit beautiful, songs to start each program. Also, on Sunday two old-timers publicly praised M. First a British man, then a Black woman engineer from Washington DC.

Afterwards, there were so many people crying. A teenager in front of us stayed in her chair and cried and cried. My girlfriend cried. Even I shed a little tear. Why is that? Since then, I've had a low-grade headache. Must be M's screechy, high voice. But I have no doubt that I walked right into a cult with a very corrupt leader as the figurehead.

Now I really want to confront my girlfriend about this whole thing. Last night I subtly mentioned M's riches. She scoffed at that, saying it didn't matter to her. I also mentioned his wife Marolyn sleeping around. The fact that their marriage was on the rocks didn't bother her. My girlfriend always tells me to listen to my heart and not my brain. I described the palatial Malibu home, the $40 million dollar Challenger jet, Amaroo, etc etc, but she didn't care. I mentioned how donations from followers paid for everything, how M's mother fought against M having exclusive rights to teach K, etc. Nothing jolted her.

Does anyone have advice on how to handle this situation? My girlfriend has a framed picture of M with his gibberish writing on our dresser in our bedroom. She also wears a small locket with his face on one side and his toes on the other. She loves to watch videos and broadcasts. Most of all, she devoutly practices every single day. Would I be stupid for even trying to talk to her about the facts? Is there hope for our relationship? The good news is that I've been going to my Temple for Friday night services more and more. I think her belief in M has bothered me enough to do that, which is good, I think.

She tells me that accepting K doesn't preclude my belief in Judaism. But, from what I've read, one has to publicly declare an unbinding affection for M. I now think it is my religious background that prevents me from accepting K. So be it. But I'm wondering about the future of our relationship. I already told her when we first started dating that if we were to consider marriage, I wanted a Jewish home and Jewish kids. I also asked her to consider converting to Judaism. How can I feel comfortable in my own home with videos, broadcasts, and that puffy face? She agreed to all my requests. But she did tell me it would be hard for her to convert.

In conclusion, I would appreciate any help from people who convinced others of the falsehood that M represents. Or, if people have advice for those who live or lived with believers. Or just advice for people like me who contemplated receiving K, but were reluctant, and then found this website, which bolstered an ability to say enough is enough.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:04:02 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: jonathan carr
Subject: exs and god
Message:
Hello Jonathan
Just want to mention that -for some exs , bieng an ex also means an aversion to religion and belief in god. I was shocked to see the comments about Judism ect in this thread.
Not all exs are atheist or anti relgion.
Hope things work out for you
Zelda
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 21:54:40 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Zelda
Subject: Re: exs and god
Message:
Thanks for the tip, Zelda. I was wondering.... It's all understandable how a person could get completely turned off to any kind of spirituality after escaping from the clutches of Puff-Daddy. Just out of curiousity, what did you mean by 'shocked'? Could you elaborate?
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:33:14 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Re: exs and god
Message:
Sniping at a persons religious beliefs like that is insensitive and arrogant . It surprised me even coming from an ex.
You may not be aware of it , but even though they are invaluable to helping the exiting process, some exes take take the logic to encompass much more.
Atheism is rampant here - and somehow it often gets incorporated into the threads but usually the poster are aware that they are wandering into the discussion.
I think it was rude a stupid to allude to your religious life /style when you were only asking for help.

The twist is that some of the best exiting facilitators here have a atheist mindset - but I think what was said to you was exploitive.

It shocked me because it was rude rude rude....

Hope things seem less muddy.
Zelda

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:07:53 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Whoa whoa take it easy on the man!
Message:
Why is Jonathan's alluding to his spiritual beliefs and introducing himself properly (a nice change, by the way) considered rude? Why is it 'exploitative' that he talk about a belief that may not be popular with the majority of the posters here, and how was he to know that, merely by way of introduction? Is he supposed to lurk here for weeks to find out that the most vocal posters are atheists, and don't have much tolerance for religion after dealing with the Mahajuju, so he can post in a way that is politically correct?

So is it a sin for him to have a religious affiliation and tell people about it? How else is he going to explain his own spin on his girlfriend's spirituality except by coming from his own?

I think you're being a bit harsh on a newcomer. I suspect that most of the exes who post on here who have even a loose religious affiliation don't discuss it here because they'd just end up in a largely off-topic debate.

Give the man a break. I find it refreshing.

Thanks,

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:20:09 (EST)
From: Found this on EPO
Email: None
To: jonathan carr
Subject: from the Trancenet site
Message:
What if I suspect a loved one is in a cult?

The first and most important thing you can offer your loved one: Don't panic.

Very few cults act out violently. It is unlikely that your friend or family member is in immediate danger. And you will need time and patience to give your loved one options in their cult involvement.
Many family members try to avert the very real dangers they see via a 'frontal assault.' They try to prove that the group or leader that the loved one is following is wrong or evil or whatever. This approach rarely works.

Followers of these groups have been thoroughly indoctrinated to distrust anyone who might help them: doctors, counselors, lawyers, even their own family members. If you attack their belief system headlong, you will just be reinforcing their indoctrination. They will see you as the bad guy.

But there are powerful things you can do:

Make sure -- no matter what she does or says -- that your loved one can count on your love and support. Some people try briefly, yet forcefully, once, telling their family member that they are very concerned about what is happening -- but they will always love and support them no matter what their decision. Then, as hard as it may seem, drop the topic altogether (unless of course they bring it up). This defeats the conditioning they have learned: You are offering unconditional love and support, something that they will never find in their group, but you are not attacking them.
Keep in contact -- even if that means traveling to where the person is. This is what kept some small hope in our hearts. Personal contact too, because letters will not get to the person, nor will phone messages. A 'sore point' that we have discovered is pretty common throughout cult involvement.
Read as much as you can on the subject of cults. The more you understand what is going on, the more you will be able to grab any opportunity that presents itself.
Reach out to as many people as you can find who have or are going through what you are. We support a free email list, recover-l, for former members and families. It's based loosely on the AA/12-Step model, and subscribers may choose to maintain anonymity if they desire (Email us for info if you are interested).
No matter what happens do not blame yourself. You won't be any help to your loved one if you feel crippled with guilt about what you should have done or what you should be doing now.
If, you are having guilt feelings or find that you are blaming yourself for what happened to your loved one -- you may want to seek support for your feelings and concerns. Cults do not only harm the member, family and friends are also hurt. Knowledge eases the pain and helps with the recovery process. Most family members will educate themselves about cults, but will ignore their feelings of hurt, anger and confusion. Your feelings are just as important in the healing process.

What warning signs should I look for?

Parents often ask what warning signs will tell them whether their children are at risk for joining a cult.

If you wonder whether this personality type or that is more at risk than another, or this kind of parent is more to blame than another, or maybe you moved your kid too many times during their formative years, our answer would have to be a resounding 'No!'
Anecdotal reports and research show the vast majority of people who join cults are 'normal' by any meaningful definition. They are usually above average in intelligence, creativity, altruism.

Cults aren't interested in stupid, untalented, slackers.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:00:56 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: jonathan carr
Subject: my take? forget marriage
Message:
You don't understand the extent to which a premie is dyed to the core in this thing. I was in it 27 years. If you want a jewish home, leave this female and go find a jewish woman who feels as deeply about your heritage as you do. The problem with cult memebers is that while they're in the cult , it's a fanatical, unreasoning identity that consumes their worldview to thereal exclusion of any other point of view--and when they exit, they are left with such a horrible taste from it all that they are skittish for a long time after about anything that smells of cult, or of religion.
on the other hand, a normal, healthy, contemporary person with the average human humility about the creator and our place in it all, does not approach their life or their worship--or their identity--in the extreme and fanatical way that a cultist does/did.
so you could find that reasonable, intelligent, believing, devout, honest, and healthily reverent jewish woman at temple or socially in its radius, have a real relationship, real love, real affectin, and a mutual sense of how you would want to create your home and what you would want to tell your children about how to live.

you will flat out never have that with this premie--not while she's in the cult, and not after ( if ever) she breaks away.
sincerely.
kiss her goodbye and know that you are leaving her to a fate that you realize that you, by your singular self, are not big enough to influence, save yourself the time and wasted hours, and search for a worthy partner where you know they congregate and share your sentients.

in a sense she is sick and you are not a doctor. much as you might yearn to cure her, you don't have the education or experience to, and as of yet, she doesn't think she's sick, nor has she asked you or anyone else to help her get over her state.

i say this in all seriousness. I tried it. you can't help someone who thinks there's nothing wrong with them, and who hasn't asked you to. all you'll do is waste your precious time and hurt yourself. really.

really.

and I'm half jewish (father's side).

pointed truth to remember, here:
she thinks she's gonna convert you, and you think you're gonna convert her.
ths means that neither one of you accepts the other or cherishes them for who they/you actually are, how they are, right now, today. this is doomed to fail, for that reason.
you can't marry someone unless you prize them for who they are, how they are, naturally, just the way they come. people are not fixer-uppers, like houses or cars or thrift shop finds. especially in matters as profound as worship and beleif--if there isn't consonance and resonance and agreement at first encounter, it isn't going to appear later as a result of one of you pressuring the other or 'converting the other over to your way of thinking.
in fact, if you did succeed, i suspect you wouldnt value it after all, would always be privately thinking it wasn't real on the other person's part.
so you don't want it after all. you want the other person to have their own mind and their own reasons that have nothing to do with your own reasons. or you will never respect them as an individual worthy of walking thru life with you.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:25:32 (EST)
From: A Friend
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: my take? forget marriage
Message:
Janet

what a wonderful, honest heartfelt reply!100% right on. Indeed this Maharaji is Mr Carr's girlfriend's rebbe ! Right or wrong. And if she continues after all the info is available to her, she should be wished a good life, and allowed to move on.

She's a terminal shiksa at this point, from a Jewish point of view. And Maharaji's a shmuck. Neilther of those labels will change in the foreseeable future.

A Friend

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:28:26 (EST)
From: the poor girl
Email: None
To: jonathan carr
Subject: better start running..
Message:
before she gets hooked to the most evil cult in the world: judahism!
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:51:12 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: the poor girl
Subject: Oh I don't know...
Message:
before she gets hooked to the most evil cult in the world: judahism!


---

My vote goes to Catholicism, although it really isn't a cult by accepted definition, it is truly a mind warping religion. But then, all religions suck, IMO.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:59:45 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Oh I don't know...
Message:
I was a Roman Catholic. It's a cult. A giganic one, but nontheless, a cult.:)
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:24:11 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: jonathan carr
Subject: This thread definitely *** BEST OF ***
Message:
Extremely interesting. Thank you Jonathan
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:15:35 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: jonathan carr
Subject: Hi Jonathan
Message:
Suggestions:

Number one, take care of yourself. Under no circumstances get sucked in yourself, even if you think it's necessary to save your relationship. If you ever start thinking like that, the relationship is probably over.

Keep in mind that when push comes to shove your friend will probably choose M over you. I know that's hard to imagine, but it may well be true and it's important for you to realize that. That's part of the reason so many premie marriages fall apart, because there is a third person there, the imaginary friend, Maharaji, who continually emphasises that the "love" he has is superior to the "love" people share with each other. The flip side of that is that the "love" the two of you have is inferior in her eyes.

I think the best thing is to just be informed yourself and just pipe in when you think you can. Clearly, the sexual transgressions of Maharaji, as well as his failure to stop child sexual abuse in his cult (and moreover his current failure to try to rectify any of it) is quite damning, and something you might ask your friend to consider. In my experience, these revelations are sometimes strong enough to get premies to begin re-evaluating the whole trip. That's happened quite a lot, actually, and may get your friend to begin thinking for herself again when it comes to Maharaji.

Be yourself, be honest, be there for her, but realize she is in a cult, so she isn't thinking the least bit objectively about Maharaji. It's very hard for her to do that. For her to be where she is now took an immense amount of repression and discouting her own thoughts and she is probably used to doing that. So, you have to be careful, because she may begin to see YOU as the source of doubts and it might just end your relationship.

On the other hand, the vast majority of people leave the cult at some point. It's just hard to say when.

Good luck.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:31:31 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: jonathan carr
Subject: Hi Jonathan, I liked your post
Message:
Wow dude, you really know how to introduce yourself. You have a lot on your plate right now, don't ya?

Gee, when it comes to relationships, nobody wants to be too quick to offer advice, because it's such a delicate matter. Best thing is to take it slow, but take it. Know what I mean? Don't let this topic and your newfound information sit on the back burner. It's important to make a stand and let your girlfriend know where it is and let her know you're willing to talk (that means words shared by the rest of our known society) to her about her experience and importantly, WHY she is saying what she says.

Premies diffuse requests for answers about knowledge by claiming there are no words. This true, for the simple reason that there are few words to express NOTHING.
Premies thrive in public programs mostly because of the group high and expectation. But are they that way without the group and cult leader?

Did you see your girlfriend differently at a program than you do the rest of the time? Does she credit Maha for every blue sky day and naturally pleasing moment? Does she seem easily confused by ways of this world? It's also very important to notice patterns of communication.

You need to be firm and consistant, yet open to listen, and best of all, loving. As a man and a potentially devoted husband, you deserve a loving and devoted wife. Devoted to you!!!! Not a swindler in Malibu.
Which, sadly, is true.

We are people who have been there and done that Jonathan. We know about the thought terminating jargon and how it works. have you read any of Rick Ross's stuff about cults? Really insightful man.

Here's a little suggestion: Perhaps you can give your girlfriend a copy of this article before laying all the EPO stuff on her. Get her to talk about the article. Then ask her another time to comment on the similarity of EPO material. She'll have 50% convinction which will be a good head start.

Lots of good stuff at Rick Ross' site. http://www.rickross.com/rickross.html

I linked you to go article to get started on his site at top of page

Good luck

p.s. RichMandrake was right. Majority of premies in ashrams were Catholics and Jewish. I was even told that when I was in the cult.
[ Public perception vs Research ]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:40:45 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: jonathan carr
Subject: A suggestion
Message:
Read up on all the stuff about m's representatives sexually abusing premies and children.
Present to your partner the allegations and see if she expresses any concern about m's silence on the whole issue throught the years.
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:35:38 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: jonathan carr
Subject: Welcome and thanks for great post
Message:
I really enjoyed your post and hope to hear more from you and to get to know you better.

I hope (and am fairly sure) that your relationship will continue to grow and become a very special friendship like I have enjoyed for 20 years if that is what you want. If it isn't religion which is the problem, there's sure to be another - money, sex or in-laws. Look on the bright side: at least you don't have a mother-in-law. :) People don't change or learn all about each other overnight. Patience is the answer if the love is mutual.

The big difference between your fiancee and most of us here is that she is a Hindu first and a premie second. I lived with Hindu premies in South Africa where I was born and saw that there is quite a big difference between them and those of us who converted from Judaism or Christianity to Maharajism which is simply a Hindu cult just as Moonie-ism is a christian cult. Rev Rawat is a lot like a charismatic revivalist preacher to Hindus.

(BTW it seems that the largest group to become premies in the west were lapsed Catholics followed by Jews. Protestants seemed to find it a bit flambuoyant.)

It is also a cult in the tradition of Krishnaism; in other words it is a religion of bliss/ecstatic love and not of morals as is the Judeo-christian religion. It will be hard to shock your fiancee with the guru's corrupt behaviour EXCEPT perhaps the fact that he is NOT a vegetarian unless she has forsaken that part of her religion.

I'm not very judgmental or moralistic but there are two things about Rev Rawat that stick in my throat worse than the others. The main one is that he killed a Hindu premie in a car accident and ran away from the scene of the crime and let a lowly Hindu cult member take the rap and the other is his sexual abuse of his female students, specifically blonde western premies. I think your fiancee would be a bit insulted that he does not find Hindu women sexy. You can read about this latter corruption in Joe's post below.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:03:43 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: jonathan carr
Subject: Thanks and welcome..
Message:
Hi Jonathan. Hope you stick around - fascinating perspective you bring to things. We have a couple of regulars here who might be able to offer advice on your love-life predicament - Timmi and JohnT. Both non-premies with premie spouses. Both, I am sure, will relate to a lot you have shared here.

I think it is especially healthy for premies to read the thoughts of someone who walks in off the street like you have done - possibly jolts them back to a reminder of how the real world is, and how they themselves used to be. Yes, of course, M's talks are bland, banal, unfocused and unstructured. Empty. The filter of a real world pair of eyes is all it takes to see this cult for what it is.

Glad you dropped by, anyway. Cheers! (and hope you apply a similarly skeptical filter to your revisits to orthodox Judaism).

Nige the happy atheist.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:15:40 (EST)
From: jonathan carr
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Thanks and welcome..
Message:
thanks so much! You're quite kind to welcome me. After all, I was afraid that bringing up this stuff might offend some people. As for my brand of Judaism, nooo, not orthodoxy! I am from the Reform branch. But it was funny. After the event, we went for a stroll down the crowded Lincoln pedestrian mall. There were Hasidic Jews there, handing out free menorahs and they asked if I was Jewish and if I wanted to don teffilin, which I did. They asked if we wanted to come back for a Hanukah party, which we did. Anyway, there I was among so many Maharaji followers, donning teffilin right in front of them. They must have thought I'm weird, which is really fine with me.
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:53:21 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: jonathan carr
Subject: re. orthodox
Message:
Funny things is, I didn't even mean 'orthodox' in that sense. I was forgetting the orthodox/reform divergence and was thinking more of Judaism being an orthodox religion. Perhaps 'mainstream' would have been a better word.

Anyway, for what it's worth there seems to be quite a large sector of premies and exes with a Jewish background - perhaps disproportiately so. The same seems to go for Roman Catholics.

Nige the died-again Baptist.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:05:16 (EST)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: jonathan carr
Subject: Hey that was my friend, Rabbi Katz
Message:
Hi Jonathan:
I am jewish also, but not even reform, though I do have some hassidic friends, including the guy who assaulted you with the tefilim. Nice guy though.
Anyway, monotheism and M. are not really compatible. Why would one want to join a cult anyway?
I have an aunt (my favorite aunt) who is in the cult. It's very difficult to talk to her about it. last time I did, she got very upset and asked me never to mention it again. Too bad. Premies have to turn a blind eye to the facts, otherwise, their world falls apart.
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:59:05 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: jonathan carr
Subject: See Timmi's post below
Message:
She is in the same boat as you. Also John T (never a premie). I'm not sure where his website is. But I'm sure that other people similarly situated will put in there two cents to your post. You have my sympathy. My husband smelled the coffee before I did, and I was exiting by the time he was pretty completely disillusioned, so we didn't have to suffer over it.

Bests,

F
[ Timmi's post ]

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:34:41 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: See Timmi's post below
Message:
Thanks. I'm wondering about all the people at the event, and worldwide, who are causing others to suffer. At the face of it, there is no harm done to others, except that these fools leave others behind. My girlfriend's parents died when she was very young, and an older sibling and his family raised her. Now that she's in the US, she has two sisters living here, but both of them are opposed to M. So, she's kinda excommunicated from her family. If she and I split, then she's all alone. The people she would fall on would be other M followers. So, I feel an enormous guilt about not helping her get straight. Besides, I do love her and care about her. But many times even before now, I've seriously questioned our relationship.
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:55:42 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Welcome Jonathan!
Message:
Dear Jonathan:

First, pay no attention to the troll below named ''SC.''

I first want to welcome you to the forum. It took great ourage to post. As others have told you, you are not alone.

My situation was opposite from yours. I was the premie. The year I left the ashram, Jan, 1981, I met my husband (never a premie) in October of that year. I was uninvolved for 16 years, but my belief system was very strong, I was indoctrinated during the heavy devotional, worship him as lord, era of the mid-to-late 70's.

In 1997 I tried to go back to Maharaji/ElanVital, I still believed m to be god, so believed that ''EvenInYourDarkestHourIWillNotAbandonYou'' bullshit. It took about a year or so before I just gave it all up, especially after coming to EPO and reading here.

My point is that my husband worried about me during that last year or so but he was patient. He knew what I thought m was: the Lord of the Universe.

If he had given me an ultimatum about him or m, I don't know what I would have done, in fact, we separated for about three weeks, but were able to work it all out. If the relationship is strong you will weather this out.

Just try to be gentle, don't force it, give her stuff to read that is not too confrontational.

It depends upon her belief systems. And my advice is worth what you paid for it:):)

You made me laugh when I read this:

But really I'm a particularly bad candidate for any cult other than the one I might start myself one day. Well, don't hold your breath.

Good to keep a sense of humor.

Well, take a deep breath and don't panic. Feel free to post again.

Best,
Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:54:05 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: jonathan carr
Subject: Bravo Jonathon.
Message:
Thanks for that very insightful post. You seem to have your head screwed on properly. I wish mine was.

Lots of 'Christians' were gullible enough to join the cult, and even more Hindus. Your significant other is right, it's not about religion. It's about money and a Michael Jackson type character who thinks he created the Universe.

When I left the cult, my wife was still right into it. Here's what I did.

I printed loads of stuff from EPO out and let her read it.

It worked. She left the cult and became a Catholic Nun.

If it doesn't work with your significant other, I'd just accept the fact that she's into a nutty religion and keep your bank accounts seperate.

Anth, I lied about the Catholic nun.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:08:35 (EST)
From: Jonathan carr
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Bravo Jonathon.
Message:
Thanks, AJW. I'll give it a try. Maybe I'll start with the 14 objections. As for my head being screwed on properly, I don't think it's as properly tightened as you think. But I appreciate your help and advice. As for money, we already have separate bank accounts, but I'm worried. If she were to continue with Maharaji and we were to continue living together, what can I expect her to do with money? I have an idea: she spent some of next semester's tuition money on the event trip, but I did cover much of the expenses. Would she buy videos at the expense of, say, diapers?

Thanks again!

J

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:47:13 (EST)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: Jonathan carr
Subject: Re: Bravo Jonathon.
Message:
Jonathon, I believe you love your girlfriend. I love my husband. We've only been married a few months. I knew he was into rawat and 'practiced' knowledge every day. The things I didn't know though are legion. Financially, we are not in good shape. Government housing, ancient barely running car, etc. The money that goes to the Fatguru is a real issue with me and a problem. I'm thinking 'Electric bill' and he is sending money to EV, Visions, whatever. Makes me sick. Also, I had no idea how rejected and isolated I would feel when every day, sometimes more than once a day, he locks himself in the next room to practice. Yes, locks. I hear the lock click. And, of course, the world must stop during a broadcast. Fortunately, we truly cannot afford for him to go to an event, so that has not come up. I thought he was going to go to Miami anyway, but he didn't. I am sure it will come up before long, as he has told me of his 'need to sit in front of Maharaji'. It's more than a bit sick, but he's been doing it for 29 years. I could go on for a long time, as the people here know! I think, though, that the biggest problem, day in and day out, are my feelings when he shuts himself away from me. In my mind, he is so clearly pushing me away to do what rawat told him to do. And not for just an hour. Rarely does he spend only an hour practicing. Often it is longer, and frequently more than once a day. I know why so few premies I am acquainted with have 'real' jobs. They don't have time to work and 'practice'. Do you know any premies with real jobs that pay well? Or any who have actually acquired a pension of any kind? You might check that out. None of the premies I know personally have a regular, decent job or any kind of retirement or pension. They have always quit their jobs to go running after rawat. Borrowed money from anywhere they could get it and taken off. I know this was a long time ago, but in 1972, several hundred of them took off to India to do service. They just up and left family, job, whatever. These people still think he is god and horde their mementos and pictures of rawat in his Krishna crap, and all other kinds of things you can imagine. And lots you can't imagine and wouldn't believe! Sorry to ramble on. Not a good day here! Please write me if you care to, Jonathon. I'd love to have a network of significant others to connect with who are trying to have a real life and love their mate in spite of rawat. Best of luck.
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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 01:28:44 (EST)
From: beverly
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: Bravo Jonathon.
Message:
I recieved k maybe 2 years ago. At that time although I was leary and suspicious, my significant other was deeply involved in m and has been since ashram days, so I was curious and wanted to see for myself. I went to the recent Seattle event where a premie mentioned the 'other website' when I was wondering why the strict security (they went through everyone's pocketbooks!) and she tweaked my interest. What other website? So, while my partner has been out to sea, I discovered this website and others. I am thankful for the information revealed and yet I am concerned about my relationship when I consider m a greedy fake and he considers him lord. It has been helpful to read your messages. The financial issues are indeed disturbing in the relationship equation.
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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:24:07 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: beverly
Subject: Beverly, can you share more..
Message:
about the Seattle program?

Did they really go through your pocketbooks?

Also, we have heard that someone at the Philadelphia program confronted m with 'that other site', but I don't think we have heard it about the Seattle program.

Can you share any more information and insights?

Has your significant other seen epo?
Curious to see what their reaction might be.
Generally, long time believers try to scoff at epo, and regard it as lies from pissed off premies, but when they actually sit down and read everything, things begin to change.(most of the time this will only happen if someone close to them seriously requests them to do so)
Many, many premies have become exes as a result of epo.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 21:41:19 (EST)
From: Beverly
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: Re: Beverly, can you share more..
Message:
RE Seattle event:

Yes they did actually go through my purse while I went through the metal detector. Funny that they didn't bother about the pocketknife in my purse. When they asked me if I would mind them looking through my purse, I said 'yes I mind, would you like me to go through your purse?' The responce seemed to make her take even more time with my purse.

All the comments from audience members were glowing loving remarks from premies who have had k for 20-30 years (I always wonder where all the 4 year, 6 year, etc people are). But one interesting note was when someone wanted to give m something he made by hand and m just thanked him but made it pretty apparent he wouldn't be accepting that gift.

The nice part about the event was that there were no EV sales tables set up (and especially so near the holiday season) and we could place our own (the suggested $100) donatation into wooden boxes. Front row seats seemed to be saved for Seattle upper level premies.

RE my premie partner

He definately thinks EPO is just a couple of pissed off premies and is deeply indoctrinated in m and the organization. He is one of the major donors so you can imagine they (EV) will not like to loose their grasp. He claims he has seen EPO site but maybe hasn't really checked it out or if he has he doesn't care he loves his lord. So what if he helped to buy that jet or yacht, if that is what his lord wants why not he told me the other day. I'll assume our relationship will get difficult (imagine me at one at his intro video events handing out EPO website info to aspirants). He of course tells me to go on my 'experience' and feeling and that is what I tell him I am goinbg on....it doesn't feel right. Why does truth need to be secret?

He is actually still away from home and the funny thing is he called to 'thank' (in a sarcastic tone) the premie that told me about EPO and I need to call her and THANK her!!!

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 02:02:45 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: beverly
Subject: Hi beverly
Message:
Hi Beverly and thanks for your post. I hope you've taken time to read a good deal of the information posted on ex-premie.org.

How did you hear about the 'other website'? Was it in passing with another premie or was it mentioned during the program with M?

Your contributions and insights are valuable to all of us. Feel free to email if you like.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 21:46:52 (EST)
From: beverly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Hi beverly
Message:
Dear Marianne,

It was in passing from another premie when I was wondering why all the security. She replied that there is this other group. The angry ones.

It was enough to spark my curiousity and certainly I will enjoy bringing this 'ever so innocently' when the instructors call me to see how I am doing.

believe me I have been doing alot of reading./...the past week I have never been at this computer so much. I was obsessed when I first found this site and this has been the first time I have ever posted anything and responded. I feel that information is valuable and we need a chance to bring what has been happening in this crazy organization to the light. Enough of the secrets and deception.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 23:22:35 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: beverly
Subject: Hi again, Beverly
Message:
Beverly, Thanks for responding to JimS and to me. I had the same reaction to EPO when I first found it, even though I had been out for so long. Found it in 1999 and I had left in 1976. I devoured the site and the related ones too. It was Drek's site that made me feel I was in good company, because of all the irreverant and truly hysterical comic jabs (and photos) about M and the cult.

The best part of what is done here is providing information to people so that they can make an informed decision about their involvement with M and the cult. And, it's a good group of people, all across the world, who are helping folks to get out if that's what they want to do.

If the premie trolls hassle you -- as they seem to be doing to the new posters of late -- I hope you will ignore them. Their only purpose here is to attack and disrupt, and to try to silence exes whom they find to be particularly effective.

We're looking forward to hearing more from you.

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 02:48:16 (EST)
From: beverly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Hi again, Beverly
Message:
Just got an email from the Seattle group looking for funding after what had looked to me like a very successful event in December.
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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 04:20:37 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: beverly
Subject: Re: Hi again, Beverly
Message:
Hi Beverly. Just wanted to say welcome. Don't hesitate to email me if you want to. I'd like to get to know you and am terribly nosy but I don't expect everyone to tell their stories here. Anyway, I'd like to hear more about you.

I'm Patrick Conlon of San Francisco and fairly new to this forum too.

Does the Seattle community still have it's own hall? Seattle is smaller than SF and there are only 7 regular PWKs here.

I hope you are doing fine and that things are getting better all the time. :)

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 12:07:29 (EST)
From: Beverly
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Hi again, Beverly
Message:
Seattle seems to have a bigger community, they still have a hall and show videos. Where I live on the Olympic Peninsula there are about 5 active premies and probably half a dozen more who sometimes come to events around here. Probably all totaled we may have 15 over here, but I am not sure of Seattle's numbers. The first time I went there (for m's first satellite broadcast) there were lots of people there, 3 small rooms full.

I am doing fine and life is good but I need to get ready for a holiday dinner I am hosting today and am not ready. Bye!

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 13:38:47 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Beverly
Subject: Thanks, Beverly
Message:
Glad to hear that you're doing fine.

Happy holly daze!

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:47:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: God, Timmi
Message:
Timmi,

I'm so sorry to hear all that. Wish I could help. But alas ....

Hang in there, Timmi. This cult just might break apart and let your boy go sooner rather than later. Maybe yes, maybe no, but there definitely is some momentum in that direction.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:01:59 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: Bravo Jonathon.
Message:
Timmi:

I can relate to everything you said. Most importantly, I would like to help form that network of significant others who are trying to deal with their mate's involvement with Maharaji. My own perception of my dilemma is this: how can I abandon someone I love, especially when doing so would only push her closer to Maharaji and further away from real family and friends?

I can relate to your feeling 'rejected and isolated.' Believe me, I'm respectful of others need to be alone, but, on weekends there is such a double-standard in our house. For her, it's fine to demand that I turn down the tv volume to an inaudible level. But it's also fine for her to object to what I like to do: go out to flea markets, since they take more time. So basically, she wants me to stay home and silently wait while she's practicing, or if I leave without her, then I get the royal guilt trip.

From what little I've seen, Maharaji's followers are a mixed breed, financially and otherwise. It's hard to tell from appearances, but the people at the event seemed to represent a broad spectrum. As for the only two families I know, they are both lower middle class with non-corporate, self-employed type jobs, without pension. One might have an inheritance.

I do know this: following Maharaji costs some serious money. For example, the Dec. event would easily have cost $650 a person ($150 weekend rate airfare + $200 hotel + $50 car rental + $130 food and miscellaneous + $120 Elan Vital registration fee). That's quite a bit of money to spend on one weekend. If a person goes to a few events each year, that's gonna get downright expensive. To compare to an organized religion (my apologies, athiests) one event would more than pay for a family's yearly annual membership dues. My point is that while Maharaji sometimes makes fun of organized religion for being organized, his own brand of religion is costing his followers much more money. Elan Vital offers neither travel or lodging subsidies even for their smartcard-carrying members.

Anyway, living with my girlfriend has its great moments. Maybe she and I will be able to resolve this issue. For the moment I'm enlisting the help of a good therapist, some good family members, and some good new friends like yourself. We'll be in touch.

jonathan

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 20:08:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: I'm not sure about that premise
Message:
That was 'premise' not 'premies'. I'm sure about them.

No, Jonathan, I'm not sure that leaving her would send her any deeper into Maharaji's arms. She's already there, man. It's not as if there are any ashrams or similar compounds any longer. If you split, she might just gravitate in the same orbit she's in now. YOUR life would likely change a lot more than hers, that's my guess.

Jonathan, I know you can't present an ultimatum on her, Maharaji or me. That would never work. What might, though, is a different kind of ultimatum. You might demand that she engage in some substantive discussions about him. If she won't do that, then, really, think about what a large, large area of life she's barred you from. It's not as if fealty to this 'Master' is as insignifcant and distinct an interest as archery, say. She doesn't just go to the range a couple of times a week and that's that. No, she's thinking about this damn cult leader day and night. Probably more than she's thinking of you, or at least sometimes that's likely true. She might also trust his judgment and even his 'love' more than yours. He's doing everything but sleeping with her in a sense. Sad to say but true if she's really into this mess.

So, my advice is to get some sort of ultimatum out there and resolve yourself first to really mean it. I'm sorry but that's the only real viable route youv'e got to asserting any power at all in this situation. And if you don't do that, the cult has it all.

By the way, there's a very funny movie this reminds me of. It was on last night but I saw it years ago and never forgot it: UFOria with Cindy Williams, Harry Dean Stanton and Fred Ward. She's a simple, supermarket chekout girl in Arizona who believes in UFOs. I won't tell you what happens but would love to talk about it with you if and when you see it. You and the gf might want to watch it together.

Best of luck.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 21:45:08 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: I'm not sure about that premise
Message:
Jim:

Thanks for the concerned advice and movie selection. I'm taking both. But I've got to be honest here: part of me wanted Puff-Daddy's message so badly. Meaning, wouldn't meditation have been a wonderful thing in my life! And if I wasn't convinced of the truth, i.e. if Puff-Daddy weren't an honest-to-goodness fake, wouldn't it be wonderful to take thousand-dollar weekend getaways to tourist destinations, only to hear him speak about the bountiful greatness inside of me? And, between event times, why not languish on a warm beach in mid-winter, slurping a real gelato? The thought seemed real, romantic, and wonderful. So, you can tell I am going through a paradigm shift. Before Monday, when I first discovered EPO, Puff-Daddy (Maharaji) and Nollij (gift of knowledge) seemed strange, tolerable, and maybe enjoyable.

You see, the deal was if I were to accept nollij, she would convert to my religion. That's kinda why we've survived living together for one year. Granted, I have already compromised on many things: the picture of Puff-Daddy on my dresser, the home video and cassette screenings (until the cheap EV VCR tapes broke the VCR), and my accompanying her to broadcasts. It's not all her fault: we both agreed to try each other's spiritual practices. I will say she hasn't kept her promise as much as me. Nonetheless, it's hard to go up against all this when living with someone I love and care about.

I believe what you say about her unquestionable fondness and pure admiration for Puff-Daddy. That's true. But so far, I've tried to have substantive conversations, to no avail. Her line of argument is 'ex-premies did something wrong and are being punished,' and 'I'm not concerned about M's personal life, it's about knowledge,' and 'Listen to your heart, not your brain.' So, since Monday it's been hard to talk with her.

You may be right about this relationship. But maybe there's a chance. I'll need to work on my own resolve first, as you can tell.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:55:01 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: I have a project for your girlfriend
Message:
This is the second time you mentioned the following:

I believe what you say about her unquestionable fondness and pure admiration for Puff-Daddy. That's true. But so far, I've tried to have substantive conversations, to no avail.

Her line of argument is 'ex-premies did something wrong and are being punished, '

Ask her what the ex-premies did and/or what are they doing? Make sure she accounts for the fact that there are new exes all the time who have never met each other or know that each other exists. And ask her to find out HOW they are being punished and, oh yea~ who's punishing them. Tell her she needs to be able to flesh out that retort.

And than please let us know the result.

p.s. Did you read SC's inflamatory response. premies are not supposed to substantiate their spin control answers. Shit! some people were payed good money to make sure premies get thought-terminating responses to real cult-questioning questions.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 22:34:34 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: MIND MANIPULATION alert!
Message:
That's as sick as it gets folks...

Telling someone what to confront their partner with.

Deborah Rose - I'm on your case you sick fuck.

Jonathan. For goodness sake watch out for these desperados suddenly taking such an 'interest' in you.

Why are they?

Work it out for youself bro!!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 03:26:30 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Jonathan, how about this?
Message:
Your girlfriend said: ''I'm not concerned about M's personal life, it's about knowledge.''

You can read about the ''knowledge'' techniques on EPO but I can give you some extra tips if you want. I've been doing it every day for nearly 29 years. I'm still trying to understand it for myself without all the Maharajism concepts about it but I enjoy it a lot.

If it's all about K and not about Rev Rawat, as your girlfriend insists, then she will have to concede that you have indeed gotten K and she therefore should agree to be Bat Mitvahed. ;)

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 18:20:24 (EST)
From: Most premies
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: only do one hour
Message:
of meditation. You should learn the techniques from the EPO site and do them around him. This may prevent him from locking the door anyway.
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 18:56:50 (EST)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Most premies
Subject: They usually SLEEP
Message:
Premies MAYBE do an hour of meditation a day. Most people I know sleep through half of it, and if they pretend to do more, they are just sleeping, or daydreaming more.

Maharaji used to direct premies to do TWO hours of meditation a day, one in the morning, one at night, and then, for awhile he wanted FOUR hours a day. Plus, he used to command premies to "meditate constantly" which was just following your breath at all times, usually doing "nectar" which was trying to stick your tongue into your nasal passage and drink post-nasal drip. It was a real treat, let me tell you.

You have to make a distinction between 'meditation' and what premies do when they 'practice.' LOTS of people do 'meditation' and they have no different experience than premies have. The difference is that premies believe that what they are doing is a lot more than 'meditation' and most believe it is some kind of direct connection to Maharaji who is actually controlling the experience they are having.

If they have a good 'experience' either in meditation or anywhere in their lives, it's Maharaji. Bad experiences are either due to themselves, or it's Maharaji 'teaching them something.'

Timmi, what you are saying really hits home. I can just feel what you said. It's one sick trip, but can be somewhat harmless, unless it gets people to do self-destructive things in their lives, like send Maharaji money he doesn't need (and since he's worth $50 million he doesn't need it), which they need for themselves of their families, or wreck their relationships, or make them weird (very common), or lead to an extreme lack of worldly ambition, or whatever.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:29:45 (EST)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: Jonathan carr
Subject: Jonathan..A Few Words about the '70s
Message:
Jonathan,
I just read your Post and thought I'd respond with a word or two. Your wife received knowledge 3 years ago. This would be somewhat of a rarity in the United States as 'propagation' (the recruitment and intitiation of new people into the cult) has been almost non-existent here for most of the last decade or so. The Great majority of Maharaji followers were recruited in the '70s.

Because your girfriend has received knowledge so recently she may not be fully aware of the historical context for Maharaji's present deceits. In the early '70s until the early '80s Maharaji Strongly Implied Divine Authority and presented himself as the Lord God in a Human Form. In order to 'receive knowledge' many of us had to swear our belief in him as the Lord ..and take an oath to give our Lives to him and his service. Invoking his implied Divine Authority, Maharaji then suggested that we should all move into 'Ashrams' (monasteries for his devotees) and give all our worldly goods to him. He then enslaved many of us in servitude and poverty...Working for him..and giving him the fruits of all our labors (MONEY) which he used (and still uses) to live lavishly .

In the Early '80s (circa 1983) Maharaji disbanded the Ashrams throwing the residence of these ashrams out on the streets, for the most part with no money (having given it all to him) and little saleable job skills. He also changed his presentation such that he no longer overtly claimed to be the 'Superior Power in Person'. He asked that all Publications that had his previous presentation be 'returned'..For the most part, these publications were burned and buried...thus allowing him to deny that he had enslaved many of us through his claims of Divinity and Divine Authority to tell us what to do. (It was called 'agya' ..the Order of the Lord). He never explained any of this and left us to form our own tortured understandings and rationalizations.

This is all absolutely true. Most of the people you read who post on this forum lived through this period of Maharaji's Perpetration. Now Maharaji flat out denies that any of this happened. He runs a nice little religion that nets him beaucoup Cash and Lots of Power Adoration and Worship. It is not without payoff to his followers. Knowledge is a nice little meditation. The experience of a bunch of people focusing their energy and projections on Maharaji in a group situation is at times blissful..at times cathartic. But its ALL Based on Lies...Lies like Maharaji stating that he never claim to be 'the Superior Power in Person'..Lies like the techniques of knowledge and the experience of knowledge belong to Maharaji....and the Big Lie..that forms the Foundation for Maharaji's little Cult: That Maharaji is a Master of the experience of Life..worthy of respect and able to lead others in the path of realization. As you have most likely read, Jonathan the Truth is just the Opposite. Maharaji is a chain smoking woman abusing alcholic. He is petty, vindictive and immature. He is the exact opposite of what he portrays himself to be on stage..and he goes to GREAT lengths to hide all of this from his followers.

Your wife sounds like she is practicing a nice little religion..with some nice little payoffs. Except for the money she wastes seeing this guy, it may have very little negative consequences for her at this time. But that does not mean that it is not without long term effects. Maharaji has used and hurt many people badly. He has taken peoples fortunes..He has enslaved people in his servitude and in the false belief that one should spend their time listening to and following him.

You are a Jew. I am not, but many of my friends are and I have great respect for the Jewish tradition. It seems to be one of action and accomplishment. A friend of mine once explained to me that Jews are taught that their salvation lies in action..in accomplishment..in deeds...The whole sage of the Jewish people seems to support that. Jews are a prolifically accomplished people who have given much to the world on many levels. Premies (devotees of Maha) on the other hand have spent much of their life focusing their energy on sticking their thumbs in their ears and blindly following their master. Their Master still encourages only listening to him...He offers bliss and yet ultimately numbs people in a self fullfilling delusion.

Anyway, Jonathan, Ive started a rant..and that was not my intention. I Just wanted to say hi and maybe warn you that your girlfriend may not be aware of the full extent of Maharaji's deceit. And she may not want to know. Many people are content to keep and protect their delusions..It offers some safety and reassurance even while it stops any real growth. I hope this is not the case with your girlfriend..In any case...Thanx for coming on the Forum....and I wish you All the Best....Richmandrake..

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:11:05 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: That was a fantastic summary
Message:
Rich,

Please don't resort to self denigratation, that was not a rant at all. All of your points were excellent, concise, and purposeful.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:21:27 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jonathan carr
Subject: Wow Johnny...
Message:
Now you gotta be careful bro!

It'll be diapers one week, your Hanaka trust fund the next.
If you let this zealot girlfrind of yours loose any longer she'll start slushing money from the Bar Mitzvah social club Christmas fund to spend on expensive jet fuel and CD's recorded by the cult leader.

Dump her quick before she ousts you, she's only after your money!

Then talk to your Rabbi brother.

There again...I think his first suggestion will be NOT to seek guidence and counselling on such holy and religious matters from an internet chatroom.

BTW: I loved you work on the KTS site!!!

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:27:06 (EST)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: Wow Johnny...
Message:
SC, do everyone a favor and get the hell away from here. You are pathetic. Could pity you but for the fact you are so loathesome. Go kiss the Fatguru's feet and maybe you'll feel better.
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 10:44:35 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: SC
Subject: Re: Wow Johnny...
Message:
Now you gotta be careful bro!

It'll be diapers one week, your Hanaka trust fund the next.
If you let this zealot girlfrind of yours loose any longer she'll start slushing money from the Bar Mitzvah social club Christmas fund to spend on expensive jet fuel and CD's recorded by the cult leader.

Dump her quick before she ousts you, she's only after your money!

Then talk to your Rabbi brother.

There again...I think his first suggestion will be NOT to seek guidence and counselling on such holy and religious matters from an internet chatroom.

BTW: I loved you work on the KTS site!!!


---

SC-Mr. David Roupell-Mr. Premie:

You obviously know the determination of devotees like yourself to spend money in a fashion similar to your puffy-faced leader. My girlfriend already broke the piggy bank after ruining the VCR. My only question: if M's message is so important, why is it propagated on such shoddy, cheap-quality VCR tapes? Guess you know what I really want/need for Hanukah this year.

Possibly the only redeeming quality of Rawat is that he doesn't charge membership dues. But the good part of my religion is that I am allowed to question. You see, my religion actually encourages thought (aka your doubt-maker). There is also such a great wealth of culture. All you guys get is to go to expensive tourist traps.

The best part of my religion is after 'an event' I don't feel the need to cry, have a splitting headache, or beg for more. I can just leave, or socialize, and get some coffee and dessert. We don't even have to wear armbands or carry 'smartcards.' Yes, we sometimes listen to a little klezmer, but can you really compare that to the high-pitched, soporific whining of a fat man singing raga to a dance beat? We also like to dance after our 'events.' Premies just begged for more.

Hey, no religion is perfect. Mine just might be a little safer for the children. I would hate to think what M's version of Bat Mitzvah would be.

I'm unclear what the KTS site is. Are you giving me credit for that?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 03:06:55 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Do you know David Roupell, Johnny?
Message:
I liked this line of yours: ''Hey, no religion is perfect. Mine just might be a little safer for the children.''

Come to think of it pederasty doesn't seem to be a specialty of Rabbis as it is with RC priests and Maharaji's mahatmas...oh, and Sai Baba.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 00:18:03 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Re: Wow Johnny...
Message:
Id like to give you credit for good non-fiction, but you make it hard.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 23:02:00 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Johnny...
Message:
Good as you are, do you also cross-dress in Malasia?
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 23:12:22 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Hi Johnny...
Message:
'My only question: if M's message is so important, why is it propagated on such shoddy, cheap-quality VCR tapes?'

My only answer: M's message is available in CD Rom and also DVD's.

And well done for remaining reasonably polite on a thread that includes some truly awful people you would never want to spend a moment with in the real world.

Sady, if you hang about here, you'll find that grim reality out for yourself.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:51:31 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: SC
Subject: Re: Hi Johnny...
Message:
SC:

Didn't know M has DVD's! The two other local people in our area only have videos, and bunches of them.

Just out of curiousity, why do you hang out here? Are you fighting what you term 'the grim reality'? Or are you undecided about M and/or his message?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:57:31 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Bit of both J
Message:
Some cool people here. As you can see.

Gotta try and dodge the warpos though...

You're not the same j up at the top advocating Class Action are you? No, I don't believe it!

Hope I'm not getting you confused with another shmuck I know.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:55:55 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Spot on Jonathan--very impressive [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:06:41 (EST)
From: SC appears to know you, Jonathan,
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: SC is a premie named David Roupell [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:17:46 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: SC appears to know you, Jonathan,
Subject: Indeed he does
Message:
But you don't...

do you Mr C?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:51:47 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Then why not say your name?
Message:
If you know Jonathan then tell him who you are politely instead of skulking behind anonymity like a weasel.

No, I don't know you and I don't want to know you for reasons like this incident - sneaky and creepy, bro.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:11:53 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: welcome Jonathon Ignore em Pat ignore em! nt
Message:
t
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 14:09:51 (EST)
From: PatC...I'll ignore them, mags
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Just trying to warn Jonathan this time. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:37:43 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pull your skirt down Patsy
Message:
For your elucidation and ongoing education Pat, let me hereby inform you that in the HUGE cyberworld of newsnets, chatrooms and bbs there is a coded language understood by 'insiders' who also use code names to identify themselves to each other. It's all very simple and easy. We all know who we are. No use for 'real' names because this isn't the real world (sorry, but it really really isn't Pat) and we are all savvy and mature enough not to resort to threats of 'exposure' during disagreements or scurry hiding behind clique ridden forums where the status quo is status no go. You'll get the picture as time moves along. It's a much bigger picture than you think...

...but look, I understand. I know it must feel INCREDIBLY important to have made it as high up as 'assistant' forum administrator on a 28 bit unencrypted hotboards page!

It's a seriously high office Patsy, you go be careful now son!!!!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 16:38:44 (EST)
From: Check out
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Elk Interactive Problem Page...!
Message:
In the latest of a number of initiatives to help Maharaji in his work, spread His teachings, and promote understanding among People With Knowledge, we are excited to welcome you all to ‘ELK Interactive’ – the problem page tailored to meet your unique life experience needs. It is hoped this resource will not only facilitate a sharing of ‘that’ experience among People With Knowledge, but will help integrate their practice with those nitty-gritties of everyday experience which can all-too-often hinder our progress.

While earlier initiatives such as the Elan Vital press releases and Frequently Answered Questions have served a valuable purpose, it is crucial that we all keep moving along and evolving in accordance with Maharaji’s wishes. It is further recognised that sometimes even our best efforts have not been enough to realise Maharaji’s aims, and that we will, of necessity, fail on many occasions. However, I feel so much gratitude that any one of us should even find ourselves in a position to contribute in any way we can, and thus we should never be deterred from taking up whatever opportunity should arise to further Maharaji’s work.

Anyway, enough of this preamble – My name’s Mitch Dummkopf and it is my special privilege to host this exploratory multimedia page and, I hope, to give this task my every best effort and will continue to do so while this precious opportunity remains. Precious, indeed, just like every breath is precious, every moment in this life…

(Legal note: I have been asked to clarify that words of advice expressed on this page are mine and mine alone, that is to say, the thoughts of Mitch Dummkopf, in association with a number of specially-trained counsellors, and, as such, should in no way be construed as the express instruction, teaching, ‘agya’, nor any other form of communication from Maharaji himself or his family. Questions about Maharaji’s private life will not be entertained here, but details of both the sender’s query, along with their personal details will be forwarded to Mr Yoram Nice, who has volunteered to serve as an intermediary in such cases and will certainly take steps to see that the questioner’s comments are recorded and promptly acted upon.)

Already our phone lines, not to mention our snail and email boxes have been deluged from callers and readers. Let’s go over to the phone line. Hey! - this IS exciting. What an amazing opportunity. Hello and welcome, caller! You are the very first, and I hope not the last (ha-ha), caller to our problem page. How can I help?

Caller:

Hello… [sounds of crying].. Hello, is that Mike Dettmers?

Mitch Dummkopf:

Not quite (ha-ha!). It’s me, Mitch, here. Who am I talking to, please..?

Caller:

Are you there? [sniff].. Is Maharaji there?

MD:

Who is this please? Are you Janice..? – no? – ok, I see, ok, well could you then please leave your name with one of our switchboard operators before you ring off. What is your problem exactly, caller?

Caller:

It’s Maharaji. I just feel so… feel so powerless… so humbled..

MD:

A-ha… I think we can all understand that feeling. Can be pretty amazing, don’t you think…?

Caller:

Yes, I mean, no… Yes, amazing - always. Of course [sniff…] But I don’t know what to do. I mean right now. Maharaji loves me and wants me – I know that – of course he does - but I don’t know what to do about it. Just so powerless…

MD:

I know. Pretty amazing indeed. Sometimes we really don’t know how to deal with those kinds of feelings, do we? But I am not sure there is anything we need worry about, though. Do you?

Caller:

But I AM worried. What would YOU do if it happened to you, Mike? That’s why I am ringing…[sniffle] What should I do?

MD:

Can you be more specific? And it’s ‘Mitch’, not Mike. It seems something might be hindering your clarity and – who knows – maybe affecting your experience a little. Can you give us a clue, here, caller? I might be able to help. It has been known occasionally (ha-ha!). Anyway. Want to give me a try...?

Caller:

Well, it was after darshan, Amaroo, I was just feeling so much -

MD:

Er, sorry to interrupt you, caller. Nothing personal – I am intrigued - really. But some of those archaic terms like ‘darshan’ you are using will be lost on others reading and listening. Remember, Maharaji has moved on a long way – dropped the ‘Mahatma-ese’ once foisted upon him, and we should not go confusing his cultural heritage with his message… But no problem, and I think we catch your drift. Anyway, you are saying you were at the Australian event and, er, chanced to brush against Maharaji in person, then, felt somewhat overwhelmed by your feelings. Is that it? I am feeling my way, here… Maybe your boyfriend is a Person Who Wants to Receive Knowledge? And he’s jealous..? Quite a common problem. Totally unnecessary – shows a lack of clarity. Is that it..?

Caller:

Of course he’s bloody jealous. Who wouldn’t be? That’s the problem.

MD:

Hmm – I see. Thought so. I knew it. Really that is such a common thing. I guess it comes down to those feelings of love and connectedness. Just so unique. So special they can take us somewhere we just know our regular contacts with other people can never take us. Never, not spouses, not even our kids, our own mothers (sigh…) Listen, sweetheart, I know it’s hard, but please listen. Everything will be ok. There’s something unbalanced in your life, and what I think it needs is for your boyfriend to get more deeply involved with Maharaji and Knowledge, and not for you to become less involved or lose contact. He has to deepen his understanding, while you retain your clarity. Then, instead of this irrational jealousy, his feelings regarding Knowledge will mirror your own. It’s like Gibran once said – great quote Maharaji chose for his own wedding to Marolyn – something like ‘each have your own loaf but don’t slice one loaf and share it, lest…er..’ – that sort of thing. Believe me, lover, it is a process. A one way process. Soon enough your boyfriend’s experience might be every bit as amazing as yours. It takes time. How many videos has he watched?

Caller:

Can I finish..? [sniff]

MD:

Forgive me, caller. I was getting carried away there. Do go on…

Caller:

Well it was like I said. After darshan I was totally blissed, blessed and blasted out. I guess it showed. Anyway, I was in this sort of first aid place coming around…came out of there, wandering around in a bit of a trance, sort of thing. Looking for my boyfriend. This guy comes up – smart suit, reassuring, sort of. Takes me firmly by the arm and leads me down this corridor. Says Maharaji has taken a special notice of me, and thinks I could provide a ‘special’ service. Wants to meet me – get to know me a little first. Tells me where and when. This luxury hotel up the road – no expenses spared.

‘What sort of special service?’ I ask him. Of course, I was suddenly all trembly again. And so this guy tells me… and it’s just like… Oh, my f***ing Christ – is this for real?! Maharaji is interested in me, interested like THAT..? [extended bout of sniffs and whimpers…] And so it’s like – what so I do… - what with my boyfriend being a journalist, and all…? [click..]

MD:

Oh dear – we seem to be experiencing one or two technical problems there. Line gone dead. Umm… dear me. Yes, I guess we all meet one or two odd characters, even when attending events – I know I do, and that’s what people who meet me say, too (ha-ha). I guess my advice is be careful when dealing with strangers, and don’t take anything they say too seriously. Anyway, caller, we did manage to get your details by tracing the phone line, so I think what I am going to do here is refer this one to Yoram Nice, just to be on the safe side. There might be security issues to be looked into. We wouldn’t want anyone else to have that sort of unpleasant encounter, would we..?

Anyway, my name’s Mitch Dummkopf and I will be back online very, very soon and will be having a look at your emails.

And if you have a personal problem relating to your practice of Knowledge, don’t hesitate to give us a call and I will do my best to answer it…

Email: elkinteractive@redcrow.demon.co.uk

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:31:47 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Check out
Subject: Anybody need comic relief--read above post
Message:
Brilliant. Keep it up you guys.
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:46:32 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Check out
Subject: Should have known it was you...
Message:
...but I didn't right till the end. Thanks for the belly laughs, Nigel.
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:08:02 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Thanks!
Message:
I saved reading it for last today. What a great 'concept'!
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 13:41:50 (EST)
From: Timmi
Email: timmi56@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: information needed, please
Message:
Hi, Everybody. I've not been here for days so I've no idea what has been discussed. I've missed you all! It's lonely being a heretic surrounded by premies; I'm sure a lot of you know that! My question is this: What is the divorce rate among practicing premies? I know that is going to be hard if not impossible to find out. My fear is that it is alarming. Another fear is that it is a big secret at EV and Visions and everywhere else. Although I am sure there are some happily married premies, in thinking over those I know, none are married! All are divorced. Is this unusual? Maybe I've just been around a group that has had some bad luck. But, of the couple of dozen or so premies I know pretty well, absolutely no one is still married. There is one who is in a new relationship, or was over a year ago but I've no idea if it is going well or if it is still going at all. Oh, yes, there is one more, but his marriage is really unhappy and I've not seen them for well over a year. They may not be together anymore. If anybody has any information, please tell me. And if it's not too much trouble, could you send it to my e-mail address? Please! I never know when I am going to be able to get back here and I'm afraid it will be lost far below before I get it. Thanks, all. You help me hang on!
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 07:59:54 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: observation
Message:
timmi somewhere above, someone made the final point that in all premie marriages, there is a third presence in the union of 2--that 3rd being maharaji, the imaginary friend, the imaginary relationship, that ultimately destroys the two people as a union, because maharaji perpetually enforces the notion on each person that HE is the source of your only love, that HIS love is better, greater, vaster, more reliable than that of any other source, that your relationship with HIM must come before all else, and all others, that they're all inferior to him anyway, and whenever you see yourself approaching a situation where you are asked to choose between him and anything else, you MUST choose HIM, or you're out.

So premie marriages are actually jealousy contests, where neither member has or can ever actually really committ to their partner or the union, because in the clinches, one or both will defect to Maharaji and leave the other abandoned. It's much like sibling rivalry, where two children of the same parent, given a choice whether to turn to each other or turn to the parent for special favors, would always push the sibling away and by for the attention and alliance of the powerful aprent.
and the parent in this case exults in it, fosters it, feeds it, fans the flames and never stops reawakening the insecurities and the jealousies and the contests, because it keeps the 'children' trying to outdo one another to bring him gifts, bribes, comforts, flattery, do him favors, all to stay in his graces.
and even if he is secretly pleased as punch, he can always feign anger, displeasure, upset, disapproval, wrath, etc, just to get some more out of them.

under these conditions, marriage , in the true sense of two individuals, in adult acceptance of the demands, uncertainties and neessary courage to join together and committ to making a life together, whatever it brings--is categorically impossible.
marriage is a contract of two, to each other and to life. it is not a contract of three, with two trying, or one trying, to make it work, and the other giving all their attention to the third, who is there to take all the attention, money, energy, importance, significance, and authority they can steal.

feel free to print this and lay it on your spouse.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:03:09 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Re: information needed, please
Message:
Timmi, I hardly know anyone who has not been divorced at least once and I think premies are simply a microcosm of the whole divorce boom. Not sure if it is significant.
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:30:49 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Right on Pat
Message:
That's a very unecessary red herring to follow up the river.

Timmi, if you want some real wild stats, check out the divorce rates of the Union of the Performing Arts!

I personally believe that people who have the guts to call it quits and move on into another relationship are far better admired than those clinging co-dependantly to a union that's lost its spark.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 16:57:43 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Maraji as a mistress
Message:
the unique cause of divorce between premies is that one party usually identifies that the other party gives thier potential for ESSENTIAL emotional support and communication to the guru- result is that the relationship has to get by with dysfunction re give and take. Natural growth and developement of the potential for emotional exchange is mutated.
If a woman has children - often it is she that realizes that all the energy it takes for that job is siphoned off by the demands of the guru. When a woman realizes this she resents it - no matter how much she is into the guru,

This situation is even wierder because Maraji is regarded as the source of divine knowledge- so one can feel very guilty about being dissatisfied .

the rate for divorce in the cult must be similar to the rate among
alchaholics or heroine addicts, gamblers ect.

one party or both parties are severly emotionally handicapped.

Z.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 10:47:14 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Nice pictures
Message:
nice Earth
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:51:26 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: salsa
Subject: BEAUTIFUL! Thank you, Silvia..A must see [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:51:22 (EST)
From: Does Anyone Know About This???
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Some French CACa Needs To Be Scooped
Message:
Found this on the web.
[ French CACa ]
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:57:38 (EST)
From: Maybe Not
Email: None
To: Does Anyone Know About This?
Subject: Or is this a translation of letter?
Message:
My apologies, if so. Not a fluent reader of French. This looks like a French translation of the letter written by Joe et al.
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:19:42 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Maybe Not
Subject: Details, and thanks to them
Message:
This is a French cult (anti) information website.

They've picked the translated letter that's on the French side of EPO. Their website is mainly anti-scientology, and they've noticed that EV's copied scientology's tactics. Great !!!! We have some support here in France !!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 03:26:54 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV's PRs' nightmares
Message:
That translated letter was posted on the newsgroup fr.soc.sectes on August 30 by me, and they've picked it there.
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:32:07 (EST)
From: Much Obliged
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks, JM [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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