Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Dec 09, 2001 To: Dec 17, 2001 Page: 5 of: 5


Jim -:- ***HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MAHARAJI!*** -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:10:44 (EST)
__ gerry -:- LOL, ****BEST OF***** too -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:50:45 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: LOL, ****BEST OF***** too -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:26:21 (EST)
__ Felix the >>> -:- This is very kind of you Jim -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:51:06 (EST)
__ __ Andrea Eriksonn -:- Absolutely! And don't forget these fine quotes... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:22:29 (EST)
__ __ __ Dot Munchbutt -:- Absolutely BEST OF FORUM [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:58:28 (EST)
__ Barry -:- Birthdays are about respect I guess? -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:08:59 (EST)
__ Jim -:- 'You never lie' -- choke, cough, sputter! -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:20:35 (EST)
__ __ PatD -:- Different cultures -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:53:35 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC...but what would you have done -:- if dad told you he was greater than god?;) [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:01:12 (EST)
__ __ What style did LOTU affect -:- when singing for his cult stooges? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:51:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Another Possibility -:- like a Hindu Tiny Tim [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 14:11:09 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- I wonder? -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:20:25 (EST)

Barry -:- Has salam lost his marbles? -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:05:59 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Yes, but he found his skipping rope [nt] -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:10:59 (EST)

gerry -:- The era of capriciousness as to -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:21:05 (EST)
__ Felix the ... -:- Re: The era of capriciousness as to -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:27:41 (EST)
__ __ Carlos -:- Felix, I don't think I belong in the -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 04:20:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- You don't belong in that group -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:36:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- Thanx, Deb. I will from time to time. [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:48:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Not qutie, Carlos -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:44:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- You are entitled to your opinion, Jim. -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:51:02 (EST)
__ __ __ Felix the... -:- Re: Felix, I don't think I belong in the -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 04:47:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I know I am not just a 'p', -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 04:57:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cat -:- Re: I know I am not just a 'p', -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 06:41:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Carlos -:- I think the day willl come when -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:56:52 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Yes, well .... -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:21:04 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- I'm not being flippant... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 10:46:58 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Hm ...... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:49:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- I agree ... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:57:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- benevolent....thats .ridiculous [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:17:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- What part bothered you, bill -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:36:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- yes -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:18:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Give it Gerry to pass to me & Cynthia -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:26:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Synopsis please, anyone..? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:55:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- sure -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:06:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Them's fighting words, Bill! -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 16:20:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- hmmm, -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 23:21:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What the hell are you talking about? -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 11:57:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Synopsis please, anyone..? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:59:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Here's my synopsis -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:32:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Here's my synopsis -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:04:12 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- I agree with Jim. -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:38:20 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Re: I agree with Jim. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 10:56:23 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Are you a capricorn :) [nt] -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:56:31 (EST)

Joe -:- More on McDuck's Response re 'PR' -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:53:21 (EST)
__ McDuck -:- Re: More on McDuck's Response re 'PR' -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:21:33 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Thank You McDuck -- and another question -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:23:35 (EST)
__ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: Thank You McDuck -- and another question -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:45:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:30:15 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Another question, McDuck -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:30:51 (EST)
__ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: Another question, McDuck -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:49:19 (EST)

Barry -:- Francesca check your email ok?(ot) -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:11:54 (EST)

Joe -:- Maharaji's statement re wealth -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 17:34:14 (EST)
__ Peter Howie -:- Re: Maharaji's statement re wealth -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:08:49 (EST)
__ __ Lesley -:- Re: Maharaji's statement re wealth -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 14:25:14 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Re: Maharaji's statement re wealth -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:10:35 (EST)
__ PatD -:- ...that little adjustment.... -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:33:52 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- Yo cracker! whats up?(nt) -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:10:52 (EST)
__ __ Jerry -:- Re: ...that little adjustment.... -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:04:20 (EST)
__ such -:- 'the Mercedes owner,the practical man' [nt] -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:10:54 (EST)
__ Jerry -:- Re: Maharaji's statement re wealth -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 18:33:34 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- It's Ridiculous on It's Face... -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:49:00 (EST)
__ Marshall -:- Re: Maharaji's statement re wealth -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 18:12:16 (EST)

Deborah -:- Hang in their Gerry -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:22:30 (EST)
__ gerry -:- Thanks, Deb -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:04:04 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Glad to Hear That...Ger... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 14:27:17 (EST)
__ AJW -:- He's not their Gerry -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:47:03 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- My luck, an ex-cult teacher [nt] -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:00:59 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Bleak Winter? -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:41:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Isn't it amazing -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:22:48 (EST)

Pullaver -:- F.A.! -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:29:15 (EST)
__ suchus bananus -:- someone deleted my best Latin marji jokes -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:01:22 (EST)
__ __ Pullaver -:- mea culpa -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:27:59 (EST)
__ gerry -:- Re: F.A.! -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:40:14 (EST)
__ __ Pullaver -:- Re: F.A.! -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 18:05:18 (EST)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- re: hotboards software problems... -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:57:03 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Much obliged Chuck... -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 17:29:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- Yes, Roger gives great Satsang }) (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 17:59:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- Re: Yes, Roger gives great}) (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:05:26 (EST)

AJW -:- Power Trips. -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 14:59:21 (EST)
__ PatC -:- No pleasing the limeys -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 17:00:11 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- It's the same old thong. -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:36:40 (EST)
__ gerry -:- dern pommie busybody -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:19:53 (EST)
__ Zelda -:- Re: Power Trips. -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:04:28 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- So what's going on Gerry? -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:10:49 (EST)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Your time might be short ,your choice -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:30:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Gerry, you need a holiday. -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:41:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Not until I get this herd to Montana -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:49:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek &his phantom pal barney -:- Gerry, I can help out if ya need me to -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:59:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- some more suggestions: -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 18:37:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- The only power I used... -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:41:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- ok, It's the power of love [nt] -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:29:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Watch our language? -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:40:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- where's the soap? Say 'aahhh'! LOL -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:06:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Welcome to suburbia Anth (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:02:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Fuck that bollocks Ham. (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:14:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Sssshh -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:31:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hiya bro' -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:50:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- You can't say b*ll*cks here [nt] -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:29:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Sorry Gerry. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:53:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Shit Fuck Piss -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:01:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey Cynthia. (ot) -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:55:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Hey Cynthia. (ot) -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:24:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Andrea Eriksonn -:- You're all VERY NAUGHTY ex-students! (NT) -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:32:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey Roger. -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:07:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Dern right I need help -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:06:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Calamity Jane -:- Cowboy Noir -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:18:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Cowboy Noir -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:53:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Belle Starr -:- A Cowboy's Guide to Life -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 17:21:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hope the Apaches get you. -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:55:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek &his phantom pal barney -:- Ger, don't take no guff from Frontier Gentleman -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:07:01 (EST)

suchabanana -:- some Attributes of a Good forum -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 13:46:56 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Don't forget no fucking swearing too (nte). -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:44:17 (EST)
__ __ suchus bananus -:- glubi! [nt] -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:24:29 (EST)

Richard -:- From Ground Zero (OT) -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 12:33:16 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Thanks Richard, very powerful -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:43:21 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Re: From Ground Zero (OT) -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:09:35 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- It's all tragic, Anth -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:26:49 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Thanks Richard. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:58:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Thanks Richard. -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 13:13:58 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- I'll Answer that... -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:49:43 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Who's arguing Cynthia? -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:13:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- It's an Insiteful Question... -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:06:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Am I God? Are you? -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:02:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Am I God? Are you? -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:41:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Zane(not Martin) Grey -:- Re: Who's arguing Cynthia? -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:49:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- I took the red pill Zane. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:05:07 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Ground Zero/The Site -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 14:45:36 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: Ground Zero/The Site -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:27:36 (EST)

swami suchabanana -:- Pat Halley letter #3: + Summation! -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 05:29:17 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Couldn't finish reading this -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:35:10 (EST)
__ PatC -:- thanks, such [nt] -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:49:20 (EST)
__ Joe -:- **BEST** -Everyone Read!! -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 13:52:21 (EST)

suchabanana -:- Happy Barfday! -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:41:21 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:55:53 (EST)
__ __ Maharajiamus -:- Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare. -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 02:00:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Frankus Sinatrus -:- Scoobius Doobius Doous -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 02:33:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Anthus Gobbus. -:- Fid Def Envelopus Blancus.. -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:02:55 (EST)

Jim S. -:- Michael Dettmers:Thanks again+question.. -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:17:50 (EST)
__ Really? -:- Re: Michael Dettmers:Thanks again+question.. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:00:46 (EST)
__ __ Jim S. -:- Yes, really... -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:13:01 (EST)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Re: Michael Dettmers:Thanks again+question.. -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 08:27:47 (EST)
__ __ Jim S. -:- Thanks...nt -:- Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 12:14:11 (EST)

Pullaver -:- Raja-Ji, Claudia & Children -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 20:27:02 (EST)

Salam -:- gerry -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 19:36:24 (EST)
__ gerry -:- what are you talking about???????? -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 21:10:30 (EST)

Jim -:- There, but for the grace ......... -:- Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 19:31:52 (EST)
__ janet -:- SCOTT T-THIS IS WHAT I MEAN -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 05:33:04 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Another over-the-top post, Janet -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:10:16 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- ...or as the mother of... -:- Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:52:53 (EST)


Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:10:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: ***HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MAHARAJI!***
Message:
ELK has a couple of reports about the Miami program. I was taking a look when I realized what day it was and how I didn't even buy him a card! Oh well ...

A celebration of life

Miami Beach, 8 December 2001

Thanks to Jo Robinson from the UK and Ivete Belfort Mattos from Brazil for these two reports:

From Jo:

Pink. Turquoise. White. Art Deco architecture – Miami! Here on the South Beach, the day starts sunny and warm, in contrast to the day before which was overcast and rainy. Walking down to the Miami Beach Conference Centre in the afternoon, we share happy conspiratorial glances with other people walking our way,

I was thinking about this, remembering all those 'happy conspiratorial glances' we used to share back when I was in the cult. But we were all young, thin, unwrinkled. Those glances were rife with the bemused, selfrighteous and downright happy vibe of a bunch of young people who knew they happened to be the first followers of the Lord of the Universe, come to save us all. What about now? How can these guys still get it up to smile at each other in ANY way, let alone with that 'Happy Conspiracy' feeling? I'd be embarrassed. In fact, probably the best thing about being a PAM, I imagine, is that you're considered too in, too sophisticated, too something to have to indulge in that Happy Conspiracy Glance shit. God that must get old!

Realising we have been sitting in the wrong seats, when their rightful owners come to claim them, we discover that we are, in fact, nearer to the front than we originally thought – a happy discovery.

Do the Jehovah's Witnesses worry about seating at that big picnic table you always see on the cover of The Watchtower? The one where they're all getting ready for the picnic to end all picnics, lions and lambs over there, a couple of Nigerians walking over here? This is premie heaven. Heaven on earth. But excuse me, sir, I believe you're in my seat.

This, however, prompts me to remember the first time I ever saw Maharaji at a big event. I sat right at the top, as far back and as far away as it was possible to be, whilst feeling that he was talking to me alone, and that we were the only people there.

Of course, Maharaji had no idea who you were, didn't give a damn and played you for decades ever since like Forrest Gump's stupid brother.

The following is just some of what I can remember Maharaji saying, and it's not necessarily in the order in which he said it. No doubt when I see a video or broadcast of this event, I'll wonder why I forgot so much of it, but I hope it gives you a little taste of what he said, with apologies for the paraphrasing.

How servile! Listen, friend, don't be so hard on yourself. You forgot so much of it because he's not saying anything AND it's the same not saying anything he's been doing for decades. What's to remember?

The event started at around 5:30 pm.

Maharaji came onto the stage, and motioning everyone to sit down, acknowledged the applause. Then Daya came onto a side stage, looking beautiful in a dress that looked as if it was covered in stars, and accompanied by a pianist proceeded to sing a jazz style song about letting the experience be real.

I really wonder what that gig is all about. Daya ... Dad ... all the Happy Clappers. Who's she anyway? Why should SHE get such prominence? I mean, either there's a magic gene in the Rawat clan or there isn't. If there isn't, then, well, this is sheer neoptism. I'm going to complain to the Council of Churches.

BEING PRACTICAL
Maharaji then started talking about how much we compromise, in the name of 'being practical'. He talked about the meeting with the aspirants the day before, and how he had told them that the next time they looked at a tree, to consider all that was right about it.

Hey, THAT's practical! Now you're talking!

Knowledge is not about good and bad, but just shows life as it is. Likewise, for the tree to grow, so many things were right – not right as in right and wrong, but right because the possibility could manifest.There are only two kinds of 'right' and the other one's spelled 'write'. So take your pick, guru. You use the word, you MEAN the word. And don't think you can just throw a wolly dumbass work like 'manifest' at it to make it do some kind of magic. That isn't on anymore.

The seed was good, in that it could grow, and everything that was needed for it to grow was there. Perhaps droughts and fires had come, but they weren't bad enough to kill the tree, and it could continue to grow.

To be able to look at life, simply like that, not the rights and wrongs, but just as it is, simple.
Yes? Finish the sentence, guru. How about 'To be able to look at life like that, not the rights and wrongs, but just as it is, simple, is nothing much really.'

He talked about how birds fly without the checklists that pilots need, and of how little baby birds stretch their tiny wings and try to fly. Even though they can't yet fly, they still make that effort, and he said that effort was a noble thing.

I'm sorry, but only a fool could still eat up this rank and shameless anthropomorphism. And yet it's been Maharaji's stock-in-trade all the time we've known him. 'Oh look, how the faithful computer key just lets you keep pounding and pounding. And each time it keeps jumping right back up. It never creeps off the keyboard. It doesn't hide behind other keys. And it sure as hell doesn't ask a lot of pesky questions! Be a little more like that key, will 'ya?'

IS IT POSSIBLE TO REMEMBER EVERY BREATH?
A recent question he particularly liked, he said, was 'Is it possible to remember every breath?'. And many people laughed when he said that he felt a lot of people were waiting for the answer.

But he wasn't saying yes, and he wasn't saying no! It was the effort that was important – to try to remember to make the effort.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't he specifically resile from the 24/7 breath thing not so long ago?

Many people, he said try to solve all their problems. This was not a happening thing, he reminded us! We worry about the past, and there is something that all of us would like to go back to and put right – however trivial. We worry about what the future will bring, and we think that a possible solution is to not worry. But he came up with another solution.

Yes, yes, yes. I know the feeling. Sometimes I worry about all the people I tricked into thinking I was God and all the confusion that caused. Better just drop it, huh? Thanks for the advice.

The master he said, suggests not that you don't worry, because that's impossible, but that you worry about this moment, worry about this breath, rather than worrying about the past and the future.

In court today, I should have said something like that. 'M' Lord, if it's all the same to you, I must say, I'm not REALLY worried about that bit of evidence going in. No, sire, I'm actually a bit concerned about this breath, if you know what I mean. It's the moment, M'Lord. The moment.'

Simplicity is profound, and when the master is no longer there, people write books about what he said. Yet it is more profound when it's actually being said! It's easy to appreciate what you had, but harder to appreciate what you have.

Oh Maharaji, please don't ever leave us!!!!

FROM UNCERTAINTY TO CERTAINTY
What we have a lot of, is this breath, and if only we could truly appreciate that, we would recognise how much we have, that the fulfilment we want is inside us. He talked about how human beings all have that possibility of fulfilment. Someone who is thirsty in the desert, has thirst but it comes with an uncertainty about whether it can be fulfilled. But to know that the water is near changes that uncertainty. Just to know that, brings relief and hope.

Maharaji talked about a magazine article describing how society lacked kindness. Whilst acknowledging that kindness was desirable, he made the point that the lack of kindness was linked to the frustration that people feel, and the lack of happiness in their own lives. He used, as an example, asking young children to smile. If they feel a genuine reason to smile, they do, spontaneously. But if you ask them to smile, they grimace, or look very unnatural, with a 'cheesy grin' as if saying 'cheese' for a photographer! It's the same if you ask them to sleep – they don't just relax. Their eyes are fluttering, or they can't resist opening one eye!

The feeling has to be there before they can respond. Adults though, learn how to smile and have parties where all they do is try to be happy.

It was cute, I guess, when the young teenage Lord of the Universe mugged for us all, played the part of the cosmic Peter Pan, blowing out all the stuffiness and pretentions of age and responsibility. But this tired invocation of the mythical child is getting really, really old already. No?

He mentioned that flicking through the TV channels, he had seen a trailer for a Clint Eastwood movie. He then recalled the famous 'Make my day!' line. This, Maharaji said, wasn't a one-way conversation with his creator!

HAPPY EVER AFTER
The story of the master, Maharaji said is a very different. He gave the example of Cinderella, and said he had always had a hard time with it. He could just about go along with the pumpkin turning into a coach and the rats turning into coachmen, but he could never understand the slipper part. Why didn't the prince just look for Cinderella? The shoe could have fit someone else! The 'happy ever after' can be a reality for us, if we seek to be happy now, in this breath.

Just once I'd like to see someone get a chance to tear apart his stupid stories the way he does every one else's. God, Cinderella. Is nothing sacred?

He talked about the manifestation of grace in our lives. Yesterday he said that one of the aspirants had very sincerely said to him that they were grateful and felt grace in their life, and a manifestation of that was how other drivers let them into the flow of traffic when they were feeling that.

Maharaji explained that grace was in being given this breath, not in traffic nor in rainbows.

But how he must have smiled knowing that he'd created yet another cult member out of nothing but smoke and mirrors. This guy doesn't even have Knowledge yet. All he's got are some videos and already he thinks God's controlling traffic for him. Why, God didn't start doing that for me until I'd moved into the ashram.

SOMETHING WE ALREADY KNOW
The master doesn't introduce you to anything new, he said, rather he reunites you with something you already know. He talks about what is familiar, not strange. What is simple, yet profound.

After speaking for about an hour, Maharaji finished, and Daya came onto the side stage again and sang another beautiful jazz-style song about the 'elegance' of existence, Maharaji then left the stage and a short but moving video was played of him talking over still shots of various audiences.

Information on the screens told us the event would begin at 10:30 am. tomorrow, and the hall emptied.

The event continues!

From Ivete:

CELEBRATION OF LIFE

The event is a real celebration.

Maharaji talked about the true happiness of existence: the joy of being alive as well as the profound feeling of being thirsty and quenching that thirst.

I experienced the desire to really live every moment not just as I imagined, but aware of the precious life each breath brings.

Good girl, Ivette. You sound like a premie wind-up doll.

Once more Maharaji reinforced the simplicity of being alive.

The event itself is simple and full of kindness and beauty.

A pure demonstration of the clarity of love.

It is unique!


---
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Footnote: more cameras than of late were in evidence at the event - including one mounted on a track near the front of the hall. This could mean a change in the quality of broadcasts...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:50:45 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: LOL, ****BEST OF***** too
Message:
Stingingly funny and incisive...
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:26:21 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: LOL, ****BEST OF***** too
Message:
Jim,

That's hilarious. Really glad I'm out.

BTW, how's your hand?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:51:06 (EST)
From: Felix the >>>
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is very kind of you Jim
Message:
If we ignore your snorts ,gasps and sighs , we get a lovely personal description of the day from a sweet unaffected person. Thamks Jim. This is a great service you are providing here! Dont feel you have to comment. Relax and enjoy. And...have a nice day )}
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:22:29 (EST)
From: Andrea Eriksonn
Email: None
To: Felix the >>>
Subject: Absolutely! And don't forget these fine quotes...
Message:
... from the event:

'We should be to joy like the moth is to the light... we need to be addicted to clarity [and it's source, the Master]...we need to persevere like a river, which never takes a break or stops....in earnest, change our attention to what 'is.' Abandon our bad habit of paying attention to things [like F7 and ex-students] that are not good for us, and acquire the habit of appreciation...fall in love with simplicity, joy, peace, and tranquility.' [Fall in love with the Master, He is the key]

'Don't pay attention to the doubtmaker.'

'People ask, how do you know about God? God is a feeling and comes when everything else is removed.' [God comes when the smart cards filter out troublemakers, and donations have been collected and he can be reasonalby sure no one will ask any pesky questions. Poor Maharaji, it's so hard to be You-Know-Who!]

'When I was young, God was prevalent in the family. I wanted something simple. My father said: I can show you God. I felt that was something different.'[Nod, wink, knowing smile]

'There's this song - 'my boat is moving because of you.' Why do you jump out of the boat to the alligators of fear and anger and confusion? [F7 and ex-students] The reason is because of doubt.'[AND the people who indulge in it - DON'T talk to them, you're asking for trouble!]

NO ONE ELSE will tell you to pay attention to being alive and be grateful, not the Dali Lama or Mother Teresa or Nan Long Thach, whatever his name is, that Fake Teacher Budhist guy who thinks he has something to say because he forgives people who tortured him. Whatever. All those other Fake Teachers, they just steal some of Maharaji's best ideas. Which leads me to some of the other stuff Maharaji said:

'Put down your bag of burdens, and collect the precious.'

'Breathe every breath with meaning.'

'We don't have to borrow clarity or happiness. It's there. Clarity is there. Be attentive to peace and joy, and they will stay. Create a space so they can dance.'

'Don't pay attention to the doubtmaker.'

'Knowledge is for those who are free'

'Come because you want to.'

'Become familiar with that which lets you have feelings.'

'What about your breath? We say, I'm too busy. And then when the last one comes, we say: please, just one more, just one more.'

'Focus on the festival of breath while it is happening.'

'Heart is saying: quench me, fill the cup now.'

'The seed was sown on your farm, and it is best to practice Knowledge when you WANT to practice. Now you have the feast in your life!'

'The one thing we can have an insatiable appetite for is joy, it never gets boring.'

'Enjoy peace now. Take it with joy.'

I love it when he says nice stuff like that, but I don't like to over-emphasize it too much, because it sounds very similar to stuff all those Fake Teachers say. It just doesn't work when other people say that stuff, because they don't have the divine juju and correct lineage. When those Fake Teachers say stuff like this, it just leaves me stone cold, because when the source isn't You-Know-Who, it's just meaningless twaddle.

Yet these Fake Teachers all publish their little books and go on speaking tours, because they are greedy fakes who just want to make money, and confuse people by talking like Maharaji does sometimes, and detract from His very important work. When you buy and read THEIR books, you are hurting Mahraji. Knowledge has everything you need. This is why Maharaji said:

'The difference between Knowledge and assurance from a book, is that a book asks us to disregard our feelings, and (tells us) that our feelings can be wrong...

Many things Fake Teacher's say sound similar to things Maharaji often says, and that's dangerous, because a Fake Teacher's book might make you disregard your feelings that Maharaji is the only source of real truth and real peace and real happiness in this world. We might make the tragic mistake of thinking we can be happy, conscious and enjoying life WITHOUT The Master. That's why the techniques of Knowledge are secret, and why The Teacher often ridicules books and their authors. He wisely knows they can create doubt in our minds. And ''He's HERE'' to prevent that from happening, which is just one of many reasons why we NEED to have a MASTER, who is also a Teacher, but really You-Know-Who revealing You-Know-What.

The Master Himself has said that people without Knowlege are really like dead people anyway, I know I was! Until Maharaji showed me how to go inside, notice my breath, and experience life, I was just like a dead person. Maharaji saved me from not noticing I was alive and breathing. NO ONE ELSE could do that. At least, I don't think so, but I don't like to think about that, because it's too much like doubting... anyhow, let's not go there!

Now of course, we don't tell Aspirants that The Teacher is reavealing God to them, and that they are like dead people until that happens, because they might get the wrong idea, if they don't have 'That Understanding' first. You see, they are so confused, they tend to think they are like living people already, and in their ignorance, tend to get offended if you tell them otherwise. And because I'm a nice person, I long ago stopped telling my non-premie family members and friends that they were like dead people. Now I just wait for bad things to happen to them, in hope that adversity will make them more receptive to The Teacher's message.

No, people that don't have Maharaji's Knowledge just can't experience life or their breath, they CAN'T, it's not possible, they need LOTS of time watching videos first, so they can get a chance to see Maharaji through our eyes, the way we see Him. That is what propagation is all about, cultivating That Understanding. I often think, ''If only they could see Him through my eyes... then they would see that He's really... You-Know-Who.''

All these quotes are good advice from You-Know-Who, and further proof I'm not in a cult, or even some silly religion (although if push comes to shove, I'll say it's like a mainstream religion, just to shut people up!). M and K are just the undeniable TRUTH, and if you ungrateful ex-students were not so busy doubting and filtering out the good, you would see that. If you had the heart of a child, you wouldn't ask questions, and it would all make sense.

- Andrea Eriksonn,
Who loves it when the Teacher says ''Don't thank God, Thank The Master.'' He's so much better (and more fun!) than that boring old Jesus guy. Oh, and FYI: Maharaji doesn't answer questions, and as His students, neither will Catweasel or I, so don't bother asking any. His example is good enough for me. We may be nice, but we aren't STUPID. :|

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 22:58:28 (EST)
From: Dot Munchbutt
Email: None
To: Andrea Eriksonn
Subject: Absolutely BEST OF FORUM [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:08:59 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Birthdays are about respect I guess?
Message:
This, however, prompts me to remember the first time I ever saw Maharaji at a big event. I sat right at the top, as far back and as far away as it was possible to be, whilst feeling that he was talking to me alone, and that we were the only people there.

I had that same experience when I was at the Dylan concert years ago at the memorial arena. I really thought his eyes kept meeting mine, and he was singing to me only. Quite wierd yes, but none the less I adored him for so long. I was even dissapointed that he didn't wave goodbye to me or something when he left the stage.

maybe this is something that cult heads depend on eh? that total admiration and respect. It's kind of the first screw they turn, even if they don't know their doing it.

Good post Jim. fuooh! Long sucker too.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:20:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'You never lie' -- choke, cough, sputter!
Message:
Here's Day Two:

Celebrate life!

Miami Beach, 9 December 2001

Thanks to Lucy Robinson from the UK and Lee Hillyard of Long Beach, California for these two informal reports:

From Lucy:

A truly magical event

Maharaji commented at the beginning of Sunday's event, how quickly the first day had 'clicked by'.

It really did seem that this weekend was flying past far too quickly. Sunday's event began as Saturday's had. There were no videos shown before or after Maharaji spoke, but music began and ended the event.

Daya sang a few new songs, and accompanied herself on the piano. Then three people took turns to speak to Maharaji from the side of the stage, give him thanks, and tell him about their experiences during their time with Knowledge. It was a very touching, sweet moment, and Maharaji sat and smiled and laughed as they regaled their emotions and gratitude.

NURTURE AND PROTECT THE HEART
He then spoke about the importance of the heart as the bearer of all the love we feel. His analogy was that of a jar which we might use to keep things in. If, he said, we were told that the jar we had been using to store our marbles and odds and ends in was, in fact, incredibly precious, our priorities would change. No longer would the jar be used to store our junk. The junk would be tipped out, and we would then consider it to be the precious.

Our hearts are equally precious was his reminder, and we should nurture and protect them.

When he had finished speaking, and Daya had sung another beautiful song, people began to get up, and move around. But Maharaji then reappeared onto the stage (to wild applause, as you can imagine), and proceeded to play one of his own musical compositions. It was a rapturous mix of strong Indian beats with fluid melodies. When he finished this song, the hall was alive with people clapping and shouting their thanks and admiration. Meanwhile however, Maharaji had begun his second piece. Everyone instantly began clapping, until Maharaji began to sing. Everyone fell silent to listen to his voice. Anyone who had heard him sing knows how powerful his voice is. He sang, 'Swing me on this beautiful swing', and raised his hands as an invitation to join in with him. Naturally, everyone did. We then all sang together, lead by his voice.

Maharaji wished everyone a happy New Year, and then left the stage. People burst into a round of 'Happy Birthday to You', at which Maharaji playfully poked his head back around the curtain and gave everyone a wave. After this reappearance, no one left their seats for a good ten minutes, hoping to catch another glimpse.

It was a truly magical event, from beginning to end.

Actually, it sounds like a cult meeting.

===============================

From Lee:

'Put down your bags of burden and collect the precious.'

At 12 noon EST Daya came out singing with John Adorney at the keyboard ('It must be love'). With Maharaji giving his darshan smiles, and at the end, clapping.

A person with Knowledge for 32 years got up to say thank you to Maharaji. He said: 'You never lie.'

OHhhhhhhhHHHHHHH! If only ...... errrrrRRRRRRRRR.......

A person with Knowledge of 24 years said 'I was in love with you anyway, why Knowledge? I had a little trouble with the word 'master' because of slavery and all.
But when I realized what 'master' really meant, it became a beautiful thing, and I learned that receiving Knowledge would bring me closer to you.'

A third person stood up to say hank you. He described himself as a 'second generation satsang brat.' When he heard it was going to be Maharaji's videos only, he really wanted to go to satsang. After that he said 'Incredible isn't enough of a word to express how I feel' He told Maharaji he is like the dance song that he likes so much, named 'Flawless.'

Daya came back to the stage, singing and playing the piano.

At 12:19pm Maharaji began his address. He started by saying we cannot allow life to 'click right along.' He posed the question: what if all that was unnecessary was taken away? Like the coffee filter separates the grounds from the brew, what if in our life we could keep only the good?'

'Put down your bag of burdens, and collect the precious.'

'Breathe every breath with meaning.'

'We should be to joy like the moth is to the light... we need to be addicted to clarity...we need to persevere like a river, which never takes a break or stops....in earnest, change our attention to what 'is.' Abandon our bad habit of paying attention to things that are not good for us, and acquire the habit of appreciation...fall in love with simplicity, joy, peace, and tranquility.'

'We don't have to borrow clarity or happiness. It's there. Clarity is there. Be attentive to peace and joy, and they will stay. Create a space so they can dance.'

'Don't pay attention to the doubtmaker.'

'People ask, how do you know about God? God is a feeling and comes when everything else is removed.'

'When I was young, God was prevalent in the family. I wanted something simple. My father said: I can show you God. I felt that was something different.'

'Knowledge is for those who are free'

'Come because you want to.'

'There's this song - 'my boat is moving because of you.' Why do you jump out of the boat to the alligators of fear and anger and confusion? The reason is because of doubt.'

'The difference between Knowledge and assurance from a book, is that a book asks us to disregard our feelings, and (tells us) that our feelings can be wrong...

'Become familiar with that which lets you have feelings.'

'What about your breath? We say, I'm too busy. And then when the last one comes, we say: please, just one more, just one more.'

'Focus on the festival of breath while it is happening.'

'Heart is saying: quench me, fill the cup now.'

'The seed was sown on your farm, and it is best to practice Knowledge when you WANT to practice. Now you have the feast in your life!'

'The one thing we can have an insatiable appetite for is joy, it never gets boring.'

'Enjoy peace now. Take it with joy.'

At 1:05pm Daya came out and sang and played again, 'You are so beautiful to me.'

At 1:08 pm Maharaji sat down at his keyboard, and played an Indian bhajan-style song...it had a flute lead with a guitar backup.

At 1:16pm He played what I call an rock salsa Indian-style song and he sang: 'Swing me in your beautiful swing.'

At 1:23 pm he asked us all to sing along, the whole hall sang along with him: 'Swing me in your beautiful swing.'

At 1:25pm he said goodbye and 'Have a ball, have a blast, see you next year, and happy new year.'

At 1:26pm we all sang 'Happy Birthday' to him.

At 1:27pm he came back out and waved goodbye for the final time.

It's amazing how these people fly from all over the world just to have this bozo assure them he's happy. There is no emotional independence in premiedom. I used to worry so often about pleasing him, not pleasing him, blah blah blah. These people ...

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:53:35 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Different cultures
Message:
'When I was young, God was prevalent in the family. I wanted something simple. My father said: I can show you God. I felt that was something different.'

God was prevalent in my family too,but if my old man had told me he could show me god I'd've checked it out with the parish priest, who would've probably had him banged up in the nut house, had he persisted.

There's so much more room for the spirit to breathe across the hills & far away.

Shit, the way Rawat gets away with this stuff humbles me.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:01:12 (EST)
From: PatC...but what would you have done
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: if dad told you he was greater than god?;) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:51:34 (EST)
From: What style did LOTU affect
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: when singing for his cult stooges?
Message:
Jerry Lee Lewis, Lil' Richard

Liberace

a mixture of Snoop Doggy Dog and Ravi Shankar

'It's the question we must ask, ask 'til we know the answer'

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 14:11:09 (EST)
From: Another Possibility
Email: None
To: What style did LOTU affect
Subject: like a Hindu Tiny Tim [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:20:25 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I wonder?
Message:
It's amazing how these people fly from all over the world just to have this bozo assure them he's happy. There is no emotional independence in premiedom. I used to worry so often about pleasing him, not pleasing him, blah blah blah. These people ...

I wonder how they'd feel coming all that way to hear him say he was very unhappy? maybe this:

'Over there you'll find 30 large tubs of king cobra venom, I'm very pissed off right now......well goodnight! thanks for comen out!'

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:05:59 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Has salam lost his marbles?
Message:
Lets show him some support guys. he's gone astray, cheese has slid off his cracker - so to speak. i think soon he's going to pack his bags and head to the war zone and join the fight.
I think some warm soup and a friendly soft hand on the shoulder is just what the doctor ordered.
C'mon gang! Lets let the fello know he's appreciated shall we?
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:10:59 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Yes, but he found his skipping rope [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:21:05 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The era of capriciousness as to
Message:
forum policy has ended.

We now return to our regularly scheduled rules:

Internicine fight threads will be locked and not deleted in the future.

I apologize to anyone this may have negatively effected by my capriciousness.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:27:41 (EST)
From: Felix the ...
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: The era of capriciousness as to
Message:
Thanks Gerry. I knew you were just an all round good guy.I'll invite the gang back.....
Hey SC, Mili, CD,Carlos, Mel,Sanford,....Gerry's having a party and the Corona's are on him!!And if you are a lurker, have the gut's to post, these guys love a little interaction;Hey Gerry?
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 04:20:27 (EST)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Felix the ...
Subject: Felix, I don't think I belong in the
Message:
Thanks Gerry. I knew you were just an all round good guy.I'll invite the gang back.....
Hey SC, Mili, CD,Carlos, Mel,Sanford,....Gerry's having a party and the Corona's are on him!!And if you are a lurker, have the gut's to post, these guys love a little interaction;Hey Gerry?


---

group you placed me in. I've never been a lurker here; I've posted rarely because I've had little to contribute that would have been apropriate. I've never flamed, nor spammed. I've attempted to avoid satsanging here. I did have a dust-up with Jim, but believe I did so in accord with the way I've seen exes respond to him (except that I didn't cuss him out!)

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:36:26 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: You don't belong in that group
Message:
I can attest to Carlos civility and respect having had a 1 1/2 hour or longer conversation with him on the phone. We allowed each other to express ourselves honestly and there was not even a moment or hostility or imbitterment. We see Maha through different eyes but we see each other through respect.

Email anytime Carlos,

deborah

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:48:36 (EST)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Thanx, Deb. I will from time to time. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:44:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Not qutie, Carlos
Message:
Thanks Gerry. I knew you were just an all round good guy.I'll invite the gang back.....
Hey SC, Mili, CD,Carlos, Mel,Sanford,....Gerry's having a party and the Corona's are on him!!And if you are a lurker, have the gut's to post, these guys love a little interaction;Hey Gerry?


---

group you placed me in. I've never been a lurker here; I've posted rarely because I've had little to contribute that would have been apropriate. I've never flamed, nor spammed. I've attempted to avoid satsanging here. I did have a dust-up with Jim, but believe I did so in accord with the way I've seen exes respond to him (except that I didn't cuss him out!)


---

The 'dust up' you had with me was just your bristling when challenged to defend your faith rationally. Ever since, you've been brooding. I know. I hear. You can't stop mentioning me on LG, always trying to bring me up as if I'm some sort of madman or something. No, Carlos, nice try but, face it, fella, you're clinging to Maharaji in one last slow dance but the lights have already gone up and the teachers are clearing out the gymnasium. The party's over, dude.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:51:02 (EST)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You are entitled to your opinion, Jim.
Message:
Thanks Gerry. I knew you were just an all round good guy.I'll invite the gang back.....
Hey SC, Mili, CD,Carlos, Mel,Sanford,....Gerry's having a party and the Corona's are on him!!And if you are a lurker, have the gut's to post, these guys love a little interaction;Hey Gerry?


---

group you placed me in. I've never been a lurker here; I've posted rarely because I've had little to contribute that would have been apropriate. I've never flamed, nor spammed. I've attempted to avoid satsanging here. I did have a dust-up with Jim, but believe I did so in accord with the way I've seen exes respond to him (except that I didn't cuss him out!)


---

The 'dust up' you had with me was just your bristling when challenged to defend your faith rationally. Ever since, you've been brooding. I know. I hear. You can't stop mentioning me on LG, always trying to bring me up as if I'm some sort of madman or something. No, Carlos, nice try but, face it, fella, you're clinging to Maharaji in one last slow dance but the lights have already gone up and the teachers are clearing out the gymnasium. The party's over, dude.


---

But your ability to corectly interpret where my head is at and what I am doing is still at 0%.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 04:47:52 (EST)
From: Felix the...
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: Felix, I don't think I belong in the
Message:
Simple little buddy. You is a P. No need to suck up here. and they will eventually eat you for dinner. That is why on the outside it looks like gingerbread. But have a look over on the fire. You see that cooking pot? Now do you see Sandford smiling and waving at you. And those bones lying around? You get the feeling there is a little carnage occurs here. Think of it this way. You are on the menu.
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 04:57:06 (EST)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Felix the...
Subject: I know I am not just a 'p',
Message:
Simple little buddy. You is a P. No need to suck up here. and they will eventually eat you for dinner. That is why on the outside it looks like gingerbread. But have a look over on the fire. You see that cooking pot? Now do you see Sandford smiling and waving at you. And those bones lying around? You get the feeling there is a little carnage occurs here. Think of it this way. You are on the menu.


---

but an unrepentant bhakti 'p' never likely to become an ex. So if that is why you put me in that group I guess I can't complain. But most exes strike me as inteligent, non canibal types... even Jim, who displays qualities I dispise. So I think I think better of your grooup than you do.

And I don't suck up to anyone. If you think that, either you haven't read many of my posts or you have even less bbrains than YOUR posts display. I just try and treat you guys as I would have you treat me, with courtesy and the respect any human deserves. If you feel people don't deserve respect, tell me, how are you any better than what you claim my teacher is? Or are you just less skillful at abusing people than you claim he is, and hence are jealous?

To the rest of the exes, my apologies. The canibal thing pushed my button.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 06:41:40 (EST)
From: Cat
Email: None
To: Carlos
Subject: Re: I know I am not just a 'p',
Message:
Oh that was sweet Carlos. You are afar more reasonable person than my persona here. But the reality is I'm just a figment of the collective imagination.
I dont respect abuse, herd culture or convenient labelling. The flavor here changes with the guys pushing the control buttons.
Who are you saying I claim abuses people? M? Are you kidding.
The day will come where the climate is open enough to rationally discuss things here with rational people. I dont think it's here yet Carlos.Move this over to LG and I'll talk to you.
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 04:56:52 (EST)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Cat
Subject: I think the day willl come when
Message:
Oh that was sweet Carlos. You are afar more reasonable person than my persona here. But the reality is I'm just a figment of the collective imagination.
I dont respect abuse, herd culture or convenient labelling. The flavor here changes with the guys pushing the control buttons.
Who are you saying I claim abuses people? M? Are you kidding.
The day will come where the climate is open enough to rationally discuss things here with rational people. I dont think it's here yet Carlos.Move this over to LG and I'll talk to you.


---

'the climate is open enough to rationally discuss things here with rational people' much more quickly if we don't use the PRESENT climate as an excuse for rude, unciviulized behaviour. I am not going to move this anywhere; I have little interest in discourse with you, and less in cooperating with you. (Especially when ordered instead of requested. You should get a refund if you ever went to charm school.)

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:21:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yes, well ....
Message:
As I mentioned to you earlier, it was a bit disappointing to see some good posts, on-topic and thoughtful, about how we think as exes, struck down without warning just because a few people didn't agree. But, for the record, I stand by everything I said and, if you think I missquoted Katie, ask her yourself.

Anyone wants to take this up with me in email, please do:

jimheller@shaw.ca

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 10:46:58 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm not being flippant...
Message:
I had a serious lapse in judgement. Two actually: the first being my letting the thread degenerate into a nasty fight, and secondly, deleting it.

Again I apologize to anyone who may have been adversely affected.

And thanks for the phone call Jim. It's good and sometime necessary to hash things out by telephone.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:49:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hm ......
Message:
Gerry,

I don't agree that the 'thread degenerated into a nasty fight'. Sure, there were some belligerent posts by a few people who couldn't face the facts easily. But these were only meant with rational and calm posts by those who could. We've got to be able to discuss things as a group, even contentious ones.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:57:25 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I agree ...
Message:
I was following that thread very closely. Even bill, who had a shooting spree, came to a passive resolve. He suggested the thread should probably be deleted. I responded to him without contention. I thought it was quite real. He was expressing himself in a wild and wooly way, but he had a mindset that he was exercising on the board. Sometimes things like that have to happen. Is it better to be polite and constrained. Again, unresolved issues resurface when you least expect them. It was very revealing what personal issues were in the way. We could have taken a little longer to aire them out.

The thing I found remarkable, acutually, is that people were saying what they really felt. Is that so wrong? And if someone said something that was over the top, than they'd have to live with that fact. Jim's post was benevolent, how it personally affected people was revealing.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:17:02 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: benevolent....thats .ridiculous [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 00:36:52 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: What part bothered you, bill
Message:
You can email me your response if you prefer. BTW, I tried to email you and didn't work. Do you need my email address?
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:18:40 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: yes
Message:
My 2 emails are under assault I guess, I will open a new one that the forum has not known.
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:26:35 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Give it Gerry to pass to me & Cynthia
Message:
'kay. And we don't have to expound on the above topic if you don't want, I'm not attached. But I'd like to see you come to some sort of a resolution over this, bill. It will be better for you and your peace of mind, IMHO.

Take care,

deborah

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:55:19 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Synopsis please, anyone..?
Message:
We've been away since before the weekend and have obviously missed some lively exchanges. I notice Moley's/my thread has been pulled along with some others. What happened? (if it is printable/repeatable - I don't wish to stir up any fresh trouble here. I just wondered what the gist was. email will do)
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 01:06:36 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: sure
Message:
If I chased you around the forum for years nitpicking your posts,
and you were reasonably on target and stateing your views, and no premies were cast back into the cult darkness by your words, no
heresy was being spoken by you, I finally drive you off the forum,
then,
I say that we have finally settled the issue.
YOU are gone,
The forum can finally get back on track now that this (distraction) of your heresy's are not bothering me anymore because number one,
you are gone, number 2, I have managed to elicit a comment out of you that is not a heresy and should not even be held up as your mental
flaw. None the less, I will take what I can get out of you and then
proceed to make a post where I appear to be reasonable and even (benevolent!) in some peoples eyes, and then I will proceed to make numerous unfair and untrue characterizations about you, trash your reputation on the forum, claim that everyone had to 'bend over backwards' to put up with your posts, that .............
well a number of sentences where Jim said things about Katie and
at first as I read them I started to point them out by drawing
archive posts from 1999 and 1997, and suggesting that the archives dont back THIS sentence, and maybe he would like to rewrite it, then
I would read another and another sentence, and point those out, at first I was not pleased at this, but what really shocked was when he
continued to post other posts to me and others where he only made
more slanderous comments about Katie that would not stand up to the light of day.

I see what he posted in this thread, and all I can tell you Nigel, is that it is disappointing to really recognise that Jim suffers from
the same ailment that a few businessmen I know suffer from.
For some reason, for various reasons I suppose, they will lie.
I watch in business, and some guys will meet with someone, or do business with someone, and then trash the guy behind his back and
some of them just make stuff up and lie!
I see it with some regularity in my life, I just didnt see it in Jim.

I got quite mad at him in the thread probably half out of shock to see that in him.

I do hope he will use this occasion to try to look at that and
kill off that behaviour in his life, we all have stuff to work on,
maybe he is surrounded by that kind of enviroment where he works, but
he can see it and leave that stuff behind.

I was the one that said
'Gerry could erase this thread perhaps'

I am glad he did, It was a terrible thread for both Katie and Jim.
Jim should be glad as hell that it is gone.
Now maybe Gerry can delete this post after you and Jim get to read it.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 16:20:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Them's fighting words, Bill!
Message:
If I chased you around the forum for years nitpicking your posts,
and you were reasonably on target and stateing your views, and no premies were cast back into the cult darkness by your words, no
heresy was being spoken by you, I finally drive you off the forum,
then,
I say that we have finally settled the issue.
YOU are gone,
The forum can finally get back on track now that this (distraction) of your heresy's are not bothering me anymore because number one,
you are gone, number 2, I have managed to elicit a comment out of you that is not a heresy and should not even be held up as your mental
flaw. None the less, I will take what I can get out of you and then
proceed to make a post where I appear to be reasonable and even (benevolent!) in some peoples eyes, and then I will proceed to make numerous unfair and untrue characterizations about you, trash your reputation on the forum, claim that everyone had to 'bend over backwards' to put up with your posts, that .............
well a number of sentences where Jim said things about Katie and
at first as I read them I started to point them out by drawing
archive posts from 1999 and 1997, and suggesting that the archives dont back THIS sentence, and maybe he would like to rewrite it, then
I would read another and another sentence, and point those out, at first I was not pleased at this, but what really shocked was when he
continued to post other posts to me and others where he only made
more slanderous comments about Katie that would not stand up to the light of day.

I see what he posted in this thread, and all I can tell you Nigel, is that it is disappointing to really recognise that Jim suffers from
the same ailment that a few businessmen I know suffer from.
For some reason, for various reasons I suppose, they will lie.
I watch in business, and some guys will meet with someone, or do business with someone, and then trash the guy behind his back and
some of them just make stuff up and lie!
I see it with some regularity in my life, I just didnt see it in Jim.

I got quite mad at him in the thread probably half out of shock to see that in him.

I do hope he will use this occasion to try to look at that and
kill off that behaviour in his life, we all have stuff to work on,
maybe he is surrounded by that kind of enviroment where he works, but
he can see it and leave that stuff behind.

I was the one that said
'Gerry could erase this thread perhaps'

I am glad he did, It was a terrible thread for both Katie and Jim.
Jim should be glad as hell that it is gone.
Now maybe Gerry can delete this post after you and Jim get to read it.


---

You can say whatever you want about YOUR opinion about what Katie or I, for that matter, have said on the forum over the years. I'd be happy to discuss it with you, even,(so long as you can control yourself, that is.)

But you're flat out calling me a liar and I won't stand for that. And no, I don't suffer from 'Businessman's Syndrome', your diagnosis notwithstanding. Not only have I lied about nothing but I've said whatever I've had to say out in the open, far from behind Katie's back.

So, Bill, deal with it. Back it up, retract it, something. I won't drop it.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 23:21:31 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: hmmm,
Message:
It aint really businessmans syndrome, it is quite common human behaviour. Women indulge in it far more than guys.
Last saturday there was a holiday party for abused kids and I went to help with a craft booth, there were 5 women involved in the organizing
and the backstabbing and infighting was intense. Who knows what all they managed to hassle over, but I didnt want the details although someone wanted to talk about it and they wanted to talk about it to me.
I said I dont want to know.
Lots of fights happened here on the forum and I mostly just didnt read the threads or the posts when I saw them going that way.
People have complained about you and my response was always and I qoute, ''I have a blind spot to any alleged flaws in Jim because of all the good he has done and how he helped me'' Maybe you recall that one.
I know you have an obsession somewhat but I think it is good for this
forum that there are those that are willing to do constant heavy lifting and dealing with the attack dog premies and other jobs you tackle.
With your successes have also been failures of course, but I never saw them cross the line I saw in the Katie thread we are discussing.

Tonight I was in a store doing holiday shopping with 2 of the boys here, the youngest really put on a hell of a bad behaviour show and I was the recipient and it was in front of a lot of folks. I know some of them could not believe that I seemingly didnt really care that he was so damn way way out of line and I was taking all his shit.

I know he is a good guy, and usually fine and all, but also he is going to give me (undeserved - I say) hell and do it in public and
what am I going to do? Go ballistic and overpower him in that moment
just for the sake of some strangers ideas about parenting?
I choose no.
And have before.
However, some things around the house I DO become adamant about.
Whatever my lines are, they all have thier various reasons.

In your case, I cant stand to see you fall into the trap which so many do, granted I never saw you do it before, or noticed it, I will assume it is the first time, but you surely have seen it plenty in your life. People DO that. Regularly. Dont you do it. It is not worthy of you. Leave that shit for rawat and those that are insecure.

I rather would try to make you laugh with an Ananomousie post.
Sometimes they fall flat, oh well, I try.
NO one is constant, no one can avoid mistakes, familiarize yourself with this one so it can be avoided. Criticism is a tricky game.

I NEVER criticise the 20 year old here, and he has always been especially hard. He came from abuse and it is hard for those types to get beyond it. The 25 year old had no dad either and when he was here (for about 10 years), I had to play the role he needed out of me and it had nothing whatsoever to do with telling him in stern tones what was right or wrong.
The 2 youngest get some stern stuff from me because they are not insecure about who I am and what I mean to them. And I care deeply
about them and cant stand to see some things in them. There is a girl Julia down the block and her mom is gone, dad is lowlife, and at 9, she is a bit of an emotional wreck and all summer long I had to intercede on her behalf when the kids were playing because
and this is true,
Many Kids will attack weakness.
They cant seem to help themselves from pummeling the weakness in another kid.
Daily if given the chance. The saying 'kids are cruel' came from someone who knew.
All these factors affect me and played a part. No one is immune from
the dark side, we will always need to be on gaurd for ourselves and others around us. Or at least those we care about.
And in my case, that would include you and Katie.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 11:57:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: What the hell are you talking about?
Message:
Bill,

As I said above, but maybe you'd rather talk about it here, I did not lie. Katie did indeed say what I said she did. Your problem, really, seems to be more with her than me. Classic case of shooting the messenger.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 17:59:52 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Synopsis please, anyone..?
Message:
Better by email lest it start all over again. (Hope some kind person fills you in - I hate post-mortems.) It was just one or two fights - the kind that we all enjoy so much, the kind that makes this forum not a cult, the kind where it's obvious that we hardly agree with each other on anything other than our former lord is a fraud. A lot of fun and fireworks.
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:32:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Here's my synopsis
Message:
Hi Nige,

I wrote a post called 'Katie and I have FINALLY worked things out' or something like that. In it, I explained that, in email, Katie had told me that she really had 'drifted' (my word) towards thinking that one could follow Maharaji reasonably. The reason, which she told me and which I explained, was that she'd become friends with a premie who she finds quite reasonable. At least as far as that premie goes, Katie says, she thinks her following Maharaji is no worse than practising any religion. Katie also said that she didn't want to debate that opinion for various reasons. One, she's got a lot of other stuff on her plate. Another, she's just not that interested in Maharaji anymore. She did agree to my posting a summary of our private dialogue and accepted that, after years and years of chasing her around on these issues, I wanted a bit of public closure, especially given the many people who've told me to stuff it, essentially, whenever I confronted Katie for some of what I found excessively cult-friendly comments over time.

The post triggered a number of posts. Many agreed with me, the posters apprently understanding why I've always thought it WAS a big deal, that it was never good to have some regular ex cutting the cult slack none of the rest of us would without, at minimum, arguing the differences through. A few people, like Bill and Stonor especially, freaked out, calling me all sorts of names. Bill called me a liar basically, although I invited him to check with Katie herself. I wasn't lying.

I think a few people urged Gerry to cut the thread and he did.

And there you have it.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:04:12 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Here's my synopsis
Message:
and then I had a fight with Salam about Stonor and her ''Jim's a bully'' obsession.
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:38:20 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I agree with Jim.
Message:
I don't post much of my boring goof off gags around her much anymore, but I still read alot of the posts at F7. sometimes they start to get real juicy - them BAM! Locked up right away. I get real bummed and I have to weep. sometimes for several minutes at a time. Joke! Anyhow, let the chips fall man. Thats the best thing about F7. The pure full on fights, that have warmed my heart, and many others for so long.
Love and cuss words,

Bar

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 10:56:23 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: I agree with Jim.
Message:
I don't post much of my boring goof off gags around her much anymore, but I still read alot of the posts at F7. sometimes they start to get real juicy - them BAM! Locked up right away. I get real bummed and I have to weep. sometimes for several minutes at a time. Joke! Anyhow, let the chips fall man. Thats the best thing about F7. The pure full on fights, that have warmed my heart, and many others for so long.
Love and cuss words,

Bar


---

Bar, if only we had ten, nay, twenty posters like you this place would be paradise!

:)

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:56:31 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Are you a capricorn :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:53:21 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: More on McDuck's Response re 'PR'
Message:
McDuck, thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. As Jim said, many of us find it fascinating how things happen in the M Cult, especially when you see the results and one is left just amazed at how strange it comes out. This is especially true because there is this veneer of new-age corporatism at Elan Vital, what with those 'training' words like 'synchronization,' acronyms for various things, and the like. So thanks so much. You said:

Let me say from the outset that I'm not comfortable naming some individuals in a public forum when many of them have been friends of mine for years and we've not yet had (or made) the opportunity to discuss my exing. The folks at F7 have a pretty good idea who the main figures are in international PR.

No problem (or the current cliche 'no worries'). I respect that you might need to not name names. But as to the PR group my list would be the following:

Jean Marie Bonthous, who has now become the head honcho, if he wasn't already, and I gather may now be running just about everything in M's world.

Booth Dyess was involved at some point, and apparently wrote those 'how to handle the press' instructions for premies to use at video events. [They appeared to have been written for the mentally retarded. Premies were instructed to say 'I don't know' to any question and tell them to call Booth. How utterly insulting.]

Glenn Whittaker, obviously, who wrote something called 'The History of the Organisations' as a 'Perspective' on the EV website. This, and other 'historical' pieces seemed to have the same formula:

1. After spending a lot of time explaining this amazing phenomenon of the child master, many anecdotal things about M's first arrival in 1971 and 1972 were mentioned, with implications that 'it was crazy' due to the incompetent zeal of the premies. Maharaji was just kind of dragged along by the wave of overzealous devotees.

2. Then, very quickly, the entire period 1973 to 1985 is skipped, or glossed over in a mere sentence. Glenn mentioned it only as a time of M being 'colloquial' and spending time with the premies. In almost all of those explantions, this phenomenon occurs, for obvious reasons. The implication is that just shortly after arrival in the West, M immediately began getting rid of all that was cultlike and bizarre. The reason 1973-1985 is a problem, is that during that period, M went hard in the OPPOSITE direction, and the cult became much more devotional, ritualistic, introverted, etc.

Mark Winter in the UK and I guess to some degree his wife, Josie Winter. When Enjoyinglife got started, Mark wrote his 'life' on that website. I always thought Mark was a decent and honest guy, but in his 'life' he was willing to lie mercilessly, stating that M never gave any direction in peoples' lives or told them how to live, as if satsang, service and meditation were not mantras of M. I reacted strongly to that, and I think the words 'fucking liar' were used. I apologize to Mark for that, and feel sorry for the fact that this is what a cult will get you to stoop to.

I thought Terry Yingling was in PR at EV at some point, but I heard she quit after interacting with Michael Dettmers and dealing with the Jagdeo revelations.

Terry I recall as a very nice person, who I thought was a lot of fun. Apparently she had as part of her duties the 'monitoring' of the EPO website and Forum. Ironically, I am aware of at least on person she asked to be an EV 'monitor' who deprogrammed himself by reading the forum as part of his 'serice' and is now an ex-premie.

I don't know of anybody else, although I am aware of one Aussie who is now also an ex, who participated in some PR discussions in Brisbane, I think, which might be what you were referring to. She posts as 'TD' on the Forum occasionally, and is also a great person, who I got to meet recently.

Regarding resignations in PR in NAM, I note that EV has job openings for that position, as well as the head of 'security' for North America. Given the current 'below-the-radar' positioning of EV, one wonders what this person will do.

Later the impact of EPO was judged to be more critical - I would say in a conversation between M and JMB - and proposals for two websites were contemplated

Do you have any idea why EPO became 'more critical? Also, up until then, Maharaji had been publicly dishing the Internet and in the early years of EPO premies were actually contacted by Booth Dyess and David Coyne and asked NOT to talk about knowledge or Maharaji on the internet, and that such were M's wishes. Seems there was a reversal on that by 1999.

At the time I was disturbed by the direction in which the FAQs were going but I was too compliant to want to overly rock the boat.

Compliant -- meaning you didn't want to disagree because of fear of some reprisal, like being kicked off the team? Is that what you mean? Did anyone else mention this discrepancy?

These 'insights' were inevitably diluted in the general porridge of write and re-write, but in the end (and this is an assumption on my part) it would boil down to JMB presenting a draft FAQ to M and him saying yay or nay.

That was always my suspicion. I couldn't imagine that any public statements about M wouldn't have his direct approval. I always thought it was laughable that premies would say M didn't have anything to do with, or approve the FAQs on the EV website.

It was like an e-zine, and an editorial team operated out of England for the initial collation. There may have been another team in the US.

Does this just mean the draft kept being circulated, and anyone on the team could modify it?

In a sense it added legitimacy to EPO, seeing that EV regarded its opponents as meriting a response, and the analysis of the FAQs by people like you and Jim would lead people thinking of exing to consider the matter more deeply, as would disinterested onlookers.

Again, I'm just amazed at how inept it really was. I mean, they talked about these scurrilous attacks being leveled on the internet, but never said where you could read them. But of course, that kind of statement just sent people running off to find out what EV was responding to. It Ain't So and Please Consider This, did much the same thing.

The FAQs and the Press Kit would have had input from dozens of people world-wide on the First Class network.

Can you explain a little about what 'First Class' is? How does it work, who is on it, how does one get on it, etc.?

As to It Ain't So - and this is a big assumption for which I can offer no direct proof - I think that website was the bastard child of the originally proposed website I worked on, but stripped of intellectual vitality and rigour.

Was the late Pia Grunbaum part of the International PR team?

In the meantime, ignoring EPO and its attendant issues may prove to be the most effective strategy, especially when your leader is not prepared to face his critics or the media head-on. He knows what will happen if he gets angry with the sleeping tiger. He does not have the kind of rhinoceros hide (lot of animal metaphors here) which politicians develop to deal with journalists, nor will he give an inch of ground publicly on his status or lifestyle. He's unlikely to publicly renounce the idea of master like Krishnamurti, or say, 'I fucked up and am going to make some changes', or 'Fuck you, money and morality have got nothing to do with spirituality, and I'll live my life how I please' (which would be an honest opinion to present to the media), so his PR team has no room to move. Consume, be silent, and die.

Have you ever heard anyone discuss with M, the possibility of him 'coming clean' in some kind of public way to try to get the controversies behind him? Is that just considered beyond the pale?

Thanks McDuck for your throughtful responses.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:21:33 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: More on McDuck's Response re 'PR'
Message:
Joe,

You asked 'Do you have any idea why EPO became 'more critical?''

I'd say because it was seen not to be going away. The proposal was to create a strong cyber-presence which would present an alternative source of information for premies and the media.

You asked, 'Compliant -- meaning you didn't want to disagree because of fear of some reprisal, like being kicked off the team?
Is that what you mean? Did anyone else mention this discrepancy?'

No, I was compliant by allowing my critical faculties to be dimmed by my devotion. There was no fear of reprisal. Critical issues were raised but obviously not strongly enough.

You asked: 'Does this just mean the draft kept being circulated, and anyone on the team could modify it?'

Various people were asked to be editorial consultants, and I was one of them, giving input to the UK editors. Stuff didn't to do the international rounds like the FAQ and press kit. Who made the final decisions I don't know, because I was out of PR half way through the process.

You asked: 'Can you explain a little about what 'First Class' is? How does it work, who is on it, how does one get on it, etc.?'

First Class is a type of business software which provides an intranet via the internet. I don't know if it has any premie connection. EV bought a software package and tailored it, or had it tailored, to its own needs. Basically, you log on via password, using an FC setting for your business, or in this case EV. The graphic interface is a desktop containing folders relevant to your areas of service. You can send messages and join in real time chat, a bit like ICQ.
In EV's case, individuals would be provided with a username and password by the local EV webmaster instructed by the national contact. The FC community is quite diverse, ranging from PAMs to local contacts. I would hazard that thousands of messages are sent worldwide each day.

You asked: 'Was the late Pia Grunbaum part of the International PR team?'

No, I don't think so.

You asked: 'Have you ever heard anyone discuss with M, the possibility of him 'coming clean' in some kind of public way to try to get the controversies behind him? Is that just considered beyond the pale?'

No, I haven't, and I wouldn't like to be the one to try it on.

Regards,

McDuck

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:23:35 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Thank You McDuck -- and another question
Message:
Thanks so much.

We can now wait and see what great strategy the PR geniuses come up with.

I do have a question about Jean Marie Bonthous.

I have been informed by a couple of people, including one current premie and two recent-exes, that Jean Marie is, saying it diplomatically, VERY difficult to work with. From what I have been told, many people do not like working with him, with some mutterings about condescension. And yet I understand he is now in charge.

[Personally, I had only one interraction with him way back around 1981 when he came to San Francisco to check out Davies Symphony Hall as a venue for Maharaji to speak. He was impressed, which was easy because Davies is probably one of the more beautiful halls in the world and had state of the art acoustics, lighting, systems, etc. So, he seemed pretty nice, and he was quite civil to me, although that's not what I am hearing from others.]

Have you heard those same things? Is he typical of the managerial style of the people M puts in charge?

I say this partly because of my experience in the past. Some wonderful people (Dennis Marciniak, Bob Mishler, and others) were put in charge of the organization at certain points, but they never seemed to last too long. Then, Maharaji would select somebody like David Smith, who had ZERO interpersonal skills to run things, particularly to run PEOPLE, and almost everyone hated him, and, of course, absolutely nothing happened -- everything was paralyzed.

Do you think this is intentional, or are those just the people who tend to rise to the top because of the way they are?

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:45:29 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Thank You McDuck -- and another question
Message:
I've heard from US sources that JMB is difficult to work with. Most of my communication with him was via FC and there was no problem, though he could be abrupt at times.

Various EV managers I have known have been very pleasant, so I don't think there's an institutionalised pattern. I think it's like any organisation, especially the bigger ones - you're bound to have your share of arseholes

McDuck

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:30:15 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Probably true regarding assholes and non-assholes. Thanks for your insights.
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:30:51 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Another question, McDuck
Message:
Hey there Michael. What specifically was it about EPO that made it a source of concern for EV and Maharaji? What information needed to be rebutted that appears on EPO or the forum?

Do you have any speculation about who was behind the CAC site? If you have answered this question before, I missed it.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:49:19 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Another question, McDuck
Message:
Marianne,

The general thrust was that EPO was providing negative information and a positive response, not necessarily to counter accusations head-on, was needed.

Having no evidence, I have no speculation on the origins of the CAC site.

McDuck

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:11:54 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Francesca check your email ok?(ot)
Message:
Got a plan you may like to read about.
Thanks
Talk to you later.
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 17:34:14 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji's statement re wealth
Message:
Maharaji's condescending and incredibly out-of-touch statement about needing millions and that being rich is 'not what you think,' has been quoted as an example of when Maharaji stumbles onto his own motivations to be a cult leader and accidently blurts it out. This is the quote:

...Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.'

- Maharaji Long Beach - 95

Granted, this shows that money is his primary objective, and how he never has enough, but aside from that, what is he actually saying?

Is he saying that if you have a million you need more because you might lose the million, like on taxes or something? Or does he mean he might spend it, and then it's gone and he will need another million or else he has to get a job?

What is the 'protect' business all about?

By the way, one other time I remember Maharaji speaking with this same 'let them eat cake' mentality. One time, in the bare-bones satsang room at DECA, Maharaji went on and on about his new, red Ferrari, and how cool it was. This, to ashram premies, who had tattered clothes and $1 a week allowances. He hadn't a clue how bizarre it sounded.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:08:49 (EST)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji's statement re wealth
Message:
Hi there,

I reckon that he's saying, and I believe somewhat correctly, that when you have a goal/desire and you reach it it no longer seems so lofty and it doesn't quite satisfy. Of course certain goals have these ideas built in - money of itself is a stupid goal and a stupid measure of wealth. I often remember a harekrishna person reminding me that desire is endless. I see it in myself, my kids and those around me.

And I mean, what is a million dollars these days. In some parts of Australia - it means a house. I've a friend whose parents sold their house of 45 years for 1.1 million - simply because development started around them and their land became very valuable. It was only a crappy house on an ok size block - but in the right area - but not when they bought it. Other parts of Brisbane you can still buy a house for 70,000 - 80,000. A decent house too.

My experience has often been in the past that the more money I make the more I feel I need. So when I got to one million I felt it was a pittance and I needed another. Once I had one house I then needed another. At least this was the case until the last time I went broke about a decade ago trying for alls those extra peices. And then I found the bliss of poverty all over again as I bummed a room at my parents place.

As for why he says it - well I reckon he thinks we (devotees anyway)are all keen to know, undertand and appreciate him more. And I remember way back, KK saying how his avariciousness was what drove her away - she couldn't stand the over-focus by him on getting more and more money and at the same time wasting it so trivially. We need to understand, in this round about way, that it is a tough imposition we are laying on the lord by giving him all this wealth. He is after all doing us a favour by accepting it. Cleansing our souls probably!

I also remember his story abou the rich man who lived next door to the poor man (yeah like that happens). The rich man was envious of the good time had by the poor man. So he left $99 out for the poor man. The poor man got it and unstead of spending it and having another good time - decided that he would earn the extra $1 to make $100. and once he had done that he wanted to earn another dollar etc, and was miserable and hooked as well. Anyway - while a somewhat negative view of human nature - I think this also referes to the quote given.

Cheers for now

Peter Howie
Brisbane, Australia

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 14:25:14 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Re: Maharaji's statement re wealth
Message:
I think Maharaji was making an honest comment on what he has been doing with the money he has been given.

I think he is telling us that he has been spending spending spending, expecting an endlessly increasing amount of money to be given to him to service his lifestyle, and that if he doesn't get that money, he will have to start selling yachts.

Unless, of course, he is more prudent than he appears, and is saying that for every million that he spends, he likes to put a million away in a swiss bank account, but I doubt it somehow, I think he genuinely thought he would just be given more and more and more money.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:10:35 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Re: Maharaji's statement re wealth
Message:
Peter,

I think it's one thing to say that money won't buy you happiness, but it's something else, and I think it's nuts to say that if you have a million, you have to have another million to protect it, and that it's a drag being rich. Not only that, Maharaji is awfully hypocritical to say that, and then all the while glom on to more money until he's worth $50 million (US).

He speaks in absolutes about this, and yet I have never felt that it was 'necessary' for me to make more money, once I had the basic, nice life, I mean, and I am much happier having more money than less. I don't have to worry about finances, and it greatly increases my options in life. Would I be happy with less money, probably, at least not any less happy than I am, but that's a different question.

And to suggest it is 'hard' to have lots of money is ridiculous, condescending and wrong. Of course it's easier to live if you have lots of money than if you don't. It might not affect your level of happiness, but I think M is only speaking for hiimself when he says you have to have more millions to 'protect' the millions you have, and that it's some kind of burden. I think frankly that he is driven by money, and always has been. He's completely fixated on it, and then tries to suggest that others would be the same way if they had it. I don't buy that for a minute.

Joe

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:33:52 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ...that little adjustment....
Message:
When I saw a video of him saying that, I took it as the master in playful mood taking the piss out of worldly ambition.

Ridiculing the Randolph Hearst mentality that too much is never enough.

I reckon he could say that with a straight face because,being born to the purple & all, he can't imagine that he's in the same bracket(spiritually speaking), as those guys who sweated their balls off only to find that they couldn't pass through the eye of the needle come grim reaper time.

Stupid fuckers : you've got to float above all that if you want to be Satguru, then hey...guess what ....you get it all without lifting a finger.

I'm glad I never lived in an ashram,especially one with an intimate connection to the divine whim,his by right of birth & never mind the peasants,plenty more where they came from.

It just takes a little adjustment to see it that way.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:10:52 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Yo cracker! whats up?(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:04:20 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: ...that little adjustment....
Message:
Stupid fuckers : you've got to float above all that if you want to be Satguru, then hey...guess what ....you get it all without lifting a finger.

If Maharaji floats, it'll be as a blimp. Yeah, interesting philosophy. Something like 'seek ye first the kingdom of heaven, then all things will come to you.' Jesus said that. I think it was Jesus, in fact, who started all this anti-materialism mentality, him and his 'easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven' stuff. Maharaji slightly modified the philosophy (for his own benefit, no doubt) by stating that it's okay to be wealthy, just don't be attached to your wealth. What a crock, eh? Jeez, and we actually ate that shit. Blech!

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:10:54 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'the Mercedes owner,the practical man' [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 18:33:34 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji's statement re wealth
Message:
Maybe what he's saying is that money can never make you happy because it's never enough. Of course, he would know but that's beside the point, that being that he's preaching against money, not for it. All I have to say to Maharaji is 'Anytime you want to get rid of it, let me know and I'll take it off your hands if it's too much for you.'
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:49:00 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: It's Ridiculous on It's Face...
Message:
GET REAL

I know too many rich folk to know that money is never enough and it doesn't prevent misery. It's a bit nicer to be going through a life crisis with enough dough to take a spa on a tropical island than suffer it out by going to food shelves and waiting in the unemployment line while the wife is sitting in the welfare office.

Get real.

Money begets money. Money attracts money. Conmen get money while poor people don't attract a cent until it's the holidays or someone has a tragedy. Canned turkey or a ham, canned beans on toast.

Let HIM eat it.

Get real.

In American, while millions have been collected for 911 victims, still 2% of our children go to bed hungry EVERY DAY.

Mercedes? Benz? Porsches? Give me a running vehicle and I'll find you a grateful human being. Who isn't rich.

Get real.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 18:12:16 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji's statement re wealth
Message:
I was unfortunately in attendance at that Long Beach gig. I remember him also babbling something about Hansi's new truck or some kind of garbage like that.
Do you think he is really that out of touch with what is appropriate to mention or is he just passive aggressively insulting his mostly struggling audience?
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:22:30 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hang in their Gerry
Message:
You have my support. Don't know how thread evolved last night. It didn't look so bad to me. Some posts did, but not the thread. But you have to do what you have to do and people could always try reposting.

IMHO, I find it sinfully ironic that Jim's thread announcing that 'he and Katie have finally worked things out' to became a catalyst for anger and verbal abuse. Acutually, it's quite bizarre.

I hope that Jim's post can stay for prosperity, because that would be a shame to delete. The rest of the posts, whatever

Have a better day, take a deserved break, and get a little distance between your health and the board.

cheers,

deb

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 11:04:04 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Thanks, Deb
Message:
I appreciate your support and it reminds me of the time the Houston cops threw me into city jail a couple weeks after the Millenium program. They not only took my belt but my eyeglasses as well. They thought I might smash out the lenses and cut my own throat for riding the freight trains. Not!

I'm perfectly fine. You see, I've the secret to longevity on the forum: DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY and telephone and email help smooth relationships and increase understanding exponentially.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 14:27:17 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Glad to Hear That...Ger...
Message:
Hi Gerry,

I appreciate your work and efforts to keep us wacky bunch of folks together.

Everybody has an opinion, doncha know...and I do too.

Can you imagine m singing? Dog and pony show...LOLOL!

Love,
Cynth

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:47:03 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: He's not their Gerry
Message:
He's our Gerry. And I don't think we should hang him in anything.

Anth the oblong bleak winter.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:00:59 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: My luck, an ex-cult teacher [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:41:30 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Bleak Winter?
Message:
In my parts we're dyin' for winter. Last week the temps were up to 60 deg. F, and in December, in Vermont, that's hot.

We want snow. More and more snow and cold temperatures....

We depend on it. Our economy is going throught the tubes....

Stop arguing folks,
Cynth, with only 3 inches of snow and hoping....

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:22:48 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Isn't it amazing
Message:
Isn't it amazing, the internet, that is. I can sit here in London and get instant weather reports from all over the world. I can talk with invisible people who I've not met and then get back to my normal life again with its highs and lows, problems and successes which are unconnected to Maharaji or premies.

The internet has had a major impact upon Maharaji's organisation. And I've watched it all from my office chair on a computer.

Maybe it's a computer game. These days I'm not playing it any more but I do like to watch now and then.

There is much truth in the old adage, 'As you sow, so you reap'. Nothing to do with karma but more to do with the scientific principle of action and reaction.

A clash of cultures? Maharaji has never truly become westernised. His thinking is steeped in a feudal past and he'll never really understand quite what went wrong in the West. He hasn't understood the Western mind, although we can say here, that perhaps we have understood the Eastern one.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:29:15 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: pullaver@yahoo.ca
To: All
Subject: F.A.!
Message:
I am disturbed to notice that my response post to Moley (who was re-posting Nigel's response to me re civility on the forum) was deleted. What remains is only Deborah's comments to me without the context of my two responses. Meanwhile, Nigel's original post to me, further down, remains (without my response). This exchange was brief (maybe 3 posts) and appropos to comments made by others regarding F7's hospitality, therefore not OT and disconnected to the exchanges here. Since you made this decision (which I don't agree with and seems arbitary) you could have at least deleted all other related posts. I find your editorial decisions entirely inappropriate since you have allowed other very long threads to remain which are humorous and containing much latin but not quite as relevant.
What gives?
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:01:22 (EST)
From: suchus bananus
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: someone deleted my best Latin marji jokes
Message:
so, join da loosers' club awweddy, Pullaver. some of dat stuff took me hours to post. There were some good jibes at da Emperor rawrat. sheesh! ok, No more Latin for me. Somebody spoiled da toga party. Bunch of sponge-stick party poopers!

pax et lenticulae,

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:27:59 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: pullaver@yahoo.ca
To: suchus bananus
Subject: mea culpa
Message:
Don't get me wrong such, I loved it, even though the only latin I know is pig latin. I might be your biggest fan on this forum, I was only trying to draw attention to what I thought were curious editorial decisions regarding what is OT. Apparently, I was mistaken . . . sorry to hear you lost a bunch of your posts as well.
ockray et ollray
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:40:14 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Re: F.A.!
Message:
I'm not going to try to fix it now. I was trying to delete the fight club thread and as usual, the wonderful Hotboards software made it difficult to do correctly and easy to f*ck -up. Sorry.

PS Ugly fights suck and so I deleted them. Light hearted discussions on the Latin stuff were entirely fine. If you disagree so much with my editorial decisions then you can always start your own board or go to anything goes 2. Or whatever. You have choices. Vote with your feet. Be proactive.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 18:05:18 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: pullaver@yahoo.ca
To: gerry
Subject: Re: F.A.!
Message:
Gerry, it appeared that you had made editorial decisions regarding the small thread I was involved with. I don't know much about the shortcomings of the Hotboards software but admit I find it strange a glitch in the software could selectively remove only my posts from a thread. If this is indeed the case I apologize for getting in your face about it.

BTW, my post to you had nothing to do with your decision to delete the many 'fight club' posts. It was about the seeming arbitrary decision to remove my posts (given the nature of other threads like the latin one) and leave intact the posts I was responding to.

I can appreciate that the FA's of this forum (and all the others) are overworked and under-appeciated and I'm not exactly a paying customer given my domestic situation (single dad of two kids). However I don't think asking questions deserves an invitation to leave.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:57:03 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: re: hotboards software problems...
Message:
Hi Gerry:

I had emailed you at the address you listed at the top of the forum, regarding some communications I have had with Hotboards regarding software problems.

I also wanted to let you know that I've made a page of emoticon codes and posted a link to it at the top of the AG2 forum. You can also link to the page from here, if you like.
[ Emoticon Directory ]

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 17:29:34 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Much obliged Chuck...
Message:
And I've been meaning to tell you all my efforts are going towards the new software and the new server. I haven't the time or inclination to fuss when Hotboards. I finally making progress after satsang over the phone from Roger Drek.
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 17:59:17 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Yes, Roger gives great Satsang }) (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:05:26 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: Yes, Roger gives great}) (nt)
Message:
ROFL
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 14:59:21 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Power Trips.
Message:
Gerry,

I think banning Salam for his post below is way over the top. You didn't even give him chance to explain what he was talking about, and he may have had a very good point which you'd missed.

Also, I think it's a big mistake for whoever is FA to make the job personal, and use the position to further a personal viewpoint, no matter how valid it seems.

Salam has always been a valuable, if colourful and controversial contributor to the forum and I think your response is way over the top.

It's bit like bombing every city in country until there are no buildings left, because there's a suspected terrorist hiding out in the desert somewhere.

So why don't you try talking in a civilised, or even semi-civilised manner with Salam? What's the problem?

Anth, am I locked and banned yet?

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 17:00:11 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: No pleasing the limeys
Message:
I thought you told Gerry to make the most of his power, Anth. I think he's handling it very cool, calm and collected and don't mind having my diatribes deleted. They were fun to write and I got it off my chest even if no one else saw them.

And I never said: ''White man speak with forked thongs.'' I said: ''Man in sling shouldn't wear thong.'' The last time you did you got your tits in a tangle. And I've got photos.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:36:40 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: It's the same old thong.
Message:
Hi Pat,

I think he's doing OK too. But power corrupts, and power on the forum corrupts four times more quickly. He's already well on the way to joining the undead, and selling his soul to Santa.

Shit, look what happened to me. I used to earn $3000 dollars a week, have apartments in London, Paris and Utrecht. Now I'm hiding out on a cliff in a wooden hut in the boonies, hiding from creditors, living on handouts and raw mussels. And it's all because of Forum 5. And what thanks do I get? Nothing but demands for cash (see above) and threats to publish pictures of me in my thong. OK, so I got pissed, put on a pink thong and shagged a few soft toys. OK, eDrek was behind the curtain with a camera.

Shit, there's no need to kick a guy when he's down.

Anth, there's a thong in my heart just for you.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:19:53 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: dern pommie busybody
Message:
Anth, blocking Salam is akin to making him ride a mule instead of that nag he usually rides. He still gets to camp in time fer supper. Besides, I took the hobbles off a long time ago.

Salam don't take it personal and neither do I. And we straightened the matter out real gentlemanlike already thank you very much.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:04:28 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Power Trips.
Message:
Anth
I posted something similar and the post was removed.
Z
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:10:49 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: So what's going on Gerry?
Message:
Did you kick Zelda's post off too?

Anth, wondering how long I've got left on the forum.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:30:11 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Your time might be short ,your choice
Message:
I wholesaled off a buncha post in them two long fight threads. Some posts I didn't read and I'm sure they were fine and I regret anyone's loss however inconvenient. Now listen to this: All fightin's gonna be done outside. Period. Anybody that starts a fight gets throwed in jail for an indeterminate amount of time.

If you don't like my FA'ing you can always saddle up and ride out into the cybersunset, cowboy. Or you can join some other outfit. I don't need no busybody pommie sittin' on his ass never sending a dime or anything else except criticism, nitpickin' and second guessing my every decision.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:41:54 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry, you need a holiday.
Message:
I've been there mate. I know what it's like. You're up all night, killing trolls trying to take over your kingdom, then, in the morning, when the corpses litter the floor, in march the Royal Guard and turn on the King.

You slave away night after night, bleary eyed and strung out, wondering why the FAs have all resigned, or disappeared, keeping the ship off the rocks. Then the passengers wake up and complain because their breakfast isn't ready. They're just a bunch of pampered pussies, who know nothing and do less.

OK, so you get no thanks. But there's no need for everyone to kick you in the teeth, right?

Someone has to tell you Gerry. You've lost it. You're cracking up. Look in the mirror. It's not the guy who took on the job is it? Hold your hand our straight. It's shaking right? You think someone put microphones in your hat, but you've lost your hat so you can't prove it.

I've been there man. I can read the signs. You need a holiday.

I hear Canada's nice this time of year.

Agony Anth your friendly Forum Pal.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:49:58 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Not until I get this herd to Montana
Message:
I ain' quittin' and I ain't takin' no vacation in the middle of cattle drive, you musta been smoking that loco weed the cook's always rollin' up.

Now listen here, Anth, I knows yer a nice english feller and all but I'm gettin nowhere fast jaw-bonin' pleasantries with a gentleman like yerself. So if y'all don't mind, I've got work to do.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:59:14 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek &his phantom pal barney
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Gerry, I can help out if ya need me to
Message:
Ger,

As a former FA I know what it's like too. And I can help out if ya need a break from breathing in all of that trail dust so ya can clear out your lungs and start getting the O2 back into your brain.

And I promise that I won't send no porno email to all the chicks like the last time. The treatment and the fancy medication is keeping all of that in check now.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 18:37:53 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek &his phantom pal barney
Subject: some more suggestions:
Message:
1) accept Roger's offer. Any other offers from trustworthy folks?

2) unblock Salam [hope you were just jokin', gerry]. He's me ol' dungi beetle matey, from way back -- several hundred incarnations, actually! Salam has a good heart, and he's obviously Nobody's doggy slave.

3) keep the gnarly ex-phlegmie spats off the forum -- sort out interpersonal misunderstandings by email. otherwise, it's very counter-productive to the forum -- and creates an ugly contagious mess -- a big turn-off. let's all watch our language a lil' better [and attitudes] in talking to each other - fer cryin' out Lard.

4) FA role should be neutral, composed, fair and even-handed. With all love and respect, Pat, please don't get too carried away. We don't need no stinkin' Reign of Terror -- vis a vis the Jacobins and the Girondists. As we know very well, power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. hehehe

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:41:42 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: The only power I used...
Message:
Such said: ''4) FA role should be neutral, composed, fair and even-handed. With all love and respect, Pat, please don't get too carried away. We don't need no stinkin' Reign of Terror -- vis a vis the Jacobins and the Girondists. As we know very well, power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. hehehe''

Such, the only power that I used in the latest episode was the power of the spoken word. I was not acting in my capacity as asst. FA. In that capacity I have simply wielded power a few times to delete spam in the past. Currently I have not had any work to do and, once Gerry gets the new forum on line, there will be no need for a spam-deleter as it will be fairly self-monitoring.

Even if I were in Gerry's position where he wields the ultimate power: to pull the plug if he wishes, I would not refrain from speaking my mind. If I'm wrong I apologise. If I'm right but not supported that's fine too. I'm not out to win popularity contests or run for election.

Of course I know what you mean and agree with you but it does not apply to me. I have no desire to wield any power other than the power of the written word and, as I am not totally powerful with the written word, I cannot be totally corrupt in its use.

Asst FA really does not have any power. If Gerry no longer needs my help, he can simply say so.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:29:41 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: ok, It's the power of love [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:40:49 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Watch our language?
Message:
Such, you smeghead, we don't fucking watch our language, we speak it and write it, bollocks for brains. Shit, didn't those bastards teach you anything at fucking school.

Anth, what is this, a fucking, bollocking, shagarsed Christian tea fucking party. Fucking fuck that.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:06:52 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: where's the soap? Say 'aahhh'! LOL
Message:
Dear ANThal sphincter:

At least I have some 'grande huevos,' ye pusillanimous bitch. On the contrary, the Brit chicks told me you were dickless, as well as being dumber than a diarrheac turd. Indeed, one of your fundamental problems is that your mouth is exceedingly bigger than your piddly lil penis, which still dwarfs your pathetic excuse of a one-cell amoebic brain, you revolting guttersnipe.

btw, 'Ant-h' sounds like some kind of a crawling bug with h-emorhoids wearing pink lace panties. Hey, sissy boy, Never be so idiotic as to insult or get in a pissing match with suchabanana, ya lil' pinprick. hahaha

Speaking of school, Anth, maybe you need to be taken to school by a real HeadMassa, you ignorant insufferable douchebag. Lessee, where's that hickory stick? Oh, here it is - underneath your report card, you unmitigated moron. I see you have failing grades again, dumbass. Especially in the Language Arts.

Ok, bend over and assume the position, kid. And don't forget to say after each whack, 'Sir, may I have another?'

THEN, you may bring me some tea. And don't forget to wear a longer dress next time, too, bitch. You've got ugly legs -- in additon to the stinking arse masquerading as your face.

oh yeah, pees and urinals,

ROFL

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:02:37 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Welcome to suburbia Anth (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:14:42 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Fuck that bollocks Ham. (nt)
Message:
Suburbia? We dream of suburbia round here.

Anth the rurally underpriveleged

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:31:13 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Sssshh
Message:
so where the fuck you hangin out now, thought you were in the wilds of utretcht?

don't forget you can swear over at
http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=hamzen

but the forum admin there are very anti guru talk of any kind,
and its kinda like rural, few people, minimum noise, days go by with no site of people at all

and can you believe when I did live in the wilds of west wales, on a 50 acre farm surrounded by mushrooms and no people, I was religiously anti-drugs and not into very loud music!!

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:50:58 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Hiya bro'
Message:
Hi Ham,

Dot and I are hiding out in a cabin on a cliff in Cornwall. I've been doing lots of fishing (that's code for hanging around on a beach, drinking beer, holding a stick), and am writing some of my own stuff, learning chromatic harmonica, trying to paint with water colours, and turning into a long haired dropout again.

How's things in the big city?

Anth the beau he me an.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:29:24 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: You can't say b*ll*cks here [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:53:56 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Sorry Gerry.
Message:
it was the rugs that made me do it. I deny everything. It was somebody else. I wasn't in control.

OK I'll go and wash my mouth out with soap and water and promise to be good forever more.

Anth, trying very very very hard not to swear. Phew, made it.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:01:35 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Shit Fuck Piss
Message:
Come on now, shit, fuck, piss, damnation, goddamm, fuck, cunt, hysterectomy, racism, cults, motherfucker, conman, shifobrains, fuck, fuck, fuck.

Now stop all this arguin...doncha know it's the LARD OF THE UNIVARSES BIRTHDAY?

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:55:39 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hey Cynthia. (ot)
Message:
I think we must be soul mates. Do you go fishing and play blues harmonica?

Anth, over the hill and far away.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 21:24:58 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Hey Cynthia. (ot)
Message:
Yes, Anth, I go fishing, but I sing the blues...

Cynthia, not an ice fisherman, however...

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 15:32:53 (EST)
From: Andrea Eriksonn
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You're all VERY NAUGHTY ex-students! (NT)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:07:26 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek &his phantom pal barney
Subject: Hey Roger.
Message:
Howya doin' old buddy. Are you still working in that brothel in Southern California? If so, could you ask Fifi if she found my glasses, fishing rod, and hash pipe yet? Tell her she can keep the jar of piccalli and the Superman cape. She looks better in it than I do.

Anth the sporty with tumeric and malt vinegar.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:06:22 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: Roger eDrek &his phantom pal barney
Subject: Dern right I need help
Message:
and bring that six-foot white rabbit you had with ya the last time. He was a right nice feller and smart, too!

Maybe together we could all figger out this cgi stuff and uploading and all that crap that's keepin' me from just throwin my blanket on the ground and sleepin' sound the whole night through.

Roger, I appreciate your kind offer and you can help me greatly by applying your learned assistant to this present IT project I got floppin' around like calf at gelding time. Please email asap.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:18:36 (EST)
From: Calamity Jane
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Cowboy Noir
Message:
I ain't no good at this cgi (cultus guruis internationalus?) stuff, uploadin' and downloadin' I don' know about, but I been praktising my videeyo rodeeo games, so Cowboy Gerry, if you done need summa my help ropin' these smelly bulls, you just call on me, ya hear? I'm might handy in them there parts...kinda like a cowgal Friday. Now, where's my chawin' tobakker and spittoon? Thas the only uploadin' and downloadin' I know how ta do...
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:53:20 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Calamity Jane
Subject: Re: Cowboy Noir
Message:
Why, bulls don't smell, not even when they's studdin'. Tell ya whut do smell and that's a dern billygoat. Stinks to high heaven. You kin smell his rut two miles downwind on a calm day. You sure you aint a dirt farmer from Nebrasky?
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 17:21:05 (EST)
From: Belle Starr
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: A Cowboy's Guide to Life
Message:
Now read here.

'nough a that fussin' and acuzin' bull shit don't stink it smells purty...

Nawin' on 'bacie your brains aint sittin' still. cowboys. Git on them ponies round up the herd and watch them spurs...

Fightin' over nothin' crimmineys sake!

http://users.wpmedia.com/~csswain/humor.html
[ Never Squat With Your Spurs On ]

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:55:39 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hope the Apaches get you.
Message:
Because we all know, 'White men speak in short thongs.' (Pat showed me the photos.)

Adios Amigo,

Anthronimo

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:07:01 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek &his phantom pal barney
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Ger, don't take no guff from Frontier Gentleman
Message:
In every episode of the old time radio show, Frontier Gentleman, the stagecoach or cattle drive stops for tea time and then the bad guys or the injuns get the upper hand.

Don't listen to this guy, Anth. Nothing but trouble.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 13:46:56 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: some Attributes of a Good forum
Message:
Attributes of a good forum -- my own perceptions:

1. common civility and empathy for others.

2. right to respectfully initiate, respond, agree, politely disagree, disengage.

3. when debating with others, stick to issues, not acrimonious, vulgar, or denigrating personal attacks [however disguised]. Be fair, ethical, open-minded to at least hear/consider others' perspectives.

4. respect other posters' personal rights to their own privacy, security concerns, well-being, and boundaries/space.

5. as much as possible, try not to take things too personally. it's easy to misunderstand other people and likewise be misunderstood. Where socially appropriate/necessary, apologize/forgive.

6. show/exercise kindness, whenever possible.

7. constructive fellowship sure looks and feels better than acrimony and nit-picking against one another.

8. while we do share significant factors of empirical commonality here, each person is walking in an individual pair of shoes, and our respective journeys bring us home to our true selves and nature.

9. practice egalitarian, democratic principles and guidelines and consensus-building; avoid cultlike peer pressures/conformity/sanctions.

10. Altruistic management/FA monitoring/ operations/finances

11. the moving hands type and then move on, but once posted, written words are hard to retract. be conscious of one's own emotions/state of mind and intent when writing and reread before posting.

12. Never post anything that could jeopardize the security of another legit poster, or which might cause legal trouble for the website and its admin, or which might incite criminal harm/injury against another [even as a joke].

13. Do not respond to dirty cult tricks in kind.

14. In general, contribute enthusiastically, thoughtfully, and in the spirit of cooperation and co-existence.

15. Offer assistance, correct information, knowledge/skills, when such assistance is needed or requested, however you can or are willing.

16. The forum is a great place: to learn new things, uncover/discover truth, share information and experiences, heal, grow, make friends, and possibly find some closure, new understandings, new beginnings, in a healthy and supportive internet environment that fosters freedom of personal growth, choices, and discovery.

17. Last but not least: Maintain a healthy sense of humor. Life's baggage is a heavy burden enough. Without a lil' levity -- no levitation!

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 19:44:17 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Don't forget no fucking swearing too (nte).
Message:
no tits either.
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 23:24:29 (EST)
From: suchus bananus
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: glubi! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 12:33:16 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: All
Subject: From Ground Zero (OT)
Message:
Greetings.

On Friday, my wife and I visited with friends in Manhatten. We saw the ice skaters at Rockefeller Center, browsed the decorated shop windows and sat in Saint Patrick's Cathederal for a bit of peace and quiet. A quintessential American Christmas time. After a great Chinese dinner, we drove down to Ground Zero. We parked as close as we could and walked around.

It was eerily quiet and everything had a coating of grey dust. Someone had told us to find the church closest to where the World Trade Center once stood. We could see the cranes struggling through the rubble under stadium-type lights but the messages hung on the church fence was heart breaking. There were personal messages like 'I'll miss you daddy' and 'So long, my dear friend.' There were hand made posters from school classes around the country and huge posters covered with signatures. In the church yard cemetery, the headstones were rear-lit by the rescue workers lights. I only wish I had the presence of mind to snap a photo to share.

As we were walking along, a group of policemen barricaded the sidewalk and we stood as two ambulances drove through. The police saluted and we learned that we had witnessed victims being taken away. Very powerful and moving.

Now a clumsy segue to on topic. The destroyed buildings and politics are insignificant compared to the human tragedy that is in evidence. It was heart-wrenching to see even a fraction of the personal loss. In a similar way, it's the ground Zero of human damage that's been done by M that is important here.

Richard, feeling solemn

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:43:21 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thanks Richard, very powerful
Message:
Richard,

Thanks for the eye-witness account. Like Cynthia, I still get teary-eyed when I hear the descriptions.

I don't know if others have been following this, but since 9/11, the New York Times has been running obituaries, with pictures, on every single person who died at WTC. There are about 12-15 everyday and it will take them almost a year to do it. They are fairly big obituaries, with a picture and several paragraphs for each person.

So, everyday on the subway I read them and every day I get teary-eyed, because these are real faces, and they are just ordinary people like all of us.

Anyhow, I don't know if people have been following this, but the original estimates of over 6,000 dead at WTC have been revised down to between 3,200 and 3,500. Still awful, but not as bad as everyone feared at first.

Thanks again, Richard and have a great time in the Big Apple.

Joe

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 15:09:35 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: From Ground Zero (OT)
Message:
Richard,

How do you feel about the thousands of innocent victims in Afghanistan, bombed in their homes, paid for with your dollars?

Isn't this a tragedy of similar proportions? Or was that justified, and the Afghanis are unfortunately just 'collateral damage'?

Anth, just wondering.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:26:49 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It's all tragic, Anth
Message:
Anth,

Yes, I do grieve for the thousands of Afghanis, Iraquis, Bosnians, Serbs, Rawandans, Israelis, Palestinians, Northern and Southern Irish... shall I go on? Countless millions of people have been lost to pointless politics and zealotry.

I was simply reporting a personal experience of witnessing loss and tragedy that happened in my own land. These were deceased whose wake I was able to attend. For myself, it represents all other deaths in the name of God or Nation. None are justified.

Richard, just grieving

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 18:58:10 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thanks Richard.
Message:
Sometimes I get all het up and have to let it out or I'll pop.

I appreciate you reply. Thanks for that.

Anth the nutter.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 13:13:58 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Thanks Richard.
Message:
Anth,

No problem. It's not as if us Yanks don't sometimes act like we are the first people to have been dealt such a blow. I'm glad you understand I wasn't coming from that attitude, though.

Richard the why can't we all just get along

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:49:43 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I'll Answer that...
Message:
It's all horrible, how can you ask that question now Anthony?

Why is everyone so argumentative now? Is it...hmmmm....the HOLIDAYS coming up?

Just MAYBE?

Let's play nice, please.

Cynthia, 'we can work it out...'

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:13:22 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Who's arguing Cynthia?
Message:
I'm not arguing. I simply asked a question. The reason is, I keep getting beaten over the head by people reminding me how terrible the innocent deaths were on September the 11th, and nobody seems to mention how terrible the innocent deaths since September the 11th are. Why hasn't Paul McCartney hasn't done a benefit concert for the dead Afghanis.

And every time I mention this, it's like I've suddenly committed a terrible sin, and sullied the memory of the American victims. Like I need to be reminded all the time. I don't. But I think somebody needs reminding that what's happening in Afghanistan is just as bad, if not worse. You expect terror from terrorists, but governments should know better. I find the racist, one sided portrayal of the war sickening.

If the US is serious about bringing terrorists to justice, they should start in Florida, where there are plenty of torturers and murderers from South America, that were 'friendly' to the US.

Anth, all human life is precious.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:06:09 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It's an Insiteful Question...
Message:
You have to know we Americans are a bit sensitive at the moment. Not everything that's done is condoned, don't you know.

And I don't feel like arguing, but just about every thread here today is argumentative, or else I'm truly dense.

All people deserve everything. Am I god? Are you? Then what's the fucking point, Anth?

Cynthia, peace on url

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:02:42 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Am I God? Are you?
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

I think there's a clear distinction between an argument and a debate, or discussion. Just because people disagree, it doesn't mean they are aruging. Richard's reply to my question really had a positive effect on me. I'm glad I asked, and I'm glad he answered.

No, onto your questions, 'Am I God? Are you?'

I'd say, if there is such a thing as God, we are it. If there isn't such a thing, we're not.

Anth, who doesn't know his arse from his elbow most of the time.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 11:41:01 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Am I God? Are you?
Message:
Hi Anth,

I think there's a clear distinction between an argument and a debate, or discussion. Just because people disagree, it doesn't mean they are aruging. Richard's reply to my question really had a positive effect on me. I'm glad I asked, and I'm glad he answered.

I agree. Just got the jitters thinking the thread might launch into a full-blown political debate, fight, whatever.

Meanwhile find a copy of the song ''the knee bone's connected to the thigh bone....'' you know the one...

It may help you with your arse and elbow problem:)

Cynthia, with foot in mouth

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 20:49:06 (EST)
From: Zane(not Martin) Grey
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Who's arguing Cynthia?
Message:
I always hate to hear that someone has died. It's a damn shame.

Now, if we had all just taken the blue pill instead of the red, we'd probably think differently.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 19:05:07 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Zane(not Martin) Grey
Subject: I took the red pill Zane.
Message:
I took the red pill. And look what happened to me. I'm 52 and still haven't made my mind up what to be when I grow up.

Did you write lots of cowboy novels in the 50's?

Anth, sliding into the sunset.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 14:45:36 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Ground Zero/The Site
Message:
Dear Richard,

I still get teary whenever I see photos of the twin towers and when I see photos of the NYC skyline now I am struck again at their absence. I've also heard that the workers (firemen, police, iron workers) refer to it as the ''Site,'' rather than ground zero. Maybe because there are so many still lost there, I don't know.

Your words:
Now a clumsy segue to on topic. The destroyed buildings and politics are insignificant compared to the human tragedy that is in evidence. It was heart-wrenching to see even a fraction of the personal loss. In a similar way, it's the ground Zero of human damage that's been done by M that is important here.

I agree. The profound damage that Maharaji has caused us is not to be underestimated. The lost years, loss of self-esteem, degradation in the ashrams, slavery in the name of service, taking money for himself, loss of a sense of purpose, loss of hope for possibilities, the individuals who trusted him for so many years only to discover we were betrayed, are not a small woundings.

The tender parts, the ravaged heart and soul, losing the ability to express human emotions, to use rational thinking, the human potential in us that Maharaji used, abused, and distorted just for himself is what I have learned to reclaim for myself.

I don't know what it's like to be in other cults. I only know what it was like to be in the Maharajism cult. For that reason I am grateful for EPO and the forum exes for extending so much support and effort to keep this site up and available. I don't know how I could have dealt with exiting alone. Fact is, I haven't, and will continue to post here for myself and others who come here to try to make some sense out of the whole thing.

I didn't get into the cult alone, why would I think I can exit alone? Many thanks to everyone who contributes here and I encourage anyone who wants to discuss their doubts about m to take a leap and tell the truth about what happened to you, how do you feel, and what do you need?

This is not Ground Zero, but it is a ''Site'' where we meet, talk, argue, make up, explain, tell the truth, and most importantly, have a lot of laughs. Laughing is as important as crying, IMO.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:27:36 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Ground Zero/The Site
Message:
Well said Cynthia. Thanks for your heart felt eloquence.

Richard

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 05:29:17 (EST)
From: swami suchabanana
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Pat Halley letter #3: + Summation!
Message:
A Brief Introduction:
In August 1973, Maharaji [aka Prem Singh Rawat aka Guru Maharaj ji aka The Lord of the Universe aka Balyogeshwar aka The Perfect Master aka Satguru] came to Detroit for a promotional appearance to hype his upcoming event at downtown Cobo Hall, as part of the Soul Rush cult conversion campaign preceding Millenium '73 in the Houston Astrodome in November, '73. M. was to receive a key to the city, as solicited and prearranged by DLM [aka Elan Vital] operatives. At the city hall ceremony, m. was cream-pied in the face by a young protesting reporter from the Fifth Estate magazine, Patrick Halley, in a much publicized incident that appeared on the cover of the Detroit Free Press the following morning [and in major international media publications].

Afterwards, Maharaji went to the local ashram and was visibly furious in front of witnesses. Maharaji's brother Raja ji [nominal head of M.'s security force, the WPC] then allegedly began inciting m's aides, the instructors [aka mahatmas], and security personnel for revenge.

Within days, an instructor close to M. [Fakiranand] and a cult accomplice [Richard Fletcher] arrived at the Detroit ashram, and they phoned Halley and tricked him into meeting with them, under the guise of being disaffected apostates who would reveal the meditation techniques of this fake guru who was scamming people. When Halley let the cult officials into his room, they told him to close his eyes to receive the light technique, whereupon Fakiranand began bashing in Halley's skull repeatedly with a concealed metal bludgeon. Halley screamed as he went into unconsciousness, and the assassins fled. Halley was rushed to a local hospital, and barely survived -- after operations and the implantation of a permanent metal plate in his skull. He remains disfigured for life, as the result of his severe injuries from the cult's concerted assassination attempt.

Almost immediately, upon learning of the botched assassination attempt in Denver, Maharaji personally directed DLM cult official Michael Donner to aid and abet the fugitives and 'get Fakiranand out of the country' - in order to prevent their imminent capture and arrest by U.S. law officers.

Donner then flew to Detroit per M's instructions, and upon retrieving the assassins from a cult security hideout, received further instructions from the top, and then drove Fakiranand and another mahatma [instructor] to Chicago, whereupon they fled international justice by escaping on a commercial airline to India via London.

Several years later (in India), Fakiranand denounced Maharaji and said he [Fakiranand] had been ordered and coerced to kill Halley.

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On 3/9/2001 Michael Donner wrote:
'I have seen some of what has been posted on the site re this situation. I was asked by m (at bob mishler's suggestion) to fly to detroit and 'get faquiranand out of the country'.

Bob arranged for me to see m before i left to 'do pranam' at which point m told me the above quote as well as expressed his displeasure with the mahatmas involved.

There were (as I remember) probably 4 mahatmas involved in the planning and discussion of revenge on pat h. after the pie incident. Rajaswar was one and the other names i do not remember.

from the culture in india it was completely 'normal' to physically attack anyone who would dare touch the guru. revenge was a matter of honor among the mahatmas and those premies such as fletcher under their sway.

Hence, whereas m seemed very upset on one hand he was quite understanding on the other, knowing the culture he brought them from.

Seems like there were two mahatmas that i drove from detroit to chicago to put them on a plane to india. chicago-london-india.
(not canada as has been suggested elsewhere inaccurately).
obviously, my head space at the time was to obey the directions i was given as a reasonable (at the time) road to follow resulting from the incident.'

3/20/2001 more Donner recollections:
'hi again about this fakiranand thing...i do not remember who i was on the phone with...most likely mishler..mostly likely about flight arrangements from chicago.
where were they hiding before arriving to ashram to leave for chicago airport? i do not remember except that it was arranged to keep fakiranand and the unremembered other under control until i arrived. probably wpc thing...did they have their own ashram in detroit? [yes]
no, chicago ashram was not involved.
richard fletcher...no memory of him later though he and his brother (twin) were considered 'bongos' in denver.
crimminal conspiracy? in some sense yes in retrospect..though no charges were brought before they fled, were flown.
yes to the general story line above.'

'...WPC clearly top-down from Denver. Also, Raja ji angle: yes, denver wpc controlled wpc in states for few years until m slowly put it under his control...not wanting to move too fast to do so as raja ji was the wpc top guy and that was his power base and in the whole holy family thing m was trying not to alienate raja ji...still does what he can to not do so even though raja costs m a fortune over the years (premies a fortune really). often stuff would happen via wpc that m would only find out about later and usually not happy about it. lemon was raja ji's right hand...all clock and dagger stuff with lemon.'

'p.s. on raja ji:  i think raja ji gets off pretty easy around here. i gather he is in uk on m's business, touring to support m's message. he knows all this stuff about m, much more...how can he continue to support him...why does he? ask him about his part in the detroit, halley, fakiranand story...he stirred that pot good back then. how raja ji and m shared women...raja ji is in it for the free ride...at least that is what m always contended about raja ji. the whole idea of keeping your potential enemies close.'

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My own recollections: I was at the ashram on the day Donner arrived in Detroit. Most of us did not know about the assassination attempt, but we had heard that Fakiranand was in town. It was curious to me, however, that Fakiranand had not shown up at the ashram that day, which would have been standard procedure. Early that evening I was in the packed 'satsang' room for guru worship and holy discourse of truth; it was very hot and muggy inside. Suddenly, through the window I saw an American car from the ashram pull up with Fakiranand inside, another passenger, and Donner at the wheel. I decided to split the satsang room, get some fresh air, and see what was happening outside.

As soon as I stepped into the front foyer of the house, the head of the ashram, Richard Royal, approached me. He took me aside and said he had some urgent and important service for me. There was a telephone in the foyer. Royal said he wanted me to guard the telephone -- not to pick up the receiver, and by no means to let anyone near the phone, let alone try to use, or eavesdrop. Royal kept repeating that it was very Very important that Nobody disturb or listen in on the phone calls which were taking place upstairs.

I asked Royal about the calls. At first, he would only say that they concerned important business with DLM headquarters in Denver. During the next 20 minutes, I saw Mike Donner going back and forth between the car outside and upstairs in the ashram relaying communications. Then, to my surprise, Royal came quietly downstairs once to check and confirm that I was still guarding the phone from the other people and had not been listening. He told me to keep guarding the phone, as the most important business call of all was taking place.

Finally, Donner came back downstairs and went outside to the car and the waiting occupants. Royal returned downstairs, and I asked him who was on the phone. Was it Mishler? No, he whispered. He then indicated that the call was from the highest power of all in the cult -- with the Boss himself.

Then, Royal directed me to go outside and act as a guard near Fakiranand, to keep the premies [devotees aka students] away from the mahatma [instructor], so they wouldn't talk to him (which seemed a bit strange to me). When Fakiranand saw me, he was startled and exclaimed, 'You are Here?!' He was surprised to see me, since he had last seen me at an event with M. in Los Angeles. I was surprised, too, since Fakiranand was not wearing his usual saffron robes, but rather American civilian clothes and a wool cap [on a hot summer evening]. He was almost unrecognizable in this disguise. Someone opened the trunk and something was removed, and then replaced with luggage. After some more goings-on, Donner and Fakiranand got into the car with the other passenger, and Donner drove away fast. I never saw Fakiranand again.

Several weeks later, I learned about Fakiranand's murder attempt on reporter Patrick Halley in a media publication. I never did make the connection in my mind with the events of that evening until this year [2001], from details and articles posted on ex-premie.org .

As we prepared for the Millenium festival in Houston in October 1973, amidst rumors, cult officials tried to portray Fakiranand as a fanatic on a rogue operation. When Maharaji himself was susequently asked one question by a reporter about the incident, he deflected the question, without answering it. To the best of my knowledge, he has never been interrogated by the police or FBI regarding his possible involvement in the cult murder conspiracy to kill Halley, or his direct criminal involvement and federal racketeering in ordering the aiding and abetting of the fugitive cult operative thugs.

When I learned more about the entire incident on ex-premie.org from articles and the accounts of others this past year, my memory stirred, and I began to reflect on what I had observed many years ago. It filled me with both anger and deep remorse, that I [and other innocent people] had been unwittingly used like pawns in the process of expediting a criminal conspiracy involving cult fugitives' flight from justice -- as personally ordered by Prempal Singh Rawat.

(Based on these legitimate, extremely serious abiding concerns, I asked Mike Donner to share his recollections of the events, and I also requested some responses from Pat Halley, including the following letter (which was forwarded to me). A number of related articles and letters are now permanently posted at ex-premie.org for worldwide inspection and education, pertaining to the patently criminal nature and extent of some of the Maharaji cult's operations.)

In conclusion, I hereby submit the final letter of the series received from Patrick Halley himself this year. My own conscience is clean.


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Letter #3 from Patrick Halley: Trilogy Conclusion
[transcript]

William -

T'was kind of you to keep sending me stuff. First, you may tell Suchabanana that I don't have record of all the details he (they) want in regards attack by Fakiranand. (His real name is Jupteswar Misra) As far as I'm concerned the issue is over. Anyway 'Fakiranand' went back to India and mailed me a letter (in 1978 or so) and a copy to the Detroit Police.

I've long ago thrown away the letter, doubting its veracity. It may be interesting to note that while this freek has Premies bow to pictures of the Master, and does so himself publicly, before they assailed me, Fakiranand and his henchman denounced Maharaji as a fake and a scam. His letter from India said the same thing and claimed he was co-erced into attacking me by the corporate bigshots in DLM, at the threat of deportation and other unspecified pressures. I don't see why anyone should believe him now anymore than I foolishly believed him when he was setting me up in 1973.

There is no need to try to avenge this act, legally or otherwise. Fact is, public opinion was against me after I pied the fat punk. The Detroit Free Press attacked me in an editorial the next day, even calling me a racist and religious bigot, and claimed [that] Detroit, with its high murder rate needed peace, even if they were giving the key to the city to a person with a somewhat curious religion. Even some people I had known for years were against what I did, and my own father accused me of going for cheap publicity and of picking an easy target - calling me a coward in an offhand sort of way.

Fakiranand's act vindicated me, and turned public opinion my way. We have to remember this occurred a good 3 or 4 years before the term 'cult' entered the public lexicon and people were very confused and uncertain; I just happened to be a student of comparative religions. I went from being some kind of 'terrorist' in the public mind to vindication and just this year editors of the Detroit Free Press published a book - The Detroit Almanac - in honor of the city's 300th birthdayt. I am in it, in a section called the 'The X-Files.' Along with past championship hockey and football teams, former Mayors and Generals, inventors, slumlords and Indian chiefs - I will go down in history. Of course, I was misquoted in the original Detroit Free Press story, and the misquote will go into history with me, but what can you expect from a newspaper that attacked me for protesting the awarding of the 'key to the city' to a 16 year old in a Searsucker suit who claims he is [the] reincarnation of Jesus, Buddha, etc. But anyway, my point is that Fakiranand, and the knuckleheads that sent him hurt the DLM even as they hurt me, and when I got out of [the] hospital there were even more interviews with radio stations around the continent where I had opportunity to warn people about DLM and other such groups. It may have saved a few people some time and money, and anguish.

If anyone wants to get even with DLM they need not use me as either an icon or an excuse; start a pie avalanche, go after the local pooh-bahs, hire street kids to graffitti DLM offices: 'CULT SLAVES', or other insults. Trust me, if I had felt a necessity for revenge on my account I would have avenged myself long ago. I am healthy, play ice hockey 50 weeks out of the year - and as the say in hockey - you have to be able to take a hit as well as give one out, nothing personal. So to Suchabanana I say go after them for what was done to you, if you feel like it, I have no more legal recourse, nor emotional baggage, I look on that period more with humor than anything else.

But William, if you could respond to Francesca I would appreciate it. If she is who I remember, she was a nice friend. And especially too, she knows old friends that I've lost contact with. The first time I went to [the] West Coast was in 1970 in a '56 Pontiac with Mike Zeiger... Francesca knows his brother (as I do) and would love to hear from her about all this.

I hope you are doing well, William, and all the other ex-premies. I had a thought, it would be interesting, in the long run, to see if a link could be made with dropouts from other cults and persons exploited by werd religious groups - even far right Christian groups. In the December issue of Penthouse [2000] is a nude photo layout of Paula Jones, the lady who sued President Clinton for sexual harassment. The story accompanying this is awesome, showing how she was manipulated by televangelists and other freeks to hound Clinton. And think, the same supreme court that called off the voting in Florida also ruled, for the first time ever, that a sitting President could be sued while in office and intimate details of his sexual life tortured out of him in public. (and they thought '1984' was bad.)

My point is, that as you ex-premies reach a certain equilibrium you may decide to expand your outreach, my brothers and sisters, because as I actually heard Swami Satchidananda say in a lecture in Detroit (I've always studied various meditations): 'POLITICS AND RELIGION ARE INSEPARABLE.'

This goofy Maharaji Ji, the Beaver Cleaver of religion is only part of the world's spiritual problems. In an oddly poetic way, I guess I'm one of the witches they tried to burn but I leapt out of the flames, barely in time.

We all will have billions of years to get over this anyway.

Much Love and Hope
P.T.H.


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Sincerely,

suchabanana

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 22:35:10 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: Couldn't finish reading this
Message:
Such, I started gagging when I got to the part of Fakiranand smashing his skull with a concealed metal object while Patrick screamed into unconsciousness. Now it's making me cry. I'll try and read the rest later.

I hate Maharaji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:49:20 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: thanks, such [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 13:52:21 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: swami suchabanana
Subject: **BEST** -Everyone Read!!
Message:
Great summary and analysis of the Fakiranand situation, combined with your own first-hand view. Thanks. This should be added to EPO someplace.

Pat Halley sounds like a great guy. Interesting that Fikiranand was calling M a fraud at the time he was about to clobber Pat. Was that part of the way they got Pat to meet with them; by pretending they were critical of Maharaji?

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:41:21 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: banana@pies_R_us.com
To: All
Subject: Happy Barfday!
Message:
Heus, gemit...
[Hey, he's groaning...]

Estne laceraturus a feris?
[Is he going to be torn apart by wild animals?]

Da servis tricas.
[Give the leftovers to the slaves.]

pax et lenticulae,

suchus bananus

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:55:53 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Ubi Dubium Ibi Libertas
Message:
Where there is doubt, there is freedom
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 02:00:43 (EST)
From: Maharajiamus
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
Message:
I think some people in togas are plotting against me.
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 02:33:01 (EST)
From: Frankus Sinatrus
Email: None
To: Maharajiamus
Subject: Scoobius Doobius Doous
Message:
If you don't give me what I want, your horse's head will be in your bed.
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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 16:02:55 (EST)
From: Anthus Gobbus.
Email: None
To: Frankus Sinatrus
Subject: Fid Def Envelopus Blancus..
Message:
Put your cash in the plain white envelope.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 01:17:50 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Michael Dettmers:Thanks again+question..
Message:
Hey Michael-

Hope you are having a good time during this holiday season and life is going well for you.

I just wanted to thank you once again for your incredibly extensive, meticulously written and thoroughly illuminating posts from about a year ago.
I was looking at some of them from last Nov. and was struck by how many good questions came from so many people, and how many thorough and well written answers you put forth.

I think that the effect the Q+A posts had on many people who read the epo forum was substantial.
Many people have remarked on this to me, and many people have written on the forum that when they read your posts, especially with a name attached to them that they could recognize, it was a major turning point for them in their lives.
For some, it was a major tremor that rocked their maharaji world, and started a process that just went on and on.

It seems strange at times to me now, as I look back on my life of just a year ago, that I assumed or believed so many things about m that were simply not true.
Basically, I was led to believe in an incredible myth about the man, and tried to personally lead a life that I though he was leading.
When I realized how bizarre his personal life was, and how far from spiritual it was, while listening to him for years preach just the opposite....well,the bubble burst, and as they say, the rest is history.
Thus began the process...

This deconstructing process is fascinating, revealing and liberating all at the same time.
One of the main catalysts for it is simply finding out real information.
Information that was denied or hidden from so many people, but once out in the open,has helped to free so many of those people from limiting beliefs and practices involving m.
(Ultimately, I feel that it will benefit him as well, but I realize that may be VERY idealistic thinking on my part.)

It's hard to believe that so many of the ideas that premies have believed were just that:ideas, or beliefs....
So many of them are taken to be true, and so many of them hold people back in their lives without them knowing it.

Once the process of actually questioning so many of these long held cherished beliefs begins, it is, at least in my case, a process that takes on a life of its own, and won't stop until the truth is really known.
As John Mac recently said, m has it backwards: in many cases, the thing he calls the 'doubtmaker' is really your own self trying to figure out what's real and true in your life.
M has supressed that urge in so many people, and the results are quite obvious.

It is absolutely no coincidence that my life began to soar when I started the unravelling/questioning process a few years ago.
Absolutely no coincidence.
Actually, I was thriving at the time, but part of me was still stuck.
I had a vague notion of this, but it didn't become clear until I really listened to the inner voice that was telling me to understand and wake up (even though I felt that I had already understood and waken up with m).

This forum, through all it's raucousness,insight, debate,humor and day to day soap opera quality at times, has certainly stimulated a lot of people and opened up a lot of good questions in their lives.

I respect your posts and realize that you must have gone through a lot in deciding on whether or not to post on the forum.

It would seem to me that on the one hand, it would have been very easy for you to NOT post....much easier than posting.
On the other hand, you did decide to post, and I feel that it has made a world of difference in so many peoples lives.
There must have been some incredible soul searching for you in that process, especially just before you decided to post.

Here's my question.
If you're comfortable with answering it, great.
If not, that's fine as well.

What did you go through in deciding to post?
Can you describe some of the 'inner dialogues' you had within yourself in coming to the conclusions you did?
How did you feel after you posted?
What were some of the responses from people who read the forum?
Did you ever have any doubts or fears about posting?

I'm not trying to be nosy, but am just interested in what you went through personally in that whole process.
I also feel that it might be helpful for other people to know as well, in their own journey, as they read or decide to post here.

Once again, Thanks,
All the best,
Jim Sander

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 20:00:46 (EST)
From: Really?
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: Re: Michael Dettmers:Thanks again+question..
Message:
'It seems strange at times to me now, as I look back on my life of just a year ago, that I assumed or believed so many things about m that were simply not true. '

And now you assume and believe so many things about M, based on someone else's totally revised draft of events and perspective, that are even less true. That's real spine in action. Progress indeed, Jim.

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 23:13:01 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: Really?
Subject: Yes, really...
Message:
Yes, it really is strange when you hear things today, from m's own mouth, that are complete contradictions and lies.
Things like 'Some people used to call me a perfect master, but I never liked that', or 'the concepts about me were spread by the mahatmas' or 'I never said I was God'.....all things that he has said in the last year that I have seen on video, said by him.

All in direct contradiction to words he used in the 70's and 80's....

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 08:27:47 (EST)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jim S.
Subject: Re: Michael Dettmers:Thanks again+question..
Message:
Jim,

Thanks for your comments. I'll have more time this coming weekend to reflect on your question and will answer it then.

Michael

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Date: Tues, Dec 11, 2001 at 12:14:11 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks...nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 20:27:02 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: Pullaver@yahoo.ca
To: All
Subject: Raja-Ji, Claudia & Children
Message:
Is anyone aware of the status (x or not) of Raja-Ji's former wife Claudia and does anyone know anything about their kids, their take on m&k, etc.
Where is Raja-Ji based out of these days, and is he still some sort of roving 'ambassador' for m?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 19:36:24 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: gerry
Message:
I find it a bit tasetless for FAs to publish people names without asking first. I remember on FA on ex-premie 5 that did that and he got what he deserved.

I also find it quite alarming that no one had the courage to say something about. Everyone jumped up and down when CACA published names and andrresses, no one said anything about this, which is odd. Have exes turned into a marooding hord of brainless gaga gaga I hate Maharaji without even knowing why anymore, bloody discusting.

Being an FA doesn't mean having a power trip. You know who am talking about and what.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 21:10:30 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: what are you talking about????????
Message:
I find it a bit tasetless for FAs to publish people names without asking first. I remember on FA on ex-premie 5 that did that and he got what he deserved.

I also find it quite alarming that no one had the courage to say something about. Everyone jumped up and down when CACA published names and andrresses, no one said anything about this, which is odd. Have exes turned into a marooding hord of brainless gaga gaga I hate Maharaji without even knowing why anymore, bloody discusting.

Being an FA doesn't mean having a power trip. You know who am talking about and what.

I haven't published anyone's address here. And no, exes have not "turned into a marooding hord of brainless gaga gaga I hate Maharaji without even knowing why anymore." You lie about me and insult my friends with your thoughtless accusations and I take great offense.

You wanna see a power trip? This thread is locked and you are blocked. How's that?

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Date: Sun, Dec 09, 2001 at 19:31:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: There, but for the grace .........
Message:
NEW YORK, Dec. 9 /PRNewswire/ -- John Walker, the American citizen captured with the Taliban in Afghanistan, was a 'model student' at the
madrasa, a primitive Islamic fundamentalist school where he studied Islam in a remote corner of Pakistan, his teacher tells Newsweek. Walker, who grew up surrounded by upper middle class affluence in California, was determined to
fit in at the Islamic religious school, an austere one-story building without hot water in a tiny village outside the town of Bannu in the Northwest Frontier Province of Pakistan, Newsweek reports in the Dec. 17 issue (on
newsstands Monday, Dec. 10).

Speaking with the teacher, Mufti Mohammad Iltimas, Walker was critical of America as a land that exalted self above all else. Americans were so busy pursuing their personal goals, he said, that they had no time for their families or communities. In the Islamic world, by contrast, he felt cared for by others, 'In the U.S. I feel alone,' he said. 'Here I feel comfortable and
at home.' His mufti says Walker had no interest in girls or parties or world events. His only real interest was studying. He seemed determined to memorize every word of the Quran, all 6,666 sentences of the ancient holy book that dictates every aspect of a devout Muslim's life, behavior, and being, according to a Newsweek Exclusive reported by Special Correspondent Colin
Soloway in Afghanistan, San Francisco Bureau Chief Karen Breslau, Bangkok Bureau Chief Ron Moreau in Pakistan, and Assistant Managing Editor Evan Thomas.

It is not clear how Walker wound up in Afghanistan. A friend from a San Francisco mosque tells Newsweek that he received an e-mail from Walker a month before he left the madrasa outside Bannu for the 'cooler mountains' in May of
this year. 'He was intrigued by Afghanistan,' said the friend. 'He said he was interested in getting a bird's-eye view of how Sharia (Islamic law) was being applied.' In his search for purity, Walker gravitated to the most extreme expression of Islam, the Taliban. Though he is currently in U.S. custody, the government has not indicated what it will do with Walker. But
one source said that Attorney General John Ashcroft and other top Justice Department officials were 'disgusted' with Walker's actions and want to 'make an example of him.'

Walker discovered his early passion for Islam on-line, visiting various hip-hop Web sites at age 14. Later, as he got older he veered in a very different direction and began visiting Islamic Web sites, asking questions,
like, 'Is it all right to watch cartoons on TV or in the movies?' His family says the turning point may have come at age 16 when he read the 'Autobiography of Malcolm X,' which describes the conversion to Islam of a militant black
leader.
Some Internet postings examined by Newsweek, show that young Walker could be pretty militant himself. In a 1997 message to a hip-hop site, he demanded to know why a rapper named Nas 'is indeed a 'God'? If this is so,' Walker
indignantly asks, 'then why does he smoke blunts, drink Moet, fornicate, and make dukey music? That's a rather pathetic 'god,' if you ask me.' Writes Walker in another e-mail: 'I have never seen happiness myself.' Selling off
his hip-hop CD collection on a rap-music message board, he converted to Islam.
In 1998, Walker became obsessed with memorizing the Quran and the Sharia, at about the time his parents split up. He became convinced he needed to go to Yemen because Yemeni Arabic was the closest to the 'pure' language of the
Quran. His parents, though strapped for money because of their separation, agreed to pay for it. Walker's father Frank, told Newsweek that he wanted to support his son's 'passion' and 'commitment to learning.'
Walker was troubled to discover that Islam was not quite as 'pure' as he had hoped. He later complained to Mufti Iltimas that he was disappointed to find Islam divided between Sunni and Shiites and many other sects and
factions. He believed all Muslims should follow one code, one law, the absolute truth of every word of the Quran. Walker, who had been oblivious to politics in the U.S. began to absorb some of the politics of radical Islam.
In October 2000, when suicide bombers blew a hole in the side of the USS Cole in Yemen, Walker wrote to his father in an e-mail that bringing the U.S. destroyer into a Yemeni harbor was 'an act of war' against Islam.
In late 1999, Walker returned to California to visit his mother, but felt uncomfortable in America. He had fallen in with an Islamic missionary group, the Tablighi Jamaat, which according to intelligence sources is sometimes used as a recruiting ground by extremist groups. Walker was taken under the wing of a Pakistani missionary named Khizar Hiyat, who invited him to join him on a drive to Nevada as he was spreading the word. After a brief return to Yemen,
Walker traveled with Hiyat in Pakistan for a month before choosing the madrasa outside Bannu.
His only respite from studying at the madrasa, apart from the occasional foray to the cyber tea shop in Bannu to ship e-mails home, was books on Islam. He slept on a rope bed, on the floor of his teacher's study in a place with no
hot water, and no electricity after 10 p.m. and he peppered the mufti with questions on every aspect of the devout life: 'Should I recite verses in a soft voice, or a loud one? While I am worshipping, how should I hold my hands?' He did not seem to enjoy the company of others. Mufti Iltimas was constantly inviting Walker to join him out for lunches and dinners with local
people, but Walker would decline, saying that socializing was a 'waste of time.' Perhaps he was not as comfortable as he claimed to be. Even though the villagers sent him food and did his laundry for free, when the weather turned hot in April, he had trouble sleeping and began to suffer from rashes and the incessant dust. He said he wanted to go into the cooler mountains.
Then he vanished. He did not surface for seven months, and when he did he was a prisoner of the Northern Alliance along with other Taliban fighters.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 05:33:04 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: SCOTT T-THIS IS WHAT I MEAN
Message:
NEW YORK, Dec. 9 /PRNewswire/ -- John Walker, the American citizen captured with the Taliban in Afghanistan, was a 'model student' at the
madrasa, a primitive Islamic fundamentalist school where he studied Islam in a remote corner of Pakistan, his teacher tells Newsweek. Walker, who grew up surrounded by upper middle class affluence in California, was determined to
fit in at the Islamic religious school, an austere one-story building without hot water in a tiny village outside the town of Bannu in the Northwest Frontier Province of Pakistan, Newsweek reports in the Dec. 17 issue (on
newsstands Monday, Dec. 10).

Speaking with the teacher, Mufti Mohammad Iltimas, Walker was critical of America as a land that exalted self above all else. Americans were so busy pursuing their personal goals, he said, that they had no time for their families or communities. In the Islamic world, by contrast, he felt cared for by others, 'In the U.S. I feel alone,' he said. 'Here I feel comfortable and
at home.' His mufti says Walker had no interest in girls or parties or world events. His only real interest was studying. He seemed determined to memorize every word of the Quran, all 6,666 sentences of the ancient holy book that dictates every aspect of a devout Muslim's life, behavior, and being, according to a Newsweek Exclusive reported by Special Correspondent Colin
Soloway in Afghanistan, San Francisco Bureau Chief Karen Breslau, Bangkok Bureau Chief Ron Moreau in Pakistan, and Assistant Managing Editor Evan Thomas.

It is not clear how Walker wound up in Afghanistan. A friend from a San Francisco mosque tells Newsweek that he received an e-mail from Walker a month before he left the madrasa outside Bannu for the 'cooler mountains' in May of
this year. 'He was intrigued by Afghanistan,' said the friend. 'He said he was interested in getting a bird's-eye view of how Sharia (Islamic law) was being applied.' In his search for purity, Walker gravitated to the most extreme expression of Islam, the Taliban. Though he is currently in U.S. custody, the government has not indicated what it will do with Walker. But
one source said that Attorney General John Ashcroft and other top Justice Department officials were 'disgusted' with Walker's actions and want to 'make an example of him.'

Walker discovered his early passion for Islam on-line, visiting various hip-hop Web sites at age 14. Later, as he got older he veered in a very different direction and began visiting Islamic Web sites, asking questions,
like, 'Is it all right to watch cartoons on TV or in the movies?' His family says the turning point may have come at age 16 when he read the 'Autobiography of Malcolm X,' which describes the conversion to Islam of a militant black
leader.
Some Internet postings examined by Newsweek, show that young Walker could be pretty militant himself. In a 1997 message to a hip-hop site, he demanded to know why a rapper named Nas 'is indeed a 'God'? If this is so,' Walker
indignantly asks, 'then why does he smoke blunts, drink Moet, fornicate, and make dukey music? That's a rather pathetic 'god,' if you ask me.' Writes Walker in another e-mail: 'I have never seen happiness myself.' Selling off
his hip-hop CD collection on a rap-music message board, he converted to Islam.
In 1998, Walker became obsessed with memorizing the Quran and the Sharia, at about the time his parents split up. He became convinced he needed to go to Yemen because Yemeni Arabic was the closest to the 'pure' language of the
Quran. His parents, though strapped for money because of their separation, agreed to pay for it. Walker's father Frank, told Newsweek that he wanted to support his son's 'passion' and 'commitment to learning.'
Walker was troubled to discover that Islam was not quite as 'pure' as he had hoped. He later complained to Mufti Iltimas that he was disappointed to find Islam divided between Sunni and Shiites and many other sects and
factions. He believed all Muslims should follow one code, one law, the absolute truth of every word of the Quran. Walker, who had been oblivious to politics in the U.S. began to absorb some of the politics of radical Islam.
In October 2000, when suicide bombers blew a hole in the side of the USS Cole in Yemen, Walker wrote to his father in an e-mail that bringing the U.S. destroyer into a Yemeni harbor was 'an act of war' against Islam.
In late 1999, Walker returned to California to visit his mother, but felt uncomfortable in America. He had fallen in with an Islamic missionary group, the Tablighi Jamaat, which according to intelligence sources is sometimes used as a recruiting ground by extremist groups. Walker was taken under the wing of a Pakistani missionary named Khizar Hiyat, who invited him to join him on a drive to Nevada as he was spreading the word. After a brief return to Yemen,
Walker traveled with Hiyat in Pakistan for a month before choosing the madrasa outside Bannu.
His only respite from studying at the madrasa, apart from the occasional foray to the cyber tea shop in Bannu to ship e-mails home, was books on Islam. He slept on a rope bed, on the floor of his teacher's study in a place with no
hot water, and no electricity after 10 p.m. and he peppered the mufti with questions on every aspect of the devout life: 'Should I recite verses in a soft voice, or a loud one? While I am worshipping, how should I hold my hands?' He did not seem to enjoy the company of others. Mufti Iltimas was constantly inviting Walker to join him out for lunches and dinners with local
people, but Walker would decline, saying that socializing was a 'waste of time.' Perhaps he was not as comfortable as he claimed to be. Even though the villagers sent him food and did his laundry for free, when the weather turned hot in April, he had trouble sleeping and began to suffer from rashes and the incessant dust. He said he wanted to go into the cooler mountains.
Then he vanished. He did not surface for seven months, and when he did he was a prisoner of the Northern Alliance along with other Taliban fighters.


---

note ashcroft's promise 'to make an example of ' this young man.
an example of what? religious renunciation? obviously genuine and intense dedication?
so if you take an intense desire to study a religion because it seems to speak to you and resonates with you, you are to be made an example of?? you are to be what--flogged ? burned at the stake? crucified? shot by firing squad? dragged to astrip club and forced to spend the night having sex in 100 different positions with the most lascivious hooker they can find to lick you in, with?

what exactly does he mean to make an example of?

i know--you are going to say that this young californian went off to become a member of the Taliban, who became our enemy as of sept 11th, so this fellow qualifies as a traitor, a seditionist, giving aid and comfort to the enemy and indeed joining the enemy and fighting alongside them, and being among those taken prisoner when the americans declared war on the taliban and the northern alliance took control of where he was .

so it would seem that according to ashcroft, it is unamerican to place God above oneself. It is unamerican to go abroad and study a religion that places god above self and individuals.
so ashcroft, it would seem, means to make an example of this fellow to tell all americans they had better not go getting any ideas about studying islam, or surrendering their lives to allah, or submitting their wills to the will of the almighty. NO, rather tif they know what's good for them, they had better keep right on looking out for number one, and spending that cash, and satisfying all those artificial appetites that keep our home economy booming, because if anyone thinks they're gonna turn away from the american way, and go off joining any religious schools or countries where they instruct the individual to spurn sex, ego, selfishness, personal profit, or the American Way of Life, well, such folks are just going to have to expect to get what's comeing to them, just like Johnny Walker! Why, We just can't be having that, here in America!

I don't need a conspiracy theory. Scott. I just read the news, straight off the wire.

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:10:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Another over-the-top post, Janet
Message:
note ashcroft's promise 'to make an example of ' this young man.
an example of what? religious renunciation? obviously genuine and intense dedication?

No, silly, an example of what happens to people who go to war against their country. Walker's religious foolishness might have motivated him but it's his actions that count.

so if you take an intense desire to study a religion because it seems to speak to you and resonates with you, you are to be made an example of?? you are to be what--flogged ? burned at the stake? crucified? shot by firing squad? dragged to astrip club and forced to spend the night having sex in 100 different positions with the most lascivious hooker they can find to lick you in, with?

Why do you keep saying such stupid things? Like pretty well every post of yours is like this now. Ashcroft isn't talking about making an example of Walker as someone who gets lost in a religious haze. He's focussed on the guy's actions. Surely you can see that. So why pretend otherwise?

what exactly does he mean to make an example of?

i know--you are going to say that this young californian went off to become a member of the Taliban, who became our enemy as of sept 11th, so this fellow qualifies as a traitor, a seditionist, giving aid and comfort to the enemy and indeed joining the enemy and fighting alongside them, and being among those taken prisoner when the americans declared war on the taliban and the northern alliance took control of where he was .

so it would seem that according to ashcroft, it is unamerican to place God above oneself. It is unamerican to go abroad and study a religion that places god above self and individuals.

Are you becoming an idiot or are you pulling our legs? It's not 'unamerican to place God above oneself'. Nor is it unamerican to go abroad and study a religion that tricks people into doing that. It IS unamerican to go to war against the U.S. military. Just like it's unCanadian for a Canadian to go to war against the Canadian military.

so ashcroft, it would seem, means to make an example of this fellow to tell all americans they had better not go getting any ideas about studying islam, or surrendering their lives to allah, or submitting their wills to the will of the almighty. NO, rather tif they know what's good for them, they had better keep right on looking out for number one, and spending that cash, and satisfying all those artificial appetites that keep our home economy booming, because if anyone thinks they're gonna turn away from the american way, and go off joining any religious schools or countries where they instruct the individual to spurn sex, ego, selfishness, personal profit, or the American Way of Life, well, such folks are just going to have to expect to get what's comeing to them, just like Johnny Walker! Why, We just can't be having that, here in America!

I think, if you wanted to be fair about it and not just set up stupid straw men to knock down and do victory laps in your living room, I think you'd have to say that Ashcroft's message is that, IF you're going to go study islam, and IF you're going to try to surrender your self to Allah (or anyone else for that matter), you'll get in some serious shit if you take up arms against your country's military. I know that's not as much fun to work with, Janet, but it's one hell of a lot closer to reality, if that still means anything to you.

I don't need a conspiracy theory. Scott. I just read the news, straight off the wire.

Yes, well, ahem ....

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Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 21:52:53 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ...or as the mother of...
Message:
...one of Walker's former schoolmates in Marin said: ''My son's in that war. What if Walker had killed my son, somone he knew in school?''

PS Someone asked if his citizenship can be revoked. Yes, that is one of the alternatives to being tried and executed as a traitor. As I dislike the death penalty, I am hoping for that. He can spend the rest of his days in Afghanistan. What an idiot or, as they say here, ''only in Marin'' land of coaine, crystals and aromatherapy.




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