hamzen -:- gm as beatmaster dj -:- Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 01:18:33 (EST)

Michael Dettmers -:- My response to Jim Sander -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 22:25:08 (EST)

__ JS -:- Many thanks, Michael...nt -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 22:42:13 (EST)

jonathan -:- Elan Vital as a Non-Profit Entity? Not! -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 20:27:44 (EST)

Richard -:- How EV and M can diffuse EPO -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 13:45:15 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- LOLOL! Check out the Watch/Clocks... -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 15:14:06 (EST)

__ __ Stonor -:- ROFL! Check out the Mosque Clock! -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 16:11:22 (EST)

__ __ __ wish -:- Buddy Maharaji? -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:20:25 (EST)

__ __ __ __ hope -:- Buddy Christ link? -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:57:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: Buddy Maharaji? -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:31:56 (EST)

Jim -:- Some funny stuff's happening on LG -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 23:37:26 (EST)

__ bill -:- Re: Some funny stuff's happening on LG -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 23:17:58 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- I remember Yaron -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 03:22:37 (EST)

__ __ jonathan -:- Re: I remember Yaron -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:26:46 (EST)

__ __ DC ex premie -:- Yaron in Wash DC-late 70's -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:06:51 (EST)

__ Loaf the Goldfish -:- I agree -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 03:05:01 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- sincerity is trained -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 03:33:21 (EST)

Today's Question -:- Is Maharaji GUILTY of child abuse? -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 09:13:11 (EST)

__ re: Is Maharaji GUILTY of child abuse? -:- Thanks for responses -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 13:47:42 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Actually, there are right and wrong answers... -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 15:03:03 (EST)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Bless you, but sorry, Cynth -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 20:54:15 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- But there IS a great point in all this -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 15:10:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- but the main point is -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 20:07:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: But there IS a great point in all this -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 15:24:55 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: But there IS a great point in all this -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 15:38:21 (EST)

__ Jim -:- NO! Absolutely not (as per Nigel) [nt] -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 20:48:50 (EST)

__ such -:- here's what UK majority thinks: -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 20:05:55 (EST)

__ Nigel -:- Unhelpful IMO... -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:45:41 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Agree with Nigel, Absolutely... -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 09:26:05 (EST)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Call it Trust Abuse then -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 12:39:55 (EST)

__ __ Abuse comes -:- in many forms -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 06:18:31 (EST)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: in many forms -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 10:01:59 (EST)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- You seem to miss my point -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 07:21:44 (EST)

__ __ __ __ The point is -:- we wanted him to be DAD -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 08:03:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I disagree on your point... -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 11:04:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Thanks for spelling it out, Cynth -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 12:39:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Again you're right -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 10:06:50 (EST)

__ Kev -:- Re: Is Maharaji GUILTY of child abuse? -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:13:52 (EST)

__ __ I wonder if Jagdeo -:- ever abused the very young M -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:37:34 (EST)

__ __ __ PatD -:- Re: ever abused the very young M -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 21:08:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: ever abused the very young M -:- Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 01:53:18 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Secrets - exactly, Kev. [nt] -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:17:44 (EST)

__ Chuck S. -:- Heart of a child = Don't ask questions (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 14:24:05 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Heart of a child = Don't ask questions... -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 15:14:18 (EST)

__ Marshall -:- YES!! -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 13:25:12 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Marshall... -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 14:01:37 (EST)

__ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: Marshall... -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:27:10 (EST)

__ __ __ Marshall -:- Re: Marshall... -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 15:06:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Jagdeo messed with little boys, too -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 18:26:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Truth is the consciousness -:- of Bliss(barf!) [nt] -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 15:40:10 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks Marshall... -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 15:12:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- JSCA translation -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 16:03:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: JSCA translation -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 16:31:33 (EST)

Gregg -:- Quasi-Hindus -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 22:07:40 (EST)

__ jonathan -:- Re: Quasi-Hindus -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 03:03:20 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Re: Quasi-Hindus -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 04:01:29 (EST)

__ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: Quasi-Hindus -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:17:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- 'everyone needs a Master.' -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:43:27 (EST)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- Good post Pat [nt] -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 18:30:03 (EST)

Jim -:- Honestly now, isn't this sick? -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:07:17 (EST)

__ Larkin -:- As Kabir once put it... -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 05:21:29 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- On the butane glow of... -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 09:34:21 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Re: As Kabir once put it... -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 05:30:32 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- My eyes hush in madness??? -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 10:34:02 (EST)

__ __ PatC...wondering - is the -:- spin cycle used in brainwashing? ;) [nt] -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 14:06:52 (EST)

__ jonathan -:- Yes, but here's a poem I wrote... -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:23:48 (EST)

__ __ Marianne -:- BEST OF FORUM, BEST, BEST!!! -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 21:48:51 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) channeling an instructor -:- Jonathan, I don't think you're ready for Knowledge [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:59:20 (EST)

__ __ __ jonathan -:- That's so funny! I know I'm not ready... -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 21:08:23 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:26:27 (EST)

__ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:58:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) channeling an instructor -:- Now you're ready for K! Could you just sign... -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 21:13:13 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Her name is LALA? (Fits) -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:12:33 (EST)

__ __ Santa -:- It is I -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 18:28:55 (EST)

Jethro -:- Lost time -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 16:50:22 (EST)

__ Patrick W -:- Re: Lost time -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:14:42 (EST)

__ __ PatD -:- It isn't weird at all -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:35:01 (EST)

__ Voyeur -:- Re: Lost time -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:00:00 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Hey, Voyeur, nice to see your two cents here -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 21:07:02 (EST)

__ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: Hey, Voyeur, nice to see your two cents here -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 10:23:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- OK, Voyeur, keep the name but.... -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 14:09:14 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- The Wall -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:41:42 (EST)

__ __ __ TROLL ALERT -:- Threatened Again -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 10:13:42 (EST)

__ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: The Wall -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:45:55 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Vciki -:- Re: The Wall -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 10:09:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Protector of the weary and the weak -:- Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 01:43:26 (EST)

__ __ __ SC -:- No wonder you left Joe -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:24:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- True, I sucked at being a premie (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 22:47:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Notice how shallow and -:- vindictive Roupell sounds [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:53:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- AW, poor gerry didn't get high either? -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 23:53:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ salsa -:- then u got yours -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 13:42:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ What a low life ... -:- David... Roupell has become! [nt] -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 04:58:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Who are you? -:- The one line wonder?? -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 21:03:33 (EST)

In summary -:- if you're thinking of joining the M cult -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 10:38:47 (EST)

Jim -:- No wonder SC's freaking -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 23:50:05 (EST)

__ Patrick W -:- Easy come Easy Go.. -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:40:47 (EST)

__ __ SC -:- Hi Patrick -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 23:50:09 (EST)

__ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: Hi Patrick -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 20:37:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ SC -:- Like I said J -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 21:05:31 (EST)

__ __ __ PatD -:- You're a lost soul pal... -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 20:42:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ SC -:- I know -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 21:08:57 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- What a fine post, Patrick [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:52:19 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Ditto, Patrick (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:13:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Yes, excellent post Patrick. [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:25:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Ballad of the lost Trust Fund.... -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:14:47 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- It was a big investment for all of us -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:21:57 (EST)

__ __ Selene -:- Re: It was a big investment for all of us -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 11:53:55 (EST)

__ Terry O'Gorman's Clients -:- Re: No wonder SC's freaking -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 04:22:33 (EST)

__ __ McDuck -:- Re: No wonder SC's freaking -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:01:20 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Oh sht up already, Derek! -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 15:48:22 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- DEREK HARPER -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:11:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ The Southern Spotted Rock Quoll -:- NOT DEREK HARPER -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:06:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Which are you? -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:34:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cat -:- Re: Which are you? -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 03:33:55 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moll of Mole -:- Re: Which are you? -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 17:53:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cat -:- Offer for Moll -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 20:24:58 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moll of Mole -:- Re: Offer for Moll -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 04:30:57 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Offer for Moll -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 09:08:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moll of Mole -:- No ,States (nt) -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 13:58:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: NOT DEREK HARPER -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:32:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cat -:- Re: NOT DEREK HARPER -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 03:40:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Not Roger eDrek -:- yup, we are a pissy backwater -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 22:22:07 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Not Thelma -:- Give Pissy er Pussy a break -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 03:43:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Excreta taurus cerebum winket -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 06:08:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ man on street wearing trenchcoat -:- get your doctored pictures here -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 22:30:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: NOT DEREK HARPER -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 04:18:44 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cat -:- Insect! Not Baileys and Schnapps -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 07:28:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I learnt it on EPO (didn't I?) -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:19:13 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Well, no, not really -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:34:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK, I had a dream .... -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:55:12 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Your tape -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:38:20 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- hey, can I see the tape, too -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 22:33:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Tape -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:28:39 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Stop betting on horses, Harper... -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 16:26:41 (EST)

__ __ Rocky Bullwinkle - Well, Cat, you'll -:- need those lawyers. How's Boris? [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 13:13:05 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- Is this what you mean, Harper? -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:29:31 (EST)

__ Marshall -:- what a geek -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 02:47:09 (EST)

__ SC -:- He's right (sob) -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 01:56:09 (EST)

__ __ Marshall -:- What a dumbass -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 02:51:50 (EST)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Can you contribute a little more? -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 02:54:37 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Marshall -:- Re: Can you contribute a little more? -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 02:27:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- **EXCELLENT COMEBACK** -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 18:41:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Can you do better than that? -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 03:27:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ salsa -:- at the end u talk about 'him' -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 13:45:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Squids? Perfect! -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 03:13:55 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I'm a fan too -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 12:52:45 (EST)

Date: Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 01:18:33 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: All Subject: gm as beatmaster dj Message:

Has anybody heard this beatx track he did out amongst his flock recently? The thought of gm as a dj and mc is just hilarious, mind you he's got the ass to be a real jackin booty dancer, but no rhythm, ahh shucks. GM as lap dancer anyone?

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 22:25:08 (EST) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: All Subject: My response to Jim Sander Message:

Last week Jim Sander asked me the following questions: 'What did you go through in deciding to post? Can you describe some of the ‘inner dialogues’ you had within yourself in coming to the conclusions you did? How did you feel after you posted? What were some of the responses form people who read the forum? Did I ever have any doubts or fears about posting?' I did not easily come to the conclusion to post. In fact, I didn’t even know that EPO existed until I got a call out of the blue from Jim Heller a little less than two years ago. He politely (yes, he does know how to be polite) introduced himself and asked if I remembered him from the early days of DLM in Canada. I told him that I remembered his name and had a vague recollection of who he was, but that was it. He went on to ask if I had heard about EPO and if I was aware that it contained a scathing expose about me and my past involvement with Maharaji. I told him that I was not aware of EPO nor the expose so he informed me how to find the site, and said he would call me in a few days for my comments. Needless to say, I was quite shocked when I read what had been said about me, and I was especially offended by the lies and mis-information. Mostly, however, I had this sickening feeling in my stomach that my past connection with Maharaji was coming back to haunt me. I had hoped that I had put it behind me and had gotten on with my life (which I had). But here was a stark reminder that, in the age of the internet, my past could not so easily be swept under the carpet. When I next spoke with Jim, I focused on the lies and misrepresentations that had been written about me. Jim listened and acknowledged my concerns but re-directed the conversation towards Maharaji and my role in his organization. He wanted to know what I thought about Maharaji and, more specifically, if I would be willing to post about what I thought, experienced and witnessed while in his service. At that moment, I had no intention of posting or saying anything, and I told him so. Jim called me back a few weeks later to see if I had changed my mind. When I told him that I hadn’t, he said that I was making a mistake because so many people had been damaged by their involvement in M’s cult and that I was in a unique position to help undo some of the damage. It was after a few more of these conversations with Jim that I finally made my first posts on EPO. Anyone who read them will remember that I focused more on clarifying some of the lies and misrepresentations that had been made about me and, only in a circumspect manner, did I explain my reasons for leaving Maharaji, making a point not to criticize him. These posts did not go over well with most Forum readers and I was roundly criticized. Some good did come out of those initial posts, however. Jim put me in touch with other ex’s including Joe Whalen who, in the course of several conversations, encouraged me to speak out. Jim also asked if I was aware of the Jagdeo situation, which I was not, and asked if I would be willing to speak with Susan. I agreed, and Susan and I engaged in several e-mails and phone calls during the ensuing weeks. I was horrified to hear about Jagdeo’s behavior. I have a close personal friend who was sexually abused as a child by her father and I know the damage it caused and the courage, with the help of an experienced therapist, it took to undo the damage and reclaim her life. It was Susan’s story, and Élan Vital’s denials, that prompted me to write to Maharaji with an enclosed letter from Susan, informing him personally of the Jagdeo situation. His subsequent inaction and indifference to this matter triggered whatever unresolved anger and resentment I had suppressed in my efforts to put Maharaji behind me and get on with my life. I was outraged. This outrage was exacerbated by Élan Vital’s responses in the FAQ section of its website. I knew when I left that Maharaji had lost his moral compass. Now, as evidenced by Élan Vital’s FAQ’s, he wasn’t even acknowledging the genuine love and devotion that made him a wealthy man. Instead he was re-writing history in a way that mocked all of the people who had sincerely dedicated their lives to him. I was now determined to speak out, and I did. Since speaking out, I have received countless e-mails from ex-premies all over the world thanking me for doing so. For the most part, I have simply reported the facts as I personally witnessed and lived them, letting the facts speak for themselves. I have no regrets for having done so and I am gratified that, by speaking out, I have helped many people exit the cult. It has been a liberating experience and I thank all of the people whose efforts make EPO and this Forum possible.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 22:42:13 (EST) From: JS Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Many thanks, Michael...nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 20:27:44 (EST) From: jonathan Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: All Subject: Elan Vital as a Non-Profit Entity? Not! Message:

We had a thread a couple of days ago about developing a strategy of legal recourse against M and EV. After reading more on EPO, it appears that EV's classification as a non-profit needs scrutiny. To be non-profit, the organization would probably be a church. Only, EV hardly meets those requirements. Based on EV's own admission at the end of each satellite broadcast, knowledge is not a religion, way of life, etc. In my opinion, one way to financially shake down EV and M would be the IRS. Does anyone know how the IRS would get involved? The IRS took down Maharishi in the 1980's. Isn't it time to investigate the next false prophet's true profit statement?

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 13:45:15 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: All Subject: How EV and M can diffuse EPO Message:

In this holday season of good will, I want to show my love for fellow man by suggesting a way our former lord and his organization can rid themselves of EPO and F7 forever. The only way I survived six years of service relatively intact was to keep my sense of humor. Some of the people I worked with were extremely cynical and irreverant and it made our absurd life a lot of fun. When did you ever have a good laugh about M with a Church Lady? So what's my suggestion, you ask? Well, M and EV need to laugh at themselves. I came across this website which was created by Christians who feel their faith needs criticism, in the form of humor. Believe me, these folks are no Church Ladies. They are Christians but, at the same time, feel there's nothing wrong in making their own faith a target for their wit. In fact, they believe that their criticism will make their faith better. With a self paradoy sight like Ship Of Fools, M and EV will be rid of EPO forever. There are Larkinesque revised lyrics like 'Hey, Hey We're Not Monkies' and much more. At the very least, check out Gadgets For God whch are real products. More ideas for the Divine Mall. God bless us every one. Richard [ Ship of Fools ]

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 15:14:06 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Richard Subject: LOLOL! Check out the Watch/Clocks... Message:

Richard, that is hilarious. I loved the watch and clock collection which are priced reasonably, too! Mosque Clock Last Supper Wall Clock The Hallelujah Clock Holy Family Watch Time for the Word Repent! Wristwatch [ Watch and Clock Collection ]

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 16:11:22 (EST) From: Stonor Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: ROFL! Check out the Mosque Clock! Message:

REALLY LOL!!! Be sure to check out the 'Hard Sell' section on the Mosque Clock! And click on the movie, 'Sandals at Seven'. It's quite the wake up treatment, and that IS the alarm on it - I checked that out before the movie! I'm sure that m will want to expand his selection of watches and clocks after he sees this!! Too funny! Yes ... thanks, Richard! :) Thanks for bringing that section to my attention! Anna (and in case I don't get a chance again, Cynthia, Happy Holidays!) [ Mosque Clock ]

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:20:25 (EST) From: wish Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Buddy Maharaji? Message:

Buddy hahaha can someone put maha's face on it? Barry?

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:57:18 (EST) From: hope Email: None To: wish Subject: Buddy Christ link? Message:

Link to Buddy Christ 'wish' posted about. [ Buddy Christ ]

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:31:56 (EST) From: jonathan Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: wish Subject: Re: Buddy Maharaji? Message:

how 'bout a watch that has that cheesy picture of M wearing his 4 stripes in front of his jet? [ lower left, M at tail ] [ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 23:37:26 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Some funny stuff's happening on LG Message:

Now that I can read LG again, I'm remembering how much fun there is watching cult members interact with one another. The first thing that's kind of amusing is watching guys like Cat and SC chastise Carlos for being too soft on us exes. Kind of the flip side of me and Katie, really. For example, Rich W warns Carlos: It's true, there are dangerous sharks in these waters and thanks for the on duty lifeguards! I notice Carlos still wants to be everything to everyone. That may be a nice idealistic fantasy but it fails due to the fundamental lack of discrimination required to suspend reality long enough to see a shark as a goldfish. I guess we're the dangerous sharks or something. :) Likewise, Derek 'Catweasel' Harper chimes in: A shark? Too kind ..More like one of those featherless head Vultures that pierce the carcasses of dead beasts on the Serangetti. She makes Gollum sound like Mother Theresa. Carlos has been bagging me for not being polite to the F7 crew. Yeah right Carlos 'I'd like to thank sincerely my executioners, the stooges who set me up and the President'.You ever seen half a dozen white pointers finish of a whale calf?They show genuine kindness in comparison...... Executioners? Well, I said it was funny. Carlos, unperturbed, responds that we're not, in fact, their 'executioners' and that: They have only as much power over us as we give to them. You can refute their errors at least as effectively while doing 'right action' as you can by letting yourself give in to anger. Often more effectively. And you have little or no chance of changing anyones stance thru vitriol while gentleness may open a heart. When it doesn't, you lose nothing; whereas when vitriol fails it will often scorch you, throwing your serenity to the wind and making samahdi difficult for you to reach. And union with Sat Nam is much to be preferred to an adrenaline rush,IMO!!! to which a frustrated Cat replies: Whaaaat???Jesus Carlos , do you have any idea of what you have stumbled into? Sheesh,you are a babe in the woods. Or a fictional character. Either way beware .I think you are going to end up feeling like a 16 year old lovely the morning after the prom! Okay, that's one thing. The other, even funnier, is that this French premie, Danielle, is giving all the other premies on LG shit. For one thing, they're not being 'loving' enough to each other. For another, they're standing by while we tell all these 'lies' when they could and should be somehow stopping us: Hey ! Offshore, on a raft, in the middle of the ocean, I'm sending this message to see if there's a premie round somewhere. When I say 'premie', it's an old word which I used before, thinking of new human beings who can show concern for other fellow human beings. I've started looking around me and see none. Yet, I don't understand, because beyond the love I can feel in my heart for whom you know, when I wake up in the morning, there is also love for the rest of humanity. I wish the human beings to be happy, truly, in their hearts. The only thoughts I have for the human beings are thoughts for peace and serenity. I'm concerned by their sufferings and I dare believe that these thoughts come into my heart also because I can feel love in my heart, just love, a feeling, there, like the scent of a flower. Love attached to nothing. Just a presence, silent and sweet. I'd wish everybody could feel that. I know when people are happy and fullfilled, I've nothing to fear from them. Yet, when there is frustration, anything can happen. What I saw in the premies round me, is that they hide behind the 'so-called' unique love they feel, to deny any kind thought for anybody or anything else. they crye at programs, and when they come out, they're as drye as rocks. How come ? I don't think that this is the teaching of Maharaji. At least, it doesn't apply to me. When you feel something real in your heart, then you want to manifest the feeling. And that feeling can be manifested by kindness to other human beings. You don't feed babies with meat when they come out of the mother's womb. the same way, there are people who just can't they in the message right away. They need to feel something coming out of us to them. Beyond words, there is a general attitude. And this attitude is lacking, most of the time. Don't take this message personnally. I just chose you at random to express myself. I'm disapointed and very surprised to see that all my messages have been erased from this site and I ask myself the question whether this is really a 'premie' forum or not. When I see how they can make up stories on 'ex-premie' as well in France and the insanities they write on Maharaji and now on Marolyne. When I see that nobody stands up to confront them in their lies, I am wondering. Really. Isn't there anybody, anywhere, that would like to do something, peacefully, of course, to suee them. Because on ex-premie, what is written, can be brought to court. How can we expect hand over this message, if on the other hand we let Maharaji and his family be diffamated publicly ? haven't we got any courage ? The funny thing is that you can just imagine the some of the other premies there thinking, but not saying of course, 'Excuse me, Danielle, but exactly WHAT lies?' They know there aren't any. But fat chance they'll ever tell her that. In fact, Derek 'Catweasel' Harper, can only tell her to cool it a bit and offer yet another empty, oblique threat against us, his signature, it seems: To many generalisations. Get new friends . This is a big world there are no boundaries. This isn't about some secret thing. It's about being concious second by second. You cant help but love the whole damn thing when you feel that. Smile. It is about you ,and the choice is yours. Where did you get them idea's girl. You been swimming with the shark's? And what you wish, hey there might be a fairy Legal Eagle Godfather/Godmother planning just what you suggest. Who knows? It's a big ,wonderful world. But Danielle reminds me of the kind of broadsides we'd all get and give each other every once in a while in the cult. Some desparate voice in the wilderness stands up at satsang and accuses us all of being too rote in our devotions, too smug. Accuse us of forgetting the 'real' truth we were supposedly dedicated to. Wild-eyed prophets in the wilderness, these premies were, and the thing was, you never really knew when Maharaji might fully endorse their complaints. He could take exalt this kind of craziness by making the premie an instructor, for instance. Surely, the craziest cult fanatic had nothing on Anne Johnston, Brian MacDermott or, lest we ever forget, the Mother of All Mad Devotees, Fakiranand himself. On the other hand, Maharaji might side with the comfort zoners and dismiss this kind of radical wake-up call as nothing but 'mind, the worst kind of dismissal. The best example of such an in-cult Prophet I ever knew was the Israeli premie, Yaron, who, along with his wife and a couple of followers he picked up along the way, came to Ottawa when I was there around some time in '76 or '77. He actually showed up with some very timid, mousy Indian 'bai' but she was completely overshadowed by Yaron's own fiery zeal. Yaron had seen action in the Israeli army and thus thought he was a tough Sabra and were nothing but wusses. His every moment was dedicated to completely sacrificing the mind on the holy altar of 'Ohlee Nem'. As far as he was concerned, every minor thought you drew was an insult to Maharaji who, as we all really knew, was just begging us to return to our true natures behind our minds. More than once, Yaron stood up in the back of our cozy little satsang hall after the last speaker and ridiculed us all. We were merely faking it, going through the numbers. We'd made a truce with the devil, mind, and had forgotten our true path. Yaron, good brother that he was, was trying to rekindle our desire to truly go for it. Without that focus, he literally yelled, we were mere 'shit'. Naturally, we all didn't know quite what to think or say. On the one hand, he made sense. Given the premises we'd all adopted supposedly, i.e. that the mind was evil, Knowledge the antidote, etc., we really had stopped short of something or other. On the other hand, the guty was clearly nuts and made everyone major nervous. Is THAT what we had to look forward to? Yaron's world, the one he'd already put together with his wife and his cult-with-a-cult following was a full-on premie version of the Taliban. The similarites are much, much more than trivial. Anyway, Yaron supposedly fell off a roof a couple of months later and was wheelchair-bound ever since then. Plus, there was this story going around that Maharaji had given him shit in a darshan line, saying something to the effect of 'LEAVE MY CREATURES ALONE!' At least that was the story. We all derived from both stories that Maharaji did not, in fact, want us to get quite that fanatical. Mind you, you never really knew. Like I say, Brian MacDermott and the Poconos and all that was right around the corner. Anyway, Danielle reminds me a bit of Yaron. A voice in the wilderness. But what cna the premies do with her? Other than erase her posts, that is? :) I'm just so glad I'm out of that pin ball machine.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 23:17:58 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Some funny stuff's happening on LG Message:

Knew the orthodox israeli rabbi's son yaron in Miami. He gave some noise to security or some premie in front of rawat in a darshan line and rawat said angrily, 'they are my creatures too!' yaron stepped into an elevator and it went straight down and crashed, crippleing him. he had a meeting with rawat to offer him the money from the insurance but rawat said -to give him the money through a business- or at least that is what yaron told me, and he had his own premie kibbutz in miami in of all places, Liberty City, the violent prone riot zone in Miami. He seemed to fail in his SProut growing business, last I heard he was a big AMWAY enthusiast. Wonder how his zealotry is holding up.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 03:22:37 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jim Subject: I remember Yaron Message:

At one of the Florida festivals I think it was, there was Yaron holding court, like a premie Osama Bin Laden pontificating on the proper Yaron method of recieving darshan. ' I do not just keeees Maaahaarrrajeee's feet, I leeeeeek them' A radical dude to be sure, sorry to hear about his accident

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:26:46 (EST) From: jonathan Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: I remember Yaron Message:

Some Israelis scornfully complain that Americans like to move to Israel and pervade the counter-culture scene. Yaron is good point in negating that premise, or at least returning the favor!

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:06:51 (EST) From: DC ex premie Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Yaron in Wash DC-late 70's Message:

Yaron had a buddy named Fred, a German premie. They both had wives or live in girlfriends, and a whole entourage of premies, mostly young women, around them in the DC community. One day the group made a formal 'declaration of war on organized religion' to the DC media. They denounced all organized religion, I believe through some newspapers, and some radio and/or TV station in the area. The claimed they spoke for maharaji. John Miller was dispatched to the DC community to try and patch things up; probably because he was originally from DC, and looked and talked pretty normal. Fred, Yaron's buddy, had written 2 books about the world, m, and the coming destruction. In them, he had all kinds of premie/fundamentalist christian concepts about who m was, who mata ji was, the antichrist. the coming 'final battle' etc. One book was called 'Blight or Bloom', not sure what the other one was called. Basically, he saw the end of the world as near, with m being the saviour, without whom the world would crash and burn. It was his job to tell the religions that they were on the wrong path, and to get with the program and receive 'you know what'(K) from 'you know who'(M). Miller comes to town and tells them that it is m's agya to cease and desist. They believe that he is truly representing m, so they decide to retract their statements. Miller tells them to get rid of anything they were going to print or publish about m. Fred, being quite grandiose, apocalyptic, and flamboyant, decides that he cannot just throw the books he had printed into the dumpster. No, they must be burned....maybe that was more biblical, maybe he thought that what he was saying was so heavy that it shouldn't fall into the wrong hands, or I don't know what... So, the next day Fred brings all of his books to the local incineration facility, and pays to have them incinerated. The guy who runs the incinerator, as he feeds the books into the furnace, picks one up, and starts reading it. He attends satsang because of it, and eventually receives knowledge. Naturally, this story became a cult classic on the premie grapevine, and once again 'maharaji's grace' was credited with such a blessing....even his enemies can't help but spread his knowledge.....one day everyone will have knowledge, just wait and see....(you know the story).... Strange, but true!

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 03:05:01 (EST) From: Loaf the Goldfish Email: Loafji@yahoo.com To: Jim Subject: I agree Message:

with a lot of what carlos and Danielle say... if the atmosphere around the people around maharaji was anything like the way I had hoped it would be... then I wouldnt have become an ex against my own will.. but the fact remains that the PAM premie 'feel' and social dynamic, is particularly repulsive, selfish, goal-fixated, judgemental, obsessional, people-using, insecure, and 'career' orientated. Not at all what attracted me to premies i the early 80s... I never liked M originally, it was the premies, they were beautiful, clear eyed, shiny and seemed a happy bunch... now contentment has been 'professionalised' ad made corporate and sincerity is trained. The one major gulf between Maharaji and the PWKs was exposed in that none of them give a flying fuck about propogation...he seems to have thought that propogating knowledge was important to us.. but since the socially repulsive atmosphere became increasingly 'controlled' I doubt if many people woulf invite their best friend these days .. because we KNOW that they would see all the shit swept under the carpet... and those posters on LG can smell it too... cos what they are concerned about is a deeper issue thatwhat it seems. carlos, if you are reading this.. I too agree that hard liners of either camps cause people to 'jump'. man eating goldfish.... now there is a more inspiring picture. And Daniel... yes I agree... but love without focus is no use to his organisation... its as dangerous as unfocussed gratitude... and gratitude = $$ All the best Loaf

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 03:33:21 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Loaf the Goldfish Subject: sincerity is trained Message:

You said a mouthful, Loaf. Nice little piece of satsang there. I was just thinking why I enjoy most of your messages. Your sincerity is definitely NOT trained. I sometimes feel as if I am eavesdropping on your inmost thoughts. I agreed with every word you wrote. Where have all the flowers gone...or should that be flower-children? You're so damn sweet, kid.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 09:13:11 (EST) From: Today's Question Email: None To: All Subject: Is Maharaji GUILTY of child abuse? Message:

not in a legal sense but in essence. We were all advised to approach him with the innocense of a child. This was the only way we could 'GET OFF' on the K. He took advantage of this in many ways- Oh, yes he did! Think ashrams, Deca, cash to kiss his foot and on and on. We did not question any of these foolish things because we wanted the prize he dangled in front of us, i.e. realize the K NOW. He would one time get us to sing to him, 'please, please teach me devotion' or 'focus your mind on the form of Maharaj Ji, always remember his every word is sacred'. Then if he sensed things had gotten a little to heavy(read that donations being down), he would back off and just tell us to have fun and enjoy this life. For years we were allowed to sing to him, ' you are my mother and you are my father, you are brother and you are my friend.....you are my all, my lord to me.' Is this child abuse? We came to him with the simplicity of a child!

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 13:47:42 (EST) From: re: Is Maharaji GUILTY of child abuse? Email: None To: Today's Question Subject: Thanks for responses Message:

very fascinating and again, there are no right or wrong answers. It is so interesting how we react to the word ABUSE. I wonder how many of us had been abused by an adult figure who had power over us, prior to offering ourselves to M for further abuse. Many of us, including myself, had been abused by an adult authority figure and we just couldn't believe it was true. Hence, the need to seek an alternative adult authority figure. Burned yet again, it's understandable we're angry and rebel at the very word ABUSE. Obviously, while our bodies had attained adult age, emotionally we weren't adults or we would never have re-submitted ourselves to such a ludicrous idea as The Guru Maharaj Ji. We were primed and the Vulture knew it.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 15:03:03 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: re: Is Maharaji GUILTY of child abuse? Subject: Actually, there are right and wrong answers... Message:

I have to say I find it uncomfortable responding to someone who hasn't at least picked a fake name for me to identify with. Be that as it may...but don't go away thinking you are correct because you have the issue confused. Please read Nigel's post, my post, and Richard's post. There is no grey area here. Child abuse/assault/neglect is done to those people who are a particular age--children and/or teens. The point is if you live in an adult body, regardless of how old you feel; you may have been reduced to a child, as in the cult, you still are not a victim of child abuse/neglect, etc. You are still an adult. This important distinction was made by Nigel, who has expert knowledge on these matters.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 20:54:15 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Cynthia Subject: Bless you, but sorry, Cynth Message:

When you said 'This important distinction was made by Nigel, who has expert knowledge on these matters.... Really, I bever pretended that and would never claim that expertise. I don't have any more insight into this stuff than the average common sense we all possess (or most ex-cult members at least). I may have studied psychology these last ten years, but, really, that doesn't count for anything - especially when child development is not your own research area. In my experience the average parent knows intuitively a damn sight more than the average childless psychologist (and probably as much as the ones with kids..) Nige, the pub table expert in everything he feels like talking about...

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 15:10:47 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: But there IS a great point in all this Message:

Cynthia, You know that I, too, can't stand this kind of jargon distortion. However, there really is a great point in all this that shouldn't be lost just on account of that concern. Maharaji really did get us to imitate children and we all played along, to some extent anyway. It was a hell of a lot easier when we were 19, I guess. Harder at 39 or even 49, I'm sure. Yes, the entire charade was abusive. It just wasn't 'child abuse', that's all.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 20:07:18 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jim Subject: but the main point is Message:

The main point is that the reason why we were willing to subjugate ourselves before Maharaji and turn ourselves into child-like devotees was because we thought he was God. No premie considered Maharaji another one of us, a normal human. He was God, there's no and, ifs or buts about it. For that reason, I think it's incorrect to apply the normal rules of abuse to this situation. We were not all abused as children, some of us had very good parents. We were not ''turned into children'' but what did happen was that we naturally repositioned ourselves in front of him who we believed was God, the Father. Anybody in any society from any background who believed that they were standing in front of God would do the same.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 15:24:55 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: But there IS a great point in all this Message:

Jim, I agree. But to say we were victims of ''child abuse'' is incorrect. We were used, abused, conned, and reduced to feeling like children (of m). And those of us in the ashram I believe were especially reduced to experiencing more powerlessness because (at least I) believed that I had given up my life, belongings, and responsibilities in order to focus completely upon surrendering to m. So I think we agree about this. I don't think there's a grey area when it comes to age. Although...age 19 is pretty young. I was 21 when I was introduced into the cult and there's no way I can say I was a victim of child abuse in the cult. That belongs to the children who were in the cult and were were assaulted sexually, neglected by parents, etc. Nigel's explanation is correct. And yes, it all was an abuse of power and trust, as Richard said below. A huge abuse of power and trust. That's what a con is. Hey, how's your hand? Cynth

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 15:38:21 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: But there IS a great point in all this Message:

Obviously it was not child abuse (precisely either sexual molestation or psychological and physical neglect or mistreatment.) I did not take the post seriously at all and thought it should have asked; ''Were our inner children abused by M?'' ;)

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 20:48:50 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Today's Question Subject: NO! Absolutely not (as per Nigel) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 20:05:55 (EST) From: such Email: such@hrh_britannia.uk To: Today's Question Subject: here's what UK majority thinks: Message:

http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=451496&in_review_text_id=401721 [ http://www.thisislondon.com/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=451496&in_review_text_id=401721 ]

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:45:41 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Today's Question Subject: Unhelpful IMO... Message:

When there are real child abuse cases within the cult needing urgent attention, this kind of thread title only muddies the waters. I am not saying the Master/devotee relationship isn't criminally manipulative - of course it is ('not legally but in essence', if you like) - but I don't much care for the way the word 'abuse' is so casually mishandled as a catch-all for everything from mild personal slight to brutal rape. As such, it is as too convenient a phrase for 'victims' of the former as it is demeaning to victims of the latter. 'Maharaji guilty of child abuse' is a serious case of language abuse, IMO.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 09:26:05 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Agree with Nigel, Absolutely... Message:

There's a huge difference between real child abuse, in the world and in the world of the cult, and a ''metaphoric'' child abuse of adults in the way that some here have described it, including myself vis a vis we were taught to be obedient, be as a child, etc. Nigel is correct in making this distinction--thank you Nigel. I also do not believe that it is proper to speculate about Marshall. That's not ours to talk about, IMO. Let's have some boundaries, folks. Anyone who lives a number of years in the cult and then leaves may feel wronged, wounded, hurt to varying degrees too. But child abuse? No. I was 22 when I received K and that is old enough to not be considered a kid--even if I felt as if I were a treated as a child at times, and even if I felt like a child. There are many forms of child abuse, too. I have to endorse Nigel's opinion of the title of this thread by saying it is language abuse. Abuse is a word that is pretty worn out and the spectrum of it as it relates to children is wide, with varying degrees. The actual cases of child sexual assault that happened within the Maharajism cult are/must be of the utmost priority here.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 12:39:55 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Call it Trust Abuse then Message:

As Cynthia points out, 'metaphoric child abuse' is not child abuse. If the, as yet, unidentified poster meant it as a clever play on words that's one thing but, as Nigel says, it diminishes the truly serious crime of child abuse. A better way to view the abuse would be in terms of a violation of trust. In the states, a therapist, doctor or religious cleric is bound by law to not abuse the trust patients or parishioners place in him/her. I believe it is just such a trust that M has violated. When confiding in a therapist or priest, one expects that they will not be misused, sexually engaged or abused in any other way. I believe that M has encouraged his followers to suspend logic and trust him as their master while not really caring about their wellbeing and in fact using their trust to extract wealth and narcissistic power. This is definitely not child abuse but, in fact, trust abuse.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 06:18:31 (EST) From: Abuse comes Email: None To: Nigel Subject: in many forms Message:

as I'm certain the victims of Jagdeo understand. Yes, we were all abused to the degree we trusted. The damage to many continues to this day We were told to approach the master, Maharaj Ji, as children. The more we were able to short-circuit and do this, the more profound the result. For many, this was real serious stuff and ABUSE of a child's trust is IMO the issue here not to diminish the Jagdeo victims. Give them some credit.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 10:01:59 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Abuse comes Subject: Re: in many forms Message:

You're quite right in what you say. Absolutely. I think people here were pointing out that child abuse is a different thing to what you so aptly illustrated, which in my mind is the abuse of a trusting adult or teenager. Let's face it, many of us were mere teenagers when we got hooked into Maharaji's net.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 07:21:44 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Abuse comes Subject: You seem to miss my point Message:

Abuse of trust is one thing, but not remotely in the same league as 'child abuse' as the term is commonly understood. And because there are genuine child abuse cases in the cult it does nobody any favours to confuse the issues by using that expression - especially if - as you appear to mean - that adults being persuaded to act like children can also be victims of child abuse. To do so robs the term of its meaning.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 08:03:03 (EST) From: The point is Email: None To: Nigel Subject: we wanted him to be DAD Message:

'adults being persuaded to act like children' kind of says it all. Being persuaded that foot-kissing was/is good could very easily be seen as a form of psycho-sexual 'child' abuse. Once we, the innocent, performed this ritual on DAD, we demonstrated our subserviance and the master/slave game was a go. Following agya was nothing after that ultimate humiliation.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 11:04:22 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: The point is Subject: I disagree on your point... Message:

You said: 'adults being persuaded to act like children' kind of says it all. Being persuaded that foot-kissing was/is good could very easily be seen as a form of psycho-sexual 'child' abuse. Once we, the innocent, performed this ritual on DAD, we demonstrated our subserviance and the master/slave game was a go. Following agya was nothing after that ultimate humiliation. That's still not child abuse. Adults are adults and children are children. Period. There is a huge distinction here that you are not seeing. I agree that we were taught to be as children. But when one is living in an adult body, one is an adult. Because there was real child abuse committed by cult leaders (Jagdeo) against children, it does muddy the waters here by trying to lump everything into one label, child abuse. If you felt like you were treated as a child, and even if you dissociated and felt like a child in an adult's body, you are still an adult. It cannot be construed to be child abuse. The title of this thread bothered me, mostly because I am a survivor of child abuse (that word again), but I wanted to respond to Marshall, because I am interested in how the children of premies have done through the years their parents were in the cult. However, your description of foot-kissing as a ''psycho-sexual child abuse'' is incorrect. Again, how you felt is not the same as how old you were when you felt ''as a child.'' If you felt helpless it was because you were programmed to feel that way within the confines of the cult. That does not constitute child abuse. As Sir Dave said, it would be helpful if you could stick with one name. It simply makes it easier to communicate.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 12:39:06 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Cynthia Subject: Thanks for spelling it out, Cynth Message:

Agreed with every word, Cynth. Even away from cult matters, it is a pet hate of mine the way that the word 'abuse' has been adapted and generalised almost to the point of becoming meaningless. I am pretty sure that about forty years ago you would never hear any of the folling expressions: physical abuse sexual abuse child abuse psychological abuse verbal abuse... In their place, respectively, we had the far more explicit and already adequate terminology of: assault indecent assault (and/or rape) child cruelty (and/or neglect) bullying insulting behaviour / offensive language etc.. Nige of the A.A.A.A. (Association for the Abolition of Abuse Abuse..)

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 10:06:50 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: The point is Subject: Again you're right Message:

and the only disagreement you'll get here is if you label the abuse ''Child abuse''. Maybe we should have a different term for what you're talking about. By the way, it would help here if you gave yourself a name because it's difficult to follow which posts are yours if you give your name as the beginning of a different sentence each time.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:13:52 (EST) From: Kev Email: None To: Today's Question Subject: Re: Is Maharaji GUILTY of child abuse? Message:

I know I have said this before in the past but it is worth repeating that m uses one of the biggest stock and trade methods know to child abusers i.e. he asked us to keep the techniques of k a secret. In other words the abuser will always tell the child “don’t tell any one about this, this will be our little secret.”

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:37:34 (EST) From: I wonder if Jagdeo Email: None To: Kev Subject: ever abused the very young M Message:

probably not but this could go a long way in explaining M's behavior if he did. He(Jagdeo) probably didn't though if he thought old man Rawat was for real. Yes, SECRETS, SECRETS...worth a thread in itself

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 21:08:26 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: I wonder if Jagdeo Subject: Re: ever abused the very young M Message:

That thought occurred to me too. I'd say that jagdeo could well be one of those who delight in the company of children, nothing sinister in that,& his hold on rawat's affections came from being a favourite uncle figure. When the guy was let loose amongst people he despised,then the delight developed a darker side which he gave in to. This is speculation of course.

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Date: Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 01:53:18 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: PatD Subject: Re: ever abused the very young M Message:

I think this is a most interesting point and very likely Pat... delighting in the company of kids is delightful... lusting after them (and doing it) seems to imvolve a whole lot of other baggage, brought into entirely the WRONG arena. I have always delighted in kids.. but I remember realising how dangerous is that power that adults have, to give ourselves permission. People who get drunk on that power, who go further into their permission find a parallel their with the young Maharaji, who socially and 'spiritually' is able to BE what the rest of us WORSHIP. Let me explain my thoughts... I think there is a HUGE difference between adoring the Light.. melting and loving Holy Name etc and feeling these things as HIM.. or even saying 'thankyou maharaji'... and feeling those feelings as YOURSELF, as your inheritance and saying 'thankyou Daddy' I think that hypnotic and subjective realm which enabled us to worship M.. has also let him worship himself. He has Permission to BE and DO what we dare not, and in that inner permission, there is a sick connection with jagdeo playing out his lonely power games over his captive 'lovers'... Jagdeo is being a little Maharaji. Stupid, cruel idiot. These are just my thoughts... based on nothing at all. big hug to Abi and Susan xxxx Loaf

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:17:44 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Kev Subject: Secrets - exactly, Kev. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 14:24:05 (EST) From: Chuck S. Email: None To: Today's Question Subject: Heart of a child = Don't ask questions (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 15:14:18 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: Re: Heart of a child = Don't ask questions... Message:

Hi Chuck, Don't ask questions is a good one. The other one that comes to mind is ''you are a child, and I control your thoughts and your actions.'' ''Obey me.'' There's a lot of those.... Be well

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 13:25:12 (EST) From: Marshall Email: None To: Today's Question Subject: YES!! Message:

As someone who was dragged against their will to numerous programs, events, satsangs etc. Made to listen to mind numbingly boring nonsense while all the so called grown ups try to out bliss each other with idiotic retardo grins on their faces. I would like to consider that as child abuse, literal abuse. I know I am not the only one out there who went through the cult at that level. I have heard from Abi, who has suffered the worst abuse through this cult that I've heard of, and I really hate all the people that didn't help or even believe her. Anyway, there is her... and me... but where are all the other premie kids? they don't have computers? they're shy? They don't care about any of this enough to bother? What is it?

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 14:01:37 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Marshall... Message:

Hi Marshall, I became a premie at age 22 in 1976. I watched so many kids who were brought to programs by premie parents. This included nightly satsang, regional programs, miscellaneous events, as well as festivals. I am most interested in hearing your story...if you've already told it here, I may have missed it, so please let me know where/when you posted about it. In my life as a premie, I never considered the effects of the cult on the babies, children, toddlers, and teens. Now I am concerned/curious about it, not because of the sexual abuse, such as with Abi, but what life damage was sustained by kids with parents entrenched in a personality cult. Your posting about it might just bring other folks here who lived that life as kids. (I can't believe that other kids of premies don't have computers!) Maybe if you write it out it will help with the losses. Again, no pressure, but you bring up a good point. Also, if it's not too personal to place in a post here, hold old were you when your parents were involved, and how long were they involved (are they still involved)? If it's too personal, email me if you wish, at sylviecyn@yahoo.com Best, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:27:10 (EST) From: Ulf Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Marshall... Message:

This is really a sad thread never really been thinking about it before Here there is only one premie kid , who got K When he was born , he was the most alone child i ever have seen . Mother and father , both was and is premies But when he was a child , he was so heartbreaking alone even when i was a fanatic premie , i was feeling so much sadness whenever, i saw him (he was laying around , everywhere in the local satsang hall ,, crying for someone, to care for him ), shame on me and M for letting him , live his first years so alone. He is now a grown up man , and a very devoted member of rawats cult All the other premie kids , are not into K and M they have their own life, never asked for K I hope they are doing fine ?

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 15:06:39 (EST) From: Marshall Email: snorlaxe@msn.com To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Marshall... Message:

Hi Cynthia, Yes it is interesting to think about all those kids and babies that were dragged along to the festivals(what a stupid word)/events(not much better). I have briefly told my story here a few years back, but here are the basics. Both my parents joined the cult in early 70's. Somehow I was 'given' knowledge at the age of 7 in Los Angeles by, you guessed it, Jagdeo the rapist. Luckily, since I am a boy, I imagine, I managed to avoid getting one of Jagdeo's special, intimate, knowledge sessions, that he likes to give to helpless little girls. How my father managed to talk Jagdeo into letting me in is a good question, I guess it was grace. Anyway I was quite the novelty, a little kid with The kNOWLEDGE! Wwooo hoooo lucky me. The premies thought I must be really happening, maybe a big shot in my last life or something! My parents divorced and both remarried in the cult, yay, and they're all four still in it. Personally I have had a difficult life, battling hard drugs and living day to day, instead of preparig my future, but I don't blame all of those things on maharajis cult since the majority of my friends and peers who have never even heard of maharaji have had similar problems. Well that's it for now. Jai Sat Chit Anand(what's the literal translation? something...love.?) Marshall

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 18:26:42 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Jagdeo messed with little boys, too Message:

Sad but true. He messed with a room full of kids at the same time. Hundreds of children have undoubtedly been hurt by jagdeo. Think of how many years he had access to so many children. I'm very interested in what you have to say. You are also welcome to email me, if you prefer. There's some stuff I'd rather not say on the forum. deborah

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 15:40:10 (EST) From: Truth is the consciousness Email: None To: Marshall Subject: of Bliss(barf!) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 15:12:08 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Thanks Marshall... Message:

Actually, I don't remember the literal translation of JSCA, Someone else here does I'm sure. You take care of yourself, and thank you for being so honest. Seven years old! And Jagdeo.... You sound to me like you have your head on straight. Your posts here are very much appreciated. I like your style... Talk to you soon, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 16:03:18 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: JSCA translation Message:

Jai just means ''greetings.'' Sat means truth, purity or clarity. Chit means both consciousness and conscience. Anand mean happiness. Basically it means: ''If you have a clear conscience you will be happy.'' The guru mumbo-jumbo about ''truth is the consciousness of bliss'' is typical Rawat rubbish.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 16:31:33 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: JSCA translation Message:

Hi Pat, Interesting. If you have a clear conscience you will be happy. That's much better than the other. I have a clear conscience. As for rawat, well....LOLOL!

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 22:07:40 (EST) From: Gregg Email: None To: All Subject: Quasi-Hindus Message:

Patrick W wrote a very telling and eloquent message below, uder the heading of Easy Come Easy Go. Here is an excerpt: 'My experience has been that the 'Hindu-like' experiment conducted by Maharaji and his predeccessors, whereby through being subjected to isolation and humiliation one was supposed to turn the more to, and be embraced and fullfilled by the Guru's grace - was a complete failure. In fact it proved to me all the more that human values, social values, love for one's fellow man, using ones mind, enjoying the pleasures of life, and doing one's own thing and being responsibly ambitious are actually far more rewarding and noble aspirations than merely meditating and 'serving ' . It could be that meditating in a cave - or praying in a convent - yields positive benefits to humanity. That would be a hard argument to make, though. It takes a lot of faith to believe that isolated meditation/prayer is the most important thing in life. I'm a big believer in meditation, by the way. You might even talk me into believing that meditating people are good for humanity. But is meditation better for us than things such as Patrick W mentions such as love for our fellow humans and responsible ambition? I'm sorry, but to answer yes is to abdicate your claim on reason and compassion. By the way, I think the absence of reason and compassion could be a significant part of a definition of a cult. Look at Bin Laden's cult as an example of this. Anyway, I think that this quasi-Hindu separation we made between the world and spiritual reality was one of our biggest mistakes. Whe I say 'our,' by the way, I am not agreeing with modern premie revisionsists by saying that we addleheaded acidheads made this mistake on our own: we were taking our instructions from the Satguru; we had no minds of our own. So we thought that we were in this world, but not of it. That's an essential part of many spiritual philosophies, and I'm not sure that modern PWK's, even though they go to the cinema and have families and so on, do not subscribe to this crucial dichotomy. The dichotomy is crucial - and fatal to an authentic sense of humanity - because love and reason, which along with our capacity for creating beauty must be our most precious qualities as human animals, are denied when guru-love is pused to the front of the queue. We ARE in this world. In fact we are our world. Not ultimately, but as a starting point. I believe in pursuing the perception of a transcendent reality. But one must first acknowledge who we are as social animals - animals with hearts of love. We are not guru-loving automatons...unless we make a choice to relinquish our true nature.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 03:03:20 (EST) From: jonathan Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: Gregg Subject: Re: Quasi-Hindus Message:

Thanks for the very interesting view. If I understand correctly (it's late) you say that being in that meditative state hinders premies' grounding in reality. My girlfriend has had knowledge for five years. She is from Nepal. She is currently learning how to drive. In Nepal, she did not drive. I feel sorry for her because she has a really difficult time relating to other cars, trucks, people, etc. that she encounters while driving. To be fair, American culture is very new to her. But both her sisters live and drive in the US, without problems. My basic concern is whether or not her practicing knowledge is impeding her ability to relate to such circumstances as driving. Driving is a skill where we communicate with each other by using definite actions and obeying definite rules. It's very right-brain oriented. Of course many U.S. premies drive. My point is that for her, learning how to drive five years after accepting knowledge has proven quite challenging. I'm not saying that practicing knowledge has ruined her life. Rather, it's making reality-based activities like driving more challenging for her. Her heart is wide open, but her brain cannot seem to filter everything to make quick, decisive actions. It's scary watching her drive. The corollary to meditation is what people could be doing with that one hour, if they weren't practicing. Couldn't I get the same satisfaction M talks about by splitting wood for an elderly couple's wood stove? How about tutoring a child? or volunteering in a psych ward? M's message scares me because so much of it is about him and my inner self. I agree that it's up to each one of us to discover ourselves, and examine what we can and should accomplish with our lives. But M's presentation puts himself in the position of guide or sherpa. By creating a division between me and my inner self (since, using his logic, he is the one who introduced me to me), M can take full advantage of that position. And he does so by playing the role of a guru, when in fact he really is a man who likes to fly jets, drink alcohol, and eat good food. Oh this is a man who encourages millions of followers to 'go inside' and enjoy the 'gift of knowledge.' So millions of people waste an hour each day thinking of nothing, doing nothing, other than paying homage to a guy who likes fast planes. It just seems irresponsible and egotistical for a person commanding six million hours every day to not even ask his followers to do one item of kindness to their fellow human beings. I mean, where's the humanity in asking people to shut themselves away from reality?

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 04:01:29 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: jonathan Subject: Re: Quasi-Hindus Message:

That ''spiritual'' split between inner and outer that Patrick W and Gregg (thanks so much for both your terrific posts) talked about is probably quite real for lots of premies. Most of those that I know have it. The Hindu solution to the problems that are caused by that split is to have a living master. The Hindu theory is that god in a bod will keep you grounded in reality. That may work when the guru has a few hundred students in a small village in Nepal or India but can't work with what Rev Rawat has tried to do. Not only has he over-reached but is he an incompetent and irresponsible teacher and is also not a decent chap as they say in England. He's also a bit nuts I think and has to booze a bit and is a terrible example to anyone trying to remain sane and ''carry out the garbage while tripping through intergalactic ecstasy'' as Richard Alpert/Ram Dass once said. Jonathan, you seem a bit too young to have ever had old-fashioned LSD, the kind where your mind disappears into an exquisitely delicious liquid light and a vibration/sound like the singing and dancing of trillions of jewel-like atoms and you are filled with ecstasy that is so palpable you can taste it like nectar. You feel like Adam awakening in the Garden of Eden and the whole universe is breathing softly and sensuously. Well whatever....I think you know what I mean...whatever your definition of taking a trip into inner space is. That's what premies are doing when they ''practice.'' That's why I still do it.:) It's easier on the liver than drugs. It is uncharted territory and best done by yourself without some guru interfering with your mind. Ashram (shelter) is what guru traditionally offers, a safe place to trip out. Rawat figured that was a drain on his money and got rid of them and ended up with a lot of casualties on his hands. Instead he encouraged, by example, his premies to lead as debauched, reckless and irresponsisble life as he does. And all that remains of his "'shelter"' is the cult of personality worship and his twisted philosophy which is a trap for weak minded people. It makes for dysfunctional premies.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:17:35 (EST) From: jonathan Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: PatC Subject: Re: Quasi-Hindus Message:

Thanks PatC, your post was incredibly interesting. Now I understand my girlfriend's dedication to practicing every day. I've asked her many times why she needs a 'Master.' I ask, 'if other instructors teach the same meditation methods, then why can't they be your Master?' She responds 'everyone needs a Master.' The questions and answers go on, but still I don't get it. If I can acquire the same techniques through a book or a class, and without a boozin', elitist Master, why isn't that good? I think you're right on the mark, PatC. You've discovered something you enjoy, but aren't chained down by the egomaniac (Rawat) who taught you. Jonathan

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 19:43:27 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: jonathan Subject: 'everyone needs a Master.' Message:

hi Jonathan. I used to think that as well. I believed that doing it on your own would develop arrogance and a huge ego which would prevent me from being simple and child-like. Well, of course I had read too much Hinduism (and other religions which say similar crap.) But I still think one of the biggest reasons premies cling to Rawat is because they are afraid of exploring themselves alone in case they go mad. What they don't realize is that Rawat is driving them nuts. Also they think of K as god and are quite terrified of that. I don't. I think of it as mental health, relaxation and pleasure.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 18:30:03 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: PatC Subject: Good post Pat [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:07:17 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Honestly now, isn't this sick? Message:

Here are the latest four ELK 'Expressions'. Each reveals some very disturbing disfunctionalism. Or am I wrong? Premies will dismiss my saying so by claiming that I'm taking these words too literally. But am I? These premies could have said any words they wanted. Instead, they said these. I've put the more alarming comments in bold. :) What do you think? ************************************************** Gathered up inside When as a child in a state of utter hopelessness I know now what I could hear was the voice of my heart ringing in my ears. Now today he gathers me up in the darkness as I seek in desperation, and that same voice of the heart rings in my ears.The total feeling of being loved from inside. Edward Inglefield Crickhowell, UK --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Miami in celebration I had the opportunity to go to several events and each one of these events was a unique experience in my heart. In Miami I realized that I was considering each event as my last moment. In the end when Maharaji was singing full of joy, I felt that this moment could never end. The relation between a student and a master continues alive strong and visible by the grace of each breath. The joy and contentment did not stop, singing the music of the heart. I did not listen to the audience or its reaction. I was paralysed in a each moment, listening to each tune synchronised with its harmony joining its beauty and grace. Ivete Belfort Mattos Sao Paolo, Brazil --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- My eyes hush in madness The wax coated faces of my false desires melt down in peripheral illusions with the pyre of vacant redemption flecks of buried love rush to vaporize the black dust of denial I cling to the plea for you to spin cycle into view and when you do My eyes hush in madness Ronn Ames Silver Spring, USA _________________________________________________ This gift My master gave me this gift and I am so eternally grateful because this gift puts in touch with myself -the real me within. And now I celebrate my life each moment. I do not need to wait for any occasion or festival to celebrate. I enjoy being within .and when I lose that I feel miserable. This gift is incredibly precious to me and It gives me so much joy which cannot be described. It is my master's love that brings me this gift of joy in my life .And many other gifts like this every moment. To me he is my Santa not only in December but each moment of my life . Santilal Lala East Hampton, NY, USA

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 05:21:29 (EST) From: Larkin Email: None To: Jim Subject: As Kabir once put it... Message:

When the ping-pong bat of knowing Crushes my ball of indecision In a backhand manoevre of the heart My table collapses in a Christmas morn Of relief and escape from the mindful doubt of doubtful mind On the butane glow of gratitude my pan evaporates finding my number has been called In the lottery of life the puppy dog of my being barks waggy-tailed To greet the postman at the door

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 09:34:21 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Larkin Subject: On the butane glow of... Message:

That is just too funny....you made my morning, Larkin! The lottery of life... Hey, you should write a book b)

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 05:30:32 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Larkin Subject: Re: As Kabir once put it... Message:

Just as long as you don't shoot that puppy. ;)

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 10:34:02 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: My eyes hush in madness??? Message:

My eyes hush in madness The wax coated faces of my false desires melt down in peripheral illusions with the pyre of vacant redemption flecks of buried love rush to vaporize the black dust of denial I cling to the plea for you to spin cycle into view and when you do My eyes hush in madness OH MY GAWD!!!! Oh My Gawd...this is so pathetic. Spin cycle into view? Very sad...but funny, too. Like a whirling dervish spin into my view dear Mayaharaji, and make my eyes be quiet?? Okay, so the guy's in a cult...but this is sick, sick, sick. Plus he should know Mayaharaji probably never used a washing machine in his life. Spin cycle into view, my gawd. Poor Ron sounds all rung out.... My gawd!

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 14:06:52 (EST) From: PatC...wondering - is the Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: spin cycle used in brainwashing? ;) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:23:48 (EST) From: jonathan Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: Jim Subject: Yes, but here's a poem I wrote... Message:

Ohh, that's so drippy. I couldn't wait for M's singing to end. That headache lasted for two days. For all I care, he may be Lord of the Universe, but ain't no Indian Classical Musician. Leave the ragas to someone more talented, M! I've got a little poem of my own. ELK would probably reject it, but it wouldn't hurt to try and submit it. You're my Pilot, Maharaji You are inside me everyday in every possible way Only when you get to that one spot, You know the one, Take you 40 million dollar Challenger IV jet, the one you bought at a discount from King Hussein of Jordan... Anyway, take your big powerful jet and ram into my bad bad doubtmaker and fill up my bad doubtmaker tunnel with the good vibrations of your wonderful, pulsating 40-million dollar jet. You sure know how to propagate, Master! Spread that knowledge!

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 21:48:51 (EST) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: jonathan Subject: BEST OF FORUM, BEST, BEST!!! Message:

Oh god, that's right up there with the Collected Works of Larkin. Are you sure you haven't been eavesdropping on Captain Rawat and Monica? Still laughing, Marianne

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:59:20 (EST) From: Pat:C) channeling an instructor Email: None To: jonathan Subject: Jonathan, I don't think you're ready for Knowledge [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 21:08:23 (EST) From: jonathan Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: Pat:C) channeling an instructor Subject: That's so funny! I know I'm not ready... Message:

but my hat is off to those who went through with it and came back to reality.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:26:27 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: jonathan Subject: Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!! Message:

Jonathan, This is not appropriate material for this forum! At least not until someone like Pat Conlon interprets it for us. Perhaps you should submit it to RE? -- sorry, bad joke.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:58:27 (EST) From: jonathan Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: Jim Subject: Re: Oh my God!!!!!!!!!!! Message:

My apologies to anyone who took offense at my attempt at poetry. M just leaves me non-plussed. Since I don't hold any reverence for him, it's easy for me to joke. Realizing there are those who take M's teaching seriously, I must retract the vulgar poem and write another one in its place. You are Beautiful When you sit down and talk, you are beautiful. When you stand up and wave goodbye, you are beautiful. When you sing a little off-key, you are beautiful. When you fly your Challenger IV jet, you are beautiful. When you listen contentedly as others describe your beauty, you are beautiful. When you ask for donors to give you new things, you are beautiful. When you ask for complete supplication to your every need, your beauty is everlasting.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 21:13:13 (EST) From: Pat:C) channeling an instructor Email: None To: jonathan Subject: Now you're ready for K! Could you just sign... Message:

...this bank order please sending us automatic payments. Thanks.;)

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:12:33 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Her name is LALA? (Fits) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 18:28:55 (EST) From: Santa Email: None To: Joe Subject: It is I Message:

To me he is my Santa not only in December but each moment of my life

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 16:50:22 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: All Subject: Lost time Message:

Another interesting thread from http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/exsatsangisupportgroup Here is the first post Time Lost-- Yes, especially in the beginning. Because when you start to try to mould yourself into a 'satsangi' and live the Sant Mat way of life, you are taking a living process and freezing it, preventing it from growing in a natural organic way. So when you recover youself again -- you are like one of those poor souls in 'Awakenings' who responds to the medicine and suddenly 'wakes up' after being frozen 15, 20 or maybe 30 years. Instead of being someone who is 25 and who has their whole life 'in front of them', you are maybe this 40-year old, or a 50-year old. Jeesus Christ! You have had your fikkin' life stolen from you by some guy who (maybe you stupidly believed in) But who deliberately lied and misled you and participated actively in your having lost all those years. In my case, it gets better, but it is a slow process. The irony is that since it takes years for it to get better, this means that you are REALLY getting older as you are starting to come to terms with it. I thing the most universal factor that explains how people get sucked into cults is that there is some kind of absence of love in their lives. Maybe their parents had lots of problems themselves, maybe the particualar child was unusually 'needy' and did not get those needs met, but in any case, the cult victim is missing having a gift of love operating in their life. Then the cult figure looks bright and there is the big lie that he is God. What is not perceived is that this Guru is not operating via love in the real sense. It is a fake love that is in all the stories of the so-called 'love of a disciple for his Master'. Fake because this jsut alienates the disciple more, since she can only wonder what that must be like and want to have it herself or himself. If you really love the people around you, you treat them is such a way as to enhance their being, self confidence and make them stonger. The leaders of cults do the opposite of this. They weaken people and change them into dependent souls, lost in the world. Now that we are out we have a lot of work to do, I think. But there is really no limitation now. prome

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:14:42 (EST) From: Patrick W Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: Lost time Message:

I thing the most universal factor that explains how people get sucked into cults is that there is some kind of absence of love in their lives. Maybe their parents had lots of problems themselves, maybe the particualar child was unusually 'needy' and did not get those needs met, but in any case, the cult victim is missing having a gift of love operating in their life. Then the cult figure looks bright and there is the big lie that he is God. What is not perceived is that this Guru is not operating via love in the real sense. It is a fake love that is in all the stories of the so-called 'love of a disciple for his Master'. Fake because this jsut alienates the disciple more, since she can only wonder what that must be like and want to have it herself or himself. If you really love the people around you, you treat them is such a way as to enhance their being, self confidence and make them stonger. The leaders of cults do the opposite of this. They weaken people and change them into dependent souls, lost in the world. So true -so terribly true -all of it. It's so clear reading this. Oh woe is me!! In my case I was not driven to Maharaji for lack of love. I had plenty. I suffered a worse fate. I believed that God's love would be greater and when I learned to associate Maharaji with God, thanks to his Satsang, I let him persuade me to renounce other loves so as to have only eyes and time for him. What an idiot!! And also what a mean trick - getting people to cut off from others so as you can be their only lover. Personally I don't believe that Maharaji did love us either - I think he just trotted out this high sounding spiel. In reality I think Maharaji's very much got himself as his main concern. He may show some concern for those around him occasionally but there's no way he had any concern for us poor distant ashram premies whose names he didn't even know. I asked Mike Dettmers if M ever showed concern for his ashram premies and, if I remember correctly, he told me that Maharaji never showed any concern whatsoever and was usually totally preoccupied with his own world and well-being. And how true that people who real love you empower you in every way but Maharaji clearly undermined our self-esteem at every turn. All in the name of getting rid of the ego and mind. It just goes to show how you can manipulate people if you can persuade them that you can see their weaknesses even if they can't. You need their help. Maharaji painted our minds as demons and we grew to rely on him to 'save us' from this mysterious evil force that alone we apparently could not overcome. Why do we still need to hash this out? I guess we need to redeem some of that 'Lost Time' so as to feel validated or something. It's weird.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:35:01 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: It isn't weird at all Message:

Why do we still need to hash this out? I guess we need to redeem some of that 'Lost Time' so as to feel validated or something. It's weird. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. We are that woman. Whatever it is in humans that seeks to rise above the mundane,to better oneself & ones fellow man, to get out of the rut,feel the vibe,take part in a grand adventure,be special,full of energy, has been prostituted by this man for gain. OK, it's way more complicated,but that's the bottom line IMO. I'll feel validated when the guy is ridiculed in public as a fraud & finds himself in deep shit money wise with the Revenue Man. That may never happen,but here's hoping.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:00:00 (EST) From: Voyeur Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: Lost time Message:

I certainly found that.....acting out the role as a late teenager in your early '30s is interesting, but having done it you find that you have rejoined the human race. One of the benefits I found was that I didn't have so many problems relating to the rest of the world i.e. you could have a drink without pretending that you shouldn't be doing that etc.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 21:07:02 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Voyeur Subject: Hey, Voyeur, nice to see your two cents here Message:

I meant to tell you by email that I wish you'd change your handle to Voyager or something. Voyeur sounds so...well you know.:) Anyway, hope you're fit and happy and I don't care what name you use. You're a great penpal and I'm very glad to have gotten to know you over the past couple of months.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 10:23:00 (EST) From: Voyeur Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Hey, Voyeur, nice to see your two cents here Message:

Same here and....'Voyeur' remains!

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 14:09:14 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Voyeur Subject: OK, Voyeur, keep the name but.... Message:

...don't expect me to change mine to ''exhibitionist.'' :)

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:41:42 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Voyeur Subject: The Wall Message:

Good points. One thing I noticed was that after I rejected Maharaji and was no longer a premie, this invisible 'wall' that existed between me and people who didn't have knowledge was gone. When it comes to non-premies there is this feeling of elitism that premies have -- that they have something that others don't, and it makes them feel privileged and superior, something Maharaji constantly reinforces when he babbles on about how 'precious' the gift is. I think that one of the reasons leaving the cult is difficult is because you no longer have the illusion you are special anymore. It was such a relief to get rid of that illusion. But the dichotomy is that in relation to Maharaji you are dust, but in relation to the rest of the world a premie thinks he or she is hot shit.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 10:13:42 (EST) From: TROLL ALERT Email: None To: Joe Subject: Threatened Again Message:

Please do not engage. This is an important thread with very valid points that pwk's need to see and mull over. Do not let them run it off the page.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:45:55 (EST) From: jonathan Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: Joe Subject: Re: The Wall Message:

I think that synopsis about elitism is right on target. Bear in mind that I'm not a premie, but an aspirant who took two aspirin and saw through the baloney, thanks to some kind people here. That said, my girlfriend is a premie, and, against my better judgement, we watched a video last night (VCR is working). I mean M really does babble. But he actually made a point once in a long while. One of few points was that, paraphrasing 'this gift is not for everyone. Not for the weak. Not for losers. Knowledge is for the winners.' That point struck me as really exclusionary. As much as girlfriend denies it, nollij is really for upwardly mobile adults with money to burn. How else could one afford the events, broadcasts, media, and fundraisers for a new yacht? If followers don't fit the right economic bracket, they had better start looking for a new Master. A very wise friend once told me everyone has a hole inside them, some holes are bigger than others. We try to fill up that hole with stuff. It might be religion, people, or materials. My feeling is that we can alter what we put inside us when the right time comes. But in M's case, the message doesn't change when premies' needs change. After closing the ashrams, he's re-packaged his wares to sell to a more affluent, new-age audience. To me its as simple as that. In one fell swoop, look how many people were excluded from his very exclusive organization.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 10:09:24 (EST) From: Vciki Email: None To: jonathan Subject: Re: The Wall Message:

Well isn't that special! Knowledge isn't for the weak. Not for losers. It's now for the winners.....Hmmm, what was that line in that song called Arti we all used to sing, and some apparently still do, 'for the weary and the weak' ? This is just one of the ways an elitist attitude is implanted and reinforced ie if you take this knowledge, you are one of the winners, you aren't a loser anymore. Of course, there are the unspoken levels of being in the Elan Vital Pyramid Scheme depending on the level of donations. But the really, truly insulting aspect of Maharaji's obnoxious comment is this, by what right does he have to imply that those premies who were/are simple minimage workers were/are losers? He made/sustains his millions of dollars off of losers.

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Date: Mon, Dec 17, 2001 at 01:43:26 (EST) From: Francesca Email: None To: Vciki Subject: Protector of the weary and the weak Message:

'Jai Guru Dev Maharaji Your glory fills the world protector of the weary and the weak! You bring the death of attachment! You bring the mind true detachment! Save us from the ocean deep! Jai Dev, Jai Satguru Dev!' Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Or were they mighty at all? A good rap eh! A tiny little kid saying, 'I HAVE COME WITH MORE POWER THAN EVER BEFORE!!' Yeah, right. Uh huh. Maybe we were mighty stupid. Or naiive.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:24:04 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Joe Subject: No wonder you left Joe Message:

Because by your own admission you were one of those premies who was full of shit. I suspect many so called 'premies' were also full of shit before leaving and probably still are, this despite having left the 'evil cult' that failed to serve your spurious ambitions. Your 'invisible wall' is still there, only you're peeking out at a different view now. As I've said many times, I and most of the pwk's I know, have heaps of non and ex-premie friends and have not suffered the wall of elitism you felt the need to hide behind. One day you scorned women are going to have to face the fact that some of us, many of us, had a COMPLETELY different attitude towards life with M and K than you did. And, much to your chagrin, we still do! It reminds me of the few disgruntled hippies sitting around our flat in South Kensington moaning about the quality of the Red Lebanese we just smoked - while the rest of us sat around with huge grins on our faces. Go figure. And when you've found the courage to really look at that one... ...then you'll truly be free. The depth of that difference is now becoming strikingly apparent.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 22:47:24 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: SC Subject: True, I sucked at being a premie (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:53:42 (EST) From: Notice how shallow and Email: None To: SC Subject: vindictive Roupell sounds [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 23:53:21 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Notice how shallow and Subject: AW, poor gerry didn't get high either? Message:

Too bad shmuck, The loving creative law of infinte karma dictates the rules... which are.... YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE SUNSHINE!

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 13:42:40 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: SC Subject: then u got yours Message:

apparently your karma dictates that in this life you were destined to be full of shit and to be a cult memeber in denial. Good karma, eh? triple lol())

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 04:58:54 (EST) From: What a low life ... Email: None To: SC Subject: David... Roupell has become! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 21:03:33 (EST) From: Who are you? Email: None To: What a low life ... Subject: The one line wonder?? Message:

.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 10:38:47 (EST) From: In summary Email: None To: All Subject: if you're thinking of joining the M cult Message:

Ask the person with K assigned to help prepare you- 1-Why have most(85-90%) westerners who've received the K of Maha left and no longer Stay in Touch(remember this phrase) ? 2-Why have the vast majority of children of the long time members not followed the glowing example of their parents and received K. Look in the eyes of the one giving you the answer to these 2 questions.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 23:50:05 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: No wonder SC's freaking Message:

Now that I can read LG again, I think I can see why SC is so hell bent on defending this ridiculous cult and it's preposterous leader. Tell me if you agree. When asked about the Hamster's (I'm gonna go back to that name for the holiday season, I think) $7 million yacht, SC brags that he personally gave Maharaji $100k from 'his inheritance' for that purchase. Assuming he's not lying, and we've heard that Roupell is indeed a spoiled, monied prat, wouldn't this be more than enough reason for him to not be able to bear the thought that he's been conned? SC, if you're lying, well, you're a liar (again!). But if you're not lying, do yourself a favour and bite the bullet and get yourself a lawyer. You can get that money back, SC. And then you don't have to do this anymore. Poor guy, huh?

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:40:47 (EST) From: Patrick W Email: patrick@patrickwilson.com To: SC Subject: Easy come Easy Go.. Message:

Hello SC, I just had a christmas call from a good friend 'ex-premie' muso Dave Punshon who told me my name was mentioned here. I just received a letter from my dear friend Mark Dowding in England (son of Lord Dowding the master air ace who planned the Battle of Britain - Patrick Wilson are you here? Please email me cos I'd like you to get in touch with Mark, you have a heap in common.) Regarding Mark Dowding - He stayed with me quite a few years ago here in Brighton, along with our mutual friend Jim Gallagher. There was a program in Brighton and I had a few old buddies to stay and he turned up too. Mark seemed like a nice guy but unfortunately I don't think we really got to talk about his father or mine for that matter.Too busy strumming devotional songs probably! Mark's father was indeed Air Marshal Dowding I later gathered, who was, it turns out, rather an unusual gentleman not just for his military status but also for his belief and commitment to Spiritualism which was very popular during WW2. My mother, who lost a husband and brothers from WW2 air crashes, still has a book by him I think, called 'Testimony of Light'. Basically there were a lot of aircrew being killed at that time and through Spiritualism there was a conviction that those who had recently suffered violent and very sudden deaths could be 'helped' through to the other side'. My mother is/was into this stuff and has healing prayer groups at her house to this day. As regards money given to Maharaji. I personally never had any very significant funds to give although I fancy the sum of my contributions and pay cheques over the years must be quite considerable. My family spent all their money on my education and fortunately there was little left over for me to give away although I seem to remember an aunt being very disgusted that the money she had put in trust for my brother and I was spent, as soon as we could get our hands on it, on air tickets to 'see the guru'. it's very easy to lose money and hard to earn it. Easy come, easy go. My brother managed to lose £20,000 of his inheritance by lending it to a rather dodgy black geezer in Brixton who declined to pay him back rather aggressively. You live and learn. My brother's sheltered upbringing had evidently not prepared him for the London low-lifes. His trusting nature was duly swiftly abused. Obviously there was time when we all gave everything we could to Maharaji and that always included our money if we had any. I still don't agree with the idea that one can buy favours from Maharaji since I would judge that as a potentially unfair situation which may alienate sincere people without money. It smacks of a corruption and hypocrisy in an organisation which apparently offers 'the Guru's indiscriminate and equal love for all'! This highlights the perception of Maharaji and other gurus as basically being more concerned with running a business than maintaining ethical standards and brings in the more sinister possibility that such people are actually motivated by money and not anything noble or altruistic. I once was offered the opportunity to make a large contribution in exchange for a 'priviledged' seat at a program in Wembley ( I was approached as someone who flattered me that I was well-off enough to maybe want to make a contribution - say about £400 - to sit closer to M). I think I gave the money ( at the time I thought 'well what the hell - why not?') but actually ended up sitting in a crap seat so as I could be next to a newcomer who actually didn't enjoy it much anyway. No, I think it is rather sad that the money is so important a factor if not only because Maharaji and his family seemed to spend it rather flippantly. I could never get used to the way Raja Ji and he would flaunt themselves in brand new super-cars by the score whilst we drove around in old bangers etc. I am a great believer in equality. I am not saying that Maharaji and his family should be poor, I just think that the wealth they had was rather at our expense and was largely spent on incredible luxuries. The other thing is that it's all very fine premies having this lowly image of themselves (which he helps them have) and Maharaji believing he's the Great King and helping them to think that too. I say - blow that for a lark! - I deserve just as good as he does because ( to quote from Tim Hain's new premie anthem) I too... 'Feel like a King'. (Incidently I helped master Tim's new album so premies can now see I am still doing service! I didn't charge a penny and Tim's given me a credit!) That's the trouble with M, you can give him the known world but it won't buy you any favours in his court for long. All I got for my earlier money donations was a few wild parties in expensive hotel rooms around the world, some private darshans and some second row seats occasionally. I know this is said tongue in cheek but there is an element of truth there in that you of course still saying that money CAN buy you favours in his court even if not for long. I am not so comfortable with this. Reading between the lines I am not so sure you are too. maybe that is why you kind of make a joke of it. I don't argue about being a spoiled brat, it's true I haven't adjusted to the 'real' world of work and suffering and 'earn your right to live' and all that stuff very well. But I was a sensitive dreamy little fellow unlike some of my fellow aristocrats who became truly high handed, obnoxious and arrogant in adulthood. That's not an argument for giving away one's inheritance. Having a good education, money, whatever does not mean you have to be 'high handed, obnoxious and arrogant in adulthood'. I know many are like that - I know a few - but hey..it sounds like Maharaji himself isn't so immune to the dismissive arrogance one associates with the priviledged. Maybe it has something to do with the 'Nouveau Riche' syndrome. You know ...get rich without too much sweat and can't handle it with grace - treat employees suddenly as if they were beneath you. The way I understood it was that real aristocrats usually have manners and character. They're often very humble people. Anyway, Mark was on about being struck off his due inheritance cos of his drug taking when younger and was bemoaning the fact that there he is in Norfolk surrounded by his toffy nosed twit multi millionaire family and living like a pauper (by his standards) so I hope PW may be able to connect him with my brothers - in the flesh. They may help him to continue writing and art which he's really good at. I have a school friend whose mother and her millionaire husband live at the farn where I was brought up. They have more money than they could possibly ever need and basically amuse themselves with show-jumping and shooting as far as I can see. Their son, my friend (who also was a premie) lives extremely humbly and has no apparent benefits from his hugely wealthy family. also he is a recovering heroin addict with wife and kids. they always seem to be strugling for money. At least Maharaji shares his fortunes with his kids I guess. My family were not in the least toffy-nosed or as wealthy and there was little inheritance left for me even though my parents gave me financial help whenever they possibly could. The ashram closed in 1980-81 just after my father died. I had spent years directing resources to M and I remember feeling now was the time to put a bit more back into my own life before it was too late. I had learned in the ashram that there was no such thing as Grace in that there were always prosaic explanations for people 'getting on' in life , whether that be within the society of Maharaji's World or the broader one. In fact, when I was the Ashram Co-ordinator it was my responsibility to make sure that the money came in. I recall that it was so futile trying to drum it into my dreamy ashram mates heads that we should maximise our earning potentuial and get really as good jobs as possible, that I essentially gave up and decided to rely on example. Thus I learned that intelligence and the mind are the God given tools that enable us to get what we want and nobody - not even Maharaji is concerned with 'blessing us' or giving us the rosy future we all dreamed of. As testament to this - Behold the troops of dissappointed premies holed up in ashrams waiting to be called up - to be blessed gracefully to do some fullfilling and special service. I quickly noticed that by being humble and un-ambitious one merely accelerated ones descent into obscurity. Indeed only those who ambitiously filled in forms and begged endlessly and painfully ever got noticed and promoted! most of them are still doing it. Luckily I saw the light and realised the real principal of 'Getting On'. Basically this entailed stopping giving everything to Maharaji (who I considered had easily enough to be getting on with) and investing in my future. This became possible when unceremoniously booted out of said Ashram by the joint efforts of Dick Cooper and Big Frank. Not only had my recently deceased father left me 10,000 pounds to buy an 8 track and a synth, but also my dear old mum gave me a roof over my head and fed me whilst I feverishly burned the candle bulding up my own business and life- making up for lost time. My feelings are that Maharaji really drained away my resources from 17 to 25 and, despite the 'spiritual gain' and fun - there was a real imbalance on the material front as demonstrated by the fact that I did nothing at all I wanted whilst in his surrender machine trip and really was not in any way constructively employed. If my education and upbringing gave me anything it was the urge and desire to give myself wholeheartedly to something that I wanted to do that was also a GOOD thing. IE. I wanted to do something useful on the planet and I trusted that Maharaji would give me a MORE useful and fulfilling role in his Master Plan, than anything I could drum up for myself- I was prepared to put my head on the bock -surrender my ego to do this. i trusted that at the very least, the unknown fate that Maharaji had in store for me would be pleasant. Not so. Maharaji clearly could not give me a role - He was preoccupied in doing his own thing in HIS way which effectively included nobody - at least with any lasting reward or involvement. He wanted ALL the credit. And..By Jove! He's getting it! I confess that I was very ambitious too - but, I maintain, not in the self-centred negative way that was anathema to us all -but in that I dearly wanted to live my life to the max and to do so in line with Gods Will if there ever was such a thing. These were the hopes I projected onto Maharaji and is the reason why I bought into his campaign to 'surrender our lives' so that, ostensibly, he would give us a Real Life with real service to do. Now that translated actually into a life with no room for 'a past' and for me, extremely little pleasure either intellectually or physical. Certainly no perceived future either - no guarantees made. I cannot begin to say how demoralised I became being the humble ashram 'nothing' that I understood he wanted me to be when it became more and more tedious and unrewarding. Now I want to bring in one other point here and that is about the much vaunted pleasures and benefits of meditation which is after all probably the most obvious and attractive initial 'gift' that Maharaji offers and what Maharaji presented to us as essentially the only experience that we really needed . (Hence the emphasis on renunciation). Now I became quickly impressed and addicted to meditation (or 'Practice' if you prefer) after receiving Knowledge in 1974. Now all these premies who now get Knowledge and enjoy this feeling and get on with their lives as well have no experience of what it is like doing absolutely nothing week-in, week-out but Service (meaning doing things that are in no way actions thought up by you but doing things you may not particularly like and are told to do by others) . Nor have they experienced having to give up for ever their relationships with their parents and loved ones to henceforth keep only the company of premies and whoever you may meet during the course of service. Nor have they experienced having to forgo the familiar nightly comfort of maybe watching the TV or catching a film, to be replaced by nightly having to endure abjectly monotonous and often insane Satsang - a sentence which extends to having to usually spend one's entire weekend sitting uncomfortably in some dank hall in some dreary town - listening to the likes of Peter Ponton, Nick Seymour Jones, David Smith, banging on with exactly the same stuff. Of course what this amounts to is such a lack of any pleasurable, intellectual or physical stimulation or intimacy, that all that can possibly remain - to make you feel anything remotely personal - is the 'experience inside you yourself' which , take it from me, is actually under these appalling circumstances NOT ENOUGH to take away the overwhelming feelings of despair and being un-loved or cared for. Basically it is, in my opinion, simply proven over-rated. My experience has been that the 'Hindu-like' experiment conducted by Maharaji and his predeccessors, whereby through being subjected to isolation and humiliation one was supposed to turn the more to, and be embraced and fullfilled by the Guru's grace - was a complete failure. In fact it proved to me all the more that human values, social values, love for one's fellow man, using ones mind, enjoying the pleasures of life, and doing one's own thing and being responsibly ambitious are actually far more rewarding and noble aspirations than merely meditating and 'serving ' . The latter yielded more and more boredom and misery in my case- and also a lot of emotional upset due to the Master failing to meet my expectations as someone who had undertaken to 'look after me' if I surrendeered to him. Actually forget my 'expectations' ! He failed to fulfill his promise -which was to give me peace. I hated being in the ashram. In fact I hated it so much that my bottled -up resentment at being bullied and pressured into being there has actually totally put me off what simple pleasure I got from practicing knowledge in the first place. This in turn makes me resentful of Maharaji who ironically I feel in some ways both inspired me to find my 'inner sanctum' and yet also succeeded in royally putting me off. When I recall this later period it gives me the creeps. I am not lying if I tell you in all honesty that some of the worst moments of my life were also those when I was also strongly feeling 'Holy Name' and 'Tasting Nectar'. although those feelings were there they were not comfort enough to salve the huge lack of love I felt at being apparently condemned to such a dreary life ad infinitum. It would maybe have been OK if my only prior experiences of life had been terrible suffering but I came from a happy, loving, in some ways privileged background which stood me in good stead to live a happy, busy, loving and honest life. I felt I deserved better. To think I renounced all my families love and the other good things in life to undergo this painful charade is absolutely too much. If the goal of knowledge is to humiliate one and make one a servile automatum who is prepared to turn a blind eye to ethics and waste one's talents and pursue the addictive but shallow lifestyle of being a premie then fine. But it's not for me. If other's want to do that fine but you won't catch me traipsing off to Miami and India at the drop of a hat to catch up with my trans-atlantic friends and to catch a little of the show. It's not a priority and I look back at that need being more of an emotional fix - evidence of some reluctance to just face the world and get on. I've been there to the hilt and feel that my ashram commitment was proof enough that that way lies no good. My only regret is that I think that if Maharaji had encourged a more balanced, and less 'Maharaji dependant' approach, firstly he would have been more succesful than he has been in spreading some light around the world, and secondly he would have spared a lot of us the emotional torture and abuse of having to surrender the reins of our young lives to a person who was unable to receive the hugely sincere sacrifices we made. The family lawyers are better off spending their time looking after what's left Jim (The Lloyds Insurance collapse left a big dent), rather than trying to take back a gift the second son 'bequethed to a guru'. They were stunned at the time and cut off all my connections to Couts. But Dad has admitted since that M and K seems to have worked very well for me! It's true, I have grown into a particularly happy, loving individual. I don't doubt that but maybe you could have had it all -maybe Maharaji spent your money on a new BMW for Wadi - how would you feel about that? I guess that the crunch would be that if you, like me, felt that you really needed that money to do something that you really believed in -maybe like paying for your own kids well-being, then you would not be prepared to just give it away to Maharaji. there's always someone else to buy his daughter a ProTools system or whatever. I have enough trouble affording mine thank you very much. I actually have major plans on what to do with my money! Personally - when I eventually earned any substantial money I felt it paramount to use it wisely. I had plenty of ideas of how I could use it and I was by then under the distinct impression (despite the urgent pleas for money by Yorum etc.) that Maharaji had effectively more than he could possibly want to spread his message. Clearly , judging by the proliferation of jet planes, yachts, cars, manorial properties etc.etc. he had a good deal left over after his 'Spreading knowledge' expenses for his own personal pleasures and whims. he doesn't need my money - I do. I just followed his example I guess. I decided that I would keep my money and look after myself and those around me who really do love me from now on.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 23:50:09 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: Hi Patrick Message:

Loved your thoughtful and interesting post as always. Glad you already know Mark, he's a great talent and a hilarious raconteur and lives a life pretty similar I'd guess to your friend on the farm. Interestingly, like your brother my elder bro was also taken for a ride after entering the murky world of big business, by a shark in San Diego who set up a complicated commodity futures scam in LA and lured my bro into sending receipts from London 'prior to payment' to amass a small fortune on paper and give his fake company life. Once he'd made millions and nicked off, the only evidence was all these receipts from 'Roupell of London' so the feds charged over the hill and bollocked him. It cost him a small fortune to stay out of US (and jail) and ruined his name in the city. Did him good 'perspective wise' though. On recovery, he sent me a sweet letter saying 'I think I understand your perspective on life a little more clearly now boysie!' Naturally I was very chuffed and praised M and K lavishly for my gift and eagerly assumed he'd be in line for K next. Wasn't to be and he went on to build up a fine reputation in the European world of err....well, whatever it is that the Eurotrash Aristocracy do, other than go on endless shoots and boating trips with each other! He's still naive but really on the ball in his particular park. I sympathize and heartily agree with a lot of your take on the ashram world and M's influence, deliberate or otherwise, during that time. I had a different journey but saw and felt many of the same things you did. I agree about coming from a warm caring background into the cold rigid authoritarian confines of an ashram or premie house. Golly, it was like going back to some of the worst moments of boarding school, what on earth possessed us!!? Some folks were clearly there to better their station in life and saw M and K as a way of doing that. But us bluebloods, we gave away much more to practice the trip than people can ever imagine. So I quite agree with what you have done and applaud the courage and clear-sightedness that allowed you to do it. The money thing is very interesting, I have been surrounded by and have witnessed such colossal wastes of cash my whole life that I feel almost immune to it. Both within my family and with friends of, I've watched millions go on the most monumentally stupid, selfish and downright absurd ventures that at one point it vexed my soul to the moving away from it all and living like an impoverished hippie in London town. The wealth that the wealthy squander is beyond belief, simply because it is not an issue with them. M's 'nouvearich' attitude is typical of an Indian made good in the West but Prempal is a very smart dude and (from what I can see) quickly surrounded himself with the more conscious of the wealthy class who, although extravagant and highly luxurious, do not go the Robert Maxwell or Liberace way. But these people gain no solace from money, they are way beyond that and realize that life must, by definition, have more to offer than mere physical luxury and comfort. My dear Dad is one of those English gentleman you mentioned, humble as anything, radical in his world outlook and you'd never know by his manner and appearance anything about his worldly status. But he isn't a world renowned teacher who's trying to reach as many as possible so he couldn't care less about his public image. I was talking to a well to do stockbroker who knows a little of M's activities and is not a pwk. He was mortified that M is being judged for his wealth because he has used 'personal gifts and his own considerable talents' to make a success for himself and his family. It's what everybody does when they grow up! I think it conveniently escapes the critics notice that many of M's financial gifts were, and are, given directly to him, nothing to do with his mission or teaching but directly to him. I can vouch for that myself because, like many, I didn't like the 'organisation' so I thought bugger them, this lot goes straight to M as a token of my love and esteem. I'm really glad he invested wisely despite the Lamborgs, Ferraris and Porches. By the way...I'd like to make (perhaps a little known) point about this car/boat/plane thingy. Once one has established a line of credit as a player in the prestige market, it's open slather, completely. I've seen poncy heirs go through several Ferraris a month, complaining about this or that. It's easy to pick, swap, exchange, take back, demand the latest model, have three at a time while 'testing'. Because smart thinking dealers know damn well that if they piss of ONE of their well heeled clients then they're gonna lose a dozen or so, minimum, because they're all connected to the same pipeline. The high end dealers of anything are had by the bollocks. So outside observers should note that M could be seen with any number of high value items that he may just be toying with for a few months, sending back for a different model etc etc. The boat and plane are classic examples, any time M wants, or the lessee wants, they can be handed back for almost the same price they were leased. Everything at that level is a loan - NO-ONE OWNS ANYTHING!! That's the game of the rich. In this country the 'dream' is to own your own house because at least the Aussies understand that once you do, you can start to look at dabbling in other things with the capitol investment available. Being rich is the easiest thing in the world once the bank likes your smell. Just ask Christopher Skase's family! Actually Murdoch is a better example, my mother's great Aunt, Margaret Fairburn, is Rupert's cousin. So, I'm patiently waiting for my Murdoch related trickle down!!! he he I'm banging on, sorry (and probably royally pissing off the judging jackals) and will look forward very much to continuing this conversation at the Kings Arms when I'm in Europe for a short tour next spring/summer. You'd love mother's estate near Icklesham and she will be absolutely delighted to meet an old Hurstpierpoint boy, particularly one who has wrested himself from the guru's shackles! The last pwk she met was the aimiable Clive Holmes who splendidly managed to con her into parting with some of the family portraits for a jumble sale. (I shudder about that now, believe me!!) I guess, my main point is that once serious money happens, and it only has to happen ONCE. Once one become a known player in the luxury anything market then one virtually has a licence to procure anything one wants whether money is exchanged or not. It all works on reputation reputation reputation and, in a worldly sense, just like his pilot's credentials M's reputation in the world of the elite player is second to none. Being a genuinely genuinely nice guy with a genuinely genuinely cool vibe has helped him no end. He has nothing to prove and it shows. So most people try to prove something to him! I can vouch for the same chemical reactions, to a lesser extent, taking shape in the somewhat shabby existence I also thoroughly enjoy. That's a grace I feel. He said life would turn out like that and it does. I just don't live a millionaire lifestyle like the rest of my clan, much much too lazy to keep packing, unpacking, changing hotel rooms, cars, planes, boats, trains every five minutes, having people keeping a constant eye on my stocks and shares. Horrible! Great you're working with Tim. Well done. Music is taking off amongst many here too. I've been working on an interesting musical piece that is becoming quite thrilling, it starts with a classical guitar figure, goes into laid back blues, ventures on into a heavy metal chord pattern and finally erupts in a soaring out of this earth metal guitar solo. Now looking forward to the interesting task of engineering the several tracks of each piece into one defined musical passage. Interesting what you were saying about the warm upbringing not being conducive to 'surrendering all' to the Knowledge etc. I felt quite strange learning the blues, when nothing about my life resembled any basis for that sort of music at all! We better keep these long exchanges to ourselves in future Patrick, it's all a bit OT. cheers

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 20:37:27 (EST) From: jonathan Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com To: SC Subject: Re: Hi Patrick Message:

If it's true that M or EV or other subsidiary corporations lease M's goodies, then how is it that M bought the Challenger IV from King Hussein? Automobiles might fit into the lease scenario, but jets and real estate are another matter. These are usually owned or mortgaged until owned.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 21:05:31 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: jonathan Subject: Like I said J Message:

In that league one doesn't OWN anything over a toothbrush.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 20:42:40 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: SC Subject: You're a lost soul pal... Message:

....and not very bright. A most unfortunate combination. Seeing as you know the ins & outs of playing at the same table as the big boys,why don't you put everything on the Rawat card & go with the flow. Many have done just that over the 30 yr period that he spent establishing his 'reputation'. You obviously kept something back for a rainy day which is quite sensible,but utterly craven given your unending defence of the man. Put your money where your mouth is or keep it shut. You may have blueblood but you are certainly not a gentleman.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 21:08:57 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: PatD Subject: I know Message:

That's the difference between you and me.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:52:19 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: What a fine post, Patrick [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:13:54 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Ditto, Patrick (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:25:08 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Joe Subject: Yes, excellent post Patrick. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:14:47 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Ballad of the lost Trust Fund.... Message:

I could tell a very similar story.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:21:57 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Jim Subject: It was a big investment for all of us Message:

Jim, wthat's what's even sadder. We've all lost our investment. A huge price. Money can be recovered. And if you survived, you've at least survived. But we all have some losses that money can't recover.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 11:53:55 (EST) From: Selene Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: It was a big investment for all of us Message:

So true Deb. Hope you are doing ok with the different things we talked about. I'll email. One thing I lost for years was the ability to think. Most of my thoughts and the resulting feelings and actions were filtered through all those years of satsang, videos. I had to relearn so many things. You cannot buy that type of help, although I have spent a lot of money on therapy and it has helped but the real learning comes with experience. And I don't consider having to work to be 'suffering' because a lot of my post-premie life learning has come from having to co exist and cooperate with the others I work with NON PREMIES even ohmygawd. I no longer see them that way, I see us all as people with our own ups and downs and quirks and good and bad times. I used to see them as outsiders, they didn't have what I had, knowledge. This focusing on wealth in this thread is odd to me but I think the joke is on M because I have seen how miserable one very close to me is, with all the money she could even imagine and never spend. (you know some of my family story) This time of year brings out the rebel in me regarding materialism. But it is sad that so many gave away so much money to th Guru. Thanks for the post Patrick.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 04:22:33 (EST) From: Terry O'Gorman's Clients Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: No wonder SC's freaking Message:

He has a lawyer. He is not David Roupell. I am not Derek Harper.and the game has just begun. The Macca/s are a coupla dope smoking loonies. But , hey Jim :you wanya run with them , lets go.And look up my credentials, I'm not kidding!

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:01:20 (EST) From: McDuck Email: None To: Terry O'Gorman's Clients Subject: Re: No wonder SC's freaking Message:

Would you care to disclose on what you base your assertion about my character before you dig yourself too deep a hole?

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 15:48:22 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Terry O'Gorman's Clients Subject: Oh sht up already, Derek! Message:

Look, Harper, the gig's up. We all know who you are and your stupid, veiled threats mean nothing. If you want good legal advice, perhaps you should consult a certain New York lawyer we all know and love. I'm sure he's in an excellent position to give you fantastic advice right now. :)

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:11:15 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: DEREK HARPER Message:

Jim, how do you know it's Derek Harper? I did hear that Harper comes from some highbrow Melbourne family, and can be very nasty. Maybe some of that fits, but I'd be surprised if one of Maharaji's Instructors would risk drawing even more embarrassment to his Master. Have I missed something?

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:06:29 (EST) From: The Southern Spotted Rock Quoll Email: None To: Joe Subject: NOT DEREK HARPER Message:

You missed the fact that it is a campaign to slur M any way possible. I am very obviously not the big D. I flit between here and NZ. So what ? There are a minimum 6 large bodied aircraft a day doing that. That is not a point of identity. Mr Harper is not NET savvy , like the majority of his generation. He would not be capable of keeping up the level of contact.No, you haven't missed a thing. Just a typical Pat Conlon vicious campaign to discredit two people who have never set foot into this place.And now by default an attempt to discredit M by attacking the big D. Pathetic...

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:34:24 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: The Southern Spotted Rock Quoll Subject: Which are you? Message:

Sorry, but if you keep posting using different names I have no idea if you are the same person posting as Catweasel. Are you? 'The big D?' How very sweet. What generation is Derek Harper? I would imagine he's about 50, just like most of the people who post here, so I think his age tells you nothing. Who is attacking 'The Bid D?' Again, I appear to have missed something. I never thought you were anyone in particular, just a premie with lots of time on his hands.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 03:33:55 (EST) From: Cat Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Which are you? Message:

Here it is for you in a nice simple format Joe.(Sorta like warm chicken soup?) I am Catweasel.(Here is a hint -ahorse we have an interest in ran in a sprint race at Terang today- ran third. We called it ..now wait for this...CAT WEASEL). Derek has nothing to do with me. Nothing . It's total fantasy on Conlons part.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 17:53:40 (EST) From: Moll of Mole Email: mollofmole@loveable.com To: Cat Subject: Re: Which are you? Message:

Here it is for you in a nice simple format Joe.(Sorta like warm chicken soup?) I am Catweasel.(Here is a hint -ahorse we have an interest in ran in a sprint race at Terang today- ran third. We called it ..now wait for this...CAT WEASEL). Derek has nothing to do with me. Nothing . It's total fantasy on Conlons part. --- 4 CAT WEASEL(blks) TROY ATKIN (8) 56½ Owner: G V, J G, Mrs H T & Miss L A Mccormick 6yo B G Jugah (USA) - Ever So Gently (Pious) GOLD, WHITE STARS9 Starts. 1-0-2 $6575 Craig Conron(Gnarwarre) Dist 1-0:0:0 Wet 2-0:0:1 1-14 EHPE 10Mar01 1200 4UP MDN-SW, Good, M Evans (14) 57 , $6-1: 2nd Very Risque 54½: 4¼ len, ¾ len, 1-12.21 4-14 EHPE 25Mar01 1200 CL1, Dead, M Evans (4) 57½, $4-1F: 1st Governess 55 : 1.5L, , 1-13.82 3-13 HTON 6Apr01 1400 CL1, Good, M Evans (13) 56½, $6-1: 1st Plutobel 56 : 2 Len, ½ len, 1-22.78

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 20:24:58 (EST) From: Cat Email: None To: Moll of Mole Subject: Offer for Moll Message:

Now where do you live?And can I interest you in a very smart Final Card colt we are about to syndicate? $5000 per share , $240 per month trained by the master in Sydney...Or are you just a good snoop?Your not in property development are you? Teh Heh...Snigger, snigger?

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 04:30:57 (EST) From: Moll of Mole Email: mollofmole@loveable.com To: Cat Subject: Re: Offer for Moll Message:

Now where do you live?And can I interest you in a very smart Final Card colt we are about to syndicate? $5000 per share , $240 per month trained by the master in Sydney...Or are you just a good snoop?Your not in property development are you? Teh Heh...Snigger, snigger? --- CW Thanks but I am not interested in houses, horses or anything like that . I am only interested in caring for my boyfriend 'B' as he exits this rather strange cult. He was until a couple of months back employed full time in ev but is now rethinking his options, although not an ex just yet. So CW the McCormicks are the owners of Cat Weasel and they live in Numurkah, country Victoria. You live in Melbourne and your name is not McCormick, so what gives? By the way we live in Miami.

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 09:08:54 (EST) From: Catweasel Email: None To: Moll of Mole Subject: Re: Offer for Moll Message:

On the Gold Coast?

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 13:58:38 (EST) From: Moll of Mole Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: No ,States (nt) Message:

rerrr

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:32:53 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: The Southern Spotted Rock Quoll Subject: Re: NOT DEREK HARPER Message:

'Just a typical Pat Conlon vicious campaign to discredit two people who have never set foot into this place.' If this is the case, then why didn't you and the other person just say your names so that Derek and David can have been saved from an unnecessary hassle. I find it a bit strange that neither of them have posted here to complain and/or back up you two.......or have I missed something?

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 03:40:48 (EST) From: Cat Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: NOT DEREK HARPER Message:

They wouldn't bother. And generally neither do I. But this has gone too far.It's becoming ludicrous. 'Never set foot into this place' Why would they suddenly do so?I warrant they dont even know they feature here.Get it straight Jethro This IS a pissy little backwater. And for outsiders ,it's full of Croc's, Shark's and Cane Toads. And COCKroaches like Pat C

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 22:22:07 (EST) From: Not Roger eDrek Email: None To: Cat Subject: yup, we are a pissy backwater Message:

Catweasel, if EPO and this Forum are just a pissy little backwater why do you spend so much time and effort trying to derail the discussions with your snide, useless, and arrogant commentary? Seems to me like you have either nothing much going on in your life or you feel the need to defend your Lord and Master, Maharaji, from this little backwater. And why would Maharaji and his lawyers make such an effort to shutdown these pissy little backwaters if they weren't have an effect on Maharaji's bottom line and impact his completely over-the-top decadent and sick lifestyle. And, CAT, why does it appear that you love to jump in on the Jagdeo threads? You really are making a huge effort to defuse that huge mine. Catweasel, I can't understand what you are up to here. Maybe you think you are helping the Lord of the Universe somehow, but really, your responses have got to scare the living shit out of reasonable, rational people who might be considering surrendering their lives to the Living Master. Has Maharaji ever talked to you about what you're doing here? What is really scary is if Maharaji condones your work here. I mean, what a stupid fucking idiot he would have to be. Can't Maharaji afford Hill and Knowlton anymore? Come on, Catweasel, lay it on me, man. You're cool and so am I, huh? Chow!

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 03:43:29 (EST) From: Not Thelma Email: None To: Not Roger eDrek Subject: Give Pissy er Pussy a break Message:

He has an addictive personality - probably a booze artist, maybe a womanizer, possibly a gambler (luv em horsies) and definitely a forum addict. Don't blame him. Blame us. He just loves us. Or rather he's gotten used to us like a case of incurable psoriasis. Gotta scratch that itch, hey, Pussywillow? Woof! Pat:C)

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 06:08:24 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Cat Subject: Excreta taurus cerebum winket Message:

You really make me laugh (..eeer and cry ...remember about the fish in the sea making Kabir laugh and cry). I exited the cult without knowing any of the information from this ex-site. This site is actually referred to on many many ex-cult sites as a good example. Funnily enough, among those that I know and knew, it was only premies, and not exs, that mentioned this site to me. When I had THAT conversation with Ron Geaves about m, ev and Jagdeo, Ron was mostly annoyed that his name was mentioned on the forum and that there were doctored pictures of m(one with rather breasts on. The point I am making here it was all about appearance. This site has given an enourmous contribution to the anti-cult scene. I know that many here want to get rid of you and others, but I see your type as good contributors here. I know that being in a cult you don't know how silly you sound. This place helps people make informed decisions. If people still want to 'follow m' after reading about all the revisionsism and m's silence on the allegations of abuse by his generals, then they are welcome. Maharaji and his organisations do not believe in democracy, as is demonstrated by their net sites not allowing any interaction other that that which follows the party line. people like you are bit like fundamentalists who don't believe in democracy but use it for their own ends thus proving that THEIR system doesn't work. QED

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 22:30:14 (EST) From: man on street wearing trenchcoat Email: None To: Jethro Subject: get your doctored pictures here Message:

The Living Bra Master [ Do ya think I'm sexy? ]

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 04:18:44 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Cat Subject: Re: NOT DEREK HARPER Message:

Oh my, Pussy Pie! ''A COCKroach like Pat C?'' Pulling your punches? Don't you mean cocksucker? Night, night, I'm off to bed. Have fun pissing all over the forum.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 07:28:59 (EST) From: Cat Email: None To: PatC Subject: Insect! Not Baileys and Schnapps Message:

No, I meant 'roach'

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:19:13 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: I learnt it on EPO (didn't I?) Message:

Joe, I have no doubt that Catweasel may be Derek Harper. Isn't that enough? :)

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:34:04 (EST) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: Jim Subject: Well, no, not really Message:

Can you tell me how you know? And if it's true, is Harper making legal threats because he fears some unsavory stuff will be disclosed about him on these pages? Plus, being one of M's Instructors, wouldn't he have better things to do than obsessively post on the Forum, where he is continually ridiculed and made fun of, for YEARS? Of course, I know M has hardly any aspirants, but you would think Harper would at least be going through the motions away from the computer. BTW -- Jim, I just saw a copy of that video of M's 'history' and it is infuriating. Joan Apter is on it, so is Glenn Whittaker, and John Hampton is on there to, although he looks terrible, like he's recovering from cancer or something. I have to write a critique, which I will, but every time I start I get so pissed off, I have to stop.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:55:12 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: OK, I had a dream .... Message:

Joe, I don't really know that CW's DH with my mind. But I feel it. Well, I feel something and who's to say that's not it?

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 18:38:20 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: Joe Subject: Your tape Message:

Hi Joe. I'd like to see the tape? May I borrow it? Want to come over for some egg nog and watch the tape? Or just eggnog? I'm glad Herrera won. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 22:33:35 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Marianne Subject: hey, can I see the tape, too Message:

hey, me too!

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:28:39 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Marianne Subject: The Tape Message:

I got the tape from a new ex-premie who saw on the Internet that I asked about it, but didn't want to give M money for it. Pretty packaging. I guess this new ex-premie didn't want the damn thing around anymore. When I'm done, you can see it. I have another tape you might want to see -- M pontificating on how to propagate knowledge. Can't wait to see that one. Yes glad Herrera won. Quite an upset. I forget just how liberal this city really is. It's the left that is the most energized to win in such a low turnout election. Someone reminded me that in the last Mayor's election, we had a black man running against the gay man and both were non-issues. The only issue was who was more liberal. Only in San Francisco.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 16:26:41 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: Stop betting on horses, Harper... Message:

...and save your money for a good lawyer.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 13:13:05 (EST) From: Rocky Bullwinkle - Well, Cat, you'll Email: None To: Terry O'Gorman's Clients Subject: need those lawyers. How's Boris? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:29:31 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: Terry O'Gorman's Clients Subject: Is this what you mean, Harper? Message:

Watchdog wants sex victim tapes [The following is an article by Christine Reschlag, published in the QLD Courier Mail.] The Queensland Council for Civil Liberties wants confidential counseling sessions with alleged sexual abuse victims to be taped for use as evidence in court. The Council said the move would stop some practitioners shredding notes and “coaching” clients. Council Vice-President, Terry O’Gorman said the proposal stemmed from fears counseling could result in repressed memories or “contaminated” evidence being put before juries. He said that in one case a woman underwent 20 sessions before she was able to recall an incident of abuse. The proposal is contained in a submission to the Law Reform Commission which also argues that child witnesses should be afforded no more rights than accused paedophiles. Counselors warned yesterday that victims would be deterred from seeking help if confidential sessions were taped.. …Mr O’Gorman conceded yesterday that his proposal was controversial but said the cases to which he was referring were held in a closed court and confidential sessions would not be revealed “to the world at large”. “I expect that the opposition will be strong but it is an issue which must be addressed,” he said. “On the one hand, complainants who have in fact been sexually abused are entitled to the benefit of counseling. On the other hand, accused persons are entitled to put before a jury evidence which may indicate that a particular allegation has been influenced as to detail or nuance by counseling. Assertions by some counselors that they do not attempt to influence complainants strain credibility. Some counselors in this area are ideologically driven and have only minimal respect for procedural protections designed to minimise the risk of a miscarriage of justice.” University of Queensland associate professor in clinical psychology, Matt Saunders, described it as “ill-advised”. “If people widely understand that this was what could happen and there was a caveat put onto the consultation it could constitute a significant barrier to a client talking about complex issues,” he said. Australian Psychological Society communications director, Peter Cotton, said it was unreasonable to compulsorily record sessions. “We don’t want people going back into the closet feeling they have to be covert,” he said. Victims of Crime spokesman, John King, said last night he vehemently opposed the proposal, as it would stop victims speaking out in the first instance. Christine Retschlag, The Courier-Mail, 16/4/99 --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 02:47:09 (EST) From: Marshall Email: None To: Jim Subject: what a geek Message:

Man, you are really a nut. I'm almost sympathetic... almost.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 01:56:09 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Jim Subject: He's right (sob) Message:

But it was the plane Jimbo, not the boat. I didn't know anything about that and am duly appalled and disgusted, that I didn't get asked to help fund the thing and receive more perks. That's the trouble with M, you can give him the known world but it won't buy you any favours in his court for long. All I got for my earlier money donations was a few wild parties in expensive hotel rooms around the world, some private darshans and some second row seats occasionally. I ask you! I don't argue about being a spoiled brat, it's true I haven't adjusted to the 'real' world of work and suffering and 'earn your right to live' and all that stuff very well. But I was a sensitive dreamy little fellow unlike some of my fellow aristocrats who became truly high handed, obnoxious and arrogant in adulthood. But background isn't everything cosy. I just received a letter from my dear friend Mark Dowding in England (son of Lord Dowding the master air ace who planned the Battle of Britain - Patrick Wilson are you here? Please email me cos I'd like you to get in touch with Mark, you have a heap in common.) Anyway, Mark was on about being struck off his due inheritance cos of his drug taking when younger and was bemoaning the fact that there he is in Norfolk surrounded by his toffy nosed twit multi millionaire family and living like a pauper (by his standards) so I hope PW may be able to connect him with my brothers - in the flesh. They may help him to continue writing and art which he's really good at. The family lawyers are better off spending their time looking after what's left Jim (The Lloyds Insurance collapse left a big dent), rather than trying to take back a gift the second son 'bequethed to a guru'. They were stunned at the time and cut off all my connections to Couts. But Dad has admitted since that M and K seems to have worked very well for me! It's true, I have grown into a particularly happy, loving individual.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 02:51:50 (EST) From: Marshall Email: None To: SC Subject: What a dumbass Message:

You are truly nuts, aren't you? I'm almost sympathetic towards you. I can't believe how weird the victims of bm's cult are. Truth truly is stranger than fiction. What a planet!

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 02:54:37 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Can you contribute a little more? Message:

Marshall, As you appear to be interested in this phenomenon, parhaps you would like to discuss the 14 objections as detailed on www.ex-premie.org. John

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 02:27:50 (EST) From: Marshall Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Can you contribute a little more? Message:

I'm sorry but I don't particularly care to discuss the 14 objections, I'm far passed that anyway, since I've never once doubted that Maharaji is anything less than a low budget hustler. As the victim of premie parents, Ive always hated the stupid fat ugly guru, and his schemer family. For some reason this SC character or Roupell or whoever he is irritates me to the point of bothering to respond . I have never encountered a more pompous, bragging, name dropping idiot in my entire life. Check out his post above where he is babbling about 'us bluebloods' and his millionaire english, royal upbringing. It sure sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me, not that I care one way or the other but I've always found that true 'nobles' or whoever don't act the way this clown does. They tend to downplay things, usually it's the poseurs who feel they need to brag and namedrop. Then on top of it he tries to make it sound like the maha is some kind of jetset celebrity, instead of the isolated nouveau riche joke that he actually is, with all of his tacky, garish material possesions. SC and guru fatpants deserve each other. Squids is what we would call them where I'm from.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 18:41:59 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Marshall Subject: **EXCELLENT COMEBACK** Message:

I'm sorry but I don't particularly care to discuss the 14 objections, I'm far passed that anyway, since I've never once doubted that Maharaji is anything less than a low budget hustler. As the victim of premie parents, Ive always hated the stupid fat ugly guru, and his schemer family. For some reason this SC character or Roupell or whoever he is irritates me to the point of bothering to respond . I have never encountered a more pompous, bragging, name dropping idiot in my entire life. Check out his post above where he is babbling about 'us bluebloods' and his millionaire english, royal upbringing. It sure sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me, not that I care one way or the other but I've always found that true 'nobles' or whoever don't act the way this clown does. They tend to downplay things, usually it's the poseurs who feel they need to brag and namedrop. Then on top of it he tries to make it sound like the maha is some kind of jetset celebrity, instead of the isolated nouveau riche joke that he actually is, with all of his tacky, garish material possesions. SC and guru fatpants deserve each other. Squids is what we would call them where I'm from. --- You got it right. Maha is a fraud who has wasted the best years of many people's lives. His cruel little joke and bold face lies are inexecusable. He is not a hip guru. That's just a projection of the premies to justify following this guy and worshipping him as god. You responded very intelligently.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 03:27:22 (EST) From: SC Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Can you do better than that? Message:

No, of course not, You knee jerk hobos are all the same, jealous of anyone who has a life. Ok, but what about this? :: handle: Marshall D'Arcy :: country: USA :: subject2: Cult and Money Maharaji, for me, is Gonash, son of Shiva, with Prosperity and Success as his hand maidens. Was my loss his displeasure? Is my poverty his anger? Maharaji has said that his wealth is a gift from God which then would be indicative of God's pleasure with him, and many Hindus would agree that wealth is indicative of God's pleasure. Rockefeller thought that his wealth was a gift from God and that it indicated God's approval, and most of Rockefeller's fellow Calvinists agreed. I think that money is the root of all evil and a creature of the devil, and no one agrees to that, not even the Pope. Who would ever say upon winning a lotto 'God must really hate me' and what church would say 'please don't give us money, we want God'? I think the greatest hypocrisy America ever indulged in was putting 'In God We Trust' on it's currency, for God and money have nothing in common, for me. Money is a creature of the finite world, the minds of men , and of avarice.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 13:45:35 (EST) From: salsa Email: None To: SC Subject: at the end u talk about 'him' Message:

specially at the end. Pretty greedy idiotic guru? No, a 'smart' bussiness man, a con man. You can't see it? uhhhh

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 03:13:55 (EST) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: Marshall Subject: Squids? Perfect! Message:

Thanks Marshall, you put it perfectly. When I finished reading your post I thought, ''That could have been my own son speaking.'' He's 28 now and the child of premies and he thinks about Rev Rawat in exactly the same way as you do. I think he would agree with your take on SC/Roupell as a ''squid'' (nail on head) and the urug as ''a low budget hustler.'' Write some more please. I'm a fan already. Great post.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 12:52:45 (EST) From: Selene Email: None To: PatC Subject: I'm a fan too Message:

I love your perspective Marshall. It's always great to talk to people who grew up with premie parents. One day on campus I met the oldest of - geez last I counted six - kids of premie parents. Her humour and disgust at the guru were so sincere and direct, no doubt at all in her mind that the whole scene had messed up her siblings she said she felt like the real mother and had taken on a lot of responsibility in raising her younger brothers.

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