Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Dec 09, 2001 To: Dec 17, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


jonathan -:- Attorney Stanley Rosenblatt's Info -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:12:13 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Maharaji didn't give us cancer...... -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:41:26 (EST)
__ bill -:- it is safe to assume he DID have a fee [nt] -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 22:32:10 (EST)

jonathan -:- class action lawsuit -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:24:36 (EST)
__ salam -:- Re: class action lawsuit -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 04:32:46 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Ignorance is as ignorance does [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:03:18 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Salam, what's your problem? -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 09:43:49 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- I agree -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:31:10 (EST)
__ CD -:- Re: class action lawsuit -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:00:26 (EST)
__ __ SC -:- Re: class action lawsuit -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:38:38 (EST)
__ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: class action lawsuit -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:45:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ SULLA -:- Re: class action lawsuit -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 12:03:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Welcome Aboard Sulla -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:29:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Re: Welcome Aboard Sulla -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 08:57:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ to Sulla -:- Re: Welcome Aboard Sulla -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 12:59:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- you're right jonathan -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:06:22 (EST)
__ __ jonathan -:- Re: class action lawsuit -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:29:28 (EST)
__ __ __ janet -:- Re: class action lawsuit -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 05:58:59 (EST)
__ __ __ CD -:- Re: action -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:34:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Here's a fresh example of CD's 'debating' style -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:02:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- The epitome of hypocrisy, CD -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 15:12:27 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Don't even bother with CD -- he's lost -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:08:58 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- again and again actually -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:37:06 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- Let's consider this seriously -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:05:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Let's consider this seriously -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:14:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: Let's consider this seriously -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:40:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Re: Let's consider this seriously -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 01:24:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Almost no one was coerced? -:- Re: Let's consider this seriously -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 06:55:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- There are legal standards for coercion -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:57:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Legality is flexible -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:16:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: There are legal standards for coercion -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 13:46:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, PTL was different again -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 15:17:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Here's the PTL story -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 15:48:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- You are sooooo smart -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:50:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SC -:- You are soooo nauseating! -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:46:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CAC patrol -:- Don't step in this nauseating doodoo [nt] -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 23:07:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: You are sooooo smart -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:56:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: You are sooooo smart -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:15:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Here's some cult sites -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 01:32:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: We are sooooo smart -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:25:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Does she say? -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:35:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Let's consider this seriously -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:45:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- How bout 1 person sue and then -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:58:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sure -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:37:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: Let's consider this seriously -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:50:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Tabacco Lawsuits -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 23:59:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: Tabacco Lawsuits -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:56:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Go for it (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:30:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- One more thing.. -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:43:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Rasheesh spawned cult sued by ex followers -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:01:48 (EST)

The Premie's Creed -:- Maharaji is the Giver -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:13:26 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Premie Creed: Ignore Information -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 18:03:24 (EST)
__ such -:- oh, just some massa-kiss -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:29:13 (EST)

such -:- bin laden tape: a chilling cult classic -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:59:29 (EST)
__ such -:- what video shows vs. transcript -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:23:40 (EST)

Victory -:- Maharaji has been neutralized -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 08:08:56 (EST)
__ and one more thing -:- if only he'd been neutered -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 10:43:19 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Maharaji's Children..... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:22:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I'd like to be a fly on the wall... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:23:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- It's in the mail..... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:29:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Joe :):)... [nt] -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:39:19 (EST)
__ __ __ jonathan -:- Re: Maharaji's Children..... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:54:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ LA mole -:- Re: Maharaji's Children..... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 13:27:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Wadi Sue -:- It's not like you think.... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:58:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Another Mole -:- Hey Wadi -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:19:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ re: 2nd Generation -:- cult members of M -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 13:19:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- agreed -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:43:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: cult members of M -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:17:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- You are so cute :) -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:47:20 (EST)

Jim -:- Oh no! This is SOOOOOOO pathetic! -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:08:32 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Somebody PINCH me. -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:02:57 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Dirty Old Man Meets Fine Young Boy? -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:39:52 (EST)
__ Moley -:- Jogging for God!! -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 08:02:26 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- Come home right now. lover... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:13:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Um, Nige, 'she' s a he -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:55:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Ah - but should we tell her? [nt] -:- Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:53:15 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- Its Premie soft porn ! -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 05:26:50 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Just take up jogging, Loafie :) [nt] -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 13:39:12 (EST)
__ bill -:- Re: -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 23:35:52 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Bill, I can't understand you -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 07:42:50 (EST)
__ __ __ bill -:- good to read you [nt] -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 22:03:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Of course, Bill, always a pleasure [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 00:55:13 (EST)
__ SC -:- Open your eyes JImbo! -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:20:19 (EST)

Jim -:- A real live devotee answers us on ELK -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 21:59:29 (EST)
__ Deputy Dog -:- What? What? What? What? -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:51:22 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Re: What? What? What? What? -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:54:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Joking aside, this means a lot to me [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:59:29 (EST)
__ SC -:- Aw Jimbo... -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:07:11 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- How about this one? -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:18:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Jim, that's abusive -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 17:46:34 (EST)
__ __ __ SC -:- Poetry sucks when it's written down -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:22:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Correct, it was the 80s -:- when m stated to read out his poetry NT -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:35:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Poetry only sucks when it's utter crap! -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:44:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- What about Mike McReady -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:44:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Michael McClure -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:27:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: Michael McClure -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 07:20:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatD -:- In simple silence I start to glisten.. -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:32:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ listen fanatic -:- NOPE -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 08:22:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ SC -:- Time to quit talking about -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:55:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ William Shakespeare ... -:- ... eat your heart out! -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 04:47:29 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Or how about THIS one? -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:22:45 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Aw, yes, sensitivity training from SC -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:12:31 (EST)
__ __ __ SC -:- That's the idea Hell -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:30:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- so u into crack SC? -:- Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 07:27:48 (EST)

Joe -:- Maharaji's History -- EV PR -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:45:21 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: Maharaji's History -- EV PR -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 20:07:58 (EST)

CultbusterUK -:- Message to First Class Users -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:02:46 (EST)
__ Cult member -:- It'll take you way too long -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:13:52 (EST)

nigel -:- picture this.. -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 18:40:03 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- Nige - mebbe you and Moley ... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:17:32 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- Thanks, and yes... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:26:04 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Yes, Fran...Great Idea! [nt] -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:09:37 (EST)
__ __ use same plot -:- except venue is a maximum security prison [nt] -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:25:57 (EST)
__ __ __ red butler -:- I already done that one -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:06:01 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- No Max Sec. Prison, Island good! NT -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:08:05 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: picture this.. -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 10:58:11 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- And...Nigel, -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:20:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- You're too kind, Cynth... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:40:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Blank post? Try again.. -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:51:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Nigel... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:45:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- Cynthia - Kiss a lot of frogs -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 17:46:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Well, Moley, I don't think my husband... -:- Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 09:58:16 (EST)
__ Jim -:- I love this stuff! -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:41:48 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- So do I.... -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 21:44:15 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- How about he does the guru thing ... -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 01:21:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC...and everyday at sunset -:- the former guru dances in a hula skirt -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 02:48:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- YESS!! The wobble dance! -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:51:27 (EST)

Ulf -:- m dancing -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:21:56 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Rod Stewart -- Think I'm Sexy -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 11:53:16 (EST)
__ Abi -:- oh how creepy -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 06:44:13 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- Re: m dancing -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 02:18:34 (EST)
__ __ PatC...forget ''If you think I'm sexy'' -:- What music did hippos in tutus dance to.. -:- Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 02:56:40 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Ulf, I just had lunch [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:27:26 (EST)
__ __ Ulf -:- real lunch -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:57:26 (EST)

Ulf -:- -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:18:50 (EST)

Ulf -:- -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:17:39 (EST)

Jim -:- I guess he must be a Perfect Master! -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 16:31:25 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- You got that right, jim -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:23:22 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Sure, Deb (OT) -:- Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:43:50 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:12:13 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: All
Subject: Attorney Stanley Rosenblatt's Info
Message:
Here's a link to Stanley Rosenblatt. He's the attorney who tackled the class action lawsuit against the tobacco industry. He took little or no money from the victims. Actually my older brother testified as an expert at the trials in Florida. So, I may have an 'in' if ex-premies want to proceed.

This is interesting for me and I want to help in any way I can.
[ Mr. Rosenblatt's address & phone #'s ]

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:41:26 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Maharaji didn't give us cancer......
Message:
About the most you can say is that he said he was God when he wasn't, and took money under false pretenses, and how would a court prove he wasn't? What is your definition of 'God?'

I have always thought an IRS claim would be the most productive, but I think a lot of effort has been put into protecting M with all kinds of legal structures so he doesn't have much exposure.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 22:32:10 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: it is safe to assume he DID have a fee [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:24:36 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: All
Subject: class action lawsuit
Message:
has anyone given any serious consideration to filing a class action lawsuit against M and EV for the ashram scam? Reading people's experiences reminds me of the recent lawsuit brought against German businesses who used forced labor during WWII. If it were proved that M used mind-controlling techniques and other cult behaviors to take people's wages and possessions, it would seem like a good case. Also, the lawsuit might expose the guy for what he is. Victims of the ashrams might be entitled to money he made since restructuring, of course after the lawyers cut.
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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 04:32:46 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Re: class action lawsuit
Message:
get it through your thick skull, the guru is not guilty of anything, plus he lives in AmericKa and in AmericKa you don't sue gurus, because it's anti-something or another, ah shit I remembered, anti-AmericKan way. Ask that looser boofhead PatC that hides in a dark cave and he will tell you.
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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:03:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Ignorance is as ignorance does [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 09:43:49 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam, what's your problem?
Message:
What's up? Why are you so angry at everyone? You've lost your sense of humor and it's just weird.

Hey, lighten up...

I don't understand...

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:31:10 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: I agree
Message:
Jonathan, sometimes this topic with a wide variety of responses. If you would like to take this topic off-forum, I'd be glad to talk to you.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:00:26 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Re: class action lawsuit
Message:
Are you the guy who went to one event in Miami, and now you already have your sights on a lawsuit? What do you know of the 'ashram scam'?
Maybe I have gotten you mixed up with someone else.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:38:38 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Re: class action lawsuit
Message:
No, he's the smarmy guy who snuck into the Miama program for $15 and thought himself terribly clever.

What a fucking hypocrite!

it's a real surprise to see you go this way jcp
what do the guys think???

I can guess.....they know it's all based around your insecure relationship that they've been telling you to grow the fuck out of for months. Let go of her and get a life pal, you've been a mooning pain for too long.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:45:35 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: SC
Subject: Re: class action lawsuit
Message:
No, I didn't sneak in. M spotted me the hundred. I'll mail him some nice cognac when I'm wealthier.

If it's 'hypocritical' to objectively decide if something is best for me, by talking to those who've been there, then so be it.

PS You're confusing me for someone else. 'the guys'?

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 12:03:58 (EST)
From: SULLA
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Re: class action lawsuit
Message:
I heard about this Mexican premie Pepe L. who was in the ashram and won a lawsuit against Maharaji.
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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:29:43 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SULLA
Subject: Welcome Aboard Sulla
Message:
I am glad to see you posting.

Do you know any more about this lawsuit? What was the legal basis for the suit?

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 08:57:22 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Welcome Aboard Sulla
Message:
Thank you Gerry.

I'll try to find out.Got to go now, we have a lot of things to do and my media naranja is going to freak out.

Best regards.

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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 12:59:19 (EST)
From: to Sulla
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: Re: Welcome Aboard Sulla
Message:
Do you know that there is a spanish foro? Well, because of 'naranja' I assumed you speak spanish. Do you? I do.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:06:22 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: you're right jonathan
Message:
I have got you confused with someone else (just read you post way down the line)

Apolgogies for that and no offence intended.

well actually...

just a teensy bit!!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:29:28 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: CD
Subject: Re: class action lawsuit
Message:
CD:

I'm a fast learner. Since returning from the event, I'm learning more about who M really is. It's been a wild week. My premie girlfriend is very pissed at me right now. But good advice abounds here. For the past two years, I was a passive observer ('aspirant') in watching videos and broadcasts, and went to the event last weekend in Miami.

As for the lawsuit, it has a similarity to the suit brought against German corporations who benefitted from forced Nazi concentration camp victims during WWII. Believe me, those victims never thought they would see a penny. And really their individual settlements were a pittance compared to the conditions they endured. But, if you read about the case, the basic reason for it was to hold companies responsible for their illegitimate actions, and more precisely, to rectify the creation of enormous profits they created at the hands of free labor.

I know very little of the ashram scam, but from what I've read, it appears that premies were encouraged to live comunally, work outside, and endorse their paychecks to M. I'm not sure if food and rent were provided in return. Anyway, if lawyers could prove that M used his mind-controlling techniques and cult activities to lure and soak premies, then it seems like an interesting lawsuit. At stake is whether or not M is a cult and whether he inflicted his need for a lavish lifestyle onto unsuspecting cult members. It appears to me that he did use controlling techniques (practicing 2-4 hours daily, celibacy, requesting possessions, etc). And it appears he benefitted tremendously from the ashrams, especially financially. If this is the case, it seems like an interesting lawsuit.

It would be emotionally trying for victims to recall that period in their lives. But I think it was Maimonides who said, 'If I am not for me, then who am I? If I am only for me, then what I am. If not now then when?'

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 05:58:59 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Re: class action lawsuit
Message:
the quote you attribute to ammonides is more fully rendered as
'if I am not for myself, then who will be for me?
if I am only for myself, then what am I?
If not now,--when?'
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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:34:58 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Re: action
Message:
>My premie girlfriend is very pissed at me right now.

Can't you 2 agree to disagree and still get along?
Maybe your girlfriend does get personal benefit from listening to M. Many people do. Many people don't.

Nothing new here. I have heard a similar controversy going on way back in the early 70s when I first heard about M. I don't always agree with what he says or understand all the points he is trying to make. Yet I have heard a focus on respect for life and the force inside us, that is our life, over the last 29 years.
At the deepest level there is the advice to focus quietly within and observe what exists there. If a person finds some inspiration and satisfaction in that experience, then they can pursue that how they like. Or the person might not observe anything that strikes them as important in which case they can go on to other things. And the fact that a person does find satisfaction with an inner experience does not make them selfish or preclude them from sharing love and life with others. In fact it can be a catalyst to do better in the worldly realm of problems, relationships, work, disasters and love affairs.
Is there a whirlwind of stuff and controversy abouve the fundamental message and with M himself? You bet. Nothing new. Is trying to understand what we are at the deepest level through feeling still important? I certainly believe it is. Will logic ever provide the complete answer to the fundamental quests? No. But you can read all about it in the history of religions and philosophy documented by the millions of books stacked up in the libararies around the world.
We have a dilemma here, and an interesting a fiery debate.
I hope you and your girlfriend can debate and relate!

Cheers,
CD

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 20:02:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Here's a fresh example of CD's 'debating' style
Message:
yeah, yeah, yeah
alpha, beta, formulas, postulates, theories, explanations, proofs, paradoxes ...

The situation is that there is no explaining the most important thing of what is. Yet people sense that something is afoot. People desire the feelings of love and joy and continue to stare at the distant stars for that feeling of inspiration. Who are we?

This was something he burped up on LG this aft. This is how he talks and no, Jonathan, it never gets any better.

So, what do you say? How would you like to spend the rest of your life with someone completely impervious to rational debate?

Oh, I forgot, I guess it helps if I close with a completely non-sequitor cliched faux-profundity. How about this one -- Are You my Mother?

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 15:12:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: The epitome of hypocrisy, CD
Message:
We have a dilemma here, and an interesting a fiery debate.
I hope you and your girlfriend can debate and relate!

You, of all people, the one guy who can't stay away from the exes but has averred anything that even looks like debate about Maharaji like a vampire to sunlight, are the last person in the world to say such a thing. I'm absolutely amazed. No, I take that back. If you were a regular person, I'd be absolutely amazed. I have to remind myself who I'm talking to.

But who would ever want to have a relationship on those terms? Agree to disagree about your favorite football team, perhaps. Politics, even. But not whether or not the one person you've chosen as your ultimate guide is a dangerous and worthless cult leader as opposed to some sort of 'master'. That's not the kind of thing you can paste a CD-like plastic wrapper on and maintain any meaningful relationship.

What about YOUR girlfriend, CD? Is she stuck in that same smothering limbo with you? Poor girl. What do you guys talk about? Your latest guitar purchases?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:08:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Don't even bother with CD -- he's lost
Message:
Jonathan,

CD might have been around for decades longer than you but he's afraid to look at the cult honestly, let alone talk about it that way. Getting a sense of M's gross manipulation isn't rocket science. You got it easily enough without getting sucked in like we were, like CD still is. The funny thing is, in a way, you already know more about this scam than CD although he's been involved for years. Crazy, eh?

But if you want to have some fun, don't just take my word for it. Try to have a discussion with Chris. Believe it or not, many have tried for years now but it just ain't happening. The moment he hits something he can't deal with .. well, I don't want to spoil the surprise. Go ahead, try it! Try to talk with him. See what happens.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:37:06 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: again and again actually
Message:
There's several lawyers who post here that are expremies that have stated why it's a waste of time for most people. People have said they were going to go to lawyers and see about doing something and no one has come up with a good class action case that I know of. People have posted that lawyers have been consulted about making expremies a class for purposes of a class action and they see no case here. And exes that are first exiting and are in the anger phase threaten to sue EV and the Maha and have him behind bars and nothing ever happens. Ho hum.

There's been a lot of ranting and raving about it on this forum, from time to time.

An individual, based upon something that happened to them personally (sexual harassment, cheated out of inheritance, etc. etc.) may have a case. But basically, there's no law against being stupid enough to follow the Maha and give him all your money. He's half to blame, and the other half is me. We were quite a team, me and Maha. It was called dumb and dumber. Now I'm not so dumb. That's progress.

The only time the government cares is when the government doesn't get their money through state or federal taxes that should have been paid to them. Nod nod wink wink.

I do more good posting on Forums and warning people to stay away from a cult than I would filing legal papers. They have expensive accountants and lawyers covering the Maha's rather large posterior. Count on it.

LOLs

--f

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:05:55 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Let's consider this seriously
Message:
Actually I have never read where an ex consulted a lawyer and asked about a class action suit. Certainly Jim has commented that he doesn't think it would be feasible but I wouldn't think that was necesarily the last word on this issue.

I think it is worth checking into and there are probably many angles of attack available. You mentioned a couple viable ones yourself.

No, I think those who feel so aggrieved should pursue this a little deeper. I would love to part of a class action which brought Rawat and his Org bankrupcy and ruin.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:14:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Let's consider this seriously
Message:
Actually I have never read where an ex consulted a lawyer and asked about a class action suit. Certainly Jim has commented that he doesn't think it would be feasible but I wouldn't think that was necesarily the last word on this issue.

I think it is worth checking into and there are probably many angles of attack available. You mentioned a couple viable ones yourself.

No, I think those who feel so aggrieved should pursue this a little deeper. I would love to part of a class action which brought Rawat and his Org bankrupcy and ruin.


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I spoke with a prominent American class action lawyer and he's the one who told me it wasn't too feasible. You need a distinct class with fairly consistent claims and damages. Those are two substantial problems. Beyond that, there's the difficulty of getting past religious protection and statutes of limitations. The guy I spoke with reviewed EPO, got a sense of what the core grievances are and passed. Maybe someone would like to try running this by someone else but that's the opinion I got.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:40:27 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Let's consider this seriously
Message:
You need a distinct class

Can you get any more distinct than former ashram premies?

with fairly consistent claims and damages.

For starters, W-2's from employers showing paychecks sent to M, damages from what you would have been earning in the real world, had the cult not trapped you.

Beyond that, there's the difficulty of getting past religious protection and statutes of limitations.

If it were proved that DLM was a cult, which most experts agree, religion doesn't enter into the equation. As for statutes re: Nazi forced laborers recent suit. They won.

The first and biggest leap seems to be developing an understanding that ex-premies were victims, that through no fault of their own, were coerced. Blame needs to be placed squarely were it belongs, and it ain't ex-premies.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 01:24:00 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Re: Let's consider this seriously
Message:
For starters:
For starters, W-2's from employers showing paychecks sent to M, damages from what you would have been earning in the real world, had the cult not trapped you.

No paychecks were sent to M. Those ashram records are LONG GONE, if there ever were any. No, count me out. This is a useless exercise and a dead horse people keep stopping by to beat. The money goes to M through an extremely circuitous route. I doubt it's worth the money to investigate it. Lawyers will not take costly cases unless there's money to be made, and as Joe said in some other posts, who is going to pay the hourly rate for the purpose of proving a point and raising awareness. Frankly, if I had a million bucks I would not spend it "proving a point" against Rawat.

The courts are not going to save people from their own stupidity. Almost no one was coerced. We were stupid enough to listen. There are plenty of religions out there with the same rap. Divine Light Mission and Elan Vital have had a church exemption from the IRS since 1971.

Individual actions are the way to go, for people who have them, and who have the stomach for going through the whole court procedure. Have at it, but none for me, thanks.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 06:55:36 (EST)
From: Almost no one was coerced?
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: Let's consider this seriously
Message:
I guess it all depends on what your definition of 'is' is. Sorry, it just popped into my head.

Seriously, coerced, enticed, tricked or deceived-we were given X amount of info on the joys of K and were allowed to fill in the blanks based on what we wanted-maybe it would just be called merchandising

We weren't coerced but we were. 'It may be correct but it ain't right' the great philosopher Willie Mays circa 1956

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:57:04 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Almost no one was coerced?
Subject: There are legal standards for coercion
Message:
I'm talking legal definition -- a type of coercion that is actually against the law. That's why most of the talk in this thread is apples and oranges when it comes to any viable legal cause of action. Your ARE correct in that 'it ain't right'!!!!! and so is everyone else, but that doesn't mean that every expremie has grounds for a lawsuit.

There are many things that are wrong, but aren't legally actionable, or if they are, there is a problem of proof. That's why there is a saying 'there ought to be a law (against it).'

I personally don't know of any premies that were kidnapped or physically coerced to do anything, or kept in ashrams or service houses against their will. There has been some sexual abuse, but that's not the type of coercion most of the people are talking about in this thread -- they are talking class action. Of course, there may be isolated incidents that I haven't heard about, besides the sex harassment. It was a major mental game, a MindFuck as Richard Mandrake so aptly put it, which is way harder to prove, especially because Rawat still has so many happy customers like Erika and David Andersen and Mitch Ditkoff.

If you go to the websites about cults, this is classic cult stuff, and a cult has to step over the line legally in order for their to be grounds to sue. But these threads flare up occasionally. There's angry talk, talk talk. And very little if anything ever comes of it.

I suppose it's good for some people to vent in this way and go on about how they'll sue his ass, but really, they should just do it and not warn EV by posting on the Forum.

Bests,

F

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 17:16:40 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Legality is flexible
Message:
It is based on what is known. And the phenomenon of thought reform is not widely known. People who brainwash should have to account for it. Even if a ex-cult member loses, look at the publicity it would draw.

If more people take thought reformers to court, the more the judges will know about it. Then, new cases will be able to ride the coat-tails of previous cases and on and on it goes.

Law is not written in stone.

Who would have thought that Americans could sue for stupidity.

WHAT A CONTRY!

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 13:46:17 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: There are legal standards for coercion
Message:
warning EV might say more than actually doing it. Also might scare aspirants like myself.

Its funny: last night I heard that some outraged African Americans are suing Cracker Barrel Restaurant Corporation for discriminatory service: seated in smoking section; at rear of restaurant hidden from view, etc. While I wouldn't put it past Cracker Barrel to do something like this, I will say if they can get a lawsuit, then a group of ex-premies ought to be able to do something.

It's odd how the fear of 'freedom of religion' enters into people's fear of legal recourse: does religion include mind control and requests for gifts of large sums of money? I would like to know more about the fall of PTL, which bears some similarities: asking for cash donations, using video as a medium, promising salvation, etc.

Thanks for your honesty. Whatever happens, M had better watch his step. After our war on terrorism, the media will be begging for a fresh scoop. Also one last thought, 'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.' As far as I'm concerned, its a waiting game before M falls.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 15:17:59 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: No, PTL was different again
Message:
Jim Baker went down because they defrauded people supposedly investing or donating to a particular project, his bizarre Bible park. Big difference.

Clearly, Maharaji defrauded us but yes, there really is a big freedom of religion shield all over fraudulent religious leaders.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 15:48:39 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's the PTL story
Message:
You'll need to scroll down.

And the 'Cracker' case has to do with racial discrimination, again not germane to our issues here.

Swaggart and the Bakkers (PTL) and their cohorts got in trouble for the scheme Jim mentions above, and got in trouble with the IRS. Swaggart was also in trouble for not paying state sales taxes as well (don't know if this is mentioned on that page or not).

And Rajneesh was murder plots and immigration fraud, possibly voter fraud (trying to rig the elections in a small town) etc. Rajneesh follies and the sweet Ma Sheela

Jim's right on about the freedom of religion shield.

Bottom line -- someone has to have broken a law, which either the government will enforce against, or an individual or group has a viable cause of action, can get a lawyer to take the case, and takes it to court on their own dime (or the lawyer's on contingency). Otherwise, no case.

As you can see in Zelda's Centerpointe example in Australia, mucho sex crimes against minors, a big NO NO! There were some sex crimes against minors by Mahatma Jagdeo a number of years ago, and the information on those is on EPO.

Bests,

F
[ PTL Story ]

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:50:19 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: You are sooooo smart
Message:
I like you. You think rightly. I really want to communicate with you.
Please email.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:46:55 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: You are soooo nauseating!
Message:
yes, please DO keep your desperate brown nosing confined to private e-mail systems.

It's just toooooo much

whatawe got here, another Nige and Moley love affair??

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 23:07:05 (EST)
From: CAC patrol
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Don't step in this nauseating doodoo [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:56:01 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: You are sooooo smart
Message:
You're great too. That link to Public Perception vs. Private Research really blew me away. I left it for my partner, but she's in defense mode.

I don't have your email, wait maybe I do. I'll check.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:15:09 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Re: You are sooooo smart
Message:
Try and talk about cults through the Rick Ross sites. There are a lot of good articles there. Tons! And you could print out a new article everyday and put it into a binder. Keep the binder somewhere where she can see it.

Get absorbed in your project and keep the topic off her and Maha. That's a golden opportunity for her to retreat. If she and her cult carrot (K) and the Cult dude (M) who's mug and footsies are in a locket hanging around her neck are not threatened, she may come around. What's with the locket? And she only rec'd K three years ago. YOu see, apparently the Perfect mastery has made it's way to her brain regardless of the new and improved K-lite propagation package.

Out of curiousity, Do you or would you wear a picture of any teachers in a locket around your neck? It's normal, right?

The locket thing is like a ball and chain at best and like a noose at worse.

Trust me, my metaphor on the worse is an actuality for some people who rec'd knowledge and because the idealogy was out of their reach. Of course, it was out of their reach, it's a bunch of Hindu superstition.

The history is sad Jonathan, really sad.

Look forward to your insightful and refreshing posts. Stay well,

deborah

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 01:32:07 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Here's some cult sites
Message:
This one has a links page also, where there are links to other cult sites.

==f
[ Ananda info ]

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:25:37 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: We are sooooo smart
Message:
Thanks for that tip on Rick Ross's sites. She received K five years ago (I was mistaken). People wear insignia which identifies their religion, but it is weird all the same. It is superstition, really. She says stuff like 'they [ex-premies] are being punished.' For what? Why?

It's hard to reason with her. Thanks for the notebook idea.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:35:24 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Does she say?
Message:
Does she say WHY ex-premies are being punished? And what, exactly, is their 'punishment?' And what did they do to deserve to be punished? Who told her that? Would love to hear responses. Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:45:13 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Re: Let's consider this seriously
Message:
I understand that in Australia the laws may be better, but in the USA, class actions are difficult, mostly because of laws set up to protect corporations from product liability lawsuits.

The big issue is constituting a class that will certified by a court, and that would be very difficult in the premie situation, because all of our claims, damages, time periods, etc., would be different.

PLUS, at least in the USA there is WIDE latitude given to religions. Even if you could properly constitute a class, courts are loathe to get involved with religions, no matter how weird they are. So that's another big hurdle.

Third, is class actions are EXPRENSIVE, unless you can get lawyers to take it on contingent fee, and unless they think there is a good recovery, they won't do it. The costs would be very high-- just think of the number of depositions all over the country/world, just for starters. Makes me tired just thinking about it.

Individual actions are more likely, and from what I understand there have been a number of individual lawsuits filed against M, some resulting in sizeable settlements.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:58:30 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: How bout 1 person sue and then
Message:
have a group action instead of a class action.
I believe in austraila it only takes 15 people to form a class.

FYI- the article below is about a cult leader, who was considered devine by his followers. He was a child abuser , but the ex members are sueing for lost wages ect.

http://www.crime.co.nz/c-files.asp?ID=1844


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RELEASE FOR POTTER

Bert Potter was released from jail on March 30, 1999. In a recent interview he said that he did nothing wrong and still believes that sex is appropriate with minors at the start of puberty but will follow the terms of his parole to avoid further jail time. Under the terms of his parole he must have no contact with a child under 16 years of age. He has returned to Centrepoint.

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WHAT WAS CENTREPOINT?
Although Centrepoint is classified in New Zealand as a religion, it is unique in many ways. Members consider it to be a spiritual community, with a belief that spirituality flows directly from their constant contact with Bert Potter.

To understand this more fully, one has to look firstly at Bert Potter, the self appointed guru of Centrepoint.

BERT POTTER – BEFORE CENTREPOINT
Herbert Thomas Potter was born in Christchurch on the 20 May 1925 to parents Fanny and Dick, preceding younger brother Lyndsay by five years.

He studied engineering at Christchurch Technical College and at the age of 16 joined the Home Guard. After his school days were over, he was accepted for Air Crew Training through the Air Training Corps. He never saw battle in the Second World War and after a brief stint working in New Zealand returned to the armed forces, where he was posted to Japan.

Upon returning to New Zealand he worked as a clerk for the Department of Labour, and enrolled in Otago University to study education and political science. He worked part time to support himself and during this period met and married his first wife, Leteia. They moved to Tauranga and Bert began his own business - prompting a further move to Katikati. The business was not a success so Bert resumed teaching.

In search of opportunities and money the young couple moved once again to Auckland, where Bert became a top salesman for the Electrolux vaccum cleaner company. Buoyed by his success, he went onto to form a carpet cleaning business and then later on pest control. At this stage his first son John was born and his family had grown.

Pest Free Services was a rapidly growing business that kept the family in a good lifestyle. Around this time he attended a Dale Carnegie course, which was to inspire him to run similar courses – often encompassing psychotherapy for clients in need of more personal advice.

Following the arrival of their daughter Anne, the Potters adopted another girl - Karen, and four years later the adoption of a further child named Ross grew the family to 6.

After the unexpected death of his boss, Bert decided to change his lifestyle once again. Interested in human psychology, he attended the Esalen growth centre in California for three months. Upon returning to New Zealand he gave up his business and decided to pursue a career in therapy. This led him to Dunedin and the setting up of the ‘Shoreline Human Awareness Trust’. What Bert termed “encounter groups” met at his home for nine-day sessions which lasted 11 hours each day. During this period, Bert’s marriage came to an end and his wife filed for divorce. Bert’s groups were ‘delving into different behaviors’ and Bert’s wife’s stated reason for their separation was that she did not believe in his new path.

Bert, after selling his home and business, moved into Gillies Ave, Epsom, Auckland along with a group of people with like-minded attitudes. This group went on to later form what we know today as the Centrepoint Community.

Around this time Bert made a journey to India to meet a renowned guru named Rajneesh. During this time his plans for a self-supporting community were being formed and on his return he held meetings on Tuesday nights to promote his concepts. Many found the idea appealing and after pooling their funds started looking for suitable land where the community could be founded. Finally in 1977 Bert put down a deposit for a 30-acre block of bushland near Albany, Auckland. They applied with the local council for permission to start a community on the above-mentioned land and Centrepoint became a reality.

CENTREPOINT BEGINNINGS
A small farmhouse on the land was the first abode for the founders of Centrepoint and other families and singles camped in tents nearby. The initial months, with members adjusting to communal living, weren’t without problems. Plumbing, sewerage and living accommodations all had to keep growing to meet the community’s needs and lack of funds due to members leaving paid employment meant that the group had to set up a pocket money system where each member was given a weekly allowance.
All personal property became the community’s when anyone joined and often the greatest source of revenue was from new members liquidated assets. Meetings were held once a week and these often led to therapy sessions as members fronted with their feelings. Around this time the first child was born at Centrepoint in what was to become a regular occurrence of communal births. All members were asked to attend and support the mother as she gave birth.

A child crèche was established on the land and older children attended the local school.
People seeking this alternative lifestyle came and those finding it difficult went, while Bert encouraged the devotees to express whatever they felt - both emotionally and sexually. There was a freedom of choice and many couples found the greatest test in having an open relationship where sexual experimentation with other partners was encouraged. Communal counseling was a large part of Bert’s philosophy and many found themselves revealing all their hidden secrets. In 1978 the Takapuna City Council denied the Centrepoint community the right to live on the land, and so began the first legal battle over the right of members to live as they had chosen.

CENTREPOINT BATTLES OVER THE LAND
The appeal the community had lodged against the Council’s decision allowed them time to begin implementing plans for developing the site. However before they could legally construct any more buildings, permits were required - which were not forthcoming. At the planning tribunal conditional use of the land was granted, with the building permits now free to be issued. The tribunal stated that only sixty people were permitted to reside at Centrepoint, which at the time already had 58 residents. In effect this denied the residents the right to any further children or to marry outside the community unless they left.

CENTREPOINT GROWS
Centrepoint continued to grow far beyond the specified number set by the tribunal. During this time members started living in car crates on the land and the original farmhouse was raised to build a main lounge underneath.

A spate of births occurred and the commune found it required a full time nursery so in 1979 a crèche was started with everyone taking turns looking after the young children. Marriage also was becoming popular. Some members worked outside Centrepoint and the money provided from their wages was used to keep the bills paid. Finally Centrepoint broke even in 1981 and longhouses were built to house up to 25 people and children. These consisted of a long room where members slept side by side.
A film was made in 1980 by Television New Zealand called ‘Centrepoint - A Spiritual Growth Community’. This caused great controversy and most New Zealanders watching feared a cult was forming in their midst. Shortly after this a Centrepoint member committed suicide on the property - overdosing on valium and a curare derivative stolen from her workplace at Auckland Hospital. Following the trail of bad publicity, Bert organised speaking engagements and appointed a public relations officer to project the right image for the community.

THE LEGAL BATTLE CONTINUES
In April 1981, Centrepoint applied to increase its allowable numbers for people living there to 300. Although they were confident in relying on their status as a religious community to help pave the way, this was not too be. The Council received many objections including sworn testimony by an ex-member regarding the sexual practices within the community – including allegations of child sexual abuse. The Council in November of the same year turned down the application telling members they were not seen as a religious organisation. After this, two of the founding members, disillusioned, decided to leave - and many followed. One had been one of the therapists for the group who set up her own group soon afterwards. Bert reapplied to the Council which bought them more time, but in the end the outcome was still the same and they were once again denied the right to house more people.

In October 1983 an amendment bill was passed through Parliament resulting in Centre Bert is quoted as saying “Every belief is a block to growth and must be questioned”. point being fined $10,000 a day for violation of the limit of people legally allowed to live there. The council threatened to enact this - forcing the Centrepoint members to rent two factories in Glenfield, which they moved into to all stay together. In December, the owner of the property obtained an injunction to evict them from his property effectively rendering the group homeless. A marae was offered over the Christmas period and they moved in with a promise to be out by New Year. This started a period of living in buses and renting two houses from a gentleman believing in their freedom of living arrangements. They were duly forced to move out of these houses too - once the Council threatened to sue the owner of the houses for allowing the community to live there in illegal co-habitation. Later they found a barn to live in and launched a peaceful protest. Once again they were moved on from their own form of communal living in the barn by local authorities.

On June 19th 1985, after a series of long legal battles, Centrepoint was granted the right to have 224 members live at the commune in Albany - with a special landuse designation ending the squabbles about whether the community should obey the law relating to boarding houses or the law relating to hospitals.

CENTREPOINT BELIEFS
Centrepoint was seen as a spiritual community by its members and was led by its guru, Bert Potter. The predominate principle is to liberate people by challenging them to experience everyday issues in different ways. This was evident in the open sexual practices within the community – with encounter groups meant to strip members of their vulnerability and allow them to open themselves to other members. This was done in intense seven-day sessions often with little sleep - the belief being that after these groups members would feel completely in touch with themselves. In order to achieve this it was taught that you had to surrender yourself completely to the process.

Bert Potter believed he was a god and all of us are gods to ourselves. Bert is quoted as saying “Every belief is a block to growth and must be questioned”. It was also said that to live at Centrepoint you had to live in Bert’s way and let go of your own power to shape and form your destiny.

Centrepoint had a minimal use for rituals with a couple of spiritual meetings each week at which Bert would give a talk on anything that he felt was right at the time. He would encourage members to open up about any resentment to other members.

Bert’s beliefs were influenced by what was out in the spiritual marketplace at the time. He would study new forms of therapy and experiment by applying these to his groups. Centrepoint also ran a therapy centre in the Auckland city centre at this time, more conventional in its approach to clients.

Bert used to give his members tasks to emotionally free themselves. One such reported task was a woman who believed she was unattractive to the opposite sex and so was told by Bert to sleep with every man in the Centrepoint community before Christmas day. Ex-members say this was merely a suggestion from Bert and was up to the individual member whether they did it or not, however because of his position many argue that a suggestion from Bert held more weight, becoming a direction from the revered guru. Family groups were also held to help with any family problems. Children were allocated a member of the community to talk to, and had to choose someone that was not a family member. However the benefits of this are highly speculative due to later behavior made public.

OPPONENTS TO CENTREPOINT
Early opponents of Centrepoint pointed to the danger of people joining a community where their lives were controlled by Bert Potter – a self confessed guru. It upset a lot of established religious groups offending them as they felt that no one had the right to take on the status or mantle of god. Many rumors of free sexual favors and child abuse were whispered in the early days – which later would unfortunately prove to be valid fears. Bert is quoted as saying “I believe children should be allowed to grow up from birth through to adolescence having sexual experiences appropriate to their own level”. This statement is, in itself, an omen of what was to come and the next ten years of Centrepoint were to see six members prosecuted for child sexual abuse.

So ends a brief history of the first ten years of Centrepoint - an interesting pre-cursor to what was to come.

CENTREPOINT – ALLEGATIONS & CONVICTIONS
Bert Potter was convicted on drug charges on Anzac Day 1990 in the Auckland High Court and sentenced to three and a half years jail. Charges came after a search of Potter’s home in the Centrepoint community yielded LSD and Ecstasy. Potter prior to this had always appeared to be a crusader against the use of drugs, and this was to lead on to more serious allegations being made regarding him having sex with minors within the confines of the community he ran.

In 1991 Centrepoint was again the site of a police dawn raid, this time leading to the arrest of six men and two women on indecent assault and rape charges spanning the period between 1978 and 1984. Centrepoint had experienced large growth in membership just prior to the arrests, and the trials in the Auckland High Court concluded with members of Centrepoint convicted and facing prison terms.

The convicted men were:
(all ages are stated as at the time of being found guilty on the associated charges)

Bert Potter, aged 67, charged and convicted of indecently assaulting five minors. His victims were as young as 3 and a half years old. He was sentenced to seven and a half years in prison in November 1992.

Keith McKenzie, aged 71, charged and convicted of indecently assaulting a minor. He was fined $2,500 and later struck off the medical register, as he was a registered doctor at the time.

David Mendelssohn, aged 48, charged and convicted of indecently assaulting three minors. He was sentenced to four years in prison.

Ulrich Schmid, aged 52, charged and convicted of sexually assaulting two minors. He was sentenced to one year in prison after a retrial.

Richard Parker, aged 45, charged and convicted of attempting to rape a minor. Sentenced to four years and five months in jail.

Henry Stonex, 51, guilty of indecently assaulting a minor. Sentenced to nine months jail.

A later conviction followed as victims told their stories, years after the events took place.

Kenneth Smith, 75, charged and convicted of indecently assaulting two minors. Sentenced to 200 hours community service and had to pay damages to each minor of $1,500. January 1995 – North Shore District Court.

All the names of the children involved and their testimonies were suppressed. The victims came together in March 1990 to make their complaints following a meeting organized by one of those subjected to the abuse. In 1998, in reaction to police confiscating computer equipment from Centrepoint after finding pornography stored in it’s database, Sarah Smuts-Kennedy (NZ actress with a high profile) voluntarily spoke out about the abuse she had suffered at the hands of Bert Potter. She is concerned that the community is still operating and the same thing could happen to children again.

CENTREPOINT TODAY
Centrepoint is still located in Albany, Auckland. It is reported that its members are now two very separate factions: One group still believing in the spiritual leader, Bert Potter, and awaiting his return following his release from prison in March 1999. A government report in 1997 found that Potter still appears to be controlling the community from his jail cell. The second group wants change and the abolishment of the rules that anyone entering the community must give up all their assets to Centrepoint.

Centrepoint has now been placed in the hands of the Public Trust Office due to the Centrepoint Community Growth Trust being heavily in debt and without any income. The land, which is owned by the Centrepoint trust is valued at $10 to $20 million, but feuding between the members have led to no clear way of paying their debts and progressing. Former members are now asking for their contributions of money and assets they made to the community back.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:37:28 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Sure
Message:
If anyone believes they have grounds to sue, they can afford it, they can deal with the hassle, and they have legal representation, then by all means, I would tell them to sue. Personally, I don't believe I have any of that.

You know, the courts are usually a pretty miserable way to try to resolve things. I would rather spend my time letting people know the whole story about Maharaji, so they don't get damaged in the first place.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:50:52 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Let's consider this seriously
Message:
As for the tobacco class action, lawyers got paid after the settlement, as with large sums. The point of a class action is to raise awareness, not money. M might not be put out of business, but his credibility would be destroyed.

As for attacking religious entitities, it happens with some frequency. What parent wouldn't want to sue Heaven's Gate leaders, if they were alive? How about Rajnish? PTL?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 23:59:13 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Tabacco Lawsuits
Message:
They were not class actions, mostly, except for the flight attendants.

The lawsuits were actually by STATES to recover medicaid payments for people who had medical problems due to cigarettes, and the lawyers did take those cases on CONTINGENT fee, and because they settled so early, they made a FORTUNE.

If you want to have a class action to 'raise awareness' you aren't going to get lawyer to take it unless you pay by the hour, and who has that kind of money?

But if people want to sue, by all means do it.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 11:56:54 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Tabacco Lawsuits
Message:
You're probably wrong, as I indicated ini previous posts, a class action would do more to raise awareness than raise money. If Rosenblatt takes the case, it would have to be on a contingent basis. But then any settlement would prevent ex-premies from suing again. And the lawyer would have a giant take in the settlement. But my intuition tells me a class action has more media appeal than an individual suit, which is beneficial to debunking M's empire. There already have been individual cases, as stated on EPO, but these were settled out of court for undisclosed sums.

If people want to sue, that's a hard decision. Finding a lawyer wouldn't be difficult, but finding the courage within would be the hardest part. It would take considerable inner strength for an ex-premie to testify before a grand jury that she/he was manipulated into the indoctrination process by sophisticated 'soft-sell' mind control techniques.

The flight attendant's victory is the perfect example of how a group organized around each other, fought a powerful entity, and won.

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:30:38 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Go for it (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 14:43:56 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: One more thing..
Message:
Anybody who sues, be sure to give notice to everyone of Maharaji's deposition. I would pay money to go wherever to watch that particular spectacle. :)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:01:48 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Rasheesh spawned cult sued by ex followers
Message:
see my post above
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:13:26 (EST)
From: The Premie's Creed
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji is the Giver
Message:
'Knowledge is simply a way to go inside. It has to be a gift from one being to another being, from the Master to the student.'
-Maharaji, Oct, 2000

What Maharaji has to offer is a practical way to go inside and experience the beauty and joy of the heart. Everyone is welcomed to receive this gift. All a person has to do is accept Maharaji as the giver:

'Without my Master's birthday, there would not be the treasure chest of my sweet heart.' -Stojan Svet, ELK expression, Dec. 2001.

'I marvel at the Master's gift.' -Mg Hermann, ELK, Dec. 2001

'...the happiness which has been revealed to me by Maharaji and his truely wonderful gift of Knowledge.' -David Coleman, ELK, Dec. 2001

'Without the gift of Knowledge and Maharaji's wisdom, I would have been lost.' -Jim Sakshaug, ELK expression, 2001

'Without the care of the Master, the garden would no longer be a garden.' -Carole Jones, ELK expression, 2001

'I need to know myself and for that I need my Master.' -Kerry Lloyd, ELK expression, 2001

'I have not received the techniques of Knowledge yet, but I don't know where I would be if I had not found Maharaji's love and the possibility of the gift of Knowledge in this life.' -Jenny Hill, ELK expression 2001

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 18:03:24 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: The Premie's Creed
Subject: Premie Creed: Ignore Information
Message:
Jim quoted an entry on Enjoyinglife.Org from a premie that so clearly demonstrates cult programming and mind control that we couldn't have said it better right here:

WHY?
One day as I was surfing the Elan Vital website I accidentally went into this strange 'Ex-Premie – website'. I 'm really glad I came to this after I had been practising Knowledge for many years otherwise what they had written would have confused me. I can see all the effort they have put into their work and all the information, organised and documented so well, seems professional and impressive. Anyone can be so easily misled by all the information!

Yes, information and facts can confuse you, can't they? So, the premie solution is to ignore them, and be afraid of them. This premie is just so relieved that she has been indoctrinated enough so that acutual facts could be ignored.

Such a wonderful testament to where everyone should aspire. A premie can tell they are progressing on the path of knowledge if they can look at actual information that is contrary to what they believe, ignore it completely and continue on without being 'misled.' No concern about whether the information is correct or not, just that it causes confusion. Wow.

Thanks for Enjoyinglife for printing this. Textbook cult/think and cult/talk.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:29:13 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: The Premie's Creed
Subject: oh, just some massa-kiss
Message:
i.e. massa-kiss-m. [masochism]

i.e. fluffy, lobotomized Massa kiss-asses

these leashed puppies actually enjoy being submissive and dominated by a Massa - and they confuse their own lifeforce and some simple universal perceptions and public domain yoga techs with a contrived false necessity for submission to a materialist massa individual and an in-cult-cated conceptual mirage.

p.s. if they want to give credit or gratitude to anything from their meditation experience, then it should be to their own sincerity and to the universal life-force-source itself -- and not be thankful of any false subjugation to an interposed, indoctrinating, engulfing miragey idol cult [sic cash machine].

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:59:29 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: All
Subject: bin laden tape: a chilling cult classic
Message:
Transcript of Osama bin Laden videotape

December 13, 2001 Posted: 2:25 PM EST (1925 GMT)
The following transcript of a videotape of Osama bin Laden talking with others, translated from Arabic into English, was issued by the U.S. Department of Defense. CNN spells the al Qaeda leader's name Osama bin Laden, but the Defense Department spelling -- Usama bin Laden -- is retained. He is identified as UBL in the transcript.

(Transcript and annotations independently prepared by George Michael, translator, Diplomatic Language Services; and Dr. Kassem M. Wahba, Arabic language program coordinator, School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University. They collaborated on their translation and compared it with translations done by the U.S. government for consistency. There were no inconsistencies in the translations.)
In mid-November, Usama Bin Laden spoke to a room of supporters, possibly in Qandahar, Afghanistan. These comments were videotaped with the knowledge of bin Laden and all present.

Note: The tape is approximately one hour long and contains three different segments: an original taping of a visit by some people to the site of the downed U.S. helicopter in Ghazni province (approximately 12 minutes long); and two segments documenting a courtesy visit by bin Laden and his lieutenants to an unidentified Shaykh, who appears crippled from the waist down. The visit apparently takes place at a guesthouse in Qandahar. The sequence of the events is reversed on the tape -- the end of his visit is in the beginning of the tape with the helicopter site visit in the middle and the start of the Usama bin Laden visit beginning approximately 39 minutes into the tape. The tape is transcribed below according to the proper sequence of events.

Due to the quality of the original tape, it is NOT a verbatim transcript of every word spoken during the meeting, but does convey the messages and information flow.
EDITOR'S NOTE: 39 minutes into tape, first segment of the bin Laden meeting, begins after footage of helicopter site visit

Shaykh: (...inaudible...) You have given us weapons, you have given us hope and we thank Allah for you. We don't want to take much of your time, but this is the arrangement of the brothers. People now are supporting us more, even those ones who did not support us in the past, support us more now. I did not want to take that much of your time. We praise Allah, we praise Allah. We came from Kabul. We were very pleased to visit. May Allah bless you both at home and the camp. We asked the driver to take us, it was a night with a full moon, thanks be to Allah. Believe me it is not in the country side. The elderly...everybody praises what you did, the great action you did, which was first and foremost by the grace of Allah. This is the guidance of Allah and the blessed fruit of jihad.

UBL: Thanks to Allah. What is the stand of the Mosques there (in Saudi Arabia)?

Shaykh: Honestly, they are very positive. Shaykh Al-Bahrani (phonetic) gave a good sermon in his class after the sunset prayers. It was videotaped and I was supposed to carry it with me, but unfortunately, I had to leave immediately.

UBL: The day of the events?
Shaykh: At the exact time of the attack on America, precisely at the time. He (Bahrani) gave a very impressive sermon. Thanks be to Allah for his blessings. He (Bahrani) was the first one to write at war time. I visited him twice in Al-Qasim.

UBL: Thanks be to Allah.

Shaykh: This is what I asked from Allah. He (Bahrani) told the youth: 'You are asking for martyrdom and wonder where you should go (for martyrdom)?' Allah was inciting them to go. I asked Allah to grant me to witness the truth in front of the unjust ruler. We ask Allah to protect him and give him the martyrdom, after he issued the first fatwa. He was detained for interrogation, as you know. When he was called in and asked to sign, he told them, 'don't waste my time, I have another fatwa. If you want me, I can sign both at the same time.'

UBL: Thanks be to Allah.

Shaykh: His position is really very encouraging. When I paid him the first visit about a year and half ago, he asked me, 'How is Shaykh Bin-Ladin?' He sends you his special regards. As far as Shaykh Sulayman 'Ulwan is concerned, he gave a beautiful fatwa, may Allah bless him. Miraculously, I heard it on the Quran radio station. It was strange because he ('Ulwan) sacrificed his position, which is equivalent to a director. It was transcribed word-by-word. The brothers listened to it in detail. I briefly heard it before the noon prayers. He ('Ulwan) said this was jihad and those people were not innocent people (World Trade Center and Pentagon victims). He swore to Allah. This was transmitted to Shaykh Sulayman Al (('Umar)) Allah bless him.

UBL: What about Shaykh Al-((Rayan))?

Shaykh: Honestly, I did not meet with him. My movements were truly limited.

UBL: Allah bless you. You are welcome.

Shaykh: (Describing the trip to the meeting) They smuggled us and then I thought that we would be in different caves inside the mountains so I was surprised at the guest house and that it is very clean and comfortable. Thanks be to Allah, we also learned that this location is safe, by Allah's blessings. The place is clean and we are very comfortable.

UBL: (...Inaudible...) when people see a strong horse and a weak horse, by nature, they will like the strong horse. This is only one goal; those who want people to worship the lord of the people, without following that doctrine, will be following the doctrine of Muhammad, peace be upon him. (UBL quotes several short and incomplete Hadith verses, as follows): 'I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Muhammad.' 'Some people may ask: why do you want to fight us?' 'There is an association between those who say: I believe in one god and Muhammad is his prophet, and those who don't (...inaudible...) 'Those who do not follow the true fiqh. The fiqh of Muhammad, the real fiqh. They are just accepting what is being said at face value.'

UBL: Those youth who conducted the operations did not accept any fiqh in the popular terms, but they accepted the fiqh that the prophet Muhammad brought. Those young men (...inaudible...) said in deeds, in New York and Washington, speeches that overshadowed all other speeches made everywhere else in the world. The speeches are understood by both Arabs and non-Arabs-even by Chinese. It is above all the media said. Some of them said that in Holland, at one of the centers, the number of people who accepted Islam during the days that followed the operations were more than the people who accepted Islam in the last eleven years. I heard someone on Islamic radio who owns a school in America say: 'We don't have time to keep up with the demands of those who are asking about Islamic books to learn about Islam.' This event made people think (about true Islam) which benefited Islam greatly.

Shaykh: Hundreds of people used to doubt you and few only would follow you until this huge event happened. Now hundreds of people are coming out to join you. I remember a vision by Shaykh Salih Al-((Shuaybi)). He said: 'There will be a great hit and people will go out by hundreds to Afghanistan.' I asked him (Salih): 'To Afghanistan?' He replied, 'Yes.' According to him, the only ones who stay behind will be the mentally impotent and the liars (hypocrites). I remembered his saying that hundreds of people will go out to Afghanistan. He had this vision a year ago. This event discriminated between the different types of followers.

UBL: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.
Shaykh: Allah be praised.

UBL: We were at (...inaudible...) when the event took place. We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work that day and had the radio on. It was 5:30 p.m. our time. I was sitting with Dr. Ahmad Abu-al-((Khair)). Immediately, we heard the news that a plane had hit the World Trade Center. We turned the radio station to the news from Washington. The news continued and no mention of the attack until the end. At the end of the newscast, they reported that a plane just hit the World Trade Center.
Shaykh: Allah be praised.

UBL: After a little while, they announced that another plane had hit the World Trade Center. The brothers who heard the news were overjoyed by it.

Shaykh: I listened to the news and I was sitting. We didn't...we were not thinking about anything, and all of a sudden, Allah willing, we were talking about how come we didn't have anything, and all of a sudden the news came and everyone was overjoyed and everyone until the next day, in the morning, was talking about what was happening and we stayed until four o'clock, listening to the news every time a little bit different, everyone was very joyous and saying 'Allah is great,' 'Allah is great,' 'We are thankful to Allah,' 'Praise Allah.' And I was happy for the happiness of my brothers. That day the congratulations were coming on the phone non-stop. The mother was receiving phone calls continuously. Thank Allah. Allah is great, praise be to Allah. (Quoting the verse from the Quran)

Shaykh: 'Fight them, Allah will torture them, with your hands, he will torture them. He will deceive them and he will give you victory. Allah will forgive the believers, he is knowledgeable about everything.'

Shaykh: No doubt it is a clear victory. Allah has bestowed on us...honor on us...and he will give us blessing and more victory during this holy month of Ramadan. And this is what everyone is hoping for. Thank Allah America came out of its caves. We hit her the first hit and the next one will hit her with the hands of the believers, the good believers, the strong believers. By Allah it is a great work. Allah prepares for you a great reward for this work. I'm sorry to speak in your presence, but it is just thoughts, just thoughts. By Allah, who there is no god but him. I live in happiness, happiness...I have not experienced, or felt, in a long time. I remember, the words of Al-Rabbani, he said they made a coalition against us in the winter with the infidels like the Turks, and others, and some other Arabs. And they surrounded us like the days...in the days of the prophet Muhammad. Exactly like what's happening right now. But he comforted his followers and said, 'This is going to turn and hit them back.' And it is a mercy for us. And a blessing to us. And it will bring people back. Look how wise he was. And Allah will give him blessing. And the day will come when the symbols of Islam will rise up and it will be similar to the early days of Al-Mujahedeen and Al-Ansar (similar to the early years of Islam). And victory to those who follow Allah. Finally said, if it is the same, like the old days, such as Abu Bakr and Othman and Ali and others. In these days, in our times, that it will be the greatest jihad in the history of Islam and the resistance of the wicked people.

Shaykh: By Allah my Shaykh. We congratulate you for the great work. Thank Allah.

Tape ends here
Second segment of Bin Laden's visit, shows up at the front of the tape

UBL: Abdallah Azzam, Allah bless his soul, told me not to record anything (...inaudible...) so I thought that was a good omen, and Allah will bless us (...inaudible...). Abu-Al-Hasan Al-((Masri)), who appeared on Al-Jazeera TV a couple of days ago and addressed the Americans saying: 'If you are true men, come down here and face us.' (...inaudible...) He told me a year ago: 'I saw in a dream, we were playing a soccer game against the Americans. When our team showed up in the field, they were all pilots!' He said: 'So I wondered if that was a soccer game or a pilot game? Our players were pilots.' He (Abu-Al-Hasan) didn't know anything about the operation until he heard it on the radio. He said the game went on and we defeated them. That was a good omen for us.

Shaykh: May Allah be blessed.

Unidentified Man Off Camera: Abd Al Rahman Al-(Ghamri) said he saw a vision, before the operation, a plane crashed into a tall building. He knew nothing about it.

Shaykh: May Allah be blessed!

Sulayman ((Abu Guaith)): I was sitting with the Shaykh in a room, then I left to go to another room where there was a TV set. The TV broadcasted the big event. The scene was showing an Egyptian family sitting in their living room, they exploded with joy. Do you know when there is a soccer game and your team wins, it was the same expression of joy. There was a subtitle that read: 'In revenge for the children of Al Aqsa', Usama Bin Ladin executes an operation against America.' So I went back to the Shaykh (meaning UBL) who was sitting in a room with 50 to 60 people. I tried to tell him about what I saw, but he made gesture with his hands, meaning: 'I know, I know…'

UBL: He did not know about the operation. Not everybody knew (...inaudible...). Muhammad ((Atta)) from the Egyptian family (meaning the Al Qa'ida Egyptian group), was in charge of the group.

Shaykh: A plane crashing into a tall building was out of anyone's imagination. This was a great job. He was one of the pious men in the organization. He became a martyr. Allah bless his soul.

Shaykh (Referring to dreams and visions): The plane that he saw crashing into the building was seen before by more than one person. One of the good religious people has left everything and come here. He told me, 'I saw a vision, I was in a huge plane, long and wide. I was carrying it on my shoulders and I walked from the road to the desert for half a kilometer. I was dragging the plane.' I listened to him and I prayed to Allah to help him. Another person told me that last year he saw, but I didn't understand and I told him I don't understand. He said, 'I saw people who left for jihad...and they found themselves in New York...in Washington and New York.' I said, 'What is this?' He told me the plane hit the building. That was last year. We haven't thought much about it. But, when the incidents happened he came to me and said, 'Did you see...this is strange.' I have another man...my god...he said and swore by Allah that his wife had seen the incident a week earlier. She saw the plane crashing into a building...that was unbelievable, my god.

UBL: The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.

UBL: (...inaudible...) then he said: Those who were trained to fly didn't know the others. One group of people did not know the other group. (...inaudible...) (Someone in the crowd asks UBL to tell the Shaykh about the dream of ((Abu-Da'ud)).

UBL: We were at a camp of one of the brother's guards in Qandahar. This brother belonged to the majority of the group. He came close and told me that he saw, in a dream, a tall building in America, and in the same dream he saw Mukhtar teaching them how to play karate. At that point, I was worried that maybe the secret would be revealed if everyone starts seeing it in their dream. So I closed the subject. I told him if he sees another dream, not to tell anybody, because people will be upset with him. (Another person's voice can be heard recounting his dream about two planes hitting a big building).

UBL: They were overjoyed when the first plane hit the building, so I said to them: be patient.

UBL: The difference between the first and the second plane hitting the towers was twenty minutes. And the difference between the first plane and the plane that hit the Pentagon was one hour.

Shaykh: They (the Americans) were terrified thinking there was a coup. [Note: Ayman Al-Zawahri says first he commended UBL's awareness of what the media is saying. Then he says it was the first time for them (Americans) to feel danger coming at them.] UBL (reciting a poem): I witness that against the sharp blade They always faced difficulties and stood together... When the darkness comes upon us and we are bit by a Sharp tooth, I say... 'Our homes are flooded with blood and the tyrant Is freely wandering in our homes'... And from the battlefield vanished The brightness of swords and the horses... And over weeping sounds now We hear the beats of drums and rhythm… They are storming his forts And shouting: 'We will not stop our raids Until you free our lands'...

Bin Laden visit footage complete. Footage of the visit to the helicopter site follows the poem.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:23:40 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: such
Subject: what video shows vs. transcript
Message:
what the videotape shows [vs. just a transcript}:

is bin laden smirking while he takes about the murders, and then he and the others laughing, and then picking at food and licking their fingers...

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 08:08:56 (EST)
From: Victory
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji has been neutralized
Message:
Because of the presence of this forum, EPO and other sites, Maharaji will never again be capable of spreading his virus en masse as he did in the early/mid 70's. The Honorable Shri Raja Ji is wrong about Maha completing his mission unless the true nature of the mission was to become wealthy.

The only real success M had in recruiting came when just about anyone could show up and in a matter of days or weeks they could be initiated into the cult. Most left soon thereafter. Most of the ones who stayed gradually drifted away.

The few who remain do so because they bought the song we were programmed with......

'leaving your lotus feet, oh where oh where would I go?'

Actually, it may be true that M knew long ago that he could no longer expand his membership and all his actions for the past 10-15 years have been calculated to hold his current group of giver$$$.

The mass K sessions in India are no more than an attempt to mask this fact.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 10:43:19 (EST)
From: and one more thing
Email: None
To: Victory
Subject: if only he'd been neutered
Message:
one can only feel very very sorry for his children-as bad as their behavior has been, one can only imagine how much more they will act out as they progress into their adulthood. They have to realize that their dad chose to be the only living REP of God rather than provide them with the opportunity to grow up as normal children. They must also realize Mom went along with the scam.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:22:47 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: and one more thing
Subject: Maharaji's Children.....
Message:
I have heard some suggest that Maharaji's children, who some people say most definitely do NOT see him as God, might change him, or perhaps have already done so to a degree. But some of the behavior of his children I find very perplexing.

For example, Daya, who is M's daughter, and one would assume sees her father's profession as that of a meditation instructor who gives 'inspirational' speeches, has now become a regular part of the show that goes on at "events" and sometimes sings extremely devotional songs that clearly describe her father as a deity. Since she is singing to her father, it's just a bit weird, especially because the video I saw shows Daya dressed like a provocative lounge singer.

I saw her singing on the tape of a Long Beach program, asking that Maharaji 'please, please, please teach [her] devotion,' that her father is 'pure' and 'his love is deeper than the ocean,' and she also sang a song talking about 'lila' and that it 'had just begun.'

So this is very confusing. Does Daya think her dear old Dad is divine, or is she just carrying out an act as part of the family business? I understand that both Daya and Premlata are employed by Visions, and also being part of the family they have financial incentives to perpetuate the beliefs in Maharaji as divine, because that likely increases sales and donations.

Any ideas about the motivations and beliefs here? Anyone have interraction with the kids?

From what I have heard about Amaroo, the kids drink quite a lot, and hang out with Euro-type jet-set friends. I'm not surprised, and I'm sure they have extremely privileged lives.

I wonder if they ever think about the sacrifices others made in their own lives, around the time they were the same age (like giving up education, careers, etc.), so they could have the kind of luxurious lives they now have, what with growing up with servants, and almost unlimited funds.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:23:05 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'd like to be a fly on the wall...
Message:
Hi Joe,

Some excellent points. I also saw that video of Daya singing to Maharaji. The dress she had on gave me that 'icky' feeling...singing to her bio-dad, god-in-a-bod.

Another video/satellite feed had Premlata singing with I think some members of One Foundation, also with Daya.

I have a feeling that these kids are clueless about earning money, where the money they have comes from, and if they do think of less fortunate premies (financially) they probably just ''put it out of their mind.''

I do wonder about this, though. Have they also inherited their father's narcissism? I hope not. Yet I am not surprised that they have been known to drink a lot. It's inevitable, given their dad's history with the booze/drugs.

Then there's Monica thing. What message has m sent to his girls and boys about marriage with his extra-marital affairs?

Maharaji and Marolyn are terrible parents in my opinon. Just awful.

Cynthia

P.S. Where's the tape Joe?????

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:29:23 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: It's in the mail.....
Message:
Don't be such a yenta! :)) Actually, I'll mail it on Saturday.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:39:19 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Joe :):)... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:54:57 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Children.....
Message:
From what I saw in Miami, Daya is a talented singer. For me, her music was by far the best part of the event, but in comparison to M's drivel, anything would appear good. Surprisingly, the songs were all of a devotional nature to her father. But, who knows if she writes them or just performs them.

It seems like the family has a nice shtick going on...reminiscent of the days of vaudeville. Daughter sings, father talks, son(s) show video. Its a profitable family business, not unlike the Partridge Family, only their selling mind-controlling, new age meditation techniques. And from what I saw, people cry and beg for more.

I am also interested in the kids, since believers expect one of them to take over the biz eventually. Also, at the event, as a prelude to M's Sunday talk, one of three devotees was a self-proclaimed 'second generation believer.' He was in his late twenties.

My opinion is that the kids won't care about from where their money originated. But, if people really cared about it, why not sue M? The case reminds me of the recent cases of Holocaust survivors who sued German companies for their forced labor during WWII. If ex-premies could prove certain aspects, like M using mind-controlling devices and other cult aspects that were in effect, not only would ex-premies be entitled to their lost wages, but also would have a stake in the present corporate holdings.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 13:27:16 (EST)
From: LA mole
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Children.....
Message:
Three of M's children and their dates attended a 50th birthday party for premie drummer Ron Margolis in LA recently. Daya entertained the gathering with songs. Don't know for sure who the other two were but I would guess it was Premlata and Hans. Either they are hanging out like normal kids or creating their own devotional network of PAMK (People Around Maharaji's Kids).

LA Mole

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:58:29 (EST)
From: Wadi Sue
Email: None
To: LA mole
Subject: It's not like you think....
Message:
I don't know why I didn't get invited to that party. Seems like I am always getting the shaft around here. See, I do all the work and Daya gets all the attention -- wearing those slinky dresses and hanging on her eurotrash boyfriend. She makes me sick. She's almost as bad as that bitch Monica who is always hanging around.

You think I have it easy, but you are very wrong. After Daddy gave me the Mercedes, then I needed a BMW sportscar to back that up, then a Bentley to back that up, then one of those cute Ferraris to back that up. It was SO HARD. And I just don't know what I will get for my NEXT birthday and it isn't until MARCH, just ages away. It's not easy. It's not how it looks.

And it's not easy growing up with servants, tutors, private planes and all that. Do you think it was FUN when Daddy hawled us out on those stages in front of thousands of people? Well, maybe a little fun, but I think premies are a drag, for the most part. They are dirty and lame and there are terrified of Daddy for days!! It's pathetic. That's why I only hang out with the kids of the rich European premies. The Americans and Australians are just so pedestrian and the Europeans have better booze.

I think for my NEXT birthday, I'll tell Daddy I need a nose and boob job, and also a butt reduction and liposuction. Then maybe I can fit into one of those slinky, low cut dresses Daya wears at events when singing love songs to Daddy. He always liked her best!

Well, I'm off for drinks at the Jockey Club, with the WASPs of Malibu, you know, the ones who have this propensity to call each other names of the seven dwarfs, like Binky, Dinky, Woozie and CeeCee. They sure can put it away though. Ta ta!

And to you ex-premies bitching about giving all your money to Daddy, well, thanks, we are putting it to good use, and if you need more money, just buy some! What is the problem?
Why can't you be like me and be enjoyinglifewithknowledge and lotsacash. Grin.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:19:24 (EST)
From: Another Mole
Email: None
To: Wadi Sue
Subject: Hey Wadi
Message:
Is it true that your sister Daya was scheduled to be involved
as a facilitator at one of the super dooper trainings with your Dad, but freaked out and wouldn't do it when she saw how heavy it got?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 13:19:04 (EST)
From: re: 2nd Generation
Email: None
To: jonathan
Subject: cult members of M
Message:
There are very, very few. Most of the parents would tell you(if they would really talk about it)that there kid-now mostly young adults like M but just aren't ready yet. I overheard two teenager 2nds making fun of M when they thought know one else was listening.

The fact that these 2nds didn't receive K tells much. Many were ignored as children because their parents put the Maha first...kinda like how alcoholics ignore their children. An objective study of what really happened to these 2nds would be fascinating.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:43:03 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: re: 2nd Generation
Subject: agreed
Message:
My kids and those of one of the more fanatical 'sisters' I knew want nothing to do with M. I didn't see a lot of people under - 30 (ok 35 not?) or so at the last thingy I went to in late nineties.
I agree with Cynthia M and M were lousy parents and who knows what their kids could be thinking?
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:17:45 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: re: 2nd Generation
Subject: Re: cult members of M
Message:
I know a couple of second generation premies who have knowledge but most have rejected it all and do feel that Maharaji's demands on their parents were detrimental and robbed them of a normal and secure childhood. One of my brothers got Knowledge but it was more out of curiosity to find out the big secret and he has nothing to do with Rawat and thinks it is very creepy really. Another was never interested and found the videos and music and the whole sales pitch cheesy in the extreme. A couple of women I know who grew up with premie parents are pretty angry about the cult and the way it forced itself between them and their parents and for good reason of course. Rawat demanded total mental, emotional and physical slavery from his followers in the early days. Many have been damaged by that. Some have an unconscious relationship to it all. Years ago I visited an old friend who hadn't really delt with it and we talked all night about how strange it had been. She brought out a photo of Rawat and I tore it up in front of her and we laughed our heads off and burnt it. It was a wonderful moment of liberation. I showed another the techniques via the internet and he was disgusted at the tongue thing and thought it was all very odd. Mostly though, I think Rawat is just seen as a con artist of the very worse sort and there is a general amazement that anyone could have fallen for it.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:47:20 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: You are so cute :)
Message:
I love this witchy ritual.

She brought out a photo of Rawat and I tore it up in front of her and we laughed our heads off and burnt it.

Good for you. That amused me.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:08:32 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Oh no! This is SOOOOOOO pathetic!
Message:
From ELK. Honestly, this is not a Nabokov parody. This is for real. I almost can't believe it:

Patience

Hi
One thing I love is to introduce someone to Maharaji. And sometimes I`m really impatient when I talk to someone and feel that this person may appreciate getting to know about Knowledge.

Over the last year or so I`ve gotten to know a young man who lives in the same block of flats as I do. We meet by chance and chat for a few moments about things and the weather. there is a certainness about him that I find enchanting. But there was also a certain amount of reservation on both our sides which said 'Keep at a distance.'

For weeks I`ve been thinking about how can I invite him to my home to watch a broadcast, how can I introduce Maharaji in a converstaion, and suddenly I remembered a piece from the video 'A Garden' in which Maharaji says, and I quote 'Once you have become part of the garden, you don`t have to remain in the garden, wherever you go, you will make garden. Wherever you go it will be a garden, whatever you touch will become a garden. And so many will come and appreciate, and want to become the garden too. That, that real feeling in this life, that is what it`s all about.'

And remembering this quote I asked myself when will he make the first step, when will he invite me for coffee or a longer chat....and what happened this morning on my way to buy some freshly baked bread rolls for my Sunday morning breakfast.

This young man sees me on the street and starts shouting my name. I of course am in my thoughts, thinking about my shattered nerves and how I can become a little healthier in my 51st year on this planet Earth, and he starts talking to me and I say, 'Hey, I`m buying some breads, come by for a coffee!' and he says, 'Sorry I`ve to learn for an exam' and I, say to myself 'Well that blew out again didn`t it.' And before I can say another word to him he says, 'You were jogging before weren`t you.' And I say, 'Yes, but I`ve stopped that. Ànd I probably won`t start again.' and he says, 'Well I wanted to ask you if you do start again then we could jog together.'

And then we talked about jogging, and how healthy it is, and how miserably unhealthy I feel now that my 50th birthday has passed. And we talk about how long is the best length of time, and at what time of day to do it, and then I say to him, 'Well, you know the best speed can be measured by the ability to talk without having to gasp for breath.' And then I realise, here is that golden chance to introduce this young man to Maharaji. So, when I return from Miami,I`ll be jogging, not that I want to, but it is such an ooportunity to introduce this young man to the happiness which has been revealed to me by Maharaji and his truly wonderful gift of Knowledge.

Thank you for this website.

David

David Coleman
Vienna, Austria

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 21:02:57 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Somebody PINCH me.
Message:
Is this a big lucid cosmic dream or am I really on and ex-cult forum.

This reads like a script for CULT DAYS OF OUR LIFE?

Tell me this person doesn't think his only purpose in life is to tell other people about Knowledge. He thinks being attracted to another human being is an opportunity to convince people you have a special gift. Shit! That letter is disturbing.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:39:52 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dirty Old Man Meets Fine Young Boy?
Message:
This is bizarre. I'm surprised ELK printed this. This old fart is obviously cruising this kid. Good grief!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 08:02:26 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jogging for God!!
Message:
And then I realise, here is that golden chance to introduce this young man to Maharaji. So, when I return from Miami,I`ll be jogging, not that I want to, but it is such an ooportunity to introduce this young man to the happiness which has been revealed to me by Maharaji and his truly wonderful gift of Knowledge.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha !!!

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:13:43 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Come home right now. lover...
Message:
and show me that fifth technique.. (&^%&^%£%$£%$')

Jogging for God? - been, done, t-shirt - now I prefer drinking and farting about for EPO. So would our ELK correspondent if she had but an ounce of self-respect or boilerplate humour left in her. How can you write things so ridiculous without even noticing?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:55:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Um, Nige, 'she' s a he
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Dec 15, 2001 at 19:53:15 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Ah - but should we tell her? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 05:26:50 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Its Premie soft porn !
Message:
I understand that these sort of romatic stories go on all the time in 'the world' - well thats what Pat C tells me...

brings a whole new mening to 'jogging bottoms'

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 13:39:12 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Just take up jogging, Loafie :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 23:35:52 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re:
Message:
(got my reasons for moving this from the thread below)

Jim,
..It aint really ''businessmans syndrome'', it is quite common human behaviour. Women indulge in it far more than guys.
Last saturday there was a holiday party for abused kids and I went to help with a craft booth, there were 5 women involved in the organizing
and the backstabbing and infighting was intense. Who knows what all they managed to hassle over, but I didnt want the details although someone wanted to talk about it and they wanted to talk about it to me.
I said I dont want to know.
Lots of fights happened here on the forum and I mostly just didnt read the threads or the posts when I saw them going that way.
People have complained about you and my response was always and I qoute, ''I have a blind spot to any alleged flaws in Jim because of all the good he has done and how he helped me'' Maybe you recall that one.
I know you have an obsession somewhat but I think it is good for this
forum that there are those that are willing to do constant heavy lifting and dealing with the attack dog premies and other jobs you tackle.
With your successes have also been failures of course, but I never saw them cross the line I saw in the Katie thread we are discussing.

Tonight I was in a store doing holiday shopping with 2 of the boys here, the youngest really put on a hell of a bad behaviour show and I was the recipient and it was in front of a lot of folks. I know some of them could not believe that I seemingly didnt really care that he was so damn way way out of line and I was taking all his shit.

I know he is a good guy, and usually fine and all, but also he is going to give me (undeserved - I say) hell and do it in public and
what am I going to do? Go ballistic and overpower him in that moment
just for the sake of some strangers ideas about parenting?
I choose no.
And have before.
However, some things around the house I DO become adamant about.
Whatever my lines are, they all have thier various reasons.

In your case, I cant stand to see you fall into the trap which so many do, granted I never saw you do it before, or noticed it, I will assume it is the first time, but you surely have seen it plenty in your life. People DO that. Regularly. Dont you do it. It is not worthy of you. Leave that shit for those that are insecure.

I rather would try to make you laugh with an Ananomousie post.
Sometimes they fall flat, oh well, I try.
NO one is constant, no one can avoid mistakes, familiarize yourself with this one so it can be avoided. Criticism is a tricky game.

I NEVER criticise the 20 year old here, and he has always been especially hard. He came from abuse and it is hard for those types to get beyond it. He can only take encouragement. The 25 year old had no dad either and when he was here (for about 10 years), I had to play the role he needed out of me and it had nothing whatsoever to do with telling him in stern tones what was right or wrong.
The 2 youngest get some stern stuff from me because they are not insecure about who I am and what I mean to them. And I care deeply
about them and cant stand to see some things in them. There is a girl Julia down the block and her mom is gone, dad is lowlife, and at 9, she is a bit of an emotional wreck and all summer long I had to intercede on her behalf when the kids were playing because..
and this is true,
Many Kids will attack weakness.
They cant seem to help themselves from pummeling the weakness in another kid.
Daily if given the chance. The saying 'kids are cruel' came from someone who knew.
All these factors affect me and played a part. No one is immune from
the dark side, we will always need to be on gaurd for ourselves and others around us. Or at least those we care about.
And in my case, that would include you and Katie.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 07:42:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bill, I can't understand you
Message:
Frankly, I don't understand what you're saying. My point, though, is that I didn't lie about anything like you said I did.

But anyway, how about this? No one wants to see this kind of argument so how about you email me, tell me what you think I said that was a lie. We'll try to work it out and then I can at least say here that we did that. Katie can then come and call me a liar and then she and I can work that out too...

For the record, Bill, that's a joke.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 22:03:39 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: good to read you [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 00:55:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Of course, Bill, always a pleasure [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:20:19 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Open your eyes JImbo!
Message:
From what I can gather this guy sees the chance of a good shag with a supple healthier young stud. Jogging, sweat, panting, you know the drill.

He's just mixing up the fruit salad a bit, wants to make it seem a 'holy' union rather than just a 'hole' union.

Let him have his fun before he carcs it bro...

ahem...

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 21:59:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A real live devotee answers us on ELK
Message:
Found this on ELK today:

Inthiranee Subramaniam

A gift unparalleled

Inthrianee from Kuala Lumpur tells of the transformations Knowledge has brought in her life

Hello, I'm a Malaysian lady, an ex-teacher and a humble and grateful student of a great master – Maharaji.

When I resigned from a job that I enjoyed enormously, wanting to spend quality time with my two teenage daughters, I was gripped by the fear that I would suffer boredom and regret as if I was a workaholic of some sort. However contrary to that I found myself offering sincere appreciation for the extra time, which allowed me the opportunity to further explore the inner realms of myself. As I increased the time I spent practising the priceless Knowledge my master had offered me, I found myself being freed of many negative emotions and qualities that had tormented me for a long time. With the emergence of a new Inthira not only did my family enjoy spending time with me but amazingly I started to enjoy being with myself too. I have started to wake up grateful and excited for another day of exploration and joy. I marvel at this life and the beautiful gifts it offers me daily and, as this cup is filled to the brim with happiness, I offer thanks, which seems so little; to a master who has opened that door that I once never knew existed.

A new Inthira, huh? What'd you do with the last one? Put it back in the box?

THE VERY SAME LIFE

This very life that I so appreciate, marvel at and give thanks for daily is the very same life that I had wanted to end 22 years ago. The day I had planned to deliberately end this life was the very same day I heard of my master from someone who was not even his student then. I had found this life meaningless, empty and filled with pain and suffering. For ten long years I struggled to carry on and this friend wanting to help, introduced me to many religious and self-awareness groups. Everywhere I went I encountered disappointment. There was a place deep inside that remained untouched and no one had the means to address it. On the day I was at my lowest ebb, this friend called and merely said: ' I think you need a teacher. Some friends of mine are students of a teacher and maybe you might find your answer there.'

Yawn ... this story is so damn old. The juxtaposition of someone's supposedly darkest hour, melodramatic as any Bollywood romance, is one crazy cliche we're all so familiar with. How many premies play down their lives before, exaggerating their deeply disturbed despondency, only to overplay the majesty of their salvation at the feet of the cult leader? Been there, done that ... t-shirt ....

But even if this woman's blowing things up a bit, which I'm sure's the case, if she really was so out of control she was a perfect sitting duck for something, anything. I'm sure that Kuala Lampur is full of women just like her who found salvation that same day, if not hour, 22 years ago by dropping to their knees and accepting Jesus into their hearts. Who'd ever want to bet otherwise?

I knew that it would be my very last attempt. In the state that I was in it is strange that I did actually take those steps towards the venue, which was about 25 km away, and to reach it I had to take two buses.

Let's not get carried away here, Inthira. I'm seeing someone on their very last legs, slowly, slowly, slowly, walking ... boarding the bus ... gettting off .. getting on yet ANOTHER bus .... oh this is too much!

The teacher was not there! And what some students spoke made no sense at all! When they screened a film. I saw a little boy speak and though I didn't comprehend much of what he said, some thing was obvious almost tangible – that part of me that had been crying and hurting for such a long time had been addressed!

Halleluah! Halleluah! Hall-LE-LU-AH!

RELIEF

All the pain was miraculously but temporarily alleviated. For a long time only one thing kept me running back, not wanting to miss even a single day – I felt so good inside. Today I'm grateful. So, so, so grateful to this kind master who had allowed a whole new world of hope, love, beauty, challenge, joy and numerous other such wonderful gifts to unfold and emerge.

This is so obvious. The relief, Inthira, was supposed to be found in the meditation. Here, you can't understand anything but the cult vibe attracts you and you let yourself go into it. Plain and simple.

Do I hope to convince someone out there? Can I? To one, without access to this Knowledge, with the techniques but no corresponding experience (for various reasons), to skeptics, and to so-called 'open-minded neutral guys' this might seem a sales pitch – a scam!

But have they walked in my shoes to know of my sincerity? It would be stupidity on my part to justify the quenching of my thirst to one who's never known thirst! I was dying of thirst in the middle of a desert, walking into mirages everywhere, hope lost, exhausted, death a welcome option, when a sympathetic passerby directed me to the bearer of water in an oasis. Would I ask any questions?

Two things: one, no one's doubting your 'sincerity', as if that's the measure of anything. Don't get me wrong, if you come here and talk with us and try to bullshit, yeah, your sincerity would then be at issue. But right now, forget it, you're just a sincere cult member. Don't worry about it. Funny, though, how you accept the cult on its own terms like that. Sincerity's the big bugaboo, huh? You got that, then you can't go wrong. Is that what you think? Really?

Likewise, it's funny to see her buy so completely the cult argument that the measure of one's 'thirst' for truth is in their adstention from asking questions. Pathetic, really.

Guess? My thirst dragged me towards my master. He gave me the drink of life and in the quenching I understood and was rejuvenated.

MY OWN OASIS

Do you know what else this master did? He gave me access to my own well and oasis! Now I can drink to my fill whenever and wherever and with the quenching of my thirst I can go about the process of enjoying the rest of my time in this beautiful playground- the earth! Just saying thank you seemed insufficient and thus I came forward to do service.

If I come across someone in a similar situation what should I do? My experience and plight would compel me to guide him towards the only bearer of water I know. Is it my duty? Guess again? If he argues, debates and criticises, he's only aggravating his already parched state and I'm definitely not going to drag that horse to the water! This is a free world – free to suffer too!

Nevertheless, as long as I'm alive I'll remember that terrible plight I was in and till I die I hope to guide anyone, who shows sign of thirst, to my master even if it means leaving the comfort of the heaven I'm in and bearing the discomfort or inconvenience that may arise in the process. My master's strength, determination, forbearance, tolerance, understanding, commitment and indefatigable effort encourage me to take that extra step when the need arises! If that takes the form of service, great I'm doing it and I do I enjoy doing it!

Yes, yes, we're all parched like toast out here. I'm surprised we're all not killing ourselves. Must be a miracle, I guess.

Anyway, here's where it gets fun ...

WHY?

One day as I was surfing the Elan Vital website I accidentally went into this strange 'Ex-Premie – website'. I 'm really glad I came to this after I had been practising Knowledge for many years otherwise what they had written would have confused me. I can see all the effort they have put into their work and all the information, organised and documented so well, seems professional and impressive. Anyone can be so easily misled by all the information! What I'm unable to comprehend is why are such intellectuals, working collectively and probably with different motives, trying to prove truth to be non-existent. Can they ever succeed? They may convince one who approaches everything with his mind superficially but once the very same person has had the opportunity to know the master, obtain the gift, practise it sincerely and get a taste of the incredible experience lying within him all the words would be merely some child's malicious effort at discrediting Knowledge - and most probably with a hidden agenda!

No hiddne agenda at all, friend. The 'gift', like the giver, is bunk. You want to brek away from your mind a bit, fine. Meditate on your breath, stick your thumbs in your ears and enjoy the white noise. But that's about it. This is NOT the secret of life anymore than Maharaji's a 'Master' of it.

JUST A SPARK

Even as my eyes scanned the interesting reading materials dancing in front of me, it did nothing, nothing to touch, trouble or affect the powerful force, the constant experience that is continuously pounding within me as if crying out: 'Just a spark, just a spark of that inner experience and one will be crying for all the wasted time and effort.' Yes, just a spark of that experience within one will succeed in discrediting everything written or said all over the world against this truth. So who are those diligent ex-premies working day and night trying to convince or discredit the validity of this magnificent opportunity? Have they had the experience I'm talking about? Another guess?

Answer? Yes. We've all been there, Inthira. Too bad for you, but true, true, true.

Can all the 'investigation', 'research', so-called proof, documents and other such information eliminate that mighty torrent that is gushing through you, me, each human being, even the ex-premies? To be able to stop and look not outside and listen not outside and to know without an iota of doubt that everything that is written or spoken against the existence of this inner experience can only be the work of a mere child – and an inexperienced one at that, is an opportunity every sincere seeker of truth is offered.

NEEDLE IN A HAYSTACK

Ironically reading the ex- premie website has actually made me appreciate this Knowledge and my master even more. It made me realise that finding a genuine master and having access to the gift he offers is akin to finding a needle in a haystack. What more with all the traps and webs waiting to swallow a simple thirsty being! I am fortunate beyond my wildest expectation for having Maharaji as my master when such a great force is pitched and pitted against my reaching him!

Ah yes,FACTS: the real test of devotion!

TRUTH IS STRANGER THAN FICTION

I give thanks to him who has brought to my knowledge the magnificence and miracle of each breath. To me it is as obvious as daylight that my family, my name, my wealth, my education, status, experience, emotion and everything I so proudly and arrogantly call my own – including this body - is by the courtesy of each breath that I take for granted and thus am unaware of most of the time. With each breath that comes in I'm offered everything and when it leaves and doesn't return – what do I own? Where is my pursuit, my website, commitment, life's work, family, friends, everything? Truth is stranger than fiction! It is through the courtesy of that simple breath that comes and goes so unobtrusively that we own what we so proudly call our own! When Knowledge offers me access to the very core of myself and fulfilling that cry there actually fulfills every part of me it can be only ignorance and maybe obstinacy that hinders or obstructs one from accepting it. Having a master like Maharaji is actually an opportunity and experience unparalleled. I am truly honoured to be associated with someone like him and wish to offer my most sincere gratitude to him for having accepted me as his student.

THE MEANS BECOMES THE END

I truly empathize with those who in their pursuit of the transient forgo the opportunity of the evolution of mankind; that is to reach the permanent. Daily we do everything for that which deprives us of a chance to go home, where all our questions are answered, where we can be ourselves, to let go and enjoy ourselves knowing beyond any doubt that an incredibly powerful and merciful force is on our side! We live, we work, and we eat and drink and keep this body alive for a while to reach an end. Unfortunately the means has become the end for so many. What greater punishment can we inflict on ourselves! How do I thank him who has not only woken me up but also shown me the end and allowed me to enjoy both the means and the end! What greater blessing can one receive?

No one gives satsang like the Hindu's, don't you think? It's like it's in their blood or something. But let this woman just begin to deal with some of the stuff she found so 'interesting' but which, she claims, only strengthened here devotion. The flowerly religious boilerplate would drop away, the real Inthira would come out and we could then get her real opinion about Monica Lewis. About the fact that her Master has lead a double 'x-rated' life for years, purposely to fool her and her fellow devotees. About the bicyclist her Master killed. About everything outside of the sound of her breath.

I've stopped retaliating to outside aggravation and irritation for I understand that everything I see outside is a mere reflection of what I am within! I smile now without a need for a catalyst. I love without an external stimulus. I'm intoxicated not because of alcohol. I dance but not to any outside music. My master has shown me how to reach the treasure house of gifts that was bestowed upon me when I entered this playground of life. I'm not a pauper as I once thought I was but one with unlimited wealth.

Sounds a bit autistic, quite frankly. So, yes, we know how it works. She spends all her time trying to demonstrate to herself and all the other poor folk around her that she's not the old Inthira anymore. She's a living example of Maharaji's perfect love.

How tiresome these people are. They put on their shows for their workmates, neighbours, family members, then they get together and quietly ask each other how well the show went. You can see this on LG (which I now find I can go read again -- wish CD would have said something a few months ago). All the premies talking that same old stuff about the hall organizers 'really feeling something'. EVERY CULT IN THE WORLD DOES THIS! It's just a lifelong performance. For the Master as well as the mastered.
I may have come empty-handed however thanks to my master I won't leave empty. I was blind groping in darkness but now I walk with confidence and clarity knowing that I've made the right choice. How does one thank someone who has taken me from the darkest hell by switching on the lights and showing me that it is the most beautiful heaven I'm in!

Once a long time before I had worked day and night for that very thing which deprived me of a chance to go home and be free as I didn't know that we humans had a choice, unlike all other creatures on this earth. Today I marvel this choice! I choose happiness over sadness, love over hate, and simplicity over complexity and even life over death. I've chosen to fill every breath to the fullest. I've chosen 'He who knows and knows He knows' – my master and thank him sincerely for showing me that the choice is mine.

I choose to cross the ocean of mire and walk across the bridge towards eternity and not just stand on this side, too scared to take the paradigm shift, complacent yet trembling in my comfort zone. It's my choice if I want to open my eyes and see the wanders of the mighty universe or tightly keep them shut and live in a world of illusion, imagination, phobia and confusion. History is littered with stories of people who made that choice and we still talk or read of them and are amazed at their profound knowledge. We read 'Lives of great men remind us that we can make our lives sublime and departing leave behind us footprints on the sand of time'. Yet it is this very same world that held Judas who made his choice too.

Hey, who's Eyes are Wide Shut, girl?
I see a master now on earth giving each human being that choice – one that is unparalleled in the history of mankind!

Yes, I do see a master now on earth giving each human being that choice – one that is unparalleled in the history of mankind! Yet tragically on the other hand I also see history repeating itself! The choice to fly or crawl has always been ours!

Those of us who've made that choice can choose to spend precious moments holding verbal wars against those who choose otherwise or move forward to reach another lost, and thirsty shipwrecked brother telling him that hope and help is near!

I've seen a miracle. Now I've been given the choice to make this life a miracle. I choose that!

To my dear brothers and sisters reading this: -

I'D LIKE TO INTRODUCE YOU TO THE MAN WHO'S MADE MY WILDEST DREAMS COME TRUE - MAHARAJI.

From an extremely grateful student, Inthira

You can have the last word, Inthira. Drop by some time for a real conversation. Meanwhile, quit thinking about those 'interesting' things you read. That's probably how Judas got started.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:51:22 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What? What? What? What?
Message:
Holy shit Jim !!!!! Did you actually say this?!!?!!!?!!!

'You want to break away from your mind a bit, fine. Meditate on your breath, stick your thumbs in your ears and enjoy the white noise.'

You actually admit this! I'm aghast, stunned, astounded, shocked, appalled, and a little bit frightened. Jeeze, you actually get it. I mean you actually got it! I feel like John Walker, I feel like a Johnny Walker Red. This historic moment...this lucid, dazzling, clear-headed, accurate, well-organized feeling. I'm at a loss for words. Finally!!!!!!!! Oh my God...the humanity....

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:54:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: What? What? What? What?
Message:
Dog,

I've never said otherwise. My position is that it's okay to do a little of this once in awhile. It's trivial, though. The meditation's not at all what you make it out to be. Neither is the mind.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:59:29 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Joking aside, this means a lot to me [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:07:11 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Aw Jimbo...
Message:
I think it's a little unfair to go through someone's personal heart felt (we imagine) expression and mock it bit by bit. This is someone from another culture who thinks and expresses themselves differently than us westerners. I think you could have been more understanding of her simple (to us) ideas.

I think it's a bit below the belt doing a 'Private Eye' satire on her.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:18:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: How about this one?
Message:
How about Stojan, SC? Can I make fun of him? Here's a guy who's so screwed up he doesn't even think he exists other than as a 'heartfelt feeling' courtesy of his 'Master' -- sorry, YOUR Master. This is sick stuff, SC. But is it okay to laugh at? You're the sensitivity expert, not me:

Stojan Svet:

'Yes'

From Postojna, Slovenia

What I think about myself:
that is what I am not
What some others think of me
that is what I am even less...
When I start to recognize
that heartfelt feeling from within,
than I gladly say to myself:
'Yes, that is what I am'...
But I sincerely admit
that sometimes to articulate that 'yes'
I have to immediately practise
my dear master's Knowledge

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 17:46:34 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, that's abusive
Message:
I think you can reported to the International Commission on Human Rights for reprinting that. I'm sure it's also a war crime and a crime against humanity. Why, that poem should be considered a weapon of mass destruction, threatening to the biomass and destruction to all carbon-based life forms.

Yech.

I'm pretty sure the purpose of enjoyinglife is so that those premies won't send that toxic crap directly to Maharaji.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:22:53 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Poetry sucks when it's written down
Message:
We all found that out in the Eighties right?
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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 19:35:27 (EST)
From: Correct, it was the 80s
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: when m stated to read out his poetry NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:44:45 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Poetry only sucks when it's utter crap!
Message:
For the most part, even the simplest phrases and metaphors that reflect genuine lived experience have some merit. But cult poetry is utter crap, almost by definition. In every instance that I (or you) have encountered. I should know - I wrote a fair whack of the stuff, twenty-years ago. Truly Vogon standard, believe me..

But the worst of this unmeasured, unstructured, verbal diarroea comes from Prem, himself ('In simple silence I start to glisten...')

That's what you get when you have no editorial standards - no-one handily-placed to point out to Ceaucescu that, even when your three-hour speech receives 64 standing ovations, it doesn't mean you have moved anyone's real-life heart or mind one degree around the compass.

Just nice-sounding, woolly noise. Who needs it? Give me Dylan Thomas, any day.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:44:36 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What about Mike McReady
Message:
or something, he was a beat poet in Liverpool in the sixties. Wrote some excellent stuff about living life as a 'beatnik outsider' by describing society in a most illuminating manner and inspired all us spolit bording school kids to get real and Rebel!

I can't remember his last name. McCracken?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 20:27:30 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Michael McClure
Message:
Michael McClure, Beat poet, was called Pat McLear in Kerouac's novel 'Big Sur.'
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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 07:20:12 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: Michael McClure
Message:
oh micheal--yea, sure. been to listen to him twice here, had a beer with him and /Ray Manzerek of the Doors after their second presentation.
Michael was the one who persuaded Jim Morrison to publish his writings and move beyond merely being known to the public as a rock star.
I have all of Morrison's volumes.

some poetry can only be fully appreciated when written down,

speaking of poetry, Tolkein's verses in Lord of the Rings are luminous. no one here could do anything remotely as exquisite.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:32:47 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: In simple silence I start to glisten..
Message:
..Whilst all around mw people listen,
Awestruck for my reaction to the Perfect Master being,
The kind of prat who goes and does it,
Leaves the car keys in the ignition.

Locked out forever,what a fate,
Can my ego take the hate.......etc , etc,

You're right Nigel , writing schlock is good fun.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 08:22:42 (EST)
From: listen fanatic
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: NOPE
Message:
A Timely Note on Religious Zealots:

'A group of believers, by agreeing on their view of a god, creates a deity who can outlive any member of the flock. Their god is indeed immortal. ... Religion is real though gods begin in imagination. And religion has impact because it affects the faithful whether or not their supreme being has an existence apart from their imaginations. It might not matter whether gods exist, but it matters very much that people think so.

... We bargain with them, trading sacrifices or simple allegiance for protection. As in any primate troop, the followers gain power by making friends with the alpha. A straight-laced church praying for world peace and a wild-eyed cult bent on bloody mayhem both gain confidence from believing that their god helps them, that the super alpha male chose them alone as his special allies.'

SuCkit baby

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 19:55:59 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: listen fanatic
Subject: Time to quit talking about
Message:
Osama Bin Laden

....don't you think?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 04:47:29 (EST)
From: William Shakespeare ...
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: ... eat your heart out!
Message:
... David Roupell has spoken.
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:22:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Or how about THIS one?
Message:
Here's anoher freak. This one thinks that she's got an ongoing internal dialogue between her mind and her heart. As if they really talk to one another. Oh, sorry, didn't mean to be rude. I forgot that you probably think that too;

Janice Wilson:

Coming home

From Baldwinsville, New York

Since coming back from having seen Maharaji recently in Westchester, NY, I have realized how beautifully sweet it was that sitting there with him I felt so comfortable, like I was completely at home and hadn't been away at all.

To my mind the one and a half years since I had seen him in person seemed like a long time, but to my heart it was not an issue.

I felt at home with myself, my heart, and truly enjoyed the company and friendship of my master.

What an amazing world, the world of Knowledge - truly timeless.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:12:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Aw, yes, sensitivity training from SC
Message:
I think it's a little unfair to go through someone's personal heart felt (we imagine) expression and mock it bit by bit. This is someone from another culture who thinks and expresses themselves differently than us westerners. I think you could have been more understanding of her simple (to us) ideas.

I think it's a bit below the belt doing a 'Private Eye' satire on her.


---

Too funny, Roupell. You crack me up.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:30:46 (EST)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's the idea Hell
Message:
me cracking you up...

with sharp emphasis on the 'crack'

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Date: Sun, Dec 16, 2001 at 07:27:48 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: so u into crack SC?
Message:
somehow that would explain a lot.
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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:45:21 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji's History -- EV PR
Message:
Elan Vital's website in the US may be a mere ghost of what is was, but the Australian EV has a summary of Maharaji's history. It contains a couple of interesting tidbits that the American site didn't have, but has mostly identical language. Anyhow, a little analysis:

At age 15 Maharaji fell in love. Marolyn Johnson was a student of Maharaji's teachings and worked as a flight attendant. They first met when Maharaji was a passenger on one of her flights and a romance developed.

I always thought that was a premie rumor, but maybe not.

At the time the organisation promoting his teaching was seen as one of the fastest growing movements of its kind. Maharaji wanted to concentrate on his teaching but was increasingly required to consider the practical aspects of responding to the growing number of requests from around the world asking him to come and speak. Now added to this, he was maintaining a discrete romantic liaison right under the noses of a family that would certainly disapprove of such a relationship on grounds of race and caste.

Not to mention, oh, I dont' know, AGE?

In 1974, aged 16, Maharaji married Marolyn. At twenty-four, she was eight years his senior. [Yes we can add, thank you.]

For his mother, this was the final straw. She accused her youngest son of betraying every tradition she held sacred. She disowned him and returned to India. Once there, she helped his elder brother start a separate movement.

I know that the US site does not mention Sat Pal like this one does. But it's a little vague to call it a 'separate movement.' Actually, he claims to be the Perfect Master INSTEAD of Maharaji.

The strain of this rift with his family took its toll on Maharaji's health. He offered reconciliation with his family, an offer that was never accepted.

Was that the ulcer? I'm sure the ulcer was before the family wars. What other health problems has he had?

Also, this stuff about offering reconciliation with Mata Ji and Sat Pal. What is that about? On what terms was it offered? Somehow it doesn't sound negotiable. If both claim to be THE ONLY Perfect Master, one would presumably have to step down, and I can tell you, that ain't going to be Maharaji.

Eleven months after their marriage, Maharaji and Marolyn had their first child, a girl they named Premlata. [Again, we can add. (Hint, Hint, get it?) This is so funny. What a transparent explantion about this not being a shot gun wedding. So funny.]

Three more children followed, Hans, Dayalata and Amar. [Well, no longer necessary to give months after the marriage, right?]

Today, the family lives in a house on a hill near Malibu, California. [I guess calling the house 'delapitdated' which EV US called it was just a bit much for the Aussies.]

TODAY, what happened? Where did the years 1974-1985 go? What happened to Millennium, DUO, saving the world, humanitarian leader, devotion and surrender, the ashrams and the like? Is that period just too hard to explain? Apparently, yes, because it doesn't fit into the current image/spin, does it.

Learning to Fly
At fourteen Maharaji started learning to fly. He took his first flight as a student pilot in a Cessna 172. By 1993, Maharaji had qualified to fly a Gulfstream IV.

Maharaji is committed to travelling the world in order to bring his message to as broad an audience as possible. A jet is leased for this purpose, as the schedule is always demanding and it has proven virtually impossible to organise it conveniently and safely around commercial flight schedules.

Funny how being a pilot is considered such a big deal, but would be irrelevent to anyone looking for a spiritual master. I am convinced this is here because it's something Maharaji is really into, something that his very much a part of his identity, and something he wants front and center in all descriptions of him.

And that shit about commercial airliners is so precious. Really, give me a break. For one thing, Sat Pal seems to do just fine enduring the hardships of flying first class on commercial airliners. Plus, the cost of M's planes is astronomical, taking away funds he could use to actually do what he says he's doing, but really isn't.

Maharaji has planes, his own personal Gulfstream worth $40 million, not because it's a tool for spreading knowledge, but because he loves to fly planes, and wants his own. That's why.

Here's how they spin that:

For Maharaji, being a pilot is both a personal pleasure and a practical tool he can use to carry out his life’s work more effectively across the globe.

Much more the former than the latter, I would submit. How long M can get away with soaking the premies with that line only time will tell. He's been doing it for over 20 years.

But then he doesn't say what is 'life's work' really is? Maybe it's 'being a jet-set millionaire Guru.' In that case, your own jet is pretty much required. The Maharishi has one, and so did Rajneesh, I think.

Does he also use the $7 million yacht as a 'practical tool to carry our his life's work?' How does that fit in?

Maharaji is very open about the fact that for him there is absolutely no conflict between enjoying things of this world while also pursuing a path of inner fulfilment, provided you are clear about where your priorities lie.

Yes, well, isn't that nice that he doesn't hide that opinion? Isn't that convenient? I think if he thought being filthy rich being completely into money was a conflict, he might not be so open about it, given his obscenely lavish lifestyle.

His teaching has reached 82 countries worldwide and he travels constantly in an effort to meet as many of his students as possible. When not travelling he works on video productions that have begun to be broadcast by satellite and generally takes a family vacation twice a year.

Oh, please, his life is one big vacation. When was the last time Maharaji did something that someone else made him do? Doing what you want, when you want is called 'vacation.'

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 20:07:58 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji's History -- EV PR
Message:
Hi Joe,

I'd be interested to know how often he flies that jet. (cough) I mean for pleasure.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:02:46 (EST)
From: CultbusterUK
Email: cultbusteruk@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: Message to First Class Users
Message:
Any First Class user who is willing to share their access details, please write to the above address.

CBUK

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 22:13:52 (EST)
From: Cult member
Email: None
To: CultbusterUK
Subject: It'll take you way too long
Message:
to even download the software, fella.

And if by a miracle of hacking (or some dark traitor) you got onto the server, you wouldn't even have read access to any conferences, forums, pages or bbs. Sorry pal but security on FC is tighter than a rat's butt. Why do you think it's called
FIRST CLASS!

Guess you can dream but....

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 18:40:03 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: picture this..
Message:
Picture the scene: a £30 million-dollar private Lear jet crash-lands on a mid-Pacific, rain-forested desert island, thousands of miles from civilisation. Of those on board there are but two survivors. One is a short, portly, middle-aged Indian gentleman: from his dress code and bearing, on nodding terms with the finer things in life. His former occupation: Lord of the Universe. The other is a fit-looking but nondescript Joe Blow: from his dress code and bearing, on scowling terms with fellow-servants of the guru. The obscurity of their location and lack of communication equipment make rescue unlikely for months - possibly years. At the outset, there are just the two of them. Their seeming lack of former communication with one another makes present interaction an unknown.

Facilities are, at first glance, spartan. Food is potentially abundant but requires planning and hard work in the hunting, fishing, planting, gathering, storage, preparation and cooking. Not to mention the washing-up. Similarly, there are raw materials for constructing a basic shelter, and for the rough-hewing of tools, twine and fishing rods to carry out the daily necessaries. If survival is possible, it will be all hands to the wheel - all primates to the coconut tree. But his own survival being necessary for the Master’s survival - and, he assumes, vice-versa - Joe resolves to see to all of it. He knows his place.

He bashfully introduces himself (the guru's house has many servants). The Master straightens his jacket, shakes a little at the horror of it all, not to mention the wonder of his creation, distainfully acknowledges the servant’s presence, effects a limp handshake, gazes to the empty horizon wondering nervously whether there are options. There are no options: each will have of make the best of the other’s talents and company in some kind of holding operation. The devotee cannot believe his luck (Not a plane crashes?). The Master cannot but curse his own. Will help arrive? Oh for the gift of omniscience….

So they examine their wounds and take soundings of location and resources. Things look grim, but could be worse. They have breath in their lungs and a chance to experience precious moments. Better still, a storm washes in a flotilla of unopened brandy barrels from a wrecked container ship. Things are possibly looking up – but that’s for chapter two…

[An aside to present narrative: there is this really funny theatrical satire by JM Barrie (the Peter Pan man) called ‘The Admiral Crichton’ - a send up of the British class system, as it then was, imagining what would happen if you removed social hierarchies and engineered an environment such that people could only assume the roles for which nature had equipped them. In no time at all the Lord and Master – who had never done an honest day’s labour in his life - had become servant, and vice versa.

Check out: http://www.pitlochry.org.uk/season/plays/crichton.html

‘ While at first glance Barrie's gentle satire on the British class system may not seem to have quite the resonance it had when first staged in 1902, in reality the play's delightful wit, imagination and sparkle are not in the least diminished by the passage of nearly a century. The fundamental message, too, remains as clear and truthful as ever - that a man's intrinsic worth and his position in life may often be at odds but cream, given the right circumstances, will nevertheless rise to the top.
When the aristocratic Loam family are marooned on a desert island, together with a party of friends, servants and their ever loyal butler, Crichton, they must all look to their mettle. That a natural leader should emerge under such trying circumstances might be expected. However, the identity of the individual in question proves to be rather more of a surprise.’

Worth watching if you ever get a chance.]

Back to the plot: Robinson Crusoe was the natural Master in Daniel Defoe’s similar yarn. But only, I reckon, because he owned gun and ammunition. Mr P. Warat (the tragic hero in our own movie) bears a closer resemblance to Barrie’s Lord Loam – his superior status built upon convention and conditioned deference. He has the power to instil fear in Joe Blow, but for how long, and which adverse circumstances notwithstanding? Remember, to start with, at least, Joe has total trust in the Master’s judgement. But to catch and fillet a shark? More to the point, would the Master risk his life trying to catch the bleeder? And if not, should Joe therefore be expected to? How about scaling those 50-foot coconut palms?

And never mind the vegetable peeling – any pleb is happy to do that – here’s the rub, would Mr P. share his wisdom as before?

Joe Blow, remembering that a Master’s role is to spread his ongoing and unique message to the maximum number available and thereby secure their eternal destinies, after first constructing a fitting, sturdily-built residence for his Lord, goes one step further and builds a stage, complete with a throne, and upholsters it with the finest coconut-weave plush he can muster. For, surely, Mr P. will avail himself of the opportunity to share. He will ad lib, joke and wing it in a red hot show of masterly improvisation before a live audience just like he always used to. And just for him, Joe Blow, front row. How could the master not do that much? How else could he continue to be be a Master?

And afterwards, wet-eyed, Joe will light the arti candles (fashioned from a candle-nut in the fashion he learned from a real live aboriginal he once observed on a rainforest guided tour when moonlighting from Amaroo). Then, with tears in his own all-seeing peepers, Prem would indulge his devotee’s modest rendition of the ancient devotional hymn whose import sealed the bond between the two of them. Perhaps the Master would sing along. For – as Prem had so often reminded his flock – there is no bond in this world like that between a Guru Maharaji and his humble devotee. So was this not heaven on earth, then? Just Guru Maharaji and his most loyal servant. For what more could either of our heroes possibly ask?

But Mr P. didn’t appear to share Joe’s enthusiasm for the spiritual life. Something in his aloof manner, his silences and reluctance to engage. Was something amiss? Had Joe failed to deliver, in some subtle way? Surely not. Joe who had pulled the stops out from day one; who had smashed the flints to hew the tools to plane the wood to shape the beams to build the admittedly sub-standard residence; who had choked then plucked guinea-fowl by the dozen to stuff but one mattress; who had dug the peat to fuel the oven; who had tasted each fruit to check none were toxic…

So Joe then concluded that, for a master to preserve his masterliness, he must remain on some level, a lazy, fat do-nothing who needs comfort, food and brandy. And has a perfect right to feel a bit grumpy whenever he likes. And why not? If that’s how it has to be, then who was he to question what has to be?

But what if the Master was failing to do his proper job as Master? Perhaps, in having chosen to walk this vale of tears by taking on a human form, other humans had let him down to such an extent (what idiot last serviced the plane?) that the burden had become too much. Perhaps it was then Joe’s next service – nay, obligation – to shake his master from this dysfunctional ennui. Should he make a few pointed comments – the odd threat, maybe..? You chose to be human – how about behaving like one? Share and share alike. That sort of thing. Or else I’ll… hmm, what, exactly? The plot, like Bisto, thickens.

I see a movie in the making. How would this plot-line develop – assuming I have got it right, so far? I would love to hear the thoughts of other exes AND premies on this. How will our heroes apportion access to the brandy, for one thing? What will Joe and Mr P. talk about round the campfire?

Or how about a month or so later when a Mutiny-style, stunningly-beautiful. grass-skirted, Polynesian woman is washed ashore on a raft for no particular reason other than it makes the rest of the story at bit more interesting (at least if you wanted to get published or were doing a Hollywood treatment) what then..?

Over to you…

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:17:32 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Nige - mebbe you and Moley ...
Message:
... could write a novella for EPO! We've got a fabulous plot started. Maybe you could call it 'shallow Pal.' I've got to stop now. You're great -- funny stuff.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:26:04 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks, and yes...
Message:
I think this one is worth pursuing. So it's yes to the novella - I reckon we could do that - but, seriously, wouldn't this make a GREAT film scenario? I am not sure there are not other writers here who might do it better (Anth, John Mac?) But the point is, the idea is very simple and entirely plausible. The characters exist in real life. The events as described COULD happen. Hence, it requires very little suspension of disbelief in the reader/viewer. It could even lead believers to suspend their belief a little.

It is just a case of throwing a few real-life oddballs together in a Gilligan's Island situation - a situation which is itself a familiar template for a good narrative adventure yarn.

BTW: I love everybody's suggestions here for developing the plot...

I still think the funniest episode would be where the devotee builds the stage because he truly believes and expects that the Master will want to carry on as normal...

Actually - another thought - how about making Joe Blow a recognisable and ludicrous cult stereotype ripe for lampooning, eg. Jonathan Cainer? tee-hee...

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:09:37 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yes, Fran...Great Idea! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:25:57 (EST)
From: use same plot
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: except venue is a maximum security prison [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:06:01 (EST)
From: red butler
Email: None
To: use same plot
Subject: I already done that one
Message:
but it's a lost vignette. Maybe the EV monitors have a copy they could send me. Remember, the boss's 'best new friend' and the fishtank?

Not one of my best loved tales...

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:08:05 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: use same plot
Subject: No Max Sec. Prison, Island good! NT
Message:
nn
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 10:58:11 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: picture this..
Message:
Hi Nige,

How about a month or so later a Mutiny-syle, stunningly beautiful woman is washed ashore with another man--a beautiful, muscular, TALL blonde man?

That would thicken the plot substantially. With yet another man now added to the competition for the girl, Mr. P. just might try to give her the ole LOTU speil. He can't figure out a way to get the girl other to try to get the new guy into servitude, too. He looks at that stage and throne one day and sees that the new guy is sitting in his place. Throws a hissy fit and must show his superiority to the blonde.

Mr. P. starts remembering those old tricks, the old days, so he plots a way to regain his throne and convince all three that he is superior to all humans and must unseat this tall, handsome man from HIS throne. Joe, meanwhile, is plotting against everyone except the girl, whom he's already been secretly sharing bodily fluids with since her arrival....

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 12:20:55 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: And...Nigel,
Message:
Nigel,

This beautiful tall blonde man has kept his true identity from everyone, including the woman. But the audience knows something's up because of how he behaves. Quite regally.

Through BlondeGuy's (name?) flashbacks, the reader/audience knows he is actually quite wealthy and the heir to the throne of an old and distant empire, where the sport is polo, etc.

Nigel, I loved your post.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:40:46 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Cynthia
Subject: You're too kind, Cynth...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 14:51:48 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: Blank post? Try again..
Message:
'Too kind?' - Actually, not TOO kind (that would be where you turned over worldy goods..) - but kind of kind anyway...

Like the polo-playing prince idea, but last time I looked, I am sure Charles had dark brown hair. Or is it one of the younger well-bred brood you had in mind? Actually, I reckon all the royals would come across as cardboard characters on film. Zero personality through lack of interactions with real-life impoverished plebs. Though I guess you could always exaggerate the cardboardness to ludicrous extremes for comic effect...

Anyway, best to you Cynth from me and the house-trained rodent (who even as I type is zooming back down from Newcastle to my loving arms). Eight months on, we are still as much totally in love as ever. Lucky us, I guess...(?)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 16:45:13 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel...
Message:
I was thinking about Prince William, but then thought, there must be a better example, such as an Hindu prince, if there is such a thing. Couldn't be an Arab prince right now, too political, eh?

Just someone who is richer than M, and wants that throne, too! It could be hilarious, absolutely!

You and Moley make me smile a lot. You certainly ARE lucky! To find true love now, how could it be better? Couldn't.

Smooching and kissing, etc., etc., etc....

Inspires me.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 17:46:38 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia - Kiss a lot of frogs
Message:
Beleive me it's worth it, to find your Prince!

xxx Moley

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Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001 at 09:58:16 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Well, Moley, I don't think my husband...
Message:
would approve if I kissed a bunch of frogs!

Married 20 years...and going strong!

LOL!

You two....

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:41:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: I love this stuff!
Message:
There are a million real-life situations, common or extraordinary, which blow the roof off the guru story. In fact, Maharaji's interaction with his cult members is as limited contextually as a nativity scene (don't those things have their own name? You know, Jeus, manger, etc.?). But yours, Nige, is much better than most.

Actually, I think the story WOULD get really interesting once the girl shows up, not just for its prurient value either. One has to wonder what Maharaji would do to win the affections of Ms. Aloha. Would he play the guru card? How would that work if the other guy actually discussed things with him instead of just sitting there? Would Maharaji play his final card and just try to give the guy the evil eye? Would he give the girl his best Krishna-love-of-gopi's look?

Straight from the Doubtmaker Munitions Works comes the deadly 'Thought Experiment'. Woo woo!

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 21:44:15 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: So do I....
Message:
Perfect movie script. Thanks Jim. And, yes, in a non-prurient way the Aloha-honey would provide that necessary special ingredient to stop it getting a bit whatever. Imagine if she kopped off with Joe Blow. Cheese-face's curdled expression and impotent rage, stompimg round the rock-pools. Gawd, I am chuckling.. He could do an event for the both of them. And imagine the marriage ceremony.

No, actually this is sublimely cinematic. You could even leave Rawat out of it and find some more photogenic and interestingly beautiful beardy-faced fucker. At least Osho believed in a good time for devotees as well as himself.

[afterthought: how about a menage a trois? - that could prove intersting...]

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 01:21:04 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: How about he does the guru thing ...
Message:
... for the lovely lady, and she is totally entranced by the bhakti juju. But then Joe B., staunch as he is, starts to get into the rum while they are off bonking and the doubtmaker starts working.

Lots of plot development between sir slobbo and the fair maiden, and she, not being a premie since the 70s, is sick of his fatness, and her doubtmaker starts working. After all, sir slobbo's wealth is all due to Joe B -- who is actually the source of slobbo's wealth. And Joe B. is hunkier. So she starts to talk to Joe on the side. Joe and her could ditch slobbo and leave him to find his own cocoanuts. And Joe starts to become an expremie, and the fair maiden has found the better companion. Plus she's pretty good at spearing fish herself, and knows all sorts of island recipes that Joe has never dreamed of.

Lots of plot development and pretty soon sir slobbo is the foot servant to the loverly couple, just begging for a few crumbs earned by the sweat of Joe B and the fair maiden. And sir slobbo makes some neat palm leaf hats, just to keep them amused. You could call it Sirvivre, Guru Island.

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 02:48:11 (EST)
From: PatC...and everyday at sunset
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: the former guru dances in a hula skirt
Message:
.....while Joe and his spearfishing Pussy Galore dined on barbecued lobster, roast wildfowl and coconut wine. They watched as the, by now, hippopotamusly obese Rev Rawat did the wobble dance, topless with a mala of frangipani and a cute tutu of a grass hula skirt.

It wasn't as good as TV but, when Joe had thrown the remote at the TV back in his trailer in Arkansas, the TV hadn't jumped and dived and squealed as delightfully as the Rev Rawat did when Joe threw the former lord of the universe the cast off chicken bones. Almost as good as channel jumping.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 15:51:27 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC...and everyday at sunset
Subject: YESS!! The wobble dance!
Message:
Like an overweight gerbil in a grass skirt -- for the amusement of the new masters. And they could make some coconut wine for him so that the dancing could be very wiggly! A little dansh on the beash, I shay!

They will have to feed him a lot of scraps to keep him overweight. He could get skinny and sexy as a plot device, and win the lady back for a while, or at least have some secret rendevous on the beach. Or maybe some gay-time with Joe B.? But then he could learn to find his own food on the other side of the island and pork up again.

Yo ho ho and a bottle of washed up rum! Dansh, dansh, dansh!

--F

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:21:56 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: m dancing
Message:
Just tonigth saw a show with Rod Stewart
One of the songs was : do you think i am sexy.?

Do you remember when M came out dancing to that song First ?

Do you remember how you was feeling seeing him dancing .

I do , i had to swallow something really big in
my mouth, but i did ,,surrender,,,,,,

i went home almost blissed out

How was it for you ?

Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 11:53:16 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Rod Stewart -- Think I'm Sexy
Message:
At Holi Festival in Miami (at the Orange Bowl) in 1979, 'Do You Think I'm Sexy' (second line: 'Do You Want My Body') was blasted over the loud speakers at this Holi Festival in 1979 as Maharaji shot off high-powered water hoses at us, all the while juggling his rotund body up on the stage.

The next day, the Miami Herald ran the funniest expose of Holi, complete with sarcastic comments and very unflattering pictures of how ridiculous Maharaji looked. Anyhow, they made a big deal about that song being played. The way the premies swooned over him, I'm sure the reporters there felt it summed up the event very well.

BTW -- shortly after that Life Magazine ran an equally sarcastic and negative article about it in it's June, 1979 issue, which I think J-M has on the website.

True, M's treatment in the press has never been what he would have liked.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 06:44:13 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: oh how creepy
Message:
That didn't really happen did it? They didn't really play that Rod Stewart song and he didn't really dance to it is his Krishna drag costume did he. Please say no. What a blatant expression of all the not so latent sexuality associated with devotion. It just gets more freaky.

I remember once they played the Madness song 'it must be love' to him and several Elvis songs too. Every pop song I heard was somehow related to Maharaji. I remember crossing the Dover chanel on the way to a festival in Europe singing the Rod Stewart song 'I am sailing'. What a wasted youth. I kissed his feet and worshipped him as God.

I wonder what he would say to my father if they met again?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 02:18:34 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Re: m dancing
Message:
Yes Ulf,

It is a surreal memory isn't it. Sir fatness out there grinning like a sly dog, the bliss, the water, and 'if you think I'm sexy, and you want my body, come on sugar, let it show!' And one of the premies might have said quaintly, 'he teased our hearts.' He was eating it up!

I had a cosmic experience in that darshan line too. I bought a wedding dress at a yard sale in Beverly Hills and wore it in the darshan line and then got it all wrecked in the colored water at Holi. All I can think about those cosmic moments is that if you tell yourself long enough that 'this is the most important moment in my life,' well, then it is! Funny that every moment has the potential to be like that, and I don't need fatso.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Dec 13, 2001 at 02:56:40 (EST)
From: PatC...forget ''If you think I'm sexy''
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: What music did hippos in tutus dance to..
Message:
...in Fantasia? The Dance of the Hours? Or, as that comedian used to sing it, ''Hello fahdah, hello muddah, hello sistah, hello bruthah.''

Ting tong tittle tittle tah etc.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:27:26 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Ulf, I just had lunch [nt]
Message:
But I do remember sitting on some guys shoulders at one of the biggest Holi's in Miami singing 'Come on and hit with your best shot, FIRE AWAAAAAY'. And rocking on!

Now, I'm gonna hit Maha with my bet shot. FIRE AWAAAAAAAAAY

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:57:26 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: real lunch
Message:
Me to, i also was eating it all up .

I was thinking that ,,, ofcourse it is all looking very cheap
and the reason it is looking cheap.

Is because ,, the real message do not need to be delivered
in a way that we can really accept.

he do not pay into this world at all

that means ; that we get the real meaning of life via his dance
but we also get the change to leave , the moral and knowledge of this world behind us.
well, we had to do that , or leave

thank you M . for your wisdom

you are my everything

Ulf

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:18:50 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: All
Subject:
Message:
Just tonigth saw a show with Rod Stewart
One of the songs was : do you think i am sexy.?

Do you remember when M came out dancing to that song First ?

Do you remember how you was feeling seeing him dancing .

I do , i had to swallow something really big in
my mouth, but i did ,,surrender,,,,,,

i went home almost blissed out

How was it for you ?

Ulf

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:17:39 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: All
Subject:
Message:
Just tonigth saw a show with Rod Stewart
One of the songs was : do you think i am sexy.?

Do you remember when M came out dancing to that song First ?

Do you remember how you was feeling seeing him dancing .

I do , i had to swallow something really big in
my mouth, but i did ,,surrender,,,,,,

i went home almost blissed out

How was it for you ?

Ulf

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 16:31:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I guess he must be a Perfect Master!
Message:
Taliban chief's surprising opulence
December 12, 2001 Posted: 8:23 AM EST (1323 GMT)

Click the arrows to see more images of Mullah Omar's compound


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By CNN Chief International Correspondent Christiane Amanpour

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (CNN) -- In a stunning setting in the foothills of Kandahar's mountains, Mullah Omar's compound offers a few surprises.

A bizarre sculpture sits in the driveway of the man who ordered the ancient Bamiyan Buddhas destroyed. None of the new occupants quite knows what it is.

'My gut feeling,' laughs Abdul Jalil Mujahed, 'is that it's for the deer to enjoy when they come down from the hills.'

New Afghan interim leader Hamid Kharzai and his loyalists are now living in the Taliban leader's home.

They are wide-eyed as they give CNN a tour of the compound's marble and pastel-painted mosque.

VIDEO
CNN's Christiane Amanpour tours Mullah Omar's elaborate compound (December 11)

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Inside, there are chandeliers hanging from the ceilings, mirrored walls and plush carpets. It's a level of showy opulence no one here imagined, from a man promoted as a humble cleric living in a simple mud-brick hut.

The large compound is luxurious by Afghan standards. It has been heavily bombed by the United States, but a survey from the roof shows that the mosque and Mullah Omar's bedrooms were unscathed

Anti-Taliban soldiers now pose for pictures with their weapons on Mullah Omar's double bed. Outside, walking through the rubble of the quarters for guests and cattle, it's apparent that every room had air conditioning -- including the cowsheds. Electric ceiling fans cooled the animals. And to drink, there's running water from taps.

Only 12 percent of all the people in Afghanistan have access to clean water.

'They built this all for the cows, while our people never had these things,' says Saylab. 'This was built with Osama's money ... with the blood of the Afghan people.'

While most people make do with outhouses and holes in the ground, Mullah Omar had tiled bathrooms with shower fixtures and flushing toilets.

He is thought to have fled the comfort of his muraled walls shortly after the air war began. U.S. Special Forces are believed to have raided it for evidence early on.

The evidence found here suggests a leader who, in the name of God, demanded so much sacrifice from his people, but suffered none himself.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 17:23:22 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You got that right, jim
Message:
Premies think it's an effort to do programs, that he has the interests of premies at heart all these years. In one post, we found out Maha made 6.3 Million in one day's work.

Of course, he has their interest, at heart. DUH! Maha exudes the same megalomaniacal qualities for control wealth. That's why there's no limit ot Maha's greed. And that's also why Maha will probably end his life running from authorities with his Talibanish band of renegade premies.

Let's get the movie rights, you guys? ;)


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-

(OT) I am going to bring home a copy of the Inner Circle for the holidays. Do you think you and Laurie would like to see it? You'd be amazed how many Perfect Master and Premie like similarities exist between Maha and his inner circle and Stalin and his inner circle.

Besides the common interest in the message. It is a beautiful Russian movie.

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Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 19:43:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Sure, Deb (OT)
Message:
Yeah, I'd like to watch that. It has to be better than 'Ghost of Mars' which we saw the other night.
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