Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 01, 2002 To: Jan 08, 2002 Page: 4 of: 5


Mirror -:- Awakened (ex)premies -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 12:21:07 (EST)
__ Salam -:- Awakened (ex)premies -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 20:17:28 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Rubber words leads to rubber room -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 16:45:35 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- OK, I'm listening -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 22:39:28 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- I came in late -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 23:23:53 (EST)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: Awakened (ex)premies -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 18:06:19 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- I would like to believe that -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 00:54:13 (EST)
__ __ Mirror -:- thanks for all responses -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 05:49:24 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- I would not waste much time on this -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 23:46:46 (EST)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Yes, it's very 'pretty' ... -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 14:13:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: Yes, it's very 'pretty' ... -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 15:25:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: Yes, it's very 'pretty' ... -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 10:00:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: Yes, it's very 'pretty' ... -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 15:04:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- That's beautiful. :) -:- Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 09:29:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Thanks Anna [nt] -:- Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 11:36:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- That's great, Mirror -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 17:25:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Bravo! nice touch Mirror... [nt] -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 15:38:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Poems about M -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 12:47:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Re: Poems about M -:- Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 09:35:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Heck! -:- Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 12:51:06 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Very pretty website, Mirror -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 13:27:51 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- Rose colored cherry pickin' -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 12:47:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: Rose colored cherry pickin' -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 15:48:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for your honesty -:- Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 00:51:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Mirror, I was reading your website... -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 16:38:01 (EST)
__ __ PatC - Great post Tonette: -:- ''We are born enlightened.'' -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 04:11:04 (EST)
__ PatD -:- Awakening -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:58:14 (EST)
__ __ Mirror -:- Re: Awakening -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 06:05:21 (EST)
__ __ __ PatD -:- Here's my realisation for you -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 19:03:00 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- The Three States -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 16:17:43 (EST)
__ JHB -:- I woke up this morning -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 16:01:20 (EST)
__ Will -:- Re: Awakened (ex)premies -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:45:34 (EST)
__ __ Mirror -:- Re: Awakened (ex)premies/Will -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 08:19:25 (EST)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Enlightenment cannot be known -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 13:06:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- The Advaitan shuffle -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 12:46:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: The Advaitan shuffle -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 15:52:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: The Advaitan shuffle -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 14:42:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Would the body like a nice dinner? -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:53:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: Would the body like a nice dinner? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 07:41:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Ab Fab post, Sweetie Dahling -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:17:46 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Re: Awakened (ex)premies -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:34:36 (EST)
__ __ DR -:- Stupidest line of the week -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:14:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Hey, for awhile it was Howdy Doody -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:23:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ DR -:- Howdy Doody Joe -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 20:42:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- No big deal, okay Doctor -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 00:06:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ DR -:- I didn't buy Knowledge, it was free -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 08:34:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- So tell us what -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 21:42:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ DR -:- err well...... -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 23:25:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- You're clutching at straws -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 23:55:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DR -:- Steady Eddie... -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 00:24:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- money can't buy me love -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 00:46:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ DR -:- Well I'll pay as well... -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 08:17:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Well I'll pay as well... -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 11:06:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ dr -:- Re: Well I'll pay as well... -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 05:43:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Yes, the money's great. -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:40:10 (EST)
__ Peg -:- Re: Awakened (ex)premies -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:26:26 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- I'm with you Peg! -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:33:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Peg -:- Re: I'm with you Peg! -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:28:48 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Enlightenment -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:55:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Enlightenment -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:40:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Mind-bending madness -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:50:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Vicki, Peg and Pat........ Right On. Ditto. nt -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:52:59 (EST)

The Maharaji of Malibu -:- and his Barbed-wire Fence -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 08:26:25 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: and his Barbed-wire Fence -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 09:02:37 (EST)

Boadicea -:- Thanks Pat & Marianne (nt) -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:24:04 (EST)

Boadicea -:- You Guys!!! -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 02:30:48 (EST)
__ AJW -:- What did the Romans ever do for us? -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 15:05:48 (EST)
__ __ Boudicca -:- Re: What did the Romans ever do for us? -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:33:12 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- If Boudicca had been Daya. -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 15:06:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: What did the Romans ever do for us?????? -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 11:07:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Boudicca -:- Thank You Vicki! -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 21:35:58 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Thank goodness you're out of it. -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:09:30 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Hey there Boadicea -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 03:34:12 (EST)

Marianne -:- Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000 -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 01:41:29 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Great work! Name the others -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 13:08:58 (EST)
__ __ Mirror -:- Re: Great work! Name the others -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 06:19:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Don't forget Mel, Sandy ... -:- Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 11:10:17 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Re: Ongoing -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 20:25:20 (EST)
__ bev -:- Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000 -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 10:32:36 (EST)
__ steve mueller -:- Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000 -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:03:23 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Pretty fast work Steve, congratulations -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 06:02:10 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- What a treat, Steve.... -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 04:21:04 (EST)
__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: What a treat, Steve.... -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 01:17:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I'm hoping that you will share... -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 03:36:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: I'm hoping that you will share... -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 15:45:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Steve -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 17:28:58 (EST)
__ __ Anandaji -:- Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000 -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:17:42 (EST)
__ __ __ steve mueller -:- Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000 -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 17:18:00 (EST)
__ Mercedes -:- Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000 -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:16:04 (EST)
__ Boadicea -:- Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000 -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:38:17 (EST)
__ Lesley -:- April 2000 -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 16:56:56 (EST)
__ Anandaji -:- Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000 -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:13:14 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- I thought you were an oldtimer! -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 16:17:05 (EST)
__ __ __ Anandaji -:- Re: I thought you were an oldtimer! -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 16:42:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Most disrespectfully -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 17:03:03 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Anadaji, only three weeks? -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:35:32 (EST)
__ Suzie -:- About June 2000 -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:14:37 (EST)
__ __ Peg -:- Suzie... -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:48:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Suzie -:- Re: Suzie... -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:04:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Peg -:- Thanks epo again .sad for the it illiterate [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:36:10 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- What I have observed..... -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 11:21:12 (EST)
__ __ Anandaji -:- Re: What I have observed..... -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:16:11 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- I don't know what Paree is. -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:00:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Anandaji -:- Re: I don't know what Paree is. -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:26:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- LOL! I thought that's what you meant! -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:38:55 (EST)
__ Peg -:- July or August 2001 epo induced [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 05:26:22 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000 -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:32:21 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- PS And I first posted anonymously because... -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:42:05 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Exit Date Jan 2001,,Forum major factor [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 02:29:17 (EST)
__ __ Vicki -:- Definitely -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 03:07:25 (EST)
__ __ __ PatD -:- August 2000 -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 18:53:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: Jan 99 ish -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:29:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Work with other exs to help premies defecate? -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 20:43:36 (EST)

david m -:- 3 years ago today {suicide} -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:11:49 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- We need to love all children -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 09:25:29 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- And...... -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 05:02:36 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Suicide-it really hurts -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:05:33 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Hello david m. -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 01:18:14 (EST)
__ Moley -:- Re: 3 years ago today {suicide} -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 21:34:49 (EST)
__ Robyn -:- Re: 3 years ago today {suicide} -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 18:02:20 (EST)
__ gerry -:- I remember your post well david -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 15:16:23 (EST)
__ __ Abi -:- Re: I remember your post well david -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:04:57 (EST)
__ __ __ david m -:- Bless all of you -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 10:13:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I've never spoken to you, David -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:29:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ david m -:- Re: I've never spoken to you, David -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 11:32:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You're welcome, David -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 13:42:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Oh Pat, his post is so sad! -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:33:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- his post is so sad! -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 04:25:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Robert, 15 year old friend of ours, -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 22:44:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Robert, 15 year old friend of ours, -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 03:54:01 (EST)

Jim S. -:- A warm welcome to all new posters... -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 00:50:10 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Link to new posters -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 11:58:36 (EST)
__ an old poster -:- A warm welcome to all new posters... -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 11:44:07 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 12:21:07 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: mirror@universalmail.com
To: All
Subject: Awakened (ex)premies
Message:
Dear all,

I have never posted to this forum before and have only recently become aware of its existence. Out of a recent interaction with an ex-premie that I met online, the question arose as to how many people that have followed Maharaji's teachings have, as a result of the lessons learned, and perhaps after having moved on to other teachers, finally experienced awakening to their true nature? Finally discovered for themselves, first hand, that which is referred to with the word 'enlightenment'?
I am not trying to sound big here, I am just sincerely curious to know if in some cases the deep devotion and dedication required by the process of Knowledge has indeed led the student beyond the teaching itself.

About myself, I received Knowledge in 1982 when I was 18yrs old and practiced until 1998. The inner urge to 'know' (like Maharaji himself so often mentions) led me to a deeper inquiry into reality. I moved on to the nondual teachings of Nisargadatta and Ramana Maharshi. Read lots of books, engaged in direct self inquiry and unexpectedly experienced awakening in 1999.

Regardless of Maharaji being 'in it for the money' or whatever, it is obvious to me that my own dedication to practice did have a major impact on my life. I wonder if anything similar might have happened to others as well.

Mirror

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 20:17:28 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Awakened (ex)premies
Message:
Can't believe what I see. something interesting happening here, though I don't plan to read the thread or navigate your site, but I think it's fascinating. You have actually left the juju, found another path and documented it then found this place. Are you serious or are you pulling my leg.

If you are serious, good luck for you. May you stay on the straight and narrow.

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 16:45:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Rubber words leads to rubber room
Message:
Hi Mirror,

Took a look at your site which is a very nice, if not untypical, new age presentation of the 'perennial philosophy'. I guess all I can say is that I no longer believe any of that stuff. None of it. Perhaps that's what they meant by 'liberation', no?

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 22:39:28 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: OK, I'm listening
Message:
The unawakened man’s biggest defense on being asleep is that he is already awake

The awakened man's biggest clue on waking up is that he has been asleep

An unawakened man can only tell you about his dream's

An awakened mans dream's will tell you about himself

Tell us more about your awakening please

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 23:23:53 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: bgsmith@teleport.com
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I came in late
Message:
on this thread for some reason, I have since scanned down through the posts and visited your web site. Very impressive and inspiring I must say, you are on to something.

Strangely enough, just as I started exiting last year I began writing a journal which I titled awakening, I included a few excerpts in the above post.

Could we talk a bit more about this off the boards? would you please email me.

Thank You,
Brian

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 18:06:19 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Re: Awakened (ex)premies
Message:
'When I was young I thought enlightenment would never be achieved. When I was young, I was very naive.' -- Lawrence Durrel (The Black Book)
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 00:54:13 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: I would like to believe that
Message:
I would love to justify my journey with M and my 'experiences' with knowledge to a level that credits the effort and attention expended towards the enlightenment goal as valid. However, for me, the whole enlightenment scheme is just that: a scheme. We are born enlightened. What M is trying to sell is bullshit. Any 8 year old has a better handle on what is real than M himself.
M never showed me real love and frankly, looking at a spectacular fireworks display on the Fourth of July, is akin to any experience I've ever had in meditation, satsang or service. Observing the most recent meterorite shower is also comparable. I've had higher and more profound, if you will, experiences from just being human, not some sort of 'devotee.'
Nope, it's a bunch of hype. But if believing that your time and your life spent following M's teaching and the devotional path was beneficial towards 'knowing the truth' then so be it. At the very least, at times, it was fun for me. Us ex-foot kissers, premies (I still hurl at that label), were and are great people. Just your basic human, looking for love. Too bad, just like Dorothy, in the Wizard of Oz realized, we always had that which we we told we had lost, right in our own backyard.
Nope, the trip M is offering is a con. M's game is finely tuned to confuse and discredit an individal's already inherant being. It's a game and it still flabergasts me how after all the damage and hurt he has inflicted by his little 'game', he can still be playing it. Time for him to grow up and decide to evolve into a decent human being. What M is doing smacks of real evil. I don't like it, nor those that perpetrate it.
I appreciate your post, your sincerity. But when I look at the path I took for a side trip in my life, well, I can definately say, I could of done without it. It was a waste of time, somewhat damaging in what practicing knowledge did to my thinking, my perspective on life, but not nearly as damaging as some people here, on this forum, endured as premies. Not to mention the children of Premies. They will always be the real victims to me.

Take care and your post was interesting to me. I enjoyed it. Thanks.

Tonette

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 05:49:24 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: mirror@universalmail.com
To: Tonette
Subject: thanks for all responses
Message:
I would love to justify my journey with M and my 'experiences' with knowledge to a level that credits the effort and attention expended towards the enlightenment goal as valid. However, for me, the whole enlightenment scheme is just that: a scheme. We are born enlightened.

---

Thank you Tonette. I wholeheartedly agree with what you say. We are indeed born enlightened. No big deal. I guess I am just one of those dummy's who didn't figure that out right away after birth. It took me a long time and a long journey to understand that I was the very source of all my joy and all my suffering. That all experiences come from me and pass through me, but that what I am remains untouched, and that this had been so all along. I call it the discovery of the obvious, but however obvious and simple, it was still the most amazing, humbling and liberating experience of my life.

It doesn't justify anything. Nor does it make feelings of being hurt and deceived any less painful. Quite the contrary. It makes all experiences of joy and suffering more intense, for they are an inevitable and integral part of life.

No one person has a monopoly on Reality and Truth. Not M., not other teachers, not you, not me.
I have personally never felt 'deceived' by M. for his words have always encouraged me to take responsibility for my own understanding of life. I guess we all understand different things at different times, and I just took from his message what I needed to. He always used to mention the 'relentless persuit of one's innate thirst'. The thirst to understand the meaning of life. This persuit was very real for me. When practicing Knowledge couldn't lead me any further, I moved on. I read books, talked to many friends and listened to other 'teachers'. I just had to figure it out for myself, the thirst wouldn't let me alone... :-)
For those of you who are interested in that journey, you can read it on my website http://welcome.to/mirror . However, this is only my journey. I can only share with you how it is for me. Whatever is true for you only you can decide, for there is no higher authority than your own self.

Thank you all for your words and wisdom,

Mirror

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 23:46:46 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: I would not waste much time on this
Message:
Dear Mirror,

I confess I have not had the time to look at your website yet, but I will.
As far as calling yourself a dummy, well maybe you should take a look at that statement. You are not, at least not any more so as all the people here on the forum who fell for the Maharaji Knowledge trip. Alas. Isn't life great? (joke there)
But I guess I am different from you in that I do feel and know I was deceived by M. Oh yes, indeed.
In fact, this Guru, this spiritual leader, this Master is an accompolished LIAR!
And my own personal geiger counter of ethics and morality does not allow me to dismiss my little side trip of knowledge as 'part of the path.' Nope, Maharaji has wrecked too much damage to very good and sincere and intelligent people for him to walk away rich and untouchable. He took so much spiritually, emotionally, financially and physically from many, many people. Don't you think it is right and just for him to help mop up the mess? Maharaji certainly has the ability and resources.
Oh yes, the great enlightenment path, our spiritual beings, our souls. Well my advice is take a kid to a baseball game. It is all the same. Or better, is adopt some child who no one wants. Read and teach reading at your local school. Visit a recluse or an old person. It will take you farther than anything Maharaji dictates. By exiting your self and your self centered ways and self centered thinking, you do get to understand the universe and this world. I can't see that Maharaji has ever done that.
Name me one thing thing that Maharaji has done for humanity that is noteworthy. With all his wealth and the excellent talent that surrounds him and willing people, name me one thing he has done to improve and help those less fortunate. Giving Knowledge and fucking up people with his Hindu trip does not count.
No, I was deceived, lied to and Maharaji was not some sort of innocent bystander.
You lie, you set it right.
You steal, then you give it back.
That's how it is with me.
Maharaji has alot of work ahead of him. I can only hope someone will make him do it.

Fondly, Tonette

ps, you are not a dummy!

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 14:13:51 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Yes, it's very 'pretty' ...
Message:
and slick-looking site, but I find it a little irresponsible that you list 'Guru' Maharaji as your first inspiration, unless you are unaware of what has happened since you were first 'inspired' by him, and the implications of what 'devotion' to him actually means. Reminds me of another website, where someone mentions what a big pearl he is on their necklace ... just more obfuscation of the scam involved. And it's interesting that you are another 'no name' website subtly promoting Maharaji.

By the way ... FYI, you've got a few typos in your quote of his. A cap is needed on the first ''I't will bugg you.' And where does the double 'g' on 'bug' come from?
[ "Inspirations" ]

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 15:25:24 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Yes, it's very 'pretty' ...
Message:
and slick-looking site, but I find it a little irresponsible that you list 'Guru' Maharaji as your first inspiration, unless you are unaware of what has happened since you were first 'inspired' by him, and the implications of what 'devotion' to him actually means.
Reminds me of another website, where someone mentions what a big pearl he is on their necklace ... just more obfuscation of the scam involved. And it's interesting that you are another 'no name' website subtly promoting Maharaji.
By the way ... FYI, you've got a few typos in your quote of his. A cap is needed on the first ''I't will bugg you.' And where does the double 'g' on 'bug' come from?


---

For what it's worth... responsible or not, my 'inspirations' are mentioned in alphabetical order. The implications of what devotion to him means are different for every one. I can only tell my story, just like you can only tell yours. We all have a different version of life.
I am not a no name by the way. My name is mentioned on my website on the contact page. I have been using my cyber nickname for over three years and are better recognized by that one than my own. About the typos? Strange I never noticed that (nor anyone else). I guess my command of English is still not perfect. Thanks for your response.
Mirror

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 10:00:08 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Re: Yes, it's very 'pretty' ...
Message:
Hi Mira,

I'm assuming that you mean 'chronological' rather than 'alphabetical', and I understand.

I looked for your 'contact' page but couldn't find it, but it doesn't matter. Wrt the typos, I didn't notice any anywhere else, in fact your site is of excellent quality (scratch 'slick', I was feeling a little cranky yesterday) and those typos were for that reason rather glaring, especially the 'bugg' because it reminded of its root word which my mother always reminded me of if I used that expression. And if your poetry is any indication, your command of English is excellent. You remind me of a friend of mine, Gunila Edgren, who wrote this poem which I'm choosing to post for your because of its reference to a 'mirror'.

EDGE
The edge of autumn
cuts through the air
and finds my heart
while it views itself
in the mirror of your eyes.

The photographs at your site are beautiful ... did you take them yourself? And I have also enjoyed a number of the books you mention.

Thank you for your response.

Anna

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 15:04:51 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: mirror@universalmail.com
To: Stonor
Subject: Re: Yes, it's very 'pretty' ...
Message:
Yes of course I meant 'chronological' silly me. Because of your serious advise and the sincere openness of people posting and supporting each other on this forum, I have added a note to M's quote on my website. Thanks for imparting the truth as you see it. It helps me gain a lot of clarity. I love the little poem, and no the pics aren't mine, but royalty free web material (except for the one M. picture of course).
Mirror
[ Inspirations ]
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Date: Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 09:29:01 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: That's beautiful. :)
Message:
As much as I may have wished that you would make some change, I am somewhat amazed by the note you added, and it tells me as much about your integrity as it does his lack of it. I think it makes your site much more than pretty; there's something beautifully human about acknowledging that a real path is not always simple or easy, and often leads us through some disappointments.

I first found this site when I was trying to understand the strange behaviour of a former email friend of mine, who turned out to be a premie after having basically denied his intense involvement and putting down his fellow premies in general. I have had many friends who have been involved in various cults, and have been solicited to join theirs and many others as well. Before I came here and learned more about how corrupt and manipulatively abusive all too many of them are, I had simply accepted that others may have found their path, even if I hadn't. I wondered at times if I was maybe too proud to 'devote' myself to a guru, but something in me kept telling me that while many may deserve honor as great teachers, I could only devote myself to 'Whatever-It-Is'. (I also learned here that my (non)concept of 'God' was not the same as that of many others, so I hesitate to use that word now.) Over the years I've tried to practice what has rung true to me. In some yoga classes, when others have pranammed(sp?) to a picture of their guru, I have pranammed in the direction of the sun. I have also resisted using any mantra while meditating for some reason, maybe because they have seemed so insistent about it - even the 'Christian' meditation group I went to a few times (Ma-ra-na-tha ... 'Come Lord, come' in Aramaic)! I guess after learning more about how some spiritual teachers confuse and snare many who are acting in good faith, in a loop that often leads them further from their original goal, I have become less passive about the issue, but I was still surprised by how much I reacted to seeing m's picture and quote at your site. I guess it's because of so many wonderful exes whose often traumatic and damaging experiences with m I've learned about through getting to know them here, and through email and telephone conversations with a number of them. There's so much more I could say, but I'm sure you get the idea.

Thanks again,

Love,

Anna

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Date: Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 11:36:15 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Thanks Anna [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 17:25:02 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: That's great, Mirror
Message:
I just read your little caveat added to your mention of Maharaji on your site:

Note: though I wholeheartedly acknowledge the importance of Maharaji's encouragement to follow up on one's inherent need to 'want to know', the man behind the message himself is of questionable integrity.

I have spent over 16 years of my life dedicating time and effort to his practice and organization (Elan Vital), but I strongly advise against anyone wanting to join his mission.

For more information as to why, you may visit www.ex-premie.org.

That is very helpful to aspirants who may find your website when looking up Maharaji. It's important that people know both sides of the story. Many thanks and welcome to the forum. I hope that you will enjoy this little cyber-community.

PS I did read your website sometime last year and found it interesting. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you.

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 15:38:57 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Bravo! nice touch Mirror... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 12:47:01 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Poems about M
Message:
You might like to read some poetry with balls which displays, I think, a more aware and enlightened attitude than the pap usually penned about the guy.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 09:35:44 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Re: Poems about M
Message:
Hi John,

Of course I've read your poems ... but can I say that I generally prefer the poetry I read to have a subject other than m, even if it has balls? ;)

Happy New Year to my fellow 'never a premie'!

Anna

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Date: Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 12:51:06 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Heck!
Message:
I meant to post to Mirror, but as sometimes happened I read the replies that had already been made to her post and ended up replying to one of those (yours!) instead.

I think I'm thru with writing Unholy Trinity now. J'accuse was the first; the Shell Man the most recent. Just as with people who exit the cult I felt a lot of anger and revulsion towards Rawat and his methods when I first pieced together and understood the nature of his scam and the damage it does.

I know my modest efforts have had some degree of success in giving folks a laugh and even helping to systematise and firm up people's insights. But mostly I've enjoyed demonstrating I am Rawat's superior in that field. But all here are Rawat's superiors in the gentle art of being human!

If you are interested in other stuff I've written, you may wish to check out the main contents page for my poems.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 13:27:51 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Very pretty website, Mirror
Message:
I've bookmarked it and will read it. Thank you.
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 12:47:20 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Rose colored cherry pickin'
Message:
Mirror,

I understand some of what you're saying, but it seems like you're not really addressing the parts of it you didn't like, and the parts that were actually harmful. For example, you say:
'I have personally never felt 'deceived' by M. for his words have always encouraged me to take responsibility for my own understanding of life. I guess we all understand different things at different times, and I just took from his message what I needed to.'

I don't have the time to find all the quotes, but I also remember, amongst things that could have been considered inspiring, yelling and screaming that we don't even deserve to look at guru maharaji, all sorts of screwed up stuff about devotion to him. All sorts of insinuations and statements -- that continue to this day -- in his message that people are lost and need a master, need him. All sorts of guilt trips.

It's easy to look at the whole thing in a la de da way now that you're out of it. Either you were only periferally involved, or you're cherry picking the good which is fine, but denying the bad. Personally, I'd rather see things for what they are. Tonette's made some great points.

I do agree wholeheartedly with some of the other things you say, however, and welcome.

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 15:48:04 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: Rose colored cherry pickin'
Message:
I understand some of what you're saying, but it seems like you're not really addressing the parts of it you didn't like, and the parts that were actually harmful. For example, you say:
'I have personally never felt 'deceived' by M. for his words have always encouraged me to take responsibility for my own understanding of life. I guess we all understand different things at different times, and I just took from his message what I needed to.'

'Me not feeling deceived explained':
Reading many posts here I found out how much some of you are suffering as a result of their involvement with M. and practicing Knowledge. People feel deceived and ripped of after their discovery that M. as a person does not possess the integrity that they had always believed him to have. Obviously people feel lied to, because M. did not bring what he was expected to.
I guess me feeling not deceived in that sense, comes from my perhaps different outlook on M. from the very beginning. I received K. in 1982, missed the larger part of the ashram/hindu era, I stayed till 1998. To me M. was only a means to an end, never an end in itself. When I didn't get to that end with his help, I moved on.

I don't have the time to find all the quotes, but I also remember, amongst things that could have been considered inspiring, yelling and screaming that we don't even deserve to look at guru maharaji, all sorts of screwed up stuff about devotion to him. All sorts of insinuations and statements -- that continue to this day -- in his message that people are lost and need a master, need him. All sorts of guilt trips.

Yes I am very familiar with subtle abuse. It happens all the time when we put someone else's requirements before our own.

It's easy to look at the whole thing in a la de da way now that you're out of it. Either you were only periferally involved, or you're cherry picking the good which is fine, but denying the bad. Personally, I'd rather see things for what they are. Tonette's made some great points.

No two eyes see the same thing. Seeing things the way they are... there is no such absolute. The good and bad are both included in all we see, but which parts are good and which are bad is up to the eye of the beholder.
I am very glad to get to know your stories and viewpoints. I am convinced they will influence and change my own. And as I grow and evolve my story will change too. What was one day good might be bad tomorrow. As my viewpoints on M. change and evolve, I will certainly add those insights to my story, for it can only make it more complete.

I do agree wholeheartedly with some of the other things you say, however, and welcome.

Thank you Francesca,
Mirror

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Date: Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 00:51:32 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: Mirror
Subject: Thanks for your honesty
Message:
I'm always glad to hear a fresh voice.

I found this website after I had left also (many years after I'd left), and althought I had been put through a major mindfuck by Maharaji (I had been an ashram premie and got K in 1973), I had moved on. I don't think I ever faced how much poison I'd eaten along with the sweet, and I had friends and family that were still premies.

This Forum was a good place to help me face many things in myself that had made me succeptible to gurus. I consider the whole thing to be half my own doing. Me and Maharaji; sort of a match made in hell.

I knew that Maharaji was less than an honorable person -- I lived in Los Angeles during the 'Malibu days' in the mid to late 70s and knew that M kind of lived the 'high life' although I did not know the true extent of it until reading this Forum. But even that was covered up in the Hindu conditioning that a guru is beyond reproach, that what 'he' does is 'teaching,' and that he doesn't have to play by the same rules as us mere mortals. We were told an old Hindu story, I remember, about a guru who was found drunk in the gutter with a prostitute, but the 'true devotee' recognized their master and was not deceived by appearances.

Once one accepts that they no longer can use their own discrimination and intuition and that 'the Master' is so far beyond us and above us that we'd never understand, we are caught in the trap. The reason I was able to walk was that M was such a lightweight as a teacher that continuing on my own path, I naturally kept going at a certain point and left him behind. He certainly does not live what he says, and his words thus lack much conviction or depth.

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 16:38:01 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Mirror, I was reading your website...
Message:
....and I realized I had read it before quite a while ago but the design seems different. Anyway I will read more as I am enjoying it.

I'm not into any ''spiritual'' stuff anymore but I practice gyanyoga for mental health and peace. We all have different journeys and different perspectives.

I just wanted to say welcome to the forum and I am looking forward to hearing more from you. Happy new year and may you have many more.

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 04:11:04 (EST)
From: PatC - Great post Tonette:
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: ''We are born enlightened.''
Message:
You said: ''M's game is finely tuned to confuse and discredit an individal's already inherant being. It's a game and it still flabergasts me how after all the damage and hurt he has inflicted by his little 'game', he can still be playing it. Time for him to grow up and decide to evolve into a decent human being.''

What if you were a Christian and a Christian preacher offered to put you in touch with Jesus who supposedly lives in the sky in his human body which was sucked up there in the year 33? You couldn't actually see Jesus but could talk to him by IM on the net.

Now what if you were a Hindu who worships cows and you met a guru who told you that you could see the divine light of Brahman by squeezing your eyeballs? I could easily see some dumb bible thumper falling for the former and I can see some dumb Hindu falling for the latter and as far as I see it Knowledge is on the same level as talking to Jesus on the net. Hokum.

I shouldn't post after I've had two glasses of wine. I'm just agreeing with you (''We were born enlightened.'') Religion is a bunch of hooey. Maybe it will make sense in the morning or then again maybe it won't. b)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:58:14 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Awakening
Message:
Finally after all these years ,someone who says out loud that they've realised Knowledge. You must share what this is with all the world. i.e us on this forum.

Regardless of Maharaji being 'in it for the money' or whatever, it is obvious to me that my own dedication to practice did have a major impact on my life. I wonder if anything similar might have happened to others as well.

Rawat certainly had a major impact on my life,but beyond having taught me to take 10 deep breaths before acting rashly in a stressful situation,I'm not sure he got me any closer to the light that shines brighter than a million suns.

Is the visualisation of that light within yourself what you mean by awakening ?

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 06:05:21 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: mirror@universalmail.com
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Awakening
Message:
Finally after all these years ,someone who says out loud that they've realised Knowledge. You must share what this is with all the world. i.e us on this forum.


---

I tried to explain a little in my response to Tonette... but truly the more is said about realization the sillier it gets. Enlightenment is honestly nothing special, yet the most profound understanding one can have. It is not another trip, another experience, another event. It is realizing oneself as that in which all those trips and experiences of life appear. This includes all the bad and all the good experiences. All the wonderful things we have done, and all the stupid mistakes we have made. No one is absolved of that. Life includes them all. I am sure M.'s life includes them all, I'm sure your life includes them all.
Understandng this principal of life brings forgiveness of oneself, forgiveness brings healing, and healing brings peace. Other than that, there are no benefits whatsoever.
Love to you,
Mirror
[ Page Link ]

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 19:03:00 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Here's my realisation for you
Message:
I heard a Dominican priest say much the same as you in his Christmas Day sermon. He used a different frame of reference mind you , different metalanguage (gag),I believe some call it.

I'm not knocking that sort of enlightenement,far from it,being agnostic I like to keep my options open. It's just that I feel you fell in with the Lord of the Universe a decade too late.

If you'd got big K in 72 then enlightenement really gave you a bang for your buck. The pitch then was dissolving into an internal nuclear explosion, where you would merge with the primal energy that created the universe. On reappearing in the world of illusion, your lightbulb like qualities would then attract the rest of the human race to beg you to tell them who had flipped the switch for you in the 1st place.

I know it sounds stupid now, but that understanding or something like it ,really fucked up the heads & lives of thousands of people,& Rawat peddled it.

You mention forgiving yourself : I don't have a problem with that, that's the easy bit, forgiving Prempal......not yet Josephine.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 16:17:43 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Mirror
Subject: The Three States
Message:
According to somebody (Hindu tantra gurus, maybe?) enlightenment involves being fully awake and aware in all three states: wakefulness, dream, and dreamless sleep. By that standard, I am not enlightened. Are you?

In fact, I am not enlightened by any standard.

I have come to discard the idea of enlightenment that I had while a premie: that enlightenment was a state to be achieved. The problematic approach to spirituality. 'Life is a problem to be solved; the medicine of spiritual practice will solve this problem that is my life.'

(I am not jumping on you for your use of the term, Mirror...i have great respect for R. Maharshi and am sure you agree with me here.)

There are a few exes that continue to practice meditation of one kind or another, but we do not usually discuss this here. (I not only have a practice [quasi-Tibetan Buddhism], but a - gasp - teacher, one who lives in relative obscurity in Taos.)

Like you, I don't regard my involvement with the DLM cult as an unmitigated disaster. Choosing GMJ as a guru was pretty stupid, but my genuine hunger for spiritual growth has borne fruit for me, before Maharaji, during Maharaji (despite the fact that he's a fucking con artist), and after Maharaji.

Many here are disillusioned with everything about spirituality. For all I know, they may be right and I might be wrong. I can't prove that my meditative experiences mean anything. They may be solipsistic illusion or worse. But it feels right to me, and at least I'm using my brain this time around. Banishing one's intellect from one's life has got to be one of the stupidest cultiest things we ever did as premies.

(BTW, I can't respond to anybody until tomorrow cuz I gotta finish work, go work out, go to the store, pick up my kid, and go home where our computer doesn't work.)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 16:01:20 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: I woke up this morning
Message:
Tell me, Mirror, when you experienced 'awakening', apart from it feeling good, and some questioning part of your mind becoming silent, what did it do for you that was worth all the effort?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:45:34 (EST)
From: Will
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Re: Awakened (ex)premies
Message:
Dear Mirror,

Your post is awfully vague. Perhaps you assume that other awakened ones will know what you're talking about.

Are you saying that your true self is a mirror? But can a mirror see itself?

Did you become a student of Gangaji or any of the other Maharshi clones?

What happened unexpectantly in 1999? Please explain a bit.

I'm conscious and I'm aware that I'm conscious, but I'm still a limited expression and there's lots of things I don't know. So am I enlightened?

Personally, I don't think dedication is helpful here. Dedication is for when you want to be something but you don't necessarily want to do the doing of it, like being a good violinist. Similarly, why should we devote ourselves to 'the process of Knowledge?' Why should we devote ourselves to any imposed process other than the process of living? And you say 'deeper inquiry into reality.' Another troublesome concept - do you mean to imply that duality is unreal?

I have a feeling that your own dedication to a practice did not have as much of an effect as you seem to think. Would you not have matured into awareness anyway?

Can you explain a little more, without assuming we accept all the buzzwords?

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 08:19:25 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: mirror@universalmail.com
To: Will
Subject: Re: Awakened (ex)premies/Will
Message:
Your post is awfully vague. Perhaps you assume that other awakened ones will know what you're talking about.

Sorry about the vagueness. Still haven't found the right words to explain myself. To some, saying it in 'this' jargon suffices, to others saying it in 'the opposite' jargon will do. Truth is... there are no right words to refer to awakening or to that which is neither awake nor asleep.

Are you saying that your true self is a mirror? But can a mirror see itself?

LOL !! Mirror is a mere cybernickname given to me by a dear friend when I bought my first computer and hooked on to the internet.
A mirror in itself has neither a need nor the ability to see itself. I would give you all kinds of nice and philosophically correct explanations, by I have none.

Did you become a student of Gangaji or any of the other Maharshi clones?

Oh yes I have read most of their books and visited some of them. Very interesting people each one of them. No different from my neighbor or my collegue. Same clones all over the world. Truly every human is the same one.

What happened unexpectantly in 1999? Please explain a bit.
I'm conscious and I'm aware that I'm conscious, but I'm still a limited expression and there's lots of things I don't know. So am I enlightened?

Knowing and not knowing have nothing to do with enlightenment. Enlightenment cannot be known, nor does it lack knowing. You enlightened? By what definition would you like to assess that? Enlightenment is undefinable and unconditional. It simply doesn't depend on your or my definition of enlightenment. Any definition would be too limited.

Personally, I don't think dedication is helpful here. Dedication is for when you want to be something but you don't necessarily want to do the doing of it, like being a good violinist. Similarly, why should we devote ourselves to 'the process of Knowledge?' Why should we devote ourselves to any imposed process other than the process of living? And you say 'deeper inquiry into reality.' Another troublesome concept - do you mean to imply that duality is unreal?

Duality unreal... errr? What if it is much simpeler than that? What if there is no difference between what is real and what is unreal?
Presence, beingness, the ground of awareness, duality, nonduality... all useless concepts if not understood by that which cannot be captured into a concepts. And indeed very very troublesome, I agree.

I have a feeling that your own dedication to a practice did not have as much of an effect as you seem to think. Would you not have matured into awareness anyway?

Of course I would have. Consciousness is always arising. There is no end to it. This is how it apparently happened, but it is still a tremendous paradox... for it was already so before it happened.

Can you explain a little more, without assuming we accept all the buzzwords?

I do not ask you to accept anything. Please delete all the buzzwords that sound uncomfortable to you. Not taking anything for granted is the most important tool of discernment. Use it. Always. It is your greatest ally.

With love,
Mirror

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 13:06:31 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Enlightenment cannot be known
Message:
Mira (Mirror): Enlightenment cannot be known

Wittgenstein: Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent.

That line is the last in Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. Wittgenstein described his philosophy as a kind of therapy and wrote that its purpose was to 'show the fly the way out of the fly-bottle.'

I think you might enjoy the poetical expressiveness of Wittgenstein's Tractatus, and find the work as a whole highly evocative.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 12:46:22 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: The Advaitan shuffle
Message:
Err...

Hi Mirror,

I'm glad you are bringing this up, because it's a bit of an elephant in the - ah - satsang room, this thing about enlightenment vs. awakening.

We as premies were on the freeway to enlightenment, variously described and hinted at in the early days - merging into the master, becoming one with the light etc. It was DEFINITELY goal-oriented, wasn't it. I travelled with Mahatma Umesh Dhar in the 70s and he claimed that since a particular darshan with MJ he had been seeing light constantly (so why did he run off with Mata Ji later?).

This 'climbing the mountain by his grace' approach to the spiritual path drove me nuts, but like many here, when I exited (in 1984) I had had enough absolutely fabulous experiences beyond consensus reality that I was still pretty committed to the 'spiritual path' or whatever I called it. I was surprised to come across Advaitan philosophy, which is a completely different animal of enlightenment/awakening from MJ's devotional Grand Prix. One is just supposed to wake up and realize that one already 'has it,' or 'is it' or to experience one's oneness with the field within which everything arises. This is mostly achieved through mental techniques, i.e. being harangued by a Poonjaji clone asking you 'who is thinking that thought?' etc. etc. or by 'self-inquiry.' (More or less the same thing done internally).

I wasn't into being harangued by anyone, including myself, any more, but by other means, more embodied and integrated, I might say, I found myself, to great surprise, 'waking up' and realizing that the whole thing was just a creation and not serious, and various other possible ways of describing it that would fit better into one of them books with 'I am' in the title. I found this hysterical, and the underlying sense of this awakening became a part of my life in the form of a much greater sense of humor. I felt that this was a much 'truer' and frreer enlightenment than the ridiculous eyeball pushing and fundraising of MJ.

But I also noticed the tendency when I got too far into this cosmic humor, to lose my personal compassion. It took me a while to rectify this (this was all in the 80's). And I have certaintly noticed this tendency to be 'above' or 'too spacious for' personal compassion, among Advaitan teachers, supposedly the cream of the crop. Where I live there are tons of them - this is where most of the Poonjaji illuminati first hit town (SFBay area). Although they provide a service or clarity and perhaps 'awakening' for people, they also seem to subtly and subconsciously avoid and abjure the worlds of body and emotion. I know several such teachers who have appalling situations with wives and kids. So I've come to take the whole thing as just another interesting flavor, rather than the 'source of all flavors' that it claims to be.

Life is very Baskin Robbins to me.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 15:52:23 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: The Advaitan shuffle
Message:
Thank you Katie, good to hear you found your own way.
By the way... enlightenment, self realization or whatever... it is not a cure for everything that is wrong in one's life. It is life...
Love,
Mirror
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 14:42:01 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: The Advaitan shuffle
Message:
Hi Katie,

Nice post. I was harangued by one of them Advaiters, Nick Arjuna Ardaugh once. I even have it on tape. It's hypnotism, I think. I'd like to see what the brain imaging profile looks like in the clutches of these 'experiences.'

The advaita idea of asking 'who is asking the question?' and 'who am I?' and closely watching one's though processes can lead to some funny places. Some of it is trained dissociation: You ask yourself 'Would the body like a nice dinner?' 'Would the body like to take a walk?' (No, but I'll take toke on that spliff, bud)

But what's the point? Sounds like more parlor games to me. Those guys should all get jobs. After all, didn't the great Poonjaji work as a humble engineer all his life?

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:53:33 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Would the body like a nice dinner?
Message:
Ha ha ha that's hysterical, Gerry.

Ah yes, my old friend Arjuna! I think you and I discussed this years ago actually.

Trained dissociation. Yup. Well... what I feel, actually, is that like so many things or even everything, this is a matter of both/and. (Was that a clear sentence? Who wrote it?). I think that there is some value to thought experiments like the advaitan interrogation, as long as they are balanced with the experience of being TOTALLY identified with and embracing and attentive to the nuances of one's thoughts, feelings, bodily sensations etc. I personally like the freedom of swinging both ways, and actually I teach this in my seminars in a humorous kind of way.

But along the lines of trained dissociation: for some odd karmallocious reason, I have many friends who are 'into' Advaita and related Zen-type stuff, including several who are acclaimed teachers of this; but when they are traumatized they call me for good old personal love and egoic reassurance. Sometimes I get a bit frustrated when after helping someone ground and become ordinary and have feelings and so on, they feel better and then leap back on the 'impersonal' bandwagon. It can be the ultimate spiritual superiority trip, in a way. Everything 'personal' is ranked lower than the impersonal, and these dudes, at least while performing, are totally one with the impersonal viewpoint. Sometimes I feel like I am cleaning up the messes of silly little boys playing at spiritual oneupmanship. AND I also acknowledge that there is a valuable experience of freedom available in not being totally caught up in the tiger that has swallowed you - so to speak.

Hope this makes a bit of sense and that you are still around in this conversation Gerry, as this is rather interesting to me compared to much else around here.

love and larfs, Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 07:41:20 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: mirror@universalmail.com
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Would the body like a nice dinner?
Message:
Thanks Katie, for your valid and refreshing points. I deeply acknowledge the dangers of conceptual nonduality, they lead to a disassociate state, a split reality, a delusion of impersonality as absolute truth.

I believe it is important and to our benefit to always look into our own beliefs and assumptions, again and again. Not by rejecting them as invalid and replacing them with a new set of beliefs, nor unconditionally embrace them as the absolute truth.

This is hard, sometimes even ruthless. Especially when it comes to getting rid of deeply engraned premie-concepts. Embracing the 'doubtmaker' as a valid part of one's integral self, might be the hardest of all.

Mirror

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:17:46 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Ab Fab post, Sweetie Dahling
Message:
Well, we live in the land of Advaita, Zen and Ramana (Just keep saying: ''Who am I?'') Maharshi. Our rather intellectual New Agers prefer their spiritual stuff slightly agnostic and with a bit of a mental challenge but, as you say, they can sometimes get too abstract.

Half my customers practice something or the other and many of them seem to be happier than premies and some of them are actually very soothing and sweet to be around. I've gotten to be able to tell when they've just come back from ''mindfulness'' retreats. :)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:34:36 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Re: Awakened (ex)premies
Message:
Regardless of Maharaji being 'in it for the money' or whatever, it is obvious to me that my own dedication to practice did have a major impact on my life

I agree with this statement 100% and it was certainly true for me. It was my own 'dedication to practice' or maybe just 'dedication and faith' that gave me whatever 'experience' I had as a premie. Maharaji had nothing to do with it, except to be the object of my dedication. I think that's the main, very hard, lesson I learned on becoming an ex-premie. Maharaji had nothing to do with whatever benefit I was getting from the 'practice' and the cost to me to continue the 'practice' in the way Maharaji prescribed was astronomically high.

The bottom line is, if you are 'dedicated' and 'grateful' to anything you believe in, you will have the experiences of 'dedication' and 'gratitude.' I think the whole point of growing up is knowing what is worthy and valuable to be dedicated and grateful to, and whether the object of your dedication gives back equally in return. In my experience, Maharaji fails miserably in both areas. Not only did he give nothing back, he never gave a crap about any of us.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:14:07 (EST)
From: DR
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Stupidest line of the week
Message:
''Maharaji had nothing to do with it, except to be the object of my dedication.''

It defies comment.

Good one Joe!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:23:16 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: DR
Subject: Hey, for awhile it was Howdy Doody
Message:
Who was the object of my dedication. It was still dedication, just another object.

What's 'stupid' is allowing yourself to be conned into thinking that Maharaji has something to do with whatever nice experience you might be having. He used to call is 'grace' which was some kind of power that operated through the ethers affecting your life. Now I don't think he uses that word anymore, but he still deceives people into thinking he has some affect on their "experience" and they couldn't have it without him. But once you know the emperor is naked, that trip is over.

It was the same con game his father played and Maharaji learned it well, and it has paid off financially for him, that's for sure.

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 20:42:50 (EST)
From: DR
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Howdy Doody Joe
Message:
I think we get affected by what we choose in this life. It's nothing to do with deception.

I have to confess that on the very rare occasions that I hear Bob Dylan talking...I get very affected!! My choice.

It's all part of the affection and devotion that I have felt for him (Bob) for over thirty years as a result of our interaction, mainly - he sings -I listen. For me it's exactly the same with M. He speaks - I listen. No big deal.
Bob Dylan has a billion$ record company behind him. M has a group of supporters to help him promote his offering. No big deal.

Both parties are ongoing and evolving with the times, both have made booboos, both have had triumphs.

Just like you and me bro...

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 00:06:27 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: DR
Subject: No big deal, okay Doctor
Message:
Sure we get affected by everything.

The weather
Our age
The allignment of the planets some allege.
Our friends
Our lovers
Our children
Our nation
Our diet
ect. ad nauseum

But , if you meet someone who tries to sell you something that is a lie, take for instance, a Rolex watch, at what point do you feel and know you are deceived?

At at what point to you, do you categorized this 'as a big deal?'

When children were raped and you cover it up?
When you accidentally killed someone are don't take responsibilty?
When there are many people you influenced and they are still begging for an explanation, via this forum and other avenues, and you ignore them.

What exactly is a big deal to you?
An atom bomb?

It's a big deal to me obviously, and still very dangerous in my observations.

Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 08:34:54 (EST)
From: DR
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I didn't buy Knowledge, it was free
Message:
and having just seen the way you talk to your 'friends' I dread to think what you'd send my way!

So let's just walk our walk eh?

no big deal

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 21:42:54 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: DR
Subject: So tell us what
Message:
m's booboos are.
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 23:25:50 (EST)
From: DR
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: err well......
Message:
he gave K to you guys for a start!

But it was You who asked for it.

Remember?

Now why did you go and do a silly thing like that, and then abdicate any responsibility for your incorrect decision?

Beats me.

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 23:55:25 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: DR
Subject: You're clutching at straws
Message:
I don't think prem would agree with you. He has stated that 'I have not lost a premie yet'....so you can argue that one with him.

Anyway what are the other booboos?(you did say boobooS(plural)).

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 00:24:18 (EST)
From: DR
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Steady Eddie...
Message:
Another booboo was not accepting my family's generous offer of taking over the Peak's Crossing Property Portfolio in 1991 and allowing our trust to complete all the necessary upgrades and improvements using our links with Lend Lease. They could have effectively created the entire site infrastructure and set in place easy and simple maintenence proceedures on a five year review basis. It was development on a grand scale and LL were very excited about it because it would add to their list of accomplishements and look great in their yearly reports.

In short, we could have had five star accomodation for 5000 people (for up to a two wek period). All buildings and roads could have been completed within a projected two year period. It could have been like an Aussie bush Club Med by now, swimming pools, tennis courts, supermarket, theatre, the lot.

We consoled ourselves in the knowledge that a previous PM had also declined an offer to complete his ashram complex in India, prefering to see the project come to pass through the enthusiastic efforts of his students rather than from the cheque hand of one wealthy person.

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 00:46:01 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: DR
Subject: money can't buy me love
Message:
We consoled ourselves in the knowledge that a previous PM had also declined an offer to complete his ashram complex in India, prefering to see the project come to pass through the enthusiastic efforts of his students rather than from the cheque hand of one wealthy person

So it wasn't a booboo!!!!!

Why don't you just admit that everything m does is perfect...even if he runs someone over in his jeep. He only made that happen so that some premie could do the service of covering up for him. Why can't people see that.

As far as my receiving knowledge, you can blame it on Sam Bender who paid for me to travel 2000 or so miles to receive it.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 08:17:10 (EST)
From: DR
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Well I'll pay as well...
Message:
How about $100k and a 9 month visa to Aus so you can help code a new computer game I've come up with?

I need good computer scientists to crack the whip over the coding team....

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 11:06:08 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: DR
Subject: Re: Well I'll pay as well...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 05:43:31 (EST)
From: dr
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Well I'll pay as well...
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:40:10 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, the money's great.
Message:
Maharaji has made some real bucks ripping people off!
He also owes some BIG, BIG, BUCKS to the people he has hurt!
Shit, even after he makes good, if ever the United States Justice System attends to him, he'll still be well off.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:26:26 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Re: Awakened (ex)premies
Message:
What is awakening? I really would like to know what you mean by this as (being a new and very dissillusioned ex) I find myself supremely cynical about such matters. I am very curious though as to what enlightenment, self realisation, awakening are... are they different things to different people or what.

The answer to your question is no, for me, I haven't really wanted to do any kind of spiritual thing... taking a break.

Peg

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:33:45 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: I'm with you Peg!
Message:
Though I did watch the Pope on Christmas eve, only because I was sick and couldn't sleep. It was interesting watching him without the 'if only he knew the lord incarnate was here' mentality I've had for so many years. I'm just starting to feel alive again and I have no desire to transfer to anything else at the moment. Although I am decluttering my house, or attempting to, which seems appropriate!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:28:48 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: I'm with you Peg!
Message:
Hi Vicki

About the pope..Yes what a relief not to have that secret 'knowledge'. My father died recently and it was so good that I was no longer wanting him to get knowledge and no longer having M between us as a father substitute.
I sort of regret that I never told him he was right ('Its just a cult'...'He's after your money') but honestly, maharaji just paled into insignificance and didn't seem important. His true position!

The best way to declutter, I found, is to move home. Good luck with it though, and feel free to boast of the glory when you've done it. It might inspire me.

Peg

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:55:20 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Enlightenment
Message:
In England during my wandering sanyassi days, 68-73, when I carried all my possessions in a knapsack, one of the ''material attachments'' I would not part with was a dog-eared copy of ''Zen Flesh, Zen Bones'' (I think edited by Alan Watts.)

One of the few stories that I remember from that book goes (and I paraphrase - probably inaccurately because I have not seen that book in almost 30 years):

A student goes to a zen master to be enlightened. The master gives the student a koan and tells him to meditate on it and then to return and report his progress after one year.

The student returns after one year and tells the master that he has realized that, ''everything is god, the trees, the sky.''

The master says, ''You are not yet enlightened. Meditate for one more year.''

At the end of the second year the student returns to the master and says, ''Now I am enlightened because I see that I am god.''

The master says, ''You are not yet enlightened. Meditate for one more year.''

At the end of the third year the student returns and says to the master, ''Well, I have to give up practicing zen because I have realized nothing. Now when I look at a tree all I see is a tree.''

The master says, ''Now you are enlightened.''

Actually for me now my ''enlightenment'' is that I feel lighter not carrying the burden of trying to be enlightened. Life is beautiful.

The one smart thing Rev Rawat said recently was a truism (of course - isn't everything smart he says already been said before?): ''If you knew what you had, you wouldn't want any more.''

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:40:44 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Enlightenment
Message:
Pat, how come it's always the poor premies who always don't know what they have and subsequently wouldn't want more? He always wants more more more more and then some more. He has never for one second that I've been around not wanted something, either from us emotionally, spiritually or financially. He is never satisfied with anything, or he would have quit asking for money a long time ago and been happy with the family he has, and not addicted to cigs/booze/hash/sex/adoration. We weren't allowed one tiny thing. I remember him talking about the beauty of this world, the gardenias being created for us then turning around and berating us for liking anything in this world because we were all gonna die anyway. Guess that's why Daya needed a restaurant.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:50:44 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Mind-bending madness
Message:
Yes, exactly, Vicki. Aren't you just so glad to not have to try to make sense out of his insanity?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:52:59 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Vicki, Peg and Pat........ Right On. Ditto. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 08:26:25 (EST)
From: The Maharaji of Malibu
Email: None
To: All
Subject: and his Barbed-wire Fence
Message:
I was just reading something that had to do with the former Soviet Union and the countries on its border. The author pointed out that the barbed-wire fences on the borders were slanted 'in' so as to keep the citizens of the U.S.S.R. from escaping. They weren't worried about people entering the country.

This got me to thinking about The Maharaji of Malibu and whether he is more concerned about people escaping his realm or entering. There are many contradictions in his words and actions but this much seems clear. There are more defections from his cult every year than there are new additions. In terms of the direction of the barbed-wire, we have evidence of satsangs warning us of turning into rotting vegetables or being eaten by sharks if we jump ship. We have evidence of viscious CAC attacks on those former cult members who dare speak out against The Evil One from Malibu.

We have evidence that in order to entice new membership, current members have been duped into attending disguised sales seminars. To me, it seems that Mr. Maharaji knows he will never again attract many new followers but he must make the appearance of propogation to keep the illusion of life in his sad group of followers. The illusion that things are going to get better. We've seen example after example of this for 20+ years.

His real concern is maintaining his current flock so his barbed-wire fence is really turned 'in' while making it appear turned 'out' as in this is an exclusive group.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 09:02:37 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu
Subject: Re: and his Barbed-wire Fence
Message:
You make an excellent point but it would be better made, in my opinion, if you adopted a name instead of using the name field as part of the subject of your post.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:24:04 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Thanks Pat & Marianne (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 02:30:48 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: All
Subject: You Guys!!!
Message:
Well I am laughing out aloud at your posts and feeling completely comforted by all of your expressions of support and concern.

Yes Anth, it was necessary to burn Londinium in revenge. Good thing I got it out of my system too or Amaroo might have been next.

The emotional Roller Coaster that John Mac 'percentiled' (is that a word?) is my total reality right now.

I live alone and as I have already said in previous posts, do not feel emotionally ready to bring the whole House of Cards down on myself by sharing my experiences with any of the premies I am surrounded by.

So I'm doing it Commando Style for now (also without underpants) and all of you are my Support Team.

I am just reading everything posted in the archives and trying to keep current with the daily postings by dropping in every few days.

The stuff about Deca was very informative. I was living in Miami at that time doing Staff Support cooking ( Sandy Stewart)and flowers for the Res with Gypsy Rogers(Przewlocki) I also sold beer at the Dolphins games and I think also at a Poco/Boston Concert.
Gypsy and I worked washing planes at Tamiami Airport to scrape the dollars together to go to programmes.

Also stayed with Michael and Sally Burgoon at Homestead for a while, he helped with the Holi Cannon construction.(Memories of Malaga)

Reading all of your memoirs has triggered my own fading brain cells(of which I now own three)
I find it funny that all of the things i have done, places I have been, people I have met...it is all just a blur, like I wasn't really there at all for a lot of it. Definitely Not In The Moment!!!

My main thrust of momentum was how the hell am I going to get to the next event on the other side of the planet with no money? Where am I going to sleep tonight? When will I eat next?
It's comforting to hear that a lot of you have forgotten chunks of what you lived through too.

I was talking to a dear premie friend yesterday and when I tried to broach a few gentle feelings of doubt that I was having about m, he was surprisingly supportive and open with me, but still the same defense of 'I am having this wonderful experience and he gave it to me so I have this gratitude for him and k' was the premier response.

I remember it well in my own life, No Way could I ever imagine feeling what I do know.

He has never been around m, or people who are around m.

I on the other hand have seen and felt too many discrepancies and compounded with what I have been able to read here, the missing pieces are forming into a very clear picture.

All these years of slave labour done absolutely willingly, with the gladdest of hearts which was trampled in the dirt nearly every time.

I am soon expecting a call to help prepare for the next event at Amaroo and i am not ready to know what to do or say when that happens.

I just want to take some time to be by myself with no demands on me , socially, mentally or physically.

I am Very withdrawn right now, but I feel strong at my core and i know i will get through this eventually.

I cannot thank you enough for your fearless efforts to hold a light up to this.
If I am wrong and have made a terrible mistake about m, then he should forgive me.....

If I am right, then I am right and the joke is on me...either way.

I am so tired of all the Secrecy and Grasping that goes on in his world, it is soooo elite.
Then to be fed the party line about not having th 'Right Understanding' by idiots who are only there to use your back as the next rung on their way up the stairway to heaven, is more than insulting it's crazy making stuff.

Well, enough of that.

I am wanting the Happiest of New Years to all of you Dear Cyber Friends.

May the Warrior in you live to fight another day.
All my Love
Boadicea XXX

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 15:05:48 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: What did the Romans ever do for us?
Message:
Hi Boudicca,

It's over three years since I quit the cult. It was reading EPO and the forum that tipped me over the edge and gave me the space, support and information I needed to sort myself out when I left. I remember the first time I posted here, anonymously. I was sweating and my fingers were trembling. I felt like something terrible could happen to me, but it didn't.

I also remember when I posted my Journey off to Brian from my neighbors PC. I was extremely nervous about that too. All that happened was an old premie pal, had a little chat with me. I'm pretty sure he'd been talking to Glen Whittaker. One of his biggest issues with me was spreading malicious gossip about Jagdeo. At the time I never realised the consequences of what I'd written, but looking back, it's obvious I'd touched a nerve. Anyway the rest is history.

Once you've admitted the Emporer is naked, it's all over. Everything tumbles into place all by itself. Everyone goes through the same things when they quit, and soon arrive feeling much better about themselves and their life.

The uncomfortable feelings soon disappear. The questions are all answered, and you begin to get in touch with your real self and your true feelings again. No more supressing your natural instincts. You discover you have the ability to call a pile of crap for what it is, instead of making excuses for it, or believing it's going to turn into a golden turd, if only you surrender more.

We are leaving a mental prison. While have been members of a religious cult, life has been going on, on the outside, all the time. Now you can join in again with enthusiasm and common sense. Instead of misguided, blind faith.

Of course it's all going to end one day. But it's also going to end one day if you're a premie.

I'm just grateful I can go through the rest of my life making my own mistakes, having my own uncensored thoughts, being myself, and bowing down to nobody.

The Captain and his cult contain the seeds of their own destruction. It looks like they've taken root and are doing well. All we have to do is get on with our lives again.

Hang on in there Boudicca. If you could flatten Londinium, a bag of Hippy-Hindu mumbo jumbo shouldn't be too hard to flush down the loo.

Take care

Anth the Pict.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:33:12 (EST)
From: Boudicca
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: What did the Romans ever do for us?
Message:
Dearest Anth Ji the Pict,
Your messages warm my heart and make me laugh.. this is a goood sign..
Ok so now I'm crying.. Damn those mood swings.
I shall stay agoraphobic for a bit until I gather my strength to face the world again.
I am not afraid anymore that I shall spontaneously combust upon doubting m. Though I am still a premie in the meaning of being premature in this experience and like a raw nerve. I have so many conflicting feelings which I find are assuaged by listening to all of the honest and blatently clear experiences of all the people who post here.

I used to think - How amazing it would be to be born as Daya, or any of his children for that matter. To experience a life of just being completely loved for who you are from the moment of birth. I would watch Daya and feel sad that I had to go through all of the shit that I did before hearing about m as a young teenager.
I would wonder about how complete and secure as a human being that would make me feel.

HA!

Well now Knowing what I do know...that is the last family i would wish to incarnate in. I can now see that they are overindulged spoiled princes and princesses. Having their slightest wishes fulfilled along with raja, Marolyn and any hanger onners in the immediate inner sanctum.

I remember seing Marolyn looking a bit lost and asked her if I could help her in any way, she was looking for someone and I said 'Stay here I'll go and get him for you' as it was quite a chaotic, maze like area where we were. Well I chastised myself for years over that. How dare I tell Durga Ji to do anything, let alone 'Stay Here'
Fucked up yet again...

Spiritual Gymnastics are the event I excelled in for 28 years of my life. Jumping through the hoops placed before, inside me.
Placed by m and myself in a superhuman effort to be loved and accepted by my God on Earth.

Blew that too.

That is why I am happy that you are all here. A good belly laugh is all that lies between me and the title of wettest log in the universe.
I know that while I can still laugh at myself, with you, at you all, I'm going to be O.K.

Warm Thoughts to you
Boudicca the Celtic Pagan

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 15:06:41 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Boudicca
Subject: If Boudicca had been Daya.
Message:
Hi Boudicca,

If you had been Daya, I would have been your teacher for a while. It's not too late. Write me a 1500 word essay on the negative aspects of joining a religious cult by 9 oclock Monday morning.

And now something a bit more difficult. Write me three sentences on the positive aspects.

Anth, who used to wish he'd been Brian Jones, and would be dead now if he had.

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 11:07:36 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Boudicca
Subject: Re: What did the Romans ever do for us??????
Message:
Boudicca,

I haven't written to you before but have been enjoying your posts very much. I empathize with your feelings, they closely resemble mine just a few short months ago. Amazingly enough, those few, short months now seem like another life that belonged to another person. I call it nothing short of a miracle. And it was the forum and EPO that held my sanity together.

Unlike you, I was never close to Maharaji. After receiving knowledge in '74, I was the dutiful little premie-ji that never for one second doubted he was the lord incarnate. I used to marvel at his family and felt extremely inferior in trying to raise my own two children. I did everything I was supposed to do short of moving to LA to be closer to the lotus feet.

When I learned all about the real facts, I felt like I had cracked into a million pieces. The deep saddness was overwhelming, yet I couldn't tear myself away from the computer. I was thirsty alright, thirsty for truths and facts that had been hidden behind the veil of secrecy.

My family thought I was losing it, not having yet told them. When I finally got the courage up to tell my husband, who received knowledge thanks to me, he just got a wry smile and told me the things he had always felt were 'off'. I was very scared to tell my children, believe it or not, because they had been spoon fed on Maharaji since birth, and now were of the age wanting to receive knowledge. So for me, this came at exactly the most appropriate time. I couldn't bear the thought of my kids involved in this lunacy. And I've only told one of my longtime friends.

At first, it was sad that the premies who I've spent the last three decades with are basically gone from my life. I occasionally talk to one. And I missed it all because it had been my life for the majority of my life. Not anymore. Something happened and it's just called time. The process of talking out all I was feeling, no matter how mundane, here on the forum must have allowed the healing to happen sooner than I ever dreamed possible. I never thought I'd feel quite right for the rest of my life. But little by little, day by day, I find I'm feeling much better. I think this new year helps. I'm not a sequential person, but this year I've mapped out things I'd like to try accomplishing that I could have thirty years ago. I'm giving myself a year, and if they don't work out, then I'll change course.

I was watching the conductor Segie Osowa (spelling mangled) who is just magical. And I find out he's been making the Boston Symphany into a supreme symphany for exactily as long as I've had knowledge! I found that almost funny, if it weren't so pathetic. But still, all the abuse doing service certainly is good for giving a person some steely resolve to face adversity.

I imagine with your service background, you have lots of traits and talents that will take you far. It's really a confidence builder to try things out in the world and be successful at them, one little baby step at a time.

I don't miss the idea of Maharji anymore, and I just pity his family where I used to adore them. They are one bunch of screwed up kids, no matter how talented they are. Did you ever wonder how talented you might be if you had the perks they had growing up and still do?
Their lifestyle is an insult to all the premies who paid for it.

So the biggest surprise is, I don't miss it anymore. Sometimes I wish I had stayed incognito to have kept access into the cult, but then again, I'm healing nicely and I don't know if I could have being in such close proximity to that world of constant want and abuse.

Be well Boudicca. Your value as a human being is priceless.

-Vicki who still marvels at seeing a rainbow Christmas morning

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 21:35:58 (EST)
From: Boudicca
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Thank You Vicki!
Message:
Dear Vicki,
I want to thank you for your reply to my post.
I wrote you a long heartfelt letter which was wiped as my net hrs ran out & I got bumped off the net, losing it all.

Really... this is not an excuse!!!

talk about pissed off....

I am still educating myself in the wooley ways of virtual communication and it sometimes proves to be most frustrating.

ANYWAY... You helped me today by voicing exactly what I am feeling and I thank you.

It is difficult extricating myself in private and it is interesting how my new found cyber friends have been the most accepting as opposed to 'Real Time' premie friends.

I cannot imagine having children and enduring all of this.
Or maybe they are a beautiful grounding factor and help to keep what's important to the fore.

Anyway, I shall never know personally as I always Truly Understood that the ways of the world were a distraction and I wanted to devote myself COMPLETELY.
So a relationship and children were not conceivable in my world.
HA HA the joke's on me!

To old to do anything about it now.
That is one of the casualties of my cult thinking.
To which any do or die devotees would say 'm never said you had to do that'
Well I disagree and here I am.

Starting my life at 43. Emotional age, who knows, try 14 when I first entered stage left.
'Heavens to Mergatroid' quote Snagglepuss.

Well it is a compliment to the tenaciousness of the Human Spirit that all of these wonderful people are here on this site.

Picking themselves up, dusting themselves off and starting all over again.

I am honoured to be in such a company Dare i say.. of truth.

Even though I am a solitary animal, One of the main things I was sad about losing was the community of like minded people known as premies that for the most part were Kind and Compassionate and aspiring to the noblest of things.

Well, I do not feel as fearful any more.

Thank you all for being here.

Boudicca/Celt, Boadicea/RomanXXXX
P.S. I hope you will allow this bit of artistic/poetic? license in spelling as my mood suits. It feels good to play a not be Synchronised.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:09:30 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: Thank goodness you're out of it.
Message:
With hindsight which is always perfect I see that the seeds of this elite and twisted cult were there right from the start because the seeds of the corruption were in Rev Rawat. The deceit, secrecy and sociopathic status-seeking in the cult were direct reflections of Rawat's corruption.

Our highest ideals of peace and love for all were twisted into a money-making scam. I'm glad you're out of it and you will soon be very grateful. ;) I am. Everyday I thank my lucky stars that I got out of a cynical and mind-bending cult.

The timing is different for all of us I'm sure, but after the first couple of months I began to feel true to myself for the first time in years and it just has gotten better all the time to be able to think straight and not have any shameful secrets or a weird guru that I was ashamed of. It's getting better all the time. :)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 03:34:12 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Boadicea
Subject: Hey there Boadicea
Message:
Belated welcome to the forum and exland. I've been reading your posts and chats with people here. I've been out for years and years -- since 1976 -- but I well remember the emotional and psychological rollercoaster that I experienced when I left the cult behind.

As I mentioned to Chris below, everyone has their own personal reasons for leaving Maharaji and the cult behind. We are here for you -- to help you sort through the sorrows and loss of friends and community, the confusion and concern about whether you have made the right choice, the anger over squandered life opportunities, and the hesitant, then increasingly confident steps towards a life devoted to yourself, your family and friends, and towards healing any wounds you suffered. There's no right or wrong in all of this. And sometimes, it's one step forward and two steps back. That's life. Real life.

I post under my real name and encourage others to do so too. If you've been reading for a while, you know that our courage earned us a nasty cyber-attack by twisted premies. I hope you will be able, one day, to share with us your real identity. As it seems you are an Aussie, I can understand your discomfort at giving your real name right away, given the vicious personal attacks which have been made against other notable recent Aussie exes.

Thanks for adding your wonderful new voice to our chorus.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 01:41:29 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: All
Subject: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000
Message:
Hello everyone. I am curious about the number of folks who exited the cult since January 2000, and whether EPO and/or the forum helped you to decide to leave. Just interested in how many who are here have gotten out in the last two years... Could you tell us when you left and whether EPO and/or the forum were part of the process?

Thanks.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 13:08:58 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Great work! Name the others
Message:
Thanks so much for all of your replies. It is wonderful to read all of your comments. I thought that it had been a banner year for EPO, and I was right. What's more - it seems as though Captain Rawat's events resulted in more than a few premies finding EPO and leaving the cult behind.

Now, I know that there are some new exes whose names are missing here, for whatever reason. If you know of someone who left since January 2000, and who posts here, please add the names to the chorus.

Here's a few:

From the threads below: Doug
Chris

Others: Jenny Byrne
John Macgregor
John McDonald

Thanks again.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 06:19:48 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: mirror@universalmail.com
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Great work! Name the others
Message:
Thanks so much for all of your replies. It is wonderful to read all of your comments. I thought that it had been a banner year for EPO, and I was right. What's more - it seems as though Captain Rawat's events resulted in more than a few premies finding EPO and leaving the cult behind.

Now, I know that there are some new exes whose names are missing here, for whatever reason. If you know of someone who left since January 2000, and who posts here, please add the names to the chorus.

Here's a few:

From the threads below: Doug
Chris

Others: Jenny Byrne
John Macgregor
John McDonald

Thanks again.

Marianne


---

You may add my name too. Mira, the Netherlands, received K. 1982, exit end of 1998.

Mirror

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Date: Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 11:10:17 (EST)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Don't forget Mel, Sandy ...
Message:
Don't forget Mel Bourne, Sandy (Sanford Pass), Deputy Dog, Elaine, Skippy ... or has someone already mentioned them?

And a Very Happy New Year Marianne!

Anna

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 20:25:20 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Ongoing
Message:
My exit process was and is ongoing. Layer by layer I continue to become free.

I quit practicing K in 1987 after a Knowledge Review where m said to us 'you know, you don't HAVE to practice knowledge'. It struck me as both arrogant but true. I realized on the spot that I had thought I did have to practice. I stopped cold turkey within a week for 7 or 8 years after having practiced K daily for 15 years.

I hadn't seen M or practiced K until he did a K review in 1995 or so in Vancouver, BC. I went and really enjoyed being reintroduced to the simple practice of K and did that for awhile. The experiance was what had drawn me in back in 1972 and the trip was presented as all about my experience and no devotion. So I went to Long Beach and liked the vibes and hanging with my old buds but sort of tolerated the rest. The slo-mo devotional videos, the harangues from the stage, the fawning audience, the Divine Mall and the Photo Worship Gallery.

I asked my friends about the obvious devotional trip that I thought M had evolved beyond. I got no clear answer from anyone. Out of habit and hope for a more humanitarian trip, I went to Long Beach twice more. My friends were fun but the coginitive dissonance was much greater due to my honesty about what I was seeing and feeling. That, coupled with information I read on EPO and early Fora, made it intolerable to accept M & K. I actually found myself sitting hoping for liberation or some such 'White Knight' salvation. That was the biggest drip, realizing that M & K was all about submission and, frankly, I had almost no respect for M by then.

Thanks to those who've assembled EPO and all of you who choose to tell your stories on the Forum. Each person must decide for themself what they choose to believe. It's good to have information with which to decide.

Richard

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 10:32:36 (EST)
From: bev
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000
Message:
Starting reading after the Seattle M event this past December and quickly discovered what I was thinking all along thanks to EPO. My partner, on the other hand, is still deeply connected to m.
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:03:23 (EST)
From: steve mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000
Message:
Hi everybody. As soon as I learned of EPO from a premie on Thanksgiving Day, 2001, I couldn't wait to get home and start digging into it. I had been raised in a very strict, very Catholic family (sister was a nun, uncle was a priest, I had been in the seminary myself - I even pushed my classmates into buying $5 pagan babies as a kid) and had come to expect a high standard of behavior from people in the God business. Words just cannot describe the absolute horror and disgust I felt when I learned of all the despicable crap that M had done or had condoned. It took about 10 nights of total immersion in the warm, soothing, cleansing and deeply satisfying waters of EPO (thank you to all of you EPO contributors who made that possible, thank you, thank you, thank you) to wash away 29 years of very very deep and crusty brainwashing crud. So, late on Sat night, Nov 30, 2001, I knew that I had become an ex. There was no turning back. Leaving M was not diffi-cult at all. In fact, I was so excited about it that I couldn't wait to break the news of how beautiful and how liberating the EPO ocean was to the local premies here still stuck in R's iddy biddy little well. I spent $120 doing mailings of the most shocking stuff to a dozen premies. As far as I know, none have been moved by it - yet. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that because we here in the Twin Cities are physically so far removed from the scene of his crimes, it is easier for people to continue to pretend that they are part of some wonderful movement instead of being hapless victims of one of the most vile and despicable but successful con artists the world has ever seen. Lastly, I just want to mention that recently I have been deriving immense satisfaction and inspiration from reading and re-reading the astounding and incredibly intense journey by an ex known as Father Love. I'm an incurable romantic myself and, like her, I 'didn't come all this way and go through all I've been through just to give up and slink away back to the pub because the silly little guru got lost in his robes during the dress rehearsal and never really made it out of the changing room.' I couldn't agree with her more that 'the torch is there burning as brightly as ever for those with the guts and determination to pick it up and carry it.' I hope I never lose the courage or the desire to do so.
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 06:02:10 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: steve mueller
Subject: Pretty fast work Steve, congratulations
Message:
And you posted right out front with your real name too. I waffled around for about for 4 weeks and I thought I was quick. It really doesn't take long once one gathers together all of the facts does it.

Good to see you here and I admire your initiative to get out and tell your old friends about your newfound realizations.

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 04:21:04 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: steve mueller
Subject: What a treat, Steve....
Message:
....to see your first post. I was wondering how your mailings to your community had gone. I know you were all fired up to tell them and I wondered if you would get the same reception as I did when I told my premie friends. Seems like you did.

I'm just very happy you took the plunge and posted. Your emails have been great and I know I'm looking forward to reading more from you.

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 01:17:53 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: What a treat, Steve....
Message:
As you keep saying, Pat, exing just keeps on getting better and better and better with each passing day. Jeez, if only I knew that giving the Hampster the baragon shaft up his pompous kazoo would have felt this good years ago! Remember that old Divine Times story from Feb, 1973 about the Cow? Well, guess who the lucky recipients of REAL milk are these days? Yep, you guessed it - its us! God, it tastes SOOOOOOOO GOOOOOOOD! Let's be here for the others when they tire of paying homage to the statue of a dead cow.

As far as responses to the mailings go, like yourself, I lost the friendship of my best premie friend. In addition, I received two other responses so far. Someone 'returned to sender' the packet I mailed out to them. I don't know who it was - the mailing address was torn off, obviously they were rather pissed. On the other hand, I received an absolutely beautiful seasons greeting card from (will have to remain anonymous, unfortunately) an absolutely sweet premie lady who, surprisingly enough, has been very active in Elan Vital in recent years. She was so gracious, so loving and totally non-hostile in her response. In appreciation for her sweet tenderness, I responded to her with an even sweeter and more tender letter of my own on some breathtakingly exquisite stationary from Kinkos. I do expect her to ex some time in the not too distant future. She just needs to see M for what he is for herself. Maybe one of his training sesshuns will be all she needs to see the blight. I have to say that she is one very very classy lady. Her husband has a huge heart also. A very sweet couple. So incredibly undeserving of M and his abuse. Doug (Anandaji), another Twin Citian also recently exed, has contacted me and we intend to stay in touch. So, slowly, but surely, Mpls is joining the ex map. Thanks for your interest in us.

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 03:36:09 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: I'm hoping that you will share...
Message:
...the background to what you just told me with the rest of the gang here because I'm sure everyone who reads your post is going to want to know what you mailed out etc. I know I would be nosy if I did not already know. Your letter to the premies is definitely worth sharing.

It really gets better, Steve. Wait until you are feeling so great one day maybe better than you've felt in years and you realize that it did not come from M or K but is just inside you naturally.

I just said to Cynthia in a post above that I was just thinking that the last thing anybody needs is a guru, let alone Jaba the Hutguru. How can you ever truly be completely at peace, alone, quiet and by yourself when you have an invisible friend inside your head or heart or whatever other organ the guru lodges himself? Impossible. What a scam.

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 15:45:12 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: I'm hoping that you will share...
Message:
Okay, Pat, I‘ll share it.

Pat is referring to a mailing of “Intro to Exing” packets that I sent out to a dozen local premies. These were roughly 100 pages of really good stuff (Mishler interview, etc) from EPO. I preceded this with two “cover letter” pages. Here they are.

Page one . . . . .

Hello.

You are among approximately a dozen or so recipients in the Twin Cities who received this packet.

To the extent you care to know this, I’m no longer “following” Maharaji. I have become what is referred to as an “ex” (short for ex-premie).

One of the things I’ve tried to learn is to respect others’ beliefs even if I disagree with them. Because I wish to continue to respect your humanity and your right to believe what you want, I have not gone into reasons why I decided to stop following Maharaji in this paragraph. If you do not care to know more than the little I have said so far, just chuck this into your waste basket and forget it and me. Or, perhaps you may want to hang on to it for a day when your curiosity and possible beginnings of disenchantment motivate you to read further.

(. . . . . basket chucking time (optional) . . . . .)

So, I am assuming that since you are still reading, you ARE curious as to why I have decided to fold my devotion tent after nearly 29 years. For that, read on to the next page . . . . .

Page two . . . . .

As I said on the first page, I no longer consider Maharaji (M) to be a credible teacher of anything spiritual and far less do I consider him to be anything remotely approaching a living Perfect Master. What I have learned about him disgusts me enough that I have no further desire to follow or support him in any way.

I’ve had doubts about many things concerning him over the years. The first one that didn’t make any sense was why M required ashram recruits to fork over ALL of their worldly fortune to him prior to virtually becoming his slaves. This should have told me something about his real motivation but, like many gullible and naïve young people I’m sure, I chose to ignore my gut instinct on this one. Then, years later, after they had forgone career, education, family, fortune, normal worldly pleasures and had endured other privations such as worn-out clothing, and poor medical and dental care just so that they could make him a very rich man through their labors, M rewarded their dedication and loyalty by coldly closing their ashram homes and tossing them onto the street.

There are many other reasons why I despise what M has done and is still doing but the straw that broke the camel’s back for me was learning of M’s condoning for years through his silence the years of child molestation that one of his famous mahatmas, Jagdeo, had perpetrated in both the U.S and in England.

On a less serious level but no less revealing, most recently we were lead to believe that M sincerely wanted to meet with small groups of premies for face-to-face meetings right in their own communities. After several local premies got their hopes up and spent considerable efforts to put together a letter inviting him, M not only dashed our hopes, but, for the umpteen millionth time, he did just the opposite and forced us to yet again fork over several hundreds of dollars (needed by our families and our rapidly approaching retirements) to travel all the way to Miami to see him as part of a huge crowd with little or no possibility of the kind of intimate communication that he earlier had dangled in front of us. It really seems like all M wants to do is gratify his massive ego with rock-star-like glorification by adoring masses of followers - and to get very rich in the process.

Many formerly close to M (called PAM’s) have recorded a multitude of the shocking facts concerning M’s previously hidden private life (drugs, drinking, mistress of 15 years (selected by his wife), other sexcapades, multimillion dollar yacht, auto hit and run, X-rated PAM's, etc.) and other issues deriving from M’s outrageous and corrupt cult con game. You will find what a few of them have said in the enclosed printed excerpts. I know it must be painful for you to hear someone talk this candidly and, from your vantage-point, so disrespectfully of someone you have loved dearly for much of your life. However, I feel that it is only fair that you at least be given the chance to inform yourself about him. If what you read has the ring of Truth to it, then you will realize that you have unwittingly allowed yourself to become one of his victims. Know the Truth for the Truth shall set you free. The sooner you undo the damage M has done to you the sooner you will be able to break free of his evil and insidious mind control.

To help you learn more about this, I’ve put together an introductory information packet from the ex-premie.org web-site. What you decide to do with this information is up to you.

Good luck.

- Steve Mueller

Ps. In case you were wondering, ever since I've left I still meditate (a term I prefer to the revisionist word: practicing) and derive many benefits from it. The only difference is that M plays no part in it - now it's just me and the formless energy, the infinite power that is sustaining me. I have not turned to rot. Quite the contrary, now that I’m no longer chasing after a 'rock-star' and am relying entirely on my own efforts, my need for sincerity is even greater because there are no artificial cult trappings to support my endeavors to quench my thirst. It really and truly feels like an oppressive yoke has been lifted off my shoulders. Again, whatever you decide to do, good luck.

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 17:28:58 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Thanks, Steve
Message:
I was hoping you would give it a thread of its own but I respect your modesty. Don't be surprised if someone does repost it as a new topic. Great stuff. I'm so glad your joined our party. :)
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:17:42 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: steve mueller
Subject: Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000
Message:
Welcome, Steve. (I will send you email).
I am also from the Twin Cities. Are there any
others from Minnesota or nearby?
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 17:18:00 (EST)
From: steve mueller
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000
Message:
Good to hear it. Yes. So far I know of one person. This morning Doug Mehrkens sent me an email. I never met him but I do recall hearing his name mentioned in the past. His email address is: doug@twincitiestours.com
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:16:04 (EST)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000
Message:
Hi Marianne,
I exited around early February 2001, the website really helped me get some clarity and confirmation of my feelings/perceptions.
Mercedes
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:38:17 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000
Message:
Hello Marianne,
'Deprogramming as we speak'
Jan 2002
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 16:56:56 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: April 2000
Message:
EPO was integral to the process for me. I had got as far as recognising that M was the one who was dividing premies up into a class system largely based on the amount of money they had, and that it was this class system that actually affected what happened to a premie putting themselves forward to participate, not some magical relationship to the 'Master'.

I had realised that far from being a recipe for contentment, meditation, satsang and service were deleterious to my health.

I could not even start to formulate where to go from there, it had not occurred to me Maharaji, and his whole silly message, was a con.

I knew about the planes, how could I not, I knew about the cars and the watches, but I did not know about the yacht. Why not, I asked myself.

I had recently come to the conclusion that the persistent rumours about M having a girlfriend, Monica, were true; but I did not know about the one night stands, it still floors me to think that Rawat would not recognise how extraordinarily mindbendingly cruel it is to have sex with one of his devotees and then refuse to talk to them again; after all, he was the one participating in it.

I did not know about Jagdeo. Moreover, it had not occurred to me that any of the instructors would be less than sincere in what they said from the satsang chair, that their lives could be at variance to the way they presented themselves publically, any more than it had occurred to me about Maharaji. Participating was all about living the truth wasn't it?

It was EPO, Sir Dave's and RogerEdrek's sites that freed me from the cult. It was the forum that sustained me through that time.

Plus, it was the firsthand information that people provided, such as Michael Donner's wife telling of her husband being kicked in the balls by his 'Master', Michael Dettmers' cool recital of his observations of Rawat's behaviour, a very dear person who contacted me because she saw my name on the forum; in short, the stories of all of us put together.

Without these stories, I had only my own observations, and these, by themselves, were not enough to make sense of the nightmares that had dragged me to the depths after I returned home from participating in Amaroo 97.

So, many thanks to all, Lesley Veale.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:13:14 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000
Message:
Well, I've been out for about three weeks! And I give full credit to EPO. I was clueless until I happened upon the site in early December.
I was just floating through life 'having a wonderful experience,' (Actually I wasn't, but I was trying to convince myself, and others, that is was the case.)

Blissings to you all!

Anandaji

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 16:17:05 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: I thought you were an oldtimer!
Message:
Seriously, your name is very similar (if not identical) to an ex who has posted here long ago, and I just assumed you were the same.

Welcome!

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 16:42:49 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: I thought you were an oldtimer!
Message:
Purely coincidental. I am new. I posted earlier as 'Doug,' which is
my real name, but I like Anandaji better. I think it has great marketing potential, just in case I ever wish to re-package my old TM mantra and become a Perfect Master/Lord of the Universe myself. Lord knows, I need the money. All of the adulation wouldn't hurt either.

Any takers?

Blissfully yours,
Anandaji

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 17:03:03 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: Most disrespectfully
Message:
Not a snowflake's chance in Hell

Hi Anandaji, welcome to the beragon burning club.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:35:32 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Anandaji
Subject: Anadaji, only three weeks?
Message:
Well, hi and welcome. You made such a quiet entrance I thought you might have been a regular from the past as I'd never seen your name before. Happy new year and happy new life.

Patrick Conlon, San Francisco

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:14:37 (EST)
From: Suzie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: About June 2000
Message:
I was having silent doubts, but if it weren't for EPO, I'm afraid I might still be in the cult. Thanks to everyone who started this website and who keep it going. It set me free (and eventually my husband, too).
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:48:38 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Suzie
Subject: Suzie...
Message:
How long did Your husband take? I find it hard to understand how it can take so longwhen for me it was inevitable as soon as I read the first Michael Dettmers page. Mine is about half way I'd say..after 6 months!!

Peg

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:04:06 (EST)
From: Suzie
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Suzie...
Message:
I was already kind of falling away when I found EPO, but I didn't say anything to my husband because I thought it would be too confronting to him. But after I read EPO for a few weeks, I couldn't hold it back and started telling him what I felt. I printed off some things and then, about a month later, he went to EPO and read for about 30 hours straight. Then it was all over for him, too, although it was touch and go for about another month.

We didn't say anything about it to our premie friends, we just stoped participating or talking about Maharaji anymore. Gradually they got the message, and some rejected us and some didn't. After a few arguments, we just don't discuss it with them, nor they with us.

Since then, it seems everything has improved, and I am so glad to be rid of all the lies, repression and bullshit. It's so liberating to be done with it. Like AJW said, once you see the emperor is naked, you can't ever pretend again he has clothes.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 21:36:10 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Suzie
Subject: Thanks epo again .sad for the it illiterate [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 11:21:12 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: What I have observed.....
Message:
What interests me and fascinates me the most about those who finally wake up is: How many choose to go back to M's world?

I wonder.
Kind regards to all, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:16:11 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: What I have observed.....
Message:
Once they've seen Paree, it's hard to get them back on the farm.
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:00:52 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: I don't know what Paree is.
Message:
You took the time to post to me so I would love to be able to understand it. Enlighten me, as they say in premie land.

Tonette

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:26:38 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: I don't know what Paree is.
Message:
Wow! This is too cool. You actually asked for enlightenment. You are the first person to honor my aspiring career as a Lord of the Universe Wannabe. I am doing
cartwheels as I
t....y....p...e....

Ok, my child, now to answer your question:

'Paree' is how people from Paris pronounce it.

Wait, wait! Don't go away: There's more wisdom where that comes from. I'm on the cusp of omniscience.

Remember: Truth is the consciousness of Anandaji.
Leave no room for doubt!

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:38:55 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Anandaji
Subject: LOL! I thought that's what you meant!
Message:
Hey, we've been there done that, just by using the word omniscience, well, dang gone it, you might be Master material! I could help but only if you would be willing to cut me in fifty-fifty. Okay?

Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 05:26:22 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: July or August 2001 epo induced [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:32:21 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Recent ex head count since Jan. 2000
Message:
Left Jan 1st 2001 - the final of three steps. I especially recommend the first step for any premies who have not seen the cult up close for a while and are still harboring romantic notions about the Rev Rawat's ''work.''

First step out was back in. Returned to do service in cult in latter half of 1999 after being out of premieland (but ''keeping in touch'' with Rev Rawat through videos and some events.) Increasing dis-ease about secrets, lies and videotapes (too carefully edited and designed to portray Rev Rawat as a ''master'' when it was obvious that he was just an ordinary human being.)

Increasing questions and dissatisfaction with what I thought was the problem then - EV. Then I read Mishler on EPO and begin to wonder if EV was the problem or if it was Rawat. I began to see that it was probably the latter and decided to read the DLM Papers and the Journeys.

I still avoided the Forum because there were too many strange people called Dog and Runaround and Catweasel, Phil and Oliver etc and well....I did not know about anonymous trolls then. They gave me the creeps and I questioned the value of joining in the conversation.

Meanwhile I read the Indian background and decided to check out the history of the yoga. What I found out freed me from any last superstitions I had about the techniques being a big secret. Then Dettmers posted and I began to look at the forum more seriously.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:42:05 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PS And I first posted anonymously because...
Message:
I was scared of the cult. Some of the people I had met since going back into the cult gave me the willies and I would not have put it past them to retaliate. Eventually of course they did in the form of the CAC attacks.

But I have no regrets about coming out. It's like walking in a brightly lit street in a dangerous area. If you walk in the dark with the predators who lurk in the shadows then no one can see when you are attacked. I prefer people to see me in the bright lights. That way they are also more likely to see who comes pouncing out of the dark.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 02:29:17 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Exit Date Jan 2001,,Forum major factor [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 03:07:25 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Definitely
Message:
It's been such a blur that I don't even know when the exact date was, but it was this year sometime after the Mainz program. EPO and the forum were the deciding factors that opened my eyes to the secret world of Maharaji and knowledge.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 18:53:34 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: August 2000
Message:
That's when I 1st got connected to the internet & in order to see if it was true that you could find out stuff about almost anything I typed in Elan Vital,which led to EPO.

At that point I'd had no connection at all with the officialdom for about 15 yrs,but through old friends who kept me informed of the Pied Piper's whereabouts & got me tickets to events,I'd generally managed to see him once a year or so when he was in England or Europe.

I'd long ago given up any attempt(as per instructions)to suss him out & had frankly forgotten the 70's.

He certainly belonged in a special place in my affections. In a box marked don't disturb. I had, & have, opinions about everything from foxhunting to the IMF,many of which are at odds with what a lot of other people think,but the Bollixshwar floated like a lotus just out of the ken of my rational mind.

EPO changed all that overnight. Although a great deal of the information on the internet is skewed,discrimination is all,& it very quickly became clear to me that I'd been taken for a sucker.

Too many references to things I'd heard whispered about & then forgotten, explained by the people who'd witnessed them 1st hand.

I could go on at length, but it's clear. Any premie who never knew anything much about the domestic arrangements of the Perfect Master,or about how his organisations worked,& has the power of thought,cannot go on believing that Rawat is divine after reading EPO.

The forum seemed to me then to be full of people who'd had it really bad cultwise, (ashrams,Deca,& so on) & I was afraid to put in my feeble outrage at being spiritually raped but having escaped getting pregnant.

It isn't the ex-cult leaders who've posted here,welcome & informative though they've been,but the ordinary joe's with their reminiscences of what it felt like to carry a sandwich board through the streets when fired up on god consciousness,that make the forum a force for freedom.

I haven't really got a down on you Michael Dettmers,although I did have when you 1st started posting,before Thelma arrived with the anti anonymity campaign,it's just the confidentiality agreements......the confi...

Love to all: Pat Dorrity Stratford-upon-Avon.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:29:31 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Jan 99 ish
Message:
felt neutral about M. for 25yrs.

Then curious and went to a couple of Programs.

Saw M and thought he looked like a flamin alcoholic. He message was so rinky dink I thought what a load of crap!

Came home + got on net to see what I had missed in EV.

Found EPO

Never Looked Back.

Work with other exs to help premies defecate.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 20:43:36 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Work with other exs to help premies defecate?
Message:
You're soooo uncultivated, Zelda. :)
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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:11:49 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 3 years ago today {suicide}
Message:
I would like to thank everyone who helped me thru a very tough time..you all were excelent ..I use to post quite a bit but have become a avid reader of the forum.. first i must give my congrats to all the new posters on the forum you have made the forum a stronger place and the truth really shall be known for all to see..to Katie,Robyn,Marriane,Helen,Ellenand the rest of you great people my heartfelt thanks for everything you have done for me..I will never forget this day 3 years ago..Please Love your children and give them a big hug today..They are so precious...much Peace and Love...david m
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 09:25:29 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: david m
Subject: We need to love all children
Message:
Children are special. Yes, indeed. They are not little adults.
They have that magical perspective. If anyone knows what the experience of life and love and truth and bliss is about, it's the children who walk this Earth.
The death of a child is beyond the claims of the word tragic. For whatever reason.
The death of a child from suicide is beyond what any human being should be asked to bear.
The death of a child (one's own) from suicide is beyond my ability to either ever cope with it, much less than heal from it. I hope you can do that, David.
I know that Robert's death, will always be a dagger in my heart, tears that easily flow, unrequested.
A child who commits the unrevocable, impulsive act of suicide is a victim. A victim of a cruel confusing world, a victim of a being a soul who feels too deeply and too much and too exquisitely.
I know this will always be with you, as it is with me.
I would like to say that I admire you because I don't think I could make it thru.

Take care,
There is love. And I hope, but cannot prove, that one day we both will be able to be with those in our lives we have loved and lost once again.

Godspeed,
Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 05:02:36 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: And......
Message:
I do and will continue to love my children. My 17 year old 6'2' son gets a hug every day whether he wants one or not!
My daughter, age 11, well we get pretty mushy most times with each other but she's that way. Geez, some nights it's a slumber party. It's fun to read in bed with each each other and curl up, and talk in the dark. I wonder what the freaking child 'experts' would do with that one!
Yes, they are precious. I wish, I could bring back yours.
I will follow your request and feel terrible for what happened to you.

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:05:33 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Suicide-it really hurts
Message:
I think the suicide of one of my son's friends, a neighbor, a boy 15, who I knew since age 3, is the single most profoundly saddest event that has ever happened to me. It has been 9 months and especially, during this holiday time, I have been crying over him more than usual.
It's like it has happened yesterday in some ways. I hurts way worse than the sudden death of my brother, at his age of nine, when I was 17.
I have no idea how I would be able to weather the suicide of my own child. Not even a clue! My hats off to you.
Words are so shallow in some ways when trying to express to you a bit of my feelings.
I miss this boy, terribly. If only I could of been there during that fateful moment and stopped him. But that is not to be and there is no way to turn back the clock, dammit.

Kind regards
Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 01:18:14 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: david m
Subject: Hello david m.
Message:
Hi david. I have been thinking of you these last few weeks and wondering how you are doing. 3 years have gone by since you lost your daughter in the most difficult way. It hardly seems so much time has passed. I know the ache and loss must still be with you every day. I learned the same lessons as you from the suicides in my family -- love your friends and family without restraint, and tell them that you love them early and often. You never know when that chance will be lost forever.

Take care of yourself, much love, Marianne

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 21:34:49 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Re: 3 years ago today {suicide}
Message:
I haven't met you before, but I want to send you lots of love

Moley

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 18:02:20 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: Re: 3 years ago today {suicide}
Message:
Dear David,
I can't believe 3 years has gone by! You have come a long way in that time, I know and I imagine, in a way, it all seems raw still. All the best to you and yours David.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 15:16:23 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: I remember your post well david
Message:
I hope you doing well david, I can't imagine going through a child's suicide. Take good care of yourself, too.
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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:04:57 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: I remember your post well david
Message:
Dear David,

I truely hope you are healing. My brother killed himself and I know how devestated my parents were. For me it was important not to confuse his death with his life, to cherish the memory of his sweetness instead of focusing on his death.

Take care of yourself

Abi

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 10:13:21 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Bless all of you
Message:
To everyone..Thank you so much for the kind words and encouragement..I choose yesterday to celebrate my daughters life rather than morn her death..this really was a first for me..for years i have been depressed and questioning myself on my life and how i could have not seen the signs of her internal hurt..but i seem to have found a new beggining in myself..I work with High school, {young adults} kids.. in the Theater program and this past year has helped me beyond comprehension..By giving something back to the future of our planet..My tech crew {we run a 1000 seat theater and do Concerts, Musicals,Plays...rock shows,Jazz and numerious things.} is becoming like a family to me and has helped me beyond belief ..My daughter Greta who loved the theater would be proud of me i think..so thanks again..I still read the forum everyday and kind of feel like i know each and everyone of you...I do have a love for life again...Peace...Love...david m
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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:29:59 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: david m
Subject: I've never spoken to you, David
Message:
So I didn't feel that it was appropriate for me to butt in here but I just want to say that I was quite shaken up by what I read and that my wishes for you are that you have many many more years of increasing happiness before you.
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 11:32:07 (EST)
From: david m
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: I've never spoken to you, David
Message:
Pat..Thanks for the kind words..I feel like i know you reading your posts for the past year..I will keep my head up and try to continue to grow from this horrible experience.. thanks again...Peace...david m
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 13:42:33 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: david m
Subject: You're welcome, David
Message:
The big limitation of this cyber community is not being able to just take someone's hand in friendship or give them a comforting hug. I wish I could do both. Peace to you too.
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:33:18 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Oh Pat, his post is so sad!
Message:
What happened to David completely so timed to what is happening with me and the lost of Robert. Maybe this post to you is off topic but is it? How many children of premies have committed suicide. Is this another whole ugly, awful, evil aspect to the cult? I know I'm over reacting, but am I? Abi said she had a brother who did suicide. Coincidence? Probably, I hope.
I know Robert's family are such sickening, born again Christians, none of that faith helped him now did it? Oh, I am sick with grief and so afraid to confront what cults are really capable of.

Tonette

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 04:25:41 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: his post is so sad!
Message:
Who is Robert? I may have missed something that you said.
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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 22:44:36 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Robert, 15 year old friend of ours,
Message:
He's in one of my posts to this thread. I knew him since he was 3. A neighbor, our kids kinda grew up together though my son, who was closest in age to him, was never a 'buddy' per se, to Robert.
Anyway, this post, from David, was so poignant to me. I cannot tell you, nor express in words, what the suicide of this young man did to me. And when I read David's post, well, like you, I just wanted to hold this father and love him. Because I need that myself.
Some things will never be right nor make sense. A death of a child from suicide makes Maharaji and his idiotic dying cult look like a joke! What a perspective, eh?
But that seems to variations on a theme, suicide, when really looking at what Maharaji and what his message has done to people and innocent bystanders. Sure does seem to be alot of that anyway.
I'm sad and angry in some ways about what happened to Robert. I can not bring him back but I know that our friendship could of prevented what he did, had I been there.

Tonette

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 03:54:01 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Robert, 15 year old friend of ours,
Message:
Okay I went back and read your posts to david. I avoided them at first because I did not really want to read any more about david's loss and thought that was what you were talking about. I am sorry to hear about that.

My first girlfriend's son, whom I helped raise for four years, killed himself on his 16th birthday 20 years ago and we have only just now begun to talk about it to each other. Yes, I am still in touch with her after 36 years. She cracked up for a few years and then became a buddhist nun.

Her son had been a heroine addict and she had not known it because she was living such a high life and neglected him for years. I too feel responsibilty because I walked out on him when he was the only father he had known. It was the sixties and I was very selfish.

I also neglected my own son because his mother left the cult and our lives separated while I pursued Rev Rawat but he survived and has just got his first job as a school teacher.

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 00:50:10 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A warm welcome to all new posters...
Message:
I would like to welcome all new posters to the forum, on behalf of many of the readers and contributors who frequent the forum and epo site.

I've noticed at least 3 new people today, and it's amazing how each story has their own similarities and unique differences as well.
When all the pieces of the puzzle come together, a picture starts to develop which helps everyone in understanding and unravelling their own unique journey into and out of maharaji's sphere of influence.

It's a fascinating story, and all of your posts mean a lot to everyone.
It's very helpful for other questioning premies to read these posts, as well as recent exes.
I'm sure it's helpful to you as well, to read these journeys and post yours as well, so please feel free to come here and post frequently.
Your heart felt stories are valuable.
Thank you, and I hope you feel comfortable here and get the most out of this resource.

(As far as posting under your real name, or anonymously...it seems best just to do whatever feels most comfortable to you right now.)

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 11:58:36 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: Link to new posters
Message:
Thanks for saying that Jim S. It's the new posters, like you and I were not so long ago, that keep the discussion fresh. What with New Year and wedding proposals, threads are moving quickly so I've made the link to Lil' Darlin's thread which also has Doug's first post. Chris's post is in the thread below this one.

Many of us thought that there would be many newcomers here and that seems to be true.

My hearty welcome as well to all the newcomers.

Richard
[ Lil Darlin's post ]

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 11:44:07 (EST)
From: an old poster
Email: None
To: Jim S.
Subject: A warm welcome to all new posters...
Message:
thanks.
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