Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive: Page 5 of 5

Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 01, 2002	To: Jan 08, 2002	Page: 5 of: 5

Chris -:- Happy New Year - I'm unrecruiting... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:08:59 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Hi Chris -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 16:42:35 (EST)

__ Doug -:- Re: Happy New Year - I'm unrecruiting... -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:35:16 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Well, Doug then, a Hearty Welcom to You... -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 17:47:09 (EST)

__ __ Chris -:- To Doug: -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 22:08:37 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Thanks and Welcome -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 03:47:50 (EST)

__ __ Chris -:- Thanks Brian -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 22:14:16 (EST)

__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Clearly stated Chris -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 05:04:53 (EST)

__ Marianne -:- Happy cult free New Year, Chris -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 01:55:37 (EST)

__ __ Chris -:- Thanks/Few comments... -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 22:36:35 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Premies as walking advertisements -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 03:35:49 (EST)

__ __ __ Chris -:- Re: Premies as walking advertisements -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 22:44:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Premies as walking advertisements -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 01:27:39 (EST)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- What's with Maroyln? -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:30:13 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Who knows? -:- What's with Marolyn? -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:05:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ The Maharaji of Malibu's -:- wife is GUILTY, Too -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 05:55:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- She's known he couldn't keep his trousers up -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:47:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- to all three of you, yes, my take too -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:06:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- HEY Tonette... -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 17:42:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Hello to you too! ot -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 23:05:29 (EST)

__ Inside Edition -:- Thanks, Chris -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 17:28:02 (EST)

__ Francesca :~) -:- Welcome! -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:43:08 (EST)

__ __ Chris -:- Hi Francesca -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 17:02:49 (EST)

__ __ __ JohnT -:- R2 -:- Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 13:30:37 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- Worst post Ever! Go find a chat room or something! -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 00:24:40 (EST)

__ __ Chris -:- Hi Tonette -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 17:08:05 (EST)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- Hi back to you. Welcome to the forum. nt -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:42:56 (EST)

__ Richard -:- Welcome Chris -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 22:56:23 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Hello Chris -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 21:50:01 (EST)

__ __ Mercedes -:- Re: Hello Joe -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 20:13:51 (EST)

__ __ __ Nige -:- The above thread post is NOT mine... -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 21:01:48 (EST)

__ __ hgjgjh -:- Repost (corrupted forum indec) -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:28:03 (EST)

__ __ Chris -:- KIT - active recruitment -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 11:27:57 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- KIT - active recruitment - holy cow! -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:49:36 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Chris... -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:48:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Chris -:- Hi Cynthia! -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 22:56:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Hi Chris... -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 17:56:17 (EST)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- ***BEST OF FORUM** whole thread! [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:45:28 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Excellent, Chris, thanks/questions -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:31:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Amazing, Joe -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:34:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Chris -:- I've no doubts left - this a cult! -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 16:51:43 (EST)

__ __ Chris -:- Hi y'all and thanks.. -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 10:20:58 (EST)

__ __ __ Disculta -:- Re: Hi y'all and thanks.. -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:38:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Chris -:- Aye - disculted... -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 23:06:19 (EST)

__ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: Happy New Year - I'm unrecruiting... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 20:07:33 (EST)

__ __ Chris -:- Annex to Redneck... -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 10:26:38 (EST)

__ __ Chris -:- Hi New Age Red Neck! -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 09:38:47 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Welcome, Chris -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:34:39 (EST)

__ __ Jim S. -:- Re: Welcome, Chris -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:57:15 (EST)

Nige -:- Thoughts for the new year... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:42:21 (EST)

__ __ Mercedes -:- Re: Hello Joe -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 20:13:51 (EST)

__ __ __ Nige -:- The above thread post is NOT mine... -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 21:01:48 (EST)

__ __ hgjgjh -:- Repost (corrupted forum indec) -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:28:03 (EST)

__ __ Chris -:- KIT - active recruitment -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 11:27:57 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- KIT - active recruitment - holy cow! -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:49:36 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Chris... -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:48:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Chris -:- Hi Cynthia! -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 22:56:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Hi Chris... -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 17:56:17 (EST)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- ***BEST OF FORUM** whole thread! [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:45:28 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Excellent, Chris, thanks/questions -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:31:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Amazing, Joe -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:34:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Chris -:- I've no doubts left - this a cult! -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 16:51:43 (EST)

__ __ Chris -:- Hi y'all and thanks.. -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 10:20:58 (EST)

__ __ __ Disculta -:- Re: Hi y'all and thanks.. -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:38:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Chris -:- Aye - disculted... -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 23:06:19 (EST)

__ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: Thoughts for the new year... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:44:56 (EST)

__ __ hamzen -:- Wheat eatin vegans eh!! -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:05:22 (EST)

__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: Wheat eatin vegans eh!! -:- Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 11:37:13 (EST)

__ __ Moley -:- Re: Thoughts for the new year... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 20:11:45 (EST)

__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: Thoughts for the new year... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 20:48:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Nige -:- New Age Redneck... -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 21:41:57 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: New Age Redneck... -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:54:35 (EST)

__ Lesley -:- There's no law saying the truth has to be cheerful -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:47:55 (EST)

__ __ Moley -:- Lesley - you write so well -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:53:19 (EST)

__ __ __ Lesley -:- Ta Moley -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 15:26:52 (EST)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Nigel, what did your post say? -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 09:09:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Attemped repost... -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:38:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Chris -:- Re: Nigel, what did your post say? -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:09:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- FA can you help? -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:45:13 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: FA can you help? -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:57:36 (EST)

DANIELLE -:- New website - New forum -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:39:37 (EST)

Cynthia -:- Maharaji.net online today...Weird! -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:12:28 (EST)

__ janet -:- what's the new URL? -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:20:23 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- It's dot orgy oops dot org [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:39:30 (EST)

__ Francesca -:- Apparently only people with DSL or Cable -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 01:26:12 (EST)

__ __ Francesca -:- Loads better the 2nd time -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 01:56:20 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Loads better the 2nd time -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 05:45:04 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- I sent an e-mail, did anyone else? -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 00:12:00 (EST)

__ __ Doug -:- Re: I sent an e-mail, did anyone else? -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 01:19:17 (EST)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- LOL, sex with your wife!!! -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 09:34:12 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Doug -:- Re: LOL, sex with your wife!!! -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 00:43:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- So, how long has it been? -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:53:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Doug -:- Re: So, how long has it been? -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:20:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Left the cult long ago but........ -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 03:06:02 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Funny, sensible and challenging -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 03:05:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Not true Pat -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:16:51 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- It was a dig, Ham -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 14:04:53 (EST)

__ hamzxen -:- Just beautiful & so predictAble -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:04:42 (EST)

__ Amen, sister -:- What a silly site... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:18:51 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Re: What a silly site... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:27:57 (EST)

__ __ __ Richard -:- All hat and no cattle. -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:05:57 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: All hat and no cattle. -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:31:13 (EST)

__ __ __ Amen, sister -:- Design:C -, Content-F(zero) nt -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:54:14 (EST)

PatC -:- I first posted on forum a year ago today -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 14:59:26 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- Happy Anniversary!! -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:43:25 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Well, Thelma got drunk and fell on her face -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:52:18 (EST)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- I remember it was my soon to be -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 05:20:58 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- That's the funniest story I've read today -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 20:48:57 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- I remember those days well -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:04:36 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Re: I remember those days well -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:56:22 (EST)

__ Francesca :~) -:- And I remember the shiteload of e-mails -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:27:12 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Re: And I remember the shiteload of e-mails -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 20:05:34 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Happy Anniversary Pat -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 22:26:43 (EST)

__ __ PatC - Your first post to me -:- ''Don't knock Berkeley'' -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 23:50:35 (EST)

__ hamzen -:- I remember it well you buggert -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:16:34 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- You were the first ex to answer me -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 21:17:23 (EST)

__ __ Nige -:- ditto every word, Ham -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 20:30:42 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- You're making me teary, Nige -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 21:30:16 (EST)

__ Richard -:- Re: I first posted on forum a year ago today -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:58:47 (EST)

__ __ Moley -:- To Thelma and Postie -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:15:38 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- To Postie and Moldy Warp -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 21:35:49 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Moley -:- Re: To Postie and Moldy Warp -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 21:31:59 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- To Postie... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:23:42 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Your first post as yourself -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:12:57 (EST)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Get Smart cards -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:49:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: Get Smart cards -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 20:57:14 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- You've come a long way, Baby!!! [nt] -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:17:31 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Lifeline -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 11:41:47 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- I thank Pauline Premie, Vicki -:- Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:08:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Can't wait! (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 01:42:05 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Why wait? Just come on down! :) [nt] -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 19:44:07 (EST)

Nigel -:- A proposal... (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 11:36:44 (EST)

__ AJW -:- The first 30 years are the worst. -:- Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 18:37:35 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- That is so sweet Nigel -:- Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 17:58:29 (EST)

__ magiclara -:- Re: A proposal... (ot) -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 17:24:45 (EST)

__ __ Moley -:- Re: A proposal... (ot) -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 21:54:33 (EST)

__ __ nige -:- Hi Mags! -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 20:47:39 (EST)

__ Abi -:- congratulations -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 23:01:09 (EST)

__ __ Nige -:- Re: congratulations -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 20:30:41 (EST)

__ Dermot -:- Hey Moley,Nige... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 18:28:55 (EST)

__ __ Moley -:- Hey Dermot -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 18:53:07 (EST)

__ PatD -:- Congratulations Nigel and Moley -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:52:49 (EST)

__ __ Anandaji -:- Re: Congratulations Nigel and Moley -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 01:25:29 (EST)

__ __ Moley -:- Re: Congratulations Nigel and Moley -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:02:11 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- I have to tell you Nige... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:32:55 (EST)

__ __ Moley -:- Re: I have to tell you Nige... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:53:47 (EST)

__ Tim G -:- Re: Congratulations! -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 14:59:08 (EST)

__ __ Moley -:- Tim G- I'm even nicer!!! -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:22:19 (EST)

__ Moley -:- The answer (ot) -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 14:29:06 (EST)

__ __ hamxen -:- You pair of sad fuckers you -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:15:58 (EST)

__ __ __ nige -:- Hey Mr DJ.. -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 20:19:20 (EST)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Sad fuckers indeed.. -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:37:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- A wicker man pagan wedding, excellent -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:09:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Nige -:- Same address and phone no,, -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:24:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Oh goody, I'll be vicar.... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:44:11 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Congratulations Nige and Moley! -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:49:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Vicar + Wiccan = Pat the Viccan? [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 14:12:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Moley -:- Re: Oh goody, I'll be vicar.... -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:50:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- be purple with gold glittery bits. -:- Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:13:58 (EST)

Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:08:59 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Happy New Year - I'm unrecruiting...
Message:

Well said, Lil� Darlin and Doug. I 'hear' you - it�s always nice to read sincere, personal stories such as yours.
To you, and everyone on Forum, I hope the new year treats you well and you�re �enjoying your existence� without the speaker and the group�s stifling, soulless activities.
I, too, am a recent ex who has �fallen out of love with MJ� and finally seen through the cult dynamics I�ve been grappling with for two and a half decades. I was also a previous ashram resident, but left in the early 80�s in Canada. Amidst everyone else�s surrendering their lives to MJ, I wanted my own life back. I wanted to be able to make my own decisions, to be free to pursue my own interests and hobbies, and to form relationships should I fall in love. This I�ve done since my ashram years, and have enjoyed practising K while living a more fulfilling, rounded life of my own - with all its pleasures and pains, gains and losses, bittersweetly unique to me. Myself, whenever I do have a meditation unclogged by thoughts or sleepiness, I like the stillness, purity and �answers� I get from it. Many times I�ve felt the �eternity-in-the-moment�, that�s unaffected by anyone or anything - including MJ & EV!
But for me, I no longer have any tolerance for personality idolization and ultimately, cult dynamics was the reason I walked. The turning point for me was the Knowledge Information Training Session held last year which blatantly crossed the line into making us programmed idiots to sell K. without looking or sounding like we�re selling K. It emphasized teamwork and denounced independent thinking and
decision-making, giving frequent reminders to never forget, of course, who the real boss is that we�re doing service for. If there was a question you didn�t have an immediate answer to, the instruction was to give them a video of MJ talking about the subject. Duh, wow, brilliant.... now if I only had the time to find the right video......
(As you probably already know, the KIT was an offspring of MJ�s presentation in Atlanta a year ago on the importance of teamwork and how to talk about and introduce K effectively to newcomers. The KITs were hosted by each city�s Knowledge Introduction Steering Committee, whose task was to draw up and implement a �Knowledge Introduction Plan�. These plans clearly show that this is active recruitment, which discredits EV�s FAQ statement that EV is not a cult involved in active recruiting of members, as each committee picked a yearly goal number of (say 300) people to introduce to Knowledge.)
I decided it was high time I educated myself on cult dynamics and group mind control - there are some good books out there on cult exiting, and I�m still learning all I can. It�s interesting how people inside a cult will deny to the teeth that they�re in a cult. I know I was like that. When I first received K, I remember my dad saying to my brothers that he figured I would outgrow it in about 10 years. Rest his soul, if he (and I) only knew it would actually take me 27 years!
Again, warm wishes to you, Lil Darlin, and everyone for a happy new year. Also, just want to say I�m thankful also to be able to read all the discussions and sharing here, diverse as they may be - hey, just like real life...
Sincerely,
Chris,
Cheers from Canada
(Another recent ex)
PS: Go easy on me, please - this is my first post ever :)

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 16:42:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Hi Chris
Message:

Hey Chris,
Great post, congratulations and do we know each other? Where are you?
If you like, email me:
jimheller@shaw.ca

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:35:16 (EST)
From: Doug
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Happy New Year - I'm unrecruiting...
Message:

Welcome, Chris. I beat you here by one day. We'll be the class of
'02.
Doug

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 17:47:09 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Doug
Subject: Well, Doug then, a Hearty Welcom to You...
Message:

Hi Doug,
I'm Cynthia J. Gracie from Vermont, USA. I'm so happy to see you and Chris here with energy and humor and resolve.
This is a very fun, intense, serious, and educational forum, and I welcome you from the bottom of my heart.
I'm originally from Connecticut. I got k in New Haven, but lived in Hartford during my first years as a premie. I also went to Miami for the infamous Deca project, was transferred to Gainesville ashram, then I left, in Jan. 1981. I spent 16 years away from the cult, but after a brief attempt at going back in 1997 (I think, my adled brain has a hard time with dates), I found EPO, and became an ex-premie. You will find so much love and support and confrontation on this forum. GET ready! You both are brave, a lot of premies who are now exes are afraid to post here.
I'm glad you took the plunge...
I hope to get to know you both--your energy is, well, energizing!
Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 22:08:37 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Doug
Subject: To Doug:
Message:

All right!
Liked your picture - reminds me of the last programs I've attended - felt more and more as if black walls are closing in and crumbling down.... there's really not much left, eh?
Looking forward to sharing with you here, Doug. Happy sailing...
Chris

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 03:47:50 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Thanks and Welcome
Message:

I exited about a year ago myself and I just want to thank you for your forthright and informative accounting of your exit story this past year.
I missed the KIT stuff, and from how you have described it I am sure that would have been the last drip for me had I not found EPO and the forum first.
It all comes down to personality worship, condoned by the boss, pretending like he is not, mixed messages and myth's an entire dysfunctional relationship based on secrets and lies pawned off as the highest experience one can have in life.
What a crock of crap, 29 years I spent stirring this caldren of cult fantasy consciousness thinking that I was really on to a special truth. When I finally poured it out and looked at it, it was everything that I thought I had came into the cult to avoid. Concepts, illusions, beliefs, secrets, rituals, gmj worship, ego tripping church lady ladder climbers just another religion. No truth, the love long since gone.
I don't think you will find many going hard on you here Chris, you seem to be way ahead of the exit curve already.
I showed up here my first time as a practicing premie posting apologist cult drivel, I went from 0 to 60 over hard road on the forum for a short while before I woke up to what was really going on with GMJ and the cult.
Even so, if someone here doesn't always agree with you it is not the worst thing that can happen to you. I still say thanks to those who did not let me off easy and made me face up to my own inauthentic barriers and to the reality of being in a cult and doing something about it.
I look forward to hearing more from you Chris, thanks for posting and Happy New Year

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 22:14:16 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Thanks Brian
Message:

Nice to hear from you - and thanks for sharing that.
My case is similar to yours in that I�m seeing things as many different shades of grey, rather than black and white. It looks like I may never reach my own final verdict as to is he or isn�t he. Even if he IS (unlikely, but possible), then he�s one who�s never grown up into normal adulthood. But I could go to my grave digging through all the facts for that one last solid hard evidence. And all the �by his fruits you will know him� and the �let your own heart be the judge� lines (which of course, say nothing either way) - for me they�re just NOT GOOD ENOUGH any more.
And you know what, I don�t really even care any more if he is or isn�t. I do have enough memory cells left to remember how to meditate on my own whenever I feel the urge to drink. I don�t need more nice reminders - repetitive indoctrination - thank you very much. That�s the only thing it was ever for anyway - me, myself, my own benefit. That�s my own �shred of truth amidst gallons of salt� that I�m walking away with.
As for doing service for him - hey, he�s a 44 yr. old man - time for him to learn how to do his own shopping and take care of his own matters. I have my own life to pursue.
My own emotional response to finally seeing through the cult dynamics is - �holy mackerel, amazing� - like coming to the end of a story with an incredible twist - something that�s the last thing you would ever anticipate or guess yourself, yet very obvious.
So, I�ve been devouring all the information I can on cult exit processing. Right now, I�m in the middle of compiling a chronological calendar of all the events significant to me, places I�ve lived, and all the �uncomfortable grating� moments I�ve been through during my involvement.
So thanks again for your message, Brian
Cheers to you,
Chris

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 05:04:53 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Clearly stated Chris
Message:

Through the shadowy shades of grey the one conclusion about m that I have come to is this. We are all capable of the same realizations, we hold the same capacity for experience as GMJ or any other person or teacher does for knowing personal fullfillment.
M particularly has nothing over us as to what he can reveal or impart within ourselves that we do not already have access to by our own means if we choose.
GMJ does not hold the keys to the kingdom, in fact he impedes the way of real spiritual progress which ultimately becomes an individual and personal experience and cannot include a diety attachment.
I like your chronological review and taking inventory of your past significant cult experiences. Be prepared for many zingers and bells to go off, you will see in hindsight many drips that you avoided the first time around.
After I exited I took some time, reviewed my priority's, and my past cult involvement. Then I concentrated on my own experience validated myself, and laid claim to my own soul and my own understandings.
I am not saying that my understanding or experience should be yours, but reclaiming my self will was a big step in my personal recovery and I am much the more happy and content with myself than I ever was emotionally enslaved to m and the cult.
I guess we are finally growing up, and out of the Tooth Fairy, Peter Pan, Santa Claus and Perfect Master Fantasys. At 54 and 57 we still may have some time to reconcile ourselves without going to our graves waiting for the big boss to deliver us (according to him) our undeserved salvation.
The incredible twist of fate is that we are having this conversation in the first place after being imbedded in the cult for so long. We are finally getting clearer about ourselves and are freer now more than ever before to pursue whatever other options we please.
Pretty incredible don't you think Chris? after all it is a huge world full of immense possibilies.
Thanks for your response Chris,
Cheers
Brian

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 01:55:37 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Chris
Subject: Happy cult free New Year, Chris
Message:

Greetings Chris, and welcome. Thank you for your posts, especially the information about the training seminars. It is always fascinating to learn what new charade the cult is trying to employ in order to ensnare the unsuspecting in its clutches.
Jumping into the forum is an emotionally risky business, but so is most of life. Being a committed, insulting and vicious cult apologist is what gets folks angry around here, and what draws nasty retorts. Working out your exit from the cult, and the ramifications in your life, in your posts will draw lots of compassion and understanding. It is a different and unique process for each of us. We're here to help, not to hurt.
I hope that you and the other new folks who have just arrived -- Doug, Boudaciea, and others -- will write and post your Journeys. We can learn a lot from you.
Congratulations on your new found freedom.
Much love, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 22:36:35 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks/Few comments...
Message:

Hi and thank you,
'It is always fascinating to learn what new charade the cult is trying to employ in order to ensnare the unsuspecting in its clutches.'
- Yes Marianne - it�s amazing how they�re still trying to catch flies in mid-air with, I think, maybe only one arm left.
Namely, inviting the speaker to come speak in the north country, but the secondhand-clothed church ladies have to buy him some fur-lined polar gear first. (He�s 44 years old - high time for him to learn how to do his own shopping. And of course he won�t come - he hates the cold.)
And 2nd-namely, sending letters to all the old premies who ever lived in and moved on from the community advising them of the �resources currently available for them to enjoy the speaker�s message' (re-recruiting from within)
'It is a different and unique process for each of us. We're here to help, not to hurt.'
- Thanks. I certainly appreciate any tips, advice, etc. on the cult exiting process. Are there any exercises I should be engaging? Any other books on the subject you could recommend? (I�ve just finished Steven Hassan�s book, but it only touches on cult exiting process itself.) What would be my next step in the exiting process?
I do have some �drips� and occasional uncomfortable, grating moments (like a vortex in a warp bubble) to share/get off my chest. At least I can LOL to myself about some of them, and feel sad by the rest. But these I�d rather share with someone I can trust off-line (via email maybe), as I�m writing under an alias now. Perhaps I could email you my email address?
So definitely count me in as one more exiter, thanks to EPO's reports of all the behind the scenes activities. It would take someone who has been close to MJ, seen the act behind the stage, left and passed on what they saw - as it certainly isn't everyday communications within the cult.
There is one thing I want to note, if I may, while it�s still fresh on my mind (yikes, here come the pounces) :)
I�ll try to explain as best I can the first initial reaction I had to reading the heading �Ex-Lord of the Universe� on the opening page of EPO. I, also, had the initial flashing thought of 'he�s not known as that anymore, they�re out of touch and standing on decade-old observations' which is discreditive and dissuading and can shed an irrelevant light on anything that follows. Luckily for myself, the major drip I had just encountered (the impulse behind my first venturing to open up the page) was sufficiently strong enough to sit me through that initial flash and keep reading on. And my drip WAS very strong.
It�s dealing with the mechanics of a first-time questioning session for an inside-culter - cult dynamics experts will tell you it�s a very sensitive time.
For inside-culters, the term �lord of the universe� is a no-no, politically incorrect, even though the current actions remain as if the �understanding� of who he is is unchanged. Of course, outsiders see past this - it�s SO cultish and so in dire need of re-examining. I think outsiders don�t understand that insiders don�t quite see past this mindset yet.
The initial phase of a deprogramming process is a crucial moment. To an insider, reading EPO is like taking a bite of something they�re programmed to believe is poison - it�s a daring move, and hence it�s SO easy to be dissuaded at that point. One step too far/fast or one shove of the spoon too far down the mouth (so to speak) can easily send them scurrying back inside the cult. So an outsider waving the old scoffing flag of �ex-lord of the universe� can be too confronting, too fast down the throat for that crucial initial contact.
My thinking is probably all flawed and synapse-crossed, but some understanding is needed of cult deprogramming stages, I think......
'Congratulations on your new found freedom.
Much love, Marianne'
Thanks. It took a bit for me to finally post here, but I�m now glad I have.
�Chris�

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 03:35:49 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Premies as walking advertisements
Message:

Chris, so glad you are here and posting. It's insightful stuff you've brought us.
I received knowledge in '74 and stayed with it until a few months back when I landed here. One thing I distinctly recall is Maharaji saying that we were his advertisements, and that's why he didn't take out bona fide ads or billboards, etc etc etc.
It wasn't until recently that I figured out for myself why he chose this route of bringing in new customers. There's no liability. He can't be sued for false advertising. He's not accountable to any legal entity as long as he keeps his house of tax free status in order.
But he needs it to run like a real advertising operation, therefore we became stepford premies, programmed with Elan Vital answers that came straight from the horse's mouth. I remember Marilyn saying it was so beautiful that Maharaji was letting us do propogation, that we couldn't even understand what a gift it was. I could never get my brain around that one. Now I know why. We were being used then as the premies are being used now. It has nothing to do with compassion in sharing knowledge with the world. And if we were all so inept, then how come the numbers back then beat the numbers now in people receiving knowledge? And how did he get all the millions of dollars then that he can't seem to get now?
If I was Michael Nouri, I would pray the Star or Enquirer never came to see the Kit video. That would be the end of what little career the talented guy has.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 22:44:14 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Premies as walking advertisements
Message:

Thanks for your comments, Vicki - happy new year to you.
'It wasn't until recently that I figured out for myself why he chose this route of bringing in new customers. There's no liability. He can't be sued for false advertising. He's not accountable to any legal entity as long as he keeps his house of tax free status in order.'
- Thanks Vicki. Some major aha�s just flashed in my brain with that. There�s something I�d like to share on that, but if I did here it might blow my alias. Can I email you?
Cheers,
Chris

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 01:27:39 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Premies as walking advertisements
Message:

Sure, please, do you have my e-mail? It's MercyGirl_@hotmail.com

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:30:13 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: What's with Maroyln?
Message:

'It's so beautiful M is letting us do propagation, we don't even know what a gift it is.'
Yep, that sounds like something she would say allright. Of all the people on the planet, she has by now had a full exposure to decit and first hand observation of some really deplorable behavior that I wonder how is she able to continue to play the game and remain sane. Is she no longer lucid or do you think she's part of the con?
Just wondering.
Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:05:03 (EST)
From: Who knows?
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: What's with Marolyn?
Message:

It's probably a whole bunch of motivations.
1. Programming, and belief, to a certain extent;
2. Maharaji apparently threatened to keep her away from her kids if she ever left him
3. She has a good thing going lifestyle-wise and money-wise
4. There are the kids
5. She sees herself fulfilling a role
6. She knows M is very flawed, but she still thinks that knowledge is worthwhile.....(this is a rationale of a lot of premies -- they know Maharaji is a jerk in a lot of ways, but feel that should be overlooked in relation to the supposed 'good' he does).

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 05:55:35 (EST)
From: The Maharaji of Malibu's
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: wife is GUILTY, Too
Message:

Somewhere on EPO is a letter from her to a friend. In the letter, she tells the friend to practice K and ignore the fact she was abused by an instructor. You know, 'surrender to M'. Twice in the letter she points out that the letter is to be kept secret. She also uses her recent physical problem as an excuse as in, 'don't bug me with your small problem'. This is very deceitful and brings her right into the conspiracy.
The only remaining question is WHEN she knew chubby hubby was a con.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:47:24 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu's
Subject: She's known he couldn't keep his trousers up
Message:

for 20 years, and was shagging her chauffeur 20 years ago. Hardly the act of someone married to the Keeper of the Highest Secret.

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:06:06 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: to all three of you, yes, my take too
Message:

Another victim but I don't credit her with being anything close to moral or ethical for that matter.
Just a hedonistic bitch, in love with herself and her unearned fame, addicted to her lifestyle and to hell with the Premies and their children. 'Oh one of my husband's instructors raped a child,' well, fiddle dee dee, not my problem. I'm not going to do anything.
'Oh a bunch of my husband's devotees asking for some sort of restitution after their involvement with knowledge,' well fiddle dee dee, they can go to hell. They're not getting any of my clothing allowance! Not any of my wealth.
And I'm so busy getting my nails and hair done, I don't possibly have the time to attend to any of these problems!
I've raised four worthless children who have never given anything to anyone, besides they are such a worry. Completely dependant on my husbands agenda, for their lively hood and existence. Somehow these children are completly emeshed in the Knowledge cult. Why should I do anything that would dismantle that, however wrong it is.
Yes, I helped build it, and I spent my most of my life propagating it, why should I take a closer look at what really is. There's nothing wrong is there?
Marolyn, what a piece of work you have become.
But no, I don't feel sorry for you Marolyn because you do have the power to right many, many, wrongs. You can still write a check can't you? How about writing one to Abby for let's say, 1,500,000.00 dollars for starters. Sell some of your jewelry if you have to.
Tonette

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 17:42:29 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: HEY Tonette...
Message:

How are you? Glad to see you back and feisty as ever.
I have put much thought into Marolyn, a/k/a, Durga Ji, Mom, Wife of the Lord.
She was an adult when she married maharaji. I cannot believe that she is just a total cult victim. No. She benefits quite a lot from the guru business. I can only speculate about any pre or post nuptual agreements they may or may not have, but I think she's tied to the whole thing through:
1. Cult confusion;
2. Addiction to greed;
3. The mess her children are, and the possible loss of contact with all or any or her kids;
4. She does exhibit the ''goddess'' attitude and has become used to a life of oppulence, as well as being in the #2 position regardless of the mistress Monica;
5. She may be suffering from battered woman syndrome (which includes the psychological mindset of a battered woman, whether or not he's ever beaten her. It is most likely a major mind-fuck). However, she has every resource at her disposal to leave. She must have access to funds to escape her situation, it's a matter of her choice; and
6. Maybe she is simply a very shallow person who likes to live high on the hog at the expense of a cult business.
As you said above, Marolyn Rawat is quite a piece of work.
Great to have you back,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 23:05:29 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hello to you too! ot
Message:

I'm back for now with a little bit of trepidation, that is, with posting on the forum.
I am so impatient and take the forum as such as important factor in helping to bring Maharaji down and to justice, that I know my vunerability here is great. I need an extra skin layer or something.
Cynthia, I want to see Maharaji pay for all of the damage he has done. I want it done yesterday!
So, I read here and sometimes will post, but what I am really doing is following the evolution of his cult finally taking it's last gasping breaths and witnessing Maharaji making restitution to everyone he hurt. Me, do I want anything? No, not really. Just for it to be over. And I do want M to pay it all back.
Take care and it's good to know that I have a forum friend, as I am to you.
Love, Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 17:28:02 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Thanks, Chris
Message:

Dear Chris,
It takes a lot of courage to post here for the first time, but it sure feels great to regain your freedom from the cult. Cult dynamics did it for me too, with massive help from EPO and all the brave folks who helped put the puzzle together. Going from 'Knowlege of God' to 'Knowledge of Fraud' is quite tramatic, but certainly survivable.
Especially when you realize that you are not alone!
Thanks very much for sharing the KIT information. It made me feel like taking a shower!
Look forward to your future posts.
Inside Edition

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:43:08 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Welcome!
Message:

Why wouldn't I go easy! You certainly didn't wave any red capes. A warm welcome to you and thanks for your input. The input of people leaving the cult recently is valuable; you will see there are many of you. Although the naysayers always beat the old mantra that 'the information on the Forum is 20 years old,' you and many others make that argument absurd on its face.
If I had the time, I'd collect a bunch of posts like yours just to shut them up. But why waste energy responding to a useless argument that has no basis in fact. The naysayers would like me to waste my energy on straw men.
After all, we had a straw guru, with feet of clay!
Bests,
Francesca

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 17:02:49 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Hi Francesca
Message:

To the naysayers - of course, they don't like this - they're terrified of it - the disease of inside cult members.
About a week ago there was a post from the troll, R2, with his 10 reasons of why we're doing this. I almost jumped in at that point with the response 'Sorry, but you're wrong on all counts in my case. Cult dynamics was the reason I walked. Let me give you an example - and then tell him all about the KIT.' I thought it would kill a few birds with one stone :)
Looking forward to sharing more with you, Francesca.....
Chris

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Date: Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 13:30:37 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: R2
Message:

Hi Chris,
Congratulations. I was hoping you were a premie Chris I know, but I doubt we've ever met.
I've had one or two long exchanges with R2. He is certainly deeply enmeshed in the cult, to the point where it has damaged his ability to reason about the world and even to understand what real means.
I am not so sure he is an outright troll tho. He was not rude and abusive (well, no more than I was!). Instead, he seemed genuinely unable to think straight as far as the cult is concerned.
Some people do get a real buzz from the techniques, even as mistaught by Rawat. I think R2 may well be like that, and has swallowed far too much of the bullshit as a result.
If cultists keep coming here as themselves they always seem to be able to free themselves in the end. Why else would a premie post here? I hope Richard the Second (R2) keeps coming here.
JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 00:24:40 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Worst post Ever! Go find a chat room or something!
Message:

This is a joke obviously. I still get extremely nervous posting.
Welcome.
Yes, the forum at times can be interesting and fun. I exited in the eighties which kinda coincided with the birth of my first child.
Good luck and Happy New Year to you too!
Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 17:08:05 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Hi Tonette
Message:

Hi Tonette, I liked your joke :) - especially your suggestion to go find a CHAT room somewhere. Thanks. That would be cute - That would truly be Knowledge Introduction ! :)

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:42:56 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Hi back to you. Welcome to the forum. nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 22:56:23 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Welcome Chris
Message:

Thank you for your heartfelt post. Your comments, along with those of Lil Darlin and Doug below, make the forum the rich and varied place it is. I'm glad you felt comfortable sharing your story. I agree that unattributed meditations you call the eternity-in-the-momentare wonderful.
All the best,
Richard

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 21:50:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Hello Chris
Message:

It sounds like you are doing well. It's always great to hear about people who look closely at what is going on and can get out of the cult mindset. I know I would have never thought I was ever in a cult either, but that's exactly what it is.
I'm sure people in those trainings have to do lots of logical and ethical backflips to be able to deal with the dissonance. I'm also quite certain that none of that 'teamwork' crap will ever work in 'spreading knowledge,' and nor will learning how to deceitfully market it. People are just too smart for that, or at least most people are.
I would love to hear more about those trainings. Someone gave me a video of the Atlanta presentation you mention, but I haven't had the stomach to watch it yet. I have to get ready for that, and not have anything close by that I might just throw at the TV screen. :)
All the best, there are lots of people to give you support here, although you seem to be doing very well all by yourself. Do you know any other premies who are questioning? All the best,
Joe

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 20:13:51 (EST)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Hello Joe
Message:

Hi Joe,
Watching the video of the Atlanta training started the dripping for me, you'll probably feel like hurling something at the screen. He sounds disrespecful and so conceited it was disgusting for me at the time.
Mercedes

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 21:01:48 (EST)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: The above thread post is NOT mine...
Message:

Something has screwed up re. the forum index. I have reposted approximately what I wrote and linked to lower down this thread.
(Sorry, Mercedes - I didn't mean to hijack your train of thought. But every time I try and point out the above disappearing posts/forum index problem, it seems to appear in the above thread instead of this one. So I am doing it here in a reply post...and we'll see what happens...?)

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:28:03 (EST)
From: hgjgjh
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Repost (corrupted forum indec)
Message:

jgjshg

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 11:27:57 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: KIT - active recruitment
Message:

Thanks Joe. I don't seem to be viewing my exiting as a tragic thing, really - just glad I'm finally alerted and wisened up. I'm thankful to people like Dettmers, Macgregor and Mishler for their EPO posts alerting us outfield players of the behind-the-scenes facts, given that news such as that is not exactly splashed across the EV Newsletter's front page... It's SO-O cultish.
Yes, the KIT was the last straw for me. My personal opinion is it should be illegal. (At the very least, it was a total waste of one of my weekends.) The material used in the session was the roughly 90-min. DVD/video from MJ's Atlanta session, and follow-up group exercises that emphasized teamwork and belittled individual thinking/decision-making and independent action, with frequent reminders to never forget, of course, who the no. 1 boss is. There was a bit of faulty/guilty behavior demonstrating in that we were each asked to recount past situations where we were unhelpful to newcomers and answered their questions poorly or �improperly'. Also there was a series of about 6, 5-min. filmed shorts (produced by Dunrite in California with hired actors) of different takes of a morning coffee break conversation with a PWK talking to work friends about the event with MJ she attended over the weekend. Following each, we'd discuss what were the most effective and ineffective lines used. Then there was the simulator interview session (I'll describe that later)*
It was basically a how-to-sell-Knowledge- without-looking-or-sounding-like-you're-selling-Knowledge' workshop. Of course, we couldn't think we were selling Knowledge; we were 'introducing the POSSIBILITY of Knowledge'. I signed up for this so as not to let the group down as they were one shy of the required number. Throughout the session, my thoughts were �this will be the last training session I attend - it all seems so unnecessary, we really don't need this anymore' and the emphasis on no-thinking-through-for-yourself was a turn-off for me, basically.
*The simulation Q&A period:
A few of us volunteered, one at a time, to go into a side room with a camera-video feed to the main hall where the rest would be critically observing our response to some unknown pretaped questions (some of them quite challenging) from either (1) a newcomer first-time introduced; (2) an aspirant trying to get some things cleared up before asking for K; or (3) person just received Knowedge asking why he's not experiencing anything, and other �mind' stuff. The questions were timed - you could get cut off if you pondered or went on too long. There were 4 pretaped endings (depending on your answers) varying from 'Thank you, I enjoyed talking with you; you've helped me' to 'What is this shit - you're crazy; I'm out of here'.
Being curious to see how I'd do and what crappy ideas I might be holding onto myself, I volunteered. I did okay except for the last question - an easy one I've heard many times: 'Can I still practise this meditation and follow my own religion as well?' As my mind seemed to go blank with no answer and couldn't immediately recall any of MJ's quotes like 'Yes, if you like ice cream on your pasta' or 'Check others out first and if still not satisfied, keep me in reserve' (which don't really say anything either way), I caved in with an elaborate �yes'. I was feeling totally amazed at how easily I just let loose some misinformation and/or falsehood (like an embarrassing fart), when they ended the run with the first 'Thank you....' ending! Everyone was clapping and supportive, but I felt like a liar.
The ensuing instruction on that was 'If there's a question you don't know the answer to, and we won't always have the answers to everything, just tell them to watch a video of MJ talking about it'. This I already well knew, but for me it was both not good enough AND gone from my mind at that under-pressure moment. When the instructor went on with this simplistic pointer, I was waving my arm high out of its socket with the question flooding through me: 'But why shouldn't we know the answers ourselves by now, and if not, to prepare for such interviews, we'd have to make a list of every possible question we can think of and search the library for the appropriate video before handing it to them'. It all smacked too much of being programmed with a run-home-to-mama button -- neither intelligent or honest, really. I wasn't given a chance to ask the question but was told I could email any feedback I have to the group. I did so with that very question, without a single response since.
I'm just finishing Steven Hassan's book on combatting cult mind control, and maybe later I could share some understandings on this with someone..... But I'll end this here, for now.
Cheers to you,
Chris

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:49:36 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: KIT - active recruitment - holy cow!
Message:

That was a great essay, Chris. Just the mere mention of KIT was enough to send me scurrying out of the cult. The last time I ever watched a Rev Rawat video was the Atlanta tape. After ten or 15 minutes I had to turn it off. It was obviously a mindfuck. It seemed the whole point of the training could be summed up in one sentence: ''If you want to propagate, shut up and give people videos of Rawat.''
Obviously he does not want anyone to think or speak for themselves about K because that would put him out of business. K is secret and he is the only one who knows anything about it is simply his way of keeping control of the family business. If premies were to start speaking from their own experience he would lose his hold on ownership of K. It's a money-making scam.
Great to have you here, Chris. Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:48:41 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Hi Chris...
Message:

Welcome to F7, Chris,
Thanks for posting. You have so much energy, I hope you'll stick around--I like your enthusiasm.
Since I was in the cult and have exited I have developed quite an aversion to the concept of TEAM and team trainings. I like the saying ''There's no 'I' in the word 'team'.'' And so it appears the purpose of these KITs is to diminish a pwk's self-image and self-confidence by making you wrong all the time. Or, at least, not knowing what is correct or incorrect. This is a typical cult tactic to keep people from thinking and having a sense of self and the ability to discern what is real and not real.
It occurred to me that these training sessions appear to be completely for profit and have little to do with training anyone about anything, other than to reinforce who is the #1 boss, and add a bit more confusion to the minds of premies who attend.
It's ludicrous for m to keep reinventing, revising, changing things over and over when nothing ever works. He's done this for years and propagation has diminished so much one would think he'd give it up already. He wants to keep premies in a state of submission and confusion. The double message is 1. With knowledge you will have all the answers, but...2. You must tie yourself to the master because only he actually knows all the answers and you might be wrong. BUT, here are a few crumbs of information to help you sell the product, m/k, but don't ever say the wrong thing or else. Instilled fear and implied consequences such as guilt, shame, feelings of inadequacy are Maharaji's game. He's such a fool.
Thanks again for joining this board...
I look forward to more of your posts, Chris.
Best,
Cynthia Gracie, Vermont

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 22:56:40 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hi Cynthia!
Message:

Hi Cynthia, sorry it took me a while to get back - I almost missed you in the entangling threads...
'It occurred to me that these training sessions appear to be completely for profit'
Even though its main purpose was recruitment training, yes I would say they got their profit as well. It was $150 pp and at least 20 participants was the minimum requirement for each session. The only material brought in were the DVD, the Dunrite video and the simulator interview tape. All the rest (hall, food, cam/vid/screen, flipcharts, instructors� billeting/travel, etc.) were provided by the hosting community.
'and propagation has diminished so much one would think he'd give it up already. '
- Cynthia, I feel the deprogramming gears here. It�s interesting.....
Have to say, I can�t see him ever giving it up. At least for as long as he remains dedicated to spreading K like he�s always been (and hence it�s the cult�s dedication as well). I think maybe this could be a result of HIS programming. He�s been raised since childhood to do this, like continuing in his dad�s footsteps, and I doubt HE�s ever questioned, re-examined or analyzed that, and so now it�s continued on into the umpteenth generation?
However, I can say the quality of propagation has deteriorated right into the gutters. They�re actually recruiting from within now by sending letters to old premies advising them of the �resources currently available to enjoy the speaker�s message� (as if they�ve forgotten where how to ask..- if they want, they will ask..)
But you know, the thing is, the mindset on that from within is they think they�re helping the old premies - doing them a favor, even on the chance only that they might appreciate being told about it....
Talk about it�s all in the color of our glasses the way we look at something, or the program belief itself, together with lack of insight and facts.....?
I�m ending this one here, for now. (I�ve just written and deleted here another half page of drivel on this one - thoughts going back and forth in my head arriving nowhere yet......... :)
'He wants to keep premies in a state of submission and confusion. The double message is 1. With knowledge you will have all the answers, but...2. You must tie yourself to the master because only he
actually knows all the answers and you might be wrong. BUT, here are a few crumbs of information to help you sell the product, m/k, but don't ever say the wrong thing or else. '
- Yes, so much for the premise of �standing on your own experience�!
'Thanks again for joining this board... I look forward to more of your posts, Chris.'
- Great, thank you, me too
Cheers,
Chris

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 17:56:17 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Hi Chris...
Message:

Thanks for your response.
I liked your answers...see my post to Doug above...it's about you too.
I wish more ex-premies would start posting. It constantly amazes me what a precious gift it is to rid oneself of the cult and Maharaji.
Welcome, keep posting...
Cynthia
P.S. I am going to start using some of the phrases and words that maharaji has bastardized for us while in the cult. Notice my ''precious gift'' in the last paragraph. I am sick of avoiding words because of the putrid association. We can reclaim our lives...
c

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:45:28 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM** whole thread! [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:31:48 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Excellent, Chris, thanks/questions
Message:

Wow, that was amazing. This should probably go somewhere on the website so people can see what's actually going on these days. I'm not so surprised about the deceit, as I think that's been basically the propagation model for a long time (tell people it's just an 'experience' and nothing about the personality/worship cult it is until they are more hooked and then pull them in; don't tell them about darshan, and the rest that would send 'new people' running for the hills.) At least in the old days we were basically honest. Somebody could see the film 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji' and see things like darshan and it was openly admitted that M was really the incarnation of God, or close to it. Now those things are still done and believed, but it's hidden from 'new people' and that really is deceitful. It reminds me of the Moonies who invite you to dinner, but don't even tell you they are followers of Moon until later.
I'm more surprised that anyone with a brain would think this kind of thing/training/rote-learning would actually help in recruiting new members for the cult. Really, nothing has worked so far, and yet so much in time and resources is spent on some 'new' strategy that is finally going to do it. It's just amazing that premies continue, like sheep or cattle, to go along with it without asking the difficult questions and raising some serious doubts. I guess the programming against doubts is still very strong in that cult.
Plus, the whole idea of 'knowledge' is supposed to be about a natural, inside 'experience.' The very idea that you have to worry about saying the wrong thing is just so weird. I guess this is all about Maharaji's megalomania. Only HE can explain the experience, and premies can only do it if they are properly trained. Under no circumstances can they be trusted to explain or relate their own experiences/beliefs. How demeaning. It just seems like Maharaji has always been about trying to destroy any self-reliance or independent thought, and even any growth that one of his 'students' might have. It seems to continue to be a cult based largely on fear. It just gives me the creeps because I can still remember that awful feeling I had as a premie of constantly discounting my own values and judgments.
Also there was a series of about 6, 5-min. filmed shorts (produced by Dunrite in California with hired actors) of different takes of a morning coffee break conversation with a PWK talking to work friends about the event with MJ she attended over the weekend.
Really? Dunrite went out and hired actors to play premies, instead of using actual PWKs? I bet that video was hysterical. I can't believe this.
The questions were timed - you could get cut off if you pondered or went on too long. There were 4 pretaped endings (depending on your answers) varying from 'Thank you, I enjoyed talking with you; you've helped me' to 'What is this shit - you're crazy; I'm out of here'.
So, I take it somebody was pushing some button for the 'appropriate' response to be played, having decided what as a "right" answer and what was a "wrong" one. Who did that? Was it the instructor? I assume this person also went through some kind of 'training.' Do you know anything about that? Who was the instructor?
The ensuing instruction on that was 'If there's a question you don't know the answer to, and we won't always have the answers to everything, just tell them to watch a video of MJ talking about it'.
Isn't this really a formula for a premie never really knowing if the answer they are giving is right, and always fearful of giving the wrong one? I mean, it isn't like premies wouldn't have an opinion on the correct response, it's just that they doubt whether it would be 'right,' or 'right' as of this month, as opposed to the 'right' answer of five years ago. What a weird situation.
Indeed, Maharaji has said so many contradictory things over the years that even the 'right' answer could be wrong. It's so arbitrary, and it seems that the only 'right' answer is: 'Maharaji is God, he knows all and everything else is secondary,' and 'watch-videos-until-you-are-numbed-into-having-all-questions-repressed.'
I wonder if you will every get an answer to your question. You would think that after practicing knowledge for 27 years, you might know at least a thing or two. Just trying to be objective, if I was talking to a premie, and he or she said they had been following Maharaji for 27 years, and still didn't know the answers to some pretty basic questions, I think I would assume something pretty weird was going on, don't you? But then, I think Maharaji is so far out of touch with ordinary people that he really has no idea how bizarre that would sound to someone not aching to kiss his feet.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:34:29 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Amazing, Joe
Message:

YOu said 'Plus, the whole idea of 'knowledge' is supposed to be about a natural, inside 'experience.' The very idea that you have to worry about saying the wrong thing is just so weird. I guess this is all about Maharaji's megalomania. Only HE can explain the experience, and premies can only do it if they are properly trained. Under no circumstances can they be trusted to explain or relate their own experiences/beliefs. How demeaning'
Indeed, how demeaning. And it just occurred to me that most premies have probably meditated MORE than MJ. Maybe he's afraid of that, too.

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 16:51:43 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I've no doubts left - this a cult!
Message:

Joe, good questions - here are my answers:
I'm not so surprised about the deceit, as I think that's been basically the propagation model for a long time (tell people it's just an 'experience' and nothing about the personality/worship cult it is until they are more hooked and then pull them in;
Yes, it's a classic example of cult recruitment strategies
I guess the programming against doubts is still very strong in that cult ..
No shit, man. Strong as ever. Another classic example of a cult dynamic - instilling fear to question anything different from the group's belief, thereby locking the lured inside.
Only HE can explain the experience, and premies can only do it if they are properly trained. Under no circumstances can they be trusted to explain or relate their own experiences/beliefs.
So much for the concept �live from your own experience and your own understanding' which was the very tie that kept me bound. Even The Speaker himself would say over and over again (repetitive doctrination - cult programming technique) that concepts (premises), no matter how seemingly good, are incredibly dangerous.
Dunrite went out and hired actors to play premies, instead of using actual PWKs? I bet that video was hysterical.
The whole kit and caboodle was not only a great joke but an insult to intelligence.
So, I take it somebody was pushing some button for the 'appropriate' response to be played, having decided what as a 'right' answer and what was a 'wrong' one. Who did that? Was it
the instructor? I assume this person also went through some kind of 'training.' Do you know
anything about that? Who was the instructor?
The main facilitator was a visiting instructor from Washington (don't remember the name, right now) who was obviously �trained'. The KIT was hosted by each city's Knowledge Introductory Steering Committee whose task was to draw up and implement a �Knowledge Introduction Plan'. These plans clearly show that this is active recruitment, which discredits EV's FAQ statement that EV is not a cult involved in active recruiting of members, as each committee picked a yearly goal number of (say 300) people to introduce to Knowledge.
Isn't this really a formula for a premie never really knowing if the answer they are giving is
right, and always fearful of giving the wrong one? I mean, it isn't like premies wouldn't have an
opinion on the correct response, it's just that they doubt whether it would be 'right,' or 'right' as
of this month, as opposed to the 'right' answer of five years ago. What a weird situation.
I've always prided myself in being able to answer questions intelligently and honestly and I went into the interview to really put it to the test for myself - not only to have whatever crappy ideas I myself might still have exposed, but to exercise my ability to dig down deep for the most intelligent, straightforward, satisfying answer possible. For the question �Can you practice this Knowledge and follow your own religion at the same time' the most honest answer would be 'yes, it's possible, but it would be hyprocritical if you did'. That blew all the cult programming fuses out of my mind at that moment, and when the 'thank you, you've helped me' ending was played and everyone clapped and said I did well, - man, that said it all to me: We're not only all a bunch of deceivers, we're a bunch of liars - which the cult rewards!
and 'watch-videos-until-you-are-numbed-into-having-all-questions-repressed.'
LOL - exactimondo
Talk to you later,
And I'm keeping the cheers to you coming,
Chris

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 10:20:58 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hi y'all and thanks..
Message:

Thanks Tonette, PatC, Jim, Richard and Joe for the nice welcomes - it is a tad scary being here... I've been enjoying your posts for the last while now, and I'm glad this chance is here to connect and share with fellow exiters! Woo-hoo!
You can imagine the gears that been grinding in my brain since exiting and learning what I can about cults, cult exiting and processing, and look forward to sharing lots of thoughts, musings, some 'drips' of my own, and a few LOL's all in good time with you all.
And I do solemnly vow :) um, endeavour (why DO people make vows to other people?!) to answer all messages I receive here as sincerely as possible, maybe not always right away and every day. I will say tho that Chris is my alias, so I'll be a bit skimpy on personal details, for the time being anyway - hope you don't mind.
For now, here's a tidbit on personality idolization (another fav topic of mine these days). Y'all remember The Speaker's astrology jokes about Pluto chasing his anus? Well for fun once, a friend drew up the natal horrorscope for December 10, 1957 - and we noted he has Moon in Leo characteristics, which are:
'...loves to be the center of attention, loves adoration, loves to be boss and king of his universe, has luxurious and expensive taste, and - get this - is born to shine on stage...'
yea, yea, sounds familiar
PLUS + Couple this with the fact that very few people actually see the world as it is; most people see things thru glasses colored by their own emotions
EQUALS = could be we have some of the makings of personality idolization phenomena?
Having come out the other end of a dream with the such an amazing twist at the end of it, I think it's really important to be really kind to ourselves in every big and tiny way possible.
I just treated myself to a new dining set in December. When I was visiting a PWK friend who had gone to Miami to hear the speaker's concert (I know I'm not missing much - I've heard him in Amaroo) her new place was sparsely furnished so I gave my old set to her. I also lumped in a calendar saved from 7 yrs or so ago (I save my favs and *re-use them) - a little holy relic: one with a photo of & quote from The Speaker on each month. She said 'Oh no, I can't - you SURE?' I said, 'Absolutely'...
There's much more.... but later.
And thanks and many cheers to you all,
Chris

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:38:56 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Hi y'all and thanks..
Message:

Fabulous posts 'chris.' A big loving welcome to you. You really seem to be doing quite well with such a humongous change of reality so quickly. I think your sense of humor is probably a big key.
Looking forward to more of your posts, love Katie Darling

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 23:06:19 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Aye - disculted...
Message:

Thanks Katie Darling - yes, I'm SO glad to be out. It's gotten way too ridiculous.
Likewise, looking forward to sharing stories - sad and funny - with you over the next while.
Chris

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 20:07:33 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Happy New Year - I'm unrecruiting...
Message:

Chris, here are your scores: Technical Program - 10 10 10 9.9 10 (darned Italian Judge).
Seriously, an excellent post and, as you will find, a very common theme amongst those here. Welcome!

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 10:26:38 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Annex to Redneck...
Message:

Annex to my last reply: And thanks for the scores (not that I care 2 lentils about my score), but thanks for the vote of confidence. By the way, are you a figure skating fan? (I like Kurt Browning and Lucinda Ruh - yay, Canada & yay, Schweiss....)\
Cheers,
Chris

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 09:38:47 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Hi New Age Red Neck!
Message:

Love your name! From where did you get your inspiration for that one, may I ask? Did it come to you in one of your meditations? Or, is it the politically correct term now for 'Gopi'? :) (Yikes! Just Kidding! :)
Cheers!

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:34:39 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Chris
Subject: Welcome, Chris
Message:

For so many of us who have left Rev Rawat's non-religious church in the past year it was the KITS crap that was the final straw. It was no longer possible to kid ourselves that it was a cult. I look forward to hearing a lot more from you.
I made my first post here a year ago today and I have learned a lot since - not only about how stuck in cult thinking I was but also how to communicate and give as good as I get from all the highly opinionated and argumentative but wonderfully irreverent and individualistic ex-premies.
BTW Many of us longterm premies still enjoy meditating. We got quite a lot of satisfaction out of it but most of us are trying to understand it in our own way in our own terms without all the Maharajism superstition.
Happy New Year and happy new life!
Patrick Conlon, San Francisco.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:57:15 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Welcome, Chris
Message:

Hey Chris-
Welcome, and best of luck in your recent exit.
It's amazing how many people have similar stories...as each new story comes out, it seems to paint a picture drawn from all of them.
Congratulations on your new found freedom.....my experience is that it only gets better and better...
Look forward to hearing more from you.
Jim S.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:42:21 (EST)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Thoughts for the new year...
Message:

It sounds like you are doing well. It's always great to hear about people who look closely at what is going on and can get out of the cult mindset. I know I would have never thought I was ever in a cult either, but that's exactly what it is.
I'm sure people in those trainings have to do lots of logical and ethical backflips to be able to deal with the dissonance. I'm also quite certain that none of that 'teamwork' crap will ever work in 'spreading knowledge,' and nor will learning how to deceitfully market it. People are just too smart for that, or at least most people are.
I would love to hear more about those trainings. Someone gave me a video of the Atlanta presentation you mention, but I haven't had the stomach to watch it yet. I have to get ready for that, and not have anything close by that I might just throw at the TV screen. :)
All the best, there are lots of people to give you support here, although you seem to be doing very well all by yourself. Do you know any other premies who are questioning? All the best,
Joe

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:28:03 (EST)
From: hgjgjh
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Repost (corrupted forum indec)
Message:

jgjshg

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:45:28 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM** whole thread! [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:44:56 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: Re: Thoughts for the new year...
Message:

Nigel, didn't I say that agriculture was unnatural and that if we were still hunter-gatherers, there would be no overpopulation? Like maybe over a two years ago? See??? Those wheat-eatin' vegans are the root of all evil! he he he he ..... :-)
Ok, I'm off to the winter hunt next weekend and do I feel better about it, now...... :-) BTW, I didn't 'sign-on' to that concept 10,000 years ago, like everybody else, so it's ok for ME to hunt.
Ok, ok I'll slink back into the shadows now... HAPPY NEW YEAR Nigel, it's really good to see your common sense (and great writing) are still present on the forum.

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:05:22 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Wheat eatin vegans eh!!
Message:

Out the back you newage redneck, and no hidin archery shit behind yer back either, I'll sort yer out.
Hi again,
but what exactly is a newage redneck??
:)

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Date: Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 11:37:13 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Wheat eatin vegans eh!!
Message:

HI Hammy,
A New-Age Redneck is a conservative that was once a liberal (who had since been mugged). :-)

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 20:11:45 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: Re: Thoughts for the new year...
Message:

Cool post. Yep we're all hunter-gathers by nature, for sure... Hunting is the way to go - for women too :)
Lots of love from Moley who knows about shrinking back into the shadows - NOT! :)

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 20:48:04 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Re: Thoughts for the new year...
Message:

Moley, so you're marrying Nigel? GooooooooD Choice! :-)
It's been awhile since I posted, due mainly to work. I was pretty active here for quite awhile, so I had the pleasure of trading posts with Nigel on a regular basis. Some 'other' folks didn't appreciate my pro-hunting stance, though. They didn't like my pro-second amendment stance much, either.... he he he :-) In fact, some thought I was pretty 'ugly,' whatever that means.... :-)
I've read some of your posts today and have enjoyed them immensely. I may be able to hang out a little more often since my job lets me work from home occasionally. I am a UNIX systems engineer, so it keeps me busy, but 'connected'..... :-)
Absotootly, women belong 'out there.' My wife hunts with me (we archery hunt, mostly). Got me a moose and an elk this yare.... ahilk ahilk ahilk..... :-)

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 21:41:57 (EST)
From: Nige
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: New-Age Redneck
Subject: New Age Redneck...
Message:

I think I know who you are (after a couple of wrong guesses). If you feel like emailing, please do...

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 19:54:35 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: Re: New Age Redneck...
Message:

Nigel, I will definitely do that! Thanks,

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:47:55 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: There's no law saying the truth has to be cheerful
Message:

In the face of Dawkin's bright courage, I am touched and I feel sad; even though a commoner suggesting his crown prince's brain has dropped out is satisfyingly funny.
I have been asking myself the question whether I can in all honesty accept that the possibility of a plague of humans turning to a benign and responsive course is plausible. It matters so much to me.
I have to allow that it is possible, I have to accept it does not appear plausible, viewed by me, from this moment in time. Has Richard Dawkins done the mathematics on the plausibility of the hope that he burns so brightly for?
That is a straightforward question, because I don't know how to do the mathematics, or even if it can be done.
Having just finished my second Dawkins book over the holidays, The Blind Watchmaker; whatever the future holds, I am thankful to him for his excellent books.
Congrats to you and Moley, Lesley

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:53:19 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Lesley
Subject: Lesley - you write so well
Message:

Yeh - that hope that burns brightly - can it be fulfilled? Is it plausible? I hope so - but that might just be the triumph of Hope over Reason [Nige: as opposed to Rawat who is the embodiment of the triumph of smile over content]- though I sure as hell hope it's more than that.... Well - what the hell - we write the scripts - we make it up as we go along.
We write our own scripts, as opposed to Rawat, who writes everyone else's except his own.
[Nige: scripts, scriptures, prescriptions and proscriptions. Mostly implicit these days, but authoritarian, nonethless. Every premie should make a new year's resolution of thinking this stuff through properly. Glad you like Dawkins, Lesley. The Blind Watchmaker was a book which went a way to changing my life and getting me out of cult-think a decade or so back.]
Thanks for your congrats Lesley, and lots of love to you
************xxxxxx Moley

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 15:26:52 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Ta Moley
Message:

It is good to think for myself now, I can't get over what a radical change for the better my life continues to take as I decompress from cultlife.
I am not coming to conclusions yet, re the future, I wonder if one can; but I could write a screed on it, lol.
My sister in law gave me The Selfish Gene to read shortly after I became an ex. I guess that becoming an ex puts you in the zone, as it were, where you can actually engage with your beliefs and examine them. I remember feeling like I stood alone; questioning the God myth at the age of 46 packed a bigger punch than questioning the Santa Claus myth at 6 did; so I was very glad of the company I got from Dawkin's book, I didn't want to get to the last page!

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 09:09:38 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Nigel, what did your post say?
Message:

When I click on it, all I get is Joe's post from the thread above.
Did I say Hotboards sucks? No, because I don't use that experession, but it does!
John the knows that this archive will take about an hour to put on EPO when I have the heart to do it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:38:04 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: Attemped repost...
Message:

I can't remember my own preamble (the moment has been lost) - it was all about Richard Dawkins being a thorn in the side of creationists, new-agists and maharajists ... and I reposted this excellent piece from Dawkins' open leter to 'Prince' Charles Windsor (apparently some eminent toff with opinons and a following of some sort among the British populace - for reasons I have never quite worked out)
[ Dawkins on the future for life on earth... ]

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:09:04 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Nigel, what did your post say?
Message:

Hi Nige/JHB - yikes! don't know what happened but these messages should have gone into the thread above - I apologize if I broke up your thread! Can it be fixed?

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:45:13 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: FA can you help?
Message:

Right, some weird techno-glitch. Somehow my post replaced Nigel's post, and a couple of other posts got replaced. FA, can you help?

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 13:57:36 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: FA can you help?
Message:

The last time I tried to sort out posts which got mixed up due to Hotboards assigning duplicate numbers to different posts I lost a great post of mine which I had not copied and saved. It happens about once a month.
It's a Hotboards glitch. Post numbers cannot be changed by the FA so basically you have to delete them all and repost them and hope that worse glitches don't happen. Gerry may have a solution I have not thought of. Sorry I can't help.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:39:37 (EST)
From: DANIELLE
Email: yves.argant@wanadoo.fr
To: All
Subject: New website - New forum
Message:

Welcome to this new website. It is open to anybody
wanting to share his or her experience of life
independently of having or not knowledge or
following or not Maharaji. What is important is
your sincerity above all.
You can post in english, it will be translated if
necessary and asked.
see you soon
http://www.multimania.com/premielibrex/index.htm
[ premielibrex website ]

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:12:28 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji.net online today...Weird!
Message:

Hello all, and Happy New Year
I just thought I'd check out the new Maharaji website and it's online, but it's very strange.
Check it out at your own risk...it appears to have nothing on it except a pop-up page, some new-age techo-music, and a little box that follows your cursor around...
Oh yeah, some poetry, too, and it froze my browser screen. I tried it on both netscape and IE.
Maybe it's a test run?
Oh well, oh well,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 13:20:23 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: what's the new URL?
Message:

yours said dot net and the old one was dot org. how do i get to it to take a look?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:39:30 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: It's dot orgy oops dot org [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 01:26:12 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Apparently only people with DSL or Cable
Message:

... need apply. Again, he's only playing to the upscale. The thing takes forever to load and I got nowhere with it on my modem.
--f

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 01:56:20 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Loads better the 2nd time
Message:

Guess some of the stuff is cached. Boy, he ought to write fortune cookie messages.

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 05:45:04 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: Loads better the 2nd time
Message:

Hi Francesca,
I had a hell of a time with a modem, waiting, waiting.... And that stupid box thingy drives me nuts.
I didn't bother to write to him. I don't like to feed the beast.

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 00:12:00 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I sent an e-mail, did anyone else?
Message:

I couldn't resist penning an impromptu e-mail to our man Maharaji. I told him his new web site sucked worse than the toilet bowl one. I suggested that he visit EPO or better yet Roger's house to gather some more original ideas.
Anyway, I got a laugh writing it. I know he'll never read it nor will I get a reply.
Happy New Year, although this is the silliest holiday in my book.
Tonette
What exactly is the point of his web site anyway? Talk about a waste of cyber space!

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 01:19:17 (EST)
From: Doug
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: I sent an e-mail, did anyone else?
Message:

Yes, I also sent email. I asked for his permission to have sex with
my wife, since his site says 'No reproduction without permission.'
Also told him that cursor shadow is irritating. Oh, and I suggested
he add a forum so he and premies could interact.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 09:34:12 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Doug
Subject: LOL, sex with your wife!!!
Message:

I also asked M what he thought about sex with children since he seems to like that sort of person.
Let me know if you get a reply and I'll do the same.
Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 00:43:01 (EST)
From: Doug
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: LOL, sex with your wife!!!
Message:

No reply as yet; and, of course, none is expected. Since this is his baby, I would guess out of curiousity he must be reading some of these messages. But whoever is, it must be a tad disconcerting to read the notes.
BTW
---
Even though I did not receive his permission for reproduction, my wife and I had sex last night anyway. In fact, I have to tell you (even though you didn't ask), that my libido seems to be at an all-time high. Could there be any connection to this new-found liberation? Meanwhile, my wife is wondering what in the hell is going on with me. Says I remind her of a labrador she used to have. Tee hee...

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 01:53:19 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Doug
Subject: So, how long has it been?
Message:

Since your last thought about sex? 5 seconds?
5 minutes?
5 hours?
or, 5 nanoseconds? Thought so.
Seriously, how long have you been out of the cult? Yes, sex is definately better with an ex.
Your post made me laugh and laugh.
Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 02:20:40 (EST)
From: Doug
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: So, how long has it been?
Message:

It is no coincidence that 'libido' and 'liberation' come from the same sanskrit stem word meaning 'great orgasims.' I probably haven't thought of sex for an hour or so since I came onto this forum which
is darn near as good! Why it's libalistic!
I only 'escaped the cult,' as I am learning to say, last month, after
28 years. You? Isn't this a blast?

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 03:06:02 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Doug
Subject: Left the cult long ago but........
Message:

I can't say exactly when I exited the cult but it was somewhere around 1982 to 1984. I had always had my doubts about the whole knowledge trip, foot kissing ritual, lord of the universe crap, master rap, driect line to within and such. Was never an ashramer, probably gave my most attention to Ralwat between 1976 to 1982 or so.
My husband and several good friends where however, fucked by Maharaji for much longer. My husband for instance, was in for 25 years or so. He was also never an ashramer but the cult did at times, interfer with my marriage to him.
Anyway, the forum can be a blast and very, very liberating of all the old ingrained concepts and beliefs we were fed. I have gotten burned here because I'm way too serious and sensitive for what is essentially a chat room. In short, I've had my feelings hurt which is silly when one considers these are only typed words to someone whom one does not know. But anyway, I am getting way off the matter at hand. Which is replying to your post.
Welcome back to 'the world' as it is and yes, it is a blast! I'm so glad that another devotee 'bites the dust' as they say.
I would love to see Maharaji pay and be renendered accountable for all that he has done in the name of 'knowledge.' What a poor excuse for a human being he is.
I'm so glad you are out. There will be many things now that you can partake of.
Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 03:05:01 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Doug
Subject: Funny, sensible and challenging
Message:

Good joke and sensible criticism about the trailing cursor thingy. The only websites with those anymore are teens' home pages on geocities.
Excellent suggestion that Rev Rawat ''add a forum so he and premies could interact.''

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 12:16:51 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Not true Pat
Message:

There's still some avant-garde sites with that happening, but they all have some content that challenges or is creative.
I'm wondering if he designed the site whether he's colour blind and doesn't know, the only flash site I've seen that looks like the 1950's, again almost impressive in a bizarre sort of way,, only he could so totally screw up.
Classic example of someone with no taste who's self indulgent, getting no critical feedback from those around him.
Just one day he has to realize what a twat he is.
I almost feel sorry for him it's so embarrassing, think I'll send him some flash url's and some course details from macromedia.

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 14:04:53 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: It was a dig, Ham
Message:

I really wanted to compare Rawat's contentless and inane website with those of Teenagers I've seen - vanity sites where they go on about their school grades and hobbies that no one's interested in except them (and maybe their doting parents.)
Vanity ''homepages'' all done in flash with all the other bells and whistles, obvioulsy done by someone with a monster puter and broadband ISP. A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:04:42 (EST)
From: hamzxen
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Just beautiful & so predictAble
Message:

the guy has a desperate need to be seen as cool, but he's always a bit late, which is so uncool. There's no hope for the fella, it's pretty sad.
The flash ideas have been nicked from elsewhere but badly designed, poor colour usage, and shite new age techno, the only thing you can say for gm is he's got no shame, which is almost a virtue.
Please note I predicted this two days ago, same as I predict that at some point he will start mc'ing his dodgy poetry over his sub-standard new age techno, will stop wearing ties to events etc etc.
I also predict that once he's burned through the teamwork and democracy numbers in training sessions and they don't work, cause you can't fake such things, he'll then have to deal with the latest social zeitgeist after teamwork and democracy, no gurus/leaders. That should be highly amusing.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:18:51 (EST)
From: Amen, sister
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: What a silly site...
Message:

I agree....techno/hallmark card poetry/slick/fluff/ultimately giving and saying nothing/waste of time/where's the beef?/so what?/is that all?/you got to be kidding/you get paid for this shit?/get a real job and work for a living/don't quit the day job, whatever that might be/come again/say what?/damn, but I got fooled again....
These are a few words I would use to describe m's new site, which apparently he designed.....actually, those words are how I would describe him as well, so I guess the nut doesn't fall far from the tree, as they say....

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:27:57 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Amen, sister
Subject: Re: What a silly site...
Message:

Design and content � 2001 Prem Rawat
Reproduction by permission only
I bet the church ladies are going ape shit over it though.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:05:57 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: All hat and no cattle.
Message:

That's a great old Texas saying that seems to apply here.
As a web designer, I can speak from experience that the naive and inexperienced web designer will always go for the bells and whistles while sacrificing ease of use and content. Hamzen said M would use Flash and he was right.
I'm certain the new site will once again prove to the enchanted devotees that M is a true genius, auto-didact and renaissance man.
Richard, part time design critic

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:31:13 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: All hat and no cattle.
Message:

He's actually a shitty everything...
I wonder what happened to the pal in Prempal. It's copyrighted by Prem Rawat. Is that the new nickname for all his friends? (Cough) I meant devotees?

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:54:14 (EST)
From: Amen, sister
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Design:C -, Content-F(zero) nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 14:59:26 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: I first posted on forum a year ago today
Message:

Today I am celebrating my one year anniversary of being an ex-premie. When I first posted I was still scared of the cult and posted anonymously as ''Thelma.'' Also I thought ex-premies were fanatics and I did not want to be called an ''ex-premie'' so I called myself an ''un-premie.''
I just looked in the archives and here is my first post, warts and all. It was a reply to ''Andrew'' a non-premie. It really is embarassing to see how arrogant I was. I had drunk a few glasses of wine with dinner and smoked a doobie or two before posting to give me Dutch courage.
Within a few hours of posting my first message I was having a fight with nearly everyone on the forum. Oh boy! Did I make a fool of myself..............
Posted by ''Thelma the Thunderstealing Bitch'' on Jan 1st 2001:
I have never posted here before but have been following this site for a couple of years even though I still practice the kriya yoga (Knowledge) techniques and have until recently listened to M's increasingly trivial and tatselessly self-congratulatory talks. However your questions seemed too earnest to ignore.
After having been involved in the organization for 12 years I dropped out of it 15 years ago because I could no longer stomach the church-ladies and their endless fussing over white table-cloths and their weird messianic expectations. About a year ago decided to get involved in the local community when I heard that some sort of democratic glasnost was taking place. I was hoping to be able to help to deconstruct the whole guru-worship/personality cult thing and assert that Knowledge is far more important than a very fallible and mortal human being no matter how supposedly advanced a yogi he is. (Knowledge to me is a democratic not a dictatorial thing - I came to it because of the whole hippie-psychedelic love revolution.) Needless to say I failed and had to retreat. But that's a whole nother story which I will post if anyone's interested.
You ask: 'To what extent is Knowledge independent of M (not in an historical sense which we know it is, but in a psychological sense)? Do any of you who have rejected M still practice Knowledge because of the strength of the meditation techniques themselves?'
I answer: I have rejected M as my teacher because I really can't stand rich greedy undemocratic libertarians which is what he still is and always has been. Having once been one of the anti-apartheid 'communists' they put in jail in South Africa in the sixties I guess I'll always be a shit-stirring pinko hippie fag. M does have psychological control over Knowledge if you let him have it. Knowledge is what you make of it yourself. Any benefits derived from it are purely from your own effort. If you are asking this question because you are interested in getting Knowledge I would advise you to wait until the shit hits the fan - which it will. There is a movement afoot that will eventually blow M's game.
They are what I call the 'unpremie' culture. And there are more of us around than either ex-premies or cult-premies. In fact I'm thinking of doing a website for people with Knowledge who want to get high but can't stand the church-ladies of Elan Vital or the Holy Cow who runs the show. They worship cows - and gurus - in that supposed land of enlightenment, India. In America we eat cows and require gurus to obey the laws of democracy. But I can't get into being angry or bitter which is why I don't waste my time posting vituperative comments here. I just wanna get high. Knowledge is an old and tried and trusted way to do that. But the techniques are not nearly as important as your own efforts to be more conscious which is why many other forms of meditation achieve the same end result. Just sitting (za-zen) and practicing silence and awareness can do it. It is the desire to be high that gets you high. Knowledge is not some magic formula. I have practiced and enjoyed it for 28 years and I can tell you that one's efforts are more important than the techniques.
Wishing you all health, wealth and happiness for this new century,
Thelma the Thunderstealing Bitch

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:43:25 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Happy Anniversary!!
Message:

I didn't know you were ever Thelma! That's funny!!
God, I remeber when I first posted! I was so nervous, so most of the time I got drunk first. Boy was I ever witty, NOT! Let's see, I think it was July 2000. And I remember absolutely hating Jim Heller at the time.
It's been fun watching this forum and all that has transpired and no way on God's green Earth do I intend to go into the archives and see what as fool I was at times. Way too embarrassing.
This forum has changed too in many ways, not the least of which is the forum is much gentler.
I've enjoyed reading your posts and kinda following your evolution out of the cult, or however you want to put it.
Love and best wishes, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:52:18 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Well, Thelma got drunk and fell on her face
Message:

about two days after I first started to post. I then changed my name to Frank (this so embarassing) which is the pseudonym under which I had done a website for colostomates.
Frank also fizzled and I came out a few days after that. Terrified but knowing that I could not live with any more deceit after swallowing enough secrets and lies from the cult to last me several lifetimes.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 05:20:58 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I remember it was my soon to be
Message:

It was my soon to be ex husband, that's ex-premie not an ex-x, who showed me the forum in the first place. Then he got a little freaked out when he discovered I had been posting. Especially since I'd come home from work, get the kids off to school, fire up the computer and pop the cork. I could be found hours later, still on line and by now quite inebriated. I remember once, he posted a reply to me from his office, something to the effect of 'go to bed' and it was in real time, so he must of been watching. It's funny when I think about it now.
Although I had exited years earlier, coming to EPO and posting on the forum, really stirred up alot of crap inside my head and heart that I wasn't even aware I had.
Sorry I missed Frank. Thelma was good and just like the real you, although she was the real you too in a way, I guess, interesting to read.
Take care and have a laugh, wine is good too!
Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 20:48:57 (EST)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: That's the funniest story I've read today
Message:

It reminds me of a TV show I saw about how a man and a woman met on the net. They were so shy they still preferred talking to each other over the net. So, whenever, they wanted sex or had an argument they would go to separate computers and talk to each other. The funny thing is they seemed so sane and sweet in real life.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:04:36 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I remember those days well
Message:

I couldn't have gone through this as quickly and easily without you Pat, and Thelma too, what a riot.
You have been a wealth of information, and have provided many laughs and much inspiration. I remember at one point when I was really going through it in the worst way and you told me I was your favorite poster on the forum.
That small gesture of kindness kept me going for days, I will treasure your thoughtfullness always.
We've had some good times on the forum, the many emails plus getting to meet you in person only confirmed what a great person you are, many thanks and Happy New Year to you and yours Dear Friend.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 04:56:22 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: I remember those days well
Message:

I think you were my favorite poster at that time because our exits were so parallel. Of course, after I met you, I realized that we had been separated at birth ;) as Fran says.

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:27:12 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: And I remember the shiteload of e-mails
Message:

... between you and I prior to you becoming an ex! LOLs. In trying to get you to see that you were in a cult, I ended up seeing that my involvement in formal Tibetan Buddhism (w/a lama=guru) was also a cult!
Ha ha. We deprogrammed each other! Separated at birth!!!
Love and pieces,
--f

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 20:05:34 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: And I remember the shiteload of e-mails
Message:

I was pussyfooting around you because I was not sure if you were still into it. After all there were other fringe premies who were into buddhism but did not like criticism of M.
I was critizing the church ladies but still could not see that Rawat was the real problem. It took the video of the Atlanta training to let me see that he was a fraud.
Both of us were hesitant about posting here and then I read Dettmers stuff and then you did and the next thing we were here. Thanks to Dettmers.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 22:26:43 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Happy Anniversary Pat
Message:

I had a couple of reactions when you started talking about 'kriyas,' let me tell you. That, and how I react when somebody calls himself a 'fag.' I hate that, but I'm getting better; I actually like the word 'queer' now, so even middle aged queers like me can learn new things!
But it is interesting that you were so afraid to post. I think it's a good topic to keep bringing up -- how it takes so much courage to publicly state what your bullshit detector is telling you is the truth.
BTW, we went to a great show at the Victoria Theater last night -- all gay comedy night, with our own President of the Board of Supervisors as one of the performers. Best of his jokes:
'Monica Lewinsky turned 28 this week, and it just seems like yesterday she was crawling around on the carpet in the Oval Office.'
Cracked me up!

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 23:50:35 (EST)
From: PatC - Your first post to me
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: ''Don't knock Berkeley''
Message:

Thanks for your kind words, Joe. Here's our first exchange before you knew who I was. I said to you (not knowing yet who you were):
As you so rightly point out: 'Knowledge' is indeed a 'loaded and meaningless term.' I just don't know what else to call it as I am not some 'master' who needs to package his product in sound-bites. It's called kriya yoga in India but is so mixed up with primitive cow-worship and guru-bhakti shit that it is impenetrable to all but the most desperately self-deluded New Age Birkenstock-shod crystal-gazing vegans in need of a blood transfusion from Berkeley.
Maybe I never practiced 'Knowledge' in all the 28 years I thought I was doing it but I enjoy taking an hour every morning to be quiet, relax and feel comfortable and refreshed. Everything else experienced 'inside oneself' is by definition subjective and unprovable. As I said to Gerry I just want to have some fun and get high with a little help from my friends.
You responded:
Don't Knock Berkeley
My boyfriend is from Berkeley, so I've been spending a lot more time there, and you might find it is a bit more Yuppified these days, with astronomical housing costs. Not quite so new age, anymore. It has become a Gourmet Ghetto, you know, Che Panisse and the like, but not a lot of BMWs, more Saabs and Volvos. Lots and lots of Volvos.
Come to think of it, why didn't we start worshipping cows? If Maharaji had said to do it, I probably would have.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:16:34 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I remember it well you buggert
Message:

There were me and gerry chasing this anarchist punk bit of skirt around the forum only to find..... ahhh well.
A breath of fresh air Pat, and good to see how much input you've put in over time time, I raise a glass to ya.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 21:17:23 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: You were the first ex to answer me
Message:

I was so tickled when you said you thought you were in love with Thelma.
But you must not have had your reading glasses on when you read my post because I clearly stated I was a ''pinko fag.''
Now if only I could get some tips on some good dance music. I'm open to anything which puts wings on my feet. Rediscovered how much I like disco and R&B the other day (took me back to my roaring twenties) when watching ''The Diary of Bridget Jones'' which you would probably not like but I loved it - a romantic comedy in the Hollywood tradition.
I think you first welcomed me because you're such a contrarian. I also kept you answer to me when I unzipped the archive this morning. Here it is.....................
From Hamzen to Thelma Jan 1st 2001
By the way hi, always good to see new people posting, and as a fellow libertarian, the main reason I'm here, this site should reflect all flavours, even if a lot of us here find any kind of spiritual route hogwash, there are a number of others who don't, and even if you were the only one, so what, I'm sure someone who did jail fighting anti-apartheid can cope with a bit of verbal flak if it comes.
After having been involved in the organization for 12 years I dropped out of it 15 years ago because I could no longer stomach the church-ladies and their endless fussing over white table-cloths and their weird messianic expectations. About a year ago decided to get involved in the local community when I heard that some sort of democratic glasnost was taking place. I was hoping to be able to help to deconstruct the whole guru-worship/personality cult thing and assert that Knowledge is far more important than a very fallible and mortal human being no matter how supposedly advanced a yogi he is. (Knowledge to me is a democratic not a dictatorial thing - I came to it because of the whole hippie-psychedelic love revolution.) Needless to say I failed and had to retreat. But that's a whole nother story which I will post if anyone's interested.
Think you're journey of going back after a long break would help deconstruct the myth that it's all changed which we know it hasn't, rinse out the pr/spin side of ev/gm
I answer: I have rejected M as my teacher because I really can't stand rich greedy undemocratic libertarians which is what he still is and always has been. Having once been one of the anti-apartheid 'communists' they put in jail in South Africa in the sixties I guess I'll always be a shit-stirring pinko hippie fag. M does have psychological control over Knowledge if you let him have it. Knowledge is what you make of it yourself. Any benefits derived from it are purely from your own effort. If you are asking this question because you are interested in getting Knowledge I would advise you to wait until the shit hits the fan - which it will.
Practice of k, and I say it as someone who it worked for big-time, I left because he obviously had no desire to spread this k, is as much about luck as anything else if it works. Before coming here I would have agreed with you, but a number of people have convinced me otherwise. There are a number of people here who practiced k assiduously and with sincerity for years, nay decades, and their sincerity produced minimal experiences of value. But re k, the techniques are freely available on this site. With the techniques, the luck that they are the right techniques for you, and the right attitude, there is no need for any involvement at all, in fact would say anyone getting involved is seriouslyt risking their mental health.
They are what I call the 'unpremie' culture. And there are more of us around than either ex-premies or cult-premies. In fact I'm thinking of doing a website for people with Knowledge who want to get high but can't stand the church-ladies of Elan Vital or the Holy Cow who runs the show. They worship cows - and gurus - in that supposed land of enlightenment, India. In America we eat cows and require gurus to obey the laws of democracy. But I can't get into being angry or bitter which is why I don't waste my time posting vituperative comments here. I just wanna get high. Knowledge is an old and tried and trusted way to do that. But the techniques are not nearly as important as your own efforts to be more conscious which is why many other forms of meditation achieve the same end result. Just sitting (za-zen) and practicing silence and awareness can do it. It is the desire to be high that gets you high. Knowledge is not some magic formula. I have practiced and enjoyed it for 28 years and I can tell you that one's efforts are more important than the techniques.
You don't have to be angry or bitter to post here, like you most of my life is deicated to getting high, whether through k or other chemikals or just living, a lot of this site is also about community, sharing, not just attacking gm.
It is also obvious that you can't stand gm, that makes you an ex-premie whether you accept that or not, this site is specifically about the fraudulence of gm, not dissing k. He sells the package on the triangle, the individual, k, and gm. He makes it quite plain that he is crucial to the process, if you don't believe that you aree an ex-premie, premie doesn't just mean a believer in god, but a believer that ONLY gm has the power to show you this experience.
Here's hoping you hang around, even if just occasionally, the more libertarians the better I say.
By the way, say hello to Louise!

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 20:30:42 (EST)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: ditto every word, Ham
Message:

I had a couple of sharp words for Thelma at one point. But it was only the once, and not even that sharp. And apart from the un-premie/ex-premie bit, wasn't that a great first post of Pat's?
And having spoken to Pat C by the miracle of modern telephone technology....well, what a great bloke.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 21:30:16 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nige
Subject: You're making me teary, Nige
Message:

You are one of my favorite writers here in spite of being such a damn pinko - well that goes for most of my favorite writers here like Ham and Anth and JohnT. Jesus, you're all bloody pinkos ......... and Brits! Hmmm. I wonder why?
Yes thanks to Victorian technology oh and satellites of course, I was able to talk to you and Moley and was shocked at how much like kids you sounded. And how much your voices told me about your warmth, kindness and civility.
Of course I am only now beginning to see the faces behind the words here as middle-aged. For most of last year those faces appeared in my mind's eye as we all were in our blissfully ignorant youth.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:58:47 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: I first posted on forum a year ago today
Message:

And I'm glad you did, Pat. What a year it's been - one to remember for sure.
You have contributed at least as much as everyone else who speaks the truth about what they think and feel. The company of truth, humor and humanity is what brings me back again and again.
Now you've got me thinking when I first posted as Postie. I'll have to dig through the archives for that and my first post as myself.
Richard

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:15:38 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Richard
Subject: To Thelma and Postie
Message:

You have contributed at least as much as everyone else who speaks the truth about what they think and feel.
Well, that applies to both of you! So very glad I met you both here in this ultimate cyberspace pub. Halcyon days that never end...
A year to remember! And another one to come.
Much Love from Moley ********************

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 21:35:49 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: To Postie and Moldy Warp
Message:

As I've said before, ad nauseam, where have all the flowers - the beautiful premies who drew me into Maharajism - gone? Gone to forum everyone.
Didn't we have fun last year in spite of the thoroughly modern immoral PWKs of CAC?

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 21:31:59 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: To Postie and Moldy Warp
Message:

Ditto ditto and ditto **************** Gone to flowers everyone

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:23:42 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: To Postie...
Message:

Congratulations, Richard,
What I've been loving lately is that we have reclaimed the the hindu word 'satsang' and then have released it back to forever belong to the cult as a lie. Not here.
I know I have good company here, honesty, and trust.
As you said:
The company of truth, humor and humanity is what brings me back again and again.
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:12:57 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Your first post as yourself
Message:

Your first post as Postie was before my time but I will never forget your coming out party. I think it was in April and it triggered off a whole wave of coming outs. Then we all began to put pics of ourselves on line and you began to do all our Get Smart Cards. And lots of new people exited and....
It was a very good year.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:49:54 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Get Smart cards
Message:

Thanks, Pat. I'll check the April archives. Meanwhile, here are the Get Smart cards you mentioned.
Richard
[ Get Smart Cards ]

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 20:57:14 (EST)
From: New-Age Redneck
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: Get Smart cards
Message:

Richard, I almost wet myself!
Nigel: That's a very flattering pix..... I really LIKE it! What's the bottle not full of? It was obviously something good :-)

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 15:17:31 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You've come a long way, Baby!!! [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 11:41:47 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Lifeline
Message:

I would have never made it in those early days without you Pat. The fear and confusion and sadness were softened many times by your thoughtful posts. I felt like a baby bird under a protective wing when I would come to the forum and say something stupid. You have a very soothing affect when it is needed the most. Thelma, on the otherhand is an irreverant gem of a wit! I can't count the times I threw my head back in laughter. The first time I read the nickname 'Industrial strength churchladies' was probably the first laugh I had after discovering the cheat and deceit, and there wasn't much to laugh about. Keep up the good work, Sir Patrick!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 03, 2002 at 14:08:31 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: I thank Pauline Premie, Vicki
Message:

That first night I posted, Pauline Premie wrote a piece and I laughed so hard I had tears in my eyes. That made me think that maybe I should post as someone silly like Thelma the Church lady.
There is no humor in the cult and it was so refreshing to see the exes having such fun. Unfortunately the Thelma persona did not work when I posted about the recent suicide of an aspirant and I had to get serious fast.
Many of your posts have helped me to see things more clearly too. We shared a huge chunk of our lives doing the same thing and....well, the forum has turned out to be a wonderful surprise. One of the best surprises was actually meeting Pauline in person. :)
As soon as you're well enough come and let me wine and dine you like royalty. If you like we could invite a few others and have a mini Latvian night.

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 01:42:05 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Can't wait! (nt)
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 19:44:07 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Why wait? Just come on down! :) [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 11:36:44 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: A proposal... (ot)
Message:

Moley, will you marry me?

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Date: Sat, Jan 05, 2002 at 18:37:35 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The first 30 years are the worst.
Message:

After that it's plain sailing.
All the best to you and Moley Nigel.
Are you having a party? Can I come? Are you going to Cornwall for your honeymoon? I'll show you the wrecked tanker (which is right round the corner from our shack.)
Take care.
Anth the ligger.

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Date: Fri, Jan 04, 2002 at 17:58:29 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That is so sweet Nigel
Message:

Congradulations Moley, you bagged a cool guy, and vice versa.

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 17:24:45 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: A proposal... (ot)
Message:

Right here I am, last to congratulate you even though I only live round the corner from you. Congratulations! not sure about the pink tutu though I fancy black myself. Anyway lets get together soon now the ludicrous season is over.
Lots of love Mags

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 21:54:33 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Re: A proposal... (ot)
Message:

Black is cool - very cool! Yep, now the ludicrous season is a gone and done, let's get tooo gether ********

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 20:47:39 (EST)
From: nige
Email: nige@redcrow,demon,co.uk
To: magiclara
Subject: Hi Mags!
Message:

WHAT did you say your cat was called..? ;)
(and, yes, we'll all go to the Albert again ere winter has passed. The boating lake in Sefton Park is frozen over and the ducks, swans and geese were strolling about on the ice. We went there yesterday with Moley's tribe. Bacon butties in the wonderful, sleazy Victorian cafe. Then the refurbished Palm House and Darwin statue.. God, I love Liverpool. How could anyone not?
Take care and we'll see you, your fellah and Loafie soon, I hope..xx

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 23:01:09 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: congratulations
Message:

think you're both very sweet - enjoy!

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 20:30:41 (EST)
From: Nige
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Abi
Subject: Re: congratulations
Message:

think you're both very sweet - enjoy!

---
Sweet? (Hmm... easy enough to say when you haven't seen me before my first three cups of coffee in the morning)
Moley's sweet though, for sure. And so are you, I reckon. Thanks, Abi - much appreciated.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 18:28:55 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Hey Moley,Nige...
Message:

Haha what a riot.....all the very best to ya both.
Was it random selection or divine intervention?....
Whatever it was, here's wishing LADY LUCK stays with you both continually.
Cheers
Dermot

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 18:53:07 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Dermot
Subject: Hey Dermot
Message:

Mulcho thanks!!! Most definite;y NOT divine intervention!!.
As I write this Nige is saying that he wants to meet you - me tooooo! Should we go on a longo trek round the Lakes :) with numerous pub stops?
****************xxx Moley, you're pal from the wild heathen Northlands

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:52:49 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Congratulations Nigel and Moley
Message:

My wife wants to know if you can get pregnant over the internet.

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 01:25:29 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Congratulations Nigel and Moley
Message:

Only if the interfacing computers are compatible and you have M's
permission to reproduce.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:02:11 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Congratulations Nigel and Moley
Message:

Tell her - Not if you type with yer legs shut :) But what the hell. That's for the cautious-minded of this world - me, I'd go for the type-with-yer-legs-open-and-the Devil-take-the-hindmost scenario. More interesting!

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:32:55 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I have to tell you Nige...
Message:

You are one hellava man. Posting a marriage proposal on F7!
Moley, you are a lucky, blessed woman who I hope to get to know more in 2002.
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:53:47 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: I have to tell you Nige...
Message:

Gee you're right there Cynth - I'm the pussy-cat that got all the cream!!!!
Sure hope we'll get to know each other too - in the cyber-pub that is the FORUM
Lots of Love from Moley ****xxxxx

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 14:59:08 (EST)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Congratulations!
Message:

Congrats Moley, I've never met you but Nigel is one of the nicest guys I've met on short acquaintance, at the Latvian bash. May you both be happy, healthy and long lived.
Tim

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:22:19 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Tim G- I'm even nicer!!!
Message:

Ney - perfect, if I say so myself :)
Arti and Camilla are still reviewing you're 'Midnight Fry' CD... Cool stuff, and we're gonna you some of our stuff soooon,
Lots of Love,
Moley ************xxxxx

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 14:29:06 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The answer (ot)
Message:

Yes Nigel, I will.

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:15:58 (EST)
From: hamxen
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: You pair of sad fuckers you
Message:

Really hope you have a good one, you two, and Nigel if you need a dj I'll break my record of having avoided anything to do with marriages ever (apart from my own tiny registry office do).
Moley, I'm a bit worried about you that you can contemplate time with him though, I'd seek professional guidance.
Big cheers to both of ya

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 20:19:20 (EST)
From: nige
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: hamxen
Subject: Hey Mr DJ..
Message:

So good to speak to you again, Hamji. You are one of the best - Moles says so too. Who wouldn't? (hmm...maybe not Catweasel...) Luv to Jethro & Barbara. Email me about tapes and stuff.
Time to get on with my wicker-work...
Nige..;)

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:37:19 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: hamxen
Subject: Sad fuckers indeed..
Message:

The thing is, I spent at least half of my 16 year marriage saying 'never again'. But at that point in my life I had not yet encountered another human being who you can't imagine ever being apart from. 'Coz that's what has happened, and there ain't a lot you can do but swim with the tide... And it could happen to anyone, believe me.
Yeah, of COURSE you can do the sounds, Hamji. So now we have the bridesmaids and DJ - it is all coming together. We reckon on having a mad, Wicker Man-type, fancy-dress, pagan, Latvian do sometime this year (PatC as vicar?), and later, when the divorces come through, the real thing. Maybe Padre Mickey could officiate? (as long as he leaves religion out of it;)

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:09:39 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: A wicker man pagan wedding, excellent
Message:

I'm really pleased for the pair of you, and forgetting all the other stuff here who's value is undoubted, a marriage too, tops.
In fact you could say a marriage made in heaven indeed, jus remember though, you pair of loosers not to look too happy, you're supposed to be miserable ex-premies after all.
What a great start to the new year.
Nige I've got a couple of tapes recorded for ya, you still at the same address?

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 19:24:33 (EST)
From: Nige
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Same address and phone no,,
Message:

No secrets, no anonymity. No fear of Rawat or EV. Honesty has nothing to hide.
(0)151 281 3493 (Got that, CAC profilers?)
Send us a tape. We'll send you some of our stuff soon..
Happy mushrooming, me ole muckspreader..

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:44:11 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Oh goody, I'll be vicar....
Message:

...as long as I can do it in drag. I always wanted to be one of those lesbian vicars in earth shoes tossing rose petals over lovers in wiccan rituals. ;)

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 19:49:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Congratulations Nige and Moley!
Message:

Sounds splendiforous, the brewing celebration!!! I am filled with joy for both of you, really.
Love,
Robyn

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Date: Wed, Jan 02, 2002 at 14:12:45 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Vicar + Wiccan = Pat the Viccan? [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 16:50:42 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Oh goody, I'll be vicar....
Message:

Oh God - YES !!! Wild horses won't keep us from San Fran this year!! Get yer frock designed babe! HAS to be purple! With gold glittery bits. Mostest lots of love to you on this fantabulous New Year's Day!!!
********************************xx Moley

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Date: Tues, Jan 01, 2002 at 17:13:58 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To:

Subject: be purple with gold glittery bits.
Message:

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All Rights Reserved

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