Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 01, 2002 To: Jan 08, 2002 Page: 1 of: 5


Cynthia -:- Pedophiles and the Vatican NOT OT -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:12:07 (EST)

Joe -:- Passages -- Insulting Cult Revisionist Spin -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 12:18:38 (EST)
__ Lesley -:- The Triangle -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 16:32:12 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- Re: Cult Revisionism -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:27:58 (EST)

Jim -:- EV's death throttle? M's demise? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 11:55:41 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Good Riddance. -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 15:56:52 (EST)
__ Joe -:- His children threatened??? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:51:04 (EST)
__ salsa -:- Why? Where this number comes from? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 13:04:26 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- What a great post -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 12:40:30 (EST)

Mirror -:- The Teacher Trap -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 10:48:02 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Re: The Teacher Trap -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:59:54 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- At the feet of the master -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 11:55:38 (EST)

Vicki -:- Buying into lila -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 06:17:13 (EST)
__ Mirror -:- Re: Buying into lila -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 08:02:12 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- ''But we can never understand the Master'' -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:46:45 (EST)

Marianne -:- Saris and Hindu ritual made you leave M? -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:58:11 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- The premies trying to be something they were not! -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 10:25:10 (EST)
__ Salam -:- Re: Saris and Hindu ritual made you leave M? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:00:00 (EST)
__ Boadicea -:- Not this little Black Duck!!!(nt) -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:22:49 (EST)
__ __ Cynthai -:- Oh Yeah, I always wore Saris... -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 01:20:23 (EST)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- twas a painful sight -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 01:59:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- How many of you spoke with a Hindu/English accent? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 12:57:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- We did it as a joke. -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 13:14:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: We did it as a joke. -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:19:09 (EST)

Boadicea -:- Hi Salaam -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 21:39:12 (EST)
__ salam -:- oh hello -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:27:17 (EST)
__ __ Boadicea -:- Re: oh hello -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:35:05 (EST)
__ __ __ Salam -:- what r ya -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:59:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Boadicea -:- Re: what r ya -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:07:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- is that it? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 09:42:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- de native Salam is reckless -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:57:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- hello Zeee -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:46:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hello Salam... -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 01:25:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- oh cynthia darling -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:56:35 (EST)

Francesca -:- M's website reproduction restrictions -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 19:38:42 (EST)
__ Salam -:- M's website reproduction restrictions -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 19:57:16 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Yo Salam. -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:53:24 (EST)
__ __ __ salam -:- good -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:50:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Boadicea -:- Re: Yo Salam. -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 21:49:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Say hi to Julie from me.... -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:27:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Boadicea -:- Re: Say hi to Julie from me.... -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 16:16:55 (EST)

yeah_right_210 -:- maharaji.net -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 17:15:55 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Freudian Slip -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:34:53 (EST)
__ Salam -:- maharaji.net -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:11:21 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- You misread the magnetic squares -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:37:51 (EST)
__ __ Disculta -:- Memed out -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 19:40:02 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- The 1976 devotional olympics! Good one! [nt] -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 12:52:23 (EST)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Hola guapa -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:37:34 (EST)
__ __ __ yeah_right_210 -:- Re: Memed out -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 21:38:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ WMary -:- Re: Memed out -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 09:15:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Boadicea -:- Re: Memed out -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:55:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ yeah_right_210 -:- Re: Memed out -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 13:59:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ WMary -:- Re: Memed out -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:40:56 (EST)

Visions Int'l -:- Inventory Sale -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 15:54:52 (EST)
__ Anandaji -:- Re: Inventory Sale -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:50:19 (EST)
__ Elan Newsletter -:- is now closed -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 16:17:09 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- EV did announce this -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 16:33:12 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- messages on First Class -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 19:19:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: messages on First Class -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:49:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hi Mirror. Thanks for the news. -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:12:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Well, at least they wished you good luck... -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 13:17:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: messages on First Class -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:11:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Derek, what about the Amaroo sale? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 15:46:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Gail -:- Wheezy, why don't you come out and play? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 15:20:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Pussy, I was not talking about you... -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:20:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- That's RICH CatWizard! Boring here? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 09:25:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Gordon Showcase -:- What no PWKs? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 02:45:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- They know when they're beaten Pat. -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:47:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Don't talk to exes on the net? -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:45:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- I hope Derek Harper comes back Marianne -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:49:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Is that true? Is Maharaji selling another gem? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 09:29:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- See Jim's post above. (nt) -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 15:42:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- He's busy selling his percentage -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:56:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Boudicca -:- Re: He's busy selling his percentage -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 21:57:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hey there warrior -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:07:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Boadicea -:- Re: Hey there warrior -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:56:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- You'll be all right, B -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:01:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ B -:- Re: You'll be all right, B -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:24:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: You'll be all right, B -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:39:32 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Passages Still Available -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 16:16:55 (EST)
__ __ Ulf -:- Re: Passages Still Available -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 17:50:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Here it is again and now what? -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 19:23:44 (EST)

Tonette -:- Here is what I wrote to two dear friends -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 01:53:01 (EST)
__ Zelda -:- Re: Here is what I wrote to two dear friends -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:28:04 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- Thank you and you make a great point! -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:07:30 (EST)
__ __ Boadicea -:- Re: Here is what I wrote to two dear friends -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:38:48 (EST)
__ Boadicea -:- Re: Here is what I wrote to two dear friends -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:07:20 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- Glad to help. -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:53:56 (EST)
__ PatC -:- I'm making a copy to send to friends -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 14:42:14 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- Thanks Pat. It felt good to write to them -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:04:30 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- My Comments... -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:24:05 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Addendum to My Comments... -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:20:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- You weren't harsh at all. -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:00:10 (EST)
__ Hey Tonette -:- I need some SCRUBS -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 07:55:59 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- Wow John! Surprise, surprise!! -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:09:41 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Go Scrub yourself -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:18:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- AHHahhhhaaahhhh! Good one Marianne! -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:09:13 (EST)
__ __ __ John G -:- No, Marianne...a misunderstanding -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 13:36:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Oops. sorry -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 13:59:34 (EST)
__ wolfi -:- you dropped a bomb -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 05:57:01 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- okay then. Thanks for the input. nt -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:21:35 (EST)
__ __ Peg -:- Tonnette -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 06:35:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- My mother refused to teach me French -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:32:29 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Is maharaji an alcoholic? -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 05:35:28 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- Good point, he may very well not be an alcoholic. -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:24:23 (EST)
__ __ Boadicea -:- Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic? -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:29:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- No, Don't Throw It Away... -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:58:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Boadicea -:- Hi Cynthia -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 01:21:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Hi Boudicca -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 12:46:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic? -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:54:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Boadicea -:- Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:21:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Throw the bottle in the trash -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:48:06 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- Dylan Thomas's definition.. -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 08:19:31 (EST)
__ __ __ magnolia -:- dylan thomas the gifted alcoholic -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 13:06:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Long time no see, magnolia -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 14:48:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ magnolia -:- new year, same old damn guru! -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 17:22:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- It's worth the wait, Blossom -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 17:49:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Divine Times in the closet? -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 17:36:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- M's alcoholism -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 13:23:38 (EST)
__ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: Dylan Thomas's definition.. -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 11:32:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- More please... -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 08:26:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Absolutely right..... -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:14:10 (EST)
__ __ __ wolfie -:- too much dope and champane -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 11:06:10 (EST)
__ __ __ wolfie -:- -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 11:03:47 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic? -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 07:56:02 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic? -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:08:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ wolfie -:- Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic? -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:37:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks Cynthia -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:15:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- It only takes one drink a year -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:39:03 (EST)

Joe -:- Ron Geaves -:- Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 23:23:39 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Earth calling Ron. -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:04:34 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- At this point, it may be impossible -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:12:09 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- letting go of idealised love -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:36:42 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- That's confronting allright....... -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 02:32:11 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- habitual revisionism -:- Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 23:43:32 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Good point....Ron Geaves -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:30:19 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- did you get my email Joe ? [nt] -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 14:32:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yes, will respond later (nt) -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:47:12 (EST)
__ __ michael donner -:- absolutely, well said! (nt) -:- Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 11:36:29 (EST)


Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:12:07 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Pedophiles and the Vatican NOT OT
Message:
I came across this report and thought it pertinent to the Maharajism cult and the lack of action, the lying, and the cover-up by Maharaji and his inner circle the about the sexual abuse of children by (Mahatma) Jagdeo.

I believe that the years long cover up and protection of this pedophile, Jagdeo by Maharaji/EV to be the most heinous of Maharaji's amoral behavior. Not only have Jagdeo's victims been forthright and painfully honest about their experiences of rape and sexual abuse, and severe woundings by this monster, but Maharaji and his organization, Elan Vital, conspired, IMO, to re-abuse the adult victims through intimidation of Abi, in particular, using tactics which have caused me and others to rise in protest and demand financial restitution, as well as, assist the victims in bringing this sex offender of children to justice.

Reading the following report about the Vatican renewed my outrage about the cowardice of religions and cults, Maharaji's in particular, when dealing with pedophiles.

Vatican Issues New Rules on Pedophile Priests

January 08, 2002 08:27 AM

By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican has quietly issued new rules for Roman Catholic churches around the world to deal with pedophile priests,
saying they should stand trial in secret ecclesiastical courts.

Pope John Paul and the Vatican issued two documents on the problem in 2001, but they were not presented at press conferences or made public as is usually the case for such documents.

Instead, they were published in Latin without any fanfare in the latest yearly volume of 'Acta Apostolicae Sedis,' (Acts of the Apostolic
See), the journal of record of the Holy See.

In recent years, the Roman Catholic Church around the world has been rocked by scandals involving pedophile priests, and the Vatican has been grappling with how to control the damage.

In his document, known in Latin as a 'Motu Proprio' and one of the highest forms of papal directives, the Pope authorized the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to issue guidelines on how to deal with the problem.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, head of the Congregation, which deals with matters of faith and morals, sent a letter to all Roman Catholic
bishops and heads of religious orders outlining the Vatican's concerns.

'With this letter, we hope that not only will these serious crimes be avoided, but, above all, that the holiness of the clergy and the
faithful be protected by the necessary sanctions and by the pastoral care offered by the bishops and others responsible,' the letter said.

Ratzinger's letter said that if a local bishop or head of a religious order became aware of 'even a hint' of a case of pedophilia 'he must open an investigation and inform the (Rome) Congregation.'

SECRET CHURCH COURT

A local Church tribunal, made up of priests, should hear the case, which could be referred to the Vatican, but the procedures would be covered by church secrecy.

The letter made no mention of whether a bishop should inform civil authorities if a Church court found a priest guilty.

Last September, a French court handed down a three-month suspended jail term to a Roman Catholic bishop for failing to tell police that a priest in his diocese had admitted having sexually
abused children.

The Congregation, the modern successor of the Inquisition, included acts of pedophilia by priests as one of the 'grave offences' against the Church.

A cover sheet was attached asking the recipients not to divulge the information contained in the letter, Church sources said. The cover sheet was not published in the official record.

Pedophilia scandals, particularly in developed countries, have given the Church a black eye and have cost local dioceses millions of dollars in legal fees and financial settlements.

In a high-profile case in 2000, a U.S. jury found the Catholic diocese of Dallas, Texas, had concealed sexual abuse of boys by a priest and awarded the victims $119.6 million in damages -- the largest award up to then in a sexual abuse case.

The document established a 10-year statute of limitations, beginning on the victim's 18th birthday, in cases of pedophilia.

Priests found guilty of pedophilia can be dismissed from the Church and stripped of their priestly functions.
[ Reuters ]

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 12:18:38 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Passages -- Insulting Cult Revisionist Spin
Message:
Okay, so I will try to let as many ex-premies as possible see the video Passages -- A Master's Journey because I think it's an important document that really must be dissected and analyzed.

This video really does represent, I think, a distillation of the myopic, revisionist bunk that the Maharaji cult wants to put out, in an attempt to explain, really to the current followers more than anyone else, why there are so many ex-premies who have left Maharaji, while at the same time their cult is preaching that this is just about a simple experience of love and peace with no cult or religious strings attached.

It also appears to be a laughable attempt to explain away Maharaji's outrageous insensitivity and lack of caring for his followers in regard to the ashrams, and that extremely embarrassing, and difficult-to-explain fanatically, medieval 'devotional-worship-or-die' period Maharaji instituted after 1977 and continuing at least until 1983, that caused so many premies to damage their lives in so many ways.

And of course, Maharaji would never stoop to take any responsbility to make any explanations himself, and hence people like Ron Geaves and Glen Whittaker are left having to look ridiculous doing it for him.

Marrianne's joke about the saris is not far off the mark. Let's just take the one issue that I mentioned down below, which might be of the most interest to those of us who used to be followers of Maharaji but have rejected him, especially if we left in the 80s, like many of us did.

The video says Maharaji came to the West, and bunch of people from the counter-culture start following him. There is even the trite, obligatory footage of the street sign at the corner of Haight and Ashbury. There are a number of semi-cute stories about Maharaji's 1971 arrival in London (mostly from Ron Geaves) and in Los Angeles (mostly from Joan Apter), with Gurucharanand giving long-winded, semi-mythological stories along the way, as we all know he just loves to do.

So things move along, and there is the blow-up with the family after Maharaji married an airline stewardess at age 16, which is all blamed on Mata Ji, but the way. There is no mention whatsoever about Maharaji's brother, Bal Bahgwan Ji, or the fact that he claims also to be the 'only' Perfect Master.

Okay, so things move along swimmingly until Maharaji encounters this problem. The problem is that there are all these Indian cultural things that are getting in the way of his mission to spread knowledge in the West. The seriousness of this problem is emphasized in the video by shots of Maharaji's backside. Solitary and brooding, he is staring out to sea in one shot, and walking through the shallow waves along a beach in another. This is really heavy and Maharaji had to think long and hard about what to do, it is implied.

So, the example we get of the Indian cultural problem is the saris. Glen Whittaker tells us the story about how the 'sari brigade,' at the ashram interefered with propagation, and the as-yet-unanmed blonde woman says she was freaked that she might have to wear a sari if she followed Maharaji, and, by god, she really didn't want to because she was from Wyoming and Montana.

As we all know, saris were NEVER an issue with premies in the West. That is just total nonsense. Some premies from India visiting the West might have worn saris, and perhaps some Westerners did very, very early like in 1971 did so. I was a premie from 1973 to 1983 and I never, not even once, saw an American premie wearing a sari, nor anyone who ever wanted to. The term 'red herring' is an understatement in this case. So, a viewer is left with the absurd conclusion that Maharaji had to work very hard to get premies to stop wearing saris, and performing other Hindu rituals, and, we find out later, those premies were so attached to Hindu rituals and apparel that they just missed out on the beautiful "gift" Maharaji offers and abandoned him for those entirely frivilous reasons.

To the defense of Glen and the blonde woman, I think this was more the result of editorial decisions, and not really the opinions of either of those speakers. It's just too preposterous to think either Glen or that woman would say anything that stupid on tape that everyone can hear. Joan Apter says that yes, there were all these (unidentified). Indian cultural problems and they were difficult to deal with. She never tells us what they are.

The reason we get this generalized statement and ridiculous comments about saris is that most of the 'Indian cultural' attributes, Arti and Darshan for example, which are by far the most extreme, have never been abandoned by Maharaji at all, and are routinely engaged him by him and his followers, although they don't want to talk about it.

Bobby Hendry says that he thought the ashram was a good place to learn the discipline to practice knowledge, but maybe there was an (again unidentified) Indian cultural element to it. This is, I guess, the explantion for closing the ashrams.

The most blatant, and the most obviously dishonest explanation is given by the guy I thought might be Gary Girard, but I'm not sure. Because his explanation is the most flagrantly wrong, and because it is also the most obviously condescending and 'holier than thow' I hope we identify this person soon, so perhaps we can encourage him to have a discussion with us. He really needs to be held up to the light of day for saying such irresponsible things.

Anyhow, this guy says, that many premies got into the 'Maharaji religion' and when Maharaji got rid of the 'religion' part of it, they weren't really experiencing the true thing that knowledge is, unlike him and the more evolved and dedicated premies, and hence they left Maharaji because he didn't have a religion anymore. It's not only dishonest and wrong, it's also a very insulting and stupid comment. As I said, I know of no premie who left Maharaji because he got rid of 'religious' elements or because he got rid of 'Indian cultural' practices. The statement is absurd.

They do an interesting thing in the video with the blonde woman (there she is again) that I think is editing and not her real opinion. She says that some of her friends 'stopped practicing' when Maharaji closed the ashrams because they 'felt betrayed.' She is cut off by the editors at that point, almost mid-sentence.

The implication they want to give of what she meant, is that these premies felt 'betrayed' because Maharaji closed the ashrams and they wanted the ashrams, as well as all the other Hindu-trips and hence they stopped practicing, because, like the other guy said, they were confused and into the 'Maharaji religion' and not the true experience.

Obviously, to the extent people felt 'betrayed' (and many people did) when Maharaji closed the ashrams, it was NOT because they wanted the ashrams, but they felt betrayed by Maharaji personally because he summarily dumped the ashram premies on the street with no explanation, after he had harrassed and threatened them into staying in the ashrams for years prior, demanding a life-long committment as a way to "serve" him, and by denigrating relationships, marriage, children, education, family and careers.

What those actions by Mahaharji did was make those 'betrayed' premies question whether Maharaji is somebody they would even want as their 'Master' in the first place, because he was obviously so unconcerned with the welfare or experience of his followers and because, based on his actions rather than on what he said, when he had exhorted us to devote and surrender ourselves to him and his 'grace.' They couldn't trust him anymore, and no longer believed he was worthy of being a 'Master.'

It's clear that the guy I thought was Gary Girard really does believe this insulting nonsense, or at least he is willing to say he believes it. The video makes it appear that the blonde woman, Glen Whittaker, Ron Geaves, Joan Apter, Bobby Hendry, Sandy Collier and John Hampton believe it as well, but the way the video was edited, I'm not so sure they would necessarily agree.

I hope more people will comment on this little piece of cult history.

And Ron, Glen, Joan, and the rest of you. What do you have to say for yourselves? How do you feel about how Dunrite Productions/Visions represented your opinions? And to the guy I thought was Gary Girard, shame on you.

Also, shame on Maharaji, because I am absolutely certain that this video would not have been released or shown without his personal approval.

I would like to now go and take a shower.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 16:32:12 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Triangle
Message:
Rawat used to talk a lot about the triangle, the master, the student, the knowledge.

The master is perfect, the knowledge is perfect, so that only leaves the student open to criticism.

And so it is quite natural for a premie to accept an explanation for why exes become exes that is critical of them.

The religious explanation: some premies were not really hip to the experience, they didn't understand the true nature of the master and the knowledge and approached the whole thing from an unenlightened religious attitude, becoming disaffected as Mr Rawat cleaned up extraneous distraction from the pure simple experience of Him and K. (No explanation forthcoming as yet as to why the foot kissing ritual is still in place, other than, well it is okay for us because we are enlightened, and really know who the Lord is!)

This explanation has been accepted quite happily by the majority of premies, as far as I can determine. I have heard it from people who are very involved in participating, and from those who just send their money, no questions asked.

Lotus Eater says: 'Been there, done that, got the badge. Don't tarnish my badge, it is insulting to all of us.'

Personally, I want to remember my past as accurately and faithfully as I can, even though 'the joke' is on us. My past, and the people whom I have shared it with, matter to me.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:27:58 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Cult Revisionism
Message:
Thanks, Joe. You are entirely correct in your refutation of EV's cockeyed version of cult history.

As a whole, premies were not into 'Hindu rituals' at all. If we had been, we would have been Hare Krishna devotees. They're the ones who wear robes and carry beads in a bag and sing to Hindu deity statues. One of the things that attracted many of us to the cult in the first place was, in fact, a general lack of rituals and regulations. To those of us who thought of ourselves as after pure unadulterated mystical experience rather than the comforts of religion, this was a good sign.

So we were reassured by the lack of 'Hinduness.' This was not another Hindu cult (there were plenty of Indian gurus hawking their robes and lineages at the time, remember); this was one-of-a-kind, a Master teaching Knowledge of God, no frills.

So Guru Maharaji's docu-drama appears to be, in part, an amateurish effort to explain all of us. Why, oh why, would the vast majority of those who elected to receive such a precious gift end up discarding it? Either the 'gift' was not only not precious, but even potentially harmful, or their would have to be another explanation...which this video helpfully provides.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 11:55:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: EV's death throttle? M's demise?
Message:
The following information comes to us (via an ex) from a senior US EV person:

As is well-known, EV's fundraising and income stream was severly impacted by the US terrorist attacks, after which numerous major donors lost their high-paying jobs or businesses, and others saw their incomes reduced drastically.

The world 'Winds of Change Tour' done by Aussie honcho - sorry, team member - Greg Nunn late last year was all about winding EV back to near-nothing, and gradually closing it down in some regions.

The move also involves getting rid of senior manager types and flattening the hierarchy, separating Maharaji from the organization,
and 'going back to the simple heart experience' (again).

However this move is also expected to seriously reduce incoming funds. Nevertheless it is seen as unavoidable given the criticisms of M and EV on the Internet, and the reasonably widespread animosity to the organisation within premie ranks.

In its 30-year history, the two-pronged attack on income (the EV wind-down and S11) is unprecedented for the organization and for M
personally.

M's leased $45 million Gulfstream G5 executive jet is the world's leading ultra-long range business jet. It contains the most
sophisticated technology available, a unique engine design and highly advanced communications capabilities, and unprecedented passenger
comfort. It can travel non-stop for 6,500 nautical miles at speeds up to Mach 0.885 - making it the world leader in executive jets.

Given that the G5 has astronomical monthly payments, and Amaroo has a debt of $US10 million, it is easy to see why conversations are being
had among senior premies and PAMs about which assets will have to be sold off. Current thinking is that Amaroo is likely to go before the
Gulfstream, as this would only inconvenience premies - whereas the loss of the Gulfstream would impact on Maharaji's own 24-carat, Royal
Doulton lifestyle.

Amaroo's running costs are just over $US500,000 annually, whereas the Gulfstream's are way over this.

In immediate terms, the largest problem facing Amaroo is the growing withdrawal of loans by wealthy premies - loans which have propped
Amaroo up since its inception. It is feared that the loan-withdrawals will become exponential - i.e. that the early withdrawers will panic
others, who will then withdraw their own funds, and so forth.

The Gulfstream is still in frequent use, so the betting is that it will stay. Amaroo, on the other hand, is almost a ghost town. All that's left are three paid staff, a skeleton crew of volunteers, outside contractors who have had to be brought in to fill the defectors' shoes, and a pile of old paperwork such as a drawer filled
with yellowing confidentiality agreements (mandatorily) signed by premie workers in recent years.

It's interesting to note that the 'Winds of Change' - i.e. wind-down - comes from a growing mood of disgruntlement among premies about the
organization M has set up - though, with impeccable cult logic, only a minority blame M for this. The disgruntlement, in turn, comes
largely from the revelations on www.ex-premie.org - which is becoming increasingly well-patronized by premies. So the effect of EPO has not only been to catalyse people leaving Maharaji. It has also caused a significant withdrawal of funds and labor by those who still call themselves premies.

So far as the official attitude to EPO goes, it is the view of EV PR, and Bonthous and Associates, that the Jagdeo revelations are
significantly the largest PR problem Maharaji and EV face - both outside and inside premiedom. The problem is seen as long-term.

The Jagdeo allegations are now accepted within the senior ranks of the organization as likely to be true. And it is clear to senior organizers and ordinary premies alike that M's role in failing to act, then covering up, is now fairly hard to deny. Officially Jagdeo has 'gone back to his village', though it's unknown if this is true. Jagdeo having now disappeared, instead of being called to account for his apparent misdeeds, is merely the latest evidence of a pattern which has disturbed many premies at all levels for a while now. Some senior organizers have known of the allegations for 20 years, though they have only been more widely known since EPO published them.

M has become sufficiently concerned by the slowly growing hostility to him to order that minders watch his children.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 15:56:52 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Good Riddance.
Message:
Hi Jim,

This confirms what we've had a handle on for a while.

It shows what a paranoid little world they live in, and how inflated with their own importance they are, that they think the children need bodyguards. Although the cult have long been obsessed with security, so I guess it doesn't come as a surprise. In the past though, the security has been to protect the children, their mom and dad from premies, who were always seen as the biggest threat. What are they frightened of? They really are nuts.

We have to thank Abi and Susan their bravery and courage, against all sorts of opposition, for speaking out against Jagdeo's crimes, and standing up against the wrath this stirred up in the cult.

I wonder if Randy Prouty and Judy Osbourne's memories have been jogged yet. And I wonder how they feel about their part in the shoddy, cowardly coverup that has been going on to protect their master and his paedophile pal.

Anth, think I'll pop a bottle of Stella.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:51:04 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: His children threatened???
Message:
What 'growing hostility' toward Maharaji would cause him to have 'minders' (bodyguards?) watch his kids?

I know people are leaving his cult in fairly large numbers, probably larger than we have seen since the 80s, but have actual threats been driected at Maharaji? I would think his feeling would be more one of abandonment, and concern about his luxurious lifestyle, than fear for his, or his family's, safety.

Can the person who wrote the above comment?

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 13:04:26 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why? Where this number comes from?
Message:
Amaroo's running costs are just over $US500,000 annually, whereas the Gulfstream's are way over this.

Can u tell me please?

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 12:40:30 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What a great post
Message:
Hi Jim,

Wow! i knew EPO had impact but WOW! that is something else. Yes, time is on our side. The premies had deaf ears for such a long time because of the inconceivability of M doing wrong. But now the din of the EPO is finally being heard and better, digested. This is really good news. The cult glasses are coming off and the cult earplugs are coming out.

it's a new day! Thanks for the good news.

deborah

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 10:48:02 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: mirror@universalmail.com
To: All
Subject: The Teacher Trap
Message:
The Teacher Trap

Being right is important to most of us humans. We want to be right because we ARE right and the other is wrong! In some cases, as we mature, it becomes a little different. We begin to understand everyone is right from their own perception. Once that understanding comes, we can easily allow the other to have their own view without interference from us.

As understanding comes, we begin sharing with others what we've learned in various areas. Not many of us miss this wonderful opportunity to become a teacher. The problem arises when we begin to think of ourself only as the teacher. We begin to know it all.
We cannot teach another without being the student ourself. It is impossible.
It is also possible to not truly understand this mechanism, therefore not reaping the benefits of our own teaching.

The ego tightens its grip as the self proclaimed teacher explains why they are doing what they do, to prove they are the Sage of the Sages thinking they know it all. They actually think they are doing the world a favor. They do not recognize that this is merely a stage in the game of life, because they began to believe their own Buddhahood to be the only One. They forgot at some point... or maybe never learned... they are always the student too... in every case.

With this stage we feel so divine, so blissful, so right, so comfortable, that it must be who we are. Many students may come. All are welcome. We discuss openly the miracles we've given and received, our profundity, our gifts, our divineness, to attract more students, or to merely impress upon others how wonderful we truly are.

This particular stage can be *catching* to the unaware student that comes to us. We are so caught up in our own magnificence, we bring others with us. They begin to believe as we do they are enlightened but are no more enlightened than their teacher. They are merely caught up in another's processing. The more empathic students feel it the worst, and it can be difficult for them.

If another person can cut through this armor the teacher has built for himself -- if the teacher is truly open-minded -- he will move on to the next stage. If not, he can stay in this stage for years and years. In this *high* wonderful place. It is an out-of-control state. It can be manic, hyper, charismatic to seekers and frustrating to those who have already been there. Frustrating because of the armor we can't break.

If the armor does get broken, we go on to the next stage. Killing our own Buddha, we become human again. Honoring ourselves. This can be a long process because of our own, or another's, brainwashing. It could be devastating, realizing we are not who we thought we were. Accepting our
ordinariness can feel boring and 'just not right' as we get used to not being extraordinary, unlimited, and divine. It is perfectly normal at this stage to go back and forth for a while, until you come to accept yourself as a human, rather than divine.

We begin speaking our truth - not the Divine Truth, but our truth. We begin seeing where our heads are in the clouds in other areas of our life. We begin talking and sharing, as teachers and students alike, as we were meant to, instead of only teaching. We begin honoring others, without persistence, knowing they know who they are. We begin truly talking like a human being, instead of the divine being we thought we were.

We accept what is, as is. We begin to embrace our own perception, regardless of how screwed up it may be, instead of the light divine, and know that within us lies the perfect knowing and that our fellow travelers will help us along. We will know who can help us and who can't. We begin knowing what is right for us. We begin embracing if what we see, hear, or say, doesn't feel right to us, it isn't right for us, and honor others the same right. We begin embracing that which does feel right for us. We begin honoring ourselves and truly honoring others for the first time in our lives. Not for who we want them to be, but for who they are. We begin truly loving ourselves.
With this stage, we begin to understand the true meaning of the heart center.
Where we reside. And with this understanding, the tears will flow.

Some of us get stuck, but there is always hope as long as there is compassion.

Mirror

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:59:54 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Re: The Teacher Trap
Message:
Well said, Mirror. All the time that I was a premie I thought that I had some sort of special knowledge that others did not have and that I was meant to teach it to others. This isolated me from the human race.

Now that I am out of the cult and see that K is not a secret, I am seeing that I was deluded. Most human beings are fine just the way they are and I really don't have anything special to teach them.

And Rev Rawat certainly has nothing of any value to teach anyone at all. The sort of stuff he says can be found on Hallmark cards and he certainly does not practice what he preaches.

No, there is no need for a master and never has been especially one who tells you ''never to doubt the purity of the master'' or to not trust the ''doubtmaker.'' I learned a lot from premies in satsang and that's the only way I want to learn - democratically.

Thanks for you thoughts.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 11:55:38 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: At the feet of the master
Message:
I'd disagree with the phrase, 'for the first time in our lives'. I had a pretty good sense of honouring myself and others when I was a teenager. The eleven years I spent as a premie did not enhance that feeling, especially towards the end of it when Maharaji was yelling at everyone in his obscene way and I denied my own life and feelings and tried to follow his ayga above all other things and other people.

I'd say Maharaji was a very bad teacher. If anything, he stifles people's potential and natural feeling. He prevents people from blossoming.

It's been many years since I listened to anything Maharaji had to say. I am a much better person for it, more loving, more understanding and more human than I ever was as a premie.

I was fine when I came to Maharaji. I just wanted to get this ''Knowledge of God'' that was being given. What came afterwards was an extremely damaging process where I was continually confused and mentally tortured in ever increasing amounts by attempting to follow Maharaji's directions. After eleven years I was exhausted, burnt out, an emotional wreck with no close relationships, no prospects and suffering from chronic fatigue syndrome.

Yes, Maharaji is a very, very bad teacher.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 06:17:13 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Buying into lila
Message:
I was wondering today, just what it was that inticed me to accept all the inconsistencies and illogical requirements of Maharaji and elan vital.

It occurred to me that it was one, basic underlying, fundamental belief. The belief that Maharaji was lord incarnate and this time around he was doing whatever needed to be done to take us across the big ocean of maya. This time around, he wasn't going to be poor but jump right in and live like a king, actually higher than a king, because nothing ever seems to be quite good enough for him if he didn't invent or direct the manufacture of whatever material thing is his current object of desire.

So for me, that's why I kept accepting everything he did, every little speck. No one knew what the lord was going to do in this age of darkness nor how he was going to do it.

We were just so 'fortunate' to have the 'eyes' to see it all, unlike the unfortunate of this world.
Whatever he did was just his play, and because of his exalted lordly position, we were in no position to question it.

I honestly feel that's what keeps pwk's hooked today. They may not all acknowledge his lord rank, but they look upon his actions as absolute. When the crack into that belief system happens, the whole dam starts cracking. So for him to tell pwk's to be very careful these days, is just another ploy into keeping his rank and the premies in file. Guarding the experience of knowledge is one thing, but blindly accepting Maharaji's actions is something that defies any rational intellect. I suppose that's what all the 'listen with your heart' instruction was all about. Only the heart can understand a perfect master......on and on and on.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 08:02:12 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: mirror@universalmail.com
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Buying into lila
Message:
Thank you Vicki, your points ring very true.
It seems all clear and simple once you're out of it, but just like 'getting ready for knowledge' was a process, getting ready to 'un-knowledge' is also a process. All will be 'ready' to see the truth of what has happened to them in their own time.
Mirror
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:46:45 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: ''But we can never understand the Master''
Message:
Before I exited I found out about the yacht from the forum on which I was lurking and told the premies.

The responses ranged all the way from ''But he deserves the best'' to ''He's teaching us that material things are fun'' etc.

In fact come to think of it the modern PWKs are still using all the same old excuses about his greed as we did right from the start 30 years ago.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:58:11 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: All
Subject: Saris and Hindu ritual made you leave M?
Message:
Just tell me how many exes left DLM/EV or Captain Rawat behind because saris were compulsory or because of Hindu ritual?
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 10:25:10 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The premies trying to be something they were not!
Message:
The premies, great people who I thought had something that I did not have. Long skirts were in style. Long hair on the guys. Wonderful music. Interesting conversations and a twist on how to view reality, so tempting in my adolescence. Emphasis on love and life.
Slick initiators, a jet set realized Guru, (didn't everyone need one), extemely loving group of people, however simplistic. But, there was always for me something a little off.
When I finally grew up a little and got my head out of the clouds, and began to see all the hypocrisy. That was the start of the slow drip that, by this time, after becoming embedded in the cult, that allowed me to finally walk away. Mind you, there was always a question. 'What if I walked away from the truth?' What if?
The hypocrisy was blatent to me. Parents not able to afford a doctor or dentist, decent food for their children because of all the funds spent on the 'festivals' that M had. Hell, I'd be tempted too if I could rake in $250,000 or more per event.
Initiators telling outright married premies that 'if they didn't have any children' they should divorce so they could truly practice knowledge.
Lots of divorced people.
Lots of divorced couples with young children.
Premie women idolizing Marolyn, to the point they wanted to be just like her. Flashy, pregnant, and stupid. No matter what situation they were in.
I could go on and on.
Maharaji has and had a real ability in that he's great on exploiting the young.
I had no idea until I came to EPO however the power and damage a cult can inflict on a person. There is no formula as to who will fall prey to it's clutches. Intelligence nor character are not defining factors.
Go figure.

Fondly,
Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:00:00 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Saris and Hindu ritual made you leave M?
Message:
Don't know what a Saris is. Actually can't remember why I left anymore, but I do want to say congragulation for winning your last case, you should feel proud. As for the youknowwhos, they are irrelivent compared to the work that you do,

be good,

Salam the ex-+)

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:22:49 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Not this little Black Duck!!!(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 01:20:23 (EST)
From: Cynthai
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: Oh Yeah, I always wore Saris...
Message:
...in downtown Hartford, Conn. USA, where I worked my ass off in the insurance capital of the world.

Saris? I think not. I can't even remember many hindu words, especially the ones to arti.

Good luck, I guess.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 01:59:15 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Cynthai
Subject: twas a painful sight
Message:
I could only look quizically at the sisters in saris.
perhaps there is no awfuller sight than a very white,clumsy, western woman in a sari who is trying to emulate some sort of adulation.

the worst part is that they just dont have the grace and natural poise that it takes.

but then I wore fetching patchwork skirts and button down blouse with me Lord of the Universe button to entice the Salvation Army suited brothers.

Z
I was bitchin lemme tell you.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 12:57:51 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: How many of you spoke with a Hindu/English accent?
Message:
When I arrived in the m scene that phase was about over, but I do remember some brothers, especially, who would try to speak like the Indian Mahatmas.

It was hilarious!

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 13:14:15 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: We did it as a joke.
Message:
We sometimes made fun of the Mahatamas and their accents. We even made up a mythical Mahatma (Mahatma Offanon), who would give various funny directions.

What's so ludicrous about all this, is that the vast majority of people who are now ex-premies HATED a lot of the ritualistic stuff. I for one, was happy when we got western initiators, and M getting married didn't phase me in the least. I didn't like the rest of the holy family and was happy to remove their pictures from the altars.

It is kind of funny that 12 years after M was supposedly getting rid of 'hindu' rituals, he was dancing around in a Krishna outfit on stage, giving darshan, and engaging in Holi Festivals. What a joke.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:19:09 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: We did it as a joke.
Message:
I thought is was a joke, wasn't sure.

I was also very happy while in the cult when we go western initiators.

Those Indian mahatmas terrified me, and now knowing what I know, that fear was well justified.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 21:39:12 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hi Salaam
Message:
Hello Salaam,
I am wondering if you are here in Oz. You seem to be from what I can gather from your posts.
Could I email you.
X Boudicca.
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:27:17 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: oh hello
Message:
you're lucky mate, I don't read this forum only once a fortnite. So I would have mussed zou. Yeah zou can, only I don't know how much to charge zou? Please e-mail rezume first and wait until zou are contacted by my stuff.
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:35:05 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: oh hello
Message:
Hi Salam, I don't know what I can tell you. I'm still hiding my identity as I'm devolving.
Are you on the east coast?

I like your sharp wit.
I have no bucks ta give you ...Insert cry here.

Just clutching at straws as I go through this process.
Michael Dettmers said twould be good to connect with locals, but I'm surrounded by Active P's and am a bit wary.
Love Boadicea.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:59:35 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: what r ya
Message:
a blind wombat or something? Any why are clutching straws? And how is bugging you. Well ya na what I would say if anyone gets on my nerves, now I've been behaving lately, but there is no harm in telling them to :

STICK IT UP YOUR NOSE YA MORONS.

That should do it. Otherwise ya keep pussy footing like that and ya won't get far, now ya'ere.

No money, hmmm. I do like your style. Am in Sydney. email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au.

No don't ya go tellin everyone what my e-mail is, ok?

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:07:50 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: what r ya
Message:
'K'
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 09:42:45 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: is that it?
Message:
for all the postin I get a measly little 'K'. What is it, a Kellogs ad? B)
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:57:40 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: de native Salam is reckless
Message:
Salam

as your stuff to make nice to zee newcombers
zokay?

Z

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:46:47 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: hello Zeee
Message:
Just trying to be politically correct. Must be happy hour, I havewn't post so much for months, I know now why am crabby, I've been missing all the fun. How boring it is trying to stay away from mis-chief?

So, what da ya no that I don't. That'll be nice, why don't you e-mail me too, ha? Everyone else is +)

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 01:25:09 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Hello Salam...
Message:
Contrary to previous off-forum discussions, I have missed you very much.

You make me laugh, you silly man. Stay awhile, let's see what EVOLVES.:C)

Cynthia,
Love

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:56:35 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: oh cynthia darling
Message:
I know me dear. But don't you worry your little mittens. Strange but, I just don't have anything to say aboutyouknowwho. So I guess that is why I am being argumantative, just for the sake of it. But wait, I thought I was a man of principles, sheesh, maybe not. No way I am, there you go again, am arguing with myself now, look what you've done.
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 19:38:42 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: All
Subject: M's website reproduction restrictions
Message:
See item 47, which has links to the circulars which provide the details. The FAQ itself basically says:

'47. How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?
Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentages of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See Circular 21 and FL 102.'

Since all he has on his website is a few quotes, good luck enforcing that one, Rawat! I suppose he might be referring to his website, but who'd want to copy that !!!

Advice letter FL102 linked to at item 47, above, says that:

'COPYRIGHT
OFFICE
101 Independence
Avenue, S.E.
Washington, D.C.
20559-6000

FAIR USE
One of the rights accorded to the owner of copyright is the right to reproduce or to
authorize others to reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords. This right is subject
to certain limitations found in sections 107 through 118 of the copyright act (title 17, U.S.
Code). One of the more important limitations is the doctrine of “fair use.” Although fair
use was not mentioned in the previous copyright law, the doctrine has developed
through a substantial number of court decisions over the years. This doctrine has been
codified in section 107 of the copyright law.
Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a
particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting,
teaching, scholarship, and research. Section 107 also sets out four factors to be consid-ered
in determining whether or not a particular use is fair:
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of commer-cial
nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted
work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted
work.
The distinction between “fair use” and infringement may be unclear and not easily
defined. There is no specific number of words, lines, or notes that may safely be taken
without permission. Acknowledging the source of the copyrighted material does not
substitute for obtaining permission.
The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright
Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of ex-cerpts
in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short
passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author’s
observations; use in a parody of some of the content of the work parodied; summary of
an address or article, with brief quotations, in a news report; reproduction by a library
of a portion of a work to replace part of a damaged copy; reproduction by a teacher or
student of a small part of a work to illustrate a lesson; reproduction of a work in legis-lative
or judicial proceedings or reports; incidental and fortuitous reproduction, in a
newsreel or broadcast, of a work located in the scene of an event being reported.”
Copyright protects the particular way an author has expressed himself; it does not
extend to any ideas, systems, or factual information conveyed in the work.
The safest course is always to get permission from the copyright owner before using
copyrighted material. The Copyright Office cannot give this permission.
When it is impracticable to obtain permission, use of copyrighted material should be
avoided unless the doctrine of “fair use” would clearly apply to the situation. The Copy-right
Office can neither determine if a certain use may be considered “fair” nor advise
on possible copyright violations. If there is any doubt, it is advisable to consult an attor-ney.
Sincerely yours,
Register of Copyrights

--f
[ US copyright site ]

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 19:57:16 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: M's website reproduction restrictions
Message:
in most circumstances it's 10%. This can be wavered for educational and research purpose. But as you say, who wants to read his crap.
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:53:24 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Yo Salam.
Message:
Hiya bro',

Howya doin' down there. Hope your house isn't on fire.

It seems like the cult has collapsed since you left. Rawat has changed his name, grown a beard and opened a Second Hand Car Mart.

Glen Whittaker has become an Ex, but is scared to post on the forum.

The cult offices in the UK have sold the typwriter and altar, and closed down.

And everyone can have their money back.

Anth the reliable.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:50:34 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: good
Message:
Well am still alive [at least I think I am] and ticking. No fire here but it was very smokey for about 10 day [cough cough, baahhhhh]. I don't keep track of what is going on here and it is news to me what is happening with the ex-lord of the you know what.

Did the typewriters go cheep?

Hey, I think I spent too much time already talking about that man that alleges to know how to put a nail in the timber without bending it. Let me know when he becomes an ex ;)

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 21:49:01 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Yo Salam.
Message:
Hi Anth,
Are you freezing your Proverbials off over there?
It's hotter'n hell here and me with my fair skin.
I have to cover myself in that blue wode and all my beach going friends are confused as they use Pink/White zinc.

Each day is getting a little easier, though my emotions are a bit unstable.

I rang Julie Collette the other day (ex Australian Instructor)
She was very warm. She has little knowledge of what is happening here as she had personally just decided to pull back and resign from being an instructor for her own very admirable reasons.

It did me good to talk with her.

And all of you...

Thank You for being here.

Boudicca, the Heathen who likes to start sentences with And.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:27:22 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Boadicea
Subject: Say hi to Julie from me....
Message:
....next time you call her. Tell her Patrick who was CC in Durban when she stayed there in 77-78 sends best wishes. It was high times. I'm sure she'll remember. I'd love an email from her.
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 16:16:55 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Say hi to Julie from me....
Message:
Hi Pat!
I'm not sure she has a computer.
If I ever do talk with her again i will be sure to pass on above message.
I have her number if you would like it and I'm sure she would love to hear from you.
LotsaluvX
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 17:15:55 (EST)
From: yeah_right_210
Email: yeah_right_210@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: maharaji.net
Message:
What a bloody awful web site! Is this a joke while he finishes what I assume will be his ''real'' web site? It's slow, vapid, boring, and an utter waste of time. I suppose I should be happy about it, as certainly no thinking premie will long put up with such garbage. But, it makes devotees appear even more mindless than they already did, if that is possible. And does he think those irritating and childish little squares are clever? I hope fervently that rawat and his cult collapse in total chaos and disappear, but from a PR standpoint, one has to wonder where are his advisors? Jeez, I've seen better from high school kids.
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:34:53 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: yeah_right_210
Subject: Freudian Slip
Message:
The little squares that follow your mouse on M's web site are actually quite comical. See, it reminds me of a snake, kinda like what Maharaji is.
Anyway, I did read you comment somewhere here in this thread about a loved one still emeshed in the cult. I don't have any good advise nor a magic bullet to give to you that will help free him/her. I was in the same situation in that my husband was a premie long after I realized M was a fraud. It was before EPO and I had no real facts to back up my arguments with him. Does your person, or rather has your loved one read any of EPO? There's always bribery, something to the tune of, no sex until you spend one hour reading EPO. I'm kinda kidding here.
Hang in there, patience, hope you have lots. But don't let Maharaji drive any more of a wedge between you two than necessary. That would be a real shame.
Just my 2 cents.

Take care,
Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:11:21 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: yeah_right_210
Subject: maharaji.net
Message:
can't resist to say that I've seen some few dumb ass web sites in my life, but this one beats them all. I think it just goes to show how bankrupted this person is in his ideas that he has to rely on crap to make himself known. How bloody boring.

Rawat you fucking suck.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:37:51 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: yeah_right_210
Subject: You misread the magnetic squares
Message:
They are symbols of k and gm, always with you at every breath.

And be gentle on him, you know how slow he is to catch up on things, and you know how desperate he is to be seen to be cool, it was bound to be a flash site, the funny thing is, he of all people forgot the mantra, content, content, content and got caught, like a lot of saddoes in the 'magic' of flash, forgetting it only means something as a medium if it reflects and enhances the content.
Still that was one of the two great web lessons of last year, so it's probably asking a bit much of him to have caught up yet.

On current social memes, which he always tries to appropriate, he still has to deal with 'no gurus', it's about living, and your choices, whether right or wrong, skin aliveness. The mind boggles, he'll probably opt for the safe option of knowledge as a way of accelerating your self empowerment, but then he's stuck with leaving himself out more, and we know how loathe he is to do that.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 19:40:02 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Memed out
Message:
Hamzen said 'On current social memes, which he always tries to appropriate, he still has to deal with 'no gurus', it's about living, and your choices, whether right or wrong, skin aliveness. The mind boggles, he'll probably opt for the safe option of knowledge as a way of accelerating your self empowerment, but then he's stuck with leaving himself out more, and we know how loathe he is to do that.'

Yes, Ham, it really seems difficult in the current memetic environment for him to get his real needs met.

I was speculating below about what he might do to keep things going - if he has anything else up his sleeve, like the 1976 devotional olympics.

The mind-boggling thing is that it doesn't seem as though there is any course left to him - especially as he is painted into such a small corner in terms of interacting with other humans. So if there is no course left to him, the trip is dying. Is it going to straggle or actually die? The great thing about an actual 'death' of the whole trip is that it would free up a lot of energy for people who are partially held hostage by it. You know, those people we sometimes talk about who may even have left, but are still carrying a deep virus that says that he is it, Knowledge is it, and they have failed. How liberating if his trip is seen to fail. Perhaps this would be the most healing thing for all those people.

love ktd

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 12:52:23 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: The 1976 devotional olympics! Good one! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:37:34 (EST)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Hola guapa
Message:
Hi Disculta,
Missed you too. Funny every time I read the word meme I am reminded of my nickname I no longer use.
Love you much...hasta prontito y que bueno que pudiste ir a la selva brasileña.
Abrazos,
Mercedes
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 21:38:54 (EST)
From: yeah_right_210
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Memed out
Message:
Living with a person involved with the rawat cult is like living with the shell of the person. You know they are in there somewhere, but you simply cannot get past the barrier. And rawat is directly to blame for the barrier. Now he is adding more and more crap about being careful not to get distracted, etc., in other words, ''keep listening to ME, not those friends and family who though they may say they love you, are not The Master.'' How does one fight this? I am deeply in love with my partner, but so often I have to wonder where my beloved actually is. Not in this real and beautiful world of touch, human contact and true happiness. My beloved is still trapped by the greed-guru, and I am at a loss. Has anyone ever sued the ''Perfect Master'' for alienation of affection? It's about bloody time if you ask me.
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 09:15:34 (EST)
From: WMary
Email: None
To: yeah_right_210
Subject: Re: Memed out
Message:
I am in the same boat as you. I am in love with my partner but she is 'in love' with M. It makes for a difficult romance. Especially with photos of him in his 1000 dollar Armani suit and his Holloween Clown 'Krishna' costume looming above. Note to all premies: marry a premie.
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:55:02 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: yeah_right_210
Subject: Re: Memed out
Message:
I am so sorry to hear this.
I am going through enough by myself and fearful of what my p friends will think/react.
Never mind a lover.
Please hang tight.
We shall all get through this and more.
Love to you.
boudicca XXX
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 13:59:01 (EST)
From: yeah_right_210
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: Re: Memed out
Message:
Thanks, all. I am trying to hang on, but am deathly sick of the three person relationship. Not going to end it, but desperately trying to think of a way to shed some light on the truth about the greed-guru. Any help is most appreciated. Love to all.
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:40:56 (EST)
From: WMary
Email: None
To: yeah_right_210
Subject: Re: Memed out
Message:
A copy of material from the Ex-premie.org site may prove useful. Especially written material from Michael Dettmers, Bob Mishler and others. Of course the Jagdeo info. is always a good one.
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 15:54:52 (EST)
From: Visions Int'l
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Inventory Sale
Message:
Read very Fast with a carnival barker (W.C. Fields nasal twang) voice.

HURRY HURRY HURRY

STEP RIGHT UP FOLKS

IT’S THE AMAZING NEW YEAR’S INVENTORY SALE

THAT’S RIGHT-VISIONS INTERNATIONAL IS OFFERING THE END OF THE YEAR (or possibly just 'the end') DEAL

That’s right videos slashed to the LOW, low price of just $ 5.00, that's 5 US dollars.
Audio CD’s……just $5.00
Audio Tapes only $3.00

LIMITED QUATITIES AVAILABLE. $30 MINIMUM ORDER

New Videos…….$15.00
New Audios…….$ 7 and $9

But all the old stuff must go. We’re slashing our inventory and we’re passing the savings on to you. (Act soon as we may be gone soon like EV).

If you act now you will also receive the possibility of owning a P. Rawat original print.
The Silent Dream art work of P Rawat for only $125.00, Buy 3 today for only $75.00 each (purchase of 3 minimum for discount, that’s 225 for three of these one-of-a-kind pieces of artwork of a beautiful lotus flower {unlike any other} by the Perfect Master himself, I mean, the Master) Own one today. Buy 2 for loved ones, show them you care.
__________________________________
__________________________________

Just got my Visions Catelougue this AM. It immediately smacks of a Carny Barker hawking snakeoil. No fluff, no fancy photos. Just a list of videos from Events around the world. Could not find the “Passages-A Master’s Journey” video. Hope you all receive yours soon. I can’t wait to get a copy of the Master’s flower and some videos of him asking “what is the importance of time?”.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:50:19 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: Visions Int'l
Subject: Re: Inventory Sale
Message:
I received mine too today. It is SO bizarre. It looks like a pre-bankrupcy sale to me. There used to at least be nice graphics, but this was not at all discernable from the rest of the junk mail. I almost missed it. And those prices. Barely above garage sale. I don't think we need to try and inform other premies. They will find out soon enough. The new agya will be 'Where's MahaWaldo.'
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 16:17:09 (EST)
From: Elan Newsletter
Email: None
To: Visions Int'l
Subject: is now closed
Message:
The Elan Newsletter is now closed. No explanation given.
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 16:33:12 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Elan Newsletter
Subject: EV did announce this
Message:
On 29th Dec:-

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

Maharaji has posted on his web-site that a new site from him will be on-line on January 1, 2002

The newsletter was created to complement Maharaji's site and it may or may not be relevant once his new site is on-line. In view of this, publication of the newsletter will be suspended on December 31, 2001. We will reassess the need for continuing publication after viewing
Maharaji's new site, which we look forward to with great anticipation.

Regards to you all.

The newsletter team

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 19:19:22 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: messages on First Class
Message:
Through the grapevine:

Messages since Dec 31st on FC have been ''requesting'' PWKs not to engage with exes on the internet.

There's been a noticeable absence of apologists and trolls on forum since then except for two small ones by a noted Lone Ranger.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:49:58 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: mirror@universalmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: Re: messages on First Class
Message:
I wrote an email to the Dutch Organizer and Dutch PR man announcing my exit officially, requesting them to remove my name from their mailinglists and not to approach me for participation anymore (I had not 'participated' for over a year and a half, but still received invitations). In my explanation I referred to my own journey into independance, as well as the information shared on EPO. It took them 3 days to respond (I guess they had to get it officially approved of first).
The PR's response was very dry: 'we inform you that a similar french website was taken off the internet because of slander. We wish you well and good luck'. Of course the temptation is to start an argument as to whether the accomplishments of expensive American lawyers have anything to do with reflecting the truth? I guess most premies (and I know I was one) suffer from a deep conditioning into believing that M is always right. This fundamental belief is what keeps the premie-wheel turning. Without it, the whole thing collapses. It is very scary to get off, if you've been on the mary-go-round for more than half of your life. So the only way to protect yourself (or better, what it is that you believe is yourself), is to look the other way, and pretend that M is always right. Better not to talk at all to ex-premies then, 'cause they're a dangerous threat to premie-conditioning!! ;-)

Mirror

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:12:08 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Mirror
Subject: Hi Mirror. Thanks for the news.
Message:
You said: ''The PR's response was very dry: 'we inform you that a similar french website was taken off the internet because of slander. We wish you well and good luck'.''

I hope they were not threatening you about your website. I stayed in Holland for a while in 81 and just can't imagine the Dutch premies being fanatical.

Everything that you say is true. Most premies are decent people but they really cannot see that rawat really is just another ordinary human being and find it impossible to see his faults.

Anyway, thanks for the news and I am looking forward to hearing more from you.

Patrick Conlon in San Francisco.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 13:17:34 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Well, at least they wished you good luck...
Message:
The response you got from EV was a lot better one than mine. Yours:

'we inform you that a similar french website was taken off the internet because of slander. We wish you well and good luck'.

I emailed Visions to get off of their mailing list. I just couldn't stand receiving all those stupid catalogs.

Their response to me: ''You are removed.''

Of course, in my email to them I said, ''You should know you're in a cult.'' I couldn't resist.

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:11:06 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: messages on First Class
Message:
You silly man.No such messages. You may not have noticed but it has been particularily boring here lately Pat.
Lone Ranger? Ho Ho Ho!!
It may have escaped you Pat but it is the Holiday season. And in Oz that means get outa town...
Say 'Hi there Boadicea'.... from all of us over here.Suffice to say an American Blonde with the track record described sticks out like a dogs hind leg out at 'the Crossing'
Really it's getting a bit weird.I'm almost tempted to come out of the closet myself
But a weasel must do what a weasel must do.
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 15:46:05 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Derek, what about the Amaroo sale?
Message:
Hi Derek,

You didn't answer my question about the proposed sale of Amaroo this year. I might be interested in putting in a bid myself.

Anth, 'You ain't seen nothing yet. Oh noooo. You ain't seen nothing yet.'

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 15:20:58 (EST)
From: Gail
Email: gcmacdougall@yahoo.ca
To: CW
Subject: Wheezy, why don't you come out and play?
Message:
Hello there down-under. You should come out and play. Are you getting ready to jump ship? Is it true that Amaroo is nearly caputs? Happy New Year!
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 14:20:22 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Pussy, I was not talking about you...
Message:
....but thanks for the response anyway. I meant DR but I have missed you too. ;)

And, it may have been boring for you because none of the four new exes who have started posting in the past few days are PAMs but we enjoy having them here anyway. The joint is jumpin'.

I can't contradict you because I do not have access to the cult's secret first class email system. I'm just reporting what someone who does told me.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 09:25:27 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: That's RICH CatWizard! Boring here?
Message:
So, you've been lurking and find the forum boring lately? Okay, then go for it Cat, Derek or whomever you are. Entertain us. We aren't cerebral enough for you eh?
How about telling us a story, based on honesty, what exactly is your take on all of this. The forum, your experience here, why you like it here and (we wait with baited breath) exactly your take on Maharaji and the cult. Come on step up to the plate.
There are many, many new people here. Fill them in a little.
Try and think out and post a thread or at least a reply that is more than 50 words long. And avoid outing yourself, that you hinted at. That would definately disrupt your presence here. We just wouldn't know what to do if you actully fessed up. How boring that would be!
So, is it you miss Jim? Or Deborah? Or many others who are not presently actively engaged here?
Come on Cat, I dare you.
Tell us a tale based on your honesty, and your thinking and yourself.
Minimum, 150 words. Reach down deep. Be a man!
Bring the forum to a new level.

Sincerely,
Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 02:45:39 (EST)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: What no PWKs?
Message:
Looks like you'll be needing my services again, then. I was just thinking what a beautiful, simple experience is maharaji.net. I feel secure with those loving squares from my master, caressing my mouse cursor.

He really is such a cool and loving dude. And ''Self Knowledge'' wow! Nobody else could have thought of that.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:47:27 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: They know when they're beaten Pat.
Message:
Hi Pat,

They've finally taken our advice, and gone home to stick their thumbs in their ears and listen to god almighty.

You've got to laugh.

Anth the deaf monkey.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:45:19 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Don't talk to exes on the net?
Message:
So that's what they're saying to each other now. Fine with me. The fence sitters will still find us, email people and make posts on the forum. I, for one, will welcome the absence of the vicious, character assasination posts that seemed to greet recent exes, especially those from Australia.

Let's see just how long the usual suspects can restrain themselves.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:49:16 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I hope Derek Harper comes back Marianne
Message:
Hiya,

I hope Derek the wise comes back on the forum. He hasn't answered my question about Amaroo going on the market this year.

Take care and hope to see you soon.

Anth, with his ear to the ground, listening to lots of dogshit.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 09:29:40 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Is that true? Is Maharaji selling another gem?
Message:
I'm not sure if you're joking or not. Is Amaroo going to be sold?
Boy, another slap in the face to all those who bought it for M and made it what it is. What a scam!
Waitng to exhale here.
Tonette
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 15:42:57 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: See Jim's post above. (nt)
Message:
oops
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 20:56:14 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: He's busy selling his percentage
Message:
Derek's busy selling his financial interest in Amaroo to someone further down the premie food chain. It comes with an All Access Pass to the complex, including Captain Rawat's hot tub, cigar closet, and free drinks in perpetuity at Daya's.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 21:57:08 (EST)
From: Boudicca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: He's busy selling his percentage
Message:
Mahatma D is barred from Daya's.
Too much of a good time ya know.
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:07:14 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Boudicca
Subject: Hey there warrior
Message:
You can always email me, if you want, B.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:56:52 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Hey there warrior
Message:
Hello True Warrior of the Race.
How do you do what you do?
I have nothing but the utmost admiration for your chosen profession.

Thank you for your offer, I shall definitely take you up on it.
I am going to write you and Pat C when i grow up, as I have healed so much through your writings.

Still hurting and cowering though not for long i hope.
I attempted to connect with Salam but i guess i may not 'get him' yet.

It's so hot here in Gondwanaland, my aircon is carking it. (Ozzie term meaning 'Not sustaining well under adverse circumstances'
Love B XXX

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:01:19 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Boadicea
Subject: You'll be all right, B
Message:
I got k as a teenager too -- I was 16. You are surrounded by people across the globe who embraced the cult, and fought their way out of the fog too. You'll find your way to the other end of the tunnel.

I saw that John Macgregor sent you his email. There are also many other exes in Aussieland, and many women exes who aren't so high profile, who can be a source of support. If you are able to spend time with any of these people, do it. You will feel healed and understood.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:24:01 (EST)
From: B
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: You'll be all right, B
Message:
Thanx M(nt)
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:39:32 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: B
Subject: Re: You'll be all right, B
Message:
Yes, B, I hope you can find another ex or two near you. I met Marianne a few weeks after first posting here and reconnected with others whom I had not seen in years but had known in the cult 20 years ago.

If you can't publish your email address here for lurking Aussie exes to contact you can always ask Marianne and me for their emails. There's bunches in Oz.

I just asked you in a reply above to say hi to Julie Collett next time you talk to her. I'm sure she'll tell you I am trustworthy. :C)

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 16:16:55 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Visions Int'l
Subject: Passages Still Available
Message:
Passages -- A Master's Journey is still available for $20 on the Visions website as a 'new release.' Here's how it's described:

The year was 1971, a time of great social upheaval in the world... So begins this unique video depicting the remarkable story of a young Master's journey to make his teachings available throughout the world. Through the eyes of 14 people who have been inspired by the teachings of Maharaji, this story unfods in a fascinating and intimate manner.

Yes the story really does 'unfod' in an intimate manner. That about sums it up. Yep.

BTW, the video starts out with shots of the Haight Ashbury from around 1967 and a shot of George Harrison and John Lennon walking through some park or other. It really sums up the whole 60s generation in about three sentences. The entire purpose of the counter-culture was to prepare people to find 'the young master' on his 'journey,' but then we already knew that, didn't we?

Pretentious is a mild word for this video. I guess it's not part of the inventory clearance sale.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 17:50:40 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Passages Still Available
Message:
The entire purpose of the counter - culture was to prepare people to
find `the young master `

How dare they.

What a laugh . what fools we where....

But ofcouse we where , blinded by these crazy indian mahatmas
They where the ones that made us crazy ,, not M

He never wanted us to get tapped in anything unreal....

Here it is :

To be here as individuals
and yet to be able to be next to
the person who is everthing:

in which everthing is, and he is in everything.

Guru Maharaj ji
The lord All powerful.

G.M
11 may 1978
malibu, california

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 19:23:44 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Here it is again and now what?
Message:
This is a great find, Ulf:

Read again this quote from the Speaker, anyone who thinks that anyone but MJ was behind the whole thing:

'To be here as individuals
and yet to be able to be next to
the person who is everthing:

in which everything is, and he is in everything.

Guru Maharaj ji
The lord All powerful.'

G.M
11 may 1978
malibu, california

Well, it really looks as though the whole thing is folding. Apparently someone overheard MJ at the Malibu residence singing bhajans to a statue of himself, except he was wailing:

'leaving the Internet
where would I go....'

In the past, when things were petering out, like in 1976, MJ instituted a manic devotional era that quickly filled the coffers and kept us too busy to think. I believe he has done mini-versions of this since then with secret darshans, etc. But what can he do now? Put more of a squeeze on less people? Can he retire? Will the whole thing just straggle along?

I find myself mildly interested in what unfolds, but VERY interested in supporting and listening to the people who are jumping over the fence as we speak. Welcome to all of you.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 01:53:01 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: Here is what I wrote to two dear friends
Message:
I've sent a packet with printouts of John MacGregor's posts, some of Michael Dettmers, Bob Mishler's radio interview and a few choice favorites from EPO to two dear friends who do not ever surf on the internet.
I would like to share this with the forum. I know I probably left some information out which would of been beneficial in helping these fine people in making a decision but alas, I am just a small soul, with limited time, since I am chasing after two beautiful children.
The cult needs to be exposed and held accoutable, with M taking the first fall. Yes, the dupe needs to end and restitution paid, to the people who gave trust funds, property, free labor and all those who can actually pin their involvement with the cult to their current mental illness, physical illness and especially, the children of premies who I still maintain, paid the highest price.
Here is said letter. I wish I was a better writer but oh well, I'm still a hell of a nurse!

Dear K and S,

Happy New Year! I've thought long and hard about sending you information about Maharaji. On one hand, the experience of knowledge is a peaceful and innocuous one and conversly the attention and affection towards the leader, who claims ownership of the experience, is not what I would call benign. For many, many years premies have been kept in the dark as to the real nature of Maharaji. Well, that's over due to the internet and the voices of those who were close to Maharaji, speaking out about what is really happening behind the scenes in Malibu. I feel it is my ethical and moral responsibility to at least attempt to make you aware of the real nature of the person you admire. In any case, should you be tempted to send funds, you will have an idea of how that money will be used.
Listen, nobody is perfect who walks the Earth, but I wonder if the person Maharaji really is, would be someone you would choose as a friend.
I haven't sent you even 10% of the information but to highlight I'll outline the worst of it:

Sexual abuse of little girls by one of his instructors. Maharaji knew about it for years and yet, did nothing while continuing to support this man and allowing him access to children. We are talking about outright rape, not just touching.

Using many female devotees for sex and then breaking off any communication with them, with nary an explanation. That behavior messed up more than one blond's head.

He hit and killed a cyclist with his car and arranged for a devotee in his mororcade to stay behind and take the rap.

He's an alcoholic.

I want you, K and S, to be well aware of the type of person you are empowering and with this information you can at least protect yourselves should Maharaji and the cult ever go off the deep end.
If you want more information the web site is:
www.ex-premie.org

Take care, take a look and Godspeed

Love, Tonette

Besides my awful typing, what do you all think?

Greetings to the forum.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:28:04 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Here is what I wrote to two dear friends
Message:
When I read your letter I had to applaud. The only thing I would add is that M. puts out driftnets to collect codependants.
The codependant role is traded for 'free knowledge' and enables him to live the high life.

I think premies are getting nervous with the 'gratitude' angle for a supposedly freeing spirtual experience. Most people nowadays are familiar with codependance means.
Either it is Hindu or it aint. M cant have it both ways.

good luck with your friends.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:07:30 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Thank you and you make a great point!
Message:
Premies as a rule are not stupid, it must be hard for them to continually push the doubts and obvious contradictions forever back into the closet.

Thanks for the reply,
Tonette

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:38:48 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Re: Here is what I wrote to two dear friends
Message:
EGGZACKERY!!!
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:07:20 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Here is what I wrote to two dear friends
Message:
Thank you for taking the time to do this Tonette. This is exactly what wish to eventually compile for my nearest and dearest still ensnared. I am not strong enough yet.
I have read all your posts with resonance, laughter and thanks.
Kudos
X Boudicca
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:53:56 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: Glad to help.
Message:
It may take awhile before you feel comfortable doing anything like this. Look how long I took. I've known about EPO for over two years, I think. And had exited many years earlier, like about 15!

I'll let you know what happens with it. What I did may be a mistake!

And I know from my own experience, and it concerns my husband, he was a premie for far longer than I was. Somehow we made it thru intact as a family and a couple and as friends with each other but there were many, many times I had to eat the words that wanted to spring forth! Oh yes, that is, if I wanted peace. I could tolerate this disharmony with my husband, while he was a premie, mainly because he was never an industrial strength premie and he would reassure me that he would never leave me to go live the promised life in Amaroo, even if M requested it. Oh I worried about that from time to time. I felt fierce, like a mother protecting her cubs because my husband, although a premie, was my husband first and the father of his children second and then a premie. Right? Isn't that right? Right honey? Geez, I'm glad that's over!
And you know what? The factor that exited this person I care more about than anyone (besides the children, of course), was EPO and all the information contained on that web site. Not my rantings or good intentions, that's for sure.

Oh good luck to you. Be kind and gentle with yourself. And whatever you do, keep laughing and looking up and ahead. And if you still have pain or fear or grief in the not too distant future don't be afraid to get professional help. I'm not saying you need it, please, please, don't think that's what I think of you, I just wanted to throw that out there.
Cults can really take it out of you, that's for sure. The forum is beneficial but nothing beats a real live person.

Fondly,
Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 14:42:14 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I'm making a copy to send to friends
Message:
Or at least I'll use it as inspiration to write a similar letter to my premie friends. Excellent, Tonette.
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 04:04:30 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Thanks Pat. It felt good to write to them
Message:
What a lost art letter writng is becoming bty.

I'm glad you liked it. I hope everything turns out okay with the little package and all. The truth is not always kind.
Exposing Maharaji like that to someone who is so admiring of him can be akind to a doctor telling you have terminal cancer or something. One never knows what the reaction will be. Although my friends are not super industrial strength church members, me thinks.

Take care
Fondly,
Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:24:05 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: My Comments...
Message:
Hi Tonette,

Although I think your intentions are good, I wouldn't have written that letter. I'll tell you why.

I have one sister who received k but doesn't 'keep in touch.' We've discussed EPO and the forum, but she told me she isn't personally ready to deal with facing the whole thing, and doesn't want to read EPO or start the painful process of exiting yet. I have to respect her wishes as her sister and friend. Once in a while I give her a gentle nudge. But, knowing her so well, I know when to back off.

I don't think that I have the right to force anyone to look at what we as exes have already accepted about maharaji as fraud, fake, etc.

Yet, I don't know your premie friends, so only you know if it is appropriate. I know, Tonette, you want to ''bring maharaji down'' and have him pay restitution to certain exes. So do I, but I cannot be focused completely on that. I used to feel very much the same way and that frustrated me because I have no power over maharaji except what I can write here.

I think that EPO, and especially this group of Forum writers have accomplished quite a lot in the area of exposing and weakening the cult. Yet, I have found that if I dwell on wanting something I clearly cannot control, i.e., making demands on m, I only nurture the anger inside of me, which ultimately makes me very unhappy.

I love your posts, Tonette. But I have to be honest. I think perhaps a follow-up letter to these friends might help soften the blow.

Cult indoctrination is a difficult thing to kick.

Think about it...
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:20:36 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Addendum to My Comments...
Message:
Tonette,

I hope I didn't make you feel bad about your letter. As it stands, it is a good letter. I don't have any contact with premies up here in VT, as I never got involved with any personally--never made premie friends up here. The ones that I knew from Connecticut have been out of my life for many years.

Bill, who is a long-time regular poster here has been a good friend from my 70s premie days, despite the distance of years. But, I don't know any pwks except my sister. Bill and I do have some mutual friends who are still in the cult. And I do understand your anger.

I re-read my post to you and it sounded so harsh. For that I apologize. I just worry too much I guess.

I do like you a lot, and hope you took my comments as constructive criticism rather than a lecture. I can be off-putting sometimes and I wanted to tell you that...

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:00:10 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: You weren't harsh at all.
Message:
Dear Cynthia,
I appreciated your insight as always.
I can certainly say that I didn't feel like a very gentle or sensitive soul when I wrote to my friends. In fact, a real aspect of what I did can be seen as cruel. Who am I to critize their religion? Knowledge obviously does give them some joy. Why am I rocking their boat? Distrubing their peace, making trouble. Hell, after they read my letter, I'm somewhat expecting them to never want to see or talk to me again. Yes, I did spin the roulette wheel with this little stunt of mine.
My husband agrees with you. He thinks I should let them be.

As for you, I think you are one of the gentlest people here. It is always a worry somewhat for me still, as you mentioned, people taking what you say to them the wrong way. Alas, the great defect of non-verbal communication. But I certainly did not take what you wrote to me negatively. I appreciate your honestly, and everyone else who responded to my question.

I certainly will not hound my friends. I don't even intend to call, at least not for awhile anyway.

It's hard to know the right thing to do. But I thought it especially important that they have some information at this time since the cult seems to be unstable these days. I certainly would not want anything to happen to their hard earned assets. I can conjure up several scenarios that Maharaji might try and pull off to save his assets and ego. Requests of his followers that could be quite damaging. Whether it be financial, physical or emotional. Who knows what that man is capable of. I hope for everyone's sake M does dry up and blow away, slink into retirement.

Anyway, take care.
I need to read and reply where needed, to other's post. Forum etiquette you know. Start a thread, better at least read the reply's.

Fondly,
Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 07:55:59 (EST)
From: Hey Tonette
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I need some SCRUBS
Message:
Let me know if you get any response from K & S re: your 'hate' packet. Knowing them, I'd bet you'll hear nothing.
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:09:41 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Hey Tonette
Subject: Wow John! Surprise, surprise!!
Message:
I've never seen you post here before.

What size do you want anyway? I'd be happy to have the facility make a donation.

BTY, I did talk to K and S not that long ago. I was worried a bit and wanted to get the inside scoop with the Anthrax going thru the postal system. See if he was affected, ect. I told them I was going to send information and they said okay. We'll see what they make of it, if anything.

K did mention that he's called you and you never called him back. You should someday.
Hell, we never have any fun! Maybe this would be the time to have a get together. K likes poker, you like poker, I like poker. We all like to eat and I promise I won't get too drunk. What do you say, you recluse. You're worse than I am. Gale would enjoy it too. Besides, you won't believe the kids, how they have changed. Brian's been weight lifting at school and Amelia is almost as tall as I am!

Come on over!

Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:18:30 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Hey Tonette
Subject: Go Scrub yourself
Message:
Tonette: Your letter is just fine. I suspect it took a lot of courage to write your friends and share this information about Captain Rawat. It was a caring thing to do, but we all know that when people are still feeling devotion, they may not understand your communication in that way.

Your letter was not a hate packet. Ignore the troll. It always amazes me when the premies -- loving souls they're supposed to be -- show up here and spew nastiness at people, especially anonymously. That's hate.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:09:13 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: AHHahhhhaaahhhh! Good one Marianne!
Message:
Hey, I've never seen John post here. I want to thank you for coming to my rescue, even if it was unnecessary. Thanks!
John, I've known for 26 years! And he is always cynical to a degree but never boring!

Nice to know I have a lawyer watching out for me. And not just any lawyer, a gal who has the most finely tuned thinking abilities I've ever seem and ability with words that is not second to Jim's.

Take care
Love,
Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 13:36:28 (EST)
From: John G
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: No, Marianne...a misunderstanding
Message:
Hi Marianne,

This is John in D.C. area. We talked some a couple of years ago. I thought it was clear when I put the HATE in quotes but I guess not.

Tonette and I are old friends and we still will be if she will just rip off some scrubs for me.

Hope you are well,

John

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 13:59:34 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: John G
Subject: Oops. sorry
Message:
Yep, I remember you and your nom de plume. And sorry about my angry comment.

How's things with you?

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 05:57:01 (EST)
From: wolfi
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: you dropped a bomb
Message:
Hi Tonnette,

it is a terrible letter because there is nothing personal said. I think your approach is completly unsensitiv. To take the rihgt to act in the name of moral and ethical responsibility normaly does not end good.

too much moral kills ............ciao wolfie

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:21:35 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: wolfi
Subject: okay then. Thanks for the input. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 06:35:07 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: pmaccanner@hotmail.com
To: wolfi
Subject: Tonnette
Message:
I have been doing a similar thing ... not sending a letter but compiling excerpts from epo to have to show people if they want to see it. I had included personal information about how I felt. My husband thought I should leave it out as it would help people to dismiss it as something I'm 'into'.

I thought your letter was good but when I read wolfie's response I sort of agreed that to good friends something about you would have softened it.

Personally I have not had one person so far respond to my telling them of my 'enlightenment' with any enthusiasm, though I have got some 'I was always a bit unsure' As far as I know no-one has looked at epo yet ( I have told only 8 premies ) I also am filled with quite a strong feeling to 'put things right'. I don't totally trust it having once been a very full on soap box, 'Divine Times' on the doorstep type of premie.

Do you speak French? Please email me if you do.
,

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:32:29 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: My mother refused to teach me French
Message:
She said I had enough problems with English! And, she felt that if she encouraged a Canadian French home in any way, she would not be accepted into American culture. It's one of the regrets of my life but oh well. That's the way it goes.

The letter was a bit soap box like wasn't it?

Thanks for you input, I do appreciate it.

Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 05:35:28 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Is maharaji an alcoholic?
Message:
Although there are many reliable accounts of Maharaji's heavy drinking, I don't think we know he is an alcoholic. I would personally therefore say that he is a heavy drinker, and possibly an alcoholic. Otherwise, a very well written letter - don't put your writing skills down!

John.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 03:24:23 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Good point, he may very well not be an alcoholic.
Message:
Gotta be careful the facts are 100% accurate when slandering someone.

Giggle,
Tonette

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 22:29:32 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic?
Message:
I washed out an empty bottle of La Postolle Champage Cognac this morning (m's empties) to finally dispose of.
I was going to throw it away and then i thought of a friend of mine who would consider this a Divine Relic.
My dilemma..to pass it on as a thing of value..to said person.
Or Trash It!~
Obvious choice to you maybe, but i am still deprogramming.
Stuff like this was sacred!
Well I smuggled it out of the Executive Area myself didn't I?

All I know is that I bought a Shitload of alcohol for each event (his area) and even I was amazed at the anaesthetisation going on.

Alcoholism is understandable and forgivable.

Pronouncing to me that you are the Lord of My Universe and all the attendant psychosis that goes along with it is NOT!
Love Boudicca who is girding her loins yet again for a Rampage!

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:58:46 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: No, Don't Throw It Away...
Message:
Dear Boadecia,

...or it you want to, of course, do so. Hell, do whatever you want! Who am I to give advice? I just think that relics of the cult are evidence, if not reminders of what and why we left.

When I was at Deca (did I know you?) I took care of a lot of m's personal areas, his office, his bathroom, work areas, and being the died in the wool premie trying to surrender, I would keep his soaps, links of paper clips which he compulsively would link together during meetings, and other various relics. At the time, 1979-80, I would send these relics to premie friends in the Hartford, CT, USA community. They ate them up, got blissed out.

I still have 3, yes, three hairs from his head, and fingerprints from a small square of plexiglass on which he imprinted his thumb with goldleaf to see how it would look on his ebony-lamenated cabinets for the 707 that he didn't keep. I keep these things to remind me that I was once in love with someone who betrayed me. I also keep them as evidence to myself that I once followed a fraud unconditionally. It's heartbreaking, really, to think about the amount of myself I gave to him.

It's much like having a lover from a movie, except when you get a little bit closer, see him, talk to him, and prepare things for him, it becomes REAL PERSONAL.

I keep this sort of stuff in a box well buried in a closet. I would never give them to a true believer in the god-in-a-bod premie, but I like to look at these things on occasion, especially since they are from 20+ years ago, and I wonder at my own personal progress at leaving the one person I completely, ever in my life, gave my soul to. Or made an honest attempt. Unfortunately, unrequited love is a waste of life. You must be on an emotional roller coaster right now. My thoughts are with you.

Now I know that I can only give my real love to the real people in my life, I have found peace.

If you ever want to talk, you are welcome to email me at sylviecyn@yahoo.com. Feel free. Shit, you are free. You are free! BUT...

It's a hard row to hoe.

Much love and be good to yourself, rant and rave, cry, laugh, but most of all, comfort yourself...
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 01:21:05 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hi Cynthia
Message:
I'm sure we would regognize each other if we met.

I do not know you from your name but as I was involved in res activities around that time i'm sure we crossed paths.

I have read all your posts with great relish as I need to hear that pam input right now.
Did you know Gypsy Rodgers, Ron Prezewlocki Patty lancaster, Merino Amico, Lemon, Michael, Sally Burgoon, Doc & Debbie Dougherty (nee Przewlocki)Geoffrey Pease, Jon Lichtman, Sandy Stewart etc too many to forget?

I was in a strange country following my Lord, I have dear memories of nearly all the premies i met.

Thank you for your kind words.
I have read all your posts and take courage in them.
Love Boudicca XXX

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 12:46:17 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: Re: Hi Boudicca
Message:
I'm much better with faces than with names. While I was at Deca I came in contact with and knew some of the people you listed. Lemon was one person who I got to know pretty well. I never spent any time at the residence, and don't consider myself a bona fide former PAM, but I knew Marino, and some of m's security guys because I had to have regular access to m, and they needed to know who I was.

You wouldn't recognize my name because I used to go by Cindy, and my maiden name was Folcik. I spent most of my time while at the big complex, in the design area, where Swan, Nicola ? worked, along with Guy Rollins, and the rest of the design staff. M came there a lot with Jim Hession. I also knew the Browns quite well. They were very sweet folks.

Take care of yourself,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:54:14 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic?
Message:
Bodecia, did you have the job of getting alcohol for Maharaji when he is at an 'event?' Is it always cognac? Have you seen him drink? Have you seen him drunk?

Does it seem that premies mimic his behavior? For example, I have heard that Derek Harper has a drinking problem, and I heard from someone else what you said, that he was barred for life from Dayas because of his drunken behavior. Who banned him?

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 00:21:27 (EST)
From: Boadicea
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic?
Message:
Yes, I purchased part of what was consumed by m and his family.
No it is not always Cognac, though always the best is required.
No I have not seen him put 'Glass to lips' though I stocked his fridges and removed the empties.
No, I have never seen him 'Drunk' although I have seen him in an environment where all the premies were inebriated and his tolerance may have allowed him to 'Keep up appearances' I have my secrets about all of this but they have been related to me in confidence and as purile as that may sound to you, I still have a problem with divulging all at this time and so I wont until I am ready.

Yes, I definitely felt there was a release around him to act as he acted regarding partying.
Definitely including myself, by the way.

Derek is someone I used/still admire as he was a wild child and was not a church lady.
I thought that this was more realistic and allowed for people to just be themselves and still was accepted by m, worldly flaws and all.

He was barred by people who would accept his behaviour in m's presence but privatly looked down on him from a devotees point of view.

Hipocracy.

D is good fun.
An intelligent man.
Uncontrollable when inebriated, god help you miriamxxxx
We we are all either a bomb for peace or destruction depending on which way we are aligned.

I have no beef with any person here, premie or un.
I wish the best for us all.

Love Boudicca the heartbroken.********************XX

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 23:48:06 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Boadicea
Subject: Throw the bottle in the trash
Message:
Or better yet, recycle it if they do that kind of thing where you are. Doing things like that really set you free. One step at a time.
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 08:19:31 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: Dylan Thomas's definition..
Message:
According to the Welsh wizard, an alcoholic is 'somebody you don't like who drinks as much as you do...'

Actually, from Michael Dettmers' account, I wouldn't regard Margie's brandy-quaffing as alcoholism (wasn't it about three or so shots per evening?) I get the impression that popular opinion in the States sets a lower baseline for alcoholism than we do in Europe. I don't remember anyone ever calling Sir Winston Churchill a drunk, although he apparently polished off a daily bottle of brandy (plus wine / champagne etc.)

But there again, why should a person who once claimed to be in permanent state of God-consciousness need to drink anything at all? Boundless, infinite bliss can't be as good as it was onced cracked up to be, I reckon.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 13:06:04 (EST)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: dylan thomas the gifted alcoholic
Message:
i am a great fan of dylan thomas' writing, but he was a famous alcoholic who died of drinking excess at age 39. of course he would have made such a remark, clever but somewhat defensive.

i would hesitate to call m. an alcoholic, since i have never met him, but the evidence seems pretty hefty.

magnolia, who appreciates a good kentucky bourbon in the evenings

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 14:48:59 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: Long time no see, magnolia
Message:
Happy new year, blossom, and may you have many more.
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 17:22:22 (EST)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: new year, same old damn guru!
Message:
happy new year to you too, pat!

i may not write often, but i can lurk with the best of 'em. whenever my pwk tries to quote m. for my edification, i rely on all of y'all to give me hope (and anecdotal ammo in case we argue later!).

still four photos of maharaji by the bed, one from every decade, i guess, one on his fridge, an old 'connections' photo framed with my pwk standing right behind m. along with a crowd of premies, one of m. in the spare bedroom holding a baby, videos on top of the tv, some swan stuff on the wall... sigh...divine times in the closet... a book of m.'s poetry that should be entered into a 'bad poetry' contest...

deprogramming is tough business, i tell you.

magnolia

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 17:49:01 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: It's worth the wait, Blossom
Message:
Your man is not a cult official or really into much except adoring rawat's photos and videos so there's plenty of hope that he'll drop it when he eventually sees who the real rawat behind the public persona is and then he'll transfer all that adoration to you.

What's the bet? My relationships are just getting better all the time now that I don't have rawat sleeping in bed between me and my loved ones. Think positive.

Pat:C) the eternal optimist.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 17:36:29 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: Divine Times in the closet?
Message:
Didn't he listen to Maharaji's agya about handing in all the old publications where he said we should all worship him? Grab them quick before the EV police turn up on the doorstep!

Good luck with the deprogramming although to be honest Maharaji himself is doing a pretty good job.

John.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 13:23:38 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: M's alcoholism
Message:
I don't think M's alcoholism is a big deal, although I think his followers, and his ex-followers have a right to know about it.

When I left the cult, I knew nothing about M's personal life, except that he was filthy rich and seemed to be quite greedy when it came to material things. It wasn't until later that I heard about the drinking and sexual daliances. So, that wasn't significant for me.'

However, if I knew he drank, was addicted to cigarettes, etc., it might have caused me to re-examine my whole relationship to him, and I doubt I would have stayed in the ashram if I knew M was smoking dope every night and listening to Peter Frampton, while ordering us to live as chai-drinkers in the ashrams. Seems like rank hypocrisy to me, especially when he went to such extraordinary lengths to hide those facts from us.

So, I would have liked to have known that, as I think I would have moved out of the ashram and got a life a lot sooner than I did.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 11:32:20 (EST)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Dylan Thomas's definition..
Message:
what make m's drinking alcholism (or very close) is not the quantity but the absolute regularity and how his life...how he sets his life up around it. everything he sets up around it...his flying, his speaking, where he is during the day to get back in time for his usual, etc. these are more the signs that stand out.
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 08:26:05 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: michael donner
Subject: More please...
Message:
That's interesting, Mike. Have I missed something? - I don't remember hearing about M organising his schedules purely to facilitate his drinking. Can you tell us more?

And I would agree that certainly looks, at the very least, to be sympomatic of a pretty dysfunctional drinking habit - and something that premies should know about before listening to the hamster's pseudo-philosophical ramblings on the subjects of inner happiness and understanding.

(And to Magnolia: Dylan Thomas's comment, I am sure, was a joke. His own phenomenal alcohol intake was such that I doubt even he could have been in denial about it. I have often wondered whether he would/could have written such amazing poetry without the drink. Somehow I doubt it - and in a way the mere fact that he accomplished so much in just 39 years, for the rest of us, goes a way to compensating for the short life, I think. (Actually, from reading Caitlin Thomas's book of their lives together and heavy drinking bashes, it looks like DT's death was unnecessary and arose through medical negligence on the night in question - but I guess she could be in denial, too?)

Nige the abstemious...;)

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:14:10 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Absolutely right.....
Message:
Speaking as somebody who has had alcoholism in my own family, I agree completely. The definition of an alcoholic is somebody who has a problem with alcohol, and like Donner said, that's because the alcoholic sets his or her life up so that alcohol is always present. Also, they are unable to stop. The other big clue is denial, and, of course, co-dependents.

If someone asked an alcoholic to stop drinking orange juice, he or she could do it. Not so with alcohol.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 11:06:10 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: too much dope and champane
Message:
Hi,

in times I was drunk or stoned I enjoyed Knowledge the most, because than it was much more real. I'm only pissed because he did't not tell me this.

wolfie
[ Page Link ]

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 11:03:47 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject:
Message:
Hi,

in times I was drunk or stoned I enjoyed Knowledge the most, because than it was much more real. I'm only pissed because he did't not tell me this.

wolfie
[ Page Link ]

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 07:56:02 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic?
Message:
he did say on his website 'someday I will be sober'
The way I see the guys around me, those that drink daily are alcoholics. According to Dettmers, rawat qualifies as he drank daily since an early teen.
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:08:56 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic?
Message:
Hi Bill,

Happy New Year...

Alcoholism is not so difficult to diagnose. People don't even have to drink daily to be considered alcoholics. It is the manner in which certain people use, abuse, and/or depend upon it that constitutes being in that category.

As Donner said above, when maharaji, or anyone, patterns their life around alcohol, and that includes all alcoholic beverages including beer and wine, there's a big red flag. Also, reports of his consumption of cognac indicate he is an alcoholic--cognac is a particularly strong drug. Obviously, he's in deep denial about his whole life and I wouldn't expect him to admit this.

If people drink alone, depend upon it to numb feelings, anxiety, avoid responsibility, become able to socialize when otherwise they would be unable to (for whatever reasons), and especially when someone drinks to oblivion on a regular basis, they are an alcoholic. If someone has black-outs from drinking, they are an alcoholic.

It isn't fair to speculate from afar about maharaji, but, based on eye witness reports, he appears to be an alcoholic. What has really got me perplexed is the free use of alcohol at events or programs, such as at Amaroo. It seems like an oxymoronic thing--be a ''master of perfect knowlege'' and invite folks over to Daya's Place to slug a few down--and with his kids!

Also, reports about maharaji's kids' drinking habits would indicate that they have inherited the disease. And it is a disease, not curable, but manageable, if the alcoholic is willing.

My $.01
Love,
Cynthia

P.S. Email me sometime, Bill...

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:37:14 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Is maharaji an alcoholic?
Message:
Hi,

did't we all sung fasting charity etc. never brings you knowledge of the soul. We here often have said Maharaji is a Freak and that was what we liked about him. But the problem was we took the tricks and everything for real. For myself I see no reason in complaining, whether he is a alcoholic or that he masturbated too much. For myself I can say, I'm completly bored to talk so serious about someone who is just a gambler and to scrach my head off to analize his behaviour.

maybe I change my mind tommorrow.................wolfie

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:15:54 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks Cynthia
Message:
You said it much better than I did.
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:39:03 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It only takes one drink a year
Message:
That's what a therapist told me when inquiring about a family member.
If that person spends their entire year focusing on the time when they get that drink, they are an alcoholic. Based on Donner's observations, it would seem to qualify. Any PAM's know if this is still his modus of operation?
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Date: Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 23:23:39 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Ron Geaves
Message:
Okay, so I just went to the Enjoyinglife website and did a search for Ron Geaves, and was directed to his 'Life' from September, 1998. It includes a picture of the man and he is indeed the same person as in the video Passages -- A Master's Journey

Most of what Ron says I have no beef with because it's his opinion and he's entitled to it. But I do think he is dishonest in a couple of places. First, in his 'Life' on ELK, he says the following:

He [Maharaji] is consistent on this point. In 1971 on his first visit to England he spoke in Westminster Central Hall. He said: 'If this Knowledge gives you peace, well and good, go ahead. If not, leave it and try to find another way.'

In June of this year, he spoke in Wembley where he stated: 'If you like Knowledge, fine. If you don't like it, fine. Walk.'

Just as he did with me nearly 30 years ago, he explains simply and directly the obvious truths of our human existence and offers Knowledge as a possibility. If people respond to that message, he ensures that the techniques of Knowledge are available, if not, he sincerely requests them to enjoy their lives.

I wish Dr. Geaves would come here and explain why the above statement is not dishonest by sin of omission. Maharaji may have said those things, but even so he was far from consistent.

How can Ron lead people to believe that Maharaji never issued threats about what would happen to someone if they stopped practicing knowledge? For example, does Ron forget about the rotting vegetables, hell, smashing into 1000s of pieces, or the sea infested with sharks, just to mention a few, all of which Maharaji said and is quoted on the EPO website, and I heard with my own ears?

Second, in the Passages video, Mr.Geaves talks about Maharaji coming to London in 1971 when he was 13. We have all heard the story that the premies got a big, palatial house for him, but they only had it for a week or something and then Maharaji had to come live in the ashram with the premies. Apparently, Ron apologized to Maharaji and M said it was okay and that he would stay there.

Ron then launches into a very misleading monologue about the 'accusations' that Maharaji wants to live 'the high life.' Ron says that when he hears those 'accusations' he thinks about that time and how Maharaji was willing to live at the ashram (as if he had any other choice).

Again, this could be construed as dishonesty by sin of omission. Just a few years later, Maharaji was demanding the most luxurious of everything, and to the extent possible, the premies got it for him. [See the Mishler interview.] He certainly learned to want the "high life" shortly after coming to the West, that's for sure. Ron doesn't mention the $7 million yacht, the residences around the world, the fleets of luxury cars, etc., that would seem to overwhelm Ron's defensive memory.

This would appear to be not only dishonesty by the sin of omission, it is defense by ridiculous anecdote.

As we will all see, explanation or defense by absurd anecdote is what that Passages video is full of. But will Ron come here and talk about this?

I also wonder how many premies who saw that video saw right through the spin. I understand it was shown at some "events."

I know a number of British ex-premies know and like Ron and he does seem like a nice guy. What would get him to write a 'Life' on ELK that is so misleading, and was that statement on the video what he really meant? Maybe both were editing and censorship outside his control? Maybe he could explain?

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:04:34 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Earth calling Ron.
Message:
Hi Joe,

Ron was always a nice guy, but like all premies, he has a cockateel standing on his head that he denies is there. He believes Captain Rawat is the Living Perfect Master- Creator in human form, etc. Therefore the Captain cannot be judged by the earthly standards applied to the rest of us imperfect scumbags.

The normal rules, logic and moral standards don't apply when it comes to Rawat. No matter if what he writes is contradictory, dishonest, etc. It doesn't matter, because there's a higher game being played.

And of course, the Perfect Master is under attack from all us monmats, deluded and confused. So it's all hands to the pump.

I have no doubt that if Rawat asked Ron to describe his journey to Earth from the Planet Zog on a flying saucer to do pranam to the Creator, he'd begin something like, 'There I was, watching TV on the Planet Zog, when the phone rang...'

We're not going to get any sense from cultheads when they're serving their Master. They'll say and do anything, because of course, the Living Lord is beyond our petty, imperfect moral judgements. And anyway, who are we to judge the Creator Joe?

People like Ron are like folk who have been cut off by the incoming tide. The beach is getting smaller and they're starting to get their feet wet.

I hope he sees sense soon, but some of the old premies who went out to India in 1970, are stuck so far back in their Hippy-Hindu past, I fear they may not make it into the brave new world of standing on your own feet in life, instead of kissing those of a bizarre, Michael Jackson type guru.

Anth, Earth calling Ron, come home, all is forgiven.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:12:09 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: At this point, it may be impossible
Message:
Never say impossible, but Ron is on tape, saying his life has been absolutely perfect because of M and he wouldn't change a thing. Plus, he seems to believe Maharaji is not only powerful, but consistent and loving in every way possible. Then, Ron got up in front of thousands in Miami recently and professed his love and gratitude to Maharaji, in person,

There would seem to be a lot of reasons there, to not want to scratch below the surface and walk away, no matter how small his beach has become. To Ron, it must remain an infinitely large beach, no matter what, and I think he keeps convincing himself of that.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:36:42 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: letting go of idealised love
Message:
Letting go of an ideal love seems at first a bit like swapping something perfect for its flawed alternative

And nothing on earth would tempt you to do it.. until you lose the idealised love.. and then the flawed f**ked up and human alternative starts to look more and more attractive.

The lure of maharaji is to offer 'no compromise' is the realm of feelings.... and yet it is precisely a series of sweet but seemingly painful compromises we need to turn the idolatory pop star worship of the adolescent into the mature and compassionate love of another human being.. wonky teeth and bad hair and all.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 02:32:11 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That's confronting allright.......
Message:
Poor Ron, unable even now, to look honestly at all that has happened with Maharaji and the dupe Ron swallowed. Geez, in our middle age, our supposedly maturity, one would think that Ron would be able to recount the past correctly. But he can't, or won't, or isn't able to.
Well, okay then, like so many people who post and wonder here, who try and make sense of what really happened and what was done to them, well, Ron, perhaps, is still searching. He doesn't have a clue.
Because if he was able to come to terms with and 'realize' (hardeharharhar) knowledge and Maharaji, and is able to see what Maharahi really is then well, my guess is that Ron, with the Doctor behind his name, the PHD or whatever is, is still as ignorant as ever.
Just another cult victim.
Joe, thank God, Allah, or whatever, you are like him.
But it makes me attentive that there are still so many seemingly intelligent people who are still wondering and questioning their involvement with the cult. Supposedly intelligent, together people who haven't figured out the con.
Oh well, what are we to do?
Dishonest, hell yes. Immature, absolutely. Sad, yep.
Kind of reminds me of Mirror who posted here recently.

Enjoy and I do enjoy you and your posts,

Love, Tonette

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Date: Sun, Jan 06, 2002 at 23:43:32 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: habitual revisionism
Message:
i think the problem is deeper than one mans PR spin.. the trick in 'charming' somebody is to make them think what you want them to think.. despite glaring evidence to the contrary. Picture the besotted youngster with the utterly unsuitable lover... who just cant see what everybody else sees.

The immense value of EPO, this forum and posts like Joes are simply that they 'hold a mirror up to nature'

When I was a premie.. I operated my 'logic' within a bubble of faith. Now my bubble is marginally bigger I look back at my former self and can SEE the influence he had upon me, from the outside of the bubble.

Maharaji blows and maintains bubbles for premies to live within. He influences the entire operating system... colours the water.

Hold up the mirror, and eventually people will wake up and see what has been pulled.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 12:30:19 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Good point....Ron Geaves
Message:
Loaf, I think you have something there. It's like feigned or real sincerity can replace actual facts. It's very weird, and even all these years later, I can see how you could watch that video and be lulled into complacent, illogical acceptance. If you want it to all be true, which, if you have invested 25 years in it you probably do, it would be pretty easy to do that, as long as you don't think about it too much.

I would say most of the speakers are quite sincere, or seemed quite sincere. That's most. There are a couple of people who, if you watch their body language would lead you to think otherwise. They are a bit hyper in the hand motions and seem to just be trying too hard to convince (probably themselves as well as others) that what they are saying is true. They seem a little nervous about what they are saying. You know the thing about "trying too hard?" I don't think Ron falls into that category.

I think people like Ron have invested so very much in Maharaji that doubting him is just not possible at this point. For some of the speakers, I think Maharaji is like a Father who is far from perfect, but whom you protect and defend because you love him and because he's your father, no matter how illogical the defense might be. I think these people are intensely loyal to Maharaji, and they have made the decision that they will accept and love him no matter what he does. This might be especially true of people who have spent quite a bit of time around him and feel "special" as a result.

They would follow the Ira Woods rule, that even if M said he was a fraud, they would follow him anyway, because it's about faith, not actual experience, and it's insidious, because in my experience, faith can, in and of itself, be a powerful and attractive experience. Ask any Pentacostal Christian, or Jehovah's Witness about that. I think the experience is much the same.

BTW, I have been informed by another source that at the recent Miami program, three people from the side of the stage, addressed Maharaji in front of the audience and expressed their 'gratitude' in gushing and tearful tones. One of the three mentioned that he had knowledge for 32 years. That was Ron Geaves, or so I am told.

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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 14:32:35 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: did you get my email Joe ? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 18:47:12 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Yes, will respond later (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 11:36:29 (EST)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: absolutely, well said! (nt)
Message:
nntt
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