Mike Finch -:- Why I am no longer a premie -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:29:14 (EST)

__ wolfie -:- Re: Why I am no longer a premie -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:38:51 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- Great deduction Mike -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:41:39 (EST)

__ bill -:- Re: Why I am no longer a premie -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:27:16 (EST)

__ AJW -:- Bravo Mike. -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:13:33 (EST)

__ Sir Dave -:- An explanation of a mystery -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:57:48 (EST)

__ __ Teef (alias: StevieJi,Steve Mueller) -:- 0ne possible explanation for: seeing God -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:23:31 (EST)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You're right - I saw God -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:02:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- How can you say that? -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:15:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Something like that... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 19:24:57 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- To see the world in a grain of sand... -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 05:20:06 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I think it was an hallucination... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:51:45 (EST)

__ __ AJW -:- Loose Ends. -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:16:17 (EST)

__ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 10:11:44 (EST)

__ __ __ Mark Appleman -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 15:34:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:09:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:29:02 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:38:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:19:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:15:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 06:56:37 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Leave the forum, Steve? Don't dare! -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:02:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Re: An explanation of a mystery -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:28:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- A race of Gods in Bods -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:52:32 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog =) -:- PatC did you see 'Life of Brian' yet [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:39:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Stop nagging me, Deputy -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:59:02 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog =) -:- What happened to Poochie? [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:17:59 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Poochie? He grew up! -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:35:34 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Pat and Everybody.. -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:59:20 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Music, poetry and god's grandeur -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:24:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joy -:- That's just so beautiful, Mark -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 00:10:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Now, Mark, Prove it! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:07:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- Re: Now, Mark, Prove it! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:42:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Yes Mark that Helps x (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 02:05:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Okay, then... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:51:23 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Hey Mark....... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:00:36 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Re: Hey Mark....... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:12:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Good advice Sulla -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 23:13:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Thanks, Deborah. -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:07:30 (EST)

__ __ __ cq -:- Apparently it's a form of 'parasomnia' -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 11:01:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Not my manifestation -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:02:44 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- 'Snapping' I can't recommend it enough... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:47:17 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Me, too. It made all the difference in the world [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:03:29 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Another Snapping link... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:50:52 (EST)

magnolia -:- bjork quote -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 03:26:11 (EST)

__ Kev -:- Re: bjork film OT -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 06:34:22 (EST)

__ AJW -:- I thought Bjork was banned here. (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 05:48:34 (EST)

Vicki -:- Degrees of Separation -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 22:29:23 (EST)

__ Francesca :~) -:- It's because the love and your heart -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 02:43:11 (EST)

__ Peg -:- From an unseasoned ex -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 07:39:07 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Thanks Peg and Kev -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:11:42 (EST)

__ Kev -:- Re: Degrees of Separation -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 07:29:55 (EST)

__ __ Richard -:- Ironic thing, Kev -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:41:05 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Ironic thing, Ditto Richard... [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 15:12:49 (EST)

__ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Degrees of Separation -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 01:46:44 (EST)

__ __ Disculta -:- Great post, Steve -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:14:17 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Thanks Steve -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 06:05:28 (EST)

Bai Ji -:- Housemom are you OK?... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:07:45 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Housemum is fine.... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:18:42 (EST)

__ __ Bai Ji -:- Re: Thanks Joe (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:03:15 (EST)

december2001 -:- fbi & g. mahara ji -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:36:08 (EST)

__ janet -:- Re: fbi & g. mahara ji -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:37:36 (EST)

__ december2001 -:- Re: fbi up & down -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:47:12 (EST)

__ __ janet -:- schizophrenia, friend. you have it. -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 05:12:40 (EST)

__ __ __ Peg -:- Janet.! You are so kind. [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 06:57:20 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- I hope he takes your advice, Janet -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 05:36:51 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Is that you, Jim Boeger? [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:04:52 (EST)

JHB -:- Search facility on EPO -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:17:20 (EST)

__ cq -:- dog's bollocks, cat's whiskers ... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:28:11 (EST)

Joe -:- Yoram Weiss -- professional fundraiser -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:49:07 (EST)

__ cq -:- Opening closed doors -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 09:37:38 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- Re: Yoram Weiss -- professional fundraiser -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:04:53 (EST)

__ __ AJW -:- I agree Jeth. -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 06:07:35 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I agree Anth... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:02:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- No beach to walk (ot) -:- Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:20:23 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Where does Yoram live? -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:16:26 (EST)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Cloud cuckoo Land, I think [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 22:41:34 (EST)

__ Loaf -:- Re: Yoram Weiss -- professional fundraiser -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 14:57:22 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Shot his finger off? -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:18:19 (EST)

__ __ __ Loaf -:- yes.. he operates on 9 1/2 digits ! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 09:27:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ bill -:- Re: yes.. he operates on 9 1/2 digits ! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:42:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Bill, Nice post [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:08:43 (EST)

Nick -:- M never asked for money -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:14:13 (EST)

__ cq -:- See the documents for yourself -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 09:01:56 (EST)

__ __ Nick -:- The main point... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 10:49:55 (EST)

__ __ __ cq -:- Re: The main point... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 11:18:08 (EST)

__ Kev -:- Re: M never asked for money update -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 19:56:33 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- HI! -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:30:31 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- M is perpetually hitting up premies -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 17:55:28 (EST)

__ michael donner -:- Re: M never asked for money -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:16:56 (EST)

__ __ Disculta -:- Millennium fever -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:14:25 (EST)

__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Millennium fever -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:00:51 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I'm so glad I missed Millennium fever! -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:02:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- I knew it! nt. -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:58:23 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Are you kidding? -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:22:08 (EST)

__ Marshall -:- Re: M never asked for money -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:53:50 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- 31 Sept? they even revised the calendar -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:29:17 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- They always were incompetent -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:20:53 (EST)

JohnT -:- Unholy Trinity -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 04:10:37 (EST)

McDuck -:- Joe, re the ashram closures in 76 -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 00:47:21 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Re: Joe, re the ashram closures in 76 -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:45:00 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- McDuck...about '76 and Padarthanand... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:57:49 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Mysterious forces like Mr IDZap below -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 04:29:50 (EST)

__ __ Jethro -:- some rambelings -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 04:46:10 (EST)

__ __ __ Nottm Bunny -:- Krishnasukanand was in UK -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 11:16:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ helper -:- Re: Krishnasukanand was in UK -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:54:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Nottm Bunny -:- Above should read: K- was in UK recently (NT) -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 11:26:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hi Bunny (ot) -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 14:53:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- PS Bunny (ot) -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:41:36 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Krishnasukanand -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:01:32 (EST)

Pat:C) -:- Abi, my apologies -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 00:17:13 (EST)

__ Abi -:- strange -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 03:02:54 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Re: strange - yes -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 04:04:28 (EST)

Bai ji -:- What's going on... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:09:00 (EST)

__ Jethro -:- Looks like a software error NT -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:11:58 (EST)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Looks like a software error NT -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:17:55 (EST)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Above NOT NT - [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:19:42 (EST)

Mike Finch -:- Categories of premie and ex-premie -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:49:47 (EST)

__ Deputy Dog -:- Good analysis Mike! :) [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 23:33:50 (EST)

__ Danny -:- Re: Categories of premie and ex-premie -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:39:03 (EST)

__ __ Deborah -:- Any brand of Maha is wrong -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:23:09 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Yes, it does -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:05:26 (EST)

__ Jerry -:- What about the God lovers... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:18:59 (EST)

__ __ Dermot -:- Good point Jerry -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:10:27 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Sorry, I don't buy this at all -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 14:45:47 (EST)

__ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: Sorry, I don't buy this at all -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:47:02 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Slight misunderstanding, I think -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:17:20 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Categorizing is Dangerous... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:35:09 (EST)

__ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: Categorizing is Dangerous... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:52:36 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Mike Finch... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:59:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Gopis resent classification... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 09:43:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Gopis resent classification... -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:06:52 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- I can sense a shift in myself -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:49:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Good Loaf, take it upstairs:) [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:07:06 (EST)

__ ChrisP -:- Re: Categories of premie and ex-premie -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:41:49 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Yes, ChrisP -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:03:01 (EST)

__ __ __ ChrisP -:- Re: yes, ChrisP -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:38:04 (EST)

__ AJW -:- Reviling Maharaji. -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:37:34 (EST)

__ __ Mahatma Coat -:- Re: Revealing Maharaji. -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:14:30 (EST)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Mahatma Ji I need help. -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 05:34:42 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Mahatma Coat -:- Re: Mahatma Ji I need help. -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:05:05 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- LOL ! when is the movie coming out? (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:40:55 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Re: Reviling Maharaji. -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:05:08 (EST)

__ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: Reviling Maharaji. -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:13:28 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Mike, did you know Dougie Little? -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:23:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: Mike, did you know Dougie Little? -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:34:00 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Mike -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:32:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: Thanks, Mike -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 17:59:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- No, Mike, you don't have to comment -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 19:47:47 (EST)

__ JHB -:- It was me, Mike -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 01:44:11 (EST)

__ Hey are you? -:- The person who used to post as -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 21:53:08 (EST)

__ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: The person who used to post as -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 22:17:10 (EST)

__ hamzen -:- Yeah not bad Mike -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 21:07:40 (EST)

__ Zoey -:- Re: Categories of premie and ex-premie -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:55:07 (EST)

__ Dermot -:- Hmm I'm not sure Mike... -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:37:04 (EST)

__ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: Hmm I'm not sure Mike... -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:00:29 (EST)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Understood, Mike [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 23:13:57 (EST)

__ Nottm Bunny -:- Devotion was the hook -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:26:32 (EST)

__ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: Devotion was the hook -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:48:30 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Great Therories Mike -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:23:52 (EST)

__ Bai Ji -:- Re: Categories of premie and ex-premie -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:10:52 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Excellent Analysis, Mike -:- Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:08:03 (EST)

__ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: Excellent Analysis, Mike -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:41:09 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Well said, Mike -:- Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:03:32 (EST)

Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:29:14 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: All Subject: Why I am no longer a premie Message:

I got K on June 1 1970, and was a totally committed premie for over 30 years. I meditated for the statutory hour a day for 31 years, often much more, and very rarely missed a day. I travelled all over the world to see Maharaji - India many times, Australia, South and West Africa, practically every European country, and all over USA. For most of the time ashrams existed I was in one, giving up careers, education, and marriage. For considerable parts of my 31 years, I was close to Maharaji personally - had many intimate conversations with him, much private instruction, and was probably the envy of many. I was an instructor, and talked to many, many people with M's backing, and gave Knowledge to many people as well. Even before being an instructor, I was a famous satasang-giver, speaking often at the Palace of Peace and elsewhere up until it was videos-only time. In England I was one of a group of five that M appointed to run everything, and I toured all over being the grand honcho. Much of this time was painful, but there were enough good times, amazing times even, to keep me going. I had some very beautiful experiences - timeless moments of great beauty that I still remember vividly - both in my meditation, and in various other situations with M. I thought that it was my fault completely that most of my time was struggle, pain, and confusion; and that if I tried harder, gave up more, meditated longer, then I would move more into Maharaji's world and those beautiful jewel-like experiences would become more common, and the frustration and pain would recede, and I would realize Knowledge. So why am I no longer a premie ? It began in the late 90's, when I started thinking that here I am, blaming myself for almost 30 years for not realising Knowledge (whatever that means) - surely if Maharaji is the Master, he should be able to factor in all my shortcomings and still lead me to the ultimate. In other words, in Maharaji's terms, he takes the hundred (or thousand) steps towards me, only asking me to take the one step towards him. Yet clearly I have not been able to take that one step, since I have still not realised Knowledge or melted away into boundless devotion or gratitude or whatever. So if I cannot take that one step in 30 years, then he must come the 101 steps towards me so that I do not need to take even that one step, which I obviously cannot take. So one of two things must be true: EITHER he will not take that one extra step, in which case even if he is the Perfect Master, Lord and everything, it is no good to me, so I might as well leave; OR the whole thing is bullshit. In either case, leaving is the only option ! So I left, and am no longer a premie. -- Mike

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:38:51 (EST) From: wolfie Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Re: Why I am no longer a premie Message:

Hi, it's a little bit similar for me. Practising knowledge according to Maha's advice left a lot a questions for me in the field of meditation. I had a few wonderful expierences in 28 years but I could never see that it is so wonderful like he talks about. That started to make me think maybe it is only for him so wonderful, his worldly standard, his career, his achievments, how all the crazy and wonderful premies serve him. I started to think maybe he deals with that K like those Amway freaks. For myself I realized that a teacher I can not talk about meditation is no help for me. I think meditation needs more guidance and discource. For me things were more helpfull in the times of Satsang but there was the love of real people ( unreal too) but I can't relate much to videos and after 28 years it was a fair chance in perspective of my limited time. I practise some buddhistmeditation and it helps me much more to enter that inner space and there is more inner vision. If you meet Buddha on your way ...kill him........ciao wolfie

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:41:39 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Great deduction Mike Message:

You factored it right down to the common denominator EITHER he will not take that one extra step, in which case even if he is the Perfect Master, Lord and everything, it is no good to me, so I might as well leave; OR the whole thing is bullshit. In either case, leaving is the only option ! So I left, and am no longer a premie. It doesn't even matter that the first statement is a fallacy. You based your logic fair and square. For you it came down to this option, an option many premies would never entertain. But you still brought it to a conclusion that your 'real' mind could grasp. That's the beauty! cheers, deborah

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:27:16 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Re: Why I am no longer a premie Message:

Hi Mike. In your conversations with him, you were of course always standing before god, how would he reinforce the I am lord idea when you had your conversations with him? Did you always manage to stay out of his way and defer to him consistantly and that was your method of surviving seeing him without incurring his displeasure? Was his swearing and tough talk amuseing because it seemed so contradictory to his status? Did he ever back you up against the wall verbally to check your intimidation level? In retrospect, do many of his conversational styles seem like more bullying than anything else? Was it exhausting or would you just retreat to the breath to manage the thinking reactions you may have had? When up close with him did you mostly just feel your breath, and what did you think about when watching him doing whatever? Did his abruptness and regal manners disappoint you or did you just figure that he was the lord and 'he knew' and you figured that -he knew that you knew that he knew-.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:13:33 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Bravo Mike. Message:

Hi Mike, Whichever way you slice it, it doesn't work. Naturally, a premie believes the reason it doesn't work is because he or she isn't surrendering enough. It's a rigged game. Faith is supposed to be a virtue, but in the case of Captain Rawat, I think it's a distinct hinderance. Oh that we could have fallen from the path a couple of decades earlier, and saved ourselves years of wasted eyeball poking. Life is certainly full of surprises. Like me, I suspect you're glad you got a bit of it back in time. Anth, beyond mirth and breath.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:57:48 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Mike Finch Subject: An explanation of a mystery Message:

Thanks for that explanation, Mike. There's one thing that I've often wondered about regarding you. One evening, during the seventies, you gave satsang about how Maharaji supposedly manifested in your bedroom while you were lying in bed (''feeling at a loose end'', I remember you quipped to everyone's laughter). Was this your imagination, a dream or an hallucination? You see, I too once had a ''manifestation of Maharaji'' while in France. To this day, I've never completely understood it or comprehended it. The only explanation I've come up with is that yes, ''something'' did manifest in front of me and it may have been God. I consider it was God, appearing to me in the form that I'd most easily reckognise. Maharaji was hundreds of miles away in Marbella at the time so it definitely wasn't Mr Rawat. On the other hand, it may have been an hallucination. But there a fine line is drawn. Where does an hallucination end and a manifestation of some power begin. Of course, this is assuming that there are such things. I consider that Maharaji wasn't God but because we (or at least many of us) truly considered him to be God, in the same way that Christians believe in Jesus, then there was ample opportunity for God to manifest as Maharaji, either in actuality or as some would say, as an hallicination.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:23:31 (EST) From: Teef (alias: StevieJi,Steve Mueller) Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net To: Sir Dave Subject: 0ne possible explanation for: seeing God Message:

A human being is an amazing creation. I know that the infinite power sustaining us is so compassionate that it will go to great lengths to do whatever it has to to help us get thru this life. It will even do things like (if it is necessary for a person's evolution) making that person's understanding of God appear to them during any of several states: awake, trance, dream, apparition, whatever. Remember, the image appearing to that person doesn't necessarily have to actually BE an incarnation God. It only has to SIGNIFY or MEAN God to that particular person. This is why I saw Maharaji in a vision during an LSD trip I took in 1976. At the time, it confirmed for me (or so I thought) that he was indeed God. I now know that if my image of God had been a jackass, THAT is what I would have seen. Indeed, my image of Maharaji now is that of a JACKASS, one that, from what I read in posts, delights in kicking PAM's, people who get too close to the JACKASS. So, in spite of the fact that he used a lot of truisms to advance his personal agenda of greed, one of those truisms M used is still true: With God (not M, mind you, God - BEEEEEEG difference!) all things are possible. Thus spaketh Teef.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:02:21 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Teef (alias: StevieJi,Steve Mueller) Subject: You're right - I saw God Message:

and I did see God, dressed up as Maharaji. At the time of my own Manifestation of Maharaji/God, there was a huge and rapid communication between He and me that was akin to telepathy, only much deeper. Now I know this is going to sound corny but here's what it left me feeling; ''There has never been a time when you and I have not existed.'' Sound familiar? In that moment I saw an eternal relationship without beginning and without end, between me and Him. It was as if the curtains had been parted and the obvious fact was staring me in the face. So I don't consider it was an hallucination although I don't mind if other people think it was.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 15:15:01 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: How can you say that? Message:

If you don't consider it a hallucination (which it most obviously was, in my eternally respectful opinion), why would you leave him? I wouldn't.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 19:24:57 (EST) From: Sulla Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Something like that... Message:

Something like that happened to me when I was still in introductory level while all my friends were already aspirants. I was in a stressful situation just before satsang started, so I gave a look at M's picture on the wall and told him: I don't know who you are but if you are really something you've got to help me now. Satsang began and I started to see light around the premie who was talking, and suddenly, the light became greater just before my eyes. I wasn't thinking at the moment but my feeling, as I was one with the light was like: When did I get separated from you? And I was totally surround by love from my heart and I felt like a little baby in her mothers arms, totally identified with that light as the most familiar thing in my life, if I would've had to go with that light in that moment I would've without missing anything in this world. After that moment I was completely changed and each pair of eyes I could stare at brought me joy, and I had to do an effort there, and later at home, in not staring at the same pair of eyes all the time or too long so I didn't look weird. The experience lasted some days until I was called into service meeting and I was the only one who didn't receive any service to do, I don't know if that was a shot to my ego or to my heart, but after that I felt miserable and full of resentment with God, who gave and then took away such a gift from me. So I went to look for old friends and old ways to ease my pain, and found only one with whom I could talk about it, and while I was talking I could feel my heart again and when I left, everything was bright, the trees, the birds, the sea, every thing was full of life. I never had an experience like that again not even when I received k, but that was the proof I was looking for. Later I went to my parish with the good news that I had seen God, and the first Father who I talked to, an old nice one who insisted I talk to him, changed his mind quickly after he heard what I have to say, telling me that he was going to call the other Father since he was more prepared to deal with young people like me. I had a long and friendly conversation with him that lasted for more than an hour. Another time while I was premie, I was walking outside and I started feeling as if my eyes were a pair of windows from whom someone was looking through, I can't tell you if I liked it or not but it felt strange, maybe a little scary. I had other strange happenings like this before I got to know about M. and also a repeated dream that I could have sworn was true, if it would have been possible for my friends to be in my room throughout the night while I was completely ashamed to be seen by them in my pajamas.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 05:20:06 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Sulla Subject: To see the world in a grain of sand... Message:

....and heaven in a wild flower, as Blake put it. Heightened emotion stimulates the imagination. If a homeless, drunken Viet vet (plenty on the streets of SF) came up to me and said, ''I am god,'' I would pity him. If someone arrived in my life with a three-ringed circus of sainted mahatmas, (like Ghandi Ji no less) a Holy Family and a schpiel that fit right in with every cosmic mystery which I had ever experienced on LSD and said to me, ''I am greater than god because I can reveal god,'' and this was accompanied by beautiful music, whipped up emotions, a heightened sense of hope and joy, I would stop and listen. The first time I had darshan I saw the universe in Rev Rawat or that his lotus feet barely touched the earth and that all happened inside me. It was the same for the next ten years and dozens of darshans. Boy, could I tell you some fairy tales! It happened because I believed and hoped that it would happen. Rawat sure had a good show in the beginning. It simply got so hokey and unimaginative that it soon became obvious that every wonderful experience I had was in my own imagination. The part of the brain that houses the imagination is stimulated by emotion, especially emotions of joy, hope, euphoria and bliss. Booze can do it. Entheogenic drugs can do it. Ecstatic sex and music can do it and so could the Rawat Family Circus - well, once upon a time. We all got out of it exactly what we put into it and most of the folks here seemed to have been highly passionate people and put a lot into it. Those who remain in the cult seem to lack much of the adventurousness and intensity that there was in the beginning. No surprise since it now seems that Rawat never had much going for himself at all other than a pretty good revivalist show inherited from his dad. It was fun for a while until it became obvious that it was just another stupid religion. Yes, I still worship my breath and think it's quite worthy of being called the Holy Name of God eventhough I don't believe in god and, even if I did, would ask him to take early retirement as enough horror has happend in his name already.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:51:45 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Teef (alias: StevieJi,Steve Mueller) Subject: I think it was an hallucination... Message:

Steve, Your explanation is flawed for those of us who don't believe in god. I didn't believe in god when I was a premie, I believed in Maharaji. It is common among those who are in personality cults to have hallucinations, especially in cults which teach meditation and use repetition (satsang), along with sleep deprivation, i.e., exhaustion. I don't consider these visions as a mystery at all. Our brains are powerful things and in any of the above-mentioned states, hallucinations are possible. Human brains deprived of thinking will do many inexplicable things. Meditation, knowledge, is the hallmark of m's brainwash, programming, call it what you will. I used to pray to have m appear before me either in dreams or while awake. One of the reasons is because I heard about these manifestations happening to other premies and I was jealous. My remark in no way places blame on those who had these experiences and related them. I had many experiences which I thought were mysteries of the universe, which, of course, I believe Maharaji was in charge of. Lots and lots of premies had these experiences. My 2cents, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:16:17 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Loose Ends. Message:

Hi Dave, Are you sure Mike said he was in bed feeling 'AT' a loose end? Anth, the lowest common denominator.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 10:11:44 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery Message:

...about how Maharaji supposedly manifested in your bedroom... Was this your imagination, a dream or an hallucination? I think now it was a dream. Several times since then, I have had such strong dreams about someone that it was as if I was actually with them in a waking state. Powerful dreams, but I think just dreams nevertheless. How you choose to interpret these, or what experience you attach to the phenomenon, is another question, and purely subjective of course. I am sorry for hyping you, and many others, up over what I now consider a wishful dream !! It was still a powerful experience for me at the time, though, and I still remember quite vividly the bedroom it took place in, and what I saw, after all these years ! -- Mike

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 15:34:52 (EST) From: Mark Appleman Email: apple4256@datastreet.com To: Mike Finch Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery Message:

There is another possibility on this phenemenon that presents itself for serious consideration (and this post is also my commentary on the 'degree of separation' thread below). There is a meaningful section somewhere in the links about 'faquir chand' (I've probably mutilated his name beyond recognition). Anyway, he was part of the Rhadosahmi tradition and discussed by Professor Lane. Well a few people had visions of him during a wartime experience where he literally came to them and suggested a path to safety. Later they ran into him and did their version of pranaming and devoting to him. Well in VERY UN-RAWATLIKE FASHION, he disavowed knowledge, took no credit for it, etc. However no one denied that this happened. Certainly pockets of enormous goodness, care, love, and kindness were experienced under the umbrella of this 30+ year experience of Premie life. An experience that in retrospect must be included in a long historical list of 'false messiahs'(and a minor one at that; though one's own false messiah is never a minor figure). While I agree with Mike's assessment of the Maharaji movement being 'bollocks' from stem to stern just based on his failure to walk the hundred steps,etc. (and knowing him personally, I congratulate him on graduating from the Rawat School of Self Limitation! It certainly was no Hogwarts ), it doesn't discredit the growth we each experienced in that stage of our human adventure process. In that enviornment of total trust,many wonderful and cosmic events transpired. 'How could that be', we ask ourselves. Well for one thing, we are part of a big universe, with all sorts of interconnected bandwidths. And this universe, that we are indeed part of, is quite capable of performing in ways that are beyond our current scope or understanding. This is addressed intelligently by many (including our regular irregular Ms. Darling at www.motherwave.com). Well there seems to be a level of ourselves what inter-locutes with this larger universe. Many call it the higher self. Its function is to provide stimuli and events - digestible to our own particular customized intelligence - that forward our overall progress into the Big Love, God, All That Is, whetver you want to call it. At whatever speed we program into it. So images that we might have of Maharaji ( or faquir chand, or the 'good maharaji' dissolving in the thread below) are all containers that we - in conjunction with our higher self - manifested to move along our ongoing self realization. Another interesting article by Lane where he 'gave knowledge' in his college student class (without any aspirant program or any pre-technique brain-'wash'ing) gave results where participants experienced a wide range of 'beings' appearing in their 3rd eye during the light technique. These beings were by and large the reigning concept of a wise/divine man for each student. Students without a concept of a savior generally didn't see anything but 'light'. So when we bought the 'Maharaji is THE ...(fill in the blank) of our lives' belief system, his image was overlaid onto all spiritual experience. And since the Universe we live in as a functioning and conscious part is LOADED with ecstacy, joy, wisdom, and love that puts Bahkti in the 'cheap high' category, we will (if we desire) continue to grow and get new overlays and belief systems that will facilitate wondrous growth. As most have outgrown Maharaji being the filter for their own experience of self, our own higher self will become a useful focusing tool for us consciously attracting better 'operating systems' of consciousness. Maharaji, when we each bought into him, was at that point the largest conception of God or our self that we could entertain or imagine. I'm sure we can all do quite a bit better the next time we ask the 'genie'(genie within us = genius)for a better connection to Source. I recieved an undeniable (tho inadvertant) benefit from the Maharaji Spiritual Illusion Programme. For over two decades, I absolutely and unabashedly reserved a place in my neurologic electro-magnetic circuitry for a DIVINE human being. This acceptance on my part allowed me for intermittant periods, to hold MY SELF in the same level of consciousness that I was projecting that Maharaji had attained (I mean he did say he was permanently in perfect god consciousness, back in the day). When the Maharaji bubble burst for me, I was left with a decision. I could throw the whole thing out - after all, it was obviously totally fucked up. OR allow that same spiritual current that I had become accustomed to having in my life (because as a 'true devotee', I had maintained that God frequency in my own life) to run through my inner and outer life without an intermediary. This led me into a 'lemons to lemonade' scenario, as I embraced my divinity not only intellectually and philosophically, but Energetically as well. The Energetic frequency that each of us have earned ( Mike with your 30 years of meditation )praying to whatever false god we did is Spiritual Currency indeed. And like the Euro, it can be spent or invested in many new 'countries of spirit' that we shall attract to us in our lives ahead. To me I feel there is only one guru or initiation - if that is what we call it. And that is our own divine,or Higher level of self. Our one pointed devotion - if it existed - will bring us deeper and deeper into this true Brindaban of our Authentic Self. The gurus,standins, wisemen or conmen we attract to ourself are just training wheels on the Unicycle we were trying to turn into a bicycle built for two. While things are very strange indeed during the deconstruction period of a full blown belief system like Maharajism, it is comforting to that the entire universe is biased to our full awakening into Joy. And whether it happens in the 1st 5th or 15th round, I assure all that YOU will emerge victorious. By reclaiming your personal divinity, personally invested in the spiritual Enron of your youth. As Anth so aptly said in his journey. It wasn't that M wasn't the living Lord, he was !. Just like each and every one of us. All. A race of Gods in Bods. And that, my friend,is no hallucination.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 12:09:56 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery Message:

The Energetic frequency that each of us have earned (Mike with your 30 years of meditation) praying to whatever false god we did is Spiritual Currency indeed. And like the Euro, it can be spent or invested in many new 'countries of spirit' that we shall attract to us in our lives ahead. Hi Mark Thanks for your post. This in particular is a great sentiment, and very encouraging. I have been doing a Buddhist Insight meditation for about 8 months now, and feel sometimes like it is new to me and I am starting all over again; but at other times that I have been doing it for many years - just as you have expressed it above - and it is very heartening to feel that all that Knowledge meditation was not wasted after all ! Hope you are well Mark, good to hear from you after all these years ! -- Mike

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:29:02 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery Message:

Well said and extraordinarily well thought through. As others have said, the follow up clarification helps tremendously. As always, thanks for bringing back maps and scouting reports from your adventures. Richard, looking forward to seeing the Race of Gods in Bods at the Olympics

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:38:22 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery Message:

While things are very strange indeed during the deconstruction period of a full blown belief system like Maharajism, it is comforting to that the entire universe is biased to our full awakening into Joy. And whether it happens in the 1st 5th or 15th round, I assure all that YOU will emerge victorious. By reclaiming your personal divinity, personally invested in the spiritual Enron of your youth. Now we are getting something of remarkable value out of this whole three decade debacle. I myself am finding after dispensing with the grief, the dispair the anger of having to give up my hopes and dreams of serving the higher purpose I once thought m represented, it turns out that there is another option. With the obstacle of M out of the way and laid to rest from my own identiy I have discovered the renewed chance to embrace my own personal and independent option to spiritually awaken (for lack of a better term. This time on my own terms, through my own efforts, with no need for a teacher, a guru, a master, a religion. Just entirely by me this time around conducting my own personal journey of self realization. There are many others experiencing this same facinating phenomena I find more and more each day it seems. Thanks for the confirmation Mark

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:19:53 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery Message:

Good to see your name agin Mark. Love the post, only part I might add is that Murphy's Law has me as a believer now. I believe in Murphys Law. It is so powerful that no one seems able to go from success to success to success in life. No one is able to use money and location to avoid Murphy. Not one person ever seems to have somehow gotten around Murphy. Murphy is so smart that problems come perfectly tailored seemingly to git you. FOlks blame the next guy for causeing trouble in thier life but it is Murphy doleing out your due. It aint Karma, because sitting still adoreing god in a cave will still get you a world of trouble. No one can control thier own experience. We are not able to maintain a steady mental state. It fluxes. These and other boundries that I am fergitting at the moment are there for reasons I can guess at, but one reason I can mention that is why I posted, is that the boundries tell us that an intelligence put these boundries on us. Not an unconcious oneness. There is a god thingee that is concious and the negative proof of that is Murhy's Law and how we are all facing insurmountable boundries. In addition, no one can attain any sort of 'higher state' except for very short moments. NO one has gotten anywhere and stayed. Spititual types of course will never admit that, they think better to pretend and blame themselves for not being able to do the impossible. There is a god, he she it just aint as advertised. The god is playing a rough game here.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:15:27 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: bill Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery Message:

In addition, no one can attain any sort of 'higher state' except for very short moments. NO one has gotten anywhere and stayed. Spititual types of course will never admit that, they think better to pretend and blame themselves for not being able to do the impossible. This is a very valid point Bill, I can't say that I know anyone who walks around 24/7 maintaining a peak higher experience. The thing is that though if someone gets out of the box for even just one time and experiences something more than they previously knew existed that is That one experience alone is enough to forever change and alter that persons perception of the box as they once knew it and the way they view the future possibilities of getting out of the box some other time. The box that I refer to here is that of the conditions and beliefs we set for ourselves in this life. The act of exiting is an act breaking out of the box so to speak and I am finding that my particular box is one of ever expanding dimensions in many amazing directions. Nice post Bill

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 06:56:37 (EST) From: Steve Mueller Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery Message:

Thank you Mark! Thanks for your fascinating explanations and enlightening encouragement. For a while there I was afraid that I was the only strong posting proponent of continuing the pursuit of our own higher selves, of not allowing our disenchantment with M to disengage our hearts desire to bask in the love, light and enjoyment of our higher selves. In fact, I had even considered leaving F7. You've given me reason to stick around. Brilliant post. Very nice job. Thank you so much for sharing!

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:02:47 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Leave the forum, Steve? Don't dare! Message:

Just because some of us are atheist heathens doesn't mean that we don't enjoy upbeat and loving posts. And anyway, don't you love it that we hardly agree on anything except one thing - we all took the massa's leash off and are now free and happy to be and do whatever we want?

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:28:24 (EST) From: Kelly Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Re: An explanation of a mystery Message:

Brilliant post Mark, and very illuminating. I know that many of us find it hard to explain to ourselves some of the more 'cosmic' experiences we had around M. At the time we attributed them entirely to him and the impact of these experiences became the glue (impact adhesive!) that kept us stuck in the cult for so long. I had my share of such experiences, and I'm still mystified by some of them. I found the article on Charisma and Darshan (in the Indian background Index on EPO) very helpful, and your post threw some light on it too. Thanks Kelly

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:52:32 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: A race of Gods in Bods Message:

I no longer have much taste for Hindu concepts such as Gods in Bods but I do see that human beings are the only animals with free will and power over there own evolution. I sometimes wonder what exactly the Greek gods meant to the ancient Greeks; not the antique ones like Zeus and Dionysus, who were at least as old as Minoan civilization two thousand years before the peak of Athens, but the newer ones like Hercules who were usually heroes before they became gods. Debussy said about Bach: ''He is a benign god to whom all musicians should pray.'' Music (not only classical but nearly all music) often reminds me how divine humans really are so I do understand what Debussy meant. We are all lords of the universe even if we do have take out the garbage and wash dishes.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:39:21 (EST) From: Deputy Dog =) Email: None To: PatC Subject: PatC did you see 'Life of Brian' yet [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 13:59:02 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Deputy Dog =) Subject: Stop nagging me, Deputy Message:

I can't call you dog anymore now that you have taken of the massa's leash. :) Yes, I did and I fell asleep. I warned you that I can't stand Monty Python.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:17:59 (EST) From: Deputy Dog =) Email: None To: PatC Subject: What happened to Poochie? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:35:34 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Deputy Dog =) Subject: Poochie? He grew up! Message:

But, if you insist, I'll call you Poochie.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 11:59:20 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: PatC Subject: Thanks, Pat and Everybody.. Message:

This thread has helped me understand a lot. Pat, you said: Music (not only classical but nearly all music) often reminds me how divine humans really are so I do understand what Debussy meant. We are all lords of the universe even if we do have take out the garbage and wash dishes. You have a way with words that help me to understand stuff and laugh, too. Your last sentence above made me laugh and your reference to music rings true in my heart. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:24:54 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Music, poetry and god's grandeur Message:

Too funny that an agnostic like me enjoys religious music more than any other - especially requiems and anything where a choir of human gods and angels sings the glory of god. I simply replace the word god with the word life and am quite contented. I wish I could post the Gloria from Verdi's Requiem here but here's one of my favorite poems: God’s Grandeur by Gerard Manley Hopkins, 1844–1889 The world is charged with the grandeur of God. It will flame out, like shining from shook foil; It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod? Generations have trod, have trod, have trod; And all is seared with trade; bleared, smeared with toil; And wears man’s smudge and shares man’s smell: the soil Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod. And for all this, nature is never spent; There lives the dearest freshness deep down things; And though the last lights off the black West went Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs— Because the Holy Ghost over the bent World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings. Of course everyone knows this poem of Hopkins': Pied Beauty GLORY be to God for dappled things— For skies of couple-colour as a brinded cow; For rose-moles all in stipple upon trout that swim; Fresh-firecoal chestnut-falls; finches’ wings; Landscape plotted and pieced—fold, fallow, and plough; And áll trádes, their gear and tackle and trim. All things counter, original, spare, strange; Whatever is fickle, freckled (who knows how?) With swift, slow; sweet, sour; adazzle, dim; He fathers-forth whose beauty is past change: Praise him.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 00:10:43 (EST) From: Joy Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: That's just so beautiful, Mark Message:

I really got off on those last few paragraphs of your post (from The Energetic frequency onwards). I have often felt that, that even though the M trip was a load of hogwash in the end, our having participated in it at all was the true value that we got from it. Even though I see M and Knowledge as bogus now, the people that have been practicing it for 30 years, to my eyes, are awesome, spiritual people. So how to reconcile those two things has been at times difficult for me, and you have explained it so beautifully. Thank you!

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:07:54 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Now, Mark, Prove it! Message:

Dear Mark, I don't understand your explanation. How were/are you able control your brain? You said: I recieved an undeniable (tho inadvertant) benefit from the Maharaji Spiritual Illusion Programme. For over two decades, I absolutely and unabashedly reserved a place in my neurologic electro-magnetic circuitry for a DIVINE human being. This acceptance on my part allowed me for intermittant periods, to hold MY SELF in the same level of consciousness that I was projecting that Maharaji had attained (I mean he did say he was permanently in perfect god consciousness, back in the day). How did you reserve a place in your neurologic electro-magnetic circuitry for a DIVINE human being? Exactly, how did that work? Were you conscious of it? What did you do to maintain it? What power did you have over the millions of neurological circuits in your brain, to alter that when you found out m was a fake? Christ, I'd really like to know exactly how you did that. In other words, you were not in a cult, you had free will the whole time, your mind was altered only to the extent you allowed it to be altered or obliterated by cult indoctrination. You consciously accepted m as your lord and were able to control all the stuff inside your skull and sort it out after you realized that what you controlled in the first place, inside your brain and mind, was false? It doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand that process. Prior to receiving knowledge I was an atheist. I had no desire to have a guru nor join any groups of any type that were mystical, meditation groups, nor mainsteam religions. So I don't get how you have so much control over what your belief system evolved into after being programmed into a cult, nor your ability revise that belief system to your liking after the ''bubble burst.'' There is much about the brain I don't know. I only know two things relating to this subject. 1. I was inducted into a cult and worshipped m as the living lord, i.e., I gave up my mind; and 2. After a long period of time I realized that m was a fake and a fraud, and the process of deprogramming myself began and continues. I'm not trying to put down your belief system, but to spread it whole like butter on toast here could be confusing to people trying to sort out the cult mindfuck. I get the gist of what you are saying, but I don't understand your process. Best, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 18:42:08 (EST) From: Mark Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Now, Mark, Prove it! Message:

Hey Cynthia. It is simply the mind/body connection at work. The mention of eating lemons or one's favorite imagery for sex will momentarily reprogram you into those states . Our mental body,emotional and spiritual body are as real as our physical one. There are quite a few stages and processes at work here on this Forum. One is getting at the real life of a self proclaimed teacher Another is the exiting process -that one is most ot it. Another part is getting back to the CELEBRATION of love light or whatever you call it. that's the bit I choose and chose and will always choose to 'butter up'. But that's just me. All our processes are our own. Simply put, I have just recycled the love I gave outside of myself to my own self. Its just human consciousness and choice at work. watering my garden.I continue to learn from others. But no more Giving my power away. To me the end of Maharajism IS the beginning of Hope. (thanks Bai Ji) hope that helps.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 02:05:03 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: Mark Subject: Yes Mark that Helps x (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:51:23 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Mark Subject: Okay, then... Message:

Hey back Mark, That doesn't exactly explain what you said in your original post, but your second post does help me to understand. I also have learned through not to give my power away. And loving myself is the most important thing for living well and happy. I don't call it a universal thing or a higher power, but I think I do understand what you mean now. Thanks. Best, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:00:36 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: Mark Appleman Subject: Re: Hey Mark....... Message:

I took immense hope from your post. Right now I have had (as you so aptly put it)my training wheels disconnected and found my balance to be wanting. Sad state of affairs for an ageing ingenue unicyclist. I have no faith in Anything at present, due to the shock of betrayal by the one i believed to Be God. This is proving to be the most lonely of feelings at this time but there is nothing I can do about it 'cept ride it out. At the end of my rope, one of my strongest silent complaints to m was that, if you are you and i am your beloved, how could you not love and accept me as I am? I have devoted myself and life to you FULLY for nearly 30 years and I am still feeling that 'It is all my fault' When will I be good enough for you? Even if I am deluded, How can you abandon me? I now commit that i do not want to be the lover of a God that isn't there for me. Actions NOT Words are what I can trust. Words from m are not legal tender. He doesn't even want to know my name. Thanks Mark Love Bai Ji

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 21:12:19 (EST) From: Sulla Email: None To: Bai Ji Subject: Re: Hey Mark....... Message:

Bai Ji, the same is happening to me, It's painful not to believe, but the pain will pass and hope will remain. After all this nightmare I could not believe in Him anymore for the association with M, and I'm still feeling uncomfortable each time I had to name God, so each time I have to do it I add 'if he exists' because I really don't know if he does, I don't have any proof anymore, the one I may have had may be mixed in my brain with you know who. It hurt Bai Ji, but lets not close all the doors lets have hope, we don't have any proof that He doesn't exist either. Lately I don't worry about it to much, if he does exists I believe he will understand since he knows everything, even if we don't acknowledge him He will proudly accept us as we are and love us throughout our life, so lets save the gift from the garbage and arise, we won't fall with the looser who couldn't bare to live with the truth. With Love.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 23:13:09 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Sulla Subject: Good advice Sulla Message:

Don't worry about the 'god thing' one way or another. It is the carrot that sets you up for conditional thinking. Let your thoughts flow like a wonderous waterfall cascading over the breathtaking scenery. Be proud of your thoughts and allow them to expand to the point where they cannot be labeled and placed in boxes. Experience life. Embrace your thoughts. Cherish them. Your mind will always try to resist the binding of 'false truths'. Priests teach the parish that 'thoughts' are the evil offices of the devil and Maha taught us that our own 'minds' were the evil offices of humanity. BULLSHIT! We have broken the shackles of cult indoctrination. Your mind just needs time to learn to relax in it's new environment. Be well, to both of you. You have my undying support. deborah

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 08:07:30 (EST) From: Sulla Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Thanks, Deborah. Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 11:01:40 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Apparently it's a form of 'parasomnia' Message:

http://www.nightterrors.org/parasomnia.html [ Click here for information ]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:02:44 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: cq Subject: Not my manifestation Message:

which took place while I was standing, wide awake during the day, in the middle of the French countryside somewhere between Paris and Chateroux.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:47:17 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: cq Subject: 'Snapping' I can't recommend it enough... Message:

Hello All, If you haven't read this book, I highly recommend it. It explains a lot and is recommended also by Rick Ross. I think for every cult exiter it's a ''must read.'' Cynthia [ Trancenet Review of Snapping ]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:03:29 (EST) From: Barbara Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Me, too. It made all the difference in the world [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:50:52 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Another Snapping link... Message:

which gives several sample pages you can read... [ Snapping at Amazon ]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 03:26:11 (EST) From: magnolia Email: None To: All Subject: bjork quote Message:

here's a great quote from bjork i read today: some people play golf, some get drunk - one method isn't better than another. but if i ever sat down and listened to a guru tell me how to meditate, i would feel like i'm having an affair. i would feel disloyal to my own temple. bjork, singer, index magazine, june/july 2001 now there's a woman of great common sense. magnolia who loves that strange voice from iceland

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 06:34:22 (EST) From: Kev Email: None To: magnolia Subject: Re: bjork film OT Message:

hi Magnolia, Great quote but if you like Bjork you must, must, must see a film she did called Dancer in the Dark. The film will break your heart but is worth it. Love kev.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 05:48:34 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: magnolia Subject: I thought Bjork was banned here. (nt) Message:

It's a joke. Anth the missing punchline

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 22:29:23 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: All Subject: Degrees of Separation Message:

Lately I've noticed something rather odd happening to me and thought perhaps you seasoned ex'ers might have some thoughts on this. It's only been a little over six months since I found EPO and all hell broke loose for me. It's been a long process, layer by layer, of removing the nearly thirty years worth of indoctrination. It seems now that the Maharaji I thought existed, thought I loved with all my heart, thought was the Lord Incarnate, is a figment of my, his and Elan Vital's imagination. But still, he was/is very real to some part of me, and it has been hard to let that go. Now, it seems there's this other Maharaji, the realistic one that I've come to know from EPO, from people on this forum and from my own self. He's quite a different character indeed. At first, it was like these two figures were super imposed upon one another, and the confusion for me was overwhelming. Now, they are drifting further and further apart, eons infact. At times when I have a strong feeling of love, I used to attribute it to him. I don't any longer. The separation has become to great. And the Maharaji I thought existed, is sliding away, degree by degree. I really didn't expect this to happen.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 02:43:11 (EST) From: Francesca :~) Email: None To: Vicki Subject: It's because the love and your heart Message:

... keep going on without him in the picture. You saw him as synonymous with all good things. Pretty soon the good things start to speak for themselves without the middleman. Nice, eh? Love, f

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 07:39:07 (EST) From: Peg Email: None To: Vicki Subject: From an unseasoned ex Message:

I recognise what you are talking about. For me it happened much quicker. I wasn't as involved as you, hadn't been since the early eighties. It reminds me a bit (I am gutted to say) of having a crush on someone as a youngster and then getting to know them or see them in a different way. I am not wanting to trivialise our feelings for maharaji, or for that matter anyone's devotion to anyone or anything. even before I met maharaji I had developed an idea that the best thing in life is to be able to be wholehearted about something. I still believe this, and I find myself casting about like an adolescent for a meaning to my life now. What happened for me (I think) is that what fulfilled that need for a decade, I then coasted on for another two. What I am left with is a big dent in my self respect, and a distrust in my own feelings and beliefs (such as I have left). I am sure, however, however depressing this sounds, that I am richer by far with this new respect I have for self honesty. Hopefully I am now much more discerning about where i will put my 'heart' and I will not allow my future happiness or self respect to be compromised by it. You sound as if you have found a wonderful new avenue for your love in your work. Perhaps that's partly what freed you to see 'the realistic Maharaji'. Peg

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:11:42 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Peg Subject: Thanks Peg and Kev Message:

It surprised me somewhat the width and depth this extended, not just to Maharaji. It seems my dear, beloved 'lord' has left me with a party favor, and that is I don't know what genuine feelings belong to me! It has caused some eye opening moments for myself since yesterday, and I feel certain I understand not only where it came from but how it made me ripe for cult indoctrination. I feel so much better and am not afraid to actually have feelings independent of what I thought was due to Maharaji for thirty years! I could forgive myself if it was soley directed towards him, but it extended into every facet of my life. Thank god for ex's helping to unravel and be there for moral support.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 07:29:55 (EST) From: Kev Email: kevin@kcornell.fsnet.co.uk To: Vicki Subject: Re: Degrees of Separation Message:

Hi Vicky, For me becoming an exes is a lot like getting a divorce. Because they say getting a divorce is far more traumatic than losing a loved one through death. If you lose someone you love through death you grieve for that person but with time you can hopefully go on with your life and come to except that the loved one you have lost is sadly no longer part of your life although you still remember that person in your heart. But with divorce; the person that you once loved is still around but is no longer a part of your life. I have been out for over a year now and it is still sometimes hard to come to terms with the fact that I fell in love with the actor on the stage but at the time I did not know he was an actor. It is difficult to wake up to the reality, that for all those years the person that we were in love with was not real. Now when I look back at my time as a premie I see them as happy times but times that I can never return to. The ironic thing I think for me is that I would still be a premie if it wasn’t for Maharaji. Hope your not feeling to sad. Life really is better when you know the truth. Take care, Love Kev

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:41:05 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Kev Subject: Ironic thing, Kev Message:

You said, The ironic thing I think for me is that I would still be a premie if it wasn’t for Maharaji. If that wasn't so sad, I would have laughed. Well said.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 15:12:49 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Richard Subject: Ironic thing, Ditto Richard... [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 01:46:44 (EST) From: Steve Mueller Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Re: Degrees of Separation Message:

Vicki, The end result of processing perceptions is concepts. Everything distills down to concepts. We once had a concept of M as some kind of great and wonderful person, even as (a concept of) a lord. We're slowly learning the truth and replacing those pro-M concepts with other ones - concepts of him as a greedy, self-aggrandising, despicable guru fraud and con artist. In short our concepts of M are constantly changing. It kind of sounds like, in spite of your self-imposed deprogramming, you still are finding yourself feeling feelings of love or tenderness towards M that you wish you didn't have. In a post below I mentioned something I did that enabled me to totally end all emotional dependence on M. I'd like to repeat it here. About three weeks after I made the decision to ex, I suffered what I call horrible panic attacks (waves of paralyzing anxiety). My understanding now of what happened was this. For 29 years, I always had an easy, convenient way out, an easy answer for everything which was simply: M. Now, with M exposed for the fraud that he is, I no longer had this source of mental 'comfort' to fall back on. What worked for me, what got me thru a difficult two to three week period was simply replacing 'M' with 'God', the pure and perfect energy itself, not a supposed human embodiment of that energy. I was able to successfully bypass pseudo middleman M completely by praying to and giving my love to that pure energy itself. This may sound very strange to a lot of exes, but I have to say that it was only by prostrating to, loving, and praying to the formless energy called 'God' that I was able to get thru this very tough period. Eventually, as my emotional dependence on M disappeared completely, I became a free man again. Also, I am such a sentimental sucker. Even now, I still find myself on occasion humming bars of Blue Aquarius songs (Rock Me M, etc). I don't beat myself up over it. I just recognize, acknowledge and accept that the process of unravelling nearly 30 years of lies is going to take some time. Good luck to you, Vicki.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 20:14:17 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Great post, Steve Message:

... and I'm totally with you on this. I never wanted to give up my connection either. Just removed the middle man. love ktd

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 06:05:28 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Thanks Steve Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:07:45 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: All Subject: Housemom are you OK?... Message:

I haven't seen you here since that distasteful experience you had trawling thru the M emorabilia. Are you OK? Please just drop us a line. I know how devestating this all is. Thinking of you Love Bai Ji XXX

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:18:42 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Bai Ji Subject: Housemum is fine.... Message:

I've been in contact with housmum, who is fine. Perhaps just a bit busy at the moment.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 17:03:15 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Thanks Joe (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:36:08 (EST) From: december2001 Email: december2001@webtv.net To: All Subject: fbi & g. mahara ji Message:

this is a painful post as today is my spiritual b-day. as discussion around is defense escalation like to mention once again that mahara ji, initiators, shri raja ji, and other holy family & close devotees may have relied on contact with the u.s. fbi and other govt.s security at first as a diversion in their spare time. this of course would be graciuosly welcome by fbi and other agencies. i joined the ranks in failing health to regain my losses and its sometimes dificult to imagine mahara ji and his possible over zealous friends spent time creating havoc probably not only in regards to dlm but like many fbi & fbi informants concerning many isuues, individuals, and opinions. speculating there is really little hope anyhow for a country and those involved that eats as much meat as countries around the world did & do? . my involvement needed attendance but am concerned that mahara ji should 1)start over 2)clean up his lifestyle & current family life. if anyone wants to document an experience of this type journalisticly they should send their name, ability, and email and then while december2001 is available maybe some reply. this is not the fist time the fbi has been questioned. would be nice if things work out for the better.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 04:37:36 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: december2001 Subject: Re: fbi & g. mahara ji Message:

friend, you are new. you are only the third person i have ever seen post here on WEBTV like myself. i see in your post some of the classic hallmarks of mental illnes, which I too have had, for 24 years. my son has it as well, as do my three closest friends. it is not a stigma to those of us who have it. to those who don't have it, we are a baffling mystery. your post does not make sense to them. i had beliefs like yours during one passage in my life. my convictions seemed absolutely real to me at the time. i will tell you this much was certain: that it neither made me happy nor those around me. we could all agree that my having those thoughts was something both I and they wanted to see me free of. for a long time i fought their offers of help, telling them that if what i thought i saw was true, i did not want them to give me something chemical that would make me feel happier but would let the things i saw continue to go on unchanged. what I did noot know, was that the reason i was seeing the things i was, was not due to it actually happenning. you need to absorb that fully. while i thought i saw it happenning, it actually was not. it took many years before i finally understood this, and agreed to see if the things I thought i saw, could be ended. it turned out to be me. it was not the world. i had interpreted things wrong. everything i had feared and worried about, for so many years, my conditions [that i not be put into a state of artificially induced happiness, by being given drugs that would let me feel fine, but would let the things I was sure I saw, continue to go on] these things i was suspicious of, in fact did not bear out. let me explain what I realized when I finally accepted the prescriptions. number one: not one of us is that interesting to any agency. truly. the people who work at those jobs there are just poeple, like you and me, and they honestly don't think about anyone any more than you or I ever did. it's just a job. they get up in the morning and go to work, shuffle papers, break for lunchtime, punch a time clock, get stuck in traffic, fret about their waistline, have to clean the cat box and chuck the junk mail in their box each day, just like you and me. no one on earth, not even Osama Bin Laden, is any more important to them than themselves, their own life, their own day. it's stunningly true. as one of my friends said, one time, when his disability check failed to show up in the mailbox on the expected day of the month-- 'OK, I'm getting agitated. But I hope it's just regular paranoia; because if it is, I know i have nothing to worry about. If it's just paranoia, then it's not real, and it's nothing.' to which I had to ask 'what could it be, if it's not paranoia?' and he clarified 'oh. the only other thing it might be is true fear. but if it's true fear, then that's simple. If it turns out to be genuine fear, then I know what to do. so I'm not afraid of it' did you follow that? go over it until you do. because that's what reality turns out to be. your post sounds like you're kinda mangle-tangled up in thinking thatyou would really like to come out of. if I'm right [and it takes one to know one], seriously, do what I did--put your reservations aside, go tell a doctor, and take the dare to try what they have for it. remember--you can always stop and go back to what you were before, if you decide it's not helping. seriously.that's the law. It really is. I do it. it's legal to start, and it's legal to stop. And if you want to stop, it's your right to tell them all your reasons why. In fact, it helps them know what they're doing right and what they can do better about. And they can only learn from working with you. remember what i said: the one point you and we and they all agree on, is that you don't like having these thoughts and beliefs. they make your life hell. am I right?

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:47:12 (EST) From: december2001 Email: december2001@webtv.net To: december2001 Subject: Re: fbi up & down Message:

thanks again for the oportunity of this existing fine forumn. premies around the world experience the awsome ups & downs of g. mahara ji and holy family as an experiment vs. incomplete worldly technology. journalisticly some people experience an obligation to associate with g. mahara ji because of some stuck conception. elan vital does try to fulfill shri mahara ji his associates & people around the world? the ashrams seem to reflect g. mahara ji wants to slow down while gaining capital but where does this energy escape? one thing is for sure the meat industry is like slavery for a world present. if shri mahara ji does lurk from behind his fortune one would think he must realize he needs to relate to continue a lavish type lifestyle? writing is like awaiting economies, you can sit in on it, you have oportunity to contribute. is the fbi absorbing this costly vocabulary? enough questions surface for tech. zones of today, past, & future. judgements possibly will be repaired, advertised, & could be offered space to confused needy audience?

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 05:12:40 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: december2001 Subject: schizophrenia, friend. you have it. Message:

my son speaks like this. it sounds as if it should make sense, and you think that what you are saying is making sense, but while you are using english - and even spelling correctly, what you have said is referring to things that no one else externally can recognize and agree. this is a classic hallmark of having the disorder titled schizophrenia. i know that you are sure that everything you see and think and say is crystal clear, and because ple react to it as if they can't see what you see, you feel that you have some singular awareness that you must not let go of. I am trying to tell you something more than that. I am trying to get you to understand that your speech literally is impossible to understand. It's Not just what you are trying to tell people, about what you see, or believe you are telling people, I am giving you a tip, here, as to how badly disconnected your ability to speak and reach the world, has become. this is what schizophrenia is. the public uses the term wrongly. they do not really understand what happens. they use it to describe things that are not schizophrenia. you have it. it means split off. in your mind,, in what you see and believe, it all makes sense. but other people cannot find the things you reger to. they cannot follow what you say. they cannot see what you point to. they can't hear what you say you hear. you are split off. you can't reach them. they can't reach you. you want to reach them they want to reach you. but neither side is succeeding at it. you have the disorder titled schizoprenia. it is no more unique than having diabetes. or asthma. it's a physical disorder. really. did you ever take LSD? yes? then you know that a chemical in a pill, which is a physical thing you can hold in your hand, can make you think things that seem utterly real. but they're not. the chemical gave them to you. and after a time, it stops. schizophrenia is a chemical thing. a physical disorder. and there is a pill that makes it stop. no more unusual than what LSD does. honest. you put one inside you, you see things that no one else does. you put another one inside you, it stops, and you can see the same world everyone else can. you can be understood. the sense of being the only one who sees, stops. the sense that you can't make people listen or get what you're trying to tell them, stops. you come back. you come back to the same reality everyone else is in. what a relief it is. it is that simple. you have yourself a case of schizophrenia, my friend. get yourself some of any of these, and take them, and see how fast you can come back where we can understand you: try Zyprexa or Risperidal either one. ask for them at a clinic. they're legal. you get em free if you get medi-Cal. take it for...two weeks? a month? then try posting again and see if you don't find that we can understand what you say. that's what the problem is, bud. You've got schizophrenia. no biggie. but you gotta try the pills, man. they work. go get some.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 06:57:20 (EST) From: Peg Email: None To: janet Subject: Janet.! You are so kind. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 05:36:51 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: janet Subject: I hope he takes your advice, Janet Message:

Thanks for taking the time to explain that to him. I know who this is because he is the only premie with WebTV 1.2 as his browser. I have tried in real life to help him but am not as sympathetic as you are. I don't have the patience as I have also looked into the jaws of madness and decided that I would be destroyed if I took that route. There are several premies here who faked schizophrenia in the 70s and 80s to get SSI since they did not want to work in the cold cruel world but they got caught in their own web of deceit. The saddest thing is that he does not realize that most of his misery comes from his anger at and hatred of Rawat.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:04:52 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: december2001 Subject: Is that you, Jim Boeger? [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:17:20 (EST) From: JHB Email: brauns@apollo.lv To: All Subject: Search facility on EPO Message:

The search facility on EPO is now working for EPO, EPO2, EPO3, and EPO4; but only from the home pages. To get the search links working from all the pages requires uploading every page again for all the sites, which I will do, but not just yet. Let me know if there are any problems. Many thanks, and not for the first time, to Brian for his help. John.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 08:28:11 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: JHB Subject: dog's bollocks, cat's whiskers ... Message:

at last I can find my way round EPO again. Thanks muchly. (thinks ... it's a big site you've there) [ How to post Forum links, and format text bold, italic etc ]

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:49:07 (EST) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: All Subject: Yoram Weiss -- professional fundraiser Message:

I've been hearing that Yoram Weiss is the guy who mainly puts the squeeze on premies to get them to donate to Maharaji personally, and I guess also for the expensive toys Maharaji wants. But what do we know about this guy? I remember him as the mild-mannered Israeli premie/initiator who spoke very broken English. But I think it has to be seiously considered that Yoram is personally making money off his fundraising activities. If premies weren't living in mindless cult-fear, they would ask this before forking over the cash that Yoram is asking for. If Maharaji and EV weren't so paranoid, and were reputable, they would disclose this to potential contributors. I was told about a conference call to premies in which Yoram said premies whould give STOCK to Maharaji as a gift, hence M wouldn't have to pay taxes on it. How much is Yoram paid to make these fundraising pitches, and does he get any kind of a commission on what gets raised? I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Yoram's personal finances aren't directly affected by how much he raised for the former Lord of the Universe. Think about it. He certainly is paid something, given all kinds of perks, I would imagine, and taking a cut of the take is so motivating to be a real salesman. Maybe it's just pure devotion that motivates him, but I think with a lot of the higher-ups in the cult, there is a mix of motivations. Is Yoram married? Where does he live? Does he have any other source of employment/income besides hawking for the Lord? Has he ever held a 'real' job in his life? Anyone know?

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 09:37:38 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: Opening closed doors Message:

attached link may be useful to those who'd like to find out more about where the money goes. [ A citizens guide to investigating nonprofit organizations. ]

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:04:53 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Yoram Weiss -- professional fundraiser Message:

I know his parents and last saw them a few years ago in Jerusalem. I don't think he has income at all.His parents were worried about him. They went away from M 'because of the money' thing (their words). They go to occasional program fo rth 'love vibe of the premies'(their words)They were then on some other path and were surprised when I said I wasn't on any path. They were concerned for Yoram's future. I think that m will drop Yoram like ahit brick when it suits him. So Ithink Yoram is still running on 'devotion'.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 06:07:35 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Jethro Subject: I agree Jeth. Message:

Hi Jeth and Joe, I agree with you Jeth, about Yoram running on devotion. The premies around the Captain are always living on the edge of poverty and unemployment. Everything has to be focused on the Captain, as a matter of devotion and personal realisation, as well as satisfying his outrageous demands for luxury. After all, the aim of every career premie like Yoram is to be bound to the lotus feet for eternity, and to spend every breath serving him. As I said below, Yoram's reward is in heaven. He's a big fish in a little, evaporating puddle. He has status, he jets around the world, he marches into the residence with an air of importance. He doesn't need to talk to the lower orders of the cult, except through a microphone, or to complain about the quality of his food or laundry. Yoram is a stormtrooper on a mission from God. I don't think money even comes into it Joe. That's for the likes of the lost to worry about, like you and me. Anth, planning a walk on the beach to scavenge from the wreck.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:02:01 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: AJW Subject: I agree Anth... Message:

Sad but true. Cynthia, no beach to walk...tons of ice covered snow, I'll stay indoors today.

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Date: Mon, Feb 04, 2002 at 14:20:23 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: No beach to walk (ot) Message:

Hi Cynthia, Our beach is covered in tons of timber from a Russian ship that beached outside our front window in the storm on Saturday night. In fine Cornish tradition, the wood is being carried up the cliff paths and taken to safety by gangs of locals, who have been dealing with wrecks and spilled cargoes for centuries. Anth the born again Wrecker, drawing up plans for his new kitchen units and outdoor furniture.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:16:26 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Where does Yoram live? Message:

It's not like there is an ashram for him to live in. Does he live at 'the' residence? I assume he is paid a salary, as slavery is illegal in the USA.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 22:41:34 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Joe Subject: Cloud cuckoo Land, I think [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 14:57:22 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Yoram Weiss -- professional fundraiser Message:

Yorum I beleive shot the tip of his finger off in order to avoid doing national Service in the Israeli army. I dont believe he has any financial stake in M's business.. when I knew him he was an exceedingly loyal and devoted supporter of M.. and would take great pride and pleasure in M's approval

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:18:19 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Shot his finger off? Message:

Are you serious? Drastic move. But Yoram hasn't lived in Israel for many years, has he? How long ago did you know Yoram? When's the last time you spoke with him? I remember him from 20 years ago, and, yes, he was the ultimate gopi, but that can change and I wonder if it has.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 09:27:21 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Joe Subject: yes.. he operates on 9 1/2 digits ! Message:

Yoram I met and spoke to a few times.. always on official business. He was very much devoted to maharaji. One moonlit night in 1993 on the land in Argentina I was doing service by the residence... listening to the sounds of a small rawat being tickled (probably Amar). Shrieks of laughter were coming out of their cabin.. and I turned around to see a soliary figure staanding by the fence (in fact it was just a piece of string to indicate to the premies where they should not step beyond) about 100 yds from the Res. I watched this figure in the darkness.. it must have been midnight or a little later.. he stood in silence, wanting to be as physically close to M as he possibly could. This was Yorum - after a day in which he had seen and spoken with Maharaji and certainly seen enough of him to tire of the novelty of darshan.. he still obviously adored Maharaji and wanted to wring every last moment of waking contact with him out of the day. i was humbled and inspired by his devotion.. of course he may have been unable to sleep through worry about maharaji's demands and the targets he had to reach..and having been urther disturbed by the shrieking children was standing there asking 'Lord.. when is all this going to stop ??' But I doubt it. He looked happy been there, worn the T Shirt Loaf

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:42:39 (EST) From: bill Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Re: yes.. he operates on 9 1/2 digits ! Message:

Your take on him reminded me of that state of thinking. The constriction of rawats demands for devotion, and the hindu rantings of his dad, are enough, in the absence of forum type thinking, to hold you if you dedicate yourself to your belief enough. When the gopi's like him keep dropping away, it must take great a excusemaker inside to keep the doubts at bay. He must be disappointed that his master is having such financial troubles. He must have intense tunnel vision to ignore the missing faces of devotees. He must have some intricate way of listening to m speak so he can compartmentalize away the wierder things m says. The level of denial and wishful thinking required of gopi's is super high. But, if you were a true gopi type manufactured during the late or early seventies, you have that stuff the industrial church ladies have. And can last till the very bitter end. Which will be bitter indeed for Yurim. He sees m as the truth bearer that holds the hope of man's religious history. Nothing less. When yurim and some others come around, m must shift into lord mold completely. Probably thinks he IS the lord after he meets with Yurim.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:08:43 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: bill Subject: Hi Bill, Nice post [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:14:13 (EST) From: Nick Email: None To: All Subject: M never asked for money Message:

Doing a little research through some archive material this morning, I came across a letter sent to premies on 31 September 1973 and signed by maharaji. It is a rallying call to Millenium: ' ...This year the most holy and significant event in human history will take place in America' - a statement which now seems just an itsy bitsy deluded in the light of the facts. But it worked for me as I put myself into months of debt to get there. Anyway, since I've been reading the Forum, I consistently have seen posts from premies who insist that m has never asked them for any money. Well he did ask me and everyone other premie back in 73: 'I hereby invite you to the Divine Festival of Peace, Millenium'73 and request all premies to help me financially, physically and spiritually to make the program manifest for all seekers of Truth. Isn't it about time you all got together and help me bring peace on earth? Blessings to all the premies, Sant ji Mahararaj.' Revisionism rules, ok!

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 09:01:56 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Nick Subject: See the documents for yourself Message:

The evidence is plain - M's fortune is based on handouts from people he suckered into believing him to be God incarnate. And some of those people are *still* helping him to rake in the readies, all the while claiming that the 'God trip' was something the premies laid on HIM! (see the 'Passages' video for evidence of this revisionism). However sincere these people might appear to be, they are actually self-deluding accomplices to M's continuing, highly lucrative, defrauding of gullible members of the public (of which there'll never be a shortage). And at the end of the day, the depth of your submission to him is measured primarily in $$$$. Aspirants beware! Knowledge is the cheese in the mousetrap of submission to Maharaji. QUOTE: ELAN VITAL P.0. BOX 6130 MALIBU, CA 90264 November 7, 1989 ... Maharaji's increasingly extensive travels have bean made possible in large part by the acquisition of a Lear 55 jet. Three years ago, a worldwide effort was initiated to purchase such a plane, and within several months, in March of 1987, the generosity of thousands of individuals from ail over the globe had combined to raise enough money to make the down payment. The balance due on the plane ($ 2.5 million) was financed with a bank loan, secured in part by Maharaji's Malibu residence. Each month since then, a significant portion of the total amount contributed by sponsors from fifty different countries has gone to reduce that debt. This coming March, a balloon payment on the Lear loan will be due, meaning that the balance owed (approximately $ 1.4 million) will either need to be paid in full or refinanced for several more years. Although it would probably be possible to refinance the loan because of the excellent payment record, many people from around the world who have been supporting the project are hoping that we could retire the debt completely. This would have two major advantages. First, it would eliminate the enormous interest payment (approximately $ 150,000 per year-over $ 500,000 to date) and could thus free up funds for other important projects. Further, it would eliminate the risk that the loan places on Maharaji's U.S, residence, A resolve to repay the loan was therefore made last December at the International Organizers' Conference in New Delhi, attended by Maharaji. Obviously everyone's help is needed to make this project successful. Enclosed you will find a ca rd providing for initial contributions by December 5 , with additional amounts to be pledged for payment by February 21. Many contributors played a significant role in the original acquisition of this aircraft, while many more have since joined in supporting its ongoing operation. It is hoped that still more will join in a global effort finally to gain outright title to the aircraft. Gifts both large and small are welcome and necessary (contributions toward the Lear down payment ranged from $ 5 to $ 50,000). To continue the operations of the aircraft and the ongoing expenses of Maharaji's work, the Sponsorship Program in 1990 will be more Important than ever, since revenues from events such as the Festival of Knowledge and Rejoice will most likely no longer be available to supplement sponsors' regular contributions, but will instead go towards reducing registration fees. The current level of sponsors' support averages about 35°/ less than the monthly need. Since repaying the Lear loan will only reduce the budget by about 10°b, closing that gap will be a major priority in the new year. We are therefore asking that sponsors consider their contributions towards the Lear purchase to be above and beyond pledges already made through the Sponsorship Program. Given the number of people providing regular financial support in the U.S., an average gift of $ 200 per person contributed sometime during the next four months would allow the U,S. to more than meet its share of the worldwide pledge. As you will see from the following sample Chart of Gifts, though, donations in the range of $500, $1,000, $5,000, $10,000 and over will also be needed since not everyone will be able to send $200. CHART OF GIFTS - EXAMPLE 1 donor x $ 50,000 = $ 50,000 2 donors x $25,000 = $ 50,000 5 donorsx $10,000=$50,000 10 donors x $ 5,000 = $50,000 20 donors x $ 2,500 = $50,000 50 donors x $ 1,000 = $50,000 150 donors x $ 500 = $75,000 250 donors x $ 200 = $50,000 500 donors x $ 100 = $50,000 500 donors x $ 50 = $25,000 Checks can be made payable to Elan Vital and are tax-deductible as provided by law. Many cities will be holding meetings in the near future at which time more information about this project will be available. Please refer to your local calendars or schedules for details. In the meantime, any questions may be directed to your community organizer, or write: 'Plane Project,' c/o ElanVital, P.O. Box 6130, Malibu, CA90264. With manythanks for your support, Sincerely, Ted Riskin, New York City Jim Candelet, Boston Jane McCuire, Miami Randy Waterhous, Cincinnati David Mankoff, Denver Sharon Stokke, San Francisco Tony Stampfer, Los Angeles ENDQUOTE http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/lear55.htm [ see the begging letters for yourself ] [ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 10:49:55 (EST) From: Nick Email: None To: cq Subject: The main point... Message:

...I was trying to make above was that the request for money was from maharaji himself. He and subsequently other premies like to be able to blame EV personnel for activities and words which later come to haunt, and which are the catalyst for the revisionist industry. How often we read premies here saying that Maharaji himself never asked for money - but, as Kev's example below shows along with the letter I quoted, this is blatantly untrue. Of course, everyone who has spent any time involved in m's work over the past 30+ years will know that financial support has consistently been the focus of the majority of requests to supporters by EV staff, working on m's behalf and with his full knowledge and complicity.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 11:18:08 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Nick Subject: Re: The main point... Message:

point taken, Nick. I guess back in '73, fundraising wasn't beneath him. But it didn't take him long to delegate that 'chore' to his underlings. Then there's the issue of the empty envelopes at darshan lines, into which premies were encouraged to put their cash. If he wasn't asking for money, how come he let the empty envelopes be distributed?

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 19:56:33 (EST) From: Kev Email: None To: Nick Subject: Re: M never asked for money update Message:

Hi Nike everybody, If you think M asking for money was just something he did in the 70's here is a quote from M that he made on a video called Because of Love made in 1996:- 'A lot of times people are like, well, all I can give is five ruppees or five dollars or five ringgits. Fine, that is wellcome.' I was local video contact at the time and all video contacts were sent a letter from EV stating that this video was not to go in the Library and was only to be shown to PWK. I wonder why? BTW Deborah did Daya really say that? Talk about bitting the hand that feeds you. Please tell me, if you can, when and where she said this.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:30:31 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Kev Subject: HI! Message:

Sorry Kev, what I can say is that I read that in a post. I believe off-hand that it may have been Peg. (sorry Peg, if I'm wrong) Someone was talking about Daya's restaurant and all Daya's PAD's (People around Daya) hanging out. Apparently that comment was overheard. Makes sense to me. Don't forget, Daya is not a premie, she is M's daughter who has knowledge. Do you think his kids who live in Malibu and jet-setting around the planet consider or would ever refer to themselves as premies. They must instinctively know it is low-rent. cheers, deborah

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 17:55:28 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Nick Subject: M is perpetually hitting up premies Message:

Yes, he has literally asked himself. But, the other 99% of the time it is handled through his slave minions. They hit the premies up for money by M's request. M is not expected to say anything to them, he's the friggin LOTU. Premies give up their life, and their thoughts. Shit! After that, it's easy to give up pensions, donate businesses, cough up trust funds, etc. And then there's the premies who say, "I never gave him money"...Bullshit! Every time you go to a program and donate for your seat, you are giving him money. Where else would it go? Not only that, but the premies who don't give M money, don't have it! Nothing altruistic there. I bet they wish they were rich so that they could give it to M. M's precious little daughter, DAYA, even publically stated she wished the premies would go away. But keep the checks comin' eh DAYA? Nobody is stupid. The premies even know the routine. But they're just trying to publically defend M and the cult.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:16:56 (EST) From: michael donner Email: None To: Nick Subject: Re: M never asked for money Message:

tmes, too numerous to mention or even remember...m wanted money and i was part of getting it for him...sometimes it was marolyn trying to arrange an expensive gift/car or whatever; other times it was m himself who wanted a bigger plane or whatever...ask for money? can there be any doubt about his obsession for money...of course always justified as part of his needs to aid in his propagation of the knowledge that only he contols and can dispense.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:14:25 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Millennium fever Message:

And what about :Sell your car in 74 Buy your house in 74 Feed your kids in 74 Be at Millennium 73 How did it go again?

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:00:51 (EST) From: Steve Mueller Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net To: Disculta Subject: Re: Millennium fever Message:

You're close, Disculta, that was almost the exact wording of that '73 superhype slogan. I remember it going something like: Buy your car in 74 Buy your house in 75 Start your family in 76 But serve the Lord in 73. Brian McDermott (deceased (cancer, early 80's) Cdn instructor) told us to go out there and each raise $1000 for M. I was so thoroughly imbued with faith in my living Lard that I walked up and down outside the old Rochdale College on Bloor Street in Toronto asking total strangers on the street if they would please give me $1000. I guess I should count myself lucky that I wasn't thrown into the T.O. nuthouse at 999 Queen St. Those were the daze my friends, we thought they'd never end ... but thank God they did. Sheesh, can you imagine!

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:02:19 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: I'm so glad I missed Millennium fever! Message:

Hi Steve, Man am I glad that I wasn't around during the walking the streets panhandling for the lard. I never had to do any fundraising, I had music service in a premie band and it took up most of my time. I do remember countless times that maharaji was in need of something, especially the aircraft. But nobody really knew where the money was actually going. For instance, while at Deca, premies working in the design room beyond overtime would be interrupted by maharaji for a 'side project,' such as designing a dock for his Miami residence, furniture for the divine res, etc. Talk about being a hog! How are you? Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:58:23 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: I knew it! nt. Message:

afd

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:22:08 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Are you kidding? Message:

I think it was: You can sleep in '74 after peace is established. In the meantime, it's Millennium '73.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:53:50 (EST) From: Marshall Email: None To: Nick Subject: Re: M never asked for money Message:

Lies, lies, lies, Yeeaahhhh... Lies, lies, lies, yeaaahhhh... Remember that song? Thompson Twins, mid eighties

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:29:17 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Nick Subject: 31 Sept? they even revised the calendar Message:

There is no such date, September only has 30 days. We had this same debate a few months back. It never ceases to amaze me how wierdly the cult can twist things around.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:20:53 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: They always were incompetent Message:

Still are. I'm not saying all the people involved are incompetent, but the whole organization is incompetent and never make much sense. Due t0 1) a donation stream, 2) slave labor and 3)compartmentalized, revisionist thinking to the extreme, they never pay the full price for all the incompetence.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 04:10:37 (EST) From: JohnT Email: None To: All Subject: Unholy Trinity Message:

Unholy Trinity is a few poems about Premies, Knowledge, and Mr Rawat. There's an EV Company Song, a lampoon of Yorum (it's a rap, guys) and even a Pearl for Joan. Here's how they start. Click on one! Please sit yourself down and gaze at the screen EV Company Song Your crimes are great because you have no heart J'accuse Prem Rawat Wake up good friends and say goodbye specialK First you wake with a start and a tremulous heart Awakening Have you heard what they say about Randy? Have You Heard... ? It may seem Yoram Weiss could be giving good advice The Shell Man Wandering lonely, weeping and mourning A Pearl for Joan Maharaji is quite useless and uncouth. Useless! Sitebuilders please note the new url for the collection http://www.poetsroads.demon.co.uk/unholy3 (I'll drop a line to JHB, Sir Dave and Salam about the changed url before the old location comes down) Got it bookmarked? Change it now!

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 00:47:21 (EST) From: McDuck Email: None To: All Subject: Joe, re the ashram closures in 76 Message:

in Australia. I haven't talked to Derek yet, but here's a response from someone who was there. I've edited it to protect the innocent/confused. How did Derek explain the closure? 'My strong memories of that time are that it was a grassroots thing - that Derek just went along with the emerging spirit of sex, drugs and rock and roll amongst the premies. I even remember him cautioning a couple of people who were pouring champagne in satsang to keep their connection or somesuch. I don't recall him going for or against the general flow of 76 .' Was there resistance? 'I distinctly remember --- --- -- forming a clique of two and coming to satsang each night with earphones connected to a tape deck which played M satsangs - that satsang coming from the chair being pretty out there by that stage. Other than that, I don't recall any resistance. I mean, with --- --- -- smoking cigarettes, and --- --- - getting married, and M silent, there was no figure to rally around.' Did M/Padarthanand have anything to say? 'Can't remember Paddy being around - maybe he'd gone to the States by then. I remember lots of drinking and getting stoned and sexual intrigue - but not much politics I'm afraid.' [deleted earlier by PatC, a hotboards error or mysterious forces]

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 16:45:00 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: McDuck Subject: Re: Joe, re the ashram closures in 76 Message:

Wow, sounds like a grand old time had by all. But I guess this means it really wasn't Derek Harper who closed the ashrams in Australia, right? It sounds like they kind of closed themselves! Padarthanand was definitely in the states in 1975 and 1976 and I recall him at the Chicago ashram in 1977 as well and in Miami around 1979-1980.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:57:49 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: McDuck Subject: McDuck...about '76 and Padarthanand... Message:

Hi McDuck, I got the k on Jan. 26, 1976 in New Haven, Conn., USA from Paddy, so he was obviously in the states at that time. Where he was before and after I wouldn't know. Just a little piece of a puzzle... Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 04:29:50 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: McDuck Subject: Mysterious forces like Mr IDZap below Message:

I won't delete them this time in case...... Sorry, McDuck that I wiped you out before but I'm glad you saved your post to re-submit. The spamming is starting to look a little more deliberate that I had at first thought. The spammer's IP# ends at an anonymizer service in San Bernadino. Hell hath no fury like a troll scorned.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 04:46:10 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: PatC Subject: some rambelings Message:

hey did you know that David Roupell offered me $100000 and an Australian visa to go there and write computer games? I have a good idea who will be the Fakiranand of this century(NOT DR). I really wish some of these former instructors/intiaitors/mahatmas would come out of the woodwork. Last I heard of Krishnasukanand was in the late 80s when I was secretly told that....wait for it...he had a girlfriend and was either studying or practising homoeopathy. yours painfully Jethro

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 11:16:01 (EST) From: Nottm Bunny Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Krishnasukanand was in UK Message:

Hi Jethro Krishnasukanand was in the UK within the last two years peddling his brand of homeopathy/radionics to any sick/suseptable premies available. He's using another name, begining with M which I can't recall. Apparently he's still good looking and uses this to charm women premies. His treatments were not cheap and he told one very sick premie who he had been treating that he would have to take her hair out of his ju-ju bottle if she did not pay up for further time and she might die. He told another very very ill friend that it was crucial she travel to MJ's programme (Manchester, I think though it may have been Nottingham?)in order to heal. By the way, at this point she could hardly move and was in the most intense pain 24 hours a day. Within a few weeks, she had had two 10 hour ops to remove the worlds biggest spinal tumour which had already eaten two vertabrae (I'm not exagerating - it's the subject of a leading surgeon's international paper and tour). Had she listened to Krishnasukanand she would have been paralysed or dead now. The legacy of damage and destruction that is still being wrought even as we post............ Regards Bunny

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:54:15 (EST) From: helper Email: None To: Nottm Bunny Subject: Re: Krishnasukanand was in UK Message:

yep, I stopped this poor unfortunate premie woman from going to Nottingham, even though she wanted me to drive her there. She was being told in no uncertain terms by the crazed Mahatma how she should just get to Nottingham, (and I was supposed to drive her there!!) Luckily, I had already gotten through the first stages of leaving the cult unbeknown to her and decided it was better to get her to hospital. Any slight bump would have rendered her a paraplegic in all likelihood at that point. She was as close to death as I'd seen anyone, who hadn't quite died yet!!! Mahatmas, hummmmmmmmmmmmmmm Helper

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 11:26:27 (EST) From: Nottm Bunny Email: None To: Nottm Bunny Subject: Above should read: K- was in UK recently (NT) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 14:53:38 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Nottm Bunny Subject: Hi Bunny (ot) Message:

Hi Bunny, hope all is well in the land of Major Oak and his merry acorns. I've been looking out the window watching a ship get wrecked all afternoon, in between watching the rugby. Anyway, shipwrecks seem to happen very slowly, not like in the movies. My bet is it's going to hit the rocks before bedtime. It's a Russian cargo ship, loaded with timber. So, in true Cornish Wrecker tradition, the locals are already organising work parties to collect the wood from the beach as soon as the storm stops. I may be up your way next week. I'll watch out for you between the lions. Anth, I'll email you.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:41:36 (EST) From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: AJW Subject: PS Bunny (ot) Message:

Bunny, I've lost your email. Can you email me please? Anth not the only thing I've lost.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 05:01:32 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Krishnasukanand Message:

I think I read DR saying that to you on LiG. Take him up on it but cash the check before you leave for OZ. Krishnasukanand wasn't the worst except for the way he noisily sniffed his boogers down his throat. He taught me how to stick my tongue up in my snot passages at the PoP in 74. Was his girlfriend a blonde? I thought so.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 00:17:13 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: All Subject: Abi, my apologies Message:

I was trying to delete multiple spam messages. Your new post was targeted first. When I went to delete the spam to you, hotboards froze up and when I looked at the forum, your post had disappeared. I sure hope you kept a copy of it. The spammer was using IDZap and could not be blocked. Again I am sorry for the problems I have caused. Well, it's damn hotboards fault.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 03:02:54 (EST) From: Abi Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: strange Message:

but then the cult is freaky isn't it..

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 04:04:28 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Abi Subject: Re: strange - yes Message:

The cult is freaky but the internet is also wide open. The spammer simply posted copies of the posts on the forum and may have just been a dumb teenager being mischievous. I'm sorry. I hope you saved your post and put it up again. It's made me pretty cautious about deleting spammers and trolls in case it happens again.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:09:00 (EST) From: Bai ji Email: None To: All Subject: What's going on... Message:

with the posts below? They all repeat the same Forum intro. Is this a hack or mistake?

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:11:58 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Bai ji Subject: Looks like a software error NT Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:17:55 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: Looks like a software error NT Message:

Oh damn! I deleted that troll's spam but hotboards seems to have screwed up and deleted other stuff too. My apologies to Abi and Mike Finch whose threads the spam was in. The spammer was using IDZap and could not be blocked. Again I am sorry for the problems I have caused. Well, it's damn hotboards fault.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 23:19:42 (EST) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Above NOT NT - [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 17:49:47 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: All Subject: Categories of premie and ex-premie Message:

I have been thinking recently that how we behave and feel when we leave the cult depends to a large extent on what made us join in the first place. I see four basic reasons for taking Knowledge; probably nobody is one of the four cateogires below exclusively, but I think most people will identify with one predominantly. 1) The peacenik - someone who wants world peace, thinks that M and K will bring it, and so takes K to support M doing this. Peaceniks are often left-wing politically, disillusioned with the politics, ideology, party or philosophy that they hoped would bring world peace, and join M and K, often in a final attempt to see their dream flourish. 2) The gopi - a devotee, someone who worships M, and practises K simply because it is M's agya to do so. All premies like to think of themselves as gopis or devotees, but I mean by 'gopi' someone whose primary motivation is the worship of M. Gopis usually think of K as peripheral, and only practise K either because M tells them to, or because it will make him love them and notice them more. Gopis are completely freaked out if they are not near the front at M's events. 3) The socialite - someone who likes the nice feeling and the nice people at the premie community videos, and just likes the feeling of being part of it all. M and K are important primarily as passports into the lovely world of premie community and belonging. 4) The meditator - someone who wants inner peace, the truth, whatever, and is primarily interested in K as the meditation. M is important because it is by his grace that K will work, and other premies and DLM/Elan Vital are important because they provide the backup support system which will provide the meditator the inspiration to meditate on K successfully. Meditators typically dislike large events with M, but they attend because he might just say the one word or phrase that will suddenly make their meditation take off. There is a fifth category: 5) The careerist - who has invested so much into M and the organisation that they have a hard time leaving; or of course they have a paid position, or a position with a lot of prestige. However, this is different from the other 4 categories, since no one joins with this as their reason - 'I think I will get K and get a career in Divine Light Mission/DUO/Elan Vital/Office of Guru Maharaji'. My main idea is this: When we are an aspirant, we fit into one of these 4 categories predominantly. When we are a premie, we may move from category to category, like a chameleon, even though I think our predominant category remains predominant (I was definitely a meditator). But when we start to exit, we identify much more with the category that we were when we joined, and that this largely determines what we feel, what is important to us as we exit, and what issues we need to deal with. The socialite is the easiest exiter - he/she joined for the good vibes, and if it does not work out, no problem, move on to the next comfortable group to belong to. The peacenik is angry because the just cause was betrayed; not only was world-peace not obtained, but actually it was never obtainable in the first place. The angriest exiter of all is the gopi - having placed M on a pedestal so high it was practically out of view, M is now hated and reviled. I remember when I first posted here a year ago - a very tentative ex - someone challenged me by saying 'if you cannot be rude about M publically, you have not left the cult' - (was that Joe ?) It was definitely a gopi saying that, and said to a gopi it is a clear test of where they stand. To a meditator, however, reviling M is not really that important - the main issue is that they practised Knowledge for some inner goal, and have not achieved it. They blame themselves as much as M for this, and the biggest concern is what to do next. I am not trying to make some grand unified theory to explain everything premie-ish, and even when I read what I have just written, I find myself saying many times 'Yes, but...' However, when I look at premie friends, and ex-premie friends, I do see these categories and how they operate to a large extent, so I find it a useful classification. -- Mike

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 23:33:50 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Good analysis Mike! :) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:39:03 (EST) From: Danny Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Re: Categories of premie and ex-premie Message:

Hi Mike, What would you call someone who was always turned off by the careerists, several of whom are featured quite prominently here, enjoyed the social scene up to the point of it's getting too clubby (see Groucho), though finding many life-long friends and great people involved, was a peacenik theoretically and by generation, though imbued with a profound distrust of groupthink, metoo-ism and hype and found Maharaji and knowledge (gopi and meditator, in your phylum) powerful, inspiring, consistent (where it actually counts) and genuine through all of the cosmetic changes, including the present? Someone with an active irreverence for authority and peer pressure AND a profound respect for actual mastery? Does that 'group' have a name? Let the tomatoes and all-too predictable insults fly! with good wishes to all, Danny

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:23:09 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Danny Subject: Any brand of Maha is wrong Message:

He is not who you think he is for one. He is ONLY a man who got rich off the gullibility that the experience behind the techniques came by his grace. M is not the Electric company. There is no force in the universe which binds you together. No more than a force, that binds you and me or the rest of the souls on this planet. IN India, many gurus are charlatans and they trick the peasants into thinking they were just shown god. Than they get followers and control other people's lives. M is one of those people. Think about Why is that an initiator or DVD can both accomplish the same thing. If a DVD can do the trick ;) , than who needs Maha? Why doesn't he just put up his website with the animation version of the techniques. Why does anyone need to SEE him. M wouldn't need donations and could get a real job like the rest of us. NO. M has strategically laid down the concepts that he wants you to have. He has mislead you, severely. What do you think about all the other cults that have satsang, darshan, knowledge sessions, all by the grace of the perfect master. Are they the losers who got tricked while you're the cool ones who found the right guy? C'mon. Breath techniques are a dime a dozen. K is just one set. You don't need to thank M or be tied to him. His income and lavish lifestyle also grows proportionally with the decline of premies. How is this justified? You do not hold M accountable for anything for a very specific reason. He is above the law. Superhuman. And you just don't have to think about it, you just have to accept it, right? That's thought reform Danny, aka 'brainwashing'

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:05:26 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Danny Subject: Yes, it does Message:

Does that 'group' have a name? Yes, it's called 'cult.'

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:18:59 (EST) From: Jerry Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: What about the God lovers... Message:

...who thought Maharaji would lead us to knowledge of him? Really, I thought THAT was what it was all about and THAT was why anybody was a premie. I don't see anywhere in your categories where people became premies for this reason when I use to think it was the ONLY reason. Wonder where I got that idea?

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:10:27 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Good point Jerry Message:

For the early and mid70's and probaly late 70's 'Initiates', I guess that was THE big reason. Why else would I become (or try to be) his devottee when I'd already left the Catholic Church and when first entering Palace of Peace building ,thought 'oh oh, not another weird religion'. It wasn't until the brain washing set in and convinced me that he was the living Lord, the link to whatever you want to call it....'God' 'The ultimate' etc. That suerly, for the 70's entrants (or the vast majority of them) at least THE predominant motivating factor. It was set up just for that basically. Good point.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 14:45:47 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Sorry, I don't buy this at all Message:

Mike, I just don't think it's realistic or helpful to think of people joining the cult with these distinct agendas. Despite our various backgrounds and personalities, we all believed the basic proposition that Maharaji could show us the secret of life and that knowing it was what we were really here for. Yes, sometimes he focussed, and thus so did we, on the idea that he was going to save the world but when he did we all got into it. There were internal 'careers' within the cult. That happens, it's only natural with any organization, and some people had more interesting ones than others. Of course some people grew to put more primacy on these cult careers than others. Likewise socially, some people are just more social animals by nature and thus cultivated more social lives for themselves. That, too, is bound to happen in any organization. I hve to say that I've always found it bizarre when Maharaji or premies, trying to dismiss ex premies' opinions and experiences, talk about all the different reasons people supposedly got involved, there being the 'good' or 'sincere' ones and then a whole lot of bad ones too. That doesn't ring true to me at all. If people wanted careers, dropping out of society and joining a cult where you're ordered to do things, you can't necessarily take the initiative, even if you are ambitious, didn't seem a good way to get them. If people wanted a full social life, leaving your original friends behind, as we all did, didn't make sense either. Similarly, if you just wanted a guru, Maharaji didn't cut it half as well as some other gurus did. He didn't look the part and he demanded way too much of is -- complete surrender of our lives and minds.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:47:02 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Sorry, I don't buy this at all Message:

I just don't think it's realistic or helpful to think of people joining the cult with these distinct agendas It certainly is not 100% realistic, or maybe even close, but I think it is helpful. At least it is helpful to me, and it appears to be helpful to many posters below in this thread. The question is: Can a partial explanation, while not the 'truth' and drastically over-simplifying, still be helpful ? I believe it can. ...talk about all the different reasons people supposedly got involved, there being the 'good' or 'sincere' ones and then a whole lot of bad ones too.. I am not value judging at all with 'good', 'sincere', 'bad' etc. Actually, I started off writing a piece 'Why I am no longer a premie', and found that I needed to understand why I became a premie in the first place. Once I started thinking about that, then I thought about all the various reasons people in general might become premies, and so I ended up writing the post I did. It is not an attempt to re-write history, or explain away our behavior in some neat four categories, but just an idea. I agree with most everything you write, except that I think it is a helpful bit for some people, like I said. -- Mike

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 18:17:20 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Slight misunderstanding, I think Message:

I just don't think it's realistic or helpful to think of people joining the cult with these distinct agendas It certainly is not 100% realistic, or maybe even close, but I think it is helpful. At least it is helpful to me, and it appears to be helpful to many posters below in this thread. The question is: Can a partial explanation, while not the 'truth' and drastically over-simplifying, still be helpful ? I believe it can. ...talk about all the different reasons people supposedly got involved, there being the 'good' or 'sincere' ones and then a whole lot of bad ones too.. I am not value judging at all with 'good', 'sincere', 'bad' etc. Actually, I started off writing a piece 'Why I am no longer a premie', and found that I needed to understand why I became a premie in the first place. Once I started thinking about that, then I thought about all the various reasons people in general might become premies, and so I ended up writing the post I did. It is not an attempt to re-write history, or explain away our behavior in some neat four categories, but just an idea. I agree with most everything you write, except that I think it is a helpful bit for some people, like I said. -- Mike --- Mike, I wasn't saying that you were trying to re-write history or that you argue that some premies didn't 'get it' or stay in the cult because they got in for the wrong reason in the first place. I was saying that premies say this, Maharaji says this. Anyway, sure, there's some truth to it. I can say this much, people most definitely evolved into these various kinds of premies. Definitely. Lots of overlap but the types are real in that respect.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:35:09 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Categorizing is Dangerous... Message:

The only value I see in categorizing our individual ''hook'' is to understand how we got recruited into the cult. That is, where exactly were we at the point of recruitment contact? Each of us is unique. Our family histories prior to cult indoctrination and our world views at the time of contact are important factors when trying to explore and explain how 'I' got to the point of surrendering my life to a guru and a system of beliefs through intense programming. The point of contact is the most important time because a ''free'' meditation by a ''Perfect Master'' was being offered and seemed relatively safe without any commitment required. Recruiters (and we all fit that category in some way) approached a new recruit by honing in on a person's individual interests and fitting the spiels to that individual. What I wanted out of the cult is moot because cult recruitment was designed to fit the individual until the hook was in and brainwashing began. The goal of a propagator was to get an individual into the satsang hall. The indoctrination in the Maharajim cult was to get a new person to listen to satsang without the benefit of interrupting the satsang giver with questions, observing, and interacting with premies after the discourse, as well as noticing that premies had an seemingly real experience, i.e., shiny eyes, a calm vibe, a welcoming atmosphere. It felt good and sounded great, which in my experience started a desire to want what those premies had, while not knowing exactly ''what they had'' meant. Making the decision to go back to learn more is the final hook, in my opinion, because satsang is designed to stop the functioning of the brain/mind, hence a feeling of euphoria. Maharaji's euphemism for it is ''preparing the ground for the planting of the seed.'' Planting the seed was receiving knowledge. Practicing satsang, service, and meditation after receiving knowledge were supposed to make that seed grow. All it did was stop our minds from functioning. The amount time it took for any individual to make the decision to 'go back, learn more, become an aspirant' is also immaterial because in that one instance of decision, the mind is lost to the cult. Henceforth, free will is lost. Obviously, this varied from person to person, but I think the dynamics are the same. The goal of our cult is/was to eliminate the mind, demonize it, and convince us of it's uselessness. Once a person gives up control over their mind, they are programmed. It is thatinstantaneous. What was wanted out of the meditation or worship or fellowship disappeared, or was made to disappear by hour upon hour of satsang, and putting ourselves into trance states through meditation. Our ability to function normally and make personal decisions was stolen by taking away our freedom of thought. So I think it's important to point out that while we joined a seemingly harmless mediation group with a nice Indian guru (not knowing or believing it to be a cult), our initial motives were erased by Maharaji's programming. The loss of control over our brains and minds was, and continues to be, coldly calculated by Maharaji. His fake benevolence and charismatic ability to force us to do things we would not have done prior to our programming was only possible by removing our ability to think. The process of leaving or exiting the cult may vary from person to person, but I believe that reclaiming one's life and mind is the same for everyone, of course, with varying degrees of ease or dis-ease. Classifying individuals is dangerous and too simplistic because even if a premie stayed for the social scene, whatever that was, that premie was also, most likely, deprived of their mind and thoughts. Exiting is difficult in all cases, perhaps there are varying degrees, but diffcult nontheless. Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:52:36 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Categorizing is Dangerous... Message:

I agree with everything you have written. Classifying individuals is dangerous and too simplistic.. I agree with this too, but I still think it was helpful - see my post above in reply to Jim. Take care -- Mike

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:59:26 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: To Mike Finch... Message:

Hi Mike, I think all points of view are helpful. As you get to know me, you will find I have an opinion about just about everything :) Your posts are much appreciated by me and others here, and I didn't write the above to antagonize or start a dispute. If that's how it came off, I apologize. As PatC said below, those of us who came to k in the 70s came because we thought m was GOD. Period. Btw, I was a gopi to the nth degree. So I do agree that when someone gives everything to m, mind, heart, soul, and becomes completely dependent upon him, (who is believed to be GOD) it is especially heartbreaking and a lot of grief when exiting occurs. That's how it's been for me anyway. This board, the compassion of exes, time and self-examination does eas the intensity. Thanks for being here, Mike. Best, Cynthia, who can't keep all the Michaels and Mikes straight here lately, so many! b)

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 09:43:33 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Gopis resent classification... Message:

What do you think Cynth ? There was a huge part of my devotional subjectivity which would not stand up to inspection... 'that feeling' can ONLY be understood by feeling it.. (or so it seemed) and so when people used any scale of measurement, comparison or scientific/sociological analysis.. I could only ultimately tell them that they were missing the point and that some things defy clasification. thats how the illusion of grace worked ! All the best loafie

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:06:52 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Re: Gopis resent classification... Message:

Hi Loaf, I don't resent being classified as a gopi (I made that distinction). I simply think that there is a point in every cult member's life when the programming took over. It wasn't grace taking over, but bona fide cult programming--cold and calculated and cruel. I must add here that I take responsibility for my life, but I don't believe I was in collusion with Maharaji as a devotee once I gave up my free will and mind. Why did I turn out to be a gopi? Well, I could write a book about my childhood abandonment issues, but it certainly played a part in what my particular needs were at the time I got hooked in. I do believe that the scope of my being programmed into a personality cult can be analyzed by those scientists, sociologists, and psychologists who study cults and their affects on the brain and mind functions. This is a subject I have been doing some reading about. Before I exited the cult, before I gained understanding of what was done to my mind and brain by maharaji I would easily have said it was an experience that defied analysis. Not anymore though. I am beginning to understand that any cult has the ability to brainwash people to the point of total devotion, i.e., gopi, in our cult. So, Loafie, I think that is how the illusion of grace works; the illusion is that m had grace to impart, which is false. I'm starting to believe that being in a cult boils down to that one point where free will was lost and I was convinced my mind was my enemy. Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 13:49:16 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: I can sense a shift in myself Message:

But its only when i look back I realise how much the ground has shifted. When I first exited I had a very hard time making sense of what was going on.. I felt extremely disloyal to maharaji, and also frightened of damnation (irrational even as it seemed). Like Vicky (above) and others have been expressing so clearly, it seems that M took the place of something in my own psyche... and my relationship with 'MY Guru maharaji' has very little to do with PPSRawat. Less than he likes to think. My perception of him was a social construct which he played into and re-inforced. Without any events, focus of an audience, without a stage or a title, he would not have had the same effect on me, or on most other people. Now I find myself here... supported and challenged by you lot.. perhaps in a similar way that i was supported by (and challenged by) Maha and the Prems - this forum and its people are changing me, moderating my opinions and feelings, subtly affecting my scripting so that I dont notice quite how far I have moved from my state of gopi-ness until I look down, as I did when I watched Back Passages the other day. It was a shock to see people I know quite well, stuck in a mindset which I have grown out of. because we have been growing, moving, evolving its easy to think that Premies are doing the same thing.. its only when you meet a Premie friend from the past that with a jolt you SEE the effects of the bubble of belief from the outside... and it doesnt look good folks. I think I shall post this as a new thread, cos thoughts are growing... see you later Cynth :)

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:07:06 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Good Loaf, take it upstairs:) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 12:41:49 (EST) From: ChrisP Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Re: Categories of premie and ex-premie Message:

Categories, explanations and other trappings: Very interesting post, Mike. I, like you, am reading these with 'yes but, and more or less, or right on, or not exactly in my case to all of the above. I would say the meditation (inner experience of truth) was the biggest pulling force on me; the peacenik ride was an added benefit/bonus and I did like the feeling of being part of it all. I did believe MJ was the lord; however I was hardly a gopi, even though I loved the big international festivals - they boosted my belief that my own inner experience of K was truly universal and the common missing link to everyone from all walks of life, language, culture, background and country. As for a career in DLM, hardly! Someone said that premies who are marginally involved stay marginally involved forever, whereas people who are more intensely involved leave just as quickly (except for the inner circle honchos who have too much to lose, of course). The times when I almost did run for the hills early on in my 'DLM career' were indeed during my ashram years. The mental trap that kept me in the ashram for as I long as I did, was my own idiotic determination to prove to myself and every one else that I'm dedicated and truly understand what K & MJ mean. But I'm glad my independent streak won over and I was glad to leave the ashram when I did (ironically about half a year before MJ closed them), and have stayed marginally involved ever since, never quite relating to how can my fellow ex-ashram friends be so devoted to the same old ridiculous service expectations. As for the social aspect of it, well, like every one else I met some pretty cool people and some pretty simple folks as well, all caught in the same cult trap. I had actually invited a friend who had done her psych thesis on cults in university to a program and when I was talking with her after exiting, her advice was to let go of all the false stuff but to carry the good stuff with me. And upon leaving, it seems that yes, I would say the meditation is the one 'shred of truth' I'm walking away with. I've also been interested in buddhist (zen) meditation, believe it or not, and have an affinity for the Japanese-style of uncluttered thoughts and environment. But I do think there's always a flip side to just about everything. Even too much meditation has its side effects! (Please let me know if my thread of thoughts in this post is incoherent and scattered :) And of course, I no longer believe MJ to be the sole owner & master of the techniques, let alone LOTU Cheers, ChrisP

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:03:01 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: ChrisP Subject: Yes, ChrisP Message:

You asked: ''Please let me know if my thread of thoughts in this post is incoherent and scattered.'' Yes, they are but probably wouldn't have been so interesting if they were organized and edited. :)

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:38:04 (EST) From: ChrisP Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: yes, ChrisP Message:

Aha! that explains why I can't seem to do the techniqes in the 'right' (ha) order. And I never seem to even get around to the nectar technique either..... :) now if I can only DECIDE which technique to do next :) now, what was I talking about again? oh yeah, meditation side effects. ChrisP, I'm FLOATING away, hay-ay......

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 10:37:34 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Reviling Maharaji. Message:

Hi Mike, I think I fitted into all four categories you mentioned. I'd like to make a point about 'reviling Maharaji'. Several of my friends have had relationships while in a relationship, even married. Several of my friends drink too much, or take too many drugs. Several of them have cocked their jobs up and caused all sorts of mess. This sort of behavious is all too common and all too human. When their behaviour is described, the descrition of facts isn't necessarily 'reviling them'. None of them, however, have declared themselves to have come to Earth with more power than Jesus, and asked me to surrender the reigns of my life to them, with the promise of peace, both within and without. None of them canvass shamelessly for cash from people they don't even know, aimed at keeping them in a millionaire lifestyle without going to work. None of them have sat down and offered me the chance of kissing their feet, or got dressed up as Krishna, and had themselves crowned. So, when we describe Captain Rawat as a drunk, philanderer, materialist or someone who has made a big mess out of their chosen- or appointed- vocation, it seems to hit hard. I don't see these sort of descriptions of the Captain as 'reviling him', merely as putting him on the same level as the rest of us- very human, imperfect and fallible. If he'd admit his mistakes, aplogise and retire, he'd perhaps find the sympathy and understanding anyone else would in a similar situation. However, he seems unable to get down from his throne, and admit he's the same, imperfect being as the rest of us, accurate descriptions of his messed up lifestyle should be taken at face value. After all, he is an incompetant, philandering, materialist drunk, suffering from delusions of grandeur. It's not surprising he's messed his life up. I think he's been getting of very lightly, in view of the bullshit trip he's dragged us all on. Anth, it's not personal.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:14:30 (EST) From: Mahatma Coat Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Revealing Maharaji. Message:

Dear Brother Anth Ji, Old mahatma ji is so pleased that you are speaking of revealing Maharaji. It must mean that my blissful brother is once again thinking about doing most holy prachar for Sant Ji Maharaj. Maybe you wont mind if I make a few corrections to your way of thinking. First, no one can reveal Maharaji. We are just dust at His Holy Lotus Feet and can only pray that He will allow us to serve Him by revealing His precious Knowledge. You surely recall most beautiful film where Sant Ji says: 'You are receiving my Knowledge. You are not receiving me. If you are recieving me, then yes there can be duality in your heart of black and white. If you are receiving my Knowledge, it has no color.' So, dear Anth Ji, all premies everwhere should remember to NOT receive Maharaji or you will surely have duality in your heart. One more point my brother. Mahatma ji is just totally stressing out about this bastard Captain you speak of. He must really be a monster of Kali Yuga to cause you so much torture. Once more, I beg you to completely reject this miscreant Captain and once more enjoy your life. If we ever meet again we shall share the chillum just like we did in India so many years ago. Bhole Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai!!! Mahatma Coat

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 05:34:42 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Mahatma Coat Subject: Mahatma Ji I need help. Message:

Bholay Shri Sat Gurudev Maharaj Ki Ji, Ananda Canda Bal Bhagwan Ki Jai, Jagat Jnanani Shri Mata Ki Jai, Sat Chit Devar Ki Jai, Hansa Bansa Ki Jai, Bholya Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai, Jai Sat Chit Anand Mahatma Ji, Mahatma Ji, as usual your words of wisdom inspire my heart and my soul and my atma, to merge with the infinite, and raise myself above my fellow creatures to a higher plane. I do have one slight problem though Mahatma Ji. In my last knowledge review with you, I was privileged to be revealed the fifth technique by you. Unfortunately, after I'd finished doing it this morning, I couldn't get my thumb out. I' have to walk bent over at the moment. Can you help please? Your brother, in his grace, Anth, (typing with one hand again.) Bholay Shri etc.

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 12:05:05 (EST) From: Mahatma Coat Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Mahatma Ji I need help. Message:

Jai Sat Chit Anand Anth Ji, This is truly wonderful news dear brother. You say you are walking bent over. You are surely great soul because only the old mahatmas and bais walk bent over. This means you are always remembering how worthless you are and constantly do pranam to Living Lord, even when you walk. This makes mahatma ji so very happy. As far as so called 5th technique, are you sure it was me who was showing Knowledge review? I have never heard of 5th technique. Maybe this bastard Captain, who is always tormenting your dreams, showed this to you to confuse you. There never was a 5th technique. Oh, I know what happened. After Knowledge review, I was telling my dear brother about my last trip to Nepal. Mahatma ji was shown again how to use sacred chillum. Take a piece of hashish size of your thumb, stick it as far as you can into hole in your chillum. Make it burn and be enjoying life. Is it possible you got it wrong? Foregive me if I have confused you. This reminds me of how I got my name. Old mahatma ji was forgetful even when he was young. I would always leave my scarf, gloves, hat, coat or baragon in satsang hall. One day when Shri Hans Ji Maharaji was blessing this speck of dust by making me a mahatma, funny thing happens. All mahatmas and bais were taking walk by Ganges with Guru Ji. Suddenly I was cold and started to run back to satsang hall. He wanted us to speak English for future when Sant Ji goes to West to spread Knowledge. So Shri Hans Ji called out in English 'What did you forget this time?' I did pranam and said 'My hat, my coat.' Shri Hans Ji did not beat me with stick as before but, in all his wisdom said 'That shall be your new name, Mahatma Coat.' (In US, mahatma is pronounced Ma-Hot-Ma. In UK and India it is Ma-Hat-Ma. Shri Maharaji was making funny joke.) Ever since that blissful day, I never forget my hat or my coat. If it had been the day before, I would have been called Mahatma Scarf. :) By the way, If you are Anth, does AJW stand for Anth Ji, Wanderer? Mahatma Coat, sometimes forgetting everything but Holy Name

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Date: Sun, Feb 03, 2002 at 14:40:55 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Mahatma Coat Subject: LOL ! when is the movie coming out? (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:05:08 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Reviling Maharaji. Message:

Excellent summation, Anth.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:13:28 (EST) From: michael donner Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Reviling Maharaji. Message:

ditto, anth...very clear and straightforward.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 13:23:08 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Mike, did you know Dougie Little? Message:

Chris just posted to me about his suicide a few years ago. He was in the ashram in Glasgow when I lived there in 74 when Whittaker was bossman. Dougie was very intense and went to iceland to propagate. Very sad.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 15:34:00 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Mike, did you know Dougie Little? Message:

I don't know which 'Mike' you are asking, but yes, I did know Douggie - in fact, I knew him very well, both as an ashram premie and when he went to Iceland. He was certainly intense, but very quiet, and moved very slowly - sometimes I thought it was intense devotion, other times a mental problem. It was no surprise to me when I heard of his suicide, but very sad nevertheless. -- Mike

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 16:32:56 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Thanks, Mike Message:

I should have asked you in the first place as Donner probably did not know UK premies too well. Dougie was slow on the uptake - definitely not a lot of bandwidth but just a sweet guy. Something sad about him too. Reminded me of another premie who took his own life, the nephew of Harold Pinter. I still feel that with a really responsible and concerned guru these guys wouold have been guided and advised better. PS While I enjoyed your categories of premies post, my take is that most of us 70s people came to rawat because we thought he was god - full stop.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 17:59:22 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Thanks, Mike Message:

my take is that most of us 70s people came to rawat because we thought he was god - full stop Yes, maybe during the 70's, but in 69 to 71 (before M came to the west) few premies thought this because few had met him - only if they had gone to India. When I got K on June 1 1970 in England, M was only 2 or 3 small, grubby black and white photos - Mahatma GuruCharnanand was the inspiration, even though we were told he was only the lieutenant guru, as it were !! When after a few months of struggling with Knowledge I talked about this to GC, he then laid on about how great M was and how I should go and see him. So I flew to India and did just that - and by the end of 2 months with M in DehraDun I did think he was God ! But I certainly did not come to K because of that. Anyway, I have commented on my original post in my other posts in this thread, so I won't do so again here. Take care -- Mike

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 19:47:47 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: No, Mike, you don't have to comment Message:

I read all your posts religiously. :C) And the god bit probably was not as cut and dried as that for me either. I knew that ALL gurus were regarded as gods in bods because of studying Hinduism before getting K. I also got K before meeting Rev Rawat and thought of him in that Hindu way but, after darshan which was very powerful for me, I began to think he was god. After that I conspired with Rawat never to doubt and was complicit in my own brainwashing out of hope I suppose. Oh Boy!

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 01:44:11 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: It was me, Mike Message:

The angriest exiter of all is the gopi - having placed M on a pedestal so high it was practically out of view, M is now hated and reviled. I remember when I first posted here a year ago - a very tentative ex - someone challenged me by saying 'if you cannot be rude about M publically, you have not left the cult' - (was that Joe ?) It was definitely a gopi saying that, and said to a gopi it is a clear test of where they stand. It was me that challenged you to publicly criticise Maharaji. I would classify myself as a meditator, but having joined the cult, being an intelligent person, I couldn't help but notice Maharaji saying that devotion to him was essential to realise Knowledge, so my devotee status resulted from my desire to experience the truth in meditation. Since exiting I have been angry a little, but not that much. The thing about being able to criticise Maharaji was not something that I strongly felt I needed to do, as it came quite naturally once I exitied, but something I noticed that existing premies couldn't do once I started debating with them online. I then adopted it as a test for exiters. For you, though, Mike, I think the situation was different. Maharaji had been a very close personal friend, and even though we might recognise a friend's faults, we are naturally reluctant to talk about them in public, and especially with strangers. John.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 21:53:08 (EST) From: Hey are you? Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: The person who used to post as Message:

Shroomananda? Or something like that. Spelling is off, but are you Shroom? Just curious.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 22:17:10 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Hey are you? Subject: Re: The person who used to post as Message:

Hey are you the person who used to post as Shroomananda? Or something like that. Spelling is off, but are you Shroom? No, I have always posted under my real name, Mike Finch - never anything else ! -- Mike

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 21:07:40 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Yeah not bad Mike Message:

Think you need to define your terms a lot more though. Of your categories I was a meditator first and a peacenik second (about 70-30), and gopi fell at the first hurdle, no electricity sychronicity with the bully & lila man, and careerist, well wasn't that what we joined to get away from, no chance, never, on that one. I would have to say thanx to the careerists though since they caused my first real early days questions round gm himself, people around him didn't seem very pleasant, and it got worse over the years, that whole culture was so fake. You really do learn so much from the culture surrounding someone, the people they attract, and the culture around m stank. From the peacenik angle, politically had great doubts about the system by the time of my teens, thought the only chance for the human race was a change in 'consciousness', a love virus to sweep the planet. I know, I know, we are talking 60's peace & love marshmellow brain after all. But my main beef with yer def's are re anger and meditators. K/meditation was my primary motivation. Had too many really deep one love circular experiences on acid, wanted to be able to access those states without chemicals, got a bit fried on acid. M was never that important to me per se, on a day to day basis meditation was my career, it had much more validity and reality than m ever had for me, BUT because k worked so profoundly for me I kept a big lila space for m after trying for about 18 months to get into him and failing so miserably. Only the lila shit helped me overcome m's bullying tactics on premies, and his poor psycho awareness as a REAL motivator. Other premies, a very few, were important to me, but the org I saw as a total chaos, and to be avoided at all costs. Inspiration for me came from the effects of meditating, and no pressure re work. Maybe I picked up more from him than I realized! But my main point is about anger. I was livid with m for years, not just in himself, but as one of any number of self appointed leaders and gurus who pray on peoples simplicity, openess and needs. People like him, and he is not the worst example, were the reason the west nearly lost the really good, deep parts of hippy culture over a 20 year period. So on top of this 'righteous anger', I then find epo, and that did it for me. His abuse of women I found totally reprehensible, and the jagdeo issue, well nuff said, disgraceful, but finding out about what the deca premies, ashram premies in general had been thru was also appalling. Nice start Mike, but you need to devlop that one methinks. To a meditator, however, reviling M is not really that important - the main issue is that they practised Knowledge for some inner goal, and have not achieved it. They blame themselves as much as M for this, and the biggest concern is what to do next. I am not trying to make some grand unified theory to explain everything premie-ish, and even when I read what I have just written, I find myself saying many times 'Yes, but...' However, when I look at premie friends, and ex-premie friends, I do see these categories and how they operate to a large extent, so I find it a useful classification.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:55:07 (EST) From: Zoey Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Re: Categories of premie and ex-premie Message:

Great stuff Mike. I fell in the meditator category. I drove people nuts with my 'Without meditation there's no devotion' discourses. Had Shri Hans to back me up. Kirpal Singh too. Even Nanak. Problem was I was a flute plugged with mud. Maharaj Ji added the straw of Sikhism and the water of Idolatry and I ended up plugged with concrete. Took the jackhammer of Time, Honesty and the stubborness I inherited from my mother to blow everything out.

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:37:04 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Hmm I'm not sure Mike... Message:

I can relate to all the classifications, though I'm very wary of classifying or being classified, especially with something that reached into the murky subconcious areas of our being. Of course,I agree they are clever classifications, though I'm glad you qualified them by saying we've probably flitted from one to the other (maybe not the corporate climbing one for most of us though). However, I've just got a funny feeling about it all. Or is it just something in me that doesn't want to recognise such neat explanations? Are you sure your analyis is not like some of those psychological make up kits where each participant relates completely to the assesment of themselves but in reality it's so broad and general, it fits anyone regardless? No, maybe not....I do recognise some of the predominant types. I think my predominant type was a blend of more than one though....how does that work? EDIT AFTER ORIGINAL POSTING: I'd probably say in my case( in order of predominance)1. Gopi2.meditator3.Social.......the peacenik, no. Too burnt out and nihhilistic on acid by the time I got the ole brain scrubbed......and careerist...YUCK. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:00:29 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Re: Hmm I'm not sure Mike... Message:

Are you sure your analyis is not like some of those psychological make up kits where each participant relates completely to the assesment of themselves but in reality it's so broad and general, it fits anyone regardless? No, maybe not....I do recognise some of the predominant types. I think my predominant type was a blend of more than one though....how does that work? Hi Dermot I don't know how it works !! My analysis (thank you for using such a grand-sounding word !) is just a few thoughts from another post I was writing that I was going to title 'Why I am no longer a premie'. See my post above in answer to Jim. As I said, it is not a grand theory of everything - just a little classification that helped me straighten out some of my own thoughts. Yes I know classification is the work of the devil etc. However, I can go along with someone telling me 'it might help you if thought of yourself in category X'; but if they say 'You are in category X' then that is a huge no no. Big difference. My post was like the former; definitely not the latter. -- Mike

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 23:13:57 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Understood, Mike [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:26:32 (EST) From: Nottm Bunny Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Devotion was the hook Message:

Hi Mike, Thank you for an interesting classification of premies and how they operate. As far as why people became premies, I think the groupings were not always so rigid. After all, You were doing Vipassana meditation before K and were probably deflected on your course to become a great Lama when Ron Geaves popped back to say he had found the Lord in India! My earnest search for truth and spiritual growth was taking me on course to South America, partly for wisdom and partly for earthly Nirvana away from the west (and India had become much too popular). Then I hit the jackpot without going anywhere; The Messiah incarnate with organic vegetarian eco principles was here to establish world peace and I had the chance of inner spiritual ecstasy to boot. What more could I want? It's true that later I did develop some extreme Gopi behaviour, following M all over the planet. Devotion was the hook for me and thousands more; devotion to the Lord, truth, the saving of mankind and the planet. Many of us have learnt a lot about devotion over the last thirty years: it is one of the most powerful human qualities for good or evil. What a force we could have been! What a waste. Now, for me as a post-premie it’s still devotion - but to my own divinity (real not religion), this sacred planet and to recognise the divinity of my fellow inhabitants (the greatest challenge) and any positive difference, however small that I can make. Bunny (Still an idealist)

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:48:30 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Nottm Bunny Subject: Re: Devotion was the hook Message:

Hi Bunny You were doing Vipassana meditation before K and were probably deflected on your course to become a great Lama Oh yes, one of those haunting might-have-beens ! Now, for me as a post-premie it’s still devotion - but to my own divinity (real not religion), this sacred planet and to recognise the divinity of my fellow inhabitants Good way of putting it ! Take care -- Mike

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 19:23:52 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Great Therories Mike Message:

Your description of the various classifications of premies/ ex-premies is spot on. What you say about the chameleon aspect is true as well because at one point or another in my involvement I fit into all of the categories you listed. And at one point I actually fostered the notion of going for careerist, but being a householder in the early 70's with young children and responsibilities I was told to stay in that role. I can't tell you how thankful I am now for having been able to dodge that bullet. My main motivation for getting here in the first place? You nailed it down perfectly my friend, actually helped me identify where I was coming from a little better today. I was a truth seeker, a meditator that is basically what brought me knocking on m's door. The promise of some sort of spiritual realization or satisfaction that M offered to me through him. Which I did not get from M, in fact upon exiting I have found M to have been a huge obstacle in the way of my experience of inner peace. I am much happier now working through my own realizations, finding my own way without the concepts, religions, and beliefs of the cult and m buggering up my life. Great insights Mike

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:10:52 (EST) From: Bai Ji Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Re: Categories of premie and ex-premie Message:

That was insightful! Ok so guess which category I am in... Yes Gopi. The anger hasn't kicked in for me though..yet. It may or may not. Right now I'm just trying to assimilate all of this information and find I keep having to pick my heart up off the floor several times a day. Not to mention the nights - lack of sleep -nightmarish defragmenting of my soft grey matter drive. Mood swings, nervousness, I jump like a cat if anything falls on the floor. Crying jags, complete lethargy/exhaustion, depression. Lack of hunger. yada yada yada.... I appreciate writings such as yours as it helps me to understand my behaviours intelligently and practically, as I am enjoying little perspective in these early, diffiCULT days. Love to you Bai Polar XXXX

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Date: Fri, Feb 01, 2002 at 18:08:03 (EST) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: Mike Finch Subject: Excellent Analysis, Mike Message:

I would agree with those categories, but also agree that many of us might not fit completely into any one of them. Right, I am the one who challenged you saying that if you couldn't criticize Maharaji publicly, then you are still in the cult. It is by far the truest test, and it doesn't even require that somebody be a 'gopi' for that to be true. It's applicable to the other categories as well. We can criticize politicians, the pope, the Dali Lama, our own parents, others we love, but you can't do that to a cult leader and stay in the cult, because it's the cornerstone of the cult, that Maharaji does nothing wrong, and nothing is his fault, and he is responsible for only what is good, and never for anything bad, that being mostly caused by the premies. But I was never a gopi. I wanted to be a gopi, but I never was. I wanted to love Maharaji but I never did, and that was the source of quite a bit of pain. Acutally, I never felt very attracted to Maharaji, nor liked him very much. I thought it would come with meditation and the practice of what he told me to do, but it never did. It's interesting that this is still the cult philosophy. In Passages (I'm sorry I keep talking about that video, but it's rare to see specifically stated what the cult is about -- it's usually so fucking vague), George Blodwell says, using his cousin as an example, if you meditate for a while, you will fall in love with Maharaji automatically, and it took his cousin about 8-9 months. It never happened for me, and I practiced meditation for 10 years, plus I don't think what those people feel is love, anyhow. I was certainly a peacenik at the beginning, then a meditator (spiritual path religion), then a wanna be gopi when that's what M said it was about, and then I left, after a few years of beating my head against a wall over that. You know, these categories may correspond to personality types. Probably meditators and gopis are more introverts, peaceniks and socialites more extroverts, etc. I think peaceniks get angry at M because we were lied to, because he didn't do what he promised, because we wasted time following M when we could have been doing something 'good for the world' and because M lacks in any sort of social conscience and so do most of the premies. And I think it's the peaceniks who are the most upset at the way Maharaji is lying now, about what he said and did in the past. One thing I do disagree with is that all the categories have an element of self-hate, or self-blame. I blamed myself for not being a gopi, because I wasn't devoted enough, or was unworthy. To a degree I also blamed myself and the premies for the fact that peace wasn't established, because we weren't pure-enough vehicles for his love, and because we couldn't convert enough people. So, it isn't just meditators who experience self-blame. Thanks Mike.

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 20:41:09 (EST) From: Mike Finch Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Excellent Analysis, Mike Message:

So, it isn't just meditators who experience self-blame. Oh no - the whole edifice was based on our blaming ourselves for not being devoted enough, not meditating enough, not surrendered enough, not even scratched the surface yet (I remember that satsang well) etc. That was actually the very beginning of my exit - sometime in the late 90's I started thinking that here I am, blaming myself for almost 30 years for not realising Knowledge (whatever that means) - surely if Maharaji is the Master, he should be able to factor in all my short-comings and still lead me to the ultimate. In other words, in Maharaji's terms, he takes the hundred (or thousand) steps towards me, only asking me to take the one towards him. Yet clearly I have not be able to take that one step, since I have still not realised Knowledge or melted away into boundless devotion or gratitude or whatever. So if I cannot take that one step in nearly 30 years, then he must come the 101 steps towards me so that I do not need to take even the one step, which I obviously cannot take. So one of two things must be true: EITHER he will not take that one extra step, in which case even if he is the Perfect Master, Lord and everything, it is no good to me, so I might as well leave; OR the whole thing is bullshit. In either case, leaving is the only option ! -- Mike

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Date: Sat, Feb 02, 2002 at 21:03:32 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Mike Finch Subject: Well said, Mike Message:

Sometimes I say to premies that if Maharaji was any sort of a decent 'Master' he wouldn't have lost 90% of his followers. He would realize he was doing something wrong and fix it. I also really suffered from the 'not devoted enough' mantra. What a pile of unmitigated crap he fed us.

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