Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Feb 04, 2002 To: Feb 10, 2002 Page: 4 of: 5


Jethro -:- Visions video -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 08:41:00 (EST)
__ Hedda Hopper -:- George Blodwell -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:43:17 (EST)
__ Joe -:- The sad lot in Passages Video -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 12:36:20 (EST)
__ __ Livia -:- Re: The sad lot in Passages Video -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 03:31:33 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- John Hampton? -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 20:40:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ OTS -:- John Hampton -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 11:59:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- bad joke -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:00:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oops! Bad joke -- I'd delete if I could [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:41:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: John Hampton -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:39:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Robotic guy -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 12:53:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: Robotic guy -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:09:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatD -:- Re: Robotic guy -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:26:01 (EST)
__ __ Jethro -:- Re: Ron and Glenn -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 14:16:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- What Ron Geaves didn't mention -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:58:09 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Date of Interviews -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 14:31:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Joe it is all in -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 18:23:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Not me, Jeth - never met the guy (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 12:49:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Hey cq -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 14:28:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- huh? Prof who? 106 yr old mahatma? HUH??? -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:39:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ jethro -:- Sorry I must have -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 17:26:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Ron Geaves -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 18:35:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Ron Geaves -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 18:53:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Occasional Poster -:- Re: Date of Interviews, Ron Geaves etc -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:53:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Ron's forthcoming publications ... -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 05:32:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I emailed him -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:06:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Ron Geaves -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:10:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim S. -:- Hey Joe:I never got my Passages copy..nt -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 00:19:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Please email me. -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 13:11:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatD -:- a new religion -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 19:56:22 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Another point about Hindu trappings... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:26:01 (EST)
__ __ __ janet -:- i remember the names -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 18:15:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Western Initiators -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:38:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog =) -:- What happened to Bill Patterson? [nt] -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 00:02:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ salsa -:- He is an Ex-premie ;) NT -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 09:47:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Bai Ji -:- Arthur Brigham -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 19:48:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Arthur Brigham -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 03:19:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Nick -:- Re: Western Initiators -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:58:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Param Premanand -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 14:22:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Western Initiators -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:44:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Smoking Gun 2 (an underestimate) -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:31:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- I suppose he was pandering -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:07:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- WE called Marolyn Durga Ji - yeah right -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:31:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- the simplest facts are sometime the least obvious! -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 07:35:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Great point Pat -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:02:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Good point, Pat... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:37:59 (EST)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: Another point about Hindu trappings... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:37:41 (EST)
__ wolfie -:- I loved Mohani Bai and Gitanandji ...... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:41:05 (EST)
__ __ PatD -:- Re: I loved Mohani Bai and Gitanandji ...... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:37:30 (EST)
__ __ __ wolfie -:- my love was blind, I did't care -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 03:55:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- wolfie, your honesty ... -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:26:11 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- EV's new registration system -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:24:00 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- This is a great scoop JM -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 19:19:32 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Sign of the times... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:30:04 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Re: Sign of the times... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:40:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Sign of the times... -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 07:15:14 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Question Marianne... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:16:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Reply -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 18:06:58 (EST)
__ Francesca :~) -:- Bringing an old post up -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:27:56 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Exactly the case -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:37:21 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Remy Martin and Courvoisie [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:45:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- If he wasn't so arrogant -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:41:25 (EST)
__ Suedoula -:- Re: EV's new registration system -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 07:30:00 (EST)
__ __ The Maharaji of Malibu -:- will eventually go Rave Style -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:01:36 (EST)
__ PatC -:- The noose of secrecy tightens more -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:44:54 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- What they really need is..... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:28:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- And for $10,000 a month -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:32:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- LoL, Tonette [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 10:38:47 (EST)

Salam -:- there we go again -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 01:24:55 (EST)
__ JohnT -:- You too? -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:08:46 (EST)
__ janet -:- fine by me. -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:22:54 (EST)
__ __ salam -:- I knew I can trust you -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 05:05:28 (EST)

Steve Mueller -:- Pics from 1969, 1970, 2002 -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 00:16:05 (EST)
__ Silvia -:- I remember your face :) -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 09:55:41 (EST)
__ PhotoGuy -:- Links to photos -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 20:02:57 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Photo 3: At work, Mpls, 2002 -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 07:04:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Nice touch, to be at a computer... -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:49:10 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Photo 2: at the office, Toronto, 1970 -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 07:00:15 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- You're so vain -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 05:12:51 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Red, doublebreasted -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 18:12:03 (EST)
__ gerry -:- Uploading Pictures -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:10:34 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- Re: Uploading Pictures -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:21:37 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Your url is imcomplete -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:11:31 (EST)

Brian Smith -:- Living with our differences -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 23:00:44 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- ***A REAL Keeper*** -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 22:51:46 (EST)
__ ChrisP -:- VERY nice post, Brian, thank you (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 22:47:56 (EST)
__ Anandaji -:- Re: Living with our differences -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 20:34:46 (EST)
__ Carl -:- Well said, and heartfelt. -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:52:34 (EST)
__ Ed -:- The real 'Declaration of Independence' !!! -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:38:33 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Thanks everyone -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:57:14 (EST)
__ __ Kelly -:- I totally disagree -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:44:11 (EST)
__ OTS -:- Excellent Post & Thanks -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 10:52:44 (EST)
__ __ Barbara -:- Toe the line -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:06:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Re: Toe the line -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 20:13:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks Barbara... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:30:06 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Just perfect, Brian. Thank you. [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:05:18 (EST)
__ Francesca :) -:- BEST of BEST, Brian! (nt) [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 00:45:14 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Brian, the best thing you say is . . . -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 23:50:10 (EST)
__ Steve Mueller -:- Best of the Best of the Best! Wow! -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 23:39:23 (EST)
__ __ janet -:- put it on the masthead! -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:36:10 (EST)

PatC - read before embarking on -:- two threads below-they've been spammed -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 22:55:05 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Deb, I'm so glad you linked the Dettmers Threat... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 10:37:02 (EST)
__ Francesca :) -:- Hang in there, Deb -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 02:43:52 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- Touched a real nerve did you Deborah? -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:49:15 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Thanks Cynth, Fran, Tonette, & Lookie [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 23:21:32 (EST)
__ Lookie Lou -:- I saw the whole thing -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 23:25:39 (EST)
__ __ Grey Poupell :( -:- Stop it, you peasant swine! -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:48:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Grey, you're so wicked -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 18:06:35 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Disgusting, cowradly, ineffective, impotent -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 23:16:11 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Yes Jim, all of the above -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 18:08:26 (EST)
__ __ Dr John Horton -:- Whoops, sorry about that! -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:39:02 (EST)

Deborah -:- Maharaji: Stop your trolls -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 21:36:59 (EST)
__ __ JohnT -:- It's useless, Premie Ji -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 08:58:26 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, you are your old ugly abusive self again -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 22:01:04 (EST)

Deborah -:- Did Michael Dettmers forget this post -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 21:00:16 (EST)

__ bill -:- ot -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 20:28:15 (EST)
__ __ Deb -:- Re: ot -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 20:52:29 (EST)

Relayed from EV UK email listing -:- Closing down sale? -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 17:47:09 (EST)
__ E Bai Gum-Ladd -:- Re: Closing down sale? -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 20:01:31 (EST)

OTS -:- Fanbelt Grace?? -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 16:28:58 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- No, it wasn't grace at all....... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:04:31 (EST)
__ __ OTS -:- We Kid Because We Love! -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:53:08 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Re: Fanbelt Grace? Me too -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 07:10:49 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- Is there EPO/F7 Grace ?? ?? -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 06:32:06 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- song writers: a challenge for you -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 19:12:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Here is a verse -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 21:18:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ StevieJi -:- Write on, Brian. Happy to ... -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 00:06:59 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Maybe it was lila -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 21:30:43 (EST)
__ Ed -:- 'XXX-Grace'? -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 17:56:00 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Direction - Divine Grace?? -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 17:39:34 (EST)
__ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: Direction - Divine Grace? -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 22:27:10 (EST)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Direction - Divine Grace? -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:15:47 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Add this to it -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 17:15:09 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- OTS, Just chalk it up to coincidence... -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 16:46:16 (EST)
__ __ PatD -:- The Diceman -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 21:08:59 (EST)
__ __ __ ChrisP -:- Grace misinterpreted.... -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 22:48:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: Grace misinterpreted.... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:41:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- repetitive magical thinking has a half life -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 14:05:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Religious bacteria... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:36:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Re: Religious bacteria... -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 14:52:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Livia... -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:41:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Comments anyone? -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:36:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I say Aaargh, too [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:45:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Parking space grace -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:32:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Pat, that's not grace, that's Doris Day parking [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 10:47:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Doris Day parking? -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:31:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Crispy again: -:- PatC's supper, by his grace -:- Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:58:01 (EST)

Joe -:- My Email to Tim Gallwey -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 15:45:24 (EST)
__ bill -:- great work Joe. [nt] -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 20:22:13 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Expect an apology -- fast! -:- Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 16:29:07 (EST)
__ __ Bryn -:- ho ho ho! -:- Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 08:44:37 (EST)


Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 08:41:00 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Visions video
Message:
Comments.
I became a premie at the beginning of 1974, having first heard about m in late 1973.
I don’t recall anyone being Indianised of wearing saris either in Israel (where I lived at the time) or in the UK when I came to receive k and eventually went into the ashram. The only people I ever saw in Indian dress(in Israel) were Mohani Bai and Gitanand who were Indian mahatmas.

In the UK, again, I only saw saris being worn by Indians. I used to attend and enjoy satsang at Indians houses and used to go to Mr Patel’s in North London as well as Leeds and Bradford.

The only other sari recollection I have is one of a picture of Sandy Collier wearing
long whites(maybe that’s what Glenn meant by the Sari brigade). It really was never
an issue. These people are really pissing in the wind trying to revise history. Hey Glen rememberth horror stories you used to tell in the POP about the hell people go to when they leave m
and k?.....I bet you still believe it!

As far as the actual video is concerned, I really find it hard to believe that they
released that as an official video. I really don’t have a lot to say about it except that it does wonders for the ex-premie cause.

I hope that every ‘interested person‘ gets to see it.

Quite honestly they all looked so miserable, talking about all that joy.

Just a few points.
1. Charanand, when talking about the holy family split, forgot to mention that
he(Charanand) went off to be with mataji and bbj for a short period of time.(BTW so
did bihari singh).

2. What Ron Geaves said was totally predictable. I have to give him 100…well
99.999999% for consistency. The person watching it with me (a non-premie who
knows very little about m/k) laughed when I spoke Ron's words before he did.
Ron did forget to mention that he never believed m was the Lord, as he told me a
couple of years ago in our last face-to face conversation(Yes THAT conversation).

3. George,who I thought looked a lot better that when I knew him. Actually said nothing. (Thanks for the tie you gave me George when you were working at Browns).

4. Sandy, I only met you a few times. I now understand why whenever I met you, you
told me not to give you satsang. I find it hard to believe that your interview was done
any time after 1980.

The comment of the person watching the video with me (oh alright she walked out after 20 minutes), was ‘What a sad lot’.
They did look pretty miserable..even sampranand couldn’t turn on the bliss.

I give the video 5 stars for the ex-premie cause.

I give the video 1 star for the premie cause. Why 1 star?
…..because it seems perfect for someone wanting to enter a cult.

Jethro

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:43:17 (EST)
From: Hedda Hopper
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: George Blodwell
Message:
From some fashion rag:

Emmy season is now starting to win some of Oscar’s best perks: parties. The Academy of Television Arts and Sciences honored Emmy-nominated costume designers at a party Tuesday night at the Regent Beverly Wilshire....

Finally, we grabbed stylist George Blodwell by the lapels at the Emmy party, first to admire his Byblos jacket. It featured elaborate red embroidery on top of a sedate gray Prince of Wales check. Second, to ask, “How much longer will flower pins and big gold earrings be in?” “Aren’t they over already?” he asked, in between bites of pappardelle. “Prints are in.” We’ll see when he outfits Matt Damon and Billy Bob Thornton for their upcoming publicity for “All the Pretty Horses.'

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 12:36:20 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: The sad lot in Passages Video
Message:
Yes, they did appear pretty sad, didn't they? There was such a disconnect between the words and the body language. I think Tim Gallwey was the most revealing in that sense. As Disculta pointed out, his agitated hand movements and shifting glances were revealing, as he spun his revisionist theories about Maharaji. He also had an aura of fear about him, and from what I have heard, he tended to freak out when Maharaji gave very heavy satsang, like Jim talked about that night at the Kissimee swamp festival in 1979. So I think it's likely that Gallwey's motivations about Maharaji have largely come from fear anyway, like with so many other premies.

Regarding Glenn and Ron, their dishonesty has more to do with sins of omission, instead of what they actually said, in most cases. Ron Geaves giving that cute anecdote about Maharaji being willing to stay in the ashram in London, and that being some kind of proof that Maharaji wasn't really into money and material possessions, is dishonest in the extreme, and Ron should be called on that. The fact that he lends his professorial demeanor to that kind of misrepresentation is very troubling.

Do you have some ability to communicate with Ron about that? I think it's important that premies know they can't tell lies on videotape and not have to take responsibility for what they said -- that there are people watching it with a discerning eye on the actual truth. At the minimum, if the cult makes this kind of lying propaganda in the future, they might think twice about being in it.

Regarding Glen Whittaker, to be fair, I think his comments about the 'white sari brigade' may have been taken out of context. Whoever edited the video at Visions had little respect for the truth and may have taken Glen's comments, which may have referred to events in 1971, and put them in a section dealing with THE LATE 70s!

I think the same thing was done to Linda Pascotto, although when I emailed her, she seemed to not understand the issue, and denied she was taken out of context, or that there was misleading or sloppy editing, both about the 'sari problem' (in the late 70s), and also the ashram issue, that people left because of their love for Indian Tradition. So, I'm not sure what to make of that, except I think Linda isn't really interested in historical accuracy, more in just making Maharaji look good, and to provide excuses for why Maharaji did what he did.

But Glen Whittaker should be held accountable for a couple of other comments, including when he said that Maharaji was 'always' available to answer questions people had. That is a lie, Glen, just a blatant, obvious, lie. Maharaji has been completely unavailable to answer questions, and doesn't even respond to, or even read, his mail from his own followers. So this is crap, and it is surprising that Glen would allow himself to be videotaped while lying in a fashion obvious to anyone who is or ever was a premie.

Tim Gallwey is another story, though. He clearly isn't taken out of context and he lies repeatedly in the video. Not just about the 'Maharaji religion' issue, but elsewhere. This leads me to believe that Gallwey is actually one of the architects of the current cult propaganda, that it was all the 'Indian tradition' problem that caused most of M's followers to leave, or why people felt betrayed and abused by Maharaji when he closed the ashrams, and stuck them with the debts. It's obviously some kind of official dogma in the Masharaji cult these days. Another big lie is that all the 'god' stuff was just projected onto Maharaji by others, by the premies and the Mahatmas, and that he 1) had nothing to do with creating it, and 2)that he didn't play it to the hilt for at least 15 years, all the way to the bank, and that he doesn't to a great degree, continue it to this day.

Regarding George Blodwell, right, he says virtually nothing, now with mostly an American accent. But what I found interesting was that the video used George for the proposition that if you practice meditation you will fall in love with Maharaji, so there will be this strong 'vital' relationship with the master. Not only did Maharaji 'steal his heart,' but his 'cousin' fell in love with Maharji after doing meditation for 8-9 months, like that is what is supposed to happen. That whole section was very weird, and makes it clear that the video was for internal consumption, for propaganda among the premies.

So, it is surprising that the video is for sale to the public on Visions. I'm kind of surprised about that. Doesn't make much PR sense, because it kind of reveals the cult's hand, or could do so, to prospective members (that this isn't just about an internal "experience" but really is a devotional, personality cult).

But then, I don't think the cult thinks it's going to have many new members and just wants to try to stop people leaving in large numbers -- to try to hold on to the premies they already have, and, of course, their donations, and willingness to do "participation" for no pay, through some kind of "feel good" nostalgia, properly reinvented to give plausable (to a cult member) rationalizations that prevent any criticism of their cult leader.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 03:31:33 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: The sad lot in Passages Video
Message:
I thought they all looked sad too, except for Glen who seemed fairly humurous. What I'd like to know is: who is the guy who appears quite often, sitting to the right with a very straight back and something slightly scary and robotic about him? I'm guessing the slow speaking guy must be Tim Gallwey.

Somewhat bizarrely, I've just been given a reading list for this course I'm on, and one of the recommended books is 'the inner game of music' by Gallwey. A must-read?!

With love, Livia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 20:40:22 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: John Hampton?
Message:
I think that's who you might be thinking of. I think he was wearing a red shirt, and was pretty bald, and didn't look too healthy?

John Hampton has always been a PAM and was an Initiator way back.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 11:59:37 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: John Hampton
Message:
I can’t wait to see the Passages Video, because, one of my pleasures in life is hearing John Hampton speak. Even though I don’t agree with his path any longer, I have never in my life met a man with such strength and veracity. I’ve known him almost 30 years. All of our association has been via, about and around Maharaji. It usually was in a PAM-type situation. But not always. I’d often catch him exiting from a closet somewhere having just meditated like a marine. Strong, strong guy. Quiet type, a man of few words. If you think I might be describing Clint Eastwood in his toughest Western, you’re right. That’s exactly the man. An actual friend of Maharaji. I’m sure he admire(d)(s) John just the same way. In fact, I’m quiet sure of it.

I don’t know much about John’s personal or private life. Never did. I knew he was in the ashram for years. I know he escorted Marolyn J. on her “Meet The Beatles” Tour in early 1974, just prior to her marriage to M. Prior to M&K, I believe John was California’s number one RV salesman, and also served his country in the armed forces with honor and dignity during a very difficult period in U.S. history. I don’t know today where he lives, with whom, if he’s married, was married, has kids, had kids. Never knew. I just knew one thing. There was a devotee! There was a model I admired. Silent, strong, focused. Not a chatterbox, airhead, all-thumbs basic fuck-up, like myself. We were raised on opposites sides of this nation, but he could have been from another planet, because I’d never seen such perseverance or dedication. Yet we laughed together. He could see the humor in my point of view, and I delighted in his smile with all the wrinkles around his eyes showing a toughness that I never knew. I never knew what made him tick, unable to relate to such an upbringing and viewpoint. So foreign, yet attractive.

Once night, around late 1974, we went to a medium-security prison about an hour’s drive from Denver up in the mountains in the middle of nowhere to do a presentation about M&K for the prisoners. I’ll never forget the vibe in that room. Pindrop silence and total attention as John spoke for about a half hour, describing his fighting past as well as his present surrender. Very touching. Pain in the prisoners eyes when we had to leave. I was glad I was able to walk out of there with John that night. There wasn’t much talk on the way back to Denver. Like always.

Again, we might have a differing opinion today on what M & K are all about, but I know in my heart it was my great fortune to meet and know one John Hampton. I hope his health is not bad and I hope he retires in peace whenever he might be able to and live out his life on his terms, even should they be linked to a phony. They’re vast friends.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:00:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: bad joke
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:41:32 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oops! Bad joke -- I'd delete if I could [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:39:47 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: John Hampton
Message:
OTS, you should see the Passages Video because John Hampton is not the rugged self he was. But he was quite soft-spoken and gets right tear-eyed at the end, as does Joan Apter, BTW.

My encounters with Hampton were very different,and in different contexts. In Miami, he was the resident initiator prior to my becomming community coordinator there, and the ashram premies I knew felt completely and utterly terrorized by him. One woman in particular, who became a very good friend of mine, was the head of the women's ashram, and was dubious when Hampton ordered her to break the lease on the house because she felt it was inappropriate and that the landlord had been good to them. Hampton said something to the effect that was bullshit and that M didn't abide by those kinds of rules.

Housemum will also have some stories about Hampton being a bit of a terror to rank and file ashram premies. Not because he was malicious, just because he lived with absolute rigidity, no flexibility and expected others to do so as well. This was in the era of meditation marathons, especially on Sunday and Hampton was a militant enforcer of that.

I remember one time in the 1976 'workshop' era, being in a small discussion group with Hampton, who was only in it because he was told Maharaji wanted us to do this, and was an absolutely frustrating person he was to talk try to do anything as a 'group.' Complete, total inability to see anything from anyone else's point of view. Complete non-compromise. I can see how that can be admired, but there is also the other side of the coin.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 12:53:31 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Robotic guy
Message:
Sitting to the right: Ron Geaves? Bald, gray beard, late 50ish? Yes, he did appear quite often. Peter Lee also sat to the right, but didn't appear often at all - long gray hair, big gray mustache, glasses.

Yes, Gallwey is the slow speaking guy, sitting to the left, thinning gray hair, also mid-50ish.

The only other guy sitting to the right that I can think of, other than Glen.

I think you must be thinking of Ron Geaves.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:09:47 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Robotic guy
Message:
Thanks everybody - I think it must be John Hampton, although I wouldn't have recognised him. However, I only ever saw him on stages at big programmes giving satsang and never knew him personally. I don't mean Ron Geaves - I recognised him immediately. Ron was extremely well known in England in the early days. He was one of the very first Western premies. I think he was Sandy Collier's boyfriend originally and went to India with Sandy, Milky (Michael Cole?) and someone else. They met Saph (Mahatma Saphalanand/Brian Kitt) who could have been the first English premie, and he brought them to Maharaji. I remember the first programme I ever went to; Saph was giving satsang there in white robes (hmmm!). I thought he was like an apostle of Jesus and was sure I could see a halo round his head. That was it for me - any doubts I had had before then disappeared and I decided I just HAD to ask for the Knowledge. Where is Saph now? Actually the last I heard, he was somewhat grumpy about everything and living in Devon.

With love, Livia

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:26:01 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Re: Robotic guy
Message:
Hi Livia

Saph doesn't live in Devon anymore,but where he is now I don't know.

He had a big bust up with the'greater than god'in the '80's over a business deal to do with aviation,where he got badly burned by the perfect one.

I heard a few other stories about his doings since then, but as they are potentially libelous I'll have to keep them to myself.

He's crackers,probably always was.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 14:16:53 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Ron and Glenn
Message:
“Do you have some ability to communicate with Ron about that? I think it's important that premies know they can't tell lies on videotape and not have to take responsibility for what they said -- that there are people watching it with a discerning eye on the actual truth. At the minimum, if the cult makes this kind of lying propaganda in the future, they might think twice about being in it. “

No, I am not interested in talking to him.
The last communication I had with Ron was when he phoned after I had posted my conversation with him here. He said that he would like to punch me on the nose. I don’t think that is a basis for any valuable communication. If he has any self respect he will post here.

“ But Glen Whittaker should be held accountable for a couple of other comments, including when he said that Maharaji was 'always' available to answer questions people had. That is a lie, Glen, just a blatant, obvious, lie. Maharaji has been completely unavailable to answer questions, and doesn't even respond to, or even read, his mail from his own followers. So this is crap, and it is surprising that Glen would allow himself to be videotaped while lying in a fashion obvious to anyone who is or ever was a premie. “

I wrote to Glenn in the mid-80s about my concerns with the way EV was treating people(mainly premies). He basically wrote me back a “I’m just doing what Maharaji has told me” letter.. I doubt he gives 2 hoots what he says.

I doubt very much that either Glenn or Ron would post here without direct agya twice from Maharaji.

“So, it is surprising that the video is for sale to the public on Visions. I'm kind of surprised about that. Doesn't make much PR sense, because it kind of reveals the cult's hand, or could do so, to prospective members. But then, I don't think the cult thinks it's going to have many new members and just wants to try to stop people leaving in large numbers -- to try to hold on to the premies they already have, and, of course, their donations, and willingness to do 'participation' for no pay.”

I see your point.

I am still not convinced that those interviews were recent. Most of the people were old premies from THAT background.

Bye for now
Jethro

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:58:09 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring
To: Jethro
Subject: What Ron Geaves didn't mention
Message:
Sometimes Maharaji screws up and stumbles on to his true motivations. I wonder why Ron Geaves didn't mention this in the video:

You know some people don't like rich people. They have this idea or that idea of what it is to be rich. But they really don't know. It's not easy to be rich. It isn't. Once you've made your first million, you need another to protect it. Then you have two million, and you'll need another two million to protect those two million. Then you'll have four million and you'll need another four million to protect those four million, and then you'll have eight million. Of course then you'll need another 8 million to protect those eight million and then you'll have 16 million... it isn't easy, it's not what you think.

Maharaji speaking at Long Beach 1995

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 14:31:50 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Date of Interviews
Message:
Good point, Jethro, you can't tell when the interviews were done. But Ron Geaves looks pretty old and so does Tim Gallwey, probably mid to late 50s. Joan Apter looks 50ish, and Blodwell, who knows, probably had lots of 'work done.'

Everyone else looks middle-aged, but the video doesn't even give their NAMES, and if they don't care to give that much information, they probably don't care to give dates of the interviews.

What did you say about a conversations with Ron that made him upset, and how did he even find out you had posted it here? If you have Ron's address, I would consider sending him your concerns about his comments, even if he doesn't respond. I think there is value in doing that; at least it might make Ron think about the fact that his statements are being seen by ex-premies.

Did Ron actually threaten you?

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 18:23:23 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe it is all in
Message:
the archives. It was dec 99/jan2000 ish.

In short I repeated a conversation I had with him about Jagdeo, EV etc, when we met up at a wedding.

I repeated the conversation here. He phoned me saying that I had betrayed the spirit of the wedding in that I had divulged a private conversation and that he would punch me on the nose if I was in front of him. He also said(ordered) that under no circumstances should I menton his name on the net.
I said that the subject matter(child abuse ) was far too important to be kept secret and that I would welcome him to come and try punch my nose.
I don't have any of his details any more, but a search on the net under his name will probably give you an email. He is a lecturer and is bound to be on the net.

I think cq is(was) in touch with Ron.

All the best

Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 12:49:56 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Not me, Jeth - never met the guy (nt)
Message:
Not me, Jeth - never met the guy (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 14:28:16 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Hey cq
Message:
did you not tell me that you emailed him about Prof Lanes 'academic mistake' and the 106 year old mahatma Ron met India???
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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:39:59 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: huh? Prof who? 106 yr old mahatma? HUH???
Message:
HUH????

Honest Injun - not me, Jethro.

(thinks ... is this a wind-up?)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 17:26:45 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Sorry I must have
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 18:35:35 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Ron Geaves
Message:
Thanks Jethro, that helps explain it. What did Ron tell you about Jagdeo? Didn't he say something about they were doing some kind of big investigation or something? Also, did he say WHY he didn't want his name mentioned on the internet? Maybe he doesn't want to be associated with M on the internet, but if he is out making videos about M that are for SALE on the internet, that kind of undermines that issue.

Someone posted his website that has an email address on it. I could send him an email asking him to comment, but I never met the guy and I assume he has no idea who I am. But I do think it's appropriate for the questions to be asked of him, first of all for his own statements, and secondly for appearing in a video with so many gross distortions of the truth. He should be asked about that, I guess I can do it, but if somebody knew him, it might make is smoother.

As you can see, I for one, do not intend to let those comments people like Geaves made, as well as the dishonest editing in that video, go without scrutiny on the internet. I really do take it personally, because Ron is describing me as someone who 'preferred to say in the box' and that's just utter bullshit, and I resent it.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 18:53:57 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Ron Geaves
Message:
I think his main concern was that his name was associated with this site because m may hear about it. He didn't explicitely say that, that is my own assumption from knowing him for so many years.

I really don't like him and anyway I'm sure he wouldn't respond to a manmut like me. However he may very well respond to someone else.

Jethro

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:53:38 (EST)
From: Occasional Poster
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Date of Interviews, Ron Geaves etc
Message:
If you have Ron's address, I would consider sending him your concerns about his comments, even if he doesn't respond. I think there is value in doing that; at least it might make Ron think about the fact that his statements are being seen by ex-premies.
--

here you go - simple Google search
[ Ron Geaves personal page ]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 05:32:41 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Occasional Poster
Subject: Ron's forthcoming publications ...
Message:
are set out by Joe in his post below.. which i hadnt read until I posted this one.. oops

Geaves, R.A (June 20-23rd 2002) 'From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital: an Exploration of change and adaptation, Centre for the Studies on New Religions, The 2002 International Conference Minority Religions, Social Change, and freedom of Conscience, University of Utah: Salt Lake City
Geaves, R.A. (April 2002) 'From Totapuri to Maharaji: Reflections on a Lineage (parampara)', Cambridge

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:06:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: I emailed him
Message:
Hi Ron,

As an ex-premie with an active interest in Maharaji I noticed the two folowing papers you plan to present:

Geaves, R.A (June 20-23rd 2002) 'From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital: an Exploration of change and adaptation, Centre for the Studies on New Religions, The 2002 International Conference Minority Religions, Social Change, and freedom of Conscience, University of Utah: Salt Lake City

Geaves, R.A. (April 2002) 'From Totapuri to Maharaji: Reflections on a Lineage (parampara)', Cambridge

Are you aware of the extensive commentary on both issues that's on the ex-premie site? Here's a link to a page that introduces those discussions:

http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/indian.htm

There's also lots and lots of interesting analysis and anecdotal material elsewhere on ex-premie.org (EPO) as well as the related ex-premie forums.

Are you interested in any sort of dialogue on these issues? How about an advance copy of your work(s) in progress for some informed feedback and criticism? This could be interesting, don't you think? Maharaji himself seems to have never encouraged, let alone participated in, these discussions. Indeed, the whole idea of honest, uncensored reflection seems entirely anethmatic to his 'leadership style'. But if you're nonetheless willing to consider these topics with academic thoroughness and intellectual rigour, I applaud you. Let's talk.

Sincerely,

Jim Heller

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:10:15 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Occasional Poster
Subject: Ron Geaves
Message:
I note that Dr. Geaves is going to give a presentation in Utah (too bad he will miss the Winter Olympics) on the following subject:

Geaves, R.A (June 20-23rd 2002) 'From Divine Light Mission to Elan Vital: an Exploration of change and adaptation, Centre for the Studies on New Religions, The 2002 International Conference Minority Religions, Social Change, and freedom of Conscience, University of Utah: Salt Lake City

I wonder if perhaps some ex-premies should attend this presentation, just to see how Dr. Geaves presents the historical facts and how he thinks Elan Vital 'changed and adapted' from Divine Light Mission. Should be fascinating. Funny though, it seems he thinks Elan Vital is a 'new religion,' not exactly kosher to say that, I wouldn't think, especially since Ron is emphatic in the video that Maharaji said FROM DAY ONE, that he didn't want to start a religion, new or old.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 00:19:14 (EST)
From: Jim S.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Joe:I never got my Passages copy..nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 13:11:05 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Jim S.
Subject: Please email me.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 19:56:22 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: a new religion
Message:
Funny though, it seems he thinks Elan Vital is a 'new religion,' not exactly kosher to say that, I wouldn't think.

I'd say that would be listened to sympathetically in the land of the Mormons. Now there's a cult which has survived oppression & prospered to become.....what I don't know.

The thing that interests me is this. Is Dr.Geaves, in putting forward his case for freedom of conscience, irrespective of the bullshit on which it is based,trying to ally his failing cause with that of a much more successful one(also based on pure bullshit).

Persecution these days isn't lynch mobs,it can just be your tone of voice.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:26:01 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Another point about Hindu trappings...
Message:
Joe,

It just occurred to be that when Maharaji first starting ''making'' western initiators, didn't he give them Hindi names?

I know Bill Patterson had one and others too, though I don't remember them.

Am I wrong here, just tell me.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 18:15:20 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: i remember the names
Message:
Ira Woods was renamed Mahatma GuruPujanand
Bill Patterson was renamed Mahatma SatChitAnand

Arthur Brigham was renamed Mahatma ?ParamPremanand[? correction here?]
Kathy Sullivan was renamed Pranam Bai

and we all stumbled around feeling goofy because we had called them by their born names from day one, and no one could get used to trying to use their Mahatma names seriously, so maybe 18 months later, Maharaji gave up on that and reverted to calling them by their original names.
[cut to a 'spew coffee' spit-take, as the impulse to guffaw overcomes control of a just-taken mouthful of hot beverage]

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:38:46 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Western Initiators
Message:
No, you're right. I think the first in the States was in 1976 and they were given, very funny, Hindi names. This was all part of Maharji's valiant attempt to rid us of the Hindu Traditions.

Bill Patterson was Mahatma Satchitanand

Ira Woods (I LOVE THIS), was Mahatma Gurupujanand

I think Kathy Sullivan was 'Pranam Bai.'

I can't remember Arthur Brigham's name, but it should have been 'Mahatma Pompousassanand.' :) The man was insufferable.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 00:02:25 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog =)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What happened to Bill Patterson? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 09:47:14 (EST)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog =)
Subject: He is an Ex-premie ;) NT
Message:
n
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 19:48:45 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Arthur Brigham
Message:
Didn't poor Arthur become a Heroin addict?

Maybe the shock of what m was about was too much too bear.

I heard that he is/was living in Northern Queensland Australia with Naomi and that they were in bad shape. he had done time in jail.

Any clarification?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 03:19:27 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Arthur Brigham
Message:
If this is true Bai Ji, wouldn't it qualify for a 'darkest hour' and a personal visit from none other than the one who promised not to leave us in such a dark hour? Just what is a 'darkest hour' because I certainly had mine, and all the others' who've posted theirs, and yet I've yet to hear him coming to anyone's aid, except maybe the pie smashing mahatama and Jugdeo.
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:58:02 (EST)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Western Initiators
Message:
Hi Joe

Arthur Brigham's Hindi name was Param Premanand. I spent a little time with him in France and Switzerland and took him for a trip up a Swiss Alp, which was a terrific day out. I have to admit that I quite liked him at the time, although I could never work out whether he was being serious when he played the guitar at public programmes. His style was, shall we say, erratic. Haven't seen or heard of him since the mid to late 70's.

Nick

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 14:22:11 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Param Premanand
Message:
Wow, that's right. I had forgotten that name.

Arthur was basically a nice guy, but he could be super heavy and he was very uptight. I think he toured mostly in the States and so we had to put up with him.

My favorite story was one time in Milwaukee, Arthur was the featured satsang-giver, being the touring Mahatma in town. He was sitting up in front of the satsang hall, and somebody handed him a baby to hold. He looked very uncomfortable, and then, seconds later, the baby peed all over him. You should have heard the shreaks. You would have thought Ru Paul was in town!

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:44:22 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Western Initiators
Message:
Thanks Joe. I knew it. And Maharaji named them.

I couldn't remember the names, but now I do, especially the ones you mentioned.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:31:26 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Smoking Gun 2 (an underestimate)
Message:
So it was Maharaji Himself who gave these Westerners Hindi names then?

Hah!

Must have been the ashramers fault.

;)

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:07:57 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I suppose he was pandering
Message:
Like that kid that was born at a festival, and when the parents asked M-ji to name their child, he named it Satganga. River of satsang.

'Oh, I did it because YOU wanted it. But it's all YOUR fault.'

Yeah, right. Good catch, cq.

--f

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:31:33 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: WE called Marolyn Durga Ji - yeah right
Message:
And, if he got rid of western trappings, why does he still call himself Maharaji instead of something simple like Reverend Rawat?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 07:35:30 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: the simplest facts are sometime the least obvious!
Message:
AND there's the fact that he portays himself as a so-called 'Master'.

The term 'Master' may be used in certain situations in the West (e.g. 'Master Mason'), but it's definitely the Eastern spin on the word that M uses.

It's very much a pick and mix affair - but you can be sure of one thing - he's the only one who gets to do the picking!

And, while we're at it, meditation and the Knowledge techniques themselves - is he suggesting that THEY aren't part of the Hindu heritage?

:)

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:02:09 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Great point Pat
Message:
And quite an OBVIOUS one at that now that you mention it. If he was so all fired up against the eastern influence he sure does not reflect that commitment in his reference to himself as maharaji.

The buck stops right there, everyone else is supposed to change but him as usual. Oh yeah he dropped the guru part, not because of the eastern thing but because of the loaded connatation attached to the term and I remember him saying so.

Eastern trappings my ass, the guru thing had lost it's marketing edge by the time he gave it up and he knew it. The term was more of a liability to him than an asset and he ditched it for his self serving purposes only.

Couldn't seem to bear to part with the exalted term and Ego trip of himself as maharaji though.

No matter that the inference is as eastern as it gets

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:37:59 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Good point, Pat...
Message:
Nobody is supposed to refer to her as Durga Ji, but Maharaji for him is still quite all right.

Freak.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:37:41 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Another point about Hindu trappings...
Message:
you are rigth about that, Arthur Brigham , had a hindu name also
but ,i do not remember what it was ,, Perhaps someone here does.?

Ulf

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:41:05 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: I loved Mohani Bai and Gitanandji ......
Message:
but both run away from Maha a long, long time ago. Mohani Bai had married the ashram secretary and now, so far I know, she does healing sessions, singing healing mantras etc. I remember when she stopped wearing a sari. She felt really uncomfortable in her westerncostume.
For us she was a elder sister but her style was quiete authoritic, that's how it is in a cult anyway.

those were the days........ciao .....wolfie

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:37:30 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Re: I loved Mohani Bai and Gitanandji ......
Message:
Mohani Bai gave me K, shortly before the compulsory haircuts & long waits came in, when the emphasis was on realizing the Divinity within. The K selection process was pretty chaotic,& I now think she chose people for a session on the basis of having seen their faces fairly regularly at satsang. She pointed vaguely in my direction during one such selection,but I knew I wasn't the recipient.

Nevertheless, I lied & claimed I was to her face. I'm sure she knew I was lying, but didn't really care(I sensed this at the time). I didn't care either because it was an experiment for me....one which if I had known at the time would take 28 yrs to reach its conclusion....well.

Gitanand came later, how can you say you loved the guy:nasty,violent,frighteningly fanatical,puritanical,& bursting with youthful skinhead energy. What a piece of work he was.

I know this is an uncorroborated rumour,because I didn't see it with my own eyes,but isn't he the guy that killed the cat?

I'm beginning to think that one's initial impressions of what this cult was all about coloured every future expectation. Remember the 'ripples spreading out to all mankind' type satsang.

Later on it was , 'surrender to the lotus feet of satgurudev'.

None of these changes of emphasis were ever discussed or explained,it was just assumed that one went along with the party line(the vibe).

If instead of the stone of K dropping silently into the water,you've got a fat oaf splashing about & bobbing up & down,the ripples get all fucked up & run backwards & forwards into themselves.

I wish Mohani Bai well,she wore white saris so she was a widow,is that right. Certainly a great deal younger then than I am now. Hitched her wagon to a new life away from living death in India,& split when the time was right. That's where her authority came from......herself.

Gitanand.............................

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 03:55:09 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: my love was blind, I did't care
Message:
Hi PatD,

in retrospect this all was crazy and sure Mohani Bai was on a power trip and Gitanand was a sort of fanatic the worst one was Fakiranandad that time, or I'm wrong? But in this period of my life I was pretty crazy too, I was ready to go anywhere and I thought to be crazy for god or any kind is the best thing I can do, better than getting involved into throwing bombs or setting fire to warehouses.
My state of mind at this time was very freaky and to be in the company of those crazy ones at least was a home for me at this time.

When I was young,I once killed a cat too, I can not do it today.
I agree that we were fooled and we fooled ourselves but this mechanics are quite complex and even though I now I was stupid to give credit to those kind of people. I don't blame myself for being open to those who once fooled me. I would say I was not open enough because then I would have seen faster that it is a cult.

.........ciao ..wolfie .....what was was .....I can not make it unhappen in retropect I have to live with it

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:26:11 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: wolfie, your honesty ...
Message:
... is always a breath of fresh air, and reminds me of my own checked past. Sometimes I am glad that I can remember things I am not proud of, that make me squirm to think of them. I'll never have to worry about thinking that I am better than other people as long as I can see the whole picture, the goods AND the bads and the 'oh well's.'

I could see the poor cat, and I could see the poor wolfie. As a small child I killed a little water animal. I will never forget it. I was very young and my aunt and uncle had moved to a subdivision in the country. We were happily at the edge of the water catching tiny soft toads. I really loved one of them, and begged to take it home.

When my mother told me no, it hurt and angered me. My mother told me to let the little creature go free. I was so angry I let it go and stepped on it and squished it with my shoe. I know that one of the emotions was possession. Since I could not possess it, I took its life. A very powerful lesson it was. I actually remember it as if I was the creature's soul, looking up at this huge child with a very serious, angry face, wiping some smoosh off her shoe in the grass.

I remember that there was a bumpersticker that said,

'If you love something, let it go.
If it doesn't come back
hunt it down and kill it.'

A man who tortured and murdered many people in a bunker in the country in Wilseyville, California (Lake County) had that bumpersticker on his car.

Trying to possess any of us was a really bad idea. I think it's ruined Rawat.

I can sure get morose, can't I!

--f

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:24:00 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: EV's new registration system
Message:
It looks like the old SmartCard is not good enough these days anymore.

If you're invited to attend a meeting (like the meetings with Yoram Weisz that are scheduled these days in France), they give you a special code that can be used only one time.

Like:

1234 123 1234 (your personal code)
code abc (event's code)

I guess they live in a bad film these days ....

(one of my moles told me)

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 19:19:32 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This is a great scoop JM
Message:
Wow! This is really going to get the premies whispering.

I'm sure some will welcome the lull in their boring cult activities but other premsters will start demanding answers and they will compare notes and they will discuss it.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:30:04 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Sign of the times...
Message:
Thanks, J-M, that's very interesting.

I think this reflects that fact that people are leaving the cult in droves, even the rich guys that Yoram would talk to and hit up for money.

So, a Smartcard doesn't work because you could get one, be issued one as a cultmember in good standing, and then become an ex-premie the next day. Heaven forbid that person would show up and then blab about what Yoram is saying to people.

So, in line with that kind of obsessive paranoia, entrance privileges have to expire very soon, so that people can be scrutinized yet again, determined to be adequatly indoctrinated and with the program before being let in to the next 'candid' event.

Amazing that the cult is so fucking paranoid. No wonder everyone is leaving.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:40:41 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Sign of the times...
Message:
Yes, and you must sign in blood a document saying you won't ask any questions of the Master, either.

Secret passwords! Sheesh. What is it that Yoram is saying, anyway? Never fear EV. Someone will get in or someone will pass along a report to the forum anyway.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 07:15:14 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Sign of the times...
Message:
When maharaji first made 'initiators' (late 70s), he made them sign a resignation form when he recruited them so that he could sack them whenever he wanted. This is what I was told by a couple of initiators at the time.

Any former initiator care to comment??

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:16:22 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Question Marianne...
Message:
Hi Marianne,

How are you?

My question is this: didn't Jim Jones Temple require ID cards to enter worship services? Did it escalate as the press got onto him?

Obviously, once they got to Guyana, they couldn't leave, but security was everywhere for both going in and out. Am I correct?

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 18:06:58 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Reply
Message:
Hi Cynthia. I am fine but very busy. There was an execution here last week.

I'll have to poke around about the PT identification cards and extent of security at worship services.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:27:56 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Bringing an old post up
Message:
This post I made about the Michael Nouri/M secret video/DVD says a bit about what an outsider would think of much of their clandestine activities, incuding what transpires at 'events,' I think. Just IMO, of course.

His deep juju only works on premies.

--f

Subject: And methinkest they have ...
Message:

... something to hide. Why the secrecy if it's true, if it's an accurate presentation of the facts?

But of course, those articles that came out in the press early on in the 70s about Maharaji, some of which are on EPO, document the statements he was making back in those days. I think that anyone outside the cult would see this video/DVD as brainwashing/whitewashing and revisionism at its worst. There is enough public documentation about how Maharaji presented himself to defeat any arguments they could put forth in the video/DVD. Although I haven't seen it I've heard enough about it to surmise that it is only Maharaji's beligerent demeanor, and the fact that he is emphatically correcting people that are subservient to him, that gives that video/DVD any effect, and that effect is on premies only.

Anyone else with 2 cents worth of brains sees it the way we do. Blatant lies to brainwashed sheep. (How sad. Some of them are/were my friends.)

And that IS something to hide.

Bests,

Francesca

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:37:21 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Exactly the case
Message:
Anyone else with 2 cents worth of brains sees it the way we do. Blatant lies to brainwashed sheep.

My sentiments exactly, Francesca very well put, One has to have the wool pulled over their eyes to avoid seeing the obvious manipulation of the facts and history here.

The shit is hitting the fan and of course the cult and m are in denial about that. The standard cult line on theses issues are that m is working from a much higher authority commanding some special power sanctioned by the entire Universe.

A power no less than god almighty himself at his disposal so he can do what ever he pleases in the minds of his deluded.

In reality he is right on the same par with some dysfuntional irresponsible drunk or addict making up whatever story and excuse he can to keep the sorry racket he is running going.

Some higher power indeed, Jim Beam

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:45:50 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Remy Martin and Courvoisie [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:41:25 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: If he wasn't so arrogant
Message:
... he could probably rope in the New Age, by most New Agers would probably see through that puffy-eyed stare and wouldn't like getting yelled at an Lorded over, and soon find out that he has other ways of getting high.

--f

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 07:30:00 (EST)
From: Suedoula
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: EV's new registration system
Message:
For an organization that works so hard and professes to actually want to attract new members, they work pretty hard at keeping them out. Heaven forbid that anyone who hasn't already been indoctrinated manage to make it into one of these affairs and see what really goes on.

Maybe they are concerned that all the 'divinity' at one of their events will cause outsiders heads to explode. Oh, that's right -- he isn't divine, maybe the smell of BS in the morning will drive them away.

Best,
Susan

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:01:36 (EST)
From: The Maharaji of Malibu
Email: None
To: Suedoula
Subject: will eventually go Rave Style
Message:
you know-everyone who is supposed to will be given a phone number to call at a certain time to find out where the cult action is happening
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:44:54 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The noose of secrecy tightens more
Message:
The former Saviour of the weary and the weak now runs a Scientology-type cult for rich yuppies with a have a nice day message.

Oh, it's soooo cool. Aren't the new codes just precious? All that's missing is the secret handshake.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:28:50 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: What they really need is.....
Message:
For the one time charge of $399, Dr John Horton, will surgically implant a smart chip, subcutaneously, smack dab at the location of your third eye. Wink, wink, you get two benefits for the price of one!

Continued reminder and perhaps constant experience of the light technique, realize Knowledge now my folks.

Easy access into and out of programs. After all, with all the Knowledge realization you are about to experience from the embedded smart chip, we understand you might get just a tad spaced out. Hard to remember those passwords while in God consciousness you know, and we do understand!

And upgrades to the smart chip implant will be made available. For an additional $499 you can have an inner ear implant! Listen to the celestial music of Knowleadge 24/7!

Palate implants, and for those of you who have really mastered the nectar techique, pharyngeal implants are in development now! We are hoping to network with the breath chip on this one. But make no mistake, by his grace, we will do it! We will realize knowledge, at least for those of you who 'give their all!'

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:32:13 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: And for $10,000 a month
Message:
You will be enrolled in a long distance PAM program, wherein Maharaji will use his special button. From a long distance he can either get the chip to pleasantly buzz in your forehead, reminding you of 'that grace' and 'that place,' or he can whisper special messages in your inner ear.

For $1,000 a month you can just get the pleasant buzz once a week.

LOLs

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 10:38:47 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: LoL, Tonette [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 01:24:55 (EST)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: there we go again
Message:
shit.

I've been resurected from my slummer by a strange e-mail by a rather very confused person.

This person has been refused k by some dickhead initiator [is that what they are called?] and has come across epo by accedent. He found out that the techniques are revealead [oh oh] by jean michele ji or who ever and that he has been trying to pratice them.

Now as you know or don't know am really to old and gray to explain to this person what is what. Actually am not sure what to tell this character like. One one hand I don't know what to say. I mean do the techniques work? Is it safe to practice them? and a million other things.

Well as you all know or don't know, I've been to Nirvana a couple of times, has an exchange of certain words with the keeper of the gate and decided that I want to continue on the path that allah has planned for and stay away from this infidel infested place. So someone please get this fellow off my back, please plaese. Am not sure if he knows about the forum, but I will send him here and you guys can lead him on the straight and narrow. What do you say, a deal?

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:08:46 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: You too?
Message:
I've had a couple of emails recently from premies (?) who found my poems on the web. One asked why I hated the EV thing so much; the other said simply your poems touched me. I replied to each politely, giving the url for epo, and for this forum.

It looks as if there's a lot of cult victims finding stuff on-line that helps them to see they've been suckered. Let's keep up the good work!

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:22:54 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: fine by me.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 05:05:28 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I knew I can trust you
Message:
I gave him the url to this place. I hope he leaves me alone. I guess I can go back to the path that allah has layed for me.
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 00:16:05 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Pics from 1969, 1970, 2002
Message:
East Portal of Wawona Tunnel, Yosemite, June 30, 1969

At the office, Dec, 1970, Toronto

At the office, Feb, 2002, Minneapolis

(PatC or Gerry: please delete this. Will try again another time.) (How to info needed)
[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 09:55:41 (EST)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: I remember your face :)
Message:
Thanks for sharing your photos with us.

best regards,
silvia

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 20:02:57 (EST)
From: PhotoGuy
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Links to photos
Message:
East Portal of Wawona Tunnel, Yosemite, June 30, 1969

At the office, Dec, 1970, Toronto

At the office, Feb, 2002, Minneapolis


---

The photos are here. Copy and paste URLs to your browser.
Love the red double breasted blazer and 1970's Beatle look, Steve.

http://64.45.46.159/photo/SMyosemite69.jpg

http://64.45.46.159/photo/SMToronto70.jpg

http://64.45.46.159/photo/SMwork02.jpg
[ Stevie Ji in Yoesemite 1969 ]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 07:04:39 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: PhotoGuy
Subject: Photo 3: At work, Mpls, 2002
Message:
nt
[ Graphic Link ]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:49:10 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Nice touch, to be at a computer...
Message:
While the rest of us are at our computers looking at your picture.

Thanks, if I had a scanner I send some of me. But first I have to find my box of photos (not the m box)!

Love,
Cynthia, who moved six months ago and still have boxes jammed in closets

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 07:00:15 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: PhotoGuy
Subject: Photo 2: at the office, Toronto, 1970
Message:
nt
[ Graphic Link ]
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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 05:12:51 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: You're so vain
Message:
But aren't we all?

Nyah nyah nyah nyah. I saw Stevie's pics before anyone did by email. Yes, he's gorgeous just like all of the ex-premies I've ever seen.

It was all you guys' fault that I joined the cult in the first place. If you hadn't been so goddam sweet I'd wouldn't have given the guru a second thought.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 18:12:03 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Red, doublebreasted
Message:
Wow. Nice duds. I'm sure people could hear you coming a mile before you got there! I can't believe people are bringing those 70s styles back!
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:10:34 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Uploading Pictures
Message:
Steve,

The pictures you want to display must first be uploaded to a website, any website. Right now, they are on your hard drive only, and not on a website where you could link to them using the forum picture linking feature.

I hope this is clear: when I right click on your attempted picture, and look in 'properties' I see the pathway to the picture which is in a file on your c drive. You can't link images directly from your computer to the forum. The pictures must already exist some where on the web. OK?

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:21:37 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Uploading Pictures
Message:
Thanks, Gerry. I thought that might be the problem.
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:11:31 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Your url is imcomplete
Message:
Just type out the whole url for me and I'll look and see what's the problem. You can do it by email if you want but sometimes explaining the solution on the forum helps others to post links too.
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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 23:00:44 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Living with our differences
Message:
Much has been shared here and argued over at various times about the different personalities and communication styles and opinions posted on this forum.

Learning to deal with these different dynamics is much easier when one realizes that no matter what our differences there is one common connection that keeps us coming here. We were all affected by the cult, either in it or close to someone who was, and we now need to examine and dispell the myth of it all and move on with our lives.

No matter how we percieve or characterize each other keeping in mind that we are all fighting the same battle helps us to deal with the personal conflicts that sometimes flare up along the way with each other.

It would be foolish to say that confrontations are ever going to disappear entirely, and they shouldn't, handling adversity constructively can provide a Quantum leap of understanding and greatly increase the speed of the exit process.

Dealing with others differences can make a big difference in us. Life is not always a bed of roses and if we learn how to grow from altercation and challenge it can be one of the most useful lessons we have for moving forward in life.

Whenever we break through the little box that we have surrounded ourselves in we grow, the cult to me represented one big box that I have now managed to break out of. Through the years of conditioning many of us spent in the cult we were programmed to go along with the crowd and not rock the boat.

It is a miracle that any of us grew through the restrained and limited cult consciousness or maintained enough of an independent streak to break away from it.

Strong personalities challenge and test our mettle and make us uncomfortable because they challenge our resources to think for ourselves again.

By nature many premies were and are passive, loving, nuturing types and the conditions of the cult fostered that demeaner even more. This mindset is what keeps them and kept us for so long from breaking out of the box and becoming ex-premies.

Along the way we lost our inquisitive and inquiring nature, gave it up in fact to tow the cult line.

So by instilled nature it is difficult to deal with adversity and differences and challenges of our positions, Because for so long we avoided challenge in our way of thinking and retreated into the warm fuzzy confines of the cult for each others comfort and support.

We no longer had full possession of the very sort of inquiring and curious instincts that led us to look into the cult and m in the first place.

These are valuable tools necessary for mature adult development which the cult convinced us were bad, evil, to be avoided. Any question against the standard cult party line was evidence that one was in their mind, a very disturbing and dark place to be.

Then we find ourselves at a time in life when we are confronted with a different possibility a different reality, maybe we came to our own realizations maybe we find EPO or the Forum as I did.

We come to a point of reckoning, but we show up with the same warm fuzzy expectations of the cult mentality, and this is where many stubb their toes, get their feelings hurt and cry foul play.

When we jump out of the box into the real world all is fine until we realize that everyone out here is not the same. The same conditions we accepted in the cult do not apply anymore. There are bad people, mean people, difficult people at least we characterize them as such anyway.

Taking the step to seeing past the differences in personalities and styles to recognizing the similarity of purpose is a crucial stage in the exiting process. It works both ways if there is a sincere effort in progress.

I have to admit that my first wake up call was a tough one when I had to rise to the occasion and jump out of my little warm and fuzzy box and meet the challengers head on and defend my position of cult apologist which was where I was coming from at the time of my first post.

I got encouragement, but I also met a fair amount of challenge and I really got all knotted up over that part for a while.

My first impulse was flight, run back to the safety of the cult, but then something else I don't know what it was, maybe it was because I felt so uncomfortable and hurt over what was said to me, I stayed to fight it out and defend or redeem my cozy little neatly boxed up relationship with M the cult and myself.

And am I glad that I stayed, because even though they lowered the boom on me, I benefited from it. They took an ax and hammer to my box and it was not just one person, there were many who did a number prying the lid open and pulling me out of it.

I was presented with facts, documented information and a lot of uncomfortable truths which finally made it possible for me to examine my position honestly and for the first time see the box and then expand my perspective beyond the box.

Once I saw that there was something outside of the box, I wasted no time in going for it, embracing freedom wholeheartedly and dancing as free as fast and as far as I could away from the clutches of the cult and M.

Today I celebrate and acknowledge everyones differences, for without them I wouldn't have stood a chance on my own to break free. If I had nothing more to rely on than a likeminded warm fuzzy group of similar thinking folks I might as well stay in the cult.

No I am not here to find solice and agreement, I am here now to reclaim my personal freedom and live beyond the pathetic excuse for truth that was spoon fed to me for so many years.

I keep coming back here to hopefully set an example for others to see and relate to if they care to do the same. Whether or not someone likes me and accepts me here is secondary.

I have found intellegent integrity here from many varied and different people and sources and they do not always have to be mirror images of my own realizations to have integrity of purpose and value.

Learning to live with my own restored integrity is not always a comfortable experience, but it is by far the most rewarding, it is a great journey of growth made possible by the path paved before me by others who have already walked it.

I am glad they were different from me, their personalities, their viewpoints, their opinions their communication styles, because all of their differences are what have made the one big difference for me in who I am today.

A better adjusted, more developed much happier and self assured person free from the confines of the cult now living beyond the box formally known as the universe.

Yaaaaah Hoooooo

Brian now living in a brand new box with no cockroaches

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 22:51:46 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: ***A REAL Keeper***
Message:
Hi Brian,

I really liked your post. It is so thought out. Not only is this really important for new people to acknowledge premie differences, but it also serves to remind people who have been synchronized for decades that there is no NEW way to be. Synchronization SUCKS!

I hate group think! I hated it as a premie. And I dispise it as an ex.

If you co-incidentatlly think like others, fine. But it is important for every person to follow their own heart. One has to learn to listen to their own heart, and not to the minds of others.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 22:47:56 (EST)
From: ChrisP
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: VERY nice post, Brian, thank you (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 20:34:46 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: Living with our differences
Message:
A wonderful essay, Brian. I especially liked this...

Once I saw that there was something outside of the box, I wasted no time in going for it, embracing freedom wholeheartedly and dancing as free as fast and as far as I could away from the clutches of the cult and M.

It was only back in December I stumbled upon the facts and realizing I was dupped all those years, I want to waste no time in reclaiming my life. It is a mixture of theological confusion, some fear, but increasingly, excitement at what my life will be like as the cult shell breaks away.

Thanks!

Anandaji

P.S. You misspelled intelligent. ;-)

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 17:52:34 (EST)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Well said, and heartfelt.
Message:
Fence sitters will be moved and motivated to introspect about their fear and resistance to an awakened life. Real life is a strong teacher, a bracing antidote to magical and sentimental cultish claptrap gumming up one's awareness.

Hallelujah indeed.

Great work, Brian. I hope those who have the 'ears to hear' will hear and think, look closely and feel what their intuition has probably been screaming at them for decades: 'There is infinitely more to life than what I've gotten comfortable 'realizing' about THAT 'thatness''.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:38:33 (EST)
From: Ed
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: The real 'Declaration of Independence' !!!
Message:
Bravo Brian !!! I've never heard it spoken any better. In my opinion, your words are truly a piece of history that will live forever in the life of this ex-premie.
Thank You !
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 15:57:14 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Thanks everyone
Message:
For your responses and your assistance in helping me discern the difference between a toe and a tow.

Brian no longer into kissing toes

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 10:44:11 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: I totally disagree
Message:
What absolute rubbish you talk Brian!
Just kidding, I just wanted to demonstrate that I don't go with the crowd!!
Did your hackles rise for a moment though?
Great post!
Love Kelly
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 10:52:44 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Excellent Post & Thanks
Message:
Because your posts have assisted me in my exiting, and I look forward to reading them, as well as those from some of my other favorite posters. What a fabulous eclectic bunch.

My only remaining question: Is it TOE the line or TOW the line, I've seen it both ways this morning. [I believe it's the former.] Thanks, Brian.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:06:39 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Toe the line
Message:
Hi OTS:

It's toe the line. That phrase comes from early pugilism, when two fighters stood in place and duked it out...no moving around like in boxing. After a 30 second break, the two parties would return to center ring and each would have to line up their toes on the line drawn on the floor, hence 'toe' the line.

Hope you're well, OTS.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 20:13:41 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: Toe the line
Message:
Isn't that M's main job? Sit in a comfy chair, listen to music and toe the darshan line as it goes by. I guess putting it that way, he really does need all those toys.
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:30:06 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Thanks Barbara...
Message:
I was wondering about that too.

I would have thought it was tow the line, as in: '' my car's in a ditch full of wet snow, will ya tow the line so I can this beast on the road? LOL

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:05:18 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Just perfect, Brian. Thank you. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 00:45:14 (EST)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: BEST of BEST, Brian! (nt) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 23:50:10 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Brian, the best thing you say is . . .
Message:
. . . all of it!

Someone's needed to say that for a long time. I've tried many times to be the mediator or play UN to the sandbox squabbles but you've cut through all of that. It is in recognizing our differences that makes us all the more free.

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 23:39:23 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Best of the Best of the Best! Wow!
Message:
Incredible post, Brian!

Truly magnificent stuff!

Wow!

Your post is by far the greatest proof of the benefits that lie waiting for those patient souls who embrace their exiting process with courage, calmness, compassion, optimism in life's capacity to liberate, and the humility to accept all the blessings that come their way.

Two men looked out from prison bars.
One saw mud, the other saw stars.

Those who want peace, find it. Those who want war, find it.
Truly fortunate indeed are those who want peace.

This is going into my archives for sure so that my heart can bask in the sunshine of its glory anytime it gets weary of the darkness.

Thank you for a magnificent job, Brian.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:36:10 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: put it on the masthead!
Message:
I think this ought to be framed on the forum masthead as a sober and honest preface to anyone who may enter, still carrying the cult induced illusion that everything has to be warm fuzzies and zero conflict, going along to get along , and stifling critical dissent for the sake of 'keeping the peace', 'moving on','having That Experience' or just plain escapism.
This, more than anything i ever read here, prepares guests and seekers for what follows, once they enter.
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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 22:55:05 (EST)
From: PatC - read before embarking on
Email: None
To: All
Subject: two threads below-they've been spammed
Message:
This is the relevant link that Deborah wanted to draw attention to before getting side-swiped by a spammer.

I'm leaving the threads till Gerry decides to delete them as I want to give him and the amateur IT sleuths on the forum a chance to trace the spammer.

PatC, acting FA but not over-reacting.
[ CAC Threat to Dettmers? ]

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 10:37:02 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC - read before embarking on
Subject: Deb, I'm so glad you linked the Dettmers Threat...
Message:
I read it yesterday before all hell broke loose.

Hope you're okay. What a bunch of, oh, whatevers!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 02:43:52 (EST)
From: Francesca :)
Email: None
To: PatC - read before embarking on
Subject: Hang in there, Deb
Message:
We should leave their posts up for a while to show everyone what deranged premies sound like.
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:49:15 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: netguest42@yahoo.com
To: Francesca :)
Subject: Touched a real nerve did you Deborah?
Message:
Wow, they really, really, really did not the subject of Dettmers and the threat he received linked in one way, shape or form to the CAC attacks. Funny isn't it? Why is that? You don't have to answer, I have already made my conclusion.

I get the take that it was actually two premies, posting from two IP addresses but coordinated with each other. Could be wrong.

I'm glad you brought this subject up, Dettmer's threat and the CAC attacks/website. With all the new posters here they have to have some understanding of what Maharaji's cult is really capable of.

Illustrates how desperate the cult is. This forum and EPO are real cogs in their wheel of continuing the lie. Otherwise, why would they bother? Over and over and over again.

You're okay from that, right Deborah?

I found it quite unsettling.

Love,
Tonette

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 23:21:32 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Thanks Cynth, Fran, Tonette, & Lookie [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 23:25:39 (EST)
From: Lookie Lou
Email: None
To: PatC - read before embarking on
Subject: I saw the whole thing
Message:
Deb leaves a simple but POTENT post on the board, and they come out in full force.

Sounds like Roupell and Catweasel cannot quench their Deb obsession.

Meditation or medication wore off, I guess.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:48:43 (EST)
From: Grey Poupell :(
Email: None
To: Lookie Lou
Subject: Stop it, you peasant swine!
Message:
I just had lunch with the Earl of Sandwich the other day, and we were remarking how wonderful it is that Rawat has raised the price of being a PAM and is commencing to purge his organization and his coterie of groupies and hangers-on of lower class vermin.

It is the grace of the Lardass feet that I have so much money that Rawat will talk to me and let me be in small circles of no more than 8 around him. Oh bliss. And then I have to put up with you lot.

Oh the peace and love. I'll do it for you, my Captain!

GP

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 18:06:35 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Grey Poupell :(
Subject: Grey, you're so wicked
Message:
And next time you see Earl of Sandwich, have him try some your condiment recipe, you know, the one made from mustard seeds. He could put it on those whimsicle luncheons he makes with sliced bread.

Taa

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 23:16:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC - read before embarking on
Subject: Disgusting, cowradly, ineffective, impotent
Message:
The cult's so limp, isn't it? Sorry you had to endure this, Deb. Consider it a badge of honour, in a way. Naw, consider it nothing because that's what it is. A little chain-rattling from a ghost which, we all know, don't even exist. Pathetic.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 18:08:26 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes Jim, all of the above
Message:
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:39:02 (EST)
From: Dr John Horton
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Whoops, sorry about that!
Message:
Man, I know I haven't practiced medicine for a long time, like about 30 or more years, but I really thought that inserting this little smart chip into our initial experimental group would be a cinch!

Whoops! Must of entered a sinus cavity or something. Maybe I mistook their forehead for their nose. I dunno. I was meditating and counting on Maharaji's grace at the time to make this work out okay.

Anyway, we got these really wierd and literally wired premies out of control, running around with our new smart chip! I think the recall program is up and running by now, by his grace, did I say that yet, in order to call these wayward, blissed out, somewhat lobotomized, premies back into the fold. All I got to do is press this button on the remote control.......

Ouch! Shit! Fucking Hell! What happened?
Goddammit!

The whole unit gave me one hell of a burn. It literally exploded in my very hands!

And will you look at that, it blew my thumb right off of my hand. Oh there it is, here ktty, kitty, kitty. Give me that! Let's get the ice, maybe the nearest hospital can surgically reimplant it, that is if I hurry.
Gotta go now.
Sure hope I don't get a premie nurse!

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 21:36:59 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji: Stop your trolls
Message:
You know damn fuckin well that they are here and what they are doing.

Well! I am telling you that this will get worse, not better.

It is too bad, you are so stupid, that you don't know what you are doing.

My name was placed on that latest CAC and the recent trolls PROVE they still exist. I take my safety very seriously.

If you think I will have my life threatened by you, Maharajij, aka PremPal Singh Rawat.

THINK again.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 08:58:26 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Look at her (Deb)
Subject: It's useless, Premie Ji
Message:
Here's a little poem to put you on the right track. Enjoy!
    Maharaji is quite useless and uncouth
    Says it's wrong to feel, wrong to trust your heart,
    Wrong to think; you just follow his untruth
    Where bondage of illusion is the art.

    His teachings are deceitful, he's a cad,
    Quite the worst guru I've never had.
    He said he'd show us God, but God! he's sad,
    His whole life just a lie; false; rotten; bad.

    He said he's God. I say he is a lie,
    A wealthy no-one poncing off conned folks.
    He cannot tell the truth, nor meet your eye,
    Nor write a decent poem, nor laugh at jokes.

          Prempal Rawat you horrid little man,
          Your game is up, you're headed for the can.


JohnT
- honourary ex
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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 22:01:04 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Maharaji
Subject: Yes, you are your old ugly abusive self again
Message:
But that's the first time I've ever heard you tell the truth.:)

Nice post spoofter now it's time to clean up the mess.

I've got the mop, Gerry. Have you got a bucket? I'll leave the spam on long enough for you and the other forum janitors to record and trace the IP# of the spammer.

For you amateur sleuths out there the spammer's IP# is 206.55.157.168

You may give my email address to their ISP if you decide to complain so that I can confirm the spamming.

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 21:00:16 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Did Michael Dettmers forget this post
Message:
This is a warning, 'threat' that Michael Dettmers recieved in October 2000.

How come mention of this did not come up in the CAC attacks?

p.s. If you stroll down through the responses you will see how effective Bjorn was at railroading the thread. This is the stuff people will have to look thorough in the archives unless you stop feeding the trolls and allowing them to 'silence' the most damaging posts.
[ MD's CAC (?) threat ]

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 20:28:15 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: ot
Message:
Hi Deborah
Would you email to me?
bburke@rocketmail.com
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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 20:52:29 (EST)
From: Deb
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: ot
Message:
Sent email. Bill, everytime I've sent email in the past, it comes back. Hopefully, you got this problem corrected?
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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 17:47:09 (EST)
From: Relayed from EV UK email listing
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Closing down sale?
Message:
Get your orders in now kids!

What - no Atlanta Training DVDs?!

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

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---

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national email: february 2002

An Amazing Sale
Dear everyone,
We are writing to inform everyone of a wonderful way of supporting and making a very direct contribution at this time.
The UK sales team have organised a New Year Sale.
The prices offered on all of the materials are the best we can offer and provide a great opportunity for everyone to buy many of the materials they have always wanted.
The knock-down prices also offer the chance to buy materials for propagation efforts and gifts for others. This will be the last chance to avail yourself of these wonderful items as we are hoping to completely clear the shelves by the end of March 2002.

Bargains include
Videos for £2 or £3
All Audio Cassettes for £1 or £2
All Audio CDs for £2
Publications, music and gift items drastically reduced!
While Stocks Last

The order forms can downloaded at http://www.elanvital.org.uk/downloads/The Sale.PDF (16K) and at http://www.elanvital.org.uk/downloads/The Amazing Sale.rtf (43K).

- Please use the order forms, designed just for this sale. Print it out and fax or post it to us with your selection (Adobe Acrobat or Word Document - both available in this e-mail)
- Place the quantity you wish for each item in the space provided.
- You can order specific titles, or ask us to randomly select titles from your chosen category (use R to indicate random)
- You may order by post, fax or phone.
If you post or fax your order, put your name and phone number on each page.
- If you leave a phone message, indicate a good time to reach you, and your call will be returned as soon as possible.

To place and order, please contact
ph: 01273.749721, e-mail: sales@elanvital.org.uk fx: 01273 204337 or
write to Elan Vital Ltd – Sales, Po. Box. 999, Hove BN3 3HZ, UK

We look forward to your support in finding homes for every item on offer!

Thanks for your help and support
UK Sales Team

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 20:01:31 (EST)
From: E Bai Gum-Ladd
Email: None
To: Relayed from EV UK email listing
Subject: Re: Closing down sale?
Message:
Eee that's wonderful. Am thrilled t' bits. Arl av sum o' that there devortional music for one pownd and mebbee a videor of the Maharaja? Is ee the one that the Beatles 'ad. Al that fer just three pownd. This beats Woolworths any dair.

.. Bai Gum-Ladd


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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 16:28:58 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Fanbelt Grace??
Message:
Perhaps many of you are familiar with the concept referred to as “fanbelt grace” Its in the satsang story of the premie whose car breaks down on a deserted highway, and while investigating under the hood (even though the driver knows absolutely nothing about the workings of an automobile), the premie determines that the fanbelt has broken. Then, astonishingly, in the next moment the premie stumbles across a fanbelt lying on the side of the highway right there, which belt perfectly replaces the broken one in his/her car. This is known as “fanbelt grace,” it was explained, and not the real “grace” of Guru Maharaji which we needed in our lives. [I’d take the fanbelt lying on the side of the road any day, if you’d have asked me.] But, no, fanbelt grace is phony grace, we were told. [If I’ve got this wrong, please correct me, someone.]

Therefore, the following story, I would just chalk up to “fanbelt grace.” But I was always confused about this. Because something unbelievable happened. Here goes:

Back in the summer of 1974, there came the upheaveal in the ashram in Denver wherein the ashram residents had to choose between living in the religious ashram (with Knowledge as the emphasis) or the DUO ashram (emphasis on workers and organizers -- saints need not apply). You had to make a choice. Like “Sophie’s Choice” (what a great piece of literature/film), I could not make up my mind. Therefore, unlike Meryl Streep in the movie, I left for a while to decide. I left my ashram and stuck out my thumb on Colfax Avenue and hitched a ride to Monterrey, California, where I watched at a fancy bar one mid-day in August as President Richard M. Nixon resigned his office as President of the United States (effective the next day). Shortly, thereafter, I left my friends in Monterrey and hitched south towards Los Angeles. While alone on the Pacific Coast Highway with my thumb out, in the middle of nowhere, very poor, not much money, everything in the world I owned on my back, I was picked up by a beige VW bus, which contained Mahatma Gurucharnanand, Mahatma Rajeshwar, Suzi Bai and Bill Patterson, among others. They were on their way to LA. W O W ! ! ! ! First, we all stopped in Santa Cruz, CA where Maharaji and his wife had just left that afternoon. The newly weds had gone for a walk in a local redwood forest park. M had left his high top sneakers in the closet in the ashram/premie house. There they were. The house was now empty. I saw the sneakers again in “And It Is Divine” Magazine where they did a spread on the walk in the park by M and Durgaji. The sneakers were the first time we’d seen the Lord of the Universe in tennis shoes. It was sort of confronting. Shocking. I then went to LA, was put up in a premie house for a little while, then hitched a ride back to Denver, and was made to re-apply to the ashram, and had to live in the 1610 Race Street Divine Shelter with housemom Elliot Brye calling the shots, until my application was accepted and I could move back into the ashram.

Was my hitch-hiking experience F A N B E L T G R A C E or the real thing? I never figured this one out. Was it my guardian angel? I don’t really believe in them all that much, but who knows. If you do, please let me know.

It’s been 28 years since this road trip. I’m glad I am JUST NOW able to move on from my sorry belief in the tortured philosophy of something called the Grace of SatGuru Shri Sant Ji Maharaj. What a bunch of horseshit that turned out to be.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:04:31 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: No, it wasn't grace at all.......
Message:
In fact, after what you know now, I would view it as being in the wrong place at the wrong time. From what I can gather from your post it seems as if, this time in your life was akin to having to choose a fork in the road. If it had not been your bad luck to be picked up by these high level premies, ie, close to M, no telling what fork/path you would of chosen. You were young and searching and just coming out of the ashram. It was all about love and truth. You were in other words, incrediably easy pickings for the likes of M. I think what you related here was an example of bad luck.
But that is life. And sometimes it isn't fair.

Take care,
Just my two cents,
Gotta go, time to put in the fabric softener for the load of laundry I'm washing. That is a joke, I was laughing when I wrote it, hope you do too!

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:53:08 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: We Kid Because We Love!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 07:10:49 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: Fanbelt Grace? Me too
Message:
On the way to Oakland, way late after 12 am just outside of Oroville Ca, the fan belt broke, I limped in to Oroville and checked into one of those seedy Indian motels that line interstate 5.

Him being an indian and all I told him I was on my way to the Bay area to see maharaji, and described my current predictament with the fan belt. The very next morning some guy knocked on my door with the fan belt that I needed and installed it for me, didn't even want to accept payment, I insisted on paying anyway.

Good things have happened to me many times through the kindness of strangers that I of course gave full credit to M for.

Even though I thanked them profusely each time, I smirked sanctimoniously under my breath just knowing that it was the grace of GMJ.

Good stuff continues to occur unexplainably in my life sans m today, leaving no reason to believe that either now or then has M directly ever had anything to do with my co-incidental good fortune.

After all I found EPO and the Forum, was that also by the grace of GMJ, funny how I cannot imagine him taking credit for that stroke of good luck.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 06:32:06 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Is there EPO/F7 Grace ?? ??
Message:
I found your post extremely moving.. not from a devotee angle, but as a sharp reminder of the depth and strength of our conditioning.

I tend to forget quite how deeply psychologically ga-ga we all were.. and even though I missed some of the more extreme years, I made up for it in my own way.

Also what touched me was the reminder of how sweet it felt to have ONE person/God/Life Force to pray to, relate to and be grateful to. Kind of made life simple.. and the simplicity made us happy.

Its a strange formulae.......

But who is to say that the same 'Grace' which brought us to Knowledge and to Him hasn't also inspired and brought us here.

Finally Now, it works directly through us.. if it ever worked at all.

Loaf sings 'We dont need no thought control.... hey Teacher, leave them kids alone'

Love

Loafie
Comfortably Numb.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 19:12:57 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: song writers: a challenge for you
Message:
Loafie ... your little diddy suggests the beginning of a potential ex tune. It'll start with the words:

'We don't need your mind control, Maharaji. We don't need ...
(and someone out there please finish it with words that are set to the old 70's country western song: We don't smoke marijuana in Muskokee ... and posting on F7 is fine with me)

just a thought. song writers: step up to the challenge

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 21:18:40 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Here is a verse
Message:
here is a start, for someone else to add onto

We don't need your mind control Maharaji
We don't need techniques you say are free

We don't want to forever sing you Arti
swinging a stinking tray of burning Ghee

Go ahead add to the collective effort

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 00:06:59 (EST)
From: StevieJi
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Write on, Brian. Happy to ...
Message:
To the tune of 'I am just an Okee from Muskokee'
(and a one, and a two, and a three, and a ...)

We don't need your mind control Maharaji
We don't need techniques you say are free
We don't want to forever sing you Arti
Swinging a stinking tray of burning Ghee

We don't give our money to no guru
We don't even give him time of day
We don't get our butts kicked in Amaroo
Our minds are one place he cannot play

We don't let our children near Jagdeo
He ain't gonna mess with them, no way!
Toss him in the pokey without bail
Target practice with him is okay

We don't buy no trinkets from his EV
Visions payments are a crock of shit
We don't watch Shri Fat Boy on our TV
At his feet we will no longer sit

Prem Pal Rawat is so full of do-do
Calling him a master is a joke
Even his own mistress calls him RUGU
And Brit exes say he's one bad bloke

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 21:30:43 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Maybe it was lila
Message:
Great story OTS.

But maybe it was lila and not grace. Arnie the IHQ attorney would sometimes walk around freaking out about something and say 'I can't tell, is this lila or grace?' He was making the distinction that grace is when things go your way and GMJ was obviously showering you with grace. When things didn't go right, it was lila and GMJ was screwing with your world to teach you a lesson. So maybe your miracle ride was lila. The next ride could have been babes with reefer. Now that would have been grace. :)

But to your point, there were many such stories back in the day. None quite as 'miraculous' as yours but, without fail, the stories were told as parables to prove that GMJ was ominscient and omnipresent.

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 17:56:00 (EST)
From: Ed
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: 'XXX-Grace'?
Message:
Damn OTS, did you just jog my memory. There was one time I was heading to satsang in Philly and I was passing a old time burlesque house that would be holding it's last performance that night before it's destiny with the wrecking ball. Imagine my confusion, Satasang or Strippers !!! LOL! I chose the latter. Well, while in the middle of the featured performer's routine, she stops, looks at me, and blurts out my name and asks me to meet her after her show at the bar next door. Immediately, my mind yells out SCORE !!! So, I meet her at the bar next door and find out that she was someone I met in my past in the entertainment business years ago. She asks me if I would like to go home with her to talk about old times. Sure! talk? So of course, I agreed. Upon entering her front door, her ex-boyfriend was exiting at the same moment. He had a really freaked out look on his face. When the lights were turned on, we found a suicide note that the ex had just finished writing stating that he couldn't take it anymore and was on his way to jump off the Ben Franklin Bridge. Boy ! so now what? I don't really remember how I started, but the next thing I knew was that the sun was coming up and I was still giving this guy satsang. When I asked him about his intended suicide, he answered, 'What suicide attempt'? The thouhts that ran through my head about that episode could have filled a novel. Everything from saving a life for the lord, to being that guys incarnated guardian angel, and to the other extreme of failing to get laid were all part of the experience. So, hesitating to relate this story at satsang the next night for fear of being admonished for going to the strip club I decided to keep quiet. I almost made it to the end of satsang, when all of a sudden I heard the familiar chant of, 'Ed, would you like to give satsang'? Well, the story got told, and for the next 10 minutes all I remember was hearing the maniacal rantings of the room shouting BOLIE SHRI!!
and everyone telling me that M chose me that night to be the vehicle for his grace. What a crock of shit ! To me, this was just business as usual. My entire experience of M and K was along these lines. Like I said, I could fill a novel. So, could I call this 'XXX-Grace'?
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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 17:39:34 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Direction - Divine Grace??
Message:
Great story, OTS, but if you were in Monterey, heading to Los Angeles, which is South, how could the Mahatma twins, Suzie Bai & Co., pick you up if they were heading to Santa Cruz which is North of Monterey?

So OTS, there may have been more grace at work there than you realized. Perhaps Maharaji turned the whole world around, like he did for that brother he was driving with, (where was it?) in London, or I-10 in Los Angeles, or some place, to keep him from having a terrible car accident. Wherever it was it's all grace anyway.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 22:27:10 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Direction - Divine Grace?
Message:
Perhaps Maharaji turned the whole world around, like he did for that brother he was driving with, (where was it?) in London, or I-10 in Los Angeles, or some place, to keep him from having a terrible car accident.

Hi Joe

I was that 'brother' thank you !

It is a long and involved story, but I was driving M to Loughborough in England from London in October 1971. I missed the exit, and I knew it was a long way to the next exit, and so M told me to do a U-turn and drive back down the fast lane, the wrong way ! The highway had a dividing barrier, so you could not do a U-turn onto the opposite lanes, only go back in the lane I was in, against all the traffic !!

I did not, and carried on to the next exit in stony silence. That night, I heard M mention my 'lack of faith', and so I asked him what would have happened if I had turned round and driven back the wrong way. He said 'Don't you think I could have turned the world round so you would have been driving in the right direction' !!

I used to tell this story frequently in the early 70's, and when I was in America (Guru Puja Montrose, 1972, Millenium etc) and I sometimes heard American premies later give satsang about a similar incident happening to them ! I suppose M could have said it more than once, but I suspected that my darshan and grace stories were being ripped off !

-- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 15:15:47 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: Direction - Divine Grace?
Message:
Your story reminded me of a shrihans story I heard.

A premie was standing in front of hans and hans told him to step backwards. He did so. This carried on until the premie hit the wall of the room. Hans said 'Now step back again', the premie said 'I can't I am against the wall'.
Hans said 'Well, you could have at least tried'.

The there was the story about hans projecting a movie from the palm of his hand.
Remember that one?

And to think I used to drink up those stories.

Hope all is well with you

Regards
Jethro

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 17:15:09 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Add this to it
Message:
During this exact, specific time, I was an 'aspirant' although they didn't call us that. I had been to a house in San Francisco to ask for knowledge, where we aspirants wrote our name down on a piece of paper. I waited and waited for my turn in the inquisition process from, non other, Rajeshwar. I'd had enough, got freaked I wasn't good enough, and left. He then kept calling my name.

My family vacationed every year at Santa Cruz, so a couple days later, I go with them. I knew nothing about M being there. My brother and I went to the park you mentioned, and right there, the whole freaking world turned to nothing but gold light. I had to sit there on a bench, with my eyes closed, for the longest time.

Of course, after this, I was completely changed and was desperate for knowledge, no matter what the abusive process. I followed Rageshwar to LA and got knowledge a few days after Tim Gallway's wedding, from Rageshwar, but not until he returned from postponing the session for a ride with Maharaji on his boat.

This is just one of the weird things that had me convinced he was Lord Incarnate. What I'm left with today is the ability to feel earthquakes before and when they happen all over the world. I don't understand it. All I want is six winning lottery numbers on the right ticket.

It's all such a mind game. Is this the touchy feely stuff that didn't happen to us so we aren't supposed to talk about it?

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 16:46:16 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: OTS, Just chalk it up to coincidence...
Message:
Since I now believe there never was any kind of grace, it was a coincidence, and that may be stretching it.

You were on the Pacific Coast Highway--it's likely you would have run into a premie driving on that road. The particular folks that picked you up probably saw an opportunity for propagation!

I bet that story, if you told it in satsang (or to even one premie), ran through the premie grapevine like shit through goose.

I used to thrive on those 'grace' stories.

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 21:08:59 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The Diceman
Message:
I never read that book(too mindy)but I knew someone who was into it for a bit.

This guy was passing through London & contacted the parents of a friend of mine(who lived near the airport)to see if anyone he knew was around. The answer being 'no',he went into town to hang out for the several hours wait for his next flight.

Less than half an hour later, someone he knew found himself stranded at the airport because his plane had developed a fault & been diverted. This one did the same thing & was naturally told that so & so had just been in touch.

He too set off into town,disappointed at having missed friend no1 by such a narrow margin.

Friend no1 got bored,but couldn't decide whether or not to go back to the airport,so he tossed a coin, Diceman style, to see if he should hail the next taxi. The coin said 'yes',so he did,nearly getting run over in the process because it was already occupied.....by friend no2.

Fortunately neither of them were premies, so I just heard the story once with no philosophising as to the cosmic meaning.......just crash into the wall,bounce off & go.......WHAAAT !

I've got an even better one than that,but it's far too complicated to put into writing easily.

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 22:48:53 (EST)
From: ChrisP
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Grace misinterpreted....
Message:
Grace = one thing I definitely never understood, so instead of buying it, I just filed it away.

I did check the dictionary definition = the love and favor of God toward man - which still tells me nicht. Does that mean something along the lines of 'mercy'? If so, I like that, but that sure doesn't fit the interpretations I encountered in MJ's world.

In premiedom there were 3 interpretations that I came across:

One was the 'by special privilege of the master and by absolutely no merit or credit of your own' version. I remember one guy telling me at a service 'pep talk' at a program that 'we're here offering our services today only by His grace and I hope I never forget that'.

Then there's the 'good luck's on our side, okay to wing-it' version: 'not to worry; it will happen by his grace; grace will take care of things'.

There's also the 'things are going my way; the universe is aligned for ChrisP today' version: (see fanbelt grace above) I liked this version least of all. What about the poor guy off whose car the fanbelt fell? He's probably the guy in the fatal car accident you read about in the paper the next day. Then how do you know that same fanbelt won't fall off your car tomorrow?

The realist in me just can't believe the universe is centered around me as in The World According to ChrisP. I tend to think things happen for no special reason other than it just happens (and for nobody in particular, no matter who's wearing the right-colored glasses of the day). I read somewhere that most people see the world through the colors of their own emotions, hopes and expectations, and very few people see the world as it is. And I think this gave me a clue as to how it's easy to throw all our love and devotion onto another human being, only to have it change with time. Also, I think this touches a bit on why premies tend to credit whatever goes right in their lives to MJ, K and grace.

So these interpretations never fitted me - the realist in me grated against them every time. I have always, and still do, grapple with the question is there such a thing as destiny. Sometimes I think so; sometimes not. Either way, I'm not inclined to just lump in 'grace' under the umbrella of destiny - that's just way too simplistic and loopy.

So, if anyone out there can help me with this, please post! This is another fav topic of mine, but have long given up on as I have no clue left.....

ChrisP, am I the master of my own destiny, or is destiny the master of me?

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 09:41:48 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: ChrisP
Subject: Re: Grace misinterpreted....
Message:
This is all fascinating stuff. Poor premies, not being allowed to discuss it any more! Well, here's another angle on destiny: according to twin studies, identical twins who are separated at birth and brought up in very different sorts of families, often go on to lead uncannily similar lives. This would suggest that there is some kind of destiny tied up in our genetic code. This only works, incidentally, with identical twins as only they share exactly the same genetic code.

So perhaps, from a genetic standpoint, we have a basic destiny which our life holds us to give or take a certain amount of individual twists and turns. WEIRD!!!! Puts the notion of free will severely to the test!

Without having the study in front of me I can't really say more, but it does seem to tell us that there is such a thing as destiny after all.

However, our upbringing and personality also obviously have a large amount of bearing on how our lives turn out, so there seems to be a complex interplay of influences here.

On the subject of being unable to shake off 'magical thinking', a devoted premie friend of mine died recently in a horrific freak accident. And one thought that went immediately through my head was: 'Perhaps M took her out to save her from ever having to know the revlations on EPO - it would have devastated her too much if M were to resign or whatever in the future....' Where on earth is the logic in that??? But the thought went through my head all the same. 'M saved her from finding out he was a fraud.' Duh???????

Comments anyone?

Love, Livia

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 14:05:56 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: repetitive magical thinking has a half life
Message:
that seems to take time and disuse to dismantle. We have an outdoors shower, the metal shower rod sticks out to the sky, so there I am under the water and a mighty electrical storm rolls over the escarpment.....craaaack, the lightning forks outa the sky directly above with all the attendant noise and light and I jumped out of the shower, reaching for my rubber thongs, and I felt really determined that however I die, I do not want to die by lightning strike. As someone who is outspoken about the god myth, who will characterise god as a pompous capricious twit on a cloud, I figured I owe it to my friends and family not to get struck by lightning, it would be too freaky, after all lightning strike seems to be the one major proof that God exists!

My first piece of solid individual thinking on becoming an ex was to link thought and feeling, and I have often observed that a feeling can repetitively bring up the same thought, and vice versa. Currently I am thinking that, as a species, we are infested with thought bacteria, some of which can remain dormant throughout our lives, but if it becomes activated, it can spread further.....or we can clean it up. All the best, Lesley the primate in recovery from an attack of religious bacteria

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 16:36:49 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Religious bacteria...
Message:
Hi Lesley,

When I first starting reading your post I thought you were going to make a reference to those awful outdoor showers at the Kissimmee swamp fests.

Your characterization of magical thinking as 'religious bacteria' is exactly what happens.

You make an excellent point about linking thought with feeling. I think this is where PTSD comes in for ex-cult members. Something may happen, anything, an event in our lives which reminds us of a cult experience, (a word, a song, a photo of a swan, the smell of gardenias, etc.) and an infected thought transforms into a feeling (sometimes actual physical sensations) that can be quite disturbing for exiting premies. It takes a lot of conscious work inside my mind, anyway, to reframe the thought to feeling process in order to rid myself of that ugly bacterial infection--it feels awful.

I have found that stopping those thoughts from having further detrimental affects on me is to realize that's it's coming from a kind of old tape loop inside my brain, then in reframing it, acknowledging it and moving on works quite well, until the next one comes along.

There are so many.....

Thanks for that term, you coined it, you own it! Religious bacteria. I like it.

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 14:52:16 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Religious bacteria...
Message:
Hi Cynthia, my memory of the facilities at Kissimee is limited to vague memories of standing in queues and a shudder, not that I can't remember other things about that delightful little sojourn in the swamp.

I'm glad you like the term religious bacteria, I do too. I had the bizarre experience the other day of tuning in to the Oprah Winfrey show, where John Gray, author of the mars venus books, was leading the audience in a little meditation, a mantra along the lines of inviting god into your open heart, and was it just projection or was I observing accurately, I don't know, but to my eyes, the audience, and myself were in that warm bath of profound emotion. I am finding it really tricky, to accept those very sincere feelings of love, that sense of human community, that traditionally we have sought in our churches and, um, cults, and charismatic leaders. I just admire what you said in your post, thanks.

I knew I had hit the jackpot when I put my thoughts and feelings together, the sense of healing was immediate, but I had no idea what a favour I had just done myself; imo, it is the key to restoring that individual thought process to good working order again, love Lesley

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:41:13 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: To Livia...
Message:
Hi Livia,

The magical thinking is what I call the maharaji mindf**k. It's deeply engrained and I had a similar experience last week when my car broke down. ''If I was still following m this wouldn't have happened.'' WHAT?

They're errant thoughts that pop up from time to time and have no logic. That's why when that happens to me I have to stop, realize what it is, and throw it away.

This happens to children who are taught that they are bad or verbally abused. Recovering from negative thoughts in adulthood is difficult--BUT it can be done. I'm living proof.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:36:08 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Comments anyone?
Message:
On the subject of being unable to shake off 'magical thinking.'

Well, Livia, it's hard to shake off 30 years of ''magical thinking.'' Actually it's harder to admit that that's the way I used to think. Aaargh!

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:45:45 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I say Aaargh, too [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 03:32:36 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: ChrisP
Subject: Parking space grace
Message:
I liked Vicki's last line: ''It's all such a mind game. Is this the touchy feely stuff that didn't happen to us so we aren't supposed to talk about it?''

Yes, it is now verboten in the cult for thoroughly modern PWKs to talk like this eventhough we all knew that we still relied on that grace to find us that parking space in front of that post office. Well I did, right up until a few months ago. Yep, I confess to being superstitious. It's all superstition overlaid on everyday life and seen miraculously as synchronicity. Living on the third rock is surrealistic enough for me without having to invent lilas. What hokum!

But, yes, let's talk about - it's so damn trippy and fun. Come to dinner all of you guys above. You can sing for your supper. Well, I know Joe, Vicki and Ed can make it.

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 10:47:46 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, that's not grace, that's Doris Day parking [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 13:31:47 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Doris Day parking?
Message:
So she really is a goddess and I am not wrong to worship her. I have all her stuff from the 40s with the big bands (Les Brown etc) when she was a chicken and tried to sing like Ella Fitzgerald.

But something is telling me that you don't mean that I'll get a parking space if I pray to Doris Day. What a shame and all these years it's worked so well. :C)

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Date: Wed, Feb 06, 2002 at 11:58:01 (EST)
From: Crispy again:
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: PatC's supper, by his grace
Message:
Good one, Barbara :)

And PatC: I could play 'Amazing Grace' on the bagpipes for my supper :)

Livia, methinks MJ had nothing to do with that horrific car accident, just as he has nothing to do with winning a million dollar lotto. Myself, I'd much rather separate whatever goes right or wrong in my life from MJ, K, grace & lila altogether.

By the way, has anyone seen the German movie Run Lola Run by Tomas Tykver? It's full of this fascinating stuff re twists of fate.

PS to OTS: You mentioned Elliot Brye, who I really liked as a touring instructor in our city. I don't know what she was like as a Race Street resident, but she was great at a country 'retreat' up here in Canada. Do you know whatever happened to her? Also, Matthias Bretzgher (from Switzerland, I think) is another one I liked and always wondered where he is now....

Cheers y'all,

ChrisP, I swore I would never engage in 3rd P gossip on this site....

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 15:45:24 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: My Email to Tim Gallwey
Message:
I sent the following to the two email addresses I was given for Tim Gallwey. I also emailed it to the Visions website, which is marketing the Passages video as, ironically, a 'historical documentary.'

February 4, 2002

Dear Mr. Gallwey:

My name is Joe Whalen and I was a follower of Maharaji from 1973 to 1983. I decided to stop having Maharaji as my 'master,' as many thousands of others did, for various reasons, mainly because I was fairly miserable as a premie and have been much happier since pursuing other endeavors.

Recently, I viewed a copy of the Visions video called Passages -- A Master's Journey. Although no names are mentioned in the video, I am quite certain you were one of the speakers. I found a few of the things you said in the video quite puzzling, in that I do not believe they correspond to the actual factual history of Maharaji and his movement, particularly how you and the narrator in the video imply that people stopped following Maharaji because he got rid of certain 'Indian traditions' (saris being a particularly absurd example) and they were more 'attached' to those traditions, or religious practices, and preferred those to the actual 'experience.'

Specifically, in one relevent section, the video statements, and particularly your comments, are the following:

___________________________________

NARRATOR: By the end of the 1970s, Maharaji had successfully introduced knowledge into a number of countries. But he was becoming increasingly aware of the need to separate knowledge from its Indian cultural packaging. Too many things that are simply a part of Indian culture were considered, incorrectly, by Westerners to be an integral part of what Maharaji was offering....

NARRATOR: For some people the changes that needed to take place were confronting. They had become attached to a lifestyle they associated with Maharaji and knowledge that was based on Indian tradition.

LINDA PASCOTTO: I had friends who lived in the ashram who stopped practicing when the ashrams closed, they felt betrayed, abandoned.

TIM GALLWEY: He [Maharaji] undertook the challenge to get rid of the fluff, the conceptions that might have attracted people, that in fact some people loved more than they loved the real thing and that left people with a choice. Do I love my quote 'religion,' my 'Maharaji religion,' or do I love my actual recognition, my actual understanding of what I am seeing and experiencing? And some people said, 'no, I'll take my religion, thank you very much (laughing), and some said this is real enough that I'm gonna stick with it.
_________________________________END OF QUOTES____________

Mr. Gallwey, although there are a number of other representations in this video that I believe are highly revisionist and misleading, I find your comments particularly off the mark and just plain false. Do you actually know of even one person, one Westerner, who stopped practicing knowledge, or left Maharaji, because he or she was so enamored with the 'Indian tranditions?'

I can say honestly, that despite knowing many former followers of Maharji, and despite having been a follower for over 10 years, I have never even heard of one person taking that position or for whom that was true. Again, do you even know of one Westerner for whom this was true, even setting aside for a moment the blanket, somewhat insulting, characterization you made about people who stopped following Maharaji?

In fact, everyone I knew who followed Maharaji was quite tired of Indian traditions, and, in fact, 'Indian traditions,' were nearly nonexistent long before I stopped being a premie in the early 80s, notwithstanding Maharaji's continued propensity to wear Krishna garb at events well into the 80s. So I find it perplexing that you would have an idea like you do, and further that you would make blanket statements like you do, about these people including me.

Can you also tell me, if you did any kind of survey or research to back up your opinion before you made it in this video? I would very much like to communicate with you on this subject. My time as a premie is a very significant period in my life, as I am sure it is in the lives of many people, at a very formative time in my and their youth.

Hence, I think you can see how we might take your dismissive characterizations of our motivations a bit personally, especially when they are contained in a video currently on sale to the general public through the Visions website and is being marketed as a "historical documentary." I would appreciate any clarification or explanation you can provide.

I look forward to your response, and thank you for your consideration.

Joe Whalen
San Francisco, California.

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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 20:22:13 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: great work Joe. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Feb 05, 2002 at 16:29:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Expect an apology -- fast!
Message:
'Dear Mr. Whalen;

It's funny, Joe, but although I have had Knowledge since the early seventies, I can't say I know you. Not that I've spent much time out among the hoi polloi but surely you'd have been at one of our Malibu get togethers over the years, one would think. But your name doesn't ring a bell. Did you ever take one of my workshops? Have I autographed a book for you? Did you ever maybe stop me once just to say hi at a program and tell me how much you liked one of my books? Where might we have met?

Joe, I'm not about to argue all the finer points of what words I said, this time or that. I don't play that game, Joe. It's not the 'inner game', it's something else and I JUST DON'T PLAY IT. Besides, from the sound of things, you're probably one of those who call themselves 'ex-premies'. Valario's explained to me how you guys seems to be working through all sorts of stuff. None of it sounds all that pretty, Joe, and frankly -- no offense -- I just don't want to touch it.

Go inside, Joe, and find that real spirit of truth. Past all the name-calling and competitive 'I'm right / You're wrong' attitude. The whole world's playing that game, Joe, but like I said, I'm not. I'm playing an entirely different game. And guess what, bud? I just won. Get lost.

Sincerely,

Tim 'Sure, Valario, you can use my credit card' Gallwey

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Date: Thurs, Feb 07, 2002 at 08:44:37 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ho ho ho!
Message:
Dear Jim,

I liked this. Shrewd characterization. Great stuff, and thanks.

love Bryn

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