Steve Mueller -:- Nurturing Each Other, Not Nitpicking -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:52:31 (EST)

__ JHB -:- Nitpicking? -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:11:38 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- The Beatles were more popular -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:19:13 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- Re: The Beatles were more popular -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:05:12 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Um, er, well, uh, um, hm........... -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 02:23:58 (EST)

__ __ Pullaver -:- Well said, Jim. (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:15:38 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Oh Puleeze, the recent exes? -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 02:43:43 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- But you HAVE to hurt people .... -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:27:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Thanks for the excellent link! [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:47:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- The truth hurts -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:36:32 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Saying you have to hurt people -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:59:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Saying you have to hurt people -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:33:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Saying you have to hurt people -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:17:14 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- God, Steve, it was just a joke! -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:11:58 (EST)

Joy -:- Did the Hare Krishna lawsuit settle? -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:11:08 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Re: Did the Hare Krishna lawsuit settle? -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 02:54:16 (EST)

Jim -:- Real people just don't quite cut it -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:03:25 (EST)

__ PatC -:- She's a nun -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:41:38 (EST)

Jim -:- Can someone help me out here? -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:22:46 (EST)

__ JHB -:- Yoram helped yesterday -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:28:30 (EST)

teresa -:- social exclusion -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 19:45:36 (EST)

__ PatD -:- TB was in the God Squad at Oxford -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:34:09 (EST)

__ JHB -:- Welcome, Teresa -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:01:58 (EST)

Barry -:- Jim! This is some of the..... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:12:18 (EST)

Janet -:- copyleft-we're doing it! -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:06:42 (EST)

__ janet -:- Re: copyleft-let me explain this -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:50:58 (EST)

__ __ JHB -:- Readability info and a suggestion -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 19:11:53 (EST)

__ __ __ janet -:- Re: Readability -yeah i know -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:13:34 (EST)

__ __ janet -:- Re: copyleft-let me explain this -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 19:03:52 (EST)

Barry -:- Called up 23 on M's website search! -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 17:58:42 (EST)

__ Barry -:- Oh well? -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:02:06 (EST)

__ __ Dermot -:- Which site Barry? -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:23:34 (EST)

__ __ __ Barry -:- Right here! -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:43:08 (EST)

Livia -:- They don't know what's going on -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:49:30 (EST)

__ Bryn -:- The idea of going to hell -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:30:12 (EST)

__ __ Francesca :~) -:- When my sides split -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:55:51 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- How about this one, Fran... -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 02:10:39 (EST)

__ Suedoula -:- It takes a drip or two -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:39:30 (EST)

__ __ You want drips? -:- This is the place -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:32:16 (EST)

__ __ __ janet -:- drips? I'm showering in em -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:25:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- drips? I'm showering in em...Janet LOL... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 22:13:43 (EST)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Seething troubles? -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:17:09 (EST)

__ __ Suedoula -:- Re: It takes a drip or two -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:41:08 (EST)

__ Francesca -:- **BEST OF FORUM*** Livia -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:45:14 (EST)

__ __ cq -:- and **BEST OF FORUM*** Suedola too! (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:51:26 (EST)

__ __ __ Francesca :) -:- And SUEDOLA too (nt) [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:15:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ***BEST OF to Livia,Suedoula, Janet*** [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 22:19:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Best of ... second that emotion, indeed -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:11:53 (EST)

Livia -:- -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:48:38 (EST)

cq -:- M: plain ignorant? or deliberate liar? -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:43:34 (EST)

__ Francesca :~) -:- Plain old BALD FACED LIE -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:22:49 (EST)

__ cq -:- Re: M: plain ignorant? or deliberate liar? repost -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:48:15 (EST)

__ __ Carl -:- We may as well pack up and go home -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:41:06 (EST)

__ __ __ cq -:- there's only one conclusion from this: -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:08:36 (EST)

__ __ cq -:- test (ignore) -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:02:12 (EST)

Occasional Poster -:- Hold the front page .... -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:31:58 (EST)

__ Patrick Wilson -:- Re: Hold the front page .... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:18:59 (EST)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Hold the front page .... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 21:56:46 (EST)

__ __ Marshall -:- Re: Hold the front page .... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 16:26:55 (EST)

__ __ Marianne -:- Re: Hold the front page .... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:44:53 (EST)

__ __ __ PatrickW -:- Re: Hold the front page .... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 16:09:53 (EST)

__ Beverly -:- Re: Hold the front page .... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:46:41 (EST)

__ __ Occasional Poster -:- Immoral trappings .... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:28:58 (EST)

__ The Maharaji of Malibu -:- really leaves you scratching your head -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 03:08:00 (EST)

__ StevieJi -:- Re: ... will be SLIMED down ... -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 23:27:08 (EST)

__ Moley -:- Typo I'm sure Opie.... -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 21:20:04 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- No best seller here.... -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:32:26 (EST)

__ __ shri me -:- Re: No best seller here.... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:52:57 (EST)

__ Deborah -:- Hi OP, you did good [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:06:21 (EST)

__ __ me again -:- Re: Above, not [NT] -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:07:00 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Thanks OP, good summary... -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:59:03 (EST)

__ Joe -:- I listened too....REALLY!! -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:06:14 (EST)

__ __ cq -:- re. British charity laws -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:26:40 (EST)

__ __ __ cq -:- In case that jpg doesn't show up - -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 14:11:05 (EST)

__ __ Richard -:- The media exposure will be good for all -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:09:40 (EST)

__ __ PatD -:- tax rebates...that's spin -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:00:43 (EST)

__ __ __ Nottm Bunny -:- Not spin - UK tax rebates system -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 05:17:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatD -:- Thanks Bunny [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:47:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sounds like what Yoram was saying -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:24:49 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Occasional Poster -:- EV UK charity registration -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 07:48:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Obtaining Elan Vital accounts -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:37:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Beverly -:- Re: EV UK charity registration -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:55:48 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ That doesn't sound -:- very legal, does it? (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:27:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Amaroo 'donations' -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:41:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Make Donations to charities, Schools etc do they ? -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:42:16 (EST)

__ JHB -:- Maharaji must think the media are stupid -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:52:56 (EST)

__ __ Vicki -:- Re: Maharaji must think the media are stupid -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 06:26:02 (EST)

__ __ Dermot -:- Eastenders?? -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 18:27:22 (EST)

__ __ __ Jethro -:- Brookside!!!!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:12:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Re: Brookside!!!!!!!!!!....Lol -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:34:03 (EST)

__ __ Occasional Poster -:- Eastenders vs. Knowledge Hmmm a tough choice! -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 18:12:32 (EST)

__ __ jethro -:- will PHil kill Steve? nt -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:59:27 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Will PHil kill Steve? Hopefully:) [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:21:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Moley -:- No no, better the other way round ;) [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:47:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Is Steve the handsome blonde lad?? -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 23:18:45 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Handsome blonde lad? -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 03:24:57 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ddermot -:- Re: Handsome blonde lad?????? -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 08:59:07 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Dot Cotton was also Nanny Slagg -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:48:25 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- I'll find out who he is -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:42:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- The handsome blond lad is Jamie -:- Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:56:01 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- CORRIE IS BEST.. Dont watch this miserable rubbish -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 05:25:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- You heard it here first ... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 08:26:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Gawd Blimey ! -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:43:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Roy Chubby Brown in Home and Away?! (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:07:03 (EST)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Probably, but I hope.... -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 18:09:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- Only one pub... -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:01:12 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- What about the Dagmar? -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 02:32:17 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Ddermot -:- The Archers -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 09:08:37 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ shri me -:- Re: The Archers -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:07:09 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Thanks Opie - EV to be ''slimed'' down? -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:50:57 (EST)

__ __ Moley -:- Oh - you got there B4 me :) [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 21:23:48 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- I read the forum backwards anyway :C) [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 03:08:56 (EST)

Steve Mueller -:- Always fresh -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 16:26:53 (EST)

__ Dermot -:- and the PREMIE forum.... -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:54:21 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- Excellent appraisal, Dermot! -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:56:50 (EST)

__ Brian Smith -:- Intelligent and stimulating too -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:04:15 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Re: Always fresh -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 16:40:03 (EST)

__ __ Marshall -:- Re: Always fresh -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:48:41 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- But the evolution discussion continues! -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 00:52:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: But the evolution discussion continues! -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 03:42:11 (EST)

__ __ __ p -:- I agree, Marshall -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 18:56:27 (EST)

PatC -:- From Premie First Class email -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 16:13:59 (EST)

__ JHB -:- The English Language -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 16:42:02 (EST)

__ __ PatC -:- translation...... -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:01:50 (EST)

__ __ __ Janet -:- i liked this part -:- Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 04:47:38 (EST)

Jim -:- The myth of 'twisted reason' -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:18:31 (EST)

__ Barry -:- It's that simple! -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:00:13 (EST)

__ Jerry -:- What a neurologist says about it -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:02:35 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Re: The myth of 'twisted reason' -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 14:11:46 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Anya's excellent post -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 13:50:53 (EST)

__ __ Francesca :) -:- Great post, Anya! -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:26:55 (EST)

__ __ Dermot -:- Yep, eloquent and precise [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 15:04:50 (EST)

__ __ Barbara -:- Anya perfectly describes cognitive dissonance [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 14:27:45 (EST)

Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:52:31 (EST) From: Steve Mueller Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net To: All Subject: Nurturing Each Other, Not Nitpicking Message:

Further down I posted a 'Nope ... Jesus' post and I realized that I needed to use more prudence about referencing such potentially hot-button words as: 'Jesus'. Many people of many religious faiths received K. Many of them never subscribed to any of the Christian varieties. So, for them, one who is considered to be the founder or spiritual leader of a faith or religion other than the one they grew up with likely means nothing special to them. One of the principles I'm trying to incorporate in my posts is to try to use language that will avoid upsetting such people, those raised under a religious heritage different than my own. So, for those who may have felt offended, I apologize if they felt I insulted their own strongly-held religious beliefs. I certainly did not mean to. And I most DEFINITELY am NOT pushing any kind of religion. I thought I had clarified things by saying that my only purpose in quoting or referencing 'that man' was that some of that things 'that man' said resonated with my own experiences of truth. That's all I was trying to say. Nothing more. You know, I don't play favorites. If another supposedly spiritual teacher said something of value that also mirrored my own experience of truth, I certainly would have or will quote them also. Also, you know, I wasn't around 2000 years ago. I wasn't there when 'that man' walked the earth so I don't know anything more about 'that man' than anyone else does. All I do know about 'that man' is what I have read in certain books. But, I have experienced life and I (think I) have learned a thing or two about its deeper truths. One of the most important and fundamental lessons worth learning about life is that real, true, unconditional, impartial love is the most powerful thing that there is. It is so powerful that it has the capacity of overcoming all barriers and healing all divisions separating peoples. I have realized this totally. You can believe what you want to but nothing you can say will ever make me change that statement. There are other things I have learned, but this is by far the most important thing I have ever learned. So, I hope you will understand the gist of what I'm saying here. Also, keep in mind that we are dealing with concepts here. Concepts are limited. Even if two people say they agree on the words used to express a concept, even so, there will likely be subtle differences of what that concept means to each of them that will differ from what it means to the other one. One thing I try to do when reading posts is to listen with my heart as well as my head. I find that helps me to understand the gist or basic feeling of what the person is trying to say. It helps to stop me from going out on a tangent to take a person to task for something relatively minor or from applying an overly narrow interpretation to their post. It also supports their healing. Often I don't agree with everything someone says but I recognize that, as long as it is not a big deal, just the action of my hearing them out WITHOUT overly nitpicking them is performing the service of facilitating their healing, of helping them recover from M. Understand that M has really really hurt a bunch of people in a very bad way. Most of us are in far greater need of supportive nurturing by each other than we are of being excessively corrected. There are two very very beautiful lady exes who used to post here recently but who have been absent for awhile. I strongly suspect that they just could not handle the unnecessary slings and arrows on F7 and probably said to themselves, to hell with F7 and exes. Let's help each other. Let's try not to imitate or emulate M's contempt and hatred. The Beatles said it best: 'All you need is Love, Love; Love is all you need.' Peace, everybody and I wish you all continued happy exing. Love, Steve

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:11:38 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Nitpicking? Message:

Steve, I'm not sure what you mean by nitpicking and I don't know if you are refering to your comments about your view that you imagine being atheist a bleak existence. I know you apologised about it when I challenged you, but I wonder whether you've actually addressed the reason you have that view. At the time I described as being very similar to the view many premies have when they imagine life without Maharaji. Of course we know that premies are incorrect in this view, but I wonder whether you still hold this view regarding being atheist? I think it's part of the way we deal with our fear of the unknown - we paint it in a bad light so we don't have to face our fears. Can you imagine a world where 'real, true, unconditional, impartial love' is not the most powerful thing that there is? Love certainly is a strong motivational factor for humans, and I think we instinctively recognise its value for the survival of the species. Also, the feeling of 'transcendent' love is certainly a big high, and we like to get high. But you are making a bigger claim for love than this, and I wonder if you have thought about why you are doing this? What is the difference between your belief in Jesus, God, Love, and your recent belief in Maharaji? You have taken a huge step in challenging your belief in Maharaji, and I have no interest in making you an atheist or an agnostic or a 'don't know', but I think you owe it to yourself if you want to believe in God to do it for the right reasons, and not out of fear of the alternative. Regarding this forum, we do this sort of thing here:-) Love, John the don't know

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:19:13 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: The Beatles were more popular Message:

Than Jesus, at least that is what John Lennon said and I concur, at least with me anyway. That might not have been the popular conscenus at the time and John was put up to a halfhearted politically correct apology by his management at that time. I have read that he fought the decision but caved in to the wishes of the record executives etc. But for me, aside from the great entertainment factor the Beatles provided over the years, I have gotten more words of wisdom and inspiration from the Beatles than I have from that man who walked the earth 2000 years ago. We can work it Out, J. Lennon 'We can work it out, life is very short and theres no time for fussing and fighting my friend' Within you without you, G. Harrison 'We were talking about the space between us all and the people who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion, never glimpse the truth, then it's far too late, when they pass away. We were love with our love, try to realize it's all within yourself, life flows on within you without you. Another ex premie pearl from George called think for yourself, 'I've got a word or two to say about the things that you do you're telling all those lies about the good things that we can have if we close our eyes. Do what you want to do, and go where you're going to, think for yourself cause I won't be there with you' Nowhere man 'He's as blind as he can be , just sees what he wants to see, nowhere man can you see me at all J. Lennon I'm looking through you I'm looking through you, where did you go, I thought I knew you what did I know, You don't look different but you have changed, I'm looking through you you're not the same. You were above me but not today, the only difference is you're down there ... I'm looking through you and you're nowhere' Lennon McCartney Of course the great lyrics to Imagine which I don't even have to recite here, I'll bet most of you know them. The list goes on,Fool on the hill, across the Universe comes to mind, very heady stuff the Beatles produced, moreso now in hindsight. Brian a Beatles fan but no religious fanatic

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:05:12 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: The Beatles were more popular Message:

Yes, at least the Beatles spoke about their own lives. The folks who wrote about Jesus were not even around at the time he was alive. The New Testament was written too long after Jesus kicked the bucket (sorry Hyacinth, I meant bouquet) to be anything but myth. Jesus may have been an actual person but his story was intertwined with two existing myths - Dionysus and Osiris also both born of virgins and both rising from the dead after three days. Those ancient gods were in turn reincarnations of even older fertility gods. Paul of Tarsus pretty much invented Jesus with a little help from his friends, notably Timothy. Sorry - can't resist this - ''I thay, Timothy, would you pick up the thoap, pleathe? Praithe Jethuth!''

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 02:23:58 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Um, er, well, uh, um, hm........... Message:

Steve, If my expressing my opinion that Jesus was just a man, a deluded one at that, bothers you, I don't know what to say. On the one hand, many of us who've posted for a while here realize that there's little exes safely agree on other than that we were had. Thus, we try to stay away from contentious and unrelated topics here. If we don't all hell breaks loose. On the other hand, for someone like me who's walked away from all spirituality and not just the stuff that M's trip is nested in, I feel like challenging all beliefs in masters, avatars or assorted holy men and women. My guess is that Jesus' followers were duped every bit as much as M's. Indeed, I thought I was being generous to Jesus by giving him the benefit of doubt in terms of his sincerity. But here's the impasse. You want to talk freely about the strong power of universal love, listening with one's heart and other ideas that, to some, might be so universal and uncontroversial you can't imagine anyone questioning them. Truth is, however, that, to me at least, these are just another layer of concepts that are indeed questionable. In fact, I like to question them. So what to do? One answer, a route some more spiritually-inclined exes have taken, is to decamp from here and take shelter on the Recent Exes forum. That forum, I understand, is very spiritual-friendly. Plus, it carries the added bonus of discouraging argument. No one's going to challenge your ideas there or, if they do, they'll just do it a little. (That's what I'm told anyway.) Another answer, however, might be to enjoy the discussion wherever it goes. That means hanging in there, staying cool and leaving up for examination all kinds of closely-held, or even cherished, beliefs. Not everyone's ready for that. Especially after spending years, even decades, in a mind-numbing new age cult. But what can you do? We're out here, talking freely. We're not going to adjust downward, this is hard-won freedom. 'Freedom at last', and all that. The only option, I can see, is for new posters, or new exes, to think very carefully about exactly what they're reacting to when that's what's going on. Not everyone gets it but those who do grow to appreciate the robust nature of the exchanges. Not always, but often.

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:15:38 (EST) From: Pullaver Email: None To: Jim Subject: Well said, Jim. (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 02:43:43 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh Puleeze, the recent exes? Message:

Jim, So what to do? One answer, a route some more spiritually-inclined exes have taken, is to decamp from here and take shelter on the Recent Exes forum. That forum, I understand, is very spiritual-friendly. Plus, it carries the added bonus of discouraging argument. No one's going to challenge your ideas there or, if they do, they'll just do it a little. (That's what I'm told anyway.) I was involved in the recent exes forum for a short while. Believe me, at that point, it was quite boring and had nothing to do with spirituality, mostly about personal real life problems. I've no idea what it's like now. But, Steve can speak for himself. I didn't read the same thing you did in his post; I think he deserves a bit of slack being a pretty recent ex. I think Steve just doesn't want to see anybody hurt, either here nor there. By the way, Jim, thank your for the HyaCynth name. I loved it. Just noticed it a while ago. Cynth

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:27:43 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: But you HAVE to hurt people .... Message:

I think Steve just doesn't want to see anybody hurt, either here nor there. Cynth, How are you going to get any truth out of people if you don't break them first? I mean, you pretty well HAVE to hurt people if you want to get anywhere, don't you think? Sheesh! No, of course, no hurting allowed. By the way, here's a most interesting link I found. It's got several of the leading lights in evolution and related sciences and philosophy describing their interests and positions and then being commented upon by some of their peers. [ The Third Culture ]

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:47:27 (EST) From: JohnT Email: None To: Jim Subject: Thanks for the excellent link! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:36:32 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Jim Subject: The truth hurts Message:

especially when someone who is so invested in what they percieve to be reality is confronted with a whole new set of facts and information. It is painful to acknowledge what they have held near and dear for so long just doesn't stack up anymore. Therein lies the hurt, not in finding or knowing the truth, but in finally breaking down to admitting and owning up to the issue of having been duped. Most people stuck in deeply imbedded beliefs need a hammering to break through, some people don't but those types are the exception to the rule. It is not totally bad or wrong when people sometimes get righteously pissed off and angry. Anger can provide the impetus for improvement, Anger can be useful in provoking the energy to make the initial move towards change of position and viewpoint. It's a messy and often difficult emotionally heartwrenching process this exiting business. Anger and hurt are bound to be encountered, in fact they are necessary steps along the way if one ever wants to restore themselves to a normal existence free from the cult and m. To deny these basic emotions and feelings is to remove important steps along the way, steps that one will ultimately revisit sooner or later at some point or another, and that is being painfully honest. I got my toes stepped on when I first showed up here as a cult apologist, I was hurt by what others said to me initially. All I wanted to do was find someone here who would agree with me that my cozy little picture of M & K was just fine so that I could continue on and go back to my illusion. Now where would I be today if that in fact had happened? Thats right, still stuck in the cult, emotionally enslaved to M. I can't tell you how grateful I am that did not occur. I see now that the pain and hurt that I experienced was a necessary part of the process, I do not begrudge those who challenged my wrongly held concepts of what was really going on with m & the cult. I do not begrudge or hold anyothers responsible for any hurt or suffering induced by the factual inquiry I engaged in which eventually turned into restoration of my own free will. Today I celebrate all of it, and I acknowledge the committment of those who hammered me with the real truth because I could not have done it myself. I needed someone else to shake me awake, jostle me out of my stupor. I have benefited beyond measure for it.

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:59:03 (EST) From: Steve Mueller Email: None To: Jim Subject: Saying you have to hurt people Message:

How are you going to get any truth out of people if you don't break them first? I mean, you pretty well HAVE to hurt people if you want to get anywhere, don't you think? Sheesh! --- is just more glaring evidence of M's legacy of cruelty and hatred that has not yet been shed, IMO.

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:33:03 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Re: Saying you have to hurt people Message:

Steve, please talk to Jim by phone. He's sort of but not quite but really sort of like you know pulling your leg if you know what I mean. I guess what I mean is that to some of us nothing is sacred not even a PC sense of humor. Words like ''nurturing'' and ''healing'' and unconditional love'' bring out the worst in us. They are like finger nails on the blackboard of our inner platitude detectors. Whenever you have to explain words because they have arcane meanings you will know that you are flirting with nonsense. For instance - nurturing is what one does for helpless infants and plants. Healing is what doctors and nurses do to you in hospital when you're sick. Unconditional love is so esoteric that it is impossible to even begin to comprehend what it means in relation to human intercourse. BTW - There are some excellent articles in the link that Jim posted. I've already bookmarked it for later perusal. I'm hoping that you will learn as much here as you will teach and have as much fun as I am.

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:17:14 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Re: Saying you have to hurt people Message:

Steve, Jim's sense of humour can be a little subtle, but there was no cruelty and hatred in his posts in this thread. John.

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:11:58 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: God, Steve, it was just a joke! Message:

Sheesh!

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:11:08 (EST) From: Joy Email: None To: All Subject: Did the Hare Krishna lawsuit settle? Message:

Saw the following small piece in the paper today: HARE KRISHNA GROUPS WILL FILE FOR BANKRUPTCY About a dozen of the nearly 50 Hare Krishna temples in the United States will file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection this month because of a $400 million lawsuit over child abuse at Hare Krishna boarding schools, a representative of the movement said Friday. The plaintiffs in the lawsuit, filed in Texas, are 91 former students from around the world who allege that they were sexually, physically and emotionally abused at the boarding schools in Southern California, West Virginia and the state of Washington during the 1970s and 80s. All the schools have since shut down. _________ I was wondering if anybody had any info on this. Did the plaintiffs win? Remember that documentary called Children of Fear that was shown on PBS in the US awhile back? I don't know how many saw it, but it was chilling and it looks like they achieved their objective in busting the whole cult (I hope). Sure wish we could do that to Maharaji--$400 million, that would sure put a crimp in his style!

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 02:54:16 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joy Subject: Re: Did the Hare Krishna lawsuit settle? Message:

Hi Joy, As of today I think that the news is that they filed for Chapter 11 to avoid the damages $$$. I think the status of the suit is on hold for the moment. I do remember that documentary, though. It was quite rough, what the victims went through. Now they have to wait because of the bankruptcy filing. Sucks.

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 01:03:25 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Real people just don't quite cut it Message:

This little Expression of loneliness is from ELK. This poor woman seems to hvae pushed the world away because no one measures up to her fantasy guru: More time to focus within When I read Denise Wilsons' recent contribution to Expressions I totally related. I have lived alone for the last seven years and look forward to the weekly satellite broadcasts. People with Knowledge in my community stay to themselves but I usually meet them at events that Maharaji attend. There is the usual fleeting encounter on the street or at an art show at the local university. I have always been a loner and have respect for every individual to find their own expression of what it means to be alive at this time. My usual enthusiasm for any particular individual's accomplishments or expertise have revealed, in more indepth interactions, the absence of the spark of clarity and appreciation that I have found to be the most finely tuned in my master. No matter how many times I listen to him or see him, his words ring true and his presence is impeccable and sweet scented. To me if I had everything that I've ever wanted, I would still feel empty if I did not practise Knowledge. Magdeline Pereira Eureka, CA, USA

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 03:41:38 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: She's a nun Message:

When I looked at that pic of the Canadian premies the other day and saw Anne Johnson and remembered my encounters with her, I recalled what a nun she was. I've known (not in the biblical sense of course - do monks count?) quite a few nuns in my life and can spot one a mile away. This sweet woman, Ms Pereira, sounds like a Catholic Portuguese nun (Oh! Is it okay to say that? Is it PC? Maybe - as long as I don't say she's hunch-backed) caught up in a real life encounter with the LOTU. If she read and understood EPO she'd be very disappointed. Some people need devotion, solitude and piety. Being gregarious I don't move in their circles - oops, nuns don't have circles of friends. They're loners. Just them and Jesus or in this case a weekly satellite broadcast of the master whose purity should never be doubted, the highlight of a week spent waiting to see the living god in a bod on TV and writing out that sacred check for the propagation of peace to the world by the master without whom you cannot be saved. Yes, there still are PWKs like that - the very modest church ladies of the table cloth straightening variety. These guys are at the bottom of the cult food-chain, the bottom feeders, the ones who actually buy the cult crap tchotchkes and send checks. These are not the people who spend all their money buying guitars but end up as the ringers addressing M at by-invitation-only events. These are the ushers who had to take special training. (Yes, there is usher training too - believe me - you can't be an usher till you have attended a training session.) I'm looking forward to the arrival of on the forum of one of these premie nuns of either sex (no, unfortunately not the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.) Hell hath no fury like a church lady scorned. So far most of the recent arrivals have been a pretty down-to-earth bunch - many mavericks and Lone Rangers but no solitary nuns and don't say I didn't warn you about exhausting yourself arguing against New Agism. If you recall I said that the next wave would be fringe premies who are often even too spiritual for the really hip cultists and to expect to be exhausted and overwhelmed by New Age folks (JohnT commented at the time: ''I didn't know you knew my wife.'') and to reserve your strength. Just as well you are currently not in a posting frenzy. And just as well that my prediction was not completely right. Yet. I just hope that you don't give up. I for one have benefited enormously from your no-nonsense approach. Thanks, Jim.

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:22:46 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Can someone help me out here? Message:

Over on LG, some premie named Lou and I are arguing about whether the cult's waxing or waning. The premie was gloating about how some new person they know is actually getting interested in receiving K, to which I said: There will always be one or two people who somehow either don't get exposed to the truth about Maharaji first or who just aren't smart enough to put it altogether. But the reality is that people are indeed leaving the cult in droves. Attendance is down, contributions are down, sales are down and 'participation' is down. We all know that so what's the point pretending not? To which the premie responded: well, if it is such an obvious fact, prove it, name your witnesses, show your official statistics. If you can't, be a man and admit that you don't know this to be a fact. Come on, you can do this, mmmmmm? I know of the cult's dwindling enrollment second-hand as I haven't been involved -- thank God -- for decades. But can any of you help me answer this question with substance and specifics? Thanks, Jim

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:28:30 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Jim Subject: Yoram helped yesterday Message:

Didn't Yoram say donations for Amaroo were down by 50%? I doubt if all those premies moved their donations directly to Maharaji or Elan Vital so it's fair to assume all donations were down. But it's an interesting question - how do we measure it? There are no regular satsangs to count attendance at, so all we have are attendance at international events with Maharaji and the level of donations. Normally the latter is secret but Yoram has spilled a few beans on that. We know that 4-5000 attended Miami this year, and that many more attended the international programs in the late 70s, but although that proves a decline in the last 20 years it doesn't prove a recent decline. All we have for that is the number of exes coming here which is a fraction, but it's difficult to say how big a fraction, of the numbers exiting. I think Yoram's evidence is the key here. John.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 19:45:36 (EST) From: teresa Email: None To: All Subject: social exclusion Message:

after being introduced to this site a week ago I've been wondering why it was so interesting to someone who last saw m about 6 years ago in Brighton and realised that if truth is the conciousness of mercedes then it was all too subtle for me and yet perhaps it was me perhaps truth did lurk beneath the smile of the Steptford wives what I'd really like to know is does m act as consultant to our own home grown god tony blair for it is he who is bringing peace to all mankind now now when I encounter that peculiar smug smile of the saved I wont feel quite so alone thank you all

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:34:09 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: teresa Subject: TB was in the God Squad at Oxford Message:

Apart from that I don't think there's a connection. That Brighton event you mention . Was that the one where he took the piss out of the Indian premies,or the one where he took the piss out of the old lags who'd misinterpreted the nectar teck? I was just a spiritual tourist by then,went along for old time's sake. That conditioning went deep though didn't it.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:01:58 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: teresa Subject: Welcome, Teresa Message:

Hi Teresa, Welcome! This forum and www.ex-premie.org is interesting because we invested a lot in Maharaji, and need to understand what happened to our investment. Well, we are older and wiser, and Maharaji is older and richer. By the way, do we know each other? John Brauns

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:12:18 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: All Subject: Jim! This is some of the..... Message:

shit I have read here! I was crapping my pants on the floor! Thanks man. A little late but, man was that funny. [ http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/claimscm.htm ]

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:06:42 (EST) From: Janet Email: jai_choix@yahoo.com To: All Subject: copyleft-we're doing it! Message:

document.write(''); The Great Giveaway Good ideas are worth money. So why are hard headed operators giving them away for free? Join our experiment to find out says Graham Lawton IF YOU'VE BEEN to a computer show in recent months you might have seen it: a shiny silver drinks can with a ring-pull logo and the words 'opencola' on the side. Inside is a fizzy drink that tastes very much like Coca-Cola. Or is it Pepsi? There's something else written on the can, though, which sets the drink apart. It says 'check out the source at opencola.com'. Go to that Web address and you'll see something that's not available on Coca-Cola's website, or Pepsi's--the recipe for cola. For the first time ever, you can make the real thing in your own home. OpenCola is the world's first 'open source' consumer product. By calling it open source, its manufacturer is saying that instructions for making it are freely available. Anybody can make the drink, and anyone can modify and improve on the recipe as long as they, too, release their recipe into the public domain. As a way of doing business it's rather unusual--the Coca-Cola Company doesn't make a habit of giving away precious commercial secrets. But that's the point. OpenCola is the most prominent sign yet that a long-running battle between rival philosophies in software development has spilt over into the rest of the world. What started as a technical debate over the best way to debug computer programs is developing into a political battle over the ownership of knowledge and how it is used, between those who put their faith in the free circulation of ideas and those who prefer to designate them 'intellectual property'. No one knows what the outcome will be. But in a world of growing opposition to corporate power, restrictive intellectual property rights and globalisation, open source is emerging as a possible alternative, a potentially potent means of fighting back. And you're helping to test its value right now. The open source movement originated in 1984 when computer scientist Richard Stallman quit his job at MIT and set up the Free Software Foundation. His aim was to create high-quality software that was freely available to everybody. Stallman's beef was with commercial companies that smother their software with patents and copyrights and keep the source code--the original program, written in a computer language such as C++--a closely guarded secret. Stallman saw this as damaging. It generated poor-quality, bug-ridden software. And worse, it choked off the free flow of ideas. Stallman fretted that if computer scientists could no longer learn from one another's code, the art of programming would stagnate (New Scientist, 12 December 1998, p 42). Stallman's move resonated round the computer science community and now there are thousands of similar projects. The star of the movement is Linux, an operating system created by Finnish student Linus Torvalds in the early 1990s and installed on around 18 million computers worldwide. What sets open source software apart from commercial software is the fact that it's free, in both the political and the economic sense. If you want to use a commercial product such as Windows XP or Mac OS X you have to pay a fee and agree to abide by a licence that stops you from modifying or sharing the software. But if you want to run Linux or another open source package, you can do so without paying a penny--although several companies will sell you the software bundled with support services. You can also modify the software in any way you choose, copy it and share it without restrictions. This freedom acts as an open invitation--some say challenge--to its users to make improvements. As a result, thousands of volunteers are constantly working on Linux, adding new features and winkling out bugs. Their contributions are reviewed by a panel and the best ones are added to Linux. For programmers, the kudos of a successful contribution is its own reward. The result is a stable, powerful system that adapts rapidly to technological change. Linux is so successful that even IBM installs it on the computers it sells. To maintain this benign state of affairs, open source software is covered by a special legal instrument called the General Public License. Instead of restricting how the software can be used, as a standard software license does, the GPL--often known as a 'copyleft'--grants as much freedom as possible (see http://www.fsf.org/licenses/gpl.html). Software released under the GPL (or a similar copyleft licence) can be copied, modified and distributed by anyone, as long as they, too, release it under a copyleft. That restriction is crucial, because it prevents the material from being co-opted into later proprietary products. It also makes open source software different from programs that are merely distributed free of charge. In FSF's words, the GPL 'makes it free and guarantees it remains free'. Open source has proved a very successful way of writing software. But it has also come to embody a political stand--one that values freedom of expression, mistrusts corporate power, and is uncomfortable with private ownership of knowledge. It's 'a broadly libertarian view of the proper relationship between individuals and institutions', according to open source guru Eric Raymond. But it's not just software companies that lock knowledge away and release it only to those prepared to pay. Every time you buy a CD, a book, a copy of New Scientist, even a can of Coca-Cola, you're forking out for access to someone else's intellectual property. Your money buys you the right to listen to, read or consume the contents, but not to rework them, or make copies and redistribute them. No surprise, then, that people within the open source movement have asked whether their methods would work on other products. As yet no one's sure--but plenty of people are trying it. Take OpenCola. Although originally intended as a promotional tool to explain open source software, the drink has taken on a life of its own. The Toronto-based OpenCola company has become better known for the drink than the software it was supposed to promote. Laird Brown, the company's senior strategist, attributes its success to a widespread mistrust of big corporations and the 'proprietary nature of almost everything'. A website selling the stuff has shifted 150,000 cans. Politically minded students in the US have started mixing up the recipe for parties. OpenCola is a happy accident and poses no real threat to Coke or Pepsi, but elsewhere people are deliberately using the open source model to challenge entrenched interests. One popular target is the music industry. At the forefront of the attack is the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a San Francisco group set up to defend civil liberties in the digital society. In April of last year, the EFF published a model copyleft called the Open Audio License (OAL). The idea is to let musicians take advantage of digital music's properties--ease of copying and distribution--rather than fighting against them. Musicians who release music under an OAL consent to their work being freely copied, performed, reworked and reissued, as long as these new products are released under the same licence. They can then rely on 'viral distribution' to get heard. 'If the people like the music, they will support the artist to ensure the artist can continue to make music,' says Robin Gross of the EFF. It's a little early to judge whether the OAL will capture imaginations in the same way as OpenCola. But it's already clear that some of the strengths of open source software simply don't apply to music. In computing, the open source method lets users improve software by eliminating errors and inefficient bits of code, but it's not obvious how that might happen with music. In fact, the music is not really 'open source' at all. The files posted on the OAL music website http://www.openmusicregistry.org so far are all MP3s and Ogg Vorbises--formats which allow you to listen but not to modify. It's also not clear why any mainstream artists would ever choose to release music under an OAL. Many bands objected to the way Napster members circulated their music behind their backs, so why would they now allow unrestricted distribution, or consent to strangers fiddling round with their music? Sure enough, you're unlikely to have heard of any of the 20 bands that have posted music on the registry. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that Open Audio amounts to little more than an opportunity for obscure artists to put themselves in the shop window. The problems with open music, however, haven't put people off trying open source methods elsewhere. Encyclopedias, for example, look like fertile ground. Like software, they're collaborative and modular, need regular upgrading, and improve with peer review. But the first attempt, a free online reference called Nupedia, hasn't exactly taken off. Two years on, only 25 of its target 60,000 articles have been completed. 'At the current rate it will never be a large encyclopedia,' says editor-in-chief Larry Sanger. The main problem is that the experts Sanger wants to recruit to write articles have little incentive to participate. They don't score academic brownie points in the same way software engineers do for upgrading Linux, and Nupedia can't pay them. It's a problem that's inherent to most open source products: how do you get people to chip in? Sanger says he's exploring ways to make money out of Nupedia while preserving the freedom of its content. Banner adverts are a possibility. But his best hope is that academics start citing Nupedia articles so authors can earn academic credit. There's another possibility: trust the collective goodwill of the open source community. A year ago, frustrated by the treacle-like progress of Nupedia, Sanger started another encyclopedia named Wikipedia (the name is taken from open source Web software called WikiWiki that allows pages to be edited by anyone on the Web). It's a lot less formal than Nupedia: anyone can write or edit an article on any topic, which probably explains the entries on beer and Star Trek. But it also explains its success. Wikipedia already contains 19,000 articles and is acquiring several thousand more each month. 'People like the idea that knowledge can and should be freely distributed and developed,' says Sanger. Over time, he reckons, thousands of dabblers should gradually fix any errors and fill in any gaps in the articles until Wikipedia evolves into an authoritative encyclopedia with hundreds of thousands of entries. Another experiment that's proved its worth is the OpenLaw project at the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard Law School. Berkman lawyers specialise in cyberlaw--hacking, copyright, encryption and so on--and the centre has strong ties with the EFF and the open source software community. In 1998 faculty member Lawrence Lessig, now at Stanford Law School, was asked by online publisher Eldritch Press to mount a legal challenge to US copyright law. Eldritch takes books whose copyright has expired and publishes them on the Web, but new legislation to extend copyright from 50 to 70 years after the author's death was cutting off its supply of new material. Lessig invited law students at Harvard and elsewhere to help craft legal arguments challenging the new law on an online forum, which evolved into OpenLaw. Normal law firms write arguments the way commercial software companies write code. Lawyers discuss a case behind closed doors, and although their final product is released in court, the discussions or 'source code' that produced it remain secret. In contrast, OpenLaw crafts its arguments in public and releases them under a copyleft. 'We deliberately used free software as a model,' says Wendy Selzer, who took over OpenLaw when Lessig moved to Stanford. Around 50 legal scholars now work on Eldritch's case, and OpenLaw has taken other cases, too. 'The gains are much the same as for software,' Selzer says. 'Hundreds of people scrutinise the 'code' for bugs, and make suggestions how to fix it. And people will take underdeveloped parts of the argument, work on them, then patch them in.' Armed with arguments crafted in this way, OpenLaw has taken Eldritch's case--deemed unwinnable at the outset--right through the system and is now seeking a hearing in the Supreme Court. There are drawbacks, though. The arguments are in the public domain right from the start, so OpenLaw can't spring a surprise in court. For the same reason, it can't take on cases where confidentiality is important. But where there's a strong public interest element, open sourcing has big advantages. Citizens' rights groups, for example, have taken parts of OpenLaw's legal arguments and used them elsewhere. 'People use them on letters to Congress, or put them on flyers,' Selzer says. The open content movement is still at an early stage and it's hard to predict how far it will spread. 'I'm not sure there are other areas where open source would work,' says Sanger. 'If there were, we might have started it ourselves.' Eric Raymond has also expressed doubts. In his much-quoted 1997 essay, The Cathedral and the Bazaar, he warned against applying open source methods to other products. 'Music and most books are not like software, because they don't generally need to be debugged or maintained,' he wrote. Without that need, the products gain little from others' scrutiny and reworking, so there's little benefit in open sourcing. 'I do not want to weaken the winning argument for open sourcing software by tying it to a potential loser,' he wrote. But Raymond's views have now shifted subtly. 'I'm more willing to admit that I might talk about areas other than software someday,' he told New Scientist. 'But not now.' The right time will be once open source software has won the battle of ideas, he says. He expects that to happen around 2005. And so the experiment goes on. As a contribution to it, New Scientist has agreed to issue this article under a copyleft. That means you can copy it, redistribute it, reprint it in whole or in part, and generally play around with it as long as you, too, release your version under a copyleft and abide by the other terms and conditions in the licence. We also ask that you inform us of any use you make of the article, by e-mailing copyleft@newscientist.com. One reason for doing so is that by releasing it under a copyleft, we can print the recipe for OpenCola without violating its copyleft. If nothing else, that demonstrates the power of the copyleft to spread itself. But there's another reason, too: to see what happens. To my knowledge this is the first magazine article published under a copyleft. Who knows what the outcome will be? Perhaps the article will disappear without a trace. Perhaps it will be photocopied, redistributed, re-edited, rewritten, cut and pasted onto websites, handbills and articles all over the world. I don't know--but that's the point. It's not up to me any more. The decision belongs to all of us. Further reading: For a selection of copylefts, see http://www.eff.org/IP/Open_licenses/open_alternatives.html The Cathedral and the Bazaar by Eric Raymond is available at http://tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ Editor's comment THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS FREE. It may be copied, distributed and/or modified under the conditions set down in the Design Science License published by Michael Stutz at http://dsl.org/copyleft/dsl.txt       About newscientist.com •  Contact Us •  FAQ •  Media Information •  Disclaimer •  Site Map •  Privacy Policy  Jump to .. Home Jobs Subscribe Archive ___________________ News Hot Topics The Last Word Feedback Letters Books Interviews Web Links

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:50:58 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Janet Subject: Re: copyleft-let me explain this Message:

I wanted to bring this here as part of a great experiment, being opened on the web. bear with the wasted space that my copying the html code verbatim caused. when I lifted this, I really did not know how it would come out on the post, and i don't have the 'edit' capability that most of you do when posting. so forgive me for the moment. I don't expect this to happen again. that said--to the central reason. as you read the article, you may come to understand that this is about taking the jealous possessive guards away from the pernicious notion that corporations and people 'own' information and KNOWLEDGE , and thus can legally force you to pay them in order to have what they know. or in cases like the tobacco complanies, coca cola, microsoft, etc, you can't get your hands on the recipe, you can only buy the product, and would be attacked viciously if you ever did get ahold of the information and make it public, because they get stinking rich by keeping it a secret. the copyleft movement is in direction opposite to this, and as I read this, I realized that we, here at EPO are doing exactly this, in our freewheeling public deconstruction of Mharaji and Knowledge and all that he does. He has made his fortune by jealously keeping secret as much as he possibly can, and we here have been undoing that secrecy and power by making it open source, up to and including the fabled Four Techniques, which are on EPO for anyone to obtain. I had hoped to insert my own contribution to the article, in the process of posting it, which i could have accomplished, by adding my own ideas in the text, but as I didn't know if my taking the page to my favorite code revealer site and then copying it was even going to work--at the authors' invitation, as you can see in the article- I had to try just putting it up here first, before contributing to it. Jim and Marianne ought to get interested in the Open Law project, for the rich resource it affords them in their respective practices, since law is such an ongoing arena of hairsplitting debate and fine tuning arguments. The rest of us, I wanted you all to know, that we are already a part of this move, and that we might well consider actually making it official on our masthead, as a direct defense to all that bs of 'copyright violation' that maharaji's lawyers have tried to use in the past, to silence us, to prevent us from publishing his historic satsangs [which he so badly wants to deny he ever uttered], and all the other angles that they have attempted to employ in getting us to just shut up and go away. I realize that open sourcing can lead to being quoted out of context, distorted, and otherwise staining a reputation, but that happens now, anyway. We already have good ways of restablishing the correct original when the error is circulating. Think urban legends. Think snopes. the notion of having as many minds possible working on a thing, finding its weaknesses, improving it voluntarily, refining its characteristics, passing it on freely, and having it be an ongoing phenomenon is ripe for the time. Its a logical outgrowth of the internet, --the connecting, applying, multiplying and depositing all our collective intelligence where we can all tap into it, as needed or inspired, is an unstoppable characteristic of our inborn need to know. this is not Off topic to our central reason for meeting here. If anything, it's the very soul of why we meet here, and I just wanted to make it an overt benchmark, so you all could congratulate yourselves for being in it!! we are doing it, people. the times are with us, and not with him. there is nothing as powerful as an idea whose time has come. and as the article encourages, feel free to lift it, in part, in full, rework it to your perfection, pass it on, pass it back, and just generally join the movement. I have written to the original , letting them know I put this here, so they can come see what I did with it. BTW--the 'copyleft' symbol is the © symbol, stood on its head or in a mirror image. it was supposed to be in the square above the text, but the image didn't follow me over here. neither did the recipe for opencola--but I can bring that over as a provision of the open source agreement. It'll be under this post. We could put the copyleft symbol on our pages, big and impossible to miss, to make it clear to anyone that what's here is for anyone to use and take elsewhere, for the purpose and the cause. I have always been a big believer in the 'Sunshine Laws'--the belief that all transactions should be conducted openly in the public eye, that if a thing has to be done hidden in secret, then it has no business taking place at all, that if a thing can't stand the light of day, then it is'nt fit to exist anyway, and the more a thing is opened, the more we can see it and improve it. that goes for people as well as corporations and organizations. so on we go! '!¡ let's tear the roof off the sucker, unh! unh!'

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 19:11:53 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: janet Subject: Readability info and a suggestion Message:

Janet, I found the first post in this thread unreadable using Netscape 4.72 (Netscape tries to load a non-existant page in Hotboards), and very unfriendly but readable using IE, which is a pity as the subject matter is interesting. May I suggest that instead of trying to copy a webpage into a post, that you simply give the link? Anyway, to the subject. I'm not sure we're really engaging in Copyleft. Of course we want the info posted here and on EPO to be freely distributed - that's the purpose of the site, distributing the information. As the article says, the problem of getting participation in a copyleft project is incentive. If people aren't being paid for their efforts, then they need some other incentive. The author cites the kudos that software people get from contributing to Linux, but it's not so clear for other projects. In ex-premie land the reward is the new ex-premies thanks. John.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:13:34 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Readability -yeah i know Message:

I thought about it [just linking], but then i decided the challenge of trying it and the invitation to take something wholesale without copyright was just too intriguing. if i had it to do over again, I'd edit out a lot of the unneccessary code and trim it down--but i couldn't play with it in preview and edit, like you guys can. WEBTV doesn't register with the site's software for that, right. but i had fun. i promise--I won't be doing it again.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 19:03:52 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: janet Subject: Re: copyleft-let me explain this Message:

as per the open source agreement, here are the copy left logo, and the recipe for OpenCola, which were in the original article, and were supposed to translate over here with it, to carry out my part of the bargain.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 17:58:42 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: All Subject: Called up 23 on M's website search! Message:

[ http://www.picosearch.com/cgi-bin/ts.pl ]

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:02:06 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Barry Subject: Oh well? Message:

No shit! I was at M's site and I used his special little site search botton. I put in the wards cult, fraud, phony, scam, and got 23 documents containing these words I guess. I read a couple and they apeared to be some pretty unsatisfied costomers.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:23:34 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Barry Subject: Which site Barry? Message:

maharaji.org ? or Elanvital? If maharaji.org.....where's the search button? Couldn't see it. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:43:08 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Right here! Message:

just mess the search. If you put in ex-premie.org-then some words like culthead, fraud, scam etc...you'll see a certain number of files come up. weird though, when I just went back there, and I clicked on the numbers-a bunch of premie shit comes up? Also, have you seen maharaji.net (not org!) kooky man! later [ http://www.primeacademy.com.my/index2.htm ]

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:49:30 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: All Subject: They don't know what's going on Message:

It is becoming more and more apparent to me just how little premies know about what is going on. In the last week I have told two people about the Jagdeo revelations and IT WAS THE FIRST TIME EITHER OF THEM HAD HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT IT. One of them is now becoming an ex (WPC girl). The other I just spoke to this morning. I told her about Jagdeo, Fakiranand and the yacht. She knew nothing about any of it. I wasn't worried about destabilising her too abruptly because she has been drifting off for a while now. She listened and at first said she didn't care about all that stuff, but gradually as she took it all in, she began to use her discrimination and said she'd have to seriously think about it all. And knowing her as I do, she will. I couldn't have had that converation with a premie who was going to videos all the time - they are just too brainwashed, almost scarily so. This is all becoming clearer and clearer to me. My second friend is going to read EPO when she gets back from holiday; she's distanced enough not to worry about any command from on high not to look at it. The seriously brainwashed ones DAREN'T look at it in case Maharaji somehow knows, and PUNISHES them! I know this to be true, because (embarrassingly) it's what I felt when I first had a look a couple of years ago. I felt sort of guilty, and thought that everyone there was seriously 'in their minds'. I even remember having a conversation with a premie about it, and we both agreed that the people on EPO and the forums are still 'obsessed' by M and K. We thought: if they've had enough, why don't they just walk away? M seems to be so oblivious to how the Jagdeo issue and his refusal to face it, has caused and will continue to cause people to leave in droves. It makes him look so BAD. In order to remain in the cult while knowing about the Jagdeo issue, a premie has to engage in serious disassociation of the type spoken about in a thread below. They have to enter an extremely dubious moral universe, and seem unable to see that the morals there are a million miles from the spiritual values that probably drew them to and kept them with M and K in the first place. It's all so weird, and it's probably morally damaging to them as well. Another thing: I was talking on the phone on Thursday night to a premie about the forthcoming phone thing with Yorum Weiss. She knew what it was all going to be about - the dismantling of EV etc. I asked her what she thought about it all and she said: 'Oh, it's really beautiful!' And I knew immediately that if M was about to quadruple the size and activities of EV, and I had asked her the same question, she would have said: 'Oh, it's really beautiful!' In other words, it all comes down to them thinking that whatever he does is perfect because he is perfect. (They don't really let themselves think he's 'The Lord' any more, but they have this new catch-phrase: the purity of the master.) But here is some double-think: they also now allow themselves to believe he is imperfect in some ways, he gets things wrong occasionally like he can be chauvinistic, or he likes dirty jokes, smokes, drinks (a little), eats red meat. Maybe doesn't even meditate! And somehow that's all fine. And if you challenge them on the logical front, they sneer at the concept of 'logic'. God, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. I suppose soon the only people left will be the seriously deluded, morally and ethically vacuous shadows of the people they once were. Phew. With love, Livia

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:30:12 (EST) From: Bryn Email: None To: Livia Subject: The idea of going to hell Message:

I have heard and felt a lot of this notion in recent weeks. It's much more common than I had realised, and it surfaces in all sorts of areas, not just in the religious department. I noticed it recently in someone's relationship issue. They had demonised their ex, imputing to them supernatural powers of action in the world. A teacher I know would not let me use a certain room, because the regular occupant, then long absent would not approve of what I was going to use it for (music and dance). When I said there was no need to tell them, the teacher looked restless and said no ' he'd know'. The situation was a closed one and there was no way, unless told, they would have found out. I had it myself, recently when after 'gossiping' about someone,I left with the feeling that there would be dire consequences. When I checked out in my memory what I had actually said, I discovered that my words were all perfectly true, and I'd been speaking out of a sincere need for expression to a genuinely receptive and discriminating person. I spent time with some very 'religious' people. Their 'nice' demeanour was all very civilised, but at times it looked like hyper- vigiance, based on the assumption that their cute behaviour would pre-empt some ever-observant and malicious presence from moving against them in some way. The list goes on. Maharaji is great panacea. When the self splits, and the left half becomes afraid of the right, he steps in and subdues both. Great! At least then they both know who they are scared of. Rejoice in the Lord. Bollocks. Love Bryn

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:55:51 (EST) From: Francesca :~) Email: None To: Bryn Subject: When my sides split Message:

The whole thing was great, but esp. loved this: The list goes on. Maharaji is great panacea. When the self splits, and the left half becomes afraid of the right, he steps in and subdues both. Great! At least then they both know who they are scared of. Rejoice in the Lord. Bollocks. Remember that Kim (Fields) O'Leary song from One Foundation, 'You are always there'? When all my thoughts like enemies surround me You are always there within me.' All I need is my thoughts AND him. Now THAT is scary. That is a dire consequence, that one! I, for one, am glad that he is not inside my heart, inside my mind, is NOT the very essence of whatever the heck I am. Becoming an ex is a form of exorcism. Out, out damned Rawat!!! Bryn, thanks for the thought provoking post. Bests, --f

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 02:10:39 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Francesca :~) Subject: How about this one, Fran... Message:

Francesca, I remember that song very well. It was one song I always thought to be so dark I would skip over it. Here's another one that I had a cat fight (we didn't actually scratch eachother, but she was housemother) with another singer in Hartford because I was asked to sing it by the cc in our band, and she wanted to sing it, so neither of us sang it. Thank God. Maharaji I am bound to you by love and devotion you have saved, me freed me from the deepest darkest ocean Maharji I am lost without you afraid to doubt you too in love to turn away Maharaji all the world will bow before you blaa blaa blaa, can't remember the rest of the verse because Kim was mumbling. I love the very air you breathe Each ray of sun that warms your body You reside within an infinite ocean Of love and devotion Of love and devotion Of love and devotion ad infinitum, ad nauseam Now this song I loved because it made me feel MORE longing for darshan. Interestingly, in 1998, I saw a video can't remember which one, but it was a sort of ''retrospective of maharaji.'' It actually showed scenes of him in the apple cart, the one in Kissimmee, but only his back--now this is 1998 when this song was played. Just the first two bars. I have an old bootleg tape, many times recorded, of most of the music of that festival, with excerpts of m giving satsang. 'One word of maharaji's satsang! What is the price of that word!' The heavy afternoon one that everyone left feeling like shit. That would be interesting to hear again, but the tape is very old. It also has Marolyn singing to m: 'I can't stop falling in love with you' and 'Black is the color of my Lord's (supposed to be love's hair)' Why did I just remember all that?

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:39:30 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: None To: Livia Subject: It takes a drip or two Message:

Livia, You wrote: <> Very scary stuff. Methinks things haven't changed all that much since I was a premie from 1975 to the early 80s. I can remember thinking that all of M's 'vices' were probably just a test for me. I needed to see past the things that he did in the physical plane and see only the 'purity of the Master.' If I focused on those things and felt that they were incongrous or wrong then I was focusing on the maya and I was 'in my mind.' And of course, how can you apply logic to 'lila?' I couldn't apply the standards that I was living with as an Ashram premie to M because he was perfect and I was only striving for a mere experience of that perfection. So who was I to say that his having a wife and a family and a penchant for expensive things was wrong -- he was my Perfect Master and who was I to question or even understand his choices for this manifestation. (Man, I was in deep!)I didn't know then what I know now. I often wonder how I would have felt if I had know the truth about M's excesses and his lifestyle when I was a premie. When I was in deep I probably would have reacted in the manner you say most PWKs react now. Most of this stuff is enough to cause a serious brain melt down for those who believe that the mere act of contemplating it in their own minds is an act of treason. If I had heard it as I was on my way out, it would have probably been the major drip to get me out the door even faster. As it was, I kind of oozed out of premiedom. Part of my exiting process hinged on the fact that my new boyfriend couldn't stand socializing with premies. It was kind of like having a cocktail party with friends from work and having Peter Pan and the Lost Boys show up and want to play. Another part was that I felt I was ready to leave Neverland and return to the real world, ready to take on the challenges of a grown-up in a grown-up world -- something that my life as a PWK hadn't prepared me to do. Then there was my growing relationship with my now husband. Meeting him made me realize that there were other ways to deal with things I didn't like about life and the world around me that didn't involve retreating into K and the fantasy world created around it. Bravo and best of luck to your friends, if they are anything like me, they probably have to experience a drip or two or three before they can let in the truth. Warmly, Susan

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:32:16 (EST) From: You want drips? Email: None To: Suedoula Subject: This is the place Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:25:19 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: You want drips? Subject: drips? I'm showering in em Message:

it's a lovely shower of drips, thank you. a downpour of the wholly game. I get cleaner with every passing storm. ahhhh. precipitation is wonderful, innit? leave no room for drought in your mind.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 22:13:43 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: janet Subject: drips? I'm showering in em...Janet LOL... Message:

Janet: it's a lovely shower of drips, thank you. a downpour of the wholly game. I get cleaner with every passing storm. ahhhh. precipitation is wonderful, innit? leave no room for drought in your mind. You amaze me, Janet. That's a Hall Of Famer in my book. I'm keeping a copy to put on by bulletin board. Copyright to you of course. I envy you because your mind is like a steel trap. Once you learn something it's there at your disposal. Have you always been this way? I have such difficulty with short term memory retention. I was reading this thread and feeling some comfort. I'm not alone in the rainstorm. I read so much but then it feels as if it's there in my brain, but I can't access it. I don't know how to change it. I've tried everything I know. Then you come along with that poem? And I got a belly laugh. Thank you.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:17:09 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: You want drips? Subject: Seething troubles? Message:

Articulate, heartfelt, pursuasive. Your impotent jibe typifies the average premie's inability to cope with what they read here, still less deal with it. Thanks for the reminder.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:41:08 (EST) From: Suedoula Email: None To: Suedoula Subject: Re: It takes a drip or two Message:

Sorry, the piece I quoted didn't show up -- here it is: In other words, it all comes down to them thinking that whatever he does is perfect because he is perfect. (They don't really let themselves think he's 'The Lord' any more, but they have this new catch-phrase: the purity of the master.) But here is some double-think: they also now allow themselves to believe he is imperfect in some ways, he gets things wrong occasionally like he can be chauvinistic, or he likes dirty jokes, smokes, drinks (a little), eats red meat. Maybe doesn't even meditate! And somehow that's all fine. And if you challenge them on the logical front, they sneer at the concept of 'logic'. God, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. Sorry about that! Susan

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:45:14 (EST) From: Francesca Email: None To: Livia Subject: **BEST OF FORUM*** Livia Message:

The fear of going to some sort of hell has been spoken of by recent exiters on and off this board. I'm glad to know that some folks that are drifting in the shadows of the cult are having an easier time breaking free than the gopis. Thanks for taking the time to get this all out! peace and love, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:51:26 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Francesca Subject: and **BEST OF FORUM*** Suedola too! (nt) Message:

and **BEST OF FORUM*** Suedola too!

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:15:50 (EST) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: cq Subject: And SUEDOLA too (nt) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 22:19:06 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Francesca :) Subject: ***BEST OF to Livia,Suedoula, Janet*** [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:11:53 (EST) From: Steve Mueller Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net To: Cynthia Subject: Best of ... second that emotion, indeed Message:

A cornerstone of the brainwashing that keeps Catholics in a permanent state of fear and emotional subjugation to the pope and his clergy is: GUILT. GUILT paralyzes, imprisons and emotionally cripples a person. It is the number one thing that prevents a person from enjoying real personal freedom. Even though technically M is on record (I heard him say this at least a couple times in the late 90's) as admonishing premies to NOT feel GUILT (no surprise there - he needed to say that to forgive himself for his own outrageous immoral behaviors), the fact remains that everything about the perfect master / student(er, slave) relationship, especially the insidious, diabolical, sick and evil way that M conducts himself induces in premies a sense of inferiority, of subservience to him as a supreme being, of a need to not only please their Godfather but especially to not displease him. I have previously posted that due to astounding meditation experiences I have had, I HAVE realized how unbelievably compassionate, totally self-satisfied, and completely unconcerned with anything like GUILT is the infinite energy that supports and sustains me. Because of this for several years now I have not been plagued by the kinds of GUILT feelings that I have seen torturing serious orthodox Catholics and active premies. I mentioned previously that I was very close, very tight with a dear premie lady for nearly eight years. One of the main things that I observed dragging her down was her constantly being plagued with feelings of guilt. (She oftentimes would say: 'M was not happy with me. He knew what I was doing.') Much of the supportive 'satsang' I gave her over the years was trying to convince her that there was no such thing as GUILT, that the infinite energy sustaining her was so perfectly content that it had no reason to feel or capacity for feeling sadness over the supposed 'shortcomings' of humans. It didn't care. It was content just to be itself. Unfortunately, she was one of those really hardcore premies whose brainwashing was so thorough that there was just no way I could get through to her to accept this. That's all I could tell her at the time because I had not yet exed and had not yet fully understood myself how, even though M denied it, I think that, devious and sneaky power tripper that he is, he fully understood (having attended Catholic grade school himself) that premies feeling guilt over whatever ('sins of omission': ie, not practicing K or 'sins of commission': drugs, alcohol, masturbation, etc) served the purpose of keeping them in a permanent state of subjugation (submission) to him. He knew what he was doing, the bastard, I'm sure of it. It was essential in order to keep their bucks rolling in. Yes, GUILT is a mind control as well as a political control device used not only by the Catholic church but also by M. If only all of them could open their eyes and see the evil that those religions are inflicting on them. And make no mistake about it: Maharajism has definitely deteriorated and crystalized into a world religion. Again, they just don't realize it yet.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:48:38 (EST) From: Livia Email: None To: All Subject: Message:

It is becoming more and more apparent to me just how little premies know about what is going on. In the last week I have told two people about the Jagdeo revelations and IT WAS THE FIRST TIME EITHER OF THEM HAD HEARD ANYTHING ABOUT IT. One of them is now becoming an ex (WPC girl). The other I just spoke to this morning. I told her about Jagdeo, Fakiranand and the yacht. She knew nothing about any of it. I wasn't worried about destabilising her too abruptly because she has been drifting off for a while now. She listened and at first said she didn't care about all that stuff, but gradually as she took it all in, she began to use her discrimination and said she'd have to seriously think about it all. And knowing her as I do, she will. I couldn't have had that converation with a premie who was going to videos all the time - they are just too brainwashed, almost scarily so. This is all becoming clearer and clearer to me. My second friend is going to read EPO when she gets back from holiday; she's distanced enough not to worry about any command from on high not to look at it. The seriously brainwashed ones DAREN'T look at it in case Maharaji somehow knows, and PUNISHES them! I know this to be true, because (embarrassingly) it's what I felt when I first had a look a couple of years ago. I felt sort of guilty, and thought that everyone there was seriously 'in their minds'. I even remember having a conversation with a premie about it, and we both agreed that the people on EPO and the forums are still 'obsessed' by M and K. We thought: if they've had enough, why don't they just walk away? M seems to be so oblivious to how the Jagdeo issue and his refusal to face it, has caused and will continue to cause people to leave in droves. It makes him look so BAD. In order to remain in the cult while knowing about the Jagdeo issue, a premie has to engage in serious disassociation of the type spoken about in a thread below. They have to enter an extremely dubious moral universe, and seem unable to see that the morals there are a million miles from the spiritual values that probably drew them to and kept them with M and K in the first place. It's all so weird, and it's probably morally damaging to them as well. Another thing: I was talking on the phone on Thursday night to a premie about the forthcoming phone thing with Yorum Weiss. She knew what it was all going to be about - the dismantling of EV etc. I asked her what she thought about it all and she said: 'Oh, it's really beautiful!' And I knew immediately that if M was about to quadruple the size and activities of EV, and I had asked her the same question, she would have said: 'Oh, it's really beautiful!' In other words, it all comes down to them thinking that whatever he does is perfect because he is perfect. (They don't really let themselves think he's 'The Lord' any more, but they have this new catch-phrase: the purity of the master.) But here is some double-think: they also now allow themselves to believe he is imperfect in some ways, he gets things wrong occasionally like he can be chauvinistic, or he likes dirty jokes, smokes, drinks (a little), eats red meat. Maybe doesn't even meditate! And somehow that's all fine. And if you challenge them on the logical front, they sneer at the concept of 'logic'. God, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. I suppose soon the only people left will be the seriously deluded, morally and ethically vacuous shadows of the people they once were. Phew. With love, Livia

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:43:34 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: All Subject: M: plain ignorant? or deliberate liar? Message:

Verbatim quote , Maharaji, from the Nottingham 30th anniversary event: "I tell you this because ... you also know this is real. There is nothing in this life that will go with you 'til the very end. The only thing is: your breath - that will be there, 'til the very end. That's it. No science, no technicality, no technical publications, no ... (yells) ... NOTHING! ... will put you in touch with that breath except the gift of "knowledge". It's the only thing that addresses that breath. It is the only thing that acknowledges your existence as you are - UNJUDGEMENTAL! If you want to be accepted without judgement, then there is only one person who can do that. To accept without judgement. And in turn give you a gift which would free you from waiting. To receive that gift in your life is the greatest honour. It is the greatest reward. It is the greatest medal. To accept that knowledge and to practise that knowledge in your life is the greatest achievement that a human being can ever have. And you can quote me on that. (applause). Nothing more." (click here for audio extract)  

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:22:49 (EST) From: Francesca :~) Email: None To: cq Subject: Plain old BALD FACED LIE Message:

There's no excuse for this from a man who quotes Kabir and every other ding dang teacher: No science, no technicality, no technical publications, no ... (yells) ... NOTHING! ... will put you in touch with that breath except the gift of 'knowledge'. It's the only thing that addresses that breath. It is the only thing that acknowledges your existence as you are - UNJUDGEMENTAL! That's just plain and simple not true. And it's a double bind. If he claims ignorance, if he claims he doesn't know it's a lie, then he's claiming that he doesn't know very much about meditation OR spirituality. The only way he can get away with this is for premies to have the blinders on, and not to dare even learn enough about other forms of sprituality and meditation to know that this is a lie. But I think it can't possibly be true that even most premies don't realize it's a lie. I mean, they'd have to really be living in a barrel. So assuming that most premies KNOW it's a lie, they are really twisting their brains around to accept this sort of thing as the truth. I really do think that the yelling is part of the brain lock for premies. He yells at them and it reinforces that never doubt the Master, put this in a box and don't think about it, mentality. Still yelling after all these years. What a fool! --f

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:48:15 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: M: plain ignorant? or deliberate liar? repost Message:

Verbatim quote , Maharaji, from the Nottingham 30th anniversary event: 'I tell you this because ... you also know this is real. There is nothing in this life that will go with you 'til the very end. The only thing is: your breath - that will be there, 'til the very end. That's it. No science, no technicality, no technical publications, no ... (yells) ... NOTHING! ... will put you in touch with that breath except the gift of knowledge. It's the only thing that addresses that breath. It is the only thing that acknowledges your existence as you are - UNJUDGEMENTAL! If you want to be accepted without judgement, then there is only one person who can do that. To accept without judgement. And in turn give you a gift which would free you from waiting. To receive that gift in your life is the greatest honour. It is the greatest reward. It is the greatest medal. To accept that knowledge and to practise that knowledge in your life is the greatest achievement that a human being can ever have. And you can quote me on that. (applause). Nothing more.' [ let's hope this one works ]

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:41:06 (EST) From: Carl Email: None To: cq Subject: We may as well pack up and go home Message:

There is nothing more to do in this life. As M points out: 'NOTHING! ... will put you in touch with that breath except the gift of knowledge. It's the only thing that addresses that breath. . . . To accept that knowledge and to practise that knowledge in your life is the greatest achievement that a human being can ever have.' Yeah, I know what he means. Michelangelo? a hack dauber. Lao Tsu? poor fool. Socrates, Plato? ignorami. Einstein? a moron. Mother Theresa? a conniver for glory. J.S. Bach? a tune-a-day scribbler. Jonas Salk? a wastrel. The billions of breathing people trying to raise their families with some sense of decency, love and prosperity? Such a sad waste of effort -- they may as well just drop everything and rush to join M in his crusade. It's the only thing that addresses that breath, yes? No one else has a clue. No one. It is the private and exclusively particular expertise of M. It's the greatest achievement, after all.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 13:08:36 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Carl Subject: there's only one conclusion from this: Message:

there's only one conclusion from this - and if it ain't ironic, I don't know what is: - Rawat likes to keep his premies in ignorance, all the while calling it 'knowledge'. Or maybe I'm being unfair, and he really ISN'T aware of the multitude of meditation techniques which 'address the breath'. There's more to pranayama than just the 'so-hum' mantra. But what would premies know of that? They're tied to a guru who likes to keep them ignorant. Sad really. But if that's how they like it ... PS. thanks for including Jonas Salk. As a practitioner of self-education, I looked him up, since I'd never heard of him before. Elucidating!

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:02:12 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: cq Subject: test (ignore) Message:

[ click ]

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:31:58 (EST) From: Occasional Poster Email: None To: All Subject: Hold the front page .... Message:

Yoram Weiss just tonight completed a telephone broadcast to the UK and Eire PWK community. The following are the main points and new projects that were mentioned. EV UK (and other EV vehicles worldwide) has been and will be slimed down and will no longer be the main vehicles for organizing activities and so forth. The primary purpose (and that of Visions) will be that of financial vehicles to support M and his 'vision' as he sees it. 'Projects within Maharaji's vision'. Apparently EV UK provides for a consistent and stable cash flow and donates to the 'International Fund' which, as I heard Yoran say, is typically used for plane expenses. (No mention was made as to how Serenity the 104-foot super luxury boat was supported). One reason that EV UK is so supportive is that it gains considerable UK government tax rebates which, according to Yoram, amounted to $400k last year. Anyway the new 'projects' were listed as: 1. A documentary series on M which will broadcast on a 'main TV channel like Discovery' and broadcasts are planned early 2003. The series will be 3-4 parts. 2. An article will appear in a 'leading business magazine' and which will come out early April 2002. M has already given the relevant interview which, apparently, is first he has given in over 27 years. 3. M new website (which Yoram praised no end) will be enhanced so that interested people will be able to download various PDF files that are themed - 'Thirst', 'The possibility' and other such nonsense. Dwnloaders will be able to make up a book or somesuch. Similarly MP3 files will be incorporated giving excerpts of His Holiness' speeches and people will then be able to collect these files and make CDs, Tapes etc. Wow! (Actually M his copying his big brother here as Satpal has had audio files for a long time - but who gives a damm anyway). 4. Although still being researched it is planned that M (or whatever vehicle he uses) will release 'Books on Tapes' incorporating such riveting subjects such as 'The Possibility', 'Being Alive' etc. These books will be sold via 'major bookstores worldwide. Yoram expressed the feeling that 'this is all exciting!' He went on further to say: - The current broadcasts will continue although the content may change. M wishes for the broadcasts not to be a substitute for live events. He wishes to have the 'uniqueness of events to be restored'. On the broadcasts once again major themes will be stressed (see above for example of themes). In summing up Yoram said that EV and Visions will be primarily financing vehicles to support 'anchor' activities, which are as follows: a. The essential assets - the plane, events, Amaroo b. M capacity to communicate via 'materials' c. Financial support essential d. Giving K via existing materials (I assume DVD) Yoram stressed the need to 'change what needs to be changed whilst preserving the essential things' John McClean (the UK and Eire co-ordinator) rounded off the show with expressions of wonderment saying that we should let things evolve naturally, as M wants change. We should be ready assist M as he develops his vision. I did not bother remembering what John had to say as it was obvious he really had nothing worthwhile to say beyond his feelings of how wonderful things are. =========================== All in all a sorry state of affairs. M is obviously targeting the 'corporate' market and mainstream people. (I guess this is what Bonthouse and Associates have come up with for all those $$$ sent their way). Naturally all these endeavours are doomed to failure - as soon as M comes out from the PWK world he opens himself to public scrutiny and discovery of all those points so well listed on the front page of EPO (the 14 points). As usual Yoram spent ages describing the need for finance and that 'we' have a new and fresh opportunity of helping M in his endeavours. I could say much much more but thought I would get this out pronto. OP

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:18:59 (EST) From: Patrick Wilson Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: Re: Hold the front page .... Message:

1. A documentary series on M which will broadcast on a 'main TV channel like Discovery' and broadcasts are planned early 2003. The series will be 3-4 parts. I am an avid Discovery Channel watcher and have even contributed to the production of some programmes thereon. It seems to me absolutely impossible to imagine that Maharaji, with all his patriarchal aspirations, secret initiations / supposed unique powers, highly contentious past and of course, his personal extravagant excesses, would ever be considered as material for anything other than as fodder for an objective documentary about the phenomenon of new religions, Gurus, or cults. There was a programme recently which examined various (usually deceased) oddball people, like Ron Hubbard, Margaret Fonteyn, which was called 'Secret Lives' - The programme showed through interviews and old film, that these people indeed had a private side which belied their public front. That would be more the sort of programme that would get made. If M thinks he has earned a stage on a scientific channel such as Discovery then he is totally deluded. Money can buy you publicity up to a certain point but, as Maharaji seems to be poised to discover, there is a limit. Does their arrogance have no bounds???

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 21:56:46 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Re: Hold the front page .... Message:

Hi Patrick, I also watch Discovery for its documentaries. I cannot imagine them producing a fluff piece about a has-been, washed up, user of a conman guru. They have much more class than that at Discovery or any exciting 'Discovery type' channel. Desperation masked by arrogance. Best, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 16:26:55 (EST) From: Marshall Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Re: Hold the front page .... Message:

Good points, Patrick, Personally I can't decide whether GMJ and his minions are A - Sincere, deluded, and pathetic. B - Shrewd, calculating, and ingenious. Or, C - Confused, unimformed, and incompetent. Somehow GMJ/Elan Vital, etc. seem to manage to combine all of these contradictory elements into their operations. Hard to figure out.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:44:53 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Re: Hold the front page .... Message:

Hi Patrick. How are you? You expressed my sentiments exactly. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 16:09:53 (EST) From: PatrickW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Hold the front page .... Message:

Hi Patrick. How are you? You expressed my sentiments exactly. Marianne --- I'm fine -watching 'Pop Idols' final on TV like most of the British Isles tonight. One of the two would-be pop stars (Will) is a relative of mine so I am rooting for hm to win! I just tuned in to that post about M's plans to broadcast on the likes of Discovery Channel and it got my goat. Seriously if Maharaji's videos got airtime on British TV I would have to contact the Advertising Rights Commission as I believe thousands of others would rightly feel the need to do. Thank goodness we have rights as citizens to be protected against such insidious cult propoganda. I've got kids for heavens' sake. Anyway, hope you are well. Hope to meet you again one day - maybe at another Latian evening in the not-too-distant future. All the best P

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:46:41 (EST) From: Beverly Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: Re: Hold the front page .... Message:

I came home last night and saw my premie partner on the couch. At first I didn't even realize he was on the phone, and when I did, I just had that sick feeling it was the Yorum-give-it-to-'m' phone call. I had seen the email last week and trashed it before showing him, feeling sheepish and sneaky. Obviously they 'called' to make sure all their donors were listening in. I am sure he was blissed out hearing 'exciting' news. Oh give me a break. It just bothers me how much money my partner supports this cult with. There is nothing I can do to make him see the light, he is convinced he is seeing it and I am the unfortunate one who was misled by that nasty website. Again I am reminded what a relief a forum like this is. Thanks to all of you for continuing to break the veil.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:28:58 (EST) From: Occasional Poster Email: None To: Beverly Subject: Immoral trappings .... Message:

Beverly Thank you! Your post meant more to me than you can imagine. I was that premie who for so many years knew so much more than my partner, who although she 'took' knowledge many years ago, was never realy taken in with all the 'trappings'. Oh how I should have listened to her many years ago. Now I have continued 'my journey' I can see more clearly and can finally release myself from the immoral structures that M bind us to him. All under the guise of 'propogation' and 'spreading his message' but in reality simply a funnel to scoop up as much cash as possible and concentrate it around himself. The trick of course was, and is, to package simple proven meditation techniques under a belief system that eventually falls apart - bit by bit, one by one. I for one continue to meditate, love life and 'experience' my own essence but am released from his 'maya'. No regrets realy but just wish I had awakened earlier. Each to their own I guess. Much love and I look forward to reading you again. OP

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 03:08:00 (EST) From: The Maharaji of Malibu Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: really leaves you scratching your head Message:

Thank God, I never joined this ludicrous cult of his or did I? Did I really put in 25 years trying to believe this absurd shit. Once again, he is allowing his prisoners to believe that happy days are here again. I know I used to buy it. Damn the bureaucracy, M's taking over and where's my check book. Actually this is very much like psychological prison tactics. Let the prisoners have a little hope and they will behave better. Let the POW's think they are about to be released and then let them slowly realize it's not going to happen. My God, what could I have possibly been thinking?

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 23:27:08 (EST) From: StevieJi Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: Re: ... will be SLIMED down ... Message:

EV UK ... will be SLIMED down ... (boy, ya just gotta love that misspelling, dontcha? Gee, a fate right out of Ghostbusters. Very nice. Me like.)

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 21:20:04 (EST) From: Moley Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: Typo I'm sure Opie.... Message:

EV UK (and other EV vehicles worldwide) has been and will be slimed down But so much better than slimmed !

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:32:26 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: No best seller here.... Message:

'Books on Tapes' incorporating such riveting subjects such as 'The Possibility', 'Being Alive' etc. These books will be sold via 'major bookstores worldwide. Yoram expressed the feeling that 'this is all exciting! What a laughable title, Being alive, does anyone really think they have to read up on breathing in and out. And the possibility, how mysterious, what is M going to do here expand more on the possibility of being alive and breathing in and out. More of the same banal useless drivel, M had better get a ghost writer on staff so he can blame someone else for the miserable failures of these two bombs in the bookstore. I really can't see anyone buying these already well hashed over self awareness subjects other than present cult members.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:52:57 (EST) From: shri me Email: None To: Brian Smith Subject: Re: No best seller here.... Message:

Don't knock it self help may be a waning market but it's not dead yet this might be the publication to finish it off. Didn't a book come out in the seventies telling of the great ones acomplishments.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:06:21 (EST) From: Deborah Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: Hi OP, you did good [nt] Message:

Thanks for the dope on Maha. I know Maha is stupid enough to believe his 'thought reformation' will work on the media. But it won't. Only premies can hear the revisions and banal brain drippings slurring out of the LARD's mouth, and think, 'Wow! Thanks for the gift.' But the public is more sophisticated than Maha. And when they hear the other side of the story, watch out! However, I know it won't get that far.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:07:00 (EST) From: me again Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: Above, not [NT] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:59:03 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: Thanks OP, good summary... Message:

I agree with your conclusions.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:06:14 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: I listened too....REALLY!! Message:

And boy, was that weird. Talk about Deja Vu. Somebody sent me the number and the password, and voila! An ex-premie was once again plugged into the bizzaro world of Yoram Weiss, John McClean (sad person), and Maharaji. I sat and ate my lunch and listened with feelings ranging from total boredom, to amazement that this crap is still going on. Just to add to the above, between the lines, it's clear they are running out of money, and putting a good spin on it, saying they are slimming things down, so Maharaji can tell his message directly to premies and 'the public at large.' Can some Brit explain about British charitable laws? In the US people can get 'tax deductions' for donations to Elan Vital US. How come EV can get tax 'rebates' totalling $400,000, directly from the British government? Yoram said that although most of the other EV entities were going bye bye, they would keep that one around in the UK (Elan Vital UK) because of the money they get from the government dole in the UK. What a racket. How does that work? BTW -- Yoram implied that things were a lot more together in the UK than in the USA in premieland. Seems the British cult shows a lot more videos than the USA does, and maybe donates more money, too, but that wasn't quite clear. Also, according to McClean, there are 450 - 500 "interested people" in UK and Ireland and that was just so fantastic. [{I'm sure it was "interested" and not "interesting." In Los Angeles that might be an accurate number for interesting people, but not the UK. :)) Regarding the 4 projects: 1. A documentary series on M which will broadcast on a 'main TV channel like Discovery' and broadcasts are planned early 2003. The series will be 3-4 parts. I heard something like this too, but what I also heard (I wrote this part down) was that it would be 'a documentary series on Maharaji' done by a 'fairly well-known producer' (unamed, probably not even located yet who will be willing, for money, to do exactly what the cult wants), on the subject of 'Maharaji On Self Knowledge,' and once they got somebody to do this and it's together, they would try to go peddle it to 'something like the Discovery channel' with '2 or 3 sessions on Maharaji' and all this was going to 'take some time to complete' but was 'planned to go out in the middle of next year.' [All a bit tenuous, it sounds, but something to try to get the premies to think there is actually something happening, and no one should hold their very important breaths.] Can't wait to see it. Be sure to get your cable installed! I wonder. How many ex-premies, or victims of Jagdeo, will they interview for this "documentary" and how much historical "footage" (no pun intended) will they use, how many Krishna outfits and crowns will be included, and what reputable TV channel would run such a thing as a "documentary" if they don't include such things? We must keep our eyes on this one. 2. An article will appear in a 'leading business magazine' and which will come out early April 2002. M has already given the relevant interview which, apparently, is first he has given in over 27 years. Yes, first time he has opened himself to an interview since 1974! Isn't he just so kind? Imagine. Yoram said 'they' were 'invited' to put this 'article in a prestigious business magazine that goes out to different CEOs of large corporations,'[Can't tell is this means it has a large distribution or a tiny one. "CEO TODAY?"]. M gave an interview, and he will be included with 'people in other areas of business and activity of life.' It sounded like this article was on a series of people, only one of which was Maharaji, and that he was to be presented as 'an authority on self-knowledge.' There might also be some premie-corporate types in it, but it wasn't clear. It makes me wonder if people like Don Delaski, Tim Gallwey and some others got this thing together. Coming out in April. [Can't wait to see it, and I'm sure the magazine will have a letters to the editor section that ex-premies might want to comment on, giving the address to EPO, just so people can get more information, and a fuller picture on this 'authority on self-knowledge.'] 3. Yeah, a new website from which you can download stuff and give it out to people, like, according to Yoram, the discourses on the very exciting subjects, or 'themes' of, 'the possibility', 'thirst' and 'being alive' (Who knew?) [I'm sure this will be a raving sucess, just like his previous websites.] 4. Although still being researched it is planned that M (or whatever vehicle he uses) will release 'Books on Tapes' (excepts of his 'discouses' incorporating such riveting subjects such as 'The Possibility', 'Being Alive' etc. These books will be 'sold' via 'major bookstores worldwide. (not to make money, but just to 'expand' his exposure.) Who came up with this brilliant idea? Do you think people will BUY that crap? Again, it will include discourses on "thirst" and "being alive." Really meaty stuff. They want to save Amaroo, and the plane is sacrosinct. Other than some new 'materials' for propagation and those 4 'emerging projects' there isn't anything happening. John McClean sounded like the typical coordinator. He was 'just seeing more and more' and 'feeling so strongly the importance of what Maharaji is doing,' and 'feeling so grateful for the opportunity to speak of the possibility of being alive to the experience of.....blahblahblahlabh! This is all seen as a period of 'quieting down' and ending 'unnecessary activity' and Maharaji 'breaking free from things WE created,' etc. Some things never change! Jesus Christ, people SIT and listen to this? In the meantime, John suggested that to do propagation, people should make copies off the satellite and give videos out to interestd people. Golly. All this, the fact that the organizations are shutting down, and these are these few, pitiful, 'new endeavors' happening, is just to keep the money coming in and to pretend that something is actually happening. Amazing people fall for this. BTW, anybody who wanted to listen had to either go to a hall, or get the phone number and password. You had to call Southern California to be in on the call.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:26:40 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Joe Subject: re. British charity laws Message:

hope this is of some use, Joe. [ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 14:11:05 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: cq Subject: In case that jpg doesn't show up - Message:

If that pic link isn't working for you, Joe, here's the text of the letter from the UK Charity Commission that I received in Nov. 2000: ELAN VITAL TRUST (1016818) Thank you for your letter dated 9 September addressed to Mr David Rich who has asked me to reply on his behalf. The accounts for the financial year end 31 March 1999 for Elan Vital Trust, show that the charity holds restricted funds for the purpose of making donations to Elan Vital International, Elan Vital Inc and Elan Vital Australia. You may be aware that a charity is entitled to make donations to other charities with similar objects. The objects of the UK charity are to advance public education in the understanding and realisation of human potential through self-knowledge based upon the teachings of Prem Pal Singh Rawat k/a Maharaji, and therefore any money being sent to another organisation should be for this purpose. As the internaltional organisation would appear to have similar objects to the (sic) of the UK charity, there would be no objections to donations being made to the international charity. It is then a matter for the trustees of the receiving charity to decide how they advance public education into the teachings of Prem Pal Singh Rawat. Yours sincerely Halcylon Meldrum (Mrs)

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:09:40 (EST) From: Richard Email: None To: Joe Subject: The media exposure will be good for all Message:

All the new public exposure, that EV&M seem to be so excited about, can only be a good thing for all concerned. For once, M&K will be brought into the public eye where every conceivable question can be fairly raised. At that point, the various media will do what they do best and raise the very same topics we discuss here. This will be good because premies and aspirants will be able to decide for themselves, in light of what the media reveal, if this is the path they want to follow. It will be good for M because, for once in his life, he will be held accountable and responsible for the words he says. That will, hopefully, make him a better human being. And it will be good for us because we'll have to get a life finally, stop being 'loosers' and 'move on'. :) Richard the eternal optimist, or maybe the infernal optimystic

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:00:43 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Joe Subject: tax rebates...that's spin Message:

I'm talking off the top of my head. As I understand it,Charities here are tax exempt. So what Weiss is saying is that income from the UK brings in whatever, plus $400,000 that in a non-charitable business would have been taken by the tax man. Seems like a significant amount comes from these parts. All donations? I doubt it ,but you never know. What about WB Stores (the name of the legal entity that became Elan Vital UK) cq knows about this stuff more than I.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 05:17:21 (EST) From: Nottm Bunny Email: None To: PatD Subject: Not spin - UK tax rebates system Message:

Hi Pat No, it's true. The system in the UK is very different to the US. The tax rebates are from the covenants/donations from premies who give their support. Any tax-payers income is taxed at 22% up to approx £30,000 and 40% over this. My understanding is that, for example, someone who earns £40,000 gives £600 to a registered charity and this gets topped up to £1000 by the Inland Revenue with the £400 tax they had taken. What a generous government we have. Bunny

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 20:47:41 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Nottm Bunny Subject: Thanks Bunny [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:24:49 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Nottm Bunny Subject: Sounds like what Yoram was saying Message:

Bunny, That's essentially what Yoram Weiss was saying. Apparently British premies make donations to Elan Vital UK and then there is some kind of 'matching' from the British government, which then sends additional money right to Elan Vital (Yoram said $400,000 last year). According to OP, it's also perfectly okay for Elan Vital UK to send that money to Elan Vital, Inc. the International Elan Vital headquartered in the USA. In the States, you can make a donation to Elan Vital, and then deduct that from the the income on which you pay income taxes. Depending on your tax bracket, it doesn't amount to that much of a reduction, and income taxes are a lot lower in the USA than they are in the UK anyway. So, maybe they feel they can dump the US Elan Vital. Also, the US Elan Vital has the embarrassing component of just being Divine Light Mission with a name change and they might want to get rid of it for that reason as well. Thanks for the information, it helps explain why Yoram is so keen to keep the money flowing from the UK. Joe

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 07:48:24 (EST) From: Occasional Poster Email: None To: Nottm Bunny Subject: EV UK charity registration Message:

Here is the brief details of EV UK registration at the UK Charity Commission website. EV UK have recently filed their annual accounts for the period ending March 01 - these are on order via mail. That should make interesting reading. Unfortunately the Charity Commission does not have, as yet, online viewing access. Note for period ending March 2000 total EV UK income was just short of £1.4 million. OP [ EV UK deatils ]

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 04:37:16 (EST) From: JohnT Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: Obtaining Elan Vital accounts Message:

Go to the UK Companies House website (http://www.companies-house.gov.uk/info/)search on Company/Branch Name of 'Elan Vital Limited', then order the reports you want, for a small fee. The latest accounts filed for Elan Vital (Company No. 02289543) are for the year to 31/03/2001

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:55:48 (EST) From: Beverly Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: Re: EV UK charity registration Message:

Now it is coming to light why we had to register for last years' Amaroo event throught the EV-UK organization. All those $400 registration fees from us premies into the UK 'donation' category for a future rebate.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 18:27:27 (EST) From: That doesn't sound Email: None To: Beverly Subject: very legal, does it? (nt) Message:

=)

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:41:47 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Beverly Subject: The Amaroo 'donations' Message:

Beverly, that makes sense. Also, I remember people had to make a 'donation' of $800 so they could pay more money and sleep in a tent on the site. Now, a 'required' donation sounds a bit contradictory, but it does make sense for the tax scam in the UK, and maybe in Australia as well.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:42:16 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: Make Donations to charities, Schools etc do they ? Message:

I dont believe it... excpet possibly the charity the Elan vital foundation, the School of Money laundering in Delhi and the Charity whose sole beneficiary is Mr Rawat.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:52:56 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: Maharaji must think the media are stupid Message:

If Maharaji really has done an interview for a business magazine, does he really believe they will not do any research on him? Within a few moments surfing, EPO will be found. What sort of article if any will be written then? OP, well done in getting this published so quickly. I would have listened to the broadcast myself through the US telephone link, but I wanted to watch Eastenders. John.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 06:26:02 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Maharaji must think the media are stupid Message:

Unless the time EPO was offline. Perhaps it was very calculated timing, indeed.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 18:27:22 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: JHB Subject: Eastenders?? Message:

Hahaha.....I think it's the most miserable programme ever made!! 'Spot the smile' I call it......moaning, whinging London gits:) Then again, I only follow 'Brookside' soap wise, so I guess I'm not one to speak !!

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:12:21 (EST) From: Jethro Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Brookside!!!!!!!!!! Message:

That's the most miserable lot of people I've ever seen. There is not one character I like. Eastenders forever!!!!!!!

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:34:03 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Re: Brookside!!!!!!!!!!....Lol Message:

I'm not an avid viewer ( backtrack....backtrack....) :)

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 18:12:32 (EST) From: Occasional Poster Email: None To: JHB Subject: Eastenders vs. Knowledge Hmmm a tough choice! Message:

Hi JHB I think you chose well in opting for Eastenders. I cringed all the way through the slimy EV broadcast - but hey journalism is a tough life! Even when I can't spell properly. take care Opie (thanks PatC)

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:59:27 (EST) From: jethro Email: None To: JHB Subject: will PHil kill Steve? nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:21:15 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: jethro Subject: Will PHil kill Steve? Hopefully:) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:47:09 (EST) From: Moley Email: None To: PatC Subject: No no, better the other way round ;) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 23:18:45 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Moley Subject: Is Steve the handsome blonde lad?? Message:

Hi Moley He'd be a good reason for watching and enduring all the traumas, fights, bickering and tears:) You an addict of the show? Cheers Dermot

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 03:24:57 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Handsome blonde lad? Message:

I hadn't watched it in almost five years and stumbled across it recently. I never could tell which was Steve and which Phil. Wasn't the cute little butch one naughty and the chubbier plain one the serious nice guy well as nice and you can be in the East End and they both once loved the same woman who had a fatal kidney disease and the boy who had HIV had a mother acted by the woman from Are You Being Served and the old biddy with the lantern jaw and the laundrette played Livia in I, Claudius? Unrelenting drama and misery like only the Brits can do it.:C) It was living in a squat in Hackney 70-72 that drove me into the arms of the very Rev Rawat. It was almost as depressing as the Eastenders. Seven out of the original commune of 16 became premies - partially I think out of despair that the revolution had failed.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 08:59:07 (EST) From: Ddermot Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Handsome blonde lad?????? Message:

'Unrelenting drama and misery like only the Brits can do it.:C) ' Yeah that's it...goes under the name of 'Eastenders' :) Not sure who you were describing, Pat, but I think they were of episodes long gone....maybe in America you are a few years behind story wise. Your general description was funny though. Sorry to hear you had to live in Hackney:) In a squat too !!Are British soaps exportable? Surely they'd be incomprehensible, or maybe they're dubbed? :) Pat / Loaf...the blonde lad (well..blondish), he's like a sort of surrogate son of Phil(?) and Phil has recently rejected him over some recent melodrama. Not actually sure the 'characters' name though. Cheers Dermot PS I really did like I Claudius though:)

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:48:25 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: Ddermot Subject: Dot Cotton was also Nanny Slagg Message:

Nanny Slagg in the enormous and badly acted Gormenghast. Do you guys mean Paul Nicholls ? (is that his name ? Sounds too close to a horrible curly haired Pete Framption lookalike sit-com actor) Anyway.. i agree blonde and cute is wonderful. 'More BBC, More !' as Terry Wogan puts itin the mornings... bless 'im.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:42:41 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Loaf Subject: I'll find out who he is Message:

real life/character life at some point or other just to put the matter to rest:) He's very handsome, at any rate. Yeah, she was in that weird Gormenghast thingy hahaha Cheers Dermot

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Date: Sun, Feb 10, 2002 at 00:56:01 (EST) From: Joy Email: None To: Dermot Subject: The handsome blond lad is Jamie Message:

That's his character in EastEnders. Don't know his real-life name, though, the credits roll too fast. There's an official web site you can search on if you're really keen on him. I've watched just about every episode of that show from the very beginning and think it's kind of gone downhill recently. Prefer Emmerdale myself, though that's silly lately, too. Oh well, an evening of soaps is still better than an evening of satsang, and god knows I spent more than enough of those in my lifetime.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 05:25:08 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: PatC Subject: CORRIE IS BEST.. Dont watch this miserable rubbish Message:

eastenders is full of threats and misery, brookside is a total embarrassment of whining... and emmerdale is big business on a small scale -- ONLY Coronation Street remains true to the ethos of Big characters (and occaisionally Big hair)in a comedia of Arts ! Corry is wonderful... Norris in the Post office is a national treasure... and bet lynch is returning :) That will be fun. Ken barlow as a sex symbol only proves that Corries sense of irony is alive and well. Squat ? hackney ? me too.. but 10 years later. cazenove Road. As regards Good Looking Blonde lads Dermott - do you mean Joe who went mad ? I liked him and Ricky best. Good hair both of em. The Bollock bald Mitchell twins are no fun at all :) Misery on legs.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 08:26:38 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Loaf Subject: You heard it here first ... Message:

Hi Loaf, I'm not a Corrie addict myself, but I've got a little bit of news that might interest you - guess who's joining the cast in the Spring? None other than that fine comedian, Roy Hudd. (and he'll be playing the part of an undertaker!) Believe.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 10:43:53 (EST) From: Loaf Email: None To: cq Subject: Gawd Blimey ! Message:

Roy Hudd in Corrie.... Babs in east Enders.. whats next ? Ken Dodd behind the bar of the Woolpack ??

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 12:07:03 (EST) From: cq Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Roy Chubby Brown in Home and Away?! (nt) Message:

Roy Chubby Brown in Home and Away?! (nt)

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 18:09:33 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: jethro Subject: Probably, but I hope.... Message:

... that the good set of scriptwriters will be on the story, as there has been some dubious scripts recently. Some people think I'm badly off here in Latvia having no pubs but even in the east end there's only one pub to go to and everyone hates each other there. John the very naive

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:01:12 (EST) From: Voyeur Email: None To: JHB Subject: Only one pub... Message:

Yea, having been brought up in the East End of London, I KNOW that they wouldn't all go to the same pub....how can you carry on a good feud if you all go to the same pub? Now watch from the US - just a week behind (instead of 4 years!) thanks to BBC America - but no thanks to the awful ads that run every 10 minutes

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 02:32:17 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Voyeur Subject: What about the Dagmar? Message:

You'd think they'd have rebuilt it by now after that fire of - what was it? - 12 years ago, or something. Wilmott-Brown the posh rapist and blues guitarist would certainly be out of jail, so he could he could come back in to run it - then you could have some proper feuding... Actually, what always puzzled me in the days I used to squander hours per week watching soaps (mostly beause my then wife was into them) was the conspicuous absence of Irish characters. Very odd for the East End, don't you think? Did Blossom and that Jewish barber guy ever come back from Israel? How's Nick Cotton doing? - Has he poisoned his old mum yet..? Nige (nowadays strictly just the Archers and no telly at all..)

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 09:08:37 (EST) From: Ddermot Email: None To: Nigel Subject: The Archers Message:

Yeah the Archers .....I think Billy Connoly said the theme tune should be the National Anthem:) Yeah, I listen to a fair amount of Rad 4 but don't really follow the Archers....eee arr lad, must go now and milk them cows....:)

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:07:09 (EST) From: shri me Email: None To: Ddermot Subject: Re: The Archers Message:

that Siobhan and Brian have brought the programme to a new low, none of the cast seem to do any real farming any more.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:50:57 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Occasional Poster Subject: Thanks Opie - EV to be ''slimed'' down? Message:

How much slimier can they get? :)

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 21:23:48 (EST) From: Moley Email: None To: PatC Subject: Oh - you got there B4 me :) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 03:08:56 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Moley Subject: I read the forum backwards anyway :C) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 16:26:53 (EST) From: Steve Mueller Email: None To: All Subject: Always fresh Message:

Sent this little outburst to PatC and he asked me to pass this along to the rest of the F7 family. Funny how the love and communication flows so freely and openly among us exes WITHOUT THE FRIGGIN GRACE OF THAT B --- --D M! (Sorry, but that little outburst did shed a few thousand residual M devotion cells.) God, you know, F7 is so great. You know how M used to always say: 'I always say the same thing to you but it always sounds so new' ? WRONG! Stale, very stale. Any seemingly newness was due to our brainwashed minds telling us that we were SUPPOSED to be getting high off him cuz he was the LARD! The ALMIGHTY Friggin LARD! With F7, you never know what folks will come out with. It is always fresh and infinitely more scintillating, liberating, and closer to the truth than M's tired old retread buttsangs.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 11:54:21 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: and the PREMIE forum.... Message:

The level of debate (online, at least) amongst those who've discarded the shackles of a 'personality cult' is akin to senior level whereas the premie 'forum' (if that really is the right word) is kindergarten level. Very little is ever exchanged, discussed (and yes even heatedly argued over) between themselves. Of course their excuse is that they have 'lives' in the real world, whereas all exes are stuck in a virtual world.Also, the whole point of being a premie( online, at least) is not to take anything (except the never ending 'fresh beginnings' of Prem Pal Rawat and his band of Merry corporate sycophants') too seriously, so what's the point of thinking about anything anyway? What's the point of weighing up the pros and cons of moral and ethical issues?What’s the point of ever voicing any hint of something above and beyond the party line? I recently posted there (pretty much tongue in cheek) saying how I felt it was my forum as much as,say, Mili's or whoever (my reasoning being I, too,considered life to be great) and until barred, would continue to do so. Realisticlly, though, why would anyone, who enjoys intelligent writing, discussion and debate ever want to hang out there long term? When exes aren't there it's dead.The odd link is posted about 'video sales' or whatever or the odd little 'feelgood' new age one liner. Fair enough, they don't have to get to know each and engage in stimulating intercourse but then , why bother having a forum anyway, if that's the case? They could as well use an email ring and just mail the latest'visions' price offers or something to each other once in a blue moon. They are always in such a defensive mode, they find it hard to engage in any other way except for short, sharp nasty sniping or short banal new-ageisms.This is understandable to an extent because the ex stance does challenge theirs.I'm convinced a lot of the premies who pop in and out of there are, in most respects, decent, intelligent people.A few, I think, are nasty pieces of work( these are usually anonymous ) but I just can't believe they are truly reflecting their full, whole selves. I think this is where the slavish adherence to Maharaji comes into play.Mixed in there with their 'love and devotion' is an ingrained fear of something or other. It inhibits and stifles.It's very odd. Earlier,I was careful to classify these as 'online' premies.I'm sure they aren't so stifled in real life, around family and friends or whatever. Surely not? I remember, often, having wide-ranging discussions with fellow premies (not all premies mind you, a minority), expressions of doubt,questions about the whole structure surrounding Maharji, questions about the nature of Maharaji himself.Admittedley, after a strong video or something and around the fragile 'official' environnent of EV, some would go into weird mode.A sort of state of being that conveyed a message of 'oh, hello you, yes we did talk about this and that but actually you're not really real, neither am I...isn't it wierd? Or is this bliss?' Recently Isabella posted on LG and something she said really caught my eye.She said, in her opinion, all the accusations concerning Maharaji (apart from, perhaps, the Jagdeo issue) were “unimpressive” or just ”gossip fodder”. I responded to this and cited the “Fakiranand issue”. I remember how I felt/ thought about it when I was a premie.I didn’t know the full facts and certainly didn’t know he was sent to Europe immediatley after the crime but even so I managed to “shelve” it and not really give it much thought. I definitely didn’t attribute any blame or wrongdoing to Maharaji. Not just the actual incident but the way Maharaji handled it. Anyway, we ended up exchanging quite a few posts and credit to her, she was at least prepared to participate in some sort of dialogue. I found her responses wholly unconvincing and actually thought she was skirting around the issue and unable or unwilling to really face it head on. That was her perogative though and I had no desire to force her or cajole her one way or the other.It was frustrating, though, because I genuinely felt she was deliberately avoiding the issue and trying to pan it out so that I would cease from pinpointing the role of Maharji in the whole sordid affair. Other exes also joined the discussion. When the thread fizzled out (mainly because Isabella had a “life” and had to cook dinner or something) other premies wiped up the mess by nasty swipes at whoever,along with the usual “we don’t want you here” hahaha. Well fair enough, but it must have been obvious to the majority of observers that I was picking up on something Isabella had said and then having a civil, for the most part polite, discussion. The fact that this was viewed as so threatening, challenging and insulting is incredible. Had I gone to the forum using IDZap and posted little nasty one liners such as “ You’re all a bunch of cult tossers” up and down the forum then I’d understand their concerns and AGREE with them that I deserved to be thrown out. However, One self-designated forum Janitor (using ID zap for anonymity because even on “home” turf just couldn’t pluck up the courage to be real) did, indeed, then proceed to sweep the forum clean of “discourse”. Mili also was his usual sociable self, full of the joys and experience of “Knowledge”(not). All in all, it’s quite sad I think. Contrast this main ex forum (and the mainly ex OT forum) with LG. Yes, sometimes we have a go at each other throats (so to speak ! ) and at times vehemently disagree. The recent “racism” sub-thread of OTS’s post is a good example of intelligent disagreement.Healthy in my opinion. The way some voiced their opinions/concerns about Deb posting a pic (and Debs angry rebuttal!)….it’s all healthy in my opinion. Why? Simply because we are adults who fundamentally appreciate the forum and, despite real disagreements at times ,are prepared, on the whole, to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves down and get on with intelligent discourse. To conclude, the real forum Janitor over on LG (CD,bless him) said , yes, I could continue there if I say something nice or inspiring once in a while!! Well, they can rest easy, I won’t be moving in and taking over the joint actually!! However, if and when I do post there it will be because I have something honest and intelligent to say. Something, based on my life experience, that carries conviction. Maybe in response to something that someone has said and I consider mistaken or something I think is worth thinking about and pondering over. It won’t be posted to insult premies or to “pick on “ premies but if that’s how some premies read it then frankly that’s their problem, not mine. Cheers Dermot

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 15:56:50 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Excellent appraisal, Dermot! Message:

Indeed, I responded on LG by saying: You're so right. This place is usually as stark, empty and absurd as the set for Waiting for Godot. Premies have it so tough in a way. There are indeed a million 'wrong' things they can say to each other. They're constantly changing how they think and talk about M and K. So long as they don't have to say much they can smile at each other and talk about the weather but that's about it. Talk about lonely!

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:04:15 (EST) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Intelligent and stimulating too Message:

probably one of the most intelligent and stimulating site's on the whole world wide web. Ever check into some of the other chat rooms out there, people sound like a bunch of truckers talking to one another on CB's, Hey, how ya doin today cyberbuddie, its's raining here, took the cat to the Vet, just got back and had to check in to see what's happening out here in the land of organ transplant survivors, hows your new liver working, yada yada yada. Now I admit that if one has had an organ transplant (and this is just for example only, the chat room topics are endless) any conversation at all is a worthwhile one, I just don't find this sort of folksie hi yall stuff to be very interesting, no matter where it comes from. We definately are an eclectic group of individuals with many varied styles and backgrounds. Mostly I find the company here to be highly intelligent, and stimulating. Other chat rooms are filled with reports about the weather, or the personal daily trivia which fills the agenda of many of the other web sites. The creme de la creme of the internet communicators gather here

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 16:40:03 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Re: Always fresh Message:

The bit I liked best was: ''Sorry, but that little outburst did shed a few thousand residual M devotion cells.'' :)

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:48:41 (EST) From: Marshall Email: None To: PatC Subject: Re: Always fresh Message:

I am always entertained here at forum 7, what a great bunch of people, no really I mean it. It sounds a little corny, but this really is a fun cyberspot to visit. I have learned some very interesting facts off topic, and on, here, over the years(4-5 already?) I liked it when Jim and Nigel used to talk about evolution, genetics, and brain chemistry, etc. Those were some interesting discussions, are they in the archives?

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 00:52:41 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Marshall Subject: But the evolution discussion continues! Message:

Marshall, If you're still interested in the evolution discussion, it continues on Sat Chit Anand. Well, actually it's more like G talking to himself but I'm sure, if you joined him, he'd be happy to explain to you how things work. Kinda.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 03:42:11 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: But the evolution discussion continues! Message:

I think G is publishing his notes for his Apologia Pro Creationism and doesn't mind much talking to himself. Most of it is way over my head and, not being a creationist, I'm not motivated to read it. Evolutionism, especially the role of the ''survival of the fittest,'' while still not thoroughly explored or documented, is a bit like the capitalism or I should say the market-place. Neither are theories or ideologies. They are simply facts of life.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 18:56:27 (EST) From: p Email: None To: Marshall Subject: I agree, Marshall Message:

You said: ''I have learned some very interesting facts off topic....I liked it when Jim and Nigel used to talk about evolution, genetics, and brain chemistry, etc. Those were some interesting discussions, are they in the archives?'' Me too. The off-topic stuff also helped me to understand the posters in more depth. The only OT stuff which I hope is never re-introduced is politics. It tends to dominate discussion as it has in the Chit Chatroom; is too contentious and most of us are too old and set in our ways to change our political spots at this stage - well, except for chickens like you. PatC:C)

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 16:13:59 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: All Subject: From Premie First Class email Message:

This letter from Lee Marges (Pt time Instructor in Australia) was posted on the cult's secret First Class email. It was sent to me by a friend in Oz. re Changes Wednesday, 6 February 2002 2:43:PM Aus EV Updates From: Lee Marges - Aus Derek Harper - Aus Subject: ANT Update Feb 2002 To: Aus EV Updates The main activity of the Australian National Team has been to focus on the core issues of resources, finance, materials and Amaroo. RESOURCES The recent minimization of EV has meant that resources previously used for overheads can now be channeled directly into core activities. These essential core activities include- Supporting the creation of materials Events with the speaker International tours Amaroo and the ability to hold events there Knowledge sessions Channels for propagation (e.g. websites) Further information on specific developments will be made available soon. FINANCE The ANT has been overhauling the current finance situation to minimize expenses and to make the Propagation Fund more equitable and reflect the influence of Direct Access. We have been working with local teams on this and will post a report and this year's budget shortly. We are also working with Amaroo and EV International to increase Australia's contribution to Amaroo. Our contribution to Amaroo from sponsors has dropped to half what is was in 1999 and we would like to get back to that figure. MATERIALS Materials has the joint role of providing access to M's message and providing the funds to enable it. It is the intention of the ANT to develop the materials area so that it can provide our Visions contribution. We intend to introduce Home Delivery by post of the current Satellite Broadcast tape in the near future. As we increase the duplication of the Broadcast tapes they are available for sale and for borrowing through the MOL and event libraries. AMAROO The ANT has been working with Amaroo to improve communication and synchronization. Particular areas of interest include communication with PWK in Australia and New Zealand and registration and accommodation policies. We have offered our support to proposals for an event in April and look forward to participating fully when an event is confirmed. EVENTS The downsizing of EV has already had a profound effect on the way M's events are held overseas. Invitations, set up and logistics have become the responsibilities of individual and groups rather than EV. We are keeping up with these developments and are seeing how we can respond to this new direction. All in all, we are seeking ways to ensure that our finances are stable and fair and that M's message is available in an efficient and self supporting manner. Thanks for your help.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 16:42:02 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: PatC Subject: The English Language Message:

In Britain there is an organisation called Plain English, or something like that, that campaigns for the use of understandable English is official publications, and they have actually had a great impact, with forms such as benefit applications, and tax returns being far more accessible to ordinary people. Is there anybody out there sufficiently proficient with the English langage to translate this? John

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 19:01:50 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: JHB Subject: translation...... Message:

.....premies are leaving in droves and donations are drying up.

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Date: Sat, Feb 09, 2002 at 04:47:38 (EST) From: Janet Email: None To: PatC Subject: i liked this part Message:

'Our contribution to Amaroo from sponsors has dropped to half what is was in 1999 and we would like to get back to that figure.' and people in Hell want icewater, and Christians would like to see the Second Coming, and women past menopause would like to fit a perfect size 10 again, and hippies would like to see Woodstock happen the way it did in 69, and rock n roll fans the world over wish they could see The Beatles and Jimi Hendrix and The Doors and the Grateful Dead and Janis Joplin tour again but it ain't gonna happen, is it?. Hey Premies! Quit living in the past! get over it! move on! don't be attached! that was then, this is now! life is change! and my favorite: 'the same day never dawns twice' [turnabout is fair play, n'est-ce pas?]

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 12:18:31 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: The myth of 'twisted reason' Message:

In a thread over on LG, a premie said this: Reason is not a pernicious thing. At all. But debating as an art form (and lawyering to an extent) is about twisting reason to meet one's own end. You and I both know that. The only pernicious thing about reason is this myth that, because it can be 'twisted' somehow (and, by implication, turned into a vassal servant of the dark side, i.e. falsehood), it can't be trusted. This bugs me so I replied: As cliched as this prejudice is it's completely unfounded. Reason cannot be 'twisted'. There's nothing to worry about in that respect, despite how often people regurgitate this ignorant superstition for one another. Indeed, this unfounded fear is a real tragedy as reason is the only trustworthy beacon we have for navigating complex or foggy mental waters. Without reason to rely on, people are susceptible to every last whim and impulse that arises. But reason can't be corrupted. That's what makes it so powerful and trustworthy. And that's why all these cults and new age teachings embrace 'paradox', as a way to obliterate one's natural capacity to depend upon reason. People talk about lawyers using reason as some sort of black magic but that's nonsense. The old Hollywood cliched cross-examination where the lawyer gets the witness to admit something that plays on words and isn't really what the witness means is not a courtroom reality.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 20:00:13 (EST) From: Barry Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's that simple! Message:

Reason leads to the truth, or at least your own personal truth. twisting reason is just that, twisting reason period. But what about that Jim? What is truth, if all of our beliefs can differ so much from one another. how does reason and truth corrilate? That is if truth has anything to do with reason at all?

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:02:35 (EST) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: What a neurologist says about it Message:

There's a book out called 'Within Reason' that I thumb through every now and then that I think is an interesting theory on what reason is, and I quote: Reason is a biological product ? a tool whose power is inherently and substantially restricted. It has improved how we do things; it has not changed why we do things. Read the rest of the book's introduction for an elaboration on the above, HERE. As for 'twisted' reason, premies should know all about that, shouldn't they? Who engages in it more than they do? Since they have so little respect for it, I guess they figure they have every right to abuse it, which they do.... in spades.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 14:11:46 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: The myth of 'twisted reason' Message:

That same person also said: ''By the way, I really don't like debating - I find it tiresome. I like connecting or conversing and I was hoping that's what we were doing...but...I digress.'' To which I responded: That is what is known in San Francisco, the city of peace, love and freedom, as being passive-aggressive - trying to control the flow of human intercourse by arbitrary and unilateral rules. If you ruled out debating in the everyday world you would be regarded as either aloof and cold or a close-minded religious fanatic. It would be really nice, I agree with you, if we could just spend the whole day connecting and conversing (whatever that might mean) and never debating. Only trouble we would not have the democratic civilization that we now have and which you are blithely ignoring. You are cutting off the branch on which you are sitting by being as close-minded as not to allow for debate - but of course you can't see that. Maharajism is based on illogic. In fact Rev Rawat declared that he had killed the wicked witch of logic in England in 1975. Nothing he ever says is logical. He constantly denigrates reason and logic. How is it possible to live in a sophisticated democratic society and still subscribe to such an unreasonable and illogical religion as Maharajism? It is not. That's why so many ex-premies have expressed the liberating exhiliration they experience once they cut their ties to Rev Rawat's religion. To remian in the cult it is necessary to engage in ''twisted reason.'' I know I did it all the time. I was telling another ex yesterday that at one time I even justified Rawat's greed by telling myself that he had to be greedy in order to be motivated to spread K because, if he were not materialistic, then he would simply retire and enjoy K and forget about his mission to bring peace to the world. And that was not the worst case of ''twisted reasoning'' I ever used. You have to be very creative to keep your sanity in the cult.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 13:50:53 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: Anya's excellent post Message:

I hope Anya doesn't mind me reposting her post from Life's Great, but it was just, so clear, and I think it is in line with what Jim is saying, above. She was responding to Isabella. I know exactly what this is, because I would have behaved in exactly the same way as her a while back. I knew all about the Fakiranad thing when it happened, but I sent the information to a part of my brain labelled 'do not examine'. And the reason I did this, stepping right outside my previous ethical code, was that I basically believed Maharaji to be the Perfect Master, Lord, God, pure, you name it. And when you believe that, you can allow all sorts of things to go on unchallenged. You think: 'The Lord moves in mysterious ways' or some other such vague justification. You move into a slightly different moral universe. You somehow think that the ethics and morals of the 'world' don't apply here, because this is the world of the divine. And bit by bit your own morals and ethics become slightly compromised too. So when you hear about the Jagdeo thing, it doesn't move you to outrage. You just put it, along with everything else that doesn't seem quite right, into that place labelled ' do not examine'. And that place becomes fuller and fuller with odd, uncomfortable stuff that you can't even talk about with premies. And especially with non-premies. Because if you talked about it with non-premies, you'd find yourself in a very uncomfortable place indeed. So you live a sort of double life - one moral code in the general world and another moral code in Maharaji's world. And when someone wants to debate all this, you think: 'Why do they want to go on about all of this? Can't they see how irrelevant it all is?' But no, Isabella, it's not irrelevant, because there aren't two worlds with two different ethical codes. There is only one. Anya Thank you Anya, you stated it very well.

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 17:26:55 (EST) From: Francesca :) Email: None To: Joe Subject: Great post, Anya! Message:

You describe quite well the strange netherworld that no longer jibes with the rest of what one perceives. The problem with Maharaji's world is that this spiritual stuff is supposed to be about peace, love, harmony and integration -- not cognitive dissonance and discord. Best wishes, Francesca

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 15:04:50 (EST) From: Dermot Email: None To: Joe Subject: Yep, eloquent and precise [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Feb 08, 2002 at 14:27:45 (EST) From: Barbara Email: None To: Joe Subject: Anya perfectly describes cognitive dissonance [nt] Message:

[nt]

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