Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Feb 09, 2002 To: Feb 19, 2002 Page: 1 of: 5


Quiet -:- Amaroo! -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 08:59:57 (EST)
__ shout it all out -:- Re: Amaroo! -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:10:23 (EST)

JHB -:- Amaroo Regional Event announced -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 06:45:33 (EST)
__ Does Self-Knowledge mean -:- the same as 'auditioning the finger puppets' -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 08:23:39 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Two Definitions -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:22:51 (EST)
__ ~)ITortItawaputtytat~) -:- Re: Amaroo Regional Event announced -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 07:06:22 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- Hey, putty cat........ -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:17:55 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- I'll come on one condition -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 09:31:36 (EST)

Bryn -:- I learned nothing! -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 12:03:23 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- Do bad habits not count ? [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 14:29:55 (EST)

Alert the press. -:- Hide and Seek -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 10:28:02 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Stupid game -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 11:11:18 (EST)

Loaf -:- How to show ALL POSTS as default -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 03:19:31 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Here's the link -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 04:00:30 (EST)
__ jethro -:- Thanks ofr that info -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 03:35:45 (EST)

Francesca -:- Those cosmic experiences. Huh??? -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 02:18:19 (EST)
__ hamzen -:- I did and still do -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:15:27 (EST)
__ __ Francesca -:- Ah, but it sounds like ... -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:22:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Re: neat tattoo -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 19:59:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Postie speaks -- :) [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 20:05:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Re: Postie speaks -- :) -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:31:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Happy brain chemistry to you, Postie -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 04:01:40 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Partly mental problems -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 12:58:23 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Only 7,000 Millennium 1st day -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 13:08:46 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- Does this remind me of the old days ... -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 14:41:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- The illusion of large numbers -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:26:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: The illusion of large numbers -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 04:40:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I don't think so, Joe -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:40:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Completely Different Thing -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 17:36:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hardly -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:30:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marshall -:- L.O.T.U. -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:00:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- I know about L.O.T.U. -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:11:34 (EST)
__ Serious trouble for -:- Dr. Hollowitz in the 90's -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 07:38:56 (EST)
__ __ Yes, serious trouble for -:- Re: Dr. Hollowitz in the 90's -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 12:38:46 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Leaving it all behind... -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 07:07:58 (EST)
__ __ PatD -:- Meditation and emotions -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 17:09:05 (EST)
__ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- I definitely gave it all a rest when I left -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:32:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- getting rid of the religion -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 22:51:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatD -:- Re: I definitely gave it all a rest when I left -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:15:59 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- The necessary tension between exes -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 13:48:26 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Beyond Policical Correctness... -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:48:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Great post Cynthia -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:35:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Ditto :) [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 20:21:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Francesca... -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 19:02:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Something in common -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 20:10:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Maybe because the experience gained -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:05:26 (EST)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Couldn't agree more (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:27:33 (EST)
__ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: The necessary tension between exes -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:23:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:55:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:38:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I agree with you Mike -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:46:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- I also don't care... -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 04:11:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Get real, Fran -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:10:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 17:16:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 17:38:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- and me, Mike -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 19:32:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:48:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 17:44:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Really? Which ones? -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 20:57:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Re: Really? Which ones? -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:24:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Bugger tradition! What about innovation??? -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 02:49:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Nope, not that one. Try again? -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:45:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike Finch -:- Yes, that one. -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 22:47:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Who said Buddha knew the score:) -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 23:27:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Kill the Buddha -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:05:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Ditto! -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:53:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Talking behind my back? -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 19:34:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- In front of your back, Pat... -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 22:41:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I turn my back for one second and.... -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:20:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- That's all well and said in theory -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 14:47:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marshall -:- Wrong Wrong and Wrong -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:37:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Than say, disagree, disagree, disagree -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 22:11:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Well said. Good writing. Thanks. [nt] -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 04:05:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :~) -:- No Marshall, just another tension -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:49:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marshall -:- Re: No Rancesca, just another wrong ;) -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:41:21 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Is debate about meditation frowned on here? -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 14:34:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, John. You summed it up for me. [nt] -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 19:36:36 (EST)
__ __ Barbara -:- Makes strong the thing that keeps you weak -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 10:16:52 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- Great Post .. and re: meditation -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 06:03:24 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Blissing Out now on EPO for keep -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 04:02:45 (EST)
__ Barbara -:- Rowing with one oar is more like it... -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 03:05:39 (EST)

boogermansanfrancisco -:- i think Prem loves ex-premies -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 19:16:31 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Well, JimBo, even if no-one agrees with you.... -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:47:11 (EST)

Guru Masarati -:- Money -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 13:36:33 (EST)

First nomination -:- for 2002 Maharaji of Malibu Award -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 09:50:44 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- With a plaque Inscribed... -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 11:28:05 (EST)

Barry -:- Toooo funny! I love it! -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 00:00:30 (EST)
__ Jerry -:- I think you're fucked up, Bar -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 01:41:55 (EST)
__ __ Barry -:- Jerry Chill! -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 12:42:45 (EST)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Barry, fuck off -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 15:47:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Barry -:- Your just way to serious man! -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 18:51:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Don't fuck with a serious man, Bar -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 19:16:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Check post at Satshitbathroom! -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 20:18:57 (EST)
__ __ Catwoman's love child;) -:- Re: I think you're fucked up, Bar -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 04:30:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: I think YOU'RE fucked up, Love Child -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 11:51:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Oooh Aaaah,Miaow -:- Re: I think YOU'RE fucked up, Love Child -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 15:58:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Wrong, Cat -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 09:13:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: I think YOU'RE fucked up, Love Child -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 17:15:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Screwed up the text -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 17:17:06 (EST)
__ Barry -:- Oh by the way! -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 00:18:55 (EST)
__ __ Miaow? -:- Re: Oh by the way! -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 00:41:52 (EST)
__ __ __ Barry -:- Nope! Surrey Mall!(nt) -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 12:36:14 (EST)
__ __ __ Troll Alert -:- It's the Cat. [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 00:44:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Purr.........Miaow -:- Re: It's the Cat. -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 05:01:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ The Hound -:- Re: It's the Cat. -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 04:48:45 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Er...Ummm...Barry... -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 00:35:37 (EST)
__ __ __ Barry -:- LOL LOL LOL LOL! -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 12:38:53 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Er...Ummm...Barry... -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 05:01:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Barry -:- Don't start that crap again Pat. -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 12:40:15 (EST)

web2002 -:- effort need with b-day info? -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 19:01:24 (EST)
__ web2002 -:- Re: effort need with b-day info? -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 15:41:00 (EST)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- We did that in the early seventies -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 09:52:55 (EST)
__ __ Loaf -:- Soo Glad you explained -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 22:56:06 (EST)
__ __ web2002 -:- Re: effort need with b-day info? -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 16:09:29 (EST)
__ Celebrity B'Day File -:- Dear jbsf..... -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 21:16:24 (EST)
__ __ Moll of Mole -:- other dates -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 21:56:14 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- You forgot the Big B-day... -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 21:29:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- June 16th 1962 [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 03:32:17 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- Interesting -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 19:39:44 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Ask Maharaji...good luck... [nt] -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 19:24:42 (EST)

Bai Ji -:- AMP -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 18:17:15 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- To Bai Ji -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 18:52:09 (EST)
__ __ Richard -:- Not the same AMP -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 19:52:09 (EST)
__ __ __ Opie -:- AMP sold in 1998 for $118 million -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 05:39:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Thanks for correction OP -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 12:45:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Bai Ji has a point -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 08:52:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Of course, that was her point -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 16:30:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: Bai Ji has a point -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 10:38:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- When was AMP, the company started... -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 11:34:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- On the point of donating -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 10:53:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Livia -:- oh, wonderful......not. [nt] -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 11:07:08 (EST)


Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 08:59:57 (EST)
From: Quiet
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Amaroo!
Message:
So what is going on in Amaroo? No press coverage? Q
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:10:23 (EST)
From: shout it all out
Email: None
To: Quiet
Subject: Re: Amaroo!
Message:
'No press coverage?' Not if I can help it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 06:45:33 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Amaroo Regional Event announced
Message:
From www.amaroo.org:-

Maharaji has accepted an invitation to attend a three-day event at Amaroo from Friday 19th April to Sunday 21st April 2002. This event is for people who have received the techniques of Self-Knowledge.

This is a regional event with an Australian, New Zealand and Pacific focus. International guests are warmly invited to attend.

The information pack will be available on the 22nd
February.

The pre-payment option that has been open for the
past few weeks will close on 22nd February. Thank you for the wonderful support for this initiative.

Event and accommodation registration will open for
Australia, New Zealand, Malaysia, Taiwan, Fiji, Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Tahiti and Thailand on the 1st March.

For people from other countries registration will open on the 16th March.

Registration will close on the 31st March.

Apart from locals being able to donate (oops, register) earlier, what's the difference between this regional event and an international event?

Also, note that Knowledge is now officially called Self-Knowledge.

John

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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 08:23:39 (EST)
From: Does Self-Knowledge mean
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: the same as 'auditioning the finger puppets'
Message:
this is what my evil mind makes me think when I hear the new cult term self-K
[ Is this the same as self-K ]
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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:22:51 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Does Self-Knowledge mean
Subject: Two Definitions
Message:
At home we had an Concise Oxford Dictionary bought when I was about 7 (1960) and the definition of Masturbate was 'Practice self abuse'. I looked up self abuse but it wasn't listed. When I grew older I bought myself a more up to date copy where the definition had changed to the more descriptive 'Produce an orgasm by exciting one's genitals'.

But really, if there is no proof that the experiences available through meditation are experiences of our real selves, or God, then Self-K has no qualitative difference to masturbation.

John.

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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 07:06:22 (EST)
From: ~)ITortItawaputtytat~)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Amaroo Regional Event announced
Message:
Oh you should come over and find out John! Beaches ,Sun,Good Food and wine,(terrific skating and ski jumping)
Pop over and find out what makes us different ~)
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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 10:17:55 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: ~)ITortItawaputtytat~)
Subject: Hey, putty cat........
Message:
John also needs travelling company, I'll volunteer to accompany him.
We can share the same tent but since I'm married, not the same bunk. We can pretend like we are back in the old ashram days.

Anyway, John ask for two tickets. Meet you at the airport in London?

You're rich right Cat? This is just a lark. We'll even meditate with you. Looking forward to meeting both of you.

Tonette, bound (is that homeward?)for Amaroo

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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 09:31:36 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: ~)ITortItawaputtytat~)
Subject: I'll come on one condition
Message:
You pay! You can easily get the funds to me by making a payment through PayPal (linked in www.ex-premie.org home page). As well as flight, I would need entrance costs and spending money. I'll let you work out how much it would be in total.

John the scrounger.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 12:03:23 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I learned nothing!
Message:
Below I was aking:'I've been out now for two years. I wonder what the pwks have learned in two years that I haven't?'. I asked this question based on an assumption that while I was a premie, I was learning as time went by. I now realise that that assumption is total bollocks. It's a trick of the light, a fantasy.

You don't learn anything from K. It hangs in front of you like a huge passive mystery and tells you nothing. Maha never speaks directly of it, implying that it is the Holy of holies, and that he as the technique-meister must therfore be God incarnate.

What you do get as your spiritual learning experience is a series of quickfire gems about life, gleaned from the teacher's stage routines. These you cling to and use as if you'd thought of them yourself They serve to surprise and off-balance non-premies whenever the topic of 'Life the universe' etc is raised. M 's got a million of 'em, and they can be quite pungent and disarming, conferring status, and confirming self esteem.

Tracing back my so called learning process, I find that it consisted in nothing more than a process of assimilating, repeating and then forgetting a long sequence of the master's gems and one liners!
Very very little more than that.

That plus access to a revelation myth, and an antique culture of mystical reverence in the eastern tradition. The social dimension and the process of growing older were the instructive dimension, that's where I learned, and I suspect that learning would have happened in any millieu one way or another.

I assume, because it was all good fun and things happened to me, that my cult days were a relevent part of a lifetime. But it would be very charitable of me now to assume that there wasn't an element of opportunism and spin involved in sustaining the whole show.

PWKs awake. I think you are just part of a rich man's hobby.

Love Bryn.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 14:29:55 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Do bad habits not count ? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 10:28:02 (EST)
From: Alert the press.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hide and Seek
Message:
Rawat is currently touring India. See 'Around the Planet' section of ELK. Satpal and the lead magazine 'India Times' have been alerted.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 11:11:18 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Alert the press.
Subject: Stupid game
Message:
Whoever you are, you're actually doing an excellent service to Rawat and EV doing this.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 03:19:31 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: All
Subject: How to show ALL POSTS as default
Message:
I found a way !.. change your shortcut/bookmark to :

http://66.37.7.139/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&all=yes

and the forum will automatically come up showing All threads

Heehee

This might be old news to you boffins, but I am chuffed.

Cheers Loafie :0)

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 04:00:30 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Here's the link
Message:
http://66.37.7.139/plus/plus.mirage?who=gl&all=yes
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 03:35:45 (EST)
From: jethro
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Thanks ofr that info
Message:
It's the little things in life that count.

:>)

Jethro

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 02:18:19 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Those cosmic experiences. Huh???
Message:
Joe posted an article, Blissing Out in Houston, by Francine du Plessix Gray, on Valentine's Day, February 14th. I am still reading the article, in bits and pieces – when saved to my hard drive, you understand, it's 19 pages long, so I'm reading it in bites.

I got to thinking about this quote, because it seemed germane to discussions that have been going on, on and off this board:

7 PM: I have dinner with Bob Hollowitz, the young doctor whom I saw collapsed in tears at the airport. He is a graduate of the University of Rochester Medical School, happily married, the father of a newborn son. . . .

'I'm suffering from the paradox of sufficiency and suffering,' he says. 'You see, I just didn't want temporary states of happiness as I occasionally found with mescaline…throughout the Sixties all my doctor friends were experimenting with various ways of expanding consciousness. But I wanted infinite happiness. I knew there was some cosmic truth that would be totally satisfying forever. I had gotten so close to it with some of the other experiences….'

I comment that most traditional schools of meditation—be they Buddhist, Zen, or Vedantist—urge one to remain on the side of brevity, starting at a few minutes a day, gradually working up to an hour over a period of months or years. Since Bob is a neurologist, does he not see any danger in plunging overnight into two hours of blissing-out sessions? But like most other premies he is uninterested in the traditional East.

'That's where surrender comes in,' the doctor answers, his eyes gleaming with adoration. 'Our meditation is passive and effortless, we just let Maharaj Ji do it for us…you've had this Knowledge inside you right along without recognizing it, so what Maharaj Ji does is to fill in the picture with one fell swoop, one big package…. At the time I received Knowledge I still couldn't accept him as God but later when I felt the lasting magnificence of that peace of meditation I accepted him….

Some ex-premies and current premies speak of cosmic experiences that they had in meditation when they first received K, that, they assume, led them know that 'Knowledge' and Mararaji were the 'Truth.' For many and most, those experiences did not last, and everyday meditation was not the cosmic, life changing experience it had been in the very beginning. Some people who are trying to exit the cult, or who have long exited the cult, have expressed some degree of confusion over these experiences. They are ready to leave the cult, or have left the cult, they see that Maharaji is a fraud, they may not even be practicing 'Knowledge,' but what about those experiences? There is a struggle or puzzle as to how to 'square' them with everything else that seems to be true. There is a clinging to them as seminal experiences of a deeper reality, the signposts on the road to bliss -- a longing for something left behind, perhaps not fully explored or explained.

What I wonder is whether, neurologically speaking, we had merely thrown our brains and our systems for a temporary 'loop.' Meditation was not something that many of us were doing, or were not doing seriously and regularly. Isn't it possible then, that plunging ourselves into long sessions of focusing on the techniques of K without introducing ourselves to the experience gradually merely had some interesting results? Instead of the normal sensory input that the brain was used to processing, we had several hours a day of doing the techniques of K with our eyes closed. We weren't sleeping, we weren't awake in the usual sense. It was something different. So, wowola. Some 'cosmic' stuff happened. Eventually, the brain got used to processing a few hours a day spent like that.

And to top it off, this meditation experience was taking place along with skazillion hours of satsang, and the 'realization' that the Lord was on the planet and had come for us!

I do know that what the interviewer was saying is true. I've heard Buddhist meditation teachers, for example, suggest that a beginner only sit down for 5 minutes at a time, then 10 minutes at a time, and that it was better to have several sessions a day of concentrated, focused time than to try and sit for long stretches. Most of us just went for it, at least in the early 70s, no holds barred. We left everything behind, or just about everything. We had sudden personality changes, we did things that were out of character.

The other thing I wonder is what happens to anyone, premie or non, when they think that the 'Lord' is alive and walking on the planet and that they can see 'him' and be accepted by 'him' as a disciple. Again, what does the brain do around that possibility? Is it possible that some of those cosmic experiences we had before we ever saw Maharaji, or the first time we saw him, were the product of the brain trying to process the foregoing information, especially with all the religious propaganda all of us were exposed to by religions we were brought up in, or merely by the society we came up in? First of all, that there is this 'Lord,' second of all, that this 'Lord' is alive and walking the planet? And then to actually be in 'his presence' and to 'know him'?

Frankly, I don't think I'd trust any of the experiences that happened in anticipation of 'Knowledge' or Maharaji, or my first contacts with 'Knowledge' or Maharaji, as some turning point or 'moment of truth' in my life. When looked at from this perspective, would you?

Bests,

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:15:27 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I did and still do
Message:
Frankly, I don't think I'd trust any of the experiences that happened in anticipation of 'Knowledge' or Maharaji, or my first contacts with 'Knowledge' or Maharaji, as some turning point or 'moment of truth' in my life. When looked at from this perspective, would you?

For me it was as strong, and not just from the beginning, but the learning from the journey even more so.
As importatant for me as my first 'one love' experiences on acid, and my first deep experiences on the dancefloor experiencing 'satsang' at a level and clarity I'd never experienced before, the kind of satsang 'experience' premies would have 'died' for at gm's festivals.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:22:17 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Ah, but it sounds like ...
Message:
... you've seen the essence or universality of something, rather than gotten stuck on the Maha. And the 'learning from the journey,' is that 'neat tattoo' Richard Rogers talked about a while ago.

I'm talking about people who can't kick the Maha because of that 'deep' experience they had in the beginning that kind of glued them to the feet (defeat).

Bests,

--f

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 19:59:17 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: neat tattoo
Message:
Francesca,

Funny what we recall from these posts. When I mentioned the 'neat tattoo', I was referring to a lost weekend (or couple of decades in this case) where you can't recall why you went or much of what happened but you have a souvenir tattoo to remind you of the time. For some, the remaining 'tattoo' is a curiosity and part of their character formation. For others, it's a mutilation that reminds them of their foolishness.

Mine is a curiosity because I think I gained value from my time served. M proved himself to be unworthy of my dedication, but it is the very act of dedication that taught me about myself. I created some very good design work while holding open the possibility of perfection. I learned to be responsible and work impeccably, traits that I profit from in business today.

If I had followed M literally and to the letter, perhaps my 'tattoo' would feel like a mutilation, too. I think I survived because I served a higher master than even GMJ presented himself to be. I served my own best interests. I bent the rules and never got distraught over whether or not I did the techniques correctly. Probably not 'surrendered ' in the parlance of the time but I took what I needed and left the rest.

And for the record, I have experienced non-attributed mediation to be highly beneficial. After walking away from M in 1987, I used to practice a variation on the techniques and I felt relaxed and had a clear and imaginitive mind. Attributing those experiences to M is what is destructive and causes co-dependence.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 20:05:23 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Postie speaks -- :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:31:26 (EST)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Re: Postie speaks -- :)
Message:
Ah, so true dear Francesca. But if Postie speaks in the woods and there is no one there to hear him, will he fall down?

Ponder this Koan for 10 years and return with your answer.

Postie aka Richard, who has been walking in the woods, talking to himself and feeling the brain chemistry put a smile on his face.

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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 04:01:40 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Happy brain chemistry to you, Postie
Message:
I don't think too many premies did exactly what Rawat wanted after the 80s for the simple reason that what he said was so open to interpretation. He and us were winging it. We for love and he for money. So we got out of it whatever we wanted. As you said, the most important thing in finding your own feet is not to attribute anything to him.

I kind of like my tattoo too. It's a bit embarassing like something done on a drunken youthful binge but not without some whimsical or sentimental value.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 12:58:23 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Partly mental problems
Message:
Bob Hollowitz clearly had mental problems as outlined in the Washington Post article below, so it's no wonder he 'collapsed in tears.' A few years later, he expected others to see him, not Maharaji, as God.

BTW, I think it's interesting that the article said only 7,000 showed up for the first night of Millennium. No wonder the Astrodome looked so empty.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 13:08:46 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Only 7,000 Millennium 1st day
Message:
Quoting from the article:

At one o'clock the Millennium begins. Rennie Davis had predicted that the Astrodome would be filled to capacity, with 100,000 people weeping to get in; that CBS and NBC would be carrying it live, with Walter Cronkite as anchorman; and that George Harrison and Bob Dylan would receive Knowledge that very weekend. Reality sucks. There are some 7,000 people on the first day, and the only TV coverage of the event is being done by some underground California outfit.

How does Rennie Davis feel today about the amazing stuff he said back in 1973, aliens at the Astrodome being just one of the more extreme examples? He must be mortified, and I assume this is part of the reason he pretty much has exited from any kind of public life.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 14:41:58 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Does this remind me of the old days ...
Message:
... or what? Maharaji will never live Millenium down unless he comes clean. Of course he never said he was God. He said that Guru Maharaji was GREATER than god. And of course, he called himself, uh, uh, Guru Maharaji.

The numbers were interesting, because I also recall that Millenium was a commercial disappointment.

Can you imagine Blue Aquarius on Stax Records? And Stax sent a new R & B artist, I think his name was Eric Mercury, to do a performance at Millenium. I think there was a full-page ad in Rolling Stone. I vaguely recall that the premies didn't pay much attention to him. Yeah, they had a lot of good talkers back in those days. Some of it hasn't changed, has it?

I remember those early days because the bliss ball made obvious inroads into the 'real world,' what with clueless mayors and city governments giving the M-ster the keys to the city in ceremonies like the one where Pat Halley pied the piper. Then there was people like Rennie Davis, with real reputations to lose, spouting the same wild stuff as the premies. And the embarassment of Bal Bhaghwan Ji's (Sat Pal today) 'science.'

My cousin's son told me (back in the mid 70s) that he saw me on a TV documentary about Millenium or about Maharaji. Just one of those quick sound bites, I'm sure. I can't imagine what I said, but it is certainly bound to be cringe material. Hopefully it is buried in some celluloid graveyard or has been trashbinned long ago. There was a reporters with a camera crew and a microphone that descended on a family reunion at a Soul Rush rally in Boston like crows on carrion. They went away when I opened a present from my mother. It was some clean, new underwear. Now-a-days, they would have shown that on TV, but back then it was like, ooops! Sorry we asked!

The quotes from Gallwey are interesting, based on what he's saying now. Was Gary Girard reviewed for Passages, and did any of his statements in that article contradict the Passages stuff?

Didn't know that the doctor that was interviewed (neurologist) wigged out. That was sad.

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:26:29 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: The illusion of large numbers
Message:
The way Maharaji and the premies spoke, it tended to create this illusion that there were large numbers of premies and large numbers of 'interested people,' when there never really were either. The number of active premies in the West was always pretty small and it's probably way less than half even that number now. Even now, the numbers the cult quotes are from India and as the authors said, those numbers are impossible to verify. They steadfastly avoid talking about actual numbers in the West because they are so pitifully small.

Some of the mayors (those were pretty innocuous commendations) thought there were more followers (potential voters), and also bought into this idea that hippies into drugs and filth cleaned up their acts and cut their hair when they became premies. A few testimonials like that got some of them interested.

Was Blue Aquarius ever actually on Stax Records?

Gary Girard was not in the Passages video, but Gallwey's comments are clearly lies in comparison to what he told that reporter in 1973.

Barbara is right that Joan Apter's letter to the editor sounds like it was written (badly) by a machine. It's scary. The authors' responses were right on, though.

I also thought Gary Girard's racist comments were revealing. I guess I have my theories about why hardly any black people were ever interested in Maharaji. They are along the lines of when a group of people have been fucked over for hundreds of years, they are little better at avoiding letting it happen to them again. Something like being able to spot a con a lot better than some upper middle class white kids looking for a way to get high all the time, and not being the least offended by the fact that they were devoting to a fat little putz who had a thing for Rolls Royces, Rolexes and gold toilets.

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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 04:40:27 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: The illusion of large numbers
Message:
Yep, Blue Aquarius really were on Stax Records - it was the second album. Hard to believe, I know, but true.

What you said about the lack of black premies is interesting, and probably true. I remember going out 'propogating' in a park in Houston before Millenium, handing out fliers to anybody and everybody. I'm English and I remember noticing that the black people there looked much more hip and confident than the black people in England did at that time. Most of them took one look at the fliers and laughed in my face - none of them looked like they needed Maharaji, that was for sure.

With love, Livia

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:40:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I don't think so, Joe
Message:
I also thought Gary Girard's racist comments were revealing. I guess I have my theories about why hardly any black people were ever interested in Maharaji. They are along the lines of when a group of people have been fucked over for hundreds of years, they are little better at avoiding letting it happen to them again. Something like being able to spot a con a lot better than some upper middle class white kids looking for a way to get high all the time, and not being the least offended by the fact that they were devoting to a fat little putz who had a thing for Rolls Royces, Rolexes and gold toilets.

I don't think that's the case. If it were, what about Louis Farrakhan? I think the main reason is that rejecting the world and setting off on quixotic journies to the east, real or imaginary, was a white, mainstream, middle-class and upper middle-class pursuit for the most part.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 17:36:19 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Completely Different Thing
Message:
Louis Farrakhan was also offering a political rationale to people, which was much more attractive than any Religion, although religion was the structure.

Maharaji, of course, was completely ignorant politically and offered nothing other than those other things you mentioned, mostly of the 'feel good' 'get high' and focus on your experience bullshit, just like EST, Lifespring, etc., which also attract very few minorities.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:30:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hardly
Message:
Joe,

Black people can and do get conned just as easily as whites. Farrakhan's just an example. I still say that it wasn't that blacks were less susceptible to the con as that there weren't a whole lot of black hippies, new age seekers or the like.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:00:35 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: L.O.T.U.
Message:
Francesca,
I'm surprised that you are unaware of the movie Lord of the Universe LOTU for short. A few people here own it and it has been kind of chain-mailed around, I saw it and sent it along. Anyway it's very funny, along with dark and disturbing. Interesting that you are one of the participants in LOTU. It certainly isn't 'buried in some celluloid graveyard or has been trashbinned long ago'
Definitely a 'must see'.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:11:34 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: I know about L.O.T.U.
Message:
But I haven't seen it yet. So many of my friends have, that I doubt that I was in that one. Probably luckily for me, some East Coast TV station thought it was of interested around the time of the Millenium 'buzz,' made a documentary, and then archived it or tossed it. I know that before Soul Rush and Millenium, the premies were on TV shows in the Boston area several times. But usually all they had me do was sing a song, or our Soul Rush theater troup do something or other, and not do the talking.

Bests,

==f

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 07:38:56 (EST)
From: Serious trouble for
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Dr. Hollowitz in the 90's
Message:
I think he is the one I saw on TV news for using his position as doctor to seduce his female patients. His involvement w/ M was also briefly mentioned in the report. I think it was in the D.C. area if this is the same cult member.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 12:38:46 (EST)
From: Yes, serious trouble for
Email: None
To: Serious trouble for
Subject: Re: Dr. Hollowitz in the 90's
Message:
Here is a Washington Post story on that Dr. Hollowitz. The guy clearly has mental problems, including thinking he was God, so his fainting, and having delusional experiences at Millennium shouldn't be surprising in retrospect and the least of his problems. Note the reference to "a kind of cultism":

7 Physician's License Suspended [Gaithersburg, MD]

Gaithersburg, MD, family physician Robert A. Hollowitz, 48,
has been suspended by the state medical licensing board in April
following allegations that he had sex and used illegal drugs
with several patients and portrayed himself as the 'embodiment
of God' on a mission to bring 'light and love into the world'
by fathering children. One former patient of Hollowitz, who
specializes in the treatment of chronic fatigue syndrome, said
he instructed her to find a motel room on pain of being 'cast
into darkness' with the devil, and that he smoked marijuana
during his midday liaisons with the woman, who attempted suicide
twice after she ended the relationship in 1990. The director
of the state Board for Physician Quality Assurance said, 'this
is definitely one of the most bizarre cases that has ever come
before the board. It deals with sex, drugs, and a kind of cultism.'
(From 'Doctor's License Is Suspended,' by Amy Goldstein, The
Washington Post, 5/1/93, D3)

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 07:07:58 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Leaving it all behind...
Message:
Hi Fran,

What I wonder is whether, neurologically speaking, we had merely thrown our brains and our systems for a temporary 'loop.' Meditation was not something that many of us were doing, or were not doing seriously and regularly. Isn't it possible then, that plunging ourselves into long sessions of focusing on the techniques of K without introducing ourselves to the experience gradually merely had some interesting results? Instead of the normal sensory input that the
brain was used to processing, we had several hours a day of doing the
techniques of K with our eyes closed. We weren't sleeping, we weren't awake in the usual sense. It was something different. So, wowola. Some 'cosmic' stuff happened. Eventually, the brain got used to processing a few hours a day spent like that.

I wouldn't characterize what happened to our brains as 'cosmic,' because I haven't a clue what that means. But that's just one word. I'd call it being in a dissociate trance-state. We did what we were taught to do in the cult and obedience was mandatory.

This matter has been of great concern to me since so many new exes have been coming here for exiting advice and support. I do think it's important to discuss it and I've been looking for information about the affects any meditation has on the brain, but in particular meditations taught in a cult environment. TM has been found to be detrimental to followers and exiters both emotionally and physically. We were subject to commonly used cult-programming techniques. The meditation part was used to deprive us of our mind/thinking processes, not temporarily but for extended periods of our lives--years, and decades for some.

Mind control using ''knowledge meditation'' has obviously been quite injurious and dangerous based upon what so many exes have said here, as well as the reports I've read of other similar ex-cult members. The marathon meditations, satsangs, darshan, and work in a cult can cause dissociative states of varying degrees, exacerbated by exhaustion, and the brain/mind's struggle to find it's way out. This dissociation, depersonalization, or floating is also described By Margaret Singer as a state of control over a cult member during and after cult leaving. On some of the ex-cult sites I've read that cult exiters who have been in meditation cults should not meditate at all. Period. It's simply unhealthy to continue to use the techniques taught for purposes of mind control. Fact is, it may be very possible that all the elements of the cult have caused damage to our brains (in what particular way, is what I'm looking for).

Upon leaving a cult, it's been recommended by several experts that people not listen to new agey music especially to help one fall asleep. One recommendation is to put a talk radio station on to stimulate the brain (but not Rush Limbaugh):) Everything I've read so far about meditation/personality cults describes similar mind control routines. I don't think it's only our cult's brand of meditation because I've read that the Krishna cult members place themselves into trances during frenzied dancing and chanting. It's the same with the fundamentalist Christian cults which teach new believers how to speak in tongues in healing ceremonies. All enter a trance state and feel what we call bliss. Odd, that we all use that bliss word and claim to be saved. It's all learned behavior as part of the programming process. Because the brain/mind/emotions are placed on hold for extended periods of time, who knows what the brain is doing in a cult member's head. I remember having severe migraine headaches after I joined the cult and started in on the techniques. These were distinctly different from the types of dissociative/splitting headaches I used to experience because of my MPD.

In our cult, as with many others of this type, meditation, repetitive listening to discourses, receiving special attention as aspirants, and the total focus upon the master/messiah figure, as well as mandatory service all contribute to the state which is referred to as ''blissing out.'' I do believe that neurologically something horrible to our brains may have happened because of the overload of all of the cultic practices.

I'm seriously concerned about recent discussions here, with the usual varying opinions,:) of keeping knowledge and leaving maharaji. I'm concerned because those particular meditation practices are not only designed to place premies in a position of subserviant mind control, vis a vis, being tranced out, but have caused dissociation which ex-cultists have to learn through conscious practice not to do. I'm an expert on dissociation. Believe me, it took me daily practice for years to learn how not to dissociate. Then a point is reached when there is a natural control over the dissociative process in the brain/mind and emotional response. Post traumatic stress disorder is also a major factor because of flashbacks which may occur if the techniques are continued. I think it's very unhelpful to practice any meditation, even for relaxation, until that dissociation or floating is under control. If I had been a Krishna devotee and left that cult why would I continue to do my daily dancing and mantra chanting? It's all about mind control which I know has an affect on the central nervous system because I have personally experienced it, and I also have read similar accounts from other ex-premies and ex-followers of other cults.

We walk a fine line here, trying to give support to newly exiting premies (and ourselves) by saying ''it's a matter of choice'' to continue to practice knowledge by merely saying ''don't call it knowledge anymore.'' Frankly I think that's absurd. Either a person is leaving the cult and all of it's trappings or not. It dosen't make any sense to me to retain any aspect of the cult. I think it prolongs the exiting process. It's not only about the association of the knowledge techniques with Maharaji per se, or the length of time practiced as taught by maharaji. Maharaji's knowledge/meditation is a huge part of the whole package that was sold to us and aided
him in keeping us in his control by demonizing the mind.

I've been thinking about this a lot because there are some very fragile people who have come here and I won't partipate in making recommendations that could be dangerous to anyone's mental health. For new exes, I would recommend a few things: A. stop meditation immediately; B. cut off all personal contact with premies and the cult (unless it's a spouse or other unavoidable contact); C. take all photos of m, videos, audio tapes, and other trappings, including t-shirts, mugs, and other Visions crap, put it in a box, bury it in a closet and don't look at them until some emotional physical strength has been regained; D. Get off of all mailing lists related to the cult; and E. Start to reintegrate into the real world at one's own pace, i.e., go to movies, read, invite non-premie friends to visit or visit them. There are more, but I've been up all night and can't think of them right now.

The other thing I wonder is what happens to anyone, premie or non, when they think that the 'Lord' is alive and walking on the planet and that they can see 'him' and be accepted by 'him' as a disciple. Again, what does the brain do around that possibility? Is it possible that some of those cosmic experiences we had before we ever saw Maharaji, or the first time we saw him, were the product of the brain trying to process the foregoing information, especially with all the religious propaganda all of us were exposed to by religions we were brought up in, or merely by the society we came up in? First of all, that there is this 'Lord,' second of all, that this 'Lord' is alive and walking the planet? And then to actually be in 'his presence' and to 'know him'?

Again, I don't believe anything comic happened. I have to admit I have an aversion to that word, but Fran, don't stop using it because of me. The experiences we had were a result of intensive cult brainwashing. Period. Nothing cosmic about it. We were sold a bill of goods and ate it whole. My opinion is that all of the aspects of cult indoctrination caused something to happen in the brain/thinking circuitry (and I'm still looking for some scientific verification on this), which is connected to our perceptions that caused us to adapt and adopt distorted thinking patterns. This also caused us to be emotionally dysfunctional and develop dissociative reactions.

I gave up my free will and my freedom of thought and action to maharaji and the cult. Hallucinations, mass hysteria happen in cults every day. Why did people believe Jim Jones was God? Same thing, different bill of goods.

Fran, I know you meditate and I believe you are a strong woman and if it gives you something I don't fault you for it. I am not criticizing your personal choices. But here, where people are leaving a meditation/personality cult, I would never recommend meditation.

Best
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 17:09:05 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Meditation and emotions
Message:
Great posts Francesca & Cynthia. Two sides of the same coin IMO.

I've always been curious about how meditation works in the physical sense, & came to the conclusion a long time ago that in some way, at some times,& for some people it brings one close to death. Or at least mimics death. I have no objective proof for this supposition.

Why this should be so I have no idea,& if the supposition is wrong then obviously even less than none. I do think that taking an ideological stand on whether or not there is a god based on these sort of speculations is irrelevant.

After the cult loosened up in the '80's my meditation practice became irregular. I didn't feel guilty anymore if I missed a session & so missed many. At the time I thought what a great master the Bollix was for having untightened the thumbscrews.

When I hadn't meditated for a while though,I used to feel uneasy or something,fragile,on the edge,something like that,& had to go back to it. Those periods of not meditating were never longer than a couple of months.

Now I haven't meditated for the 16 months since I found EPO & found out the truth about GMJ. I haven't felt any need to at all,which makes me conclude that the only reason I felt the need in the past was because of how it was all mixed up with the belief system around Rawat.

This is a very complicated subject & I have to say that I agree with you both. Some people do get benefit from doing it & for others it can be dangerous. I certainly agree with you Cynthia that anyone leaving Rawatworld through reading these pages should give it a rest for a bit & see what happens.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:32:27 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: I definitely gave it all a rest when I left
Message:
It seemed that my 'practice' of K dwindled down to almost nothing. Five to 10 minutes of the breath stuff, without much of a thought of doing anything but starting my workday in a calm manner. It may be a necessary part of the process for many of us, and for some of us, of course, a good idea to just quit -- at least K -- for good. Then when I did get interested in doing some form of meditation again, it was without the premie-ji you are spacing out twinges and the Maha baggage. I was overall more interested in techniques that put me in my body and in touch with everything around me, and helped me to chill out, rather than techniques that spaced me out and got me into disassociation.

Since there are so many different types of people that have ended up so many different types of ways based on personal, societal and environmental influence, and there are so many different types of meditation techniques, some not connected with with 'mind control' or cults, it's impossible to make an absolute statement as to the goods and bads of it.

That's why I think M is now trying to lump his K-lite version into self-knowledge. Then it's more like an innocuous self-help sort of thing. But it will never work, because he needs planes, boats, accountants and lawyers. And sycophants to treat with disdain, it seems.

Bests,

F

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 22:51:42 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: getting rid of the religion
Message:
Back in the cult I used to feel lousy if I did not meditate every morning religiously. When I quit practicing it as the religion of Maharajism, I did what and when I wanted and felt none of the religious guilt which is what made me feel lousy - like grabbing a hamburger after satsang at the ashram back in the days when only Rawat was allowed to eat meat or sneaking a smoke during breaks at festivals.

To me the most important thing is to rebel against the religion whether that means quitting meditating or doing another one or even doing more as I did when I first got out. I did that in rebellion because the current cult attitude toward meditaing, the new phony K-lite, is just so much like plastic mall music I felt like a nice loud symphony.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:15:59 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: I definitely gave it all a rest when I left
Message:
That's why I think M is now trying to lump his K-lite version into self-knowledge. Then it's more like an innocuous self-help sort of thing. But it will never work, because he needs planes, boats, accountants and lawyers. And sycophants to treat with disdain, it seems.

Can't disagree with that.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 13:48:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The necessary tension between exes
Message:
Great post, Cynth. There's a necessary tension between exes who think that Knowledge is legit or at least somehow beneficial or, failing that, innocuous at worst and those of us who think it's bunk and unhealthy and disorienting. What disturbs me so much is how a climate of sorts has developed in which it's not politically correct here for people to argue about this. It's as if everyone thinks there's this safe general point on which we all can agree -- 'M bad' as in Pat W's recent post 'Knowledge good / M bad' -- and any further debate on the actual meditation is almost bad form. I'm sorry, leaving M DOES open a whole can of worms. It SHOULD cause people to re-examine all of their related practises and beliefs. It's most unfortunate the way that kind of scrutiny is frowned upon here as brow beating. Most unfortunate indeed.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:48:14 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Beyond Policical Correctness...
Message:
Jim,

There's a necessary tension between exes who think that Knowledge is legit or at least somehow beneficial or, failing that, innocuous at worst and those of us who think it's bunk and unhealthy and disorienting. What disturbs me so much is how a climate of sorts has developed in which it's not politically correct here for people to argue about this. It's as if everyone thinks there's this safe general point on which we all can agree -- 'M bad' as in Pat W's recent post 'Knowledge good / M bad' -- and any further debate on the actual meditation is almost bad form. I'm sorry, leaving M DOES open a whole can of worms. It SHOULD cause people to re-examine all of their related practises and beliefs. It's most unfortunate the way that kind of scrutiny is frowned upon here as brow beating. Most unfortunate indeed.

My concern is not about there being a taboo about discussing meditation here, quite the contrary. I think it must be discussed. I re-read the 'Knowledge Good/Gurus Bad' thead and it struck me in a different way than when the arguments took place. Btw, I don't like the term 'argue' per se because I am not good at it, not in a scholarly way, anyway. Good, healthy discussion would be my preference, but everyone has their own approach.

I am not out to debunk the benefits of some meditation practices, either. I am also not out to argue the existence of a higher power or universal life force, either. I know you are an aethist, but Jim, you ain't gonnna convince everyone about your beliefs.

My serious concerns are that this forum and EPO have become places where exiting premies, ex-cult-members, are coming to look for relief and advice and support for their own existing process. We cannot ignore that and must be responsible and informed about helping these folks out. I question those who claim that Maharaji's meditation is okay. Maharaj's capital K Knowledge played one of the most important roles as part of the cult programming processes because it placed premies in a state of submission because of the length of time we meditated, the devotion and connection to Maharaji, and the fact that prolonged meditation places premies in a beta state, rather than an alpha state, i.e., know as being ''flat.''

I particularly question the ex-premies who were trained instructors (and to those of you who were, this is not meant to offend you) making statements that K is good, because they received a much heavier dose of cult progamming and need to reassess what took place there. I don't look to them as the experts here and I find it dangerous for anyone, especially the ex-instructors here, to say that 'Knowledge is good and okay to practice.'

My post may have painted a dark picture on meditation as John stated below. That was my intention. I see no distinctions between Maharaji and the Knowledge meditation techniques. IMO both are bad. Knowledge was the hook or tool used along with other programming techniques to recruit new cult members. It caused damage, the proportionsof which we need to explore, seriously and in a stable manner, perhaps with the help of some experts who do cult exit counseling. I'm looking into that, also.

I wish I counted the number of times I have heard new exes, some who are very fragile emotionally and physically, express that they are ''floating.'' This is a symptom or after affect of leaving what I have come to consider a dangerous mind control cult--Maharajism and his Knowledge meditation.

So I want my issue here to be clear. Knowledge and Maharaji are inseparable. To suggest that's it's safe to continue practicing the techniques is irresonsible, IMO. What Barbara said below stated my feelings exactly. She said that she was in a state of confusion and when her friend suggested she stop meditation, she snapped out of it. Very telling, don't you think?

And as I said in my post here: If I was in the Krishna cult, why on earth would I continue to chant and perform frenzied dancing at home, when that's what I am trying to escape?

Again, I am not up for big arguments here but informed and responsible conversation. I am concerned about ex-premies being able to get information about what is the healthiest way to leave the cult. We cannot just say that this is a public forum and anything goes. Those of us involved with this forum and EPO have responsibilites by virtue of our presence here on F7.

I'm open to discuss this. And I'm not upset. Just very concerned.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:35:55 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Great post Cynthia
Message:
It really clarifies your views, and I think what you are saying is reasonable!

Bests,

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 20:21:36 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Ditto :) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 19:02:59 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: To Francesca...
Message:
Thanks Fran,

My first post was in no way intended to disparage your beliefs and life practices.

When that first thread 'K yes, M no' was going on I intentionally avoided it because I don't like to argue. Of course, with exceptions. ;)

I enjoy good stimulating conversations and learning from others' points of view then coming to my own conclusions. I suspect you are the same.

I also feel a responsibility as someone who has been away from the cult from some time, to help others work through their difficulties. That's just how I am. I like to help others, especially those who come here for help.

Again, thanks,
Be well,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 20:10:11 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Something in common
Message:
Cynthia,

I was not diagnosed with a disassociate disorder, but I did suffer from extreme disassociation as a teenager, and then got in trouble after a while because I could no longer turn it on and off. It started when my folks would sit me in a chair and yell at me as a teenager. I found a way to escape and 'not be there,' rather than listen to them. (Yes, they were extreme and I was stubborn.) Eventually it spaced me out because I could not control that ability. Due to dealing with some other mental traumas at about age 18, I finally got that back under control.

I can be so spacey that, for me, focusing and concentration in meditation has the effect of making me less spacey. But of course, it depends upon exactly WHAT one is focusing on!

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:05:26 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Maybe because the experience gained
Message:
from the practice enhanced their sense of 'spiritual' reality, or maybe it enhasnces their sense of god's presence.

re your comments re kriashnas who've left.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:27:33 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Couldn't agree more (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:23:03 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: The necessary tension between exes
Message:
What disturbs me so much is how a climate of sorts has developed in which it's not politically correct here for people to argue about this

I agree with John below that I thought there was a good debate from time to time on this, and I do not detect that it is politically incorrect. I thought you and Francesca had a great debate going a few days ago - I enjoyed it thoroughly.

I think it is important to clarify terms here. For example, I find even your phrase

'Knowledge good / M bad' -- and any further debate on the actual meditation...

confusing. In my opinion we have 3 terms:

1) 'Knowledge' meaning just the 4 techniques that M teaches;

2) 'Knowledge' meaning the 4 techniques plus all the devotion, surrender and grace and the whole belief system that a premie has to swallow in order for them to be 'practising Knowledge'.

3) 'Meditation' which is a huge term to signify practically anything that is a repeatable attempt to fix one's attention on some part of the mental world.

So when you say:

There's a necessary tension between exes who think that Knowledge is legit or at least somehow beneficial...

which version of Knowledge are you meaning ?

For me, Knowledge meaning the 4 techniques only, I think is innocuous, but also pretty empty. Knowledge in the 2nd meaning, being to give over your life to Maharaji in many ways, of which the Knowledge techniques are one, I unequivocally reject.

But to go from this position to assert that everything that can legitimately be called 'meditation' is ' bunk and unhealthy and disorienting' is a far stretch.

For me personally (and I think for Francesa, although I am not speaking for her) I have found a form of mental activity, which is one particular type of 'meditation' that I find rewarding and valuable. It is a million miles from Knowledge in either of the two senses I define above.

To argue that 'Knowledge is a waste of time, therefore all meditation is a waste of time' is a logical non-sequitur that is pointed out in the first lesson of any logic course -- the fallacy of arguing from one particular instance to universality.

-- Mike

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:55:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad
Message:
I think that, at a minimum, the word 'Knowledge' means a special kind of knowing that surpasses all others. That's why it gets to be called 'Knowledge' with a capital 'k'. It's like 'Truth' with a capital 't'. The very notion suggests that all other variants are inferior.

But how could that be? Well, the way the story goes, there is indeed a greater reality inside. 'Knowledge' lets you experience it and it does so by allowing you to get past your mind. Your mind, therefore, becomes the enemy if for no other reason than the fact that it's in the way. That's a hefty assumption and one, I believe, that's wrong and unhealthy.

Now, I guess it's possible, theoretically, for someone to use the word 'Knowledge', capital 'k' and all, to mean nothing more no less than four meditation techniques. But, even then, the techniques are still understood as the vehicles to get you past your mind. It's still in the way any way you look at it.

Now, the reality is, that this 'Knowledge' idea comes laden with much more baggage than that. This was, after all, the supposed revelation of our true selves which we expected to somehow take us over as it cast of our worldly personalities like molting snake skin. It was Maharaji himself within each one of us. It was the most precious gift of all gifts, the very thing that Milarepa had to build and tear down those three stone houses for. It was the only life saver we had in a drowning world of death and illusion. It was the sole property of the one and only Lord incarnate. That is, beyond question, a lot of baggage and I, for one, don't think that people who still do the meditation, even if they reject Maharaji, have truly jettisoned all those concepts. Do you?

Anyway, as for Fran and my discussion the other day, you might have enjoyed it thoroughly but this was her final say on the subject:

So, Jim, I hope this is the end of this thread and no more back-and-forth needed. I'm not trying to change your views on any of this, but you keep asking questions and part of me thinks you deserve a response. But these long replies take too much time! Your tendency to let no comment go unchallenged that is favorable to meditation or any sort of internal experiences that border on the spiritual, has a chilling effect. I think you may well know this, and seem to be watchdogging the Forum in order to keep it free of such content, and to control its tone. I cringed at making the post that started this whole thread, thinking that this would happen – and it did! I believe this is what you want – to either debate us to death until our POV is clarified and acceptable to you, or scare such comments off the Forum entirely. I noticed that you are going at it below with Brian Smith, as well. In having to exhaustively explain myself and have every such comment be challenged by you is not conducive to a free and open discussion. It makes me not want to bother to deal with the challenge, debate and hair splitting, and thus I avoid making certain statements on this Forum. (Maybe this can give you a clue as to some of the subjects I discuss on RE.) I question why you cannot accept other people's views in this regard at face value, but invariably challenge every such post.

which just proves my point.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:38:59 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad
Message:
I, for one, don't think that people who still do the meditation, even if they reject Maharaji, have truly jettisoned all those concepts. Do you?

No, clearly they haven't - but you are using the phrase the meditation -- so presumably you are referring to Knowledge here. I agree with you: If you reject Maharaji, and yet still practise Knowledge, as premies mean the term with all the baggage, then that seems to me a pretty glaring contradiction.

My point is the fact that you in other posts you come close to arguing: If you reject Maharaji, you must reject Knowledge (I agree); if you reject Knowledge, then it makes sense to reject everything that can conceivably be called 'meditation' (I don't agree).

That is all. As far as Fran is concerned, I am not speaking for her, and I apologise to both of you for coming to close to that in my previous post. When you quote some of Fran's last post, and then say it 'proves my point' I am afraid I am not sure exactly what the point is.

I think we agree that Maharaji and Knowledge are so inextricably entwined that you must reject both or neither. I am more interested in the much, much bigger topic of 'meditation' in general - in particular, I find the argument I practised Maharaji's meditation, but I now reject Maharaji, so I reject all meditation as being disappointing and as I said, a non-sequitur. Of course, people may feel this, and that is fine. My point is simply that it is possible to reject Maharaji and Knowledge, and yet find another meditation in a totally different tradition beneficial and worthwhile - that is all !!

Take care

-- Mike

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:46:23 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: I agree with you Mike
Message:
And don't worry about 'speaking for me.' Trying to understand someone else is not anything to feel sorry for.

The fact that I chose not to continue a debate with Jim is not grounds for Jim to say that he can't debate with others on this Forum. It's not like there was anyone agreeing with the POV I expressed in that post, for cripe's sake. For the record, no one jumped into that part of the thread and expressed an opinion either way (unless I missed something that was posted in the past little while or something). In fact, other people (like you) have been telling Jim (in other threads) that they welcome debate or at least don't mind it.

For the record, I don't mind a little of it -- I just don't want a full cavity search by the Skeptics Society. I do not bend spoons! Honest!!!

Bests,

F

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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 04:11:05 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I also don't care...
Message:
... to spend time 'debating' the merits of meditation. What the heck for? If you like it, good for you. If you don't, fine. I couldn't care less.

When I first started posting here, some folks really were bothered that I still meditate, and kept urging me to stop it. I felt it was really none of their business, but I did listen to their reasons. Some of them were very good reasons, good reasons for THEM, considering their experiences. It might be a good option for many people, but I think that is for each individual to decide for his or her self. I left the cult, so that I COULD decide for myself.

There have been comments on the forum from time to time, about people who meditate being 'breath-watchers' or 'navel-gazers', somehow mentally deficiant, which I find rude and insulting. It almost made me stop posting on the forum altogether.

But then I realized that the forum was just like the real world; people can be rude and insulting about things they strongly dislike. And as one of the meditation haters himself told me, this forum is not a cult, nobody here has to agree with anyone about anything. That was one of the best pieces of advice I was given here, and I hope any new people reading or posting here will take it to heart, because it is exactly opposite of what the cult did or tried to do to us. You are free to think anything you wish, just as anyone is free to argue with you about it.

It also helped me realize that 'meditation' really is such a subjective thing anyway, I couldn't even 'defend' it if I wanted to. Besides, does it even NEED defending? People who hate it are certainly entitled to that opinion. I could waste my time arguing about why I meditate, but WHY? I don't NEED anyone to agree with me about it being a good or bad thing, anymore than I need anyone to agree with me that Opera is better than Baseball. I can think of lots more enjoyable things to do with my time than argue about meditation.

Many people who have stayed in the cult for many years may have done so partially because they percieved some benefit from meditation. Like me, many may be shocked to find that the so-called special, secret techniques were really the most common garden-variety yoga techiniques, freely available from many sources. Maharaji claimed he was stripping away religion and making it all very simple, but actually, he took something very simple, and made it complicated. Religion often does this. In India yoga is often mixed with religion, and he simply modified some of that Indian religion to make it more palitable to westerners.

He dropped some of the Indian trappings, claiming to make it all simpler, but it was still the same old bhakti ju-ju old-time religon, aimed at a western audience.

I think David Lane's description on EPO, of when David revealed the techniques to his high-school and college students, and his observations of their reactions, showed how simple yoga without religion can be. No Aspirant Process or Guru necessary to have an 'experience'. Just being alive is enough.

So if premies really do reject Maharaji and his "Knowledge", but want to explore other forms of meditation, because they did like sitting quietly sometimes, they can. They don't need anyones permission or approval. After leaving a cult, that is the LAST thing anyone wants to feel.

P.S. There is also a great irony here, that I think is lost on some of the old timers who left the cult many years ago. All this fuss about meditation! And all those things you were told about KNOWLEGE so many years ago...

In the last few years, before I left the cult last year, it seemed like Maharaji talked more and more about himself, and the importance of The Master, and less and less about 'Knowledge'. In fact, it seems that in recent years, he has spent more time talking about what Knowlege can't/won't/doesn't do, than what it DOES do for you. There were many times when he would be going on about what it won't do for you, and I would think, ''Geez, he only ever talks about what it DOESN'T do. Why would anyone even want THAT?''.

What Knowedge ''IS'' and or "does" has been deliberately kept nebulous. The techiniques are only a part of M's Special K package, and Maharaji has even said at times that Knowledge isn't really even meditation (I agree. How about 'Bhakti'?). He has been claiming less and less for 'Knowledge' and what it does, lest it should compete in importance with 'The Master'. 'Knowledge' doesn't really do anything, The Master does it all. At least Maharaji would have you think so. Many thoroughly modern PWK's will tell you that the meditation techiniqes are really quite incidental, which is why they have been religated to DVD. MAHARAJI is what it's all about.

Joy once said to me that Maharaji just used the yoga techiniques as a lure to get people interested in him. She was exactly right.

Maharaji isn't the first crook to take something simple like some yoga techniques, mix it with a lot of crap and lies and get rich from it. He won't be the last either. But meditation is a broad catagory in itself. I see no reason why it can't be separated from those who have mixed it up with religion and used it to enrich themselves.

Those who think meditation is a bunch of crap are certainly welcomed to think so. It's not a big deal. But if anyone wants to talk about people who meditate as being navel-gazing, breath-watching morons, they will just have to excuse me if this breath watcher doesn't say ''Thanks for sharing''. I don't see that being vehemently against meditation in any and all forms and circumstances is particularly helpful to anyone.

Just because The Goober used meditation as a lure, doesn't mean every form of meditation is a danger to be feared and loathed. That's too much like believing in ju-ju.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:10:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Get real, Fran
Message:
Re-read your post again:

So, Jim, I hope this is the end of this thread and no more back-and-forth needed. I'm not trying to change your views on any of this, but you keep asking questions and part of me thinks you deserve a response. But these long replies take too much time! Your tendency to let no comment go unchallenged that is favorable to meditation or any sort of internal experiences that border on the spiritual, has a chilling effect. I think you may well know this, and seem to be watchdogging the Forum in order to keep it free of such content, and to control its tone. I cringed at making the post that started this whole thread, thinking that this would happen – and it did! I believe this is what you want – to either debate us to death until our POV is clarified and acceptable to you, or scare such comments off the Forum entirely. I noticed that you are going at it below with Brian Smith, as well. In having to exhaustively explain myself and have every such comment be challenged by you is not conducive to a free and open discussion. It makes me not want to bother to deal with the challenge, debate and hair splitting, and thus I avoid making certain statements on this Forum. (Maybe this can give you a clue as to some of the subjects I discuss on RE.) I question why you cannot accept other people's views in this regard at face value, but invariably challenge every such post.

You're hardly just talking about yourself, now are you? In fact, you're trying to get me to just back off, shut up and leave you and anyone else I might want to harass about meditation or spirituality well enough alone. This all in the context of me questioning the basis for any purported teacher of meditation's expertise. By the way, I did get an email from Brian who told me that I really shook him up that day and how grateful he was that you said something. Yeah right! :| Fact is, Brian did contact me only to say he enjoyed the discussion. You, on the other hand, wanted to shut me up. That's exactly the attitude I was talking about.

You asked me to guess what you guys talk about on RE. Hm, that's a hard one. :_

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 17:16:00 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad
Message:
Hi Mike,

I am more interested in the much, much bigger topic of 'meditation' in general - in particular, I find the argument I practised Maharaji's meditation, but I now reject Maharaji, so I reject all meditation as being disappointing and as I said, a non-sequitur. Of course, people may feel this, and that is fine. My point is simply that it is possible to reject Maharaji and Knowledge, and yet find another meditation in a totally different tradition beneficial and worthwhile - that is all !!

I agree with you what you said, except that I do think that during the fragile beginning of leaving M and K, it's not good advice to tell people it's ok to explore other meditations (there are so many!) until they've had the chance to regain themselves.

The length of time it takes to rid oneself of the cultic aspects of meditation is individual. I think we all need to take resonsibility and take care in giving any advice that may hurt people.

I'm not against meditation at all. I'm concerned about the dissociative states caused by the Knowledge meditation and other after affects. Turning to another meditation could be harmful to new exes. I want to help and talking about this here is important.

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 17:38:27 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad
Message:
I'm not against meditation at all. I'm concerned about the dissociative states caused by the Knowledge meditation and other after affects. Turning to another meditation could be harmful to new exes. I want to help and talking about this here is important.

I agree with you Cynthia, but I think different people have different needs.

I, for one, was the opposite of what you describe, in that my biggest fear in stopping practising K was of not doing a meditation !! I realise now that this is unbalanced, but in that initial fragile state of a premie exiting, there are some who want, even need, to discuss what's next, or what will replace K.

I accept however that such people may well be in a minority, and that for the majority turning to another meditation could be harmful as you say.

...not good advice to tell people it's ok to explore other meditations (there are so many!) until they've had the chance to regain themselves...

I am certainly not offering that advice - in fact, I did not even think that we were discussing how best to advise people exiting. My only point (I think) is there are some ex-premies for whom other meditations are an important issue - it may well be that this group is a minority (even a minority of one - me; or perhaps a minority of two - Fran and me !!).

Take care

-- Mike

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 19:32:13 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: and me, Mike
Message:
and quite a few others too.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:48:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad
Message:
Mike,

The kind of meditation that concerns me, whether you call it 'Knowledge' or not, is the kind that's based on the premise that the mind is depriving us from a treasure within or is somehow harmful. Hell, there might even BE some truth in that last notion (I fully reject the first), but, yeah, I'm concerned about it.

My point in quoting Fran was just that you were using our exchange, hers and mine, as an example of the good debates we have on the subject here. But that was in response to my initial point that there's something of a taboo against really pushing the subject here and I thought Fran's post ironically exemplified that.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 17:44:00 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Knowledge' necessarily makes the mind look bad
Message:
The kind of meditation that concerns me, whether you call it 'Knowledge' or not, is the kind that's based on the premise that the mind is depriving us from a treasure within or is somehow harmful.

Hooray !! We agree - there is no doubt in my mind that any meditational activity that is based on this premise is twisted and undesirable.

However, there are some meditations that are based on the premise that the mind is a wonderful treasure-house, which the average human has hardly begun to explore.

-- Mike

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 20:57:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Really? Which ones?
Message:
However, there are some meditations that are based on the premise that the mind is a wonderful treasure-house, which the average human has hardly begun to explore.

That's news to me. Every meditation I ever heard of always seemed to scapegoat the mind one way or another. So which ones don't do that? Which ones actually celebrate the mind as you describe?

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:24:34 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Really? Which ones?
Message:
Every meditation I ever heard of always seemed to scapegoat the mind one way or another. So which ones don't do that? Which ones actually celebrate the mind as you describe?

The Buddhist meditations of South East Asia, called generally Vipassana meditation.

In even a casual read of any of the literature, it is clear that there are no divisions of soul, spirit, heart, this mind, that mind - but just 'mind' meaning consciousness in the widest sense of the word, from the minutiae of the most humdrum everyday task to the most ecstatic experience - no divisions at all, and very refreshing.

Theologians often define 'religion' to mean a belief in God. I define religion to mean a belief system which divides a human being's inner life into a duality such as you describe - good/bad, mind/heart, ego/spirit. Maybe this is what a belief in God entails - if you postulate a God, then there must be us worms of human beings.

But the Buddhist tradition I mention (sometimes called Theravada) has none of it - no religion, no God, no soul, no lower or higher - just consciousness or mind, and nothing else. As I say, refreshing and guilt-free !!

-- Mike

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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 02:49:18 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Bugger tradition! What about innovation???
Message:
The west has taken stuff from the east before and turned it into something new and often better - like kidgeree which is a humble rice and lentil dish from the south of India and which the Brits of the Raj enjoyed as a breakfast dish - only they added expensive imported smoked haddock from Scotland.

They combined a traditional British breakfast favorite, haddock poached with butter, and added it to the Tamil breakfast of curried lentils and rice. Needless to say, the Brits soon dropped the lentils as it gave the ladies gas which was excruciating under those corsets.

I'm convinced that I can play around and experiment with what I have learned from the east for my own amusement and education and perhaps come up with a very different kettle of fish than Rawat or any socalled eastern guru or yogi can.

I got out of my 30 years of meditation exactly what I put into it. Unfortunately Rawat had a bit too much input at one time luckily mostly in the first few years and after that I think most premies kind of winged it just as he was doing. And you got out of it whatever you discovered while winging it.

Rawat's enthusiasm in the early years was infectious but it gradually became obvious that HE was not really learning anything. A socalled teacher who never learns anything new themselves soon becomes obsolete and is doomed to repeat the same old stale lessons and to become corrupt and dishonest as well because of the deceit and pretense.

There are no rules for what you want to do in the privacy of your own mind unless it results in anti-social behavior. The problem with Maharajism is the religious rules and regulations based on the fact that the master is not be criticized. It's a stale old feudalistic Hindu peasant trip and stinks like ladus made from camel dung.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:45:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Nope, not that one. Try again?
Message:
Sorry, Mike, but Vipassana, at least as it's explained on the Vipassana website does indeed scapegoat the mind as the scoundrel that plagues us. Watch the video on that site, where they talk about trying to tame the wily, wild and uncontrolled mind. Once it starts to calm down, they say, the pratictioner begins to see how the mind was just wearing us out with all sorts of desires, attachments and passions we don't really want or need. No, when they talk about 'purifying' you know that the 'impurity' they're referring to is Mr. You-Know-Who.

So that one's out. Got any others?
[ What is Vipassana? ]

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 22:47:43 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, that one.
Message:
By evil chance, the Vipassana website you chose is Goenka's site, who is a mini guru - or probably not so mini in fact - and who is generally regarded as having hijacked the name 'Vipassana' and is giving it his own spin. Since he is setting himself up as a guru, then probably yes, he has to see things in terms of a scapegoat mind so he can save you from it.

So let me get real specific - the tradition of Vipassana that I now practice, and which is everything that my previous post said, is at this center - http://world.std.com/~cimc/ - an example from that site:

Insight Meditation--known as Vipassana in the Buddhist tradition...seeing life as a constantly changing process, one begins to accept pleasure and pain, fear and joy, and all aspects of life with increasing balance and equanimity. This balanced awareness, grounded in the present moment, leads to stillness and a growing understanding of the nature of life. Out of this seeing emerges wisdom and compassion.

An affiliate is this site: http://www.dharma.org/ims.htm and another affiliate of the same Vipassana tradition is http://www.maui.net/~metta/about_metta.html.

Since hundreds, if not thousands, are teaching various meditations that they call 'Vipassana' you can of course easily find examples to support your thesis that all meditations separate a human into a good part and a bad part, including Vipassana - if that is your thesis, which I don't know but I suspect it might be.

However, the Vipassana tradition that I now practice, and which is taught here in Massachusetts at Cambridge and Barre, and is sometimes called the 'Thai Forest tradition' is to see the mind, and everything that comes up in it, without judgement and without classification.

-- Mike

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 23:27:54 (EST)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Who said Buddha knew the score:)
Message:
?...If the geezer actually existed as he's portrayed:)

He's got something going for him ....he was around 2500 years ago....that impresses some people!! Plus he taught some unverifiable stuff and people were impressed and created a religious tradition out of it.

Seriously.....that site, Mike, is full of 'as we BECOMES' and as 'as we grow more in practise' .....always striving for that SOMETHING...even if it is classed as NOTHING.....or just unjudgemental awareness.

Religions with or without God always want us to 'learn' how to change from this to that. From the 'uncultivated' 'untrained mind' (which according to the intro of the site, ole Buddha says = MISERY, to the 'trained' 'cultivated' mind = .....then put in whatever you want....bliss, nirvana, more openess, more this more that.

Even if Buddha or whoever lived 50, 000 years ago or 100, 000 years ago ....big deal.

I wonder why I feel better without any dedicated practise of this, that or the other? I know I was born, I know I'm alive and I know I'll die. I also know I'm tired of 'experts' telling me how ,if I only changed from this to that then true insight would be revealed :)

Isn't being a totally insignificant, finite animal, on a backwater planet in a universe vast beyond comprehension, enough for people?...sheesh :)

All above, PARTIALLY tongue in cheek!!!!!

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:05:17 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Kill the Buddha
Message:
PARTIALLY tongue in cheek, Dermot? A very good cheek I would say. All of this stuff is just religion - meaning following some dead geezer. Even if I'm as dumb as a post, I prefer thinking for myself and, if I must resort to spiritual jargon, I'll say I don't want anyone laying out a path for me, thanks.

I'll machete my way out of the jungle on my own - except I don't see much of a jumgle. Are all these paths and religions simply based on superstitious fear of the unknown? I wish I did not have a conscience. You can make a good living soothing peoples' fears of the unknown with fairy tales.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 18:53:51 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Ditto!
Message:
Hooray, we agree.

As Pat C said the other day, at least something like this the other day -- I see all I can possibly perceive as mind, even what one might call intuition, soul, spirit, etc. Thoughts are just a part of it, and they are not bad either.

That very 'Eastern' idea that the mind is the problem is one that I heartily reject. So Jim, I think we agree on that one.

--F

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 19:34:45 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Talking behind my back?
Message:
Well, I don't need to add much for either you or Mike because you know how I think about his stuff via email.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 22:41:33 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: In front of your back, Pat...
Message:
Dear Pat,

Let me explain how I operate if you haven't already figured it out.

I like to be like a shock jock. I go to the extreme of my opinion to get reactions when I believe a topic is unresolved. Not just here, but in all of my personal relationships. I know you practice meditation techniques, but you are the most learned person here about this subject so when I posted I had you in mind.

Your absence in this thread was conspicuous and I expected that to be the case.

I had you in mind when I wrote in this thread because of one brilliant post that you made several months ago about the k techniques and their history, etc. and other traditions. I wish I had kept it because you gave a lengthy explanation about the matter. It cleared a lot in my mind about how the urug meditation was detrimental for reasons you outlined then you explained how other practices could be beneficial.

You and others here have found (other than K) meditation practices you have learned and incorporated into your lives. I find no fault with that.

My concern is about not causing further confusion in new exes who are posting here, as well as those who are reading. (I don't like the lurk word) So, in my own style I go to the extreme and wait for the response. It's just part of my makeup.

I've been communicating with some exes who are confused and exhausted, sad, afraid, and need assistance. Unfortunately, exit counselers cannot even be certified in this field. Uncharted territory. I worry about folks who may be reading and flapping out there in the wind in their confusion about what to do to get themselves back.

As I said to Francesca my post was not to criticize but to bring attention to an issue that I believe needs some consideration in order to help, the best way we can, those whose fragility is causing me concern.

That's all.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:20:38 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I turn my back for one second and....
Message:
I think you know that you don't have to explain yourself to me too much as your motives are clear and honorable.

I happen to think that part of getting out of the cult is seeing and entertaining diverse POVs, realizing that people disagree, thank goodness, and that no one can actually ever tell you what to think ever again.

Part of exing is not taking advice and standing on your own two feet and thinking for yourself. Those who read here have a wonderful opportunity to weigh different opinions which hopefully assist them in thinking for themselves and sticking up for themselves as it did for me.

Gaining independence of mind is the most important part for me. Aren't you glad we don't agree and actually thereby respect each other's strength even more.

I wish I could argue like Jim because I know that his confrontations force you to stick up for yourself, assert yourself and stop being passive. Thank god for Saint Jim the Watchdog for whom I have great pity as he has just as idiosyncratic a sense of humor as I have and is just as often or more often misunderstood.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 14:47:59 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's all well and said in theory
Message:
Jim. but the tone of the discussions is not always pretty. People resort to name calling, and derogatory remarks.

Your reasons are very sound for encouraging that kind of discussion. But I have seen posts which aim to pry people open like a fuckin can opener. People have a tremendous shock wave released in the 'snapping' process. There, is a lot of disorientation, and psychic tormoil that can go along with that process, especially if you had invested a lot of faith. Thus, one has suddenly and rudely experienced an incredible invalidation of their own existence. Extrapolate that for the decades that these 'faith affirming' experiences continued, and you have a recipe for a mental meltdown.

Funny thing about faith is it that it can reconfirm itself by the mere process of having faith. Like a form of positive awareness. The more you realize your worth and capabilities, the more you achieve. Faith in M & K as well as other belief systems capitalize on this. Most of the premies I knew constantly had reassuring experiences. It's mind blowing to wake up to that notion.

I went around exercising the same 'faith' even without my involvement in M and K. And believe it or not, the 'grace' came through for me as it always had when I was premie. For that reason, I didn't know where place my extended adolescent romp in the cult.

I really think there needs to be more sensitivity in these discussions. Especially because many non-exited premies are lurking.

You get through one layer, only to find yourself treading through another. And sometimes the 'old timers' come off a little too arrogant. The bottom line of where 'other' people are at, is opaque.

There is no 'cool way' to untangle thought reformation. The peer pressure to adjust right away is also a big drip I have with this forum. Fuck cool. We were in a cult. This should be a safe and encouraging place. It is and has been that, it has also been fuckin hell.

cheers,

deborah

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:37:45 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Wrong Wrong and Wrong
Message:
Deborah,
To be honest, no offense but I disagree with a lot of what you wrote.
As far as I'm concerned this doesn't have to be a 'safe and encouraging place'. It certainly can be that, and the epo forum is definitely better than any other current ex'ing 'tool' there is right now for healing, assuming that there even are other 'tools' out there.
This is a forum, an exchange of personalities and ideas. That to me should not be watered down due to the sensitivity and needs of a few fragile, hurting fence sitters or whatever.
Basically that's codependent, I'm not here to coddle and baby some fucked up gmj addicts. I'm here to discuss and deconstruct this hideous, stench ridden cult of the Rawats. Their cult makes me sick. I guess I consider this to be an advanced place for people who aren't still struggling or whatever. Those people should just stay on epo untill they are ready to truly analyze this shit with the gloves off, so to speak.
Grannies, stay out of the fast lane, OK or you could be hurt.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 22:11:41 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: Than say, disagree, disagree, disagree
Message:
Marshall,

I hope you weren't referring to me as a grannie who can't handle the fast lane. Because I eat information for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and in my sleep.

I was also not dissing the quality of the information. Nor do I want anyone to hold back on any of the topics, including Meditation.

My concern was directed at the individual who may be dealing and hence reeling in Maha toxic release and may have the energy (emotional or otherwise) to amputate the whole friggin elephant at one time.

There is a tremendous shock and disorientation which requires unspecific time. Nobody could possibly know how they are going to react to 'snapping'. It's not like we exit cults every year, and hence, have the hang of it by now. Also, the time frame is not the same for everyone. I feel that people should pace themselves in how much they let go. By no means, do I think people should down-play their opinions.

To me, I like to see people debate this, who have given the subject some thought. They are ready to wrestle with the finer points. My observation was, that some good people may feel bullied. Those people shouldn't have to avoid the forum all together. To me, that's a very big condition.

I was ready to post here when I did, and I learned from reading posts, and links, about brain chemistry. I wouldn't have liked to be put on the spot or defense about meditation, as it was painful enough to digest what I did. Just the thought of being duped so severely made me highly distressed and angry.

People like Jim are extremely well versed on the subject. As his friend Barry said, he gobbles up books like cheetos. He has also been into the subject for years now. Thus his advantage is tremendous. Compare this to someone else who has thought their meditation techniques were the alpha and omega to life itself, and the playing field is unleveled.

However, people who want and are ready to embrace that discussion, will set the tone, and create a stimulating environment for the lurkers, fence sitters, atheists, cult apologists (even though they don't admit it) etc.

Regardless, everything I've said is only my immediate opinion, and I don't want to argue it. I am not adamant about my point, I'm only hearing myself out. Perhaps tomorrow, I'll see it differently.

cheers,

deborah

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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 04:05:12 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Well said. Good writing. Thanks. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 15:49:59 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: No Marshall, just another tension
Message:
There is a tension between those who want to do it 'fast lane' or 'confrontational' style, and those who prefer a more moderate style, kind of like you would in a face-to-face conversation. I don't think either approach, or any approach for that matter, will prevail on this Forum. And of course, there's forms of expression in between those two polarities, as well.

There are many things you can say on this Forum -- where you are speaking to an audience, really -- that you may not say to someone's face or in a one-on-one conversation, depending upon who you were talking to, and the context of the conversation, of course.

And yes, there's different ideas as to what to tell our invisible audience of lurkers -- i.e. the never meditate (and there's a large range of things that could fall in that category), it's bad for your mental health v. the do K thing and just forget about M, and everything in between. And there's also different ideas as to the tone of this board. Everyone, in the end, will post what they wish.

Bests,

Francesca

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:41:21 (EST)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Re: No Rancesca, just another wrong ;)
Message:
Francesca,
I don't think you quite get what I was trying to say.

You said.
'There is a tension between those who want to do it 'fast lane' or 'confrontational' style, and those who prefer a more moderate style, kind of like you would in a face-to-face conversation'

My reply.
It doesn't matter what people want, I wasn't commenting on what people want, I was merely comparing this forum to a 'fast lane' on a freeway. That's my opinion, and it has nothing to do with what people 'want', need or expect from this forum, it is just an observation. The point I was making basically was move or get out of the way, this is a fast moving environment.

Then you say.
'There are many things you can say on this Forum -- where you are speaking to an audience, really -- that you may not say to someone's face or in a one-on-one conversation, depending upon who you were talking to, and the context of the conversation, of course.'

Once again I disagree. There is nothing I have ever said to anyone, ever on this forum, personally or as a group, that I wouldn't say to their face. Period.

Then you say.
' And yes, there's different ideas as to what to tell our '

I say back.
As I tried to make clear in my first post to you. I don't care what the 'invisible audience of lurkers' thinks about anything. If they are to gentle or sensitive or new-agey-feelgood, simplesimonzombies or whatever to appreciate uncensored, honest and sometimes disturbing frank talk, so to speak. Let alone exert a little effort and join into the discussion(especially if it bothers them). I have better things to do than as I said before coddle a bunch of babies.

Finally you say. 'Everyone, in the end, will post what they wish'.

I say. At last something we can both agree on!

Ciao, Marshall

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 14:34:11 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is debate about meditation frowned on here?
Message:
I didn't think debates on meditation were frowned on here, and we have had a few good debates recently. No, let's open up all the cans and see what worms wriggle out. But even after debating, there will still be disagreements, which of course is healthy amongst an intelligent bunch of people.

Cynthia certainly paints a dark picture about the dangers of continued meditation. I'm not convinced such a stark warning is justified in the age of knowledge-lite. Kicking the link to Maharaji might be enough to re-establish mental health. Of course, a healthy scepticism about the nature of the meditation experiences is essential in my view, but I'm not convinced continuing the meditate after ditching Maharaji is a bad thing. Whether it's a particulaly good thing is of course also open to question.

John.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 19:36:36 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks, John. You summed it up for me. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 10:16:52 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Makes strong the thing that keeps you weak
Message:
Great posts, you guys. I have nothing 'scientific' to add to your comments, but I do remember this: When I was majorly confused (almost catatonic) about Maharaji just after I had 'snapped,' a friend suggested to me that I stop meditating for a while because 'it makes strong the thing that keeps you weak.' That remark was like a hot knife through butter and made a lot of sense, so I tried it.

It's weird how one sentence can change a life. I had snapped out of guru-land, but was caught between worlds, and when my friend said that to me, I snapped into a different world, the world of a 'free' mind.

When one door shuts, another one opens. (But the hallway sure is dark ) . +)

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 06:03:24 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Great Post .. and re: meditation
Message:
Looking at it now, I am completely fascinated as a psychological picture of the combined effects of practice and devotion emerge into the light.

What REALLY excites me - is that for 20 years, I ENJOYED the experience, without ever ONCE being encouraged or empowered to STUDY it - not just in terms of science, but in any terms which placed the experiences of Knowledge and Darshan in a Context... other than the context of BELIEF in Grace.

What hits me know is that all the talk about 'suck it and see' and 'test Knowledge for yourself/give it your best shot' etc etc which on the surface (to premies) seems to negate any need for FAITH - But actually the faith element is providing an unspoken context for it all.

Which is why, in his talks, he quite often talks about being 'open' or 'ready' - and that the aspirant process is NOT one of answering or encouraging questions and genuine interest in the science and art of devotional meditation.. but of the 'willing suspension of dis-belief'

This is why he cannot bear to be called a GURU or for Knowledge to be a MEDITATION - becuase his entire frame of reference is dependant upon US having NO FRAME OF REFERENCE except HIS.

ONLY (God I love these CAPS !!) when his frame of reference has been accepted, will the unspoken assumtions of Knowledge bear fruit.. such as gratitude and bliss - but without the assumptions the 'question maker' will get in the way.

It is the need for faith and belief and assumptions that make the Question making MIND an enemy. To gently lead people toward a subjective and feeling realm is one thing.. but to discourage them from analysis leaves them as dependant consumers of a product which only you can provide.

Its so interesting to still have knowledge, to still have bliss and gratitude... to still have feelings, but to be able to bring the entire personality and talents and mind and interest to bear in analysing the mechanics of a Guru... and of meditational conciousness itself.

Brilliant ! its like a whole new ball game !!

metal guru.. is it you ?

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 04:02:45 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Blissing Out now on EPO for keep
Message:
and don't miss the links .....
[ Blissing Out in Houston ]
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 03:05:39 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Rowing with one oar is more like it...
Message:
I just got around to taking a quick read-through of the article, but the following segment sucker punched me as I did an ocular drive by:

3 PM: I talk to Gary Girard, who was the very first American to receive Knowledge and has been personal secretary to the Guru. He tells me that he first went to India in '68, when he was selling macramé belts on street corners and shooting dope all over Australia and the Far East. His father is a well-to-do California businessman, and Gary started the Asian dope circuit right after high school. Gary has a grandiose vision of the impact Maharaj Ji is already having on the world: 'I assure you that the President of the United States is on top of everything the Guru is doing. I'm convinced that the President of the United States just loves this because he simply can't deny the humanitarian work Maharaj Ji is doing.'

'Do you consider Nixon a humanitarian President?'

'Nixon has served the people well,' Gary answers. 'He only does what he can do. It's not his fault that he has a mind which doesn't function properly.'

Excellent, Gary. I guess Gary wasn't reading many newspapers at the time, but he did get the part about Nixon's mind right.

'Why are there so few black premies in the United States?'

'Black people are not interested in Maharaj Ji because they're not interested enough in themselves.'

Excuse my inelegance, but that's fucked up. Big time. Royally. Maybe the problem wasn't that black people weren't interested enough in themselves, but that Gary was too interested in himself. Christ, where was Gary in the mid-60s? Oh, yeah, on the Asian drug circuit.

'What is your notion of equality?'

'Equality is not how much you have but same-sightedness, unity of vision, which is what we have.'

Sounds to me like the definition of 1) a cult, 2) Hitler Youth, and/or 3) a control freak.

I can't believe I was involved in that, and so wholeheartedly to boot.

And Joan Apter's letter to the editor reads like a robot wrote it which, come to think of it, is probably correct.

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 19:16:31 (EST)
From: boogermansanfrancisco
Email: None
To: All
Subject: i think Prem loves ex-premies
Message:
because they are not afraid of him. wouldn't the Master get sick of all the phoney devotion after 30 years.
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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:47:11 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: boogermansanfrancisco
Subject: Well, JimBo, even if no-one agrees with you....
Message:
....at least you know you can say whatever you like here without any cult church-ladies telling you that Mwaji wouldn't like that. In fact I hope you do say whatever you feel since you are Mwaji's worst nightmare - a premie who has not taken the KITS training and does not toe the party line. And that' snot a joke, Booger:C)
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 13:36:33 (EST)
From: Guru Masarati
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Money
Message:
MONEY

It can buy a House..............But not a Home
It can buy a Bed................But not Sleep
It can buy a Clock..............But not Time
It can buy you a Book...........But not Knowledge
It can buy you a Position.......But not Respect
It can buy you Medicine.........But not Health
It can buy you Blood............But not Life
It can buy you Sex..............But not Love

So you see Money isn't Everything.
And it often causes Pain and Suffering.

I tell you this because...
I am your Friend, and
As your Friend,
I want to take away
Your Pain and Suffering.

So send me all your Money,
And I will Suffer for you.


---

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---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---

---
--

Hi, everybody, this is Gina.
I received this as an email forward and sent it to Janet because it reminded me of her post the other day in the "Videos Only" thread, the one in which she did an absolutely brilliant, perfect sendup of Goober Gee as a televangelist. She suggested that I post it here for y'all. Hilarious sendup, Jai, I'm still laughing!

Cheers to all,
Gina

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 09:50:44 (EST)
From: First nomination
Email: None
To: All
Subject: for 2002 Maharaji of Malibu Award
Message:
clearly, it must be the Enron executives

for showing callous disregard for the emotional and financial needs of their employees; a long ways to go but these guys are the early leaders

The trophy is a malibu maha bobble head mounted on a serpent

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 11:28:05 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: First nomination
Subject: With a plaque Inscribed...
Message:
with the following on a faux gold toilet on the seat:

''NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE,
I HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF THAT''

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 00:00:30 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Toooo funny! I love it!
Message:

[ http://66.37.7.139/plus/plus.mirage?who=anythinggoes&id=12351.895869545202 ]
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 01:41:55 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: I think you're fucked up, Bar
Message:
Seriously, most people don't hang out where they're bored silly. Why don't you do the same? I mean, really, dude, if you keep hanging out around here when you can't stand the place that makes you a bit of a jerk.

Doesn't it?

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 12:42:45 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry Chill!
Message:
I only made a complaint that AG was boreing. It was Catweasel that wrote back the post that I linked here. Just thought everyone would get a laugh out of it. Be cool man.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 15:47:36 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Barry, fuck off
Message:
Who gives a shit what you think of AG? If you don't like it, stay the fuck away from it. To be honest, I find Catweasel's comments about AG, or any other forum dealing with premies and exes much more tolerable than anything you've got to say. At least he's a premie. Who the fuck are you? You never were a premie to begin with. And fuck you, telling me to chill. You're the one who needs to chill out, Barry.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 18:51:33 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Your just way to serious man!
Message:
NT!
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 19:16:06 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Don't fuck with a serious man, Bar
Message:
You might be right about that, Bar. You're not the first person who's told me that. But if that's so, I is what I is. Right? I still think it's uncool to rain on other people's parade which is basically what I'm raving about.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 20:18:57 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Check post at Satshitbathroom!
Message:
It's cool!
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 04:30:20 (EST)
From: Catwoman's love child;)
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: I think you're fucked up, Bar
Message:
No,it makes him a damn sight more intelligent thasn the rest of you who still havent learn't to scream -

THE EMPORER HAS NO CLOTHES!!!;)

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 11:51:31 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Catwoman's love child;)
Subject: Re: I think YOU'RE fucked up, Love Child
Message:
What the fuck are you talking about? Barry never even was a premie. What would he know about the emperor, eh? He's just got a lot to say about his former subjects. Fuck him (Barry) is what I say. Who invited him to the party, anyway?
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 15:58:59 (EST)
From: Oooh Aaaah,Miaow
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: I think YOU'RE fucked up, Love Child
Message:
Forget about M.The new clothes here is the smug acceptance of total banality.Being a free spirit,the boy simply calls it as it is.
Trouble with you lot is that you are still devotees.In a totally negative fashion.But devotees you are...
And an outsider can see the truth of the place.A very boring introspective backwater....
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 09:13:23 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Oooh Aaaah,Miaow
Subject: Wrong, Cat
Message:
CatShitHeadan outsider can see the truth of the place.A very boring introspective backwater....

Hah! You are just a deluded cult victim, and rather a nasty one at that. NOT an outsider at all.

Unlike me, of course. So let me assure you that it's very interesting here, just to see the layers of maya peeled away from exiting cult-member after exiting cult-member.

Cowardly cats like you who dare not examine their own beliefs lower the tone. But that's allyou can do, eh, Cat?

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 17:15:06 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Oooh Aaaah,Miaow
Subject: Re: I think YOU'RE fucked up, Love Child
Message:
And an outsider can see the truth of the place.A very boring introspective backwater....It's just a matter of perspective if you ask me. One man's poison is another man's... whatever. Can't remember exactly how that goes. Anyway, the bottom line about F7 is that the purpose of this place is to help people who have genuine issues that need to be resolved. Any outsider who feels a need to criticize that is a jerk as far as I'm concerned. AG is different, I suppose, but it's still a forum setup by exes primarilly FOR exes. If you're not part of that crew, you should mind your manners as a guest. Fuck this bullshit about being a free spirit. I'm one too. I just know what's tactful and what isn't. Barry doesn't.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 17:17:06 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Screwed up the text
Message:
I didn't format the text in the previous post right. But you know what's your's and what's mine. Don't you, kitty?

Meooowww!

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 00:18:55 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Oh by the way!
Message:
Deborah and I are getting married!
Yes everyone it's true. I proposed over a great meal at A&W, on a quick bissiness trip back to Victoria, and as I hoped, she said yes!!
The cerimony will be held at the Red Barn Eatery and Exotic Dance Palace, located in between the Pat Bay Highway and Beaver Lake.
All the x's are invited of course, accept Pat Conlon and Moldy (All four walls will have hardcore porn running on them via projector), so you know? There will be hot dogs and tang (BYOB) of course. X flies will be there to bring in are vows with their sweet rocken sound, and last but not least, (i can't recall his name) but the guy who played Thirston Howl on Gilligan's island will be the M.C.
So come on out and cellabrate our love with us! It's the party of the year!

Thanks
Barry.
[ Graphic Link ]

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 00:41:52 (EST)
From: Miaow?
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Re: Oh by the way!
Message:
Oh Barry that is SOOOO beautiful! And dont you make such a gorgeous couple! Oh mummy me I just KNEW that it was true...
PS.I think you are being a bit touchy about PatC and Moley..What a wonderful couple for Matron of Honour and Best Man!
But which is which?????
And there's your good friend Jimbo The MC?,the Rev?
What about your honeymoon?Saskatchawen?
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 12:36:14 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Miaow?
Subject: Nope! Surrey Mall!(nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 00:44:11 (EST)
From: Troll Alert
Email: None
To: Miaow?
Subject: It's the Cat. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 05:01:31 (EST)
From: Purr.........Miaow
Email: None
To: Troll Alert
Subject: Re: It's the Cat.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 04:48:45 (EST)
From: The Hound
Email: None
To: Purr.........Miaow
Subject: Re: It's the Cat.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 00:35:37 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Er...Ummm...Barry...
Message:
I really hate to break this to you but Thurston Howl, Jim Backus, is Dead.

My favority XMass cartoon, Mr. Magoo in the Christmas Carol was the voice of Jim Backus. Mr. Magoo played Scrooge, of course.

Best wishes on your engagement!

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 12:38:53 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: LOL LOL LOL LOL!
Message:
Shit that was funny..I cracked up! Thanks, guess we better book someone else! LOL funny shit, thanks.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 05:01:57 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Er...Ummm...Barry...
Message:
For one minute there I thought I clicked the wrong bookmark and had ended up on Anything Goes.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 12:40:15 (EST)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Don't start that crap again Pat.
Message:
Don't worry I'm not staying here long.
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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 19:01:24 (EST)
From: web2002
Email: webfebuary2002@webtv.net
To: All
Subject: effort need with b-day info?
Message:
even though i recieved knowledge @ the begining of 1974 only one of mahara ji's childrens' b-day prem lata 1975 is known. can anyone assist with the approximate b-days of hans, dialata, & amar? watching the forumns from time to time i notice many people including close devotees & initiators have concepts and miss the cultural limitations on which dlm was initiated. even though as discussed g. mahara ji's flaws or mistakes need improvement shri mahara ji is @ present a safe harbor in storm conditions. i don't always agree with g. mahara ji's plans of spending but do enjoy the fact he has reserved a place for his devotees including australia even though he could never really completely apreciate all his many devotee.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 15:41:00 (EST)
From: web2002
Email: webfebuary2002@webtv.net
To: web2002
Subject: Re: effort need with b-day info?
Message:
this timely information has genuinely wetted my objective but not totally fulfilled my quest as i have only vague or partial idea concerning holy family ages or year of birth. pertinent info would be for hans, dilata, amar, & ashlata. recognize, reflect, absorb kindly shri g. mahara ji has extended valuable seed and should lotus seed be accepted, nurtured, & treasured via sharing, selfless painfree propogation?
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 09:52:55 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: web2002
Subject: We did that in the early seventies
Message:
That is, selfless propogation, although it wasn't always pain free.

The circle keeps repeating although it gets smaller every time.

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 22:56:06 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: web2002
Subject: Soo Glad you explained
Message:
It is all very clear now.

What at first was only a vague suspicion.. is now confirmed.

Thanks.

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 16:09:29 (EST)
From: web2002
Email: webfebuary2002@webtv.net
To: web2002
Subject: Re: effort need with b-day info?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 21:16:24 (EST)
From: Celebrity B'Day File
Email: None
To: web2002
Subject: Dear jbsf.....
Message:
In response to your rather confused post.
Here are some B'day details.

January 27 Claudia's Birthday( Now abandoned don't know Natalie's Birthday or whoever is Raja Ji's latest Girlfriend)
March 9 Premlata's (Wadi)Bday
May 20 M&M's Wedding Anniversary
June 5 Navlata's Birthday (M's Lovechild?)
June 26 Dayalata's Bday
September 9 Raj Ji's Bday ( mmmm run out of Lamborghini types to buy)
September 17 Hans Pal's (Hansi)_Birthday
October 25 Durga Ji's Birthday
December 10 You Know Who's Incarnation Day
December 25? Amar's Birthday (Maybe the Second coming!!)

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 21:56:14 (EST)
From: Moll of Mole
Email: None
To: Celebrity B'Day File
Subject: other dates
Message:
Amar is the 25th Dec and Ashlata is Feb 1st(RJ's other child)
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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 21:29:34 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Celebrity B'Day File
Subject: You forgot the Big B-day...
Message:
Hans Jayanti, Shri Hans, November 9.

Oh god, I've got to get off this computer.

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 03:32:17 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: June 16th 1962 [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 19:39:44 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: web2002
Subject: Interesting
Message:
Interesting that you consider Maharaji to be a ''safe harbour''.

If you became ill and couldn't work or produce an income, nor could you travel to see Maharaji because of health or money problems; if the tide turned against you and you became more and more poverty stricken and your home was repossessed - just how would he be any sort of safe harbour then?

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 19:24:42 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: web2002
Subject: Ask Maharaji...good luck... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 18:17:15 (EST)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: All
Subject: AMP
Message:
Hi Everyone,
Down below I read a thread from Richard re; AMP
Aircraft Modular Products.
The company which was formed after the 707 debacle.

He stated that it was eventually sold for approx $250 million US dollars.

In Australia during this time, there was something called the Active Membership Program.
This was presented as a direct way to support His Mission.
Payments were to be made out to AMP or the form filled out to allow wages to be garnisheed directly.

Could this have been a fraudulent way to contribute money to this Company?

I know a LOT of money was procured through this Program which lasted for many years.

Again much love to everyone I am reading you all everyday and slowly proceeding through this traumatic exiting revelation.

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 18:52:09 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: To Bai Ji
Message:
Dear Bai Ji,

Thank you for that information.

The most important thing for you right now is to take care of yourself. You are the most important person in your life. Love yourself, try.

I don't know who you are but I suspect you were close to M.

Pamper yourself, love yourself, do whatever you can think of to make yourself feel comfortable during this difficult time. I hear you. If you can, rest as much as possible.

If you every want to talk privately, feel free to email me at:

sylviecyn@yahoo.com -- always confidential.

Be easy on yourself, you've been through so much.
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 19:52:09 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Not the same AMP
Message:
Bai Ji,

AMP, the aircraft seating company was not the same as your Active Membership Program. AMP, the for-profit Miami company was legally incorporated with many premies as officers. DECA was essentially rescued from ruin and converted to AMP by CEO Roger Koch and other premies' hard work.

BTW: I said the sale was for over $250 million but it may have been around $150 million. Not peanuts either way but don't want to spread inaccurate information.

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 05:39:25 (EST)
From: Opie
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: AMP sold in 1998 for $118 million
Message:
Richard

Seems like AMP was recently sold to B/E Aerospace, Inc. for $118 million. AMP is decribed as 'WORLD'S LEADING MANUFACTURER OF
BUSINESS JET INTERIOR PRODUCTS'.

See following link which confirms this is the same AMP as Koch is mentioned.

OP

http://www.visionaire.com/nwsevnts/newsrls/pr981019a.html
[ AMP 1998 sale ]

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 12:45:54 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Opie
Subject: Thanks for correction OP
Message:
Thanks for correcting my mistaken info on sale price.

Also, I don't think there would be any sensible reason to have the Active Membership Program linked to Aircraft Modular Products. It's possible that some of the premies involved donated to M but it's highly unlikely it was a fundraising scam. M reportedly was a stockholder and got part of the windfall when it sold. But I caution against assuming this was in any way a fraudulent corporation.

FYI: The discussion about DECA started below in Susan's Holi thread.

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 08:52:52 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Opie
Subject: Bai Ji has a point
Message:
There was an AMP contribution set up in the US at the same time. I find this a little too coincidental. Funds could be run into this airplane company from fake customers. The problem with Maharaji is that anything is possible. Unless you were involved in the inner finance at the Aircraft Modular Products company, how could you honestly know this wasn't a possibility? Two major 'AMP's' is too close for comfort.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 16:30:39 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Of course, that was her point
Message:
Gee Vicky,

I was wondering when someone was going to say that.

She was not confused that there were two AMPs. Bai ji clearly acknowledged the different businesses but discerned the possiblilty that the identical ancronyms could have had an ulterior motive.

Surprised nobody perceived that!

cheers,

deborah

Bai Ji, I sure do like people who think outside the box. Spot on!

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 10:38:58 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Bai Ji has a point
Message:
I can't find the rest of the AMP stuff, or is this the only thread that contains it?

I too remember AMP meaning Active Membership Programme. It must have been worldwide, because I remember donating to it by direct debit as a percentage of my wages all through 1976. I donated in good faith, thinking the money was going directly towards M's work. It would be very interesting if it turned out that AMP was actually something else altogether and we were all contributing to it in all innocence.

However, we probably shouldn't all jump to conclusions and it's probably just a coincidence...........??

with love, Livia

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 11:34:11 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: When was AMP, the company started...
Message:
...wasn't it after DECA, 1980-81?

I don't know

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 10:53:46 (EST)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: On the point of donating
Message:
Although I had given plenty of cash donations out of my pocket in the early days in the UK, when all this 'monthly contribution' stuff started happening I was having a hard time financially. When I got right side up I managed to donate a small monthly contribution to AMP. About a year later there was some problem and I vaguely remember an Elan Vital/DLM person telling me that 'I had been donating money to a dead bank account' - i.e. they had defaulted on it and the bank had frozen it. After that I never subscribed to any of those programs.
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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 11:07:08 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: oh, wonderful......not. [nt]
Message:
Oh, wonderful........not.
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