Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Feb 09, 2002 To: Feb 19, 2002 Page: 3 of: 5


Deborah -:- Valentine's Card for YOU atheists -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:11:38 (EST)
__ cq -:- this one tickled me ... -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 08:11:34 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- I liked that one too -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 18:24:01 (EST)
__ Cupid is stupid -:- Re: Valentine's Card for YOU atheists -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:13:58 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- What a coincidence! -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:17:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Oh my gawd, Jim -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:24:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Babbs -:- Re: Oh my gawd, Jim -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 22:47:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ TROLL ALERT -:- Something smells....nt -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:56:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sure does Tonnette -:- Re: Something smells.... -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 00:48:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Something smells.... -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 22:55:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- It's USELESS, Premie Ji -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 05:14:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Who are you to tell me to leave? -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:14:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Who are you to tell me to leave? -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 05:14:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Misogynous Creep Troll -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 07:27:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Deborah... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:30:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- P.S. Deborah... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:45:49 (EST)

Jim -:- Get me to Mecca on time -- or else!! OT -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:33:10 (EST)

Steve Mueller: Unconditional Love -:- Learned from Kittyji and Poochieji -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 13:53:11 (EST)
__ bill -:- Teef -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 03:37:41 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Hi Bill -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 11:06:11 (EST)
__ __ __ bill- -:- Is he worth touching? -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 16:01:54 (EST)
__ Loaf -:- is there anything which is NOT Conditional ??? -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 09:03:10 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Yes but I have to forewarn you that... -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 19:33:08 (EST)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Be careful steve -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 02:30:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Not to worry, Loaf -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 11:01:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- This is a joke, right? -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 20:07:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- No, I'm not joking. -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 23:33:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- How exactly did you study astrology? -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 00:41:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Scientifically-same way I study anything -:- Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 23:50:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, that's NOT like a science -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 11:49:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim's nemesis -:- You're entitled to your opinion. -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:33:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Just what I need -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:51:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- What if astrology is a hobby?? -:- Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:39:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Dammit, you mean Rawat's not irresponsible -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 01:05:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yep and furthemore -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 01:18:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks for link, Jim -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 01:40:54 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Great post, Loaf! -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 13:06:56 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Anthropomorphizing -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 14:41:14 (EST)
__ __ Steve Mueller: Anthropopathism -:- would be closer but it too falls short -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:52:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- With all due respect, Steve -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 13:25:56 (EST)
__ __ __ McDuck -:- Steve, where do you get the idea -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 00:47:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- It's not my idea. Old as the ages. -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 07:15:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Old as the ages? -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 15:01:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Yeah, so what. -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 19:49:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wow! Wha an open-minded guy! -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 20:05:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- You're really gonna love this. -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 23:37:31 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- And Jim, you need to read 'Snapping'... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 15:53:47 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- I tried to read it but just couldn't -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:12:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- You can get it... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:59:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- books suck -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 19:47:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- GErRy.... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:11:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ OTS -:- Re: Reading -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 12:16:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Reading (OT) -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 13:16:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gina -:- Re: Reading (OT) -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 15:41:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Gina: Reading (OT) -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 18:14:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gina -:- To Cynthia: Reading. Thanks! (OT) -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 21:48:28 (EST)

Lil Darlin -:- What Could Have Been -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:33:06 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Brava, Lil Darlin -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 13:47:36 (EST)

Steve Mueller -:- Lancing the M-cult boil -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 07:02:27 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Re: Lancing the M-cult boil -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:27:35 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Why, was your fridge in a cult? [nt] -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:10:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- No, Jim must be on a diet... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:54:09 (EST)
__ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: No, Jim must be on a diet... -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 00:00:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- And what's funny about that -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 00:03:28 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Cute, Jim... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 15:39:11 (EST)
__ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Speediest route to healing -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 22:56:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Of course, Steve... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:32:40 (EST)

The Maharaji of Malibu -:- IMO appears to be one sick puppy ji -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 06:26:10 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Maharaji may be sick... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:28:54 (EST)
__ __ Livia -:- Re: Maharaji may be sick... -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 15:03:00 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Maharaji may be sick... -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 15:46:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Livia -:- Re: Maharaji may be sick... -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 17:59:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Livia... -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 13:27:54 (EST)
__ __ Loaf -:- FAB Post Cynthia -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:30:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Loaf... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 18:35:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ OTS -:- Kids -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 12:30:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatD -:- Re: Kids -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 19:35:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Kids -:- Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 01:42:07 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Some observations -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:04:47 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Who wouldn't want to drink in those shoes? -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:46:20 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- A belligerent drunk, sounds like... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 18:08:29 (EST)

Cynthia -:- Virus Attack/Alert! -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 17:10:56 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Free and Easy Virus Checking -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 17:56:17 (EST)
__ __ bill -:- archives are inacessable [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 23:00:16 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- I know, but it's sunny today -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:31:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Rupee Murdoch -:- JHB-are $ figures available -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 09:06:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Yes, but why do you want them? -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 11:56:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Opie -:- Impeccable logic ... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:13:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- OK, I'd like to donate -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:48:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- For UK residents + PayPal security -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 14:02:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rupee again -:- Just looking for a ballpark figure... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 15:34:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Email me -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:15:33 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- I noticed that as well (OT) (OT) -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 00:49:45 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Free and Easy Virus Checking -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 18:29:26 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Worry but don't worry -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 19:54:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Small Correction -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:18:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Worry but don't worry -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 01:21:59 (EST)

Mike Finch -:- Michael Dettmers Interview -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 16:37:49 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- On EPO now -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 10:08:02 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Linked from Home Page now -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:09:28 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Thanks for that, whoever you are [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 22:46:53 (EST)
__ bill -:- wow, Thanks Michael Dettmers [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 21:41:08 (EST)
__ PatD -:- Re: Michael Dettmers Interview -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 20:33:23 (EST)
__ Joe -:- John, ***BEST** of course? -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 19:23:10 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Thanks Mike F and Michael D. Rivetting! -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 17:24:10 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Thanks Mike F and Michael D. Rivetting! -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 18:30:49 (EST)

Vicki -:- Calling Kelly -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 16:20:46 (EST)
__ Kelly -:- Re: Calling Kelly -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 10:44:58 (EST)
__ __ Kelly -:- P.S. -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 17:40:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: P.S. -:- Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 09:46:42 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- EV's Statistics on EPO -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 12:53:33 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Moved the new page, and comments -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:55:03 (EST)

JHB -:- New White Pages Entries -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 12:10:08 (EST)
__ David Simpkiss -:- Re: New White Pages Entries -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 13:49:37 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- To Nottm Bunny & anyone else -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 07:10:58 (EST)
__ Nottm Bunny -:- To Dave -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 07:41:00 (EST)

Jethro -:- Article on the Krsnas -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 04:45:51 (EST)
__ janet -:- notice how at least.... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 02:54:14 (EST)
__ Pullaver -:- Re: Article on the Krsnas -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 09:21:01 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- If it all goes pear-shaped again -:- Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 20:59:42 (EST)
__ Deborah -:- Thanks Dave -:- Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 21:24:17 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- Seconded. All eggs in one Hotboards basket ... -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 15:45:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- ha ha...cute pun cq [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 17:45:06 (EST)

health fan -:- Consumer Health Article -:- Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 20:52:04 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Consumer Health Article -:- Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 21:24:11 (EST)
__ __ health fan -:- yea, sorry about the double up! -:- Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 22:33:09 (EST)

Joe -:- Qs re M, Sat Pal and Mata Ji -:- Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 20:49:25 (EST)
__ Opie -:- DOD Nov 25th, 1991 -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 07:41:10 (EST)
__ __ Barf Special -:- I can't believe I kissed her foot -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 07:49:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Suzanne -:- Was she dead at the time?(nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 21:13:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- I can't believe you asked that? }) [nt] -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 21:23:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Joy -:- Well, at least she got this right . . . -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 19:39:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Lance Boyle -:- Is that the Boil..... -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 10:47:34 (EST)
__ cq -:- on the subject of the court case: -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 07:09:25 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- What I heard -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 16:24:43 (EST)
__ __ Jethro -:- Here's what I was told -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 10:24:02 (EST)
__ __ __ janet -:- the judge wins -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:43:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Ed -:- I was told that...... -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 15:56:02 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- Re: Here's what I was told -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 15:49:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ ChrisP -:- Re: Here's what I was told -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 16:01:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ ChrisP -:- make that: here's what I was NOT told (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 16:02:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- That's hilarious Jethro [nt] -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 15:45:52 (EST)
__ Francesca -:- program in SF in about 1986 -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 01:28:30 (EST)
__ Mike Finch -:- Re: Qs re M, Sat Pal and Mata Ji -:- Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 23:23:08 (EST)
__ __ janet -:- Re: Qs re M, Sat Pal and Mata Ji -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:59:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Wow Janet! sometimes you nail it -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:11:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Bread and Butter -:- RJ leave style he's become accustomed?nt -:- Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 09:38:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- RJ: another one on the cult family dole [nt] -:- Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 16:11:30 (EST)
__ __ A Friend -:- Re: Qs re M, Sat Pal and Mata Ji -:- Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 13:59:57 (EST)


Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:11:38 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Valentine's Card for YOU atheists
Message:
See Cupid is stupid post
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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 08:11:34 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: this one tickled me ...
Message:

[ Graphic Link ]
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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 18:24:01 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I liked that one too
Message:
I was going to put that one up, myself. Did you enjoy that site. Lots of fabulous cartoons.

cheers,

deborah, who's not really here today cuz she's studying for mid-terms

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:13:58 (EST)
From: Cupid is stupid
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Valentine's Card for YOU atheists
Message:

[ Graphic Link ]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:17:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cupid is stupid
Subject: What a coincidence!
Message:
Check out my own 'Valentine's Day' post (If M and Satpal loved the same woman?) above.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:24:34 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh my gawd, Jim
Message:
Is that friggin hilarious? Shit! Talk about being on the same brain wave ;) Is that acceptable Jim, or is it a new-ageism.

p.s. Go see my Valentine's Day card at LG

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 22:47:09 (EST)
From: Babbs
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Oh my gawd, Jim
Message:
Ugly cult troll attack deleted by FA
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:56:35 (EST)
From: TROLL ALERT
Email: None
To: Babbs
Subject: Something smells....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 00:48:03 (EST)
From: sure does Tonnette
Email: None
To: TROLL ALERT
Subject: Re: Something smells....
Message:
More ugly hate-filled cult troll rubbish deleted by FA.
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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 22:55:26 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: sure does Tonnette
Subject: Re: Something smells....
Message:
Above hate-filled cult troll rubbish deleted by FA.
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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 05:14:29 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: sure does Tonnette
Subject: It's USELESS, Premie Ji
Message:

    Useless!


    Maharaji is quite useless and uncouth
    Says it's wrong to feel, wrong to trust your heart,
    Wrong to think; you just follow his untruth
    Where bondage of illusion is the art.

    His teachings are deceitful, he's a cad,
    Quite the worst guru I've never had.
    He said he'd show us God, but God! he's sad,
    His whole life just a lie; false; rotten; bad.

    He said he's God. I say he is a lie,
    A wealthy no-one poncing off conned folks.
    He cannot tell the truth, nor meet your eye,
    Nor write a decent poem, nor laugh at jokes.

    Prempal Rawat you horrid little man,
    Your game is up, you're headed for the can.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:14:09 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Babbs
Subject: Who are you to tell me to leave?
Message:
Must be from someone who is a very well balanced person who has lots of lovers and deserves to stay with their outstanding beauty.

Here's a kind and warm and fuzzy FUCK YOU

If you are not Babbs, it was in extremely poor taste of you to pretend to be someone who has shown themself to be a beautiful sophisticated person.

Whereas you are clearly a very UGLY person INSIDE to say that.

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 05:14:38 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Who are you to tell me to leave?
Message:
Obviously this cult troll has no right whatsoever to tell you or anyone else what to do.

Please forgive me if I don't delete this piece of crap because I would like others to see to what extent cult rolls will stoop. Take note of the browser type and see that it has been anonymized and also that it is Unix which is pretty much a corporate thing. Hmmm???

Deborah, even if I don't agree with you on everything, I do agree that this troll needs to be told a ''kind and warm and fuzzy FUCK YOU.''

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 07:27:55 (EST)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Misogynous Creep Troll
Message:
This particular Troll targets women. He reminds me of the equally hateful X, a mysogynous creep who clowned around here a while ago.

What kind of premie has nothing positive to share about his Master, but offers only foul imprecations against women with knowledge?

A twisted little shit of a man, perhaps?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:30:54 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Deborah...
Message:
You have a right to be here. It may be a troll, I don't know.

Roll with the punches....you have every right to be here.

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:45:49 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: P.S. Deborah...
Message:
Daunt vurry about it!

Let's talk soon by email. I email you.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:33:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Get me to Mecca on time -- or else!! OT
Message:
Afghan pilgrims kill transport minister-TV

DUBAI (Reuters) - Afghan Muslim pilgrims, angry over plane delays, have attacked and killed Afghanistan's interim transport minister at Kabul airport, Arabic-language al-Jazeera television has reported.

It quoted its reporter in the Afghan capital as saying Air Transport and Tourism Minister Abdul Rahman had gone to the airport to leave on a trip abroad when he was attacked on Thursday by a large number of disgruntled pilgrims awaiting flights to Saudi Arabia.

There was no immediate confirmation of the report by Afghan officials. Foreign journalists were unable to go to the airport to check on reports of a disturbance there because of a curfew.

More than 5,000 Afghans planning to leave for the annual haj pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia have been told that foreign aircraft are being leased for the trip as Afghanistan's Ariana airline has only one functioning plane, Afghan-based reporters said.

Saudi officials have said pilgrims coming from abroad must arrive by Sunday to be able to perform haj, one of Islam's five pillars.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 13:53:11 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller: Unconditional Love
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: All
Subject: Learned from Kittyji and Poochieji
Message:
Someone recently raised the question: what did I mean by unconditional love. I didn't respond at the time. I think I've been hesitating to answer until now because, for me, unconditional love is such an intensely personal and subjective thing, a feeling I feel within myself, that it is pretty much impossible to explain. The kind of feeling I'm referring to can't be talked about easily, if at all. I think a person either feels it or they don't. Why do some feel it and others don't? I don't know, I guess maybe it's like many human experiences: you either feel it or you don't. Those that don't feel it will likely not understand it with their intellect because, to me, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with intellect. It has to do with feeling and feeling alone. Feeling is feeling. How can one who doesn't feel it feel it? The best I can come up with is by suspending all thoughts, becoming extremely simple, and by opening up their hearts really really really really wide.

My wife and I have the cutest little calico cat, Muffin, and an equally darling, affectionate shitsu dog, Misty. They are so spoiled rotten with love from Blanche and especially from me that they seldom bother each other. I spend lots of time studying them, trying to understand how they can be so content just to BE. Not to be doing anything in particular. Just to BE. To sit or lie quietly at rest. Completely content. At peace with themselves. For hours on end. It may sound boring to some but seeing them lying so still and so peaceful is fascinating to me. To me, the energy that is sustaining them, that is allowing them to just BE, allowing them to enjoy simple peace and contentment IS unconditional love. It requires nothing from them. Nothing. It just makes it possible for them to be simple, to be happy, to be in a physical setting where they are loved to death by their owners.

I sense, I can feel the same thing in myself. The quiet time I spend in meditation, not doing anything in particular other than just relaxing, not giving energy to thinking, just feeling my heart - in times like those I feel loved unconditionally by my own energy pack, my own life force. I feel caressed, cared for, contented, peaceful, and, sometimes, even very happy. What did I do to deserve those precious feelings? Nothing, nothing at all. All I did was to give my high-powered, supercharged intellect a rest. In the interim, I get to feel the effects of that unconditional love massaging, caressing my heart ever so gently, ever so sweetly.

This is the closest I can come to trying to explain what I mean by unconditional love. There may be other 'kinds' of love, but, in my experience, ALL other loves ARE conditional. They are given in the expectation of being reciprocated at some point. But not my life force, my energy pack. It loves me unconditionally.

So, what does this all have to do with M? That's the point. Nothing. Muffin and Misty don't know about him. But that doesn't stop them from enjoying their own little energy packs of unconditional love. Say what you want, believe what you want, but they look pretty happy and contented to me. I feel lucky to have been open enough to have been able to have learned from my own little Kittyji and Poochieji.

Thus spaketh Teef.

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 03:37:41 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Unconditional Love
Subject: Teef
Message:
I dont know if animals are under the same set of rules we are.
YOU, as a human, have to have a load of trouble come your way in life and maybe they have no such requirement.

I had a bit of a 'love' moment yesterday actually, A couple freinds invited me to a bar and I did the unusual and had a drink. Asked the bartenderette to just make up something, her choice, and I ended up standing by the Jukebox speakers looking at the sunset tripping my brains out briefly and I embraced life in a hug.

Mostly, I get unreliable positives and negatives out of those close to me and even the kids, who can deliver the best positives, are unable to maintain that and they also have to deliver some blows as well. I accept that.

I think you should revel in your cozy environment while you can, life is rough also and no doubt going to mess up your scene-if only because 'it's there', or because of some built in factor like the devil idea or whatever is the reason or mechanics behind the troubles that NO ONE is able to avoid in life.

I do actually wish I could find SOMEONE who had beat the system, but even if they did, I dont put it past the 'devil' thingee to reincarnate them just to get to even the score -next lifetime-.

I suggest, as a way to insure yourself against that nasty bastard side of life, to commit a mercy killing of your household and yourself.
Dont get me wrong, the best revenge against that thing that has your beautiful life in it's evil crosshairs, is to rob it of it's chance
to fuck it up. Then again, the damn system probably is built to punish you if you do.

The only way I know to sidestep the (possibly) worst stuff life will throw at you, is to just assume completely that you will see those you love in heaven after this life, and trust that thinking enough to keep you away from the pain of love lost.

I hope you didnt read my post as the last thing you need is to hear from me and my scowling look at god. Better to walk on the sunny side like you are then listen to the man whispering obscenities in the shadows as he darts past the church windows where the refrain 'all prise and honor to you almighty god' comes drifting by.

You know, not to be smart about it, but I know a family with a down syndom kid in her 20's. Now THERE is a woman who has unconditional love.
However, her parents, being humans, manage to find her unconditional love tiring. Maybe you would feel that way about Poochieji if he was the size of a cow. Perhaps?
Cute, but the size thing just makes him intolerable.
Or, if he developed a wicked fart problem.
Unconditional yes, but only if the conditions are right.

Even god cant seem to muster up unconditional love.
Just look at Jim, HE is going to hell!

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 11:06:11 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Hi Bill
Message:
Interesting thoughts. Sounds like you're going through quite a lot, there. Thanks for sharing. Good luck with your exing.
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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 16:01:54 (EST)
From: bill-
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Is he worth touching?
Message:
Hi Teef, I have to admit, your paragraph about the ninth house astrologically, is funny the way it is written. In fact, I think you deserve some form of creative writing award.
I am at the library, walking home after dropping off kid number 3's
car at the garage. You are right that I go through a lot here.
I GUESS I am glad to finally have an explanation for life's ways.
I had to muster up my own version as all the religious versions, (the rawat clans as well), just had no accurate enough take on the hassles life delivers us.
Either it is karma, (your fault again), or it is other people screwing up and it is mostly thier fault and just SOME amount of your fault, or god is trying to teach you something, or the buddhist style version where you have to come back in a body to learn some lesson till the unconcious oneness somehow, in it's sleep, decides to give you a pass. You of course can only GUESS what lesson you are supposed to be learning in all your hassles here.

I say the fault is all gods. He installed a screw you factor into the
everyday lives of all people and they do not have to do anything wrong in life but be here and trouble will find them.
The deal is, NO ONE is allowed to go from success to success to success in life and NO ONE can avoid the stuff in life and if you think you are, either you dont recognise your dilemma, you dont see your problem even though it has you already, which does happen to many, or perhaps it is smooth now, but give it time. It didnt forget you. The analysis of the issue really deserves a whole report, better stated. But, I am not through learning it yet.

For centuries, men could wonder and come up with thier ideas. But now, in a environment where there is money for all your needs and shopping inspired wants, the test has been taken and the results are in, NO ONE can build an environment using money and location to insulate themselves from the screw you factor god installed in everyone's life. We have spent centuries trying to build working systems of govt and economics to have a better life. Worthy endevor certainly, only makes sense, only to prove that god is not all loving!

You said in your post below that it was groovy to 'touch the divine'
it was 'touch' right?
You would have to hope you touch his best side, if he is built that way, because as jesus put it, 'the devil knows not for whom he works'
even if jesus was a deluded fake, he DID at least tie the devil and god together as working buddies. I have to give him applause for that.

Not that I EVER hear that line in any sermon. Preachers cant go there, too much information.
Better to keep things easy to take. Imagine Hansy answering the question from his freinds in high school, 'what does your father do?'
too much information, and you creep up the situation.
Like this post!

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 09:03:10 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Unconditional Love
Subject: is there anything which is NOT Conditional ???
Message:
What exactly is this unconditional thing ??

i can feel myself turning into Jim Heller as I type...

Grrr aaAaaaaaaaaagh !!

I am developing huge logical hives ... I must be allergic to the fluff and feel-good romance of premiespeak - I once ASSUMED that I knew what people meant (or even what I meant) when I said.. 'the heart'... but now I find that such vagueries strike a chill chord down my spine.

These large expansive ideologies are as dangerous as any political ism.. because they become umbrellas for all manner of assumptions to sit under.. and it is in assumptions that mankind has performed its greatest evils.

can I ask about the term 'unconditional love' ? The 'heart' is a tough one to get into.. so lets examine its chief selling point.. unconditional love.

What exactly do you mean. I KNOW what you want it to mean - but lets take it apart -

We are all phenomena (nom ?) (al ?) of a particular universe. Everything is conditional... somehow the IDEA of unconditional love plays into the same infant-mentality trap that the 'blankness' of Knowledge and maha's philosophy allows people to project onto it all manner of personal agendas in the name of 'unconditional love'

A parent's love is conditional on them recognising you as their child.. and those animals are looking after themselves too..yes I am sorry, Pussy has an agenda !

The Sun is conditional in its ability to shine, and we are all subject to the terms and conditions of this material, psychological, social and if you like, spiritual WORLD.

So please tell me what is unconditional about love ? The conditions may be right for it... but why would a plant deny the existance of soil unless it was a daffodil in denial, pretentious enough to fancy itself a lotus ?

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 19:33:08 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net
To: Loaf
Subject: Yes but I have to forewarn you that...
Message:
No offense, Loaf, but I thought I explained above that it is not something that you can comprehend with your intellect. It is something that you can ONLY feel with your heart. That is why I made such a great emphasis on FEELING. If you don't FEEL it or want to that is your prerogative or business but it doesn't mean that others don't touch the divine from time to time.

Calling this premiespeak is as silly as saying you refuse to buy gasoline for your car because you don't like the gas station attendant. We all know M is an outrageous fraud. Not because he necessarily had that terrible of a product but because he not only tried to take ownership of something that never exclusively belonged to him (or anyone for that matter) in the first place but because he sold devotion to himself and he did so not only for money but for our love, our lives, our youth, our careers, our everything. THAT makes him one of the most despicable monsters that the world has ever suffered. BUT it does NOT negate or nullify much of what he peddled. How he went about it was outrageous but many of the truths and truisms that he used in his satsangs are still valid and are not invalidated by the fact that he was a cruel, callous, first class asshole. He just had no right selling devotion, among many other human rights violations.

You are not going to get me to change on this. I was born with Sun conjunct Mars in the fixed sign Aquarius in, of all places, the ninth house of religion, philosophy, universe consciousness and world travel. Plus, Uranus, the ruler of Aquarius is within one degree of my natal Sun position in Aquarius and is fairly close to my natal Mars in Aquarius, again, in my ninth house, something that happens only once in a lifetime. In short, no one is going to get thru to me very easily in the area of my ninth house for a long time to come. I may alter my ideas slightly eventually, but I gotta warn you that you don't have much chance of getting thru to me. You certainly have the right to try and out of respect for your freedom to think, believe and express yourself, I will support your right to do so, but, I have to warn you that you have very little chance of getting through. Anyway, I thank you for conducting yourself as a total net gentleman and I wish you continued happy exing.

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 02:30:08 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Be careful steve
Message:
If you are not extremely cautious, you will end up believing any amount of feel good vagueness.. but will NEVER accept any challenge to your 'inner' world.

I have a friend who deeply believes she is the Godess Isis living in Dewsbury West Yorkshire.

Its her right - but what is impressive is her ability to maintain her conviction in the face of somewhat overwhelming evidence.

It makes her feel good... and she isnt about to let go of it.

Whats wrong with this ? Only that it makes her a sort of isolated figure with a deeply visible inferiority/ superiority complex (whichever you chose)

Does it discount her 'nice feeling'.... nope.

Is she 'special'... nope.

All I want to do is to discuss the notion of 'Unconditional'

FEELINGS are NOT above 'investigation' (For which you claim a penchant)well.. lets investigate and better understand what is going on here.

Please help me to understand why you find this difficult (or impossible). The terrible legacy of the Cult of Knowledge is this belief that there are FEELINGS which defy REASON.. I am not being intellectual here - as indeed my good Friend Bryn Davies will testify, put a complex idea in front of me and I immediately fall asleep - but I am inviting you to examine the LAWS which govern and produce the FEELINGS of Unconditional Love.

Have I got this right ?.. if the Conditions are favourable, you will feel/perceive unconditional love ?

See - there is an interesting dynamic in the relationship of the 'divine' with the sociological...

I have held a firm line as an ex NOT to deny the feelings which attracted me to M and K in the first place.

To understand that Maharaji is a product of the world does not negate or invalidate bliss - but rather in a zen like fashion, it creates a foundation for understanding that negates his Grace but not his Presence.

This is an important point. (I do enjoy my own posts.... dont bother replying Steve.. I am off on my own now !)

Darshan blissed me out. Blew me away. I saw God. Time stopped. BUT 20 yrs later I want to UNDERSTAND the forces which brought about my explosion of perception in that tunnel in Rome in 1982.

The Most perfect Being which I believe I saw was a combination of very understandable elements.. timing, staging, context, peer pressure, knowledge, belief... together with my own carefully managed ingredients.. innocence, wonder, neediness, longing, hope, gratitude and most importantly... STATUS.

Status alone will bliss people out. Celebrity gives enormous power.People swoon at Pop Stars.. i remember reading an article written by a lifelong fan of an old dead British idol (Marc Bolan) which described how he felt when he finally met his hero.... it was frighteningly close to darshan.

So ARE the feelings of unconditional Love I felt that day in Rome 'not something that you can comprehend with your intellect' ??

The FEELINGS are not for dissection - but the circumstances of their birth most definitely are. The Unconditional will only become visible when the conditions are right.

This is the nature of the Lotus.

It strikes me as most healthy to glorify the temporary as the source and foundation of the permenant.

A God created from our own image, and, like the lotus, with feet of clay.

I remember reading a book once.. when I was a fully fledged PWK... and it proposed that conciousness was a phenomenon produced in the brain.

My immediate reaction was to want to deny that I had any roots at all ! Conciousness and all its glories... a chemical, neuropathological bi-product !!! NEVER !

And yet..as I thought about it (and to my credit. I DID think about it) I realised that rather than make conciousness less spectacular and adorable or reducing the status of God, it raises up the created world to meet it.

.. in fact it made me respect my brain a bit more... and then my body and eventually I found that I was being respectful to plants and even society and other people.

Where will it end .. once you start tracing your roots ?

God is a phenomenon (na) of the brain. WOW. The entire universe has conspired to produce my body and brain and my brain has flowered into conciousness which of course feels quite at home and central to the whole show.

Thoughts can be inspiring, beautiful. I am not proposing any of these witterings as fact - but hopefully you wont feel threatened by them.

'Wherever there are Human Beings, there will be flies, and Buddhas'

I suspect you are on the edge of a breakdown.

Good luck Steve. No reply needed, because you wont get me to change my mind, no matter how hard you try.

I guess you will never understand with your limited faith, there are some things which need to be understood, they cannot just be FELT.

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 11:01:39 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Not to worry, Loaf
Message:
Thanks, Loaf. You have some good points here so I'm saving this off somewhere to savor it before it rolls off. My saving grace is that I DO at least have Venus in Capricorn which keeps me just enough down to earth that I keep things together on all levels. Without it, oh yeah, I would be pretty messed up, irrelevant, and useless to anyone else.

You got to admit it would be an incredibly boring world if everybody thought exactly the same, a sort of cookie-cutter, stepford wives kind of society. Viva La Difference!

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 20:07:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: This is a joke, right?
Message:
No offense, Loaf, but I thought I explained above that it is not something that you can comprehend with your intellect. It is something that you can ONLY feel with your heart. That is why I made such a great emphasis on FEELING. If you don't FEEL it or want to that is your prerogative or business but it doesn't mean that others don't touch the divine from time to time.

Calling this premiespeak is as silly as saying you refuse to buy gasoline for your car because you don't like the gas station attendant. We all know M is an outrageous fraud. Not because he necessarily had that terrible of a product but because he not only tried to take ownership of something that never exclusively belonged to him (or anyone for that matter) in the first place but because he sold devotion to himself and he did so not only for money but for our love, our lives, our youth, our careers, our everything. THAT makes him one of the most despicable monsters that the world has ever suffered. BUT it does NOT negate or nullify much of what he peddled. How he went about it was outrageous but many of the truths and truisms that he used in his satsangs are still valid and are not invalidated by the fact that he was a cruel, callous, first class asshole. He just had no right selling devotion, among many other human rights violations.

You are not going to get me to change on this. I was born with Sun conjunct Mars in the fixed sign Aquarius in, of all places, the ninth house of religion, philosophy, universe consciousness and world travel. Plus, Uranus, the ruler of Aquarius is within one degree of my natal Sun position in Aquarius and is fairly close to my natal Mars in Aquarius, again, in my ninth house, something that happens only once in a lifetime. In short, no one is going to get thru to me very easily in the area of my ninth house for a long time to come. I may alter my ideas slightly eventually, but I gotta warn you that you don't have much chance of getting thru to me. You certainly have the right to try and out of respect for your freedom to think, believe and express yourself, I will support your right to do so, but, I have to warn you that you have very little chance of getting through. Anyway, I thank you for conducting yourself as a total net gentleman and I wish you continued happy exing.


---

You're kidding about your astrological explanation for why you're not going to change your mind about things, right? I mean, STEVE! -- this is a joke, isn't it? Steve?

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 23:33:13 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No, I'm not joking.
Message:
No, its no joke. It isn't so much as the REASON that I'm not going to change my mind to suit your taste so much as it is the 'equipment at my disposal' that is predisposing me to believe and adhere to only those things that I have experienced, to not take anything anyone says at face value unless it jives with my own experience. What is feeding the fixed mental equipment, what is inclining me to focus on and place so much importance on FEELING are three other key influences:

Mercury in Pisces (which contributes some psychic ability and which tends to make my mind accept the deepest truths about things on the basis of feeling rather than on purely mental logic),

Cancer rising (which also makes me an emotional sponge, very susceptible and sensitive to feelings), and

Jupiter in Scorpio (fascination with life and death, strong personal magnetism, focus on basic and fundamental rather than trivial pursuits, and strong investigative tendencies)

One who has not made a serious study of astrology will undoubtedly think this is sheer madness. They are entitled to their opinion. 32 years of its study have convinced me that it can provide some pretty amazing insight into the conditions that predispose people to behave the way they do. Some have called it the original psychology.
Those who have eyes to see, will see. Those who refuse to look, never will. Does this make me crazy? No. It just means that I, to put it mildly, dance to QUITE a DIFFERENT drummer than you do.

Accept the fact that you will never make everyone else see things exactly the way you do or the way you would like them to. The best we can hope for is to try to share a little humanity, friendship, and love along life's journey should our paths cross.

Happy exing.

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 00:41:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: How exactly did you study astrology?
Message:
To me, the fundamental question with something like astrology is whether or not it's true. Do you agree? We know it's fancy, complex, colourful and old but is it real? But how can you study that?

Well, the answer is, carefully. Here's a link to a site where some very dedicated, sincere and open-minded fellows did just that. Guess what they found?
[ Astrology and Science ]

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Date: Sun, Feb 17, 2002 at 23:50:58 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Scientifically-same way I study anything
Message:
Jim, you still just don't get it. I've been trying to tell you that I don't care if the whole damn world comes out against Astrology. That doesn't mean a thing to me. I have been lied to and bs-ed to by so many so-called educated persons, scholars and experts that I don't take ANYTHING any of them says on the basis of their supposed credentials alone. I am an EXTREMELY independent thinker. I do my own thinking. I don't let someone else do my thinking for me. I'll listen to what they have to say but, depending on the importance and relevance to my own life, I always subject it to the reality acid test before accepting what they say as truth or fact.

This is how I learn anything: First, I study the theory behind it; then I attempt to verify the truth of that theory with my own practical experience. When I consistently observe over and over and over year in and year out the exact same kinds of behaviors and characteristics exhibited by people possessing the same planetary positions, then, what used to be theory is no longer theory but becomes knowledge. This knowledge, my own knowledge, the knowledge that I work hard to attain becomes mine and no one can take it away from me or try to talk me out of it. Anyone who tries to talk me out of knowledge that I have worked hard to achieve is simply dismissed by me as not having done their homework.

Now, I admit that, while my ability to observe how peoples' behaviors correspond to planetary positions is intuitively obvious and easy for me, having honed my skills at it for nearly 32 years, that same ability may not be so easy for others who lack the intuitive skills needed to make those connections. I can readily see how their failure and frustration at making the connections between theory and observed behaviors could cause them, in their frustration, to debunk Astrology altogether. That is their loss. They are the poorer for it, not me.

So, I doubt if I have changed your mind one iota. But I have attempted to explain HOW I study Astrology - like a science. The practical MUSTmatch the theory. There are some things that I don't accept such as the nodes of the moon and other things, but the basics - the planetary positions in the signs and in the houses and the aspects between planets - those things are very real, true and reliable indicators of human characteristics and behavior dispositions.

Anyway, I've said enough on this on F7 and I won't say any more about it since F7 is supposed to be about helping each other free ourselves from the evil and sick influence that M subjected us to.

Happy exing, Jim.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 11:49:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: No, that's NOT like a science
Message:
Steve,

Your approach to astrology is hardly scientific. But that's all I'll say about it because you're obviously very, very protective of your ideas regardless of how true they are.

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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 16:33:43 (EST)
From: Jim's nemesis
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're entitled to your opinion.
Message:
So am I. No point in either of us wasting each others or others time here on F7. No more responses will be forthcoming from me to you on any subject. Good bye Jim.
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 21:51:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim's nemesis
Subject: Just what I need
Message:
Another new age hissy fit. Look, Steve, you can avoid me all you want but the fact is your approach to astrology is just not scientific. Indeed, you don't deserve to call it that. That's an abomination of the english language. Now why don't you just open up that big, fat selfless heart of yours, give me some of that unconditional love and pause to think about the fact that you just might be wrong.

Or maybe I've forgotten the best part of being so new agey: never having to admit anything.

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Date: Tues, Feb 19, 2002 at 03:39:42 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What if astrology is a hobby??
Message:
Obviously it is not a science. But you may have met a man who is just as stubborn as you. If I had not been so stubborn you might have ruined my pleasure in solving crossword puzzles. Is it okay if Steve calls astrology a hobby like crosswords or cunnilingus?
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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 01:05:42 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dammit, you mean Rawat's not irresponsible
Message:
...because he's a selfish Sagittarius but because he's just a solipsistic asshole?
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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 01:18:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yep and furthemore
Message:
Take a look at that site, Pat. One of the researchers is a professional astrologer who eventually had to admit that he, too, saw it was all a crock. The research stuff and correspondence with astrolgy defenders is quite interesting. These guys were careful and thorough. Too bad for astrology!
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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 01:40:54 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks for link, Jim
Message:
Yes, it's an interesting link, Jim. I found this amusing.

''For, in the first place, if they assert that the man born in Leo is brave because the lion is a valiant and manly beast, how is it that they reckon the Bull, which is on a par with the Lion to be a womanish beast? And secondly, it is nonsense to suppose that the lion in the heavens, that most beautiful Sign, bears any analogy to the earthly lion: for it is probable that the ancients gave them names of this sort merely because of the similarity of their figures, and perhaps not even for this reason, but just for the sake of clearness in exposition.''

That sounds like a thoroughly modern scientific skeptic. Right? No it was the Greek physician Sextus Empiricus, writing in the 2nd or 3rd century AD.

Of course the obvious modern criticism is that the poles have shifted and that the sun no longer falls in the constellations first described by the Chaldeans yet astrologers continue to assign the Bull to May (for instance) when in fact that is no longer the case. I am not a sensible Taurus but actually a flaky Gemini according to the present positions of the constellations and you, my dear fellow, are an irresponsible Sagittarius not a scrupulous Scorpio.

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 13:06:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Great post, Loaf!
Message:
NOW I love you!

:)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 14:41:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Unconditional Love
Subject: Anthropomorphizing
Message:
Steve,

You need a mind to love. Your life force doesn't think. You do. If your life force could think AND it were consicously keeping little Stevieji going, it probably would have all the qualities M keeps attributing to the breath -- dedication, selflessness, quiet, humble dependability. Yes, if it were conscious and deciding to keep you going breath-by-breath, for sure you could assume that it was giving with no expectations of any return.

But, Steve, that's all a myth. Study evolution a bit. Read The Blind Watchmaker and then tell me if you still think this way. Hell, maybe I'm wrong and there really is a loving, conscious life force. But it sure doesn't seem that way, not in the face of science.
[ The Blind Watchmaker ]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:52:38 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller: Anthropopathism
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: would be closer but it too falls short
Message:
It's really quite simple. M didn't discover this - this truism was around for a long time before he ever hit the scene and adopted it - but, nevertheless, that doesn't diminish the truth of this famous statement: something infinite (the power that powers and sustains everything) cannot possibly fit into something finite (our minds or intellects). Just cannot be done. It's too big. So any statement that implies that it is possible to apply mental functions to something infinite (or more accurately, to circumscribe something infinite with something as puny as our minds) as was done by the statement: 'Your life force doesn't think.' is just another way of attempting to ignore the fact that the infinite power that forms the ultimate building block of everything that exists is just too fine, is too 'tiny' - hell the mind itself is ultimately made up of that tiny, tiny stuff. How in the world can something at such a crude, gross, low level of creation possibly 'comprehend' the very stuff that it itself is made of? I guess it is just a very very hard lesson for some folks to comprehend: The infinite is beyond comprehension by intellect. The closest you can come to it is thru experiencing its most extraordinary attributes in your heart: love, peace, tranquility, self-satisfaction, true happiness. That's the closest we can get to it. We will NEVER understand it. We can only FEEL it. No matter how clever the ideas are that we try to come up with to try to understand the infinite, they will always fall short. Food is for eating. Water is for drinking. Air is for breathing. Mind is for solving practical, finite world types of problems to help us deal with the material plane. But the Heart - that most magnificient and precious gift that has been given to us - it alone has the capability of 'knowing' anything at all of the infinite within us.

The same goes for the statements: 'Hell, maybe I'm wrong and there really is a loving, conscious life force. But it sure doesn't seem that way, not in the face of science.' Again, science which deals with only things that are measurable (which means, by definition, are finite), will NEVER be able to explain or formulate rules or postulates about something that is completely beyond measurement.
Science has its limits. It can only go so far. That is why we have hearts - so that we can go beyond the limitations of science and experience the qualities, the attributes of the infinite the way we need to experience them. That's the best we can do. For me, that is more than enough. And all it costs me is humility and an open heart. Don't need no massuh, no go-between-guy, nuthin like that. Just me and the energy sustaining me, my own power pack.

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 13:25:56 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Anthropopathism
Subject: With all due respect, Steve
Message:
Steve,

You strike me as a truly intelligent, sincere, well-intentioned, honest, thoughtful and articulate person .... trying to make the very best of an outdated, dead-end template. I'm serious, you should read some science. Rather than re-inventing the wheel here, I urge you to read a primer on evolution. I get teased a lot for being such a Dawkins' fan but he's just renown as a gifted popularizer of evolutionary theory who's not afraid to take the theory through to its natural, atheistic conclusions. But even if you don't go that far with him, you simply have to get the theory. It will change everything for you.

It's like an earthquake; it's like The Matrix but in reverse. What I mean by that is that The Matrix, in its gimmicky, sci-fi way, posits a hyper-intelligent universe that's playing us this way or that. Think of it as 'God Plus'. Evolution, on the other hand, explains just how we've evolved in all our wondrous complexity without any intelligent design whatsoever! 'God Minus', then.
Until you understand that most amazing interaction of random mutation and natural selection, you won't get it. You won't understand life at all, quite frankly. Yes, it's that fundamental. Strong statement? Yes, but -- fortunately or unfortunately, however you look at it -- true.

All you've got to go by now, Steve, are your impulses and whatever instinctual read you can take on life, charged and assisted, I'm sure, by all sorts of spiritual stuff you've been exposed to over the years. The thing about evolution, though, is that it's not necessarily that intuitive at all! There's nothing obvious about the fact that we descended from bacteria, is there? Or that our intelligent brains might have developed without the aid of an intelligent brain-designer. Nonetheless, those are unavoidable conclusions in science today. Yes, there's a religious front that tries to attack evolution at various levels but their efforts are in vain; the evidence is overwhelming.

So, there it is. You can believe what you want to believe or you can let science show you what it currently knows, how it got there and where it's current questions are. Your call. Some people don't want to take their long-cherished spiritual beliefs to market. Fine. But, if you're actually interested in learning something here, I think that's just got to be your next step.

Jim

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 00:47:40 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller: Anthropopathism
Subject: Steve, where do you get the idea
Message:
that your 'heart' is feeling 'infinity'? Isn't this your mind giving you an interpretation of 'where' something you are feeling is located?

The notion of 'heart' is something left over from medieval conjectures, when it was thought the heart which pumps blood was the seat of consciousness, just as the liver was one of the sites of 'humours' which help make up our sense of self.

According to that fumbling tool, science, the mind is the connectivity of impressions recorded by the brain. A brain surgeon stimulating the temporal lobe can create sensations of 'cosmic' consciousness in the patient, or even the impression that a 'divine' presence is with the patient. It doesn't make it any less far out for the recipient of the experience, but it's still just a bit of metal touching a bit of tissue which gives the impression of infinity.

Personally I think it's an inbuilt coping mechanism created via evolution for a primate with an awareness of time, but that's just a rudimentary theory I'm working on at the moment. And at the moment it makes more sense to me than any arbitrary division of the universe into 'material' and 'spiritual' planes.

May your brain be with you,

McDuck

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 07:15:55 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: It's not my idea. Old as the ages.
Message:
The type of 'heart' referred to is not the one that pumps blood. The 'heart' I'm talking about is a rather romantic, poetic, non-scientific way of describing that magnificient something-or-other within us (whatever it is) that makes it possible for us to 'feel' anything. Just as we can choose to eat junk food or healthy food, so we can choose to dwell on or feel pain and sorrow or we can choose to focus on the joy inside which for most folks is lying dormant, untouched by their unthirst. Oh, there's a heart there alright. But we have to dig a bit to enjoy it.

Believe what you want, ignore what I'm saying if you want to, but what I'm telling you is nothing new. I hate to sound like a broken record but our minds have limited functionality - and one of those functions most definitely not is the ability to comprehend something as vast, as powerful, as magnificient, as awe-inspiring as the infinite energy sustaining. It just can't do it. That is what the 'heart' is for. To touch (not comprehend), to bask in the rays of its sunshine. It's there. We just gotta dig. Happy exing.

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 15:01:19 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Old as the ages?
Message:
Does that make it true?

A little Dawkins gem: there are three bad reasons for believing something to be true, Tradition, Authority and Revelation.

Sorry, short of time to go into it, maybe someone else will, all the best, Steve, Lesley

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 19:49:07 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Yeah, so what.
Message:
A scientist who I respect probably more than any other, Albert Einstein, said something along the lines that religion begins where science leaves off, or something like that. Anyway, you can quote who fits your belief systems, and I can do the same. We are not going to change each other. I think we tend to believe what we think will best help us along our path of evolution at a particular point in time.

I try to distill things down to their essence. To me, the whole point of everything I do is the bottom line of it all which to me is simply: be happy. Happy exing.

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 20:05:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Wow! Wha an open-minded guy!
Message:
A scientist who I respect probably more than any other, Albert Einstein, said something along the lines that religion begins where science leaves off, or something like that. Anyway, you can quote who fits your belief systems, and I can do the same. We are not going to change each other. I think we tend to believe what we think will best help us along our path of evolution at a particular point in time.

I try to distill things down to their essence. To me, the whole point of everything I do is the bottom line of it all which to me is simply: be happy. Happy exing.


---

NOT!

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 23:37:31 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're really gonna love this.
Message:
Jesus couldn't save em all either. (How's your blood pressure, now? Tee hee.)
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 15:53:47 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And Jim, you need to read 'Snapping'...
Message:
Jim,

You've got to read Snapping. I never judge a book by it's cover, but I do judge a book by those who recommend it. It's been suggested by many here, including me. One thing I always look for on jacket covers is the list of reviewers. On the back of the Snapping cover, one of my most favorite authors, Kurt Vonnegut, said this:

''Snapping is an exciting and responsible and original piece of research which has taught this old poop amazing new ways to think about the human mind.''

I love that old poop.

Cynthia, not too bossy
[ Snapping ]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:12:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I tried to read it but just couldn't
Message:
Cynthia,

Laurie -- the girlfriend -- tried to order the book but couldn't find it or it was out of stock or something. At least that's what she told me. But now I see it's on Amazon so, after I have a few words with Laurie and hopefully really get down to the bottom of this, I'll get it.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:59:54 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You can get it...
Message:
Jim,

When I tried to get the book Raven it was out of print. So I tried half.com and they offer options other than Amazon.

Btw, when I got Raven, it was supposed to be a used copy, but it was new, and bound a with library protective cover, which was surprising and a nice touch.

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 19:47:32 (EST)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: books suck
Message:
That blind watchmaker guy gave me a headache pronto and that horrible font and those crappy illustrations made me wanna scream. I tore the cover in half and fired it like a frizbee across the bedroom. It landed on the dresser where one cat happen to be lickin'itself and also the residence of a half finished bottle of beer which was subsequently immensely enjoyed by both cat and carpet.

I've had a phobia towards that Jenkins feller ever since...

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:11:38 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: GErRy....
Message:
Ger,

Books don't suck and I don't believe for a moment you think that. You just have to read the right ones.

Okay, Okay, I've pushed Snapping enough.

Read a good novel. Read a mystery. I love all books. I have a feeling I'd be bored to tears by 'The Blind Watchman' because I don't believe in being an absolutist about my beliefs, I try to be open, but the writer must be good.

If you want to read a great book, read Briar Rose by Jane Yolen. It's a story written as a fairy tale, Sleeping Beauty. The reason it came to my attention is because some right wing parents whose kids attend one of the local middle schools wanted to ban it and I had to read it before I went to meetings about book bannings or wrote one of my terse letters to the editor of our weekly rag, ''The Valley Reporter,'' (It's nickname is the Valley Distorter.)

So I contacted the school librarian and got a copy. It's a story about the holocaust written as a fairy tale by ''Gemme'' the grandmother in the storywho lost her memory about her life in a Nazi extermination camp in Poland. All she could relate to her grandchildren was the story of Briar Rose.

I don't want to give the story away, but it's a simple and brilliant interpretation of the fairy tale, and the truth discovered by a granddaughter whose ''Gemme'' asked on her deathbead, ''find the castle, the schloss, I am the princess.''

There are so many books other than science, religion, meditation, cult-busters. I love a good mystery, a good detective novel. True crime. Whatever you/ like. It really doesn't matter.

My rule is this: if I can't get through the first chapter, I dump the book. I'll even give the 2nd chapter a try, but if it doesn't please me, I dump it.

Life is too short to spend reading books one doesn't like. For me, reading is a pleasure not a task.

So.....don't be so poopy about it.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 12:16:29 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Reading
Message:
Thanks for the review. Briar Rose really sounds interesting.

But, Cynthia, I can't just read one chapter or two. I MUST read the entire book once started. Am I just totally anal?

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 13:16:25 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: Reading (OT)
Message:
Hi OTS,

I can't answer whether or not you're anal.:) And I don't put a book away because it's beyond my intellect because I love to learn through reading.

I have made it a rule that if I think the writer is a shitty one--fiction or non-fiction, I won't read it. Maybe I'm a book snob. I'll give any book a good chance, and if it doesn't cut it for me the bookmark comes out and I go on to something else.

I read everything that interests me in non-fiction, science, politics, biographies, history, etc.. I also read fiction for the sheer
pleasure of good writing and storytelling. It's just how I am. There a many nationally renowned writers in Vermont--they've either lived here their whole lives or have moved here to write, so it's great to be able to go to their readings when a new book comes out.

I never leave the library with fewer than 5-6 books. I always have a huge pile on my nightstand. When I run out of books to read, and don't want to re-read something in my personal collection, I have to go back to the library (which is one room about 40feet x 40 including the children's section). My librarian is able to get me anything I want through intra-library loan system which includes regional, local, and university libraries in the state. We don't even have library cards, just numbers. It's also a meet and greet place where good conversation happens about what we've read (it's not a library where ya have to be quiet). A good source for recommendations.

I simply don't like to waste time on crappy writers. There are so many good ones who deserve attention. I just finished reading Barbara Kingsolver's novel Prodigal Summer. That woman is so gifted I can't describe what her writing does to me. Her novel The Poisonwood Bible was also superb.

It's a subjective thing, I guess--how we read.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 15:41:41 (EST)
From: Gina
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Reading (OT)
Message:
(Oops, I hit enter before I wrote the message...thank you to whoever it was recently who posted the instructions for going back in and editing your message.)

Hi, Cynthia,

I also am a big fan of Barbara Kingsolver.
A few more good authors...and of course, as much as you read, you probably know these already very well, but just in case you haven't read them yet:
Margaret Atwood...The Handmaid's Tale is still my favorite of hers, but like Kingsolver, everything she writes is so good
Joanne Harris...Chocolat, Blackberry Wine and her newest book Five Quarters of the Orange, which is to me her best yet
Melinda Haynes...Mother of Pearl
Sena Jeter Naslund...Ahab's Wife (Ahab of Moby Dick), along the same lines as Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon, telling the story from the woman's point of view

Take care,
Gina Boger-Haney

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 18:14:38 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Gina
Subject: To Gina: Reading (OT)
Message:
Hi Gina,

Thanks for the recommendations. I've read Margaret Atwood, but the others you mentioned I haven't gotten to yet, but will.

Here's my sample list of favorite writers (not complete) and all novelists:

Maya Angelou - Anything she writes
Alice Walker - Ditto
Julia Alverez- How the Garcia Girls Lost Their Accent a favorite because she was my neighbor when she wrote the book, and a cool woman. Her husband waited one New Year's Eve while she put the book to bed, then they drank champagne and danced in the Vermont winter wonderland! She was published then moved to Darthmouth to teach.

Zora Neal Hurston - Their Eyes Were Watching God, Jona's Gourd Vine, and her collection of southern Negro folklore and songs: Mules and Men If you don't know her, she was a much ignored southern black women who studied anthropology, North of the Mason/Dixon line, then went back south to collect stories and write. Alice Walker among others, brought attention to her vast intelligence and writing.

Lousie Erdrich - The Bingo Palace, Love Medicine and many others--one of my favorite novelists.

Wally Lamb - the man who can write in a woman's voice - She's Come Undone

Gloria Naylor - Afro-American writer of Mama Day

Annie Proulx - The Shipping News and all her others (another Vermont writer)

Anita Shreve - The Weight of Water and The Pilot's Wife

Christopher Bohjalian - Midwives don't know him but he lives in Lincoln Vt, one short drive over Lincoln Peak. His other books are very good as well. Another writer who has the ability to write in the first person in a woman's voice. A favorite.

Howard Frank Mosher - Collection of Stories But his story, ''Where The Rivers Flow North'' was made into a wonderful movie. Got to read the book to understand the Northern Vermont/Canadian dialect. Also Disapearances is a favorite--a regional writer who lives in the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont.

Truman Capote - Anything he wrote

Alexander Solzhenitsyn - anything he's written, btw, he also took refuge in Vermont during his exile from the Soviet Union; the local townfolk protected his privacy, and he lived in a home that was barb wired for security from the KGB. He's back in Russia now.

KURT VONNEGUT - Anything this man writes is an inspiration to me. I love him. I adore him. Right now, because I haven't gotten to the library this week to get more books, I'm re-reading Fates Worse Than Death. I adore him. He is the most honest author I've ever known, and a wacko too. Kurt Vonnegut is someone I wish I could know. He's turning 80 this year and I'm reading all his books again in his honor.

That's just some of the fiction I like....Non-fiction favorites to come

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 21:48:28 (EST)
From: Gina
Email: all-yall@mindspring.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: To Cynthia: Reading. Thanks! (OT)
Message:
Thanks so much, Cynthia, for your thoughtful reply!
Wow, Vermont IS such a rich place for a reader to live, among so many good writers. How very cool.

Ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto on Maya Angelou, Zora Neale Hurston, Alice Walker (I used to drive through the little town of Gray, Georgia, in the area where The Color Purple took place, as well as Eatonton, where she's from, to go from Macon to Athens. When I read the book, I knew exactly how it looked. Ms. Walker sometimes does book signings and readings in Atlanta, sponsored by the feminist women's bookstore here, Charis Books, which I've taken my daughters to...I took my oldest daughter, about 15 at the time, to hear her read from Possessing The Secret of Joy...wow, was that powerful.) And Gloria Naylor...Ms. Naylor's Mama Day is great...thank you for reminding me of it! I know well a black woman named Leila Belle, in my mother's hometown, who is very much like Mama Day.

Also, thank you for reminding me of Wally Day's She's Come Undone...I forgot to read it...now I certainly will! Anita Shreve and Annie Proulx, too. And the others you mentioned that I've not heard of yet. Thanks.

I love Vonnegut and I didn't realize how old he was. Breakfast of Champions is the first book of his I ever read and is still a favorite. I've never read Solzhenitsyn, but I read about him a long time ago, I think it was a long article in Rolling Stone, not sure...and I remember about him living in Vermont. Seems like the name of one of his books is Gulag Archipelago?

I loved the book Midwives...it struck very close to home for those of us working with home and hospital birth. But, there was a detail in the story that continues to disturb me a little...Mr. Bohjalian did incredible research and the book is amazing, but the maternal death he described as being due to a vagal response from pushing for 4 hours was more like what happens with an amniotic fluid embolism, something equally as rare but once you've seen it happen (it's almost instantaneous death and you must take drastic emergency measures to get the baby born immediately) you never forget it. Some of us discussed that book at length...boy was it food for thought. He did a beautiful job telling that story.

I have three more I thought of that you might like:
Michael Ondaatje (The English Patient)...Anil's Ghost

And two books in which, for me, the very powerful use of language in the telling of the story is as powerful as the stories themselves:
Toni Morrison...Song of Solomon (everything she writes is powerful, but this one is the strongest in my humble opinion) and
Andrei Makine...Dreams of my Russian Summers. The author was born and brought up in Russia, wrote the book in French while living in France. Then it was translated to English by a scholar of both Russian and French. The story and the telling are equally compelling. Really wonderful.

And I wanted to tell you, perhaps here is not as appropriate as up above somewhere (I'm a little embarrassed to post up above now because I think my comment yesterday in Susan's Holi song thread was really inappropriate and tacky, but it flew out of my fingers and I hit post reply before I thought better...god, I hate it when I do that, and now it's hanging out there and won't go away!), but I was just a little while ago reading your posts about Deca...this is something I never knew anything about until I read about it here. I'm glad you survived and that it's way behind you now. It sounds like those days...years, I should say...were ultimately really awful, actually dangerous for you and so many others. Thank you for telling the story...it helps those of us who weren't there understand what y'all went through to take care of a cultmaster who didn't really care anything about taking care of you. I'm just so sorry it was so hard. And I'm so glad you're free of it now.

Thanks again for the book recommendations!
Love,
Gina

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:33:06 (EST)
From: Lil Darlin
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What Could Have Been
Message:
RE: What I really think or, in my humble opinion, what could have been

I find time and time again that when I have an inspiration to do or write or make something, if I wait too long someone beats me to it. That’s okay, as long as it gets done. So, forgive me for the repetition that might follow.

The recent thread “I think--Knowledge Good/Gurus Bad” has been a post I’ve been milling around in my mind for quite some time now.

Since way before I disassociated myself from M and EV, which was recent, I tried to have dialogue with premies in formal groups and one on one. Basically, my point was and is that “knowledge” now called “self-knowledge” and for that matter Maharaji should stand on their own merit -- plain and simple without the trips and trappings. Needless to say, my input was ignored and sometimes I was reprimanded. Shocked, they were, at my irreverence. I’m so happy to now, through this Forum, be able to express freely to ears that hear. Thank you. Let me say, however, that I understand that we all have such individual takes on this and everything else, and I appreciate that.

First of all, Maharaji should have listened to Bob Mischler’s suggestion to focus more on the “K” and not on devotion to M. His take was visionary and right on. I applaud Bob posthumously.

Maharaji, if I may analyze where he was and is coming from, had an unconditional adoration for his Dad, Shri Hans. M was desperate to carry out his Dad’s mission and bring the whole kit and caboodle to the West. (It’s interesting the use of the word “spreading” the knowledge, as in spreading when referring to disease. Maybe someone else already noted this.)

Think of it. Little M being brought up in that environment. It’s quite evident that he saw and sees his Dad as a “god.” Many little boys look up to their father and want to be like him when they grow up. But Shri Hans, he was both worshipped and feared. Wow! What shoes M had to fill. So, there M is -- stuck in the concrete of the past. His Mom, Mataji, is another matter entirely. I don’t think M liked her very much (another analysis for another day). M was and is blind to his own tragic destiny. My, my.

So, 12-year-old Maharaji, being very determined and quite smart, gets his butt over to England and the U.S. where all of us were ripe for the picking. Having rejected the paradigms of our parents and society, combined with the “mind-blowing” opening from the psychotropic drugs we used, questions needed to be answered, very important life-dependent questions.

And there it was -- the BIG K. A promise for salvation. Sounded good to me. Little did I know what lied ahead.

To make a long story short, years went by and we find ourselves in a very precarious way. Yeah, M made changes to throw out the Hindu stuff -- but they were superficial at best. He needed to overhaul the whole dang thing. He said “Have no concepts” “This is no religion here.” Pfffffff, Tuuuuuh, Puuuuuuh. BTW, when people want K now, they should heed the old warning: Buyer Beware!

I felt the muck and mire of the sitiation (NY pronunciation) and sought out a way to learn outside the parameters of the teachings of M. Thank “god” I was brave enough to develop on my own -- to nurture my emotional and psychological side, way before I left.

The way the cult is set-up is so emotionally unhealthy, as we know. Many premies, including M, are stunted. They ignore this side of themselves, thinking K and devotion is all they need. Thus, all the destructive behaviors popping out due to the suppression of facing oneself. M and the honchos are motivated by the fear of losing control over the membership. You call that feeling free? You call that peace? You call that love? Maybe this is a generalization, and maybe hopefully this will change (a little optimism). I think it’s too late, though.

M thinks he’s royalty: “Great King.” So, he needs to perpetuate his opulent lifestyle. That’s what he’s always known and he’s always depended on -- devotion to himself. It’s a shame because he does/did have some groovy insights and not a bad delivery, which I think has/had value along with the 4 techniques. Could be a good package. It’s too bad he can’t present himself as a facilitator of the 4 techniques, a human with flaws, command not demand respect and love, trust that “propagation” would follow naturally, if it’s his pure sincere desire to just help people.

The K is not all so grandiose. M could charge for his speaking engagements -- no more fundraising! He could settle for less personal wealth. As he said/says, it’s just some simple techniques. In my opinion, what you “experience” is what you experience. No big woop.

I’m done with explanations of what really can’t be explained. Who started this “god” thing anyway. We are simple creatures. I feel we’re here to love and respect ourselves, others and nature. And I try to stay out of harm’s way and have some fun and sometimes get really jazzed, that’s a great treat. I feel gratitude for it all.

There are always opportunities to learn even if you’re in a cult. BTW, I still sit down and focus on the 4 techniques.

Whew, it’s 3:20 a.m. and I’m signing off barely seeing the page.

Good wishes to you all. Happy Valentine’s (Hallmark) Day

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 13:47:36 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Lil Darlin
Subject: Brava, Lil Darlin
Message:
Very well articulated and extremely heart felt indeed. If there were such a thing, your 'dissertation' would surely garner you a Phd in M&K-DLM-EV studies.

Too bad indeed that the mandate GMJ was given also became the thing that drove him to drink and the narcissistic behavior described in Cynthia's post. He came to the west with an admirable purpose and we fueled his stated goal only to see our contributions and his mission squandered.

All the king and queen's horses
and all the king and queen's men and women,
Couldn't put Humpty together again.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 07:02:27 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: mistyqm@attbi.com
To: All
Subject: Lancing the M-cult boil
Message:
A neat(?!) analogy came to me when I was talking with mystery woman Z.

I said that being in the cult is like slowly acquiring a boil. When the pain of it gets to the
point where you can't stand it anymore, you realize you have to make the decision to exit
(lance it). That decision (the actual lance) and the days and weeks immediately following it (the draining of the boil's pus) are extremely painful because of the pain caused by the pressure of the pus (decades long, cummulative effect of the cult's brainwashing). With time (draining) the pus becomes less and less and with it, the pressure becomes less and less. Eventually, we are virtually free of the pus and pressure (liberation from the cult entirely). (We are talking a bit of time here, however.) The pain is directly proportional to how closely we clung to M. In spite of that pain, it does ease up, albeit slowly, with the passage of time. For those who are still very conscious of the pain, a suggestion is to try not to dwell too much on the particularly painful time when your boil was lanced. Rather, try to keep focused on the fact that your pus and pain are slowly, slowly, but steadily decreasing.

Thus spaketh Teef

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:27:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Re: Lancing the M-cult boil
Message:
That was really ....um ...beautiful, Steve. I think I'm gonna print this one for my fridge.

:)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:10:53 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why, was your fridge in a cult? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:54:09 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: No, Jim must be on a diet...
Message:
That's funny John, but perhaps putting the above post on his fridge, complete with the festering pustule and draining pus, would take anyone's appetite away.

You make me laugh!

Tonette

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 00:00:55 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: No, Jim must be on a diet...
Message:
Australian performer Barry Humphries, better known as Edna Everage, once had an art exhibition. He put some yellow custard in a pair of gumboots and called it, 'Pus In Boots'.
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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 00:03:28 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: And what's funny about that
Message:
Is the fact that everyone probably ohhhhhhhh and aahhhhhhh over such extrodinary art work.

But that was funny McDuck! Still laughing.

Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 15:39:11 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Cute, Jim...
Message:
Steve,

Does that mean that ''watched puss always boils?'' :)

I understand what you're driving at, not focusing on the pain. But in order to get through pain there are times when one has to focus upon it. Let me put it another way.

When someone dies there is much grief for those closest to the one who is gone, i.e., spouse, child, lover, parent, etc. There are stages of grief that occur:

1. Denial and Isolation
2. Anger
3. Bargaining
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

These grief stages don't only apply to the loss of a loved one through death, nor do they occur in the order listed above. Divorce, a relationship loss, loss of a career cause grief. The loss experienced by exiting a personality cult can cause excruciating sadness, loss of spirituality, and confusion. It's been my experience that avoiding pain can be very detrimental to maintaining good mental health. I agree that dwelling on the pain alone can be unhealthy, too. Yet, without facing the grief by going through it, a person will never heal from the loss. I often admire the way African-Americans grieve. They wail and moan. Much more healthy than keeping a stiff upper lip, as so many in our culture do.

I've learned that the only way out of grief is through it. That's territory for the courageous and it doesn't necessarily shorten or lenthen the time of the pain, but it is a process. When the loss is fresh and new that lanced boil hurts like hell. Once a boil is lanced, the puss usually bursts out quickly, the lancing is painful, but the healing begins quite quickly.

Anyway, I thought I'd put my 2 pennies worth in here. My experiences in getting through intense grief has been to face it head on (it took me years and years and years to learn thatt). Some people are afraid to cry because of the fear that the crying will last forever. I always like to quote Joni Mitchel's song ?? where she sings ''Laughing and crying is the same release.'' It's true. I think that's why we exes here must have comic relief.

A therapist once gave me some useful advice at a time I was terrified to face my grief, afraid to cry, because I thought it would last forever. She said this: ''When you feel like you are going to cry just visualize yourself as a tube. Visualize your crying and the sadness going up and out of yourself, just right out of the top of your head.''

And guess what? Every time I cried, I found out that the crying stopped and so much tension and fear left me; the crying did stop, too. I guess it's an esoteric way of saying the endorphins work. The fact of what caused my grieving never left, but the grief has certainly gone away. It takes a lot of time and each individual needs to know their own limits in order to avoid overloading. So I guess I agree and disagree, but that's my personal experience.

The grief I was speaking about wasn't about the cult. The grief over exiting the cult is unique. It's particular to every ex-premie, and everyone has choices to make.

That's it. That's my speil.

Love,
Cynthia
[ Stages of Grief ]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 22:56:17 (EST)
From: Steve Mueller
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Speediest route to healing
Message:
I don't know about 'watched puss' boiling, but from what PAMs' have reported, watched Prem boils.

I don't have all the answers to all problems but I do speak from my own experience, not from books, when I say that intense focus on positivity (humor, compassion, understanding, practical love, appreciation for the progress you've already made) is the fastest way to move beyond depression, negativity, even despair towards self healing. And helping others with their healing process speeds up your own healing process even more.

I've always preferred the fast path (ie, helping others) towards happiness myself. What others choose to do is certainly up to them.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 23:32:40 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Mueller
Subject: Of course, Steve...
Message:
That's why those of us who suffer too much need kind people like you.

:):)

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 06:26:10 (EST)
From: The Maharaji of Malibu
Email: None
To: All
Subject: IMO appears to be one sick puppy ji
Message:
From time to time, there has been debate on this forum as to whether the actions of the malibu maha are that of a criminal or the criminally insane.

From the Dettmers interview below,one must conclude it is the latter. This can only be refuted by someone who has spent as much or more up close and personal time(X-rated).

It appears that the Maharaji of Malibu really believes his own shit. I'm not sure how this makes me feel. On the one hand, I can feel better about my decision making in that he believed himself. On the other hand, well, those who have seen the movie KING of HEARTS will understand.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:28:54 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu
Subject: Maharaji may be sick...
Message:
I don't believe that m is criminally insane, nor does he have a diminished capacity to understand right from wrong. But that would be for lawyers and psychologists to determine.

However, when I read your post above I thought about Betty Broderick, a woman who killed her ex-husband and second wife. It was a sensational and widely publicized case because in her first trial (which ended in a mistrial) she had invoked much sympathy from women's groups, feminists, and the general public after hiring a publicist during her incarceration during the trial. In her second trial, she was convicted of second degree murder and sentenced to two consecutive, 15 years to life in prison. The reason I bring up Betty is because I remember the trial, the publicity, as well as her diagnosis of narcissism.

The link provided is startling when one compares the many personality traits of maharaji as described by X-rated PAM's personal experiences with him and his behavior, as well as anecdotal information provided by other premies who have observed his behavior over thirty years.

The definition is provided in the link. What I found to be striking is the following. When you visit the link, there are also interesting FAQs worth a read. Amazing.

FIVE DON'T DO'S
How to Avoid the Wrath of the Narcissist

Never disagree with the narcissist or contradict him

Never offer him any intimacy

Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him (for instance: by his
professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his success with
women and so on)

Never remind him of life out there and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity

Do not make any comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image, omnipotence, judgment, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record, or even omnipresence. Bad sentences start with: 'I think you overlooked ... made a mistake here ... you don't know ... do you know ... you were not here yesterday so ... you cannot ... you should ...(perceived as rude imposition, narcissists react very badly to restrictions placed on their freedom) ... (never mention the fact that you are a separate, independent entity, narcissists regard others as extensions of their selves, their internalization processes were screwed up and they did not
differentiate properly) ...' You get the gist of it.

Co-authored with Alice Ratzlaff - More here: 'The Inverted Narcissist')

Again, I'm no professional, but reading this stuff fit the bill quite well.

Cynthia
[ Narcissism Defined ]

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 15:03:00 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Maharaji may be sick...
Message:
Having read a lot of the above link, I must say it sheds a huge amount of light on narcissm as a personality disorder and how it could well be applicable to M. It also occurs to me - how applicable it could be to many of us. By this I mean the accepting of M as an approving/disapproving father figure and the possible need for many of us to project this onto him. Somewhere in the Narcissism link it mentions how people with this personality disorder are often drawn to one another.....a huge amount of food for thought here, I think.

BTW I'm not suggesting for a moment that this is true of all of us!!!
It's just that i can think of a lot of premies of my acquaintance who suffer from low self-esteem, and have big problems in areas relating to their parents.

Damn, family life calls, I gotta go. More later.

With love, livia

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 15:46:24 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Re: Maharaji may be sick...
Message:
Hi Livia,

I think that what you suggested could be how premies, including exes (programmed to believe in him as LOTU) may have been on the co-dependent side as described in that link. Especially the PAMs who had to handle him and continue to handle him because of his reported volitile personality.

However, there is much more involved here than one person, m, having this disorder (again, I am not a professional and if I was couldn't diagnose someone from afar). I simply thought the charcteristics matched quite well.

M's the king of the empire of a personality cult which brings so much more into the picture. The initial recruiting and programming, lying to us about surrendering our lives to him totally, obeying him implicitly, the sorts of things that wouldn't happen outside of a cult.

I do think that I personally was starved for a 'father figure,' yet m took advantage of that in a way that a regular person who may be narccistic could never do. I was able to remove myself from the narcisstic person in my life, my bio-dad. So I think it's a sensitive thing, to generalize about premies and exes.

I've been posting here for quite a while and I don't find anyone in particular whom I would consider a narcisstic person. I'd have to meet and live with those to really know. Plus, Livia, there are so many after-affects of exiting a cult, including PSTD, depression, suicidal ideation, floating, dissociation, difficulty in re-entering society and families, and of course, sadness.

My rule of thumb (if you'll excuse the origins of that phrase) is this: There's no excuse for bad behavior even if a person is emotionally disabled or disturbed. No excuses, reasons, yes, but m has no excuse for how he has behaved over these last 30 years.

The other part which probably relates to his immediate family is the co-dependency not only on a narcissistic person, but an alcoholic. This is a complicated subject. You're right, much food for thought.

Hope you are well, be good to yourself,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 17:59:50 (EST)
From: Livia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Maharaji may be sick...
Message:
Thanks, Cynthia, and point taken.

I think when referring to premies I was probably meant myself here more than anyone else (should have made that clear), as I know I certainly have father issues, or did have, i.e. 'good dad' and 'bad dad' stuff. I probably had a need for 'good dad' and projected a whole lot of stuff onto M. The projection went very deep which is why I'm still finding it hard to disconnect from the ideas I had about him; intellectually it's not difficult at all but emotionally....well, that's another matter.

With regard to other premies or exes, Mike Finch's excellent list of reasons for becoming a premie probably covers most options!

The narcissism as relating to M is a very potent idea however, and could explain just about everything about the way he relates to premies. He could also have suffered from poor self-esteem in his own childhood as a result of having an impossibly demanding father; this could have created a bottomless pit of a need in him to seek the approval/adoration of others. I'm not seeking to excuse here, just trying to understand, as I think really comprehending what has gone on here in every aspect including M's psychology can only help us all. It was something about that narcissism link that rang huge bells for me, but particularly with regard to M's own pathology.

God I seem to be rambling on here today and not making much sense...sorry to all. I'm tired! Plus, I'm staying with my Dad at the moment for a few days which always brings up a lot of stuff! Aaargh!! Food for thought.....yes.

With love, Livia

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 13:27:54 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Livia
Subject: Livia...
Message:
Dear Livia,

What you said here struck me.

The projection went very deep which is why I'm still finding it hard to disconnect from the ideas I had about him; intellectually it's not difficult at all but emotionally....well, that's another matter.

Livia, I think what you're experiencing (and correct me please) is still part of the cult programming. Our intellect or thinking
processes are connected to our emotions. It's actually been proven by neurologists and neuropsychologists as a function of our brains. That is, our emotions are connected to the thinking part of the brain. When thinking becomes taboo, as in our cult, emotions get cut off and all hell breaks loose because of the disconnect. If I projected my needs on him (of course, there was some of that) it's because of his training. I was in the middle of a major mindf**k. I take responsibility for being in the cult but only to a point.

I'm still not sure how the whole programming thing worked itself over and through my brain and mind and emotions--to be in a cult is a complex experience that affects critical thinking, feelings, and also can damage a human's central nervous system. For me to say I projected his love and divinity, which was false love and false divinity, is a result of cult programming--I was programmed to believe that--I thought I knew he was my lord. It can be difficult to cope with emotions and intellect because when a premie exes it's much more than involved than any other human experience, such as a divorce or death of a loved one.

His love was supposed to be unconditional and our love to him unconditional, too. It turned out to be a major con. That hurts
a lot. It can take some time to work it all out.

To think of myself as projecting on him when it was his cult which I joined voluntarily (at least at first) requires too much self-blame IMHO, and also requires me to take responsibility for M's wrong-doings--to me personally--which I refuse to do.

I think the dilemma exes experience, especially newly exiting premies, is that our love for him was real and was directed toward him, but it was his huge facade, a congame that caused me a lot of grief in the loss and betrayal. It does pass eventually, and the pace of that is individual as we reclaim our selves, and learn to love ourselves more than anyone, anywhere.

Livia, I loved M so much. I gave him everything I owned, including my body, mind, and soul. What did I get in return? A big basket of trouble trying to sort out the pieces of the puzzle after I discovered how much he deceived me.

I think once recruited into the cult I lost my free will. I volunteered to give up that free will, but a point was reached when I was fully programmed (which is why I wanted k--because according to m, it was the only direct route to him) I was a goner.

It doesn't take very long for the recruitment into a cult process to happen. My freedom of thought was stolen through an intensive and structured programming by Maharaji. It took me about two to three evenings of listening to community satsang--boom I was in. The cult programming may have seemed to be unstructured, but that's the trick of a personality cult. I think that once I became programmed and was told over and over by M, and in community satsang, by listening to tapes, to mahatmas and instructors that I must surrender everything to him, to obey him without question, and contantly think of his human divine form, even if I couldn't constantly remember holy name, I no longer was projecting because I lost my ability to think logically and feel any real emotion other than the love he so insatiably desired and demanded of me.

That doesn't make it any easier. It's just a conclusion I've come to after a couple of years of this so-called exiting process.

Best wishes to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:30:32 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: FAB Post Cynthia
Message:
i remember off the record conversations I had with senior x rated pams who are still with maharaji. One of them told me how carefully you need to put things to maharaji if you are to contradict him or advise him in any way.

She said that Bill Wisheart and some of the American business types had a good way of handling maharaji, where people who didnt know how to 'put things to him' didnt stand a chance.

She also expressed to me on many occaisions how much she disliked maharaji - that in all seriousness she felt that maharaji didn't care about the premies at all, but was 'playing with them' until he was bored. This friend of mine was residence staff for many years until it became intolerable for her.

I wont mention her name because I am sure it would cause her a lot of trouble if the substance of her conversations with me became known.

She got burned out physically and emotionally by life in the court of Maharaji.. and when I met her she was having a pretty bad time - and still scarred by her years at the residence where her entire self-esteem and identity was dependant on m's approval.

If M looked at her ...or said her name.. a good day
A smile.. a good day
sometimes days went by with no approval at all... and there was self doubt and insecurity and a thousand back biting jelous premies all too willing to step into your place.

The person who must have been in a very difficult position with all of this was marolyn...who married under false pretentions and no doubt has been under pressure from all sides to keep the marriage together - not only to save M's face, but also because of how much of a failure she would look if she walked away from maharaji.

Also she knows probably too much to be allowed to speak freely.

Does anybody know is she is OK ? I am wondering if her illness and the isolation which maharaji has put around her is really and truly for her own good - or is she trapped in a nightmare gilded cage for his benefit ?

She must love her kids.. and I hope they love her too.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 18:35:20 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Thanks, Loaf...
Message:
Hi Loaf,

Thank you, you are a sweet person.:)

I often think about Marolyn and her situation. It's quite unique and without any direct communication with her, impossible to assess.

I do not doubt for one moment that she loves her children. That doesn't mean she would leave m for the sake of her children. She has had plenty of chances to leave when they were little when it really counted. Now, I would imagine, speculate, that the whole family is very disturbed (a living organism of cultist beliefs and dysfunctional behavior, wrapped into six people). They are at the top of the pyramid of a personality cult lead by husband and father. Very different than everyday life.

On average, it takes 10 times for a battered woman to leave an abusive spouse--US statistics. In Vermont and many other states the laws have been changed so that if a woman reports being battered it's considered child abuse too if there are children in the home. These women, at least in Vermont, don't get a chance to take their children back into a home where violence occurs (it's not perfect, and many people fall through the cracks). Usually what happens is that they are court ordered to remove themselves and their children from the home (if the man won't leave) and find safe shelter.

The court order usually involves taking parenting courses, getting therapy, receiving vocational counseling if needed, and learning to stop the cycle especially if male children are involved. I am not being sexist by saying this because the majority of batterers are men, although I know that women batter, too.

The other part is wealth. People with a lot of money will just get separate bedrooms and live out their lives in the weird limbo of a marriage that isn't happening.

But I have no personal knowledge of what Marolyn goes through. I only know that I've experienced m's wrath through observations of how he treated others around me.

It's interesting that you mentioned how certain premies know how to ''handle'' m. That is quite telling, IMO. They've learned to train themselves not to offend him, thus, avoiding confrontation.

Btw, I don't feel sorry for Marolyn because she is a grown woman who has resources available to her to leave if she so wanted. The children! The children! They must be so F**ked up. It's such a pity.

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 12:30:52 (EST)
From: OTS
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Kids
Message:
I liked your response, but your last sentence about the kids: I don't know, dear. I don't know any of them personally, but the eldest really intrigues me. She seems extremely smart, nice, together -- just an impression. I really don't have an idea, however. I saw her last year out taking her daily constitutional (walk). She just seemed like someone I'd like to know -- young and with a different viewpoint and a great smile. But, again, I have no idea. I HOPE, really, that she's fine (and all of them and their mom).
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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 19:35:21 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: OTS
Subject: Re: Kids
Message:
She just seemed like someone I'd like to know -- young and with a different viewpoint and a great smile.

Would she still be smiling if daddy lost his ill gotten gains? Not that he seems likely to,so I guess she can float downstream with the world at her feet & cut out all that boring stuff....you know, what daddy does for a living.

Gimmee a break OTS. You may have a sentimental attachment to these people,but I'd step over them if I found them lying in the street.

Which of course is exactly what they'd do to me (or you) if the position were reversed.

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Date: Sat, Feb 16, 2002 at 01:42:07 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatD
Subject: Re: Kids
Message:
Well, I wouldn't step over them if they were lying in the street, I'd call 911, after asking for my money back. That includes a lot of back pay.

-)
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:04:47 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: The Maharaji of Malibu
Subject: Some observations
Message:
One thing that struck me about Michael's interview was how similar it was to Mishler's interview from 20 years ago. Sure, there were different settings, but the megalomania, the alcoholism, the tirades, the blaming others, haven't changed.

It also appears that Maharaji really is screwed up, but I'm not surprised given his upbringing that is about the most bizarre I could imagine. And because he is surrounded by sychophants, he never gets called on anything. That's how most people stay within the limits of normal self-awareness, by getting feedback from other people. Maharaji rarely has that.

It also appears pretty clear that if he was drinking EVERY SINGLE DAY for that entire 15 years, he was self-medicating with it, as a coping mechanism.

He is one sick person. Unfortunately, most premies don't know any of that, and haven't spent any time around him, or maybe once or twice and he was nice to them so they kind of feed off that for years. Plus, I assume Maharaji can be very sweet and charming. He has had his whole life to learn about how to manipulate people to get them to do what he wants, to some degree of success, at least financially.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:46:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Who wouldn't want to drink in those shoes?
Message:
My guess is that drinking was -- what am I talking about? IS -- the one way M can soften the incredibly high-strung, non-stop Kabuki theatre of him being supposedly divine. He drinks, they drink, everyone has a drink, drink and alcohol gets to be the great social equalizer. At least until the top dog throws a typical booze-enhanced tantrum.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 18:08:29 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A belligerent drunk, sounds like...
Message:
There are many types of drunks. The belligerent type is one that drinks to the point of being verbally abusive, likes to pick fights, and can reach the point of physically harming those around them.

Depends on how much is drunk and what is drunk. For instance, I know someone who could drink beer, wine, etc., (they are an alcoholic) but when that person drank scotch, all hell broke loose.

Sounds like the cognac works on m that way for m. Cognac is a potent potable.

Cynthia, PhD. on potent potables, took the home study course.

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 17:10:56 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Virus Attack/Alert!
Message:
Everyone

Within the last 24 hours I've received infected emails at both my personal email and at my yahoo address.

I consider this to be a direct attack because one of the emails contained verbage related to the Lord, etc., along with the attached virus.

The name of the virus is win32.magistr.24876. The email comes with an attachment which is an executable file. If you have received this because you may be in my address book, please do a virus scan, and under no circumstances open the file.

A description of this virus is at the link posted above.

If you don't have a virus program you can obtain one for free, or on a trial basis to scan your computer.

You can obtain a virus detector at:

http://download.cnet.com/downloads/0,10151,0-10093-106-0-1-0,00.html?tag=dir

This virus apparently scans your address book and sends it to everyone in the address book.

My sincere apologies for this terrible inconvenience, but as I said, it appears that it was targeted to me, I have no idea who sent it, but it happened within the last 24 hours.

Cynthia
[ magistr virus ]

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 17:56:17 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Free and Easy Virus Checking
Message:
For virus checking, I forward any suspect emails to my hotmail account (easy to set up and free), and then let hotmail do the virus checking. I have a virus checking program on my PC but it slows everything down to keep it running all the time, and it's a pain to install it and then uninstall it for every suspect email. The way I've outlined above works really well.

I also received this virus today (didn't open it of course). Could it have been from you, Cynthia? Didn't look like your email address though.

BTW, is it just coincidence that the number of virus emails I receieve has dramatically increased since I took over EPO?

John the virus free - I put it down to the healthy, clean, Latvian air.

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 23:00:16 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: archives are inacessable [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:31:24 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I know, but it's sunny today
Message:
It's next on my list to fix following the recreation of EPO, and its four mirror sites.

For those interested, it's like this. I am happy and willing to put in time looking after EPO, and actually even believe I'm doing a valuable public service. But having spent 25 years believing that the things of this world aren't ultimately real, I want to enjoy this world and this life without living it through the filter of Maharaji's belief system.

Today is a beautiful day. There are no clouds, the sun is shining, the temperature is a perfect -5C, and I'm certainly not going to spend it sitting in front of my computer. I should be able to put a couple of hours in tonight. Of course if someone wants to pay me to do this, that's a different story, but as only six people have donated towards the running costs of EPO, I'm still well out of pocket. BTW, I hope Gerry doesn't mind me saying it but donations towards the running of this forum are covering less than half the costs.

John the about to go out and chop wood.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 09:06:03 (EST)
From: Rupee Murdoch
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: JHB-are $ figures available
Message:
I'm just curious.
I think if the $ totals were available, it might help people get an idea of how much money is needed for epo, and how much is coming in.

I agree that many of us feel that this is a valuable public service that is being performed.

If we understood more about how much is needed, a modest contribution from a number of people might might make it easier.

Is that possible?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 11:56:24 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Rupee Murdoch
Subject: Yes, but why do you want them?
Message:
Dear Mr. Murdoch,

Either I'm being honest when I say I'm out of pocket, in which case, as you say, a modest contribution would make it easier. Or I'm lying, in which case I could just as easily lie when producing the figures. It's up to you whether you trust me. As I say on EPO, if I have an excess, then I'll save it for future costs and publish the fact on EPO.

I will however provide the figures for anyone who contributes, and requests them.

I don't know what Gerry's view on this regarding publishing forum costs is. Perhaps you could ask him.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:13:23 (EST)
From: Opie
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Impeccable logic ...
Message:
John

As always your logic is impeccable.B)

Hmm only six?! Now where are those in paying in details?

OP

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:48:26 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Opie
Subject: OK, I'd like to donate
Message:
but PayPal only deals in US dollars - and add to that the fact that I'm reluctant to divulge my credit details over the net.

Could you email me with an address to send a cheque to?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 14:02:46 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk
To: cq
Subject: For UK residents + PayPal security
Message:
Chris,

I'll email you my bank details.

Anyone else in the UK may prefer to pay directly to my UK bank account. Email me for details. The easiest way for anyone else to pay is PayPal, but as Chris says that involves letting them know your credit card details. For those who are reluctant to do this, all I can say is that it's an established way of paying for goods and services over the net, and the majority of sellers on Ebay, for instance, use PayPal. Anyone still reluctant who wants to contribute, email me and I'll discuss alternatives.

PayPal is linked on the home page of EPO, just below the Site Features box.

And while we're thinking about this, let's not forget Gerry and the forum costs.

Many thanks to all who want to contribute, and if anyone thinks only large donations are appropriate, that is definitely NOT the case. Five or ten dollar donations would be very much appreciated.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 15:34:27 (EST)
From: Rupee again
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Just looking for a ballpark figure...
Message:
Dear Mr. JHB-

I'm hoping this might make a few modest donations easier to give by some of the viewers and posters on epo.

Let's say that 50 people contributed each month to keep epo going, and the forum as well.....

What figure would make both of them a 'break even' proposition?

$10 each.....20,30,40....?

I'm just trying to get a fix on what might be a good figure that would help things out.
I have no idea what the costs are for these sites, and would like to see them sustained easily...many hands make light lifting....

I do appreciate the work that is done here...

Thanks,... Rupee

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 17:15:33 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk
To: Rupee again
Subject: Email me
Message:
Rupee,

I'm sorry I'm not giving you a straight answer but I don't know who you are, and although you're probably a decent person, I'm a little wary of anonymous people pushing me for information. So email me and let's establish some mutual trust.

Having said that it's not hard to find out how much hosting a website costs. Multiply by five and add a bit for other expenses and you're probably not far off.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 00:49:45 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I noticed that as well (OT) (OT)
Message:
Hi Bill

Your email address doesn't work, BTW ;)

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 18:29:26 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Free and Easy Virus Checking
Message:
It's possible that you are in my hotmail account that's why you received it. I am not very savy about these things, but just wanted to warn everyone who may be in my address book....b)

I also find that the virus programs slow down my system, too.

Thanks for the advice.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 19:54:36 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Worry but don't worry
Message:
First off, the Hotmail virus checker definitely does not detect all known viruses and neither does Norton or McAffee. I've received several new email viruses and Hotboards didn't see them and neither did Norton. However, I didn't execute the files and several days later when I scanned them with Hotmail, they had finally cottoned on to the new virus and warned about it.

So NEW viruses are often unknown to any virus scanning software.

I receive about three to five virus emails a day and just bin them without even bothering to look at them now. There's plenty of the ''re'' virus emails going about and tons of others with all manner of attachments with many and varied file extensions and ever more high faluting texts in the email body.

You're completely safe though if you never open these email attachments. You only need to open attachments that you know are safe from a known sender who has verified that they've sent the attachment. You can always email them for verification to be extra sure.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:18:49 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Small Correction
Message:
Dave,

The Re: virus (can't remember its name) infects computers running a certain version of Outlook without the receiver opening the attachment. Microsoft have a patch to fix it the errant version of Outlook. So your reassurance wasn't completely accurate:-)

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 01:21:59 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Worry but don't worry
Message:
The problem with viruses is they replicate themselves to you from someone you may know, so you might get an email that says
Hi,

Could you take a quick look at this for me
thanks

And its from a trusted person - I don't think Cynthia was targeted - these things just spread via the outlook address book and other address books. I recomend F-Prot - very fast, and has found new viruses or warned me about them.

Ben

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 16:37:49 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Michael Dettmers Interview
Message:
A friend of mine had this chat with Michael Dettmers 14 months ago, and transcribed it. Michael has recently re-read this, made some minor changes, and approved it - so here it is:

Questions to Michael Dettmers - 2 December 2000

Q: What is purposefully hidden from premies and why?

MD: Well, the stuff that I’ve talked about - his drinking and pot smoking, that was pretty prevalent in the 70’s and 80’s. I don't know if that’s still the case. And his affairs with various women, and his long-standing affair with Monica Lewis.

Q: Why would he want to hide these things?

MD: Oh, well he would basically take the view that it’s his private life, his private business but in fact it’s because it’s inconsistent with the stand he’s taken in public vis-à-vis the premies, i.e. what it takes to lead a spiritual life or whatever, the ashrams for instance. He’s concerned that people will recognize that he’s acting in a very hypocritical manner.

Q: And what steps does he personally take to cover up information, or make sure that people don’t find out about it, which is rather the implication of what you’re saying?

MD: You create an inner circle. This is not unusual with many leaders, and you could certainly say that this applies to cults. You create an inner circle, and they somehow have to be sworn to secrecy about the inconsistencies, and that was what the whole “X-rating” scene was about. The belief system was that Maharaji can do anything because he’s the “Perfect Master.” He isn’t subject to the influences of the world. They presumably don’t have any effect on him as they do on everyone else. Hence, for supposedly our own benefit, he created the ashrams and all of those rules, but simultaneously he exempted himself because as the “Perfect Master” he’s above and beyond it – that’s what the Lotus is. So the rationale is, because most people wouldn’t understand, it’s best to keep it (his lifestyle) a secret, and that’s what the X-rating ritual was designed to ensure.

Q: And that was something that Maharaji instituted personally was it?

MD: Yea.

Q: Can you just say again the extent to which you witnessed this drinking and how it would have affected him? Any comments about that?

MD: Yes, well I was X-rated by Maharaji’s pilot when he was touring Canada with his mother in ’74. At that time, I wasn’t part of Maharaji’s inner circle, but I was integral to organizing the tour and that included arrangements for Marolyn who was not known to be his girlfriend at that time. But they were at the beginning stages of a relationship. Maharaji was unhappy that the tour had been organized for him to stay at ashrams. So, one of the first things I was asked to do was to see if we could organize his arrangements in hotels rather than in the ashrams, which I did. This made it easier for Maharaji to have some time with Marolyn, but to do all this organizing and to get things in place, I was X-rated so I could be around Maharaji. That’s when I first learned about Maharaji’s drinking. So Maharaji’s been drinking ever since ‘74 in my personal knowledge and, as I learned, even before then, and throughout the seventies and throughout the eighties and perhaps even today, I don’t know.

Q: So there’s nothing wrong with moderate drinking? I don’t think that anybody could be accused of that. So what makes this immoderate in your opinion?

MD: Well, first of all there was something wrong with it because Maharaji made it very clear that drinking was not something that the ashram premies could do, so one could argue then, why would he perpetuate these rules if they weren’t good for everyone? That’s the hypocrisy issue - number one. Number two, my experience is that Maharaji didn’t drink moderately. Now, I don’t have experience of alcoholism either personally or in my family so I didn’t have any reference point at the time to know if it was moderate or not, but it just seemed like he could polish off five or six cognacs in an evening and get a little bit inebriated, not dead-drunk. And sometimes he would get rip-roaring drunk. In any case, he drank every single day.

Q: Over a period of how many years?

MD: All the time I knew him, which was fifteen years.

Q: So apart from the obvious hypocrisy that you mentioned was there any other way that you perceived that to be corrupt or bizarre? Did it affect him negatively in other words?

MD: Well, it’s corrupt, yes. When he gets drunk, he becomes very negative. He becomes abusive in the sense that he verbally trashes certain people, whoever happened to be on his negative list for that day or that period, or he could be very rude in public at restaurants, just the kind of behavior that you would perhaps see in a person who is drunk and not in control.

Q: Any particular examples of that sort of abusive behavior?

MD: Oh yes, I remember that during the San Ysidro conference when, at the end of one of the days, we went out to dinner with all the people that were participating as well as Will Schutz and his associate, I forget her name. Yea, we were having a general conversation and, I think I’ve pretty much reported how he found the whole thing very confronting. I remember at one point Will’s associate made some comment, and he made some kind of drunken remark like, 'Listen sister - let me tell you something!' I can’t remember exactly what he said but she got up from the table and said, 'And let me tell you something! Nobody talks to me like - listen sister!' She could recognize that it was very abusive the way he spoke to her, and he was clearly drunk. And that’s a person who wasn’t a premie.

Q: What do you think Maharaji’s family make of it? Are they all just like premies?

MD: Maharaji’s family has grown up considerably since I was involved. When I was involved the kids were very young, early teens, now they’re adults in some cases. So with Marolyn, say...she went through a couple of phases. First there was the phase in which she was Durga Ji. So she worshipped Maharaji and people worshipped her because she was declared the ''Durga,” whatever the hell that means, right? And then that ended. I guess that ended around the end of the seventies or so.

My interpretation is that she started to get her life together. She went back to university to complete her degree at Pepperdine. I don’t know what Maharaji thought about that. At different times I think he tolerated it, at other times I don’t think he liked it. But that was a period during which she tried to develop her own life. But I didn’t have a lot of contact with her. Sometimes when we were on tour, a little bit, but most of the time she wasn’t on tour. The only thing I remember is that we used to get together, for an annual luncheon or something about a month before Maharaji’s birthday. She wanted to organize some kind of gift and she engaged me in that, but I didn’t have a whole lot of contact with her and very little with the kids. When Maharaji wasn’t on tour, I would meet with him in his office at the residence when I was around, maybe every other day or so. And then I would leave. So I had very little real exposure to the children, and certainly no dialogue or anything with them. So it’s not fair for me to say what they think or not.

Q: You said on the Forum 'I was a willing accomplice in a conspiracy of lies and hypocrisy for which I have no excuse'. What are the main lies and hypocrisies that you refer to and what, do you think, are the most serious of those in their consequences?

MD: Well, that was in response to Sir Dave’s question. You see, when I started talking about the drinking and the smoking pot, Sir Dave asked a very reasonable question which was, “How was all this kept a secret?” That’s when I talked about the “X-rating.” His next question was, “How do you feel about yourself being a perpetuator of that?” and that was my response. When I look back and realize that was what was going on, that’s all I can say that’s honest about it. At the time, we were all serving Maharaji, and we had some kind of story about why it was OK for him to do whatever he wanted to do and not OK for us, and this was just a way of protecting his privacy. So that was the rationale then. When I look back at the whole thing with a great deal of disgust, I have to say, of course, I was foolish to have ever been a part of something like that.

Q: Can you tell me how you perceive fear to be a dynamic around Maharaji and if he is intimidating? A lot of people have said he’s intimidating. How does fear play role around him and in his work, if this is the case?
MD: It’s a game in which he holds all the power. Obviously you’re only afraid if you feel you have something to lose and the people around Maharaji have many things to lose, given the world that they live in. One is their position. It’s more a question of 'What happens to me if I’m not in this position?' A lot of these people are not thinking about a life without Maharaji, and can’t envision one without Maharaji. So then, what happens to people that stay in the cult but who are no longer around the master? They always feel like they’ve blown it, like they’ve blown some opportunity. So there’s the fear of blowing the opportunity, the fear of displeasing Maharaji, the fear of losing position, the fear of uncertainty ('what’s going to happen to me? What am I going to become, what will people think?') The people around Maharaji are accorded a great deal of respect by premies who would like to be in that position, and think that these people around Maharaji have something to say, or some unique story - a darshan story or whatever. And, 'what happens if I’m no longer in that position?' They see what happens to other people who get - quote 'dismissed'. They’re shunned. It’s a cult kind of behavior. Nobody wants to be shunned, of being ostracized from the community because the vortex of the community is Maharaji. So if you get outside of that vortex it feels as if you’re being shunned. That’s another form of fear. Maharaji plays on that, he’s aware of that. I think he likes to keep people in a state of uncertainty. It even rubs off on the kids.

I remember one of the people who did the laundry at the residence was shattered because one of Maharaji’s kids said to her, 'You know, I could get you fired if I wanted to'. And the interesting thing is that the person who did the laundry actually knew that that was true. And so it’s a kind of attitude that exists. I don’t know if that answers the question?

Q: Yes, and also how would that fear come across say, in the context of Knowledge and the Master - in the philosophy rather than so much around the house or whatever?

MD: Maharaji used to talk all the time about how people were terrified of Shri Maharaji - that he was such an imposing figure. And I think even Maharaji used to fancy himself as being far more compassionate compared to the image he had of his own father who, I think, in stature was bigger than him, and who was very demanding. So sometimes I think Maharaji saw him as a kind of role model, as something that is needed in a leader, that you really have to be on top of people in a sense. And somehow, he felt that he wasn’t like that - he felt he was more compassionate - and any time something happened to him that he didn’t like, then he would feel like he should have been more like Shri Maharaji. I don’t know if it’s the culture of all gurus, it could very well be, but it was certainly part of his own upbringing. Shri Maharaji was a very intimidating character.

Q: What are his good points and how do they balance with his faults? Because one would expect such a Master to be exemplary in kindness and consideration.

MD: The thing is that he was often very kind to me. He accorded me, in general, a great deal of respect and a great deal of autonomy. He certainly gave me gifts and he engaged with me in a more personal way than with a lot of people. I went out to dinner with him lots of times, we would sit together, share a meal, drink some wine. So I didn’t personally find him intimidating but I’m talking about a lot of people around the residence. I was part of the inner circle, but I also had my own autonomous realm. I wasn’t part of the residence situation. That’s where I saw a great deal of demeaning and intimidating behavior.

Q: How was Maharaji when he was stoned? Was he a different person?

MD: No, just like everyone else, laughing at jokes. Sometimes he’d put on - when we’d get stoned - not only “Frampton Comes Alive” but sometimes he’d put on some comics, and everybody would be howling with laughter. It was very funny. I mean, let’s face it, when you get stoned, things do look funny, and he would fully enjoy that.

Q: Apparently Shri Hans was a great smoker, a “Ganja” smoker. Charananad or somebody said that, I believe.

MD: I would certainly think so. Whenever I went to India, especially around Holi, we would all drink “Bhang” which is a kind of “Lassi” drink laced with a lot of hashish, or have these er...I forget what they’re called, but they were like - little cookies or something filled with hashish and, you’d get completely ripped.

Q: How do you think Maharaji could tell us in the ashram to live so austerely? What was his purpose? And did he care for us? Did he know about us? Did he know what was going on? We were told to give up everything.

MD: People liked to believe that Maharaji is all-knowing and that he knows what each person is thinking and feeling, and I think that’s just a pure projection. He hasn’t got a clue and doesn’t care – doesn’t really care that much about people, in my view, in general. But the ashrams were basically an extension of how things were done in India, and the general premise is that it’s a hierarchy. So, some people say that I lived very well. But, I was dealing with financial and legal affairs, and meeting with lots of lawyers and accountants and people who were not premies. Sure, I didn’t do that out of an ashram. How could I do that kind of work out of an ashram? I had an office and a house in Miami, but I didn’t set the standard.

If you go to the ashram in India, you’ll see that, when Sampuranand was the National Organizer, he had his own house with his own cook and houseboy and whatnot. So he was accorded certain privileges, whether it’s drinking or smoking. In fact, he did smoke a lot and that’s why he had a couple of heart attacks and had to quit. In any case, he was in a position of responsibility and that’s the kind of privilege that came with it. So that same kind of status was accorded me in the West. So what I’m saying is that I didn’t set any standard here, this was how things were done.

Q: What I’m really driving at is, what was Maharaji’s attitude towards us? What did he really mean for us when he made such elaborate arrangements for us to be in ashrams? He said that if you were really truly dedicated you had to live in the ashram. What was that all about? Was it a mistake? Some people say that he said it was a mistake to do that.

MD: Well, I certainly think it was a mistake.

Q: What did he think?

MD: I don’t think he thought it was a mistake because he brought them back with a vengeance in 1976.

Q: But he’s done away with them now though.

MD: Yes, at first he thought it was a mistake to do away with them but then finally they went away because they simply couldn’t be sustained financially and all the responsibility that was implied. I’ve already talked about that.

Q: Did he really believe in the philosophy that he was prescribing? Was his heart in it or was it just a sort of 'Oh Well this is what happened in India and we’ll just do it' type decision? Did he care?

MD: Oh no, no. I relate more to his meetings with instructors - which is ultimately what the ashrams became. They became, not so much a place, but standards applied to people who were instructors, and even as late as ‘85 he was still very strict about being vegetarian and abstaining from sex. He was very strict about that and absolutely believed in it.

Q: But didn’t follow any of that himself?

MD: Oh no, of course not.

Q: Of course not?

MD: No, I’m saying “of course not” because that’s what I’ve been trying to make clear. As the Perfect Master, as Sat guru, he considered himself to be above and beyond all of that.

Q: You don’t think that he would have had any remorse for putting people through so much?

MD: None. I don’t believe that Maharaji has any remorse about anything. I think he feels like everything he’s doing, he’s doing out of … See, to get into the mindset of Maharaji, in my opinion, he truly believes that he is whatever he means by Perfect Master, the Sat guru, the one who is bringing enlightenment or whatever he thinks that Knowledge is. I think he believes that. I don’t think he’s playing a game. And he’s adopted a certain leadership style that allows him to think that whatever he’s doing, it’s for people’s benefit. Now, I don’t know if that’s what he thinks today, but certainly when I was around that’s what he believed. The point I’m getting at is that he doesn’t have any remorse that I’ve ever seen. He always feels like people just don’t understand and are ungrateful.

Q: Premies would say that his gift of Knowledge is a wonderful thing and that justifies the way things are now i.e. him carrying on propagating Knowledge. Do you think that is valid? Do you think that the fact that he gives people Knowledge justifies his behavior or his role, or is necessary?

MD: It depends on what you think Knowledge is. To me the only thing Maharaji is offering anybody - I don’t care what you call it - is devotion. And I don’t even want to use that in a reverential sense. It’s people worshipping him, that's what he wants. That’s what he truly believes is the only way to experience whatever the hell he’s calling “Knowledge.” And he’s in a bit of a dilemma in some respects you see, because if he was really interested in offering people freedom or allowing them to experience a better quality of life, he would create an environment in which people were totally free - he would find a way for them to actually learn to live more consciously - in fulfillment. But he’s not doing that. That to me would be one way to interpret what Knowledge is, but what he is perpetuating is dependence. What he is perpetuating ultimately is that, the way you experience Knowledge is through devotion, through loving him, through surrender of some kind. Now, it’s kind of hard to sell that today so he may have to whitewash it, but if he whitewashes it, it dooms him to irrelevance. He’s kind of doomed either way because I don’t believe the world is interested in gurus, and worship and surrender to another human being, especially to a human being who is so flawed as he is. And that’s why all these stories of the hypocrisy and the lies and the deceit are so devastating. And that’s why it is necessary that he be exposed in this way because he’s not worthy of surrender.

Q: You’re talking about trust here?

MD: Yes, trust as well. I mean you can trust another human being without having to surrender to them. But that’s really what he is offering and if you listen to what he has to say - and I haven’t followed him at all in the last ten or twelve years or whatever - but I do read the Forum and people post excerpts and you can see this recurring theme. It’s the same stuff and I don’t care what words you use. it’s about surrender to the Master. So basically that’s to me what he calls Knowledge.

Q: Do you think that he needs his boats, planes and wealth to spread Knowledge or is there some other reason why he has those things?
MD: There used to be an argument that a plane would be a useful tool for his travels, and I believed that at the time, and that’s why I put a lot of effort into securing a Lear 55. For the work that he’s doing - if you want to even call it that -anything beyond that makes no sense on any level, other than gratifying his own insatiable desire. So I think it’s a terrible misuse of resources. If this guy says he’s here on a specific mission and certain resources are available to him, the way that he uses those resources for his own personal pleasure and aggrandizement is disgusting, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Knowledge. It has everything to do with him having an image of himself as worthy of these things. But I don’t believe for a second that they have anything to do with Knowledge or his so-called mission. It’s a sham.

Q: Premies have often said in the past, when he’s been criticized for his affluence and luxurious lifestyle, that he puts up with a lot of inconvenience and hardship to spread Knowledge and that a little luxury is nothing. What would you say to that?

MD: That is complete bullshit - complete bullshit. He puts up with no hardship whatever. I mean - by what standard? I remember when we didn’t have any aircraft back in ‘77 and he traveled with his family to a big program in Rome in First Class on SAS, Scandinavian airlines. He practically had the whole First Class section of this 747 and I remember he came back to my seat and said, 'This is the worst experience I have ever had in my life'. The point being that this was justification for securing a private jet because he was putting up with the indignity of having to use a public washroom.

Maharaji claims that he’s here for humanity but he has this almost antiseptic phobia about even coming in contact with other human beings. It’s strange. Everything has to be prepared especially for him. So by what standard? Maharaji travels in the highest standard that anyone can travel. I understand that he’s purchased a G5. I know the corporate aviation business and that is the best corporate jet there is in the world. That’s what he travels in - and his corporate jets are outfitted better than any other corporate jets and, because he flies them, they also have the latest avionics. So Maharaji has the best of everything that the world has to offer, and he continues to aspire to the best of everything. So what hardships are we talking about? This guy, as far as I’m concerned, does shit when it comes to really rolling up your sleeves to do the work. But it’s not about the work – it’s just about him.

Q: I know many premies who seem to love and respect Maharaji and accept all his behaviors no matter really what he does - however so-called “immoral” or inappropriate. Do you think these people have any responsibility to question this?

MD: Let’s be clear about this question of morality. I don’t personally have a problem with anyone who drinks or gets stoned or smokes. His behavior is hypocritical because it contradicted what he preached for so long. That’s where it becomes an ethical dilemma. The second thing is when a person drinks to excess and, as a consequence, doesn’t exercise good judgment.

Q: What responsibility do premies have to analyze Maharaji’s behavior and come clean on it? Do you think people should come forward? Do you think people are not acting integrally?

MD: I think that if there are people who were around Maharaji and can substantiate, in their own words, the kind of behavior that I’ve reported, that would be useful. If they felt comfortable to do so, and I realize that that may take a little bit of doing, I would encouragement them to do so. Does that get the core of your question?

Q: Well, I suppose that what I’m driving at is that premies obviously believe that Maharaji is a good force in the world, and they support him because of their experience of Knowledge, which let’s face it now doesn’t involve so many unreasonable demands. They don’t come into contact with the hypocrisy, because Maharaji doesn’t ask them to give anything up. He just tells them to practice. There is some encouragement to give money – but that’s about it. Do think that Knowledge is good? Do you think that it might be taught by somebody else? Perhaps that is the valuable part of the package and Knowledge could be taught without him? Without the devotion in other words.

MD: In my opinion the answer is yes. But then Maharaji wouldn’t call that Knowledge. That’s why he’s made it very clear that it’s his Knowledge and this is the method by which you experience it. My opinion is that you don’t experience growth in consciousness by surrendering to someone else. It’s a skill - you learn to live life consciously. So it’s not a question of just giving people some techniques. I don’t think anybody can personally benefit just by having some techniques. My own experience of learning, in general, is that it takes time and practice, that there are some elements that are needed to learn. This is just my opinion. You need a certain structure, you need certain practices, you need certain tools, and you need certain coaching. So I’ll give you a mundane example. I wanted to attain better health and, for me, that meant to exercise. I’m the kind of person, and not everyone is like this, but I can’t exercise on my own. I may have the best intention to exercise, and I may get up in the morning fully intending to exercise, but I’ll go down to my office and I’ll start working on the computer and, before I know it, I’ll get so absorbed that the time I have allocated for exercise has come and gone. So that doesn't work for me. I need a structure - so what structure? I join a gym. And the gym has certain tools, certain equipment and the coach has certain practices (exercises) that I engage with in a certain routine and in the process of doing this recurrently over time, I develop a degree of confidence and experience. That’s just a metaphor, an analogy for what I’m talking about.

So, let’s say the purpose of Knowledge is to grow in consciousness, to grow in truly expanding your potential. I mean people use different words for what it means to increase your capacity to experience love. Then I would say that, in as much as that is not the norm in society then there’s something to be learned. So there may be a role for some teachers in that process, and there may be a role for some structure. There may be ways to connect an inner experience with the pragmatics of living. And so, you may invent, not just practices for meditation, if that’s one of the practices, but you may also want to take a look at how a person is living their life, and what are the kind of issues that they confront that they claim are preventing them from experiencing love or beauty consistently. Maybe it has to do with certain ways they’re living. So there’s ways to discover what’s incoherent between this beautiful experience and how you live, and if you learn to deal with some of those issues, you may develop some consistency. But the purpose of learning is always to free the person to expand their potential.

Q: Yes, you see the thing is that I know what premies are now saying – which is that they see Maharaji as just being somebody who just goes around giving Knowledge to people and giving them meditation techniques. Basically he has become a meditation teacher to the general public that come now. And so they say 'Well, what’s wrong with that? What is wrong with that? He’s not making people live in ashrams, he’s not telling them to do this, that and the other. He’s just showing people how to meditate. Nobody else is doing it. What’s wrong with that?'

MD: What do you mean nobody else is doing it?

Q: Well that’s what they say. That’s the question. What’s wrong with that?

MD: One could maybe argue that there’s nothing wrong with that except that there are a lot of people who feel that they’ve been deceived by him, and therefore he isn’t trustworthy. People may think that he’s doing it for their benefit, but at the end of the day, people will recognize that it’s all for his benefit. People are saying, 'you can believe what you want to believe and we’ll just tell you what our experience is.' And at the end of the day, I don’t think that you can do more than that. Point people to an alternative and say, “this is a trip that produces dependence.” No matter how this thing is cloaked, it’s a cult. It has a certain belief system. In Maharaji’s world, Knowledge is about gratitude to the master, which is just a different word for devotion. That’s what it’s all about.

Maharaji used to say 'Go and search the whole world, and if you find this Knowledge fine, and if you don’t, come back to me, I’ll be here.' That was kind of a standard line, I don’t know if it’s still used or not. But the premise is that there’s this thing called ”Truth,” and somebody has exclusivity over it. If you subscribe to the belief that there is such a thing as Truth with a capital “T” and if you think you’ve found it, the only way you can know if you’ve found it, in a way, is to give yourself completely to it. And in the Maharaji game, when you give yourself completely to it, you’re stuck because you get caught up in the cult. You get caught up in the belief, you get caught up in the self-reinforcing game, and then it looks like there’s no other alternative. But how could you possibly know? Because you’ve cut yourself off from the process of exploring - of being open.

So I think the issue comes down to a belief system that is endemic to our culture. You can trace it to the Greeks and their premise that there’s an inner self and that inner self can get to know the Truth and that’s the highest goal to which one can aspire. That’s deeply ingrained in our culture. I don’t think Maharaji understands these things but he’s capitalizing on that fundamental, nonetheless. I think that what we have to do is get away from the idea that there is a so-called “Truth” and, instead, realize that life is an unfolding wonder and that it’s a process of discovery. When you get yourself caught up in a belief system, in a cult of this kind that is so self-referencing, you lose all perspective of that. So the very thing that brought people to seek some kind of understanding, gets destroyed. And then you get into this thing of “there’s no alternative to Maharaji.” I mean there’s a whole goddamn world out there! There’s amazing opportunity and wonder and whatnot.

Q: Jagdeo - is he a pedophile?

MD: As far as I’m concerned he is. I’ve had many conversations with Susan; her story is well documented. I absolutely believe everything she said and that is clearly the behavior of a pedophile.

Q: What should have happened in your opinion?

MD: I’ve already made that very clear. He should have been interviewed personally by Maharaji. I think it’s an absolute sham for Élan Vital to suggest that the appropriate person to interview Jagdeo was the National Organizer of India, a guy named Deepak. He should have been interviewed by Maharaji. These instructors have a lot more fear of Maharaji than they do of any organizer. They definitely were made instructors by Maharaji, and not made instructors by him. I believe that if Maharaji had taken this seriously, had sat Jagdeo down and gotten the facts, he could have acted. What should he have done? He should have publicly defrocked him. He should have turned him over to suffer the legal consequences. He should have made a public apology to everyone that had anything to do with him, making it clear that he is embarrassed and ashamed that such behavior could have happened by one of his mahatmas. He should have sought out the victims, personally apologized to them, and offered some form of restitution.

Q: So what does this tell us about Maharaji?

MD: It tells what I said - that he’s a coward, that he isn’t a leader whatsoever, that he is not interested in doing the right thing, and that he is only interested in covering his ass. It tells us that he lives in fear, that he isn’t a person worthy of respect, never mind love and devotion.

Q: Why are these things not a “Lila?” (Indian term meaning “Divine play')

MD: Well, what is “Lila?” Lila is just a particular interpretation about a certain reality. So you have to look at the whole package - there is a Perfect Master who manifests in human form but who is above and beyond the frailties of humanity and, therefore, all of this life is just an illusion that’s his to play with. So, if you believe that, then I guess it is a Lila. The question is, why would any sane person believe that?

Q: What are Maharaji’s weaknesses then - that contradict the notion of him being a Perfect Master?

MD: Well, he’s a coward - just look at the Jagdeo situation. Another weakness - how about alcohol? The guy’s an alcoholic and that severely limits his ability to exercise good judgment. He can’t possibly be trusted.

Q: How can he be a pilot and be an alcoholic? Aren’t there very rigid rules?

MD: Because, as people have pointed out who understand this, he plays the game.

Q: i.e. he doesn’t drink when he flies?

MD: Well no he doesn’t just not drink when he flies. I think there’s a particular hour by which time a person who’s going to be flying the next day has to stop drinking. So he plays the game. And, as several people have pointed out who have experience with alcoholism, it’s quite normal for people to limit their drinking to specific times. But I’ve also pointed out that he didn’t apply that same rigor to driving. He has driven several times that I know of when he was drunk. Purely amazing that he didn’t have an accident or... you know the story that I posted on the Forum, right?

This was sometime in the mid 80’s. Maharaji and his family were staying in a hotel in Palm Beach. That evening everyone went out to dinner. By everyone I mean Maharaji, Marolyn, the kids, I was there, one of the drivers, and security person. We were having dinner at a very posh restaurant and a group of 3 or 4 men came in and sat at a table next to us. Actually, it was behind me so I didn’t actually see them, but Maharaji got very upset because he thought Marolyn was flirting with one of the guys, or one of the guys was ogling her. Anyway, something was going on and Maharaji got really pissed. We hadn’t finished the meal yet, but he had had several drinks and he was pretty drunk and he just got really upset and he immediately demanded that we leave the restaurant. Everyone got up and left and he brushed aside his driver and took the wheel with his wife and kids in the car. I got in the car behind and watched as Maharaji’s car swerved from side to side on the road and almost crashed into another car. It didn’t happen fortunately for him. Perhaps, unfortunately for all of us, he wasn’t arrested. That would have been a useful lesson.

Q: Was he ever drunk giving satsang?

MD: No, not that I’m aware of. In fact, I’m sure he wasn’t.

Q: So he did make the distinction between speaking from a sober place and being drunk as a pastime.

MD: Yes.

Q: Does Maharaji ever blame others for mistakes that are clearly his?

MD: All the time. He does not take responsibility for any of his decisions. He always looks for someone to blame if things don’t go the way that he would like them to go. And from what I’ve learned, that is typical alcoholic behavior.

Q: Any other weaknesses?

MD: Apparently for blondes! I don’t know if that’s a weakness that’s unique to Maharaji!

Q: Is this rumor about his mistress Monica true?

MD: The thing is, I left before that thing really blossomed. However, I know that it’s true.

Q: How?

MD: Well, how does one know? I wasn’t in the bedroom with them! But I know that there were other women before Monica so let’s put it this way, what I do know is that Maharaji has definitely had affairs. It appears that the one with Monica is more than an affair, it’s been a long-term relationship because, from what I gather, it still exists. But what I’m saying is that I don’t know much about Monica because when this thing began, I was leaving.

Q: Do you think that Maharaji has any self-doubt?

MD: Well, I would suspect strongly that alcoholic behavior is a form of self-doubt.

Q: You said that Maharaji will never budge from his belief that he is the Perfect Master and the Living Lord, etc. You said that there is a chink in his armor and that is, that his fear and arrogance have warped his character. Can you explain what you mean by that?

MD: When someone believes that they own or give Truth, that kind of absolutism creates arrogance and blindness to the need for life-long learning. A person who is not arrogant will admit his mistakes and will engage in open dialogue with people. Maharaji will not engage in open dialogue because for him there is nothing to discuss. He has the truth and either you accept it or you don’t. End of story.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 10:08:02 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: On EPO now
Message:

[ M. Dettmers Interview ]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 12:09:28 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Linked from Home Page now
Message:
Thanks, J-M - you beat me to it! I've added a link to the Dettmers reference on the home page.

John.

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 22:46:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Thanks for that, whoever you are [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 21:41:08 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: wow, Thanks Michael Dettmers [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 20:33:23 (EST)
From: PatD
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: Michael Dettmers Interview
Message:
Sorry to mix 2 threads together,but to my mind the med. can't be separated from the man.

MD: Yes, well I was X-rated by Maharaji’s pilot when he was touring Canada with his mother in ’74

What was it MD that made you believe this man was God? At the time I was of the same mind based on the meds.

There won't be a Nuremburg Tribunal about all this,you lucky bastard,so I'm pleased you can be so frank.

When you feel yourself able to open up the can of worms about how Rawat inc. manifests itself in the material world......

Thanks MD....from a fellow shaftee.

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 19:23:10 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: John, ***BEST** of course?
Message:
This is great. Michael's comments all in one place, and much more accessible to the way they are now on EPO, or at least this is a great summary to the more specific things Michael has said.

John, can this go on EPO? Definitely too good to loose.

Thanks to Michael, to whoever did the interview, whoever transcribed it, and to Mike for posting it!

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 17:24:10 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Thanks Mike F and Michael D. Rivetting!
Message:
The picture that emerges of Rawat simply confirms for me my own hunches: that he is a silly, greedy little man who leads a shallow and unexamined life because he is too fearful and arrogant to do so.
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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 18:30:49 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Thanks Mike F and Michael D. Rivetting!
Message:
I add my thanks, too. I wouldn't even go so far as to call m a man, though, Pat.

No courage.

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 16:20:46 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Calling Kelly
Message:
Kelly,
Some exciting news regarding non toxic cancer treatment.
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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 10:44:58 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Calling Kelly
Message:
Hi Vicki,
just spotted your message, I haven't visited for a few days. Could you e-mail the information. I'm also currently investigating a couple of non-toxic treatments, lets share the info.
love Karen
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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 17:40:44 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Kelly
Subject: P.S.
Message:
I can't find your e-mail address anywhere in my records so I'm hoping to hear from you.
Thanks
Karen
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Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2002 at 09:46:42 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: P.S.
Message:
Kelly,
Sent you the info. Let me know if my e-mail doesn't go through.
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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 12:53:33 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: EV's Statistics on EPO
Message:
Here's the draft of a new page on EV's 'statistics'.
[ EV's propagation reports ]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:55:03 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Moved the new page, and comments
Message:
Here's the new URL.

And some comments:

1/ In spite of the hundreds of aspirants who've 'received knowledge' in the past decades in the main countries, the figures of active premies is constantly decreasing.
The mailing list in France for instance is about 1/3rd of what it was 10 years before, and half of what it was 5 years before february 2000!

2/ The figures show how some hundreds of people coming more or less regularly to 'attend events' become thousands at the end of the month!

3/ EV and Rawat keep track of everything: there are more figures, showing how many videos are borrowed and by whom, and how aspirants are (unknowingly, and in several places illegally) listed and monitored.
[ EV's 'propogation' report ... ]

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 12:10:08 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: epowebmaster@yahoo.co.uk
To: All
Subject: New White Pages Entries
Message:
There are new White Pages entries on EPO for the following:-

Jonathan Carr (Jackie)
Thomas Hofmann
Nona Olivia (formerly Vickers)
Steve Mueller
Rui Sant'Anna

Also, Nancy McCoy has updated her entry.

If you remember these people send them an email!

If you haven't put your own details up and don't mind going public, click on the link above.

John.

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 13:49:37 (EST)
From: David Simpkiss
Email: worldwide_linkup@hotmail.com
To: JHB
Subject: Re: New White Pages Entries
Message:
Just had a look and my email address is wrong. Could you please change it to the one on this post. i.e.

worldwide_linkup@hotmail.com

Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 07:10:58 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: To Nottm Bunny & anyone else
Message:
I don't know who Nottm Bunny is but here's my reply to their post on the Emergency Forum 8.

I moved to Stoke ashram from Rugby ashram around Autumn 1973. It could have been late Summer, I can't be sure. A few other premies moved up from Rugby ashram to Stoke ashram around the same time. We were sent there, to that cold and distant outpost from the heart of the Midlands' premie empire in Rugby. I seem to remember that most of the premies who came with me from Rugby seemed to leave Stoke ashram after a while, except two, who later got married.

When I arrived in Stoke, Phil Tonkin was the ashram sec and Lyn was the housemother. Geff Sales was 'the driver' and I got on well with him and we remained friends long after I left the ashram. I remember Lyn always held my hand when we talked alone and I found her very endearing.

I got some temporary jobs in pot banks carting plates around and also one job in Twyfords where they make the toilets. I worked in an office there. I had two full time jobs in the two years I was there. I worked in the City General Hospital as a theatre porter carrying unconscious patients and amputated limbs around and later at Diamond Refractories (in Etruria Vale) in their sales office. I know all about 'kiln furnature' now. While I was at the City General, I watched Bruce Forsyth's daughter have a boob job.

Phil Tonkin left and George Scullian became the new ashram sec. Then the ashram was dissolved and most of us moved to Wolverhampton ashram where we had another Lynne as ashram sec. This Lynne was given full authority on whether the ashram remained or was dissolved and one night, she lit a candle and said to Goo Maraji, 'If you want us to close down Wolverhampton ashram, make this candle go out.'

The candle went out and so we all left our jobs and traipsed off to Rugby ashram, which was like an old home-from-home to me. However, I didn't get on with this other Lynne (who had become ashram sec there too) and so it became impossible for us to live under the same roof and I left the ashram and went to live in Coventry, which was my home town. Nothing against Lynne - she was ashram sec and I just didn't fit in.

So did you ever visit Stoke ashram after the summer of 1973?

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 07:41:00 (EST)
From: Nottm Bunny
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: To Dave
Message:
Hi Dave,

My main contact with Stoke Ashram was July 73 till around Sept/Oct 73 so it may be possible that we missed each other. I remember Phil and Geoff as well as Lyn and I also remember Dot and Anth coming to Satsang. There were some real characters at Stoke though I don't remember everybody's name - I'm better with faces.

Though I have not come out publicly I am known to several people on this forum and I will probably email you directly.

Warm regards,

Bunny

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 04:45:51 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Article on the Krsnas
Message:
The demise of a cult. A recent article.
[ Bye bye Hare Krsna ]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 02:54:14 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: notice how at least....
Message:
they get ahead of the curve and founded a 250,000 dollar a year dedicated effort to reahc out to, help, get counseling for, and make restitution to, the victims?

and still this suit is going forward?

and contrast that with the crocodile tears, the lawyering, the code of silence and denial being exhibited by the goons around The Fat One, in the Jagdeo matter.
Ya know--it would seem that if we want satisfaction on seeing Jagdeo put where he belongs, on getti restitution for Abi and Susan and all the others who remain privately tormented , looks to me like the thing to do is hire this same formidably effective attorney in Dallas, who has been so successful at prosecuting the Roman Catholic Church and the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, both child abuse and molestation cases.

He might agree to take our case on contingency. We all know where the deep pockets in this issue lie.

Seems this fellow knows how to get justice.

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 09:21:01 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Article on the Krsnas
Message:
Thanks Jethro.

About 8 months ago I posted information on the forum regarding the child abuse court cases against the Krishnas and the potential to bring down their cult because of the large sums of money being sought in compensation. I was suggesting to Susan and Abi and any other people affected by Jagdeo's pedophilia to take note and that a similar lawsuit could be the Kult's achilles heel.

Susan or Abi if you are reading this are you proceeding with a lawsuit? I'm certain that there are lawyers who would take this case on without money up-front and would take a percentage of the settlement as payment.

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Date: Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 20:59:42 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: All
Subject: If it all goes pear-shaped again
Message:
and this forum goes down or is attacked by aliens, use the above linked Emergency Forum 8. I'll leave it there so please bookmark it, just in case.
[ Emergency Forum 8 ]
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Date: Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 21:24:17 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Thanks Dave
Message:
I was really impressed to see how fast that forum went up. Gee, some of you guys move quickly.

Interesting to know how dependant all the fora are on the status of Hotboards. Was that just a routine check or a crash?

Again, thanks for getting it together so fast.

cheers,

deborah

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 15:45:18 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Seconded. All eggs in one Hotboards basket ...
Message:
Seconded. All the eggs in one Hotboards basket ...

make for one big nihilist omelette when Hotboards goes down.

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 17:45:06 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ha ha...cute pun cq [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 20:52:04 (EST)
From: health fan
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Consumer Health Article
Message:
We, or someone we know, are certain to be affected by one or other of the illnesses dscribed by Donald Scott below. His wisdom and insight into the physical human condidtion has been of great inspiration to me and my family. Hope you enjoy, and find something to share with friends or family that may help them overcome any suffering they may have endured unnecessarily.

THE LINKING PATHOGEN IN NEURO-SYSTEMIC DISEASES: CHRONIC FATIGUE, ALZHEIMER'S, PARKINSON'S & MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS by: Scott, Donald W., M.Sc. Donald Scott is a retired high school teacher and university professor who is currently president of the Common Cause Medical Research Foundation and adjunct professor of the Institute of Molecular Medicine. He has extensively researched neurosystemic degenerative diseases over the past five years and has authored many documents on the relationship between degenerative diseases and a pathogenic mycoplasma called Mycoplasma fermentans. His research is based upon solid government evidence. Donald Scott is a veteran of WWII and was awarded the North Atlantic Star, the Burma Star with Clasp, the 1939-1945 Volunteer Service Medal and the Victory Medal. I - THE MYCOPLASMA A COMMON PATHOGENIC MYCOPLASMA There are 200 species of mycoplasmas. Most are innocuous and do no harm; only four or five are pathogenic. The Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus strain) probably comes from the nucleus of the brucellosis bacteria. This disease agent is not a bacteria, and not a virus; it is a mutated form of the brucellosis bacteria, mutated with a visna virus, from which the mycoplasma, is extracted. Dr. Maurice Hilleman, chief virologist for the pharmaceutical company of Merck, Sharp and Dohme, stated that this disease agent is now carried by everybody in North America and possibly most people throughout the world. The mycoplasma used to be very innocuous. Only one person out of 500,000 would get multiple sclerosis; one out of 300,000 would develop Alzheimer's; one out of 1,000,000 would develop Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Before the early 1980's, nobody ever died of AIDS because it didn't exist. The mycoplasma is also the disease agent in AIDS, and I have all the documentation to prove it. BIOWARFARE RESEARCH Between 1942 and the present time, biological warfare research has resulted in a more deadly and infectious form of the mycoplasma. They extracted this mycoplasma from the brucellosis bacteria, weaponized it and actually reduced the disease to a crystalline form. According to Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo, one of America's top, top researchers, this disease agent, the mycoplasma, causes among other things, AIDS, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple sclerosis, Wegener's disease, Parkinson's disease, Crohn's colitis, Type I diabetes, and collagen-vascular diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and Alzheimer's.

The mycoplasma enters into the individual cells of the body depending upon your genetic predisposition. You may develop neurological diseases if the pathogen destroys certain cells in your brain, or you may develop Crohn's colitis if the pathogen invades and destroys cells in the lower bowel. Once it gets into the cell, it can lie there doing nothing sometimes for 10, 20 or 30 years, but if a trauma occurs like an accident, or a vaccination that doesn't take, the mycoplasma can become triggered. Because it is only the DNA particle of the bacteria, it doesn't have any organelles to process its own nutrients, so it grows by uptaking preformed sterols from its host cell, literally kills the cell, and the cell ruptures and what is left gets dumped into the blood stream. DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE My conclusions are entirely based upon official documents: 80% are United States or Canadian official government documents, and 20% are articles from peer-reviewed journals, such as the Journal of the American Medical Association, The New England Journal of Medicine, and The Canadian Medical Association Journal. The journal articles and government documents complement each other. We also have a document from Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo which names the mycoplasma as a cause of cancer. Dr. Charles Engel who is with the National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland, stated at an NIH meeting on February 7, 2000, 'I am now of the view that the probable cause of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and fibromyalgia is the mycoplasma'. II - CREATION OF THE MYCOPLASMA MYCOPLASMA PATENT Many doctors don't know about this mycoplasma because it was developed by the U.S. military in biological warfare experimentation, and it was not made public. This pathogenic mycoplasma disease agent was patented by the United States military by Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo, who was the top researcher for the military biological warfare research facility. I have the documented patent from the U.S. patent office. A LABORATORY-CREATED PATHOGEN BY THE U.S. MILITARY Researchers in the United States, Canada and Britain were doing biowarfare research with the brucellosis bacteria as well as with a number of other disease agents. From its inception, the biowarfare program was characterized by continuing in-depth review and participation by the most eminent scientists, medical consultants, industrial experts and government officials, and it was top secret. The U.S. Public Health Service also closely followed the progress of biological warfare research and development from the very start of the program, and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), and the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in the United States were working with the military in weaponizing these diseases. These are diseases which have existed for thousands of years, but they have been weaponized which means they were made more contagious and more effective. And they are spreading. A program developed by the CIA and NIH to develop a deadly lethal pathogen for which humanity had no natural immunity (AIDS) was disguised as a war on cancer and was part of MKNAOMI (ref. Special Virus Cancer Program: Progress Report 8, prepared by National Cancer Institute, Viral Oncology, Etiology Area, July, 1971 and submitted to NIH Annual Report in May, 1971 and updated July, 1971). COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM Many members of the Senate and House of Represent-atives do not know what has been going on. For example, the US Senate Committee on Government Reform had searched the archives in Washington and other places for the document titled The Special Virus Cancer Program: Progress Report No.8 mentioned above and couldn't find it. Somehow they heard I had it, called me and asked me to mail it to them. Imagine. A retired school teacher being called by the United States Senate and asked for one of their secret documents! The United States Senate through their government reform committee is trying to stop this type of government research. BIOLOGICAL WARFARE RESEARCH AGREEMENT All the countries at war were experimenting with biological weapons. In 1942, the governments of the United States, Canada and Great Britain entered into a secret agreement to create two types of biological weapons (one that would kill and one that was disabling) for use in the war against Germany and Japan, who were also developing biological weapons. They primarily focused on brucellosis, and they began to weaponize the brucellosis bacteria.

CRYSTALLINE BRUCELLOSIS In a genuine U.S. Senate Study unclassified on February 24, 1977, the title page of this government record reports that George Merck, of the pharmaceutical company, Merck, Sharp and Dohme (which now makes cures for diseases they at one time created), in 1946, reported to the Secretary of War in the United States that his researchers had produced in isolation for the first time, a crystalline bacterial toxin extracted from brucellosis bacteria. The bacterial toxin could be removed in crystalline form and delivered by other vectors (in nature they are delivered within the bacteria). But the factor that is working in the brucellosis is the mycoplasma. Brucellosis is a disease agent that doesn't kill people; it disables them. But they found that if they had mycoplasma at a certain strength, actually ten to the tenth power, it would develop into AIDS, and the person would die from it within a reasonable period of time because it could bypass our natural human defenses. If it was 108, the person would manifest with chronic fatigue syndrome or fibromyalgia. If it was 107, they would present as wasting; they wouldn't die, and they wouldn't be disabled, but they would not be that interested in life, they would waste away (ref. Dr. Donald MacArthur of the Pentagon appearing before a Congressional Committee, June 9, 1969, Department of Defense Appropriations, p.114, 129). Most of us have never heard of brucellosis because it largely disappeared when they began pasteurizing milk, which was the carrier. One salt shaker of this pure disease in a crystalline form could sicken the entire population of Canada. It is absolutely deadly, not in terms of killing the body, but in terms of disabling the body. The advantage of this crystalline disease agent is that it does not show up in blood and tissue tests because the bacteria has disappeared and only the pure disease agent remains. So the doctor thinks that it's all in your head. CRYSTALLINE BRUCELLOSIS AND MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS About three years ago in Rochester, New York, a gentleman gave me a document and told me, 'I was in the U.S. Army, and I was trained in bacteriological warfare. We were handling a bomb filled with brucellosis, only it wasn't brucellosis; it was a brucellosis toxin in crystalline form. We were spraying it on the Chinese and North Koreans.' He showed me his certificate listing his training in chemical, biological, and radiological warfare. Then he showed me 16 pages of documents given to him by the U.S. military when he was discharged from the service. It linked brucellosis with multiple sclerosis and stated: 'Veterans with multiple sclerosis, a kind of creeping paralysis developing to a degree of 10% or more disability within two years after separation from active service may be presumed to be service-connected for disability compensation. Compensation is payable to eligible veterans whose disabilities are due to service.' In other words, 'If you become ill with multiple sclerosis, it is because you were handling this brucellosis and we will give you a pension. Don't go raising any fuss about it.' The government of the United States, in this official document revealed evidence of the cause of multiple sclerosis, but they didn't make it known to the public, or to your doctor. In a 1958 report, Drs. Kyger and Haden suggest '?the possibility that multiple sclerosis might be a central nervous system manifestation of chronic brucellosis'. Testing approximately 113 MS patients, they found that almost 95% also tested positive for brucellosis. We have a document from a medical journal which concludes that one out of 500 people who had brucellosis would develop what they called neurobrucellosis, in other words, brucellosis in the brain which settles in the lateral ventricles where the disease multiple sclerosis is basically located. CONTAMINATION OF CAMP DETRICK LAB WORKERS A report from the New England Journal of Medicine, 1948, Vol.236, p.741 called 'Acute Brucellosis Among Laboratory Workers' shows us how actively dangerous this agent is. The laboratory workers were from Camp Detrick, Frederick, Maryland where they were developing biological weapons. Even though these laboratory workers had been vaccinated, wore rubberized suits and masks, and worked through holes in the compartment, many of them came down with this awful disease because it is so absolutely and terrifyingly infectious. The article was written by Lt. Calderone Howell, Marine Corps, Captain Edward Miller, Marine Corps, Lt. Emily Kelly, United States Naval Reserve and Captain Henry Bookman. They were all military personnel engaged in making the disease agent brucellosis into a more effective biological weapon. III - COVERT TESTING OF THE MYCOPLASMA TESTING BRUCELLOSIS UPON AN UNSUSPECTING PUBLIC Documented evidence proves that the biological weapons they were developing were tested on the public in various communities without their knowledge or consent. The government knew that crystalline brucellosis would cause disease in humans. Now they needed to determine how it spread, and the best way to disperse it. They tested dispersal methods for Brucella suis and Brucella melitensis at Dugway Proving Ground, Utah, June and September 1952. Probably, 100% of us now are infected with Brucella suis and Brucella melitensis. (ref. p.135, table 4 of Special Virus Cancer Program: Progress Report 8) . Another government document recommended the genesis of open air vulnerability tests, and covert research and development programs to be conducted by the army and supported by the Central Intelligence Agency. At that time, the government of Canada was asked by the government of the United States to cooperate in testing weaponized brucellosis, and Canada cooperated fully with the government of the United States. They wanted to determine (i) if mosquitoes will carry the disease and (ii) if the air will carry it. A government report stated that '?open air testing of infectious biological agents is considered essential to an ultimate understanding of biological warfare potentialities because of the many unknown factors affecting the degradation of micro-organisms in the atmosphere'. TESTING BRUCELLOSES VIA MOSQUITO VECTOR IN PUNTA GORDA A report from The New England Journal of Medicine, August 22, 1957, p.362 reveals that one of the first outbreaks of chronic fatigue syndrome was in Punta Gorda, Florida, back in 1957. It was a strange coincidence that a week before these people came down with chronic fatigue syndrome, there was a huge influx of mosquitoes. The National Institutes of Health claimed that the mosquitoes came from a forest fire 30 miles away. When the forest fire broke out, the mosquitoes all said, 'Well, let's go over to Punta Gorda - there will be a bunch of people over there, we can have a picnic, and then we will go home'. The truth is that those mosquitoes were infected in Canada by Dr. J.B. Reed at Queen's University. They were bred in Belleville, Ontario, and taken down and released in Punta Gorda. Within a week, the first five cases ever of chronic fatigue syndrome were reported to the local clinic in Punta Gorda, and it continued until finally 450 people were ill with the disease. TESTING BRUCELLOSIS VIA MOSQUITO VECTOR IN ONTARIO The government of Canada established the Dominion Parasite Laboratory in Belleville, Ontario, and raised 100 million mosquitoes a month which were shipped to Queen's University and certain other facilities to be infected with this disease agent. The mosquitoes were then let loose in certain communities in the middle of the night so they could determine how many people would become ill with chronic fatigue syndrome, or fibromyalgia, which was the first disease to show. One of the communities they tested it on was the St. Lawrence Seaway valley all the way from Kingston to Cornwall in 1984. They let out absolutely hundreds of millions of infected mosquitoes. Over 700 people in the next four or five weeks developed myalgic encephalomyelitis, or chronic fatigue syndrome. IV - OTHER SECRET GOVERNMENT TESTING MAD COW DISEASE IN THE FORE INDIAN TRIBE At the infamous Japanese Camp 731 in Manchuria, they contaminated prisoners of war with certain disease agents. They also established a research camp in New Guinea in 1942, and experimented upon the Fore Indian tribe, and inoculated them with a minced-up version of the brains of diseased sheep containing the visna virus which causes mad cow disease (Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease which is known to you as mad cow disease, but which was known to the Fore Indian tribe as kuru). About five or six years later, after the Japanese had been driven out, the poor people of the Fore tribe developed what they called kuru which was their word for wasting, and they began to shake, lose their appetites, and die. The autopsies revealed that their brains had literally turned to mush. They had contracted mad cow disease from the Japanese experiments. When World War II ended, the Japanese General Doctor who was in charge of biological warfare experimentations in Japan, Dr. Ishii Shiro, was captured. They gave him the choice of a job with the United States army or execution as a war criminal. Not surprisingly, Dr. Ishii Shiro chose to work with the United States military to demonstrate how they had created mad cow disease in the Fore Indian tribe. In 1957, when the disease was beginning to blossom in full among these Fore Indian people, Dr. Carleton Gajdusek of the National Institutes of Health of the U.S. headed down to New Guinea to to determine how the minced-up brains of the visna-infected sheep affected these people. He spent a couple of years in New Guinea studying the Fore tribe, wrote an extensive report on it, and won the Nobel Prize for 'discovering' kuru disease (also known as mad cow or Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease) in the Fore Indian tribe in New Guinea. TESTING CARCINOGENS IN RUSSIA In 1953, the Americans developed a carcinogenic chemical which they wanted to test, but they didn't want to test it in the United States so they flew over Russia, accidentally wandered off course, and sprayed this stuff. Many people started getting cancer. And the U.S. had some jokes about this. One American researcher, Dr. Maurice Hilleman of Merck, Sharp and Dohme, joked, 'We are going to win the next Olympics because all the Russians are going to turn up with 40-pound tumours.' They thought it was a big joke. TESTING CARCINOGENS IN WINNIPEG Next they said, 'How about testing it in Canada?' In 1953, the U.S. asked the government of Canada if they could test this carcinogenic chemical over the city of Winnipeg. It was a big city with 500,000 people, miles from anywhere. They sprayed the chemical in a 1,000% attenuated form, which they said would be so watered down that nobody would get very sick. However, if people came to clinics with a sniffle, a sore throat, or ringing in their ears, the researchers would be able to determine what percentage would have developed cancer if it had been full strength. When we located evidence that the Americans had tested this carcinogenic chemical over the city of Winnipeg in 1953, and informed the government that we had this evidence, they denied it. However, finally, on May 15, 1997, a story out of the Canadian Press in Washington, D.C. by Robert Russo, published in the Toronto Star, stated that the Pentagon of the United States admitted that in 1953 they had obtained permission from the government of Canada to fly over the city of Winnipeg and spray this crap out, and it sifted down on kids going to school, housewives hanging out their laundry, and people going to work. US Army planes and trucks released the chemical 36 times between July and August 1953. The chemical used was zinc cadmium sulfide, a carcinogen. They got their statistics, which indicated that if it had been full strength, approximately a third of the population of Winnipeg would have developed cancers over the next five years. The Pentagon called a press conference to admit what they had done. One professor, Dr. Hugh Fudenberg, MD, who was nominated twice for the Nobel Prize wrote a magazine article which stated that the Pentagon has come clean on this because two researchers up in Sudbury, Ontario, Don Scott and his son Bill Scott had been revealing this to the public. The US Army actually conducted a whole series of simulated germ warfare tests in Winnipeg. The Pentagon lied about the tests to the mayor, saying that they were testing a chemical fog over the city, which would protect Winnipeg in the event of a nuclear attack.

A report commissioned by US Congress, chaired by Dr. Rogene Henderson, lists 32 American towns and cities used as test sites as well. V - BRUCELLOSIS MYCOPLASMA AND DISEASE AIDS The AIDS pathogen was created out of a brucellosis bacteria mutated with a visna virus; then the toxin was removed as a DNA particle called a mycoplasma. They used the same mycoplasma to develop disabling diseases like MS, Crohn's colitis, Lyme disease etc. In a United States congressional document of a meeting held June 9, 1969, the Pentagon delivered a report to Congress about biological weapons (described on page 129 of the document). The Pentagon stated, 'We are continuing to develop disabling weapons.' Dr. MacArthur, who was in charge of the research said, 'We are developing a new lethal weapon, a synthetic biological agent that does not naturally exist, and for which no natural immunity could have been acquired.' Think about it. If you have a deficiency of acquired immunity, you have an acquired immunity deficiency. Plain as that. AIDS. In laboratories throughout the United States and a certain number in Canada, including the University of Alberta, the U.S. government provided the leadership for the development of the AIDS virus for the purpose of population control. After they had it perfected, they sent medical teams from the Centers for Disease Control to Africa and other mid-eastern countries where they thought the population was becoming too large. They gave them all a free vaccination for smallpox. Five years after receiving this smallpox vaccination, 60% of them were suffering from AIDS. They tried to blame it on a monkey, which is nonsense. There was a report in the newspapers a while back about a professor at the University of Arkansas who claimed that while studying the tissues of a dead chimpanzee, she found the HIV virus. The chimpanzee that she had tested was born in the United States 23 years earlier. It had lived its entire life in a U.S. military laboratory where it was used as an experimental animal for the development of these diseases. When it died, its body was shipped to a storage place where it was deep-frozen and stored in case they wanted to analyze it later. Then they decided that they didn't have enough space for it, so they said, 'Anybody want this dead chimpanzee?' and this researcher from Arkansas said, 'Yes. Send it down to the University of Arkansas. We are happy to get anything that we can get.' They shipped it down and she found the HIV virus in it. That virus was acquired by that chimpanzee in the laboratories where it was tested. CHRONIC FATIGUE Chronic fatigue syndrome is more accurately called myalgic encephalomyelitis, not chronic fatigue syndrome. That nomenclature was given by the National Institutes of Health in the United States because they wanted to downgrade and belittle the disease. An MRI of the brain of a teenage girl who had chronic fatigue syndrome displayed a great many scars or punctate lesions in the left frontal lobe area where portions of the brain had literally dissolved and had been replaced by scar tissue. This caused cognitive impairment, memory impairment, etc. And what was the cause of the scars? The mycoplasma. So there is very concrete physical evidence of these tragic diseases even though doctors continue to say they don't know where it comes from or what they can do about it APPEALS TO CANADA PENSION Many people with chronic fatigue syndrome, myalgic encephalo-myelitis and fibromyalgia who apply to the Canada Pension Plan will be turned down because they cannot prove that they are ill. Over the past year I have conducted several appeals to Canada Pension and Workers Compensation on behalf of people who have been turned down. I provided documented evidence of these illnesses, and they were all granted their pensions on the basis of the evidence that I provided. In March of last year, for example, I appealed to the Workers' Compensation on behalf of a lady with fibromyalgia who had been denied her pension back in 1993. The vice-chairman of the board came up to Sudbury to hear the appeal, and I showed him a number of documents which proved that this lady was physically ill with fibromyalgia. It was a disease which caused physical damage, and the disease agent was a mycoplasma. The guy listened for three hours and then he said to me, 'Mr. Scott, how is it I have never heard of any of this before? I said, 'We brought a top authority in this area into Sudbury to speak on this subject and not a single solitary doctor came to that presentation.' VI - TESTING FOR THE PRESENCE OF MYCOPLASMA IN YOUR BODY THE POLYMERASE CHAIN REACTION TEST Information is not generally available about this agent, because first of all, the mycoplasma is such an infinitely small disease agent. A hundred years ago certain medical theoreticians conceived that there must be something smaller than the bacteria and the virus, which are the most common living forms of disease agents. This pathogenic organism is so infinitely small that normal blood and tissue tests will not reveal the source of the disease. Your doctor may diagnose you with Alzheimer's and he will say, 'Golly, we don't know where Alzheimer's comes from. All we know is that your brain begins to deteriorate, cells rupture, the myelin sheath around the nerves dissolves, and so on.' Or if you have chronic fatigue syndrome, the doctor will not be able to find any cause for your illness with ordinary blood and tissue tests. This mycoplasma couldn't be detected until about 30 years ago when they developed the polymerase chain reaction test in which they examine a sample of your blood, remove damaged particles, and subject that damaged particle to a polymerase chain reaction. This causes the DNA in the particle to break down. Then they place it in a nutrient which causes the DNA to grow back into its original form. If they get enough of it they can recognize what it is, and determine whether brucellosis or another kind of agent is behind that particular mycoplasma. THE BLOOD TEST If anybody in your family has myalgic encephalomyelitis, fibromyalgia, multiple sclerosis, or Alzheimer's, you can send a blood test to Dr. Les Simpson in New Zealand. If you are ill with these diseases, your red blood cells will not be normal donut-shaped blood cells capable of being compressed and squeezed through the capillaries, but will swell up like cherry-filled donuts, which cannot be compressed. The blood cells become enlarged and distended because the only way the mycoplasma can exist is by uptaking preformed sterols from the host cell. One of the best sources of preformed sterols is cholesterol, and cholesterol is what gives your blood cells flexibility. If the cholesterol is taken out by the mycoplasma, the red blood cell swells up, doesn't go through and the person begins to feel all the aches and pains, and all the damage it causes to the brain, the heart, the stomach, the feet and the whole body because blood and oxygen is cut off. And that is why people with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome have such a terrible time. When the blood is cut off from the brain, punctate lesions appear, because those parts of the brain die. It will get into portions of the heart muscle, especially the left ventricle, and those cells will die. Certain people have cells in the lateral ventricles of the brain that have a genetic predisposition to admit the mycoplasma, and it causes the lateral ventricles to deteriorate and die and this leads to multiple sclerosis which will progress until they are totally disabled and frequently die prematurely. It will get into the lower bowel and parts of the lower bowel will die and cause colitis. All of these diseases are caused by the degenerating properties of the mycoplasma. About two months ago a gentleman in Sudbury phoned me and told me he had fibromyalgia. He applied for Canada Pension and was turned down because his doctor said it was all in his head and there was no external evidence. I gave him the proper form and a vial, and he sent his blood to Dr. Les Simpson of New Zealand to be tested. He did this with his family doctor's approval, and the results from Dr. Simpson showed that only 4% of his red blood cells were functioning normally and carrying the appropriate amount of oxygen to his poor body, whereas 83% were distended, enlarged and hardened, and wouldn't go through the capillaries without an awful lot of pressure and trouble. This is the physical evidence of the damage that is done. THE ECG TEST You can also ask your doctor to give you a 24-hour Holter ECG. You know, of course, that an electrocardiogram is a measure of your heart beat, which shows what is going on in the right ventricle, the left ventricle, and so on. Tests show that 100% of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia have an irregular heart beat. At various periods of time, during the 24 hours, the heart, instead of working happily away, going 'bump-BUMP, bump-BUMP', every now and again, it will go 'buhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuh'. The T-wave (the waves are called P, Q, R, S, and the last one is T) is normally a peak, and then the wave levels off and starts with the P-wave again. In chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia patients, the T-wave flattens off, or actually inverts. That means the blood in the left ventricle is not being squeezed up through the aorta and around through the body. My client did this test, and lo and behold, the test results stated: 'The shape of T and S-T suggest left ventricle strain pattern, although voltage and so on is normal'. The doctor had no clue as to why the T-wave was not working properly. I analyzed the report of the patient who had been turned down by Canada Pension and sent it back to them. They wrote back and said, 'It looks like we may have made a mistake. We are going to give you a hearing and you can explain this to us in more detail.' So it is not all in your imagination. There is actual physical damage to the heart. The left ventricle muscles do show scarring. That is why many people are diagnosed with a heart condition when they first develop fibromyalgia, but it's only one of several problems because the mycoplasma can do all kinds of damage. BLOOD VOLUME TEST You can also ask your doctor for a blood volume test. Every human being requires a certain amount of blood per pound of body weight, and it has been observed that people with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple sclerosis and others do not have the normal blood volume their body needs to function properly. Doctors aren't normally aware of this. This test measures the amount of blood in the human body by taking out five cc, putting a tracer in it, and then putting it back in the body. One hour later take out five cc again and look for the tracer. The thicker the blood and the lower the blood volume, the more tracer you will find. The analysis of one of my clients stated: 'This patient was referred for red cell mass study. The red cell volume is 16.9 ml per kg of body weight. The normal range is 25 to 35 ml. per kg.' This guy has 36% less blood in his body than the body needs to function'. And the doctor hadn't even known the test existed. If you lost 36% of your blood in an accident, do you think your doctor would tell you that you are all right, just take up line dancing and you will get over it? They would rush you to the nearest hospital and start infusing you with blood transfusions. These tragic people with these awful diseases are functioning with anywhere from 7 to 50% less blood than their bodies need to function. UNDOING THE DAMAGE The body undoes the damage itself. The scarring in the brain of people with chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia will be repaired. There is cellular repair going on all the time. But the mycoplasma has moved on to the next cell. In the early stages of a disease, doxycycline may reverse the disease. It is one of the tetracycline antibiotics, but it is not bactericidal; it is bacteriostatic. It stops the growth of the mycoplasma, and if it is stopped long enough, then the immune system takes over.

(Nicholson, G.L., Doxycycline treatment and Desert Storm, JAMA, 1995, 273: 618-619), GULF WAR RESEARCH Professor Garth Nicholson, Ph.D., of the Institute for Molecular Medicine is one of the top experts on mycoplasma. He has been given an $8 million grant to study 450 Gulf War veterans, because Gulf War illness is caused by the mycoplasma. Dr. Les Simpson has done most of the research in detecting the disease by the polymerase chain reaction blood test. You may contact Dr. Nicholson at 15162 Triton Lane, Huntington Beach, Ca, 92649-1401, tel 714-903-2900. In summary, there is a disease agent that is called a mycoplasma All of these neurodegenerative systemic diseases are caused by a particle of a bacterial DNA, a mycoplasma, that enters into the cells of living organisms and takes the cells apart, sterol by sterol, leaving scar tissue, and causing all the range of symptoms that you see in people with these diseases. The military and the National Institutes of Health and the government are all dedicated to keeping this mycoplasma as covert as they possibly can For more information and references, please refer to The Brucellosis Triangle and The Extremely Unfortunate Skull Valley Incident by Don Scott and William Scott, both available at Consumer Health Organization. Other recommended reading is Osler's Web by Hillary Johnson and Emerging Viruses: Aids and Ebola by Leonard Horowitz. Don Scott also produces The Journal of Degenerative Diseases. You may contact Donald Scott at: 190 Mountain St., Ste. 405, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada P3B 4G2. 705-670-0180. Note: Dr. David Webster at Sudbury General Hospital, a wonderful person, with whom I have had conversations about these awful diseases can tell your doctor about the Blood Volume test. Article Information Volume 23 Issue 6 June,2000 Search For: search Recommended Books The Brucellosis Triangle SCOTT, Donald, MD, & William The Extremely Unfortunate Skull Valley Incident SCOTT, Donald, MD, & William ?ome | top of page who we are | total health convention | books & tapes | articles | membership | links | contact us Site created/maintained by Emitting Media Last modified on Wed Feb 13 23:20:59 2002 RONIC FATIGUE, ALZHEIMER'S, PARKINSON'S & MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS by: Scott, Donald W., M.Sc. Donald Scott is a retired high school teacher and university professor who is currently president of the Common Cause Medical Research Foundation and adjunct professor of the Institute of Molecular Medicine. He has extensively researched neurosystemic degenerative diseases over the past five years and has authored many documents on the relationship between degenerative diseases and a pathogenic mycoplasma called Mycoplasma fermentans. His research is based upon solid government evidence. Donald Scott is a veteran of WWII and was awarded the North Atlantic Star, the Burma Star with Clasp, the 1939-1945 Volunteer Service Medal and the Victory Medal. I - THE MYCOPLASMA A COMMON PATHOGENIC MYCOPLASMA There are 200 species of mycoplasmas. Most are innocuous and do no harm; only four or five are pathogenic. The Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus strain) probably comes from the nucleus of the brucellosis bacteria. This disease agent is not a bacteria, and not a virus; it is a mutated form of the brucellosis bacteria, mutated with a visna virus, from which the mycoplasma, is extracted. Dr. Maurice Hilleman, chief virologist for the pharmaceutical company of Merck, Sharp and Dohme, stated that this disease agent is now carried by everybody in North America and possibly most people throughout the world. The mycoplasma used to be very innocuous. Only one person out of 500,000 would get multiple sclerosis; one out of 300,000 would develop Alzheimer's; one out of 1,000,000 would develop Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Before the early 1980's, nobody ever died of AIDS because it didn't exist. The mycoplasma is also the disease agent in AIDS, and I have all the documentation to prove it. BIOWARFARE RESEARCH Between 1942 and the present time, biological warfare research has resulted in a more deadly and infectious form of the mycoplasma. They extracted this mycoplasma from the brucellosis bacteria, weaponized it and actually reduced the disease to a crystalline form. According to Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo, one of America's top, top researchers, this disease agent, the mycoplasma, causes among other things, AIDS, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple sclerosis, Wegener's disease, Parkinson's disease, Crohn's colitis, Type I diabetes, and collagen-vascular diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and Alzheimer's.

The mycoplasma enters into the individual cells of the body depending upon your genetic predisposition. You may develop neurological diseases if the pathogen destroys certain cells in your brain, or you may develop Crohn's colitis if the pathogen invades and destroys cells in the lower bowel. Once it gets into the cell, it can lie there doing nothing sometimes for 10, 20 or 30 years, but if a trauma occurs like an accident, or a vaccination that doesn't take, the mycoplasma can become triggered. Because it is only the DNA particle of the bacteria, it doesn't have any organelles to process its own nutrients, so it grows by uptaking preformed sterols from its host cell, literally kills the cell, and the cell ruptures and what is left gets dumped into the blood stream. DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE My conclusions are entirely based upon official documents: 80% are United States or Canadian official government documents, and 20% are articles from peer-reviewed journals, such as the Journal of the American Medical Association, The New England Journal of Medicine, and The Canadian Medical Association Journal. The journal articles and government documents complement each other. We also have a document from Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo which names the mycoplasma as a cause of cancer. Dr. Charles Engel who is with the National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland, stated at an NIH meeting on February 7, 2000, 'I am now of the view that the probable cause of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and fibromyalgia is the mycoplasma'. II - CREATION OF THE MYCOPLASMA MYCOPLASMA PATENT Many doctors don't know about this mycoplasma because it was developed by the U.S. military in biological warfare experimentation, and it was not made public. This pathogenic mycoplasma disease agent was patented by the United States military by Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo, who was the top researcher for the military biological warfare research facility. I have the documented patent from the U.S. patent office. A LABORATORY-CREATED PATHOGEN BY THE U.S. MILITARY Researchers in the United States, Canada and Britain were doing biowarfare research with the brucellosis bacteria as well as with a number of other disease agents. From its inception, the biowarfare program was characterized by continuing in-depth review and participation by the most eminent scientists, medical consultants, industrial experts and government officials, and it was top secret. The U.S. Public Health Service also closely followed the progress of biological warfare research and development from the very start of the program, and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), and the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in the United States were working with the military in weaponizing these diseases. These are diseases which have existed for thousands of years, but they have been weaponized which means they were made more contagious and more effective. And they are spreading. A program developed by the CIA and NIH to develop a deadly lethal pathogen for which humanity had no natural immunity (AIDS) was disguised as a war on cancer and was part of MKNAOMI (ref. Special Virus Cancer Program: Progress Report 8, prepared by National Cancer Institute, Viral Oncology, Etiology Area, July, 1971 and submitted to NIH Annual Report in May, 1971 and updated July, 1971). COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM Many members of the Senate and House of Represent-atives do not know what has been going on. For example, the US Senate Committee on Government Reform had searched the archives in Washington and other places for the document titled The Special Virus Cancer Program: Progress Report No.8 mentioned above and couldn't find it. Somehow they heard I had it, called me and asked me to mail it to them. Imagine. A retired school teacher being called by the United States Senate and asked for one of their secret documents! The United States Senate through their government reform committee is trying to stop this type of government research. BIOLOGICAL WARFARE RESEARCH AGREEMENT All the countries at war were experimenting with biological weapons. In 1942, the governments of the United States, Canada and Great Britain entered into a secret agreement to create two types of biological weapons (one that would kill and one that was disabling) for use in the war against Germany and Japan, who were also developing biological weapons. They primarily focused on brucellosis, and they began to weaponize the brucellosis bacteria.

CRYSTALLINE BRUCELLOSIS In a genuine U.S. Senate Study unclassified on February 24, 1977, the title page of this government record reports that George Merck, of the pharmaceutical company, Merck, Sharp and Dohme (which now makes cures for diseases they at one time created), in 1946, reported to the Secretary of War in the United States that his researchers had produced in isolation for the first time, a crystalline bacterial toxin extracted from brucellosis bacteria. The bacterial toxin could be removed in crystalline form and delivered by other vectors (in nature they are delivered within the bacteria). But the factor that is working in the brucellosis is the mycoplasma. Brucellosis is a disease agent that doesn't kill people; it disables them. But they found that if they had mycoplasma at a certain strength, actually ten to the tenth power, it would develop into AIDS, and the person would die from it within a reasonable period of time because it could bypass our natural human defenses. If it was 108, the person would manifest with chronic fatigue syndrome or fibromyalgia. If it was 107, they would present as wasting; they wouldn't die, and they wouldn't be disabled, but they would not be that interested in life, they would waste away (ref. Dr. Donald MacArthur of the Pentagon appearing before a Congressional Committee, June 9, 1969, Department of Defense Appropriations, p.114, 129). Most of us have never heard of brucellosis because it largely disappeared when they began pasteurizing milk, which was the carrier. One salt shaker of this pure disease in a crystalline form could sicken the entire population of Canada. It is absolutely deadly, not in terms of killing the body, but in terms of disabling the body. The advantage of this crystalline disease agent is that it does not show up in blood and tissue tests because the bacteria has disappeared and only the pure disease agent remains. So the doctor thinks that it's all in your head. CRYSTALLINE BRUCELLOSIS AND MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS About three years ago in Rochester, New York, a gentleman gave me a document and told me, 'I was in the U.S. Army, and I was trained in bacteriological warfare. We were handling a bomb filled with brucellosis, only it wasn't brucellosis; it was a brucellosis toxin in crystalline form. We were spraying it on the Chinese and North Koreans.' He showed me his certificate listing his training in chemical, biological, and radiological warfare. Then he showed me 16 pages of documents given to him by the U.S. military when he was discharged from the service. It linked brucellosis with multiple sclerosis and stated: 'Veterans with multiple sclerosis, a kind of creeping paralysis developing to a degree of 10% or more disability within two years after separation from active service may be presumed to be service-connected for disability compensation. Compensation is payable to eligible veterans whose disabilities are due to service.' In other words, 'If you become ill with multiple sclerosis, it is because you were handling this brucellosis and we will give you a pension. Don't go raising any fuss about it.' The government of the United States, in this official document revealed evidence of the cause of multiple sclerosis, but they didn't make it known to the public, or to your doctor. In a 1958 report, Drs. Kyger and Haden suggest '?the possibility that multiple sclerosis might be a central nervous system manifestation of chronic brucellosis'. Testing approximately 113 MS patients, they found that almost 95% also tested positive for brucellosis. We have a document from a medical journal which concludes that one out of 500 people who had brucellosis would develop what they called neurobrucellosis, in other words, brucellosis in the brain which settles in the lateral ventricles where the disease multiple sclerosis is basically located. CONTAMINATION OF CAMP DETRICK LAB WORKERS A report from the New England Journal of Medicine, 1948, Vol.236, p.741 called 'Acute Brucellosis Among Laboratory Workers' shows us how actively dangerous this agent is. The laboratory workers were from Camp Detrick, Frederick, Maryland where they were developing biological weapons. Even though these laboratory workers had been vaccinated, wore rubberized suits and masks, and worked through holes in the compartment, many of them came down with this awful disease because it is so absolutely and terrifyingly infectious. The article was written by Lt. Calderone Howell, Marine Corps, Captain Edward Miller, Marine Corps, Lt. Emily Kelly, United States Naval Reserve and Captain Henry Bookman. They were all military personnel engaged in making the disease agent brucellosis into a more effective biological weapon. III - COVERT TESTING OF THE MYCOPLASMA TESTING BRUCELLOSIS UPON AN UNSUSPECTING PUBLIC Documented evidence proves that the biological weapons they were developing were tested on the public in various communities without their knowledge or consent. The government knew that crystalline brucellosis would cause disease in humans. Now they needed to determine how it spread, and the best way to disperse it. They tested dispersal methods for Brucella suis and Brucella melitensis at Dugway Proving Ground, Utah, June and September 1952. Probably, 100% of us now are infected with Brucella suis and Brucella melitensis. (ref. p.135, table 4 of Special Virus Cancer Program: Progress Report 8) . Another government document recommended the genesis of open air vulnerability tests, and covert research and development programs to be conducted by the army and supported by the Central Intelligence Agency. At that time, the government of Canada was asked by the government of the United States to cooperate in testing weaponized brucellosis, and Canada cooperated fully with the government of the United States. They wanted to determine (i) if mosquitoes will carry the disease and (ii) if the air will carry it. A government report stated that '?open air testing of infectious biological agents is considered essential to an ultimate understanding of biological warfare potentialities because of the many unknown factors affecting the degradation of micro-organisms in the atmosphere'. TESTING BRUCELLOSES VIA MOSQUITO VECTOR IN PUNTA GORDA A report from The New England Journal of Medicine, August 22, 1957, p.362 reveals that one of the first outbreaks of chronic fatigue syndrome was in Punta Gorda, Florida, back in 1957. It was a strange coincidence that a week before these people came down with chronic fatigue syndrome, there was a huge influx of mosquitoes. The National Institutes of Health claimed that the mosquitoes came from a forest fire 30 miles away. When the forest fire broke out, the mosquitoes all said, 'Well, let's go over to Punta Gorda - there will be a bunch of people over there, we can have a picnic, and then we will go home'. The truth is that those mosquitoes were infected in Canada by Dr. J.B. Reed at Queen's University. They were bred in Belleville, Ontario, and taken down and released in Punta Gorda. Within a week, the first five cases ever of chronic fatigue syndrome were reported to the local clinic in Punta Gorda, and it continued until finally 450 people were ill with the disease. TESTING BRUCELLOSIS VIA MOSQUITO VECTOR IN ONTARIO The government of Canada established the Dominion Parasite Laboratory in Belleville, Ontario, and raised 100 million mosquitoes a month which were shipped to Queen's University and certain other facilities to be infected with this disease agent. The mosquitoes were then let loose in certain communities in the middle of the night so they could determine how many people would become ill with chronic fatigue syndrome, or fibromyalgia, which was the first disease to show. One of the communities they tested it on was the St. Lawrence Seaway valley all the way from Kingston to Cornwall in 1984. They let out absolutely hundreds of millions of infected mosquitoes. Over 700 people in the next four or five weeks developed myalgic encephalomyelitis, or chronic fatigue syndrome. IV - OTHER SECRET GOVERNMENT TESTING MAD COW DISEASE IN THE FORE INDIAN TRIBE At the infamous Japanese Camp 731 in Manchuria, they contaminated prisoners of war with certain disease agents. They also established a research camp in New Guinea in 1942, and experimented upon the Fore Indian tribe, and inoculated them with a minced-up version of the brains of diseased sheep containing the visna virus which causes mad cow disease (Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease which is known to you as mad cow disease, but which was known to the Fore Indian tribe as kuru). About five or six years later, after the Japanese had been driven out, the poor people of the Fore tribe developed what they called kuru which was their word for wasting, and they began to shake, lose their appetites, and die. The autopsies revealed that their brains had literally turned to mush. They had contracted mad cow disease from the Japanese experiments. When World War II ended, the Japanese General Doctor who was in charge of biological warfare experimentations in Japan, Dr. Ishii Shiro, was captured. They gave him the choice of a job with the United States army or execution as a war criminal. Not surprisingly, Dr. Ishii Shiro chose to work with the United States military to demonstrate how they had created mad cow disease in the Fore Indian tribe. In 1957, when the disease was beginning to blossom in full among these Fore Indian people, Dr. Carleton Gajdusek of the National Institutes of Health of the U.S. headed down to New Guinea to to determine how the minced-up brains of the visna-infected sheep affected these people. He spent a couple of years in New Guinea studying the Fore tribe, wrote an extensive report on it, and won the Nobel Prize for 'discovering' kuru disease (also known as mad cow or Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease) in the Fore Indian tribe in New Guinea. TESTING CARCINOGENS IN RUSSIA In 1953, the Americans developed a carcinogenic chemical which they wanted to test, but they didn't want to test it in the United States so they flew over Russia, accidentally wandered off course, and sprayed this stuff. Many people started getting cancer. And the U.S. had some jokes about this. One American researcher, Dr. Maurice Hilleman of Merck, Sharp and Dohme, joked, 'We are going to win the next Olympics because all the Russians are going to turn up with 40-pound tumours.' They thought it was a big joke. TESTING CARCINOGENS IN WINNIPEG Next they said, 'How about testing it in Canada?' In 1953, the U.S. asked the government of Canada if they could test this carcinogenic chemical over the city of Winnipeg. It was a big city with 500,000 people, miles from anywhere. They sprayed the chemical in a 1,000% attenuated form, which they said would be so watered down that nobody would get very sick. However, if people came to clinics with a sniffle, a sore throat, or ringing in their ears, the researchers would be able to determine what percentage would have developed cancer if it had been full strength. When we located evidence that the Americans had tested this carcinogenic chemical over the city of Winnipeg in 1953, and informed the government that we had this evidence, they denied it. However, finally, on May 15, 1997, a story out of the Canadian Press in Washington, D.C. by Robert Russo, published in the Toronto Star, stated that the Pentagon of the United States admitted that in 1953 they had obtained permission from the government of Canada to fly over the city of Winnipeg and spray this crap out, and it sifted down on kids going to school, housewives hanging out their laundry, and people going to work. US Army planes and trucks released the chemical 36 times between July and August 1953. The chemical used was zinc cadmium sulfide, a carcinogen. They got their statistics, which indicated that if it had been full strength, approximately a third of the population of Winnipeg would have developed cancers over the next five years. The Pentagon called a press conference to admit what they had done. One professor, Dr. Hugh Fudenberg, MD, who was nominated twice for the Nobel Prize wrote a magazine article which stated that the Pentagon has come clean on this because two researchers up in Sudbury, Ontario, Don Scott and his son Bill Scott had been revealing this to the public. The US Army actually conducted a whole series of simulated germ warfare tests in Winnipeg. The Pentagon lied about the tests to the mayor, saying that they were testing a chemical fog over the city, which would protect Winnipeg in the event of a nuclear attack.

A report commissioned by US Congress, chaired by Dr. Rogene Henderson, lists 32 American towns and cities used as test sites as well. V - BRUCELLOSIS MYCOPLASMA AND DISEASE AIDS The AIDS pathogen was created out of a brucellosis bacteria mutated with a visna virus; then the toxin was removed as a DNA particle called a mycoplasma. They used the same mycoplasma to develop disabling diseases like MS, Crohn's colitis, Lyme disease etc. In a United States congressional document of a meeting held June 9, 1969, the Pentagon delivered a report to Congress about biological weapons (described on page 129 of the document). The Pentagon stated, 'We are continuing to develop disabling weapons.' Dr. MacArthur, who was in charge of the research said, 'We are developing a new lethal weapon, a synthetic biological agent that does not naturally exist, and for which no natural immunity could have been acquired.' Think about it. If you have a deficiency of acquired immunity, you have an acquired immunity deficiency. Plain as that. AIDS. In laboratories throughout the United States and a certain number in Canada, including the University of Alberta, the U.S. government provided the leadership for the development of the AIDS virus for the purpose of population control. After they had it perfected, they sent medical teams from the Centers for Disease Control to Africa and other mid-eastern countries where they thought the population was becoming too large. They gave them all a free vaccination for smallpox. Five years after receiving this smallpox vaccination, 60% of them were suffering from AIDS. They tried to blame it on a monkey, which is nonsense. There was a report in the newspapers a while back about a professor at the University of Arkansas who claimed that while studying the tissues of a dead chimpanzee, she found the HIV virus. The chimpanzee that she had tested was born in the United States 23 years earlier. It had lived its entire life in a U.S. military laboratory where it was used as an experimental animal for the development of these diseases. When it died, its body was shipped to a storage place where it was deep-frozen and stored in case they wanted to analyze it later. Then they decided that they didn't have enough space for it, so they said, 'Anybody want this dead chimpanzee?' and this researcher from Arkansas said, 'Yes. Send it down to the University of Arkansas. We are happy to get anything that we can get.' They shipped it down and she found the HIV virus in it. That virus was acquired by that chimpanzee in the laboratories where it was tested. CHRONIC FATIGUE Chronic fatigue syndrome is more accurately called myalgic encephalomyelitis, not chronic fatigue syndrome. That nomenclature was given by the National Institutes of Health in the United States because they wanted to downgrade and belittle the disease. An MRI of the brain of a teenage girl who had chronic fatigue syndrome displayed a great many scars or punctate lesions in the left frontal lobe area where portions of the brain had literally dissolved and had been replaced by scar tissue. This caused cognitive impairment, memory impairment, etc. And what was the cause of the scars? The mycoplasma. So there is very concrete physical evidence of these tragic diseases even though doctors continue to say they don't know where it comes from or what they can do about it APPEALS TO CANADA PENSION Many people with chronic fatigue syndrome, myalgic encephalo-myelitis and fibromyalgia who apply to the Canada Pension Plan will be turned down because they cannot prove that they are ill. Over the past year I have conducted several appeals to Canada Pension and Workers Compensation on behalf of people who have been turned down. I provided documented evidence of these illnesses, and they were all granted their pensions on the basis of the evidence that I provided. In March of last year, for example, I appealed to the Workers' Compensation on behalf of a lady with fibromyalgia who had been denied her pension back in 1993. The vice-chairman of the board came up to Sudbury to hear the appeal, and I showed him a number of documents which proved that this lady was physically ill with fibromyalgia. It was a disease which caused physical damage, and the disease agent was a mycoplasma. The guy listened for three hours and then he said to me, 'Mr. Scott, how is it I have never heard of any of this before? I said, 'We brought a top authority in this area into Sudbury to speak on this subject and not a single solitary doctor came to that presentation.' VI - TESTING FOR THE PRESENCE OF MYCOPLASMA IN YOUR BODY THE POLYMERASE CHAIN REACTION TEST Information is not generally available about this agent, because first of all, the mycoplasma is such an infinitely small disease agent. A hundred years ago certain medical theoreticians conceived that there must be something smaller than the bacteria and the virus, which are the most common living forms of disease agents. This pathogenic organism is so infinitely small that normal blood and tissue tests will not reveal the source of the disease. Your doctor may diagnose you with Alzheimer's and he will say, 'Golly, we don't know where Alzheimer's comes from. All we know is that your brain begins to deteriorate, cells rupture, the myelin sheath around the nerves dissolves, and so on.' Or if you have chronic fatigue syndrome, the doctor will not be able to find any cause for your illness with ordinary blood and tissue tests. This mycoplasma couldn't be detected until about 30 years ago when they developed the polymerase chain reaction test in which they examine a sample of your blood, remove damaged particles, and subject that damaged particle to a polymerase chain reaction. This causes the DNA in the particle to break down. Then they place it in a nutrient which causes the DNA to grow back into its original form. If they get enough of it they can recognize what it is, and determine whether brucellosis or another kind of agent is behind that particular mycoplasma. THE BLOOD TEST If anybody in your family has myalgic encephalomyelitis, fibromyalgia, multiple sclerosis, or Alzheimer's, you can send a blood test to Dr. Les Simpson in New Zealand. If you are ill with these diseases, your red blood cells will not be normal donut-shaped blood cells capable of being compressed and squeezed through the capillaries, but will swell up like cherry-filled donuts, which cannot be compressed. The blood cells become enlarged and distended because the only way the mycoplasma can exist is by uptaking preformed sterols from the host cell. One of the best sources of preformed sterols is cholesterol, and cholesterol is what gives your blood cells flexibility. If the cholesterol is taken out by the mycoplasma, the red blood cell swells up, doesn't go through and the person begins to feel all the aches and pains, and all the damage it causes to the brain, the heart, the stomach, the feet and the whole body because blood and oxygen is cut off. And that is why people with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome have such a terrible time. When the blood is cut off from the brain, punctate lesions appear, because those parts of the brain die. It will get into portions of the heart muscle, especially the left ventricle, and those cells will die. Certain people have cells in the lateral ventricles of the brain that have a genetic predisposition to admit the mycoplasma, and it causes the lateral ventricles to deteriorate and die and this leads to multiple sclerosis which will progress until they are totally disabled and frequently die prematurely. It will get into the lower bowel and parts of the lower bowel will die and cause colitis. All of these diseases are caused by the degenerating properties of the mycoplasma. About two months ago a gentleman in Sudbury phoned me and told me he had fibromyalgia. He applied for Canada Pension and was turned down because his doctor said it was all in his head and there was no external evidence. I gave him the proper form and a vial, and he sent his blood to Dr. Les Simpson of New Zealand to be tested. He did this with his family doctor's approval, and the results from Dr. Simpson showed that only 4% of his red blood cells were functioning normally and carrying the appropriate amount of oxygen to his poor body, whereas 83% were distended, enlarged and hardened, and wouldn't go through the capillaries without an awful lot of pressure and trouble. This is the physical evidence of the damage that is done. THE ECG TEST You can also ask your doctor to give you a 24-hour Holter ECG. You know, of course, that an electrocardiogram is a measure of your heart beat, which shows what is going on in the right ventricle, the left ventricle, and so on. Tests show that 100% of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia have an irregular heart beat. At various periods of time, during the 24 hours, the heart, instead of working happily away, going 'bump-BUMP, bump-BUMP', every now and again, it will go 'buhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuh'. The T-wave (the waves are called P, Q, R, S, and the last one is T) is normally a peak, and then the wave levels off and starts with the P-wave again. In chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia patients, the T-wave flattens off, or actually inverts. That means the blood in the left ventricle is not being squeezed up through the aorta and around through the body. My client did this test, and lo and behold, the test results stated: 'The shape of T and S-T suggest left ventricle strain pattern, although voltage and so on is normal'. The doctor had no clue as to why the T-wave was not working properly. I analyzed the report of the patient who had been turned down by Canada Pension and sent it back to them. They wrote back and said, 'It looks like we may have made a mistake. We are going to give you a hearing and you can explain this to us in more detail.' So it is not all in your imagination. There is actual physical damage to the heart. The left ventricle muscles do show scarring. That is why many people are diagnosed with a heart condition when they first develop fibromyalgia, but it's only one of several problems because the mycoplasma can do all kinds of damage. BLOOD VOLUME TEST You can also ask your doctor for a blood volume test. Every human being requires a certain amount of blood per pound of body weight, and it has been observed that people with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple sclerosis and others do not have the normal blood volume their body needs to function properly. Doctors aren't normally aware of this. This test measures the amount of blood in the human body by taking out five cc, putting a tracer in it, and then putting it back in the body. One hour later take out five cc again and look for the tracer. The thicker the blood and the lower the blood volume, the more tracer you will find. The analysis of one of my clients stated: 'This patient was referred for red cell mass study. The red cell volume is 16.9 ml per kg of body weight. The normal range is 25 to 35 ml. per kg.' This guy has 36% less blood in his body than the body needs to function'. And the doctor hadn't even known the test existed. If you lost 36% of your blood in an accident, do you think your doctor would tell you that you are all right, just take up line dancing and you will get over it? They would rush you to the nearest hospital and start infusing you with blood transfusions. These tragic people with these awful diseases are functioning with anywhere from 7 to 50% less blood than their bodies need to function. UNDOING THE DAMAGE The body undoes the damage itself. The scarring in the brain of people with chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia will be repaired. There is cellular repair going on all the time. But the mycoplasma has moved on to the next cell. In the early stages of a disease, doxycycline may reverse the disease. It is one of the tetracycline antibiotics, but it is not bactericidal; it is bacteriostatic. It stops the growth of the mycoplasma, and if it is stopped long enough, then the immune system takes over.

THE LINKING PATHOGEN IN NEURO-SYSTEMIC DISEASES: CHRONIC FATIGUE, ALZHEIMER'S, PARKINSON'S & MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS by: Scott, Donald W., M.Sc. Donald Scott is a retired high school teacher and university professor who is currently president of the Common Cause Medical Research Foundation and adjunct professor of the Institute of Molecular Medicine. He has extensively researched neurosystemic degenerative diseases over the past five years and has authored many documents on the relationship between degenerative diseases and a pathogenic mycoplasma called Mycoplasma fermentans. His research is based upon solid government evidence. Donald Scott is a veteran of WWII and was awarded the North Atlantic Star, the Burma Star with Clasp, the 1939-1945 Volunteer Service Medal and the Victory Medal. I - THE MYCOPLASMA A COMMON PATHOGENIC MYCOPLASMA There are 200 species of mycoplasmas. Most are innocuous and do no harm; only four or five are pathogenic. The Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus strain) probably comes from the nucleus of the brucellosis bacteria. This disease agent is not a bacteria, and not a virus; it is a mutated form of the brucellosis bacteria, mutated with a visna virus, from which the mycoplasma, is extracted. Dr. Maurice Hilleman, chief virologist for the pharmaceutical company of Merck, Sharp and Dohme, stated that this disease agent is now carried by everybody in North America and possibly most people throughout the world. The mycoplasma used to be very innocuous. Only one person out of 500,000 would get multiple sclerosis; one out of 300,000 would develop Alzheimer's; one out of 1,000,000 would develop Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Before the early 1980's, nobody ever died of AIDS because it didn't exist. The mycoplasma is also the disease agent in AIDS, and I have all the documentation to prove it. BIOWARFARE RESEARCH Between 1942 and the present time, biological warfare research has resulted in a more deadly and infectious form of the mycoplasma. They extracted this mycoplasma from the brucellosis bacteria, weaponized it and actually reduced the disease to a crystalline form. According to Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo, one of America's top, top researchers, this disease agent, the mycoplasma, causes among other things, AIDS, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple sclerosis, Wegener's disease, Parkinson's disease, Crohn's colitis, Type I diabetes, and collagen-vascular diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and Alzheimer's.

The mycoplasma enters into the individual cells of the body depending upon your genetic predisposition. You may develop neurological diseases if the pathogen destroys certain cells in your brain, or you may develop Crohn's colitis if the pathogen invades and destroys cells in the lower bowel. Once it gets into the cell, it can lie there doing nothing sometimes for 10, 20 or 30 years, but if a trauma occurs like an accident, or a vaccination that doesn't take, the mycoplasma can become triggered. Because it is only the DNA particle of the bacteria, it doesn't have any organelles to process its own nutrients, so it grows by uptaking preformed sterols from its host cell, literally kills the cell, and the cell ruptures and what is left gets dumped into the blood stream. DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE My conclusions are entirely based upon official documents: 80% are United States or Canadian official government documents, and 20% are articles from peer-reviewed journals, such as the Journal of the American Medical Association, The New England Journal of Medicine, and The Canadian Medical Association Journal. The journal articles and government documents complement each other. We also have a document from Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo which names the mycoplasma as a cause of cancer. Dr. Charles Engel who is with the National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, Maryland, stated at an NIH meeting on February 7, 2000, 'I am now of the view that the probable cause of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and fibromyalgia is the mycoplasma'. II - CREATION OF THE MYCOPLASMA MYCOPLASMA PATENT Many doctors don't know about this mycoplasma because it was developed by the U.S. military in biological warfare experimentation, and it was not made public. This pathogenic mycoplasma disease agent was patented by the United States military by Dr. Shyh-Ching Lo, who was the top researcher for the military biological warfare research facility. I have the documented patent from the U.S. patent office. A LABORATORY-CREATED PATHOGEN BY THE U.S. MILITARY Researchers in the United States, Canada and Britain were doing biowarfare research with the brucellosis bacteria as well as with a number of other disease agents. From its inception, the biowarfare program was characterized by continuing in-depth review and participation by the most eminent scientists, medical consultants, industrial experts and government officials, and it was top secret. The U.S. Public Health Service also closely followed the progress of biological warfare research and development from the very start of the program, and the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), and the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in the United States were working with the military in weaponizing these diseases. These are diseases which have existed for thousands of years, but they have been weaponized which means they were made more contagious and more effective. And they are spreading. A program developed by the CIA and NIH to develop a deadly lethal pathogen for which humanity had no natural immunity (AIDS) was disguised as a war on cancer and was part of MKNAOMI (ref. Special Virus Cancer Program: Progress Report 8, prepared by National Cancer Institute, Viral Oncology, Etiology Area, July, 1971 and submitted to NIH Annual Report in May, 1971 and updated July, 1971). COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM Many members of the Senate and House of Represent-atives do not know what has been going on. For example, the US Senate Committee on Government Reform had searched the archives in Washington and other places for the document titled The Special Virus Cancer Program: Progress Report No.8 mentioned above and couldn't find it. Somehow they heard I had it, called me and asked me to mail it to them. Imagine. A retired school teacher being called by the United States Senate and asked for one of their secret documents! The United States Senate through their government reform committee is trying to stop this type of government research. BIOLOGICAL WARFARE RESEARCH AGREEMENT All the countries at war were experimenting with biological weapons. In 1942, the governments of the United States, Canada and Great Britain entered into a secret agreement to create two types of biological weapons (one that would kill and one that was disabling) for use in the war against Germany and Japan, who were also developing biological weapons. They primarily focused on brucellosis, and they began to weaponize the brucellosis bacteria.

CRYSTALLINE BRUCELLOSIS In a genuine U.S. Senate Study unclassified on February 24, 1977, the title page of this government record reports that George Merck, of the pharmaceutical company, Merck, Sharp and Dohme (which now makes cures for diseases they at one time created), in 1946, reported to the Secretary of War in the United States that his researchers had produced in isolation for the first time, a crystalline bacterial toxin extracted from brucellosis bacteria. The bacterial toxin could be removed in crystalline form and delivered by other vectors (in nature they are delivered within the bacteria). But the factor that is working in the brucellosis is the mycoplasma. Brucellosis is a disease agent that doesn't kill people; it disables them. But they found that if they had mycoplasma at a certain strength, actually ten to the tenth power, it would develop into AIDS, and the person would die from it within a reasonable period of time because it could bypass our natural human defenses. If it was 108, the person would manifest with chronic fatigue syndrome or fibromyalgia. If it was 107, they would present as wasting; they wouldn't die, and they wouldn't be disabled, but they would not be that interested in life, they would waste away (ref. Dr. Donald MacArthur of the Pentagon appearing before a Congressional Committee, June 9, 1969, Department of Defense Appropriations, p.114, 129). Most of us have never heard of brucellosis because it largely disappeared when they began pasteurizing milk, which was the carrier. One salt shaker of this pure disease in a crystalline form could sicken the entire population of Canada. It is absolutely deadly, not in terms of killing the body, but in terms of disabling the body. The advantage of this crystalline disease agent is that it does not show up in blood and tissue tests because the bacteria has disappeared and only the pure disease agent remains. So the doctor thinks that it's all in your head. CRYSTALLINE BRUCELLOSIS AND MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS About three years ago in Rochester, New York, a gentleman gave me a document and told me, 'I was in the U.S. Army, and I was trained in bacteriological warfare. We were handling a bomb filled with brucellosis, only it wasn't brucellosis; it was a brucellosis toxin in crystalline form. We were spraying it on the Chinese and North Koreans.' He showed me his certificate listing his training in chemical, biological, and radiological warfare. Then he showed me 16 pages of documents given to him by the U.S. military when he was discharged from the service. It linked brucellosis with multiple sclerosis and stated: 'Veterans with multiple sclerosis, a kind of creeping paralysis developing to a degree of 10% or more disability within two years after separation from active service may be presumed to be service-connected for disability compensation. Compensation is payable to eligible veterans whose disabilities are due to service.' In other words, 'If you become ill with multiple sclerosis, it is because you were handling this brucellosis and we will give you a pension. Don't go raising any fuss about it.' The government of the United States, in this official document revealed evidence of the cause of multiple sclerosis, but they didn't make it known to the public, or to your doctor. In a 1958 report, Drs. Kyger and Haden suggest '?the possibility that multiple sclerosis might be a central nervous system manifestation of chronic brucellosis'. Testing approximately 113 MS patients, they found that almost 95% also tested positive for brucellosis. We have a document from a medical journal which concludes that one out of 500 people who had brucellosis would develop what they called neurobrucellosis, in other words, brucellosis in the brain which settles in the lateral ventricles where the disease multiple sclerosis is basically located. CONTAMINATION OF CAMP DETRICK LAB WORKERS A report from the New England Journal of Medicine, 1948, Vol.236, p.741 called 'Acute Brucellosis Among Laboratory Workers' shows us how actively dangerous this agent is. The laboratory workers were from Camp Detrick, Frederick, Maryland where they were developing biological weapons. Even though these laboratory workers had been vaccinated, wore rubberized suits and masks, and worked through holes in the compartment, many of them came down with this awful disease because it is so absolutely and terrifyingly infectious. The article was written by Lt. Calderone Howell, Marine Corps, Captain Edward Miller, Marine Corps, Lt. Emily Kelly, United States Naval Reserve and Captain Henry Bookman. They were all military personnel engaged in making the disease agent brucellosis into a more effective biological weapon. III - COVERT TESTING OF THE MYCOPLASMA TESTING BRUCELLOSIS UPON AN UNSUSPECTING PUBLIC Documented evidence proves that the biological weapons they were developing were tested on the public in various communities without their knowledge or consent. The government knew that crystalline brucellosis would cause disease in humans. Now they needed to determine how it spread, and the best way to disperse it. They tested dispersal methods for Brucella suis and Brucella melitensis at Dugway Proving Ground, Utah, June and September 1952. Probably, 100% of us now are infected with Brucella suis and Brucella melitensis. (ref. p.135, table 4 of Special Virus Cancer Program: Progress Report 8) . Another government document recommended the genesis of open air vulnerability tests, and covert research and development programs to be conducted by the army and supported by the Central Intelligence Agency. At that time, the government of Canada was asked by the government of the United States to cooperate in testing weaponized brucellosis, and Canada cooperated fully with the government of the United States. They wanted to determine (i) if mosquitoes will carry the disease and (ii) if the air will carry it. A government report stated that '?open air testing of infectious biological agents is considered essential to an ultimate understanding of biological warfare potentialities because of the many unknown factors affecting the degradation of micro-organisms in the atmosphere'. TESTING BRUCELLOSES VIA MOSQUITO VECTOR IN PUNTA GORDA A report from The New England Journal of Medicine, August 22, 1957, p.362 reveals that one of the first outbreaks of chronic fatigue syndrome was in Punta Gorda, Florida, back in 1957. It was a strange coincidence that a week before these people came down with chronic fatigue syndrome, there was a huge influx of mosquitoes. The National Institutes of Health claimed that the mosquitoes came from a forest fire 30 miles away. When the forest fire broke out, the mosquitoes all said, 'Well, let's go over to Punta Gorda - there will be a bunch of people over there, we can have a picnic, and then we will go home'. The truth is that those mosquitoes were infected in Canada by Dr. J.B. Reed at Queen's University. They were bred in Belleville, Ontario, and taken down and released in Punta Gorda. Within a week, the first five cases ever of chronic fatigue syndrome were reported to the local clinic in Punta Gorda, and it continued until finally 450 people were ill with the disease. TESTING BRUCELLOSIS VIA MOSQUITO VECTOR IN ONTARIO The government of Canada established the Dominion Parasite Laboratory in Belleville, Ontario, and raised 100 million mosquitoes a month which were shipped to Queen's University and certain other facilities to be infected with this disease agent. The mosquitoes were then let loose in certain communities in the middle of the night so they could determine how many people would become ill with chronic fatigue syndrome, or fibromyalgia, which was the first disease to show. One of the communities they tested it on was the St. Lawrence Seaway valley all the way from Kingston to Cornwall in 1984. They let out absolutely hundreds of millions of infected mosquitoes. Over 700 people in the next four or five weeks developed myalgic encephalomyelitis, or chronic fatigue syndrome. IV - OTHER SECRET GOVERNMENT TESTING MAD COW DISEASE IN THE FORE INDIAN TRIBE At the infamous Japanese Camp 731 in Manchuria, they contaminated prisoners of war with certain disease agents. They also established a research camp in New Guinea in 1942, and experimented upon the Fore Indian tribe, and inoculated them with a minced-up version of the brains of diseased sheep containing the visna virus which causes mad cow disease (Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease which is known to you as mad cow disease, but which was known to the Fore Indian tribe as kuru). About five or six years later, after the Japanese had been driven out, the poor people of the Fore tribe developed what they called kuru which was their word for wasting, and they began to shake, lose their appetites, and die. The autopsies revealed that their brains had literally turned to mush. They had contracted mad cow disease from the Japanese experiments. When World War II ended, the Japanese General Doctor who was in charge of biological warfare experimentations in Japan, Dr. Ishii Shiro, was captured. They gave him the choice of a job with the United States army or execution as a war criminal. Not surprisingly, Dr. Ishii Shiro chose to work with the United States military to demonstrate how they had created mad cow disease in the Fore Indian tribe. In 1957, when the disease was beginning to blossom in full among these Fore Indian people, Dr. Carleton Gajdusek of the National Institutes of Health of the U.S. headed down to New Guinea to to determine how the minced-up brains of the visna-infected sheep affected these people. He spent a couple of years in New Guinea studying the Fore tribe, wrote an extensive report on it, and won the Nobel Prize for 'discovering' kuru disease (also known as mad cow or Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease) in the Fore Indian tribe in New Guinea. TESTING CARCINOGENS IN RUSSIA In 1953, the Americans developed a carcinogenic chemical which they wanted to test, but they didn't want to test it in the United States so they flew over Russia, accidentally wandered off course, and sprayed this stuff. Many people started getting cancer. And the U.S. had some jokes about this. One American researcher, Dr. Maurice Hilleman of Merck, Sharp and Dohme, joked, 'We are going to win the next Olympics because all the Russians are going to turn up with 40-pound tumours.' They thought it was a big joke. TESTING CARCINOGENS IN WINNIPEG Next they said, 'How about testing it in Canada?' In 1953, the U.S. asked the government of Canada if they could test this carcinogenic chemical over the city of Winnipeg. It was a big city with 500,000 people, miles from anywhere. They sprayed the chemical in a 1,000% attenuated form, which they said would be so watered down that nobody would get very sick. However, if people came to clinics with a sniffle, a sore throat, or ringing in their ears, the researchers would be able to determine what percentage would have developed cancer if it had been full strength. When we located evidence that the Americans had tested this carcinogenic chemical over the city of Winnipeg in 1953, and informed the government that we had this evidence, they denied it. However, finally, on May 15, 1997, a story out of the Canadian Press in Washington, D.C. by Robert Russo, published in the Toronto Star, stated that the Pentagon of the United States admitted that in 1953 they had obtained permission from the government of Canada to fly over the city of Winnipeg and spray this crap out, and it sifted down on kids going to school, housewives hanging out their laundry, and people going to work. US Army planes and trucks released the chemical 36 times between July and August 1953. The chemical used was zinc cadmium sulfide, a carcinogen. They got their statistics, which indicated that if it had been full strength, approximately a third of the population of Winnipeg would have developed cancers over the next five years. The Pentagon called a press conference to admit what they had done. One professor, Dr. Hugh Fudenberg, MD, who was nominated twice for the Nobel Prize wrote a magazine article which stated that the Pentagon has come clean on this because two researchers up in Sudbury, Ontario, Don Scott and his son Bill Scott had been revealing this to the public. The US Army actually conducted a whole series of simulated germ warfare tests in Winnipeg. The Pentagon lied about the tests to the mayor, saying that they were testing a chemical fog over the city, which would protect Winnipeg in the event of a nuclear attack.

A report commissioned by US Congress, chaired by Dr. Rogene Henderson, lists 32 American towns and cities used as test sites as well. V - BRUCELLOSIS MYCOPLASMA AND DISEASE AIDS The AIDS pathogen was created out of a brucellosis bacteria mutated with a visna virus; then the toxin was removed as a DNA particle called a mycoplasma. They used the same mycoplasma to develop disabling diseases like MS, Crohn's colitis, Lyme disease etc. In a United States congressional document of a meeting held June 9, 1969, the Pentagon delivered a report to Congress about biological weapons (described on page 129 of the document). The Pentagon stated, 'We are continuing to develop disabling weapons.' Dr. MacArthur, who was in charge of the research said, 'We are developing a new lethal weapon, a synthetic biological agent that does not naturally exist, and for which no natural immunity could have been acquired.' Think about it. If you have a deficiency of acquired immunity, you have an acquired immunity deficiency. Plain as that. AIDS. In laboratories throughout the United States and a certain number in Canada, including the University of Alberta, the U.S. government provided the leadership for the development of the AIDS virus for the purpose of population control. After they had it perfected, they sent medical teams from the Centers for Disease Control to Africa and other mid-eastern countries where they thought the population was becoming too large. They gave them all a free vaccination for smallpox. Five years after receiving this smallpox vaccination, 60% of them were suffering from AIDS. They tried to blame it on a monkey, which is nonsense. There was a report in the newspapers a while back about a professor at the University of Arkansas who claimed that while studying the tissues of a dead chimpanzee, she found the HIV virus. The chimpanzee that she had tested was born in the United States 23 years earlier. It had lived its entire life in a U.S. military laboratory where it was used as an experimental animal for the development of these diseases. When it died, its body was shipped to a storage place where it was deep-frozen and stored in case they wanted to analyze it later. Then they decided that they didn't have enough space for it, so they said, 'Anybody want this dead chimpanzee?' and this researcher from Arkansas said, 'Yes. Send it down to the University of Arkansas. We are happy to get anything that we can get.' They shipped it down and she found the HIV virus in it. That virus was acquired by that chimpanzee in the laboratories where it was tested. CHRONIC FATIGUE Chronic fatigue syndrome is more accurately called myalgic encephalomyelitis, not chronic fatigue syndrome. That nomenclature was given by the National Institutes of Health in the United States because they wanted to downgrade and belittle the disease. An MRI of the brain of a teenage girl who had chronic fatigue syndrome displayed a great many scars or punctate lesions in the left frontal lobe area where portions of the brain had literally dissolved and had been replaced by scar tissue. This caused cognitive impairment, memory impairment, etc. And what was the cause of the scars? The mycoplasma. So there is very concrete physical evidence of these tragic diseases even though doctors continue to say they don't know where it comes from or what they can do about it APPEALS TO CANADA PENSION Many people with chronic fatigue syndrome, myalgic encephalo-myelitis and fibromyalgia who apply to the Canada Pension Plan will be turned down because they cannot prove that they are ill. Over the past year I have conducted several appeals to Canada Pension and Workers Compensation on behalf of people who have been turned down. I provided documented evidence of these illnesses, and they were all granted their pensions on the basis of the evidence that I provided. In March of last year, for example, I appealed to the Workers' Compensation on behalf of a lady with fibromyalgia who had been denied her pension back in 1993. The vice-chairman of the board came up to Sudbury to hear the appeal, and I showed him a number of documents which proved that this lady was physically ill with fibromyalgia. It was a disease which caused physical damage, and the disease agent was a mycoplasma. The guy listened for three hours and then he said to me, 'Mr. Scott, how is it I have never heard of any of this before? I said, 'We brought a top authority in this area into Sudbury to speak on this subject and not a single solitary doctor came to that presentation.' VI - TESTING FOR THE PRESENCE OF MYCOPLASMA IN YOUR BODY THE POLYMERASE CHAIN REACTION TEST Information is not generally available about this agent, because first of all, the mycoplasma is such an infinitely small disease agent. A hundred years ago certain medical theoreticians conceived that there must be something smaller than the bacteria and the virus, which are the most common living forms of disease agents. This pathogenic organism is so infinitely small that normal blood and tissue tests will not reveal the source of the disease. Your doctor may diagnose you with Alzheimer's and he will say, 'Golly, we don't know where Alzheimer's comes from. All we know is that your brain begins to deteriorate, cells rupture, the myelin sheath around the nerves dissolves, and so on.' Or if you have chronic fatigue syndrome, the doctor will not be able to find any cause for your illness with ordinary blood and tissue tests. This mycoplasma couldn't be detected until about 30 years ago when they developed the polymerase chain reaction test in which they examine a sample of your blood, remove damaged particles, and subject that damaged particle to a polymerase chain reaction. This causes the DNA in the particle to break down. Then they place it in a nutrient which causes the DNA to grow back into its original form. If they get enough of it they can recognize what it is, and determine whether brucellosis or another kind of agent is behind that particular mycoplasma. THE BLOOD TEST If anybody in your family has myalgic encephalomyelitis, fibromyalgia, multiple sclerosis, or Alzheimer's, you can send a blood test to Dr. Les Simpson in New Zealand. If you are ill with these diseases, your red blood cells will not be normal donut-shaped blood cells capable of being compressed and squeezed through the capillaries, but will swell up like cherry-filled donuts, which cannot be compressed. The blood cells become enlarged and distended because the only way the mycoplasma can exist is by uptaking preformed sterols from the host cell. One of the best sources of preformed sterols is cholesterol, and cholesterol is what gives your blood cells flexibility. If the cholesterol is taken out by the mycoplasma, the red blood cell swells up, doesn't go through and the person begins to feel all the aches and pains, and all the damage it causes to the brain, the heart, the stomach, the feet and the whole body because blood and oxygen is cut off. And that is why people with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome have such a terrible time. When the blood is cut off from the brain, punctate lesions appear, because those parts of the brain die. It will get into portions of the heart muscle, especially the left ventricle, and those cells will die. Certain people have cells in the lateral ventricles of the brain that have a genetic predisposition to admit the mycoplasma, and it causes the lateral ventricles to deteriorate and die and this leads to multiple sclerosis which will progress until they are totally disabled and frequently die prematurely. It will get into the lower bowel and parts of the lower bowel will die and cause colitis. All of these diseases are caused by the degenerating properties of the mycoplas%00..???%00%00%00#P.¾i? a gentleman.¹e?Sudbury phoned me and told me he had fibromyalgia. He applied for Canada Pension and was turned down because his doctor said it was all in his head and there was no external evidence. I gave him the proper form and a vial, and he sent his blood to Dr. Les Simpson of New Zealand to be tested. He did this with his family doctor's approval, and the results from Dr. Simpson showed that only 4% of his red blood cells were functioning normally and carrying the appropriate amount of oxygen to his poor body, whereas 83% were distended, enlarged and hardened, and wouldn't go through the capillaries without an awful lot of pressure and trouble. This is the physical evidence of the damage that is done. THE ECG TEST You can also ask your doctor to give you a 24-hour Holter ECG. You know, of course, that an electrocardiogram is a measure of your heart beat, which shows what is going on in the right ventricle, the left ventricle, and so on. Tests show that 100% of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia have an irregular heart beat. At various periods of time, during the 24 hours, the heart, instead of working happily away, going 'bump-BUMP, bump-BUMP', every now and again, it will go 'buhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuhbuh'. The T-wave (the waves are called P, Q, R, S, and the last one is T) is normally a peak, and then the wave levels off and starts with the P-wave again. In chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia patients, the T-wave flattens off, or actually inverts. That means the blood in the left ventricle is not being squeezed up through the aorta and around through the body. My client did this test, and lo and behold, the test results stated: 'The shape of T and S-T suggest left ventricle strain pattern, although voltage and so on is normal'. The doctor had no clue as to why the T-wave was not working properly. I analyzed the report of the patient who had been turned down by Canada Pension and sent it back to them. They wrote back and said, 'It looks like we may have made a mistake. We are going to give you a hearing and you can explain this to us in more detail.' So it is not all in your imagination. There is actual physical damage to the heart. The left ventricle muscles do show scarring. That is why many people are diagnosed with a heart condition when they first develop fibromyalgia, but it's only one of several problems because the mycoplasma can do all kinds of damage. BLOOD VOLUME TEST You can also ask your doctor for a blood volume test. Every human being requires a certain amount of blood per pound of body weight, and it has been observed that people with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, multiple sclerosis and others do not have the normal blood volume their body needs to function properly. Doctors aren't normally aware of this. This test measures the amount of blood in the human body by taking out five cc, putting a tracer in it, and then putting it back in the body. One hour later take out five cc again and look for the tracer. The thicker the blood and the lower the blood volume, the more tracer you will find. The analysis of one of my clients stated: 'This patient was referred for red cell mass study. The red cell volume is 16.9 ml per kg of body weight. The normal range is 25 to 35 ml. per kg.' This guy has 36% less blood in his body than the body needs to function'. And the doctor hadn't even known the test existed. If you lost 36% of your blood in an accident, do you think your doctor would tell you that you are all right, just take up line dancing and you will get over it? They would rush you to the nearest hospital and start infusing you with blood transfusions. These tragic people with these awful diseases are functioning with anywhere from 7 to 50% less blood than their bodies need to function. UNDOING THE DAMAGE The body undoes the damage itself. The scarring in the brain of people with chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia will be repaired. There is cellular repair going on all the time. But the mycoplasma has moved on to the next cell. In the early stages of a disease, doxycycline may reverse the disease. It is one of the tetracycline antibiotics, but it is not bactericidal; it is bacteriostatic. It stops the growth of the mycoplasma, and if it is stopped long enough, then the immune system takes over.

(Nicholson, G.L., Doxycycline treatment and Desert Storm, JAMA, 1995, 273: 618-619), GULF WAR RESEARCH Professor Garth Nicholson, Ph.D., of the Institute for Molecular Medicine is one of the top experts on mycoplasma. He has been given an $8 million grant to study 450 Gulf War veterans, because Gulf War illness is caused by the mycoplasma. Dr. Les Simpson has done most of the research in detecting the disease by the polymerase chain reaction blood test. You may contact Dr. Nicholson at 15162 Triton Lane, Huntington Beach, Ca, 92649-1401, tel 714-903-2900. In summary, there is a disease agent that is called a mycoplasma All of these neurodegenerative systemic diseases are caused by a particle of a bacterial DNA, a mycoplasma, that enters into the cells of living organisms and takes the cells apart, sterol by sterol, leaving scar tissue, and causing all the range of symptoms that you see in people with these diseases. The military and the National Institutes of Health and the government are all dedicated to keeping this mycoplasma as covert as they possibly can For more information and references, please refer to The Brucellosis Triangle and The Extremely Unfortunate Skull Valley Incident by Don Scott and William Scott, both available at Consumer Health Organization. Other recommended reading is Osler's Web by Hillary Johnson and Emerging Viruses: Aids and Ebola by Leonard Horowitz. Don Scott also produces The Journal of Degenerative Diseases. You may contact Donald Scott at: 190 Mountain St., Ste. 405, Sudbury, Ontario, Canada P3B 4G2. 705-670-0180. Note: Dr. David Webster at Sudbury General Hospital, a wonderful person, with whom I have had conversations about these awful diseases can tell your doctor about the Blood Volume test. Article Information Volume 23 Issue 6 June,2000 Search For: search Recommended Books The Brucellosis Triangle SCOTT, Donald, MD, & William The Extremely Unfortunate Skull Valley Incident SCOTT, Donald, MD, & William ?ome | top of page who we are | total health convention | books & tapes | articles | membership | links | contact us Site created/maintained by Emitting Media Last modified on Wed Feb 13 23:20:59 2002 ¼?

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Date: Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 21:24:11 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: health fan
Subject: Re: Consumer Health Article
Message:
Thanks. That's a hell of a lot to read through so I've saved it. I have chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. Perhaps there's something there which will illuminate things.
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Date: Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 22:33:09 (EST)
From: health fan
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: yea, sorry about the double up!
Message:
There's theres some great stuff on those things Dave ( I was interested in the MS information)

It's not that long in total. My clipboard started going crazy when I was copying the article (too big it said) and I clicked too many times when pasting so I think it's repeated - at least twice. So it's NOT actually that huge!

Just find the beginning again once and delete the rest.

glad it's been a help.
cheers,

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Date: Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 20:49:25 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Qs re M, Sat Pal and Mata Ji
Message:
Has anybody, in the past 20 years or so, ever heard Maharaji discuss Sat Pal? How about Mata Ji before or after she died? I doubt he ever talked about them 'publicly' but in smaller groups maybe. Anyone?

Also, to anyone's knowledge, have Maharaji and Sat Pal ever spoken in person since the big blow-up court case in India in the mid-70s?

And when was the last time Maharaji spoke to his mother before she died? Also, did Maharaji go to her funeral? What year did Mata Ji die?

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 07:41:10 (EST)
From: Opie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: DOD Nov 25th, 1991
Message:
Joe you asked:
What year did Mata Ji die?

From manavdharam.org

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She passed away on 25th November, 1991, but her work is being continued and expanded by Mata Amrita Ji (wife of Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj) and Mata Mangla Ji (wife of Shri Bhole Ji). As Shri Amrita Ji said in tribute, 'Shri Mata Ji was the embodiment of motherhood. She had all that a mother should have - love, mercy, grace, sacrifice, devotion and wisdom. She was the emblem of all virtues.'

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So three cheers for Mata Amrita Ji and Mata Mangla Ji. Gee dontcha just love tradition and keeping it in the family!

Op
[ Mata Ji sketch ]

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 07:49:43 (EST)
From: Barf Special
Email: None
To: Opie
Subject: I can't believe I kissed her foot
Message:
and Satpal's too...of course, he was then playing the role of Bal Bagwan Ji...gotta go, I had oatmeal for breakfast
[ Graphic Link ]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 21:13:43 (EST)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Barf Special
Subject: Was she dead at the time?(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 21:23:32 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: I can't believe you asked that? }) [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 19:39:32 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Barf Special
Subject: Well, at least she got this right . . .
Message:
That Maharaji is a playboy and NOT the Perfect Master!
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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 10:47:34 (EST)
From: Lance Boyle
Email: None
To: Barf Special
Subject: Is that the Boil.....
Message:
mentioned in a thread above, that needs lancing?
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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 07:09:25 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: on the subject of the court case:
Message:
on the subject of the court case (re. the splitting up of DLM):

I vaguely remember it being reported that, just before the summing up, the judge asked both Prem Pal and Sat Pal (a.k.a. Bal Bhagwanji) to answer the same question. I think it was along the lines of 'what's the worst crime a human can commit?'

If my memory serves, Prem Pal said something like 'Not realising this Knowledge' (typical!) and his brother said something about envy.

Like I said, it's only a vague memory. Anyone got a more accurate version of events? Please?

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 16:24:43 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: What I heard
Message:
'the greatest crime a human can commit'

Maharaji: Not having at least $10 million to back up the other $10 million you have.

Sat Pal: It's a tie between not wearing cool glasses and the combined weight of yourself and your wife being less than 850 lbs.

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 10:24:02 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Here's what I was told
Message:
I heard that Prem Pal said 'Forgetting God'
Sat Pal said 'jealosy'

The judge said 'You are both wrong, it is lying in the Name of God'

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:43:18 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: the judge wins
Message:
and that's why he's the judge, and they aren't.
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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 15:56:02 (EST)
From: Ed
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: I was told that......
Message:
M's reply to the judge was that the greatest crime was 'To impersonate the Pefect Master'. At which point a hush came over the entire courtroom. A true Perry Mason moment ! LOL!!
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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 15:49:35 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Here's what I was told
Message:
That rings a bell.

'Lying in the name of God' -

though I remember the judge's words to be more of an indictment of people (like M) who claim (as he did at the time) that they speak for 'God'.

'The greatest crime is to deceive in God's name' - could it have been?

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 16:01:21 (EST)
From: ChrisP
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Here's what I was told
Message:
You would think that jury debate would have, if not for the first time, raised the possibility in Mj's mind that he could be mistaken (that's assuming he started out sincerely believing it). But instead, I guess it suited him to keep the horse's blinders. Either that, or he still believed the commandment 'never leave room for doubt in your mind'.

Besides, why were the details (still unknownst to premies) of this trial withheld/hushed?

ChrisP, all I can do is speculate

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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 16:02:18 (EST)
From: ChrisP
Email: None
To: ChrisP
Subject: make that: here's what I was NOT told (nt)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 15:45:52 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: That's hilarious Jethro [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 01:28:30 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: program in SF in about 1986
Message:
Joe,

There was an SF program at the Hyatt Regency (Embarcadero 4) in about 1986. That was the first I learned that Mata Ji died. M talked about making up with her, I vaguely recall, and said some other things about her. Actually, it's the only M video I own but when I tried to watch it once, years ago, it was too boring.

Francesca

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Date: Tues, Feb 12, 2002 at 23:23:08 (EST)
From: Mike Finch
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Qs re M, Sat Pal and Mata Ji
Message:
And when was the last time Maharaji spoke to his mother before she died? Also, did Maharaji go to her funeral?

Yes, M did go to his mother's funeral (well, cremation - her body was burned Hindu-fashion). And all 4 brothers were there together - but what passed between them, or even whether they spoke to each other at all, I do not know.

On one occasion I told Maharaji a story of something that happened to me when I was travelling with Sat Pal ('BBJ' to friends !) and so mentioned him. He made no comment - kept a real poker face - so I have no idea what he felt about the alusion.

That's all the info I know !

-- Mike

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 04:59:38 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: Qs re M, Sat Pal and Mata Ji
Message:
I remember reading on this forum a report from someone about Maharaji and Raja Ji coming back on the plane from MataJi's funeral/cremation , and MJ asking RJ, after a long, pregnant, pensive silence on the ride,
'Do you think she experienced gratitude?'

and Raja JI reportedly lit into his brother with an explosive berating, for bringing up such a question.
no details of what he berated him for, tho.
could have meant anything from 'how could you doubt such a thing?!'
to' you just can't leave it alone, can you! why can't you just let us all have our own feelings in this time of personal grief!?'

to' What arrogance of you! Why must you always be turning everything to point at yourself!? Haven't we heard enough about you, and your relentless carping on 'gratitude'? Can't you ever think about anybody else but yourself?! What an insult of you to ask!'

If only Raja Ji could grow enough backbone to leave and find himself a real life....
He's probably the only person on earth who could tell his brother to his face what everybody else would like so much to lambaste him with. And Prem Pal would have to listen, because he knows Raja Ji has been there, all the way back to before they received Knowledge.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 16:11:32 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Wow Janet! sometimes you nail it
Message:
Really, your posts are always, interesting, but sometimes they are interesting and rock and roll spot on!

Wow stimulating and introspective thoughts you have, and so darn relative.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 14, 2002 at 09:38:13 (EST)
From: Bread and Butter
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: RJ leave style he's become accustomed?nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Feb 15, 2002 at 16:11:30 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bread and Butter
Subject: RJ: another one on the cult family dole [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Feb 13, 2002 at 13:59:57 (EST)
From: A Friend
Email: None
To: Mike Finch
Subject: Re: Qs re M, Sat Pal and Mata Ji
Message:
Interesting that Bhole Ji is on the site and speaking out. I thought someone said he was a taxi driver in the U.S.?

A Friend

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