Bai Ji -:- Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 02:24:20 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Welcome Bai Ji - great post -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:28:03 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:38:12 (EDT)

__ AJW -:- Hi Bai -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:00:36 (EDT)

__ WMary -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:42:27 (EDT)

__ janet -:- you're a good you! -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:08:21 (EDT)

__ btdt -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:42:52 (EDT)

__ __ Brian Smith -:- very Clearly stated btdt -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:40:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: very Clearly stated btdt -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:47:28 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- That's the truth, btdt -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 03:48:21 (EDT)

__ Francesca :C) -:- This thread is ***BEST OF FORUM*** -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:38:41 (EDT)

__ Brian Smith -:- Good Morning, Bai Ji -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 19:06:03 (EDT)

__ Cl -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 16:05:48 (EDT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:20:56 (EDT)

__ __ JHB -:- Welcome Bai Ji and CL -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 19:58:13 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- You sound tres cool, fool -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:14:09 (EDT)

__ silvia -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 07:03:31 (EDT)

__ Peg -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 05:57:40 (EDT)

__ __ JohnT -:- Awakening -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 15:55:55 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- You guys are really what it's all about, huh? -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:07:09 (EDT)

__ __ __ such -:- yep, ain't it true! -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:05:34 (EDT)

__ Loaf -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 02:55:54 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:15:47 (EDT)

__ __ Gregg -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 11:52:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ michael donner -:- Re: Waking Up -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:29:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Donner, this post floored me -:- Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:18:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ AJW -:- The Cultural Revolution Within. -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:17:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Donner -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:19:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I can relate -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 13:12:16 (EDT)

__ __ Loaf's biggest fan -:- WOW !! WHAT A FAB POST LOAF ***(nt) -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 08:49:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Yes it was FAB -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:51:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ Chuck S. -:- It IS a FAB post... -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 14:58:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- awww.... -:- Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 16:43:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Bryn -:- Owning it -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:03:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: Owning it -:- Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 08:35:30 (EDT)

Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 02:24:20 (EDT)
From: Bai Ji
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Waking Up
Message:

Hi Everyone, this is my first posting and I'm not very sure as to how to go about it. I have been reading for a few months , usually at the end of Events when I am angry at incongruities and something within me cannot deny what I feel and understand. You are all correct, of course having gone through this process yourself, in expressing the feelings of fear and aloneness such an idea as leaving everything you have held most precious, invokes.
I have been a premie since I was 13, 28yrs even though I had to wait to receive K due to my age I had trust that it was all perfect and that I was in His Grace. My main devotion was to be with M and devote my whole life to SS&M to him. I have over the years been involved in many areas of service, some in close proximity but I am not what you call a PAM. I guess i am just getting brave enough to stick my toes in the water of not denying the facts. Reading the 'Michaels' and others accounts, has definitely allowed me to draw my own conclusions. I hate the Grasping and Secrecy that has always been a part of the Heirachy and just was saddened that i didnt seem to have what it took to be a good devotee. I am grateful to those of you who are taking the courage to honestly express all that you have experienced. I don't want to live a lie and i dont want to waste my life anymore than i may already have. Yes these are very confusing times and I shall feel my way using what is left of my childlike heart and hopefully, smart brain.anyway thanks again and I hope some more first hand current facts from PAM becomes available.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 22:28:03 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Welcome Bai Ji - great post
Message:

I guess I won't be able to use my funny alias ''Bai Ghosh Ji'' anymore now that you are here. Have fun with all these wonderful people here.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:38:12 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:

Welcome, Bai,

It's wonderful to watch (read:) about someone coming out of the coma of the Maharajism cult.

By your name, I assume you spent most of your life being devoted and loving Maharaji.

Don't worry, being a good devotee is a fallacy. There is no such thing; it was one of the ways in which Maharaji duped us into feeling bad about ourselves.

Be proud of yourself for having the courage to even read the site. There is so much material on the EPO site, and of course, here, at this forum where many of us have become friends. There is a lot of support here of the exiting kind.

I hope you consider posting again. Trust us too be kind. I know I'd love to hear of your association (service) to Maharaji.

And it's absolutely fine to become angry directly at him (you won't get the face-to-face chance), yet, part of the exiting process can involve anger, fear (sometimes irrational based on what he told us if we ever left), and sorrow, too.

I've cried many tears over the realization that Maharaji really is a fraud and for the years of my life lost to involvement with him.

You said: ''...I shall feel my way using what is left of my childlike heart and hopefully, smart brain.''

Don't worry about it. Being in a personality cult for so many years will make your mind/brain quite numb. Exercise it! I have found that reading a lot helps to stimulate those lazy braincells that were taken up by my time with m.

Welcome again, be well, be good to yourself, and of all things, do not feel guilty...the only guilt here belongs to Maharaji, because he lied to us for so long.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:00:36 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Hi Bai
Message:

Hi Bai,

How refreshing to read your post. Welcome back to the crazy old world, full of nutty folk, tv and sunshine.

Did you spend your premie years in the UK? If so, I may know you.

Anyway, whoever you are, wherever you are, you're doing the right thing.

I raise my can of Stella Artois to Freedom.

Bollocks to the Gods. Long Live the Humans.

Anth getting into a jumping up and down yelling slogans type of mood.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:42:27 (EDT)
From: WMary
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:

Bai ji, did you once (or do you still) cook for the Master? I may have met you once.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:08:21 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: you're a good you!
Message:

sever yourself from that poisonous, guilt laden fake judgement that 'you're not a good devotee'. it's a false assessment of you. you are you. that in itself is the good. whatever you sense or feel or see or think, is the right thing. your equipmnt works. theres not as damn thing wrong with you and there never was.

welcome. come right this way. welcome back to your own life.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:42:52 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:

It's a little scary, isn't it? I've not been here long but it seems like a year since I came here looking for facts. Not truth, just facts. The facts were so glaringly blatant that the truth just slapped me in the face with a real sting. I couldn't believe what I was reading about Maharaji and Elan Vital, except for one thing, Michael Donner and Dettmers. I knew Donner from his initiator time and I knew he was a very sincere person. I only knew Dettmer from reputation, but it was a solid reputation.

Their words rang true, as did the others who post here. Still, it was hard for me to begin to know how deep the deception goes. And definitely, the deception of the heart is the hardest to overcome. I struggle with it everyday, some more than others.

I'm continually surprised how bare I feel in facing the world. Knowledge was like those expensive cashmere-type shawls M gives the instructors. Those pashima (sp) things. It wrapped me up so wherever I went, it was with me, so I thought and felt, giving me license to blaze through the world. Yesterday I met a young mother, less than thirty years old, who went for a doctor's appointment and was thrown into the hospital for chemo, radiation and major organ removal. I saw the look on the doctor's face and heard her sobs as he left the room.

In the past, that feeling , you know the one, would bolster itself up, and on I'd go, meeting such a situation head on. But there I sat, thinking, ' Great, what do I have to offer this girl? I can't tell her the lord of universe is here, don't worry, take this knowledge, it will show you the preciousness of your life.' No sireeee, not anymore. So I just asked the universe for something, cuz I don't even know what's in me anymore. I just went and talked to her. I let her talk, and talk, and talk, and talk some more. Disability check was cut off. No problem, get the social worker on it. Have to stay for six weeks as out patient in a Ronald McDonald type house. No problem, acutally I think it's a big problem and the hospital is insane, and I'm working on that one, but lets just get her food everyday cuz she can't cook her own. Catholic church? They don't do that anymore. Well someone is come hell or high water. Her family is two hours away and her children are going crazy without her. So she gets to come here and stay by herself undergoing these treatments in a stange town totally alone. Her mother told her, 'If god wants you, he'll take you. If he doesn't he won't. You have to put your faith in god.' Of course, I'm asking things like where do you live and work, what water do you drink?

It's insidious how deep all this goes. Everything we've been gets thrown for a bit of a loop. It's impossible to 'just walk away' like we got a bad meal at a restaurant and we just push the chair back from the table. It's a little deeper than that. I'm just glad people post here because their perspective and honesty and humor help me enormously. It gives me hope, that I'm not as alone as I feel without M and knowledge.

Now the earth and flowers are calling me. Dirt is calling me. I'm gardening these days and having a big closet clean out.

None of my family, and none of my friends, as much as they care about me, can know what I've gone and am still going through. But everyone here does. Just your sharing reaffirms that what I feel is normal, because we all feel such similar things after finding out these facts.
Thank you for being brave and typing your very first words. It's a courageous act.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:40:22 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: very Clearly stated btdt
Message:

I have really appreciated your contributions to this forum and want to acknowledge you for your clarity and courage in confronting the facts about the cult and the guru.

This is the kind of wisdom and knowledge that lights the path for others to follow the steps back to freedom.

Thank you for making the distinction between facts and truth btdt. Premie's don't come here seeking truth, they think they already have found the truth, to argue that point with them is a daunting task.

It is the facts that speak loud and clear, it is the facts that break down the doors of illusion and therin lies the truth. In this case the truth about the cult and m being the lord, him bringing worldpeace, the history of the techniques, m's self absorbed greediness and m's indulgent lifestyle and on and on. Just a pack of lies and beliefs tossed up on m's self serving dishonest agenda, another religion pretending like it isn't.

On the personal level, the facts that I have found about myself and the knowledge is, I always had it before m, and I have even more of it now after m, because he and the cult beliefs that go with him are not in the way to clutter up my life anymore.

I appreciate your insights btdt, they make me think, they inspire me,
and you stick to the facts without freaking out.

You use this forum well my friend
Thank You

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 21:47:28 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: very Clearly stated btdt
Message:

oh my gosh....blush blush.....thank you.

What you say is very true, at least in my case. I saw the EPO site a zillion times whenever I'd log on to M's or Ev's site. Never bothered to bookmark them. And occasionally, like a lot, I'd hit this one by mistake. Seeing the words 'the truth about gm' on the search engine site didn't even interest me. I knew the 'truth' (ha ha ha) so why would I even bother to see what a bunch of 'ex's' had to say? And the pix's didn't look anything like the corporate M I've been seeing. It just seemed outdated and irrelevant. HA HA HA the joke was on me. Once I got in, it was THE most relevent and updated site anywhere concerning M and k and EV. Their web sites are so mod and slick, they get away with a lot of fluff. Pure cotton candy. Looks great. Smells great. Then disinegrates on the tongue and makes ya sick to your stomach.

Thanks for taken the time with yer kind words, sir.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 03:48:21 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: That's the truth, btdt
Message:

No spin, no belief systems, no placebos, no cliches, no spiritual unprovable mumbo-jumbo. It's not easy but it feels cleaner and more honest. Thanks.

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:38:41 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: This thread is ***BEST OF FORUM***
Message:

Amazing, you guys! Heart-felt, articulate, insightful. I could just go on and on. And I haven't even read all the posts yet!

Love you all,

Francesca

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 19:06:03 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Good Morning, Bai Ji
Message:

And thank you for posting such a candid expression of your new outlook on the events of the past 28 years.

I just recently woke up myself after 29 years in the cult, and much of what you stated in your post and what you are currently going through I strongly identify with.

It is hard to define the sense of loss that I felt exiting the cult, I had such a strong emotional investment into the whole belief stucture and M. I see it now for the crutch that is really was and also on the positive side for the learning process that was/is.

Once I settled my emotional issues, said goodbye, shed a few tears etc. I launched into a whole new world of freedom and experiences and I see no end in sight.

What is clear now more than ever, is that I gained more and learned more through friends, aquantainces and personal experiences than I ever did from the Guru.

That continues today in my recovery from the cult, the desire to know the truth was once again ignited here. I learn a lot from the people who post and visit here, so please stay around for a while and share.

The biggest problem that I initially had to overcome was to rediscover the desire to seek the truth with an open mind, to confront inquiry and face the facts about the cult and the guru as I had covered up that part of myself with all of the patterned cult propaganda and answers.

You seem like you have a good understanding of yourself today, trust me, you will find the answers as to what is next for you from here, no door closes without another one opening.

Enjoy the freedom of being able to fully express yourself freely with out any cult baggage, Life is much greater than what has been served up on this agenda, there is a whole new universe of knowledge and experiences waiting beyond premiedom.

Thank you for your sincere and honest post Bai Ji

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 16:05:48 (EDT)
From: Cl
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:

Good for you, that you decided to listen to whatever inside has led you to whatever new experiences await you. You sound like a very courageous, and healthy person. I do hope that amidst your innocent curiosity to explore the new world, you give yourself credit for all you've done, rather than punish yourself thinking you've wasted time. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't, that's of course your call. In any event, the sadness you may feel over lost time is a difficult enough challenge to face without getting mad at yourself besides. (of course you can if you want) still, after I left, I realized that regardless of how upset and angry I was at him, I felt an undercurrent of grief that lasted for a long long time. Waves of anger, sadness, hurt, you name it, arose from my gut without my asking. Just as if a friend had died. In fact, one did. The relationship I thought I had was over. I was surprised by how hard I took it, despite the relief and exhileration I had at first. All this may mean nothing to you, as none of these feelings may arise, but your letter and strength of character touched my heart and this is what came out. I wish you the best. CL

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:20:56 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Cl
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:

Hey CL! Are you the CL that i know? If so, why don't you introduce yourself a little bit here? You are a popular historic figure because of those posts. I am certain you will receive great support and welcome and can still remain anon.

love ktd

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 19:58:13 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Cl
Subject: Welcome Bai Ji and CL
Message:

This is what it's all about. I awoke nearly three years ago, and it really was like waking up. A part of me had been closed to me for many years and it was a little scary at first. It's amazing what a little honest truthfulness can do.

Good luck,

John Brauns

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:14:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: You sound tres cool, fool
Message:

You know, funny how this works but it does. For someone who's basically been hoodwinked all your life, you just sound like you've got a really good head on your shoulders. Congratulations, in the deepest sense of the word (actually, I don't know what the deepest send of 'congratulations' is, maybe like a really heavy Happy Birthday or something?)

Did you see the Truman Show?

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 07:03:31 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:

Hi, welcome!

The confusion you may feel at times is normal but the mind settles down eventually.

You may feel confused at times and reasoning, creating a new interpretation of what it meant to be involved with the cult, understanding why you needed 'him' and what you were missing will help you put order in your values and thoughts. Maharaji screws people’s head and it takes time for some of us to heal, more than to others, but you will be fine.

We are doing better “propagation” than him then: One more out!! LOL

Whatever you do, don’t come back. Read as much as you can about cult involvement. I wish you the best Bai Jai. Stick around.

Love,

silvia

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 05:57:40 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:

When I first read EPO I was so hungry for information from pams and such...I needed proof that this was true because IT WAS SO HARD TO BELIEVE!
Slowly as I have started to be able to see the world without looking through the eyes of 'a devotee' I am thinking more in terms of not wanting to be part of a cult (which I now feel it was) and of wanting to have an open questioning mind. I think doubt is OK... it was always there lurking I think but i dealt with it by ignoring, justifying and rationalising. Now I aim to deal with it by trying to get to the bottom of it.
look forward to hearing more from you.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 15:55:55 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Awakening
Message:

If you can bear to laugh, follow the link for something that had Michael Dettmers singing happily, long after he split from the poison poseur.

JohnT
- never a premie
[ Awakening ]

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:07:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: You guys are really what it's all about, huh?
Message:

Isn't that something? The power of information, the power of truth, not as some sort of protected monolith but just as a flood of real thinking, real memory, real ....

It's amazing, really.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:05:34 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: yep, ain't it true!
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 02:55:54 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Bai Ji
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:

hello bai Ji and welcome to this brave new world.

When i first started sevvering my connection with M, I had lots of wonderful feelings, but also I realised how frightened I was..

The roots of premiedom are social, and psychological - but always couched in terms of Mysticism - and i can remember feeling all sorts of anxieties, not realising (and having no support at all) that he had implanted small fears by suggestion ever since I first sat down and absorbed his entire message - sub-text and all .

When we are open, when we are devoted,when we are blissed out, we have no defences, and no objectivity. This is how the techniques work in the 'package' - they soften and open us, so that his words can inform our perception of the world within.

If we had the techniques - AND a context in which we could feel, question, enquire, explore and OWN our 'new world' -we would have emerged from this as different creatures. As it is - he has taken a potentially wonderful opportunity and created a trap out of it.. but lets keep hold of the good stuff and run like hell !

All the best

Loaf

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 01:15:47 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:

Thanks Loaf, this helps me understand a few things in terms that make sense to my muddled brain. Very insightful.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 11:52:23 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:

Adding on to what Loaf said: I've come to find out from chatting with ex-premies on this site that we came to M for many different things. And got them, with varying degrees of success, but always at a great cost.

Things like mystical experience, a sense of belonging, a belief that we were unconditionally loved, a feeling that we were changing an ugly world..things like that. The cost was high, and a lot of internal rationalizing was necessary to hide those costs from ourselves.

Here's one more interesting thing I've learned on this forum: most of us have found ways to get those things we thought only M could give us, in our post-premie years. Better versions, aat less cost.

I've heard about (and experienced!) people getting love from family and friends, mystical experience (M had nothing to do with it!) and on and on - satisfaction without dishonesty.

Good luck, Bai Ji.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 12:29:56 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Waking Up
Message:

hi bai ji, nice to feel your toes dipping into the waters here. i couldn't agree with gregg more. we all came to m for different reasons and got what we were looking for, for awhile at least...and at a high price. i think that is a common denominator for most of us; realizing that the price was too high...too much giving our own power away for me was huge. for others it was too much of (fill in the blank).

i went thru a pretty angry period feeling that i had wasted so many years. but in retrospect (and many others here will/do not agree) i had to burn whatever story was my own out completely enogh to even begin to be able to leave. for me it was the devotee feeling as an indication of self worth. according to a deep seated belief system that i brough into the saga with m to begin with, and that was completely reinforced by all the satsang over so many years...that i couldn't/shouldn't be the master of my own fate...that being a devotee of a master was the highest aspiration i could hope for.

this system...before and during the years in the cult created so much seperation that the pain became too much to deny. the seperation from others (having always to give credit to m and grace, and never each other) and seperation from true self (always giving credit to m and grace and never myself).

which is all to say that the saga served me and my belief system for many years; and because i had to burn thru that system i do not look back and feel any waste...just a process that has made me stronger and healthier.

on thing i pray for these days...sorta like pray for...is to learn in ways that are positive and painless whenever possible. of course that takes careful listening to the subtle voice within that i have gotten to know better since ignoring all the external voices that tend to repeat the pattern i am trying to leave. so many years of being told both directly and indirectly, not to trust myself rather trust in him alone. it took time to transistion into trusting myself, learning to trust myself and not 'him' alone. i wish that i had been more patient with myself during those years of transition...but...here i am today; happy and fulfilled, in service to people and situations around me, actice in building a future together with others.

i even miss sometimes the imagined ease of relying on someone else for the answers for some direction. i have identified that part as a remanent of my childhood still wanting to be parented, guided and sheltered from the big bad world. i see that desire within me still and have patience with it but know that is a small part that stills needs to grow up with the rest of me.

good luck bai ji!

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Date: Tues, Sep 11, 2001 at 16:18:20 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Donner, this post floored me
Message:

Dear Mike,

I've read your post a couple of times and saved it to my hard drive. The feeling of resonation I had when reading it went right out the soles of my feet into the earth, but also up through the top of my head into the heavens.

Especially the part about 'burning out' your own story. I think I burned it out enough to leave but carried it out with me like a little scarred tar baby into some other trips. Maybe I burned it out in my 8-1/2 years of the strict Tibetan Buddhism. I sure hope so.

I think that's why getting on the Forum was such a revelation. Recent exes were talking about the burnout of the Maharaji trip, and I was talking about the burnout process that had gone on leaving M, and leaving other belief systems.

Burn, baby, burn. I can relate to the positive and painless ways of learning. Non-violent learning.

Thanks, Mike

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 16:17:21 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: The Cultural Revolution Within.
Message:

Hi again Mike,

Remember the 'Cultural Revolution'? I'm having an internal one.

I put on my Dr Martens, steel capped boots and set to work on the Temple and its idols. I'm busting the stained glass windows, drawing Hitler moustaches on the photos, and trying to organise a debauched party on the altar.

I'm going to finish by dynamiting the whole building.

I've had enough spiritual bollocks for one lifetime.

God is Dead. Long Live God.

Anth the herring head.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 23:19:12 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Donner
Message:

You said: 'on thing i pray for these days...sorta like pray for...is to learn in ways that are positive and painless whenever possible. of course that takes careful listening to the subtle voice within that i have gotten to know better since ignoring all the external voices that tend to repeat the pattern i am trying to leave...'

Took the words right out of my lotus mouth!. I frequently pray, or rant, or deeply encode myself with the intention that i no longer agree to learn my important life lessons through struggle and suffering. I am now willing to learn what i need to learn through joy and ease. I'm willing to be stretched, and work thru things at times, but i have resigned from the meme-factory spitting out bullshit about learning through suffering, etc...

Take care bud, love katie d

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 13:12:16 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: I can relate
Message:

No, honestly, Mike, I can. Great post. (Frankly, I've never liked the word 'post' -- 'good post', 'great post'. Just don't like sound of for some reason. 'Comments'? Yeah, I'm all over that. But 'post' ... well, at least we're not calling them 'postings' like they do on ELK. Can you imagine? 'Great posting, Mike'? Yech!)

Mike, you really must have gone through a lot, man. I'm just sitting here thinking about that for a second. You know, it really is a sign of something strong and beautiful in you that you're here. Just your being here, a live witness to the truth, without jumping up and down about it ....

You're alright, Mike.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 08:49:34 (EDT)
From: Loaf's biggest fan
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: WOW !! WHAT A FAB POST LOAF ***(nt)
Message:

Ok i wrote this myself... but you know how it is when you post something which you feel has a nugget of truth in it, and come back and find that nobody has even patted you on the head... (sniff).

I felt lonely and passed by, so I have given myself a hug. Thanks for caring. :)

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 00:51:49 (EDT)
From: Francesca :C)
Email: None
To: Loaf's biggest fan
Subject: Yes it was FAB
Message:

Loaf,

I am so blown away by this thread that I have already e-mailed J-M and begged him to make it 'Best of Forum' and saved your post and Mike Donner's posts to my hard drive. But I wannem all!

As my mom always says, 'feel the hugs'!

Love,

Francesca

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 14:58:22 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Loaf's biggest fan
Subject: It IS a FAB post...
Message:

... but it's also Sunday, and some of us sleep in late. I really, really liked your post, Loaf. There are several great posts in this thread.

I agree that M took something very simple that could have helped a lot of people, but manipulated it in a very self-serving way. Many of us do find that after leaving the Goober, we can find that same kind of help from many sources, without strings attached.

I thought you described it perfectly, the way M opens your mind to him by appealing to your feelings, then uses that openess to plant a lot of self-serving ideas in your head to exploit you. Without M's mindtrap it's easier to feel, question, enquire, explore our OWN ''new world'', as you say. What he offer's in the the begining and what you end up with in the end are very different.

When I first started posting here, I was really interested in what information any PAMs had to say, like many of the new exes here. I think that's because when you finally admit to yourself that you've been lied too, you want to find out as much as possible what was being hidden from you. To what extent those lies were hidden.

I'm still interested in what PAMs may have to say too, but I also appreaciate the experiences of the garden-variety and fringe premies, of how they finally were able to break free and claim their own power back, separate the good from the bad and move on, that you can still enjoy your life without worshiping Goober, there is still joy to be had, without sacrificing honesty, as someone here just said so beautifuly. That empowers us all. It helps others to see that it can be done.

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Date: Sun, Sep 09, 2001 at 16:43:17 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: awww....
Message:

the thing about posting (and lurking, and I swing between the two states).. is that posting is not only nice in terms of airing and sharing thoughts and problems .. but its a bit like leaving notes in a hollow of a tree, or leaving a trail of biscuits and then hiding behind a bush in order to see what sort of wild animals will come out and eat them.. but one thing I have discovered.....they never come while you are watching.

It must be like the light in the refrigerator.. but you come back after a time sometimes there are a pile of droppings.

I wasnt SERIOUSLY needing an ego massage - but it is always very much appreciated when people take the time to comment or add something.. this is the joy of sharing stuff in places like this - and i am so happy we are all here to share our individual and collective discoveries..

Thanks chucky

Loafer

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:03:10 (EDT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Owning it
Message:

Thanks for the welcome! I amy just use my screen name which is suedoula -- see you soon!

Best,
Susan

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Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 08:35:30 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Re: Owning it
Message:

I rather liked the way your post folded in upon itself and collapsed in a fit of Hurrah's !

Most impressive. So this is why he wanted us to stop talking... all is clear now !

How are you BD ? Well and happy I can tell, but its all in the asking.

The notion that the vast ocean of feeling might serve the mind well is an interesting one - and one which somehow positions us in relation to Knowledge, not as consumers of it, but masters. (Note the small M.. I can forsee a spurge in throne-building among the exes... anyhow I must go now and submit planning applications for my annexing of the inner, subtle sudetenland.

OooVavoo indeed.

Loaf (even more dissolved than even you into in-jokes which only he 'gets')

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