michael donner -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:22:30 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- Yes! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 04:07:02 (GMT)

__ Katie H. -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:20:55 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:29:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:11:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ donner -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:38:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:54:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- expect nothing - but hope? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:10:02 (GMT)

__ Wildflower -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:15:45 (GMT)

__ __ Mercedes -:- Thanks... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:36:03 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hi, Wildflower, any friend of Francesca's -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:29:11 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H. -:- Thanks, Wildflower -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:10:38 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- Wonderful post Wildflower and welcome! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 00:56:13 (GMT)

__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hello Wildflower. nice to 'meet' you -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 00:46:02 (GMT)

__ Bryn -:- If this is going to be part of my evolution... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:05:29 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- I don't care -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:38:16 (GMT)

__ Richard -:- A glimmer of humility or humanity would help -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:24:54 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- Wow GREAT subject!!! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 15:05:17 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- Wow GREAT subject!!! -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:40:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- I agree with you -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:53:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Richard -:- The speech was written for me and others here -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:43:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- The speech was written for me and others here -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:39:45 (GMT)

__ __ Kelly -:- Wow GREAT subject!!! and great thread! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:34:29 (GMT)

__ Connie -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:58:41 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- care? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:44:00 (GMT)

__ bill -:- better that the devil keep his horns. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:45:10 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- Anyone care to call Kitty Kelley?...nt -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:51:48 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:37:45 (GMT)

__ Loaf -:- I agree MD ! Forget M - lets heal US ! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:37:43 (GMT)

__ Dermot -:- 'hope for and expect from?' -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:46:25 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- Great post Dermot, especially this, for me -- -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:45:09 (GMT)

__ Patrick Wilson -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:35:00 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:52:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Patrick W... -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 14:53:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ Patrick W -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 11:51:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ donner -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:43:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- can people really change, and if they change how -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:07:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- can people really change, and if they change how -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:39:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- difference between people changing -:- Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:36:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- so what? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:05:01 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Patrick W - I apologise -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:18:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Patrick Wilson -:- To my detractors -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:23:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ bill--I must be too dense -:- to see the flaws of my forum mates!...nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:24:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ bill--I managed to miss -:- rawat's grevious defects as well--for years!!..nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:26:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon - I wish you -:- would stop posting only one-liners and give us -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:34:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Im off to boston so give me a few days....nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:49:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie H -:- PW, he already apologized to you once -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:59:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- PW, he already apologized to you once -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:55:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- I AM the one who posted about thread deterioration -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:20:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Patrick W -:- PW, he already apologized to you once -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:19:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Well, if that's the way you feel -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:23:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- PW, please leave your journey - it helped me NT -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:05:02 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- I personally appreciate you Pat W ... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:51:49 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- The wolves Patrick, the wolves are baying -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:47:28 (GMT)

__ __ Friend of Patrick -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:22:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Please, certify me as an 'M Hater' -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:24:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ donner -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:46:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian -:- Don't worry -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 23:39:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ donner -:- Don't worry -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:47:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- The unconcious oneness is too blame! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:42:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Thank you, but please don't generalize -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:59:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Why tar everyone with the same brush? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:34:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ Richard -:- Patrick W and Friend of Patrick and.... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:31:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ Marianne -:- Thanks for this post -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:27:40 (GMT)

__ __ Connie -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:35:44 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- wow, Anon, that must have been quite a lunch!..nt -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:15:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ bill -:- Anon -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:04:58 (GMT)

__ __ Katie H -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:43:16 (GMT)

__ __ JHB -:- Stick around, please! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:42:35 (GMT)

__ __ Dermot -:- My position since I posted that report. -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:20:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- I agree. What's the point of talking to Raja Ji -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:55:15 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:34:01 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- care? -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:59:43 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- meeting and sharing -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:40:45 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- care alright -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:17:24 (GMT)

__ __ donner -:- care alright -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:00:59 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- care? Whether Rev Rawat reforms or not? No! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:38:02 (GMT)

__ __ Lester -:- care? Whether Rev Rawat reforms or not? No! -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:04:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Thanks for that long post Lester - terrific -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:46:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- Good post Lester ! (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:09:54 (GMT)

__ Brian Smith -:- You are absolutely right donner -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:32:35 (GMT)

__ Daneane -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:43:24 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- Great post Donner, you too Daneane...nt -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:07:31 (GMT)

__ Mercedes -:- Ditto!!!!!!! NT -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:00:12 (GMT)

__ Rick -:- care? -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:54:17 (GMT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Justice -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:38:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Justice - thank you, Marianne NT -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:46:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ janet -:- Justice-i stand with YOU. this is what I want 2 c -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:17:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- Way to go Marianne -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:24:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ red butler -:- dream 19 recycled... -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:50:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- well done, red butler BRAVO nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:16:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan- Even better the -:- second time around! nt -:- Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:58:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- good to see you Red Butler -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:32:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- our own Hunter S Thompson....nt -:- Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:49:36 (GMT)

Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:22:30 (GMT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Everyone Subject: care? Message:

i've been thinking about what i want or expect from/of m since patrick w. posted the other day. interesting process. assuming that m and those current PAMs are now somehow more comfortable that m has been outed re the x-rating scene...so what does that mean to me/us? it means nothing really. then, assume for a moment that m apologized for all the things that have been enumerated on this site and elsewhere over the years. what would that mean to me/us. he stopped blaming, took responsibiltiy for his past, present and future behaviour, learned some real organizational skills that finally got the technology of meditation spreading around the world, etc. what would that mean to me/us then? would he really stop thinking/saying/acting as if he owned the technology of knowledge? would he really give up the special place he has claimed for himself as the only ligitimate source of true inner peace? imagine that he did give all that up, really come down off that special pedestal he/we has created over time. what would he be then? what would be his place in the world of social change/spiritual evolution/personal fulfilment movement? its not like m has ever really been a world leader...as i/we might have hoped at one time,or even expected based upon his rethoric. Its not like he has ever build any coalitions with other leaders in the past 30 years of his 'work', made a real name for himself that might provide a platform that would allow him and (us with him) to play on the world stage of ...what...world peace, new age, heaven on earth, food for starving people, you name it. so, if he apologized, changed and became less abusive, greedy, authoritarian, propritary...how would i respond to him? as i reflect on this (very unlikely and remote possibiltiy) i realize that i still would have no interest in joining with him (remember, due the the 'change in him' it would no longer be a matter of 'following' him). Why would i consider joining with him...to what end, towards what goal? i sit here and cannot even imagine a reason that would compel me to join with him. not only has he no credibility anymore...all the false starts towards any meaningful change...but he has no platform, no clear purpose, no rational system to effect any of the changes that interest me in working towards...either within myself or within some community/collective situation. so, the whole things about weather or not he is/was/will ever change is moot, a non-starter with me. furthermore, i spent way too many months/years thinking about m changing..to become somehow again what i was looking for. and i have no control over him...nor do i want any...but i can control my own process towards changing myself. i can continue to empower myself. continue to move towards what i enjoy and feel joy in being involved in/with. the people in my life, to become more truely intimate and caring and giving. to build community where i live, with the people i care about and who care about me. and imagine, if someday m takes an interest in those issues that are important to me...consensus building, community building, personal development, intimate relationships, personal empowerment and shared appreciation and mutual valuing... and somehow in the context of those things our paths cross...at some convention, meeting, workshop, whatever...wouldn't that be amazing and interesting. what do you think about what we hope for and expect from m?

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 04:07:02 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: binduesque@yahoo.com To: michael donner Subject: Yes! Message:

I wish I had the time to read all the posts below. Maybe tomorrow. But for now: I so agree. Maharaji and his sorry posse are so last year. Seriously, there is not much we can do to change the minds of M's thousand-man-and-woman entourage. And M is unlikely to change. We can be here to call attention to what is. What is true about M and his life and his mission. I hadn't thought about the issues Donner brought up until now. What if M did own up to his past and present? The way Donner frames the issue, it becomes pretty clear that the best thing for M to be would be to keep on keepin' on w/ his Master of the Cult thing. Q.E.D. Thanks for yr input, Mike.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:20:55 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: michael donner Subject: expect nothing - but hope? Message:

hey michael (lower-case), I gave up on expecting anything from M a long time ago. I can't even remember expecting anything from him when I was a premie - I mean, how can you expect something from the Incarnation? They are always right! But generally, I've found it's better NOT to expect people to change - part of growing up, I guess. I would HOPE, however, that M could learn to act like an adult human being. I'm talking about someone who is able to take responsibility for their own actions, to apologize, and to make amends where necessary. Of course, I hope the same for everyone else in the world, so I'm not singling M out. But it would help a lot of people if he could do this. I think it would also be hard for a lot of people WHILE it was helping them, unfortunately, but that's what happens when people who have been lying all their lives finally tell the truth. I would never even think of following M again, or 'joining with him' or anything like that. It was almost hard for me to answer your question after reading that part of your post. But after reading your posts, and Michael Dettmer's posts, and J-M's posts for a while, I think there is something different about people who actually got to be 'people around Maharaji' - if only for a little while. It's something I don't envy at all - and I wish you the best of luck in dealing with it. There seems to be a lot of loyalty there, and it also seems to be far harder to break the bonds. Sometimes it's a bit hard for the rest of us to understand, but it's getting clearer. Take care, michael, Katie

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:29:48 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: expect nothing - but hope? Message:

hi katie h...its hard for me to understand how you got the impression that i am at all interested in joining m. i reread my post and clearly i said the opposite...interesting...and loyalty? where do you see that i what i am/have been saying?

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:11:04 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: donner Subject: expect nothing - but hope? Message:

Hi michael - I didn't mean to give the impression that I thought you wanted to join with M in any way - you absolutely did not say that. From your post - and by comparing the feelings you have with my feelings about M - I did get the feeling that you do care about him (in a compassionate way) more than someone like me could do because you knew him personally. I might be really off base with this, but that is what I meant by loyalty. I did not mean.that you were loyal to him in any other way - just caring and compassion for someone you once knew. You just seem to write about him in a more personal way than most of the other people here - although maybe it is just your style. Anyway, apologies if I implied something weird about your post - I really liked it.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:38:16 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Katie H Subject: expect nothing - but hope? Message:

hi thanks for clearing that up...i was not sure what you meant. an interesting observation...will have to ponder that. i feels tons of anger and lots of disappointment still to this day re m..perhaps because i knew him more closely but more likely because i put more hope onto him as an individual/potential leader-saviour. my personal biography leading up to 1972 receiving k created/allowed that projection/hope. also interesting re personal relationship with m. i have in the past referred to having a personal relationship with m and others have referred to same...thinking more clearly about this its certain that i did not have what i would now call a personal relationship with him at all during all those years of being close to him 'physically'. he never allowed a personal relationship with anyone as far as i could tell. not by any reasonable standards including converstion, personal interest, personal caring, give and take..any sense of respectful equality, etc. this dawned on me in about 1990 finally. and became another wonderment for me re why i stuck around so long afterall. speaking with perhaps more compassion...actually i hope i am learning more compassion...comes with less blame and projection and more ownership of my own choices i think...but nothing specific with m really....something i am aware of wanting to cultivate more in my life. thanks, warmly michael

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:54:32 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: katie h Subject: expect nothing - but hope? Message:

one more little thing if you read below my running conversation with patrick w...you will notice that i posted this question and thoughts mainly for folks that tend to think like he does during, what i believe to be, a natural period in exiting the m cult.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:10:02 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: donner Subject: expect nothing - but hope? Message:

Thanks, donner - that did help me understand the point of your post. I just don't think about Maharaji very much (and I never could be as devoted as I wanted to be, although I sure ACTED like it) but I understand that a lot of other people here do.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:15:45 (GMT) From: Wildflower Email: None To: michael donner Subject: care? Message:

This is my first, and possibly only, post. Francesca told me about this site a while back and I have been cruising it, looking for and finding first hand accounts of many of the things I've heard rumors about over the years. I salute those of you who have bravely and honestly come forward. It is a contribution to the many of us for whom it was important to hear the truth from those who were there. Michael, I always thought you were one of those in whom a vein of integrity ran deep and true, and your posts here have certainly borne that out. I salute you and thank you for your open sharing of your on-going life story. To me, being among folks who are willing to put their search for meaning and dignity and truth in life out on the table for the mutual benefit of all participants is what the 'company of truth' is really about. I was a garden variety ashram premie who moved out after six years because I wasn't willing to have a life of celebacy. I always maintained some sort of fence between m the person in the body and m the inner spiritual guide, so I never wanted one of those so coveted positions of service which brought one into close proximity with him physically. My personal crisis came in 1983, when he was doing those question and answer sessions at programs. His response to someone sounded to me like he was invalidating the person's inner experience in favor of m's physical presence and direction, and I totally freaked. I spent years in a process of coming to terms with knowing that m was not any longer and never could again be a teacher to me, and yet wanting to continue to practice the techniques without any longer associating them with m. Mostly I struggled alone, as no one - premie or ex-premie - seemed to be able to really understand my sense of dilemma. Now, years later, moved on and healed, I follow the advice given in 12 step groups: take what you like and leave the rest. One of the things I've taken is a quote in which m said, 'The master is the manifestation of the longing of the student.' The way I look at it now, my higher power or spiritual guiding force or whatever you want to call it will use anything I'm open to in order to reach me and teach me what I need to know. At one time in my life, I obviously needed m as a teacher. Outgrowing that was painful but very expanding for me. Now I'm open to other avenues, and my higher power has wasted no time in making use of those. It may be a bumpy and spiral shaped journey, but I am growing. My heart is opening. My life has always been a spiritual journey, and it always will be. In one sense, I take personal responsibility for all that m ever was to me, both good and bad. That was obviously the lens I needed. Now I need another one. Here's to continued growth!

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:36:03 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: Wildflower Subject: Thanks... Message:

Hi Wildflower, thank you for posting, reading your post has helped me a lot. I am mostly angry this days, angry at having been a hostage to the most awful and mean predator, I too had to change HP's. And the transition has been a bit rough. It is nice to know that my HP has not shape or form. Hope you keep posting. Love, Mercedes

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:29:11 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Wildflower Subject: Hi, Wildflower, any friend of Francesca's Message:

is a friend of mine. Thank you for you post but I was hoping you would stick around for a bit and tell us more.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 01:10:38 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Wildflower Subject: Thanks, Wildflower Message:

Hope you will post again if you feel like it. I was interested to read about your struggle to practice the techniques without associating them with M, and glad to know it was successful. I also really liked this, about what caused you to leave M: His response to someone sounded to me like he was invalidating the person's inner experience in favor of m's physical presence and direction, and I totally freaked. YES! Thanks for bringing that up. I think that still happens all the time. Take care, Katie

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 00:56:13 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Wildflower Subject: Wonderful post Wildflower and welcome! Message:

Please continue to read the site, once the dust settles, and do post again. I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Richard

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 00:46:02 (GMT) From: Moldy Warp Email: None To: Wildflower Subject: Hello Wildflower. nice to 'meet' you Message:

You have an interesting perpective (in your last para) about M fulfilling a need in you at that time. I'm not sure I totally agree, from my perpective.But I can see that that is an empowering perpective for some people. Hope you post somemore, if you feel to. Nice name BTW. Are you female - must be with a name like that -don't answer if you don't want to. Happy journeying!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 22:05:29 (GMT) From: Bryn Email: bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com To: michael donner Subject: If this is going to be part of my evolution... Message:

...and not a twenty five year catastrophe, I can't afford to spare a thought for the individual formerly known as M. Frankly my dear.. love Bryn

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:38:16 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: michael donner Subject: I don't care Message:

Unlike you Mike, I guess I never wanted to change him. I did send a few letters asking for some administrative changes -- better treatment of us peons that were trying to go to programs on only 1 to 2 weeks notice, or a little child care for premies who showed up after not seeing His Fatness for several years only to be told they weren't allowed in without a baby sitter. (Some had driven for hours, or flown down. By the time they got a babysitter, 2 hour program over -- blip. I don't have kids, I was doing ushering in the hall and just couldn't believe what folks were being told at the door.) But I digress. Once I realized that he wasn't what I thought he was, and then of course as we've all discussed, even if he was, I probably wouldn't want it anyway, I just don't care. They only reason I post on here is to deconstruct, find old friends, make new ones from people I barely knew, and to warn others to stay away from Rawat, and guru-disciple trips in general. Peace and Love, f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:24:54 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: michael donner Subject: A glimmer of humility or humanity would help Message:

Donner, you've cast the cold hard light of day on the romantic notion that if one can just excuse away enough of M's behaviour, underneath there would be a true teacher. It is clear, this is not the case. Excellent point and a real koan for anyone questioning their involvement with M&K. It helps to continue the demystification. A glimmer of humility or humanity on M's part would help justify the faith, energy, dedication and love I brought to the party. That M had potential but lost his way. The reason I quit practicing K and attending events was because I realized that M hadn't fullfilled, his potential his promises or my own imagination of what a true teacher should be.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 15:05:17 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Wow GREAT subject!!! Message:

I am so glad your voice is here...this is actually something I mulled over myself. I do not know if you have read the 'MRC' letter but a group of us decided to DO something different than just the site here. We wrote a letter, to Rawat, and some of the people who wrote it were wavering premies, and asked him to apologize and take responsibility for his past. It was hard to write as it had to speak for us all and we don't all see things the same. But the letter was POWERFUL. I thought. It was powerful because it wrote to him as a human, as a human worth salvaging for his own humanity. And the non response said it all. But, what if Rawat did give Richard's speech, what if he did develop a conscience and really step down from his role. I too, agree, I would not in anyway want to have anything to do with him. That would not change. But boy, things for the current premies ( or PWKS ) would change, he could bascially set them mentally free. He could get them help in learning to think for themselves and get their own personal power back. And Rawat, for the first time in his life, could have real friends, ( not me ), real relationships, and sort of see if he can manage in this world without living a lie. The concept of this change, as impossible as it seems to me ( I think he is a sociopath ) is almost healing to think about. It really points out the contrast to what is. Anyway, I like the question, I think in visualizing it, visualizing Richards speech, visualizing the aftermath, one becomes clear on what he should do. And it becomes clearer just where the harm is in all this, and how those premies who are left still could really benefit, and live the rest of their live the rest of their lives joined back with the authentic true self who was lost to the cult. Also, if Rawat made Richards speech. I would personally find it healing. Some of my anger would diffuse. If Rawat and the premies who knew about Jagdeo were to ever tell the truth about Jagdeo, and ask for my forgiveness, it would mean a lot to me, a WHOLE lot. Jagdeo himself no way it would matter, I don't think a creep like that has a soul. He hurt people I love too much, and nothing he could say would matter to me.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:40:40 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Susan Subject: Wow GREAT subject!!! Message:

hi susan...i do not agree that if he gave richard's speech that he would'set the current pwks free' we can really only free ourselves. more then likely many pkws would pine away, beg him to come back as their lord and saviour. free ourselves. but, i did read your letter and it was many of the things i would say...and i too somewhere inside wish he would stop being a prick but mostly i hope that others get out of his way rather then hope he will stop being a prick.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:53:32 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: donner Subject: I agree with you Message:

I have thought to that if Rawat gave that speech there would be premies who would see it as a test of faith. But I think it would also be a catalyst at least, for many, to get back what part of their personal power they have relinquished to the guru. I also agree it will never happen. I agree as well that the place to put our hope for the people left in the cult is that they will take their power back themselves, and not waste a moment of 'this precious life' waiting for him to change.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:43:22 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Susan Subject: The speech was written for me and others here Message:

Someone close to me was going to Portland that day and I needed an editorial outlet for everything I was feeling. Loss, separation, fear. It did me good to put in words the things that I would want to hear from M. Mainly just to let myself and others see the dramatic contrast between my imagination and M's reality. It's odd the years that rolled by waiting for M to be the guru I was drawn to while I ignored the dissonance.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:39:45 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Richard Subject: The speech was written for me and others here Message:

right on richard!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:34:29 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Susan Subject: Wow GREAT subject!!! and great thread! Message:

Hi Susan ,donner, Richard, Francesca, Connie and all, thanks for some really great thought provoking stuff. I think I have come to the same conclusion as all you guys. It would be too little too late, no point now, not for me anyway. I think the only answer is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but he truth, and I just don't see how Rawat will ever be able to face it. One of the first conclusions I came to, when I woke up, so to speak, was that he is the most deluded of us all. It's interesting you call him a sociopath, Susan. I heard a psychologist define the real nature of a psychopath, on the radio the other night....I really wish I could remember what he said, but it described M perfectly! Thanks to you all Kelly

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:58:41 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: michael donner Subject: care? Message:

Micheal, you said: 'assuming that m and those current PAMs are now somehow more comfortable that m has been outed re the x-rating scene...so what does that mean to me/us?' Absolutely nothing, why did he think it so necessary to hide this stuff in the first place. If true, IMO this is just another strategic move. 'Assume for a moment that m apologized for all the things that have been enumerated on this site and elsewhere over the years. what would that mean to me/us.' No matter how convincing the apology, I would find it hard to trust anything he said. For me, trust, once betrayed is very difficult to restore. The betrayal I feel in regards to him is complex, encompassing many levels, physical, emotional, mental, spiritual. 'he stopped blaming, took responsibiltiy for his past, present and future behaviour, learned some real organizational skills that finally got the technology of meditation spreading around the world, etc. what would that mean to me/us then?' Taking responsibility partially implies an active process, and if this was the case, IMO that would take the rest of his life, so spreading the meditation is a moot point. If he did have time, he would have to actually meditate consistently for a long period to know what he is talking about. I don't think the learning of organizational skills himself, is as important as trusting and letting others use their skills to full potential, instead of using sabotage and playing people off against each other to keep them powerless. 'would he really stop thinking/saying/acting as if he owned the technology of knowledge? would he really give up the special place he has claimed for himself as the only ligitimate source of true inner peace? imagine that he did give all that up, really come down off that special pedestal he/we has created over time. what would he be then? what would be his place in the world of social change/spiritual evolution/personal fulfilment movement?' Don't know if he ever will. If he did come down off the pedestal, I have no evidence that he would place any value on being concerned about social change/spiritual evolution/personal fulfillment. In fact, everything he says, seems to indicate that he mocks those things. what do you think about what we hope for and expect from m? As with others, things I hope for: Answers and some resolution and making sense of the time I spent in the cult. Justice, honesty, humanity. Things I expect from m: Respect, care and just plain common decency to fellow human beings, as I expect from any other. Expectation and reality do not necessarily go together though. The biggest question I think is what would it mean if he publically acknowledged he wasn't the Master as we in the west interpreted it and the perpertration of this myth by him. Or the devotee/master relationship was not particularly suited to a western culture. Even if he did all the things you stated, knowing he wasn't, and being a devotee wasn't what was required, would you still want to be associated with him as just a meditation teacher/inspirational speaker? This is what I finally understood. If I decide I need a meditation teacher, I would choose someone who practices what they preach and whom I respect.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:44:00 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Connie Subject: care? Message:

you said it!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:45:10 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: michael donner Subject: better that the devil keep his horns. Message:

The programming went so deep for so many that his insane babbleing cant make the zealots bolt. Sandy, who has seen all the data presented here, has a hard time accepting it still. If rawat comes to sanity, after he dies the zealots will take the -fixed rawat- videos and splice them with the lord of the universe ones in thier attempt to proclaim 'he was here.' All that music, all the photos of him looking good in the crown, all the photos of him with large crowds, all the stats of his flying time, all the twisted praises, will all be distilled into the after his death propagation drive. He will be enshrined as the god in heaven and he came to give his knowledge to the kaliyuga and to many won't THAT be 'amazing and interesting'...! Better that he stay the confused narcissist or whatever clinical titles he qualifies for. He doesnt think he has to answer to anyone, but it IS 'amazing and interesting' that all those that play god go insane! Life is too short, there is no redemption for a devil of this type. And I say good for that. Someone will make some real money writing the lessons of this mad religious gamble. Yet another spawn of buddha and his misperceptions of life. Now THERE was an insane godhead.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:51:48 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: Anyone care to call Kitty Kelley?...nt Message:

sdfh

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:37:45 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: michael donner Subject: care? Message:

Michael: Nice to meet you. I've been away. Actually, having M make a public statement of the sort that's been speculated about *would* make some minor difference to me. I'm a Democrat, and believe in the principle of amelioration. The notion that a lifelong exploiter could have an epiphany of that sort renews my faith in the principle of amelioration, since it supports the underlying contention they people can learn and reform after they've left HS (or in M's case, after they've reached the age of 17). It even suggests (albeit faintly) that I might have a thing or two to learn myself, perish the thought. Of course, OJ will always claim someone else did the deed, so you can't win them all. --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:37:43 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: loafji@yahoo.com To: michael donner Subject: I agree MD ! Forget M - lets heal US ! Message:

Mike - you have hit the nail on the head here... M is NOT the issue here (for me anyhow). People are. People like me and you and you and you who are coming to terms with what has happened to them. Throughout my time as a PWK, The little man behind the curtain ... I never saw. I only saw the act - the projection.. the Wizard of Oz. Now that the curtain is drawn back - and I realise I was fooled -part of me shatters- and I have to pick up the pieces myself. M is out of the equation more than EVER... in reality he was never in it... just the Guru, the focal point... the all powerful wizard. But M as a fucked up mortal deserves no more attention than any other fucked up mortal- and if he turned up at a workshop of mine - I doubt if he would be of any particular interest at all. Its like waking up from being hypnotized... and I feel lost - and suddenly I need love and support and help from You guys.. just to put words and names to so many unthought thoughts. Thankyou everyone for being here - and thankyou Mike for this post - which has clarified something very important for me. Thankyou. Loaf

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:46:25 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: michael donner Subject: 'hope for and expect from?' Message:

Well ....I'll start with expect,,,,,,,,I expect he'll continue to milk it as much as he can ,,,,,and then to pass on the family biz to one of his sons or daughters. I hope as many premies as possible find out what a hypocrite he has been all these years ....so many in fact that he has to accept that the game is over. I'm not vindictive by nature but DLM /EV under his ownership and control ( how can he ever pretend that he has no responsility for those two organisations? ,,,,sheesh) has been responsible for countless suicides (lest we forget .....and I forget often) and all sorts of abuse of power, manipulation and mis-representation. Jim's the resident lawyer...dunno much about that side of it, I'd be happy if he truly and genuinely renounces the whole caboodle and genuinely explains in absolute, chronological detail why he started to do what he did and why he continued the deception for 30 odd years ....and what he is going to do to atone for his actions. Having said that I don't think he really gives a toss about changing (Krishnamurti renounced being the world teacher because he realised early on that it was all a load of theosophical society baloney.....I dont think m has the courage to genuinely face the fact that he's not something special.) Not too long ago .....maybe 3 or so years ago he said that he has his enemies but as long as he has more friends than enemies then he can live with it. The reality is that 's how he sees it. As long as he has needy, dependent people around him to 'feel that longing' and then attribute that to him ....then he'll just carry on. a stick and a pie chart and a bunch of people around him who'll laugh at his jokes and gaze in wonder upon him ....that's his world. It's pathetic really. How come I believed it for so long??? Dermot sucked in early,escaped late,,but better late than never

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:45:09 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Great post Dermot, especially this, for me -- Message:

As long as he has needy, dependent people around him to 'feel that longing' and then attribute that to him ....then he'll just carry on. a stick and a pie chart and a bunch of people around him who'll laugh at his jokes and gaze in wonder upon him ....that's his world. Says it all -- the world of the Master of lies, flies and cries. --f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:35:00 (GMT) From: Patrick Wilson Email: None To: all Subject: My position since I posted that report. Message:

Pat Conlon wrote below: I am a suspicious streetwise old fag and I can smell dishonesty, scams and con games a mile a way. Patrick W's posts stink of subtle revisionist propaganda inserted into the forum in the guise of criticizing Rawat but all the time it is the work of a subtle APOLOGIST. He then kindly continues: posting RUMORS about Rawat's reform is very naughty especially when it is written in pompous pious tones of hushed devoutness. So what do you guys want -should I continue to pass this stuff on to you at the risk of being insulted that I am a premie troll or some other such stupid name?? This is what I have to say to Mr Hard-liner Pat Conlon: Before you start tarring me with your conspiratorial brush for passing on this rumour, why don't you ask Donner about this?.. he also has since spoken directly with this person whose report I simply posted verbatim. , although he has not chosen to make this so clear. Anyway I'm sure he could confirm that I was accurately passing on the message and that my comment about it was a clearly distinct matter. Your current suggestions about are frankly more offensive than anything any premies have even levelled at me. 'Pious tones of hushed devoutness'. and 'stinking revisionist propoganda' are mean-spirited accusations and I find this quite hurtful. Rude people like you and Brian make me also consider not bothering to post here. I am struggling to justify my own continued presence here under the circumstances. You choose to attack people like me because I don't measure up to your standards of hard-line approach. That's not for me thanks. I admit that I have been trying to get the two 'sides' to talk. I think that is healthy. Are you saying that you advocate no negotiation?? I tried to arrange that Mike Dettmers could talk with Glen the other day -that failed - I suppose you think that that makes me a collaborator. Mike did get to have lunch with Raja Ji though. I guess that makes him a collaborator too in your opinion does it? Whatever - I'm sick of your rude suspiciousness. The last thing I need is people like you questioning my sincerity here. I thought I made it clear that I am devoutly pursuing truth here. The way you are going you will put off all sincere people from posting. If this place becomes the one-sided domain of ex-premies with no room for other view then I am going to withdraw like a shot. I have already asked Brian to remove my 'journey' in protest to what I see as a growing trend for smug rudeness and intolerance apparently championed by people like him and you.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:52:03 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: My position since I posted that report. Message:

i for one hope you continue...and yes, i did hear what you heard and reported...and that is what prompted me to wonder...so what? there is so much more then m and those around him becoming comfortable with the x-rated scene coming into the open...so what about all the rest...far more important stuff discussed here? what do you think patrick, would it does it make any difference to you?

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 14:53:54 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: PW Subject: Patrick W... Message:

Hello Patrick. While you're at it... ...be grateful if you or MD would acknowledge and respond to my question mate....see 'my position since......' regarding contacting Glen,Rja Ji and 'negotiations etc' Cheers Dermot.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 11:51:20 (GMT) From: Patrick W Email: None To: donner Subject: My position since I posted that report. Message:

I'll have to get back to you on your question because I am busy working right now. My immediate answer would be yes, some sort of redress from M would be very liberating, not just to me but for many people.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:43:58 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: My position since I posted that report. Message:

hi patrick, while you ponder this consider this question...can anyone liberate you? for me, we can only liberate ourselves...that is the key to empowerment and real freedom. conversely, only m can liberate himself and become free of the false life he has created as guru...the guru of gurus, etc. while his redress might give some satisfaction...liberation?? be wary of the jailer who changes his spots and opens the door to another round of more of the same indisquise. let me know what you think? us know.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:07:56 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: donner Subject: can people really change, and if they change how Message:

does it affect others... In other instances in my life, a sincere apology, and then a change in behavior that makes it clear that the regret is real....have mattered. Moreover, I have without a doubt done things I seriously regret, and have hurt others, and I have apologized, and tried to make amends, and change. Most people have. We are discussing if Rawat were to really change. As I said before, I think the human capacity for introspection and conscience may be lacking in him, he may not even be able to change, because he may be lacking the capacity to really feel empathy. This in no way excuses anything. Anymore than I would excuse Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy because they are sociopaths. But lets say he could change... that there is a kernel of a soul in there we haven't seen. It would matter to me. An apology, and amends, and his ceasing to be a cult leader, that would be good, and I would respect that he tried to stop the whole charade. It would be good for the current premies if he tried to shake them and say this is a cult! Let me find you help to get on your feet mentally again! I am sorry, I have wounded you deeply. Please forgive me. I would not have anything to do with him. I would hope he would give up being any sort of teacher. Most would not forgive him I would guess, that is fine. But a sincere apology would also mean giving up any position where he could recreate the cult. I do not think this is going to happen. Look, a pig just flew by my window (NOT)

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 16:39:39 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Susan Subject: can people really change, and if they change how Message:

ya, i agree mostly...a sincere apology and real change would serve everyone well, no doubt about it. i was addressing that sense of waiting and hoping for a change... and what is inside us that wants one...any remenants of that old devotional need to give our power away still,,,that is more my point/question. but ya, it would be good for him and others...also bet that the line of those begging him to make a guru comeback would be long...all that begging would be sickening.

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Date: Sat, Mar 31, 2001 at 00:36:51 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: donner Subject: difference between people changing Message:

due to a realization they have and honestly wanting to change and 'change' being forced upon them by circumstances. That is why I think hearing that m may be glad that some stuff that was x-rated has been exposed is just a strategic move. If true, I don't think he woke up one day and had an epiphany and felt remorse or an honest need for redress re his duplicity. Looks more like it has been forced upon him, IMO.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:05:01 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: donner Subject: so what? Message:

I think perhaps he is relieved because: He can give darshan and smoke ( pot or cigars ) at the same time. No more getting a jones pretending. The gifts in darshan lines might be more usuable...cognac, hash, marlboros, good cigars He can play Peter Frampton at any program he wants, and no one will think less of him.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:18:53 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Patrick W - I apologise Message:

I am truly sorry for being so fanatical and self-righteous. The only excuses that I have to offer is that I have recently been bombarded both here and in real life with reports like yours and I was feeling besieged by it. I have never doubted your sincerity till then. Also I am a new ex and like a new ex-smoker am hardline and uncompromising. I do know that the oldtimers here have not taken what I said seriously and have dismissed it as new ex paranoia and it may well be. But I will do anything that you think is necessary to restore newcomers' trust in you in case they have taken what I said seriously because of not knowing you. Please feel free to chastise me in any way that you see fit. I have always respected your previous posts and I am afraid that I shot the messenger. Right now I don't care whether Rawat repents or not so it irritated me. Also because of the bombardment by Ev in my personal life I have become overly touchy about what I perceive as spin-control. My humble apologies, Patrick, and I hope that we can resolve this issue. I WAS VERY WRONG to make such irresponsible statements.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:23:59 (GMT) From: Patrick Wilson Email: None To: Pat Conlon and Brian Subject: To my detractors Message:

Apology totally accepted - we'll forget that little hiccup Pat. Thanks. Now that just leaves one long overdue apology outstanding...that is from webmaster Brian for trying so desperately to paint me as some kind of trite, self-centred trouble maker over the years. Hi Brian, since you appear determined to offload your nastiness and paranoia on me, I don't suppose you can demonstrate the same strength of character as Pat, to back down from your more constant, dreary misinterpretations of my intentions can you? No, I thought not. Incidently I am not going to give you the pleasure of withdrawing from posting here, but as you may have gathered I find your remarks so abjectly pathetic and tiresome that I cannot bring myself to have anything more to do with you or your website - so thanks for removing my journey.. I feel much better for that.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:24:34 (GMT) From: bill--I must be too dense Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: to see the flaws of my forum mates!...nt Message:

sdfhsj

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:26:54 (GMT) From: bill--I managed to miss Email: None To: bill--I must be too dense Subject: rawat's grevious defects as well--for years!!..nt Message:

dfgh

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:34:04 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon - I wish you Email: None To: bill--I managed to miss Subject: would stop posting only one-liners and give us Message:

your take on Buddhism. I thought you were going to answer me weeks ago when I asked. I know you did but it was only a one-liner. As someone who always thought Buddha was quite a sensible fellow I would really enjoy reading an essay from you demystifying the old fart. How about it?

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:49:32 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Pat Conlon - I wish you Subject: Im off to boston so give me a few days....nt Message:

sdfh

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:59:10 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: PW, he already apologized to you once Message:

In the LAST e-mail war. You did not acknowledge this apology in any way. It may be impolite and ungracious not to apologize, but it's also impolite and ungracious to not accept or even acknowledge someone's apology - and it certainly makes the person less likely to apologize in the future. BTW, I wish you wouldn't have removed your journey because of a personal conflict with Brian - it was a great Journey, and has helped a lot of people I know. But, as I said earlier, you're entitled - just wish you would reconsider. Take care, Katie

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:55:25 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Katie H Subject: PW, he already apologized to you once Message:

see folks, this is how threads get tangled and off topic...start a new thread for this and stick to the topic above...as someone pointed out...threads always deteriorate...lets consider trying something new...stay on topic or start a new thread..but here i am, off topic in the middle of this thread...

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 06:20:41 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: donner Subject: I AM the one who posted about thread deterioration Message:

OK, I'm embarassed now. Sorry about that. (And this.)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:19:31 (GMT) From: Patrick W Email: None To: Katie H Subject: PW, he already apologized to you once Message:

I did not acknowledge his apology in any way because it still sounded unrepentantly patronising to me - period. Obviously I was right. He's stubbornly clinging to his wrong ideas about me - so he can jolly well accept the consequences of his nastiness towards me - which I have stated.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:23:12 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Patrick W Subject: Well, if that's the way you feel Message:

There's nothing I can do about it. I still think that closing down communication doesn't help matters, but so be it.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 21:05:02 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Katie H Subject: PW, please leave your journey - it helped me NT Message:

k

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 18:51:49 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: I personally appreciate you Pat W ... Message:

and your voice here. The thing that everyone made a big deal about, posting someone's personal address, is extremely technical. You merely posted a public government record that happened to contain someone's personal address because that's the address those persons gave the government, to be made part of a public record. There was a case along these lines in California, filed against a state agency by some doctors (I think they were prison doctors). They lost the case and the court told them they were free to use a PO Box. In that case, it was no major big deal to the doctors until everything was put on the Internet (but they were warned and chose to sue rather than get PO Boxes, I guess). It gets hair-trigger around here, but please hang in mate. Some of us love 'ya. Sincerely, Francesca

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:47:28 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Patrick Wilson Subject: The wolves Patrick, the wolves are baying Message:

They are baying for your blood. This place is just like the real world. Sometimes worse. Thankfully, it's only a collection of web pages. The wolves may turn on anyone here and the pack instinct sets in. I think you've been unfairly victimised. It's ridiculous to think that you've got some hidden agenda. People only have to read your posts on my site, The Truth about Maharaji and look at the ashram section and read the posts by 'Anon' (which was your previous name) and they can see that you're hardly Maharaji's apologist. One thing I do disagree with you on although it's not something I consider very important; that is your hopes that Maharaji will listen to reason and turn around to reconsider his position. I don't personally think Maharaji's worth the effort. He's just a con man, pure and simple. He would have no idea of your high ideals and standards, Patrick. Anyway Patrick, if it were to come down to a fight here, I would be on your side and offer you my full support. .. Dave

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:22:34 (GMT) From: Friend of Patrick Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: My position since I posted that report. Message:

It is with sadness I note the deterioration of the quality of the forum over the last few datys.This right after a brief period when meaningful discussions, insights, thoughtful and thought provoking posts were so plentiful. There is a grave danger that those who remain posting are creatting their own cult, albeit the inverse of the one they left. Maharaji still being the focus, where instead of singing his praises, one must slag him off, the ex-honchos are the new honchos and the rest toe the party line on what's allowed to be said. I was the one who told Patrick I'd heard M had read the forum on occasion and his brave-faced response. This I did after reading some post of Donner's where he doubted anybody would have the guts to relay any content to M let alone M himself ever taking a look. That this could turn into Patrick being an APOLOGIST naughtily writing about Rawats reform in pompous pious tones of hushed devoutedness,is a bit of a stretch. We're all human beings trying to make some sense of our existence.This forum has allowed everyone who once counted on Maharaji to 'help' us in doing that the opportunity to evaluate whether any involvement with him is or was worth it. It woul be a shame if people who would like to clarify their feelings about Maharaji, like Erika for instance, were put off from using the forum by its being monopolized solely by certified Maharaji haters ..

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 17:24:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Friend of Patrick Subject: Please, certify me as an 'M Hater' Message:

It woul [sic] be a shame if people who would like to clarify their feelings about Maharaji, like Erika for instance, were put off from using the forum by its being monopolized solely by certified Maharaji haters .. Oh yeah, baby! I AM an M Hater and proud of it. Am I a Prem Pal Singh Rawat hater? Who knows? Never really met the guy. But M and everything he stands for? Did you read his latest satsang above? You fucking well bet I hate him. He's a blight on humankind. And I've NEVER used that expression in my life!

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 15:46:47 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Friend of Patrick Subject: My position since I posted that report. Message:

not sure about m haters...but generally agree with you about our tone and being civil and open to others coming on and working with them if genuine.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 23:39:54 (GMT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Friend of Patrick Subject: Don't worry Message:

In the 4 years that the forum has been online the conversation and tone have swung from one extreme to another - driven by the swinging 'group-mood' of the people posting at the time. It always to finds its center. Right now, there is a much larger 'stable' population to help offset those of us who still swing at times. But nobody attempting to deal with their own inner conflicts after leaving the cult will find everything that they need at any given point on the forum. It's useful to the process, but it's not a cure-all. Most of the hard work is done off-line and alone.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 18:47:01 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Brian Subject: Don't worry Message:

thanks for that insight and background

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:42:28 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Friend of Patrick Subject: The unconcious oneness is too blame! Message:

Buddha never did figure out how the unconcius oneness downloaded human nature to us while maintaining it's unconcious state and didnt know that a part of itself had somehow escaped and was in humans like those here that are careening from cults to anticults to moodswings to moon related moodswings to moodswings based on factors such as pre or post morning coffee, pre or post sex, lack of sleep, or general enragement over present day buddha's trying to guide us back to the unconcious oneness when it cant be done because there IS no unconcious oneness in the first place! Why shouldnt we be bonkers somedays?? No need to lament that we are nuts! Enjoy it.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:59:40 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Friend of Patrick Subject: Thank you, but please don't generalize Message:

I very much appreciate you posting and confirming the report - not to mention your telling Patrick about it in the first place. I was one of those people who did not believe that M would EVER read this site, particularly the forum. (If you were M, would you?) However, the remarks about Patrick W. being a possible apologist were made by only ONE person here (as far as I can tell). This is a public forum and things like this happen. I think the accusation is ridiculous, and so do many other people here. Please give us some credit. Thanks, and hope you'll post again.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:34:10 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Friend of Patrick Subject: Why tar everyone with the same brush? Message:

I also think that the recent attacks on Patrick are ridiculous and unfounded. But if you look, you'll see that the attacks have only come from two people, three at the most.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:31:03 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Friend of Patrick Subject: Patrick W and Friend of Patrick and.... Message:

Just give it a moment or two for the smoke to clear. With all of the truth being told recently, there has been a huge amount energy released in the form of both inspiration as well as squabbling. Once the smoke and dust clears from this 'blast' of revelation and insight, some good work can be done. Thank you Patrick W for your efforts on our behalf and your well intentioned posts. Keep participating. It makes us all stronger.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:27:40 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie To: Friend of Patrick Subject: Thanks for this post Message:

While I do not agree that the forum is on the verge of turning into its own cult, I appreciate your post, Friend of Patrick. I especially appreciate you showing up to verify what you said to Patrick. Thank you very much. Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:35:44 (GMT) From: Connie Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: My position since I posted that report. Message:

Patrick I read all your posts, and each one I have found sensitive, intelligent and clear. Some have brought tears to my eyes. They have helped me greatly. I don't really understand what lead to your decision to delete your journey or your questioning whether to continue posting or not. Everyone's intepretation of things here, including mine, seems to be so different. I am still getting used to it. If you leave, I hope it is only for a short time, until you come back and again post, IMO, your unique valued perspective.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:15:38 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: wow, Anon, that must have been quite a lunch!..nt Message:

dfhj

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:04:58 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: Anon Message:

Hi Anon, Somehow I miss all the most contencious posts it seems! Too Many posts and not enough time makes for a hit and miss forum visit. I didnt know but I bet you did, about a coming Magazine article? I think your journey and posts might be as useful to others as they were to me. Whoever is pissing you off, maybe they are having a bad day? I dont know...it is a hot site sometimes! That is kind of big news about the Magazine article.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:43:16 (GMT) From: Katie H Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: My position since I posted that report. Message:

Dear Patrick, I hope you will consider continuing to post here, and re-consider your postition about removing your journey, which has been helpful to a lot of people. Could you perhaps table the decision for a week? It's been a rough week here, and I think a lot of people have said or done things that they might have not done otherwise. I understand what you mean about the rudeness and being accused of insincerity. The same things have happened to me on this forum, mostly because of my non-hardline attitude towards premies, and, yes, it does make one not want to participate here (and I have taken some breaks for my own sanity.) I do not see this as a 'growing trend' - in fact, I think the forum is getting more civil. But perhaps this has not happened to you personally here before. I very much appreciate your posts here, and I think most of the other people here do too. And I do not think you are an apologist, a collaborator, or whatever (frankly, I think that is a ridiculous accusation). Take care, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:42:35 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: Stick around, please! Message:

Patrick W, I hope you stay. As you know I also received your post about revealing personal addresses, and it did annoy me that I couldn't see the other recipients, but it's no big deal. I hope you and Brian can make up. I also think Pat Conlon is getting a bit hard-line (sorry about talking about you Pat in the third person!), and a little more tolerance for the variety of human expression here would be welcome. Trolls are mythical characters - the people who post here, whatever their motives, are human. Engage them or don't engage them, trust them or don't trust them, but remember they are human like all of us. John.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 12:20:13 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Patrick Wilson Subject: My position since I posted that report. Message:

Patrick As far as I'm concerned there's room enough here for people of all persuasions. I look at like this. An Ex-premie is somenone who used to be a sincere premie of Rawat and who is now free of that allegiance deep down in their heart of hearts. That's it really. That, in many cases, is about all we'll have in common . In some cases we'll have more in common. But that is the bottom line. I once was a premie, now I'm not a premie. Whatever you come up with with your sources. I'd like to see it and read it. Whether you or someone else believes this that or the other is of no matter to me (ultimately). I'm 50 soon ....with a bit of luck I'll have 20 or 30 or more years left(touch wood) but that isnt a long time.....I aint got time to piss about with another ' movement' I had most of my adult life with DLM/EV. However I would like to know the real story of what was and is going on in the movement that conned me for so long. Also I have a lot of friends who are still premies ( though I havent seen any for a long while). I like , respect and care about a lot of them. If they decide to stay with Rawat till they die, so be it. It's their choice......I won't like or dislike them any more or less or whatever. I'd prefer it if all the premies found out what a hypocrite , and ultimately what a charlatan m was and is but whether that is a realistic proposition......at this stage I haven't got a clue. Just out of interest though I'd like to ask you and M Dettmers an open and honest question and hope one or both of you can give me an answer. ......What do you realistically hope to achieve by contacting Glen, Raja Ji et al .....I'm not saying you should or shouldt do it ....I'm curious......you expect them to do what? Concievably one of em may report everything verbatim to m but Donner has said for years and years whenevr m was taken to a certain point he couldnt hack it and returned to the big devotional thing. I used to be a catholic ......then I used to be a premie.....Idont want or need devotion per se anymore .....so what do you hope to ' negotiate'.....I genuinely dont get it. Best Regards Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 20:55:15 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Dermot Subject: I agree. What's the point of talking to Raja Ji Message:

I'm really glad I wasn't a PAM, because I have no bridges to burn with these people on a personal basis. I knew Bhole Ji and Sat Pal as a small raggedy crew of the 'end of Bhole Ji's band' members and a few other monmots and excommunicants from the LA circle of PWKs, but that was years ago and I made my break by fading away. I like Richard's logo -- just walk away. --f

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:34:01 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: michael donner Subject: care? Message:

It's remarkable that once Maharaji is taken off the pedestal in one's mind, he just appears like any other con merchant and the feeling about him is pretty neutral. My view is that the people who are hoping that Maharaji will come clean and transform his mission, they must still be holding a candle for him in their minds/hearts. I guess that's natural since they've been his devotees for so many years. They're still his potential devotees, if only he would straighten up his act. Personally, I couldn't bare to listen to another word he said. I think he wrecked a potentially beautiful thing. In the seventies there was a movement of people who had received k and if they had been left to their own devices, without the 'leadership' of Maharaji, a lot of good could have come of it. When the ashrams were abandoned in about 1976, there were communities of premies. These weren't fanatics or weird, synchronised cult people, they were just ordinary people who had some similar ideals and aims (very different to Maharaji's). Had they been left to expand and grow, with those intimate evening getogethers in people's living rooms which were called 'satsang' but were more like group therapy or sharing, I think only the best of things would have resulted. If we had taken Maharaji out of the equation back then, the people who had received knowledge would have grown together and individually, in a natural way and only good could have resulted from it. Unfortunately, Maharaji destroyed all that. But to answer your question. I want or expect nothing from Maharaji.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 02:59:43 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: care? Message:

right on sir dave

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:40:45 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: meeting and sharing Message:

That was the whole thing for me really, community. I used to feel so frustrated that I had young children and couldn't fully focus on those festivals, blah blah. Now I see it was a very fortunate thing for me because once the community spirit left there was nothing left except M talking and that didn't do it for me. Not sure about the knowledge thing though, I still don't think he gave me anything. I used to get more out of my daily 2 hour improv dance classes. And I am fairly sure that I'd breathe even if I hadn't sat in a room and gotten initiated. It's hard to imagine M doing anything that would equate to an amends and I'm not even bothering to think about that until I see some reason to.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:17:24 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: michael donner Subject: care alright Message:

Hi Mike, I think if he really does decide to get down off his throne, the first thing he'll need is psychiatric care and counselling. He's been worshipped as God Almighty since he was a little boy and this has obviously fucked him up. It may be a couple of years before he's in healthy enough shape to open that Luxury Used Car Mart on the Pacific Coast Highway. Anth who is only joking in the last paragraph.

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 03:00:59 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: AJW Subject: care alright Message:

exactly...years of therapy

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:38:02 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: michael donner Subject: care? Whether Rev Rawat reforms or not? No! Message:

Thanks Mike for posting that. It was like a shot in the arm or a breath of fresh air. Having your calm, serious voice here has been a very pleasant development. And thank you for bringing the committee back to the agenda at hand. I have been thinking the same thing since the rumors were posted. I also have been thinking, is this rumor wishful thinking on the part of a sincere church-lady or a deliberate leak of disinformation by a diehard ''businessman'' like Glen Whittaker? but that's another subject. You said: ''What do you think about what we hope for and expect from m?'' I don't expect anything from Mr Rawat and have no right to expect anything from anybody except those with whom I have entered into a contract. I have severed mine with Rev Rawat and released him from his contractual obligations to me because I no longer need the product or service that I contracted for and I prefer doing business with straight-dealers. Neither do I hope for anything from him. I do however hope something FOR him. I hope that he will one day be happy and at peace with himself without either delusions of grandeur or ghosts of dead fathers and other superstitions and illusions to hound him. I wish him well as I wish all people well. On a less personal note: I would hope that he straightens things out and speaks respectfully, honestly and as an equal to the premies and apologizes for the mess that he has made and gives back all the money he stole from the ashram premies and has wasted on his whims and silly schemes. But I will not be inviting him to sit on a committee of democratic and civilized men of goodwill any time soon. He needs some remedial education - perhaps a Rhodes scholarship and a dose of Platonism - before he will be able to engage in any serious discussions with sensible men and women. But I'll settle for him making a publicly broadcast confession to the pope in St Peter's Piazza or whatever it's called. That's a joke, Salam.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:04:35 (GMT) From: Lester Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: care? Whether Rev Rawat reforms or not? No! Message:

Firstly, glad to see you posting Pat - I much appreciated your welcome to me when I first posted, and was concerned at your recent reactions to things going on in the Forum. As such I really concur with what you say about Mike's message and how it has brought a focus and air of calm back to the Forum. For me , Mike's comments tie in with LA-ex's post about the reasons for joining DLM in the first place.Trying to look back over all those years to 1971, I seem to remember myself as young, impressionable, naive, idealistic, seeking for the 'Truth' etc. etc. who happened to come across Maharaji (I remember at the time saying to a friend how glad I was that I hadn't come across Hare Krishna first, because I 'd have had to had the haircut - shows how much a discerning person I was). And he wooed me: light of a 1000 suns (appealing idea), concept of Satguru (could you afford not to follow), mystique of the 'secret knowledge', world peace movement and so on. And I was kept there over the years by awe of the Master (or my concept of him), fear, guilt, lack of real introspection, lazy thinking, peer pressure and probably a sense of there's nothing better out there. But mainly, the thing that kept me in was that I believed I was dealing with the latest incarnation of the true master. The Ex-premie site enabled me to see through this and stripped away the myth. I'd stopped active involvement months before, but the vestiges remained (and much stronger than I imagined). But as soon as it became clear that Maharaji has got feet of clay - I know some of you would be stronger than that! - there was nothing left, except an organisation which I felt no affinity for and despised much of the time, and a set of meditation techniques which sometimes I find a little calming.But as many of you have said, I could have read these in a book in any case. This realisation was directly due to the Forum. So if M was to apologise/reform or whatever, as far as I am concerned (from a purely personal point of view) it would make no difference at all. He has nothing to offer me, he is an irrelevance, and of course he will never think to compensate the hurt and deceit for which he is responsible. I read on the site how hurt some people have been, and of course that puts a different spin on it than I have described, and I can only respect those other feelings. For me, I have come out more or less unscathed (I think). What I see is how much I allowed my life to be retarded by falling for the whole show for so long. When I was a new premie, I used to think that I had the wisdom of lifetimes - now I realise how lazy I was in just absorbing and regurgitating his so simplistic view of the world and my life. I guess I hardly had my own views and opinions, cos I didn't need them to thrive in his domain (just the opposite, in fact, they would have got in the way). Now I feel I'm in remedial class, with a lot of growing and learning to do. So it's time to reconstruct, move forward - and that process started months ago and it's good. And that's where the Forum can be so strong. I beleive that most premies will never be able to see through what they are involved in by people offering a logical argument against its validity, because subconsciously they feel that they have so much to lose - such arguments are confronting, but can easily be dismissed by the non-analytical devotee.And we all know it, most premies do not and will not analyse what they are involved in or doing. But when the myth of the Master is exploded by honest witness statements of his hypocrisy and double standards and self-seeking mission, the rest just falls away and you are left thinking 'How could I ever have been so stupid for so long?'

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 05:46:51 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Lester Subject: Thanks for that long post Lester - terrific Message:

And I nearly DID join the hairless Krishnas - oh my god. You said: ''How could I ever have been so stupid for so long?'' It was not stupidity. Ignorance of the facts maybe but not stupidity. You can see here that some of the smartest most wonderful people in the world were suckered and loyalty and idealism kept them in. Some saw through it faster than others. I always was a slow learner but a thorough learner and a lesson once learned by me needs never to be repeated. I don't care if he reforms. Good to have you here, Lester.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 13:09:54 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Lester Subject: Good post Lester ! (nt) Message:

zz

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 08:32:35 (GMT) From: Brian Smith Email: None To: michael donner Subject: You are absolutely right donner Message:

There is nothing in it any more for me. He has no leadership skills no real functional organization that could facilitate any worthwhile contribution to the world. He really is rather inept and ineffectual at spreading knowledge, his attrition rate would be an embarrassment to any other CEO anywhere else when it comes to crunching numbers. A public acknowledgement to those that he has harmed over the years remains a remote possibility, even if he did make ammends, I doubt that it would stop him from continuing to perpetrate his myth. The only logical recourse we as individuals can take is to process the many unresolved issues through our own efforts and means. The forum is a good place to get in touch with our individual and collective concerns and start walking the path towards recovery. He could do nothing to atone for the years of confusion and abuse of power that he has yielded all these years. The one thing that would make me happy would be if he renounced the world, gave up his many homes, yacht, airplanes, sex toys, booze and cigarettes, stripped down to a loin cloth, with only a beggers bowl for a possesion and wandered the ganges riverbank for the rest of his life. Fat chance that he would ever do anything even remotely spiritually redeeming like that!

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:43:24 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: michael donner Subject: care? Message:

Why should you expect anything from him? Why think about what he could do to be or become someone you would once again follow? Seems to me the root of the problem is thinking you need to follow anyone. You said it yourself...its about your friends and making a life you can sleep at night with.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 14:07:31 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Daneane Subject: Great post Donner, you too Daneane...nt Message:

sfgsh

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 07:00:12 (GMT) From: Mercedes Email: None To: michael donner Subject: Ditto!!!!!!! NT Message:

ss

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 06:54:17 (GMT) From: Rick Email: None To: michael donner Subject: care? Message:

I think old mahamoohoo belongs at the back of the bus for a very long time. No more nuthin' for that sucker til many moons pass. There are plenty of others to steer the big ship of the 'planet' and bump heads about all the highfalutin things that need doin'. And like you aluded to, Mike, the mahagooglygoo hasn't exactly established himself in any realm but his own dirty cult... and that doesn't carry much weight around 'town'. So, he could say he's sorry. That would be nice, mostly for himself. Unless he's got lots of cash, in which case he could make some form of amends. And admitting his fraudelance as a guru might help many people who haven't fished themselves out of the muck yet. But as far as any residual status for the poncey guru... forget it.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 09:38:22 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: donner Subject: Justice Message:

Look, I don't expect anything from this guy. I've been away from it for so long the idea of having anything to do with him or his fecking cult does not even enter my mind. But, what do I want to happen, in my wildest dreams? My sentiments run along the same theme as Brian Smith's above. But I have very specific ideas about what I'd like to see. In big federal criminal fraud cases, where someone is found guilty or pleads guilty, the government often forces the guilty party to disgorge improperly obtained funds. I would like Captain Rawat to give up all his improperly obtained funds. And the government considers profits made from funds initially improperly obtained to be wrongly obtained as well. The same should apply here. Abi, Susan and the other victims of sexual abuse by mahatmas, Catpain Rawat, AND OTHER OFFICIALS OF DLM/EV, should all be compensated for their pain and suffering, lost life opportunities, etc. Those who were kicked out of the ashrams with not a dime to their names should be compensated. Those whose health was damaged by forced slave labor in various 'divine' enterprises should be compensated. Those who developed mental impairments, or whose pre -existing mental difficulties were exacerbated by involvement in the cult, should be compensated. Those who were convinced to give up inheritances, or personal or real property to the cult, should be compensated. Those who suffered emotional and physical abuse by Captain Rawat or those working for him should be compensated. Those who were fraudulently convinced to give monthly donations to the cult should be compensated. The guy should be forced to go somewhere and concentrate on his breath for a few decades, and realize how truly beautiful it is. Stripped of all the trappings of wealth he's accumulated. Yeah, go tell us how to enjoy life when you have nothing but the clothes on your back, Catpain Rawat. Oh, and I'd like him to explain about the recent shredding of documents too. But of course, that will be someone else's fault, won't it? Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 19:46:13 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Justice - thank you, Marianne NT Message:

l

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 11:17:38 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Justice-i stand with YOU. this is what I want 2 c Message:

i want all that you delineated, and to see him while away some years in prison for his crimes. and perhaps to add a condition to his sentence that he is forbidden to adress groups for the rest of his life.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 10:24:41 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: MariannE Subject: Way to go Marianne Message:

My sentiments exactly. You're a lawyer, do you think that could ever happen? Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 16:50:38 (GMT) From: red butler Email: None To: Tonette Subject: dream 19 recycled... Message:

His eyes were open but not yet comprehending much. He ran his tongue across his teeth, and there was a raw gap in the front that was new. Of course, his head was pounding and his throat was parched, but what was that sound? The high pitch whine so close by made him think of a helicopter blade grabbing at air, struggling to reach lift speed. When was that? Mostly though, the noisy darkness scared him. He felt a breeze where there shouldn't be one and suddenly realized his pants, christ! even his underpants where gone. Slowly, he rose to his feet, stumbling over beer bottles and sterno cans. He brushed away the crusty film staining his chilled buttocks, and dimly thought of satin sheets and the roar of ocean waves. Where was that...? From the railroad yard came the faint glimmer of dawn and the greasy little Indian man was able to take stock of himself. Looking around dazedly, he found his trousers in a pile. 'At least they're dry,' he thought. They might even pass for clean in the dark, though he knew the strong ammonia smell would give him away. But nobody would give a shit at the mission. 'Mission', the word rattled noisily in his sick, addled brain. Something about 'mission.' What was that...? Slowly he made his way up the bank to the freeway shoulder. Cars whizzing by in their rush hour frenzy dizzied him even further. 'Gotta remember this place,' he promised himself. 'Not that crowded, and pretty safe, though the company was a little rough. It ain't Malibu, but not bad for East LA,' he thought. 'Malibu,' the word haunted him. 'Ah fuck it” He couldn't remember that stuff any more but he did remember some bottles he stashed by the Safeway dumpster last night. He was all right. He was fine. And the beer he'd by from the bottle deposit would be just the way to start his day...

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 12:16:55 (GMT) From: Rick Email: None To: red butler Subject: well done, red butler BRAVO nt Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Mar 30, 2001 at 20:58:12 (GMT) From: Susan- Even better the Email: None To: Rick Subject: second time around! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:32:09 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: red butler Subject: good to see you Red Butler Message:

He could always migrate north to Booneville.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 29, 2001 at 17:49:36 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Selene Subject: our own Hunter S Thompson....nt Message:

dfgs

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