btdt -:- carl's post -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:55:20 (EDT)

__ cq -:- Re: carl's post -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:45:55 (EDT)

__ ggg -:- Re: Carl's 2nd post to Harry -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:44:35 (EDT)

__ __ RichMandrake -:- I Agree. Brilliant Post -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 10:03:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Carl's post BEST OF LIFES GREAT -:- Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 15:13:26 (EDT)

Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 05:55:20 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: All
Subject: carl's post
Message:

is carl's 8/30 post on LG brought over? I can't find it and it's good. If so, excuse the new thread.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:45:55 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: carl's post
Message:

Here 'tis: http://www.hotboards.com/plus/plus.mirage?who=premieforum&id=5157.90546191065518

Posted: Thurs, Aug 30, 2001 at 08:20:57 (EDT)
Original: NA
Posted by: Carl Recipient: All
Email Address: Not Provided
Browser Type: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt)
Message Count: 103 visits (5 today, 103 this week, 5 this month, 103 this year)

Subject: For Harry to consider.
Message:

You say something very curious, Harry: 'So, the central thrust of this man's [M's} teachings has virtually nothing to do with lifestyle, judgement, circumstances and personal behavior choices.'

Let me ask: Just how valid, sincere, inspiring or effective would be the teaching of a writer who doesn't write, of a musician who won't or cannot perform adequately, of a meditator who doesn't meditate, of an investment counselor who begs for alms, a mathematician who cannot count to ten?

Some people may be excused for thinking that a 'true spiritual master' would proffer more than banalities and impart more than public domain meditation techniques in an atmosphere of secrecy and exclusivity while exacting personal adoration and cash from his devotees.

Does M position himself as God incarnate, or even greater than God? Yes he does. Now, don't be coy, Harry. You know this is the fundamental subtext to the whole enterprise.

Does M now lie about that? Yes he does.

Does M continue to arrange for activities such as arti/darshan/footkissing to take place? Yes he does.

Did M cause the death of another man and lie about it to avoid all responsibility? Yes he did.

Did M knowingly put children and others into harms way by deciding to facilitate and promote the proselytising activities of certain 'saints' who had violent and/or psychosexual pathologies, thereby inflicting serious physical and psychological damage upon a number of victims? Yes he did.

Did or does M regularly ingest alcohol and other drugs while at the same time promoting an experience of inner divinity and peace, and yet condemn the use of the same drugs he ingests? Evidently, yes.

Does he claim or assume a divine status, far above mere mortals, for doing this. Yes he does.

Does M fail to see any hypocrisy in this? Evidently, yes.

Does M enrich himself and his immediate family in an astoundingly lavish and opulent lifestyle far, far in excess of any need, primarily on donated or psychologically coerced labor of 'followers' around the world? Yes he does.

Does M regard himself as above the laws of this world that are designed to mete out justice equally for all people regardless of their social standing? One wonders about that.

I would like you to review the following material and report back please:

Identifying Traits of Abusive Groups

We offer a shorthand list followed by a longer list of cultic traits compiled from: Recovery From Cults, by Michael D. Langone, Captive Hearts, Captive Minds, by Madeleine Tobias and Janja Lalich, 'Crazy' Therapies, by Margaret Singer and Janja Lalich, Combating Cult Mind Control, by Steven Hassan

Michael Langone, in his article 'Cults, Violence, and the Millennium,' suggests the following three characteristics as essential in the definition of a cultic group:

1. centralized control by a charismatic leader
2. an us-versus-them mentality that isolates
3. a lack of tolerance for dissent

Compiled list:

1.Control-oriented leadership – leader claims to be an all-knowing, liberated being.

2.Hierarchical structure with an elite inner circle – including leader’s assistants.

3.Group leader not accountable to any authorities, as are, for example: military commanders, and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations.

4.Polarized us-versus-them, black-or-white mentality causing conflict with wider society.

5.Manipulation of members by alternating guilt/anxiety/fear/ostracism and attention.

6.Group perception of being spiritually unique/elite and separate from normal culture.

7.Denunciation of other spiritual/religious leaders and groups.

8.Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about group and leader.

9.Spiritual practices emphasize experience rather than rationality.

10.Sexual abuse - leader uses power to sexually exploit members.

11.Economic exploitation of members by leader and assistants.

12.Confidentiality of members private affairs (legal, medical) violated by leader and assistants.

13.Members’ subservience to group causes them to cut or weaken ties with family, friends, and personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining group.

14.Reliance on outside professional help, doctors, therapists, etc., discouraged.

15.Leader poses as self-sacrificing divine agent who only promotes members’ well-being.

16.Service is inner directed toward the group not the surrounding community.

17.Revamping of members’ cultural/moral values to suit leader’s lifestyle and program.

18.Conformity to group’s/leader’s values, life style, mode of dress, diet, esthetics, and so on.

19.Promotion of dependence on group/leader – often disguised.

20.Important personal decisions must be approved by leader – members seek his blessing.

21.Phobia induction vis-à-vis leaving the group/leader.

22.Painful exit process – ex-members ridiculed, threatened, and dumped.

Note: If you check any of these items as characteristics of the group you are concerned about, and particularly if you check many of them, you should reexamine the group and your relationship to it. Such reexamination usually runs against the dictates of the group leaders and will be difficult for the member to do. Begin by speaking to outside health and legal professionals and ex-members. If your group is indeed healthy and non-abusive, there is nothing to fear from taking these cautionary steps.


---

---
-

Thought provoking, yes? You see, Harry, life is great, even while challenging one's assumptions and delusions. Your breath by breath awareness and freedom can only improve when you are free of cultish dependency. You may even find yourself 'closer to God' and much more in tune with, and in love with, the breath of life.

Good luck, buddy.
Carl

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 07:44:35 (EDT)
From: ggg
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: Carl's 2nd post to Harry
Message:

Here you are:-

Harry,

Let's look at this then, without rancor:

'Carl,

Other than reciting the telephone-enhanced version of Dettmers' laundry list and re-printing your handbook, which could apply to everyone from the Dallas Cowboys to the Rastafarians, you haven't dealt with a single question I posed.


---

---

---

Your questions do not address the real issues, one of which is the hypocrisy of a man positioning himself as God Almighty, and then attempting to publicly backpedal that when it became inconvenient or embarrassing, yet to perpetuate that concept as an underlying premise of his current entrepreneurship. Sorry, but that is frankly dishonest. Surely you must see this.

As far as the 'laundry list' and the cult 'handbook', they are both useful compendia of salient issues, given our mutual interest. Although I understand your discomfort and denial with dealing with the 'laundry list' and marvel at your blithe dismissal -- more like willful ignorance -- of those questions (btw, what do you mean by 'telephone enhanced'?), the 'handbook' is, as I said, a useful tool for evaluating whatever group with which you may choose to be involved: Unitarian, Rastafarian, Rotarian, or even Mahararian. Enjoy.


---

---

---

Here they are again. If you're going to attempt to answer, please do so based on something resembling actual reality from the last two decades. Recycled, revised and re-written conclusions of others doesn't pass muster.


---

---

---

I suppose the ten commandments wouldn't past muster either, not having been generated within the last few years. I suspect nothing an 'ex' writes will pass muster with you (as if one needed your approval!) Don't forget, however, that the whole K trip is/was couched in an absolutist, eternal and cosmic framework. Timeless truths, you might say. So your two decade threshhold of tolerance is a little silly. But no matter, we shall go forward.


---

---

---

As far as 'banalities' and 'public domain meditation techniques' (another parroted slogan) goes, those are clearly in the eye of the beholder and I'd imagine you wouldn't have characterized them so at other points in your own life.


---

---

---

The 'banalities' refer to the self-evident common sense notions that M has himself been 'parroting' for years. As for 'public domain meditation techniques' (a useful phrase, even as a cliche it seems to threaten you a bit . . . sorry, brother!) I still practice them daily and derive IMMENSE benefit from doing so. While it is true I would not have dared to think of them in these terms, that I do so now in no way diminishes them. In fact, having left the self-limiting manacles of cult involvement, the enjoyment is much more sublime. But I really don't care whether you believe that or not, sorry.


---

---

---

I see profound wisdom, delivered regularly with humor, empathy and clarity, and the strongest, most effective and simplest way to completely and reliably center and satisfy a person being offered. It has worked for me through every conceivable stage and thrill and spill of my life. It has worked with and without various belief systems. It has worked beautifully for every imaginable type of human being, utterly independent of their location and circumstance. If that's meaningless to you, then so be it. I think that's an astounding achievment.


---

---

---

Here we may have points of agreement, Harry. Like many, perhaps most, 'exes', I still value the practice of meditation. And I agree that it is a most efficacious centering and peace-inducing practice. It has accompanied me through almost 30 years of, shall we say, an interesting life, and I cherish the inner world as my refuge and source of wisdom and love. But what we need to recognize is that it is not the big secret -- nor need it be -- about which M makes such an issue, and, it must be acknowledged, through which he has amassed an inordinately lavish, if not decadent, personal fortune. I understand you will find it convenient to rationalize his behaviour, and that is your right, and your problem. Others have a right to question that, and that is their problem. Meanwhile, the business keeps chugging along, with the K as carrot that can never be bought, but which is paid for over and over and over again. Some people have an instinctive problem with that. You may not appreciate that. That's fine. The thing is, the K is simply not the exclusive province of M and Co. Believe it or not.


---

---

---

This time, please try to read what's actually written, not your own mental mutterings.


---

---

---

Now Harry, please don't be snotty. Everything you write could just as well be called 'mental mutterings', yes? Don't resort to cheap shots, it is unbecoming and dishonorable.


---

---

---

What percentage of Maharaji's time and teachings would you say have been dedicated to telling others how to behave, how not to behave, who to fall in love with, what to look like, what to eat, how to express yourself, who to have sex with or what to believe blindly? How much marriage counseling and love life advice has Maharaji given from the stage? Or off it? Whose personal habits have you heard him publicly criticize? What age, physical condition, sexual preference, religious background, nationality, literacy level or affluence status have you seen him unable to deal with or accept?


---

---

---

Again, Harry, these aren't even the issues worth addressing. 'Percentage of time' on your own 'laundry list'? Come on, lad. Get with the program: HE is/was/will ever be the self-styled incarnate 'Lord of the Universe' (whether formerly explicitly stated or currently denied yet implicitly communicated). As such he meticulously directed the behaviours of tens of thousands who, willingly, innocently, accepted the whole routine. I am surprised that you are surprised that people may have been sincere enough to take him at his word, and who were dedicated to the knowledge and to him personally, at what ever distance, and who felt profoundly betrayed when his manifestly selfish agenda became harder and harder to deny. Go figure.


---

---

---

What does any of this gossip, snottiness, victimhood and speculation have to do with what he teaches? Which happens to be, in case you've forgotten, regular reminders to find, know and immerse one's self in the pure, perfect and infinite within. That hasn't changed one bit. If you don't find the infinite and timeless to be impressive and it's a little too ordinary and mundane for your taste...so be it.


---

---

---

Again, points of agreement and points of divergence: What you characterize as 'gossip, snottiness, victimhood and speculation' I might call 'personal testimony, fair criticism, sharing and communication'. Eye of the beholder, indeed. The 'reminders' are sweet, clear and charming for many, no doubt. That's fine and dandy. But there is a powerful subtext that accompanies all of these reminders, no? To acknowledge M as the only one who can afford you 'salvation' and you had better understand that or you are damned, and, by the way, 'please support me monetarily in my 'work' '.


---

---

---

Can you answer based on what you have seen and felt, yourself?


---

---

---

I always do, Harry.


---

---

---

Anything you've 'heard' is of no interest to me whatsoever, as I've spent enough time around Maharaji to judge for myself how he is both on and off 'stage.


---

---

---

You are not the only one, my friend.


---

---

---

Do you realize that the behavioral cage you've tried to place Maharaji into is entirely based on theory and doesn't apply to anyone else on earth? Do you apply the same standard to what a brilliant musician is supposed to act like, what a painter is supposed to eat, should architects enjoy after dinner cognacs? How much should a writer weigh? What should or shouldn't Ray Charles smoke? How long should a mathematician's hair be? Are exceptionally perceptive people not allowed to notice beauty in earthly as well as ephemeral formats? Does that make them 'lower', higher or neither?


---

---

---

Again, you persist in deflecting the main issues into these 'red-herring' ideas. Neither I nor anyone I know has tried to 'place M into a behavioural cage' (that wouldn't be a slogan now would it? Just joshing!) Seriously, no rational or wisdom-loving person would question or judge M (or any teacher, or anyone for that matter) about issues of deep importance, based upon the length of his hair or his diet or weight or superficial markers. Come now, this is not the issue. The main issue has more to do with his being honest and straightforward about his claims and revisions of claims, to acknowledge and try to rectify his human fuck-ups (please excuse the term, but they are legion and well-documented elsewhere), and to diminish or dismantle the abhorrent citadel of greed that is his most evident life's work.

You know, 'exceptionally perceptive people' are going to notice beauty in earthly as well as ephemeral formats whether they are 'allowed' to or not. This also is not the question. No one denies anyone that right. The point is, Harry, many of us have noted a profound imbalance in our lives as cogs in M's world, K notwithstanding. Part of that has to do with the dissonance between M's relentlessly vaunted 'divinity' and the abject codependency of the average premie. So, does that make them 'lower', higher or neither? You tell me.

Best wishes,
Carl

P.S.: Here is a selection from Lao Tzu. Hope you won't object that it predates our era by 2500 years or so!

'Be humble and you will remain entire.'
He who has little will receive.
He who has much will be embarrassed.
Therefore the Sage keeps to One and becomes the standard for the world.
He does not display himself; therefore he shines.
He does not approve himself; therefore he is noted.
He does not praise himself; therefore he has merit.
He does not glory in himself; therefore he excels.
And because he does not compete, therefore no one in the world can compete with him.
The ancient saying 'Be humble and you will remain entire' --
Can this be regarded as mere empty words?
Indeed he shall return home entire.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 10:03:32 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: ggg
Subject: I Agree. Brilliant Post
Message:

Carl's Post very eloquently states the core of Maha/Rawat's Deceit. a Must Read.....Carl..if you are around, I would very much enjoy hearing more from you on this Forum...All The Best..Rich

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 01, 2001 at 15:13:26 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Carl's post BEST OF LIFES GREAT
Message:

Beautifully written, Carl.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index