Livia Dowte -:- ex-premie.org -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 09:46:15 (EST)

__ magiclara -:- Re: ex-premie.org -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:31:10 (EST)

__ keith -:- Re: ex-premie.org -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:13:03 (EST)

__ Tim G -:- Welcome Livia -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 14:25:04 (EST)

__ Kelly -:- Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video' -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 13:29:51 (EST)

__ __ magiclara -:- Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video' -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:26:35 (EST)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video' -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:47:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video' -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:54:53 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video' -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:59:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video' -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 17:03:24 (EST)

__ JHB -:- Re: ex-premie.org -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 10:49:42 (EST)

__ __ Mirror -:- Re: ex-premie.org -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 13:08:10 (EST)

__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: ex-premie.org -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 15:52:27 (EST)

__ Silvia -:- welcome Livia -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 09:49:49 (EST)

__ __ Livia Dowte -:- Re: welcome Livia -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 17:58:31 (EST)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- Re: welcome Livia -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:55:02 (EST)

__ __ __ Anandaji -:- Re: welcome Livia -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 22:15:10 (EST)

__ __ __ housemom -:- Re: welcome Livia -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 21:52:56 (EST)

__ __ __ __ magiclara -:- Hello and welcome Housemum nt -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 06:29:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ housemom -:- thank u, great site!( nt) -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:10:50 (EST)

__ __ __ silvia -:- Re: welcome Livia -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 20:00:09 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Livia Dowte -:- premie friends -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 06:16:32 (EST)

__ __ __ suchabanana -:- Welcome, Livia! -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 19:25:15 (EST)

__ __ __ Disculta -:- Re: welcome Livia -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:11:28 (EST)

__ __ __ Kelly -:- Re: welcome Livia****GREAT POST ***** must read -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:09:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Hey Kelly, you're up late xx nt. -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:13:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Re: Hey Kelly, you're up late xx nt. -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:23:43 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- It's 3 in the afternoon -:- Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:35:26 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- The other universe -:- Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 05:49:49 (EST)

Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 09:46:15 (EST)
From: Livia Dowte
Email: None
To: All
Subject: ex-premie.org
Message:

It seems to be impossible to get onto Ex-Premie.Org again. Could the site be under attack? Is this technically possible? (I don't know much about these things.) Also, is anyone out there actually making copies of 'Passages' and the Atlanta video? I'm feeling a need to see them, and I think a lot of other people over here could do with seeing them too. I'm in England but would be happy to send cheque etc to cover costs.
I love reading all the stuff on this forum and thank you all for being there.
With love.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:31:10 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: ex-premie.org
Message:

Hi Livia and welcome. I don't know if anyone in the UK has a version we could play here. I suppose we could buy one but it goes against the grain to give money to gooey. Might be worth it though if we could have a get together like the americans did.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:13:03 (EST)
From: keith
Email: keith@yahoo.com
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: ex-premie.org
Message:

Yeh, same here. Can't get onto the site today. Just new to the the site and related forums etc., and wonder what the problem is.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 14:25:04 (EST)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Welcome Livia
Message:

HI Livia
Welcome aboard. It's fun going thru the entrails of our past involvment and sometimes quite illuminating too. Oh God! When I think of all the 'satsang' I gave in those early days to my nearest and dearest as well as complete strangers on trains. Maybe I've grown up a bit at last. Being a late developer means there's lots to look forward to.

Love from Tim

PS Any relation to Anna Livia (The River Liffey that runs thru Dublin)?
There was a local man down here in W Cork who told me that his grandmother was 'Descended from a mermaid'

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 13:29:51 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video'
Message:

Hi Livia,

Lovely name! I wrestled with that whole doubt thing throughout my premie career, and have since resolved to always leave room for doubt in my mind.

I have a copy of the Atlanta training video, but I don't live in England, I live in Wales! This video was the next to final straw for me and very instrumental in my exit. Some premie friends recorded it from a satellite broadcast and I copied that recording. During the first few weeks of my awakening from the cult trance last year I watched it often with a sort of horrified fascination, it served as a doubt eliminator. If ever I started to wonder whether my 'evil mind' was leading me astray...I watched it again. Someone has suggested, in a thread below...was it Disculta? the brilliant idea that we supply this video as an exiting tool! I have sent copies to a few people including Mike Dettmers in USA who couldn't view it because of course my copy is in PAL, but he could hear the goo's voice and that was bad enough for him!

I think maybe we should have a London Latvian video show...What say Marianne? but even so, I would be happy to send you and anyone else who wants one, a copy. (for a small fee! Thinks...maybe I can make my fortune!) ..Please do e-mail me about this.
All the very best to you,
Karen

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:26:35 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video'
Message:

Hi Kelly

I will e mail you re the vid. I think a Latvian get together is a marv idea. I saw the passages vid at Nottingam last year, when I was being sucked back in to the cult (only for the one night thankfully) It was shown after two days of mind numbingly tedious Wadahamar garbage. Compared to that and given the mindset I had at the time, passages seemed to be good. The other stuff was really really bad. I would like to see that one again especially with a load of ex premies and a gin and tonic.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:47:16 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: magiclara
Subject: Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video'
Message:

Hi magiclara!
The last time I attended a programme was Harrogate. I was appalled and well on my way out. This was the first 'Auto K' session and I realised then that it was all over!
Would love to watch any of these farces, or do I mean faeces? with you and other ex or post premies, especially with a gin and tonic in hand!
Karen

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:54:53 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To:

Subject: Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video'
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 16:59:04 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video'
Message:

Wow, what a party! Who's bringing the pretzils??!!
But seriously, we must talk.
Kelly

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 17:03:24 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: ex-premie.org and 'that video'
Message:

Have e mailed to you. Yep we need to party. We will talk.Titter.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 10:49:42 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: ex-premie.org
Message:

The site appears to be down again. I've raised a ticket but I don't have any information as to the cause.

Regarding the videos, unless you have a player that handles NTSC (US standard) and PAL *European standard) you will need to get the videos converted.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 13:08:10 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: ex-premie.org
Message:

John, couldn't you (or anyone) copy the site to one or more backup servers? Make it available through one or more alternate URL's?

Just wondering,
Mirror

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 15:52:27 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Re: ex-premie.org
Message:

Mirror,

This is a possibility, but the alternative sites (mirror sites) would have to have different domain names and ip addresses, so anyone looking for www.ex-premie.org would still get a not found message. I suppose one idea is for one site to have one page which simply has links to the other sites, and readers can choose which one to go to.

John.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 09:49:49 (EST)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: welcome Livia
Message:

assuming you never posted before.

When did you leave the cult? Have you something to share with us?

Best ()) regards,

silvia

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 17:58:31 (EST)
From: Livia Dowte
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: Re: welcome Livia
Message:

Hi Silvia, Tim G and others

Thanks for your welcome. Yes I have posted before but only a couple of times and only in the last few days. I've been reading EPO and Forum 7 for about 2 weeks now and like somebody above I'm soon to be ex-wife and ex-mum if I don't slow down a bit. But it's so compelling to read it all, and I'm someone who reads every last new blue post bar the 'nt's'. I think it just obsesses you when you first find it because there is just so much being said. I received Knowledge in 72 and practised pretty diligently for 10 years or so. Around 83 like many people it seems, I started to drift a bit, making new friends outside the premie world, and working in an interesting field at last - the arts. What a lift that was after years of useless jobs and spending any spare money on getting to festivals all over the world etc... But all this time from then till now I've been living in this weird limbo state, not really practising Knowledge at all but still feeling an unshakeable faith in Maharaji and all of it. Neither one thing nor the other and not a truly healthy place to be.

What had been bothering me for years was Maharaji's apparent contempt for any sort of accomplishment, as if the only thing that was worth doing was to devote one's life to him and Knowledge. Which gives you a weird feeling of guilt when you do anything else even when it feels right. Which puts you at cross-purposes with yourself... and all around you, you can't help seeing good people without Knowledge, leading good, ethical, creative, rich lives, and something just wasn't adding up. Especially when you look at the participating premies and they all seem somehow sad, lost and almost empty. Around where I live they do anyway.

But try to put any of this to a premie for a decent discussion - well, you might as well forget it. I tried a few times to express these feelings to what I felt were close friends and just got total incomprehension or naked hostility. And you couldn't talk about it to any non-premie, so you're left in this odd state of having absolutely NO ONE to talk to about a very real dilemma. My way of dealing with it was to push it to the back of my mind and just carry on in the hope that one day it would feel right to start participating again, or - something.

Until I started reading EPO. And then everything explodes in your head....I suppose where I am now is in the middle of the process of becoming an ex. I'm going through some odd feelings of panic, sadness, confusion of identity, embarrassment and even guilt at how I proselytised for years...and today for the first time, feelings of anger for wasted years.... I know you've all been through the same thing, and a lot of you without EPO and this forum for support, and I admire your courage through what must have been very lonely and painful times. I don't know if I could have done it, and I'm not through with the process yet as turbulent dreams every night testify.

It's ironic I know, but some of the posts here remind me almost of satsang in the early days - the outpourings of honest feelings and a wholehearted attempt to speak the truth and nothing but the truth. And when you compare what's said here to the brainwashed auto-speak and revisionism of premies today.....who would have ever thought it would end up like this?

I do feel that in the early days Maharaji was genuinely trying to spread what he felt was the Knowledge of God to a troubled world. (I may be conclusively proved wrong here too - (sigh!)) I was so sure that the enthusiasm and love we felt wasn't just the need for a personal experience but the will to help make the world a better and happier place. I know I felt a genuine love in those days and the premies, well, a lot of them anyway! were wonderful, and I love a lot of them still. But what has happened with EV since about 1983 has just looked and felt too strange. Maybe the rot set in when Maharaji for some unknown reason stopped premies from 'giving satang' at meetings, which I always felt was a big mistake. But of course you couldn't say anything to anyone because he didn't make mistakes...

Enough already. So much to say and not enough time to say it, and it's all being said every day here in any case!

A big heartfelt thanks again to all of you.

With love, Livia

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 17:55:02 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: mailto:karen@ringrose
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: welcome Livia
Message:

Livia,
That was a wonderful post, and expressed so clearly many of my own dilemmas when dealing with the goo's contradictions et al. His habit of pouring scorn upon anybody who had even read a book...something I'm sure he has never managed to do. Today I got a copy of Passages and am copying it for a few people. Do you want it? let me know.
Karen

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 22:15:10 (EST)
From: Anandaji
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: welcome Livia
Message:

Livia
---

A hearty welcome. I just came upon EPO last month. My script reads almost exactly like yours: including the panic, identity issues, etc.
---
same for most everyone else here. That in itself means a lot to me in terms of community and healing possibilities. I am from the class of '73. I also agree that what I first found here had the pleasing sound of early satsang. Yeah! Satsang lives!

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 21:52:56 (EST)
From: housemom
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: welcome Livia
Message:

Hi Livia and all,
I've just begun posting, though I've been away from goo for a long time, but it is so interesting to me what a HUGE charge I still have. Almost after every post I write, I think, 'was that okay to say? Did I offend anyone? Am I too angry/outspoken/offensive?' When I left, I completely disassociated myself from almost everyone and everything having to do with my past ashram/cult existence, and now I'm beginning to entertain two thoughts: Because there was such disapproval about moving away from the cult, I HAD to make a surgical cut, and two, I have post traumatic stress related to Rawat and the environment surrounding him. Interesting to discover after all this time.

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 06:29:41 (EST)
From: magiclara
Email: None
To: housemom
Subject: Hello and welcome Housemum nt
Message:

t

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 13:10:50 (EST)
From: housemom
Email: None
To: magiclara
Subject: thank u, great site!( nt)
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 20:00:09 (EST)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: welcome Livia
Message:

But of course you couldn't say anything to anyone because he didn't make mistakes...

Thesecret maharaji. Yuck! How different all look from the 'outside'.
Thanks for writing. I left about two years a go and like you, I wanted ready it all. As you say, to be able to express yourself is such a good feeling, unlike the cult who lately nothing can be discussed openly. All revolves around devotion and yes, all the premies I know think he is the living lord. What about your premie friends?

Love,

silvia())

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 06:16:32 (EST)
From: Livia Dowte
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: premie friends
Message:

My premie friends definitely think he's the living lord, and to be honest I probably did too deep down until a couple of weeks ago. I tackled one friend a few months back about the revisionism. I said 'Come on, you KNOW he said he was the perfect master and that the perfect master was the lord in human form. You KNOW he did!!' and my friend's face went all twisted and weird as he tried to deny it. I couldn't believe it really. I mean, this friend used to be SUCH a devotee - he wrote songs with the word 'lord' in, and I was there with him when we all sang 'The lord of the universe has come to us this day' in front of Maharaji and I didn't see Maharaji saying 'Come now, come now, we mustn't go over the top here!'

I tried to tackle another friend about revisionism the other day and got a weird response, as if I was the one who must have been 'in my head' for ever interpreting things that way back then. But I'm sure deep down she still believes he's the lord, so there must be some mental gymnastics going on in her head for sure.

Another one, who is also one of my very closest friends, implied the same thing - that I'D had a need for certainties at the time, so believed he was the lord. But I REMEMBER this person giving satsang to aspirants and telling them that the lord was here in human form!!! He then went on to remind me of the magical time we'd had back in the beginning (true). His view that I was looking for negatives and that I couldn't handle changes of definition, and that I was risking throwing the baby out with the bathwater etc. So I guess he's living in the limbo state I was in, and is happy to stay there - well, that's up to him.

In each of these cases I encountered a very strong reaction. ('She's leaving room for doubt in her mind!!! AARGH!!!) I think I'd better leave them alone until they are ready to question things themselves. After all, this can cause a considerable amount of mental upheaval so it's not surprising that premies want to stay where they are - it's safer that way, for now anyway.

So yes, my premie friends all still believe he's the lord even if they don't say they do, because to them he's still perfect in everything he says and does.

With love
Livia

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 19:25:15 (EST)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Welcome, Livia!
Message:

lotsa luv from us, too.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:11:28 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: welcome Livia
Message:

Welcome. I loved what you said.

This line caught my eye:

'I was so sure that the enthusiasm and love we felt wasn't just the need for a personal experience but the will to help make the world a better and happier place.'

It was. You are right. Many of us WERE in it out of full or partial desire to see the world a better and happier place as well as our navel-gazing, and if MJ wasn't, isn't, or was only partially sincere, it has NOTHING TO DO WITH US. That's his business and he is of course reaping whatever he has sown, and we can also reap the fruits of our own sincerity, and now we can use our energy more sensibly.

Just wanted to say this. We've discussed this point before on this forum (before you came) and many people felt it was important to 'reclaim' their own sincerity and not feel like they have been polluted by any of MJ or EV's agendas.

love ktd

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:09:47 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Livia Dowte
Subject: Re: welcome Livia****GREAT POST ***** must read
Message:

[nt]

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:13:03 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Hey Kelly, you're up late xx nt.
Message:


[ Page Link ]

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:23:43 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Hey Kelly, you're up late xx nt.
Message:

Whadya mean? you're up early! Surely?!
Hey Disculta, I am once again reminded of my first postings here. You were nearly the first to respond.....I still use your phrases, because they can't be betterred! eg 'awakening from the cult trance' this is the way I describe it to everyone now, but it's your phrase!

Hey, how did you like your Latvian?..We will do it again here, for sure.

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Date: Tues, Jan 15, 2002 at 18:35:26 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: It's 3 in the afternoon
Message:

Are we in different dimensions?

I just loved the video night and think this is the BEST technique for healthy exiting the 'cult trance.' Thanks for the thanks!

love ktd

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Date: Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 05:49:49 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: The other universe
Message:

I,ve just heard someone on the radio talking about parallel dimensions.
He claims that time can go backwards, no problem, and that the only reason our tea gets cold rather than hot is because the universe is expanding not contracting. Makes sense to me!
He's written a book called The other universe, but I didn't catch his name.

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