Patrick Conlon -:- The Earthquake in Gujerat -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 19:11:56 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Thanks Pat, for the insight on this -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 06:31:34 (GMT)

__ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Francesca I was just thinking -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 09:09:56 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- The City of Leicester... -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 23:06:03 (GMT)

__ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Gujeratis multiple gurus -:- Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 02:34:44 (GMT)

__ Charles S -:- More earthquake news from India... -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 19:46:46 (GMT)

__ __ Curious George (female) -:- HAve sent you an email -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:05:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- HAve sent you an email -:- Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:06:37 (GMT)


Pat Conlon -:- The cult is dead now can we talk about feelings -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:44:41 (GMT)

__ Postie -:- Pat, did you really want to discuss feelings... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:21:00 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Postie, I should have repsonded -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:51:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ Postie -:- Thanks Pat - I feel better now (n/t) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 23:22:23 (GMT)

__ Postie -:- Talking about feelings - important topic -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 17:30:10 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Talking about feelings - important topic -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 00:32:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ Postie -:- Talking about feelings - important topic -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 01:04:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Postie, I'm re-reading William James and Huxley -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 01:36:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Small world. So far WJ is illuminating. n/t -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 02:52:33 (GMT)

__ Scott T. -:- The cult is dead now can we talk about feelings -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 08:29:32 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- for the next time you have surgery -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:16:10 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Susan, pain scale -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 01:19:21 (GMT)

__ cq -:- ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' - -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:04:04 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' - -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:08:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' - -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:36:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Indian premies -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:41:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Had to look it up - diaspora - die as poor as a -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:04:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- The Gujerati diaspora -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:43:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Die as poor as ...I love it! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:49:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Die as poor as ...I love it! -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 12:42:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Kelly, any time you want to talk Indian premies -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:12:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Kelly, any time you want to talk Indian premies -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:33:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Kelly, initial stages of exit -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:01:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Kelly, initial stages of exit -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:40:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hey, I read that! -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:02:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Hey, you can still read after all that Air Lingus -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:57:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Kelly, on the nose- hedging my bets -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:15:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- From a Latvian - Don't Worry (hee, hee) -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:59:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- From a Latvian - Don't Worry (hee, hee) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:09:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- The Venue - March 10th -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:18:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Die as poor as ...I love it! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:52:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hindu hyperbole and over-emotionalism -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:07:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- OMIGHODDD - did I say 'minorites'? oops. sorry. nt -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:19:26 (GMT)


cq -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:02:50 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- The common garden vegetable -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:56:10 (GMT)

__ kev -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:13:35 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:46:20 (GMT)

__ __ janet -:- welcome kev-welcome to F5 and to your real self -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:43:29 (GMT)

__ __ Joe -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:23:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ kev -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 20:02:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Connie -:- Dear Joe, I mentioned friends also.......nt -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:14:21 (GMT)

__ __ Kelly -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:03:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- The not so common or garden ex-premie -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 02:19:17 (GMT)

__ __ Connie -:- The common or garden premie - then and now -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:50:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- The common or garden ex-premie -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 02:13:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Connie -:- The common or garden ex-premie -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 13:53:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Welcome kev and one point about us oldtimers -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 06:34:30 (GMT)

__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Welcome Kev and thanks for your post -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:25:53 (GMT)

__ Charles S. -:- ''Satsang'' by new premies now... -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:21:50 (GMT)

__ __ such -:- like co-dependents of the reinvented 'New Nixon'nt -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:51:55 (GMT)

Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 19:11:56 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The Earthquake in Gujerat
Message:

7.9 on the Richter scale lasting 2 minutes.

2,300 known dead, 14,000 injured and 13,000 feared dead.

The Loma Prieta Quake of 89 in the San Francisco Bay Area was 7.1 and lasted 15 seconds with 65 dead. Everything in our house that could be moved was smashed. Unlike our usual 5 point quakes, it was violent enough to throw me to the floor and I crawled to a door-frame for cover. The house was cracked but inhabitable unlike many of our neighbors'. We lived on a hill from which we could see the explosions and fires in the Marina sending up a black cloud of smoke like a mushroom. Then the sun set and the city was in darkness because there was no electricity. All you could see was the glow of the fires in the Marina. Everyone came out into the streets to compare notes or because they were afraid when the aftershocks began.

The quake in Bhuj was 7.9 and lasted for 2 minutes.

If you look at a map of India (there's a link at the bottom of this post) you will see that the triangle whose west leg is the Indus valley, east leg the Ganges and south leg the 20th parallel is Aryan/Vedantic/Mogul India from which all of M's devotees come. The Beas cults began in Punjab close to Gujerat on the west coast. The Gujeratis have a history of Radhasoami gurus and swamis that date back to before Shri Hans.

The largest diaspora of Gujeratis outside of India is in South Africa. The banya (merchant) caste came to Natal/Kwazulu in the 1880s. Ghandi lived there for 21 years and his grandchildren from his oldest (estranged son) still live there. Brides are still brought from Gujerat to Durban and many of the wealthiest banyas still own family properties and other real estate in Gujerat.

Shri H's mahatmas arrived in Gujerat in the early sixties and immediately went to South Africa. There are premies in South Africa who have ''had knowledge'' long before Mr Rawat. (Perhaps I will one day incur Jim's wrath when I describe the saintliness of the two bais, lady mahatmas, whom I got to know before they died in the late 80s. It may too subjectively novelistic for his objective evidentiary tastes.)

There is a strong cross-cultural tie between Gujerat and South Africa. Emigrants from the states of Gujerat and Tamil-Naidoo (in the southern dravidian part of India) represent the largest part of the Indian diaspora. The former emigrated voluntarily and the latter as servants indentured to the British East India Company which managed the Raj.

Although both groups went to the same countries (South Africa, the British West Indies, Mauritius, Fiji) only Gujerati banyas follow M and they are loathe to let people from other states or even castes in on the secret. (One day I will tell how Mr Rawat prevented Knowledge from being given to anyone in South Africa in the seventies except Gujeratis and Europeans.)

Many of the Gujerati banyas in the USA are from the Patel clan and have cornered the motel business or perhaps your local cheap hotel is owned by a Patel. The highest clan on the banya totem pole are the Sonis, ''jewelers,'' who bankrolled M in South Africa until Mata Ji denounced her youngest son as a playboy in 1974. They then withdrew their financial support. I visited them once in their beach cottage - more like a mansion - where M had stayed during his trip to Durban with Milky Cole in 1973.

The point of all this is that outside of the Aryan triangle of north India (the states of Gujerat, Punjab, Uttar Pradesh as well as the nation of Nepal) the only other Indians who are devotees of M are the Gujeratis of the diaspora. They all have relatives back in Gujerat. They are a very stoical, conservative, pious and family-oriented race of people (in South Africa they are called ''brown Jews'') and will be grief-stricken by this earthquake.

These are the people (and the Jewish communists) alongside of whom I fought against apartheid in the early sixties and with whom I went to jail. These are the people whom my white trash family called ''coolies.'' These are the people who showed me in my anti-apartheid days and in my two years living in their ''ashram'' in Durban how decent civilization could be if we all worked hard, cared for the poor and loved our children. They spoil there kids rotten with kisses and kindness and don't give them a penny unless they work for it.

The Gujeratis are the largest group of educated Indians who are premies and I think they deserve a more honest guru than the one they got or even better - no guru at all. Many of the kids of these old-fashioned merchants are scientists and are now on line. They would just like the facts. This forum is probably quite distasteful to them. I hope that they will read all the information on EPO before looking at FV.

I also hope that they don't see it only as group therapy for anonymous spoilt white brats whining about how they were the subjects of a failed experiment by a Hindu ''holy man.'' I hope they will look deeper and see that the anger expressed here by former ashram premies was caused by their guru's incompetence and callous disregard for the people on whom he was conducting his experiments.

I also hope that, if you have any evidence of civil tort (perhaps employer sexual harassment) or criminal wrong-doing (such as the alleged vehicular manslaughter) by Mr Rawat, you have a corroborating eyewitness and, if you have a non-disclosure agreement, please remember that a criminal investigation over-rides it.

In other words, if you wish to bring serious charges against Mr Rawat, please be sure that they are provable. I personally cannot do so and the only contribution that I can make towards discrediting him is philosophical in that I believe that the tradition of bhakti-guru is no longer necessary or desirable for anyone at all or either it belongs only in India or the Indian diaspora where they know how to take their gurus with a generous pinch of salt and a lot of garam masala.

PS I know that the group therapy on FV is necessary for most of us and am not criticizing it. It is simply that it is confined to a couple of thousands of white people and is a fairly small problem in the world-wide scheme of things. FV is also a highly addictive interactive soap opera and I know I will still enjoy watching all of us thrashing it out so conscientiously.

Map of India

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 06:31:34 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Thanks Pat, for the insight on this
Message:

Unfortunately, I just checked the news and it's now 11,000 dead and rising. Just horrible. Compared to other countries in the world, we've never had any big-time disasters here in the US. But of course, to someone who has lost a loved one in an earthquake or other catastrophe, one person lost is too many.

My prayer list this week is just outrageous. This year is off to a ripping start, I'm afraid. Thanks again for bringing this to our attention and putting it in perspective.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 09:09:56 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Francesca I was just thinking
Message:

as I scrolled up and looked at the latest posts, that I hardly ever bend your ear by email anymore. I'm spending probably too much time here. I'm a people watcher and this is definitely a motherlode.

I can remember saying to you about a year ago that it would be nice for you and me and another friend of mine to have an e-group to discuss these sorts of things. Well now I've got it in spades.

The quake in Bhuj took place on (Indian) Independence Day. Gujerat state's most famous native son, Ghandi, helped to bring about independence from the British Empire.

I just love your unique take on buddhism. I am probably a buddhist - zen - but I haven't studied it much. I skimmed through all the religions and only really read more about hinduism because I wanted to understand Mr Rawat's trip.

Otherwise I find all religions just a mixture of plain old folkloric common sense and a superstitious, non-scientific stab at answering the question, ''why?'' But having done pharmacy for 30 years of my 54, I think the same about science.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 23:06:03 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: The City of Leicester...
Message:

... England ,also has a high Gujerati population.

Most of Rawat's English/Indian following is from there.

I've always found them to be very nice people ,if a bit standoffish (but we're used to that in England so it's ok).

Terrible about the earthquake ,there must be many in Leicester who have lost loved ones .

 

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jan 28, 2001 at 02:34:44 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Gujeratis multiple gurus
Message:

Hi Bin Liner. I heard that Bubblegumjee did a program in Leicester a few years back and all of Ratwat's premies went along for the satsang. In Durban the premies used to attend regular Krishna satsang as well as Ratwat's and any new pundit or swami who swam into town.

Their altars at home often had pics of Ratwat, Ghandi, their favorite swami and their ancestor who crossed the Indian Ocean to Natal/KwaZulu. All decked with marigolds and to which they sang arti. They treat Ratwat like just one of many people they admire.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 19:46:46 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: More earthquake news from India...
Message:

Here is a link to an Indian news website:

More India Earthquake News

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 18:05:02 (GMT)
From: Curious George (female)
Email: None
To: Charles S
Subject: HAve sent you an email
Message:

Dear Patrick,

Where do you live? Africa, England or U.S. or none of the above.

Curious

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jan 29, 2001 at 19:06:37 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Curious George (female)
Subject: HAve sent you an email
Message:

Charles and I live in California. I sent you email.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

 

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:44:41 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The cult is dead now can we talk about feelings
Message:

like ordinary people please without constantly challenging each others' sincerity and semantic abilities? I definitely am not advocating that FV become a nursery for ''inner children'' (slap the brats) but how about we relax the unspoken rule that we all be lexicographical geniuses and hand out a few honorary poetic licences?

Jim and Michael Dettmers and some others have been conversing about language, semantics and communication.
How does one communicate feelings in words?

After I had surgery 4 months ago they rigged me up with a morphine drip. In order to match the dosage to my needs the nurse asked me what my pain was on a scale from one to ten. My brain suddenly went into the Windows blue-screen fatal error mode. What is a ''one'' pain? How bad is a ''ten'' pain?

The blue-screen lasted so long that I eventually just said ''ten'' to be on the safe side. Next time the nurse came I asked her what the difference between a ''one'' and a ''ten'' on the pain scale was. It was her turn to do the blue-screen short-circuit.

She could have pinched my left arm and said,''That's a one'' and punched my right arm and said, ''That's a five. Now let's see what a ten feels like,'' as she thought about what sadistic torture to inflict on me. She'd loose her job.

Pain and pleasure. Sensation. Taste in both senses of the word. Emotions. Feelings. How do you communicate them in words in cyberspace?

I just watched the movie ''Rhapsody in Blue'' the 1945 version of Gershwin's life. It's heavy on the sappy Hollywood emotions but the man's music sends me like darshan never did but Ham thinks I'm perverse to like anything but house mixes and Jim plays psychedelic trip ass tracks. It's useless to argue about taste - musical or otherwise.

My answer to ''How does one communicate feelings in words?'' is: ''You have to have an up-to-date poetic licence'' or ''Don't bother. Say it with music instead.''

Are feelings even worth communicating?

What triggered this off was a sentence in an obscure post here by someone with whom I am not familiar. He/she said: ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' as he/she stood in the grounds of Prem Nagar. It was a lovely picture that was painted.

But had this person never before been thrilled by music or love or sex or psychedelics or poetry or a trip to the circus when he/she was young and impressionable?

One of the most crippling aspects of Maharaj Jism is the focus on one person as the source of all inspiration. The results of this are amply documented by the doggerel regularly written by Capt Rawat and his unimaginative minions.

And while I'm talking about feelings let's also talk about imagination. Just kidding. I don't want to give the objectivist materialists and scientific rationalists apoplexies.

 


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:21:00 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, did you really want to discuss feelings...
Message:

... or what?

Your above post above seemed to indicate that you were, with understandable reticence, wanting to open up conversation about feelings / emotions presumably re: M&K. Some comments further down about the emotional way in which the Indian Gujerati diaspora approach the whole Guru / Devotee genre were informational and help explain why those particular groups of people are attracted to the Captain. But I thought you wanted to discuss emotion rather than information about a particular group.

Emotion / feeling is core and key to the Bhakti Ju-Ju you so cleverly have put a name to. So, I replied with a post ('Talking about feelings - important topic' ) describing my own personal emotional evolution and how nostalgia has a way of hooking you back in to the trip. I guess I was dissappointed (feeling) and pissed off (feeling) that my post got no response, especially from you the thread originator.

I understand that many posts are read by many people without any response at all so. The reality is that this forum, like many others, is a cross between a Vanity Press and Dear Diary - sometimes a conversation, too. If a post gets accolades, that's wonderful for the ego but otherwise, as a diary or journal it's therapeutic just to write it all down. When I post flippantly or informationally or cleverly (I'd like to think so) I'm not as heavily 'invested' as with an emotional post.

Postie - been stood up so I'm talking to myself

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:51:41 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Postie, I should have repsonded
Message:

But I did not feel like making some quickie wisecrack. Yes, I did want to talk about ''feeling'' but not about ''that feeling'' or nostalgia. I really want to take back those words like feeling and experience which have been debased by Rawfat.

I will answer seriously as soon as I have some more time. This thread took a swerve of the subject pretty soon and I went with that but I'll be back to address your post.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 23:22:23 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks Pat - I feel better now (n/t)
Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 17:30:10 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Talking about feelings - important topic
Message:

Pat,

I once heard Milton Glaser speak about communicating love. He's the penultimate graphic designer who created the now ubiquitous 'I Love NY' symbol where Love is replaced by the heart symbol. In his talk he showed examples of bumper stickers that bastardized his simple, elegant and maginficent icon. Everyting from I Love Cleveland, I Love My Rottweiler, I Love Spiro's Pizza (from Greece), I Love So and So's Drycleaners (Taiwan) ad infinitum. Anyway, the upshot of his talk was that emotions or the one we talk about most - LOVE - is the singularly most difficult to express without sounding sacharrine. Everyone says it, card companies make billions saying it but it takes courage to truly talk about it.

In answer to your central question 'are feelings even worth communicating?' the answer is yes. At least to the extent that I am aware of what I feel and why.

Pertinent example: After coming to the point where I no longer needed M as an authority, I quit practicing K or going to events for 7 years. I became nostalgic (feeling) for 'those old times' and 'that experiance' and 'the company of truth'. So my wife and I decide to go to a Long Beach event just to see some old friends and 'check it out' again. No expectation, no anticipation, no longing - well probably some longing for intentional community and comaraderie.

There was a slide show going of the past 25 years of GMJ / M with background devotional songs - M's greatest hits done as Muzak. Even though I logically understood that it was manipulative, I just sat there and drank it in. I was hit broadside with feeling. Emotionally, I was rehooked in 'that familiar and vulnerable place'. It made no sense to me but I became overwhelmed and 'blissed-out'. I actually remember sitting there, not following M's Mobius ramblings, but in fact wishing / hoping I could be sort of swept away and taken care of. This is what I call the White Knight Syndrome in which 'that experiance' is going to lift me up and beyond this mundane world. Fortunately for me, I recognized the feeling as the one that drew me into K and the ashram back in 1972.

Hey I know that sounds fucked up, but you seem sincere in your request for talking about emotions so here it is.

The whole point of the Long Beach story is that it's so easy to think that 'nostalgia' is 'spirit' or that Knowledge is 'that feeling'. Continuing back to 'that place' of nostalgia and mushiness and attributing it to Maharaji is no more than spiritual masturbation. It does feel good but not as satisfying as the real thing. It takes real courage to own my own feelings. It takes real vigilance to not fall for the cheap pull of the heartstings. Hey, if I want to have 'that feeling' Steven Spielberg is the master of emotional manipulation. I felt like crying when E.T. went home fer Chrissakes and E.T. was a rubber puppet!

Remembering historical progression from being 'saved' by the White Knight in 1972 to taking back the reigns of my life about 1990, I was able to logically short circuit that old emotional wiring and just say no. As I said above, once I became my own authority, I no longer needed M's bullying authority trip.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 00:32:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Talking about feelings - important topic
Message:

Hi Postie,

When I posted: ''The cult is dead now can we talk about feelings'' I was thinking mostly that Jim and Michael call us subjectivists to task when we use sloppy language. I applaud them for that because if it were not for my study of the objectivists and rationalists of western culture I would probably still be stuck at the Locust Feet.

The second point that I wanted to make is that there are subjective experiences and we may now be able talk about them without being inhibited because the urug cheapened words like ''feeling'' and made us overly suspicious of subjective experiences.

I now know that all those ''feelings'' that I had in satsang, darshan etc were because I was ''open.'' By ''open'' I mean my faith had been evoked and I was feeling relaxed and impressionable. You can't fall in love with soemone if you are not ''open'' to them. My faith had been awakened and I was open to sensations.

I began to loose interest in the urug when I realized that I could have 2 hours of mindless bliss for $4 by renting a Spielberg movie. The last event I went to was Long Beach 96 and I too was swept away by the group high but afterwards I felt dirty because the snob part of me knew that it was basically ''revivalist'' mass psychology.

I can enjoy my own feelings without being part of some group or having my emotions manipulated by a Hindu Billy Graham and I would like to see us exes being a little less touchy about talking about our subjective experiences. As I said I don't want FV to become some touchy-feely forum but would just like it that we were able to talk about feelings without being analyzed to death by the semantic and pedantic material objectivists.


it's so easy to think that 'nostalgia' is 'spirit' or that Knowledge is 'that feeling'. Continuing back to 'that place' of nostalgia and mushiness and attributing it to Maharaji is no more than spiritual masturbation

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 01:04:21 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Talking about feelings - important topic
Message:

Yes I agree. One should be able to express whatever perspective one has of this huge subject without ridicule. After all, it's an overbearing authoritarian's ridicule we are removing ourselves from. In M's 'talks' there inevitably is some demeaning tone that shames anyone who doesn't think the way he does.

There are as many ways to view our involvement with M and K as there are posters. Looking at it from a purely logical mindset is as limited as saying 'only MY experience matters'. I think it was emotion-fueled zealotry that got many of us into this and nostalgia for those emotions that keep many of the old-timers 'high'.

I've begun reading William Jame's 'Variety of Religious Experiences' as recommended by Roy and find it enlightening. Should have read it years ago. His first chapter plays with the idea that you can acknowledge emotions as emotions without attributing them to being 'spiritual' or 'religious' experiences. He humorously points out that while religious critics point to neuroses as the cause of the Saints religious visions, one could just as well see the cause as being based in their digestive systems. Food for thought.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 01:36:23 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Postie, I'm re-reading William James and Huxley
Message:

(Aldous) both of whom I read before getting into Maharaj Jism. Needless to say I understand them both better now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 02:52:33 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Small world. So far WJ is illuminating. n/t
Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 08:29:32 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: The cult is dead now can we talk about feelings
Message:

I feel as happy as a lesbian in a hardware store.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:16:10 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: for the next time you have surgery
Message:

your nurse should have been able to answer your question

 

pain scale

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 01:19:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan, pain scale
Message:

Thanks. I guess mine was an 8 and I hope I don't have anymore surgery for a long time. I've had enough in the past 18 months to last me a lifetime.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:04:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' -
Message:

- amazing what a combination of the Delhi belly and haemorrhoids can do for you ...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:08:01 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' -
Message:

and warm tropical moonlit nights full of the smell of roses from Mata Ji's garden.

I loved Bab's stroy in her Journey where she told about cutting these roses and selling them to the local premies who could not afford food. The Rawats have been in business for a long time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:36:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' -
Message:

ah, but you see, Pat -

- those local premies who couldn't afford food could have been you or I (given a few more decades of splurging out on the expense of budget-draining trips to see him speak the same old same old)
.
.
.
It is serious though. The pressure on your average Indian premie must still be as great as it ever was. Why do I single out the Indian premies here? Well, having spent nearly three years on the Indian sub-continent (and I know why they call it that) - ahem - it really is tragic. Their faith in their guru is meant to define their self-worth.

Trouble is - getting a believer to re-examine their (quote) 'true' (endquote) belief - you'd think you were doing them a disservice or something.

It's easy to knock a religion when it's in its infancy as a cult. But when the belief-system has spread its roots - why, we'd be infringing their right to freedom of religion (or are we already?).

I must admit, as former insiders of the cult, our callousness with the the figurehead of the premies' devotion might shock outsiders. But, for god's sake, he's just a man, isn't he? Albeit a man who once preferred to be called 'Lord of the Universe'.

(and as such he deserves all he gets - especially since he now denies he ever claimed that).

The suckers were us. We'll have to get over that. Now, how many more suckers will we let him fleece?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:41:11 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Indian premies
Message:

cq, I was born and raised in Durban which has the largest population of Indians outside of India and I am thinking of writing a post aimed at the younger generation of the Gujerati diaspora who are all educated and on-line. I still enjoy the yoga but I would love to convince them that there is no need for a gooroo.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:04:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Had to look it up - diaspora - die as poor as a
Message:

... premie?

sorry 'bout that.
.
.
.
OK, diaspora=dispersion. In this case = ex-patriots, yes?

Well, South Africa never got much press for supporting the minorities, and IMO it's about time somebody did something to offset the global prejudice.

Kudos to you, Pat, as and when it works.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:43:03 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The Gujerati diaspora
Message:

in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Mauritius, UK and USA are Capt Rawat's only premies outside of India except for the 2 or 3 PAMs still hanging in there.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:49:57 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Die as poor as ...I love it!
Message:

I love India, and I love Indian premies, and although the cult is dying in the west, it really does seem to be thriving in India. Rawfat is there right now attending eight different events. Some of them for the first time outside of Delhi. This is a new departure, they have been working on this for the last few years. Whole families are receiving K, it is becoming acceptable and respectable.....and although I go along to some extent with Conlon and his theory of bhakti juju for the Hindu peasant classes. There is more to it than that... Not least the fact that there is quite a substantial Sikh following. I met and know many very well educated and intelligent Indian premies. They are among the nicest people I have ever known. The trouble is the simpler folk are very impressed by all the techno tricks. The set up in the Knowledge tent is such a bizarre mixture of ancient and modern technologies. A tent built of bamboo and bits of string, fitted with video monitors every five metres!!It must blow their minds.

And you should see their devotion, it is phenomenal. Yep, I reckon he's all washed up here, but sadly, I think he has a great future in India.

It's just the diaspora that's done for!
Cheers cq cu soon
Love Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 12:42:47 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Die as poor as ...I love it!
Message:

'.... and although the cult is dying in the west, it really does seem to be thriving in India.'

I met up with a couple of young mahatmas from different Indian groups and when I told them I used to be a devotee of Shri Hans's son, they said 'Oh, you mean Satpal'. The had never heard of prempal, or balyogeshwar or etc etc.

Still India is a big place....and as the street conmen say after they pay a small fine for selling crap jewellaryor perfume on the street, 'There will always be other mugs which will come along.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:12:55 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Kelly, any time you want to talk Indian premies
Message:

just say so. I know that you know what you're talking about.

You said: ''Rawfat is there right now attending eight different events. Some of them for the first time outside of Delhi. This is a new departure, they have been working on this for the last few years. Whole families are receiving K, it is becoming acceptable and respectable...''

Are the events still all in Uttar Pradesh and Nepal or is he going to Punjab and Gujerat? Whole families have always come at the same time in S Africa too and it is more than respectable. It is the equivalent of the Protestant Anglican church versus the Catholic Latin-American church. Rawfat is definitely the urug for the middle-classes.

You said: ''...although I go along to some extent with Conlon and his theory of bhakti juju for the Hindu peasant classes. There is more to it than that... Not least the fact that there is quite a substantial Sikh following. I met and know many very well educated and intelligent Indian premies. They are among the nicest people I have ever known. The trouble is the simpler folk are very impressed by all the techno tricks.''

Anyone else who has spent time with Indian premies will know that your assessment is very accurate. When I wrote about the bhakti juju and the peasant classes I was over-simplifying. Capt Rawat's followers are mostly vaisyas not sudras. And even more so in the diaspora. I tend to think of the European premies as if they are brahmins which, because of their intellectuality, they seem to be. Compared with them the Indian premies are more ''peasant-like,'' more old-fashioned and conservative but they are definitely educated and intelligent and the nicest people.

I was interested to hear that there are so many Sikh premies in India. None in S Africa. But there has always been the Punjab connection. Was Shri Hans' family from the Punjab? Singh Rawat? DLM is pure Beas cult offshoot.

90% of the premies in the diaspora are vaisyas from Gujerat (next to Punjab.) Gujerati mahatmas brought K to S Africa in the 60s. If they still send as much money to the urug as they used to when I was cc in Durban then the urug still has a big cash income. The Indians outside of India are usually richer than their cousins back home. The ex-pat Indians will probably all have satellite dishes soon and their kids will be looking at this site.

I hope that patchouli oil doesn't make you go inactive again.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:33:12 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Kelly, any time you want to talk Indian premies
Message:

Hi Pat, just a quick response to your interesting post.I'm not sure of all the venues, but he is definitely going to Hyderabad, which is way down south. Almost Tamil country? He also has a large following in Shri Lanka.
Of the two main events he does in India each year, one is Hans Jayanti or Dad's birthday, the other is Vaisaki or Baisaki which is predominately a Sikh festival.

I am still going through some of the initial stages of emerging from the cult trance, which I liken to a cross between a divorce and a bereavement. I am experiencing a great sense of loss, in part focused on all those lovely indian premie friends i will not be seeing again. Not close friends you understand, but there was/is such a bond of love and delight in their company. I have spent many months in their company in the last few years. I feel the same about the western premies too,(well some of them anyway!) I slightly mourn the loss of community. There are so many premies, not close friends, but people I really enjoyed meeting up with at events, that I am going to miss. God, I'm getting maudlin!! But Hey Ho!..I will not be tempted back into colluding in the delusion.

Gone on a bit, haven't I?
Love Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:01:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Kelly, initial stages of exit
Message:

Me too. But hopefully you'll have fun at Brit Latvian Night and make new friends. I got K in UK and still haven't told some premies whom I've know for 30 years that I have parted compnay with the perfect master. We formed our friendships in our impressionable 20s when friendships seemed so much more passionate and lasting and we have grown old together. I will be sad if they become afraid of me as some premie friends here in the US have.

I guess it's not worth talking about the Indians on FV. I've tried but they are two different worlds. I guess Rawat will make inroads into Tamil Naidu and Sri Lanka via the relatives of the Tamil diaspora who are now getting K. I'm not into knocking their belief systems. Maharaj Jism seems to suit them and they are so civilized and kind.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:40:05 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Kelly, initial stages of exit
Message:

Hi Pat,
Fortunately I do have and have always had many non/never been premie friends. But i've gotta admit I'm seriously worried about some of these ex-premies, especially the Latvians. Have you ever met any? Would you share a room with one? Do you think this would a wise move for a tender new ex like me?

By the way, you really have me puzzled, i thought you said you left 20 years ago? but you've been sort of hedging your bets by paying your dues all this time?

Guess what? I got a thank you card today, from Elan Vital, with a beootiful picture of Rawfat. I cancelled my standing order the minute i woke up, but i guess they're just thanking me for all my contributions over the last year. What a smuck! Not a penny more.
And count me in for any lawsuit to recover any money given under false pretenses.

Not so maudlin now! up yours Rawfat!

All the best to you
love Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:02:46 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Kelly
Subject: Hey, I read that!
Message:

Hi Kelly. I am very well behaved. Ask Anth. I stayed at his house two different times, and he and his wife say that I can come back if I want.

I also read your post the other day, asking me if I would be wearing 'Eau de Lingus' when I arrived in London. Geez Kelly, that sounds like something I say to my husband in the middle of the night!

Give me a ring later today to discuss plans. I've got some more info.

Love, Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:57:19 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hey, you can still read after all that Air Lingus
Message:

Night flying?!! What sort of a Latvian are you? I'm telling you , you will have to drop these strange practices. When in Bohemia behave as Bohemians do. Otherwise you will not be allowed into my particular flying club...! I'm dreading it already. I had a nice sweet cosy life as a premie...and just look at me now!
I bet you snore as well.
Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:15:06 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Kelly, on the nose- hedging my bets
Message:

But also my experiences with the Indian premies made me think of the urug in their way - a preacher and not to expect too much from him. Also I enjoyed the yoga and thought it was good for people.

I still think the urug's a preacher (the Billy Graham of yoga) but a greedy preacher and I'm not sure the yoga is worth much without the juju. I still enjoy it but would never dream of telling others that it is the be all and end all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:59:17 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: From a Latvian - Don't Worry (hee, hee)
Message:

Kelly,

The Latvian night on March 10th will be a gentle affair. Just a few drinks, a bit of chit-chat and then, tired but happy, we go home. Those pictures from Jean-Michel on this site of the last London Latvian night were all posed - none of us were drunk, even at 3 in the morning.

BTW - Isn't it about time we decided where we are meeting?

John the Real Latvian living in Latvia.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:09:16 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: From a Latvian - Don't Worry (hee, hee)
Message:

You mean to say we aint even gotta venue yet? This is going from bad to worse. I used to know a good drinking club...actually I have just thought of a good possibility. My friend is chairman of this particular club in Chelsea. I'll check it out. good food too. You could maybe pretend to be a Bohemian??
Love Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:18:48 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: The Venue - March 10th
Message:

Kelly,

I've been in touch with Marianne about this. The Latvian club has been closed for about 8 months for renovations. But due to politics within the UK Latvian organisation, the previous manager resigned in November, and they haven't found a replacement yet. The club is supposed to be opening about now, and I keep checking up, but it's getting close to the time for finding another venue, so any suggestions are welcome.

But don't worry, it will happen:-)

John the got drunk in many pubs in London

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:52:17 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Die as poor as ...I love it!
Message:

Thanks for your view of this, Kelly. It may be that like Raj Neesh, he will leave the US at some point (possibly hounded by the IRS or just plain lack of interest), but I do believe he will possibly have a home in India. Of course, he seemed to have been using the Westerners to bankroll his propagation efforts worldwide, so I don't know where he will get his dough. Of course, it's cheaper to live over there than it is to live here.

From the little I know, Hindu bhakti seems to be as old as the hills there, and that's probably where it belongs. In some ways, it is way less harmful for the Indians than it is for us. There is a certain aspect of all religion that is merely cultural, and for many does not go exceptionally deep into the psyche. I remember seeing those early films of Rawfat riding an elephant, etc., and people half out of their minds at near riot pitch in the streets.

I do know that some of my friends that have gone to India to Tibetan Buddhist events report much the same thing. Total insanity at major public events, with folks acting like the Rinpoches are rock stars. Total religious frenzy in which adults and children are trampled and killed.

When we Westerners try to make some of these foreign dishes in the kitchens of our minds, we poison ourselves with some of the exotic flavors, and make fools of ourselves in the bargain.

At this phase of my personal development, devotion to ANY guru gives me the absolute willies.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:07:30 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Hindu hyperbole and over-emotionalism
Message:

For the Indians in Durban the gooroo was a ''preacher man'' like Billy Graham and they would also go see the latest swami from India.

The bhakti stuff is revivalist charismatic evangelical yoga for them and they express themselves so hyperbolically because they are very emotional and excitable people.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:19:26 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: OMIGHODDD - did I say 'minorites'? oops. sorry. nt
Message:

deep doo doo

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

 

Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 19:02:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:

You know, many of us posting here are of a 'certain' age.

Many of us got ourselves involved (by hook or by crook, maybe both) with the Maha when we were in our late teens or early twenties.

I wonder what the average age of yer average aspirant is these days?

Anyway, I had a point to make (memory don't fail me now)

Ah yes - a good 'un, I think.

Unlike the premies of the 70s (maybe 80s too, I don't know since I wasn't around after about '76), today's aspirants don't get the heavy messianic trip laid on them. These days, the meditation and the focus on its 'teacher' are portrayed as much more regular, socially acceptable pursuits. You don't have to believe M is the Saviour any more, (as long as you keep 'involved', feel 'gratitude' and keep yourself 'synchronised' - whatever that's currently supposed to mean ... at the third stroke, I will be experiencing another premonition/deja vu whose existence will be accredited to Maharaji ...???).

Well, I guess so-called 'magical thinking' still goes on in premie-land.

The point is, though today's aspirants might find it very hard to relate to the Maharaj Ji that we (70s premies) knew, nevertheless, although the conditioning/programming is less obvious or blatant these days, they are still allowing their minds, psyches, souls, ... whatever you want to call their inner core of self-identity - to be influenced by a man who has a history of being a decidedly suspect manipulator of human minds and hearts.

No wonder the Maha went to such lengths to try and recall all the literature about him. The very fact that he used such methods in the past is a liability for him and his current attempts to insinuate himself into the lives of today's 'seekers'.

Surely he must realise how transparent his approach is, with all the ever-so subtle (I think not) references to the need for 'gratitude' and the dependency on the 'master' that he keeps pushing.

A simple expose of his history should be enough to make people aware that there is, indeed, a very real risk to run when encountering Maharaji. His reputation precedes him, and the very fact he tried to destroy his past has to be indicative that he is not a man to trust. Especially since his current propaganda harps on incessantly about 'gratitude', the 'heart', the need for a 'master', etc. It's the same old game with new buzz-words.

Surely it can only be ignorance of his history that allows people to become involved with him these days? Or are there only the old die-hard premies left? (i.e. the ones who made a committment to him as their own personal 'saviour' - and haven't the willpower to question that decision).

The question I want to ask is: how on earth do people STILL get hooked in this day and age?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:56:10 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The common garden vegetable
Message:

and new hybrid.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:13:35 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:

Hi cq & everyone

I'm a new ex and I was a local aspirants contact (which I am now deeply ashamed of, because I helped some people come to you know who) but to answer your qusestions; 'I wonder what the average age of yer average aspirant is these days?' and 'how on earth do people STILL get hooked in this day and age?'. The averagee age is about 30+ although I know some young people are still being hooked but I thing the young are a lot less gullible than I was. For myself I was a very gullible 27 when I got sucked in and I am now a grey heaired 40 year old. As to how do people still get hooked I think it is because M is still playing on peoples hopes and dreams that he has the answer. But the good news is that aspirants are very thin on the ground at the moment and the once that do get knowledge do not stay around for all that long.

Hope to write more soon,
Kev

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 19:46:20 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:

Thanks for the info, Kevin

I'd like to say that it's good to see you've taken the plunge and started posting here. The more feedback and insight into the many varieties of 'life with knowledge - and its consequences' that are posted here can only help. Your input is valuable - not only does it give you an outlet for expressing all manner of feelings and thoughts that would have been inexpressible in premie circles, but it also keeps us 'oldies' up-to-date with the more recent methods of how the Maha (my own particular nick-name for Maharaji - though you'll come across plenty of others) is still promoting the dependency-cult that continues to put him (and not the need to practise knowledge) at the forefront of premies' thoughts.

I'd also like to say that there's no need to feel ashamed for having been instrumental in persuading other people to get involved with M.

But if that's what you feel, then there's no doubt you'll have to deal with those feelings for yourself.

I'm sure I was instrumental in leading quite a few others towards the Maha, but there's no way I feel bad or guilty about it now. Remember that blaming ourselves was always a strong motif in premie-land. Just another manipulatory technique to divert the responsibility from the so-called 'master', if you ask me.

We were all caught up in a scam that was not, repeat NOT, designed to encourage personal self-examination. Strange, isn't it? You'd think that would be one of the major reasons for getting mixed up in a trip like this. But honest self-examination is in fact the opposite of what M thrives on. He profits from putting doubts aside and trusting blindly in an authority figure that he does his best (though his best is pretty abysmal) to emulate.

We bought into it, yes. But now that we've taken responsibility for buying OUT of it, then let's hope that our experience can be of use to those who have yet to find their way out of the maze that is 'devotion' (whatever that's called now) to the Maha.

Best,

Chris

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 04:43:29 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: welcome kev-welcome to F5 and to your real self
Message:

i always light up when i see a new person speak up and make themselves known. you are absolutely welcome here, and unlike a certain other arena we all know too well, you can say whatever the hell you think here, and damn the torpedoes! if any smarmy church ladies try to wheedle you around to a point of view here, other than your own true one, kick em in the ass!! as JFK used to say, 'with vigah'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 01:23:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:

Hi Kev,

I got people hooked as well. I think a lot of us did, so don't feel bad about that, it happened to just about everybody. One thing I saw was that even 20 years ago, all the people I hooked in left a long time before I did.

One wonders what it might be to hold people in these days. Most people I knew, including myself, stayed out of fear, mostly. We were afraid that the things that Maharaji said would happen to us would, and/or that we would miss out on serving the living Perfect Master and seeing his divine and perfect plan unfold. It was a crock, but fear is very motivating, or in this case, imprisoning.

I have a question though about how an 'aspirant' would even hear about knowledge. Connie said it as mostly kids of premies, and significant others of premies. Was that your experience as well?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 20:02:33 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:

Hi Joe & everybody else who has made me feel so welcome,

It is so refreshing actually get a reply, unlike some other sites we all know and hate. In answer to your question 'how an 'aspirant' would even hear about knowledge. Connie said it as mostly kids of premies, and significant others of premies. Was that your experience as well?' Yes Connie is right, a lot of the new aspirants are kids of premies (and so continuing the chain of abuse) and sometimes sighificant other of premies. As to how other hear about it, thankfully there are not many new people who come to k from friends and acquaintance now. I think they (the premies) are all too embarrassed to tell any one they have K (I know I was).

God why did I stay in for so long?

love kev

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 14:14:21 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Dear Joe, I mentioned friends also.......nt
Message:

gggbbb

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 00:03:26 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:

Hi Kev,
good to hear from you...do you know? one of the final straws for me was because I had a real live aspirant on my hands...I too was local aspirant contact..but nobody ever contacted me!!! one day, a childhood friend came back into my life...and she was searching...she was going through a bad time and she really needed something...So guess what, I showed her a video...My theory now, is that, if you haven't heard anything like this before and you are in a desperate state...it must sound amazing. She said she had never heard anything like it...and to cut a long story short, she became very interested in getting k. This was an interesting experience for me too because I went along to a few special meetings with her. Where almost none of her questions were answered!! So it was left to me to explain to her....and Boy was she a demanding questioner.. For some reason she couldn't just accept that she should watch certain videos...and not any others..that the whole thing was a secret anyway.. God, she was stupid!! Fortunately, I never subscribed to that bullshit command of M's that we should not talk about it...so I tried my best to explain to her why she had to go through this process...and, in the end...as the light dawned..I had to tell her. (the responsibility is what cracked it for me, I couldn't carry on)

When I finally told her that I could no longer recommend that she recieve K...She was shocked, but also relieved, because she told me that although she really wanted K and she wanted to know how to meditate, she really found M hard to take!! She was prepared to go through the process just to get k....but she also knew that she would probably have been turned down.

So, anyway, I showed her this site, and she was fascinated by the aspirant stories, like Danianne's. She read about the techs, and asked me a few questions...so I showed her !!!what she wanted to know. This weekend, while we are celebrating Latvian Night, she is going off to a meditation retreat somewhere in Wales. I am so pleased for her, because I'm sure she will get a lot out of it. Not least because she will have contact with real live human beings...Not some DVD Cd or Video/satellite Auto Knowledge link-up.
What a load of rubbish!
Wishing you all the best, and with love,
Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 02:19:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: The not so common or garden ex-premie
Message:

Kelly,

I read this story of yours when you posted it before but this time there is more detail and it is a GOOD story. Keep it. I am going to post a new thread soon suggesting that people keep their stories not just for their Journeys but as pieces to be included in an anthology of ex-premies anecdotes to be published in book form. We can settle the minds of thousands of ex-premies and un-premies and others who have suffered at the bratguru's hands, wrap up the sordid tale and make a few bucks back from our poor investment.

It also proves my hunch that a good story can always be retold especially here where there are new arrivals daily it seems.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:50:45 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: The common or garden premie - then and now
Message:

Hi kev

Welcome and thanks for posting.

My observation is that the few that do stay around generally fall into two categories:

children of involved pwks.
friends/girlfriends/boyfriends/spouses of involved pwks.

What do you think?

I agree with you that today in the west, hardly anyone takes k, those that do, with few exceptions, don't hang around.

I didn't know what m meant when he said in the beginning of the year that there were 90,000 aspirants around the world. I think he said there were 40,000 in India. Where are the other 50,000? Certainly not in the west. Why would he say this?

Is there a country that no one but him knows about?

What I find unsettling is no one seems to mind these gross exaggerations, no one bats an eyelid or even questions it. Does this mean no one really listens to him, in regards to what is coming out of his mouth?

If one mentions the inconsistencies, you are labelled a complainer (not team player), but never given a satisfactory answer to your concern.

Very disturbing!

Hope you keep posting.

Thanks
C

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 02:13:23 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: The common or garden ex-premie
Message:

Hi Connie,

You said to Kelly: ''I agree with you that today in the west, hardly anyone takes k, those that do, with few exceptions, don't hang around.''

What the hell kept you and Kelly and Postie and Brian Smith and Charles and Kev and me around until now? It was over the moment guys like us stopped giving money and started posting here. It may continue among the Indians and he will probably one day be famous as the Jim Bakker of India (the guy who built the largest Christian satellite network in history in the USA.)

You continued: ''I didn't know what m meant when he said in the beginning of the year that there were 90,000 aspirants around the world. I think he said there were 40,000 in India. Where are the other 50,000? Certainly not in the west. Why would he say this? Is there a country that no one but him knows about?''

That really got me thinking. Like you, I see that propagation is finished in the west but I always believed the Indian statistics till now when I read your post. When you broke it down into 40 and 50 thousand a big penny dropped.

Having been born and raised in a city with the largest concentration of Indians outside of India I am obviously interested in the Indian diaspora and know a fair amount about it. If you count all the Indian population of South Africa, East Africa, Britain, USA, Fiji, Mauritius, La Reunion or any other country with a community of Indian ex-pats, it comes to 25 million (yes, they're the largest diaspora after the Chinese.)

The Indian population of South Africa is about one million and there are 500 Indian premies. That means that there are 12,500 premies in the rest of the diaspora and 12,000 in India. (Remember that k has been in S Africa since Hans sent the first mahatmas in the 60s.) His figures are inflated with typical Hindu hyperbole and his own brand of Walter Mittyism.

Many of the socalled ''premies'' in India are not particular about which guru is having a bash and go along for the vibe and the food and lately the water. Rev Rawat recently boasted how the Indian premies came for the ''good water.'' They may have k but, like the vast majority of premies, they stick around only insofar as it suits them. I guess I was a real sucker.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 13:53:45 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: The common or garden ex-premie
Message:

Hi Pat

You said:

'What the hell kept you and Kelly and Postie and Brian Smith and Charles and Kev and me around until now?'

Good question.

The answer for me is simple.

My belief that m was THE MASTER and my role in life was to serve him and follow his direction.

That through doing what he said, Participation (Service), keeping in touch (Satsang) and Practice (Meditation), I would have a heart full of gratitude (devotion) and be synchronized (follow Agya), enabling me to grow and evolve as a human being and realize my full potential (enjoy myself).

From being an example, other human beings would be touched and maybe the thirst in them would be awoken/recognised, and I could point them in the right direction (Video events).

MOST IMPORTANTLY BECAUSE I WHOLEHEARTEDLY BELIEVED M LOVED AND CARED, IN THE TRUEST SENSE, ABOUT ME AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS FOLLOWERS (PREMIES), WITH ONLY OUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART.

Today, these beliefs are totally shattered, due to the growing conviction that something was seriously wrong and the info presented on this website.

C

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 06:34:30 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Welcome kev and one point about us oldtimers
Message:

Pat Conlon wrote:' What the hell kept you and Kelly and Postie and Brian Smith and Charles and Kev and me around until now?'

Well in my case, I quit practicing K in about 1987, went to a couple of programs in Miami then didn't see M or meditate for 7 more years. Then I went to a K review and and got a nice buzz, went to Long Beach in maybe 1994 or so. So even though I wasn't around, I hadn't really left either.

Like the village Indians who come to events 'for the water', I went to Long Beach events for a couple of years for the nostalgia. For me that was the only reason I went. Old habits die slowly, even afer seven years of 'abstinance'. To be honest, I had to ignore all of the poetry videos and the devotional aids in the divine mall and the lip synch music (I know it's not really lip synched but not far from it). And Maharaji's talks have always put me in a coma - even the videos. So, my take on the oldtimers is they only come for the nostalgia but after awhile, it's difficult to excuse it all away for the sake of a nostalgia buzz.

Postie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 23:25:53 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: Welcome Kev and thanks for your post
Message:

The new exes, like me and you, are almost beginning to outnumber the old-timers.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 20:21:50 (GMT)
From: Charles S.
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: cq
Subject: ''Satsang'' by new premies now...
Message:

cq asked:

The question I want to ask is: how on earth do people STILL get hooked in this day and age?

Before we made our final break, there was a video circulating for aspirants. It was excerpts of statements made by people who recently recieved Knowlege. It probably did more for propagation than anything M. has said in years. It was almost like allowing premies to give ''satsang'' again.

One of the people, a young, charming, beautiful red-headed English woman, was especially enchanting. She had been recovering from a serious illness, when one of the people who had been giving her physical therapy, told her about M. and K. She then described the entire process of how she came to recieve Knowledge, practicing it afterwards, and how she feels now. The entire process sounded very simple and comfortable. A charming story from a charming young lady.

She said, among other things, that she simply thought of Maharaji as one of many teachers she has had in her life. Current aspirants are encouraged to think this. Their experiance is nothing like the cult of the 1970's. M. is this wonderfully touchy-feely, new age ''Teacher/Master'' who travels the entire world, ''teaching'' out of the goodness of his heart.

I found it quite suprising that aspirants are being encouraged to think of him as a ''teacher'', as M. has so often insisted that he is much more than a mere teacher. I think it starts off as ''teacher'', then it's explained that he is a ''special teacher'', and that that is, in fact, what a ''Master'' is... all very subtle, so as not to scare new people away.

I think the point is to get you hooked on having a nice meditaton experience, and get you to enjoy M's videos, then subliminally increase the ju ju, to encourage the new premie to associate their good feelings with M., till they start to relate to HIM as the actual source, as more than just a mere teacher (by constant insinuation, not actually stating that), till they start to feel they can't continue without him. Till they become dependent.

I would question how much this actually works, since we don't seem to have a lot of new premies around. I think the new people may be more open to new information, and since they don't start out with the realization of M. as GOD, but merely a teacher, they probably find it easier to walk away, or even continue to do the meditation without him. Especially if they are asked to become more involved, and cough up time and money. And if they happen to find EPO on the internet, imagine what they must think? ''Oops... I didn't know THAT!''

I'm sure M. must often think, ''If only I could wipe out the past...'' He sure seems to be trying to.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:51:55 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Charles S.
Subject: like co-dependents of the reinvented 'New Nixon'nt
Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index