Steve Quint -:- CAC And Recent Exes Forum -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:03:35 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- 'Terrorism' is a bit strong -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:00:50 (EDT)

__ JohnT -:- deeply offended and hurt -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 14:46:51 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Stuff and nonsense -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 04:25:01 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Of course CAC scared me, Steve -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:29:15 (EDT)

__ Francesca -:- CAC shook me up too -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:12:35 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Only female CAC victim -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:33:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ Dermot -:- I understand, Marianne... -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:14:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deborah -:- You go! Marianne -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:18:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Go Marianne! -:- Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:07:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Peoples Temple, EV and CAC -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:38:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Absolutely ''BEST OF'' -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:35:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca ~) -:- ***BEST OF FORUM!!!*** -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:47:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- That's what I said -:- Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:23:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Raven -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 10:19:05 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ^^^^My post^^^sorry... [nt] -:- Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:21:15 (EDT)

Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:03:35 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: CAC And Recent Exes Forum
Message:

Does the Recent Exes Forum predate the CAC fiasco? If not, then maybe some people are afraid to be public with CAC-like repercussions possible. In my case, the CAC affair shook me up quite a bit. It is pro-Maharaji terrorism, isn't it? Anybody else shaken up by CAC or is it just me?

Steve

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:00:50 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: 'Terrorism' is a bit strong
Message:

Steve,

RE did predate CAC although I wouldn't be surprised if more people took an interest in it because of CAC. Without saying more, I do want to say that if I owned stock in CAC this would be a good time to sell.

Don't ask!

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 14:46:51 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: deeply offended and hurt
Message:

Although I had no right to expect a mention, of course, compared to those illustrious and noble lovers of truth who were targeted.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 04:25:01 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Stuff and nonsense
Message:

I didn't mind being portrayed as a mentally deranged pervert who is in the adult entertainment business - all of that is true. What appalled me was that my young daughter was put on the CAC site.

I therefore abandoned all of my ex-premie web sites. There are others who can do that job. Now I just stick to humour and nonsense. I advise other people to partake in such therapy.

.. Dave


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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 03:29:15 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Of course CAC scared me, Steve
Message:

My blood pressure shot through the roof and I had terrible tension headaches and ugly negative paranoid thoughts. Because my business address and phone number were published, my business was the target of a few harmless but costly hoaxes as well as three anonymous very damaging criticisms on a local public website about restaurants.

But I've been bullied all my life. From the age of six, bullies waited outside the school gates to beat me up every afternoon. I was very small and effeminate for my age. After many broken teeth, cut lips and black-eyes I took up boxing for which I won a cup when I was ten. The bullies were always taken by surprise when this little sissy gave them worse than they got.

After a while your reputation protects you and you don't have to resort to force. If you have a reputation for being fearless, only strangers or people who do not understand you will pick on you. Of course, nowadays I believe that the pen is mightier than the boxing glove.

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:12:35 (EDT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: CAC shook me up too
Message:

Dear Steve,

CAC shook me up too. I was shook up enough that I swore I would no longer post on public ex-premie Forums. I just have too big a mouth to stay quiet for too long. I would lurk and nibble and jumped right back in.

I'm not sure how long RE has been around, but it's been around WAY before CAC. There are all sorts of reasons for fear -- as many as we can each make up, I'm afraid. Rest assured you were not alone in being afraid.

The CAC victims made me braver. They didn't go running off. They're still here, for the most part.

Bests,

Francesca

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 01:33:14 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Francesca
Subject: Only female CAC victim
Message:

CAC should be an extreme source of concern. I am the only woman named on the CAC site. Most of the people named on the CAC site engaged premies in debate. I did this rarely. The only people I really fought with were Catweasel when s/he first arrived and Bjorn, because he cyberstalks Abi. I was also very critical of Valerio Pascotto and his role in dealing with Abi. I also continue to believe that Elan Vital and Maharaji are just as dangerous as Jim Jones and Peoples Temple. Perhaps those scary ideas have earned me a place on the CAC site.

The CAC site was designed to intimidate and silence the critics of Maharaji and Elan Vital. I am not afraid of the CAC authors, and their identities will not remain secret for long. My career is devoted to unmasking the identities of those who abused my clients decades ago. It has been very easy to unmask you.

I spend each day fighting to save lives. Your actions against me are quite the opposite. You will be exposed and I will defend my professional reputation, at all your expense. You really don't want to tussle with a death penalty lawyer, but unfortunately you did. I have friends and litigation assets in places you never anticipated. Ask Morgan Chu.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:14:36 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I understand, Marianne...
Message:

I mean, I couldn't imagine Maharaji going to the extremes of mass suicides or anything like that (well, I hope not anyway!..nah,no way), nevertheless It wouldn't surprise in the least that through your in-depth knowledge of the PT you saw many similarities with Maharjis organisation.

I'm pretty sure that similarities would be found in a lot more cults too. The name of the game in all the top to bottom cults of personality is 'control'. Control of people, ideas, information and of course finance.

Hope everything is hunky dory with ya...

Best Wishes

Dermot...

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:18:12 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: You go! Marianne
Message:

Maybe only one woman BUT that woman is a very powerful woman. Hee hee, CAC made a BIG mistake.

Seriously, Marianne, it surprised the heck out of me when I clicked to that page and saw your name there. They knew who you were and your credentials. What were they thinking?

())boggles the mind

Lots of love to you, and congradulations on your progress

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Date: Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 17:07:02 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Go Marianne!
Message:

First, the RE site has been running (continuously, I believe) for at least a couple of years. I posted there for a short time a long while ago. However, when I posted there I found that the subject matter were personal life issues and circumstances that would be difficult to expose here.

Second, the CAC site infuriated me because it was so offensive, full of lies, not to mention the invasion of the privacy of private citizens and Sir Dave's child. I felt a lot of evil from CAC and that lawyer from NY.

I've been reading Raven, a book about Jim Jones and The Peoples Temple. I am stunned by the parallels between the Jones cult and the Maharajism cult. Stunned and shocked. Part of the mindf**k of the Maharajism cult was the universal explanation as to why we premies were not in a cult. It was because we ''knew'' rather than believed. We had knowledge. 'K'

One thing that stands out for me about the Jones/Maharajism similarities (the part of the book I'm now reading) is that Jones's ''inner circle,'' is almost identicle to PAMs and X-Rated premies. Also, the megalomania and temperment of Jones is similar to Maharaji.

I could go on and on, but I won't. CAC picked out Marianne to be ''exposed'' on the CAC site, the only woman, and only person here who has direct experience with the aftermath of a cult mass murder. To single her out was outrageously stupid IMO.

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 22:38:00 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Peoples Temple, EV and CAC
Message:

Thanks for your kind words Cynthia and Deborah too.

I am glad that you are reading Raven, Cynthia, and seeing the amazing similarities between PT and DLM/EV. In fact, the attacks made on the ex-premies on the CAC site are a page right out of the Jim Jones/Peoples Temple playbook. I am sure you have read about how those around Jim Jones engaged in identical behavior in order to discredit people who had left PT and were making public their criticisms of Jones, the hierarchy and the church.

The premie posts we see blaming Dettmers and Donner for things that Maharaji did and/or encouraged mirrors exactly what Peoples Temple did for the few higher echelon folks who left the church. I predicted that EV would do this to Dettmers and I was right.

You see, when I left DLM in 1976, I did not go bitterly. It was hard, because I left the premie house where I lived with people I loved (and am still close to today). I was disillusioned with Maharaji over the money issue and the fact that DLM abandoned its commitment to social change. But many people I knew and loved remained involved, and I wanted to maintain those friendships. I decided that DLM and Maharaji were not for me and that was it. When I left, the whole thing seemed rather benign. I did not give it much thought once I had moved on to other things in my life, and had worked through the painful process of leaving the community.

I only began to reconsider my assessment of DLM and Maharaji when I became one of the lawyers appointed to defend Larry Layton, the former Peoples Temple member who was charged in federal court in San Francisco with conspiring to murder Congressman Leo Ryan at the airstrip outside Jonestown right before the mass suicide occurred. One of my jobs was to read all of the documents that were seized at Jonestown. These documents were a history of Peoples Temple since its inception in the middle 1950's in Indianapolis, all the way to its end in the Guyanese jungle in November, 1978. There were also thousands of hours of audio tapes made in Jonestown. Jones would get drunk and eat downers and get on the loudspeakers as people were trying to get a few hours of sleep before another sweltering day in the fields, and he would rant and rave and talk about himself, people who were there, and also the PT enemies back in the states -- people who had left the church and were trying to 'bring Jones down'. I also spent many hours interviewing people who had left the cult early on, people who escaped into the jungle the night of the mass suicide (only a few), and people who were still living in the PT community in San Francisco when the mass suicide happened in Guyana. Most chilling of all though, was listening to the Last Hour Tape, the tape made while the cyanide was handed out in Jonestown. People got up to encourage each other in their act of 'revolutionary suicide'. One woman, Christine Miller, got up and tried to talk people out of suicide. She was shouted down by many voices. I will always remember her words, 'As long as there's life, there's hope.'

The point of all of this is that I never had an ax to grind against Maharaji. I sorted out my confusion and emotional difficulties at putting behind this part of my life and went forward. But when I read about how those at the top kept damning information from those at the bottom, how those at the top jockeyed for position and favor with Jones and would do anything to maintain their position, and how Jones demanded unquestioning adoration from his followers, I then began to rethink my assessment of DLM and Maharaji. These behaviors were identical to what I had experienced in DLM. I also wondered what I would have done if I'd been asked to commit suicide for Maharaji. Those of us who received knowledge in the '70's recall that the mahatmas often insisted that an aspirant promise that s/he would cut off an arm if asked to do so by Maharaji. Suddenly, DLM no longer seemed benign.

When my involvement with the Layton trials ended in 1986, I put this issue behind me again until I found EPO in 1999. I did not develop this theory about the similarities between DLM/EV in order to make posts on the forum. I had recognized the connections years ago. I've never said that I thought Maharaji would encourage an act of mass suicide. But I do believe that the way the operation is run, from top to bottom, from the time Maharaji got to the west and til today, is strikingly similar to Peoples Temple. This seems especially true with respect to those around Maharaji. One ought to wonder about the consequences of such similarities, especially the need to demonize the critics. And if you're a PAM reading this, and you find yourself being furious with this post, well think long and hard about how your actions in covering up the truth about Maharaji and his cult are responsible for diverting the lives of countless others.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 04:35:11 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Absolutely ''BEST OF''
Message:

You said: ''I've never said that I thought Maharaji would encourage an act of mass suicide.''

I don't think anyone thinks he would do that but the behavior of those closest to him such his lawyers, spin doctors and other operatives (e.g. their manipulation of Abi and the rewriting of history on the cult websites) often seem unethical and conspiratorial.

The CAC attack on exes and the implied threats and intimidation tactics employed by anonymous cult cyberstalkers on this forum are revoltingly sociopathic enough to damn this cult in the eyes of any decent human beings.

You also said: ''...the mahatmas often insisted that an aspirant promise that s/he would cut off an arm if asked to do so by Maharaji...''

Arm? My mahatma said ''head!''

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 00:47:19 (EDT)
From: Francesca ~)
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: ***BEST OF FORUM!!!***
Message:

Dear Marianne,

You truly need to edit your Journey on EPO and add this stuff!

Also, I remember Mahatmas and premies saying 'would you cut off your head for Maharaji?' Pretty stupid, huh, in retrospect. How the flak can you cut off your own head, unless they give you a little guillotine or something??

If any PAM is reading this thread, definitely think about the facts you know concerning what Maharaji is really like. Then think about all the times you've lied and denied those facts or told them in a 'toned down' manner to cover 'his' fanny. (Or your own.) Then think about what your family and friends that are not premies would think of you and the trip you have dedicated so much to if they knew what you know about your 'master.'

Master of deceit, that's what he is.

Francesca

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Date: Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 19:23:24 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: That's what I said
Message:

Hi Cynthia,

I basically said the same thing. Only you said more. I shall have to look for that book.

Picking Marianne to 'expose'. ())boggles the mind

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 10:19:05 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Raven
Message:

Hi Deborah,

Raven wasn't the easiest book to find. My librarian couldn't locate it through the extensive intra-library loan system.

I discovered it is still a book in demand, but out of print. I found it through half.com which gave me various websites/prices, all under $20. I ended up with a brand new library bound edition, which now has margins filled with my notes.

It's definitely not easy reading, but worth it. Absolutely stunning, chilling, with more similarities to Maharaji's cult than I could ever have imagined. The authors, Tim Reiterman and John Jacobs, stated in their Preface and Acknowledgements that ''The narrative that follows is a work of fact.'' Other books were written hastily after the Jonestown tragedy, and a watered down four hour made-for-tv docu-drama was produced and aired many times. These hastily written books and movies don't hold a candle to Raven,, i.e., facts were omitted about much of Jones's deviant personality traits and behavior, as well as the struggle of many to escape his clutches. And there was the ''inner circle,'' a group of people who did anything Jones wanted them to do.

The authors said they applied the two source rule. When they couldn't find two sources, the facts written were then confirmed by Temple documentation.

Again, while it is an excellent book and I recommend it, Raven it's not the easiest read. However, now that I've gotten past the first third of the book, I can't put it down.

Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 11:21:15 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: ^^^^My post^^^sorry... [nt]
Message:

[nt]

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